Significance That Lasts: Leaving an Intentional Legacy #12

Highlights

• Why the idea of leaving of legacy can be intimidating (2:09)
• Legacy is not first and foremost about leaving material things behind (5:21)
• The deeper legacy of John Fairfax (6:19)
• So what if you build an empire, but are remembered as a jerk? (8:20)
• We have to be intentional about the legacy we want to leave (9:59)
• A legacy is about more than just work accomplishment (11:22)
• It’s never too late to work on leaving an intentional legacy (15:47)
• The surprising legacies of music legends Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra and Johnny Cash … as reflected on their tombstones (16:08)
• The importance of balancing a successful legacy with a significant one (19:14)
• How the most meaningful legacies outlive you in critical ways (23:00)
• INC. magazine’s practical tips for leaders on leaving a legacy of significance (28:27)

Transcript

Gary S:
Welcome everybody to this episode of Beyond The Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And you have clicked play, you have clicked download, you have clicked subscribe on a podcast that deals with what the title says; crucible experiences. It deals with them in the context of your leadership. Your crucible experiences are those things that can be failures, that can be traumatic, tragic, difficult circumstances in your life. It’s those pain points that we all experience and we talk about them in the context of this show to not wallow in them, not to live in the past, but to bring the past forward to the present and the future and to help us come away with hope for overcoming those crucibles, strategies for overcoming those crucibles, moving past those crucibles and then ultimately to charting a course to a life of significance.

Gary S:
I am joined as always by the founder of Crucible Leadership and the host of Beyond The Crucible, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, it’s great to be back together again.

Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. Looking forward to it.

Gary S:
I talked at the outset about how we talk about crucible experiences in order to not live in the past, but to bring the past into the present and then bring the past through the future and the subject that we’re going to talk about today is really one that is focused on how we live today in the present and how that affects the future. We’re going to talk today about legacy. And it’s something that comes up an awful lot in Warwick’s writings, an awful lot in just the conversations he has as he talks about what crucible leadership’s about.

Gary S:
So Warwick, I’m going to sit back and let the listeners know a little bit about what legacy is and isn’t and how we go about building a good one.

Warwick F:
Thanks, Gary. Legacy is sort of a bit of a loaded word. For me, like for a lot of people, you think of legacy, how do you want to be remembered by? For me, growing up, I think a lot of listeners would know, in a large family media business in Australia, legacy was an intimidating word. Sort of a concept that brought almost fear because the company was founded by my great, great grandfather, John Fairfax. He’d come out from England in the late 1830s and he founded this huge media company that, by the time I was growing up, had newspapers, TV stations, radio stations, magazines. It was an enormous company with thousands of employees. So the legacy was huge.

Warwick F:
So I grew up in an environment where my parents were hoping that I could continue the legacy of the founder. They would say to me, “You could be one of the great Fairfax’s,” which, to me, translated to having a legacy that would impact Australia, where I grew up, the nation, the landscape. Somehow make it a better place. My name would live on for, I don’t know, long time.

Warwick F:
So if you’d asked me then what’s a legacy, it would be carrying on the ideals of the founder and making a name that would somehow make its mark in history. I mean, that’s a mammoth benchmark. And what made it worse in a sense, as I’m reflecting on it, is my dad loved history. He was a big Anglophile, loved everything in terms of English history. So we would read about, talk about some of the great heroes, whether it’s the Duke of Wellington, the Battle of Waterloo and the Napoleonic Wars, or Admiral Horatio Nelson before the Battle of Trafalgar sending a signal to the fleet saying, “England expects every man to do is duty.” I mean, stirring stuff. That was kind of the model.

Warwick F:
I loved American history. So whether it’s Lincoln, Washington, all these great leaders in history and it’s like, “Well, that’s what it is to leave a legacy,” I suppose in my naivety and youth. So yeah, it almost felt like leaving a legacy. What’s your chances of that, like one in a million? I mean, I have a different view now, but legacy felt so intimidating. It’s like, “Well, why bother?” Who could leave a legacy like Churchill, Lincoln, Nelson, even my great, great grandfather? It’s like you just give up.

Gary S:
And here’s the good news to all of our listeners. You do not have to be Churchill. You do not have to be Washington. You do not have to be Admiral Horatio Nelson. What we’re going to talk about today, the aspect of legacy that we’re going to talk about, is not that grand, is not that historic making necessarily. Nothing wrong if it is, but the legacy that we’re going to talk about is a bit more personal in the sense that it affects a smaller group of people and it reflects on the way that you lived your life.

Gary S:
One of the things that you didn’t mention, Warwick, that is part of the story of your great, great grandfather’s legacy, he was a big name and Fairfax Media was a huge operation in Australia. But there was also, and we think about this a lot when we think of legacy, sometimes we go there first. Legacy is about money. Legacy is about what you leave materially to the generation that follows. And I know in your own case that was true with part of the legacy that John Fairfax left.

Warwick F:
Yes, no. It’s a good point that certainly he came out from England in the late 1830s with pretty much nothing and built this huge media business. And yes, over succeeding generations, it led to his kids, grandkids, great grandkids having a far better lifestyle. Certainly wealth, money, power. Yes, all that was there. But there’s really a greater legacy, which was helpful to me because his listeners will know, when I launched the $2.25 billion takeover in ’87 and several years later the company went under my stewardship, if I was just focused on the family business legacy, that would be a little devastating because I ended it.

Warwick F:
But yet I would say there was a greater legacy and it was more his character. He was a wonderful dad, a wonderful husband. His kids loved him, wife loved him, his employees loved him. When he died, these employees felt they’d lost a very valued friend, somebody that they really admired.

Warwick F:
So really the way he treated people, his character, he was a person of great faith, an elder of his church. There was a legacy in terms of faith and character that was passed down in my family through the generations. So while at the time the faith became a bit more traditional, there was always this legacy of service. Our family members never tried to manipulate news to push any particular agenda. The goal was always to try to have it independent and fair, and it’s not always a challenge and that can be in the eye of the beholder. But certainly there wasn’t a sense of trying to manipulate things.

Warwick F:
And it was a sense of just service to the community. So the values and character, and certainly for me, the model of his faith, that was a legacy that was carried down through the generations. And ultimately now that’s more what I think of. Not so much, “Oh, what a great boss and he founded this newspaper business,” and that was good. That was a good legacy. I won’t shortchange it at all. But there was a greater legacy. And the greater legacy was more a combination of his character, faith, values how he treated people, and we’ll get to this more later, but think of the scripture, “What should it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul.”

Warwick F:
And I think, so what if you build this big empire, but your family and friends just think you’re a jerk? What’s the point? I remember many years ago listening to a radio station about somebody who founded one of the biggest nonprofits in the world and helps people in pretty much every country, especially where poverty is an issue. And I remember his daughter was on this radio program and she was so bitter because he had this notion, which as unfortunately a person of faith because he said, “I’ve done this deal with God that he’ll look after my family while I go off and do all these wonderful nonprofit things,” which totally distorts, I think a true faith position.

Warwick F:
And she was angry. She was bitter because she didn’t really see much of a dad because he’s running around saving the world. I remember listening to that saying, “I don’t want to be that person. I don’t care how much good I do, I do not want to abandon my wife and kids. That’s not going to be me.” Okay. He founded this great organization, but at what cost? Is that really the legacy you want to live? I mean, I don’t want to be that guy.

Gary S:
Right. And that’s another bit of good news for you, listener, is you do not have to leave $2.25 billion companies behind for the next generations. But those things that Warwick was talking about that we’re going to get into now, we’ve talked a little bit about what isn’t the legacy that necessarily Crucible Leadership is urging people, is trying to help people establish. We’ve talked about what it may not be. But let’s unpack, Warwick, what it might be.

Gary S:
And you recently wrote about this in a blog and one of the things that struck me about one of the things that you wrote was that we have to be intentional about our legacy and to think about it in terms of what do you want your epitaph to be? What do you want people to say about you after you’re gone? How do you want to encourage people? How do you want them to look back? And the way that you look back on John Fairfax, how do you want the future generations in your own family and perhaps if you have a somewhat larger footprint in society or in your spheres of influence, how do you want people to look at you? So unpack for listeners a little bit about what are a few of the things that we can all be thinking about when we’re thinking about establishing a lasting legacy.

Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, I’ll start with work because that’s often what we think of legacy and it’s so far beyond that that I don’t want to say it’s wrong to be successful, nor do I want to say it’s wrong to make a mark. But it’s more, as I’ve come to realize, it’s less the size of the organization that you might be involved in or your position in it. From a work perspective, it’s more are you doing work that you feel is meaningful, that it’s contributing to society in some way? That you feel like is helping lead a life of significance, help others.

Warwick F:
So yes, that is part of it, but the size, size doesn’t matter. But it’s more than just work. We often think our legacy just about what we do. We’re going to do some wonderful thing. But it’s more about, as much about how do you want to be remembered? Whether it’s your tombstone or somebody’s giving a eulogy at your funeral. Do you want to just be, “Hey, Fred or Mary made millions or billions.” Is that it? It just seems so empty.

Warwick F:
Typically when we’re on our deathbed, we’re not thinking that way. We’re thinking, “What does my wife or husband think? What do my kids think? What of my friends, what of my coworkers?” That’s often a legacy that’s more important. That really gets more into character. How do our beliefs and values translate into how we treat those that love us? Values and beliefs are the cornerstone, our careers, everything we do needs to be in line with that. And to me, if we have a family, and this is certainly my position, if you’re going to have a family, you can’t neglect it. You can’t just abandon your wife, husband or kids and somehow feel like, “Oh, I’m serving some greater cause.” Some people may think that’s okay. I think that’s just wrong. That’s just, I mean, if you’re going to have a family, care for them.

Warwick F:
I mean, I think in my own family, I love my dad very much. I was born when he was in his late fifties. He was married three times, my mother was married twice and I think especially the kids from his first marriage, he was in his 20s, 30s, 40s. He was very involved in the newspaper, was in there all hours working very hard. He was wealthy and so people in the 30s, who were wealthy, they might take a trip to England or Europe for a year. Well, he left his kids at home. There was a nanny looking after them. Now it’s almost like child abuse. But believe it or not, it was not uncommon in society in those days. I loved him very much, but I would never just leave my kids, they were very small, for a year.

Warwick F:
I was a little bit off topic, but he was raised by nannies. I had a nanny when I was small. My kids grew up comfortably, but there’s no way we would have a nanny raise our kids. We took our kids to soccer or recitals. That, to me, is important. And one of the things as I reflect in my own, obviously nobody’s perfect, but what’s interesting to me is one of the things we do on birthdays is we say what we admire about whoever the person’s birthday is and we have some writers in the family and so we write cards and all. And over the years what’s staggering to me, and my kids are all in their twenties now, my boys who played soccer, my daughter did color guard, which is people wave the flags with marching band and concerts and stuff. They all basically said, “Dad, I really appreciated the fact that you were there at my game. At my soccer games, marching band, color guard, concerts. You were there.”

Warwick F:
And I’m not perfect. I’m sure that a lot of things I’ve done wrong, but I’m glad they didn’t say, “Dad, you know what? You were never there at my game. You were never there.” So that’s something that I’m just so grateful. It’s staggering how every single card they ever write, they always say that year after year after year. So all that’s to say is, I know I’m harping on this a bit, but I believe in a strong, if you’re going to have a family be present because that’s the legacy ultimately. It may be the most important legacy that your kids, your grandkids, you want to be admired and respected. You don’t want to say, “Yep, guy or woman was really successful, but I hardly ever knew them. They were never there.”

Warwick F:
You just don’t want to be that person. When it comes to legacy family first, so to speak, friends, coworkers, that’s a legacy that you can influence no matter how prominent or not prominent you are. You might live in a big city, a small town. That’s a legacy we can all influence. And trust me, not many of us are there and listening to this, and hopefully it isn’t anybody in their death bed listening to this podcast. For most of us, we’re not there today. You don’t want to be on your death bed saying, “I blew it,” because there’s no second chances. And what would will you be thinking? You’ll be thinking about those that you love; spouse, kids, friends. That’s the legacy that ultimately will matter to you. So if it matters to you on your deathbed, why not get a headstart and start worrying about it now and start doing something.

Gary S:
Right. It’s interesting that you bring that up about on your death bed and how you want to be remembered on your tombstone. You and I’ve talked about this many times, but I did a little research and if you go back and you look at arguably the three most successful well-known musical stars of the last hundred years. Those would be Elvis Presley for rock and roll, Johnny Cash for country, Frank Sinatra for jazz standards. All of them have passed, and I didn’t tell you this as we were prepping for this podcast, but I did some research. Of those three, they had 42 number one singles in their careers. That is Herculean success when it comes to their chosen careers in music.

Gary S:
How many, listener, we’ll ask you this question rhetorically because you can’t answer to us, but how many of those number one records do you think are mentioned on their tombstone? Warwick, you want to answer that question?

Warwick F:
I have a feeling it’s none.

Gary S:
You’re right, it’s zero. Just very briefly, here’s what is on the tombstones of those three individuals that I spoke of. Frank Sinatra’s tombstone simply says, “Beloved husband and father.” Johnny Cash’s tombstone simply contains the text, or one of the verses from Psalm 19. Psalm 19:14, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, Oh Lord, my strength and my Redeemer.” A man with 13 number one hits, that’s what he chose to be remembered for on his tombstone. Elvis Presley, there is some mention down a very long tombstone, there is some mention of the fact that he changed music and he did some things like that, but no specifics about gold records, big hits, none of that stuff. And it says simply at the top in the biggest letters, “Elvis Aaron Presley, son of Vernon Elvis Presley and Gladys Love Presley and father of Lisa Marie Presley.”

Gary S:
Here you have these people who have every reason to boast in their accomplishments, every reason to focus on their legacy being what they accomplished. And instead they focused on the things that you were just talking about, their family and their faith.

Warwick F:
And that to me says a lot. So think of these three, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash. They’re on their death bed. Do you think they’re thinking, “Boy, I’m so glad for those 41 hits, all the amazing songs?” I think they were grateful. I think they enjoyed it, but that wouldn’t have been their last thoughts. I can’t imagine. They’d be thinking of their kids, their spouse.

Warwick F:
So I don’t want to say don’t pursue your dreams, but there’s nothing wrong with being the next Walt Disney or George Lucas or Steven Spielberg. People that have founded a huge, in this case, movie empires and brought a lot of joy and happiness to people through their work. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you don’t have to be at that level. It could be a small business in a small town or you could be a factory worker for some local plant for 50 years. It doesn’t really matter that much in the whole some scheme of things. It’s more how do those who you’ll leave behind, how will they remember you, your family, your friends, your spouse? How do you want to be remembered? Ultimately, that’s what was important to these three, to Johnny Cash, Elvis Presley and Frank Sinatra.

Warwick F:
So I think we can learn from them. Again, I keep saying is I don’t want people to say, “Okay, so just stick your head in the sand and do nothing.” No, meaningful work where you’re leading a life of significance to help others, that’s fine. But the size of your accomplishment doesn’t matter because for most of us, we’re not going to be remembered by history, 99% of us won’t be remembered now still less in 10, 20 years, 100 years, 1,000 years. It’s kind of meaningless in the whole sum scheme of history.

Warwick F:
Can any of us remember who were some of the great figures in 300AD or something. You know? I mean, maybe there’s a couple of historians, most of us, no. Most of us don’t care. So just how you treat others, how you’re remembered by those that love you. As Gary said, “What do you want on your tombstone?”

Warwick F:
And just picture this. Imagine somebody is giving your eulogy. Now imagine you could give them some notes. Not suggesting you write your eulogy before you die and hand it to your descendants, to read. But just think about what would you like them to say about you? And then do an assessment of your own life and say, “Okay, how far off am I from what I would like that eulogy to look like?” And if you feel like there’s a gap, and for some of us that might be a big gap, what can we do now?

Warwick F:
And that may mean choices. If you’re a traveling salesman and you’re gone 52 weeks a year, well maybe you need to find another way to help support your family so that you’re going to be around a bit more. Life’s about choices, but make choices in your life that are in line with your values and beliefs and your legacy and in line with how the eulogy that you want to be given, not the one that may be given, but the one that you want to be given. The time is now to make those life defining, legacy defining choices.

Warwick F:
Don’t wait on your death bed and say, “I blew it.” Now’s the time to change the course of your life, assuming it needs changing, to leave a legacy that you want to leave. A legacy that your family, friends, coworkers, will admire. That’s something that every single listener here can make a significant difference in. That is in your control to change. Other things in life, you can’t control. Your legacy, I don’t know about control it, but you can significantly influence your legacy. Everybody can do that.

Gary S:
Right. I want to circle back to your great, great grandfather, John Fairfax, because yes, there’s an ending point. There’s a natural point to talk about legacy on the death bed, on your tombstone. But there’s also what we talk about, a living legacy. And Warwick, I would submit, and I’d like to hear your comments on this for the listeners, but John Fairfax’s legacy is still living today beyond his tombstone, beyond his eulogy. It’s still living today in you and in your children. Fair?

Warwick F:
It is and it’s interesting. There’s one other quote that I want to read because I think it has a different meaning than I think I maybe originally thought. So, john Fairfax was a man of great faith, went to the Pitt Street Congregational Church in Sydney, which is still standing. It’s in downtown Sydney. And the pastor, at his funeral, he chose as his text, 2 Samuel 3:38. And in the King James, which is kind of what they used back then, says this. “Know ye not that there is a prince and a great man fallen this day in Israel.” And you think, “Okay fine. So he was kind of like a king and did really well.” He did well.

Warwick F:
But when I look at that, it’s more why did they consider him a prince and a great man? I would say it was far more about his character, about how he treated people, how his employees looked at him, how his wife and kids looked at him. That, to me, is what made him a great man.

Warwick F:
And so it’s that model of faith and how people should be treated, it’s certainly influenced generations of my family. And for me, when I came to my own faith journey, came to faith in Christ, it was really, even back then in my 20s, it was more about who he was as a person and how he treated people. There’s a biography of him written in the 1940s that’s sort of a loving portrait and the person it paints him to be is just awe inspiring in terms of character. So that was a model for me and in my own way tried to live it to hopefully pass down to my kids. That’s a legacy of both faith, family, how you treat people with respect.

Warwick F:
Also a sense of humility, which to me, I’m sure he had. Humility is a hugely important value, especially when you come from such wealth as I did. So that sense of just not thinking that you’re better than other people and just respect others. So there was a legacy of character that’s been passed down from him through generations that my wife and I, I think are trying to pass onto our kids. So that’s a legacy that’s lasted… I’m the fifth generation. That’s a legacy that’s lasted five generations.

Gary S:
Six if you obviously weave your children into it. Yeah.

Warwick F:
So you might say, how in the world could I leave a legacy that last five or six generations? A legacy of character can last that long. A family business, well, ours lasted five. Few businesses last that long. No matter how good a job you’ve done, it’s not going to last.

Warwick F:
But character, in some sense, can be eternal. Character, the values, that can be passed on from generation to generation. From an economic perspective, that’s a better investment. Character. It’s going to last a lot longer. So yeah, it’s had a huge impact.

Gary S:
One of the things I keep thinking about as we talk about this and we’re getting to the point where we’ve got to land the plane soon. The landing gear is down. But I want to hit this point because we talk a lot at Crucible Leadership. You, Warwick, are the author of this sentiment as it applies to Crucible Leadership. You talk a lot about living a life of significance and Crucible Leadership is about ways in which you can recover from crucible moments, learn the lessons, discover how you’re designed and how you’ve been refined, what your vision is so that you can point yourself toward a life of significance. But it strikes me that what we’re talking about here in legacy, if the end result of Crucible Leadership on Earth is to have lived a life of significance, is it fair to say that where we should aim our legacy is to be a legacy of significance? Is that fair?

Warwick F:
It is because when we talk about a life of significance, it’s a life lived on purpose in some sense, a higher purpose however you define it, that’s devoted to helping others. And so a legacy of significance, it’s one where you’re remembered as somebody that’s focused on other people. You’re kind, you’re humble, you want the best for your spouse and your kids and your friends. You’re a giving selfless person. So whether it’s at work or at home, that sense of significance, a life, not devoted to your own ego or own aggrandizement of riches, power and money, but more a life dedicated to the service of others. That kind of life of significance will leave a lasting legacy, a legacy of significance. If you live a life of significance, you have a much greater chance of having a legacy that you’ll be proud of. And a legacy that will last.

Gary S:
Well, as the copilot of this plane that we’re about to land, I’m going to take the liberty of addressing the passengers on the plane as we close up. I found on Inc Magazine, for those of you listeners who are saying, “Okay, this all sounds great. How do I do it? What are some things I can do?” Warwick talked about, your family needs to be a priority, but here are five practical tips that Inc Magazine, which is a business magazine, offered for leaders that are also applicable to all of us every day.

Gary S:
But here’s five things that you can do to leave a meaningful legacy just very quickly. One, prioritize people over results. Two, invest your time and money, and they put time first. Invest your time in people invest your time in things that you care about. Three, I love this one. Connect in person. In this day and age, we spend so much time connecting electronically. We’re grateful that we have the opportunity to connect electronically with you, listener. But in your lives, connect in person. Warwick talked about it, about your family, about your friends, connect in person, make time for that.

Gary S:
Another thing that Inc suggested was to model behavior that you want to last. Do the things in your life that you want to be remembered for. Do the things in your life that you want people to follow. Create disciples in that sense. Be a mentor to someone in that sense. Those are just five very practical takeaway steps as you’re looking at this idea of legacy. You’re looking to lead a life of significance out of your crucible moment. How then do you make sure that in addition to doing that, you’re also leaving a legacy of significance? Those are just four things that one publication, Inc Magazine, suggested.

Warwick F:
What’s interesting to me about that is some people might say, “Okay, is he saying I can’t pursue success and I got to care about coworkers, friends, and family?” Well, if you listen carefully, those points at Inc Magazine, the reality is if you treat your employees and your coworkers well, they’re more likely to work harder to stay. You’ll attract the best and the brightest. Who wants to work for somebody that cheats, steals or takes all the adulation for them, brow beats them, treats them badly? Those who have a choice leave. The best and the brightest, they’re the first ones to go and say, “Forget this.”

Warwick F:
So treating people well with care and respect actually makes good business sense. So the bottom line is by caring for your family, treating them well, loving, respecting them, respecting coworkers, leaving a legacy that you’d be proud of, that you will be remembered by. You might just find, maybe you want to have some multimillion dollar business, but whatever you’re doing it will probably have done better than if you had lived a life differently.

Warwick F:
So the bottom line is commercial success and treating people well and leaving a legacy that you’d be proud of, those two things, rather than being against each other, I think at least in some sense, one can support the other. It’s not either or. So I think what that Inc Magazine says is really very telling.

Gary S:
Well a wise co-pilot knows when to let the pilot have the last word when it’s a good last word. So we’re going to sign off now and we’re going to thank you listeners for joining us on Beyond The Crucible. If you found this discussion insightful and helpful as you pursue not only a life of significance but hopefully a legacy of significance, we have a favor to ask that will help us help more people just like you who are seeking a way to move beyond their crucible experiences. Here’s the idea. Very simple. Here’s the favor. Please subscribe to Beyond The Crucible on the app that you’re listening to right now. It will allow you to make sure you don’t miss an episode and it will make it easier for others to find us, listen to us and share the podcast with their friends and coworkers.

Gary S:
And if you’ve heard anything today that you’d like to learn more about, we encourage you to visit us on the web CrucibleLeadership.com. And one of the things that you can do there as you begin to walk out, as you continue to walk out this path toward a life of significance, a legacy of significance, one of the things you’ll find there is a free short assessment that will allow you to see where you are, give you insight to where you are on this road from crucible experience on one end to life of significance, legacy of significance, on the other. Visit CrucibleLeadership.com and you’ll be able to take this assessment for no cost and really jumpstart your quest for a life of significance.

Gary S:
So until the next time that we’re together, do remember that crucible experiences can be painful. They can feel like your entire world has collapsed in upon you. But the good news is, as Warwick proven himself and as Crucible Leadership talks about, those crucible experiences aren’t the end of your story. Those crucible experiences can actually be the beginning of a new chapter in your story that leads to something phenomenal, a life of significance and a legacy of significance.