Millions worldwide are dealing with fears of the “what if?” right now as the world struggles through the health and economic uncertainties of the coronavirus outbreak.
These worries can be upsetting, depressing and even emotionally paralyzing; in fact, one scientific study has determined fear of the unknown can be more distressing than fear of serious injury or death. In this new episode of BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE, host and Crucible Leadership founder Warwick Fairfax offers several encouraging insights into rising above those fears and the hopelessness they can cause, noting that what the world is facing today is a hypercharged crucible experience not unlike what we all face in our lives when more intimate failures and setbacks strike. They key, he and cohost Gary Schneeberger discuss, is finding outlets that create personal calm amid the chaos and continuing to move forward in active combat against the fears that plague you — uncovering the opportunities that exist behind the challenges. “When fear starts coming on,” Fairfax says, “don’t wait for it to grow from an ember into a forest fire.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everybody to the latest episode of Beyond The Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, your cohost of the podcast and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And you have clicked play on a podcast that deals with crucible experiences, those moments in life that are difficult, that are challenging, that can be in fact, quite painful and can change key aspects of your life, change the path of your life, the trajectory of your life. And in this particular episode, while we often talk to guests, in this particular episode, it’s less an experiential conversation with a guest and more of an unpacking of some of the key principles of crucible leadership, which is the organizing construct of Beyond The Crucible, and it is the creation of both the life experience of the host of the program who is here with me and I’m going to bring him in now.
Gary S:
That’s Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, welcome to what I hope is going to be a very, both enlightening and I think hopeful discussion for listeners.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. Great to be here and looking forward to it.
Gary S:
What we’re going to talk about today, Warwick is interesting and it’s timely, and yet it’s also timeless, it’s the idea of fear of the unknown and the power of the fear of the unknown, and not always in a great way, usually not in a great way. And there’s a reason why we’re talking about this right now, let’s be honest. When I said it’s timely, right now as Warwick and I are recording this, we are in shelter at home, and the world, not just the US, the entire world is going through the COVID-19 pandemic, and there is an awful lot of fear of the unknown.
Gary S:
At the same time though, this is a timeless subject because fear of the unknown dates back far before the coronavirus, dates back to the beginning of time. And you can find examples of this idea of, “What’s out there? What could harm me? What could change my life? What could knock me off balance?” Not knowing what to fear sometimes leads you to fear everything, and that makes it that much more devastating. And it’s very interesting, before we dive into the subject, Warwick, I wanted to share with everyone that this isn’t just anecdotal, this idea that fear of the unknown is such a severe fear.
Gary S:
There was actually a study done in the Journal Of Anxiety Disorders in 2016 proving again, that this was not something that just came up in the last several months. And in the Journal Of Anxiety Disorders, they set out to determine if fear of the unknown was, in their words, to borrow a phrase from folks who are aware of the Lord Of The Rings series, if fear of the unknown was one fear to rule them all, to use the language somewhat of the Lord Of The Rings series. And they did some extensive research that I don’t pretend to really understand, except that I read the summary of the research. And what it found was fascinating.
Gary S:
They studied fear of such things as being poorly evaluated, either at work or just by people in social interactions, someone doesn’t like you. They studied that fear to see if that was what they called a fundamental fear. They studied whether or not fear of injury or fear of even death, if that rose to the level of a fear that was that one fear to rule them all, that was so fundamental that was sort of the logo for fear, if you will, And they determined, these researchers who did this study in 2016 for the Journal Of Anxiety Disorders, found that none of those fears were fundamental but that fear of the unknown was.
Gary S:
And again, I don’t pretend to understand any of the science in it, I’m a word guy. But one thing that they said when they determined what were the characteristics, and this is a good place for us to begin to jump off Warwick and talk is, one of the characteristics of what makes a fear fundamental was that it is continuously and normally distributed in the population. Again, not a scientist but a word guy, my translations for that, my layman’s translation is, fear of the unknown is a fear that is always there in a culture and a fear that is widely held throughout the culture.
Gary S:
That to me is what they’re saying. That to me is what makes fear of the unknown such a fundamental fear, such a one fear to rule them all, and the reason why we’re talking about it today, Warwick.
Warwick F:
That’s amazing, really, what Journal Of Anxiety is saying, here you have this fear that’s, according to them is this fundamental fear, and what we’re going through now really across pretty much the whole world with the coronavirus is the fear of the unknown, that’s what we’re facing. So we’re facing one of the toughest challenges. We’ve got challenges on so many levels. Obviously, from a health perspective, you have this virus that came out of nowhere, that nobody has any immunity to, so on one level there is the fear of, “I might get mildly sick, maybe moderately sick, or even severely sick and die.” There is no known cure at the moment. There is no known vaccine, scientists around the world are madly researching as fast as they can and making valiant efforts, but as we speak right now, there’s no scientifically proven cure and a vaccine could be a year or 18 months away.
Warwick F:
Most of us are sheltering in place, we go to the grocery store as little as possible. If you go, wear gloves, wear a mask. Stay inside. So you’ve got the whole health side of the coronavirus, but then you’ve got the economic impact. There’s many people that not only are they at home, they might be getting a paycheck, maybe they’re not. Maybe their company said, “Yeah, we’ll pay you through April, May. We’ll see.” It’s like, “What does we’ll see mean?” And some, whether it’s waiters, some folks have been laid off without having any idea when they’ll be back at work, restaurants, will it be a month, two months, six months, longer?
Warwick F:
How will restaurants even make a living? They make their money by packing them in, packing them in is like something that may not happen for a very long time. So all that’s to say is, there are so many fears from a health, from an economic, from a job, just how long will this go on? And the answer is right now is, we don’t know. It’s almost the ultimate fear of the unknown. There are other fears but this is a textbook example unfortunately, of why the fear of the unknown is so gripping, so paralyzing, if you will.
Gary S:
Right. And one of the things you described is this idea that your mind races in all directions. I’ve heard it described by actors sometimes, and bear with me in this comparison, doing a play from a stage when the audience is in front of you, that’s a little bit easier to pull off in theater in a round, because you’ve got to act in a 360 degree way. And in some ways, in very real ways, what’s going on now is your mind is racing 360 degrees. There is every day a new headline, a new social media post, a new comment you hear from someone, something that causes your mind to go, “What if?” Or, “How about?” Or, “Have we thought of this?”
Gary S:
It made me think of, you’ve all seen, listener, I think those decision trees. You pull up to a stoplight or a stop sign, you can turn left or right and you choose, “I turn right.” And then you go down that, and that leads to a bunch of other decisions that you can make because there’s a park and you can stop or you turn left and there’s a bunch of decisions, there’s a ballpark and you can go, however that works. Those decision trees, it seems like an endless collection of decision trees that has nothing but links and tendrils attached to it. And before too long, your mind can get down to some places where it can be very very, very confusing, very saddening and very tormenting even, to imagine the what ifs that present itself when you’re truly gripped by fear of the unknown.
Warwick F:
That’s so true, Gary. It’s really the ultimate decision tree. It’s an endless collection of decision trees, an endless cycle of potential fears. It is just so much. You look at the news each day and federal government briefings, state government, local government, it’s, “When is the virus going to hit its peak? How bad is it in our area? Maybe it’s a lot worse than I think because cases are unreported. If I get sick, should I go to the local hospital? If I go to the local hospital, a lot of times loved ones come in and I might be there for who knows how long, and how long will it be until I know if I’m sick or not sick?”
Warwick F:
You hear famous folks like the prime minister of Britain, Boris Johnson. At one point, he was in intensive care, and he’s like in his mid 50s. It’s happening to everybody. So you’ve got the endless thoughts about what could happen, the what ifs and, “What do I do if that happens? What about my loved ones?” Especially for ones… I have a mother-in-law in her late 80s whose lungs aren’t particularly good. We all have folks that we’re concerned about. And as I mentioned before, the job front. How long will it be before we get back to work? And what if this? And what of that? “Can I prepare this?”
Warwick F:
And so it’s almost like hundreds or thousands or even millions of fears if you work out all the numbers and all the elements of the decision tree, all the things that could possibly happen that we don’t know and therefore we can’t prepare for what… we can prepare on some level, stay home, be safe, minimize outside contact, there’s some things, but there are a lot of things that we can’t prepare for because we don’t know what’s going to happen. And so that’s where the fear of the unknown is so deadly, you just get paralyzed by the endless decision tree of what ifs without seemingly any way to combat it. That’s why it’s so paralyzing, it just overwhelms our emotional systems to be able to handle.
Gary S:
And the reason why we’re talking about this in the context of crucible leadership, in the context of this podcast, Beyond The Crucible is that in the same way that it’s an endless collection of decision trees, when you’re suffering through, you’re struggling through fear of the unknown. In some ways, it’s an endless selection of possibilities for crucible experiences. Those fears, what we’re fearing as we’re going through this, no matter what it is that is prompting the fear of the unknown, and sometimes it can be not much externally, it’s just fear of change and those kinds of things, it’s a collection of fear of those crucible experiences.
Gary S:
And we talk here about the pain of crucible experiences and how they are hard to bounce back from and you have to learn the lessons of them. But is it fair to say that fear of the unknown is in a very real sense, fear of an endless possibility of crucible experiences across the map?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And while the launching point for this discussion is the coronavirus that we’re going through, based on what the experts tell us, at some point we’ll get through it, the world will go back to work, there’ll be a vaccine, there’ll be cures. The best experts in the medical and scientific field assure us that we will get through it. And so that’s some comfort, so we’ll get through this. But unfortunately, there are always crucibles and it could be at work, maybe your company gets acquired by another company. So what’s going to happen for my job? Maybe middle management or people on the ground floor, maybe we’ll lose our jobs. What’s going to happen?
Warwick F:
Maybe you are going to a new high school or it’s your first day in college coming up, and you’re in another state, it’s the first time you haven’t been living at home. What’s going to happen there? You’ve just got married. It’s seemed really good on the honeymoon, but now you’re actually doing it day in, day out. You just hope for the best and all that. But anytime there’s change, there’s going to be fear. That is just part of life. So just understanding when the fear of the unknown, which is just part of being human, when that happens, how do you deal with that? How do you fight those fears? Because left to themselves, they’re like weeds, they grow all over the place.
Warwick F:
So you can’t let them grow, you got to fight it. It’s a day in, day out. You can’t always determine what’s going to happen at the macro level or health wise or economy, but you can fight your attitude and fears. That is something that you can have some control over.
Gary S:
And we always say on Beyond The Crucible if we’re talking to a guest or we’re just talking to each other, we always say that we deal in crucible experiences, those painful moments in life that can change the trajectory of your life, but we don’t talk about them for the purposes of camping out there and wallowing in them or not being able to move beyond them, we talk about them so that we can learn from them and we can apply the lessons to them to then move forward and live a life of significance. So listener, we are not talking about fear of the unknown and the power of the fear of the unknown, the paralyzing power of the fear of the unknown.
Gary S:
We’re not talking about that so that we can continue to stay there. What Warwick just talked about was we want to offer some ideas, some insights, some hope, some healing to help you, not just in the midst of the coronavirus, but for someone who’s listening to this podcast in three years, the things that are fueling your fear of the unknown. We talk about these things now because we want to help you get beyond them. And Warwick has very recently published a blog which has some really, really excellent insights, Warwick, about how to move beyond fear of the unknown. Share some of those beautiful thoughts.
Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely, Gary. I think it starts at one level with being in the moment. Part of being in the moment each day is, yes, it’s battling your fears, and there are some tips that I’m going to mention here in a moment. It’s being present. We can’t solve tomorrow’s problems. I’m all for planning, but there’s a lot of things you can’t handle. And one of the greatest sources of wisdom in life is just this discipline to say, “I’m going to stay present today. I’m going to work on what I can control, and what I can’t control, I’m going to attempt not to worry about it. So what can I get done today? How can I be present? What are the things I can get done to positively move things forward in my professional life, my personal life? How can I be present with my family?”
Warwick F:
We live in an unprecedented time where many of us are having more time with our families on a 24 hour basis than we ever had, whether we have young kids, teenage kids, older kids that may be living with us, just being present with them. The daily battle is key. And so part of that daily battle, it really begins with what I’d say is reflection or meditation and prayer, and that’ll be different for everybody. For me, I read my Bible each day, I’ll pray, reflect, maybe listen to some music, some worship music. I’ve different rhythms to try and center myself.
Warwick F:
Others, maybe it’s yoga or just some form of meditation, maybe it’s reading a favorite book. I heard one person recently say that they love memorizing some of the speeches of Abraham Lincoln, who obviously we all admire, whether it’s his Gettysburg Address, “Four score and seven years ago,” or what have you. Maybe it’s some of the sayings of Nelson Mandela. We all have different ways, but that’s certainly one is just center yourself in some sayings, some teachings, prayer, meditation, words from great leaders. Something that really pulls you back to your core, to your central beliefs. It just helps to calm yourself. So that’s certainly a big one.
Warwick F:
I think for many of us, we can still walk. We can’t walk in big groups, but whether it’s around your neighborhood, maybe it’s a local park. We want appropriately distance, but I think for many of us, we can still get outside and there’s something about being in nature and the birds, trees just being in that environment, just feeling the gentle wind, I think that can be a very helpful. Other tips will include… I love music and I love all kinds of music, I have somewhat eclectic tastes from classical to swing, jazz, even ragtime, more popular music. Obviously, I mentioned worship music. All different kinds of music.
Warwick F:
But whatever music is your genre, that you really love and that calms you and just takes you away to a familiar place that you love, music can really do that, I think that is helpful. And while we can’t be with family, extended family or friends in the way that we have been, certainly we are around our immediate family. Just take time to be present in ways that many people have maybe two jobs and they’re working all kinds of hours, kids maybe in high school, college studying and having all sorts of extracurricular activities, so we have a unique time to be present and be with, to play, hopefully to find a way to laugh, amidst the fear.
Warwick F:
And for those who are not present, with technology, whether it’s FaceTime, Zoom, or many other different means, we can actually connect with family members all over the country and indeed all over the world. And so that’s very helpful.
Gary S:
It is. And in fact, I, as I’ve said as a word guy, I have rejected the phrase social distancing at this time. I understand the concept and I’m not saying, please don’t hear me, listeners, saying I’m rejecting social distancing. What I’m rejecting is this idea that however it came up, social distancing isn’t what we need. We need physical distancing, that’s what we need in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. But more than ever, we need social connection and those things that Warwick talked about, leveraging technology to be able to connect with people.
Gary S:
I saw a beautiful, beautiful photo on Instagram of a son of an elderly father who was in a nursing home, and he couldn’t see his father because of the restrictions on visitation. So he sat out, he sat on a ledge outside the window of his father’s room and called him up on the phone and talked to him. And it was just a beautiful picture of how social connection can still happen in the reality of social distancing. There are still ways to leverage technology. And one of the beautiful things about that, we’ve all seen the picture in a restaurant. You go in, there’s a family of four, mom, dad and two kids and everybody’s staring at their cell phone, everybody’s looking at their phone and they’re not interacting.
Gary S:
Technology, these things that were supposed to bring us closer together have in many ways brought us further apart. And one of the great opportunities we have in this time right now of the pandemic, one of the great opportunities we have is to be able to seize back control of technology to bring us closer together, not farther apart. And that’s one of those things that even in fear of the unknown, we can look to be hopeful about because it speaks to a better future when this is all over.
Warwick F:
It’s so true. And it’s funny, sometimes technology can help us get together in ways, maybe we haven’t normally because we’re stuck at home and we’re pining for social interaction. Just as an example, about a week or so ago, my daughter said, “Well, why don’t we have a Zoom call with mom’s family?” And my wife has four brothers and a sister and there all over the place from Tennessee, to Iowa, to Illinois, Ohio. They’re all over the map and so it’s not easy for us all to get together. Well, surprise, surprise, they were all available. They all turned up and they love just chatting in ways that… Maybe once a year we’ll all get together somewhere or we try to, but it’s hard.
Warwick F:
In fact, we’re going to do another one tonight, funnily enough, that my daughter also said, “Hey, let’s organize.” So that’s really helpful. Some other couple of tips. One is, as we combat this whole concept of fear, I grew up, as most listeners know, in a newspaper family in Australia, so I follow the news, politics, economics very closely, always how I love being informed, it’s just part of my culture and upbringing. And I think it’s very important to be informed about what’s happening with right now, coronavirus, health, economy, Federal, state, local, that’s important, but not too much. You can listen to news channels 24/7, and the more you do, it just gets overwhelming. It’s like, “Oh my gosh, the world’s going to end it. What about this? And what about that?”
Warwick F:
So stay informed. I don’t know if it’s five minutes a day, half an hour, an hour, whatever works for you, but if you feel like, “Okay, I’ve got enough information,” and the fear meter starts creeping up, it’s like, “Okay, is this going to serve me by keeping on listening and watching this news channel or radio or whatever it is? And often the answer is actually no. So just be disciplined, stay informed, but don’t keep plugged in 24/7, it just drive most of us crazy. And another really important thing, we’ve talked a lot about reflection and music and walking in nature, and that’s all very important, but one of the most important things is keep moving forward.
Warwick F:
It feels like we can be paralyzed and for some of us that have virtual businesses that may be easier for some than others, but whether it’s professionally or personally, maybe there are some things at work that you never had a chance to get to, start thinking about planning, “Hey, what are some plans I need to do?” Maybe you’re in a job that’s not really that satisfying, well, think, “Okay, I’m stuck at home now, let me think about, well, what do I want to do? What is a job that better fits my skills, that I’m passionate about?” As we often talk about, helps us lead a life of significance. So think of every day as an opportunity. And that’s one of the things I think we’ll talk about is turning challenges into opportunities professionally and personally.
Warwick F:
Every day think about, “Okay, how can I move the ball forward?” Because we’re in the present and we’re focused on getting something done, it helps with fear. And just anecdotally, one of the things I want to mention is, because I’m somebody that have a creative mindset, I’m not creative artistically necessarily, but I’m always thinking of things and imagining, maybe reflecting, dreaming a bit, my mind is naturally always going at a fairly fast pace, which is not always good, which means that in terms of that whole fear branch stuff we talked about, left to its own desires, it would be on overdrive. And so because I’m wired that way, I have to be very careful.
Warwick F:
And so by channeling my brain, which I can’t stop, it’s just the way I’m wired, in ways of obviously, do the meditation and the walking and listening to music, “Okay, how can I move things forward professionally? Who do I need to get ahold of?” Connecting with family, that helps me, just keep my mind focused on areas that’s actually productive. So there’s actually opportunities amidst the challenges.
Gary S:
Absolutely. And there’s an article that Forbes Magazine did a few years back about how you deal with… This was done in the context of change in the workplace, change in your professional life, but it was that fear of the unknown, change in professional life, as you talked about earlier, Warwick, can be very fear of the unknown centric because you just don’t know what the new boss is going to do, he’s going to bring his own people on board, etc, etc. One of the things Forbes said that dovetails nicely with what you just explained, Warwick, is that, one way to overcome fear of the unknown is to acknowledge your fears by writing them down on paper so that you have them in what they say is objective form and can stop dwelling on them.
Gary S:
One of the things I’ve just had to do with my computer is like offload a bunch of heavy files because it was cutting down the ability of my computer to do the processes that needed to do for me to get work done. In the same way, you can offload those fears, write them down, get them in tangible form so that you can stop dwelling on them. Then Forbes advises, you can go through each one and jot down what you would do in the event that fear came to pass. You can actually spend some time processing them out in logical ways, not in necessarily overly emotional ways. And what you’ll find, many, many times, they say here, it diffuses the emotional angst, but also you can come to see that those fears, that unknown might not be that likely to occur.
Gary S:
You can move some unknowns off the plate a little bit. I’m with you, Warwick, I have a very active imagination. I’m the kind of guy that in general times, 10 years ago, if I had a bad headache or my shoulder hurt, I couldn’t go to the internet to look up the symptoms to see what was wrong with me because it was either a common cold or I had some deadly disease. And it’s that kind of mindset that I have too, and the idea of jotting down those things and separating the possibilities from the things that really are flights of fancy, I think can be extraordinarily helpful, but offloading those emotions from your head to paper can really free up some space in your head to focus on some of the solutions you’ve been talking.
Warwick F:
That’s such a great point. I can remember in the past, and we all do it differently, there are times when being a person of faith, I would just write down my fears and instead of hopefully not a mythical conversation with God, hopefully actually it was, because very few of us hear an audible voice, but I would just write it down what I was fearing and anxious about, and then in some sense, I would just sense the Lord’s leading about what his response was, which it might be as simple as, “Warwick, I have you, I’m with you.” Maybe an objective perspective with a little bit of a twist on that, but there are different ways of doing it. And I agree with you, Gary, that just writing it down and then objectively looking at it, and writing what if that happened, what would I do about it.
Warwick F:
Other ways I think it helps often I’m somebody that I like journaling and all that, but I also like talking with others, sometimes it helps me think by verbally processing with other people. So at times when I’d been fearful about things, I’ll say to my wife, sometimes it’s as simple or as complex as, “I’m feeling anxious and fearful, but I’m not sure what it’s about.” And for me, it drives me crazy when I’m fearful and anxious and I don’t even know what it’s about, I can’t formulate it, then I can’t do anything about it. And so we’ll talk about it and because she knows me, “Oh, is it this? Is it that? I think maybe it’s this.” And nine times out of 10, she nails it, and then she talks me through it and then I sort of calm down. So that’s certainly one.
Warwick F:
And with our kids is a good example. I’ve had kids go to college or applying to graduate school, and inevitably, there’s the fear of the new, and so we will go through it, “Okay, well what’s the pros and cons of this versus that? And let’s talk about those fears.” And it’s easy for me to be calm about it because it’s not my life. So I can objectively offer some counsel and thoughts and advice whether it’s in decision making or fears. I think that’s where this whole concept of world as a community, if ever we need our community, it’s right now, both journaling is helpful and just friends and family that we can talk with, be honest with, if you’re fearful, just admit it because the other person is probably just as scared as you are, but they don’t want to admit it.
Warwick F:
And it’s not saying and you do it to everybody, but if they’re really close friends and family, it’s okay to say, “I’m anxious,” and maybe, “How are you doing?” That’s one of the other things is, when you talk about your fears, but also hear other people’s fears and you can be present with them, counsel with them, pray, meditate with them, whatever works for you, that’s helpful too because it gets your mind off yourself. So I think it’s just being honest about your fears, talking about it, whether it’s in a journal or to other people, hearing other people’s fears, helping them. Somebody said once, “When fear is named, it’s loses its power.” And so there is something about that. And I think as I said earlier, it is a daily battle, it’s a bit like when you start getting a cold or whatever, yeah, there’s no cure for the common cold, but you can still have vitamin C or lots of rest or whatever it is you think might help.
Warwick F:
Same with fear is when it starts coming on, don’t wait for it to grow from an ember into a full forest fire, deal with it early on, use whatever mechanism, we’ve mentioned a bunch, whether it’s journaling, talking to friends, listening to music, praying, walk in nature, whatever. All of these are tools, but just combat it. It’s a war, combat it early on, don’t let it take root. It’s a lot easier to deal with it when it’s a small little ember than a massive forest fire. So it’s a war, it requires discipline, proactivity, and yeah, you just got to keep at it every day.
Gary S:
Those are extremely excellent points, and listener, I hope you’re hearing in these words, hope. If you tuned in at the outset and you were fearing the unknown, you were gripped by fear and one of the things you needed to get your mind off what you were racing around fearing and you clicked play on this podcast to help you do that, just to distract yourself, hopefully, we’ve done more than that in this discussion and actually helped you begin to see ways to use Warwick’s precisely chosen and very, very correct word to combat the fear of the unknown. Hopefully, you’ve gleaned some tips out of this.
Gary S:
And Warwick, before we go, I do want to explore this for a little bit, what happens, what’s the benefit? We’ve talked about how fear of the unknown is a fundamental fear, even greater according to at least one scientific survey, is greater than the fear of death. We’ve talked about ways that you can engage your mind and body to help you overcome that, but in the last few minutes we have, share with listeners from your perspective, what’s the benefit of that? What happens when you come on the other side of fear? It’s the same thing as we talk about when you come out of the other side of your crucible experience. There’s benefits to that, there’s hope in that, there’s healing in that. What can that look like for our listeners who are struggling right now with fear of unknown?
Warwick F:
It’s a good question. When you’re faced with the crucible learning to deal with it, it’s almost like a muscle memory for an athlete, it helps you learn how to deal with crucibles next time, it’s never easy. I can think of an example of my own life it’s not so much related to fear of the unknown, but forgiveness, just because of growing up in a wealthy family, media business, I think I said earlier on a podcast, it used to feel like I had a sign on my back in middle school that said, “Betray me.” And so I’ve had a lot of practice at forgiveness, and I’ve said earlier that if you don’t forgive, the person that most hurts is you, it corrodes your soul. And that’s a whole another discussion. But the point is, the more I’ve done it, something happens. Yeah, it still hurts, but I was like, “Okay, that hurt. I got to forgive and move on.” And it has gotten easier. I have to admit, it has gotten easier.
Warwick F:
So I think dealing with crucibles can be the same way if you use some of these methods of just combating it every day, whatever tools work for you, whether it’s listening to music, prayer, walk in nature, journaling, talking with friends, it does help. It gives you hope that, “Okay, I can handle this, I can deal with this.” I’m reminded of a friend of mine, Margie Warrell, has a recent book called, You’ve Got This! It’s nice when you’re able to deal with something and say, “You know what, I’ve got this. It’s unnerving, but I can combat it.” And one of the keys with crucibles, which I admit is not easy to do in the moment, is to switch our perspective, it’s seeing it as a challenge, which it is, but saying, “Okay, what’s the opportunity here? What are some things that this challenging circumstance, which I never would have chosen to go through, how can I see some opportunity in that?”
Warwick F:
And it could be on a personal front, as we’ve discussed, chance to spend more time with family than maybe we have before, maybe it’s a chance to connect with friends and distant family members who were never available but now they’re just dying for communication with another human. Maybe it’s a chance to say, “Okay, where do I want to go in my professional life? Where do I want to take my business? What plans do I want to jot down that will really take things to the next level when things get back to normal,” which all the experts say, at some point, life will get back to some semblance of normal, maybe it’s a new normal, but there are always, or very often, there are opportunities amid the challenges, personally and professionally where we can take advantage of it
Warwick F:
And so when crucibles happen, there are typically those opportunities to turn a challenge into something that can be beneficial. So it’s learning those tools and exercising that muscle memory so that fear has less of a hold and we can reduce the fear and see those challenges as opportunities we can actually take advantage of. So exercising that muscle memory on our mindset, that’s probably the single most important thing we can do when faced with a crucible like this.
Gary S:
That is an excellent place for us to wrap up our conversation today. I want to reiterate to the listener before I summarize what we heard today, that we are talking about, Warwick and I are talking about the challenge of the fear of the unknown, why it’s so powerful, why it’s so fundamental as a fear. We are talking about this in the context right now, as we record this of the COVID-19 pandemic, but that’s not the only thing we’re ever going to be afraid of that involves the unknown. The things that we’ve talked about here were relevant prior to COVID-19, and will be relevant after that because that’s just one thing. Fear of the unknown is a foundational fear.
Gary S:
One of the things I discovered in my research, H.P. Lovecraft, an author said this about fear, “The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.” He was speaking in the context of that’s what makes horror fiction and horror movies so scary is that the fear of the unknown, what’s behind that door, and those fears will always be with us. So as you look at that, whether you’re listening to this right now in 2020 or you’re listening to this five years from now, here are some key takeaways I think from our conversation that you should take with you because I think it will offer you hope.
Gary S:
The first one is to realize you are not alone, science proves you’re not alone. We talked about a study in the journal of anxiety disorders that said, “Fear of the unknown is a very real thing and a fundamental fear in life.” You’re not weak because you’re going through it, you’re in pain, and that makes you just like me and just like Warwick. So remember that as you move forward. The second thing is, Warwick said it, you can’t control what happens to you, but you can always control how you respond to it. And what Warwick exhorted us to do is to be present in your life and be prepared to combat that fear and not to wait to do it.
Gary S:
To combat that fear and do it quickly is one of the best ways to keep it from just… We talked about endless chains of what ifs going on, it’s like weeds growing. Go get rid of those weeds early, combat it early so it doesn’t consume your thinking, and you can move forward to what comes next. And then I think the last takeaway that is really important is, head on over to crucibleleadership.com, and look in the blog section for the blog that Warwick wrote most recently on Choosing Hope: Eight Tips to Move Beyond Fear. Warwick unpacks in greater detail some of the things he talked about in our podcast today to help you find ways to combat the fear and combat it early. Again, that’s crucibleleadership.com, and the blog is titled Choosing Hope: Eight Tips to Move Beyond Fear.
Gary S:
Well, thank you for spending the time with us today listeners. Not the most pleasant conversation to have at the outset, but again, in Crucible Leadership with Beyond The Crucible, our goal is to talk about difficult moments, to talk about those things that can be paralyzing to us in some cases, but not to talk about them so that we can just commiserate with one another, but to talk about them so that we can, to use Warwick’s excellent words, we can combat the effects of those crucible experiences. We can combat the effects, and in this case of fear of the unknown, and we can move beyond it.
Gary S:
And the reason that we want to move beyond it is because even though it feels right now like this could be the end of your story, that this could be, “This is it, I’m convinced that whatever I’m thinking might happen is going to be really, really, really bad and it’s going to have a lifelong negative effect in our life.” We talk to people all the time on this podcast who’ve had that experience because something’s happened to them and they felt that way, but they’ve pushed through, they’ve learned the lesson of their crucible. They found out what it is that’s on the other side, they’ve pushed through, they’ve combated the fear, and they’ve emerged on the other side in a better place with, as Warwick said, opportunity that they see and they seize.
Gary S:
So always remember your crucible experiences are painful, your fears are real, but they’re not the end of your story. They are in fact, they can in fact, and they are often, if you really press in, they’re not the end of your story, they’re the beginning of a new chapter in your story that leads to something far more joyous than fear is fearful, and that is a life of significance.
His father died when he was 9. Not long after, his mother’s drug addiction forced him out of his home to live with his grandparents. Money was tight, school was not his strong suit, and by his late teens Trent Griffin-Braaf was running with the wrong crowd. By 19, he was serving 4-12 years in prison for selling drugs. But he tells Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax that when he had to attend his grandmother’s funeral in shackles, unable to hug grieving loved ones because of the chains, he decided he would not allow being locked up to be his legacy. He seized the academic opportunities prison offered, and when he was paroled after three years he dedicated himself to learning all he could to build a life he could be proud of. He landed a job at a hotel cleaning toilets, spent hours soaking up from co-workers the ins-and-outs of their jobs — and in a few years had become the hotel’s general manager. But he had a grander vision — and risked all he had achieved to launch an airport shuttle serving Schenectady, N.Y.’s hotels. The business took off, and continues to grow: It now serves former inmates in the area not only with assistance in getting to and from work, but helps them find work that will allow them to build their own lives of significance. What has his journey taught him? “I believe in my heart that from doing good you get good,” he says.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome, everybody, to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. You have clicked play, clicked subscribe, pushed the button, made your phone start playing audio on a podcast that deals in crucible experiences. Crucible experiences are those events in life that can change the trajectory of your life. They’re painful. They’re traumatic. You don’t know why they happen to you. They can leave you feeling sometimes like you just want to lie in bed and bury your head and not move on. They’re things that are failures, setbacks, traumas, tragedies, those kinds of things that just knock you off balance.
Gary S:
But here’s the good news. We talk about those things, not so we can wallow in them, not so we can stay there, but we talk about them so that we can look for ways to get beyond them. One of the things that we do is interview people who have had crucible experiences that were quite traumatic, that were quite a bit of a setback, that changed the course of their lives, but they have bounced back from those crucible experiences and they are now living a new and fulfilling chapter in their lives. Our purpose in talking to folks like our guest today, who we’ll introduce in just a moment, our purpose in doing that is to bring hope to listeners, no matter what your circumstances. If you’ve had a crucible, you can glean hope from the conversations we have here.
Gary S:
To guide that conversation, as always, is the architect, the founder, the Lego master, if you will, of the build that is Crucible Leadership, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we’ve got a good show today, I think, that’s really going to touch people.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Good to be here, Gary, and great to have Trent here.
Trent B:
Hey. How you guys doing?
Gary S:
It’s great to see you, Trent. I’m going to give you the introduction you deserve.
Gary S:
The Trent that Warwick referred to is Trent Griffin-Braaf. Trent is the 36-year-old husband and father of two, and Trent was released from prison more than a decade ago. He was locked up for more than three years for selling drugs. This is a quote that Trent gave to a media outlet in Schenectady, New York, where he lives. This is what he said about that experience. “I knew I didn’t want to go back to prison, and I was willing to do whatever I had to do not to do that,” he said.
Gary S:
After release, Trent took multiple low-wage temp jobs before getting into the hotel industry. He worked his way up from cleaner to general manager of a hotel in Rotterdam in New York. When he noticed no hotel in the area offered shuttle service to the airport, he saw a business opportunity. That’s how his business, his thriving business, I might say, Tech Valley Hospitality Shuttle, was born.
Gary S:
Trent, welcome to Beyond the Crucible. Warwick, take it away.
Trent B:
Hey, guys. Thank you for having me.
Warwick F:
Well, Trent, it’s great to have you. You have a remarkable story. I’d love to hear about your story, your background, growing up, and how that led to just the crucible experience that you had. Yeah, so tell us a bit about Trent and how you grew up, and yeah, a bit about your life there.
Trent B:
I was born in The Bronx, New York. At a young age, my father passed away, when I was around nine years old. Eight or nine. Yeah, nine years old. From that point, we moved from New York City to upstate New York. That’s where we had more family at.
Trent B:
It was tough. I went from having two parents to having just my mother by herself. In due time, we found out that my mother even had some demons she was fighting off with addiction, which even caused me for a short period of my life to be living with my grandparents. It was a lot of change.
Trent B:
Then even once my mother came back, we were struggling to get by. I was telling my wife recently, I remember sharing a room with my mother in my teenage years, sharing a bunk bed, to be more specific. It was a battle. One thing I can say is I never felt like we had without, though. My mother did a good job of making sure the love was there.
Trent B:
Another thing I knew was I definitely didn’t want to live in poverty my whole life, so I kind of became infatuated with money at a young age and I found creative ways to make money, even lunch money. My mother would give me lunch money. I would save it until I had enough to buy a pair of the jeans and clothes. I remember going to school every day and eating everybody else’s lunch, so that way I could save mine, selling candy bars and lollipops until we got a written letter saying I couldn’t do it anymore.
Trent B:
I was always infatuated with making money, and after high school, went to college, did a semester, flunked out, just playing around, and came back home. That’s when I got introduced to the underworld, I would say. Now I’m probably 18 years old or so, and I started to just hustle and sell drugs. Everyone that I seen who had a lot of money, that’s what they were doing, and it was attainable and something you could touch. You could talk to those people, and so I did. Quickly, I went from low-level selling of narcotics to higher level pretty quickly, almost like I had a mentorship program in that.
Trent B:
But that didn’t last long. Probably a year, year and a half run of that, and then I found myself incarcerated. Never had a run-in with the law before that in my life, but because of the amounts I was selling, I ended up getting a four to 12-year prison sentence. Here you got this 19-year-old, maybe 20-year-old kid at that time, who never had any problem with the law, was scared to death, because now I’m going to prison for four to 12 years, and all I could think about was 12 years just being gone.
Trent B:
So I go to prison. I quickly learn how to adapt in that environment, but one huge blessing I had was I was accepted into a college program through Marist College through the prison I was in. That was the first time in my adulthood that I seen I could really get good grades. I was the top of the class. I took pride in it, and I started to really have a passion for learning and education. That’s when I really started to read a lot more. I never, in prison, tried to make plans of what I was going to do next because I really didn’t know what challenges were in front of me, but I just knew that I wanted to prepare myself and be able to be the best version of me once I was released.
Trent B:
Oh, go ahead.
Warwick F:
Yeah, that’s a remarkable story. Take us back to your childhood, because obviously you’re married and have kids, and your kids, I’m sure, are growing up very differently than you grew up.
Trent B:
Definitely.
Warwick F:
They probably know something about how you grew up, but they can’t understand. They can’t relate. I’m sure you’re grateful that they can’t relate or understand, but I’m sure you’re trying to love them unconditionally, care for them, not just give them food and shelter, but emotional support, encouragement, “You can be whoever you want to be,” all of the things that any parent wants to do.
Warwick F:
Obviously, your dad died at a young age. He wasn’t able to provide a positive male role model. Your mother, I’m assuming, probably had a good heart, but with the drugs, it takes that out of the loop a bit. Talk about how you’re growing up, and did you have any positive role models, whether it’s mother, grandparents, cousins, somebody that gives you hope? Were there any positive role models there?
Trent B:
Definitely. I have a very tight-knit family, even to this day. My mother, she has four sisters. I know they all speak on a daily basis. The family group chats. My grandparents. My uncles. I had an uncle who passed away since, Uncle Odell, who I was really close with. My grandfather. Definitely had a lot of good role models.
Trent B:
Even my mother. Once she even got through her demons, I seen her climb in from an entry-level position to being a vice president of a company. I seen her go on to retire from the state as one of the top budget analysts. I’ve seen the growth even from that, and that was something I’ve always been able to pull from, was that strength. Again, I’m just blessed to have a very tight-knit family, even to this day. We’re not like a typical family. I can definitely say that.
Warwick F:
Wow. That’s wonderful. Through some of these challenges with losing your dad so young and a mother, good heart, but with, at the time, when you were small anyway, addiction problems, so talk about how you took a road that, in hindsight, probably wasn’t the most helpful road. There’s always a reason why. We could try and guess, but I don’t think we want to guess. Just tell us why you took that road that led to a lot of other challenges.
Trent B:
I think it was a mixture of things. For me, one, at a young age I was so motivated by money, I would do anything for it. Plus, not having a father figure there, I think just hanging out with the boys was the replacement. I would just, every day, hanging out with the guys, and that’s what we would do. I felt that love and that bond there, but definitely was not a good thing. It wasn’t good just because to even put the poison in the community and to just be bringing that negativity around, but even bigger than that, it just wasn’t good in terms of a setback.
Trent B:
Unfortunately, you could make decisions at a young age that can alter the course of your life, and that’s ultimately what I did. I put myself in that position that few rarely come out and turn into a success story from. Going to prison, more specifically, does it because then you have this criminal record, that even though you do some time, and your life is paused, but the world continues to grow and go, but even upon being released, they still hold it against you. It’s just a huge setback that if I could… I tell the youth all the time, “Learn from my mistakes and from mistakes of others. That’s a path you don’t want to take, because it is very hard to get out of.”
Warwick F:
Yeah, and I know in some states, they talk about three strikes, but I guess in some ways it’s really one strike, that for a lot of employers and a lot of people, it’s like, “Once a criminal, always a criminal.” “No, but really I’ve rehabilitated.” “We don’t want to take a chance. Stay away.” There’s that attitude, which is often not fair.
Warwick F:
Sadly, this is probably a familiar story in some ways, is that maybe you had some good relatives, but the person who’s in the home day in, day out, your dad wasn’t there, and you’re hanging out with your buddies, which, in the neighborhood, probably weren’t constructive. You want love and affirmation from somewhere, and it’s like part of being part of this group is maybe doing things that are not helpful, but I’m sure you can look back and see it. I don’t know, some people would say, “Well, it’s probably kind of inevitable in some ways, if you want to get affirmation from somewhere.” I don’t know, I can’t really think of a particularly good question here, other than… Please, go ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
I’ve got something I think is interesting. Trent, we’ve had eight to 10 folks that we’ve talked to on the podcast so far, and each of them has a crucible experience or experiences that they talk about. One of the things that strikes me about your story is how many crucible experiences came in such rapid succession. Your father passes away. Your mother has addiction problems. You have to move from where you’re from to a different city. You live with your grandparents. I read in a story that you really loved basketball, but as you put it, you stopped growing at some point too soon, and you couldn’t pursue that dream. Then you needed money, and you took a wrong turn and you end up in prison.
Gary S:
For listeners out there, I really want to key in on this, because listeners who may feel like the crucibles have never stopped coming, they keep coming, they’ve come over and over again, and I just listed off six or seven of them for you before you were out of high school or before you were out of college, before you were in your 20s, I want listeners to be able to hear you say this, so that they can find hope themselves if they’re like, “I’m done.” If ever a series of crucibles, in any guest that we’ve talked to, if ever a series of crucibles was going to be “Okay, I’m done. I can’t do this. I keep running into brick walls no matter what I do. I’m going to give up,” why didn’t Trent give up?
Trent B:
Well, I didn’t give up. A, I’m not a quitter, and in anything I do, I want to see it out. But I didn’t give up because I knew I wanted more for myself. I remember being inside the prison and talking to gentlemen who… I was a baby. They looked at me as the young pup. I remember being around some older gentlemen who… They were never coming home from prison, or there were others who were on this consistent roller coaster coming in and out. My very first day in the prison, we were walking in the tunnels, and I remember the captain said… He made an announcement, and he said he wanted to thank us for being there. He said it was because of us that his children were able to go through college and he was able to pay his mortgage, and he could guarantee that he’ll see a bunch of us continuously throughout his life and our lives.
Trent B:
That never sat well with me. I knew statistically he was right, but I didn’t want to be a part of that statistic to continue to put his family through college and to make sure his mortgage was paid. I’d rather have those problems of my own and be able to do that for my family. I was just motivated to not be stuck on that consistent path, and I was really literally at one point just at my wits’ end and said, “No matter what I have to do, I won’t put myself in a situation where that can be a reality of me returning.”
Warwick F:
What’s interesting to me is often I find when people turn from a crucible experience, they make a decision. They make a choice. Now, you could’ve said, which I think would be quite justified, “Hey, a lot of this is not my fault. Not my fault that my dad died. I grew up in a neighborhood where, to hang out with any kind of buddies, many of them aren’t going to be on the right track. Was that my fault? I wanted money to get out of there. What other options are there? Not too many. I go to prison. People are going to see me as this criminal forever.”
Warwick F:
You could go into “This is not my fault. It’s not fair,” and be angry. “Why should I try? Because life in the world continues to work against me.” Yet life doesn’t have to be fair for you to say, “Yeah, it wasn’t fair. A lot of things weren’t right, but I’m going to move on. I’m not going to get anger and resentment stop me from moving on.” Talk about how you decided not to say everything was fine and okay, but not let resentment, anger pull you down and say, “I’m not going to let that pull me down. I’m going to move forward.” How did you get off that resentment bandwagon and get into “I’m moving forward”?
Trent B:
Oh, I remember clearly. I don’t know the date, but I remember clearly talking to a buddy of mine and I just told him, I said… Even upon being released and coming back, I was still taking some risks that could’ve landed me back in jail, just chasing fast money. But I remember specifically one day talking to a buddy of mine, and I said, “Bro, I’m not ever going to sell drugs again. I don’t care what I’ve got to do. I’m never, ever doing this again. I can’t.” Literally, from that day, I never did, and that was never, ever again.What got me to that point was the scare of a long-term incarceration. That’s literally what got me together, by seeing individuals that I know, who I was actually incarcerated with, come home around the same time I did and then go back for 10, 12-year sentences. I couldn’t do it.
Trent B:
The ironic thing is it’s two different worlds, like you said. In one world, you’re crucified for this. For going to jail, you can’t get a job. But then in another world, you’re glorified, because you went to prison and you didn’t tell on anybody. It’s a weird mixture, but I had to disassociate myself from that and being that prideful guy of “Yeah, I didn’t. Look at me,” and have my chest out, and really humble myself to the point where, you know what, I’m willing to take these temp jobs and do whatever I have to do. That actually began the next stage of my life, was removing myself from other negativity, humbling myself to the maximum, and taking these temp jobs, taking jobs where I’m making literally minimum wage, I’m working all day long, but going there every single day and working as hard as I possibly could and putting my best foot forward.
Gary S:
That’s a great pivot point. That’s when things turned around for you. But one of the things I read in one of the stories that I looked at, Trent, which really fascinated me, there was a story that said what really helped you in that turning point was that your first daughter was on the way and you missed her birth. I want listeners to hear… Normally, what Warwick and I will do, because we’re both obsessive about this, if there’s any background noise at all when we’re recording, we’ll tell the producers on the back end, “Take that out. There’s a hum in the radiator.” But as we’ve been talking, it’s been beautiful because I hear your family sitting around having conversation, and I hope we don’t take that out, because that family was the thing that led to that turnaround that you just described, where you said, “I will take these jobs because I’m going to create a life, not just for me, but for my family.” Does that strike a chord with you, Warwick, as you hear that?
Warwick F:
Yeah. Trent, I’d love to hear the role that your family, and while you were in prison, just talk about that fact when helping you bounce back and give you motivation.
Trent B:
Two things happened in prison that changed my life forever, one being I lost my grandmother. While I was serving that four to 12-year sentence, I lost my grandmother. I had a conversation with her the night before she passed. She told me she was dying, and it was hard. But going to the funeral with my hands and my feet shackled, seeing my family like that and not even really being able to hold them the way we normally would and embrace each other, that was heartbreaking. That was literally heartbreaking for me.
Trent B:
Then the second was, like you were saying, Gary, I had missed my oldest daughter’s birth, because during that time before the transaction, before I said I’m never doing this again, I found myself rearrested and fighting a new case, which ultimately was thrown out for illegal search and seizure. But during that time, my daughter was born. I got incarcerated a month before my wife had her, so I missed that. I got her name tattooed across my chest right here. She’s the only one, and that’s the reason why.
Trent B:
Yeah, those two things just told me, “This can’t be my life. I can’t allow this to be my life. I’m not going to miss out on my children’s lives.” Sometimes me and my wife, we reflect on that. My oldest daughter today is 11 years old. She’ll be 12 next month. If I didn’t beat that case, they were offering me 12 years. Ultimately, I would just be coming home right around now. Our life today would be nonexistent. The company would be nonexistent.
Trent B:
We actually have three daughters. The youngest, she’s 18 months. That’s probably why you didn’t see it in the other stuff. I wouldn’t even have my other two daughters if I would’ve continued to possibly gamble my life in those ways. The big thing I realized was my motivation was money, but life is more important than money. That was a pivot point, and it was the point of no return at that point.
Warwick F:
I imagine as you’re going through this, being in chains at your grandmother’s funeral and then missing your oldest daughter’s birthday, you probably thought, “Well, I know what it’s like to grow up without a dad,” and you probably said to yourself, “That’s not going to be my kids. I’m going to be there for them. I’m going to help them learn to ride a bike, be there at their recitals, be there at their football, baseball games. I’m going to help coach. I’m going to be present. When they said, ‘Hey, a kid beat me up at school’ or ‘I got a bad grade,’ I’m going to be there to console them, to advise them, to say, ‘Hey, that’s okay. Tomorrow is another day.’ I’m going to be there.” That had to have been a huge motivation, saying, “My kids will grow up differently than I did,” right?
Trent B:
Definitely. 100%. Me and my wife, we talk about it. We have similar upbringings in terms of single-family households, and one thing we are both fully committed to is assuring that we have a family, because that’s one thing we both felt we didn’t have in the household. I couldn’t agree more.
Warwick F:
I want to just shift a bit to what you’re doing professionally. One of the amazing things, you started work in cleaning and eventually working up to being general manager of a hotel, which that in itself just feels like a miracle, given where you grew up and prison and all. But there are some people, again, that have this attitude of “The world owes me. I didn’t deserve to lose a dad or to have a mother that at some point had addiction issues.” Yet you felt like, “Hey, I will do whatever it takes, no matter how low the job is.” It feels like there’s a sense of humility in your story, “I don’t care whether life is fair or not fair. I’m going to do whatever it takes, no matter how humbling or even humiliating.” A lot of people need to hear that, as they might feel like the world owes them or “I’m too good for…” Talk about your attitude as you started to work your way up.
Trent B:
The attitude, again, it was humble. I did have to humble myself completely. I was someone who was known for being kind of flashy, having nice cars, jewelry, girls, stuff like that. Once I made that decision and dove fully into “I’m never going to do this again, and I’m going to do whatever it takes to be successful just working hard,” that’s what it became. I actually isolated myself from everyone.
Trent B:
In the midst of all of this that was going on, as I was transitioning at working and scrubbing toilets by day working in the hotels, at night I was actually throwing parties. I would throw these big concert series in different venues. I was actually exploring my entrepreneur spirit at that point, but socially distancing myself from everyone at the same time. I would do this. Not too many people even knew who was throwing these parties. I wasn’t out social about it, but I was starting to build a reputation and a brand for myself in the club world, club scene, in terms of the owners. But at work, I was humbling myself enough to clean those toilets every single day.
Trent B:
There was some nights… I remember there was a night I made like $23,000 doing an after-party with Kevin Hart, but then the very next day, here I am scrubbing toilets in a hotel, being told if I could bring someone coffee. I really learned to humble myself to the highest level during this transition. The one thing that I was more so focused on was being the best form of me at every single thing I did. So-
Gary S:
And-
Trent B:
Go right ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
One of the ways that you did that, when you and I talked earlier, is that, yes, you started out scrubbing toilets, but when you were finished scrubbing toilets, what did you do? You were out talking to the front desk clerk. You were learning as much as you could about that business, right?
Trent B:
That’s right. In everything I did, I started to always just continue to learn. I think that college in prison started that for me. I would go to work. I would work with the front desk staff at night, and she would train me on how to check people in, how to answer the phones. I would come home, if I wasn’t throwing an event, and me and my wife, she would be studying me on the language. How do you check someone in? What’s the proper way to do it? That way, I was preparing myself for the opportunity, and the opportunity came.
Trent B:
I was given the opportunity to be a front desk clerk for the Marriott. Once I got that role, I started to aim on, how do you be a good manager? I started to read books on management. My wife would teach me different management skills. Next thing you know, I get that position. Now I’m the front desk manager. I’m rocking and rolling. The next thing was, how do I become the assistant manager of the hotel? I start to educate myself on that, and all the way until I’m the operations manager.
Trent B:
But every single night, I’m going home, I’m learning the language, I’m learning what a P&L is, I’m learning… I was self-taught every single step of the way, but I was also hands-on every single step of the way. I think I got the best kind of practice you could possibly get, and that’s something I encourage everyone I talk to, “When you go to work, there’s opportunities in front of you. It’s what do you want, and what are you willing to do?” I think the more you learn to give of yourself, the opportunities are given to you that you’re looking for.
Trent B:
That became my approach, was just to stay two steps ahead in everything I was doing and to have goals. Once I started to see if you have goals, you can actually achieve your goals, or if you don’t achieve them, get really close to achieving them, that became my new way of life.
Warwick F:
There’s a few strands I think it would be really useful for listeners to understand. There are three words I think I’ve heard you say, the importance of humility, the importance of learning, and the importance of having goals. My sense is they’re tied together, so talk a bit about just why, in terms of bouncing back from just some incredibly difficult circumstances, why humility and a heart to learn is so important.
Trent B:
Well, I think you have to humble yourself to understand you don’t know everything, and humble yourself to be willing to tell and express that to other individuals, and then not only tell it, but then listening to the advice given and act on the advice given. It’s a lot of steps in admitting you don’t know something, but I think the sooner people start to admit that, the sooner you also start to grow. I think you have to humble yourself, you have to be willing to accept advice from others, and you have to be willing to work on it if it’s ultimately what you want to do. Like you said, they definitely go hand in hand.
Warwick F:
One of the interesting things in life is there are some people that are jealous of your success. If somebody is down, they want to push them even further. But there are other… Humanity is a mix of good and bad, and there are some people, more than one would think, that when you humble yourself and say, “Look, I don’t really understand this. What does it take to be an assistant manager? What does it take to be a general manager?” there are some people who probably said, “Trent, thanks for asking. I’d love to help you.” You’re probably thinking, “Really? Somebody in the world wants to help me? Wow, that’s kind of new. Cool.”
Trent B:
You are-
Warwick F:
Go ahead.
Trent B:
No, I was going to say you are so right. That’s what I try to express when I talk to a lot of the youth, and even formerly incarcerated individuals. People who have seen any bit of success want to share that. It’s just a matter of them knowing that the person is really going to act on what they’re sharing and they’re not wasting their time. But if you’re able to prove that you’re willing to do what it takes, I find that anyone who’s successful, if you ask them, “Hey, how’d you do it?” who doesn’t want to share how they did it and hopefully help someone through their story?
Warwick F:
Because part of the American dream is clawing your way up from nothing or not much. There’s something in the American spirit that when somebody says, “Hey, I’d like to be successful. Can you help me?” there are a bunch of people that say, “Well, of course.” That’s America at its best, is helping people be successful. I’m from Australia originally. Every country has its positives and negatives.
Warwick F:
Talk a bit about how you went from being in hotels and you had this vision, this dream of shuttles and hospitality, and tie that in with goals, because goal-setting is so important. I don’t know how many people there are that have grown up the way you have that are not just humble and willing to learn, but set goals. It’s like, “Goals? My goal is to eat. What are you talking about? A roof over my head. Goals in business? Come on, what are you talking about here, Trent?” Talk about how you went from this hospitality and hotel, and you had this vision, you had this goal. How did that come about, this whole idea for shuttles and hospitality?
Trent B:
The whole idea for the shuttle and the hospitality just came about just from seeing a need. I sat on the Schenectady Hospitality Board at the time, and we would always joke about how bad the taxi service was, and we had a casino coming. I said in one of the meetings, half-jokingly but half not, “So what if I had a shuttle service? Would you guys utilize it for your hotels to bring people to the airports or the casino?” People in the room were like, “Yeah, we would, definitely, Trent. We know you. Why wouldn’t we use it?” That’s literally what sparked it for me like, “All right.”
Trent B:
I went to the drawing board and started to put it together and put my business plan together, and we built it up. We identified that there was definitely a need, and being that we had a couple of hotels that were willing to give us a shot, I said the worst that could happen is we go under and I still become a GM somewhere. Actually, the original goal was for me to continue to be the GM of the hotel and run the business at the same time, but things quickly took a turn from that. We learned how to pivot quickly in business, as well as it’s also just shown me in life how we have to be open with what’s going on right now and be willing to live with it and understand we’ve got to let go and let God in a lot of circumstances.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah, I want to talk about current circumstances here in a minute. You had this vision that the shuttles for some of these hotels weren’t that great, and you could provide a business partnering with the hotels. That was a gap in the market, right?
Trent B:
Yeah, that’s right.
Warwick F:
How did you convince the hotels to partner with you and “We can do this”? You’ve got to raise funds to get… How many shuttles do you have now?
Trent B:
Today, we’re up to 10.
Gary S:
Oh my goodness.
Warwick F:
Wow. That’s amazing. How did you go from just an idea, convince the hotels, to partner with them, get some funding? How’d that all happen?
Trent B:
I started working on the business plan. I actually went to a community-based organization to help me on my business plan, being I never did one. I got the business plan going. From the business plan, financing, only thing I really did was I bet on myself. Me and my wife, we had a conversation, and I said, “Babe, if I went to college, odds are I would have about a $50,000 tuition bill right now that would be due.” I said, “If I invest this same amount of money in myself right now, there’s a good chance that we could make more money. We’re already in the world.” Like I was saying, I was selling her on “Hey, I got the money from the job anyway. If it doesn’t work, it just doesn’t work. We lose whatever investment we make with the car.”
Trent B:
So I gambled on myself, and I took a shot. This is pre-Uber, Lyft. The taxis were terrible. I went for it and got six hotels from jump to say they would use us. This was in February we went live, the same day as the new casino. Business was booming. The phone would not stop ringing. It was just pandemonium. I was excited. We were doing great. Then in June, Uber and Lyft came, and the phone stopped ringing completely. Now we’re seven months in to the business. Well, February was when we went live, so really we were four months in, but I established it in December.
Trent B:
It became a moment of “Hey, Trent, I could stay in the hotel.” The owners of the hotel didn’t want me to leave. They wanted me to stay. It became “Well, I could stay and just wrap up shop, and we had a good run. Or do I really want to see this thing out?” I decided I wanted to see it out.
Trent B:
So we transitioned to just having bigger vehicles during that time. I started focusing on getting buses, vans, things that Uber and Lyft couldn’t do in the moment. Then what I made our relationships with the hotel look like was, instead of airport shuttles all of the time, what we wanted to focus on was corporate groups, corporate outings, corporate transportation to work, as well as weddings, because a lot of wedding parties come to hotels in the summer months. That’s exactly what we did.
Trent B:
We partnered with a bunch of these hotels. We went from that six to nine hotels to today we work with over 50 hotels. It definitely took off. Now we actually do transportation for school districts, so we have some school buses. We have a party bus. We do a lot with weddings. We work with wedding venues, specifically. We partner with them. But what we’ve transitioned to as of late has been workforce transportation, helping individuals get to and from work.
Warwick F:
One of the things I think it’s really helpful for listeners to hear what Trent is saying, because there’ll be a number of listeners that have small businesses, and inevitably in any business you’ll face obstacles, but yet, I think as we said earlier, you saw the obstacle as an opportunity. It’s like, “Okay, I’m not going to let this get me down. Okay, Uber and Lyft has come. There’s always going to be changes in the market. Okay, so how do I respond?” You saw that there was a gap in the market by having bigger shuttle buses with wedding parties, corporate groups. You didn’t let that say, “Okay, game over. How do I compete against Uber and Lyft? I can’t.” You said, “Okay, let’s retool. Let’s refocus.”
Warwick F:
For any small business owner, you don’t give up. You say, “Okay, one avenue of revenue may have stopped, but let’s think of others.” You had this creative, never say die, “Okay, let’s keep at it.” If you’re a small business owner, learn from what Trent is saying. There is really valuable input. Go ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
Trent, I want to ask you about one aspect of the business that you talked to me about offline, because early on in this conversation, you mentioned that you were motivated by money. That was one of the things that led you into selling drugs, that having money when you didn’t have it was kind of a thing for you. It was a lure for you. Now you’ve got a business that’s successful, and one of the things that you’re doing, and I want you to talk about it in a second in detail, is offering rides in that transportation area to work with some folks who used to be incarcerated, like you were. I think what that speaks to is you are living now a life of significance. You’ve discovered significance.
Gary S:
I think if I ask you this question, I know what your answer is going to be, but I’m going to ask it anyway so the listener can hear it. You’ve chased money. You’ve chased significance. What’s more important to you? What’s more meaningful in the long run?
Trent B:
Definitely, significance. Definitely. Hands down. Even to this day, I have a successful company. I was still more liquid when I was doing things in the street than I am to this day, but I definitely wasn’t living the life that I’m living to this day. I didn’t have this beautiful home. I own multiple homes now. I had to learn finance, too, to be honest with yourself and learn the importance of credit and all sorts of things like that.
Trent B:
At this point, I look at money as almost… It’s a necessity for life, but like I was telling my brother the other day, the main thing money gives you is just options, I think, and allows you to take advantage of opportunities. We were speaking more so to… I was just telling him we booked a couple of vacations for the family for next year and the year out, three trips, and I told him how great of a deal it was. But as I explained to him, I said, “That’s the only difference. Money allows you to take advantage of opportunity.”
Trent B:
For me, that doesn’t move me anymore. I’m more so moved on legacy and being able to… I want my name to mean something when I’m gone. I want my children, every time they look at me, I want them to think of me as a superhero almost, and that doesn’t come from money. That comes from teaching them the intangibles, anything is possible, and instilling in them the things that I’ve learned over the years, and so that way, they don’t have to take the same paths, but they could get a little cheat in life and have a better start.
Trent B:
Definitely, money is going to be made. They print new money every day. Deals are made every day. I think it’s to be expected, if you want to go make some money, you can go out there and make it. I don’t think money is the end-all, be-all like I once did.
Warwick F:
I think we’re about to touch on it, but when you talk about significance and legacy, and I want to hear some more detail, you’ve used your whole shuttle bus service, in a way, to give back to those who’ve had some challenges like yourself. Just talk a bit more about how you’ve used that to help others.
Trent B:
What I identified when I was working in the temp agencies was a lot of individuals on parole, the biggest issue we faced was we had to take public transportation. So I joined some boards to gain some knowledge, and one of the local boards I sit on is the capital region’s transportation committee. Basically, on that board, we discuss the public transportation in the capital region of New York State. They’ve been able to help me to identify that those who rely on the bus, 20 minutes on a bus in comparison to 20 minutes in your car where we live is night or day. In a bus 20 minutes, they’re still in the same typical area, but in a car, you can actually drive yourself to an area where you could have a job making $20 or better an hour.
Trent B:
What I started to do was realize there’s industries that are in these areas, and I would imagine they need bodies. One of the biggest problems is there was no transportation that could connect the bodies to these industries. What I’ve done is I’ve gone into a lot of these, what are they, distribution centers and I’ve been able to try to educate them on the benefits of hiring ex-offenders, A, the tax breaks that they get, but then on top of it, helping them to understand that if you give an individual a chance, that’s all they’re really looking for. These guys and young ladies will work their tails off because all they wanted was this opportunity to have a livable wage, and now they have it.
Trent B:
So we started to actually transport people to and from these locations, and it’s been highly successful. I have a lot of companies reaching out to see how they can get involved, if I can work with their company. I work with the Department of Labor to help expand what they’re able to do. It’s just been really, really great. We did a job fair right before the corona thing took off, and we were able to help 30 individuals who just came home from prison get jobs making $20 an hour.
Gary S:
That’s fantastic.
Trent B:
That’s what I said. I felt good. Then another thing we started to do was, last Mother’s Day, we did a free shuttle to the women’s prison, because I just had the idea of how important visits were for me, and I was blessed to get a visit literally every weekend. So we did a free shuttle for individuals who might want to go and visit an incarcerated mother in prison. It was highly successful.
Trent B:
But then with that, I started to look into what options there was for prison transportation, because I was like, “That speaks directly to me.” I started to do a lot more research and I started to find out recidivism rates drop by visits, and how most offenders end up over 100 miles from where the crime took place. Most of these individuals come from poverty, meaning to get 100 miles is tough for a lot of people if you could barely pay your bills. So I started to put these things together, and I put a service in place in upstate New York where we’ve been able to help individuals go from 20 hours’ commute time in the state of New York, plus over $200 a trip, to we’ve made the price points affordable. $50, $60, $70, $80 is the most we charge for a person to go visit a loved one in prison. Then, once a month, we actually do a free prison shuttle service for the community, where we identify just one specific prison and anyone could go for free. We’ve been doing that since the beginning of this year, and that’s been really, really great just to help individuals.
Trent B:
Now we’re starting to get a little steam behind it, so we’re getting organizations that want to actually help educate the families on what resources are out here. I’m starting to get more businesses in line, also, to the places that we actually work with and partner with, so we can start to educate people, “Hey, not only can we’ll get you to the prison for free, but the big thing is there’s resources out here to help your loved ones and help you. We also can help if you guys need an actual job or if they need employment when they come home, which they will.” It’s come, definitely, a 180. A lot of the problems that I lived through, I’m blessed to now be able to help others get through those same situations a little easier.
Warwick F:
That’s what I was saying. I want to talk a little about legacy in a second, because I know our time is coming to a close. You’ve got former inmates. You’ve got loved ones of inmates. Talk about the feedback you get from them. You’re making a life-changing difference. What feedback do you get from these former inmates and family members of what you’re doing for their lives?
Trent B:
Man, that’s some of the best stuff. Honestly, I don’t feel anything but love from anyone, let it be people who read about me in the newspaper to people’s lives that we touch like that. It seems like wherever I go, it’s just people are just showing me so much love and appreciation for what I’m doing. I hear it all the time, like, “Hey, I wouldn’t have been able to go see my mother” or “Hey, we got these guys who they’re just really thankful to have this new source of income.”
Trent B:
What I’ve been doing, too, on top of that is I’ve used my platform to now go to local banks, and I have them partner with us. The goal is to try to help these individuals who take the shuttle service, within eight months, also educate them on how to have a budget, live off a budget, save their money so they can buy a car, so then they can expand their options from there. I don’t want them to become reliant on anything we’re doing. The goal is to continually just help and just push us forward.
Trent B:
Yeah, so legacy, I feel it when I go outside. People are just so passionate about giving me thanks, and I love it.
Warwick F:
As I think about legacy, summarizing this, you grew up in a very tough upbringing, neighborhood, father dying young, mother, addiction issues, prison, but the legacy you’re leaving for your kids, for those you come in touch with, former inmates, family members, the community, it’s a very different legacy. It’s a legacy of pulling yourself up, making different choices, loving your kids, your wife, caring for those in need. You’re somebody that your kids, I’m sure, are very proud of-
Trent B:
I hope so.
Warwick F:
… that they can say, “You know what, this is who my dad is.” It’s remarkable. It’s a miracle. I’m sure they say to their friends, I don’t know if your daughters say it to you, but “You know what, in some sense, I’d like to be kind of like my dad, because he is a role model.” I’m sure there are other people that know you who say, “You know what, Trent, I want to be somebody like that, that sets goals, yes, provides a comfortable life for their family and vacations, but gives back, helps the community. Trent is somebody. Now, that’s a role model. That’s somebody that you want to be like.”
Warwick F:
If that’s your legacy, which I feel like maybe it is, when all is said and done, that’s not a bad legacy, right? To give to people? Isn’t that a legacy that you can be proud of, and you think hopefully your kids can be proud of?
Trent B:
Yeah, 100%. That’s just to show you how you can easily go 180. I was the kid that would do anything for money, but like you said, now it’s more so “How do you help? How do you give back?” That’s why our call was delayed. Right now, we’re actually delivering groceries for families that just are in need. Me and my daughter, we were out at my office just doing some work in there cleaning up and got the call, so I just shot over and brought a family some groceries. That’s literally the legacy. How can we help? How can we be of service? My thing is, the more lives you touch, the more you could be of service to others, I just know good things are going to come, and that’s all a part of legacy.
Warwick F:
I should ask real quick… Sorry, Gary. I’d be remiss of saying, how are you handling the whole coronavirus with your business? Is that impacting you a lot? That’s a huge obstacle that’s affecting the whole planet.
Trent B:
Definitely. We’ve lost a lot of revenue, conferences, weddings. We do daily services with Amtrak that we had to stop doing. We lost a lot of business. I did have to make some tough decisions and lay some off. I’ve been able to keep some individuals on. Even the individuals we keep on, it’s more so just for the giving at this point. But at the same time, I believe in my heart that from doing good, you get good. If we keep doing good things, I think these will create new relationships, which in the future will create new opportunities. So let’s just continue to help out at this time and do whatever we can for the community, and the community will take care of us.
Gary S:
Well, this is, as I say on every episode… I’m going to say it differently this time, though. This is the time that we normally say, “It’s time to land the plane.” But given what we’re talking about, let’s put on the parking brake instead of land the plane, and let’s wrap up our discussion on that point.
Gary S:
A couple things. One, Trent, you are a very humble man. You’ve talked about that here. I’m a PR guy, so I don’t have to be humble about you, and I can point out to our listeners that you were recently named one of the top 40 business people in Schenectady under 40, so congratulations for that well-deserved recognition.
Trent B:
Thank you very much.
Gary S:
I also want to encourage listeners, we have a YouTube channel. Crucible Leadership has a YouTube channel. If you’ve listened to this on a podcast app, I encourage you to watch it and listen to it on YouTube if you can do that again. Here’s why. I want you to see Trent’s face, as we can do as we’re recording this, when he talks about significance, when he talks about legacy, when he talks about the reactions he gets from the people he helps. The smile on his face lights up this room, lights up this screen. This is a man who not only loves what he does, but he loves the folks that he’s touching. That is something I think, for all of us who’ve been through crucible experiences, to see that can help us have the courage, have the ability to take the next step forward.
Gary S:
There’s a few things, I think, as we do close here, I want to leave listeners with. The first one is this idea that money is great, money is fine, money does make the world go around to some extent, everybody needs it, but where those smiles showed up most on Trent’s face was when he was talking about significance. The idea that a man who was so focused on money and flash, his own word, is now so focused on helping others is a beautiful thing. That’s available to all of us. Please process that and live that, listener.
Gary S:
Second thing that Trent said in every communication I’ve had with him, he has said this. He said it several times here. One key to overcoming your crucible experiences and getting on a path to a life of significance is simply don’t ever give up. Know that there’s something out there. Regardless of what circumstance you’re in right now, find something, grab something out there that you want more. It doesn’t have to be as dramatic as prison, and you want to live a “normal” and fulfilling life out of it. It can be something far, far less dire and far more simple. Whatever your crucible is, find that thing that gives you hope and grab it and go for it. That’s the second point.
Gary S:
The third point, I think, is interesting here. In real estate, they tell you the first rule of real estate is… There’s three rules of real estate, location, location, location. One of the things that Trent has said throughout this conversation is that there are three elements to overcoming your crucible experience and bouncing back, and that is learn, learn, learn. He dedicated himself to learning, whether it was a formal education program while in prison, whether it was running from scrubbing toilets to going and talking to the front desk clerk in that hotel, to coming home and his wife teaching him and they’re talking about things about business. He learned every step of the way. You can learn yourself through a crucible. That is a crucial thing to hang on to for everybody.
Gary S:
Then the last thing, as you’re doing that, as you are learning, set goals. As you’re learning, set the goals of what your learning is going to bring you to. Trent did that. Trent is living out those goals. Even though things right now in the time that we’re having this conversation have created some other crucibles, he’s pushing through that with confidence, with hope, and I just looked at him on the screen, if you’re watching it on YouTube, and a smile. That’s the kind of thing that we need.
Gary S:
All of you, thank you for joining us on this episode, this truly special episode of Beyond the Crucible. Thank you, Trent, for being here with us.
Gary S:
I encourage you, listener, if you want to help us out, if you want to do a favor for us, so that stories like Trent’s can get told and more people can get inspired by them, on the app that you’re listening to this right now, click subscribe. Share this link with other people, so that the kind of hope that’s being offered here to help people get beyond their crucibles can be put into the earbuds, if you will, of more and more people. You can do that by visiting us at crucibleleadership.com. You can find out more information. But you can simply click subscribe on the app that you’re listening to right now.
Gary S:
If you want to know more about us, as I said, you can visit crucibleleadership.com. Warwick has a blog. We have some other resources there that can be helpful to you.
Gary S:
Until the next time that we’re all together here on Beyond the Crucible, we encourage you to remember what Trent’s life has proven, that those times of crucibles can feel like the worst times in your life, they can knock you off your feet, they can knock you down, you can feel like you don’t want to get up, but if you get up and if you dedicate yourself to learning the lessons of your crucible, those crucible moments can be far, far more than the end of your story. They can be the start of a new chapter in a new story that will lead you to exactly where Trent just told us for the last hour he has gotten to, a life of significance, and that’s a beautiful thing. Thanks for being here.
As general manager of Major League Baseball’s Cincinnati Reds, Brad Kullman was living his childhood dream of making a living, and a life, in the game he loved. But after being passed over for permanent promotions and finally being let go, he moved past the devastation to realize he was free to pursue a passion that had become even more important to him: using the analytical tools he had pioneered as a pro sports scout and executive to help everyday men and women unlock the insights of their hardwired makeup. In this interview with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax, Kullman explains how standard personality tests offer insufficient help in charting a course to a life of significance for those who experience crucibles, and offers insights and resources to help listeners understand and apply the realities of how they’re wired.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Hi everybody, I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of Beyond the Crucible and I’m welcoming you here to our podcast today. I’m the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership and just want to tell you a little bit about the podcast that you dropped in on. We talk here about crucible experiences, those moments in life that can feel, well, they can feel like life maybe over. It can feel like life has stopped. It can feel like life has changed course like a river changes course in a natural disaster. But the reason that we talk about these crucible experiences, these failures, these setbacks, these traumas and these tragedies is not to dwell on the negative, is not to live in the past, is not to wallow in things that have happened to us that have been painful. We talk about these experiences because we want to offer hope and healing to people who’ve experienced them so that you can begin to move beyond it, as the title of the podcast says, and you can embrace the lessons of your crucible and you can chart a course for a life of significance.
Gary S:
All of this discussion, this whole plan for how you face a crucible experience head on and move beyond it, came from our founder Warwick Fairfax, who has experienced some of these moments himself and who is living a life of significance now beyond his crucible, and Warwick, thank you for being here today. This is going to be a very interesting episode I think.
Warwick F:
Well thanks, Gary, for introducing us and thanks so much, Brad, for being here. I look forward to a great discussion.
Gary S:
Brad is our guest. That is Brad Kullman. Brad is the founder and president of Max Q Performance, and I’m just going to give you a little bit about who Brad is. This is Brad’s bio. Extremely impressive. Brad’s a human performance specialist who has studied the brain and biomechanics for more than 25 years. In a three decade major league baseball career, he served as a high ranking executive and scout, including appointments as the interim general manager for the Cincinnati Reds on two separate occasions. As assistant general manager for the Reds, he directed the first formal R&D department, that’s research and development, in major league baseball, focusing on advances in assessing athletic potential and related development. All of that experience led him to his current career as founder and president of Max Q Performance.
Gary S:
Max Q Performance is the culmination of more than a decade of intense study and research and understanding the innate hardwired designs of people. The Max Q process delves deeply beneath the surface level symptoms of persona in order to analyze root causation, thereby creating a framework for a meaningful and substantive solution based on a person’s true indelible makeup. Brad, welcome to Beyond the Crucible.
Brad K:
Thank you for having me guys.
Warwick F:
Well, Brad again, thanks again. So a good place to start is really Beyond the Crucible. We love to hear your story and in particular your crucible moment. Could be a failure, setback. It’s typically a searing experience, and then we get onto how you got beyond that to live a life of significance, a life on purpose, serving others. But just kind of start us out with your story and your crucible moment and yeah.
Brad K:
Well, it’s a long story, but I’ll give you the Reader’s Digest version. I loved baseball. I wanted to be a baseball player when I was young, and as I got into high school I realized that if I was going to make it to the major leagues, it was probably going to be on the front office side rather than the field. So I started exploring avenues and as I got into it, I went to Ohio State, got my master’s in sports management and ended up working in the minor leagues for a few years. That was right around the time when statistics were starting to be more and more involved, and I ended up getting hired by the Cincinnati Reds and I was at the forefront of the statistical revolution, as in the late nineties increased computing power allowed us to assess performance at a much deeper level, what we call today is being routinely called analytics.
Brad K:
And so I was at the forefront of that and I worked my way up, worked hard. 12 years with the organization, never received a review from my superiors below excellent. Always got the highest grades in everything I did. They fired my boss at one point, named me interim GM and I was told I was going to be interviewed as part of the possible replacements full time, and as it came about, that was not accurate. They brought in somebody from outside the organization, didn’t even give me a chance, but I stuck with it and a couple years later they fired that guy. Made me interim GM a second time and told me once again, “You’re going to be interviewed and have a chance at this.” So I prepared all this stuff for my interview and it was a new owner that had bought the team and that’s the way things go in sports. Whoever owns the team makes the decisions. And even though as we get into detailed analysis performance with analytics for players at the highest levels of management it’s still very subjective exercise.
Brad K:
Once again, I was given a courtesy interview that was really a sham. I didn’t think, they didn’t really give me a chance to sell myself and obviously my performance had shown enough that they had me take over the organization twice during the interim and I was not real happy about that. But they went outside the organization, brought in another guy and he basically wanted to bring in some of his own people and so I was let go unceremoniously with a few other people and my lifelong … it’d been my lifelong dream. It’s what I’ve worked for for years, had done a good job and then to just be let go like that was difficult but you know, it wasn’t really probably a surprise. In some ways it was a relief, I think, because I’m not a quitter. I wouldn’t have quit because of that. I would have stuck it out, I’m sure, and been unhappy, but it allowed me to really take a step back.
Brad K:
And the interesting thing, Warwick, is what I was prepared to do was I was prepared to sell my family for this job as general manager of the Cincinnati Reds. I was going to give it everything I had, 24/7. I was willing to devote my life to this organization and my wife who stood by me so much, had three beautiful young children that she had done a great job of raising. I had already been gone a lot, but I was really ready to say, “I’m going to be gone even more because I’m giving it … this is what I work to do and it’s my dream and I’m going to give it everything I’ve got.”
Brad K:
And so as I stepped back following that, I kind of thought, “You know, is this really what God has planned for me? Is this what He wants for me?” And the interesting thing is as we were doing the statistical analysis, there was one area of player performance that we had not been able to gain any more insight with, with analytics. And that’s what we call in baseball, we call it makeup. Makeup is kind of what makes a person tick. The intangibles that make a player … two players can run the same speed, can hit with the same power, but one ends up becoming a superstar, another one flames out. What is it that is inside of them? And we tried all kinds of different personality tests and everything, and honestly the different personality tests, not one gave us any actionable, meaningful information that we could use to help develop a player, make them better, or even evaluate him to know how good he could possibly be.
Brad K:
That’s why when I was introduced to this concept of hardwired makeup, discoveries that were based on the latest advances in the hard sciences, I was blown away because it finally gave us something substantive and actionable that we could use to evaluate and develop these players. The interesting thing was even as I started using it and found it helpful from baseball executive and scouting standpoint, I find it also made a difference to me at home. I could better appreciate and understand my wife. I could better understand my kids. I saw the benefits go far beyond the playing field.
Brad K:
So as I stepped back and said, “What am I going to do with my life?” I had some other chances to get back with another team scouting, doing some things which would involve a lot of time away from home and I just decided that maybe God had me go down this path to be exposed to this and it’s my job to help take this to the world because it could help many people beyond just sports scouts. So I tried to use that as an opportunity to learn more about this and now I’ve taken it myself to share it with as many people as I can.
Warwick F:
Well, I mean that’s an amazing story, Brad. I mean, you spent your whole life since Ohio State and maybe beyond focusing on baseball. Did it feel like it was almost your life? For a person of faith, we always read in scripture about idols and I mean certainly for me growing up in a big family newspaper business, I’ll speak for myself. Yeah, I had definitely my faith in God was the cornerstone of my life, but yet Fairfax Media, the history, the dynasty, my dad, the founder who was a believer, it felt like nothing else mattered and if the company hadn’t gone under my watch, I never would have left. It would have felt betrayal. Was it an idol? In some sense, but I know that’s a weird term, maybe for some, but you know what I’m getting at. How did it feel to you, baseball, and you loved it. It was your life.
Brad K:
I still do love it, but what’s funny is before I went down, and I knew they were going to tell me in this interview and the way it went about, I knew they were going to tell me I wasn’t a finalist. I mean, I was a finalist, but I was going to be one of the final finalists and before I left, one of my friends, a coworker, he said, “Brad, calm down. You’re real upset.” I said, “You know what?” I remember specifically saying this. “Baseball does not define me.” And so I was really saying there, out loud, that if they’re going to fire me because I’m upset because of the way they treated me, then that’s the way it goes.
Brad K:
But when reality hits, I remember … what’s amazing, too, we were going to spring training a week later. My kids, we always pulled them out of school and take them down to Florida with us, and we already had our bags packed. We had shipped a bunch of equipment already on the team truck. It was already in Florida, and so I had to go home and explain to my wife, but really my small children, I had to explain to them that we’re not going to Florida, what does that all mean and it was very emotional for them.
Warwick F:
I mean, it’s kind of ironic that you mentioned analytics is something that baseball’s all into these days and you analyze player performance, you were a scout for many years, and yet when it comes time to one of the most important decisions, I would assume, a baseball team can make, which is to pick a general manager, there was precious few analytics. There was no who’s got the numbers, who has a record of performance, who has the best skills. It was just seem a personality contest rather than … I know you’re not big on personality assessments, but it almost felt like they used a personality assessment. “Oh gee, you know, it’s Monday. I don’t really feel like Brad.”
Brad K:
But they didn’t even try to use an objective personality assessment. It was a very subjective, “I like this guy. This guy’s my godson.” The decisions that are made, I was recommended to me by my buddy. So it’s just … but see, the same thing happens in business. Sometimes the top salesman, “Well, let’s make him the manager.” Well you know what? Maybe he’s great at sales and he’s not great at management and some guy that might be a great manager is doing terrible sales so he never gets considered.
Warwick F:
Right. And that is so true. So when that happened and it’s amazing you were interviewed twice and then kind of passed over and then finally let go. And it’s interesting you say that you were putting maybe baseball before family and that even though you weren’t a happy camper, that you feel like you couldn’t have got out unless you were let go… I mean you knew this really is not making sense. I mean, did you think analytically, “Why am I here?”
Brad K:
I don’t know if it didn’t make sense. It’s fun going to the ballpark every day. There’s a lot of joy in my job. I was getting paid to watch baseball games. No matter what my job was, there’s still something to be said for that. Now there’s a lot of other tasks that go into that. Everyone thinks, “Oh, you just watch baseball.” No, there’s a lot of contract negotiation things that are in any business and there’s some things that are not so much fun, but it wasn’t all bad, believe me, but it was just a lot of time and really you get to a point where what is life about? Do I want to spend my whole life … is it fair to my wife, is it fair to my family for me to be … and I know there’s a lot of, not absentee fathers, but that parents, men or women, especially men though, I think that pour themselves into their career, and they’re not at home. So what has happened is I really have found that our marriage has been strengthened through this. I mean, I’ve been able to see a lot of things with my children that I was missing out on and so it’s been a blessing in ways, but it’s easy to … I mean when you’ve wanted something since you were a kid you know and worked your butt off to do, it’s tough to-
Warwick F:
So when that all ended, maybe part of your family is thinking, “Well at least maybe we’ll be able to see more of dad,” and they probably weren’t even thinking that at the time or hopefully just feeling terrible for you, I would imagine. But what were those first few months like when it was over? Because you know you probably didn’t launch into Max Q Performance overnight. For most of us, it’s a journey. But what were those first few months like when your dream was over?
Brad K:
Well I didn’t figure it was over. I’m still not sure it’s over, that aspect. I feel I still have something to give back to baseball. I’ve been working on some stuff having to do with the hardwired makeup and baseball athletes specifically, but I assumed I would be getting back in at some point, it was just a matter of time. Actually I thought it would be time to take a step back and refresh a little bit, and I think the kids all thought it was great. “Hey, dad’s home, let’s play.” Because I was home so infrequently, whenever I was home, it’s “Play time with dad, let’s go in the back and play whiffle ball. Let’s play.” And so now it was “Let’s play every day,” and they thought that, “Gee, dad’s so much fun all of a sudden.”
Gary S:
it’s an interesting thing to hear you both talk about the aftermath of the crucible because Warwick, you’ve said in other conversations that we’ve had on this podcast that there was no way in your situation as the heir to Fairfax Media that there was no way really since the moment you were born that you were going to get out of taking over the company unless what happened happened when the company was passed from family control in the failed takeover bid that you launched. So in some sense, I’ve heard you talk about there was some relief once you’ve had a chance to process it, that that was no longer the situation you had to deal with.
Gary S:
Brad, to hear you talk about it again, not immediately afterward, but there was some sense of relief that you were able to put your attentions, your skills, your energies, your effort to something that was more fulfilling to the family, more fulfilling in some ways to being able to help others. Is that accurate from both of your perspectives?
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, to me, I do hear some commonalities in the story in that obviously Brad has loved baseball his whole life and still does, which is great. For me, I don’t know that I’d say I love Fairfax Media, but it was more just a sense of duty, founded by a strong believer who was a great husband, great dad, elder in his church, employees loved him, and he ran a great business. I mean, every area of life he was a businessmen for Christ, if you will. It was pretty much as good as it gets. So yeah, it was everything I did from Oxford to Wall Street to Harvard Business School was all about, “There’s a role I want to fulfill in life.” It had nothing to do with how am I designed, how am I wired? That was an irrelevant question to me. It was why take an assessment? It’s useless information because my path in life has been laid out.
Warwick F:
But then once I was in it and then once it was over, yes, I think you make an astute point, Gary. There was a sense of relief because I realized if you did a job requirements analysis for head of the million dollar company, it would have been a Rupert Murdoch, take charge kind of leader. And I’m more of a quiet reflective advisor. That’s kind of who I am, so my wiring couldn’t be more different than what was needed. It was an incredibly terrible match. And so afterwards, yes, it was searing, felt like I let God down, family, parents. But there was a sense that, well, who am I? It took me years to figure that out, which would be an interesting discussion about even when I took assessments, it was a bit, what do I do with all that? But it gave me the freedom to be who I was, but it wouldn’t have happened voluntarily. So that whole wiring thing, I completely resonate with, Brad, with where you’re coming from.
Gary S:
Is it true, Brad, would you say that eventually you came to a point that even though you still love baseball, you felt like you were released to go do something else that you also have great passion for?
Brad K:
Well, the thing is, and maybe this is a credit to my parents, maybe it’s a detriment. Since I was real little, I always felt I was destined for greatness. And so I thought I was going to be general manager and bring a World Series championship to the team and I’d be the toast of the town in the parade. But then as I had this kind of mid life … I wouldn’t say crisis, but this crucible moment, that it allowed me to step back and think and I thought, “What is being great in God’s world, really, about? Being general management for a baseball team, or if I could really share this insight that I believe is a window into how God truly created each of us, designing us with special talents and limitations, each person.” And so basically, I had to beg the guy that … he’d been a consultant with us that discovered this stuff, and so I said, “Look, I want to come and work with you. I want to learn all I can about this. I want to help you. The world needs to know about this.”
Brad K:
And so he almost very apprehensively said, “Okay, I guess you can come and help me.” And so I started trying to learn everything I could and shadow him around and spend as much time talking to him about it and learning all I can. And so it kind of evolved that I felt I would take this back to baseball because I knew the applications it had in baseball, but I also felt that I wanted to share it with the world. I felt that it was a more meaningful use of the rest of my days, however many God may bless me with, and that’s why I really wanted to do this.
Warwick F:
So this feels like understanding how we are wired, and I love the term you use, hardwired. It’s your mission, your purpose in life and you’ve talked a bit about it, but help us understand why is this at a very deep level, your passion, maybe even your God given passion, if you will?
Brad K:
I don’t know if that it’s my passion, but I feel like it’s my mission. It’s funny, I went to the dentist the other day and he was saying some stuff about my teeth are too tight, what they did with my orthodontia and stuff and he said my mouth is small. And I said, “Well, everyone tells me I’ve got a big mouth, so I don’t understand that.” But I am a talker. I’ve always been a talker, and the guy that made this discovery actually is not very high energy. He’s more of a reflective, very deep reflective thinker. And I think that maybe, and now as he fell ill and is not able to really share this with the world like I thought I was going to help him do, and I wonder if that maybe God has directed me down this path through sports to find out about this and then learn more of all I could and now it’s my duty to share it, to be the mouthpiece, the spokesperson to tell people because I think there’s a lot of liberation with understanding.
Brad K:
I think a lot of us think, “Why do I think this way? Why do I feel this way sometimes? Why do I act this way? Why do I perform this way?” And really, this explains the way that you’re hardwired in your brain, your motor cortex. There’s so many aspects of it that have to do with behavior and performance that totally makes sense.
Warwick F:
So talk about hardwired, and in particular Max Q Performance, and why that’s different. I’ve heard … I think you mentioned personality assessments may not be quite objective, but some people in the age we live in believe you can be whoever you want to be. There are no Limits. Just a throw off the shackles. Self-actualize. It sounds so good in so many words, but while we can grow and develop, people hate the L word. Limits. We try to know that understanding your wiring is limiting. I think we both agree it’s the reverse. But talk about your philosophy versus personality and the whole you can be whoever you want to be mantra that we hear in our culture.
Brad K:
Well that’s silly. Shaquille O’Neal can want to be a jockey at the Kentucky Derby all he wants, but it’s not going to work, the same way Willie Shoemaker could want to be an NBA center. It’s not going to work. We all have limitations. If we understand that, then we can really … I think as a parent, you know, as a parent, you don’t want your kid to be, “I was a football player and my dad was a football player, my dad’s dad was a football player. We play football and I want to play a piano.” And maybe he’s a great … got the ability to be a great concert pianist. So am I doing my duty as a father to make him play football and not let him do the piano because he can be what I want him to be or maybe he even thinks that’s what he should be. Getting a little bit to your point, Warwick, is that you thought that what you should be and you went into something that wasn’t maybe what you really wanted to be.
Brad K:
So I think if you understand that kind of stuff, it’s all about … I think about it so much as being a parent. And I feel my job as a parent is put my children in position to succeed, encourage them, help provide them the tools they need, but help guide them down a path, because really I think what’s life about? What is the meaning of life? And I think it when you get to your final days and you look back and you can say, “You know what? I used what God gave me to the best of my ability and I lived the best life I could,” and we all have our own life. I’m not trying to live your life or Gary’s life. I’m trying to live my life the best that I can, and that’s all I can do really.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s really a profound point. From my perspective, and I would have assume yours, God designed us a certain way. My belief is God doesn’t make mistakes, so if He designed us a certain way, why shouldn’t we live in light of who the Designer made us to be, right? I mean, it’s just stupid otherwise. You know, one of the things I often say is anybody that’s had kids or been a kid and I have three kids in their twenties, they all come out of the box a certain way. They could be artistic, they could be athletic, they could be reflective, they could be outgoing.
Warwick F:
I have two sons and a daughter and they’re very different. I have two that are writers. I have a daughter who’s very missional, just come back from working for a faith based nonprofit in Australia. And yeah, they’re all very different. And so like you with your kids, I try to encourage them, help them understand how they’re wired, which they do, and then just show options, encourage, but just I want them to be whoever they want to be but obviously in light of who they’re designed to be. And I’m sure with your kids you have the same philosophy, right? Help them understand who they are, give them options. It’s their choice, but help them realize you may not want to spend hours, months, years on a path that has nothing to do with who you are.
Brad K:
And maybe if they do choose a path that I think is going to be more difficult for them, it’s your life, you can do that but I’m going to tell you, here’s where you may encounter some hurdles and you need to be prepared for that. Because one thing, too, where we do have limitations, it’s best to find someone that can help shore up our weaknesses and help us like an assistant, a spouse, whoever it is in our life that can help balance us and help us be the best. That’s why teams are so important. I think that the more I can share the word about hardwired makeup, the more people will understand true diversity is really diverse minds and people that have different ways of processing information and different strengths and weaknesses from an…
Gary S:
I want to-
Warwick F:
Please, go ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
I want to step in, for the listeners, and point out something that’s really interesting about Crucible Leadership and Max Q Performance. It’s fascinating to me that Crucible Leadership posits that we have to understand, we must understand, how we’re designed to live a life of significance. That’s the gateway in the refining cycle to get to the life of significance. Max Q Performance posits that by delving beyond root level persona, we create a meaningful and substantive solution to moving beyond the crises that we face. You guys are both talking about the same kinds of things.
Gary S:
For folks who hear the words, “I need to understand how I’m wired. I need to understand how I’m designed,” Brad, how does hardwired makeup help people understand that?
Brad K:
Actually, I like crucible moments too. Not because of what it puts people through, but because that’s when we really see how a person truly is wired and the flaw, Warwick, with all conventional personality tests is they’re all self reporting mechanisms. So you can really be who you want to be, oh yeah. And a lot of times, based on the way we’re raised, based on the values that we’re taught, you should be nice to people, you should be outgoing, whatever it is we’re taught, we tend to develop that persona. We’ve all done it. Okay, I’m going to this situation. I’m going to a meeting, I’m going to a social function. I’m going to deal with something with my children where I need to, okay, let me put on this face. I need to be tough in this situation. I need to be nice in this situation. I need to be outgoing. And so we wear these masks and the same way when we take a personality test, many times people think, well, in this situation I’m like this, when I’m in the other situation, I’m like that.
Brad K:
And so we answer these based on a combination of nature and nurture and we get them confused and so hardwired makeup … and the reason I chose Max Q Performance, it’s a physics term. When a rocket ship is about to escape the Earth’s atmosphere, there’s a point of maximum pressure that the point of the rocket has to be able to withstand or the rocket will implode. And so under pressure, when we’re all under pressure, that’s when … I can say I’m lefthanded all day long, but when pressure hits and the ceiling’s caving in, I’m going to use my dominant right hand to save my life, you know? So at these points, that’s when we find out aspects about how a person is truly hardwired to think, feel, behave and perform.
Warwick F:
And that makes so much … I mean, I agree with you so much about just understanding how we’re wired and hard-wiring. I guess one question I have is I’ve done a lot of executive coaching and taken a bunch of assessments, some better than others, but I know for me, I took an assessment back in the mid nineties and it said I was … it was reasonably accurate. I was sort of reflective, analytical, liked gathering a team of likeminded people, all of which I think is reasonably true. I guess you’d call it in the motivated abilities space, I suppose you’d say that’s where it was, but I remember looking at it and saying, “Okay, well what do I do with this thing?”
Warwick F:
So even if you have the best assessment, somebody might say, “Okay, I think this is me.” But especially for younger folks, twenties, thirties, how do you both help them understand their wiring and maybe a bit like a baseball scout just help them grow and develop into that. How do you combine that?
Brad K:
What do you mean develop into that?
Warwick F:
Well, I’m sorry. Maybe I misspoke. That was the wrong way of putting it, but I mean they understand their wiring, but how do I apply it in a career. How do I decide what positions to take? What does this mean for my next step of my career? Putting it into practice, basically.
Brad K:
Well, I think a little depends on what you really want to do, finding something … obviously you need to enjoy, I always said find me someone with passion and I’ll show you a success. If you find what you’re passionate about and if you’re willing to work hard and study and learn it and put the time into it, like my goal when I got into baseball, I said, “I don’t know if I have some innate scouting sense that these scouts have, maybe I don’t,” but I said, “My goal is going to be when my boss gets into work in the morning, he’s going to see my car in the parking lot. And when he leaves at night, he’s going to see my car still in the parking lot,” and I wanted to be there whenever he needs something. I wanted to be there for him and be able to get the job done to the point I started to anticipate what he needed before he asked for it. And so I developed a reputation as someone who got things done. Not that I was some super smart guy, but I know how to get things done.
Brad K:
And because I love doing it, I loved being at that ballpark in my office and so having a passion about that enabled me to find success. And I think that understanding, then, how they are and really Warwick, I don’t know a whole lot about your background, but I get the feeling that you were a little bit … maybe you beat yourself up some, but I think you got caught in the midst of difficult economic times globally that maybe in a different time, and I think you had to know you were taking a calculated risk when you tried to do what you did, and so then I think that maybe at another time things might’ve worked out differently.
Brad K:
There’s a lot of people that try what Warren Buffett did, buying down and out companies and some of them stayed down and out and they never become Warren Buffett. So you need to take risks, and we only hear about the success story sometimes.
Warwick F:
No, you’re right, but I think you made a very astute point, is it’s understanding your your wiring, your hardwiring, but also combining that with what are you passionate about? You’re passionate about baseball, you understood analytics and it was just a great combination. So if people understand their wiring and then understand what they’re passionate about, you’re right. Then they’re kind of, they’re on a great path. So that makes so much sense.
Gary S:
I want to jump in and say something. You talked a few minutes ago, Brad, about you weren’t sure whether you had the scouting ability. I know for a fact you have the scouting ability, cause I’m a Chicago Cubs fan and you were one of the scouts who scouted Jake Arietta when he was with the Baltimore Orioles and no good and he got to the Cubs, won a Cy Young, pitched a no hitter. I happened to see it Dodger stadium and help them win the World Series. So bravo. You are a good scout.
Gary S:
The second thing that I wanted to say is as we’re talking about assessments and doing things, one of the things that people want to discover how they’re hardwired through what Max Q offers, is you have an assessment, correct, at your website that people can take. What’s that like and what kind of outputs do people get that are helpful to them, to Warwick’s point, applying what they learn about themselves?
Brad K:
Well, one thing that sets this apart is, like I said, all conventional commercial personality inventories are all self-assessment, self-reporting mechanisms. Ours is the only one that has a third person perspective. We ask you to have somebody else that knows you very well also take the assessment of you, because the fact is the way we see ourselves is often very different than the way others see us and they can often observe behaviors in us, the way we handle situations, that we may think we do it one way just because partly the way we’ve been raised and trained to believe that we are and other people can often see us in a different light. So combining those, we’re able to get a bit more of a full picture.
Brad K:
And the other aspect of hardwired makeup is even our motor skills, even our visual acuity, is impacted by the way we’re hardwired. So there’s clues, each person gives off clues and even some people are easier reads than other. But even with enough clues, I can tell people’s hardwire design without even having a questionnaire, by observing them enough. So you can find out why you take in matters the way you do and why you process them the way you do. And so whatever aspect of life you’re trying to apply that in, you can utilize that to know how you are prone to behave and perform.
Warwick F:
Wow, that’s amazing. So one question I had, just a little bit off topic, but we live near Washington D.C., in Annapolis and obviously these are happy days for Washingtonians, with the World Series. I grew up in Australia, which is kind of the land of cricket. I’ve lived here a long time so I know a little bit about baseball, but obviously not as much as you guys, but one of the things you heard talk was the Astros were all about analytics and the Nationals supposedly, yeah, they’re into analytics, but there was some gut feel and I sometimes think when people say gut feel, like you’ve got, again this is your area, not mine. We’ve got somebody like Dave Martinez has been in baseball for decades. Gut feel can be another word for years of experience that the brain like a cray computer kind of links up so that it’s not just so much, “Hey, I don’t know what I’m doing,” but there’s a lot of subconscious analysis there. But any thoughts about that whole like you know, one team was supposedly all about analytics and the other team not as much or is that a bit of a misnomer?
Brad K:
Well, I think analytics is used … probably, and analytics just means a deeper understanding, thoughtful analysis and obviously data gives us ability to quantify what we’re talking about. Gives us firm points and analytics is just additional information. I think scouts, when they talk about gut feel it, like you said, it’s just the years of experience and I’ve seen many guys like this and so this is how I see this playing out. And so analytics can be a good compliment to that. But the thing is the Astros upset a lot of people, a lot of the old time people in baseball, because they’ve got rid of a lot of their experienced scouts and just relied more on analyzing video in the office and statistics.
Brad K:
And you know, it’s interesting in that game, game seven, Greinke was pitching a great game and it’s almost like they couldn’t wait to get him out of there because they wanted to get them out after six innings. He was pitching so well they left him in, but as soon as he had weakness, in their view, they got him out and then the bullpen gave it up. So the Nationals have done a little bit more keeping some of the longtime scouts employed and so I think a lot of “baseball people” view them as the more traditional baseball organization so I think a lot of baseball people were pulling for the Nationals.
Warwick F:
Interesting. So analysis is good, but some of that subconscious, or you don’t want to dismiss somebody that’s had decades of scouting experience and probably is all analytics but maybe in a broader sense. So just as you think about what you’re doing, what’s your kind of dream or vision for hardwired and maybe even beyond hardwired? What’s your dream about humanity, or people, really understanding how they’re wired? What could this mean if people truly understood that?
Brad K:
Well, for one thing we’re not all equal and it’s okay. That’s okay. Men and women are different and we’re all different in ways, even among men and among women, and I think everyone is valued. If everyone understood they will be valued for what they bring to the table. And everyone’s afraid, “Well, one design is all good and one design is bad, so we should get rid of them.” And actually I’m concerned there are a few hardwired designs that are very hard to find, especially here in the United States where it’s a total immigrant population going back to our forefathers. I consider them almost to be endangered species because it’s almost like there’s genetic factors and so there’s one design that’s really like brown hair, brown eyes. It’s very dominant and even when you get them together, mating with a less common design, the more common one, the dominant one, tends to come out. So I see certain designs really overpopulating our population and I’m worried that other ones … because everyone has something to offer and I think people will be appreciated much more if we understood that .
Gary S:
So, you both have worked with me long enough to recognize the phrase I’m about to use. Land the plane. We’re coming up on when we want to kind of conclude this, wrap things up for listeners. Crucible Leadership is all about helping people live lives of significance out of their crucibles. As we said at the outset, a key component of that is embracing their crucible moment, learning from it, living with it, and understanding step one, how they were designed as a process of moving to a life of significance.
Gary S:
So people who are listening to this podcast understand that they’re here to get some hope and some inputs and insights and how to do that. Brad, you, through Max Q Performance, do have an assessment that will tell people how they’re wired. How can they find that and what will they learn about their wiring? What kinds of different types are there? You mentioned some types in your last comment. What kind of types will they find if they go to maxqperformance.com, take your assessment, lay that over what they’re learning in Crucible Leadership, how will that help them?
Brad K:
I think the easier question might be how would that not help. That’s a much shorter answer.
Gary S:
Good on you.
Warwick F:
Great point.
Brad K:
At maxqperformance.com they can find the assessments along with some more information about it, but we can tell you substantively if you’re left brain dominant or right brain dominant, much of the way you’re left handed or right handed, and even left brain right brain has some misunderstandings out in the public realm. We can tell you if you’re hardwired more in the front of the brain or the back of the brain and actually Warwick, you’re interesting in that I think you’re a reflective person, there is no question, but it’s because you like to … I think your mind is always going, too, though. You’re very much … all the strategizing, thinking about how things can be done better and-
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Brad K:
And the thing is that when Carl Jung coined these terms of extroversion and introversion, he was talking about the way you get your energy also, and so I think even that’s misunderstood in some ways. We can also tell you if your dominant, empathetic or analytic person and giving you those aspects, we can also tell you if you’re a conceptual or a sensate, one that uses more your five senses, or one that uses more your sixth sense of creativity and intuition.
Brad K:
So you can find out a lot of people. And to me really it’s funny because I always thought I was left brained. I like to be organized. Anybody in business feels that being organized is important but then as I found out more, I was more right brain, that explains why I’ve got … my office is a mess. I got files of stuff, projects I’m working on and everything and so why different ideas keep coming to my mind all the time.
Brad K:
So I find out things even about … I felt pretty good about myself, but I found out more about why I was the way I was and I can understand why I did some things that I wasn’t always proud of or some things I was really proud of, but just a lot of things made a lot of sense. And like said I, it even made me appreciate and understand my wife more and helped our relationship in many ways.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Well in conclusion, I’d like all the listeners to go to maxqperformance.com, take the assessment. I think the advice Brad says of having somebody else take it is great counsel because in the Crucible Leadership world, the foundation for leading a life of significance, a life on purpose and helping others is understanding your design, understanding your hardwired design, to use Brad’s term. If you don’t understand your design, then it’s really extremely difficult, if not impossible, to lead a fulfilling life, a life on purpose, a life of significance.
Warwick F:
So it’s incredibly important and so what Brad is doing is providing a tremendous service to people so it’s not limiting. I believe that if you understand how you’re wired, yes, maybe there are some things you weren’t designed to do, but it frees you up to do things maybe you never thought possible. So I feel it’s actually opens a whole huge window into the world so I’d encourage everybody to go to maxqperformance.com and understand how they’re hardwired.
Gary S:
Brad, thanks for spending time with us and a spirited, insightful conversation. Much appreciated. And listeners, hopefully you’ve learned some things here today about not just a crucible moment, but how you in coming back from that crucible moment and understanding how you’re wired, understanding how you’re designed, that is the trip wire for launching yourself in to that life of significance.
Gary S:
We love to hear your feedback here at Crucible Leadership. Please go to crucibleleadership.com. There’s a contact form there. You can let us know what you thought of this conversation. You can tell us your own crucible stories so that we can begin a dialogue, so that we can continue to help you along the path of you coming back, moving beyond your crucible.
Gary S:
If you’d like to engage with us on social media, you can come to Facebook and you can find us at Crucible Leadership. You can also find Warwick on LinkedIn at Warwick Fairfax. That’s with the silent W in the middle. W-A-R-W-I-C-K Fairfax, and until the next time we’re here together, thank you for listening to Beyond the Crucible.
Gary S:
If you like what you hear, you can click subscribe on whatever app you’re doing right now. You’ll never miss an episode. If you really like what you hear, share it on social media. Share it with your friends. Let other people what’s going on. These kinds of conversations like we had today between Warwick and Brad are the kinds of conversations we want to bring every week because our goal is to, yes, focus on crucible experiences. Focus on those painful moments, but not as an end in and of itself. We want to focus on those moments to help you realize, to help your friends realize, that crucible moments are painful. They are difficult. They can stop you, but it’s not the end of your story. It is in fact, if you embrace them and learn from them, the beginning of your story, because it’s a new chapter in your life that can be the best chapter yet because it leads in the end to a life of significance. Thanks again for spending time with us today.
We live in uncertain times. We currently live in a world where the coronavirus has spread across the globe. In many countries and in much of the U.S. we have been advised to take refuge in our homes. Restaurants are not open, many stores have closed. Many businesses have laid off workers. We fear getting sick. We fear losing our job and not having the means to support ourselves. Even if we are in reasonably good health, that is not a guarantee that we won’t get sick.
I am reminded of what Franklin Roosevelt said in his first inaugural address in 1933 at the height of the Great Depression:
“So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is…fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.”
That is not quite the case in what we are going through with the coronavirus pandemic. This virus poses a real threat, particularly to the elderly and those with preexisting medical conditions; and it poses a real threat to the economies of many nations.
But the fear of the unknown greatly amplifies the fears we have. Will I get sick? If I do get sick will I have mild or major symptoms? Will I have a job? How long will this last?
Those of us with fertile imaginations can greatly amplify our emotional and spiritual distress in what are trying times. True confession: I do have a vivid imagination, which helps in my role as a reflective adviser and thinker and does help with strategic planning. I am also by nature a cautious person. I don’t go bungee jumping or parachute diving. Before I do anything, I typically think very carefully. But in the current situation we are living in, these qualities are not always that helpful.
So, left to my own devices, I could easily let my imagination run wild and think of all sorts of worst-case scenarios, or perhaps even worse than worst case…
How do we stop being paralyzed by fear? Of course, we should take adequate precautions. We should shelter at home, minimize external contacts, wash our hands often, don’t touch our faces. We should do what we need to do, listening to the advice of the appropriate health and governmental authorities.
Even then, the fear of the unknown is so hard to deal with.
So here are some thoughts on trying to fight the fear of the unknown, replacing fear with hope. I say fight, because it is a daily battle; to not let our fear win.
1. Reflection
Sometimes reflecting on the sayings of people we most admire can help ground us in our inner beliefs and values. Here are a couple of great quotes on dealing with fear.
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” – Nelson Mandela
“Being brave isn’t the absence of fear. Being brave is having that fear but finding a way through it.” – Bear Grylls
These quotes emphasize the thought of not giving into fear, of fighting it, not letting it take hold. How do you this?
2. Mediation and Prayer
To me it starts with grounding ourselves in what we know to be true, our innermost beliefs. I think of these two Scriptures that help me as I meditate and pray:
“I will say of the Lord, ‘He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” – Psalm 91:2
“Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.” – 1 Peter 5:7
What these two verses emphasize is that from my perspective, God loves us. He is our refuge and fortress. We can trust him. We can cast all our anxieties on him. For me prayer centers me and calms my spirit.
Think of what you most cherish and hold dear. Meditate on those teachings. It could be from a religious tradition, wise sayings or a favorite book or poem. Something that brings you back to what you believe and a place of calm inner peace.
3. Take a walk in nature
Near where we live in Annapolis Maryland, there is a wonderful nature trail surrounded on two sides by water. It is a beautiful setting. We are currently in Florida in a condo near the beach, so thankfully we still have access to what is now a quiet place. Taking a long walk on the beach, listening to the water, the seagulls and the wind is definitely soothing.
4. Listen to your favorite music
If ever something can soothe your soul it is music, especially music that you love and are familiar with. It is like an old friend. I love all kinds of music: classical, jazz, classic pop (’60s and ’70s), ragtime, worship music. Given the importance of faith to me, listening to worship music that talks of casting out fear and trusting in God certainly helps. But any music that brings a smile to your face and calms your soul is a good thing.
5. Spend time with loved ones
While we are physically isolated from many, we can still spend time with our families. For many, spending this much time with our families may not be normal. Take advantage of this time. Try and play together, laugh together and listen to each other. As a friend of mine said, with our friends and extended family while we may have to be physically distant, we don’t have to be socially distant. We can still call our friends up, or with modern technology we can FaceTime them, or set up Zoom video calls.
6. Don’t put your life on hold
To the degree you can, try not to put your life on hold. Some may not be able to work remotely. However, many can work remotely. While you may not be physically connected to your co-workers, try to carry on as before. You can call them, have video conversations with them. Obsessively thinking about what might happen is not helpful. Get done today what you need to get done.
7. Stay informed, but not too much
It is good to stay informed. Growing up in a newspaper family, my natural mode is to stay informed; to know what is going on. But while this is important; looking up news sites every minute and looking at news channels all day long is not helpful. Tune in from time to time, but not all day.
8. Think of how you can help others
When we take the focus off ourselves and our fears, and think of how we can help others, it does two things. First, by thinking of others and not ourselves, it tends to reduce our fears. Second, it helps others. We might bring food to an elderly neighbor. We might call or have a video chat with a friend or family member, asking them how they are doing and trying to support and encourage them.
We live in uncertain times, where the fear of the unknown is very real. This is a minute-by- minute, hour-by-hour battle. When you start feeling fearful, be pro-active. Don’t wait for the fear to grow, which left to its own devices it tends to. Nip it in the bud. Use whatever go to tools work for you. Take a walk. Listen to your favorite piece of music. Pray and meditate.
While we can’t always control our circumstances, we can control our attitudes and how those circumstances affect us. It is not easy, but the spiritual and emotional battle is one that we can win. In that sense, Franklin Roosevelt was right: “the only thing we have to fear is…fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror.”
Let’s not let fear win.
Reflection
What are the best tools for you to calm and center yourself (mediation and prayer, a walk in nature, listening to music, spending time with those you love)?
What can you do today to move your life forward, at work or at home?
Who can you help or call today that will brighten up their day?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
If you’ve had a crucible experience, you are going to have to persevere through feelings of loss and fear, as well as additional setbacks, as you chart your course to a life of significance. Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax shares stories from his family history (his great-great grandfather John Fairfax) and world history (Winston Churchill), while also discussing his own efforts to claw his way back emotionally and practically after losing $2.25 billion — and the company itself — in a failed takeover of the family media dynasty he inherited. Perseverance is so critical to the stories of these men — and every man or woman who seeks to bounce back from a crucible experience — that it should be considered a gift that flows from our most challenging circumstances. “In our lowest moments,” Warwick tells co-host Gary Schneeberger, we find strength and courage and perseverance we never knew we had.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everyone to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, your co-host of the podcast and the Communications Director of Crucible leadership and you have clicked play. You have subscribed to, you have loaded, uploaded. You are listening to a podcast that helps people live and lead with significance. That’s the goal of Beyond the Crucible, to help you live and lead with significance, and we do that through the prism of crucible experiences. Those moments in life, we all recognize them. We may not call them crucible experiences when we have gone through them, but we recognize them as painful failures and setbacks that can feel like the world has changed. The course of the river of your life has been altered.
Gary S:
The trajectory of where you’re headed has shifted. They are painful experiences, but they’re not the end of your story. They are in many cases, the beginning of your story, if you do what we encourage you to do on this podcast, which is to learn the lessons of those crucible experiences, to apply those lessons, to craft a vision, to make that vision a reality, and to live a life that’s pointed to a life of significance. That’s what we talk about here at Beyond the Crucible. With us as always, is the architect, the author of Crucible Leadership, and the host of Beyond the Crucible, Warwick Fairfax.
Warwick F:
Hey, Gary, great to be here.
Gary S:
Warwick, we’ve got an indispensable subject I think we’re talking about today, and that is perseverance. One of the things, before we really get into talking about how perseverance works in our lives and how specifically it applies to leadership and Crucible Leadership, is that it seems that crucibles are the soil from which perseverance can grow. In other words, it’s really hard to envision a circumstance where you can move beyond your crucible, without having a measure of perseverance in your life. Is that a fair statement?
Warwick F:
Yes, Gary, absolutely. Many of us will go through a crucible of one description another it could be a business failure, getting fired, health challenge, loss of a loved one, and it’s not easy to come back from devastating setbacks. But without perseverance, it’s really tough to come back, and we’ll talk more about this as our discussion continues. It’s almost a choice to get out of bed or not. Do I this day, get out of bed and say, okay, I’m in a direst of circumstances, the lowest of lows, but I’m going to keep going. Perseverance is really the key to bouncing back from a crucible experience and certainly, the key to a fulfilling life or even to be a successful leader. I can’t think of any leader that I can think of that succeeded in their field without perseverance. You could pick business, athletics, the arts. It’s just tough. There’s setback after setback, disappointment after disappointment, but that sense of perseverance is the key to life and leadership and the key to bouncing back from crucibles.
Gary S:
It is true that it’s very hard to be a leader, to make your mark on society in whatever way that you choose to do it, without having some measure of perseverance. I do, as I always do when we do one of these episodes where it’s just the two of us talking about a principle of crucible leadership, I did a search for quotes about perseverance, like I do a search for quotes about character, and quotes about humility and about transparency and it returned, that search on Google returned 35,000 results. Perseverance is a topic that people talk about and that people who have achieved some level of significance slash success have had to muster in their lives. That’s why they talk about it.
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Gary S:
You said something when we were talking about how we were going to go through this episode yesterday. You said something I thought was just really poetic, where you talked about the gift of a crucible, and that the fruit of that, and one of the fruits of the gift of a crucible is perseverance. Explain what you meant by that.
Warwick F:
Crucibles are never fun, but out of the ashes of your crucible experience can come a vision. It could be to help others that have, if you’d been through terrible circumstances, whether it’s bereavement, losing a loved one, or abuse, you can have the sense of you want to help other people and so out of the ashes, a crucible experience can come as a sense of perseverance, a sense of wanting to help others to make a difference. Sometimes in our lowest moments, we find strength and courage and perseverance that we never knew we had. It’s really is, somebody once said, one of our recent podcast guests, we learn the most during the low points rather than the high point. It doesn’t feel fun at the time. It feels agonizing, excruciating but years down the track we’ll never really say, gosh I’m so glad I went through it, but there are things we learned about ourselves and about who we are and what our deepest desires and passions about and just how much character and strength and perseverance we have. That can be the fruit of a crucible experience.
Gary S:
That gift can truly be knowing that we can persevere. Knowing that we can survive. We talk about crucible experiences, difficult things that occur in life. One of those 33,000 quotes that I did pull is from Dr. Martin Luther King jr, and I just thought it was just extraordinarily phrased when he said this, “If you can’t fly, then run. If you can’t run, then walk. If you can’t walk, then crawl. But whatever you do, you have to keep moving forward.” At its core, especially in relation to leadership and crucible leadership moving forward, keeping in motion, keeping pressing toward the vision and the goal. That’s really what perseverance looks like in the universe that we’re talking about here, isn’t it?
Warwick F:
It is. That’s a very good quote and that is so true. Part of it is getting up every morning. It’s what am I going to do positively to move forward? If you’re unemployed, okay what is it I can do to find a job? Where can I go? Places I can volunteer, employment agencies who do I know? Maybe if you’ve been through some bereavement or abuse, how can I turn this experience to help others? So It’s really getting up in the morning and saying, okay, what positive step can I take today? I may not have the end vision or the total clarity about where this is going, but what’s something positive I can do today? To use an over worn sports analogy, what could I do to move the ball a few yards down the field?
Warwick F:
The touchdown may be so far away you can’t even see it, but don’t get so focused on, okay, there’s these millions of things that I got to do, how am I going to do at all? It’s what one thing can I do today that’s a positive step to move forward? Really that’s probably the key to perseverance as we were discussing earlier. It’s a choice. It’s a choice to move forward. There are several things that’s a bigger a topic, but I think of forgiveness. You can be sitting in bed saying, I’m not going to get out of bed today and do anything positive because I’m just going to sit and be angry at those people that hurt me or did me in or I’m going to be angry at myself.
Warwick F:
If that’s holding you back, which anger and resentment and lack of forgiveness can, it’s like a millstone around our neck. I don’t have to agree with things. I don’t have to say what happened was right, but I’m going to put that aside and I’m going to move forward because if it’s not serving me time to toss those negative emotions away. What positive thing can I do today? It’s really a choice to say, okay, no matter what’s happened in the past, how can I move forward? What one positive thing can I do today? That is the key because over days, weeks, months and years those series of positive things will almost inevitably lead to a very positive direction. If you keep doing that or at least it’s certainly better than the alternative.
Gary S:
That’s very wise to point out that no matter what happened in the past, you have to move on, move forward as that quote from Martin Luther King indicated. But there’s also sometimes no matter what may happen in the future, sometimes what can lead us to not want to get out of bed figuratively or literally is that we fear something that’s coming up. Fear of something that’s coming down the road. We fear where things might lead. It’s interesting that perseverance can be tied to what has come before and what may be coming up ahead that might be fearful to us. What would be your advice, Warwick? There are people listening right now and they’re in an emotional place where they don’t know if they have perseverance, they don’t know if they can muster perseverance. I know you said get up, put one foot in front of the other, but from an emotional perspective, how can listeners orient themselves to take that step? To put that left foot in front of the right foot and get moving.
Warwick F:
I think of two words and that’s hope and fear. Follow hope, not fear. I think of Margie Warrell who had on the podcast a bit ago and she is all about helping women and men be brave and toss away fear. She uses this phrase for the sake of what? We cannot let fear control us. It’s often fear is an emotion. Sometimes it can be helpful, there’s primitive men and women we’re out in the wilderness and bears coming, okay it’s understandable to be fearful. Let’s run. I get that.
Gary S:
Survival instinct.
Warwick F:
There’s a reason for it but don’t let the fear of the unknown or what if I fail again? What if I’m humiliated again? What if, what if, what if? It’s like, okay, that could happen, but you’ve got to be willing to take a risk. That’s a key part of perseverance is be willing to take a risk and that’s where, again, I love the phrase that Margie uses for the sake of what? It helps to have a vision. It maybe you’re a cancer survivor or again, an abuse survivor, your notion, maybe I want to help other people who are in my situation. That’s for the sake of what? I know I’m fearful. I know I might be rejected but this is too important. This is more than just me. I want to help other people.
Warwick F:
It’s that sense of hope, it’s that sense of cause it’s the vision. Maybe you’ve got a business that you have an idea of that you think will really help people. I’m a big believer with significance for the sake of being something that is more than just focused on yourself because to me to overcome fear and inertia when it’s for the sake of other people that to me is a higher wattage lamp or it has greater strength to pull you out of a funk and out of a, it’s all hopeless. Fear is a natural part of being human but I think it’s for the sense of hope, for the sake of what that says, okay, I know I’m fearful, I get that but I choose not to let my fears define me.
Warwick F:
Yes, I’ll be willing to fail. Maybe I’ll be mocked and rejected but you know what? This is too important, it’s not about me. It’s about helping others. That’s probably the key to conquering fear, which is the biggest reason you just don’t want to get out of bed. It’s like I was hurt badly last time. I’m never going to emerge again because I don’t want to get hurt. That’s understandable but you can’t let fear control your life. That leads to despondency and I think Margie Warrell also uses this phrase from Thoreau, which I love, which is we don’t want to lead lives of quiet desperation. You don’t want to be that man or that woman. You don’t want to be that person. The way to avoid living a life of quiet desperation is one foot in front of the other, get out of bed and just what is it that’s going to motivate you to take that next step? How can helping people really be part of that? That’s the key. It’s hope of a fear.
Gary S:
It sounds like as you described that, and I hope you hear this listeners, it sounds like the fuel, the same fuel that fuels being able to have perseverance, the same fuel of perseverance is the fuel of significance. Those things, a vision, a vision will lead you to a life of significance. If you know what it is you want to accomplish to help others, that will drive you. But that same vision will lead you to perseverance and lead you to bounce off walls that want to block you and find ways around walls that want to block you.
Warwick F:
Exactly. You have to have fuel and the fuel is vision, significance. That’s what helps you with perseverance. We’ll talk later about some examples from history and my family, in fact, my own life but that’s pretty much the key is got to be something that’s motivating you. Maybe you kind of destitute and your family is sort of in and out of halfway homes for the sake of what could be, I want my family to have a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs and that’s motivating, that’s a powerful vision too. It’s for the sake of what, what is your why that really can fuel you to be able to move forward.
Gary S:
Okay. You’ve just jumped ahead and what I was going to do by saying that it’s so fascinating. We did not talk about this listeners, we did not use the phrase, what is your why prior to this recording, but I pulled for the end of this podcast, I’m going to list three things that come from top business magazines about how you can find perseverance, how you can live in and pursue perseverance. One of the things, I’m going to give one of them away now, I’ll give two more at the end but one of the three things I was going to talk about, Success Magazine pointed out that fuel for perseverance is to remember your why. What is your vision? From a leadership perspective, a business perspective, that’s what Success Magazine in addition to you Warwick say is extremely important. We have two more coming towards the end. You mentioned Warwick, no go ahead.
Warwick F:
Just on that one real briefly. Especially in the world of crucible leadership, you’ve gone through a crucible, a devastating failure, a personal setback. The why can be rooted in, as I mentioned before, the ashes of that crucible experience. Whether it’s business failure or getting fired, a divorce, abused, loss of a loved one, it can be, okay, how can I use my pain to help others? When you’ve gone through certain experiences, it gives you a unique empathy for others. That’s really the key I find is often the why will come out of the ashes of the crucible. Doesn’t have to, but it often does.
Gary S:
That goes back listener and Warwick, that goes back to what I said at the top of the episode. That word that you said about the gift of the crucible, the gift of the crucible is the why for what it is that you’re going to pursue. You mentioned Warwick that we’re going to start talking about some examples and I’d like to have you, if you would start with a family example, your great, great grandfather, John Fairfax, because I have here, if you’re watching on YouTube, you’ll see it. I have here the book that you quote often on the life of John Fairfax. After you set up the story, Warwick about how perseverance played such a big role in John Fairfax’s founding of the media company that you were heir to, I want to read a couple of paragraphs from the book that really hammer home that really elucidate the perseverance that he and his wife Sarah had. Share with listeners a little bit about your great, great grandfather and his truly, truly perseverant life.
Warwick F:
John Fairfax came out from Australia in the late 1830s. He had started a newspaper in Leamington in England and he was sued by a local lawyer twice. The judge ruled in John Fairfax’s favor that the story was accurate, that it was not liable, but the court costs ended up bankrupted him even though he was justified in the court. He comes out to Australia with his young family with almost nothing, but that really didn’t discourage him. He had this vision of a paper that would in this young colony of Australia, and just a couple of things that he said to me it’s interesting. This dream kind of wouldn’t die. He was the local librarian in what’s now the State Library of New South Wales. He and the guy Charles Kemp, who would become the editor of the paper while John ran the business side they would sit long into the night and they had this vision of this newspaper, which would be the Sydney Morning Herald.
Warwick F:
They called it the plan because they wanted to buy it and run it collectively. This newspaper would be without fear to express opinion without their approach of self-interest. Sworn to no master and free from the narrow interest of sectarianism. It was a vision of how it would serve people without being beholden to one party or another. He talked about doing their utmost for the improvement and growth of the colony. John would handle the business side. His partner Charles Kemp would handle the journalistic side and together they collaborate on the editorial. They would fight for just causes and expose abuses. It was very idealistic, a very strong vision and it carried them through. One other brief thing almost within the same year that they bought the paper Sydney Morning Herald in 1841 Australia went through a big recession and the company was on a knife edge.
Warwick F:
They had to rally their employees and say, look, we’re going to have to cut wages back a bit. We’re going to cut back what we receive as partners, but I promise you’ll have a job and we’ll do our best to pay you back. It wasn’t easy, but what got them through that first crisis after they bought the paper, it was their belief in the vision that this was too important. They were going to do their level best to keep going. The vision really enabled John to get over his past disappointment in England, prior bankruptcy of his paper, the unjust treatment of that lawyer and just ability to get through the 1841 recession.
Gary S:
It also I’m going to read from this book the story of John Fairfax published in 1941 this was the hundredth year of Fairfax Media, the company that your great, great grandfather started. His vision also led him over the fear of what it was like moving from England to Australia. I want to read just a couple of paragraphs from this book because it’s so compelling about where perseverance comes from and how to live it. The book says this as they approached the coast, this is John and his wife Sarah. “John saw the stark forbidding barrenness of the land. He felt a terrible despondency and a concern for Sarah and her sick baby and the fear he felt for the future weighed upon him. He stood alone on the spray swept deck with his arms folded, bracing himself against the lurch of the ship as she pounded onwards and looked out at the sterile hope shattering strip of coastline that was the Southern border of his future homeland.”
Gary S:
“He thought of the responsibility, which was his of providing for a wife, a mother, and four children, and he thought of the 12 sovereigns, just 12 sovereigns which stood between them and starvation. He bowed his head and fear like ice stole over his heart better surely to have remained poor in Leamington than to starve in that sandy soulless wilderness.” Then this happens. “He felt a touch and a hand stole into his.”
Gary S:
“It was Sarah. She looked pale and ill and she staggered in her weakness as the ship plunged and shook”. This is a quote that I’ve seen you use before Warwick, but this is what Sarah John’s wife said to him, “Do not worry about me or the children. I will be brave and helpful and whatever God may send or may take away my love for you is the strongest thing I have in life and it will have no death. I do not worry about you. I know what you can do and it is much. I know your strength of purpose, your sound vigorous brain and your sense of honor. You are well armed John for any fray and you will win and I will win not only success but content and great happiness.” One of the aspects of perseverance for him was the support of his wife.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. It’s really quite remarkable as they were headed to Australia in the late 1830s it’s a four to six month voyage, they had young kids, one was very ill and sadly died soon after they made it to Sydney and she was not doing well, John was on the deck of this ship, they were looking as they were headed past West Australia, south, they looked at the barren wasteland and it just looked forbidding. It just looked like a terrible place. What are they doing? Yet she sensed it. She came up and just gave him this such love and unconditional support that having family and friends who are for us no matter what, that’s also one of the keys to perseverance.
Warwick F:
People that believe in you. There aren’t too many people that have achieved great things, men or women that don’t have a spouse, family or friends that were for them. There might be one or two, but it’s so much easier when you have people that believe in you that can keep you going just that one more step. He did in Sarah, a woman of great faith and she believed in him and believe in the vision that they were going to craft in this new colony of Australia.
Gary S:
That’s just one of the examples. You have some other examples from history of other, again, people that you have heard of and people that you haven’t heard of necessarily but there are people throughout history as we said at the outset to become a quote unquote great man or woman, a woman who’s left a mark on society of significance. You have had to exhibit persistence. True?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I think of another one when I think of great leaders in history who had perseverance. I think of Winston Churchill, he was somebody that he made mistakes. He tended to challenge leadership, which leadership doesn’t tend to like I’m afraid. Sometimes he was on the right side of history and sometimes not. But in the early thirties I think it was Stanley Baldwin was prime minister he challenged him maybe one too many times and he was back on the backbenches. In other words, he wasn’t in the Cabinet, he was in the wastelands so to speak of politics. The thirties are called wilderness years for Churchill. During that time from somewhere around about 33 on, Adolf Hitler started rising to power in Germany and Winston Churchill could see the danger, could see that if we don’t do something, things are going to get so much worse.
Warwick F:
He kept almost like a voice in the wilderness, like a Don Quixote saying, you got to watch this guy. They said, well, there’s old Winston. He was old even at the thirties, warmongering running around, shaking his fist at windmills. Just ignore him. It’s hard to ignore because he’s eloquent and bombastic, but let’s do our best it’ll all go away. Basically they were saying, let’s hide under the covers and maybe everything will just solve itself. But yet he never gave up. He kept speaking and trying to warn the nation, indeed the world about the dangers of Adolf Hitler but many didn’t listen. Gradually things started turning when Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia and it’s like, maybe Winston was right and then he invaded Poland, then in September 1939 World War II started and eventually the miraculous happened and he became prime minister and that’s where his perseverance came to the fore, some of the greatest speeches in the English speaking language occurred during those years.
Warwick F:
Just after he took power in May 1940, he gave this speech to parliament, which has these famous phrases, “I have nothing to offer, but blood, toil, tears and sweat.” He said in the same speech, “Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be. For without victory, there is no survival.” At that point it was really, it was before the US got in the war in December 1941, it was in 1940 those were dark years. It felt like Britain and the Commonwealth against all of the might of Germany. Then a few months later in 1940 he gave this famous speech. He said, “We shall not flag or fail. We shall fight in France. We shall fight on the seas and oceans…”
Warwick F:
“We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the field and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender.” That sense of belief that they would prevail when it didn’t look so good at the time the sense of perseverance and if you bring it back to, well how can we relate to this, but what was his why for the sake of what? Well, it was for the sake of the preservation of Britain as a free country and not being slaves to Nazi terror and the horrors of what the Nazi regime brought to the countries in Europe that they conquered. It was just this belief that we will find a way.
Warwick F:
Somehow they did. They found a way in the Battle of Britain to hold off the mighty Luftwaffe with the RAF. It was grim but that sense of perseverance being completely focused on the task at hand. He never let resentment or grudges hold him back. He just threw them off. He didn’t have time for that kind of stuff, and so he didn’t. He was totally focused on his goal, which is preserving his nation. That was a very compelling vision and he was able to inspire a nation like few others ever have. You heard Winston Churchill speak, it’s like you know what Winston thinks we’re going to do this. We’re going to find a way. We’ll find a way to survive. Just one more day, one more day of freedom in this particular case.
Gary S:
Now, I can imagine there are listeners right now who have just heard the story of John Fairfax, your great, great grandfather and Winston Churchill, two men who left pretty big legacies. Winston Churchill, as you pointed out, saved Britain, may have saved civilization in some sense as we know it. Your great, great grandfather created this media dynasty that lasted five generations and created deeper legacies of faith and character that are now in their sixth generation with your children and there may be people who hear that and go, my goodness, I can’t be a John Fairfax and I can’t be a Winston Churchill. I don’t know that I can do that. But that’s not the point. Perseverance leading to significance does not have to be that grand, does it?
Warwick F:
No. I can think of an example in my own life. As listeners will know from a prior podcast, after my $2.25 billion takeover failed and ultimately failed in late 1990 company went bankrupt. I felt responsible, certainly significantly responsible for the company falling out of family hands. It was a crushing blow. I tried to find work, but it’s hard when you got a resume that says out of work media mogul. I tried to persuade people look, I’m humble, I work hard. It’s like, right, forget it. I was desperate and it’s just sometimes the smallest, most insignificant steps, one of the things about perseverance is you’ve got to park your desire to not do things that are beneath you, you’ve got to be willing to do anything basically. One of the things I did is I went to some temp agency that found temporary positions for accountants and financial analysts.
Warwick F:
Well, a number of years before I’d worked on Wall Street and I knew I could do financial analysis and say, okay, great, well we have this little program that will test your understanding of spreadsheets on Excel. At the time I was actually pretty good. It was like, you scored well, you actually know how to do spreadsheets. I guess I do. I ended up having a temporary job at some sports company actually was a pretty big sports manufacturer. It just had an office in Maryland and I did some budgeting work and I seemed to do that okay. The same temp agency said, well, you’ve got good reviews from that employer. We’ve got another temporary position at a local aviation services company doing financial analysis. That temporary position at that company in Maryland turned into a permanent position where I worked for about six years.
Warwick F:
Then from there I went to coaching and moved on, but it was just taking one step. Okay. It feels a bit humiliating as a Harvard MBA to go to some temp agency that are looking for, paying in a minimal hourly wages for some financial analyst thing and I have a Harvard MBA. People in my class are working their way up to be vice president somewhere. But that was just one small step on the journey. I didn’t know where that was going to lead and that’s one of the other secrets of perseverance is I didn’t know that from this temp job at a sports company to an aviation services company to coaching, to writing a book on my experiences, leadership and now Crucible Leadership, I had no idea that was going to end up there.
Warwick F:
How could I possibly know? But just be willing to take that next step. It seemed logical at the time and don’t be too proud. If you feel like this is what you need to do, then do it. That’s a really small baby step to go to a temp agency and say, do you have anything for me? That’s not a big vision. It wasn’t really for me financial survival, it was more emotional survival. I have to do something to feel like I can contribute in some positive way using my skills and I’ve got to be able to get out of bed and do something constructive. That was a baby step. Just take a baby step. It doesn’t have to be saving Britain or a big newspaper from calamity. It can be just, what’s one thing I can do to help me and my family today?
Gary S:
That is an excellent place for us to drop the landing gear and begin to land the plane. I want to leave folks with one more quote I’ve found, which this one surprised me. This is from Albert Einstein. Albert Einstein said this, it’s not that I’m so smart, it’s just that I stay with problems longer. Your story makes me think of that Warwick, it took you a little while to find your vision to find your footing and move beyond that crucible experience but now you are living a thriving life of significance. You stayed with your problems longer. You worked at those very things that you’ve encouraged listeners to do. I promised that I was going to end us with persistence tips from top business magazines. Some takeaway for you, listener, as you’ve heard this discussion about perseverance, what are some practical steps you could take?
Gary S:
We’ve already touched on one to remember your why, what’s your vision? It doesn’t have to be big, it just has to be focused on helping others. That’s really what significance is found in helping others. If you’re stuck in a place and you feel like you can’t go on and you need to muster perseverance, remember your why Success Magazine suggests that one. Another one, and Warwick, you’ve exhibited this from the moment I met you. Forbes included this in their list of tips for having persistence in the wake of trials. Have a sense of humor. How important is a sense of humor when you’re talking about perseverance?
Warwick F:
It is. You’ve got to be willing to, I take life pretty seriously, but you got to be willing to laugh at yourself and your own foibles and it’s funny I do take life pretty seriously I have to confess, but you’ve got to be able to have a sense of humor in the process and really a sense of hope. Absolutely. I’m pondering this as Albert Einstein talked about, his work ethic, there’s a lot of things in life we can’t control, but we can choose to get out of bed we can choose to keep at it, to not give up, to keep finding a way. I like to think I’m as fearful as the next person. Maybe some people don’t have fear.
Warwick F:
Well, I’m a pretty fearful person. I have a vivid imagination about what can happen and what can go wrong. I’m a strategic planner. I get that, but it’s like, okay, I will not be conquered by fear. I will remember the why remember for the sake of what I’m doing it and have hope. That’s really the key and another one when we’re thinking about perseverance and significance is be open to things, opportunities that come our way. Be open to subtle shifts. One example that people know from the past, in about 12 years ago now, in 2008 the pastor of my church wanted me to give a message of what I’ve been through and somehow related to David who is a righteous person, falsely persecuted while that wasn’t me, I thought, okay, fine, I can give my story somehow even though I’m not a natural public speaker.
Warwick F:
Somehow that story provided hope as I was able to share what I went through and maybe some things that helped me get through it, that was okay. While I’m not necessarily a natural speaker, somehow my story connected. That’s what led to me working on a book on my experiences and ultimately to Crucible Leadership. When things happen in your life, pay attention and say, okay listen, this went well, why did it go well? What does that mean? Maybe I need to make a subtle shift in direction. Keep moving forward and be open to the subtle shifts that will maybe ultimately take you to your vision and to that life of significance. You may not see exactly where it’s all headed, but you sense, I think this is the good next step I’m sensing this is positive. Embrace hope, reject fear and listen for the subtle shifts that will take you to a life of significance.
Gary S:
Believe it or not, you did it again of the three things I was going to talk about, you mentioned the first one before I talked about it, I did get in the sense of humor idea from forest, but what you just said summarizes perfectly what Inc Magazine said about perseverance and that is to recall your past persistence. To recall the incidents in your past where perseverance has worked out. Where you’ve put one foot in front of the other and you just mentioned it Warwick, aviation services company and that led to you know, the speech to the church which led to the book which led to the Crucible Leadership. Those things become building blocks of perseverance that allow you to continue to pursue your vision toward a life of significance.
Warwick F:
One baby step of success gives you a bit of motivation to go the next step and it doesn’t have to be a big win. Just a little baby win or a little step, little positive step, okay, let’s keep going. That’s moving forward, reject fear, embrace hope and it’s for the sake of what? What’s the why? What’s the vision? What’s the life significance? Those are all keys to having perseverance.
Gary S:
That sound you heard listener was the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign. Warwick is going to get the last word because that was a great place to land the plane. We want to thank you Warwick and I want to thank you for joining us on Beyond the Crucible and if you found this discussion insightful and helpful as you pursue your own life of significance, we have a favor to ask that will help us help more people like you who are seeking a way to move beyond their crucible experiences and to find the perseverance to do so. Here it is. Please subscribe to Beyond the Crucible on the app you’re listening to it on right now. If you do so, it will allow you to make sure you do not miss an episode and it will make it easier for others to find us, listen to us and share the podcast with their friends and coworkers.
Gary S:
If you’ve heard something on this podcast that you’d like to learn more about, we encourage you to visit us on the web at crucibleleadership.com. One of the things that you can do there is read Warwick’s blog, sign up for emails to receive Warwick’s regular blogs where he writes about the very subjects we talked about here today. You can also take a free short assessment that will help you discover where you are on the path, on the continuum to your life of significance. What is the areas that you can work on in your life as you’re moving from crucible to significance? Where are you at in that journey, and what are some resources that we can offer to help you along the way? Until next time, please remember that yes, crucible experiences are painful and difficult, but they’re not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning of a new story, a new chapter in your story that can be the most exciting and joyous one of your life because it’s a path and a chapter that leads to a life of significance.
Craig Perra admits he’s the last person you’d expect to be a life coach. He was a corporate lawyer on the C-Suite track when his sexual and drug addictions left him at rock bottom in his career and his marriage, bringing him so low he attempted suicide. Then a mentor who had walked a similar path helped him overcome his demons through structured behavioral change that allowed him to understand the underlying causes of his destructive ways, create new, healthy habits … and save his relationship with his wife. Perra talks with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax about how life’s most painful moments can actually be gifts if they are harnessed to help us craft an intentional vision for moving forward with a purpose rooted in serving others. He’s helped clients in 27 countries reclaim hope and joy in their lives with his Mindful Habit system, which offers behavioral change insights anyone can apply to recover from crucibles of all stripes.
For more information on Craig Perra and the Mindful Habit System, visit www.mindfulhabit.com
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everyone to Beyond the Crucible, the podcast where we discuss crucible experiences, crucible moments, those things that are painful setbacks, can be tragedies, can be traumas, can be failures. And we talk about them for the reasons of not dwelling on them, not wallowing in them. But what we hope to have out of our conversations is to provide hope to the listener, provide insights to the listener on how you can come back from your own crucible moments, move beyond your crucibles, and then also action steps, what are some things you can do out of this conversation that you can then take with you to live your own life of significance. And with me, as always, is the founder of Crucible Leadership and the host of this broadcast, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we got a good conversation today.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Good to be here and great to have Craig with us.
Gary S:
And I’m not sure if I introduced myself. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show, as well as the communications director for Crucible Leadership. That’s only so you know, listener, when Warwick or somebody says Gary, who he’s talking to. That’s me.
Gary S:
But more importantly is Craig who Warwick did indicate there. And I’m going to introduce Craig. And one of the things, listener, that we do that’s very exciting and interesting for us is we ask every guest we have on to provide us a biography. Craig did that. And throughout the conversation, please don’t think when I finish the last sentence of what Craig provided as his bio, that that’s the end of Craig story. And you’ll hear through the conversation with Warwick that it’s not. But I think what you’ll glean from this is kind of the character of Craig and where his heart lies in terms of his life of significance.
Gary S:
So, this is Craig Perra’s biography as he gave us. Adopted as an infant into a loving Catholic family. Mom and Dad tried their best. Mother was physically and verbally abusive. Dad worked his butt off from poverty to master’s degrees to being a famous regional sports coach. This instilled in me a drive for success. Never feeling good enough was a powerful motivation. I met my current wife and soulmate, Michelle, in college at UConn. What followed, lawyer, executive, fired two times. Liar, cheat, drug user, suicide attempt. That’s the snapshot of Craig’s life that will begin this discussion between the three of us. Warwick, take it away.
Warwick F:
Well, Craig, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it. You have a powerful story and love what you’re doing with mindfulness, which we’ll get to in a bit. But share a bit about your story and as that led in to your crucible experiences. Yeah, tell us a bit about Craig Perra.
Craig P:
Sure. Craig is born in failure. When I got asked to be on this podcast, Warwick and Gary, I was so excited because I’ve literally built a career, a life around colossal failures. And they were big. The last one was on the heels of a failure. I was back in Massachusetts where I used to live with my family about 12 years ago. I was assistant general counsel for $3 billion company. And anyone who’s done the corporate thing knows those are nice jobs. Lawyers really, really like them. They have their own pressures, but not the pressures of private practice. Had an amazing boss, and it was a great company. But I got fired. I got fired not because they caught me doing anything wrong.
Craig P:
I got fired because I wasn’t performing, plus I lied to my boss about something trivial. “Craig is that a coffee mug?” “No boss, that’s not the coffee mug.” “Are you sure that’s not a coffee mug? I’m looking at it. It looks like one, Craig.” He gave me 30 opportunities to answer a small trivial question and I’m literally, it wasn’t about the mug obviously, it was about did I do something. “No, I didn’t do that.” “Are you sure, I’m positive you did. Three people told me you did.” No, but I had gotten stuck in the lie. I just didn’t have the courage to say, yeah, I goofed. I made a mistake. I shouldn’t have done that. That little small, trivial insignificant thing that would have been a normal learning opportunity for normal people.
Craig P:
I got fired from that job, become the comeback kid, I get a better job. I now am in charge of Esurance’s compliance department. I’m taking on a role and responsibility that I hadn’t before, national responsibility, leading a bigger team for the first time. And that was like literally jumping off a cliff. It was at that low point, I mean, I was so low, I tried to kill myself. 10 months after getting fired from the first job, I got fired from my second job. I was out of my mind. I was using drugs. There was a scene in one of the Christmas movies where Chevy Chase is intoxicated and he’s shoving the salmon in his Santa coat and he’s stumbling around drunk. I wasn’t that bad, but there was one time where I was clearly under the influence at work.
Craig P:
I had a long successful career, I didn’t get to that job where I would have, you know, if I continued to be successful, I would have been running the compliance department, chief compliance officer for a billion dollar a year company. And I hated my life, I hated the job. I did not get along with my boss. I didn’t see people around me that I wanted as mentors. I saw a lot of unhappy people and that realization that here I am in California, I’m stuck, there’s no way out. I stuck my face in a pile of bath salts, that’s that synthetic chemical you might have read about 15 years ago where people were losing their minds, now illegal, thank goodness. Worse than PCP and meth put together. I thought that would be a good idea. And so I got addicted to that chemical.
Craig P:
I did not kill myself, obviously, it was an unsuccessful attempt. More of a cry for help. But what that did is that forced me into getting help. And that’s when things turned around in a pretty significant way. So, I’ll stop there to see if you have any questions and then I could keep going regarding the comeback. But I wanted you to see this, I get fired and I’m screwed, what am I going to do. I’m a lawyer, I don’t have a license to practice in California. I’m out in California, I’m stuck. I tried to find another job, there wasn’t another employer that needed my skill set for 80 miles. I would have had to move again. I felt so trapped, I felt so trapped. I was so unhappy in so many aspects of my life.
Craig P:
I remember sitting in the car and pouring all the drugs out and just said, you know what, if this does it, fine. Clearly a cowardly move and one I’m glad didn’t work. But that was the low point.
Warwick F:
One of the things you’ve said, which really amazes me is on your website, you are so open about all the challenges that you’ve been through. It sort of blew my mind reading it, to be honest. It’s like, wow, you lay it all out there. One of the things you talk about as well as in just videos you’ve done is your relationship with your wife, I think somewhere around that time was in a pretty bad place. So talk a bit about because it’s getting fired and drug addiction, all is one thing, which is just horrendous. But then on top of all that, your relationship with your wife and just for a variety reasons, that was in a bit of a challenging space. Talk about that on top of everything else. It just felt like you were just hit with a tsunami of just different challenges.
Craig P:
And so, part of my coping strategy has always been as a man, doing what “guys do.” Having affairs, lying, cheating. I had rationalized clearly under the sign under the light of day deviant behavior, but I had rationalized that for so, so, so long. At the core was my heart. It wasn’t anything my wife did. It wasn’t anything that she could have done differently. You can’t give what you don’t have. And I hated myself and I wasn’t able to open myself up to connect with her as a husband should. I blamed her, and this is so common in my work. There’s so much resentment and projection onto the wife. The wife becomes mother, my wife had become my mother. She wasn’t trying to be my mother, she was trying to keep the ship rolling and dumping out the water. We have two beautiful, incredible children.
Craig P:
And she’s my best friend. We met in college, I’ll never forget. We met by the subway truck, the sandwich truck, the little portable truck where you get your Subway sandwiches. I joked and I saw her reflection off the BMT sandwich and she had this black leather jacket on. We were listening to the same music. And I literally said to myself, I’m going to marry this woman someday. And I was in no position at that time to get married, but I knew there was something special about her and we became best friends before we started dating. She is my soulmate, she is my best friend. I crapped all over that relationship. And it was so bad, her intention. Now, she did look down at me. She looked down at me, and she extended her hand, said, “Husband, you’re the father of my children, I want to help you. I don’t think we’re going to make it. I don’t think we’re going to make it but I want to help you.”
Craig P:
And it was that that act of kindness, that just showing of love moves me in a deep way. And it has been my inspiration since then is helping other men heal from the lies and betrayals and the secrets they’ve kept from their wives. We just celebrated our 21st wedding anniversary. We’ve never been happier. We do calls together for the wives that are in my program. And she said something two weeks ago that I’ll never forget. She said that she wouldn’t go back and change a thing. She would not change a thing. And the reason why she said she wouldn’t change a thing because while she didn’t like the pain, didn’t like the suffering, didn’t like the feelings of insecurity and not being good enough for her husband, it made her who she was.
Craig P:
And it’s because of those experiences that she was forced to grow in ways that she couldn’t imagine. And clearly, I was forced to grow in ways that I didn’t realize. But it also forced us to grow together because when I kind of woke up from that low point, like wait a minute, there’s got to be other options. There’s not one job. I had such blinders on. But yeah, we just celebrated 21 years and we’ve never been happier. I put that poor woman through hell.
Gary S:
I’m going to jump in here because you use the phrase low point a few times, Craig, both in relation to your experience professionally, personally, and in your marriage and how your wife felt. And one of the things that really intrigued me about some of the information that you sent to us, and it’s very interesting in light of what crucible leadership talks about and what Warwick has gone through himself and what he offers people through Crucible Leadership. But you said this, which really struck me, “Your lowest point is an incredible gift.” Warwick talks about it as I said at the top of the show, your crucible experiences can be not the end of your story, but the beginning of a new chapter in your story if you learn the lessons from them.
Gary S:
So, it’s extremely interesting, you hear Warwick tell his story, listeners have heard him tell his story. Very different practically, very different in detail from your story, Craig. Yet, the emotions and the perspective that comes out of that, from that low moment, can come healing, hope, the best moments of your life. It’s extraordinary how, and listeners, I want you to hear this too, your stories probably differ from Warwick’s and Craig’s both, but those emotions that you feel by digging in, by recognizing that your lowest point is an incredible gift, by recognizing that your crucible experience, if you learn from it and apply those lessons can lead you toward a life of significance is a truism.
Gary S:
How do you guys react to that knowing that your stories are so different, and yet the emotions behind them in the way that you crawled back from them, you clawed your way back from them are very similar?
Warwick F:
That is such a profound point that our lowest moments can be a gift. It’s not a, push pause for one second because I want to make sure that listeners understand what was the motivations that led you to that low point because by understanding the motivations, it then helps the listeners understand how you bounce back from that. What were the things, because you got this stuff on top of the surface, which was getting fired from a great job, drug addiction, cheating on your wife. Was a variety of different challenges. But typically, there’s something beneath that that causes the behavior. If we don’t understand the behavior, we can’t help stop that, turn the ship. So what was the underlying thoughts or motivations that led you to just that incredible low point that you went through?
Craig P:
Great question, Warwick. It was, I felt trapped. I felt trapped. I saw my life unfold. Now I’m peeking into the C suite, I’m now in the room. I’m now in the room, the C level executives. I’m not there yet, but if things go as planned, I am the Chief Compliance Officer for this billion dollar company. So much excitement, so much opportunity. I didn’t want that. I never wanted that. I remember back in college I want, mom, dad, I want to be a teacher. I want to be a teacher, I want to teach people. My dad was a teacher, became a very successful teacher administrator, big soccer complex named after my father. And no, you’re better than that, be a lawyer, be a lawyer. And I had the natural skill set to be a lawyer, and I loved it.
Craig P:
But I never felt like I was in charge of my destiny. I remember when we were putting together the specs of our new house together that my wife and I built in Massachusetts, I’ll never forget how resentful I was about the granite countertops. It’s like, this is what I’m working for? This is what I’m doing in my life? I was so unhappy. I was doing what I thought I was supposed to do. I was following that trajectory and I was so, so unhappy. I wasn’t fulfilled. I felt trapped, Warwick, that’s what it was.
Warwick F:
And it’s interesting, getting back to Gary’s question, that I can relate to. So it almost feels like you were living somebody else’s dream. Every parent likes to think that their kids will do better than they did. But better often for some people means more status, more money, more prestige. Better doesn’t have to be defined that way, but it sounds like for you, it’s like, hey, I was a teacher, you need to do better than that from his perspective. I think teacher is a wonderful profession but I get your dad’s perspective. Almost felt like you were being forced into a role you didn’t want to and you were medicating the pain in a variety of different ways, including marital cheating and drugs and what have you. Is that like a fair comment? It was almost like you were being forced into a role you didn’t want to be and you were medicating the frustration.
Craig P:
Yes, that’s exactly right. There were these different parts of me. There was the part of me that went to work, that enjoyed analyzing compliance related issues because it’s a fascinating field, it’s where the law and the business intersect, and I was very good at it. I had an executive business background, I had a legal background. It was perfect. It was perfect. That’s exactly what someone with my skill set should do. But I was miserable. I did not feel fulfilled. I didn’t like the job. Not the company, the company was a great company. And thousands of people have very successful careers there. But I felt I wasn’t me. And instead of finding me, I instead escaped from being me. And at various points in my life, I escaped from being me with drugs and prostitutes.
Craig P:
And those two things collided in a big ugly way 10 years ago, because now, not only was I trapped in a career, now I’m trapped in this job. I can’t go anyplace else because I looked online, there’s no other company that needed someone with my expertise, they were 80 miles away. I knew that I’d have to lose a big chunk of income and I lacked the courage to say, I am unhappy. I lacked the courage to say I am unhappy. That is the truth for so many of my clients, and I see it all the time. They lack the courage and the intestinal fortitude to say, hey, I’m on the wrong track, I need to get back to my center to do something that’s going to lift me up.
Craig P:
And for me, it took a rock bottom for that to happen. So that’s back to where Gary was talking about this being a gift. The thought of me being a life coach with my background is preposterous, it’s ridiculous. People laugh. People laughed when they heard it back then. Here we are eight years later with clients in 27 countries, a successful program, world famous client base. It took that low point to help me forge the path that was going to fulfill me and enrich me and inspire me.
Warwick F:
And I want to hear in a brief second about that inspiration. But as you share your story, it’s very different than mine, but yet there are similarities that a lot of our listeners would know growing up in a 150 year old, large family media business in Australia. The expectations are very clear, you will go into that, you will prepare yourself, and you will make the company even greater than it was before. You will do better than previous generations and you have no other options because why wouldn’t you want to be in a family media business that does great service to the community, don’t you care about your country, about your community. How could you not want to do that? So hence, Oxford, Wall Street, Harvard Business School, I wasn’t really that interested in business, to be honest. Still I’m not. I’m more of a reflective advisor.
Warwick F:
But I never thought to rebel because I loved my parents and how could I let my parents down. Not quite the nation, but how can I let people down. So, yeah, I was miserable and totally out of my depth. And it was, yeah, grim. So everybody deals with that in different ways. But that sounds eerily similar. So I guess, I mean, obviously, I have my own ways I try to claw myself back, but how did you claw your way back? You mentioned that failure can be a gift. How did you change your perspective to see it as a gift, to get your career back on track, your marriage back on track? How did you, because a lot of people listening to you are saying, that’s irrecoverable. You can’t recover from all those things. It’s kind of game over. How did you bounce back?
Craig P:
I found a mentor who had been through my struggles. I had done a lot of counseling, I had done a lot of therapy in my life. And that was valuable, that was valuable. But none of those people had walked in my shoes. And in fact, when push comes to shove, they probably had no idea beyond what they read about in their books what I was going through. I found somebody who, his name was George Collins. He is a therapist in Walnut Creek, California. He specializes in working with men struggling with compulsive sexual behavior. And that’s what mine was, and the drugs of course. He did it, he was happy. So then maybe I can be too.
Craig P:
And so, having a mentor, having a therapist, a counselor is critical. And as someone who provides those services, I acknowledge to clients how self-serving that statement is. And it is what it is, you know, and it is what it is. So that was very important to me.
Warwick F:
Okay. So being a mentor …
Craig P:
Having a mentor.
Warwick F:
That was a key. You mentioned there’s a sense of therapy almost in helping other people. I’ve certainly found that as I talk about failure and getting the odd letter from folks as I did the other day from a woman classmate at Harvard Business School. Sharing about some of her business challenges and feeling like, hey, there’s somebody else that’s been there, she felt like she wasn’t alone. It’s a different area. So, a mentor is helpful. So what was some of the other things that helped you get your life back on track? Your marriage, for instance? That’s a miracle in of itself. There are many marriages that wouldn’t survive.
Craig P:
And in fact, my wife was done. She was pretty clear on her intentions. She had been down this road before with me. Clearly, I wasn’t somebody who could be faithful. She said that she was going to stick around to help me get back on my feet because I was the sole provider. I was the guy who made the money to feed the family. And so, she was going to support me till I got back on my feet. And then she’d separate, then she’d end the marriage.
Craig P:
A lot of things happened at that low point, a lot of things happened to me at that low point. So I found a mentor. I also started to find purpose, purpose, like, wait, there’s something very liberating about being at that low point. In other words, there’s only up. Down was death. And I decided that I wasn’t going to do that, I’m a father, what are you thinking, man, snap out of it. There’s got to be another way besides that. I said to myself that as long as I am in the house, as long as I am in her presence, I’m going to do everything humanly possible to show her that I can be a kind, caring, compassionate, loving husband and save the relationship. And that’s what I did. And it wasn’t easy.
Craig P:
Clearly, I have intimacy issues, I have issues around connecting. I was sexually abused as a child, so sexual anorexia, which means it just doesn’t flow naturally when there’s love involved. Stranger, boom bada bing, easy peasy. But when there’s love and connection, that was a challenge for me. And we saw, we met each one of those challenges together and had an incredible time in the process. And there were no resources out there for the partners of someone like me.
Craig P:
And the only resources that were out there was either she’s codependent or she’s a co-addict. It was all framed around 12 steps, which is a treatment modality 85 years old invented for alcohol that’s now applied to other things. That didn’t resonate with me. It didn’t resonate with her. So she started blogging and just sharing her experience, sharing her story. Well, that took off. Then came the Anderson Cooper Show. Then came the Katie Couric show and then came Lifetime. Now I’m kind of cramming a whole bunch of things together. But together, we just had so much joy helping people. And that’s how it all started, that’s how it all started.
Warwick F:
One of the things I think you’ve said, and correct me if I’m wrong, is you’re at a low point, marriage, business, all sorts of things going on. But you made a decision of the will, I’m not going to abandon my kids. Suicide is not an option. I am going to resurrect this marriage. I’m going to do whatever it takes to deal with these very difficult issues. Maybe 12 step programs are great programs, maybe didn’t quite fit your situation. There’s no one size fits all. But you and your wife were determined. And she was obviously incredibly courageous too that you just felt like we were going to make a decision of the will to get through this, to get your career, life, marriage on track. Does that feel right that you made a decision?
Craig P:
Yes.
Warwick F:
And many people would say, that’s a silly decision because there’s no hope, but even where you didn’t feel like much hope, you made a decision of the will. Was that a key turning point for you?
Craig P:
Key turning point, key turning point. And as ridiculous as it sounded, in the moment, you’ve got to imagine the dinner tape. So my wife and I just had been anonymously helping people. Responding to comments on a blog, just little, very basic stuff. But it was growing, and there was momentum. And I saw a void that I could fill. I used to, one of the things I got trained in was how to build curriculum. I saw that the treatment modality that most people were using didn’t address habits, didn’t incorporate mindfulness, didn’t really have a sense of purpose. Didn’t specifically create healthy in that area. And I said, you know what, I can build a course, I can build a better program that’s going to move the right guy further faster. That is what drove me.
Craig P:
But there was a time, I’ll never forget this time, we’re sitting there at dinner with her parents, my wife’s parents. They know everything, they know rock bottom, they know that I had done it again, I’d gotten fired again. And I remember looking over at my father-in-law to tell him that his daughter and I decided to be life coaches. And you could see the look on his face, like what are you thinking? He had 50 questions. Now we had answers for all those 50 questions. He’s a business-minded man so we knew, we were like, we’re going to meet with an investor. We were prepared for those questions. But it was in making the decision together and then realizing that we had something special, there was a hole that we could fill, and that hole was massive. And that really inspired us to keep pushing and keep chugging along to bring us where we are today, which is, we’re just getting warmed up today.
Warwick F:
I want to talk about mindfulness but I just want to recap for the listeners a couple key takeaways that I’m hearing so far. One is you made a decision of the will that these challenges, business and marital, were not going to define you. And the second was just this sense of purpose. I’m sensing you saying the healing power of purpose, which I have a feeling might be part of mindfulness. Talk about the healing power of purpose and how that plays into the whole mindfulness program, which sounds amazing. So talk about purpose and mindfulness.
Craig P:
The whole thing is mindfulness. Some of it is mindfulness in disguise. When I talk about habits, other parts of my program, I’m explicit when I’m talking about traditional mindfulness. But one of the things that I’ve learned about human beings is that we are needs-seeking organisms. Everything we do, from what we say to what we do is a conditioned response to get needs met. If, if, if, if, you can align that need with what you’re great at and what you love to do, well, life is going to be a heck of a lot easier for you because as we all know, life is hard enough as it is to be doing something that you hate, where you don’t feel fulfilled, where you’re never feeling good enough.
Craig P:
And there’s something very mindful, which means, like, wait, what is it that I want to do that’s going to contribute value to the world, and how am I going to use that to inspire other people? Really, I think, as you said, it’s a mindful principle because it’s being mindful about what drives you, what feeds you, what inspires you. So that journey from rock bottom forced me to answer all those questions because I was not going to make that mistake again.
Craig P:
And so, that’s where the mindfulness comes in. It’s mindful around who I am, what do I love to do, how am I going to serve, and what feeds me, the Native American story of feeding the right wolf is a great inspiration to me. And it’s an old story, but these old tales have an awful lot of science wrapped up in them and understanding, how you’re going to feed that right wolf inside you and me helping clients get there, and of course, me finding my own sense of purpose. It’s like mindfulness at its core in a sense of how are you going to feed that part of you that needs significance, that needs loving connection, that needs community? So yeah, I hope I answered your question.
Warwick F:
Yeah, yeah. No, you did. I’d love to hear, personally as I’m sure the listeners would, what meeting those needs meant for you. But in addition to purpose, we all have needs, but trying to meet those needs in a constructive way that fits in with your innate gifting, passions and talents to accomplish, and we use this term a lot, a life of significance, a life of helping others, it feels like that was the key to mindfulness for you is meeting those needs in a positive way that’s in line with what you love to do in a constructive way. That feels like that was key. So what does it look like for you? You’re wired a very specific way, as we all are. How did you meet those needs in a constructive way in a way that helped you live a life of significance?
Craig P:
So it was Martin Luther King Jr.’s Speech called The Drum Major Instinct had a massive impact on me. Of all the things that I listened to, there was something about him recognizing that we all have this drum major in us. And the drum major is the guy at the front of the parade with the shiny outfit waving the baton. To some degree, maybe we don’t want to be him, but we want that attention and we want that significance. And there was something about that that I had gone the eastern way, which is to not desire and I didn’t want anything and I took jobs that wasn’t very fulfilling because I thought I was being mindful, but I wasn’t. I was still unhappy, I was still seeking. And it was literally that alignment of me realizing that if I have this need to be significant, to get positive attention, then I’m going to do it in the service of others.
Craig P:
And it was like in that moment, where like, I have the skill set, I have the aptitude, I have the writing skills, I’ve got the personality. I just saw that all these things were in perfect alignment and that’s how I learned that I had to feed the right wolf, and that’s when things changed for me in a dramatic way. I recognized that I had these needs, it didn’t make me a weak person because I want to be important and want to be significant. But if I am going to be an important significant, do it in the service of others and be the biggest star in the world. But if you’re helping other people, rock on.
Warwick F:
So when you said the right wolf, to summarize it in like a sentence or two, what does the right wolf look like for Craig Perra? When Craig Perra is being who Craig Perra needs to be kind of in service of others, what does it look like?
Craig P:
He is driving results where other people haven’t. My niche, Warwick and Gary, I’m in the sex and porn addiction. field. And so, my clients don’t share on Facebook that they work with me. If they did, I’d be on Oprah, I’d be on Ellen because I have worked with titans of industry, professional athletes, professional, Hollywood icons. There’s a list that goes on and on. Hey, can one of your guys just put on Facebook how life-changing this program was. But when my wolf is being fed, I’m taking what I’ve learned, and I’m helping other people change their lives and driving results quicker than they were able to get someplace else, better and bigger than they were able to get someplace else because most of my clients come to me on the heels of inpatient stays, years and years and years of therapy. So that’s when I’m on fire when I’m driving those results, and that’s what feeds me.
Gary S:
As we say on Beyond the Crucible, it’s not time to land the plane yet, but the captain has turned on the fasten seat belt sign. And one thing that we want to make sure that we get to is for listeners who are hearing what you’re saying, Craig, and who believe that you may be able to help them in some way, how can folks engage with the Mindful Habit and with you?
Craig P:
Sure. Absolutely. Thank you, Gary. First is I have a podcast available on all major platforms called Sex, Afflictions and Porn Addiction. So, a whole bunch of great episodes there where I speak my heart and my truth, and some great interviews as well. My website is www.themindfulhabit.com. There’s some free training there, there’s ways to contact me, there’s a phone number. I’ve got a receptionist who’s ready for your call. So yeah, go to the website and reach out if you are struggling and you need help.
Warwick F:
One question I have is obviously, you mentioned, you have a particular focus on people with sexual addictions, that kind of thing. But I have a feeling this mindfulness concept of living a life on purpose, feeding the right wolf, kind of being who you were designed to be helping others, that that could help people with other addictions, even other challenges. Maybe they got fired and they feel worthless. They’re in the wrong slot or round peg in a square hole. So I know you have a particular focus, but do you feel like that your whole mindfulness concept can help a broader group of people too?
Craig P:
Yes. And so what I’ve done is I’ve taken certain aspects of mindfulness and made them very practical, being mindful of your triggers, of your thoughts. And quite frankly, for every addiction, you know what I think the real addiction is, the addiction is to our thoughts, those repeating thoughts over and over and over again. So, I’ve got a five year plan. I talked about that, all these people say how great I am. Warwick, you’re absolutely right.
Craig P:
My next product is a general addiction addicted to your thoughts product. We’re moving from my narrow, safe, secure place of sex and porn addiction into mainstream, and that’s happening in 2020. We’re super, super excited about that. And that’s I think going to open up just people to say, oh yeah, check this guy out. Now you can’t do that because if you refer someone to me, a friend, the friend is going to say, wait a minute, how do you know about him even if the principle is deep and profound. So yeah, we’ve got a five year plan and we’re taking over and it’s going to be really exciting to see where this goes.
Gary S:
And it could lead to more people sharing on social media that they’re working with because you’ll be expanded and people will know exactly what they’re doing.
Craig P:
Exactly, exactly. That’s right. I mean, if I, I can’t, but if I did share my client list or if they shared that they worked with me, my life would be so dramatically different. Guys, it really is crazy, crazy, crazy. You’d be like, oh my god, wow. And what I’ve done is I created a system, it’s called the Mindful Habit System, and it goes back to my corporate days, which is, when I’ve got to teach a compliance item, I need a desired outcome, and I need learning objectives that are going to support that desired outcome. Those were things that were missing in my therapy. And those are things that my executive clients love that give them a framework, give them a structure, and they’re off to the races. And so, I built this system that’s centered around mindfulness and habits. I see them as these two opposites almost. And teaching people to be mindful of their habits has led to significant life change. So, we really got some fun things in store for sure.
Warwick F:
If we have to sum this all up, somebody might be listening right now, they’re at a low point, could be sexual porn addiction, addictions in general, or it could be just depressed life has just not turned out the way they want to, maybe they’re even thinking of suicide. Why should somebody at their lowest point see that as a gift, and as importantly, why should they have hope? Why should there be hope at your lowest point?
Craig P:
Think of the scene in the movie, I’m 49 so I remember the Rocky movie, Rocky is the boxer, the American boxer. And anybody who’s seen that movie remembers that scene in the movie, where he’s down, he’s down, he’s down, he’s been beaten again, he hasn’t blocked the punches, he’s getting older. And then there’s this step, this conscious choice to get up, and there’s that little shred of hope that at least that there’s something that’s better than this. And so I tell people, you are going to look back on this low point with a sense of pride, with a sense of learning and reverence, where this low point where you’re so out of alignment with who you think you are and who you want to be, that’s your gift. This is your body telling you that things are off and this is your inspiration and your motivation to get them back on. And that journey is incredible.
Gary S:
To continue the Rocky metaphor, I think I just heard the bell ringing. I think our bout, our round is done. The plane’s going to land. Let me summarize for you, listeners, what we’ve learned here today. And the first thing is the last point that Craig just made that Warwick asked Craig about and that is, your lowest point can be a gift. Warwick talks about it a lot, Crucible Leadership talks about it a lot. From your Crucible Experiences can be birthed a change in trajectory of your life that will lead you to a better place, a new chapter. It can feel really bad when you’re in it, it can feel devastating when you’re in it. But if you learn the lessons of it, if you’re mindful of it, as Craig talks about, you can write a new chapter to a new story that leads to significance and purpose. That’s really takeaway number one.
Gary S:
I think the second takeaway from what we heard Craig talk about today, and it’s so encouraging to me in working with Crucible Leadership to see when Crucible Leadership concepts are mirrored in another person’s concepts whose story couldn’t be more different from Warwick’s, but the bounce back and the insights are the same. And that’s this, Craig said, it takes courage to say I’m on the wrong track for my life. It takes courage. And so, we encourage you listener, if you’re in that place where you feel like you’re on the wrong track, if you feel like your purpose is not being fulfilled, you can muster that courage and you can look to something different that more aligns with what Warwick talks about, your vision and values, and what Craig has talked about about habits and mindfulness.
Gary S:
And then the last truly practical step that you can take, listener, is this. Craig mentioned it, it turned his life around. Warwick’s talked about it too. Find yourself a mentor, and not just any mentor, but look for someone, as Craig put it, someone who has walked in your shoes. When that moment happened for him, after failed attempts in therapy, failed attempts in bouncing back from these addictions that plagued him, that changed everything. He found a mentor who had walked in his shoes, and that mentor led him to a place that allowed him to get to where he is now. Both Warwick and Craig are examples of people who have leveraged the power of a mentor who understands to turn their life around and to live a life of significance.
Gary S:
So, thank you listeners for spending time with us, and we have a couple of quick favors to ask of you. One, if you liked what you heard here today with Craig Perra and Warwick talking about their crucibles and about how Craig came out of his through developing some mindfulness and some habits that changed the way he thought and acted, if you enjoyed this conversation, if you’ve enjoyed previous conversations, right now, you’re listening to this podcast on an app. There’s a subscription button somewhere on that app, we would ask you, please, to subscribe to the app. Helps you because you’ll never miss an episode, helps us because it helps us get this message out, get our guests out to more and more people.
Gary S:
And then the last thing that we would ask you to do because we think it can help you along the journey that you’re on. Warwick’s been on a journey, Craig’s just described his journey. We have at crucibleleadership.com an assessment you can take. It’s like a three minute assessment, very short. But what you’ll get out of that is a read back, some feedback that will tell you where you are on your journey from your Crucible Experience to establishing that life of significance. Where are you at and where do you need to focus your efforts to make sure that you’re successful in getting yourself towards significance, as Craig has been, and as Warwick has been, and as so many of you have told us already, you’re on that road and you’re pursuing your passions, you’re pursuing your purpose, and you’re off on a run to your life of significance.
Gary S:
So, until we get together next time, thank you for listening. And remember, your crucible experience is painful, it can be devastating. It can feel like it’s the end of the world. You can feel like there is no hope. But as Craig pointed out here today, that low point is a gift. And if you lean into that gift, you learn the lessons of that gift, you will begin to write a chapter in your life that is far from the end of your story, but is a new story that will lead to purpose and significance.
A crucible is a cauldron where metals are thrown together and heated to very high temperatures. The metals combine to form an alloy, something that is different than it was before. A crucible experience is one that Typically, when we face an obstacle, especially a major obstacle, we tend to think, at least in the moment, this is the end. Especially if it is a serious health diagnosis, the loss of a loved one, or losing your job or the company you started. That is normal. Our first reaction is almost never, “Oh joy! An obstacle! I am sure this will be a great learning experience. I can’t wait to see what unfolds.”
Significant obstacles set you back. They are often crushing. If it is an adverse health diagnosis, you might be thinking of the shortness of life, or perhaps the pain of treatment and the effect it will have on those you love. If it is getting fired, you might be angry at those who fired you and/or mad at yourself for not doing better. Major obstacles can lead to a range of emotions: anger, depression, self-doubt, fear, immobilization. Just thinking about next steps can seem impossible. You can’t get your head and emotions out of the bottom of the dark valley you are in.
So how do you get beyond obstacles? Can you reframe obstacles as opportunities, and how do you do this?
Reflect
The first step is to reflect on what happened and why. In an adverse health diagnosis for instance, often it is not your fault; it can be because of genetics or what you feel is just bad luck. Perhaps you smoked many packs of cigarettes a day or led an unhealthy lifestyle. You must come to terms with what has happened. Forgive yourself if part of the situation was your fault; or try not be angry at the world or God, depending on how you view things.
If part of it is your fault and it affects other people, perhaps there are words of contrition that need to be said; and some relational healing may be needed.
What are the lessons you may need to learn from this situation? In a business setting, getting fired, or in my case losing a business, should make you want to consider what happened and why. Did you make some mistakes? Were you in the wrong position given your gifts? That would be yes to both of those questions for me.
Glenn Williams is a great example of someone who stopped and reflected after leaving a high profile leadership position in a major nonprofit. He could have instantly leapt into another corporate-type job. After listening to some good counsel, he wisely did not. For more on Glenn’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Filmmaker and actor Robert Krantz also did some deep reflection after twin crucibles – one professional, one personal – hit him hard in the early 2000s. After the movie he sunk all his money and talent into failed due to circumstances largely beyond his control, his wife received a health diagnosis that threatened the lives of their unborn triplet sons. Krantz took a long look at what was really important in his life, and dedicated himself to his family rather than his career until his sons were old enough … and he pursued his professional calling with renewed passion. For more on Robert’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Reframe
Probably the biggest step forward after reflecting and forgiving yourself or others for what happened, is to reframe how this obstacle can be used as an opportunity.
Reframing an obstacle as an opportunity might seem impossible, but it is possible. People who have gone through great pain and suffering, have endured huge setbacks, typically have in common the desire, indeed the drive, to use that setback to help others.
David Charbonnet, a Navy SEAL, used the crushing setback of a parachuting accident that ended up with him being paraplegic, to head a veterans clinic designed to give veterans as much mobility as possible after enduring physical trauma like he did. He transformed a tragic thing that happened to him into an opportunity to do wonderful things for others. For more on David’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Esther Fleece Allen used her setback of being abandoned and abused to become a writer and speaker dedicated to helping others overcome tragedy and find a new sense of purpose. What had felt like lost years growing up, she saw as learning years as she matured. For more on Esther’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
When your life is dedicated to serving others, there is tremendous healing. Your life has a sense of purpose, a sense of significance. Getting your mind and emotions off your own problems and challenges and getting them focused on others and how to help them is the key. It also importantly brings purpose to your pain. You might not like what happened to you and wish it hadn’t happened, but using your pain to help others does help.
Cast a Vision
Finally, as you reflect on your desire to serve others, to use your pain for a purpose, might there be a vision here that needs to be explored? Talk to friends and family and advisers. Tell them you want to find a purpose to the pain and let them know some of the people you are trying to help. Together you might be able to take what you are already doing to help people to a whole other level; and indeed, a whole other level of giving purpose to your pain.
Jim Daly, president of the global family-help organization Focus on the Family, began life as a boy in desperate need of family help. He was abandoned by his alcoholic father, his mother died of cancer and his stepdad skipped out on the family the day of her funeral: all before Jim was 10. Jim says, “Oftentimes, our pain bears our passion” – and that’s just what it did for him as he embarked on his ministry career. For more on Jim’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Ed Kressy, at the lowest point of his life after drugs and substance abuse left him destitute and homeless, began helping people through community groups, the local police in San Francisco, and the FBI. Helping others was the key to his path back. You can hear Ed’s story in an upcoming BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Obstacles, especially devastating setbacks, can be crushing. They can feel impossible to overcome, and impossible to bounce back from. But if you reflect on what happened and why, consider how your pain can be for a purpose, and think how that can lead to a vision to serve others; you can indeed get past a crushing setback. You can see your obstacle as an opportunity to make a difference in the world by serving others.
Reflection
Why did your devastating setback happen and what can you learn from it?
How can your pain be used for a purpose, that in some way can help others?
What vision do you have that would use your pain to serve others?
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Jim Daly was abandoned by his alcoholic father at 5, lost his mother to cancer four years later and had no one to turn to but his four older siblings when their stepfather emptied the family home and left them to fend for themselves on the day they buried their Mom. Before he had turned 10, he was living with a dysfunctional foster family and thinking it was all just part of the “normal” life all kids lived. But buoyed by a hopeful spirit, he embraced the structure his teenage years brought at school and through sports — and gradually charted a course for the kind of life he once never dreamed possible. Today, fifteen years into his role as president of the international nonprofit Focus on the Family, he surprises the press by meeting with ideological opponents and continues to oversee innovative programs that in just the last year have helped 780,000 couples build stronger marriages and 950,000 moms and dads raise happier, more resilient children. Daly talks with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax about why a life of significance has nothing to do with job titles and how all that childhood pain now fuels his ministry passions and accomplishments.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Hey, everybody, welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And our podcast is focused on crucible moments, those experiences in life that can be extraordinarily difficult, very painful, can change the trajectory of our lives. But we talk about them in the context of this podcast, not to camp out on them, not to dwell on them in a negative way, not to sort of wallow in them, but to use them as jumping off points to lead a life of significance. And with me, as always, is the architect of Crucible Leadership and the host of the show, Warwick Fairfax.
Warwick F:
Hey, Gary.
Gary S:
We got a good one today and I know this because I’m about to read his bio, but I know this because one thing not in his official bio is that I called him boss for about 10 years and I still call him friend. So that’s something that’s not in the official bio, but this is how I know it’s going to be a good show. So, our guest today is Jim Daly. Jim Daly is president of Focus on the Family and host of its daily radio broadcast heard by more than 6.6 million listeners a week on more than 1000 radio stations across the US.
Gary S:
In March of 2019, Jim celebrated, hard to believe, his 30th anniversary with Focus on the Family. Jim’s personal journey from orphan to head of an international Christian organization dedicated to helping families thrive is we’ll discover a powerful story. Abandoned by his alcoholic father at age five, he lost his mother to cancer four years later, a wound deepened when his grieving stepfather emptied the family home and left Jim, the youngest of five children and his siblings to fend for themselves after their mother’s funeral. Several tough years followed, including time in foster care, before Jim became a Christian in high school and found meaning, purpose and a sense of belonging.
Gary S:
Jim was named president of Focus on the Family in 2005. Under his leadership, the organization has taken on a role nationally in encouraging and helping facilitate foster care adoptions, earning recognition from the White House and Congress for its efforts. The ministry also has reinvigorated its traditional focus on helping couples build strong marriages and raise healthy and resilient kids. I love this part, in just the last 12 months with the help of Focus on the Family, research indicates that 780,000 couples have built stronger marriages, and 950,000 moms and dads build stronger, healthier and more God-honoring families.
Gary S:
Jim has been married to his lovely wife, Jean, since 1986. They have two sons and reside in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Warwick, take it away.
Warwick F:
Wow. Well, Jim, it’s just such an honor to have you. I mean, Focus on the Family, as you know, I grew up in Australia and listened to that in Australia and Dr. Dobson, and years ago and the work that your organization does in helping families, especially in the world we live in, which is so many single parent families. It’s just tough out there. Your organization’s a beacon of light, just helping families and has done for decades. So, love to hear more about that just in a bit.
Warwick F:
With crucible leadership, we love hearing people’s stories of adversity. Clearly just with your bio, you grew up in some pretty difficult challenges. So, just talk a bit about, I know we heard in the bio, but how you grew up and just some of those pretty tough challenges. You had it about as rough as anybody growing up.
Jim D:
The great thing about being a child you don’t know any better. Fundamentally, you think everybody’s in the same boat. That’s kind of the attitude I had. I was sure that others had it worse off than I had it. And I don’t know where I found that little sliver of wisdom to figure that out. But at least I was eating and I was sleeping in a warm place. And it’s just so funny when you’re a kid, you think, okay, that’s good enough, I can handle the rest on my own. It was an amazing thing.
Jim D:
I think the other key thing that I’ve come to learn is how much resiliency is in a child’s heart. Being in a marriage and parenting organization, I think from a perspective of faith, which is where I come from, it’s a great design that God put that kind of resiliencies in children’s hearts because parents let kids down all the time for all variety of reasons. We don’t come with a perfect parenting approach. And I think, even like the love I had for my alcoholic father was deep even though he was a disappointment as a dad, but I still loved him, despite all those things. And all the promises he made but never kept.
Jim D:
So, for me, it was just part of my story, it was the short straw. It’s one of the hardest questions I get asked when I’m speaking is how did you get keep your joy as a child. Again, my faith is the only thing that explains that, that I believed that I was made for a purpose and that God was with me even in my valleys. I had a lot of them.
Warwick F:
So your father abandoned you first, it was at age five or?
Jim D:
I was the youngest of five kids. I was six years from my closest sibling, so I was the accident, the oops baby. They were all one year apart, so they ran kind of as a pack in high school, they were almost all in high school at the same time. And then I was probably starting kindergarten at that time. I was really distant from them in every way, emotionally, age, everything. And then when my mom got cancer, she died of colon cancer, they kind of kept it from me because nobody felt like a child can handle it. So, one piece of advice I have for people is if you’re going through difficulty as a parent, let your kids in on it in an age-appropriate way.
Jim D:
For me I had to go from having a normal dysfunctional family to all of a sudden learning one Saturday morning that my mom had died the night before. And it wasn’t expected, I wasn’t anticipating it, I couldn’t read the signs and put it all together. So, it was a jolt to me to learn that the person who was the most loving kind person in my life all of a sudden was gone. I didn’t even have a chance to say goodbye to her.
Warwick F:
I understand that your stepfather left pretty soon after that.
Jim D:
Well, it was crazy. Hank, I called him Hank the Tank, he was a former military drill sergeant, and he fit the stereotype. He loved my mom, and as I got older, I had better appreciation for that than I did at the moment. He didn’t like the kids. He even called us baggage at one point. We knew that we were not something that he cared for but he loved my mom enough. And I think ironically, my mom needed that kind of support as she was dying. They were only married a year and a half. But it was the day of her funeral we came back, she accepted Christ the day before she died again as a spiritual element here. It was phenomenal. Her funeral was amazing. The clouds made like a staircase leading up into the sky and my oldest brother Mike, that was the beginning of a spiritual journey for him.
Jim D:
But we got back to the house after the funeral and everything was gone, all of our furniture, and it was our furniture, not Hank’s furniture. But he had sold it. We had little boxes in the living room of our stuff, my handful of toys and my clothes were in one box and the other sibling stuff was in a box of their own. And Hank came out of the back bedroom with his luggage packed and he had two big suitcases in each fist. And he just said, “you know, I can’t take the pressure of raising your kids so I’m gone.” And we were like, well, what do we do? And we went into foster care.
Warwick F:
And how old were you at the time when your step dad left?
Jim D:
I was nine years old, nine years old.
Warwick F:
At that point, obviously, you’ve lost both parents, a step father’s just walked out. It’s probably a dumb question, but where were you at that point just emotionally and everything? Were you like, the world is over and like, if there’s a God, how can this possibly happen? What’s the deal here?
Jim D:
I think it was a bunch of emotions. I mean, the one was abandonment, but I wasn’t mad at my mom. I knew she couldn’t control a disease. I was cognizant enough to understand that. But at the same time, I felt like everybody was walking out on me. In Hank’s case, literally. And so, I think it was a lot of despair and loneliness. That’s the best way I could describe it. Yet there was a normalcy to everything else. School, friends. It’s the strangest status to be in that moment. I remember the fourth grade class at Bixby Elementary, they sent me a handmade card, a big card with everybody’s note in there. We’re sorry, Jim, we hope you have a good life.
Jim D:
And then of course, the funeral was on a Saturday, and by Monday, I was moving into foster care 160 miles away. Little town called Morongo valley with this family that my brother knew one of their sons, Paul, and ironically, their last name, we got to find God’s sense of humor in all this, but it was the Real family. They were like the most unreal family. And I always say the precursor is they did provide for us. They gave us shelter, which was nice. If we were dysfunctional, they were very dysfunctional and that was unfortunate. They had four sons all in a state of disarray.
Warwick F:
So it sounds like it didn’t really get a whole lot better with foster care. You had a roof over your head but it wasn’t like you had this ideal picture perfect family.
Jim D:
I can remember walking, it was Mr. Todd, my fourth grade, I was ending my fourth grade year. My mom died in March, and so April, May. And I remember just walking out of his class. During instruction, he’d be up there talking about conjugating verbs or something, they were in a different place, educationally, they were covering different material than I was at Bixby Elementary. And I just remember feeling like I can’t do this, I’m sad, I’m lonely. And I would literally just walk out of his class and sit on a sand hill and cry at Morongo Elementary School. A little nurse would come out, Nurse Bandy, and she’d put her arm around me and say, “You’re going to be okay, Jimmy. Things are going to be okay.”
Jim D:
And I would think to myself as a nine year old boy, she doesn’t know what I’m walking back into. I get on that bus and I go back to the Real family, and hunker down and try to hide basically emotionally, physically because I just didn’t want to engage them. They were just not healthy people.
Jim D:
And so, I ended up living there for a year and then my bio dad found me. My biological father, my alcoholic father, he learned that my mom had died, he didn’t know what happened to us. He had been trying to track us down. It kind of took him that year to find us through social services. He came out to visit at the Reals. It was at about probably the one year point. And he came out and I kind of just clung to his leg like a kid does. As he walked around all day, I just held on to him. And at the end of the day, being at the Reals, he said, “Would you want to move back in with me?”
Jim D:
And it was kind of that, for those people who are watching that maybe grew up in an alcoholic home, it was kind of the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde response, which was yeah, yes. And then quietly I was thinking, which dad am I going to get. But it had to be far better than this. And that’s that resiliency of a child’s heart I was talking about. I was all in. Dad, I don’t mind if you’re still drinking, I just got to get out of this place. I didn’t say it but it’s what I was thinking. I moved back in.
Warwick F:
With a few years with your dad or?
Jim D:
Actually only one year. Moved in for a year. We ended up having a family gathering because my sister closest to age in me was now turning 18 and she was going to be moving out. And the siblings didn’t think I should remain with my dad who was still struggling, not as bad, but there were episodes where he would binge drink and be passed out. I would step in to make sure everything got done. Yeah, at the end of that year, my family said, we need to get together, you’ve got to tell dad because he’s not going to understand it from us. I think I’m 11 years old at this point.
Warwick F:
Oh my gosh.
Jim D:
I remember having the family conference and I remember looking at my dad, saying, “I don’t think I should live with you anymore.” I’m looking this way because that’s where he was sitting, at the moment, it was off to my 11 o’clock. And I remember looking at him and just saying, “Dad, I don’t think I should live with you.” And he looked at me and he said, “Well, why not?” And nobody had prepped me for that question which would have been very helpful as an 11 year old. But I just looked at him after a moment, which felt like eternity and I sat there going, how do I answer this, how do I answer this. And I’m afraid, I’m scared that I’m not going to answer correctly, I’m going to wound him. All those emotions are running through my heart.
Jim D:
And I just looked at him and this is what came to my mind, and I looked at him, I said, “Because of how you treated mom, I don’t think I can live with you by myself.” Imagine your 11 year old saying that. To his credit, he stood up, walked across the room to me, he hugged me, which was very much like my father. Some of the fondest memories were him just putting his hand through my hair and saying, I love you. And he came over and he hugged me. And he said, “I understand that I wasn’t a good husband, I’m not a good father.” And he walked out of the room out of the house, basically moved to Reno, Nevada. That was the last time I saw him. He ended up dying within about four months of exposure. He was drunk and went into an abandoned building in the winter and froze to death. And that was hard.
Warwick F:
That was just an amazing, it’s amazing you had the courage to say that. And he obviously heard that at least at some level. So that’s an incredibly tough upbringing. How did you get beyond that? Where you are now. If you looked at who you were there at 11, and somebody said, you know, he’s got a head up a massive nonprofit, you would have said, probably not, not seeing it. How did you get beyond such terrible circumstances?
Jim D:
The one thing that I always had, it was a strange thing, it was just this hope, I always had hope. You can knock me down but I always got up. There’s always tomorrow, there’s always something better around the corner. I just had that attitude in my heart. When I was that five year old and my dad left. Going back to that five year old state, I remember my dad saying to me, he wasn’t living with us, and this is something in my own parenting that I really remembered and tried never to do, which is to break a promise. And the reason was that when I was five, or seven, I was having my seventh birthday, and my dad, I had seen him briefly for a moment, he said, “Hey, I’m going to bring you a baseball mitt for your seventh birthday,” which was only about a week or two away.
Jim D:
I remember on that day, my birthday, a friend of mine was over at our house spending time with me. And I’d run to the curb every 15 minutes and look up and down the street looking for my dad. And he never came. I remember Ricky, my friend at the end of the day, it was probably like 6:37, the evening was there, the sun’s going down and it was our last trek to the curb to look for my dad. And I remember him just kind of hitting me gently in the shoulder saying, “Hey, it’s okay. It’s okay.” And he went home and I remember walking back into my house thinking that it’s not okay. And it was that great lesson for me with my own boys that are now 19 and 17, one thing I always tried to do is to make very few promises. And then when I had made a promise to always keep it because of the pain it caused me, my dad let me down, that I wasn’t worth it, that he couldn’t keep his word. Even if he didn’t bring the mitt, I could care less. I just wanted to see if he would show up on my birthday. Man, absolutely.
Jim D:
So then, what did I learn and where did I go from there? I moved in with my brother who was 19 married to his 16 year old girlfriend and that had its own challenges. I went to junior high and high school living with my brother, who at that time went through two wives. And we lived as bachelors for a period of time during that. I remember playing football, varsity football at the high school. I’d say, “I’m going to be out after the game tonight going to party.” He’d say, “Okay, that’s no problem.” I’d say, “what time you want me to come home?” He’d say, “two, three in the morning should work.” And I literally would walk out thinking I’ll try to stay out that late. It became a challenge for me, I could stay out till three in the morning. That’s the kind of parental leadership I had.
Warwick F:
Kind of non-existent. But I-
Jim D:
You know, go ahead.
Warwick F:
I was going to say, you said you had hope, but there must have been something that led you to follow a different path and your dad stepped out or even some of your siblings. What led you to have a path that was a bit more constructive in life than what you’d grown up with?
Jim D:
One of the things for me, structure became important and I found structure in school and in sports. So I played sports, I played football, basketball, baseball through the school year. I was good enough, I made the teams, I started, and it was all fun. It kept me really busy in every way. I think with my siblings, I don’t share this very often, but living with my brother, watching him make the choices that he made in a weird way, it opened a window of wisdom to me because I can remember, why would he go out with that woman? Can’t he see that she’s no good. And then they’d be married for eight, nine months and then divorced. And it upset me. I think in some ways, I had resentment toward him, that he didn’t have better decision making ability. But it also informed me in an indirect way about making better choices. And so I think that really helped me.
Jim D:
And then, when I was 15, I had a football coach, Paul Morrow, who just died last year, I was at his funeral, I spoke at his funeral because we got him his rookie year out of Cal State Long Beach. And he was gung ho, and he just really kind of the typical thing, when he saw me kind of lagging on the football field, he’d grab my face mask and kind of jerked me around. “If you’re going to lead this team then you must finish the wind sprints first.” Probably illegal today, but it got my attention. This was like, the first time in my life I had a man calling me out to be something more than a wounded boy.
Jim D:
And I responded, thankfully. I didn’t resent it. In fact, I loved it. And the harder he was on me to perform in the football sense, the more I responded. And then one day he said, “Hey, I’d like to go to a Fellowship of Christian Athletes camp at Point Loma. I’ll pay the money for you to go but we’re going down.” Probably about eight of us from that football team went, there’s probably 40 guys at this camp. And then we had a professional, actually a quarterback from San Diego Chargers came down and he said, “Have men let you down? Has your stepfather let you down?” I was like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to me. Thought he was going to say, Has Mr. Real let you down. But it was that close to my heart and it just compelled me and I became a Christian. And believe me, I wobbled. I was 15 but I still was doing things I shouldn’t do up until about 22, really. I had this battle going on in my heart up until 22.
Jim D:
And then at 22, ironically, I went to college, paid my way through college. I worked. I ended up going to the University of Waseda in Japan on overseas study program. And again, I think just all of that structure where I could excel and succeed, I leaned into that. So I didn’t do drugs, I didn’t fall in that direction, which I easily could have. I think from my perspective, it was God’s hand, it was just the Lord saying, it’s a better way, let me show you a better way. It’s the book of Proverbs.
Warwick F:
I think there are some really important insights, just the power of both positive role models in your coach but negative role models as listeners will know from my story growing up in a very wealthy family media business in Australia. It was founded by a strong believer but at the time I grew up, there was a lot of power of money, pride, arrogance, some other family members who were just sort of about the money and didn’t work that hard.
Warwick F:
And yeah, so for me, I can relate at one level as that sort of negative role model was like that’s not going to be me. I’m going to work hard, I’m not going to be some arrogant Fairfax, which in Sydney, meant a lot. Positive role models, I don’t know, I probably had some faith was certainly a cornerstone. But it is amazing, the power of a negative role model to say, I’m not going to be that person, I’m going to be different. You make a choice. Maybe it’s, obviously, from our perspective, it’s God’s hand putting people in your life. And for me, I came to faith in Christ at an evangelical Anglican Church at Oxford. He has his hand on each of us.
Warwick F:
So it sounds like you chose a different track. You didn’t go obviously from college right to Focus. You had some other things that you were doing. When you were in college, did you say gosh, I want to be a missionary or?
Jim D:
Are you kidding me? When I was in college it was how do I make money because money is what you live on. There was a point in college, this is one of the saddest, probably, I was a sophomore, I was at Cal State San Bernardino. I got in at UC San Diego and a few other schools in California, but I decided I wanted to be close to my brother. I mean, again, just that weird attachment probably like PTSD. I thought, okay, he might need my help or I might need his help so I’ll stay close. So I turned down UC San Diego, which would have been great. Went to Cal State San Bernardino. Probably told you more about my SAT score than I want to share.
Jim D:
When I was there as a sophomore, I remember there was one point I really wasn’t connected with my siblings, they were all struggling in their own way, they were living their own lives. They were older than me. Some were married, some were having children, some were struggling with other issues. But I just wasn’t connected, I wasn’t talking to them on the phone. They didn’t know what my situation was. I remember Christmas was coming my sophomore year at university. I had nowhere to go. I mean, literally, I had nowhere to go. So I had to go to the school and petition that I could live in the dorms for that three weeks that we were going to be out.
Jim D:
And I remember them saying, there’s not going to be any electricity on. You can stay there and we’ll make an exception, but you literally outside of the security team covering this 400 acre campus, you’re going to be the only person here. I was like, I’ll do it, I have no choice. That was a lonely experience being on this sprawling campus and going back to these seven or eight dorms with literally no human being there. I’m the only car in the parking lot. And with no electricity. I had a candle, a flashlight. I was very lonely. Again, it was this feelings as a nine year old boy losing my mom. That was kind of the theme through all those years was just this desperate loneliness. I’m so thankful to say today I don’t have that feeling any longer.
Gary S:
I know that we’re going to turn a little bit here in a bit and talk about the life of significance, Jim, that you’ve built. But I want the listeners to really focus on something extremely important about what we’ve heard, not even what we’ve been talking about. Jim has described some truly traumatic, painful experiences in his life. And have you heard listener, the joy in his voice, the joy in his heart? It is possible to come out on the other side. If you’re going through a crucible experience right now, remember this conversation because I know Jim, I know what he’s been through.
Gary S:
But just listening to him, he’s not making light of the situations that happened to him, but he’s got joy because he found opportunities, as he said, he looked for hope, he always had hope. He always tried to find hope in the most, what some people would see as hopeless situations. That is an important thing for listeners who are going through their own crucibles to remember. You can have joy, which isn’t circumstantial, that’s internal. You can have joy even in circumstances that are terribly, terribly difficult.
Jim D:
So true, so true. And I think that’s the core again, with my Christian faith, it informs me. There’s a wonderful verse in the Bible that says he is close to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit. In many ways, that’s my life verse. I think the differences, I have friends that have had only mountaintop experiences, kind of what you were describing, your family experience. Money brings a lot of ease to life. You can pay for things like education, you can go to the best colleges and all those things. If you have a golden touch and you’re capable, you can write bestselling books, you can start organizations, you can do a lot of good things.
Jim D:
But I’m telling you, your character is formed in the valley. And some of the weakest people that I’ve encountered are people that have never had valley experiences.
Warwick F:
And that’s something that’s hard for people understand, there is blessings in setback. My setback is very different. For me, it was the $2 billion takeover to try to resurrect the company in the image of the founder. And I was young, naive, idealistic, a person of faith. That ended, and so I was responsible for ending 150 year old family business. I still have a Wikipedia entry and it’s not particularly favorable. Young hot-headed kid who could have had it all, naive, made stupid decision and lost at all. If you google me, that’s what it is. You obviously don’t want to be defined by Google or Wikipedia, at least in my case. It gives you a sense of humility, it makes you less prone to judge other people when you’ve made your own.
Warwick F:
I didn’t deliberately try to hurt anybody but I just made a lot of dumb mistakes. Yeah, it does test your character. So, obviously, you live an incredible life of significance. So you’re in college, don’t really have a community. How did you get to a point where you feel like you are serving other people, serving a higher purpose, serving what God called you to? How did life change from college?
Jim D:
Again, I did a business degree. I thought the best thing I could do, one, to take care of myself and my hopefully future family is I have to do well, I have to earn money. So I went to work, I worked for International Paper, I worked in the paper industry for about seven years. And again, I found a great mentor in that environment too, Jeff Eaves who was a tremendous friend, much like coach Paul Morrow, he kind of picked up where Paul Morrow left off and kind of hewned me in a great way and develop even my moral principles. He was not a Christian but he was a very good guy.
Jim D:
I evolved into that, I ended up going on a plant tour. I was working out of college, I worked for a Christian organization briefly and I ended up on a plant tour at the International Paper. And I ended up accepting a job offer they made me about a week later. They called and said, “You impressed us on that plant tour and we’d like to hire you.” So I did. And so I went seven years in that industry. And then I got a call from a friend. And one of the things that’s so important, I think, again, from the Christian perspective, I was just willing to get up every day and do the best I could do, to work as hard as I could work that day. And then, I’m going to trust God for the rest.
Jim D:
I mean, this thing really unfolded in such a miraculous way. So I had a friend that I met at Campus Crusade, that organization I worked for briefly, Ron Wilson, who’s still here at Focus on the Family. And I called him because there was a gentleman that was a customer of mine and I wanted to introduce him to other Christians. I just felt that, his son worked at Campus Crusade, ironically. I was up in the Bay Area, but I wanted this man to be surrounded by people that knew God and I thought he had a heart for those things and was open.
Jim D:
So I ended up calling Ron. And at the end of the conversation, he said, “Have you ever thought about working in nonprofit again?” I said, “Not really because I want to eat.” That’s a good orphan kid response, I want to eat. I’ve made up for it, obviously. But the point of it is, he said, “There’s a position coming open at Focus on the Family. I’d love to call you. Should be two or three weeks.” I said, “Okay, give me a call, I’ll take a look at it.” And 10 months went by. And I remember just praying, saying, God, I don’t want to push a door open, and so I’m not going to call Ron back. If you want to make it happen, I’ll just sit patiently.
Jim D:
Well, these 10 months go by. Wednesday night, I go out to dinner with the plant manager at IP in San Francisco. And he says, “Hey, we’re going to give you a promotion.” I went, “Wow, that’s great.” And here’s what it is. And I thought to myself, this is why the other thing didn’t open up. I get home and my wife Jean says, “Hey, there’s a message on the machine, I didn’t really listen to it.” Well, that was Ron calling me back 10 months later on the very night I got the promotion offer, saying, “Hey, we got the position.” So I called Ron back the next day on Thursday. I flew down with Jean on Friday to interview with Dr. Dobson, everybody at Focus, Saturday, they made a job offer. And I think I turned down 150,000 for 32,000. I remember my dear, amazing wife, I said, “What do you think we should do?” And she said, “I trust whatever you’d like to do, I believe God will be with you.” Isn’t that awesome?
Warwick F:
What led you to make that choice because given the way you grew up with nothing, turning down that much money, it’s not like you didn’t understand the consequences.
Jim D:
Absolutely. But I think the thing is, to your point earlier, oftentimes, our pain bears our passion. And that’s the case for me. I thought of those kids that could be helped if I went to Focus on the Family. What an amazing thing as an orphan kid, I could maybe help other children not suffer the things that I suffered through divorce, through addiction, etc. And that was just always in the back of my mind, what little role could I play in this organization. And to your point earlier, little did I know, 30 years later after being here at Focus that I would become president at Focus on the Family. That’s still a bizarre.
Warwick F:
Well, it is. I don’t know. I mean, for me as I tell my story and try to help others, there is a little bit of a healing balm when you can use your pain to help others. Obviously, for me, it’s my faith in Christ and the fact that he loves me unconditionally was the cornerstone of my recovery and having a wife like you who loves me unconditionally. I have three kids, two boys and a girl. That’s all part of a wonderful plan. My dad was married three times, my mother twice, I was from the last marriage of each. I tell them, you have no idea how lucky you are. To be married 30 years and they have a wonderful mother. I mean, they’re just clueless as to how blessed. I’m sure you probably with your two boys. Maybe you don’t tell them that, maybe you do.
Jim D:
No, I do.
Warwick F:
You don’t realize there are alternatives. But did you feel like as you’re working with Focus that there was a healing element as you were able to use your pain to help others in some fashion?
Jim D:
I think there was. Did I recognize it? Probably not like I should have. I think, again, it’s funny, I’ve always had this mentality of waking up each day and just putting my left foot in front of my right foot. It’s just been one of those things. It’s kind of like, I can remember, to give you an area where I fell short. I remember 15, 16 years ago, my wife’s brother committed suicide. Life’s experiences come to the surface in these moments. I can remember my wife really struggling, obviously, with the fact that her brother had died. And much to my discredit, I mean, my orphan survivor mentality was to try to encourage her by saying, “You know what, we got to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps. We got to get moving. We’ve got to overcome this.” I thought that was a positive thing to say.
Jim D:
And I remember she looked at me and said, “Jim, not all of us can do that. You can but I can’t. I’ve got to grieve.” Man, it put me right back on my heels because I, then I’m going, okay, have I grieved properly? And I don’t think I ever had really. I just got up every morning and started going. And I don’t think I ever stopped-
Warwick F:
That’s a challenge. You have to keep moving on but certainly one of the things I found is unless you can grieve and deal with some of the pain and the past and the anger and disappointment, yeah, it stops you from fully moving on. It’s a process. It takes a while.
Warwick F:
So, just this last couple minutes here. You’ve been president of Focus for quite a number of years now. Everybody thinks Dr. Dobson but you’ve been president-
Jim D:
15.
Warwick F:
So, it’s always challenging, just looking at it more broadly when you inherit the mantle from a beloved founder. Inevitably, every new leader wants to put their own stamp or they might feel called to move things in a different direction. Obviously, Focus is an organization that people know something about. From what I’ve read, I think you, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but you wanted to sort of maybe return it to its roots or refocus its mission. I don’t know how you would describe it. Does that make sense? I’m trying to think of the right diplomatic way to put that.
Jim D:
It comes down to a meeting I had with Dr. Dobson right toward the end of his time in 2010. He stepped out of February 2010. But I can remember probably around December, January, right before he stepped out, he asked me to do an audit on the broadcast just to take a measure of the content that we had done in the previous three years. I was kind of eager to do that because I thought I knew how it would turn out, and it turned out the direction I thought it would but even more intensely.
Jim D:
And what happened is we had only had one new marriage program recorded in that three year period. So we did re-airs but we weren’t recording new programming. For three years, only one new marriage program. We had about 26 parenting programs that were new in that three year period, but we had 128 policy programs. And that’s where his interests lied. It was in this idea, understandably, that if I work hard in that government area, we can get some things corrected. And he had said to me one day, “I’ve kind of said all I could say about marriage and parenting, and that’s why my energy is directed here.” So I get it. As a 70 something year old man, I think he was turning to the handles that he felt he could make some change.
Jim D:
Yet at the same time, our audience is 68% females, a lot of moms who were saying, how do I keep my marriage together? How do I raise children that honor God and can succeed? So I really wanted us to get back to those basics which now we’re at 80% programming on marriage and parenting, proud to say.
Warwick F:
And again, another lesson for leaders, I’m reminded of a book, Mission Drift, that you’re probably familiar with.
Jim D:
Exactly right.
Warwick F:
And it doesn’t mean to say other missions are wrong, but Focus was founded to help families. And there’s a huge need for that, you can get into other areas that can be more controversial. There’s absolutely a place for that. But the question is is that Focus’ role versus some other organization because if you start trying to do everything, you tend to do nothing particularly well. And that’s not a right or wrong thing, it’s just a matter of a choice. And you obviously, with your background, had a huge passion for the family, huge need. It shows a lot of courage to say, I respect and revere the founder, but with all due respect, I just feel like we need to focus on the family, so to speak, that is the name of the organization, right?
Jim D:
So true. It was so hard in that moment because Dr. Dobson like Chuck Colson or Billy Graham, he’s an iconic figure, beloved, and I got that. It’s interesting, when you’re doing a transition like that, I remember the first question I received and Gary was nearby as our VP of media at the time. And the first question, I think it was an AP reporter when the transition had been formally announced, we did the invocation. And then Dr. Dobson and I went to a media moment, and the reporter said, “How are you going to fill his shoes?” And I remember just thinking for a minute, and I just quickly responded, “I can’t, I can’t fill his shoes. I got to get my own pair of shoes.” And that’s true.
Jim D:
And I think for those who are taking over, particularly from a founder, you’re going to have some turbulence, because you cannot do it the same way. And anything you can convey to that founder to say, I love you, I respect you, but I can’t think like you always. Some things like dress code or some of the other things, we’re going to do it differently. And I remember one of the best questions I asked, I felt Dr. Dobson, I said, you know, he said, “Just stay true to the principles.” And I think wisely I said, “Well, in your mind, what’s a principle?” And that was the question because he even responded in the context of the dress code is principle. Everything in the orbit of Focus was principle. And it can’t be, being pro-life, being pro marriage, being pro family, those are the core principles.
Warwick F:
One of the things I really admire is, obviously I understand the organization’s pro-life, pro-family, pro traditional marriage. But yet from what I’ve read is you’ve tried to meet with people who have different viewpoints. Doesn’t mean that you agree but in our divided political culture people just hurl insults at each other, which I personally don’t think helps. You can disagree with somebody strongly without calling them names. Talk a bit about that because that seemed, it’s different than some, like you disagree with them but you’re willing to meet and dialogue. That’s pretty impressive.
Jim D:
Absolutely. Actually, it should be the standard way that Christians go about living their lives. But unfortunately, you’re right, we get caught up into the human side of debates and conflict, and we lean into our human nature rather than God’s spiritual nature. And it’s hard. I mean, because it goes against the grain. But that’s been one of the things to reach out to the LGBTQ community, to reach out to the abortion community, to develop friendships so that we can have dialogue.
Jim D:
The one thing that, well, there’s many things that I’ve learned in that context, but a couple, one, for us, as Christians, if you’re calling yourself a Christian, then there’s two great commandments that God gives us and that’s to love him with all of our heart, soul and mind, and then to love our neighbor as ourself. The great thing is, especially that I’ve recognized in the LGBTQ community, those friendships that I reached out to, they responded very beautifully. And I can tell you, those friendships are genuine, they’re deep and they’re real, and they go on today. Things are changing.
Jim D:
When you sincerely show love and respect for another person, I think God has wired us in such a way that our hearts crack open to that person. We can’t resist that kind of love. And that’s why I think he said, love your neighbor. And when you do that, it’s amazing the connection that you’ll find. You don’t have to agree on everything but you can love your neighbor. God gives us that capacity, and that’s a good place to start.
Warwick F:
And it breaks down the barrier of people thinking that Christians are bigoted, judgemental, holier than thou, hypocrites, that a lot of other people think. I mean, that’s not helpful to the cause of Christ or the cause of Jesus if that’s what people think. But you loving other people, being clear about your position, it’s like, gosh, this Jim guy, he seemed like a decent human being. Who knew?
Jim D:
I appreciate that. One of the best compliments I received from one of these people that I reached out to, he’s the kind of guy I’d like to go have a beer with. I thought to myself, that’s probably something they may have said of the Lord. He hung out with that crowd. He seemed to be comfortable with them. When you said that, I mean, here’s a point for the Christian community listening, if the fruit of the Spirit is not present in our lives, there’s a problem because the Lord said, they’re going to know you and they’ll know me through the fruit, my fruit that they see in you.
Jim D:
So if you don’t have it, I would go back around and ask the Lord to make sure that his fruit, and this is love, joy, goodness, kindness, mercy, self-control, patience. If you don’t possess those things, it’s not a restaurant menu that you get to choose from. These things should be in your life and growing as a Christian. We can’t expect the world to operate from those principles.
Jim D:
Funny story quickly. I had lunch with David Horowitz, the former communist, he wrote a book called, How the Left is Trying to Kill Christianity, something like that. We’re at lunch and he goes, “Jim, Jim, don’t you realize that you Christians you’re in an alley fight and the other side has switchblades.” I said, “David, we’re not that stupid. We know they’re armed. The problem is we have to bring into the alley fight love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, mercy. Not the best implements in an alley fight, but they are God’s tools.”
Warwick F:
And think of Jesus, he’s in the garden, and Peter’s trying to get out the sword. And what does Jesus say? Okay, let’s go for it. No. Put down your sword, that’s not the way of Jesus.
Gary S:
In the time that we have left, Jim, I want to make sure that you get a chance to talk about this, talk about a life of significance. One of the things that Focus on the Family’s doing this summer, Alive 2020. Tell our listeners a little bit about what that is just so they …
Jim D:
Again, it’s something thankfully Focus has always been doing and that’s to help in the pro-life movement. And we started probably 15 years ago now, maybe a little longer, something called Option Ultrasound. And that was to place ultrasound machines in pregnancy resource clinics around the country. There’s a lot to that. We had to get them medically ready, we had to work with them, etc. But we’ve had over 800 machines placed in these locations, which has resulted in about I think now we’re at 459,000 babies saved. So these are women that have walked into the clinic, basically said, I’m abortion-minded, they see the ultrasound of their baby, they walk out saying, I’m going to keep the baby or let the baby be adopted. So that’s a great victory for what we believe.
Jim D:
So in New York, New York had gone so liberal on these laws and Governor Cuomo had signed into law basically that an abortion was doable up until the birth canal. And boy, just the energy of that, the negative energy, high fiving each other in the state legislature when that was passed, etc, it was repulsive. Even if you can pass it, do it with a heavy heart because you’re taking innocent human life. So that led us to do Alive from New York, and yes, I was sitting in my office I thought we need to call it Alive from New York. First, my general counsel, my lawyer’s saying, “You can’t do that.” He said, “Well, let’s wait till we get the letter.” The letter never came. My response in my mind was going to be, hey, I thought you guys were comedians. This is funny. But it never came.
Jim D:
And so we did it, we had about 20,000 people in Times Square. We did a late third trimester ultrasound of Abby Johnson, the former Planned Parenthood clinic director, who was pregnant at the time, eight months, and her baby Fulton was kicking away. And so, we did the live ultrasound along with great music and everything. We had about 400 protesters there and I just remember the first three speakers were African American Alveda King, Christina Bennett, and Benjamin Watson who played NFL football 15 years, just ended his career with the Patriots. I remember, one of them got up and said, “Hey, more black babies were killed in New York City last year than were born.” And I remember, the Black Lives Matters people, they looked at each other, threw their signs down, their protest signs and joined our group. And that was awesome. That was probably one of the greatest victories of the day.
Jim D:
But when that ultrasound came on, the protesters, their signs came down, their jaws hung open, they could hear the heartbeat. Probably the first time in their life they’ve actually seen an ultrasound and heard the heartbeat. And they simply walked away, they just walked away. And so we’re coming back May 9, a simulcast of five cities, LA, Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, to celebrate life, to show people the baby, and to make a simple statement that these people deserve our protection. This is the greatest human rights campaign in the country. And that’s what we’re going to stand for these voiceless children.
Warwick F:
Wow, that is so impressive. I remember watching that video that you talked about in New York just to see people’s faces just stop talking, stop shouting and look at the screen.
Jim D:
It was an amazing moment, it fell quiet.
Warwick F:
You obviously feel as we, I mean, obviously living a life of significance, doing what God is calling you to do. One of the things I always tell people is, leaders are at all levels. Few people are going to be heading up an organization as big as Focus on the Family. And it’s easy to think, well, gosh, Jim Daly is doing all this, what can I do? But to me, it’s, I don’t think God really cares whether you’re head of Focus on the Family or some neighborhood nonprofit or just helping a neighbor down the street. That’s all the same to him, not to minimize what you do. A lot of people will say, well, I might as well just pack it in because I’m never going to be Jim Daly and that kind of thing. I’m sure you have people sort of say that to you. That’s not the way God looks at it, right?
Jim D:
Not at all. Not at all. I mean, for me, I can remember I went to pick Trent, my oldest son up at school one day. I think he’s a freshman, I’d already been president for five years, and he jumped in the car and he goes, “Are you the president of Focus?” I said, “Why?” And he said, “Well, my friends told me you were the president, but I told them all you just worked at Focus.” That’s how insignificant the title is because it didn’t matter to me. And I said, “Yeah, I’m the president, but it doesn’t matter.” Probably the best parental lesson I ever gave my sons was in that moment.
Jim D:
And I would say, wake up every day to try to do your best in whatever you’re doing. Don’t let the ball and chain of your past bog you down. It shouldn’t, it doesn’t have to. Don’t live with that crap that took you down. And if you stay there, you’re in bondage. I’m telling you from a Christian perspective, that’s what life in Christ is all about, is freeing you from that. I meet so many people that were wounded in ways worse than me and maybe not as bad as me. But they’re stuck there. And I’m telling you, that is not the place to spend your one lifetime stuck in that kind of emotional bondage. Cut it loose, don’t hold it against your father, your mother, your sibling, whatever happened to you. It was probably very painful, but I’m telling you, it doesn’t work to live back there in the past. Cut it loose, live every day and do well and you’ll be blessed.
Warwick F:
That’s probably a final message. I know one of Gary’s phrase is time to land the plane, and certainly that. But what you said about forgiveness, certainly something I’ve had to learn just, certainly I’ve had my collection of people I needed to forgive as well as myself. You can’t move on and be whole unless you forgive. And you’ve had a lot of people that would require a lot of soul work to forgive. Biological father, foster parents, stepdad. But you obviously must have because you couldn’t be doing what you’re doing if you hadn’t. A huge lesson for everybody. Doesn’t mean that what they did is right, but for your own sanity and your own emotional well being, you got to be able to forgive. And so you’ve done that, which is such a blessing. So Gary, over to you.
Gary S:
Yes. Thank you, Jim Daly, for spending time with us. Thank you, listener, for spending time with us. It’s kind of fun for me to be talking to my old boss and my current boss at the same time. I get the last word which is fabulous. If you’ve heard anything in this podcast, listener, that you want to learn more about, you can visit us at crucibleleadership.com. We also have a favor to ask of you, if you found this enlightening, to help us get the message out to more people. And that is, on the app you’re listening to this podcast on now, click subscribe. That will make sure that you don’t miss any episodes and that you will help us share this with other people who’ve gone through crucibles and need to find the hope that Jim and Warwick talked about here today.
Gary S:
So until we’re together the next time, remember, the crucible experiences as we’ve discussed here can be painful. They can change your life, they can be difficult, but they are far, far, far from the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning, if you learn the lessons of them, if you apply the lessons of them, they can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story that can be the best chapter of all because it leads to a life of significance.
What do you hope your friends and loved ones remember about you after you’re gone? What words would you like spoken in your eulogy? Written on your headstone? In this thoughtful and insightful new episode, Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax explores practical ways we can live today in a manner that leaves a legacy that outlives us well into tomorrow. The key, he and co-host Gary Schneeberger discuss, is pursuing your career and caring for your family with the kind of character you want to define you in life … and beyond. “If it matters to you on your deathbed,” Warwick notes, “why not get a head start and do something about your legacy now?”
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everybody to this episode of Beyond The Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And you have clicked play, you have clicked download, you have clicked subscribe on a podcast that deals with what the title says; crucible experiences. It deals with them in the context of your leadership. Your crucible experiences are those things that can be failures, that can be traumatic, tragic, difficult circumstances in your life. It’s those pain points that we all experience and we talk about them in the context of this show to not wallow in them, not to live in the past, but to bring the past forward to the present and the future and to help us come away with hope for overcoming those crucibles, strategies for overcoming those crucibles, moving past those crucibles and then ultimately to charting a course to a life of significance.
Gary S:
I am joined as always by the founder of Crucible Leadership and the host of Beyond The Crucible, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, it’s great to be back together again.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. Looking forward to it.
Gary S:
I talked at the outset about how we talk about crucible experiences in order to not live in the past, but to bring the past into the present and then bring the past through the future and the subject that we’re going to talk about today is really one that is focused on how we live today in the present and how that affects the future. We’re going to talk today about legacy. And it’s something that comes up an awful lot in Warwick’s writings, an awful lot in just the conversations he has as he talks about what crucible leadership’s about.
Gary S:
So Warwick, I’m going to sit back and let the listeners know a little bit about what legacy is and isn’t and how we go about building a good one.
Warwick F:
Thanks, Gary. Legacy is sort of a bit of a loaded word. For me, like for a lot of people, you think of legacy, how do you want to be remembered by? For me, growing up, I think a lot of listeners would know, in a large family media business in Australia, legacy was an intimidating word. Sort of a concept that brought almost fear because the company was founded by my great, great grandfather, John Fairfax. He’d come out from England in the late 1830s and he founded this huge media company that, by the time I was growing up, had newspapers, TV stations, radio stations, magazines. It was an enormous company with thousands of employees. So the legacy was huge.
Warwick F:
So I grew up in an environment where my parents were hoping that I could continue the legacy of the founder. They would say to me, “You could be one of the great Fairfax’s,” which, to me, translated to having a legacy that would impact Australia, where I grew up, the nation, the landscape. Somehow make it a better place. My name would live on for, I don’t know, long time.
Warwick F:
So if you’d asked me then what’s a legacy, it would be carrying on the ideals of the founder and making a name that would somehow make its mark in history. I mean, that’s a mammoth benchmark. And what made it worse in a sense, as I’m reflecting on it, is my dad loved history. He was a big Anglophile, loved everything in terms of English history. So we would read about, talk about some of the great heroes, whether it’s the Duke of Wellington, the Battle of Waterloo and the Napoleonic Wars, or Admiral Horatio Nelson before the Battle of Trafalgar sending a signal to the fleet saying, “England expects every man to do is duty.” I mean, stirring stuff. That was kind of the model.
Warwick F:
I loved American history. So whether it’s Lincoln, Washington, all these great leaders in history and it’s like, “Well, that’s what it is to leave a legacy,” I suppose in my naivety and youth. So yeah, it almost felt like leaving a legacy. What’s your chances of that, like one in a million? I mean, I have a different view now, but legacy felt so intimidating. It’s like, “Well, why bother?” Who could leave a legacy like Churchill, Lincoln, Nelson, even my great, great grandfather? It’s like you just give up.
Gary S:
And here’s the good news to all of our listeners. You do not have to be Churchill. You do not have to be Washington. You do not have to be Admiral Horatio Nelson. What we’re going to talk about today, the aspect of legacy that we’re going to talk about, is not that grand, is not that historic making necessarily. Nothing wrong if it is, but the legacy that we’re going to talk about is a bit more personal in the sense that it affects a smaller group of people and it reflects on the way that you lived your life.
Gary S:
One of the things that you didn’t mention, Warwick, that is part of the story of your great, great grandfather’s legacy, he was a big name and Fairfax Media was a huge operation in Australia. But there was also, and we think about this a lot when we think of legacy, sometimes we go there first. Legacy is about money. Legacy is about what you leave materially to the generation that follows. And I know in your own case that was true with part of the legacy that John Fairfax left.
Warwick F:
Yes, no. It’s a good point that certainly he came out from England in the late 1830s with pretty much nothing and built this huge media business. And yes, over succeeding generations, it led to his kids, grandkids, great grandkids having a far better lifestyle. Certainly wealth, money, power. Yes, all that was there. But there’s really a greater legacy, which was helpful to me because his listeners will know, when I launched the $2.25 billion takeover in ’87 and several years later the company went under my stewardship, if I was just focused on the family business legacy, that would be a little devastating because I ended it.
Warwick F:
But yet I would say there was a greater legacy and it was more his character. He was a wonderful dad, a wonderful husband. His kids loved him, wife loved him, his employees loved him. When he died, these employees felt they’d lost a very valued friend, somebody that they really admired.
Warwick F:
So really the way he treated people, his character, he was a person of great faith, an elder of his church. There was a legacy in terms of faith and character that was passed down in my family through the generations. So while at the time the faith became a bit more traditional, there was always this legacy of service. Our family members never tried to manipulate news to push any particular agenda. The goal was always to try to have it independent and fair, and it’s not always a challenge and that can be in the eye of the beholder. But certainly there wasn’t a sense of trying to manipulate things.
Warwick F:
And it was a sense of just service to the community. So the values and character, and certainly for me, the model of his faith, that was a legacy that was carried down through the generations. And ultimately now that’s more what I think of. Not so much, “Oh, what a great boss and he founded this newspaper business,” and that was good. That was a good legacy. I won’t shortchange it at all. But there was a greater legacy. And the greater legacy was more a combination of his character, faith, values how he treated people, and we’ll get to this more later, but think of the scripture, “What should it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul.”
Warwick F:
And I think, so what if you build this big empire, but your family and friends just think you’re a jerk? What’s the point? I remember many years ago listening to a radio station about somebody who founded one of the biggest nonprofits in the world and helps people in pretty much every country, especially where poverty is an issue. And I remember his daughter was on this radio program and she was so bitter because he had this notion, which as unfortunately a person of faith because he said, “I’ve done this deal with God that he’ll look after my family while I go off and do all these wonderful nonprofit things,” which totally distorts, I think a true faith position.
Warwick F:
And she was angry. She was bitter because she didn’t really see much of a dad because he’s running around saving the world. I remember listening to that saying, “I don’t want to be that person. I don’t care how much good I do, I do not want to abandon my wife and kids. That’s not going to be me.” Okay. He founded this great organization, but at what cost? Is that really the legacy you want to live? I mean, I don’t want to be that guy.
Gary S:
Right. And that’s another bit of good news for you, listener, is you do not have to leave $2.25 billion companies behind for the next generations. But those things that Warwick was talking about that we’re going to get into now, we’ve talked a little bit about what isn’t the legacy that necessarily Crucible Leadership is urging people, is trying to help people establish. We’ve talked about what it may not be. But let’s unpack, Warwick, what it might be.
Gary S:
And you recently wrote about this in a blog and one of the things that struck me about one of the things that you wrote was that we have to be intentional about our legacy and to think about it in terms of what do you want your epitaph to be? What do you want people to say about you after you’re gone? How do you want to encourage people? How do you want them to look back? And the way that you look back on John Fairfax, how do you want the future generations in your own family and perhaps if you have a somewhat larger footprint in society or in your spheres of influence, how do you want people to look at you? So unpack for listeners a little bit about what are a few of the things that we can all be thinking about when we’re thinking about establishing a lasting legacy.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, I’ll start with work because that’s often what we think of legacy and it’s so far beyond that that I don’t want to say it’s wrong to be successful, nor do I want to say it’s wrong to make a mark. But it’s more, as I’ve come to realize, it’s less the size of the organization that you might be involved in or your position in it. From a work perspective, it’s more are you doing work that you feel is meaningful, that it’s contributing to society in some way? That you feel like is helping lead a life of significance, help others.
Warwick F:
So yes, that is part of it, but the size, size doesn’t matter. But it’s more than just work. We often think our legacy just about what we do. We’re going to do some wonderful thing. But it’s more about, as much about how do you want to be remembered? Whether it’s your tombstone or somebody’s giving a eulogy at your funeral. Do you want to just be, “Hey, Fred or Mary made millions or billions.” Is that it? It just seems so empty.
Warwick F:
Typically when we’re on our deathbed, we’re not thinking that way. We’re thinking, “What does my wife or husband think? What do my kids think? What of my friends, what of my coworkers?” That’s often a legacy that’s more important. That really gets more into character. How do our beliefs and values translate into how we treat those that love us? Values and beliefs are the cornerstone, our careers, everything we do needs to be in line with that. And to me, if we have a family, and this is certainly my position, if you’re going to have a family, you can’t neglect it. You can’t just abandon your wife, husband or kids and somehow feel like, “Oh, I’m serving some greater cause.” Some people may think that’s okay. I think that’s just wrong. That’s just, I mean, if you’re going to have a family, care for them.
Warwick F:
I mean, I think in my own family, I love my dad very much. I was born when he was in his late fifties. He was married three times, my mother was married twice and I think especially the kids from his first marriage, he was in his 20s, 30s, 40s. He was very involved in the newspaper, was in there all hours working very hard. He was wealthy and so people in the 30s, who were wealthy, they might take a trip to England or Europe for a year. Well, he left his kids at home. There was a nanny looking after them. Now it’s almost like child abuse. But believe it or not, it was not uncommon in society in those days. I loved him very much, but I would never just leave my kids, they were very small, for a year.
Warwick F:
I was a little bit off topic, but he was raised by nannies. I had a nanny when I was small. My kids grew up comfortably, but there’s no way we would have a nanny raise our kids. We took our kids to soccer or recitals. That, to me, is important. And one of the things as I reflect in my own, obviously nobody’s perfect, but what’s interesting to me is one of the things we do on birthdays is we say what we admire about whoever the person’s birthday is and we have some writers in the family and so we write cards and all. And over the years what’s staggering to me, and my kids are all in their twenties now, my boys who played soccer, my daughter did color guard, which is people wave the flags with marching band and concerts and stuff. They all basically said, “Dad, I really appreciated the fact that you were there at my game. At my soccer games, marching band, color guard, concerts. You were there.”
Warwick F:
And I’m not perfect. I’m sure that a lot of things I’ve done wrong, but I’m glad they didn’t say, “Dad, you know what? You were never there at my game. You were never there.” So that’s something that I’m just so grateful. It’s staggering how every single card they ever write, they always say that year after year after year. So all that’s to say is, I know I’m harping on this a bit, but I believe in a strong, if you’re going to have a family be present because that’s the legacy ultimately. It may be the most important legacy that your kids, your grandkids, you want to be admired and respected. You don’t want to say, “Yep, guy or woman was really successful, but I hardly ever knew them. They were never there.”
Warwick F:
You just don’t want to be that person. When it comes to legacy family first, so to speak, friends, coworkers, that’s a legacy that you can influence no matter how prominent or not prominent you are. You might live in a big city, a small town. That’s a legacy we can all influence. And trust me, not many of us are there and listening to this, and hopefully it isn’t anybody in their death bed listening to this podcast. For most of us, we’re not there today. You don’t want to be on your death bed saying, “I blew it,” because there’s no second chances. And what would will you be thinking? You’ll be thinking about those that you love; spouse, kids, friends. That’s the legacy that ultimately will matter to you. So if it matters to you on your deathbed, why not get a headstart and start worrying about it now and start doing something.
Gary S:
Right. It’s interesting that you bring that up about on your death bed and how you want to be remembered on your tombstone. You and I’ve talked about this many times, but I did a little research and if you go back and you look at arguably the three most successful well-known musical stars of the last hundred years. Those would be Elvis Presley for rock and roll, Johnny Cash for country, Frank Sinatra for jazz standards. All of them have passed, and I didn’t tell you this as we were prepping for this podcast, but I did some research. Of those three, they had 42 number one singles in their careers. That is Herculean success when it comes to their chosen careers in music.
Gary S:
How many, listener, we’ll ask you this question rhetorically because you can’t answer to us, but how many of those number one records do you think are mentioned on their tombstone? Warwick, you want to answer that question?
Warwick F:
I have a feeling it’s none.
Gary S:
You’re right, it’s zero. Just very briefly, here’s what is on the tombstones of those three individuals that I spoke of. Frank Sinatra’s tombstone simply says, “Beloved husband and father.” Johnny Cash’s tombstone simply contains the text, or one of the verses from Psalm 19. Psalm 19:14, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, Oh Lord, my strength and my Redeemer.” A man with 13 number one hits, that’s what he chose to be remembered for on his tombstone. Elvis Presley, there is some mention down a very long tombstone, there is some mention of the fact that he changed music and he did some things like that, but no specifics about gold records, big hits, none of that stuff. And it says simply at the top in the biggest letters, “Elvis Aaron Presley, son of Vernon Elvis Presley and Gladys Love Presley and father of Lisa Marie Presley.”
Gary S:
Here you have these people who have every reason to boast in their accomplishments, every reason to focus on their legacy being what they accomplished. And instead they focused on the things that you were just talking about, their family and their faith.
Warwick F:
And that to me says a lot. So think of these three, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash. They’re on their death bed. Do you think they’re thinking, “Boy, I’m so glad for those 41 hits, all the amazing songs?” I think they were grateful. I think they enjoyed it, but that wouldn’t have been their last thoughts. I can’t imagine. They’d be thinking of their kids, their spouse.
Warwick F:
So I don’t want to say don’t pursue your dreams, but there’s nothing wrong with being the next Walt Disney or George Lucas or Steven Spielberg. People that have founded a huge, in this case, movie empires and brought a lot of joy and happiness to people through their work. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you don’t have to be at that level. It could be a small business in a small town or you could be a factory worker for some local plant for 50 years. It doesn’t really matter that much in the whole some scheme of things. It’s more how do those who you’ll leave behind, how will they remember you, your family, your friends, your spouse? How do you want to be remembered? Ultimately, that’s what was important to these three, to Johnny Cash, Elvis Presley and Frank Sinatra.
Warwick F:
So I think we can learn from them. Again, I keep saying is I don’t want people to say, “Okay, so just stick your head in the sand and do nothing.” No, meaningful work where you’re leading a life of significance to help others, that’s fine. But the size of your accomplishment doesn’t matter because for most of us, we’re not going to be remembered by history, 99% of us won’t be remembered now still less in 10, 20 years, 100 years, 1,000 years. It’s kind of meaningless in the whole sum scheme of history.
Warwick F:
Can any of us remember who were some of the great figures in 300AD or something. You know? I mean, maybe there’s a couple of historians, most of us, no. Most of us don’t care. So just how you treat others, how you’re remembered by those that love you. As Gary said, “What do you want on your tombstone?”
Warwick F:
And just picture this. Imagine somebody is giving your eulogy. Now imagine you could give them some notes. Not suggesting you write your eulogy before you die and hand it to your descendants, to read. But just think about what would you like them to say about you? And then do an assessment of your own life and say, “Okay, how far off am I from what I would like that eulogy to look like?” And if you feel like there’s a gap, and for some of us that might be a big gap, what can we do now?
Warwick F:
And that may mean choices. If you’re a traveling salesman and you’re gone 52 weeks a year, well maybe you need to find another way to help support your family so that you’re going to be around a bit more. Life’s about choices, but make choices in your life that are in line with your values and beliefs and your legacy and in line with how the eulogy that you want to be given, not the one that may be given, but the one that you want to be given. The time is now to make those life defining, legacy defining choices.
Warwick F:
Don’t wait on your death bed and say, “I blew it.” Now’s the time to change the course of your life, assuming it needs changing, to leave a legacy that you want to leave. A legacy that your family, friends, coworkers, will admire. That’s something that every single listener here can make a significant difference in. That is in your control to change. Other things in life, you can’t control. Your legacy, I don’t know about control it, but you can significantly influence your legacy. Everybody can do that.
Gary S:
Right. I want to circle back to your great, great grandfather, John Fairfax, because yes, there’s an ending point. There’s a natural point to talk about legacy on the death bed, on your tombstone. But there’s also what we talk about, a living legacy. And Warwick, I would submit, and I’d like to hear your comments on this for the listeners, but John Fairfax’s legacy is still living today beyond his tombstone, beyond his eulogy. It’s still living today in you and in your children. Fair?
Warwick F:
It is and it’s interesting. There’s one other quote that I want to read because I think it has a different meaning than I think I maybe originally thought. So, john Fairfax was a man of great faith, went to the Pitt Street Congregational Church in Sydney, which is still standing. It’s in downtown Sydney. And the pastor, at his funeral, he chose as his text, 2 Samuel 3:38. And in the King James, which is kind of what they used back then, says this. “Know ye not that there is a prince and a great man fallen this day in Israel.” And you think, “Okay fine. So he was kind of like a king and did really well.” He did well.
Warwick F:
But when I look at that, it’s more why did they consider him a prince and a great man? I would say it was far more about his character, about how he treated people, how his employees looked at him, how his wife and kids looked at him. That, to me, is what made him a great man.
Warwick F:
And so it’s that model of faith and how people should be treated, it’s certainly influenced generations of my family. And for me, when I came to my own faith journey, came to faith in Christ, it was really, even back then in my 20s, it was more about who he was as a person and how he treated people. There’s a biography of him written in the 1940s that’s sort of a loving portrait and the person it paints him to be is just awe inspiring in terms of character. So that was a model for me and in my own way tried to live it to hopefully pass down to my kids. That’s a legacy of both faith, family, how you treat people with respect.
Warwick F:
Also a sense of humility, which to me, I’m sure he had. Humility is a hugely important value, especially when you come from such wealth as I did. So that sense of just not thinking that you’re better than other people and just respect others. So there was a legacy of character that’s been passed down from him through generations that my wife and I, I think are trying to pass onto our kids. So that’s a legacy that’s lasted… I’m the fifth generation. That’s a legacy that’s lasted five generations.
Gary S:
Six if you obviously weave your children into it. Yeah.
Warwick F:
So you might say, how in the world could I leave a legacy that last five or six generations? A legacy of character can last that long. A family business, well, ours lasted five. Few businesses last that long. No matter how good a job you’ve done, it’s not going to last.
Warwick F:
But character, in some sense, can be eternal. Character, the values, that can be passed on from generation to generation. From an economic perspective, that’s a better investment. Character. It’s going to last a lot longer. So yeah, it’s had a huge impact.
Gary S:
One of the things I keep thinking about as we talk about this and we’re getting to the point where we’ve got to land the plane soon. The landing gear is down. But I want to hit this point because we talk a lot at Crucible Leadership. You, Warwick, are the author of this sentiment as it applies to Crucible Leadership. You talk a lot about living a life of significance and Crucible Leadership is about ways in which you can recover from crucible moments, learn the lessons, discover how you’re designed and how you’ve been refined, what your vision is so that you can point yourself toward a life of significance. But it strikes me that what we’re talking about here in legacy, if the end result of Crucible Leadership on Earth is to have lived a life of significance, is it fair to say that where we should aim our legacy is to be a legacy of significance? Is that fair?
Warwick F:
It is because when we talk about a life of significance, it’s a life lived on purpose in some sense, a higher purpose however you define it, that’s devoted to helping others. And so a legacy of significance, it’s one where you’re remembered as somebody that’s focused on other people. You’re kind, you’re humble, you want the best for your spouse and your kids and your friends. You’re a giving selfless person. So whether it’s at work or at home, that sense of significance, a life, not devoted to your own ego or own aggrandizement of riches, power and money, but more a life dedicated to the service of others. That kind of life of significance will leave a lasting legacy, a legacy of significance. If you live a life of significance, you have a much greater chance of having a legacy that you’ll be proud of. And a legacy that will last.
Gary S:
Well, as the copilot of this plane that we’re about to land, I’m going to take the liberty of addressing the passengers on the plane as we close up. I found on Inc Magazine, for those of you listeners who are saying, “Okay, this all sounds great. How do I do it? What are some things I can do?” Warwick talked about, your family needs to be a priority, but here are five practical tips that Inc Magazine, which is a business magazine, offered for leaders that are also applicable to all of us every day.
Gary S:
But here’s five things that you can do to leave a meaningful legacy just very quickly. One, prioritize people over results. Two, invest your time and money, and they put time first. Invest your time in people invest your time in things that you care about. Three, I love this one. Connect in person. In this day and age, we spend so much time connecting electronically. We’re grateful that we have the opportunity to connect electronically with you, listener. But in your lives, connect in person. Warwick talked about it, about your family, about your friends, connect in person, make time for that.
Gary S:
Another thing that Inc suggested was to model behavior that you want to last. Do the things in your life that you want to be remembered for. Do the things in your life that you want people to follow. Create disciples in that sense. Be a mentor to someone in that sense. Those are just five very practical takeaway steps as you’re looking at this idea of legacy. You’re looking to lead a life of significance out of your crucible moment. How then do you make sure that in addition to doing that, you’re also leaving a legacy of significance? Those are just four things that one publication, Inc Magazine, suggested.
Warwick F:
What’s interesting to me about that is some people might say, “Okay, is he saying I can’t pursue success and I got to care about coworkers, friends, and family?” Well, if you listen carefully, those points at Inc Magazine, the reality is if you treat your employees and your coworkers well, they’re more likely to work harder to stay. You’ll attract the best and the brightest. Who wants to work for somebody that cheats, steals or takes all the adulation for them, brow beats them, treats them badly? Those who have a choice leave. The best and the brightest, they’re the first ones to go and say, “Forget this.”
Warwick F:
So treating people well with care and respect actually makes good business sense. So the bottom line is by caring for your family, treating them well, loving, respecting them, respecting coworkers, leaving a legacy that you’d be proud of, that you will be remembered by. You might just find, maybe you want to have some multimillion dollar business, but whatever you’re doing it will probably have done better than if you had lived a life differently.
Warwick F:
So the bottom line is commercial success and treating people well and leaving a legacy that you’d be proud of, those two things, rather than being against each other, I think at least in some sense, one can support the other. It’s not either or. So I think what that Inc Magazine says is really very telling.
Gary S:
Well a wise co-pilot knows when to let the pilot have the last word when it’s a good last word. So we’re going to sign off now and we’re going to thank you listeners for joining us on Beyond The Crucible. If you found this discussion insightful and helpful as you pursue not only a life of significance but hopefully a legacy of significance, we have a favor to ask that will help us help more people just like you who are seeking a way to move beyond their crucible experiences. Here’s the idea. Very simple. Here’s the favor. Please subscribe to Beyond The Crucible on the app that you’re listening to right now. It will allow you to make sure you don’t miss an episode and it will make it easier for others to find us, listen to us and share the podcast with their friends and coworkers.
Gary S:
And if you’ve heard anything today that you’d like to learn more about, we encourage you to visit us on the web CrucibleLeadership.com. And one of the things that you can do there as you begin to walk out, as you continue to walk out this path toward a life of significance, a legacy of significance, one of the things you’ll find there is a free short assessment that will allow you to see where you are, give you insight to where you are on this road from crucible experience on one end to life of significance, legacy of significance, on the other. Visit CrucibleLeadership.com and you’ll be able to take this assessment for no cost and really jumpstart your quest for a life of significance.
Gary S:
So until the next time that we’re together, do remember that crucible experiences can be painful. They can feel like your entire world has collapsed in upon you. But the good news is, as Warwick proven himself and as Crucible Leadership talks about, those crucible experiences aren’t the end of your story. Those crucible experiences can actually be the beginning of a new chapter in your story that leads to something phenomenal, a life of significance and a legacy of significance.
Robert Krantz appeared in some of the top films of the ’80s — Back to the Future, anyone? — but when he turned his attention and talents to writing, directing and starring in his own movies a decade later, his career and life began to unspool like a dropped film reel. His first production — which he and his wife put so much money into they had to live with his mother — had the makings of a hit but never took off because of a disastrous Hollywood screening. That professional setback was followed by an even more devastating personal crucible: his wife’s diagnosis that threatened the lives of her unborn triplet sons. The boys not only survived but thrived, and Krantz put his film career on hold to be truly present as they grew. Now that they’re in college, he’s back behind and in front of the camera with the critically acclaimed Faith, Hope & Love, in which he stars as a man whose up-and-down life looks a lot like his own. In this episode, Krantz talks with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax about where he’s found the strength to keep pursuing a life of significance and what he wants his legacy to be as a man and a maker of movies.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome, everybody, to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. You are listening to a podcast that offers hope and healing for folks who have been through what we like to call crucible experiences, those painful things that can happen to you, be they failures, setbacks, tragedies, those things that change the trajectory of your life, that cause pain in your life and lead you to have a different life, a different perspective after those things happen. Our goal in talking about these things is not to wallow in them, not to camp on them, but is truly to look at them as ways we can learn about ourselves, learn about the path that we’re on, then chart a course to a life of significance.
Gary S:
Here with me, as always, is the host of the program and the founder of Crucible Leadership, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we’ve got a very interesting episode today.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. Looking forward to it.
Gary S:
Our guest today is Robert Krantz and we’re going to get talking to Robert in a minute, but before that, let me tell you a little bit about Robert Krantz. Robert Krantz is a Greek American. His name was shortened from Karountzose by his grandparents. Robert graduated from USC’s film school and has acted in some of the most successful movies, like Back to the Future and The Woman in Red, TV movies, the Billionaires Boys Club and Onassis, and sitcoms like Who’s the Boss and Silver Spoons. He has also sold his original screenplays to Sony, Fox, and Columbia Pictures. Additionally, Krantz produced, wrote, and starred in the award-winning, Do You Wanna Dance and Christmas with the Karountzoses. He has written several best-selling books, Falling in Love with Sophia, Guide to the Divine Liturgy, and Guide to Holy Week.
Gary S:
Krantz is also the owner of Ellinas Multimedia, the largest production and distribution company of Greek media in the United States. Most recently, he wrote, produced, directed, and starred, the shorthand version of that is he Alan Alda’d, Faith, Hope and Love, a film for which he received nominations for best screenplay, best picture, best actor, and one for best director from the International Christian Film Festival. His next film is going to be the movie adaptation of his book, Falling in Love with Sophia. Krantz lives in Southern California with his wife, Tricia. They have triplet sons, Chris, George and Nick. Chris and George attend the University of Chicago and Nick attends Washington University in St. Louis.
Gary S:
Robert, let me begin by saying that Warwick and I both had the opportunity just over the weekend, before we recorded this, to watch Faith, Hope and Love. I actually had seen it before. I, believe it or not, did publicity work for it, even though we didn’t know each other, I did publicity work for it when it came out earlier in 2019, but we watched it again. Warwick, you in particular, and your family, loved it.
Warwick F:
We did, yeah. It was just an amazing movie and we watched it over the weekend with my wife and two of my three kids who are in their 20s, a daughter and a son. It’s unusual to get a movie that everybody likes because normally, guys like action movies and maybe my daughter might want less of an action movie, a bit more sentimental, but they all loved it. What I liked is it was heartwarming, it was funny, there was amazing dancing. I mean, obviously, Peta, you would expect from Dancing on the Stars that she’d be good, but you were pretty good, too, so that was impressive, Robert. I really… and what I loved is-
Robert K:
Oh, thank you. I appreciate it.
Warwick F:
… it’s nice when the co-star, as I like to say, doesn’t have an accent. She’s from Australia, so she talks like me. I didn’t need simultaneous translation. I got it, so she was amazing. I just loved it and-
Robert K:
Great.
Warwick F:
… we’ll talk more about that movie in a bit, but yeah, we would like to start as just a bit about your story and, in particular, I know you’ve had a couple different crucible experiences and, yeah, just tell us a little bit about your story and some of the challenges.
Robert K:
It’s funny, I was telling Gary that I’ve had so many of them and I just kind of accepted that’s just life. I was telling my wife recently, I was listing off many of them and I was saying to her, “God has been there every step of the way. Every time I’ve gotten knocked down, he’s been there to pick me back up.” She said, “That’s an interesting way you look at it because other people would look at it like God knocked them down.” I never felt that and I’m going to mention one smaller one, but it had a profound impact on me, before I get to the larger one.
Robert K:
The smaller one, I was actually 12-years-old and I was in the summer. I think my parents, in retrospect, both my parents have passed away, so I can’t ask them, but I think they were going through some marital problems and they went to Greece. I think they were trying to get away from the kids, so to speak, because there was three of us and I’m sure we were a handful. My dad was busy with work, so when my mom went to Greece first, he was going to join her, but he was so busy with work that he had my brother and I go and stay at my grandparent’s house. They were Greek immigrants, and just to give you a perspective, there was no washing machine, there was no air conditioning, it was the dead of summer, and I remember at the time I don’t think I understood it, but it just kind of felt like we were abandoned for two or three months. My grandparents didn’t speak that much English and I remember sitting around doing nothing for two months.
Robert K:
When school began, the basketball tryouts began. My brother, who was a year or so older than me, was the star of the team I think in ninth grade, I was going into eighth grade. I remember trying out for the team. I can remember the shoes I wore, I can remember the gym bag I had, everything, because on the last day, I was the last guy to get cut. I remember walking across that floor and you think something like that, well, you’d get over it, whatever, but it was such a crushing moment and that night I went out with my two friends who were two of the best players on the team and made the team. We went to a Milwaukee Bucks basketball game, I grew up in Wisconsin, and the next morning they were having anyone who wanted to volunteer to be a manager. In other words, the guy that got the team water, the guy that got the team towels, all that stuff, could volunteer. I showed up and I remember it when my coach showed up in the door, he said, “I had a feeling you were going to be here.”
Robert K:
My mom years and years and years later, there was one picture of me as a manager and I was spinning a basketball on my finger in the locker room. She would always tell me, “That’s my favorite picture of you.” I never really understood it, but really? Why that one? Because it was a defining moment for me. From that moment on, it was humbling being around your best friends and getting water and towels and all that sort of stuff, but from that moment on, I began to work as hard as I could to become as good of basketball player as I could. I realized two things out of this experience. Number one, when I had children, I would never let them out of my eyesight. Now, obviously, they’re going to go off and do their thing, but I can tell you almost to this day, our children are 21 and they’re in college, but I cannot remember my wife and I taking a vacation without them in 21 years.
Robert K:
My parents did a lot of things right, but that was one thing that was just an… Unfortunately, there was some other repercussions that other members of my family, that things didn’t go good and it taught me you have to have those children… and I’ve always said to my children, even until they went to University of Chicago and St. Louis, it was a running joke in our family, I said, “If there’s a problem, I’ll be there in 15 minutes.” I’ve held true to that. Whenever there’s a problem, there was a crisis yesterday with one of my kids and I was on that phone immediately with him. That was one part and then the second part I learned is, you have to work your tail off to be successful at something. I think I’ve had that chip on my shoulder ever since that day.
Robert K:
I ended up the next year making the team. The year after that, becoming a starter. Then, by my senior year, I ended up becoming the captain of our team that went to the state tournament. Never that good a player, although I would love to tell you I was okay, but where I got exceeded my talent and I think that that moment… in fact, if you see our movie, Christmas with the Karountzoses, you’ll hear me talk about it in that movie in a certain scene. That defined me because from that moment in my life, I have had to work my tail off for everything. As I got into the film, I didn’t have a sibling or a parent or anybody in this business… for years, it never made sense to me. I’ll segue into the second one here because you’ll see how they kind of all come together.
Warwick F:
Actually, just before you get into second one, I mean, this is such a great story. It may not be as, in some sense, obviously, as searing as some of the ones that are coming up, but what’s interesting is this is a microcosm of the opportunity that a crucible experience can be. Here you are, in eighth grade. You get cut, the last one. It may not seem that big today, but at the time, in eighth grade you’re cut, that’s huge. All your buddies are on the team and it would have been easy for you to say, “Hey, this if unfair. I’ve been abandoned by my parents for two months. I mean, what is the deal here?” It would be easy for you to be angry. You, obviously, weren’t happy, but you said, “Okay.” You humbled yourself to be a manager, you’ve worked your tail off and got on the team and became captain. I mean, that’s sort of a microcosm of not letting a crucible experience define you and saying, “Okay, I didn’t like this, but I’m going to bounce back from it.”
Warwick F:
It’s a microcosm of… I won’t say the perfect way to approach a crucible experience, but feels kind of. You know? It’s a little vignette, but it’s a powerful story, so just want the listeners to see in that small example about the power of not letting a setback define you and you didn’t let it define you. That’s truly impressive, so anyway.
Robert K:
Yeah, thank you. What happened, as I was saying, when I got into the film business it made absolutely no sense to me. I mean, my parents, my dad was a business person, my mom was a stay-at-home mom. Being from Wisconsin and coming into the film business, there was no allure, it’s not like if you live in Los Angeles where there is immediacy to it. I had graduated high school and I remember I was at a church summer camp. There was a lady there Faye Colster and I was at the camp and we were walking, just the two of us, and I said, “Faye, I think that God’s calling me to go into this field, into the film…” and Faye was one of those people that you just knew was a great Christian. She was just wonderful. I thought for sure she’d say, “Oh, my God. Robert, let’s talk about this.” She kind of just turned and started laughing and she turned around and she could see I was serious. She said, “Well, then let’s pray about it.” She said, “God, if…”
Robert K:
First of all, when she said that, I thought, “Oh, my God. If my buddy, Teddy, walks around the corner, I’m going to die.” What were you and Faye doing walking? She prayed and she said, “God, if this is what you want for Robert’s life, clear a path for him,” and that was it. That was the prayer. The irony was or the punchline to that story was decades later I saw Faye when we were screening Faith, Hope and Love. She was at a screening and I said, “Faye, do you remember that?” She said, “I remember like it was yesterday.” That was a pivotal moment.
Gary S:
Those two stories are a great organizing construct for where the conversation’s going to go next, I think. Your story about being in eighth grade and not making the team and the separation from your parents and feeling alone. Then, that led to your resolve to not leave your kids alone, to always be there for them. As you tell your next crucible stories, that’s going to show up.
Gary S:
This other one, about God called you to the film industry and when you hit some rocky roads there, that was tested. What I love about those two stories right there is Warwick and I have talked to a number of people about their crucible experiences, but yours, Robert, are kind of like crucibles squared. As you tell your stories, the listener will hear that pretty much the same time you had a professional crucible and a personal crucible sort of crash into each other. I’ll turn it over to you now to tell those stories, but it really is a fresh perspective we haven’t had on this show yet of a crucible squared.
Robert K:
Yeah. What happened was I moved out to California, and I went to Arizona State for two years, and then I got work as a PA on a movie called Nightkill with Robert Mitchum.
Gary S:
PA, just for the record, was a production assistant.
Robert K:
Yeah. I’ll tell you, that taught me… I will always when I’m on a set now with the PA’s, I will always treat them with the utmost respect because that’s how I started out, working for free. Anyway, at the end I thought, well, where do I go from here? I went to USC’s film school. How I got in there was a miracle in itself and I was the luckiest guy in the world, but I got in there and I remember on the first day of filming they said, “Okay, anybody have any questions?” All these kids were doing tracking shots and valley shots and all this stuff, and I thought, oh, my gosh, this is going to be rough, but I’ve got to bite the bullet, and I said, “I don’t know how to focus the camera.”
Robert K:
The entire room just died and I’ll never forget, that teacher, he addressed me like it was the most poignant question anyone had ever asked. Mel Sloan, I can still remember him, God bless him, and I was off and running. I ended up getting the highest grade in the class because they graded you on so far down it was like, okay, but I was obsessed with it and I just worked and worked and worked at it. It came a point where I was studying acting at night, I was studying writing and producing during the day, but there came a point when I had to jump off and say, “Is this what I’m supposed to do?”
Robert K:
I went to a church, St. Sophia’s in downtown Los Angeles and I was alone. This will tie into the crucible moment at the end, I said, “God, I don’t know why. This doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t know why, but I think this is what you’re calling me to do with my life and I’m worried it’s my ego and I don’t want that to be the case. If it’s the case, stop me at any point, from the moment I get out of here, do whatever you need to do to stop me, but I think this is what you’re calling me to do.” I remember sometime around then telling my mother, “Mom, I think I’m supposed to make these…” at the time, this was in the 80s, “… these faith-based films.” She told me years later, I remember it, she said, “I thought to myself where are you going with that?” I don’t blame her for thinking that, but I just felt that what was happening.
Robert K:
I then started, it was about 10 to 12 years of Back to the Future, Who’s the Boss, all those sort of things. This was not an easy ride. This was a, if you’re on a plane and there’s turbulence the whole route, it was turbulence the whole way. It was hard, hard work and I was constantly wondering, am I supposed to do this, is this what it’s supposed to be, etcetera, and it led up to a moment where I made a movie. I had seen Spike Lee’s, She’s Gotta Have It, and with The Brothers McMullen, and I thought, I think this is what I’m supposed to do is to write, produce, and act in a film.
Robert K:
I wrote a film. There was a priest named Father Chris Hullis who had a significant impact in my life. I was going through a really tough time in my mid to late 20s and I told him one day. I said, “I’m going to make a movie about our friendship.” I ended up making this film called Do You Wanna Dance, which is basically a guy, myself, a dance instructor, gets in trouble with the law and ends up having to teach a bunch senior citizens how to dance, so they can stay in shape as his community service instead of going to jail.
Robert K:
We put everything, I mean, everything under the sun that we had, to the point that we had to move in with my mother. My wife and I, we’d gotten married and we had it all riding on this. We flew to Chicago for a test screening for a thousand people and it was this huge auditorium. I had tested the film in groups of 20-30 people, but this was going to tell me, because he next night we were screening it for the studios, all the studios, and Chris Columbus from Home Alone was a fan of the screenplay, had seen the movie, and said, “Look, I’m all in. I love this movie. You did a great job and I’m going to come and introduce the film to the studios when you come on Saturday night.” Friday night we were screening it in Chicago.
Robert K:
We screened it in Chicago, a thousand people plus. They had to call the fire warden because it was so oversold, and it was the first time I’d ever seen a movie that I had written get a reaction. I remember at one of the most pivotal parts, I started hearing some people sniffing and coughing or something and I’m thinking, “Oh, you’re ruining it all of you who are sniffing,” never realizing that people were crying, that what was on screen was really making people cry. Never thought I’d have that effect on people whatever I wrote or did. When I got up on stage afterwards, there was about a five to 10-minute standing ovation and I just was stunned. I didn’t anticipate that at all. I remember I was going on stage; I could see it out of the corner of my eye and I remember thinking, holy man, we knew we had a hit film, there was no doubt. You can’t get people to react that way and it was just… afterwards it was just a mob scene, it was great.
Robert K:
We go to Westwood the next day, we fly with the film. I think we had one copy of the film, that’s all we could afford, and I had Dolby come in. I left nothing to chance. I had Dolby come in and check every speaker in the theater in Westwood, went up to the booth ahead of time and I said to the guy, the projectionist, “Hey, it’s going to be a lot of people and make sure you have the sound.” Said, “Mr. Krantz, you can come up here as many times as you want. It’s all good.” You could tell I was a nervous Nelly and he was totally calm. We sat down. Chris Columbus introduced the film. The film starts and about 10 minutes into the film, one of the characters was speaking. I don’t know if it was me or one of the other characters and it started to warble. I just remember thinking, “Oh, my God.” I’d heard the film so many times, I thought, what is that? I thought I was having a stroke at first.
Robert K:
Then, my wife squeezed my hand and I thought, well, we’re probably both not having strokes at the same time, so there’s a problem here. I learned a lesson. If it’s your movie, never sit in the middle of a theater because I knew something horrible was happening. Everyone around me started knowing something horrible was happening. I got up and I thought, this just can’t be. This was right in the beginning of the film. I ran up to the projectionist booth and every one of the people that was involved in the film was up there and the projectionist who had been so calm was in absolute panic. I said, “What’s happening?” He said the light bulb that projects through the film to create the sound was wearing out. He said, “I don’t have another one.” He said, “Can you ask everybody to come back tomorrow?” I said, “Are you crazy? There’s heads of studios down there. I’m lucky I got them today.”
Robert K:
It was absolute chaos and then somehow, somebody found a bulb, but I remember we were about halfway through the film at that point. Oh, it’s just painful to even think about it now. I had rehearsed two or three years preparing for the dance portion of that film and I remember looking down and it was the dance solo that I did in that film. I had looked so forward to that moment being in the audience and here I was up in the projectionist booth. We had a time when something paused in the film for him to put in the new light bulb. I missed all that and I remember sitting down and I think I went to cry or something and nothing came out. I had nothing left to give. I had put everything into that, my heart and soul, so I went back downstairs and I thought maybe it wasn’t as bad as I thought. One of our investors came walking around the corner. I look at him and I said, “George.” He said, “What the blank’s up with this film?” I went, “Oh, boy. We’re in trouble.”
Robert K:
Long story short, the studio started passing on it. They thought the film had been made poorly. It had nothing to do with how the film was made. It was just this stupid light bulb and I think for two or three days, I don’t remember sleeping much at all. It just didn’t make sense to me. Here, we were trying to make a film that was ahead of that whole faith-based movement and you’re trying to do something good to promote God and so forth, and we just got nailed. I mean, nailed. This wasn’t even… Weeks were going by and it was Good Friday. I thought… Oh, I was leaving to go to Good Friday services and my wife and I had no money. We had no money and I remember going to the service. I was about to leave and the phone rang. Mike Bremer called me. I thought, uh, this is it, this is the moment, this is the story, you’re going to Good Friday and the call comes in and we want to buy your film. He said, I think it was Columbia, Disney, and Paramount all passed, and that was it.
Robert K:
I remember going to church and being just livid. I thought, could you have timed that any worse, God? Could you have timed it… couldn’t you have let me go to church and come back and… I don’t know. I just thought… and I just was so just crushed sitting in church. That’s when everyone around you starts looking at you, thinking like good dream, but best of luck. A couple of weeks went by and everyone starting telling me, “Move on with your life. You did your dream, you made your film, move on with your life.” Right around then, there was a company called Largo that called up Mike and said, “We couldn’t make it that night. Can you send us a screener?”
Robert K:
They sent this screener over, they watched it. I’ll never forget what they said. They said, “We’re ringing our hands and we’re going to let you know.” I went back to our house, my mom’s house, I kneeled down and I prayed and I said, “God, I can’t go on anymore. I thought that you and I had gone over this and had an agreement, it was 10 years earlier when I was in that church that this was what I was supposed to do with my life. I’ve put in all this time and energy and I know I told you if this isn’t meant to be, stop it. Maybe you’re stopping it.” I said, “If you are, if they come back and say no, I’m going to move on with my life and do something else.” I hate the last part of it, but it’s the truth. I said, “But you’re going to have an angry son on your hands.” That was the truth, that’s how I felt.
Robert K:
I got up. Everyone in my life was telling me move on, except three people, my mom, my best-friend Gary, and my sister were telling me don’t quit. I went, I think, to the store or something and the phone rang. I picked up; it was Mike. I said, “What’s up.” He said, “Do we have a lawyer?” I said, “I don’t know. Why? Who’s asking?” He goes, “It’s Largo.” I go, “What does that mean do we have a lawyer?” He goes, “Don’t look up, don’t look down. I think they’re going to buy the foreign rights to the film,” and they did. They took it to Cannes, they flew my wife and I to Cannes, and the way these stories go, you think like, ah, there it is, there’s the beautiful moment. I’m telling you, it was one bumpy ride after another.
Robert K:
We got to Cannes, and I remember Peter walked in, Peter Elson foreign sales and he said, “Do you like the sight of blood?” I what? He goes, “Because your film is bleeding. We’re not selling it that much.” They sold enough to do one thing, to license the rights of the music to the film, which meant we now could sell it. There was no advance, they gave us no money, but they sold the rights… they bought the rights to the music. I’m thinking, “Okay, I don’t know what that means, but all right, we live for another day.” My wife and I get on the plane and we’re flying back and I remember at one point I saw the low budget director, Gary… I can’t remember his name. The guy that all those low budget films, with Ron Howard and so forth. I remember my wife, I was trying to tell her and she was doing sit ups. She kept saying, “Oh, I’m having stomach pains. I’m having stomach pains.”
Robert K:
We got back home, the ride was rocky as can be, I almost lost my ticket getting on the plane, it was just one problem after another. I see my mom and I’m like, “Hey, Mom, this is how it went.” My wife goes behind my mother and she keeps going like this… I go, “yeah, yeah, I’m glad, I hope you’re feeling better.” She’s like that, and finally I go, “What is it?” She goes, “I took a pregnancy test, I’m pregnant.” It was three weeks later, I come home, there’s an ambulance outside the house and I’m thinking, “Oh, my God.” Either way it’s going to be bad news because my mom was older, my wife I knew was pregnant. I see my wife in the ambulance, we go to the emergency room and we’re looking at this monitor. I thought, okay, maybe we lost the child or something happened. It turned out she flipped an ovary, which was excruciatingly painful. As we’re looking at the monitor, I see these two sacs and I’m staring at them and I’m thinking… it’s just the doctor and my wife and I, I’m not going to say what I’m thinking because it looks like two and I’m thinking, “I’m not ready for that.”
Robert K:
Finally, after five minutes I go, “Is that two, like two children?” He goes, “Oh, yeah, yeah. It’s definitely twins,” and he scrolls over, but I’m trying to figure out what this is here. Sure enough, it was a third child, it was triplets. Now, when I go and do public speaking, I always pause at this moment because I go, “Look, I know what you’re thinking. Has this story got a good ending?” Because I had a film that nobody wanted, I had three kids on the way, I was in debt because of this film, and I’m living with my mom and it was all just caving in, but the next part became even harder. At 12 weeks, we went to see the doctor. My wife could tell right away, she says, “Something’s wrong.” I said, “No, no, they’re just talking,” this and that. He came back in and he said, “Tricia, you’re going into labor,” and it was 12 weeks. I can remember, he performed what they call a cerclage, which stopped it, but we were in serious trouble and this was before the… right in the cusp of the internet taking off, so you couldn’t go on the internet and get information. It was right on the cusp of that.
Robert K:
I remember the doctor, who was a very kind man, he sent me home with a pamphlet and he said, “You’re an excellent candidate for reduction.” I was so excited because I was not an excellent candidate for anything at that point in my life. I remember thinking, I wonder what that means? Maybe you get a discount for something or I didn’t know. I went home and I started reading the pamphlet and reduction meant to abort one or two of the children, that’s what they were telling us they thought we should do. I went and talked to my wife, both of us were crying. She’s petite, she’s 5’3″, maybe 105 pounds, we knew nothing about this and I remember after I began to read what they do during the abortion, I thought, I just can’t do that. I just, I can’t do that. Maybe others can, but I’d rather live with the consequences of whatever happened when we had the children or whatever happened.
Robert K:
My wife and I talked and talked about it. At one point, every couple of weeks we’d keep coming back to the emergency room because her body kept reacting as though it was going to go into labor. They put her on total and absolute, complete bedrest. I read a book about this thing called Gurus Diet and that diet made her put on 60 pounds. Then, we told the doctor, “We’re going to try to have all three.” He said, “You can’t leave bedrest. It’s just going to be so hard for Tricia to do this.” She had a belt on and this belt kept going of an into the emergency room we’d go. Finally, he said, “Look, you two, I’m telling you,” I think we’re about 17-18 weeks, he said, “I’m not worried about your three children dying. You guys are worried about them dying. What I’m telling you is, you’re going to give birth to three invalids and you will get divorced and your marriage will be over and your lives will change forever.”
Robert K:
I remember crying on the ride home. I was by myself and I remember saying, “God, please just give me any sign.” It was… even talking about it now, it’s difficult. It was the hardest moment of my life because I couldn’t work my way out of it. I couldn’t work extra hours, I just couldn’t do anything other than pray and say, “God, I need your help, so I’ve cut this film that nobody wants, I’ve got a wife that’s on bedrest, I’m about to lose or have three invalids,” and at the end, we told the doctor, “Look, we’re going to go and whatever happens, happens.” We said, “We’re not going to abort any of the children.”
Robert K:
I think it was about 17, 18, 20 weeks and the doctor, he had all these patients that would come in, they were multiples, but they were doing so great. They came walking in. My wife, they had to put on a gurney and bring her in. Every week, you thought, this is it. We can’t go beyond 23, so boy, if you could just hang in, this is where the cells in the brain form. Then, next week, well this is where the hearing forms. We were just stumbling along and then finally, I think she got to about 29 weeks and he turned to my wife and he said, “If you come back in one more time, I’m going to tell you, you have got to abort.”
Robert K:
Sure enough, on the day he told us, this is the day, I think it was Labor Day, that buzzer went off one more time. In we came and I remember I was in the hospital and my wife came out of the hospital bathroom and this doctor came in, he was 6’3″ and she looked up at him, she said… she put her hand up and she goes, “I don’t care what you have to say, I’m not giving up on those kids, so if you’re coming in here to tell me to abort, the answer’s no, and you can leave.” He started laughing. He started laughing and he said, “Okay, we’ll try and finish this.” About two weeks later, I think it was 30-31 weeks, he said to my wife, “I’ve been wrong every week. Why don’t you just tell me when you’re going to give birth and I’ll show up.”
Robert K:
She told him, December 20, 1998 was her grandmother’s birthday and she said, “That’s the date and that’s the day those kids were born.” It was 35 weeks, I believe. It changed my life completely because when those kids were born, they were baptized. I remember at the end of the baptism, they were in my in laws home and I took each one of them, we were in the back room, and I held each one up in my arms to God and I said, “They’re yours now.” I said, “I’m going to be the best father I can be and I will never forget this moment.” I committed myself to those three boys, mind, body, spirit, everything I’ve had, I’ve put into those boys because I’m convinced that they’re going to do some good in this world. God put them here with a purpose and I never wanted to meet my creator and have him say to me, “Boy, did you forget. You forgot how much you wanted those kids.”
Robert K:
I tell you, they put me through the ringer. There were moments where I’m like, oh, you guys make this tough, man. I love you, but you’re killing me, but that was the defining moment and then, to tie it in with the professional, so you guys will get a kick out of this. Right before the kids were born, Largo, the guys were handling the foreign, the film, came back and said, “Great news. Columbia’s going to buy the picture. They’re taking it as a package deal. They’re taking two of our other films.” Mike called up his friend, Peter Nelson worked at Columbia, and Peter said, “Mike, it’s going to be wonderful. You’re going to tell all your friends the films at Columbia, you’re not going to make a dime off of this.” I went, “What are we doing that for?” He goes, “Look, just move on.” I’m like, “No, I’ve got a wife on bedrest over here. We’ve got to get going here.”
Robert K:
I opened up this paper called the Orthodox Observer and it goes out to all the Greeks. In it, there was a take called Cooking with Yaya, Cooking with Grandma in the Kitchen. I looked at it and I said, “Man, if they’re selling that, I can sell my little movie.” I called up Largo and I’m like, “Hey, you know what? I think I’m going to do this myself. I’m going to start my own company called Ellinas Multimedia,” and I’ll never forget their response. “Bob, if you were here, we would hang you out the window by your thumbs. This is the stupidest thing you’ve ever done.”
Robert K:
Everyone told me it’s the stupidest thing. Everybody. Another friend who’s very close to me said, “Okay, you sell it to your 10 Greek friends, then what?” I remember there was a friend, Nick Larigakis was at an event in Los Angeles. I had lunch with him. He said, “Bob, bring some of your videos to this event,” and I said, “Nick, nobody knows me. Nobody knows me.” He said, “Just bring it.” I said to my wife, “Do you think I should go?” She was on bedrest at the time. She said, “There’s a box by the washer and dryer, fill it up with videos and see what happens.” I pack up 20 videos in this box, carry it in, open up the box, put the videos out on the thing, write down $19.95 on the sign. Nick comes by, he’s like, “What do you mean? We’re going to give change? That’s $20, just put $20.” I said, “Oh, right, yeah. Right, $20”
Robert K:
A guy walks up the minute I open the box and he hands me a bill. “Sorry, I don’t have change for a hundred.” “What are you saying? It’s a $20.” It had been so long since I’d seen money, they had changed the bill. I went, “Oh, yeah, it’s a $20. I’m sorry, thank you.” I went home to my wife, I walked in, she’s on bed rest, and I walk up to the bed and I take two $20 bills and I put it on the bed. She goes, “All right, $40 we didn’t have.” I put two more things. She goes, “Oh, my gosh, $80?” I took all 20 of the $20 bills and I threw it over the bed. We just went… It was like a million bucks for us and I put it on the counter. Neither one of us could sleep that night because I think we knew, I think we knew that the answer had come and the answer was I ended up starting my own company, Ellinas Multimedia. It was not until… I think I mentioned this to you, Gary.
Gary S:
Yep.
Robert K:
Five year later, I was in my home crossing through the living room and I went, “Oh, okay. That’s what this was all about.” I think what it was, was this. God knew if I sold that movie, I would have stayed up in Los Angeles, I would have probably gone on to the next project, I would have never been the father and perhaps even the husband, too, that I wanted to be. My wife and my children are everything to me. I would give up everything I have for those four people. They always say God knows you better than you know yourself. God knew what was in my heart. I wanted to be a… you’ll see this in the movie, Christmas with the Karountzoses, you’ll hear that there’s a line that I say in there which is, “All I’d ever wanted to be was a great father.” That’s all I wanted to be, and a great husband. I wanted to be the best husband.
Robert K:
I think what God knew is if you sell this film, number one, the money won’t last as long as you think it will, you’ll be jumping from job to job, and I want to tell you, that I’m going to have to slow you down here. It was only five years later, after I started my company, that I looked back and went, “Oh,” moved out of Los Angeles, I’m in Orange County. I was a present father and I ended up starting my own company, but I did not know at that time it would be 15 or 16 years before I would ever be able to act, or write, or produce again because I was committed to my family. Then, when that came about with Christmas with the Karountzoses, just briefly here, and then I’ll be quiet.
Robert K:
My sons were in their sophomore year of high school and I finished the movie in 12 days. When I came home, my son, George, had left a note on the stairs which said, “Are you done yet?” I went upstairs and I told my wife, “I won’t make another movie until they’re in college.” They went into college and then I made Faith, Hope and Love.
Warwick F:
How many years were there between the whole terrible experience with Dance, with that first movie, Do You Wanna Dance, and then Faith, Hope and Love? What was that gap between those two?
Robert K:
Almost 20 years.
Warwick F:
Wow. For most of that time, you were focused on being a dad and-
Robert K:
Completely.
Warwick F:
That is just an incredible story and I really appreciate you sharing. I mean, you’ve got these two searing experiences, you have this great movie that you felt like you knew this was a hit. I mean, the audiences loved it, they cried or they want to cry. I mean, obviously, you don’t want them crying at the funny part. They were crying at the part they were meant to be crying at, so that’s always a positive sign and if not for the light bulb, there’s a pretty fair chance that somebody would have picked it up and maybe the last 20 years could have been very different.
Robert K:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Obviously, even people of faith, I mean, we’re human. I mean, I think you kind of said it a bit, were you like angry and like, this is just so unfair? This was a hit, this is not justice, this is not fair, this is a hit. The audience says it’s a hit.
Robert K:
Not only angry. Crushed, because I wasn’t making a horror film, I wasn’t making a cops and robber. I was making a film that when you watch it glorify God and you’re thinking, wow, I see all these other films coming out and you would think God would give me a little nudge. You know? No, that’s not the plan God had for me.
Warwick F:
That’s kind of amazing because it’s easy for us to think that we know what God’s plan is, is… not to get into this too much, but as listeners know from other podcasts and blogs growing up in a large 150-year-old family media business that was started by as strong a businessman for Christ that’s ever existed, at least in Australia from my perspective in the late 1830s, early 1840s. Here am I, I’m thinking, okay, I’m a believer. Gosh, must be God’s plan to resurrect the company and the ideals of the founder, at least in terms of how people are treated and the ethics and what have you. Then, I do the takeover, $2.25 billion. The company goes under and it’s like, a little bit like you, but just a different vantage point, but Lord, it had to have been your will for me to be in control of this big company because it was founded by a person of faith.
Warwick F:
I mean, like okay, I made dumb mistakes, which is I’ve talked about a lot, but how can this happen? This makes no sense. I thought this was your plan for my life to be in this 150 year old family business. I guess not, so it’s like sometimes we have this thought that, well, surely Lord you need more faith-based, life-enhancing movies. I mean, do you need less? I mean, maybe I’m missing something, but surely this is something that helps the cause. Right? How in the world can you let it happen? I mean, did you fall asleep. I mean, what’s going on here? It’s easy to …
Robert K:
I felt it. I felt that way and it took me a long time, but what I realized as I’ve gone through… you talk about crucible moments, I’ve had so many since then, in between them, but each one, my mother-in-law, two and a half years ago, had a brain aneurism. Survived. Still can’t speak today, but thank God she’s still alive. I lost my mom, my dad, there’s just been so many moments, but I’ve learned to… When Gary and I were first talking about doing this, I remember, I don’t follow podcasts too much, and I remember he said… I don’t know how they rate podcasts or how many viewers, whatever that is, it didn’t matter to me and I’ll tell you why. If there’s one person out there… I was asked a question during the interviews for this movie, and they said, “What do you want this to be about, this movie?” I thought about it for a long time on the air and I finally said, “Hope.”
Robert K:
That’s what I’m doing this for, that’s what I’m doing what we’re doing right now. If there’s a person out there that’s down on their luck, that’s struggling, that doesn’t think their life’s amounting to something, that’s got a kid’s that’s on drugs, that’s upside down on their mortgage, that’s struggling to get through college, that feels like they’re too old and nobody’s paying attention or too young and nobody’s paying… Whatever that is, everything I’m trying to do with my work now is geared toward one thing, that people when they see me, when they see my movies, that they’re given hope. That hope can come just in the form of what you’re watching or it can be even hope from …
Warwick F:
I feel like you’ve lived a life of hope, as we’ll get into in a minute. I think the character in your recent movie, Faith, Hope and Love, the translation of the Greek, the character’s name is Hope, so it was obviously very appropriate, but you could have after that professional debacle, and everybody other than two or three, it helps when your mom and your wife, amongst others, are with you. Then, they said just, “Robert, give it up. This is madness. You’re insane.” Sometimes you’ve got to admit that you’re licked, cry uncle and move on. I mean, that’s almost like the biblical plague. You’ve had about five or six, do you need 20? I mean, how many do you need? Locusts and frogs? I mean, how many signs do you need to give it up. Yet, you just, inner conviction. I think we might think it’s from the divine, others might think it’s some inner voice, whatever you believe, you have the courage to listen to inner voice that said, “Robert, don’t give up.”
Warwick F:
I mean, maybe you’ll have to put it on hiatus for 15-20 years, but the dream’s not going to die. That took courage. I want to get in a little bit into the second crucible, which is… I mean, that is just amazing when the doctor, he was your expert, and they said, “You can’t have these three kids to term. There’s no way they will be anything other than brain damaged, invalid, it makes no sense.” I imagine they probably said your wife’s life could be in danger, I’m guessing that conversation would have happened, and yet, this is a mutual decision obviously, you and your wife.
Warwick F:
To have the courage and conviction to say, we’re not doing that and that kind of epic moment when your wife stood up to that 6’3″ doctor and said, “Don’t even think about saying that we’re going to end this because it’s not happening.” I mean, the courage you both showed there was just incredible. I guess it’s a stupid question, but where’d you get that kind of courage to basically ignore all professional medical advice?
Robert K:
To tell you the truth, whenever I speak about this, I always say when it came to that moment, please don’t think for a second that my wife and I said no, that we were scared to death, scared to death. I almost hesitate to say courage. We were scared to death. Since that moment, I’ve heard four or five cases, almost once very year about triplets that were born deaf, blind, triplets that were born and one or two died. Man, I don’t even want to take any credit for that moment. I just don’t, I don’t feel comfortable with it because I just know I was shaking in my boots when we made that decision. I’ll tell you, if there was one moment, conversation, that impacted it, it was this.
Robert K:
The priest that I made Do You Wanna Dance with, I was talking to him years before this and I asked him a question, we were talking about abortion. This was years before any of this happened. I said, “Well, you know,” he was against abortion, I said, “Why?” He goes, his wife’s name is Maria because priests can get married if you get married before you become a priest. He said, “We would have a kid,” and I said, “Why?” He said, and this was the answer, “Because our marriage could survive it if something went wrong.” I remember thinking, my wife and I, I just felt that we could survive it and whatever God gave us, we would survive it. It would be hard, it would be tough, but I felt like we could survive it. By the way, oh, he actually worked, this is one other piece that I’m glad you brought this up because it’s significant.
Robert K:
That moment when I went into the church and I prayed, I said, “God, I don’t know why you put this on my heart, but I think this is what you want me to do with my life,” before I left the church that day, I said, “The next time I’m going to come back like this is when I find the woman that I want to marry and when I find whoever that is, I’m going to come back and I’m going to ask her in this church, in front of you.” I didn’t think that much of that to tell you the truth. I just know I meant it. When I met my wife 10 years later and we dated for I think a year or so, I knew that she was the one and I brought her back to that church. I proposed to her and I told her the story.
Robert K:
The funny thing is, I got to the part of the story, I said, “Then I told God that I’d bring my wife back,” and she’s staring at me and I thought, oh, I never … in my mind. I started the story from the beginning and repeated it. She went like… and I went the ring, the ring, yeah, the ring. I also didn’t realize how small those booths were. My butt kind of got stuck when I had to get down on one knee, but years went by, after all of these difficult times, the great recession, and the children, one of our kids had scoliosis, the mother-in-law who had an aneurism, the death of my grandma, my father, my mother, so much had happened.
Robert K:
For the longest time, we’ve been married I think what, almost 26 years now, and I, for the longest time I thought, boy, I really was a good judge of character. I think up until about 25 years I thought, man, I was… boy, I really was… and then it started to dawn on me, there’s no way in two years of dating or whatever it was, now, it wasn’t my judge of my character. Yeah, I’m sure that played something into it, but what I realized was the significant impact of going in front of God and saying, “When I find her, I’m bringing her back and ask her to marry me in front of God.” I think that meant so much to God.
Robert K:
The reason why I feel that way is because when my children turned 21, they’re the age I was when I went in there and I thought, man, if one of my kids did that, first of all, it would just shock me and then I would think, wow, that’s really something at 21 to go in and say that in front of God. I think that was, also all of these things this crucible moment came in …
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, it’s that sense of honoring the Lord with your marriage and it’s just saying, “God, you show me the sign, I want to follow you.” I mean, you honor him, he’ll honor you. Now, I do want to talk about Faith, Hope and Love, but I want just for the listeners who are listening, thinking, well, how did this guy survive? How is he not in some asylum or something? I mean, how is he even vaguely sane after the thing with the movie and then the triplets. I mean, they did survive, but could have taken 50 years off your life or age you or something. How did you bounce back from those experiences? I mean, you’ve got this great movie coming out, but it’s not like I’m sure life is just all so easy and it’s just been like living at Disney World every day. I mean, it’s probably still challenging, so for the listener-
Robert K:
No-
Warwick F:
… how did you get beyond those two very challenging circumstances and not let it define your whole life and be bitter and angry and I don’t know what?
Robert K:
To add to your point there, even the release of this film, along the way everyone told me don’t put it in movie theaters. You’re going to regret it. We opened it in 40 cities over a period of three months. People told me when we went to the premier, do not have it. There was one meeting I went to and this one manager told me, “Do not have it in that theater. You will regret it. It’s 850 seats and,” he said, “you’re going to get a couple hundred people in there and you’re going to be embarrassed and you’re going to embarrass everybody else.”
Robert K:
I got in the car and was driving back home, and I could literally… I could literally feel God laughing next to me. Saying, now, let me get this right. I walked on water, rose from the dead, healed the deaf, the blind, the dumb, but you don’t think I can fill that theater, Bob. Is that kind of what you said? Actually, when I parked the car, I went inside, I booked the theater, it was sold out. We were oversold that night by 250 people, but how did I get through that period? One foot in front of the other. It was right in the middle of all this, 2008, the great recession hit and it was just one foot in front of the other, hard, hard, hard work.
Robert K:
There were nights at work where I would have to stay overnight working and also, 15 years later, when I made the next film, Christmas with the Karountzoses, I didn’t know if anybody even remembered me. Even now I still feel that way, so I wasn’t sure whether there was going to be anybody out there caring what I did and what movie I made, but without… one of the comments I always hear with Faith, Hope and Love is thank you for making a faith-based film that didn’t pound me over the head with religion. My comments to you about when I talk about God and getting me through those hard times, it was tough, it was a struggle. There were times when I thought, God, how am I going to get through all this? As my friend Mike would say, “God squeezes, but he doesn’t strangles.” I found that to be true. What God, I think, was doing during that time was fortifying me for the road up ahead. The fight up ahead, and the battles up ahead.
Gary S:
The extraordinary part of all the stories that you’ve told, Robert, you had a vision in the aftermath of those crucibles. You talked about it. About offering hope to people. One of the things that we talk about, that Warwick talks about at Crucible Leadership, is the key to getting beyond crucible moments is to have a vision that points you toward a life of significance. To talk about Faith, Hope and Love, it’s very interesting that in that film, your lead character, Jimmy Hope, played by you, has personal and professional crucible experiences. He is doing poorly at this job. He gets fired, but knows his boss so well, that he manages to delay the firing, to have one last chance to work on a really, really tough account in this advertising agency, so there’s the professional crucible.
Gary S:
On a personal front, his wife has passed away a few years earlier and he’s left to raise his two daughters on his own. For you to say that movie’s about hope and that’s where your character’s at, how does that play out? Tell listeners a little bit about, without giving away too much, so that they want to actually see the movie, how the movie deals in those subjects, sort of mirrors your life it seems, a little bit.
Robert K:
Yeah. One of the great compliments we’ve received on this film is that you know Gary, you would think I’d have it all figured out by now, but I’m constantly refining it and thinking, what am I doing this for? Specifically, what am I doing this for and what is it that I’m bringing that when I look in retrospect, oh, that’s what you brought to this filmmaking business? I think what it is, is this. The films that I’m heading towards like a locomotive is faith-based films, they’ve been stereotypical, they’ve been stiff, they’ve been poorly acted, they don’t have much entertainment value, and you just go, oh, you wonder why we as Christians keep getting pigeonholed.
Robert K:
The same way is, when I speak, I talk about this. When Spike Lee came out with, She’s Gotta Have It, I remember sitting in that audience with 95% African American audience and they were screaming at the film. Why? Because up until that point, when you saw an African American character, they were a pimp, they were a thug. Then, all of a sudden you had someone came along, said, “We’re more than that.” Then, you see it, you go, holy man, they responded. The same thing, I think, is happening with Christians today. When you look at films, 95% of them that portray Christians, it’s dull, it’s flat, or they pick one of two subject matters. They went to heaven, they came back or it’s the old testament, but it’s not the day-to-day life that you and I go through.
Robert K:
With Jimmy Hope, and what you were talking about, I wanted to show real life problems. You know Warwick, what you were saying, “Well, how did you get through it?” You know what I have found, because that’s why I go on the road with the film and I go to these screenings and I meet the people. I have found that when I’m at those screenings, that mothers will come up after me and someone will whisper in my ear, “My son committed suicide. This is the first time I laughed.” I’ll come up and someone say, “I just lost my husband.” What I have found, everybody’s going through similar stuff that I went through and when God allows you to go through what I went through and what Jimmy Hope went through, you become so much more empathetic towards the human condition.
Robert K:
When I see people post stuff on social media or when they call me or email me, I’ll tell you, it breaks my heart and the only way I have to process it and get through it is by making these movies and taking these moments back out there and saying, “I’m with you, I hear you, and there’s hope.”
Gary S:
There was a-
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Robert K:
Does that make sense?
Warwick F:
That’s right. One of the things that we talk about on Crucible Leadership, it sounds a bit trite, but it’s pain for a purpose. We don’t always know why, I mean, God obviously doesn’t cause pain, but why does he allow things to happen? You’re right. It does give you empathy. I mean, my crucibles are very different than yours, but having lost a large family media business, and if you google me, it’s not particularly favorable. They do have a Wikipedia entry, it’s got a young, hot-headed kid, could have had it all, but blew it. It will probably always be that way, so it gives you a sense of empathy for people, but a couple things that is remarkable about your story, many, but this sense of resilience. There’s one aspect I want to mildly disagree with you in the sense if you very humbly say, “Okay, I wasn’t courageous,” but you look up courage, many definitions of courage is something like this. That even when you were fearful and you just didn’t think you could make it, somehow you find the strength to take one more step.
Warwick F:
For people of faith, well maybe the ability to take one more step comes from above, but I mean, courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is being able to take a step even when you’re quaking in your boots. That was kind of the definition of courage that you were going through. I mean, some listeners won’t be people of faith, but whether you call it faith or not, whether it’s with the decision whether to abort your triplets, one or all of them, or the decision about to put your movie on hold, career on hold for a while, or the decision to keep going long-term, it’s listening to their inner voice.
Warwick F:
Maybe you don’t believe in God or maybe it’s more of an ethereal supreme being or however your definition is, you listen to that inner voice, that still small voice that says, “You know what? This is the right thing to do.” Don’t ignore that. You didn’t ignore that voice in those critical moments, so the listeners of whatever faith, just the courage that you displayed in listening to that inner voice, putting your family first, I don’t know. You do that, you feel like God, universe, in some fashion, maybe not the way we would like or expect, will honor that. Now, what you’re doing with Faith, Hope and Love, it’s just… you’re right. I mean, the cliché of Christian movies is yeah, poorly acted, poorly directed, poor plots, poor story, poor everything and then you slap Jesus on it. Okay?
Robert K:
Right.
Warwick F:
When you have people of faith cringing, it’s not a good sign. No.
Robert K:
No, my sister… my sister’s a very religious woman and she said, “I don’t go to them anymore.”
Warwick F:
The movie that you made, it made you laugh, cry, it was funny, it’s compelling, great acting. Being from Australia, obviously, loved the fact that the lead actress is Australian. Yeah, exactly.
Robert K:
Peta Murgatroyd
Warwick F:
That was so fun, so I mean, I applaud you for what you’re doing in really just ignoring the naysayers, the people who say, “Robert, give it up. Give it up. You’ll never make it. Okay?” Even now, they’re probably saying, “Okay, maybe this will work,” but you’re not going to be Christopher Columbus or Robert Zemeckis or whoever these people are, and you probably think, okay, so what? Okay? I don’t need to make movies that gross as much as Star Wars. That’d be nice, but then I’m sure you’d be quite happy if it didn’t gross that much. Right?
Robert K:
Yeah. I think once God… you know Gary asked me the same thing, how did I get through all this? You know that the short answer, without being heavy handed, there’s no question about it. God had such compassion on me and such kindness toward me. There’s many a day I came in, I have an icon of Christ up on my wall and, boy, there’s been many a day that I came in and cried in front of that icon and said, “Thank you.” I mean, really, genuinely, if I said one thing over and over again in that moment, it was, “I owe you my life.” That’s what I’m going to do is, the parable of the talents, I’m trying to use whatever God gave me, whether it’s dancing or writing or editing, producing, whatever it is, because I’m hopeful when that moment comes when I am with him that he does say, “Well done my son,” and not, “Why weren’t you singing? I gave you talent to sing. What was wrong with you?”
Gary S:
There is a line in Faith, Hope and Love, Robert, I was watching the movie on a Saturday night with my wife and I actually got up from the couch and wrote this line down because I wanted to ask you about it. It’s the scene where Jimmy and Hope are on the rooftop and he’s explaining his faith to her because she has no faith in the beginning and she’s intrigued by his faith and the hope that comes from his faith and it’s attractive to her. He’s explaining to her about the death of his wife and how that didn’t kill his faith, that actually helped augment it, it strengthened his faith. Your character says this in explaining to Faith why he was able to still have faith. Jimmy says that he prayed to God that if he could get me through that, his wife’s death, I’d never be casual about my faith again. That struck me when I heard that, Robert, that that wasn’t a line that Robert Krantz made up as a screenwriter. That was a line that Robert Krantz lived as a man.
Robert K:
Not only myself, but when I’m sitting in screenings, I can feel that moment resonates with audience because it’s doing one thing. It’s allowing the audience to move into Jimmy’s shoes in saying, “Where am I on that spectrum?” I can feel it, that when he said that, “I was a casual Christian,” at the start of that speech, I can feel that moment has done so much more, Gary, than the typical thing that you’ve seen in movies, which is movies start out with somebody who’s very angry at God and then they convert. I didn’t want to go down that road. I wanted to show what I perceived to be, what I’ve gone through, and what I’ve perceived for friends and acquaintances go through, which is you’re in that boxing ring with life, and life hits you in the chops. You wobble and you’re trying to get your bearings and you’re trying not to go down for the count.
Robert K:
I’ve always found that God is that hand that comes in and steadies you and gets your back up there. You’re right. That is what I try to do with my life is to not be casual about it and do things like this. Also, I don’t know if either of you’ve had a chance to go up on social media, or Rotten Tomatoes, we had a 97% audience approval. That movie, there is something about it that is just resonating with people and I think it’s the things that we’re talking about.
Gary S:
This would be a great time, Robert, for you to tell listeners how they can get their own copy. It is now on DVD, came out in the spring of 2019, but now it’s on DVD. How can they get their own copy and see for themselves what Faith, Hope and Love is all about?
Robert K:
If you go to… there’s one place. Do not go to Amazon. Apparently, there’s urban company up there that’s selling it and they’re giving out German copies for German. Maybe the people have the German rights to it and people are frustrated, so don’t do that. If you go to our website, and I’ll spell it for you. It’s called EllinasMultimedia.com. It’s E-L-L-I-N-A-S, Multimedia, M-U-L-T-I-M-E-D-I-A dot com, you can get the DVD and they ship out the same day and they get there in three to five days, so it’s EllinasMultimedia.com. As my friend, Elaine, says, “Could you have made it a longer dot com title?”
Gary S:
Well, it could have been your birth name dot come. That would have been extraordinarily long, too. As we start moving toward doing what I like to call land the plane, one of the things that Warwick and I wanted to chat with you about is Crucible Leadership is all about, not the end, but the goal of coming out of a crucible is to lead a life of significance. It occurs to me that Hollywood, and I’ve lived there, I worked in publicity for the film industry for three to four years, Hollywood is not an easy place to pursue significance, either professionally or personally. Professionally, in the movie business, opening weekend is everything. If you don’t do great there, people forget about you.
Gary S:
Personally, look at the headlines and the stories of marriages that fall apart. It’s not an easy place to pursue significance and yet, you’ve been able to do it. I think one of the things… I want to ask you how you did that, but I want listeners to understand that it’s not where you’re placed, but what’s placed in you that paves the road to a life of significance. I think you’ve talked about that, Robert, but how have you found a way to live a life of significance, if not in Hollywood proper, in Orange County, and in the motion picture industry?
Robert K:
First of all, I have nothing to do with Hollywood. I don’t go up there, I’m not part of that whole… I just don’t. I don’t like it. Nothing against it, but I just… it’s not me. There’s an element of heaven that’s going to be… I think I’m going to do Falling in Love with Sophia, the book I wrote next. There’s also an original screenplay that I’m writing that has an element of heaven in it, so I’ve been reading a lot about it. One of the things that I’ve read is kind of how I feel, how I want my life to be. I’m not saying that I’ve nailed this yet, but it’s definitely… we talk about a life of significance, I read when you get to heaven, God plays a movie and that movie is of you in all the moments in your life when you gave out love.
Robert K:
I’ve thought about that and I think that what I constantly try to do… I’ve missed the mark, I’ve missed… there’s certain people in my life be going, “Oh, okay, what about… do you remember… Yeah, you forgot about that love moment,” but I think what I’m trying to do every step of the way with people I come in contact… whether it’s somebody that delivers something to our office, whether it’s one of my children, whether it’s an acquaintance, I’m doing my best to if you drop a pebble or rock or boulder in water, the pebble has very little ripples. The rock has more, the boulder has the most ripples. I’m trying to be that boulder with when I drop in, so it has all those ringlets that come out and I’m trying to touch as many people’s lives with goodness that I can. Not easy. I get pissed off like everybody else, but I’m trying to lead a life of significance that way.
Robert K:
Paul was going out in the gospel, he was just going from town to town, person to person. It wasn’t like Paul, can you imagine, Paul must have said to God, “Invent the internet already. Come on. Speed this up. Let’s get this going.” You know what I mean? “What am I almost dying in this shipwreck for?” I mean… so I keep my mouth shut and I’m just trying to go from person to person, moments like this, and I try and just let God do what he does. If it ends up being there’s a hundred people I touch in my life, if it’s a million, whatever he decides I’m convinced my job is in this life of significance is to go out and put out these films, touch as many people as I can, and also my personal life, at the end of it, when they write my epithet, I want them to say, “He was a phenomenal husband, he was a phenomenal father,” and hopefully with these movies, “he was a phenomenal filmmaker that touched people with these faith-based films.”
Gary S:
That is, I think, a great place to put down the landing gear and land the plane. Warwick talks all the time, Robert, he talks all the time about what do you want on your tombstone and one of the things that we discovered as we were talking about that concept is if you look at the three greatest singers in three genres, country, Johnny Cash, Rock and Roll, Elvis Presley, standards, jazz singer Frank Sinatra. I looked up all of their headstones. Their headstones don’t talk about all the gold records and all the concerts and all the fans. Johnny Cash has a psalm on his, Frank Sinatra’s simply says, “The best is yet to come,” and Elvis Presley’s talks about being a son and a father. At the end of the day, those are the things that matter.
Gary S:
Hopefully, listener, you have really, in our time together today, heard about some things that matter and it’s Warwick’s hope and it’s Robert’s hope, that out of this conversation that we’ve had today, out of Robert being so transparent, Warwick talking about his own crucible experiences, that you draw hope from that, you draw perhaps insight, ideas for how you, too, can live a life of significance beyond your crucible moment.
Gary S:
If you’d like to learn more about Crucible Leadership, you can visit us on our website, at CrucibleLeadership.com. If you want to engage us on social media, you can go to Facebook and that’s found at Facebook/CrucibleLeadership. If you’d like to engage with Warwick and Crucible Leadership on LinkedIn, that’s at Warwick Fairfax, that is with the silent W in the middle, W-A-R-W-I-C-K Fairfax on LinkedIn. Until next time, when we talk about how to live and lead with significance, remember that your crucible moments, as Robert has described today, your crucible moments are not the end of your story. They are the beginning, they can be the beginning of a story, a new chapter in your story that leads to the best destination possible, a life of significance.
