Do you have a good handle on the values that guide your life and work? The character traits you admire in others and try to manifest yourself? Or do you find such talk “airy-fairy” – nebulous nonsense with no practical application to your business and your relationships? Listen in and discover how dialing into your values and treating others with kindness, dignity and respect as a result is far from airy-fairy – it’s critical to team morale (including your own) and the robustness of your bottom line. BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host and Crucible Leadership founder Warwick Fairfax discusses with cohost Gary Schneeberger seven key tactics to make sure you are not unkind in your interactions. What begins in the moorings of your values branches out into such wise pursuits as living your legacy today, serving others and a higher purpose and knowing when and how to apologize. Putting these insights into action will aid you in moving beyond your crucible … and living and leading with significance.
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Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. How do you get back from the cliff of where you’re chewing people out and you’re not treating people kindly? It’s really getting rooted in your values and it could be from a faith or philosophical tradition, but I think it’s good to ask yourself, “Well what is it I believe in?” Maybe it’s kindness, dignity, and respect. Maybe it’s honoring people, maybe it’s generosity. Maybe it’s listening to people, valuing people. We all have values that are deeply rooted. Try to understand okay, what is it I believe in? It’s easy, it may be obvious to say but when you’re running a million miles an hour, how often do you think “Gee, and what are my values? I don’t have time to think of these airy fairy ethereal philosophical things. Stuff’s got to get done.” So values, I don’t know, not everybody even knows what their values are.
Gary S:
So what about you? Do you have a good handle on the values that guide your life and work, the character traits you admire in others and try to manifest in yourself? Or do you find such talk as Warwick said, airy fairy, nebulous nonsense with no practical application to your business and your relationships?
Gary S:
Hi I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. On this week’s episode you’ll discover we hope, that dialing into your values and treating others with kindness, dignity and respect as a result is a far cry from airy fairy. It’s critical to team morale, including your own and the robustness of your bottom line. Warwick and I take a deep dive into his latest blog in which he unpacks seven key tactics to make sure you are not to use a technical business term, an unkind jerk in your interactions. What begins in the moorings of your values branches out into such wise pursuits as living your legacy today, serving others in a higher purpose and knowing when and how to apologize. Taking his seven points to heart and putting them into action will aid you in moving beyond your crucible and living and leading with significance.
Gary S:
The subject that we’re going to talk about is the subject that Warwick covers in a recent blog on his website, on the website for Crucible Leadership, crucibleleadership.com. You can find the blog. As I always say when we have these episodes, if it’s not there already, it will be there shortly. So check it out, look for the blog. If the blog is not there yet come back often and it will be there shortly. But the subject of that blog and the subject of our discussion today, here’s the headline for the blog, want to be a great leader, show people kindness, dignity, and respect. I love sort of the last line of the intro of Warwick’s blog and this’ll be our jumping off point for our conversation, but Warwick poses this question to the reader of the blog. So how do we avoid becoming an unkind jerk in a very technical, business term?
Gary S:
How do we avoid becoming an unkind jerk, or if we are somewhere on the road to becoming one, what do we do? And that’s we’re chuckling at the language there, but the reality is very true Warwick that it is not just possible but sadly comments when we’re moving along in our career that we sort of leave kindness, dignity, and respect behind in pursuit of our goals.
Warwick F:
It’s very true. I mean, life is hectic. There’s a lot of pressure. We live in very pressure filled times, divided times COVID, people working from home, everything our lives are turned upside down. And even without that as we rise in organizations, our bosses are more demanding. Typically, you get paid more, you get expected to work more. There’s no free lunch in the corporate world. And our bosses, shareholders, boards, they feel pressure. Pressure flows downhill, and it flows to wherever we are in the organization chart, be it high level, mid level, lower level. And as the pressure intensifies, the demands to get things done, we might think of ourselves as kind people that treat people with dignity and respect. But the challenge is as the pressure intensifies it’s like this stuff’s got to get done. I don’t have time for nice.
Warwick F:
It’s got to get done. If it doesn’t get done maybe people need to be chewed out a bit. It’s not a conscious thing, but it’s just we don’t operate as our best selves under intense pressure, or at least it’s much, much harder. And so it’s easy to think, “Oh I’m a kind person. I treat people with dignity and respect.” Well, maybe, maybe not, maybe not always. And so that’s why I sort of hesitated as I got into this, because those are some of my highest values. Treating people with kindness, dignity, and respect is not just the task, it’s task and people. I’d say even me I mean maybe especially me, maybe all of us. We’re going to have moments when it’s like, “Really, what just happened?” If we’re self aware enough, if we’re not then stuff happens and we don’t even realize it. So the point is that this can be all of us, especially as the pressure mounts as we rise in organizations. Yeah. It’s almost inevitable that we will have this tendency.
Gary S:
And it’s interesting that I hadn’t thought about this. We have not talked about this beforehand. I hadn’t thought about it until you just said what you said about as we rise up and pressure mounts and things can change. You’ve talked in other episodes, you’ve talked about mission drift and the dangers of mission drift, how you have this vision for what you want to do in your business, a vision for your life of significance. And as you pursue it, you can get off course. And even just a degree a day or a week, or whatever can take you pretty far from where you want to go. It’s true what you’re saying I think also about personality drift or leadership drift or kindness drift. You can think you’re going there, but you can make little compromises as you move along, as you move up that ladder, and that can lead you to a place where you go, “Oh, geez. I have become what I never wanted to become.” Right?
Warwick F:
And that’s really almost your worst nightmare. I mean, as we talk about kindness, dignity, and respect, I would term it as values. So really kind of what we’re talking about here is values drift. Mission drift is bad. Value drift feels significantly worse because values sum up what we believe in, who we think we are. We’ve talked about who we are and what sums that up and our soul in other podcasts and blogs. And so when you start drifting from your values, you start drifting from everything we think that we are and everything that’s important in life. And so when you’re not who you believe is really important to be, that’s pretty sobering. If you value treating people with dignity and you somehow demean somebody without even thinking about it, because it’s like “Look, I needed this yesterday and you’re giving it to me day to today. It’s not done right. Why did I hire you? What the heck’s going on here?”
Warwick F:
I mean I’m going to get chewed out by my boss without even saying, “Gosh, normally you do good work, but what happened?” Maybe they’d say, “Well, stuff has been tough at home. I’ve got some kids that are sick or maybe I had a death in the family.” You might not even know because you didn’t ask and you just chew them out without even thinking. Then of course found out later the full story, then you feel horrendous, but it’s very easy to treat people in a way that’s not in line with your values. Which is, it may not be soul destroying, but it’s soul damaging. Especially if you start doing that a lot. And what you don’t want to have happen, is people around the water cooler, which obviously doesn’t happen as much these days or your dinner table or parents, cousins, whatever, say you know, “I remember John, I remember Mary and they was so nice in high school and college, but I feel like they’re different now. What happened? It’s so sad.”
Warwick F:
That’s not uncommon and you don’t want to be the subject of that kind of it’s so sad conversation.
Gary S:
Right. And it’s true that it doesn’t just affect morale of folks on your team. And obviously when morale is affected, when people who work for you, who work with you don’t feel valued, feel dismissed, don’t feel like you’re treating them with kindness, dignity, and respect, their work can suffer. And your bottom line as an entrepreneur, as a leader, the bottom line of your organization can suffer as well.
Warwick F:
Right. I mean, people don’t mind working hard if they believe in the mission of the organization and they believe in the leader. At least not for a season, maybe not 24/7 but if you start not treating people well, and obviously you start moving out of alignment with the mission, people are going to start saying, “Well, what’s it all for? I don’t need this. Life’s too short. I just worked till 10, 11 o’clock for four or five days in a row to get the proposal done, and I didn’t hear a thank you. I didn’t hear a, sorry things are so tough. I didn’t hear anything. It’s like really? I just get chewed at, because I missed a paragraph somewhere or I forgot to include something and 99% of it was great. And I get chewed out for the 1%? I mean, seriously?”
Warwick F:
People who can the best and the brightest people have options. They’ll leave, they’ll say, “Forget this. Life’s too short. Let me go and work for somebody that’s a human, rather than some robotic automaton that just cares about the task. Who needs it? I’d like to work for a human, not a heartless robot.” So it absolutely can affect you.
Gary S:
Yeah. And very quickly the next transition here, we’ll get into the specifics of your blog and the point by point way that you look at how you both guard against abandoning kindness, dignity, and respect, but also how you can of course correct in the midst of it. But before we do that, one the things you hinted at it earlier when you talked about COVID. And in COVID times you said something about the water cooler and there fewer times. And I think I found this fascinating story that was just done by Harvard Business Review, in May of this year just a few months ago. And as we talk about the importance of showing kindness, respect, expressing dignity toward those on your team. This bit of advice of research wisdom from the Harvard Business Review in terms of COVID and what that’s done to make this even more important, I think is a good place for us to start or to add this in before we start getting into your point by point.
Gary S:
And this is what the HBR article said, “The transformation of the workplace into scheduled online meetings has led to another source of deprivation, the removal of serendipitous encounters.” I love that phrase. For many people hearing a colleague say, “Thank you so much,” in the hallway or a manager telling you “Great job,” after a presentation were a highlight of office life. Now, these seem like traditions from another lifetime. Here’s the takeaway point, without water cooler interactions, casual lunches and coffee breaks with colleagues, we don’t have the same opportunities for social connection as before. Without them, it can be much harder to find joy in your work. So what can we do about it? Harvard Business Review asks and you respond, even though you weren’t necessarily working off their story in your blog. And point one in your blog in talking about recapturing kindness, dignity, and respect in the workplace is to get rooted in your values. You’ve touched on that a little bit, but let’s dive a little bit-
Warwick F:
Yeah, no, I think that’s a good point. Just want to touch on what you said because it’s worthy of just noting what was in that Harvard Business Review article. I mean, what can happen is normally in the pre COVID world you might drop into somebody’s office and say, “Hey, how’s it going? How’s the weekend?” Talk about the kids maybe. I know we talked off air big NBA final you’re a Bucks fan “Hey, how’s it going?” Well, that will be a normal water cooler discussion. Key game now, you know game six but without that, you might not get to what people think is chit-chat. But as you know Chris Tuff who wrote a book, Millennial Whisperer, millennials I think even more than millennials, they want many things, but one of the things is human connection.
Warwick F:
They want purpose, but they want to feel like people care about their lives. But when you’re in the wired world that we’re in now with Zoom meetings, what have you, it’s easy to feel like hey, we just got to get stuff done. We don’t really have time for the chit chat. Hey, how the Buck’s doing. How’s the family? Because you might find out things aren’t going so well. Maybe there’s a family member that’s sick. Maybe kids are having challenges at school or on the sports field. You don’t get any of that human connection, which is part of what builds a spirit of dignity, kindness, and respect. And kind of one other thing before we get into that, the first one, where this whole blogs and podcast started is easy to think, oh other people are jerks or they’re not nice, or they don’t treat people with kindness, dignity, and respect.
Warwick F:
That other person maybe you. It’s easy to think it’s always the other guy, the other person. And so that was sort of a really, if you think about your own life, it’s sort of sobering. Don’t be so quick to accuse others of what you maybe yourself. People who live in glass houses and that whole aphorism.
Gary S:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So just really getting to that first point is, so how do you get back from the cliff of where you’re chewing people out and you’re not treating people kindly? It’s really getting rooted in your values and it could be from a faith or philosophical tradition, but I think it’s good to ask yourself, “Well, what is it I believe in?” Maybe it’s kindness, dignity, and respect. Maybe it’s honoring people, maybe it’s generosity. Maybe it’s listening to people, valuing people. We all have values that are deeply rooted. And so just try to understand, “Okay, what is it I believe in?” Because it’s easy. It may be obvious to say, but when you’re running a million miles an hour, how often do you think, “Gee, and what am I values?” It’s like, I don’t have time to think of these airy fairy ethereal philosophical things, stuff’s got to get done. So values, I don’t know. Not everybody even knows what their values are, but that’s the first point is who are you? What do you believe in? What are your values?
Gary S:
And it’s not just airy fairy. I mean, that’s a great adjective to describe it, but those values and what is at the end of acting on those values affects the bottom line. Again from this Harvard Business Review article, they write this, “Being recognized at work helps reduce employee burnout and absenteeism and improves employee wellbeing. Gallup finds year after a year in its survey of U.S. workers receiving a compliment words of recognition and praise can help individuals feel more fulfilled, boost their self-esteem, improve their self evaluations and trigger positive emotions, decades of research have shown.” So these things that emanate from your values, treating people with, going back to our three organizing construct words, kindness, dignity, and respect. Those things aren’t airy fairy in the sense that when you do that, here’s study after study, after study, after study, after study, after study, that says, “These are the things that motivate your teams to work hard for you and work well for you.”
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And a lot of people write about corporate culture and we need to improve corporate culture which sounds fuzzy, but people spend lots of time and money on it. Really another way of talking about corporate culture is what are the values of the organization? And ideally you work for an organization whose values are in line with yours. If they’re not, why are you there? Especially if it’s really out of alignment. If you value kindness, dignity, and respect and you’re in some organization that is ruthlessness, ambition and greed or something, it may not be a good fit. They might not articulate that on their mission statement or value statement, “Hey, we’re about greed and you know,” but it may be evident there. But let’s assume in there’s some kind of alignment you have to lead out of what your values are.
Warwick F:
You can’t lead out of somebody else’s value. So yeah, you want to create a positive, sustainable corporate culture where people are motivated, if people feel downtrodden and mistreated, they’re not going to work hard for you. They’re not going to give it the extra mile. They’re not going to give you that game-changing suggestion. It’s like “Why should I give this jerk that I’m working for this suggestion? It will probably just help his career. He’ll give me no credit. I mean, what’s the point? I’m just going to do my job, punch in and punch out at the end of the day. And so long as I do my job, that’s all I care about. I’m not going to go the extra mile. There’s no way. For this guy? No way.”
Gary S:
And I’m going to actually like call them out by name here. I had a boss I worked at Focus on the Family. I was the vice president of communications there. And my boss was Jim Daly, the president of the organization. And I used to say about Jim, there are some bosses that you can work for and I had worked for them in my career up until that point. There’s some bosses that you wouldn’t necessarily follow into I would say. There’s some bosses I’ve worked for I wouldn’t follow into an ice cream store if ice cream were free. But I would say I would follow Jim Daly into a burning building simply because he said, “Let’s go.” And that was all rooted in the kindness, dignity, and respect that he showed me and he showed others, and he showed the constituents of Focus On The Family. I mean, his character led to that kind of loyalty and I’d like to think led to good work out of me as I walked that out.
Warwick F:
I mean, that’s such a great example. And you think about it, wouldn’t you want your team, your employees to say what Gary just said, that they would walk into a burning building just because you asked? It’s that kind of mentality that says, “Hey, we got this bid coming up, we got this deal. There’s challenges in the marketplace. We’re really going to have to step up our game for the next few months.” You want people saying, “Great, tell me what you need me to do. I’m in. Just because of who you are, I’m in. What do I need to do? Okay, it’s not exactly my job description, but I think I can do it. No problem. What do you need me to do?” As somebody once said “The answer’s yes, what’s the question?”
Gary S:
Right. Yeah. Another way of phrasing it.
Warwick F:
And that’s what with you and Jim Daly, right? “Hey, I’m really gonna need you to step up here.” Gary, you’d say “Great. The answer’s yes. What do you need me to do?”
Gary S:
Absolutely. And it’s still like that. If I still have to, if I still have the opportunity to do something for him, I would still do it. So I would say this as we wrap up this section on values, you use the words and I love the phrase airy fairy, but really it’s Heavy Chevy, right? I mean your values, because they have impact on your bottom line, they’re not airy fairy at all. They’re Heavy Chevy.
Warwick F:
And just one thing on this, not only does it have impact on the bottom line, it has impact on your career. Okay?
Gary S:
Amen.
Warwick F:
I mean, what kind of performance approval are you to get from your boss? Well, get stuff done, but this person’s team hates him or her. Okay? They’re leaving in droves. I mean, how in the world in a sane organization, let’s assume that they’re somewhat sane and they somewhat care about the bottom line. Why would you promote that kind of person? I mean, it’s like they’re I don’t know if the word is pariah, but it’s like this, somebody that everybody runs away from. I mean, why would you promote that person? They’re a culture killer, a bottom line killer. It’s just nuts.
Gary S:
Right and even though employees right now yet aren’t talking around water coolers as much as they used to, they do text, right? Everybody’s got one of these and the same kinds of things that this boss was X, Y, and Z, or treated me this way, those conversations still take place. They just maybe don’t take place around water coolers-
Warwick F:
They can go viral, social media, you know bad news travels fast. And in the era that we live in the social media, bad news travels even faster and even louder. So, absolutely. Yep.
Gary S:
So our second point, your second point, once you get rooted in your values, a logical follow-up from that is to take an inventory, assess how well you’re doing at living according to those values. And that gets to the point that we made earlier about the potential for values drift. Here are my values. Here’s what I believe in. Here’s, what is most important to me. Now, do a deep dive on yourself and find out am I living that out every day?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. For those in businesses and organizations think of it this way, you might say, “Well, what’s our mission? How are we doing towards the mission? Let’s make it more concrete. Here’s our five-year strategic plan. How are we doing in meeting and achieving the objectives in our strategic plan?” Every vaguely well-run organization does it. Here’s the plan. Are we meeting our plan? Are we accomplishing our objectives? That’s what you do. If you don’t do that, it probably won’t be there too long. I mean, that’s just basic corporate 101 stuff. So this is pretty similar is okay you say, you have these values, well that’s great. But how are you doing living that out? Obviously you think it’s important because it sums up almost as we said, in another podcast your soul, your most deeply cherished beliefs and values, but how are you doing?
Warwick F:
And so for that you can ask coworkers, friends, family. It’s not an easy thing to, get an answer to but if you hear people say, “You know what? Fred, Mary you’ve been under a lot of stress recently and it’s just tough. Look, I get it.” That’s a nice way of saying you may be missing the mark. It’s not that hard to decode. And so you can ask the next question. So kind of what are you seeing and maybe ask for some suggestions about what can you do to be a better self? Maybe ask people for help at home or things that would reduce your stress. I mean, there are things it’s like “Well, I’m happy to help but you always tell me I’m good. I’m good. I’ve got it.” And sometimes it’s like, “I’ve not got it. I’m falling apart. I can’t do it all.”
Gary S:
One of the things that I’ve not all the time, when I first started out in my career, evaluation time was please tell me more, tell me more, tell me more of what I’m doing well because I needed that affirmation. At some point in my career I kind of know what I do well, what I always found most valuable is what are those things I can improve on? And that’s a slightly different thing than saying what I don’t do well. What can I improve on and how can I improve? And that goes to your point about asking other people, don’t just tell me what I’m not doing right. Tell me how I might be able to do that better. Tell me how what I’m doing is effecting you in a negative way and it’s affecting the company in a negative way. Those kinds of evaluations can be true lifeblood for you to sort of walk out this living by your values.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, it’s so good. I remember one of the other people we had in our podcast, Sheila Heen, she has written a book on how to receive feedback. A lot of people write books on how to give it but receive. And you’re really talking about some of the themes that she’s talked about in her book, but one of the things that relates to another thing we’ve talked about is if you get your whole sense of inner self-worth and self-esteem from your job, and somebody tells you, you’re not doing it too well, or there’s stacks of things you can improve in and that’s hard to take. And so if you want to receive feedback well and ask the question, what are areas I can improve in it, let’s say that touches on value. Well I think people are a little scared of you.
Warwick F:
One of the people we had in our podcast, Cathleen Merkel, she was in her 30s, a hard-charging driven person and her woman boss said to her, “Cathleen, you scare people.” Well, that was horrifying because she thinks of herself as a good person, which she is, but that led her to make some changes in life and a bit more balanced life, a broader perspective. So I think it’s a very good point to ask “Okay, what can I improve on?” But some self work ahead of time would be, “I need to stop getting so much of my self worth and self esteem out of my job. Because if I do, you will tend not to want to hear the feedback and you will find ways to dismiss it.” If you want to receive that feedback so that you can live in line with your values, try to start decoupling your sense of self worth from your job, if that makes sense.
Gary S:
Absolutely. It makes so much sense. It’s a perfect bridge to point number three from your blog which is, consider your legacy, right? We’ve talked many times on this show about you don’t want your legacy to be how many zeros were in your bank account. You don’t want your legacy of how you remembered to be this success, that success. I’ve shared on those podcasts the three top musical artists in their genres, Johnny Cash in country, Frank Sinatra in jazz standards and Elvis Presley in rock and roll have on their headstones zero numbers of how many gold records they had, right? Johnny Cash has a Psalm on his Frank Sinatra’s which I’ve been to says the best is yet to come at the top. Elvis he talks about being a son and a father. So this idea of considering your legacy helps you as you say, what do I want to be thought of, be remembered for? It helps you move beyond what you were just talking about. Your identity only comes from your work.
Warwick F:
Yeah, it’s such a good point. I mean, really legacy is related to values because you think that at your funeral somebody is giving you a eulogy, some family members. Afterwards they’re chatting maybe outside of church or outside the cemetery and just saying, So what do we think about … And you start talking about them, about happy memories, a variety of things that might make you laugh and cry a whole series of things. Well, what you want the conversation to be is I don’t think you want to say, “Well, they was super successful. Had the nice house, the nice car, the nice boat. They were CEO. Yeah, they were very successful.” And then there’s a pause and there’s nothing else, right? It’s like, really? For most of us, it’s like, “No, no, no, I’m more than my achievements. I’m more than my success, whether it’s business or athletic or artistic.” And you want people to say, “I love that person. They were a good person. Hey, they weren’t perfect because who of us are? But you know what, they were loving. They were kind.”
Warwick F:
That’s the kind of, basically you want people to be talking in the eulogy and in the cemetery afterwards, you want them talking about values basically. Those key memories. And so then if that’s what you want, consider living in light of that today.
Gary S:
Right. So this is too good to pass up. So as you well know, and this actually proves two points of what we’ve been talking about, what I’m about to say Warwick, and you know what I’m going to say, that’s why you’re laughing. Listeners, my father passed away at the end of May and his funeral was just this past weekend. And I have family that lives, I’m in Wisconsin, my stepmother and my step siblings live in Florida. So we did a Facebook Live streaming thing of his service. And I gave the eulogy. So point number one that we talked about the water cooler is not there, everything’s on Zoom. How do you know that the people that you work for, how can you give them encouragement?
Gary S:
Well, you watched the live stream of my dad’s memorial service Warwick, which was incredibly touching to me. And you sent me this text afterwards, which said, “It was very moving, full of moments that made you laugh in moments that made you realize what a great dad your dad was.” You later said, and this gets to the point of what you’ve just been talking about, how do you want to be remembered? It wasn’t us being able to talk graveside about it, but it was us being able to talk on text. You said this, “I never met him yet after your eulogy, I felt I know him, both his eccentricities and what made his kids so proud of him.” That there is a real time example of living for legacy. Right? My dad was a police officer and he did indeed, at his ceremony as you noted as well he received from a police honor guard in my hometown he received a folded flag. It was very moving, but that wasn’t all he was.
Gary S:
And what I tried to capture in the eulogy was the way he lived his life and the funny things he did and the kind of odd things he did and that he wasn’t perfect. And all of those that jumble of things in his 93 years that made him, him. And that’s what you’re saying when you say live with your legacy. Look at your legacy. If you’re not treating people with kindness, dignity, and respect, think about your legacy. How are you going to be remembered? Are you going to be remembered as that jerk who did that? You don’t want to be there.
Warwick F:
Just to take this one step further, because I think this is such a great example. Because again, I’m sure your dad wasn’t perfect, none of us are. But when you think of your dad’s values and what you most remember about him, that boy he really lived that. What are the two or three things you’d say that exemplify who your dad was as a person, his values and how he lived it out, would you?
Gary S:
And one of the things I said in the eulogy, and I also wrote in something that I got published about it. One was, he was not afraid to say, I love you. And many men of his generation as I said, he was 93. He could show love, but my dad put words to it. “I love you.” And he said it from the time I was in short pants and that was enormously important to my emotional wellbeing growing up in the relationships I’ve had as a child right now in my marriage in my step parenting my step kids. That was an incredible value that he had. Another one was he wasn’t perfect, but he also apologized for his imperfections.
Gary S:
And that’s I’m jumping ahead, there’s a point up ahead where you talk about that. But he was, “Okay, I’m sorry. I did it that way.” That it was a common thing that happened to him. My brother and I went to visit him in his home in Florida last January, January 2020. And it was right before the pandemic. And my brother had did something that he was very kind of ashamed of, and that wasn’t a good thing. They got into kind of a spat. And my brother then apologized and was very remorseful and my brother said, “I’m sorry I acted like a jerk basically.” And my dad said, “Stand in line, I’ve been doing it my whole life.” So it was that ability to forgive, that ability to have grace for people was another thing that was huge about him.
Gary S:
And another thing that stuck out, you asked for two or three, I’ll give you three. The other thing was, he always signed cards to me himself. So many men in particular will have their wives sign. My mom and then my stepmom would have signed dad and mom or dad and Laura, he always signed it up until the last one I got in February of this year, my 56th birthday card. He signed it at age 93. That means something. That shows that he cared enough to be pulled away from whatever he was doing and do that signature himself. So yeah, those are three things that live on in his legacy that he’s remembered for.
Warwick F:
So as we just sort of summarize this, this is such a great example. Think of the legacy of Gary’s dad, Dale Schneeberger. That wouldn’t be a bad legacy to have the fact that people feel that his family I’m sure, friends, coworkers, that he loved them. That he was willing to forgive, that he was able to apologize. Think of that. If that was your legacy, I think you’d be thinking I’ll take that. That’s pretty good. I’m more than take that. And I’m sure you would, I’m sure your siblings would, friends, any of us would. So when you think of a life well lived, I mean, he was a policeman in Wisconsin. He wasn’t CEO, but what would you rather, the CEO who’s striving for money and power and nobody liked, or Dale Schneeberger? Whose legacy would you rather have?
Warwick F:
I think any sane person would say, I’ll take Dale Schneeberger’s legacy any day over some corporate CEO who’s all about greed and power. So think about what do you want your legacy to be? And that’s a pretty good example of a life well lived. So yeah. Is that okay?
Gary S:
And I think it’s a good bridge again, you’re building great on-ramps for the next points Warwick. It’s a good bridge to the next point in your blog. And that’s number four, which is seek significance, right? The idea of a life that’s not rooted in only your achievements. Is not rooted in what you do for a living. It’s a life of significance. And I would argue and I argued that in my eulogy, which was a Herculean effort. It was 93 things about my dad. So there was a lot of stuff in there-
Warwick F:
Because he was 93.
Gary S:
Great, because he was 93. So I did one for every year. But that all adds up to significance, living a life of significance. If you live with legacy in mind, it’s almost impossible not to live a life of significance, it seems to me.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, well said. So really we talk about all the time. I mean, it’s one of the key things, maybe the theme I’d say of Crucible Leadership is as you bounce back from your crucible moments, those times of setback and failure, you want to live a life of significance. A life dedicated to serving others and fulfilling a higher purpose. What do you want your legacy to be? That is a good clue to go back to understand what does significance mean to you. And I think for most sane people, it does not involve power, money and success. Not that success is wrong. You can be successful and significant. But it’s more living in line with your values. What do you want your life to count for? What do you want to be remembered for?
Warwick F:
And really seeking significance is probably another way of saying live your legacy today. Your legacy and your values are built up of small steps of minutes and hours and days and weeks and months. It’s what you do today. We’re all going to have times where we fall short and not our best self. I mean, that happens to me regularly, even yesterday. It happens all the time to me that we’re not as, hopefully not all the time, but not more often than I would like that I’m not living in light of my values and yeah, I’m sorry I blew that. Forgive me. One of the things I find is apologizing, and we’ll talk about this in a couple of points, apologizing to our husband or wife is one thing. Apologizing to your kids, somehow that’s harder, but I’ve done it.
Warwick F:
And it’s like grit my teeth and you know what, I’m going to do it. And it does get easier and fortunately they show grace, which is a beautiful thing. But you want to live in light of your legacy. You want to seek significance because at the end of the day, we’re only here for a breath. I mean in terms of millennia, we’ll live 70, 80, 90, a 100 maybe if you’re lucky, but most people will never get above that. We’re here for a breadth in terms of the millennia that’s gone past and will come. You want to be remembered well, and to be remembered well, you’ve got to seek significance at least in our opinion.
Gary S:
Again, we haven’t talked about this beforehand, but as you’ve just said that and it says from your blog you wrote “Success is illusory and can be temporary.” So true significance. But someone who fits the bill of someone who had both success, grand success, but lived with significance is someone you know of very well. And that’s your great, great grandfather John Fairfax, the founder of the family media company. Right at the end of his life. What was he most remembered for? In your book right here, Crucible Leadership coming out on October 19th in your book you talk about the way that his employees, because of the way he treated them, how they were touched and moved by his death. And it wasn’t all of his grand, all the money he made and all the papers he acquired that they remembered. It was the way he treated them the way he treated people.
Warwick F:
It’s so true. Yeah. He died in like 1877. So yeah, Victorian era and his employees said “We have lost a kind and valued employer.” Okay. A kind and valued friend or something like that. It’s like, that’s not 1800s kind of talk. This isn’t the age of touchy feely. This is the age where you got a paycheck and you were happy to get a paycheck and you weren’t talking about corporate culture and all that kind of thing. It was just if you get a paycheck and can feed your family and kids and got a roof over your head, you considered yourself fortunate. Yeah, he lived his legacy. He was a person of great faith. His wife loved him dearly.
Warwick F:
His kids loved him, his employees. He was an elder at church. He built a successful business, Sydney Morning Herald, and then more than that. But he lived his legacy and as I think of his legacy, I haven’t exactly lived out the business side. Obviously as listeners would know, with the whole $2 billion takeover that didn’t work. But in terms of his faith legacy and how he treats people, you better believe that is animating and motivating for me that if I could get like 10% of how he lived his life, I would consider my life well lived because he’s as a businessman of faith, I feel like it’s almost the gold standard. It’s just awe inspiring about how he treated people and his sense of values. And I mean, there’s a lot of stories that we could go on, but he would pay people back when he didn’t have to. He was bankrupted by an unscrupulous lawyer for a story he wrote in a paper in England. Judge ruled in John Fairfax’s favor saying the story was accurate. The lawyer kept suing him and eventually bankrupted him.
Warwick F:
He goes back I don’t know, a couple decades later or something long time later, he repaid his creditors. As everybody knows, when you’re bankrupt, you don’t have to repay your creditors, you’re wiped a claim. But not only did he do that, he repaid this guy who had passed away, his widow for their court costs. I mean, who does stuff like that? That’s just to me almost nuts, but his sense of generosity and forgiveness was awe inspiring. So yeah. Great example of somebody that is living a life of significance at a level that almost seems like it’s impossible to reach, but it’s always good to have goals to aim for.
Gary S:
Absolutely. The fifth point is to serve others and serve a higher purpose. Tied a bit to the fourth point, is there anything additional you have that you kind of want to add to that?
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, one of the things I say in here, I got this from Bryan Price at Seton Hall and leads the Buccino Leadership Institute there, he was a U.S. Army and he said they have a motto which is mission first, people always. And so really, you want to accomplish the goal and obviously in the military, their mission, you don’t succeed. It’s a matter of lives and national security. But I think you can achieve the mission, but you can also serve other people. And if you don’t have a cohesive team, well you probably won’t achieve the mission. So it’s really we define significance as serving others and serving a higher purpose. So I’d say serving others I think is understandable. It’s not about you, it’s about other people, but serving a higher purpose, it could be related to your faith, some philosophical tradition, but what do you really think life’s about?
Warwick F:
And maybe it’s a faith, it’s a religion, it’s a philosophy, but whatever you think life’s about, then you want to serve that purpose. Maybe you think that the world is a place that needs to be preserved in terms of nature and the environment. And we need to have a planet that’s cleaner than the one that we grew up with. Whatever your higher purpose is, live that higher purpose today.
Gary S:
Absolutely. And that is again, so many of these points listener focus on this idea of how do you capture showing people kindness, dignity, and respect. How do you do that? There’s three or four points in a row here about the importance of significance. About the importance of those things that are not of pursuing those things that are not temporal. Pursuing those things that are not maybe headline grabbing. About pursuing those things that are investing in other people, defining a life of significance. And here’s this point that we just went through is serving others and serving a higher purpose. That is the key. If you do that, I would argue, it seems I don’t know how you can lead a life of significance and to go back to the words you used in your blog, and be a jerk to people, right?
Gary S:
I mean it’s like one will blot out the other. If you’re truly pursuing a life of significance and you’re keeping track of your values and you’re making sure you’re not engaging in values drift, I think you will end up in that life of significance. However, that does not mean we’re perfect all the time as you’ve said. And I was going to say that at least at the sixth point, sometimes you’re going to get it wrong. Sometimes your wires are going to get crossed and you’re going to be in a position where you’re going to need to apologize.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. One other thing just occurred to me on serving others, you often hear people say like, “Life’s tough right now. Competition is tough and we just need to work harder, cut some corners in the sense of I’m not treating people as well as I’d like to, but the stuff’s got to get done and I don’t have time to babysit people.” The point is, really getting back to the mission first people always don’t justify this just because times are tough. It’s COVID, the economy’s tanking. Life’s tough at home. All of which are real. Okay? Sometimes the home life can just derail us and that’s understandable. A divorce, life, tragic things happened, and it may be understandable but no matter what’s happening to you, it never justifies how you treat other people. Don’t use that as an excuse. It’s a cop-out. It’s understandable, but don’t justify whether it’s stuff happening at home or stuff happening above you, corporate goals, it does not justify demeaning people.
Warwick F:
It does not justify being nasty and unkind. Nothing ever justifies that. So quit using that as an excuse to why it’s okay to not serve others and treat them kindly. Which gets to the next point.
Gary S:
There’s a connective issue to the next point. Number six, apologize. I’d argue that’s a lost art in our culture to some degree.
Warwick F:
It is. We live in a culture whether it’s politics or business or the media entertainment double down, triple down, never apologize. Because, apologizing is a sign of weakness. Well wrong, apologizing is a sign of strength. It means you admit that you’re not perfect. You admit there are days when … I mean why is apologizing hard at times? Because we have this image of ourselves as this perfect good person. And so when you have to apologize, you have to admit maybe I’m not as nice and as good as I would like to think. Maybe I’m not living my values. Maybe I’m not perfect. And so when you have, if you have your self esteem wrapped up in your values, I mean I believe self-esteem it should be from a faith perspective wrapped up in the fact that we’re child of God or just by the fact that we’re human, we have innate sense of worth. But you’ve gotta be willing to say, you’re sorry.
Warwick F:
Here’s the sad fact is we all again blow it and make mistakes. I don’t care who you are because given a certain stress and given a certain set of circumstances, sometimes you might think it’s tailor made to set us off. Whatever you do, don’t do A, B, C, and D to me. If you do that, I might lose control and get angry or say an unkind word. We all have our trigger points. That’s going to happen, it’s inevitable. So when that happens, you’ve got to be willing to apologize, and I’m not perfect in this, but try not to do the sorry if. I’m sorry if. Especially if it comes across as well, you’re way too sensitive. I did nothing really wrong, but if you’re such a baby and are sensitive I’m sorry, if that hurt you. Hopefully if you are really a big boy or a big girl, it wouldn’t hurt you, but since you’re not, I’m sorry if. Okay.
Warwick F:
That may be what’s being received. So a full-throated unqualified apology, I’m sorry. And don’t just say, “I’m sorry.” I’m sorry for what? I’m sorry because I did A, B and C. That’s the ideal, no ifs, and be specific.
Gary S:
And to add to that, please forgive me. Right? I mean that is important to say. I’m sorry and then ask of that person, please forgive me. That is again, another act of relational humility as you’re doing that, that helps. It’s hard to do what I call a Janet Jackson apology, right? When she had her wardrobe malfunction at the Super Bowl, she said, “I’m sorry if anyone was offended.” She didn’t say, “I’m sorry I did what I did.” And that’s what she should’ve done. It’s hard to do the if apologies, if you say “Please forgive me.” When you say that it is, it’s a very humbling thing. It’s a very humbling position to put you in and you will find over and over and over again, overwhelmingly people will indeed forgive you.
Warwick F:
Yeah. It’s almost a lost art. You’re not always going to live your values, but if you’re somebody that tries to live their values and you apologize back to Gary’s metaphor of running into a burning building. You will run into a lot of burning buildings for a boss that tries to live their values, doesn’t always succeed, but when they mess up, they apologize. You’ll be like, “Sign me up. Okay? I want to work for this guy. I want to work for this woman.” So that will breed tremendous loyalty because sadly it’s so rare.
Gary S:
Right. And the connection here we go to number seven, it’s you do that and it builds great personal capital, but it can also enhance financial capital. Your point seven, treating people with kindness, dignity, and respect can enhance success. You asked the question, how can that be? And then unpack it in the blog. How can that be Warwick?
Warwick F:
Think about it, who do you want to work for? An unkind gruff take no prisoners kind of boss that will fire you in a millisecond if he can find some person that’s better than you. Could care less about you as a person, never ask about your family, about your parents. It’s all business, all work and never gives you any praise, and at the least smallest mistake, you’ve got 99 things right, you do one thing wrong and they just chew you out. People are going to leave that person. They’re going to especially those I say the best and the brightest, the people that have the most options, they’ll leave. And so yeah, you want to work for an organization whose mission you care about. You want to feel like it’s being well run and financially stable. All of those I think are a given with most employees with most team members, but a lot of things you want to work for.
Warwick F:
You want to work for a person, a vision that’s helpful, but you ask people, they want to work for somebody they respect, they admire. And a big part of respecting and admiring somebody is how they’re living their values. Are they treating people kindly? Do they listen? If your CEO happens to walk into your cubicle and just says, “Hey, how’s it going? How’s the family?” If they remember your name and ask just some personal thing, you’re like how in the world can they know who I am all the way down here in the organization? It matters a huge amount. And so those kinds of leaders, whether it’s your boss or several layers above you, that creates a culture where it’s you model for those around you how people should be treated and then others start doing that.
Warwick F:
I mean, it’s probably not a perfect analogy. I think in tennis two of the top tennis players, Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer, they always have the sense of dignity and respect for people. And you can see that affects not everybody in tennis, but there’s this culture that it tends to influence. It’s like okay, if I want to be great like especially those two. And I think probably more than that, part of that’s not just being a good tennis player, but how I treat people. Am I gracious in defeat? So yeah, that kind of thing can make an enormous difference to the bottom line and to your ability to attract good people. There’s no secrets in life. I mean, my kids from their 30 to 20s, they go on sites like Glassdoor in which basically is a website that evaluates most companies in this country and elsewhere.
Warwick F:
And it’s like, okay, so how’s the organization? How are people treated? They have rating scales. Do you want to be on Glassdoor as the company that’s like, they chew people out, they treat people horrendously, run, leave. Don’t even think about applying to this place. Information’s out there. Don’t think that you that can fool people it’s out there. So you want to be successful. You don’t want to be one of those companies to be blunt that it gets a horrendous Glassdoor rating. What’s that going to do for you? You want a good Glassdoor rating if you want to get good people. So treat people with kindness, dignity, and respect. It makes not just a business, it makes moral sense. It makes business sense. Just do it.
Gary S:
Well just do it is in addition to being a slogan of a very famous company, is also what the captain has done now with the, fasten seatbelt sign and the plane is coming down for a landing. Before we get to the landing, I want to give you a chance to kind of sum up Warwick. But I want to add one thing to our discussion that I found from that Harvard Business Review article. As we talk about listener, the importance of treating people with dignity and respect and kindness. This just leapt out at me in this business article in HBR that they found in research, the Harvard Business Review found this, giving compliments can make us even happier than receiving them. That is the if for no other reason of the things that we’ve talked about here, if personal happiness and enjoying your work and having great relationships. If that’s important to you, giving compliments, being kind, those kinds of things can make us even happier research shows, than receiving such things ourselves.
Gary S:
That to me is a pretty big point. So where do you want to leave our listeners today Warwick before we go?
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, I just want to touch on two final points. One that you just mentioned. It’s so true. One of my highest values is encouraging. I have an aphorism if you will, if you see something, say something if it’s positive. And so I’ve been on a couple of non-profit boards and if I see somebody doing a good job, I’ll say, “Thank you so much for doing X.” And I’ll be specific about why I think that was so wonderful. And yeah I don’t do it to make me feel good, but it does. When you’re living your values, you maybe begin to have a bit more respect for yourself. You say, “You know what, today was a good day. Maybe yesterday I blew it. But today I actually said something nice. I did something nice for somebody.”
Warwick F:
It does make you feel better about yourself. We’re human. We want to respect ourselves. We know when we’ve messed up. So it does. And kind of one final thing is that if you want to treat people with kindness, dignity, and respect, part of it, and we haven’t touched on it much and we don’t have time to, but I’ll just briefly mention it. You got to do some self-care. And so whether it’s exercise, running, whatever it is, or walk in nature, getting in touch with your spiritual values, prayer, whatever it is. Maybe a hobby, painting, a creative thing, whatever it takes, you want to be able to do some self care so that when you turn up at work, you can be your best self.
Warwick F:
So that is some of that stuff begins at home is take care of the relationships you value, do some of that internal weeding and self care, so that it’s easier for yourself to show off the kindness, dignity, and respect. And so apologizing is good. What’s better is minimizing the number of times you have to apologize because you’re actually living more in line with your values. And so apologizing is important, but ideally, it would be nice if you didn’t have to quite so much. You don’t want to have to say “Well, I’m good at apologizing and my family and coworkers have forgiven me 20 times today.” That’s asking a little bit too much grace, that many mistakes in one day with one person.
Warwick F:
So yeah, it’s time to live your values, live your values today. You want to be a great leader, show people kindness, dignity, and respect, live what you believe today, it will make you feel better about yourself. And you’ll actually do better at work too. So it’s a win-win.
Gary S:
Bingo. Four point landing planes on the tarmac. Bravo. Well done. We’re going to wrap up today listener with as Warwick does in all of his blogs, he leaves the reader and I’ll leave you the listener with three points of reflection on everything that we talked about here today. Point one, how well are you treating the people around you, including your friends and family. We’ve talked about this a lot in a business context, but let’s move it out of the business context as well. How well are you treating the people around you including friends and family? That’s sort of reflection number one. Reflection number two, how well do others around you think you are treating them? That’s where the rubber can meet the road, right? You may think you’re doing X, Y, and Z, and you may be doing Q, L and P, reconcile those things by reaching out, talking to other, doing either in a professional context, a 360 evaluation or a 360 kind of assessment with friends and family.
Gary S:
And then the third point of reflection is what one thing will you do this week to treat those around you with kindness, dignity, and respect? You probably, we hope you got some ideas from our conversation today. If you didn’t write them down, if they’re not sticking in your head, go back, listen to the episode again and find one thing you can do today. You can do right now. Press pause on this podcast right now and go do that thing today. Because that, as we said at the outset, what we try to do at Crucible Leadership, our goal, our mission, our vision is to give you hope and healing to move beyond your crucibles and learning the lessons from your crucibles. Applying them as you go to lead a life of significance is the way that you do that.
Gary S:
So, listener until the next time we are together, please remember that your crucible experiences are indeed difficult. We know that. Warwick knows that, he’s talked many times about his crucible experiences. But, as he’s discovered and as our guests on the show have discovered week after week, after week, we’ve brought their stories to you. Your crucible is not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of that crucible, if you apply those lessons, if you do things like we’re talking about today and treat people with dignity, kindness, and respect, it can in fact be your crucible experience. It can in fact be a rewarding time in your life. It can be not the end of your story, but the beginning of a new chapter of your story that can be the best chapter of your story. Because at the end of that chapter, the final period on the final sentence, on the final page of that chapter is one that leads you to, that brings you to a life of significance.
Are you tolerating something in your life that is leading to chaos and crisis … and causing or at least giving oxygen to the crucibles you’re facing? It could be something you’re thinking that’s tripping you up … or something someone else is doing that’s holding you back. Discover how to master your mindset from Gina L. Osborn, an Army veteran and former FBI special agent who knows firsthand that crises can be managed and chaos can be controlled even though change is inevitable. From establishing and living from your core values to creating boundaries, from calling for backup when you need it and avoiding those vision-killing tolerations … she offers practical action steps to help you chart your unique path to a life of significance.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Gina O:
We can choose to live in chaos or we can choose not to. And really what I believe is the chaos that we bring into our lives is based on what we tolerate in our lives and whether that’s relationships with our kids, with our workplaces, at home, really, if you think about, okay, even just as easy as the boxes in the garage that’s making me crazy. Every time I pull into the garage, I see those boxes and it’s weighing me down. So one toleration really isn’t that big of a deal, but when you layer these tolerations from work and home and neighbors and this and that and children and spouses, that’s when we start to become overwhelmed. So if we start with eliminating those tolerations, we’re going to have a lot more space to work with what we’re dealing with then, and keep chaos from turning into crisis.
Gary S:
So what are you tolerating in your life that may be leading to chaos and crisis and causing or at least giving oxygen to the crucibles you’re facing? It could be something you’re thinking that’s tripping you off or something someone else’s doing that’s holding you back. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. This week, Warwick and I talk with Gina L. Osborn, an army veteran and former FBI special agent who knows firsthand that crises can be managed and chaos can be controlled even though change is inevitable. From establishing and living from your core values to creating boundaries, from calling for backup when you need it and avoiding those vision killing tolerations, she offers practical action steps to help you chart your unique path to a life of significance.
Warwick F:
Well, Gina, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it. I just love what you do with helping folks, business leaders, executives navigate chaos, crisis and change. I feel like we live in the world that’s increasingly chaotic and increasingly uncertain and changing. And maybe I have a feeling things aren’t going to get more certain, they may get less certain, probably not more certain. So the need for what you do, I don’t know if it’s fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it is going to increase. So what can we do, but you’re here to help folks navigate through the chaos and uncertainty. So I love that.
Warwick F:
So before we get to some of what you do, you’ve had an amazing career in US Army Counterintelligence, the FBI, but I’d love to just start with a bit of the origin story of Gina Osborn of how you grew up. And just you had some challenges and a little bit of chaos yourself growing up, so just talk about some of that to the backstory of Gina.
Gina O:
I did. Well, I grew up in Orange County, California. And I always wanted to write, and I was very interested in being this international woman of intrigue. I wanted to go out and I wanted to be a spy. When I was in high school, I was fascinated with the CIA and the KGB and the Cold Car, everything that was going on there. And so in my second year of college, I sat down in the library of my college and a young man came up to me and started telling me about the Army’s Counterintelligence program where not only could I get this great experience, but I could go off and be a spy. And so I said, “Okay, that’s great.” And I could also get my four year degree.
Gina O:
And so the next day I went down and I enlisted. And about six months later, I was in Europe chasing spies. And it was really a great thing for me. I was always a dreamer. I grew up in a single parent alcoholic household. And so I really understood how to live in chaos and how to survive in chaos. So really going out into the uncertainty of the Counterintelligence world that really helped me out quite a bit.
Warwick F:
That’s amazing. And I have a feeling, often the seeds of gifting can emerge in challenging, chaotic situations. So I think you mentioned having a challenging upbringing and maybe an alcoholic. From what I understand, there’s a whole level of uncertainty, because who people are can be different. If they’re drinking, it’s one person, if they’re not. So what are they going to be like today? There’s a lot of uncertainty. What was your experience? Well, how would you describe maybe the chaos or the uncertainty as you grew up? How would you describe that?
Gina O:
I just remember riding my bike home from school, riding down the street and just wondering what was going to be waiting for me on the other side of the door. Sometimes it was okay. Other times it was pandemonium. So yeah, I think that really taught me how to be calm in the middle of a war zone. It also taught me how to be a chameleon, and that really helped me in my investigative life and working undercover in the Army, because I learned how to act and how to be in order to maintain some calm out of the chaos.
Warwick F:
It’s interesting. Sometimes when people go through a family where there’s uncertainty and alcoholism, it can I don’t know about destroy, but it can devastate kids. You can somehow think, and I’m not a psychologist, it’s my fault, how could it be your fault, but somehow it’s seems, and you obviously understand this better than I do, but you didn’t choose the sense of this is going to destroy me or it’s my fault. How did you choose a path of resilience and strength, because I have a feeling, not everybody chooses your path. What helped you lead you to where you are and choosing a different path? And some do, perhaps maybe that’s the wrong way to put it, but you know what I’m getting at.
Gina O:
Sure. Well, I think with me, I had a choice between being ordinary and extraordinary. And being ordinary was really something that did not sit well with me. So being extraordinary was really my only option. And I didn’t want to live and die in the scenario that I spent my teenage years in. And I wound up never drinking, never doing drugs. And that definitely helped me get into the FBI for sure. But really I think we all have choices to make and we don’t have to get into the cycle of what we grew up in. We can veer off the path and do something that’s going to be better for us. And that’s something that I chose.
Gary S:
And that’s an interesting way of expressing it, because a lot of folks who grow up in an environment like you’ve described, they’re just hoping for ordinary. Their life is anything but ordinary in a bad way. You had the courage, the vision, the hope, whatever it was, to aim beyond ordinary, to go for extraordinary. What do you think it was about your constitution that gave you that vision for that next step, that next rung?
Gina O:
Well, Gary, I was a big dreamer. And you have a choice between getting involved in all of the chaos or just dreaming about other things. And I dreamed of going to foreign countries. And I read books that took me far away. And really, again, looking for the extraordinary, looking for something that’s greater than just who I am, being part of something bigger than myself. And when I went down to the army recruiter, I had no idea that it was really going to change the path. And I was afraid to leave, because I didn’t know what was going to happen to my parent and whether or not they were going to survive me not being there, being part of the whole scenario. But that was the best thing that I could have done probably for both of us. And I was very fortunate that my alcoholic parent wound up stopping, they stopped drinking and have been sober for over 30 years. So I think it worked out for all of us.
Warwick F:
That’s awesome. So you’re in college and you’re thinking about even as you were growing up, sort of being a spy, if you will, or just it was in your mind, but it’s not like you necessarily go to say, “Hey, excuse me, I want to be a spy.” It sounds like more often than not that you’re chosen. How did that initial discussion happen? Because I know it’s a bit of a dance, but how did that happen that they found you, if you will?
Gina O:
I wanted to work for the CIA. And like I said, in my second year of college, I don’t know who this individual was, I don’t know where he came from, I had never seen him before, but he contacted me in that library and started and planted the seed. And it definitely worked.
Gary S:
That’s how secret agents work. They hangout in libraries and they find people who are reading books about that stuff.
Warwick F:
Do you ever think to yourself, “Okay, what is it about me that would make somebody approach me? What is it about me that said, boy, this person is spy material?”
Gina O:
Or he was just trying to pick me up, we don’t know.
Warwick F:
Did he ever ask you for a date?
Gina O:
He did not. He never asked me for my phone number. It was like an angel coming down, because I think of how would my life have not changed had that not happened? I don’t know. It definitely put me on a whole another path and that’s why I’m a big believer and I tell people to really listen when something, opportunity comes knocking, because you definitely want to be able to take advantage of it when you can. And I did, and it completely changed my life.
Warwick F:
And I think there’s some flexibility there that you were thinking maybe CIA, but you probably, at that point, didn’t think about, well, there’s Army and there’s Army Counterintelligence. You might not have even known about it in college. So it wouldn’t have been like, well, Army, no, I’m thinking CIA. At a college, you’re not seeing that as the same, but somehow. So, okay, this person approached you and then the next step was what you said, “Okay, well, let me check this out.” What was the next step for you that led you to that army recruiting office?
Gina O:
That was the next day. I just went down and I put on my black and white polka dotted dress and my fuchsia hat, because it was the 80s and went into that army recruiting office. And they thought I was nuts. And I took the test and I went off the charts on the test and they said, “Okay, you can qualify for this counterintelligence bit, if this is what you want to do.” And I said yes. And eight months later I was eating dirt at Fort Jackson, South Carolina in basic training. And that was the beginning of it.
Warwick F:
Wow. Sure. I don’t know quite what lessons there are, maybe be yourself. I don’t know quite what the lesson there is, but that is so amazing. So talk about that period, because that was… I think, you were in the army for six years, something like that and in part during the Cold War era. So talk about those years where you had this dream of espionage and you were doing that. So talk about those years, because not everybody comes right out of college and is doing what they’d grew up dreaming about. That doesn’t often happen.
Gina O:
Right. And I ended up only two years of college. I enlisted in the Army.
Warwick F:
Right.
Gina O:
Yes, it was. So my first assignment was in Belgium and I was at an air base outside of the Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, and I was responsible for the United States mission to NATO. And it was just a great, amazing experience working with all of these different nations that were coming together at this headquarters. And then my last three and a half years was when I was actually assigned to a team that investigated the highest profile espionage cases in the European Theater. And we were on the road probably about 10 months out of the year, undercover, doing a variety of different things. And that was the dream come true. And fortunately, I had to get my degree, because my dream was to work for the CIA. And so at midnight I’d be there in a car with my little blue suitcase writing out my term papers, trying to get my degree and I wound up getting it. And I was very fortunate with that. And I didn’t go with the CIA. I wound up with the FBI.
Warwick F:
That’s serious commitment to be espionage by day and studying by night. And clearly you were determined, you were making choices, I want to make a difference. What about this field, obviously, you were attracted to, but what made you think, I want to do this, this is important, this is what I want to spend my life doing in some sense?
Gina O:
I just being of service really I get a lot of gratification from serving my country. I’m a patriot. I really enjoyed being in the military. I love the camaraderie that came with that and that followed me into the FBI with all of these amazing people. And I wanted really to have adventures that I can write about. That was another thing that I always wanted to do was write. So just going out and getting experiences that was something that I really wanted to do. And it’s interesting. When I went into the FBI, I thought I would be going anywhere USA, because they don’t tell us before we get to the academy. And I wound up coming home. My first arrest was across the street from my high school. So I was very, very fortunate to be able to come back home and represent the FBI in my hometown.
Gary S:
And they didn’t have you go to the library and try to recruit?
Gina O:
I never had to do that.
Gary S:
Awesome.
Warwick F:
It was a different process.
Gina O:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Obviously, you mentioned service. What you were doing was saving lives, protecting our country. Obviously what you were doing was important and you felt like this isn’t just a job, it’s a mission that you feel called to do that was important. It’s not just making widgets or something. Nothing wrong with that, but you felt like this was a higher calling.
Gina O:
Definitely.
Warwick F:
There was a higher purpose in you. To me, when we talk about a life of significance, it’s using the gifts that you’ve been given for a higher purpose to serve others; you were a higher purpose, protect your country and serving others, protecting others. Your job does save lives in counter espionage, obviously. So you’re doing that for six years and had incredible experiences. And the dream was the CIA. So how did the FBI happen and not the CIA? So talk about that, because it’s still part of the mission, but it’s not quite the original high school college game plan. So talk about that whole shift.
Gina O:
Well, after the six years of doing double duty, getting my degree and getting all that experience with the military, I put in for the CIA and it was a time where the government was downsizing and I didn’t get in. So that was devastating, because I had spent all of that time with that dream in mind and I didn’t get it. So I had to sit back and I had to think about it and I had to get off my pity pot and said, “Okay, if this isn’t going to happen, then we need to find something else that’s going to really hit on all of those things that I want to do.” And I applied for the FBI and I stepped through a four year hiring freeze and I wound up getting in, in 1996.
Warwick F:
So did you have to wait to get in, because of the hiring freeze?
Gina O:
I did. So it was a hiring freeze plus another year and a half that it took for them to process me to get through all the hoops that it takes to get into the FBI. So yeah.
Warwick F:
Wow. So you had to keep yourself employed while that was happening. So that must’ve been frustrating. Did you look back and say, “I have had six years as a Counterintelligence special agent, why wouldn’t the CIA want me? I’m as qualified as anybody, qualified, more qualified than many. You probably knew friends, colleagues, and it’s like that person got in seriously and not me? I don’t know. Are they the son or daughter of the director? What’s going on here?”
Gina O:
Well, and that’s where you have to, like I said, get off the pity pot and realize that, okay… I always knew that I would be participating in something bigger than myself. I always had that belief and I had that dream. And I just had to believe that, “Okay, if the CIA isn’t where I’m supposed to be, there’s going to be something much better coming down the pike.” So sometimes when we don’t get what we want, that’s actually a gift we have to wait, because there might be something even better coming down the road. And for me, the FBI in my experience there, was just absolutely amazing. Having the opportunity to represent my agency in my hometown, I have been able to travel the world, I was able to spend time at headquarters and just work with and lead such amazing people. So yeah, it was much better I think, than what I thought was going to be my dream.
Warwick F:
So it’s funny how, again, important lesson. Sometimes we have a dream and it was still intelligence. It was just probably domestic, obviously FBI. So sometimes we have a particular idea of what that dream will be, but whether you think of it as the universe, God, some force somewhere, sometimes, I don’t know, maybe there is a power or source that knows better than we do. Or I don’t know, sometimes maybe it’s idealistic to think if things work out for the best, but do you look back and say, “You know what? Maybe I wouldn’t have chosen this path, but I’m grateful for 22 years in the FBI and it worked out.” I don’t know whether it’s for the best, but you were gratified by that experience. You didn’t feel like, “Oh boy, I lost out.” You felt fulfilled that this was worthwhile, those 22 years. Correct?
Gina O:
Right. Absolutely. And it was better than the CIA ever would have been. I had already lived outside of the country for six years and so really having the opportunity to be home, like I said. And I don’t know, it was really, really great plus I didn’t work intelligence for long. I wound up going onto work Asian organized crime and Counter-Terrorism. And then I ended up for the last 11 years working cyber. So the FBI definitely took me on a ride I never expected, but it was the best thing that ever could’ve happened.
Warwick F:
Wow, that’s amazing. So now you’re in Southern California at the moment. Is that where you worked for most of the years you’re with the FBI in that area?
Gina O:
Yes. So I was assigned to the Los Angeles Field Office for the entire 22 years. And I did 18 months during that time at FBI Headquarters in order to be able to promote into the executive ranks.
Warwick F:
So you can serve the country, but yet being near family too?
Gina O:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Warwick F:
Not everybody gets to do that.
Gina O:
All three of my roommates wound up going to New York and I got to go home. So I was very fortunate. But again, that’s where you have to just believe and listen to your gut. And even though it was devastating when I didn’t make it into the CIA, I just had to really just believe that there is a path for me, there is a place for me and long as you believe it and you can envision it, you can make it happen.
Warwick F:
And so as you look back on your 22 years in the FBI, and obviously you had a lot of amazing things you were working on, were there some lessons that you learnt as your take away, “Boy, I’m so grateful for this experience because…” What were some of those for you personally, anyway, those key takeaways that it meant so much to you?
Gina O:
When I look back on my career, what I find most gratifying, it’s not the arrests that I made. Although, I appreciate that experience. It’s not the experiences of working on task forces. Really what I am most grateful for and what I am most proud of is developing the leaders that came up behind me when I became an executive, and really teaching them the things that I knew, watching them, allowing them to make mistakes as a leader. And you don’t really get that opportunity very often, but it’s just so important for people to have that sense of security that if they make a mistake, it’s okay because that’s how we succeed is by making mistakes. So I think looking back, the people were phenomenal and still continue to be phenomenal, but I would say just having that opportunity to be a leader and develop leaders coming up behind me was really what was my legacy.
Warwick F:
And that’s so important, because often our image anyway in government, in general, is bureaucracy, play it safe, don’t make mistakes, ask for a bigger budget each year, because you use it or lose it, all of these things that people in the private sector have a view of government. But in the work that you do in the FBI, you’re always going to make mistakes. Obviously you want to limit the consequences of those mistakes. I get that. You can’t make major mistake after major mistake. There are consequences there too, but if you play it so safe, I would’ve thought ultimately lives could be in the balance. I have a hunch that there’s something about X avenue of inquiry that my gut tells me based on, I don’t know, whatever it was at the time, 10 years of experience, an informed gut instinct, put it that way. I really need to investigate this.
Warwick F:
Gina, there’s something about this that smells funny. I want to spend a week or two or whatever. I’m sure you’ve had those conversations often and it may turn out, gee, I spent two weeks and nothing came up. Well, you could say, well, you just wasted two weeks of my budget. Well, what are you thinking? You probably had a lot of those conversations, I’m guessing.
Gina O:
Well, no. When I talk about mistakes, I’m talking more of leadership mistakes. So my parameters were as long as no taxpayers’ money was spent or wasted and as long as no lives were in jeopardy at all. But it’s important for leaders to be able to make decisions and feel confident in their decisions. Even though I had a lot more experience and I saw, “Hey, this is a rabbit hole, we may not want to go down,” sometimes you have to let your leaders make these type of mistakes, minor mistakes, just to be able to learn those lessons, because I think the greatest lessons that have so much impact on us are the ones where we did make the mistakes. Those who don’t want to make mistakes, I believe, that is fear based. If you create an environment where you’re afraid to make mistakes and none of your people are allowed to make mistakes, because it’s going to reflect negatively on you, that’s not the type of environment with high morale and high productivity. So that’s something-
Warwick F:
If you’re trying micromanage your employees, because I know best, which you probably did after 10, 15 years of experience, wherever you were at the time, but if they don’t learn, they don’t grow.
Gina O:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
And eventually you won’t be there to hold their hand forever. There’ll be new managers, maybe they’ll be in your position 10, 20 years down the track. If they’re being afraid to fail, then how are they going to help their leaders?
Gina O:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
So you can’t give them 1,000 page rule book and saying, “Okay, follow all this, and before you even think of thinking, ask me first,” right?
Gina O:
And so when you do that, you take all the creativity away from these people. And I worked with cyber people who are wildly creative. And if you micromanage in that environment, and that environment is extended out to the new generation that is coming up, because they don’t want to be told what to do either, you take a lot of creativity away when you say, “Okay, go ahead and do that, but do it this way,” as opposed to, “Okay, go ahead and do that,” and if they have a way to do it that is just as good as your way, let them do it their way. Why impose the old way or the routine way of doing it? Why not let them have more creativity, because when they feel like they own the project, they’re going to want to come to work every day and the morale is going to be higher.
Gary S:
I sense that we’re about to turn a corner in a little bit and get into what you’re doing today. But I want to make sure listeners caught the import of the last five minutes of this conversation, Gina. And that is this, you said, and then you talked in telling three different stories about it. You said that as you look back at your career in the FBI, and there’s all kinds of things that happened there that you accomplished, that your team’s accomplished, that you can’t even tell us, right? True things that preserved liberty and saved lives and remove bad people, lots of stuff there. But you said the most rewarding part for you in that experience was leading your team.
Gary S:
And that is something folks who are listening, likely not in the FBI, maybe you manage a shoe store, maybe you are an entrepreneur who has a small team under you, but it’s that leadership of your team, regardless of where you’re doing it, whether it’s the global stage of espionage or it’s the local neighborhood soda shop. Those are the things that are important. And we have to remember, I think, the name of the brand that we’re representing right is Crucible Leadership. And that’s what we want to do. We want to convey leadership principles and this idea of, regardless of what you’re doing as a leader, pour into your team, because that’s where the gratification is going to come and that’s where the growth in those who are supporting you is going to come and they’re going to be able to support others down the road.
Gina O:
Absolutely. And I always surrounded myself with great teams. That was always throughout my entire career, being surrounded by great teams and choosing your teams wisely. That’s very, very important.
Warwick F:
Such a good point. So I want to talk a bit about you ended up leaving the FBI and starting your own business. I’d say work with business leaders, organization leaders, navigate chaos, crisis and change. You’ve got this great piece you put out, seven key ways to eliminate chaos from your business and your life. So talk about that decision to leave the FBI and go in a different arena, because after six years in the Army, 22 years in the FBI, that was a huge decision. So talk about that transition.
Gina O:
Sure. Yes. Well, I was eligible to retire and I had been for a couple of years. And really what I wanted to do was my childhood dream of writing. And so I’ve been writing and I’ve been writing television shows. I am working on a book, I’m working on a variety of different things, but writing and telling stories is what I really, really wanted to do. So I’ve got two different podcasts. One is a True Crime Podcast called Behind The Crime Scene. The other is called Lead Like a Lady where I interview remarkable women who have made it to the top in male dominated fields. So really I just am pursuing the other dream that I had when I was a child and going after being a storyteller and a writer and helping people along the way with my executive coaching.
Warwick F:
Boy, that is awesome. A lot of different things. So when you’re writing is one of the things like writing novels, like spy espionage novels, is that one of the strands you’re thinking of or?
Gina O:
So it’s more on the television route. And all of the shows that I am pitching are strong female leads and in law enforcement. So I’m taking the experiences that I earned over the last 28 years and I’m putting them into practice.
Warwick F:
Okay. Yeah. I love reading all those things and shows. I’m reminded of one you’re probably aware of, was it Covert Affairs. You ever saw that show? It also had a very strong female lead. Now, I’ll probalby botch this, I want to say, Piper Perabo, maybe she was the lead…
Gary S:
Wow, good job Warwick.
Gina O:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
And she didn’t fit the mold that was convince people I can do this, even though somehow she wasn’t out of the CIA recruiting manual. I don’t want to get the whole storyline. Which is great, because you want young leaders, young women leaders to say, “Hey, this could be me in espionage or just in general.” Is that would be a fair statement of part of your mission or what you feel called to at least in part?
Gina O:
Well, just empowering. I really enjoy empowering women. And I’ve worked a lot with female executives and mostly who are the only women in the room, because I was the only woman in the room so often, being a woman in law enforcement and dating back into the 80s. So yes, just taking the experiences that I have. And the reason why I chose chaos, crisis and change is just because I was presented with that, on a routine basis in law enforcement and learning how to eliminate chaos from our lives. And that’s what my eBook is about, because that’s a choice.
Gina O:
We can choose to live in chaos or we can choose not to. And really what I believe is the chaos that we bring into our lives is based on what we tolerate in our lives. And whether that’s relationships, whether that’s whatever, with our kids, with our workplaces at home, really, if you think about, okay, even just as easy as the boxes in the garage that’s making me crazy. Every time I pull into the garage, I see those boxes and it’s weighing me down. So one toleration really isn’t that big of a deal, but when you layer these tolerations from work and home and neighbors and this and that and children and spouses, that’s when we start to become overwhelmed. So if we start with eliminating those tolerations, we’re going to have a lot more space to work with what we’re dealing with then, and keep chaos from turning into crisis.
Warwick F:
Boy, it’s true. Clutter, whether it’s of your mind or home or office or tasks, it can overwhelm you and stop you thinking clearly. So it makes so much sense. So as I’m looking at the list of the things you have in the eBook you mentioned, it’s interesting the first one you mentioned is establishing core values. You talk about commit to those values daily. Talk about why that’s a good place to start in terms of eliminating chaos and creating clarity. Why is establishing core values so important?
Gina O:
Well, really knowing who you are and what type of life you want to live, that’s where we start. And then we think about priorities past that. What are the priorities right now? Because everything can’t be a priority, especially when we’re trying to eliminate the chaos from our lives. So knowing who we are and what we expect from people and setting boundaries around ourselves and teaching people how to treat us, to eliminate this conflict and chaos that’s coming at us maybe on a daily basis, that’s why it’s so important. And those are other parts in the eBook that I talk about is being able to create those boundaries and eliminating those tolerations and teaching people how we want to be treated.
Warwick F:
It’s like how do you create those boundaries and tolerations if you don’t know who you are and what your core values are.
Gina O:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
You have no way of doing that. I imagine maybe it’s not as bad as it used to be in 60s, 70s, 80s, for young women leaders. Although I’m sure it’s a bit like when we talk about racial diversity, there’s a spectrum, there’s may have been an improvement, but there’s probably a fair ways to go, I’m guessing, or at least somewhat.
Gina O:
When I entered the FBI in 1996, 14% of the agents were women. And when I left in 2018, it had only risen to 20% of the agent population were women. So it really didn’t go up all of much.
Warwick F:
That’s staggering. It’s not like objectively physical strength is so vital. Therefore, you can’t have 50, 50, I’m guessing. The number one attribute to be a good FBI agent isn’t… I’m just trying to think of some objective reason, isn’t physical strength. There’s a lot more to just… What I’m saying is there’s no real objective reason for why it should be 14 or 20%.
Gina O:
Right. Well, I think a lot of it is the average age going through the FBI Academy is 31 years old. And because it’s a second career, that’s why it’s the premier law enforcement agency in the world, because they hire the best of the best, the cream of the crop. And when I went through only 1% of all of the candidates, the applicants were actually getting into a seat at the Academy. So yes. And really I thought the FBI had hired me, because I was a woman number one and because I had all this great Counterintelligence experience, but I only worked Counterintelligence for about 15 minutes in the FBI.
Gina O:
And as I look back, what they hired me for was my problem solving skills, my ability to create relationships, my ability to network and solve problems. So really they’re looking at a person as a whole, whether you’re a zookeeper or a doctor or a lawyer, an accountant or a military person. The FBI is looking for somebody who has those things, because when 9/11 happened, the majority of us were working criminal. We weren’t working terrorism. So we had to make the shift and learn to become terrorism experts within the FBI more so than they already had. So that’s the type of people that the FBI was looking for.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. So just before we move on from core values, I would assume you want to teach young leaders, young women leaders to be in organizations that fit who you are, that respect your values, where there’s a fit. Maybe that’s obvious, but does that make some degree of sense?
Gina O:
I think it’s important for you to like where you’re working and being in a place where you’re appreciated. But I think a lot of time we are our own worst enemies when it comes to self sabotage. And as women, sometimes we feel that we have to be completely or overqualified for a job before we’ll even put in for a job. Whereas men are more likely to put in for jobs where they’re not qualified and they’ll get those jobs. So really, I think we, as women working in male dominated fields take on, well, we have to be perfect and we have to be qualified and we have to do this and we have to do that, when really these are the things that we’re putting on ourselves.
Warwick F:
You’re creating your own barriers and boundaries. I’ve read articles and studies saying that women are far less likely to ask for a raise than a man is, well, I don’t know if I deserve it kind of thing. A man will be like, “My boss may say no, but I’ve got a family to support and I think I’m worth it. And what the heck, let’s see what happens,” right?
Gina O:
Yes. And that’s why we shouldn’t allow the rules that we put on ourselves to remain. And that’s what I do when I’m working with female executives is to remove those obstacles. I have a six week executive bootcamp and it’s not for the faint of heart, let me just say. Whether you’re a man or a woman, you really need to be ready to change, because what we do is we take that obstacle that has been standing in our way for most of our lives and we remove it, but the people have to be committed to wanting to do that in order for us to be successful in this program, because I’ve been through bootcamp and I can make an experience where it feels like bootcamp, but I’m very supportive and I want to make sure that my clients get what it is that they’ve fought so hard for.
Gina O:
But removing those obstacles is so important, because if you think about the obstacles that are in your way, ask yourself, how many of these obstacles are self imposed and how many of these are actual obstacles? And if it’s through negative talk or it’s because we have this perception of some sort, I would say question it. And if it’s not real or it’s not tangible, if it’s not something that’s truly holding you back, then get through that wall. Go around it, go under it, go over it, but get through the wall.
Warwick F:
I think that I just want to just camp on this a little bit, because we talk a lot in Crucible Leadership about being authentic and whether it’s women or men. Sometimes we feel like we’ve got to be a certain person to fit within the organization. You can be who you are authentically and still be successful rather than, “Oh, what do they want me to be?” So probably not a terrific example, but I love sports as much as the next guy, but I also like history and music, and that’s not the typically let’s hang out in the pub or the bar and swap interesting history anecdotes. It’s just not the typical thing that you do necessarily from a male perspective. But it’s like, “Well, okay, I like sports, but there’s a lot of other things in life I enjoy too.” I wouldn’t say I’m an artist, but I grew up in a family that loved art and music.
Warwick F:
There’s rather than thinking, oh wow, that’s not going to go over well in this environment. My impression is FBI agents don’t sit around talking about, gee, what’s your favorite classical music composer or something. Maybe they do, but rather than saying, “Gosh, I like classical music, therefore, I better not tell anybody, because I’ll just get razzed.” It’s like silly stuff, just be yourself, whatever it is you enjoy. Does that make sense? Stop being so afraid of what everybody else thinks you should be.
Gina O:
And that’s where we as leaders, we lose our authenticity by taking on the traits of others because we want to fit in. I learned that from the very beginning, because I was trying to, being in the Army and then going into the FBI where I was definitely a minority. And I would take on the characteristics of my male counterparts and be tough and strong and this and that, but then all that caused was okay, I’m insecure because I’m not being perfect at these leadership traits that I’ve taken from other people. And I have all of these other issues that are coming up, because I’m not leading authentically.
Gina O:
And it wasn’t until I became the head of the cyber program for FBI Los Angeles, where I couldn’t lead from the front. And that was my leadership style that I had chosen for all of those years, because I had no technical skill. So that’s when I had to go back and rely on my problem solving skills and my networking and my relationship building and my compassion and my empathy. That’s who I was. And when I began leading like that, my people followed me, the morale was great, productivity was high, and I felt authentic as a leader.
Warwick F:
It’s so interesting that we’ve come across… We had a woman leader who’s from Germany, Cathleen Merkel, and she was very driven 30s successful. As she would put it too German in a way that she was really blunt strong. And she had a boss, a woman boss said, “Cathleen you actually scare people. This is a woman boss.” And it’s like, “I don’t want to scare people.” She was so task oriented. And then she just took a breath, what is it I want in life, I love my work, but I also want to have a social life. And she became, I guess, more empathetic and she was more successful. So I’m not against blunt, but it’s like you don’t want to scare people.
Gina O:
No. If you’re doing anything that’s scaring people or alienating yourself, then you may want to rethink about how you’re leading. But again, if you’re a feminine woman and you’re in a male dominated field, you can still be a feminine woman in a male dominated field, you don’t have to change who you are just to fit in. And if you think you do, then that’s one of those things that might be a self imposed limitation that you’re setting on yourself. So just evaluate that and move forward. I always was wearing the last 11 years of my career when I wasn’t out on some sort, out in the field, I was wearing high heel shoes and dresses. And I was always very, very feminine. Even when I was in the military, a lot of people didn’t even realize that I was a soldier half the time, because I was in civilian clothes. So you just have to be who you are. And if you can be who you are and be recognized in that environment, that’s a good environment for you.
Gary S:
And that’s one of the things that Crucible Leadership, and you talk about a lot Warwick, is the potency of authenticity. One of the best ways to avoid crucibles and to overcome them when you’ve had them is to default to your authentic self. Live and lead authentically. That’s one of the things that is a common thread through the guests that we have on the show. There’s an authenticity factor to it. In fact, Warwick, one of the things that you’ve said about your own crucible was that you weren’t as the media baron. That wasn’t authentically Warwick and that didn’t work out too well. So I think in the examples that you’re using, Gina, when we get off track a little bit, and we can walk into our own crucibles of our own creation, sometimes that’s living inauthentically.
Warwick F:
Yeah. You raise an excellent point. Certainly in my own life, as listeners know growing up in this 150 year old large family media business in Australia, what I thought was required was a Rupert Murdoch take-no-prisoners chief executive. And that wasn’t me. I’m basically a quiet, reserved, reflective adviser. Maybe I could have been a philosophy professor in another life. But I don’t like being upfront making decisions, I like more advising and thinking, reflecting, being part of a team. So it was a horrendous fit, fortunately maybe not financially, but fortunately it didn’t work out. And so now I actually get to do what I love doing, writing. I love writing like you and reflecting and hearing people’s stories. I love that. And it’s like, okay, so maybe I’m not this take-no-prisoners chief executive, whether that’s make sense anyway. I don’t know, but that’s just not me. And it’s okay not to be this other person. It’s not me. So I don’t want to be that other person. I just want to be me.
Gina O:
Right. And where are you happy, where you are happiest.
Warwick F:
Right, exactly. So there’s a lot of other good points. You’ve already talked about tolerations, which I think is fantastic, because they do indeed lead to anxiety and chaos. You talked about set priorities. Talk a bit about that. Okay. So you know who you are in, you know your values, but I’m guessing in light of your values, you need to set priorities. Talk about the link between values and priorities.
Gina O:
Well, I would say knowing who you are, and when you set your priorities, first, where do you want to go? Let’s create a roadmap. And that’s something that I do with my clients is creating that roadmap as to what does success look like? Because so many times we find ourselves frustrated, because we achieve a goal and yet it’s still not good enough. We have to know where exactly it is we’re going and then set priorities on how to get there. Now, if you want to get a promotion, you want to be a dad or mom, you want to learn how to play golf and you want to do all of these things, well, you’re not going to be great at any of those things. So something can’t be a priority in order for you to achieve whatever the goal is.
Gina O:
And if your number one goal is to get that promotion, it’s going to cut into your mom or dad time, it’s going to cut into your golf time. So really when you understand what the priorities are, if something comes up and it’s not on your priority list, then that’s when you say, “Okay, I’m going to have to set this aside.” And then we don’t get overwhelmed. And it doesn’t become chaotic, because we know what our roadmap looks like, we know what our priorities are. And it’s okay to say no, it’s okay not to do certain things if they’re not a priority.
Warwick F:
And what you just said again is so profound is you said earlier that we have choices and life is about choices. So rather than saying, well, you could be a young woman leader and saying, I want to be CEO or director, whatever this organization is, and I’m going to do A, B and C, and that’s great, but there are consequences to that. That could be with family, other things you want to do, balanced life. And rather than saying, I want to do something just because it should be more people in X role. Well, great. But is that what you want to do? Are you living somebody else’s vision, a group of people’s vision? Is that what you want to do? For me, totally different situation.
Warwick F:
There are a lot of Harvard Business School graduates where I got my MBA that they work in investment banking, 80, 90 hours a week and they don’t see their kids at all. And I never wanted that to be me. And so I had some flexibility and worked at a local aviation services firm. I’ve done executive coaching number of things, but it was always a priority of mine to be around my kids growing up they’re now 30 into 20s. But one of the things we do in birthdays, we say what we value about, who’s ever birthday it is, we write cards. My boys who are more athletic than my daughter, they got my wife’s genes, she’s more athletic than I am. They always say, “Dad, you’re at my soccer game, you’re at my tennis game.” Every single card for years, 10, 15 years. Years. Well, that means everything to me, because I want it.
Warwick F:
Now, I’m not saying everybody should do that. Although, I’m biased if you decide to have kids, I would say you should make a choice to spend time with them. Otherwise, don’t have kids, but then that’s my own personal value, judgment set. But does that make sense? It’s like you’ve got to, as you say, set priorities and be okay. Even if somebody’s in the other cubicle, other office is more successful than you, that’s okay if it’s because of choices as priorities you made, right? It’s not a competition. It’s about being true to who you are and your values and priorities. I know that sounds so simple, but in the real world, it’s not easy when you see somebody else that you think is less qualified, less competent, get the promotion that you thought you deserved, because you made choices that reduced the amount of hours you put in and they were doing crazy overtime stuff. Does that make sense?
Gina O:
That’s right.
Warwick F:
You got to be okay with your choices and priorities and be willing to live with them.
Gina O:
Exactly. But it’s important to know where you’re going and what success looks like.
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Gina O:
And if success is one thing, don’t be looking at somebody else and being jealous for their success, because maybe their success is completely different from your success.
Warwick F:
Exactly. Success can be financial and in terms of position in the corporate ladder or success may mean other things, be true to who that is for you. So as we wind down a little bit, you’ve got a lot of great things that you’ve talked about toleration, you talked about creating boundaries, because there’s certain, a lot of people can create chaos in our lives. And you’ve had experience with that. People aren’t always good at doing that, creating boundaries, about not accepting intolerable behavior, if I can mix points, so to speak.
Gina O:
Right. Well, if you think about a person in your life past or present that is a dysfunctional relationship and then go back to when you first met that person and how things would have been different if you would have laid out boundaries, right? So that’s why it’s so important for us, especially in our relationships is to treat people how we expect to be treated. And if we allow people to treat us in a way that we don’t want to be treated, then shame on us, because we’re not setting boundaries, we’re allowing them to do that. I have a friend in the FBI, she’s still in the FBI and she is so good at setting boundaries. And she’s not aggressive about it in any way and it’s just natural to her if she doesn’t like somebody.
Gina O:
I remember having a conversation with her, it was a heated conversation over something. And she said, “Hey, watch your tone.” And that just set me back on my heels. It’s like, oh. And it was just so easy for her to do. And she wasn’t being mean, she just didn’t appreciate the tone that I was using with her. And so now I know in the future, I’m never going to use that tone with her, because I know that she doesn’t appreciate it. So it’s just simple things like that. It doesn’t have to be confrontation all the time. It’s just an easy non confrontational, hey, watch your tone. Right? Okay, I get it.
Warwick F:
So important if you know yourself and have self respect. We all have friends who’s like don’t they have an ounce of respect for themselves don’t they think they’re valuable, they’re worthwhile. I think all human beings have innate intrinsic value and they tolerate toxic relationship, oh, he’ll change, it’ll be okay. And they’re not really like that. It’s like really, if you know them well in the situation you’re going, come on, let’s get into reality. But you can’t make other people’s choices for them. That gets harder to deal with, if they’re people, friends and family, you dearly love. That’s really challenging. But what can you do? You can only live your own life, but a lot of people are not doing that.
Gina O:
Yeah. I think eventually people will stop tolerating that once they learn whatever lesson it is. Imagine, so say you unpack and pack those boxes in the garage. And every time you go into the garage, you drive into the garage, you’re going to feel that sense of, “Oh yeah, the boxes are unpacked. Oh, the leaky faucet is fixed.” And that’s where we create space. When we stop tolerating behaviors from other people that we don’t want, those are the harder ones. First I say, start with the easy toleration, get rid of the boxes and the leaky faucet. But once we decide that we’re not going to tolerate that anymore, we’re going to feel so much better about ourselves. Like you said, self respect that we’re going to have for ourselves, but it’s a matter of getting to that point where it’s time to clean out that thing we tolerate.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And I love one of these latter ones in which you say call for backup. Obviously, even those who haven’t been in the military or FBI, we’ve all seen the TV shows and yeah, backup, I need it please, it’s a tough situation. But so many of us want to do things on our own. It’s like you ask, hey, do you need help? I’ve got it. Sometimes it means I’ve got it, but sometimes it means I have not got it, but I’m not willing to admit that I need help. It can mean that too. And just realize that we talk a lot on Crucible Leadership. We have certain gifting, but nobody has all the gifting. I’m a person of faith. And from my faith perspective, God, in his infinite wisdom, hasn’t given us all the gifting. So if we don’t have a team, we fail typically. I’m sure you’ve had that experience in the FBI team as well at work.
Warwick F:
So you led a group of cyber experts. You knew a lot about managing those, but you didn’t know as much about cyber coding as your team. And that’s okay. They probably didn’t know as much about managing and dealing with people, perhaps, I don’t know. So it requires a team. I know that sounds obvious, but so many people, so many entrepreneurs that don’t call for backup. It’s like, I got it. Right? Does that make sense?
Gina O:
That’s essential. And especially if you’re in a crisis scenario to not surround yourself with greatness, to not call in teams of people who know more than you do about how to get out of the crisis. If you’re going through any sort of crisis, whether it was like me in the FBI where we were responding to a crisis, whether it’d be a terrorist attack or a cyber attack, or if we lose a loved one or we’re going through a divorce or we’re having other issues going on at work, it is so important call a neighbor, call a family member, hire a coach, call in an expert. In this day and age, there’s absolutely no reason for us to go through anything by ourselves. And an easy way to practice that is whenever anyone offers you, would you like a cup of coffee? Yes. Would you like this? Yes. Just start saying yes to the simple things that we always say, oh no, I’m fine. No, I’m fine. But if you just practice those little things, when it comes to the big issue, it’s going to be a lot easier to accept help if you practice it now.
Gary S:
I have a question for you, Warwick, would you like the captain to turn on the fasten seatbelt sign so that we can begin the process of landing the plane?
Warwick F:
Yeah, no, I think it’s probably a good idea.
Gina O:
We can talk forever.
Gary S:
I want to amplify though, and we still have a couple of points to go through. But I want to amplify, Gina, one of the things that you say about calling for backup, because it’s critical, and Warwick talks about it a lot too, and that’s this, and I’m going to quote from your seven key ways to eliminate chaos from your business in your life. You say, “It’s also important to get out of your bubble and become involved with groups of people who are not like you. Networks of different people with a variety of skills, knowledge and networks of their own are essential in becoming unstoppable when chaos hits.” For folks who’ve been listening and they’re saying, “I’m nothing like Gina, she’s FBI and all this experience,” how can people perhaps add you to their team? How can they find out more about the services that you offer?
Gina O:
You may find me at ginalosborn.com. I have two eBooks, the eBooks that we’re talking about. And then also one for women who are working in male dominated fields, there are five key ways to navigate that. And I’m also an international speaker. So I’ve got my speaking stuff on there as well. So yes, please visit me at ginalosborn.com. The eBooks are free. And I would love to share them with you.
Gary S:
And that is Osborn without an E on the end or a U in the middle. It’s O-S-B-O-R-N. Correct?
Gina O:
Yes. Gina L. Osborn.
Gary S:
All right. Warwick, we’ve got a couple more of these seven key ways. I’ll let you take it home and get the plane on the ground from here.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So we’ve got, don’t take things personally, which I love. I’m not always fantastic at that, to be honest. I’m a tad sensitive. So I to talk myself out of it or my wife can help me talk myself out of it. But I wouldn’t say that it’s always something I do terrifically and then have courage. So talk about why you chose those two to round out these seven points that you have about eliminating chaos from your business and life? Why those last two?
Gina O:
There is a lovely book called The Four Agreements where they speak about taking things personally. And they say it’s the most selfish thing that you could possibly do. And I’m a big believer in that. I was part of a task force when I was a brand new agent and agent in the FBI. I would go to that task force and I had a partner there, but then the other detectives on the task force, they didn’t really treat me very warmly. So after about three weeks of this, I go to my partner and I said, “You know what? I don’t think any of these guys like me.” And he said, “Oh no, they like you, they just hate the FBI.” So I thought, “Oh, okay.” Well, that was a good thing. Apparently they had a bad experience with an FBI agent in the past and so they just didn’t like the feds. And that was just something, but it wasn’t me.
Gina O:
And so by taking it personally, all I’m doing is just creating all of this drama that is really unnecessary, because they liked me fine. It was something that was completely out of my control, that they were treating me with the distance on. So really we really need to just not take things personally. And even if something, we do take something personally, let’s address it immediately. I call it giving the finger, not the middle finger, the come here finger. And just ask a question, what did you mean by what you just said? And you don’t have to be confrontational about it, but that’s going to nip it in the bud, instead of using all of that energy all day long and being mad and calling all your friends to tell them what happened and then losing sleep over it. And then plotting that person’s demise is so much easier just to nip it in the bud by asking a simple question than taking it personally and diverting from your roadmap and where you want to go.
Warwick F:
Then obviously the last one have courage. You got to have courage to deal with all of this situation. As we close, what would be a word of hope that you would give to young leaders and potentially maybe especially young women leaders? What’s a word of hope and a word of counsel, perhaps, that you would give them?
Gina O:
My favorite quote is from Albert Einstein, but I’m going to modify it for my sisters. She who attempts the absurd can achieve the impossible. And that’s been my mantra. The absurd was an Orange County girl who was grown up in an alcoholic household, who went and joined the Army, which was something I never thought I would do. So if you attempt the absurd, you’re going to achieve the impossible. So don’t be afraid to risk and don’t be afraid to try. Have that courage.
Gary S:
I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject has been spoken and Gina has just spoken it. If I had done my research listener, I would have, as I say, the plane is on the ground, I’d have the name of some fighter plane or something to pay homage to Gina’s background, but I don’t. So the planes on the ground and I have for you listener, I think, three really great takeaways from our conversation with Gina Osborn today. First one, dare to be extraordinary. The very first story that Gina told was about not wanting to just be ordinary when life wasn’t going, when she was young, the way she wanted it to go. She didn’t hope for just ordinary, she dared to be extraordinary. So don’t settle for ordinary when your life has been knocked off course. Be open to the possibility. It may be an opportunity to chart a different course.
Gary S:
Moving beyond your crucible does not always or even necessarily mean hopping back on the same path. It doesn’t even mean hopping back on the same bike. You can go as far as your vision will take you if you commit to it the way that Gina has committed to. Second takeaway. Chaos we bring into our lives is equal to the chaos we allow into our lives. That is something that’s important. The chaos we bring into our lives is equal to the crises and the chaos, the crises that come out of the chaos that we bring into our lives. If we eliminate the tolerations in our lives, reduce the clutter of all sorts, as Warwick said it, we can prevent chaos from becoming crisis. Lean into your core values, set priorities and create boundaries.
Gary S:
And then the last thing tying up really the seven key ways to eliminate chaos from your business in your life, there’s a through line and I’m going to read it out of Gina’s eBook. The through line is establish your core values and live in light of them. And she wrote this in the eBook. In these difficult times, we are living in, it’s important to establish your core values so chaos doesn’t throw you off track. Values are about how you consciously choose to show up in relationships at work and in the way you navigate your inner landscape.
Gary S:
Get a pen and write this next one down, because this is the closing thought here. You commit to values daily and never reach a final destination. So until the next time we are together at Beyond the Crucible listeners, Warwick and I would ask you to do us a little favor, if you like what you’ve heard, you’ve enjoyed this conversation, click like subscribe on the podcast app on which you’re listening to the show. It helps us get the show the content, the hope that comes from these discussions out to more people.
Gary S:
And also remember this, we recognize, hopefully you’ve heard it in this conversation that your crucible experiences are painful. They hurt, they can knock you off the bike I was talking about just a little while ago. But here’s the good news, that’s not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons that, that crucible can teach you and you apply those lessons to the rest of your life, it’s not the end of your story, it’s the beginning of a new chapter in your story that can lead to the best chapter of your story. A fantastic ending to your story, because that ending is a life of significance.
We live in an almost unprecedented time of stress and anxiety with the global pandemic of the coronavirus. We don’t know how long this crisis will last, when there will be approved safe remedies to treat the virus or still less when there will be an approved vaccine. Many have been furloughed from work, unsure how long their businesses will be able to survive and how long they will have jobs, assuming they still have jobs.
Amid the fear and stress of the health and economic uncertainty, many are living and working from home; 24/7. There are short breaks to walk or go to the grocery store, but then it is back to the house packed with family; kids home from school, adult kids in some cases being at home, too. In times in which stress and anxiety are high and many of us are living and working in close quarters with each other, friction can and probably will happen. Tempers will fray, hurtful words will come out. As humans when we are under stress, we tend to take our frustrations out on those who are around us, in this case our family or those we live with. Such lashing out on those we care about or are around is understandable. Even in normal times, friction in families can happen.
How can we lessen or ideally avoid such friction in times of exceptional stress and anxiety? How can we have grace and tolerance for those around us? In time, we hope the current global pandemic will ease, and while life may be different in its aftermath, we hope we will be able to get out of the house more. Even when life becomes hopefully more normal, friction and stress can still happen. And that’s just at home, in our personal lives. Stress and anxiety – even absent a pandemic – is a reality in our workplaces, as well. Knowing how to lessen it or eliminate it through your leadership is key to leading effectively and with transparency and
Here are some tips to having more grace and tolerance with those around
1. Do an internal audit.
Recognize that you are under stress, that you are anxious. Acknowledge it and accept it. Don’t be angry at yourself or, worse, get angry at others. We can debate if there is anyone to blame for the spread of the coronavirus. Being in a state of perpetual fixation of who is to blame for what we are all going through, is not to going to help you or those you care about. The global pandemic is certainly not your family and friends’ fault. So, own your anxieties, fears and stress. Don’t lash out at others.
2. Admit your fears and anxieties to others.
It helps us for those closest to us (family and friends) to know what we are feeling. For those strong silent types (often men), who want to appear tough when inside they feel like quivering jellyfish, admit your fears to those who care for you. Chances are they are scared and uncertain, too. Such vulnerability, reduces hostility, increases understanding and actually brings you closer together.
3. Be flexible.
Some of us like our routines. We go to work each day, or perhaps we have a home office. We like getting tea or coffee from our favorite coffee shop on the way to work. We like going to the gym on our way to or way back from work. We like going out to eat at our favorite restaurant with friends. This has all stopped, and many of us are in close proximity to our families or roommates all the time, every day. That is a lot of togetherness. This is frustrating. But we need to accept the fact that our routines have been interrupted. We need to be open to change the way we do things. As someone who really likes his routine, and does not like changing it, I have found this to be a challenge. But I recognize my innate desire, perhaps need, for routine and try to take it a day at a time. Hopefully, working from home and being housebound will not be forever. It is just a season, albeit a season of uncertain length.
4. Have grace with yourself.
Accept the fact that you are going to feel stressful, uncertain and fearful in times of near universal anxiety, which at this moment is the global pandemic. Then give yourself a break. Give yourself some grace. You, like everyone else, are human. We are wired to be stressed and anxious under such circumstances. When our ancestors were attacked by bears or tigers, they were scared. That is normal. Don’t be too hard on yourself.
5. Have grace with others.
If you feel like you deserve a break, how about giving others, especially, those close friends and family, a break. There is a saying, “treat others how you want to be treated.” This is the so-called Golden Rule, actually the words of Jesus. If you feel that you deserve forgiveness in what feel like unprecedented times, then perhaps those close friends and family deserve forgiveness too.
6. Channel your energy in productive ways.
It starts with acceptance. Accept the limitations of your current living and working environment. Think positively. How can you use your adjusted circumstances positively? If you are around close friends and family more, perhaps you can have a game night or a movie night. Perhaps you can actually talk to each other, rather than running from one activity to another which many of us do in normal times. From a professional standpoint, for those whose work schedules have been cut back or altered, think of those long-term planning projects you may finally be able to get to. Perhaps you are tired of your job or profession. Use this time to think of alternative directions. Perhaps consider calling friends and colleagues. You might be amazed that some people like you are stuck at home, and perhaps could be available to connect with.
Life can be stressful. It often is. Even beyond the current pandemic, when we get stressed we tend to lash out – in both personal and professional situations. We blame ourselves. We blame others. Or perhaps both. Having grace and tolerance with yourself and others is so important. Can you imagine a world where we were all tolerant of each other, where we all showed grace to each other? A world where there is understanding and forgiveness irrespective of race, background, political party or country of origin. That is the world many of us hope for. It starts with each of us, showing grace and tolerance first to ourselves and then to others.
Reflection
How well are you treating the people around you, including your friends and family?
How well do others around you think you are treating them?
What one thing will you do this week to treat those around you with kindness, dignity and respect?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
How you think and what you feel as you move beyond your crucible is critical. It’s just as important, in fact, as what actions you take to get past it. Michelle Dickinson shares this truth as a corporate well-being strategist. She and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host and Crucible Leadership founder, Warwick Fairfax, discuss the lessons she’s learned about resilience from growing up with a bipolar mother. She also shares what she teaches executives about addressing the mental-health challenges faced by their employees. Millions of us are working to create a new normal after the myriad setbacks and traumas of the COVID-19 pandemic. That’s why, she says, we need to be extended the grace – and give it to ourselves – to realize we are stronger than any circumstance we face.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Michelle D:
One of the things that I have been working with leaders on is like, let’s help your people feel cared for. Let’s teach them psychological resilience. Let’s remind them of the things that they can be doing to care for themselves and recenter themselves. It’s been a rough 14, 15 months. What is it that they need? And how do we remind them of some things they really need to be doing to recenter themselves and feel better. If they feel better about themselves, about their life, about their work, it’s all going to be a win-win.
Michelle D:
So, it’s leading by example, really extending and doing more than handing them an 800 number for mental health and looking the other way. It’s no, let us help equip you so that you start to feel the way you want to feel.
Gary S:
Overcoming a crucible is as much about how you think as you move beyond it, as it is about what you do to get beyond it. This week’s guest, Michelle Dickinson, knows this to be true from the challenges she’s faced since childhood and from the counsels she gives businesses today as a corporate wellbeing strategist.
Gary S:
Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. Michelle and Warwick discussed at length in this episode the lessons she learned about resilience growing up with a bipolar mother and the lessons she teaches executives about proactively addressing the mental health challenges faced by their employees.
Gary S::
Particularly, as millions of us look to establish a new normal after the myriad setbacks and traumas presented by the COVID 19 pandemic, we need to be extended the grace and give it to ourselves to realize we are stronger than any circumstance we face.
Warwick F:
Well, Michelle, thank you so much for being here. I love what you do and your whole concept about being a mental health advocate in the workplace. Such a rare concept, where, as we’ll get into, it’s a taboo to talk about having challenges, emotional, mental, health challenges. I love that.
Warwick F:
And I love the title of your book, “Breaking Into My Life,” certainly my own story. The more I understand myself and my background and my own crucibles, it better helped me understand how I’m wired so I can move forward. It’s not just delving into pain just for the sake of it. It’s delving into it so that you can understand how you’re wired, at least in my case. We all have scars. So, when things come up, it’s like, okay, I understand the way that is, and that’s okay, I’ll just figure out how to manage my way around it.
Warwick F:
But before we get into what you do, which I think is fascinating, there’s always an origin story. There’s always a reason why. Why we feel so passionate and why you feel so passionate about being a mental health advocate in the workplace. So, tell us a bit about the backstory behind Michelle Dickinson and what drove you to have such a passion for what you do?
Gary S:
And I have to jump in before she says that. I want to jump in, Michelle, because people who aren’t watching this on YouTube did not see you make that scared face or that “Oh, no, I have to talk about this” face. So, that indicates that it’s going to be a story, I think, that’s going to help people. That’s why I break in, so.
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Michelle D:
I just want to first off say thank you both, Gary and Warwick, for the invitation to be part of this today and to be talking to you about this. I’m always grateful when people are curious. But my backstory is a little bit complicated. I’ll give you the short version.
Michelle D:
I grew up with a mom who had bipolar disorder. And I was her caregiver for most of her life, actually my life, starting as a very young child up until I was in my late 20s when she passed away. And that was a bit of a shaping experience. It’s not something I signed up for, but it’s something I just took on. I needed to care for her.
Michelle D:
She had the typical symptoms of bipolar. She had the extreme mania, the deep depressing lows. So, it was definitely a lot like a roller coaster. You just never knew the mom you’re going to come home to.
Michelle D:
So, that experience shaped me and taught me a lot. In retrospect now, it taught me a lot about compassion and empathy for people who struggle with mental illness. But I never thought that it would actually shape me into what I’m doing for a living. So, that’s a whole other story.
Michelle D:
But basically, that was the connection that I had to mental health. Bipolar disorder and mental illness was always a tapestry of my life and just something that I grew up with.
Warwick F:
And this may be obvious, but how did it affect you growing up dealing with a mother that probably some days, she’s really good, other days, it’s challenging. And I’m assuming, when we go through challenges, we can sometimes take it out on people that are near us and that we love and not that we necessarily mean to, but I know that can happen. How did you handle that? Because there’s probably a variety of ways that children of bipolar parents can handle this. How did you process it and handle it?
Michelle D:
It was my normal. So, when people ask the question, it’s like, well, I only knew what I knew, right? I knew that to be my experience, which was my normal. I didn’t know it to be anything different until I would go to a girlfriend’s house and watch the interaction between her mother and her and realize how very different and volatile my home life and my environment was.
Michelle D:
I think, for me, my mom was emotionally unavailable for a lot of my childhood, except for times when she had just been hospitalized and came home. She was very present to who I was and our relationship. But those were such short-lived experiences.
Michelle D:
I learned to find the love and the connection and what I needed through other relatives. I think as children, we’ve become very resourceful with what we need and where to go to get that. So, I got that from my grandmother, my aunts, and even in the mothers of my girlfriends. I always got the extra nurturing from those folks which helped me.
Warwick F:
Because sometimes, when we don’t have nurturing from a parent or a mother, I mean, human beings, in fact, I think all creatures in the world need that love and nurturing, whether it’s little birds in the nest. And I mean, it’s like part of being… part of creation.
Warwick F:
To not have that, you would know more than me, but it’s not easy to thrive and grow without that love. And you obviously found it in different sources. But for some, it could make them numb or incapable of loving others. Maybe not incapable, making it difficult.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
You’ve seen that. But somehow, you’ve avoided that.
Michelle D:
Yeah, I mean, I’ll be totally honest. I’m 49 years old and I’m still in therapy. I’m still unpacking the impact that my mother’s and my relationship had on me as it shaped me as a very little girl.
Michelle D:
I think one of the biggest places that I got a lot of attention and love and support was my youth group. I think I naturally gravitated to a safe space where I could just tell people what I was dealing with at home. Because back in the 70s and 80s, when I was growing up, like mental illness was even more stigmatized. So, we kept that very close to the vest. We didn’t want anyone to know. It was extremely embarrassing.
Michelle D:
So, I really never felt safe to talk about what I was dealing with until I found my youth group and then I felt accepted and was able to get support from the kids in the group.
Warwick F:
Was that like a youth group at a church or-
Michelle D:
Yeah, it was my youth group, my church youth group.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Gary S:
I love, Michelle, that you just said, “Let me be honest, I’m 49 years old and I’m still in therapy.” Because sometimes we think that there’s a statute of limitations on how long we can struggle with the crucibles we struggle with. And Warwick, I know in your own story, you talked about… I mean, when we talk about what happened with the takeover and the failed takeover bid, that was 30-some years ago.
Gary S:
So, that wasn’t like the next week, you were okay, everything’s going great. So, I think that’s an important message that you both share with folks that you can still be moving forward while still dealing with what has, in some ways, held you back or that you’re dealing with to keep from holding you back. That’s an important message. That it’s not you’ve got to get over it in this certain period of time. It’s a process.
Warwick F:
It is and it’s funny. I mean, I shared this, very recently, in the last podcast that we did. I had a close family member. I didn’t know that they were bipolar. They were never diagnosed. But certainly, there was some sense of mania, of extreme highs and extreme lows. And that was sometimes, when I was small and beyond, taken out on me and so I never knew, okay, who am I going to find today? Because I didn’t know any different. I assumed that was like normal. And so later on through, for me, yes, it was people of faith and community and mentors, some counseling and I began to understand it more.
Warwick F:
But it can shake your sense of self when there’s just the extreme level of unpredictability. So certainly, for me, and I’m blessed to have a wonderful wife. We’ve been married just over 30 years and she loves me unconditionally. And as I tell my kids, they have an incredible mother and they’re alternatives to that model. And they are blessed. But yet, I’m certainly somebody that my family knows I don’t like change. I like predictability, I like my rhythms. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out. I wonder why that is.
Warwick F:
And it’s okay. I mean, I still live a good life and take risks, thoughtful risks, other than when I jokingly say I do $2 billion takeovers when that wasn’t quite such a thoughtful risk. Other than that, I’m a careful decision-maker. Well, some people are just born skydivers and risk-takers. That’s not me. Well, I wonder why. So, anyway, all that’s to say is, I don’t pretend to completely understand what you went through, but have maybe some conception.
Michelle D:
But I can draw a parallel to that, Warwick, because I do also gravitate to stability. I don’t take as many risks as I would like to. And I think it was just because of the unpredictable environment I grew up in. I crave some sense of stability. And sometimes, it’s not always a good thing.
Warwick F:
No, but it’s like, there’s some things it’s good to change. Like, again, not to get into all my foibles, but I take calculated risks. But as a kid, I was never particularly physically brave. I wasn’t really an athlete. So, the whole ropes course things or, I mean, I can get a little bit of vertigo, which doesn’t help. But I would never do any of that stuff. I was too afraid.
Warwick F:
But it’s like, I’m actually okay with that. There was some things I don’t feel an excessive need to prove I can overcome. I pick my battles. It’s like, I don’t have to prove in every aspect of my life that I can be superhuman, but anyway.
Warwick F:
So, what you went through has obviously shaped you. So, you talked about those experiences with a bipolar mom. That shaped you growing up in your 20s. And yeah, I mean, it’s not like, okay, I’m over 18, I’m good, even with the youth group. So, talk about some of those challenges as you… from teenagers to early adulthood, and that kind of thing.
Michelle D:
Yeah, I’ve always struggled with self-confidence. I think it was because my mom wasn’t the one reminding me that whatever I wanted to do I was capable of. So, my self-confidence was always very fragile. And, I think, struggling with that, finding my first corporate job, navigating, being accepted, the strong desire to be liked at whatever cost. So, I think I struggled with that a lot.
Michelle D:
I did spend many years in therapy just trying to understand why I was the way I was. So, that was hard. And then even, after I was out of the home, my mom was still very manipulative and controlling. So, I still had to navigate that, which was interesting. But I also learned for my own wellbeing, I had to distance myself from her to protect myself. And that was something I couldn’t do as a little girl, but I could do as an adult. And I did do it. And sometimes it came with harsh repercussions from her, but it also preserved my mental health. So, it was quite the journey.
Warwick F:
And that requires a lot of inner strength. Sometimes, as I sometimes say in my own life, I think when you deal with a family member like that, you have to become an expert in forgiving.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Because if you don’t forgive, as I often say, you put yourself in your own prison, not that behavior like that, which one can analyze if it’s their fault or not their fault. I mean it’s hard to say mental illness is somebody’s fault. But either way, even if it’s not their fault, it’s still something to forgive, not to condone the behavior.
Warwick F:
But I often find in my own life when I’d forgive and I’ve had a lot of practice and one of the things that I do well, I think I’m reasonably good in that area, it’s like the gift that keeps on giving. It’s like I’m just trying to catch up with the last episode, please not another one? I mean, come on, really?
Warwick F:
So, you get a lot of practice. It’s not one and done. It’s incident after incident. So, I’m sure you’ve probably got pretty good, for you to be whole, at forgiving even though it’s… forgiving and condoning, as I’ve said, is different, but I’m sure you had a lot of practice, unfortunately, right?
Michelle D:
Yeah, for many years, I was very angry at my mom and very resentful because she was also emotionally and physically abusive to me. And so, I spent a lot of time disagreeing with the reality of who she was, right. And when we disagree with reality, we basically create our own upset. And so, I was angry with her because I was… it’s so easy to be focused on the effects that someone with a mental illness is having on you, instead of trying to step into their world and try to realize what their life was like.
Michelle D:
So, I had to go through a lot of self-discovery to finally find forgiveness in my heart for my mom, and that did not come easy. That came with many years of self-reflective work through Landmark, Tony Robbins, whatever, to just reach a place of peace and forgiveness and compassion. I had no real compassion for her for many years because she, occurred to me, is just someone who was evil and mean.
Michelle D:
But then, I was able to eventually get to the point and really realized that she was a mom doing the best she could, and she was doing it with a mental illness. And that was when everything just… like my shoulders just dropped and I was just like, wow, imagine being a mom trying to raise a daughter and not knowing if you were going to be happy or sad, and how hard life must have been for her. And then when I found that compassion for her, I was able to forgive her and accept her for who she was.
Warwick F:
I mean, that’s somewhat of a miracle, as anybody who’s gone through this realizes that that is extremely hard. And I think it’s true, certainly in my own experience, when you understand why the person is the way they are. We’ll never know the full story. I mean, I don’t, in my case. But to understand, it makes it easier to have compassion. And yeah, I mean, it is possible over time. And sometimes we think, if I let the anger go, then what they did is okay. And we tell ourselves that… which is wrong, but that’s the story we tell ourselves.
Warwick F:
I don’t want to forget the pain because I don’t want that to be seen as right, that behavior when it’s just… and there’s a lot of listeners, unfortunately, that go through this, whether it’s parents or spouses or other family members. It’s just important to let go because, as I often say, because you’re worth it, we’re worth it.
Michelle D:
Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. There was someone that once told me, “Separate your mother from her illness. And then you can love your mother for who she is and you can hate the illness.” And that, actually, was the first step for me to start to begin to forgive her for what she did, not excuse it, not excuse it at all. I mean, she was mean, she was cruel, and she said things to me that I still am haunted by.
Michelle D:
But it’s a journey. And I think we have to… the first thing we have to do when it comes to loving someone with a mental illness is try to find the compassion in our heart for their humanness, for the human that they are, before blending them with their illness.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And so, talk about how, what you went through somehow in early adulthood, whether it’s your own family situation and job situation that it’s… I mean, did it have… that’s probably a very silly question. But I’m assuming it had some repercussions. Did you feel like… or maybe they were separate? Maybe there were separate incidents that happened to you not related to what your mom went through?
Michelle D:
I mean, it’s interesting, because I write in my book, “Breaking Into My Life,” I actually write in there that my first marriage, I married my mother. I married the male version of my mother because it was comfortable and it was familiar. And I learned a lot through that experience. It was a very short marriage, but I realized that I gravitate to familiar situations that are unhealthy for me. And there’s a perfect example of the repercussions of that.
Warwick F:
But before I mention a comment, so talk about the role of faith, did that play any role in your dealing with it, processing it, maybe coming back from it?
Michelle D:
Yeah, I mean, I think I had always been raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school. My youth group was such a wonderful memory from my childhood and really did help me. I think I always had my faith or my spirituality that I was never alone. I mean, the other aspect to my life is I’m adopted.
Michelle D:
So, I always had moments where I was like, “I don’t belong here.” So, I would just trust in a higher power to care for me and look after me, because there was no worse feeling than being abused by our adopted mother and wondering why you aren’t with the family you’re supposed to be with.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, it’s a conversation, I guess. I mean, for me, I was blessed. Faith has always been very important for me. And when I was in Australia during the whole takeover years, because the stress was monumental. My name was in the papers all the time. I was on my knees in prayer pretty much every day just trying to get through the day. It was pretty difficult.
Warwick F:
And it sounds a little weird out there, but I just felt like this silent, still, small voice of God, I mean, not audible, just tell me that an American girl who was visiting some friends that this is the one I have for you. And the strange thing is I also would have… if left to my own devices, I would have done what you did, found somebody to marry like this family member who was controlling, outgoing, manipulative, some of the things that you’ve said. And my wife, Gale, I mean, she certainly has a strong will like I do, but she’s not controlling. She has a capacity to love unconditionally.
Warwick F:
And so, I just feel… I mean, she was a nice person who I respected, but probably wouldn’t have been the person I would have normally gone out with, because it wasn’t the model. But yet, because I was in so much challenge professionally, I knew that was, I know it sounds weird, I knew that was from the Lord. I was convinced. And I was not going to ignore it because I did not… I wanted to chart a different course. And so, I did and smartest, I wouldn’t say, decision I made, but smartest voice I ever listened to and we’re married 30 years. But that was only by the grace of God. That was not because of me. So, anyway, so-
Michelle D:
That’s awesome. That’s a beautiful story.
Warwick F:
I’m blessed.
Michelle D:
Yeah, it’s a beautiful story.
Warwick F:
Yeah, sometimes listening to your own… I tell my kids this, don’t always think you know what’s best. Some people say arranged marriages are a good idea, which I don’t know. I don’t know whether that works in our culture, but in some cultures, I can see the value of it. But it’s tough to do that in the US.
Warwick F:
So I just want to shift gears here into what you do. But you mentioned around the time of the divorce, I believe you also had lost a job. There was a week which was… you’ve had some tough weeks, but this is probably up there on one of the toughest weeks for you, I’m guessing.
Michelle D:
Yeah, it’s interesting. I totally believe that everything… that life is always happening for us even though in moments of darkness, we can’t always see it. So, it was very ironic that I went to divorce court on a Monday in May and two days later, I was called into a meeting and told my position was eliminated. So, I lost a marriage and a job within the same week within the same year.
Warwick F:
Oh my God.
Gary S:
So please tell me, Michelle, that if you got divorced on Monday, you lost a job on Wednesday, please tell me, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday were better.
Michelle D:
They were.
Gary S:
Good, good. There’s hope right there.
Michelle D:
Right there.
Warwick F:
So, how did you come back from that? Did you have kids from your marriage?
Michelle D:
No, no.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Michelle D:
I didn’t have children. And I was actually already living by myself after being separated for about a year. But it definitely was one of those things where you’re like, well, I can’t go any lower, right? I could get kicked out of where I live. That would have been the worst. Or God forbid, if something happened to me and my health. I mean, there were many blessings in my life.
Michelle D:
I think for me at that moment, it was like, okay, so I’m being presented change for some reason, how do I deal with this? I surrounded myself with my friends, because I was having a party that following Saturday anyway. I surrounded myself with my friends. And it was called the new beginnings party where everyone got together and it was just wonderful to be with them.
Michelle D:
And I just started to figure out what am I going to do? Like, what’s next for me? And where am I being pulled to? And ironically, the whole two years before I lost my job, I had released my book, I had given a TED talk, I was finding a lot of satisfaction in talking about mental health and really helping people understand it. So, I felt pulled, that I was being pulled in that direction instead of going back into the corporate world.
Michelle D:
And so, I just had to listen. I did a lot of meditating. And I started to just get present to where am I being pulled to and what’s next for me. And that’s when I decided I’m not going back into the corporate space. I’m going to create a company and I’m going to teach compassion and resilience, and that’s what I’m going to do.
Warwick F:
What’s fascinating to me, we talk about this a lot on Beyond the Crucible, is sometimes crucibles happen to us for a reason. We never liked them. I didn’t like, obviously, the family one I mentioned, but just even the whole takeover ending 150 years of family history. And the Wikipedia entry, which still isn’t particularly favorable, young, hot-headed kid, could have had it all and blew it.
Warwick F:
And then I had to say, well, what do I want to do with my life? Because absent that, I would have been there forever, because I couldn’t have let my dad down who I dearly loved and ancestors down. But for you, that crucible of losing your job, it wasn’t fun at the time. You wouldn’t have chosen it. But it created an opportunity that maybe you would have had, maybe not.
Warwick F:
But sometimes, whether it’s God, the universe, or some higher power, I sometimes wonder, and we’ll never know concretely, but things like that happen, you think, gosh, maybe there’s a reason, maybe there’s a purpose. Did you begin to think at least later on, maybe there’s a reason that I lost that job? Maybe in some weird way, it was for the best, much as it was painful.
Michelle D:
Yeah, it was the certainty and the comfort I would have never left on my own. I’m crystal clear. I mean, I spent 19 years in the pharmaceutical industry. My vision was retire from the industry and live a very happy and healthy retirement. And there’s a lot to be said about being comfortable and living in complete certainty, like I had certainty. But was I using my life to what I really should have been using it for?
Michelle D:
And so, I think for me, I’m really clear now. I would have never had the courage to do it. And in retrospect, it was probably the biggest gift to be pushed in the direction where I can make the biggest contribution.
Gary S:
That is a textbook definition of what we call a life of significance here at Crucible Leadership, that you were from out of your crucible, you decided to pursue not “success,” what you described as that being comfortable, and you pursued a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. That’s what you’re doing right now. And that is, I mean, that truly is text book Crucible Leadership.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. So, talk about when you were fired and you decided to form your own initiative, own company. Talk about, I mean, I could guess, but why being a mental health advocate in the workplace? It could have been mental health advocate in general, it could have been become a counselor. There’s all sorts of things you could have done. But what led you to have this passion, this zeal, this mission for mental health advocate in the workplace?
Michelle D:
I just want to mention, it was a struggle to come to that conclusion. I have to tell you, for several months, my energy was split between trying to get back into the corporate space and trying to start a business, right? Like, I wasn’t committed. I was not fully committed. But it wasn’t until I said to myself, I need to fully commit and put all my energy behind this company and stop entertaining the comfort desire that I had to go back in and just live someone else’s company dreams.
Michelle D:
So, for me, it was… the workplace, I spent 19 years in corporate America. My first job was at IBM, right out of high school. I spent several years in different big pharma companies here in New Jersey. I learned a lot about the inner workings of the corporate space in terms of walking the square, the political environment within, the leadership journey of many within the corporate space. So, I wanted to make a difference because I saw what was happening was we were losing the humanness of leadership. We were becoming all about the deliverables and losing the person in the process.
Michelle D:
And to observe that over the years is one thing but then I experienced a lack of compassion and empathy and humanness when I was diagnosed with depression. So, I’m going through the divorce and I get diagnosed with depression. And I had never personally been diagnosed with depression. I always dealt with seasonal depression, moderately, nothing big. But being adopted, I was like, “I’m never going to have bipolar, thank God.” But then I was diagnosed with it. And I was also leading… I was one of like a group of leaders leading a mental health employee resource group, a grassroots, sort of employee-driven mental health resource group for people to come together and support one another.
Michelle D:
So, I’m doing this work, I’m public speaking about my book. And from left field, I’m dealing with depression and I go to a doctor, I get the diagnosis. And I say to myself, “I have to lead by example.” And I tell my leader, people are looking at me, I have to own this. So, I remember telling her, “I was diagnosed with depression. This is really hitting me harder than I thought. And I just want you to know that,” right. And it was met with this lukewarm response. And she’s a line manager, many, many years of leading people.
Michelle D:
And then six months later, during my performance review, she says to me, “You didn’t measure up. You didn’t meet the expectations of your performance. You didn’t bring your bubbly, upbeat self to work every day.” And I stopped for a second and there in that moment was when the fire was lit in my belly. Because I said to myself, this really is… I can’t believe my ears, first of all. I can’t believe my ears. She’s judging me on my bubbliness and she knows that I’ve just been trying to deal with my depression and meet my deliverables.
Michelle D:
So, in that moment, I just said to myself, “This is the issue, this is the gap.” This is where we can make a bigger difference by educating people leaders on just how to be compassionate and really extend themselves and care about their people before anything else. That was really the reason behind why I said if I’m going to make a change, I’m going to make it in the corporate space because we need to teach compassion and bring compassion back into the workplace, and heart-centered leadership, where people really are genuinely concerned about each other as people before performance.
Warwick F:
Were you told at all that you didn’t meet the deliverables, the performance goals? Or was it just, well, you’re not being as bubbly as you normally were?
Michelle D:
Yeah, I mean, I was told… so it wasn’t like I was told like, along the journey, which is what we like to hear, right? That there’s an open narrative about performance. Nah, I wasn’t told any of that. And then at the review, I was just told, “You didn’t measure up and you didn’t meet expectations.”
Michelle D:
And my goals were… some of them were tangible, some of them I clearly achieved, but others were very subjective, let’s just say. So, I definitely didn’t feel like I was given a fair shake. I had been an overachiever for eight years with the company, always exceeding my performance goals. So, that one year was really hard for me. And that’s how I was evaluated.
Warwick F:
I mean, it’s obviously hard to know. And smart line managers aren’t going to make it easy to figure out because why would they? But did it feel like, hmm, because I had that conversation about depression, somehow, maybe there’s a link between me, this bad performance review, and ultimately losing my job. Now, you’ll never know, for sure. But did it feel to you like maybe there was perhaps some link there between that conversation that changed the perception of your boss?
Michelle D:
Yes. Of course, of course. Unfortunately, and of course, absolutely. And so that’s where I get really passionate about organizations having agreement at the top of the organization, employees driving change at the bottom of the organization. But then, those line managers really need to be the ones that they put energy behind, because they’re the face of the company.
Michelle D:
So yeah, absolutely, I did. And I won’t know. And it is what it is. And look at what I’m doing now. And I’m much happier, so.
Warwick F:
I mean, one of the things that… it’s funny, we said in a recent blog, in a recent podcast is the importance of mission and people. I know this sounds blindingly obvious.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
But as you know, as well as anybody, in corporate America or corporate really anywhere in the world, for-profit or nonprofit, it’s both. I mean, I go to an evangelical, nondenominational church. I’m an elder there. It’s a well-run place. But even in the church or nonprofit world, you can be so focused on the mission. We’re trying to bring clean water to parts of Africa or whatever the mission is, wonderful goal, you can be so focused on the mission. Even a worthy mission, make the planet more environmentally conscious, you can sacrifice people along the way, even for a mission that we all think is wonderful.
Warwick F:
And obviously, in the corporate world, it can be the same way we’ve got to profits up and, hey, this person maybe is not meeting some goals, let’s find some replacements. After all, they’re just cogs in the machine. Nobody has called somebody a cog openly. But ironically, from my perspective, and I’m sure yours, if you want to have high performance in the corporate area, you have a group of committed people that feel you care for them.
Michelle D:
Yes.
Warwick F:
They got to have the skills and the qualifications.
Michelle D:
Sure.
Warwick F:
And be committed. But if they feel like you have their back, their performance will increase. So, it makes good business sense, as I’m sure you would agree and advocate, caring for people makes good business sense. I haven’t obviously listened to all of your talk, but I got to believe that’s in there somewhere, right?
Michelle D:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
Caring for people makes sense. So, talk about what does it look like practically to be a mental health advocate in the workplace? What is this change you’re trying to bring about in the corporate world?
Michelle D:
Yeah, there’s a lot of things organizations can be doing to cultivate a culture of compassion. And I would first say the first thing that they can do is start really caring about their people, especially now in the face of everything we’ve been dealing with, with this pandemic, right? Leading by example, walking the walk, talking the talk.
Michelle D:
So, one of the things that I have been working with leaders on is like, let’s help your people feel cared for, let’s teach them psychological resilience. Let’s remind them of the things that they can be doing to care for themselves and recenter themselves. It’s been a rough 14, 15 months. What is it that they need? And how do we remind them of some things they really need to be doing to recenter themselves and feel better. If they feel better about themselves, about their life, about their work, it’s all going to be a win-win.
Michelle D:
So, it’s leading by example, really extending and doing more than handing them an 800 number for mental health and looking the other way. It’s no, let us help equip you so that you start to feel the way you want to feel. So, it’s that. It’s also what are you doing in the workplace to normalize the narrative around brain health?
Michelle D:
So often, stigma paralyzes people. They don’t talk about it, they’re embarrassed by it, and therefore they ignore their wellbeing and then it escalates. So, we have a responsibility to normalize the narrative and there are simple things organizations can do to really cultivate that in the workplace. So, I guide them in different activities they can do to really open up a conversation that is comfortable for both the leader and the employee, but not too invasive, because you can’t change a culture overnight. You have to do it slowly and you have to have leaders courageous enough to go first.
Warwick F:
I love what you say. I mean, part of it is providing mental health resources. Obviously, ideally, the company would pay for it or pay for a lot of it and make it not just something that nobody wants to join, but also by modeling it. I know Brené Brown has done a lot of work on vulnerability. And one of the things we talk about here on Crucible Leadership is vulnerability for a purpose. You could talk about every dumb thing you ever did. Like you could be some line manager and say, “Yeah, I had a DUI and I did drugs and I smoked this.” It’s like, “Okay, that’s great, but what’s the point? How does this help me?”
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
It’s another thing if they’re sharing some challenge that they went through growing up, and then you say, “Well, you know what, I went through that too.” That’s where it’s vulnerability for a purpose to make them feel heard and that they’re not alone. None of us want to be alone.
Warwick F:
When you feel like your boss, your coworkers understand you and have been through maybe not your exact thing, maybe they’ve been through similar things, that helps, I mean, wouldn’t you agree, normalize. I love the phrase you used which is it’s okay not to be okay.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
If your boss and coworkers… you don’t have to get to every minute, granular level of detail, but just to say, “You know what, I’m actually not okay and here’s why.” Just the cliff notes version.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
And then share that. Does that make sense? And I would love if more bosses, more CEOs were open about their own challenges and say their life hasn’t always been rosy. I may be a CEO, but-
Michelle D:
Amen.
Warwick F:
… there’s always a backstory.
Michelle D:
Yeah, they have the ability to set the tone, right? If they’re willing to say, “I dealt with anxiety at one point,” and I’m your CEO, like, oh my goodness, people are going to talk about them revealing that and be okay, acknowledging their own stuff.
Warwick F:
And it’s going to give them tremendous hope. If he or she can be CEO-
Michelle D:
Yes.
Warwick F:
… then maybe I can. Maybe this is not like a corporate death sentence, what I went through, a life death sentence. Maybe, yes, there will always be scars, but I can have a fulfilling and rewarding life. I can overcome, in a sense.
Warwick F:
So, yeah, I mean, just the combination of modeling, which then makes going to mental health… if your boss says, “Yeah, I had to go through counseling,” and that’s like, really, wow, then maybe it’s… because sometimes we feel like… and I’ve gone through counseling for what I went through.
Warwick F:
Sometimes you think, oh, if you go to counseling, it’s a stigma. We’re broken, we’re failed. Well, it’s like, guess what? We’re all broken in some sense. Maybe some of us may feel more broken than others. But I don’t know any person that’s human that has not broken in some way, that hasn’t had some setback, that’s affected them in their lives.
Warwick F:
So, yeah, do you feel like you’re making progress that people are listening to you? CEOs and companies that it’s not like, “Well, thank you, Michelle. That was really powerful and interesting and we’ll get back to you.”
Michelle D:
It depends, Warwick, it depends. Some leaders are very aware of the massive impact that this whole COVID has had on people, mentally and emotionally. And they want to do more. They genuinely do want to do more. Other organizations, they think that what they’re doing is adequate, right? The 800 number, they can call it if they need it. It’s like no. Like here in the United States, the CDC says that one in three Americans are dealing with anxiety or depression because of the pandemic. One in three.
Warwick F:
That’s staggering.
Michelle D:
Chances are your employees are struggling in silence and they’re embarrassed and your culture prevents them from feeling confident enough to reach out proactively and get supported. And that’s a problem.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I wonder if, and I’m sure you do this, but I wonder if CEOs begin to realize if you deal with mental health proactively and helping people feel like it’s okay not to be okay, that is a corporate strategic advantage.
Michelle D:
Amen.
Warwick F:
If your competitors don’t, I’m doing it, you will get better people and you’ll be able to retain them. And why would you want to forego something that gives you a leg up on the competition? Whether you care about it or not, and I hope they do. But even if they don’t, and it’s like, I’m just about the bottom line. This will help you.
Michelle D:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
I mean, I’m sure you’ve obviously given that speech, if you will. Do you find that begins to percolate in their brains as like, hmm, corporate strategic advantage, I like that.
Michelle D:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
Does that work at all?
Michelle D:
Yes. And you have to also look at the disability costs, right? Like people just going out, being out of work to manage a crisis is another expense. Engagement, people are not engaged in their work because they’re preoccupied with whatever they’re dealing with mentally and emotionally. There are so many reasons. And just the feedback alone from the employees who I’ve had the privilege of leading through my programs have said, “This program has made a difference for me because it’s reminded me of all the things I need to be doing. But most importantly, I feel cared for by my company and by my boss, that they’re doing a little bit more to help me feel good.”
Gary S:
Yeah, and I’m going to jump in at that point, because we’re recording this podcast at a telltale time for me. As you know, Michelle, because we were supposed to do this recording last week. My father passed away two weeks ago, as we record this podcast now. And while I am the president of my own company, so I have only myself to give myself some slack, that my clients who I work with have been exactly what you’ve been talking about, Warwick being one of them.
Gary S:
Warwick and I are friends on Facebook. I’ll post something about my dad on Facebook, Warwick will comment about that, talk to me about that, reach out and recognize that I’m going through a difficult time. Warwick, you don’t even know this, as we were waiting for this recording to begin, the folks at SIGNAL, the branding agency that you have, that I work with as part of your team, they send flowers on my dad’s passing that are right here.
Gary S::
Now, those things don’t end the pain and the mental struggle, but they do make you realize that people care, that people look at you as something beyond just here’s a task he can do, here’s the bottom line he can help us achieve. That, I think, is the essence, in some ways, Michelle, of what you’re trying to tell people when you say find that culture of compassion, that culture that says, okay, tasks maybe can stop for the day.
Gary S:
You were very gracious when we miscommunicated because I was in a bit of a fog. And you were very gracious when we missed the first opportunity to do this interview, and now we’re doing it. And I’ll go in with your conversation about higher power and God’s involvement. I got to believe it’s not a coincidence that you’re the guest that we had on the line when my father passed away.
Gary S:
So, let me thank you for walking your own talk in that you were very gracious toward me because I didn’t send the email or didn’t get there. And you were waiting and it didn’t happen. All of that does help add up to feeling like more than a number. That’s where I’m at. I am more than a number to those folks with whom I work, and that is a critical part of the healing process. For me, that’s what it’s been and I imagine you’d say that’s true for others as well.
Michelle D:
Oh, absolutely. I say this all the time in my psychological resilience program that we all navigate these types of life-altering experiences in a very unique way, right. Like, I’ve lost my parents, but my experience is very different than yours. We all are going to experience these challenges of life in our own unique way and we can’t compare ourselves to other people. What we need to do is really just extend that compassion to whatever is needed at the moment. Like, just be human again.
Michelle D:
And I think that that’s what’s fundamentally important, especially around COVID. People struggled for 14, 15 months. Other people appeared to be fine. Everybody has been in their own boat in the same ocean and just trying to do the best they can. And we’re not going to get out of this without a mental health crisis that’s looming and PTSD from all that we lost during this. So, we really do need more compassion now more than ever.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And I think along with compassion, the word that comes to me is grace. When people go through tough times, whether it’s the loss of a loved one, or a divorce, or mental health challenge, if they’re a valued employee, and I’m assuming you wouldn’t have hired them if they weren’t valuable. They have a good attitude, they try, and that’s one thing. If nothing ever gets done, they have a poor attitude, year in, year out, okay, that’s a different problem you have.
Warwick F:
But let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that they try hard, they’re a valuable member of the team, they’ve got the skills you need, all of the benchmarks that they wouldn’t be there if they didn’t have them, then when life events happen or challenges, cut them some slack. Give them some grace. Don’t say, “Hey, X key performance indicator that has to be done by Friday. I don’t care what’s happening in your life, get it done.” It’s like, really? That’s not how you should treat people.
Warwick F:
I mean, that old adage, treat people the way you would like to be treated. If you’re going through something, wouldn’t you want a bit of grace? Maybe somebody else can pick that up for you, or maybe it’ll take a bit longer to get it done. And none of us are perfect in this in terms of extending the grace we should. But compassion and grace go a long way to making people feel valued and treasured, if you will. Does that make sense?
Michelle D:
Yeah, it totally does. But here’s the monkey wrench in that whole conversation you just shared. You can’t have compassion or empathy for someone else if you don’t have it for yourself. So, a lot of times, people are acting the way they know to act because that’s how they are.
Michelle D:
So, when that woman said to me, “You didn’t bring your bubbly, upbeat self to work,” I was mad, angry, hurt, but then I stopped and I reflected, what was her relationship? Does she extend compassion to herself? What were her biases around mental health and depression when I shared that with her? So, there’s a whole host of self-awareness and biases and self-compassion that plays into the ability to be compassionate.
Warwick F:
Well, I mean, what you just said is so profound. I mean, I’m reminded of the title of your book, Breaking into My Life. To a degree, and I don’t pretend to be a mental health expert or even a theologian, but there is a sense where I wonder how easy is it to forgive others if you can’t forgive yourself?
Michelle D:
Right.
Warwick F:
Which goes first? I don’t know. But certainly, one plays into the other. I’ve had years of experience of forgiving my own. It’s not so much I tried to hurt anybody, which really my own stupidity. I was young and naive. And, okay, I was young and naive and made some dumb decisions. Would have I made those decisions now? Probably not. I think I’m better at seeking good advice. Rather than what I did was, in my case, it’s classic.
Warwick F:
I ignored the advice from the good investment bankers who said “Don’t do it, it’s too risky.” I listened to the people that were more looking for a big fee who said “Yep, go ahead.” It was a classic how to be stupid and make poor business decisions. It was incredulous, what I did.
Warwick F:
But okay, so I was in my late 20s and I made some dumb decisions where you got to forgive yourself. And it’s so true. And if you can’t forgive yourself, then, yeah, you’ll probably treat others the way that you feel like you should be treated. I hadn’t quite thought about it that way. But yeah, I mean, that’s such a good point you’re making.
Michelle D:
I arrived at this well after the incident. And I’m present to it because one of the chronic complaints I heard from employees was “I’m going to kill my partner. I’ve now been in my home with them for 12 months. They’re driving me nuts.”
Michelle D:
And so, I actually have a module in my psychological resilience course where I talk about the importance of self-compassion and grace, and having an understanding of how to extend your own compassion to the ones around you. Because people were at each other’s throats, people were arguing, and their family unit was struggling.
Michelle D:
So, we had to have a conversation about compassion for yourself and for each other, and really trying to understand that they’re doing the best they can in the circumstances that they’ve been given. Even though we’re all dealing with COVID, their experience is very unique to them. So, we really do have to step in other people’s shoes.
Gary S:
That is a time where there was enough silence in the conversation that I heard the captain turn on the fasten seatbelt sign and we’re getting to the point where we’re going to have to land the plane. But before we do that, and Warwick will ask at least one more question, Michelle. Before we do that, before the captain does put the plane on the ground, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let our listeners know how they can find out more about the fascinating services you offer as that bridge between them and the corporate world, or if they’re in the corporate world, between them and their employees.
Gary S:
How can people find out more about your services and you?
Michelle D:
Sure. You can go to careforyourpeople.com and you can learn why it’s so important to do a little bit more for your people, and you can connect with me there. And if you’re interested in learning about my story, you can easily go to Barnes & Noble or Amazon and look for my book, “Breaking into My Life.”
Gary S:
Fantastic. Warwick, what else can we pick Michelle’s excellent brain on?
Warwick F:
Well, a lot, I’m sure. But I love this image you have of the bridge between helping people confront their mental health and being able to get the support they need. Do you feel like that’s really a symbol of what your mission is, being the bridge? And if so, just talk about that metaphor, because that’s such a rich metaphor, being a bridge.
Michelle D:
It’s one of those things where if you can… the thing that I learned from giving my TED Talk and from writing the book was that the courage to go first creates an opening for other people to not feel so alone. So that’s why I say I’m the bridge because I have no problem telling my story. I want you to hear my story. I want you to understand that it’s perfectly normal to deal with mental health challenges and we can thrive in the face of them. It’s not a death sentence.
Michelle D:
So, I think it’s so important that we have people that are willing to go first, that can open the door, open the narrative, and that’s how we remove stigma. So, that’s why I say I’m the bridge because I want people to get comfortable with their brain health, so they’re not hesitant to get support and they can do so before they hit a crisis.
Warwick F:
One thing that we talk about on Beyond the Crucible, I talk about a lot is, and I don’t know if you found this, but as you talk about what you went through, there’s a healing component, a healing balm as I talk about. When you share that and people don’t look at you biblically like leper, unclean, please leave the town, you’re broken, I just don’t want to ever be in your presence because some of your negative experiences may rub off on me or whatever. They wouldn’t say that, whatever they’re thinking. Whatever we think they’re thinking.
Michelle D:
Right.
Warwick F:
But I know, as I’ve shared my story and I’ve mentioned before, for a number of years, I would refuse to go to reunions. I was fortunate enough to do my undergrad at Oxford and then I got my MBA at Harvard Business School. So, for instance, Harvard Business School, Boston is a little bit closer to where I live in Maryland. I wouldn’t go because I felt too ashamed, too embarrassed. But I finally said, you know what, I’m just going to go.
Warwick F:
And it’s not like I’m the first Harvard MBA that has had a business challenge. I mean, it’s obvious in hindsight. And they were like, “That’s okay, Warwick.” I mean, I wasn’t seen as this leper. So, as I started to do those things and share my story, I wasn’t like thrown out of the town or the village.
Warwick F:
And as I saw that my story could help others, that gave… I know it sounds so trite, but that gave some purpose to the pain and there was a healing element. I’ve got to believe you’ve experienced that. And if you have, is that something you talk in some of the courses you do?
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Sharing it actually, not only helping others, it helps you to. Does that make sense?
Michelle D:
You have no idea. You are absolutely right. Writing this book took four years, and it was hard and it was cathartic. And when I finally finished writing it, I said to myself, I can have people see that there’s hope, that our past doesn’t dictate our future, that we still have the pen in our hand to write our future. And I think that sharing my story about my own depression helps people see the hope that it’s possible, that you can navigate life, and you can deal with it, and you can move forward. And I think we all need to recognize the power of our stories to really show hope for people who need it.
Warwick F:
Well, it’s funny, one last beat on this, I almost laughed at… four years is pretty good. For me, it was more like 12 years.
Gary S:
I was thinking the same thing.
Warwick F:
Three times as long. But I love that image of the chains and why it’s such an awesome cover. But I gave the talk in church and somehow it resonated with people that, as I say, I think I was a media mogul, former media mogul in church that day. But somehow my story inexplicably resonated with people, which still boggles my mind.
Warwick F:
But yeah, when I was writing in the next several years, that book, I couldn’t do more than a couple hours, three a day max, I would be like, this is too painful. I’m talking about the minute details of how dumb and stupid I was, and the assumptions I made that were so idiotic. And it’s like, okay, I need to take a break and recover before… you, I’m sure, would be same, if not worse, but-
Michelle D:
The same, yup.
Warwick F:
But yeah, I mean, thank you for what you do. And I love that concept of the bridge. And there’s obviously a lot of work to be done with COVID. I think people are really feeling it. But being able to help destigmatize mental health that it doesn’t mean you’re permanently damaged and you should be thrown in the garbage or whatever you feel about yourself. From my perspective, I think our Creator God loves us all just because of who we are.
Michelle D:
Yes.
Warwick F:
We can be beautiful and broken, which again, is not my phrase, but it’s a good one. We may be broken, but there can be a purpose to the pain. Yeah, there is hope. So, I hope more workplaces help destigmatize it, get people help, but as importantly, share their stories. Because when your boss and coworkers share that story, then you’re probably far more likely to actually get help and feel like it’s okay to talk about it.
Warwick F:
So, thank you for being on the front lines. There’s a lot of work to do, I’m sure.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
The battle is a tough one. But thank you for being in the thick of things and a mental health advocate in the workplace, sorely needed. So that’s incredible mission that you’re on, Michelle, so thank you.
Michelle D:
Thank you. Thank you, Warwick.
Gary S:
I have been in the communication business long enough to know when the last word has been spoken on a subject and that was it. The plane has landed. And I’m going to offer a personal reason why I know the plane has landed because on the floor, my feet are perfectly flat. That is something. On the first plane ride I ever took, my dad taught me when I was nervous, when the plane lands, put your feet on the floor flat. And I still do it to this day when I fly.
Gary S:
So, the plane has landed and the conversation has ended. I have for you, listener, I have three takeaways from our conversation with Michelle Dickinson. One, don’t rush the process. There’s not a statute of limitations on your crucible. Moving beyond it is not something you have to do with a time clock ticking. As Warwick puts it often, focus on continuing to take one small step at a time as you chart your course back from your crucible and on to your life of significance.
Gary S:
Takeaway number two, comfort is not always comfortable. And it’s not always our calling. We’re not always called to comfort. Listen to the voice in your head. Listen to your heart. Listen to the tug that is pulling you into something that might be a bit audacious, that might be a bit outside the box, that could be scary. That may very well be your life of significance calling out to you. Explore it and find out if that’s the case, and if it is, buckle up and get going.
Gary S:
The third takeaway we’ve not discussed, but it’s too good to not discuss. We have guests fill out forms before we interview them and we asked some questions. And one of the questions we ask is what’s one bit of advice you’d offer listeners to help them overcome their own crucible experiences and live a life of significance? What is a critical action you believe they can take to find hope and healing after a setback?
Gary S:
Michelle has just given the best answer I’ve ever read to that through 73 or four episodes. This is what she wrote, the third takeaway from today’s episode. Life is always happening for us, even when it appears crappy. Know that it is serving us something we can learn from. We are stronger than any circumstance. And you, listener, are stronger than the crucible that you have been through.
Gary S:
So, until the next time we are together, please remember that that crucible that you’ve gone through, maybe it’s crucibles that you’ve gone through, they are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning of your story, because they can lead to, once that chapter is completed, as you move beyond your crucible, they can lead to the most rewarding chapter of your life because that life will lead, when the final period is placed on the final sentence in the final chapter of your book, it leads to a life of significance.
Shawn Harper has learned from his crucibles – which include extreme poverty as a boy, suffering from learning disabilities and being kicked out of two schools – that the only way to move beyond those challenges is to move through them. What he discovered on the journey changed his life – leading first to an NFL football career and now professional fulfillment as a business owner and sought-after motivational speaker. But don’t call him a success. That’s a word and a pursuit, he says, that’s rooted in image, not reality. It’s something you chase but never achieve. So for Harper the goal is winning, which he defines as pouring yourself into your hopes and dreams and making a difference in the lives of others where and when you can. In Crucible Leadership terms, that means living a life of significance.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Shawn H:
I was not going to be defined by the pain. And I was going to take the power from the pain. That is the only thing really that separates a superhero from normal people, outside of talent, is that they see the pain, they see the villain, they see the buildings being blown up, everyone is running one way, and they decide to run the other way into it. That is it right there. The calling card to greatness is adversity. And you have to make a decision. Do you run from it? Do you cower away from it? Or do you set your sail, and it seems like it’s impossible, but you fight through it? You fight to it, and you fight through it.
Gary S:
So, which way do you run? When you’re hit by crucibles do you keep the pain and loss at arm’s length, or do you lean into the lessons those setbacks and failures can teach you?
Gary S:
Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. This week’s guest, Shawn Harper, has learned from his crucibles, which include extreme poverty as a boy, suffering from learning disabilities, and being kicked out of two schools, that the only way to move beyond those challenges is to move through them. What he learned by doing so changed his life, leading first to an NFL football career, and now professional fulfillment as a business owner and sought-after motivational speaker. But don’t call him a success. That’s a word and a pursuit, he says, that’s rooted in image, not reality. It’s something you chase, but never achieve.
Gary S:
So, for Shawn, the goal is winning, which he defines as pouring yourself into your hopes and dreams and making a difference in the lives of others where and when you can. In Crucible Leadership terms, you’ll discover in this conversation with Warwick, it’s his way of describing and living a life of significance.
Warwick F:
Well, Shawn, thanks so much for being here, and super excited to have you, and love talking about your book, The Winning Edge. And you have a particular, different definition of winning. You’re a business leader, speaker, author, and former NFL player.
Warwick F:
So, before we get to all that, I’d love to hear a bit about the backstory, the origin story of Shawn Harper. Kind of where you grew up. And I know you mentioned you grew up in Columbus, Ohio, which, as you know, I mentioned I’m from Australia. My wife actually is also from Ohio, but nearer Northeast, Ohio. Youngstown. So, her family were all obviously Browns fans, being that part of Ohio. So, yeah. Just tell us a bit about Shawn Harper, and how you grew up, and your parents, and yeah, just sort of the backstory.
Shawn H:
All right. Okay. So, I’m going to make an attempt to not only explain my story, but I’m going to have it to segue into the whole winning concept. And before I go any further, thank you guys for having me. Thank you for this opportunity. And I pray that it would be a blessing, that it can not only affect, but infect thousands.
Shawn H:
I was born and raised on the South Side of Columbus, Ohio. And most people, when they think of NFL professional athletes or even business leaders, they have this concept of this person being all-star, all-AAU, all-intergalactic universe, and all that stuff. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Shawn H:
I had to repeat the first grade. Learning challenges throughout my entire life. Documented with four to five learning disabilities. Single-parent family. We weren’t poor; we were “po”. That’s a big difference. It’s a different level of being in poverty. The whole government cheese. It was really bad. And stuttering my entire life. Could not complete a sentence until college. Being kicked out of two schools because of disciplinary issues.
Shawn H:
I wasn’t a bad boy; I was a mad boy. And there’s a big difference between bad and mad. I just relished the opportunity to just vent the anger of not having a father, being in poverty, not having opportunities afforded to me, or thinking that I can never achieve these opportunities. It feels like you’re just being emotionally emasculated at that point or in that juncture of my life anyway.
Shawn H:
After being kicked out of my second school, I went to Independence High School in Columbus, Ohio. I was a sub-average athlete. Barely started. I wasn’t even honorable mention all conference. I was the guy that would get the participation trophy. I was the butt of everyone’s jokes. Just hit with adversity, after adversity, after adversity.
Shawn H:
The thing about adversity that I love is that it can break you. It often breaks you. But it also can make you a record-breaker. And the difference is your perspective of the challenges and of the adversity that you’re going through.
Shawn H:
I was headed off into the sunset of just being a sub-average, impoverished young man. And then the phone rings. The phone rings and there’s a junior college, a two-year school in Mason City, Iowa. And the coach is like, “Shawn, I want you to come to Iowa to play football.” And I’m like, “I’m from the hood. I’m from the South Side of Columbus. And you want me to go down to the corn fields? Literally, between two corn fields. You want me to play football?” Click. I hung up.
Shawn H:
Something happened in that moment though. The dream of one day playing professional sports began to germinate, began to move, and it’s like, “Call that coach back.” And I said, “Coach, if you’ll have me, I’ll come.”
Shawn H:
And I go up to Mason City, Iowa. Like 26,000 blonde hair, blue eyes. Everyone’s last name is Schneider. I mean, like-
Gary S:
Hey, wait a minute. That’s close to Schneeberger.
Shawn H:
There it is. German.
Gary S:
Hey, man.
Shawn H:
I’m sitting here and I’m like, “What in the world?” But in the moment, after the first season or towards the end of the first season, I had this epiphany and it went something like this. You’re right. I can’t be successful. I don’t have the grades. I don’t have this. I listed like nine things that I was lacking. You don’t have that. You’re not even starting now. It’s not going to happen. But I can win. And the moment I said that, it was like my body, things began to switch on, there’s lights, and wait a second, that’s a different perspective. Success is blocked, but winning, you can win.
Shawn H:
And when I made that connection, not comment as much, but the connection, I began to connect with the DNA of who I am and, in my opinion, who every human being is, and that is that they are born winners. One out of three, four million sperm cells, you’re the one that fertilized the egg. You are the winner. Which is why we love gambling. Well, I don’t, but people do. Which is why people love sports. It’s because they love to win. It’s not about success; it’s about winning. That has been hijacked. And so, my new model is now, if life is a game, you play to win.
Shawn H:
And once I adopted that, I began to move through different avenues to MacGyver life, MacGyver opportunities. Went to Indiana. Draft Day in NFL. Third pick in the fourth round. Opened up companies. Began to speak. And I used that winning perspective and the winning mindset from the locker room to the boardroom.
Warwick F:
Well, I mean, that’s an amazing journey. I mean, for a lot of folks, they’re probably thinking, “Yeah, you said you weren’t a bad kid; you were mad.” I can, I wouldn’t say understand, at least not experientially because as I mentioned I’m from a pretty privileged background in Australia. But when you grow up with a single parent in a tough neighborhood, I could understand why it’s like, “Life isn’t fair,” you know?
Shawn H:
Right.
Warwick F:
It’s like whether it’s poverty, injustice, all of the things that I’m sure is sadly very normal, how do you get over mad? Because some people, they stay in mad, and they never get over mad, and they say, “This isn’t fair. And this isn’t right,” which is a true statement. It’s not fair. It’s not right, being a single parent growing up in a poor neighborhood. But how did you change from mad? Because not everybody does.
Shawn H:
Right. So, once you make the statement, “This is not fair,” now you have to make a decision. And the decision is, do you settle with the fact that it’s not fair and you create excuses and you become a victim? Or do you say, “You know what? It might not be fair, but I’m going to make the best out of it. And I’m going to win.” And you become a victor.
Shawn H:
Oftentimes, adversity, the pressure, the pain is fuel. And if you push against it, if you fight against it, you begin to take and extract power from it. And then you begin to move through it.
Shawn H:
One of the worst things that I’ve seen is to give a person a huge win in life or “a huge success in life”, maybe $12 million or instant fame, and they haven’t earned it. They haven’t fought through the process to appreciate it, or the adversity is so tough when they get there they can’t deal with it because they weren’t primed as they were coming up through the process. Stop aborting the process.
Gary S:
I have probably, and I’m not exaggerating. If I am, only a little bit. I probably have 25 quotes of yours written down on pieces of paper here. And one of them, and I can’t find them right now because there’s too many pieces of paper and the type is too squeezed together. But you said, either in your book or in an interview, you said that we’re not born winners or losers; we’re born choosers.
Shawn H:
Yes. And so, I have to actually redact that because…
Gary S:
Oh, okay. Well, it’s breaking news.
Shawn H:
Yes. Well, no, I have been saying that for about two years now because I’m a winner, and I just now have to manifest and to move in, and to behave like I really am. And that, to me, is probably one of the greatest steps to achieving greatness in life is your self-concept.
Shawn H:
Who are you? Because let me tell you something. If you don’t know who you are, you’re who they say you are. And once the world can brand you and label you, it has all authority over you. “You can never grow past your name”, which is why in the good book, this is why in the word of God, when God wanted to do something extraordinary, the first thing he did was tell them what I’m going to do, and then he changed the person’s name.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Like from Abram to Abraham; Sarai to Sarah. I mean, there’s a lot of examples.
Shawn H:
Saul.
Warwick F:
Yeah, Saul to Paul. Exactly. And so, what was the key moment for you as you were growing up, maybe it was junior college, where you went from being mad, this is unfair, to you know what, it may be unfair, but you changed your self-concept, you changed almost the definition of winning? What was that key moment in which you made a shift in your thinking, a significant shift?
Shawn H:
Okay. So, after, I’m Shawn, this is who you are, you’re a winner, let’s go for it, I began to do what winners do. And one of the things that I’ve noticed that winners do is that winners separate themselves. They always separate themselves. That’s what makes them a winner is that they are distinct.
Shawn H:
And so, I’m in Columbus, Ohio, and I’m like, “This is what I want to do. I have to go back to school.” And so, I packed my bags. I went back early. I went back like four months early. I’m in a hot, sweaty, stinky college dorm room. And I’m practicing twice a day. I’m taking summer courses. And I’m practicing twice a day. I left Columbus, by myself in a dorm room, and I practiced twice a day.
Shawn H:
When camp time came around, I was so much further ahead. I studied the plays. I learned the schemes. I learned the offense. Then I took 22 hours in one semester. That’s crazy. 22 hours in one semester. I was able to graduate a half semester early, which made me more marketable to Division I, which I was going for, Division I schools. You’d get me six months early. And that is the strategy and the tactic that I took was separation.
Shawn H:
I wrote 200 colleges. Well, truth of the matter, I wrote one letter and I xeroxed it 200 times. I signed it though, just to make myself, this is who I am. I put myself out there. The phone began to ring. I had more options. And winners focus on separation.
Warwick F:
Wow. And so, was there a mentor? Or what led you to make that decision when you were in junior college in Iowa, that I’m going to go there early, I’m going to look at the playbook? You made a decision. Was there any outside influence? Or you just said, “You know what, today’s the day I’m going to change the course of my life”?
Shawn H:
I was going through a breakup, and I said, “You know what? I’m out of here. I’m out of here. I’m going to focus on going to the next level. I’m going to focus on me. I’m going to get myself together.” And I packed my bags. I jumped on a Greyhound business. 22 hours. And I landed back in Mason City, Iowa.
Warwick F:
And would you say that’s when you changed your self-concept, where maybe life’s not fair, but I’m not going to be a victim, to use your words, I’m going to be a victor?
Warwick F:
I mean, you mentioned before, life’s about choices. You made a choice. You made a profound choice. And that’s one of the things that comes up a lot in Crucible Leadership that… we’ve had folks, like a Navy SEAL that was injured, became a paraplegic in a training accident. We’ve had victims of abuse. We’ve had business failures. Every kind of crucible. And some things like physical challenges, some things you actually can’t fix, but the attitude… that’s a good example, where that’s never fair when you suffer a physical challenge. That’s never right. But yet, they’ve all changed their mindset, in your words, their self-concept. And so, in that sense, using your definition of winners, they’re winners because they make a choice not to be defined by their circumstances or their crucible.
Warwick F:
And it sounds like that’s what you did, right? You were not going to be defined by your background. You were going to choose your own path and your own self-concept.
Shawn H:
Right. I was not going to be defined by the pain. And I was going to take the power from the pain. That is the only thing really that separates a superhero from normal people, outside of talent, is that they see the pain, they see the villain, they see the buildings being blown up, everyone is running one way, and they decide to run the other way into it. That is it right there is that the calling card to greatness is adversity. And you have to make a decision. Do you run from it? Do you cower away from it? Or do you set your sail, and it seems like it’s impossible, but you fight through it. You fight to it, and you fight through it.
Gary S:
This is a perfect segue into something that I’ve wanted to do since I read both The Winning Edge by you, Shawn Harper. And Warwick has his book, Crucible Leadership, coming out in October. And I wanted to read just a couple of snippets about failure that you both write about. It’s like you’re looking at each other’s homework or something.
Gary S:
Here’s from your book, Shawn, what you wrote about failure. “Failure is your friend. Failure is where the lessons are learned. Failure is where you make your adjustments. Unfortunately, people run as fast as they can from failure. They shield their lives from failure. They won’t grow and experience the opportunities. They’re taught not to fail.” You add, “You must be willing to fail. If not, you can’t grow.”
Gary S:
Warwick writes in Crucible Leadership, “Failure can be of great value. It can be the most refining time of your life. Difficult experiences can change you. In a sense, they can make or break you. Choose the path that makes you better, more whole, and a more resilient version of yourself. Failures and setbacks, your crucible moments, can feel like insurmountable obstacles, causing you to feel stuck or lost, but they can also offer an introspective inflection point that moves you toward more effective leadership and a life of significance.” That’s the life, that’s the path you both are on. And that you’re encouraging others to be on. Fair?
Shawn H:
Fair. In order for you to win, in order for you to play the game, you have to be willing to lose. And that right there is the question that you have to ask yourself. If life is a game, you’re going to play the game to win. When you step on that court, when you step on that field, it doesn’t matter how prepared you are, how much shape you’re in. What’s the odds in the back of your mind there is a chance, are you prepared to lose? When you invest, you don’t invest money you’re not willing to lose. Are you prepared to lose?
Shawn H:
And listen to this. The more you’re willing to lose, in some instances it makes you a very powerful and dangerous person. It makes you very powerful but dangerous because if you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. It’s like, “You know what, I am willing to lose this.”
Shawn H:
Now, what it’s like is, is you’re around a table full of people who are playing poker. And that person grabs six or seven chips. And they take both hands and they push them in the middle and they say, “I am all in.” And what do you do with that? “I’m all in. I’m willing to lose. Are you?” Woo. Then the lessons that you can extract from that, the techniques, the strategies, the relationships that are developed in that. We love the mountain top, but there’s water in the valley, baby. The lessons that you learn from that it’s…
Shawn H:
Listen, the average millionaire, according to Google, has filed for bankruptcy 3.2 times. If you look it up on Google and say “Google millionaire”, it says 3.2 times they have filed for bankruptcy. They have failed according to the world standards.
Shawn H:
In our educational system, I’m going to take a shot at it because they have conditioned us to fear failure. “Joe, you got a ‘F’ on your test. You don’t get a smiley face. Oh, too bad. You’re bad.” Versus, “Hey, we have a great learning opportunity here.” When I failed the first grade I had to repeat the first grade. Man, it was horrible. For years, I carried that. I carried that for years. We don’t value failure. And yet, that’s how we learn how to walk and ride a bike.
Warwick F:
Wow. I mean, that is so profound because a lot of people fear failure. And when they fail, they’re also not willing to learn lessons.
Warwick F:
I’m sure you know way more about football than I do, but you’re an offensive lineman. And let’s say you’re up against some all-pro, which I’m sure you’ve been many times, and they get by you and the quarterback gets sacked. Okay, well, that’s technically a failure. Well, you could say, “Well, okay, I’m up against one of the greatest pass rushers in history. And, of course, I’m going to get beat,” rather than, “Okay, I got beat. What lessons do I need to learn about technique and positioning?” And it’s like, “Okay, I got beat that one time. Well, it doesn’t mean I’m a failure, but what can I learn? What lessons can I learn from it?” Rather than some people, when they fail say, “Well, gee, I was up against so-and-so, all-star pro. Of course, I got beat. There’s no lessons because, heck, nobody could block that person.” That would be a different way of looking at it. But you choose the first path, which is, “Okay, if I got beat, I lost that game. In sports, very few people have won every game in high school and the pros have ever played in. That’s almost impossible. You’re always going to lose at some point.” So, you lean into failure.
Warwick F:
So, talk about what did that look like in your life in terms of not being afraid of failure, embracing it, leaning into the pain, and learning from it. How did that look for you?
Shawn H:
I’m still afraid of failure. You know what I’m saying? But you just do it anyway. I’m nervous about some stuff. I’m nervous about investments, but you do it anyway, you know?
Warwick F:
Right.
Shawn H:
Yeah. I mean, no one… which kind of leads into a totally different area, but it’s like we fear death, but that’s where the growth is. Failure is death to your reputation, death to your brand, death to your perceived value. But in that death, there’s life. And you have to go through it. You have to go through the canal of death to see the life.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I don’t know if this gets into winning versus success, but I know for me I look at it as… my failure, which in my case was sort of epic proportion, $2.25 billion failure in a sense of… that was the value of the takeover. The 150-dollar company ending on my watch. Maybe it’s my faith perspective, but I don’t look at that as… that $2 billion failure doesn’t define me. Yes, my Wikipedia entry is young, hot-headed kid, could have had it all, but lost it. That’s kind of what it says. For me, as a person of faith, my self-worth, my persona is based on God loves me unconditionally for who I am as a human being, not for my achievements. So, I try to separate my self-esteem from what I’m actually doing. So, whether I win or lose in any particular event, that doesn’t define me. I’m not defined by a game or an event. Does that kind of make sense? How would you look at it in your terms about not letting failure define you?
Shawn H:
That’s why the self-concept is so important because that is something that you’ve created, you’ve defined, and you protect. That is something that nothing in this world’s operational system has authority over is I am a winner. That happened before I was born. I’m a winner period. That’s number one.
Shawn H:
And what we do is that we tend to, or our society tends to, encourage to define what you do as who you are. And they try to create that distinction or that connection so tight. And you know what? I’ve struggled with that as well. And I have to push back on that because now it affects your decisions. It really affects your decisions. Do you keep the company? Do you let the company go? Do you do this or… well, you know what? If you’re willingly going to sacrifice yourself because it’s who you are, well, then dag gone it starts to mess with your decision-making.
Shawn H:
But the second thing about winning is, is that you don’t have to win all four quarters to win the game. You don’t have to win the first half. You could lose until the last six or seven minutes in the second half. That’s been done in the Bible throughout. And so, with you, with me, with other people, it’s like the game is not over. The game’s not over.
Shawn H:
And plus, if the game is over and you don’t see to proceed victory, we’re running a relay. So, I done handed this bad boy off to tons of people. And they’re running. And catch them if you can.
Warwick F:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), no, absolutely. So, I want to ask about this. You use this fascinating distinction between success versus winning. And life’s about winning, not success. Now, how do you see the difference between those things?
Shawn H:
Okay. So, as I mentioned earlier about you are created to win. So, if you think about the games that we played growing up, they were win-lose games. The whole thing was based off of, “Hey, win kickball. Lose kickball, badminton.” Everything is win/lose.
Shawn H:
And then around the third or fourth grade, by the time you find out that Santa Claus is not real, they introduce another concept and this concept is called success. And this concept is basically not about win or lose anymore. This concept is about something that’s not static; it’s moveable. You can shift it.
Shawn H:
And then they do what I think is probably the most damning of all, they define what success is. And then they tell you how to achieve it. So, in the US success is money and wealth, for the most part. Recently, it’s likes and popularity on social media. But up until then, it’s money and wealth and fame. And this is how you get it: primarily through education. And this is what you have to do. And you have to live here in this subdivision or in that subdivision. And you know what? Being a missionary, it’s a noble idea, but you won’t be successful being a missionary. Being a pastor, let’s just be a doctor or a lawyer. Let’s have some prestige because that is what society deems as success.
Shawn H:
The problem is, as I mentioned earlier, is that it’s not static, which means that I could have $4 million in Columbus, Ohio. I’m doing okay. I’ll take $4 million downtown Manhattan, I’m probably average. You take $4 million to Dubai, you are broke.
Shawn H:
And so, now, since it’s not static, which means that it’s a moving carrot. You’re always chasing the carrot. You’re always trying to become what you really are. You’re chasing. You’re trying to become.
Shawn H:
Winning is the fullest expression. It takes away the become, and it focuses on the believe in the being you are. So, you manifest who you are. Winning is the fullest expression of who you are mentally, socially, emotionally, financially and, to me, most important, legacy. That’s the fullest expression of who you are.
Shawn H:
Success focuses on production. Winning focuses on reproduction. It is congruent with nature. You have a talent. You have who you are. And you reproduce that. You encourage. You reproduce that. You, sir, you’ve gone through adversity. You’ve gone through challenges, both of you probably. And now you’re reproducing it with the lessons that you’ve learned.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I love what you’re saying. I mean, you often hear the phrase “moving the goalposts”. Well, success, it’s like you think you’re in the end zone, but you’re not. They just moved it 50 yards. And it’s often the case that success is defined by other people. So, in business, okay, you made a million. Well, what about 10 million? What about a billion? It’s like gee, you may be doing well, but you’re not at a Bill Gates level or Jeff Bezos.
Warwick F:
In sports, there’s always somebody better, quicker, faster. I’m a big tennis fan and Roger Federer fan. He’s won 20 majors. Well, Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic are on his heels. Rafael Nadal, they call him the King of Clay. He’s playing in the French Open as we speak. Absent something incredible, he is likely to win the French Open, move to 21 Grand Slams, and beat Roger Federer. So, it’s like if Roger Federer’s ego was defined as being the greatest of all time, which in tennis means the most majors of all time, then he’s in trouble. Or in football, it’s like how many Super Bowls have you won? Have you won any? If you’ve won some, have you won more than any other player that’s ever played? And even then, then you start debating, well, maybe it’s easier now than it was. And you never win that debate about the greatest of all time. There’s always somebody who says, “Yeah, but… ” yeah, but. And so, if your image is defined on that, you’re in trouble
Shawn H:
And what makes it really sad is two things. Number one… well, three things. Most of us, including myself, I’m like really praying about this. Most of us will lose our calling because God didn’t call our image; God called our identity. He has you here for a season, and he has you here for a reason. That’s number one.
Shawn H:
Number two, when we pursue the success game, we tend to sacrifice the other three or four that I mentioned. We sacrifice our health. We sacrifice our relationships with our family. We sacrifice so much to achieve one or two or three things.
Shawn H:
And the last is that we lose so much. We lose a lot of time. And time is the one thing you cannot get back. We lose it because we’re chasing a carrot.
Warwick F:
You know what you said is, again, forgive me for keep saying this, but so profound. I mean, I’ll probably use the “P” word a few more times, but yeah. I mean, identity versus success and calling. I mean, in a faith perspective, we get that, but there’s a lot of people that don’t. Every once in a while, I am amongst other things certified executive coach, and people will say, “Hey, I just sold my business or I left my job. I’d love to just chat as a friend.” And say, “Okay, that’s fine.” We’ll have lunch. And I’ll ask them, what are their skills, and what are their passions, and usual stuff. And then if they’re a believer I’ll say, “So, how does what you’re thinking of doing, how does that fulfill a kingdom purpose?” which is a faith-based way of saying “calling”.
Warwick F:
What saddens me is 9 times out of 10, not only will they not know how what they do will fulfill a kingdom purpose, they won’t even understand the question. It’s as if I’ve just said, “Explain to me quantum mechanics or nuclear physics.” They’ll be like, “What did you just say?” And in a broader sense, it would be saying to people, “Tell me what your calling is.” I mean, how many people do you know, if you ask, “What is your calling?” I feel like a lot of people are like, “I don’t know. Never thought about it,” you know?
Shawn H:
Right.
Warwick F:
I’m a doctor. I’m an accountant. I’m a football player. I’m a missionary. Okay, but whatever. But what’s your calling? You know what I’m saying? I mean, that’s not something people think about.
Shawn H:
Wow. It’s unfortunate because the success model hijacks their worldview. And once your worldview is hijacked, it’s like you have on glasses and you see everything through those lenses. So, now it’s to the point where calling and purpose and destiny is not even in the picture. You can’t even see that. Christianity or faith period is something that is like an accessory to a nice jacket versus being the pulse or the-
Warwick F:
Yeah. It’s something you do on a Sunday, but it has nothing to do with what you do the rest of the week, you know?
Shawn H:
Yeah, yeah.
Gary S:
What’s fascinating to me about this conversation, if I can jump in, what’s fascinating to me about this conversation, and because we’re in the area of football a little bit, I’ll pull out some football analogies. You guys are both talking from the same playbook. You’re using different plays out of that playbook, but you have the same, let’s say, offensive coordinator. God has directed you both down this path.
Gary S:
Shawn, you talk about winning. Warwick, you talk about a life of significance. You both talk about the importance of leaving behind a legacy. And you both talk about things that can steal that, that idea, Warwick, for you, of being the G.O.A.T. can rob you of those things that lead to a legacy you can be proud. What you talked about, Shawn, the success and chasing the money and the prestige, that saps your relationships, that ends up ultimately in the end sapping your legacy. Warwick, you say it’s about a life of significance. Shawn, you say it’s about winning. You guys are both… it’s the exact same playbook; it’s just different plays within it.
Gary S:
And I think, I hope, listeners, you’re catching that, that despite their different backgrounds, their different crucibles, their different experiences, they are both mapping out plays, if you will, of how you win, how you have a life of significance. Lean into that. Learn from that. And apply that in your own life.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, as you’re talking, and I love the word “legacy” that you used, Shawn, and Gary just mentioned. It occurs to me, if somebody, a family member was to give a eulogy for you or me or anybody, it’d be interesting to ask, “So, what would a winning legacy look like for you?” And that begins to backtrack into calling, and what does that look like?
Warwick F:
And I’m sure you have in your mind what a winning legacy would be like for Shawn Harper, for when your kids are there giving your eulogy. And you want them to be proud of you. You want them to think, “You know what? Dad was pretty awesome. Yeah, he was a good football player, but he was a whole lot more than football. And this is who my dad was,” kind of thing. That’s what we all live for rather than, “Okay, he won some Super Bowl rings or he didn’t,” or, “He was all-pro offensive lineman or not.” It’s like they’re not going to really care about any of that stuff. It’s going to be a bunch of other things that they would define as a winning legacy, don’t you think?
Shawn H:
Yeah. In fact, I just had that experience about four days ago. I attended the funeral of my mother. We buried her this past Saturday. And the place was packed. And she was 82. 82 years of age. But the legacy…
Shawn H:
And I gave a story on social media about that, about me having the first major meal without my mom. And I’m sitting in the kitchen, this is funny, I’m sitting in the kitchen, and I’m looking at this pot. I’m looking at this pot. And I’m like, “Why am I keep… I keep staring at this pot?” And I realized that I don’t know how to make the gravy. But my mind races back to when I was six years old, and how I would sit in the kitchen, and my mom would make gravy and other things. And she would talk to me all day.
Shawn H:
And I just replayed the moment, replayed the flour, replayed all the ingredients. And I was able to make the gravy, once I was able to move past the grief. And that there’s grief in the gravy. And that gravy is the legacy. Edith Harper is gone. There was never a cookbook. And it was nothing she never taught me. I just watched. I watched. I can soon learn to do it, if you’ll let me see me done; I could watch your hand in motion, but your tongue too fast may run. I watched her make gravy. I watched her live life. And now I’m teaching my son how to cook now. And I’m allowing that to come through.
Shawn H:
So, at the funeral, the winner, the people who win, or to measure the win, is when you look around at the people and you see a little piece of Edith Harper in everyone around. You know what? The legacy continues from her mom, to her, to my kids. That’s the win.
Warwick F:
That’s amazing. So, when you think of your mom, what were some of the elements of, I guess you just outlined some of it, but her legacy? I mean, she didn’t grow up with a lot of money, but yet she left a powerful inheritance in the broad sense of that word, in the spiritual sense. She was wealthy in the kingdom, perhaps. So, what were some of those aspects, would you say, of her legacy?
Shawn H:
One of the greatest aspects of Mom’s legacy, and as you know I am a believer, is that she taught me about the spirit realm. She taught me about prayer and about warfare, getting up three, four o’clock in the morning, praying through things.
Shawn H:
I remember, after my father divorced my mom. That’s the first thing. The second thing is, is that she cried out to God. She said, “God, how am I going to make it?” And she said God told her, “If you give 20 bucks to the poor every single month, I will take care of you and all your six/seven kids. They will never want for anything, if you take care of my kingdom.”
Shawn H:
And so, she made me cognizant of the spirit world, how you sow, how you give, how you pray, how you forgive. She taught me the keys or the rules of the kingdom, which has allowed me to navigate life to the point where people are like, “How the heck are you even at this juncture?” It’s not me. I know the system and I know the rules because Mama taught me the rules.
Gary S:
I’m going to jump in, Shawn, only because my father died two weeks ago. So, I know what you’re talking about when you talk about sort of the terrible tenderness, the savage sweetness of those kinds of moments. And my dad, very similarly to what you just described your mom as doing, she wasn’t necessarily… she wasn’t pulling you aside and saying, “Here, Son, here’s how you cook.” You watched her. She spent time with you.
Gary S:
My dad, similar kind of situation. And part of what we’ve been talking about here is that when you chase success, your time goes there, your time is pulled away from your loved ones, and that can degrade that legacy in the eyes of children. The thing that stands out for me about my dad, as a Christian man who spent the early 2000s in church, in evangelical churches, that was the era of the men’s group, the men’s retreat. And men would always get together on the weekends. Men would get together. They’d haul off, they’d steal our watches, and we would sit around. But one of the things that happened in there is I always heard men say, or I frequently heard men say, “My dad never told me he loved me. I didn’t know my dad loved me.”
Gary S:
And I didn’t… I mean, I had some issues with my dad in certain areas, but I didn’t have that one. My dad told me, from the moment I could understand what it meant, that he loved me. And he spent time with me, but he also, he showed me and he told me. And that made all the difference in the world in who I became in terms of being okay with my emotions, being able to express love for people, being able to do that. That’s his legacy.
Gary S:
His legacy is my relationship with my stepchildren. That’s where that comes from. And he didn’t set out to do that. That wasn’t on his to-do list. He just spent time with his son. And that is what is so important about this discussion, is take the time to focus on the things that are going to matter when everything else burns up, as the Bible says. That’s where legacy is born.
Shawn H:
Yeah. I have never talked to an individual, 70-plus years of age, and had him or her talk about their portfolio and net worth. They always open up pictures, “These are my grandkids. This is this.” They always focus on things that we should have focused on in our 20s and 30s. And I don’t want to be that person. And I don’t want anyone listening to be that person, to take the last four or five years of their life with maybe oxygen or living in a home somewhere, talking about wisha, coulda, shoulda. That regret is… man, there’s… wow, the pain of regret is like a slow churn in your soul. You don’t want-
Warwick F:
Yeah. That’s one of the things we talk about is live your legacy today. There’s a song that obviously everybody’s familiar with, the Cat’s in the Cradle by Cat Stevens. And it’s a haunting song because the refrain is the son says, “Hey, can we spend some time, Dad?” “Aw, we’ll do it soon. We’ll do it soon.” And he’s always busy. And then the son grows up. And the dad’s older and says, “Hey, Son, I’d love to spend some time… ” “Aw, Dad, I’d love to. The kids. And I’m just rising in my career. And I’m sorry, but what we’ll do it again soon, Dad. We’ll do it again soon.” You don’t want to be that dad, where you spend no time with your kids. You’re not doing the things that you love.
Warwick F:
And so, whether you’re 70 years old or 20 years old, think about what legacy, how you define your life, significance, what does winning look like to you, and live that today. Don’t define success based on what other people think it should be.
Warwick F:
If you’re a football player, maybe it’s winning Super Bowls or maybe it’s like, “I want to be the best I can be, but if I win a Super Bowl, great. If not, that’s okay. But my self-image is more than football or more than business. It’s I’m going to play. I’m going to do my best, but I’m not defined by other people’s expectations.” I mean, does that kind of make sense in terms of legacy?
Shawn H:
All the sense in the world. And unfortunately, the state of the world, I put it all on the fact that we didn’t care about our legacy.
Warwick F:
Right. And it’s funny, people chase success. There’s that old fable, if you will, of the anthill, where ants are crawling all over each other to get to the top. And one ant says to the other, “What are we doing? Where are we going?” He says, “I don’t know. It must be good because everybody else is climbing to the top.”
Warwick F:
And you get to the top, and it’s like individual success is never fulfilling. I mean, I’ve had big failures, but my undergrad was at Oxford. Worked on Wall Street. And then graduated from Harvard Business School. Well, Oxford, Harvard Business School. Sounds good. And I suppose I’m proud of it in a way, but does that make me happy and more fulfilled? Not really. I mean, it’s a thing.
Shawn H:
But see, that in itself is your ministry. And also, it’s my ministry because we’ve tasted it.
Shawn H:
They are selling this. They are branding this. They’re packaging this to 99% of all the people. “This is where you have to go. You got to go to this university. And you have to make it to this. You have to be at the tip. And once you get to the tippy, tippy, tippy top, you get to meet the wizard,” right? It’s just like… Or, “Once you make it to the NFL, wham, you have it. That’s the life. Let’s push everybody towards that wealth.”
Shawn H:
And I’ve tasted it. And you’ve tasted it. And now we can turn back and say, “It’s not what it’s cracked up to be.”
Warwick F:
Well, I mean, you would know better than I, but how many NFL players, some make obviously enormous amounts of money and they lose it. They have the cars, and maybe the girlfriends and the wives. And you wonder how many of them feel fulfilled and joyful. Maybe some do, but it’s like it feels like fool’s gold. Yeah, they may have more money than they… but it’s like are they really happy and fulfilled in the broad sense of the word? And I don’t know, it’s almost sad. Do you know what I mean?
Shawn H:
Yeah. It’s a whole new level of fear now because now you have to keep it. And now, everyone else is watching you to make… are you going to keep it? Or how can I exploit it from you?
Shawn H:
But to have that level, to actually be at that level, and then to come off of the mountain unscathed and say, “Hey guys, they’re not going to tell you this, but I’m going to tell you,” and you’re going to tell them, us, that it’s not in that. It is in your family. It is in your relationships. It is in your health. It is in this, these moments, living in the now. This is what it’s all about. I’ve already been behind the wall. I’ve seen the wizard. He’s a little man. So, stop spending your entire life on the yellow brick road.
Warwick F:
It’s being. It’s being; not doing. I mean, one of the things that I mentioned, which sounds crazy, and fortunately my publisher is a person of faith, and understands. I have a book coming out in October, Crucible Leadership. And I’ve said to him, “Look, I don’t care how many books I sell. If it’s zero or 10,000 or 100. What I feel called to do is be faithful, do my level best to obviously hopefully make it successful.” I have a great team, including Gary. But my goal is not book sales; it’s to be faithful to the calling that God has put on my life. I’m not going to be saved by a book. It’s a book. I’ve spent 12 years writing it. I mean, blood… It includes pain and suffering, but my self-image is not going to be defined by book sales, you know?
Shawn H:
Right.
Warwick F:
That’s got nothing to do with my image. I mean, I’m doing my level best to try and make it successful, but it’s just trying to… how do you help people understand that their self-image is not based on book sales or football game wins? Or how do you get people to open their eyes and have that maybe Paul-Road-to-Damascus moment? How do you get them to see you that?
Shawn H:
Well, you have to destroy the word “image” first. It’s the image that you have to destroy. See, once you are void of identity, then you subconsciously develop an image. And now, whoever has the power over the image has power over you. So, now, image is external; identity is internal. And it’s supposed to come from the eternal, right? So, check it out. When you develop a strong sense of identity, the image loses its power. So, the world has a vested interest of destroying your internal identity in the hopes that you would spend all your energies, psyche, resources to have the image. And once you live an image-based life, then the world system has you because it’s all… yeah, it’s all external.
Warwick F:
One final beat on this. Because I think from our perspective, your identity, if you’re a person of faith, need to be based on God. And the the Bible is very clear on that.
Warwick F:
If you’re not a person of faith, you’ve got to connect your identity with your fundamental beliefs and values. Most people’s beliefs and values, they’re typically not, I don’t know, greed, money, whatever it is. Typically, people aren’t living what they believe themselves. Whatever you believe, your fundamental beliefs, you want your identity to be tied to that, not to success.
Warwick F:
And you’ve just got to make… as you said, life is about choice. You’ve got to make that choice. Are you going to define your life based on success or winning in the sense you use? Is it going to be defined on identity, ideally tied to God or some other fundamental belief? Your identity is what the game’s all about, right?
Shawn H:
It is.
Warwick F:
The ultimate winning and losing is, you going to win the battle of identity or lose it? Well, it’s your choice.
Shawn H:
That’s where it is. All actions stems from thoughts. All thoughts come from your belief. And your belief is nestled in, as Maxwell Maltz says in the book, Psycho-Cybernetics, in your self-concept.
Shawn H:
And since we’re talking about God, we’ll take it one step further. In order to really be your self-concept, your being, it’s what you are belonged to. So, it’s become, belief, be, and belong.
Gary S:
We have arrived at that point in the show, gentlemen, where I normally say, “The captain’s turned on the fasten seatbelt sign,” but because I have a former NFL player as our guest, I’m going to say, it’s the two-minute warning, guys. We’ve got just a little bit of time left before the final gun goes off. I sound like I’m doing an announcer voice. That’s weird.
Gary S:
I’d be remiss, at this point, Shawn, if I did not give you the opportunity to tell listeners how they can find out more about Shawn Harper, and your speaking, your books, everything that you do.
Shawn H:
Okay. Real quick. Shawnharper.org. Shawn with a “W”. That’s my website. @shawnharperspeaker. That’s Instagram.
Shawn H:
Now, if you go to shawnharper.co, and I’m going to take this down soon. If you go to shawnharper.co, the book that we’ve been talking about, you can get a free download.
Gary S:
Here it is.
Shawn H:
Just-
Gary S:
It’s The Winning Edge.
Shawn H:
Put your name and email in. You’ll get a free download of that book. It will be sent to you.
Gary S:
Warwick, take us to the final gun.
Warwick F:
Well, Shawn, thank you so much. I just love that your concept of winning, identity, legacy, and not success. I don’t know, maybe as you’re talking to young people, maybe it’s football players or just young people in general, what’s kind of the message that you want them to hear as they’re beginning their life? What’s the key takeaway that they need to learn to map out their life, would you say?
Shawn H:
Wow. The key takeaway that I would have from a motivational perspective is resistance through persistence, is that you got to keep fighting. Get back on the bike. That’s how we learn how to ride bikes is we keep falling off the bike. You get back on the bike.
Shawn H:
From a spiritual perspective, it’s get to the belong stage. It’s where I belong to God through his son, Jesus Christ, which changes my worldview, which changes my perspective. It’s not about what I can get; it’s more about what I can give. It doesn’t come to you if it can’t get through you. Live your words, life and your words and your actions as a seed. Everything you do is a seed. And you’re responsible for that harvest.
Gary S:
I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word has been spoken on a subject. And Shawn Harper just spoke the last word. And that sound you heard was the final gun going off. The game’s over.
Gary S:
Here’s the good news. Shawn Harper won. Warwick Fairfax won. And hopefully, listener, you believe that you’ve won as well. Been blessed by this conversation.
Gary S:
Warwick and I have a couple of favors to ask you, as we bid ado. One, tell your friends about the show. If you’ve liked this conversation, please let your friends know about Beyond the Crucible. You can also subscribe on the podcast app that you’re listening to the show on right now so that you can never miss, you will never miss a conversation like our conversation today with Shawn Harper.
Gary S:
And until the next time we are together at Beyond the Crucible, remember this. Your crucible experiences are real. They’re painful. We know that. They can, as we said at the outset, they can knock the wind out of your sails. We talk about that a lot.
Gary S:
Shawn described some very traumatic things that he went through. If you listened on a podcast app and didn’t watch on YouTube, pop over to YouTube for the first 10 or 15 minutes of the show. Watch Shawn’s face when he’s talking about some of the things he went through as a young boy. He’s smiling. He’s describing some traumatic crucible experiences, but he’s smiling because he’s come out on the other side. He’s come out beyond it. He’s seen that that didn’t define who he was.
Gary S:
And that’s the message that comes from, we hope, this episode and every episode of Beyond the Crucible. And that is this, that your crucibles do not define you. They are not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of your crucible, if you lean into that failure, that pain, and find out what it is that you’re supposed to walk away with, more knowledgeable about, and apply that to your life going forward, your crucible experiences, far from the end of your story, they can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story. And that new chapter can be the most rewarding chapter yet because where it leads, the final period of the final sentence of that chapter, leads to a life of significance.
