He Gained A Lot After Losing His $300 Million Business: Gregory Vetter
Our guest this week, Gregory Vetter, describes the shock and loss he felt over losing the $300 million dollar salad dressing business he and his brothers built using their mother’s recipe.
They were forced to file for bankruptcy, he says, because of a legal battle with greedy and unscrupulous investors. He may have lost millions of dollars, but not his entrepreneurial spirit — going on to launch new businesses and help other entrepreneurs with a big idea do the same.
You’ll want to pay special attention when he tells us the lesson his crucible taught him about the four things money can’t buy.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Over the 12 weeks, what we found was that initially the cohort had a Beck Depression Inventory score of, I believe it was about 32, which is in the severe range. By the end of the study, the mean Beck Depression score had dropped to 14, which is in the mild region.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Dr. Thomas McCormack, describing his research into how adding a spiritual component to psychiatric care can have a powerful impact the medical discipline he pioneered. Ruachiatry takes a 12-step approach to helping patients find healing, especially in the wake of crucibles, by leaning into such things as finding peace through surrender, embracing reconciliation, and choosing forgiveness.
Warwick Fairfax:
Tom, great to have you here. Tom is Dr. McCormack. He is a psychiatrist educator, thought leader and integrates spirituality and medicine. He graduated with honors from Wake Forest University, got his medical degree from Emory. Fellowships at Duke. He has a thriving multidisciplinary practice in Athens, Georgia, and he specializes in complex and treatment-assistant psychiatric cases. Dr. McCormack, Tom is an expert psychiatrist and has written a book, Hidden Medicine that really talks about the integration of spiritual with the physical and the biological, and talks about the 12 steps of Ruachiatry. Did I get that close to right?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, that's right War.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay. So before we get into that, which I found fascinating because it really offers help to folks spiritually really holistic medicine I guess you could say. So tell us a bit about the backstory of what a young Tom McCormack was like growing up and how you got interested in medicine. Where was that journey because not everybody grows up saying, "I want to be a psychiatrist one day." Probably didn't think that when, I guess you were six or seven, I'm guessing. So what was life like for young Tom and what led you to your life's calling?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. Well first thank you guys for having me, Warwick and Gary. And look forward to talking to you guys today. Yeah. Starting from the start, when I was born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia and growing up from a really young age, I knew I wanted to be a physician. Honestly, it was probably like three or four years old. I remember watching the old 1970s television show called Emergency, and I just really-
Warwick Fairfax:
Yes.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
You remember that? All right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh yeah.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Same generation. Good.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Well anyway, the role of the physician, the doctor really resonated with me. I just thought it was neat. And so I started saying ... My parents tell me now that I wanted to be a doctor from a really, really young age. I went to a great college preparatory school from seventh grade onward and was blessed to have a wonderful education. And the further I got in my education, I began to see science as the way to truth. And as a person of science, I overemphasized that and really abrogated anything spiritual to the backseat. I wasn't sure that existed and science seemed to explain the natural world and what occurred, and so I went with that.
So growing up really wasn't a person of faith to any large degree, and that got worse in college as it often does. I really looking back was very selfish young man and was all about me, myself, and I. I'm embarrassed to say that, but it's the truth. And I studied very hard in medical school initially ... I'm sorry, in undergraduate. My first semester, just a month or so into school, I got a very severe case of mononucleosis. And it was so severe I thought initially it was just pharyngitis strep throat or something like that. And so I really blew it off. I thought, oh, this will get better in a few days and just gargle and that sort of thing. But by the time I actually sought medical help, it was my roommate and my suitemates who said, "You've got to go down to student health." I couldn't move at that point, Warwick. I was so fatigued. My throat hurt so badly I could not swallow. I'd lost a lot of weight in a really short period of time and they knew something was wrong. And so they took me to student health. I had an enlarged liver, enlarged spleen. I just let this go and they diagnosed me with mononucleosis.
I was actually in the hospital just for supportive care for almost two weeks and missed a lot of class. And obviously I was taking a pre-med track, and so I was taking biology and chemistry among other things. And I got way behind and met with my advisor after I was discharged and he said, "Tom, I really think you ought to withdraw from some classes. Probably the harder ones, like the science classes." And where I went to school was at that time pretty small college and they didn't have where you could take chemistry one or biology one second semester, you had to take it first semester. And so if I dropped out, I couldn't take the chemistry two. Anyway, I couldn't take it second semester, so I'd be a year behind on the pre-med track. And I just thought, that's unacceptable. I don't want to waste a year. So I foolishly did not take that advice and kept going forward and ended up getting two Cs and both in biology and chemistry, the rest for A's and Bs.
It was very humbling. I had never gotten a C in my life, let alone in a class, but I think on a paper test, I don't think I'd ever gotten Cs. I've done very well. And I met with my pre-med advisor and he said, "Tom, you're obviously not going to medical school, so you might want to think about another major." And indignant, I said, "No, sir. Well, I am going to medical school." I was respectful, but I said, "Eat my dust and I'm going to get a new advisor, somebody who's more encouraging." Always said respectfully. Anyway, so I did. And the rest of my time at Wake Forest, I studied really hard and almost had a 4.0 the rest of the time. And so it did help bring my grade point average up. So by the time it was time to apply to medical schools, the same advisor I met with, because he was in charge of the pre-med committee, he met with me and said, "Oh, well, we highly recommend you to medical school." I didn't say I told you so. He might not have even remembered what he told me three and a half years earlier. So he said, "Where do you want to go?" And I said, "My state medical school." He said, "You should have no problem getting in there with your grades and your activities and your MCAT scores." And I thought, "Great. That's where I want to go."
After applying, I got a interview very early on, which was a good sign. It's a rolling admission. And the interviews went great at my state medical college and I truly expected to get an acceptance letter any day now. And so every day from October my senior year in college on through my graduation, I checked the mailbox and there was nothing there. It got humbling, but then scary and I was puzzled like, "Why don't they let me know?" And they didn't put me on the wait list, which usually they'll do if they think, "Ah, he's okay, but we're not sure. Maybe something will open up." But they just didn't let me know. And graduation came around and I still hadn't heard. So I went home that summer in late May of '92 and still checked the mailbox every day, really hoping to get a letter, but my confidence was waning.
And then one muggy day in June, I grabbed my trusty dog, Murph, and we went down to the mailbox and I found a very thin letter, which I knew spelled bad news. Opened it on the spot and there was a few line rejection and I was just crestfallen. Everything I'd worked for one, be a physician since a very young age and worked really hard to overcome some early academic setbacks have been taken from me, and I was led to believe I was a really good candidate. And on paper, I was. I was just puzzled. I started tearing and I thought, geez, what do I do? I didn't want to go back to my home. I knew my parents were there and they'd start asking questions and scrambling around, and I just didn't feel like facing that. I felt like I needed to process it. So I had my dog and I thought, well, I'm just going to go for a walk and try to clear my head. But my head was swirling. I was so upset and tearful.
I hadn't made it very far. Made it to the house next door, and I stopped in the middle of the road and I'm embarrassed to say this is how I addressed the almighty. But I stopped and said something along these lines, God, I'm not really even sure you exist and if you do, why in the world would you let this happen to one of your children? This isn't fair. I worked hard for this. And I said, "I'll tell you what, if you exist, you need to show me right now. I'm not asking you to get me into medical school, but I've worked hard for this and I'm lost, and you need to show me what path you want me to take. And if you do that and show your reality, I'll follow you the rest of my life." And not expecting any answer whatsoever, and to my shock, immediately I felt an otherworldly presence. I don't know how else to describe it. Words don't do it justice. It felt as though this piece instantaneously embraced me. I came to realize in retrospect that whoever listened to me ... I prayed a silent prayer. Heard me, and then responded, and I wasn't expecting that, and I felt a duty to figure out who or what that was.
So that started my journey of spiritual exploration. Long story short, I made it back to my house. I went in, my parents were very upset and they started scrambling immediately. Well, let's pull some strings. They knew some people. And I didn't really care. I just thought it's going to be okay. And my dad said I remember, "Why are you so calm?" Because they were not. And I didn't want to explain to them. I thought they might think I was crazy or lost my mind. So I just said, "Yeah, I think it's going to be okay." And they looked at me puzzled. So they got on the horn behind the scenes. Turned out my mom knew the dean from another medical school in Georgia that I hadn't applied to. It was a newer medical school. It was kind of geared to rural medicine, which wasn't really my interest. And she called him and he surprisingly said, "Well, I'd be happy to interview Tom. I can't guarantee he'll get in." But it seemed like there was hope because I would be a very good candidate for their program. And I thought, well, maybe they'll open the spot for me. But still weren't really sure this was the right way. It didn't feel right.
So the next week when I was heading down south for that interview, got dressed up in my Sunday best, and I lingered on the couch and my mom came in and said, "Tommy, you've got to go. You're going to be late. I set all this up." I said, "Yes, ma'am." So I walked to the back door and I kissed my mom and dad.
And y'all remember back in the days when phones were on the wall. Anyways, our laundry room. And the phone on the wall rang literally as I was touching the doorknob to leave. And I remember my mom answered it and said, really puzzled, was like, "Yes, yes." And so I stopped like, "What's going on with her?" And she said, "Yeah, he's right here." And she put her hand over the phone and thrust it in my direction and said, "It's for you." And I was like, "Who is it?" And she goes, "It's for you." And thrust it in my face. And I answered the phone. And on the other end, I had been waitlisted at a private medical school in my state, and it turned out the dean of admissions was calling me and said, "Tom, a spot has opened up. Would you be willing to accept this spot and join our class of 1996? Classes start next week so there's not much time." And I said, "Yes, sir," and I hung up the phone. They're like, "What happened?" I told them and it was just jubilation ensued. And that really started me on this spiritual journey that wow, something cared, listened to me. And even though I was disrespectful and he answered my prayer and gave me the desires of my heart, not because it was my desire, but because looking back it was his will and I finally surrendered and submitted.
Warwick Fairfax:
You're in medical school. So tell me what led you to psychiatry? Because not everybody wants to do that. Some one of these surgeons. There's a lot of different specialties. Neurology. A lot of things you could go into. But why psychiatry?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
So I saw a flyer in my fourth year in our medical school, and it said, "The law school is looking for medical students to be a mock expert witness in a medical malpractice case for our moot court, and we'll pay you, and it's on a Saturday morning." And I was like, "That sounds fun and I could make a little money." So anyway, I signed up for that and I went to court. They were very serious. They acted like it was a real case. And because this was the law students, they got a grade for this. It was important to them. I was just there getting paid. But they gave me a transcript of, okay, your doctor so-and-so and it was a malpractice case that had to do with surgery. I supposedly tied the suture wrong, and then they were also suing the company that made the suture.
Anyway, so I got up there on the stand as the expert witness and really enjoyed it. And I think did a pretty good job because afterwards the judge caught me on the way to the parking lot and said, "Hey, young man." I said, "Yes sir, your honor." And he said, "What's your name?" Introduced ourselves. And he said, "You were really good up there." I said, "Well, thank you, your honor. I appreciate that." He goes, "Have you ever thought about doing that for a career?" And I was like, "Doing what?" He said, "Being an expert witness." I said, "No." And he said, "Well, you might want to consider it." He said, "I think you're really good at it. And that's needed in law for us to have experts to give judges guidance on these things." And I thought, "Oh, okay." And so I went home and I looked it up. I was like, "What is he talking about?" And I found forensic psychiatry. And I was like, "I would love that. That sounds great." So my goal then, I was like, "I think I want to be a forensic psychiatrist."
In order to do that, you have to do at least a four-year residency in psychiatry. And again, I didn't really know what that was. I had a psychiatry rotation, but I thought, "Well, gee, if I'm going to go into this, I better do another rotation." So I did one with a private practice, which was more my speed, and I loved it to my surprise. And that was the goal. I was like, "I'm going to be a forensic psychiatrist." And my wife supported me, and my family was very puzzled. My dad was a dentist, so he was used to doing things and fixing things and then boom, we're done. See you next year. And he just said, "You're doing what?" He goes, "We paid for four years of medical school for you to do that?" He just didn't understand it. He later came to appreciate it. He never did understand it because he doesn't have that bent at all. But at any rate, that's what I chose. And it was the road less traveled and never looked back. I love it. I've been blessed to get a great education and have wonderful people around me, and it's been fantastic. Good fit for me.
Warwick Fairfax:
So before we get into the 12 steps of Ruachiatry, which I found fascinating, talk a bit about the spiritual and the physical, and the biological, because it seems like ... And obviously you talk about this a lot in the book, doctors are trained medically that they focus on that and not always thinking about holistically. It's like, I'm not trying to make fun of doctors, but if your cholesterol is high, you need to take a statin. Okay. That could be helpful in some cases. But what about diet and exercise? Isn't preventative helpful? Again, some might actually say, "Hey, before I give you a statin," but some might not. Depends on the doctor and their background, their training, their medical philosophy. But I think what you're advocating is more for holistic, not just physical. And again, obviously you're a doc, not against medicine. But talk about how holistic is maybe a better approach, including the spiritual. So talk about your philosophy of medicine, which not every doctor may share necessarily. What's your philosophy of, I guess, healing rather than curing or preventative medicine? Just talk philosophically about what your approach is.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. Like I said, early in my training, I had become a spiritual person based on my own experience. And simultaneously as I was going through my own spiritual journey, had the privilege of obviously starting to see patients. And what I've found was that even when they were really sick or in despair, there was an undeniable tendency for those with a religious foundation to have better coping but also better health outcomes in general. And so it puzzled made that, why aren't we talking about spirituality at all in our medical curriculum, both in medical school and then I found later in residency as well. When I was in residency, this puzzled me and I was at Duke and there was attending named Harold Koenig at Duke who is an expert in spirituality and medicine. And I started reading his stuff and found that there are over 3000 studies showing the benefits of having a religious faith background. And again, it just puzzled me.
We are trained in medical school on what's called the biopsychosocial paradigm, and that was introduced by a fellow named George Engel in 1977. And so that is standard in medical curricula in the United States. But even though medicine had a spiritual beginning ... If you look back centuries, even millennia, the people who were doing most of the medical treatments ... Back then, of course they were herbs, not for pharmaceutical company and whatnot. But they were the shaman or the medical man or the priest and that sort of thing. And the fact that that had been totally ignored in modern medicine was puzzling to me. So finding this information that it can be helpful and seeing that in my own practice, I really started to think, well, we need to integrate this into medical care. And something in the '90 when I was training was called the biopsychosocial spiritual approach. So they tried to add the spirituality component to it and it never really caught on to a large degree Warwick. And again, the further I got, I thought this is really helpful. I don't know why that could be.
When I went through my own both physical and spiritual battles as I aged, I felt like there needed to be a more systematized approach to this for patients because somewhat selfishly to some degree, I'd had a lot of problems back in 2019. My dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease and watching the greatest guy become a shell of himself and being robbed of his humanity and watching my poor mom having to take care of him, and then COVID hit and we were trying to keep him out of a nursing facility, but it became increasingly hard to keep him at home. I just thought he'll die if he goes there. He'll never get out with COVID and who knows how long that's going to last.
But also with COVID, there were challenges. I had some physical illnesses turning 50 for the first time in my life that were pretty serious and even had to take some time off of work. In addition to time away from practice from COVID was trying to help mom with dad to some degree. And all this along with just ... I had three teenage kids running a private practice that I owned and trying to be there for my wife as well was overwhelming. And so I decided to try to systematize it honestly initially for my benefit. And I found it to be wildly beneficial and always wanting to help patients. As I went along, I thought maybe this could be turned into some kind of paradigm that we could help patients. In 2022, I also suffered some trauma in my church that I'd attended for over 20 years, and there was really intense spiritual warfare. That led me ... And my father had passed recently. Led me to start writing.
I actually started writing with my pastor. He had a PhD and had written books before and such, and I had written anything since college and I thought, I don't know what I'm doing and I don't know if anybody will read this or publisher probably wouldn't be interested. And he and I started writing together and it was not far into the process where Dr. Mills said to me, he said, "Tom, I think this is your book." And I was scared. I said, "No David, I really need you. I need you to help me with this." And he said, "No." He said, "I think you have a message to say here and I think it's for you." And he said, "Look, I'm in the business and people may not hear it from me that they expect me to say these things, but coming from you, it might be seen differently." And again, I didn't like what he said, but with trepidation, I went out on my own and over the next couple of years wrote the book at night and on weekends and things of that nature.
And finally got it done in 2024 and approached a friend of mine who's a ghostwriter, and he said, "Well, let me look at the manuscript." I said, "Okay." And he looked at it and he said, "Tom, I think you've got something here." He said, "I really think this could be a special book." And I was like, "Really? Wasn't expecting that. I was expecting to self-publish it and just be Vanity Press or something." And he said, "Let me edit it and put some polish on it and then I'm going to introduce you to my publisher." And I said, "Wow. Okay." And so he did that, and this was late 2024 and Greenleaf Publishing accepted later in the year and early 2025, we started the process of having them help me edit it a lot on coming up with cover and all the things that I'm sure you're aware of having written a book go into. And it's due October 28th and really excited about it. I hope it helps a lot of people.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, I want to jump in here just for a second because I think we're at a pivot point in the conversation, and I want to make this point because you've described Tom as we've been going through your story, your first crucible situation. You didn't get into law school and you used this phrase when you were talking about who you were at that time. You said that you were all about me, myself, and I. That was your words about where you were at then. You've then just described another round of crucibles with some health challenges for you, your father passing away, some problems in your church. And it seems like in those situations your focus was not totally on yourself. For people who are listening to this and their crucibles are going to be different in detail, but the emotions will be the same, what's the difference? Why did the second way that you dealt with it not being me, myself and I, how did that help you get through those crucibles that you faced?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. That's a great question. Well, as a person of faith, I came to believe the word of God that says that the highest two commandments are love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength, mind and also love your neighbor as yourself. And going into medicine being really clearly in retrospect, a calling from a young age, I just grew to love people and started seeing myself as less important. That I was a vessel for God to use to help people. And that was my mission in life. I came to see that very differently. And because of that deep desire to help people and show them the way I also became convicted that I can't show people the way if I don't have it myself. It's the same with physical health.
And what I mean by that is in medical school, there's a very famous cardiologist who literally wrote the book Cardiology, and he would lecture to us and then I would see him between lectures go outside and chain-smoke. And I just thought, wow, this is like a world-famous cardiologist who would tell everybody not to smoke and he's not doing it. I wasn't being judgment. I just thought that's a little hypocritical. As I practice medicine, I don't want to do that. I don't want to tell people. Or you said, "Hey, diet, exercise," and then have me be out of shape and that sort of thing. So same thing happened here. It had been helpful for me and I wanted to get the message out and see if I could help other people.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about Ruachiatry. Before we get into the 12 steps. At a high level Ruachiatry what's the philosophical underpinnings? What does it mean?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, ruach in Hebrew means spirit, and iatry obviously comes from a Greek word iatrea which means treatment of. And so this is a spiritual treatment that I came up with. I coined that term for better or worse, but I think I wanted to give it one term that maybe would be memorable to incorporate the spiritual component that's been neglected in medicine. So yeah, that's it in a nutshell.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it's interesting. You did a study with Ruachiatry, with people I think that had depression, and you have a bunch of things like the Beck Depression inventory that I guess I'm sure psychiatrists, but all know what that means. The rest of us probably don't. Talk about how in that study using these principles actually had very significant health benefits. Talk about that because must've been affirming to you.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
So in seeing it being helpful in my own life, I thought, well, if I'm going to have a systematic approach to help patients, I want some empirical evidence that it is in fact helpful, not just my own experience. And that's how the study came to be. It was a 12-week study where we had people who were treatment resistant, which we defined as having three or more standard of care antidepressant treatments to deal with their depression and also psychotherapy. And during the trial before people signed up, we told them, Hey, during this 12 weeks you cannot change your medication or your therapy scheduled if you're currently in psychotherapy. And we had a number of people signed up. Now some of them dropped out because they were so severe that they needed changes in their treatment, but most of the people stayed. And what we found at the end of the 12 weeks, we met with them weekly and went over the 12 steps each week or met them at their own pace. Some people, if they had a spiritual underpinning got through steps one and two pretty quickly, other people might need to spend more time there and such.
But anyway, over the 12 weeks, what we found was that initially the cohort had a Beck Depression Inventory score of ... I believe it was about 32, which is in the severe range. By the end of the study, the mean Beck Depression score had dropped to 14, which is in the mild region. So over a 50% drop and also just improvement in their functionality.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about these steps. So steps one through three, acceptance, searching, and submission. Just give us a bit of an overview of the first three steps of Ruachiatry.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. The first step you have to accept your powerlessness over your illness. And this might seem self-evident, but it is actually harder in practice because people have a lot of psychological mechanisms to deal with illness. And the first step of any kind of grieving for the loss of a loved one or just loss of functioning and health is denial. And it's very common, especially early on. The sooner we physicians can move our patients toward acceptance, the better, the quicker they are on the road to help. And so that's super important.
And then the second part of step one is commitment. Once you've accepted, "Hey, I'm powerless over this and I need help of a physician or therapist or a team," then saying, "I am committed to fighting this. I'm going to take the first steps to dig my heels in and say, 'This is hard. I don't want to do this. I'm a peaceful person. I don't want to fight, but I'm in a fight and I've got to be committed to that fight.'" Step two is searching, like I mentioned earlier. And this is where I encourage people to embark on a journey to fulfill their personal responsibility, to decide for themselves if there is a higher power, which one? Who is it? And because this acknowledgement can help people have hope and better cope with illness. And so to me that's foundational.
Gary Schneeberger:
Step two is interesting to me because I have an AA background. I went through AA in the early '90s. And the idea of a higher power of my own understanding worked for a while because I did not grow up Christian, not even nominally. But eventually as I was walking through my recovery, I started to think, God of my own understanding, isn't my own understanding what got me in this position to begin with? How is that going to help me necessarily? It wasn't enough for me. Now you will not find a greater advocate for AA. But that didn't work for me. And my story, people have heard it on the podcast because Warwick interviewed me for our 50th episode. It was a little stunt on our host interviews, cohost. But I do believe at the end of the day, God healed me of that. And I don't refer to myself as a recovering alcoholic. I believe I leaned into that and God just plucked it out of me. But that part of what you said about who is that God of your understanding, I think that's an important part for people because it's our understanding that for me, it got me in trouble. That's what made me an alcoholic and I couldn't get away from it. And I think that's probably true through your experience over a lot of different kind of illnesses, right?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
It is. And that's great insight. Actually the 12 steps were born out of that because that's already in our lexicon. It's already in medical parlance from AA, which started in the 1930s. And because of that, I started looking into AA. We had to do substance abuse stuff during residency, but it's not really my specialty. But in looking at the research and is there a branch of medicine that talks about spirituality at all? The only branch is addictionology and AA is the foundation of that. And that's where I came up with the idea of 12 steps. I actually contacted the folks from National AA in New York, and they were very encouraging and said I could use it as a template, but I just had to put a disclaimer that I'm not affiliated with AA at all and that sort of thing, which I put in the book of course.
But yeah. A study out of Stanford not too long ago, I think it was 2021, had 10,500 and something subjects. And their conclusion was that AA is a free resource that doesn't take professionals or physicians and that it works. And it works fantastic for the malady of alcoholism if people are active in the program. And just saying, "Wow. If that could be applied to general medicine and psychiatry as well, what would that mean?" If we could have something that worked that was free ... We're always talking about, oh, healthcare costs and stuff, what would that mean if a part of our sickness is due to spiritual issues? And so that's how I came up with the 12 step approach.
Warwick Fairfax:
So after searching before we move to step four, you've got submission. Submission is not a very popular word in our culture, but you talk about once we identify the spiritual power greater than ourselves, we decide to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. Submitting ourselves to a higher power to God. So talk before we get to the next one after that, why is submission important? Because it feels like counter cultural. How could submission help me?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
It is probably same with Australians as it is with American. Yeah, submission is a dirty word, right? It has a connotation of groveling at the feet of somebody who's conquered you. So you've lost and you're having to against your will do something you don't want to do. But in spirituality, it has a different connotation. If you've identified in step two, a higher power that hopefully is benevolent and powerful enough to help you with your illness, submission should be a reasonable idea. Why wouldn't I submit to somebody who loves me and is powerful? We submit to our parents. We a lot of times, submit to the state for better or worse. But they still are sinful entities and they're not all powerful. So if there is something that's all powerful and willing to help, why the heck wouldn't you consider submitting? But yeah. Submission is hard even for people of faith. We have our own strong self-will, we also have a system in place that the Bible says is run by the devil. The Bible says our three enemies of the world system, which he runs, the flesh, which is our own fallen physical nature with its appetites that we want gratified. And then the devil himself and his spiritual cohorts that are out to get us. So that's where submission comes from and it's super important.
I find that a lot of people who are believers tell me, "Hey, Dr. Mac, these first three, I got those." And I say, "Wait a second. Let's go through them and just make sure." Because I find even with believers, they obviously have submitted to some degree, but most of us have an area of our life that we say, "You know God, you can have 95%, but I'm going to hold this little piece for myself." Whether we're willing to admit that or not. Nobody is completely submitted usually and just identifying, "Hey, are there any areas you haven't turned over to God? And let's explore the reason for that." But the more you get to know God and know who he is, it just makes sense. Wow, why wouldn't I turn everything over to him?
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's talk about the next step you've got. Step four is trauma and lies. You've got step five, choosing forgiveness, which we talk about a lot. Traumas we inflicted upon others. I have to say, the worksheets you have in here were really impressive. You've got a worksheet for inventory of traumas that you've suffered, and the questions here are so specific and clear. Who hurt you? What did they do? Was it intentional? Unintentional? Lies, I believe a result of my hurt, truth according to my higher power, degree of current resentment, ask God for their strengths to forgive. And then flip it the other way, when we've inflicted harm on others, the worksheet says, whom did you hurt? What did you do? Was it intentional or unintentional? What could you have done instead? What was the nature of your character defect involved? Had you forgiven yourself admitted to God, another person, the nature of your answers? Powerful questions. Talk about these. Trauma and lies, choosing forgiveness and then traumas be inflicted upon others. Let's talk about those steps.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Sure. So steps four through nine, I call radical renovation. You're cleaning out the house, so to speak, and this is really hard work, and it takes that commitment we talked about in step one. And because of that, a lot of times for people who've had a harder time, it might involve a competent psychotherapist to help them work through this or maybe a Ruachiatry coach somebody who's trained in the principles of Ruachiatry. But step four is super important, and I tell people, take your time, especially on step four and five. It's so foundational and fundamental because we are according to the Bible, born with a fallen nature. And people say, "Our baby's sinful?" Well, if you ever had a two-year-old, you can see how selfish they are and throw tantrums. Yes, from the womb we are innately sinful. I don't mean we sin all the time, but we have that nature. And because of that, it's easier for our spiritual foes to blind us. And those who are fortunate enough to either grow up with a faith background from their family or who come to their senses because either God plucks them out or somebody tells them about it, they're now spiritually awakened and they can see things differently. But everybody has trauma to varying degrees.
And what I talk about in the book is trauma with a big T, a capital T, and then traumas with a little T. Now traumas with a big T, as far as your physical health, it could be having some terrible injury, compound bone fracture or things of that nature, cancer and things of that nature as well. And then other traumas could be things that we would all say, "Oh gosh, yeah." War, rape, watching somebody die horrifically. These sorts of things are big things that most of us don't have to go through, but some people unfortunately have. But we all have little T traumas, and these are things that we accumulate during our life. Hurt people, hurt people and we're all hurt people. And so these accumulate, and what I've found is that a lot of little T traumas can add up to big T trauma. And so we all need to look back and say, "Hey, before I was a person of faith, these things have accumulated and I need to go back, unlock the cellar door and see what's down there and deal with it, not just bury it."
And so this is a hard step, firstly, admitting and looking in the mirror and saying, what are the traumas? But who hurt me, whether it's a person or an institution. And I tell people, go back to childhood, write down everything. And so this list can be super long, which is great. It should be because you have traumas. And trauma is in the eye of the beholder. And what we found with resilience research is that what I see as traumatic, you fellas might look at it and be like, "Well, that's a piece of cake." Because we all have different coping mechanisms and see things differently. But it doesn't matter. If I experienced it as traumatic, I have the same physiologic response, I have the same psychological response and so it's traumatic to me. So going through in every individual listing these things is super important and who did it? And then identifying was it intentional or not?
What I've found is that traumas that are either born of happenstance, acts of God or war things you couldn't control or just accidental, they weren't purposeful ... Somebody hurt you, but they didn't mean to. It wasn't malicious, but they still hurt you. Those are easier to forgive even if the person doesn't come to you and ask for forgiveness. It's a lot harder when we look and say, "Gee, that was intentionally inflicted and they were trying to hurt me and that sort of thing." So that's an important aspect.
Step five goes on to another foundational truth. And that is so important. If you don't forgive completely and fully, you are carrying around what the Bible calls a root of bitterness. So this understandable anger based on you've been hurt. It can grow over time. And what I tell people is that it grows into resentment. Meaning again, sentiment comes from sentire, which is Latin that means feeling it. And so you're choosing to feel the same emotion you felt when you're hurt again and again. And it's just simply madness. And so just recognizing that this is a prison of your own choosing. And when you choose forgiveness, you choose to set two captives free. You set the person free who did this to you, but you set yourself free as well. And forgiveness is hard, especially if the person does not apologize and was malicious about it. But it's so important and it's really necessary. And that can take some time, as I mentioned.
And then looking at our own selves in the mirror. Hey, hurt people, hurt people. I've hurt people. It's not just all about me. What have I done and what potential character defects, looking at what's gone on in my own journey and identifying and look in the mirror and saying, "These are things I need to correct in order for me to be whole." And then seven is making amends where you can .this isn't always advisable nor possible to do, but when it is, it's important to reach out to people whom you've hurt and offer genuine remorse and try to make it right if you can.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's fascinating that you talk about this because Beyond the Crucible, we talk about forgiveness a lot. And we say, as obviously, I'm sure you would believe that forgiveness doesn't mean condoning what was done to you. It doesn't mean what was done to you was right, acceptable, moral. But you do it because obviously as people of faith, because we've been forgiven, those who've been forgiven much should forgive. So we often say that choosing not to forgive is like drinking poison. It just corrodes your soul. And the other thing with forgiveness is I often tell people and our church and all, it is rare that somebody will say, "I apologize," in my opinion. It can happen but most of the times they'll say, "Well, I'm sorry if that hurt you." Sorry if is never ... I tell all my kids, sorry if is not an apology. That just does not cut it.
So you've got to realize when bad things are done to you, you will rarely get the satisfaction because of the world we live in. It just won't happen most of the time. So we've make amends in the last few steps we've got from fear to faith, vigilant and sober. And then I think you've got drawing closer to God seeking spiritual wisdom. So really from eight instead of a turning point. So talk about that turning point from theater, faith and vigilant and sober drawing closer to God. Talk about how that helps your spiritual recovery if you will.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Sure. Four, five and six deal with anger, which sometimes it's like you said, if you're heard, it is justified. And so step eight deals with the other emotion that I find to be very problematic and where people get stuck and that's fear, which is very common in today's world, the state of flux that our world is in. The political discord. Obviously the pandemic that happened. There's a lot of fear and some of it's certainly understandable, but I've seen it grow in my practice with folks presenting with anxiety is super common. I think there's a spiritual way to combat it in addition to certainly some people need therapy and medicine also, and I'm not against that. To get them fully there, I think going from fear to faith is a big leap and trying to help people understand how to do that. And again, that's a process, right? Fear didn't happen overnight. A lot of times it's grown over time and additional things have happened that make one more fearful. And so that's the step there.
As far as vigilant and sober, sobriety doesn't always necessarily just mean from alcohol or drugs, although think it's best to be sober from those as well. We are all influenced. We say, "Oh, so-and-so got a DUI. They were under the influence of alcohol, right? Oh, that's bad." We can be under the influence of negative spiritual enemies as well and just unwittingly not know about it. So being sober in that regard, and like you alluded to earlier, think on things that are good and positive. We found out through research lately that thoughts are things. They actually have mass and they're not a separate thing. They're part of our soul, our mind, will and emotion. And so they're important. What you think determines your destiny to a large degree. And so reframing things from fear to faith and having that foundation is super important. And then being vigilant. Once you've cleaned out from steps four through nine, now you got to keep it clean. And so that's where the vigilance of the guard on the wall comes into play.
10 through 12 are more ... I was drawing closer to God. And James says in the Bible that draw close to God and he will draw close to you. And I found that to be true in my own spiritual walk. And so Step 10 talks about seeking spiritual wisdom. There is worldly wisdom, and it is not bad. I'm not against philosophy. But the issue with human philosophies, even from the most brilliant people, Plato, Socrates, these folks and others, is that the philosophy from spirituality is fixed. And it's this rock that doesn't change over the millennia. Whereas human philosophy, there are lots of different schools of thoughts and it can change with time just like science and new discoveries can. And so it's a shifting sand, so to speak. And so you shouldn't rely on it for your spiritual wellbeing, but certainly there's wisdom to be had from secular searches of philosophy.
But scripture and then lastly, prayer and meditation. And I go into depth about these things that whatever you decide is your higher power, study the orthodox teachings of your faith and get their spiritual books that they feel are inspired and principles are worth living by. And then prayer. I know for a fact that some spiritual being heard me, I believe it's God and Jesus, but at any rate, prayer works. There are lots of studies on that too that aren't talked about in medical school or even in general life, but prayer does work. And adding with that, a meditation upon scripture, meditation on truths, the health benefits of meditation are well-known. But the goal of meditation, unlike transcendental meditation for example, isn't to empty your mind, it's to fill your mind with truth and have that be the focus of your thoughts.
Warwick Fairfax:
There might be somebody here who maybe today is their worst day, and it's like, "I feel spiritually empty, bankrupt. There is no hope. I'm not sure anybody cares about me. There's no higher power that cares." They might be in a very dark place. What would a word of hope be for somebody that maybe today is their worst day and they just feel spiritually bankrupt? They might hate themselves, hate other people hate the world. They might be in a very dark spiritual in soul place. What would a word of hope be for that person?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. I would say to that person, you are so important. You have no idea the importance that you carry. You are made in the image of God. As difficult as that is to fathom, it's the truth in my opinion. And if you haven't already, I would encourage you to explore, especially the God who claims to be the creator of you and everything. Who claims to be all-powerful and who claims to be omniscient so he can hear your prayers. He knows everything at all times and he's omnipresent. He's not bound by location. So whether you're in the middle of the desert or in church, he hears your prayers just the same. And he also claims to be Jehovah Rapha, which means God the healer. He claims to be the great physician. And if you reach out to him and really earnestly search, you'll find the truth. There is hope. But it doesn't come in things that the world offers. Their passing away as the Bible says. And the only thing that won't pass away is our souls. And you're going to spend eternity somewhere and why not go ahead and surrender your own will to God so that you can be one of those people who is assured that you're going to spend forever with a loving God.
And also remind people you will eventually be healed. If you're a believer. People think, oh, you die and you can either go to heaven or hell, sort of true. But the truth of matter is God made a perfect world. He said everything was good and it got wrecked by us and the influences that influenced us negatively. But the good news is he promises he's coming back and he's going to restore everything to its perfect state. In fact, at some point, he is going to make a new heaven and a new earth because this one's a mess and he's going to remake us. Our bodies will die, but he's going to give us new bodies that will be eternal and that will be without sin, sickness, or death. So if you're a believer, you have that assurance, you will get out of your trouble at some point. And the Bible says even that our troubles in light of eternity are light and momentary. And they may not feel light. They may not feel light. You may say, "Dr. McCormack, you don't know what I'm going through." I do. I sit with people in pain every day, and I've been through my own. There is hope and there's a way out. So I'd encourage you to examine what you believe about a higher power.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word on the subject has been spoken, and our guest, Tom McCormack, also known as Dr. Thomas McCormack, has just spoken about the substance of what we're talking about, but I've still got a little housekeeping left to do, and that is Tom, to have you let our listeners and viewers know how can they find out more about your book Hidden Medicine and more about you on the internet.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, thanks Gary. I have a website called www.hidden-medicine.com. Usually you could find me if you type in Hidden Medicine or Dr. Thomas McCormack. But also the book Hidden Medicine is available now on Amazon for pre-sale. It will be in bookstores everywhere on October 28 so coming up real shortly. And it's my sincere desire that it helps a lot of people give some clarity to some of these things that a lot of people find confusing. Really tried to write it for lay people. And my second hope is that the medical community will embrace it and realize that yeah, there are things beyond medicine and surgery and therapies that we're missing. We've left untapped and we need to tap into that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks. Now, the plane is indeed fully on the ground. Time to gather your peanut bags and head off the plane. Warwick, we just got done speaking with Tom McCormack, which felt weird to me because he's Dr. Thomas McCormack. So I always felt strange every time I called him Tom. I don't know why. It's the old soul in me. I can't refer to a doctor except by doctor, but we did it. He had some very interesting things to talk about from his own experience, his crucible, not getting into medical school, some other ones that followed after he was a doctor already, and then his new book, Hidden Medicine, some things that he talked about there. So what is the little bow on the package you'd like to put on our conversation to hit on? What was the most important thing that Tom had to say to us?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Dr. McCormack, Tom and his book, Hidden Medicine, it's so interesting because he's a psychiatrist, so he's not against medicine, Western medicine, but what he is I think advocating is for a more holistic view of health, which includes the spiritual side. And he talks about negative forces. Some could call it spiritual warfare, which he talks about a bit in his book, but negative influences. If we are watching the wrong things that just pull us down and just make us feel depressed about life, angry at ourselves, angry at others, just indulging that. It can be through substance abuse, alcohol or drugs. Those are things that erode our soul in addition to obviously they can hurt our health. He's advocating just be aware of that. Be aware of those forces that can really pull us down if we let them. Life is tough enough, but just really talking about things in his 12 steps of Ruachiatry that really fill us up. And he talked about things like forgiveness which should talk a lot about on this podcast, which doesn't mean condoning. It can be forgiving others, forgiving yourself, and just it can be making amends, filling yourself with truth. From his perspective and our perspective that could mean that the truth of the scriptures of the Bible. But whatever your spiritual religious paradigm is, fill yourself with truth.
Avoid the negative influences. Focus on the positive and didn't really get this into this in our discussion, but focus on what we call a life of significance. In the book, he does talk about one of the highest forms, I think spiritual, psychological health talks about other ... When you're focused on, from my perspective, a higher purpose or on helping other people, that's certainly, I think to me, a good part of spiritual health and soul health. So really, I think the big message is when we are told to focus on what we eat, avoid foods that are unhealthy. fill yourself with healthy foods, well, the same is true in spiritual health. Avoid influences that bring your soul down and fill yourself with influences that are good for your soul. That will both help your overall wellness as well as your overall outlook on life. So what's fascinating is he comes at it from a psychiatric clinical perspective, and his view is soul health, in my words and our words really [inaudible 00:59:15]. Avoid the things that drag you down. Fill yourself with truth, whether it's biblical truth or whatever truth you think is meaningful to you. Fill yourself with truth. That is the path to spiritual health and soul health.
Gary Schneeberger:
And remember this until the next time that we are together that we understand. We know your crucible experiences are difficult. Warwick knows that. Tom knows that. I know that. You've heard us all talk about that either here or in other episodes of the show. But know this also. That it's not the end of your story. Your crucible is not the end of your story. If you learn the lessons from it, and if you apply those lessons moving forward, you can chart yourself a course to the greatest destination you can ever reach, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready, visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Applying the Actionable Truths 8: Perseverance
Arriving at the place after a crucible where you believe you have what it takes to overcome setbacks and failures is only possible, we discuss today, if we’re able to muster and maintain perseverance.
That’s why it’s the 8th actionable truth in our Beyond The Crucible Roadmap — essential for turning trials into triumphs. And listen closely — you won’t want to miss Warwick sharing what he learned about perseverance in bouncing back from his $2.25 billion dollar crucible.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Those early challenges are often the hardest. Once you just build that muscle of perseverance, it will feel like it's easier to move forward and maybe the vision becomes a bit more possible because you think to yourself, "I may not be perfect, but you know what? I think I have what it takes."
Gary Schneeberger:
I have what it takes. Arriving at that place after a crucible is only possible, we discussed this week, if we're able to muster and maintain perseverance. That's why it's the eighth actionable truth in our Beyond the Crucible roadmap, essential for turning trial into triumph. So keep listening. You won't want to miss Warwick sharing about what he learned about perseverance as he was bouncing back from his own $2.25 billion crucible.
Welcome friends to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. It is one of the episodes that certainly in 2025, Warwick and I have most looked forward to doing because it is on what we have been calling since the start of the year are Beyond the Crucible roadmap. And just to reset you, since we do this once a month, we call it the series within a show, we do one episode per month, this is for the month of October. And just to reset you, the Beyond the Crucible roadmap is our refreshed way, it's not an entirely new way, but it is more laser focused that we help you to get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity. And we have dubbed that the Beyond the Crucible roadmap. Why? I'm going to tell you why. I'm going to read it exactly from the page. We describe it as how we help people turn their worst day into their greatest opportunity. We provide them essential actionable truths to inspire hope, enable and equip them to write their own life affirming story. That sounds like something that is worth pursuing, doesn't it? We think so and we hope-
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Thank you, Warwick. We think so, and we hope you have been thinking so and we'll think so after we finish this episode of it. The roadmap, just to let you know for the back story, the roadmap has been built from our proprietary statistically valid research into how people experience crucibles and what we've learned from our own experience and from the experiences of the guests we've had on the podcast about what it takes to turn trials into triumph.
The most revolutionary news for us in all of this though, is that in analyzing this roadmap, we identified what we're calling the actionable truths of the brand. To pass these life-changing truths along to you, our listeners and viewers, this year, we're going to do something similar to what we did last year with our series within the show. As I said, once a month, we're going to talk about this, featuring stories from Warwick's book Crucible Leadership. That's what we did last year. Now we're going to spend 2025, we have spent 2025 up until now going through each of the 10 actionable truths one per month and exploring the ways they can help you make your way guide your path, walk your steps along this roadmap that we're talking about.
And Warwick, as I always do in these episodes, I'm going to ask you this question. Level set for us in our discussion why actionable truths? What do we mean by that phrase? Because it's not something you hear people talk about every day.
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed. At Beyond the Crucible, our focus is to help you figure out how do you get beyond your worst day to lead a life of significance? So what we have now is what we're calling beyond the Crucible roadmap, how you go from trial or crucible to triumph, which we call a life of significance. We have found that there are 10 actionable truths that are catalysts in helping you move along your journey from your worst day to where you're living a life-affirming vision. So in other words, you're triumphing and leading a life of significance. These actionable truths have always been part of our thinking and were actually chapters in the book I wrote Crucible Leadership.
Gary Schneeberger:
So that being said, how do these actionable truths actually help us move from crucible to a life of significance, move from trial to triumph? Because that's what we're all about here. And I'm going to tease just a little bit because that name, actionable truths, continues to impress me that that was what we came up with because truth isn't truth if you don't act on it. And that's really how you get from trial to triumph with the actionable truths, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
That's certainly right. I mean, these actionable truths we view as accelerators, enablers. It helps us move from a crucible or trial to a life of significance or triumph. So I think you could make a good case that without these actionable truths, you're going nowhere. It's like having an engine without fuel, or as we often refer to in The Fast and the Furious series, if you don't have nitrous oxide, you have a great car, but nothing's happening. So basically without these actionable truths, you could well be stuck at your trial, your worst data pit of despair. So get out of that pit to begin to move forward and to bring your vision to reality, to a space where you're really living a life significance. I think you can make a very good case that these actionable truths are absolutely critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
And we are on, as I said at the outset, actionable truth number eight. And just to help you understand, folks, the process of how this all works, this is the vision portion of the roadmap. Before this, we dealt with the trial. That's your crucible. That's the first big grouping. The second one is processing. You're processing what happened to you. Now you've launched a vision. You've said, "Okay, here's the vision I want to pursue." You've created a vision. So it's the last step of the vision category that we're going through.
So Warwick, now that we're here, now that we're at perseverance, why is it the critical eighth step after a crucible to begin the journey of recovering from a crucible? As you were going through this in preparation, this one seems particularly important in this process that we've been describing.
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the keys to moving beyond your worst day, your crucible is perseverance. Without perseverance, you're probably going to be stuck in the pit and the vision won't happen. Your life significance won't happen. We define perseverance as continuing to move forward in pursuit of your vision, even in the face of difficulties and obstacles. Perseverance is hope, believing in your heart of hearts that there is a brighter future ahead.
Now, we know that perseverance is not easy. You might feel knocked down. This is your worst day. You're in the pit of despair, and it's not easy to move beyond your crucible. It's not easy to move forward. But perseverance is like a muscle. With practice and some effort that muscle will grow. And really the key is that perseverance requires you to take one step at a time. And it might seem that step might seem very small. As we'll get into later, I found that very true in my own life, the power of one small step. And one step begins to form another step, and pretty soon I think you'll find that muscle of perseverance, which might've felt non-existent before, will grow and will improve. And you'll find that you have more perseverance than you thought possible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, that's one of the great things about these actionable truths is that they can grow, we can get better at them as we go. It's not like you're born with a certain level of perseverance and then that's all you get and it goes away. No, you can build it.
And I am going to do what I do every episode. Here's my enormous dictionary, which is twice as big as my head, The American Dictionary of the English Language by Noah Webster, his first dictionary from 1828. And here's what his definition of perseverance is, and it's fascinating. He says this about perseverance, "Persistence in anything undertaken, continued pursuit, continued pursuit, or prosecution of any business or enterprise begun. Patience and perseverance overcome the greatest difficulties." He quotes someone named Clarissa saying in this definition. That to me is a big thing.
And Warwick, this is a good time, I think, to point out to folks, because I got a little confused as we were... Not confused. I was a little tangled up as we were prepping, and I haven't talked to you about this. But we talk a lot about the importance of resilience in bouncing back from your crucible. And I think sometimes people can think they're sort of the same thing. But I found an article which defined perseverance, not Webster, but an article that defined perseverance as this, "A continued effort, the determination to reach a goal and work at it until you do." Right? Here's resilience. Resilience is, "The ability to be happy and successful after something difficult or traumatic has happened to you." I think perseverance and resilience are sort of cousins. They're not the same thing, but one flows into the other. And certainly resilience, though talk about it a lot, it's not one of the actionable truths that we have. But I think having them hand in hand really makes a huge difference in your ability to go from trial to triumph. Right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's a good point. I think perseverance breeds resilience. Without perseverance, you can't have resilience. So how do you get resilience? It's just when things seem to be going wrong, you just keep pressing on. It's continued effort, as the dictionary talks about. It's continued pursuit of a goal. It's not giving up, not backing down. So perseverance is, yeah, I mean perseverance is critical and you will, I think, be more resilient. If you keep having perseverance and you say, "Okay, I didn't give up the last time. I won't give up this time. It's not going to defeat me. I'm going to keep going." And that comes from just having continued perseverance over the course of your life. It is a muscle that can grow, that can breed resilience and some degree of self-confidence, "Okay, being there done that. I've been through worse than this before." It can actually lead you to having a calmer spirit in the face of trials because you've had perseverance and you've been therefore resilient. So they are cousins, but I would say it's not impossible to have unless you have perseverance first.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, right.
Warwick Fairfax:
If that makes sense?
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's why the eighth actionable truth is indeed perseverance. And as we have done with all of these sections of the roadmap, in this particular section, in the vision section, there are three stages in our research, qualitative and quantitative, that have shown us people experience in this vision section of the roadmap. And the first one is experimenting with new conditions, trials and first failures. Warwick, how does perseverance help us as we do this, as we walk this out?
Warwick Fairfax:
As we formulate our vision, we'll, undoubtedly a trial runs an experiment. Some will work, some won't work. That's the nature of experiments. And so you've got to have perseverance to be able to cope with those trial visions that didn't work out. Maybe you need to retool the vision, go in a different direction. It's critical.
So to bring our vision to reality, we'll also need help. We'll need help from what we call fellow travelers, people who both encourage us and come alongside us to move our vision forward. And we might find that some team members don't work out. They may not be a good fit, and that will lead to conversations that are often pretty challenging. We'll need to have perseverance to deal with those setbacks of potentially picking the wrong team members or team members moving on. So you need perseverance to be able to bring your vision forward through the trials, and you need to have perseverance as you're bringing team members on board. Some will work out and some won't work out. Life is not easy and bringing a vision to reality is not easy too. So perseverance is absolutely critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
I'm not a science guy. I'm a word guy. So I'm not sure of the word, but we've all seen those things where it's like a flow chart or something that you do this and then this can happen. And then you go this way and it moves up and down and it walks you through a process. I think perseverance is something bad happens. You start this new first failure, you start this first step and you hit a roadblock. And two things can happen. It can go down. You can stop. You can give up. As we say all the time. You can lie under the covers and bed with the covers over your head. Or the second one's perseverance.
I think perseverance is, in many cases, the first action toward the next goal that you have to take after a crucible. Because if you don't muster that, if you don't muster the, I'm going to walk through the wall, if I have to walk through the symbolic wall that is stopping me. If you have those stumbles and trips that follow your crucible, stopping isn't an option. So you have to have the perseverance to go through it. I think this is where the pursuit of a life of significance really can bog down of all the things on the roadmap. If we don't develop perseverance and act on that, we can high-center, we can get stuck, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. Without perseverance, you're proverbially stuck in bed, you're not moving forward, the vision isn't happening. You're stuck. So it's absolutely critical. Without perseverance, you're probably still in the pit of despair. I mean, why keep going? What's the point? You just give up. So perseverance is critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. The second major point from our research that shows as people go through in this stage of vision is growth and new skills. And that includes preparing for major change. In this particular part of the map work. What are the benefits of perseverance? And I think I know what you're going to say, not just because we talked about it beforehand.
Warwick Fairfax:
So when you think about growth and new skills, there's growing the team, growing the vision, but there's also growing yourself as a person. And they're starting with the internal so to speak. One of the first things you need to do is to think of growth and skills with you as a leader, growing and self-awareness and character and skills and abilities. And so we talk about growth and the holistic sense of the word. There'll be days in which they feel like bad days and you'll feel like, "I'm not the guy, I'm not the person. I feel wholly inadequate to the task." And you might feel like you don't have the skills and abilities. And maybe you might feel that the crucible you went through, the damage you did to yourself or the damage that was done to you caused some level of damage, enough that it's holding the vision back from reality.
So you can get in this doom loop of, "I'm not good enough and as a human being, I'm not courageous enough. I don't have enough character. I don't enough skills and abilities and perseverance," means despite all of this, putting one step in front of the other and say, "Okay, I'm not perfect. Yes, I've made mistakes. Yes, maybe I feel a little broken or a lot broken," but it's just moving forward. And sometimes it might be, depending on the severity of the illness might be, okay, maybe I need some counseling, some therapy, maybe I need to talk to friends. What do I need to do to be able to move forward to be able to, at least in some sense, heal from some of the internal damage? Are there skills and abilities that I don't have? I might have aptitude but not training. How can I get trained in that?
So there's a whole internal level of perseverance that fuels growth, and it might mean that you need to bring new team members on board. So sometimes you start with a vision. You've got one or two people on your team, either unofficially or on the payroll, and as the vision, the organization grows, you might feel they were great at one time in the journey, but you need people with different skills. And you've got to be willing to say, "Okay, maybe I need to let some people go and bring new people on board." It doesn't need to be done in a malicious way, but if you have a vision, you want to make sure you've got the people around you. And perseverance means having sometimes loving but difficult conversations. Perseverance means having the courage to have those difficult conversations.
Gary Schneeberger:
Is it safe to say, and I didn't thought about it until you just said it, that as your vision changes and grows, evolves, that your persistence in many ways has to change and grow and evolve. What you just described was different levers to push and pull on persistence depending on what's happening with your vision. That seems to be a true statement, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, as you grow in your perseverance and persistence, you will have higher perseverance, higher persistence, you will give up less. You won't stop at the first roadblock. You will have more courage, more conviction, whether it's things you need to work on about yourself, whether it's your team, maybe you've had a couple of difficult conversations with folks. It's never going to be incredibly easy, but it'll be easier the next time you have that difficult conversation.
So it is like a flywheel in that the more that you have perseverance and persistence, those boulders will seem a little smaller. They may not be in reality, but will feel smaller to you. And so those early challenges are often the hardest. Once you just build that muscle of perseverance, it will feel like it's easier to move forward and maybe the vision becomes a bit more possible because you think to yourself, "I may not be perfect, but you know what? I think I have what it takes. There's an obstacle here. I don't have the answer today. But between me and my team, we'll figure it out. We did before. No reason to believe we won't do it again."
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. The third big area in this vision section of the roadmap is preparing for big change, grand trial and revelation and insight. How does perseverance help us move along in this section of the roadmap?
Warwick Fairfax:
So when we're trying to get from our worst day to a life-affirming vision that leads to a life of significance, there's often going to be inflection points, significant change where we'll need a high perseverance. The first one is just deciding to get out of bed, proverbially speaking, and we feel so angry at ourselves, so angry at others. When this doom loop of depression at some level and anger, resentment. We're just worn out. The first huge step of perseverance is to say, "Okay, I'm not going to be defined by this worst day. I'm going to think of one positive step." And we often talk about this, whether it's walk around the block, reading a book, having lunch with a friend, preferably one that can encourage us. That's a huge step.
As we begin to have a glimpse of a life-affirming vision, it's easy for voices in our head, so to speak, to say, "Oh, it'll never work. You're hopeless. Give it up." And we need to quiet those voices of despondency and self-incrimination and say, "Okay, it's just a glimpse. Let me talk a friend or two, a potential colleague. Let me make some trials and experiments. Perseverance will lead you to say, "Okay, I don't have all the answers today, but maybe tomorrow, next month, I will." And as we bring team members on, that will require perseverance too. Some will work out, some won't work out. Even the ones that do work out, there might need to be challenging conversations. Maybe you'll need to move people to different seats on the bus. That's not easy. And ultimately, we might find this vision has grown so big or maybe changed that we might find maybe we're the ones that need to get off the bus. Maybe we need to hand the vision over to somebody else, maybe to our team.
And that also requires character and perseverance because if this vision is not about us and about helping others and fulfilling some higher purpose, we don't want to be the roadblock either. So at these inflection points of proverbially getting out of bed when you feel so bad about yourself or about life, when you have the glimpse of a vision that seems daunting, you're trying to get the right team members on board. Or when you feel like maybe you're at a point in life where, yeah, maybe I'm at an age where I don't want to do it this more, or life circumstances change, or you just feel like it's gotten beyond you, you need to be willing to hand it off. So perseverance is really critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
We've been talking a lot almost exclusively here about taking action in the spirit of perseverance, taking action toward perseverance. But there are some things, and I'm thinking about my own struggle with alcoholism, my perseverance there was to not do something. I had to manifest the lack of grabbing a drink and having it. That was my perseverance. I had to persevere through not doing the thing that I was doing. That's part of it too that we can't overlook. In some crucibles, perseverance can mean not doing something that will go the opposite of the vision that you want to create, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a good point. There are things that can enhance our life and character, and there are things that can drain it. We can hang out with the wrong people, the wrong crowd in the neighborhood, maybe as teenagers or twenty-somethings, and maybe they're doing things that are not helpful, maybe destructive, but we're part of the gang. We want to be accepted. So we end up going down a road where we're doing things that are actually hurting people. Somehow we convince ourselves maybe that's not the case. There may be things that we're watching or other maybe we're just feeling this despondent lethargy, so we're just binging on Netflix or video games. Again, it's not bad in itself, but you don't want to just sit and watch a screen for 23 hours a day or play video games all night or whatever it is. So there's all sorts of coping mechanisms in which we can just check out of life. So we have to have the perseverance to not do the things that are pulling us down.
And everybody has different temptations, different tendencies that can pull them in a direction that's not helpful. As we talked recently on the podcast about gratitude. Well, maybe we have a tendency to indulge the doom loop of negativity and we go down the road of, "This wasn't fair what happened to me. I'm such a terrible person." And you spend hours recycling everything they did to you, everything you did wrong, and this endless doom loop that just pulls you down, which is almost designed to sap you of any perseverance to do anything constructive. That's where you need to just stop it and just say, "I'm not doing that." Maybe have the perseverance to do what we talked about recently with gratitude that will tend to fuel our perseverance ironically. So it's a very good point, Gary. You've got to be willing not just have the perseverance to do things, but to stop doing things that are very destructive to you. Inevitably, they won't be just destructive to you. There'll be destructive to those that we love and care about. That's the way destruction seems to work. Typically, it's not just restricted to ourselves.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, for sure. We have arrived at my favorite part of these actionable truths episodes. I think I want to have Scott develop for the last one some theme music when we get to this part. Here's the theme music where we talk about Patient Zero at Beyond the Crucible, and that is our founder and host, Warwick Fairfax. Examples of this actionable truth in action from Warwick's experience with Crucibles. So the question to you, Warwick, is this, talk about your experience with perseverance, how that's looked in your life as you've walked through crucibles.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's funny, I remember as I was writing a book a number of years ago, Crucible Leadership. There's a lot of things I write about that I'm not good at. I don't like sales and I'm not this upfront kind of person. I'm more retiring, so to speak, or certainly my younger-
Gary Schneeberger:
You and I have that in common, by the way.
Warwick Fairfax:
Maybe not, but that's why you need a team.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's right. Amen. Amen.
Warwick Fairfax:
People with different skills and aptitudes and characteristics.
Gary Schneeberger:
Fellow travelers.
Warwick Fairfax:
Amen. Well said. So I've talked a lot about things I'm not good at, but ironically, perseverance is not one of them. I have very high perseverance. For me, where perseverance maybe wasn't helpful, and you could arguably call a stubbornness, was I'm very idealistic and I was driven to bring the vision of my family's 150-year-old media business back to the vision of the founder, my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax. My father died in early 1987. A few months later, I finished my MBA at Harvard Business School and I ended up launching a 2.25 billion takeover of the family company. So this was both to restore the vision of the company to the founder, and I felt that management were making poor decisions and needed to be changed. So I was idealistic and I had very high perseverance of that mission to launch the takeover, change management, bring the vision back to the ideals of the founder.
But because of my perseverance, when challenges arose, for me, there was no breakpoint. There was no stopping. There was no abandoning the takeover. So a saint of you would've been not to do the takeover. As I've mentioned in other podcasts, earlier in 1987, I had some advisors, some good ones who said, "Warwick, the numbers don't add up. If there's a hostile corporate takeover from a takeover raider," which was one of the things that I was right about, "get together with the family. I mean, just figure out another way." But of course I wanted to take over, change management, bring the vision back to the ideals of the founder. So ignored that advice. I didn't give up. I went right through that obstacle of good advice and listened to the bad advisors that said, "Sure, for a good fee, we are happy to do it for you." Whether it's exceeded or not. In the long term, I think their focus is more on the takeover being concluded.
So I think the lesson for me is not to abandon perseverance, but given that I have very high perseverance, be very careful where I channel that muscle of perseverance, make sure it's the right goal with the, I mean my motives, I think objectively were good, but make sure it's the right goal. And if for some reason a roadblock comes that says maybe you need to change the vision or change the team, don't say, "No changes. We're going to keep going with the same vision, same team." You have to be careful where you channel perseverance because it can lead, if unchecked, to decisions that are unhelpful.
So for me, where perseverance was helpful is in the 1990s after the takeover failed, that decade of the '90s was very difficult. We moved to the US where my wife is from, and perseverance helped me slowly begin to try to move on from that searing crucible of losing my family's 150-year old media business. It wasn't about the money, which has never been a particularly huge motive for me. It was feeling like I let my father down, my great-great-grandfather down, John Fairfax, somehow God down, because I felt like God had this vision, I thought to bring the vision back to the image of the founder, and I kind of let God down with the vision, which as a person of faith, was absolutely devastatingly painful and searing.
So perseverance led me to realize objectively, yes, of course I made mistakes and I get into them in great detail on my book. But objectively speaking, there were divisions in my family going back decades. It was a very challenging situation irrespective of what I did or didn't do, even if I hadn't launched the takeover, those challenges and divisions, they were going to be very difficult to solve.
What's interesting as a person of faith is there's one passage I would say that has been key to fueling my perseverance through the challenges. It has been a bit like rocket fuel for my perseverance. I have high perseverance innately, but this just really helps take it to another level. So it's Philippians 3:7-14. It starts off, "But whatever was to my profit, I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. For His sake. I've lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him. Not having a righteousness of my own that comes through the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."
So that sense that ultimately the things of this world are meaningless. So just reading through the scripture over and over again, having the perseverance to do that fueled my growth and character and my growth and understanding God's purposes, is ultimately the things of this world, even a big media company, is nothing compared to knowing the Lord.
And so then later on in 12 through 14, it says, "Not that I've already obtained all this or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I did not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it, but one thing I do, forgetting what is behind is straining toward what is ahead. I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." So forget what's behind. Forget those past mistakes. Yes, I made them, but endlessly dwelling on them does not help me at all. Strain toward what is the head. Press on toward the goal. So really part of it is, Lord, where do you want me to head?
So one of the things that fuels perseverance is when we link it to our innate values and beliefs. If we feel like, okay, I'm not perfect. I made mistakes, but I need to move forward. The vision is too important. And so when you anchor your vision in your beliefs, it really helps fuel your perseverance. And this is almost like a mantra. I must have gone through it every day in those early years. Forgetting what is behind is straining toward what is ahead. Straining toward what is ahead requires a lot of perseverance. So that scripture fueled my perseverance.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's interesting you talking about leaning into that scripture because what you're talking about there as you're going through what you're going through is the second actionable truth that we talked about in the series, and that's self-reflection. But here's what it's not. It's self-reflection, it's reflecting on. You're putting that stuff away, you're reflecting on it, but you're not ruminating on it. That's not self-recrimination, it's not self-rumination. It's self-reflection. And it's taking the good stuff and moving aside the stuff that isn't going to help you. And that's what you talked about here. And that's one of the things I love about this roadmap is that as you're talking of your experience, we can go back and map it to areas of what we've been through and where we're headed. And what you just described is self-reflection. You went through self-reflection and that self-reflection fueled your perseverance. Is that fair?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's self-reflection in order to learn, but to move forward. To throw away the things that are holding me back, like I'm a terrible person and I destroyed 150-year-old media company, it's all my fault. Well, I made mistakes. It wasn't all my fault objectively, but that's the past. Where do I go now? From my faith perspective, where do I feel God calling me?
So as we get into the 1990s, I found it almost impossible to get a job with the resume that basically said form a media mogul. I could say I work hard and I'm humble, I like to think, but it's like I couldn't even get an interview.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. You're the only person still that I know, Warwick, who had to dumb down his resume to get a job. I know a lot of people who've inflated it, but never dumbed it down except you.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, I definitely did. It didn't really feel that bad at the time because, I don't know, it didn't. But so eventually I got a job at a local aviation services company in Maryland where we live.
But then there was an inflection point and I felt like I was not using all the abilities that God gave me. I was doing well, but I felt like I could do more. And so that required perseverance to say, "I'm going to leave this job. I'm comfortable. I'm doing well. But I'm not doing, I feel like everything that God called me to do and not using all my skills and abilities. So I left. That was a big step, an inflection point. That required perseverance. So that led me to pursue training and certification as an International Coach Federation executive coach.
In 2008, I gave a talk in church to illustrate, a sermon. The pastor of my church in Annapolis, Maryland asked me to give this ten-minute sermon illustration. I'm not this charismatic speaker type. I don't typically like being upfront, but fine. If I can do something that helps, I will. That ten-minute sermon illustration led me to decide to write my book, Crucible Leadership. That required monumental levels of perseverance. Imagine writing a couple hours a day, because I couldn't do more. It was too painful, about some of the worst days of your life, some of the biggest mistakes. I mean, it was unbelievably painful, but I kept moving forward. I'm reminded as we often say, what Margie Warrell, a fellow executive coach in Australia, and she says, "For the sake of what?" Well, for the sake of what was I writing this book? To help people get beyond their worst days and live a life as significance. Paying for a purpose, to use that oft-use phrase. That's, okay, this is painful, but there's a reason for why I'm doing it. That fueled my perseverance.
And just getting the book published, it took years. I tried to get some folks in interested in Australia. And because my name and the family is prominent, I could definitely talk to book publishers, some of the major ones and literary agents. And it was like, "Well, this is an interesting story, but it's quite a lot of years ago now. And we want the sensational version where you dis on family members." And I wasn't willing to do that. I'm happy to talk about my own failures, but I really don't want to get into bad-mouthing other family members. It just was not part of my value set. So that didn't happen. So it took a few more years in which one publisher said, "Really, to publish a book," it was called Crucible Leadership, at the time, some thought maybe it would work in the business leadership space. Well, you need a brand, you need a following, you need an email list and social media following, blogs. And so that led me to found Beyond the Crucible. And that actually led to this wonderful team that we have and the podcast blog and social media. Well, none of this would've happened without perseverance. I want to get this book published.
And so before we got the book published, we actually had launched this podcast and blog and social media, and now it's not just to get the book published in of itself. I love telling stories that people who bounce back from their worst days, and some of the thoughts I have on how you get beyond your worst day to live a life and significance. But at each step of the road, when you go back to those early days in the early 1990s when, I wasn't clinically depressed, but it was not in a good place, it took perseverance to get out of bed and say, "Okay, I'll send out a few more letters to trying to get a job." And none of which happened. And took perseverance and a bit of humility to go to a temp agency that found temp jobs for financial analysts. That was the first step to getting that job at the Aviation Services Company. It was not easy just to keep moving forward.
So certainly in my story, perseverance has led me to be stubborn. But when I've focused it on areas that really I feel like the Lord is leading me to and using my skills and abilities for my own vision, not an inherited vision, it's been incredibly valuable.
Gary Schneeberger:
And again, I have a cheat sheet of some of the stuff that you talked about here, what you just talked about as you were telling your stories, and one thing that sticks out about everything that you just mentioned. Yes, perseverance was a big part of it, but another big part of it, and I think it's important for us to point out this is, if not a cousin of perseverance, it's in the same zip code, same neighborhood, same family, somewhere, a second cousin twice removed, but courage. Everything that you just mentioned, you can't be afraid. You have to summon the courage to take that step forward, right? Even little steps require big courage sometimes. And that's what I think you've described as you've talked about that, about your experience. Help people understand that connection. To manifest perseverance, even in a little step, it does require summoning courage, doesn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, that is well-said. I mean, courage does fuel perseverance. And what I'd say it fuels courage is conviction. I've always been an idealist. What led me to launch the takeover was not about me, it wasn't about ego. I mean, I'm pretty self-aware, not very self-aware. I don't believe that was it. It was more, as I said, to change management and bring the company back to the ideals of the founder.
So now what leads me forward with Beyond The Crucible is a desire to help people. That powerful conviction gives me courage. I mean, for me, I'm basically more on the shy, retiring end of the spectrum, certainly was. For me to speak, which I did a fair amount as part of the book launch, that's not a normal, natural thing for me to do. It's not my happy place. It's not a comfortable zone for me. So why did I do that? Because the message is important. So I got some training and help from somebody that was very good at helping people learn how to speak and craft a good speech. I think I got to the point where I was actually adequate, if not good, certainly judging by the response of the audience.
Gary Schneeberger:
Absolutely. Yep.
Warwick Fairfax:
But that required hard work, and yes, it required courage to say, "Okay, this is not my happy place. Yes, there's a possibility people could mock or laugh or fall asleep, which is probably worse than ridicule. Just people are asleep. Wake me up when this is over." So yeah, courage is really a requirement for perseverance. What fuels courage is conviction, which is why we say all the time that you want to anchor your vision, your life of significance in your deeply held values, your faith. That's what fuels courage, which fuels perseverance that fuels you accomplishing your life for significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, so we've reached the end of the road here. We've covered a lot of ground. You've brought a lot of insight to this part of the roadmap. What's the number one takeaway you'd like listeners and viewers to draw from this episode in particular? This just feels like a especially important episode of the Actionable Truth Series. What's the one truth within this truth that you want people to walk away with?
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, obviously perseverance has to be channeled in the right direction, otherwise it can be seen as stubbornness. So be careful what you devote your life to, and I'm especially sensitive in light of the takeover. But to come back from your worst day and move forward, it does require a high degree of perseverance. To begin to formulate a life-affirming vision that leads to a life of significance will require perseverance. And to bring that vision to reality with the great team will require high perseverance. High perseverance is almost the price of admission. You want to move forward from your worst day because it will not be easy. There are days in which it'll be excruciating. You've got to have perseverance. And it really, yes, perseverance requires a lot of courage, and that's why we really talk a lot about getting out of the pit.
One of the things we find with pretty much every guest we've had is one of the things that's helped propel them forward is they've come up with a vision that's often, I don't want anybody to go through what I went through. I want to help people come out of the pit who've been in the similar pit to me. And that vision, that life-affirming vision is so strong that it almost compels them to have perseverance because it's just such a strong conviction. So I'd say perseverance is often fueled by conviction. But certainly your vision to become reality, you've got to have a high perseverance. And it all starts with what's one step I can move the ball forward today? Forget about tomorrow.
And that's one of the things that I really haven't mentioned that I think is going to be helpful to folks is I have a very good ability to compartmentalize. So I'm not focused on tomorrow or the next day. And I'm a strategic planner by nature, so I do tend to think ahead, but I tend to think of, "Okay, what do I need to do now?" I remember when I was in university at Oxford, I would think, "Okay." This is back in the early '80s, there was sort of worry about the Soviet Union and cruise missiles and nuclear war, and it was in the paper and people were demonstrating. It was a reality. I remember thinking, this is a silly device, but it was effective because all my whole degree depended on those final exams. That's the way they do that at Oxford. I would just say, "Okay, I've got my exam at this time today. I'm not going to worry about anything after this exam. I won't have this useless device that's going to be nuclear war. The world's going to end. I'm not going to worry about the rest of the next three or four exams. All I'm going to do is nothing else matters, just this exam."
You don't have to use my mental device, but perseverance. One of the keys to it is, okay, what's this one step? I'm not going to worry about the other steps. And what if this and that. What's this one step I need to do today? And be very disciplined about blocking everything else out of your brain. What's this one step I'm going to focus on? Once you accomplish that, then the next step and the next step. You've got to be disciplined about just crowding out of your mind, clearing your mind of anything other than that one step, no matter how small. Don't say, "Well ah, but that's pointless. What if there's..." No. Focus on that. So one of the things that fuels perseverance is laser-like focus on that step and ignoring everything else other than that one step. One step leads to another, and that leads to perseverance, if not high perseverance.
Gary Schneeberger:
That was laser-like focus work on landing the plane on our conversation here on the eighth actionable truth that we've been discussing in depth here today.
Folks, each month, just to remind you, we will take a look at a new one and how it is connected to the previous one to build out our Beyond the Crucible roadmap. And next time we'll be discussing, and I'm going to call for it, Warwick. I'm going to call for the drum roll. Scott, give me a drum roll. Next time we will be discussing redemption.
So until the next time we're together, folks, please remember this. We want you to believe these truths that we talk about, but we also want you to act on them because that's what's going to help you along the road map from trial to triumph. We will see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit BeyondTheCrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
The Healing Power of Hidden Medicine: Dr. Thomas McCormack
That’s our guest this week, Dr. Thomas McCormack, has done pioneering research into how adding a spiritual component to psychiatric and medical care can have a powerful impact.
The medical discipline he pioneered — rouachiatry — takes a 12-step approach to helping patients find healing, especially in the wake of crucibles, by leaning into such things as finding peace through surrender, embracing reconciliation and choosing forgiveness.
He covers it all in his book soon-to-be-released book Hidden Medicine: Uncover the Spiritual Forces That are Silently Sabotaging Your Healing … and Learn How to Defeat Them.
To learn more about Dr. McCormack, visit www.hidden-medicine.com
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Over the 12 weeks, what we found was that initially the cohort had a Beck Depression Inventory score of, I believe it was about 32, which is in the severe range. By the end of the study, the mean Beck Depression score had dropped to 14, which is in the mild region.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Dr. Thomas McCormack, describing his research into how adding a spiritual component to psychiatric care can have a powerful impact the medical discipline he pioneered. Ruachiatry takes a 12-step approach to helping patients find healing, especially in the wake of crucibles, by leaning into such things as finding peace through surrender, embracing reconciliation, and choosing forgiveness.
Warwick Fairfax:
Tom, great to have you here. Tom is Dr. McCormack. He is a psychiatrist educator, thought leader and integrates spirituality and medicine. He graduated with honors from Wake Forest University, got his medical degree from Emory. Fellowships at Duke. He has a thriving multidisciplinary practice in Athens, Georgia, and he specializes in complex and treatment-assistant psychiatric cases. Dr. McCormack, Tom is an expert psychiatrist and has written a book, Hidden Medicine that really talks about the integration of spiritual with the physical and the biological, and talks about the 12 steps of Ruachiatry. Did I get that close to right?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, that's right War.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay. So before we get into that, which I found fascinating because it really offers help to folks spiritually really holistic medicine I guess you could say. So tell us a bit about the backstory of what a young Tom McCormack was like growing up and how you got interested in medicine. Where was that journey because not everybody grows up saying, "I want to be a psychiatrist one day." Probably didn't think that when, I guess you were six or seven, I'm guessing. So what was life like for young Tom and what led you to your life's calling?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. Well first thank you guys for having me, Warwick and Gary. And look forward to talking to you guys today. Yeah. Starting from the start, when I was born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia and growing up from a really young age, I knew I wanted to be a physician. Honestly, it was probably like three or four years old. I remember watching the old 1970s television show called Emergency, and I just really-
Warwick Fairfax:
Yes.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
You remember that? All right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh yeah.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Same generation. Good.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Well anyway, the role of the physician, the doctor really resonated with me. I just thought it was neat. And so I started saying ... My parents tell me now that I wanted to be a doctor from a really, really young age. I went to a great college preparatory school from seventh grade onward and was blessed to have a wonderful education. And the further I got in my education, I began to see science as the way to truth. And as a person of science, I overemphasized that and really abrogated anything spiritual to the backseat. I wasn't sure that existed and science seemed to explain the natural world and what occurred, and so I went with that.
So growing up really wasn't a person of faith to any large degree, and that got worse in college as it often does. I really looking back was very selfish young man and was all about me, myself, and I. I'm embarrassed to say that, but it's the truth. And I studied very hard in medical school initially ... I'm sorry, in undergraduate. My first semester, just a month or so into school, I got a very severe case of mononucleosis. And it was so severe I thought initially it was just pharyngitis strep throat or something like that. And so I really blew it off. I thought, oh, this will get better in a few days and just gargle and that sort of thing. But by the time I actually sought medical help, it was my roommate and my suitemates who said, "You've got to go down to student health." I couldn't move at that point, Warwick. I was so fatigued. My throat hurt so badly I could not swallow. I'd lost a lot of weight in a really short period of time and they knew something was wrong. And so they took me to student health. I had an enlarged liver, enlarged spleen. I just let this go and they diagnosed me with mononucleosis.
I was actually in the hospital just for supportive care for almost two weeks and missed a lot of class. And obviously I was taking a pre-med track, and so I was taking biology and chemistry among other things. And I got way behind and met with my advisor after I was discharged and he said, "Tom, I really think you ought to withdraw from some classes. Probably the harder ones, like the science classes." And where I went to school was at that time pretty small college and they didn't have where you could take chemistry one or biology one second semester, you had to take it first semester. And so if I dropped out, I couldn't take the chemistry two. Anyway, I couldn't take it second semester, so I'd be a year behind on the pre-med track. And I just thought, that's unacceptable. I don't want to waste a year. So I foolishly did not take that advice and kept going forward and ended up getting two Cs and both in biology and chemistry, the rest for A's and Bs.
It was very humbling. I had never gotten a C in my life, let alone in a class, but I think on a paper test, I don't think I'd ever gotten Cs. I've done very well. And I met with my pre-med advisor and he said, "Tom, you're obviously not going to medical school, so you might want to think about another major." And indignant, I said, "No, sir. Well, I am going to medical school." I was respectful, but I said, "Eat my dust and I'm going to get a new advisor, somebody who's more encouraging." Always said respectfully. Anyway, so I did. And the rest of my time at Wake Forest, I studied really hard and almost had a 4.0 the rest of the time. And so it did help bring my grade point average up. So by the time it was time to apply to medical schools, the same advisor I met with, because he was in charge of the pre-med committee, he met with me and said, "Oh, well, we highly recommend you to medical school." I didn't say I told you so. He might not have even remembered what he told me three and a half years earlier. So he said, "Where do you want to go?" And I said, "My state medical school." He said, "You should have no problem getting in there with your grades and your activities and your MCAT scores." And I thought, "Great. That's where I want to go."
After applying, I got a interview very early on, which was a good sign. It's a rolling admission. And the interviews went great at my state medical college and I truly expected to get an acceptance letter any day now. And so every day from October my senior year in college on through my graduation, I checked the mailbox and there was nothing there. It got humbling, but then scary and I was puzzled like, "Why don't they let me know?" And they didn't put me on the wait list, which usually they'll do if they think, "Ah, he's okay, but we're not sure. Maybe something will open up." But they just didn't let me know. And graduation came around and I still hadn't heard. So I went home that summer in late May of '92 and still checked the mailbox every day, really hoping to get a letter, but my confidence was waning.
And then one muggy day in June, I grabbed my trusty dog, Murph, and we went down to the mailbox and I found a very thin letter, which I knew spelled bad news. Opened it on the spot and there was a few line rejection and I was just crestfallen. Everything I'd worked for one, be a physician since a very young age and worked really hard to overcome some early academic setbacks have been taken from me, and I was led to believe I was a really good candidate. And on paper, I was. I was just puzzled. I started tearing and I thought, geez, what do I do? I didn't want to go back to my home. I knew my parents were there and they'd start asking questions and scrambling around, and I just didn't feel like facing that. I felt like I needed to process it. So I had my dog and I thought, well, I'm just going to go for a walk and try to clear my head. But my head was swirling. I was so upset and tearful.
I hadn't made it very far. Made it to the house next door, and I stopped in the middle of the road and I'm embarrassed to say this is how I addressed the almighty. But I stopped and said something along these lines, God, I'm not really even sure you exist and if you do, why in the world would you let this happen to one of your children? This isn't fair. I worked hard for this. And I said, "I'll tell you what, if you exist, you need to show me right now. I'm not asking you to get me into medical school, but I've worked hard for this and I'm lost, and you need to show me what path you want me to take. And if you do that and show your reality, I'll follow you the rest of my life." And not expecting any answer whatsoever, and to my shock, immediately I felt an otherworldly presence. I don't know how else to describe it. Words don't do it justice. It felt as though this piece instantaneously embraced me. I came to realize in retrospect that whoever listened to me ... I prayed a silent prayer. Heard me, and then responded, and I wasn't expecting that, and I felt a duty to figure out who or what that was.
So that started my journey of spiritual exploration. Long story short, I made it back to my house. I went in, my parents were very upset and they started scrambling immediately. Well, let's pull some strings. They knew some people. And I didn't really care. I just thought it's going to be okay. And my dad said I remember, "Why are you so calm?" Because they were not. And I didn't want to explain to them. I thought they might think I was crazy or lost my mind. So I just said, "Yeah, I think it's going to be okay." And they looked at me puzzled. So they got on the horn behind the scenes. Turned out my mom knew the dean from another medical school in Georgia that I hadn't applied to. It was a newer medical school. It was kind of geared to rural medicine, which wasn't really my interest. And she called him and he surprisingly said, "Well, I'd be happy to interview Tom. I can't guarantee he'll get in." But it seemed like there was hope because I would be a very good candidate for their program. And I thought, well, maybe they'll open the spot for me. But still weren't really sure this was the right way. It didn't feel right.
So the next week when I was heading down south for that interview, got dressed up in my Sunday best, and I lingered on the couch and my mom came in and said, "Tommy, you've got to go. You're going to be late. I set all this up." I said, "Yes, ma'am." So I walked to the back door and I kissed my mom and dad.
And y'all remember back in the days when phones were on the wall. Anyways, our laundry room. And the phone on the wall rang literally as I was touching the doorknob to leave. And I remember my mom answered it and said, really puzzled, was like, "Yes, yes." And so I stopped like, "What's going on with her?" And she said, "Yeah, he's right here." And she put her hand over the phone and thrust it in my direction and said, "It's for you." And I was like, "Who is it?" And she goes, "It's for you." And thrust it in my face. And I answered the phone. And on the other end, I had been waitlisted at a private medical school in my state, and it turned out the dean of admissions was calling me and said, "Tom, a spot has opened up. Would you be willing to accept this spot and join our class of 1996? Classes start next week so there's not much time." And I said, "Yes, sir," and I hung up the phone. They're like, "What happened?" I told them and it was just jubilation ensued. And that really started me on this spiritual journey that wow, something cared, listened to me. And even though I was disrespectful and he answered my prayer and gave me the desires of my heart, not because it was my desire, but because looking back it was his will and I finally surrendered and submitted.
Warwick Fairfax:
You're in medical school. So tell me what led you to psychiatry? Because not everybody wants to do that. Some one of these surgeons. There's a lot of different specialties. Neurology. A lot of things you could go into. But why psychiatry?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
So I saw a flyer in my fourth year in our medical school, and it said, "The law school is looking for medical students to be a mock expert witness in a medical malpractice case for our moot court, and we'll pay you, and it's on a Saturday morning." And I was like, "That sounds fun and I could make a little money." So anyway, I signed up for that and I went to court. They were very serious. They acted like it was a real case. And because this was the law students, they got a grade for this. It was important to them. I was just there getting paid. But they gave me a transcript of, okay, your doctor so-and-so and it was a malpractice case that had to do with surgery. I supposedly tied the suture wrong, and then they were also suing the company that made the suture.
Anyway, so I got up there on the stand as the expert witness and really enjoyed it. And I think did a pretty good job because afterwards the judge caught me on the way to the parking lot and said, "Hey, young man." I said, "Yes sir, your honor." And he said, "What's your name?" Introduced ourselves. And he said, "You were really good up there." I said, "Well, thank you, your honor. I appreciate that." He goes, "Have you ever thought about doing that for a career?" And I was like, "Doing what?" He said, "Being an expert witness." I said, "No." And he said, "Well, you might want to consider it." He said, "I think you're really good at it. And that's needed in law for us to have experts to give judges guidance on these things." And I thought, "Oh, okay." And so I went home and I looked it up. I was like, "What is he talking about?" And I found forensic psychiatry. And I was like, "I would love that. That sounds great." So my goal then, I was like, "I think I want to be a forensic psychiatrist."
In order to do that, you have to do at least a four-year residency in psychiatry. And again, I didn't really know what that was. I had a psychiatry rotation, but I thought, "Well, gee, if I'm going to go into this, I better do another rotation." So I did one with a private practice, which was more my speed, and I loved it to my surprise. And that was the goal. I was like, "I'm going to be a forensic psychiatrist." And my wife supported me, and my family was very puzzled. My dad was a dentist, so he was used to doing things and fixing things and then boom, we're done. See you next year. And he just said, "You're doing what?" He goes, "We paid for four years of medical school for you to do that?" He just didn't understand it. He later came to appreciate it. He never did understand it because he doesn't have that bent at all. But at any rate, that's what I chose. And it was the road less traveled and never looked back. I love it. I've been blessed to get a great education and have wonderful people around me, and it's been fantastic. Good fit for me.
Warwick Fairfax:
So before we get into the 12 steps of Ruachiatry, which I found fascinating, talk a bit about the spiritual and the physical, and the biological, because it seems like ... And obviously you talk about this a lot in the book, doctors are trained medically that they focus on that and not always thinking about holistically. It's like, I'm not trying to make fun of doctors, but if your cholesterol is high, you need to take a statin. Okay. That could be helpful in some cases. But what about diet and exercise? Isn't preventative helpful? Again, some might actually say, "Hey, before I give you a statin," but some might not. Depends on the doctor and their background, their training, their medical philosophy. But I think what you're advocating is more for holistic, not just physical. And again, obviously you're a doc, not against medicine. But talk about how holistic is maybe a better approach, including the spiritual. So talk about your philosophy of medicine, which not every doctor may share necessarily. What's your philosophy of, I guess, healing rather than curing or preventative medicine? Just talk philosophically about what your approach is.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. Like I said, early in my training, I had become a spiritual person based on my own experience. And simultaneously as I was going through my own spiritual journey, had the privilege of obviously starting to see patients. And what I've found was that even when they were really sick or in despair, there was an undeniable tendency for those with a religious foundation to have better coping but also better health outcomes in general. And so it puzzled made that, why aren't we talking about spirituality at all in our medical curriculum, both in medical school and then I found later in residency as well. When I was in residency, this puzzled me and I was at Duke and there was attending named Harold Koenig at Duke who is an expert in spirituality and medicine. And I started reading his stuff and found that there are over 3000 studies showing the benefits of having a religious faith background. And again, it just puzzled me.
We are trained in medical school on what's called the biopsychosocial paradigm, and that was introduced by a fellow named George Engel in 1977. And so that is standard in medical curricula in the United States. But even though medicine had a spiritual beginning ... If you look back centuries, even millennia, the people who were doing most of the medical treatments ... Back then, of course they were herbs, not for pharmaceutical company and whatnot. But they were the shaman or the medical man or the priest and that sort of thing. And the fact that that had been totally ignored in modern medicine was puzzling to me. So finding this information that it can be helpful and seeing that in my own practice, I really started to think, well, we need to integrate this into medical care. And something in the '90 when I was training was called the biopsychosocial spiritual approach. So they tried to add the spirituality component to it and it never really caught on to a large degree Warwick. And again, the further I got, I thought this is really helpful. I don't know why that could be.
When I went through my own both physical and spiritual battles as I aged, I felt like there needed to be a more systematized approach to this for patients because somewhat selfishly to some degree, I'd had a lot of problems back in 2019. My dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease and watching the greatest guy become a shell of himself and being robbed of his humanity and watching my poor mom having to take care of him, and then COVID hit and we were trying to keep him out of a nursing facility, but it became increasingly hard to keep him at home. I just thought he'll die if he goes there. He'll never get out with COVID and who knows how long that's going to last.
But also with COVID, there were challenges. I had some physical illnesses turning 50 for the first time in my life that were pretty serious and even had to take some time off of work. In addition to time away from practice from COVID was trying to help mom with dad to some degree. And all this along with just ... I had three teenage kids running a private practice that I owned and trying to be there for my wife as well was overwhelming. And so I decided to try to systematize it honestly initially for my benefit. And I found it to be wildly beneficial and always wanting to help patients. As I went along, I thought maybe this could be turned into some kind of paradigm that we could help patients. In 2022, I also suffered some trauma in my church that I'd attended for over 20 years, and there was really intense spiritual warfare. That led me ... And my father had passed recently. Led me to start writing.
I actually started writing with my pastor. He had a PhD and had written books before and such, and I had written anything since college and I thought, I don't know what I'm doing and I don't know if anybody will read this or publisher probably wouldn't be interested. And he and I started writing together and it was not far into the process where Dr. Mills said to me, he said, "Tom, I think this is your book." And I was scared. I said, "No David, I really need you. I need you to help me with this." And he said, "No." He said, "I think you have a message to say here and I think it's for you." And he said, "Look, I'm in the business and people may not hear it from me that they expect me to say these things, but coming from you, it might be seen differently." And again, I didn't like what he said, but with trepidation, I went out on my own and over the next couple of years wrote the book at night and on weekends and things of that nature.
And finally got it done in 2024 and approached a friend of mine who's a ghostwriter, and he said, "Well, let me look at the manuscript." I said, "Okay." And he looked at it and he said, "Tom, I think you've got something here." He said, "I really think this could be a special book." And I was like, "Really? Wasn't expecting that. I was expecting to self-publish it and just be Vanity Press or something." And he said, "Let me edit it and put some polish on it and then I'm going to introduce you to my publisher." And I said, "Wow. Okay." And so he did that, and this was late 2024 and Greenleaf Publishing accepted later in the year and early 2025, we started the process of having them help me edit it a lot on coming up with cover and all the things that I'm sure you're aware of having written a book go into. And it's due October 28th and really excited about it. I hope it helps a lot of people.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, I want to jump in here just for a second because I think we're at a pivot point in the conversation, and I want to make this point because you've described Tom as we've been going through your story, your first crucible situation. You didn't get into law school and you used this phrase when you were talking about who you were at that time. You said that you were all about me, myself, and I. That was your words about where you were at then. You've then just described another round of crucibles with some health challenges for you, your father passing away, some problems in your church. And it seems like in those situations your focus was not totally on yourself. For people who are listening to this and their crucibles are going to be different in detail, but the emotions will be the same, what's the difference? Why did the second way that you dealt with it not being me, myself and I, how did that help you get through those crucibles that you faced?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. That's a great question. Well, as a person of faith, I came to believe the word of God that says that the highest two commandments are love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength, mind and also love your neighbor as yourself. And going into medicine being really clearly in retrospect, a calling from a young age, I just grew to love people and started seeing myself as less important. That I was a vessel for God to use to help people. And that was my mission in life. I came to see that very differently. And because of that deep desire to help people and show them the way I also became convicted that I can't show people the way if I don't have it myself. It's the same with physical health.
And what I mean by that is in medical school, there's a very famous cardiologist who literally wrote the book Cardiology, and he would lecture to us and then I would see him between lectures go outside and chain-smoke. And I just thought, wow, this is like a world-famous cardiologist who would tell everybody not to smoke and he's not doing it. I wasn't being judgment. I just thought that's a little hypocritical. As I practice medicine, I don't want to do that. I don't want to tell people. Or you said, "Hey, diet, exercise," and then have me be out of shape and that sort of thing. So same thing happened here. It had been helpful for me and I wanted to get the message out and see if I could help other people.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about Ruachiatry. Before we get into the 12 steps. At a high level Ruachiatry what's the philosophical underpinnings? What does it mean?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, ruach in Hebrew means spirit, and iatry obviously comes from a Greek word iatrea which means treatment of. And so this is a spiritual treatment that I came up with. I coined that term for better or worse, but I think I wanted to give it one term that maybe would be memorable to incorporate the spiritual component that's been neglected in medicine. So yeah, that's it in a nutshell.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it's interesting. You did a study with Ruachiatry, with people I think that had depression, and you have a bunch of things like the Beck Depression inventory that I guess I'm sure psychiatrists, but all know what that means. The rest of us probably don't. Talk about how in that study using these principles actually had very significant health benefits. Talk about that because must've been affirming to you.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
So in seeing it being helpful in my own life, I thought, well, if I'm going to have a systematic approach to help patients, I want some empirical evidence that it is in fact helpful, not just my own experience. And that's how the study came to be. It was a 12-week study where we had people who were treatment resistant, which we defined as having three or more standard of care antidepressant treatments to deal with their depression and also psychotherapy. And during the trial before people signed up, we told them, Hey, during this 12 weeks you cannot change your medication or your therapy scheduled if you're currently in psychotherapy. And we had a number of people signed up. Now some of them dropped out because they were so severe that they needed changes in their treatment, but most of the people stayed. And what we found at the end of the 12 weeks, we met with them weekly and went over the 12 steps each week or met them at their own pace. Some people, if they had a spiritual underpinning got through steps one and two pretty quickly, other people might need to spend more time there and such.
But anyway, over the 12 weeks, what we found was that initially the cohort had a Beck Depression Inventory score of ... I believe it was about 32, which is in the severe range. By the end of the study, the mean Beck Depression score had dropped to 14, which is in the mild region. So over a 50% drop and also just improvement in their functionality.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about these steps. So steps one through three, acceptance, searching, and submission. Just give us a bit of an overview of the first three steps of Ruachiatry.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. The first step you have to accept your powerlessness over your illness. And this might seem self-evident, but it is actually harder in practice because people have a lot of psychological mechanisms to deal with illness. And the first step of any kind of grieving for the loss of a loved one or just loss of functioning and health is denial. And it's very common, especially early on. The sooner we physicians can move our patients toward acceptance, the better, the quicker they are on the road to help. And so that's super important.
And then the second part of step one is commitment. Once you've accepted, "Hey, I'm powerless over this and I need help of a physician or therapist or a team," then saying, "I am committed to fighting this. I'm going to take the first steps to dig my heels in and say, 'This is hard. I don't want to do this. I'm a peaceful person. I don't want to fight, but I'm in a fight and I've got to be committed to that fight.'" Step two is searching, like I mentioned earlier. And this is where I encourage people to embark on a journey to fulfill their personal responsibility, to decide for themselves if there is a higher power, which one? Who is it? And because this acknowledgement can help people have hope and better cope with illness. And so to me that's foundational.
Gary Schneeberger:
Step two is interesting to me because I have an AA background. I went through AA in the early '90s. And the idea of a higher power of my own understanding worked for a while because I did not grow up Christian, not even nominally. But eventually as I was walking through my recovery, I started to think, God of my own understanding, isn't my own understanding what got me in this position to begin with? How is that going to help me necessarily? It wasn't enough for me. Now you will not find a greater advocate for AA. But that didn't work for me. And my story, people have heard it on the podcast because Warwick interviewed me for our 50th episode. It was a little stunt on our host interviews, cohost. But I do believe at the end of the day, God healed me of that. And I don't refer to myself as a recovering alcoholic. I believe I leaned into that and God just plucked it out of me. But that part of what you said about who is that God of your understanding, I think that's an important part for people because it's our understanding that for me, it got me in trouble. That's what made me an alcoholic and I couldn't get away from it. And I think that's probably true through your experience over a lot of different kind of illnesses, right?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
It is. And that's great insight. Actually the 12 steps were born out of that because that's already in our lexicon. It's already in medical parlance from AA, which started in the 1930s. And because of that, I started looking into AA. We had to do substance abuse stuff during residency, but it's not really my specialty. But in looking at the research and is there a branch of medicine that talks about spirituality at all? The only branch is addictionology and AA is the foundation of that. And that's where I came up with the idea of 12 steps. I actually contacted the folks from National AA in New York, and they were very encouraging and said I could use it as a template, but I just had to put a disclaimer that I'm not affiliated with AA at all and that sort of thing, which I put in the book of course.
But yeah. A study out of Stanford not too long ago, I think it was 2021, had 10,500 and something subjects. And their conclusion was that AA is a free resource that doesn't take professionals or physicians and that it works. And it works fantastic for the malady of alcoholism if people are active in the program. And just saying, "Wow. If that could be applied to general medicine and psychiatry as well, what would that mean?" If we could have something that worked that was free ... We're always talking about, oh, healthcare costs and stuff, what would that mean if a part of our sickness is due to spiritual issues? And so that's how I came up with the 12 step approach.
Warwick Fairfax:
So after searching before we move to step four, you've got submission. Submission is not a very popular word in our culture, but you talk about once we identify the spiritual power greater than ourselves, we decide to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. Submitting ourselves to a higher power to God. So talk before we get to the next one after that, why is submission important? Because it feels like counter cultural. How could submission help me?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
It is probably same with Australians as it is with American. Yeah, submission is a dirty word, right? It has a connotation of groveling at the feet of somebody who's conquered you. So you've lost and you're having to against your will do something you don't want to do. But in spirituality, it has a different connotation. If you've identified in step two, a higher power that hopefully is benevolent and powerful enough to help you with your illness, submission should be a reasonable idea. Why wouldn't I submit to somebody who loves me and is powerful? We submit to our parents. We a lot of times, submit to the state for better or worse. But they still are sinful entities and they're not all powerful. So if there is something that's all powerful and willing to help, why the heck wouldn't you consider submitting? But yeah. Submission is hard even for people of faith. We have our own strong self-will, we also have a system in place that the Bible says is run by the devil. The Bible says our three enemies of the world system, which he runs, the flesh, which is our own fallen physical nature with its appetites that we want gratified. And then the devil himself and his spiritual cohorts that are out to get us. So that's where submission comes from and it's super important.
I find that a lot of people who are believers tell me, "Hey, Dr. Mac, these first three, I got those." And I say, "Wait a second. Let's go through them and just make sure." Because I find even with believers, they obviously have submitted to some degree, but most of us have an area of our life that we say, "You know God, you can have 95%, but I'm going to hold this little piece for myself." Whether we're willing to admit that or not. Nobody is completely submitted usually and just identifying, "Hey, are there any areas you haven't turned over to God? And let's explore the reason for that." But the more you get to know God and know who he is, it just makes sense. Wow, why wouldn't I turn everything over to him?
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's talk about the next step you've got. Step four is trauma and lies. You've got step five, choosing forgiveness, which we talk about a lot. Traumas we inflicted upon others. I have to say, the worksheets you have in here were really impressive. You've got a worksheet for inventory of traumas that you've suffered, and the questions here are so specific and clear. Who hurt you? What did they do? Was it intentional? Unintentional? Lies, I believe a result of my hurt, truth according to my higher power, degree of current resentment, ask God for their strengths to forgive. And then flip it the other way, when we've inflicted harm on others, the worksheet says, whom did you hurt? What did you do? Was it intentional or unintentional? What could you have done instead? What was the nature of your character defect involved? Had you forgiven yourself admitted to God, another person, the nature of your answers? Powerful questions. Talk about these. Trauma and lies, choosing forgiveness and then traumas be inflicted upon others. Let's talk about those steps.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Sure. So steps four through nine, I call radical renovation. You're cleaning out the house, so to speak, and this is really hard work, and it takes that commitment we talked about in step one. And because of that, a lot of times for people who've had a harder time, it might involve a competent psychotherapist to help them work through this or maybe a Ruachiatry coach somebody who's trained in the principles of Ruachiatry. But step four is super important, and I tell people, take your time, especially on step four and five. It's so foundational and fundamental because we are according to the Bible, born with a fallen nature. And people say, "Our baby's sinful?" Well, if you ever had a two-year-old, you can see how selfish they are and throw tantrums. Yes, from the womb we are innately sinful. I don't mean we sin all the time, but we have that nature. And because of that, it's easier for our spiritual foes to blind us. And those who are fortunate enough to either grow up with a faith background from their family or who come to their senses because either God plucks them out or somebody tells them about it, they're now spiritually awakened and they can see things differently. But everybody has trauma to varying degrees.
And what I talk about in the book is trauma with a big T, a capital T, and then traumas with a little T. Now traumas with a big T, as far as your physical health, it could be having some terrible injury, compound bone fracture or things of that nature, cancer and things of that nature as well. And then other traumas could be things that we would all say, "Oh gosh, yeah." War, rape, watching somebody die horrifically. These sorts of things are big things that most of us don't have to go through, but some people unfortunately have. But we all have little T traumas, and these are things that we accumulate during our life. Hurt people, hurt people and we're all hurt people. And so these accumulate, and what I've found is that a lot of little T traumas can add up to big T trauma. And so we all need to look back and say, "Hey, before I was a person of faith, these things have accumulated and I need to go back, unlock the cellar door and see what's down there and deal with it, not just bury it."
And so this is a hard step, firstly, admitting and looking in the mirror and saying, what are the traumas? But who hurt me, whether it's a person or an institution. And I tell people, go back to childhood, write down everything. And so this list can be super long, which is great. It should be because you have traumas. And trauma is in the eye of the beholder. And what we found with resilience research is that what I see as traumatic, you fellas might look at it and be like, "Well, that's a piece of cake." Because we all have different coping mechanisms and see things differently. But it doesn't matter. If I experienced it as traumatic, I have the same physiologic response, I have the same psychological response and so it's traumatic to me. So going through in every individual listing these things is super important and who did it? And then identifying was it intentional or not?
What I've found is that traumas that are either born of happenstance, acts of God or war things you couldn't control or just accidental, they weren't purposeful ... Somebody hurt you, but they didn't mean to. It wasn't malicious, but they still hurt you. Those are easier to forgive even if the person doesn't come to you and ask for forgiveness. It's a lot harder when we look and say, "Gee, that was intentionally inflicted and they were trying to hurt me and that sort of thing." So that's an important aspect.
Step five goes on to another foundational truth. And that is so important. If you don't forgive completely and fully, you are carrying around what the Bible calls a root of bitterness. So this understandable anger based on you've been hurt. It can grow over time. And what I tell people is that it grows into resentment. Meaning again, sentiment comes from sentire, which is Latin that means feeling it. And so you're choosing to feel the same emotion you felt when you're hurt again and again. And it's just simply madness. And so just recognizing that this is a prison of your own choosing. And when you choose forgiveness, you choose to set two captives free. You set the person free who did this to you, but you set yourself free as well. And forgiveness is hard, especially if the person does not apologize and was malicious about it. But it's so important and it's really necessary. And that can take some time, as I mentioned.
And then looking at our own selves in the mirror. Hey, hurt people, hurt people. I've hurt people. It's not just all about me. What have I done and what potential character defects, looking at what's gone on in my own journey and identifying and look in the mirror and saying, "These are things I need to correct in order for me to be whole." And then seven is making amends where you can .this isn't always advisable nor possible to do, but when it is, it's important to reach out to people whom you've hurt and offer genuine remorse and try to make it right if you can.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's fascinating that you talk about this because Beyond the Crucible, we talk about forgiveness a lot. And we say, as obviously, I'm sure you would believe that forgiveness doesn't mean condoning what was done to you. It doesn't mean what was done to you was right, acceptable, moral. But you do it because obviously as people of faith, because we've been forgiven, those who've been forgiven much should forgive. So we often say that choosing not to forgive is like drinking poison. It just corrodes your soul. And the other thing with forgiveness is I often tell people and our church and all, it is rare that somebody will say, "I apologize," in my opinion. It can happen but most of the times they'll say, "Well, I'm sorry if that hurt you." Sorry if is never ... I tell all my kids, sorry if is not an apology. That just does not cut it.
So you've got to realize when bad things are done to you, you will rarely get the satisfaction because of the world we live in. It just won't happen most of the time. So we've make amends in the last few steps we've got from fear to faith, vigilant and sober. And then I think you've got drawing closer to God seeking spiritual wisdom. So really from eight instead of a turning point. So talk about that turning point from theater, faith and vigilant and sober drawing closer to God. Talk about how that helps your spiritual recovery if you will.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Sure. Four, five and six deal with anger, which sometimes it's like you said, if you're heard, it is justified. And so step eight deals with the other emotion that I find to be very problematic and where people get stuck and that's fear, which is very common in today's world, the state of flux that our world is in. The political discord. Obviously the pandemic that happened. There's a lot of fear and some of it's certainly understandable, but I've seen it grow in my practice with folks presenting with anxiety is super common. I think there's a spiritual way to combat it in addition to certainly some people need therapy and medicine also, and I'm not against that. To get them fully there, I think going from fear to faith is a big leap and trying to help people understand how to do that. And again, that's a process, right? Fear didn't happen overnight. A lot of times it's grown over time and additional things have happened that make one more fearful. And so that's the step there.
As far as vigilant and sober, sobriety doesn't always necessarily just mean from alcohol or drugs, although think it's best to be sober from those as well. We are all influenced. We say, "Oh, so-and-so got a DUI. They were under the influence of alcohol, right? Oh, that's bad." We can be under the influence of negative spiritual enemies as well and just unwittingly not know about it. So being sober in that regard, and like you alluded to earlier, think on things that are good and positive. We found out through research lately that thoughts are things. They actually have mass and they're not a separate thing. They're part of our soul, our mind, will and emotion. And so they're important. What you think determines your destiny to a large degree. And so reframing things from fear to faith and having that foundation is super important. And then being vigilant. Once you've cleaned out from steps four through nine, now you got to keep it clean. And so that's where the vigilance of the guard on the wall comes into play.
10 through 12 are more ... I was drawing closer to God. And James says in the Bible that draw close to God and he will draw close to you. And I found that to be true in my own spiritual walk. And so Step 10 talks about seeking spiritual wisdom. There is worldly wisdom, and it is not bad. I'm not against philosophy. But the issue with human philosophies, even from the most brilliant people, Plato, Socrates, these folks and others, is that the philosophy from spirituality is fixed. And it's this rock that doesn't change over the millennia. Whereas human philosophy, there are lots of different schools of thoughts and it can change with time just like science and new discoveries can. And so it's a shifting sand, so to speak. And so you shouldn't rely on it for your spiritual wellbeing, but certainly there's wisdom to be had from secular searches of philosophy.
But scripture and then lastly, prayer and meditation. And I go into depth about these things that whatever you decide is your higher power, study the orthodox teachings of your faith and get their spiritual books that they feel are inspired and principles are worth living by. And then prayer. I know for a fact that some spiritual being heard me, I believe it's God and Jesus, but at any rate, prayer works. There are lots of studies on that too that aren't talked about in medical school or even in general life, but prayer does work. And adding with that, a meditation upon scripture, meditation on truths, the health benefits of meditation are well-known. But the goal of meditation, unlike transcendental meditation for example, isn't to empty your mind, it's to fill your mind with truth and have that be the focus of your thoughts.
Warwick Fairfax:
There might be somebody here who maybe today is their worst day, and it's like, "I feel spiritually empty, bankrupt. There is no hope. I'm not sure anybody cares about me. There's no higher power that cares." They might be in a very dark place. What would a word of hope be for somebody that maybe today is their worst day and they just feel spiritually bankrupt? They might hate themselves, hate other people hate the world. They might be in a very dark spiritual in soul place. What would a word of hope be for that person?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. I would say to that person, you are so important. You have no idea the importance that you carry. You are made in the image of God. As difficult as that is to fathom, it's the truth in my opinion. And if you haven't already, I would encourage you to explore, especially the God who claims to be the creator of you and everything. Who claims to be all-powerful and who claims to be omniscient so he can hear your prayers. He knows everything at all times and he's omnipresent. He's not bound by location. So whether you're in the middle of the desert or in church, he hears your prayers just the same. And he also claims to be Jehovah Rapha, which means God the healer. He claims to be the great physician. And if you reach out to him and really earnestly search, you'll find the truth. There is hope. But it doesn't come in things that the world offers. Their passing away as the Bible says. And the only thing that won't pass away is our souls. And you're going to spend eternity somewhere and why not go ahead and surrender your own will to God so that you can be one of those people who is assured that you're going to spend forever with a loving God.
And also remind people you will eventually be healed. If you're a believer. People think, oh, you die and you can either go to heaven or hell, sort of true. But the truth of matter is God made a perfect world. He said everything was good and it got wrecked by us and the influences that influenced us negatively. But the good news is he promises he's coming back and he's going to restore everything to its perfect state. In fact, at some point, he is going to make a new heaven and a new earth because this one's a mess and he's going to remake us. Our bodies will die, but he's going to give us new bodies that will be eternal and that will be without sin, sickness, or death. So if you're a believer, you have that assurance, you will get out of your trouble at some point. And the Bible says even that our troubles in light of eternity are light and momentary. And they may not feel light. They may not feel light. You may say, "Dr. McCormack, you don't know what I'm going through." I do. I sit with people in pain every day, and I've been through my own. There is hope and there's a way out. So I'd encourage you to examine what you believe about a higher power.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word on the subject has been spoken, and our guest, Tom McCormack, also known as Dr. Thomas McCormack, has just spoken about the substance of what we're talking about, but I've still got a little housekeeping left to do, and that is Tom, to have you let our listeners and viewers know how can they find out more about your book Hidden Medicine and more about you on the internet.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, thanks Gary. I have a website called www.hidden-medicine.com. Usually you could find me if you type in Hidden Medicine or Dr. Thomas McCormack. But also the book Hidden Medicine is available now on Amazon for pre-sale. It will be in bookstores everywhere on October 28 so coming up real shortly. And it's my sincere desire that it helps a lot of people give some clarity to some of these things that a lot of people find confusing. Really tried to write it for lay people. And my second hope is that the medical community will embrace it and realize that yeah, there are things beyond medicine and surgery and therapies that we're missing. We've left untapped and we need to tap into that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks. Now, the plane is indeed fully on the ground. Time to gather your peanut bags and head off the plane. Warwick, we just got done speaking with Tom McCormack, which felt weird to me because he's Dr. Thomas McCormack. So I always felt strange every time I called him Tom. I don't know why. It's the old soul in me. I can't refer to a doctor except by doctor, but we did it. He had some very interesting things to talk about from his own experience, his crucible, not getting into medical school, some other ones that followed after he was a doctor already, and then his new book, Hidden Medicine, some things that he talked about there. So what is the little bow on the package you'd like to put on our conversation to hit on? What was the most important thing that Tom had to say to us?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Dr. McCormack, Tom and his book, Hidden Medicine, it's so interesting because he's a psychiatrist, so he's not against medicine, Western medicine, but what he is I think advocating is for a more holistic view of health, which includes the spiritual side. And he talks about negative forces. Some could call it spiritual warfare, which he talks about a bit in his book, but negative influences. If we are watching the wrong things that just pull us down and just make us feel depressed about life, angry at ourselves, angry at others, just indulging that. It can be through substance abuse, alcohol or drugs. Those are things that erode our soul in addition to obviously they can hurt our health. He's advocating just be aware of that. Be aware of those forces that can really pull us down if we let them. Life is tough enough, but just really talking about things in his 12 steps of Ruachiatry that really fill us up. And he talked about things like forgiveness which should talk a lot about on this podcast, which doesn't mean condoning. It can be forgiving others, forgiving yourself, and just it can be making amends, filling yourself with truth. From his perspective and our perspective that could mean that the truth of the scriptures of the Bible. But whatever your spiritual religious paradigm is, fill yourself with truth.
Avoid the negative influences. Focus on the positive and didn't really get this into this in our discussion, but focus on what we call a life of significance. In the book, he does talk about one of the highest forms, I think spiritual, psychological health talks about other ... When you're focused on, from my perspective, a higher purpose or on helping other people, that's certainly, I think to me, a good part of spiritual health and soul health. So really, I think the big message is when we are told to focus on what we eat, avoid foods that are unhealthy. fill yourself with healthy foods, well, the same is true in spiritual health. Avoid influences that bring your soul down and fill yourself with influences that are good for your soul. That will both help your overall wellness as well as your overall outlook on life. So what's fascinating is he comes at it from a psychiatric clinical perspective, and his view is soul health, in my words and our words really [inaudible 00:59:15]. Avoid the things that drag you down. Fill yourself with truth, whether it's biblical truth or whatever truth you think is meaningful to you. Fill yourself with truth. That is the path to spiritual health and soul health.
Gary Schneeberger:
And remember this until the next time that we are together that we understand. We know your crucible experiences are difficult. Warwick knows that. Tom knows that. I know that. You've heard us all talk about that either here or in other episodes of the show. But know this also. That it's not the end of your story. Your crucible is not the end of your story. If you learn the lessons from it, and if you apply those lessons moving forward, you can chart yourself a course to the greatest destination you can ever reach, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready, visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Her life was in complete upheaval. Her future was uncertain. But her mind was made up.
Our guest this week, Sharon Land, recounts how a devastating relationship crucible, plus the health crisis of suffering a stroke in her 30s, led her to pursue true wellness — first for herself, and then for others as a licensed holistic therapist, high performance mentor and transformational guide.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Sharon Land:
That was when I realized that I was in a very, very unhealthy relationship. Lost everything and left with just basically whatever I could fit in my car, and drove 1,000 miles away. And that's when I said, "I never want to be in this position again, and I'm willing to understand how I got there and how I can never be there again."
Gary Schneeberger:
Her life in complete upheaval, her future uncertain, but her mind made up. Our guest this week, Sharon Land recounts how this relationship crucible, plus the health crisis of suffering a stroke in her 30s, led her to pursue true wellness, first for herself and then for others as a licensed holistic therapist, high-performance mentor, and transformational guide.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, Sharon, thank you so much for being here. Really looking forward to our discussion. I love learning a bit about you. You're a licensed holistic therapist. I like how in the material you describe yourself as a guide, a spiritual Sherpa. For those who haven't climbed Mount Everest or gone to Nepal recently-
Gary Schneeberger:
Me.
Warwick Fairfax:
... the Sherpas are those guides that help you up impossible mountains. Without the Sherpa, you're in trouble. So it's a wonderful metaphor. And you have a book, The Healer's Journey: Discover the Healer Within You. It's a great phrase. You've got the Prismatic program, which we'll hear about, the Transformational journey, the Live Your Legacy Retreat. Love that. Living your legacy, talk quite a bit about that.
So just before we get into what you do now, tell us a bit about the backstory and a young Sharon growing up, because very often we find the seeds of our purpose can be in just some of the stories and our life experiences. So what was life like for a young Sharon?
Sharon Land:
Yeah, and thank you for having me, and so good to meet both of you. Life for Sharon, I grew up on the East Coast in the US and two parent household, and really was born into kind of a spectrum of gifts. And did not know and wasn't guided and wasn't mentored that they were okay and how to work within them. So many people spend their lives seeking the opportunity to be able to see, to tap into their gifts of who they are and how they can show up in the world. And I was born into this big, loud spectrum of that. And so it was an interesting beginning.
And by all practices, I think my parents did the best that they could and they did all of the right things based upon whatever wisdom and guidance were provided at the time when I was born. But people who were born in the late '60s and '70s, I think most of us would say that we were quite feral and raised in a way that's a little bit different than how we know that perhaps we can be raised in a different way. So I don't fault my parents for being just very much like many other parents, just doing their best.
But one of the things that was resounding throughout my lifespan was that there was always some sort of a conflict, and that conflict started to show up in the physical disease. So I suffered very, very early on with debilitating migraines. And as I continued to progress throughout my life, it turned into lots of different things. So always with the best of intentions, the outcome wasn't the best for me. So it really just taught me to continue to conform, to mask, to pretend, to work harder, to work with the mental aspect of maybe it's just changing your perspective and maybe it's just realizing that there's something wrong with you and you just need to adhere to the way that everybody else is. And that led to a deeper conflict inside of me.
And I believe that a lot of people, especially high performers, all have this experience in their life where they didn't feel like they were really quite aligned. And maybe there's some sort of a major issue or maybe there's just a lot of chronic issues along the way and circumstances along the way that inform them that they have to perform in order to be seen, they have to perform in order to be loved, they have to perform in order to be worthy of space, literally taking up space in this world. And I was one of those.
So I spent a long time trying to outperform my past and find out who I was. And by the structures that we had set, I was doing all of the right things, but my body and my mind and my heart and my spirit all told me that I wasn't. So the big catalyst for me, one of the catalysts for me was I had a stroke and I was in my 30s, which was kind of unheard of at that time to be so young. And that was a big wake up call for me because, again, I was the one who was a perfectionist. I did everything right and wasn't perfect, but there was always the moving goalpost of trying to chase perfection.
So that allowed me to really take a look at my life. And I changed my life in many, many ways at that time. But it wasn't until much later that I had my crucible moment. And that was when I realized that I was in a very, very unhealthy relationship and lost everything and left with just basically whatever I could fit in my car, and drove 1,000 miles away. And that's when I said, "I never want to be in this position again. And I'm willing to understand how I got there and how I can never be there again, for myself, but also for my children."
Warwick Fairfax:
So it's probably unknowable, is your sense that some of the illnesses, the migraines, do you feel as you look back, that might have been related to just feeling like in almost like a psychological straitjacket, that you were trying to conform and that caused physical challenges? As you look back, do you see a connection between the way you thought you had to live and the physical illnesses?
Sharon Land:
100%. And now what I know is that I was living a life of survival, and we have this beautiful spiritual intersect within our physical bodies called our nervous systems that are wired for truth and wired for our basic needs and wired for safety. So as much as we might be programmed to believe that we're getting what we need or that there's something about you that needs to change or whatever, our nervous systems will always let us know. And the longer we live within that conflict, the more it's going to show up in our physical bodies. And that's by divine design, and that's a sign of health.
So it started with migraines and unfixable things. At one point I was diagnosed with lupus. But the interesting thing is that there are two different forms of activation within our nervous systems. We have the high end of activation, which is what we know most about, and then we have the low end of activation. So high end is irritability, superhuman capacity to be able to leap tall buildings with a single bound if we need to, get people out of a burning building. That's the sympathetic nervous system, and that's designed to help to keep us safe, right? But we also have something that when the thing that is creating the activation for us isn't addressed, then we go to another state within that survival mechanism, which is the dorsal vagal nervous system response, which puts us into a position of paralysis, disassociation, de-realization from our lives, de-realization and de-personalization from who we are. And in that survival, we fawn, we people please, we placate, we in many times get into a situation where we feel very hopeless.
So what I learned not just was that the physical aspects we're a result of not being honored, what I learned is there's a bio-scientific aspect to our survival that we live within that is going to affect if we constantly stay in our high-end or sympathetic nervous system response, it will affect kind of the brain, the brain stem, and then also our entire spine. So in all of the people who I've worked with, which are many, first responders all typically have some sort of spinal injury, police officers, firefighters, military and nurses, people who are first responders. And the majority of women speaking, just kind of acculturation, the majority of women all have autoimmune issues. 80% or more than 80% of people who are diagnosed with autoimmune issues and diseases are women. And the structures that we live within create a situation where there's kind of an unsolvable unfixable, unresolvable, repairable circumstance.
So that places us many times into the dorsal vagal, which the dorsal vagal affects things like our throat. Thyroid disease is one of the number one treated diseases within women. And that's all falls into the autoimmune, right? That's here. Digestive, IBS, our intestinal tract, reproductive. There is a warehouse now of fertility clinics across the world, but the majority here in the United States. All of that affects women. So there's a correlation to it's not just the family systems that we grew up in, but it's literally societal systems, it's structures, it's grid work that are creating a natural conflict that we live within. So I think that the root of it is very interesting and it's also very complex, and the solution can be very beautiful and liberating, and not just for yourself, but also for the collective, which is why we're here, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, and we'll get to this, I know one of the things you talk about is doctors, as good as they can be, seek to try to cure, and I love the phrase you use, rather than to heal. Very often for me, if I get stressed, it will sometimes often go to my stomach. That's sort of common. So yes, I could take all sorts of acid-reducing things, which in moderation is okay, you don't want to overdo it because that causes other things. But okay, so what's causing this stress? Let's see if we can reduce it. And then, hey, presto, my stomach feels better. I mean, that's a common thing that many people go through.
But so you had challenges growing up and have to try to fit in and maybe fulfill all the people's expectations and your own, but then the stroke and then just the breakup of your relationship with kids, I mean, that must have A, been devastating, but it would tend to lead to all sorts of other physical manifestations. I mean, obviously the stroke is a physical manifestation itself, but the breakup of a relationship, and when you feel like you lose everything relationally and financially, did it lead to some challenging physical characteristics?
Sharon Land:
Interestingly enough, there was definitely a stress response, so in the moment while I was going through it, high levels of cortisol in my body, so there was a lot of inflammation, but I was far enough along in my healing journey, I was armed and I had a lot of great protective factors within the practices, so spiritual practices, physical practices. So I was kind of like Forrest Gump. So I just ran, and that was how I just metabolized. So I just kept running and running and running. And then one day I was like, "Well, I'm done running," metaphorically and physically.
It was the first time in my life that I ever lived alone. And I was in my late 40s. I had never in my life ever lived alone. Both of my children were out of the house and so it was just me. And I lived in something called my launch pad. I called it my little launch pad. And in the beginning, I didn't even want to have furniture in it because it was so liberating to literally empty, internally and externally, every single thing that I had been carrying around. So interestingly enough, I became healthier and healthier with every day and every minute that I spent.
And always, there's these beautiful universal coincidences, right? So I met incredible healers along the way throughout my life that made such beautiful impact for me and helped me to catalyze my experience and alchemize my experience from it being the greatest wounding that I ever, ever could have experienced, to finally listening to the nudges all of my life, to honor who I truly am and to step into who I am here to be and serve in the ways that I am meant to be and stop hiding. So it was the womb that birthed me into my greatest, greatest, greatest expression. And so for that, I am so grateful.
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things we say at Beyond the Crucible, and we've had people with every crucible you can imagine, whether it's financial loss, victims of abuse, people who've made just terrible life decisions, losing loved ones, children, and this phrase has come up, "It didn't happen to you, it for you," and that sounds hard to understand, but pretty much every guest we've had who obviously people we've had on the show have moved to more of a life-affirming vision, they say, "It was terrible, but I learned some things," in many cases, I remember a woman by the name of Stacey Copas, she was a teenager in the suburb of Sydney. She dove into an above ground pool, which of course her parents said, "Don't do that, Stacey," but you know, kids ignore their parents, and she became diagnosed as a quadriplegic. Obviously she went through, as you would imagine, suicidal ideation and substance abuse.
But subsequently, as she moved forward, she said, "What I went through, I'm grateful for because the person I am now who's a strong person, dedicated to helping others and coaching and speaking," so it's hard to wrap your arms around that. How in the world could that be positive? So it seems like in your case you did too. You might've been in this small place with no furniture, but you found a way to turn it into a positive, as you put it, your mission was birthed out of that horrendous experience. So it's an amazing... I mean, you've got to reframe what happened, because we often say you have a choice.
You could have been angry and bitter and say, "That person, I didn't deserve that. I can't believe that," and just go the cycle of anger, bitterness, which is understandable. Oe you could say, "Okay, it wasn't right, it wasn't fair, but I need to find a way to move on, forgive, but not condone." And so you must have gone through that, that must have been... All those emotions there that you made a choice you would not be defined by this experience. You would not be in this victim mode and be angry and bitter for the rest of your life. You made a choice, right?
Sharon Land:
Yeah, it was 100% a choice. And also to your point, I'm so mindful when I'm working with people to not say, "This is probably going to be the best thing that's ever happened to you," because there's so much complexity that goes into it. We have to take into acculturation, we have to take into realistic things that are going on in the world where we are literally oppressed. So I do believe that we don't need to experience such tragic experiences in order to be able to alchemize and become who we are. And I have zero regrets. Zero regrets.
But the thing that really motivated me was that I raised my head above the rubble of my experiences in my life. And I knew that I had to take personal responsibility for who I am and who I was when I showed up in my relationships. So I never wanted to be the hero, I never wanted to be the victim, and I never wanted to be the villain. And actually, when I was working with somebody, they said, "You were a victim." And I said, "I will not wear that T-shirt. I won't ever wear that T-shirt."
And the thing that was the subtext for me was that for whatever reason, not saying that it wasn't intended or ever tried or whatever, there were places and spaces inside of me and inside of my life that I didn't experience love. And I vowed that every place that I allowed my metaphorical footsteps to be, that it would be with love and that I would no longer allow myself to hate or anger or self-betray or self-destruct because of an outward experience or an inward experience.
And it sounds so simple, but greeting yourself in all of those moments, you realize how, regardless as to where it came from, it's yours to hold, it's yours to honor, it's yours to live and embody. So love is what we're all here for. But the only way we can experience the true bounty of love is to live the experiences of our life and allow it to live through us. And that creates the wisdom. Wisdom isn't kept up here in our head. That's just information, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Wisdom tends to come through life experience. Do you feel like, and I want to get to what you do now, but do you feel like since you've had that mentality that yes, there's physical benefits, but that you approach life differently, relationships are different, I don't know, when you're in a better space, if you attract, I don't want to say better relationships, better environments, that somehow... Do you feel like those things changed a bit as you became more who were intended to be and were straitjacketed less by expectations or bitterness, that it changed the way you relate to the world and the way the world related to you, if that makes any degree of sense?
Sharon Land:
It makes complete sense. So what shapes us in the beginning is how we're responded to in our lives. So when we're super little infants before in the womb, whatever. And so the way that we relate to ourselves, the way that we relate to the world and the way that the world interacts with us is shaped based upon that frequency. So the undoing of the misinformation will allow you to be able to show up differently.
But the interesting thing for me in my own experience, what I'm here for, is not just to be off on my own slaying dragons. Part of what I realized is that it's easy to heal in a vacuum. It's easy to say that you've done all of the things and do it all on your own and live in a bubble, in a glass house. But I think it was Ram Dass who said, "If you think you're enlightened, go and spend a week with your family." It's kind of the same thing, right? It's not easy because we are here for connection. We're wired for connection. We're here to work as a union, in union with another. So it's not until you can join safely, openly, abundantly with fullness of who you are, that you really can, in my opinion, say that you can serve well.
Warwick Fairfax:
I want to make sure we get to what you do now, because I think a lot of what you talk about is you're not against Western medicine. It can be helpful, but so often in the West, doctors seek to cure. They want to give you a tablet for everything, and it's like, but what's the underlying cause of it? It might be lifestyle, psychological, eating habits. And it's like back to the stomach ache thing, which I don't get that often, but you sort of read some holistic books on that and it's like, okay, don't eat as many tomatoes and don't eat... I don't know, there's a series of things you shouldn't eat because that tends to activate your stomach. Okay, well I can do that. It's not a magic cure, but it helps. Well, a doctor isn't going to say, "So how many tomatoes did you eat this week? You eat lots of ketchup?" I mean, they're not going to ask that question. That's just one sliver. It's like, "Well, here's an anti acid reduction." "Okay, that's great."
So just talk about your perspective on, again, you're not against medicine, but just healing as opposed to curing. And it seems like in our Western medical culture, it does seem to be changing a bit. There are some enlightened doctors that are beginning to talk about this. As you would know better than me, there are doctors who talk about holistic medicine, and they're licensed doctors, but they also talk about other things. Not many, but some. Just talk about how you view that, the curing versus healing and how you work with people that you work with.
Sharon Land:
So first interesting to note on my roster all of the time, I have at least one doctor, one nurse, one practitioner, one PA, and they come to me because they're living in conflict. There's something that's showing up in their lives and they can't figure out what's going on. So we go through the process of their own healing journey and becoming more of who they are and understanding who they are and why they are where they are, which is fascinating and beautiful. We walk the line, we walk the line of the esoteric and however much they embrace. And then it's so fun to see the progress of, "Okay, well I know that this is this, but I'm still going to go to the doctor because my cholesterol is high." And the doctor will say, "Okay, well you need to go on a statin," right? And they'll say, "Well, I don't want to go on a statin, but I can't tell them it's because I'm working with my inner child right now and I really think that I'll be able to reduce my cholesterol by whatever."
So they figure out a way to walk the line of the healing work and live authentically to who they are, and also not cause any harm to how they're showing up currently where their feet are planted right now in their professions. So we have context which is very important to our healing, which I think is a big part of it. So Western medicine is designed, especially here in the US, as emergency medicine. So it makes complete sense that when somebody shows up to the emergency room, to the doctor's office, to the clinic, to the whatever, things have gotten to a point of it's critical. There's some sort of critical piece. So I would never say, we don't need a doctor to help with a broken bone or to help with a heart attack when it's happening or whatever.
Now, what caused the heart attack? That's a whole different story. How we can never get there again, that's a whole different story. So for instance, we're still so misinformed, even through our traditional training and teaching for doctors, for instance, women in menopause, one of the number one risk factors of women in menopause is not them losing their minds because their hormones are dropping, it's heart disease, it's cardiac disease. And because they've gone untreated for as long as they've gone, they're at a much higher risk. And also there is a prevalence of heart attacks or heart arrhythmia or issues within the heart. So when I say root cause, I'm not always just saying trauma. I'm saying what is it the root of what your needs are?
Warwick Fairfax:
And that could be physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual. It could be all sorts of different roots. And so how do you explore those? So talk a bit about holistic healing. And there's different spiritual practices that you obviously have to tailor to whoever's with you. If you have some corporate executive, there's probably going to be some Eastern traditions they're really not too open to or any. So it depends on the person, but you probably have a whole bunch of tools that you can find, I'm guessing, one that will fit for them. "Okay, you don't like this? That's fine, how about this other one?"
Sharon Land:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So talk about how that works as you're dealing with folks. What does holistic healing look like? It's not in conflict with Western medicine, but it's different. So what do you try to do with somebody that says, "Hey, Sharon, I kind of need help," what does that look like, holistic healing?
Sharon Land:
So it's very much of how you've just introduced it, so it's meeting the person where they are. One of the skills that I would say that I'm very strong with is I'm very intuitive and I'm able to read people pretty quickly, and from the most purest of lenses. So not in a critical, "There's something wrong with you," or whatever, but just like, "Okay, where are you?" I ask myself that question when I'm talking to somebody, "Where are you?" I ask, "Where is this person? Where are the pressures?" Many, many times I've worked with people who work on Wall Street, and a very typical secret that they hide for a long time are panic attacks. They're having panic attacks, anxiety, literally. Some where they're hiding from their partners. They'll go and hide in an office room where they know that people don't normally go and they'll lay on the floor because they're having a panic attack.
So I might see that, I might know that, but asking the direct question, "Are you having a panic attack?" Or, "Are you doing whatever" would be very, very unsafe? And make them put their walls of protection up more. So to navigate and find our way into what feels right for them in that moment to help to address things, I feel is an art. And it's very, very important because my dedication to myself when I was going through the last pieces of my healing is I do not want any place that my metaphorical feet go or physical feet go, that aren't with love and acceptance. And I feel the same way with all of the people that I'm blessed to be able to work with. Every single place we go has to come from a place of, "I'm ready." And that readiness takes as long as it takes.
Warwick Fairfax:
Probably this sort of intuitive dance. I can think of obviously there are differences between men and women in our society, certainly Western society, men are taught to sort of buckle up, be strong, don't admit weakness, don't be vulnerable, and certainly a lot of male anyway, Wall Street executives to admit they have panic attacks, that's admitting they're weak, which they're taught is you never, ever do. You just say, "Oh, things are good, I'm fine." But that could be perfectionism. It's like, "Gosh, the market's down. My whole sense of self is defined by the stock market. If it's up, I'm a good person. If it's down, I'm a bad person." So obviously try to disconnect that. But obviously with some male Wall Street executives, it's got to be challenging. But over time you build up a relationship and they trust you and sort of lock by block, drip by drip, the truth, their truth comes out. So you're probably very good at what you do that once trust is built, one way or another, they'll let you know what the problem is, right? It'll come out.
Sharon Land:
Yes. And I really believe that it's never about what's right and wrong, although there are very few things that I'll be like, "That's right and wrong." But it's really about understanding the organic essence of who you are and why you're here and looking at what you're surrounded with to see what is not in alignment with that. So I give an example, and I say this many times, because then I have people who are the opposite, where they read all of the books and they see all the memes and they're on social media and they're just like, "I have CPTSD," and, "I have this," and, "I was traumatized and I'm abused and I want to fix it all now. I just want to fix it now." And I'm like, "All right, pump the brakes and we're going to again come with our agreement, which is no more suffering."
That's one of the first things that I have every single client come to an agreement with me and some put it up on their computers, no more suffering so that they can remind themselves every single day that suffering is a choice. Pain is going to happen regardless, but suffering is a choice. So I give this example of a city block, so let's just say we're on a city block and somebody plants a tree next to a fire hydrant and it's a sapling and there's plenty of space for the two of them to coexist. But 100 years later, that tree has continued to grow and it's now grown around the fire hydrant.
So I can walk by and say, "That fire hydrant's not supposed to be there," or, "That tree's not supposed to be there. So we got to fix it." If I were to go in and try and eradicate that fire hydrant from the tree and we'll just benefit the tree over the fire hydrant because the tree is living and the fire hydrant is not. So what would happen to the tree if I removed that fire hydrant in completion? It would probably die because for 100 years it has accommodated and it is coexisted with, even though it's not in alignment, it's not supposed to be there, you can see in the leaves and in the branches the reflection of the fire hydrant and the impact and the impression that made on it.
So bit by bit you work with, you sit, you rest, you digest, you observe, you allow the healthy aspects of self to come through and do its magic, and then you go back in again and you allow yourself to be guided. And that's the beautiful thing of the work with me is that it's not in a can, it's not a program where I walk people through paces and whatever. It's a dance of just that, where we're guided. And in the beginning it doesn't feel very organic. But in the end, one of the reflections that I get from everyone that I work with is like, "Wow, I came in asking for tools," and I'll look at them and I'll joke and I'll say, "You need another tool like you need another window on your house. You don't need another tool. You've got a whole extra garage and shed just to hold all of the tools that you have just to be able to exist in your life. What you need is to be able to show up and organically be you and trust yourself."
Warwick Fairfax:
A different perspective. That's really interesting the metaphor of the tree and the fire hydrant. Some things will heal and maybe some things, to a degree, won't exactly heal, but you learn to live with them and they become part of your new you and your new purpose. And obviously, there's extreme example of people with physical challenges, there are some wounds that it's not possible to physically heal, but you learn to become the new you. Somehow you weave it into your purpose and helping people understand patience. And I imagine you give people skills so that when they're not with you in a session, they're able to self-diagnose, help.
By nature, I'm a very reflective person, that has its pluses and minuses, but usually, if something's wrong, I want to know why and where. I don't brush over it. I'm just not wired that way. So I'd love just as we kind of begin to close, I mean you've got so many great things, you've got the Prismatic program. I love this whole Live Your Legacy. We don't often think enough about legacy and purpose. And I'm guessing in what you do... Or maybe I should ask a question, this is maybe an obvious question, but to what degree does it help somebody to have purpose and feeling like life is not just about them, it's both and yes, it's about being the best person you can be, but it's also about making a contribution in the world, whatever that means to you? Do you feel like that has a place in healing and moving forward when you see your purpose in the world and there's some other centered nature to it?
Sharon Land:
Yeah. And some would argue that we have multiple purposes, right? And I believe that too. So for me, it comes down to personal responsibility. And so we're responsible for the energy that we bring to every single situation. So I'm responsible to the energy that I'm bringing here and with whether it's going to the store, getting a coffee, meeting with the clients, [inaudible 00:40:51] with my partner, with my children. So to me, your legacy has a lot to do with the essence of who you are. And that's beautiful. It's like a fingerprint. It's all very different, some similarities between others, but the essence of who you are is that feeling that you're left with after you're gone, and that's spirit also.
So living your legacy isn't always necessarily about the job that you do, but really getting to know the essence of who you are so that everywhere you go it's purpose-filled and you don't need a tangible, binary transactional proof of that. And to live, to me, it's so beautiful to be able to live in a way that you know that whether things go the way that you want them to or think they're supposed to or don't, that somebody listens to you, understands you or doesn't, that you are exactly where you're meant to be, doing and saying exactly what you're meant to be saying and what you are-
Warwick Fairfax:
And that will leave a positive influence on your kids, friends, somebody you meet at the grocery store, these imperceptible imprints, you will leave if you're your best self, you'll leave a positive mark. And so that your legacy doesn't have some big nonprofit. It can be in 100, 1,000 relationships, meeting conversations, that can be part of your legacy. It may not be tangible, but it may still be beautiful, if that makes sense.
Sharon Land:
Yes, yes, exactly.
Gary Schneeberger:
I've been uncharacteristically quiet in this entire conversation, partly because truly Sharon, I can tell, I've been through enough of these with Warwick, when he's really interested in what a guest is having to say. So every time I think I'm going to be able to jump in, he has a follow-up question, which is great.
Warwick Fairfax:
Sorry about that.
Gary Schneeberger:
No, that's what makes the show what it is. But I'm curious, one of the things that we stand for, that Warwick stands for at Beyond the Crucible a lot, we encourage people to find that life of significance, what he defines as a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. And when we talked before we started recording, you told me something that I've circled on my paper that tells me you are indeed living that life of significance. And you said this to me, that you've discovered the giver is always the receiver.
Sharon Land:
Yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
Is that a fair analysis of all that you've been talking about right here on this episode?
Sharon Land:
Yes, yes, yes. There is no greater gift than to see someone in their fullest expression, and especially when we all have living examples, we see it, we've experienced it, people close to us or people who we've known in the media where there was such a deep pain within them that they felt they couldn't live in their expression and it ended poorly for them. So to me, most of my life, I was like the Cyrano de Bergerac of helpers. So I was always behind the scenes, never really seen whatever, and the one whispering the whatever, and that there was a great gift in that. But now that I find that I am doing it in a way where I am divinely guided to do, and being front and center, being interviewed by you, by being on stages, by speaking, by being on television and all of that, I believe that there's such beautiful alignment and that the more I can give from a place of safety, truth, presence, authenticity, life is good.
Warwick Fairfax:
When you're who you are and you're giving to others out of the very essence of what makes Sharon Sharon, and you're helping people and once in a while, probably very often, they say, "Sharon, you got me through this tough time. I've never been more fully who I am. I've never been more joyful. Life isn't necessarily easy, but yet I have a bigger smile on my face than before we met," that has got to give you so much joy in which you say, "Well, thank you," and it's okay to be filled with joy when you somehow make a small or a big difference. It's okay to feel that pleasure and satisfaction, and at least from my spiritual time, I say that, "Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Jesus for the opportunity." And yeah, I greatly, it means a lot to feel like you're doing something and making a difference in the world, be it small or big, nobody may know, maybe many will know, but you know. And that matters. Does that make sense?
Sharon Land:
It totally makes sense. I'm in partnership with someone and we have a wonderful relationship, and so we go to the gym together and I work with professional athletes, and so no one knows. No one knows that I'm working with that particular professional athlete. I don't go out, I have no need to tell anyone who my clients are. Actually the Live My Legacy retreat is such a high touch, bespoke experience to protect the identities of the people that are coming. But it's so great that when I see my client on the TV screen, as we're at the gym working out, at least I have someone who I can like... You know? There's joy in that because we both love them because many times we work together and we have some things that we do together. So we both know this particular client and we absolutely adore who we're working with and honor them. So yeah, it's a beautiful thing. It's beautiful.
Gary Schneeberger:
I'm going to jump in again here because I'd be remiss, Sharon, if I didn't give you the chance after all you've talked about here that you help people with, if I didn't give you the chance to tell our listeners and viewers just how they can find out more about you and your services on the worldwide web. So where can they go?
Sharon Land:
Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Well, my website is sharanjeanland.com. My Instagram handle is @SharonJeanLand. You can find me also on LinkedIn. And I love working with community and I love creating movements for other individuals. I have a few different ways that I work with individuals and groups, and I would say my primary is more of a high touch service where I'm working one-on-one as a mentor. And when we speak holistically, we're talking about all areas and aspects.
So from professional, business, personal, relational, physical health, financial health. And I was just talking with someone this morning before our call and said, "You're only as strong as your weakest link," so I wouldn't feel like I was doing my job if I wasn't able to help to work within all of the complexities of all of the moving parts of somebody's life. So I do that from my own personal success and experience and failures and things that I've learned from, and I really do it well and am able to really get in there and help individuals not have to completely obliterate their lives in order to be able to move forward in a different way. So I'm a little bit of an artist when it comes to that.
We do have our Live Your Legacy Retreat coming up in October, and it's a very small, intimate group, which we do have space for the right person who is a high performer, looking to really understand the essence of who they are and understand the legacy that they're here to live and create a greater alignment within themselves. So it's a wonderful opportunity to be able to just take space, which most high performers don't ever feel like they have time for. Yeah, and we have some performance where we work with some high performance people who are professional athletes and out there on the big international stages. So I work with people globally as well. So acculturation is really important and I love that piece as well.
Gary Schneeberger:
So Warwick, as always, the last question or questions, because you get to pick if you want to ask one or two or three or four, the last question or questions are yours for Sharon.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Sharon, there might be somebody listening and watching today that maybe they feel like today's their worst day, they might feel like the mistake they made is unforgivable or what was done to them might just seem so painful, and maybe that's manifested itself in illnesses. What would a word of hope for that person be? Because today they might feel pretty hopeless and that there is no path forward. What would a word of hope be if today was somebody's worst day?
Sharon Land:
Well, to be aware of the fact that it's one of your worst days is a blessing and a gift and a sign of your health and a sign of your capacity to grow and serve and expand. Even though you might feel hopeless, to recognize that says that you have something there. And it doesn't have to be a huge phoenix rising moment for you. And that some of the best ways to show up in life are making small, tiny measurable steps in percentages of 1%, half percent, 10% differences in your life. And if you feel down, it's okay. Let yourself feel down. Remember what it feels like, remember where you are right now, and honor all of these experiences that you have physically and emotionally and spiritually because this is a sign pointing you in a direction of where you can go to help to address where you're meant to go.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on a subject has been spoken. And our guest today has indeed spoken it not only the last word, but she's also spoken... Go back and listen to this and watch this again. You, Sharon, are a master dropper of metaphors. Love it. There's like three or four things I've written down. The metaphors that you speak about the things that you encounter and how we can overcome them are grand. So bravo for that.
So Warwick, we're just minutes after we closed our conversation with Sharon Land, and it was a wide ranging conversation that people will notice when they watch it you are particularly engaged in. So I'm dying to know what's the big takeaway that you got from our time, our chat with Sharon?
Warwick Fairfax:
Sharon has an interesting view of wellness. One of the things she talks about is in Western medicine, we can be so focused on the cure that we don't consider other ways of healing, other approaches. And she's not against Western medicine, that can be very helpful. But I think what she's advocating is looking beyond just trying to cure the disease to what are some of the factors that led to it? So she looks at the whole person, emotional, spiritual, and physical. Some obviously as we know, diet and exercise can definitely help in terms of making you healthy and lowering cholesterol, and there are some things we all know about, but just looking at overall wellness, certainly high stress can lead to adverse health consequences. The exact connection, it's not easy to tell, but I think it's known that there is some connection. So what are the ways we can reduce stress as well as just increasing wellness overall?
And it's interesting hearing about Sharon's story. She shares that when she was 12, 13, and a teenager, obviously as a child you're not really in charge of your health, your parents are, and she went through a number of challenges. But what was interesting is when she said that she had a stroke in 2005 and then a committed relationship she was in broke up, those were absolutely devastating. But I sense from what she said that as devastating as it was, she has some tools to help her that she didn't have when she was a child that helped her deal with those better and bounce back.
So she has a number of private clients, some are probably pretty well-known athletes, but it's obviously all confidential and she wants to protect that, and she's able to just give them a wide variety of tools, different spiritual modalities, so to help people just get in touch with who they are, what are some of the causes of it? How do you manage some of those things? How do you accept maybe the new normal? Just doing more than just traditional medicine, as good as that is, but just try to deal with the whole person.
And as people are bouncing back from their crucibles, you've got to deal with the whole person. You've got to deal with how you process your crucible to bounce back. You've got to understand the causes. You've got to make a choice to move forward and not wallow in what you went through. There are consequences that sometimes won't change. You've got to learn how to live in the new normal. So she dwells in a space that definitely has overlap with what we do.
So yeah, medicine is useful, but there are things that you have to do beyond just taking traditional medicine, which is helpful, to deal with the whole person, the underlying causes, what's leading to stress, is it unresolved conflict? Using prayer or other spiritual modalities. So it was very thought-provoking discussion about what does wellness mean in the broad sense of the word?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, those areas that you said that she overlaps with Beyond the Crucible, I was struck by one at the end of the process, the life of significance process. She said this, which I just thought I've never heard a guest phrase it this way, but it's so true with what we know from our own experiences and the experience of the guests. She said this, that she's discovered the giver is always the receiver. There's a life of significance right there. As you give, you receive. I mean, talk about that a little bit. That's a pretty profound statement, and it definitely aligns with what we do.
Warwick Fairfax:
It sure is. I mean, that's such a great point, Gary. One of the things we say is, yes, you've got to understand what happened, your crucible, you've got to have times of reflection. We talk about this quite a bit in the Actionable Truths series that we're going through. But really one of the things that we say is one of the keys to getting out of the pit of despair is to have a vision, a life-affirming vision that leads to a life of significance, a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. And very often, for many, if not most of our guests, their life-affirming vision comes out of the crucible, "I don't want anybody to go through what I went through. I want to help people that went through what I went through to bounce back."
So when you're focused on helping others and you see that you've made a difference, and somebody says, "Boy, Gary, Warwick, what you did, it kind of helped me," and when you feel like what you're doing is making a difference, it's kind of a bit easier to get out of bed in the morning. It feels like life has purpose. It's easier to be grateful. It's easy to be thankful. And there's some level of internal emotional, spiritual healing which, who knows, might have physical benefits too. But yeah, when we're focusing on giving and not just receiving and focus on helping others, there's definitely some, I think, overall wellness and certainly spiritual and emotional benefits.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, until the next time we're together, please remember this truth. We know your crucible experiences are hard. Warwick's been through them, Sharon's been through them, I've been through them. But we also know this, they're not the end of your story. That's what we talked about here today. In fact, they can be the beginning of a new story that can be the best story of your life because where it's going to lead you is to a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Building a Life-Changing Gratitude Habit
How do we train our brains, hearts and souls to dial into gratitude? That’s the ground we cover today as we look at Warwick’s latest blog — How to Tap Into the Life Changing Power of Gratitude.
We explore seven steps that will help you focus more regularly on being grateful. And, as a bonus, we also discuss the physical, psychological and social benefits of living from an attitude of gratitude.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. We need to train our brains, our hearts, even our souls, to dwell on gratitude. So gratitude will help give us energy and power to move us forward, which we all want to do, especially when we've had a crucible. We want to move forward. We want to move beyond it. And gratitude, it helps us power us forward to a more positive outlook on life that will actually help us lives of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
How do we train our brains, hearts and souls to dial into gratitude? That's the ground we cover today as we look into Warwick's latest blog, how to tap into the Life-Changing Power of Gratitude? We explore seven steps that will help you focus more regularly on being grateful. And as a bonus, we also discuss the physical, psychological, and social benefits of living with an attitude of gratitude. Welcome folks, to another episode of Beyond the Crucible, and this is one of the fun ones. Well, they're all fun ones, let's be honest. But this is one of those Warwick, that we discuss your most recent blog at Beyondthecrucible.com. And you felt very strongly about this one. You chose the topic from several ideas you thought about over this summer that just now as we're recording this, ended just two days ago. So let's start off by how I always begin episodes like this where we're going over one of your blogs, and that is, what led you to write this blog, which is titled How to Tap Into the Life-Changing Power of Gratitude? What was it that made that what you had to write about this month?
Warwick Fairfax:
Life is not easy, and it's normal and understandable for our minds to drift to things that are challenging. We can think of everything that's gone wrong, what's going wrong now, what's gone wrong in the past, what will go wrong in our lives in the future. We often think of, "Oh, I hope this doesn't happen. Oh, I've got a terrible feeling about this coming meeting, or this family Thanksgiving or Christmas." We can just drift into all of the things that we're worried about, or I don't know, there could be cutbacks at work and I got a bad feeling about it. So you mind drift, everything that has gone wrong, is going wrong, will go wrong. And then we drift into thinking about people that have hurt us. People that have let us down. Maybe it's at work, maybe friends, maybe family. And then we can think of the mistakes we've made. "Gosh, boy, that was so stupid. Why did I do that?"
And then we just certainly, I do this quite a bit, almost this endless of just, "Why did I do that? That was just not smart. I wish I hadn't." I know we can get into almost this endless negative, depressing cycle of thoughts and one feeds on another that we have this almost doom loop, this flywheel of negativity. One bad thought leads to another and off we go. So it's understandable that we have these negative thoughts because life is not easy. But we have to ask ourselves, how does this serve us? And the answer is, it doesn't. To move forward in our lives and bounce back from our worst day, our crucibles to a more fulfilling life, which we call a life of significance. We need to train our brains to think differently. We need to train our brains to think of more positive, indeed helpful thoughts.
And this is not a natural thing. Our brains tend to go to the negativity, to the current in front of us, to cut us off, or that bad meeting that we just came out of, or challenges at home. That's all very natural. It's not natural to start thinking of positive thoughts, but we need to train our brains, our hearts, even our souls to dwell on gratitude. So gratitude will help give us energy and power to move us forward, which we all want to do, especially when we've had a crucible. We want to move forward, we want to move beyond it. And gratitude helps us power us forward to a more positive outlook on life that will actually help us live lives of significance. And it's interesting as I think about the origin story of this discussion. Yes, I've been thinking of a lot of things over the summer when we do the summer movie series, and we do that in advance like we've mentioned.
So there's still things to do, but it's not quite the same pace. So being a reflective person, lots of ideas percolate in my brain. And so there was one time towards the end of the summer, where we are in Northern Michigan is about an hour away from the nearest airport. And I'm dropping my oldest son off at the airport. It's about an hour drive. And so after I've dropped him off, I have, as I mentioned, an hour's drive back to where we are. And that goes along the shores of Lake Michigan. And so it's summer. And so you can see the sun glimmering in the water. You've got these beautiful trees and small towns. It's a very beautiful, restful drive. And so here I am, I'm in the car for a while, it's just me. And on the spur of the moment, without some plan, I just think about gratitude. And it wasn't some big plan. I just thought, "I'm going to spend the rest of this drive, which is an hour, thinking about everything I was grateful for in life." It wasn't some plan. I thought, "Okay, let's start, see what happens."
And so I did. And just like with thoughts of negativity, one thought can lead to another. Thoughts of positivity, gratitude, one thought can lead to another. So just to give you an idea, I'm a person of faith. So I started with faith. And so I started thinking about, "Wow, I remember when faith, in my case, faith in Christ became important in my life." It was at an evangelical Anglican church at Oxford University where I went, St Aldates was the church. I remember thinking about the friend who invited me to church and I said no a few times, but eventually came. I think about the Anglican retreat on the Devon coast of England, Lee Abbey, which was an Oxford-Cambridge retreat. And I began thinking about the walks along the cliffs, and the countryside, and the afternoons, and singing choruses and Christian choruses and listening to testimonies and sermons. And I'm thinking about how wonderful that was.
And I drifted, time in New York when I lived there in a couple churches I was in there and that life group. And I think about back in Australia and some people that were very helpful during those challenging times with the takeover in the family media business. And think about the church I go to now, and I'm blessed to be an elder there. So I got pretty specific. And so then I drifted to other thoughts, to family. So I started with faith and then I went to family. I think of my wife, Gail, who we've been married over 35 years, and how blessed I am. I think of my three adult kids, will, Gracie, and Robbie, what a blessing they are. I think of meaningful work that I have. So I think it doesn't have to be this way, but I think often for many of us when we're thinking about gratitude or indeed prayer, we can break it down in faith, or beliefs, values, whatever that means to you. Faith, family, work, just big categories.
And in terms of work, I think of all the things we do at Beyond the Crucible, and the wonderful team I have and how much I love what we do. I think of the nonprofits I've been involved in, such as being an elder at my church. And for many years I was on the board of my kids' school, which is a Christian school. So the bottom line is, by the end of that drive, I was feeling incredibly grateful, incredibly blessed and uplifted. I was in a good mood after an hour thinking of how blessed I am in each of these areas of my life. And again, it was an hour, so I went into a lot of detail, faith, family, work. And that whole exercise, which was unplanned, reminded me of how important it is to be positive, and how important it is to be grateful because it's not natural to do what I did, to think about all the wonderful things that have blessed your life. We just tend to go to the negative and ignore the positive.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and it's interesting because you talk about the intentionality of that, and I have my own origin story a little bit on, and I'll talk about some more of it later, but here's one of them right here. It's a book called The Little Book of Gratitude that I have, and I just go through it periodically. And one of the things that's interesting, because you said at the end of that drive, you felt great. There's a physical feeling that comes with that. Well, one of the things that I've found for a while now in this book, the Little Book of Gratitude, is that there's a PhD named Robert Evans who is one of the world's leading authorities on gratitude. He's a professor of psychology at the University of California Davis. And he has enumerated some, and I'm not going to go through all of them, but he's enumerated some of the physical, and emotional, and mental benefits, the true benefits of gratitude.
Here's just a few of the things. Physical well-being, stronger immune systems for those who lean into gratitude, lower blood pressure, sleep longer, and feel more refreshed upon waking. Hallelujah for that. There's psychological well-being he also talks about, higher levels of positive emotions. We all would benefit from that for sure. More joy and pleasure. Who doesn't want that? Who doesn't want more joy or pleasure? And Robert Evans says that when you lean into gratitude, when you find and dig into those things that you're grateful for, that's what can come up. And then I'll just mention social well-being, more forgiving. Well, my goodness, we talk about forgiveness all the time here at Beyond the Crucible.
So if you have gratitude for the things in your life that are good, for the people in your life that are good, that bless you, that can make you more forgiving, and that can help you get beyond your crucible. And less loneliness and more outgoing. So those are just some of the things, Little Book of Gratitude that Robert Evans talks about. But Warwick, I'm interested, what's your reaction to these physical, emotional, mental areas of well-being that can come from being what you've just talked about, what we're talking about here, and that's gratitude?
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things I talk about is these so-called Blue Zones in different parts of the world where you've got people that live longer, and Mediterranean and different places, and they analyze, well why? And some of it makes sense. They have a great diet like in the Mediterranean, it's more of a Mediterranean diet, pasta, vegetables, fruit, nuts, what have you. They have a circle of friends that they spend time with. They have some connection to faith, higher power or something like that. And they're naturally positive people. The glass is half full. They just have this sunny disposition and surprise, they live longer. Well, that research, if you will, is cross-currents with Robert Evans research, which is having this attitude of gratitude, having this sense of positivity, it is beneficial in every area of your life, physical, psychological, social. So it makes sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
And folks, if you want to have those psychological, those physical health benefits, here we go. We're going to go into Warwick's blog now. And I know you'll be surprised like I was when I first read the blog that Warwick has, wait for it, seven points in his blog. It's funny, Warwick, I always build our runs of show, the things that we're going to talk about off the previous episode. And the last time we did this before the summer series, you had nine. I almost fell over when I remembered that you had nine points, but we have seven this time. So let's run through those points in all seriousness, because they are good ones. They are points that will help you folks find, tap into, locate your gratitude. And the first one is this, pause the anger and grievance cycle. Talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
So we have to stop the flywheel of doom and negativity, because it's normal for that to be a flywheel, one thought leads to another and off you go. You've got to stop that endless cycle of negativity, of recriminations for what you've done wrong and what was done to you. You've got to just pray, pause, meditate, and just pray, look to a higher power just for strength to just, let me pause and stop. Let me just clear my mind, be still, maybe it's take a walk in the woods. Whatever it takes to just clear your mind. Maybe it's just doing something that would take your mind off it. Maybe you're a painter, maybe you like to make things in your shop, just different woodworking, whatever it takes. Find a way, be it prayer, meditation or things to take your mind off it to a positive direction. Find a way to pause the anger and grievance cycle, because you can't move forward in a positive direction until you stop what can feel like an endless cycle of thoughts of negativity.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and it's interesting that you mentioned artists, someone who might be a painter. Because I was thinking as you were saying that, this step, pause, the anger and grievance cycle is like starting is like wiping your slate clean, wiping your palette clean, what you're going to paint on, giving yourself a canvas to paint something on. And your second point is when you begin the painting process. And your second point is this, think of at least one thing you're grateful for. One thing you can paint on that palette. So talk about why that's so important.
Warwick Fairfax:
Now, this might feel like on your worst days, almost impossible. It's like, "What could I possibly be grateful for? I've been betrayed, I've made some horrific decisions. My business is going under, I've just got fired. I've been grateful. What could there possibly be to be grateful for?" But typically there's at least one thing. Maybe it's a spouse, a partner, maybe it's a child, a friend, a parent. Maybe it's a friend at school. Maybe it's just being grateful for some of the abilities you have. Maybe you're athletic, or artistic, or maybe you just have this love of learning and reading. Think of one thing that you're grateful for, and for people of faith, it could be broader. It could be just being thankful for having God in your lives. It's interesting as I thought about, what's one thing it could be grateful for? Actually, my mind drifted, being reflective, back our summer movie series and Rudy. And you remember, and you can tell our friends here, but Rudy grew up in this working class neighborhood, Indiana, not far from Chicago.
And he wanted to play football at Notre Dame, which being at the time, a senior of high school, just out of it was like an impossible dream. Everybody was very negative. Everybody's almost laughed at him. But he had this friend at the steel mill where he worked after high school, and this one friend kept encouraging him, and he gave him a Notre Dame jacket where he wanted to play. So I guess the point of the story is, if you ask Rudy what's one thing or one person you can be grateful for, probably the first thing he would say is, "My friend at the mill." Other than that, what are you grateful for? Well, he'd probably be hard perhaps to think of anything at that point in his life, if that makes sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, for sure. That's a very great example of if you just look around, if you do a 360, if you look, you'll find it. It's there. I think our experience tells us that. And the experience of the guests we've had on the show tells us that. And the experience of the people we know in our lives tells us that. This quote I'm about to read from the Little Book of Gratitude tells us that too. This is from someone named Alphonse Carr. Alphonse Carr said this, I love this. "Some people are because roses have thorns." He said, "I am thankful. I am thankful that thorns have roses." Sometimes the way to find gratitude is to just change your perspective, to look at something in a different way. That's a fair way to do it. Don't look at it in the way that leads you to feel, "I'm on the bad end of this." Switch around, change your perspective, find the good end. That's a pretty good kernel of wisdom, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It is, maybe you wanted to go outside and have a run and it's raining. It's like God, really, and it's not a massive crucible, but rather than saying that, it's like, "Well, at least my grass will grow and the flowers will get watered." And rain can be just refreshing. And anything in life you can look at negatively, on the other hand, you can look at it positively. Maybe it's Thanksgiving and you got some challenging family members coming. It's like, "Well, okay, maybe it's an opportunity to reset. Maybe I can think of something I can be grateful for them, and maybe it's going to be an opportunity where I can encourage that crusty, incorrigible uncle that I have. That's always a pain. Let me think of something positive about him and I'm going to think of a way to reset this time. So your attitude going into things makes a huge difference.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I'm a little spooked, Warwick, that you brought up raining when you want to go running. Do you ever tap into my ring doorbell? Because that's exactly what's going on in Wisconsin today as we're talking. So I'm not going to be able to run at least outside because it's raining. But enough about that. Let's go to the third point in your blog and the third point in your blog is this, begin to create categories of things and people you are grateful for. Why is that the next good and logical step to build gratitude?
Warwick Fairfax:
So part of this is, you're trying to set up a flywheel of hope. You're trying to set up a flywheel of gratitude. And so to do that, it takes a few steps. Because often it's not easy to go from negativity to positivity. And so even if you've paused the anger and grievance cycle, if you're not careful, it's almost like being on a steep hill. You can start slipping. And so it's good to think of not just one thing from my perspective, but just think of a bunch of things. You think of your family. You can think of parents, spouse, partner, kids, friends, people you've known different times of your life, co-workers. It could be relationships you have now, it could be in the past. Think of the work you do. Maybe there are some things you can think of that you are grateful for. Think of the gifts and abilities that you have.
So it helps before getting into a deep dive to think of the categories. And I think one easy way to think of it, you could break it down into three broad categories, faith, family, work. It could be more than that. You could call it beliefs, family, work, and you could add on activities and hobbies. But a good place to start is with those three, you can always expand, faith, family, work. And so now you've got three categories or more to mine from. So you might be thinking, "Okay, what's one thing I can think of in each area?" one thing leads to another. But having categories helps you move from one thing to more than one thing.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good stuff. Folks, we are talking about Warwick's latest blog, which is called How to Tap into the Life-Changing Power of Gratitude. We are on step four to build that, to find that life-Changing power of gratitude. And step four is this, spend time in each of these categories and go into some detail. So you've got the categories, you've built them, now you lean into them, now you really spend time ruminating on them, exploring them, unpacking them. Talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
So for me as a person of faith, on that drive back from the airport dropping my son off, that hour drive back, I started with faith as I mentioned. I got into some detail about where I came to faith in Christ. It's an old Evangelical Anglican church at Oxford, and just that student retreat center on the Devon Coast, Lee Abbey. But I didn't stop there. I thought of after that I worked in New York on Wall Street for about three years, and I began to think about a couple of churches I went to and life group that I was in that was so helpful. I think about back during my takeover years back in Australia, growing up in the family media business. And obviously for more on that, it's in other blogs, podcasts, and on the website. But suffice it to say it was very challenging.
I think about just a circle of friends, some, my age, some older that really came onside me, prayed with me, and incredibly valuable. And I think about the church I'm involved in now in Annapolis, Bay Area Community church where I'm an elder and the group of friends I have there. So that's just one strand, a faith strand. I went there during that drive, all these different elements throughout my life. And I did the same thing about my family. I did the same thing about work. So just going through every area of your life that you can think of and one thought leads to another, it can make you very grateful. I was thinking about not just what we do on the podcast, but some of the things that I was involved in in both the school, I was on the board of an [inaudible 00:23:46] Christian School, and we would work on governance and a strategic plan. I was heavily involved in both, and governance and various other things. And being an elder at my church, Bay Area Community Church.
I went into some detail about being grateful to have an opportunity to use my gifts and abilities in organizations that I deeply cared about. And I felt grateful for the opportunity to serve, and use my abilities to help the organizations and ultimately people that I cared about. So that just gives you an illustration of how gratitude in all areas of your life, relationships, the skills and abilities you have, the people that have been so helpful to you, it can just fill you with gratitude and positivity, if you let your mind run in a positive way.
Gary Schneeberger:
And as always with these blog episodes Warwick, you've built them step by step by step. So what you just said, if you just let your mind lead you in a positive way, well the next point that you make in the blog is where the rubber will continue to meet the road. And that's this, commit to being grateful on a regular basis. So we've taken up until now what we've described as low-risk probes, small steps. Now is the chance to sort of make this a lifetime commitment. So why is commit to being grateful on a regular basis critical to what you're talking about in this blog?
Warwick Fairfax:
So think of it like diet and exercise. Exercising once a year doesn't do a whole lot of good. You've got to have a regular pattern. I think people would say ideally several times a week. And it's very much like gratitude. If you've got to find a system, and it might be difficult at first, I'd say every day find time to take at least a few minutes to be grateful. You don't have to do what I did for an hour. I just happened to be in the car. It was a beautiful drive back along Lake Michigan, when we were there in Northern Michigan during the summer. But we can find a few minutes to think of at least one thing or more that we're grateful for. And what you might find is, those few minutes might turn into longer. Maybe you've got a 40-minute commute to work every day.
So rather than just listening to a podcast, of course if it's this podcast, then by all means listen to a podcast. But let's say you've listened to a podcast, ideally this one, either on your way to work or on the way back. Okay, you've got another half of the journey to do something other than listen to music, podcasting or what have you. And that's 40 minutes you can think of things you're grateful for. You are in the car, you have to be in the car. It is the way it is. So there's usually some time that we have during the day that we can allocate to being grateful.
And again, don't feel like you've got to start out with 40 minutes, the length of your commute. It can be just one or two things, but being regular and consistent with being grateful is very helpful. Because when you do that, you'll find that your attitude to life will begin to change. You'll be more positive. You'll look at life being the glass half full, not half empty. So it's a discipline. It's something that you've got to do every day, at least in some case you can't just think, "Okay, I was grateful three months ago." It's got to be on a regular basis. Find a way to do it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Well, and I'm going to share my way to do it that I found, and this is a gratitude journal, and it's a three-year gratitude journal, which is cool because it has three years of dates. You go through it, and you just write at the end of the day, it's one line a day it says here, I usually write longer than that. That's just me. But it allows me to go through, review the day I've just lived and find things that I'm grateful for. So I'm just going to rip this open right now and see, "Oh, June 15th, there we go." And this is funny, and this is a good one. Look at that. Thank you lord. June 15th of this year, 2025, I wrote this, the Father's Day gift Kelly, my wife, bought me is divine, a necklace with Heather's, Alissa's and Hunter's my kids, birthstones.
And then a great time with the McKissick's, that's Kelly's family, and the Resch's, that's also Kelly's family, at our house tonight. So it was just, that was what happened on that day. And before I go to bed, I pull this out, I write this down. But here's another point I want to make about doing this every day, because there's an important, when you every night stop and say, "Here's what I'm grateful for." Not everything that happened in your day that day is something you're grateful for. You're sifting through it and you're pointing out what you're grateful for. And I want to specifically go to this one, April 3rd of this year, just to show how this can work. Well, here's my entry of what I'm grateful for on April 3rd, to show that things that are great that you are grateful for and things that can be painful, can happen on the same day. But what do you lean into?
So here's what I wrote on the 3rd of April this year, 2025. Laura, my stepmother died today. So glad I got to talk to her yesterday. And then after that comes this. We also celebrated Hunter, my son's 25th birthday, smiley face. That's one of those situations where something really traumatic happens, but you can find something to be grateful for in the context of that. I got to talk to my stepmom the day before she passed away, and then we got to celebrate my son's birthday that same day. So it's not that when you talk about being grateful, Warwick, it's not that you're saying you have to be grateful, or you should be grateful, or you're going to be grateful for everything that happens. It's finding those things that you can be grateful for in the context of whatever happens, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Boy, that's so well said, and that's such a good example, both of them. But obviously losing your stepmother, that's a tragedy. That's just a huge thing to deal with. But obviously there's grieving, there's mourning, but there's also being thankful for the person that she was, and what she meant to you in your life. Even on her worst days, you, Gary found a way to be grateful. Doesn't mean there wasn't grieving and pain, of course, I'm sure it was an excruciating day. But yet you wanted amidst all the pain and devastation you want to think of, well, what's something that I can be grateful for about my stepmom? And be grateful for Hunter's 25th birthday? So it's an excellent example, and I think what that is really saying, and I think it's worth noting, there are different ways of doing it, but I think we should really consider what Gary is doing in which he has a gratitude journal.
And the advantage of writing it down, is that you can look back at previous days, like you just did, June 15, April 3rd. And it doesn't mean you have to do that every day. Thinking of something you're grateful for every day, we believe is very helpful. But by writing it down, it's like there's been a lot of positive things that have happened this year. Who knew? Now, would you remember what happened on February 4th if you didn't look it up, what you're grateful for? Probably not. But by having it there, you could say, "Well, I wonder what happened." It would remind you maybe something positive happened. Gary's looking it up right now.
Gary Schneeberger:
I am.
Warwick Fairfax:
I just picked a random date.
Gary Schneeberger:
Keep talking for a second, Warwick, I've got to find it here really quickly. I have to get my February 24th. There we go. February 4th. February 4th, February 10th, February 4th. Where are you? February 4th. All right, here we go. What am I grateful for on February 4th? The Fantastic Four trailer, the movie for The Fantastic Four, the Fantastic Fourth trailer dropped today. That's what happened on February 4th, I was grateful for.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, if you don't know, Gary's a big fan of superheroes, and I certainly like it too. And so Fantastic Four, it's a fun movie. And yeah, it makes sense that you're grateful for that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, it was my favorite comic book as a kid. So to see that on the big screen done right was great. So that was perfect, thank you for picking that date. That reminds me now.
Warwick Fairfax:
So yeah, I don't do it quite as in an organized fashion, but I think we could all learn from Gary. For me, one of the things I do every evening is before I go to sleep, I have a time of prayer. Typically, in the evening, I have bible study, reflection, some people will do it in the morning, but I do it in the evenings. But as I'm about to go to sleep, in fact, my head's on the pillow at this point, I start doing some scripture memory. I just have done this for a number of years. I've got a set scriptures that I go through, but then I also, in addition to prayer, do some thoughts of being thankful.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. All right, that was point five, folks. Here is point six. Point six is this. Find a place where being grateful is easier. And Warwick's indicated a couple of times that he's talked about his sometimes on drive, sometimes when you have a little solitude, you can do it. So Warwick, what's the importance of this point in the blog?
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's say you're in rush hour traffic, or you're on a freeway and there's an accident that's going to keep you stuck for about two hours, or you've missed your flight at the airport and the airport is shutting down. That could be a time when you want to think of how I can be grateful for being stuck in the airport for three hours, but it's better than the doom loop of negativity. But in terms of a normal rhythm of being grateful, let's make it easy for ourselves. And so find a place where you can be grateful. It could be a walk in the woods, maybe it's a walk in the neighborhood. If you have a nice drive to work, which is probably not too many people, then great. It could be in a museum. It could be just in the ambiance of your favorite coffee shop. Maybe there's somewhere you go for a few minutes, or you take a break at lunch or what have you and you love the smells, the sounds in that place.
Think of a place where being grateful is easier, and then spend a few minutes, or maybe it's 15, 20 minutes, however long you have. But the right place can make being grateful easier. If you are taking a walk in the woods, which we did a lot of, I did certainly when we were in Northern Michigan, if it's just me, which often I'll be walking with family or my wife, but sometimes it's just me. I'll have music on, I'll have my AirPods in and I'll be listening to, sometimes it'll be worship music, sometimes it'll be classical music. And listening to your favorite, for instance, piece of classical music as you're walking through the woods, now you're really primed to be grateful. You just ease back. You're in the mood at that point to be grateful. So find a way and a place that makes being grateful easier.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, folks, we're about to hit the last point of how you tap into the life-changing power of gratitude, Warwick's blog. Here's the last point, and really Warwick, this could be the last point of pretty much everything we talk about beyond the crucible, as you're walking out your life of significance, as you're trying to bounce back from your crucible. And the last point is this, don't give up, because it's not going to be easy. Talk about why that is important, why that ability to keep at it, to not giving up, why that is so critical in this particular instance when it comes to being grateful.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's go back to that analogy of exercise. You've just run for the first time in years, or you've gone on an exercise bike, or whatever it happens to be, and it feels like it's almost killed you. It's like, "I can't believe that, and I'm not doing that again. That's just too hard. I mean, I'm so out of shape and oh my gosh, after five minutes I collapsed. I mean, it was awful." And I get that. But with exercise, do it a few times a week and you find, "Okay, it was still difficult, but it went from almost impossible to merely difficult." Then maybe goes to painful. Then it goes to, "It wasn't too bad. And okay, I can do this." It might take you months to get there, but step at a time. And so really with being grateful, think of it as, don't give up. It's easy to be negative, but what you've got to think of is, what's one thing that I've been grateful for?
It may not be easy, but what's one thing? Just start small and then think, "Okay." And if you have to kind of make it a routine, think of, "Okay, several times a week, I'm going to set aside a time where I'm going to be grateful." And often if it's a commute to work, then you know you're going to be in the car or the train or what have you, and set aside at least part of that time to be grateful. Find a time and a place where you're going to do this. And ideally, as Gary has said, document it, write it down, make a note in your phone, or there's different ways of doing it. But it might be hard at first. You start off with one thing, one person you can be grateful for and then expand that. But you've got to do it regularly. You've got to do it often and don't give up. It will get easier if you keep up. It will get easier if you keep doing it.
Gary Schneeberger:
And here's a good time to do it. This is another quote from the Little Book of Gratitude. I'll do one more quote. This is Ralph Waldo Emerson said this, Warwick. He said, "I awoke this morning with devout Thanksgiving." Love that phrase, devout Thanksgiving, for my friends, the old and the new. Maybe it's the morning. There's an example. He wakes up in the morning and he's grateful for his friends. That could be something just simple, a simple way to start. And we have finished, speaking of starting, we have finished this episode of Beyond the Crucible about Warwick's blog. But before we absolutely finish, we finished going through all the points. I need to ask Warwick an important question, because we've covered a lot of ground here. So Warwick, before we let folks go, what's the one takeaway, the one truth you hope that everybody walks away with from our discussion about your blog on gratitude?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's natural to think of everything that is going wrong in life, that has gone wrong and will go wrong. And it's normal for many, if not most of us. It's not just think of one thing. It may be not easy to think of more than one thing that you're grateful for. It is very easy to think of many, many things that we're not grateful for, that we're angry and bitter, if not maybe even depressed about. It's very easy, you just let your mind go. Or you could spend 40 minutes in a heartbeat about things that you're angry and that you're grumbling about. We don't need to give lessons on that. It's very, very easy to do. And that's our brains naturally do that. And so while it's natural and understandable, clearly it's not helpful. You want to bounce back from your worst day, your crucible to a more fulfilling life, a life of significance, that doesn't happen if you're endlessly weighed down by this doom loop of negativity. It's understandable, but it's not helpful.
So one of the things we say often at Beyond the Crucible, is life is about choices. We need to make a choice. We've said so many times, it might be your worst day, and you're feeling so bad about yourself, or angry about what was done to you, and you don't want to get out of bed. You've got to make a choice to get out of bed and take one positive step forward. We say that in so many different episodes. This is the same way of thinking. We have to make a choice. We need to make a choice to stop the endless cycle of dwelling on disappointments, and the endless cycle of being angry about people who have let us down or betrayed you. We've talked elsewhere extensively about forgiveness. That's one way of stopping that doom loop of just saying, "I will choose to forgive."
That's at least one helpful step to try to stop the endless doom loop of negativity, and anger, and resentment of people that have let you down or hurt you. So you've got to make a choice that I will refuse to keep dwelling on the negativity. Doesn't mean I condone the bad things that were done to me, or the poor choices maybe my boss or others at work have made. But you make a choice not to dwell on the disappointment and the negativity. And then we need to shift. We need to pause. Seek the Lord or whoever you believe is up there, the creator, to just clear your mind, clean the slate, clean the canvas, and begin to think of what we're grateful for. Think of one thing. And that gratefulness needs to be done in a disciplined, regular way like we would take exercise.
If you do that, eventually your disposition in life will shift from being more negative to being more positive. You start with one thing, expand from there, and find a time and a place to do it on a regular basis. Your outlook on life will change. And I think you'll find that not just your outlook on life will change, but your ability to move forward from your worst day to a more fulfilling life and crucible to a life of significance. The pace will quicken. It will get easier to where you want to get to a more fulfilling life, a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good place to end our discussion portion of this. As we always do though, folks, Warwick has come up with, and it's interesting, I didn't realize this when I first read the blog, I always say reflection questions at the end of the blog. And these aren't questions. This time Warwick has written some reflection statements, and I'm going to read them to you so that you can reflect on them on this subject. How to tap into the life-changing power of gratitude, which is Warwick's latest blog at Beyondthecrucible.com. First one is this, stop dwelling on anger and negative emotions. Take time to pray and meditate to clear your mind, your heart, and your soul from these thoughts that are pulling you down. Thought number one for reflection.
The second point of reflection is this. Start thinking of people and things you're grateful for. The list might feel small at first, but dig deep and expand the list as time goes on. His last point in the blog was don't give up. Don't give up if you're going through this reflection. Point number two, keep pressing through because it'll come. And then the third reflection point is this. Find the time and a place to be grateful regularly and be disciplined about it. Being grateful will get easier the more it becomes a new ingrained habit and discipline.
And that folks, I'm grateful for the fact that that has wrapped another, I believe, very insightful and inspiration packed episode of the Beyond the Crucible podcast. So until the next time we're together, please remember that Warwick and I know that your crucibles are hard, they're difficult. There are things that you're maybe not grateful for, that you're certainly not grateful for, at least 360 not grateful for. But we also know they're not the end of your story. And that if you learn the lessons from them, those things that you can be grateful for within them, and you apply them moving forward, the destination that you will be led on, the destination you will walk, the path you'll travel will be one that will end in the greatest place you can be, and that is in a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit Beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Life is not easy. Left to their own devices, our minds tend to drift to everything that has gone wrong and is going wrong in our lives. We think of people who have hurt us and let us down. How could they do that to us?
We think of our career that might not be where we want it to be, or a job we have lost. We think of health challenges or loved ones who have passed away. Life seems to be so unfair. As we reflect on everything that has gone wrong in our lives, and the tumult, division and brokenness in the world, it is easy to get frustrated, angry and even depressed.
But how does this help us bounce back from our worst day, our crucible? It doesn’t. To move forward in our lives, to in some way use the brokenness we feel to help others and live a life of significance, we need to think differently. We need to in some sense rewire our brain and be more disciplined about what we let our mind dwell on. Thinking about all the hurts we feel and see around us rarely serves us.
So what is the alternative? We need to train our brains, indeed our hearts and our souls, to dwell on gratitude. This will fill us with joy and the energy to move past our cruciblers and into a life of significance. Some might say they have so much pain and tragedy in their lives that it is impossible to be grateful. That is understandable. But what is remarkable is that almost every guest on our podcast, Beyond The Crucible, many of whom have gone through incredibly painful setbacks and tragedies, have found a way to be grateful. That sense of gratitude has helped to chart the way forward and given them energy and perspective to not only keep going, but to do so with joy.
Here are some thoughts about how to be grateful.
1. Pause the anger and grievance cycle. For people of faith, that would mean praying to God to help you pause these negative feelings. You know deep down that this is not serving you or the people you love. For some it will mean being still, meditating and clearing your mind of all thoughts, certainly negative ones.
2. Think of at least one thing you are grateful for. At first this might seem almost impossible. But if we examine our lives deeply enough, we can almost always think of at least one thing. Perhaps it was a friend in school or a teacher; maybe a boss or co-worker. Maybe we had some artistic or athletic abilities that we enjoyed or continue to enjoy. Maybe it is broader, such as being thankful for having God in our lives, or just being alive.
3. Create categories of things and people that you are grateful for. Think of family; our parents, spouse or partner, kids and siblings. Think of friends, co-workers. Think of past relationships from different stages and places in your life. Think of the gifts and abilities that you have and the ability to use them to help others. Think of the beauty of nature. Think of things you have accomplished.
4. Now spend time in each of these categories and go into some detail. For instance, you can think of friends in elementary, middle and high school and then college. Think of friends in the different places you have lived and in your neighborhood. Name each of these friends and be specific about why you are grateful for them and the impact they had in your life. Go through this detailed process of being grateful for specific people and specific things in each area of your life; family, work, hobbies and activities.
5. Commit to being grateful on a regular basis. Think of being grateful like you would following a diet or exercise program. Exercising one day a year or even one day a month does not do much good. It needs to be regular, ideally every day. So every day, find time to take at least a few minutes to be grateful. At first this might be difficult. But after a while, like starting a flywheel, it will get easier. You might even find a few minutes turning into thirty minutes or even an hour.
6. Find a place where being grateful is easier. A place that will stimulate your gratitude muscles. It could be a walk in the woods or in the park. It could be in a museum or in the ambience of your favorite coffee shop with all the sights, smells and sounds that you have come to love there.
7. Don’t give up. At first, being grateful may not be easy. Especially amid the devastation of a crucible that may feel almost impossible. But start small and then go from there, and you may well find that your list of what you are grateful grows.
It is easy to be angry and bitter and keep a record of every grievance and every hurt we have. That will not help us to move forward. It will tend to keep us mired in our worst day. That is not what we want. We need to stop ruminating on all the pain and disappointment we have been through, whether that has been caused by others or whether we had a part in it. We need to forgive, and if something needs to be done or said then do that.
But endlessly dwelling on our hurts and grievances is not productive. It will tend to corrode our soul. Remember, bitter and angry people tend to hurt others, often those we love the most. Is that who we want to be?
Let’s be people of gratitude and thankfulness not grievance, anger, envy and bitterness.
Reflection
Stop dwelling on anger and negative emotions. Take time to pray and meditate to clear your mind, your heart and your soul from these thoughts that are pulling you down.
Start thinking of people and things you are grateful for. The list might feel small at first, but dig deep to expand the list as time goes on.
Find a time and a place to be grateful regularly. Be disciplined. Being grateful will get easier the more it becomes a new ingrained habit and discipline.
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
Applying the Actionable Truths 7: Fellow Travelers
People you can trust. Who don’t have hidden agendas. Who are truly on the same page. That’s who you need to look for when you are building a team of fellow travelers, which we discuss this week on the seventh episode of our series within the show on the Beyond the Crucible Roadmap.
How do you find them? As we say here, you can learn a lot from Frodo’s companions in THE LORD OF THE RINGS trilogy.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
So what I realized later, that I didn't focus enough on hiring people who I trusted and had integrity, and I didn't focus enough on making sure there were no hidden agendas and that we're truly on the same page.
Gary Schneeberger:
People you can trust who don't have hidden agendas, who are on the same page truly as you are, that's who you need to look for when building a team of fellow travelers, which is what we discussed this week on the seventh episode of our series within the show on the Beyond the Crucible roadmap.
How do you find them? You can learn a lot from Frodo's companions in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Welcome, friends, to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. And this is an episode that it's been a while, Warwick, since we've done an episode like this, so I'm excited to get back to talking about this. And this is our Beyond the Crucible roadmap where we unpack the actionable truths of the brand. It will level set me and Warwick to talk about it, because it's been a while since we've done it, and we'll explain why.
So this is our refreshed way. It's not entirely new, but it is refreshed. It is laser focused of how we help you get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity. And it's what we've come to call, as I've said, our Beyond the Crucible roadmap. We describe it this way, and I'm going to read directly from the paper I have in front of me here, and that is, "This is how we help people turn their worst day into their greatest opportunity. We provide the essential actionable truths to inspire, hope, enable, and equip them to write their own life affirming story. The roadmap has been built from our proprietary statistically valid research into how people experience crucibles, and what we've learned from our experience and the experiences of our podcast guests for what it takes to turn trial into triumph, what it takes to move beyond those crucibles."
And the most revolutionary news for us in all of this process is that in analyzing the roadmap, we identified what we're calling the actionable truths of the brand. To pass these life-changing truths along to you, our listeners and viewers this year, we have been doing something since the start of the year, another one of these things that we call, The Series Within the Show. So we have been spending 2025, and we're going to continue spending 2025 going through each of these 10 actionable truths, one per month, and exploring ways that they can help you make your way along the roadmap.
So Warwick, it's been a minute, as they say, since we've been here on these actionable truths, and that's because we took some time off from this part of the show to do our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles. But we're back now to finish our exploration of these actionable truths for the rest of 2025. And as I do in every one of these episodes, I want to ask you a couple questions up front. First one is this, to level set us for our discussion, on the seventh of these truths, let me ask you, why actionable truths? Why that phrase? What do we mean by that?
Warwick Fairfax:
So Beyond the Crucible, our focus is on helping people get beyond their worst day, which we often call the bottom of the pit, to a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And so what we have now is what we're calling Beyond the Crucible roadmap, how you go from trial your crucible to triumph for a life of significance. We've found that there are 10 actionable truths that are catalysts in helping you move along the journey from your worst day to where you're living your life-affirming vision. In other words, you're triumphing and living a life of significance.
So it's interesting, these actionable truths have always been implicit in the brand. They're actually chapters in the book, Crucible Leadership. We've now crystallized them as actionable truths that really point the way to going from your worst day to a life and significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And I've never really thought about it as deeply as I have thought about it since we've come back to it now. We call this the Beyond the Crucible roadmap, because it truly is, it's a map that takes you from your crucible to your life of significance. Those are the two ends that we're going to be talking about, two ends of the actionable truths that we're going to be talking about.
But explain, Warwick, to everybody, how these truths, these things that we're going to talk about, how do they help you go from setback to significance? How do they help you along this roadmap that we're talking about?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary, these actionable truths we view as accelerators or enablers to help us go from a crucible or trial to a life of significance or where we're triumphing. And I think you could make the case that without these actionable truths, you cannot go from trial to triumph. You'd be stuck in the pit of despair, your worst day. So you can think of them as fuel or I guess, what is it, nitrous oxide and Fast & Furious.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Yes. Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, you can have the greatest turbocharged car you can imagine, but without fuel it's going nowhere.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so these actionable truths, the fuel, their guideposts, way points, the kind of enablers for you to get out of your pit, your worst day, to where you're feeling like you're really triumphing and living a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
And before we move on to the truth that we're going to talk about today, which is Truth Number Seven, I want to make sure that we give folks a little bit of a refresher course, maybe give ourselves a little bit of a refresher course of where we've been, what have been the paths that we've walked along in this discussion. So this is Truth Number Seven. Can you quickly, for everybody, just run through one through six so we know how we got here, and then we can start talking about where we are now?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So when you're in the pit in your worst day, the first thing is understanding your crucibles. We say that your crucible didn't happen to you, it happened for you. Your worst day is not the end of the story, but the launching point for life giving you story. So it's try to reframe your crucible saying, "Okay, this may have felt like the worst day of my life, but is there some way I can use this crucible to serve me instead of reframing it?"
And as part of that, you go to the next step, which is self-reflection. Reflecting on your crucible can reveal important insights about yourself, your strengths, weaknesses, even vulnerabilities that you can use to forgive yourself, forgive others, and bounce forward. So self-reflection is critical, reflecting on what happened, why did it happen, what mistakes did I make, what can I learn from what happened to me? Self-reflection done right, can be a powerful tool to enable us to move forward. And then we get to the third step, which is authenticity. To move beyond your crucible, you must embrace your authentic self. And it's time to be true to who you really are, not who others want you to be.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's often easy to hide behind a mask of inauthenticity to be who you're not. And so part of having courage to bounce back from your worst day is saying, "I'm going to be who I am. I'm not going to put on a mask. I'm not going to try to be who others want me to be. I'm going to be me." And then another key factor, step number four is faith. Believing in something beyond yourself that serves as the immovable anchor for your soul, no matter what's happening around you. Now, faith may mean different things to different people. For me and indeed for Gary, it's our faith in Christ, but it might be faith in God in a more general sense or some other philosophical construct, but whatever it is, I think we're all people that are grounded in a belief system of some sort.
So you've got to dig down deep and to say to yourself or ask yourself, "What is it that I believe? How do I feel like the world is formed? What do I feel are my deepest, most innermost convictions?" To be able to move forward beyond your crucible, you really got to know what is it you believe. So that step is critical.
And then we get to the next step, step five, character. And we define character as how you live out your faith in the real world. Character is your belief system and action. So it's fine to say you have certain belief systems, but it's not very helpful or meaningful if you don't live them out. None of this will be perfect, but day-to-day on average, how is it that you're living your belief system out? How does it work itself out in your world?
And then the next step, step six, is vision. And we call that a sacred calling that summons you to a mission beyond yourself. No matter what the size of your vision, it has meaning and matters. I'd say pretty much every guest we've had on the podcast are people of vision, and I'd say very often that vision has come out of their worst day. They're crucible. And so when we say that your worst day didn't happen to you, it happened for you, the for is often having a vision to help people that maybe suffered the crucibles you suffered, or maybe to help them avoid what you went through, to learn the lessons, to make lives easier for others.
So vision is also a critical component of moving beyond your crucible, because when you get up in the morning and you're thinking, okay, why am I getting up? As Margie Warrell says, when she talks about courage, she uses this phrase, for the sake of what? Which I think is an incredible phrase.
And so in our construct, I'd say, so to get out of bed in the morning for the sake of what? Why? What's the point? Vision gives you a reason to get out of bed, because I've got people I want to help. I've got a difference I want to make I want to impact the world. So vision is another critical step in moving beyond your crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting, it's funny that I tapped into this idea of it's a roadmap, because what you just ran through, the six steps that we've gone so far, and we're going to go to step seven today, is like being on the highway and you see the road sign on the side of the road that says, "I'm in Kenosha, Wisconsin. I'm driving to Annapolis, Maryland." And it says 987 miles or whatever it is. That's the start. That's your crucible. You got a long way to go.
But as you get closer to your destination on the highway, it gets closer. The miles start coming down. And I think that's what happens as we go through this road map and these actionable truths, each one brings us a little bit closer to our final destination. That's fair, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And life is never easy, but in some sense it does make life easier in that one of the hardest things to deal with is when you have a sense of depression, melancholy, and obviously there's clinical depression, but there's degrees of feeling down. If you feel down in a sense of, what's the point, and there's no hope, it's really hard to keep moving forward. But when you feel like there's hope, you feel like you have a vision, you know what you believe, you're living out what you believe to the best degree possible, then there's a sense of hope, there's a sense of excitement as you get up in the morning.
And as you go to sleep in the evening, you start to feel gratitude. "Gosh, that wasn't an easy day, but it was a good day. I made progress." Even if it was a small baby step, I made progress. Maybe it had a small impact on one person. Maybe it was your spouse, partner, your kids, parents, friends. It's like, "Well, I think I did something right today. Maybe I did a few things wrong, but there was at least something I got right." And it gives you hope to keep moving forward. So yeah, these steps are very helpful. They give you hope. Life's about hope. Hope will fuel you to really get beyond your crucible and to live your best life, to live a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, and speaking of hope and help to live your best life, to get to a life of significance, our actionable truth today that we're going to unpack is fellow travelers. It's a favorite phrase of Warwick's to talk about, and he'll explain why, what they are and why it's a favorite phrase of his, but it's the first step, this step seven, this actionable truth seven is the first step in following out the vision that he talked about from step six, from actionable truth six of vision, the first step in pursuing that vision is in putting together a team of what Warwick has called fellow travelers.
So Warwick, how would you define, for our listeners and viewers, fellow travelers, and why are they critical? Why are they a critical seven step after a crucible to begin the journey of recovering from a crucible? Or I should say not begin, but continue the journey, because now we're getting down the road, to use my analogy, why are they critical, fellow travelers, to overcoming a crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's great to have the elements of a vision, but to fully flesh that vision out, we're going to need help. And we'll also need help to begin to make that vision a reality. So we've coined this phrase for people that come alongside us, fellow travelers, and there are different types. We say that fellow travelers can provide words of encouragement or advice, and that's critical. And there are also fellow travelers that might be members of our team and our organization or mission, irrespective of how big or small that may be in terms of numbers of people.
So bouncing back from our worst to our crucible, it's not easy. And to live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others is also not easy. But one of the decisions we have to make is, do we want help? And often in the days and months after our worst day, when in the pit of despair, we feel like this leper, to coin that biblical phrase. And it's like, "Leave me alone." You're in your room. You're in your apartment or house. People ring the doorbell. You don't answer. They call you. You don't answer. You just don't want to see anybody. You feel so bad about yourself, either because of what you've done or what was done to you. You just feel like you're either not worthy of help or nobody can help you, or, "I'll figure it out myself." There can be a variety of different reactions depending on who we are in the circumstances.
But you've got to make a decision that we all need help. We cannot live life alone. And so we're going to need help in those days and months after the crucible. People who can console us, encourage us, just to help us get out of bed in the morning. And once we begin to have the elements of a vision, we're also going to need help from other people. So it'll be critical in having people to help us frame out the vision. We might have a kernel, an ember of a vision, but other people will help mold that vision into something bigger. And these other fellow travelers, they will probably have gifts and abilities that we don't have that will help make our vision a reality.
So fellow travelers, it's really critical. I think it's hard to believe that you can truly get from your worst day to a life of significance without help, without fellow travelers. Life is not meant to be lived alone. And that is certainly true in terms of getting out of your worst day. You've got to have help, and they come in different forms, whether it's encouraging, consoling, helping you build your vision. You got to be willing to say, "I can't do it all. I do need help." That doesn't make me weak. I'd say the strong person asks for help. The weak person says, "I can do it all and I don't need help." So be the strong, courageous person and say, "I know I can't do it all. I need help." And be willing to let others help, because you may well find there are people who have been dying to help you if only you would let them in, if only you would say yes.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And this is the point in every one of these episodes where I pull out my favorite dictionary, which I call Webster's 1828, the very first dictionary of Noah Webster. And as you might expect, folks, Noah Webster does not have a definition for the phrase, fellow travelers. What he does have in this 1828 dictionary is fellow commoners, fellow prisoners, fellow peers, fellow... There's a lot of fellow things that he has in here. But the one that I think sticks out for me that speaks to this idea of fellow travelers, is fellow helper. That's one of the definitions here.
And it's one who conquers or aids in the same business, one who conquers or aids in the same business. That really seems to speak to what you're talking about, right? You're aiding someone and you're pursuing the same business/vision that they're pursuing, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. We definitely want to succeed in our vision. We want to conquer, but if we're smart, we'll want people to help aid us in the making of that vision, and the making of that vision a reality. We don't get to conquer without help. We do need people to aid us. It's just fundamentally true.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. All right. So now there are three stages in our research, and our research is both qualitative and quantitative. Three stages that our research have shown us people experience in this section of the roadmap. The first one is experimenting with new conditions (trials, and first failures.) So how do fellow travelers work? Help us, as we go through this stage.
Warwick Fairfax:
So we might have the kernel of a vision, but it can be overwhelming to bring that vision a reality, or even just to figure it out. It's like, "Well, I have an idea, but gosh, what does that mean and who would I serve and what does that really look like?" Maybe it's like a painting. You've got a few rough pencil marks on a canvas, and there's a vague idea of what it is, but it's not a fully fleshed out painting with colors and trees and landscape and water, is just a few pencil sketches. So fellow travelers can help us flesh out the vision.
And one of the ways that they help us do that is, you take small tests, small trials, test markers as they say, and product marketing. Because that way you see if it has legs. And you might find, gosh, I was thinking about this year for the vision or maybe this market or this range of people that could be served, but I never thought about these other people or this other way of doing it.
So test marketing or just trialing a vision could be very helpful. Well, we need fellow travelers to both help us flesh out the vision, help us figure out how to trial it. And these small steps and experiments, as I mentioned, they can help refine the vision to one that has a much greater chance of success. So experimenting, being willing to trial with a vision's critical, and you've got to have help doing that. You've got to have people on your team. You might have other companies, other nonprofits who will be happy to help you or partner with you, maybe doing different things. So you've got to be willing to partner with people both within your organization and your team and outside.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. The second area that our research tells us people go through as they're proceeding through the roadmap is growth and new skills hat's preparing for major change. What are the benefits of fellow travelers in this part of the roadmap?
Warwick Fairfax:
So fleshing out our vision is one thing, but we need to know what skills and capabilities we need on our team. And one way of doing that is having fellow travelers that can help us understand what are our skills. Maybe we have skills that we don't recognize.
Maybe we think we have skills in areas that we really don't. Hopefully they can lovelingly tell us, "You're really good at this area that you don't realize and you're not so good at this area that you think you're pretty hot stuff. So sorry about that." A little dose of reality can be helpful.
But secondly, if we're smart, we'll have people around us that will have skills and abilities that we don't have that can compliment us, that will help take the vision to a whole new level. So we need fellow travelers who are objective, who can have skills and abilities that we don't have, and who can really compliment the skills and abilities that we have.
Gary Schneeberger:
So folks, I want you to remember what Warrick has talked about in these first two areas, because later on, here's a teaser alert. I haven't told you what I'm going to talk about yet either, Warrick. I have a pretty good example of a very popular story we all know in which fellow travelers are essential to it. So put a pin in this and we'll come back to that.
The third stage here, Warwick, is preparing for big change. That's also grand trial revelation and insight. Let's talk a little bit about how fellow travelers help us at this part of the roadmap.
Warwick Fairfax:
So as our vision and organization, it grows and expand, the type of help we may need may change. And so we need fellow travelers who can advise us. Okay, maybe we started with a ten-person nonprofit or company, maybe we're now at 100 or 150. So what do we do now? We need advice. And that advice can be internal, it can be external, and it may be that our role within that organization may change.
We may find, depending on the size of the organization, that we need to bring in somebody from the outside to be a general manager or CEO, or maybe just somebody to help with the books, or maybe we're a visionary, but we're not too great about keeping the trains running on time. Somebody that can just perform some executive role of making sure that things get done when they should be done. So there's different levels of help, depending on where you are in the size of your organization. And you might find that if the organization grows to a certain level, that maybe the contribution you're bringing was great, but maybe there's somebody else that could take the vision to the next level. Maybe somebody else needs to be CEO. Maybe somebody else needs to take control of the whole organization, be it nonprofit or for-profit.
You've got to be willing to hand the reins of it, because if the whole idea is to help people, be it for-profit or nonprofit, again, back to what Margie Warrell says, "For the sake of what?" If it's truly about for the sake of impacting the world in some sense, then it should not be about us. You've got to separate your identity from the mission, from the organization. So you've always got to be willing to say, "Well, this isn't about me." And if it's not about me, if somebody else can do a better job, because it's at a level where I can't do it, or maybe other things have come up in life that have impacted your ability to be as involved as you'd like to, you've got to be willing to hand over to other people who maybe they were your fellow travelers and maybe they'll be leading it one day. So yeah, you always need help and you've got to be willing to have your fellow travelers give you advice, and it's not always easy.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting, because when we were developing these, there were some that got close to making the cut for actionable truths, but didn't. And humility is a big one of that. What you're talking about right there is humility. It's critically important to bouncing back from a crucible. It's critically important to walking out your life as significance. It's not technically an actionable truth, but it's absolutely wound in what you just talked about, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, if you want the best and the brightest, if you will, to be your fellow travelers, humility will help. If you're arrogant, "Hey, I know everything. I don't need help." That will pretty much ensure that you won't get the right kind of fellow travelers. What you don't want is people signing up for a paycheck saying, "I'm going to be a yes man, a yes woman. Whatever you want to hear, boss, you tell me." Gosh, what you just said, that vision, that idea, it was just genius. It was just brilliant, fabulous. I mean, I just don't really think you need that. So we want people that will tell us the truth. So humility is critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So I won't say here, that is the most insightful comments you've ever made on the podcast. I won't do that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Thank you.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good. Good. I'm glad. Now we're going to switch, and this is a good time to switch to this part. It's my favorite part of these episodes, folks, and that's where we talk about who I like to call Patient Zero, because he's the founder of Beyond the Crucible, and that's our host, Warwick Fairfax.
And just to talk about Warwick, about how he, in his journey from his setback to his life of significance, how he walked through whatever actionable truth we're talking about, and today that is on fellow travelers. So Warwick, talk a bit then about your experience with fellow travelers, especially during the takeover. The takeover, as we say.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, I think many of you who've been listening and watching the podcast know a bit about my background, but I grew up in a large family media business in Australia. It had newspapers, magazines, TV and radio stations. When I was growing up it was a massive organization, a $700 million 4,000 plus employee company. In 1987 after graduating from Harvard Business School, my father died early that year, and I launched a 2.25 billion takeover at the family company. I felt like the company was straying from the vision of the founder, my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax, and wasn't being well managed.
And so to launch this takeover and then manage the company, I knew I needed help, because when I launched this takeover, believe it or not, I was 26 years old. I made a lot of mistakes, but I wasn't stupid enough to say at 26, "I got this. I don't need any advisors. I know everything about finance and takeover law and managing large companies, and yeah, I'm good." I mean, so sometimes the task is so massive that it's really hard to tell yourself you don't need help.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's even with a degree from Harvard Business School, you still had that realization. So that says something.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, hopefully, I suppose. But unfortunately, I made a lot of mistakes and I didn't bring on the right kind of fellow travelers. So early on, in the months leading after the takeover, we had advice from a blue-chip merchant bank, which is a straight, in English-speak, for investment bank. And they said, "You know what, Warwick, the numbers don't add up. It's too risky. I know you're worried about hostile takeovers from corporate raiders and what have you, but if and when there's a hostile takeover, then gather the family round and it'll be easier."
Well, I didn't want to hear that advice, because it wasn't just, I was afraid of corporate raiders. I just felt like, as I said, the company was straying from the vision of the founder and it wasn't being well-run. So then I basically went to other advisors, I think of the last of the three Indiana Jones movies, at least the first three, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, and Harrison Ford who plays, as we all know, Indiana Jones. He's trying to find the Holy Grail and his dad's injured. And so there's two cups, one's all gold and the other is wooden. And so one cup might heal, his dad has been hurt, and the other cup will kill you basically.
And so if you don't choose well as some old might says, "You have chosen poorly." And if you choose well it says, "You have chosen well." In this case, I chose poorly. And so basically I ended up choosing advisors that had done some very large takeovers, but of questionable ethics, I guess you would say. And I wasn't really focused on that. I was focused on, well, they've done these huge deals. So I really chose poorly. I thought that, well, they're getting a significant fee. If everything goes well, then our interest will align, and they seem to be experts. And I just really made some poor decisions. And I guess really to crystallize it, I guess my biggest mistake was thinking that the most important thing when you hire people, is hire people with expertise.
That doesn't mean hire people who are clueless and who are idiots. I'm not advocating that. But just to say, all I need to do is hire the experts, hire people with expertise, that's the only criteria I need, or even that that's the most important criteria. No. So what I realized later that I didn't focus enough on hiring people who I trusted and had integrity, and I didn't focus enough on making sure there were no hidden agendas and that we're truly on the same page.
The more money, the more that there's a possibility, if not probability, that there could be hidden agendas. Nothing like money and power to motivate people to think in ways that may be not aligned with the organization or aligned with your goals or to have their own things they want to accomplish. That will tend to happen. So the more important that the mission is, to a degree, the bigger it is, but certainly the more important it is, the more impact and notoriety it can have. Then it's always important to work with people you trust and have integrity, but that trust and integrity will be tested severely the bigger the organization is, and certainly the bigger impact it can have. So people's own agendas and temptations can come along.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And here's the great thing about it, Warwick, and I know it's hard after you've gone through that to think there's any great thing about it, but here's the great thing about it, because we talk about this all the time at Beyond the Crucible, and that is, what happened there did not happen to you. You realized it happened for you. And the next question I want to ask you is,
What's your experience been with fellow travelers since then, especially with Beyond the Crucible? And I think what you're going to describe is, you learned some lessons from the first round of fellow travelers, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed. So after we had to file for bankruptcy three years later in 1990, I moved to the U.S. where my wife is from, and I was not in a good place. I was not clinically depressed, but I was like, "How could I been so dumb? I had a Harvard MBA." So what I didn't mention is that I graduated from Oxford University, and then did three years on Wall Street before I got my MBA from Harvard Business School. And I was just merciless with myself. I was like, "Gosh, I'm meant to be somewhat intelligent, how could I been so dumb? How could I made so many bad decisions and false assumptions like other members of my family who are involved in the family business that they wouldn't sell out into a takeover to a privatized company, controlled by me, who was 26." I mean, just a cataclysmically poor decision, using the wrong advisors.
So I was merciless with myself. My go-to psyche is, when things go wrong, I tend to blame myself, not other people. That was not an easy period in my life. I did have my wife, obviously the ultimate fellow traveler, wife, husband, or spouse. She was very helpful. It wasn't easy to help me in those days. I did have people of faith who came alongside me and prayed for me and tried to help. And gradually, I did move forward and I did begin to find the right kind of fellow travelers, and I found them in different places and different stages of my journey back from my worst day to ultimately getting beyond my crucible to living a life of significance. So in 2003, I began my journey to becoming a Certified International Coach Federation coach. I had fellow travelers who came alongside me in that journey, including a mentor coach, which is best practice as you're trying to figure out what it means to be a coach, how to do it well, have a coaching business.
Then I became a board member at my kid's school, a Christian school, Annapolis Area Christian School. And there were really great board members, and I became great friends with many of them, including the board president. And that was wonderful to lock arms together and really helping Annapolis Area Christian School prosper and move forward. And I also became an elder at my church, an evangelical non-denominational church area community church. And that's been an incredible joy as we try to serve people in Annapolis, Maryland, as well as around the world we have global partners all over the world, which is just incredible what the church has done. In both those organizations, Annapolis Area Christian School and Berry Community Church, I've been able to lock arms with fellow travelers who have a common heart and a common vision, who have expertise, but they have integrity. I trust them.
It's been an incredible joy. And now with Beyond the Crucible, I have a great team. They definitely have expertise, but they have more than expertise. They're a great team of fellow travelers. First of all, I trust them. They have integrity. They don't tell me what I want to hear. They tell me what they believe is true and what I don't always want to hear. It's not just, "Oh, yes, Warwick, that was great. And so, "Gee, Warwick, tell me what advice you want me to tell you, and I will tell you that. It just helps me to have the script in advance. You just tell me what you want me to say, and I'll say it to you," you know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
They're not like that, and they definitely don't have the skills and the abilities that I don't have. And what I find is an incredible blessing is that they're 100% committed to the vision of Beyond the Crucible.
What's amazing is, this whole podcast and blog and everything we do at Beyond the Crucible, it grew out of a book I wrote in 2022, I believe, Crucible Leadership. And the team we have is 100% committed to that vision. It grew out of that book and my life experience with growing up within a large family media business and finding my way back. So it's just amazing that they're really 100% committed to it. So I feel like it's not just my vision, I truly believe it's our vision. And I think that the team that we have, they feel the same way. It's incredible.
So having people on the team that I trust and have integrity that have different skills, they'll speak their truth and not always what I want to hear. I mean, it's a very, very different group of fellow travelers than before. I'm not thinking about, "Oh, I wonder what hidden agendas they have."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
I never think that, because to my knowledge, they don't have hidden agendas. I've seen no indications of it. They're all about what can we do to help Beyond the Crucible flourish, and help more people get beyond their worst day to lead lives of significance. They're all about that, which is an incredible blessing.
Gary Schneeberger:
Talking about the right kind of fellow travelers as you just did, got me thinking about something that we talk about at least every summer here on the show, and that's movies. And what is a great, I mean, it's a platinum example of finding the right fellow travelers and the value of them, and I'm just going to run through it quickly. It's The Lord of the Rings trilogy is all about fellow travelers. I'm going to give you just a few examples of what that looks like. So in the Fellowship of the Ring at the Council of Elrond in Rivendell, Frodo bravely volunteers to take the one ring to Mordor. Gandalf immediately steps forward and places a hand on Frodo's shoulder and says this, "I will help you bear this burden, Frodo Baggins, as long as it is yours to bear." That's a fellow traveler.
Here's another one from the same film series. It's also at the Council of Elrond in Rivendell. And after Frodo agrees to carry the ring, Aragorn stands and pledges himself to Frodo's protection. He says this, "If by life or death I can protect you, I will. You have my sword." It gives me chills to read stuff like that about fellow travelers.
Here's just one more of Frodo's fellow travelers, and that's Samwise Gamgee, his buddy who's with him throughout the whole series of films, all three films. In the Fellowship of the Ring, at the end of the Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo tries to depart without his fellow travelers to go alone across a river, because he's just worried about the power of the ring, corrupting his friends. Despite not being able to swim, Sam wades in after Frodo's boat and nearly drowns. And this is what he says to Sam after he gets there to talk to him, "I made a promise, Mr. Frodo, a promise. 'Don't you leave him, Samwise Gamgee.' And I don't mean to. I don't mean to."
I can't think of a better example in the fictional realm of fellow travelers all throughout all three films in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's such a good example. I mean, if ever there's somebody that needs help, it's Frodo. He's a hobbit. He's not of large stature. He is not particularly strong. He is the least likely to be a hero in some adventure, but he has a true heart, which is really his super power. And to have Gandalf, Aragorn, and Samwise wanting to be his fellow travelers, is amazing. They see something in him, just his heart, the purity of his heart, and they all want to help him.
And there's no way that Frodo could have accomplished what he did without help. You need fellow travelers. They clearly had skills that he did not have, and he had things that they didn't have. He had this purity of heart. None of the others could be anywhere close to the ring, because it would just corrupt their souls. And they recognize that. So each of them had a role to play. But it's a great example of we need fellow travelers. Frodo did, and we do too.
Gary Schneeberger:
Indeed. We've covered a lot of ground here, Warwick. As I always do at the end of these episodes on the Actionable Truths, what's the one key takeaway that you'd like to leave listeners and viewers with as we wrap this episode today?
Warwick Fairfax:
So in picking fellow travelers, expertise can be overrated. Doesn't mean it's not important, but when you pick fellow travelers, that should not be the first thing you're thinking of. And that sounds very counterintuitive. Surely the first thing you should be thinking of is, okay, what do they have to offer? What's their expertise? No. The first thing you should be thinking of is, can I trust them? Do they have integrity? Are they going to tell me what I want to hear, or what I need to hear? Where can I see evidence in their lives and their past organizations and their family with their kids, however it works. Where can I see evidence that I can trust them, that they have integrity? That's absolutely critical.
And of course, you want people who are experts in their field, and you want to make sure that they have skills and abilities that you don't have, and you absolutely want them to be 100% committed to the vision, that's critical. But picking the right fellow travelers, it all starts with trust. Can you trust them? Do they have integrity?
Gary Schneeberger:
I don't say it often in these episodes, but I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word's been spoken at a subject, and our host, Warwick Fairfax, just spoke it. This is, folks, the seventh actionable truth we will be discussing in depth this year.
Each month we'll take a look at a new one and how it is connected to the previous one, to build out the roadmap. And next time we will be discussing, come on, let's have a drum roll, Scott. Thank you. We'll be discussing perseverance.
So until the next time we're together, folks, please remember this; we want you to believe these truths that we talk about, but we also want you to act on them, because that's what's going to help you along the roadmap from trial to triumph. We'll see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
She Lost Millions and Found Her True Calling: Amy Shippy
Broken and shattered. These are familiar emotions after a crucible — especially one that forces you to start over after losing a multi-million-dollar business.
But start over is exactly what our guest this, week, Amy Shippy did — and continues to do. She’s started four new businesses, including the one she says is her true calling to a life of significance — Lady Biz Wiz — where she helps female entrepreneurs tackle the unique challenges professional women face.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Amy Shippy:
When we lost our furniture business during the recession in 2012, I guess is when we ended up losing the business, we had held on for quite a while, hoping the recession was going to end, and it didn't. I remember at that point being very angry. I was angry it had failed. We were very successful. We had three children when it failed, versus when we started, we had none. We were dating. And I remember being very angry and I remember just feeling broken. I felt so utterly shattered.
Gary Schneeberger:
Broken and shattered...familiar emotions after a crucible, especially one that forces you to start over after losing a multi-million dollar business. But start over is exactly what our guest this week, Amy Shippy, did and continues to do. She started four new businesses, including the one she says in her true calling to a life of significance, Lady BizWiz, where she helps female entrepeneurs tackel the unique challenges professional women face.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Amy, it's so wonderful to have you on the podcast. I love learning a bit about you and all of the things you've got going on. You've got the Lady BizWiz coaching, mentoring, consulting businesses, as well as a book that you wrote, The Lady Biz Quick Launch Guidebook: Taking Your Business from Concept to Market. Great idea. But you also are an entrepreneur, so you've got several businesses, which we'll get into. Lottiebelle's, Blue Poppy Designs, and Marche de Macarons, something?
Amy Shippy:
Perfect, yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
I did do a bit of French-
Amy Shippy:
You passed.
Warwick Fairfax:
... many moons ago in high school.
Which is wonderful, but before we get to that, I'd love to hear a bit about the backstory because you've been an entrepreneur probably your whole life. I think I read somewhere you grew up in Hilton Head but live in Savannah, so talk a bit about growing up. And were there seeds of that entrepreneurial spirit as you were growing up that led to who you are?
Amy Shippy:
Yeah, so I have been an entrepreneur my entire life. I grew up with entrepreneur parents and entrepreneur grandparents, so I would say that I'm a third-generation entrepreneur. I remember talking to my mom when I was about 12 years old to help me get together a lemonade stand that I could sell lemonade on the golf course in Palmetto Dunes.
Entrepreneurship is just something I've always done. I started my first real business, I would say, at 21 years old and went from there. And for the past 30-plus years, I have been basically an entrepreneur. So, I love creating something from nothing, which I think is really the defining definition of being an entrepreneur. You have an idea, and then how do you pull all the parts and pieces together to get something launched? Which really becomes the inspiration of my book that we talked about.
But Hilton Head is, especially in the '80s, I'm going to date myself pretty easily, so the '70s and '80s, Hilton Head was a very small, mainly tourist-driven island. And so you got to meet a new group of people every week as they came in. And so I think that really honed a lot of the entrepreneurial spirit of being able just to talk to strangers, get to know people. My mom said I was the welcome wagon at five years old walking down the Hilton Head Beach and would greet every person on a towel and welcome them to the island, so I guess my whole life I've been a person who likes to engage with people. And that is part of, I think, a lot of what has made me successful as an entrepreneur.
Warwick Fairfax:
What's interesting is some people grow up in families in which get a safe job. Many decades ago, IBM or whatever it was, General Electric gets one job, never leave. And if the kid said, "I'm thinking about starting a business," they say, "Don't. It could fail." So, a lot of people are told, "Don't even think about it." But yet I'm sensing in your family, you didn't get that message. It was like, it feels like entrepreneurial spirit was encouraged, because in many families, it's try to scratch it out of you and, "Be sane. Don't be a risk-taker because risky is not safe." So, it sounds like you grew up in a very supportive environment in some ways.
Amy Shippy:
I do really truly feel that way. And it is, entrepreneurship is very risk-based. If you are very risk-averse, entrepreneurship is going to obviously be a hard peg to put into a square hole type of thing. But because my grandfather on my mom's side, my grandfather on my dad's side, my dad and my mom and my stepdad were all entrepreneurs, it was just always something that I watched people do that. So, it did not feel very risky. Did my parents always think every idea I had for a business was great? Well, they might poke holes. And they did.
My parents poke holes in everything I do, so don't get the idea that they're like, "Great, just go for it." They would really put me a little bit through the wringer to make sure I had thought out the process, which I think is really, really important in the entrepreneurial path, is that you have somebody that's just not telling you, "Go for it," but really, with a discerning idea, wants you to look at that concept from multiple facets because that's not traditionally what it is.
And then I met my boyfriend, who became my husband. We've been married for 26 years. And he did not really come from an entrepreneurial background at all. His parents were both school teachers, but he had this entrepreneurial spirit as well. And so he's always super supportive of everything that I've done, and so we've been in many businesses together.
I had a lot of, I guess, affirmation and a lot of encouragement, and always have in being an entrepreneur. Not that they always thought it was great. When we went into our furniture business, my dad still ran credit cards on a machine and took his deposits up to the bank, and he's like, "This World Wide Web thing is not going to go, Amy. That's just got to be a flash in the pan. I don't know what you mean taking credit cards over the phone. This is not going to work out." And he was wrong. But anyway, it stuck around.
Warwick Fairfax:
That is so wonderful.
Talk about that first business, FurnitureBiz.com, because it was very successful, but yet it was challenging. That feels like a lot of what you do now comes out of the lessons learned and that experience, so talk about that journey. How did you found it? What made you think of doing that?
Amy Shippy:
So, it was really my second business. My husband, like I said, he was my boyfriend at the time, and my father had a furniture business in Alabama, so furniture was in a space that he really did understand outside of the whole World Wide Web thing, which he didn't quite get at all. He really understood furniture. And I had worked at a furniture business right out of college selling sofas. That business had come up for sale. I was going to buy it, and then at the 11th hour, he ended up selling it to somebody else.
And then my husband, like I said, my boyfriend at the time, he was working at Havertys Furniture and we were truly on our way to where my dad had a vacation home in Florida and we had about eight hours drive. And Rob said, he goes, "Amy," he goes, "I like the furniture idea. Your dad will get behind that. From a financing standpoint, he'll help guarantee some of the funds for that." Because he had already told me that he was going to guarantee the funds for the furniture business I ended up not buying. And that eliminated an obstacle because I didn't have to really sell my dad on a concept that he wasn't really familiar with.
And my husband's like, "This ready-to-assemble furniture, it sells really great at Havertys." It's not really what Havertys sells, which is where he was working at the time, but they had another section that sold it. He's like, "I think we could build a whole business out of selling ready-to-assemble furniture." And so we talked it through on the eight-hour drive, and when we got down there, we pitched it to my dad, and he's like, "I like that idea."
And I was actually... One of the only two jobs I've ever had that have not been entrepreneurial at that time was working at Gulfstream Aerospace as a data analyst in engineering, and it was a pretty nice little job. And we got back from that and my dad's like, "I think that's great." And a month later, I went to the bank and they wrote me a check. And I never thought funding could be so easy. And my dad's like, "Yeah, funding's only easy because it's on me if you fail. And you're coming to Alabama to work in my furniture store if you don't make it." And so huge incentive to make it work.
And so we took $50,000 and bought a bunch of ready-to-assemble furniture and hired actually a church youth group that was trying to raise money for a big mission trip they were going on. And so we had all these high school kids come in and assemble all of this furniture for us, and it helped fund 18 kids to go on this mission trip from what we paid them. And really, 30 days later, we were in the furniture business with the store.
And it was ups and downs, as all businesses do. And the fact that, like I said, he was my boyfriend at the time, there were those obstacles to overcome, and how did that work being my business? Because my dad had guaranteed it. We weren't married, and what did that look like? And then working with your significant other is not always the easiest thing to do. But really, we started as a furniture store. It was a brick and mortar furniture store. It was 1997 when we started, and so the internet was really, really brand new. Amazon was coming online around that time. We really were not thinking about an internet business, but within a year, we did. It was a lot of work, but a lot of fun. I love the idea of working hard but seeing that payoff.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's interesting to hear you talk, Amy, about having all the ups and downs because you said something that you've had all the ups and downs, but you said you've recovered from both. It's an interesting perspective because at Beyond the Crucible, we talk all the time about recovering from crucibles, but it's true, you can be successful, and there's a little bit of recovery you have to do from that too, right?
Amy Shippy:
There is. When we launched our furniture business during the recession in 2012, I guess is when we ended up losing the business, we had held on for quite a while, hoping the recession was going to end, and it didn't. And I remember at that point being very angry. I was angry it had failed. We were very successful. We had three children when it failed, versus when we started, we had none. We were dating. And I remember being very angry and I remember just feeling broken. I felt so utterly shattered.
And I remember I actually... Oddly enough, and I really do believe this was totally predestined and really how you don't always have to overcome obstacles by yourself. These were obstacles that were overcome, and healing is not always something that happens because I wanted to be healed, because I always don't know where that healing is going to come from. But about six months before our business failed, my in-laws had actually gone to a retreat. And it was a retreat that my husband and I had been invited on several times over the past probably six or seven years. We had always declined it because I was having a baby or it was just really not an opportune time to go.
My in-laws were really adamant when they got back, and so they actually signed us up for this retreat and paid for it and everything. They're like, "You're going. There's no choice." And our business goes out of business in August and the retreat is actually early October. And I spent most of September, to be honest with you, in the bed. I was just shattered. I was as shattered as you could be. And my husband went the previous weekend, and then I went. And I'm like, "Okay, well, I can go along to get along. They paid for it. I'll go and do my thing."
As you mentioned, I do have a background in religion and I'm very faith-based, but at this point, I was really not having much of it. And I'm there and I remember, and there was a moment that I think the Lord spoke to me and I said, "I'm not interested, really not interested in what You have to say. You have shattered me. I don't have any interest. I'm hurt, I'm broken. I don't know what to do." And there was a moment in that conversation as I'm arguing, I'm arguing, I'm literally arguing with the Lord, and I said, "I don't know what to do. You have thrown me and shattered me as far as the east is from the west, and I don't know how to put myself back together." And He said to my soul, He goes, "But I do. I know how to put you back together." And I said, "I don't believe you. I really don't believe you. It doesn't feel like you've got my best interest at heart." And He goes, "But I know the plans I have." And I'm like, "Yeah, great. Go sell that to somebody else."
And there was that moment in that conversation of me being really defiant and not wanting to listen that He said, "If you will just lay your crown back at my feet, I will take care of this." And it was so overwhelming to me that the next day I was at lunch, and still at this retreat thing that I'm going through the motions, and a gentleman sits next to me. And it's really a fully women's retreat, except for four men that are there as the spiritual leaders. And I'm sitting at this table and this gentleman sits next to me and he says, "Tell me your story." And I'm like, "I don't have any story to tell. I'm just here. My mother-in-law bought this and I'm here." And he is like, "Well, I think you have a story because I've been watching your answers. You have more knowledge. Tell me your story."
I'm like, "I really, dude, have no story. Thank you for sitting next to me. I'm sorry, I'm probably not the best. I'm just not in a good place." And he says, "Well, let me tell you my story." And he proceeds to tell me a story, and he turns out to be the chaplain of a hospital in Savannah. And he says, "I would love you to come and volunteer as a chaplain." And I'm like, "Well, okay, great." I'm going to go home from this, we all say things at retreats. I don't know. I'm like, "Not really interested, but thank you so much." And he says, "No, here's my card. I want you to come." It took me about two weeks when I got back from that retreat. And it was uplifting, but your world goes back to the world when you get home. Nothing had really changed.
And so two weeks I drive around in my car and the Lord keeps saying, "Make the call, Amy. Make the call." I'm not interested? Really? What if it was just platitudes? Really couldn't take any rejection right now. And He says, "Make the call." And I made the call and he says, "What's taken you so long? It's taken you two weeks. We've been waiting for your call." And three days later, I started as a chaplain. And what I got to see in that time is I had this obstacle, this brokenness, and it was real. It was a real true brokenness as anybody suffering brokenness has. It's a real brokenness. And it really doesn't matter if that brokenness is financial or that brokenness is in death or loss of a loved one. Loss is loss and brokenness is brokenness.
And I started volunteering at the hospital. It was a job I had. I had no job. I had nothing. And I got to sit with people facing other obstacles that were much more unrecoverable than mine, because I sat there when they turned life support off on loved ones. And those are not recoverable. Those people have gone and they're not coming back. And I got to see over the eight months that I did that, the obstacle that I had, which was a real loss, was an obstacle that I believed that I could overcome. And so what it showed me is that obstacles happen and recovery is necessary. And for me, submitting was necessary.
But when I got on the other side and opened my macaron business, which was nine months later from the time that I lost my business I opened my macaron business, it wasn't a long time, that what He said was true. "I'll put you back together." And He put me back together one patient at a time in a hospital while I sat in the gap of some really devastating losses. And it was an honor to sit in that gap. And a lot of that gap was built in silence. There were no words. There are no words that will help people in pain a lot of times. But what it showed me is that I wasn't a one-trick pony in the business world. The things that were part of me generationally or who I was didn't die with that business. It was there for me to take and grab ahold of if I was willing to take the risk again.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Amy, talk a bit about that brokenness because that whole Furniture Biz, it seems like it's a great idea and you've got Ikea and a whole bunch of others now that are ready-to-assemble furniture and they look pretty good. And certainly back in the day, I've assembled a lot of Ikea and some other things, as we all have. So, it sounds like there was maybe frustration, maybe anger, so talk a bit about that brokenness. I don't know if there was identity wrapped in there, but before we talk about how you came back from it and maybe how the Lord helped heal you, put you back together again, talk a bit about that brokenness and why you felt... Anybody's going to feel bad if a business fails, but everybody's different. Why was it so bad for you? Or what are the elements of brokenness that you felt you had to deal with?
Amy Shippy:
Well, there was a lot of pride in that. We had started this business with $50,000 and we had grown it to about $14 million a year in sales. I was a multimillionaire by the time I turned 30. There was a lifestyle that we had built. We had plans that we were raising our children with these ideas and these resources. And I took a lot of pride in what we did. I took a lot of pride in our success. There was a lot of pride about that.
And so to a lot of degree, I identified a lot with the business. And when the recession came, I had actually been staying at home for a number of years. Like I said, I had three children. And so my husband really ran the day-to-day business and I oversaw the finances and oversaw the trends and things like that. And then when my husband said, "The recession is hitting us. You need to come back and you need to put your brain behind this and see if you can save this." And so I went back to work, and I did it for two years and I lost about 40 pounds in the process. I felt like I lost half my hair. Just the stress of it all. I was up at 4:00 in the morning.
And so I had fought. I had fought for two years, and I would think that I was going to get on the other side of it. I remember thinking at the time that if I ever do write a book about this, and I do feel like that one day will happen, it's called Holding My Breath. I felt like I would be pushed under and I would be held there until I was about out of oxygen and I would just have enough reprieve, like I was going to fix this, to get a big gulp of oxygen only to be shoved back down again. And furniture was just very much tied to lending and housing. And people weren't moving. They weren't opening offices. So, those are a lot of what we saw, and so it just wasn't going away.
So, I was beat up pretty good by the time that I said I couldn't fix it. And I remember my husband walking in the bedroom about three weeks and he's like, "You've had three weeks. Get over this. We've got to get back into it. You've got children. We've got a world. You're done. You've had enough time to sulk about it." And I didn't feel like there was enough time. I didn't think it was quite enough time.
But in the end, I think when you are suffering with brokenness or devastation or these things that cause you pain, I do think, at least for me, it was helpful to have a spouse that said, "You know what? We're not being defined by this. You're not going to be defined anymore by your successes, and you're going to be defined by your failures, Amy. You're defined by who you are intrinsically you, and you're going to have successes and you're going to have failures, but if we measure who you are based on either of those things, then I think you're really limiting who you are."
Warwick Fairfax:
What was some of those key early lessons in which you rewired your brain and psyche to think differently next time you're going to launch a business?
Amy Shippy:
I really can't really give myself credit for rewiring anything. I think when I had that moment where I was just defying God, I just was truly just saying no. I have a degree in religion, so I know all of the things. And that's what He kept saying to me. He goes, "You know all the things. You know all the words. You could quote them back to me." And He goes, "They're all in your head." He goes, "But somehow they're just not in your heart anymore." And I said, "I get it." I really was utterly argumentative and was equally mad at him, if not more mad at him than anybody else. I felt like he had...
And so I tried to bargain. I did. I did a bargaining plan with him and I said, "God," I said, "I'll believe You if You'll light the path and give me stadium lighting with all... So I see that there's no bumps in the road. And if You'll do all of this for me, I will do what You're asking." And He's like, "I'm not going to." He goes, "I'll give you a light before the next step." He goes, "I'll let you know that the next step is solid." He goes, "But I'm not going to do that." And I'm like, "But that's not what I'm asking." He said, "But I'm not doing that." He goes, "But I will fix it." And it's not fixed. I really wish He'd fix it in the same success that I'd had prior. It's been a much slower build. I make a good living out of what I do. It's not the living that I made before. But He was true.
And so what I really learned was I like having all the answers. I do. But I don't. And I sometimes just have to trust Him that the process is going to be the process. And I've been equipped with the skills and knowledge that I have, and if I just sometimes let the process do, it works out. And so when I'm having a bad day, and I still have days that I don't... I'm busy, and 90% feels like it falls my way. I'm going, it's like 90% falls in line, and then 10% doesn't. And sometimes that 10% doesn't, and I get in my car and I talk about this with a lot of women business owners, I said, "I get in my car and I cry." And I'm not a crier. If I start crying in front of my husband, he's going to buy me flowers. It's really [inaudible 00:24:53]. He's like, "I don't know what to do with you. You don't cry, so what's going on?" He gets very scared.
And I said, "Well, I don't cry. I don't cry really in front of people." And I said, "But sometimes I cry, and I get in my car and I drive and cry and drive and cry and drive and cry." And then eventually, I get to the end of that road of how many tears I can shed, and then I turn the car around. And when I turn the car around, it's time to get back to business. And so what I tell myself all the way back, depending on how long I've driven, all the way back, I tell myself, "You know what, Amy? You hit it pretty much 90% of the time. That's a good average. You win more than you lose." And I reaffirm myself on the way back that says, "You know what? You have this. You've gone down failure, you've survived it, you've reinvented. You've got this."
But I also very much am a strategic planner. So, for my business, I set goals usually from mid-December to mid-January. I go through my goals for the next year. I set yearly goals and I break that down. And when I work with women in business or really anyone in business, I do talk about setting very achievable goals because I believe if you set a goals that you can achieve in quick succession, it creates a dopamine drop that keeps you building a momentum. And that momentum does take you through.
So, I'm not that ethereal. I really do have... And I keep them on my phone. My cell phone, in the notes I have, "I want to make X amount of dollars. How many tumblers is that? How much is that going to make me? How many do I need to do?" So, I'm really very, very strategic about that because I'm really, at the end of the day as a business person, I want to make a profit. I'm very, very intentional. And when something doesn't work, I think we can blame a lot of people for a lot of things, but I don't think we have real change until we look in the mirror and see what we added to the pot that created what we create.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, that's so well said. Talk a bit about how that's led you to do what you do now. And you have a lot of interesting businesses, Lottiebelle's, Blue Poppy Designs, Marche de Macarons. And maybe one of the things that's really on your heart is working with women in business, Lady BizWiz. How did that all end up there? Because it seems like you have so many lessons, life lessons that yet you've got to do the blocking and tackling of goals and metrics and numbers, as we do at Beyond the Crucible, but then not tie your identity to what you do because inevitably there'll be obstacles you couldn't possibly have foreseen. And maybe-
Amy Shippy:
There are.
Warwick Fairfax:
... there'll be obstacles you should have seen and didn't. Maybe that's the 10%, is like, man, how could I have missed that one? I guess I must've been asleep that day. So, stuff's going to happen.
Amy Shippy:
Stuff always happens. To answer that question, I'm very fortunate that I have a group of women entrepreneurs that I will go to. If this is a problem I can't solve it, I don't know why I can't solve it, and I'll call. And they're like, "Well, have you thought about it this way?" And I'm like, "Nope, never thought about it that way." And I'm like, "But that's all a really good way to think about it."
Sometimes you just can't see the forest through the trees. That saying is true because you're so ground in to what you want to do and how you saw it happening. So, that, I think, is what has inspired my passion to working with women in business is because they want to be at the five-year mark in their business image-wise, branding, look, feel, sales, but they don't want to go through month one. They want to get to year five. And I'm like, "Do you know how many times I've changed my logo over the years? Do you know how many times I've changed my packaging over the years?" I couldn't afford the packaging I have now when I first started. I wanted to make a profit and I didn't want to have a lot of debt. When you look at me in the five-year market, that is not what it looked like at the one-month mark.
And so people get hung up on this vision that they want to have, and I'm like, "Well, let's make it the vision of actually becoming profitable. So, let's look at what your startup costs are. How many of your widget do we need to sell till you break even? And then how many of those widgets do we need to sell a month broken down by the week so your business funds sell?" And I said, "And maybe we can't afford the marketing that we want right now, but what are some marketing options that we can do that are free? And you can't afford the packaging that you eventually want, but what can we package in now that gets you off to the races?"
I do have multiple businesses. They were not started at the same time. That's the other thing people think, they're like, "Well, you just started three businesses." And I'm like, "No, I didn't have triplets." No. I said, "I waited for each one to be potty-trained before I got to the next one." I have triplets. My husband will take me on vacation for a week and I'll come up with five businesses, and then that's how I am. Most of those do not come to fruition, but I love business ideas and breaking it down and solving the puzzle.
But the macarons came out of my time as a chaplain. I was working as a chaplain. I thought I was actually going to go back and apply to get my Masters of Divinity, and I really felt like the Lord was calling me to be a chaplain. I was like, okay, well, here You are. You destroyed me, put me back together again, and I'm going to be a chaplain. Because it was just an amazing opportunity and I felt so successful at doing it. I don't know if that's even a right word to use with chaplaincy, but I felt like it was just so intrinsically part of who I was to be able to sit in this gap with people. And so I really thought that's what I was going to do. Yay, I'm not going to be an entrepreneur anymore. I'm going to go get a job and I'm going to go be a chaplain.
And six months into that, my best friend wanted to do a cookie swap party, and she's like, "What cookie are you going to make?" I'm like, "I don't know." I'm like, "I think I'll do this." And then truly three days before the event, I hadn't made any of the cookies. I decided to make French macarons because I found them on a food blog and whipped up, didn't really know that you really can't whip up macarons, but I did. I whipped up 200 of them. Didn't know that was challenging. I now have failed every which way possible to making macarons, but my first 200 French macarons turned out beautifully. Didn't know that there was any trouble in making them, and there's all kinds of problems in making them. And everybody at this cookie swap party wanted to know about these silly little cookies. And the irony is, I don't even think I had one. I don't actually eat sweets. I have no sweet tooth really whatsoever.
But 90 days later, my best friend's, like, "I think we could do a cookie business." 90 days later, we were in the cookie business. With $800. We started that whole business with $800. And we found there was just some, I think, divine opportunities that opened up. And that's another thing I talk about with women and really anybody, not necessarily just in business, but overall, is are you looking for opportunities? You would be amazed on how many opportunities present themselves that you're not even aware of them being an opportunity because you're scared to say yes to an opportunity.
And so this opportunity came up and we opened the business. And I took that $800, and inside of three years, we were at $350,000 in sales, which is a lot of $2 cookies. That's a lot of cookies. And it just reaffirmed that the knowledge and the skills that I had were not built around that business that had failed. They still were with me. I think if you're a writer, which I'm not, I think if you're a writer and you have a book that doesn't do well, it doesn't mean that you're not a great writer. It just maybe means that it just wasn't the right timing for the book or whatever. So, if you're good at something and you feel passionate about it, I think you should go for it, even if it doesn't work out exactly the way you thought it was.
But yeah, the business, I think at the end, God shared with me that I'm an entrepreneur. That is my DNA. It is so intrinsically who I am that to go to not do what I do and what I love would've made me not as happy long-term. But I will forever be thankful for that season of sitting at that hospital and having the opportunity. It healed me. I tell people, I said, "I got healed in a hospital, but I wasn't sick, not with cancer or anything else. I was sick in my soul. I was in this time of brokenness." And it was in that hospital that God Himself, the great physician that He is, healed me back together. So, I do tell people, I said, "I got healed in a hospital, but I wasn't sick in the traditional way."
Warwick Fairfax:
So, what's interesting to me is you have these businesses that you found and do, but you're not just a business owner. You're also a coach, a consultant, an advocate for women entrepreneurs in particular. That feels a little different in the sense that you feel a calling to help other business owners, particularly women. How did that come about? Because you could have just kept founding businesses and that's who you are, but it feels different. It feels like there's a particular calling here.
Amy Shippy:
It is, and it's actually the desire of my heart. The desire of my heart is actually to scale my two businesses that I own into an exit strategy in the next few years and do Lady BizWiz for the rest of my life. I feel very passionately about business, obviously. And a lot of people who do consulting come out of the corporate world where they've worked in corporations and then they're like, "Well, I've worked in corporations I know." And I'm like, "Well, I've never worked in a big corporation. I build corporations, and so I can tell you exactly what it is."
But what I find particular about working with women in business is... Actually, I was talking with a lady. I'll give this as a great example. It's not my example. It's another lady's example. And she said, so she goes, "Here's the difference between men and women." She goes, "Men can look at a job posting and they can fill in 50% of the qualifications. They're like, 'I'm good for that job,' and they'll apply for it. Women can look at the same posting, and if they don't hit 100% of the qualifications, a woman is not going to apply for that job."
As women, we want to be 100% qualified. And it's just a mentality. It's not a right or wrong mentality. It's just the way that men and women look at obstacles and opportunities. And then women in particular take things a lot more personal than men do. So, when I have a thing that didn't go my way, I'll talk to my husband about it, he's like, "You're just taking it too personal." Now, that usually starts an argument in our household because I'm like, "Well, just hear me out." As husbands, it's not the best thing to say to your wife. It's not like my husband tells me to calm down. That also doesn't work, but-
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, do not say that, no.
Amy Shippy:
Do not say that. But women do take things personally because we do take a miss as a personal failure. Women, especially in this day and age, do feel like we've got to be it all. We've got to be in the marketplace, we've got to be in the household, we've got to be in the parental role. And so that's a lot of pressure on women.
And so when I speak to women entrepreneurs especially, which is what has really driven the passion behind it, is I'm like, "Yeah, you really don't need to have 100% of the skills. We can develop some of those skills." And I said, "Really, maybe 100% of those skills are not even needed in the business idea that you have. Maybe only 60% of them." But unless you get off the bench and into the game, all you can do is talk about it. And if you really are serious about a business and I think it's a valid idea... If I think it's a valid. If I don't, I will tell them. I will say, "I don't think you've really thought about this that well." Or, "My marketing strategy was going to post it on Facebook." I'm like, "Not really a great marketing strategy. You're not going to get a lot of... Unless you got a huge following, it's not really that effective of a strategy."
But what I can also tell women is, "That doesn't mean anything. We can talk about strategies that will work. What are you good at? What are you not good at? Are you a people person? Are you not a people person?" All these things can run successful businesses, but how can we leverage your business with your personality style to get you off the bench and get you into the game of being an entrepreneur basically at step A? We can talk about five-year goal, but if we can't get through one-month goal, six-month goals, and one-year goals, we never get to five-year goals. So, what can we set here that does not require... Don't typically recommend, most people I work with, to take out large amounts of loans. That's just an albatross. Those banks want that money back, whether your idea takes off or not. So, how can we scale this small to get you into the marketplace? How can we look at your margin? And things like that.
I started working with SCORE, which is a nonprofit mentoring nationwide program, I think it's a fabulous program, several years ago. And as much as I love what it does, it was all free mentoring. And what I found is when things were free for people, there wasn't always an intrinsic sweat equity value to it because it was free, so it cost them nothing whether to take the advice or not take the advice. But I did talk to... And 68% of their clients were female business owners. And actually, I think 73% of them were minority business owners. And there's a big need for minority and women business owners to make it in the industry, and so I love working with both.
But I do feel very passionate, I do feel like it's a total mission for me to break down business into easily digestible chapters, so to speak. I was telling Gary about that this morning. I read. I read a ton. And my children especially love when I can get a hold of a 1,400-page book that's going to keep me occupied for at least two weeks. And my kid's like, "How do you read a 1,400-page book?" And I'm like, "One page at a time." It doesn't matter how long the book is, if it's a good story, it can go on for a while.
And that's what I try to tell women about business. Business at its very basic is what is your input? What is your startup going to cost? What is your widget? How many of those widgets do you need to sell to make back your startup costs? How do you reinvest that? And then how do you continue to build those blocks and then develop and grow your company as it goes? And I try to take a lot of the fear out of it for women because women are, for the most part, rather fear-based. And not so much fear-based of... Well, we don't like failure. That's the truth. And our society doesn't really applaud failure. We've been so ashamed in mom failure and things like that, so those are just all core languages about women.
But I truly think that women truly have some of the best, especially product ideas. Some of the best products came from women because they found a hole in their home life that they needed a product that didn't exist one, and so they created one to make household stuff easier or raising children, or the lady who started Spanx. It was a hole in the market. And so I think women have great ideas. I just think that their confidence tends to hold them back.
And so what I do with Lady BizWiz is I'm not a rainbow and unicorn coach. I really want you to be successful, and so I really do the deep dive into how do you know your numbers? And so the master class I put together, we build out when you finish, you have a fully built-out business plan, because I think a lot of people don't understand the importance of a well-thought-out business plan, again, from all the facets, helping women create a solid foundation for their business. Because I think the foundation of most businesses are about the same. The walls is where I think the differences come in based on what they're selling, technology, things like that. Everybody has to have a marketing plan. Everybody has to have startup costs. Everybody has to understand how to price their product. Everybody has to understand how they're going to source their product or their ingredients or whatever. Those are all intrinsic across the board, so I work with taking the mystery out of some of that so it really doesn't seem something that's nearly as scary as women want to make it out to be.
Warwick Fairfax:
What's interesting, Amy, about what you said is you deal with the practical side with women entrepreneurs. Have a plan, one goal at a time, let's look at marketing, let's look at financing. But then you deal with the inner challenges. You got it, there's the practical, which is incredibly important, but then there's the inner fear. If I don't have it 100% sorted out, then maybe I shouldn't try. And I imagine too, it's easy to be very negative. "Oh, gee, why can't I be more objective as my husband or some guy and not take thing so personally?" You could go down that list, but I'm sure you probably go down the other list, which is women have some qualities that many men don't have.
Amy Shippy:
Absolutely.
Warwick Fairfax:
There's a lot of men that aren't very empathetic, that aren't very discerning. It's like he seemed like a nice guy to me. It's like, "Nice guy? Come on, didn't you see the signals? Come on, the guy's seen as a creeper. What's your problem?" Or men can get very competitive. Competition is okay, but it can get in the way of common sense. Does it matter who wins in the meeting? Let's just get something done and cooperate.
So, there are qualities that women have that men could learn a lot from women. So, it's easy to look at the glass half-full, but I'm guessing with women, you do the practical marketing, but you also tell them, "Yes, I realize there may be some things that you, Woman A, might feel like you wish you were a bit different than maybe some men you know." But maybe there's some qualities are not... They're underrating the qualities that many men don't have, if that makes sense.
Amy Shippy:
I think they do underrate themselves. And we aren't a one-sided thing. We have two sides. As much as I love the logical side of things, I'm equally an artist, and so I feed both of those parts of me constantly, because when those both are running at about 50/50, I am the happiest. So, we are not a flat object. And when you look at both, the business needs the foundation, it does, but if you neglect who you are where you're not firing on your greatest strengths, whatever they are, you're not going to be a happy person. And I think that you can take whatever your strengths are and you can put those into your business. You don't have to take what my strengths are. You need to take what your strengths are.
To your point, God didn't make a mistake when He made you. He made you exactly the way you were. How can we leverage all of these good things that you already are, if you want to be an entrepreneur, into being the best entrepreneur you can be? And so we are multifaceted, and that's the beauty of what we are. And you do need to take counsel. Scripture's clear about that. And get other sides. It's not the Amy train necessarily. But no, I think we're absolutely perfectly and beautifully and wonderfully made, and we have to care for both sides of that. And I think that's who makes the best business people.
Gary Schneeberger:
This is the perfect time, folks, to both ask a question I'm about to ask, but also to point out that sounds you heard was the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign. We've begun the descent to end our conversation. We're not there yet. Before we get there though, Amy, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you, your businesses, and your coaching that you do with Lady BizWiz. How can they find you on the World Wide Web?
Amy Shippy:
So, you can find me on Instagram, @lady.bizwiz is my Instagram handle. You can find me at Lottiebelle's, which, if you like candy pecans or iced teas, it's my pecan and tea company, and it's @lottiebellesga on Instagram. Lottiebelles.com, ladybizwiz.com, and then Blue Poppy is bluepoppydesigns.com and @bluepoppydesigns on Instagram. All my social media are basically what my company's names are. And so we do from the design, the pecan stuff, we do corporate gifting and we can take care of any kind of gifts and things like that. That's what that is. And if you want to work with me, if you're finding obstacles in your business and you want to have help with that or you want to take the masterclass, all of that can be found on ladybizwiz.com. You can take the masterclass. You can work one-on-one with me. I am very small business-friendly in my pricing because I want to be accessible to everybody, so I'm not a really expensive coach to work with. I just really believe in getting people off the bench and into the game of business.
Gary Schneeberger:
Aren't you glad, folks, that there's a rewind button that you can go back?
Amy Shippy:
Sorry.
Gary Schneeberger:
Because there's a lot. No, there's a lot of really good stuff that Amy just spoke about, so please rewind and get all of those URLs so that you can find out more about the fascinating stuff that she's doing and that we've talked about here.
Speaking of fascinating stuff, Warwick, I know you have a question or two, and I'll turn it back over to you.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Amy, there might be a business person, a woman in business, entrepreneur, and maybe today might feel like their worst day. They've been where you were, they've lost the business, they're angry at themselves, God, whoever's up there, maybe everybody they know, everybody they're in business with, family, kids, maybe a big long list and they're frustrated and maybe they're saying, "You know what the lesson is? I should never have gotten out of bed. The smart play is don't try, because then you won't fail." So, for the entrepreneur, the women entrepreneurs who had some failure, what would a word of heard be to that person who might feel like this is all too hard, I'm just staying in bed, because that way, I won't fail?
Amy Shippy:
I know how you feel. I know that that morning that you don't want to get up, you just don't want to face the day feels so insurmountable to you. And I've been there. I haven't wanted to get out of bed. I just didn't think I was worth enough and I just didn't think I had anything to offer. But I will tell you this, that is a lie. That is not who you are. That is not what you bring to this world.
And so if you are feeling that way, please talk to somebody. You are not alone. And this loneliness and this brokenness that you feel, it is not permanent. Maybe it's how you're feeling right now, but it is not a permanent feeling. So, get up, stand up, put one foot in front of the other, and just take a deep breath. You have succeeded in your life. If you've gotten here, you've succeeded more than you failed. So, hold on to that. On those days that I do not feel like enough, that is what I reach into. Somebody loves you. Somebody feels that you are precious to them. And if you cannot name that person, the Lord Himself says that you are worth getting out of the bed for today.
I am sorry that you are feeling like that is just something that you don't have the energy for, but I'm here to tell you that you are not alone. You are not the only person that have felt that way. I have felt that way, and I have been able to overcome because people and things that were bigger than me said that I could. And you can too. And I am so sorry you're feeling that way, but please do not feel defeated in that. Life has a lot in store for you.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word's been spoken on a subject, and it was just spoken evocatively with an exclamation point by our guest, Amy Shippy.
Warwick, we just wrapped a conversation with truly, I say this all the time, I'm like a broken record, but it's true, a fascinating guest, Amy Shippy, who had both a pretty tough crucible but then had a tremendous bounce back, and she's living now a tremendous life of significance. Lots of things that we could talk about there. What are one or two things that you think that folks should focus on in this episode?
Warwick Fairfax:
We talk a lot about crucibles and people's worst day, but this is an interesting example of a business failure. Amy Shippy was somebody that was spectacularly successful. She grew up in an entrepreneurial environment, parents are entrepreneurs, grandparents. It seemed like every relative she had was entrepreneurial in a sense, which is amazing. She got a lot of encouragement.
She started this furniture business, I think in the late '90s, a business that was, back before it was that common, packaged furniture, which you put together once you got it. And then the internet came along in the late '90s and it was very successful. But then around 2012, the recession came and the business went under. And in a sense, at least for a while, it almost broke her. She was almost at a point where literally she couldn't get out of bed. She was angry at, well, probably everybody. Her husband was in the business, everybody from herself, husband, God. She's a person of faith. Just angry, frustrated.
And it sure seemed like she had her identity and success just wrapped up in what she did, so she had to unlearn all this. And she's always going to be an entrepreneur, but I think she's learned some powerful lessons of not to tie up who you are in what you do. I think one of the things we all have to learn is who we are is more than our worst day. It's more than how much money we have or how big a house we have or how successful our business is. It's about our characters, who we are as human beings, from my perspective, created by God.
That's something that Amy had to learn. And it was fascinating, one of the biggest ways she learned that is she was at a retreat that her in-laws had signed her up for before the company went under, before this furniture business went under. She's at this retreat six weeks, I think, before the company would go under. And she met some guy that was a chaplain in hospitals and he said, "Well, why don't you join me?"
Well, eventually, not that long after her business went under, she did. And she realized when you're talking to folks there at the hospital, some are about to suffer permanent loss. Their loved ones are about to die. There's no coming back from that, at least not in this world. And so she realized she suffered loss, but it wasn't permanent loss. And she was grappling with what she should do in life, and should she be a chaplain? And I think in not so many words, it felt like the Lord's saying, "No, I made you to be an entrepreneur and you need to keep going at it." Her husband encouraged her. So many things that you do succeed. Does everything work? No, things happen, but let's get back out there.
And really, that time in that hospital, just seeing people with permanent loss, she was able to get back at it. And she has started a lot of successful businesses. Her macaron business started not that long after her furniture business failed, and then she has other businesses, Blue Poppy Designs, Lottiebelle's. And they may not be as successful in terms of dollars as the previous business, but they make for a very comfortable living. And now, she's able to do what she's so passionate about in Lady BizWiz, which is, she said this is really her calling. She enjoys the businesses that she's in. She said she'll like to get out of them at some point, sell them.
With Lady BizWiz, she comes alongside women entrepreneurs and gives them the practical skills of how to create a business plan, a marketing plan, how to work on one step at a time, rather than focusing on what's it all going to look like in five years. "Okay, let's just try to get to step one, make it profitable. Let's not worry about five-year packaging that you don't have the money for. Let's focus on what you can do now." And she gives them a lot of very practical advice, but from her perspective, women can have a lot of self-doubt and fear. And she gives a very good example of saying with men, if they have 50% of the qualifications for a business, they'll apply. With women, if they don't have 100% of the qualifications, they won't apply. That's her perspective on women in business. So, she's trying to help them understand you don't have to have 100% of everything all together, just if you've got enough for step one, start.
So, she gives them both practical business advice as well as spiritual and just really sole advice to help them be the best they can be. And so this is really her calling and help overcome fear. She's learned so much. And she may not be as successful as she was before in terms of dollars, but in terms of life success, separating your identity from what you do, loving the businesses she has, really enjoying and thriving at helping other women business owners be successful, she is, I would say, more successful in the full meaning of that word. Success in terms of life, spiritual success, business success in the terms of enjoying what she's doing. Maybe less dollars, but she is loving life and really, in particular, loving helping other women business owners be successful and learning to just take it one step at a time. So, she's really thriving in all senses of that word.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. We say it all the time. This is a big spotlight example of it didn't happen to her, it happened for her, her business failing, because there's ebullience in the way that she talks about it. She's energetic, she's happy, she's clearly living her calling, and that's obvious. And that's something that awaits everybody if we bounce forward from our crucibles.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well said.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that, folks, is a perfect place to end this week's episode. Until next time when we are together, please remember, we know crucibles are hard. We've been through them, but we also know they're not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning of a brand new story that leads you to the best destination you can possibly get to, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment, and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Prioritizing rest. Taking the time to take a break. It can sound counterintuitive to living a life of significance, but as we discuss this week, it’s actually critical to it.
Why and how? We discuss several reasons why slowing down can actually speed up your readiness to live a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. And it all starts with remembering the words of superspy Jason Bourne: Rest is a weapon.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. In our life and work, it's so important to have seasons of rest because by taking a break from what we do professionally, or maybe it's a mission that we're devoting our life to, we can focus on family, friends, and hobbies. And as we'll get into, it can actually freshen our thinking at work.
Gary Schneeberger:
Prioritizing rest. Taking the time to take a break. It can sound counterintuitive to living a life of significance, but as we discuss this week, it's actually critical to it. Why and how? We discuss several reasons why slowing down can actually speed up your readiness to live a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And it all starts with remembering the words of super spy Jason Bourne. Rest is a weapon.
Well, here we are again, folks, after ... Right? The first episode after our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles. And was that not ... You don't have to answer right now. Was that not big fun? Yes. I believe it was big fun and big insight as well. But we are coming back and we're coming back with an episode, folks, that this is behind the scenes at Beyond the Crucible that you may not know, that there's really no way you could know.
And that's this. The series that you just heard, Big Screen, Big Crucibles, was actually ... You heard it over the last two months, but it was recorded the two months before that. We recorded that in May and June. And the reason why we recorded it in May and June is the subject of what we're going to be talking about today, or is part of the subject of what we're going to be talking about today, which is the first podcast episode. Today is the first podcast episode since June. I don't know about you, Warwick. I'm feeling a little rusty right now, actually.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. But it's good to get back in the saddle.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. For sure. Let's hope we don't fall off. The subject that we're diving into today, folks, is pressing pause on diving into our usual day-to-day routine. There are times when absolutely work and all those responsibilities are important. And they're always important, but there's also times where rest is important. And that's what we're going to talk about here today. And Warwick, this subject, right? We're talking about this because you, over the course of the summer, after we recorded the summer series, you had been doing some reflecting this summer about why rest is so important. So why did you decide, Warwick? Why did you think about doing this? Our first time back behind the microphones in a couple of months. Why did you decide to really drill down and talk about the power of pausing?
Warwick Fairfax:
So over the summer, we've been in Northern Michigan, about as far North in Northern Michigan as you can get without being in the Upper Peninsula. And we kind of plan this out in advance. So as you're mentioning, we record the summer series in May and June so that in July and August, while our podcasts are coming out ... And it was such a fun series on Big Screen, Big Crucibles, and some great movies we discussed. But we're not actually recording them in July and August, so that gives us an opportunity for a break. And being Australian, I grew up in a culture where it's okay to take a vacation, okay to take a break. You don't have bosses saying, "Say what? You want to take three or four weeks off?" And that's a week, maybe two. So culturally, a little bit different. So when I'm working, I give it 100%, but I believe in just having periods where you are not operating at the same speed, at least in terms of our work life.
So I value this time, as we'll get into, up in Northern Michigan where I'm not the usual full tilt with Beyond the Crucible. And as I thought about the importance of rest, one of the phrases I love is from a character that Robert Ludlum writes about, Jason Bourne. I think many of us have seen the Jason Bourne movies. And there's obviously a series of books behind them. And here's this sort of super secret spy type that does things that nobody else can do. And before he goes into battle, so to speak, or in some mission and somewhere on the planet, he has this expression, which is, "Rest is a weapon."
And so by that, he means if he's going to be up like 24, 48 hours up against the bad guys and trying to accomplish some secret mission, if you will. And without getting into it too far, Jason Bourne is somebody that he tries to do good, but it seems like the whole world is against him. So that's not easy to actually rest. But anyway, the concept is when he's going to be having to be at his best to survive and accomplish his mission, he has to be rested beforehand. So really, if he doesn't rest, it may be a life or death decision. It could cost him his life. So he's a smart guy. And therefore, rest is a weapon. So that phrase has always stuck with me.
Gary Schneeberger:
And the names of those movies, the three original Jason Bourne movies starring Matt Damon were The Bourne Identity, The Bourne Ultimatum, and The Bourne Supremacy. I would add to this, as we talk about this, we're really talking about what Bourne says. We're talking about the Bourne significance, right? We're talking about how to live a life of significance with rest. I think that's what we're going to unpack here as we keep talking.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's really critical. And I think more broadly, in our life and work, it's so important to have seasons of rest because by taking a break from what we do professionally, or maybe it's a mission that we're devoting our life to, we can focus on family, friends, and hobbies. And as we'll get into, it can actually freshen our thinking at work. So sometimes we feel guilty about taking a break. And again, I love America, I'm a dual citizen, Australian and American. But in America, probably more than many other Western countries, taking a break is not as easy a sell. At least traditionally, it wasn't as easy a sell. Like in Australia, they want to take a few weeks off and travel around Europe backpacking, it's like, "Sure. Go ahead." So you've really got to believe in it. Here, it can be a bit of a challenge culturally, but it's just so important to keep ourselves fresh. So sometimes you almost feel like we have to seek permission to rest. We feel guilty about it, but we shouldn't. And that's really, I think, a big theme that we'll be talking about.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And it's interesting that you said earlier, as we were talking, that when you're at work, right? In those seasons when you're ... You give it 100%. And I think what you're going to advocate here as we talk about the importance of rest is we need to give rest ... Strange as it sounds maybe at first hearing, we need to give rest 100%, right? That's critically important that we do it in an active way that does refresh us, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
That's such an important point, Gary. Yeah. Whatever I'm doing, whether I'm working Beyond the Crucible, on a nonprofit board, at least I've been on a couple of nonprofit boards and elder at my church and number of things I'm involved in, I give it 100%. But when I'm on vacation, yes, I'll check email once in a while, but if you're on vacation, you've got to be on vacation. There are some people that go on vacation, they're checking emails every second, they're scheduling five Zoom calls a day, and their family never sees them. That's not vacation and that's not rest. Doesn't mean that you have to go cold turkey, shut off your phone, but you just need to prioritize rest. And you know what works for you. But this being at work while on vacation, that's not rest. And a lot of people do that. They just cannot unplug.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And one of the things that makes it so interesting that we're talking about this is that I used the phrase earlier that rest, pausing to do that is kind of part of the soul, right? It's kind of baked into Beyond the Crucible. Maybe a more accurate way to say it is it's just a part, it's become a part because it's a part of you, and you're the founder of Beyond the Crucible, that rest is part of the brand of Beyond the Crucible, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's interesting. Beyond the Crucible is a reflective brand. And certainly, part of the reason for that is that I'm a reflective person. I call myself a reflective advisor. For me to be at my best, thinking of ways to help people bounce back from their worst days to lead lives of significance, I have to have periods of calm where I can reflect. If I'm running a million miles an hour and stressed out, doing 85 things at once ... As a side note, I'm not a huge believer in multitasking because some people say they can do it, but I don't know, to me, you kind of do everything not as well, but maybe it's me. But all that's to say is if I'm running a million miles an hour and doing 85 things at once or have a lot of balls I'm juggling, I'm not going to be at my best.
I'm not going to be able to reflect and think of what are some ways that people can bounce back from their worst days. I write blogs, we do podcasts together, reflecting on different themes, we prepare discussions that we're going to have with guests. If I'm not in a good reflective space, I will not be a good interviewer for the guests we have. I won't have good points to discuss. It will significantly affect the quality of what we do at Beyond the Crucible and will mean that we're not able to help people bounce back from their worst days and live lives of significance as well as we could. So for me, it's absolutely critical. And I find when there are times when I'm sort of resting and walking in the woods or being a person of faith and my daily Bible study and reflection, maybe it's watching a movie, there's all sorts of things where I'm unplugging from work, ideas will come to me that might have nothing to do with what I'm doing. It might be chi. Rest is so important.
Or as I've been walking in the woods over the summer, I probably thought of three or four or five different ideas that could be future blogs or podcasts. So it just percolates in my brain. I'm not even trying, but by giving your brain a rest, it's amazing what can come up. So I am a reflective person, but if I don't have seasons of rest, it could be over the summer or just during the year in making sure I try to walk every day and have exercise, periods of rest on the weekend, if I'm not doing that, I'm not going to be a very good reflective advisor, reflective person. It will impact my life and the brand. So certainly, for this brand, especially running around at a million miles an hour, it's going to directly affect my ability to help people. So it's critical for me. It's critical for me to be able to help others, which is our mission.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And I'll jump in here as the American in this conversation to say ... Right? Because when that happens, when you go to Northern Michigan and you take that time, the rest of us on the team get a little bit of a break there too. A little bit of rest there too. And I think that's an important distinction. A break sounds like you're just kind of doing nothing, whereas active relaxing is going into those things that ignite you, that bring your soul up on fire and do some ... You're building relationships. You're doing some things like that.
So I'll raise my hand and tell everybody it's a wonderful thing for those of us who aren't accustomed to having two months, in essence, off of not everything that we do, we still worked, but certainly recording podcasts, we weren't [inaudible 00:13:58] over that time, which explains one of the reasons ... That's one of reasons why I'm probably not doing this very well. I'm stumbling over things because I haven't done this in two months. But the rest was worth it. And I'll get back into playing shape here at some point. But that is those of us who aren't accustomed to it embrace it as well. So I just wanted to make sure that was clear.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And thank you for that. And I guess another point I'd like to make is obviously it's important to Beyond the Crucible. And I would say more broadly, I think it's important for the work that we do and whatever that mode is. But I think what we underrate is if we don't have seasons of rest, then we're not going to be at our best to help others, not just at work, at home. How many times do you have the busy male or female executive that come back, the kids want to spend time with mom or dad, and they're absolutely fried because they're always fried? The pressure, the challenges. And sometimes there are things you can't do a whole lot about, but to the degree you can ... And the kids say, "Hey, Mom, Dad. Can you play? Can you throw a ball? Can you ... Let's bake something together, whatever it is."
And said, "No, leave me. No, I'm busy." It's just like, "Give me a break. I don't have time for stuff like this," whatever. We don't want to talk to our kids that way, but when we're fried, we'll say things we really would wish that we didn't. And then eventually, our kids won't ask. I think of that haunting song by Cat Stevens, Cat's in the Cradle. And it was like '60s, '70s. And the dad's busy and the kid's always asking him to play, throw a ball, and the dad says, "Well, I'm super busy right now, but we'll have a good time then where we can ..." Well, it never happens. And so the dad retires and says, "Hey, son. Let's hang out." And the son says, "You know what, Dad? I'm so busy at work. The kids are just all over the place, but we'll do it sometime. We'll have a good time then."
You don't want to live out that song. And so you want to avoid living out that Cat's in the Cradle song. You've got to find ways of having rest, whether it's a summer vacation, whether it's a Saturday, because if you're not at your best, you won't be at your best for your husband, wife, partner, friends, family. I think we underrate how important it is. In theory, we should love our spouse, partner, kids, relatives, friends. If we say we love them, we'll want to be at our best. To be at our best, we've got to find ways of resting and recharge our batteries. Otherwise, it's going to have relational lifelong consequences, not just at work, but in every area of our lives.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. We're about to flip the script a bit, folks, and Warwick's going to ask me a question, but before you do that, I pulled a quote, as I tend to do on these episodes. And this is a perfect time for me to insert this quote. This is a quote from someone named Eleanor Brown. I'm not sure who Eleanor is, but this is what she said about what you're talking about right now. "Rest and self-care are so important. When you take time to replenish your spirit, it allows you to serve others from the overflow." And I love this last line. "You cannot serve from an empty vessel." That's what you've been talking about the last three or four minutes, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such an important point. I think of when you're flying and they give you the safety instructions. "Mom, dad, if you're traveling with a kid, make sure you put the oxygen mask on first before you put it on your kid because you've got to be ... To help your child, you've got to be able to breathe yourself first." So yeah, we're not going to be able to help people, unless we're rested ourselves. And you're right. Help comes out of the overflow of the energy and compassion that we have. And they will tend to erode without rest. I don't care how much you believe in your mission, how much you want to help people. If you don't have seasons of rest, there'll be no overflow to help anybody, whether it's your mission or anybody else. So that's such a great point, is you want that overflow of energy and compassion.
Let's say your kid or spouse, partner has had a terrible day and they want to talk for an hour or two and they want you to just listen. If you're fried, I guarantee you, you won't be able to listen. I said, "You know what? Can we bottom line this? Can you give me the Cliff Notes? I've heard this spiel so many times. I'm really tired of you whining," or as you say in Australia, whinging. "Just get to the point and get over it." We'll say cruel and really hurtful things rather than if we're in a good headspace and a place of rest, then maybe we can listen for an hour or two and just say, "Gosh, I'm so sorry. That sounds so awful. I'm sorry you went through that at work. I'm sorry what your brother and sister said to you. I know that's an old wound. I'm so sorry." You can't do that if you don't have seasons of rest, which gives you hopefully the opportunity to have some level of compassion, ability to listen to those we love the most.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's flip the script a bit, as you suggest, Gary. So Gary, you wrote this really good blog with some great insights in June. And it's called Finding Peace in the Heat: 4 Ways Summer Can Help You Heal From a Crucible. And you talk quite a bit about the meaning of rest in that blog. So talk a bit about what is the meaning of rest?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting, Warwick, that I wrote this actually in May. It came out in June before we ever started recording the series, before either one of us was on that little bit of a sabbatical break over the months that the series ran. So it's kind of like ... It's very fortuitous that that came out because they're connected. What you're talking about, what I talked about here back several months ago is all very much connected. And it's interesting that they're connected from two different points of the journey that we talk about, right? We're talking here on this episode really about making sure that taking rest to ensure that you can live out your life of significance the way that you want to. I, back in June, wrote about helping you overcome a crucible by taking rest. And one of the things that was really critical to what I wrote, I thought, was this idea of we need to redefine rest.
Just think about that for a minute, folks. To redefine rest. It's more than binging Netflix, right? It's more than collapsing into bed early. It's more than just kind of hanging out and looking at this ... It's more than whiling away the hours. It's more than, quote, unquote, "Wasting time". It's about what fills you, not just about what numbs you. That, I think, is rest with a purpose. And I think it works, as I said, on both ends of this continuum. It works as we're looking to do what we did this summer, which is to rest in order to carry out our lives of significance more fully, but it also works to help us overcome crucibles. It also works to help us slow down and to focus on the healing that we need. And one of the things I wrote in the blog, and I'll pose these questions out to you, our listeners and viewers, is ask yourself these questions.
What kind of rest do I need today? There's physical rest, right? Like naps and sleep. But there's also emotional rest. Setting boundaries is a good example. Creative rest, reading poetry, painting. Warwick talked a little bit about that. And spiritual rest. He talked about that too. Prayer, meditation, silence. And then this part, this sounds weird. It sounds weird for me to say this because I'm like, "This is the most important part," because I wrote it, but this part is really important, and I think I was inspired to do so. And that is this, schedule rest like it matters because it does, right? I don't think we can say that enough. To schedule rest is important because if you don't schedule it, the time to do it's going to pass you by, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
These are such important points. Just touching on that last point, we scheduled this rest in the summer a few months ago. We talked. I don't know if it was March, April, before. "Okay. We've done a summer movie series the last few summers. Are we going to do one? Okay. What's it going to be?" And then we figured it out. Summer movie series based on some of the best crucible movies. And then, okay, so we want to figure out a way to record it in May and be done by June. So it's going to be a little intense in May and June. And it was. Lot of work.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, I would say it was more than a little. It was quite intense, right? And we had some ... Right? And not only was it intense, but the margin for error. This didn't work and that didn't work and something else happened. It was hard, but boy, was it worth it, right? When we got to the end of it, it was worth it. Not just because we got to rest afterwards, but because of what we created.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well said. Well said. Yeah. I spoke in my native Australian tongue or Australian English heritage. So as I jokingly say if an Australian says, or an Englishman, "Yeah. How's your business going?" "Oh, not bad." That means it's lights out. It's doing tremendously. If you say, "Ah, how's it going?" "Oh, we've bit of spot of bother," that would be kind of English. That means you're about to go bankrupt. Yeah. When I say it was a little intense, that means, boy, it was very intense.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Indeed.
Warwick Fairfax:
I translated that into American. So yes, I can't help myself. A little cultural Australian there. But yeah, it was intense. But the point about why we did it is, yes, we like a summer movie series, but it enables us to do a whole bunch of them together in ways that are a bit more challenging with regular guests. And it's a fun thing to do, but it means in July and August, yes, we're listening to the podcast and just previewing it, but it's much less work where we scheduled this rest months in advance.
We spend summer in Northern Michigan from basically first week in June to first, second week at September. That's something we schedule every summer. We figure out family that's going to come. We schedule all of that. So that doesn't happen by accident. If you're going to go on a trip somewhere with family, you schedule that. You'll have to book air tickets, book places to go. Spontaneous can work, but these days, spontaneous means you may not get into the place you want to get to. And it also means the price of the air ticket will be astronomical, unless a miracle happens. If you decide today, in two hours, let's jump on a plane, it can work, but the price will be astronomical. So all that's to say is it's important to schedule rest. And I like so many of the points you have here.
Yeah. You can binge Netflix, and that's okay, but it's like you want it to be things that sort of fill you up, not just numb you. Purpose is everything. And what are the things you like to do? Maybe it's walking in the woods. Maybe it's just going on an adventure or a hike. Maybe it's you like painting. There's all sorts of different ways of taking rest. Maybe you've got some challenging relationships. Okay. So maybe you want a season where you don't want back-to-back-to-back visits with people who are really emotionally challenging. You want to help them. But if your tank just keeps running dry because you just thought, "Let me schedule every challenging family member and friend I can have. We'll do back-to-back for about seven weeks, but just let's just go," it doesn't mean you don't care, but by the time you enter the last weeks of that, you'll have nothing left.
You'll do damage to those relationships. It's just you have to be smart. So it doesn't mean that you don't care, but create boundaries with relationships, as you put it. What are those things that help provide you spiritual rest? If you're a person of faith, like Gary and I are, yes, there might be seasons of prayer, meditation, some people do fasts, or silent retreats. Different people of faith have different rhythms, but find what works for you. Maybe you want to go for a weekend away or a week away with some guys or some women friends. There are different ways of having rest. Think about what are the rhythms that work for you, but plan it, be intentional about it, and don't just kind of, "Oh, I'll do it sometime." Plan it, schedule it, and reflect on what are the types of rest that really fill you up. And we're all different, so it'll be different for everybody.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So folks, if you want to know more about in depth the blog that was written for summer, that blog is called Finding Peace in the Heat: 4 Ways Summer Can Help You Heal From a Crucible. So that's the beginning end of our journey. And now, Warwick, let's talk a little bit about ... You've identified four points as we're walking out our lives of significance, four ways that rest benefits us as we're doing that. And the first one is this, it helps prevent burnout. How so?
Warwick Fairfax:
So it's easy to get burnt out at work. And sometimes we can get burnt out with the business or mission that they were off-the-charts passionate about, that we think will truly help people. And we think, "Well, I can't afford to take a break. There are people hurting. If I take a break, that means it's one less person that's going to get helped. I can't afford to quit. If they're suffering their challenges, they don't quit. So why should I quit?" You can convince yourself how, "I have a duty to just not quit and run 24/7," but we need to realize for us to truly be able to help people, especially if it's a mission we're off-the-charts passionate about, we have to take a break because if you don't take a break, not only will your thinking be less creative, you'll start snapping at team members that work with you. "Hey, this is too important. Okay? Do you have to take an hour lunch? How about 15 minutes? How about a half hour? Come on. Let's get with it. That presentation you did, it was terrible. Come on."
We tried to convince some investors or we were trying to get some partners on board who will help turbocharge our mission. "That was a solid B+, but anything short of A+ means we're not doing what we need to." You can be just really like a tyrant. And people will leave and say that, again, "I love the mission, but, gosh, you've turned into a jerk." They might say to you, "You just ... You're impossible to work with. You're so passionate. You're just making life miserable for the rest of us here." So burnout can really ... It can torpedo the greatest mission and the greatest business. You will just flame out and people will leave. So if you really care about your team and you care about your mission and business, we often say it's too important to fail, where your mission and business is too important for you not to have a rest. That should be the way you should look at it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting you said early on in what you were just saying that this idea of quitting. And it's important to note rest is not quitting, right? Rest is just resting. And I think a lot of us have this guilt that comes with rest. If I rest, I've stopped forward motion and I'm abandoning the journey or I'm abandoning the mission or the goal. And that's not true. If it's done intentionally, again, in a way that's designed to build you up, to feed you, it's actually helping you along your journey, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's true. And I think in some cultures, and it's not just the US, but there can be a cultural context making it harder to rest. Could be like, "Oh, it's easy for some. Wish I could take a break." And some people, their jobs are in a situation where it's harder to take a break. Doesn't mean it's nice to put a guilt trip on you, but it's like, "It's nice for some." I remember I was fortunate enough to go to Harvard Business School. And a lot of folks who go there work in investment banking or management consulting firms for a couple years before business school. I remember hearing stories from people in their 20s in investment banking. If you left for about 7:00 or eight o'clock at night, that's a half day.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
10:00 or 11:00, okay, it's beginning to get acceptable. So you'd have people saying, "Oh, half day. Oh, that's nice for you. Oh, you took a weekend off. What's a weekend? There's no such thing as a weekend. You work 24/7 here." So it's just ... There certainly used to be this corporate pressure and cultural pressure that you do not take a break. And so that makes it harder when you feel like you're going to be guilt-tripped by your buddies. And they might find it funny needling, but it's not helpful. But you just got to realize or say to yourself, "Other people can say what they want. I'm not going to bow to cultural pressure or needling from my buddies."
It's like, "I believe rest is important for my family, for my business. And if I'm not doing this, then I'm not going to be at my best. And if people want to tease me, get on my case, have at it. I'm not going to just bow to needling or cultural pressure." You just got to commit to what you believe in. If you believe rest is important, don't let other people ... Guilt trips on you change the way you want to lead your life. It makes no sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. The second point, the second benefit that you have pulled out, Warwick, about rest is that seasons of rest reduce the possibility of having your identity completely wrapped up in what you do. We've talked about this, you've talked about this quite a bit on the podcast, quite a bit in your blogs. Why is that so important, not to have your identity caught up in what it is that you do? And why does rest, does being intentional about rest, why does that help you avoid that?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's very easy for many of us to have our identity wrapped up in what we do. You feel like, "Okay. There's another rung. I'm vice president. I'm a director. I want to get to that next level." And nothing wrong with ambition and wanting to get to the next level, but when you have your whole identity defined as getting to that next level, you're just consumed with the upward trajectory. Maybe you have this nonprofit you think that will help so many people, and your identity is all wrapped up in it. And it's just very dangerous because when your whole life is defined by your business or mission, you'll tend to make poor decisions and you'll certainly find that resting, "Oh, I can't rest." But you've got to say to yourself, "Who I am is not defined by what I do, nor is who I am defined by how many people I can help."
You can get caught in the, "Hey, I know this other nonprofit that's helping twice as many people as we do. There's another business that's three times as successful as I am." The comparison game will make it impossible to have rest. And you'll just be consumed by what you do. So you've got to make a decision to say, "My identity is not going to be wrapped up in what I do. And therefore, I am also going to take time to rest to recharge my batteries." Because if your identity is wrapped up in what you do, it's like, "Well, if I take a break, and then we won't be as successful, we won't be able to help as many people."
That's part of what fuels the, "I can't take a break," as well as, "I'll get ragged on by my buddies." There's all sorts of causes, but one is the identity trap. So you've got to say to yourself, "My identity is not wrapped up in what I do. I'll do the best I can. And I'll help the people I can. And I'm not going to be defined by the size of the mission, the size of the business. And for me to be at my best, I'm going to have to take a break and have a rest." And it really ... Taking a break forces us to focus on other things, such as friends, families, or even favorite hobbies. I think it's so important to be able to do that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Right. Your third point that you ... As we talk through this, what are we going to talk about? Your third point dovetails nicely off what you just said, and that's the third reason to press into rest is that seasons of rest help us be more creative and give us renewed energy for the mission that we care so much about, right? That thing that drives us when we're working. Rest helps us strengthen that. Helps strengthen that mission. Talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's so true. When I think of being up here in Northern Michigan for the summer and the pace of life shifts, the things to do is ... We'll get into, but it's less of Beyond the Crucible. So as I'm walking in the woods or I'm praying or we're out on the water or whatever it happens to be, I'm not thinking about Beyond the Crucible, but ideas will percolate in my head. I've written down, I think, as I mentioned, five or six different ideas for blogs and podcasts. And so ideas come. That by giving ourselves a break, it can give us renewed energy for the mission. I really try to live what I believe. And as much as I love Beyond the Crucible and believe in its mission to help people bounce back from their worst day and lead a life of significance, I try to make sure that my identity is not defined by it. As a person of faith, my identity is in Christ.
It's in my faith. It's not in what I do. What I do is an outgrowth of what I believe, but it's not who I am. And so I really try to live that back to identity. But by having this season of rest, it gives me renewed energy. And all sorts of ideas percolate from it. Could be a walk in the woods. I've had times when I've been meditating on scripture, and out of left field, an idea comes from what we do at Beyond the Crucible, not related to what I'm praying about. I don't know how that happens. Maybe it's just me. I don't know. But it's when your brain-
Gary Schneeberger:
It's not-
Warwick Fairfax:
... is focused on other things. Or it could be a hobby. It could be a bike ride. Or I'm not a woodwork, but some people love having a wood shop and making things. It could be all sorts of things, but it really gives this renewed energy and renewed creativity. It's like you believe in your business, you want to be more creative, more energetic, think of ideas to take what you're doing to the next level, whatever that might be, and have a season of rest. It'll be better for your business and, well, your friends and family. It sounds kind of intuitive. How can having a rest be better for my business or mission?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, it can and it is.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And then the fourth point that you thought through while you were having your rest this summer, Warwick, was this, rest gives us the opportunity to find gratitude and joy in our family, our friends, and even in the small things in life. And this one really is a big one here as we're talking about rest, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's so true, Gary. I do find when I'm resting, I am able to be more grateful. And I purposely do try to be grateful. If I'm walking in the woods, often when I walk, it'll be with my wife, Gail, or with my family, but sometimes other things are going on and it's just me walking in the woods and I might be listening to music. Could be classical music, worship music, all sorts of different things, which I love doing. But I'll often think about how grateful ... I'll think about, "I can't believe we get to be up in this beautiful place in nature and walks through the woods." And I'll think of just how grateful I am for my faith and have God, Christ in my life. I think of how grateful I am to have my wife. We've been married 35 years or more. I think of my kids.
My older son got engaged earlier in the summer, actually up here in Northern Michigan, which was super special. I think about that a lot because she's a wonderful young woman. So I have a whole bunch of things that I am grateful for and I just run through them, and it just fills me with joy. When we're out on the water, I just think of how grateful I am just to be able to do that and just the beautiful scenery and just the warmth of the sun and being with friends and family. Yeah. There's so many activities up here that just fill me with joy, but rest gives us an opportunity to think of all the things that we're grateful for and just the joy in the little things of life. We have kayaks up here. And when it's calm, which is not always because it is Lake Michigan after all, but when it's calm, [inaudible 00:42:47] it's sunny, warm, calm, let's go on the kayak.
And I did rowing in high school and my college at Oxford. So I feel like I kind of know what I'm doing a bit with kayaking. I may not, but I have that feeling. And I love that. I'm just paddling along and just around the shores here. Where we are in Northern Michigan, it's just so beautiful, just seeing the boats, the houses. Just the water's incredibly clear here, so seeing the rocks underneath and the water lap against the kayak. And it's so restful, but it just fills me with such joy. Just a simple thing, paddling in a kayak. But it's all those things, they really recharge your batteries.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And in this period over the summer, I had the opportunity, right? My wife, Kelly, and I went to International Falls, Minnesota. I live in Wisconsin. So International Falls, Minnesota, folks, if you're not aware, it's both the icebox of the nation, it says, that's its motto, the icebox of the nation, but it's also at the very corner. It's on the Canadian border. And someone very special to my wife and I, a young woman who I've called for, gosh, 15 years now, my heart daughter, someone who I came alongside when she was younger and filled ... Was blessed to be able to fill a little bit of a father figure role in her life. We went up and visited her and her husband and their three kids in International Falls. And we did ...
We didn't kayak. We canoed. And I did not do that in college. And I was not very good at it on Rainy Lake up in International Falls, but it was still fun, right? Those kinds of things, you can't ... The things that happen there, both when you're having fun and you're just laughing and joking and doing things. We played this word game's kind of like Scrabble. It's called Upwords. And their middle son, Ben, who's named after me, Benjamin Gary Kershman is his name, right? So my namesake, right? Ben's playing the game. And Ben, very, very thoughtful about words, comes up with a word that isn't really a word. And it's not offensive, but it's just funny. And it just became like a running joke for us when we were there.
It's those kinds of things that you'll never ever forget that happened. Those are in the blog that we were talking about that I wrote. I wrote this line, "To find small anchors of joy when you're trying to bounce back from a crucible and you're enjoying rest." And I think you can find small anchors of joy when you're doing this that we're talking about as you're walking out your life of significance. And I tell you, I came back from that trip to International Falls, Minnesota, energized. My tank was at overflowing full. And that makes me better at everything that I do, both professionally and as a husband and stepfather here in the house, as a friend, as a brother, as all those things that I am. And I wouldn't have been able to do that, frankly, if you didn't have this idea every summer to take a couple of months off to go to Northern Michigan. If you didn't go to Northern Michigan, I wouldn't have gone to Northern Minnesota. So that benefits me as well. Yeah. You cannot overestimate how important those moments, those small anchors of joy are, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And I love that phrase that you used in the blog, "Small anchors of joy." I think I was watching a movie the other day. And one of the characters said, "Life is made up of just moments and memories." And it's true. What are the moments you're trying to build? I guess another way of saying good moments would be anchors of joy. Well, if you're running at a million miles an hour, that's going to be hard. Talk about sitting back, looking at the roses, smelling the flowers and all that. Well, you can't do that when you're running super fast. You wouldn't have been able to go to Northern Minnesota, whether it was Beyond the Crucible or other things you're involved in if it's like, "No, I can't afford to do this. I'm doing A, B, and C. And I'm flying here, there, and everywhere." Or whether it's us here in Northern Michigan. Most of my wife, Gail's family is from the Midwest.
And so they were within a few hours of here, which we live in Maryland most of the year, but we spend our summers here. Well, they come here and they love it between the boating and kayaking and all different activities and bicycle riding and just visiting some of the beautiful towns here and the walks we have in nature at various places. It's just a wonderful place. But that wouldn't be possible if we didn't sort of allocate this as a season of rest. And when family come, I'm able to be present rather than say, "I'm sorry. I'm doing a podcast every day this week and writing blogs. And enjoy."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's not going to bless my wife or my kids. And so you've got to ... I've got to be present while I'm here.
Gary Schneeberger:
And one of the reasons that you have to be present is because while everybody who's watching and listening knows you as the founder of Beyond the Crucible and the host of this program, in Northern Michigan, around your family, you're known as what?
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, it's kind of like the resort manager because it's just us. In a resort, you've got a whole bunch of people to help. Well, it's just the two of us. So when we come here, we've got to open the house up and make sure everything's working, which usually it is, but sometimes it's not. So got some house management things to take care of, people to call to fix stuff. But whether it's boats, kayaks, we have a couple jet skis, which a lot of folks enjoy, Gail's family and all. And there's just a lot to get done, make sure everything's working, and make sure everybody knows how to operate everything. Yeah. It's not like we're just sitting back, reading a book all summer. There are seasons of that, but there's also seasons of hosting people and helping people get from A to B.
"And gosh, we've got 11 people here from Gail's family and our kids. What are we going to do? Well, let's see. Let's go ride bicycles. Well, the bicycle trail is 20 minutes away and we've got to get bikes from A to B. How's that going to happen?" So putting bikes in the back of cars and back on bike carriers. "And okay. What are we going to eat?" So it's different level of ... It's not really work, but it's different level of activity, just making sure that people are cared for and activities are planned and you can make things happen. Yeah. There is ... I don't want to say work, but different kinds of activity, different things to do, but it's not Beyond the Crucible. Some people might say, "Gee, it's summer. I'm going to take a couple weeks off to build a deck."
Well, doesn't sound like rest, but it's different levels of activity. It's resting from your normal job, at least for those who ... There's some that people actually really like building decks. I have a good friend that building decks or going on stuff with Samaritan's Purse to help people build houses in flood-damaged places, he finds that therapeutic. That's rest for him. It energizes him. That wouldn't be me. But for some people, building houses and decks, it's just therapy.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It's not my testimony either, Warwick. So Warwick, that landed the plane on the conversation that we're having here about the importance of rest and redefining rest in our lives, especially as we're walking out our lives of significance. What are some takeaways that came to you? And I know we haven't prepared this in advance because all this, folks, was kind of like a by the seat of the pants. So Warwick had these thoughts and we just kind of went with it, which is kind of fun for us. So how would you sum this up for folks? What are the takeaways you'd like to see them walk away from here with?
Warwick Fairfax:
I think the starting place is we often feel guilty about even thinking about having rest. Little easy in Australia. A little harder here and in some other countries. Or you might have friends that you know are going to tease us, "Oh, that's great. You can have a rest. And I can't. And hey, while you're having rest, I'm going to be plowing forward in my job and career. And so see you. I'll be way ahead of you while you're just sitting back resting and kind of doing nothing on the beach or whatever you do." So we can guilt trip ourselves into thinking, "I can't afford to have a break. If I have a break, there might be other people that will get ahead of me, the people that never take a break. I won't get that promotion at work."
Or it may be, "Boy, that business or mission I'm doing, I'm so off-the-chart passionate about it. The people I help, that they can't afford for me to take a break." But we can just guilt trip ourselves into thinking, "I can't take a break." But we need to realize, in the words of Jason Bourne, that rest is a weapon. If we care about our family, if we care about our coworkers, if we care about the people we want to help, we have to find ways of taking a break, whether it's taking a Saturday off, a weekend off, or a couple months off in the summer. When I say, "Take a couple months off," everybody's in a different situation, but find ways of having rest because if you don't, you won't be at your best and you'll probably start hurting your family, friends. Thinking of it positively, when we take a break, we'll be better with our families and friends.
We'll be more creative, more enthusiastic at work. We'll probably treat our coworkers better, those that work with us. And I think as you put it, Gary, in your blog, we're talking about small anchors or anchors of joy. We can think about all the things we're grateful for, our families, our spouse, partner, kids, friends, the work we do, and just find joy in a walk in the woods, find joy being on the water, find joy for those that like woodwork, building something in their wood shop. Wouldn't be Gary and I. But there are some [inaudible 00:54:18] that enjoy that, from what I've read about and know.
But none of that happens without rest. So if you feel like what you do is important and the people that you're with, friends and family, are important, if those things are important, your work, your mission, your friends, your family, if they're all important, you have to find a way to rest. Forget the guilt trips. Forget what other people might say. Forget what the negative voices inside you are saying. Make rest a priority. The people you're around or the work you do is too important for you not to rest. Just do it. Find a way. Commit to having rest.
Gary Schneeberger:
You're not out of practice, Warwick. It's been a couple months since we've done this, and you just got a perfect 10-point landing there on the episode. Folks, as we often do when we do episodes like this, and they're normally based on one of Warwick's blogs, but since this one is only based like about a third on a blog that I wrote at the start of summer, I'm just going to ... Rather than do three reflection questions, I'm going to do one because it's the most important, I think, reflection question. And that's this, how can you ... Think about this, folks. How can you redefine rest as you pursue your life of significance? Right? How can you redefine rest? We've been talking this whole episode about redefining rest, what it really means, what it really looks like when you do it. And then commit to doing one of the ideas that you come up with on a regular basis.
One of the things you heard Warwick say, as we're talking through this episode, was while he's resting, he's like, "Oh, and here's an idea for a blog I could write. Here's an idea for this I could do. And here's an idea for this I could do." As you lean into your rest, what are the ideas that you come up with on a regular basis? And how can you use those things to find joy in your life and accomplish other things? And that, folks, will end our first episode back. We did okay, Warwick. Our first episode back from our summer series.
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed.
Gary Schneeberger:
So remember, folks, we will be back next week. And we do understand. We understand how hard crucibles are. Warwick's been through them. I've been through them. But we also know they're not the end of your story. And we've had so many guests on who've talked about how they're not the end of your story. They can be the beginning of your story if you learn the lessons from them and apply those lessons as you move forward in your life of significance.
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Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Big Screen, Big Crucibles VIII: The Monuments Men
In this final episode of our summer series, BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES, we discuss the crucibles and the overcoming of them in THE MONUMENTS MEN.
That’s the name given during WWII to the ragtag team of art historians and curators who form a unit to recover stolen art before Hitler destroys it. The mission becomes urgent, and their crucibles more difficult, when they learn of Hitler’s order to destroy the artwork if the Third Reich falls and the Russians start looking to grab some of the spoils for themselves.
Dive deeper into your personal narratives with our BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES guided journal, meticulously crafted to enhance your experience with our podcast series exploring cinema’s most transformative crucible stories. This journal serves as a dedicated space for introspection, inviting you to connect the profound journeys of on-screen characters with the pivotal moments that have shaped your own life.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Jeffries here, he absolutely buys into the vision that Stokes and the Monuments Men are carrying out. He is prepared to give his life for this vision of preserving artworks and civilization. I mean, he went there to try and save and protect the statue, that Madonna and Child. He must have known the chance of success is probably high, or certainly in the balance of just one man against however many Nazi troops there are there.
Gary Schneeberger:
In this final episode of our summer series Big Screen, Big Crucibles, we discuss the film The Monuments Men. That's the name given during World War II to the ragtag team of art historians and curators who form a unit to recover stolen art before Hitler destroys it. The mission becomes urgent and their crucibles more difficult when they learn of Hitler's order to destroy the artwork if the Third Reich falls, and the Russians start looking to grab some of the spoils for themselves.
Well, welcome friends to this final episode of this year's summer series of Beyond the Crucible, which we have called Big Screen, Big Crucibles. Why? Because they're about movies, big screen, and because as you'll discover in this episode, the final episode, the eighth episode, as all of them, but this one in particular has some big crucibles in it that people go through and some big lessons we all can learn from what those characters go through.
We have been doing this now, as I said, this is the eighth week and we're taking a look at films because they have a wide variety of crucibles is what we've been doing. The films that we've covered, including this one, has a wide degree of crucibles in it, and insightful lessons of how you can navigate your own, bounce back from your crucibles, and cast a vision for moving beyond your crucibles. It helps you get through your crucibles, and it helps you get past your crucibles, that's what we're hoping comes out of the movies that we're covering.
And this week, our final movie, film number eight, is The Monuments Men. The movie came out in 2014, and here's the synopsis. Inside baseball term for you guys, I worked in Hollywood for three years, this is called a log line. It's the most succinct summary of a film possible, and here it is for The Monuments Men. During World War II, a ragtag team of art historians and curators form a unit to recover stolen art before Hitler destroys it. The mission becomes urgent when they learn of Hitler's order to destroy the artwork if the Third Reich falls.
That is what we're going to be talking about here, that's some pretty weighty stuff. We saved, dare I say, the best for last. We saved some really, really good crucibles, good examples of crucibles that will help you navigate your way through yours. And Warwick, before we delve into the crucibles, the characters in the film phase, but before I go to the question I've asked you for every episode before this, I just want to share a couple of bits of trivia I put together off of the films and see if you can guess close to where we are. So we covered, this is the eighth film. We've covered eight films in this series. How long do you think those movies stacked end to end are?
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, I think each movie was probably a couple hours, so it would have to be at least 16 hours. I don't know, 17, 18 hours?
Gary Schneeberger:
Look at you. 17 hours and 31 minutes, and that's mostly because one of the films was Les Miserables, which was two and a half or more hours long. But here's another interesting fact about these movies, and it's funny because we have not talked about the actors who play the characters in these films. We've only talked about the characters that are being played. But it's interesting to know, folks, that the quality of these films that we're talking about, these films have in them, these eight films that we're covering in this series have in them eight Academy Award-winning actors or actresses. So in front of the camera, that doesn't even count the Oscar winners behind the camera. These are just in front of the camera, the folks who are doing the acting. That pretty much is a good sign of the quality of the kind of films we've been talking about, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, absolutely. I mean, these are incredible movies with incredible actors. We'll hear more about this particular movie and George Clooney and what incredible performance he puts in this movie. But every movie we've discussed with great actors and actresses, and yeah, these are fabulous movies to discuss.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and Mr. Clooney is in fact one of those Oscar winners from in front of the camera as a best supporting actor Oscar winner several years back. All right, now to the question that always begins these episodes of our summer series, before we get into the crucibles that the characters in the film face, let's talk one last time here in the eighth episode about why we have come back again to films. This is the third time we've done a summer series that's focused on films a little bit different each time, but why again are we in the movie theater? Why again, are we looking at films as an example of what crucibles look like when we experience them and how you can get past them?
Warwick Fairfax:
Gary, we both love movies, but it's more than the fact that we love movies, which we do, it's in this particular series as well as the last several series. We have looked at movies through a Beyond the Crucible lens, and that's something that you've certainly mentioned as you mentioned a lot of these or some of these movies you've worked on in Hollywood.
Gary Schneeberger:
Including this one.
Warwick Fairfax:
Which is fabulous. And so movies typically portray a protagonist that is facing significant challenges that are seeking to overcome. So last few seasons, if you will, last few years we've covered movie superheroes, sports heroes, historical heroes, and indeed last year, we covered movies from the American Film Institute's Top 100 movies.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
This year we thought we'd look at some of the very best movies where we had people overcoming significant crucibles to lead lives of significance, lives on purpose dedicated as serving others, and these are all great movies with enormous challenges, and we can learn so much from how they overcame these challenges, how they managed to turn their worst day into a life of significance from trial to triumph, so to speak.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and one of the things, folks, now that we're finishing the series, one of the things that I think makes it evident that the characters in these films do indeed go through crucibles just like me and you, is that of the eight movies, including this one, seven of them are based on a true story. The first words you see on the screen when it comes up, right, when they fade in based on a true story. Seven of the eight films including this one, the one that wasn't was based on true events and that it was a French Revolution, but it was Les Miserables. So these movies, one of the reasons they reveal so much about crucibles and how we get past them is that they're all based on people who have done that very thing. That's where the lessons get extracted from.
This eighth film that we're taking a look at, The Monuments Men, is set in 1943. That's when it begins. Anyway, World War II is still going on, and the Nazis are still planning on establishing what they're calling the Thousand-Year Reich. But the Allies continue to make advances in Italy and the war is beginning to turn, this is not Hitler at his strongest, the Nazis at their strongest, the war is starting to turn a bit. Paris though is still under Nazi control and it's pretty strong Nazi control. We see Hermann Göring, one of Adolf Hitler's right-hand men, arriving at an art gallery that has been under Nazi control, it seems for some time.
Göring visits Nazi officer Viktor Stahl, who is apparently in charge of the art gallery that has been taken over and he shows him paintings, Stahl does, shows Göring paintings, painting after painting that the Nazis have seized as their spoils of war. We don't yet know why the Nazis are so obsessed with history's greatest art, but we will find out why. Warwick, as Göring goes through all the art in the building, which Stahl has arranged for him, we also meet Claire Simone, a Parisian woman who's clearly working against her will for Stahl. While we don't know everything that's going on yet, we do learn that Claire is a very unwilling participant in it. Talk about what we see in this scene as it sets up what we're going to see in The Monuments Men.
Warwick Fairfax:
There is a moment of just small resistance. Sometimes in life you can't resist as much as you'd like to, but there is small acts that says, "I'm not good with this. I'm going to do something small that nobody will ever notice, but at least I'm doing something." So what does she do? Stahl asks for champagne. Okay, here he is with Reichsmarschall Göring, some very esteemed person. Like anybody in this situation, he wants to put on a good show, so he asked for champagne. So off Claire goes to get some champagne and she spits in the champagne glass for Stahl. I don't know if she spits in Göring, but she certainly does for Stahl. This clearly shows that she's not a collaborator because there were some French people that were collaborators but not her.
And so we learn in the scene that, clearly, the Nazis are obsessed with artworks. I mean, if they weren't, why would they appoint some Nazi officer to look over the museum? I mean, what would be the point? But he is looking over it and Göring is there visiting this art museum. He's wondering, "Okay, I want to take a painting for Hitler," and I'm sure he'll take some for himself at some point I would imagine. Maybe others, we don't know, but it does indicate what the Nazis are thinking. So it really shows that the Nazis are obsessed with artworks that they've captured throughout Europe and the Claire, in her own small way, at least at the moment, it feels like it's small, we'll learn it's not as small as we think
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, good foreshadowing.
Warwick Fairfax:
She's doing what she can to resist. Exactly.
Gary Schneeberger:
The scene then shifts and we find out even more. The scene shifts to Washington, DC where Frank Stokes is speaking from a podium to President Roosevelt in the audience and other VIPs who are with the President. He's not there to advise the president on how to win the war, but how not to lose the culture. He's not talking about here's how you win the war. He's talking about a subject more important to him, or as important to him I should say, which is how do you not lose the culture, the history, right? He wants to sure that the world, not just America, the world doesn't lose the history that could be sacrificed in what will be required to win the war. Warwick, this is a scene in which Stokes lays out a mission for something he deems as important as freeing civilization from Nazi rule. His mission is to save his words, the very foundations of modern society. What does he mean by that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Frank Stokes, as we see in this early scene, has a very tough task to persuade Roosevelt that amid all the challenges of World War II, that saving artworks is important. And he tells Roosevelt, "We're at a point in this war where we are at the most dangerous point for artworks," and he gives an illustration with the Ghent Altarpiece in Belgium that is a defining work at the Catholic Church which the Nazis have stolen. Stokes says, "We will win this war, but a high process will be paid if the foundations of Western society are destroyed." So the Allies are converging from the east with Russia from the west with the rest of the Allies, and Stokes wonders, "Who will make sure the Statue of David is still standing, or that Mona Lisa is still smiling?" I mean, he is presenting a convincing case very well, and he says, "Who would be their protector, the Mona Lisa and the statue of David?"
So Stokes has won over Roosevelt and Roosevelt says, "This is a compelling argument," and asks what he would suggest, what's next? Stokes says he wants to pull together scholars to identify the great works, including young art scholars and obviously to protect them. Just think about the mission that Frank Stokes is trying to sell to Roosevelt and indeed to the people he'll encounter on the battlefield as we find, which won't be easy.
It's one thing to be Abraham Lincoln and say to the north, "We need to remain United States of America, a union. We need to stop slavery expanding in territories and future states and ultimately to abolish slavery." That's something that everybody in the north can get behind. This is a mission worth dying for, to save the union and abolish slavery. People get that.
But to say, okay, maybe people will need to die to save artworks. It's like, okay, artworks? That's a tougher sell. And so just to sell Roosevelt was amazing, but as we'll find this mission will be very tough because there'll be a lot of people that will be like, "I don't get it. Saving artworks, there are more important things than artworks." So Frank Stokes has signed up for an incredibly difficult mission that is not going to be an easy one and won't be easy to get people to convince it's important. This is a tough one.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, and one of the reasons it's not going to be easy, he says, as you pointed out, he wants art scholars, but young art scholars, well, guess what? Most of the young art scholars and everybody and all the other young people are fighting the war.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Gary Schneeberger:
So that's going to be a tough task for him as he goes forward. But yet Stokes is officially given that mission, that very mission by Roosevelt. He's tasked with building a unit, not to fight the Nazis, but to rescue precious art from the fight against the Nazis. And he puts together, even though they're not young art scholars perhaps, he puts together a multitalented, multinational team, doesn't he? What makes these men who come to be known as the Monuments Men, what makes them unlikely heroes?
Warwick Fairfax:
We see it's March 1944, and Stokes's first stop is to enlist James Granger. He is in New York. He's one of the curators at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, so that's the first person he gets. Then he gets on board Donald Jeffries, who's English. We learn that he has a drinking problem and he almost went to jail and he's had a tough life, maybe made some wrong choices, but is grateful for an opportunity from Stokes. And then we see them enlisting Stokes and Granger, Richard Campbell, who's an architect in New York. They then get hold of Walter Garfield, who's a sculptor.
Next, they sign up Sam Epstein, who is Jewish. He was born in Germany, lives in New Jersey, will later find out that he actually grew up until being a teenager in Germany, fluent in German, and comes to the US in 1938 so he'll prove to be very valuable. Then we have Jean-Claude Clermont who studied at the School of Fine Arts and is French. And then finally, we see them enlist Preston Savitz, who's a theater director. So from architect, theater director, art curator, I mean sculptor, this is a diverse group of people and they may be experts at their field, but they're different personalities, different ages as we'll find different levels of fitness as they go through basic training.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So it's quite a diverse group of people.
Gary Schneeberger:
And they do go through basic training, and there's some funny scenes in there. One of them involves, I believe it's not Campbell, it's Walter Garfield. And he's going through some drill where he is got to crawl like he's crawling through right under those ropes. And Stokes comes up and says, "Hey, how are you doing?"
He says, "I'm doing fine, except I'm crawling through the mud and they're shooting blanks over my head."
And they go, "Are you sure they're blanks?"
And one of the guys who knows better says, "Oh no, those aren't blanks," they're shooting live rounds over their heads as they're going through it.
These guys are not guys who are accustomed to these sorts of things, this kind of environment, the wartime environment, but yet they're doing it because they believe this mission to be very, very important. So the men discover at a briefing that Hitler's passion for the great works of art stems, at least in part from his own failed attempts at painting, right? They're getting briefed on what's inside Hitler's lust for these artworks, and they find out that he had a failed attempt at painting. The team has an epiphany. The Nazis are stealing the art and they're hiding it somewhere, where this revelation expands the mission of the team, now known as the Monuments Men. Their first goal was to keep war from destroying great buildings and great art, and now it's added to their mission, the idea of needing to save it from being stolen, these artworks. How does that make the stakes even higher? And they were already pretty high. How does that make the stakes even higher as they get deployed on their mission?
Warwick Fairfax:
It turns out that Adolf Hitler was actually a failed art student at the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna. Hitler, who's actually from Austria, is planning on building the Führer Museum in his hometown of Linz in Austria. And we'll see at one point that Hitler looks over this vast model of this museum and other buildings, and it's a whole landscaped, massive edifice to his glory basically. And it would be one of the biggest museums in the world. It would include stealing art from all over: Amsterdam, Warsaw, Paris, all over Europe. And so this shows that Hitler has this grand plan to steal the most priceless and valuable artworks in Europe to pull together in this museum.
I mean, this, as you say, does show how high the stakes are for the Monuments Men. It's not just about stopping these artworks being destroyed. It's clear that Hitler wants to steal them and take them and hide them, and will they ever be found again? So the stakes are certainly high. And now we move on to an early scene that shows just how challenging this mission is, and support on the ground is not easy. There might've been a director from on the high from President Roosevelt, but the average commander in the field is not with the program, and this is understandable.
It's July 1944, after D-Day, we see some of the Monuments Men are landing in Normandy, France, and first stop is to talk to the local American forces commander about their mission. And this commander is irate. He says basically, "I have no interest in preserving buildings, artworks, and church towers. I mean, I'm trying to save my troops. I'm trying to capture territory, free Europe from the tyranny of the Nazis." I mean, that's implicit in what he's saying.
So this is a challenging task because it's tough enough to figure out where the Nazis have taken the artworks, but then they're really not going to get much help of any from most of the local commanders that they talk to, so how are they meant to accomplish this? It's really, as the movie goes on, it just feels like the challenge gets more important and tougher.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's the arc of this movie. The mission gets tougher, and it gets tougher to accomplish. And so that's what we learn here.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's something, folks, if you're listening and watching this right now, you may have felt that in your own life, in your own situation, not in these circumstances, but we say all the time at Beyond the Crucible, while the circumstances of your crucible may differ from place to place, the emotions of it are the same. And what Warwick just described about running into a brick wall every time you try to move forward with your mission as the Monuments Men do, is probably that those, certainly something that Warwick and I have experienced going through our crucibles. So this is again, why we do movies is because what comes out of the movies are things that happen in real life to us, different circumstances, same emotions.
And as Warwick said, it can feel like a dead end, but newsflash, not a dead end yet for the Monuments Men. Claire discovers that Stahl is taking her gallery's contents to Germany as the allies approach Paris. She runs to the rail yard to confront him, but can only watch as he departs aboard the train carrying the cargo, all of the artwork that she had in her museum. Now it's on a train going somewhere, and she knows it's not somewhere good. This is a crushing moment for Claire, isn't it, Warwick? She has had to bide her time "working" for the Nazis in the hope of being able to retrieve what they've taken, but now they're gone. Talk about this scene because it's a moving one.
Warwick Fairfax:
It sure is. Claire has done her best to passively resist the Nazis and what they try to do with the artworks in her museum. You mentioned earlier about small acts of defiance like spitting in that champagne glass at Stahl and feeling like she has to stay in that museum to keep track of what's happening. And so now, her worst nightmare is coming about. It's a devastating moment for Claire, her beloved artworks from her museum. They've been taken away without much of any hope that she'll ever see them again. Her life's mission was to protect the artworks in her museum and parish from the Nazis, and it would seem that her life mission has failed, and she may never see them again. They'll either be burnt, stolen, we don't know what's going to happen. We have to assume that she feels the situation is hopeless, and that she feels completely helpless as she sees Stahl get on that train and the train leave Paris for who knows where.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and there aren't, right? She doesn't have any fellow travelers, any people, especially in Nazi-occupied Paris who are going to side with her. In fact, as you said, many believe that she's helping the Nazis out, not because of being forced to. So very difficult situation for her to be in. And the guys who have been selected for the Monuments Men, now that they've gotten through basic training, we don't know how well they've gotten through it, but they've gotten through it.
They all have military titles now, but there's a really important scene, Warwick, where Stokes tells his men, "The Nazis are on the run, but they are taking everything with them." So he decides that they should split up, and each team should get as close to the front lines as they can to intercept any art they can as it's being moved. But before they all head out to their individual missions, Stokes speaks to them actually over a radio that they've rigged up about how important those missions are. And this is the why of the Monuments Men, this is the why of why these guys are doing what they're doing. Let's take a look and a listen to the speech that Stokes gives.
Video:
Monuments Men Radio is about to go live.
I hope we play music.
Calling London, calling London, and all the ships at sea.
We read you loud and clear.
How far will this thing reach?
We'll find out tomorrow.
Roger that.
Are all the fellas there?
They are.
All right, listen up fellas, because I think you should know the truth as I see it. This mission is never designed to succeed. If they were honest, they would tell us that. They'd tell that with this, many people die, and who cares about art? They're wrong because it's exactly what we're fighting for, for our culture and for our way of life. You can wipe out a generation of people, you can burn their homes to the ground and somehow they'll still come back. But if you destroy their achievements and their history, then it's like they never existed. It's just ash floating. That's what Hitler wants, and it's the one thing we simply can't allow.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, that was a heartfelt speech that lays out the life of significance that the Monuments Men are pursuing, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
What's powerful here is that Stokes is really inspiring his team and inspiring a team for any leader is absolutely critical. And when you inspire your team, don't sugarcoat it, tell them the unvarnished truth.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
This is very challenging. But also tell them, and obviously you want to make sure it's true or maybe you need to find another mission, but assuming it's a worthwhile mission, you've got to tell your team, "This is critical. It's important. We need to do whatever we can to accomplish it." In essence, he's really saying, Stokes is, that if you destroy people's achievements, history and culture, you destroy the very fabric of who they are. So he just lays it on the line so well in this clip.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and I'd like to think, right, these are only the Monuments Men who are hearing this on the radio, but I'd like to think if it gets out to more people, if more people hear it, just the way that it's articulated, it's so true. It's a civilizational moment, not just because is the world going to be free or is it going to be under the oppression of the Nazis, but it's also a civilizational moment because at stake are exactly what Stokes is talking about at stake. What's hangs in the balance is all of the creations, all of the ingenuity of generations of folks across countries of our civilization. I mean, he makes very clear that's an important thing to fight for, and I'd like to think that people who would hear that if they were listening in would agree.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's such a great point. It occurs to me there's a modern illustration of how people think that artworks and buildings are a symbol of their civilization, and worth doing anything to preserve them. A few years ago, the great cathedral in Paris, Notre Dame burned.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
It was pretty much burnt to the ground. There was hardly anything left. And the president of France, President Macron and all of the French people said, "This is the symbol of what it is to be French. This is the symbol of France. We will do whatever we can to rebuild it." They had some of the finest artisans in the country and probably elsewhere, all gathered together, united in a mission that might take a while, but we will recreate Notre Dame to what it was before. That's no easy mission to recreate the splendor of Notre Dame.
If this wasn't important, people would say, "Macron, why are you spending all this money and energy and time on a building? Aren't there more important things than art than buildings?" But the people of France, they got it. This is what it is to be French. This is the cathedral of Notre Dame. So even today, people realize when important symbols of culture are destroyed, you have to do whatever you can to preserve it, so yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that is what the Monuments Men are doing here in World War II. As we move on, Granger stays in Paris and meets Claire. He discovers that the French private art collections have all been confiscated by the Nazis. He asks Claire to help him find the missing art, but she doesn't trust him at this point. She's worried that the Americans want the art for themselves. Meanwhile, Richard Campbell and Preston Savitz learn that van Eyck's Ghent art piece has been removed by the priests of Ghent Cathedral for safekeeping, but their truck was stopped, and the panels that compose the art piece are taken. The men are confronted by a German soldier who holds them at gunpoint, but they escape to freedom by giving this guy this gunman, this soldier cigarettes. That's the universal language of war, cigarettes. That's how they get away from that.
And Walter Garfield and Jean-Claude Clermont find themselves coming under fire. The two men with no military experience, despite basic training, negotiate with each other over who will fire back and who will draw fire so that the other one can fire back. Who's going to be a distraction? Who's going to play offense? Who's going to play defense? They negotiate over that, and the shooter who is firing at them ends up being, well, not who they expect. Warwick, unpack this scene a little bit for folks, these scenes a little bit for folks so they can understand what's going on as the Monuments Men move forward.
Warwick Fairfax:
So yeah, I mean, these people that fall in the Monuments Men, they're art experts, curators, sculptors, architects, theater directors, they're not soldiers. This isn't Delta Force. This isn't SEAL Team Six.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, far from it, but they're in war zones. And when you're in a war zone, you might find the enemy, and they of course encounter conflict with the enemy. In the first of these two scenes, we see Campbell and Savitz, and they're outside and it's dark, and they find that there's this soldier, German soldier, and they have to use quite deft moves to defuse the situation. Now, this is a young German soldier. Nobody wants to be there. Even here, it's towards the end of the war. And what's amusing is neither of them smoke, Savitz or Campbell, but they offered this cigarette to this young German kid, really young German soldier, as they have guns pointing at each other.
And then Campbell says, "Well, let's all sit down." Somehow sitting down smoking a cigarette feels like less tense.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Somehow, this defuses the situation and this young soldier goes on his way and they're happy to just, they're not going to be pursuing him. They just got to let him go. They're not military experts here.
In the second scene, we see Garfield and Clermont talking to a priest outside of the church, and suddenly there's gunfire and they run for cover. Someone is firing at them from across the street in a second story window. So again, these aren't military people. They've got to figure out, well, what do we do? They pinned down, how do we get out of this? Garfield then sets down covering fire while Clermont runs to the building and runs upstairs to the second floor. And what he finds is this German soldier, he's just a boy. He's not even a teenager. I don't know if he's much above 10 years old. I mean, it is just horrifying. The boy is scared, and obviously he takes him away. And it's so sad, towards the end of the war, the Germans do indeed use youth, and it was seen maybe even younger than youth. They press them into service, and they don't always have a whole lot of choice, so it's just terrific this scene.
These two scenes showed that the Monuments Men, they need to find ways to deal with war, using skills that they may not have, like how to set cover and deal with the threat from this German soldier in the second story window, or using skills that they do have in the case of Campbell and Savitz, using pretty sly and cunning skills with the cigarette to defuse the situation. They're going to find all sorts of challenges, the Monuments Men, and they're going to have to find different ways to deal with them.
Gary Schneeberger:
One of the most moving scenes featuring this juxtaposition of men unfamiliar with war thrust into the thick of it comes next when Jeffries heads to Bruges to search for da Vinci's Madonna and Child, the only work of da Vinci's to leave Italy during his lifetime. He's turned away by the Allied officers when he tries to gain entrance to the cathedral, but he later sneaks in. And this scene, Warwick, which I'm going to have you talk about in a second, it really makes very stark the fact that these men who have dedicated their lives to beauty now find themselves in the thick of ugliness. So walk us through this moving and tragic scene.
Warwick Fairfax:
When Jeffries talks to the Allied commanders about saving artworks in Bruges, in particular, the statue of the Madonna and Child, the local commander, he has no interest in helping him. Jeffries is trying to convince them. Look, the Nazis sometimes blow up towns and monuments and buildings that have been around for hundreds of years, and there's this Madonna and Child statue and the church we've got to save. It's like he wants to save his troops, this local commander, not artworks, but Jeffries is so committed to the vision that he doesn't really take no for an answer.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Even though he's got no help, he is a band of one, and he just sneaks into Bruges and the church where the statue is, and he finds some priests in that church, and together they try to barricade the doors against the Germans, which they know, well, certainly Jeffries believes will certainly come. Jeffries is beside the statue trying to guard it. He has his gun out, his pistol. A German officer comes with his men and they exchange fire. The German officer ends up mortally wounding Jeffries. And as Jeffries lies dying, he writes a letter to his father really talking about from his perspective what a great disappointment has been. He referred to his drinking problem and the effect it's had in his life.
And he says in this letter, in this just heartbreaking letter to his father, that he longed, "for the chance to be back on the pedestal you so proudly placed me. Perhaps here I can make you proud again here at the foot of our Madonna."
So Jeffries here, he absolutely buys into the vision that Stokes and the Monuments Men are carrying out. He is prepared to give his life for this vision of preserving artworks and civilization. I mean, he went there to try and save and protect the statue of Madonna and Child. He must have known the chances of success is probably high, or certainly in the balance of just one man against however many Nazi troops there are there, I mean, you had to believe this is not going to be a mission that's going to be easy. Or you might even have thought, I don't know whether I'm going to survive this, whether he thought through all this, he must have known that this is not going to be an easy mission. And so in the short term, we can say that he didn't succeed. We find out that the Madonna and Child statue taken away, that he gave his life for what he believed in.
Gary Schneeberger:
Jeffries.
Warwick Fairfax:
Realized that he'd made mistakes in life, but he longed for a cause that could redeem his legacy. He says early on to Stokes, "Thank you for this opportunity." He wants redemption. He wants to turn his life in a different direction.
In fact, there's one scene in which early on Stokes asked him, "How long have you been sober?"
And he says, "Since yesterday, when you told me I'd be on this mission." It gives him a reason to be sober. What's the point? I'm here to try and save civilization. Okay, that's probably a pretty good reason to consider going sober.
So he's really tried to turn his life around, and his dying words to his father really clearly shows that his life has turned. And we would imagine that his father would've been very proud of him when I think we learned that his father hasn't really had that image of him before, so it's a touching and moving scene, it's sad, but it just shows that Jefferies is willing to give his life for this cause, and he wants his legacy to be different than just somebody that made poor choices in life. He does not want to be defined, as we say often here, by his worst day or his worst choices.
Gary Schneeberger:
And we also say often here that redemption is possible, and I think that that's what Jefferies is hoping for here. He wants redemption from the life that he believes in some ways he wasted that he talks about, and we don't know how his dad reacted, but I think we know enough about human nature to know that his dad probably did indeed offer that redemption after he found out how his son died.
The movie moves on, Granger and Claire meet again, and she seems to be softening a little bit to him. She takes him to one of the gallery's warehouses, and he sees stack after stack of discarded artwork. He asks her what it all is. She replies very simply and very sadly, "People's lives." Granger, not yet able to reunite classic art with its owners, does a touching, symbolic thing after this scene as this scene continues, doesn't he?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, he really does. Claire tries to help Granger see the personal tragedy behind these stolen artworks. These aren't just stolen artworks, they're people's stories, people's legacies, people's history. And in this warehouse of stolen artworks, when Granger asks, "What is all this?"
As you mentioned, she says, "People's lives."
And then Granger asks, "For what people?"
And she says, "Jews, Jewish people."
This hits Granger hard. In a symbolic gesture, Granger finds one piece of art, finds the place where the owner of that artwork lived. It's an apartment building. So Granger goes to that apartment and he hangs that painting back on the wall. In some ways, it's really a fruitless gesture.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
We see tragically a Star of David painted on the wall, which the Nazis did to Jewish people to their homes. This family have undoubtedly been taken to a concentration camp and may well not be alive. So you could say, "Well, what's Granger doing? He's putting this painting up in the apartment of people who are probably dead." But in a sense, that's not the point. He wants just show... He wants to do something. This gesture graphically depicts Granger's heart. He wants to unite artworks with their rightful owners. Maybe he won't be successful with this particular piece of art, but he's going to do his level best to try. It shows his heart also to Claire.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and after this scene, the movie takes a bit of a narrative detour from the plot of finding art to shining a light on finding hope and humanity amid the devastation of war. It's the Battle of the Bulge, and Campbell and Savitz are resting and going through care packages from home that they've received from home. There's food and letters, and Campbell's wife has even sent a record. And as he's taking a shower, he hears a voice over the speakers in the camp. Savitz has found a record player on which to play it. Warwick, this scene is a good reminder that amid the devastation of any crucible that we're going through, but especially in the devastation, the crucible of war, there can be compassion and humanity. Talk a little bit about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
As Campbell is taking a shower, we hear his wife who has his family around her, and she starts singing that classic Christmas tune, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, and she says Merry Christmas to her husband. So this act of compassion, it greatly moves Campbell, and I'm sure provided a lot of Christmas cheer and encouragement at the whole camp. I mean, everybody knows that classic Christmas tune, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Hear a voice from home, even if it wasn't their wives, you still a voice from home. So this scene really shows that amidst devastating and challenging times, the importance of compassion. Yes, the mission is important, but just as active compassion to his buddy, to his fellow traveler, to his fellow Monuments Men, Campbell. It's just a remarkable thing to do and just shows Savitz's heart and character.
Gary Schneeberger:
After this, the Allied forces learned that the Russians, who are technically on the side of the Allies in World War II, have created what they call a trophy brigade. And that trophy brigade is to capture and keep some of the art the Nazis have stolen and hang onto it for themselves as "reparations" for what they've lost in the war. Granger finds it hard to be upset as Stokes is upset, right? Stokes is very upset by this. Granger finds that a little hard telling Stokes, "Well, Frank, they lost 20 million people in the war."
With the Russians now looking for the same artworks the Monuments Men are looking for, Stokes tells Granger that they need to know what Claire knows to help them on their quest. Granger tells him, "I'm getting close," but he's not there yet. And then Hitler accelerates the pace even further by initiating what's called a Nero Decree, an order that if he dies, the artworks they have captured should be destroyed.
It's after all this that Campbell ends up at a German dentist. He chipped his tooth on food that was sent from home, so it's a funny scene. It starts out a little funny because he chipped his tooth and there's this not very good it seems, German dentist who's working on him. The Americans talk about their mission to the dentist, and the dentist says perhaps his nephew can help them about this art business that they're doing. The nephew turns out to be Stahl, right? Him from the first scenes of the movie, turns out to be Stahl, and the Americans recover a few pieces have already kept for himself from what the Nazis have stolen. I've raced through how all those things end, Warwick, take a slower walk through these scenes because they are integral to what happens here in The Monuments Men.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. When the Allies learned this Nero Decree, which is really named after Emperor Nero back in the time of Rome, in which you have that famous phrase, "While Nero fiddled, Rome burned," so the Nero decree is basically people get the idea. It's like this is not good. If he dies, all the artworks are going to be destroyed, which is really Stokes and the Monuments Men, their worst nightmare. So if this wasn't bad enough, so they're worried about they're racing against time to get these artworks, which if Hitler dies and the world's coming to an end, then they might all be destroyed. They're stolen, but maybe it'll be worth, they'll be destroyed.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
If that wasn't bad enough, here we have the Russians coming from the East with their trophy brigade who are going to collect and keep all these stolen artworks. The mission of the Monuments Men is to restore artwork to their rightful owners, the museum and individuals. Clearly, the Russians have a very different agenda. They want it for themselves. Maybe they feel like with having lost 20 million people in the war, which is hard to imagine. I mean, that's such a massive number, that kind of tragedy, but that's their mission. So if the mission was tough before, it's now become exponentially more difficult.
That's why sometimes in life it feels like, can my crucible get worse? Oh, it does. It gets so much worse here. The artwork could either be burnt or stolen by the Russians. So it's a huge challenge. And then in the scene afterwards, it's sort of comical in some ways. Amidst challenging circumstances, the strangest opportunities can come from that. So somehow, we have Garfield chipping a tooth on a care package. And so he finds this German dentist, as you point out, not too good.
And this German dentist is not too smart, not too observant, frankly. I don't know that he really knows what's going on. So he says, "Hey, my nephew knows all about art," and I don't know if he realized what his nephew did in the war, helped supervise his art museum in Paris and is a dedicated Nazi. So here he invites, not only talks about his nephew, he invites Garfield and Savitz to his home and on the walls of this home, maybe Stahl wasn't that smart to do that. I mean, maybe somebody will come to their house that knows about art, you never know. He has all these famous artworks and he claims they're copies. Well, these are art experts. They know that's the real thing-
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, that's not going to fly for too long.
Warwick Fairfax:
And they look on the back of one and go, "Huh? These are famous artworks."
Savitz is very smart and savvy, a lot of smart and savvy people on this team, so he says, out of nowhere, "Heil Hitler," in this loud voice.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Now, Stahl's young boys instantly leap up. I mean, they're just small kids and go, "Heil Hitler," like a Pavlovian response. They're taught when you say that, you instantly jump up.
And so they're kids, they're not thinking, "Oh, let me be careful because I don't know who these people are," they're kids. So the jig is up.
So it just shows out of nowhere. They find some valuable artworks that Stahl has stolen just because Garfield chips a tooth, and this German dentist is foolish enough to say, "Oh, my nephew knows about art. Let me take you home." I mean, it's really funny, this particular scene.
Gary Schneeberger:
And Garfield does indeed because of that, right? Have himself a merry little Christmas because that's what his wife sang on the record, so.
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, while the Monuments Men are not seeking to get into the middle of the battle, sometimes it's tough to avoid in the theater of war. Talk about that scene and how it shows that to be true.
Warwick Fairfax:
So here we have Garfield and Clermont. They get lost somewhere in the countryside. There are woods all over the place, and unfortunately they stumble into almost a hornet's nest. There are Allied troops on one side and German troops on the other, and they're about to fire at each other, and they don't know what's going on because both sides are hidden in the woods and there's farm line in between them. We see Garfield and Clermont that stopped their vehicle. Garfield gets out, and right in front of him, it feels like a foot or two away, sees a whole bunch of German troops hidden, and they're not quite ready to fire yet because they don't want the Allied troops to know what's happening. And it's obviously a deer in the headlights moment for Garfield. He tries to signal to Clermont to get back in the vehicle and leave.
And really before they can leave, both sets of troops start firing each other, and so they race back to the vehicle just to really get out of the line of fire. Sadly, Clermont is wounded and he is fatally wounded, so the Monuments Men have now lost their second member. They lost Jeffries before trying to protect that statue, the Madonna and Child at that church in Belgium, and now Clermont has been lost also. This really shows that this mission is an important mission, and their team is literally dying for the cause.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And they're willing to die for what they believe in. This is dying for art, which is really incredible when you think about it, but they believe that they're trying to save Western civilization, at least the symbol of it in the artworks that they're trying to defend and preserve.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and after this death, after losing another of his men, Stokes begins to muse about whether his team can really call themselves soldiers. This is a moving and meaningful scene, isn't it, Warwick?
Warwick Fairfax:
It certainly is. Stokes says to his team, the Monuments Men, that there were questions when the group was forming about whether they were really soldiers, whether they were risking their lives the way the other soldiers were. And Stokes says, "We're no longer observers. We're active participants who subject to the same heartache that the rest of the soldiers are. He says, when we lost Donald Jefferies, we earned the right to wear the uniform. Now we've lost our second man." In other words, Clermont. "From the beginning I told you that no piece of art was worth a man's life, but these last months have proved me wrong. This is our history, and it's not to be stolen or destroyed, it's to be held up and admired, as with these brave men, and now we owe it to them to finish the job."
So Stokes is not just reinforcing the vision, but this mission is growing in importance even to him. He now believes that saving art and history is worth dying for, even if their own men have to die for this mission, the Monuments Men. And what's interesting is that all the Monuments Men, they agree that this mission is worth dying for.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So much so that when Stokes says to Garfield, who saw Clermont die in his arms, and that's a pretty horrific thing to have gone through, he says, in a moment of grace, Stokes says to Garfield, "Look, why don't you go back to the US, get some R&R just to recover."
And Garfield says, "I'm not going. I want to stay and finish this." It's a clear message that Stokes's men, the Monuments Men are completely with him, and they believe that this mission is literally worth dying for.
Gary Schneeberger:
The Monuments Men then, Warwick, discover how the Nazis have been hiding the art, a major breakthrough in their mission. They have been using mines to store it, salt mines, copper mines, et cetera. They first go to the copper mine in Siegen. They find a brick wall in front of the salt mine, and once they get through it, they find vast amounts of artworks. They actually find 6,000 pieces of artwork. Warwick, that's a huge breakthrough for the Monuments Men, and a really important scene, unpack that a little bit for us.
Warwick Fairfax:
We learned that Stokes gets a map off an SS officer that is, as you say, a major break in the case. This map shows that the Nazis have hidden the artworks in salt mines at key locations throughout Germany. Before, they knew that the Nazis are stealing artworks, but they don't know where, where in the world are they going to find this? Where in the world are they going to find these artworks? So now they know where, this map shows that there are key salt mines throughout Germany where they're hiding these artworks, but they're in a race against time before the artworks are destroyed by the Nazis, because remember, with this Nero Directive, this is getting towards the end of the war.
If Hitler dies, then they may well be destroyed before they can get to these salt mines. And if they can't get to the salt mines first, assuming the Nazis don't destroy them, then the Russians might get there first, capture them and bring it back to Russia. So I mean, the mission keeps getting harder. So it's a huge challenge. But as we'll learn with Stokes and the Monuments Men, they're up to the challenge.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Very few challenges that they can't meet.
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed.
Gary Schneeberger:
For sure. Next, what happens is that Granger is called from Paris to Germany. They need him now in Germany now that they know where the artworks are being stored. He meets with Claire before he leaves, and she tells him all that she knows. This is an enormous break in the case, as it were, for what the Monuments Men are doing. All this information that she gives him, Warwick, it really changes the trajectory of their whole mission. Talk about that and just what the value of what she tells Granger.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. Claire asked Granger to come for dinner at her apartment, and she tells him to dress formally. Well, I guess he left his tuxedo at home. I guess that's not in his kit bag, I suppose, and never know when you'll need it on the battlefield. But yeah, it just, obviously doesn't have it. So he wears the nicest thing he has, a nice shirt and a nice pair of pants, and she says, "Well, this is not formal enough," she happens to have a jacket and a tie, which he gives him. And so now he's appropriately attired and he tells her that he has to look for the artworks at a mine in Merkers.
She's read in the paper about what the Monuments Men have done at the mine in Siegen. She also reads in the paper that they've returned the artwork to their rightful owners, which is exactly what Claire would hope would happen. Her goal, her mission is to preserve the artworks and see that the rightful owners have them back in their possession, so now she clearly believes in Granger and in the mission of the Monuments Men. So Claire, then in this remarkable act of trust, she hands him her most treasured possession, a notebook, which he says is all she has, and she says that this is her life. A notebook is her life.
In this notebook, it lists every piece of art that came through her museum in Paris. It has train manifests and receipts, who each artwork belonged to, and who took it and where they took it. I mean, Granger is so grateful and he is awestruck with what he's received. He knows why this is so important. He's an art curator, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, and Claire then tells him that there is this castle in Germany, Neuschwanstein where most of the artwork should be. So this act of trust by Claire in Granger, in the Monuments Men is remarkable.
And this notebook that she gives Granger is just graphic evidence of how much she trusts Granger. And as we'll see, Stokes and the Monuments Men, they know about the salt mines. At this point, they did not know about the fact that Neuschwanstein, this magnificent castle in Bavaria in southern Germany is where a whole bunch of other artworks would be. But they learn the fact that there are artworks at Neuschwanstein directly because of, she's a remarkable part of the story. And it's Claire, who was skeptical for so long, is finally convinced the Monuments Men and Granger are for real. It's not about bringing artworks back to America or Britain or wherever, it's about bringing those artworks back to their rightful owners. It's a remarkable scene.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and something about Claire just crossed my mind as you were talking about her giving Granger a jacket and a tie. When we first meet Claire, she's in the art gallery and she's under the thumb of the Nazis who are making her do stuff in it, that she has a jacket and tie lying around, that Paris had been under Nazi control for so long. Makes me wonder, maybe she had a husband and maybe they killed him because why else would she have a jacket and a tie just laying, just lying around to give there. And I think whether it's not said in the film, but it does maybe inform a little bit of just how both sad she is, how defiant she is in the face of the Germans who have stolen her life from her, and how she wants to get back at them. I mean, that's, any perspective on that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's so true. One of the things we learn is I believe she has a brother, Peter I think, in which she learns from Stahl, who actually is, I guess before the Nazis pull out, is uninvited, come to her apartment and tells her that he knows that her brother is with the resistance. Clearly, he suspects that she is with the resistance, but she's so valuable in terms of knowledge of art at the museum that she's too valuable to do away with, send to a concentration camp, understands what he would do with her. But she knows at that point that her brother is, she knows what happened to her brother, whether he was going to be killed, captured, what's going to happen. So yeah, she has to deal with a lot of tragedy in her life, but that doesn't really dissuade her for pursuing her mission to save the artworks in the museum and save the artworks for their rightful owners.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Well, next the men find out that they find more than a hundred tons of gold bullion in a salt mine in Merkers. It's now April 1945. Who do you think gets credit for finding all of that stuff? Well, the next scene, right? The next part of that scene as it plays out, tells us, we see the top leaders of the US military in Europe Generals Patton, Bradley, and Eisenhower giving a news conference or something like a news conference sitting for newsreels doing something. They're talking to press about finding this a hundred tons of gold bullion. Monuments Men don't seem to get credit for that.
After this, we see German officers and soldiers go to the Heilbronn mine. There are vast amounts of paintings there. There are soldiers with flamethrowers who are burning enormous amounts of priceless paintings just holding the flamethrowers. You've seen it folks in movies before. They're just torching all of this priceless stuff. The Monuments Men are now in this mine looking at the burnt remains, one of which is the frame of a Picasso painting. Then while in this mine, the men find a large stash of gold fillings from teeth, which the men realize came from Jews who were either murdered or sent to concentration camps. Warwick, these are terrible scenes, moving scenes. Talk about them and about what in the arc of this story, why these scenes are so meaningful.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean this shows they're having some success. They're finding artworks, and in this case, gold bullion in Merkers. Predictably, the top US military brass are there taking credit as any military brass would for finding a hundred tons of gold bullion. And they say to themselves, "Well, the brass are going to turn up for gold bullion, not for artworks. They care about gold. What about the art?"
Gary Schneeberger:
Exactly right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And there's some sort of cynical grumbling about it and it's understandable what they're saying. And then we move on from the Merkers mine to the scene in the Heilbronn mine, and it is tragic for two very different reasons because this is the mine where the Monuments Men find that their worst fears are realized. The Nazis have burnt vast amounts of priceless artworks. This is something that can't be recovered. As everything Stokes said, "Once artworks are destroyed, you cannot get that part of civilization back." It's irrecoverable, and so part of their worst fears are realized, and if that wasn't bad enough, then they find this small room which was sort of a hidden room, it's not very obvious what was in there.
And they find this large container of small pieces of gold. At first, not all of them know what it is, just bits of gold. But then one of them says, "These are actually gold teeth filings."
I mean, it hit them that this mine shows really evidence of the Holocaust, that and how evil the Nazis are. They don't just destroy priceless artworks. They kill millions of Jewish people, and they save their gold tooth fillings. I mean, this is a vast container. It's massive, with enormous numbers of gold teeth fillings in it. So it's sobering to say the least on the Monuments Men, and I'm sure it makes them feel like what we're doing to oppose the Nazis at any way we can and our bit of this whole mission of this war is to try to save these priceless artworks and bring them back to their rightful owners, in a number of cases, these owners, the Jewish people. Maybe those individual Jewish people might not live, but there might be relative somewhere, whether it's America or England or somewhere that we can hand these artworks to. I'm sure they're thinking we've got to do whatever we can to get these artworks back, including to the Jewish owners, do whatever we can to help.
Gary Schneeberger:
The team then heads to Neuschwanstein, which is where Claire told them that the artworks from her museum have been sent. The team finds priceless pieces there, matching what is in her notebook. There are large numbers of statues there, including a bronze statue by Rodin. Warwick, unpack that scene a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
This is really the realization of Claire's dream. Her part in this was to try to preserve the artworks that were in her museum in Paris. She has this notebook, she gives it to Granger, and here's Granger and the team. Here they are in Neuschwanstein and there are this, enormous numbers of statues. There's actually a Rodin bronze statue, and when they look at that notebook, it shows exactly where all the pieces are and they're there in Neuschwanstein. It's an amazing scene.
Gary Schneeberger:
While there, they find in the ledgers that the Ghent Altarpiece is in a mine in Altaussee. The crew then races to that mine to get the Ghent artwork. Warwick, again, I love this part of the show because I get to talk just not as much and you get to talk about the really meaningful stuff here. So talk about this scene.
Warwick Fairfax:
The climax of the movie, it really happens at the mine in Altaussee. This is the first time we actually see or at least hear of Germans helping the Monuments Men, hasn't happened in the movie yet, but some of the local miners have exploded the entrances to this mine to prevent the Nazis from destroying the artworks. And so there's just a bunch of rocks and rubble in blocking the entrances to the mine so the Nazis haven't been able to get at it, it would seem.
Now, on their way over as they head towards Altaussee, they find a soldier in his Jeep and the soldier in this Jeep says, "The war's over, and the Germans have surrendered," but the soldier also tells them that the Russians are going to be there at the mine the next day, and of course, could it possibly get worse? And it does.
The soldier then says the territory, this part of Germany where Altaussee is, that's the part of Germany that's going to be Russian territory. Now, as folks may know, when the war's over and the Cold War begins, Germany is divided into East Germany and West Germany. I would imagine Altaussee is going to be part of what will become East Germany, so the Russians are obviously, they don't give up territory once they get it. This is very sobering for the Monuments Men, it truly is a race against time. They need to get the artworks out of the Altaussee mine before the Russians get there, and they have almost no time, it's the next day.
They race to the Altaussee mine, and obviously they've first got to find a way to get past the rubble, which they do, and they're trying to get the artworks out as feverishly as they can. And so they've hoped that the Ghent Altarpiece is in that mine. That's what the ledgers at Neuschwanstein say that it should be there. And they don't know where the Madonna and Child statue is, but they're hoping they can find it at some point. And so this is where the perseverance of the Monuments Men pays off. Sometimes you feel like, where am am I going? Am I getting anywhere? Well, sometimes perseverance pays off, and it surely does here with the Monuments Men.
Not only do they get all the artworks out, they find the Ghent Altarpiece, one of the humorous episodes of this movie. This movie has both a lot of tragedy but some humorous moments, so one of the humorous moments we find Garfield and Savitz looking at a map of the mind trying to figure out where in the heck is this last panel of the altarpiece again. And one of them I think drops something, I think it might be Garfield. And he is trying to find it underneath this makeshift table. This makeshift table turns out to be one of the panels. He says, "Hey buddy, can you help me with this?" Because it's heavy. And lo and behold, they find the missing panel.
So when you least expect it, look what happens. That's great. They find the Ghent Altarpiece, and everyone is leaving, but Stokes is still there and it's like, "We need to leave. The Russians are coming." I mean literally, the Russians are coming. They're almost there, but Stokes is not willing to give up.
Finally, miraculously, he finds the Madonna and Child statue. It's in a mine car covered by some tarpaulin, and he is awestruck. It takes him a beat to get his wits about him and he yells to the team, "I found it. Let's get this thing out of here." It needs a whole bunch of people to push this heavy mine car.
They get the Madonna and Child statue, the artwork, the Ghent Altarpiece, they get them all out. We see that Stokes and the rest of the Monuments Men, they're leaving in a convoy of trucks towing behind the Madonna and Child and the Ghent Altarpiece. The mission of the Monuments Men have been accomplished and they've got the artworks, the Ghent Altarpiece, the Madonna and Child and comically, they leave a US flag over the mine entrance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
The Russian officer who's been, we see him now and again throughout the movies, he tries to find artworks, see this Russian officer looking up at the US flag, and there's a slight smirk on his face. You know when you lose, it's like well played. He appreciates may have lost to the opposition, which is what it's becoming between the Allies and the Russians. But yeah, well played if you will with the smirk on his face.
Gary Schneeberger:
The movie ends where it began, with Stokes addressing the US President. Only Franklin Delano Roosevelt had passed away before the war was over, and he was succeeded by his Vice President Harry Truman, who is now the president. That's who Stokes is talking to as he's debriefing the president of the US about the mission of the Monuments Men. Warwick, this scene reveals just how successful this mission was. Difficult, sure, but successful, this mission was in more ways than one, doesn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It really does. So here we have Stokes, the war's over, and he's meeting with Truman and some of Truman's key team, and he's outlining everything they've accomplished. Stokes tells him everything from paintings to sculptures to tapestries, even jewelry is being returned. He says it's the greatest collection of private art in the history of the world. We have found 5,000 church bells, 300 trolley cars, 3 million books, and thousands of Torahs, which is a Jewish religious book that you use in synagogue. He says that there were over 5 million pieces of art recovered. He tells Truman that there are more great artworks that are missing, and with Truman's permission, he would like to keep looking for them.
When Truman learns that Stokes has lost men, Clermont and Jefferies, he asked Stokes if it was worth it for a piece of art. And then he asked Stokes if he thinks Jefferies, one of the two men that were lost were killed, he asked Stokes if Jefferies would think it was worth it if he could speak, and Stokes says he thinks Jefferies would think it was worth it. So then Truman asked Stokes whether he thinks 30 years from now anyone is going to remember that these men died for a piece of art. It's an interesting question.
And the movie flashes forward 30 years. So now we see Stokes as an old man. He's 1977, and he is in a church in Bruges, Belgium, and he's looking at the Madonna and Child, and Stokes as an old man, answers Truman's question. The question is anybody going to remember what you did for art, that men died for art 30 years from now? And Stokes, an older man, says yes. In other words, people will remember that these men died for a piece of art and that they sacrifice was worth it. It's a great way to end the movie. It makes it clear that this mission will be remembered in history and it's worth it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, two things I'll say. Here's the third of the eight movies we've done that I worked on when I was a publicist in Hollywood. First thing is the actor, the individual playing the elder Stokes is in fact the elder Clooney. It's George Clooney's dad, Nick Clooney, who was a television host for several years, a couple decades ago, so that's why he looks so much like George Clooney, folks. It's George Clooney's dad, and we made a little bit out of that in our promotion of the film.
The other thing, in our promotion of the film, I'm going to hold this up. We make graphics that folks could use in social media about the work of the Monuments Men, and it does indeed say here that they did recover 5 million pieces of art. But it's interesting about the real life Monuments Men, and I'm going to have to fold this and get really close to read it because it's small type, but it says this, "The real life Monuments Men were a group of nearly 350 men and women from 13 nations who worked to protect monuments and other cultural treasures from the destruction of World War II."
So these individuals in the movie represent those, that larger group of 350 men and women who worked on this from 13 different countries, just really a true global effort to save civilization, both while the military was saving civilization from Nazi rule, the Monuments Men were saving civilization from losing its great and gorgeous history.
Warwick, I'm going to end this the way we've ended every one of these episodes in this eight part series. It's kind of sad. I'm a little bummed. It's sad to be honest with you that this is the end of the line. The last time I'm going to ask you a question about Big Screen, Big Crucibles. But here's the question: how does The Monuments Men offer hope and inspiration to move beyond our own crucibles, and how our pursuit of a life of significance can keep us going even when trials and setbacks come? What would you say is the greatest bit of inspiration The Monuments Men offers?
Warwick Fairfax:
Sometimes we have a mission or a cause that we think is critically important, but others may not see it that way. Frank Stokes and the Monuments Men believe that saving priceless artworks from being taken or destroyed by the Nazis, or being taken by the Russians was a cause worth dying for. Stokes believed that saving artworks was a part of saving our heritage, our civilization. When we believe so much in our cause, our life of significance, we're not always going to find that others believe that that's important.
They might say, "Well, okay, good for you, whatever."
And we might feel like we're a voice in the wilderness crying out, saying, "But this is important. I'm going to give my life to this cause."
Maybe we'll find very few fellow travelers, maybe we'll find none. And so it's not easy. But whether we have one fellow traveler or none, whether we find that nobody really believes in our mission or cause if we believe it's important enough, then we've got to find a way to move on, dig deep and fight for what we believe in, even if others, they may not just think, it doesn't matter, they may not agree, they might completely disagree in our and what we're doing, but you've got to really stand up and fight for what you believe in even if others either ignore it or even think it's wrong, stand up for what you believe in. And that's what this movie shows.
Frank Stokes and the Monuments Men, they fought to save artworks from being destroyed and stolen. They fought to make sure these artworks were brought back to their original owners as best they could, or at least I'm sure their family members. That's a noble mission, and clearly as we saw in the movie, there were countless Allied commanders that were like, "We don't think this mission is worth dying for, and so we're not going to help you," time and time again. And sometimes life is like that, sometimes we will not just be ignored, we will not be supported at all by those that we know in a mission that we feel like that we're off the charts passionate about is our life of significance. But we need to find a way to persevere and move on, even if others may not agree and may not support us.
Gary Schneeberger:
Cut and print. That is a wrap on Big Screen, Big Crucibles. If you enjoyed this, these episodes, we ask you to share them on social media, share them with your friends, let people know about it. We would ask you to like us both on the podcast app you listen to, and on YouTube where you watch, our YouTube channel, subscribe to those places so that you can get every episode of this podcast, Beyond the Crucible, that we do.
Now, I usually say at the end of an episode, "We'll see you next week." We won't see you next week because next week there's been a lot of work. Folks, we're going to take a week off. Next week, Warwick and I are going to take a week off, but we will be back with all new episodes on September 9th. So mark that on your calendar, just a couple of weeks. We'll be back on September 9th. Thank you for spending this time with us. And remember, your crucible experiences are not the end of your story. Not at all. Your worst day doesn't define you. You can indeed, like all of these individuals we've spoken about in our summer series, you can overcome those crucibles and lead a life of significance.
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