If you’ve had a crucible experience, you are going to have to persevere through feelings of loss and fear, as well as additional setbacks, as you chart your course to a life of significance. Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax shares stories from his family history (his great-great grandfather John Fairfax) and world history (Winston Churchill), while also discussing his own efforts to claw his way back emotionally and practically after losing $2.25 billion — and the company itself — in a failed takeover of the family media dynasty he inherited. Perseverance is so critical to the stories of these men — and every man or woman who seeks to bounce back from a crucible experience — that it should be considered a gift that flows from our most challenging circumstances. “In our lowest moments,” Warwick tells co-host Gary Schneeberger, we find strength and courage and perseverance we never knew we had.”
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Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everyone to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, your co-host of the podcast and the Communications Director of Crucible leadership and you have clicked play. You have subscribed to, you have loaded, uploaded. You are listening to a podcast that helps people live and lead with significance. That’s the goal of Beyond the Crucible, to help you live and lead with significance, and we do that through the prism of crucible experiences. Those moments in life, we all recognize them. We may not call them crucible experiences when we have gone through them, but we recognize them as painful failures and setbacks that can feel like the world has changed. The course of the river of your life has been altered.
Gary S:
The trajectory of where you’re headed has shifted. They are painful experiences, but they’re not the end of your story. They are in many cases, the beginning of your story, if you do what we encourage you to do on this podcast, which is to learn the lessons of those crucible experiences, to apply those lessons, to craft a vision, to make that vision a reality, and to live a life that’s pointed to a life of significance. That’s what we talk about here at Beyond the Crucible. With us as always, is the architect, the author of Crucible Leadership, and the host of Beyond the Crucible, Warwick Fairfax.
Warwick F:
Hey, Gary, great to be here.
Gary S:
Warwick, we’ve got an indispensable subject I think we’re talking about today, and that is perseverance. One of the things, before we really get into talking about how perseverance works in our lives and how specifically it applies to leadership and Crucible Leadership, is that it seems that crucibles are the soil from which perseverance can grow. In other words, it’s really hard to envision a circumstance where you can move beyond your crucible, without having a measure of perseverance in your life. Is that a fair statement?
Warwick F:
Yes, Gary, absolutely. Many of us will go through a crucible of one description another it could be a business failure, getting fired, health challenge, loss of a loved one, and it’s not easy to come back from devastating setbacks. But without perseverance, it’s really tough to come back, and we’ll talk more about this as our discussion continues. It’s almost a choice to get out of bed or not. Do I this day, get out of bed and say, okay, I’m in a direst of circumstances, the lowest of lows, but I’m going to keep going. Perseverance is really the key to bouncing back from a crucible experience and certainly, the key to a fulfilling life or even to be a successful leader. I can’t think of any leader that I can think of that succeeded in their field without perseverance. You could pick business, athletics, the arts. It’s just tough. There’s setback after setback, disappointment after disappointment, but that sense of perseverance is the key to life and leadership and the key to bouncing back from crucibles.
Gary S:
It is true that it’s very hard to be a leader, to make your mark on society in whatever way that you choose to do it, without having some measure of perseverance. I do, as I always do when we do one of these episodes where it’s just the two of us talking about a principle of crucible leadership, I did a search for quotes about perseverance, like I do a search for quotes about character, and quotes about humility and about transparency and it returned, that search on Google returned 35,000 results. Perseverance is a topic that people talk about and that people who have achieved some level of significance slash success have had to muster in their lives. That’s why they talk about it.
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Gary S:
You said something when we were talking about how we were going to go through this episode yesterday. You said something I thought was just really poetic, where you talked about the gift of a crucible, and that the fruit of that, and one of the fruits of the gift of a crucible is perseverance. Explain what you meant by that.
Warwick F:
Crucibles are never fun, but out of the ashes of your crucible experience can come a vision. It could be to help others that have, if you’d been through terrible circumstances, whether it’s bereavement, losing a loved one, or abuse, you can have the sense of you want to help other people and so out of the ashes, a crucible experience can come as a sense of perseverance, a sense of wanting to help others to make a difference. Sometimes in our lowest moments, we find strength and courage and perseverance that we never knew we had. It’s really is, somebody once said, one of our recent podcast guests, we learn the most during the low points rather than the high point. It doesn’t feel fun at the time. It feels agonizing, excruciating but years down the track we’ll never really say, gosh I’m so glad I went through it, but there are things we learned about ourselves and about who we are and what our deepest desires and passions about and just how much character and strength and perseverance we have. That can be the fruit of a crucible experience.
Gary S:
That gift can truly be knowing that we can persevere. Knowing that we can survive. We talk about crucible experiences, difficult things that occur in life. One of those 33,000 quotes that I did pull is from Dr. Martin Luther King jr, and I just thought it was just extraordinarily phrased when he said this, “If you can’t fly, then run. If you can’t run, then walk. If you can’t walk, then crawl. But whatever you do, you have to keep moving forward.” At its core, especially in relation to leadership and crucible leadership moving forward, keeping in motion, keeping pressing toward the vision and the goal. That’s really what perseverance looks like in the universe that we’re talking about here, isn’t it?
Warwick F:
It is. That’s a very good quote and that is so true. Part of it is getting up every morning. It’s what am I going to do positively to move forward? If you’re unemployed, okay what is it I can do to find a job? Where can I go? Places I can volunteer, employment agencies who do I know? Maybe if you’ve been through some bereavement or abuse, how can I turn this experience to help others? So It’s really getting up in the morning and saying, okay, what positive step can I take today? I may not have the end vision or the total clarity about where this is going, but what’s something positive I can do today? To use an over worn sports analogy, what could I do to move the ball a few yards down the field?
Warwick F:
The touchdown may be so far away you can’t even see it, but don’t get so focused on, okay, there’s these millions of things that I got to do, how am I going to do at all? It’s what one thing can I do today that’s a positive step to move forward? Really that’s probably the key to perseverance as we were discussing earlier. It’s a choice. It’s a choice to move forward. There are several things that’s a bigger a topic, but I think of forgiveness. You can be sitting in bed saying, I’m not going to get out of bed today and do anything positive because I’m just going to sit and be angry at those people that hurt me or did me in or I’m going to be angry at myself.
Warwick F:
If that’s holding you back, which anger and resentment and lack of forgiveness can, it’s like a millstone around our neck. I don’t have to agree with things. I don’t have to say what happened was right, but I’m going to put that aside and I’m going to move forward because if it’s not serving me time to toss those negative emotions away. What positive thing can I do today? It’s really a choice to say, okay, no matter what’s happened in the past, how can I move forward? What one positive thing can I do today? That is the key because over days, weeks, months and years those series of positive things will almost inevitably lead to a very positive direction. If you keep doing that or at least it’s certainly better than the alternative.
Gary S:
That’s very wise to point out that no matter what happened in the past, you have to move on, move forward as that quote from Martin Luther King indicated. But there’s also sometimes no matter what may happen in the future, sometimes what can lead us to not want to get out of bed figuratively or literally is that we fear something that’s coming up. Fear of something that’s coming down the road. We fear where things might lead. It’s interesting that perseverance can be tied to what has come before and what may be coming up ahead that might be fearful to us. What would be your advice, Warwick? There are people listening right now and they’re in an emotional place where they don’t know if they have perseverance, they don’t know if they can muster perseverance. I know you said get up, put one foot in front of the other, but from an emotional perspective, how can listeners orient themselves to take that step? To put that left foot in front of the right foot and get moving.
Warwick F:
I think of two words and that’s hope and fear. Follow hope, not fear. I think of Margie Warrell who had on the podcast a bit ago and she is all about helping women and men be brave and toss away fear. She uses this phrase for the sake of what? We cannot let fear control us. It’s often fear is an emotion. Sometimes it can be helpful, there’s primitive men and women we’re out in the wilderness and bears coming, okay it’s understandable to be fearful. Let’s run. I get that.
Gary S:
Survival instinct.
Warwick F:
There’s a reason for it but don’t let the fear of the unknown or what if I fail again? What if I’m humiliated again? What if, what if, what if? It’s like, okay, that could happen, but you’ve got to be willing to take a risk. That’s a key part of perseverance is be willing to take a risk and that’s where, again, I love the phrase that Margie uses for the sake of what? It helps to have a vision. It maybe you’re a cancer survivor or again, an abuse survivor, your notion, maybe I want to help other people who are in my situation. That’s for the sake of what? I know I’m fearful. I know I might be rejected but this is too important. This is more than just me. I want to help other people.
Warwick F:
It’s that sense of hope, it’s that sense of cause it’s the vision. Maybe you’ve got a business that you have an idea of that you think will really help people. I’m a big believer with significance for the sake of being something that is more than just focused on yourself because to me to overcome fear and inertia when it’s for the sake of other people that to me is a higher wattage lamp or it has greater strength to pull you out of a funk and out of a, it’s all hopeless. Fear is a natural part of being human but I think it’s for the sense of hope, for the sake of what that says, okay, I know I’m fearful, I get that but I choose not to let my fears define me.
Warwick F:
Yes, I’ll be willing to fail. Maybe I’ll be mocked and rejected but you know what? This is too important, it’s not about me. It’s about helping others. That’s probably the key to conquering fear, which is the biggest reason you just don’t want to get out of bed. It’s like I was hurt badly last time. I’m never going to emerge again because I don’t want to get hurt. That’s understandable but you can’t let fear control your life. That leads to despondency and I think Margie Warrell also uses this phrase from Thoreau, which I love, which is we don’t want to lead lives of quiet desperation. You don’t want to be that man or that woman. You don’t want to be that person. The way to avoid living a life of quiet desperation is one foot in front of the other, get out of bed and just what is it that’s going to motivate you to take that next step? How can helping people really be part of that? That’s the key. It’s hope of a fear.
Gary S:
It sounds like as you described that, and I hope you hear this listeners, it sounds like the fuel, the same fuel that fuels being able to have perseverance, the same fuel of perseverance is the fuel of significance. Those things, a vision, a vision will lead you to a life of significance. If you know what it is you want to accomplish to help others, that will drive you. But that same vision will lead you to perseverance and lead you to bounce off walls that want to block you and find ways around walls that want to block you.
Warwick F:
Exactly. You have to have fuel and the fuel is vision, significance. That’s what helps you with perseverance. We’ll talk later about some examples from history and my family, in fact, my own life but that’s pretty much the key is got to be something that’s motivating you. Maybe you kind of destitute and your family is sort of in and out of halfway homes for the sake of what could be, I want my family to have a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs and that’s motivating, that’s a powerful vision too. It’s for the sake of what, what is your why that really can fuel you to be able to move forward.
Gary S:
Okay. You’ve just jumped ahead and what I was going to do by saying that it’s so fascinating. We did not talk about this listeners, we did not use the phrase, what is your why prior to this recording, but I pulled for the end of this podcast, I’m going to list three things that come from top business magazines about how you can find perseverance, how you can live in and pursue perseverance. One of the things, I’m going to give one of them away now, I’ll give two more at the end but one of the three things I was going to talk about, Success Magazine pointed out that fuel for perseverance is to remember your why. What is your vision? From a leadership perspective, a business perspective, that’s what Success Magazine in addition to you Warwick say is extremely important. We have two more coming towards the end. You mentioned Warwick, no go ahead.
Warwick F:
Just on that one real briefly. Especially in the world of crucible leadership, you’ve gone through a crucible, a devastating failure, a personal setback. The why can be rooted in, as I mentioned before, the ashes of that crucible experience. Whether it’s business failure or getting fired, a divorce, abused, loss of a loved one, it can be, okay, how can I use my pain to help others? When you’ve gone through certain experiences, it gives you a unique empathy for others. That’s really the key I find is often the why will come out of the ashes of the crucible. Doesn’t have to, but it often does.
Gary S:
That goes back listener and Warwick, that goes back to what I said at the top of the episode. That word that you said about the gift of the crucible, the gift of the crucible is the why for what it is that you’re going to pursue. You mentioned Warwick that we’re going to start talking about some examples and I’d like to have you, if you would start with a family example, your great, great grandfather, John Fairfax, because I have here, if you’re watching on YouTube, you’ll see it. I have here the book that you quote often on the life of John Fairfax. After you set up the story, Warwick about how perseverance played such a big role in John Fairfax’s founding of the media company that you were heir to, I want to read a couple of paragraphs from the book that really hammer home that really elucidate the perseverance that he and his wife Sarah had. Share with listeners a little bit about your great, great grandfather and his truly, truly perseverant life.
Warwick F:
John Fairfax came out from Australia in the late 1830s. He had started a newspaper in Leamington in England and he was sued by a local lawyer twice. The judge ruled in John Fairfax’s favor that the story was accurate, that it was not liable, but the court costs ended up bankrupted him even though he was justified in the court. He comes out to Australia with his young family with almost nothing, but that really didn’t discourage him. He had this vision of a paper that would in this young colony of Australia, and just a couple of things that he said to me it’s interesting. This dream kind of wouldn’t die. He was the local librarian in what’s now the State Library of New South Wales. He and the guy Charles Kemp, who would become the editor of the paper while John ran the business side they would sit long into the night and they had this vision of this newspaper, which would be the Sydney Morning Herald.
Warwick F:
They called it the plan because they wanted to buy it and run it collectively. This newspaper would be without fear to express opinion without their approach of self-interest. Sworn to no master and free from the narrow interest of sectarianism. It was a vision of how it would serve people without being beholden to one party or another. He talked about doing their utmost for the improvement and growth of the colony. John would handle the business side. His partner Charles Kemp would handle the journalistic side and together they collaborate on the editorial. They would fight for just causes and expose abuses. It was very idealistic, a very strong vision and it carried them through. One other brief thing almost within the same year that they bought the paper Sydney Morning Herald in 1841 Australia went through a big recession and the company was on a knife edge.
Warwick F:
They had to rally their employees and say, look, we’re going to have to cut wages back a bit. We’re going to cut back what we receive as partners, but I promise you’ll have a job and we’ll do our best to pay you back. It wasn’t easy, but what got them through that first crisis after they bought the paper, it was their belief in the vision that this was too important. They were going to do their level best to keep going. The vision really enabled John to get over his past disappointment in England, prior bankruptcy of his paper, the unjust treatment of that lawyer and just ability to get through the 1841 recession.
Gary S:
It also I’m going to read from this book the story of John Fairfax published in 1941 this was the hundredth year of Fairfax Media, the company that your great, great grandfather started. His vision also led him over the fear of what it was like moving from England to Australia. I want to read just a couple of paragraphs from this book because it’s so compelling about where perseverance comes from and how to live it. The book says this as they approached the coast, this is John and his wife Sarah. “John saw the stark forbidding barrenness of the land. He felt a terrible despondency and a concern for Sarah and her sick baby and the fear he felt for the future weighed upon him. He stood alone on the spray swept deck with his arms folded, bracing himself against the lurch of the ship as she pounded onwards and looked out at the sterile hope shattering strip of coastline that was the Southern border of his future homeland.”
Gary S:
“He thought of the responsibility, which was his of providing for a wife, a mother, and four children, and he thought of the 12 sovereigns, just 12 sovereigns which stood between them and starvation. He bowed his head and fear like ice stole over his heart better surely to have remained poor in Leamington than to starve in that sandy soulless wilderness.” Then this happens. “He felt a touch and a hand stole into his.”
Gary S:
“It was Sarah. She looked pale and ill and she staggered in her weakness as the ship plunged and shook”. This is a quote that I’ve seen you use before Warwick, but this is what Sarah John’s wife said to him, “Do not worry about me or the children. I will be brave and helpful and whatever God may send or may take away my love for you is the strongest thing I have in life and it will have no death. I do not worry about you. I know what you can do and it is much. I know your strength of purpose, your sound vigorous brain and your sense of honor. You are well armed John for any fray and you will win and I will win not only success but content and great happiness.” One of the aspects of perseverance for him was the support of his wife.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. It’s really quite remarkable as they were headed to Australia in the late 1830s it’s a four to six month voyage, they had young kids, one was very ill and sadly died soon after they made it to Sydney and she was not doing well, John was on the deck of this ship, they were looking as they were headed past West Australia, south, they looked at the barren wasteland and it just looked forbidding. It just looked like a terrible place. What are they doing? Yet she sensed it. She came up and just gave him this such love and unconditional support that having family and friends who are for us no matter what, that’s also one of the keys to perseverance.
Warwick F:
People that believe in you. There aren’t too many people that have achieved great things, men or women that don’t have a spouse, family or friends that were for them. There might be one or two, but it’s so much easier when you have people that believe in you that can keep you going just that one more step. He did in Sarah, a woman of great faith and she believed in him and believe in the vision that they were going to craft in this new colony of Australia.
Gary S:
That’s just one of the examples. You have some other examples from history of other, again, people that you have heard of and people that you haven’t heard of necessarily but there are people throughout history as we said at the outset to become a quote unquote great man or woman, a woman who’s left a mark on society of significance. You have had to exhibit persistence. True?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I think of another one when I think of great leaders in history who had perseverance. I think of Winston Churchill, he was somebody that he made mistakes. He tended to challenge leadership, which leadership doesn’t tend to like I’m afraid. Sometimes he was on the right side of history and sometimes not. But in the early thirties I think it was Stanley Baldwin was prime minister he challenged him maybe one too many times and he was back on the backbenches. In other words, he wasn’t in the Cabinet, he was in the wastelands so to speak of politics. The thirties are called wilderness years for Churchill. During that time from somewhere around about 33 on, Adolf Hitler started rising to power in Germany and Winston Churchill could see the danger, could see that if we don’t do something, things are going to get so much worse.
Warwick F:
He kept almost like a voice in the wilderness, like a Don Quixote saying, you got to watch this guy. They said, well, there’s old Winston. He was old even at the thirties, warmongering running around, shaking his fist at windmills. Just ignore him. It’s hard to ignore because he’s eloquent and bombastic, but let’s do our best it’ll all go away. Basically they were saying, let’s hide under the covers and maybe everything will just solve itself. But yet he never gave up. He kept speaking and trying to warn the nation, indeed the world about the dangers of Adolf Hitler but many didn’t listen. Gradually things started turning when Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia and it’s like, maybe Winston was right and then he invaded Poland, then in September 1939 World War II started and eventually the miraculous happened and he became prime minister and that’s where his perseverance came to the fore, some of the greatest speeches in the English speaking language occurred during those years.
Warwick F:
Just after he took power in May 1940, he gave this speech to parliament, which has these famous phrases, “I have nothing to offer, but blood, toil, tears and sweat.” He said in the same speech, “Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be. For without victory, there is no survival.” At that point it was really, it was before the US got in the war in December 1941, it was in 1940 those were dark years. It felt like Britain and the Commonwealth against all of the might of Germany. Then a few months later in 1940 he gave this famous speech. He said, “We shall not flag or fail. We shall fight in France. We shall fight on the seas and oceans…”
Warwick F:
“We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the field and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender.” That sense of belief that they would prevail when it didn’t look so good at the time the sense of perseverance and if you bring it back to, well how can we relate to this, but what was his why for the sake of what? Well, it was for the sake of the preservation of Britain as a free country and not being slaves to Nazi terror and the horrors of what the Nazi regime brought to the countries in Europe that they conquered. It was just this belief that we will find a way.
Warwick F:
Somehow they did. They found a way in the Battle of Britain to hold off the mighty Luftwaffe with the RAF. It was grim but that sense of perseverance being completely focused on the task at hand. He never let resentment or grudges hold him back. He just threw them off. He didn’t have time for that kind of stuff, and so he didn’t. He was totally focused on his goal, which is preserving his nation. That was a very compelling vision and he was able to inspire a nation like few others ever have. You heard Winston Churchill speak, it’s like you know what Winston thinks we’re going to do this. We’re going to find a way. We’ll find a way to survive. Just one more day, one more day of freedom in this particular case.
Gary S:
Now, I can imagine there are listeners right now who have just heard the story of John Fairfax, your great, great grandfather and Winston Churchill, two men who left pretty big legacies. Winston Churchill, as you pointed out, saved Britain, may have saved civilization in some sense as we know it. Your great, great grandfather created this media dynasty that lasted five generations and created deeper legacies of faith and character that are now in their sixth generation with your children and there may be people who hear that and go, my goodness, I can’t be a John Fairfax and I can’t be a Winston Churchill. I don’t know that I can do that. But that’s not the point. Perseverance leading to significance does not have to be that grand, does it?
Warwick F:
No. I can think of an example in my own life. As listeners will know from a prior podcast, after my $2.25 billion takeover failed and ultimately failed in late 1990 company went bankrupt. I felt responsible, certainly significantly responsible for the company falling out of family hands. It was a crushing blow. I tried to find work, but it’s hard when you got a resume that says out of work media mogul. I tried to persuade people look, I’m humble, I work hard. It’s like, right, forget it. I was desperate and it’s just sometimes the smallest, most insignificant steps, one of the things about perseverance is you’ve got to park your desire to not do things that are beneath you, you’ve got to be willing to do anything basically. One of the things I did is I went to some temp agency that found temporary positions for accountants and financial analysts.
Warwick F:
Well, a number of years before I’d worked on Wall Street and I knew I could do financial analysis and say, okay, great, well we have this little program that will test your understanding of spreadsheets on Excel. At the time I was actually pretty good. It was like, you scored well, you actually know how to do spreadsheets. I guess I do. I ended up having a temporary job at some sports company actually was a pretty big sports manufacturer. It just had an office in Maryland and I did some budgeting work and I seemed to do that okay. The same temp agency said, well, you’ve got good reviews from that employer. We’ve got another temporary position at a local aviation services company doing financial analysis. That temporary position at that company in Maryland turned into a permanent position where I worked for about six years.
Warwick F:
Then from there I went to coaching and moved on, but it was just taking one step. Okay. It feels a bit humiliating as a Harvard MBA to go to some temp agency that are looking for, paying in a minimal hourly wages for some financial analyst thing and I have a Harvard MBA. People in my class are working their way up to be vice president somewhere. But that was just one small step on the journey. I didn’t know where that was going to lead and that’s one of the other secrets of perseverance is I didn’t know that from this temp job at a sports company to an aviation services company to coaching, to writing a book on my experiences, leadership and now Crucible Leadership, I had no idea that was going to end up there.
Warwick F:
How could I possibly know? But just be willing to take that next step. It seemed logical at the time and don’t be too proud. If you feel like this is what you need to do, then do it. That’s a really small baby step to go to a temp agency and say, do you have anything for me? That’s not a big vision. It wasn’t really for me financial survival, it was more emotional survival. I have to do something to feel like I can contribute in some positive way using my skills and I’ve got to be able to get out of bed and do something constructive. That was a baby step. Just take a baby step. It doesn’t have to be saving Britain or a big newspaper from calamity. It can be just, what’s one thing I can do to help me and my family today?
Gary S:
That is an excellent place for us to drop the landing gear and begin to land the plane. I want to leave folks with one more quote I’ve found, which this one surprised me. This is from Albert Einstein. Albert Einstein said this, it’s not that I’m so smart, it’s just that I stay with problems longer. Your story makes me think of that Warwick, it took you a little while to find your vision to find your footing and move beyond that crucible experience but now you are living a thriving life of significance. You stayed with your problems longer. You worked at those very things that you’ve encouraged listeners to do. I promised that I was going to end us with persistence tips from top business magazines. Some takeaway for you, listener, as you’ve heard this discussion about perseverance, what are some practical steps you could take?
Gary S:
We’ve already touched on one to remember your why, what’s your vision? It doesn’t have to be big, it just has to be focused on helping others. That’s really what significance is found in helping others. If you’re stuck in a place and you feel like you can’t go on and you need to muster perseverance, remember your why Success Magazine suggests that one. Another one, and Warwick, you’ve exhibited this from the moment I met you. Forbes included this in their list of tips for having persistence in the wake of trials. Have a sense of humor. How important is a sense of humor when you’re talking about perseverance?
Warwick F:
It is. You’ve got to be willing to, I take life pretty seriously, but you got to be willing to laugh at yourself and your own foibles and it’s funny I do take life pretty seriously I have to confess, but you’ve got to be able to have a sense of humor in the process and really a sense of hope. Absolutely. I’m pondering this as Albert Einstein talked about, his work ethic, there’s a lot of things in life we can’t control, but we can choose to get out of bed we can choose to keep at it, to not give up, to keep finding a way. I like to think I’m as fearful as the next person. Maybe some people don’t have fear.
Warwick F:
Well, I’m a pretty fearful person. I have a vivid imagination about what can happen and what can go wrong. I’m a strategic planner. I get that, but it’s like, okay, I will not be conquered by fear. I will remember the why remember for the sake of what I’m doing it and have hope. That’s really the key and another one when we’re thinking about perseverance and significance is be open to things, opportunities that come our way. Be open to subtle shifts. One example that people know from the past, in about 12 years ago now, in 2008 the pastor of my church wanted me to give a message of what I’ve been through and somehow related to David who is a righteous person, falsely persecuted while that wasn’t me, I thought, okay, fine, I can give my story somehow even though I’m not a natural public speaker.
Warwick F:
Somehow that story provided hope as I was able to share what I went through and maybe some things that helped me get through it, that was okay. While I’m not necessarily a natural speaker, somehow my story connected. That’s what led to me working on a book on my experiences and ultimately to Crucible Leadership. When things happen in your life, pay attention and say, okay listen, this went well, why did it go well? What does that mean? Maybe I need to make a subtle shift in direction. Keep moving forward and be open to the subtle shifts that will maybe ultimately take you to your vision and to that life of significance. You may not see exactly where it’s all headed, but you sense, I think this is the good next step I’m sensing this is positive. Embrace hope, reject fear and listen for the subtle shifts that will take you to a life of significance.
Gary S:
Believe it or not, you did it again of the three things I was going to talk about, you mentioned the first one before I talked about it, I did get in the sense of humor idea from forest, but what you just said summarizes perfectly what Inc Magazine said about perseverance and that is to recall your past persistence. To recall the incidents in your past where perseverance has worked out. Where you’ve put one foot in front of the other and you just mentioned it Warwick, aviation services company and that led to you know, the speech to the church which led to the book which led to the Crucible Leadership. Those things become building blocks of perseverance that allow you to continue to pursue your vision toward a life of significance.
Warwick F:
One baby step of success gives you a bit of motivation to go the next step and it doesn’t have to be a big win. Just a little baby win or a little step, little positive step, okay, let’s keep going. That’s moving forward, reject fear, embrace hope and it’s for the sake of what? What’s the why? What’s the vision? What’s the life significance? Those are all keys to having perseverance.
Gary S:
That sound you heard listener was the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign. Warwick is going to get the last word because that was a great place to land the plane. We want to thank you Warwick and I want to thank you for joining us on Beyond the Crucible and if you found this discussion insightful and helpful as you pursue your own life of significance, we have a favor to ask that will help us help more people like you who are seeking a way to move beyond their crucible experiences and to find the perseverance to do so. Here it is. Please subscribe to Beyond the Crucible on the app you’re listening to it on right now. If you do so, it will allow you to make sure you do not miss an episode and it will make it easier for others to find us, listen to us and share the podcast with their friends and coworkers.
Gary S:
If you’ve heard something on this podcast that you’d like to learn more about, we encourage you to visit us on the web at crucibleleadership.com. One of the things that you can do there is read Warwick’s blog, sign up for emails to receive Warwick’s regular blogs where he writes about the very subjects we talked about here today. You can also take a free short assessment that will help you discover where you are on the path, on the continuum to your life of significance. What is the areas that you can work on in your life as you’re moving from crucible to significance? Where are you at in that journey, and what are some resources that we can offer to help you along the way? Until next time, please remember that yes, crucible experiences are painful and difficult, but they’re not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning of a new story, a new chapter in your story that can be the most exciting and joyous one of your life because it’s a path and a chapter that leads to a life of significance.
Craig Perra admits he’s the last person you’d expect to be a life coach. He was a corporate lawyer on the C-Suite track when his sexual and drug addictions left him at rock bottom in his career and his marriage, bringing him so low he attempted suicide. Then a mentor who had walked a similar path helped him overcome his demons through structured behavioral change that allowed him to understand the underlying causes of his destructive ways, create new, healthy habits … and save his relationship with his wife. Perra talks with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax about how life’s most painful moments can actually be gifts if they are harnessed to help us craft an intentional vision for moving forward with a purpose rooted in serving others. He’s helped clients in 27 countries reclaim hope and joy in their lives with his Mindful Habit system, which offers behavioral change insights anyone can apply to recover from crucibles of all stripes.
For more information on Craig Perra and the Mindful Habit System, visit www.mindfulhabit.com
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everyone to Beyond the Crucible, the podcast where we discuss crucible experiences, crucible moments, those things that are painful setbacks, can be tragedies, can be traumas, can be failures. And we talk about them for the reasons of not dwelling on them, not wallowing in them. But what we hope to have out of our conversations is to provide hope to the listener, provide insights to the listener on how you can come back from your own crucible moments, move beyond your crucibles, and then also action steps, what are some things you can do out of this conversation that you can then take with you to live your own life of significance. And with me, as always, is the founder of Crucible Leadership and the host of this broadcast, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we got a good conversation today.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Good to be here and great to have Craig with us.
Gary S:
And I’m not sure if I introduced myself. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show, as well as the communications director for Crucible Leadership. That’s only so you know, listener, when Warwick or somebody says Gary, who he’s talking to. That’s me.
Gary S:
But more importantly is Craig who Warwick did indicate there. And I’m going to introduce Craig. And one of the things, listener, that we do that’s very exciting and interesting for us is we ask every guest we have on to provide us a biography. Craig did that. And throughout the conversation, please don’t think when I finish the last sentence of what Craig provided as his bio, that that’s the end of Craig story. And you’ll hear through the conversation with Warwick that it’s not. But I think what you’ll glean from this is kind of the character of Craig and where his heart lies in terms of his life of significance.
Gary S:
So, this is Craig Perra’s biography as he gave us. Adopted as an infant into a loving Catholic family. Mom and Dad tried their best. Mother was physically and verbally abusive. Dad worked his butt off from poverty to master’s degrees to being a famous regional sports coach. This instilled in me a drive for success. Never feeling good enough was a powerful motivation. I met my current wife and soulmate, Michelle, in college at UConn. What followed, lawyer, executive, fired two times. Liar, cheat, drug user, suicide attempt. That’s the snapshot of Craig’s life that will begin this discussion between the three of us. Warwick, take it away.
Warwick F:
Well, Craig, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it. You have a powerful story and love what you’re doing with mindfulness, which we’ll get to in a bit. But share a bit about your story and as that led in to your crucible experiences. Yeah, tell us a bit about Craig Perra.
Craig P:
Sure. Craig is born in failure. When I got asked to be on this podcast, Warwick and Gary, I was so excited because I’ve literally built a career, a life around colossal failures. And they were big. The last one was on the heels of a failure. I was back in Massachusetts where I used to live with my family about 12 years ago. I was assistant general counsel for $3 billion company. And anyone who’s done the corporate thing knows those are nice jobs. Lawyers really, really like them. They have their own pressures, but not the pressures of private practice. Had an amazing boss, and it was a great company. But I got fired. I got fired not because they caught me doing anything wrong.
Craig P:
I got fired because I wasn’t performing, plus I lied to my boss about something trivial. “Craig is that a coffee mug?” “No boss, that’s not the coffee mug.” “Are you sure that’s not a coffee mug? I’m looking at it. It looks like one, Craig.” He gave me 30 opportunities to answer a small trivial question and I’m literally, it wasn’t about the mug obviously, it was about did I do something. “No, I didn’t do that.” “Are you sure, I’m positive you did. Three people told me you did.” No, but I had gotten stuck in the lie. I just didn’t have the courage to say, yeah, I goofed. I made a mistake. I shouldn’t have done that. That little small, trivial insignificant thing that would have been a normal learning opportunity for normal people.
Craig P:
I got fired from that job, become the comeback kid, I get a better job. I now am in charge of Esurance’s compliance department. I’m taking on a role and responsibility that I hadn’t before, national responsibility, leading a bigger team for the first time. And that was like literally jumping off a cliff. It was at that low point, I mean, I was so low, I tried to kill myself. 10 months after getting fired from the first job, I got fired from my second job. I was out of my mind. I was using drugs. There was a scene in one of the Christmas movies where Chevy Chase is intoxicated and he’s shoving the salmon in his Santa coat and he’s stumbling around drunk. I wasn’t that bad, but there was one time where I was clearly under the influence at work.
Craig P:
I had a long successful career, I didn’t get to that job where I would have, you know, if I continued to be successful, I would have been running the compliance department, chief compliance officer for a billion dollar a year company. And I hated my life, I hated the job. I did not get along with my boss. I didn’t see people around me that I wanted as mentors. I saw a lot of unhappy people and that realization that here I am in California, I’m stuck, there’s no way out. I stuck my face in a pile of bath salts, that’s that synthetic chemical you might have read about 15 years ago where people were losing their minds, now illegal, thank goodness. Worse than PCP and meth put together. I thought that would be a good idea. And so I got addicted to that chemical.
Craig P:
I did not kill myself, obviously, it was an unsuccessful attempt. More of a cry for help. But what that did is that forced me into getting help. And that’s when things turned around in a pretty significant way. So, I’ll stop there to see if you have any questions and then I could keep going regarding the comeback. But I wanted you to see this, I get fired and I’m screwed, what am I going to do. I’m a lawyer, I don’t have a license to practice in California. I’m out in California, I’m stuck. I tried to find another job, there wasn’t another employer that needed my skill set for 80 miles. I would have had to move again. I felt so trapped, I felt so trapped. I was so unhappy in so many aspects of my life.
Craig P:
I remember sitting in the car and pouring all the drugs out and just said, you know what, if this does it, fine. Clearly a cowardly move and one I’m glad didn’t work. But that was the low point.
Warwick F:
One of the things you’ve said, which really amazes me is on your website, you are so open about all the challenges that you’ve been through. It sort of blew my mind reading it, to be honest. It’s like, wow, you lay it all out there. One of the things you talk about as well as in just videos you’ve done is your relationship with your wife, I think somewhere around that time was in a pretty bad place. So talk a bit about because it’s getting fired and drug addiction, all is one thing, which is just horrendous. But then on top of all that, your relationship with your wife and just for a variety reasons, that was in a bit of a challenging space. Talk about that on top of everything else. It just felt like you were just hit with a tsunami of just different challenges.
Craig P:
And so, part of my coping strategy has always been as a man, doing what “guys do.” Having affairs, lying, cheating. I had rationalized clearly under the sign under the light of day deviant behavior, but I had rationalized that for so, so, so long. At the core was my heart. It wasn’t anything my wife did. It wasn’t anything that she could have done differently. You can’t give what you don’t have. And I hated myself and I wasn’t able to open myself up to connect with her as a husband should. I blamed her, and this is so common in my work. There’s so much resentment and projection onto the wife. The wife becomes mother, my wife had become my mother. She wasn’t trying to be my mother, she was trying to keep the ship rolling and dumping out the water. We have two beautiful, incredible children.
Craig P:
And she’s my best friend. We met in college, I’ll never forget. We met by the subway truck, the sandwich truck, the little portable truck where you get your Subway sandwiches. I joked and I saw her reflection off the BMT sandwich and she had this black leather jacket on. We were listening to the same music. And I literally said to myself, I’m going to marry this woman someday. And I was in no position at that time to get married, but I knew there was something special about her and we became best friends before we started dating. She is my soulmate, she is my best friend. I crapped all over that relationship. And it was so bad, her intention. Now, she did look down at me. She looked down at me, and she extended her hand, said, “Husband, you’re the father of my children, I want to help you. I don’t think we’re going to make it. I don’t think we’re going to make it but I want to help you.”
Craig P:
And it was that that act of kindness, that just showing of love moves me in a deep way. And it has been my inspiration since then is helping other men heal from the lies and betrayals and the secrets they’ve kept from their wives. We just celebrated our 21st wedding anniversary. We’ve never been happier. We do calls together for the wives that are in my program. And she said something two weeks ago that I’ll never forget. She said that she wouldn’t go back and change a thing. She would not change a thing. And the reason why she said she wouldn’t change a thing because while she didn’t like the pain, didn’t like the suffering, didn’t like the feelings of insecurity and not being good enough for her husband, it made her who she was.
Craig P:
And it’s because of those experiences that she was forced to grow in ways that she couldn’t imagine. And clearly, I was forced to grow in ways that I didn’t realize. But it also forced us to grow together because when I kind of woke up from that low point, like wait a minute, there’s got to be other options. There’s not one job. I had such blinders on. But yeah, we just celebrated 21 years and we’ve never been happier. I put that poor woman through hell.
Gary S:
I’m going to jump in here because you use the phrase low point a few times, Craig, both in relation to your experience professionally, personally, and in your marriage and how your wife felt. And one of the things that really intrigued me about some of the information that you sent to us, and it’s very interesting in light of what crucible leadership talks about and what Warwick has gone through himself and what he offers people through Crucible Leadership. But you said this, which really struck me, “Your lowest point is an incredible gift.” Warwick talks about it as I said at the top of the show, your crucible experiences can be not the end of your story, but the beginning of a new chapter in your story if you learn the lessons from them.
Gary S:
So, it’s extremely interesting, you hear Warwick tell his story, listeners have heard him tell his story. Very different practically, very different in detail from your story, Craig. Yet, the emotions and the perspective that comes out of that, from that low moment, can come healing, hope, the best moments of your life. It’s extraordinary how, and listeners, I want you to hear this too, your stories probably differ from Warwick’s and Craig’s both, but those emotions that you feel by digging in, by recognizing that your lowest point is an incredible gift, by recognizing that your crucible experience, if you learn from it and apply those lessons can lead you toward a life of significance is a truism.
Gary S:
How do you guys react to that knowing that your stories are so different, and yet the emotions behind them in the way that you crawled back from them, you clawed your way back from them are very similar?
Warwick F:
That is such a profound point that our lowest moments can be a gift. It’s not a, push pause for one second because I want to make sure that listeners understand what was the motivations that led you to that low point because by understanding the motivations, it then helps the listeners understand how you bounce back from that. What were the things, because you got this stuff on top of the surface, which was getting fired from a great job, drug addiction, cheating on your wife. Was a variety of different challenges. But typically, there’s something beneath that that causes the behavior. If we don’t understand the behavior, we can’t help stop that, turn the ship. So what was the underlying thoughts or motivations that led you to just that incredible low point that you went through?
Craig P:
Great question, Warwick. It was, I felt trapped. I felt trapped. I saw my life unfold. Now I’m peeking into the C suite, I’m now in the room. I’m now in the room, the C level executives. I’m not there yet, but if things go as planned, I am the Chief Compliance Officer for this billion dollar company. So much excitement, so much opportunity. I didn’t want that. I never wanted that. I remember back in college I want, mom, dad, I want to be a teacher. I want to be a teacher, I want to teach people. My dad was a teacher, became a very successful teacher administrator, big soccer complex named after my father. And no, you’re better than that, be a lawyer, be a lawyer. And I had the natural skill set to be a lawyer, and I loved it.
Craig P:
But I never felt like I was in charge of my destiny. I remember when we were putting together the specs of our new house together that my wife and I built in Massachusetts, I’ll never forget how resentful I was about the granite countertops. It’s like, this is what I’m working for? This is what I’m doing in my life? I was so unhappy. I was doing what I thought I was supposed to do. I was following that trajectory and I was so, so unhappy. I wasn’t fulfilled. I felt trapped, Warwick, that’s what it was.
Warwick F:
And it’s interesting, getting back to Gary’s question, that I can relate to. So it almost feels like you were living somebody else’s dream. Every parent likes to think that their kids will do better than they did. But better often for some people means more status, more money, more prestige. Better doesn’t have to be defined that way, but it sounds like for you, it’s like, hey, I was a teacher, you need to do better than that from his perspective. I think teacher is a wonderful profession but I get your dad’s perspective. Almost felt like you were being forced into a role you didn’t want to and you were medicating the pain in a variety of different ways, including marital cheating and drugs and what have you. Is that like a fair comment? It was almost like you were being forced into a role you didn’t want to be and you were medicating the frustration.
Craig P:
Yes, that’s exactly right. There were these different parts of me. There was the part of me that went to work, that enjoyed analyzing compliance related issues because it’s a fascinating field, it’s where the law and the business intersect, and I was very good at it. I had an executive business background, I had a legal background. It was perfect. It was perfect. That’s exactly what someone with my skill set should do. But I was miserable. I did not feel fulfilled. I didn’t like the job. Not the company, the company was a great company. And thousands of people have very successful careers there. But I felt I wasn’t me. And instead of finding me, I instead escaped from being me. And at various points in my life, I escaped from being me with drugs and prostitutes.
Craig P:
And those two things collided in a big ugly way 10 years ago, because now, not only was I trapped in a career, now I’m trapped in this job. I can’t go anyplace else because I looked online, there’s no other company that needed someone with my expertise, they were 80 miles away. I knew that I’d have to lose a big chunk of income and I lacked the courage to say, I am unhappy. I lacked the courage to say I am unhappy. That is the truth for so many of my clients, and I see it all the time. They lack the courage and the intestinal fortitude to say, hey, I’m on the wrong track, I need to get back to my center to do something that’s going to lift me up.
Craig P:
And for me, it took a rock bottom for that to happen. So that’s back to where Gary was talking about this being a gift. The thought of me being a life coach with my background is preposterous, it’s ridiculous. People laugh. People laughed when they heard it back then. Here we are eight years later with clients in 27 countries, a successful program, world famous client base. It took that low point to help me forge the path that was going to fulfill me and enrich me and inspire me.
Warwick F:
And I want to hear in a brief second about that inspiration. But as you share your story, it’s very different than mine, but yet there are similarities that a lot of our listeners would know growing up in a 150 year old, large family media business in Australia. The expectations are very clear, you will go into that, you will prepare yourself, and you will make the company even greater than it was before. You will do better than previous generations and you have no other options because why wouldn’t you want to be in a family media business that does great service to the community, don’t you care about your country, about your community. How could you not want to do that? So hence, Oxford, Wall Street, Harvard Business School, I wasn’t really that interested in business, to be honest. Still I’m not. I’m more of a reflective advisor.
Warwick F:
But I never thought to rebel because I loved my parents and how could I let my parents down. Not quite the nation, but how can I let people down. So, yeah, I was miserable and totally out of my depth. And it was, yeah, grim. So everybody deals with that in different ways. But that sounds eerily similar. So I guess, I mean, obviously, I have my own ways I try to claw myself back, but how did you claw your way back? You mentioned that failure can be a gift. How did you change your perspective to see it as a gift, to get your career back on track, your marriage back on track? How did you, because a lot of people listening to you are saying, that’s irrecoverable. You can’t recover from all those things. It’s kind of game over. How did you bounce back?
Craig P:
I found a mentor who had been through my struggles. I had done a lot of counseling, I had done a lot of therapy in my life. And that was valuable, that was valuable. But none of those people had walked in my shoes. And in fact, when push comes to shove, they probably had no idea beyond what they read about in their books what I was going through. I found somebody who, his name was George Collins. He is a therapist in Walnut Creek, California. He specializes in working with men struggling with compulsive sexual behavior. And that’s what mine was, and the drugs of course. He did it, he was happy. So then maybe I can be too.
Craig P:
And so, having a mentor, having a therapist, a counselor is critical. And as someone who provides those services, I acknowledge to clients how self-serving that statement is. And it is what it is, you know, and it is what it is. So that was very important to me.
Warwick F:
Okay. So being a mentor …
Craig P:
Having a mentor.
Warwick F:
That was a key. You mentioned there’s a sense of therapy almost in helping other people. I’ve certainly found that as I talk about failure and getting the odd letter from folks as I did the other day from a woman classmate at Harvard Business School. Sharing about some of her business challenges and feeling like, hey, there’s somebody else that’s been there, she felt like she wasn’t alone. It’s a different area. So, a mentor is helpful. So what was some of the other things that helped you get your life back on track? Your marriage, for instance? That’s a miracle in of itself. There are many marriages that wouldn’t survive.
Craig P:
And in fact, my wife was done. She was pretty clear on her intentions. She had been down this road before with me. Clearly, I wasn’t somebody who could be faithful. She said that she was going to stick around to help me get back on my feet because I was the sole provider. I was the guy who made the money to feed the family. And so, she was going to support me till I got back on my feet. And then she’d separate, then she’d end the marriage.
Craig P:
A lot of things happened at that low point, a lot of things happened to me at that low point. So I found a mentor. I also started to find purpose, purpose, like, wait, there’s something very liberating about being at that low point. In other words, there’s only up. Down was death. And I decided that I wasn’t going to do that, I’m a father, what are you thinking, man, snap out of it. There’s got to be another way besides that. I said to myself that as long as I am in the house, as long as I am in her presence, I’m going to do everything humanly possible to show her that I can be a kind, caring, compassionate, loving husband and save the relationship. And that’s what I did. And it wasn’t easy.
Craig P:
Clearly, I have intimacy issues, I have issues around connecting. I was sexually abused as a child, so sexual anorexia, which means it just doesn’t flow naturally when there’s love involved. Stranger, boom bada bing, easy peasy. But when there’s love and connection, that was a challenge for me. And we saw, we met each one of those challenges together and had an incredible time in the process. And there were no resources out there for the partners of someone like me.
Craig P:
And the only resources that were out there was either she’s codependent or she’s a co-addict. It was all framed around 12 steps, which is a treatment modality 85 years old invented for alcohol that’s now applied to other things. That didn’t resonate with me. It didn’t resonate with her. So she started blogging and just sharing her experience, sharing her story. Well, that took off. Then came the Anderson Cooper Show. Then came the Katie Couric show and then came Lifetime. Now I’m kind of cramming a whole bunch of things together. But together, we just had so much joy helping people. And that’s how it all started, that’s how it all started.
Warwick F:
One of the things I think you’ve said, and correct me if I’m wrong, is you’re at a low point, marriage, business, all sorts of things going on. But you made a decision of the will, I’m not going to abandon my kids. Suicide is not an option. I am going to resurrect this marriage. I’m going to do whatever it takes to deal with these very difficult issues. Maybe 12 step programs are great programs, maybe didn’t quite fit your situation. There’s no one size fits all. But you and your wife were determined. And she was obviously incredibly courageous too that you just felt like we were going to make a decision of the will to get through this, to get your career, life, marriage on track. Does that feel right that you made a decision?
Craig P:
Yes.
Warwick F:
And many people would say, that’s a silly decision because there’s no hope, but even where you didn’t feel like much hope, you made a decision of the will. Was that a key turning point for you?
Craig P:
Key turning point, key turning point. And as ridiculous as it sounded, in the moment, you’ve got to imagine the dinner tape. So my wife and I just had been anonymously helping people. Responding to comments on a blog, just little, very basic stuff. But it was growing, and there was momentum. And I saw a void that I could fill. I used to, one of the things I got trained in was how to build curriculum. I saw that the treatment modality that most people were using didn’t address habits, didn’t incorporate mindfulness, didn’t really have a sense of purpose. Didn’t specifically create healthy in that area. And I said, you know what, I can build a course, I can build a better program that’s going to move the right guy further faster. That is what drove me.
Craig P:
But there was a time, I’ll never forget this time, we’re sitting there at dinner with her parents, my wife’s parents. They know everything, they know rock bottom, they know that I had done it again, I’d gotten fired again. And I remember looking over at my father-in-law to tell him that his daughter and I decided to be life coaches. And you could see the look on his face, like what are you thinking? He had 50 questions. Now we had answers for all those 50 questions. He’s a business-minded man so we knew, we were like, we’re going to meet with an investor. We were prepared for those questions. But it was in making the decision together and then realizing that we had something special, there was a hole that we could fill, and that hole was massive. And that really inspired us to keep pushing and keep chugging along to bring us where we are today, which is, we’re just getting warmed up today.
Warwick F:
I want to talk about mindfulness but I just want to recap for the listeners a couple key takeaways that I’m hearing so far. One is you made a decision of the will that these challenges, business and marital, were not going to define you. And the second was just this sense of purpose. I’m sensing you saying the healing power of purpose, which I have a feeling might be part of mindfulness. Talk about the healing power of purpose and how that plays into the whole mindfulness program, which sounds amazing. So talk about purpose and mindfulness.
Craig P:
The whole thing is mindfulness. Some of it is mindfulness in disguise. When I talk about habits, other parts of my program, I’m explicit when I’m talking about traditional mindfulness. But one of the things that I’ve learned about human beings is that we are needs-seeking organisms. Everything we do, from what we say to what we do is a conditioned response to get needs met. If, if, if, if, you can align that need with what you’re great at and what you love to do, well, life is going to be a heck of a lot easier for you because as we all know, life is hard enough as it is to be doing something that you hate, where you don’t feel fulfilled, where you’re never feeling good enough.
Craig P:
And there’s something very mindful, which means, like, wait, what is it that I want to do that’s going to contribute value to the world, and how am I going to use that to inspire other people? Really, I think, as you said, it’s a mindful principle because it’s being mindful about what drives you, what feeds you, what inspires you. So that journey from rock bottom forced me to answer all those questions because I was not going to make that mistake again.
Craig P:
And so, that’s where the mindfulness comes in. It’s mindful around who I am, what do I love to do, how am I going to serve, and what feeds me, the Native American story of feeding the right wolf is a great inspiration to me. And it’s an old story, but these old tales have an awful lot of science wrapped up in them and understanding, how you’re going to feed that right wolf inside you and me helping clients get there, and of course, me finding my own sense of purpose. It’s like mindfulness at its core in a sense of how are you going to feed that part of you that needs significance, that needs loving connection, that needs community? So yeah, I hope I answered your question.
Warwick F:
Yeah, yeah. No, you did. I’d love to hear, personally as I’m sure the listeners would, what meeting those needs meant for you. But in addition to purpose, we all have needs, but trying to meet those needs in a constructive way that fits in with your innate gifting, passions and talents to accomplish, and we use this term a lot, a life of significance, a life of helping others, it feels like that was the key to mindfulness for you is meeting those needs in a positive way that’s in line with what you love to do in a constructive way. That feels like that was key. So what does it look like for you? You’re wired a very specific way, as we all are. How did you meet those needs in a constructive way in a way that helped you live a life of significance?
Craig P:
So it was Martin Luther King Jr.’s Speech called The Drum Major Instinct had a massive impact on me. Of all the things that I listened to, there was something about him recognizing that we all have this drum major in us. And the drum major is the guy at the front of the parade with the shiny outfit waving the baton. To some degree, maybe we don’t want to be him, but we want that attention and we want that significance. And there was something about that that I had gone the eastern way, which is to not desire and I didn’t want anything and I took jobs that wasn’t very fulfilling because I thought I was being mindful, but I wasn’t. I was still unhappy, I was still seeking. And it was literally that alignment of me realizing that if I have this need to be significant, to get positive attention, then I’m going to do it in the service of others.
Craig P:
And it was like in that moment, where like, I have the skill set, I have the aptitude, I have the writing skills, I’ve got the personality. I just saw that all these things were in perfect alignment and that’s how I learned that I had to feed the right wolf, and that’s when things changed for me in a dramatic way. I recognized that I had these needs, it didn’t make me a weak person because I want to be important and want to be significant. But if I am going to be an important significant, do it in the service of others and be the biggest star in the world. But if you’re helping other people, rock on.
Warwick F:
So when you said the right wolf, to summarize it in like a sentence or two, what does the right wolf look like for Craig Perra? When Craig Perra is being who Craig Perra needs to be kind of in service of others, what does it look like?
Craig P:
He is driving results where other people haven’t. My niche, Warwick and Gary, I’m in the sex and porn addiction. field. And so, my clients don’t share on Facebook that they work with me. If they did, I’d be on Oprah, I’d be on Ellen because I have worked with titans of industry, professional athletes, professional, Hollywood icons. There’s a list that goes on and on. Hey, can one of your guys just put on Facebook how life-changing this program was. But when my wolf is being fed, I’m taking what I’ve learned, and I’m helping other people change their lives and driving results quicker than they were able to get someplace else, better and bigger than they were able to get someplace else because most of my clients come to me on the heels of inpatient stays, years and years and years of therapy. So that’s when I’m on fire when I’m driving those results, and that’s what feeds me.
Gary S:
As we say on Beyond the Crucible, it’s not time to land the plane yet, but the captain has turned on the fasten seat belt sign. And one thing that we want to make sure that we get to is for listeners who are hearing what you’re saying, Craig, and who believe that you may be able to help them in some way, how can folks engage with the Mindful Habit and with you?
Craig P:
Sure. Absolutely. Thank you, Gary. First is I have a podcast available on all major platforms called Sex, Afflictions and Porn Addiction. So, a whole bunch of great episodes there where I speak my heart and my truth, and some great interviews as well. My website is www.themindfulhabit.com. There’s some free training there, there’s ways to contact me, there’s a phone number. I’ve got a receptionist who’s ready for your call. So yeah, go to the website and reach out if you are struggling and you need help.
Warwick F:
One question I have is obviously, you mentioned, you have a particular focus on people with sexual addictions, that kind of thing. But I have a feeling this mindfulness concept of living a life on purpose, feeding the right wolf, kind of being who you were designed to be helping others, that that could help people with other addictions, even other challenges. Maybe they got fired and they feel worthless. They’re in the wrong slot or round peg in a square hole. So I know you have a particular focus, but do you feel like that your whole mindfulness concept can help a broader group of people too?
Craig P:
Yes. And so what I’ve done is I’ve taken certain aspects of mindfulness and made them very practical, being mindful of your triggers, of your thoughts. And quite frankly, for every addiction, you know what I think the real addiction is, the addiction is to our thoughts, those repeating thoughts over and over and over again. So, I’ve got a five year plan. I talked about that, all these people say how great I am. Warwick, you’re absolutely right.
Craig P:
My next product is a general addiction addicted to your thoughts product. We’re moving from my narrow, safe, secure place of sex and porn addiction into mainstream, and that’s happening in 2020. We’re super, super excited about that. And that’s I think going to open up just people to say, oh yeah, check this guy out. Now you can’t do that because if you refer someone to me, a friend, the friend is going to say, wait a minute, how do you know about him even if the principle is deep and profound. So yeah, we’ve got a five year plan and we’re taking over and it’s going to be really exciting to see where this goes.
Gary S:
And it could lead to more people sharing on social media that they’re working with because you’ll be expanded and people will know exactly what they’re doing.
Craig P:
Exactly, exactly. That’s right. I mean, if I, I can’t, but if I did share my client list or if they shared that they worked with me, my life would be so dramatically different. Guys, it really is crazy, crazy, crazy. You’d be like, oh my god, wow. And what I’ve done is I created a system, it’s called the Mindful Habit System, and it goes back to my corporate days, which is, when I’ve got to teach a compliance item, I need a desired outcome, and I need learning objectives that are going to support that desired outcome. Those were things that were missing in my therapy. And those are things that my executive clients love that give them a framework, give them a structure, and they’re off to the races. And so, I built this system that’s centered around mindfulness and habits. I see them as these two opposites almost. And teaching people to be mindful of their habits has led to significant life change. So, we really got some fun things in store for sure.
Warwick F:
If we have to sum this all up, somebody might be listening right now, they’re at a low point, could be sexual porn addiction, addictions in general, or it could be just depressed life has just not turned out the way they want to, maybe they’re even thinking of suicide. Why should somebody at their lowest point see that as a gift, and as importantly, why should they have hope? Why should there be hope at your lowest point?
Craig P:
Think of the scene in the movie, I’m 49 so I remember the Rocky movie, Rocky is the boxer, the American boxer. And anybody who’s seen that movie remembers that scene in the movie, where he’s down, he’s down, he’s down, he’s been beaten again, he hasn’t blocked the punches, he’s getting older. And then there’s this step, this conscious choice to get up, and there’s that little shred of hope that at least that there’s something that’s better than this. And so I tell people, you are going to look back on this low point with a sense of pride, with a sense of learning and reverence, where this low point where you’re so out of alignment with who you think you are and who you want to be, that’s your gift. This is your body telling you that things are off and this is your inspiration and your motivation to get them back on. And that journey is incredible.
Gary S:
To continue the Rocky metaphor, I think I just heard the bell ringing. I think our bout, our round is done. The plane’s going to land. Let me summarize for you, listeners, what we’ve learned here today. And the first thing is the last point that Craig just made that Warwick asked Craig about and that is, your lowest point can be a gift. Warwick talks about it a lot, Crucible Leadership talks about it a lot. From your Crucible Experiences can be birthed a change in trajectory of your life that will lead you to a better place, a new chapter. It can feel really bad when you’re in it, it can feel devastating when you’re in it. But if you learn the lessons of it, if you’re mindful of it, as Craig talks about, you can write a new chapter to a new story that leads to significance and purpose. That’s really takeaway number one.
Gary S:
I think the second takeaway from what we heard Craig talk about today, and it’s so encouraging to me in working with Crucible Leadership to see when Crucible Leadership concepts are mirrored in another person’s concepts whose story couldn’t be more different from Warwick’s, but the bounce back and the insights are the same. And that’s this, Craig said, it takes courage to say I’m on the wrong track for my life. It takes courage. And so, we encourage you listener, if you’re in that place where you feel like you’re on the wrong track, if you feel like your purpose is not being fulfilled, you can muster that courage and you can look to something different that more aligns with what Warwick talks about, your vision and values, and what Craig has talked about about habits and mindfulness.
Gary S:
And then the last truly practical step that you can take, listener, is this. Craig mentioned it, it turned his life around. Warwick’s talked about it too. Find yourself a mentor, and not just any mentor, but look for someone, as Craig put it, someone who has walked in your shoes. When that moment happened for him, after failed attempts in therapy, failed attempts in bouncing back from these addictions that plagued him, that changed everything. He found a mentor who had walked in his shoes, and that mentor led him to a place that allowed him to get to where he is now. Both Warwick and Craig are examples of people who have leveraged the power of a mentor who understands to turn their life around and to live a life of significance.
Gary S:
So, thank you listeners for spending time with us, and we have a couple of quick favors to ask of you. One, if you liked what you heard here today with Craig Perra and Warwick talking about their crucibles and about how Craig came out of his through developing some mindfulness and some habits that changed the way he thought and acted, if you enjoyed this conversation, if you’ve enjoyed previous conversations, right now, you’re listening to this podcast on an app. There’s a subscription button somewhere on that app, we would ask you, please, to subscribe to the app. Helps you because you’ll never miss an episode, helps us because it helps us get this message out, get our guests out to more and more people.
Gary S:
And then the last thing that we would ask you to do because we think it can help you along the journey that you’re on. Warwick’s been on a journey, Craig’s just described his journey. We have at crucibleleadership.com an assessment you can take. It’s like a three minute assessment, very short. But what you’ll get out of that is a read back, some feedback that will tell you where you are on your journey from your Crucible Experience to establishing that life of significance. Where are you at and where do you need to focus your efforts to make sure that you’re successful in getting yourself towards significance, as Craig has been, and as Warwick has been, and as so many of you have told us already, you’re on that road and you’re pursuing your passions, you’re pursuing your purpose, and you’re off on a run to your life of significance.
Gary S:
So, until we get together next time, thank you for listening. And remember, your crucible experience is painful, it can be devastating. It can feel like it’s the end of the world. You can feel like there is no hope. But as Craig pointed out here today, that low point is a gift. And if you lean into that gift, you learn the lessons of that gift, you will begin to write a chapter in your life that is far from the end of your story, but is a new story that will lead to purpose and significance.
A crucible is a cauldron where metals are thrown together and heated to very high temperatures. The metals combine to form an alloy, something that is different than it was before. A crucible experience is one that Typically, when we face an obstacle, especially a major obstacle, we tend to think, at least in the moment, this is the end. Especially if it is a serious health diagnosis, the loss of a loved one, or losing your job or the company you started. That is normal. Our first reaction is almost never, “Oh joy! An obstacle! I am sure this will be a great learning experience. I can’t wait to see what unfolds.”
Significant obstacles set you back. They are often crushing. If it is an adverse health diagnosis, you might be thinking of the shortness of life, or perhaps the pain of treatment and the effect it will have on those you love. If it is getting fired, you might be angry at those who fired you and/or mad at yourself for not doing better. Major obstacles can lead to a range of emotions: anger, depression, self-doubt, fear, immobilization. Just thinking about next steps can seem impossible. You can’t get your head and emotions out of the bottom of the dark valley you are in.
So how do you get beyond obstacles? Can you reframe obstacles as opportunities, and how do you do this?
Reflect
The first step is to reflect on what happened and why. In an adverse health diagnosis for instance, often it is not your fault; it can be because of genetics or what you feel is just bad luck. Perhaps you smoked many packs of cigarettes a day or led an unhealthy lifestyle. You must come to terms with what has happened. Forgive yourself if part of the situation was your fault; or try not be angry at the world or God, depending on how you view things.
If part of it is your fault and it affects other people, perhaps there are words of contrition that need to be said; and some relational healing may be needed.
What are the lessons you may need to learn from this situation? In a business setting, getting fired, or in my case losing a business, should make you want to consider what happened and why. Did you make some mistakes? Were you in the wrong position given your gifts? That would be yes to both of those questions for me.
Glenn Williams is a great example of someone who stopped and reflected after leaving a high profile leadership position in a major nonprofit. He could have instantly leapt into another corporate-type job. After listening to some good counsel, he wisely did not. For more on Glenn’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Filmmaker and actor Robert Krantz also did some deep reflection after twin crucibles – one professional, one personal – hit him hard in the early 2000s. After the movie he sunk all his money and talent into failed due to circumstances largely beyond his control, his wife received a health diagnosis that threatened the lives of their unborn triplet sons. Krantz took a long look at what was really important in his life, and dedicated himself to his family rather than his career until his sons were old enough … and he pursued his professional calling with renewed passion. For more on Robert’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Reframe
Probably the biggest step forward after reflecting and forgiving yourself or others for what happened, is to reframe how this obstacle can be used as an opportunity.
Reframing an obstacle as an opportunity might seem impossible, but it is possible. People who have gone through great pain and suffering, have endured huge setbacks, typically have in common the desire, indeed the drive, to use that setback to help others.
David Charbonnet, a Navy SEAL, used the crushing setback of a parachuting accident that ended up with him being paraplegic, to head a veterans clinic designed to give veterans as much mobility as possible after enduring physical trauma like he did. He transformed a tragic thing that happened to him into an opportunity to do wonderful things for others. For more on David’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Esther Fleece Allen used her setback of being abandoned and abused to become a writer and speaker dedicated to helping others overcome tragedy and find a new sense of purpose. What had felt like lost years growing up, she saw as learning years as she matured. For more on Esther’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
When your life is dedicated to serving others, there is tremendous healing. Your life has a sense of purpose, a sense of significance. Getting your mind and emotions off your own problems and challenges and getting them focused on others and how to help them is the key. It also importantly brings purpose to your pain. You might not like what happened to you and wish it hadn’t happened, but using your pain to help others does help.
Cast a Vision
Finally, as you reflect on your desire to serve others, to use your pain for a purpose, might there be a vision here that needs to be explored? Talk to friends and family and advisers. Tell them you want to find a purpose to the pain and let them know some of the people you are trying to help. Together you might be able to take what you are already doing to help people to a whole other level; and indeed, a whole other level of giving purpose to your pain.
Jim Daly, president of the global family-help organization Focus on the Family, began life as a boy in desperate need of family help. He was abandoned by his alcoholic father, his mother died of cancer and his stepdad skipped out on the family the day of her funeral: all before Jim was 10. Jim says, “Oftentimes, our pain bears our passion” – and that’s just what it did for him as he embarked on his ministry career. For more on Jim’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Ed Kressy, at the lowest point of his life after drugs and substance abuse left him destitute and homeless, began helping people through community groups, the local police in San Francisco, and the FBI. Helping others was the key to his path back. You can hear Ed’s story in an upcoming BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Obstacles, especially devastating setbacks, can be crushing. They can feel impossible to overcome, and impossible to bounce back from. But if you reflect on what happened and why, consider how your pain can be for a purpose, and think how that can lead to a vision to serve others; you can indeed get past a crushing setback. You can see your obstacle as an opportunity to make a difference in the world by serving others.
Reflection
Why did your devastating setback happen and what can you learn from it?
How can your pain be used for a purpose, that in some way can help others?
What vision do you have that would use your pain to serve others?
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Jim Daly was abandoned by his alcoholic father at 5, lost his mother to cancer four years later and had no one to turn to but his four older siblings when their stepfather emptied the family home and left them to fend for themselves on the day they buried their Mom. Before he had turned 10, he was living with a dysfunctional foster family and thinking it was all just part of the “normal” life all kids lived. But buoyed by a hopeful spirit, he embraced the structure his teenage years brought at school and through sports — and gradually charted a course for the kind of life he once never dreamed possible. Today, fifteen years into his role as president of the international nonprofit Focus on the Family, he surprises the press by meeting with ideological opponents and continues to oversee innovative programs that in just the last year have helped 780,000 couples build stronger marriages and 950,000 moms and dads raise happier, more resilient children. Daly talks with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax about why a life of significance has nothing to do with job titles and how all that childhood pain now fuels his ministry passions and accomplishments.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Hey, everybody, welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And our podcast is focused on crucible moments, those experiences in life that can be extraordinarily difficult, very painful, can change the trajectory of our lives. But we talk about them in the context of this podcast, not to camp out on them, not to dwell on them in a negative way, not to sort of wallow in them, but to use them as jumping off points to lead a life of significance. And with me, as always, is the architect of Crucible Leadership and the host of the show, Warwick Fairfax.
Warwick F:
Hey, Gary.
Gary S:
We got a good one today and I know this because I’m about to read his bio, but I know this because one thing not in his official bio is that I called him boss for about 10 years and I still call him friend. So that’s something that’s not in the official bio, but this is how I know it’s going to be a good show. So, our guest today is Jim Daly. Jim Daly is president of Focus on the Family and host of its daily radio broadcast heard by more than 6.6 million listeners a week on more than 1000 radio stations across the US.
Gary S:
In March of 2019, Jim celebrated, hard to believe, his 30th anniversary with Focus on the Family. Jim’s personal journey from orphan to head of an international Christian organization dedicated to helping families thrive is we’ll discover a powerful story. Abandoned by his alcoholic father at age five, he lost his mother to cancer four years later, a wound deepened when his grieving stepfather emptied the family home and left Jim, the youngest of five children and his siblings to fend for themselves after their mother’s funeral. Several tough years followed, including time in foster care, before Jim became a Christian in high school and found meaning, purpose and a sense of belonging.
Gary S:
Jim was named president of Focus on the Family in 2005. Under his leadership, the organization has taken on a role nationally in encouraging and helping facilitate foster care adoptions, earning recognition from the White House and Congress for its efforts. The ministry also has reinvigorated its traditional focus on helping couples build strong marriages and raise healthy and resilient kids. I love this part, in just the last 12 months with the help of Focus on the Family, research indicates that 780,000 couples have built stronger marriages, and 950,000 moms and dads build stronger, healthier and more God-honoring families.
Gary S:
Jim has been married to his lovely wife, Jean, since 1986. They have two sons and reside in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Warwick, take it away.
Warwick F:
Wow. Well, Jim, it’s just such an honor to have you. I mean, Focus on the Family, as you know, I grew up in Australia and listened to that in Australia and Dr. Dobson, and years ago and the work that your organization does in helping families, especially in the world we live in, which is so many single parent families. It’s just tough out there. Your organization’s a beacon of light, just helping families and has done for decades. So, love to hear more about that just in a bit.
Warwick F:
With crucible leadership, we love hearing people’s stories of adversity. Clearly just with your bio, you grew up in some pretty difficult challenges. So, just talk a bit about, I know we heard in the bio, but how you grew up and just some of those pretty tough challenges. You had it about as rough as anybody growing up.
Jim D:
The great thing about being a child you don’t know any better. Fundamentally, you think everybody’s in the same boat. That’s kind of the attitude I had. I was sure that others had it worse off than I had it. And I don’t know where I found that little sliver of wisdom to figure that out. But at least I was eating and I was sleeping in a warm place. And it’s just so funny when you’re a kid, you think, okay, that’s good enough, I can handle the rest on my own. It was an amazing thing.
Jim D:
I think the other key thing that I’ve come to learn is how much resiliency is in a child’s heart. Being in a marriage and parenting organization, I think from a perspective of faith, which is where I come from, it’s a great design that God put that kind of resiliencies in children’s hearts because parents let kids down all the time for all variety of reasons. We don’t come with a perfect parenting approach. And I think, even like the love I had for my alcoholic father was deep even though he was a disappointment as a dad, but I still loved him, despite all those things. And all the promises he made but never kept.
Jim D:
So, for me, it was just part of my story, it was the short straw. It’s one of the hardest questions I get asked when I’m speaking is how did you get keep your joy as a child. Again, my faith is the only thing that explains that, that I believed that I was made for a purpose and that God was with me even in my valleys. I had a lot of them.
Warwick F:
So your father abandoned you first, it was at age five or?
Jim D:
I was the youngest of five kids. I was six years from my closest sibling, so I was the accident, the oops baby. They were all one year apart, so they ran kind of as a pack in high school, they were almost all in high school at the same time. And then I was probably starting kindergarten at that time. I was really distant from them in every way, emotionally, age, everything. And then when my mom got cancer, she died of colon cancer, they kind of kept it from me because nobody felt like a child can handle it. So, one piece of advice I have for people is if you’re going through difficulty as a parent, let your kids in on it in an age-appropriate way.
Jim D:
For me I had to go from having a normal dysfunctional family to all of a sudden learning one Saturday morning that my mom had died the night before. And it wasn’t expected, I wasn’t anticipating it, I couldn’t read the signs and put it all together. So, it was a jolt to me to learn that the person who was the most loving kind person in my life all of a sudden was gone. I didn’t even have a chance to say goodbye to her.
Warwick F:
I understand that your stepfather left pretty soon after that.
Jim D:
Well, it was crazy. Hank, I called him Hank the Tank, he was a former military drill sergeant, and he fit the stereotype. He loved my mom, and as I got older, I had better appreciation for that than I did at the moment. He didn’t like the kids. He even called us baggage at one point. We knew that we were not something that he cared for but he loved my mom enough. And I think ironically, my mom needed that kind of support as she was dying. They were only married a year and a half. But it was the day of her funeral we came back, she accepted Christ the day before she died again as a spiritual element here. It was phenomenal. Her funeral was amazing. The clouds made like a staircase leading up into the sky and my oldest brother Mike, that was the beginning of a spiritual journey for him.
Jim D:
But we got back to the house after the funeral and everything was gone, all of our furniture, and it was our furniture, not Hank’s furniture. But he had sold it. We had little boxes in the living room of our stuff, my handful of toys and my clothes were in one box and the other sibling stuff was in a box of their own. And Hank came out of the back bedroom with his luggage packed and he had two big suitcases in each fist. And he just said, “you know, I can’t take the pressure of raising your kids so I’m gone.” And we were like, well, what do we do? And we went into foster care.
Warwick F:
And how old were you at the time when your step dad left?
Jim D:
I was nine years old, nine years old.
Warwick F:
At that point, obviously, you’ve lost both parents, a step father’s just walked out. It’s probably a dumb question, but where were you at that point just emotionally and everything? Were you like, the world is over and like, if there’s a God, how can this possibly happen? What’s the deal here?
Jim D:
I think it was a bunch of emotions. I mean, the one was abandonment, but I wasn’t mad at my mom. I knew she couldn’t control a disease. I was cognizant enough to understand that. But at the same time, I felt like everybody was walking out on me. In Hank’s case, literally. And so, I think it was a lot of despair and loneliness. That’s the best way I could describe it. Yet there was a normalcy to everything else. School, friends. It’s the strangest status to be in that moment. I remember the fourth grade class at Bixby Elementary, they sent me a handmade card, a big card with everybody’s note in there. We’re sorry, Jim, we hope you have a good life.
Jim D:
And then of course, the funeral was on a Saturday, and by Monday, I was moving into foster care 160 miles away. Little town called Morongo valley with this family that my brother knew one of their sons, Paul, and ironically, their last name, we got to find God’s sense of humor in all this, but it was the Real family. They were like the most unreal family. And I always say the precursor is they did provide for us. They gave us shelter, which was nice. If we were dysfunctional, they were very dysfunctional and that was unfortunate. They had four sons all in a state of disarray.
Warwick F:
So it sounds like it didn’t really get a whole lot better with foster care. You had a roof over your head but it wasn’t like you had this ideal picture perfect family.
Jim D:
I can remember walking, it was Mr. Todd, my fourth grade, I was ending my fourth grade year. My mom died in March, and so April, May. And I remember just walking out of his class. During instruction, he’d be up there talking about conjugating verbs or something, they were in a different place, educationally, they were covering different material than I was at Bixby Elementary. And I just remember feeling like I can’t do this, I’m sad, I’m lonely. And I would literally just walk out of his class and sit on a sand hill and cry at Morongo Elementary School. A little nurse would come out, Nurse Bandy, and she’d put her arm around me and say, “You’re going to be okay, Jimmy. Things are going to be okay.”
Jim D:
And I would think to myself as a nine year old boy, she doesn’t know what I’m walking back into. I get on that bus and I go back to the Real family, and hunker down and try to hide basically emotionally, physically because I just didn’t want to engage them. They were just not healthy people.
Jim D:
And so, I ended up living there for a year and then my bio dad found me. My biological father, my alcoholic father, he learned that my mom had died, he didn’t know what happened to us. He had been trying to track us down. It kind of took him that year to find us through social services. He came out to visit at the Reals. It was at about probably the one year point. And he came out and I kind of just clung to his leg like a kid does. As he walked around all day, I just held on to him. And at the end of the day, being at the Reals, he said, “Would you want to move back in with me?”
Jim D:
And it was kind of that, for those people who are watching that maybe grew up in an alcoholic home, it was kind of the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde response, which was yeah, yes. And then quietly I was thinking, which dad am I going to get. But it had to be far better than this. And that’s that resiliency of a child’s heart I was talking about. I was all in. Dad, I don’t mind if you’re still drinking, I just got to get out of this place. I didn’t say it but it’s what I was thinking. I moved back in.
Warwick F:
With a few years with your dad or?
Jim D:
Actually only one year. Moved in for a year. We ended up having a family gathering because my sister closest to age in me was now turning 18 and she was going to be moving out. And the siblings didn’t think I should remain with my dad who was still struggling, not as bad, but there were episodes where he would binge drink and be passed out. I would step in to make sure everything got done. Yeah, at the end of that year, my family said, we need to get together, you’ve got to tell dad because he’s not going to understand it from us. I think I’m 11 years old at this point.
Warwick F:
Oh my gosh.
Jim D:
I remember having the family conference and I remember looking at my dad, saying, “I don’t think I should live with you anymore.” I’m looking this way because that’s where he was sitting, at the moment, it was off to my 11 o’clock. And I remember looking at him and just saying, “Dad, I don’t think I should live with you.” And he looked at me and he said, “Well, why not?” And nobody had prepped me for that question which would have been very helpful as an 11 year old. But I just looked at him after a moment, which felt like eternity and I sat there going, how do I answer this, how do I answer this. And I’m afraid, I’m scared that I’m not going to answer correctly, I’m going to wound him. All those emotions are running through my heart.
Jim D:
And I just looked at him and this is what came to my mind, and I looked at him, I said, “Because of how you treated mom, I don’t think I can live with you by myself.” Imagine your 11 year old saying that. To his credit, he stood up, walked across the room to me, he hugged me, which was very much like my father. Some of the fondest memories were him just putting his hand through my hair and saying, I love you. And he came over and he hugged me. And he said, “I understand that I wasn’t a good husband, I’m not a good father.” And he walked out of the room out of the house, basically moved to Reno, Nevada. That was the last time I saw him. He ended up dying within about four months of exposure. He was drunk and went into an abandoned building in the winter and froze to death. And that was hard.
Warwick F:
That was just an amazing, it’s amazing you had the courage to say that. And he obviously heard that at least at some level. So that’s an incredibly tough upbringing. How did you get beyond that? Where you are now. If you looked at who you were there at 11, and somebody said, you know, he’s got a head up a massive nonprofit, you would have said, probably not, not seeing it. How did you get beyond such terrible circumstances?
Jim D:
The one thing that I always had, it was a strange thing, it was just this hope, I always had hope. You can knock me down but I always got up. There’s always tomorrow, there’s always something better around the corner. I just had that attitude in my heart. When I was that five year old and my dad left. Going back to that five year old state, I remember my dad saying to me, he wasn’t living with us, and this is something in my own parenting that I really remembered and tried never to do, which is to break a promise. And the reason was that when I was five, or seven, I was having my seventh birthday, and my dad, I had seen him briefly for a moment, he said, “Hey, I’m going to bring you a baseball mitt for your seventh birthday,” which was only about a week or two away.
Jim D:
I remember on that day, my birthday, a friend of mine was over at our house spending time with me. And I’d run to the curb every 15 minutes and look up and down the street looking for my dad. And he never came. I remember Ricky, my friend at the end of the day, it was probably like 6:37, the evening was there, the sun’s going down and it was our last trek to the curb to look for my dad. And I remember him just kind of hitting me gently in the shoulder saying, “Hey, it’s okay. It’s okay.” And he went home and I remember walking back into my house thinking that it’s not okay. And it was that great lesson for me with my own boys that are now 19 and 17, one thing I always tried to do is to make very few promises. And then when I had made a promise to always keep it because of the pain it caused me, my dad let me down, that I wasn’t worth it, that he couldn’t keep his word. Even if he didn’t bring the mitt, I could care less. I just wanted to see if he would show up on my birthday. Man, absolutely.
Jim D:
So then, what did I learn and where did I go from there? I moved in with my brother who was 19 married to his 16 year old girlfriend and that had its own challenges. I went to junior high and high school living with my brother, who at that time went through two wives. And we lived as bachelors for a period of time during that. I remember playing football, varsity football at the high school. I’d say, “I’m going to be out after the game tonight going to party.” He’d say, “Okay, that’s no problem.” I’d say, “what time you want me to come home?” He’d say, “two, three in the morning should work.” And I literally would walk out thinking I’ll try to stay out that late. It became a challenge for me, I could stay out till three in the morning. That’s the kind of parental leadership I had.
Warwick F:
Kind of non-existent. But I-
Jim D:
You know, go ahead.
Warwick F:
I was going to say, you said you had hope, but there must have been something that led you to follow a different path and your dad stepped out or even some of your siblings. What led you to have a path that was a bit more constructive in life than what you’d grown up with?
Jim D:
One of the things for me, structure became important and I found structure in school and in sports. So I played sports, I played football, basketball, baseball through the school year. I was good enough, I made the teams, I started, and it was all fun. It kept me really busy in every way. I think with my siblings, I don’t share this very often, but living with my brother, watching him make the choices that he made in a weird way, it opened a window of wisdom to me because I can remember, why would he go out with that woman? Can’t he see that she’s no good. And then they’d be married for eight, nine months and then divorced. And it upset me. I think in some ways, I had resentment toward him, that he didn’t have better decision making ability. But it also informed me in an indirect way about making better choices. And so I think that really helped me.
Jim D:
And then, when I was 15, I had a football coach, Paul Morrow, who just died last year, I was at his funeral, I spoke at his funeral because we got him his rookie year out of Cal State Long Beach. And he was gung ho, and he just really kind of the typical thing, when he saw me kind of lagging on the football field, he’d grab my face mask and kind of jerked me around. “If you’re going to lead this team then you must finish the wind sprints first.” Probably illegal today, but it got my attention. This was like, the first time in my life I had a man calling me out to be something more than a wounded boy.
Jim D:
And I responded, thankfully. I didn’t resent it. In fact, I loved it. And the harder he was on me to perform in the football sense, the more I responded. And then one day he said, “Hey, I’d like to go to a Fellowship of Christian Athletes camp at Point Loma. I’ll pay the money for you to go but we’re going down.” Probably about eight of us from that football team went, there’s probably 40 guys at this camp. And then we had a professional, actually a quarterback from San Diego Chargers came down and he said, “Have men let you down? Has your stepfather let you down?” I was like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to me. Thought he was going to say, Has Mr. Real let you down. But it was that close to my heart and it just compelled me and I became a Christian. And believe me, I wobbled. I was 15 but I still was doing things I shouldn’t do up until about 22, really. I had this battle going on in my heart up until 22.
Jim D:
And then at 22, ironically, I went to college, paid my way through college. I worked. I ended up going to the University of Waseda in Japan on overseas study program. And again, I think just all of that structure where I could excel and succeed, I leaned into that. So I didn’t do drugs, I didn’t fall in that direction, which I easily could have. I think from my perspective, it was God’s hand, it was just the Lord saying, it’s a better way, let me show you a better way. It’s the book of Proverbs.
Warwick F:
I think there are some really important insights, just the power of both positive role models in your coach but negative role models as listeners will know from my story growing up in a very wealthy family media business in Australia. It was founded by a strong believer but at the time I grew up, there was a lot of power of money, pride, arrogance, some other family members who were just sort of about the money and didn’t work that hard.
Warwick F:
And yeah, so for me, I can relate at one level as that sort of negative role model was like that’s not going to be me. I’m going to work hard, I’m not going to be some arrogant Fairfax, which in Sydney, meant a lot. Positive role models, I don’t know, I probably had some faith was certainly a cornerstone. But it is amazing, the power of a negative role model to say, I’m not going to be that person, I’m going to be different. You make a choice. Maybe it’s, obviously, from our perspective, it’s God’s hand putting people in your life. And for me, I came to faith in Christ at an evangelical Anglican Church at Oxford. He has his hand on each of us.
Warwick F:
So it sounds like you chose a different track. You didn’t go obviously from college right to Focus. You had some other things that you were doing. When you were in college, did you say gosh, I want to be a missionary or?
Jim D:
Are you kidding me? When I was in college it was how do I make money because money is what you live on. There was a point in college, this is one of the saddest, probably, I was a sophomore, I was at Cal State San Bernardino. I got in at UC San Diego and a few other schools in California, but I decided I wanted to be close to my brother. I mean, again, just that weird attachment probably like PTSD. I thought, okay, he might need my help or I might need his help so I’ll stay close. So I turned down UC San Diego, which would have been great. Went to Cal State San Bernardino. Probably told you more about my SAT score than I want to share.
Jim D:
When I was there as a sophomore, I remember there was one point I really wasn’t connected with my siblings, they were all struggling in their own way, they were living their own lives. They were older than me. Some were married, some were having children, some were struggling with other issues. But I just wasn’t connected, I wasn’t talking to them on the phone. They didn’t know what my situation was. I remember Christmas was coming my sophomore year at university. I had nowhere to go. I mean, literally, I had nowhere to go. So I had to go to the school and petition that I could live in the dorms for that three weeks that we were going to be out.
Jim D:
And I remember them saying, there’s not going to be any electricity on. You can stay there and we’ll make an exception, but you literally outside of the security team covering this 400 acre campus, you’re going to be the only person here. I was like, I’ll do it, I have no choice. That was a lonely experience being on this sprawling campus and going back to these seven or eight dorms with literally no human being there. I’m the only car in the parking lot. And with no electricity. I had a candle, a flashlight. I was very lonely. Again, it was this feelings as a nine year old boy losing my mom. That was kind of the theme through all those years was just this desperate loneliness. I’m so thankful to say today I don’t have that feeling any longer.
Gary S:
I know that we’re going to turn a little bit here in a bit and talk about the life of significance, Jim, that you’ve built. But I want the listeners to really focus on something extremely important about what we’ve heard, not even what we’ve been talking about. Jim has described some truly traumatic, painful experiences in his life. And have you heard listener, the joy in his voice, the joy in his heart? It is possible to come out on the other side. If you’re going through a crucible experience right now, remember this conversation because I know Jim, I know what he’s been through.
Gary S:
But just listening to him, he’s not making light of the situations that happened to him, but he’s got joy because he found opportunities, as he said, he looked for hope, he always had hope. He always tried to find hope in the most, what some people would see as hopeless situations. That is an important thing for listeners who are going through their own crucibles to remember. You can have joy, which isn’t circumstantial, that’s internal. You can have joy even in circumstances that are terribly, terribly difficult.
Jim D:
So true, so true. And I think that’s the core again, with my Christian faith, it informs me. There’s a wonderful verse in the Bible that says he is close to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit. In many ways, that’s my life verse. I think the differences, I have friends that have had only mountaintop experiences, kind of what you were describing, your family experience. Money brings a lot of ease to life. You can pay for things like education, you can go to the best colleges and all those things. If you have a golden touch and you’re capable, you can write bestselling books, you can start organizations, you can do a lot of good things.
Jim D:
But I’m telling you, your character is formed in the valley. And some of the weakest people that I’ve encountered are people that have never had valley experiences.
Warwick F:
And that’s something that’s hard for people understand, there is blessings in setback. My setback is very different. For me, it was the $2 billion takeover to try to resurrect the company in the image of the founder. And I was young, naive, idealistic, a person of faith. That ended, and so I was responsible for ending 150 year old family business. I still have a Wikipedia entry and it’s not particularly favorable. Young hot-headed kid who could have had it all, naive, made stupid decision and lost at all. If you google me, that’s what it is. You obviously don’t want to be defined by Google or Wikipedia, at least in my case. It gives you a sense of humility, it makes you less prone to judge other people when you’ve made your own.
Warwick F:
I didn’t deliberately try to hurt anybody but I just made a lot of dumb mistakes. Yeah, it does test your character. So, obviously, you live an incredible life of significance. So you’re in college, don’t really have a community. How did you get to a point where you feel like you are serving other people, serving a higher purpose, serving what God called you to? How did life change from college?
Jim D:
Again, I did a business degree. I thought the best thing I could do, one, to take care of myself and my hopefully future family is I have to do well, I have to earn money. So I went to work, I worked for International Paper, I worked in the paper industry for about seven years. And again, I found a great mentor in that environment too, Jeff Eaves who was a tremendous friend, much like coach Paul Morrow, he kind of picked up where Paul Morrow left off and kind of hewned me in a great way and develop even my moral principles. He was not a Christian but he was a very good guy.
Jim D:
I evolved into that, I ended up going on a plant tour. I was working out of college, I worked for a Christian organization briefly and I ended up on a plant tour at the International Paper. And I ended up accepting a job offer they made me about a week later. They called and said, “You impressed us on that plant tour and we’d like to hire you.” So I did. And so I went seven years in that industry. And then I got a call from a friend. And one of the things that’s so important, I think, again, from the Christian perspective, I was just willing to get up every day and do the best I could do, to work as hard as I could work that day. And then, I’m going to trust God for the rest.
Jim D:
I mean, this thing really unfolded in such a miraculous way. So I had a friend that I met at Campus Crusade, that organization I worked for briefly, Ron Wilson, who’s still here at Focus on the Family. And I called him because there was a gentleman that was a customer of mine and I wanted to introduce him to other Christians. I just felt that, his son worked at Campus Crusade, ironically. I was up in the Bay Area, but I wanted this man to be surrounded by people that knew God and I thought he had a heart for those things and was open.
Jim D:
So I ended up calling Ron. And at the end of the conversation, he said, “Have you ever thought about working in nonprofit again?” I said, “Not really because I want to eat.” That’s a good orphan kid response, I want to eat. I’ve made up for it, obviously. But the point of it is, he said, “There’s a position coming open at Focus on the Family. I’d love to call you. Should be two or three weeks.” I said, “Okay, give me a call, I’ll take a look at it.” And 10 months went by. And I remember just praying, saying, God, I don’t want to push a door open, and so I’m not going to call Ron back. If you want to make it happen, I’ll just sit patiently.
Jim D:
Well, these 10 months go by. Wednesday night, I go out to dinner with the plant manager at IP in San Francisco. And he says, “Hey, we’re going to give you a promotion.” I went, “Wow, that’s great.” And here’s what it is. And I thought to myself, this is why the other thing didn’t open up. I get home and my wife Jean says, “Hey, there’s a message on the machine, I didn’t really listen to it.” Well, that was Ron calling me back 10 months later on the very night I got the promotion offer, saying, “Hey, we got the position.” So I called Ron back the next day on Thursday. I flew down with Jean on Friday to interview with Dr. Dobson, everybody at Focus, Saturday, they made a job offer. And I think I turned down 150,000 for 32,000. I remember my dear, amazing wife, I said, “What do you think we should do?” And she said, “I trust whatever you’d like to do, I believe God will be with you.” Isn’t that awesome?
Warwick F:
What led you to make that choice because given the way you grew up with nothing, turning down that much money, it’s not like you didn’t understand the consequences.
Jim D:
Absolutely. But I think the thing is, to your point earlier, oftentimes, our pain bears our passion. And that’s the case for me. I thought of those kids that could be helped if I went to Focus on the Family. What an amazing thing as an orphan kid, I could maybe help other children not suffer the things that I suffered through divorce, through addiction, etc. And that was just always in the back of my mind, what little role could I play in this organization. And to your point earlier, little did I know, 30 years later after being here at Focus that I would become president at Focus on the Family. That’s still a bizarre.
Warwick F:
Well, it is. I don’t know. I mean, for me as I tell my story and try to help others, there is a little bit of a healing balm when you can use your pain to help others. Obviously, for me, it’s my faith in Christ and the fact that he loves me unconditionally was the cornerstone of my recovery and having a wife like you who loves me unconditionally. I have three kids, two boys and a girl. That’s all part of a wonderful plan. My dad was married three times, my mother twice, I was from the last marriage of each. I tell them, you have no idea how lucky you are. To be married 30 years and they have a wonderful mother. I mean, they’re just clueless as to how blessed. I’m sure you probably with your two boys. Maybe you don’t tell them that, maybe you do.
Jim D:
No, I do.
Warwick F:
You don’t realize there are alternatives. But did you feel like as you’re working with Focus that there was a healing element as you were able to use your pain to help others in some fashion?
Jim D:
I think there was. Did I recognize it? Probably not like I should have. I think, again, it’s funny, I’ve always had this mentality of waking up each day and just putting my left foot in front of my right foot. It’s just been one of those things. It’s kind of like, I can remember, to give you an area where I fell short. I remember 15, 16 years ago, my wife’s brother committed suicide. Life’s experiences come to the surface in these moments. I can remember my wife really struggling, obviously, with the fact that her brother had died. And much to my discredit, I mean, my orphan survivor mentality was to try to encourage her by saying, “You know what, we got to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps. We got to get moving. We’ve got to overcome this.” I thought that was a positive thing to say.
Jim D:
And I remember she looked at me and said, “Jim, not all of us can do that. You can but I can’t. I’ve got to grieve.” Man, it put me right back on my heels because I, then I’m going, okay, have I grieved properly? And I don’t think I ever had really. I just got up every morning and started going. And I don’t think I ever stopped-
Warwick F:
That’s a challenge. You have to keep moving on but certainly one of the things I found is unless you can grieve and deal with some of the pain and the past and the anger and disappointment, yeah, it stops you from fully moving on. It’s a process. It takes a while.
Warwick F:
So, just this last couple minutes here. You’ve been president of Focus for quite a number of years now. Everybody thinks Dr. Dobson but you’ve been president-
Jim D:
15.
Warwick F:
So, it’s always challenging, just looking at it more broadly when you inherit the mantle from a beloved founder. Inevitably, every new leader wants to put their own stamp or they might feel called to move things in a different direction. Obviously, Focus is an organization that people know something about. From what I’ve read, I think you, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but you wanted to sort of maybe return it to its roots or refocus its mission. I don’t know how you would describe it. Does that make sense? I’m trying to think of the right diplomatic way to put that.
Jim D:
It comes down to a meeting I had with Dr. Dobson right toward the end of his time in 2010. He stepped out of February 2010. But I can remember probably around December, January, right before he stepped out, he asked me to do an audit on the broadcast just to take a measure of the content that we had done in the previous three years. I was kind of eager to do that because I thought I knew how it would turn out, and it turned out the direction I thought it would but even more intensely.
Jim D:
And what happened is we had only had one new marriage program recorded in that three year period. So we did re-airs but we weren’t recording new programming. For three years, only one new marriage program. We had about 26 parenting programs that were new in that three year period, but we had 128 policy programs. And that’s where his interests lied. It was in this idea, understandably, that if I work hard in that government area, we can get some things corrected. And he had said to me one day, “I’ve kind of said all I could say about marriage and parenting, and that’s why my energy is directed here.” So I get it. As a 70 something year old man, I think he was turning to the handles that he felt he could make some change.
Jim D:
Yet at the same time, our audience is 68% females, a lot of moms who were saying, how do I keep my marriage together? How do I raise children that honor God and can succeed? So I really wanted us to get back to those basics which now we’re at 80% programming on marriage and parenting, proud to say.
Warwick F:
And again, another lesson for leaders, I’m reminded of a book, Mission Drift, that you’re probably familiar with.
Jim D:
Exactly right.
Warwick F:
And it doesn’t mean to say other missions are wrong, but Focus was founded to help families. And there’s a huge need for that, you can get into other areas that can be more controversial. There’s absolutely a place for that. But the question is is that Focus’ role versus some other organization because if you start trying to do everything, you tend to do nothing particularly well. And that’s not a right or wrong thing, it’s just a matter of a choice. And you obviously, with your background, had a huge passion for the family, huge need. It shows a lot of courage to say, I respect and revere the founder, but with all due respect, I just feel like we need to focus on the family, so to speak, that is the name of the organization, right?
Jim D:
So true. It was so hard in that moment because Dr. Dobson like Chuck Colson or Billy Graham, he’s an iconic figure, beloved, and I got that. It’s interesting, when you’re doing a transition like that, I remember the first question I received and Gary was nearby as our VP of media at the time. And the first question, I think it was an AP reporter when the transition had been formally announced, we did the invocation. And then Dr. Dobson and I went to a media moment, and the reporter said, “How are you going to fill his shoes?” And I remember just thinking for a minute, and I just quickly responded, “I can’t, I can’t fill his shoes. I got to get my own pair of shoes.” And that’s true.
Jim D:
And I think for those who are taking over, particularly from a founder, you’re going to have some turbulence, because you cannot do it the same way. And anything you can convey to that founder to say, I love you, I respect you, but I can’t think like you always. Some things like dress code or some of the other things, we’re going to do it differently. And I remember one of the best questions I asked, I felt Dr. Dobson, I said, you know, he said, “Just stay true to the principles.” And I think wisely I said, “Well, in your mind, what’s a principle?” And that was the question because he even responded in the context of the dress code is principle. Everything in the orbit of Focus was principle. And it can’t be, being pro-life, being pro marriage, being pro family, those are the core principles.
Warwick F:
One of the things I really admire is, obviously I understand the organization’s pro-life, pro-family, pro traditional marriage. But yet from what I’ve read is you’ve tried to meet with people who have different viewpoints. Doesn’t mean that you agree but in our divided political culture people just hurl insults at each other, which I personally don’t think helps. You can disagree with somebody strongly without calling them names. Talk a bit about that because that seemed, it’s different than some, like you disagree with them but you’re willing to meet and dialogue. That’s pretty impressive.
Jim D:
Absolutely. Actually, it should be the standard way that Christians go about living their lives. But unfortunately, you’re right, we get caught up into the human side of debates and conflict, and we lean into our human nature rather than God’s spiritual nature. And it’s hard. I mean, because it goes against the grain. But that’s been one of the things to reach out to the LGBTQ community, to reach out to the abortion community, to develop friendships so that we can have dialogue.
Jim D:
The one thing that, well, there’s many things that I’ve learned in that context, but a couple, one, for us, as Christians, if you’re calling yourself a Christian, then there’s two great commandments that God gives us and that’s to love him with all of our heart, soul and mind, and then to love our neighbor as ourself. The great thing is, especially that I’ve recognized in the LGBTQ community, those friendships that I reached out to, they responded very beautifully. And I can tell you, those friendships are genuine, they’re deep and they’re real, and they go on today. Things are changing.
Jim D:
When you sincerely show love and respect for another person, I think God has wired us in such a way that our hearts crack open to that person. We can’t resist that kind of love. And that’s why I think he said, love your neighbor. And when you do that, it’s amazing the connection that you’ll find. You don’t have to agree on everything but you can love your neighbor. God gives us that capacity, and that’s a good place to start.
Warwick F:
And it breaks down the barrier of people thinking that Christians are bigoted, judgemental, holier than thou, hypocrites, that a lot of other people think. I mean, that’s not helpful to the cause of Christ or the cause of Jesus if that’s what people think. But you loving other people, being clear about your position, it’s like, gosh, this Jim guy, he seemed like a decent human being. Who knew?
Jim D:
I appreciate that. One of the best compliments I received from one of these people that I reached out to, he’s the kind of guy I’d like to go have a beer with. I thought to myself, that’s probably something they may have said of the Lord. He hung out with that crowd. He seemed to be comfortable with them. When you said that, I mean, here’s a point for the Christian community listening, if the fruit of the Spirit is not present in our lives, there’s a problem because the Lord said, they’re going to know you and they’ll know me through the fruit, my fruit that they see in you.
Jim D:
So if you don’t have it, I would go back around and ask the Lord to make sure that his fruit, and this is love, joy, goodness, kindness, mercy, self-control, patience. If you don’t possess those things, it’s not a restaurant menu that you get to choose from. These things should be in your life and growing as a Christian. We can’t expect the world to operate from those principles.
Jim D:
Funny story quickly. I had lunch with David Horowitz, the former communist, he wrote a book called, How the Left is Trying to Kill Christianity, something like that. We’re at lunch and he goes, “Jim, Jim, don’t you realize that you Christians you’re in an alley fight and the other side has switchblades.” I said, “David, we’re not that stupid. We know they’re armed. The problem is we have to bring into the alley fight love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, mercy. Not the best implements in an alley fight, but they are God’s tools.”
Warwick F:
And think of Jesus, he’s in the garden, and Peter’s trying to get out the sword. And what does Jesus say? Okay, let’s go for it. No. Put down your sword, that’s not the way of Jesus.
Gary S:
In the time that we have left, Jim, I want to make sure that you get a chance to talk about this, talk about a life of significance. One of the things that Focus on the Family’s doing this summer, Alive 2020. Tell our listeners a little bit about what that is just so they …
Jim D:
Again, it’s something thankfully Focus has always been doing and that’s to help in the pro-life movement. And we started probably 15 years ago now, maybe a little longer, something called Option Ultrasound. And that was to place ultrasound machines in pregnancy resource clinics around the country. There’s a lot to that. We had to get them medically ready, we had to work with them, etc. But we’ve had over 800 machines placed in these locations, which has resulted in about I think now we’re at 459,000 babies saved. So these are women that have walked into the clinic, basically said, I’m abortion-minded, they see the ultrasound of their baby, they walk out saying, I’m going to keep the baby or let the baby be adopted. So that’s a great victory for what we believe.
Jim D:
So in New York, New York had gone so liberal on these laws and Governor Cuomo had signed into law basically that an abortion was doable up until the birth canal. And boy, just the energy of that, the negative energy, high fiving each other in the state legislature when that was passed, etc, it was repulsive. Even if you can pass it, do it with a heavy heart because you’re taking innocent human life. So that led us to do Alive from New York, and yes, I was sitting in my office I thought we need to call it Alive from New York. First, my general counsel, my lawyer’s saying, “You can’t do that.” He said, “Well, let’s wait till we get the letter.” The letter never came. My response in my mind was going to be, hey, I thought you guys were comedians. This is funny. But it never came.
Jim D:
And so we did it, we had about 20,000 people in Times Square. We did a late third trimester ultrasound of Abby Johnson, the former Planned Parenthood clinic director, who was pregnant at the time, eight months, and her baby Fulton was kicking away. And so, we did the live ultrasound along with great music and everything. We had about 400 protesters there and I just remember the first three speakers were African American Alveda King, Christina Bennett, and Benjamin Watson who played NFL football 15 years, just ended his career with the Patriots. I remember, one of them got up and said, “Hey, more black babies were killed in New York City last year than were born.” And I remember, the Black Lives Matters people, they looked at each other, threw their signs down, their protest signs and joined our group. And that was awesome. That was probably one of the greatest victories of the day.
Jim D:
But when that ultrasound came on, the protesters, their signs came down, their jaws hung open, they could hear the heartbeat. Probably the first time in their life they’ve actually seen an ultrasound and heard the heartbeat. And they simply walked away, they just walked away. And so we’re coming back May 9, a simulcast of five cities, LA, Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, to celebrate life, to show people the baby, and to make a simple statement that these people deserve our protection. This is the greatest human rights campaign in the country. And that’s what we’re going to stand for these voiceless children.
Warwick F:
Wow, that is so impressive. I remember watching that video that you talked about in New York just to see people’s faces just stop talking, stop shouting and look at the screen.
Jim D:
It was an amazing moment, it fell quiet.
Warwick F:
You obviously feel as we, I mean, obviously living a life of significance, doing what God is calling you to do. One of the things I always tell people is, leaders are at all levels. Few people are going to be heading up an organization as big as Focus on the Family. And it’s easy to think, well, gosh, Jim Daly is doing all this, what can I do? But to me, it’s, I don’t think God really cares whether you’re head of Focus on the Family or some neighborhood nonprofit or just helping a neighbor down the street. That’s all the same to him, not to minimize what you do. A lot of people will say, well, I might as well just pack it in because I’m never going to be Jim Daly and that kind of thing. I’m sure you have people sort of say that to you. That’s not the way God looks at it, right?
Jim D:
Not at all. Not at all. I mean, for me, I can remember I went to pick Trent, my oldest son up at school one day. I think he’s a freshman, I’d already been president for five years, and he jumped in the car and he goes, “Are you the president of Focus?” I said, “Why?” And he said, “Well, my friends told me you were the president, but I told them all you just worked at Focus.” That’s how insignificant the title is because it didn’t matter to me. And I said, “Yeah, I’m the president, but it doesn’t matter.” Probably the best parental lesson I ever gave my sons was in that moment.
Jim D:
And I would say, wake up every day to try to do your best in whatever you’re doing. Don’t let the ball and chain of your past bog you down. It shouldn’t, it doesn’t have to. Don’t live with that crap that took you down. And if you stay there, you’re in bondage. I’m telling you from a Christian perspective, that’s what life in Christ is all about, is freeing you from that. I meet so many people that were wounded in ways worse than me and maybe not as bad as me. But they’re stuck there. And I’m telling you, that is not the place to spend your one lifetime stuck in that kind of emotional bondage. Cut it loose, don’t hold it against your father, your mother, your sibling, whatever happened to you. It was probably very painful, but I’m telling you, it doesn’t work to live back there in the past. Cut it loose, live every day and do well and you’ll be blessed.
Warwick F:
That’s probably a final message. I know one of Gary’s phrase is time to land the plane, and certainly that. But what you said about forgiveness, certainly something I’ve had to learn just, certainly I’ve had my collection of people I needed to forgive as well as myself. You can’t move on and be whole unless you forgive. And you’ve had a lot of people that would require a lot of soul work to forgive. Biological father, foster parents, stepdad. But you obviously must have because you couldn’t be doing what you’re doing if you hadn’t. A huge lesson for everybody. Doesn’t mean that what they did is right, but for your own sanity and your own emotional well being, you got to be able to forgive. And so you’ve done that, which is such a blessing. So Gary, over to you.
Gary S:
Yes. Thank you, Jim Daly, for spending time with us. Thank you, listener, for spending time with us. It’s kind of fun for me to be talking to my old boss and my current boss at the same time. I get the last word which is fabulous. If you’ve heard anything in this podcast, listener, that you want to learn more about, you can visit us at crucibleleadership.com. We also have a favor to ask of you, if you found this enlightening, to help us get the message out to more people. And that is, on the app you’re listening to this podcast on now, click subscribe. That will make sure that you don’t miss any episodes and that you will help us share this with other people who’ve gone through crucibles and need to find the hope that Jim and Warwick talked about here today.
Gary S:
So until we’re together the next time, remember, the crucible experiences as we’ve discussed here can be painful. They can change your life, they can be difficult, but they are far, far, far from the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning, if you learn the lessons of them, if you apply the lessons of them, they can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story that can be the best chapter of all because it leads to a life of significance.
What do you hope your friends and loved ones remember about you after you’re gone? What words would you like spoken in your eulogy? Written on your headstone? In this thoughtful and insightful new episode, Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax explores practical ways we can live today in a manner that leaves a legacy that outlives us well into tomorrow. The key, he and co-host Gary Schneeberger discuss, is pursuing your career and caring for your family with the kind of character you want to define you in life … and beyond. “If it matters to you on your deathbed,” Warwick notes, “why not get a head start and do something about your legacy now?”
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everybody to this episode of Beyond The Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And you have clicked play, you have clicked download, you have clicked subscribe on a podcast that deals with what the title says; crucible experiences. It deals with them in the context of your leadership. Your crucible experiences are those things that can be failures, that can be traumatic, tragic, difficult circumstances in your life. It’s those pain points that we all experience and we talk about them in the context of this show to not wallow in them, not to live in the past, but to bring the past forward to the present and the future and to help us come away with hope for overcoming those crucibles, strategies for overcoming those crucibles, moving past those crucibles and then ultimately to charting a course to a life of significance.
Gary S:
I am joined as always by the founder of Crucible Leadership and the host of Beyond The Crucible, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, it’s great to be back together again.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. Looking forward to it.
Gary S:
I talked at the outset about how we talk about crucible experiences in order to not live in the past, but to bring the past into the present and then bring the past through the future and the subject that we’re going to talk about today is really one that is focused on how we live today in the present and how that affects the future. We’re going to talk today about legacy. And it’s something that comes up an awful lot in Warwick’s writings, an awful lot in just the conversations he has as he talks about what crucible leadership’s about.
Gary S:
So Warwick, I’m going to sit back and let the listeners know a little bit about what legacy is and isn’t and how we go about building a good one.
Warwick F:
Thanks, Gary. Legacy is sort of a bit of a loaded word. For me, like for a lot of people, you think of legacy, how do you want to be remembered by? For me, growing up, I think a lot of listeners would know, in a large family media business in Australia, legacy was an intimidating word. Sort of a concept that brought almost fear because the company was founded by my great, great grandfather, John Fairfax. He’d come out from England in the late 1830s and he founded this huge media company that, by the time I was growing up, had newspapers, TV stations, radio stations, magazines. It was an enormous company with thousands of employees. So the legacy was huge.
Warwick F:
So I grew up in an environment where my parents were hoping that I could continue the legacy of the founder. They would say to me, “You could be one of the great Fairfax’s,” which, to me, translated to having a legacy that would impact Australia, where I grew up, the nation, the landscape. Somehow make it a better place. My name would live on for, I don’t know, long time.
Warwick F:
So if you’d asked me then what’s a legacy, it would be carrying on the ideals of the founder and making a name that would somehow make its mark in history. I mean, that’s a mammoth benchmark. And what made it worse in a sense, as I’m reflecting on it, is my dad loved history. He was a big Anglophile, loved everything in terms of English history. So we would read about, talk about some of the great heroes, whether it’s the Duke of Wellington, the Battle of Waterloo and the Napoleonic Wars, or Admiral Horatio Nelson before the Battle of Trafalgar sending a signal to the fleet saying, “England expects every man to do is duty.” I mean, stirring stuff. That was kind of the model.
Warwick F:
I loved American history. So whether it’s Lincoln, Washington, all these great leaders in history and it’s like, “Well, that’s what it is to leave a legacy,” I suppose in my naivety and youth. So yeah, it almost felt like leaving a legacy. What’s your chances of that, like one in a million? I mean, I have a different view now, but legacy felt so intimidating. It’s like, “Well, why bother?” Who could leave a legacy like Churchill, Lincoln, Nelson, even my great, great grandfather? It’s like you just give up.
Gary S:
And here’s the good news to all of our listeners. You do not have to be Churchill. You do not have to be Washington. You do not have to be Admiral Horatio Nelson. What we’re going to talk about today, the aspect of legacy that we’re going to talk about, is not that grand, is not that historic making necessarily. Nothing wrong if it is, but the legacy that we’re going to talk about is a bit more personal in the sense that it affects a smaller group of people and it reflects on the way that you lived your life.
Gary S:
One of the things that you didn’t mention, Warwick, that is part of the story of your great, great grandfather’s legacy, he was a big name and Fairfax Media was a huge operation in Australia. But there was also, and we think about this a lot when we think of legacy, sometimes we go there first. Legacy is about money. Legacy is about what you leave materially to the generation that follows. And I know in your own case that was true with part of the legacy that John Fairfax left.
Warwick F:
Yes, no. It’s a good point that certainly he came out from England in the late 1830s with pretty much nothing and built this huge media business. And yes, over succeeding generations, it led to his kids, grandkids, great grandkids having a far better lifestyle. Certainly wealth, money, power. Yes, all that was there. But there’s really a greater legacy, which was helpful to me because his listeners will know, when I launched the $2.25 billion takeover in ’87 and several years later the company went under my stewardship, if I was just focused on the family business legacy, that would be a little devastating because I ended it.
Warwick F:
But yet I would say there was a greater legacy and it was more his character. He was a wonderful dad, a wonderful husband. His kids loved him, wife loved him, his employees loved him. When he died, these employees felt they’d lost a very valued friend, somebody that they really admired.
Warwick F:
So really the way he treated people, his character, he was a person of great faith, an elder of his church. There was a legacy in terms of faith and character that was passed down in my family through the generations. So while at the time the faith became a bit more traditional, there was always this legacy of service. Our family members never tried to manipulate news to push any particular agenda. The goal was always to try to have it independent and fair, and it’s not always a challenge and that can be in the eye of the beholder. But certainly there wasn’t a sense of trying to manipulate things.
Warwick F:
And it was a sense of just service to the community. So the values and character, and certainly for me, the model of his faith, that was a legacy that was carried down through the generations. And ultimately now that’s more what I think of. Not so much, “Oh, what a great boss and he founded this newspaper business,” and that was good. That was a good legacy. I won’t shortchange it at all. But there was a greater legacy. And the greater legacy was more a combination of his character, faith, values how he treated people, and we’ll get to this more later, but think of the scripture, “What should it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul.”
Warwick F:
And I think, so what if you build this big empire, but your family and friends just think you’re a jerk? What’s the point? I remember many years ago listening to a radio station about somebody who founded one of the biggest nonprofits in the world and helps people in pretty much every country, especially where poverty is an issue. And I remember his daughter was on this radio program and she was so bitter because he had this notion, which as unfortunately a person of faith because he said, “I’ve done this deal with God that he’ll look after my family while I go off and do all these wonderful nonprofit things,” which totally distorts, I think a true faith position.
Warwick F:
And she was angry. She was bitter because she didn’t really see much of a dad because he’s running around saving the world. I remember listening to that saying, “I don’t want to be that person. I don’t care how much good I do, I do not want to abandon my wife and kids. That’s not going to be me.” Okay. He founded this great organization, but at what cost? Is that really the legacy you want to live? I mean, I don’t want to be that guy.
Gary S:
Right. And that’s another bit of good news for you, listener, is you do not have to leave $2.25 billion companies behind for the next generations. But those things that Warwick was talking about that we’re going to get into now, we’ve talked a little bit about what isn’t the legacy that necessarily Crucible Leadership is urging people, is trying to help people establish. We’ve talked about what it may not be. But let’s unpack, Warwick, what it might be.
Gary S:
And you recently wrote about this in a blog and one of the things that struck me about one of the things that you wrote was that we have to be intentional about our legacy and to think about it in terms of what do you want your epitaph to be? What do you want people to say about you after you’re gone? How do you want to encourage people? How do you want them to look back? And the way that you look back on John Fairfax, how do you want the future generations in your own family and perhaps if you have a somewhat larger footprint in society or in your spheres of influence, how do you want people to look at you? So unpack for listeners a little bit about what are a few of the things that we can all be thinking about when we’re thinking about establishing a lasting legacy.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, I’ll start with work because that’s often what we think of legacy and it’s so far beyond that that I don’t want to say it’s wrong to be successful, nor do I want to say it’s wrong to make a mark. But it’s more, as I’ve come to realize, it’s less the size of the organization that you might be involved in or your position in it. From a work perspective, it’s more are you doing work that you feel is meaningful, that it’s contributing to society in some way? That you feel like is helping lead a life of significance, help others.
Warwick F:
So yes, that is part of it, but the size, size doesn’t matter. But it’s more than just work. We often think our legacy just about what we do. We’re going to do some wonderful thing. But it’s more about, as much about how do you want to be remembered? Whether it’s your tombstone or somebody’s giving a eulogy at your funeral. Do you want to just be, “Hey, Fred or Mary made millions or billions.” Is that it? It just seems so empty.
Warwick F:
Typically when we’re on our deathbed, we’re not thinking that way. We’re thinking, “What does my wife or husband think? What do my kids think? What of my friends, what of my coworkers?” That’s often a legacy that’s more important. That really gets more into character. How do our beliefs and values translate into how we treat those that love us? Values and beliefs are the cornerstone, our careers, everything we do needs to be in line with that. And to me, if we have a family, and this is certainly my position, if you’re going to have a family, you can’t neglect it. You can’t just abandon your wife, husband or kids and somehow feel like, “Oh, I’m serving some greater cause.” Some people may think that’s okay. I think that’s just wrong. That’s just, I mean, if you’re going to have a family, care for them.
Warwick F:
I mean, I think in my own family, I love my dad very much. I was born when he was in his late fifties. He was married three times, my mother was married twice and I think especially the kids from his first marriage, he was in his 20s, 30s, 40s. He was very involved in the newspaper, was in there all hours working very hard. He was wealthy and so people in the 30s, who were wealthy, they might take a trip to England or Europe for a year. Well, he left his kids at home. There was a nanny looking after them. Now it’s almost like child abuse. But believe it or not, it was not uncommon in society in those days. I loved him very much, but I would never just leave my kids, they were very small, for a year.
Warwick F:
I was a little bit off topic, but he was raised by nannies. I had a nanny when I was small. My kids grew up comfortably, but there’s no way we would have a nanny raise our kids. We took our kids to soccer or recitals. That, to me, is important. And one of the things as I reflect in my own, obviously nobody’s perfect, but what’s interesting to me is one of the things we do on birthdays is we say what we admire about whoever the person’s birthday is and we have some writers in the family and so we write cards and all. And over the years what’s staggering to me, and my kids are all in their twenties now, my boys who played soccer, my daughter did color guard, which is people wave the flags with marching band and concerts and stuff. They all basically said, “Dad, I really appreciated the fact that you were there at my game. At my soccer games, marching band, color guard, concerts. You were there.”
Warwick F:
And I’m not perfect. I’m sure that a lot of things I’ve done wrong, but I’m glad they didn’t say, “Dad, you know what? You were never there at my game. You were never there.” So that’s something that I’m just so grateful. It’s staggering how every single card they ever write, they always say that year after year after year. So all that’s to say is, I know I’m harping on this a bit, but I believe in a strong, if you’re going to have a family be present because that’s the legacy ultimately. It may be the most important legacy that your kids, your grandkids, you want to be admired and respected. You don’t want to say, “Yep, guy or woman was really successful, but I hardly ever knew them. They were never there.”
Warwick F:
You just don’t want to be that person. When it comes to legacy family first, so to speak, friends, coworkers, that’s a legacy that you can influence no matter how prominent or not prominent you are. You might live in a big city, a small town. That’s a legacy we can all influence. And trust me, not many of us are there and listening to this, and hopefully it isn’t anybody in their death bed listening to this podcast. For most of us, we’re not there today. You don’t want to be on your death bed saying, “I blew it,” because there’s no second chances. And what would will you be thinking? You’ll be thinking about those that you love; spouse, kids, friends. That’s the legacy that ultimately will matter to you. So if it matters to you on your deathbed, why not get a headstart and start worrying about it now and start doing something.
Gary S:
Right. It’s interesting that you bring that up about on your death bed and how you want to be remembered on your tombstone. You and I’ve talked about this many times, but I did a little research and if you go back and you look at arguably the three most successful well-known musical stars of the last hundred years. Those would be Elvis Presley for rock and roll, Johnny Cash for country, Frank Sinatra for jazz standards. All of them have passed, and I didn’t tell you this as we were prepping for this podcast, but I did some research. Of those three, they had 42 number one singles in their careers. That is Herculean success when it comes to their chosen careers in music.
Gary S:
How many, listener, we’ll ask you this question rhetorically because you can’t answer to us, but how many of those number one records do you think are mentioned on their tombstone? Warwick, you want to answer that question?
Warwick F:
I have a feeling it’s none.
Gary S:
You’re right, it’s zero. Just very briefly, here’s what is on the tombstones of those three individuals that I spoke of. Frank Sinatra’s tombstone simply says, “Beloved husband and father.” Johnny Cash’s tombstone simply contains the text, or one of the verses from Psalm 19. Psalm 19:14, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, Oh Lord, my strength and my Redeemer.” A man with 13 number one hits, that’s what he chose to be remembered for on his tombstone. Elvis Presley, there is some mention down a very long tombstone, there is some mention of the fact that he changed music and he did some things like that, but no specifics about gold records, big hits, none of that stuff. And it says simply at the top in the biggest letters, “Elvis Aaron Presley, son of Vernon Elvis Presley and Gladys Love Presley and father of Lisa Marie Presley.”
Gary S:
Here you have these people who have every reason to boast in their accomplishments, every reason to focus on their legacy being what they accomplished. And instead they focused on the things that you were just talking about, their family and their faith.
Warwick F:
And that to me says a lot. So think of these three, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash. They’re on their death bed. Do you think they’re thinking, “Boy, I’m so glad for those 41 hits, all the amazing songs?” I think they were grateful. I think they enjoyed it, but that wouldn’t have been their last thoughts. I can’t imagine. They’d be thinking of their kids, their spouse.
Warwick F:
So I don’t want to say don’t pursue your dreams, but there’s nothing wrong with being the next Walt Disney or George Lucas or Steven Spielberg. People that have founded a huge, in this case, movie empires and brought a lot of joy and happiness to people through their work. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you don’t have to be at that level. It could be a small business in a small town or you could be a factory worker for some local plant for 50 years. It doesn’t really matter that much in the whole some scheme of things. It’s more how do those who you’ll leave behind, how will they remember you, your family, your friends, your spouse? How do you want to be remembered? Ultimately, that’s what was important to these three, to Johnny Cash, Elvis Presley and Frank Sinatra.
Warwick F:
So I think we can learn from them. Again, I keep saying is I don’t want people to say, “Okay, so just stick your head in the sand and do nothing.” No, meaningful work where you’re leading a life of significance to help others, that’s fine. But the size of your accomplishment doesn’t matter because for most of us, we’re not going to be remembered by history, 99% of us won’t be remembered now still less in 10, 20 years, 100 years, 1,000 years. It’s kind of meaningless in the whole sum scheme of history.
Warwick F:
Can any of us remember who were some of the great figures in 300AD or something. You know? I mean, maybe there’s a couple of historians, most of us, no. Most of us don’t care. So just how you treat others, how you’re remembered by those that love you. As Gary said, “What do you want on your tombstone?”
Warwick F:
And just picture this. Imagine somebody is giving your eulogy. Now imagine you could give them some notes. Not suggesting you write your eulogy before you die and hand it to your descendants, to read. But just think about what would you like them to say about you? And then do an assessment of your own life and say, “Okay, how far off am I from what I would like that eulogy to look like?” And if you feel like there’s a gap, and for some of us that might be a big gap, what can we do now?
Warwick F:
And that may mean choices. If you’re a traveling salesman and you’re gone 52 weeks a year, well maybe you need to find another way to help support your family so that you’re going to be around a bit more. Life’s about choices, but make choices in your life that are in line with your values and beliefs and your legacy and in line with how the eulogy that you want to be given, not the one that may be given, but the one that you want to be given. The time is now to make those life defining, legacy defining choices.
Warwick F:
Don’t wait on your death bed and say, “I blew it.” Now’s the time to change the course of your life, assuming it needs changing, to leave a legacy that you want to leave. A legacy that your family, friends, coworkers, will admire. That’s something that every single listener here can make a significant difference in. That is in your control to change. Other things in life, you can’t control. Your legacy, I don’t know about control it, but you can significantly influence your legacy. Everybody can do that.
Gary S:
Right. I want to circle back to your great, great grandfather, John Fairfax, because yes, there’s an ending point. There’s a natural point to talk about legacy on the death bed, on your tombstone. But there’s also what we talk about, a living legacy. And Warwick, I would submit, and I’d like to hear your comments on this for the listeners, but John Fairfax’s legacy is still living today beyond his tombstone, beyond his eulogy. It’s still living today in you and in your children. Fair?
Warwick F:
It is and it’s interesting. There’s one other quote that I want to read because I think it has a different meaning than I think I maybe originally thought. So, john Fairfax was a man of great faith, went to the Pitt Street Congregational Church in Sydney, which is still standing. It’s in downtown Sydney. And the pastor, at his funeral, he chose as his text, 2 Samuel 3:38. And in the King James, which is kind of what they used back then, says this. “Know ye not that there is a prince and a great man fallen this day in Israel.” And you think, “Okay fine. So he was kind of like a king and did really well.” He did well.
Warwick F:
But when I look at that, it’s more why did they consider him a prince and a great man? I would say it was far more about his character, about how he treated people, how his employees looked at him, how his wife and kids looked at him. That, to me, is what made him a great man.
Warwick F:
And so it’s that model of faith and how people should be treated, it’s certainly influenced generations of my family. And for me, when I came to my own faith journey, came to faith in Christ, it was really, even back then in my 20s, it was more about who he was as a person and how he treated people. There’s a biography of him written in the 1940s that’s sort of a loving portrait and the person it paints him to be is just awe inspiring in terms of character. So that was a model for me and in my own way tried to live it to hopefully pass down to my kids. That’s a legacy of both faith, family, how you treat people with respect.
Warwick F:
Also a sense of humility, which to me, I’m sure he had. Humility is a hugely important value, especially when you come from such wealth as I did. So that sense of just not thinking that you’re better than other people and just respect others. So there was a legacy of character that’s been passed down from him through generations that my wife and I, I think are trying to pass onto our kids. So that’s a legacy that’s lasted… I’m the fifth generation. That’s a legacy that’s lasted five generations.
Gary S:
Six if you obviously weave your children into it. Yeah.
Warwick F:
So you might say, how in the world could I leave a legacy that last five or six generations? A legacy of character can last that long. A family business, well, ours lasted five. Few businesses last that long. No matter how good a job you’ve done, it’s not going to last.
Warwick F:
But character, in some sense, can be eternal. Character, the values, that can be passed on from generation to generation. From an economic perspective, that’s a better investment. Character. It’s going to last a lot longer. So yeah, it’s had a huge impact.
Gary S:
One of the things I keep thinking about as we talk about this and we’re getting to the point where we’ve got to land the plane soon. The landing gear is down. But I want to hit this point because we talk a lot at Crucible Leadership. You, Warwick, are the author of this sentiment as it applies to Crucible Leadership. You talk a lot about living a life of significance and Crucible Leadership is about ways in which you can recover from crucible moments, learn the lessons, discover how you’re designed and how you’ve been refined, what your vision is so that you can point yourself toward a life of significance. But it strikes me that what we’re talking about here in legacy, if the end result of Crucible Leadership on Earth is to have lived a life of significance, is it fair to say that where we should aim our legacy is to be a legacy of significance? Is that fair?
Warwick F:
It is because when we talk about a life of significance, it’s a life lived on purpose in some sense, a higher purpose however you define it, that’s devoted to helping others. And so a legacy of significance, it’s one where you’re remembered as somebody that’s focused on other people. You’re kind, you’re humble, you want the best for your spouse and your kids and your friends. You’re a giving selfless person. So whether it’s at work or at home, that sense of significance, a life, not devoted to your own ego or own aggrandizement of riches, power and money, but more a life dedicated to the service of others. That kind of life of significance will leave a lasting legacy, a legacy of significance. If you live a life of significance, you have a much greater chance of having a legacy that you’ll be proud of. And a legacy that will last.
Gary S:
Well, as the copilot of this plane that we’re about to land, I’m going to take the liberty of addressing the passengers on the plane as we close up. I found on Inc Magazine, for those of you listeners who are saying, “Okay, this all sounds great. How do I do it? What are some things I can do?” Warwick talked about, your family needs to be a priority, but here are five practical tips that Inc Magazine, which is a business magazine, offered for leaders that are also applicable to all of us every day.
Gary S:
But here’s five things that you can do to leave a meaningful legacy just very quickly. One, prioritize people over results. Two, invest your time and money, and they put time first. Invest your time in people invest your time in things that you care about. Three, I love this one. Connect in person. In this day and age, we spend so much time connecting electronically. We’re grateful that we have the opportunity to connect electronically with you, listener. But in your lives, connect in person. Warwick talked about it, about your family, about your friends, connect in person, make time for that.
Gary S:
Another thing that Inc suggested was to model behavior that you want to last. Do the things in your life that you want to be remembered for. Do the things in your life that you want people to follow. Create disciples in that sense. Be a mentor to someone in that sense. Those are just five very practical takeaway steps as you’re looking at this idea of legacy. You’re looking to lead a life of significance out of your crucible moment. How then do you make sure that in addition to doing that, you’re also leaving a legacy of significance? Those are just four things that one publication, Inc Magazine, suggested.
Warwick F:
What’s interesting to me about that is some people might say, “Okay, is he saying I can’t pursue success and I got to care about coworkers, friends, and family?” Well, if you listen carefully, those points at Inc Magazine, the reality is if you treat your employees and your coworkers well, they’re more likely to work harder to stay. You’ll attract the best and the brightest. Who wants to work for somebody that cheats, steals or takes all the adulation for them, brow beats them, treats them badly? Those who have a choice leave. The best and the brightest, they’re the first ones to go and say, “Forget this.”
Warwick F:
So treating people well with care and respect actually makes good business sense. So the bottom line is by caring for your family, treating them well, loving, respecting them, respecting coworkers, leaving a legacy that you’d be proud of, that you will be remembered by. You might just find, maybe you want to have some multimillion dollar business, but whatever you’re doing it will probably have done better than if you had lived a life differently.
Warwick F:
So the bottom line is commercial success and treating people well and leaving a legacy that you’d be proud of, those two things, rather than being against each other, I think at least in some sense, one can support the other. It’s not either or. So I think what that Inc Magazine says is really very telling.
Gary S:
Well a wise co-pilot knows when to let the pilot have the last word when it’s a good last word. So we’re going to sign off now and we’re going to thank you listeners for joining us on Beyond The Crucible. If you found this discussion insightful and helpful as you pursue not only a life of significance but hopefully a legacy of significance, we have a favor to ask that will help us help more people just like you who are seeking a way to move beyond their crucible experiences. Here’s the idea. Very simple. Here’s the favor. Please subscribe to Beyond The Crucible on the app that you’re listening to right now. It will allow you to make sure you don’t miss an episode and it will make it easier for others to find us, listen to us and share the podcast with their friends and coworkers.
Gary S:
And if you’ve heard anything today that you’d like to learn more about, we encourage you to visit us on the web CrucibleLeadership.com. And one of the things that you can do there as you begin to walk out, as you continue to walk out this path toward a life of significance, a legacy of significance, one of the things you’ll find there is a free short assessment that will allow you to see where you are, give you insight to where you are on this road from crucible experience on one end to life of significance, legacy of significance, on the other. Visit CrucibleLeadership.com and you’ll be able to take this assessment for no cost and really jumpstart your quest for a life of significance.
Gary S:
So until the next time that we’re together, do remember that crucible experiences can be painful. They can feel like your entire world has collapsed in upon you. But the good news is, as Warwick proven himself and as Crucible Leadership talks about, those crucible experiences aren’t the end of your story. Those crucible experiences can actually be the beginning of a new chapter in your story that leads to something phenomenal, a life of significance and a legacy of significance.
Robert Krantz appeared in some of the top films of the ’80s — Back to the Future, anyone? — but when he turned his attention and talents to writing, directing and starring in his own movies a decade later, his career and life began to unspool like a dropped film reel. His first production — which he and his wife put so much money into they had to live with his mother — had the makings of a hit but never took off because of a disastrous Hollywood screening. That professional setback was followed by an even more devastating personal crucible: his wife’s diagnosis that threatened the lives of her unborn triplet sons. The boys not only survived but thrived, and Krantz put his film career on hold to be truly present as they grew. Now that they’re in college, he’s back behind and in front of the camera with the critically acclaimed Faith, Hope & Love, in which he stars as a man whose up-and-down life looks a lot like his own. In this episode, Krantz talks with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax about where he’s found the strength to keep pursuing a life of significance and what he wants his legacy to be as a man and a maker of movies.
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Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome, everybody, to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. You are listening to a podcast that offers hope and healing for folks who have been through what we like to call crucible experiences, those painful things that can happen to you, be they failures, setbacks, tragedies, those things that change the trajectory of your life, that cause pain in your life and lead you to have a different life, a different perspective after those things happen. Our goal in talking about these things is not to wallow in them, not to camp on them, but is truly to look at them as ways we can learn about ourselves, learn about the path that we’re on, then chart a course to a life of significance.
Gary S:
Here with me, as always, is the host of the program and the founder of Crucible Leadership, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we’ve got a very interesting episode today.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. Looking forward to it.
Gary S:
Our guest today is Robert Krantz and we’re going to get talking to Robert in a minute, but before that, let me tell you a little bit about Robert Krantz. Robert Krantz is a Greek American. His name was shortened from Karountzose by his grandparents. Robert graduated from USC’s film school and has acted in some of the most successful movies, like Back to the Future and The Woman in Red, TV movies, the Billionaires Boys Club and Onassis, and sitcoms like Who’s the Boss and Silver Spoons. He has also sold his original screenplays to Sony, Fox, and Columbia Pictures. Additionally, Krantz produced, wrote, and starred in the award-winning, Do You Wanna Dance and Christmas with the Karountzoses. He has written several best-selling books, Falling in Love with Sophia, Guide to the Divine Liturgy, and Guide to Holy Week.
Gary S:
Krantz is also the owner of Ellinas Multimedia, the largest production and distribution company of Greek media in the United States. Most recently, he wrote, produced, directed, and starred, the shorthand version of that is he Alan Alda’d, Faith, Hope and Love, a film for which he received nominations for best screenplay, best picture, best actor, and one for best director from the International Christian Film Festival. His next film is going to be the movie adaptation of his book, Falling in Love with Sophia. Krantz lives in Southern California with his wife, Tricia. They have triplet sons, Chris, George and Nick. Chris and George attend the University of Chicago and Nick attends Washington University in St. Louis.
Gary S:
Robert, let me begin by saying that Warwick and I both had the opportunity just over the weekend, before we recorded this, to watch Faith, Hope and Love. I actually had seen it before. I, believe it or not, did publicity work for it, even though we didn’t know each other, I did publicity work for it when it came out earlier in 2019, but we watched it again. Warwick, you in particular, and your family, loved it.
Warwick F:
We did, yeah. It was just an amazing movie and we watched it over the weekend with my wife and two of my three kids who are in their 20s, a daughter and a son. It’s unusual to get a movie that everybody likes because normally, guys like action movies and maybe my daughter might want less of an action movie, a bit more sentimental, but they all loved it. What I liked is it was heartwarming, it was funny, there was amazing dancing. I mean, obviously, Peta, you would expect from Dancing on the Stars that she’d be good, but you were pretty good, too, so that was impressive, Robert. I really… and what I loved is-
Robert K:
Oh, thank you. I appreciate it.
Warwick F:
… it’s nice when the co-star, as I like to say, doesn’t have an accent. She’s from Australia, so she talks like me. I didn’t need simultaneous translation. I got it, so she was amazing. I just loved it and-
Robert K:
Great.
Warwick F:
… we’ll talk more about that movie in a bit, but yeah, we would like to start as just a bit about your story and, in particular, I know you’ve had a couple different crucible experiences and, yeah, just tell us a little bit about your story and some of the challenges.
Robert K:
It’s funny, I was telling Gary that I’ve had so many of them and I just kind of accepted that’s just life. I was telling my wife recently, I was listing off many of them and I was saying to her, “God has been there every step of the way. Every time I’ve gotten knocked down, he’s been there to pick me back up.” She said, “That’s an interesting way you look at it because other people would look at it like God knocked them down.” I never felt that and I’m going to mention one smaller one, but it had a profound impact on me, before I get to the larger one.
Robert K:
The smaller one, I was actually 12-years-old and I was in the summer. I think my parents, in retrospect, both my parents have passed away, so I can’t ask them, but I think they were going through some marital problems and they went to Greece. I think they were trying to get away from the kids, so to speak, because there was three of us and I’m sure we were a handful. My dad was busy with work, so when my mom went to Greece first, he was going to join her, but he was so busy with work that he had my brother and I go and stay at my grandparent’s house. They were Greek immigrants, and just to give you a perspective, there was no washing machine, there was no air conditioning, it was the dead of summer, and I remember at the time I don’t think I understood it, but it just kind of felt like we were abandoned for two or three months. My grandparents didn’t speak that much English and I remember sitting around doing nothing for two months.
Robert K:
When school began, the basketball tryouts began. My brother, who was a year or so older than me, was the star of the team I think in ninth grade, I was going into eighth grade. I remember trying out for the team. I can remember the shoes I wore, I can remember the gym bag I had, everything, because on the last day, I was the last guy to get cut. I remember walking across that floor and you think something like that, well, you’d get over it, whatever, but it was such a crushing moment and that night I went out with my two friends who were two of the best players on the team and made the team. We went to a Milwaukee Bucks basketball game, I grew up in Wisconsin, and the next morning they were having anyone who wanted to volunteer to be a manager. In other words, the guy that got the team water, the guy that got the team towels, all that stuff, could volunteer. I showed up and I remember it when my coach showed up in the door, he said, “I had a feeling you were going to be here.”
Robert K:
My mom years and years and years later, there was one picture of me as a manager and I was spinning a basketball on my finger in the locker room. She would always tell me, “That’s my favorite picture of you.” I never really understood it, but really? Why that one? Because it was a defining moment for me. From that moment on, it was humbling being around your best friends and getting water and towels and all that sort of stuff, but from that moment on, I began to work as hard as I could to become as good of basketball player as I could. I realized two things out of this experience. Number one, when I had children, I would never let them out of my eyesight. Now, obviously, they’re going to go off and do their thing, but I can tell you almost to this day, our children are 21 and they’re in college, but I cannot remember my wife and I taking a vacation without them in 21 years.
Robert K:
My parents did a lot of things right, but that was one thing that was just an… Unfortunately, there was some other repercussions that other members of my family, that things didn’t go good and it taught me you have to have those children… and I’ve always said to my children, even until they went to University of Chicago and St. Louis, it was a running joke in our family, I said, “If there’s a problem, I’ll be there in 15 minutes.” I’ve held true to that. Whenever there’s a problem, there was a crisis yesterday with one of my kids and I was on that phone immediately with him. That was one part and then the second part I learned is, you have to work your tail off to be successful at something. I think I’ve had that chip on my shoulder ever since that day.
Robert K:
I ended up the next year making the team. The year after that, becoming a starter. Then, by my senior year, I ended up becoming the captain of our team that went to the state tournament. Never that good a player, although I would love to tell you I was okay, but where I got exceeded my talent and I think that that moment… in fact, if you see our movie, Christmas with the Karountzoses, you’ll hear me talk about it in that movie in a certain scene. That defined me because from that moment in my life, I have had to work my tail off for everything. As I got into the film, I didn’t have a sibling or a parent or anybody in this business… for years, it never made sense to me. I’ll segue into the second one here because you’ll see how they kind of all come together.
Warwick F:
Actually, just before you get into second one, I mean, this is such a great story. It may not be as, in some sense, obviously, as searing as some of the ones that are coming up, but what’s interesting is this is a microcosm of the opportunity that a crucible experience can be. Here you are, in eighth grade. You get cut, the last one. It may not seem that big today, but at the time, in eighth grade you’re cut, that’s huge. All your buddies are on the team and it would have been easy for you to say, “Hey, this if unfair. I’ve been abandoned by my parents for two months. I mean, what is the deal here?” It would be easy for you to be angry. You, obviously, weren’t happy, but you said, “Okay.” You humbled yourself to be a manager, you’ve worked your tail off and got on the team and became captain. I mean, that’s sort of a microcosm of not letting a crucible experience define you and saying, “Okay, I didn’t like this, but I’m going to bounce back from it.”
Warwick F:
It’s a microcosm of… I won’t say the perfect way to approach a crucible experience, but feels kind of. You know? It’s a little vignette, but it’s a powerful story, so just want the listeners to see in that small example about the power of not letting a setback define you and you didn’t let it define you. That’s truly impressive, so anyway.
Robert K:
Yeah, thank you. What happened, as I was saying, when I got into the film business it made absolutely no sense to me. I mean, my parents, my dad was a business person, my mom was a stay-at-home mom. Being from Wisconsin and coming into the film business, there was no allure, it’s not like if you live in Los Angeles where there is immediacy to it. I had graduated high school and I remember I was at a church summer camp. There was a lady there Faye Colster and I was at the camp and we were walking, just the two of us, and I said, “Faye, I think that God’s calling me to go into this field, into the film…” and Faye was one of those people that you just knew was a great Christian. She was just wonderful. I thought for sure she’d say, “Oh, my God. Robert, let’s talk about this.” She kind of just turned and started laughing and she turned around and she could see I was serious. She said, “Well, then let’s pray about it.” She said, “God, if…”
Robert K:
First of all, when she said that, I thought, “Oh, my God. If my buddy, Teddy, walks around the corner, I’m going to die.” What were you and Faye doing walking? She prayed and she said, “God, if this is what you want for Robert’s life, clear a path for him,” and that was it. That was the prayer. The irony was or the punchline to that story was decades later I saw Faye when we were screening Faith, Hope and Love. She was at a screening and I said, “Faye, do you remember that?” She said, “I remember like it was yesterday.” That was a pivotal moment.
Gary S:
Those two stories are a great organizing construct for where the conversation’s going to go next, I think. Your story about being in eighth grade and not making the team and the separation from your parents and feeling alone. Then, that led to your resolve to not leave your kids alone, to always be there for them. As you tell your next crucible stories, that’s going to show up.
Gary S:
This other one, about God called you to the film industry and when you hit some rocky roads there, that was tested. What I love about those two stories right there is Warwick and I have talked to a number of people about their crucible experiences, but yours, Robert, are kind of like crucibles squared. As you tell your stories, the listener will hear that pretty much the same time you had a professional crucible and a personal crucible sort of crash into each other. I’ll turn it over to you now to tell those stories, but it really is a fresh perspective we haven’t had on this show yet of a crucible squared.
Robert K:
Yeah. What happened was I moved out to California, and I went to Arizona State for two years, and then I got work as a PA on a movie called Nightkill with Robert Mitchum.
Gary S:
PA, just for the record, was a production assistant.
Robert K:
Yeah. I’ll tell you, that taught me… I will always when I’m on a set now with the PA’s, I will always treat them with the utmost respect because that’s how I started out, working for free. Anyway, at the end I thought, well, where do I go from here? I went to USC’s film school. How I got in there was a miracle in itself and I was the luckiest guy in the world, but I got in there and I remember on the first day of filming they said, “Okay, anybody have any questions?” All these kids were doing tracking shots and valley shots and all this stuff, and I thought, oh, my gosh, this is going to be rough, but I’ve got to bite the bullet, and I said, “I don’t know how to focus the camera.”
Robert K:
The entire room just died and I’ll never forget, that teacher, he addressed me like it was the most poignant question anyone had ever asked. Mel Sloan, I can still remember him, God bless him, and I was off and running. I ended up getting the highest grade in the class because they graded you on so far down it was like, okay, but I was obsessed with it and I just worked and worked and worked at it. It came a point where I was studying acting at night, I was studying writing and producing during the day, but there came a point when I had to jump off and say, “Is this what I’m supposed to do?”
Robert K:
I went to a church, St. Sophia’s in downtown Los Angeles and I was alone. This will tie into the crucible moment at the end, I said, “God, I don’t know why. This doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t know why, but I think this is what you’re calling me to do with my life and I’m worried it’s my ego and I don’t want that to be the case. If it’s the case, stop me at any point, from the moment I get out of here, do whatever you need to do to stop me, but I think this is what you’re calling me to do.” I remember sometime around then telling my mother, “Mom, I think I’m supposed to make these…” at the time, this was in the 80s, “… these faith-based films.” She told me years later, I remember it, she said, “I thought to myself where are you going with that?” I don’t blame her for thinking that, but I just felt that what was happening.
Robert K:
I then started, it was about 10 to 12 years of Back to the Future, Who’s the Boss, all those sort of things. This was not an easy ride. This was a, if you’re on a plane and there’s turbulence the whole route, it was turbulence the whole way. It was hard, hard work and I was constantly wondering, am I supposed to do this, is this what it’s supposed to be, etcetera, and it led up to a moment where I made a movie. I had seen Spike Lee’s, She’s Gotta Have It, and with The Brothers McMullen, and I thought, I think this is what I’m supposed to do is to write, produce, and act in a film.
Robert K:
I wrote a film. There was a priest named Father Chris Hullis who had a significant impact in my life. I was going through a really tough time in my mid to late 20s and I told him one day. I said, “I’m going to make a movie about our friendship.” I ended up making this film called Do You Wanna Dance, which is basically a guy, myself, a dance instructor, gets in trouble with the law and ends up having to teach a bunch senior citizens how to dance, so they can stay in shape as his community service instead of going to jail.
Robert K:
We put everything, I mean, everything under the sun that we had, to the point that we had to move in with my mother. My wife and I, we’d gotten married and we had it all riding on this. We flew to Chicago for a test screening for a thousand people and it was this huge auditorium. I had tested the film in groups of 20-30 people, but this was going to tell me, because he next night we were screening it for the studios, all the studios, and Chris Columbus from Home Alone was a fan of the screenplay, had seen the movie, and said, “Look, I’m all in. I love this movie. You did a great job and I’m going to come and introduce the film to the studios when you come on Saturday night.” Friday night we were screening it in Chicago.
Robert K:
We screened it in Chicago, a thousand people plus. They had to call the fire warden because it was so oversold, and it was the first time I’d ever seen a movie that I had written get a reaction. I remember at one of the most pivotal parts, I started hearing some people sniffing and coughing or something and I’m thinking, “Oh, you’re ruining it all of you who are sniffing,” never realizing that people were crying, that what was on screen was really making people cry. Never thought I’d have that effect on people whatever I wrote or did. When I got up on stage afterwards, there was about a five to 10-minute standing ovation and I just was stunned. I didn’t anticipate that at all. I remember I was going on stage; I could see it out of the corner of my eye and I remember thinking, holy man, we knew we had a hit film, there was no doubt. You can’t get people to react that way and it was just… afterwards it was just a mob scene, it was great.
Robert K:
We go to Westwood the next day, we fly with the film. I think we had one copy of the film, that’s all we could afford, and I had Dolby come in. I left nothing to chance. I had Dolby come in and check every speaker in the theater in Westwood, went up to the booth ahead of time and I said to the guy, the projectionist, “Hey, it’s going to be a lot of people and make sure you have the sound.” Said, “Mr. Krantz, you can come up here as many times as you want. It’s all good.” You could tell I was a nervous Nelly and he was totally calm. We sat down. Chris Columbus introduced the film. The film starts and about 10 minutes into the film, one of the characters was speaking. I don’t know if it was me or one of the other characters and it started to warble. I just remember thinking, “Oh, my God.” I’d heard the film so many times, I thought, what is that? I thought I was having a stroke at first.
Robert K:
Then, my wife squeezed my hand and I thought, well, we’re probably both not having strokes at the same time, so there’s a problem here. I learned a lesson. If it’s your movie, never sit in the middle of a theater because I knew something horrible was happening. Everyone around me started knowing something horrible was happening. I got up and I thought, this just can’t be. This was right in the beginning of the film. I ran up to the projectionist booth and every one of the people that was involved in the film was up there and the projectionist who had been so calm was in absolute panic. I said, “What’s happening?” He said the light bulb that projects through the film to create the sound was wearing out. He said, “I don’t have another one.” He said, “Can you ask everybody to come back tomorrow?” I said, “Are you crazy? There’s heads of studios down there. I’m lucky I got them today.”
Robert K:
It was absolute chaos and then somehow, somebody found a bulb, but I remember we were about halfway through the film at that point. Oh, it’s just painful to even think about it now. I had rehearsed two or three years preparing for the dance portion of that film and I remember looking down and it was the dance solo that I did in that film. I had looked so forward to that moment being in the audience and here I was up in the projectionist booth. We had a time when something paused in the film for him to put in the new light bulb. I missed all that and I remember sitting down and I think I went to cry or something and nothing came out. I had nothing left to give. I had put everything into that, my heart and soul, so I went back downstairs and I thought maybe it wasn’t as bad as I thought. One of our investors came walking around the corner. I look at him and I said, “George.” He said, “What the blank’s up with this film?” I went, “Oh, boy. We’re in trouble.”
Robert K:
Long story short, the studio started passing on it. They thought the film had been made poorly. It had nothing to do with how the film was made. It was just this stupid light bulb and I think for two or three days, I don’t remember sleeping much at all. It just didn’t make sense to me. Here, we were trying to make a film that was ahead of that whole faith-based movement and you’re trying to do something good to promote God and so forth, and we just got nailed. I mean, nailed. This wasn’t even… Weeks were going by and it was Good Friday. I thought… Oh, I was leaving to go to Good Friday services and my wife and I had no money. We had no money and I remember going to the service. I was about to leave and the phone rang. Mike Bremer called me. I thought, uh, this is it, this is the moment, this is the story, you’re going to Good Friday and the call comes in and we want to buy your film. He said, I think it was Columbia, Disney, and Paramount all passed, and that was it.
Robert K:
I remember going to church and being just livid. I thought, could you have timed that any worse, God? Could you have timed it… couldn’t you have let me go to church and come back and… I don’t know. I just thought… and I just was so just crushed sitting in church. That’s when everyone around you starts looking at you, thinking like good dream, but best of luck. A couple of weeks went by and everyone starting telling me, “Move on with your life. You did your dream, you made your film, move on with your life.” Right around then, there was a company called Largo that called up Mike and said, “We couldn’t make it that night. Can you send us a screener?”
Robert K:
They sent this screener over, they watched it. I’ll never forget what they said. They said, “We’re ringing our hands and we’re going to let you know.” I went back to our house, my mom’s house, I kneeled down and I prayed and I said, “God, I can’t go on anymore. I thought that you and I had gone over this and had an agreement, it was 10 years earlier when I was in that church that this was what I was supposed to do with my life. I’ve put in all this time and energy and I know I told you if this isn’t meant to be, stop it. Maybe you’re stopping it.” I said, “If you are, if they come back and say no, I’m going to move on with my life and do something else.” I hate the last part of it, but it’s the truth. I said, “But you’re going to have an angry son on your hands.” That was the truth, that’s how I felt.
Robert K:
I got up. Everyone in my life was telling me move on, except three people, my mom, my best-friend Gary, and my sister were telling me don’t quit. I went, I think, to the store or something and the phone rang. I picked up; it was Mike. I said, “What’s up.” He said, “Do we have a lawyer?” I said, “I don’t know. Why? Who’s asking?” He goes, “It’s Largo.” I go, “What does that mean do we have a lawyer?” He goes, “Don’t look up, don’t look down. I think they’re going to buy the foreign rights to the film,” and they did. They took it to Cannes, they flew my wife and I to Cannes, and the way these stories go, you think like, ah, there it is, there’s the beautiful moment. I’m telling you, it was one bumpy ride after another.
Robert K:
We got to Cannes, and I remember Peter walked in, Peter Elson foreign sales and he said, “Do you like the sight of blood?” I what? He goes, “Because your film is bleeding. We’re not selling it that much.” They sold enough to do one thing, to license the rights of the music to the film, which meant we now could sell it. There was no advance, they gave us no money, but they sold the rights… they bought the rights to the music. I’m thinking, “Okay, I don’t know what that means, but all right, we live for another day.” My wife and I get on the plane and we’re flying back and I remember at one point I saw the low budget director, Gary… I can’t remember his name. The guy that all those low budget films, with Ron Howard and so forth. I remember my wife, I was trying to tell her and she was doing sit ups. She kept saying, “Oh, I’m having stomach pains. I’m having stomach pains.”
Robert K:
We got back home, the ride was rocky as can be, I almost lost my ticket getting on the plane, it was just one problem after another. I see my mom and I’m like, “Hey, Mom, this is how it went.” My wife goes behind my mother and she keeps going like this… I go, “yeah, yeah, I’m glad, I hope you’re feeling better.” She’s like that, and finally I go, “What is it?” She goes, “I took a pregnancy test, I’m pregnant.” It was three weeks later, I come home, there’s an ambulance outside the house and I’m thinking, “Oh, my God.” Either way it’s going to be bad news because my mom was older, my wife I knew was pregnant. I see my wife in the ambulance, we go to the emergency room and we’re looking at this monitor. I thought, okay, maybe we lost the child or something happened. It turned out she flipped an ovary, which was excruciatingly painful. As we’re looking at the monitor, I see these two sacs and I’m staring at them and I’m thinking… it’s just the doctor and my wife and I, I’m not going to say what I’m thinking because it looks like two and I’m thinking, “I’m not ready for that.”
Robert K:
Finally, after five minutes I go, “Is that two, like two children?” He goes, “Oh, yeah, yeah. It’s definitely twins,” and he scrolls over, but I’m trying to figure out what this is here. Sure enough, it was a third child, it was triplets. Now, when I go and do public speaking, I always pause at this moment because I go, “Look, I know what you’re thinking. Has this story got a good ending?” Because I had a film that nobody wanted, I had three kids on the way, I was in debt because of this film, and I’m living with my mom and it was all just caving in, but the next part became even harder. At 12 weeks, we went to see the doctor. My wife could tell right away, she says, “Something’s wrong.” I said, “No, no, they’re just talking,” this and that. He came back in and he said, “Tricia, you’re going into labor,” and it was 12 weeks. I can remember, he performed what they call a cerclage, which stopped it, but we were in serious trouble and this was before the… right in the cusp of the internet taking off, so you couldn’t go on the internet and get information. It was right on the cusp of that.
Robert K:
I remember the doctor, who was a very kind man, he sent me home with a pamphlet and he said, “You’re an excellent candidate for reduction.” I was so excited because I was not an excellent candidate for anything at that point in my life. I remember thinking, I wonder what that means? Maybe you get a discount for something or I didn’t know. I went home and I started reading the pamphlet and reduction meant to abort one or two of the children, that’s what they were telling us they thought we should do. I went and talked to my wife, both of us were crying. She’s petite, she’s 5’3″, maybe 105 pounds, we knew nothing about this and I remember after I began to read what they do during the abortion, I thought, I just can’t do that. I just, I can’t do that. Maybe others can, but I’d rather live with the consequences of whatever happened when we had the children or whatever happened.
Robert K:
My wife and I talked and talked about it. At one point, every couple of weeks we’d keep coming back to the emergency room because her body kept reacting as though it was going to go into labor. They put her on total and absolute, complete bedrest. I read a book about this thing called Gurus Diet and that diet made her put on 60 pounds. Then, we told the doctor, “We’re going to try to have all three.” He said, “You can’t leave bedrest. It’s just going to be so hard for Tricia to do this.” She had a belt on and this belt kept going of an into the emergency room we’d go. Finally, he said, “Look, you two, I’m telling you,” I think we’re about 17-18 weeks, he said, “I’m not worried about your three children dying. You guys are worried about them dying. What I’m telling you is, you’re going to give birth to three invalids and you will get divorced and your marriage will be over and your lives will change forever.”
Robert K:
I remember crying on the ride home. I was by myself and I remember saying, “God, please just give me any sign.” It was… even talking about it now, it’s difficult. It was the hardest moment of my life because I couldn’t work my way out of it. I couldn’t work extra hours, I just couldn’t do anything other than pray and say, “God, I need your help, so I’ve cut this film that nobody wants, I’ve got a wife that’s on bedrest, I’m about to lose or have three invalids,” and at the end, we told the doctor, “Look, we’re going to go and whatever happens, happens.” We said, “We’re not going to abort any of the children.”
Robert K:
I think it was about 17, 18, 20 weeks and the doctor, he had all these patients that would come in, they were multiples, but they were doing so great. They came walking in. My wife, they had to put on a gurney and bring her in. Every week, you thought, this is it. We can’t go beyond 23, so boy, if you could just hang in, this is where the cells in the brain form. Then, next week, well this is where the hearing forms. We were just stumbling along and then finally, I think she got to about 29 weeks and he turned to my wife and he said, “If you come back in one more time, I’m going to tell you, you have got to abort.”
Robert K:
Sure enough, on the day he told us, this is the day, I think it was Labor Day, that buzzer went off one more time. In we came and I remember I was in the hospital and my wife came out of the hospital bathroom and this doctor came in, he was 6’3″ and she looked up at him, she said… she put her hand up and she goes, “I don’t care what you have to say, I’m not giving up on those kids, so if you’re coming in here to tell me to abort, the answer’s no, and you can leave.” He started laughing. He started laughing and he said, “Okay, we’ll try and finish this.” About two weeks later, I think it was 30-31 weeks, he said to my wife, “I’ve been wrong every week. Why don’t you just tell me when you’re going to give birth and I’ll show up.”
Robert K:
She told him, December 20, 1998 was her grandmother’s birthday and she said, “That’s the date and that’s the day those kids were born.” It was 35 weeks, I believe. It changed my life completely because when those kids were born, they were baptized. I remember at the end of the baptism, they were in my in laws home and I took each one of them, we were in the back room, and I held each one up in my arms to God and I said, “They’re yours now.” I said, “I’m going to be the best father I can be and I will never forget this moment.” I committed myself to those three boys, mind, body, spirit, everything I’ve had, I’ve put into those boys because I’m convinced that they’re going to do some good in this world. God put them here with a purpose and I never wanted to meet my creator and have him say to me, “Boy, did you forget. You forgot how much you wanted those kids.”
Robert K:
I tell you, they put me through the ringer. There were moments where I’m like, oh, you guys make this tough, man. I love you, but you’re killing me, but that was the defining moment and then, to tie it in with the professional, so you guys will get a kick out of this. Right before the kids were born, Largo, the guys were handling the foreign, the film, came back and said, “Great news. Columbia’s going to buy the picture. They’re taking it as a package deal. They’re taking two of our other films.” Mike called up his friend, Peter Nelson worked at Columbia, and Peter said, “Mike, it’s going to be wonderful. You’re going to tell all your friends the films at Columbia, you’re not going to make a dime off of this.” I went, “What are we doing that for?” He goes, “Look, just move on.” I’m like, “No, I’ve got a wife on bedrest over here. We’ve got to get going here.”
Robert K:
I opened up this paper called the Orthodox Observer and it goes out to all the Greeks. In it, there was a take called Cooking with Yaya, Cooking with Grandma in the Kitchen. I looked at it and I said, “Man, if they’re selling that, I can sell my little movie.” I called up Largo and I’m like, “Hey, you know what? I think I’m going to do this myself. I’m going to start my own company called Ellinas Multimedia,” and I’ll never forget their response. “Bob, if you were here, we would hang you out the window by your thumbs. This is the stupidest thing you’ve ever done.”
Robert K:
Everyone told me it’s the stupidest thing. Everybody. Another friend who’s very close to me said, “Okay, you sell it to your 10 Greek friends, then what?” I remember there was a friend, Nick Larigakis was at an event in Los Angeles. I had lunch with him. He said, “Bob, bring some of your videos to this event,” and I said, “Nick, nobody knows me. Nobody knows me.” He said, “Just bring it.” I said to my wife, “Do you think I should go?” She was on bedrest at the time. She said, “There’s a box by the washer and dryer, fill it up with videos and see what happens.” I pack up 20 videos in this box, carry it in, open up the box, put the videos out on the thing, write down $19.95 on the sign. Nick comes by, he’s like, “What do you mean? We’re going to give change? That’s $20, just put $20.” I said, “Oh, right, yeah. Right, $20”
Robert K:
A guy walks up the minute I open the box and he hands me a bill. “Sorry, I don’t have change for a hundred.” “What are you saying? It’s a $20.” It had been so long since I’d seen money, they had changed the bill. I went, “Oh, yeah, it’s a $20. I’m sorry, thank you.” I went home to my wife, I walked in, she’s on bed rest, and I walk up to the bed and I take two $20 bills and I put it on the bed. She goes, “All right, $40 we didn’t have.” I put two more things. She goes, “Oh, my gosh, $80?” I took all 20 of the $20 bills and I threw it over the bed. We just went… It was like a million bucks for us and I put it on the counter. Neither one of us could sleep that night because I think we knew, I think we knew that the answer had come and the answer was I ended up starting my own company, Ellinas Multimedia. It was not until… I think I mentioned this to you, Gary.
Gary S:
Yep.
Robert K:
Five year later, I was in my home crossing through the living room and I went, “Oh, okay. That’s what this was all about.” I think what it was, was this. God knew if I sold that movie, I would have stayed up in Los Angeles, I would have probably gone on to the next project, I would have never been the father and perhaps even the husband, too, that I wanted to be. My wife and my children are everything to me. I would give up everything I have for those four people. They always say God knows you better than you know yourself. God knew what was in my heart. I wanted to be a… you’ll see this in the movie, Christmas with the Karountzoses, you’ll hear that there’s a line that I say in there which is, “All I’d ever wanted to be was a great father.” That’s all I wanted to be, and a great husband. I wanted to be the best husband.
Robert K:
I think what God knew is if you sell this film, number one, the money won’t last as long as you think it will, you’ll be jumping from job to job, and I want to tell you, that I’m going to have to slow you down here. It was only five years later, after I started my company, that I looked back and went, “Oh,” moved out of Los Angeles, I’m in Orange County. I was a present father and I ended up starting my own company, but I did not know at that time it would be 15 or 16 years before I would ever be able to act, or write, or produce again because I was committed to my family. Then, when that came about with Christmas with the Karountzoses, just briefly here, and then I’ll be quiet.
Robert K:
My sons were in their sophomore year of high school and I finished the movie in 12 days. When I came home, my son, George, had left a note on the stairs which said, “Are you done yet?” I went upstairs and I told my wife, “I won’t make another movie until they’re in college.” They went into college and then I made Faith, Hope and Love.
Warwick F:
How many years were there between the whole terrible experience with Dance, with that first movie, Do You Wanna Dance, and then Faith, Hope and Love? What was that gap between those two?
Robert K:
Almost 20 years.
Warwick F:
Wow. For most of that time, you were focused on being a dad and-
Robert K:
Completely.
Warwick F:
That is just an incredible story and I really appreciate you sharing. I mean, you’ve got these two searing experiences, you have this great movie that you felt like you knew this was a hit. I mean, the audiences loved it, they cried or they want to cry. I mean, obviously, you don’t want them crying at the funny part. They were crying at the part they were meant to be crying at, so that’s always a positive sign and if not for the light bulb, there’s a pretty fair chance that somebody would have picked it up and maybe the last 20 years could have been very different.
Robert K:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Obviously, even people of faith, I mean, we’re human. I mean, I think you kind of said it a bit, were you like angry and like, this is just so unfair? This was a hit, this is not justice, this is not fair, this is a hit. The audience says it’s a hit.
Robert K:
Not only angry. Crushed, because I wasn’t making a horror film, I wasn’t making a cops and robber. I was making a film that when you watch it glorify God and you’re thinking, wow, I see all these other films coming out and you would think God would give me a little nudge. You know? No, that’s not the plan God had for me.
Warwick F:
That’s kind of amazing because it’s easy for us to think that we know what God’s plan is, is… not to get into this too much, but as listeners know from other podcasts and blogs growing up in a large 150-year-old family media business that was started by as strong a businessman for Christ that’s ever existed, at least in Australia from my perspective in the late 1830s, early 1840s. Here am I, I’m thinking, okay, I’m a believer. Gosh, must be God’s plan to resurrect the company and the ideals of the founder, at least in terms of how people are treated and the ethics and what have you. Then, I do the takeover, $2.25 billion. The company goes under and it’s like, a little bit like you, but just a different vantage point, but Lord, it had to have been your will for me to be in control of this big company because it was founded by a person of faith.
Warwick F:
I mean, like okay, I made dumb mistakes, which is I’ve talked about a lot, but how can this happen? This makes no sense. I thought this was your plan for my life to be in this 150 year old family business. I guess not, so it’s like sometimes we have this thought that, well, surely Lord you need more faith-based, life-enhancing movies. I mean, do you need less? I mean, maybe I’m missing something, but surely this is something that helps the cause. Right? How in the world can you let it happen? I mean, did you fall asleep. I mean, what’s going on here? It’s easy to …
Robert K:
I felt it. I felt that way and it took me a long time, but what I realized as I’ve gone through… you talk about crucible moments, I’ve had so many since then, in between them, but each one, my mother-in-law, two and a half years ago, had a brain aneurism. Survived. Still can’t speak today, but thank God she’s still alive. I lost my mom, my dad, there’s just been so many moments, but I’ve learned to… When Gary and I were first talking about doing this, I remember, I don’t follow podcasts too much, and I remember he said… I don’t know how they rate podcasts or how many viewers, whatever that is, it didn’t matter to me and I’ll tell you why. If there’s one person out there… I was asked a question during the interviews for this movie, and they said, “What do you want this to be about, this movie?” I thought about it for a long time on the air and I finally said, “Hope.”
Robert K:
That’s what I’m doing this for, that’s what I’m doing what we’re doing right now. If there’s a person out there that’s down on their luck, that’s struggling, that doesn’t think their life’s amounting to something, that’s got a kid’s that’s on drugs, that’s upside down on their mortgage, that’s struggling to get through college, that feels like they’re too old and nobody’s paying attention or too young and nobody’s paying… Whatever that is, everything I’m trying to do with my work now is geared toward one thing, that people when they see me, when they see my movies, that they’re given hope. That hope can come just in the form of what you’re watching or it can be even hope from …
Warwick F:
I feel like you’ve lived a life of hope, as we’ll get into in a minute. I think the character in your recent movie, Faith, Hope and Love, the translation of the Greek, the character’s name is Hope, so it was obviously very appropriate, but you could have after that professional debacle, and everybody other than two or three, it helps when your mom and your wife, amongst others, are with you. Then, they said just, “Robert, give it up. This is madness. You’re insane.” Sometimes you’ve got to admit that you’re licked, cry uncle and move on. I mean, that’s almost like the biblical plague. You’ve had about five or six, do you need 20? I mean, how many do you need? Locusts and frogs? I mean, how many signs do you need to give it up. Yet, you just, inner conviction. I think we might think it’s from the divine, others might think it’s some inner voice, whatever you believe, you have the courage to listen to inner voice that said, “Robert, don’t give up.”
Warwick F:
I mean, maybe you’ll have to put it on hiatus for 15-20 years, but the dream’s not going to die. That took courage. I want to get in a little bit into the second crucible, which is… I mean, that is just amazing when the doctor, he was your expert, and they said, “You can’t have these three kids to term. There’s no way they will be anything other than brain damaged, invalid, it makes no sense.” I imagine they probably said your wife’s life could be in danger, I’m guessing that conversation would have happened, and yet, this is a mutual decision obviously, you and your wife.
Warwick F:
To have the courage and conviction to say, we’re not doing that and that kind of epic moment when your wife stood up to that 6’3″ doctor and said, “Don’t even think about saying that we’re going to end this because it’s not happening.” I mean, the courage you both showed there was just incredible. I guess it’s a stupid question, but where’d you get that kind of courage to basically ignore all professional medical advice?
Robert K:
To tell you the truth, whenever I speak about this, I always say when it came to that moment, please don’t think for a second that my wife and I said no, that we were scared to death, scared to death. I almost hesitate to say courage. We were scared to death. Since that moment, I’ve heard four or five cases, almost once very year about triplets that were born deaf, blind, triplets that were born and one or two died. Man, I don’t even want to take any credit for that moment. I just don’t, I don’t feel comfortable with it because I just know I was shaking in my boots when we made that decision. I’ll tell you, if there was one moment, conversation, that impacted it, it was this.
Robert K:
The priest that I made Do You Wanna Dance with, I was talking to him years before this and I asked him a question, we were talking about abortion. This was years before any of this happened. I said, “Well, you know,” he was against abortion, I said, “Why?” He goes, his wife’s name is Maria because priests can get married if you get married before you become a priest. He said, “We would have a kid,” and I said, “Why?” He said, and this was the answer, “Because our marriage could survive it if something went wrong.” I remember thinking, my wife and I, I just felt that we could survive it and whatever God gave us, we would survive it. It would be hard, it would be tough, but I felt like we could survive it. By the way, oh, he actually worked, this is one other piece that I’m glad you brought this up because it’s significant.
Robert K:
That moment when I went into the church and I prayed, I said, “God, I don’t know why you put this on my heart, but I think this is what you want me to do with my life,” before I left the church that day, I said, “The next time I’m going to come back like this is when I find the woman that I want to marry and when I find whoever that is, I’m going to come back and I’m going to ask her in this church, in front of you.” I didn’t think that much of that to tell you the truth. I just know I meant it. When I met my wife 10 years later and we dated for I think a year or so, I knew that she was the one and I brought her back to that church. I proposed to her and I told her the story.
Robert K:
The funny thing is, I got to the part of the story, I said, “Then I told God that I’d bring my wife back,” and she’s staring at me and I thought, oh, I never … in my mind. I started the story from the beginning and repeated it. She went like… and I went the ring, the ring, yeah, the ring. I also didn’t realize how small those booths were. My butt kind of got stuck when I had to get down on one knee, but years went by, after all of these difficult times, the great recession, and the children, one of our kids had scoliosis, the mother-in-law who had an aneurism, the death of my grandma, my father, my mother, so much had happened.
Robert K:
For the longest time, we’ve been married I think what, almost 26 years now, and I, for the longest time I thought, boy, I really was a good judge of character. I think up until about 25 years I thought, man, I was… boy, I really was… and then it started to dawn on me, there’s no way in two years of dating or whatever it was, now, it wasn’t my judge of my character. Yeah, I’m sure that played something into it, but what I realized was the significant impact of going in front of God and saying, “When I find her, I’m bringing her back and ask her to marry me in front of God.” I think that meant so much to God.
Robert K:
The reason why I feel that way is because when my children turned 21, they’re the age I was when I went in there and I thought, man, if one of my kids did that, first of all, it would just shock me and then I would think, wow, that’s really something at 21 to go in and say that in front of God. I think that was, also all of these things this crucible moment came in …
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, it’s that sense of honoring the Lord with your marriage and it’s just saying, “God, you show me the sign, I want to follow you.” I mean, you honor him, he’ll honor you. Now, I do want to talk about Faith, Hope and Love, but I want just for the listeners who are listening, thinking, well, how did this guy survive? How is he not in some asylum or something? I mean, how is he even vaguely sane after the thing with the movie and then the triplets. I mean, they did survive, but could have taken 50 years off your life or age you or something. How did you bounce back from those experiences? I mean, you’ve got this great movie coming out, but it’s not like I’m sure life is just all so easy and it’s just been like living at Disney World every day. I mean, it’s probably still challenging, so for the listener-
Robert K:
No-
Warwick F:
… how did you get beyond those two very challenging circumstances and not let it define your whole life and be bitter and angry and I don’t know what?
Robert K:
To add to your point there, even the release of this film, along the way everyone told me don’t put it in movie theaters. You’re going to regret it. We opened it in 40 cities over a period of three months. People told me when we went to the premier, do not have it. There was one meeting I went to and this one manager told me, “Do not have it in that theater. You will regret it. It’s 850 seats and,” he said, “you’re going to get a couple hundred people in there and you’re going to be embarrassed and you’re going to embarrass everybody else.”
Robert K:
I got in the car and was driving back home, and I could literally… I could literally feel God laughing next to me. Saying, now, let me get this right. I walked on water, rose from the dead, healed the deaf, the blind, the dumb, but you don’t think I can fill that theater, Bob. Is that kind of what you said? Actually, when I parked the car, I went inside, I booked the theater, it was sold out. We were oversold that night by 250 people, but how did I get through that period? One foot in front of the other. It was right in the middle of all this, 2008, the great recession hit and it was just one foot in front of the other, hard, hard, hard work.
Robert K:
There were nights at work where I would have to stay overnight working and also, 15 years later, when I made the next film, Christmas with the Karountzoses, I didn’t know if anybody even remembered me. Even now I still feel that way, so I wasn’t sure whether there was going to be anybody out there caring what I did and what movie I made, but without… one of the comments I always hear with Faith, Hope and Love is thank you for making a faith-based film that didn’t pound me over the head with religion. My comments to you about when I talk about God and getting me through those hard times, it was tough, it was a struggle. There were times when I thought, God, how am I going to get through all this? As my friend Mike would say, “God squeezes, but he doesn’t strangles.” I found that to be true. What God, I think, was doing during that time was fortifying me for the road up ahead. The fight up ahead, and the battles up ahead.
Gary S:
The extraordinary part of all the stories that you’ve told, Robert, you had a vision in the aftermath of those crucibles. You talked about it. About offering hope to people. One of the things that we talk about, that Warwick talks about at Crucible Leadership, is the key to getting beyond crucible moments is to have a vision that points you toward a life of significance. To talk about Faith, Hope and Love, it’s very interesting that in that film, your lead character, Jimmy Hope, played by you, has personal and professional crucible experiences. He is doing poorly at this job. He gets fired, but knows his boss so well, that he manages to delay the firing, to have one last chance to work on a really, really tough account in this advertising agency, so there’s the professional crucible.
Gary S:
On a personal front, his wife has passed away a few years earlier and he’s left to raise his two daughters on his own. For you to say that movie’s about hope and that’s where your character’s at, how does that play out? Tell listeners a little bit about, without giving away too much, so that they want to actually see the movie, how the movie deals in those subjects, sort of mirrors your life it seems, a little bit.
Robert K:
Yeah. One of the great compliments we’ve received on this film is that you know Gary, you would think I’d have it all figured out by now, but I’m constantly refining it and thinking, what am I doing this for? Specifically, what am I doing this for and what is it that I’m bringing that when I look in retrospect, oh, that’s what you brought to this filmmaking business? I think what it is, is this. The films that I’m heading towards like a locomotive is faith-based films, they’ve been stereotypical, they’ve been stiff, they’ve been poorly acted, they don’t have much entertainment value, and you just go, oh, you wonder why we as Christians keep getting pigeonholed.
Robert K:
The same way is, when I speak, I talk about this. When Spike Lee came out with, She’s Gotta Have It, I remember sitting in that audience with 95% African American audience and they were screaming at the film. Why? Because up until that point, when you saw an African American character, they were a pimp, they were a thug. Then, all of a sudden you had someone came along, said, “We’re more than that.” Then, you see it, you go, holy man, they responded. The same thing, I think, is happening with Christians today. When you look at films, 95% of them that portray Christians, it’s dull, it’s flat, or they pick one of two subject matters. They went to heaven, they came back or it’s the old testament, but it’s not the day-to-day life that you and I go through.
Robert K:
With Jimmy Hope, and what you were talking about, I wanted to show real life problems. You know Warwick, what you were saying, “Well, how did you get through it?” You know what I have found, because that’s why I go on the road with the film and I go to these screenings and I meet the people. I have found that when I’m at those screenings, that mothers will come up after me and someone will whisper in my ear, “My son committed suicide. This is the first time I laughed.” I’ll come up and someone say, “I just lost my husband.” What I have found, everybody’s going through similar stuff that I went through and when God allows you to go through what I went through and what Jimmy Hope went through, you become so much more empathetic towards the human condition.
Robert K:
When I see people post stuff on social media or when they call me or email me, I’ll tell you, it breaks my heart and the only way I have to process it and get through it is by making these movies and taking these moments back out there and saying, “I’m with you, I hear you, and there’s hope.”
Gary S:
There was a-
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Robert K:
Does that make sense?
Warwick F:
That’s right. One of the things that we talk about on Crucible Leadership, it sounds a bit trite, but it’s pain for a purpose. We don’t always know why, I mean, God obviously doesn’t cause pain, but why does he allow things to happen? You’re right. It does give you empathy. I mean, my crucibles are very different than yours, but having lost a large family media business, and if you google me, it’s not particularly favorable. They do have a Wikipedia entry, it’s got a young, hot-headed kid, could have had it all, but blew it. It will probably always be that way, so it gives you a sense of empathy for people, but a couple things that is remarkable about your story, many, but this sense of resilience. There’s one aspect I want to mildly disagree with you in the sense if you very humbly say, “Okay, I wasn’t courageous,” but you look up courage, many definitions of courage is something like this. That even when you were fearful and you just didn’t think you could make it, somehow you find the strength to take one more step.
Warwick F:
For people of faith, well maybe the ability to take one more step comes from above, but I mean, courage is not the absence of fear. Courage is being able to take a step even when you’re quaking in your boots. That was kind of the definition of courage that you were going through. I mean, some listeners won’t be people of faith, but whether you call it faith or not, whether it’s with the decision whether to abort your triplets, one or all of them, or the decision about to put your movie on hold, career on hold for a while, or the decision to keep going long-term, it’s listening to their inner voice.
Warwick F:
Maybe you don’t believe in God or maybe it’s more of an ethereal supreme being or however your definition is, you listen to that inner voice, that still small voice that says, “You know what? This is the right thing to do.” Don’t ignore that. You didn’t ignore that voice in those critical moments, so the listeners of whatever faith, just the courage that you displayed in listening to that inner voice, putting your family first, I don’t know. You do that, you feel like God, universe, in some fashion, maybe not the way we would like or expect, will honor that. Now, what you’re doing with Faith, Hope and Love, it’s just… you’re right. I mean, the cliché of Christian movies is yeah, poorly acted, poorly directed, poor plots, poor story, poor everything and then you slap Jesus on it. Okay?
Robert K:
Right.
Warwick F:
When you have people of faith cringing, it’s not a good sign. No.
Robert K:
No, my sister… my sister’s a very religious woman and she said, “I don’t go to them anymore.”
Warwick F:
The movie that you made, it made you laugh, cry, it was funny, it’s compelling, great acting. Being from Australia, obviously, loved the fact that the lead actress is Australian. Yeah, exactly.
Robert K:
Peta Murgatroyd
Warwick F:
That was so fun, so I mean, I applaud you for what you’re doing in really just ignoring the naysayers, the people who say, “Robert, give it up. Give it up. You’ll never make it. Okay?” Even now, they’re probably saying, “Okay, maybe this will work,” but you’re not going to be Christopher Columbus or Robert Zemeckis or whoever these people are, and you probably think, okay, so what? Okay? I don’t need to make movies that gross as much as Star Wars. That’d be nice, but then I’m sure you’d be quite happy if it didn’t gross that much. Right?
Robert K:
Yeah. I think once God… you know Gary asked me the same thing, how did I get through all this? You know that the short answer, without being heavy handed, there’s no question about it. God had such compassion on me and such kindness toward me. There’s many a day I came in, I have an icon of Christ up on my wall and, boy, there’s been many a day that I came in and cried in front of that icon and said, “Thank you.” I mean, really, genuinely, if I said one thing over and over again in that moment, it was, “I owe you my life.” That’s what I’m going to do is, the parable of the talents, I’m trying to use whatever God gave me, whether it’s dancing or writing or editing, producing, whatever it is, because I’m hopeful when that moment comes when I am with him that he does say, “Well done my son,” and not, “Why weren’t you singing? I gave you talent to sing. What was wrong with you?”
Gary S:
There is a line in Faith, Hope and Love, Robert, I was watching the movie on a Saturday night with my wife and I actually got up from the couch and wrote this line down because I wanted to ask you about it. It’s the scene where Jimmy and Hope are on the rooftop and he’s explaining his faith to her because she has no faith in the beginning and she’s intrigued by his faith and the hope that comes from his faith and it’s attractive to her. He’s explaining to her about the death of his wife and how that didn’t kill his faith, that actually helped augment it, it strengthened his faith. Your character says this in explaining to Faith why he was able to still have faith. Jimmy says that he prayed to God that if he could get me through that, his wife’s death, I’d never be casual about my faith again. That struck me when I heard that, Robert, that that wasn’t a line that Robert Krantz made up as a screenwriter. That was a line that Robert Krantz lived as a man.
Robert K:
Not only myself, but when I’m sitting in screenings, I can feel that moment resonates with audience because it’s doing one thing. It’s allowing the audience to move into Jimmy’s shoes in saying, “Where am I on that spectrum?” I can feel it, that when he said that, “I was a casual Christian,” at the start of that speech, I can feel that moment has done so much more, Gary, than the typical thing that you’ve seen in movies, which is movies start out with somebody who’s very angry at God and then they convert. I didn’t want to go down that road. I wanted to show what I perceived to be, what I’ve gone through, and what I’ve perceived for friends and acquaintances go through, which is you’re in that boxing ring with life, and life hits you in the chops. You wobble and you’re trying to get your bearings and you’re trying not to go down for the count.
Robert K:
I’ve always found that God is that hand that comes in and steadies you and gets your back up there. You’re right. That is what I try to do with my life is to not be casual about it and do things like this. Also, I don’t know if either of you’ve had a chance to go up on social media, or Rotten Tomatoes, we had a 97% audience approval. That movie, there is something about it that is just resonating with people and I think it’s the things that we’re talking about.
Gary S:
This would be a great time, Robert, for you to tell listeners how they can get their own copy. It is now on DVD, came out in the spring of 2019, but now it’s on DVD. How can they get their own copy and see for themselves what Faith, Hope and Love is all about?
Robert K:
If you go to… there’s one place. Do not go to Amazon. Apparently, there’s urban company up there that’s selling it and they’re giving out German copies for German. Maybe the people have the German rights to it and people are frustrated, so don’t do that. If you go to our website, and I’ll spell it for you. It’s called EllinasMultimedia.com. It’s E-L-L-I-N-A-S, Multimedia, M-U-L-T-I-M-E-D-I-A dot com, you can get the DVD and they ship out the same day and they get there in three to five days, so it’s EllinasMultimedia.com. As my friend, Elaine, says, “Could you have made it a longer dot com title?”
Gary S:
Well, it could have been your birth name dot come. That would have been extraordinarily long, too. As we start moving toward doing what I like to call land the plane, one of the things that Warwick and I wanted to chat with you about is Crucible Leadership is all about, not the end, but the goal of coming out of a crucible is to lead a life of significance. It occurs to me that Hollywood, and I’ve lived there, I worked in publicity for the film industry for three to four years, Hollywood is not an easy place to pursue significance, either professionally or personally. Professionally, in the movie business, opening weekend is everything. If you don’t do great there, people forget about you.
Gary S:
Personally, look at the headlines and the stories of marriages that fall apart. It’s not an easy place to pursue significance and yet, you’ve been able to do it. I think one of the things… I want to ask you how you did that, but I want listeners to understand that it’s not where you’re placed, but what’s placed in you that paves the road to a life of significance. I think you’ve talked about that, Robert, but how have you found a way to live a life of significance, if not in Hollywood proper, in Orange County, and in the motion picture industry?
Robert K:
First of all, I have nothing to do with Hollywood. I don’t go up there, I’m not part of that whole… I just don’t. I don’t like it. Nothing against it, but I just… it’s not me. There’s an element of heaven that’s going to be… I think I’m going to do Falling in Love with Sophia, the book I wrote next. There’s also an original screenplay that I’m writing that has an element of heaven in it, so I’ve been reading a lot about it. One of the things that I’ve read is kind of how I feel, how I want my life to be. I’m not saying that I’ve nailed this yet, but it’s definitely… we talk about a life of significance, I read when you get to heaven, God plays a movie and that movie is of you in all the moments in your life when you gave out love.
Robert K:
I’ve thought about that and I think that what I constantly try to do… I’ve missed the mark, I’ve missed… there’s certain people in my life be going, “Oh, okay, what about… do you remember… Yeah, you forgot about that love moment,” but I think what I’m trying to do every step of the way with people I come in contact… whether it’s somebody that delivers something to our office, whether it’s one of my children, whether it’s an acquaintance, I’m doing my best to if you drop a pebble or rock or boulder in water, the pebble has very little ripples. The rock has more, the boulder has the most ripples. I’m trying to be that boulder with when I drop in, so it has all those ringlets that come out and I’m trying to touch as many people’s lives with goodness that I can. Not easy. I get pissed off like everybody else, but I’m trying to lead a life of significance that way.
Robert K:
Paul was going out in the gospel, he was just going from town to town, person to person. It wasn’t like Paul, can you imagine, Paul must have said to God, “Invent the internet already. Come on. Speed this up. Let’s get this going.” You know what I mean? “What am I almost dying in this shipwreck for?” I mean… so I keep my mouth shut and I’m just trying to go from person to person, moments like this, and I try and just let God do what he does. If it ends up being there’s a hundred people I touch in my life, if it’s a million, whatever he decides I’m convinced my job is in this life of significance is to go out and put out these films, touch as many people as I can, and also my personal life, at the end of it, when they write my epithet, I want them to say, “He was a phenomenal husband, he was a phenomenal father,” and hopefully with these movies, “he was a phenomenal filmmaker that touched people with these faith-based films.”
Gary S:
That is, I think, a great place to put down the landing gear and land the plane. Warwick talks all the time, Robert, he talks all the time about what do you want on your tombstone and one of the things that we discovered as we were talking about that concept is if you look at the three greatest singers in three genres, country, Johnny Cash, Rock and Roll, Elvis Presley, standards, jazz singer Frank Sinatra. I looked up all of their headstones. Their headstones don’t talk about all the gold records and all the concerts and all the fans. Johnny Cash has a psalm on his, Frank Sinatra’s simply says, “The best is yet to come,” and Elvis Presley’s talks about being a son and a father. At the end of the day, those are the things that matter.
Gary S:
Hopefully, listener, you have really, in our time together today, heard about some things that matter and it’s Warwick’s hope and it’s Robert’s hope, that out of this conversation that we’ve had today, out of Robert being so transparent, Warwick talking about his own crucible experiences, that you draw hope from that, you draw perhaps insight, ideas for how you, too, can live a life of significance beyond your crucible moment.
Gary S:
If you’d like to learn more about Crucible Leadership, you can visit us on our website, at CrucibleLeadership.com. If you want to engage us on social media, you can go to Facebook and that’s found at Facebook/CrucibleLeadership. If you’d like to engage with Warwick and Crucible Leadership on LinkedIn, that’s at Warwick Fairfax, that is with the silent W in the middle, W-A-R-W-I-C-K Fairfax on LinkedIn. Until next time, when we talk about how to live and lead with significance, remember that your crucible moments, as Robert has described today, your crucible moments are not the end of your story. They are the beginning, they can be the beginning of a story, a new chapter in your story that leads to the best destination possible, a life of significance.
When we think of legacy and purpose, it can be intimidating. When we are gone, how do we want our loved ones and friends to think of us? What will be our legacy?
Do we want to be remembered as someone who worshipped the almighty dollar, and would ruthlessly destroy anyone in their path? As someone who was always out for themselves? Someone who did not really care about anyone other than themselves, indifferent to the sufferings and pain of those around them?
As is often said, what do we want written on our tombstone: “A Lonely Man of Great Wealth” or “A Woman Few People Loved”?
The key to living a different kind of legacy is living a life on purpose — a life of significance — that is in line with your values and beliefs. It is fine to go for your goals and try to be successful. But how do you treat people along the way, especially those you love and those around you? Is it success at any cost? Is that truly what you want your legacy to be? Few of us really want that. So let’s be intentional about what legacy — what epitaph — we want on our tombstone. Let us live our lives on purpose, not by accident.
We can influence what others will think of us, our legacy, after we are gone. We need to order our priorities carefully:
1. Our life needs to reflect our beliefs and values.
We need to live our faith and values. Common to a number of spiritual and values perspectives is to treat people with kindness and compassion, to treat them like we would like to be treated. Forgive as we have been forgiven. Do not hold grudges. Reconcile. Live lives of integrity and humility. Think of others before self.
2. Our careers need to be in line with our beliefs and values.
We need to work for organizations and in environments that are in line with what we believe. Why would we work for a company that gouges consumers for a life-saving medication, for instance, or for a company that mistreats and underpays its employees? We often become like those around us. We often tell our kids to hang out with friends who enhance their values, not those who would tear them down. Perhaps we should take our own advice.
3. Our families must be a priority.
If we decide to have a family, we cannot neglect our spouse and kids. If we are never there at our kids’ soccer games or ballet recitals, or never remember our anniversary or spouse’s birthday, what effect will this have? Over time, it will have a devastating corrosive effect on how those that we want to love us will remember us. One of the worst things in life would be to be on your deathbed and to reflect on how much your kids hate you, and you might think deservedly so, and how distant your spouse is from you, who may have left you years ago. It is a bit late at that point to say you are sorry. You only get one chance to live your life the way you had wished you had lived your life.
Historical Examples
George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, who Americans celebrate on Presidents Day, understood the truth of living their lives on purpose in line with their values and beliefs. King George III, whose British army was defeated by Washington, called the then-colonial general “the greatest man in the world.” The same year, 1783, that the Treaty of Paris ending the war between Britain and the US was signed, some of Washington’s officers felt that he should be put in charge, essentially making him a dictator. Washington, at the height of his power, would have none of it and retired to a quiet life, only to be recalled a number of years later in 1789 as the first president of the United States. It was his not seizing power that caused George III to make his statement.
Abraham Lincoln, president during the U.S. Civil War, kept the United States a united country and helped pass the Thirteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution abolishing slavery. Lincoln received almost unparalleled praise. His attorney general, Edward Bates, said Lincoln “comes very near being a perfect man.” Lincoln’s commanding general, Ulysses S. Grant, said of him that, “He was incontestably the greatest man I ever knew.”
Closer to home for me, my great-great grandfather John Fairfax, who founded the 150-year-old family media business I grew up in and at one point led, had this praise given him on his death. His employees said, “We feel that in his departure, we have lost a kind employer and a valued friend.” John Fairfax’s pastor at the Pitt Street Congregational Church in Sydney chose as his text 2 Samuel 3:38, “Know ye not that there is a prince and a great man fallen this day in Israel?”
Do you see the similarities here? Washington, Lincoln, and John Fairfax lived their lives rooted in purpose, dedicated to pursuing significance, and in keeping with their values and beliefs. A life that is on purpose, committed to helping others, to making the world a better place. The key point is that it is not as important as to how much history will remember you, or whether you make the top 10 greatest humans of all time. That sense of public worldwide acclaim centuries later, is almost certainly not going to happen. What matters is how those that knew you, those that loved you, remember you. How will your spouse and kids think of you? What about your friends? What about those that worked with you?
Life is won and lost in the small things
Few of us will ever be remembered by history. Almost none of us will be considered in the same breath as Washington, Lincoln, or even my great-grandfather John Fairfax. But we can control how we treat our families. We can control how we treat people at work. And we can control what we give our lives to.
Doing these things (treating our families well, being kind to people at work, and doing meaningful work that we feel will help us live a life of significance) is possible for all of us.
You see, we can have a legacy in line with Washington, Lincoln, or John Fairfax. Maybe not on the scale of worldly accomplishments, or how many people honor their memories. No, we are unlikely to have a front-page story in The New York Times or Washington Post that says, “Bill, a great and beloved man, has died,” or “Mary, one of the great and kind women of our generation, has passed.” But for those that knew us, our families, our friends, and coworkers, that is eminently possible. At our funeral or wake, it is possible to influence what is said about us. Years after we have passed, it is possible to influence the memory that our kids and grandkids have of us.
So, while the whole world may not say, “Know ye not that there is a prince and a great man fallen this day in Israel?” there may be a few of our close friends and families that might say, “One of the kindest, most giving, most self-sacrificial people we have ever known, has passed.” That is a legacy we can influence. Wouldn’t we want that to be our legacy? Wouldn’t we want that to be on our tombstone?
Reflection
Take five minutes to write your responses. Once you stop to think what legacy you would like to leave behind, it will be easier to make life choices in alignment with that.
How do you want to be remembered, especially by your family and friends?
What do you want people to say about you?
Write out what you would want on your tombstone.
Write out what you would want said at your funeral.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Glenn Williams was living a life of success and significance in 2010 as a C-Suite executive with a global nonprofit doing life-changing work. But it all ended after his integrity was questioned by the CEO, leading Williams to resign and move his family back to his native Australia to figure out what was next for him at the halftime of his life. In this interview with BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host and Crucible Leadership founder Warwick Fairfax, Williams shares the lessons of his crucible experience and what he’s learned and leveraged from that experience. These lessons inform the work he’s doing today to help leaders align their successes, influence, and opportunities to build a legacy of significance.
To learn more about Glenn Williams and LCP Global, visit www.lcp-global.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Hello. I’m Warwick Fairfax and you are listening to the Beyond the Crucible podcast. Today we have a conversation with Glenn Williams. Now before we start, I wanted to update you about a tragedy that has happened recently to Glenn Williams and his family. Glenn’s son, Ryan, 19 years old, suffered a massive stroke and shortly thereafter passed away just an unthinkable tragedy of losing a child. As it happened when we learnt of the stroke that Ryan suffered, we had already scheduled a date for this podcast to be released and we were going to air it pretty soon after it was recorded. Once we heard what had happened to Ryan, we postponed the airing of this episode. The reason that we were so keen to air this episode after we recorded it, was as you’ll hear from Glenn, Glenn shares his story of being a senior leader in a large organization and he suffered a career defining setback when that ended. And he felt he had to leave.
Warwick F:
Very few senior leaders will air with such vulnerability and honesty what they went through and the challenges of bouncing back from this kind of a setback. So we subsequently reached out to and just told him that we would, with his permission, like to air this episode because it was just so powerful and Glenn has graciously agreed. And I want to read what Glenn shared in allowing us to air this episode. He said this, “Experiencing another crucible moment does not diminish the significance of an earlier one.” So we are grateful to Glenn for allowing us to release this episode. And here is our conversation with Glenn Williams.
Gary S:
Welcome everybody to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the program and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. And you have come in to a podcast that discusses crucible experiences, those difficult things that can either happen to us that we can be involved in, perhaps helping happen to us, but there’s moments in life that can be painful, can be traumatic, can change the trajectory of our lives. And we talk about them here, not to dwell on them, not to wallow in them, but as leaping off points to lead a life of significance. What can we learn from these crucible experiences? That’s the focus of our conversations that we have here. Joining me as always in these conversations is Warwick Fairfax, the host of the program and the founder of crucible leadership. Warwick we’ve a good one today.
Warwick F:
Absolutely Gary. And thanks so much and I am so excited to have you Glenn on the program.
Glenn W:
Thanks Warwick and Gary. It’s great to be here.
Gary S:
That Glenn that Warwick referred to is Glenn Williams and I’m going to tell you a little bit about Glenn. Glenn is the founder and CEO of LCP global, a company that builds the capacity of leaders to lead themselves, lead others, and lead their business. With more than 25 years working as a psychologist, executive and board member in more than 40 countries. He is passionate about changing the way leaders think and behave. Before founding the firm in 2010, Glenn held senior roles with a global US-based NGO with offices in 18 countries, becoming the chief operating officer for global operations. Earlier in his career, Glenn worked in sales for a multinational company NSK bearings and founded Pro-Fam Australia, which devoted a range of community based programs focused on building stronger families and communities.
Gary S:
These programs found their way into Asia, North America, Europe, South Africa and the middle East. Glenn holds a doctorate in global leadership from George Fox University where he focused on the relationship between leadership, character and performance. He also facilitates executive round tables for Halftime Australia, helping leaders align their successes, influences and opportunities to build a legacy of significance. Glenn is married to Natalie and has three teenage children, which he says here creates their own challenging situations.
Glenn W:
Did you have to pause and just emphasize that. You don’t leave that just hanging there?
Gary S:
No. I mean, we have to make sure… because again we’re talking about crucible experiences and a life of significance and raising three teenagers is definitely a life of significance.
Warwick F:
Exactly. And what’s interesting Gary is, I know you’ve known Glenn for a few years and I’ve known Glenn for a little bit, so it’s so fun to have Glenn on the program. We met through a mutual Halftime Australia acquaintance and got to chat and he put me onto a tremendous marketing and branding firm in U.S Signal that’s been so helpful to me. So I owe Glenn a lot and so thankful. So really thank you so much for being here. And so, a good place to start is with Crucible Leadership, we always like to understand someone’s crucible experience and what that was like and how they got over it, how they bounced back to what we call the life has significance, a life that’s on purpose helping others. But to really understand the getting Beyond the Crucible part, you have to understand the crucible. So tell us a bit about you and your crucible experience.
Glenn W:
Thanks Warwick. I think my crucible experience, although certainly the one that I’m talking about today really goes back to 2010. I was working in the chief operating officer job for a large global NGO and things have been, I want to say pretty cruisy I guess. Things were going well, although at the time lots of different challenges the GFC hit, there was a significant founder transition, lots of restructuring within the organization. And so apart from those normal, what I would say relatively normal challenges that many businesses go through, one day I had an unexpected conversation with the CEO of that organization, which led me to ultimately resign the position that I was in. Like many crisis points, I probably didn’t see that coming, that particular conversation. And I felt that it was a conversation that really questioned my integrity and that was something that I’d always held very strongly to and attempted to maintain through my working life.
Glenn W:
Ultimately, having had that integrity questioned really felt that I couldn’t continue in the role with the confidence of the CEO and so I felt that it was important at that time to resign. Not an easy decision to be honest. I’d been involved with the organization in different roles in Australia and also in the U.S for almost 18 years. So this 18 years in an organization, it’s 18 years of building great friendships, very strong relationships. You put your roots very deep into an organization and into the people that make up that organization and in this context from all different countries or a host of different countries. So actually resign and leave then for really being in a place of like, wow, what did I just do? What just happened? And the impact of them, Natalie, my wife and my children was, it was also a quite profound.
Glenn W:
And at the end of 2010, my decision to relocate back to Australia, that in itself was a difficult decision to make, but again we felt our hand was forced to do that. And so we relocated back to Australia. I think at that point I had been quite… I think I didn’t realize Warwick how burned out I actually was not just from that experience, but in the lead up to that time and feeling somewhat burned as well from some very close friends. Really went back to Australia and felt like, wow, it really wouldn’t interest me just to move into another role quickly because I really quite frankly didn’t know what I wanted to do. And secondly, didn’t feel that I was really in a position to make a healthy decision about what to do next.
Warwick F:
I mean, it’s interesting what you’re talking about because it’s one thing to be fired. It could be you resigned in your case but you know, you could be downsizing. It could be economy’s going in other direction. Maybe a new investor has come in and want to bring in their people. I mean, there’s all sorts of things that happen in the corporate world, but this is a bit different. This is more… it wasn’t that your intelligence or your ability was questioned. It was more your character and somebody questions your character. I mean that’s devastating. It almost feels worse than if somebody questions your competence. That’s one thing. But this feels like a lot worse. Don’t you think that they’re questioning your character?
Glenn W:
Yeah. I think it is. And particularly if you hold onto that idea was being part of who you are and it’s that reputation. You’ve worked really hard to maintain and build. And I still remember growing up, my father always used to say, “You know what, your word is everything.” And so for me in a way to strive for so long to ensure that my word was my word and then to feel that, that had been not in question but actually brought into disrepute, at that time it was quite difficult. And I think also responding, I guess to the reactions of others at that time as well. I think most people you try and leave any organization, hopefully well there’s no point bringing any organization or any individual who’s been involved in that through dragging and through the mud, so to speak or… as you pointed out earlier, Warwick in our conversation shooting arrows, actually not healthy for anybody.
Glenn W:
But it became difficult to articulate to people why I was leaving. For them it was like, “Hang on a minute. You’re not just going to leave.” And so that made it all the more difficult to move on because I felt like I was being a little bit disingenuous in terms of trying to explain why I was leaving the organization. And I’d been part of, like I said for almost 18 years.
Warwick F:
And that’s got to have been so difficult because I mean, I’ve seen this in different organizations where somebody leaves and it’s like, okay, I don’t get that. Why is this happening? And I’m sure there’s a lot of folks that’s seen Glenn’s doing such a great job. He’s been with the organization for a while. Why would he leave? Doesn’t he care about the mission of the organization? I mean, he lost his belief in the whole mission? What’s the deal here and I’m sure friends would have asked you and for the reasons you mentioned you couldn’t tell them. Because you didn’t want to throw arrows and you’re giving them answers that you know are going to be unsatisfactory.
Glenn W:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
And it’s like, well Glenn, I thought we were good friends and you’re not telling me, I mean what’s this about? That’s got to being unbelievably difficult… Some of those conversations.
Glenn W:
Well, which makes it quite difficult to move on in some respects because on the one hand, there’s a story that as you said it’s quite inadequate, but it’s a story that you tell which is the one that people are hearing. Then there is the other side of the story that only very few and only those closest to you are seeing. Look, I’m sure my wife would do a much better job than me to explain the impact of that time, I still remember making the decision to resign. I literally jumped in my car, I went home and honestly I cried my eyes out.
Glenn W:
I felt like I was letting down all of the people that were reporting to me and so many people who I worked with and who I knew well and I think to an extent, everything that you’ve built and been a part of to see that pushed to the side and now all of a sudden you’re no longer part of it. Which again, I think part of the crucible experience brings into question your sense of who you are and your sense of identity, your sense of self worth and how do you move forward and those sorts of things start to become quite confusing question.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And I don’t want to dwell on this too much, but when our integrity’s questioned, for most of us, our first instinct is to fight back is to debate. Obviously ultimately the CEO gets to decide what they want to do. I mean you must have at least tried to say, well I disagree, I don’t see it that way and tried to defend yourself. And sometimes we’re in this agree to disagree mode where, I don’t know, you can have this conversation and talking past each other. I imagine with, again, I don’t need to know details, but you had to push back a bit saying I’m not seeing this. What the heck is going on?
Glenn W:
Yeah, you do. And I think you try and do that the best way you can. I’ve come to the realization Warwick that, there are perspectives and in this context they were two different realities and they didn’t align. And so yes, on the one hand there is the temptation of wanting to jump in and defend yourself and how could it lead to this? On the other hand, the fact that it did lead to this and clearly there were two conflicting realities then it probably wasn’t healthy to continue anyway. And that’s what I mean I think, having come to that decision of been realizing I’ve lost the confidence of the CEO and think it was really time to move on in a way it makes it seem like the decision was quite easy. Like let’s just make the decision and move on. But I think moving on became much more difficult and much harder than I ever imagined.
Warwick F:
I’m guessing and I’m going to put words in your mouth here for a second and correct me if I’m wrong, you did what you did because you felt like it was in the best interests of the organization and that some protracted conflict in some sense, whatever the word is, wouldn’t have been good for the organization and whether it was good for you is another question. But you did what you did I am assuming because you thought it was the right thing to do in the circumstances.
Glenn W:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And look, I think there’s an element of truth in… there’s no point hanging around at that point. You don’t want to potentially be seen to be white anting anything or creating undertones that would undermine the CEO and the leadership team. It’s not healthy for them. It’s not healthy for the organization. Ultimately is not healthy to you. It wasn’t healthy to me Warwick. So again, I think tough decision at the time. Lots of people make very similar decisions. I think one of the things that made it difficult for me to move on, and I’ve come to see that this is quite prevalent in society and for many people who move from one organization to another or move out of a particular senior role, often they’re required to sign a confidentiality agreement.
Glenn W:
Things like business you’re not to talk about the particular circumstances that may have led to that departure. And the challenge with that of course is, how do you resolve that? How do you deal with all the conflicting emotions? How do you process that in a healthy way to be in a position where you can make a really good decision about what is next? And so what I’ve discovered in some of the work that I’ve done since then with other CEOs and other executives, they’ve developed some fairly significant… what I would call dysfunctional behaviors within their leadership role and dysfunctional thinking because they have not been able to adequately process and move on from the earlier experience that was perhaps quite hurtful and quite destructive to them. So, how do they do that when they’re being forced to sign something not to talk about it and then they just move on.
Warwick F:
And that’s probably very common. I mean, last question on the particulars. When these things happen, we feel maybe betrayed or hard done by, that’s obviously normal, but it’s also normal to have maybe a thought, maybe 10% that was my fault. Or maybe was I really that person? Like you’re pretty sure you weren’t. But being human, at least for me, when these things happen, I might feel like that wasn’t my fault. I don’t think maybe was it, did you go through any of that self doubt, “Like, gosh, is any of this possibly true?”
Glenn W:
Actually in this context, not really because, what was being brought into question was something that I knew 100% was not something I did.
Warwick F:
Two different realities.
Glenn W:
So not really, but again… you’re talking about moving on from a situation like this. And I think in a way it sounds kind of selfish, but it was just about me. It was just about moving on. In a way I’d like to think I could do that fairly well. We’ve developed skills over the years, we’d acquire experience, we’d come very self sufficient. But I think what I found different was helping the family move on and helping my wife move on. I talk about secondary pain to some leaders where our wives often carry the pain that we’re feeling. And in a way they carry it quite differently because they feel your pain.
Glenn W:
And they also feel the impact of their pain on family. So in our context it was a little bit more complex in the sense that we had left Australia to work in the U.S so we had different issues in terms of visas and green cards and so on and relocation expenses and things like this. So, we were suddenly confronted with, well, do we stay and live in a bit of a fishbowl and be at risk of feeling drawn into different internal battles within the organization by people who wanted to stir the pot or was it best for us just to leave cleanly and then relocate back to Australia, which is the decision that we decided on.
Warwick F:
Well, it’s interesting you mentioned that as listeners from previous podcasts will know, I was in somewhat of a similar situation is that when the takeover of Fairfax Media ended up not working and the company went under, I felt like I couldn’t stay in the goldfish bowl of Australia, especially not Sydney, where the company was headquartered. And the name Fairfax means a lot specially in Sydney. And I had moved to U.S but my wife’s American. So fortunately it gave me that option, but there’s no way I could have continued in Sydney. So I absolutely can relate. And I also can relate that, again, I’ve talked about this in podcasts and blogs and elsewhere many years ago in 1976, other members of my family threw my dad out as chairman of Fairfax Media and they might’ve had their reasons. And I don’t really see that it was my dad, obviously my mother was pretty angry.
Warwick F:
I was 15 at the time and it was devastating for him. But that secondary family reaction, if you will… Yeah, I still remember that it was just how could they do that to my dad? And it’s decades ago, I have a bit of a broader perspective. Still don’t think it was really justified to be honest. But maybe a little bit broader, but I get it. Those who love us, they’re really hurting. So you’re in that space where you’re back in Australia, you’re thinking what’s happened. I think you’ve also talked previously about, who am I, who’s Glenn Williams, my identity, what do I do now?
Warwick F:
I mean talk a bit about that space and then how in the world did you get out of that dark place of just, well now what, I can’t talk about this even with people in Australia, at least not publicly. How did you get out of that hole, if you will… I don’t know, self doubt, what’s my identity, all that. I mean, which I can obviously relate to. How’d you get out of that?
Glenn W:
It’s a great question and I think again Warwick our identity certainly becomes very enmeshed with the work that we do. If you think over a long career, if you think of a lot of the affirmation that you receive for a lot of your achievements, for the promotions that you might get from time to time, some of the amazing people that you get to meet and be part of their lives and fairly influential roles themselves and different parts of the world. It’s only natural for you to feel like, well, you know what, this is part of who I am. I mean I love this role. And of course what happens when you take that away? What is left? And I think that’s probably one of the things I struggled with the most. When you strip away something that has been a significant part of my life and it was more than just a job, it was very much a strong sense of purpose, a strong sense of call that I had to that work.
Glenn W:
And so for that to be pulled away and removed, all of a sudden it was like what is left and who am I? And I’ll never forget just a couple of years later, my 13 year old son at the time saying to me, dad how come you’re not successful any more. And I was like, let’s grab a dagger and stab that through the heart. But really in his eyes and what had been part of his experience was dad being an influencial role, having an impact in the work that he was doing, building teams and building into people and seeing great things happen and perhaps having a great budget to manage hundreds of people or whatever the case might be. So in a way he’s definition success was through that. And so for me, what I had to do as part of my recovery, I guess Warwick from this crucible experience was really needing to redefine success, what was success really about.
Glenn W:
And a friend of mine Andrew, gave me a book almost as I got off the plane in Melbourne, November 2010 he said, Glenn, you need to read this. And partly because of what I was going through at the time. I said, look, thanks Andrew, and threw it on the bookshelf for at least the next six months. I pulled it off one day and the title struck me of all things. The title of the book was called Isolation and it’s written by Shelley Trebesch. She has a very strong Christian faith in that book. I think something that I could connect with was the sense of where your identity is being stripped away. An identity that you’ve become very familiar with, comfortable with and very dependent upon. You’re used to people relating to you through a particular prism I guess or lens.
Glenn W:
And in that, she talks about sometimes we go through voluntary and involuntary periods of isolation where there’s a stripping away process. But the stripping away process is an important part of helping you to recreate a new identity for what is next. Now, at the time, I probably didn’t really want to hear that and I was still hurting but over time I began to see the wisdom in that. And so all of a sudden I realized that it was important for me to have to create a new narrative. Gary, you mentioned earlier to create a new trajectory for your life. I think you can only really do that when you can make sense of what has come before. And you reframe that and leverage that in such a way that you can learn from it and leverage those learnings moving forward into a new season in your life.
Gary S:
Right. And one of the things that we talk about a lot at crucible leadership and on this podcast is this idea of building from your crucible experience to a life of significance. And it strikes me, Glenn that it may have had an extra measure of difficulty for you because what you were doing before, you felt was very significant and it was having impact on families and in communities. It wasn’t like you were just grabbing the bottom line in those experiences. I imagine that added some heft to the difficulty as you were looking to what to do next to make another significance because you’d had not just success, but you’d had significance. How did that play out as you were looking toward next steps?
Glenn W:
Yeah Gary. I think that’s a good observation. I think you’re right. There was that sense where you felt that you were working in an area of significance. I know Bob Buford who wrote the book Halftime, from success to significance, he talks about somebody with a success orientation. It is typically all about them. A significance orientation is about doing something for somebody else. As simple as that. Gary, I think you’re right. I was involved in an organization that was making a difference and it was something I was proud to be part of. And so when that was gone, yes, I think you start to think, well hang on a minute, not only have you taken away success, but now you’ve taken away significance as well. So it probably was made a little bit more complex or more difficult from that.
Glenn W:
But there are opportune moments too, we might call them chance meetings or coincidental or whatever, but I came back to Australia and a friend of mine invited me to meet with a gentleman by the name of Jossy and himself had the significant global, not for profit that he was building. And there was some governance issues and global partnership issues that he needed some help addressing. So, my friend said to me, listen, why don’t you just go and help him until you work out what you want to do. Maybe just do a little bit of consulting here and there and be a little bit more patient and process where you’re at.
Glenn W:
Well, I ended up doing that and then it was at that same day I met John Sikkema for the first time and John was on Jossy’s board and John Sikkema heads up the work of Halftime in Australia, but also is the director of Halftime for the global partnership of Halftime outside of the U.S the head office is in Dallas in the U.S and John actually said, “Glenn, you’re in half time.” And I remember reading back in 1994 Warwick when, I think it was the first year that the book was published. And it was a time when Bob Buford, very successful businessman in a very entrepreneurial, and he had tragically lost his only child in a drowning accident. And so went through his own crucible experience and was confronted with, “what do I do now?” At the end of the day, what is more important or most important? And he said, you know what? All of the wealth, all of the trappings of wealth, everything that I’ve accumulated, I’d happily give all of that away to have my son back.
Glenn W:
And so he went through what he calls half time and when we often refer to half time and the combination of a football game or something like that. But in a way it’s very similar. We get to a season in our life and it’s not just a career change. We get to a season in our lives where we begin to question the values that we’ve been living by. We get to question what has happened and how can I leverage that in a significant way in the second half of my life. Bob Buford in his book, he talks about Peter Drucker for example really probably one of the world’s leading management gurus.
Glenn W:
Peter Drucker would make the comment we’re over prepared for life one, we’re under prepared for life two. And so as I met John and John said, Glenn, you’re in half time. Let me walk with you through that journey. John himself had sold a very sizable business and after discovering that he also was in half time and he was at risk losing his marriage, his family and he realized that success wasn’t all cut out to be what he thought it was. And so he said, “Glenn, let me walk with you through this time to help you discover what is going to be more purposeful more significant for you in the second half of your life.” And so some of those incredibly important meetings and learning to look at the first half of my life a little bit differently through a new lens with a view to saying how do I take that and leverage that in the second half of my life. I think those sorts of meetings were very important.
Gary S:
I want to take one second if I can, because I know where the conversation’s going to go here and it’s going to be really interesting. But what you just talked about in describing Halftime, Glenn, is what Warwick in Crucible Leadership talks about in discussing what he calls a refining cycle. And it seems to me that this concept of Halftime is almost a doorway or entryway to this refining cycle from your crucible understanding how you’re designed, understanding what your vision is, crafting a vision and making that vision a reality.
Gary S:
So you guys both independently of each other have come to this model that listeners should pay attention as we have the rest of this conversation because it’s a crossroads of sorts. It’s an entryway of sorts. It’s a refining cycle of sorts at this Halftime. Warwick would you say that what Glenn just described as Halftime is similar to what you went through and certainly similar to what Crucible Leadership’s about?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. One thing I just wanted to touch on first is one of the things that the listeners need to understand is this concept of identity. And Glenn has really talked about in not so many words, a lot of his identity was wrapped up in this global NGO that did a lot of good for people. It wasn’t just making widgets, it was something that Glenn really cared about, felt like was important. And then when that ends it’s like, well, what’s left of Glenn Williams? Who am I now? And I can certainly relate as, again, a lot of our listeners will know, growing up in a 150 year old family media business, my identity was wrapped up in Fairfax Media and it wasn’t just producing widgets, it was producing papers in Australia that tried to serve the country and the community.
Warwick F:
There was a feeling it was a sacred trust that we were trying to do good. So when that ended, and my last name is Fairfax, it’s like, well, my whole mission in life has gone. Well, now what do I do? In one sense there is similar overtones. It took most of the 90’s, they were pretty dark as I was trying to figure out, well now what. It took me years to recover, if you will. So I can absolutely relate. So you’ve had to… it sounds like build a new sense of identity, not just based on success, even success in an organization with a wonderful purpose, that’s great. But our identity should be separate from the organizations we work for. And most business leaders, they’re not there. Right? Their identity is wrapped up in that. So I mean, does that make sense? I mean you know obviously a lot of leaders of organizations, you probably see this every day.
Glenn W:
True. And I think Warwick we have got to be really careful, there’s nothing wrong with success.
Exactly
Glenn W:
In fact part of our new company that am the CEO, often we work with executives and leaders all around Australia and different parts of the world as well. And we want to see them succeed, not only in their respective businesses, but we want to see them succeed in life. We actually want to see them succeed in their marriages, in their families. And research is becoming far more common now that points to, as leaders increase in areas of responsibility as they climb the corporate ladder, the poorer, the quality of their relationships. So at a time when arguably they need those relationships the most, they’re actually in decline. And so we did quite a lot of work with leaders around this whole area.
Glenn W:
How do you make sure that you put in place the right strategies to nurture and build meaningful relationships that ultimately will help you to be more successful in life and in business. And I think the temptation Warwick from me and I don’t know if you felt this way in regards to yourself, yes there’s a sense of I just want to run away and escape and hide and wish I did not have to talk to anybody. But the other part of that is because we’re generally fairly driven to achieve or wired to achieve. We often are looking for the next thing very quickly, in other words, let’s not deal with everything. Let’s just race into another role and take on another senior role and everything will be okay.
Glenn W:
And then I can forget what’s just happened. And so for me and part of the Halftime process was hang on a minute and that could be incredibly detrimental. Why would that be a healthy thing for me to sweep under the carpet everything that’s just happened and all of the conflicting emotions and conflicting mindset and things like this and move into a new role and pretend that never existed and then hope to be really effective in this new role.
Warwick F:
Right. Because, you’ve got to do the inner work before you do the outer work. I mean if you haven’t dealt at least to some level with this stuff within, you probably end up hurting other people, which is not your desire. So you were very wise.
Glenn W:
Well, I don’t know whether I was wise, Warwick I had some wise people around me who were willing to walk with me and again, that’s an important step in moving through a moving beyond a crucible experience, I talked about the importance of minimizing the noise. Everybody has an expectation on what they want from you, what you should be doing. I had good friends who said, “Well Glenn, look, forget it happened. Just go and jump into it. Here’s a few senior roles. You’d be really good at this. Why don’t you take on this, this organization needs help.” But then unfortunately I had some others who said, “Well, hang on a little bit Glenn, don’t rush this. Push the pause button.” Let’s spend some time thinking about what happened, what did you learn from that? What’s going to be beneficial from that experience that you can take with you as you move forward and as you work with others.
Glenn W:
So minimizing the noise was really important. I think the second part of that is just surrounding yourself with some really wise people and wise not necessarily that they have to be highly intelligent. Wise in the sense of, they’ve walked down a similar path and come through that they learned from that, they are comfortable with you being able to be transparent with them in a safe place and a genuine. So I think having some of those people, and like I said, people like John, the John Sikkema’s of this world, walking with you on that journey certainly made it a little bit easier for me.
Warwick F:
And that’s a point I think the listeners really need to understand is when you’re going through the season, the desert is both you and I went through having a couple people that care for us, are with us and can help guide us is so helpful. You mentioned John Sikkema and then you know, with Jossy and the NGO doing some global work in different places. It’s almost seemed like, if you’re a person of faith as we are, that God puts people in our path that helps us when we need that help if we’re willing to listen. And fortunately you listened to John and others and do you look back and say, “Boy, there was some building blocks that helped get me back on the path back to what Gary’s talking about refining cycle of, okay, what’s the first step or the first cycle, the second.” Do you look back and see in hindsight there was a path that led you to the fantastic work that you’re doing now from that dark place?
Glenn W:
Which I must say Warwick at the time you may not have that sense of clarity on the past. In other words, you can’t see the path you’re on it… It’s not clear and so nobody says that you’ve got to enjoy the jumping into new skin to enjoy a refining process. It hasn’t been a process I have enjoyed. I can look back now and say, Wow, what an incredible experience. Look what I’ve learned. Look at the people that I’ve met, look at some of the new opportunities that have emerged. Look at some of the work that we’re now doing with leaders. I can look at all of those things now and say, that’s fantastic. But nothing… I’m not going to sugar coat that and I’m not going to look back and say, wow, I’d love to go through that again.
Glenn W:
No. I don’t want to go through that again. And fortunately I don’t have to go through that same experience and give them up the other personal experiences and there certainly have been some other tough challenges, but we’ve learn to move on and I think again, it is pushing that pause button. It is trying not to race into the next thing. And that gives you the opportunity to look at things a little bit more deeply. And as you said, it’s the internal work and even beyond the internal work. Sometimes it’s other emerging opportunities that haven’t been obvious to you because you haven’t been looking. So, I’ll never forget a doctorate through George Fox University in global leadership and Gary, you’ll laugh at this probably, but I had to make that decisions three weeks before I had actually resigned from the organization that I resigned at.
Glenn W:
And in a way, what an incredible blessing because if I had have waited and resigned and then had to make a decision, I probably would have said, forget it no I’m done, I’m not going to do that. But having already made a commitment and paid the money, all of that stuff and launched into that, I was committed. And so it was part of my life and it was an incredible part of my life in the next three years because we had study intensives in Germany and England and South Korea and Kenya, we went to Hong Kong, South Africa, so I had opportunities to engage leaders from all industry sectors, hundreds of leaders, and talk to them about issues of character, talk to them about leadership challenges that they face in their respective organizations and businesses. And so it opened up enormous opportunities to build new relationships, to do new work, to glean fresh insights. None of that might have happened if I had stayed in my previous role? And so in a way it was just new opportunities that really became more apparent as I went through that experience.
Warwick F:
I want to talk a bit about LCP global, but before I do that, I think a couple of things you’ve just highlighted, it’s important for the listeners to hear is one is when you go through something traumatic as you did, and I did, you might be able to get over it and hopefully be functional as I like to think we both are, but they’re going to be scars. That’s just reality. It’s not like the pain ever completely goes away when I go back to Australia and suddenly to Sydney and yeah, it’s not as bad as it used to be, but there’s still memories and reminders and it’s still this some degree of pain obviously, especially when I go back. So that’s one mark. I think it’s important to realize and also just the divine hand, if you will, the fact that you’d signed up for that course a few weeks before resigning.
Warwick F:
Again, that’ feel like there was somebody guiding you even if you didn’t quite realize what was happening at the time, but just amazing. But what you do now with LCP Global, I think is really exciting. I think one of the things you talk a lot about, feel passionate about is character. People think about being successful, being smart in business, but character, what the heck does character have to do with business? I mean, the board of directors typically doesn’t value character or at least they don’t grade you on your character. Let’s grade you on a five point scale and your bonus will depend on how you did on your character index in the last quarter. So, talk a bit about LCP Global in particular character.
Glenn W:
Yeah. So, the work that we do really… rarely do you find leaders who are incompetent, if they’ve worked their way up to a senior role, there may be some blind spots, but certainly, most of them are quite competent. But where they probably struggle the most is they have limited capacity, they’re being pulled in multiple directions and because of whether it’s pressure from shareholders and pressure from the board or the pressure they place themselves wanting to grow a business and to make a business successful, they take shortcuts, the impact of those shortcuts on the business and on the staff and so on. So, often it’s a capacity issue. And so we often talk to leaders about how do we actually build capacity into their lives, where they actually have the capacity to lead themselves to lead others and then to lead their business.
Glenn W:
And usually, what we found typically is most whether it’s executive coaching or leadership development programs, they focus all about business. But there are so many other variables that can impact on a business in the life of the leader. And ultimately the success of the leader. Character is one of those things. And Warwick, I don’t need to tell you really, I mean like in fact, even here in Australia, just this last couple of weeks Westpac Banking Corporation, it’s up on charges of $23 million illegal transactions. So when people talk about what how does character relate to business, tell me how character isn’t related to good business. And I think, sometimes we’ve got to be turn the conversation upside down a little bit here. So we’ve had a number of recent Royal Commissions into the aged care area, into the banking sector, finance and banking sector. But whether it’s politics, whether it’s impeachment hearings, whether it’s whatever, character somewhere is very close to the core of any leader’s journey.
Glenn W:
But rarely will you have a leader come to you and say, look, Glenn, I need some work done on character. Can LCP come and help us work on refining, developing, our character. Usually it occurs differently. Usually there’s a symptom first. And so the symptom might be, Hey listen, I’m losing some fairly significant talent or we just don’t seem to be able to hold on to great talent in the organization as a continued stream that that revolving door or they come in and they leave fairly quickly. What we would ask, is why are they leaving? Is it purely because of the lack of opportunities or growth or is there something else as a part of the culture, is there like a character within the culture?
Glenn W:
So we talk about the importance of aligning the internal and the external brain. Often you’ve got the external facing brain, but internally, often it can be quite different. And really that’s why I embarked on the dissertation topic that I did, that explores the relationship between character and performance. Because as businesses we can put that cool values up on the wall and have it in foyers and say, here’s what we believe in. This is really important. But those that work with you, those that are inside your organization, they have some serious questions about whether those values have been lived out in practice on the inside. So, what we’ve discovered as a result of working with leaders of these five leadership anchors and one of those anchors, which is foundational to successful leadership, is what we call resilient character. How do we help leaders build a resilient character. And having a strong character is part of becoming a resilient leader and a resilient organization in the face of change.
Warwick F:
I feel like you’re highlighting some really important points. I remember as you would Enron that went bust, all sorts of lawsuits. Their mission statement sounded wonderful. We want to respect people and care for everybody, but it was all hypocrisy. They weren’t treating people like that and their customers. And so hopefully as you’re engaging with boards and CEOs, they realize that character impacts the bottom line. Obviously the Westpac, which is one of the biggest banks in Australia and a huge global force that character has an enormous impact. The way you treat people. Nobody wants to be ripped off, credit taking for what they do. So do you find that people in the business world are beginning to realize that lack of character has a huge impact on the bottom line. It’s not just all about touchy feely altruism. Are they getting that, do you think?
Glenn W:
Warwick intuitively, most leaders would acknowledge that truth in practice, it’s difficult to change. Sometimes you’ve got some fairly ingrained practices that have occurred over many years and multiple levels within an organization. And so I understand the challenges that are in front of leaders in managing that. And how do you manage that by contributing and investing in the development of that really healthy culture. I love what Alexandre Havard wrote, the book Virtuous Leadership. And he talks about the importance of virtuous leadership. And I love the way he separates a virtue from a value. So we often talk about core values, but unfortunately even the word value itself in it to an extent has lost its meaning, has lost that sense of value that we would often earlier who contributed to that. And so he would describe a value as being intrinsic value and take integrity as an example.
Glenn W:
It’s an intrinsic value, but it only becomes a virtue when it can be so habitually practiced over time and it becomes actually ingrained as part of your identity. That to violate that would cause immense internal conflict. And I love that because we see this today in practicing lots of different businesses where here are the values that are really important to us. But then the very next day I might be, well hang on a minute. If we follow through on this and be true to that word. We’re about to wipe some value off the stock market for that company. Or look, if we maintain our word on this and keep our word and then we’re going to lose this sale.
Glenn W:
And so often there’s those inconvenient times where the decision maker might say, look, I know this is what we said we believe in, but today, look, we’re going to navigate around the edges a little bit, but then let’s come back and reassure everybody that tomorrow these are our values. And so I love what Alexandre Havard says about that. He says, really that’s not virtuous leadership because that’s not really a core part of who you are because they’re not being habitually practiced. They’re not part of your identity.
Warwick F:
That’s a great distinction, values and virutes. Virtues almost being when it’s so ingrained that you just on autopilot and it’s so easy to think of the short term profitability, but the reality is if you do that to, let’s say a supplier they’ll say, forget it. We’re going to go elsewhere. So in the long term it’ll really hurt your profitability, but people just think, Oh, I don’t care about tomorrow’s profitability. I just care about today, which is dumb, but it’s normal. So this is an amazing discussion. So is there anything else you’d like to share about LCP Global and its mission and the difference it’s making and why it’s so important?
Glenn W:
Well, I think perhaps in wrapping that up Warwick, you’re talking about Crucible Leadership and I think the reality is, leadership for many people can be incredibly lonely, and yet at the same time, once you move through a crucible experience, for me it is the potential for that crucible experience to transform your leadership and to transform your direction and create, as Gary said earlier, that new trajectory. And I think one way to do that is to, as I said earlier, is to really surround yourself with some really good people who are committed to you, who are committed to your transformation and who are committed to you… creating a new trajectory for yourself and for your business. And so for us with LCP Global, I think what we’ve increasingly come across, over time, leaders themselves are often incredibly lonely. They often feel the need to go through pain and through their own crucible experiences on their own.
Glenn W:
They don’t have time or the luxury of time to process or they don’t feel that they can take the time necessary to process that because there’s the pressure to get the next result, increase the bottom line and so on. So the work that we do with leaders really revolves around these five leadership anchors. And again, as I said earlier, yes, it’s all about becoming a virtuous leader. For us it’s about becoming a successful leader and redefining what that means for you and to create that new trajectory. And part of doing that is really reframing your journey. And so coming out of my own crucible experience, I can look back Warwick and Gary and tell everybody that, listen, I was let down and I was hurt and let’s be really bitter and let’s be really resentful and continue to be angry about that and everything else.
Glenn W:
Or I can say, you know what, it was an amazing experience. I had an amazing 18 years. I learned a lot, I met some amazing people. And here are the things I’ve learned and here’s what I’m leveraging now as I’m moving forward and as we’ve started LCP 10 years ago. And as we’re continuing to expand the work of LCP and coming alongside leaders and helping them to be successful in their businesses and in their relationship. So in a way, what I’ve just done for you is reframed an alternate version, which really is not healthy for anybody for me to stay stuck in that earlier version and so far better to leverage that crucible experience and see it as being transformational in its nature and moving through that now into a whole new season and wanting to be part of transforming others. So I think that’s what it is at the heart of the LCP Global.
Gary S:
And that’s a great place to end the discussion and do what I like to say, “Land the plane.” We’re going to land the plane there. And what I love about that Glenn is what we talk about, I sign off this show every time we do it. This podcast with a statement that says “Your crucible experience is not the end of your story. It’s the beginning of the next chapter of your story that can lead to a life of significance.” And that’s what you’ve just described, which is really fascinating and I hope listeners understand or see the similar experiences even though the details are different from what Warwick went through, what you went through Glenn, but the emotional experience behind that, the difficulty emotionally, the feeling, your competence in your character and all those things are in question. Those are things that the details of our circumstances aren’t necessarily what govern us in those moments. You can find hope and healing through the emotional experiences that Warwick and Glenn have both shared here today. Glenn, how can people find out more information about LCP Global?
Glenn W:
They can visit our website at www.lcp-global.com and read about the importance of these leadership anchors for themselves, but then also have a look at some of the enterprise solutions that we provide to the businesses and leadership teams.
Gary S:
And to learn more about crucible leadership, you can visit crucibleleadership.com. You can also engage us on social media, on Facebook it’s at Crucible Leadership, on LinkedIn it’s at Warwick Fairfax and as Glenn understands, as well as Warwick, Warwick has a silent W in the middle. So on LinkedIn it’s at W-A-R–W-I-C-K Fairfax. That’s where you’ll find Crucible Leadership on LinkedIn. Until the next time that we’re together, do remember what we just summed up in this conversation, that your crucible experience is painful, does change the trajectory of your life, as we’ve talked about, but it does not have to be the end of your story. In fact, as Glenn’s described and as Warwick has described, it’s the beginning of a new chapter of your story, which can be the most resonant one yet because it leads to a life of significance.
Few things are tougher when moving beyond a crucible experience than forgiving others, or even yourself, for the pain you’ve experienced from a failure or setback. Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax explains why it’s essential to muster the character and courage to extend forgiveness — or risk being emotionally and practically held back from pursuing a life of significance. How does forgiveness help you and those you forgive? Is it possible or even necessary to “forgive and forget?” Why was it so hard for him to forgive himself after his failed $2.25 billion takeover of his family’s 150-year-old media dynasty? Warwick discusses this and more with co-host Gary Schneeberger in this enlightening new episode.
Few things are tougher when moving beyond a crucible experience than forgiving others, or even yourself, for the pain you’ve experienced from a failure or setback. Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax explains why it’s essential to muster the character and courage to extend forgiveness — or risk being emotionally and practically held back from pursuing a life of significance. How does forgiveness help you and those you forgive? Is it possible or even necessary to “forgive and forget?” Why was it so hard for him to forgive himself after his failed $2.25 billion takeover of his family’s 150-year-old media dynasty? Warwick discusses this and more with co-host Gary Schneeberger in this enlightening new episode.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everybody to Beyond the Crucible, the podcast that focuses on what we call crucible experiences. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. And as I said, we talk about crucible experiences here, not because we want to kind of camp out there, not because we want to wallow in them, but because we believe that those experiences, those difficult trying, painful failures and setbacks in your life can be the launchpad for a new chapter in your life, a life of significance. In fact the subtitle of this podcast is Live and Lead with Significance, and that’s what we hope to encourage you to do as we go through the conversations and interviews that we go through.
Gary S:
And today we have a conversation on a subject that can be very difficult for folks. It’s on forgiveness. Joining me as always is the host of the show, the founder of Crucible Leadership, Warwick Fairfax, and he and I are going to talk about forgiveness in just a little bit. Warwick, it’s great to be back.
Warwick F:
Absolutely Gary, great topic and look forward to it.
Gary S:
The interesting thing about forgiveness… You know, Warwick and I talk a little bit before every episode, and we don’t talk too much about what we’re going to say because we want to keep the spontaneity and we want to catch each other by surprise. We want to have a true conversation and not kind of a rehearsed conversation. So we talked a little bit about forgiveness yesterday.
Gary S:
One of the things that we thought we needed to really start at was to define, right, what is forgiveness? What does it look like? And one of the things I like to do… Noah Webster’s very first dictionary he wrote in 1828, and in that dictionary he defined words in a much different way than they’re defined today for certain. He was a Christian man. He defined a lot of the terms in terms of how they were defined in the Bible. And this is the very short definition of forgiveness that Noah Webster in 1828 gave his readers: “Forgiveness is the pardon of an offender.” That’s the way he described it. Warwick, what’s your reaction to that and how does that apply to how forgiveness works in our lives today?
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean that’s certainly a starting point, is if somebody’s done something to you, they’ve committed an offense. It could be something with legal consequence or not. Yes, forgiveness is forgiving the person that has, I guess, speaking of the Bible almost, has sinned against you.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
It’s not a word we tend to use, but it’s certainly when somebody does something to you, you kind of feel that what they’ve done is a sin from your perspective.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
You feel like it’s bad, which makes forgiving them a challenge.
Gary S:
And it’s not all the time just forgiveness. We hear this phrase a lot when forgiveness comes up. We hear the phrase forgive and forget. And there are different points of view on whether you truly can forget, if you should forget, how do you forget? How do you approach that idea of forgiving and forgetting? Are they always separate? Can they be together? How does that work?
Warwick F:
You know, it’s a complex question. There’s different elements. So when we talk about forgiveness, one of the hangups people have is, I don’t want to forget or condone the horrendous thing somebody has done to me.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
So often extreme cases make the case easier to see, so let’s say somebody’s been abused. I don’t want to forget what they did. And I understand that. So in one sense, just because you forgive somebody doesn’t mean there aren’t consequences. There could be legal-
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Or again, in the case of abuse, it could be a safety issue. Maybe separation may be warranted. I mean there are consequences that just because you forgive them doesn’t mean you condone the behavior. Nor does it mean that you don’t take actions to safeguard yourself and your family. If you’d been in business with somebody and somebody’s ripped you off, because of it, you would be foolish to go into business with them again-
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
To let them rip you off again. I mean, why would you do that? I mean that just says let’s just keep hurting myself. I mean that’s just stupid. So it doesn’t mean that you aren’t smart about it.
Warwick F:
So where it gets complicated is if you say, “Well, I can forgive them. But every night I spend a couple hours just thinking about how awful they were, and you know, I just keep constantly thinking and thinking and thinking. Oh, I’ve forgiven them, but I think about them 24-7.”
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
You know, when you’ve had somebody that’s truly betrayed you or let you down, the annoying thing is they’re often oblivious to what they did to you. And often they don’t really care.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
You know? But it’s, if you just have this compulsiveness that you cannot stop thinking about them or the offense, that part of not forgetting, I don’t know. I’m not sure how that’s that healthy.
Gary S:
You know, this is first and foremost a podcast for leaders. And we’ve talked about it among ourselves as kind of leading from the board room to the living room. And on this subject in particular, forgiveness, I think family relationships, and especially marriage relationships, really come into play. What you just described, right? I do something in relationship with my wife that, I’m frustrated, I’m short of temper, whatever. That’s easy for her in the love relationship to forgive. But if that behavior manifests itself over and over again, she hasn’t forgotten it. She’s not hitting me with it every day. But it is something that you do remember. So you can recognize those things and you can shield yourself from being victimized over and over again. I think that’s certainly a truism.
Gary S:
Now because this is a podcast about leadership, and this is a podcast that lots of business leaders listen to, and it’s the Crucible Leadership podcast, it’s Beyond the Crucible. We have to ask and tell our listeners, why are we talking about forgiveness in the context of Crucible Leadership? Why is, Warwick, as the creator of Crucible Leadership, why is this idea of forgiving somebody else, being forgiven, why is this so important in the context of Crucible Leadership?
Warwick F:
It’s an interesting question and at first sight you might think, “Well, what does this have to do with leadership?” But typically as a leader, you’re going to hit speed bumps, you’re going to hit crucibles. Sometimes, as we say, it can be setbacks or failures. It can be your fault or not your fault.
Warwick F:
So let’s say you’re in a business and you got fired. And maybe you got fired because you made the boss insecure. Sometimes people get fired for not particularly good reasons.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Maybe you spoke up too much. You’re not willing to go with the country club mentality and just go along with what the senior executives and the board says, even though you think it’s wrong or ill conceived. So when that happens, even if you can say, you know what, I was fired. I lost my business because I was let down by a investor, or a partner, or… There’s all sorts of different failures and setbacks.
Warwick F:
If you hold on to that and don’t let it go, it will damage and inhibit your ability to move on to the next venture, the next rung. It holds you back. And so as a leader, you need to forgive because you won’t be able to lead well without forgiving. Again, doesn’t mean to say that you don’t learn from that. So if you were in business with somebody that ripped you off, be a bit more careful next time about who you go into business with.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
It’s not foolproof. You know, just try to safeguard that next time around. Or if you take a job, make sure the company that you are going to work with is one that you respect and the person you’re going to work for is somebody that you think you can trust and won’t let you down. I mean, you can’t… It’s not foolproof, but there are things you can do.
Warwick F:
But if, without forgiving, you can’t move on, and you can’t really get beyond that crucible. So forgiveness is, forget the morality from a faith-based perspective, we’re called to forgive, but from a common sense perspective. If you want to move on and be successful in life, whatever that means to you, you can’t do it without forgiving.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
You just cannot. It will hold you back. It will be like having a millstone around your neck. I mean, why would you want to do that to yourself?
Gary S:
And this is one of those subjects, Warwick, that I know from knowing you, from talking with you, that this one hits close to home for you. There are stories both from your experience in having to forgive yourself. And that’s one of the… Many times the people we have to forgive is ourselves, and you’ve grappled with that., But in your family, in your own experience, in your own story, there were several crossroads where forgiveness was critical, of yourself or others to kind of move on. Can you unpack those a little bit for our listeners to help them understand how that does hold you back or can hold you back?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. You know, when I think of John Fairfax who, I think these listeners will know, is the founder of Fairfax Media in Australia and my great, great grandfather. He founded this business in 1841 that would grow to be a huge media company. But he really had some lessons in forgiveness.
Warwick F:
When he had a small newspaper in England, he wrote a story about a local magistrate, a local lawyer, that said the local lawyer was corrupt. The lawyer sued him, twice. The judge found in favor of John Fairfax. In other words, the story was accurate. But the court costs bankrupted him. So he was proven correct, but yet he was bankrupt. And so obviously a lot to be bitter about there. He was so frustrated he left England and went to Australia, which at the time was a four to six month journey. Not an easy thing to do with a young family.
Warwick F:
What’s remarkable is years later he went back to England and he did some remarkable things. He paid back his creditors who he wasn’t able to pay. Now recognize in bankruptcy, old creditors are wiped clean. He had no legal reason-
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
To repay those debts, but he did. He even, and this is kind of crazy, he actually paid the legal costs of the guy that was suing him. Now, he had long since died, and so he was paying his widow. But I mean, who does that? I mean, I’m not advocating that necessarily, paying the court costs of the person who sued you, but he did. And so that was a remarkable story of forgiveness.
Warwick F:
Then in the case of my father, again these listeners will know, in 1976 some other family members basically forced my father out as chairman of the company. Which, I was age 15 at the time, pretty dramatic thing for me, to see my father who I dearly loved treated that way by other family members. And so over the next few years, as best he could, he said, “You know, I need to forgive them because that’s what God would call us to do.” And also for the family, for my sake, as the next generation. As best he could, he really tried to forgive them for what, certainly from my perspective and his, was an unjust move.
Warwick F:
And then in my own case, when you grow up with power and money, people are going to let you down. It just, it attracts betrayal. I almost think of that image in middle school where, as if somebody put a sign on my back saying, betray me, like kick me.
Gary S:
Right. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Warwick F:
You know? That’s kind of what it felt. Whether it was, from my perspective anyway, other family members, advisers, time and time again, there were people I trusted that let me down. And so I guess I’ve had a lot of practice, unfortunately. And I guess I wanted to get beyond the whole Fairfax Media debacle, part of which was my fault. Which, instead of another strand, which we’ll get to in a moment. But for my own mental health I just had to forgive.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
And one of the things that I’ve really thought a lot about, about forgiveness, is… Like with family members is a good example. If you understand the way they are, it sometimes can make it easier to forgive. So maybe whether it’s abuse or alcoholism, you often hear that people who were abused were in so many cases abused as a child themselves. It’s a generational thing. It doesn’t condone the behavior at all. But to understand it, for me, has always made it easier to forgive. And so that’s been a huge help.
Warwick F:
But just for my own sanity, forgiveness is important. I mean, I know sometimes I sort of jokingly say, it’s often manifested in close relationships, whether it’s parents, siblings, children, spouse. Often there’s behavior that keeps manifesting itself over and over again. And so I would say to myself, okay, I just forgave the last one. And then a new event happens. I mean can you just give me a breather, because I’m, I can’t quite catch up.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
You know, it’s like a treadmill. It’s like it’s not just one and done, because the behavior typically continues. But-
Gary S:
And if…
Warwick F:
Yeah, I think… Go ahead.
Gary S:
And it’s interesting what you were just saying in all three of those stories, that none of those experiences, certainly for your great-great-grandfather, certainly for your dad. I’ve heard you talk about both of those situations. And I know what you went through in your own life. Let’s acknowledge for listeners who are hearing this, what we know to be true: forgiveness is not easy. I’ve heard it described as the hardest responsibility you’ll ever have. To forgive another person is a very, very… It can be a very, very difficult thing to do. Fair?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And I think, I mean the biggest reason you hear, as we’ve talked about before, I don’t want to forgive because I don’t want to condone the behavior. I don’t want to forget. But to me, when I look at forgiveness, the person it hurts most is ourselves. And so to me, you know we are worth forgiveness. We owe it to ourselves to forgive. Because by that pain really having a searing experience for us, in a sense we let the other person’s actions win.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
They win if we don’t forgive.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Because it hurts us so much. So we’re worth it. And certainly a big part of it is just about ourselves. You know, that kind of pain we shouldn’t live with. You know, the anger.
Gary S:
Think about, and maybe you can muse about it. You go back to your great-great-grandfather who founded Fairfax Media. If he had not been able to forgive that lawyer, twice, if he had not been able to do that, how would that have changed the course of the river that was the Fairfax family? Forget about the Fairfax family business and the media dynasty. If John Fairfax had not mustered that, had not understood that forgiveness freed him as much as it freed the lawyer, can you even imagine what your life might’ve been like? What your family’s…
Warwick F:
No, I mean… Yeah, I mean, anger, it tends to hold us back. Maybe if he had had some setbacks, it was like, yeah, you know, I’m here in this young colony of Australia. I’m trying to put bread on the table for the family. And hey, it’s not easy in those first few years. Yeah, maybe I should’ve stayed in England. Well I could’ve stayed in England if that wasn’t for that unscrupulous lawyers suing me. Right?
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Every time something went wrong, it’s like, why am I here? It’s all this guy’s fault. And you just almost use it as a blame game. Everything that goes wrong, it’s that person’s fault. Even if it’s very indirect. I mean one way or another, it will hold you back in your life. It’s almost inevitable.
Gary S:
And that is a perfect segue to talk about your story. And as I’ve heard you talk about it before in podcasts and privately, is it fair to say that the person you had to forgive in the failure of your takeover, the Fairfax Media, the person who was hardest to forgive or took the longest to forgive, was Warwick Fairfax, was you. Is that fair?
Warwick F:
That is. I mean, yes, I had to forgive other close family members who threw my father out as chairman in 1976, and I felt like weren’t running the company along the ideas of the founder and letting management do what I thought was not very sensible things. And so, yeah, I mean, I could say, well, if it hadn’t been for all of that, I wouldn’t have needed to do the takeover. Whether that’s fair or not, that’s my perception.
Warwick F:
So yeah, I had to do that. But you’re right. I mean, harder than that, with myself it’s like, well, why did I do that? Maybe I could have talked to these other family members and rather than ambush them with the takeover. And we’ll never know if that would’ve worked. I’m skeptical. But it’s like my goal in life was to preserve this 150 year old family business for future generations and make sure it was better run.
Warwick F:
And by doing this takeover, the company went under. Yes, it still went on, and is a public company, other people’s hands. But I ended 150 years of family history. So there were years when it’s like, how could I’ve been that stupid. How could I have used the wrong advisors, listen to the wrong people, made so many mistakes. I mean, how could I have been that stupid? And there are probably others like me, that I jokingly say, if there’s a problem in the world, my default is to assume it’s my fault.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
You know?
Gary S:
Yep.
Warwick F:
So, yeah, I mean, I was just very hard on myself, and just sort of crucified myself a bit, and it’s just, how could I have been so dumb? I mean, I have an Oxford degree, a Harvard Business School degree. How could I have made so many stupid assumptions?
Warwick F:
I mean just like assuming, Oh, I’ll do this takeover and the rest of my family will want to stay in a privatized company controlled by 26 year old. What sane person is going to agree to that?
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
How could I possibly have assumed that they would agree? I mean, I have a Harvard MBA. I mean, how could I been such an idiot?
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
You know? And so those sorts of things. Yeah, I was very hard on myself and that took a while to get over. And look at me. Everything I touch I screw up. And it took years to kind of reclaim my self-image. And yeah, in a sense, forgive myself for being young, naive, idealistic, and stupid as many of us once were.
Gary S:
Right. And how did you do it? I mean, this is where the rubber is going to meet the road in this conversation for our listeners. How do you get to forgiveness, whether it’s of yourself or of others? How do you know you’ve done it? How did you feel differently when you forgave those family members? How did you feel differently when you finally came to terms with that, with yourself and you, to quote Webster from 1828 you “pardoned the offender” that was yourself. What did that feel like? What did that look like? So our listeners will know when they’ve truly done it.
Warwick F:
Well for other family members, part of it was, I think as I mentioned, when you understand their perspective, which over the years I think I began to. You know, maybe they had some reasons that my father, they thought needed to move on. And I don’t maybe agree with it all, but understanding certainly helps. You don’t have to agree with another person’s perspective, but if you understand it, it can help in the forgiveness process. So that wasn’t as hard as some close family members. Again, wasn’t as hard, but in one sense it’s myself, but though there were moments.
Warwick F:
I think there’s several different ways. As I said, one is to understand. Another is from a faith perspective, from the Christian perspective, because we are forgiven, we should forgive others. So you know, if you’re serious about your faith then you have to live that. I think with myself, which was probably the hardest thing to forgive, it’s like over the years it’s like, look, I was young, 26, naive, idealistic, meant well, but I just made a lot of silly mistakes. I wasn’t wired to be a Rupert Murdoch, take-no-prisoners kind of executive. That just wasn’t me.
Warwick F:
So as I understood more about who I was, and realized I was really out of my depth, again, that helped. It helped me move on. As I found other things that I actually was good at, that probably helped. It’s like, okay, I guess there are some things I can do without screwing up.
Warwick F:
So it’s really a combination. I think for me it started with understanding who other people were and who I am. A faith perspective that, because we are forgiven, we should forgive. And as we find things that we can actually do constructively. It’s several elements.
Warwick F:
I think probably at the bottom of it all, forgiveness is a decision of the will.
Gary S:
Yep.
Warwick F:
It’s not about feelings. Oh I don’t feel that way. Well forget how you feel. That’s not as relevant as you just got to make a decision. You know what, I’m going to do this. And then as feelings would come up of anger or frustration, I would say oh, I’m not going to let that take fruit. I’m not going to pour kerosene on it. Let the flame goes. I might pray for a moment. Okay Lord, you got to help me here. I mean I would just be very diligent about if I saw a weed poking its head up, plucking it out, not letting it take roots. And that’s a practical day to day thing. It’s several things, acceptance, faith perspective, and when you feel that feeling come up, don’t let it take root.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Get it out.
Gary S:
And that idea of it being, of forgiveness being a decision of the will. I have often described love as the same thing. Love is not an emotion. Love is a commitment of the will to somebody else. And in some ways the two are kind of the, sort of, not mirror images, but there is a connection. To love someone you overlook faults, you kind of think the best of them. And to forgive someone you have to come to that place where you’re able to let go of the hurt that you felt, whether it’s caused by you or it’s caused by somebody else.
Gary S:
I found a quote, I told you I found a quote yesterday, but I didn’t tell you who it was so I could get your reaction to it when I gave it to you. But of all the people who I looked and found quotes about forgiveness on, I was surprised that this individual said this, because you associate him… It’s Mark Twain, who you associate with being kind of funny. And he’s a satirist a little bit. But Mark Twain said this and I want to get your reaction to it: “Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.”
Warwick F:
Can you read that one more time?
Gary S:
Sure. “Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.”
Warwick F:
Wow. That’s an amazing picture. It’s forgiveness almost sounds irrational. You’ve been crushed by somebody’s heel-
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
But yet it can bless you. It can bless others. Like I think of probably the best example relevant to that Mark Twain quote would be John Fairfax, when these other creditors, years later he’s paying them back and wrote them a note. They were just overwhelmed. They said, you didn’t have to do this. I can’t believe you’re doing it. They were just blessed, overwhelmed. They had such admiration for him.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
It was just, then that sense repaying a debt that he didn’t have to repay, that active, I mean in some sense, part of the whole forgiveness aspect. They were so blessed.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
So good can come of forgiveness. That’s not always the case, that the people who hurt us and we forgive them, will say, “Thank you. Wow, I don’t deserve this.”
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
More often than not, they won’t admit they did anything wrong. But some blessing will happen. Maybe it’s friends or family members of them. But yeah, good and great blessing can come out of forgiving.
Gary S:
And that is a great place to land the plane on this conversation on forgiveness. And your story, what you just said about how when he forgave his creditors, your great-great-grandfather received something back. Something good came back to him. That is something we can’t lose sight of as we talk about forgiveness. It’s first and foremost for us, but it does indeed… It frees us of being a prisoner to those negative feelings. But it also, blessings can come back to us from doing that. And certainly I think in the case of John Fairfax, the blessings of the family business and his success in life, in his family, all that being true, I think is a good example.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean just as you talk about being a prison, I mean that is such a great word picture. Lack of being able to forgive, it keeps you in prison. Why do you want to stay in prison? By forgiving, it lets you out of jail. For listeners who may be listening right now that are struggling to forgive, aren’t you worth forgiveness? Even if it’s somebody else’s fault. Isn’t it time to get out of jail? Isn’t it time you’re out there in the meadows and smelling the violets and what have you? Isn’t it time to get out of prison? You are worth it. And so you may not think they are, but you are, so forgive.
Gary S:
That. I’m smart enough to know when the last good word has been said. So we’re going to wrap right now on this and I’m going to thank all of you listeners for joining us on Beyond the Crucible. And if you found this discussion insightful and helpful as you pursue your life of significance, we have a favor to ask of you that will help us help even more people just like you who are seeking a way to move beyond their crucible experiences.
Gary S:
Here’s the favor. Please subscribe to Beyond the Crucible on the app that you’re listening to it on right now. If you do that, you will never miss an episode, and it will make it easier for others to find us, listen to us, and share the podcasts with their friends and their coworkers.
Gary S:
Now, if you’ve heard something today that you’d like to learn more about, we encourage you to visit us on the web at crucibleleadership.com. Warwick writes a regular blog and you can find that there as well as all kinds of other assets that will help you as you’re walking out your life of significance, including you can sign up for regular emails that come out from Warwick where he tackles the latest issues and tips that he’s discussing.
Gary S:
So until next time, please remember that crucible experiences can be awfully painful, can be awfully upsetting, can change the course of your life. But the truth is they can become, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles, they can become not thew end of your story, but a chapter in a new story that can be the best story of your life because it leads to a life of significance.
She battled bulimia all through her teens and later survived an armed robbery and a miscarriage. But Margie Warrell refused to let these crucible experiences define her. She fought her way to a life of significance helping women in particular live authentic lives of unshakable bravery, not battling against external forces but against internal ones. In this interview with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host (and fellow Aussie) Warwick Fairfax, Warrell describes how she has learned to silence the nagging voice of self-doubt in her head, responding to its taunts of “Who are you to try something like that?” by answering boldly back: “Who am I NOT to try something like that?” Challenging herself, and her self-doubts, so bravely have led her to become a member of the Advisory Board of Forbes School of Business & Technology, an honoree of the Women’s Economic Forum and a sought-after leadership consultant to such organizations as NASA, Johnson & Johnson and Google. Her empowering insights to women, and indeed all people, continue with her latest book, You’ve Got This! The Life-Changing Power of Trusting Yourself, coming from Wiley in March.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everybody to Beyond the Crucible, the podcast that’s all about living and leading with significance. I’m your co-host, Gary Schneeberger, the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And the focus of our podcast, really the purpose of it is to visit crucible experiences, those events that occur in our lives that could be failures, things that we’re involved in that maybe we caused to some extent, and they can be tragedies, and traumas, and setbacks that just happen to us in day to day life.
Gary S:
What makes them all kind of combined together is that they are life changing, and the purpose that we talk about them is that there’ll be life changing in positive ways. That they will become the fuel that will help us all live a life of significance and our guide on this journey as always is the founder of Crucible Leadership and the host of Beyond the Crucible, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, it’s great to be here. We’re going to have a good show today I think.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Thanks Gary, and it’s wonderful to welcome Margie Warrell. She is a fellow Australian, so you will notice that. I have unfortunately lived in the U.S. a long time, so mine has got toned down a bit unfortunately, but we do speak the same language, so that is fun.
Warwick F:
And so, just by way of introduction, Margie and I have actually known each other for a while maybe about 10 years. I think we met on a coaching conference in Washington, DC a while ago, and noticed that we might be from the same country. So, we struck up a friendship, and Margie’s been so supportive and helpful, and had me on her a wonderful podcast, Live Brave, and a column she wrote for Forbes.
Warwick F:
And so we’ve known each other for a while and it’s just wonderful Margie to have you on on the podcast.
Margie W:
Well, I am just delighted to be here with you Warwick, and I’m so delighted you’ve launched a podcast too.
Warwick F:
Well, thank you so much.
Gary S:
And for listeners, just so you know in addition to being Warwick’s friend and professional connection, this is what Margie has also done, and I think we’ll all agree that she’s living a life of significance, but here’s her biography. Margie Warrell has walked the path of courage many times since growing up. The big sister of seven on a small dairy farm in rural Victoria, Australia.
Gary S:
From backpacking solo around the world in her early 20s to starting a business with four young children in a new country, Margie’s gained valuable insights about defying self-doubt, building resilience, and embracing life’s challenges with faith instead of fear. The titles of her previous bestselling books, Find Your Courage, Stop Playing Safe, Train the Brave, and Make Your Mark reflect her passion for emboldening people to realize their potential and lead braver lives. A member of the advisory board of Forbes School of Business and Technology, honoree of the Women’s Economic Forum, and a sought after international speaker, Margie draws on her global experiences, background in psychology, business and coaching to speak and facilitate leadership programs with diverse organizations.
Gary S:
They include NASA, Salesforce, Morgan Stanley, SAP, Marriott, United Health, Mars, Johnson and Johnson, MetLife, Berkshire Hathaway, and Google. Margie’s ability to distill complex issues into accessible insights has also made her a sought after media commentator on outlets such as The Today Show, CNN, CNBC, Fox and Friends, and Bloomberg. Her Courage Works column with Forbes has been read by millions.
Gary S:
In her spare time, it does not sound like she has much spare time, but it says right here in the bio, in her spare time, Margie enjoys adventure travel and long hikes in beautiful places. Most recently she summited Mount Kilimanjaro with her husband Andrew and their four teenage children. I’m looking forward to being part of this conversation as you guys have a chat.
Warwick F:
Well, Margie again, so great to have you and we’ll obviously talk a lot about what you’re doing now. Love the new book, You’ve Got This, which I’ve read about half of and it’s so exciting. I love all the work you do on courage, but I’d like to start by way of sort of highlighting that is just some of your crucible experiences.
Warwick F:
Because at least from my perspective, crucible experiences mold who we are and help give us a passion for helping others or at least it can do. And so, I would just love to hear a bit more about your story and crucible experiences before we get to all the fantastic work you do on courage.
Margie W:
Yeah, thank you Warwick. I sometimes struggle to nail it down to one experience because I feel like I’ve had quite a few. Each has shaped me in different ways, and it’s funny when I look back and think what was maybe one of the earlier tough experiences before I really hit out into the … Got at the gates in my adult life, and actually it was probably dealing with an eating disorder to be honest in my teens and 20s.
Margie W:
And something people sometimes have a lot of shame around, and don’t like to talk around a lot, but I think that the journey for me, the inward journey of coming out the other side of that, I had bulimia for 13 years. From being about 13 years of age. And while I was quite high functioning, it wasn’t that, I went through college, and did well and everything else. But for me, the journey of really looking inwardly and going, “What’s underneath all of this?” was actually quite a crucible experience.
Margie W:
And I actually think I came out the other side of that through actually a 12-step program, believe it or not. And we really a journey of faith to “God, I got to get your help on this. I’m struggling to do this alone.” So, I think that also took me into the readings and learning about why we humans do what we do, and why we sometimes do the very things that we know aren’t serving us?
Margie W:
Why do we and sometimes fail to do the things that will serve us? And so, that took me down on a new pathway in many ways that ultimately ended up shaping a whole professional pathway as well. And then of course, as you know in Papua New Guinea I ended up in an armed robbery, which was pretty violent, and then 20 weeks pregnant, finding out 10 days later that I’d lost my first child, that was obviously a much more dramatic crucible experience.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean everybody’s journey is different. I mean, one of the things it’s interesting is you have an interesting story kind of growing up in, was it Western Victoria in-
Margie W:
Southeast actually.
Warwick F:
Oh sorry. Southeast. So, close. Well, at least I didn’t say Northwest, but anyway on a dairy farm, and I think one of the things you write about in your books a bit about and in You’ve Got This! is that maybe there were expectations, and traditional role models from mother and grandmother.
Warwick F:
And so, I don’t know. You’ve had a number of experiences that you’ve had to try to discern who am I? You go through something like bulimia or armed robbery or losing a child. It all tends to make you introspective.
Warwick F:
So, it may not be a traditional crucible experience, but I have a feeling that part of the way you grew up is shaped or it led you to make certain decisions and say, “Well, who am I? Do I want to follow this traditional role?”
Margie W:
Yeah, and to that point, well my father milked cows for 50 years. He dropped out of school at 15, 16. I’d say he probably had dyslexia or a learning challenge that he never got support with, and so he just did very manual sort of work in many ways for his whole working life.
Margie W:
And my mom, she actually left school at 16 to become a nun and joined the convent for nine years, and was nearly making her final vows for anyone who is familiar with Catholicism. Nearly making her final vows, and decided to leave, and then met my father not long after, and had seven children. And I’m actually Margaret Mary, so very Catholic.
Margie W:
But I share that because my parents were very much filled traditional roles, and for me growing up my dad used to say, “Oh, I see you being a sister Margaret Mary one day.” But no one in my family had ever gone to university. It was sort of seen in my parents’ world only really smart people, like really smart people would go to university. It just wasn’t something that people did was to go to university.
Margie W:
And so, even to say, “Well, actually I really want to go to university.” My older brother didn’t or until much later. And so, my parents’ actually expectations was probably quite low.
Margie W:
If I’d left school at 16 and trained as a hairdresser or worked in a local shop, I don’t think they’d have really thought much about it to be honest with you. So, it’s interesting in sort of what it is having parent expectations. I knew that they thought I was wonderful, but I just think they didn’t have very big ambitions for me because they didn’t see a world. Their whole world context themselves was very small.
Margie W:
And so, yeah that definitely shaped me, and for me over the years having the little voice in my head how many times that it’s whispered, “Who do you think you are to do that? Who do you think you are at 18 to move to a foreign city and go to university or to go traveling?” And I remember thinking about writing my first book after I’d started down this new pathway of coaching, and a few people said, “Oh you should write a book.”
Margie W:
And the voice in my head was, “Who do I think I am to write a book?” I mean, I’m just this not overly well educated girl from rural Australia, and didn’t ever study literature. I don’t know where the apostrophes go, I went to a very small school.
Margie W:
The only kid in my grade, my entire elementary school years. So, yes that little voice of who am I to do that is one that honestly in so much of my work and including my latest book is really in the words of Marianne Williamson, “Who are you not to do that?”
Warwick F:
Right, right.
Margie W:
“Who are you not to play big?” And playing small doesn’t serve the world, but that’s been a real act of courage on my part.
Warwick F:
No, absolutely. So, I mean, for some of us like me the expectations were pretty high. We had our huge Fairfax Media dynasty, and the benchmark was through the roof. They’ve taken me to be one of the great Fairfax’s, and I don’t know, do something incredible for the nation of Australia or that was sort of the benchmark.
Warwick F:
But I don’t know if it’s good or bad. It almost feels like the benchmark was set kind of low. It’s like do you feel like, “Hey mom, dad, you could’ve had a little bit higher expectations or maybe you found it freeing.” I don’t know. It showed on the other end of the spectrum.
Margie W:
You know what’s funny? And I’m going to chime in here, Warwick. When I realized who you were once we’d met, we’d had lunch together that day and I was like, “Oh, you’re Australian.”
Margie W:
And we had this lunch, and you said, “Oh my family’s in media.” I’m like, “Oh yeah, whatever.” I don’t know. Whatever. And then you gave me your card, and I got home that day, and I got it out, and I looked at your last name.
Margie W:
I’m like, “Oh my gosh, that’s Warwick Fairfax.” I was actually stunned, astonished, stunned because we’d had such a lovely time and everything. I grew up knowing your name.
Margie W:
I mean I grew up knowing your family name, and certainly in my late teens and 20s when your face was plastered all over Australia’s newspapers-
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Margie W:
… and all through the media, your name was … You couldn’t turn on the TV at night and your name would be on the television for a period there.
Warwick F:
Right.
Margie W:
And our worlds, our social worlds were literally opposite. I mean, I was sort of from a tiny little rural think for … Any Americans listening, I’m like from rural Mississippi, West Virginia or somewhere, and you are the Murdoch or the-
Warwick F:
Right. Exactly.
Margie W:
You’re just so big. And I was like, “Oh my God, I just met …” Our lives, that our paths even crossed.
Warwick F:
Right.
Margie W:
And so, yes, we grew up with different expectations.
Gary S:
And there’s something that’s interesting that you both said that does relate, I think, to crucible experiences, and I think our listeners can understand this. Margie, you talked about how you’ve heard or you heard that voice in your head say, “Who are you to do X, Y or Z?” And Warwick you had … I don’t know if it was a voice in your head, but it was a voice on the television saying, “You did this wrong.”
Gary S:
For listeners that have those voices in their heads telling them, “You can’t do this.” Or telling them, “You should do that instead of this.” What’s your advice to them to ensure that those voices don’t become crucible experiences in and of themselves?
Margie W:
Well, I would say and actually I’ve been writing about this in my new book that’s coming out next year is you’ve got to challenge those voices in your head, and do not treat the voices in your head as though they’re the truth. I believe they are really coming from that place of fear, which is wired into all of us to keep us safe, to protect us from failure, and humiliation, and rejection, and being exposed as unworthy, which I think a lot of people have a deep seated fear of being exposed, found out, is not good enough in some way. And I think it really requires really that mindfulness muscle of what these voices in my head, these self-doubts, that inner critic is what they’re saying isn’t the truth.
Margie W:
It’s not the truth. Don’t buy into this as the truth. And to challenge that, and to turn it on its head instead of, “Who am I to do this?” Yeah. “Who am I not to do this?”
Margie W:
Or you know what if you fail and what would people say? It’s like, “What would open up for me if I didn’t believe this? If I actually bought into the opposite of this?” And having the courage to defy that voice, I think is what is so crucial into avoiding a crucible experience in and of itself, of living our lives and not living the lives of significance we have it within us to live, because we’ve let that voice sit in the driver’s seat of our life, dictate our decisions, dictate our actions, and keep us living a much smaller life than honors us or serves the world.
Warwick F:
It maybe in your book, I seem to recall the phrase people living lives of quiet desperation. I don’t know. I could have sworn I read it there, maybe I’m thinking of somewhere else.
Margie W:
That’s a Thoreau line-
Warwick F:
Okay.
Margie W:
… I believe. And so, I think I paraphrased him-
Warwick F:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margie W:
… and I was just paraphrasing Thoreau. Some of us end up living our lives of quiet desperation, and Eleanor Roosevelt has a wonderful quote, and she said, “Most people tiptoe through life only to make it safely to death.” And as they tiptoed, they’re living lives of quiet desperation because they’re going to the grave with the song still in them. And-
Warwick F:
I mean, what’s amazing to me is you grew up in just this quiet life. It’s not like you had role models of your parents who were, “Let’s just bet it all. Let’s take big risks.” So, you’ve taken a very different path than you grew up in one sense, and everybody makes different choices, not to say that other people’s choices or your parents choices were wrong choices.
Warwick F:
I mean, everybody has to live their own lives, but what made you live a life of courage just ever since you grew up, going to college in Melbourne, and you just took a very different path your whole life?
Margie W:
Yeah. I have, and my mum and dad, I’m so blessed they’re still alive, 80 and 84, and still living in the little rural area I grew up, and I’m going to have Christmas with them, which will be beautiful. But one thing that I think, which is a deep value that’s guided me a lot is that Christian value actually. “To he who much is given, much is expected.”
Warwick F:
Right.
Margie W:
Now, you could say I wasn’t given much. I mean, we never had any money, but I was given gifts, not that I even knew what my gifts were, but also this sense of mum and dad have always donated the tiny little bits of money they had. They always donate heavily, whether it’s to the church or some charity or helping people in parts of the world that are far less privileged than even I was.
Margie W:
And so, this idea that we should live our lives for others, and do something good with our life that helps other people, and so that’s been guiding for me. How do I do something that I get a sense of purpose from that helps other people? And it’s interesting.
Margie W:
I have a sister who’s a doctor, I have a sister who is a physio, who’s now with the World Health Organization. A lot of us have actually done things that we’ve felt are in contributing to the world in some way. So I think that has been definitely a guiding force for me, not to be self centered.
Warwick F:
That’s interesting. It almost seems like rather than professionally how they live their life, it’s the values that your parents lived that perhaps most influenced you.
Margie W:
Yeah. Very much part of their community. My dad would always do lots of favors for everyone, and if they couldn’t afford it, “That’s fine. Don’t pay me.” That’s sort of who he is.
Margie W:
So, I think that definitely had an impact on me. I guess we all have different personalities too, Warwick, and I have an adventurous spirit. I love experiencing new places. I think I knew that I’d probably get easily bored if I stayed where I’ve grown up, and just by virtue of probably my personality, I’ve enjoyed living and experiencing a lot more of the world than I would have had I not left.
Margie W:
And I go back there, and I love going back there. So, it’s a very beautiful little place. It’s called Nungurner, where I grew up, which doesn’t even have a shop, and it still only has a … Actually, the school’s doubled in size.
Margie W:
It used to be one room and now it’s two. And I love going back there, but I think I knew that there was a whole lot of world out there that I was feeling called to go and live in, and explore, and experience, and be part of that I wasn’t going have that if I’d stayed in there. And I felt that again and again over my life. But I think about my second career.
Margie W:
My first one I studied business, and I worked in marketing, and then I decided that just wasn’t feeding me, and maybe that psychology, and then coaching, et cetera. But over my second career where I’m speaking, and writing, and coaching and everything, I love seeing the impact that using the tools that we learn can have on the lives of other people. That lights me up. It’s soul satisfyingly rewarding. And so, yeah.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I almost feel … Obviously you have a business and what have you, but it almost feels like it’s more of maybe a mission that you’re not doing this to build some empire. You’re doing this to help people, and in particular women who often, I think as you’ve written, maybe don’t always have … Sell themselves short, maybe don’t have the courage, don’t always stand up for themselves.
Warwick F:
It almost feels the word mission just comes to mind that-
Margie W:
Yeah, yeah. You’re right. And absolutely. I think that you’re correct. And it’s funny, even this latest book I’ve written, which isn’t just for women. And a lot of this, while I do a lot with women, I do a lot in general audiences and speaking at a lot of big conferences for big companies with often 70% men sometimes.
Margie W:
But I will say that even my latest book, it’s called, You’ve Got This!, And it’s the power of trusting ourselves. And I think about how, “Well, strategically I probably should have written a leadership book that would lead to higher speaking opportunities, and I probably should have a lot of people working under me, and then be leveraging my business for a lot more passive income.” All of these things.
Margie W:
I’m like, “Oh, I know I should from a profit maximization.” Or if I’m looking at through a commercial lens, there’s a whole lot of things I probably should’ve been doing that I haven’t been. But then I go, “Does that light me up? Do I want to do that?” I’m like, “No, it’s not lighting me up.”
Warwick F:
I’m sure people like with a lot of folks who have a coaching philosophy, it’s like you can have a whole Train The Brave coaching program in which you would license people as Margie Warrell licensed. I mean, I’m sure people have suggested that, and maybe that would work. It probably would.
Warwick F:
But do you want to have a thousand people trained in the certification program, and is that really what you want to do? It’s not wrong, but it may not be what you want to do.
Margie W:
And you know what? It’s funny. I was talking to someone about this yesterday who said that, “Oh, I could be doing that.” And I said, “I’m an empty nester in 12 months time, and maybe once I’m an empty nester, I’ll go.”
Margie W:
You know what? I have capacity for things that I haven’t had for 22 years as a mom where I really want to be around the kids more. But yeah, up until now when I’ve thought about that, it just hasn’t lit me up.
Margie W:
So, who knows what the future holds. Maybe that will be in the future, but it certainly just hasn’t been what I felt called to do up until now.
Warwick F:
I mean, I think this is important for the listeners to understand. I mean, there’s a few themes here, which is your motivation isn’t about building an empire or money. It’s about using the gifts and the passion that you have to help other people to help them not lead quiet lives of desperation, to live their life to the fullest, so that on their death bed they can say, “You know what? I’ve made mistakes, but I gave it my all, and I lived as full a life as I could possibly live.” Right?
Margie W:
Mm-hmm (Affirmative). Yeah.
Warwick F:
And that would be, and yeah, I mean we grew up obviously very differently, but that sense as I’ve mentioned in other podcasts, that sense of altruism. Fairfax Media was founded by a person of great faith. He built a huge empire, but he wanted to really have a newspaper that would be serve the colony as then was of Australia, and succeeding generations.
Warwick F:
There was a sense of altruism. I remember, I think my grandmother is reputed to have said, “When you have wealth and blessings like this, it’s almost like you’ve got dessert, but you have this obligation to serve other people.” So, that sense of serving others, that was certainly ingrained in my family. And so, yeah. I mean, I think your whole life you’ve been about helping other people.
Warwick F:
It’s just hard wired in you, which I think is, to me if you want to live a life of significance, a life that’s filled with joy, joy doesn’t come from building an empire, it comes from using your gifts to serve others. You clearly live a life of significance, I would have thought you probably a live a fairly joyful in the holistic sense of the word, if that makes sense.
Margie W:
Yeah. I’d like to think I have joyful moments. I have plenty where I’m like, “Ah.” As well.
Warwick F:
But in terms of the overall direction of what you’re doing with your life, it’s not like you said, “Oh, why am I doing this? Oh I should have just-”
Margie W:
And I think it’s such a tragedy when people just spend such a big part of their adult lives doing something that just brings them no joy. I mean, as you know, I don’t think it’s realistic that all of us are feeling joyful every moment of every day. But for some people, it’s like … Their work is just this dread, and I’m like, “That’s a really sad state to be in.”
Gary S:
Right. I want to grab something Warwick said a few minutes back when he pointed out that really the focus of a lot of your work, Margie, is women. And when I look back at the … We have all guests fill out a sheet that sort of identifies their crucible moments, and you talked about your crucible experiences.
Gary S:
And it’s interesting to me as I read the first couple of those that they are those that perhaps are most associated with women. Dealing with bulimia in your teens and 20s, men have bulimia as well, but I think we hear more about it with women. An armed robbery in Papua New Guinea, everybody is susceptible to that, but I think the bad guys will target women perhaps more than they’ll target men.
Gary S:
And then obviously losing your first child at 20 weeks being pregnant, do you think those crucible experiences, the fact that you are a woman who went through those things, is that maybe why you drifted in some way to really focusing your altruism and you’re wanting to help people to women?
Margie W:
Look, partly yes, but not entirely. I think I do a lot with women because as a woman and having now worked with thousands of women around the world, and thousands of men too. However, my experience is women are much more likely to underestimate themselves, and doubt themselves, and hold themselves back from putting themselves forward for things than men, and I know so much that.
Margie W:
I mean, our biology is slightly different, but how we socialize is different. And while we were in a stage now obviously, the world is changing, and I think girls today are growing up in a different environment that I grew up in. But that said, I think those social norms, and the penalty that we pay when we break out of the norms, and the expectations on women, and we want to be caregivers, and we hit this thing when we’re trying to have a career.
Margie W:
We go, “Oh it’s all too hard.” And I get that. I left the corporate space too. But I so often see women who really struggle with self belief, and worthiness, and I actually ran a program in Singapore yesterday with Oracle. 300 women from across Asia Pacific, and as I went around and I was talking to people, how many of those women kind of go, “Oh I don’t know if I’m ready for this bigger role.” And I find that less so in men who would go, “Oh I’m not sure I’m ready for a bigger leadership role.”
Margie W:
They’d be more likely to go, “Yeah. Bring it on. In fact, I was ready a year ago.” So, just these patterns and these tendencies. With that said, I will say Gary, I think all of us can be held back by fear in different shapes and forms, and I think sometimes for men it can show up differently too.
Margie W:
And Warwick, as you having read my book that’s coming out, I have a chapter in this on men because I think men can struggle with revealing their vulnerability. And sometimes where women have shame triggers around our bodies and how we look, men it can be around appearing weak, and not being strong-
Warwick F:
Right.
Margie W:
… and the pressure they feel. And so, I think that fear can show up in different ways.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I think that’s very astute. I think I’m sure your right from a woman’s perspective if a woman says, “Hey, I think I deserve a raise.” It’s like, “Oh you’re being kind of pushy.” Whereas if a man says that, it’s like, “Hey, good for you. You’re being bold.”
Warwick F:
And so, how do you navigate that I’m sure is challenging in a way that gets the job done. There’s no point pushing a trigger that gets the answer no. So, how do you do it in a way that gets the answer yes? Which is probably another whole conversation.
Warwick F:
But for men, admitting that you fail, admitting that you don’t have the answers, admitting that you’re clueless is a taboo. And so, you’ve got these male managers to pretend that they know everything, and that they have all the answers when they’re scared puppy dogs. I mean, that’s sort of the reality.
Warwick F:
I mean, you’re obviously married, you’ve got at least … How many sons do you have?
Margie W:
Three.
Warwick F:
Three.
Margie W:
Three sons.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Margie W:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
So, you’ve go a lot of experience. So, there are social norms for each, but I’d like to talk a bit about courage because I love your passion for that. It’s easy to say, “Be brave.” But we’re all-
Margie W:
It’s harder to do it.
Warwick F:
We’re all scared or just so many questions. It’s such a broad subject. I know for me, it’s knowing there are some areas where I don’t have to be brave in everything.
Warwick F:
I don’t know if this is on point or not, but it just occurred to me. I’m a reflective advisor type, I grew up in an intellectual family, but I’m not particularly athletic. And so, the stereotype for boys is you’ve got to be athletic.
Warwick F:
Well, I’m kind of not. You’ve got to be competitive. Well, I’m kind of not. I don’t really want to pulverize the next guy to the ground. It doesn’t excite me. It doesn’t turn me on.
Warwick F:
I mean, I’d rather have a conversation than stick their head in the mud. It just doesn’t really do it for me. And so, playing a round in golf or batting or being competitive, it’s the last thing I want to do.
Warwick F:
And so, I’ve had to come to terms with it’s okay not to be brave in the sense of playing a sport that I don’t enjoy and being competitive. I mean, it’s just what’s the point? Now, being brave in terms of Crucible Leadership, I don’t know if that makes sense, but part of it is avoiding stereotypes, and part of it is just picking your battles.
Warwick F:
Things that may be difficult, it’s okay not to take on things you don’t want to do just because. Like, “Oh I’m going to do bungee jumping just because it scares me.” Okay, great. But if you don’t want to do it, that’s okay, right?
Margie W:
Yeah. Well, I have something to say on that, and that is actually when the expectation is that you should be doing sport and whatever, then actually that can be an act of courage to go, “I don’t want to do this.” And risk the disapproval of those around you.
Margie W:
Like, “Really son? I always thought you’d become a star footballer like me.”
Warwick F:
Right. Exactly.
Margie W:
That’s an act of courage.
Warwick F:
Right.
Margie W:
And so, being who we really are and true to ourselves, that is courageous in itself. And the question I often ask people when we talk about being brave, and bold, and taking a risk or whatever it is, for the sake of what are you willing to do this or do you want to do this? Do you need to do this?
Margie W:
And for the sake of bungee jumping for instance like, “Wow, it really excites me and I think it’d be so much fun.” Great. Go out there and do it. Well, for the sake of, I don’t know. There’s got to be a compelling reason. There’s got to be a big why. Why would you do that?
Margie W:
And things that I did in my 20s that were brave, I don’t want to do them. I mean, I jumped out of a plane. I mean, I don’t want to do it anymore. It just don’t interest me, but at that time it was exciting when I was 19, 20 years old or whatever to do one jump, and then I decided that it was enough.
Margie W:
But I do think, for instance, building a business. If you want to build a business because that really calls to you and lights you up, fantastic because I really want to run a multi-million dollar empire. Great. Be brave and bold.
Margie W:
I don’t really want to do that, so why would I take those risks? It’s just not calling to me.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I love that phrase you said. Be brave for the sake of what? At least from my perspective, and I think we both share this is in some sense, helping other people. Making the world a better place.
Warwick F:
I mean, not everybody defines for the sake of what that way, but I think probably you and I do. Yeah.
Margie W:
Whatever is met, and I think this is where we’re all different, right? Some people want to sail a boat around the world, and some people want to create beautiful art, and some people want to build a big business, and that lights them up, and they want to come up with a better way of people communicating or traveling or whatever it is, and that uses their skills. They’re entrepreneurial, they love to create, they love to innovate, they love to … Or whatever.
Margie W:
And you think of Warren Buffett, he loves looking at the spreadsheets, and the P&L statements. He loves examining the books and going, “How can I make money out of this?” He’s gifted at that. He loves making the money.
Margie W:
He didn’t really know what to do with it all when he got it, so he’s given it away, that’s great, but that’s what he loved to do and he was good at it. I’m not actually that good at that. So, some people have gifts that will allow them to make a lot of money, and other people’s gifts maybe don’t make them so much money.
Margie W:
But I think the point is what is meaningful to you, and what’s meaningful for you and what you’re doing with Crucible Leadership has some similarities with what’s meaningful to me, but I also bring different strengths to bear, and different life experiences. So, what I’m doing is going to be different than what you’re doing or what the other 10,000 coaches are doing.
Warwick F:
And what I like about what you’re talking about is it’s got to be meaningful for you, but I think you said just a minute ago, it’s got to be linked to how you’re wired. I mean, there’s an intersection in there between being brave, feeling like it lights you up, but also feeling like it’s an area that you have some gifting, and passion, and experience. Does that make sense that there’s a linkage there?
Margie W:
Yeah. Absolutely. And to your point. I have three sons, and my youngest son absolutely loves football, rugby, in the mud, put their face in the dirt, and he’s good at it, and he loves it.
Warwick F:
Right.
Margie W:
My third child, my son Ben, not his thing at all, like you. Why? I just couldn’t think of anything much worse.
Warwick F:
Right.
Margie W:
And I’d like to think as a parent I’m like, “That’s great.” But-
Warwick F:
Exactly. They’re both fine.
Margie W:
That’s totally fine. The world doesn’t need everyone wanting to put people’s face in the mud.
Warwick F:
Right, right.
Margie W:
But we also need a world where not everyone is just sitting back and writing poetry. We need people to be out there … tails. And I remember Richard Branson a few years ago, I got invited to interview him on Necker Island down in the British Virgin Islands, and spending three days with him, and he’s a guy who obviously loves making things better, building businesses, making things better that lights him up. He’s really good at that, but there’s lot of things he’s not good at too.
Margie W:
And just recognizing the world doesn’t need a million Richard Bransons. Just like it doesn’t need a million of me. It needs each of us. It needs each of us to really use our own strengths in the best way, and whatever that is.
Margie W:
And so, I don’t ever kind of cast, “Well, you want to run a banking business that’s all about money?” There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s what your strength is, that’s what you’re good at.
Margie W:
Then the question is what do you do with that?
Warwick F:
Right, right. I think that’s well said. So, let’s talk a bit about your new book, You’ve Got This! I love this idea. You talk a lot about fear. Well, you have to talk about fear if you talk about courage, and I think you probably talk about fear in every book you’ve ever written, which make abundant sense listening to those naysayers or so-called friends that want to hold you back.
Warwick F:
But just this notion that I think you talked about you’ve got a lot of the gifts and the answers within us, within you if you’d only listen. Talk a bit about kind of what some of the core themes in your new book You’ve Got This! is.
Margie W:
Yeah. Well, the subtitle is The Life-Changing Power Of Trusting Yourself. So, I really dive into this concept of what it is to trust ourselves and to trust our innate capacity? To deal with each moment of life as it arrives.
Margie W:
And so much of the anxiety people feel particularly when they’re dealing with change, and uncertainty, and disruption is brought on because we are scared. We’re not going to have what it takes to deal with what’s coming at us, and a lack of trust also keeps us from pursuing the challenges, going after the challenges, starting the business, writing a book, whatever. The lack of self trust that we’re like, “I don’t know if I have what it takes to do what it is I really want to do.”
Margie W:
And so, there is an act of courage to go, to trust yourself, and to trust your capacity to handle things, and to rise above the challenges, and to figure it out even though right now you’re not sure how. And I know for me even having my fourth child, it was like, “Will I? Won’t I?” And I just was really like, “Margie, if you didn’t let fear that you wouldn’t have what it would take get in the way of you having a fourth child, what would you do?”
Margie W:
I’m like, “I would at least be open to the idea of having a fourth child.” And so, then a year later we had our fourth child, and it was busy, it was crazy, it was bedlam, it was different. But each day, and each hour, and each moment I’ve been able to figure out how to raise my four children and pursue my vocation outside of the home as well, which was actually often inside the home in those early days anyway.
Margie W:
But my point being that a lot of people don’t do what they feel called to do because they’re afraid they don’t have what it takes, and they’re afraid that they won’t be able to deal with the challenges that they think are coming.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. It could be listening to the naysayers within you or maybe the naysayers around you-
Margie W:
Around you.
Warwick F:
… is obviously you and I would know, and listeners in the US, maybe not. There’s this phrase ,”Tall Poppy Syndrome”, which is basically in Australia from my perspective. If you want to succeed in any area of life other than sports, you’re going to be cut down by your mates, and your family and friends, and there are other cultures that are a little bit like that, but it’s easy to have people say, “Oh come on, Margie. Really? You want to do this?”
Warwick F:
Or, “I don’t really see that.” And I’ve had that in my own life after the whole Fairfax Media thing went under. I was not in good shape. I mean, in the ’90s I was pretty despondent, miserable, and if you ask people, “What do you think Warwick is going to do with his life as well?” I don’t know. Probably not much.
Warwick F:
I’ve listened to, and these are well meaning people, but sometimes the voices within us and the voices around us, they don’t really serve our higher selves if you will.
Margie W:
Yeah. And I think that’s true. So, one is we’ve got to manage the internal critic, but we also have to be able to deal with the external critics or even those well meaning people who just say, “Oh you can’t do that.” And I wrote about that in my book where I really wanted to be a journalist, a TV journalist, and mum was like, “Oh but darling, you don’t read the paper.”
Warwick F:
Right.
Margie W:
You own the papers, Warwick, and we didn’t even get a paper. Literally. We’ve got a weekly paper for farmers and one for Catholics monthly.
Warwick F:
Right.
Margie W:
And so, we weren’t a family that sat around talking about what was going on on the news, and I mean mum was speaking from the very best of intentions. She just didn’t think I was someone who was into what was going on in the world enough, and I wasn’t an avid reader and all that stuff. So, I think we’ve got to be so careful about giving other people’s opinions more power than they deserve, and listen to other people’s opinions.
Margie W:
Just listen to the advice, see what resonates, but in the end trust yourself. Trust your own inner instinct, that inner sage, that inner voice that’s like, “You know what? This does feel right for me even if someone else is saying, “Really?””
Warwick F:
And to me, one of the things I’ve learned is there’s two aspects of that trust. One is trust the inner voice, and you’re so right. In scripture, it talks about that still small voice, which is really talking about the Lord, but in more general sense there is that quiet voice within you.
Warwick F:
Wherever it comes from that you need to trust, but also the way you approach things will be different than others. I mean, you’re probably, my guess is a bit more spontaneous and risk taking than I am, and that’s good. I mean, I think that’s great, but it’s like I can’t be that person.
Warwick F:
I’m more, other than when I do a billion dollar takeovers, other than that I’m normally fairly cautious. So, that one exception.
Margie W:
I’ve never done one of those myself.
Warwick F:
Well, it’s okay. You don’t add that to your Christmas list.
Gary S:
So, we’ve talked about how you guys are different here at the end, and Margie I’m going to introduce you to a phrase I use all the time with Warwick, “We got to know when to land the plane.” When it’s time to kind of come in for a landing, and we’re getting to that point. But I wanted to stress one thing for our listeners that if they were to listen to this from the beginning and just jot the words that came up the most, I think we’ve heard from Warwick significance a lot and we’ve heard from you, Margie, courage a lot.
Gary S:
And I think that’s a great place to end because it seems to me, and I’d love to hear your perspective on this, both of you, is it really possible to live a life of significance without courage? And is courage a noble goal to go after in pursuit of a life of significance?
Margie W:
I would say courage isn’t the goal, but it would be required at points along the journey. I don’t think that every day we may go, “Oh I have to do something bold and brave today.” However, I think as we pursue whatever it is that is meaningful and calls to us, there will be moments that we have to take the brave path over the comfortable one, and that will be required on our journey of forging a life of significance.
Margie W:
And sometimes that will be easier and sometimes that will be really hard, but I think there will be many moments in our journey that we have to choose that path of safe over fear, and courage over comfort.
Warwick F:
That’s absolutely well said. I’d say to live a life of significance, you have to have courage. You cannot get there without it, certainly for me and I’ve talked about this in earlier podcasts, there would be inflection points where I was working in some aviation services company doing finance and business analysis, and I started exploring coaching.
Warwick F:
Well, it took courage to then want to be certified and start coaching. Well, it took courage to want to write a book about something that was so painful that I avoided it for years. But then gee, if it can help other people, so I started it.
Warwick F:
It took courage to start Crucible Leadership or even a podcast because I’m a basically reasonably shy, reserved person. But you feel called to do something and you get the strength, but I guess the bottom line is that inflection points in your life in particular, that’s when you need the courage the most. Does that make sense? Is that your experience, Margie?
Margie W:
Oh absolutely. And that term inflection points I think absolutely. There’s those moments I was referring to, and sometimes we don’t know when they’re going to come. But there’s a part of us that goes, “Oh this is hard. This is scary, this is uncomfortable, and I risk falling short here.”
Margie W:
And it’s that moment of choice to go, “I will move forward and advance towards this for the sake of something that’s bigger than myself, and for the sake of whatever it is that’s calling me forward.”
Warwick F:
And that’s probably a good point to maybe wind this up is that for me, what motivates me is courage has to have fuel, and the fuel for me is the why, which I think you talk about. And for me, it’s life of significance, helping others. It’s whatever it is.
Warwick F:
If you find the fuel, you’ll have the courage, or at least you’ll have much greater possibility of having the courage. Does that kind of-
Margie W:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
… feel right?
Margie W:
And the why, and the why-
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Margie W:
… which is really synonymous for the sake of what.
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Margie W:
To really stick with the question and anyone listening to this, to stick with that question, how will I feel a year, five years, 10 years or in the twilight of my life from now, if I don’t do this? What am I putting at risk? What am I missing out on? And what might I one day regret if I don’t heed that voice, that call to courage? And I think that’s-
Warwick F:
And as you said in the words of Thoreau, you don’t want to live a life of quiet desperation. You don’t want to be that person.
Margie W:
And go to grave with the song still in you.
Warwick F:
Exactly right.
Gary S:
That is a very resonant note to land the plane on. Margie, where can listeners find out more about your book, about you, about your speaking, all of those things?
Margie W:
Oh thank you. Yes. Look, the best go-to place is just my website, MargieWarrell.com. M-A-R-G-I-E, because the way I pronounce my name and the way it’s spelled, for American listeners it could be different, but I’m sure you’ll provide a link.
Gary S:
And that is true for Warwick as well. I always tell people if you want to engage Crucible Leadership in LinkedIn, you go to @WarwickFairfax, and it’s with the W in the middle. W-A-R-W-I-C-K Fairfax. You can find us in LinkedIn. If you want to engage us at Crucible Leadership on Facebook, it’s at Crucible Leadership. And you can also visit us on the web at CrucibleLeadership.com.
Gary S:
Warwick, I’m usually the one that says goodbye, but I’m going to let you say goodbye to your good friend Margie. Margie, it was great spending time with you. Thank you for sharing your insights and work. Take it away.
Warwick F:
Well, Margie, thanks so much for being here. Your journey of courage is something I’ve always admired. It’s actually been inspirational to me and in my own journey, so yeah. Just helping women and men have courage, to be bold, you can’t preach it enough if you will because you might be brave today, but tomorrow the voices come back.
Warwick F:
So, every day you got to wake up again and say, “Okay. I’ve got to be courageous again.” So, thank you for your life’s work. It’s so important. So, we appreciate you being here.
Margie W:
Well, I’m just delighted our lives, our paths have also crossed, so thank you again. It’s been an honor.
