Renewal and restoration. Those are the things to focus on, not resolutions, as a new year begins. That’s what we discuss this week as we dive into Warwick’s latest blog at beyondthecrusible.com
The key to arriving at this more helpful destination to recharge our lives in 2026 involves such strategic actions as asking yourself if anything is holding you back, considering your beliefs and values and then — and only then — setting specific goals and objectives.
That’s what will fuel your journey to a life of significance.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
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👉 Follow Warwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/warwickfairfax/
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible, I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. When we talk about the new year, we talk about renewal and restoration, it's so important. Goals and objectives are fine but start with who do I authentically want to be, how do I want to show up in the world, how do I want to make a difference at home or at work.
Gary Schneeberger:
Renewal and restoration, those are the things to focus on not resolutions as a new year begins. That's what we discuss this week as we take a deep dive into Warwick's latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com The key to arriving at this more helpful destination to recharge our lives in 2026 involves such strategic actions as asking yourself if anything is holding you back, considering your beliefs and values and then, and only then, adding specific goals and objectives, that's what will fuel your journey to a life of significance. Welcome, friends, to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. This is, I'm going to add this in here, it begins the wind down, the kickdown, the clock's ticking, the ball's dropping to our 300th episode, we're not there yet but it's coming soon and you're going to like it. I think you're going to like it, that milestone 300th episode. But this episode is another one of those that we do where Warwick and I discuss his most recent blog at https://www.google.com/search?q=beyondecrucible.com. And this blog, you might say, allowed you to really dial into renewal as we begin 2026, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, Gary. And the reason I focused on renewal and restoration as opposed to resolutions—and they're fine, there's nothing wrong with them—but often we start with the "what" and the "how." "I'm going to run five miles a day," "I'm going to eat less sugar," "I'm going to work harder to get that promotion." All fine, but they're often external. What I find is that if we don't start with the "who"—who are we, what do we value, what is our purpose—then those resolutions often fail because they're not grounded in anything substantive. Renewal is about looking at the foundation. Is the foundation cracked? Does it need some work? Restoration is bringing back what was intended to be there in the first place. It's a much more profound way to start a year than just a checklist of things to do.
Gary Schneeberger:
And you talk in the blog about three strategic actions, three reflection points. The first one you mentioned is asking yourself if anything is holding you back. This isn't just about physical habits; it's about the internal landscape, isn't it? It's about those crucibles that might still be casting a shadow or those limiting beliefs we carry around.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. We all carry baggage. Some of it is from recent crucibles, some of it is from childhood. If you don't acknowledge what's holding you back—be it fear, a lack of forgiveness, or a belief that you're not "enough"—then no amount of goal-setting is going to fix that. You have to clear the ground before you can build something new. That's the first step of renewal: what do I need to let go of? What weights am I carrying that are preventing me from running the race I'm meant to run?
Gary Schneeberger:
The second point you make is considering your beliefs and values. This is the "who" you were talking about. In the blog, you emphasize that these aren't just words on a page; they're the compass for your life. If your goals aren't aligned with your values, you'll feel a sense of friction even if you're "successful" by the world's standards.
Warwick Fairfax:
That friction is a clear sign of a lack of alignment. If I value family but my goals are all about working 80 hours a week to get a title, I'm going to be miserable. Part of renewal is checking that compass. Are my values still what I think they are? Have I drifted? To live a life of significance, your actions must be an extension of your core beliefs. When they are, you have a natural energy and peace because you're living authentically.
Gary Schneeberger:
And then the third point, which you summarized as "just do it," but with a twist. It's not just blind action; it's action focused on who you want to become. You mentioned celebrating small wins. Why is that small-win mentality so important in this journey of restoration?
Warwick Fairfax:
Because restoration is a process, not an event. If you're restoring an old house or a classic car, you don't do it in an afternoon. You celebrate when the engine starts, or when the first room is painted. It's the same with our lives. If you want to become a more patient person, or a more present leader, celebrate the one conversation where you actually listened instead of interrupting. Those small wins build momentum. They prove to you that change is possible and that you are becoming more of who you were always intended to be. That's a great place to put a bow on the package that is this episode of Beyond the Crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, we will be back with you next week with more stories of folks who have gone through crucibles, bounced back from crucibles and are now living that great destination we love talking about and that is a life of significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist, instead you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for and, crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
At the beginning of a new year, we often think of goals and objectives we want to accomplish in the 12 months ahead. They could be work objectives, health or relationship objectives. Goals and objectives can be helpful. But just focusing on specific targets or things we want to accomplish may lead us to overlook deeper questions. Who do we want to become? How do we want to show up?
As the year begins, we have the opportunity to ask ourselves some thought-provoking questions. Who do we want to be? What is important to us? What do we want to let go of? What do we want to do more of? What beliefs and values do we want to embrace more and live out more?
This is what renewal is. Shedding what does not serve us and holds us back and embracing that which helps us move forward and become more of who we were intended to be.
So let’s talk about how we become more authentically who we want to be, and in that sense experience renewal.
1. Put aside for now defining specific goals and objectives for the year. That may come later. Let’s first look at the deeper issues before getting into metrics, focusing more on who you want to become. Without doing some soul work first, there will be a tendency to have goals and objectives that continue the path you are on.
2. Ask yourself whether anything is holding you back. It could be resentment and anger over past relationships. It could be about failure or things that were done to you. You might have a hard time moving forward, because you find yourself often dwelling on the pain, anger and resentments of the past.
3. Forgive and move on. As has been said, that which does not serve you, you should consider letting go. Forgive past hurts, either forgiving yourself or forgiving others (which does not mean condoning). The past is in the rear-view mirror. Focus forward, and stop ruminating and regretting past mistakes and failures.
4. Consider your beliefs and values. What would your life look like if you were fully living in light of them? How would that affect your career and vocational path? How would that affect your relationships and family? How would that affect how you show up in the world?
5. Evaluate how far away you are from living a life that is fully in line with your beliefs and values. Be honest. Ask friends and family what they think. Ask them to be honest.
6. Do something about it. We have one life to live, one legacy to leave. Let’s make our life count and leave a legacy that our family and friends will be proud of. Maybe that means changing your career path. Maybe that means staying in your current career, but showing up very differently, treating those you work with and for differently than before. Maybe that means paying more attention to your family and friends and your close relationships. This might mean prioritizing your family, which could have career- limiting consequences. So be it, if that’s what is important to you. To do otherwise is not living a life in line with your beliefs and values.
7. Now you are ready to set goals and objectives. But these may well be different than before. They will focus on measuring how you are becoming more of who you feel called to be. So, for instance, if you want to prioritize family more, start measuring how many sports games and other activities you were present at in a given week or month. What is the pattern? Were you present for your family, or were you traveling for work most of the month, just like you did the month before?
Life is more about becoming than about doing. Joy and fulfillment come from fully living a life in light of your beliefs and values, and becoming the person you were always intended to be and were called to be. Achieving specific career and monetary objectives may give you pleasure for a time, but it does not last. That kind of joy fades and we fall into the illusion that the next promotion or the next monetary level will make us happy. It never does, not in the lasting sense.
Joy and fulfillment come more from living in light of your values and beliefs. At Beyond The Crucible we believe joy and fulfillment come from living a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. It comes from seeing someone you work with grow and achieve their dreams. It comes from loving and supporting our family members. It comes from making an impact for good in the world, no matter how large or small. It comes from laying your head down at night and saying to yourself that today was a good day. I helped someone. I encouraged someone. I made a difference.
That is where true joy and fulfillment comes from. It comes from immense gratitude for the journey of helping others and fully living who you want to be. Some days will be easier than others. Some days we will feel like we really made a difference. Some days we will think we did not do much to help anyone or have an impact. But overall we will feel that we are doing our utmost to live in light of our values and beliefs and in some way to make the world a better place. That is enough. We can be immensely grateful for the journey we are on, and for those who are spiritual or look to a higher power, we feel grateful to God or however we see eternity for the journey we are on.
This is what a life of significance is all about.
Reflection
1. Ask yourself who you want to become. If you were fully living in light of your values and beliefs, what would that look like?
2. What do you need to do less of, and be less of; and what do you need to do more of and be more like to live a legacy that your friends and family would be proud of?
3. Just do it! Set some goals and targets that focus more on who you want to become in your career and vocation and in your family and relationships. Celebrate each small win as you become more of who you were always intended to be.
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
From coaching CEOs of Fortune 500 companies to transforming the mindsets of sports teams, David Nurse specializes in helping high achievers break through barriers, unlock their flow state and discover the untapped potential that’s already within them.
What sets Nurse apart is his ability to make mindset transformation relatable and actionable. He delivers real tools that companies and individuals can immediately apply to maximize performance, culture, and creativity, unlocking the mystery of mindset optimization.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Don’t forget to subscribe for more leadership and personal growth insights: https://www.youtube.com/@beyondthecrucible
👉 Follow Beyond the Crucible on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beyondthecrucible
👉 Follow Warwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/warwickfairfax/
👉 Follow Beyond the Crucible on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beyondthecrucible
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond The Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible.
David Nurse:
I believe life is this long hallway, right? So, if you're listening, imagine a long hallway. You're at the start of the hallway, you look down that hallway, and there's doors on each side. And everything that we do is learning, teaching us, preparing us for the next thing along the path.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, David Nurse, explaining just one of the mindset practices that will help us get from setback to significance. He's a former NBA assistant coach, listened closely to learn what he helped the Brooklyn Nets accomplish, whose insights have helped thousands across the globe take action and live with alignment.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, it's so great to have you here, David, and loved reading your book, Pivot & Go: The 29-Day Mindset Blueprint to Redefine and Achieve YOUR Success. I know that's your first book. You've got a couple other books since. And just a little bit about David. So, David, for the past 15 years, has been blessed to help the world's top performers unlock the zone and actually stay there. So, that's Fortune 500 CEOs, NBA All Stars, elite military units, Hollywood A-listers. And growing up as well here, David chased his own dream to be a professional basketball player. And that led him to have two Guinness World Records, which we'll have to find out about. The stint with the Brooklyn Nets in 2016, and he helped take their three point shooting from 28th and the league to second, which is very impressive. He's worked with over 150 NBA players, three books, Pivot & Go, Breakthrough and Do It, and has also been rated as one of the top 50 keynote speakers in the world. And he is married to his wife, an actress Taylor Kalupa. And very briefly on Taylor, she's been in a number of programs such as The Fix, Modern Family and Chosen. And I'm one of these people, not that many of us, but at least guys that like both Hallmark and Great American Family, she wrote a Christmas movie called Christmas Less Travel that I really enjoyed.
David Nurse:
Oh, nice.
Warwick Fairfax:
About Old Red, the Red Pickup. Great movie. So, well done, Taylor. Not only she's a-
David Nurse:
Oh, nice.
Warwick Fairfax:
... wonderful actress, she's a great script writer. So, well done.
David Nurse:
I mean, yeah, she's awesome.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, there you go. You can tell Taylor... When I think of Taylor, I think of Big Red and Christmas Less Travel. So, there you go. So, David, tell us a bit about growing up. I know you grew up in Iowa in a small town and your dream very early on was to be an NBA player. A lot of kids think that and their parents are thinking, sure. But just tell us about what life was like in Iowa and that dream that just animated your young life and yeah.
David Nurse:
Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes it's a blessing to have incompetent confidence to an extent. And my parents were so encouraging and I told them I wanted to play in the NBA from as early as I could remember. So, every waking hour was centered around basketball, shooting in my driveway when it was snowing in Iowa, going to any camp that I could. They probably should have said play tennis or golf, something that a 6-foot 2 guy with a vertical leap about two inches would have had a better chance at. But I just loved it. And I think there's something really important from a young age of chasing your dreams and something you're passionate about. It led me to play college basketball and led me to play professionally overseas. Now, I always thought I was still going to play in the NBA when I was playing professionally overseas in more of a Will Ferrell semi-pro type of league, as you know, work in Australia where I was at, but...
Warwick Fairfax:
And what was the name of the team in Australia in Adelaide?
David Nurse:
Yeah, Adelaide. The Adelaide Bearcats. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Great night.
David Nurse:
It was such a fun experience. I mean, I think the life experiences I got to be able to see the world through basketball was probably more of a blessing than I ever had imagined. Now, I wanted to play in the NBA and still had those dreams, but when the doors shut in my third year of playing professional basketball in Northern Spain in the Basque region where they don't even speak Spanish actually, it's a wake-up call. It was a moment that I had that I got cut from the team and I go back home and I'm living on my parents' recliner chair. They're living outside of Kansas City in the time in a small town of Missouri. And I'm a big believer in these moments in our lives. I call them snapshot moments where you can remember vividly exactly where you were, what was said. And they're moments, they're pivotal moments that give you this opportunity to take one of two paths. I was feeling bad for myself. I was sleeping on my parents' recliner chair for about six months. I didn't have any backup plans. I probably should have had some backup plans in college of like, "Hey, what if the NBA doesn't work out?" But I didn't. So, my mom was doing dishes and I remember this vividly and I was kicked back in the recliner chair and she said, "David, when one door closes, four open and an entire beachfront patio overlooking the ocean." I was like, "Mom, what? Come again. I thought it was one door, one door. What's this beachfront patio and these four doors thing?" What she was telling me is that everything that I'd done to that point to play in the NBA was learning these transferable skills that I could use for something else. My path that God had planned for me was not to play in the NBA, but it was to coach, to help players who had more God-given ability and athleticism and height than I did. So, I made my pivot moment, hence the name pivot and go, these snapshot moments where you get the chance to either keep running into this wall that's ahead of you or pivot to the next thing. I believe life is this long hallway, right? So, if you're listening, imagine a long hallway. You're at the start of the hallway, you look down that hallway and there's doors on each side. And everything that we do is learning, teaching us, preparing us for the next thing along the path, along the hallway. We go into one door. My door was professional basketball with air quotes, and I learned from that. The next door is, I want to coach in the NBA. So, I went all in. I hand wrote a letter to every NBA GM because I had no NBA connections at the time. I did it old school style. I put it in the mailbox and I sent it out. I didn't get anything back. Month and a half goes by, I get a phone call, 310 area code number. It was the GM of the LA Clippers. His name was Gary Sachs. And it was the nicest guy. I think he did it just because he just has such a good soul. It was a quick conversation. At the end of it, he said, "Look, if you're ever in LA, look me up, we'll grab coffee." Basically, "Good luck with the rest of your life, kid." But that door was opened, right? He gave that opportunity. So, I took that opportunity. I spent all my money, I stole some of my parents' money to be able to book a ticket, to go out to LA that following week, acting like I was going to do a basketball camp so I didn't look desperate. But I prepared for that meeting and Gary and I, we hit it off. That was the entry point to every connection that led to throughout the NBA, which is now friends with almost every team, eventually led to coaching with the Brooklyn Nets. So, the story is, it's much longer and we'll get to that crucible moment with the Nets when I thought That I'd made it and when I was thinking I was a little bit too big for my britches there. But the point of it is like everybody has these moments, everybody, when you think what you wanted was taken away. Nothing just happens easily. God doesn't do it that way. We have to learn, we have to grow. And that was my moment where I was like, "Hey, feel bad for yourself for getting cut from your dreams that didn't work out or pivoted to something even better and reaching out, taking that chance, even though I didn't know, like Gary could have never got back to me." Nobody could have got back to me, but I would have been at the same spot, you know what I mean? I think life is about taking those chances, taking those shots and knowing that what's the worst that can happen, that somebody says no, and then you're at the same spot that you are. So, to be able to get to that spot, the NBA connections, it happened through other people and Gary was that one for me.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's really a remarkable story. And you write a lot in your book about resilience. I mean, talk about that earlier crucible when your whole dream was to be an NBA player. I mean, 6'2" doesn't sound that short, but obviously in basketball, it's a different average high. And I remember you write something funny. I think the pediatrician promised your mom or parents you're going to be 6'7". And it's like, seriously, how could you be five inches wrong? Because that could have made a difference. And you played in Spain, Australia. I think your dad was a coach for a... To be honest, I didn't grow up with the NBA, but an NBA D level, one level below the NBA. And even he said, basically, "Sorry kid, I got to cut you." It's like you're an uncle...
David Nurse:
As an uncle, yeah. I hope my dad wouldn't do that to me, but my uncle did.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it's like, are you serious? So, when you realized that you were playing countries all over the world and you were not going to have a career playing basketball, how did you deal with that? Because that original dream ended then. A lot of people would just get very angry, very bitter, and not even think of pivoting to coaching. How did you decide not to just be angry and bitter and say, "This is so unfair. 6'2" is not that short. Come on, I can shoot, which obviously we'll get to later"? I mean, what's the problem here? How did you not get bitter and angry about the whole thing?
David Nurse:
Yeah. I mean, I think at the end of the day, my hope and trust is in Jesus. That's the choice that I made when I was 22 years old, that his plan is better than my plans. Sure, I'm going to go for it and have my dreams and stuff. But even if I feel bad for myself, which I totally did, it wasn't a quick bounce back like, "Hey, okay, that didn't work. I'm onto the next." I felt the feelings and everything, but I also knew that if this door was meant to open, it would have opened. So, I need to look for other doors and there's other ways to get in the NBA and my gifts that God gave me are better set for leading, for motivating, for coaching. And so, that's what led to coaching in the NBA. Now, hey, when I was there, you learn everything from every situation that you're at. I'm a big believer in it. It's not really about wins and losses. It's about learning and growth from that learning. And when I was with Brooklyn, I was 28 years old. So, I was young, a young NBA coach. And we had, right when I came on, we had this super hot streak, went from 28th, which is almost last in the NBA and three point shooting percentage, all the way to second. So, I was getting all this media and New York media, NBA media, like this new development coach and he's doing such a great job. So, of course I was drinking my own Kool-Aid of like, "Eh, I got this. I'm in this league for the long haul." And at the end of the year, the head coach got fired, which if you have a bad record, that happens in sports. And when that happens in sports, 99% of the time, the entire staff is gone as well. So, as quick as I thought that I made it to my mountaintop moment, I was going down the other way and the crucible moment happened again where I poured five years into getting into this NBA coaching job. So, I said I met Gary Sachs, but I didn't just wait for him to make calls. I went and ran my own basketball camps and I had these custom-made basketballs, terrible leather, this line down the middle where you could see the rotation on it. I had them ordered from China, which it was back. They sent these a few basketballs to the Oakland Seaport. I drove from small town Missouri 29 hours out to Oakland, put them in the trunk of my car. I spent the next five years of my life traveling around the country, doing basketball camps for anybody that would take me in, sleeping on friends' couches who probably didn't consider me a friend, random people, and crashing in my car in well-lit Walmart parking lots throughout the country. So, it was a journey to get there. So, to have that moment where once again it was taken away, it was like, "Huh, gosh, here we go again." But once again, it's this path of which choice, which road am I going to take? And I'm a really big believer on the choices we make determine who we are going to be. Now there's different levels of choices. There's tier one, which are the most important, which is your faith, the person you marry and kids or not kids. I think those are the three irreversible to an extent, choices. And there's tier two and tier three and on down the line. And that choice for me to make after I got cut from the nets was another big determiner of where's my life going to go because we always get the chance to feel bad for ourselves and lick our own wounds, right? And you'll have these people, and I've seen it many times of like, "Oh, you got a raw deal. Oh, you shouldn't have been fired. You were a good coach. They're terrible for doing that." And you can agree with that crowd who's going to say that, but what good does it do? Like, you don't get anywhere from it. So, part of that, getting cut from the basketball team in Spain, getting fired by the Nets, it's just this moment in refinement in the fire that makes you even stronger for the next thing to come, even though those moments suck, even though any pain that anybody goes through does suck, totally. But if you embrace it and you know that on the other side of it, there's something great in it, and you get the ability to teach other people that are going to go through that very similar thing and help them along their path, then that's when you find the fruit of it and the growth from it.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's so well said, David. I mean, one of the things we say here Beyond The Crucible, which is really we've learned from a lot of our guests, that phrase that didn't happen to you, it happened for you. I mean, we've had so many guests, some with just horrendous crucibles. We had a woman, Stacey Copas from the suburbs of Sydney, and she was an athlete in high school, and she dove into an above ground pool like kids do and was diagnosed as a quadriplegic. So, she went through what you would expect-
David Nurse:
Wow.
Warwick Fairfax:
... suicidal ideation and drug abuse. But later on, she's now a speaker and consultant, and she's actually grateful for what she went through, which doesn't mean that she's happy about what happened, but the person she is now wouldn't have been possible without that. Now, we've heard so many stories like that. You can't just dismiss them all as just like delusional, crazy people and what does this mean? But yet, and you did that in that you said, "Okay, this is awful. Not only do I not get to play in the NBA, I don't even get to coach in the NBA." It's like, what's next? It's not quite a job experience, but it probably felt like that at the time. It's like boils and hail. And I mean, fine. I mean, what's next? I mean, So, you probably went through a bit of that, but I'm sensing you didn't languish there for years when that happened. You probably were angry. "Hey, this is unfair. Look at my record. I understand that a coach brings in his team. I get the NBA logic, but come on. If there's one person he should have kept, it's me. So, come on, look at the record. I mean, don't you want to be second in shooting? Isn't that important in the NBA? Maybe not. What do I know? And you could have gone through those angry internal dialogue. So, talk a bit about that, because my guess is you didn't dwell on that anger almost sulking mode for too long, right?
David Nurse:
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, we all have that self-bias, right? We're the coolest people in our own minds and that part of that is that the incompetent confidence that I had. And I think you need to have a little bit of that, a little bit of that type of self-belief, self-swagger to it, but it's also about life moves very fast. And at the end of the day, where you're at right now in your life is probably not where you're going to be at five years, 10 years from now. And it's so hard for myself at the time, and I think just for people to paint a picture of the future that they want, and then also be able to be flexible, nimble, be able to pivot along the road that will eventually lead to that path or a path there of very similar. And yeah, so life is choices. It's like, like I said, it's perspectives and choices. You get either one road or the other road. You get the road of, "I'll feel bad about for myself, and this will be my narrative that I tell myself that I was wronged." Or you get the path of, "Okay, what can I learn from this? What can I extract from this to be able to take to the next thing?" It's like the analogy of you squeezing a lemon, you're making lemonade from it. I mean, obviously the whole life gives you lemons things, but that's where it comes from of what is the extraction you can take from that situation to be able then to apply to a much better situation that will come. And I think the hardest thing for myself at the time, and for most people is, you can't actually feel what the tangible thing that is going to come, right? The old adage, again, I'm using all these cliches of chopping down the tree, one swing of the ax at a time, you might take a thousand swings of the ax and you don't see that tree fall down, but then there's that one swing that does it. And then you look back, you're like, "Oh yeah, I knew that was coming." You didn't at the time. Had you, you might have had more foresight to be able to be calm in the moment. I think it's just the belief though, right? And that's where my faith in Jesus and God comes into play where I know he's going to work it out. I know he's going to work it out and he does it time and time again where it's better than I could imagine. I wouldn't ever have even imagined I'd be doing the things that I'm doing now, speaking to companies and different countries and coaching CEOs and starting a protein gummies company of all things, like all these different opportunities that have come along the way of just being open to the next door that will potentially be an opportunity that I can go down that path.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that will have a Lakeside Villa and a bunch of other rooms around like...
David Nurse:
Oceanside, I'm not selling for the last year.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oceanside. Yeah, yeah. Oh, sorry. Sorry, my bad. My bad.
Warwick Fairfax:
My bad. So, I want to talk a bit about the first book, Pivot and Go. And you talk about, it's built around 29 days saying that's what it takes these habits to have a whole lifestyle change. We'll get into in a bit just these concepts you have here of success, faded, joy, passion and confidence, but to find in a bit of a different way than most of us would do, but you have a lot of really just profound insights like you have a chapter on the rich life when you were doing these camps all over the world. Yeah, you probably weren't saving as much money as maybe you could have, but yet what you saved in a sense, more important than money was life lessons. So, talk a bit about that because one of the things you say, which I love is the only treasures that you will, without a doubt, never have taken from you are your own personal life experiences, your own lessons learned, your own faith developed, your own memories created. That's not a normal way of thinking, to think about experiences when you're actually trying to build a business, but yet in the end, you learn something much greater than that.
David Nurse:
Yeah. Isn't 2020 hindsight so bad? I wish I could say I had that in the moment too, but yeah, I mean, you always remember those type of memories and those type of moments. And my whole thing with what you're speaking about there is, I set this goal of I wanted to make $100,000, which seemed like a lot to me at the time doing basketball camps. And every spot that I was in, I looked as a transactional dollar amount from a basketball camp. And what I didn't realize at the time was I was going into these unbelievable countries. I tapped into this market of international schools, which spoke English, so there you go. And to be quite honest, they didn't have very good basketball programs. So, anything that I was doing was a value add. I was able to do these camps in Singapore, in Hong Kong, in Japan, and throughout Europe. I was just looking at them as like, "Okay, the mission is 100K. I've got to get there." Instead of thinking, "Wow, I could immerse myself in this unbelievable culture in Singapore that hardly anybody from America gets to go check out and be part of and stay with families there and get to know the people." So, it is the hindsight thing of everybody's looking at like, "What's the next thing? Let me just get through this moment instead of actually sit in the moment and be present in the moment." And I've done this whole study recently on Flow State, which is essentially being in the zone where time dissipates, it's effortless effort. The thing that defines it the most is these top performers or athletes that I've interviewed and is being able to be actually present in the moment without ruminating on the past and without having anxiety of the future. And I truly do believe that the most joyful people in life are able to spend more time presently present than in the other two slots of past and future. So, the learning lesson for me, which I still struggle with for sure, I think a lot of people would resonate with this of, you're looking for the security in, whether it's financial bottom line, whether it's in identity based, whether it's in people looking to you for social media likes or whatnot, when you look in your security in something other than one, Jesus and two, also the being present in the moment, you're going to tend to be stressed, anxious, worried, and everybody wants to be in that present moment. So, it's that dichotomy and that paradoxical tension of how do we get there and how do you feel secure in that moment? And to me, what that taught me was God's got the plan. I honestly believe he just keeps beating it over my head. Whether I'm ever going to listen or not, that's the question, but I know it's there.
Warwick Fairfax:
You've talked about identity a bit and you do have a chapter in there where you talk about coming to faith in Christ. I think it's like Western Illinois University and a group called Fuel that I actually hadn't heard of, although I go to an evangelical church and all of a lot of different ministries. So, I have a sense that that grounding of faith in Christ changed your whole perspective about identity and it's a process. It's not like it's one and done. I've got all the answers. So, next time I make a mistake or bad things happen, I'll just say, "Boy, thank you, Lord. This is wonderful. What can I learn?" I realize, as they say, sanctification's a process, but my sense is that, although you probably didn't realize that that choice you made at grad school changed your life and enabled you to have some of these perspectives you have about choice and identity and the journey. So, talk about how that happened and how your faith has really influenced, I would guess everything you do and write about.
David Nurse:
Yeah. And it is that, right? It is everything that I do and write about. And it was, I think the biggest thing is, I keep coming back to just the plan and the vision and the future is, I get a lot of excitement out of waking up every day, knowing that I've got goals that I want to hit, I've got a big mission that I'm on, but also knowing that at the end of the day, none of it really matters, which sounds like, "Hey, then why are you doing it?" But it's for a much bigger purpose, but I know the pressure isn't on me. Does that make sense? It's like a basketball player who can just go out there and just like, "Hey, if you miss a shot, it's cool. Keep shooting. Just keep shooting." That's how I look at the life perspective because the best athletes that I've ever been around, basketball players will talk about the Shai Alexander who I trained who's the best player in the world right now, or being around Steph Currys and all these guys, they don't worry about missed shots because they know that that doesn't define them. They know who they are and they're like, "I'm just going to keep shooting because I've got a big purpose. I got a big mission." So, it changed my life and my senior year of college, like you mentioned, I went to this thing, fuel with a teammate of mine and I knew God, but I didn't have a personal relationship with Jesus and the people there were just, they were so joyful. They were like praising and high-fiving and like encouraging each other. I was like, "What drug are these people taking?" And I wasn't doing drugs or anything like that. I'm not sure I drink my fair share of alcohol here and there in college, but I was intrigued. I was like, "Well, how are these people so joyful?" So, I kept coming back and I kept coming back and then I realized like, wow, okay, they have the love of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit with them, like I want this. And that honestly was where it changed my life. And I said that earlier, the tier one choices we make, that was the best decision that I ever made. It changed the trajectory on anything that I do professionally, the way I live my life, the way that I don't feel pressure with having to perform. And the second-biggest decision I made was marrying my wife, asking my wife Taylor to marry me and I cannot even imagine what life would be like without her. She is everything as in is makes me better, encourages me, just that was another best decision that I ever made. So, to me, I'm hitting home runs in the two most important areas of life and I wish that for everybody because if you're missing those, it's going to be a rocky road. I really believe if you miss those two, you're probably in for some strife in life.
Warwick Fairfax:
Talk about those two because obviously there's a link you write in the chapter about your wife when you tried to find a future partner in life, a future wife, and it didn't happen. And you wrote... I'm just going to sounds trite, but a lot of truth is trite in terms of the sayings. I'm going to let go and let God and just... I think within three months, you were having coffee with her in Los Angeles. So, I mean, it seemed there was a mindset shift, a choice that directly, at least as you write it, led you to meeting Taylor, maybe not just meeting, but maybe being in the right place to meet her. Does that make sense? Is that what you wrote or that sense?
David Nurse:
For sure. Yeah. And I think the biggest one there is people's decision, do you settle or do you pursue what you know is great? Do you settle for good or do you go for great? And I think that's a choice we make in a lot of different areas in life. And one of the biggest detriments to people is settling. And I truly believe people will Settle for the comfortable when they know the comfortable is not the great. I had this in a relationship before I met Taylor. I was like, "It's good sometimes and it's really bad sometimes, but is this what it's supposed to be?" And I had a friend tell me, he's like, "Hey, look, the struggles that you have now in that relationship, they're only going to 10X when you're married or if you have kids." And it hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm like, "Whoa, all right." So, there is better out there. And I made a non-negotiable list of the things that I wanted in a wife. I mean, it was spot on to what Taylor is and she's even more than that. Come to find out she had 52 different things that she'd been praying about since she was seven years old that she gave to me on our wedding day and I hit all of those, which I tooed my own horn here. I've got some good qualities here, but it was basically like spot onto that. So, it showed me don't ever settle because you'll just be miserable and actively pray for the things that you want in a spouse and actively ask God to open your eyes to find that person. And you can be very, very picky. And I don't think a lot of people tell you that. I think a lot of people will say, "Well, you make the most of it. You just married somebody you made." No, absolutely not.
Gary Schneeberger:
I have an interesting, to me anyway, about not settling. And it's funny because it came from a place of absolutely the worst motives ever. So, I'm in my late 20s and I meet this woman at a journalism conference. I was a reporter and she was engaged to somebody, but I liked her. So, I said to her, this is the phrase I came up with, "Never settle, strive." And it was purely selfish on my part. But guess what? 35 years later, that has become a motto of mine, and it has been for 35 years, this idea of not settling, striving, moving beyond, don't settle for the thing that's here, right? Don't settle for the grass, right? Pull up by the weeds. I mean, clear things out, do those kind of things. Don't settle for what looks like it might be good. Go after the thing that you know is good. So, I love hearing you say that. And I hope our listeners and viewers grasp that idea that you're not going to find the great movements of your life in settling, right? When I'm ready to go, I'm going to list the hundred things that I have done in my life. And I guarantee you of the top 100 things I've done, it's not going to be any time I spent watching Netflix. I can guarantee that's not going to be one of them. It's taking action and doing something towards the goals that you want to achieve.
David Nurse:
Man, I love that. I was telling somebody this the other day, and isn't it funny? I honestly, I can't remember series that Taylor and I watched like two weeks ago. We watched it in the evening, it's just like a little nighttime routine. We'll watch a show and stuff, and we'll be so into it. Two weeks ago, I can't remember the name of it. I can't remember what happened. What does that show you? Was that really important? Probably not.
Warwick Fairfax:
No, that's so good. One of the other things that's really interesting here is obviously the story you shared about sending handwritten notes to the 30 GMs and the NBA. I mean, that takes, I don't know if an insane level of confidence, persistence, it's remarkable. But one of the other things you say, which is very counterintuitive, everybody thinks networking is great. Find the people that can do stuff for you. And it's all about what they can do for you. But yet your mindset, you talk about having, was it like the Golden 15, you had this incredible instance in which here you were coaching on the coaching staff of the Brooklyn Nets, you're in Dallas, Dallas Mavericks, and Mark Cuban is there. He's on the court just practicing his shot. And you did something that I don't think anybody would actually do. It's like Mark Cuban, billionaire, goodness does. So, talk about what you did and what you didn't do, because it's incredibly counterintuitive, that whole instance. It's really a window into your philosophy that's not what many people would have.
David Nurse:
Yeah. I gave him shooting lessons. I gave him shooting lessons on the court before that game. And it wasn't out of a way of like, "Hey, I hope Mark can help me start a business or invest in something that I do someday." It was genuinely out of a... I had a passion for teaching people how to shoot a basketball. As weird as that might sound, I loved when people would become better shooters, more for the point of they become excited about what they were passionate in. To me, that vehicle was shooting a basketball, which I later realized is inspiring people for what they love to do and helping them uncover roadblocks to be able to get there. For Mark, he loved basketball. He loves it. And he was a really bad shooter and he's better now and not all thanks to me obviously, but gave him a few little pointers. And I told him I'd send him more drills because the real players had to start coming to warm up before the game. We were in Dallas before a Brooklyn Nets and Mavericks game. And he's like, "Yeah, he was really excited about it." So, I sent him over more drills in an email and just sent him an email the next day thanking him, right? Just didn't expect anything to come back from it. And I got an email five minutes later just thanking me for the time and everything. And we stayed in touch, are still in touch to this day. And if I ever have a business question, I can send Mark an email and ask him a question. And it's like, what better person in the business world to be able to have pick their brain or tap into than Mark Cuban? But that was all because I was helping him with something he was passionate about. I wasn't going up to Mark and saying, "Hey Mark, I've got this business question. Can you help me with the business?" So, there's different angles to be able to help people. And I think there's two types of people. There's givers and there's takers. And whether you get burnt by somebody you pour into, and I've been burnt many, many times and spend a lot of time, I'll serve people, I'll serve people, but I'll just keep doing it because it's all going to come back in the end. I don't know how it's going to come back. And there's been crazy ways where I did not expect something at all of a seed that I planted by serving somebody years ago and then they come around full circle. Like even this protein gummies company that I started, when I started raising money from it, I reached out to people who I'd served or knew years ago and they're like, "Yeah, I'm an investor. I would love to invest in this." I'm like, "My goodness." So, it just goes to show you is don't transactionally use somebody in a relationship, do it for the betterment of what you have gifted in you to be able to help them get excited, be passionate about what they're doing and then let it sit. Stay in touch with them, cultivate the relationship and maybe something will come back to you in the end. And in my own life, I can only speak from my own experiences and what I've seen in friends too, is it does come back to you. And it comes back to you from the right people as well. So, yeah, that's the crazy Mark Cuban story.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, that's just remarkable that you, and you talk about the golden 15 of having 15 relationships that you pour into. And again, your philosophy is not what you can get out of them, it's what you can give to them and how they can help you be a better person, but not about what they can necessarily do for you in your career. That is so counterintuitive. That is not traditional networking. It's anything but...
David Nurse:
Traditional networking just seems... I hated it when I was in a room and I'd be having a conversation with somebody and I could see their eyes darting around me, like looking up at who else is... I was like, "All right." And then you just make those decisions, right? You're like, "This is not a person that I want to be. I'm going to make these life decisions that reflect the better side of it and the human relationship side of it, instead of the transactional networking side of it."
Warwick Fairfax:
No, it's so well said. So, really at the end of the book, you summarize, you talk about relentless consistency, which obviously is in part being consistent in how you live out your faith every day. We'll have good days and bad days, but from my perspective, what's the trajectory? What's the arc of your life? If it's a graph, is it like down or is it up in terms of how you live out your faith and you redefine a series of terms, success, failure, joy, passion, confidence. So, talk about how, because your definitions are very different than the world's definitions. I mean, they're radically different. So, talk about those because none of them is what people would expect.
David Nurse:
Well, it all started for me in basketball players talking about going through shooting slumps. And every time somebody would talk about a shooting slump is where you're missing a lot of shots, their whole body language would just change. And what I realized is like, well, what if we changed the word slump to hippopotamus? Would it change it? And they would laugh and look at me crazy like, shoot, shooting hippopotamus, but like, look at that. It's just a word that you're letting dictate how you feel. And that's what got me onto this of like, whoa, why do we have to let these words that were taught be able to define how we feel of it? Like what if failure meant something different than what the world teaches us? What if wealth, what if confidence, what if they all meant something of a different fashion? And I'm a big believer in defining your own words, especially using failure, for example, like the two greatest basketball players of all time, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, and their mental coach is a good friend of mine, George Mumford, and he said they would look at games, they would look at wins and losses, not as wins and losses. They didn't care about that. They looked at things as momentum and learning. So, if they had a great game, they're like, "That's momentum. I built some momentum on this. I'm going to keep doubling down on this." So, if they had a bad game, they're like, "All right, how can I learn from it?" And it just changes the whole trajectory because you're not defining yourself as a winner or a loser, but you just love, like they did, the joy of the competition, but it's the competition with self, not that necessarily the competition with your neighbor or somebody else on social media. How do you continue to strive to be the best version of yourself? And I think, and it's also once again, it's not in a, "Hey, the pressure's on you." This is the joy. The joy of the constant growth and relentlessly pouring into yourself so that you can better others. And I think a lot of that we have to start with, a good spot for people to start with is redefine your own words. What does rich mean to you? What does it truly mean? Is it money or is it time with your spouse, your kids doing incredible experiences and adventures? What does failure look like? What does confidence look like? What does consistency look like? Define your own main important words, and that's where that concept came from. It's served me very well in life.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, you've talked about failure and that's really good. It's not a loss, it's a lesson. True success isn't tied to anything the world has to offer. It's living at each stage to come more fully who you are made to be, knowing you are doing so for a much bigger purpose than yourself. That truly is a great definition. Joy is understanding that extreme struggles and drastic changes you go through, all part of the adventure, shaping you into who you were made to be, passion, speaking into existence, what is it you want to be and taking their daily steps on the path to reach that goal. I love this one about confidence, being comfortable in your own skin, no matter how quirky it might look to you. And it's the knowledge you have a gift from God, specifically craft and creative for you. We're all quirky. We all have our things that our spouses know. Some they love, some they find annoying, but that's okay. We are who we are and being comfortable with yourself what's in all. I mean, this is really game changing all of these concepts. They're not normal concepts. I mean, do you find people look at you like you have two heads when you talk about these terms and say, "Say what?" Because you're talking at a foreign language for each of these words.
David Nurse:
Yeah, sometimes. I mean, the comfortable on your own skin is a fun one for me because I'll say things and do things in public that my wife's like, "What are you doing? What are you doing?" But it's just to see how people react and see how people feel and just show that be yourself. That's the most attractive quality somebody can have is just truly being who you are, not trying to put on a mask or trying to act like somebody that you're not, but just truly be comfortable with who God has created you to be and comfortable in your own skin. So, yeah, it's a different way to look at things, but I think when people hear it, they're like, "Yeah, I want that." That's very freeing for me.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I will display that I do that myself with all the bracelets that I'm wearing. I'm a devotee to that.
David Nurse:
I love it. I love it.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, I like how you end your book talking about choice and we all get to choose how we want to live. I know in my case at Beyond The Crucible, I love what I do with the podcast, helping people realize that they're not defined by their worst day because I, as listeners know very well, I was in that space, gosh, back in my 20s and early 30s when I did a 2.25 billion dollar takeover from my family's 150-year-old media business, which ended up after three years not working. So, am I going to be defined by a 2.25 billion dollar failure? I'd like to think not. And I think what's important to me, and fortunately for me, I found the Lord during my undergrad days at Oxford, but I really try and live that. So, for instance, I wrote a book Crucible Leadership a few years ago and I went around speaking and I'm not a natural speaker, but I got with some training got to, I think competent to the point where at least judging by the audience, I was effective even though I'm not a natural speaker, but I came to realize I don't enjoy that and I blessed financially in that I don't have to do that. And so, I do write blogs, podcasts, we're very active on social media, but I don't like traveling all over the place. And so, it's like, well, if I don't have to, I'm not passionate about it, even if I'm effective, then why do it? I get to choose to create my own life. I'm an elder at my evangelical church. I'm on a few other nonprofit faith-based organizations that I contribute to with some strategic advice and I love all that. That's part of what I love to do. So, everybody gets to choose their own adventures, choose their own life, but so often we're living the lives of others. And you have so many stories in your book about people living, certainly in sports, living their parents' dreams, which many athletes do. So, talk a bit about, I know it sounds simple, but you have a choice how you want to live your life. Don't live what you think people want you to live. And it seems like you've lived that to the max, is right? You constantly try to live in light of what you feel called to by the Lord, not because of what anybody else is telling you to do, right?
David Nurse:
Yeah, totally. And thanks for that. I mean, it is one thing that I do really make sure that I stay away from what the media is saying or what the world is saying, like this is what you need to pursue. Because I feel like they try to funnel you in a way that do this, do this, do this, don't take chances, don't take risks, just go with the flow. And that never turns out to be the right way. And it's, my dad was, and it's funny saying the masses are fill in the blank with that, so don't follow them, run the other way, run the other way fast if everybody's going one way. So, I think that's really stuck with me. And it's just been, whether it's very uncertain times when you go your own path, because it is uncertain, but you're doing your own path, your own thing. And the best way to summarize the whole podcast itself is God does have the plan. He's not going to leave you hanging. Go and just take action on your dreams and your goals and what God's called you to do, but know it's probably not going to be exactly what you foresee it to be, but it will be better because God has the ultimate plan.
Gary Schneeberger:
We promised David to get you out for your next meeting that you have. I also promised that before we did that, I would give you the opportunity to let listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you on the worldwide web. How can they find more about David Nurse?
David Nurse:
Yeah. Website is davidnurse.com, social media, David Nurse NBA. Books are all out there in Amazon. Company is called More or Less Protein. It's Protein Gummies. It's a whole nother story in itself about relationships lead to incredible things. But yeah, I'm very easy to get ahold of. And I just want to thank you guys for this opportunity and thank you guys for what you are doing. You are using your skills, your gifts, abilities, and a platform to be able to show people the true light. And that's so needed, especially in today's day and age.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, David, let's say, there might be somebody here listening and it might be their worst day. They might think there is no hope. They're defined by that faded, by getting fired from that job. What would a word of hope be for that person?
David Nurse:
Just keep going. Don't give upness is the greatest skill that you can have. What if there's a word called don't give upness. Just don't give up. Keep looking at different opportunities of what are the skills you've developed through that thing that you just got fired or the door slammed in your face? Who are people, truth tellers around you that you can seek wisdom from who have been there before? Ask them, have them guide you. Somebody has gone through the exact thing that you're going through. Know that God has the overall plan. So, I know that wasn't just one thing, it was about three, but I think those in combination make a nice sandwich together.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject has been spoken and our guest today, David Nurse, has just spoken it. So, Warwick, we have just mere minutes ago finished our interview with David Nurse. Lots of great things. I know you were really excited about this going into it because you read his book and we're really moved by a lot of what he had to say. So, let our listeners and viewers know what's like one big takeaway you'd like them to take with them after they see this episode.
Warwick Fairfax:
Life is about choice. We use that word often up Beyond The Crucible and certainly the way David Nurse has led his life. He's made a lot of very good choices and it's really mindset shifts, which he talks a lot about in the book that we focused on. That was the one that he said us. It was actually his first book. It's called Pivot & Go: The 29-Day Mindset Blueprint to Redefine and Achieve YOUR Success. What's remarkable about David's story is here he is, is somebody that's very successful. He had a stint as part of the coaching team with the Brooklyn Nets. He has worked with over 1150 NBA players, helping them become better players and just coaching them in all aspects of their life. His achieved remarkable success, three books speaks all over the place, was voted I think one of the top 50 keynote speakers in the world. He's had a lot of success, but yet as he puts it, he comes from a small town in Iowa, not from any particular background of wealth or influence. And yet he had this dream of being an NBA player. Now he's not short his six two, but as any basketball fan will know, six two is still on the shorter side if you want to play in the NBA. A few more inches would have been helpful, but yet he didn't give up and he had all sorts of roadblocks. He ended up playing in Spain and Australia and just different leagues to try and make it to the NBA and it never worked out. So, in his 20s, he had to give up that dream. So, then he had this dream of being a coach and he achieved that. He was on the Brooklyn Nets coaching staff and helped them go from like 28th and shooting to second, which is pretty good, like outstanding. That was his expertise amongst other things is shooting. And yet a new coach comes in and as often happens, a new coach wants his own stuff. Well, that's common, but I'm sure David felt at the time, "Are you kidding me? Look what I've done. From 28th to second in shooting, you got to fire me?" And it's like, I'm sure they probably said things like it's not personal, but we're going in a different direction, all those wonderful phrases that we hate to hear. And so, he was out of a job. But yet, both of those crucibles, both not making it into the NBA and then getting fired as a coach in the NBA, yes, I'm sure there were periods of being angry and frustrated, yet he didn't let get him down. And I think one of the keys was his faith in Christ, which happened during his college years, gave him a different perspective that were not defined by each individual failure. Life's a journey. What can you learn from it? So, his capacity to learn and think differently is crazy. He's done bold things that I've rarely heard anybody do. One of the reasons he got into the NBA as a coach is he wrote handwritten letters to the 30 general managers of the NBA. After a month and a half, one got back and he talked about himself and maybe a few things about the team and that one relationship led to others that then led him to being a coaching staff in the NBA. Well, his philosophy about networking, which is not networking. The story he shared where he meets Mark Cuban, the then owner of the Dallas Mavericks when the Brooklyn Nets were playing the Mavericks and is out there before the game shooting and David Nurse being an expert on shooting gave him a couple tips and said, "Would you want me to give you some more tips?" "Sure." So, he gave him his email and he gave him a bunch of tips on how to shoot better and it really helped. Not once did he ask Mark Cuban, who's a billionaire, for help with anything. Now, who does that? I've never heard of anybody you think," Mark Cuban, he can take me to the next level in basketball or anything else." I remember at the time he's on the coaching style for the Nets. So, his focus on giving to others and just almost this ministry mindset of so many stories in his book of how he's tried to help others. He's been successful, but not because he's put his own agenda first. He's really in a sense tried to put the Lord's agenda first, be it in his marriage or in his career and he's constantly saying, "Okay, so this didn't work out. So, Lord, what's the plan here? What am I meant to learn?" He has this almost superhuman, I'd say, God-given mindset about not letting failure get him down and saying, "Okay." He has massive persistence, massive courage of trying things, no lack of courage here, but yet he is not defined by his worst day or his worst getting fired. His mindset and the way he chooses to look at life, we can learn a huge amount from us as we all go through the challenges we have in life.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, folks, until the next time we're together, please remember this. We know that your crucible experiences are difficult. David talked about several crucible experiences that he went through that were very difficult. Warwick, you know, has talked about his before. I've talked about mine before, but here's the other thing we know. We know that if we learn the lessons of our crucibles and we apply those lessons moving forward, it's not the end of our story. In fact, it can be the beginning of a profoundly new story that leads to the best destination you can possibly be led to, and that is to a life of significance. Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond The Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
William Wallace: Lessons in Building a Shared Vision
The historical figure we talk about this week, William Wallace, faces high stakes, and a high risk, in the 1995 Oscar-winning movie, Braveheart.
The story of his effort to build a shared vision among his Scottish countrymen to fight for their freedom is the focus of this first episode of our 2026 series within the show, More Stories from The Book Crucible Leadership.
Wallace may have lived in the 13th century, but the lessons we can learn from him on this critical aspect of leading a life of significance remain helpful to us in the 21st century.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. A key part of inspiring a shared vision is to help people look beyond their own self-interest to a vision of a greater purpose. And as we'll see, Wallace sees something in Robert the Bruce. "In the other nobles, what chance of success does he have?" He's probably thinking, "Slim to none, but I've got to try." With Robert the Bruce, he's thinking, "It's going to be a tough sell, but it just may be possible. It just may be."
Gary Schneeberger:
Those are high stakes and a high risk that the historical figure we talk about this week, William Wallace, faces in the 1995 Oscar-winning film Braveheart. The story of his effort to build a vision among his Scottish countrymen to fight for their freedom is the focus of this first episode of our 2026 Series Within the Show, more stories from the book Crucible Leadership. Wallace may have lived in the 13th century, but the lessons we can learn from him on this critical aspect of leading a life of significance are extremely relevant to all of us in the 21st century.
Welcome, friends, to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. It's that time of year again. The year is the calendar's flipped over to 2026. And we're recording our first show in what we're calling, as we have called before, the Series Within the Show once a month for the next year, except for our Summer Series part. But the Series Within the Show this year is a callback a little bit to two years ago when we did stories from the book Crucible Leadership, that's Warwick's book. Now we very creatively have come up with more stories from the book Crucible Leadership, just so everybody knows exactly what we're drilling into.
But we have something that we're doing that's a little bit different than what we've done before, and we'll tell you more about that in a bit. But just to level-set us on what Crucible Leadership is, it's The Wall Street Journal bestseller that was released in 2022, written by Warwick. And it's an important book because without that book, folks, without that book, there wouldn't be a Beyond the Crucible. There wouldn't be this podcast. There wouldn't be this brand. There wouldn't be this business if it weren't for that book that Warwick wrote.
But the angle that we've added to what we're doing here in the Series Within the Show is that some of the things that we're going to talk about from the book weren't in the printed copy of the book that I'm sure all of you ordered and have read. These are things that, as they say in the business, wound up on the cutting-room floor. Please understand, when I say that, it does not mean that they weren't good enough, that they're bad bits. It just means that there was such a multitude of good things to go in that book, these things just didn't make the cut.
These things were good stuff, but the great stuff that got in the book didn't quite allow for this to go in. So we want to make sure that you get to know those things that Warwick did write about back when he wrote his book. And so, that's why we're doing this Series Within the Show on more stories from the book Crucible Leadership. And we're beginning with William Wallace and the power and the importance of shared vision. You've heard us talk about shared vision a lot, but we're going to talk about it today in the context of the story of William Wallace, who, historical figure, but he's also a filmic figure in that he was the protagonist. He was the main character on which the story was based in the movie Braveheart.
So, all of that, that's a lot of me blabbing, Warwick. Let me ask you a question. And this is an important one. Why William Wallace? And why do you think that he's an example of the importance of shared vision as we begin this new dive into stories from the book Crucible Leadership?
Warwick Fairfax:
So, sometimes when we think of stories of visionaries motivating the troops or a nation, we think of presidents, kings, prime ministers, generals. But William Wallace is different. He's a great example of an ordinary person having the powerful ability to get so many people on board with his vision. He was not somebody that anybody had ever heard of. He was just a regular guy. But he was able to unite his fellow Scots and have a powerful influence on the leading figure to be the future king of Scotland, Robert the Bruce.
So, there are key elements in inspiring a team with shared vision. And one of the most important aspects of that is completely living that vision to your core and inspiring a team with a vision that they would have found hard to believe was possible before. And one of the keys of that is to help people look beyond their own self-interest, look beyond just a few feet in front of them, and to look for a vision that is bigger than they could have imagined, that fulfills some higher purpose. That is not normal for most people.
And so, the other aspect that this movie and story talks about is not just inspiring those around you, those that work for you and with you, but inspiring people at all levels, including those above us. Many of us work in organizations in which we have people two, three, four levels above us. And so, this story of William Wallace shows not just how you can inspire people around you and who work for you but those who are several levels above you, which often is necessary to have a vision become reality. It's really an inspiring story from which we can learn a lot.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And as Warwick has intimated there, what we're going to be talking about here isn't perhaps scholarly book studies of William Wallace. It is indeed the movie Braveheart, because the key elements that we want to talk about about shared vision come through very starkly, very clearly in the film. So that's the ground that we're going to cover here.
And it's important to note, just for those of you who've been with us before when we've done a summer series on movies, we're not going to do from the opening credits to the closing credits on Braveheart. We're going to focus on those things that really speak into the shared-vision aspect of what he does. So this is a little bit of a different approach to going after looking at the details of the movie. That's a fair assessment, isn't it, Warwick?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Yeah. We're really going to focus on the key aspects of the story of how to live a vision, how to share that vision at all levels. So we'll be talking about aspects of the story that really fit into William Wallace's ability to inspire the whole of the Scottish people with the vision that he has.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And that happens all the time. We prepared for this for... For a fair bit of time, we prepared for this episode. And then you just built a perfect bridge into the first question I'm going to ask you. So, that's fabulous. Or the second question I'm going to ask you.
And the first hint of William Wallace doing this in the film Braveheart is he loses his father early in the movie in a battle against the British, and the young man who returns, right? So he's a boy when he loses his father. The young man who returns to Scotland after living with his Uncle Argyle has a much different vision than William Wallace ended up having. So, talk about that a little bit, Warwick, because the William Wallace who comes back from Uncle Argyle's place to live again in Scotland among his clansman, not the guy we're going to see as this movie carries on, right? He's got a different kind of vision early, early, early on.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's very true. When we see William Wallace as a young boy, I mean, he's got to be, like, 5, 6. He's certainly less than 10. I mean, we don't quite know how old he is, but he's young. And we see his father and older brother go off to war. And he obviously wants to come with, as all kids want to go with parents, but he's obviously too young. And sadly, both his father and older brother are killed. Now, I don't know that we see his mother. So, at that point, it would seem like he's an orphan. And so he ends up going to live with his Uncle Argyle.
And this changes the trajectory of his life completely, not just because he's not with his parents, but his uncle, his Uncle Argyle, is a well-educated man. And the life he would live in just a very primitive... we wouldn't even call a house. It's almost like sort of grass thatching on it and wood, maybe stone. It's a very primitive existence. And his uncle is very educated. And so, when Wallace returns as a young man, he can read and write, which many people in his village would not have been able to, necessarily. Not only can he read and write, but he can speak French and Latin and has been to Rome, a very radically different existence than he would have had without growing up with his uncle.
Early on when William Wallace is a young boy, Argyle says, his uncle says to him, "William, you must use your mind. You must first use your mind, and then I will teach you how to use a sword." And this was a powerful life lesson, because as we'll see later in the movie, William Wallace's greatest weapon wasn't just his ability to wield the sword, which he was very proficient at. It was his intellect and cunning, that his mind was very finely honed, very adept, and that was arguably a greater weapon than his sword.
So, when he returns to the village, he's off somewhere else in Scotland, the townspeople ask if he wants to fight. They're tired of the English oppression. And so, Wallace says he wants to live in peace and raise a family. He doesn't want to go to war. That's not his mission. He just wants to live in peace, get married and have a family. That's the vision for his life at that point.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting that you mentioned what his uncle says to him, because before that, even, his father says, as you indicated, when William runs out as a boy to his dad and says, "I can fight," and his dad says, I have to find the exact phrase, "It's our wits that make a man a hero," his dad tells him. So, dad and uncle both have the same approach to... It's not just about brawn. It's not just about battle readiness. It's also about, it starts with what happens in the mind and in the vision, if you will, right? Having a vision for something. And I think that's what we see develop for William Wallace, for sure.
But Wallace's perspective on whether he's going to fight changes when he marries his childhood friend, Murron. She is killed for fighting to get away from an attack by British soldiers. And that changes Wallace's perspective completely from saying, "I just want a peaceful life." He was on his path to have that peaceful life, to have those children that he talked about. And then this tragedy happened with his wife being killed. That gives William Wallace a different vision in the aftermath of that work, but it's a narrow one. And it's still not the vision that certainly his life will be known for, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Well said, Gary. I mean, the death of his childhood friend, Murron, is transformative. So, when William Wallace returns, he's a young man, he sees this young woman, Murron. And she's somebody that he's known his whole life. I mean, when he was small, living back in the village, they knew each other. And he's immediately drawn to her, and they start courting, and they get married in secret.
Now, the reason they do this is that the English nobility, the English king, want to really make sure that the Scottish people are under thumb and exert their tyrannical rule. And they enforce this horrific thing called prima nocta. And what that means is that if a couple are about to get married, the very first night after the wedding, the local English noble has the right of first night, as in to be with, to lay with the bride. And so, this is obviously a horrific thing. And so, both William Wallace and Murron are aware of this. And so, they do indeed get, as I mentioned, caught and get married in secret.
But one time when Wallace is somewhere else outside the village, a group of English soldiers see Murron, and they're just common soldiers, and they proceed to try to rape her. And she fights back and maybe causes some degree of injury to one of the soldiers. And because she fights back, the local leader of the English troops, he might be a local noble, we don't quite know, he comes back and he wants to make an example of it. Basically, don't fight back, even against rape. I mean, it's a horrific thing that's going on here.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so, what this local English leader does is he ties Murron to a stake and he slits her throat with a dagger and kills her. So, Wallace later returns and sees that the English troops have killed the love of his life, and he is transformed. His vision of, "Hey, I just want to live in peace and raise a family," that is gone. The love of his life has been killed. And so, he is just filled with rage and bent on vengeance.
So, he, along with other Scots, go to the local garrison of the English troops where this local noble of that area is. And he kills many of those troops and captures the English leader, the local noble who's killed his wife, and he exacts his vengeance. He ties that leader to a stake. And in the same way that leader killed his wife, he also slits the throat of that leader. So, at this point, his vision is his vengeance and payback. He's filled with rage. That is the extent of his vision at this point.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. But that, again, as the movie goes on, as we learn more about him, as he encounters more of what's going on between England and his homeland of Scotland, there's really a critical scene, one of the film's most renowned, actually, that you unpack in detail in the piece of the book that ended up on the cutting-room floor. Talk about that scene and how it offers us guidance on crafting a shared vision, because it really is a masterclass in doing so.
Warwick Fairfax:
It surely is. So, as you've mentioned, initially, Wallace's vision after his wife is killed is narrow. He just wants to avenge the murder of his wife. But then it grows to abolishing this apparent practice of prima nocta first night of just the English troops, on nobility being able to sleep with the bride on her first night. And then it grows from there to being one of freeing Scotland from the English tyranny.
So, what's interesting is, William Wallace had no desire to be a hero or the leader of his people. He initially, again, was all about revenge. But Wallace's fame spreads because they hear about how he took on that English garrison and got payback for what they did to his wife. So people keep coming to him and they look to him to be their leader. Initially, he's a bit nonplussed. It's like, "I'm just a regular guy. I mean, what do you want from me?" kind of thing.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he actually, Warwick, he actually tells them, because I took a note when I watched it again yesterday, he actually tells them to go home. He tells them at first to go home. He doesn't want them to be part of what he knows is going to be a difficult vision. So he's trying to spare his kinsmen.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right. He doesn't necessarily want to lead this whole big vision. But he's a commoner, not of noble birth. And I don't think he necessarily wants to be this hero with this cause. But I think the Scottish people, they see him as one of them. He's not some noble. He's just a regular guy.
So, one of the key battle scenes in the movie is a Battle of Stirling Bridge, which was in 1297. And so we see the Scots, and they're arrayed in the battlefield. And on the other side of the field, we see the might of the English army. This isn't just some small garrison. This is the English army. And some Scots are getting nervous and saying, "Whoa, I don't know that I signed up for this. I mean, look at these. That's an organized army. We're just a bunch of regular people. We're not like trained soldiers. These people are."
And so then William Wallace gives this rousing speech, and he says the following. He says, "I'm William Wallace, and I see a whole army of my countrymen here in defiance of tyranny. You've come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What would you do without freedom? Will you fight?" And so then one of the folks in his army, one of these fellow Scots, says, "Fight against that?" pointing to this massive English army raid against them. "No, we will run, and we will live."
And then Wallace says this, and it's an incredible speech he gives. He says, "Aye," very Scottish, right? Means yes, as we all know. "Aye-"
Gary Schneeberger:
Very well done, by the way. Like, "Aye."
Warwick Fairfax:
"... fight and you may die. Run and you will live, at least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now. Would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell your enemies that they may take our lives, but they will never take our freedom."
So, this is an incredible example of William Wallace inspiring a shared vision. He's trying to help his fellow Scots have a vision that the seemingly impossible task of taking on the might of the English army, that they may have hope, that they might win. And even if they don't, at least they will have died fighting for freedom. I mean, this is not an easy sell. They're just regular people against the might of a trained army. And he says that they're fighting to be free men and ask them what will they do without freedom. Do they want to look back years from now and say what might have been? "I could have fought for freedom, but I didn't." You've got to live with the what-if. "Maybe we could have won, maybe not, but we'll never know."
So, Wallace is a common man like them. He's not wealthy. He has shown that he's willing to oppose tyranny and is living his vision and inspires Scots to live that vision, too, a vision more than just tending to their fields and their flocks, but a higher purpose vision, a vision of freedom against tyranny. It's just a remarkable speech. And he's somebody that... You can't really ignore William Wallace. He lives his vision, as we'll talk more about later. He's somebody that... When William Wallace gives a speech, he's one of them. He's been through incredible hardship. They respect him. It's tough to ignore William Wallace when he's giving this impassioned speech in front of the army, railed against the whole might of the English army. It's an incredible speech, incredible moment.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So, let's move from 1297 to 2026, and folks who are listening, folks who aren't on the battlefield in Scotland, folks who are listening to us talk right now. There's something in what William Wallace does by just being so sold out to his mission that he encourages... He brings aboard, he captures with his rhetoric, with his inspirational notes, a team of fellow travelers. That's an important thing for us to know now, I mean, to just kind of take that and put that in our pockets as we look to build shared visions ourselves for the things that we have on our lists.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And we'll unpack this more as the movie goes on. But it starts with really being completely sold out for the vision. Well, he started off by taking on that English garrison and exacting revenge for the death of his wife. Here he is fighting for freedom for all of Scotland against the whole of the might of the English army. So, he's living his vision and is trying to inspire people to think beyond themselves, to inspire them beyond their fears and maybe narrow vision. And so, that's something that we can all learn from is inspiring people.
You've got to model the vision, but you want to inspire them to a vision beyond just their own immediate needs. You inspire them a vision that helps other people. We talk about a life of significance, a vision of a life of significance, of helping others making some impact in the world that we live in. And so, that's really what shared vision should be all about. You should be inspiring people to do what they think is almost impossible and to think of something that's beyond their own immediate interest, to help those around them and their neighborhood, their community, their country, maybe the world. That's what an ideal shared vision is, and that's what William Wallace is doing.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And he continues to have his vision grow as the film goes on. He continues to strengthen his vision and motivate others to join him in an important scene that follows what we just talked about, that battle where he gives that rousing speech. Talk about that scene of, again, the next thing that happens in this film that really solidifies his vision and gets more people to climb aboard it.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Wallace is a very smart man. He realizes it's not enough to inspire his fellow Scots, regular folks, the common people, as they would be called back then. He realized that's critical. But what is also critical is he has to get the powerful Scottish nobles. They have influence, troops, money. He knows they're not going to win without the support of the Scottish nobles. And he realizes that this is not easy because the English king Longshanks, who we see in the movie, who's a very ruthless man, but also a cunning, a smart man. He's no idiot, Longshanks.
And so, what is customary back then is you try to buy off those who might oppose you. So, he gives the Scottish nobles position and land, some even in Northern England. He gives some of the English nobles some land and position in Scotland. He's trying to make sure that people have a vested interest in opposing the Scots and standing up for the English crown. So, this is not an easy sell.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. I mean, even him bringing back prima nocta, right? There's that scene where, "Hey, if we want to get the nobles on our sides, let's just do this thing."
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, he's very good at that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. It's such a good point. So, it's, why should the English nobles go there? Well, they have this whole, the young women on the night that they'll be married, being able to lay with them, kind of take advantage of them. For some, that's an attractive proposition, very sadly.
So, really, what Wallace does is he tries to appeal to the hearts of these nobles and tries to help them think beyond their own self-interest, which is not easy. I mean, these are people with castles, position. In today's age, it's like, "Don't just think about you're CEO of X company and you have this $10 million home and all this money. Think beyond that." It's like, "Okay, why is that? Because life is pretty good. I'm enjoying everything I have. Why should I think beyond the wealth and power and position that I have?" Whether it's 1297 or 2026, it's not an easy sell.
And so, Wallace starts to leave a meeting of the Scottish nobles and he's stopped by one of the nobles, because he's sort of disgusted with what he sees, really. They're just all about their own self-interest. And so, one of the nobles says... Oh, I should add, because of Wallace's triumph at the Battle of Stirling, he's made a knight, which he's a-
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. He becomes a noble.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. He becomes Sir William Wallace. He still thinks of himself as a commoner. Just because he's got a title, I don't think he instantly gets a castle and money. We don't really see any evidence of that. You've got a title. Well, great.
Anyway. So, one of the nobles says to him, "Sir William, where are you going?" And Wallace says, "We have beaten the English, but they'll come back because you won't stand together." In other words, the English nobles. This nobleman says, "Well, what will you do?" So Wallace says, "I will invade England and defeat the English on their own ground." This noble says, "Invade? That's impossible." I mean, it's one thing to try to stop the English in Scotland, but he's thinking, "Go to England and invade." That's, like, insanity.
And Wallace says, "Why? Why is that impossible? You were so concerned with squabbling for the scraps of Longshanks' table..." In other words, the king of England. "You're so concerned with squabbling for the scraps of Longshanks' table that you've missed your God-given right to something better. There is a difference between us. You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think position exists to provide those people with freedom, and I go to make sure that they have it."
I mean, he is really appealing to the better angels, the better motivation of these Scottish nobles. And when you look at that scene, it's like, what is there to appeal to? Are there any better angels within them? They're all about their own self-interest. You're thinking, talk about mission impossible. I mean, he's giving a speech to people that there's no way they're going to listen. I mean, why would they? To fight against the might of the English army with this sort of ragtag group of Scottish people. But he says, "Don't just think of your position, but realize you've been given this position," I'm assuming maybe by God or however he looks at it, "to fight for people."
Gary Schneeberger:
And then there comes not the introduction of, but really the most vivid scene with the rightful heir to the Scottish throne, Robert the Bruce, which, side note, when this movie came out in 1995, I worked with a guy named Bruce and he got very sick of us calling him Robert the Bruce.
Warwick Fairfax:
You should have told him, "Bruce, you should be honored. What a noble name, Robert the Bruce." You know?
Gary Schneeberger:
I know, I know. Right. But Robert the Bruce starts playing a bigger role in the film at this point. And Robert the Bruce is pivotal to Wallace's shared vision becoming reality. There's a scene that really unpacks that. Talk about that scene where how important Robert the Bruce is to the vision that William Wallace has and which he wants to have others share with him.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, right after the scene with the nobles, the Scottish nobles, in which doesn't really seem like they're on board with Wallace's vision of freedom, he's leaving, and Robert the Bruce goes after him. And it's clear that he's really struck by what Wallace has said. So they get in a discussion about balancing the desire for freedom and keeping the nobles happy, because Robert the Bruce is a smart guy. He said, "It's not easy to get these nobles to think beyond their self-interest and power and position."
And so, Robert the Bruce says this. "I'm not a coward. I want what you want, but we need the nobles." So Wallace says, "We need them? Nobles? Now tell me, what does that mean to be noble? Your title gives you claim to the throne of our country, but men don't follow titles, they follow courage. Now, our people know you. Noble and common, they respect you. And if you would just lead them to freedom, they would follow you. And so would I."
Wallace is appealing to Robert the Bruce, the most important Scottish noble, the most influential, and the leading figure to be the future king of Scotland. He tells Bruce that men don't follow titles, they follow courage. He says that if Robert the Bruce would just lead them to freedom, the Scottish people, the regular folks, they would follow Robert the Bruce. So, Wallace is trying to get him to think more than about his self-interest and money. And he has, obviously, a lot of it as a leading Scottish noble and to think about the Scottish people.
A key part of inspiring a shared vision is to help people look beyond their own self-interest to a vision of a greater purpose. And as we'll see, Wallace sees something in Robert the Bruce. "In the other nobles, what chance of success does he have?" He's probably thinking, "Slim to none, but I've got to try." With Robert the Bruce, he's thinking, "It's going to be a tough sell, but it just may be possible. It just may be."
Again, we cannot underestimate how intelligent and discerning William Wallace is. He knows how to understand what's in the heart of a person. He has this sixth sense of where they are and what he can do to appeal to them to accomplish his vision. And he sees something in Wallace. And we'll see through the course of the movie, he's really trying to fight for Robert the Bruce.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And that brings us on the precipice of another thing we talk about a lot at Beyond the Crucible, and that is this idea of having fellow travelers. You have to be wise about the way you pick fellow travelers. And really, in our terms in 2026, what William Wallace sees in Robert the Bruce is someone who would make an ideal fellow traveler, not having the same skills necessarily that he does. He's got higher rank. He's got more money. He's got all those things. He's not exactly like him, but he's someone who can help him carry out his vision. And that really is a fellow traveler that he's eyeing when he's talking to Robert the Bruce, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It surely is. He sees somebody that he thinks he can win over, and he's a critical fellow traveler. It's helpful to have fellow travelers of all different kinds. But if you've got a vision that you are passionate about, if you can find a fellow traveler that has a fair amount of position and influence and the ability to make your vision become reality, that's a pretty key fellow traveler.
You could be working in a large organization. You've got this idea for a new product line, new vision, something that will take the company to the next level. If you're able to get somebody in senior management on board with that vision, that is absolutely critical fellow travelers. It's great to have all your buddies that you work with say, "I think this is a great idea, but I have zero influence or ability to make it happen, but I'm with you. Let me know if you get the green light from corporate and I'm on your team. But until then, just let me know."
So, having fellow travelers who have influence and position and the ability to help you. Who you pick as fellow travelers is important. And certainly, this is arguably the most important fellow traveler that William Wallace needs to get on board to get freedom for Scotland.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And yet William Wallace, I think, at this point in the film, sees more character in Robert the Bruce than Robert the Bruce manifests in his own life, and certainly, than he's... that he's brave enough to share, to show. He's fearful. And we'll see why his dad plays a major role in that. There's another interaction between Wallace and Robert the Bruce that follows immediately after the scene that we've been talking about. Unpack that scene a little bit to, again, show folks how this is on a continuum and it keeps moving forward. William Wallace is almost unrelenting in his wooing of Robert the Bruce to be someone who shares his vision with him.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. So, there's this other interaction where Wallace again appeals to Robert the Bruce. So, there's a dialogue that goes like this. Robert the Bruce says this. "Now you," as in Wallace, "Now you have achieved more than anyone dreamed, but fighting these odds, it looks like rage, not courage."
So Wallace says this. "It is well beyond rage. Help me. In the name of Christ, help yourself. Now is our chance, now. If we join, we can win. If we win, then we will have what none of us have ever had before, a country of our own. You're the rightful leader, and there is strength in you. I see it. Unite us. Unite us. Unite the clans."
Wallace appeals to the strength of character that he sees inside Robert the Bruce. He says that if Bruce will join them, they will win. He sees the inner strength within Robert the Bruce, his character. He says, "Unite us. Unite the clans. Unite the Scottish people." So, basically, what we see in these scenes is that Wallace is fighting for the soul of Robert the Bruce. If he wins this battle for Bruce's soul, then Scotland may be free. If he doesn't, then the Scots unlikely to win their freedom.
Sometimes when you're trying to get people on board, that's what happens. It's funny, one of the things before we aired, we've also talked about William Wilberforce, William Wallace, William Wilberforce.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It was me always saying Wilberforce by mistake, yes. Thank you for not calling me out on that work. I raise my hand and take the flower.
Warwick Fairfax:
But the reason I mention that is because later on in the late 1700s and early 1800s, Wilberforce is in a similar situation in that he is striving to abolish the slave trade in the British Empire. And here's a conservative member of parliament, and he's trying to appeal to the better angels of other members of parliament who have a huge amount of economic interest in the slave trade.
And he's saying to them, "I realize this pours in millions," or the equivalent of billions of dollars or pounds, "into the coffers of the country," and I'm sure probably helps them in their own self-interest. "But think about morality. The slave trade is morally wrong. We're meant to be religious people here. It's against God's plan. It's morally wrong." So, again, a tough sell. It's similar in the sense that both Wilberforce and Wallace are appealing to the better angels of those in power against their own self-interest. Ultimately, Wilberforce succeeds. And it took decades. But ultimately, the slave trade is abolished. And we'll see how things unfold for William Wallace. So, there are some similar beats to those stories.
Gary Schneeberger:
To the Williams. Now I'm going to say Wilberforce, but I don't mean to. I'm turning my brain the other way so that doesn't happen. Talk a little bit now, Warwick, about the Battle of Falkirk and its aftermath. And it causes a change in the same way that we saw a change caused in William Wallace earlier in the film when his vision went from peace, then to vengeance, and then it went to freedom for his people. Robert the Bruce has a change happen to him that's tied to the battle of Falkirk. Talk about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. This is one of the saddest moments in the movie, maybe the saddest. I mean, there are some other sad moments, but this is a real low point. So, in the Battle of Falkirk, the English army, they beat the Scots. Now, the Scots won before, but the key difference is this. The Scottish nobles, you see them on horseback and cavalry on the side of the battlefield, and they leave the battle. Right in the middle of the battle, there's arrows, there's swords blazing, and they leave the battlefield.
Throughout this battle, we see a noble on horseback amidst the English army. He has a helmet on. You can't see his face. It's a closed helmet. Later, we learn that that nobleman who's on the side of the English is none other than Robert the Bruce. And so, later on, after the battle is over, Wallace and Robert the Bruce encounter each other and Robert the Bruce takes off his helmet. And Wallace is absolutely crushed and devastated to see that Wallace has betrayed him. He was fighting on the side of the English army. There's almost a tear in his eye. You can see he's just absolutely broken. And that look of brokenness and betrayal on Wallace's face, that will sear deep into the soul of Robert the Bruce. It's a look that Robert the Bruce I don't know that will ever be able to get out of his soul and his consciousness.
And so, there's a powerful scene after that between Robert the Bruce and his father. Now, his father is more pragmatic. He's a realist. He wants to preserve position and power.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. That's a very charitable term. His father's perhaps more... I mean, yeah, he is pragmatic. I mean, what does he say to his son? He says, "You're the 17th Robert the Bruce." That means that 16 people before you have built up all of this wealth and all these lands and all this stuff. So, he's very much about what he can gain from the position. So, yes, he's pragmatic.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's all about power and money. And freeing the Scottish people, not so much, not high on his agenda. It's not even anywhere on his agenda.
So, there's this ensuing dialogue. So, the father says, "Son, we must have alliance with England to prevail here. You achieved that. You saved your family, increased your lands. In time, you will have all the power in Scotland." So Robert the Bruce says, "Lands, title, men, power, nothing." The father says, "Nothing?"
And so then the son, Robert the Bruce, says this. "Men fight for me, because if they do not, I throw them off my land. I starve their wives and their children. Those men who bled the ground red at Falkirk, they fought for William Wallace, and he fights for something that I've never had. And I took it from him when I betrayed him, and I saw it in his face on the battlefield, and it's tearing me apart."
The father says, "All men betray. All lose heart." And Robert the Bruce says this. "I don't want to lose heart. I want to believe as he does. I will never be on the wrong side again." That is a powerful statement.
Robert the Bruce's father is fighting to ensure that his son stays on the side of pragmatism, wealth, money, position, make sure you're going to be the future leader of Scotland. We've seen this moment that this battle for Robert the Bruce's soul is being won by William Wallace and his vision.
So, I think there's a powerful lesson here. Sometimes people will disappoint us. Maybe people have influenced the position, our bosses, parents, maybe mentors. They might let us down and they just follow their own self-interest. They won't help us. They won't follow a vision of higher purpose. And it can be crushing.
But what William Wallace shows us is don't give up. Keep appealing to the better angels of those people. Keep appealing to the goodness within their soul that somewhere in there maybe does want to believe that a higher purpose, a life of significance, a life beyond their own self-interest matters. So, if at first you don't succeed, don't give up. Keep appealing to the better angels of those often powerful people we try to influence. It could be people in your company, in your family, in your county, state. Just don't give up appealing to the better angels of those you might perceive as having more power and influence than you do. It's a powerful example that William Wallace gives us.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting to hear you talk about Wallace doing battle for Robert the Bruce's soul. Because at Beyond the Crucible, we talk a lot, you talk a lot about doing the soul work. And what happens here, really, is Robert the Bruce isn't able, because of his dad's influence or whatever, he's not really able to do a lot of soul work on his own. But William Wallace does soul work on his behalf and for him and he sees it reflected in Wallace. And that's what ultimately changes him, right? I think what you're talking about is someone helping someone do the soul work. I mean, when he says, "I want to be this," to his father, the soul work's been completed. He's done some soul work. But that's another aspect of what we do at Beyond the Crucible that we encourage people to get to. And I think it's important to see that Wallace helps Robert the Bruce get there.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such an important point you're raising, Gary. When we think about inspiring a shared vision, a critical part of it is the soul work. We're fighting for the souls of men and women, in our families, that we work with, that are in our counties, states, countries. We're trying to fight to help people think beyond their own self-interest, think of the interest of their family, their company, their state, their nation, their planet. You want them to think of just more than just their own self-interest.
And ultimately, when people are living a life of significance, living a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, that gives more joy and fulfillment than any amount of money and position can ever give you. I mean, a while back, we did a podcast on Citizen Kane. Was it Charles Foster Kane?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Charles Foster Kane, yep.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And he spent his whole life getting money and power and newspapers, and he dies alone in abject poverty of the soul. None of his money will he be able to take with him. He'll be left with nothing after he dies in that sense, from an eternal perspective. And so, yes, he was very wealthy with this massive estate, but he was poverty-stricken in the soul. You don't want to be Charles Foster Kane.
So, that's really what Wallace is fighting for. And really, more broadly, fighting for the souls of people, it's a noble cause. You're trying to help free them from the tyranny of self-interest and narrow sectarianism and all that. You're trying to help, to appeal to the better angels to fight for a noble cause, a life of significance, a life that helps other people and maybe even the world in some sense. So, really, the core of getting people on a shared vision, at least one that's a noble vision of a higher purpose, is you're fighting for the souls of people. It's a great point.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Well, we're at that point in the film and the story of Wallace's life where Robert the Bruce has gotten his soul activated, alive. So, talk a little bit about what happens next and the legacy of William Wallace, certainly as displayed in this film, but in real life as well.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, unbeknownst to Robert the Bruce, the Scottish nobles lay a trap for Wallace. Clearly, they're focused on self-interest. "We're going to carry favor with the English King Longshanks." And so they lure him into a trap, and Wallace is captured by the English troops. He's sent to London to face torture and execution. And so, the executioner basically says, "I can give you mercy," which means a quick death. That's what mercy means in this sense. But you will have to swear allegiance to the King of England.
And before he dies, Wallace is, I think, praying in a sense and saying, "God, just basically, give me strength to die well. I want to die well," because he wants to continue to inspire the Scottish people. He doesn't want to just whimper, which would be pretty understandable under torture. He doesn't want to take anything away from the cause of freedom. He knows he may die, but I don't think he's given up on the whole notion of freedom for the Scottish people.
And so, he refuses to show allegiance to the King of England. And he is executed. But what's amazing is, he's in London. This is just English people. They're not Scots. But at first, they abuse him and boo at him. But as they see his strength and his courage, and the last words he shouts with his almost last breath is freedom. And they shout to the executioner mercy, as in, "Please, let's get this over with." You can even see the executioner, who does this for a living, is moved, which is unbelievable, because executioners typically are not moved by these things. So, even then, you can see his vision. He's inspiring people even outside of Scotland.
After this, after Wallace is executed, we shift to the Battle of Bannockburn. And here we see Robert the Bruce, he's leading the Scots in victory against the British troops, and they actually do win freedom for the Scottish people. Now, it's not going to be lasting freedom in the sense of, yes, there will be a Britain and United Kingdom, but at least for a time, there is freedom for the Scottish people.
And here we have Robert the Bruce in front of his Scottish troops as Wallace was before. And he said that they have bled with Wallace, now bleed with him. So he is inspiring the Scots to have a shared vision of freedom the way that Wallace did before. He is really now in Wallace's shoes. It's truly remarkable. And even though he's a noble, he's not a commoner like pretty much everybody fighting there, he inspired the Scots. They believe now in Robert the Bruce. They believe that Robert the Bruce really does believe in the vision of freedom. He's now standing in the place, taking up the mantle of Wallace's legacy.
So, what's interesting is, fast-forward many hundreds of years, it's remarkable the final testimony to the power of this movie Braveheart and the story of William Wallace. So, in 1997, two years after the movie came out, there is a vote for a new Scottish Parliament. It's not complete independence, but it's certainly more autonomy for the Scottish people. So it's been said by some commentators that this new Scottish Parliament was powerfully influenced by the movie Braveheart and William Wallace's story.
In some sense, Wallace's battle for freedom for the Scottish people, it lived on hundreds of years later. And certainly, some measure of freedom was achieved by the legacy of William Wallace in 1997 when they voted to have a Scottish Parliament, which they have to this day. His legacy is just remarkable.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, Warwick, what are the big takeaways of William Wallace's story that we've discussed today that can help our listeners and viewers make their vision a reality, make their shared vision a shared reality? What are some of the takeaways that we've talked about today?
Warwick Fairfax:
So, inspiring a shared vision, it starts with completely living that vision. William Wallace may have begun his vision as one of vengeance to want a payback for the death of his wife and just the rape and just the murder of his wife. But his vision grew to be a vision of freedom for all of the Scottish people. His life is so inspiring in that he was just a regular man, just a common man. And ordinary people came up to him, and they wanted to fight for freedom by his side. He didn't look to lead a movement. The movement found him. It's just quite remarkable. He wasn't trying to be a leader, but people saw themselves in him. Somebody who had courage and would fight for freedom.
Not only is it important to wholly live that vision, but we have to inspire people by word and deed to not just look to their own self-interest but to a higher purpose. Wallace did that at the Battle of Stirling Bridge when some Scots were getting a little nervous, a little weak in the knees because they were just regular folks, farmers, herders, tradesmen, against the might of the English army. It's understandable they'll be anxious. And so he appealed to look beyond their own self-interest to a higher purpose, to fighting for freedom from themselves and their families.
But he also appealed to the better angels of the Scottish nobles, which was a tough sell, but especially Robert the Bruce. Wallace knew that Bruce was the leading candidate to be the future king of Scotland. And so, Wallace just saw something in Robert the Bruce, some small ember of character, of love of country, somebody that would fight for freedom. And so, Wallace was a smart guy. He knew that without Bruce, without Robert the Bruce, victory would be impossible. He might have all of the common people on his side, but without the nobles, especially Robert the Bruce, victory was impossible.
Sometimes there are critical people that we have to have on board for our vision to succeed, maybe people of power and wealth or position in our organization or our neighborhood or our country. People are naturally going to gravitate to their self-interest. Certainly, the power and wealthy will absolutely do that. We need to appeal to their better angels and their power of a higher purpose to get them on board with our vision.
We said before, William Wilberforce did in the battle to abolish the slave trade in the British Empire in the late 1700s and early 1800s. In a similar way, in a sense, in an earlier time, in the late 1200s, we've got William Wallace appealing to not just the regular people, the common men and women. He's appealing to the Scottish nobility, especially Robert the Bruce, the potential future king of Scotland.
It's just a remarkable story about the strength of modeling a vision and somebody that was doing whatever it takes to accomplish that vision using cunning, guile, intelligence, because this was a noble vision, a vision for freedom, to help people think beyond themselves for a higher purpose. It's a great role model.
And we might think that our battle to achieve our vision is not easy and our battle to get people on board with our shared vision is not easy. Think of William Wallace. He's up against the might of the English army, of the English King Longshanks. I mean, that's, like, a million-to-one odds. That's not an easy call. And he's trying to convince these Scottish nobles to back him when they're getting bribed by the English king with position and wealth and land. Why in the world would they listen to this common man? The chance of success feels like a million to one. So, if William Wallace can do it, I think there's hope for the rest of us.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's a great place to land the plane here, Warwick. And that does, indeed, friends, wrap up our first Series Within the Show episode on more stories from the book Crucible Leadership. We'll turn the page next month to another story to help you turn the page and move beyond your crucible to a life of significance.
From Success to Surrender: Chris Arnold
Our guest this week, Chris Arnold, says he dialed into a deeper, more fulfilling calling after he was let go from his six-figure corporate job. That’s right, his crucible didn’t happen to him, he says, but for him.
It was only after being freed from what he describes as the “golden handcuffs” of his job that he was able learn the lessons he’s packed into his book, FROM SUCCESS TO SURRENDER.
He and Warwick go through the key lessons he’s learned along his journey, including “success isn’t measured by what we achieve but by who we become” and “our greatest growth often comes through our deepest struggles.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax: Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Chris Arnold: The light bulb coming on of and starting to ask the question around significance. What's significance? And just really starting to... I mean, I was never in the first half of my life trying to look through the lens of what's significance. And so it was during the season. I was like, okay, significance. What does that look like?
Gary Schneeberger: That's our guest this week, Chris Arnold, discussing how he dialed into a deeper, more fulfilling calling after he was let go from his six-figure corporate job. It was only after being free from what he calls the golden handcuffs of that position, that he was able to learn the lessons he's packed into his book, From Success to Surrender. He and Warwick go through all of those lessons in this week's episode, including success isn't measured by what we achieve, but by who we become. And our greatest growth often comes through our deepest struggles.
Warwick Fairfax: Well, Chris, welcome. It's wonderful to have you on the podcast and definitely enjoy learning more about you and reading your book, From Success to Surrender. Love that title, Finding Your True Purpose in God's Perfect Timing. So we're going to talk quite a bit about what success to surrender means and a bit about Chris. Chris has spent 25 plus years as a founder, executive CEO, and advisor, launching ventures, leading teams, and helping leaders navigate growth crisis and transition. Says he lives in Indiana in Zionsville. Is that correct?
Chris Arnold: Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax: And with his wife, Lisa, and I know you have two kids having read the book, son and daughter. And you're active in your local community and mentor leaders and couples in the seasons of change. And I also saw another page that you speak from the boardroom and the breaking point, former corporate director and business advisor. He's lived a painful gap between success and significance. His journey through job loss, financial uncertainty, and spiritual awakening, uniquely positioned him to guide leaders seeking purpose in the marketplace. So a lot of good stuff. I love the phrases I read on the website, guiding leaders and families towards purpose-driven success. A lot of great things on there. So before we get to the crucible, Chris, talk about what was life growing up like for you? Talk about your parents, because they had a certain set of values and expectations for you that kind of set you, what influenced your path.
Chris Arnold: Well, absolutely. And thanks again for the invite to be here. So yeah, growing up, I grew up in a small town in Indiana, just west of the Indianapolis area. And my mom and dad were self-employed. My mom and dad owned a commercial laundry and dry cleaning business and a retail clothing business. And so I can remember growing up and working alongside dad and mom as early as kindergarten, I would get out of kindergarten, I'd be working on the flat iron folding sheets with the old ladies, their commercial laundry business. And just a lot of fond memories growing up, working alongside my parents and my sisters as well. They both, we all worked together. Self-employment sometimes is not everything that's cracked up to me. So mom and dad wanted the kids to go off school, get good grades and get a real job. So that's what all three of us did. We all went to college. I went to a school, engineering school, Rose Holman Institute of Technology, and I graduated from there in 1991. And then I was a mechanical engineer and went off into the metals industry at that point in time and started working in the metals industry.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. I mean, talk about pre-crucible. What was your frame of mind as you sort of navigated your way through life?
Chris Arnold: Yeah. I mean, it's a great question because to your point, I mean, the values of my dad I always talk about with teams are things like integrity, honesty, and hard work. My mom was a very driven person as well. So really both parents, very driven, hard workers, and that's how we grew up. I mean, we grew up working hard and grew up with the anticipation that if you worked hard, then you could achieve great things.
Warwick Fairfax: I guess 2008 was it was that the defining year. And I read somewhere that a few years back, maybe it was 2003, that your company got bought out, at least your division by a private equity firm, which I think against private equity, but that's never a good thing. If they tend to be focused purely on... I mean, it's fine to focus on money, but it's not always a long term horizon. A lot of certainly in corporate America, it's often what's quarterly earnings per share and how's that all work? And so it can change the dynamics of the company and how it looks at strategy and say long term potential is probably short term potential. So yeah, once that happened, I imagine some people might have been nervous, "Gee, what does this mean?" And sometimes you get a right to be nervous. So leading up to 2008, it felt like you felt that something was going to happen, like the writing is on the wall. So talk about, I mean, how did you feel like you knew? Because it sure felt like when the conversation happened, "Hey, Chris, can you come to my office?" There's a certain tone in that conversation sometimes. It's like, "Hm, this doesn't sound good." So how did you kind of know?
Chris Arnold: Well, and it's interesting that you mentioned 2003 and the buyout. So prior to that time, I was on the fast track. I mean, in early 30s, one of the youngest site leaders in a billion dollar multi-billion dollar manufacturing corporation. And so, and my success to that point was inspiring teams and employee engagement and really just the facility I was at in 2002, 2003 timeframe was a turnaround type of opportunity with a new acquisition and just really a great success story. And then in 2003, what ended up happening was is that the private equity firm took over. The gentleman that took over as president of the company, I wasn't necessarily 100% aligned with him initially on, myself and several on the regime. So actually several people in my regime got their papers during 2003 to exit. I was able to continue to stay on board, continue to build trust in that relationship. And for the next few years, I mean, we started to do a lot of great things with a turnaround from another facility and a new facility that we built in Arkansas in 2006 and 2007, which I had the privilege of leading the team to do. So again, during that whole season though, especially again, kids were probably at this stage, I'm thinking 10 and eight years old, my son, 10, daughter, eight years old, and I'm doing a lot of traveling. So I mean, until 2005, I'd leave out on a Monday and I'd be back on Fridays. Again, great success story, same thing in '06, '07. I mean, we had a second house on a lake and I can remember distinctly one summer that I never even saw our primary residence. I would meet the family at the lake house and we'd enjoy a weekend together. I'd wash my clothes and then I'd be off on Mondays again. So there was just things in my life that just I wasn't completely fulfilled and just the priorities I was wrestling with from a faith standpoint, I tell people I accepted Christ when I was in middle school. So there was a little bit of a faith element to things and a little bit of conversations that I was trying to have with the Lord along the way and some of these trips driving back and forth. But at the end of the day, I just was wrestling quite a bit on where I was at. And I tell people that I couldn't make the decision. It's the traditional golden handcuffs. I mean, making a pretty good six figure income and again, having the house, the kids, the lake house, second house. I mean, not that we were living extravagant lives, but living meaningful lives. And so I tell people, God made it for me. And so in 2008 when the economy tanked, myself and a couple other executives were approached with severance packages. And yeah, that moment is a very memorable moment on multiple occasions. So I think you kind of alluded to, I got a phone call to head back to the corporate office at one of our manufacturing facilities. A couple of people had been let go the day before and I just called my wife on the way to there and I said, "Honey, I think that today might be the day." And so I arrived back at the corporate office. I actually packed my stuff because I was like, "I'm pretty confident this is it." So my stuff was in a box, created up, ready to go when the senior director of HR came in and said, "Hey, you got a moment to come down to the conference room." And so he walked into the conference room and of course did the typical conversation around, "Hey, we're going to downsize, let you go." And walked, I drove a company car, so cab ride on the way home and they called the cab and we were just waiting there. The HR guy was so embarrassed because the cab was late, so we're standing outside just waiting. And so the cab driver finally comes up and I'm getting in the car and I said, "How's your day going? So I guess it's going better than yours." And I said, "You never know, brother. This could be the best day of the rest of my life."
Warwick Fairfax: Because he saw your little crate with a dead giveaway that you might have gotten let go, right?
Chris Arnold: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. So it's about 45 minute ride from the corporate office to my house and we enjoyed a great conversation. So good that once he got in my driveway, he wanted to continue the conversation. So he got out of the car. We continued the conversation, walked out to the pond behind my house and had some good conversations about fishing and took him back and showed him a fish that my son had caught and just really had a great conversation with him. And he said, "Brother, you're going to be okay." He said, "I'm a cab driver, but I'm also a counselor on the side. That's really my primary role. And a lot about this is just how you react to your circumstances. And I can tell that you're going to react in a positive way." And then stepping inside, Lisa was sitting there on the couch and I just, as I walked in with my boxing hand, I mean, she remembers this to this day is like seeing me walk in with that box and just being brokenhearted, but yet screaming at the top of my lungs, I'm free and really feeling like that and experiencing that in that moment was like, "Yeah, it was tough and nobody wants to go through that experience." However, there was a sense of freedom at that moment of saying, "Okay, don't know what's next, but I do know that this feels right."
Warwick Fairfax: So talk about those early days. I think you had, I don't know if it was 40 days, but a period of time in which you reflected basically as you journaled and prayed, "Well, God, what next?" And I felt like some people talk about doing business with God or maybe it's God doing business with us depending on how you look at it, I suppose. But it felt like those were pivotal days in your life. So what were some of the thoughts and the discussions that were going on in your head between you and yourself, you and God, God and you? I mean, there was a whole series of dialogues going on. So talk a bit about those dialogues as yes, you were free, but there was a lot of things to think about and consider and, gee, where am I going with my life? Where have I been? Where do I want to go? There was a lot of very deep discussions you were having.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. Yeah. And so I mean, Rick Warren's book, The 40-Day Purpose, what is it?
Gary Schneeberger: The Purpose-Driven Life.
Chris Arnold: The Purpose-Driven Life. Yeah. It was popular back in those days. So I think that's kind of what probably set the context of saying, "Hey, look, I'm just going to take 40 days." And so it was intentional that I wanted to carve out 40 days and just really lean into and take this time, knowing it was a great pivotal time in my life. Again, I had a severance package, so I had some time. I didn't necessarily have to rush and go find the next opportunity. And so it was very intentional that I wanted to take 40 days, but again, at that stage, it's like, "Okay, now what? Okay, I'm going to take 40 days. What's this look like? " So I mean, I would just get up in the morning and pick up my Bible and a notepad and I'd look for a particular verse and start going through and journaling and writing at that point in time on just things that were coming to mind, thoughts that were coming to mind. And actually, this is the season of my life too where I started to pick up journaling and I think it's just a discipline that I highly encourage everyone to do. I've been journaling ever since that time in my life. And as I look back during that season, I tell folks that there were ... The themes that were really coming up is that I would told you that God and family were priorities in my life. However, reality is I wasn't off track, totally, but they weren't the priorities. It was all about my career and career success. And so, and even in the career aspects of things, I was huge on employee engagement, servant leadership, but at a deep level, what God started to convict me of is that a lot of that servant leadership was achieving what Chris was trying to achieve. So motivating teams was more about, okay, Chris and the goals and everything that he was trying to accomplish, I really got that personal conviction. It sounds harsh to say it that harshly, but it was at the end of the day. So reordering things, I mean, stepping away from that and saying, "Okay, I want to really be intentional about reordering things. God, I really want to put you first. I want to put my family next and then beyond that, then I want my career to kind of fall in alignment." So it was during that season as well that I think some of my... I started to work with mission statements, vision statements for my life. I mean, we all do this for business a lot of times, but we sometimes neglect trying to do it for ourselves. And I think a mission statement and a vision statement started to evolve at that point in time. One of the lens that I kind of filter through things even yet today that came is to experience freedom and flexibility to serve God wherever I called without concern for income. So it was just, that's a lens that even today, I mean, it's just what I really filter things through is that experience of being able to experience that freedom and flexibility that I wasn't experiencing because at the time that I was doing all that traveling and everything, I was missing ball games. And that's the thing that I distinctly remember about my dad in self-employment was that, man, he worked hard, we worked hard, we worked a lot of Sundays and nights keeping the place running, but at the end of the day, I never remember my dad missing a ballgame. And that was something that I looked at and said, "Look, yeah, I want to be that too. I don't know what this looks like for me, but I just know that from a value standpoint, I want to get some things realigned and make sure that my priorities are in order."
Gary Schneeberger: So we ask our guests all the time, folks, you may not know this, we ask our guests to fill out a forum so we can ask intelligent questions when we're doing the interviews. And one of the things that you said, Chris, to the question about the best advice you could offer people was the most critical action is to slow down and listen. And you just described that a little bit, and we talk a lot at Beyond the Crucible about self-reflecting. In fact, we have what we call the actionable truths of Beyond the Crucible, and that's one of the top ones is self-reflection. And you sort of walked through that a little bit. After a setback, let me ask you this, right? The most critical action is to slow down and listen, but that can come. Yes, you were reading your Bible, you were communing with God, but even people who perhaps don't have the same faith that you have, it can come in the form of self-reflection, right? Because you talked a little bit about self-reflection. What we tell ourselves truthfully about ourselves is an important part of how we bounce back from a crucible. Talk about that a little bit.
Chris Arnold: Yeah, that's a great observation and slowing down and taking time. My wife and I were actually just talking about this a couple weeks ago, that during that season, I could have gone off and gotten another job. I could have started looking for the next corporate opportunity, but it was the fact that I took time and intentionally slowed down and said, "Okay, I'm not. " And even to that point, career coaching wise, I actually encourage folks to identify what the runway is. And often that runaway is longer than what they tell you, if they really stop and think about it. And then I said, "Break it out in thirds." And I said, "For that first third, don't take anything. Just stop, slow down, listen, and open up to the world of possibilities." And really, and to your point, Gary, I mean, a lot of it is self-reflection too. I mean, it's getting into, how am I wired? How am I created? What are my gifts? What are my talents? And coaching, I think you guys are both familiar with coaching process. And the first step of that is a lot of times is just getting people conscious of who they are. And so that was the season. And in the season that I think that really when you get into the 40 days, that was a lot of it was just the self-reflection, getting conscious of who am I, what are my gifts, what are my talents, how am I created? And then it was like, okay, now how do you go from that, take that next step? Where do we go from here? And that's where the journey really began. I mean, yeah, that was just the beginning for me. And then the journey started to unfold from that point.
Warwick Fairfax: One of the things that happened then, which was frankly painful to read, there was one time when, I guess you've got two kids like Chris Jr. And Kylie, right? And then your daughter, Kylie, something happened that day at school. And so you were asking about it and you asked some question and your response was that Kylie said, "Why do you care? You haven't been home the past five years." That has got to be every parent and as a dad, every dad's almost like worst nightmare talk about, and you write, you say it's a punch to the gut as it would be. There's self-reflection and then there's... I mean, that must have... You were thinking about this anyway, but that must have really said, "Okay, I got to do things differently because I don't want to hear Kylie or Chris say that to me again." I mean, that's obvious, but talk a bit about that because that had to have been painful. But amongst the pain, there was also value. It gave you opportunities, "Okay, I'm going to do things differently."
Chris Arnold: Yeah. As you were just reading that, it brings back the experience and almost tearing up a little bit, just thinking about the moment that that all transpired. And again, that's truly how she felt in that time and then in that moment in that season, and it was humbling to really reflect back on that and say, "Wow, as a mirror, back to me, something that I already knew, but to hear that directly from her child." Matter of fact, before I put things in the book, I've made sure that I've reviewed them with the kids and said, "Hey, this is a circumstance that I put in the book." And we just talked about it this past year again. And so it brought back some memories of that season and what's not in the book also that we cherish as a family is that she was approaching middle school at that time, but middle school started to be difficult years for her. And then into high school, she really had a lot of mental health challenges and ultimately transparently at age 15 was suicidal and just some very difficult moments at that. And so as a father, a couple things for that. One was I was blessed to be home to deal with that. So we look back on that season because I chose the career option that I did with coaching and the freedom of flexibility to be home more, I was there to support the family at that seasonal life. And I was the one that was taking her to counseling sessions and various things, which was a tremendous time of our looking back from that aspect of our life. But yeah, I mean, as a father too though, don't you even bet or have to doubt that I wasn't wrestling with, okay, all these years I was away from home, is that the reason we are where we are today? Because of not being there as a father, was I the absent father that led to a lot of the mental health challenges that she was suffering from? So yeah, there was some seasons there that, again, go back to self-reflection. I really had to start wrestling during those seasons as well about me as a father. Now, we've coming out on the other side of that and sure, there's things, but again, I wasn't the cause for all that now that we're on the other side of it.
Warwick Fairfax: So I want to talk a bit about calling and vocation. You've got so many good things in your book. I love this quote by Frederick, is it Buechner, Buechner? I'm not sure I pronounced that.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. Buechner, I think is probably it.
Warwick Fairfax: Warwick Fairfax: Buechner. Okay. Your calling is where your deepest passions meet the world's greatest needs. I mean, I think I've come across that, but I love that. And you were really trying to find out your calling. I love the questions you have in here that somebody posed to you about helping to figure out calling. What do you think about most often? What do you worry about? What do you complain about? Where do you run for comfort? Where does the majority of your money go? What affirmation do you crave? What makes you happy? How do you describe yourself to others? And I think somewhere in here, you talk about your gifts of being administration and wisdom. And yeah, so talk about, because that must have been huge because a lot of people run around in life not knowing how they're wired. I think you came across halftime at one point that also has a lot of hugely valuable material. So talk about how did that help you navigate your life as you started off in coaching and consulting, just really understanding from your perspective how God wired you. That must have been huge because a lot of people, they just run off, get a job and they're not thinking about, "Gee, what's my gifting and wiring?" Just off they go. What am I passionate about? It's like, "I'm passionate about being able to pay my mortgage and rent. That's what I'm thinking about and that's it." So just talk about what that meant for you and why it's so important for people.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. You mentioned Bob Buford in halftime and it was during that 40 day season or shortly following that I ran across that book. And again, the theme through that is from success to significance. Actually, I had somebody at halftime just after my book launched, mentioned to me, said, "Hey, I think your book title is actually Buford's original title, From Success to Surrender but they told him that it would never sell because of the word surrender." And I went back to Bob's passed away, so nobody knows, but they believe that that is... I went back to halftime and they said they do believe that is true. But also what they talk about in that is that in order to go to significance, they do talk through people around this whole process of what surrender look like. So the light bulb coming on of ... And starting to ask the question around significance, what's significance? And just really starting to... I mean, I was never in the first half of my life trying to look through the lens of what's significance. And so it was during the season I was like, "Okay, significance. What does that look like?" And then even things like, "Hey, were we created on purpose for a purpose?" Again, never wrestled with any of those kind of things before. So starting to try to process through, "Hey, are we created on purpose for a purpose?" And if so, if we're called to do something, then how specific is that calling? So that's always the paradox that I think that over the last now, probably 15 years, I've wrestled with, watched other people wrestle with is like, okay, they really wrestle with, okay, in my worldview, if God has a specific calling, then how specific is that calling? So yeah, I've spent a lot of time trying to work through that. I think that the light bulb that's come on for me though is that, yeah, I believe that all of us are created for a specific purpose. And ultimately, we're wired with gifts and like you've mentioned, I mean, administration, wisdom, faith is the other one as well that's a spiritual gift of mine. And then just the leadership abilities, all those gifts, those are the ways that I'm wired. And then how do you walk that out? Is there a specific way or a purpose? And what I also did and fell into the trap of a lot of time, which I see happens a lot of times, is I started to tie it to a vocation. Now where I'm at today, so my purpose simply stated is to come alongside leaders and help them discover their purpose and intentionally fulfill that purpose. That's what I'm created to do in short. And so looking through that lens, what I discovered is like, yeah, I do that as a coach, but I also, we'll get to probably here in a few minutes. I was president and CEO of a company for seven years during this journey as well, and I was still fulfilling that purpose through... And it also goes back to what I told you earlier about having a vision statement, experiencing freedom, flexibility to serve God wherever called without concerned income. Again, when you go into evaluating president and CEO roles, those were lenses that I kind of filtered that through. So yeah, this whole aspect around purpose and helping people discover what that is for them and their lives is something I'm passionate about. My sense is it's something you're passionate about as well.
Warwick Fairfax: Oh, absolutely. But it's interesting, your journey back was not necessarily a linear, smooth one. It might not have been the same level of crucible, but there were challenges. I mean, life is not easy. It reminds me one of my favorite quotes from a former prime minister of Australia back in '75 during the election, Malcolm Frazee was a conservative. And in a moment of madness and honesty, he said life wasn't meant to be easy. How many politicians have you ever heard say that? I mean, it's just like, it's true, but it's not really a good political sales line, but anyway, but it's true. So one of the things that people of faith and beyond wrestle with is most people these days, it may not be religious necessarily, but they're spiritual, they want to make a difference. And so sometimes for believers, there can be a sense, "Well, if I really want to be fully on board for the kingdom and for God and Jesus, gosh, I need to be in some overtly Christian ministry.
And there was a bit of wrestling with that. And then a number of people said, "No, God needs people in the marketplace who are believers." It's not so much from my perspective saying Jesus lives every day, but more in how you treat people with integrity and honesty and care for them and love them. And as I look at it. But you wrestled with that a bit. And as we'll get into, you even had a couple times when you almost became executive pastor of two different churches, one in Kentucky, one in Indianapolis. So it's not like you... So talk about that whole, because that seemed like a throughline too is it okay for me to do my consulting coaching and then see over business? And because it's easy sometimes in church, you see people in missionaries overseas and it's like, I guess that's the A team, right? I guess I must not be the A team, which is completely biblically wrong, but it's tempting to fall into that. Or I'm not leading some nonprofit to help bring clean water to a Third World country. I'm just making money. Even if you're not a person of faith, it's easy to believe I'm a sellout because I'm not really helping people. Heaven forbid, I'm a corporate lawyer investment banker. How's that redemptive? I'm not saying that's true, but it's easy to think that. So talk a bit about what that meant for you and what that means more generally, this wrestling with your power.
Chris Arnold: Well, you're right. It's a big part of the story. And for me, there's a marketplace ministry that's headquartered here in Indianapolis, Indiana. So in 2009, I had some people encouraging me to step in and join it and sit in it as it's personal advisory boards for Christian business owners. And so I chose to go ahead and sit in an advisory board. And over the... I distinctly remember one advisory board in February of 2011 where I walked into the room and I said, "We rate our issues on a scale of one to 10, 10 being absolutely critical and needed to get on the table." And so I said, "I guess I better say I got to attend today." And the facilitator says, "What is it?" I said, "Well, I got a $12,000 tax bill and I'm really not sure I'm going to pay. However, that's not the issue." The issue is, am I doing what God's calling me to be doing in life?
It's because it's like there's just things we're not clicking. Again, using the financial barometer, I wasn't, again, still trying to live the six figure lifestyle, hadn't backed out. We didn't really downsize a whole lot in our lifestyle. And then in 2012, that marketplace ministry began to expand nationally. And so they needed someone to step in the Indianapolis area and start facilitating groups in the Indianapolis area to allow the leadership team to really focus on growing the organization. And so in 2012, I joined as a chapter president was the title that they use and started facilitating groups. And in 2012, that whole year, I mean, I would talk to people and two out of three people I would talk to would join. And so I was like, "Man, this is it." I built four groups and I distinctly remember sitting with the CEO of this organization in January of 13, kind of looking back on 12 and saying, "Hey, you're only a few people away from ultimately being a place where you've got financial sustainability and so on."
And then lo and behold, in 2013, I talked to a hundred people and two people joined. And I'm like, "What in the world is happening?" So really wrestling again, thinking that, okay, I have marketplace ministry, facilitating this group. So I was doing what God was calling me to do and thinking now I'm in this season of reevaluating, okay. And then even getting to the place where just through some unique circumstances, I take a spiritual retreat day generally every first Friday of the month. And through these circumstances, having a spiritual retreat, I'd gone to Kenya in September, had a good experience there and just came back from that and October was really wrestling, trying to understand and just through some unique circumstances, felt that God was really convicting me, "Don't turn my father's house into a marketplace."
And so it was, again, coming back to money, really convicting me at a heart level, and that's one of the biggest things that as you read the book that I really had to turn loose of, and still today is continually my thorn to my flesh probably of just financial security and turning loose of the financial security in life and leaning in on the promises that provision will be there. So yeah, that ended up... At that season, I wrestled, ultimately ended up wrestling so much that I went to the organization and said, "Hey, look, these groups that I'm actually getting paid a substantial money, amount of money to facilitate, I'm going to have to back down on them because I'm so convicted over this and give them up." I kept one group that was kind of a nonprofit group that I've still facilitated to this day, but I needed to transition at that point in time. And that's 2015 timeframe, and then that's where it picks up with you alluded to, "Well, maybe I'm being called to be an executive pastor." So I started interviewing at that point.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. Just one of the things you talk about in the book is wrestling with financial security and money as an idol, you call it, which I'm not familiar with. We all have idols where we can put our significance in things that are not eternal or not necessarily in line with our beliefs and values. So that's something you wrestled with, which we all have them. And so that really was a bold step of faith to do what you did. But just before you got into, I think it's uplift that non... Uplift [inaudible 00:36:38].
Chris Arnold: Uplift Good Food On Purpose.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. If there was a plan for you to be in ministry, it sure seemed like there were two big signs that not in a traditional sense. If you believe God speaks through circumstances, and they were not easy. The one in Kentucky and the one in Indianapolis, I think your son at one point said, "Hey, basically don't get your hopes up too much." And maybe he had a prophetic word. I don't know.
Chris Arnold: Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax: So there you go.
Chris Arnold: Yeah, that's definitely a memorable moment as well. Yeah. The one in Kentucky, I mean, we really felt that the handwriting was all over the wall that we were going. And to your point, we were sitting at dinner one evening and Christopher says, "Hey, you guys got to stop your dreams up about Kentucky." And I'm like, "Son, we never know what God has in the store, but man, the handwriting is pretty clear on this one." And he's like, "Well, okay, but you might need to eat some humble pie." And we generally don't have our phones at the table, but it was sitting behind me and I heard the phone buzz and I just grabbed it and picked it up. And lo and behold, it was the email in the inbox from the senior pastor saying, "Hey, we're choosing to go in another direction." So boy, if you don't think that that was a humility, tested humility, that was-
Warwick Fairfax: It feels like in both cases, I guess you probably don't know, but you were down to the last two or three. You weren't like one of 50.
Chris Arnold: I was second runner up on both occasions. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax: So what did you make of that, saying, "God, what's the deal here? Why get me so close and then shut the door on my face?" So I'm sure you've had those conversations. Did you get any sense of what all that meant and why you got so close, but then the answer's no?
Chris Arnold: I think it's just part of the whole journey of stripping a lot of things away and faith and trust and then again, stripping my finances away too. I mean, at the end of the day, we went negative net worth. We went from a substantial network to negative net worth during this season. So we were at this... As I was interviewing for the second one in late 2015, early 2016, we were going negative at that point in time. And again, wrestling with the fact that shouldn't I be earning a living and trying, not that I wasn't trying to do some other things to earn a living, it just wasn't happening for me. So yeah, I think just coming to the end of myself, sometimes we use the depth of self experience and that was like the final nail in the coffin for me, I think, is like that whole season of interviewing for about a year period of time and not being able to even land myself in a church. It's like, "Are you kidding me? I can't even go serve at a church."
Warwick Fairfax: So that wasn't to be. And then in 2016, you became CEO, excuse me, of Uplift. So because you were there for seven years, so that sounds like that was really fulfilling. You felt like you were doing good for this company, providing sustainable, healthy produce. That must have been a pretty cool season. You're using your gift of administration and faith. You must have felt like, "This is it, Lord, I'm here for the next 20 years. Let's go."
Chris Arnold: Yeah, the quarterback was back on the field, man. It's one thing to be a coach. It's another one to get the quarterback back on the field. So yeah, I mean, through some circumstances, I had a couple friends that had approached me really just to, as sometimes happens in the coaching consulting world is step in, help them out. And that's how it was initially is, "Hey, can you step in?" And indoor farming, growing lettuce indoors was under lights was ultimately the business venture that was an emerging technology all over the world, candidly, back in that season and the US was really starting to take root back in the season of life and stepped into that and as you often do as a coach consultant for six months, kind of determined, "Hey, the current business model was not going to be successful." Ended up deciding to go ahead and let the original founder go at that season, but we're sitting there with significant investment funding and went to the board and said, "Hey guys, you can get out now, cut your losses, or we can go... There's a lot of excitement in this area. We can go look and see and try to find somebody to partner up with and that can provide a turnkey farm solution and we can go have a good run at this." And so they chose the latter. So US-wise, we did due diligence on some folks in the US, just couldn't find the right partner with the right technology emerging at that time. And so came across a company out of the Netherlands, Plantlab was the name of them and really struck up a great relationship with them and came to a place of deciding that we wanted to partner with them in a 50-50 joint venture on bringing their technology to the US. So yeah, to your point, yes, in the zone at this season of things, things were... It's like this business is never completely easy, but ultimately waking up every morning, energized, thinking, "Man, we're finally there, man." From a Christian's perspective, "Hey, you molded my heart, you got my heart, my values in the right place, and ultimately let's go do this together." And so to that point, I mean, yeah, Uplift, the brand that we launched was Uplift, Uplift Good Food On Purpose. It was somewhat of a social impact. There was a community, a nonprofit that I was one of our investors in combination with several for profit folks, and really had a plan to get back to the community, create jobs in that community, and then healthy produce. And then that ended up moving forward to a potential partnership with a large food distributor, Cisco, throughout the worldwide food distributor, and had intent to build multiple farms starting out in the US and major metropolitan areas in the US, and started to go through the construction estimates on a farm, and this is kind of fast forwarding into, we're all way into 2022 now, that we were fast forwarding into basically, and came off of that in Pompano Beach, Florida was going to be the first joint venture farm there, highly automated, show-place, good place to fly people into, and show the place off. And just once we got all the estimates in, it didn't pencil out on paper. So we had to make the tough decision to pull out of the North American market, and unfortunately since that time, this past year, pull out of the worldwide as well, the company shut down worldwide. But yeah, great run from a culture standpoint, probably, I mean, other people listening to this might debate this, but I think we were known as having probably the best operation here in Indianapolis, Indiana. And the reason I attribute that is a lot around the culture that we were able to build. It was very much employee engagement. I'm a huge Patrick Lencioni fan of five dysfunctions as a team, so trust, conflict, those kind of the five aspects of that. And then brought in some great young leadership, also brought in folks that were second chance employment as well. I mean, people that had historical backgrounds and were just thankful to have a job and have a great family to come into and work with on a day-to-day basis.
Warwick Fairfax: So you mentioned in 2023 when that company decided to pull out of the North American market, talk about what that was you were going through because that's another season of reflection. You've had a number of seasons of reflection, and this is another opportunity. It's like, "Lord, can I just be done with these seasons of reflection, at least not this kind? I think I got the message." He said, "Well, Chris, I've got a few more lessons." "Oh, come on. Enough of the lessons. I'm ready to graduate." But such as life is really that way. So that must have been tough because it's like, well, now what? I was in the zone, as you said, the quarterbacks on the field, that must not have been easy when that ended. All the business reasons made sense of why potentially, but still, what were you thinking then when that ended? Because it must not have been easy.
Chris Arnold: You captured it. It was like, "Okay, now what? Why again? Are we going here again?" I've been here before. So to your point though, I mean, yeah, I think as that happened, I mean, you always go back into reflection mode. It was like, "Okay, what am I supposed to be learning from all this? What are you teaching me from all this?" And I tell people that it was subtle, but it was... And again, this is in my world and in my belief system, but being more connected to the dream than I was connected to my Lord. So I started chasing after the dream and all the things we were great things we were doing together and kind of subtle, but left that relationship, one-on-one relationship I had with my heavenly father, not totally in behind, but it just wasn't like it once was and now is.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. Just for listeners, whether you're people of faith like Chris is, the broader issue is you can have a set of beliefs, but we talk about this a lot, mission drift, and you can subtly drift so that the dream, the mission becomes an idol. There's nothing wrong with having healthy, nutritious produce. Nothing wrong with that. That's a good vision, but the key is make sure that that doesn't become an idol. "Hey, look at me, I'm Chris Arnold and I'm doing these wonderful things and you should respect me." And that probably is not a verb on the top of your mind, but there might have been a few grains in there. And anybody, that can happen to any of us, whether irrespective of what your belief system... We talk about idols a lot. You never want to have money or what you do as an idol. So I want to talk a bit about what you do now, because you say that this whole thing has clarified your calling to use your gift of wisdom, to lead people in the intentional discovery and fulfillment of their God given purpose. And I love what you talk about is the truths that you say echo through the book. And these are profound. Success isn't measured by what we achieve, but by what we become, God's timing is perfect even when it doesn't match our schedule. Our greatest growth often comes through our deeper struggles. True freedom is found in surrender, not control. Every closed door can hide unexpected blessings. Ministry happens wherever God places it. So talk about what you do now and maybe some of the key two or three things that God has taught you in this journey.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, what I do now is coming alongside leaders and their families is another thing. My wife, Lisa and I, she's joined me in this effort. We just did a sideline on her part of the story. We started doing premarital counseling back in 2019. Some girls approached her and said, "Hey, will you do premarital counseling?" So we evolved into that world. And then since that time, I have partnered up with our church and we do premarital and then I'm also ordained to do weddings. So marriage and family is an element that we brought to it. And then my daughter-in-law also has come along beside us as well with my son and their health journeys and she's a health coach too. So we're really looking to come alongside leaders and their families, help them go through this process of alignment and start to ask the questions and recognizing like we've talked that you don't figure this all out in 40 days. I mean, there is a journey that you need to go through. And then that's also part of why the book actually... The book was actually written in 2018. It wasn't until this past year that I actually published it. Just a quick sideline on that, one of the things that I was really wrestling to get to finish the book. And the reason being is that I wanted to get to the top of the mountain and look back and be able to tell that uplift story and be able to talk about, "Hey, here was the journey. Yeah, I went through the valley and ultimately, but man, whenever the 23 event transpired and that ended up really..." And if you're reading the epilogue of the book, I mean, I talk about, hey, God really convicted me that, hey son, it's not about the particular destination. It's about the journey. And so that was really what sparked the idea of... I'd always wanted to tell my story because I felt like people could learn from that journey. And so that's basically what I ended up doing was the book was getting very intentional about finishing the book and getting it published, but also in the effort of publishing the book, making sure that it does more... It's a teaching memoir. So as you know, I mean, ultimately at the end of each chapter, there's questions that are reflection questions. There's also, we've built into this also a whole... I'll share more about our website and information later on, but if you come to our information, you'll see that there's a 40-day journey that we, because the 40-day journey was so important to me, so we put together a devotional series and a study companion guide that kind of goes with all this stuff. And again, it's really packaging up a lot of the things that I learned in my journey such that in this coaching relationship, it's the foundation and a lot of times at the starting point for someone to come in and start to work alongside and wrestle through some of this stuff.
Warwick Fairfax: As we close here, you've got some profound thoughts that you're talking about on the epilogue, and this is really worthy of people reflecting on. The season has crystallized the core message of the book, true transformation happens in the walking, not the arriving. We can get so focused about getting to the top of the mountain, which you did even back in the uplift days. I want to write the book when I'm at the top of the mountain. I'm sure now you'd say that was probably a wrong promise, because it's not about the top of the mountain, which obviously you've learned and I've certainly tried to learn. Each closed door, each desert season, each moment of surrender shaped us more than any achievement could. Just the beauty and the power of surrender. You talk about these three truths, every step of surrender shapes us more into his image. In other words, God's image. Our greatest ministry often flows from our deepest struggles. I've got a whole podcast about, talks about my failures. It's pretty much, I mean, other people's challenges, but for me, my failures, I've learned a lot through that. When we walk with God, we're always exactly where we need to be. And I love this thing, and I don't know if you have it there on your desk, but there's like a little... I don't know what you call it, if it's a sailboat or something. Ship.
Chris Arnold: Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax: So on it says, "The man who walks with God always gets to his destination. Just the power of God, whoever you feel is up there, your core beliefs and values, it's walking with those rather than focus on the destination." Do you have that there just to show people-
Chris Arnold: It's across the room. I can go grab it if you'd like me to.
Warwick Fairfax: Why not? Why not? Because it's a pretty powerful thing. Might want to grab it.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. It's across the room where I can look at it, but...
Warwick Fairfax: There we go. And on that, on that boat, again, the man who walks with God always gets to his destination. So folks, what we're saying here is it's about the journey, not the destination. Don't get so focused on, gosh, when I get to the CEO or get a million dollars or five million or whatever, then I'll be happy. No, I don't care what your beliefs and values are. Success in of itself doesn't make you happy. It's the journey. And that's really, I think, maybe what you're talking about, surrender, right? It's like it's enjoy the journey, surrender the outcome. Is that like a fair summary as we close?
Chris Arnold: I couldn't have said it any better.
Gary Schneeberger: That sounds you heard folks was the captain turning on the fast and seatbelt sign, indicating that our plane is descending to land this episode of Beyond the Crucible. Until we do that though, so put your peanut bags away, but we're not quite there yet. I'd be remiss, Chris, if I didn't ask you how our listeners and viewers can reach you on the internet, learn more about your coaching and anything else that you may have that they can explore.
Chris Arnold: Yeah. So there's multiple ways. Probably the easiest way is to go to our book website, which is fromsuccesstosurrender.com. And then well through that, you can navigate to a couple other different sites. I've got chrisarnold.org and then the lastinglegacycollective.com. And then I'm very active on LinkedIn as well. I think that's probably how we got connected.
Gary Schneeberger: Warwick, as always, the last question or questions of the guest are yours.
Warwick Fairfax: So Chris, there might be somebody listening today, maybe today's their worst day, maybe they've been fired from that job that was either in the C-suite or was going to lead to the C-suite. Maybe they were like your son who had a dream of being a high school quarterback and maybe college quarterback and to have injuries that basically the doctor says, "You got to give it up." Maybe you're either the C-suite executive that got fired or the high school kid that could have been the quarterback like his dad. So what would a word of hope be to somebody that's in that position which they feel like my dreams have just turned to ashes and what now?
Chris Arnold: Well, first of all, it's acknowledging that it's not easy. I mean, it is a painful experience as much as it's looking back, telling the story and even talking about the fact that freedom walking into the door, it's easy to sit here and say that, but yet, yes, there still was a lot of pains and suffering through that. So experiencing that, yet recognizing it's not the end of the world. And that too, the story that hopefully you've heard today is that I've been joying life and it was a transitional, very pivotal point in my life that freed me up to do some great things on going out and serving people in a completely different perspective, which hopefully you can tell that I'm going with great joy on a day-to-day basis.
Gary Schneeberger: Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word's been spoken on a subject and our guest, Chris Arnold, just spoke it. Warwick, we just finished our discussion with our guest, Chris Arnold. And as we always do when we have guests on the show, I ask you, what's the big takeaway from Chris's crucible story and his bounce back story and his life of significant story? What's the big learning that we walk away with from our interview with Chris today?
Warwick Fairfax: Chris Arnold is a fascinating guy. He went through the crucible of being on track to doing exceptionally well at a company in Indianapolis. He was making quite a lot of money and with the prospect of making more and was going to very successful, worked hard. And on the surface, it seemed like he was living his values, he's a person of faith, but yet in practice, he was away most of the week. He missed a lot of his son and daughter's games and activities they were involved in. And so in a sense, it's a very sobering lesson. Whether you're a person of faith and his faith in Christ is of course who he is, whether you're a person of that faith, some other religious faith, or just him or broadly, just other spiritual paradigms, it's very easy to drift from your beliefs and values and your mission. And it's very easy to have money or success as an idol. Nothing wrong with success, but when your whole sense of self gets defined in what you do, how much you make, that is never good. And so when he got fired and let go, he had enough self-awareness to realize there was a problem. He wouldn't have left voluntarily because how do you give up that kind of career income and prospects, but he felt freedom, but yet it wasn't an easy journey back. There were a number of things, like you thought, "Gosh, I'm a person of faith, maybe I should be an executive pastor." Twice, it got down to two people and he was not the person that was picked. That's devastating is what's up with that. Then his CEO for, I don't know, six, seven years of a company called Uplift that is about producing healthy food, and that ended up ending. It's been a journey coming alongside people, coaching them, consulting with them, mentoring folks, including families. And his profound wisdom is, he says, "True transformation that happens in the walking, not the arriving." It's not about getting to the top of the mountain. Life is never about Oh, when I get to the top of the mouth and I'll be happy. Life is about being happy in the journey, having a sense of joy through the bad times and the good times. Hard to have joy in the bad times. I fully realize that. We've all been through that. We're just saying life is going to have its ups and downs, but enjoying the journey, the times that feel like that are tough, there can be so much learning and wisdom that both Gary and I have certainly learned in our own lives. And so it is really about the journey, not the destination. This is something I'm sure you might have heard before, but Chris Arnold's life is a testament to don't focus on the destination, focus on the journey and make sure that you live your beliefs and values along the way. Don't be that mom. Don't be that dad who, when your kids grow up, if you have kids say, "Mom, dad, you were never around. I was hurting. I had a big game. You were not there. You were not present. I needed you and you didn't show up." There's always, well, hopefully there's always forgiveness. There's always redemption. But you don't want to be that mom or dad. You don't want to be that sister, that brother, that uncle, that aunt, that friend who was not around. You want to be somebody that lives your beliefs and values and not just have them as a bumper sticker, as the company that a lot of us have heard of, Enron that was very notorious for, went under because they had all sorts of scandals and financial impropriety, but yet their mission was all about caring people and uplifting them. But they weren't living that. You don't want to be CEO of an Enron kind of company when you're not living your beliefs and values. You don't want to be the kind of person that says, "Yes, that person, their beliefs and values sounded good, but they really didn't live it. And their family, their friends, but all say that." You don't want to be that to be your legacy. So Chris has spent years trying to make sure that he lived in light of his beliefs and values. And even when he was trying, after he got fired from that company all those years ago in 2008, it still wasn't easy. And he was trying. It still was tough not to have finances and success as an idol. So it's not only is life a journey, life is a journey trying to live and lie to you with beliefs and values. That isn't easy, but let us at least try. And when we go through challenges, let's see them as gifts that happen for us and not to us. And so, okay, maybe I need to up my game in terms of living my beliefs and vanities. Maybe I'm too focused on the destination, not the journey. So a lot of wisdom that we can learn from Chris Arnold.
Gary Schneeberger: So until the next time we're together, please remember this. We know your crucible experiences are difficult. Chris, despite the fact that... He chuckled quite a bit through talking through his, despite the fact that when he went through his really big crucible, he actually said, "I'm free at the end of it." There were some struggles that went with that. But you heard it here today, the good news about his story, and it can be the good news about your story too. It's not the end of your story, your crucible isn't. In fact, if you learn the lessons from that crucible and you apply those lessons moving forward, the destination it can lead you to is the greatest destination you can ever reach. And that is a life of significance. Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance
BEST OF 2025: Meet Our “Actionable Truths”
Our research into how people experience crucibles and chart a path beyond them led us to identify a core set of “actionable truths” — 10 in all — that will help you overcome the impediments you face as you navigate your unique journey from trials to triumph.
In this first episode of what we’re calling the series within the show, we’ll discuss the insights the roadmap offers and identify each of the actionable truths.
And don’t forget to tune into the 10 episodes that followed that unpack the importance of each of the truths, along with tips on how you can activate them
Don’t forget to subscribe for more leadership and personal growth insights: https://www.youtube.com/@beyondthecrucible
Follow Beyond the Crucible on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beyondthecrucible
Follow Warwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/warwickfairfax/
Follow Beyond the Crucible on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beyondthecrucible
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Beyond the Crucible: Actionable TruthsWarwick Fairfax: Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. These actionable truths, they will help you get beyond your worst day and your crucible. They will also help you make your vision become a reality. These are critical both for you and the team that you work with. So these concepts might seem like, well, yes, they're concepts, but we call them actionable truths because if you live these out, whether it's self-reflection or authenticity, just a big two out of the 10, they can be life-transforming, they can be vision-transforming.
Gary Schneeberger: What are these actionable truths anyway? That's what you'll discover this week as we take a big picture look at a big refinement in the ways we help you move from trials to triumphs. So fasten your virtual seat belts as we begin our year-long drive through the Beyond the Crucible roadmap and the fresh insights it offers to help you not be defined by your worst day.
So today folks, we're going to discuss an exciting new development in the Beyond the Crucible thinking for turning trials into triumphs. Now, if you've been with us for any period of time, you've heard us talk about things that help you do that. We have refined what our counsel, our wisdom, and our help to you is. And this is what we're going to talk about in this first episode of the New Year. We call them actionable truths, these things that we're going to talk to you about that will help you move from trial to triumph, that will help you navigate that journey to your life of significance.
The Evolution: Stage One & Two
Gary Schneeberger: But before we can move into what we're doing next, we need to take a little time reviewing where we've been. It started with your book, Crucible Leadership, your Wall Street Journal bestselling book. We’re not throwing anything out, we're just refining things. Stage one was founded in 2018. The process was: It starts with being refined. Then leaning into your design. Then casting a vision, and then making that vision a reality.
Warwick Fairfax: It's interesting, Gary, as I was writing the book, we were talking about the intrinsic model. The first step, Refine, is when you're facing your worst day. You got to process it. We often say that crucibles don't have to happen to you; they can happen for you. A crucible, if we allow it, can be a refining moment, a bit like blast furnace with molten metal. The bad stuff can be removed and you're left with something that's refined, purer, sort of the essence of who you are.
The next step is Design. You've got to live a life that's in sync with how you are wired. I now operate in line with my design. Then Vision—something you've got to be off the charts passionate about. Finally, Reality is where you make your vision happen. We found there was this pattern of Refine, Design, Vision, Reality that helps you move from your worst day to a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger: Stage Two added quantitative and qualitative data. We commissioned a study of more than 11,000 people. Warwick, what stood out to you most once we understood that data?
Warwick Fairfax: What was astounding to the researchers was that moving from a crucible to a life of significance did not vary with gender, age, personality, or zip code. It was 100% a product of how we see ourselves at a particular time. In our podcast—more than 240 episodes—we saw guests with every crucible imaginable: financial, physical, loss of loved ones. Despite the diversity, the path back was universally identical. It’s a mindset shift. It’s a choice of how you choose to move on.
Stage Three: The Beyond the Crucible Roadmap
Gary Schneeberger: We’ve combined these insights to create Stage Three: The Beyond the Crucible Roadmap. Here is how we help people turn their worst day into their greatest opportunity:
The Trial: The aftermath of a life-altering crucible moment where we are fundamentally changed.
Processing: Recognizing and letting go of feelings of anger or hurt resulting from the crucible.
Vision: Casting a new post-crucible vision for life through experimentation and exploration.
Reality: Executing an actionable plan to turn that vision into a new everyday reality.
Triumph: Being well on the way to a new, significant, and significant post-crucible life.
Warwick Fairfax: This model is a statistically valid framework. It starts with trial, but you only move to processing if you make a choice that you won't be defined by your worst day. Triumph is not about your bank account; it's measured by the impact you feel like you are having—being a force for good in your community.
The 10 Actionable Truths
Warwick Fairfax: We view these actionable truths as accelerators. Life is tough, and you need help. Take Self-Reflection—it's not one and done. Life happens, and self-reflection can be a part of your daily way of living. What happened? Why did it happen? What can I learn?
Gary Schneeberger: This is the first time we're listing them this way. Here are the 10 Actionable Truths:
Crucibles: Your crucible didn't happen to you, it happened for you.
Self-Reflection: Reveals insights about yourself to help you bounce forward.
Authenticity: Embracing your authentic self, not who others want you to be.
Faith: An immovable anchor for your soul no matter what's happening around you.
Character: Your belief system in action; how you live out your faith.
Vision: A sacred calling that summons you to a mission beyond yourself.
Fellow Travelers: A team of trusted advisors and community are key.
Perseverance: Continuing to move forward; perseverance is hope.
Redemption: Your worst day can be redeemed; it is a catalyst for growth.
Significance: A life lived on purpose dedicated to serving others.
Warwick Fairfax: These truths are vital. Take Authenticity—it includes "vulnerability for a purpose." Being honest with your team about being nervous in a tough market is authentic. If you live these out, they can be life-transforming and vision-transforming.
Conclusion
Gary Schneeberger: We want you to believe these truths, but more than that, we want you to act on them. Subscribe on YouTube and your favorite podcast apps. We'll see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible assessment. This tool reveals where you stand today and the steps to get where you want to be. Visit Beyondthecrucible.com to start charting your course to a life of significance today.
BEST OF 2025: Gregory Vetter Gained Much After Losing His $300 Million Business
Gregory Vetter describes the shock and loss he felt over losing the $300 million dollar salad dressing business he and his brothers built using their mother’s recipe.
They were forced to file for bankruptcy, he says, because of a legal battle with greedy and unscrupulous investors. He may have lost millions of dollars, but not his entrepreneurial spirit — going on to launch new businesses and help other entrepreneurs with a big idea do the same.
You’ll want to pay special attention when he tells us the lesson his crucible taught him about the four things money can’t buy.
—
Don’t forget to subscribe for more leadership and personal growth insights: https://www.youtube.com/@beyondthecrucible
Follow Beyond the Crucible on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beyondthecrucible
Follow Warwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/warwickfairfax/
Follow Beyond the Crucible on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beyondthecrucible
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Gregory Vetter:
It tested my belief system. It tested my faith in humanity, honestly. It made me very, very bitter for a while. It started to harden my heart.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Gregory Vetter, describing how he felt in the immediate aftermath of losing the $300 million salad dressing company he and his brothers built using their mother's recipe. They were forced to file for bankruptcy, he says, because of a legal battle with greedy and unscrupulous investors. He may have lost millions of dollars, but not his entrepreneurial spirit, going on to launch new businesses and help other dreamers with a big idea do the same. You will want to pay special attention when he tells us the lesson his crucible taught him about the four things that money can't buy.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, Greg, it's wonderful to have you here. Greg is Greg Vetter, and just to give folks a little bit of idea of his background, Greg is a trailblazing entrepreneur. He turned a family recipe into Tessemae's. Is that close?
Gregory Vetter:
Yep, close enough.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay. Into the number one organic salad dressing brand in the U.S., and pioneered clean food manufacturing. He's gone on to found Alta Fresh Foods, revolutionizing the salad industry with innovative processes, as well as Quenchers Vodka Drinks and Tushees Portable Toilets, showcasing his diverse entrepreneurial spirit. And he's also launched homegrown brand Accelerated to help others build the next great American brands. He is committed to mentoring young leaders and entrepreneurs, empowering them to dream big and execute with purpose. Where I thought we'd get started is this whole salad dressing became this enormous business, but the way you started it I found absolutely fascinating. You have just this pure go for broke, there is no fear, or if there is fear, I'm plowing right through it kind of spirit. So just talk about where that whole recipe came from and how you got started in that first natural food store. I love the gumption you have instead of not build it and they will come. It's like sell it and then let's build it later, kind of thing.
Gregory Vetter:
That's actually the entire philosophy. Yeah, I was selling insurance and sitting in a cubicle over top of a bodega with our scenery being a graveyard, and I'm not making that up. And I actually ended up being good at cold calling all day. I was kind of very disciplined. I could sit there and just grind through the pain. And so I went to the owner and I said, "Hey, man, I brought in three of the top five largest customers. I want to be a partner." And before I got the word partner out, he was like, "No, you make enough money. You're young. You're never going to be a partner in this. And that's that." And in that moment I realized I was not in control over my destiny, I guess you could say. And I wanted to be.
And so every day at lunch, I would go home in my little townhouse and I'd stand on my head with a journal next to me waiting for an epiphany. And they didn't come. But afterwards I'd walk downstairs, I'd make myself a big salad with protein on it, and my mom would make me this one salad dressing in a two liter bottle. It would last about a month. And I would put dressing on it and I'd go back to work and I'd cold call all day. And so one day I walked downstairs and this two liter bottle of salad dressing's missing. And you do not misplace a two liter bottle of salad dressing. And so I'm looking all over, I'm opening every cabinet, every drawer is open, and then I'm like, "Oh, man, I got to call my wife. I cannot find this." And so I call my wife, I'm like, "Hey, did you take the salad dressing to work?" She goes, "No, I didn't take a two liter bottle of salad dressing to work."
And I'm like, "I cannot find it anywhere." And she's like, "Well, maybe someone came into our house and took it." I'm like, "No one broke into our home and stole the salad dress." And she goes, "Well, I don't know what to tell you, Greg." So she hangs up. So I call some people and I get to a guy that doesn't have a full-time job, and I said, "Hey, man, random question. Have you seen my salad dressing?" Everybody prior to this point had said no and hung up. And he goes, "Yep, woke up this morning, was Jonesing for it, knew the code to your house, hopped on my scooter, came over, took it. Now I'm crushing a salad."
And I sat there in the kitchen of my little townhouse and I thought to myself, what kind of man steals another man's salad dressing? And then I thought, what kind of salad dressing is so good that someone would break into my house and steal it? And so I told him to bring it back. And then I called my wife back and I'm like, "Hey, so you were right. So-and-so broke in and stole the dressing." And so then I sat there for a minute and I'm like, "I'm going to start a salad dressing company." And so I said that as a pressure test to my wife to see her reaction, I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to start a salad dressing company. Dead silence. And she goes, "That's the best idea I've ever heard. I have a weird feeling that it's going to work." And so I go, "Okay."
So I took the only business skill I had, which was cold calling, and I started cold calling grocery stores and I was just going to see if I could get a meeting. And I was just focused on, I'm going to get an educated yes or no. I don't know what it's going to be, but I'm just going to call until I get an educated yes or no. And so for about two weeks, all I got were nos. But being a quote-unquote expert at cold calling, you know when it's an educated yes or it's an educated no. And so everybody just kind of picked up and they're like, "Yeah, we're not interested." And I'm like, "They didn't even ask any questions. I'm going to keep going until I get an educated no." And this one guy goes, "Bring it in today," which was a Friday in February, "and let me try it."
So I call my mom and I go, "Hey, I need you to make the greatest batch of salad dressing ever made." And she's like, "Why?" I go, "I got a meeting at this grocery store." And she goes, "For what?" And I'm like, "I'm going to bring it in there. I'm going to start a salad dressing, I'm going to take your recipe. We're going to go into business together." She goes, "You're not a company. There's no name, there's no bottle. You have nothing." I'm like, "I didn't ask you for any of this. I just need you to make the dressing. I'll take care of the rest." So she makes the dressing, I stop by her house. She goes, what are you going to put it in? And I'm like, "Give me a Tupperware container." So I take some crunchy romaine lettuce, I put it in a little Tupperware container with a red lid, and I marched myself into this grocery store and I ask for this guy and he comes up and he looks like a former professional boxer. He does not look like a guy that's buying organic salad dressing.
And he's like, "Show me your stuff." And I'm like, "Ooh." So I hold this little Tupperware container up. I'm like, "I brought you a salad. It's lunchtime." So he takes this piece of wet lettuce out of this little Tupperware container, licks the dressing off and goes, "That's the greatest salad dressing I've ever had. You need to call the regional office." And I go, "Well, why don't you call the regional office and I'll show up to the meeting." So they ended up giving me 200 pages of food manufacturing paperwork, and they said, "Fill this out and you can be in for the grand opening of this new store in Annapolis, May 5th, 2009."
And so I take the papers home and I look at the first page and it's a different language. I have no idea what they're asking me. So I start Googling, "What is a HACCP plan? What is a HACCP plan for salad dressing?" And so I'm literally just printing these documents off the internet, this is before AI could just do it in two seconds, and I'm sending this grocery store these documents. And so we ended up overcoming a million hurdles to be a food manufacturer. And we get in for the grand opening of this grocery store, and I got an apron that's embroidered, and I got my little table and samples and recipe cards. And the doors open and people are running into this grocery store. I've never seen people so excited for a new grocery store before in my life.
And the next thing I know, the four cases that they ordered were sold. So I go to the director of the East Coast and I go, "Hey man, all that dressing's gone." He goes, "There's more in the back." I'm like, "No, I sold it." And he goes, "You sold four cases of dressing in 30 minutes?" And I'm like, "Yeah." And he goes, "Well, go get more." I'm like, "I got to go make more. You said this was a month." And so I run outside, I call my mom, I'm like, "We got to make more salad dressing!" And she's like, "I'm in Pilates." I'm like, "No one cares about Pilates." And she hung up on me.
So then I called my wife. I'm like, "We sold all four cases. It's unbelievable." And so next day, same thing happened. We ended up making six cases that night. I stayed up till 3:00 o'clock in the morning making salad dressing. And sold the next six cases in 45 minutes. And in that five-day period, we set a national sales record for that grocery store, and we ended up selling 650 bottles of one dressing in one store in five days. And so that was really my pressure test of people like this, I bet I could build this to something bigger. I'm not sure how big, but I'm willing to bet everything on the journey. And so that is when the journey began, which was May 5th, 2009.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it's just so amazing how, I guess it's maybe not resilience yet, but it's courage and gumption. I mean, you were like, "Where are we going to make this?" And you found a couple of different places initially, the back of a barbecue place, and then middle of the night at a bakery. I mean, and eventually you got a warehouse near Baltimore. But it's like friends, your brothers, friends or friends, anybody you could find. I mean, that was just, and even when people said no, some of these folks that had locations, we had to make stuff, it was like, you thought to yourself, it may be no now, but I can get you the yes. And they said yes. I mean, the courage it took in those early days. Well, the whole journey is ... I know it's easy to look back at some of the bad side, which we'll get to, but if you look back and said, "I had a lot of courage, a lot of guts that not everybody has." I mean, are you able to give yourself your fair due of some of the courage and gumption that you had?
Gregory Vetter:
Yeah, I mean, I think I honestly had to brainwash myself, right? Because you have to ignore every social norm that you've been taught up to that point to build something from nothing. Because everybody says no. Nobody wants to be bothered with your problems. No one cares about your problems. And so you're just nonstop trying to find a way to appeal to their humanity so that they will stop what they're doing and take a chance on you. And so that was really the theme in the beginning, which was we almost didn't get our manufacturing license because a shelf was a half inch too low and the guy was going to deny our manufacturing license. And I grabbed him, I'm like, "Listen, man, everything is on the line. I need you to do this for me." And he was just like, "Whoa, dude. I've never seen someone who's this crazy about salad."
Sure. Because my day, I don't care whether or not you pass or fail, but you really care. And so there was a lot of that in the beginning, and that kind of ended up running out. I think maybe we used up all of our miracles for that journey. By the end, everybody was kind of like, "Dude, we've given you all the miracles we can give." And so yeah, it was a lot of breaking social norms and really just burning the ships. I mean, we're either going to win this battle or we're not going home. And that was really the view we took. And I think when you take that view, generally speaking, the universe conspires in your favor.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's almost like, I forget the exact quote, but the Teddy Roosevelt quote that talks about the man in the arena that's willing to try and go for it. And very much that philosophy. And you grew tremendously with nationwide chains and one in California. And there were problems, but you just overcame them. We need to seal these salad dressing bottles. Well, how do we do that? Well, let's use wax from Maker's Mark liquor and stuff. And incredibly, they have a patent on that wax and they said, "Sure. You're not a competitor, obviously. You can use our wax." Which is like ... There's so many ... So talk a bit about before we get to the challenging years, you grew tremendously. It's almost like the biggest challenge you had was how can we keep up with manufacturing, with personnel, with financing? It's almost like you didn't have a problem that nobody wanted it. The problem you had is everybody wanted it. I mean, that growth must've been heady days and just one chain after another, it's like, "Are you kidding me? How many stores is this?" It's like, wow, it must've been quite a trip, if you will.
Gregory Vetter:
It was very wild. And we were also, I think a big part of the issue was we were three years ahead of the organic clean food movement. We really spearheaded that entire movement. We were just banging down doors to get people to bring stuff in. Whereas years later, all you had to say was, "Oh, yeah, it's organic and it's clean," and everybody's bringing it in and in mass truckloads. But in the beginning, nobody believed that organic salad dressing was going to be able to be a thing. And I kept thinking about rap music in the eighties and early nineties where everyone just kept going, "Well, it's just a trend. It's going to go away." And organic foods, you're like, "It tastes good and it's better for you. Why would anybody go back to something that doesn't taste as good and isn't good for you?" And those were the conversations we're having with people. But yeah, I mean, it was a Herculean effort in the beginning to match manufacturing capacity with sales demand. And it was always a tightrope where we were getting these national retailers on board and then we had to figure out how to deliver it with zero time to plan.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's get to maybe some of the more challenging years. It seems like that growth in manufacturing required financing. Just talk about how the financing felt like it was so difficult to, A, find, and then find people that you didn't have a queasy feeling in your stomach.
Gregory Vetter:
Yeah, I mean, I think the interesting part is people are willing to bet on you if they can basically take over everything. And so we were always trying to find this balance of protecting our original shareholders that believed in us with bringing in the right capital to then take the brand to where it could be. And I think because we were so early in the organic clean food movement, when people started finally saying yes, we were just so excited that someone finally saw what we had been screaming from the rooftops for for years. And so it was less about us being selective and it was more us just being grateful that somebody finally kind of believed what we had been saying and saw the data and saw the future and wanted to participate. So we really were not as selective as we should have been. For example, let's use AIs as an example. I'm sure you go in, you've got some situation and a patent and you've got this and that and this and that, and you can look at the top tier people and you have them competing against each other and you put yourself in the best situation possible. We were always being told this isn't going to work. This doesn't scale. There's never been a lifestyle brand for salad dressing. Who cares about salad dressing? And so not until after we would close these massive deals, would we then take the data points back to these people and say, "Well, look, we just got another 2,600 doors. We got another 3,500 doors. We got this and we got that."
And in not being as selective as we should have been, you start letting in people that have ulterior motives to what they originally said. And you fast-forward a couple years and the next thing you know you're paying professional negotiators to come to an agreement because everybody just wanted to take the entire thing. And so that part obviously was very tough to process because there was so much value there for everybody. And all that needed to happen was just everybody come to an agreement on the path forward and let's get it done and everybody rides off into the sunset. And that's not always how it goes, specifically for us. And so a lot of insane lessons learned, enough to write a book about, enough to be giving keynotes and lecturing to business departments across the country on the lessons learned. So a lot of wild stories there for sure.
Warwick Fairfax:
So talk about how things kind of ended up at the end, because it feels like you had these two billionaires and there's a whole host of characters in the book even before that, of just the LA young guns and there's Ryan, somebody, there's all these people with colorful names, but it just seems like at the end, it wasn't about common sense, even wasn't about what was in their best interest, it was about winning to a degree, maybe crushing you, crushing the other guy. It's a lesson in that sometimes people, not only are they not just cutthroat, but they don't always act in their own interests. It just, it's win at all costs, greed at all costs. If we have to pay the lawyers hundreds of thousands a month, who cares? It's all about winning. It's not about money. I mean, that was powerful lessons, I'm sure, right?
Gregory Vetter:
Well, and it went against rational thought, because you're sitting there at the end and you're like, "We can all come to an agreement. We can all do this. Everybody's willing to play ball." And we would spend six weeks ironing out some type of deal where it worked for everybody and the board would get on the phone, they go, "We got it. It's good. I know this is going to suck for you, Greg, but it's not as good for them too, but we're all going to move forward together. And here it is moving forward." And the lawyers would send over the documents and it was nothing that was discussed or negotiated. And so then you really start thinking about, okay, well, what are the motives? To understand a person, you need to understand their motives. And it really just came down to unbelievable greed, almost like an addiction, ego to the point of addiction, but then also the need for complete destruction of their opponent. And that was the part that went against what I thought their motives were, which were kind of greed and ego, because then you layered in the destruction part and you're like, but you're going to get the greed side, that'll be satisfied, your ego component will be satisfied, but destroying me and my family, we're going to part ways and part of us will be destroyed, but it wasn't the complete destruction they were looking for. And that was the part where it gave me a completely different insight into human behavior that I didn't know at the time.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, the fact that their desire to destroy was greater than their desire for greed?
Gregory Vetter:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, the story you tell, there's a lot of stories, but the one in the parking lot when I guess as you put it, [inaudible 00:24:04] has this document, he makes you sign this template, say, "Look, it doesn't really mean a whole lot. We just need something."
Gregory Vetter:
A start.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right. And then later on, so that's not a starting point, that's the finish. So they lied. I mean, obviously that happens a lot. So obviously you're in a position where you don't have a whole lot of choices, the salad dressing market isn't what it is now, and organic, but dealing with people that you can't trust, I mean that felt like that was almost the apex of, "Are you kidding me?" moments in the book. I mean, it's one thing to play hard. I mean, you and your brothers played lacrosse, which is massive in Maryland, certainly in Annapolis. You play hard, you want to win, but it's like you play by a set of rules and you know what they are: play hard but play fair. Really? But here it's like it's all about winning. If you have to lie, cheat, steal, hey, whatever it takes. I mean, that must've been sobering to say the least, those kind of moments.
Gregory Vetter:
Again, it tested my belief system. It tested my faith in humanity, honestly. It made me very, very bitter for a while. It started to harden my heart because I had always tried to do what was right for the entire shareholder base, which included all the employees because we gave them all stock. And so when you're dealing with people that don't care about any of that and they don't care about the repercussions from a karma perspective, you're dealing with a different animal. And again, I thought people had some level of decency, right? Like, okay, I can get the greed side. My ego's fulfilled. I don't need to destroy this dude and his family. I know him. I've invited him to my Christmas parties. But no. Again, it was something I've never experienced before. And leaving that and reflecting on that, that took me a long time to really process because it really just made me question humanity for the most part.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about how you got over that. Because in the book, you start in a very haunting way. Obviously you talk how there was a $300 million business that was valued and sold bankruptcy for 4.5 million, which seemed like a fair amount of money, but relative to 300 million, it's not much. It's a small, small percentage. And you talk about having in your farm in western Maryland, stacking wooden pallets and having a bonfire almost back to the Viking ship thing with the ritual. It's horrendous, it's sad, but we're going to have some kind of ritual to kind of mark this time to even say Tessemae's all-natural would go out like a Viking. You actually say that. "I decide on a funeral pyre fit for a battle-scarred warrior." So how did you come back from being, I mean, it's one thing to be battle-scarred, which obviously you are, I get that and I can certainly relate in many ways, but how did you find a way not to be bitter and angry? You could have been angry at God, who's ever up there, at not just these billionaires, but there were stacks of people after them. There was the investment bank that gave you the B team, I think you wrote, and let's do the financing road show in the summer, which is the worst time to do it because everybody's ... having done one of those myself, I get it. So there's a list of people you could feel like let you down. So how did you deal with the sense of bitterness at both at other people, the world, God, gosh, if we'd been five or 10 years later, we would've killed it. I mean, how do you process all that so it didn't just sit there forever?
Gregory Vetter:
A couple things. I started writing the book. I hired a performance coach. He said something really funny one time. He goes, "Are these stories real?" And I'm like, "Yeah." And he goes, "Listen man, I spend 99% of my time convincing my clients to not write books because they have nothing interesting to say and it's purely an ego play. I think you need to write a book." And I said, "No, I don't want to write a book about the greatest failure of my life and how stupid I was for 15 years." But he planted a seed in my brain and my leadership philosophy kind of boils down to leave things better than when you found them and lead by example. And so at a minimum, I wanted to document the journey for my kids. I have four kids, they range in age right now from a freshman in high school down to a nine-year-old, and I just wanted them to know how hard it was and what I was willing to do to fight for my dream, because I think every parent wants their kids to fight for a dream no matter what the dream is. And so I went to this kind of men's group on Friday mornings, and these guys were talking about forgiving your enemies. And I was really just not on board with that. But then I kept going every Friday and I started thinking about it, and it really helped me to ... there's a difference that these guys were talking about, which is forgiveness, which is in your heart, and reconciliation, which is with another person. So it requires another person to forgive you as well as you forgive them. So I got to the point where I go, "Yeah, you know what? I'm willing to forgive these people in my heart." Because having that much bitterness and that much anger is not going to help anybody or anything moving forward.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's one of the things that we talk about a lot at Beyond the Crucible is that forgiveness is key, because Warwick said it, if he said it once, he said it a hundred times on this show, if you don't forgive, it's like just drinking poison, right? I mean, it's going to affect you more than it affects the other person. They're not really going to care necessarily. They may not even know that you've forgiven them, but that frees you up from the cell, that unforgiveness, from the cell that bitterness can create in you.
Gregory Vetter:
I can forgive somebody in my heart, but it doesn't require the reconciliation with another person because it really comes down to an alignment with me and God. And that took probably a year to get to. If you ever talk to the guys from that group, they joke all the time of me talking about like, yeah, man, I'm cool with all this stuff you guys are talking about except for forgiving your enemies. I am not okay with that. I eventually got there.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, just as you've been talking, even though, as Gary would say, the products, the numbers, the countries are different, I can relate. And our personalities couldn't be more different. I'm not an entrepreneur at all. I could never do what you did. I don't have that kind of gumption in that area. I've got a fair amount of perseverance, but not that kind of gumption. But yeah, I mean, just like you, I wrote my book Crucible Leadership, I guess '22 it came out, took years to do it. Like you, it was incredibly painful because I was writing about some of the toughest times of my life and some of the stupidest mistakes I made. And one of the things that we say a lot on Beyond the Crucible is forgiveness doesn't mean condoning. Forgiving those two billionaires along with a whole host of others doesn't mean that you approve how they do business. You abhor and condemn how they do business, putting words in your mouth, not something that you would model or want your kid's doing. Put it that way.
Gregory Vetter:
Yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
Let me jump in. I've hosted this show with you, Warwick, for 270-something, 280 episodes. This is the first time we've had a guest who has something approximating your story. And I'm just wondering, Greg, I imagine you don't run into a lot of people who have a story like yours and the way it's like yours down to the point that you were 25 and he was 26. I mean, how helpful is that? And I think about that across anybody who has a crucible. How helpful is it just to hear someone who's got your experience someplace? Warwick has talked before about he felt in the aftermath of the failed takeover, he felt like he was a party of one. You must have felt like that a little bit too. Is it helpful to hear somebody else who's been through some of the same beats of a story like yours?
Gregory Vetter:
Yeah, I mean, it's always helpful because I think I've always felt alone and all of the alleged consultants and advisors and experts at every phase and at every stage, I remember I went to this one performance coach in the middle of it, and he's former Army Ranger and PhD and worked with all these pro athletes, and he's so elite. He's not my current performance coach, but I went to him and I tell him the whole story and I have to pay ahead of time to get into his room. And at the end he just goes, "Oh my God. It's like you're fighting three different wars at the same time with three different weapons simultaneously. I wish you nothing but the best." And then that was it. And I'm like, "Any advice, man? Because I feel like I'm drowning." And he's like, "Good luck. Good luck to you. I don't really have any insights on that one at all."
So that is the theme. The theme is everybody talks a big game, but the amount of people that can actually sit there and empathize and provide credible insight and understanding and actually listen, to provide meaningful counsel, it is so rare I cannot begin to describe it to you. And I get all these thank you notes for my book, and it's all these entrepreneurs, they go, "Man, thank you so much for writing this because I felt alone. Because when you go on LinkedIn or you go on YouTube or you go on Instagram and you hear all these business experts, it's pay for my program and these four things will make you a billionaire and these systems will skyrocket your business, and this will do that, and this will do that. And I just feel like I'm an idiot all the time."
And so it is a very kind of rare select group of people that have endured the complete destruction of their belief system and then found a way at the end of it to pick themselves up, move forward, make the best out of it, and then even have the wherewithal to come back and try and help others. Because I can tell you, I was doing an interview with this venture capitalist and she said, "Thank you so much for your honesty because I have people on here all the time that I know have failed, and they will answer my questions and blatantly lie to my face knowing that I know because they don't want to be associated with any of the weak components of their life."
And I just don't really know what that gets you. I don't get it. I don't understand it. It's not how I parent my kids. Because life's tough and nobody bats a thousand. And these stories are important for the simple fact that someone's going to listen to it and they're going to go, "Man, I'm going through something similar. One, I'm not alone. I'm going to do some more research into these guys. Maybe their stories can provide me that one little kernel of hope or insight or advice to allow me to move forward one step the next day." Because it doesn't end. We're dealing with something similar right now with one of our businesses, not investor-related, but employee-related. And Gary, I told you when we were chatting, it was like rock bottom has a basement.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right. And that has a sub-basement, right?
Gregory Vetter:
And you're like, wow, this is as low as it gets. And then the next day you're like, whoa, it's getting lower. I thought I was there. And then the next day, you're a little bit lower and you're like, "Man, okay, well, I thought I already experienced all of this." And it's like, no, you haven't. You've only experienced one component of it.
Warwick Fairfax:
"Hey, we're going to give five minute talk to a bunch of people talking about resilience and what they've learned in business." And I said, "Well, you know my story?" And yeah, sure, and people said, "Warwick, we never knew. I was going through some of the stresses during business school because my dad dying and the expectations that we never knew, I'm so sorry." And there was empathy. I was like, but of course the lies in my head was like, oh, they're going to laugh. The dumbest Harvard MBA graduate in history, Warwick Fairfax, because if you Google me, it's actually there. And Wikipedia. So talk about how you did not let your worst day define you. You found a way to bounce back and help people.
Gregory Vetter:
Well, I think the four things money can't buy: your soul, your health, your time, and your children's love. When all of your transactional friends leave you and when all of your material possessions have no more meaning to you, you're left with the things that really matter. And every time I've ever gone through something horrible, I basically have stripped more and more and more away to get down to this core me. The St. John of the Cross has a book The Dark Night of the Soul, and there's a two-part purification process. And I have gone through it. And what you find is that really actually in the most fundamental sense of reality, there is nothing more than your capacity to be loved by your kids and love them and lead by example, to be in control over your time and your health. But then the soul component is something that that's the one that takes a lot of daily work because a lot creeps in day in and day out where you think about getting back at the people that have destroyed you, or can you still maintain the forgiveness of your enemies, or are you still leading by example? Are you still a person that is in pursuit of living this life that you're proud of? And so the shame component is real, but it's personal.
The thing that I realize is when all of your fears are realized, you understand there's nothing to lose and you actually understand what you're made of. All of my fears were exposed. They were all written in newspaper articles and everybody knows that we lost the business and there was no exit. And so it really, again, in that refinement process of the four things that money can't buy, it made me understand what I was willing to sacrifice and what I wasn't willing to sacrifice in this life for the pursuit of alleged ambition or the grand cosmic plans that God has for me or doesn't have for me. So there is a lot of continued soul-searching on a daily basis to make sure that I'm hearing the voice of God and that I am doing what I'm supposed to be doing, even though sometimes I feel like I'm on hold. "Hey, are you there, man? I need some answers, brother." So, yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
You've learned some powerful lessons that you can be with your kids. So just talk about what that means to you because like you, you probably have your bad days and read an article and, "Oh, yeah, I could have been ... look at what I could have done and what an idiot I was."
Gregory Vetter:
I was talking to somebody and they're like, yeah, I sold my business for this, and I'm like, "I was right there."
Warwick Fairfax:
I have that house.
Gregory Vetter:
"I was right there."
Warwick Fairfax:
I have that house in the Caribbean, man, that huge boat. We just love going in the Mediterranean. It's just such a fun thing with the family and friends.
Gregory Vetter:
Exactly. South of France. No biggie. I'm like, okay. Yeah. But I think I realized once we won Inc. Magazine's Entrepreneur of the Year, I don't know what year that was, it was kind of like in the early days, I thought that was going to be a defining moment for the trajectory of our business and me specifically, and nothing happened from it. Nothing. I think we got more cold calls for copiers and everybody trying to sell something under the sun, but no one was like, "Hey, man, you're awesome and we want you on this board. You took salad dressing and ..." And nothing happened. And we went to the party in New York and it was a soulless event without any positive real connection or energy. It was kind of like a bunch of people walking around trying to figure out who's who and how can they benefit me or not me.
And I think that was the first time where I'm like, I really need to make sure that I'm not getting sucked up in this nonsense. Now, I was not that wise at that point so it's still much more bad decisions came after that. But as I look back on it, that was my first real taste of, yeah, we won the things, we were at the parties. It means nothing. It really means nothing. And the only thing that actually matters is how much my kids want to be around me and love me and tell me their secrets and want my opinion on things and want me to coach their teams and want me to take them to wherever. And I've seen a lot of people sacrifice that, the children's love side of it, justify not being around for this other stuff that doesn't mean anything. It will never mean anything.
Warwick Fairfax:
So just as we begin to close, talk about what you do now, because it must be very fulfilling as you're speaking, talking to young entrepreneurs, giving your hard-earned wisdom. There's that oft-used phrase, pain for a purpose. But I've certainly found when I've spoken, podcasting and other things, when I feel like somehow what I went through can help other people, it doesn't make all the pain go away, but it helps a bit.
Gregory Vetter:
It does.
Warwick Fairfax:
Not that that's necessarily the reason you do it, but talk about how fulfilling it is to use your hard-earned wisdom to help young entrepreneurs and other folks and just talk about what that feels like and what your mission is now, would you say?
Gregory Vetter:
Well, one, it feels great to help people. And it doesn't matter how you're helping them, whether or not you're coaching kids, which I do a lot of that because it brings me unbelievable amounts of joy, or speaking to entrepreneurial kind of incubators, regardless of the age, business departments, talking to them about risk and scale and risking it all and age. Real quick, I had somebody call and they're like, "Hey, I'm planning and I'm really worried about where I'm going to be at 25." And I go, "Hey, bud, you should be really ... like you're 20 now. I would say, where am I going to be at 45 or 50? What does that look like? Not where are you going to be at 25, because that means nothing." But trying to bring that youthful perspective to that group of people, it's super rewarding because, again, I have an unbelievable, relatable story. I'm not a genius. I didn't invent anything. I took my mom's recipe, everybody has a mom with a recipe, and I decided to risk it all, came from no money, credit cards and 401(k)s and crazy loans, and I just was willing to do it.
And so I think a lot of people can relate to that, and it gives me a lot of ... it's a new-found sense of purpose where people need to make things. People need to take risk, people need to be okay with ... I don't want people to fail. I didn't want to fail, but I learned an unbelievable amount about myself in the failure process. I figured out who I was, I figured out what mattered, I figured out what I was capable of, and I figured out what I wanted to do moving forward because I didn't have to keep up a facade to people that didn't really matter. So I just think that giving back is magnificent for me personally. And then what I'm doing now is I have a brand accelerator where we help people launch and scale companies, I do a lot of consulting work that ranges where CEO performance coach type stuff to product consulting to just helping people in turnaround situations, because I've been through a lot of wild stuff. And I really do enjoy that because I give them the insights I needed people to give me that they wouldn't give me. I was searching for answers and everybody's like, you're talking to your lawyers and they're just like, "Yeah, well, it's whatever you want to do." I'm like, "No, I need the answer here. It's not what I want to do. I need to know the right answer." Well, I've never been in this situation before, and you're just like, "Help me, please." So I love that part of it.
And then I also love exposing my kids to it all. I bring them to a lot of my speaking engagements. I bring them to a lot of the events and the book tour stuff. And so anything I can do where I'm bringing them, I bring them. And so that's been really rewarding for them to be able to be a part of it because they're at an age where they can really understand it.
Gary Schneeberger:
This is a good time for me to jump in, Greg, since you've just talked about all the things that you're doing now and the benefits that you're bringing to other people, for you to tell our listeners and viewers how they can find you on the internet and perhaps engage with you.
Gregory Vetter:
Yep. Gregoryvetter.com is my website. And then I'm on social media. I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, I'm on LinkedIn. Just look for the aggressive loud guy with a mustache and that's me. So I have a team that responds to everybody or I respond. So if somebody wants to get to me, they will.
Gary Schneeberger:
Awesome. Warwick, as always, the last question or questions are yours.
Warwick Fairfax:
So really a couple come to mind. One is, there may be somebody today that maybe today is their worst day. And, of course, as you would say, "Never know. Tomorrow could be worse."
Gary Schneeberger:
Rock bottom has a basement, my friend.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. Yeah. So let's say they think today's their worst day. What would a word of hope be? I guess that's one question, and maybe a different question would be, what's the biggest lesson that you've learned throughout your whole painful experience? So there are really two questions. One is, what is your worst day? What's a word of hope? And then the second is the biggest lesson you've learned.
Gregory Vetter:
Worst day for hope is I always ground myself in things that matter. So read something of substance that gives you perspective. That could be the Bible, that could be a biography of great people that have done great things. Read a passage of that for perspective. I did a lot of that. You read about Teddy Roosevelt, Ulysses, S. Grant, Abraham Linc- ... all these people, and you're like, "Man, my salad dressing problems really aren't that difficult." So I did a lot of that. Go on a walk. I do a lot of walking. Do something that brings you actual joy. So watch a sunset, eat dinner with your family and actually be present. Watch a funny movie. If you want to eat ice cream or something, let's not overeat and do that, but do something that brings you actual joy, and then go to bed early because tomorrow is a completely new day and your perspective on how bad yesterday was is going to be totally different.
So I really focus on that type of stuff. Where things get real bad, I'm like, for me, I just go to my kids. I'm like, I'm going to go, I got to coach their team tonight, I got to drive to this, we're going to go out to dinner. It's going to be great. Everything's going to be fine. So there's that piece. And then the one thing that I really learned from all of it is trust your gut and also have unwavering faith in your journey. Because I think so often on our worst day, we think that is the end of the game. And what I realized, lacrosse has four quarters, the kind of destruction of that first business was just the end of the first quarter, and I had three more quarters to go. And so understanding where you are on your journey I think is really important. And then just also, again, going back, unwavering faith in the journey. It will eventually work itself out for you and you just have to have faith in that. And that's really hard. It's easy to say, but it's very hard to do.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last words have been spoken on a subject, and our guest, Greg Vetter, just spoke it. Warwick, we just got off an interview with, from my perspective, the most fascinating guest we've ever had on the show because his story is very similar to yours, and we've not been able to say that in terms of the details of his story, more similar to yours than perhaps any other guest, not perhaps, than any other guest we've had. We talk all the time. Details can differ, emotions can be the same. Here you've got details that are closer than usual and the emotions are certainly the same. So my question to you is, as it always is after an interview, what's the big takeaway that you want listeners and viewers to take from our conversation with Greg Vetter?
Warwick Fairfax:
You know, what's amazing about Greg's story is that he and I, we couldn't be more different. I mean, he grew up in Maryland, in Annapolis, where I actually now live, which is kind of crazy because a lot of the place names, I kind of know what he's talking about, but he didn't grow up with a whole lot of money. He's sort of this entrepreneur person that goes into the local health food store and tries to sell his mom's dressing. He has no manufacturing, no nothing, and it's like, "Hey, take a sample." So he has gumption in that area that I certainly don't have. Mine was sort of this family newspaper business in Australia. His was this organic salad dressing business that he grew and lost. I mean, it was massive. It was like a $300 million business that eventually had to file for bankruptcy. So there's a lot of differences, but yet there are similarities. As you say, sort of the emotions are in a similar, but one of the biggest challenges he had to face was a sense of shame, a failure. I had to face that. I mean, I'm a Harvard MBA, launched my $2.25 billion takeover within months of graduating at age 26. It was just the sense of letting down my father, who'd died earlier in 1987 when I did the takeover, letting down John Fairfax, my great-great-grandfather who founded the business. Yeah, there was that sense of shame. Just the number of things that went wrong, of just advisors in his case, bankers, actually more than bankers, but just people, potential investors that you expect people to have ego and greed, but it was like it about destroying him. That was more important to them than the ego and the greed. It's just the desire to crush one's enemy. Just some perverse satisfaction out of doing that. So I'm not quite sure whether I faced ... I faced certainly people with the greed and ego. I'm not sure about people who loved crushing people just for fun.
But yes, the sense of failure, dealing with people that maybe you wished you had other advisors. In my case, I've often said ignoring the good advisors and listening to the financial advisors that maybe weren't as good. So a lot of the emotions. Just how painful it was for him. He talked about how hard it was to forgive when he was with a group that was, I think, faith-based group, and they talked about the importance of forgiveness, and him saying, "Yeah, no, I can't do that one. What they did to me basically, in not so many words, no." It took him a year and he learned that forgiveness doesn't always mean reconciliation. You're not always going to have people say, "Oh, I'm so sorry I hurt you." People that are disreputable as he dealt with, the odds of them having a sense of self-knowledge that they're going to say, "Yeah, but I'm so sorry, Greg. We were awful to you." It's like one in a trillion or one in a billion. It typically doesn't happen. And you just have to realize most people don't tend to say they're sorry for things like this. So, yeah, I mean, while the businesses were different, the countries were different, the sense of failure and the shame in it and the sense of, gosh, maybe what I'll do now, maybe I won't have a $300 million business again. For me, maybe I won't have the same kind of impact that I could have had in the nation of Australia. And you got to tell yourself, it's not a comparison game. It's like, am I doing what in my view God's calling me to? That's what's important.
He talks about the four things that money can't buy: your soul, your health, your time, and your children's love. He played lacrosse growing up in Annapolis and he coaches his kids in sports and spends time with them. He works on his soul to make sure he doesn't go astray. He's a healthy person. He gives back by helping other young entrepreneurs and just speaks and gives advice. He's leading definitely a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. There's no question. So his lessons are hard-won, but really money and success into themselves are meaningless. Success is not wrong. But if your whole soul and identity is wrapped up in success, it's not really going to make you happy. It's not fulfilling. When you're focused on others and you have some higher purpose, you value your family, that gives far more satisfaction and is far more lasting than just building some empire.
He shared how he won Inc. Magazine's Entrepreneur of the Year Award. He went to this big deal, I think probably in New York, and it just felt empty. It didn't generate him any more business. It's like, so what? I'm sure he was proud of getting it, but in of itself, he didn't seem to lead to some next level of business, still less did it lead to some next level of happiness or joy in of itself. He can be proud of it, but in of itself, you don't want to worship the fact, "Hey, I was the entrepreneur of the year." That's great. But in of itself, does that achievement make you happy or fulfilled? I'm not sure that it does. So yeah, this is a powerful discussion, a lot of common emotions, and a lot of powerful lessons about what really matters in life.
Gary Schneeberger:
So until the next time we're together, please remember this truth. We know your crucible experiences are difficult. Warwick and Greg talked about similar crucible experiences, which were similarly difficult for them. But here's the good news. Your crucibles are not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons from them and apply those lessons moving forward, they can take you to a destination that will be the greatest, most rewarding destination you'll ever find. And that is, too, a life of significance. Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and, crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit Beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
What would you call a movie about a baby orphaned at birth, who the nuns at the convent where he lives feel sorry for because he doesn’t have a permanent home and family? A film about a baby who grows into a man who later gets adopted but looks so different from the others in his town, whose abilities are so different from theirs that he’s the least successful employee at this job? A picture about a man who is talked about as a failure behind his back by those who act in his presence like they care for and respect him?
Maybe you think that movie turns out to be a depressing drama about an unfortunate soul discarded by society who winds up living a self-destructive life. A tragedy about hope denied, a life lived in ever-crumbling shambles. Maybe even a character study of a protagonist who winds up having no character and, with nowhere else to turn, leans into a life of narcissism and crime.
Well, if those are the conclusions you’ve come to, you’re a cotton-headed ninny-muggins.
That’s because the movie whose opening beats were just described (and from which that ninny-muggins line came) is Elf, the holiday comedy classic released in 2003. But the story of Buddy the elf is not just a funny, heartwarming Yuletide charmer. It’s also a master class in what it takes to overcome the trials and traumas of life we call crucible experiences. So, here are three lessons from Elf to help us move beyond our tragedies and failures and cast a unique vision for a life of significance, a life lived on purpose, dedicated to serving others.
Your gifts and talents don’t have to match everybody else’s or anybody else’s (and probably shouldn’t) for you to discover your vision.
Buddy grows up to work as an elf at Santa’s workshop after being adopted by Papa Elf, one of the most respected of Santa’s inner circle. Buddy is given the opportunity to master the most desirable job for an elf, being a toymaker at the North Pole, referred to as “The Show” and “The Big Dance” by elves, a far superior vocation than the other two available– making shoes at night while the old cobbler sleeps and baking cookies in a tree. But because he’s a human, he only possesses two of the three skills that make elves great toy craftsmen – natural cheer and an active mind. He does not, alas, have nimble fingers.
So, when he can’t keep up with his colleagues making Etch-a-Sketches and gets reassigned to testing the quality of jack-in-the-boxes, he overhears two of his bosses deriding him for not realizing he’s a human, not an elf. Gobsmacked, he talks to Papa Elf, who tells him he was indeed put up for adoption by his human biological father, Walter Hobbs. Papa Elf encourages Buddy to go meet Walter in New York City, describing it as “a golden opportunity to find out who you really are.” Buddy then sets out on a journey to meet his father and perhaps discover what his gifts and talents may truly be.
In New York, Buddy’s plucky good nature comes immediately under attack. His dad rejects him as someone suffering from a mental disorder and has him forcibly removed from his office, where he works for a children’s book publisher. His younger half brother, Michael, thinks he’s weird. The boss of the Christmas department at Gimbels department store thinks he is a spacey employee who’s loafing when he’s really just a huge fan of Christmas and Santa who’s hanging around to help spruce up the place.
But Buddy lets all the ridicule, all the disapproval, roll right off him like his favorite food, syrup, rolls down his throat. For every insult hurled at him by others, every side-eyed glance questioning his behavior, Buddy doesn’t just stay joyous – he doubles down on that joy. It shows the most effective way to take the criticism of others when they think we’re off or odd when we’rebeing our true selves: stay happy with who we are, who we were both created and nurtured to be, whether others share that happiness or not. We’re the only ones, Buddy’s life proves, who are in charge of our personal disposition.
Serving others helps them overcome their crucibles … and helps you overcome yours, too.
Buddy begins to “fit in” better as his new friends and relatives get to know him better. Key to them getting to know him better is the help he offers them to get beyond their own crucibles. Consider Jovie, whose work at Gimbels requires her to wear an elf costume similar to the one Buddy has always sported, prompting him to compliment her for being a fellow traveler who “appreciates elf culture.” She begins to warm to him after he encourages her to not just sing in the shower – but to sing for others. “You have the most beautiful singing voice in the whole wide world,” he tells her, and challenges her with the North Pole truth that “The best way to spread Christmas cheer is singing loud for all to hear.”
He also rescues Michael from bullies who attack the two of them with snowballs while they’re walking home. Buddy’s prolific creation of snowy ammo and his sniper’s accuracy in hitting his human targets send the mean boys scurrying. Their shared victory makes the brothers fast friends. Michael even notices Buddy staring at Jovie at Gimbels and encourages his brother to ask her out on a date. He does, explaining to her that “I think you’re beautiful, and I feel really warm when I am around you and my tongue swells up.” Jovie is charmed by the comment she would have thought weird a few days earlier and says “yes.”
What Buddy does by helping Jovie and Michael helps him, too. That’s what happens when we help others along their journey to move beyond their crucibles. We get back as much relief and breakthrough as we give.
Perseverance is the jet fuel that propels you to a life of significance … even if that perseverance wavers and wanes at times.
When Walter gets hit hard by a crucible – his job is in jeopardy because of declining book sales – Buddy inadvertently makes it worse by insulting and then getting in a fistfight with a little person ghostwriter brought in to right the ship, because he assumes that the little person is an elf. Walter furiously tells Buddy to get out of his life – and Buddy dejectedly does just that. He sets out to walk back to the North Pole.
The outburst from his dad emotionally floors him – he could take his dad not saying he loved him, even after Buddy said he loved his father multiple times. But his perseverance is short-circuited when he feels angry antipathy, not just awkward indifference, from the man who gave him life.
But Buddy rediscovers that perseverance because his true purpose is needed again. It is needed by Santa, who’s piloting his sleigh – primarily powered by Christmas spirit – on his Christmas Eve run as he passes through New York. The sleigh is having a hard time staying in the air – Santa’s lost the booster rocket Papa Elf invented decades ago, and there’s a pronounced paucity of Christmas spirit in the atmosphere.
It’s up to Buddy to find the rocket (which he does) and help elevate the Christmas spirit all across the globe. Jovie and Walter are instrumental to the latter – she by breaking into “Santa Claus is Comin’ To Town” for the crowd gathered around the TV cameras covering the crisis; Walter by apologizing to Buddy and telling him he does indeed love him. Buddy’s dad helps with the propulsion of Santa’s sleigh by singing along with Jovie and the crowd witnessing the Christmas miracle.
That miracle would not have been possible had Buddy done what we caution those who have been through crucibles to never do: slip into bed and pull the covers over their heads. The Christmas crucible the world faces in Elf is overcome by Buddy refusing to let his perseverance get completely away from him.
And if anyone tries to tell you differently, they sit on a throne of lies.
Reflection
1. Have you ever found yourself discouraged that your gifts and talents aren’t like others’? What can you do to appreciate the uniqueness of who you are?
2. Think of a situation when helping someone through their crucible helped you through yours. Why do you think that happened?
3. When your perseverance starts to falter, what do you do to re-establish it?
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
BEST OF 2025: Big Screen, Big Crucibles IV: Les Miserables
You’ve heard us talk a lot over the years at Beyond the Crucible about the power of forgiveness — and that’s one of the core themes of our discussion this week of LES MISERABLES, the fourth film in our summer series BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES.
Everyone in the movie experiences a crucible, but those who receive and then extend mercy and forgiveness to others are the ones who find lives of significance. Those too rigid to see the best in others, or in themselves — like the prison guard and policeman Javert — wind up — as one of the American translations of the film’s title puts it — The Miserable Ones.
Dive deeper into your personal narratives with our BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES guided journal, meticulously crafted to enhance your experience with our podcast series exploring cinema’s most transformative crucible stories. This journal serves as a dedicated space for introspection, inviting you to connect the profound journeys of on-screen characters with the pivotal moments that have shaped your own life.
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Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
That gift would lead Valjean to being a man of grace and mercy. Grace and mercy was shown to him, and he indeed showed that to others. He looks after Fantine's daughter, Cosette, after Fantine dies; he shows mercy and forgiveness to Javert, a man who would never show any mercy and forgiveness to Valjean or anybody.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've heard us talk a lot over the years of Beyond the Crucible about the power of forgiveness, and that's one of the core themes of our discussion this week of Les Miserables: the fourth film in our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles. Everyone in the movie experiences a crucible, but those who receive and then extend mercy and forgiveness to others are the ones who find lives of significance.
Those too rigid to see the best in others or in themselves, like the Prison Guard and policeman, Javert, wind up as one of the American translations, of the film's title puts it, The Miserable Ones. Welcome, friends, to another episode of Beyond the Crucible. You are in the midst of our, we are in the midst of our special summer series, Big Screen, big Crucibles, where we examine films and the crucible experiences in films that characters go through to help you navigate your own crucibles.
We're doing this again. You may remember, if you think back, this is the third time that we've done a summer series on movies, and so for eight weeks this summer, we're going to do it again. This is week four, so we're halfway through with this episode. We're taking a look at films with a wide variety of crucibles: insightful lessons they can teach us about how not only to bounce back from those crucibles, but on casting a vision for charting a course to move beyond those crucibles.
Our film this week is, and I ask you forgive, I beg your forgiveness before I say it, because Warwick has a very cool accent, I have a Midwestern accent, so when I say our movie, it's not going to sound nearly as cool coming out of our mouth. Stay tuned, Warwick will make it sound great, but our film this week, in all seriousness, is Les Miserables. The movie came out in 2012, and here's the synopsis of the film.
In 19th century France, Jean Valjean, who, for decades, has been hunted by the ruthless policeman, Javert, after breaking parole, agrees to care for a traumatized factory worker's daughter. The decision changes their lives forever. That sounds pretty interesting, doesn't it? It is. Stay tuned. Warwick, first question, as always on the summer series to you is, as I said, this is the third time we're back at the theater.
We're looking at movies again, why? What is it about film that is so revelatory about our crucible experiences and what are you hoping that listeners and viewers get from this series in our discussion here?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary. We both love movies, and we've enjoyed looking at movies from a Beyond the Crucible perspective. Movies typically portray a protagonist who is facing significant challenges which they seek to overcome. We've covered movie heroes, action heroes, sports heroes, and we've also looked at last summer, at the American Film Institute's top 100 movies.
This year, we thought we'd look at movies that were some of the best ones that showed people overcoming often unimaginable crucibles, obstacles you would think that there's no way back from. Not only did they get beyond their crucible, they also led a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. The movies we're going to be doing this summer and looking at are truly great movies with incredible lessons for us all.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, before we get started, it's important for you to know a couple of things before we dive into the discussion. First, interestingly, this is the only movie we're discussing in our series of eight that is not based on a true story. It's based on a successful stage musical that was itself based on the 1862 French novel, Les Miserables, by Victor Hugo. Now, having said that, it depicts real life events, like the French Revolution, but the individuals who are in the film, they are fictional.
It's just kind of interesting, that out of eight movies, without even knowing it, we picked seven based on a true story. This one is based on true events in history, but it is fictional. That's interesting. It's also good to note, for those listening in watching who don't speak French, like me, that over the years, the title for American audiences has been tweaked a bit.
Les Miserables has been presented to American audiences sometimes as the Miserables, sometimes as the wretched, sometimes as The Miserable Ones, The Poor Ones, The Wretched Poor, the Victims, and The Dispossessed. That can sound depressing. Let me tell you, please, in all seriousness, let me tell you this, as this discussion goes on, as you hear more about the movie, as you watch the movie, if this encourages you to watch the movie, it ends on a very high note, and there are true moments of joy and elation in this film.
That's my disclaimer. We get our first glimpse work of the misery and wretchedness, the crucibles, in our terms, of the central character in the opening scene. It's 1815, the onscreen graphic tells us, 26 years after the French Revolution. We see scores, maybe hundreds of emaciated men, doing hard labor in a downpour. The one the camera focuses on most intently is the chief protagonist of the film, who we will come to know as Jean Valjean. He's spent 19 years in prison, five for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his sister's sick child, and 14 for trying to escape.
Through song, important to note, all but a few lines of the entire narrative are sung, not spoken, makes it a very interesting movie, we see him taunted by a prison guard named Javert. Warwick, this scene, this first scene lays out the devastation of the crucible that Jean Valjean has been through, and he will continue to go through if Javert has his way. We talk a lot at Beyond the Crucible about the power of hope and forgiveness, but that's not what we see when we meet these two central characters, is it?
Warwick Fairfax:
This is certainly a low point in Jean Valjean's life. He has been in prison for 19 years, and for what? Stealing a loaf of bread to help his sister's sick child who was close to death? That sure seems like maybe you deserve some punishment, maybe some rap on the knuckles, but 19 years? I guess it was five years, and then plus another 14 for trying to escape. It's just...
Gary Schneeberger:
The punishment does not fit the crime here, for sure.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, absolutely. We see these lines of men with these long ropes, try to pull this massive ship into dock. It just seems almost impossible. We learn in this early scene, that he gets paroled, Valjean gets paroled by Javert, who will be his nemesis. In theory, that means he's free, but not really. Yes, he's free, but the papers that he carries with him, they basically say that he is a dangerous man, and he'll have to report regularly or he'll be arrested immediately.
Javert says that these papers are a badge of shame that he will wear until he dies. Doesn't really feel like freedom. Freedom kind of, but maybe it feels like purgatory, but doesn't really feel like he's fully escaped. As I said, this is really a badge of shame that he'll wear the rest of his life. It seems that in these early scenes, we get a bit of a picture of Javert, and it sure would seem like Javert does not believe in forgiveness or in redemption.
Javert's attitude throughout the movie is once a criminal, always a criminal. Redemption is not possible. You've committed a crime, and that'll follow you the rest of your life. That's the code that Javert goes by.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. His efforts to break Jean Valjean's spirit extend the fact that he doesn't call him Jean Valjean. He calls him by his number, 24601, throughout the movie, as you'll hear, these two, their paths crossed throughout the movie, but he always refers to them as 24601. You're just truly just a number. It also struck me, Warwick, that Javert thinks crucibles are a life sentence.
Imagine how for us, how tragic that would be, if all the guests we had on thought that way. If you thought that way after your crucible, if I thought that way after mine. It's definitely not the truth that crucibles are a life sentence, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's so true, Gary. If we were talking to Javert, he would say, "Your worst day does define you. Your worst day will be with you for the rest of your life. Certainly, if you've committed a crime and made a mistake, there is no redemption. It will haunt you the rest of your life. You make this kind of a criminal mistake, you're no longer human, you're just a number. You're subhuman, you're not worthy of redemption."
"You should be in prison, or hide away somewhere where decent people of society don't see you. You've made a mistake, and you'll forever pay for that mistake. Redemption doesn't exist. You are definitely defined by your worst day. It's sort of etched on your soul. There is no hope, there is no forgiveness, there's no grace, no mercy, no redemption." That is Javert's code.
Gary Schneeberger:
In his own way as he gets his freedom, Valjean sort of feels the same way initially, not about himself per se, but he definitely is full of hate and anger. He's carrying his crucible with him outside of the crucible experience of being in prison. He muses about what will life have for me, and what will this new life have for me?
It seems like Valjean has trouble with forgiveness himself at this juncture, and he finds out very quickly, so do all the people he seeks a second chance from, doesn't he?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. At this point, Valjean is on parole. Yes, he has to check in regularly with his, I guess, parole officer, but it seems like he has freedom. These papers that say that he's a dangerous criminal, the badge of shame, wherever he goes, whether it's to try to get a job, or to find a room to rent, a place to sleep, nobody will let him in. He can't get work. He has no roof over his head. It really is, these papers really are a badge of shame.
He truly is a miserable, wretched person at this point, and he is no reason for hope that life will get any better, and no reason not to be angry and bitter. It's very clear that he sings, as you mentioned, that's the way the characters speak in this movie, he says that he'll never forget the years he has lost, and he will not forgive them for what they have done.
He, at this point is, "I will not forgive. I will not forget, I'm angry and bitter. What happened to me was absolutely unfair and wrong, and I'm never going to get over it." That's his attitude at this point of the movie.
Gary Schneeberger:
Then something truly miraculous happens to him. He visits, he drops by one of the people he stops by to see, looking for shelter, is the Bishop of Dean. This is the kind of man Warwick, whose radical grace changes the trajectory, of Jean Valjean's life, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Gary, this is profoundly true. The bishop asked Valjean to come into the church and give him a bed, and some food, and wine. Here is the beginnings of drops of grace. The first person that Valjean comes across, he says, "Come in, come into the church. I'll give you something to eat, a place to sleep." He tells Valjean this bishop does, "to rest from pain and wrong." The bishop is so kind to him.
Valjean is so full of anger and bitterness that it seems like at this point, it's impossible for him to receive any grace and kindness from the bishop. So much so, that what is Valjean's response to this kindness and grace that he's getting? He ends up stealing the silver from the church. Well, he gets caught, and he is brought back to the bishop and Valjean says, "Well, yeah, the bishop gave me the silver." I guess he's got to try something.
What's amazing is the bishop says, "That's true," which it wasn't, but obviously, he says that's true. The bishop says, "In fact, Valjean left the best of the silver behind." Not only does he forgive him for stealing the silver that he has, he gives him more silver, the stuff that he hasn't stolen yet. The bishop says there is a higher plan, and that Valjean must use this silver to become an honest man.
I don't know, the Bishop may see something in Jean Valjean. Maybe he sees some goodness that can be redeemed. I don't know what possesses the bishop to do what is, even for a minister, is just almost unthinkable, to not only no consequences. He could have said, "Okay, Greg, give me back the silver and be gone." He doesn't do that. That would be grace enough. Grace upon grace is you can have the silver. Use it to get yourself lots of money. That's more than grace. That's just astounding.
Valjean is overwhelmed by the bishop's kindness and grace. He says that God has raised him out of darkness. The minister has saved his soul for God. He says he's done with being a thief. He asks if there is another way then hate. He wonders why he allowed the bishop to touch his soul. What this bishop did for him, it absolutely touched and transformed his soul. He says one word from the bishop, and he would be back in prison. He wonders if there's another way to go.
In essence, he says that his past is nothing now, and another story must begin. Valjean has said, in essence, I'm going to turn the page. I'm going to become a different man. This whole episode, where the bishop shows the profound transformation that radical grace and kindness can have, this one episode, it is the turning point in Jean Valjean's life, and it transforms him from somebody full of hate and bitterness, to a person that can be redeemed, and be full of love and grace and mercy.
This one act of radical grace is, it's unbelievable in the act, but it's unbelievable, the transformation that it has for Jean Valjean.
Gary Schneeberger:
After this moment, this very meaningful and moving moment, Les Miserables then jumps eight years to 1823. Valjean has made good on his promise to serve God by helping others. He's a respected factory owner and mayor of Montroy. He is startled, though, when Javert arrives as his new chief of police. Very ironic, right? Now, Javert works for Valjean. That's an interesting deal right there.
Witnessing Valjean rescue a worker trapped under a cart makes Javert suspect Valjean's true identity, but he's not sure yet. Meanwhile, one of Valjean's workers, Fantine, is fired by the foreman of his factory when she is revealed to have an illegitimate daughter, Cosette. She has been mocked and chided by her female coworkers, Fantine has. She's been sexually harassed by the foreman. She is reduced on the streets to selling her teeth, selling her hair, and selling herself.
It's at this point that she sings the most famous song in the soundtrack of Les Miserables, I Dreamed A Dream. Let's take a look and listen to that song right now.
Fantine:
There was a time when men were kind,
And their voices were soft,
And their words inviting.
There was a time when love was blind,
And the world was a song,
And the song was exciting.
There was a time when it all went wrong...
I dreamed a dream in time gone by,
When hope was high, and life worth living.
I dreamed that love would never die,
I dreamed that God would be forgiving.
Then I was young and unafraid,
And dreams were made, and used, and wasted.
There was no ransom to be paid,
No song unsung, no wine untasted.
But the tigers come at night, with their voices soft as thunder, as they tear your home apart, as they turn you dream to shame.
[inaudible 00:20:53] by my side. He filled my days with endless wonder. He took my childhood and destroyed.
He was gone when autumn came.
Still, I dream, he'll come to me, that we live the years together. There are dreams that cannot be, and there are storms we cannot weather.
I had a dream. My life would be so different from all this hell I'm living, so different from what it seemed.
Oh, life has killed the dream.
I dream.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, I worked on publicity for this film when I was living in Hollywood and doing PR in the film industry, so I know the movie well. When I saw and heard Anne Hathaway in this scene, just as an example, it was during a screening, was somewhere, and I said to a studio executive, "Bad news for anybody else up for a best supporting actress Oscar this year," because she was just so good in that scene. It just grabbed people so, so much.
Watching the film for the first time from a Beyond the Crucible context in particular has brought it to me in a fresh light, even though I've known that song in this movie for years. It's really a song about the bottom of the pit, as we talk about, which is caused by the pain of crucibles. We say it all the time. You've reached the bottom of the pit. This is where Fantine's at singing this song, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Fantine is at the lowest ebb of her life. Fantine's song is so incredibly sad. She had dreams of a happier life, and they've been destroyed. That life that she lives now is so different than what she had hoped for. She believed she is literally living in hell. To have dreams that have been destroyed and be in a place of shame, and agony, and pain is about as deep a pit as a person could be in.
Not only is she in agony, but as bad as agony is, just to be at a point of shame where she's shunned by everybody, and she's forced to be reduced to a prostitute, she has no respect for herself. She's in agony. She literally feels like she is in a living hell. It's just an incredibly sad scene, and just a haunting song that she sings. It's just devastatingly sad, that Fantine finds herself.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, the last line, right? "Life has killed the dream I dreamed," right? That is truly the bottom of the pit. Unfortunately for her, the bottom of the pit is going to get a little bit deeper, because Javert arrests her when she attacks an abusive customer. Valjean recognizes her and takes her to the hospital, much to Javert's suspicion and anger.
Learning that a man has been wrongly identified as him, Valjean reveals his identity to the court, and this is a decision he wrestles with quite a bit to admit who he is will save the other man, but will put him back on the run, at least in prison under Javert or people like him at worst. Valjean ultimately turns himself in. It's the high character move for him to do. The one that doesn't just focus on helping himself, why is such honesty? Honesty that might cause us pain, so critical to Valjean, continuing to live his life of significance?
Warwick Fairfax:
Valjean is first torn. Part of him is relieved that they have caught someone they think is him, because then finally, Javert might stop looking for him. As he sings, because as we know, everything is right with his song, he sings this. If he says something in court, he'll be condemned. If he does not speak up, he'll be, in his words, damned, so condemned versus damned. That's a pretty tough choice.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. That is not a good decision to have to make.
Warwick Fairfax:
He wonders if he can condemn this innocent man and he sings, "Who am I? My soul belongs to God. Who am I? I'm Jean Valjean. Now, I wonder the man who was before he found that bishop, so full of anger and bitterness, I wonder if that man has said, 'Look, life is not fair?' I feel sorry for this guy, but I deserve to break. God or the universe who is up there, I deserve to be free, and this is a gift from God. Look, I can't help the whole world. He'll have to figure it out himself."
We don't know, but this Jean Valjean, the after that bishop showed him so much kindness and grace. He is a different man. By saying, "My soul belongs to God," it's very clear that he will do the right thing. This man is innocent. I am Valjean. The lesson here is that when you're beginning to turn to a different path, lying can erode your soul. Honesty is the path of new life and freedom. If he had started lying, he may have been free in the physical world, but in his soul, the change would've started coming back on him.
His conscience would've bothered him. He would've been in prison if he'd done the wrong thing and hadn't told the truth. It really shows that he is on a different path, and it's really something that we should all listen to and take a lesson from, that doing the wrong thing: lying, cheating, stealing, betraying, it puts your own heart and soul in prison. It's not the way out. Never is.
Gary Schneeberger:
No. Ironically, though ,the court doesn't believe him when he says that he's a Jean Valjean. The court doesn't believe him. Regardless, he's spoken the truth and it's a sign that his character has indeed changed, as you said. He must then head out on the run again, but only after doing two things. The first is he returns to the dying Fantine, promising to care for her daughter, Cosette. Talk about that scene, because it's a very touching, very sad, but very touching one as well.
Warwick Fairfax:
It surely is. Valjean consoles the dying Fantine. She sings, the light is fading, and Valjean says that she should be at peace, peace evermore. He'll protect her daughter Cosette. He tells her that her daughter will want for nothing. Fantine says, "He came from God in heaven." Valjean actually feels guilty for the situation Fantine finds itself in, because as we've mentioned, he was the owner of the factory where Fantine worked in. He feels responsible in some way for Fantine being fired by the foreman that was sexually harassing her.
I don't know that he was fully aware of what going on, but regardless, it was his factory and his mind, this new mind, this new heart, is that it's his responsibility. In a sense, by taking care of Cosette, he feels he's trying to right a wrong that he feels responsible for, for allowing what happened to Fantine to happen. This is really another indication of a remarkable change that is happening in the character and soul of Jean Valjean.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. One of the things that we talk about a lot here at Beyond the Curseable is the idea of doing soul work. We saw it earlier in the film, when he was singing, "What should I do? What do I do? Who am I? Who am I?" It's safe to say that Jean Valjean did some soul work in this film, didn't he?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. That's a great point, Gary. He is taking positions that many people wouldn't. They might feel sorry for Fantine, but it's like, "Look, I can't be everywhere at all times. I'm not responsible for what the foreman did. Okay, maybe I'll fire him, discipline him, do something, but Fantine made her choices, and life's tough, and it's not my responsibility to sort out everybody's life. There's a lot of poor wretched souls in this world, and why am I responsible for fixing everybody's life?" That's what the old Valjean would've said.
The new one says, "No, it's my responsibility, and I'm going to take, not just help out Cosette, but take care of her for his whole life, and that she should want for nothing." He could have put her up in an orphanage somewhere, or maybe even a nice one, paid some money. Maybe she should have some decent living. She might be poor, but at least somewhat well-treated somewhere, maybe. Although orphanages back then are reminded of the movie Oliver, they were not too good back in the 19th century.
I don't know if there were any good orphanages back then, but regardless, he could have done something but not what he did, which is basically take Cosette in as his own daughter, if you will, so that she would want for nothing. That's remarkable grace. It's almost like he's learned this remarkable grace from the bishop. That's not normal grace. That's not normal philanthropy. It's just remarkable.
Gary Schneeberger:
No, he's definitely a man who, in our modern vernacular, is not afraid of getting his hands dirty when it comes to helping others, living that life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. He's truly walking that out in all that he does. His crucible remains from Javert, because he and Javert have a confrontation. The inspector tells him this, "Men like you can never change." There he is. He's changed. We've seen him change. He knows he's changed, and yet here's his voice, whispering in his ear, not whispering, but sort of barking at his, barking in his face.
"Men like you can never change." We learned a little bit though in this scene, Warwick, about Javert's own crucible life, and how it informs the harshness he carries, don't we? We see, I don't know if it causes us to feel sympathy for him or not, but we understand a little bit of where his harshness comes from, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, indeed. Valjean at this point is committed to fulfilling his promise to the dying Fantine to look after her daughter, Cosette. Then when he sees Javert and Javert confronts him, he tells Javert that this dead woman, Fantine, left a child, and he needs three days to make arrangements for the child. He's not saying "I'm going to run away forever, I just need some time to get things sorted out."
Javert says, "A man like you will never change." Javert will not listen and seems to have no compassion whatsoever. Javert says that he, Javert, was born in prison and is from the gutter, but he has learned very different lessons, and the lessons he is learned is basically one of a life of harshness with no possibility of grace and redemption.
For Javert, there are only laws in order that must be kept, no redemption, no grace, only laws and regulations, no way back, no redemption, almost like eternal damnation. That is the lessons that Javert seemed to learn from his very harsh upbringing.
Gary Schneeberger:
Valjean then visits the dishonest innkeepers, and Warwick, I apologize in advance as someone who speaks French, I'm going to get this wrong, but I'm going to try, the [foreign language 00:34:32]? Close?
Warwick Fairfax:
I think that's very good.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right. The dishonest innkeepers, we'll just call him the dishonest innkeepers from this point on, whose bit of the plot is mostly comic relief, and takes Cosette to protect her as his own. Warwick, he realizes, Valjean does, that love, the kind he feels from Cosette, has given him his true life's purpose. We talk about that a lot here at Beyond the Crucible. That's a moving realization, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. When Valjean first sees Cosette, he says he made a promise to Fantine, her mother. He says he was blind to someone in need, Fantine. In other words, he didn't realize what was going on in the factory. He feels responsible, but he says to Cosette that her suffering is over. Later, he sings that he's not alone now, and that something has begun. He sings, the world seems a different place full of grace and full of light. So much hope is held inside. "How was I to know that happiness can come so fast," he says, "Never more alone or apart."
Cosette has won his heart and brought the gift of life to him. He says, "I suddenly see what I could not see." This is part of the redemptive arc of Valjean's life. His life has purpose and meaning now. He wants to, in some ways, redeem Fantine's tragic life by caring for his daughter. Before, he had no purpose, no life. Now, he has purpose, life, and hope by redeeming Fantine's legacy, and by giving her daughter, Cosette, a life she could not have had otherwise, a life of hope and promise.
Valjean has, as part of his redemptive arc, he has purpose, and life, and hope. Joy is beginning to come into his life. There was no joy in that opening scene in the movie, where he and the other men were pulling that long rope lines of pulling that heavy ship into the dark. There was no hope. There was only anger, bitterness. Now, we see hope and love and joy. It is truly remarkable what we see in Jean Valjean.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, that he leans into his character. We have another series going on on the actionable truths of the brand, and character is one of them. The character, he acts on that. He acts on that. He acts on that. Then here comes the joy. That's vintage Beyond the Crucible. Character, if you lean into your character, you can pursue that joyous life of significance. This movie could have been written by us, maybe.
Warwick Fairfax:
Very well said.
Gary Schneeberger:
Valjean and Cosette find safe in a convent, and avoid Javert who's still chasing them. The convent's groundskeeper is the man, if you remember, that Valjean saved from the wood that had fallen on him earlier. Javert vows to keep his pursuit of Valjean. He sings, "Those who falter and those who fall must pay the price." That's Javert's worldview.
That's a hard world, isn't it, Warwick, for anyone who's been through a crucible to live in? Javert represents everything that's hard about turning trial into triumph, doesn't he?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, as Valjean flees with Cosette, Javert is in pursuit. We learned something about Javert's theology and belief system. He sings about a fugitive, fallen from God and fallen from grace. It's as if when you've fallen from God and fallen from grace, in Javert's mind, there is no way back. Grace is lost forever. Javert will never yield until they come face to face.
He sings, "Mine is the way of the Lord. Those who follow the path of righteousness." He talks about it as if when people fall as Lucifer fell, they will get the flame and the sword. He says, "Those who fall must pay the price." He sings, "Lord, let me find him safely behind bars. I will never rest until then. This I swear by the stars," meaning he has his own theology and belief system all worked out.
He definitely has a belief in God and the Lord, but a very different belief system than Valjean, or certainly the bishop. Javert has this harsh theology, one of judgment and rules, where there is no grace, none whatsoever. He is committed to his path and his way of looking at the world and God, and he will never relent. It is hard to move beyond your crucible when you're being pursued by men like Javert, who believes there is no possibility of redemption or mercy.
As we said before, Javert's belief system is you were defined by your worst day, certainly, when you committed a crime. There is no way back. There is no life of significance. You're not even human. Subhuman people that are criminals, there's no redemption, there's no life or significance. There's only eternity of pain and suffering. That's what you deserve when you've committed a crime. When you're at the bottom of the pit, the pit is never ending, and there's no way out.
There's no light at the end of the tunnel, only eternal darkness, and that is as it should be. That's what you deserve. That is the belief system, this horrific and horrendous belief system that Javert has.
Gary Schneeberger:
To flip it on its edge, our series on the actionable truths, right? All that Javert is about is actionable falsehoods. He's acting on these falsehoods, that there's no grace, there's no redemption. You can't get better. If you've done this, once a thief, always a thief. He's constantly acting on those things. He's not just saying them, he's acting on them. That really makes life challenging, to say the least, for Jean Valjean. Well, as Les Miserables want to do what [inaudible 00:41:27] jumps ahead again after this.
The movie jumps ahead nine years in the next point, and Valjean has become a philanthropist to the poor in Paris. A new French Revolution is brewing. General Lamarque, the only government official sympathetic to the poor, dies. The revolutionist group, friends of the ABC, plot against the monarchy. Marius Pontmercy, how's that? Was that good? Pontmercy?
Warwick Fairfax:
That was really good.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, thank you. All right, I'm going to live on that for another two weeks, folks. Marius, we're going to call him from now on. Marius, a member of the Friends falls in love with Cosette at first sight, and asks his best friend, Eponine, the wicked innkeeper's daughter, to find her. He and Cosette meet and confess their love.
Eponine, herself in love with Marius, is heartbroken. In a movie full of crucibles, Warwick, this is a more minor crucible that we don't see a lot of, but this is definitely a crucible for this young woman who's known many of them, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, so absolutely. We see Marius, who is a student revolutionary, but he's from a wealthy background as we see in one scene, where his grandfather tries to stop him from getting involved in the revolution. Marius sees Cosette, and he's instantly drawn to her, as she is to him. It is almost cruel when Marius, not quite understanding what's going on, he asked Eponine to find Cosette. Eponine tells Marius that she knows Cosette, they grew up together.
What's so sad is while Marius just considers Eponine a friend, Eponine dearly loves Marius. She considers herself his girlfriend, even though he doesn't quite see it the same way. When Eponine agrees to find Cosette, it is an act of both great tragedy and incredible love for Marius. She realizes that Marius is just besotted with Cosette, and she can see there's just this deep feelings, attraction to Cosette.
The last thing that she wants to do, humanly speaking, is to satisfy that desire, because if he is with Cosette, he won't be with her, which is the last thing she wants. She loves Marius so much. She's willing to do something for him that will cause her immense pain. That is an act of supreme love that's hard to describe. When Eponine hears Marius talk of his feelings toward Cosette, it is like a dagger in her heart. Yet she moves ahead to try to find a way to unite Marius with Cosette. It is remarkable act of love and selflessness.
Gary Schneeberger:
Fearing that Javert is near Valjean plans to flee to England with Cosette, Cosette, wanting to be near Marius, though, is hesitant about the idea, but when Valjean ignores her pleas, she leaves Marius a letter, which Eponine hides from him. During Lamarque's funeral procession, the revolt begins, and barricades her built across Paris.
Javert poses as an ally, that's the kind of character that Javert has, he poses as an ally to spy on the rebels, but the street urchin, Gavroche, exposes him as a policeman. The revolutionaries hold him hostage. Valjean, who's joined the resistance to keep Marius in sight, because of Marius's love for Cosette, asks to be given Javert.
Warrick, this is a, for me, the second most moving scene in the film. Valjean has his tormentor captive. The resistance is urging him to kill the man who betrayed them. That's not who Jean Valjean is, is it? What does he do with Javert in this situation?
Warwick Fairfax:
You're right, Gary. This is one of the most remarkable scenes in the movie. Here, Valjean asks the rebels, "Hey, I'll deal with Javert." He takes him away and he draws a knife. At this point, Javert is thinking, life is over. Valjean's going to kill me. What does Valjean do? He uses the knife to cut Javert's binding, and tells him to flee, and he doesn't want revenge. This blows Javert's mind. He does not understand. This is not in Javert's belief system.
Javert says to Valjean, "Once a thief, forever a thief." He says that if Valjean lets him go, he will have to answer to Javert. Valjean says, "Javert has always been wrong." He says, "He, Valjean, is no worth on any man," and that Javert is free. There are no bargains. He does not blame Javert. Javert has done his duty, nothing more. That's what Valjean says. Valjean even tells Javert his address. That's incredible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, so he can go find him later if he wants to.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. He doubts that they paths will ever cross again, and he fires a shot to pretend to have killed Javert, and Javert flees. Valjean shows grace and mercy to Javert, which Javert would never have shown to Valjean. When Valjean frees Javert, it's like, "This makes no sense. He should not be doing this to me." As we'll find, it's sort of gnaws away his soul.
He cannot understand what Valjean has done to him or done for him. Yeah, I actually said, it's funny I said that. He did it for him, but as he will find out, he ended up doing it to him. We'll put a little teaser for what we'll talk about in a moment.
Gary Schneeberger:
That very well done, Warwick. You're very good at dropping those little breadcrumbs along the path. Stay tuned, folks, because there is some good stuff, even strong stuff coming later on. In the battle that follows, the outgunned evolutionaries are besieged. Many die. Marius is wounded. Even Javert is touched, this one hits me. Even Javert is touched by the carnage he witnesses, pinning his medal on the young boy Gavroche, who was killed.
Valjean carries Marius away to save his life, and Javert sees him and threatens to shoot him if he takes one more step, but he doesn't shoot him when Valjean doesn't listen to him, and does take one more step to get Marius out of there. What Valjean has done for him, what he has not done to him, shatters Javert, doesn't it? He has no room in his worldview for an act of mercy on that scale.
I think this makes him, Fantine's story very sad, very devastating, but these are things that happen sort of to her. I think this makes Javert perhaps the most miserable of The Miserables, as is translated in the US, because this is all coming from within. Is that a fair assessment?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's a great point, Gary. Here, we have Javert holding a pistol at Valjean as he's carrying Marius. Marius was wounded. They were crawling through the sewers to try to escape. At first, Javert tells them, "One more step and you die," but then Javert drops his pistol, and he speaks of almost a spell that Valjean has put on him. Javert can't stand that Valjean could have killed him, and yet he gave him back his life.
Javert is in the debt of a thief. He cannot stand being in the debt of a thief, of a criminal. It just eats away at his soul. Javert says, "There is nothing that we share. It is either Valjean or Javert." Javert is standing on the edge of the bridge, high over the waters. It's a long, long way down. He wonders if sins can be forgiven, and whether crimes can be reprieved.
There is a glimmer of trembling at perhaps a slight breaking in Javert's heart of stone. His belief system is beginning to slightly crumble, and Javert says, "Does Valjean know that granting me my life today, this man Valjean, has killed me?" He stares into the void and says, "I'll escape from the world of Jean Valjean. There is nowhere I can go. There is no way to go on." Then Javert leaps to his death. Javert is indeed a miserable and a wretched person.
His was a belief system of rules, regulations, and harshness, with no possibility of grace and redemption. Valjean's supreme act of grace and mercy, by sparing Javert's life completely, undoes Javert. Because of Javert's belief system, somehow, Javert seems to allow the grace and forgiveness from Valjean to kill him. When I said before, the grace of mercy that was done to him rather than for him, it's actually true, because Javert cannot process grace, and forgiveness, and redemption.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Now, the stage is set for Cosette and Marius to get married. Though he's happy for Cosette, Valjean flees before the wedding, he tells Marius about his past, his crimes and his prison term, and he worries that Cosette will face repercussions for his sins, even though earlier, she asked him to tell her about his past, which he did not do. He takes refuge again at the convent.
When Marius learns, it was Valjean who saved him when he'd been shot, something Valjean in his humility never told him, Marius tells Cosette her father is a saint for his actions. The newly married couple track him down to the convent. Talk about that final scene between Valjean and Marius and Cosette work, and why it's so meaningful in the context of what we've seen in Les Miserables.
Warwick Fairfax:
This is such a beautiful scene. It's really a scene of redemption, of love and grace. We see Valjean dying, and as he's dying, he sees an image of Fantine singing to him. She sings to him, "You raise my child with love, you will be with God." Valjean says that Cosette is the best part of his life. Marius says that Valjean saved him, and says to Cosette, as you pointed out, that her father is a saint.
With Cosette with him, Valjean says that he can die in peace, because his life is now blessed. For Valjean to say that his life is blessed, I think probably at the beginning of the movie, he would've said his life is cursed.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
It is a remarkable transformation in attitude. Valjean writes his last confession of his story of someone who turned from hating and learning to love when Cosette was in his care. Valjean gives this letter of confession, which basically describes everything that happened to him, and everything that he did, and the whole arc of his life, he gives this letter to Cosette to open after he died. At this point, Cosette really doesn't know who her adopted father truly was and what he'd been through.
Fantine, or at least her image, then sings to Valjean, "Come with me, where the chains will never bind you Lord in heaven, look down on him, Valjean, in mercy." Valjean's last words are, "Forgive me all my trespasses and take me to your glory," and then he dies. It is truly remarkable. The arc of Jean Valjean's life has completely changed. Previously, he was a man that was angry and bitter, who'd been imprisoned for so many years for doing so little, stealing a loaf of bread for his sister's sick child.
Now, he's become a man full of mercy and grace, who spent his life caring for Cosette, and in some sense, redeeming the life and legacy of Fantine. Valjean showed great mercy and forgiveness to his nemesis, Javert. Valjean's life was truly a life that became one of love, grace, and redemption. At the beginning of the movie, to think that his life could be a life of love, grace, and redemption, it would be inconceivable. His life is completely turned around.
He dies a man feeling blessed, who felt like he did some good in the world, who, he had some redemptive influence. Jean Valjean dies as a man completely at peace. It's just remarkable.
Gary Schneeberger:
There's one thing, as I hear you talk about it, that makes me, I think there's one big mistake that Valjean makes. We talk about it at Beyond the Crucible, your worst day doesn't define you. He believes, by withholding his last confession, by worrying of how Cosette will react to it, he believes right up until he passes away that what he's done before, his sins that he's so moved past and lived a life of significance, are going to cause problems, are going to haunt going forward.
Talk a little bit about just, we haven't talked about this before, but not on this show, we've talked about it many times on other shows, why it's so important to, when we've repented of our sins as they've caused our crucibles, and we've moved beyond them, and we've left them behind us, we shouldn't live in that space, that we should not let our worst day define us.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's an interesting point, Gary. He is really living a life of grace, and mercy, and forgiving others, but it's unclear how much he feels he is worthy of grace and forgiveness. He wants Cosette to know his story, but he's unwilling to tell Cosette the full story while he's alive. Maybe he thinks she would be shocked and would turn away from him, would be repulsed by what he's gone through, and being imprisoned and all.
He doesn't want her to think less of him. Maybe because he finds it challenging, perhaps, to forgive himself, he worries that Cosette may not forgive him, but yet, there must be a part of him that believes she will and she could. Otherwise, he never would've given that letter to Cosette to say, "Here's my confession, here's what happened." I guess maybe it's 50/50, maybe it's like, he's hoping that she'll forgive him, but just in case, he doesn't want to really see her face while he's alive.
Yeah, he's not fully there, believing. He's not fully forgiving himself what he's been through and his mistakes.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, interesting. Again, watching this movie through the lens of Beyond the Crucible was just fascinating and really illuminating to me. We've arrived at the end of the movie. Valjean has shown after death, he has shown after death, singing a song with all the revolutionaries who were killed, as well as Fantine. There's a beautiful scene at the end, where they all kind of, their spirits really sing together, a song of triumph.
That leaves me to ask you one last question, Warwick, and we've talked about a lot of stuff here. This is a dense movie, and I don't mean dumb. This is a packed movie. This is a movie that's packed with lots of both high joy and very low, low, low devastation. Let me ask you this. How does Les Miserables offer hope and inspiration to move beyond our own crucibles? What would you say is the greatest point about the movie?
Warwick Fairfax:
Les Miserables is a story of grace, mercy, forgiveness, and redemption. Jean Valjean starts off as a man in prison for years, for a crime that was so small, stealing a loaf of bread for his sister's sick child. He starts off being so angry and bitter for what he sees as an injustice. In one sense, he could say he has every right to feel angry and bitter. He was just so mistreated. He faces a man in Javert who is, in a sense, who is all about rules and harshness, where mercy and redemption are impossible.
Through an act of supreme mercy and forgiveness by the Bishop of Dean, Valjean's life is fundamentally changed. The Bishop could have turned him in for stealing silver. He could have said, "Okay, I'm not going to turn him in, but be gone, and enough with you." Instead, he gave him all of the silver and then some, and it was such a gift, so that he really had this vision, this bishop, of Valjean becoming an honest man. That gift would lead Valjean to being a man of grace and mercy.
Grace and mercy was shown to him, and he indeed showed that to others. He looks after Fantine's daughter, Cosette, after Fantine dies. He shows mercy and forgiveness to Javert, a man who would never show any mercy and forgiveness to Valjean or anybody. Valjean's life has truly been redeemed. He has gone from living a life of anger and bitterness, to a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. This movie shows that we can indeed have a second chance.
It shows us that the way of anger and bitterness leads to destruction. It leads to misery. A life with rules and regulations without grace and mercy cannot stand, as is shown by the life of Javert. Eventually, his life comes falling down like a house of cards. His belief system, it cannot stand. No matter how crucibles and what we have done, what has been done to us, this movie shows, there is always the possibility of hope and redemption.
Gary Schneeberger:
With that, folks, you may have noticed the house lights have gone on. It's time to gather your popcorn buckets, and your empty soda containers, and throw them out as you leave. We are done for another week of our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles, and next week, we will be back with another one. Scott, wake up. If we put you to sleep, wake up in there, Scott, because next week, will be talking about, and I need a drum roll right now.
Excellent. Next week, Warwick and I will be discussing the pursuit of happiness. Until then, folks, please know we understand how tough your crucibles are. We also understand that they can be overcome. They don't define you for the rest of your days. Until we get together to talk about our next film in this series, remember, we'll save you a seat.
Welcome to a Journey of Transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper, or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there.
It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit BeyondtheCrucible.com. Take the free assessment, and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Applying the Actionable Truths 10: Significance
This week, in the final episode of our yearlong series within the show on the actionable truths of the Beyond the Crucible roadmap, we discuss just how we can get to a life of significance as we navigate our way back from a crucible.
Pay special attention near the end, when Warwick lays out each one of the truths we covered in order, offering a step-by-step process that can ensure we do, indeed, arrive at turning our trial into triumph.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. True joy comes when you're really living a life of significance where you're living true to your inherent purpose and you're serving others. That's where just a sense of peace and joy and you feel like you're living in light of who you are made to be.
Gary Schneeberger:
This week in the final episode of our year long series within the show on the Actionable Truths of the Beyond the Crucible Roadmap, we discuss just how we can get to a life of significance as we navigate our way back from a crucible. Pay special attention near the end when Warwick lays out each one of the truths we covered in order, offering a step-by-step process that can ensure we do indeed move from trial to triumph.
Welcome friends to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. It is a special episode of Beyond the Crucible. This is the 10th part in our series within the show, as we've called it this year, on the actionable truths of the Beyond the Crucible brand. So Warwick, I talk about landing the plane a lot. We're landing the plane on this series about the actionable truths today. So pretty exciting, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It sure is. It's exciting and it's almost slightly bittersweet that we've come to the end of the series because it's been such a fun series. But yeah, it'll be fun to talk about this last actionable truth.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's the best one. It's a big one. It's an important one. But I'm going to keep you ... Well, if you've read the show notes, you know what we're talking about, but I'm still going to play a little bit of ... We're going to reveal here in a minute. But first, I want to start by saying that this is, to set the stage for everybody, this is our refreshed way. It's not entirely new, but it is more laser focused of helping you get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity. And it's what we've named the Beyond the Crucible Roadmap. We describe it like this. Every time, and I'm going to do it with theatricality this time, I'm going to read it off the page right here in front of me. We describe the roadmap as this, how we help people turn their worst day into their greatest opportunity. We provide the actionable truths to inspire hope, enable and equip them to write their own life affirming story.
A couple more details just to set you up for what we're going to talk about. The roadmap has been built from our proprietary research, which is statistically valid into how people experience crucibles and what we've learned from our experience and the experience of all the guests we've had on the show about what it takes to turn trial into triumph. And the most revolutionary news through all of this process in analyzing the roadmap we identified is what we've called what I said at the top, the actionable truths of the brand.
To pass these life-changing truths along to you, our listeners and viewers, all this year, we have done a series within the show, as I said, doing each of the 10 actionable truths, one per month, except over the summer when we did a summer movie series, and exploring the ways that these truths can help you make your way along the roadmap. It's a lot of conversation. Not conversation. A lot of monologue from me. Warwick, now it's time to ask you a question. Level set us on our discussion on the 10th of these truths. So let me ask you why actionable truths. What do we mean by that?
Warwick Fairfax:
At Beyond the crucible, our focus is how you get beyond your worst day to lead a life of significance. And what we have now is what we're calling the Beyond the Crucible Roadmap, how you go from trial or crucible to triumph or a life of significance. And we've found that there are 10 actionable truths that are catalysts in helping you move along your journey from your worst day to where you're living your life affirming vision. In other words, you're triumphing and you're living a life of significance. Now, these actionable truths have actually always been part of Beyond the Crucible. In fact, they were implicit in the book I wrote a few years ago, 2022, I believe, Crucible Leadership.
Gary Schneeberger:
So second question paired to the first one is this, how do these actionable truths ... They're actionable and they're truthful. So how do they help us move from where the roadmap takes us from trial to triumph? How do they help us get along that roadmap?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. These actionable truths, they're actually accelerators, enablers to help us move from a crucible or trial to lead a life of significance. And these actionable truths are actually catalysts. I think of the movie Fast and the Furious or actually there's a bunch of them, right? Was it 10 or something? There's been a lot of movies.
Gary Schneeberger:
There's like 10 or 11 of them, and I happen to own every one of them.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so in that movie, if you don't have nitrous oxide to take those cars to the next level, you're not going too fast. So yeah, those actionable truths are absolutely critical. Without them, you'd be stuck at trial, your worst day, the bit of despair. So really, I think what we've determined in the research backs us up is you can't go from crucible or trial to triumph without these 10 actionable truths, which really just like fuel or turbocharge your journey back from your worst day to, in a sense, your best day, a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's a great place to end your comments here because where we've arrived at the roadmap in this 10th episode, folks, is we're now in the final section. And the final section is, I've said the word a couple of times, Warwick has too, I believe. Triumph is the final section of the roadmap, but it's not the final actionable truth. The 10th actionable truth, the final actionable truth that we're talking about this year is a word you've heard quite a bit from Beyond the Crucible, and that word is significance. So Warwick, I'll turn it back to you and say, how would you define significance and why is it the final step after a crucible to indicate that we've recovered from a crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
At Beyond the Crucible, we talk a lot about getting beyond your worst day and to living a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And so we believe that when we've found a way to get beyond our crucible and that we're living a life of significance, that that means that we're truly triumphing. So what this looks like is that we're living a life that is true to who we are and what we feel is our purpose and we're having an impact on others that gives us true joy. That is triumphing. And it's important to note that when we talk about triumphing, we're not talking about triumphing in the way that the world might look at it, worldly success or money. True triumphing is when we're living in light of who we are and who we were created to be, and in some ways serving others.
So triumphing, some people might look at it in terms of money, success, fame. It's like fool's gold or maybe even a sugar high. It just tends to fade. There's no sustaining sense of joy. There's this sense of, "Oh, if I got to the next level of my career or fame or money, then I'd be happy." And it doesn't last. And so true triumphing, true joy comes from living a life of significance when you're really having an impact in the world in some way and serving others. True joy comes when you're really living a life of significance where you're living true to your inherent purpose and you're serving others. That's where just a sense of peace and joy and you feel like you're living in light of who you are made to be.
Gary Schneeberger:
So Warwick, this is a really good time to say this, and that is we've reached the end of the actionable truths, we reached the end of the roadmap, triumph, end of the actionable truths, significance. But I wanted to make it clear that unlike most roadmaps, you're driving to grandma's house, you get to grandma's house, your journey's ended and you're there and it's all fine and dandy. This isn't quite the same kind of roadmap. And I want to make sure that people understand, folks understand, listeners and viewers understand that it's important to note that there may be a finish line of sorts after a crucible, but there is no rest area. And by that I mean we have to continue learning the lessons of our crucibles and applying them even after we've reached this stage of triumph in the roadmap and this actionable truth of significance. So I wanted to ask you ... This is an important point to make, right? It's not done. We can't just like put a flag in the ground and say, "Yay, I claim this for my significance." We have to continue living that life out, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a great question and such a great point. When we're living a life of significance and we feel that we're triumphing in the best sense of the word, we can't just rest in our laurels and say, "Okay, we're here, we're good." Because in life, we're either moving forward or backward. And it's also interesting in the world of business. Companies are either growing or declining. If you see a company that seems to be coasting, that tends to be the first step towards a dip and a decline. And you don't want your life to be like that because if you're coasting, that's not good because the next step is almost inevitable. You will start declining in some sense.
So when we're leading our life to significance, it's important to ask ourselves, well, what's the next step in our journey? Maybe there's a new mission, a new vision, maybe there are new people to help. What's that going to look like? That's a very important question to ask. And it's also important periodically to ask ourselves and those who may be supporting us in our mission, whether we're still living a life of significance. Are we living in light of our beliefs and values? Have we strayed maybe? Maybe we've got distracted. So we need to be ever vigilant to ensure that we're still living a life of significance and that we're still truly triumphing because if we start drifting in our mission, that sense of joy and purpose, it will begin to fade. We've talked earlier about the difference between evolving and drifting. It's one thing if we feel like our mission and vision is evolving, we're becoming a better version of ourselves and our organization is continually moving to the next level. Evolving is different than drifting. Evolving is on purpose. Drifting happens by accident. And we've talked about this before.
So we need to ensure that we're fully living a life of purpose dedicated to serving others and it's our own unique vision and purpose and that we are living a life of significance that really is in light of who we are. It's anchored by our beliefs and values and we're not drifting. So yeah. Resting. Taking a day off is one thing, but resting in the sense of not fully considering where we're going and why we're going there, that's not a good plan. Basically, what will happen is you'll drift and that sense of significance and triumph could fade, which is obviously not what we want.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And I'm not going to fade on bringing up the American Dictionary of the English language, Noah Webster's first dictionary. Every episode that we've done this, I've taken the actionable truth and I've read what Webster's in his first dictionary, his definition was. You're going to love what Noah Webster had to say about what significance is. Just three words, importance, weight and consequence. That's what Noah Webster says significance is all about. So living a life of, to use it in our terms, a life of importance, a life of weight, a life of consequence, pretty good stuff there.
Warwick Fairfax:
Boy, those are three great words. Importance, weight and consequence. We want our life to have importance. We want to feel like we did something important, which can sound like a big word, but I think importance is in the eye of the beholder. It could be important in our neighborhood to our friends, in our town. We talk a lot about significance. It's not a competition. Who can save the most people or have the biggest global impact? We have to be true to who we are and who we feel called to be. And weight, I think it's similar to importance. It has to have some gravitas. It has to feel like that this is something that can make a difference. And consequence, we want to feel like it is a vision of consequence. Even if it's just in our neighborhood, it's making a true difference in people's lives. It's accomplishing a real purpose that we and others passionately believe in. Yeah. Those can seem like big words, importance, weight and consequence, but I think you can live a life of importance, weight and consequence that's true to you, to your family, to your town, your community. It's absolutely possible. So don't be intimidated by those three words because you can say, "Well, that's not me. Importance, weight, consequence." Okay, count me out. Looked at correctly, I think we're all absolutely able to achieve a life of significance that's truly in light of those three words.
Gary Schneeberger:
Great, great point. And folks, there are three stages in our research, qualitative and quantitative that have shown us people manifest in this section of the roadmap. So by that I mean they manifest significance in this section, in this triumph section of the roadmap. The first one is having acknowledged our crucible and its transformational impact on us. And we don't get to this point, Warwick, without this being true, do we?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. The first step in getting beyond our crucible is indeed acknowledging the pain of our worst day. We can't just say, "Nothing can see here. I'm blowing right past it. I'm not one who reflects. Let's keep going." That's not smart because whether you like it or not, that crucible will be like an anchor around you. It will stop you moving forward. So you've got to acknowledge the pain of our worst day, our crucible and we've got to realize we've been changed for better or worse. We say all the time, the person who we were is not the same as the person who we are after a crucible. It just is what it is.
And so one of the things we have to do is acknowledge that it happened and find some way to have peace with it. We've had people on the podcast with physical crucibles, victims of abuse, people who've lost businesses, loved ones. Those are irrevocable changes and we may not like them in how could we possibly, it's unbelievably painful. We've got to find a way to have peace in the sense if it happened, we've got to find a way to move on and we've got to find a way to stop being angry at ourselves or angry at others. We won't be able to reflect on the lessons of our crucible and begin to think of ways to move beyond it if we're consumed by anger and bitterness and a sense of, "I will never accept what happened to me and I will not accept the new normal." You can't even begin to think about triumphing if you wallow in the pain, however understandable of your worst day. You've got to find a way to find peace with it and acknowledge what happened and learn the lessons of them.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. The second point is we have to move beyond the hurt to cast a new, meaningful vision for life. We need this, don't we? To reach triumph and significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
Part of the healing journey is thinking of a new vision that is filled with purpose and focus on others. And when we're able to get to the point where we're beginning to think of this new vision, it says that we've taken some steps even, albeit baby steps beyond the pit of despair, beyond our worst day. And we can begin to think of what is that new vision? What is that next step in the journey? And what's interesting is very often, I think this is true of almost all of the guests we've had on the podcast, this vision comes out of the pain and the lessons that we've learned from our crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
We begin to make that shift that we talk about so often in which we say it happened for me, not to me. And as we're casting this new vision, we begin to see what our life of significance could be and will be. And as we're journeying towards this life of significance, it gives us hope and life. And we might find that we wake up many days with a sense of anticipation and a sense of excitement because we're excited about what this new day will bring. Who are we going to help? How are we going to take this vision to the next level? And as we're doing this, we're creating this new vision, this life of significance. We'll truly be able to triumph and we'll have joy, meaning, and purpose in our lives.
So this vision that leads us to a life of significance, it is a game changer. We're no longer focused so much on what happened on that worst day. Yes, we might have flashbacks, we might be triggered, but a bit like a graph which has dips as we're moving forward, there'll be temporary dips, but overall we'll just have new joy, meaning, and purpose in our lives and we'll be excited about the day. That's what a vision that's grounded in who we are and what we believe that leads to a life of significance. That's why it'll just gives this sense of triumph, which is so exciting.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And here's the third and final step, and it's the best step of all, right? It's the skeleton key to a life of significance, I think, is turning that exciting vision into a new, achievable, and sustainable everyday reality. This is really what we all long for after a crucible. When we're there and it's our worst day and we feel like we don't want to get out from under the covers and it feels like it happened to us, not for us this is what we're shooting for. This idea, this exciting new vision into an achievable and sustainable reality. That's a fair assessment, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's so true. Beyond the Crucible, we often say vision is good, but reality is better. And so when we see our vision become reality, when we're leading a life of significance, as we've said, no matter how small or big we might think it is, we're having an impact and it fills with us with joy and purpose. We have people come up to us and say, "You made a difference, made an impact today in my life, you made an impact in our town. That vision you had to clean up that neighborhood park, kids are playing there. There's joy, there's laughter, and we see the smiling faces on the kids and we're thinking, I made an impact. We made an impact." And what's important is in many cases, the vision that we have, it won't be a solitary vision, we'll have a team of fellow travelers who are helping to make our vision become reality.
And there's a special joy in not only are we seeing the joy on the faces of the people that we're helping, but we're seeing the joy on the faces of the people that we're working with. Maybe they feel that our life of significance is their life of significance, that we're part of an organization that has meaning and purpose, and they love coming to work every day. Who doesn't want to work with people when you all collectively feel like you're making a difference, you're making an impact? That's really triumphing in the best sense of the word when we feel like our vision is making an impact and we are living a life of significance. We are living a life of purpose. We are serving others. That's a joy-filled life. That's the life I think that we all want to live.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And I've got an example from just yesterday in my life that it doubles it up. So a friend of mine who used to work for me, her name's Carrie, Carrie Kintz. Hi, Carrie. Carrie has struggled for the last few years. She's felt like she was called to do a podcast. She wasn't sure she should do it. I encouraged her a couple of months ago, "Do it. You're gifted for it, do it." And she did it. She's on her sixth episode now. I'm listening to that episode yesterday. It's a faith-based podcast called Honey From the Rock, and it's all about what God's teaching her in her walk with the Lord. And as I'm listening to this, while I'm on my walk, she's speaking directly to a way I have felt about some health challenges that I've run into. So I'm like walking and she's giddy. Her voice is ramped up and she's really preaching fire and brimstone. I'm walking and I'm getting weepy and I'm walking around the neighborhood. I get home, I go sit in the backyard and I call her up and just to tell her, just to encourage her on how much that meant.
And Warwick, the two of us both were in our purposes at that time, our lives of significance. She was living it, doing the podcast. I'm living it as someone who's a mentor to her. And I sat on my backyard on the phone with her and we cried and we thanked each other and she thanked me for being a mentor. I thanked her for being so bold and speaking so truthfully about what she's gone through. That's a perfect example of what you're talking about, I think, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
That's a great example. You're encouraging Carrie to live in light and of her purpose. Anytime we do something new, as we know, like starting a podcast, it can be a little intimidating or scary, whatever that vision is, whatever that next step is. And having somebody who knows you and believes in you, knows what you're capable of, knows your skills and abilities to say, "You know, Carrie, you can absolutely do this. It's a faith-based podcast. It's in line with what you believe." Honey From the Rock sounds like a great concept to encourage others. You knew that this made sense and you encouraged her. And then just to hear her begin to have these podcasts and discuss them, she got such joy and you got joy feeling like I had an impact on somebody else's life today. Like me, you probably say I've got my good days and bad days. Some days maybe I don't live in light of my purpose as well as I could.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yep.
Warwick Fairfax:
But you think to yourself, "Today is a good day. Today I had an impact on somebody. Today I lived in light of my purpose." And that gives you strength and encouragement to go onto the next day. That is what a life of triumphing is like. Wouldn't you say Gary, when you were talking to Carrie and you're on your back porch and you're chatting, isn't that like feeling like I'm living a life of triumph in that moment?
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, absolutely. And the great part about it for me is that she felt the same way. She was living her life of triumph. She's doing this thing that she was afraid of doing. She was a little resistant to doing. She's doing it and she's got me ... I'm in the backyard. I'm balling, walking around the neighborhood and I'm crying to you because it touched me so deeply. And that was a way for both of us to talk to each other about just the significance that we were both living out and how the significance that we've both been living out has impacted the other. I think that's significant squared in my book.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's so true. And I think what that indicates is when you're living a life that's true to who you were designed to be, a life of purpose as Carrie is, and you are, and you're living a life of significance, a life of impact, that brings joy that just pure achievement for the sake of itself, or trying to get higher up the corporate ladder or get more money. Achievement and rising up the corporate ladder or money in of itself is not wrong, but in themselves, they do not bring joy and happiness. Anybody that's ever had them will know that.
As we'll get into it in a bit, I grew up in a definitely very wealthy background and at various functions growing up, I knew of plenty of successful and wealthy people, but in of itself, did it give them joy? That's not what I saw.
So who doesn't want joy and meaning and purpose? Well, you want those things, joy and meaning. You've got to live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. From my perspective, it's the way God designed us. We're designed to live a life for some high purpose, whatever that means to you, a life serving others. That's the way we're designed. You might agree or disagree with the design, or I should say you might like the design or not like the design, but it is what it is. So you really can't change that. You want joy and meaning. You've got to have a life of purpose and a life focused on others.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Now I'm going to go from a story that brought me great joy that I just told you that we just talked about. It's something that's bringing me a little sadness, work. I'm going to be honest here. Because this is the last time in this series, or its our last episode of the series and it's the last time I'm going to get to do what I call turning our attention to patient zero for Beyond the Crucible. That's our host, the founder of Beyond the Crucible, Warwick Fairfax. And I'm going to talk to you about your experiences with what our actionable truth this week is. And that's going to be asking you talk about your experience work with significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
A lot of people growing up might think, "What does a life of significance mean?" I don't know that I have it. Not quite sure what that would look like. Well, for me, my life always had significance and that might not feel bad. It says, "Well, great. You started out with a life of significance like birth almost. Terrific." The problem was my life of significance, it was not acting in a vision that was my own. So it was actually acted in a vision that was my great, great-grandfather's vision. So he ended up founding a newspaper business that over the last 150 years would grow into a very large media business in Australia. It had newspapers, magazines, TV, and radio stations. It had the equivalent in Australia of the Wall Street Journal, New York Times and the Washington Post. Its newspapers were major opinion leaders in our country, Sydney Morning Herald, the Age in Melbourne and the Australian Financial Review. So my parents saw me as somebody who one day would be the leading figure within that company. The company, as I mentioned, was founded by my great-great-grandfather. His name was John Fairfax. He was a man of great faith.
So after I came to Faith in Christ at Oxford where I went to university it was clear to me what my life of significance would be. He was a person of faith. I was a person of faith. And so it just felt like it's obvious that my role is to go in the company and as we'll get into, there's some challenges within the company and to resurrect the company and the image of the founder and he was a person of faith and ensure the company was well run and well managed and true to the vision of the founder.
And so my dad died in early 1987 while I was in my last year at Harvard Business School. And like my father, I also felt like the company wasn't being well run and was strained from the vision of the founder, John Fairfax. And my father had actually been removed as chairman a number of years before and by some other family members, so he really didn't like where the company was going. So the problem is trying to live someone else's life of significance does not bring you joy and it's certainly not triumphing. It's interesting. My dad was a philosopher at heart, a very good writer. He would write books on religion and try to synthesize different religious perspectives. He's a very bright, intellectual person. But when you see photographs of him from years ago, when he's at the office, although he loved journalism, it just seemed to be this dower look on his face. And then when you see him-
Gary Schneeberger:
I've seen the photos. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right. And then when you see him in the country, he had a property, like a cattle property an hour and a half outside of Sydney. He has this straw hat on and this joy. He loved animals, loved the land. And it's not to say there weren't aspects of what he did at the company John Fairfax Limited that he enjoyed. I'm sure there were, but I sometimes think he would have been a better philosophy professor and write books on philosophy than heading up some big media company. So even he felt like he inherited somebody else's vision, again, my great-great-grandfather's vision.
So later in 1987, the same year that my father died, I launched a $2.25 billion takeover of the company to change management and bring the company back to the vision of the founder. And the takeover went wrong right from the start. Other families sold out. They didn't want to be trapped in a company run by a 26-year-old. I get that. Who would? The October '87 stock crash didn't help. So we ended up having too much debt and three years later, despite all our efforts of trying to change management the company had to file for bankruptcy. Those years, those three years I was in charge of the company were challenging because I brought in new management. They did increase operating profits 80%, but the debt was so large that really there's nothing that the management I brought in could do. I put an almost impossible no win situation.
So three years later, the company had to file for bankruptcy in 1990. And after the company went under, life was very challenging for me. I had lost my life of significance. How could I ever find a life of significance again? I had the prospect of having a life of significance, having an impact on the nation of Australia through major newspapers of media, and now I wouldn't. I would not be having a life of significance. I don't know that I talked about it in those words, but I think subconsciously I was thinking that. And certainly I was thinking, how could I ever have an impact in life at the scale that I might have had in the nation of Australia? The answer is, well, no, that's never going to happen. And there was some truth to that. How could I possibly have that kind of impact? The odds are it was going to be a no. But I began to realize as a person of faith that maybe God had another plan for my life. And I came to realize that maybe God doesn't measure significance the way the world does and the way I did in terms of the size of the perceived impact. Maybe it's more about, from my perspective, the purposes God has for each of us.
If we're following his purposes, whether we think it big or small, he doesn't. He doesn't measure significance by the number of lives we've impacted or how many employees we have in our organization or the size of the global impact we have. He doesn't look at it that way. It's, are you being true to the vision and the purpose I've given you and being faithful to that? That's how he emerges impact and purpose. That's from my perspective. And I think more generally, I think that is true too.
And so over time, I came to have my own unique vision and my own unique life of significance. So we ended up moving to the US after the company went under where my wife was from and the '90s were pretty challenging years as I was trying to figure out what should I do now with my life. But as I realized, God loved me unconditionally and the size of impact is not measured the way I think it is. God has his own purposes for each of us. I got a job at a local aviation services company in Maryland where we live. And from there, I became a certified executive coach through the International Coach Federation. I got on two nonprofit boards at the board of my kids' school, which is a Christian school, and then became an elder at my church, Bay Area Community Church, which is an evangelical church in Annapolis, Maryland.
And then one day, a number of years ago in 2008, the pastor of my church asked me to give a sermon illustration of a message he was giving. I don't consider myself back then a natural speaker, but I was willing to do what he wanted me to do. And what's amazing is the words that I shared seemed to have an impact on the congregation. As I often say, how many former media moguls were there in the audience? None. It's not like my story is like, boy, I could see myself there. But somehow weeks and months after people came up to me and said, "Warwick, what you shared really helped me." So that led me to write my book, Crucible Leadership, which took years to write. Writing about your most painful days was excruciatingly painful. There are other themes in the book about my family, other family members, and other leaders in history, other faith leaders. But writing this book led me to starting this podcast Beyond the Crucible and the blogs and social media that we write.
And so I can now say that I truly do feel that I'm triumphing in the broad sense of the word, not in this way that the world will look at it in terms of pure money and worldly success, but in the sense that I have my own unique vision, which I'm living out, that is true to me, true to what I believe, true to my faith in Christ, which is the anchor for my soul, and that I'm living a life of significance that I believe is having impact. And I don't look at impact the way that I perhaps might have in days gone by.
When I published my book, I was literally on my knees in prayer and saying, "I will be not be ..." When I published my book, I was literally on my knees in prayer saying, "My life is not going to be defined by the number of books of this book Crucible Leadership, whether it sells hundreds, thousands. I just want to be true to who I am. I'll do my best to promote it within the resources I have. I look at what we do at Beyond the Crucible. We're doing a level best to create a quality podcast and blogs and social media, and we're trying to promote and increase the number of subscribers of the podcast and viewers and subscribers to our email and make sure that as many people as possible read out blogs and look at social media. While we're doing all that, my life of significance isn't defined by numbers. We want to have those numbers grow and increase because you're either growing or declining, but that's different than being defined by. So my life of significance is not defined by numbers. It's defined by being true to my purpose and in some way, having an impact on others. That does give my life true joy, not just what we're doing at Beyond the Crucible, but in being an elder at my church and I'm involved in a strategic planning committee of another local faith-based nonprofit.
I'm on the strategic advisory campaign committee, I should say at Taylor University, a faith-based university in Indiana where my kids went. All of those are part of me living my life of significance, including just my own family, my three adult kids and my wife and being with them and encouraging them. That's all part of my life of significance, not just beyond the crucible, but everything I do is part of that. Everything I do is part of me triumphing in the broad and true sense of that word.
Gary Schneeberger:
I've got a statement and a question for you.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay.
Gary Schneeberger:
The statement is I know I've seen the fruit of your life of significance. When you published the book, did some speaking, I remember looking at your face when people lined up to tell you how much they enjoyed the speech, how much they were looking forward to reading the book. And I watched your face and it lit up not in the way of, "Yay, my book's successful." It lit up in a way that said, "I've made a connection with this person. My story has helped me connect with this person, and this person is saying that he or she was helped by what I had to say." So I've seen that happen in your life. I'll go on to the question now. The question is this, I've heard you say on this show and in meetings and in private, I've heard you say hundreds of times over the last six years that you can't inherit another person's vision, right? You couldn't inherit your great, great-grandfather's vision, but I've never heard you articulate it this way, but I think you're also saying you can't inherit another person's life of significance, can you?
Warwick Fairfax:
As I read about my great, great-grandfather, John Fairfax, it's pretty awe-inspiring. In the last year or so, I've been reading the manuscript of a friend of mine, Stuart Johnson, who's an historian, Australian, currently living in New Zealand, person of faith and he's written biography of John Fairfax. And I knew a fair amount about him, but the more I read about him, just the person of faith he was, the wonderful father, wonderful husband, incredible employer, elder at his church. When he died, his employees said, "We've lost a kind and valued friend." He even mentored church planters, which I didn't realize until this book. And encouraged them. It's just, who is this person? So yes, it's very easy to be intimidated. And so his life of significance, having quality newspapers and just being a wonderful dad and husband and elder at his church and encouraging so many people, I feel like every nonprofit in Sydney at the time he was either on the board of or held a fund. How do you find time to sleep? Maybe he didn't. I don't know. So it's intimidating and it was a wonderful life of significance, one incredibly worthy of respect and admiration, but as wonderful as life of significance was, that's not my life of significance. God worked in John Fairfax's life to his purposes. Well, I like to think God's working in my life for different purposes.
Every human being is unique and every human being from my perspective will have his or her own unique God given purpose. So we need to live in light of that. It's not a competition. If I start trying to live up to the level that John Fairfax lived, I'd give up. It's like, if I could be 10% the man of faith he was, I'd be a happy person. And so at first, it was pretty intimidating in the last year of reading. It's almost depressing. It's like, okay, it's okay. Take a breath. Not a competition. How do you measure one person's faith against another? None of us can, only God can. That's an understandable, but a frivolous exercise. So you're right, you can't inherit a vision, you can't inherit a life of significance. I had to find my own path, my own life of significance.
And I tried to tell my adult kids, "You got to find your own life, your own path, your own journey that's true to who you are." So yeah, you can't inherit a vision and no matter how noble, and certainly John Fairfax's life of significance is about as noble as you can possibly get, you can't inherit it. You've got to find your own path and your own purpose and your own life of significance. You try to live somebody else's life to significance, you will not triumph. You got to find your own path.
Gary Schneeberger:
I have a feeling, the question I'm about to ask you, you might have just answered it there. I don't know. We'll see. We end all of these episodes we have in the series within the show on the actionable truths. I've asked you what's the number one takeaway you want to leave with listeners and viewers from this episode on triumph, the area of triumph and specific specifically on significance. If there's only one thing they can take away, what do you want that to be?
Warwick Fairfax:
To truly get beyond your crucible, you need to live in life of this 10th actionable truth, a life of significance. You truly can't triumph without embracing this. This truth, this actionable truth, a life of significance. You want joy in your life, it's not from power. It's not from money. It's not from sitting on the beach all day or playing golf all day. Not that that's wrong. None of those things are wrong. But your life has got to be dedicated to something that's important, some a higher purpose, something that serves others. And so when we've gotten beyond our crucible and are leading a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, we will feel true joy and meaning in our lives. It doesn't mean that we won't have bad days where things will go wrong or bad things will happen to us or we'll make mistakes. But a bit like a graph, we'll be getting to a better place. Overall, we'll find our life has meaning and joy.
And as we just said, this life of significance is got to be our own. We might admire our friends, our neighbors, our coworkers' life of significance, or ancestors. It's got to be our own unique life of significance. And if our friends and neighbors, especially our mentors, if we're chatting to them and say, "You know what? I'm just going to borrow your life of significance." A good mentor will push back and say, "You know what? This is my life and it's great for me, but you need to find your own purpose. Don't just copy my life of significant. My path, my vision. Go to the school where I went to, follow my path, work where I worked. No. Find your own path. My path was fine for me, but find your own and find your own life of significance. It cannot be borrowed, cannot be inherited. It's got to be discovered. It's got to be rooted in who you were and who you are. And that's a huge lesson for me. I thought I had my life of significance growing up and it was my great, great-grandfather's John Fairfax. It was never mine. I just didn't realize it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So that is the episode, right? That's your takeaway for the episode. Now, let's move from the episode. I'll move my microphone and I'll put it over here. To indicate we've moved from off the episode, now we're talking about the entire series. And we've spent the entire year doing this work. We've spent 12 months going through these actionable truths, 10 of them and all. We've reached the 10th one. Lots of wisdom in there. There's one takeaway that folks can take with them from the series. What do you hope it is?
Warwick Fairfax:
Going from trial, in other words, crucible to triumph is not easy. These 10 actionable truths are important catalysts to get you beyond your crucible to a life filled with joy and meaning. That word catalyst is one of the single most important words in the series. Without these actionable truths, you're stuck in a pit of despair. You're stuck in the crucible. These actionable truths, they are catalysts in helping you move from your worst day to a life of triumphing. After our crucible, we need to self-reflect on what happened and the lessons of our crucible. And then we need to be authentic to who we truly are, not who others want you to be. And then we need to have faith in something beyond ourselves and have the character truly live in light of that faith. We need to have a vision that is uniquely ours and fellow travelers to help bring this vision to reality and the perseverance to keep going when we face challenges, which is inevitably going to happen.
And finally, when we live our unique vision and it's having an impact, we'll feel a sense of redemption, as I certainly did. And we'll feel our life does indeed have significance. And our lives will then have purpose that brings us joy. So these actionable truths, they're catalysts. They'll help you move on your journey from your worst day, your trial and crucible to, in a sense, your best day or best days when you're triumphing, and you truly feel like you're living in a vision in light of your purpose, and you feel that you truly are living a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.
Gary Schneeberger:
I don't know if you saw it, Warwick, but in the distance, they just waved the checkered flag in the Fast and Furious movie because we have-
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed.
Gary Schneeberger:
We have completed the series within the show on the actionable truths. That is a wrap, friends indeed on this series. But fear not. Here's why you should fear not. We're cooking up another series within the show that we'll be discussing throughout 2026. So stay tuned. The last little bit of housekeeping here is that for the next ... This is our last "new episode" of 2025. For the next three weeks, we're going to go with best of shows of our best shows from 2025, three of them. Please do not think of these as repeats. Think of these as must see peats. These are the best of the best of what we've done in this past year.
So Warwick, the holidays are coming up. I wish all the listeners and viewers a great holiday season, and we'll see you next year.
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