Relationships, including with those we call fellow travelers, are critical, we learn in this week’s episode, to crafting the resilience we need to move beyond our crucibles.

Our guest this week, Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier, is a pioneer in the field of strategic resilience. Her studies and experience have taught her that thriving through setback and failure is not a trait we manifest innately, but a skill we must build. How do we do it?

As you’ll discover in her conversation with Warwick, Dr. Pelletier says the change professionals and leaders need to make is to approach their resilience the same way they approach a successful business using a strategic plan. That’s what creates helpful, sustainable, and reliable long-term resilience.

The key components to that plan, she says, include relationships, knowing what energizes you and what drains you, and leaning into your values as you consider your next action step on your journey back from trials and challenges.

To learn more about Dr. Pelletier, visit www.drmarie-helene.com

To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and be sure to tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Let's say right now you are very surrounded. You've got your own executive coach, you've got your own peer network. You talk to Gary on a regular basis, this is there. So if you're creating a strategic plan to get your resilience to the next level, it doesn't need to be there. It's already part of your life. It's in, you're good. You're going to focus on other things. But if it's not there, it will probably become a pillar to say, oh my God, I've been focusing on other projects and I've let go of investing in relationships even though each of our plans will be different based on our values and all this. The reality is we do have research that indicates the kinds of things that will, we know from research, increase our resilience. Relationships is one of them.
Gary Schneeberger:
Relationships, including with those we call fellow travelers are critical, we learn in this week's episode, to crafting the resilience we need to move beyond our crucibles. Hi, I am Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Our guest this week, Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier is a pioneer in the field of strategic resilience. Her studies and experience have taught her that thriving through setback and failure is not a trait we manifest innately, but a skill we must build. How do we do it? As you'll discover in her conversation with Warwick, Dr. Pelletier says the change professionals and leaders need to make is to approach their resilience the same way they approach a successful business using a strategic plan. That's what creates helpful, sustainable, and reliable long-term resilience. The key components to that plan, she says, include relationships, knowing what energizes you and what drains you, and leaning into your values as you consider your next action step on your journey back from trial.
Warwick Fairfax:
Thank you Marie-Helene for being here. Just so looking forward to the discussion. Really enjoyed reading your book and so many interesting things in there about having a resilient strategy. Never thought about that before. We will be diving into that, but I know you live in Vancouver in the British Columbia area, but I think from Quebec or I guess as English speakers, but I guess it should be Quebec, so I'll try. But tell us what life was like for you growing up, and obviously you became a psychologist and then got your MBA. Were there clues in your background growing up that you could look back and say, well, it's not a surprise that Marie-Helene would go into psychology as a vacation?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Well, and it's an absolute pleasure to be here with both of you. It is a good question. I was looking actually not that long ago to my high school graduation book and what was in there, and one of the things at the time, there's a few pieces that I think we're not saying clearly, this is what I would do, and plus some of that I discovered as I went, really, I had not decided I would do business after psychology. I did psychology, and then I can explain how I got there, but that's where I went. But in terms of earlier years, I was very much interested in anything scientific.
So science in general, which there's tons of, that's what psychology is based on. So there's a lot of that there. Most of what I do right now is public speaking, giving keynotes and that kind of thing. At the time, I spent two and a half years, almost three years in a group that were singing and dancing, so doing lots of shows internationally, the whole thing. I was on a stage basically, so when you become a speaker and at some point people tell you, oh, you're going to get to those audiences where you don't see the audience because the lights are so big and all that. I already knew that. So there was some pieces like this, but the rest, as I said, just came with the, it's where the road took me.
Warwick Fairfax:
So what kind of musical shows did you do?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
It was, I know. It was a group of, so the group itself was fairly large, about 50 people on stage. We were usually about 30, and it was a group that would sing on mostly songs that were very popular in that moment and do just choreographed dancing with that, which since then, there's been many other groups, way more professional, high level than we were at the time, but because of the time, it actually worked really well. We did the Paris Olympia in there.
Warwick Fairfax:
Wow.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Yeah, I know.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's amazing.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Who knew?
Warwick Fairfax:
But I'm sure that probably helped later, the whole stage fright thing, which I know you talk about in the book, so that's fascinating. So you made a decision to become a psychologist. There's a lot of areas of science, why psychology? What about psychology just pulled you in and you thought, gosh, this is me. I love psychology.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Yeah, I loved, I was amazed and at the time, again, for me, we're talking what, over 25 years ago, so now psychology is very popular. It's a degree that many people consider even as a first thing to do. They do it out of interest, all this. At the time, no, no, no. Everyone who was doing a bachelor degree in psychology was clearly on track to become a psychologist, this is what we were doing. You'd often have to explain almost what we did. Mental health was not a topic that was easily discussed, definitely not in the workplace. So for me, it realizing the amount of research that was available, the amount of change that most of us could experience in such a positive, significant way if we knew about this information, and so that to me was enough to say, okay, yes, need to do this.
Warwick Fairfax:
Interesting. So it almost seems like you went in to understand psychology because it could empower people.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
Some people go into it thinking, I want to help and fix people or cure people that might feel broken, and obviously what does that mean? I guess obviously there's scientific terms, but for you it felt like, I want to empower people. People now talk about positive psychology. That probably wasn't a thing 20 years ago, but it's more popular now.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
That's right. It was just emerging. But even when there is a thing that is challenging that we would like to in some ways fix or change, one of my areas of specialization has been anxiety in different ways because at the time it was clinical psychology and that's what was there. But even then, if you're dealing with, say, panic attacks on a daily or on a weekly basis, learning the tools and being able to apply them is a major life shift and it is empowering even in that context. So yes, it was very much my approach to it for different situations.
Warwick Fairfax:
I think you've written a bit about how you got from psychology to business and decided to get an MBA, which I think if you mentioned there aren't that many folks who have a psychology background and a business background. They seem to be different, but you-
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Plus, We're done with schooling at some point.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. So what led you to the business side to MBA?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
I was probably already a bit different from a larger majority of my colleagues here, and then I realized I was also a bit different from my business colleagues, so I'm an in of one no matter where I go. But what happened though is I decided to do my doctoral research about 20 years ago in the area of the time that was called telehealth. So could we, using video conferencing, provide therapy at a distance? Hello, we all do it now, blah, blah, blah. But at the time, we could not even use the internet to do it. It was not fast enough. I had to use six telephone lines to transmit both video and audio data to test whether this was even an option. So it required me doing a lot of relationship building. I had to have supervisors from Hawaii because, and there was an Army medical center dispatched there that would use telehealth a lot with US Army on ships.
I had to find people like this to contribute to my overall research. I also had to get a lot of people to either fund the research, find people to even work in a volunteer way with me. And so it ended up being a lot of management of money, of networking, of organizing of all this, and then I finished and I went to my PhD supervisor. I said, I'm going to need a recommendation letter. She said, fantastic postdoc. And I said, no, we're doing an MBA. That's how I realized that's at that moment, I knew this is what I was interested in doing next. So that's how it happened.
Warwick Fairfax:
It seems like you always wanted to empower people. And then so the whole management organizational challenges with telehealth, did it feel like I want to use my psychological training in the business world to empower people, empower systems, individuals, high performers? Do you feel like your vision sort of found you, if you will?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Oh, yes, very much so. It was a combination of taking risks, trying different things, seeing what's connecting with my values, what's important for me, and then seeing what's there and taking opportunities. And yes, at times knowing that it may or may not work, but we're trying this.
Warwick Fairfax:
When did you decide that your life's work would revolve around residents?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
It happens because as I started doing more roles in leadership, senior leadership roles, that kind of thing, in the various organizations I was in, inevitably there would be at times people who would say, okay, we need to talk to one of your executive coaches or psychologist, and we want one of your most senior people kind of thing. So that ended up being with me. Then I ended up working a lot with professionals and leaders who were fabulous at so many things they do, and at some point needing something to give them an edge.
And I realized, oh, that is that proactive resilience. And many times, especially in the recent years, they were of course very aware of all the things we should do to increase our resilience they did not have time to make any of this happen. And then I realized it is in part because they're not being strategic about it, and it's through giving examples, helping them see it that way, seeing how it clicked and completely made sense to them that I thought, okay, and then, well, the other thing that happened is a number of them would at some point say, this is so helpful.
I'm so glad I have this now. I wish I had it sooner. And then I heard this a few times and eventually I clicked. I said, if I write it, someone's going to get it sooner. That will be one good thing. And yeah, that's what led to the book.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, that's interesting. So there's a story which we'll get to in a second of you with your husband, Nick in the Canadian Rockies, but before we get there, it seems like it's sort of a backdrop to that. One of the things you write about, there's a lot of high-performing leaders that tend to feel like I got here because I can get through anything. I'm like, Superman, Superwoman, I can get, I'm bulletproof. It's just like, give me a challenge and I laugh at the challenge and here we go, never met a challenge I can't overcome.
Then eventually you do find a challenge that's like, it's not a speed bump. It's like Mount Everest, and even high performing leaders when they hit Mount Everest, it's like, huh. I've never experienced this challenge in my life. I've got challenges at home, challenges at work. It seems like there is a trap for almost high performing leaders to a degree of setup to fail, because they've been so successful. It's like, resilience? That's for the other guy, that's for lesser mortals than me being this heroic successful figure. Did you sort of find that you had almost people with delusions of, I don't need resilience because I'm superhuman kind of thing?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Yes, yes. And that's interesting because even these leaders, and in many of these that includes me, we will actually tell others. That includes me. That could happen to me as well. You say the things because logically, of course, yeah, no, but deep down you're thinking not really. And now, it's in part what happens is, it's not just your fault. Yes, The reality is you've gone through a number of challenges and not everyone has, and you did and it worked, and so okay, there's a logic there. And then the other piece that happens too is people around you start telling you, you are the rock. You can do this, you can do anything. You're the rock of the family, the rock of the team.
You're like, yes, like I said earlier, we can throw anything at you, and it's obviously said in a very positive, highly valued way. So you take it and then there may be a little voice in the back of your head that says, well, careful, actually, you're human like everybody else, but no, no, no, you don't listen to this. You just carry on. And so it does become a trap. The solution to that trap, it's not complicated. It doesn't take any of your strengths or your abilities or none of this, but being realistic about it and being realistic about the fact that yes, we do need to nourish it is what changes everything.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And we'll get into this in a moment, just being proactive before the hurricane hits, so to speak. When the hurricane hits, it's not the time to say, let's plan on what to do. It's a bit late at that point. So talk about, it's almost like a parable, if you will, a real life parable of when you're on this eight day trek in the Canadian Rockies with your husband, and just talk about, there's a radical difference between day one and day eight that, again, is really, you weren't trying to exemplify your life's work. You weren't trying to be your life's work. Obviously that wasn't the goal, and you probably already had written some of these thoughts. I don't know if the book was published back then, but it's not like you had no thoughts about resilience or no understanding, I'm guessing, by the time you went on this trek. Just talk about that trip and why that is really a parallel in some sense of your work.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Yeah, well, so the short version of the stories, just so everyone can understand a bit of what we're talking about here, what had happened is, yes, Nick and I did a fair bit of mountaineering, various trekking in different countries and all this, and yes, on that year we had decided to go do that eight-day traverse in the Canadian Rockies, which involved crossing a river on the first day. And we did in a very successful way with lots of planning, plan A, plan B, strategizing together, and of course we were quite fresh. It was day one. Turns out, midway through that traverse, we, for all kinds of reason, could not continue made the decision to come back. We had almost no choice, really. So we came back, which meant we recrossed this river, but the river was much bigger than the first time because it was late June of a year that had received a lot of snow, so it was actually much more tumultuous, and yeah, I almost drowned in that second situation.
And then the learning after, well after, it was, okay, wait, this really functions the same way for us in our work life as it relates to resilience on the equivalent of day one, where we're at our best, fresh, high energy, we're planful, we're strong, it all works out. Bring on the challenges. And then we get to a different context, like the equivalent of day eight there where we're like, yes, very drained from eight additional days of walking. The challenge looks the same, but it's not. It's much bigger, but we treat it the same way, blah, blah, blah. Well, then it puts our resilience in the story, our life really, but our resilience at risk, and what could change that is being more realistic about the context we're in, being differently planful and protecting our resilience.
Gary Schneeberger:
We talk a lot on the show about resilience. That's one of the words we say most often, and I think it's important for listeners and viewers to hear what you're saying. You were a bit of an expert in this subject and you went on this mountaineering trip with your husband and you fell short of some of the resilience goals that you maybe thought were innate. And I think one of the things that this episode is going to do a real lot of help for people is to explore how resilience isn't just something you're born with.
It's not innate. It's not, to Warwick's point earlier, it's not a superpower that, hey, I think we think we can manifest it at all times, and the perspective you bring is so important because you have to work at that in the same way you can't manifest big muscles all the time. You got to go to the gym. It's the same sort of thing. So I just want to make sure folks understand that and hear that, that what we're going to explore now is how you build that resilience plan and that resilience muscle to move forward.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, excellent point, Gary, and I love what you say, Marie-Helene, in their book that resilience is not a given. You need a strategy and it's not a one and done, it's sort of diet and exercise. Well, I went to the gym six months ago and I ate right and didn't eat any junk food and I'm good. I just do that once a year and I'm fine. No, if you don't do it regularly, there'll be a decline in your ability to perform at your optimal level. And I have a feeling that resilience is the same way. You've got to be doing things constantly to be at your maximum resilience performance level, which is counterintuitive for many people. It's like, hey, once I've gotten through five or 10 different crises, well, I have the tool. I mean, I know what I need to do, and there's some truth in that, but in life, you can get a little flabby and overconfident, and just because you accomplished some feat that required resilience doesn't mean you don't have to keep in shape, if that makes sense.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
It does. And there is, I think, a couple of pieces to add to these analogies. So yes, in order to build a muscle, you want to, for example, go to the gym, and there will be times where there isn't a gym or you cannot go to the gym or you are in three airports over the course of 20 hours, there's not going to be a gym. Some airports do have them, yay, but most of the time, not really. So what do we do in these circumstances? Sometimes the context changes and there will be different ways to maintain your training. Maybe you're going to walk gate to gate more often even if you don't need to. So taking your context into account is important in terms of taking actions today. The other piece too is, to your other comment work, is that sometimes we'll use old data to decide where we're at now. Sometimes we'll say, oh yeah, I've gone through these, whatever, 10, 25, whatever, different things, and therefore I'm good.
Well, okay, you went through these things and they happened in a certain context. The context today is not the same. So if you are deciding that you're fine because you did these things, you were fine when you did these things, relatively, and it's old data if you try to apply this now. Different times. If we're wanting to increase our resilience even further, our ability to go through all these challenges, then we want to take into account our context. We can't just say, oh yeah, let's do all the things. That's where people get stuck. They can't. They don't.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. One of the fascinating things about your model is this whole supply and demand, which obviously economists are very familiar with that, but in resilience you talk about areas that give you energy and health and then other areas that drain, and you talk about a ratio of supply to demand. So talk about that, because that seems, it makes sense, but somewhat revolutionary to talk about supply and demand in resilience.
Gary Schneeberger:
That is indeed a very fresh concept. The notion of supply and demand in resilience. Discover how Dr. Pelletier answers Warwick's question after these words from our sponsors.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
It's just terms that, and I use the terms differently than into the ways an economist would use them here, like you said, I mean your sources of energy, what brings it up, and the places where it comes down. In itself, fairly simple. Everyone's nodding, yes, okay, here are the problems. What happens is we overestimate our sources of supply. Seriously. Every single time I ask someone, what brings you energy and what do you do that brings you energy? They will start listing, oh yeah, going for walks, sometimes on my own or with my partner, and they list all kinds of things. Then I say, great. In the past two weeks, how many times? Well, the past three months have been extremely busy, so not now, but in general. So we overestimate all of these. Then when we're looking at the demands, I say, okay, what kinds of demands are you facing?
And then they usually one to three things at work that they don't like, big demands, and that's it. And it's only when I stay longer and I say, okay, what else is going on at work and at home? Demands that, yeah, the ones you would prefer not to have, but also those that you are happy to have. It's just that they're demanding energy, a renovation at home, a new role at work, a new team member at work that you need to support a bit more. You want these things, but they still represent demands.
Point is, we underestimate these. So between overestimating the supply and underestimating the demands, again, we've got no reason to invest in our resilience because we're great. But when we become realistic about this, and that's one of the worksheets, we'll have them in the show notes if your audience is interested, but there are worksheets that are free there. You can do them with the book or without the book that just allow you to make that reflection. And many times I've heard people do that particular one that you picked as a game changer for them, because if you pair this, then with your values, for example and other aspects, then your next actions start to emerge.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's funny, as I was reading your book, I'm somebody that's, I think very carefully before saying yes, I'm a reflective person. I don't make decisions quickly, which has its pluses and minuses. So I tend, and I'm from Australia. In Australia, it's not like North America. We actually do, no offense, value vacations and downtime. It's a cultural value.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Yay for that.
Warwick Fairfax:
So nobody's going to say, I'm going to take off three or four weeks and go backpacking and Southeast Asia or see the mountains in Europe. Everybody would say, great, good for you. Here, it's like, what's your problem? Going to get off the fast track? But anyway, even for me, when we go to a non-denominational church here, and there were a couple of board committees and it's like, well, I can do those. And again, I think because I'm not leading them, but it gave me pause saying, am I doing something that's somewhat unusual for me and saying yes to things I shouldn't have said yes to just because I really want to do them? And we don't need to get into the analysis here, but reading your book made me think, even if there's somebody like me that tends to be very cautious about saying yes, even for me, it's possible, if you get what I'm saying, I don't tend to jump in and say yes to thousands of things. That's not my nature.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Yes. Well, but it's a great point what you're saying because sometimes people think that because we're, however we define it, say, more reflective, slower at making decisions, or we're more introverted, whatever the reasons are that we're not impulsively saying yes as if that automatically protected us. No, no, no, no. Sometimes in here, in that reflection comes all kinds of beliefs that will make you say yes, this is what everyone expects of me. This is the right thing to do. Or feeling any kind of guilt in case you say no, so therefore you say yes. I mean, this could all be happening here. We're not less at risk over here. So it's a great observation because I'm sure some of our listeners today may otherwise may have thought that too.
Gary Schneeberger:
One of the things that leaps to mind work was just saying that there's some things that he likes to do, but does he have, is it possible for something to be both something that gives you satisfaction but also drains on you? I mean, can you have something that is both of these opposites in some ways that you talk about as part of the resilience model? Can something be two things at once, good and bad like that?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Yes. The example most of my audiences will naturally come up with is usually golf. They'll say, what do I do with this? Which column does my golfing go in? So yes, that's an example. It's a good one. And there are others, of course, yes, that will happen as well. And that's okay because when we're doing this kind of reflection, different from, say, the analysts on Wall Street, for example, where there is only one place for that number and here is the column for it. In this reflection, it's a bit more fluid. So we need to tolerate that fact that, yeah, well look at this. It goes in both columns, it's fine. And then you just continue your reflection still because we're the human side of things where, yes, at times it will be like this, but I love that you brought it up because otherwise sometimes people can get stuck with it and not feel that there's doing something wrong. No, you're not. Just carry on, keep going. We need this reflection to continue so you can get to your strategic resilience plan.
Warwick Fairfax:
I wonder, just faced with Gary's example, if you've got something that's both exciting but maybe draining, maybe you ask yourself, is this net demand or net supply, what's the net effect? It doesn't mean that you say no, but at least if it's on balance, I really like this, I feel very motivated, but it's going to be huge amount of work. And so okay, it doesn't mean you say no, but you pay attention to the consequences. Does that make sense? Is it a net demand or supply this exciting new thing that you really want to do?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Yes. And that's in part why in the various worksheets, then you also get to the one that looks at your context because there will be times when it's a overall net positive, and there may be other times in your life where these days it's more a net negative. So it depends on the context. And I love what you were commenting on as well, that a lot of what we're doing with this, which is actually again, very aligned with when we're being strategic in a business context. It's not like being strategic and using the tools we use to help our thinking. It's not like we haven't thought of any of these things before.
They were part of the overall, yeah, yeah, they were on our radar. But what it does is it helps us avoid blind spots. It collects the information in a way that we can actually tolerate it together and then get us a decision. It increases how deliberate we are about where we're going. That's in part being strategic. That's the idea. So same here, but that's a bit of where you were going, I think, with your observation that, well, you may still decide to do that volunteer board or that committee over here that you're not chairing, but you're part of... But instead of just doing it because it looks fine, you've paused now and said, ah, yeah, okay. How long is the term for this thing? You just thought about it a bit longer, maybe you're still going to say yes. You've just said yes now with more visibility on your overall situation.
Warwick Fairfax:
Since I'm just one person, if travel comes up or something happens and I want to say, get off the ramp, that's okay. The world won't end. It's a volunteer committee. One of the other things I love and hear is you talk about assumptions and the role, and you have a very funny example where I think you were at an airport and it said, when daddy travels, it's like, hey, I travel, what about mommy travels? And you end coming back, and it turns out it was there, but they were sold out. It was on the other side of the bookshelf. So just talk about, it's a funny story, but talk about the role of assumptions and why that's important in your model.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
It's important in so many ways. It's important in the healthy work culture, in psychological health and safety, in good couple relationships. I mean, watching our assumptions in general is probably a good direction to consider. And so bringing this up here in this context that, again, it's in the context of realizing which, perhaps assumptions you're making, and stepping back to reflect on, okay, what is actually realistically going on? Maybe asking questions, maybe learning more information, but not just judging too fast without checking the actual situation.
And so for some individuals, it leads to their strategic resilience plan involving a pillar that is about better estimating time. A lot of the time, people, for example, will underestimate how long it takes take to do anything, which makes them a few minutes late to everywhere they go, and they're stressed out all the way there most of the time. And so sometimes they realize, okay, wait a second, I value family, yet because of my tendency to think I can do seven things in the three minutes between now and the moment we're leaving, that means I'm going to try to get them done and maybe one more just in case. And then you're stressed out driving there or you're late, which does not align with the rest of your value. So sometimes checking these assumptions that you're operating with, making them more realistic can be the next step you need to take.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. And then there might be other people that maybe they're just being in one job their whole lives and they're so cautious that they underrate their own abilities and fear is a great motivator, unfortunately, and tends to immobilize you. It's like, well, I can't do that. So you've got people at either spectrum or as you say, depending on the context, you can be both ends of the spectrum depending on what's happening in your life. And so both aren't helpful is to be overly optimistic, overly pessimistic. You ought to be realistic somewhere in the middle. Now, you talked about this before, there are values and pillars that looks like they're a bit different, but talk about why values is important in the context of your strategic resilience plan, because it seems like it's pretty fundamental.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Fundamental, yes. And again, similarly to how our values in a business context will be fundamental. The business can potentially do many things, but they will choose to do only certain things, and that's in part connected with their values and their vision, their mission, all of that. And so similarly here, your plan right now is going to be different from your plan in six months from now and different from mine today and six months from now as well. And that's in part our context. It's also in part our values. So just like in any strategy, there's an important aspect of choosing what not to do. So same thing here. As much as we would like to do everything, not possible, so where do we put priorities? We're going to choose some elements, some parts of this situation over others, and connecting that with our values is what's going to make the plan align with who you are. We also have research showing that these choices will also lead to more happiness and better mental health of course, but that's how you make your plan customized specific to you.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it makes so much sense rather than doing what you think you should do or what success looks like in a business sense, what does success in more of a eternal, lifelong, spiritual, whatever your sets of values are more than just success by one definition. I think in my own life, my kids are all adults now, but there was a time when they were younger and it was a high value of mine to be around and go to their sports games. And I have two boys and a girl, and my boys got more of my wife's jeans, it's more athletic. But I always jokingly say to my people, choose your jeans carefully, but what are you going to do? But anyway, so my boys say, dad, you are always there at our game. So we at birthdays just go around the table and say, what do you most admire about that person?
It's just something we've always done. So when it's my birthday or Father's Day, they say that a fair amount, which is obviously very gratifying, but they're out of the nest now. So context has changed. And so missing their sports game is not the current context. So if I wanted to, I could travel more or do other things. So for me, family was a very important value to me, and being around my kids' activity was very important. That's obviously my choice, but it came from my value set. And so that limited some choices, I suppose. But I was okay with that. I wasn't willing to be some management consultant, which I probably have the skills to do if I'd wanted to and be traveling every week of the year. That's not a judgment, it's just, as the example makes sense, I just wanted my life to be in line with my values.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
That's it. That is the idea. Yes. And what's beautiful also with this is that we're seeing emerging research on, because we've heard of course the research about that importance of meaning and purpose and belonging and all this, and a concept that's emerging a bit more also is mattering. And mattering is also alignment with our own values. When we are a parent of a younger child, mattering involves in part just saying, I value you no matter what you do, kind of thing. And that even that presence at those games sends that message, right? Whether you win, you lose, I'm showing up, I'm there, you're important. That's it. So you matter in effect. But as we get older, sometimes we need to feed that sense ourselves. And part of how we feed that sense of mattering is having clarity on our values and bringing these values in our life. So in this particular context of creating a strategic resilience plan, then yes, if we align this with our values, it all connects in beautiful ways.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it's so fascinating what you're saying, Marie-Helene, is if you're working for a company whose values are out of line with yours, forget whether they're good or bad. Let's assume it depends on your perspective, whether they're good or bad, but it's out of alignment with you. It will obviously be very draining on you because every day you feel like you're having to make decisions that's completely out of line with who you are as a person. So if you are thinking about how can I be more resilient? Well, maybe be in a context where it's more in line with your values. I mean, you should want to do that anyway over and above resilience. But I feel like young people more and more want to be in context that line up with their values and they're not willing to stay somewhere that they don't enjoy. They're just, well, sorry, I'm leaving, because 30, 50 years ago it's like you were there for a life. It's different now. So you find that's a different context that we're in now.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
It is an overall different context. Depending on some countries will have children in school talk way more about mental health than older people have received in their own education. Different countries talk about it more than others as well. But overall, because we're all more connected, everyone's hearing more about it. Now, the other piece too about yes, the tolerance for this not the right fit for me is very different than the overall mentality of say, 20, 30, 40 years ago. Yes. The other piece too, to keep in mind, as because there will also most of the time not be 100% alignment. This is a workplace, I'm one of the individuals in it and we're many individuals, so there's an element of some of that will be normal, but for each of us, yeah, where is that line where the alignment just does not seem to connect the way it should?
And there's also very far on the same continuum, you get to a point where you're into moral injury, where the difference between your own values and what needs to happen here is so significant that it creates clashes. And that is not just something that is unpleasant or challenging, it gets to your mental health. And so it's important because sometimes people think that, well, if you really want to, if whatever the pay is such that I want to stay or whatever, I can just put my head down and stay. No, there is a cost to this at some point. And so you want to, again, in considering the overall context, you want to keep this in mind too.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It can really erode your resilience. So talk about pillars, because that was another interesting element. You've got some examples like boundaries, self-care, recovery, mindfulness. Talk about why pillars are important and why figuring out your two or three key strategic pillars is critical.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Well, truly, I'm using the same tools we would use in a business. We're going to launch this new product. We want it to be successful. We've looked at the context and we realized that maybe just one other companies offering this, but not many, whatever, we may choose that one of our pillars is to own the market from a marketing perspective and be very visible, for example. Another pillar, there'll be two or three pillars, usually more than five, so that we know where we're going, we know what the tactics are in the business context, that's the actions, and we're delivering. So it provides a direction, a clarity on the structure, and we're moving. Okay. And because it's all based on the current context, it's doable. It's not impossible or anything like this. So the same here works for us. If we've gone through our values and for example, realize we value family and we have, I don't know, a number of them. Let's say 10, 12, whatever.
We've gone through the exercise of supply and demand. We've gone through the context. We may realize that we actually need a pillar here that's going to be called family relationships because it's important for us. We know this, you've been at your kids' games and all, but I'm pairing your brain with mine right now for the example. But maybe a pillar is going to be family and maybe the actions will be, I'm going back to having at least one Zoom call a week with this person. I'm going back to, if I'm working from home and someone from the family comes in my office to say something, I'm not turning with my hands on the keyboard here. I'm standing up and walking outside to be fully there for them. That's an example. And we may have two or three other pillars, but they will be personal to each of us in this context.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean that's extremely helpful, whatever that is. It could be boundaries or yeah, it's just making sure that you design your life around the context you're in, the values you have, what you want to achieve in life. I mean, it's just really being mindful in the full sense of that word, of what it is you want. And so I guess these are all elements of having a strategic resilient plan so that you don't do something crazy. And I think as we were saying earlier, the time to think about this is before the hurricane hits. Then it's like a little late just when things are fairly calm. One of the other things I'm curious about is we talk a lot on our podcast and the work we do about what we call a team of fellow travelers, people that come alongside you because no person should be an island. So where do other people come in terms of your strategic resilience plan? People that you obviously invite in, you get to decide the who and the why that you would invite them. How does that work, other people?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Yes. Well, it will depend on each person's context. Let's say right now you are very surrounded. You've got your own executive coach, you've got your own peer network. You talk to Gary on a regular basis, this is there. So if you're creating a strategic plan to get your resilience to the next level, it doesn't need to be there. It's already part of your life. It's in, you're good, you're going to focus on other things. But if it's not there, it will probably become a pillar to say, oh my God, I've been focusing on, I don't know, other projects and I've let go of investing in relationships even though each of our plans will be different based on our values and all this. As I discussed in the book, the reality is we do have research that indicates the kinds of things that will, we know from research, increase our resilience. Relationships is one of them. And so if it is not part of what's around you, I would say consider in your pillars, maybe there is one of those pillars that will allow you, force you in a healthy way to bring this back.
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's say you have some successful executive who tends to be overly optimistic about how much you can put on your plate and underrate how much you need a break, a vacation, which would be normal. Having somebody come alongside you that's, let's say known you for 10, 20 years, whatever, friend, a colleague. And when you say, yep, I can handle that, that's no problem. Somebody that can say, well, we've known each other for 20 years, and you ask them, do you think I can do this? You might, but it'll be a higher cost.
And if you had two or three people that you trust and they've known you for years, they all say, Hey, Warwick, Gary, Marie-Helene. I mean, it's your choice, but I don't know. None of us really see this as a smart move in terms of your values and you are significantly overestimating how much you can do. People talk about three-sixties a lot, and a lot of people ignore the data, but my attitude is if two or three people around me who I trust or say something that could be wrong, but the data would say probably not, and they're not telling me what to do, they're just saying, you say you can do all of this. That's not the person that I think you're underestimating how much of a challenge is going to be. Does that make sense?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
It does. It does. I think in general, we tend to just try to confirm what we already believe when someone says anything. So if it's aligned with what we're thinking, we take it. If it's not, we say, well, not valid, not listening to that. But the reality is in being more realistic about our context, and most people, most leaders and professionals, you get to a point in your career where you realize this is something to listen for. You get to a point where you're like, you know what? You may not like it, but if you listen, it's better. And I think it's in part experience is in part having not listened so many times and every single time realizing yourself later that these people were right. At some point you're like, okay, it's a blind spot. I don't tend to listen, and because I've learned it, I will listen now. And it could be a pillar, listening more to other people's opinions. So depending on where you are, maybe you're next pillar. Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
So as we sort of begin to sum up here, there's probably some people are pretty skeptical of the whole strategic resilience plan. Sounds like an idea, but I don't really have time and I'm just resilient and all that. But when do you feel like the light bulb goes off and they go, you know what? This thing really works and it makes sense, what kind of switches them from maybe good in theory, but I don't really have time to figure out a resilience plan because I just intuitively, I'll figure it out, because a smart and capable and highly evolved, highly evolved individual.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
I know. And you are, of course you are.
Warwick Fairfax:
Everybody thinks they're highly evolved.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
So I would say, I mean again, we'll be responsive to some things more at times than others, and that's okay. If it's not for you right now, it's fine. I would say maybe have a look at the book chapter one because that's where I'm pulling the big guns. That's where I'm saying, you're telling yourself this. Here's why you're wrong. I'm saying it more gently, but that's sort of the essence really, so that we can get to your blind spots as fast as possible. The exercises are between five and 10 minutes each, so I know you don't have time. So if you're taking, I'm going to say a four-hour flight, you can get through this, and so it's doable, but if it's not for you right now, it's not for you right now. The reality is that it's backed up by research and that's what businesses do.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, and to our world, we commissioned some research with a few thousand people that showed that about 72% of people had a crisis in their lives so painful that it fundamentally transformed their life. And the researchers that did this, and I'm not a social science researcher, but they are, the 28% said no. In all probability, they weren't actually being honest with themselves, just looking at the data and the underlying answers. So the point is, you might feel like I'm not going to hit a wall. I'm not going to have a crucible. I'm good. Well, in all likelihood, if you haven't had one, you probably will have one. And so you need to have a strategic resilience plan for when that unimaginable crisis happens, because it will happen. Life is not easy. It could be external, it could be family, it could be business, it could be health, it could be all sorts of things. So it's unrealistic to think life is not Disney World. I mean, bad things will happen.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
Well, and even if it's challenges that are no bigger than any of the challenges you've had in the past six months, having a plan will just allow you to go through them in an even easier, more joyful way. Seriously.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And I'm sure as you talk to the folks that you deal with, you have a plan for investment, for sales, for costs, for acquisition. You have a plan and a strategy for everything. Why wouldn't you have a plan and a strategy for your own resilience? Because that will help you get to the next level in every area of your life. Wouldn't you want to do that? Why wouldn't you want to plan in this area? You wouldn't buy a company and say, yeah, I just have this gut instinct, but I won't do any research. I feel like it's a good idea. I mean, your board would throw you out in a nanosecond if you came in there with that recommendation. I just feel like it's good, but I've got no data to back up my opinion. I mean, so not having a strategic resilience plan makes no sense, but you've got to plan for every other area of your life, right?
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
That's right. Something to think about.
Gary Schneeberger:
I heard the sound, Warwick, I heard the sound. It was the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign indicating we've begun our descent to land the plane on this conversation. But you said something as the captain about, we're getting close to turning the corner here. So the captain's lined up here for this. So I will give you the opportunity to ask MH the last question here, and then we'll be on the ground.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I don't know that I have a last question other than just to thank you so much for being here, and it's just an honor to have you. I love your work and strategic resilience, and I hope people will pay more attention to what you're doing, because it would save people a lot of heartache, and there can be challenges you can't avoid, but there can be challenges you can avoid or at least minimize the consequences of. And maybe you can turn somewhat of a significant challenge into a smaller challenge with better resilience strategies.
Marie-Helene Pelletier:
That's right. And in the context where more will come, who doesn't want that, really? And yes, it can actually allow you to bring your even better self to both your professional and your personal life.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that folks, gets the plane on the ground for another episode of Beyond the Crucible, a really interesting one that hopefully you heard that resilience is not something that you're born with, it's something you can build and it can crucible proof your life in some ways, or at least make crucibles easier to get through. And that's what we're all about here. So if you enjoyed this conversation, we encourage you on whatever podcast app you're listening to, or if you're on YouTube, click subscribe to the channel that you're on and you can hear these kinds of conversations every week. And until the next time we're together, remember, you understand crucible experiences are hard, but we also know they're not the end of your story. If you learn the lessons from them and you apply them to your course moving forward, that path moving forward can lead to the most rewarding destination of your life. And that destination is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit BeyondtheCrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.