We kick off our eight-part summer series — BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES — this week with a look at the remarkable life of Louie Zamperini, whose true story of overcoming several devastating crucibles is told in the film UNBROKEN.
The movie depicts him as an Olympic athlete, an air force bombardier adrift in a life boat for 47 days during World War II and a prisoner of war brutalized by his captors in Japanese prisoner of war camps.
How does he survive? By living out the advice his brother game him when they were both boys: if you can take it, you can make it.
Dive deeper into your personal narratives with our BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES guided journal, meticulously crafted to enhance your experience with our podcast series exploring cinema’s most transformative crucible stories. This journal serves as a dedicated space for introspection, inviting you to connect the profound journeys of on-screen characters with the pivotal moments that have shaped your own life.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Louie was free during those times of being in a prisoner-of-war camp. During that time in the Raft, he did not let his circumstances define him that may have imprisoned his body, but his soul could never be chained.
Gary Schneeberger:
We kick off our eight-part summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles, this week with a look at the Louie that Warwick just mentioned, Louie Zamperini. The movie that documents his incredible story of resilience and courage is Unbroken. In it, we see him as an Olympic athlete, an Air Force bombardier adrift in a lifeboat 47 days during World War II and a prisoner of war brutalized by his captors in Japanese POW camps. How does he survive? By living out the advice he first received from his brother when they both were boys, "If you can take it, you can make it."
Well, folks, we are back doing something that we love. This is the first episode of our eight-part summer series, which we're calling Big Screen, Big Crucibles. If that sounds familiar, it's because this is the third time Warwick and I have talked about movies as a jumping-off point to discuss the crucibles that we all face. So for the next eight weeks, we'll be taking a look at films that feature a wide variety of crucibles, insightful lessons that they can teach us about not only bouncing back from those crucibles, but on casting a vision for a life of significance.
And our first film, we're both excited about. You should have been there. We should film sometimes the prep sessions, Warwick, because they're very... I mean, there's a lot of stuff that goes on in there when we prepare for this. And Unbroken, if the episode is half as interesting as the prep session was, it's going to be really, really, really good. The movie came out in 2014, and what I'll do with every episode that we do of this series is I'll just read What in Hollywood is called the logline. That's a short synopsis of the movie. So here's the short synopsis folks of Unbroken.
As a boy, Louis "Louie" Zamperini is always in trouble. But with the help of his older brother, he turns his life around and channels his energy into running, later qualifying for the 1936 Olympics. When World War II breaks out, Louie enlists in the military. After his plane crashes in the Pacific, he survives an incredible 47 days adrift in a raft until he's captured the Japanese Navy. Sent to a POW camp, Louie becomes the favorite target of a particularly cruel prison commander. He ensures the unimaginable and yet, finds it in his spirit to, years later, forgive his tormentor. He goes on to become a Christian and start a ministry helping people through life's most challenging circumstances.
Wow, Warwick. That sounds like a good choice for the first episode of our series, so let me ask you this question before we dive into these crucibles of Louis, and how he overcame them, and what his actions can teach us about our own crucibles. Why movies? Again, this is the third time we've gone into the cinema for our summer series. What are you hoping our listeners and viewers get from our discussions here?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Gary, we both love movies, and we've enjoyed looking at movies over the last couple years or so of Beyond the Crucible. And movies typically portray a protagonist who's facing immense and significant challenges which they seek to overcome. So we've covered movie heroes, sports heroes, historical heroes, and last year, we had a really fun time looking at movies from the American Film Institute's top 100 movies. Really, truly great movies that we covered.
This year, we thought we'd look at movies that were focused on crucibles, where we had people who overcame significant crucibles to bounce back and lead a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So we've had a lot of great movies that we've looked at this year. It was purely from the lens of what do we think are some of the greatest movies that show immense crucibles that people found a way to overcome.
Gary Schneeberger:
And what's interesting about this, folks, is we're doing eight movies in all, and in a previous life... This is just an interesting factoid, and it may come out in some of the discussions. In a previous life, I was a publicist in Hollywood for films, and three of the eight movies, including this one, I worked on when I was publicizing films in Hollywood. So I may have some inside information, if you will, about some of the things that... certainly, from Unbroken, but from some of the other movies that we're going to cover as well.
Warwick Fairfax:
And just to show you folks that Gary is really... and together, we're trying to pick some of the best crucible movies. Originally, in the list we were chatting about, that wasn't on Gary's list, Unbroken. As soon as I mentioned it, it's like, "Oh, wait, hang on. I worked on that movie. Of course, we should have it."
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
So it's not like Gary is deliberately trying to put every movie that he has worked on. It just so happens.
Gary Schneeberger:
Thank you for that disclaimer. That is true, and it also shows that I... It's funny. In watching the movie... I'll say this before we begin the discussion about what we saw in the movie. In watching the movie, there were scenes I forgot. I mean, I saw this movie like eight times before it came out and in various stages of being done, and I forgot some key scenes in there. So it was, really, eye-opening for me as well, even though I was involved in this in 2014 when it came out.
So, Warwick, let's go at this, and it's going to... not be long, I don't think, but let's go at this in the order of Louie's crucibles because I think that's the best way to understand what he went through and his sheer will to survive. While in the Pacific, on a rescue mission, the plane he and his fellow airmen are on crashes. After the crash, Louie and his two fellow airmen are adrift on a tiny raft in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. No food, no water, burning sun, and oh, if that's not enough, shark-infested waters. They end up stranded for 47 days. That's over six weeks. An ordeal few of us can even imagine.
The film shows their desperate creativity, catching rainwater and makeshift containers, snaring a fish or a bird with their bare hands, fending off sharks. At one point, a Japanese plane... Remember, this is in World War II, so the US is fighting Japan. A Japanese plane comes by and strafes them while they're in... They have to dive into the... out of the life raft and dive into the ocean where those sharks are. But through it all, Louie Zamperini refuses to give up hope.
Warwick, this segment here about them being adrift at sea is about surviving long periods of hardship and deprivation. Think of that raft as a metaphor for any extended trial in life, any crucible someone has been through. Let's unpack how Louie survived the unsurvivable. So I'll let you lay out some of this stuff. And again, folks, there's a lot of stuff here because it's truly a remarkable story.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So well said, Gary. One of the things I just thought of, even before Louie really takes charge and comes up with a plan, what's interesting is he accepts the situation that he's in, because when you watch the movie, what's interesting is that Louie and his crew in this US bomber in the Pacific Theater that just come back from this harrowing bombing mission, they get strafed, and I think at least one person dies on the plane, and its-
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
... it's dire circumstances. Somehow they get back to this airfield on this little island somewhere in the Pacific. They make it back, and then they're told, "Hey, there's somebody out in the Pacific who needs rescuing. So we've got this other aircraft because your one is too beaten up. Why don't you take this other aircraft?" And obviously, in World War II, there are a lot of beat-up aircraft, and sometimes you take a part from here, a part from there, and patch it up, and hope for the best.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so what's crazy is this plane crashes, but it's not because of enemy fire. I don't think that one bullet hits them.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, they're just cruising along. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's because it's put together with, feeling like, chewing gum and Band-Aids. I mean, metaphorically speaking, because look, they're doing the best they can. It's pretty tough. So this thing loses engine after engine, and so Louie could say, "Are you kidding me? God or whoever's up there, I survived one mission when we're shot up, and now we're crashing, and the enemy is not even attacking us. What's up with this? This is not fair. Come on." You know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Cut the mechanics. Put a plane together properly. I mean, he could have been unreasonable and go off on that, but you never see that. So, anyway. So the first point to make about Louie in this is he's not complaining about the situation and saying, "You kidding me? Who crashes because a plane is not even shot down?" But from the beginning, Louie takes charge, he encourages his buddies, he comes up with a plant to survive. So he says, basically, "Okay. We've got a couple of chocolate bars and ration. We're going to have to ration them to two squares of chocolate a day per person. We've got these seemingly minute little cans of water with a little screw top on. Okay. Let's say two, maybe three sips of water per day per person."
And they seem to agree to this, but out of the two people on that raft, Mac, and there's another guy, Phil, who's one of the pilots, Mac doesn't really seem to be with the program. Louie is saying, "Okay. You good, right? We've got a ration." And Mac is not nodding his head. He's just looking at him. So, later on, we find a bit later that Mac has eaten all the chocolate bars. This isn't day 46-
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, and this is only a couple of days.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. I was going to say. This isn't day 46. This is like day one or two.
Gary Schneeberger:
Exactly.
Warwick Fairfax:
You know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it's like... Obviously, Louie is absolutely furious and livid because who knows how long they're going to be out there, but he handles this challenge well, finds a way to move on, and by definition, must have forgiven Mac because you don't see him retaliate against Mac at all for the rest of the 47 days. He is not saying, "Well, the reason we're starving is because of you." Not once in the movie does it come up. He's moved on. "Okay, that was yesterday. If we're going to deal with today, we can't be worried about yesterday." So, so many lessons in terms of how Louie finds a way to just survive, but just galvanize these two other people on that raft.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's the first real glimpse that we have into the character. Speaking of a word that we've talked about as part of our series within the show on the actionable truths of Beyond the Crucible, he shows himself to be a man of character in that moment, and we don't really know anything about him except that. But right after that scene happens, we learn a little bit more about him. There's a reason that Louie is able to be resilient. There's a reason that he's able to look the other way when someone does something wrong. He's learned some things in his life, and we get to get a glimpse of that because the movie tells some things in flashback. Right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting what happens as the plane is crashing in this crash. We go into a flashback, and Louie is a young kid. He's in church, and there's a pastor talking about the fact that God created day and night, and we have to live through the night. In other words, we have to... "There will be good times and bad times," I think is the metaphor he's trying to get at, and we have to find a way to live through the bad times through the challenges. And the past also says that God sent his son Jesus to forgive our sins, and so there's also an, obviously, implicit message that we need to learn forgiveness too. So some powerful lessons. Learn to deal with the challenges, learn to deal with the night, and learn to deal with forgiveness.
Gary Schneeberger:
And Louie at that time, he's a boy. He's a young boy.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
Maybe preteen-ish.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he's not, by any stretch of the imagination, a Christian kid. He's fidgeting in church. His dad is looking at him crossly.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
I mean, this isn't something that Louie is hearing that, really, is soaking into his soul per se. He's just hearing it. It doesn't go in one ear and out the other, but I don't know that it gets stuck in his heart, but he does remember it as time goes on.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, yeah. No. It's seeds that will come to life later on. But yes, it's not really changing his life too much at the moment. But we also see from the very beginning that he has challenges. He is from an Italian-American family. His parents, certainly his mother doesn't seem to speak much of any English. And Louie is bullied by the other kids because he's Italian. They call him names, and it's very sad. Often, with immigrant groups, depending on the era, whether it's US or other countries, some are accepted readily and some are not. And certainly, in terms of the Americans back then, we're talking probably early '30s, I would guess. Maybe late '20s. I don't really know exactly what year it is, but that was the case.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so one of the things we see is clearly, his mother has a very strong faith because you see her in the house praying for Louie, because Louie does tend to act up and gets bullied, and so certainly, Louie needed to find a way to get beyond bullying and not let that define him. And we'll see later that there is no evidence of that holding him back, but yeah, he had challenges from a very early age.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and really, a key figure in his life that helps him move past those challenges, confront those challenges, not be... Well, the movie is called Unbroken, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Gary Schneeberger:
Not be Broken by those challenges is his brother Pete, and Pete is his older brother. Pete is a good older brother. He encourages Louie to try out for the track team at school. Louie is not sure. He doesn't think that track team is going to accept people like him, "people like him," Italians, but his brother says a very important thing that I know you're going to talk more about. I'm just going to toss it out here.
His brother tells him, "If you can take it, you can make it," about being on the track team. Lots of other applications to that. And he begins to train his brother riding his bike while Louie is running. And Louie says he feels he is nothing but his brother believes in him, right? That all important person that believes that regardless of what other people say about us that may be negative, his brother is on Team Louie.
And we also see in another flashback, Warwick, Louie in the 1936 Berlin Olympics. Folks, you may remember these Olympics as the Jesse Owens Olympics. He was the African-American who won, I think, four different events there. Very historically significant. And Louie, he finishes eight in the 5,000-meter race, but his performance was notable for a very interesting point. The final lap of that race, he fell behind, and he sped up. He could take it, so he made it, right? He finishes that race, and he finishes that last lap in only 56 seconds, which was a record, right? It was a record in the US at that time, the last lap of that race. That's all pretty remarkable stuff, Warwick. Talk about how some of these impacts your understanding of Louie Zamperini and your understanding of how Louie is a model for us in overcoming Crucibles.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. What's interesting about Louie being in the 1936 Berlin Olympics is he was still in high school at the time.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And for him to even be in the running, so to speak, to do somewhat well is remarkable. For him to have one of the fastest final lapse against grown men when he's a teenager is remarkable. And we really see this journey from him talking to his older brother, Pete, saying, "Hey, they don't want people like me on the track team. The other kids won't accept me." And Pete really just encourages him to say, as you rightly say, "If you can take it, you can make it." That will almost be a life motto for him in which he uses it throughout his life. And certainly, at an early age when he's in high school, he tried out for the team, and he did phenomenally well. He was at Torrance High School in California, and they used to call him the Torrance Tornado. You know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Okay.
Warwick Fairfax:
He was that quick. Who is this kid? So that was incredible. And to do as well as he did in the Olympics in Berlin in 1936 is incredible. And right after that or at least around that time, his brother, Pete, again, such a great mentor. Not all older brothers are great mentors, but Pete really is. He says to Louie, "A moment of pain is worth a lifetime of glory." Really, pain is something that you can fuel to really make yourself better. So he's been mentored, he's gone through some tough challenges, being bullied, showing that he can be incredibly fast on the track, his brother coaching him, helping him to get to the next level. He is really modeling resilience, and a lot of this is, really, tools that he's building that is going to help him when he desperately needs it later on in life, both in the raft and then later on in World War II. So these incredibly important life lessons that Louie Zamperini is learning.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and Pete Zamperini. Come on. Pete Zamperini was a Beyond the Crucible visionary before Beyond the Crucible existed, right? I mean, "If you can take it, you can make it." That's straight out of the advice that you give and, "One moment of pain is worth a lifetime of glory." Again, right out of the things that we do. I, actually, when I worked on this movie, met Louie's son, Luke Zamperini. I'll have to reach out to Luke and tell him some of this stuff that... "Hey, there's this podcast that your dad would've loved."
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, and one of the things we talk about all the time on Beyond the Crucible is the importance of fellow travelers.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
It'd be interesting to ask yourself, "What would Louie Zamperini be like if he didn't have a Pete, he didn't have an older brother?" I don't know that he ever would've raced. He would've said, "They don't like people like me. They won't let people like me on the team." He would never have been in the Olympics. The whole idea of "If you can take it, you can make it." I mean, who knows what his life would've been like, but Pete was a huge part of why Louie Zamperini became the man he became. So a lot of credit goes to Pete. Certainly.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So let's go back to the raft. Louie and his two fellow servicemen drift day after day under the brutal sun, as we said. At one point, Mac, the companion who just couldn't control himself and ate all the chocolate bars, he passes away, and they give him a very sweet burial at sea. And in those 47 days, in addition to seeing his friend die, Louie faces starvation, thirst, fear, all the things that you can imagine. And the movie does a really good job of showing just how that affects him and how he fights against it.
If we translate what Louie went through, Warwick, into everyday crucibles, like a long illness, for instance, or unemployment, or any prolonged struggle, what practical strategies can people draw from Louie's experience? Right? That's what we're about here, right? These movies, we talk about them because you can learn things about overcoming your crucibles from what we see in these movies. For example, what mindset or routine might help someone get through for one more day of a personal ordeal?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I think Louie Zamperini teaches us two huge things. You have to have hope, and you have to have a plan. Each day, Louie had hope despite the fact that as far as they knew, the record for surviving on a raft was 21 days. This would end up being 47. Can you imagine that day 24, 29, 35? It's like... How can you have hope at that point? I think most people, many would certainly say, "There is no hope. We're beyond 21. We're going to die. It's just a question of, is it going to be today or tomorrow? It won't be two days from now. It'll be today or tomorrow."
You could have that mindset, but that wasn't Louie Zamperini. Not only did he maintain hope, he had a plan. It was very creative, as I mentioned, at the very beginning, "Hey, let's just have two squares of chocolate a day, two sips of water." Obviously, that plan didn't work out when the other guy, Mac, ate the whole chocolate once, but you've got to readjust your plans, but he had a plan, and then they had to get pretty creative in terms of how to eat and drink. They, as you said, captured rainwater with sacks and their water bottles. They caught a seagull, which, I suppose, they can try.
Gary Schneeberger:
Which was not tasty. Seagull was not tasty.
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's just say what they ate didn't stay there, you know?
Gary Schneeberger:
There you go. There you go.
Warwick Fairfax:
So they ate fish. They even ate a shark. They managed to corral the shark, and it was pretty impressive. And obviously, they're not used to eating raw fish, certainly raw shark, but they found a way. They never gave up hope. And one of the other interesting things is that the other airman on the raft or one of the others was a pilot named Phil. Now, he was a person of very strong faith, and there's some interesting moments, almost humorous. And so as you do when you're facing a mortality and thinking, "We may not survive." I mean, whether you say it or not, you're just wondering. You know it's a possibility at this point. So Louie asked Phil if God has a grand plan. That's a very big cosmic question to ask, "What's God's grand plan?"
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, he's not really a person of faith, but he's also-
Gary Schneeberger:
Especially in the midst of war, right? I mean, that's an-
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's an incredibly big question in the midst of war.
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed. So Phil says, "You do the best you can and have fun. And when you die, the angel says, 'You can ask all the dumb questions now.'" Not something that I have typically heard in church, you know?
Gary Schneeberger:
No, no.
Warwick Fairfax:
"When you die, now is the time to ask all those dumb questions." I don't know how good the theology was, but it's pretty humorous, I got to say. So then, Louie makes this almost pact with God, and he says to God that if God rescues him, he'll give his whole life to God and will do anything he wants. And so we'll find out life and faith wasn't exactly very linear for Louie Zamperini, but at least that's somewhat of an indication that Louie is at least trying to make a turn. He's trying to have faith and God be a bit more important in his life. But yeah, I guess in summary, you got to have hope, you got to have a plan, and Louie is not quite there yet, but having some kind of faith that fuels the hope is certainly helpful.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, for sure, as we talk about here all the time. So surviving by day, day by day, and holding onto hope, Louis showed us that even in a tiny raft in a big ocean, the human spirit can endure more than we think. Huge message of this movie, but surviving the ocean was just the beginning, if you can believe it, folks. That's not even the halfway point of the movie, really, Surviving the ocean.
After those 47 days, Louie's crucible only deepened. He was rescued by the enemy, which, news flash, isn't really being rescued. I mean, it's being rescued from your immediate peril, floating amongst sharks in the ocean, but you're rescued by the enemy, and they're a vicious enemy. After those 47 days, he's faced now with a very different kind of trial. Louie survives the unspeakable at sea, only to land in an even harsher set of circumstances, two years in Japanese prison camps.
In Unbroken, we see how Louie and other POWs survive beatings, starvation, and humiliation daily. One guard in particular, Mutsuhiro Watanabe, nicknamed The Bird by the prisoners, singles out Louie. He cannot stand that Louie is an Olympic athlete and a war hero, and he doesn't like the fact that try as he might, he can't break Louie's spirit. Warwick, Louie's treatment in the POW camp was beyond horrific. Watanabe tried everything to crush him. What struck you about Louie's mental and emotional strength during this avalanche of mistreatment that he experienced?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. From the moment that Louie is captured, he's first taken to some remote island, he's put in this hole, he's beaten, tortured. There's just glimmers of light coming out. At one point, he's taken out and beaten by the soldiers and interrogated. At one point, he and this other airman, Phil, they look like they're being brought out to be executed. They're forced to kneel and then undress naked. And Louie, at first, resists to kneeling, and they beat him down till he kneels, and they're assuming this is going to be it. But then, it turns out it's not it, and they're taken to Tokyo in Japan on a ship. So here they are traveling in a truck through Tokyo. At this point, I think they're separated, Louie and Phil.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And the truck that Louie is in is going through Tokyo, and Louie says that he had hoped to race in the 1940 Olympics in Tokyo because that's when that was slated. And one of the challenges, if not tragedies, is Louie never gets to race in another Olympics because the 1940 and 1944 Olympics were canceled because of World War II. So he's having this wistful moment. He's like, "Huh, this is Tokyo. I was hoping to race here in 1940, and it didn't happen."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And he might've had a much better shot being four years older. So now he's in this prisoner-of-war camp, and as you mentioned, the guy seemingly in charge, at least over this group was Corporal Watanabe. Watanabe says to the prisoners that they're enemies of Japan and they will be treated accordingly. Those are very ominous words, "You will be treated accordingly."
Now, we learn that Watanabe grew up in a wealthy family and wanted to be an officer, but he didn't make it. I think one of the senior prisoners of war spoke some Japanese, and so he was able to figure out some of this from the guards and chatter. And so clearly, it seemed like Watanabe had a chip on his shoulder, and he was going to take out this chip that he had of feeling like he's not achieving maybe what his family expected of him, that he was going to take it out on the prisoners and especially Louie Zamperini.
At one point, Louie says he's going to kill Watanabe. He's had it, and the senior US officer at the camp says, "The way you win is by surviving the war." And at that point, Louie recalls the words of his brother, "If he can take it, he can make it." And so he was going to have to take a lot of brutality and beatings from Watanabe, and he did take it.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's interesting, Warwick. When they first meet, when Watanabe first confronts Louie in the camp, he gets right in his face, and he tells him, "Look at me." Right? He tells him, he commands him to look at him, and Louie won't do it, can't do it, doesn't want to do it. And that exchange will play out as this movie carries on, this idea that Watanabe wants to break him down by having him stare into his eyes and force his will on him through eye contact and through intimidation. That will play out, folks. Put a pin in this one. We'll come back to it in a few minutes because you'll see how that all plays out, but that was a... to your point, shows how he singled Louie out from the beginning.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So well said. And at one point, amidst all this torture and deprivation, Louie, obviously, is somewhat well-known being an Olympic athlete. He's taken to this Japanese radio station. It looks all very swank with a... very well-furnished place, beautiful architecture, and all. And he's being asked to tell the world that he's okay and that... just to give some words to his family, so he's willing to do that, "Hey, I'm okay," and express love to his brother and family.
And he's eating at a beautiful cafeteria. Some of the folks at the Japanese radio station, they come up to him, and they basically say, in not so many words, "We want you to lie on radio. Just spout forth what we want you to say." And there were some things like that. I think, from memory, there was a woman by the name of Tokyo Rose who would... I don't know if she was American, but certainly had an American accent, would really try to, through propaganda, just beat down the Americans and allies in the Pacific Theater in World War II, and there was a German equivalent in the European Theater. So they probably wanted him to be this kind of figure, an Olympic athlete spouting propaganda for Japan.
I mean, that's a great PR move if you are Japan in the midst of World War II. Well, obviously, Louie Zamperini wouldn't have any of it, even though he realized he would have good food and good conditions. So he went back to the prisoner-of-war camp, and Watanabe just continues. He wants to teach Louie respect, and so in one scene, he has each prisoner being forced to punch Louie in the face, and Louie just yells at him saying, "Do it. Do it," because they realize if they don't do it, then there will be... all the rest of the prisoners will be tortured and mistreated even more. So he's willing to take one for every prisoner in the camp.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, and that, right, brings back his brother's counsel, "If you can take it..." Right? He's willing to take one. You just said it. "If you can take it, you can make it." And he lives through that as each man walks up and socks him in the face.
Warwick Fairfax:
It almost sounds biblical, One man taking all this pain for the sake of others, ironically.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
I don't know that he was probably thinking that, but it does make you think that. So then, later on, we see that Louie is taken by train through snow-covered mountains to another camp. And just when you think like, "Hey, at least I've got out of this camp," lo and behold, we found Watanabe, who's been promoted from a corporal to a sergeant, is at that camp and seemingly in charge of them. And at this camp, what they're doing is this back-breaking work of lifting these heavy baskets full of coal onto these barges, one after another. I mean, they're just covered in soot and coal dust. I mean, it's torture of a different kind. It's back-breaking work of hauling coal into the barges.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and there is a pivotal scene that comes after this, Warwick. It's one of the most moving ones in the entire film, but one of the most inspiring ones in the entire film. So let's take a look at that scene and listen to that scene right now.
Audio:
If he drops it, shoot him.
[foreign langauge 00:37:03].
Louie.
Come on, boy.
Come on, Louie.
Don't look at me. Don't look at me. Myrna. Myrna. Myrna.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, Warwick, you've seen that scene more than once over the years. What's your reaction to it in the context of what we're talking about here for the podcast?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, this is such a powerful scene. There's been this battle, this war of wills between Watanabe and Louie Zamperini, and Watanabe is attempting to break Louie. As we see in that clip, he says, "You keep holding up that heavy beam, and if you drop it," he tells the soldiers, "shoot him." I mean, it's pretty clear he is hoping that Louie just can't take it, gives up, drops the beam, and that... I guess Watanabe is hoping the soldiers will actually do what he tells him to and shoot him. He wants to win. This is the final moment of victory. He feels like the victory is within his grasp. I mean, surely-
Gary Schneeberger:
Particularly, Warwick-
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
Particularly, that the war is slipping away from Japan too.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
So we've got to believe he's really thinking, "This is my chance to win something big out of this."
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, absolutely. Here's Louie Zamperini. He's been tortured and beaten, and he's just been worn down by just hauling these baskets of coal. He finally just drops it. He's exhausted, and then he had to go through this whole hold-up-the-beam episode. And what's remarkable is that Louie was strong and defiant, and he just wouldn't break. I think as you were hinting at earlier, he says, "Don't look at me."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, right.
Warwick Fairfax:
He can't-
Gary Schneeberger:
He totally flips what he wants from Louie because now the power has shifted in his mind and in viewers' minds.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And at that point, you see that Watanabe falls to his knees. He has been defeated. In this battle of will and resilience, Louie has triumphed. We see that not long after, it's announced that the war is over, and we see a US bomber flying overhead. Soon after, care packages dropped from the planes, the gas disappear, and what's interesting, we then see Louie goes to Watanabe's quarters. There are no guards around. Watanabe's fled, and we see in Watanabe's quarters there's a photo of Watanabe as a kid with his dad, and his dad looks like a military officer.
So it's just emblematic of, "Look at this famous father who's done well, and Watanabe really hasn't." And then towards the end of the movie, we see Louie gets off a plane. He's back in the US. He's back home. He hugs his parents. He hugs his brother. He survived. He survived the war. He survived everything that Watanabe threw at him. It's remarkable.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that scene with Watanabe of Louie seeing his picture, going up into Watanabe's office and seeing that picture, right before then, Louie goes home and sees his parents. I've always taken that, even when I worked on the film 11 years ago, I've always taken that as Louie absorbing the humanity of his tormentor. It was something about this little boy with his father there that Louie wasn't angry at looking at it. He wasn't relieved at looking at it. It shook him a little bit. I think it moved him a little bit. That's my read on it anyway when you look at him going in there. The war is over, his tormentor is gone, and he sees this tormentor as a young boy in this situation, and maybe he sees a little humanity in that moment. I think that's a pretty good read given what ends up happening to Louie Zamperini in his life after Japan.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, it's so well said. I think one of the things we say in Christianity and the church is you hate the sin, love the sinner. Easy to say, pretty difficult to do under these sorts of circumstances. We also say it's important to forgive. That doesn't mean condoning the behavior of people like Watanabe at all, but yeah, to see the humanity in him. Maybe that was part of the journey of forgiveness that we'd find that Louie was on. But yeah, even people who've done horrific things to you, you might think what they did is uncomfortable and horrific, but to see the humanity behind them doesn't mean you condone a thing, but I think it ultimately is helpful. You got to see people as human, even some of the people that we think are the worst in the world. It is helpful.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, right. So enduring injustice often means suffering without immediate retaliation or remedy. From Louie's experience, what advice would you give to someone in a situation where they have to "survive mistreatment?" What inner resources or support can they draw on like Louie drew on in his determination and loyalty to his fellow POWs to get through it, right? How can they lean into this idea of if you make it, you can take it?
Warwick Fairfax:
In hindsight, Louie was about as well-prepared as you can be for his torture, especially at the hands of Watanabe. His mission was to break him. That was like one of his chief aims in the prisoner-of-war camp. From an early age, Louie experienced discrimination and injustice as a kid and was bullied because of his Italian heritage, but he overcame that. He didn't let that define him. He became an elite athlete, overcoming his negative belief that he was nothing because when his brother, Pete, said, "Hey, Louie, why don't you try out for the track team?" He said, "Look, I'm nothing." And his brother had to say, "No, no, that's not true," and he just really encouraged him.
There were the seeds of his faith that became important in his life by that pastor at his church, and then later by Phil, the pilot who was in that raft for 47 days. And speaking of that raft, being on that raft for 47 days was also, ironically, preparation for the coming torture. He had to learn to survive. You got to think one day at a time, you got to have hope, and you've got to have a plan. He was able to use those key concepts, think one day at a time, have hope, and have a plan, to survive the years of being tortured.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Then, we get to the epilogue of Unbroken, and it notes in history tells us some things about Louie. His inner battle wasn't over. He had nightmares. He had anger. He had severe PTSD from the abuse he endured. He was haunted by memories of Watanabe. It would've been easy, even natural for Louie to live out his days consumed by bitterness and hatred for his former captors, and yet, and this is the remarkable part, remarkably, he chose forgiveness. Louie's suffering had meaning for him. It was a test of his character, faith, and perhaps preparation for something greater. Boy, does that not sound like every guest on Beyond the Crucible, that their crucibles are all of that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
Later, we know how his story itself became an inspiration to millions. That's a powerful meaning that can emerge from pain. So, Warwick, holding on to anger, you have said many, many, many times, it's like being a prisoner, and forgiveness sets us free. Why is forgiveness so crucial for healing after a trauma?
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, certainly, forgiveness is one of the biggest lessons of this whole movie. Louie spends a lifetime in forgiving others for injustice that's been done to him. He finds a way to move beyond bullying as a young boy for being of Italian heritage. He doesn't let that define him, and despite the fact that he doesn't really want to be on the track team, his brother, Pete, encourages him, and he does compete on the track team.
He finds a way to forgive Mac for eating all the chocolate on the raft. I mean, he could easily have said, "You've just killed us. It's over. Let's give up. I mean, this is... I told you we had to ration at two squares a day, and within a day or two, he eats the whole thing?" But yet, throughout the rest of those 47 days and the time up until Mac passed away, you never see any indication that he holds that against him. He just treats him as if it never happened, which is truly remarkable. And Louie even finds a way to forgive Watanabe for years of torture and humiliation. It's really almost Olympic level of moving beyond injustice and finding a way to forgive.
Gary Schneeberger:
Which makes sense coming from an Olympian, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Well said. And we learn in the credits that after the war is over, he goes to Japan, and he meets with the guards of the prisoner-of-war camp, and he meets with them face-to-face and forgives them. Only Watanabe would not meet with him. We don't know why really. Maybe it's because he feels like, "My enemy has defeated me. I'm not going to let him humiliate me even more and come to meet me." Watanabe was too small a man, just couldn't handle it, I'm sure, couldn't handle that experience.
So beyond the crucible, we often say, and we say it all the time, that lack of forgiveness is like drinking poison, and it's like being in prison. Louie was literally in a physical prison, but yet, he may have been in a physical prison, but in terms of a metaphorical prison or his prison of the soul, he was not in that kind of prison. Louie was free during those times of being in a prisoner-of-war camp, during that time in the raft. He did not let his circumstances define him. That may have imprisoned his body, but his soul could never be chained.
And even in that key moment of the movie, he's forced to lift that beam, he was still free. His spirit was not chained at all. So, again, we say all the time, the forgiveness does not mean condoning injustice. Certainly, the kind of injustice that Louie faced. I mean, that's about as bad as it gets, that, just torture over years. But while we don't condone what's that kind of injustice, we can't move beyond our crucible and avoid being defined by it without forgiveness.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. We're not quite done yet, folks. There's title cards that come after the credits. From those title cards, we learn that Louie returned to the Winter Olympics in Japan in 1998 and ran a leg with the Olympic torch. Ironically... Probably not ironically, probably as you said, Warwick, because we were talking about this. Probably very intentionally, very near the prisoner-of-war camp that he was at, he went on to marry and start a family.
As I mentioned, I'm blessed to have met and become friends with his son, Luke. And he founded a camp for troubled boys called Victory Boys Camp using his story to help young people find the right path. And he also became a sought-after inspirational speaker sharing his message of forgiveness and resilience, all this stuff. And again, I'm going to use my perspective from having worked on this movie in Hollywood in 2014.
All of this didn't fit into the full movie because you learn in Hollywood, movies have three acts. Here's the problem... the challenge, not a problem. The excellent, wonderful challenge about Louie Zamperini's life, it had four acts. It had the Olympics, it had being adrift at sea during the war, and it had prisoner-of-war camps, but it also had at the end of that that fourth act. That fourth act was forgiveness. That fourth act was starting a family, and it was one other thing that we've hinted at a little bit throughout this entire episode, and that is, right, Louie, when he was a kid, there's a flashback to the preacher in his church and his friend, his fellow airman on the boat who he asked some questions about God.
One of the things that I was responsible for, ironically, and I'm proud of it mostly because as a Christian, it was a great opportunity to do this. Angelina Jolie who directed the movie was the one who... It's three acts. You got to do three acts. It's a great movie in three acts. She couldn't get to the fourth act. But we, the firm I worked for, spoke with her, and we got a title card put at the end of the movie that said this. I'm going to hold it up right here so you can see it. I actually took a picture of it when I watched the movie, and here's what the title card, the last title card reads on the film, "After years of severe post-traumatic stress, Louie made good on his promise to serve God. The decision he credited was saving his life."
And that's really where Louie's story lands in the fourth act, which there is, by the way. There is a second movie that was made that does all the stuff that we were talking about here called Unbroken 2, I believe so. If you want to check that out, check that out. But Warwick, for folks who've been listening and watching, and might feel like their crucible experiences have ruined their life or left them aimless, what lessons can we learn and apply to help us come back from our crucibles from Louie's story?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Louie Zamperini's life is a story of resilience and refusing to be broken. He is, indeed, truly unbroken from the very beginning, whether it's being bullied by other kids, feeling like he doesn't fit on the track team and he's nothing, he's worthless from his perspective to coming back on the last lap of the Olympics race, surviving 47 days on a raft, and through surviving years of torture at a Japanese prisoner-of-war camp. Louie never gives up. Louie never gives in. He never gives up. He will not be defined by... We had more than one worst day. He many. He had years of worst days, years of challenges, years of beatings and torture, 47 days of worst days on a raft. I mean, he's had a lot of worst days, but he refuses to be defined by... He refuses to be broken.
So I think that Louie shows us that the key to survival within our spirit and soul is resilience, hope, faith, having a plan, and taking life one day at a time. And we see those kernels of faith that maybe were laid when he was in church as a boy and then by this fellow airmen in the life raft and his initial conversation saying, "If I survive, I'm going to follow you, Lord, and follow your plan for my life." It took a while, and he had, as you mentioned, PTSD and challenges after the war as I'm sure many people who've fought in World War II and other wars have had. But through all of those circumstances, some in the movie, some in the second movie, he never let them break it.
And really, I think the key lesson that we can learn is every day, we have a choice. Are we going to be broken or unbroken? Are we going to be defined by that day, which may be an incredibly tough day, it may be the worst day of our life, or are we going to choose to say, "I'm not going to let this day, I'm not going to let these circumstances defeat me. I will be unbroken today, and then the next day, and the next day, and the next day, each day," to refuse to be broken in your spirit so that in that sense, you're living a life of significance unbroken in the sense that if you're defined by your worst day, that's not being unbroken? Being unbroken means coming back from your worst day, from your most challenging crucible to lead a life of significance, life on purpose, dedicated to serving others.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, you may see the lights are on now. The theater is no longer dark. We finished our feature. We have finished the first episode of our summer series. We have eight in all. This was the first one. If you enjoyed this, we ask you to do a couple things. One, if you're listening on your favorite podcast app, subscribe so you never miss an episode, and leave a comment. Tell us what you think about the show in general, this episode in particular.
If you're watching this on YouTube, do the same. Subscribe to the channel so you get episodes every week when they come out, but also, leave a comment. Tell us what you thought about this episode because we really appreciate your feedback. And next week, we are going to move on. I'm going to run outside right after we finish this and put that up on the marquee. Our film next week that we're going to discuss is Hidden Figures. So until then, folks, save us an aisle seat.
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How Bonhoeffer Film Director Battled His Own Darkness: Todd Komarnicki
Our guest this week, Hollywood writer, producer and director Todd Komarnicki, discusses the instructive and inspirational life of German pastor and theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the subject of a film he made last year. The movie, which explores how Bonhoeffer summoned the courage during the rise of Adolf Hitler to call his nation’s churches to stand against the Nazi leader’s attempts to overtake them, is a profound look at the power of faith to change a life. And so is Komarnicki’s personal story, which we also discuss here, of how rediscovering his own faith saved him from a darkness from which he almost didn’t escape.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Todd Komarnicki:
They call me on a Friday and they say, "We have the money. On Monday, we're making an offer to a director unless you say finally that you're going to do it, otherwise we got to go find somebody." So, I didn't say yes. I said, "I need to take the weekend to pray with my wife." And then on Monday morning, while we were walking back from school dropping off our son, my wife told me that we were moving to Europe to make Bonhoeffer.
Gary Schneeberger:
You just heard our guest this week, Hollywood writer, producer, and director Todd Komarnicki describe how he came to bring the film Bonhoeffer to the screen last year. His true story of the German pastor and theologian who came to call his nation's churches to stand up to the barbarism of Adolf Hitler is a profound look at the power of faith to change a life. And so is Komarnicki's personal story, which we also discuss here of how rediscovering his own faith saved him from a darkness he almost didn't escape from.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Todd, it's wonderful to have you here. We actually met at a Taylor University event the last few months where you were speaking and highlighting your new movie Bonhoeffer, and we're also were introduced by Michael Lindsay, the President of Taylor. All my kids went there. It's a great Christian university. So, just for folks that may want to know a little bit more about Todd, Todd is a prolific writer, producer, a director of film and television, as well as an acclaimed novelist. So, you'll remember some of Todd's movies. He wrote the screenplay for Sully, which did exceptionally well with 2016 AFI Top 10 Film, grossed over $240 million. He also did Perfect Stranger, The Professor and the Madman, Resistance, and perennial Christmas favorite Elf, which did fabulously well. Grossed over $220 million. My family and I have watched Elf so many times. There's occasionally somebody might've said, "Do we have to watch Elf again? It's a great movie, but we've watched it so many times."
Todd Komarnicki:
I'm really sorry about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's how many times.
Todd Komarnicki:
It has penetrated the culture at the saturation point. It's crazy.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's a great movie. And so, Todd's production company Guy Walks Into a Bar, which fabulous name, have earned over half a billion dollars. So, Todd is a very proficient at his craft and has done extremely well.
Gary Schneeberger:
Hey, can I jump in, Warwick, right here?
Warwick Fairfax:
Please.
Gary Schneeberger:
This, Todd, is a first for this show, more than 250 episodes in. You're the first guest we've ever interviewed who I've written a book and you're in it. That movie that Warwick talked about, Perfect Stranger, here it is right here. In the films of Bruce Willis, there it is, and your name is right at the top as the writer of Perfect Stranger.
Todd Komarnicki:
That's crazy.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, there we are. All worlds collide.
Todd Komarnicki:
I feel like opening a high school yearbook and showing that you were voted most likely to write a book about Bruce Willis.
Gary Schneeberger:
That could have been true. That could have been true.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, we want to get to chatting about Bonhoeffer, but we'd like to hear just a bit of the backstory, Todd, just growing up and were there any keys to your interest in writing and filmmaking growing up? So, what was life like for young Todd growing up?
Todd Komarnicki:
Well, I was incredibly blessed. I won the parent lottery and I was raised in a home that was deeply rooted in faith but was also deeply rooted in the arts. So, my mother was a professional singer and my father, although he felt like he didn't have overt artistic ability, was really kind of a working poet. He was always writing long letters to my mom and my sisters and I, sometimes 17, 18, 19 pages long when he'd be away on business, and they would often include what could only be described as sections of pure poetry. And he was an avid reader, as was my mother. So, Sinatra was always playing, Tchaikovsky was always playing, Mahler was always playing. My mom was on the piano. Both my sisters sang. I was involved in musical theater from the time I was five all the way up into college and acting, and also pursuing a life of sports. I was blessed to be able to walk both sides of those train tracks.
So, it was an amazing childhood. I just got asked by my daughter who's 15 and she's doing a legacy project for her sophomore end of year project. And so, she interviewed me yesterday and one of the things that she asked me was, "What is the happiest holiday memory of your life?" And this is within the context of the Crucible that you were talking about. Within this incredibly happy childhood, there was also this year, it lasted about two years, where through the collapse of the company my dad was working for, through fraud, nothing to do with my dad, we went from being upper middle class to having nothing.
And it happened very suddenly. I was nine years old, and I know later when I talked to my dad about it, what he was going through at the age of 46, certain that he'd been part of something that he wouldn't recover from, and he would go for long runs and want to just run out of his own skin because he didn't know how to fix what happened or how to look after his wife and three kids with this sudden terrible turn of events. But ironically, and I'm a firm believer of flowers grow in manure or another word, but really, all the beauty comes from the hard stuff. Remarkably, that Christmas is my favorite holiday memory. And if I want to have a joyous trip back into the past, I just think about that Christmas. And in that Christmas, we had no ornaments because everything was in storage from our previous house.
We were in a tiny rental house in New Jersey and we made our own ornaments, and everybody in the family got one gift. And I remember my gift, it was a large soup or coffee mug, maybe 20 ounces, with all the NFL team emblems around the cup. I kept it until my forties, until it completely fell apart. And the joy in that house while we were making those ornaments, we were given a puppy that Christmas from the litter of my aunt and uncle, little Shadow running around in this rental house. And so, I know what my dad was feeling. He was feeling hollowed out. He was feeling confused and injured. But whatever my parents did, however they portrayed what was happening, it felt like the most magical adventure in this new unusual house with hardly any furniture ,and a little backyard where I could play Wiffle ball, and we'd make our own ornaments and the family was so close, and the dog sitting up on the top of the couch waiting for us to come home through this picture window, all joy.
And that was right in the middle of one of the worst things that ever happened to my dad. So, I think about that a lot now in raising children and trying to help them understand not only is difficulty excellent, but it's not to be run from, it's to be investigated. It's to be understood while it's happening, even when it's not understandable at all, that we need to sit with it. We need to look at scripture where again and again, the rhythm of the Psalms are, the hard Psalms are where are you? I can't find you, have you forgotten me? And at the end, I know you love me and you love me forever. So, I honestly believe that so much of human suffering and spiritual anguish and mental anguish comes from trying to flee difficulty. And when you can't get away from it, you add to the difficulty by experiencing the pain of feeling trapped, and there's this great freedom in just sitting in the difficulty.
Warwick Fairfax:
Boy, that is an incredible story and as I listen, and I'm sure you've probably thought of this, as you described that moment when you're a kid, little did you know that amongst other things, you were born to make a movie about Dietrich Bonhoeffer because you're quoting his philosophy in a sense, which we'll get to. But it's like you had a perspective in that Christmas when you went from having a lot to having so much less and you had this attitude, well, I don't know about them, but attitude is not running from difficulties, but just maybe running towards them. That's straight Bonhoeffer as we'll get to.
But, so just talk about that Christmas. Why do you think it was so special and there was so much joy amidst, and I'm sure your dad was just feeling like, how could I have not seen this? What could I have done? Why was I here? This is unfair. He probably went through a sea of emotions. But for you, why was there so much joy? Why was that Christmas so special?
Todd Komarnicki:
I think because my parents made it an adventure, and I don't know what they were sharing with my oldest sister who was five years older, but to a nine-year-old boy, I didn't need to be sat down and explained like, "Here's what fraud is and here's what this particular individual lied to your dad about, and now we're out of luck." So, it wasn't so much about explaining as it was this notion of adventure. And there's a great book called The Adventure of Living by Paul Tournier, it was one of my dad's favorite books. And it's just about moving through the world with your sense of wonder, wide open. What's next? What could it be? Could be anything. I always have said that the worst thing or the most difficult thing about life is we never know what's going to happen next. And the best thing about life is that we never know what's going to happen next.
And my parents just created an atmosphere in which that was okay. Whatever was next, whatever... I was a new kid in a school five consecutive years because we moved so much. And so, maybe that's crucible that turned me into a writer because I had to figure out all the characters and how to navigate and how to hang onto who I was while having to re-explain every time who I was. But, yes, I would give the credit to my parents and obviously the Holy Spirit, that within their suffering and whatever their last conversation was in bed every night, whatever level of worry or disappointment or sorrow that they were feeling, they did not pass that on to their children.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, how do you... So, it sounds like you had this sense of wonder. How did you get into writing screenplays and making movies, and how did that journey kind of evolve?
Todd Komarnicki:
Well, this is for people who have listened to me before on podcasts, this is the one metaphor I always have to repeat. I try really hard to never tell the same story twice. It's tricky. You don't want to wind up sounding like a talk show guest. But this is just a fact of my life. So, the metaphor is, a mother dog taking a wandering puppy who's gone astray by the scruff of the neck and returning them to where they're supposed to belong. That's my whole life. And so, me becoming a writer, never thought about it. Me winding up directing Bonhoeffer, said no to it. On and on and on. If you want to see what my life has been made out of, it's been me drifting away, not drifting away from God, but just like, "Oh, I guess I'm supposed to be over here." And then God, as mother dog saying, "No sweetheart, here."
And that's why the skin at the back of the neck is so loose on a dog because it doesn't hurt to be carried. It's there because God knows the puppy will go astray. And so, it's loose skin so the mother can take because it has no hands. It's a genius creation how God did that. So, I'm still at 59 sniffing around in the wrong gardens all the time. And then, oh, and now I notice in mid-carry, okay, all right, we're going back over here. Okay, fine. I look forward to where you're putting me. And that's been the story of my whole career. Becoming a screenwriter, becoming a producer, becoming a storyteller has really just been God's plan, an inescapable plan. I'll tell you another story that involves my dad. One of the things that's deeply frustrating about Hollywood and even more so now is that so little of what they purchase or hire becomes an actual movie.
So, I've got a giant script graveyard of movies that I've sold that have never gotten made. I've written 23 television pilots for the networks and had one show made. So, that's 22 hired scripts, all the characters, all the work that will never see the light of day. So, at a certain point, I think it was 2007, I sort of had it and I also felt like, okay, Lord, you're sustaining me financially in this life, but it's very unsatisfying and nothing's coming out, and I feel like I'm farming and I can't bring anything to market. So, I feel like I'm ready for a change. I feel like I should do something else with my life. Not completely leave the business, but I was ready to set my pen down. And I spent a couple of days in London with my dad playing the violin, and he listened, and then at the end of our time together, he said, "Okay, I have an answer for you and you're not going to like it."
"Okay. What is it?" He said, "The only way that you're going to get through this desire to no longer write is to write." He said, "I've known you your whole life and I know this to be true. You are a writer. It's how you see the world, it's how you move through the world. It's who you are. So, you may not want to do that today, but down the road, you're going to find yourself writing your way out of this." And I said, "You're right. I don't like your answer and you're wrong because this time, dad, you've been wise for a long time, this time, big swing and a miss." And three weeks later, I had to call him humbly and say, "You were 100% correct."
And in fact, as a gift that God provided in addition, for the first time, and I mean this to be true, for the first time, I began to enjoy writing. The long bulk of my career I had loved having written, but I hated writing. Writing was so hard and just grinding, and the result or the finishing was deeply satisfying. That's what motivated me further. But from the point that my dad re-guided me, I have loved writing and I love it. I love writing scenes, crafting stories, even if no one sees it. I have this beautiful relationship with the Holy Spirit and the blank page and the open hours, and it's delicious.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, one of the things we find at Beyond the Crucible, we've had so many guests that say, "What I went through was a blessing." And these, we've had so many stories. I think of Stacey Kopas, who, Australian woman in her teen years became diagnosed as a quadriplegic diving into an above ground pool. She of course was angry at herself, suicidal ideation, how could I have been so dumb? But as the years went by and she speaks and coaches, she said she's thankful for what she went through, almost as a blessing. I've had several guests, more than one have said this and we've coined a phrase, and Gary and I say it fairly often, that the crucible didn't happen to you, it happened for you.
If you learn the lessons, there is beauty. I mean, none of us are advocating crucibles. We don't, I don't want to diminish the pain. We've had some people with some graphic crucibles, but it can transform you into something better if you let them. I think that's what you are talking about. It reminds me of something else you said when you spoke at Taylor. You said something about 95% of scripts are turned down, and I forget the exact phrase, but of something like the blessed no or the blessing of no.
Todd Komarnicki:
Oh yeah, yeah. This is [inaudible 00:18:28].
Warwick Fairfax:
That just blew me away because I think it's in the same vein I'm talking about.
Todd Komarnicki:
The phrase God gave me about five years ago is vitamin no.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right. That was it.
Todd Komarnicki:
And I'm a big fan. I used to take no as frustration or disappointment or delay or confusion. And no is just beautiful. No is so beautiful. And if every time you hear no, you take it as a vitamin and you know you're getting stronger, that by the time yes comes, you now have the capacity to live out that yes. And so, I'm a big fan of vitamin no. And also, just to talk to young people because in the beginning, if you're dreaming of being in the movie business, even just getting the first toenail across the line is wrapped in 10,000 nos from everybody back home. Why would you do that crazy thing? Why would you pursue that dream? Get a real job. And then, all the people that are standing guard in front of the invisible kingdom that don't want you in either, it's pretty much exclusively no for a number of years. So, if you can receive that as, "Oh my goodness, this is fantastic. Rain on me. Water my crops with all these no's." It's transformative.
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's talk about your faith journey. I think you were raised maybe in a Christian home? There's a challenging period, maybe your refining period and you came back to faith, and just talk about maybe the arc of your faith journey because I have a feeling it informs everything you do and everything you are. You can't understand who you are, Todd, without understanding your faith journey and that arc.
Todd Komarnicki:
100%. Yeah. I mean, I think we all know the word rescue. It's why we can share a kindred spirit among ourselves. But 100%. I'm only alive, I am only anything because of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. There is no me here without it, and there is no way I can live my life without that being engine, oxygen, blood, thought, word, deed. Jesus is king. And the way I found that out was by rejecting him. I had grown up in a Christian home, loving home like I said. I got to college. Didn't take very long before my faith was in tatters because I didn't have a real faith. I had a performative faith. I knew where all the books in the Bible were. I knew how to get a pat on the back at Bible camp. I knew that I could sing the hymns without looking at the pages, but I didn't know Jesus. And so, when college offered some other viewpoints, there was no scaffolding to hold my building up.
Now, again, we talk about this notion of the necessity of difficulty in the crucible. So, this rejection of God that I actively pursued and vocally pursued, God bless some sweet, sweet kids at Wheaton who had to suffer under my Nietzschean certainty of meaninglessness of life on long bus rides with the baseball team. And I was evangelistic about the fact that there was no God. So, it's extraordinary. I'll tell you a story about one of my teammates in a minute that encapsulates how God never walks away from us even when we're in the pitch dark.
But that pursuit of darkness was vital to me to understand that when you go deeper and deeper into the dark, there's no answer on the other side of it. It just gets darker, and it gets so dark that all you want to do is have an end. And when you think it has no meaning, you're encouraged to want to end it. So, it's a miracle I'm here. That's why this baseline of childlike joy is kind of my signature. When I meet new people, or even my dad, he thought I was kidding. He was like, "You can't actually be that happy. You can't actually be that upbeat about everything." But when you kiss death in the mouth and you walk away... So he... There was a rooftop.
And this is a real thing. This is not a metaphor. There was a rooftop of my dorm building. I lived on the sixth floor and it was a seven-floor building and the eighth floor was the roof. And I would go out and stand at night on the edge of the roof and close my eyes and put my arms out so I could just fall. So many nights. And years later, maybe I was 25 or 26, I started to feel a small kind of fist-like pressure against the middle of my back, sort of where a belt would go around a pair of pants, just sort of this pressure like this. And I felt it for, I don't know, it wasn't an injury, it was like being, like someone was pressing me from behind. And finally God said to me, "That was me holding you by the belt so you wouldn't fall."
Gary Schneeberger:
When you and I talked before the show, you described the way that God brought you back, back when you were still a few years younger. One of the things I tell people who are also writers, "The best compliment I can pay to you is I don't like you very much." And the reason why is, all the words that you use, I know the meanings of, but I just don't think to string them together the way that you have done. So, the phrase that you used to describe how God brought you back, you used two phrases. One you said was an act of rough mercy or an act of violent grace. That's how God got you back when you were in the darkness. That's true for your life, but that's true pretty much for the crucibles we face too in general, isn't it?
Todd Komarnicki:
No, absolutely. This goes back to what we were talking about before. We're taught to flee difficulty.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Todd Komarnicki:
And this reminds me of the great poem, the Hound of Heaven. The guy is running the whole time and feeling like he's going to be devoured, and when he finally turns around, he sees it was God chasing him the whole time just to say, "I love you." So, I think he allows, I don't think God said to 19-year-old me, "Fall apart." I think he allowed me to go to the far edges of myself and to nearly disappear, but he never left me.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Todd, talk a bit about how you bounce back because that's, I sort of sense maybe some different undertones in your story that maybe before you didn't need God, but afterwards, you did. Maybe there was a change in that.
Todd Komarnicki:
I think I was just a cocky kid. Things were facile for me. Sports, academics, I was quick-witted. I didn't have a sense of grace or compassion. I didn't see the world as anything except something for me to be entertained by or to entertain. I didn't see need. But when you suddenly find out that you're still here and it's come through personal pain, that's all you see. You see in everybody, you see Christ in them and you see what they're going through, they're suffering, and you want to do something about it. You want to let them know that there's a God who loves them.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, were there any keys to you bouncing back because you're a new man now. How did you get out of that Nietzschean black hole? I mean, that's a black hole that many never escape from and they spend their lives in bitterness and anger and darkness.
Todd Komarnicki:
So, my sophomore year for our spring baseball trip, our assistant coach on that team was a military man. Retired military, but had been military. And so, when we went down for the southern swing in Pensacola, we stayed on an army base. And I'd been doing this standing on the building thing, I'd been walking down to the train tracks and standing next to the speeding trains with the same inability to take that last inch step to ensure that I was gone. But when we arrived at this army base, I knew that I had everything I needed because there were nothing but guns. There were guns everywhere, and not secured. Just walls of guns. It was crazy.
And so, when we arrived that night, I knew this was it. So, I was sitting in my room with my best friend, Steve Nagel. I always call him Jesus with a crew cut. He had a great crew cut back in the day. And at about 2:00 in the morning, I wrote my suicide note to my parents. And he stirred and he said, "What are you doing?" And so, I read it to him. And I said, "I'm going to do it tonight." And he said, "You're going to have to get through me first." So I thought, all right, I'll wait him out. He'll fall asleep. It's the middle of the night. And later, I found myself having fallen asleep. I woke up and it was maybe 6:00 in the morning.
I looked over and his bed was empty. And then, I looked to the right and he was asleep, but he was asleep up against the door, his back against the door and his legs in front of him so that I couldn't get past him. So, that was the first thing. I went back to Wheaton after the trip and I called my parents and I, and this is the greatest act of parenting I think I've ever seen in my life. I read them the note, I read them my suicide note because I knew I had to do it. I couldn't live anymore.
And their reaction, in the same way that Steve had saved my life on the night in Florida, their reaction to their son reading this letter to them saved my life, long enough for me to start to hear God. They were so calm. They didn't say, "We're coming to get you." They didn't say, "Go to a hospital." They just poured love on me. Poured it. And they said, "We don't know when or how, but it's going to get better. And it might not be a lightning bolt. God might not sit on the edge of your bed and tell you it's all okay, but it already is all okay. He has you. We love you."
And I remember, I was experiencing such mania. You sort of can't sleep and you just feel completely crazy. And I remember pouring all that static into the phone and receiving back all this grace. And then, it really physically tamped down this panic that I had. Wow. And then I started thinking, you can't do that. You can't do this to those people. You can't. So, that kept me around long enough to one day I came home to my apartment, and I knew that when I chucked my faith, I had a living bible that I'd grown up with and that I had with me.
And when I chucked my faith, I had been super angry and had actually stood over a waste paper basket with the living Bible. So angry that it was so filled with lies. And you know those green metal sort of industrial trash cans that are in schools? So, I'm standing over one of those with the living Bible, and I'm unable to throw it away. I was like, can you throw a Bible away? Is it going to burst into flames? Literally, I couldn't put it in the bin. So, I took it and I hid it behind all my other books on the bookshelf.
So, on this particular night, I came home and I knew it was back there sort of humming. And I reached back and I grabbed it and I sat on the edge of my bed and I held the Bible and I said to the God I didn't believe in, hilariously, "If I open this," this was my bargain. "If I open this, it better be true." Or else what? I mean, it's just so funny. And guess what? I opened it and it was true. It was true.
Warwick Fairfax:
Very well said. Well, I want talk about Bonhoeffer, and I've read Eric Metaxas' book on Bonhoeffer and it was just blown away. I loved your movie and it was great telling that story. Clearly, this is a challenge to tell a story as epic, and at least in some circles, it's well known. And so, from what I understand, and you mentioned this at Taylor, this was a movie you didn't want to make and did everything you could possible almost not to make it. It's like, no, not happening. So, talk about how God leading you by, to use your analogy, the scruff of your neck. It's like you were trying to run the other way and God's like, "No, Todd." So, talk about why you didn't want to make it and how you ended up making a movie you didn't want to make?
Todd Komarnicki:
Well, I mean it's just the great old line, how do you make God laugh? Tell him your plans. It's exactly that. I got a call, I got sent a script to rewrite, to do a production polish on a movie that was financed and ready to go with the director, about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And I read the script and it was a redo, a start over. It wasn't a polish. And in fact, Bonhoeffer himself was the second lead character in the story of his life. And the lead character was a completely invented non-historical character. On top of that, there were seven other major characters that were not historical, that were made up. And so, I said no.
And I said, "If you guys go make this movie, you're going to lose $10 million because he had a spectacular life and he deserves a good movie. And also, he deserves a movie told from his perspective. He left behind so much work that said how he saw the world. You don't need to tell it from God's eye, you tell it from his perspective." And the producer who had sent me the script said, "Can I... would you come say that to the financiers?" And I said no. And I said, "I told you, you tell them." And then he, I've told this joke before, it's not a joke, it's just true. But it is funny. He said the two words that, apparently if you say these two words back to back, they're my kryptonite. And the words were sushi lunch.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's so very LA of you. That's so very LA.
Todd Komarnicki:
Well, this was New York. This was all happening in New York.
Gary Schneeberger:
I know, I know. That was my LA experience though.
Todd Komarnicki:
But I'm a sucker for sushi, but I never had it for lunch. I was like, this is outrageous. They have sushi for lunch? These are fancy people. I'll go meet with them. So, I eat my sushi and I tell them exactly what I said on the phone and they said, "Great, we'll start over. We want you to do it." And I said, "No, I'm too busy and I don't do independent films. I only do studio movies." So, it's not... Financially, it's such a massive lift. I mean, it's months and months of reading all his books and I have a family to raise and I have a life in New York and I can't do an independent film. I'm not a kid. And Mono Campores, the lead financier said to me, "Go home, talk to your wife, pick a number, send it to me and I'll pay it."
Warwick Fairfax:
Wow.
Todd Komarnicki:
So, I wasn't a jerk. I didn't ask for $2 million in unmarked bills left by a post box. But I gave him a number that was going to show that he needed to really be understand what he was doing, that he was being part of something that was serious and studio-esque. And he said yes immediately. Then I wrote the movie and they had $10 million in the bank to make it, and the budget of this movie I wrote was 22. So, they said, "We're going to go raise the rest of this money. Would you come on to produce with us, because you obviously know how to produce and we've never produced anything."
And I said, "Well, I'll help you, I'll guide you, but I'm not a money raiser. I'm not going to help you find money. It's not what I do." And then of course, I was on fundraising calls because I said no. And then, six months into that process, they said, "Well, we have all the money raised. We've decided that we don't want anyone else to direct it but you. You know it the best and we've come to love you." And I said no.
Gary Schneeberger:
Can I stop you just for a second and say-
Todd Komarnicki:
Sure.
Gary Schneeberger:
... because earlier you said you have a pile of scripts that are all stamped with no, right? It was like 1 out of 24. You've gotten a lot of no. Hollywood, I worked there for three years in the film industry. No's come like a whirlwind. This was your chance. I mean, you were saying no to Hollywood. How did that feel to have those roles reversed?
Todd Komarnicki:
It wasn't no to Hollywood. And I do say no a lot. I mean, there's projects come on the regular that I say no to. So, it wasn't new to say no, but these folks were not movie people. They were just people who loved Bonhoeffer and had money, and they were committed. They were certain. They were like, "It's you and we're going to just pursue you." So, I didn't feel an emotion about saying no. I felt certain that the answer was no. I felt [inaudible 00:39:53]. I thought I was right. And then, another six months go by, they raise the rest of the money. They call me on a Friday and they say, "We have the money. On Monday, we're making an offer to a director unless you say finally that you're going to do it, otherwise we got to go find somebody."
So, I didn't say yes. I said, "I need to take the weekend to pray with my wife." And then on Monday morning, while we were walking back from school dropping off our son, my wife told me that we were moving to Europe to make Bonhoeffer. She told me. So, I never said yes. She just said, "Yeah, we're getting a house, it's going to be great. We'll be in the countryside outside of Brussels and we're going." And I didn't say yes to directing Bonhoeffer until the 10th day of shooting where we were in a cathedral in Belgium and I'm surrounded by 200 crew members taking stuff here and there, we're setting up the shot. And I said, "Okay, okay, God, I accept. I will... Jonah in the belly of the whale. Okay, I get it. This is where you wanted me." And I'm hoping that he had a good old chuckle at my terrible timing.
Warwick Fairfax:
Boy, the power of no. And it's like, well, you can say no to God. It's like, I hear what you're saying, Todd, but you're doing it anyway. It's like, what don't you get?
Todd Komarnicki:
That's the mother dog. It's the mother dog. It's so loving and so compassionate because he gave me this beautiful thing to do. It's not like I was asked to become a coal miner and suffer in the... I got to direct a movie. I got to have this amazing thing. But he wasn't interested in my answer. He was interested in me, and his answer was the better answer.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, let's talk a bit about this movie. Not everybody may know the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and I think of it as a little bit like a movie about Lincoln. It's like, but don't give it away, well, I'm sorry, but Lincoln does get assassinated in 1865. So, this historical figure. So, talk a bit about just the overall arc of the story, and then I have a few particular scenes I want to ask you about. But just talk, for those who don't know anything about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, why is he such an incredible person that we need to know a lot more about than we do know?
Todd Komarnicki:
Yes. He was a singular and clarion voice against evil at a time when the rest of the German church completely acquiesced to Hitler. The thing that's front and center in this movie that is not a part of what we're taught in American history because it doesn't involve America and the war yet, is that the first thing Hitler did in '33 when he took power, he only had 33% of the Politburo. He was just chancellor. He did not have the power that he wanted, and so he went after the church. And in that time, it was different from what we call the American church. There's no real American church. And in Germany, it was like a monolithic, the Catholic Church and the Protestant church, and it was equally as powerful as the government, if not more so. And Hitler just went in there, and now you have to remember, this is not Hitler with concentration camps yet.
He's not espousing that yet. But he's definitely othering the Jews, making them into the villains. And he gets both the Catholic Church and the Protestant church to essentially kiss the ring. And as I say in the movie, exchange full pews for full hearts. And it's part of a rising nationalism that happens in Germany and is fueled aggressively by the church. And here's Dietrich, 27 years old, back from Harlem where he really met Jesus for the first time in the Abyssinian Baptist Church in his time at Union Seminary in New York. He's watching aghast as Hitler is proclaiming himself the head of the church, and no one else will say anything. He gives a very famous sermon at Kaiser Wilhelm. The Nazis walk out on him. He essentially paints a target on his chest that never leaves his chest for the next 12 years because he made a decision that Jesus is a man for others and the Jews are being othered,, and the people on the margins are being othered and the church should be fighting for them first, not last.
And the church should not be giving power to a man. It should be giving all power, glory and honor to a loving God. And there were some people that gathered around him in the resistance. They formed what's called the Confessing Church, and many of them did not survive the war. And he went on this journey where he went from being a pacifist to finally coming to believe that he needed to throw his hat in with an assassination attempt. And he still, he said, in German and in the German translation of the movie is clearer. In the English in the movie I have, his best friend asks, "Will God forgive us if we do this, the assassination?" And Dietrich says, "Will he forgive us if we don't?" And actually in the German, it's better. And in the German essentially it said, "We will need to be forgiven if we do this, but we will also need to be forgiven if we don't."
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's such a great story. I mean, you highlight so many of the good moments. Obviously, early on in the movie, Bonhoeffer, Dietrich loses his beloved older brother Walter in the first World War in 1918, which is awful. But yeah, you highlight well just the impact that this Abyssinian Baptist church, African-American church, and they sort of ask him, "Have you met the Lord?" And the personal faith is just, he doesn't quite, he understands theology but not, he just doesn't have a frame of reference for that.
Todd Komarnicki:
And he was a pastor. He was actually pastoring and preaching, but the bulk of theologians at that time, they didn't go to church. It was not relational at all. It was all academic. So, that's why he was so blindsided by the question, "Where were you when you met the Lord?" And he actually said, "What do you mean met the Lord?" I write about the Lord. I think I know something about the Lord, but he hadn't met him. And then, he met him in Harlem.
Warwick Fairfax:
And there's another wonderful scene where Bonhoeffer is with a buddy of his, I want to say, is it Frank Fisher? And they're on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. It's a great scene. It's at night and he says, "Gosh, there's so much hate and racism and it's just awful." And he says, "Gosh, it's so fortunate that kind of hate doesn't exist-
Todd Komarnicki:
In Germany.
Warwick Fairfax:
... in Germany." And Frank says, "Well..." Kind of hate's everywhere. I Forget the exact words.
Todd Komarnicki:
Hate comes in every color. Your eyes just haven't been open yet.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly, exactly. It's so well said. And then it goes back to Germany and you point out the rise of Hitler, and people didn't really believe, people of education and intellect, what have you, didn't believe that he would ultimately succeed long term. But, yeah, I mean, something switched in Bonhoeffer, just as you said, speaking in front of the Kaiser Wilhelm Church and the Nazi offices, and he knew exactly what he was doing. And we, the German church are giving their hearts to another. The German church must stand on God's word alone. And at the time, his mentor, I guess Martin Niemöller is kind of like, the pews are filling. He has an epiphany later, but not at the time. And there was some older pastor that's kind of secretly praising him. He goes off to the US, back to US and the UK and just raises awareness of Hitler. And then, he goes off to this retreat, I think it's on, there's a Baltic coast. It's northern Germany somewhere.
Todd Komarnicki:
Yes, exactly.
Warwick Fairfax:
On the coast. And I remember reading about it in the book by Eric Metaxas. And so, he meets Martin Niemöller there again, who admits he's wrong. He didn't see it. And, yeah, he talks about the Nazi Bible, which is just horrific, saying that Jesus is airing the now 12 commandments, one of which is-
Todd Komarnicki:
It's a real thing. It's a really [inaudible 00:48:59].
Warwick Fairfax:
... Honor your furor and keep the blood pure? I mean, it's like... One of the great points in the movie, there are so many good points, it's when Martin Niemöller gives a sermon in church. Is it the same church, the Kaiser Wilhelm Church?
Todd Komarnicki:
No, it's Dalin. It's where he was the pastor in Berlin.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay. And he just gives one of the great sermons probably of the time. He says that when the Nazis came for the socialists, he did not speak up because he wasn't a socialist. When they came for the trade unions, he didn't speak up because he was not a unionist. When they came for the Jews, he didn't speak up soon enough because he wasn't a Jew. So, when they come to my door, will there be anyone left to speak out for me? I mean, that is just, both of these men had huge courage. There's another amazing moment when Bonhoeffer, he is back in New York, he's talking to this pastor, African-American pastor, the Abyssinian Baptist, and he says, "Will you follow him all the way to the cross?" And Bonhoeffer says he's running towards, not running away from the cross. And it's incredibly moving moment because he could have stayed in safety in the US or in Britain. But he knows, going back to Germany at this point, is certain death. I mean, he's accused [inaudible 00:50:33].
Todd Komarnicki:
It's the return to Jerusalem, really.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah.
Todd Komarnicki:
I mean, if you want to connect it to the Christ story, absolutely he could have stayed and lived a long life and preached and written, and there's no question about it. But he went back to Jerusalem. He went back where he felt called to be.
Warwick Fairfax:
And that's, and there's a, towards the end of his life, he died, gosh, a few weeks, a couple of weeks before the Allies rescued Bonhoeffer's fellow prisoners and maybe three weeks or so before Hitler committed suicide and the war was over. But in the movie, he is in this, in a small building with some other prisoners, and the guard there basically gives him a way out. It's like...
Todd Komarnicki:
Which is 100% true. He was offered escape. The guard that oversaw him in Tegel prison, watched him for a period of weeks and months, interact with family visitors, talk to other prisoners, and became completely enamored with the quality of the soul of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and risked his own life to offer escape for Dietrich. And Dietrich said no. There was another no.
Warwick Fairfax:
And not only that, which is incredible, that they had communion shortly before Bonhoeffer died. And he invited this guy in and his fellow prisoners are saying, "This is a German. These are Nazi soldiers." And he said, "Well, communion is for everybody." I mean, that is the gospel. It's for sinners, it's for everybody. It's not just an us against them. It's we. We all are sinners. I mean, talk about faith and action. And as he dies, he really, just before he dies, he talks about, from the Sermon on the Mount, he says, "Blessed are those that mourn for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure and heart for they shall receive Go." He's smiling as he is metaphorically going to the cross. I mean, that is faith.
Gary Schneeberger:
There's no shortage of crucible experiences that Dietrich Bonhoeffer goes through in the film, not the least of which is the persecution by the Nazis. But is there one particular, either one crucible or several crucibles or a kind of crucible that can be helpful to us as we go through our own difficult experiences, our own crucibles, our own efforts to move from trial to triumph that Bonhoeffer walked out? Can we learn something from him that we can apply to our own lives when it comes to facing down crucibles?
Todd Komarnicki:
Yes, I would highly recommend that everybody read his poem Who Am I? And the best way to experience it is that the BBC did a beautiful Sunday program in April in commemoration of the 80th anniversary of Bonhoeffer's death, where Tom Hanks reads Bonhoeffer's poem Who Am I? And you feel, because of Tom's skill, the full depth and layering of what Bonhoeffer's saying about his walk through the crucible, because the question he keeps asking himself in that poem Who Am I? is, am I the person that everybody celebrates and thinks is great? Am I the person that I think I am, self-recriminating, wracked by doubts? Am I the person who wants to be in love? Am I the person that feels like I should not receive anything?
Essentially, he asks, like the Psalmists, am I human? Yes, you're human. And the end of the poem is so beautiful. It's simply ends, "No matter who I am, Lord, I know I am thine." That is a great entry into the life of Bonhoeffer and to how similar he is to us because he's not a hero with a cape. He's a regular guy, and he had doubts and he had loneliness and he had frustration, and he traded his entire life of privilege just to speak the truth in love. It's very relatable, this guy.
I remember my colleague who's 31. He said before he saw the movie, he was terrified that it was going to be a movie about someone that he could never be like. And when he walked out, he said, "Oh my goodness, I can be like Dietrich." Those are the heroes we really want. The people that have done, on paper seemingly impossible things, but when you see the actual practical application of what love looks like in courage, you feel like, I can do that.
Gary Schneeberger:
I was going to say, Warwick, we've covered a lot of the stuff that we said we wanted to cover. As I say all the time, it sounds, you heard folks, captain turned on the fasten seatbelt sign, indicating we've begun our descent to end the conversation, but we're not there yet. Before I turn it back to you, Warwick, and give you the chance to ask Todd a couple questions more, let me point out folks, if you want to see Bonhoeffer right now, it's available on Amazon Prime and it's available on Apple TV. So, you can check this movie out that we've been talking about from the man who we've been talking to. You can check that out. Amazon Prime, Apple TV. Warwick, any final question or questions for Todd?
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Todd, there may be somebody here who, maybe for them, today is the black night of the soul. They may not be on the edge of a rooftop, but they may be just feeling like life is meaningless. It's just there is no God, there is no purpose. What would a word of hope be for somebody that was where you were, at least in some sense, some word of hope that would help them take baby steps beyond that sort of dark night of the soul, if you will?
Todd Komarnicki:
The place that you're in is a trampoline. It's not quicksand. That you will bounce back. It may be just an inch a day. It may be sudden, six feet and you see daylight, but you will bounce back. You are not disappearing. You are becoming the more beautiful, brave, strong, pure, true human that Jesus is calling you to be.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject's been spoken, and our guest today, Todd Komarnicki, has indeed spoken that last word.
So, Warwick, we just got done with a very interesting, very emotional moving conversation with Todd Komarnicki, who is a Hollywood hyphenate, writer, director, producer. And he produced, and we talked about this too, the movie Bonhoeffer. So, there's a lot of stuff to talk about. But if you could pick, well, not if you could pick, let's pick one or two really high points that folks can look for in this episode. Good takeaways from this episode from Todd's story and from the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer that he tells in his movie.
Warwick Fairfax:
What I love about Todd is he was so authentic and so vulnerable. We talked a lot about faith and darkness, and he really did have a couple of years or so of a dark night of the soul. He grew up in a family of faith, but I guess it really, in his words, wasn't anchored. When he talks about times when he could have ended his life, and there were people that basically stood up for him and loved him enough, including a friend in college and his parents that showed him such love, it is incredible. And when I think about his story, he talks about something that's very counterintuitive, and we hear that from some guests we've had on the podcast. It's almost the blessing of crucibles. You don't run away from them, you run towards them, and that as we'll discuss, is really the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, whose movie he made. But just that notion that often running away from crucibles and pain just causes more pain.
But what are the lessons? What can I learn? And I think the person he is with so much great compassion and love and wisdom came of the lessons he learned from his crucible. I love how he talks about God, about being like the mother dog picking up the puppy by the scruff of its neck, and how the puppies have just more folds in their fur. And so, you might think, I want to go a different way, but from his perspective, that God Kind of takes you kind of where he wants to. And I think he was always meant to write, direct and produce a movie about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Listen to the podcast and watch it for the fuller story, but a man who grew up in Germany and was a Lutheran pastor in the '30s as Adolf Hitler was rising to power. And really, he spoke truth to power when a lot of the Lutheran churches sold out the Hitler and it became the Reich's church.
And ultimately, he died for his faith. It's just his courage. This was not cheap grace. There's a book that Bonhoeffer wrote, The Craft of Discipleship. This was really dying for his belief. So, just the message of the Bonhoeffer movie and life story is standing up for what you believe in, not running away from what you feel God's call or some higher powers call on your life. Not running away from your crucible, but running towards it. Both Todd and Bonhoeffer, they ran towards their crucible. And we talk a lot on this podcast about the crucibles don't happen to you, they happen for you. What are the lessons we can learn from our worst day? How can that equip us to really inspire, love and help others? And I think that's what Todd does in his movies, and that's what Dietrich Bonhoeffer did in his life.
Gary Schneeberger:
Before we go, Warwick and I have a couple of favors to ask you. One, if you've enjoyed this on your favorite podcast app, this discussion, we ask you to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We do them every week. Same thing, if you're watching us on YouTube, leave a comment, subscribe to the YouTube channel for Beyond the Crucible. And again, you will not miss any episodes because they come on video every week as well. So, until the next time we're together, remember this, and if it didn't come through in this conversation, I don't know where it's going to come through in any conversation. We know your crucibles are hard. We know crucible experiences can rattle your world. But we also know this. We know it's not the end of your story. What's happened to you didn't really happen to you. If you dive into it, it happened for you and you can turn it around, and it can help you guide yourself down a path to a vision that will lead to the most rewarding destination you can arrive at. And that destination is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit BeyondTheCrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Applying the Actionable Truths 6: Vision
A great vision, we discuss this week in the sixth episode of our series within the show on the Beyond the Crucible Roadmap and its actionable truths, is one which seems so real you can almost feel it and touch it. You have this overwhelming desire to make that vision a reality.
This vision may be a combination of lessons you’ve learned from your crucible. It will typically involve people you want to help. Either way, a great vision is one that is other-focused, that in some way will help the world to be a better place.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. To truly move forward, you've got to have a vision that you're off-the-charts passionate about, that in some ways is a life-affirming vision, which we call a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And what'sinteresting is that as we'll find and discuss more, that for many of our guests, and us, that vision may well come out of The Crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
A great vision we discussed this week in the sixth episode of our series within the show on Beyond the Crucible Roadmap and its actionable truths is one so real you can almost feel it and touch it. You have this overwhelming desire to make that vision a reality. This vision may be a combination of lessons you've learned from your Crucible. It will typically involve people you want to help. But either way, a great vision is one that is other-focused, that in some way will help the world to be a better place.
Welcome friends, to another episode of Beyond The Crucible, and it's special, another episode of Beyond the Crucible, because it is another episode in what we're calling the series within the show on the actionable truths of the brand. And let me set the stage like I always do when we do this. This is our refreshed way. It's refreshed, not entirely new, on how we help you get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity. It's what we've named the Beyond the Crucible roadmap as I said. We describe it like this, and I'm going to read it right here from my sheet, because I always want to make sure I get it exactly right. We describe it as this, "how we help you turn your worst day into your greatest opportunity. We provide the essential actionable truths to inspire hope, enable and equip you to write your own life-affirming story."
If that sounds like fun, keep listening and watching because we think it is. The roadmap has been built, just so you know, from our proprietary statistically valid research into how people experience crucibles, and what we've learned from guests on this very podcast and from our experience about what it takes to move from trial to triumph after a crucible. And the most revolutionary news in this whole process for us has been finding what we call the actionable truths of the brand, as I said earlier. To pass these life-changing truths along to you, our listeners and viewers, we're going to do something similar to what we did last year with our series within the show, and we've been doing that. Once a month, we have been taking time to focus on the roadmap, on the actionable truths. And we're doing it for 10 times this year.
And you may realize right now we're a month that's six months into the year. Wait, we're going to ... We're going to take a break for a while. We're taking the summer hiatus. We're going to have a summer series that's going to come up. We're not going to tell you what it is yet. Keep listening, because we'll explain what it is. You're going to like it. But we will be back, just so you know after this episode with the next version or the next episode in the Actionable Truths series within a show on September 23rd. Okay? So you don't have to wait that long, but that's when we're going to be back doing it after we finish this one.
But stay tuned, because you're going to want to hear in the weeks to come what our summer series is about. Warwick and I are very, very, very excited about it. So what we have going on right now, Warwick ... I've asked you this every single time we've done an episode on the actionable truths. And by now I think you could turn your back to the camera and just recite it like that, because so good at it. But to level set us in our discussion of the sixth of these truths, let me ask you this, why actionable truths? What do we mean by that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Beyond the Crucible, our focus is on how we get beyond our worst day to lead a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And so we have now what we call Beyond the Crucible roadmap, how you go from trial or crucible to triumph, and that is a life of significance. And we've found that there are 10 actionable truths, 10 catalysts that help you move along your journey from your worst day, to where you're living your life-affirming vision, you're thriving. It feels like this is where you're meant to be. You're living out some higher purpose, maybe even God's purpose. You feel like you're triumphing and you're truly living your life for significance. So these actionable truths have always been implicit in our thinking, and they're actually chapters in many, if not most cases, in my book, Crucible Leadership.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's pretty good symmetry, and we didn't plan it that way, folks. That's not the way that we planned it, that's the way it came out through the research. This is how those things fall together. So Warwick is like a human computer. No. I'm kidding, right? He's the creator of the branch, so it makes sense, right, his book would then dovetail nicely with what we're talking about here? And I'll ask you one more question before we get going. And that's this, individually not going through each one, but each one of these actionable truths helps us move beyond setback to significance. How do they do that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. These actionable truths, think of them as accelerators or even enablers to help us move from a crucible or our trial to a life of significance or triumph. And you could absolutely make the case that without these actionable truths that you'd go nowhere. You'd be stuck in the pit, stuck in trial, your worst day. It's almost like rocket fuel that just helps the engine move forward. I think earlier you mentioned, what's that special additive in Fast and the Furious that enables it to go, those cars, incredible speeds?
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, NOS. Yeah, nitrous oxide. NOS. Yep.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So in a sense you could think of these actionable truths as nitrous oxide, that they really turbocharge your journey back. Obviously in Fast and the Furious, you should use this with care. You probably need a little less care using these actionable truths, but you get the idea. They turbocharge you to get from your worst day to, in a sense, your best day, when you're a triumphing and leading a life to significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And I've got to ask you one more question on the tail end of that, because I've said this a few times in the intros to these episodes. We didn't arrive at the name "actionable truths" for this, just like that. A lot of names for things that we do come to us very quickly. This one took a little bit of back and forth and thinking through it. And I'll raise my hand and say, I don't know that I was the greatest fan of it at first. But the more that we've done it and the more that we've seen it play out in our conversations, more feedback we've gotten on it, it really is a perfect term, actionable truths. Why do you think that is? What makes this idea of something that's truthful, but also must be acted on ... Why is that so critical to bouncing back from a crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. That's a great question. A truth can be useful, but a truth that is not lived out isn't helpful. And we've talked about this actually in earlier podcast in the series, when we talk about faith, in other words, whatever belief and value system you have? That's helpful, but faith, your beliefs and values that are not lived out is not really accomplishing much, if anything. It really needs to be lived out, which is what we earlier described as character. Faith, beliefs and values lived out. So truths are helpful, these truths that we've gone over, whether it's authenticity, faith, character, self-reflection, a number of ones we've discussed, those are helpful. But those truths like self-reflection, Oh, I think I need to self-reflect about my crucible. I think that's a good idea. Maybe tomorrow, maybe next month.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, believing that self-reflection is important, but not doing it, is not going to help you at all get out of the pit. You have to get out of the pit. You have to get beyond your worst day. And so truths are only meaningful if they're actionable. And obviously you can act on many things, but if you're acting on things that aren't your truth, you're going to be running around in circles, not going anywhere. But you'll be moving rapidly, but maybe in circles. Well, that doesn't get you out of the pit, maybe you dig yourself in deeper. You just burrow deeper and deeper, because you keep moving, spiraling down. So it's the combination of the two actionable and truths that really gives this whole concept path that enables it to really turbocharge you and get beyond your worst day.
Gary Schneeberger:
And so far, folks, again, to level set where we've been, we've talked about the parts of the roadmap. The first one is your trial, which is your crucible. The second one is processing. How do you process through it? Now, we're moving to the third part. And Scott, are you there? I'm going to need you to give me a drum roll before I say where we're at on the roadmap now. So here we go. Excellent, very well done. We are at the vision part of the roadmap. And we're going to talk first in the vision part of the roadmap about vision. And I want to ask you this, Warwick, why is vision such a critical sixth step after a crucible to begin our journey, truly to begin our journey of getting that fast and furious roadster moving, to move beyond to recover from our crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. We're at a point where we're ready to move forward. It is time to move forward. We've been through a crucible. We've reflected on what happened and why. We've decided to be authentic, not be asked, not be some fake version, some person with a mask, but the true authentic self that we are. We've decided to dig down deep into our beliefs and values, our faith. And we've also decided that we're not just going to have those beliefs and values on a bumper sticker, or on a plaque hanging on a wall. We're actually going to live these beliefs and values out day to day, which is what we call character. So these are all good points to get us where we are now. But to truly move forward, you've got to have a vision that you're off-the-charts passionate about, that in some ways is a life-affirming vision, which we call a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.
And what's interesting is that as we'll find and discuss more, that for many of our guests, and us, that vision may well come out of the crucible. But wherever it comes from, it's a vision that you've got to be off-the-charts passionate about. That's got to be focused on others in some sense. One definition I've come across about vision, is vision is a present picture of a future reality. So a great vision is one that seems so real that you can almost feel it, touch it, maybe even smell it, like it just feels so real that it seems more than a vision. It seems reality. And you have this overwhelming desire to make this vision a reality. It feels like a calling, maybe a holy calling, a sacred calling, a sacred mission. And this vision may be a combination of lessons you've learned from your crucible.
It will typically involve people you want to help. It could be people like you who went through similar crucibles, or it could be to help people avoid the crucibles that you went through. You might say, "Gosh, what I went through is horrific. If I can forewarn or forearm people to avoid some of the mistakes that I went through, at least in some senses," that can be helpful. So either way, this great vision that's on your heart is got to be other-focused in some way to make the world a better place. One of the things we often say too, at Beyond the Crucible, it's not the size of the vision that's really most important. And certainly we can get intimidated looking at other people's vision. Maybe it's people we've read about in the media, seen in documentaries.
Maybe it's even our buddies or friends in our neighborhood, and we might feel so less than. And so yes, it could be some global vision to bring clean drinking water to developing nations. But it could also mean helping to clean up your neighborhood park or maybe setting up a soup kitchen in your city. The size of the vision isn't so important. What matters is, is this vision important to you? Do you feel like it's some holy or sacred calling that you feel absolutely called to pursue? That kind of vision is going to last, if you feel like it's almost some sacred calling that you're called and almost driven to accomplishing.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's the ability to see beyond what you can see, I think is a good way to define it. And I say that, because we've come to the part and every episode when I go to Webster's 1828, the very first dictionary that our friend Noah Webster created. And this is the first time Warwick that Noah Webster's definition isn't going to help us at all, because Noah Webster's first definition of vision is this, actual sight. Thank you, Noah. There are several other ones in there that pretty much talk about the same thing. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to go to our definition that we used in our internal document about what we discovered in the research on the actionable truths, on the road map, and you used the first part of it.
But our definition of vision in this context, in the road map, is a sacred calling, you use that, that summons you to a mission beyond yourself. That seems to me to be a perfect place to continue talking about this subject. There are three stages in our research work, as you know, and our research is qualitative and quantitative. And there are three things that that research has shown us about how people experience this section of the roadmap. And the first one is this, experimenting with new conditions, trials and first failures. How do we do this?
Warwick Fairfax:
So irrespective of the size of the vision, when you're in a pit of despair, any kind of vision seems like Mount Olympus or Mount Everest. It just seems impossible at that point, no matter how big or small, others may look at it or you may look at it. So yeah. Launching it into a new vision absolutely can seem overwhelming. We feel like hiding under the covers, because this vision, it might seem too hard, too intimidating, too big for us to accomplish. Typically, when you've suffered your worst day, your sense of self-confidence is zero. Whether it's something that was done to you or mistakes you made, your feeling of self-worth seems to be non-existent, so you don't really have any reservoirs of confidence or pretty much anything else to draw upon.
So it is tough, so any vision is going to seem almost impossible. So the key thing is to break down that vision into stages and small steps. And we may not know as we'll get into quite what that vision is going to be. But you think of what's one small step forward that I can take to begin that journey to accomplish your vision? Just what one positive step. You might not have it all figured out, but you might have this sixth sense, this gut instinct, "You know what? I feel like this is something maybe I could do, and what's one small step that I can take?" That's the key. Don't think of the whole vision. And it could be a microscopic, baby step to you, but what's one small step you can take to move forward?
Gary Schneeberger:
It's the same way that you eat an elephant, right? One bite at a time.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
The second point that our research shows us that people go through, is growth and new skills, preparing for major change. Again, how is that accomplished in real life as you're bouncing back from a crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
So in addition to taking baby steps forward, we need to assess what we need to do to bring this vision to reality. And that starts with looking internally. We've got to assess our skills and abilities and to assess to what degree do we have those skills and abilities to make this vision real? If we feel like there's not one area of our skills and abilities that looking at it dispassionately and logically, that really can help bring this vision to reality, it may not be no, but it may be caution. Think very carefully, because it's going to be so much harder if you bring nothing to the party, frankly.
So that's obviously helpful, and we need to assess if we don't have those skills and abilities, is this a mission, a vision that we want to devote our life to? Count the cost before launching into a vision? And so having looked internally, then we need to look externally. And typically bringing a vision to reality is a team sport. Few visions, can you do it alone. And so the smart person asks themselves, "Okay. I have certain skills and abilities, but I don't have all the skills and abilities needed to make this vision a reality." So we need to ask for help from others. What we call a team of fellow travelers. People have skills and abilities that we might not have.
Now, typically, when we're trying to bring this vision to reality, we're going to encounter obstacles, difficulties. Life is not Disney World, typically there are challenges with visions that we're trying to make become reality. So that's normal, and we shouldn't be afraid of this. When we have failures and setbacks without vision, we need to learn from them and assess them. Okay, what does this mean? Do we need to tweak our vision? Change it? Do we need to bring different people on board? What do we need to do? So obstacles will happen, but look at them as opportunities. Okay, so what does this say about our vision and where we're going? Do we need to change direction a bit? But that's inevitable, that will happen. As you move on from baby steps and it starts to grow, you're definitely going to encounter obstacles. That's just life.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's interesting, because it's important, isn't it, in this step as you're trying out new things, as you're taking baby steps and you're making those steps a little bit bigger, and you're making them more one after the other ... It's important to not see these setbacks as true crucibles, right? They're setbacks, they're normal growth mile-markers as you're moving forward. It can be easy, but we have to fight that urge or that feeling that these are going to crush us. We have to weather them and learn from them. That's fair, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Most athletes will tell you they learn pretty much nothing of very little about matches they've won, games they've won. But they learn a lot from failure. They learn a lot from when they've fallen short. Okay, what if it's tennis? What stroke do I need to work on? If it's football, okay, maybe I've got the wrong players, or maybe the game plan wasn't the best. Maybe we need to change it up. There's all sorts of lessons that failure can teach us. And so when we face obstacles and we feel like things aren't going the way that we hoped, we need to just assess that. And sometimes those challenges can come because we're growing and expanding more than we thought we would perhaps.
And so we need to assess, okay, so maybe this vision, this organization, maybe this company that we've started, it's getting to a point that maybe we all don't have the skills and abilities that we need now. Maybe some of our fellow travelers, some of our team members, maybe they were helpful at one stage, but maybe we need to supplement them with folks that have different skills. So how do we respond? How do we learn from these challenges and opportunities? As I said, maybe we need to tweak what we do and change.
And one of the other things I think we need to consider, and most organizations that start with the visionary founder, which is many, if not almost all, they typically run into this problem in which you might have the skills and abilities to start an organization, a nonprofit or a for-profit company. Maybe you don't have the general manager skills to take the company to the next level. And that's where often founders will just grip tightly onto that vision and they won't let go. "Hey, I started it in my garage and this is my deal and everybody works for me. I don't need help. Not senior level help. I've got the vision. Everybody else is here meant to implement. I don't need strategic advice. I got this."
That's normal and understandable, but it's really not helpful. And so what you might need to do, and many if not most organizations do this, you might need to bring on a general manager or a CEO, with you remaining as the founder and the visionary. And obviously this could end up being large, even if it's a small organization, a small nonprofit, you'll need people with administrative managerial skills, people that know how to hire the right people, even recruit the right volunteers. That requires at any level some degree of managerial and organizational ability, as well as an ability to relate to others. Some people, they aren't great entrepreneurs, but they don't always know how to motivate a team.
That's not always in their skillset. So that's where you've got to make sure you've got the right people on board, bring a general manager or CEO, or depending on what level your organization is at, and you might even be faced with an even harder decision. You might be faced with a decision that this vision has grown beyond this. Maybe we need to hand this vision over to other people. These are all things that you need to think about when you're at the stage when the vision is growing. It could be something big and big can mean different things, but you feel like it's really taken off. You need to be able to get the right people on board, make sure you are in the right lane and get off the bus if you think you're holding the vision back. That requires incredible self-reflection and incredible maturity that is not easy to have.
But if you really care about your vision, these are questions you really need to ask yourself. And maybe ask some close friends, maybe some board members, team members, those tough questions. "Am I in my right lane? Do I need to take a bit of a backseat? Maybe be founder emeritus or whatever, so I need to bring other people on?" You really need to ask these tough questions, which if it's not about you, you'll ask. If it's all about you, then you probably won't ask that. So lot of self-reflection is required when you're trying to bring a vision to reality.
Gary Schneeberger:
Indeed. Excellent points. That must be why you're the founder of Beyond The Crucible, is my guess. And the third point that the research told us is that, and it's a big one, it's preparing for big change, grand trial, revelation and insight. And you were pretty excited about all of this, and you might've jumped the line a little bit on that, Warwick. Anything else you want to add?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I was a bit too passionate about the vision. Maybe off-the-charts passionate about helping listeners and viewers figure out their vision, bring it to reality, that I went forward a bit too fast. But yeah, I think in summary about this, especially as that vision starts taking off, there will be challenges. Gosh, we don't have enough people. Maybe we don't have enough funding for this nonprofit. The needs in our town is so big and people love what we have, whether it's our soup kitchen or whatever it is. And we just don't want to turn people away that have need or that's a good problem to have, obviously, if people love what you do. And you just got to see those challenges as opportunities. Okay, great. We need more people. We need to raise funding. We need to inspire some donors to give, just maybe give them a picture of just what we're doing.
And those are all opportunities. And yeah, you've got to assess. "Okay, let's make sure I'm in the right lane and bring other people on board to help take it to the next level." But really the key with big change is you've got to make sure it's not all about you, just check your ego at the door. And if you feel like, "The sole reason I'm doing this is to give my ego some strokes, you just need to leave." You got to make it ... It's not about you.
And so just doing internal daily reflection from a faith-based point of view, scripture meditation I've found helps me. You've got to keep yourself anchored in your beliefs and values, because if you're not careful, it can start out with good intentions, but it can morph into, "it's all about me. It's all about everybody praising, Ian. Look how wonderful I am." So as the vision gets bigger and we get more plaudits and praise from people, that's where challenges can really crop up. You've got to make sure it's not about you and it's about helping others. So keep your ego in check and be wary. As the vision grows, it's almost inevitable that your ego will be tempted. So just watch when that happens and take steps to make sure that you keep your ego in check.
Gary Schneeberger:
Interesting that you just talked a little bit about when a vision can get a little out of control, because about to segue into my favorite part of this show. And I've just determined while we were sitting here Warwick, that it would be nice to get theme music for this part of the show. Maybe we should ask Scott to see if he can find some theme music that we could play, not in this episode, but maybe in future episodes. Maybe there's some good theme music, because what we're going to talk about now, folks, is what I like to call taking a look at Patience Zero, the founder of Beyond the Crucible, our host who lived all of this stuff before he began to write about it, and then talk about it on the podcast.
And Warwick, let me ask you this. Talk about your journey, because it's a very interesting journey and it touches on some of the things that you talked about. Not so much about your ego taking over, but about following a vision that wasn't yours. Talk about your journey with vision and how you were able to move beyond your crucible that was kind of ... Not kind of, was wrapped up in a vision, if not your vision.
Warwick Fairfax:
My story, maybe it's not different, it feels a bit different in that I grew up with a ready-made, pre-packaged vision, if you will. I didn't have to think about, "Gee, what vision did I want to devote my life to?" I was born into a vision, born into a noble vision, actually. So I grew up in this 150-year-old family media business in Australia. And the vision I grew up in, it was not a small vision. It was a massive one. This was a media company that was founded by my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax in 1841. By the time I was growing up, it grew to become a very large media company with newspapers, TV stations, radio stations, magazines, newsprint mills. It had the Sydney Morning Herald, The Age in Melbourne, the Australian Financial Review. This was the equivalent in Australia of the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's important to know it was equivalent to when they were at their heyday, right? Because newspapers, and even in the US right now, are not at their heyday. But, these are the three biggest papers in three big areas that were the biggest in the United States during their heyday. So that's what you're talking about-
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
... to compare apples to apples.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Very well said. So back in the '80s, '70s, '80s, they used to talk about the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age in Melbourne as the rivers of gold. They Were incredibly profitable, mainly through classified ads, which could be job ads, real estate. This is all pre-internet. So you wanted to find a job, you wanted to find a house, you went to the paper. You pulled up your local paper and circled places to rent or jobs. And you called them up and no serving internet didn't exist. So we live in a different era now, but back then they were incredibly profitable. And so I was seen by my parents as the heir apparent of this very large organization.
And being the dutiful son ... It's funny, I often use this analogy, this biblical analogy, the parable of the prodigal son. I wasn't so much the prodigal. I was the quote, unquote, "good son" that stayed at home and worked hard. And so I got good grades in school. I did my undergrad degree at Oxford University like my dad and some other relatives before me. I received my MBA from Harvard Business School. It was all to make sure I had the skills and abilities that was needed to fill my future role. For instance, there were various proposals by management for a capital raising that my parents thought didn't make a whole lot of sense. So it's like, "Okay. I need to learn about finance, so that if and when I'm in this position of control and influence, I'll be able to push back if management comes up with some harebrained capital raising scheme that I don't think makes sense."
That was why I needed to have some knowledge of finance. In fact, after I went to Oxford and before I went to Harvard Business School, I worked on Wall Street at Chase Manhattan Bank. It was all part of the plan. It wasn't about, what did I want to do. It wasn't about, was I interested in finance? Irrelevant questions. So it's like, what skills and abilities do I need? And unfortunately, in a sense, I have very high perseverance and high dedication, which ... Dedication and perseverance are not bad in and of themselves. But those two together, dedication and perseverance, it's like, "Okay. What do I need to do? And I'll just work very hard to make sure I have those skills and abilities."
And so this was all to help perpetuate and preserve the vision of the founder, my great, great grandfather, John Fairfax. It was his vision. He was a great business person. And as I've read in the last few years, this book by Stuart Johnson that should come out in the next few months, who as a PhD and a person of faith, wrote a book about John Fairfax. He was a person of great faith, great husband, great father, elder at his church. When he died, his employees loved him so much, they said, "We've lost a kind and valued friend." There were no worker rights laws in the 1800s in Australia or pretty much anywhere else. So this was a noble vision, but this wasn't my vision. And in fact, I'm not even sure it was my father's vision. We both inherited it. But I was committed to doing my duty and to preserving the vision, and what a noble vision it was of my great-great-grandfather.
We tried to be an independent paper in which we weren't beholden to any party. The original motto of the Sydney Morning Herald was, "May Whigs call me Tory and May Tory call me Whig," which in modern language means, "May Liberal call me Conservative, may Conservative call me Liberal." And that was really the ethos of the company. So if you'd asked me back then in the '70s and '80s as I was growing up, so to speak, how committed was I to the vision, I would say 100%. I would say I was off-the-charts passionate to that vision. It was an important vision. How could you be against preserving theideals of the founder and having quality in newspapers, quality media That served the nation of Australia? That's a pretty big vision. That's an important vision. How can you say that's a worthless vision? It's not. It was a very worthwhile vision.
And at the time in the '80s, I mentioned to a relative that this vision was so important to me that it was burning a hole in my heart. If you have a vision that's burning a hole in your heart, it would seem like you're pretty much off-the-charts passionate about it. How can that be wrong? How can that be bad? How can preserving a newspaper company, a media company, with the ideals of the founder, how can that be wrong? It feels so right. So the problem as I mentioned, is it wasn't my vision.
So in early 1987, my dad died. Early that year he was in his late eighties. I was a child of his third marriage. And so I launched this $2.25 billion takeover, essentially to bring the vision of the company back, the ideals of the founder, and to have the company well run. Three years later, with too much debt and a recession that hit Australia in 1990, we had to file for bankruptcy. So what's interesting is once I gained control of the company in late 1987, I knew subconsciously there was a problem. While I had the high perseverance to make the takeover work, the joy and the passion when not there. Subconsciously, I didn't want it to be there.
Gary Schneeberger:
Let me stop you there just for a second. We have a phrase that we talk about, and you've actually spoken about this as you've told your story. We have a phrase that we talk about the elevator ride, which really shines a spotlight on what you're talking about right here of not having a passion for this vision. Explain a little bit what that elevator ride was, and how it pinpoints how uncomfortable you were, even though you were following this thing that you thought you needed to follow.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary. That was a key moment in the story. By late 1987 we'd been able to obtain enough shares to take control of the company. The way you physically get control of a company is through a change in the board of directors. So here I was, I hadn't been in the headquarters of the company for a while in these months that we were trying to get enough shares to finalize the takeover. So I went into the headquarters of John Fairfax Limited, which was headquartered in a part of Sydney called Broadway. You can't make this up. And so I took the elevator up and it was early in the morning. And on that elevator, there were other staff members, journalists, and I remember feeling so uncomfortable. Everybody knew who I was. My face had been in the papers and on TV for months, and I didn't want to talk to them. I'm sure they didn't know what to say to me. Was one of the longest elevator rides of my life.
Got off the elevator, walked into this almost like mahogany-paneled boardroom with paintings of my ancestors from my dad all the way back to my great, great grandfather, John Fairfax. There was my new board on one side of the table, there was the old board on the other side of the table, including a couple of family members of mine. And they were all polite and wished me and my team well and handed over control. But I remember thinking as I looked up at those paintings, "They must've been wondering, what is this26-year-old kid doing?", as I then was. That was the age I was at the time, "Does he know what he's doing?" and in that moment, in subsequent moments, I was all about trying to preserve the company. We had to do numerous refinancing, because we had too much debt from the beginning. Other family members sold out, didn't want to be in a company controlled by 26-year-old, which is understandable. And the October '87 stock market crash at our asset sales. So we were in trouble from pretty much day one that we took control at the end of 1987.
So we're doing new refinancings. I brought on a chief executive that increased operating profits 80%, which showed the company wasn't being as well run as it could have, but it was just, we were in dire straits from day one. And so we were in survival mode, but it was pretty clear that I didn't want to be there. I pretty much never went down to where the journalists were a few floors below and walked around and said hello to people, because I felt like, "I don't belong here."
I felt shy, out of my depth. By that point it was subconsciously clear that this wasn't my vision and I so didn't want to be there. It was just really awful. Yes, I brought in new management, but it was so clear that I didn't want to be there. But it's too late, I'd launched this takeover, and I'm not one fortunately or unfortunately to give up, and so I just kept going and trying to make it work. But the debt was so huge that despite what the new chief executive did, it did a phenomenal job. It was just too much debt and by late 1990, we had to file for bankruptcy.
So this whole takeover was a huge and costly lesson, obviously financially, but money has never really been a huge motivator for me. It was incredibly costly, certainly emotionally, spiritually, and it was clear that this is not my vision. So I had to ask myself, how would I move beyond this crucible? How would I ever get beyond it? I wasn't asking myself, "Well, what's a new vision for my life?" I was in survival mode. I was like, "How do I get out of this pit? How do I move forward? What do I do with my life?" People often grow up thinking, "Gosh." when you're a young kid, it's like, "Do I want to be a fireman? An astronaut," or whatever, "an NFL player, an NBA basketball player?" [inaudible 00:40:21] And then eventually-
Gary Schneeberger:
No baseball for me, just so you know. Baseball [inaudible 00:40:26]
Warwick Fairfax:
It's like, "Okay, maybe I'm going to be an accountant, journalist," whatever it ends up being. But I never had those thoughts, they were irrelevant. So I had to think at age 30, which I was at the time the company went under, "Well, now what do I do?" And so it was really just baby steps. I wasn't really thinking so much about, "What vision should I devote my life to?" It's, "I need to get a job." I had some funds fortunately, but I need to get a job financially just for my own sense of self and sense of self-worth. So I got a temporary job as a financial analyst for an aviation services company in Maryland where we lived. My wife's from America. And so after the company went under, I felt like we needed to move somewhere other than Australia where I was so well known.
So this temporary job turned into a permanent job, where I worked for a number of years. And in 2003, there was a real turning point in my life. One of the things that was key to me bouncing back from my failed takeover, as I've mentioned in other podcasts in the series and elsewhere is faith. And my faith in Christ is hugely important to me. So in 2003, I felt like God telling me that I was playing small. And it's not so much that what I was doing was beneath me, but that I wasn't using all my skills and abilities for his purposes, for the kingdom, from a spiritual perspective. So I went to a woman that was an expert in mid-career assessments, and she was an executive coach herself, and she said that I had an ideal profile to be an executive coach. So I looked into that, I became a certified international coach, federation coach, and I began to find my leadership voice. If you'd asked me in the early '90s, do I have a leadership voice, I would've said I couldn't lead my way out of a paper bag.
Gary Schneeberger:
I want to stop you there. I've never asked you this question, and this is a perfect point to ask you, because you just walked us through the emotional ... You used the words, "it was emotionally and financially devastating, the failure of the takeover." What did that feel like when you found your leadership voice? I don't think I've ever asked you that question. What was that like? Because people who are hearing this, they're bouncing back from a crucible. They're trying to cast a vision, and you just got the first little bits of fairy dust that indicated that there is a vision there. What did that feel like, if you can remember that moment?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's a good question. I spent a few years after 2003 taking courses, getting training to be a certified international coach federation coach. And so I would coach people both within my church and people I knew. And what I realized is I have some fair, if not good, degree of asking questions. I didn't know that at the time. Now, I had a lot of management and leadership experience, obviously a lot of management leadership failure if you will. With the Harvard MBA and working in Wall Street, I knew a fair amount about organizations and the pitfalls and the challenges, certainly more than enough to ask good questions. And so I would ask a question and they'd say, "That is a great point." It's like, "What do you mean a great point? I'm just asking a question. How can that be a great point?"
It might be as simple, but yet in some ways profound as saying, "So you've mentioned to a client all these things you want to do. I think from my perspective, devoted trying to do 15 things at once is typically not a good strategy. It's my philosophy, pick two or three and then focus on that at the moment." And so a great point. I'd say, "So what two or three things do you want to focus on?" So questions like that that aren't rocket science, but they're very helpful. And so just by the questions I was asking people saw that I had leadership ability. These were drops of grace to a dying man in the desert, like an oasis. And it was because of those questions, it was because of the people I was coaching that directly led to me being an elder at my church, which is a non-denominational, evangelical church, and being on the board of my kids' school, which is a Christian school.
It was because of the relationships with people I was coaching that people said, "Hey, I know this guy Warwick Fairfax, it'd be a great person to be on the board of our school, Annapolis Area Christian School." Or, "Warwick would be a good elder at our church," Bay Area Community Church in Annapolis, Maryland. But it was through coaching and people seeing something within me as somebody that had leadership advice. It was the beginnings of what I would come to see as my skill set, which is as we say on this podcast, is to be a reflective advisor. That was my skill set, that is my strength. But that came out of being an executive coach. That was a key step on the journey to me discovering my innate skills, the innate passion that I had to help people's vision become reality, to help people ... And that's a lot of the things I coached on was about vision, helping people's vision become reality. I was off-the-charts passionate about that, ironically. That's part of what I love to do, being a reflective advisor.
So being an executive coach and then being on an elder at my church on this board of my kids' school. The next step was in 2008 when the pastor of our church asked me to give a talk in church. And he was giving a sermon on the life of David who had been persecuted by King Saul. He was hiding in the cave of the Dulem, who was definitely a righteous person, falsely persecuted. He wanted a 10-minute sermon illustration. I said, "Well, look Greg. Greg St. Cyr, the lead pastor by church. "I don't feel like I was a righteous person falsely persecuted. I brought many of the troubles on myself. But fine, I'll do what I can."
I certainly didn't think back then of myself as Mr. Public Speaker. I'm more of a shy, reserved person by personality. So anyway, I gave some thoughts, and given it's a church, I thought that maybe lessons God had taught me. What was amazing is that weeks and months after people came up to me and said, "Warwick, what you said really helped me." And I thought to myself, "Well, how many former media moguls are there in the congregation?" It's like if you had a former media mogul self-help group, it'd be self-help group of one. "My name is Warwick. I've lost $2 billion in a media company." "Oh. Thank you, Warwick."
Gary Schneeberger:
You have to talk to yourself to make that happen.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I've never met anybody like me in that sense, who made the mistakes or gone through what I've gone through. Anyway, so the fact that people said what I said could help them, that led me to writing my book, Crucible Leadership, Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance. That book then led to speaking, writing blogs, posting on social media, thoughts about related to Beyond The Crucible, and also led me to starting this podcast with you, Gary, Beyond The Crucible. That all happened from that moment in 2008. And what I love about what I do now is that it truly is my vision. I have a crystal clear vision that I'm off-the-charts passionate about to help people bounce back from their worst day to lead a life of significance. That's what we do here. And it's my vision, it's not a vision I inherited. And I just love having a team of people, a team of fellow travelers, including yourself, that I believe are all off-the-charts passionate about this vision that we're working, co-laboring together.
We have a fantastic team, and I feel blessed. Yes, you could say I founded it, but I believe this is our vision. I don't look at it as my vision. It's our vision. Yes, it's my vision, but it's beyond my vision, it's our vision. Faith is important to me. Every day I read scripture, I meditate through scripture memory. I want to say, "Lord, this is about you. This is about accomplishing your vision. It's not about me." I really try to keep my ego in check, which is a daily thing that all of us should spent time on that inner work. So I feel blessed, I'm off-the-charts passionate about this vision, and it's my vision. It's not somebody else's vision that I inherited, so I'm blessed. But it was a long journey to get here, it was not easy.
Gary Schneeberger:
And what's interesting about you saying that, because I just wrote a note in the side of my paper here ... Because you talked about at the beginning, and the research told us this at the beginning, that it's take small steps, take baby steps. And it occurs to me your story is the truth that all of us can wrap our arms around, and that's this. Small steps can lead to a lifelong journey, right? When you string those small steps together, suddenly your miles and miles, years and years, experiences and experiences down the road to that life of significance that you talk about. And I think that's just a beautiful example of what Beyond the Crucible stands for and what you've lived through to teach through Beyond the Crucible.
Warwick Fairfax:
So well said, Gary. I think one of the lessons is that you can never really know where your life is going to go and what one small step will lead to. In my case, I didn't even have the inklings of a vision when ... One part of the story I didn't mention I was sending out resumes. I was even dumbing my resume down. Somehow it seemed it's not good to-
Gary Schneeberger:
I think you're in a group of one on that front too. I think you're in a group of one on that front too.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's not good to inflate it, but somehow dumbing it down, there might not have been any mention of launching $2.25 billion takeover. At one point my title was Proprietor, is what they called me. Proprietor, John Fairfax Limited, or Fairfax Media Holdings, whatever it was called post takeover. But eventually that sending out resumes got nowhere. Even though I knew I was analytical, I knew there were things I could do, strategic planning, marketing strategy, but I couldn't get anywhere. So I went to a temp agency that found temporary jobs for financial analysts and accountants, and so they had me do something on Excel. Well, back in the day with my Chase Manhattan back days in New York, I was pretty good on Excel. And so-
Gary Schneeberger:
[inaudible 00:51:26] You could excel on Excel.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. "You do really good on Excel, you really got this stuff." "Well, great." So they found me a temporary job at Head Sports, which makes skis and tennis rackets, and I think it's an Austrian company, and I believe somewhere in Europe. But their headquarters at the time was in Maryland, and so they needed help for a few months with some budget work and stuff. So, "Okay, I could do that." And so that from there, then I pivoted to being able to get this job at this aviation services company. But at the time, it felt like a very small step. Here I am with a Harvard MBA and Oxford degree, and I'm going to this temp agency to find any kind of a job doing something using my skills. So it was very humbling, had to put my ego in check. But could I have possibly have known that first temp job for Head Sports, or even before that walking in the door of this temp agency would lead to Beyond the Crucible?
How could I possibly know? What's the link? There are no logical links between that vision and the other like, "Oh. Well, I can see how getting that job at that temp agency gave you the skills to found Beyond the Crucible. That makes total sense." No, it doesn't make any sense at all, other than one step led to another, led to another, led to me becoming a coach. Now you're beginning to see some more logical steps that led to Beyond the Crucible. But the key lesson for all of us is, what's that next step? And it might be, "I need to get a job somewhere. I need to go to a temp agency." It's less about how good is that small step? But do something that you feel like is the next right step, even if you don't quite know how that's going to arrive at your dream job, your dream vision. Trust yourself. Trust the process. Trust your gut instinct. That I think is really critical, especially in those early days when you feel like you're in the pit of despair.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Folks, I do this a lot with guests on the show who have gone through a crucible and then they're the other side and they found their life in significance. I ask you to watch a clip or watch the show on YouTube, and just watch their faces as they talk about what they're doing now. And you can see that the moving beyond their crucible is reflected in their visage. Watch the host who I'm talking to right here, as he talks about what he's talked about. When he's talking about the failure of the takeover, he's not looking like the happiest guy in the room. But when he's finishing up just now what he just said, he's alive, he's happy. He's not just comfortable. He's in his own skin doing his own thing, and that's a beautiful thing to behold. He also is off-the-charts passionate about this subject, because you set a toe or two into the last question I'm going to ask. That's one of the reasons I stopped you, because I didn't want you to steal my last question.
Warwick Fairfax:
All good.
Gary Schneeberger:
Because you get too far off the charts of our run of show here. We've covered a lot of ground work. What's the one takeaway that you would offer our listeners and viewers from this episode, because there's a lot of good stuff here. Drill it down to one takeaway they can take with them.
Warwick Fairfax:
When you've been through a crucible, it's easy to feel that your life is over. You might feel worthless. That might be because you feel like what you've done is reprehensible, maybe unforgivable. Or maybe you feel like what was done to you is reprehensible or unforgivable. Either way it's very common when you're in the pit of despair just to feel worthless, to feel like there's no hope. You just want to hide. You just don't want anybody to look at you or see you. You may feel that you have absolutely nothing to offer anyone. You just want to escape, you want nobody to see you. And you might have no real clue about what your future vision could be. You might be, as I was in a sense, not maybe so much in terms of putting a roof over the head and food on the table, but you might feel like you're in survival mode.
It might be literally survival, or it may be emotionally, spiritually, you might feel just so down, just getting through the next day, getting through today feels like a Herculean achievement. So the key is really, and I touched on this, is to think about one small step. What one small step can I take? What's interesting is many of the guests, if not most, that we've had on this podcast have had that motion, what one small step. And I'd say most if not all of the guests on this podcast have said to themselves or found that they can use the lessons they've learned from their crucible to help others, either help others avoid what they went through or help others who have been through what they've been through often. And one of the things we say on this podcast is, "Your crucible didn't happen to you. It happened for you."
That's a key mindset. We talk about this a lot. How can this crucible have happened for you? What is the blessing that can come out of this crucible for others? You start asking yourself these profound questions, which you may not get answers to overnight. But, "What's one small baby step that I can take to really helping this crucible help others? What's the purpose amidst the pain?" to use that oft-used phrase. Because when you feel like, "I'm using what I went through to help others," that fuels energy, momentum drops of grace that gives you energy to actually come out of the covers that gives you energy not to hide. So those small steps as you feel like, especially steps when you're using what you've been through to help others. It might be just one person, a friend, a neighbor, a family member, a coworker. It's absolutely huge.
So just think about that one small step, because that one small step can lead to another and another that eventually will lead you to a vision that you're off-the-charts passionate about. One that truly leads to your unique life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And I can tell you so much joy and gratitude comes when you're using everything you are for some sacred calling that's beyond yourself, that in some way helps others. Irrespective of the size of that vision, how others look at it. It just gives you immense joy and gratitude when you're using what you've been through and everything that you are to help others. That's a vision worth living for. That's a vision that you will be off- the-charts passionate about. That's a vision worth giving your life to.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, if you're watching on YouTube, rewind the last minute or two of this conversation. If you need to wrap your arms around what off-the-charts passion looks like, you just saw Warwick do it. If you're listening on a podcast app, you heard it. Rewind it and play it, that's what it sounds like. And that's a perfect place to end our conversation this week, Warwick. Folks, this is just the sixth actionable truth that we'll be discussing in depth this year. Each month we'll take a look at a new one, except next month. We will be back, as I said at the start, on September 23rd. We have a summer series coming up. You'll like it. We'll tell you more about it soon. But on September 23rd, we'll pick back up and we'll pick back up with our seventh actionable truth. And Scott, hopefully you're still with us. You haven't nodded off or Warwick and I bored you. I hope that didn't happen, but I'm going to need maybe a louder drum than usual, because it has to hold folks until September.
But give me a drum roll and I'll reveal what we're going to talk about next time on September 23rd. Bravo, well done. We will talk about in depth what Warwick mentioned a bit today, and that is fellow travelers on September 23rd. So until the next time we're together, folks, please remember this. We want you to believe the truths that we talk about. But just as importantly, if not a tick, more importantly, we want you to act on them, because that's what's going to help you move along the roadmap from trial to triumph. And we will see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like "the Helper" or "the Individualist." Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
The Power of Humbler Leadership: Josh Wymore
Josh Wymore, our guest this week, was striking out as a leader as an assistant coach of a women’s softball team — until a more seasoned coach gave him counsel that changed the trajectory of not just his leadership, but his life. Wymore was trying to lead the ladies thinking he had to have, and provide, all the answers.
What the more experienced coach taught him set him on the path of embracing, researching and writing about HUMBLER LEADERSHIP, the title of his book we talk about this week.
The lessons he lays out can not only unlock humility in your leadership, it can help you avoid and overcome crucibles, too.
To learn more about John Wymore, visit joshwymore.com
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Josh Wymore:
As I reflected on it later, I realized it was really Brad's humility that enabled him to speak so candidly and directly with me because I could tell that Brad was in front of me, not just because I was being a pain in his butt, but because he actually loved me and wanted what was best for me. And that conversation was really about me, about me becoming more of who I was made to be. And because I could tell he cared about me, I invited him into my life and let him speak truth to me in ways that I would not allow other people to.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Josh Wymore, discussing how he learned a valuable leadership lesson that helped him overcome a crucible when his attempt to coach a woman's softball team failed because he thought, as a leader, he had to have and provide all the answers. What Brad, a more senior coach taught him, set him on the path of embracing, researching and writing about humbler leadership, the title of his book we talk about this week. The lessons he lays out can not only unlock humility in your leadership, they can help you avoid and overcome crucibles.
Warwick Fairfax:
Josh, it's wonderful to have you here. We actually met at the Taylor University event, which from what you mentioned, you did a grad degree there, and I know your father-in-law, Kent Yost, and he introduced us at that Taylor event. Gosh, was it a couple of months ago or was not too long ago. And you mentioned that you do a lot of work with humility, which is one of my highest values. And then we chatted and read your book, Humbler Leadership, which I loved.
So just to tell folks a little bit about you, Josh Wymore has a PhD and he's really an expert in helping high-performing leaders become more focused and productive, healthy and balanced, decisive and skilled, all very important things. He delves into things such as inspiration, application, transformation. He's a speaker, works with Fortune 500 leaders around the world, consults, coaches, also an international coach, federation coach, which I am too. So we share that in common. Very qualified on the subject of humility, which as we'll get into, I certainly have a lot of passion about.
Josh Wymore:
Could you tell my father-in-law all the things you just mentioned here? That would be helpful.
Warwick Fairfax:
There you go. Josh is worthy of response.
Josh Wymore:
That's for you. Kent Yoast. Just kidding. That's good.
Warwick Fairfax:
There you go. Indeed. Where I want to start really is, before we get into the book, and some of this you actually have in the book, but you've got a couple of crucible stories. And one fascinating one is the one about softball. I like too, in the book, how you, in a very humble manner, say that from your own perspective, you don't view yourself as a naturally humble person. I don't know if anybody comes out of the gate... When kids are small babies and toddlers, they're not typically humble, like, oh, please take as long as you want mom or dad to feed me. I'm good, right? Take your time. I feel like I need to be changed, but look, you've had such a hard day, just whenever.
So I don't know if anybody's naturally humble. So talk about just that whole softball incident because it's really, it's sort of a vignette about maybe some of the beginnings of learning the value of humble leadership. So just for folks who are listening and watching, talk about that whole softball incident.
Josh Wymore:
It was an interesting situation. I was a college sophomore and hired to be our university's assistant softball coach with the wild qualifications of having two half seasons of high school baseball under my belt. So it's terribly under qualified, but as is the case at a lot of small nonprofits, if you are a warm body and you're willing to do the work of a paid professional for a fraction of the price, then you can get hired. So that's what I did.
But going into that first season, I was trying to think through, why in the world would these women who've been playing this sport since they're four or five years old, why would they listen to some 18, 19-year-old kid? And as I thought about my paradigm of leadership, my conclusion was people don't follow leaders who aren't confident. If it seems like though I really know what I'm doing and I really believe in myself, then they'll believe me too and they'll follow me.
And so that's what I decided to do, it was just I'm going to be really confident. And to my shock, that actually did not work very well at all. These women had a very strong BS detector. And so whenever I would try and convince them to run a drill one way, and they'd have some ideas about how to do it differently, they would come over to offer some suggestions, maybe graciously, maybe not graciously, but either way, in my mind, the leader is the person who has all the answers. And so I can't afford to be wrong, otherwise why would they be following me? And so every time they had a suggestion, I had to mansplain why my way was better than their way. And shocker, it did not go over very well.
Gary Schneeberger:
Really? That is indeed shock.
Josh Wymore:
I don't know if you know any women, Gary, but they tend to not care for the condescending explanation.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yes, indeed.
Josh Wymore:
So we just had an emotionally exhausting season. We were terrible. I think we were like 14 and 27 or something that year. There's so much drama on the team. I'm in the middle of it and every day I'm fighting for my life. And I almost didn't come back the next year because it was so emotionally exhausting, but I didn't know any other way to lead. And that's when my life changed is,, we hired a new coach, coach Brad that second year, and he led with humility. He was open to being wrong, he was open to other people's ideas, and I kept waiting for that to crash and burn. But to my shock, it actually worked out really, really well. And I talk in the book about the instance where I interacted with him and my perspective changed.
I know I've been talking for a while now, so I'll slow down. But that was that catalyst moment for me of taking humility seriously.
Warwick Fairfax:
So talk about what this new coach Brad taught you and how that just transformed your whole perspective on leadership really, and why humility actually could work?
Josh Wymore:
He asked me to stay after practice one day to talk. And so I sat down in this dusty first base dug out, and he started asking me some questions about this player that I've been butting heads with. And as soon as he started in, as soon as he said her name, I knew, oh, this is a confrontation. And so my defensive walls are kind of activated, ready to come up, and yet as he talks, as he asks questions, as he challenges me, those walls just stay down. And I'm observing myself in this befuddled state like, what's going on here? He's basically telling me that I'm being a jerk. I need to grow up and take responsibility, and I'm not only listening to him, I'm going to hug the guy at the end of this conversation. What is this Jedi mind trick that he's pulling on me? I've got to figure out how to do this.
And as I reflected on it later, I realized it was really Brad's humility that enabled him to speak so candidly and directly with me. I could tell that Brad was confronting me, not just because I was being a pain in his butt, but because he actually loved me and wanted what was best for me. And that conversation was really about me, about me becoming more of who I was made to be. And because I could tell he cared about me, I invited him into my life and let him speak truth to me in ways that I would not allow other people to.
And so what I realized in that moment is he's got some tools in his leadership tool belt I don't have, and I need that because I know how my softball day-to-day is going, it is not going well. And so I began to experiment with that approach with my softball ladies on a day-to-day basis. And it totally changed the direction of our season.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it actually worked. I think you write in the book, they were kind of almost dumbstruck when you tried this humility approach. And it's like, so do you have any suggestions? You've probably been playing softball since you were four or five years old. Maybe you might know something. You didn't say it that way, but that was in your head then?
Josh Wymore:
Right. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
They actually had some ideas and you said, well, next practice, why don't we try that? They were like, say, what? Is this, Josh?
Josh Wymore:
Yeah. They probably thought invasion of the body snatchers or something had happened because I'd never given them a whiff that they could possibly be right about anything, right? Because again, I have to be right. It was really that, driven by insecurity that I was operating that way. So it was delightful and so much less stressful, and we got so much better. Things went so much better because we had access to everybody's wisdom, not just my very limited insight.
Warwick Fairfax:
So there's another incident that I think was really formative in your really learning more about humility and leadership. And I think you were out in the work world and somebody I think got promoted, not you. And so just talk about that whole incident. How you had your boss's boss, really, there was an incident. Let's do the lead up before then. But that whole episode, it was also transformational in terms of your thinking about leadership and humility, and yourself.
Josh Wymore:
This is probably ten years ago now. I was working on a team, me and two other colleagues that were all at the same level, working really well together as this team of three, tapping into each other's strengths and getting things done together. And I left on a vacation, and when I came back, one of the other two people had been promoted to be my boss, which I did not see coming at all. And so I was a little wounded by that, that I've just basically demoted relative to the people I've been reporting to, but tried to make the best of it, tried to still work together and instantly got shut out of the decision making process, which was very different than it had been before. And that was humiliating and just adding insult to injury, this particular person was a great visionary person, incredible ideas, but really struggled with execution.
And as I was isolated, stuff just started to fall by the wayside or poor decisions were made and they're impacting my team, and so I'm going to bat for them. I'm also carrying this righteous sword of like, no, we're going to keep our word. We're going to follow through on what we said we're going to do. And I'm trying to hold him accountable to everything he's saying and calling him out in meetings. So then co-workers and my boss are coming after me because I'm being adversarial. And it got to this spot where I felt like, okay, I'm either going to have a mental breakdown or I'm going to quit, or I've got to change direction. Something's got to give.
And that this moment came where I was sitting down with my boss's boss's boss, I think at this time, who had been a mentor for a long time, and he was confronting me about a time where I'd been given a directive and I hadn't done what I was supposed to do. And I said, yeah... His name is Doug. "Yeah, Doug, I probably shouldn't have done that." And he slammed his fist on the table, he's a Christian Guy. He's like, "No," pardon my French. "Damn it, Josh. You definitely shouldn't have done that. You have a submission problem."
And he said that and I just sat back in my chair and I thought about it for a second. I realized, yeah, you're right. I do have a problem with this. I need to figure this out. And so I spent probably a month or six weeks just reading everything the Bible had to say about submission. And I realized, yeah, I do have a submission problem. I think I submit, but really I just do the things that I agree with that the bosses I respect tell me to do. That's not actually submission.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Josh Wymore:
And so reading what the Bible had to say, it was not pretty. It's not popular in today's world at all. But what I realized was, my job was to, if I'm in a meeting with my leaders and they announce a direction, it's my job to say, "Hey, listen, I have some concerns about that. Here's what I think could go wrong. At the end of the day though, you're the boss. If you tell me to do this, I'm going to do my best to make you look good. And when we walk out of this room, no one's going to know that I thought this was a bad idea. I've got your back."
And so I started doing that and I noticed two things right away. The first was that my stress just disappeared because I wasn't trying to control something that I was not responsible for anymore. It's my boss's job to supervise my boss or my boss's boss's job. If my boss makes a terrible decision, those are his consequences he has to deal with, and that's not on me, and I can let this stuff go. And so mental health instantly improved.
And the other thing I noticed in about six months is that that guy was out the door because I stopped running interference for his bad decisions and people around him started to realize, oh wow, this stuff is actually not working very well. Nothing's getting done. We're not thinking this stuff through. And about a year later, I ended up actually accepting that position, and it went so much better than it would have had I been given it a year before when I hadn't learned submission. And so being pushed to the brink of like, I'm either going to go crazy or I'm going to change, that was such a gift for me at that age to learn just the need to be less of a maverick and more submissive as a leader.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I want to jump in here because what you just talked about is something that I've first learned as someone who worked for other people, and then I applied it to my leadership. And that is, you have to get comfortable. You have to be comfortable with the difference between being heard and being heeded. I had to learn that myself. I would say something and people would go, yup, and then the boss would make his own decision. And I'd be like, "Well, wait a minute. Why? Wasn't my advice any good?" Well, no, it was that I was heard, but they had other inputs. They have opinions, they have background. They're going to go in a different direction. I was heard, but I wasn't heeded.
And that's what I tried to do in my own leadership, humbly to say, yes, I'll always hear what you have to say, but not all the time are you going to be heeded. And it sounds like what you learned in that moment was the difference between those two things that you could say something in the end of the day. To quote President George W. Bush, you weren't the decider, somebody else was the decider. You were the advisor and you got comfortable with that. I think that was one of the things that propelled your change, right?
Josh Wymore:
Yeah. And it's hard, right? Because again, being heard but not heeded is, it's reminding you of your place, right? You are not the master of this universe. And that was a hard lesson for me to learn, but it was very valuable.
Warwick Fairfax:
I want to shift to some of the themes in your book, but just as we're doing that, it would seem just overall, if you have a humble nature, look at yourself in humility and we'll get into self-awareness. A lot of the things you have in your book. That all things being equal, things actually might work out better. Instead of newsflash people like working for a humble leader, not a know-it-all arrogant leader. It's actually more effective. Who knew, right?
Josh Wymore:
Yeah. Almost like God's principles for life work out in the end. It's this crazy idea.
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's talk a bit about your book. And I love just the whole concept of humble leadership. It was just amazing. So you talk, really in the introduction about Nelson Mandela and just the great story of how he had just a humble approach to leadership rather than as somebody that was in the infamous Robben Island prison for decades. He could have been like, it's payback time now that the white Africanas are out of power. So talk about how... There's a reason you put that in the introduction. Why is Mandela just somebody that we should learn something from in terms of how he led from a humble leadership perspective?
Josh Wymore:
I think it stuck with me just thinking about our political climate in the US today. I don't know what it's like in Australia now, but it feels like we bounce back and forth between our two dominant parties. And once you get in office, it's like, all right, now it's my time to undo everything that people before me did and to stick it to them. It's not a approach that really warms the heart or wins the affection of your opponents. And that's just normal politics.
Mandela was unjustly imprisoned for two and a half decades. So if anybody could have gotten a pass for that, it would've been him. And frankly, if his goal was just to justify himself, that would've been the right call. But he had this bigger goal of healing a country. And if you're going to heal a country, you can't do things by the typical playbook. He had to have these truth and reconciliation healings. He had to forgive his oppressors. And for him to achieve his goal, it took an incredible amount of humility. And I think it is just inspiring for me as someone that... Everybody has some of that retaliatory, I'll stick it to you, I'll show you. But for him to lay that down and put his country first, there's a reason that South Africa has healed as much as it has and is thriving as much as it is today.
Warwick Fairfax:
So well said. You write a lot in this book, just as we begin, about how embracing humility leads to greater purpose and performance and how it's the foundation of great leadership, which I couldn't agree with more. So there are so many good things in here. You've got some great comments by other leaders, humble leaders that admit mistakes. Probably a good place to start because there's so many good things is, you have this definition of leadership. I've never quite seen that way, but it makes so much sense. You talk about really the four cornerstones, if you will, the four elements of leadership, of humble leadership, I should say. Accurate self-perception, appreciating others' strengths and contributions, a growth mindset and greater purpose.
Now, as you're an expert on humility. As an amateur student, perhaps myself, they make abundant sense to me. So just talk about why those four elements are so key. It's really one of the foundational cornerstones of your book. Those four elements, just talk about them and why they're so important.
Josh Wymore:
Coming to this topic from a Christian perspective, I had our definition of, well, humility is being like Jesus. It's putting others first, that kind of stuff. But the audience for this book really are people who do not have any kind of faith, because as I left Christian higher ed where I'd worked for about 10 years and I'm coming to the marketplace, I realized that a lot of the leaders I'm coaching or training, they don't have this common assumption that humility is the right approach. And so I could think of plenty of Christian books, faith-driven books on humility, but nothing from just a pure research perspective. And so I thought, if I'm going to win these folks over, it's going to be from research and data because that's the Bible in the marketplace is what are the data set.
And so I started by going to research just to see in the two decades since Jim Collins wrote Good to Great, there's been this explosion on the research on humility. What do the research say on this topic? And pretty consistently, they sort of coalesce around those four elements.
And so the first is an accurate self-perception, and I think this is in contrast to how we typically see humility. I think we often think of humility as a low view of ourselves. Oh no, not me. I don't have anything to offer, but that's just not true. The root of the word humility is humus, which is the same word we have for earth or ground. And so when you say that guy's really down to earth, or he's really grounded, or he's got really both feet planted firmly on the ground, what we're saying is he's living in reality. And that's what humble leaders do. They acknowledge their weaknesses for sure, but they also recognize their strengths and they're not timid to step up and exercise those. And I'll get to this in the greater purpose part. They're not exercising it to draw attention to themselves or to stoke their ego. They're doing it to contribute to a greater purpose.
So that's the first one, that accurate self-perception. And that naturally dovetails into the second, which is appreciating other's strengths and contributions. And because when I recognize how limited I am, I recognize how much I need you and your unique contributions to the team. I recognize that I'm a part of a larger body and my hand doesn't root against the foot and need to gain attention. We all need each other to be thriving. And so as one of my friends, Davin Savonio says, "These humble leaders, instead of needing to be in the spotlight all the time, they like to be the spotlight for others and highlight the good things other people are doing."
The third one kind of folds out of those two, that growth mindset. Recognizing I'm limited, but I can grow. I'm not focused on just performing all the time and proving myself, but rather improving myself. Constantly looking to get better and to take feedback and recognizing we're all in this journey at different stages of the journey, but we're all in this journey towards maturation.
And then the last piece is a greater purpose. As Rick Warren says, "Humility is not thinking less of myself, but thinking about myself less." And so when I show up with my strengths, for instance, it's not because again, I need the attention or because I'm insecure because you just did something great, so I've got to one up you. It's stepping back and thinking, what does the team need from me and how can I add value? Would be silly of me if I have this gift of public speaking to not step up and speak on behalf of the team, so I'm going to do that, or whatever it might be.
That greater purpose is really the catalyst that takes people from just being merely modest to being humble leaders, because the greater purpose is the reason that I would challenge you if you said something that was out of line, not because it makes me feel good to demean you, or because I have something against you, but man, I don't want to call you out on this, but if I don't, you're going to struggle. Our team's going to struggle, our culture's going to struggle. So shoot, I got to have an awkward conversation.
That's what Brad did for me in that coaching conversation in the dugout. He took time out of his day to sit down with me because his greater purpose was connecting with me, investing in me, seeing our team thrive. And for all those reasons, he needed to have a very intentional conversation with me.
Warwick Fairfax:
What you're saying is so profound is that we can think of people who are humble. Oh, they must be think bad about themselves. Oh, I'm hopeless. And not to get into this, but John Dixon, as we talked previously in his book, Humilitas, talks about, in the Greek and Roman world at the time, the only word was like humiliation. Humility, at least in their culture, didn't exist. And so we can often think of, oh, people who are humble, it's kind of like, people who are humiliated. It's kind of the same thing, which obviously it's not. But this idea that you can be humble yet ambitious in a sense, not so much about yourself, but have a higher purpose that you want everybody to achieve. So as you say, challenge people in the best sense of that word.
And you talk later about asking questions. In my own way, actually, I try to do some of this. So when I'm not writing and podcasting and all, an elder at my non-dominational evangelical church, and I was on the board for a lot of years in my kid's school, which is a Christian school, and my typical language is asking questions. It's kind of how I'm wired. So if I think something needs to be said, I'll say, well, hang on, I have a question on that. So how does this relate to the mission of the church and the school? Maybe the links are there. I'm not quite seeing it. Rather than saying this is stupid, which I'm a diplomat by nature, I will ask a question.
Or on the other side, which really had not a whole lot to do with humility, if somebody does something incredible, typically at a board level, they'll sit there and think, this staff member is doing great, but they'll say nothing. And I'll be the one to say, man, that is so good. And I'll be very specific about, it's almost like, in some of these venues, if I don't say anything, it's like, well, we figured you'd say something because you are the one who's meant to say something encouraging, and that probably has nothing to do with humility, but anyway. But to your point is, I think it's just so important is a humble person can challenge, but in a humble way, right?
Josh Wymore:
That's right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And asking, it doesn't have to be asking question, but one of the things I think of, and I'm not perfect at it is, state your point, but let go of the outcome. People may not listen to it. I've had times when I've been off the charts passionate about something and either of those two boards, if you will. And it's like, I hear what you're saying all right but not really. And I've had to just let it go.
With somebody that's underneath the surface, I'm a very passionate person with a lot of convictions. I was like, okay, let go, let God, as they say. But that's humble leadership, right? You're not always going to be seen as right?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yep. You've been heard and not heeded.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. Not easy, not easy... But such great points. So a lot of interesting things in here. So one of the things you talk about was individuals who scored higher on a humility assessment and you got a bunch of stats, they experienced 57 percent fewer depressive symptoms, 64 percent less anxiety, 73 percent more happiness, 56 percent greater life satisfaction.
Why wouldn't you want to be humble? It's like, do you want to be less depressed, less anxious, more happy, greater life satisfaction? Actually, no, I'm good.
Josh Wymore:
Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
So just talk a bit, because I mean, did that surprise you when you saw that research? So what did you think of all that when you saw all that?
Josh Wymore:
I was surprised at how broad it was and how significant those results were. That was a survey by Neil Kraus from the University of Michigan, and digging into that, what are the mechanics there of why you would be more peaceful. Specifically, he looked at people who just had adverse life events, so they found out they got cancer or a spouse passed away or something like that. And those were the situations in which they had more levity, more peace, more perspective.
And as I've come to understand humility, it makes sense that if I'm not trying to control things I can't control, if I don't think I always have to have it all together, if I'm serving a purpose beyond myself and beyond my self-preservation, then it makes sense that I would be willing to take some of these things as learning opportunities. To not be stressed trying to manipulate things that I have no influence over. Because I see myself accurately in the universe, I'm able to let go of the things that most of us spend our times trying to control that we have no control over. So there's probably a lot of dynamics going on there.
But to your point, why would you not want to do that? It seems like humility is this life and leadership secret that's not a secret. That's just hiding right here in plain sight.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's also, as you just said, it's a secret for how you come back from crucibles, which is the purpose of why we're talking-
Josh Wymore:
That's right.
Gary Schneeberger:
Is the purpose of the podcast. What you just said, they had significant life setbacks and all of those positive outcomes come from humility. Humility, not an inoculation against crucibles, but it certainly is something that helps you get through them, right?
Josh Wymore:
That's right.
Gary Schneeberger:
I've got to believe that's absolutely true.
Josh Wymore:
That's true. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's actually a good point, very good point, Gary, because when you have a crucible, it can be your fault or maybe it was somebody else's fault or maybe an injury or a natural disaster. There are all sorts of things, but certainly in the category, when it's your fault, and we talk about, just in our own models, just self-reflection and having an accurate appraisal. What went wrong? What was my part in it? What can I learn? How can I be better and not make the same mistakes? How can I have people around me? Maybe they have skills and abilities that I don't have, so maybe I'll stop trying to do it all.
But coming back from a crucible, if you don't have humility, there's that phrase, history tends to repeat itself. People don't have humility to learn. Most national leaders, historical leaders tend not to be humble. There are a few that are, and one of the things that my book, Crucible Leadership, it's not really a book on humility, but it talks a lot about leadership. I think of Abraham Lincoln, who when U.S historians survey amongst themselves, who was the greatest president, they always name Lincoln as number one. They do this survey every three or four years or so. And at least from my perspective, one of the reasons he was so great was the greatness of his character. And a key part of that was clearly he had a very high purpose to unite the nation and rid the nation of slavery, but he was so humble that he was like bulletproof.
I think there was one incident that I remember, it was in a book by Doris Kearns Goodwin, Team of Rivals, which is phenomenal book actually on leadership and also humility, funnily enough. And there was one incident where somebody said, well, I spoke to the Secretary of War, as you used to call the defense secretary back then. And he said that you're an idiot, Mr. Lincoln. He's saying directly to Lincoln's face. Back in the day, it was a little easier to talk to your leaders. And he said, well, you may well be right. Just tell me specifically where, because I'd like to understand, rather than saying, how dare you call me an idiot? And it's time to fire that secretary of war for saying. So you could tell him anything, and he was bulletproof. You may agree or disagree.
Josh Wymore:
My favorite quip was someone said something like, I'm going to paraphrase this, like Mr. Lincoln, you are two-faced. And he said, sir, if I had two faces, do you think I would choose to wear this one? Man, what a great zinger, right?
But to your point, when you're not wasting energy, protecting your image, protecting your ego, having to prove that you're right all the time, how much more energy can you devote to learning from mistakes, bouncing back from setbacks, building teams? Because we're all finite people. If we're spending that time building those barriers, that's time and energy we're not spending doing other things.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's so true. So you mentioned before that wisdom, this concept of wisdom around humility has been around a long time, and obviously we're familiar with the Christian faith of, in a sense, Jesus humbling himself to the cross, and he was exceptionally humble, a carpenter. But you mentioned, just from different religions, Buddhism, Confucianism, Islam, Stoicism, different spiritual ways of thought. So just talk about how this concept of humility, it really is what the business books these days call, the ancient wisdom. It's been there for thousands of years. And talk about how maybe we've forgotten it, but it's not a new concept, what you're really promoting and championing.
Josh Wymore:
I think every generation has a way of rediscovering truth in their own context and in their own language. And so if this is true, we would expect to not just see it in any one religion. We would expect to see that it would actually work in practice as research shows that it does. And so, one of the questions I've had a lot of discussion with other Christians is, is it possible to be humble if you're not a Christian? Basically, do Christians have exclusive access to humility? And it's like, well, obviously being a Christian doesn't make you humble because I know plenty of arrogant Christians, and fortunately by the grace of God, there are lots of other folks who can be humble, I believe. Even if they have different religion or no religion at all. Just think about how miserable world it would be if no one else was humble. So I think that's a gift that different faith traditions have stumbled upon this universal truth, and hopefully we can all practice it better.
Warwick Fairfax:
So talk a bit about the do-become flywheel, and I think it's in that section, the whole cathexis, and I won't describe because I'll let you do that. But just talk about do-become, because there's a lot of folks, maybe everybody, that's... Let me ask you a question. Do you think anybody's actually born humble or is it nature, nurture? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Josh Wymore:
I think there is a nature nurture aspect to it because Brad, I asked Brad point-blank, just probably a couple of years ago, what are you doing, Brad, to become humble? And he is just like, I mean, I'm not really thinking about it that much. And he's a very humble guy, and I think some of that's his disposition. Some of it is other things he's doing that are indirectly creating that humility. The time he spends praying, and with his family and that kind of stuff. So I do think some people, because of their hard-wiring, because of their upbringing are more disposed to humility than others, but for all of us, regardless of where you are on that continuum, my book's called Humbler Leadership because I believe all of us can become humbler. All of us can take a step towards that perfect humility that we'll never achieve.
And the way of doing that is not by crossing your fingers and hoping that you get it. It's not by praying for it, although that's not going to hurt. It's not even just by reading a book on humility, no matter how good that book is. It's doing the things that humble leaders do. As you do those things, the things we do, do something to us. And so if I spend seven hours a day shopping online, I'm going to become more materialistic. If I spend 10 hours a week reading Men's Health and Cosmopolitan, I'm going to become more image oriented. It's just going to happen.
In the same way, if I spend half of a meeting asking questions of my team, I'm going to accidentally learn some stuff. Even if I'm just going through the motions, I'm going to realize, oh wow, I didn't think about that. Maybe these people aren't idiots like I thought they were, right? And so I start to reinforce this. I see the benefits of it. I get better at the skill, it becomes more natural for me, and within a few months or a few years, I'm asking questions because that has become my nature. And so that's one of the messages of the book is that for you to become humble or humbler, you don't have to get zapped by a bolt of lightning. You don't have to get different parents. Just trust me. Do the things that research has shown for a long time to actually produce humility. And over time you will become humbler.
Warwick Fairfax:
And I like what you said about catexis, which is consistency and intensity. You could be consistent in doing not a whole lot... Something like, to pick tennis, you could practice the wrong stroke the wrong way every day, it'll get nowhere. You could practice the right stroke one day a year, you'll get no, you need consistency and intensity. That just seemed a profound point in terms of this whole do-become, and through research you can understand that.
One of the other really interesting things in here is, you talk about, I think a study, I think in the '80s by McCall, Lombardo, Harrison, and just the whole notion of formal learning, social learning, experiential. In most cases, in school, you've got here the stats. 70 percent of our time is typically invested in formal learning like exams and tests, 20 percent social learning, learning from the boss, 10 percent experiential, volunteering, internships. But the stats were so different in the study in terms of successful executives. So talk about how those stats were reversed and executives were really successful because this was mind-blowing to me.
Josh Wymore:
The basic idea is we don't arrive on earth as blank slates, but we obviously don't know a ton. And so, so much of our time is just spent downloading information into our brain, understanding how to do basic mathematics, understanding how to conjugate a verb and all that kind of stuff. But once you have that base level formal knowledge, at some point more formal knowledge doesn't really accelerate you in the same way. You see that the growth curve for most sports, if you play pickleball tomorrow, you've never played pickleball, you're going to be terrible the first time you play, but by the end of the first 90 minutes, you will have gotten a lot better. And then it starts to taper off slowly. That same way for most learning curves.
So most of your early life has been in that formal learning of just being told what to do, given frameworks for things. But then once you achieve that baseline understanding, it flips over where you start to really learn most from experience and from other people. And so this is why maybe the biggest predictor of your job success is who your boss is, how they invest in you or don't, how they lead you or don't.
The other big thing is the breadth of experience and depth of experience you can get. Are you cranking a nut on the assembly line every single day or are you involved in diverse projects with different stakeholders? That's how you really accelerate your learning once you get into the workforce. It's not that formal learning goes away, but it's less important than the actual on-the-job experience, the things you learn from your peers, the things you learn through reflection, all that sort of thing.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I think this point, especially the 70 percent experiential learning is so critical to what we do at Beyond the Crucible because we say all the time, one of our taglines, we said it hundreds if not more than a thousand times, your crucible didn't happen to you, it happened for you. And the idea behind that is that what you've gone through, trials, tragedies, setbacks, failures, those things can teach you lessons. And this research bears that out. Learning from good things that happen to you, great. Learning from things that are in the middle that happened to you, but learning from difficult things that happen to you, that's learning too. And that's that 70 percent of how we learn is experiential. I would think that is something that our listeners and viewers should grasp onto and say, hallelujah, I'm going to learn something from this. I'm not just going to endure it. I can learn to make my life better from what I've been through.
Josh Wymore:
That's right. And specifically within that, I would say, we don't learn from experience. We learn from reflecting on experience. And so, hey, it's great you experienced this thing and you could say, well, it's a learning moment, but it's only a learning moment if you make it a learning moment. If you stop and think, gosh, what can I have done differently here? Okay, how can I include this step in my process next time? So it's great that you experienced it. Now do the extra work of slowing down to journal about it, to process it, to write about it. That's the part that I see a lot of leaders skipping over because it feels like you're not making any progress, but it's that reflection where you really metabolize the experience, extract the nutrients from it, and it becomes part of you. Otherwise, it can just pass straight through you, to stick with that metaphor, and it just causes a big sink and doesn't really make you any better in the process.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a great point, Josh. It's interesting, as I reflect, I'm a naturally self-reflective person. That's how I came out of the gate. So that's a lot of things I'm bad at, but I like that a lot. But when I think about, well, why is humility... I mean, humility and integrity are two of my highest values. Why is humility such a higher value for me? And I'd say it was probably the experiential learning, crucible learning, if you will.
And we might've talked about this when we chatted at Taylor University, but as listeners know, I grew up in this very wealthy background in Australia and this 150-year-old family media business. And one of the things I say in my book, I grew up in the world of the authentic, I could have also said, I grew up in the world of the arrogant. And so we had cocktail parties, dinner parties with ambassadors, prime ministers, the odd visiting Hollywood people, business executives, and they were really telling each other about how brilliant they were and how incredible. And I was in Europe and I met Count so-and-so, or Princess, whoever, and I just hated it.
I just almost had this allergic reaction. And one of the other funny things is, Australia's a very egalitarian society, which is good in a lot of ways. And I went to a very good boys school. It was, I'm sure expensive. And so the other boys there, they were not sons of poverty-stricken people... Bankers, lawyers, stockbrokers. But because of this egalitarian thing in Australia, they would say, well, Warwick, you think you're better than us? Back then, I was a very shy, I still am to a degree, very shy person, would never have said anything to anybody about the money and the cars my dad had ever. So I gave no indication whatsoever that that was my thinking. I just wanted to hide, if you will.
And so it's like, that is just not me. So the combination of people, of how the kids, as kids say, you think you're better than us? Well, how many cars does your dad have? Or I probably stupidly answered the question because he loved cars. How much money and what did I know? But especially the arrogance of the people in those cocktail parties, it's like, I do not want to be like that. I don't want to think of myself as more highly than anybody else. I'm not better or worse than it. So if that experience, like a crucible forge infused, almost like in blowtorch level, this value of humility.
Doesn't mean I'm perfect, doesn't mean I don't have moments where I fall off the wagon, if you will. But the reason humility is such a strong value of mine is I grew up in a very non-humble background with arrogance. And it's just still to this day, I don't really enjoy being around people that are arrogant. People might feel like it's annoying. For me it's almost like an allergic reaction, just this visceral. I need to get out of here kind of reaction. So anyway, that's a bit about my story.
So you've got a lot of other fascinating things in here. The humility paradox. They're humble, but they know who they are. I think elsewhere you talk about the importance of being humble, but yet understanding your gift and strengths, which is just so... You can be humble, but you still realize there are areas that you're very good at. It's a bit of a growth opportunity for me.
Open-ended questions, active listening, invite others in. To me, one of the profound things about being a humble leader is knowing your strengths, but knowing the areas where you're not good at. I know for me, I hate selling. I have some idea about sales strategy, but I just can't do it. I just have a block. So Gary and others are a whole lot better at selling and promoting, and that's okay. Humble leaders know there are areas that they're not good at. It doesn't mean they're a bad person. They include people that are best. So talk a bit about just some of the things you talk about, the paradox and just inviting others in because that's what humble leaders do. It's probably why they're so successful.
Josh Wymore:
That's right. Again, if I'm not wasting my energy, protecting my ego and looking like I have it all together, then I can go hire people to fill those spots who are best in class at what I need them to do, and they can shine. I don't have to diminish their success, so I feel better by comparison. I can just be excited for their success. And so, go figure that we would work together better and that those people would want to stay around because they don't feel like their boss is threatened by them being successful. And so there's tons of research on how humble leaders build stronger teams because they're quick to admit mistakes and they have a growth mindset, and it's not about them and all those sorts of things.
Warwick Fairfax:
Really, towards the end of the book, you talk about purpose, which we talk a lot about here at Beyond The Crucible, and you can be humble, but yet you have a purpose that you're driving towards and you really say three things because often people say, well, I know what my purpose is. And you say there are three things, passions what you love, strengths, what you're good at, and the third, flourishing, what fosters peace. So talk about those three elements of finding purpose. A lot of people out there that they want their life to count, especially a lot of young people today, they want to make a difference. So talk about why purpose is important and how you find it.
Josh Wymore:
I think it's easy to maybe diagnose that if you only have one of the three. So if I'm really good at playing Call of Duty and I want that to be my purpose in life, well, okay. It's hard to imagine how that helps people or makes a difference in the world. Maybe that's just a hobby or a passion. I may really enjoy playing bass guitar, but I'm not great at it. Well, probably not where I should spend my life, or there may be things in the world that I care a lot about, but I just don't feel equipped to solve them. It's going to be hard to get traction there. And so if I could find the intersection of those three things, a place where... For me, for instance, I'm really passionate about connecting deeply with people and helping them become more of who they're made to be.
I think God's gifted me with some strengths in communication and connecting with them. And I know because I've seen it when people are listened to well, they can achieve some clarity, they go on to not just become better leaders, but better husbands and wives, mothers and fathers. Their kids do better in school because they have a different home environment. It just creates these ripple effects out into the world. And so the fact that I get to live and lead in a purposeful way every day is such a gift. Pinch myself all the time, waiting for it to disappear because it feels too good to be true, but that's the same joy that I hope everybody could have, figuring out how they make a difference that they're good at and that they enjoy every day.
Warwick Fairfax:
Just in the last couple of minutes we have, I understand that you're working on a new book?
Josh Wymore:
That's right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And maybe if you wouldn't, I know it's not out yet, but maybe a little bit of a teaser for people that this was going to be, I think a really interesting one because from what I understand, you wanted to answer the question of how come most people in the world stay basically the same over the course of their life? And there's a few that transform and the keys is having at a fundamental level, a sense of unconditional love and acceptance. So talk about just some of the themes in this book and why unconditional love and acceptance are key to just growing and evolving and transforming rather than just staying the same because this should be a really good book. So talk a bit about some of those things and why you wanted to write it.
Josh Wymore:
I wanted to understand why a couple of my clients were stuck and not making the same progress as others. What did I need to learn to help them be successful? And so I've spent about a year and a half now interviewing people who have gone through radical life transformations. People who attempted suicide to drug addiction, alcohol addiction, eating disorders, obesity, any kind of life change. And I've been looking for these common levers or common processes in their stories. And one of the most surprising findings has been that every one of these people who have really achieved a great state of transformation, they all had this experience of unconditional love and acceptance at the beginning of that process from a friend, a parent, even just a divine encounter with God. And as I'm digging into that, it seems like the reason that's so powerful is, it communicates the sense of value that you are worthy of fighting for, you are worthy of living, you are worth the effort of saving and changing.
And it creates a sense of stability as well that they feel for the first time, maybe, okay, I'm safe and secure in this relationship. Maybe this eating disorder's not working for me. Maybe I have a drinking problem. Because they feel that this person looking at them loves them and there's nothing they could say that would make them love them any less. And so they start to open up their hands and let go of the things that have been killing them over the years. So there's a lot more edit than just that. But my big takeaway is the greatest gift we can give other people is to be the embodiment of love to the people around us. If we can do that, people will naturally flourish and change and transform.
Warwick Fairfax:
Such a profound point, Josh. The world would be such a different place if everybody was unconditionally loved and accepted. It would be a radically different place.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word's been spoken on a subject. And between Warwick and Josh, we've just spoken that last word. I'd be remiss, Josh, if I didn't give you the chance really quickly here to let folks know how they can find out more about you and your work.
Josh Wymore:
Thanks, Gary. My website, joshwymore.com, W-Y-M-O-R-E. LinkedIn, YouTube, those are the best places to find me.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick,. We just finished a great episode with Josh Wymore, the author of the book, Humbler Leadership. A whole bunch of stuff in there to unpack. I always feel bad at this point of our wrap-ups because I asked you to do something that's almost impossible, and that is what's one takeaway that you would like folks who have watched and listened to take from our interview with Josh?
Warwick Fairfax:
I don't know if I can cut it down to one, but what I love about what Josh did in his book, Humbly Leadership, is he talks about why humility works, why it makes sense, and how really some of it is, he found a lot of research, including Jim Collins' Good to Great. In Collins' book, he talks about great leaders, those who have been very successful in terms of the long-term profitability of their companies. Yes, they have this iron will, this clear purpose, but they have great humility. So they have humility plus just a clear plan, just strong desire to transform their companies. And really humble leadership, it works.
He has data in there about people who are humble, leaders there, less stressed, less anxious, happier. It's like, who wouldn't want those things? And I loved the definition that Josh Wymore comes up with about humble leadership, and he says it includes these four elements, accurate self-perception, appreciating other's strengths and contributions, a growth mindset and greater purpose.
That makes so much sense to me. We talk about humility a lot on Beyond the Crucible. It's one of my highest values, as I mentioned in the podcast, growing up in this very large 150-year-old family media business in Australia where there's not a whole lot of humility around often very successful executives. And at the parties that in the house I grew up in, we had prime ministers, ambassadors, business leaders and so forth. So I'm very well aware of that. And so humility has always been one of my highest values.
So really, we talked about on the podcast, you raised the issue of when you come back from a crucible, you've got to have the humility to be self-aware, especially when let's say, the crucible was your fault. You made some mistakes.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
You've got to learn from those mistakes. You can say, oh, there's a lot of learning lessons, but if you don't learn them, what use is it going to be?
And so you're starting with having an accurate self-perception of yourself. It doesn't mean you have this sense of, oh, I'm hopeless. Nobody should love me. I need to hide under the covers. Don't look at me. It means, yes, there are areas where I'm not good at, but maybe there are areas where I'm great at. And it doesn't mean that you can't be humble but still realize you have certain gifts and talents that you're good at. That's okay. And by having an accurate self-perception, it helps you appreciate other's strengths and contributions that you don't have. And because you're humble, you don't have to win all the time. You don't have to be the center of attention. As Josh said, great leaders put the spotlight on others, not themselves. That is so true. You hear about great leaders talking about their own, maybe failures and faults, and talking about the successes of others, a growth mindset. Humble leaders, they always want to grow. How can I get better? How can I improve in my craft, find greater purpose? It can't just be about me.
In our language, we talk about a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. That's having a greater purpose. So really what Josh Wymore says, it makes so much sense. It works. The data shows. He has so much data that shows how effective humble leaders are. It doesn't mean thinking of yourself as hopeless or some humiliated, awful person, it's just realizing you don't have all the answers and being willing to learn from others, being willing to shine a light on your team members, having an accurate self-perception, and just we talk about having a team of fellow travelers to help you.
So being a humble leader just makes sense. How many arrogant leaders succeed long term? I would say few to none. Eventually, who wants to work for an arrogant know-it all leader? Eventually, the good people, the people you most want, they'll leave. So you want to be successful from a long-term perspective. If you want to have a legacy that people admire, you want to have family members that actually like you and admire you, try humble leadership. You'll be more successful in the broad sense of that word, at home with your friends, at work, everywhere. It just makes sense. So you want to have joy and fulfillment in your life, try being a humble leader. What Josh Wymore talks about makes so much sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
And folks that will put the end on another episode of Beyond The Crucible. Please know this, before we're together the next time, that we understand, and you've heard us talk about it, your crucible experiences are difficult. Warwick's been through them, Josh has been through them. I've been through them. We know that you're going through them now if you're listening to this show, perhaps. But we also know this if we learn the lessons from them, if we take that experiential learning and if we don't just experience something, but we learn from it. If we press in and learn the lessons that our crucibles have taught us, that they can lead us to a path that can be the most significant path of our lives, the best path of our lives, the most rewarding path of our lives, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance.
Ready? Visit BeyondTheCrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Want Contentment? Here’s How to Find It
Discontentment. It’s a crucible all its own when you’re not living a life aligned with your skills and values. But what if you are pursuing a life that is fully aligned with your skills and values? Discontentment can be a world-rattler when is pops up under those circumstances.
Warwick tackles this subject in his most recent blog, and in our discussion this week we help you overcome those difficult feelings with such tips as understanding that contentment is not found solely in what you do and asking yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to.
If it is — another tip — decouple who you are from what you do.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. Your job, your life, your career, your calling, you feel like, "This is what I was born to do, and I'm good at it, and I feel really passionate about it," that's great, but life never tends to be easy. Very few of us go through kind of a one-and-done crucible. Crucibles can crop up, roadblocks, challenges of different sizes, some more weighty than others, and so one of the things I've found is, and maybe from others too, even when you're leading a life in line with your calling, it's still possible to be discontented.
Gary Schneeberger:
Discontentment, it's a crucible all its own when you're not living a life aligned with your skills and values, but what if you are? Discontentment can be a world-rattler when it pops up under those circumstances. Warwick tackles this subject in his most recent blog, and in our discussion this week, we help you overcome those difficult feelings with such tips as understanding that contentment is not found solely in what you do, and asking yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to. If it is, another tip, decouple who you are from what you do.
Well, Warwick, we've got another fun episode this time talking about a blog you've written, and I'm going to drop a pin right here for you, folks. There's an exciting detail about this blog that we'll reveal later, so keep listening because in some ways you won't believe one of the things that's going to come out of our conversation of Warwick's latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com, and that blog is called We All Want Contentment. Here's How to Get It. Warwick, I'll start at the start, at the beginning. What led you to write a blog called that, We All Want Contentment, how do we get it? What was going through your life, going through your mind, going through your heart when you wrote this?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary, it's an interesting question. So there's a friend and historian by the name of Stewart Johnson, and he has been working, gosh, more than 20 years, actually studying my great-great-grandfather John Fairfax. He has recently written a book which is in manuscript form. It should get published I think in the next few months. I've read quite a lot of manuscripts of this, and Stewart has very kindly asked me to write an endorsement for his book. So as listeners may know, this book about John Fairfax, he was the one that started the 150-year-old family media business in Australia. Originally, it was the Sydney Morning Herald, but then it grew to be a very large company with newspapers, magazines, TV, radio stations, newsprint bills. It was enormous. For a variety of reasons, as I was finishing my last year at Harvard Business School in 1987, with my dad having died and a bunch of things going on, management not making good decisions from my perspective, I launched this $2.25 billion takeover, again in 1987. Three years later, it doesn't work out. Australia got in a big recession, we had to file for bankruptcy.
So all this to say that I was fully aware of John Fairfax's remarkable business acumen. I mean, he was a business guy, he grew this paper into being a very successful ... the leading newspaper in Australia, the Sydney Morning Herald. So yeah, I mean, I have a Harvard MBA, but I don't have the natural business abilities perhaps that he does. I'm a reflective advisor. I'm not really a manager or a business leader, I don't think so. I was aware of that. And yes, I've read the manuscript before, but this time I was really impacted by the extent of his character, and the strength of his faith. Well, I knew he was an elder at his church, and I'm an elder at my church, but he pretty much founded or funded every nonprofit in Sydney that existed at the time. I mean, it was incredible. He had this kindness, this face that just had this sort of the light in it, this sort of shining disposition, and whether it was his family or his employees, like when he died his employees said, "We've lost a kind and [inaudible 00:04:37] friend."
He'd mentor church plotters at his particular church with plant in other places. He had not just strong faith, but such character and kindness. He would write notes to his kids when they were away saying, "Oh, I was looking for an image of you, a painting or a note, and tears came to my eyes," with his, my great-grandfather James Reading Fairfax when he was like 19, 20, he was in England in the 1850s. He's writing these just kind notes to his teenage, young adult son, and I'm like, "In the 1950s, a lot of dads didn't do that to their sons." We're talking 1850s. I mean, this is ridiculous. I mean, who is this guy? I was just blown away by his kindness, and his compassion. As Stewart Johnson said to me, "I'm a historian, if there's dirt, if there's bad things to write about," just like as you would appreciate, Gary, as a journalist, "I'm going to put it in there. My job is to be accurate." He couldn't find anything. There's nothing, not one thing.
So all that to say is as I was reading this, especially just his kindness that came through to me, it frankly made me feel a bit bad about myself. I mean, I realized, look, I'm not a business guy at his level, and yes, my faith in Christ is the most important thing in my life, but I feel like his faith is head and shoulders more than me, and his kindness and impact in the world, not just from the size of it, but just the character of the man, it just made me feel a little less than. It's like, "Oh, wow." It's like, "This is getting annoying. He's too good." So it made me think, how will I ever measure up to that standard of John Fairfax? I'm not talking about the business side, I realize that won't happen, and I'm more or less okay with that, but his faith and character, those things are really, really important to me. Faith and character, values, beliefs, faith, character, that's really important to me. It's like, "Gosh, I try my hardest, but I don't think I will ever be at the John Fairfax level."
So that made me think a lot about contentment, and what it means, and just the danger of comparing yourself to others, even including areas of faith and values that you have. You think of friends or people you read about, people you work with, and you think, "Gosh, they're so amazing. They're so patient. They're such good husbands, good wives, good fathers, good mothers. My gosh, look at all they do outside of work, and volunteer. How do they find the time and the energy? And they always have a smile on their face. I've never seen them get agitated ever," and you start thinking of yourself, "Gosh, I try so hard that it's like, wow, I can't compete. I mean it's just ... Why not give up?" So it can impact your sense of contentment.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I'm really glad ... This is going to sound bad, and it won't be bad after I finish the second sentence, the first sentence is going to sound bad. I'm really glad you wrote about this subject. It sounds like I'm really glad you felt bad and I'm not. I'm glad you wrote about the subject because when we say things like ... When we talk about contentment, and what we're going to talk about here, not placing your contentment in certain things, there's a tendency for some people to maybe look at that as a negative, as you're just settling, and that's not what we're talking about at all. I encourage you folks to keep listening and watching as we unpack Warwick's blog, but what he just explained really shines a light on why he wrote about this subject, and we'll get to even more pinpoint light as we go through the points of his blog.
I want to say one thing to you about on John Fairfax's faith and character. I've been doing the show with you for more than five years now, and many is the time ... You were talking about how he wrote a letter to his son, and it was this great letter. You've talked many times on this show, Warwick, about the way at birthdays and holidays, your family sits around the table and you speak words of affirmation to each other. That strikes me as being in the same ballpark, being on the same base of the same ballpark is what your great-great-grandfather was about. I've told you mostly jokingly that I have a historical crush on your great-great-grandmother. She was sensing he was having a hard time, sort of like you're having a bit of a hard time, which you've admitted, you've acknowledged has led to this blog, and she went and encouraged him, and talked to him to tell him, "John, if you believe this is what's going to happen, if you believe this is true, I have nothing but faith and trust in you. I believe in you." Those kinds of things she told him.
I recall, I don't know, I can't recall the episode, Warwick, but I recall that on the episode when your book came out, your wife Gale wrote something that I read on air to you about how proud she was of you, and how she always knew this book would get published. In that sense, I'm not trying to correct you, but I am trying to say where you feel like you haven't measured up, maybe all the way in the character and the faith of your great-great-grandfather, there's evidence to counteract that from my perspective.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, that's very kind. It's certainly not through lack of effort. I really try and encourage folks, and certainly my family, and yeah, no, I very much appreciate that. Maybe we can be too hard on ourselves, but sometimes we can be our own worst enemies, but yes, I appreciate that. Thank you.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, yeah. Here's the good part about it. When we're hard on ourselves sometimes, and I think it plays out in this blog, if you're being hard on yourself that's for you to determine. You've got some great tips for people. So I want to ask you another question about this blog before we dive into it, and that is we've talked many times on this show about how you can feel discontentment when you're living a life, as we described it in an earlier blog, that you want to escape from. You can feel discontentment when your life's not on the rails where you want it to be. It's not aligned with your beliefs and values, and talents and passions, but what you're talking about here is the kind of discontentment that can even crop up when you are living your life of significance. That's an all-new perspective for us. Explain a little bit about why this can happen and how hard it can be.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean it's an interesting question. Obviously, the first thing you got to do is make sure that your life and career, as we've been talking about, is in line with your beliefs and values, abilities and passions. You don't want to lead a life that you want to escape from. That's the first step. So let's say your job, your life, your career, your calling, you feel like, "This is what I was born to do, and I'm good at it, and I feel really passionate about it," that's great, but life never tends to be easy. Very few of us go through kind of a one and done crucible. Crucibles can crop up, roadblocks, challenges of different sizes, some more weighty than others, and so one of the things I've found is, and maybe from others too, even when you're leading a life in line with your calling, it's still possible to be discontented. We might feel like we're not doing enough.
Let's say you're leading some non-profit or you're working in it, and it's like you think to yourself, "There are so many people to help. I feel like the people we help is sort of like a drop in the bucket, a grain in the Sahara Desert, if you will. The need is so big, and we're making a pinprick of difference in a food pantry," in your town, whatever it is, and you just can feel less than. It's like, "Gosh, I have friends, or I've read about people that have such a bigger impact than me, maybe I just don't work hard enough, or maybe I'm not committed enough." I guess you could start being negative towards others, "Maybe I don't have the right people on the team," and then that could lead you to being too harsh than you think so. Then you want to be, "Gosh, there was that other day when I was short with my team, or my wife, or my husband, gosh, that's not the kind of person I want to be. I can't believe I reacted that way. I mean, I just chewed their head off for no reason."
Come on, maybe there were reasons, but it's just, "I'm not like that." You start getting hard on yourself and your character, and you start feeling like, "What we're doing, it feels like just a drop in the bucket, and there's so much more to do. There are so many more people to help, and I'm giving it my all, but my all, it's not enough." Then you can start feeling frustrated and discontent, even though you're passionate about your mission you feel like it's not enough, and that can cause ways of discontent and frustration to come over you.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I told you as we were preparing for this offline that I had a great example that speaks to this idea that other people's callings, they're living them out better than I am, and I think about every single one, every athlete at the professional level. Because here's the truth about every athlete on every professional baseball team, basketball team, football team, hockey team, all of those folks, they were the best player on their junior league team. They were probably their best player on their team in high school. They were close to the best player in college. In other words, they had nothing but A+, A+, A+, then they get to the big leagues, to the pros, and suddenly everybody's been that player, and the pecking order gets readjusted. There are people on professional baseball teams right now who are sitting on the bench, they're not playing much, who were the stars all the way through until they got to the pros.
I think that speaks to what we're talking about here, is that we can't all be the best player "on our professional sports team." We can't all have the greatest impact with our passion, skills, abilities, there has to be a stratification of who has the best, down to who has less. But here's the thing, when you're in professional sports, you're still in this top 1% of people. When you're living your calling out, and you're living a life of significance, and you're having an impact on others for the benefit of others, that is more than enough dare I say, that is what you were called to do. Does any of that make any sense?
Warwick Fairfax:
It makes total sense. I feel like the most mature athletes, they handle it pretty well. I think of tennis, which all Australians love tennis, and as folks know, that's where I grew up. I think for a while, Pete Sampras had the record for the most major titles, and then Roger Federer beat him. I think it was probably a little bit frustrating for Pete Sampras, but he took it, I think, pretty well, and then lo and behold comes Novak Djokovic, and he beats Roger Federer's record, and Roger Federer, he handled it. He handled it well, I mean he is happy. That's great. I think mature athletes say records are meant to be broken, and I'm sure he probably would've liked to keep the all-time record for titles.
In fact, just as I'm thinking, the person I think originally broke Roger Federer's record is Rafa Nadal, a big rival of Federer's, but also good friends. I don't think that really fazed Federer, and then along comes Djokovic and beats both of them in terms of all-time titles. I think both Nadal and Federer, they handled it well. They didn't have their identity, their significance all wrapped up in major titles. I mean, they're striving for success, they're giving it their all to be the best at their profession, they are not backing off at all.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It's true what you said, records are made to be broken, but here's what isn't broken when your record's broken, the impact you've had, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Amen.
Gary Schneeberger:
Your impact is still impact whether your record's number one, so apply that, folks, to your own calling, your own life of significance. "Your record," the size of your organization, that may be surpassed, but your impact is never broken. I think that's important to remember. Sorry, let's go through the points, you may have noticed, folks, I didn't say how many points. Again, stay tuned. Stay tuned about how many points we have. Let's go through the points of your blog called We All Want Contentment. Here's How To Get It. The first point in your blog work is this, contentment is not found solely in what we are doing. Talk a little bit about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So that is really the first step, is when we think about it, contentment can never be found solely in what we're doing. It doesn't matter how noble the cause, contentment is not found in that cause, it's really found within, and we'll talk more about this. But if you have your whole sense of contentment wrapped up in the cause, the mission, and whether it's doing well or not doing well, whether your company's growing by 10 or 20% or not, whether the people you are serving increases by 30% or 40%, if your contentment is wrapped up in metrics, that's never a good thing. Strive hard, try hard, but you don't have contentment wrapped up solely in what you're doing, it's got to be found somewhere else, and from my perspective, found within.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good place to start. Here's the second place that we go to in your blog, and that's this, dig deep into your own beliefs and values. How does that connect to the first one and get you moving along this journey that you want to lead people on on finding their contentment?
Warwick Fairfax:
I think from our perspective, when you're pursuing a mission or a calling, it's got to be linked to your most deeply held beliefs and values. Many major religious ways of thought and religious perspectives teach us that contentment is not found in things, or as the Bible says in the things of this world. Again, it doesn't mean that you're not trying hard, but you've got to find a way to separate contentment from what you're doing, and part of the keys to being able to make that separation is to begin to think of your own beliefs and values, which is really, contentment is definitely related to that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Second point. Here's the third point. We're moving with alacrity through these. This is good. The third point is this, ask yourself if your identity, ooh, this is a good one, ask yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to. The key phrase here, if I may, before I turn it over to you, the key phrase here is wrapped up in. Ask yourself if your identity is not in some ways tied to, or is not influenced by, no, is wrapped up in the cause you're devoting your life to. Why is that perhaps a bit of a recipe for discontentment?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary, I like the way you emphasized the words wrapped up in, I mean those are the keywords. Again, especially if it's some cause or mission that you're over the top passionate about, that's fine, but when your identity is all wrapped up in it, then whether you're increasing people serve by 10 or 20%, or revenues going up or down, your identity will go up and down almost like the stock market. You don't want to have your identity in line with the stock market or some other metric, it's never helpful. You've got to make that separation. So if you say to yourself, "Gosh, in all honesty, my identity is wrapped up in what I do," then that's a problem because you'll always tend to feel that, "Well, it's never enough. I'm not helping enough people. I'm disappointing myself. I'm disappointing others." So you'll tend to get on a treadmill in which you go faster and faster and faster, but you will never go fast enough to feel good about yourself, it will always be just out of reach. It's like, "When I climb that next mountain, that next ridge, then I'll feel good about myself."
We talk about identity a lot on Beyond the Crucible, there is the tendency to feel like, let's say if you're in the corporate world, "Gosh, when I get to vice president, I'll feel good about myself. Well yeah, that was pretty good, but I'm really looking for senior vice president. Okay, that's good, but executive vice president. COO. CEO. Chairman and CEO." I mean where does it end? You keep moving up the ranks, if you're lucky enough or good enough to get there, and it's never that satisfying, but you fool yourself into thinking, "Ah, but that next promotion, that next mountain, then I'll feel good." It's never the case, and you really got to separate your identity from what you do, and not that many people do that well. I can think of two people in the last few months that we came across, Stephanie Woollard and Jason T. Smith, both Australians, funnily enough.
Gary Schneeberger:
Of course, the 2872nd and 73rd Australians we've had on the show.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. Yeah, we're still trying to get to 3000. So Stephanie Wollard founded an organization, Seven Women, that strives to help impoverished women in Nepal, I believe. She was helping a lot of people, and after quite a number of years she felt it was time to hand over the reins to local people, and I asked her, "Stephanie, so how was that?" She says, "It was fine." "You built this thing up from nothing." "Yeah." "So I guess you don't have your identity wrapped up in what you do." I mean, she really didn't. She has a strong faith, but still.
Jason T. Smith, similar thing in a sense. He's founded one of Australia's biggest physical therapy business, and eventually sold it for quite a lot of money, and I said, "Jason, how did you not have your identity wrapped up in it?" He says, "Well, I always wanted to be a medical missionary, but I didn't quite have the marks to get into medical school, so this is my second choice." It wasn't really what he thought he wanted to do, but clearly if you believe in the providence of God, somehow this was exactly what God wanted him to do.
So those were pretty stunning, neither of them, and they've both been incredibly successful in their different businesses and missions, but they didn't have their identity wrapped up in what they did. It floored me.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I'm an English major, so words mean everything to me. You mentioned the word enough, it's hard, some people don't think about it's not enough, and it occurs to me that ... Let me hold this up as an example. I'm not a very good example guy, but here's an example. Here's the word enough, on one side it can tip this way, this is not enough, and that can be dangerous as you just described, but it can also be dangerous if it goes this way, "Oh, this is enough." Right? If you have the attitude, "That's enough. I don't have to try anymore. I'm done," I mean, it's a very delicate balance, to my point here, to keep enough in its proper perspective. You want to pursue something to make it as good as it can be, to make your life of significance as significant as you can make it, but at the same time, you can't keep thinking that you're less than, to use your words, if you don't get it the same place somebody else's life of significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Well said. I mean, one of the assumptions I think I'm making here is if you're pursuing a mission and calling that's linked to your deeply held beliefs and values, and you're off the charts passionate about, there's probably not a whole lot of chance you're going to slack off and say, "Eh, we're down 30% in terms of the people we serve because maybe we've got some people in the wrong spots or there's some issues, who cares? Whatever." The people, I think, that we're talking about here is they will do whatever it takes to make that mission successful, they're a 100% bought in so they're not going to slack it off, but the challenge is to feel like all your identity is wrapped up in it so that no matter how hard you try, and the particular audience we're talking to, they will feel like they can never try hard enough. Sleep is optional. Eating where you eat as you're running from meeting to meeting. These are driven people, and it's those people, and there's a lot of folks like that that feel like it's not enough.
Gary Schneeberger:
The blog, folks, is called We All Want Contentment. Here's How To Get It. The first three points we've talked about already are contentment is not found solely in what we're doing, the second point is dig deep into your own beliefs and values, the third point is ask yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to. Point four, Warwick. Again, I compliment you on this, every single time we do one of these, you connect these together so well. The fourth point connects greatly to the third point, and that's this, decouple your identity from your mission. How do we do that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So you've asked yourself the question, "Is my identity wrapped up in my calls or mission?" Let's say you find out that it is, you really need to do a gut check. You need to ask yourself some questions that you may not want to ask, and you may certainly not want to answer, and that is, can you keep going with your mission and not have your whole sense of self wrapped up in the cause? Because if the answer is, "Frankly, no. 100% of my identity is in this course. When it's going well, I feel great. When it's going badly," it's one thing when things aren't going well to feel bad, but it's another thing when your whole sense of identity is wrapped up that you're on this emotional rollercoaster. Your business has a good day and you're feeling unbelievably excited, and your mission has a poor day and you feel unbelievably depressed. That kind of yo-yo, up and down emotional stuff is not good for anybody, that's a sign that your identity is wrapped up.
Caring is different than having your identity wrapped up in your mission. Let's say the answer is, "Gosh, yeah, I can't decouple my identity from my course, it's just me." Then you might be faced with a hard decision, which is maybe you need to get out and hand the reins over to somebody that frankly has a, perhaps a more healthier, developed personality in the sense of they might not have their identity wrapped up in it. Maybe you'd be better in some other organization or other calls where your identity isn't wrapped up in it. But basically you have to ask yourself, "Is this mission about me or is it more important than me? Do I really care about the people we're serving or is this just some ego trip?"
If you answer it correctly, and there is a right answer here, the answer should be, "It's not all about me, it's about the people I want to help. It's about the people in the organization," then it's like, "Look, if I can't cut it in terms of having my identity all wrapped up in the business, if I can't cut it, then the honorable, the character-driven decision, the values and beliefs-driven decision would be to leave."Let somebody else do it, but you've got to be willing to do it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. This idea, the point, decouple your identity from your mission, find your identity within. I pulled a couple quotes. It's funny. They're from three different people, two of them have really easy names to pronounce. The one I'm going to read, of course, has somebody whose name I have no idea how to pronounce so I'm going to stumble through it, but here's what this individual said about this subject. "When we cannot find contentment in ourselves, it is useless to seek it elsewhere, like in our mission," and that was said by Francois de La Rochefoucauld. I'm sure I got that wrong, but that's who said it. "When we cannot find contentment in ourselves, it's useless to seek it elsewhere, like in our mission." I think that's a strong quote that backs up the point you just made.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, contentment has to come from within. Obviously, from a faith perspective within would mean, I guess, the contentment that God gives us when we're fully connected to Him. Obviously, there are ways we can look at this, but yes, basically it cannot come from the external work that we do, external environment, it has to come from within ourselves. There's no easy way out of this. That's where it's got to come.
Gary Schneeberger:
You just said the word soul, and guess what's in point five? I'm telling you, he does this to me all the time, folks. He does this to me all the time. He throws me off balance. He says a word, and then it's in point five. Point five is this, either way do some deep soul work and self-reflection. We talk about this on Beyond The Crucible quite often. How does it fit perfectly in what we're discussing today?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. We've talked about the issue of identity, and you've got to decouple it, identity from what you do. This is where if there's a problem and you say, "Gosh, my identity is frankly a 100% wrapped up on what I do, in the cause and mission I'm involved in," you've got to ask yourself, "Well, why?" You've got to do some deep soul work and self-reflection. You've got to ask yourself, "Well, why do I have my identity so wrapped up in what I do?" Maybe there's some hurt or some need from childhood, or from later on that was never fulfilled, and maybe you never got the affirmation, you feel like you should have got the love from your parents, or friends, teachers, friends, and it makes you seek love in other places, seek affirmation from, "Hey, look at what he or she is doing. Man, they're doing so well." Gosh, you are so great, and you just crave affirmation like a man or woman in a desert looking for an oasis. Sometimes that can be.
Sometimes people, not always, but it can be the case of people who strive the most are the ones who are filling this emotional need, this hole in their heart that needs to be satisfied. Again, not always, but sometimes. So you've got to ask yourself that question, and if you find, "Well, yeah, my parents, friends, nobody said I love you. I felt no matter what I did, it was never good enough. It was always, hey, great son, great daughter, that was good." But here's the next step, which to a kid sounds like, "Okay, so it wasn't good enough mom or dad, I get it," whether that was intended or not, that can be the message that a child receives. At that point, you've got some hard work to do. You might need to seek counseling, therapy, coaching, talk with friends and family, but certainly a first step can be talking to friends and family, it's like, "Why do I get my sense of self so wrapped up in what I do?"
If it's an issue of parents, your siblings might say, "Well, pretty obvious to me given the way mom or dad was around us," or aunts or uncles, and you've grown up in the same environment, they get it. It could be a different situation. Maybe it's the people you work with, a boss you've had may have just kind of treated you in a way that's really affected you. Whatever it is, you've got to find a way to deal with it for the sake of your mission or organization. There's also your family and your friends. Anger and frustration leak, and often we take out our frustration and unmet needs on the people we love the most. That's normal, and we pretty much can't do a whole lot about that other than deal with it. Don't deal with it, the people you love the most are going to be hurt. It's absolutely inevitable
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It just occurs to me as you're talking, one of the culprits that leads us en masse to key our identity into what we do, think about any obituary you've ever read. Joel T. Smith, 67, of City passed away. Next paragraph, he was a this, this, this and this. What did he do for a living? That's the way society sort of says goodbye to those who have passed in a formal way in an obituary, they put what they did for a living. I think that maybe subconsciously it can seep into us regardless of those other things that you've just talked about. It's a very interesting perspective. I hadn't thought about it before.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a good point, and it makes me think. You're absolutely right on about obituaries in newspapers, but think about the eulogy at church, synagogue, a spiritual place, whatever it is, tends to be a bit different, and that's when I think of John Fairfax. He was a man that was incredibly successful. He built the leading newspaper in Australia, became very wealthy, very influential. Yes, they talked about that, but they talked a lot about his faith, and what a good father and mother, and what a good friend, and what a good employee. People just said, "This man was so kind. He helped me when I needed it." Gosh, other than funding nonprofits, there was stacks of people he just gave money to that weren't involved in organizations, it's just because.
So they were really focused in his eulogy on his faith and character, and how much he was admired and liked. It wasn't like 90% Sydney Morning Herald in the eulogy. Yes, I'm sure that was there, but it was the other stuff, so you're right. There's a big difference between obituary, where we tend to key on what's my obituary, and maybe we'll talk about this later, maybe we need to focus a bit less on the obituary in the paper, and what do we want the eulogy to say.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I've just written down something that we should trademark as part of Beyond The Crucible, and that's this, live for your eulogy, not your obituary.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
That is wisdom, and it leads, I did it to myself, that leads into the next point. The next point, point six in this blog is make a decision that you will no longer have your identity, here's those words again, wrapped up, you will no longer have your identity wrapped up in what you do. Talk a little bit about why that's so critically important.
Warwick Fairfax:
Life is about choices and decisions. Ultimately, at the end of the day, our life is summarized by what we decided to do about what we chose, who we marry, what we do, who we associate with, what we devote our life to. It's all a series of daily decisions, sometimes multiple decisions every day. So if you're somebody that says, "You know what? I don't feel content because it's never enough in my mission or cause that I'm over the top passionate about. I work 24/7. I hardly sleep, eat, which is not good, or see my family, again, not good, but I'm certainly going at it." Okay, great, let's say that's you, which is typical for people in causes and missions, and you might say, "Well, I think I really do have my sense of identity wrapped up in what I do." Then you've got to decide today that you are going to take a different path, the path where contentment is from within, and not based on what you do or what others think of you.
It's easy to say contentment comes from within, contentment should come from our faith in God, our faith in Christ, our faith in whatever that means to you. It's easy to have that as a bumper sticker, something you notionally believe around the circles that you live in, and pray with, and churches you go to or other spiritual places you gather. That can all be fine, but you've really got to make a decision saying to yourself, "Is what I believe, is this just a bumper sticker or does it mean anything?" In faith-based circles, in Christian churches people say, "Oh, yeah, I believe in Jesus." Okay, great. But one of the things we say at church is Jesus is the Lord of your life, what that means is, more broadly speaking, are your faith and values really the ones that govern how you live or it's just written on a piece of paper? That's the broader translation of that, and that's absolutely critical.
You might have some credo that's on your wall, and a plaque hanging in your home, and, "Hey, I believe in kindness, and honesty, and serving other people. I believe God made us here to be a blessing to others." It can be all sorts of things written in plaques on the wall, and you may look at them and say, "Yeah, well, I pretty much do that never. I just don't walk in line with those values, and my identity is wrapped up in what I do." You just have to make a decision that, "I'm going to live what I believe," and living what I believe means, from my perspective, your identity is not wrapped up in what you are doing, it's your identity is linked to your beliefs. If your identity is linked to your beliefs, then you'll be more content. So is that plaque on the wall, is that just like a bumper sticker or is that something you really do live day in, day out?
Gary Schneeberger:
That segues into, and it speaks a little bit to what we've been doing on our series about the actionable truths of the brand. You can believe something, and it doesn't really come alive until you do something, and your seventh point here is off of point six, pursue some practices that will help you make this decision that you made in step six a reality. So talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's easy to say you believe in something. I believe in God. I believe in Christ. I believe in these sets of values, of kindness and self-sacrifice, and somehow being a blessing to others with the gifts God has given me, however you look at it it's easy to say that. We need to pursue practices that will help make this decision a reality. It really depends on your spiritual frame of reference. It could be daily prayer or meditation. It could be reading the Bible each day or some other spiritual writings, or a book of wisdom that you feel really this sums up who you are. That's something that I do from my Christ-centered perspective.
I have something we use at church, Chapter A Day, in which it gives you a scripture, it gives you a passage in the Bible. I'll read that chapter, and there'll be one verse that I key in on, to the point, and I reflect on it. What does it mean to me? I pray about it. I have scripture memory that I go over each day. I have a series of practices. Now those are the internal ones, the external practices could be going to a church or a like-minded spiritual group, again, that could take different forms, get together with like-minded people that share your beliefs and values.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's point seven in the blog, folks. If you've been with us for any length of time, you know that the captain has now turned on the fasten seatbelt sign, we've begun our descent. Oh, no, we haven't. Guess what? We haven't. There are more than seven points in this blog, just like last month, there were more than seven points. Warwick, I'm this close to asking you to produce ID so I know that it's really you.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly.
Gary Schneeberger:
But this is something, in all seriousness, that you thought was so important that you've added a couple more points to it. So the eighth point to your blog, and the name again, at beyondthecrucible.com, blog is called We All Want Contentment. Here's How To Get It. First point was contentment is not found solely in what we're doing. Second point is dig deep into your own beliefs and values. Third point is ask yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to. Fourth point, decouple your identity from your mission. Point five, either way, do some deep soul work and self-reflection. Point six, make a decision that you will no longer have your identity, those two words again, wrapped up in what you do, and point seven that we just discussed, pursue some practices that will help you make this decision a reality. That leads to point eight, Warwick, get grounded in your new spiritual paradigm.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So you've made a decision to not have your identity wrapped up in what you do. You're pursuing practices. It could be spiritual practices of some spectrum, whether it's Bible reading, reading some spiritual wisdom, associating with people that have your faith and values, so you're making a start. We need to get grounded in that new spiritual paradigm. It can't be like sort of dieting, "Yeah, I dieted for a week, and now I'm sort of back to no exercise, and eating whatever I want." That's not being grounded. Whatever your new paradigm is, you've got a bunch of practices you're putting in place, you're meeting with like-minded people, you're doing some daily prayer, meditation, reflection, whatever, scriptures of wisdom, literature that you like to do, but you've got to make sure you're headed in the right direction. This has become the new norm, maybe a few weeks, a few months have gone by.
Once you start to feel like this has really taken hold, that your inner soul life is heading in the right direction, and maybe you see a bit of a change, maybe you see 20 or 30% less of your identity is wrapped up in what you do, again, either way, you're committed to what you do, that's not the issue here, but maybe you sense, "Gosh, whether we're down by 20 people this month that we seek to serve, we're up by 20, or revenues up or down by 10 or 20%, okay, the company's not going under. They're not closing the doors on the mission or the nonprofit." If you feel like your internal emotional barometer's not going up and down like a yo-yo to the stock market, it's like, "Oh, that was disappointing. We didn't serve as many people as we'd like to, but let's figure out what happened, and is there anything we can do, and we'll tackle it today, and tomorrow we'll figure it out. And if for some reason there's factors beyond our control, okay, then I'll just accept that."
So you start having more of a level-headed approach to challenges, and not all that wrapped up in your identity, that's a good sign. Even if it's not perfect, if you feel like, "Well, I still was kind of pretty frustrated, but on a 1 to 10 scale I was frustration 6 versus frustration 10, in which I'm normally at." That's a win. Perfect separation of identity from what you do is obviously a challenge. Perfection is almost impossible, but you're headed in the right direction. That's really what this eighth point is about, is if I'm heading in the right direction, maybe you have an easier question to ask is, can I continue pursuing this vision that I'm off the charts passionate about, that will lead to a life of significance, which we talked about is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, without having my identity and self-worth wrapped up in it?
If you've got yourself grounded in new spiritual paradigm, all things being equal, it would be easier to say, "You know what? I'm willing to give it a few more months, another year or two because I feel like I'm headed in the right direction. I'm decoupling my identity from what I do. Maybe I'm not a 100% there, but I see hope." Friends and neighbors see hope. If you're on a nonprofit organization, if you're involved in that, the board might be saying, "Hey, Fred, Mary, I think this is remarkable. We're seeing true change. We're seeing less of the yo-yo emotionally. We're seeing you not react if you don't always agree with a board member's advice. You're listening to us rather than say you don't know what it's about because I founded this," and off you go on your rant, how you don't get how important this is, and all that kind of stuff. You will hear from other people, and within yourself, "I'm making headway," so that's really what this point is about.
Gary Schneeberger:
So here's the ninth point, folks, the one that will get the plane on the ground, and that is this, either way, live your life based on your inner soul. Why is that the place to wrap up this discussion?
Warwick Fairfax:
Ultimately, this is the way to find the place that we all want to get to, which is contentment. We want to feel like we're striving for what we feel is important. We're on a mission that we feel like we love. It's based on our beliefs and values. We're off the charts passionate about it. We've got skills and abilities that fit. This truly is our calling. Maybe we feel like it's a God-given calling, but we want to be able to do that, and have a sense of contentment rather than, "It's never enough. There are more people I could help, more revenue, more metrics," whatever it is. When you're living your life based on your inner soul, then you can be content. You don't live to please others or to fulfill your own expectations, which typically is unrealistic. We tend to self-sabotage, whatever expectations we set is typically impossible to reach. Certainly, if your identity is wrapped up in what you do, you know that you've set the goalpost in such a way that you will never meet it, and if you do meet that, well, of course you extend the goalposts.
Your inner psyche, wounded psyche, if you will, ensures that you'll fail to reach your expectations. Its damage is designed to make sure that you don't succeed in fulfilling expectations, it can do certainly. So enjoy what you're doing as a byproduct of who you are and what you believe, but not the focus. So when you serve another, a hundred people, or you come out with something that will serve people in a new better way, enjoy that, celebrate that. Hey, that's great, you can enjoy it rather than saying, "It was all me," or, "My identity's all wrapped up," you can enjoy it because of how it's helping others. It's a different emotion. You can enjoy something without your identity being wrapped up in it, it's possible to decouple that. So one of the things we say here a lot is your joy should come as much, if not more, from the journey rather than the goals which are often unattainable, so enjoy each day. Isn't it great I get to work with a fantastic team? Isn't life great?
Maybe you've got, not everybody has this, but if you have just a wonderful wife, husband, kids, and there'll always be challenges, but enjoy the blessings. Enjoy the journey as you're building that nonprofit or mission, or even it's a for-profit organization that can still be a mission and cause about it. Enjoy the journey. Enjoy the small wins rather than the unattainable expectations. Just enjoy the journey. So when we don't have our identity wrapped up in what we do, we won't be focusing on the goalposts. Yes, we've got metrics we want to achieve, but our focus won't be just on the metrics and the goalposts. Our focus will be on let's enjoy today. Let's make sure we've got the goals, and we try and hit those goals, and if we don't, we'll recalibrate and figure it out, but I'm just not going to focus a 100% on tomorrow and the goals. I'm just going to enjoy the journey with the people I'm with.
I'm going to just be a person of character with faith and action, if you will. I'm going to enjoy treating people well, caring for them, listening to them. I'm not going to be so focused on the goals and destination that I can't enjoy the journey, or have time to celebrate with the people that I love and care about. So contentment means, yes, you can still strive for those goals, but those goals don't own you, you own them. It's just different.
Gary Schneeberger:
Plane's on the ground, folks. Warwick just ... perfect landing on the plane even though we were in the air a little longer than we normally are, but that's okay because there were really good points here. I like the fact that you came back, Warwick, at the end, and really connected it to the idea of crucibles, and things that can be difficult for us, because that's what we're here to talk to people about. Let's go where we go every time we have one of these, and that's to ask you, it's a difficult question because obviously there's a lot of stuff, you put a lot of yourself into this, but what is the one truth, the most important thing that folks can do that you'd like to leave for our listeners and viewers from this discussion of your blog?
Warwick Fairfax:
Comparing the size of your calling with others, your mission, or faith, and character is never helpful, and from my perspective, God does not look at us that way. I've really been thinking about my own faith, and calling, and character. As I think about John Fairfax, yes, his faith was off the charts, and he was such a kind man, and yes, he had this large business, but he was so well-respected and so kind, but it's not about the size of the impact, or the size of the vision, or even how kind he was, or how much faith he had, I mean how can you possibly compare? I can't or I shouldn't, I think would be a better way of putting it, but I don't think God looks at it that way. I think God looks at it, from my perspective, have you been faithful with the gifts and talents that I've given you? Have you followed the calling I've laid on your life? Have I followed the direction that you're calling me to? That's ultimately what matters.
None of us are perfect. We're going to have bad days. We're going to have times in which we were a little snippy with family or impatient, or fell short of our own ideals. Maybe the organization didn't hit the goals we wanted it to. There could be all sorts of things, but at the end of the day, you can't compare yourself to, let's say Billy Graham or Mother Teresa, or whatever the equivalent is for you. There might be people you know that you feel like, "Gosh, they're so much more patient, they're so much a better mother or father, or friend, or employer than I am. I feel bad because they're so much better than I'll ever be." You can go down a negative spiral saying, "Gosh, I can't be like my friend. They're like a saint relative to me. I mean, what's the point? I've never seen them grumble ever, or if they do it's just write it down on a piece of paper because it hardly ever happens." You just can't compare yourself, it's just not good.
Again, the other point is really you've got to find contentment from within, and not have your identity and contentment wrapped up in the size of the mission, and the size of the impact. Contentment should be as much, if not more, in the journey, the day-to-day wins, being with people that you love and respect, being on a journey that you feel like really matters, and just try to treat people well that you're around. Be thankful for every day, whether it's prayer at home, prayer in church, or walk in the woods, whatever it is, just be thankful for the journey. I guess in summary, I'd say we'll never be content if we just keep comparing ourselves with others who we feel might had a bigger impact, stronger face, stronger character than we do, because God just does not look at us, He does not look at things like that.
Gary Schneeberger:
That is a wrap, except for how we always end every podcast that talks about one of Warwick's blogs, and that is where it pulls together some reflection questions, folks, you can ask yourselves, you can ponder from this discussion. The first one is this, how much do you have your whole sense of self, your identity, wrapped up in what you do, including your cause or mission? Second question for reflection, decide today that you will not have your identity wrapped up in your mission, and will pursue spiritual practices that support the you that you want to be, whose identity is decoupled from what you do. The third point to ponder as you process what we've talked about today is this, enjoy the journey and focus on the inner work, in part your character, rather than obsessing about the mission, you might find you actually accomplish more. Isn't that what we'd all like to do? If it's possible for us to do. So, folks, that will wrap another episode of Beyond The Crucible.
Warwick and I have a little favor to ask you. If you've enjoyed the show, if you've taken something from this episode, and previous episodes that have helped you navigate your own journey from trial to triumph, we'd ask you if you're listening on your favorite podcast app, to subscribe to the show, you'll never miss an episode, and to leave a rating for the show, what you think about it. If you're watching us on YouTube, we'd ask you to do similar things. We'd ask you to subscribe to the show, you'll never miss an episode, and to also leave a comment on our YouTube channel so that we can know how you feel about what we're doing, and ask questions when you're there.
Until the next time we're together, understand, we know your crucibles are tough. You've heard Warwick and I talk about our crucibles and how tough they were more than a few times, but we also know this platinum truth about crucibles, they didn't happen to you, they happened for you. If you learned the lessons of them and apply those lessons moving forward, you can chart a course to a new destination in your life, which will be the most fulfilling destination you could ever reach because that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond The Crucible assessment, unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper, or The individualist, instead you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
How Tragedy Awakened Her Extraordinary Purpose to Help Others: Carey Conley
Carey Conley lost husband Ross to suicide in 2014 and her son Cole to the same manner of death just three years later.
After these devastating losses, she tells us this week, she was faced with a choice: To find purpose through despair, or to throw in the towel.
She chose purpose. She found it in helping those who feel lost in day-to-day life craft vision plans to find their footing. She helps people create crystal clear written visions for every area of their life, so they take action every day toward living out their purpose. And purpose, she says, is what gives people hope.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Carey Conley:
Really, truly, there were totally two different instances. My husband in hindsight, had this all planned out. For how long? I don't know, but he had everything in order. My son panicked. I think what happened is he dropped me off at a luncheon and he was going to go into the office and let his boss know he was leaving and he was going to come back and get me, and I think instead he had a sheer panic attack. No plan, just flipped a switch.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've just heard our guest this week, Carey Conley, discuss the unthinkable tragedies of losing her husband Ross to suicide in 2014, and her son Cole, to the same manner of death just three years later. After these devastating losses, she tells us she was faced with a choice, to find purpose through despair or to throw in the towel. She chose purpose. She found it in helping those who feel lost in day-to-day life, craft vision plans to find their footing.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, Carey, it's wonderful to have you here. I love just reading some of your backstory and the work you do with vision and helping young people have a written vision statement and purpose. And you're very active with mental health, think you have a podcast, Mental Health Breakthroughs. Two books, Keep Looking Up, and Vision is Victory: Where Hopes and Dreams Become Action and Achievement. So it's really, really inspiring what you do.
So before getting to what you do now and some of the challenges you've had along the way, I'd love to hear a bit about, what was life like for you, Carey, growing up? Hopes, dreams, family life, before you got into college and work life and all, what were some of the dreams? Maybe some of it may have informed what you do now. So, what was life like for young Carey?
Carey Conley:
Well, thank you for asking. I'm turning 63 in a few days, so to think about my childhood goes way back, but.
Gary Schneeberger:
Happy early birthday.
Carey Conley:
Thank you.
I was pretty creative as a child. I loved to read, I loved to sing, I loved to dance. And I really thought that I was going to grow up to be an entertainer, I really wanted to be an actress and a singer, and my family thought that was really cute, and they came to every little show I did at school. But the message was pretty clear from my parents that they really wanted me to get a college degree because nobody in our family ever had.
So, I met my husband in high school and off to college we went, and that's where dreams turn into reality, right? I wasn't heading off to New York or LA, I was going to get a business degree and get a good job and work my way up the ranks. So a little bit of that creeps into, I think, my desire now as a speaker and a teacher and a coach, because I am on a lot of stages and a lot of podcasts. I don't sing for anybody anymore, but except for my grandsons. But yeah, I was a very creative child, but I really followed a whole different path than I thought.
Warwick Fairfax:
Talk about for you in those early years after college, you got married, you had dreams, but I think just like a lot of people, it seemed like it was hard to find your niche, your place, if you will. I think there's a few job changes, so just talk about, your story seems to be a common story. So talk about your story, Carey, and what were those first few years after college as you're trying to figure out life and career?
Carey Conley:
Yeah. Well, I got married really young, because remember, I met my husband in high school, we went through college together and got married right out of college, and both of us went to work. He went into sales in the technology era when barcoding was first becoming a thing, so he did very well in that industry. And I went into sales and marketing and advertising, and changed jobs about every two years because I couldn't find the job that I loved.
And I had a mentor show up in my life at one of the jobs that I was at, who was the first person to say to me, "Carey, you can create your life to look however you want. You just have to get really clear on what you want." And so with her direction, and this was a pivotal moment in my life, I took a day off at work and with a legal pad of paper, I wrote out very clearly what I wanted in every area of my life, what kind of relationship I wanted to have with my husband, the kind of mom I wanted to be when we started a family, where we were living. And I wrote a lot of things about, could I be an entrepreneur so that I could work from home and have the flexibility that I really wanted? And so I really started dreaming about that and didn't know the direction I was going to take. I just knew that I wanted residual income work from home, flexibility, leadership, and being able to make an impact on other people.
And so two years later, we'd had our son, and I was five months pregnant with my daughter, and I got introduced to the industry of network marketing with a company called Arbonne, which a lot of people are familiar with. It's very much like Mary Kay, skincare, health and wellness products. So I stepped all in, because it checked all the boxes that I had ticked off of what I wanted. And so I followed that vision, and I really believe what happened that day, not knowing it then, but knowing it now, is that God and I were collaborating that day. He was talking to me and telling me, "Here's the direction I want you to go," because I really believe now that he knew what was coming later in my life and was preparing me for that. Because my vision became my purpose, and I taught it to all the leaders that joined my company, and so I had already been teaching it for a really long time. So that was the earlier years and how I really started following my vision and how I became known for what I do now.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, how old were you when you met this person? Were you still in your 20s at that point, or?
Carey Conley:
Yeah, I think I was about 27, 26, 27.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's sort of amazing to me because imagine an alternate life where you didn't meet that person and you were going from job to job every two years it's like, ah, this isn't really satisfying me, but maybe the next one will. I'm sort of reminded of this parable or the story, fable, I guess you'd say, I'm sure you've heard in which this anthill and all the ants are climbing up the mountain and it's like, where are you going? I don't know, but yeah, it must be something amazing at the top because everybody else is climbing there, and you get there and there's nothing. But there's this sense that this current job is not fulfilling me, but boy, the next one is, and you spend your whole life, for many, 30, 40, 50 years, you become CEO, and then it's like, well, now what? There is no further up than CEO, and so it gets lonely.
So you could have spent decades doing what most people do, but that person was a gift because it's impossible to know. Maybe you're smart enough that at some point you would've figured it out, but do you ever think about, what would my life have been like if I had never met that person?
Carey Conley:
It's hard for me to imagine that because I was so determined and still am to follow my own path, and that's one of the biggest things I teach because it's so hard for people, especially the older they get to really, really follow their heart's desires and their path that they really want to follow.
Probably what would've happened, when I was in college, I was in a sorority and obviously still dating my high school sweetheart there, and everybody knew that my husband Ross was going to be successful. So my sorority sisters all thought that I was going to go off to be a country club wife. So most likely when we started having the kids, I would not have been working, but I would've been doing, running something somewhere, because I just have the natural leadership. I just step into a room and I want to step into helping and organizing it. Right? I'm not really good with sitting in the background. So I don't know, I would've been... And that could have been fun, but not fulfilling long-term. It's not a purpose, it was just would've filled my time.
Warwick Fairfax:
So life was going well, you had a good job, your husband had a good job. You were being very successful at Arbonne and mentoring, teaching people. So in one sense, do you look back sort of pre crucible saying, life is pretty much working out the way I was hoping it would? I mean, this is great, it's not perfect, but it's pretty good. Did you feel that was the way that life was like at the time?
Carey Conley:
Well, we were living the American Dream. We had a beautiful home, great neighborhood, great community, good schools, we were blessed to be able to put our kids through a private Christian school. Just the all-American family, right? Took all the trips together, thank gosh, they're wonderful memories that I have now. Never in a million years did we think that anything would touch us the way it has. So yeah, never in a million years thought anything could happen. My kids were great kids, both college degrees, all the great things, but you just have to be prepared for just about anything, and that's, life changed for me drastically in 2014.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, talk about that. You had two crucibles within three years, so what happened in 2014?
Carey Conley:
So in 2014, I lost my husband to suicide, and then three years later, I lost my 25-year-old son also to suicide. And this has now been obviously almost 11 years now since this all happened, so, no words.
Warwick Fairfax:
No, I can imagine. So talk about not so much the details, but just emotionally, obviously you've had years to think about it. What were some of the maybe confusion or not confusion, what were some of the challenges that your husband were facing that would lead him to even think about taking his own life? As you look back, what were some of those factors?
Carey Conley:
Well, I think we've touched on some of it already. Work, my husband obviously followed what he was told to do too. Got a great business degree, great job, stayed with the company for almost 30 years, was very successful, very highly regarded, and just a really well-loved man. But I think in his heart that he really wanted to do something different with his life and just felt like he couldn't make those changes that late in life. Right? He was too ingrained with the company and we were making great money, and for him to go off and do something totally different, I really think my husband should have been a teacher. He taught Bible study at our church for many, many years and loved it. It was the highlight of his week. But for him to think at the age of 50 that he could leave this corporate job and go get a teaching degree and start teaching was just unfathomable to him.
So I really think he was struggling a lot with his identity, and I think that's unfortunately a really big part of men, I think, is a lot of their identity is attached to what they do and not who they are. And that message was very clear for him growing up and very much a big part of his adulthood. So there was that struggle going on. His company was getting ready to go through a merger, and he wasn't quite sure what was going to happen with his job, amongst a lot of other things. But in hindsight, there were just, I think, years of turmoil going on that I was not aware of.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean, it's unfortunate that men by and large, they don't really talk about what's going on inside.
Carey Conley:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
We're sort of taught, stiff upper lip, be tough, be brave, be the protector, be the whatever. And showing emotion is weakness, weakness is bad. I mean, it's certainly in our generation, it's changed a little bit, but was deeply ingrained. And so when you feel like, gosh, my identity is all wrapped up in what I do and I kind of hate what I do, or I think it was Thoreau, talk about people lead lies a quiet desperation. They're not breaking out on the surface, but inside they're sort of dying a little bit day by day. It's just, is this what life is? And it's obviously when you seem to have a successful husband and everything seems to be fine, you have no idea that this could happen. If you did, obviously you would start saying, "Ross, we need to talk here. What in the heck is going on? You're a determined person. You just keep drilling until the answers came out. If I have to strap you to a chair, I'm going to figure out what's going on."
But as you look back, I mean, it's easy to say, "I could have done A, B and C," but are you able to say, "There's nowhere I could possibly have known"? It is easy in hindsight, you probably met with a lot of other survivors of this kind of event. You were able to look back and say, look, of course, if I knew what was going to happen, I would've drilled down more, but how could you have possibly known? You know?
Carey Conley:
Right? Yeah. Well, you obviously, especially with suicide, you go through those questions a lot, especially in the beginning. Why didn't I see this? What could I have done? I could have prevented this. As the years pass, I've learned that a lot of those feelings fade for the most part because I'm very aware now that even if I had drilled down a little bit more and trust me when I tell you, we had a lot of conversations about the angst that he was going through. I told him, "Look, if you want to go drive a bus, I don't care. I just want you to be happy." I don't think he would've even told me anymore, even if I'd kept drilling, of what he was thinking.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Well, one of the sad things in life that it's hard to accept with our loved ones is, I find just running my own life is challenge enough. It's not easy, and in theory, I'm meant to be in control of my own life. But I mean, life is great. I mean, I have a wonderful wife, wonderful kids, but I get fearful and anxious and angry at times. But our ability to run other people's life is like non-existent. We can influence and try, but I mean, changing ourselves is hard enough, changing other people, it's like impossible. And it's not an easy thing for us, certainly not for me to accept the time.
So let's talk about your son, Cole. So three years later, the unthinkable happened again. So talk a bit about, again, not the details, but how life was like for him leading up to what happened.
Carey Conley:
So at the time that my husband passed, Cole had just graduated from college and he got a job here in Arizona with Channel 12, the new station. So my husband passed in July, cole started his job that August. So once we got through the memorial and I got my daughter back to college, he and I got out here to Arizona so that he could start his job. And I started living half time in Denver, which is where we're from again, and Arizona, which is how I ended up living here, because I love it.
He was doing very, very well at the news station. Again, my son was very well liked, he was a super chill guy, had a lot of great friends, was having a lot of fun. But I think slowly dying inside that job, because my son was also super creative. I think his desire would've been to be in front of the camera instead of behind it, but I don't think that he felt that he would've been supported following a career, maybe in acting or something, or creating his own video productions, which I think he should have done. He had the right job, you guys, he was told, "You've got a great career here." He was ranking up fast and I don't feel like he felt as a young adult that he could take the risk and go do what he wanted to do, even though we had multiple conversations about him just quitting. And in the end, on the day that he passed, he was actually going into the office to tell them that he was going to leave because he and I were going to figure out what his next moves were.
So a lot of struggle, I think, with his identity as well as a young man. And I think that unfortunately there's a lot of that happening with that generation, which is why I'm so passionate about working with young adults now.
Warwick Fairfax:
I think he may have mentioned that he didn't necessarily have a lot of close friends where he was. How much was that a factor in terms of what happened?
Carey Conley:
He actually developed a lot of close friends here. It took some time. I think this is another thing that a lot of people don't really know. There's a new book out by Mel Robbins called Let Them, and in the book she talks about the different dynamics of friendships throughout the different seasons of our life. And she was so spot on when she talks about, think about your entire growing up. You all, as a child, all the way through when you start a job, you have a built in community, you have a family, you have your school, you have your activities. When you go off to college, you've got your organizations that you join. You have all these tribes that are just there.
And when they get out of college, this is very true for what happened to my son, they all took jobs in different cities where they knew nobody. And so a lot of that, the first year or so of him being here in Arizona was trying to figure out where those friends were. And they don't know how to do it organically. I had to literally teach him how to get on Meetup and look for clubs of interests that he had, like tennis. My son was a tennis player. But it just doesn't come naturally in them because they've just been thrown into built in communities. So they are right now the loneliest generation we have, because they really don't know how to figure it out. And because of the internet, they isolate a lot. So it took him a while, but he had very close friends here.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, obviously that's once is unbelievably painful, but twice with your son, and just to think that he was about to tell his boss, "I'm quitting," and get a talk with you about what the next step would be. And you can't help but think, if you could have waited a day or two, this may never have happened. It almost feels like how can one be worse than the other? They're both horrendous, but it felt like there was hope here. The other one is more complicated, in a sense, but here it felt like we were about to make a change together. Why couldn't he have waited a couple days?
I mean, that's again, you did everything. You were standing by him as a wonderful mother and saying all the right things. You're not defined by this job, we can find something more creative. I mean, there's nothing, obviously, I don't know all the details, but it sure feels like there's nothing more that you could have done than you did. But I mean, how do you process something like that? Do you feel like Cole, well, why? We were just about to chart a new course, it never makes sense in a way, but it almost makes less sense. Does that make... I mean, how do you process those emotions when you felt like you were on the cusp of this positive change with Cole?
Carey Conley:
Really, truly, they were totally two different instances. My husband in hindsight, had this all planned out. For how long? I don't know, but he had everything in order. My son panicked. I think what happened is, he dropped me off at a luncheon and he was going to go into the office and let his boss know he was leaving and he was going to come back and get me, and I think instead he had a sheer panic attack. No plan, just flip the switch. Very different instances to process. But I've learned to not ask why, this, why me? It all has a purpose, unfortunately. This is just how it all went down and how I'm supposed to carry it out.
Gary Schneeberger:
You said that after these losses, you made this statement that you had to find purpose through despair or you had to throw on the towel. Those were your two choices. And we say a similar thing. Warwick says a similar thing here, Beyond the Crucible, right? You can go lying in bed, pull the covers up over your head, or you can get out and you can move forward. And you chose purpose, you have said. You enjoyed your business prior to losing Ross and Cole, but you knew the next chapter was calling you to rise to a new level that would make an impact on more people on a larger scale. That was a turning point for you, rooted in the tragedy that you went through, but that's a turning point everybody who goes through a crucible to some... Right? It doesn't have to be as "devastating" as yours. We say all the time, "You can't compare crucibles." That process you went through, that counsel that you would give to others, that's true for any kind of crucible somebody has, right?
Carey Conley:
Yes, yes. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people do pull the covers up over their head in one way or another, and I could easily do that. My best friend retired two weeks ago, and her lifestyle is looking really easy right now compared to what I'm doing. And I could do that, I could retire, but the thing is, is that I, being a Taurus, I am loyal to a fault. When I tell somebody I'm going to do something and I've told the world now what I'm doing and what I'm creating, it would be near impossible for me to say, "Yeah, I'm not doing it."
I also, I have a big mission because I now have two grandsons. So my vision of helping young adults has a lot to do with the next generation of kids they're raising, because if I can help them get through their own storms, which is the subtitle of my newest book that I'm working on right now, I think they're going to be much stronger in helping those young kids that they're raising as well.
Warwick Fairfax:
So in those dark early years, as obviously it's not that far away, but far enough, you've been able to move on and maybe find some purpose amidst the devastating tragedy, but how did you make that choice not to hide under the covers or to be angry at Ross and Cole, be angry at God, angry at the universe? Just this is so unfair, I did everything I possibly could. I'm not a passive person, this makes no sense, it's not right. And you would know better than I, there are people that spend the rest of their lives just being angry and mad and just not being in a good place for them or the people they love is we often say "Here, hurt people, hurt people." And so in your anger, if you go in that direction, that wouldn't have been helpful on your daughter, obviously. Not that you would've meant to, but we're all human. And so, how did you make a choice not to go down that dark path and to maybe go to the path of light and hope? How'd you make that choice?
Carey Conley:
Well, one, it was because of my daughter, she was so strong and still is, and she was starting her life. She got married a year later, started having her babies a year later. I mean, life went on and I needed to be there for her and vice versa. So, there was that. What's interesting is, a lot of people asked me why I was never angry with Ross. I've had a few moments, don't get me wrong, but for the most part I don't feel anger, because when people take their life, what they truly believe they're doing is the best thing for you. So I don't think that in Ross's mind, he was doing this to hurt me or hurt our daughter. It was just, he really felt like he had no choice and that this would be best for everybody. Same thing with my son.
So, anger's never really been a big emotion, although I will say I didn't talk to God really well for about a year. Yeah, because I was like, okay, we can't talk right now because letting this happen once and then taking my son, yeah, that's a whole different world. But I have completely come full circle in that and rely completely on my relationship with him and know that at the end of the day, you guys, we're all going to the same place if we believe, and I know they're there.
Warwick Fairfax:
You've obviously turned what you've been through as a vehicle for helping others. You can't stop every tragedy, none of us. You can do what you can to minimize it. One life saved is, I don't know if it's enough, but one life saved is significant. It's very significant. And I'm sure you probably have thought that with what you do with your podcast, Metal Health Breakthrough. So talk a bit about your mission in life, and nobody wants what you've been through, but it's helped you identify with and console others you probably wished you weren't in a position to have the knowledge to console, that's not a mission you signed up for. Who would want that mission? But yet, talk about how these devastating tragedies have given you a mission and talk about what that is and why you're so passionate about it.
Carey Conley:
Because it's working. Another example is when I started bringing young adults onto my podcast about a year and a half ago. And it was so interesting to me and how much I love doing that, to have them come on and be so transparent about how they're feeling about their life and for them to allow me to hot seat coach them a little bit, and send them out with some hope on a better vision for their life and their future, and to be able to take some baby steps.
So to have most especially young men around my son's age, have them come to me and say, "You know what you said on the podcast last week really, really helped me and it prompted me to reach out to you and let you know that." So those are the days when you're just like, why am I doing this? I could go retire and go off in an RV with my best friend right now. But, and some days you don't hear those messages and you wonder, am I really making a difference? But just when you need it, you'll get a message like that saying, "I just want you to know that I've been following you and you've been helping me a lot." That's what fuels me now.
Warwick Fairfax:
So I want to talk a bit about this whole concept of vision statements, which you kind of had one early on, and talk about why that's so important. It's not necessarily a blueprint for every micro step in your life, but talk about what it is and why it's important because I found it fascinating, your concept of writing down a vision or a purpose statement. Talk about what it is and why it's so helpful.
Carey Conley:
So I have a methodology that I worked through that I help people start envisioning further out. So I use a timeline of three years, because most people can think three years out. So when I get them to start writing their vision with me and at my own events, I actually get them to write it while they're there because most people, they can take home my Vision is Victory workbook and say they're going to do it and they don't. So I bring them into a room once or twice a year and they actually get an hour to write it, and I ask them to date it as if it's three years out. And after they write the date, I ask them to write how old they will be and how old all their family members will be, because it's very eye-opening when they start looking at that because now it's right here.
And in about a three to five year timeframe, there are some season seasonal life changes. Right? And I get them to think just like I did when I was 28, 27, when I wrote my first vision, every area of their life and what they envision it to be as if it is that day. And to dream really big, don't live anything out, even if they can't fathom how they're going to get there based on their circumstances right here, because I do believe that once they create that, it gives them a little light at the end of the tunnel, a little bit of hope as to, okay, I see what I really want and it excites me and it's inspiring me to now start taking some baby steps a little bit every day.
So when I coach people, what I do is get them to give me the big vision, and then I work with them on reverse engineering a game plan so that they know exactly what lines up with the vision every day and what doesn't. So it's easier for them to do the yes and no thing, as to what to add onto their plate and what not to, and so they can just take some steps.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've said a couple of times in this conversation that it's hard, especially for young people, and all of us can experience this. It's hard to find a path that they want to follow. I, as a stepparent, I see that firsthand. It's hard for my stepchildren, son and daughter to what is it, the purpose, the passion that they want to pursue, and then how do they pursue it? They may know what they love, but how do they pursue it? What counsel do you give people to get them to tap into taking that step? And then what wisdom do you have for how you can put one foot in front of the other and get toward that direction that you want to go?
Carey Conley:
So I'll give you another example. So when I was doing my podcast in a studio, I had a young man in the room with me when I was recording. He was 22, his name is Ethan. And one day in between us recording, I asked Ethan to share with me how he was feeling about his life right now. And he was very open with me because he heard me interviewing people all day long so he felt like he was in a really safe place and so he said, "I worry a lot about money, then I'm worried about..." He had stopped going to college during COVID and didn't know if he should go back to college, that didn't feel right where he should be living. He had a girlfriend at the time that they were working through relationship, all the things. Friendships, what friendships he wanted to continue, what he didn't.
And he revealed to me that what he really, really always thought that he would do would be in video production. But because of that being a creative industry, he was questioning it. Is this the right path? How do I even start that? Where do I get my feet wet? And I said to him, "Do you know one person, Ethan, that's in that industry that if you ask them to just give you some advice and some steps to take, they could give you some steps to take?" And he said, "Yes, I do." And I said, "Can you just do one thing for me and reach out to this person this week and ask them the questions that you want to ask?" And he did that, and now I think he's following his path. And it wasn't easy because he had a lot of voices in his head saying, "That's not the safe thing to do. You should go back to college and get the degree." But in his heart's desire, he knew what he really wanted and he was willing to at least take some baby steps.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, that's so powerful. I mean, I think there's a couple thoughts I have as you're sharing, that it's just the importance of that vision statement. I didn't exactly have that, although I'm blessed to be doing what I love now. I'm very reflective, so I tend to ask myself, is this what I want to do, and what about this? Not everybody's wide like I am, for better or worse. The good part is, I think a lot about things, about why am I doing this and what does this mean and what's the next step? And so, maybe I could have done it a whole lot quicker if I had more of a roadmap. But yeah, just having that roadmap, it helps you know what to say yes to and what to say no, and I think you're right about this. And when an opportunity comes up, it's like if somebody came up to Ethan and said, "Hey, I've got this video production company, and any interest in talking about it?" Well, he'd be saying, "Yes, thank you." You know?
Carey Conley:
Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
He wouldn't have to think. Talk about, there's the vision statement, which is helpful, but having somebody, whether it's a coach, a friend, a counselor, the importance of somebody not to hold your hand, but to be with you to tamp down the fear and raise up the action meter. So talk about, it's hard to do life yourself, right?
Carey Conley:
Well, it'd, yeah. If you're going after your dreams, your big dreams, you absolutely can't do it yourself because every day you're going to want to quit. I'm a big believer if you step into God's purpose, there will be adversity that you will face. One of my favorite books is Outwitting the Devil, about how we meet with all the mental doubt and all the things. So I just really feel like you just have to know what you're going after and just know that if you are really following your purpose, you are on the right path and you're going to need a team of people to pull you through.
So when I stepped into Arbonne, as a matter of fact, network marketing in the early '90s was a big taboo. So all of my friends, including my husband and my family, thought I was crazy for going and selling lipstick.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's like, oh, you're doing Tupperware, Mary Kay.
Carey Conley:
Right, you're doing that pyramid scheme thing. Right?I had to really fight that because there were a lot of people who thought I was nuts and a lot of people who did not even support me in it, begged me to quit. But I just knew that that was my path. So what I had inside Arbonne was a team of leaders that saw me as a leader, and they were the ones who talked me through every day that I wanted to quit. They were like, "You're not quitting. You are meant to be at the top. We love you, you've got this." You've got to have those people.
And I've always had coaches. I've always had somebody who could not only teach me the skills. So when I stepped out of network marketing and building my own speaking coaching business, I had no idea what I was doing, so I hired my first business coach who taught me everything. And was that person who held me accountable to the activity that I told her I was going to do. So yeah, you've got to have that.
Warwick Fairfax:
See, that is so good. I believe that strong people ask for help.
Carey Conley:
Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
The so-called weak people, whatever that means, I've got it, and there are some guys like this. Hey, I don't need to ask directions. I mean, now we've got Google Maps and everything. I'm good. Well, no, you're typically not good because we don't have all the skills in every area and all knowledge. Nobody other than God has that. So, okay, it's okay. So I've fortunately always been wired, even in my 20s I had one or two people that were mentoring me and knew more about the law than I did at the time, so I've always been open to advice. Maybe it's a little unusual for some guys, but if somebody can help me, then why not?
And I guess other things that I use, I'm not sure about yourself, but I'm a big believer in scripture memories. I have a bunch of scripture memories of... 1 Pete 5:7 "Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you." [inaudible 00:37:01]. A bunch of go-to ones a bit like tools. Okay, do I need a wrench? Do I need a hammer? So anyway, I don't know if any of this makes sense, but maybe I'm not as fearful as everybody, but I like to think I'm pretty fearful in general, but I will not let that stop me from making decisions I feel like is rational and God is calling me. Does any of that make sense? Just, tools?
Carey Conley:
1,000%, because I don't know how many times the sentence, "Do not fear," is in the Bible, but I think it's the highest number of repeats. Right? So when we have fear, we've got to know where it's coming from and identify that this is not real. To me, it's an attack.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Carey Conley:
I'm in a lot of fear right now because the leaps that I'm about to take are really big. And so I know, I've just learned that I'm on the right path, and that's what a lot of people don't realize.
Warwick Fairfax:
Given the fear meter is going up, I must be doing something right.
Carey Conley:
Exactly. See, and people think the opposite. They think if there's fear, they're about to do something really wrong and a big mistake, and that's why they back away. And I've learned that if I'm really feeling this, that we're about to make some changes in some people's lives.
Gary Schneeberger:
I have a Bible AI program on my phone, and I just asked it how many times is do not fear in the Bible? 70 times. So there you go.
Carey Conley:
Yeah, yes. Yeah, so the message is clear, gentlemen, right? And I also know that when I'm on the right path, I get encouragement every day that comes out of the blue. One big example is, I'm getting ready to host an in-person event, which I have not done since before my son passed. And it's time for me to put it back on the calendar, it's called Visions Victory, and it's where I bring people together to write their vision and collaborate. And we're being faced with all sorts of challenges right now to pull off this in-person event. But randomly, I connected with a woman who has a large organization and has a facility that I can get for next to nothing, out of the blue. So I'm like, all right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Feels like a sign from above.
Carey Conley:
It is.
Warwick Fairfax:
Carey, you're meant to do this.
Carey Conley:
Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
I almost feel like sometimes when you're going through challenging circumstances, as in you trying it in a new book, new event, it's almost like drops of grace or sort of an oasis in the desert. Okay, got it, I needed this. And just a word of encouragement, maybe a bunch of people are saying, "This makes no sense," but a friend says, "You know what, Carey? I know other people don't see this, but I think it does make sense. I think you should do this."
So yeah, I mean, it does take a team. It does take people to help us through that. And life is not meant to be lived alone, you've got to be vulnerable. Men especially have a tough time, I think there's so much self-help out there that I'd like to think that's changing. But yeah, we need, I love what you say is purpose is what gives people hope. I mean, obviously from a Christian perspective that ultimately that's purpose is in God. But in terms of his specific mission for us, when you feel like, and we talk about this a lot on Beyond the Crucible, when you feel like you are using your skills and abilities for a purpose that you feel like is making a difference in the world, whatever that means to you. It could be cleaning up a neighborhood park and the inner city or something. It doesn't have to be this mega world, it doesn't have to be the next world vision or something. It doesn't have to be on that scale, but it makes you feel like life matters.
And I always believe, and we say this a lot, God gives us from my perspective, gifts and abilities, and he doesn't do it on accident. So if he gives you certain gifts and abilities, you're meant to use them. If you're in a job that doesn't use any of those, probably it's not God's plan from my perspective, because he doesn't make mistakes. If he makes you creative and he makes you a leader, in your case. Well, there's a reason he did that. He wants you to use that for some grand purpose.
Carey Conley:
Absolutely.
Warwick Fairfax:
So yeah, people just when they feel like I've got to be sensible, get that 9:00 to 5:00 paycheck and life is meaningless, and I just live for the weekend to play golf or hang out with my friends, and that's okay, but a life without purpose and meaning is empty. So when you're talking with young people and some, unfortunately not against parents, but some parents are not helpful. Ditch the dreams, be sensible. Okay, well, can you keep the dream and find a way to be sensible? Can we do both? A little creativity.
Carey Conley:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So do you talk to parents at all? Because sometimes parents can be one of the big problems of-
Carey Conley:
The biggest.
Warwick Fairfax:
[inaudible 00:42:09] kids.
Carey Conley:
I hate to say, I see this turning a little bit now, but it's still not easy that the messages are loud and clear from parents early on that they want what they think is best for you, and what they think is best for you may not be the vision that you have. Right? So, and I think a lot of that stems from them wanting their children to have better than what they had. Like me going to college, I'm sure that the message was clear because my parents did not go to college, and so they wanted me to have that education. So, and unfortunately, our schools are still very much wired to, okay, so you want to be a writer? Cute, but we're going to groom you to go into the medical industry because by the time you get out of school, there's going to be a huge need for that. Starting at age five, when they start going to school more than they're at home playing, a whole different message becomes ingrained. And so the paycheck becomes the non-negotiable in their mind.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, as we begin to wind down in this conversation, obviously mental health is a huge focus for you. I'm sure you desire to get people before they're even thinking about what sadly your husband and son did. What are some key things, certainly for young people, that just to begin to get them on the right path so they don't even get to those ideation thoughts that are so... Once you have those ideation thoughts, I mean, who knows? You probably know more than me what happens after that, you don't want to even get to the ideation stage. So, what are some of the things that's a young person that maybe confused, maybe they don't have supportive parents. They say, "Do I go to college? Do I go to trade school? My parents want me to be sensible. I don't even know what that means," and they're just confused? Sea of confusion.
Carey Conley:
Yeah. Well, you've said it a couple of times, and I'll use myself as example. So when I wanted to step into network marketing, I had a really great job and my son was two and I was five months pregnant. And so for a while, I stayed in the job and built my business on the side, to where I could get it to the level that I needed to be to be able to let go of the job and still cover the bills that I was paying in the household. So I had a game plan and I mapped it out so that I can go to my husband and say, "Okay, here's what I want to do and here's how I'm going to do it, and I'm going to shoot to get to this level in the company." My goal was to get to the first level in Arbonne by the time my daughter was born, so I had three months to do it.
And so that's what I did, is I just asked the leader, the one and only Mercedes driving VP in Arbonne in Colorado at the point, "How do I do this?" And she said, "If this is where you want to be, this is the activity you need to do every day, every week, every month consistently." And I followed it because I had a game plan of shimmying out of where I was at the job. So you just have to have a plan and just take some baby steps like I said, every day. Get the support around you of the people who will support you, like I had the leaders in Arbonne who were saying, "We've got your back. We see you, and we're going to be here for you every step of the way." So you need those people too. And just know that that desire that's tapping at your heart is never going to go away. It's there for a reason. If that desire is there, God put it there, and you have everything you need to follow it out.
Warwick Fairfax:
That is such good advice. Rather than just jump and hope, jump but have a plan and make sure that plan is connected with your passion and purpose, and you have a support team. I mean, those, and obviously I'm sure this is all in your materials, but there are some key building blocks for creating a life that you love, right? Jump with the plan, make sure it's satisfying your passion and purpose, and I think from our perspective, some broader purpose that helps others, and have a team that will help you, cheer you and offer you advice. All of those things greatly increase your chances of success.
Gary Schneeberger:
Speaking, folks, of having a plan, the captain of our plane has a plan. He may have heard he just turned on the fasten seatbelt sign indicating we are about to begin our descent into landing this conversation, but we're not there yet. And before we get there, I would be remiss, Carey, if I did not give you the opportunity to let our listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you and the services you offer. So, where can they find you and interact with you?
Carey Conley:
Everything is on my website and it's just CareyConley.com. My podcast is there, the resources that I have are there, how to connect with me. Pretty soon there'll be information about the event that I'm having later this year. So, that's usually the best place to go, my books, etc.
Gary Schneeberger:
As a guy whose last name is Schneeberger and no one can spell it, co-hosting a podcast with a guy whose name is Warwick and the W in the middle is silent, how do they spell your name just so they can get [inaudible 00:47:31]?
Carey Conley:
Good question. C-A-R-E-Y C-O-N-L-E-Y.
Gary Schneeberger:
Fabulous. Speaking of our host, Warwick, as always, the prerogative of the last question or questions is all yours.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Carey, as I'm thinking about our conversation and what we've talked about, you focus a lot on mental health, young people. What's your biggest dream for young people that's been at the core of your vision as you're moving forward?
Carey Conley:
That's that these dark thoughts they have don't end up coming to fruition. The movement, this community that I'm building is really a movement towards changing the trajectory of suicide and even having that as an option, because unfortunately, it's getting younger and younger. There are nine-year-olds taking their lives. I mean, it's just, it's got to stop. So, we just have to really change this idea that it's even an option.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject's been spoken. And our guest, Carey Conley just spoke the last word on this subject.
Warwick, we just had a very in-depth and spirited conversation with Carey Conley, our guest, who just went through some truly terrible crucibles. There's a lot of stuff to unpack there, but what one or two things really stood out to you about what Carey shared?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean, Carey Conley was so inspiring. I mean, what she went through is just hard to comprehend how you could possibly get over losing her husband, Ross, to suicide in 2014, and then losing her son, Cole, three years later in 2017. I mean, how you come back from that is, it's hard to imagine. It's hard not to think, could I have seen the signs with my husband's frustration at his job or feeling like this is not the life I want to live? And then with her son, Cole, he really didn't want to be in the job he was in, and tragically was talking with his mother. They had the beginnings of a game plan of how he could shift into a different career, and just almost on the cusp of a positive change, he had this sudden reaction and without any plan, just takes his life. So it's just, both are different circumstances but both are just unbelievable tragedies to come back from.
And what I find interesting and inspiring about Carey's story is she said, "After these devastating losses, I was faced with a choice. I had to find purpose through despair, or I had to throw in the towel." And as she says, she chose purpose. She has come with a whole mission of podcast helping young people, especially Mental Health Breakthroughs. She has two books, Keep Looking Up, and then Vision is Victory: Where Hope and Dreams Become Action and Achievement. She talks about how purpose is what gives people hope.
So she really tries to come alongside young people who are often fearful and confused and give them hope. They sometimes maybe often have parents that love them, but say, "Be practical," which tend to tends to scratch the dream. And just helping young people just cling on to their dreams, not just jump without a plan. I mean, when she left the job she had and worked for Arbonne, which is I guess a healthcare wellness network marketing firm, she had a whole plan so that before she made the full-time jump from her current job, she would have enough money coming in to make it all work. So it wasn't my jump mindlessly.
So I love what she does, helping young people realizing that, yes, I'll have fear, but what's one person you can talk to? What's one step you can take? And really having a team. She had a team at Arbonne when she first started there, a team of people that were with her and said, "We've got your back." So she has a methodology and tools to combat fear, to have a team around you, and really to make those steps to begin to change your life and move it in a positive direction. So I love what she does, and she has an incredible mission, and she's definitely not let her worst day, her worst two days, define her.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, and I mean, I was struck by just how similar what she does and what we do at Beyond The Crucible is. I mean, her big focus is helping people map out a vision for their life. And my goodness, if there's a word that we say more than any other, it's pretty close to vision, is that word. I mean, there's a lot of similarities between what she's doing, helping people draft out a written vision for their lives, and what we talk about, about how your vision must flow from your passions and your talents, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, certainly some similarities. We talk about when you go through a crucible that didn't happen to you, it happened for you. What are the lessons you can learn from your crucible? Maybe it was mistakes you made. If it was something, loss or something that happened to you, maybe there's the seed of a vision. Maybe you can help people avoid what you went through or recover from the things that you've had to recover from. So, there can be seeds of a vision in that crucible. We want to make sure that that vision lines up with your beliefs and values, that it uses your skills and abilities. And we believe that a vision that's sustainable, that you can persevere through the inevitable setbacks, has to be a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So there were definitely common elements of vision and passion between what Carey does and what we do.
Yeah, that it is remarkable, that just this notion of a vision statement, it may not be, it's probably more of an impressionist painting than photorealism. You may not figure out, this is what I'm going to do every day for the next 50 years and certain milestones, but you might have a sense as she did that she wanted to help people map out the vision for their lives. She had a vision, she was living her vision. She didn't quite know how to get there but as we say off and on on Beyond the Crucible, what's the first step? What's the first action you need to take? What's the first person you need to sit down and have lunch with? Okay, can I just have an hour of your time, half an hour, I'll buy lunch, but I'd love to learn about what you do and just an informational session. People love to give advice. People love to share what they do to help somebody else, help the younger people.
So yeah, she definitely has a roadmap and a philosophy, and it's just inspiring. And it's tragic what she's been through, but yet she has definitely not let her worst days define her. And it's just inspiring what she does and what she continues to do. And she has fear, she is about to launch in new initiative, an in-person event, and she's fearful, but she's not letting her fear stop her from doing what's on her heart.
Gary Schneeberger:
So until the next time we're together, folks, Warwick and I have a couple of favors to ask you. One, if you've enjoyed this conversation, if you've taken some tidbits away from it, we ask you if you've watched it on YouTube, to subscribe to us on YouTube to Beyond The Crucible and leave a comment. Talk to us about what it is you enjoyed about this conversation with Carey and any of the shows that you may have listened to. And also on your favorite podcast app, please subscribe to the show, you'll never miss one. And let us know, rate the show, let us know what you think about it.
And until that next time that we are together, please remember, we know your crucible experiences are hard. My goodness, we talked about some very hard crucibles that Carey has gone through, but you also heard folks, even devastating crucibles are not the end of your story. They certainly were not the end of Carey's story. In fact, if you apply the lessons and you dive into the things that those very difficult circumstances can teach you, it can lead to the best part of your story because where it takes you is to a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or the Individualist, instead, and uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit Beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Life can be confusing. Finding a life you love, a calling you feel off-the-charts passionate about, is not easy. We can be discontented when we are not living a life we love and are trying to satisfy the expectations of others, including friends and family. We can feel trapped in a life that we don’t want to lead. But even when we are leading a life we feel called to, with a mission that we feel is important and that we believe will lead to a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, there can still be problems. We might feel that we could so much more. There are so many people who need our help. We could do so much more for so many. We are letting ourselves and others down. We are not content.
It is possible to be discontented irrespective of the situation. And it is possible to be content in many different situations. So how do we find contentment?
1. Contentment is not found solely in what we are doing. No matter how noble the cause, contentment is not found in that cause. It is found within.
2. Dig deep into your own beliefs and values. Many major religious ways of thought and spiritual perspectives teach us that contentment is not found in things or as the Bible says in the things of this world.
3. Ask yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to. If the answer is yes, you have a problem. Contentment will be virtually impossible in this case. It will always tend to feel like you are not doing enough. You’re disappointing yourself and others. You are on a treadmill that you can’t get off – and, if anything, is getting faster.
4. Decouple your identity from your mission. You really need to do a gut check. Can you keep going with your mission and not have your whole sense of self wrapped up in the cause? If the answer is no, you may be faced with a hard decision. You might need to consider getting out and handing your mission to someone else. Isn’t the mission about more than you? If you truly care about the success of the mission and it is not about you, then you should be willing to hand it over to someone else.
5. Either way, do some deep soul work and self-reflection. Ask yourself why you tend to get your whole identity so wrapped up in what you do. Is there some hurt or some need that was not met growing up? You might need to consider counseling, or at least coaching, depending on the issue. At a minimum, talk to some friends and family about why you get your sense of self so wrapped up in what you do.
6. Make a decision that you will no longer have your identity wrapped up in what you do. Life is made up of a series of decisions. Decide today that you are going to take a different path, the path where contentment is from within and not based on what you do or what others think of you.
7. Pursue some practices that will help to make this decision a reality. Depending on your spiritual frame of reference, have a daily practice of prayer or meditation, start to daily read the Bible or some other spiritual writings you feel drawn to. Associate and get involved with other like-minded people who can support you becoming the you you want to become. This could be groups at church or some other spiritual groups.
8. Get grounded in your new spiritual paradigm. Once you feel that your inner soul life is heading in the right direction, you have a decision to make. Can you continue pursuing the vision that you are off-the-charts passionate about that leads to your life of significance without having your identity and self-worth wrapped up in it?
9. Either way, live your life based on your inner soul. Don’t live to please others or to fulfill your own unrealistic expectations. Enjoy what you are doing as a byproduct of who you are and what you believe. Focus more on the joy of the journey rather than continually striving for goals which can often be unattainable. When our identity is wrapped up in what we do, we continually the move the goalposts, which will virtually ensure we will never be satisfied.
Life is about the journey not just the destination. Achieving our goals and making our mission and vision become reality is not the only thing that is important. It matters a great deal who we are and how we treat people along the way. We are actually defined by who we are, our character, which is often measured by how we show up to others and how are with them. We may indeed achieve some great goals and our mission may succeed beyond our wildest dreams. But at the end of the day, when people are looking back at us, if we have lived our life rightly, people will remember more than what we achieved, they will remember who we were.
Reflection
How much do you have your whole sense of self, your identity, wrapped in what you do, including your cause or mission?
Decide today that will not have your identity wrapped up in your mission and will pursue spiritual practices that support the you that you want to be, whose identity is decoupled from what you do.
Enjoy the journey and focus on the inner work, in part your character, rather than obsessing about the mission. You might find you actually accomplish more.
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
We take a look this week at the fifth actionable truth our research has shown us helps you move from trial to triumph: character.
It’s one thing to have beliefs and values, it’s another thing to live them out. So we have to make a choice. Are our beliefs and values going to be a bumper sticker or something hanging on a corporate wall … or are they going to be real? That’s the sum and substance of this week’s conversation.
To come back from our crucible, we really need to live what we believe. That is a critical step on the journey to getting beyond our crucible and leading a life of significance.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. To move beyond your crucible, it's not enough to know what your beliefs and values are. You have to live them. And this is where character comes in and it's so important. One way of putting it, as we've discussed is character is your belief system in action. So, think about back to that pit analogy. You might say you have beliefs and values, but if that's not making a difference in how you live, I guess I still have this image in my mind that you're still stuck in the pit.
Gary Schneeberger:
Still stuck in the pit, knowing what you believe, the values you hold most dear, but not living them out loud. The antidote to that, we discussed this week in our ongoing look at how our actionable truths accelerate your journey from trial to triumph, is character. Putting into practice what you say is most important to you, walking the walk that you talk, is the key to a life of character that will fuel your life of significance.
Warwick, we have landed on another of our episodes of what we call The Series Within the Show, and this is on our Beyond the Crucible Roadmap. And this is, folks, just to refresh your memories. This is not an entirely new way, but a more laser-focused way of helping you get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity. And we've named it, as I said, the Beyond the Crucible Roadmap.
We describe it this way and I'm going to read it directly off my notes so I get it right, and that is this, how we help people turn their worst day into their greatest opportunity. We provide the essential actionable truths that inspire people to inspire, hope, enable, and equip them to write their own life-affirming story. The roadmap has been built from our proprietary statistically valid research into how people experience crucibles and what we've learned from our experience and the experience of our podcast guests on what it takes to turn trial into triumph.
And the most revolutionary news for us in all of what I've just said, folks, is in analyzing this roadmap, we identified what we're calling the actionable truths of the brand. To pass these life-affirming truths along to you, our listeners and viewers, we are going to do what I said at the outset, our series within a show. Once a month, we're going to unpack some more actionable truth for you to apply to your crucible experience and your bounce back from your crucible experience. So Warwick, as I always do when we have these kinds of episodes, I'm going to ask you why actionable truths? What do we mean by that term?
Warwick Fairfax:
So at Beyond the Crucible, our focus is always how do you get beyond your worst day to lead a life of significance? That's what we're about. That's what our mission is. And we have what we call Beyond the Crucible Roadmap that helped you go from trial, in other words, your crucible, to triumph or what we call a life of significance. A life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So the question is, well, how do you get there from worst day to triumph, from crucible to a life of significance? And we've found that there are 10 actionable truths that we view as catalysts that help propel you forward on your journey to get from your worst day to a life-affirming vision. A time when you're actually triumphing and you're living a life of significance. So these actionable truths have always been implicit in our thinking. You can find them in my book, Crucible Leadership. But now, we're really drawing them out to making them explicit and really helping folks understand how do you go from your worst day to a life of significance? And the key is really following these 10 actionable truths.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting, and we talk about this sometimes here, is it wasn't the first phrase that popped into our heads, hey, I know what these are, are actionable truths. We really had to explore them. And I think it comes out when we have these episodes of just why we called them that. And I want to ask you this question and maybe you can touch on that. How do these actionable truths we have identified, how do they help us move beyond setback to significance?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's a good question. And really, just to touch on what you're asking, Gary, these are indeed truths, but truths that aren't lived out are not actionable. And interestingly enough, this whole thought about a truth being lived out will come up a bit or a lot in our discussion.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good foreshadowing work. Good foreshadowing.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, this particular actionable truth, it's absolutely true that it doesn't have a lot of meaning without it being actionable. So these actionable truths we view as accelerators or enablers, they're almost like rocket fuel for your engine. It's great to have an engine, but without fuel, your car's going nowhere. So they really help accelerate you on the journey to get from your worst day to a life of significance, from trial to triumph. And I think you can make a good case that without these actionable truths, you are not escaping the pit of despair. You are not escaping your worst day, you were just stuck there, potentially permanently. So they're absolutely critical to getting out of the pit, getting beyond your worst day and living that life-affirming vision, that life of significance that we all want to lead.
Gary Schneeberger:
I love the fact that you used the word accelerant because it really is. It really is. And that wasn't something that came out of the initial research on this, it's something that you just developed as we were talking about it, but it really is, folks, if you've seen a Fast and Furious movie, I've seen all 10 of them, they do accelerants in their engines pretty much all the time. They put some nitrous oxide stuff in there and it makes the engines go faster. That's what we're talking about here is an accelerant that will help you propel you along your journey, right? That's the sum and substance of it. It's an accelerant that propels you along this journey.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Maybe we should have just called them nitrous oxide.
Gary Schneeberger:
There you go.
Warwick Fairfax:
[inaudible 00:06:47] need some nitrous oxide. But if you're not a fan of Fast and Furious, you might be like nitrous oxide? What's?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, it's an additive. You can pump into your engine to make it go faster, basically.
Warwick Fairfax:
But without advocating that your average car user put that in their engine at home.
Gary Schneeberger:
Correct. Yes, yes. This is not, take your Toyota Corolla and put nitrous oxide in it. This is something that Vin Diesel wants to drive really fast and really furiously, but that's just an example of how that can work. This is our fifth episode Warwick, on unpacking these truths. And I'm going to read because I think it's important to talk about where we've been so far. So you guys who are listening and watching, you can go back if you've missed one, you can revisit one because these are all interconnected. They all hook together. So, I'm going to start at the beginning. We began to stroll through the roadmap talking about where the trial begins, and that's the crucible. And then where it begins to move toward the beyond, step two, actionable truth two is self-reflection.
Then we turned to what we determined as the critical turning point to begin the forward motion to changing circumstances we find ourselves in after a crucible. It's the second step in which we move into truly processing what we've been through, and that's where we are now. There's three steps in the processing phase. The first step in that which we discussed a couple of months ago, is authenticity. That's the first step of processing, authenticity. The second step, which we did last month was faith. Now, we're going to do a conversation, we're going to unpack what this fifth point is, the last point in the processing phase, and that is indeed, character. So let me pose this question to you, Warwick. Why is character so critical as the fifth step after a crucible in the journey of recovering from a crucible? What's the importance of character?
Warwick Fairfax:
So, if I had to define character, it's really living out your beliefs and values, your faith, in your everyday life. Beliefs and values are not very meaningful unless they lived out. Having them as a bumper sticker in your car or putting them on the wall of your conference room or read about a whole bunch of values, that's great. But if beliefs and values aren't lived out, they're almost useless. They're not really very helpful. So, we believe that people of character, they don't just talk about their beliefs and values, they live them. In fact, sometimes, it's better to actually not talk about them so much and live them.
So, we've spoken about the need to self-reflect after a crucible, the need to be authentic to your true self and the need to ground your journey as you're getting out of the pit in your beliefs and values. In other words, faith. But to move beyond your crucible, it's not enough to know what your beliefs and values are. You have to live them. And this is where character comes in and is so important. One way of putting it as we've discussed is character is your belief system in action.
So think about back to that pit analogy. You might say you have beliefs and values, but if that's not making a difference in how you live, I guess I still have this image in my mind that you're still stuck in the pit. These truths, these, in this case, the actionable truth of faith, it has to be lived out, which is character. It has to be lived out on the journey. So, that's really what character is. It's living out your most cherished, deepest [inaudible 00:11:07], belief and values is your faith. That is the definition of character as we look at it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And speaking of definitions of character, every episode in this series within the show, folks, I have pulled something from what I call Webster's 1848, right? Is that right? 1828. I haven't been in it so long, I forgot. Every month I have to get into it more often. Webster's 1828, Noah Webster's first dictionary, the American Dictionary of the English language. And I pull, here's the definition of the word that we're talking about today. And this one's particularly fascinating. It says, by way of eminence, distinguished or good qualities, those which are esteemed and respected, that's character, and those which are ascribed to a person in common estimation. "We inquire," it says here, "Whether a stranger is a man of character." And it occurs to me, Warwick, as I read that definition, and as I heard you talk about it, that character might be the first totally outward-facing calling card that we have in the actionable truths, right?
If we're going through the other ones, a crucible... I've been through crucibles, I haven't talked about. People don't know that about me necessarily even if I interact with them quite a bit. They don't know about my self-reflection habits, they may not know much about my authenticity if they're not around me much and they may not know a lot about my faith. But your character tends to, as this definition from Webster says, your character tends to follow you around. People know about your character, people talk about your character or lack thereof. And this seems a little bit like the first calling card of our actionable truths. Character is something people I think, know about us, even if we don't know them very well. Is that anywhere near the bullseye of what might be true?
Warwick Fairfax:
It is. No, it's an exceptionally good point. When you say somebody is a person of character, you mean good character, you don't mean bad character. And typically, I'd like to think most people's beliefs and values tend to be altruistic. Yes, I guess you could have a belief and value system in which I'm going to rip people off, crush everybody that I can. It's all about greed and money. But typically, the issue for most of us, it's not that we have bad beliefs and values, it's just we don't live them. That's for most people. So if you live your beliefs and values, assuming that they're good ones, by definition you'll be a person of character, a person of good character. And the way we judge people typically is not so much what they say about how their belief systems are, it's more are they living them out. That's how we assess people.
We're not saying, I just gave you this test on your belief and values, depending on your faith or spiritual background, and you aced that test, that's great. Most people could care less. If you know everything about your religion, faith system, whether it's Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, whatever it is, your average person says, "Well, that's great. I'm glad you have a belief system and that's fine." But they're more interested, are you living that out? How does that manifest itself in the way you treat other people? That's what people are interested in. And to the degree that you don't, they might say, "Well, I'll probably spend a bit less time with you because it's not an enjoyable experience because you're living out something is very different than what you say you are. And I don't know this whole antagonism and crushing people and I don't know, I don't really want to be around people like that." So people will distance themselves from you. So, yes, being people of character, good character, it has a huge influence and impact in your life and others.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it has, right... As we've said, as we've been talking about here, it goes before you, right? People will know before you meet them in many cases whether your character is good or bad or known or unknown. And I just think that's why the Webster's Dictionary is so helpful and why this conversation is so helpful.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And just to your point, people who are people of character, of good character, word will travel. That person, we've heard about Gary, he's a person of character. He's a person of good character. We've heard about him, we know people that know him. Certainly, bad news travels fast. I don't know if good news travels quite as fast, but it will travel and you get a reputation. And so, your character does matter. It's nice to be with people when they say to you, "I've heard a lot of good things about you, great to meet you." As opposed to, "Oh yeah, I've heard all about you." Which typically means something very different.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, for sure. So, let's move on now, Warwick. There are two stages of our research, qualitative and quantitative, I said at the beginning, and they've shown us that people experience, in this still early section of the roadmap, this idea of again, needing to process what's going on. The first thing that they have to process is overcoming fear. How does character help us overcome fear?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's a good question. It's one thing to have beliefs and values, and as we've said, it's another thing to live them out. That's character. It's a strange thing, having beliefs and values inside where nobody gets to see them, that's fairly safe. But we can often be afraid that if we start living out our beliefs and values, and let's assume maybe we didn't so much before, that maybe they weren't like us. You were the fun-loving guy or woman that was sarcastic, put people down, hey, it was all in jest. It was all fun. Of course the person you're putting down didn't feel it was so fun, but all your buddies thought it was just hilarious and maybe you, I don't know, drank too much. Or maybe you cut some corners at work and hey, everybody does it. And you're showing your buddies how to cut corners and wow, that's pretty nifty. And boy, I'm learning a lot from this person.
And then you start changing. Maybe you are not as sarcastic, you don't drink as much, you don't cut corners at work. And it's like, well, hang on, you're going soft. You're getting all boring. Where's the color? You're some black and white boring person if you've got religion, I mean, what's the deal here? And we fear that, that our friends will reject us or we might have a different fear. We might feel that these beliefs and values, our faith, that it's impossible to meet the mark. We're going to fall short. And we might think that maybe we'll feel like we're a hypocrite. We have these beliefs and values, we can't possibly live them. And maybe others that we know well hear about, gee, we have this set of beliefs and values and say, aha, got you. You didn't live it out that time. Maybe you were short with that person, you yelled at them or impatient, so much for your faith, your belief and values. You didn't exhibit it there.
So we have this fear that either other people will mock us because we've changed or that we're not meeting the mark of what we say that we'll do or we feel like internally, within us, that we're hypocrites. We're just not living up to what we believe. So it might make us almost like a turtle. We just go into a shell and it's like, it's scary being outside. Let's just keep those beliefs and values inside us because if we stick our heads out, we'll get mocked by others or by ourselves. So, it can be pretty scary if not very scary, living out your beliefs and values, your faith. It sounds good in theory, living them out and being a person of character. But in the real world, it can be scary and we don't want to be mocked and we don't want to feel like, oh, we're going to fail because we're not going to be that good every day. So, there's a lot of fear involved with living out your beliefs and values and being a person of character.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I think sometimes, that character and faith right behind that, character, faith, authenticity, those things are often in this section about fear, are often at war maybe, with being liked, being applauded, being someone everybody wants to hang out with. Generally speaking, and I've gone through this, we've talked about my experiences in the years I was an alcoholic. I was the life of the party, I was all those things. I stuck my turtle's head inside my turtle shell a little bit after I got sober because I wasn't sure people were going to like the new not imbibing version of Gary. So, I know exactly what that feels like and it was hard.
It's hard to build character after you've had an experience where you've lived a certain way that you weren't exactly manifesting character. It wasn't actually something that was even in you, but then when you develop it to live it out in front of other people, that can be really scary because the fear is exactly what you just described. The fear is, oh my gosh, they're not going to like me anymore. They only like me because of X, Y, and Z, that didn't show a lot of character. That seems to be what's at odds here as we're coming back from a crucible, is these three in a row that we've talked about, authenticity, faith, and now character, seem sometimes they can be in opposition to living a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. The goal of moving beyond a crucible.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, that's really true. Especially if you've lived one way and you're making a change that's discernible if not significant. You have to ask yourself, well, do I still want to be with these friends? Maybe they're living a lifestyle that I didn't really respect, but hey, we're all in the same boat together, so, who am I to judge? And again, it's not about judging people, but we're all doing this together. But when you start making a change and they're mocking you, I think in general, if you have some degree of self-respect, you don't want to be around people that mock you or put you down.
Most people of character will say that a person of character doesn't mock, tease in a mean way. So that's tough. And we will talk about this here in a moment, but it really requires a lot of inner soul work. We say a lot at Beyond the Crucible that the inner work precedes the outer work. Doing that inner soul work saying, what are my beliefs and values? Do I believe in them or is it just some bumper sticker? If I believe in them, shouldn't I try to live them out. And okay, I may not be perfect, but who is? And this is probably a different subject, but related, you have to give yourself grace. We're all human. We're not going to be our best selves every day. We're going to be short, cranky, maybe 90% of the time we do a great job. Maybe a lot was going on and that job you did that day wasn't your best work. Maybe there were reasons, maybe you had a family emergency.
There's all sorts of things that can happen in which you don't live up to your highest standards. It's inevitable that we'll fall short. Well, you've got to give yourself grace. It doesn't mean you're bad in your beliefs and values just because you can't live them every day. It's more from my perspective, the way God assesses us. Obviously from a Christian perspective, we're saved by grace through Christ's death and resurrection. But it's more, as you evaluate your life over the course of the decades, as a whole, did you live your beliefs and values? Yes, you fell short, but if you did some sort of balance sheet of your life, would people say this person has a legacy of love and grace and forgiveness, humility, integrity? Or is it no, this person really has a legacy of yelling at people, ripping people off and fragile ego. What would people say at your funeral?
And really, that's really what it's about. It's not falling short on any given day, it's over the totality of your life, are you living at your beliefs and values? Are you a person of character? So that's really how you got to measure it. But yeah, it's not easy when you have obviously some decisions to make.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And here's the good news, folks, because we all do it. Like Warwick said, we all will fall short of the character and the goals we have for our character. Here's the good news, we talk a lot about forgiveness here at Beyond the Crucible. There can be a precursor to that on the other side of that equation, and that's apology. So when you do fall short of the character that you want to live out, it's most people, and trust me, you can't have an alcoholic background as I have without knowing the power of apology and then without knowing just how many people, an overwhelming majority of people will extend that forgiveness to you when you muster the courage to offer that apology. So it's not a dead end, right? Feeling like you haven't done everything right. No, no. What am I going to do? Apology can make a lot of headway for you in that regard.
Warwick Fairfax:
And what's interesting is often, the last person to offer grace to ourselves is us. It's very often that other people will forgive us, give us some slack, especially if we're contrite and apologize and say, "Yeah, that wasn't so smart. Yeah, I'm sorry." But yeah, I think we have to learn to be better at giving ourselves grace. It doesn't mean you just keep doing dumb and bad stuff and hurting people. That's not true grace. But when you try to change, you're making progress, you fall short. If other people are willing to cut you some slack and give you some grace, we should. That's an area that I think many of us need to grow in.
And why is all this important? What does this have to do with character? Well, if you make one mistake and you are not living out your beliefs and values, we don't want people to just abandon the whole mission and say, "Oh, forget that. I failed two weeks ago." That was two weeks ago. Keep going. Don't abandon the journey to live out your beliefs and values. It's not like one strike and you're out. That's not the way to look at it. So cut yourself some slack, give yourself some grace that will actually help you be a person of character.
Gary Schneeberger:
Absolutely. Let's move on now to the second step in the process of processing how to come back from your crucible. And that's this, committing to change, right? That's the next step. You've got to commit to change. That can be a difficult thing. How does leaning into your character help us accomplish that?
Warwick Fairfax:
This is where you really have to make a choice. Are our beliefs and values, our faith, our most cherished things that we believe in? Is that going to be a bumper sticker? Is that going to be a plaque on a wall? Is that going to be like Enron, the company that all these wonderful mottos about how to treat people and did the exact opposite? Is it's going to be like a number of corporations that don't live their values? Certainly, some do, but some don't. Are they going to just be something that is inside us but never lived out or is it going to be real? And that's where, especially when you're coming back from your crucible, we need to live what we believe. If we say we have certain belief systems and values, a certain faith, we need to live that out. And that's absolutely critical to get from your worst day, from your crucible, to get beyond and to lead a life of significance.
And as I think about accomplishing goals and our vision, and obviously, it's our hope at Beyond the Crucible that these will be laudable goals and visions that lead to a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And that's great to have a lofty goal and a lofty vision, especially if it's tied to a life of significance. But I think it's, a life is as much about the journey as a destination. How do we treat people? Even if we're accomplishing these lofty goals, and maybe it's cleaning up a park in a downtown neighborhood or providing water in certain countries in Africa or Asia. It could be all sorts of things. Having a company with sustainable products, there could be many laudable goals.
But if in the process of trying to achieve these worthwhile goals, we're snapping at people, we're firing them, it's like, look, this is important, we're trying to help people. You're not cutting it. You need to go and just firing people without giving them a chance. Really, what does it matter what the goal is if you don't have character along the journey?
So for me, character, which is how we live out our beliefs and values, our faith, is as important if not more important than our goals and our vision, irrespective of how worthwhile those goals and vision are, it's absolutely critical. So we need to make a commitment to change, to be people of character that truly lives out our beliefs and values. Yes, we might get flack from our old buddies, we might get flack from ourselves saying, "Gosh, this is so hard and I failed yesterday." But really, the key step is, okay, maybe I'll fail. Maybe some of my friends won't like it. Okay, well maybe lose some of those friends, get new ones that like to new you and respect who you are and cut yourself some slack, give yourself some grace, but you've just got to make that commitment to change.
It won't be easy. Not everybody's going to like it, but if these beliefs and values are going to mean anything, I need to live them. I need to be a person of character. Otherwise, what's the point? So you've got to make that line in the sand decision. I'm going to be a person of character, a person of good character, and I'm going to live out my beliefs and values and that's going to be one of the most important things in my life. Being a person of character. That is not some hypocrite, that never lives out their beliefs and values. Who wants to be that person? How can you look at yourself in the mirror? It's one thing to give yourself some grace from occasional mistake. It's another thing to say, yes, your character is basically a barren desert with the odd oasis of drop of water in there, but by and large, your character is just this wasteland.
Is that who you want to be? Is that how you want to be perceived? Your legacy? Eulogies at your funeral? You want to make life easier for your family so that they find it easy to think of good things to say rather than, gosh, I've got to give a 20-minute eulogy and I got nothing. I can't think of one good thing to say. It's so sad. Don't do that to your family and friends. Make it easy for them.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, we've reached my favorite part of these episodes work. It's my favorite part of these episodes because we get to examine how, who I call Patient Zero. And that is you, the host, Warwick Fairfax, how these actionable truths have helped you move from trial to triumph in your own life. And I'll ask you straight up and very succinctly, how did character help you begin to move beyond your crucible, which you've talked about many times on this show?
Warwick Fairfax:
When you go through a crucible as I have, and I think many of us and many listening and watching will have gone through, it's a huge test of your beliefs and values, your faith, and it's also a huge test of your character. I would say, one of my most cherished values, if you will, is being authentic and living out my beliefs and values. I don't want to be a hypocrite. I realize I'll fall short. But living out what I believe has always been of paramount importance to me, from my earliest memory, I've always wanted to be a good person, a person of character, if you will. For me, my beliefs and values is centered in my faith in Christ. And my faith became really, the anchor for my soul, the anchor for my life at an evangelical Anglican church at Oxford.
And that church at Oxford University, really, it changed my life. And that faith was certainly tested after my failed $2.25 billion Takeover of my family's 150-year-old media company. That takeover, I launched a 1987 after my father died. He was in his 80s at the time, I was from his third marriage. And three years later in 1990, the company ultimately went into bankruptcy. It had too much debt it was part of the takeover. And that whole episode was a massive crucible. Not so much because of the money I'd lost, but it was more that the company was founded by my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax. And he bought the small paper, the Sydney Herald, which became the Sydney Morning Herald when he bought it in 1841. And he was a person of great faith. And over the generations, his company became a very large company with newspapers, magazines, TV, newsprint mills, radio stations. But it was my belief, rightly or wrongly, that the company had strayed from the values of the founder who was a person of great faith.
And so, when takeover failed, it was devastating because I felt that God had a plan to resurrect the company and the image of the founder, and I blew it. It was beyond excruciating. It was absolutely devastating. So, I had to do something of soul work, and I came to believe that if God had wanted the takeover to work out that it would have. And despite my mistakes, which were many, I came to believe that God had a different plan for my life. So, this is really where character comes in. I committed my life to Christ in late March 1982 when I was at Oxford. And would I abandon my faith? Would I just go into my shell? Would I live out my beliefs and values or would I abandon them? Would I be angry at God somehow saying, "Hey, how come I grow up in this sort of challenging family with lots of infighting?" And it was a very difficult situation that I grew up in.
Would I be angry at God? The universe? Other family members? Some of them had thrown my father out as chairman in 1970. So, there was a lot of things that I could be angry about if I'd wanted to and just be a person of anger and bitterness and resentment and wallow in what might have been, what could have been, but what will never be? Yes, there could have been a dark pit that I would've lived in and wallowed in forever, for decades. The company went under in 1990, that's a lot of decades to wallow in, if I'd taken that path, made that choice. But fortunately, and I think through the grace of God, I made a different choice.
I never blamed anybody else other than myself. It wasn't quite as simple as all my fault, although that tended to be what I thought at the time in the early '90s. But I never blamed God. It was my mistakes. So I never drifted from my beliefs and values. If anything, I doubled down and clung to it even more. So in that sense, I really did try to live my beliefs and values. The way it really works out for me in day to day and I talk about this, I guess, a fair amount in my book, Crucible Leadership, if you ask me in terms of character, what are your highest values in terms of how do you want to live that out day to day? I would say integrity and humility. Those are my highest values that I'd like to think form my character, at least how I want my character to be.
And so, integrity is, I think, I would look at it, is doing what you say you're going to do. Being an honest person, being a person that doesn't shade the truth, cut corners at work. The person of integrity is somebody that you can trust. They do what they say. They don't lie. Obfuscate, tell half-truths. They do what they say they're going to do. And humility to me means that they're humble, they don't think of themselves more highly than they should. And given that I grew up with a lot of parent money, at least perceived parent money and a very large family business in Sydney, Australia, people don't tend to think of people like that as humble. And so, it was really important to me to be a humble person, to not think of myself as any better than the next person.
We're all different. We all have different upbringings. Just because you grew up poor or wealthy or whatever background, that's really not the issue. It's more the character of your heart that matters. So integrity and humility were absolutely crucial. And obviously, when you grow up in a wealthy background, humility tends to be somewhat uncommon. You don't see it every day, unfortunately. Parent money tend to make people arrogant, also insecure, but certainly, arrogant. So it's always been of utmost important to me to be a person of character that lives out their beliefs and values.
For me, I'm certainly not perfect. I can be short, I can be impatient. That's certainly true. But to me, it matters how I treat people. I try to listen to people. I try to treat people as I would like to be treated, often called the Golden Rule in the Bible, and I try to be a person of integrity and humility. So to me, I'll make mistakes, I'll fall short, but it's important to me to try to be a person of integrity and humility, a person of faith that lives it out, a person of character, every day. I would say it's more important to me to be a person of character who lives out their believes and values and their faith than accomplishing any vision or goal. We have visions and goals at Beyond the Crucible and that's important, but living out my beliefs and values and being a person of character, that's absolutely critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
That question you just answered, Warwick, and that I asked you, I'll phrase it up again. I asked you, how did character help you to move beyond your crucible? Now, I'm going to ask you, how does character help you to lead Beyond the Crucible? How does character, the actionable truth of character, living out your faith in character, how does that help you in what you do with Beyond the Crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's an interesting question. I do try and live what I believe. I try to surround myself with like-minded people. They don't necessarily have the same faith as I do, but they have to have a common vision. They have to believe that life is not about us. It's about other people. It's about a higher purpose. It's about how you treat people along the journey. I want fellow travelers, as we call them, with those sets of beliefs. And at Beyond the Crucible to the best of my ability, which again, I certainly fall short, but it's important to me how I treat my team members, how we treat the guests we have at Beyond the Crucible. We have a variety of guests with a lot of different backgrounds, belief systems. I try to respect everybody that's on the podcast, irrespective of whether I believe in all of their belief systems or not. That's irrelevant.
They have, from my perspective, the God-given right to believe what they believe, to follow their path. That's a part of being a person of character, is respecting them, giving them space to tell their story, listening to them, asking deeper questions so that the innermost truth comes out. That's important to me. Not believing that I'm better than anybody else. So, it's important to me that I try to live these values out at Beyond the Crucible every day in everything I'm involved in. Whether it's Beyond the Crucible or being an elder at my church or... There's a variety of things that I'm involved in, that being a person of character that listens to people, is curious about their story, is not judging them or not mocking them. I hate mocking and teasing. I try never to do it to other people. It's just something that you might think it's funny, but typically, other people, they might laugh, but they don't typically think it's funny, especially if you've got a good one that hits the mark, that there's some truth to it.
Some families feel that's really fun and maybe it works for them, and if it does, without dragging them down, okay. But for me, no. I always try to listen to people and just build them up to offer words of encouragement. So yes, it's really, really critically important to me at Beyond the Crucible and with my family and elder at church and everywhere that I try to my utmost ability, live out my beliefs and values and be a person of character. I'd say that's, I probably shouldn't say this, but likely is more important to me, than achieving whatever visions and goals we have at Beyond the Crucible.
Not that that's not important, but it's never enough. With goals and vision, there'll always be another level and you can just drive yourself crazy because it's hard to achieve all of them. But being a person of character, we'll have our bad days, but everybody can be a person of character. This doesn't depend on background, wealth, where you live, who you're married to, how many kids you have, none of that is relevant. Everybody has the ability today to be a person of character, live out their beliefs and values. It's a choice. It's a lifestyle. It's a decision. You just have to say, yes, I'm going to fail, but I will be a person of character. I will be somebody who people respect and the right kind of people want to be around.
That's completely possible. You can do it today. It doesn't take a six-month or a five-year training program. You don't need a PhD. How do you do this again? And what is this like? And I get it. I need a lot more instruction. I need a lot more coaching. It's a decision. It's an action of the will to be a person of character. Everybody can do it. It's just saying, I'm going to live what I believe. I'm not going to be hypocrite. I'm not going to pull people down. I'm going to be a person of character. Everybody can do that today.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, I don't say this to you often on the show, but I'm going to say it now. You were wrong when you said you probably shouldn't have said that because you not only made a very important point for folks who were listening and watching to know, but you also... It doubled as the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign indicating that we've begun our descent to end our conversation. Before we do end the conversation, now, Warwick, I'm going to ask you what I always ask you to do at the end of one of these episodes, and that is, hey, we've covered a lot of ground here. What's one takeaway you'd like our friends to come away from this episode with?
Warwick Fairfax:
Having beliefs and values and faith is important. I do not denigrate it. I have my beliefs and values, my faith in Christ. It's the anchor. It's the driving force of my life. I pray. I read scripture. I'm in a live group. I go to church. I'm very passionate about my faith in my own understated way. I believe that thrusting it on other people, it's just not my way. So yes, having belief and values and having faith is important, but faith that is not lived out, that's character, is not very helpful. I would say it's almost a waste. It's pointless. Faith that is not lived out makes us look like hypocrites. It might make us feel like a hypocrite and faith that is not lived out, as I said before, it makes people say, "Well, if that's what a person of faith is, who needs it? Clearly it's something that I don't want."
Why would you want people to say who needs that faith? It's meaningless. If you really believe to your core in those belief in values and your faith, you don't want people to think it's pointless and it's worthless. That will be devastating to most of us. So having character is really, really important. And I think as we've said, to come back from your worst day, your crucible, it's critical to live out our beliefs and values day to day, which is character. The end goal that we have here at Beyond the Crucible is to lead a life of significance, a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. Is it really possible to lead a life of significance without character? Without living out your beliefs and values? I would say it really is not. Your vision, your goal, however noble it is, it will be pointless.
Most people will see, well, yeah, it was a great vision, but my gosh, they walked on so many people. They mistreated so many. It was really pointless. You will get no respect. It definitely, if not greatly, will adversely affect your ability to accomplish that vision. So, a life without character, a life without living out your beliefs and values, it's a pointless life. That's a life that nobody wants to live. That's a legacy and a funeral service and a eulogy that wherever we are in the next life, if you look at it, if for some reason, you can look down or maybe heaven forbid, it's look up and listen to that eulogy, it won't be pleasant. We want to be people of character. We want to live out our beliefs and values every day. There are a few more important things in life than living out your beliefs and values and being a person of character.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, folks, gather up your peanut bags and your empty bottles of water because we have landed the plane. Our host, Warwick Fairfax got us on the ground. And remember, as we depart, this is just the fifth actionable truth that we'll be discussing in depth this year, in 2025. Each month, except for our summer series, which is coming up. So each month for another month at least, we will take a look at a new one and how it's connected to the previous one to build out the Roadmap. And the next time, the one we will be discussing, and I'm calling on you, Scott, get ready. Get your best Ringo ready, because right now we need a drum roll because the next actionable truth we're talking about is vision. So until the next time we're together, folks, remember this. We want you to believe these truths that we talk about, but we also want you to act on them because that's what's going to help you move along the Roadmap from trial to triumph. We will see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
His Greatest Adrenaline Rush? Serving Others: John Graham
John Graham shipped out on a freighter to Asia when he was 16, hitchhiked through the Algerian Revolution at 19 and was on the team that made the first ascent of Mt. McKinley’s North Wall at 20, a climb so dangerous it’s never been repeated. He hitchhiked around the world at 22, working as a correspondent for the Boston Globe in every war he came across.
A U.S. Foreign Service Officer for fifteen years, he served in Libya during the 1969 revolution and in one of the most difficult and dangerous areas in Vietnam during the war there.. For three years in the mid-seventies, he was a member of NATO’s top-secret Nuclear Planning Group, then served as a foreign policy advisor for Sen. John Glenn. During a posting at the United Nations, however, his life began to turn. He became deeply involved in U.S. human rights initiatives, including the fight against apartheid in South Africa.
Still, something was missing. In 1980, a close brush with death aboard a burning cruise ship in a typhoon in the North Pacific forced him to accept a deeper meaning for his life. He found it in 1983, when he became and still works as a leader of the Giraffe Heroes Project, a global nonprofit moving people to stick their necks out for the common good—and giving them the tools to succeed
To learn more about John Graham, visit www.johngraham.org
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible.
John Graham:
This voice comes booming out of the storm, and it says basically, "Here you are. You're lecturing on a cruise ship. You get out of this one, you lecture on another cruise ship. It's a pretty copacetic way to earn a living, right? And yeah, yeah, yeah, you helped end apartheid. That's good. But you seem to have left those ideals behind, John. And so you have to make a decision here. This is the crunch point. You have to make a decision. Either you keep on with what you started at the UN and devote your life to peace and justice issues, making the world a better place, and we'll see what will happen out here. On the other hand, if you don't do that, you might as well die out here because the rest of your life won't be worth living."
Gary Schneeberger :
That's our guest this week, John Graham, describing the moment he thought he was going to die during a fire on a cruise ship in the middle of a typhoon. On a lifeboat losing hope that he would be rescued, he says that voice he describes shook him, but not because of what it said to him, but because of what it said about him. A seeker of adventure since age 16, crisscrossing the globe in search of his next jolt of adrenaline, he took the voice's exhortation to heart, and stopped living for himself and began living to serve others. That's the life of significance he's built over more than 40 years now through his work with the Giraffe Heroes Project.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, welcome, John. It's so good to have you. I really enjoyed watching the video and just learning a bit about you from stuff on the website and other sources, and you've lived a fascinating life, really a life of adventure. It's hard to believe one individual could have as many experiences as you have, which is just incredible. And I understand you grew up in Washington state, I think I saw somewhere in the Tacoma area.
So I'd love to hear a bit about the backstory of were there clues in your childhood, your upbringing, that led you to being such an adventurous person who done things that most of us have never even thought of doing, but you've just had a remarkable journey. So any clues in your childhood as you look back, saying, "Well, I can see how I ended up where I ended up and doing what I'm doing"?
John Graham:
Well, thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here. And clues, you know, it's interesting because Tacoma, Washington, where I grew up, is a very ordinary little city in America, and I come from a very ordinary middle-class family. Nothing exciting ever happens in Tacoma. Nothing exciting ever happened in my family, and I just grew up with a nice mom who cooked good meals, and my dad worked selling advertising for the local newspaper. And I was miserable because I was constantly being bullied by other kids in school.
So I grew up very smart. One thing I had going for me was that I was really smart, but I hated being kicked around by the bullies. And I grew so fast that I was uncoordinated, so I couldn't throw a football or kick a soccer ball or whatever. I couldn't do athletics, and it was a pretty miserable teen for me.
And then everything changed. I won't get into all the details, but by some series of miracles, I ended up when I was just 17 years old at the crucial point, the really beginning of my life, when I shipped out on a freighter to the Far East, and I don't know why my mother, a good Catholic Croatian, let me go because she knew perfectly well that a 17-year-old on a ship in those years was going to face some significant, how shall I say it, moral challenges. In those years, this is like 1959 or so, there were no container ships. These were big cargo ships run by 50 or 60 really tough guys. And they were totally different than my father or the people that I knew in Tacoma, Washington. And I soon found myself on this freighter heading for the Far East.
And the very first night, or maybe it was the second night, one of the seamen comes up to me on the deck and begins making sexual advances, 17-year-old boy. And another guy, a big Black guy named Roy, he must've weighed 250 pounds, he grabs this other seamen who had accosted me, shoves him up against the bulkhead, and there was a magnificent stream of cussing. I never heard cussing like that in my life. He was magnificent. And Roy beats the guy around the head and tosses him down on the deck.
And that evening, I went back to the cabin and I thought, "Oh my God. Oh my God. There's a whole new world out there." And I went up to the mirror and I practiced taking an imaginary person and shoving him up against the bulkhead. And then I practiced cussing like Roy because Roy all of a sudden became the model of manhood I'd never had. My father, I loved my father, of course, he was a nice guy, but a very, very weak man. He was constantly being shoved aside by other more aggressive males everywhere he went, and I was being bullied and so I needed a strong role model, and I didn't have any until Roy. And here was this right as 250-pound guy, and he was perfect.
The next year I found myself hitchhiking in Europe, and by then, I began to realize that the world was a huge, more colorful place than I'd ever thought because that trip in the Far East was, well, it started after Roy. The first port of call was a small port in the Philippines where the ship was three times as long as the dock. We were picking up coconuts, I think. And it was the first stop. And so Roy says, "Come on with us." And I went with all the seamen down to the local little village there where they promptly took me to a local dive because they were convinced they were going to give me life lessons they knew I'd never get in school, and I won't go into detail, but they sure did.
Anyway, I got roaring drunk and a brawl broke out. The next morning, I woke up with a hell of a hangover, and it lasted all the way to Hong Kong. But nevermind, I had seen the world, and the world was not my dad. The world was not Tacoma, Washington. The world was huge and colorful and exciting, barroom brawls and seamen and stuff, tearing into pirates. Whew. And I resolved then that that's what I wanted my life to be like.
So anyway, the next year, I'm hitchhiking and I see from the youth hostel in Zermatt that there's a war still going on in Algeria, the colonial war between the French and the rebels. And so I said, "Hey, a war? That's cool." And so I hitchhiked down to Morocco. I stepped across the border. There's no border because it's a war, right? And I'm smart enough though to put an American flag on my chest so that the rebels don't take me for a Frenchman and shoot me. On the contrary, the rebels were great. They stopped cars going in my direction at gunpoint and told the driver to take me wherever I wanted to go.
So I'm hitchhiking through Algeria, and the next role models I got were a detachment of French foreign legionnaires who ran the power plant and still did in Olinghamville. And there were three guys, and they were surrounded by the rebels, thousands of rebels, three guys with a couple of shotguns and a rifle, but they had tattoos all over the place, and they were French foreign legionnaires, which as you know, means that they probably escaped from a jail someplace, so they were big tough guys.
And I remember we were having dinner out on their patio and a machine gun opens up not that far away, and I dive under the table. They just laugh. "Ha! Oh, no. They try. They're just scaring us. We operate the power plant. They shoot us, the power goes out. They can't do that here." So we got Roy and we got these French legionnaires. From then on, my life path, I thought, was set. I needed to be like these guys, these tough guys. And so everything I read, every movie I saw, I wanted to be John Wayne, et cetera, et cetera.
At the same time, I needed to make myself that kind of a person. So when I went to college, I finally began to grow up a little bit, and I rowed crew for Harvard, and I put on about 30 pounds of muscle, and all of a sudden I became 6'5" really tough guy myself so I could start doing all kinds of adventures. And I did.
Second year in college, I'm with a bunch of people, a bunch of guys in the mountaineering club, and we make the first direct descent of the North Wall of Mount McKinley in Alaska, the most dangerous climb in North America. It's still one of the most epic climbs in North American mountaineering. And we dodged death a half a dozen times, carasses, rock falls, avalanches, rushing rivers, whatever.
And I kept surviving all this stuff, you know? And I became convinced not only did I want to be like Roy and the French foreign legionnaires and John Wayne, I was going to live through it all, that none of these physical adventures was ever going to do me in. So I then began to live a life where nothing mattered but the next adrenaline rush.
So I'm going to stop right now because this is how you... And I'm trying to answer your first question without getting ahead.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, yeah, no. No, it's-
John Graham:
But that's how, that was the first shaping moment of my life, and it took a couple years of absolutely wild-ass adventures. I kept walking away from it in one piece, and it was a frigging miracle, but a lot happened after that, but that was the beginning.
Warwick Fairfax:
I love what you said. I think in the '60s, you were at University of Adelaide. Can you describe your activities there? It's hard not to fall off your chair laughing with you. I mean, so you write here, "I spent almost all my time in mines and prospecting the Outback, drinking beer and chasing girls. Heck, I was 22. A bar fight in Tennant Creek in the geographic center of Australia was memorable."
I mean, you were one adventurous guy. It's just I love your just sense of humor and authenticity, and you were just living your life, just experiencing the world. So that's just, that's incredible.
John Graham:
Well, and I kept walking away from it all because when I graduated college, I was then totally hooked on being an adventurer. The only thing I wanted to do was live a life with these kinds of adventures. And so I hitchhiked around the world, took a year off and hitchhiked around the world, ended up in Australia, as you pointed out, chasing girls and drinking beer. But that was only going to be for a year or so. I still needed to find some way of being an adventurer. I wasn't independently wealthy, so how was I going to do that?
Well, I could have... On the way to Australia, I got a contract with the Boston Globe to write foreign correspondent articles for them, and I did so on every war I went across. So on the way to Australia, I stopped off and walked into the wars in the, let me see if I get this straight, Cyprus, Laos, and Vietnam. Yes. So I wrote stories, and of course I lived through all that stuff, wrote some terrific stories.
So when I got to Australia, I had a choice of becoming a correspondent. The Boston Globe wanted to hire me, but I also got a letter from the US Foreign Service offering me a job, as I passed all the tests, as a US Foreign Service officer. And that seemed like what I wanted to do because after all, foreign service could be adventurous as well. So I ended up joining the Foreign Service as a way of continuing my adventures, and it didn't disappoint because they didn't send me to fancy embassies in Europe. My foreign service career was mostly in jungles and deserts in wars and revolutions, which was perfect for me.
So I joined the Foreign Service, and very shortly thereafter, after the second, third year of foreign service, I find myself in Libya during the 1969 revolution. And oh, I loved it. I just loved it. It was perfect for me. It was scaring the bejesus out of everybody else in the American Embassy because the minute they saw cars burning in the streets and mobs throwing rocks, they got scared. But for me, that was what life was about, mobs throwing rocks and burning cars. I knew I was going to live through it because I always did.
So I went through the revolution in Libya, and then I demanded to the State Department that they send me to Vietnam, and not only that, but they send me to the most difficult and dangerous spot they had, and they did that. I became the advisor to the mayor of Hue, a small city in the northern part of what was then South Vietnam, but it was in the far north, just 50 miles south of a then-demilitarized zone that separated north and south. So it was a very dangerous place to be, and I had a dangerous job. Part of it was simple enough, administering an aide program, but the other half was a political officer, intelligence, counterintelligence, bullets whistling by my ear. And I was in the middle of a shooting war in Vietnam for a year and a half.
But it's toward the end of that time in Vietnam that that first crucible happened. So I'm going to stop here because I'm sure you've got some commentary before I tell you what the crucible was.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean, it's just incredible, John. A lot of people in the State Department, front offices, as they say in the UK, they would want to go to the cushy jobs in Paris, Rome, Vienna, live the good life. For you, it's like, "Nah, send me to the jungle. Send me to the place where bullets are flying because I want an adventure." And there's probably some in the State Department said, "Okay, John, I don't want to do that. Most people don't. So therefore, plenty of opportunity to go where it's dangerous." Right?
So you always had this love for adventure, so you've got to do the perfect thing. You're with the State Department and they pay you to go all around the world and have adventure. What could be better?
John Graham:
They kept promoting me because I was strong and tough and smart, and I kept doing great work for them, and so they kept promoting me, and I became fairly unusual, moving up into the higher ranks of the Foreign Service at an early age because I kept surviving all these situations. But I just loved it and the Foreign Service was great for that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Something happened in Vietnam that was, you've had more crucibles than that, but that was one of the defining moments. That was the beginning of the change in direction of your life. So just talk about what that was and how the impact of the before John Graham person and the after because it seems like you didn't shift immediately, but it was a huge moment in your life. So talk about what happened and why it affected you so much.
John Graham:
Yeah, it's still hard to talk about. I wrote a memoir and the section on this, it took me months to write because I kept crying.
I was in Vietnam and I was then no longer a kid. What was happening to my life was way beyond youthful exuberance. I was stuck in, I was totally committed to a life fueled by nothing but adrenaline. And yet, as I learned soon, I had a softer part of me.
I grew up in a household and I was a very gentle kid. I mean, I had a doll named Sammy, and my mother, a Croatian, basically a Croatian peasant-lover, she had a time clock that about age four or five boys stopped playing with dolls and went on to manly things. Well, I didn't. She took the doll away. I got it back, the hair fell off. I sewed the doll's hair on myself, and I loved little Sammy until my mother finally took him away for good. But there was a soft side to me, and yet the bullies, the bullies forced me to abandon that.
And so I began to, the way I like to put it is like nailing a large sheet of heavy plywood over my heart. And then when Roy and the ship and the legionnaires, and then the life on the Foreign Service and mountain climbing and all that risk-taking, it just bounced off that piece of plywood and I became tougher and tougher, but I also became totally self-absorbed. My life became extremely selfish. The only thing that mattered to me was the next adventure. And it was great because I knew that I would never be killed because that's who I had become. So I kept walking into all these things and loving it.
And then at a certain point in Vietnam, when I was like 28, I realized that I really wasn't a kid anymore and I was there in a fairly senior position where decisions that I was making involved people's lives. And it all came to a head in the spring of 1971 when the North Vietnamese attacked South Vietnam from the north and tried to take over the country. They didn't succeed for three more years, but this was the first attempt.
And the North Vietnamese, all of what surrounded Hue, there was only one narrow road south, but the North Vietnamese had almost surrounded the city. I was inside it. The American military had left under the troop withdrawal agreement. So there were only a few of us civilians still left in Hue, and we were almost surrounded by the North Vietnamese. And we knew we couldn't get out because even if the army managed to send a helicopter, we knew that all our South Vietnamese allies would be clamoring to get on the helicopter and we'd have to shoot them off the skids. So we were trapped, and it mattered that whether or not Hue would fall or not.
The South Vietnamese were really poor troops, and they fell back onto the city until at one point the North Vietnamese tanks were only six miles away from the city walls on the north, and the South Vietnamese troops had broken and ran, or most of them anyway. But my job then was to create martial law in the city. And it was a Kafka-esque situation. I mean, half the population had fled south to Da Nang. The rest were totally terrified. Artillery was booming. The North Vietnamese were advancing, and I couldn't get out, and my fate depended upon whether or not the South Vietnamese could refit themselves and make a fight of it.
But for that, they needed ammunition and the ammunition had to flow through Hue, and the city officials and most of the city infrastructure had fled and collapsed. So my job was to create a stable base area to get that ammunition to the troops. And I realized that I couldn't do that because the city was completely overrun with deserters from the South Vietnamese divisions who had broken and ran, and we had to deal with the deserters, at least I saw that that way.
So I remember going to the deputy mayor, who was one of the few officials that hadn't fled, and I demanded that he set up a firing squad and started shooting these deserters, even though I knew these deserters were all farm boys who had been dragooned off their patties maybe just the week or the month before, and thrown into the front line. They were scared, so they got drunk and behaved badly and were all looting and raping and pillaging and keeping the city from becoming a stable base area. So I figured, "Oh, well, let's just set up a firing squad and start shooting them."
So that all happened one night. And like I say, it was a Kafka situation, me and the deputy mayor screaming at each other, and they set up a firing squad. And I realized that night that here I was, my home was 8,000 miles away. I hated the war. I knew it was wrong and evil. I knew the US was losing. I didn't really give a damn because I was only there for the adrenaline rush. I didn't really care who won the war. What I cared about was me, me, me and another adventure. But now, now people were dying because of my decisions, and those farm boys were the next batch to die because of my adrenaline rushes.
And I just remember putting my head down and just weeping, like, "Jesus, what on earth have I become? What on earth have I become? How can my life... How could I have let my life become that shallow?" And it suddenly hit me, all the adrenaline rushes and everything, it was all for me, and now I was senior enough so that people were dying because of my rush for adventure. And that was the lowest point in my life. It was the lowest point of my life. That was the first crucible.
Turned out that a few hours later at daybreak, the clouds finally cleared and fighter bombers from US carriers off the coast reached the city and blew apart the North Vietnamese army that had surrounded the city and my life was spared. And so I came back from the war, again in one piece, but I wasn't in one piece. I guess now you call it PTSD, but it was worse than PTSD because my whole life had been shattered.
I remember going to... The State Department sent me to California as a reward to go to Stanford for not getting killed in Vietnam. And so I was in California, and I went to a lot of what were then called encounter groups, which were groups where you sat down with other people and you sort of spilled your guts and hoped to learn something. And I did. I went to youth encounter groups, and I began to explore who I was. Was I this vicious John Wayne warrior, or was I the kid that sewed the hair back on my little doll Sammy? And who was I?
And I had a lot of people in these encounter groups who were really brave and smart, and they said, "Will you get off the John Wayne thing, John? We think there's a nice guy in there. We think somewhere in John Graham, there is a useful human being and you're denying it. You're denying it." And I finally began to realize that they were right.
And that was the first time I began to pry this heavy load of plywood off my heart, and I began to be more of a father to the two kids I had, and I began to develop real, genuine friendships and stable work relationships. It took a long time, but I began to crawl out of the self-centered hole because I had no choice. I mean, I was desperate once I realized the hole I'd fallen into and how deep it was.
Warwick Fairfax:
So in that moment, yeah, just to explore that, when you're at the bottom of that pit, what were you thinking? You wanted a life of adventure, but in your lowest moment, who did you think you'd become? How would you describe your view of yourself at that lowest point?
John Graham:
Well, self-centered monster. I had the lowest opinion of myself. I began to realize that the adventurers were great fun, but they were shallow. And the fact is that to do what I was doing, it was important for me not to give a damn about the rest of the world. So I didn't. I was in the middle for years in the Foreign Service of all kinds of suffering, poverty, violence. I didn't give a damn. I didn't care about other people. All I cared about was myself.
Warwick Fairfax:
What was some of those glimmers of, as you said to yourself, "I don't want to be this person I was in Vietnam or this adventurer that only cared about myself," what was the glimmer of a vision of who you wanted John Graham to be? Or maybe the elements that were there that were being suppressed, if you will? What were some of those glimmers of the image that was there that you wanted to let out of the John Graham that you wanted to be back then?
John Graham:
Well, they were more than glimmers. It was interesting because the Foreign Service kept providing me a perfect platform for where my life was headed, only now it wasn't bloody adventures. After a couple years after Vietnam, I ended up at the United Nations, and by then my life had really turned around. I had a lot of spiritualist experiences, meditation and stuff like that, and I really come to realize of who I really was, that I really wanted to make the world a better place, to use that phrase. I wanted to use my skills and my resources, which were plentiful, to undo what I had done and to start doing things that made the world a better place. And then the American State Department sent me to the United Nations, which was absolutely perfect because the United Nations under Jimmy Carter was trying to do a better job with the world, and they put me in charge of American policies toward all of Africa, and eventually toward all of the so-called Third World.
So I had this whole panoply of a couple billion people suffering in wars and revolutions, and I was in a position to do something about it. So I began working for peace and justice issues at the United Nations with the same vigor and the same smarts and the same courage that I'd used to survive physical adventures. I started finding adventures at the UN, and they were adventures because I was then so much imbued, so much enthused by wanting to do good in the world, I went way past where Jimmy Carter wanted to go, where the American government wanted to go. So I got into all kinds of trouble by pushing policies at the United Nations. And because of a curious relationship, I had a lot of autonomy at the UN, and I pushed for things on my own and, in a sense, almost creating my own little state department up there.
I suppose the biggest thing that happened, and there were a number of incidents, was my work with South Africa when it was still an apartheid state. Apartheid, of course, being a system of brutal racism then in South Africa. And the first thing I did when I got the job at the UN was travel to South Africa and see for myself, and it was just awful. The oppression of Blacks by the white racist regime in South Africa was just awful. And it was sustained by military equipment, guns, and police equipment, and communications gear all supplied by Europe and the United States because there was huge amounts of money to be made in shipping guns and military equipment to the South African whites, which they then used to kill Blacks, keep them in line.
So I came back from South Africa looking for a touch point, something I could do, and I realized that if I could get the UN to shut off the supplies of guns and military equipment to the South African military and police, that would cripple their efforts to enforce apartheid. And that's what I set out to do. And the first thing I had to do was to earn the trust of the African delegates because America's relationships then, and probably still, were terrible. We didn't give a damn about our Black and brown brothers. We only cared then about the Cold War, whether they'd vote on our side or that of the Soviet Union. And so we didn't care much for them, and they didn't care much for us, or it took me a while.
But I approached the African delegates on the Security Council quietly and basically said, "Hey, I'm on your side. You probably don't believe me, but I'm really on your side. I will help you develop a plan to put pressure on my own government to institute an arms embargo on South Africa to cut off the supplies of military equipment. And if the US cuts it off, the Europeans are going to have to follow suit. So, what do you say?" And they said, "Oh, we don't trust you." But then gradually, after lunches and walks, they began to trust me. And I even gave them documents for which I could have been fired or even jailed, which showed who in America was responsible for the guns trade, and who in Congress, and there were plenty of racist senators at that time, who in Congress were turning a blind eye to what America was doing to prop up the Afrikaner regime, the apartheid regime in South Africa. I did all of that.
It all came to a head once and I'll never forget this. I got notice of an angry telegram sent to my boss, the Secretary of State, just vilifying American hypocrisy for saying all the right things in speeches, but then doing nothing to institute an arms embargo to keep guns away from the South African military, and this foreign minister from Africa was furious. But the thing was in the middle of his message, I recognized a couple of sentences that I myself had drafted three weeks before, given to my level contact in New York, he had sent them back to his boss in Africa, and they'd come rocketing back. So I said, "Whoa, that's terrible. Oh my goodness, what are we going to do?"
And at that point, I finally let loose and went to my own government and says, "Look, we have to do something. We look like utter hypocrites on this issue." And I convinced my own government finally to face down the racists in Congress and in the administration and to agree to institute a really tough arms embargo on South Africa that really did cut off the supply of arms, and the Europeans weren't happy, but they had no choice but to follow suit.
And so on April, April, April 19... Where was it? April 1980, I guess it was, '81. No, '79, '80, '80, 1980, the UN adopts this arms embargo in South Africa. And in time, that arms embargo was, as I knew it would be, decisive in ending apartheid.
Gary Schneeberger :
I'd love to jump in here because we've heard two sides of your story up to this point, right? You talked a lot about the adrenaline rush of climbing Denali and being in war and covering wars and doing all those things. And you've just described very passionately your work for the government. And I'm wondering if there wasn't, I don't know if it was an adrenaline rush in that, but doing good, did being involved in those situations looking for a good outcome, rather than being involved in situations that gave you adrenaline rush just for your own thrills, was there some of that in what you were doing? Did you get an adrenaline rush of a different sort maybe from that?
John Graham:
Oh, Gary, perfect question. Yes, of course. Yeah, these were incredible adventures, but they were adventures not so much of testing my body, but testing my spirit, testing my resolve, testing my emotions, but they were a lot more adventurous than hanging by a rope over a cliff or dodging a bullet. I had found the adventures of my life and the fact that they were saving lives instead of costing them, the fact that I was doing good was perfect.
It was so perfect, for example, that now, I guess I'm an extremist, but I was as hooked on doing good as I had been hooked on daredevil pursuits, and I realized that I couldn't stay in the Foreign Service because it was too slow. I wanted to change the whole frigging world, and the Foreign Service was too slow. And not only that, but I was now a pretty senior guy, and I made a lot of enemies from people that didn't want to make these changes, so I was going to get fired anyway. So, I quit. I quit the Foreign Service at really the top of my game because I could see the handwriting on the wall.
So there I was in New York City in 1980, '81 without a job, but I was looking for new ways to change the world. And because I'd always had a good gift of gab, I thought I could do it by giving speeches. And boy, was I wrong about that. I thought I was changing the world, but I couldn't figure out how to do that. And then I ran out of money. A friend comes, says, "Hey, you can make some money lecturing on cruise ships."
So I applied and my very first application was accepted, and so I found myself, and I was able to take my then-13-year-old daughter Mallory, as a guest lecturer on a cruise ship heading from Vancouver to a trip to the Orient. Small by today's standards, 500-and-some passengers or so. And Mallory and I board the ship and head out to sea, and it goes up through Alaskan waters and it heads across North Pacific.
Well, anyway, even before I gave my first lecture, the ship catches fire, and Mallory and I are awoken in the middle of the night 140 miles off the coast of Alaska. And there's a voice that says, "I'm very sorry, but there's been a small fire in the engine room and we're putting it out, but the ship has got some smoke in it so we ask you all to come up to the ship's lounge. We'll be serving free liquor and we'll put the fire out and it'll all be fine by morning."
So Mallory and I are disarmed by this, and we open the door, and sure enough, the ship is full of smoke, so we go up to the lounge with the lounge in the dining room. They're also full of smoke. And not only that, but any fool can see that the smoke coming up the stairwells that we've just come up is getting blacker and thicker. Whatever is going on, the fire's getting worse, so people are getting worried. All these passengers are out there on the deck because there was too much smoke inside, and it was October in the Gulf of Alaska, and it was cold. So people were tearing down curtains and using tablecloths to stay warm because we hadn't been warned to take warm clothes or even life vests. We had been lied to over the intercom.
So we're sitting out there, people are beginning to mumble, then they yell that we're told to go into the fantail, the rear of the ship, the stern, and everybody collects there. And they bring out the ship's orchestra. Would you believe that? They do. It's true. It's true. That is a true story.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's like they must have read about that.
John Graham:
The ship orchestra. Yeah, yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
They must have read about the Titanic, right?
John Graham:
Well, of course, of course, of course. And not only that, but when the movie-
Warwick Fairfax:
You know, like in the '50s movie or whenever it was, playing. You remember that scene?
John Graham:
Yeah, of course, of course. Only they weren't playing Nearer, My God, to Thee. They were playing show tunes from Oklahoma. I remember going... Many years later, I went with Mallory to see the movie Titanic, and we just held each other's hands because of the parallels were so exact.
Anyway, the fire gets worse and worse, and we're all told to go to the lifeboat stations finally. And Mallory and I go up to lifeboat number two off the port bow, and it says that it's made for 48. Well, there's like 60 people there, but it's okay because it's so cold. We're crammed together in that little lifeboat. And by some miracle, the lifeboats, six of them, eight of them, whatever, are lowered from the burning ship and they began to drift away. And it's still about three, four o'clock in the morning. It's still dark.
The thing is though, is that a typhoon is bearing down on us, and we knew that because they had distributed seasick pills the night before, a warning that the next day would be choppy because of the typhoon. So where we land in the seas are relatively calm, and at dawn, a huge tanker answering the SOS arrives. That's good. But the tanker is way too big to maneuver to the tiny lifeboats, and the lifeboats are too small to grab the swaying rope ladders off the... So we're still stuck.
And then helicopters start arriving from shore bases 140 miles away, Canadian and American helicopters, and they start lifting people out of the lifeboats one at a time on a little metal chair at the end of a chain, and so it's slow work. 500 people have to be pulled one by one from the lifeboats. And as long as the seas are calm, the helicopters can fly. They get maybe seven or eight people in the helicopter. They fly to the deck of the tanker, drop the seven or eight people, come back for another load. And there's three or four helicopters going as fast as they can.
The trouble is is that the typhoon is coming on, and by about noon, the typhoon is so fierce that the helicopters can't fly anymore. It's just too damn dangerous. Our only hope then is that a Coast Guard cutter, which had been rushing out there to the scene from Sitka, a Coast Guard cutter would find us. But now we're in a typhoon, and the visibility is getting less by the minute. And not only that, but the seas are rising and it's getting worse and worse. At a certain point, we're in seas that are 25, 30 feet high in a little lifeboat. That's like watching the water go up and down like a five-story building. And the winds are 60 knots or so. And I've been in mountain climbing situations enough to know that we're all dying of hypothermia.
Now, who's left? Almost everyone's been rescued by the helicopter. There's only eight of us left in lifeboat number two, and we're all dying of hypothermia. And I recognize that we're going to be dead in seven or eight hours. I could see that. And so if we're still in the lifeboat and not thrown out from the typhoon and the high waves, we'd be dead anyway. They'd just find our bodies in the lifeboat.
And then so there we are. And up until this point, as you know from my stories, I've always walked away from anything that was dangerous, and I thought in the beginning, "Oh, wow, another adventure. Cool. Okay." So I'm in a lifeboat with eight guys in the middle of a typhoon, 140 miles off the coast. Our only hope is for a Coast Guard cutter trying to find us with visibility down to 100 meters. The chances of that happening are really slim. The key thing though was it was going to be dark in half an hour, and if they couldn't find us in the daytime, they would never find us at night because we had no lights, no flares, no reflectors, no radio, nothing. So once it was dark, we for sure we were dead. And it was, at that point, maybe a half an hour until dark.
So here comes the crucible. I realized that finally this may be my last adventure and that I may not get out of this one. But on the other hand, damn it, I've turned my life around. I'm not the self-centered bastard I was in Vietnam. In fact, I helped end apartheid for God's sake. And I didn't understand. And I'm not a religious man, but I remember turning to the allness or whatever you might call it, call it God, call it whatever, and saying, "I don't get it. I thought the world was a useful, I mean, an orderly place." I went to a Jesuit with high school. Order in the universe, crystals, salt crystals, all that, order in the universe. "There's no order here. Here I am. I got 40 years, 50 years left to do your work, God, to do good in the world, and you're wiping me out. It makes no sense whatsoever. It's just plain stupid."
So my prayer becomes this angry bleed, I'm screaming at God, and I get this answer. The other seven guys didn't hear a thing, but for me, it was real clear. And this voice comes booming out of the storm, and it says basically, "Here you are. You're lecturing on a cruise ship. You get out of this one, you lecture on another cruise ship. It's a pretty copacetic way to earn a living, right? And yeah, yeah, yeah, you helped end apartheid. That's good. But you seem to have left those ideals behind, John. And so you have to make a decision here. This is the crunch point. You have to make a decision. Either you keep on with what you started at the UN and devote your life to peace and justice issues, making the world a better place, and we'll see what will happen out here. On the other hand, if you don't do that, you might as well die out here because the rest of your life won't be worth living. It's a choice. Make a choice. Shit or get off the pot." God didn't say that, but that was the message.
So I look up, and my famous ego is just depleted, and I just look out of the teeth of this storm, and I just say, "Okay, it's a deal." And in that instant, and here's another example that most people just don't believe it, in that instant, and I swear it was almost to the second, the Coast Guard cutter Boutwell comes crashing through this storm out of nowhere and aiming right at us. It would have cut us in two had the lookout not seen us. And so we get, I get rescued. I go back to New York. I keep my promise. I never look back.
Warwick Fairfax:
So talk about the next part with your wife, Ann Medlock, and the whole concept of the Giraffe Project because that's really been, I mean, as amazing as the work you did with the State Department, this is really your life's work.
John Graham:
It has been, yeah. What is it now? 42 years. I came back, I'd known Ann. I'd known Ann a little bit because we were both members of a writer's group, but I was still married to my first wife at that point, so we were just friends. And then I came back from Prinsendam and started doing these lectures that were going nowhere, but Ann had started the Giraffe Heroes Project. And the concept was very simple, but very ancient. She was looking for heroes, looking for people sticking their necks out, hence the metaphor. And she would tell their stories any way she could because she was convinced that the world needed to hear the stories of heroes because there was too much gloom and doom. And if people were going to be hopeful, they had to have the stories of heroes.
Well, people have felt that way for, I don't know, since neanderthals. Cultures have tried to create more heroes in their culture by telling the stories of other heroes. I mean, the troubadours in the Middle Ages, same thing. And Ann became the troubadour of our ages when she started the Giraffe Project. And while my lectures were failing, what she was doing became an instant success. I mean, there was an essay on her in the New York Times a year or two after she started, and it was growing fast. And I thought at first it was lightweight. I mean, telling stories, come on. You had to be serious. If you're going to save the world, you had to be like me. You had to be giving these great weighty speeches and write letters or write articles in Foreign Policy magazine and stuff. Now, storytelling captured people and I began to see that.
And so two things happened. I began to realize the power of what Ann was doing, and I also fell madly in love with her, my first marriage then being over. And it was a crazy time. It was just absolutely wonderful. After one of our sessions in this writer's group, Ann asked if anyone wanted to go see the new movie, Superman. And I answered, "Yes," in a voice so loud and aggressive no one else would dare say "yes" as well.
She and I go off to see the movie. We questioned whether her hand moved over mine or mine over hers, whatever. Went to an Irish bar. That was a Tuesday night. On Friday, I moved in for good. So our courtship lasted three days, and we were crazy in love, still are. And I became also a big fan of the Giraffe Project, and the two of us began operating it together. Then now we're talking 1982, '83, '84. And now we're talking about 2025, so it's been a lot of years, but we're doing the same thing that Ann started doing. We're finding heroes and telling their stories, only now it's like 1,500 stories that we've told. They're all cataloged on our website, giraffe.org, and we have written a whole school's curriculum. That took a decade and a million dollars to do it. A whole school's curriculum, helping kids build lives as courageous and compassionate citizens.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's so well said, John. I feel like where you are now and maybe the last 40 years is the adventure of a lifetime, the ultimate adrenaline rush in that sense because when you do good for others, and maybe somebody says, "Hey, John, thanks. That really made a difference," or, "thank you for sharing my story. I felt seen and heard," and again, you're not doing it for the adrenaline rush. You're not doing it for the attaboys or "thanks, John," but it can help you make you think, "well, you know what? Today was a good day. I may have done some dumb stuff in my life, but today, I did something good. I helped somebody." And again, you don't do it for the reason, that reason, but there's a side benefit that it's like, "Maybe I'm not such a messed-up person after all, or maybe I am, but I still can do some good for people." We all can feel that way.
And does that make sense? I feel like you've lived the adventure of a lifetime that's at a different level, and it's sustainable because when you do good for others, that sense of feeling inside, "Boy, this is a legacy that my kids, grandkids, my friends, this is something they can respect. This is something I can leave behind. This is a kind of adventure." That's the ultimate adventure, in a sense. Does that make sense?
John Graham:
Oh, it does. I put it also in this way, in that I am more, in all my endeavors now, more than a little bit selfish because there's so much pleasure, so much meaning in my life, so much satisfaction out of doing this. And of course, I feel good that I've helped this person, but I also feel really good that I've helped myself because yet another example of being able to use my skills and experience to do good.
And a curious sort of thing too, I just want to add this, is that I don't regret, if you will, that first half of my life, despite, as you put it, all the backsliding and stuff, because it makes me credible with tough audiences, not this audience. I mean, you guys aren't a tough audience. You're pushovers. You're good guys. But I talk to maybe a C-suite audience in a boardroom or maybe 2,000 people at a corporate gathering, and they're all skeptical. And the only way to get past their skepticism, if they give me 45 minutes to talk, I'll spend 35 minutes telling these horrendous stories until everyone's on the edge of their seat, "What the... How can that guy, how could he possibly have..."
And then when they're at the edge of their seats and they realize that I've done more tough stuff, more dangerous stuff than the whole room full of them put together, they'll listen, and I'll make the pivot to, "You know, I learned something more about adventuring. I learned something more about meaning. Here's what I've learned." They listen to me. And so in the last two minutes, I can say, "You'll find the same thing. I'm not saying you're going to die on a cruise ship or from a mountain climbing fall, but I am saying there will be, there are adventures in your life, there are tests, there are challenges, and you need to look at that in terms of how much meaning they will give or subtract from your life. You need to look at that and be serious about it because that's what saved my life and that's what made me who I am, and I suspect that's true for you too."
And at that point, these tough-minded, cynical business people are listening. And I reach audiences like that because of my backstory. I often say that if you're going to hire me as a lecturer, what you're really hiring is my biography because my biography is my way in to a lot of audiences who wouldn't listen to me otherwise.
Gary Schneeberger :
We, folks, have reached the point of the show where I normally say something and I'm going to check before I say it because our guest, John Graham, has been through a whole bunch of crucibles that you've heard about, and I want to make sure none of them have to do with planes. And so far, I'm not seeing it. So I'm going to say that sound you heard, folks, is the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign, indicating that it's time to begin our descent to close this conversation. We're not there yet, though. I'm going to turn it over to Warwick in a minute to ask some more questions.
I have a thought, John, that when I ask you this question, you're going to set a record for number of websites you list because I would be remiss if I didn't give you the chance to let listeners and viewers know how to learn more about all the incredible things they've heard about. So what are some good online places they can go to learn more about you and about the Giraffe Heroes Project?
John Graham:
Okay. Well, the first URL is real simple, giraffe.org. That's the Giraffe Project, 42 years. And you get through there, there's an easily searchable database of 1,500 inspiring stories of Giraffe Heroes, notices of our books, et cetera, et cetera. So, giraffe.org.
And then my personal website is my name, johngraham.org. It's pretty much got the stories that we've talked about so far, plus the other useful stuff that you might find on a personal website.
I'd love to give a note to my new memoir. It's called Quest: Risk, Adventure, and the Search for Meaning. You can get it from Amazon or order it from any bookstore.
Gary Schneeberger :
Warwick, John's life has been interesting. It has been informative. I'll turn it over to you to ask the last question or two.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, John, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and you've had an incredible story from an adventure-seeker, somebody who really lived for the adrenaline rush to somebody that maybe still is an adventure-seeker, but you're doing it in an area that's so much more lasting, really to help people, to just really uplift people have taken risks to do something good for others, and I love just what you do at the Giraffe Heroes Project.
So there may be people here that maybe they're going through the dark night of the soul. Maybe they're just saying, "Look, isn't life about me, about money and power?" And maybe they're saying, "Well, if only I get across the next mountain ridge, then I'll finally be happy." For somebody that's going through that dark night of the soul, what's maybe a different vision for your life, the vision that's a legacy that you want to lead, or a vision that you can be proud of, an adventure that's sustainable? What would your advice be to that person that's going through that dark night of the soul and, "Hey, life's all about me and the next rush"?
John Graham:
Take some time off. Go for a quiet walk in the woods. Look up with a starry sky because you've got to silence the clatter and clamor first before you can begin to seriously think about what makes your life meaningful. And if it's a dark night of the soul, what may seem to make your life meaningful is getting back at the bastards who are making life miserable for you or something like that, I guarantee you it's not that.
Find that meaning. And if you start with the meaning is my kids and grandkids, that's great. That's a great place to start. But then look at your skills. There's a reason why you're smart or not smart. There's a reason why you're good at math or not good at math, a reason why you have artistic talent, there's a reason why you're able to give a good speech, or there's a reason why you're shy. There's reasons for all of this. It's like why does an eagle have claws? I mean, they're there for a reason.
So part of it is just taking stock of who you are, and then from there, looking at things that are meaningful that make use of who you are so you feel comfortable in your own skin. But mostly the key is to look for how you can be of service and how much meaning that can bring to your life. And again, the service can be something absurdly simple, and you start with a service to your own family, your own community. And maybe if you have the proper skills, maybe it is getting involved, running for office or whatever. That's not true for most of us, but it is for some. But look, be an honest searcher. Yeah, okay. Bumper sticker: be an honest searcher.
Gary Schneeberger :
Folks, I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word's been spoken on a subject. And our guest, John Graham, has just spoken.
Well, Warwick, wow. We just got done interviewing John Graham who, I dare say, talked in depth about more and more incredible crucibles than I think any guests we've had before. Not that other guest crucibles, we're not comparing crucibles. We say that all the time. But John had some really, really, really challenging crucibles, big-ticket items, if you will.
Where do we start? What's your big takeaway from John's life and how he's turned it around?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. John has led an amazing life, a life of adventure, a life of adrenaline rush from his perspective. The first part of his life, he just lived for adventure. He seemed to feel like he led this charmed life where he could take these unbelievable risks and nothing would happen. I mean, at age 16, he hitchhikes on a freighter, and from this kind of pretty ordinary life in Washington state and in Tacoma, he's on this freighter with these incredible characters, and learning a lot about life that you don't learn at school.
At 19, he's there during the revolution in Algeria. I mean, he's just leading this incredible life. Later, he ends up in Vietnam when he's with the Foreign Service and incredibly dangerous circumstances in the '70s. All these things that he's done, and despite all his adventures, he's also an incredibly smart guy. I mean, he went to Harvard undergrad. He was magna cum laude. That is the highest honors you can get. We don't use those words in Australia, so I had to learn that when I came to America, but I know that means a lot. So he did a grad degree at Stanford. He even did a stint in Adelaide.
And looking at his resume, this has got to be the funniest, craziest, amazing resume I've ever read. He talks about his time at University of Adelaide in the '60s, and he said, "Yeah, I spent almost all my time in mines and prospecting the Outback, drinking beer and chasing girls. Heck, I was 22. Had a bar fight in the geographic center of Australia." I mean, he's done it all.
And so I think the first half of his life, it was all about the rush, about adventure. And really, he had two crucibles that turned his life around, or at least turned the direction of his life. One was in Vietnam in which he was in a town that was surrounded by the North Vietnamese. He was with the South Vietnamese. And it looked like he wasn't going to get out of there. He had to make some very difficult decisions to stop people deserting, and listen to the whole podcast for more detail, but he had to do things that maybe he wouldn't have done normally in less chaotic situations. And he was thinking, "What am I doing here? Why are we here in general?" Which obviously a lot of people have thought subsequently in Vietnam, but he just felt like there was no purpose, there was no meaning. For him, it was all about adventure, about the rush of adrenaline. And it's like there's got to be more than just a rush, a sense of adventure.
And so that was the beginning of a change of direction. And then he then went on to spend more time in the State Department. One of the high-water marks of his life was when he was in the UN and he was covering Africa and really helped in the Carter administration in the late '70s lobby to stop the US supplying arms to the white apartheid regime in South Africa. Not a popular stance at the time because countries are making a lot of money from arms. But he did some amazing things.
But then he got out of the State Department because he was probably making some enemies with some unpopular, pretty courageous decisions. So then he thought, "Well, I can tell colorful stories, and so I'm going to just do the cruise ship routine and tell stories." And I guess in hindsight, from his perspective, I think he felt like he backslid a little bit. He was doing some good in the State Department, but now I guess he felt like there's more to life and just giving speeches on ships. Nothing against that, but for him, it felt like he was copping out a bit.
So it only happens to somebody like John Graham, there's a fire on a board ship. They have to abandon ship, and of course there's a typhoon bearing down. I say, "Of course" because for John Graham, a fire on board a ship is just not enough. You've got to have more adventure, more challenge. Of course, there's a typhoon and he's on the last boat, and the Coast Guard off of Alaska, they can't get them, excuse me, the helicopters can't get them off in the midst of a typhoon, that kind of storm. And so he reaches this really ultimate crucible moment where he is just sort of yelling at the wind, and he's not religious, but yelling at God, so to speak, saying, "Come on, what's the deal?" And he feels like God's basically saying to him, "You've got to," in colorful language, "stop what you're doing and change direction. You choose. Do you want to just live your life in this sort of ordinary life doing the cruise ship routine?"
He'd done good before, but somehow I guess he felt like he was just going to go on a path that really didn't have the same level of merit perhaps. And as soon as he made that decision, "Okay, God or whoever you are, I'm going to change my life. I'm going to really use who I am and my skills for good," as soon as that happens, the Coast Guard cutter comes, and if it hadn't come then, he would've died. Night would've fallen. He would've died of hypothermia.
So ever since then, he's changed his life. He and his wife, Ann Medlock, together worked on this project called the Giraffe Heroes Project, which seeks to find people who stick their necks out and make a difference in the world. And they've shared, I don't know if it's like thousands, a couple thousand, a lot of stories of ordinary people doing heroic deeds. And so his life is totally different. He's somebody that lives a life of purpose and meaning and encourages other people to live lives of purpose and meaning.
And the ultimate rush, if you will, which may not even be the right word, but is the ultimate sense of joy and fulfillment is when you're helping others. And he helps so many people and tells so many stories. He's now in his early 80s, he has so much fulfillment and satisfaction, he's doing so much good with Giraffe Heroes Project.
Gary Schneeberger :
Yeah. And one of the things that was really interesting to me is after we were done with the recording proper, he said to you that he had to do this show because he saw, as we see after talking to him, that what Beyond the Crucible stands for and what his life now stands for and what the Giraffe Heroes Project stands for are so much the same, as we found on a number of occasions. Lots of overlap, even in language.
So you guys are both in the same business, got there through different crucibles in different ways, for sure, but what we say all the time, "Crucibles can differ in circumstance, but they can be resonant with each other in emotion," and I think we found that in John's story.
Warwick and I have a couple of favors to ask of you. If you've enjoyed this show and if you enjoy the show generally, we ask you on your favorite podcast app, if that's where you're listening, to subscribe to the show, put a comment, rate the show there. That will help more people find us. And if you're watching us on YouTube, we ask you to like our YouTube channel and to leave a comment there so that we know what you think about what we've talked about here today with John Graham.
And what we've talked about here today, folks, is what we know to be true. And John's stories, and I said, "Stories" on purpose, that wasn't a slip, John's stories make crystal clear what we say all the time, that we know your crucibles are difficult. We know that they can knock you for a loop. They can cause some really traumatic things to happen in your life. But we also know this, that your crucible experiences aren't the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons, as John explained how he did, if you learn those lessons and you apply those lessons as you move forward, where those crucibles can lead you, those lessons that you learn from those crucibles can lead you to a new destination that will be the most rewarding destination of your life, and that destination is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and, crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance.
Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
The Valuable Lessons in Others’ Mistakes
How can other people’s mistakes or misfortunes, whether they were their fault or not, benefit you? We may agree we can learn from our own mistakes and misfortunes, but we can also learn from the mistakes other people made and the misfortunes other people have faced.
This week, we discuss Warwick’s latest blog at BeyondTheCrucible.com to discover what we can learn from what others have gone through. Action steps like hit the reset button, understand the why and decide to live differently can help us avoid facing the same situations; and even if we end up facing them, it might give us more insight into how to handle those situations and bounce back faster.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond The Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. To be able to calmly analyze what happened and what are the lessons in other people's misfortunes and mistakes, we've got to be able to forgive. Because very often those mistakes and misfortunes, like in the case of abuse, may have directly affected us, may have caused us immense pain. And so forgiveness doesn't mean condoning, but you've got to find a way to forgive them for what they did.
Gary Schneeberger:
Forgive them for what they did, come to terms with how what happened to them has affected you. That's what we discussed this week as we unpack Warwick's latest blog called How Others' Mistakes Can Teach Us Valuable Lessons. He explains the difference it can make in our lives to hit the reset button, understand the why, and to decide to live differently. Warwick, we are back again this week with the kind of episode that we do about once a month, and that is, it's based on a blog that you've written.
It's available right now at beyondthecrucible.com, and it's called How Others' Mistakes Can Teach Us Valuable Lessons. Very, very intriguing subject for us here at Beyond The Crucible, and I really wanted to start with asking you, what was it? Because this one isn't a typical one that you've written before. What was it that prompted you to write on this particular subject?
Warwick Fairfax:
That is a really good question, Gary. What did prompt me to write this blog and want to discuss the subject? I find I often write blogs, think of things to discuss based on things I'm struggling with, things I'm pondering. And we often talk about how do we bounce back from our own crucibles? How do we get beyond them? How do we learn from our own mistakes or from maybe bad things that happened to us? Some of which may not be our fault. And that's very valuable. You have to learn the lessons from your crucible to be able to bounce back and find a vision that leads to a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So that's very helpful.
But I was thinking to myself, "Well, what about learning the lessons from mistakes and misfortunes that others have gone through, maybe even their own crucibles?" And it's complicated because sometimes other people's mistakes and misfortunes can actually become our crucibles. We've had people that have grown up in abusive backgrounds, and those mistakes in this case of others have led directly to their own crucibles and sometimes other people's mistakes and misfortunes can lead to our own mistakes and misfortunes and even crucibles.
Gary Schneeberger:
And to make it even more complex, is that those mistakes and misfortunes many times don't manifest themselves to the people to whom they happen as crucibles. So there are situations that maybe others don't see as crucibles that affect us as crucibles. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. So there's a lot of uneasiness around this subject, I think, in some ways.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And sometimes it could be a friend who suffered a physical misfortune or maybe abuse or what have you. It doesn't affect you directly, but you are their best friend and you grieve for them. And it's something that's just present. And whether it's something you've experienced directly because of somebody else's mistakes and misfortunes, whether it's mistakes and misfortunes of others that have not really affected you directly, that have not led to a personal crucible for you. Maybe you've just read about somebody, watched a documentary, learned from history. There are many tragic circumstances that we can learn from. And so either way, we talk a lot about learning valuable lessons from our own crucibles.
Well, I think we can't ignore the opportunity to learn valuable lessons from other people's mistakes and misfortunes, whether they affected us directly or not, they're extremely valuable. And when I think of my own life, there were mistakes and misfortunes in my own family that affected me in some sense, but certainly they were things that I could learn from. So just to give some examples, I think of my parents. My father was married three times, my mother was married twice, and I saw the consequences of growing up with divorced parents. So I was fortunate in that I was from the last marriage of each. So I wasn't shuttling from one parent to another parent, and that's normal for many.
So in that sense, I was fortunate. But I remember thinking to myself as I was growing up, "I don't want to go through what my parents did. I would like ideally, if I could, marry one time or at least to my level best, to marry the right person and be the right person." You need both, in my opinion, for a happy marriage. And I'm blessed. I've been married to my wife for, gosh, this month it'll be 36 years. So yes, those trials of my parents provided a very valuable lesson for me in that sense. Another lesson I can think of was in my father's younger years, when he was in his thirties, maybe forties, and he was in his first marriage, he grew up in a very wealthy background.
As listeners know, he was head of a very large what became 150 year old family media business in Australia. And he was a lot older when I was born. So when he was younger in the 1930s and early forties, he had nannies to help raise his kids, which was somewhat normal back then. And there was a time in the thirties where he and his first wife went to England for a year without his very young kids. That might seem just unbelievably strange, almost wrong, but that was somewhat normal for wealthy parents back in the day. And so when I was growing up, fortunately my father was a lot more present and we spent a lot of time together. And as listeners probably know, one of the ways we bonded was talking about history.
He loved history. So when I was very small, I'd say, "Daddy, tell me some history." And we'd have these great conversations. So he was present for me. But all that's to say is as we were having young kids in the nineties, I was very focused on, I want to be a present dad. I don't want to take some job as whatever, investment banking, management, consulting, whatever profession that is somewhat common for Harvard Business School graduates, as I then was to do. Nothing wrong with that per se, but I wanted to make sure that I would be present as my kids grew up. And as it happens when we have birthdays, Father's Day, Mother's Day, we give words of affirmation.
And when it's Father's Day or my birthday, my kids will talk about, "Hey dad, you're always there for my sports game or dance recital or choir, what have you." That's like about the first thing they say on the list. You are present, you were there. So clearly it mattered to them. It mattered to me. So I wouldn't have been so focused I don't think on being a present father if not for the lessons from my parents and my father in this particular case. It's not like I suffered the consequences of my father's mistakes. Maybe some of my older siblings did. I did not. So it didn't directly affect me, but I was able to learn from it because I didn't want the path that he led when he was younger.
So all that's to say is well... And I guess some other lessons I've learned quite a few, I guess. I'd like to think. Growing up in a very wealthy family business, you can have your identity wrapped up, in my case, of being a Fairfax, a descendant of the founder, John Fairfax, my great-great-grandfather. And it's like, who am I if I'm not a Fairfax? Being a person of faith, I'd like to think my identity is in Christ and as a child of God, but I didn't want my identity to be wrapped up in that, which maybe it was to a degree and I was in charge of this family business, but sometimes people with wealth can think they're better than other people. Even when I was very, very young, it was like, "That will not be me."
That's the one reason that humility is one of my highest values. I don't want people to think that I think that I'm better than anybody else because I'm not. We're all different. It doesn't make me better. So growing up in a wealthy background made me very focused on the value of humility, not thinking of myself more highly than I should, and not thinking that myself is better than anybody else. I mean, those are just some lessons that I've learned from my background and my parents, in some cases, my parents' mistakes. So I guess all this to say, just to sum up as we sort of start this discussion, there are often valuable lessons we can learn from others.
They may have affected us or not affected us, but either way, I think why wouldn't we want to learn these valuable lessons from other people? Because it's really a rich territory to mine from.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's rich territory to mine from and there's many opportunities to mine it because, let's face it, as we go through life and bump into each other, family, friends, total strangers. We're bumping into each other, we're going to get a little bit of us on other people for good or ill. And when it comes for ill, when it comes for mistakes and how the mistakes of others affect us, you're absolutely right. You've got to be able to, in order to get to your life of significance, to live out your vision, you've got to be able to adapt to learn the lessons of those situations as well, which is why this blog is so valuable, I think.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. Gosh, we've had unfortunately a number of people who've suffered abuse, and we've had people that suffer from alcoholism. I mean a number of things. And it's often the case that those who've been abused will abuse others, maybe even those who have been alcoholics can become alcoholics, I don't know. But certainly in the case of abuse. And so I think we have the opportunity to break that generational cycle so that we're better for our kids, our stepkids, our families. We can break the cycle.
And so that's why this isn't just some academic exercise. This is very, very important to learn these lessons, especially when there's been generational mistakes, generational misfortune. There are some cases where we can chart a different course. So learning these lessons can be not just valuable to us. They can be valuable to all those we love and care about.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, let's dive in then to how we learn those lessons, the lessons we can learn and how we can apply them. Again, the blog is called How Others Mistakes Can Teach Us Valuable Lessons. Warwick's been talking about kind of the on-ramp to the discussion. Now here's the meat and potatoes of the discussion, the points from the blog. And the first point there, Warwick, is hit the reset button. So why is that both important and a good place to start?
Warwick Fairfax:
So often with mistakes and misfortunes, there can be a sea of emotions. We've used some examples. Let's say you've been abused. You might have this incredible sense of anger, of feeling like a victim. This is so unfair. But before you can start thinking about, well, how do I learn from this? You have to find a way to kind of hit the reset button and understand what happened, understand the pain that you've suffered, but try to look at it in an objective manner because when you're full of a sea of emotions and anger, it's very difficult to almost clinically analyze it. Again, that doesn't mean that we condone what happened.
It could be family members who've lived lives in a way that hurt themselves or hurt you, so you can feel sorrow for what they went through anger for what they did to you. It might include family members or those you care about who've suffered a life-altering injury or illness. You might feel angry at what happened, angry at God, or the universe, however you sort of frame it. You might feel this incredible sense of injustice. But for us to be able to calmly look at it, you've got to hit the reset button and separate the often understandable emotions from what happened.
Gary Schneeberger:
And then point two logically follows... I love this when you do a blog, everything is a step. Everything is a stepping stone to get where we're going. And the second point that you have is a critical one that we talk about quite a bit at Beyond The Crucible, and that is to forgive.
Warwick Fairfax:
So it really is a point that follows on from hit the reset button, to be able to calmly analyze what happened and what are the lessons in other people's misfortunes and mistakes. We've got to be able to forgive because very often those mistakes and misfortunes, like in the case of abuse, may have directly affected us, may have caused us immense pain. And so as I mentioned a minute ago, forgiveness doesn't mean condoning, but you've got to find a way to forgive them for what they did. If it's, let's say, some tragedy that somebody you love went through such as an illness or life-altering physical challenge, maybe that forgiveness might be to try and forgive God or some higher power.
And from my perspective, from a Christian perspective, it's not that God causes things. He might allow things for reasons that we can't often possibly understand or fathom. But however you look at it, you've got to find a way to not be consumed by anger and find a way to forgive. You can't learn and understand the lessons of what happened to others or as to what others did that affected you. Unless you can calmly look at the situation and say, "Yes, I have to hit the reset button." You've got to find a way to forgive. If you can't forgive, I think it's almost impossible to learn any lessons from situations that might be rich territory you learn from.
Gary Schneeberger:
And you've talked often about forgiveness really is for yourself. Forgiving other people is really for yourself in the sense of you release the hold that whatever occurred because of the other person is having on you. So talk about that a little bit, that forgiveness, yes, you forgive another person, but the chief beneficiary is yourself, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. When we talk about even people who've been victims of abuse, the reason you forgive certainly one reason is because if you don't forgive, we often say it's like drinking poison or being in a prison. You're consumed with anger and angry people sadly often take out their anger on other people. Anger leaks and you cannot control typically where that anger will manifest itself. You might end up being angry with people who you love dearly who had no part in the abuse that you went through.
It's not their fault. They may be wonderful people, but you take it out on them. That's not right, and then it will cause you more anguish and angst. "How could I have done that? It wasn't their fault." So anger tends to leak. It's really important to forgive. You don't want to be that person, and you don't want to be consumed by anger. It's just anger can just destroy your life.
Gary Schneeberger:
And your third point kind of is what helps with forgiveness. If it's hard for you to get to the point, folks, where you're able to find forgiveness for the things that we're talking about. Warwick's third point, understand the why can really help you in your walk toward finding forgiveness for those whose misfortunes and mistakes have impacted your life. Explain a little bit how that works, how understanding the why is so critical.
Warwick Fairfax:
I know in my own life with some challenging circumstances that I've faced with my family, understanding why they were the way they were, maybe some of the things that they went through may have been very damaging. In some ways helps me forgive. It doesn't mean condoning, but it's like I can see or suspect some of the reasons that they behaved the way they did. Again, doesn't mean it was acceptable, it doesn't mean I condone it, but it does help to forgive if you understand the why. So in the case of some of the guests we've had on the podcast, very often people that abuse have been abused themselves. It's sadly statistically very common. That does not at all make it right.
It does not at all mean that you should condone it, but if you imagine, "Gosh, my father and mother were the way they were..." And again, just looking at some of the guests we've had, you can say, "Well, that wasn't right, but I understand it." Those two statements are really important. It was not right. But I understand some of what may have led them to behave that way. I will choose a different course. I will choose not to behave the way they did because life's about choices. I understand the why and I'm not going to make the same mistake.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good. Fourth point, again tied to that, and that's understanding something else that's very critical and that's understand what they might've done differently. So once you grasp the why, you sort of have an idea of why they turned out the way they did, they acted the way they did, then you can understand what they might've done differently. And it's important to really reach around in there because you can't get to the next point without going through this point like many of these points. So talk a little bit, Warwick, about why understanding what they might've done differently is a key piece to what you're talking about.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's very true. I think really the example of my father that I mentioned, being married three times and with his younger kids, especially from his first marriage not being as present, he was working very hard in the newspapers those days. And then as I mentioned, he was away for a year with his first wife when his two kids, a son and a daughter, were very young. So I think there are lessons to be learned. And what's interesting is my father did learn those lessons and I was the beneficiary of the lessons that he learned. Because when I was growing up and he was in his sixties and early seventies through the time that I was younger, he was a very present father.
I mean, it was clear to me... And yes, you could say he was more like grandfather age, but he was still through a lot of that time, chairman of John Fairfax Limited, the family media company, a lot going on at the time. We had newspapers, TV stations, radio stations, magazines, newsprint mills, and it was a very large company. So if he wanted to, he wouldn't have to be present. He could have worked all kinds of hours, but he didn't. We would go on different holidays, vacations, we would go on camping trips to the Outback and the May holidays in Australia at the time, and then we'd go up to far northern Queensland in the August holidays, which is sort of a tropical.
He was a present dad. And so the fact that he learned those lessons meant that I had a different upbringing than my older brother and sister from my father's first marriage. So he understood what he might've done differently by definition, and that led me to have a very different upbringing and a very close relationship with my father. I mean, it was hugely helpful. So obviously I realize that my father, my mother, it's complex, but I think ideally both of them would have married once, would have made sure they married the right person and being the right person. And certainly there are lessons.
I think just more generally when you look at your own circumstance with your parents, or maybe you have friends from high school, maybe they kind of experimented with drugs, marijuana or what have you, and that led to cocaine or various other things. You might think, "Gosh, we were such close friends when we were in elementary and middle school and we just went in different directions and maybe we still would have been close friends if they'd made different choices. But their lifestyle made it almost incompatible to be friends because we just had different values and my life and their life have gone very different directions."
So you can look back and say, "Gosh, I wish they'd made different decisions because it's ruined their lives." So I think understanding whether it's our parent's close friends, or just maybe those we know and think to ourselves life is about choices, but what choices might they have made that have their life so different?
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's a great place to pause for a second because it occurred to me as I was looking through these points, and we've gone through four of them so far, folks. Hit the reset button, forgive, understand the why, and understand what they might have done differently. And what's interesting to me about that work, we haven't talked about this beforehand, but those four points are all about being others focused to help yourself. Focusing on the experiences and the behavior of others as a way to help yourself.
And now we're going to pivot into ways that you can focus on yourself to help yourself. And the fifth point is break the cycle. So talk about why breaking the cycle is important, but also talk about this idea of looking, examining others to help ourselves, but then also pivoting and helping ourselves.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's a really interesting perspective, Gary. I hadn't really thought about that until you mentioned it. I guess you're right. The first four points are focused on learning from others, understanding the why, forgiving, understand what they might have done differently, and now we're going to be pivoting to how those lessons and others can help you. We talk sometimes about the inner journey precedes the outer journey. Well, in this case, the reflection on others and what you can learn from them proceeds how you move forward and the lessons you take from them. So I guess this particular one, breaks the cycle.
As we said, it is often the case that we don't learn from history. Sadly, there's a reason we study history because there have been mistakes that countries and leaders of countries have made, and history does tend to repeat itself because we tend not to learn the lessons. How could it be possible? I guess it's just human nature, maybe a lack of curiosity, a lack of desire to learn. I'm not sure. But with break the cycle, it's an opportunity to learn from others' mistakes and just chart a different course. We said before that it's all too common for people who've been abused to abuse their own children.
We need to say, "What was done to me was wrong. I cannot, I will. I refuse to do it to my loved ones, kids, spouse. I'm going to chart a different course. I'm going to understand why they acted the way they did to the best of my ability. I'm going to forgive, not condone. I'm going to hit the reset button and I'm going to make a decision that I will not live the way that maybe my parents did or others that I loved did." Maybe back to the example of friends in high school, maybe they did drugs, and some people may have more of a tendency than others. Maybe you're under stress and just, "Gosh, I'd love something to ease the pain and just numb what I'm going through."
And it's like, "But I remember Billy growing up and nah, I will not succumb to that temptation. I will not do what he did, even though I may be tempted, but no, I'm not doing that." So making a decision to break the cycle can be so helpful. In my case, my parents had this spoken and unspoken expectation that I would go into the family media business. They never said, "Hey, Warwick, look, this is what I did," in the case of my father. "But you don't have to go into it. It's been here 150 years. Empires fall, empires rise. Nothing goes on forever, at least in this world." But he was not able to do that. That was certainly a lesson that he was not able to learn.
So with my own kids, my oldest son had a birthday yesterday, and we do words of affirmation. And one of the things I said is, "Money and success is really not what I'm focused on. I want you to be happy and I'm grateful for the person that you are. And really faith and character to me is what's important." So I've never said to my kids, "You've got to achieve A or achieve B and be an accountant, a lawyer, or find your own entrepreneurial business." I've never said any of that. So I've really tried to break the cycle of ideally, not obviously always under our control, but to the best ability I could to marry once, not three times in the case of my father.
But I've also tried to break the cycle in terms of not putting expectations on my kids to be in some family business or to achieve some benchmark of success. And so I think there's real opportunities in breaking the cycle for you to have a better life and for your kids and loved ones to have a better life. So breaking the cycle, it's a decision. It's an absolute line in the sand decision is I will break the cycle. I will live differently. I will be different. I'll make my own mistakes. I'm not perfect, but I'll do my level best to break the cycle.
Gary Schneeberger:
I've never thought about it in the terms I'm about to express it. In all the years that we've worked together, all the years that we've hosted the show, I imagine that there are people, whether they speak it to you or not, who think when they think of Warwick Fairfax. They think, "Man, that guy, bad luck, lost the media company and he missed out on some prodigious riches." What you've lived though, what they don't understand though is you have accumulated even more prodigious riches in a different way.
And that's really what you're talking about right there when you're talking about it's not about money and wealth and power and all that stuff. It's about sitting around the table talking to your family about what you appreciate and love about them. That's the rich life, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
That's very well said. Very well said. I mean, I'm fortunate we're still very financially comfortable, but as comfortable when you grow up in a business that's very large, and I made a $2.25 billion takeover, there's a few more zeros. Money and wealth, fame, houses, large companies don't necessarily make you happy. They typically don't because as we often say, you don't want your money and possessions to own you. You want to own them. And typically it's the other way around. They own you. I mean, there may be a few less zeros, but my kids didn't grow up with the expectation of having to go into the family business. They grew up in the US where the name Fairfax doesn't really mean as much.
I mean, they were just able to be normal people with normal friends, and they all work hard, have strong faith and character, and they didn't have to grow up with all of that wealth. So yes, I mean, when I think of my wife and my kids, what do you want to be rich in? To me, you want to be rich in family, in faith, in significance, in the things that really build up your soul. Building up your soul and the souls of others is I think a lot more valuable than really building up your bank account. Where do you want to be rich in? Your soul, your friends or your bank account? I mean, which is going to make you more eternally happy. I think it's pretty clear.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's also pretty clear because what we're talking about folks is Warwick's blog, which is called How Others Mistakes and Misfortunes, he's added, can teach us valuable lessons and what we've been talking about, what that summation was just about Warwick is that you learn valuable lessons about what's really important in life through the way that you were raised and the experiences you had when you were younger. And actually, I didn't even realize this, but 0.6 of the blog is what I just said without saying it, and that is learn the lessons.
You've learned the lessons, right? Talk about that. Why is learning the lessons so important? You've just expressed how you learned them. Why is it so important for everybody to do that?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's kind of funny. I literally just talked about that, didn't I?
Gary Schneeberger:
I know.
Warwick Fairfax:
But so I think gratitude comes, at least in my case, from learning those lessons. So again, back to my situation, I wanted to marry somebody that loved me for who I was not being the heir to some very large family fortune and family business. I was looking for faith and character and common interests and common outlook in life. So there were lessons I learned from the fact of my parents being married multiple times, from my father not being as present a dad with his kids from his first marriage as he was with me, of some of my family having their identity wrapped up in the family media business. I mean, there was really, as I think about it, a treasure trove of lessons for me and my family.
There were many, many lessons. I mean almost a cornucopia of lessons that I could learn, if you will. So I didn't know that I was very grateful for it growing up because I was affected by that in many ways. I mean, what I've been through, and I think I've talked about this quite a bit in my book, Crucible Leadership. In one of the chapters on authenticity, I say I grew up in the world of the inauthentic. And by that I mean the dinner parties and cocktail parties that we had growing up with ambassadors, prime ministers, the odd visiting Hollywood person, the rich and the famous. So many of them were just concerned about their image and bragging about who they'd met and the business deal they'd done.
And it's like I became almost allergic to that. And so one of my passions is being authentic, which I really try to my level best ability to be authentic. Well, why? Because I hated the whole inauthentic putting on the mask. So another lesson that I've learned so many of my values and the way I want to live my life is because of the lessons that I have learned.
Gary Schneeberger:
Very well said, and again, builds right to the next point, point number seven. You mentioned in talking about point number six that some of the lessons that you learned, you didn't really learn them when you were younger because you were kind of in it, but you learned them later. This seventh point is something that you learned later, that you experienced later in your life. And that seventh point is find an anchor for your soul. We talk about that a lot here at Beyond The Crucible. Why is that so important to how others mistakes can teach us valuable lessons?
Warwick Fairfax:
I think as you try to lead a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, it's really important to find an anchor for your soul because I think it's often the case that those who've made mistakes, whether they abuse people or they have their identity wrapped up in their wealth and money, maybe they marry the wrong people. It's often they don't have this anchor for their soul. They don't really have the set of beliefs and values that govern every decision they make. So maybe they're thinking of getting married to the man or woman of their dreams, and are they thinking about, "What's the anchor for my soul? And do my set of beliefs and values correlate with what that other person's beliefs and values are?"
That other person might seem like a wonderful human being that we respect, but if you have fundamentally different beliefs and values, it's not about whether you're right or they're right or you're wrong, they're wrong. That's not so much the point here. It's really important to have a common set of beliefs and values, from my perspective, for marriage, if you're going into business with somebody. Maybe they don't have quite the same belief and values, but some of them better be the same. If your values are humility and integrity and theirs are like arrogance and win at all costs, and let's crush the little guy. That's incompatible.
I don't care how much money they have, how much expertise, maybe they have a patent on some game changing invention. Run, flee, it will not work. So finding an anchor for your soul, it's very practical, whether it's thinking about who you will marry or be in relationship with, who you'll be in business with, it's absolutely critical. As you move forward, you're trying to learn the lessons of other people's mistakes and misfortunes, some of which may have been your crucible. You're trying to learn these lessons and choose a path that's different. Well, in choosing that path, it's my belief that we need help. We need help from other people, but I believe that we need help from a higher power.
In my case, it's my faith in Christ. And as I was trying to bounce back from the adversity, I went through losing a $2.25 billion business, just being incredibly self-critical of the mistakes I made. Having an anchor in my faith and scripture memory like Philippians 3, forgetting what is behind, straining toward what is ahead to win the prize, which God has called me heaven in Christ Jesus. There are a number of scriptures, a number of key biblical thoughts that helped me move forward, and that helped me find that anchor for my soul, which would really govern every decision that I made, whether it was marrying Gail, the person I did.
Whether it was, I guess in about 2003 when I was working for an aviation services business, doing marketing and business analysis. I just felt like God saying, "You're playing small. You're not using all your gifts and abilities for me." It's not so much about the job being above me, beneath me, but that anchor for my soul helped me through some executive coaching, through somebody that did mid-career assessments, said, "Warwick, you have a great profile based on some assessment tests to be an executive coach." And that led me ultimately on the path that I am now with Beyond The Crucible.
I talked about the details of this story elsewhere, but that anchor for my soul has led me to make better decisions than I would have otherwise.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I want you to do something for me at this point, in this episode. I want you to take a look at a calendar, find a calendar in your house or on your phone, just look at a calendar. And I would like you to, if you can, circle the date, don't do it on your phone, but circle the date on your calendar if you can, mark the date on your phone because this is a truly paradigm shifting day in the history of the Beyond The Crucible podcast. And that's this. If you listen to these episodes-
Warwick Fairfax:
Do we need a drum roll?
Gary Schneeberger:
You know what? Yes, please. Scott, drum roll. Very good, Warwick. Because folks, if you've listened to any of these blog episodes in the past or you've read the blogs, you notice that Warwick's blogs, and I've teased him about it on the show several times, always have seven points. Well, guess what? That find an anchor for your Soul was the seventh point, which means this episode, this blog has eight points. It's a first. That's why I wanted you to circle the date on your calendar because on this date, Warwick Fairfax went beyond seven points for his blog and arrived at eight.
And it's a good reason why, because we've been talking about all of this stuff, all this stuff about how others' mistakes can teach us valuable lessons because the lessons that we learn can help us get through crucibles or avoid crucibles. So the first eighth point in the history of Beyond The Crucible blogs is this, decide to live differently. Warwick, why was that the point that you picked and how does it relate to the whole reason for Beyond The Crucible? And that is to get beyond crucibles, to navigate through them, and perhaps when you can, avoid them. How is decide to live differently tied up with overcoming crucibles?
Warwick Fairfax:
So you might've hit the reset button, you might've forgiven, understood the why, understood what they, others, might've done differently, you might've broken the cycle, you've made that desire known, you've learned the lessons from what happened to others, and you found an anchor for your soul that's going to guide every decision moving forward. But ultimately, that decision to change has got to come to fruition. It's good to have a plan, but a plan is not very helpful unless you execute the plan, unless you live the plan. So you've got to make a decision to live differently. You've got to make a decision to proactively and positively decide how you'll make a change moving forward.
In the 1980s, as I was thinking about who I would marry, really what became important to me is to find a woman that had strong faith and character and who I enjoyed being with. And I didn't want to do it three times like my dad. And so I made active decisions in terms of who I chose to go out with, that they would frankly meet that kind of criteria, if you will, that people of faith and character, that we had a common worldview and common interests and how we wanted our lives to look. I decided that I would be a present dad, and as I've mentioned with my own kids, when we do words of affirmation as we did yesterday at my son's birthday. My kids say, "You were present at my dance recitals, sports games," what have you.
So I made a decision to live differently. I made a decision that... And it took a while to make sure... I wanted to make sure my identity wasn't wrapped up in what I did. I had to realize my identity was at one point when I was younger, wrapped up in being a Fairfax, not so much in the money and power, but more in, "Somehow maybe it's God's plan for me to resurrect the company and the image of the founder." So my identity as being a Fairfax had a bit of a different hue, if you will, than money and power. It's more about calling, but still from my perspective in terms of my anchor for my soul, identity should be in God, should be in Christ, at least that's my faith perspective.
Not in the things that we think we can do, even if those are beneficial things. I've really tried to live differently than aspects of how I grew up and some aspects of my family, people that I ran into. I want to live authentically and be a humble person to the best of my ability, which was not always the case with people that I ran into growing up at some of these cocktail parties with my parents. So I think more generally, we might have grown up with all sorts of tragedies, whether it's being victims of abuse, alcoholism, maybe parents who were married multiple times, friends who've made poor lifestyle choices in terms of drugs or what have you.
Or maybe we have friends that we grew up in the neighborhood and we've done okay, but they've done fabulously well and have much more money than we have, but their lives may be miserable. That power and money and multiple houses all over the globe, that's fine, but that may not be where true happiness lies, which I don't think it is. So we need to make a decision not just to learn the lessons of all these crucibles or mistakes and misfortunes that others may have gone through. Some of them may have deeply affected us. We need to make a decision to live differently. And really that's a day by day decision. Yesterday might've been a good day.
You might've made a good decision. You got to make a good decision today too, and tomorrow and the next day and the next day. You got to keep making those good decisions. And how do you do that? It's back to some of the points we discussed earlier. Learn the lessons, understand what others may have done differently, find an anchor for your soul when you're making each of those decisions. Make sure that that's in line with your fundamental beliefs and values.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's really a good resonant way to land the plane on this conversation on a very helpful and serious note. I'm going to then put a pin in that and make a joking note and say, deciding to live differently. You did that with this blog because you have eight points, not seven. So you did indeed decide to live differently in writing this blog. So bravo for you. As I always do, Warwick, I'm going to ask you, there's a lot of stuff that we've covered.
There were eight points, there were myriad kind of sub points and all those points. What's the one takeaway that you hope our listeners and viewers take away from this, I think very helpful and hopeful conversation?
Warwick Fairfax:
We're very focused and rightly so at Beyond The Crucible on learning the lessons of our crucibles, we often say they didn't happen to us. They happened for us. Whether those crucibles were our mistake, whether they were misfortunes that happened to us that were not our mistake at all. It could be physical crucibles, for instance, or an illness. But there are also valuable lessons that we can learn from others' mistakes and misfortunes. Some of those mistakes and misfortunes may have affected us. Their mistakes could be something that really caused a crucible within us. Sometimes maybe you had a mom or dad that was successful and maybe they made mistakes or maybe something happened to them that wasn't their fault at all, and you went from having a large house to a lot smaller one.
But whatever those mistakes and misfortunes are, there are such valuable lessons that we can learn from. I've outlined, gosh, a number of them, quite a lot actually as I think about it. That I have tried to learn from in terms of mistakes and misfortunes that my parents and others that I knew growing up went through like my dad being married three times, my mother twice. The sense of having your identity all wrapped up in being a Fairfax, people at cocktail parties, just with the lack of authenticity, arrogantly talking about their success, many mistakes and misfortunes that I've had the privilege of learning from. And so why not allow yourself to learn from these mistakes and misfortunes that others went through?
Whether they affected you or not, it's a chance to be different, to live different, to love differently, to just be a present father or mother. It can have generational impact. Generational challenges can be broken. That cycle of abuse, it can end. Your kids and family may not have to experience what you experience. So challenges can be life altering. They can be tough to grow up with, but every day we have a choice. Are we going to live differently? Are we going to decide to be a different person to care for those around us? Are we going to decide not to live life all about us, but to live a life of significance, a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others?
We have that choice. So there's such rich territory to learn from in the mistakes and misfortune of others. So just don't allow those mistakes and misfortunes to go past without you learning from them. There are rich territory and they can be so valuable that can lead you to live a life that is really truly in line with your belief and values. It really does make you feel like you can leave a legacy in terms of character and faith and how you treat others that you and others could actually be proud of. So it's very important.
Gary Schneeberger:
And there's also folks rich territory in the points that we've covered from Warwick's blog on this episode. The blog, again, if you want to go read it at beyondthecrucible.com, is called How Others' Mistakes Can Teach Us Valuable Lessons. And as we always do, we're going to leave you with some reflection questions that Warwick has prepared for you to kind of ruminate on what you've heard in this episode. First one is this, what mistakes that others have made and misfortunes that others have faced can you learn most from? That's a good one. Second one, what lessons do those circumstances have for you?
That's where you might want to get out one of these, a pen and write down what some of those lessons that those circumstances have for you, what are they? And you don't have to... Here's the beauty of it. That's why it's called reflection, because it can take time. You don't have to do it in five minutes, and then you're done with it. Keep reflecting on it because you'll find some very, very good answers there. And then the third point is, what specifically will you do in your life so that you will live your life differently? The eighth point, the miraculous eighth point in Warwick's blog was decide to live differently. So all of this wraps up our episode here at Beyond The Crucible.
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