Real Leaders Embrace Their Calling: Kevin Edwards #71

Highlights

• The background that led him to Real Leaders — and “make business cool” (3:11)
• Working with social entrepreneurs — using video (8:24)
• Lessons for young leaders from his early experience (13:14)
• Where his entrepreneurial streak came from (14:40)
• “Everybody has their own crucible” (16:06)
• His own early crucibles (17:58)
• How he defines his calling (21:34)
• What he looks for in a podcast guest (33:22)
• His new course to help leaders make real impact (41:34)
• How work gives us purpose (45:11)
• His crucible with his father over a job he took (50:31)
• His advice on overcoming a crucible (58:56)
• The key episode takeaway (1:03:53)

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Kevin E:

Work, no matter what you do does give you a purpose. So when you think about where I was at that time, interviewing all these social entrepreneurs, hearing their stories of these Crucible moments, like, “I was 40 years down the line and my kids and wife left me because I was so focused on growth. We shouldn’t be doing this.”

Kevin E:

So you hear these stories and you think about that inception point about when people are actually going to start their work. And we have these career fairs where people come in, they flash all these shiny objects at you, “Come work for my company, we’ve got beer on Friday,” or “Come work for my company, we’ve got this cool office.” It’s not the way to go at all. I think we’ve got a big problem here on our hands, I’m glad that we’re talking about today.

Gary S:

We are indeed talking about it this week, about how to find purpose in your life and work, that allows you to create a legacy that stretches beyond the bottom line of balance sheets and the showy flash of corporate perks. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communication’s director for Crucible Leadership.

Gary S:

Warwick’s guest for this episode is Kevin Edwards, host of The Real Leaders podcast, who has discovered through hundreds of interviews with high-powered high achievers, interviews that date back to college, that one of the greatest crucibles most face is settling for success and not pursuing significance. What’s the antidote? Finding a calling that allows you to do good for others, even as you do well for yourself.

Warwick F:

Well, Kevin, it’s wonderful to have you here on the podcast. I love being on your podcast, Real Leaders. You’re so good at being a podcast host, the depth of questions that you asked, as I was mentioning off-air, the clip that you had of me, maybe one, if not the best, clip we’ve ever had. So thank you for coming on the podcast.

Gary S:

And I’m the guy who picks the clips for the episode. So thanks for that, Kevin.

Kevin E:

I am glad I could one up you.

Warwick F:

There you go. Exactly. Yeah. Kevin, you set the bar high. So, no pressure.

Gary S:

Yes.

Warwick F:

Well, yeah. And just, the whole concept of Real Leaders… I’m just looking at what’s on your website and I love what you have here. Real Leaders is dedicated to elevating and accelerating the global impact movement in order to inspire wise solutions to the issues that matter most. That whole concept of what it takes to be a real leader is more than just success as we talked about in our last conversation.

Warwick F:

But before we get to Real Leaders and what you do now, tell us a bit about Kevin Edwards, where you grew up, the background that led you to really get involved in podcasting and Real Leaders… connect the dots for us about your background and how you got to where you are now.

Kevin E:

Yeah. Thanks Warwick. And yeah, Gary. I’ll go in the same point because I get those guests that come on a show that always give me those long bios.

Gary S:

I know.

Kevin E:

And really when I was starting out, it was just so awkward, just reading these bios, just touting them like, “How about they just tell me who they are.” That’s why I just want to give you something short and sweet. And I am the host of Real Leaders podcast, where leaders keep it real, of course. But I started out really as an intern for Real Leaders. There at the time I think had four employees, so fairly small company, small businesses, I love small businesses.

Kevin E:

The founder came to me and he said, “Hey, would you mind writing some stories on some social entrepreneurs?” I said, “What are social entrepreneurs?” I had no idea what they were, I was into entrepreneurship at the time, I had my own pressure washing business, going to local neighbors and asking them if I could pressure wash their deck or drive way for a couple of bucks in the summer.

Kevin E:

Yeah. This internship opportunity came about and I said, “Well, Mark, that’s great.” I can certainly write some stories. I’m not really that good of a writer, but for young Real Leaders, not that many people our age are reading magazines nowadays. This is the time when Facebook just rolled out their videos. So I had one of my best friends on campus, I went to the University of Arizona, who was the philanthropic video editor, would do all those fun, cool little videos. And he was the best, I mean, he had the whole campus swag going on, everyone was rocking his shirts, everyone wanted to be in part of their videos.

Kevin E:

So I said, “Hey, how about we make business cool? How about I go out and interview some of these social entrepreneurs, and really just get to understand and learn what they do?” So I just went up the West Coast with him in his car after sophomore year. And no budget whatsoever, we just told Mark, “Hey, just give us a shot.” So we rent some basic equipment on Amazon, I’m sure we’re all trying to figure out microphones, I’ve got a nice setup here now, but it wasn’t this way before.

Kevin E:

It was a couple of lapel mics that worked one every 10 times and he had a camera… and keep in mind I’m 6’3, and we’re doing these walking interviews. So my buddy, Tucker, he’s holding this camera up here, he’s about 5’9. So, after we thought, we were biting off more than we could chew, we’re doing about 10 interviews a day with these social entrepreneurs, 30 minutes each. So, by the end of the summer, Tucker had some ripped shoulders there. But, yeah.

Gary S:

And you told me when we talked in advance of this interview, that while you were on that road trip, you stayed at some five star accommodations. I think you indicated you slept where?

Kevin E:

So, first stop was actually in San Diego, and we had a good time there. And then we went up to San Francisco from San Diego, because Tucson is about five and a half hours away from San Diego. San Diego to San Francisco is another eight hours. And we stop at his friend’s place from high school, played on the baseball team there. And San Francisco, it’s my really first time in the city.

Kevin E:

So, we’re in these bay window apartments right near USF, and we’re on the lower level of that apartment. And I remember asking this guys like, “How much are you paying them?” And he’s like, “I’m paying $2,100 for this little lower level.” So I’m like, “Oh great.” He set this air mattress for us in the living room floor. How nice of him. And then there’s another mattress to the side. Oh great.

Kevin E:

So we’ve had a long road trip, we’re rehearsing, trying to do our elevator pitch, “Real Leaders, we reach 30,000 CEOs at 135 countries, who just had control of $6 trillion to spend.” Yeah. And we’re pretty tired. And I say, “Hey, Tuck, I need to sleep.” So I go into this bed, he goes into the air mattress, get all snuggled in and his roommate is studying for his test. And I got a text on my phone, he says, “Hey Kev, you’re in Cooper’s bed. I paid him $2,100, just sleep on a mattress in the living room floor.”

Kevin E:

So I got to move back over to the air mattress, which is of course halfway filled up and has a hole in it. So, slept on the floor that night and had to do 10 interviews the next day. But that’s living situations that we were in, and that’s the art of learning as you go. And so we did those 10 interviews at Impact Hub in San Francisco, went up the West Coast to Portland, Oregon, we went to Bend, Oregon, we went to Seattle Washington. We went to Vancouver, Washington, we went to the US Virgin Islands.

Kevin E:

And through that summer, we did about 30, 35 interviews with social entrepreneurs, CEOs, and any sustainable business that we get our hands on. And it really taught us a lot.

Warwick F:

So when you say social entrepreneur, what is a social entrepreneur?

Kevin E:

Yeah. Social entrepreneur to me is someone who’s intentionally trying to take on a social or environmental problem. And as they grow, as they scale, they’re able to solve that problem even further. I’ll give you an example. Example to me is someone who’s come on our show called Emma Rose Cohen. And she had a passion. She went to University of Santa Barbara, school on the coast.

Kevin E:

So there’s a ton of plastic everywhere, and said, “Why is this? Here I am trying to get this great education and we’re just polluting, throwing bottles everywhere. And it’s really getting into the waste streams. And we’ve all seen the image of the turtle and its nose.” And she said, “I want to end this problem,” and does some research, and the problem ends up being single use plastic. Plastic you use after one time, virgin plastic made from oils.

Kevin E:

So she goes out, she does this viral video, and this video, she throws onto a crowdfunding site, raises $1.8 million and is able to now diversify her product line for for-profit company, making the final product. These could be utensils, wipes, anything that you use one time to eliminate that consumer behavior of throwing away plastic into waste streams that affect our animals, our eco-systems, all of the above. So that’s a social entrepreneur, someone who’s solving also a business problem in a socially constructive way.

Warwick F:

Wow. So you and your buddy showed a lot of entrepreneurial spirit in college, you had this idea. And so, was this with Real Leaders? What was then the genesis of it, about doing interviews with social entrepreneurs? Is that partly how it happened?

Kevin E:

Yeah. Real Leaders at the time, the tagline was, Better Leaders For a Better World. And we focus a lot on diversity and inclusion. And so, hats off to our founder and our leadership team for letting us do this one. But we created a good product. I mean, it brought them viewership that they’d never had before online at the time. So-

Warwick F:

And these were video interviews that you were doing, so they didn’t have that, so you pitched the idea to them. And I mean, that took a lot of courage at that age, because they were looking for articles that sounds like… but you pitched them an idea that might work better with younger folks today. I mean, where do you find that courage and get up and go, spirit to do all of that? Because a lot of folks in college would not be thinking that, well, not even try.

Warwick F:

And then you go to get these interviews with folks, which is not always easy, you’re in college. How do all that happen? I mean, where do you get the get up and go, the courage to do all that?

Kevin E:

Yeah. I mean, it’s a good question. There’s no courage without fear. And so, I had a lot of fear just starting out, here I am, I don’t know a lick about business, but I just wanted to go out there and interview people. I had had a few prior experiences with interviewing people, I was that anchor of our high school news channel. So, I had some experience, but really it was just throwing ourselves out there and seeing what happens.

Kevin E:

And I think a lot of the leaders are those people as well. And I think they recognize people that are different, people that are trying to put themselves in an uncomfortable position and they recognize that. And so everyone that I was able to interview, obviously my terminology, my questions were probably horrible at the time, I probably thought they were good, but it may have not made any sense, but they were willing to work with me, and give me that time.

Kevin E:

So, that’s something that I really appreciated. And as you do more repetitions, that I’m sure you both have found, you get to be more comfortable, you learn little things along the way that you can’t research, things that just come up through continuous repetition. So, I’ve adopted that mentality in anything I do now, just knowing things are going to take a long time, and that’s something that school and anything else I don’t think could really teach us.

Warwick F:

Yeah. I mean, I think you’re answering this, but maybe to other folks in college or young people starting out, one of the lessons you learned from that epic road trip up the West Coast and pitching an idea which… I mean, I had pitched one idea to you, but you pitched it back to him in a slightly different vein, they weren’t looking for the video series but you offered it to them. So, what are the lessons you would offer for college folks or young people that you learned from that whole experience.?

Kevin E:

Yeah. Business owners are more willing to give you their time versus their money. And so, I think it was a pretty easy sell for us to say, “Hey, give us 30 minutes of your time, and we’re going to talk about your career, career path, career advice for young social entrepreneurs, break these videos down, the one to three minutes and bring these success stories alive to inspire purposeful careers. Do you have a moment?” A lot of them did.

Kevin E:

And so, relentless emails, obviously we got rejected 100 times, but people are very willing, and especially people in the impact space, they need that recognition right now. So I think, we definitely fill the gap for them in terms of getting them some marketing material out there.

Warwick F:

So that was a wise strategy there that business owners is one thing but folks that want to have impact environmentally and socially, they want to get their environment out there. Here’s a couple of young guys, and you weren’t just talking about a whole long phone video, you’re talking of video clips, you’re probably a variety of different things that you could package it. So, that was pretty enterprising. So, as you go, maybe walk back and you mentioned… I’ve heard you grew up in the Portland area. Was there something in your background, parents or something that gave you this entrepreneurial courageous spirit? I mean, where does that sense of adventure come from?

Kevin E:

Well, my mother is the president of Real Leaders.

Warwick F:

Oh, okay.

Kevin E:

So, that’s how I was able to get that opportunity, which is very fortunate. And that’s the thing though, Warwick you work in a family business.

Warwick F:

Yeah. I’m pretty aware. Yeah.

Kevin E:

You don’t want to work for your mother. So, yeah. In terms of my background, I think for entrepreneurship, it really just started out with pressure washing and staining decks, doing something that was different. I mean, I was always very active, I was in student government in high school, I ran on community task force that we started, I was pitching in front of a court to get us more money for our non-profit at the time. And I was super young.

Kevin E:

So my parents always made me uncomfortable, always threw me into the fire. And I think my dad’s favorite quote is to make my life miserable, that’s his number one job. So, I always grew up in an uncomfortable setting and always had to persevere over a lot of different challenges, whether it was on the sports team, whether it was in family life, like anybody does, I would assume so.

Kevin E:

Yeah. But also maybe environmentally, yeah. Growing up in Oregon, you’re definitely… I mean, I didn’t realize I grew up in a forest until I moved to Tucson, Arizona. And yeah, I mean, definitely being a part of the environment, being close to Mount Hood, close to the beach, having forests to run around in, and I think definitely played a role in that as well.

Gary S:

As you tell that story. One of the things that leaps out to me, the very first thing you said to me when we did a call, a month or so ago now, first thing I wrote down on top of my paper, “Everyone has their own crucible.” Is what you said. And it sounds like what you were just describing. You had your own experiences, and the people that you talk to had their own crucible experiences. I mean, it’s as Warwick says, if you haven’t had one, check your watch, because in 15 minutes you might have one. But that’s a pretty profound statement for this show to say everyone has their own crucible.

Kevin E:

Yeah. I would agree on that. I mean, what Warwick is saying is completely true, and that’s really the crux of what has kept me going. Interviewing successful social entrepreneurs, CEOs, and you hear these stories about, “I didn’t have any meaning in my life. My kids didn’t recognize me anymore, I had this spear in the heart moment, where I was so focused on growth, and I just lost who I was.”

Kevin E:

You don’t hear these things all the time, and that’s why I think is so great about your show. And Crucible… I told Warwick on the show, it couldn’t be a better word, severe trials that lead the creation of something new. All of these people have had this career realization and needed to do something more meaningful that aligns with their intention. And so that’s what I’m trying to get out with our content, with our show and just out of these interviews as well. But I don’t think we do as good of a job as Crucible.

Warwick F:

No, you guys do awesome. Just one more beat on the background. I always love the backstory, it sounds like either or both of your parents, must’ve had some entrepreneurial spirit. I mean, your mom founding Real Leaders must have had something. But it also sounds like… I mean, I grew up in a very affluent background and sometimes people who have had some degree of success, they can cushion their children from… put them in little cotton balls, what have you.

Warwick F:

And it sounds like you were challenged, whether it’s athletically or what have you, I know we don’t get into all the details, but it sounds like there was somethings maybe they did right, in the sense of just challenging you and not just making… you know what I mean? They add some-

Kevin E:

Yeah. And again, everyone has their own crucible, and everyone is different. So, my mother did not found Real Leaders, she is now the president. She is married to the founder. Mark said… okay, it came up. But when I was growing up in high school, they weren’t together at the time, my mom actually didn’t have a job, she lost it during the economic recession. My parents are divorced.

Kevin E:

And I also had a lot of pain growing up with my brother, not going over to my father’s house growing up. So, I think it was really, like you said, Warwick in the show, that you got a reputation to hold, you didn’t want to go out, you want to be exposed. So that was who I felt had those expectations on me, a lot of pressure because of my older brother’s habits and reputation within the community.

Kevin E:

So, it was a pretty difficult upbringing, I didn’t really notice it as much at the time, as you grow up, you realize things aren’t okay. But I think that was definitely a crux for what made me go out there and try to be involved and show our community that, “Hey, look, the Edwards family can really contribute and be a big staple in this community as well.” To the teachers, to the faculty, to anyone that may be had heard different and we can make a change.

Kevin E:

And so, I don’t like to speak too much about my brother, because I know he’s going through a hard time right now, and he’s doing incredible things in terms of his recovery. So, but at that point in time, as we all know, family members that are struggling with addiction, it was very difficult to hold the family together and put on this face to friends and family members and coaches.

Warwick F:

We all have challenges in life, but for you, with your crucible experiences, it motivated you to go in a positive direction to contribute, to capture people’s stories of people doing good. I mean, again, we don’t need to talk more about background, but it sounds like all those experiences helped form your values and who you are and what motivates you. Is that a fair statement? Would you say?

Kevin E:

Yeah. I would think so. Yeah.

Warwick F:

Yeah. So let’s talk about, with Real Leaders and what you do. I think you’ve talked a bit about this, but what are you passionate about? What is who you say, this is my calling, this is Kevin Edwards’ calling. Because it sounds like… some people don’t know, but I’m guessing you’re one of these people that actually know, you have a sense of mission and calling in terms of what you do, would you say?

Kevin E:

Yeah. My intention is definitely to have the most meaningful conversations that transform lives. Gary, I told you I got one lines for a lot of different things, that’s it? And it actually comes from a lot of trying… I was trying to do a lot of why workshops, and really peel back those layers of what my north star may be. And it wasn’t until I read somewhere that maybe I should reach out to other people, to affirm actually who I am.

Kevin E:

So I wrote down my five statements, what makes me unique? What makes me unique? This, this, this and that. And I got a lot of funny things that come back, “Oh, it’s that deformity in your chest that sticks out, that’s what makes you unique.” “Oh, it’s your ability to have these conversations with people.” “Oh, it’s the trust that you’ve installed within our family and that you reach out to them.”

Kevin E:

So, all these things came together and I really realized that, at the core, it’s just that I like to have actual, meaningful conversations with people that will hopefully transform their lives. That’s what I find interesting. And I realized that because I eliminate everything else, I don’t watch a lot of Netflix, I don’t watch a lot of shows, I don’t go out and really do anything. I’m very focused. And I write down on my whiteboard every single week, that intention and how is that going to manifest in three different aspects of my life, in my work, in my family and with my friends.

Warwick F:

Wow. Meaningful conversations that transform lives. So it’s hard for me to think of something better than that. I mean, at a relatively young age to have your north star locked in. We spoke on your podcast that, is nothing wrong when you’re in your 50s or older, trying to figure out is life all about success? Is it about significance? And suddenly you’re living… and we define a life significance is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.

Warwick F:

Clearly, that’s what you do. I don’t mean to be flippant but you’ve got that box checked. I mean, what could be more of a life significance than having meaningful conversation to transform lives? So at a relatively young age, you’re already leading a life of significance. It can take some people in their 50s, 60s, it’s never too late. But as I often say, you don’t want to be on your death bed saying, “I think now’s a good time to turn the direction of my life.” Sooner is better.

Kevin E:

Absolutely. And I think for some people we tend to overthink things and we tend to try to be somebody that we’re not. Look, I mean, I did these interviews because I didn’t think I’d have a career in interviewing. I just didn’t really realize it was something that I naturally liked to do. And that just came very natural to me, and I really feels like I’m in that flow state when I’m doing them.

Kevin E:

And so, sometimes when we’re trying to think about our company, we’re trying to think about our why statements, it’s like being in the inside of that beer bottle. You’re in the inside, it’s nice inside, but on the outside is where the label is, and that’s why you need people to talk to, to tell you, “Hey, this is what makes you unique. This is how I see you.” And then where the overlay is I believe is where you truly can be living.

Warwick F:

Absolutely. And by being so clear, that helps you ask great questions. I mean, a lot of business leaders, as I’ve mentioned, they don’t really think their action man, action women, they’re running a mile a minute, and it’s not so much they’re trying to be bad people, it’s so often, they’re not really in touch with their values, their beliefs, whatever that is, what they feel their calling is.

Warwick F:

I’ve done a fair amount of executive coaching in the past, and I’ll often ask this question that sounds flippant, but it’s not meant to be. I’ll say, “So tell me about your values and beliefs.” And, I mean, very few leaders will say, “Oh, I don’t have any.” I mean, you don’t get to be a leader without some foundations somewhere. And I’ll say, “Sir, to what degree do you feel like you’re living your values and your beliefs in your professional and personal life.”

Warwick F:

And sometimes you’ll hear, “You know what, there’s a bit of a disconnect to be honest. I don’t do enough reflection, I’m just too busy making decisions.” And then I’ll ask with a straight face, because as a coach, you’re non judgmental and I certainly try to be. So I say, “What would you like to do? Would you like to change your values and beliefs to better align with what you’re doing corporately and personally? Or would you like to change your personal and professional life to be in harmony with your values and beliefs?”

Warwick F:

And it’s pretty clear to me. I mean, most people, what are they going to say? “No, let me change my values and beliefs. Well, most sane people aren’t going to say that, but you have to ask that. And then, so I guess the point of the story is, using your words, by having meaningful conversations that help transform lives, just by asking that one question, what are your values and beliefs? To what degree do you think you’re living it?

Warwick F:

I’m just asking questions, I’m not judging them, they’re judging or assessing themselves. And so, using different language I feel like by asking questions, I’m sure what matters to you? What’s the goal of your organization? How do you feel that changes the world? Do you have any problems? Talk about your team. I mean, all the questions that I’m sure you would ask, that helps them to think and reflect. It helps your guests think, “We’re doing well, but could we do better? Not just in terms of profit, but in terms of our mission.” Does that make sense?

Warwick F:

Because that’s your way of thinking, you’re going to be asking questions that do transform lives. Good questions, help transform lives. Because I know long-winded response, but does that make sense in terms of what you do?

Kevin E:

Yeah. Absolutely. And really started out with those social entrepreneurs. So what’s actually been difficult for me is to go into this leadership realm maybe where you guys are and have these conversations about leadership, what are your values? How do you go in? Whereas I started out with, what’s your intention? What social or environmental problem are you trying to solve? How do you lead? How does that affect your employees? All of these different things.

Kevin E:

But I think your position is very unique, you’re almost like a therapist in some way. And I know from my podcasts, you never know who’s going to show up on the opposite side of that screen or next to you, they could be having a bad day. You could do all the research you want in them, but until they’re in front of you, you really don’t know who’s going to show up. So, I think what you do is a very special job and it definitely takes a special person to relate to them.

Gary S:

That’s one of the reasons why we say we try to go a certain amount of time, 45 minutes, but we let content not the clock dictate, because it’s just what you said, Kevin, you don’t know, not only who’s on the other side of the microphone, but you don’t know what their stories are going to be. One of the things that we try to do and you probably saw it on the form that we have all guests fill out, is we don’t want to know too much information, because to know everything… we’ve all been on podcasts where they ask you, here’s the 10 questions that I’m going to ask you, and it’s like, “Okay,” there’s no spontaneity there.

Gary S:

And with too much preparation, can come a degradation I think of the spontaneity that leads to those moments that you’re talking about. Those revelations… all of us have asked questions for a living, the best place to be is when someone says, “I haven’t heard that question before.” When I was a reporter, I once interviewed Dick Clark, and I asked Dick Clark, who on American bandstand for 40 years, it’s got a great beat and you can dance to it. That was his gig.

Gary S:

I asked him if he danced, and he said to me, “No one’s ever asked me that question.” I was flying for three weeks after that, the idea of being able to ask someone a question where you’re really paying attention, that’s the thing that makes what you’re doing, when you say that your focus is to ask questions that help change people’s lives. That’s part of the payoff, is listening and then responding in a way that offers a question that to your word, Kevin, is a bit of therapy sometimes.

Kevin E:

Definitely. Yeah, I’d agree. I think the best interviewers are the best listeners, no doubt. I also find myself trying to avoid the leadership. I like to just know who the people are. Are they funny? How do they react to certain questions? Are they super tight in business like this? They only talk in business terminology. So there’s all different types of people that come on the show.

Kevin E:

And yeah, I will say the interviews that I do prepare more for are the ones that are more formal and I don’t like as often, they’re not as free flowing. So yeah, it’s a tough balance, but again, doing so many interviews on the cuff with no preparation at conferences, just on the road with no preparation, being young, you have to get over that fear real early on and just trust yourself in those interviews. And I think that’s part of the reason why I’ve been able to stick with it.

Warwick F:

Absolutely. And you said something earlier that I’m curious about. You started off doing social entrepreneurs and then this Real Leaders you also interview just regular business owners and executives. Talk about that difference, because I would imagine with the social entrepreneur, as you’re implying, you going to be cause-inspired person, you don’t become a social entrepreneur without this burning desire to make a difference in the world.

Warwick F:

I mean, you have to have that otherwise why would you do this? So, what differences have you found in interviewing regular leaders, for want of a better word versus social leaders or social entrepreneurs?

Kevin E:

Right. What is a real leader? We ask that question at the end of every show, right?

Warwick F:

Yeah.

Kevin E:

There’s not one definition, there’s not one right answer. So, I think the overlay between where we are is that crucible moment, is that career transition, because all the social entrepreneurs we’ve had on, had traditional careers, worked for big four, went to really good schools and had that again, that spear in the chest moment. So, that’s where we started.

Kevin E:

I’m always trying to push myself and push those boundaries to say, “Hey, let’s get someone on Paul Stamets, a mycologist.” I interviewed this… I don’t know if you know who this is, Akon, he’s an artist, he’s a big time performer.

Gary S:

Yeah.

Kevin E:

Yeah. I interviewed him a couple of times, let’s stretch my experience out to those levels. Doctors, those are the hardest. To speak on their level is very difficult. Gone to the opiod epidemic. I’ve covered a lot of different people. So I always try and stretch myself. The process is very much the same, but with those interviews, you just got to listen a little bit harder.

Warwick F:

So when you think of your ideal, Real Leader guest, what is it you’re looking for in a guest?

Kevin E:

I’m not looking for anything. And I hate… I know that sounds cliche like, “Oh, he doesn’t really mean that.” No, I used to look for something. I used to look for that person that I could really see in myself, but the more people you have on the show, the more you realize just how different everybody is, their backgrounds, where they come from, how they see the world, and the impact economy. The CEOs are not your stereotypical CEOs, they’re really not.

Kevin E:

They’re not timestamped… I mean, they are timestamped, but they’re not pushy, they’re very genuine people. If you went to an Impact, and I’d invite you both to our Impact Awards, if you go to this awards conference, you’ll see people in plaid shirts with patagonia vests on, the type of quirky people who are all multi-millionaires and CEOs, but just have an appreciation for the outdoors, for people, for what they’re actually doing.

Kevin E:

And I’ll never forget one of my first… not one of my first interviews, but one of my first years of doing it, I asked this guy a question, waste farmers, “What do you do?” And he was taken back by that actually, almost offended. He was like, “That question, what do you do? It’s not a good question.” We tend to, as society really break things down into one sentence or one thing about what we do, who we are, we put labels on things. That’s not what we do.

Kevin E:

So, had a long with an answer for why they’re doing what they’re doing. And I’ll tell you, that was the last time I ever asked somebody. What do you do? That’s for sure.

Warwick F:

I’m tempted. Did you ask him, so what would have been a better question or? I’m curious to know, what is it? Who are you? Or what do you value? I wonder what his ideal question would be.

Kevin E:

Just tell me how you got into this.

Warwick F:

Okay.

Kevin E:

How are you doing what you’re doing? This waste farmers, you’re collecting the soil to regenerate the soil. Why is that important? Where’s the money in this? And then he started to peel back what he actually does, but I think sometimes as interviewers, we don’t do a good enough job of asking the right questions. We ask a lot of cliche questions. I’m a culprit of it, we all are. And it’s really just trying to dig a little bit deeper and listen to them a little bit harder, which again, I think you hit the nail on the head earlier on.

Warwick F:

Yeah. It’s interesting. So it sounds like, you’re not just about interviewing your average corporate leader, Real Leaders and I love that tagline at the end, keep it real. I’m assuming you want to know the real person, what makes them tick, their values, their passions, what drove them to do what they do. You don’t want just to hear a spreadsheet, you want to hear who is the person? Is that a fair assessment of what you’re trying to achieve?

Kevin E:

Absolutely. And I think, I don’t personally have a definition for what a real leader is. I think it’s someone that can create these meaningful connections, and if enough people are connected, then inherently you can have a movement. But what is real is what is imperfect to me. And I’ve really realized that, here we are looking at all of us, we’re wearing blazers, why are we wearing blazers? We’re in our home.

Gary S:

I at least have a t-shirt on.

Kevin E:

So, what is imperfect? And I think in Crucible Leadership, you have to lower your guard, you have to be vulnerable, you have to be yourself. And in today’s day and age, to be that next generational leader, you’ve really got to connect with people in a personal way, because everyone’s on their phones, everyone knows who you are, especially people and millennials, they really want those connections with those leaders and want you to recognize them as well as a human being.

Gary S:

And one of the things that we didn’t realize, or that we were worried about when Warwick started the show, was okay, people don’t talk about failure, much. That was our organizing construct. And then we sat down and said, “Where are we going to find guests? If people don’t talk about failure much.” And Warwick is unique because he talks about his failure and setback, with the takeover bid that didn’t work, “How are we going to find guests who here’s the beautiful thing that we found?”

Gary S:

It’s not been easy to find guests, but it’s been not nearly as hard as it was. And the thing that we discovered that’s so great about it, is that regardless of what the circumstances of the crucible may be, as I’ve said, not many people have lost 150 year old media company at a price of 2.25 billion with a B, which is 4.7 billion in today’s money, but we don’t go there often.

Gary S:

Not many people have done that circumstantially, but emotionally, those crucibles feel the same way. And that’s where the realness… when I think of Real Leaders, that’s one of the things we’ve discovered in doing this show, is that it takes a real leader to come on this show and talk about their most painful setback and how they bounced back from that and how they’re living life now with their eye on their legacy and a life of significance.

Warwick F:

It is amazing. We’ve interviewed a very diverse group, diverse in terms of gender, background, race, as well as type of crucibles, everything from abuse to business failure, marriage, physical injury, Parkinson’s, Navy seal who is paralyzed at a training accident, every crucible you can think of. And they all have something in common, they refuse to lie down and just while away the next 30, 40, 50 years of their life, they often lean into their crucible.

Warwick F:

Like the Navy seal I mentioned, I think I mentioned on your podcast, who lives in San Diego, or I think you mentioned, ended up becoming exec director of this clinic for vets that has some of the top technology anywhere in the country. Well, he’s using his pain again it’s an oft used phrase for a purpose. So, all of these folks we’ve interviewed, there’s commonality amongst all of them. I mean, a lot of the time I’ll say, “Well, almost apologize because what I went through financially was devastating and my sense of self and self-esteem was devastating, but I feel like… well, I wasn’t physically abused, I didn’t become a paraplegic, almost, well, my crucible is not nearly at the level that you went through.”

Warwick F:

And all these people when I say that, will say, “Your worst experience is your worst experience.” They don’t judge you, it’s not like a competition who has had the worst life. They don’t judge you, all these people. And we’ve interviewed 50 plus, so there’s some commonality in this and I feel it’s fascinating. And obviously your podcast is called Real Leaders, but yeah, I sense some of what you do is similar, I think you’ve mentioned off-air, about trying to align people’s skills with their values, helping people before they get stuck.

Warwick F:

I mean, some of the language and thoughts you have, there’s some similarities, don’t you think in terms of what your heart is for the leaders you talk with?

Kevin E:

Yeah. Plenty. And I’m actually developing a new course right now called Impact RX, and the impact prescriptions for… I guess our dream customer is 28 to 36 year olds who are what we say are stuck in career paralysis. So the impact prescription is a cure for that paralysis and breaking down that impact in the six different things, intention, model, profitability, accountability, customers’ transformation, impact as a course, a lesson for people that really feel unstuck, but also Warwick.

Kevin E:

There’s so many crossovers, as we found out today. But another one I think is this, success versus significance. But for us it’s short-term versus long-term. If you’re someone who wants to have a significant life, you’re not thinking about the short term right here now, you’re thinking about the longterm. So for these impact organizations, they’re thinking seven generations down the line, will our kids be able to live in this planet?

Kevin E:

You know what I’m saying? When the price of oil increases and distribution costs go up, what’s that going to do for our economy? Let’s focus on local now. So there’s a lot of world problems that I’ve been exposed to through these interviews, poverty, no hunger to health and wellbeing, the SEGs, water shortage, again, the opioid crisis, mycelium decline with the roots of fungi. All of these different things.

Kevin E:

These leaders are taking a stance, they’ve found their purpose, they’ve aligned it with this intention, and they’re thinking in the long-term and ways to solve these problems. That’s why I find it so fascinating.

Warwick F:

What I find encouraging is, some folks talk about, well first part of my life, I’m going to be successful, then I’ll have enough money, maybe I’ll have enough money to start a nonprofit or join a few nonprofit boards. I think that I can do that in my 50s or so, but in the meantime, I’ll work my way up to be partner or whatever it is.

Warwick F:

And I don’t think it’s an either or, and I try not to be judgmental, but I have a different perspective. I think all of life should be significant from grade school or frankly your earliest memory on. You can have a life of significance in elementary school, you don’t have to wait until you’re 40, 50, 60, and you’ll have to make choices. It doesn’t mean to say that you leap off the partner track at your law firm or your business.

Warwick F:

But maybe just to pick law for an example, maybe you’re a lawyer, and maybe I’d like to get into environmental law or a nonprofit law. Well, maybe you might not make as much money as you would in corporate or tax. Maybe I used part of this example on your podcast, but… and it’s not a right or wrong decision, just be intentional. Maybe it’s part of what you’re… how does it align with your values? If you feel like, no, I honestly feel like I can make a big impact in the corporate area by meeting with some of these CEOs and having a discussion and meaningful discussions that impact others, you can make a case for that, but do it because you’re being intentional.

Warwick F:

And if you say, “Look, I’m going to make a lot less money being a non-profit pro bono lawyer for folks that can’t afford it,” so long as that’s your decision, that’s not a wrong decision, if that’s what you want to do, maybe your parents might not understand, maybe your friends might have a bit of doubt what you want to do. So-

Kevin E:

No Warwick, I want to hit on this point, I want to keep going on this point, because what I’ve found is, everyone says, “Well, do what you love, do what you love,” I don’t really like that quote as much, but I will say work no matter what you do does give you a purpose.

Warwick F:

Yeah.

Kevin E:

So when you think about where I was at that time, interviewing all these social entrepreneurs, hearing their stories of these crucible moments, like, “I was 40 years down the line and my kids and wife left me, because I was so focused on growth.” We shouldn’t be doing this. So you hear these stories and you think about that inception point about when people are actually going to start their work.

Kevin E:

And we have these career fairs where people come in, they flash all these shiny objects at you, come work for my company, we’ve got beer on Friday or come work for my company, we’ve got this cool office. It’s not the way to go at all. So I think we’ve got a big problem here on our hands and I’m glad that we’re talking about today.

Warwick F:

I’m glad that with your new course and other things that, that’s on your heart, because as we’ve said before, you don’t want to be on the death bed going, “Boy, I blew it, my kids don’t know me, that I’ve had all these issues in their life.” And, you don’t get that life back. Yeah, I mean, I’ve said a lot of things I’ve done wrong, but because I grew up in such a large wealthy family in media business and was around ambassadors, prime ministers, even folks from Hollywood, my mother was incredible at throwing parties, even Hollywood folks would come out and say, “Boy, Lady Mary Fairfax throws parties on a level that we’re not used to, even in Hollywood.”

Warwick F:

So, she had not so much because of the money, but she had a sense of style, and she was actually on the top 10 best dressed women in the world list way back in the day. So, she was quite something. So I got to meet all these folks and I just saw… lot of them just had empty lives and their kids, and I never wanted to be that person, so I was fortunate I could spend time with my kids who are now all in their 20s.

Warwick F:

And what’s interesting and something for everybody to think about on birthdays or what have you, we write cards, we say what we most value about the person whose birthday is, it’s just a tradition we’ve done for many years. And my boys who are the more athletic ones in my family, every single time, they’ll say, “Well, dad, you’re always there at our soccer game at tennis game, you were there. For many, many years, they’ve said that, I can’t tell you how much that means to me.

Warwick F:

So all that’s to say, I mean my whole brand, if you will is about all the screw ups and the stupid decisions I’ve made, so if anybody wants to know all the dumb things I have done, go to crucibleleadership.com and you’ll hear all the bad, stupid idiotic stuff.

Gary S:

Hey you’re doing my job telling people to go to crucibleleadership.com.

Warwick F:

You don’t want to be that young guy, that young woman with the divorce, with the kids that hate you because you were never there. Oh you’re doing well. But, I don’t know, to me this is a judgemental moment coming up on. If you’re going to get married and have a family, honor that. If you don’t want to spend time with your kids and wife or husband, then don’t get married, don’t have kids. But if you make that social contract, it’s all as to say, as you get the idea, is life’s about choices, is having that whole life where you feel good about what you do, you’re not abandoning.

Warwick F:

I mean, some people even abandon their families for the so-called good cause. I personally don’t believe in that philosophy myself. I think you can do both, you can be successful and significant, you can work on a good cause and have a decent family. So anyway, I guess that’s a bit of a discussion, but does that make sense? I guess, I focus, especially on young people, getting these points, don’t go for the shiny object even if the shiny object is couched in some socially, good goal, is great, but you don’t have to sacrifice your whole, you can do both, you can do good and have a good family.

Kevin E:

Well, guess who’s a big factor in that job decision, as a college student, “Hey mom, dad, I just got this job offer today, what do you think?” Parents are a big influence. And so all the parents listen to this right now, out there. What I went through was difficult, and Gary, this is actually what we talked about before the show, and this was… I had this career with Real Leaders and I took this pay cut to go work for them.

Kevin E:

I got offered a few other different jobs in Chicago, again, the shiny objects, high paying salaries. And I took this job because I knew when I was working at an insurance company the year before, big insurance company, that I’d go home after that work day and focus on Real Leaders on those interviews. And I knew that this is probably what I wanted to do for a long time. And a lot of people don’t have that.

Kevin E:

And so, when I joined and Warwick, I think we’re actually, we’re more similar than you think. When I joined my mother and stepfather’s company, my father did not respect it. And so I was back home in college or from college after I graduated living with him, trying to tell him about the excitement, what I’m telling you guys, and I was just over the head. And here’s a guy that was at my football games every time, was my biggest supporter growing up. And for the first time in my life, when something that I really liked and really wanted to do, there’s zero support, no questions, nothing. And that was very difficult. that was probably my crucible moment.

Kevin E:

Taking a step back and going, “All right, got to make a decision here, got to do what I love or succumb to this pressure with my father and potentially damage the relationships.”

Gary S:

And not pursue the purpose that you felt you were being called to. I mean, you felt your soul come alive as you were doing those interviews.

Kevin E:

Yeah, definitely. And since then, it’s actually pushed me to go harder and harder and further and further. And since then now, he’s come on board, and it’s just in the best thing, and he’s my guy, I go to now to have those conversations that I can’t have with my mother and my stepdad because they are my business partners. So it created this interesting dynamic where we’re now closer over here on this forefront, and I’m closer with my mother and stepfather on this side, because we interact every day about the business. So, it’s this interesting parallel, but it took a lot of time in love and nurturing and it’s still a tough process. Let me tell you,

Warwick F:

I want to just focus on what you just said because listeners will be everywhere from 20s through 60s or beyond, the courage that… and I’m serious about this, the courage that Kevin had, it’s easy, I mean, you’re obviously somebody that’s bright, that is focused in any corporate career, you’re going to get it done, do incredibly well and you go up the ladder, because you’re focused, driven, those are the things that corporate CEOs and vice presidents, that’s what they want when they’re looking for folks to fill the pipeline of the best and brightest and high achievers or whatever else human resources is calling it.

Warwick F:

So you could have done that and been very successful. I have no doubt. But yet you chose to follow the calling in your heart. And to me, the road less traveled you picked from my perspective, the right choice. Why is it right? Because it was true to who you were. And any time you pick a calling or a profession that’s true to who your inner values, your inner calling, this still small voice, whatever you want to call it, deep within you, being true to yourself is always right. That’s always the right call.

Warwick F:

So as you can tell, other young people this, you can save them a lot of misery. And yeah, I mean an ideal world would have supportive parents. And in my case, it wasn’t so much that they were not supportive, is just, as I mentioned on your podcast, it’s growing up in the Royal family, for me not to go into the family business, it would have devastated my father, I would have crushed him, I mean, I couldn’t have done it because… and the thing is having a media or a newspaper in which you’re trying to uplift society, wasn’t like it’s such a bad mission, it just wasn’t my mission.

Warwick F:

But again, I’m not perfect with my own kids, I’m hyper-focused on not telling them what to do, I want them to live into their gifting and calling, but I don’t care what they do, I don’t care what they earn, so long as they’re happy. Now sometimes… I don’t know if I’ve mentioned on the podcast, maybe I have, it will come back to bite you. Faith is important to me and faith is important to all of my kids.

Warwick F:

Well, my daughter is the fearless entrepreneur, if you will, and I don’t quite know where she gets those genes, but I wouldn’t call myself fearless at all. But she said to us one time, “Well, I got this opportunities to work with Samaritan’s Purse, a fantastic faith-based aid organization. Anywhere there’s poverty or turmoil in the world, like in Iraq, when Mosul was being seized, and that whole deal, they were out there giving people food and water outside Mosul with the refugees leaving. I mean, that’s about as dangerous a place on the planet at the time, a number of years ago. So they really out there, I admire what they do.

Warwick F:

So she said, “Well, I’ve been given the opportunity to have an internship in the Congo,” it was a very dangerous place. And then a year or so later, fast forward, South Sudan, again, one of the most poorest nations in the world, and there’s been turmoil forever for a variety of reasons. Well, what are you going to say? No? And she was over 21, so no wouldn’t have helped. Where people will faced those… it’s not like we disagree with her mission, not that it matters, we agree with the mission, how can you say no? I mean, because you’d be a hypocrite.

Warwick F:

She’s doing what she believes in, and the icing on the cake is you happen to believe in it too. You just wish it wasn’t so dangerous. So I don’t know. I mean, it can come back to bite you when you try and live this out, but all in all, it is a good philosophy for parents, and I want them to really hear what Kevin has said is, support your kid’s calling, forget about the numbers and the career, and if they do what they love, it’ll sort itself out.

Warwick F:

So your parents need to hear that, and those in their 20s, they just need to have the courage to, I don’t mean to reject your parents, but just do what you feel you’re called to. Does that make sense?

Kevin E:

Yeah. And the young adults need to listen too, they need to know they cannot reject your parents’ opinions and thoughts.

Warwick F:

Right.

Kevin E:

That’s another thing it took a long time for me to learn and say, “They’re right about a lot of different things.”

Warwick F:

Well, that’s true. I mean, there are some folks, that anybody that’s older than 40 by definition must be wrong. Well, sometimes you can learn from other people’s mistakes, they’re mentoring, how do you do things? In my younger days… I mean, it’s easy when you’re young to get into this, I’m going to share my truth throw in the hand grenades and machine guns, and I’m speaking my truth.

Warwick F:

Well, you can speak your truth, but try and do it a little bit more diplomatically first, you don’t only have to go in there all guns blazing. No. That’s typically a mistake early on that you learn later on. But-

Gary S:

I’m going to show that I listened to my parents when I was younger, that if I had something to say that I thought was relevant to a conversation, to say it, and that is, I believe that the sound we heard was the captain turning on and fastening seatbelt sign, it’s about time to land the plane. Not quite yet. We have a couple more things we need to do. The first thing, Kevin, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let our listeners know how they can find out more about the Real Leaders podcast, about Real Leaders, about you.

Kevin E:

Yeah. Appreciate Gary. Yeah. Real Leader podcast, it’s on every listening platform, Apple, Spotify, YouTube. Just search Real Leaders podcasts, and you’ll find it, it’s a red logo, it’s Real Leader with Kevin Edwards. You can also find more information at real-leaders.com. It’s real-leaders.com. Also, if any of you listening out there, are impact organizations right now, we’ve got an impact awards going on right now, we do a great job of again, bringing those companies that are in the dark into the spotlight, through our publication, through all of our media resources and many of the CEOs come on the show as well.

Kevin E:

So that’s another outlet. And then of course, the course is launching here fully available for everybody online in June.

Gary S:

Awesome. I’ve got one more question and then I’m going to go back to Warwick. But you said something Kevin, in the form that we had you fill out that, and the question is one that we ask everybody, what in your professional estimation are the key principles and tangible action steps that can help people in the midst of a crucible move beyond it. And this is your response, and I’d love you to unpack it a little bit, because I think to Warwick’s point, we try to offer hope to people here. And I think what you say here offers a lot of-

Kevin E:

Yeah, please remind me what I said.

Gary S:

You say, “Understand who you are, where you want to go.” And I love this line, “And whatever gets in the way becomes the way.” Unpack that a little bit for folks.

Kevin E:

Right. Yes. The obstacle is the way. So if things are roadblocks in your life, let’s take for instance a relationship that you need to patch up, give that person a call. If your room is messy, clean it up. If there’s things that you are not getting done for your organization, get it done, stay disciplined, and you’re going to find that life is going to be a lot easier for you.

Kevin E:

So, I think anything that comes in the way we recognize that, and a lot of the times we think of it as a bad thing when reality it’s exactly what we have to do. So, you understand who you are and then the obstacle is the way. Absolutely.

Warwick F:

Wow. I mean, that is so profound. That’s very Crucible Leadership like, that the-

Gary S:

It’s also very stoicism-like, are you a big fan of The Stoics because I’ve… yeah.

Kevin E:

Yeah. It’s Marcus Aurelius, yeah.

Warwick F:

Yeah. We had somebody on the podcast actually, was it Joe Badaracco and there was Step Back… was it in that book? I think he mentioned that. He was also in the movie Gladiator, at least his character was. Marcus-

Gary S:

Not Joseph Badaracco, but-

Warwick F:

No, Marcus Aurelius the emperor of Rome.

Gary S:

Right. Yeah.

Warwick F:

Yeah. So-

Kevin E:

Here’s the caveat of that, is the part we don’t talk about, is the part you have to eliminate. What are those toxic relationships in your life? What are those things that are taking away time from you? Netflix, HBO, alcohol, drugs, staying inside. Those are the difficult things, and those are the obstacles. We’ve got to avoid those and eliminate those from our lives and eliminate everything that isn’t in our intention, that isn’t going to get to where we’re going. And again, we’re all human, we’re all flawed, it’s not going to be perfect, but just realizing those things when they happen, I think is half the battle.

Warwick F:

Wow. That’s very profound. What gets in the way becomes the way. That’s what we say on Crucible Leadership that sometimes crucible experiences they can be clarifying, maybe it’s, I should never do this again, or coming out of your pain, can be a purpose, like the Navy seal, I mentioned he was paralyzed and now has a clinic in San Diego. I mean, that’s really the core of Crucible Leadership.

Warwick F:

I guess maybe one last question is, if you interviewed a whole stack of people on Real Leaders, what would you say is the biggest lesson that you’ve learnt from interviewing all this people?

Kevin E:

Biggest lesson learned. I think is the one I shared earlier, is that you never know who’s going to show up on the opposite side. All of our guests have had amazing lessons that they’ve shared along the show, and there’s always something you can take away from every single interview. But I think really just for me personally, is just, you can do all the research you want, you can do all the preparation you want, but you really don’t know who is going to show up on the opposite side. So I hope today’s interview was good for you guys and being the guest this time around.

Warwick F:

No, absolutely. It was fantastic.

Kevin E:

I had a great time, I really enjoyed it.

Warwick F:

Yeah.

Gary S:

And I’ve been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word has been spoken on a subject. And that was it. The plane is indeed on the tarmac, on the runway on whatever it is they land. I get this wrong all the time, because I’m just not an aviation guy. But, before we go, I usually do some takeaways and I wrote three down. And then the more we talked, I’m like, well, we emphasize on this one a lot. So I’m going to stick to one takeaway for you today, listener from our conversation today, and that is something Kevin said and something Kevin’s lived, we call it a Crucible Leadership soul work, but it’s finding out what your unique gifts and passions are.

Gary S:

Kevin arrived at what he calls his north star, and what Warwick called when he was talking about it as his calling, by doing that soul work, asking others what made him unique, taking a hard look at his skills and vision, and it led him to his life’s purpose. Having meaningful conversations that change lives. Ask yourself with input from others what’s yours? What’s your purpose? And then get after it, because that is in Crucible Leadership language, your life of significance.

Gary S:

Thank you listener for spending time with us today. If you enjoyed this conversation with Kevin Edwards, we would ask you to subscribe to the podcast for sure, but share it with your friends, post it on social media, let people know about it because the more people who know about it, and Kevin is a great example of this. He drove all over the country, interviewed social entrepreneurs, sleeping on holey air mattresses, and now he’s got a podcast with a large platform where he is making a difference. So as you share it with people, it helps us get more people exposed to the content here. And if you like the content here, hopefully you’ll want to see that happen.

Gary S:

So until the next time we’re together, we ask you to remember this, the crucibles in your life are real, they’re painful, they hurt, they can knock you off your feet, but they are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles, the beginning of a new chapter in your story, and that new chapter can be the best chapter in your story, because where it’s going to lead to when the last period is put on the last page, is what we call a life of significance.