Justice Denied, But She’s Still Pursuing It: Kristin Louise Duncombe
Our guest this week, Kristin Louise Duncombe, describes this week the horror of the molestation she suffered as a preteen girl at the hands of an American diplomat who was also her best friend’s father.
Even after her abuser was exposed, he was not brought to justice by the American government for decades — and still, to this day, never for his abuse of Kristin. That’s why she’s still fighting to bring her story to light.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
It all came pouring out that, in fact, I wasn't the only victim. There was girls throughout the community that he had been molesting on a regular basis as he had been doing to me, and an investigation was conducted, and six months later, the State Department said, "Case closed."
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Kristin Louise Duncombe, describing the horror of the molestation she suffered as a preteen girl at the hands of an American diplomat who was also her best friend's father. Even after her abuser was exposed, he was not brought to justice by the American government for decades, and still to this day, never for the abuse of Kristin. That's why she's still fighting to bring her story to light.
Warwick Fairfax:
Kristin, thank you so much for being here. I really enjoyed learning about you and reading one of your books, and it's an honor to have you. So I'm just going to give just a brief introduction so people will know a little bit about you. So Kristin is Kristin Louise Duncombe. She is an author, therapist and coach. She's done in addition to therapy, she's a therapist, does couples counseling, life coach and is an author who's lived in Europe since 2001, currently in Paris at the moment.
She's written a number of books, including Trailing: A Memoir, Five Flights Up and her most recent book, OBJECT: A Memoir. And we're going to be spending a lot of time focusing on the background to OBJECT and that book. So I just launch in and we often ask people, so what was life like before The Crucible? Or what was the background? And your Crucible was at such an early age, it's hard to really answer that question, but just talk about what life was like for you, because you grew up, I guess, as a child of somebody in the US diplomatic service. So just talk about what was life like for young Kristin?
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
What I can tell you is, well, two things. One, that person that I was is still very much here and who that person was, I was a super anxious child. I had all sorts of anxiety disorders that, this was the late seventies before everyone was sort of savvy about therapy and people didn't take their kids for diagnoses. So none of this was diagnosed. But what I can tell you, looking back at all the symptoms, is that I had emetophobia, which is the fear of throwing up. I had hypochondria, which is the fear of disease. This is at a very young age, 7, 8, 9. I already had all those problems. I also had a tic disorder, so I would sit there in class and became the ridicule of so many classmates doing things like this just compulsively.
So I was an extremely anxious child, and I was quietly creative because as a kid I was a voracious reader and I dreamed of writing books, and that was always my objective.
But then after the various things took place in my life that I think we'll go on to talk about in greater depth in this interview, happened, I think that I developed a very big persona, I think, and who knows, maybe I would've developed that persona anyways, I don't know. But I think that for me, one of the results of the things that I went through as a child, and we haven't named it yet in the interview, but dealing with childhood sexual abuse, is that I learned to disguise the anxiety.
As a younger child, having all of that free-floating anxiety, I found things to focalize it on. I'm going to throw up. I'm afraid someone's going to throw up, or I think I have leukemia, or all the things that I went through as a kid. But then once I was actually a little bit older and in this situation where I was being regularly abused by my best friend's father, suddenly there was something very concrete to be anxious about. And I think that I coped with that by becoming a character.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about that abuse, that sexual abuse that you suffered, which obviously is the focus of your latest book, OBJECT. So just talk a bit about what happened, how it happened, just what country were you in when all this happened? So yeah, just talk a bit about that.
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Yeah, yeah. And I'm always happy to talk about it because I feel that... And just disclosure, I'm not about to say something extremely graphic, but one of the things that I am bothered by is how language masks the reality of what we're dealing with. And so to tell you the full story, when I was 10 years old, that's when my family moved to West Africa, to the country called the Ivory Coast, Cote d'Ivoire, and the US Embassy community there was very small, very close-knit. This again was before all the major security problems and everything.
So you could just sort of walk into the embassy. There was the Marine Guard there, and it was just a totally different life. So a small, close-knit community. I went to the international school, I went to fifth grade, met this girl who was also a new student. Her name was Rose, another American kid whose dad was one of the diplomats at the embassy.
So my parents got to know their parents. The name of this person in question that I'm about to tell you about is William Mulcahy. So William Mulcahy was a senior diplomat with USAID, and he was my best friend, Rose's, father. And their family, the Mulcahy family was an Irish Catholic family from Massachusetts, lots of children. Rose was the baby. She was the last child still at home. And because, as I was saying, I was the middle child in my family of three, I think I kind of got lost in the shuffle sometimes. When the doors were thrown open at Rose's house that I could just go hang out there as much as I wanted, I went. Rose and I became inseparable, best friends. And it was something that I yearned for, especially after the earlier years of having been anxious and kind of bullied at school back in the States and all of that.
So early into my friendship with Rose, her father, who was a very, very jovial, popular, well-loved community member, everyone loved Mr. Mulcahy. He was like the quintessential grooming pedophile, because everyone was wrapped around his finger. He started molesting me. And when I say molesting, what I mean is that I was 10 and he was a 50-year-old man who would regularly at any moment come up and put his hand down my pants or put his hand up my dress, or put his hand in my bathing suit and do what he was moved to do.
And the reason I'm specifying that is that I think that one of the things that became so much part of the mental, I don't even know what to call it, but the mental game that happened to me as a child is that it could literally happen at any moment. For example, in my book, there's a scene where Rose and I are making pancakes, and he comes home, and Rose's mom is having a migraine.
So he sends Rose just to the back of the house to give the aspirin and some tea. And just in that brief amount of time, he came at me and he did his thing. But maybe that endured 20 seconds and then it was over. Then there was other moments where he had more free access to me, like driving me home from a sleepover date with Rose, where he could take things further. But it's just to say that I lived with this constant uncertainty about what is going to happen next. And the reason I'm clarifying that is because what I was saying earlier about, there's still sort of a shy, nervous child here, but that child also kind of became a character. Both parts, both of those parts of me are real, and there's no way for me to know, if all of that hadn't happened with Mr. Mulcahy, how would I be today? Maybe I would just simply be a nervous wreck. I don't know.
But I really got accustomed to shape-shifting, because when he would do those things to me, I would go just frozen and let him do it. And then the minute someone came back into the room, "Let's flip pancakes, it's your turn." And so that becomes a coping mechanism that has benefits and disadvantages. The benefit is, because of course, I still have some of that capacity to shape-shift in my life today, and it means I can just show up for a podcast. I'm not nervous. I know that I can show up and get along and it will be okay, and it's all sincere. I'm not trying to suggest that-
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I get it.
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
But the part of that capacity to shape-shift and really just fit well into any situation that can be a disadvantage is when you actually need to have a stricter boundary, and you're so adept at just breaking into role that you lose sight of, "No, no, no, I shouldn't be shape-shifting here. I should be saying no." And so that is something that in my adult life I have had to really learn how to do, how to stop accommodating and shape-shifting so much.
Warwick Fairfax:
So how long did this go on for, this abuse by this man?
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
The abuse? The abuse went on for two years. It stopped when I was 12. And I mean really just to drive the point home, the Mulcahy family was very good friends with my family. So we would have Thanksgiving together, Christmas, New Year's, things like that. And oftentimes the molestation, it would just be happening under the table while we were all having family time. So it was very confusing. And then what happened is that he, Mr. Mulcahy molested another child, a new kid that had just arrived at post. And what was pieced together later is the reason she told on him was because she hadn't been there long enough to know of his great reputation and everyone loved him and all of that.
Because what came out after this girl, it was a 10-year-old girl, told on him, her father immediately went to the security people at the US Embassy, who I think did act appropriately insofar as they took the allegations seriously and they sent him back to Washington. He was sent back to Washington in a matter of three days. He had three days to close up his life. But what was totally inappropriate, and this is really the crucible that I'm with today, is that no one in the community, including his own wife, was told the truth about why he was leaving.
The story that was spun was that he had been given this big promotion and was needed in Washington and it was urgent, and he needed to be there in three days. So overnight, the community rallied around the Mulcahy family, helped them pack up, sell their car, get rid of everything else, and then we drove in a convoy. It was a convoy of six or seven cars of families, so devastated that the beloved Mr. Mulcahy was leaving. There was a champagne toast for him at the airport.
And then off they went, Mr. Mulcahy, his wife and his 12-year-old daughter, Rose, my best friend. And a few days later, it all came pouring out that, in fact, I wasn't the only victim. There was girls throughout the community that he had been molesting on a regular basis as he had been doing to me. And an investigation was conducted. And six months later, the State Department said, "Case closed." They said, "We need to protect William Mulcahy's civil liberties. He has diplomatic immunity," and at the time, at least in the United States, there's no federal law against pedophilia, so there isn't even a crime to charge him with.
So he did not lose his job. He was not prosecuted. His family continued to not get the information about, or his wife, I should say, about what he was actually up to, because jumping around in the story, 22 years later, he was finally stopped.
By then he had retired from the Foreign Service and was serving as a Eucharist Minister on Cape Cod, Massachusetts in charge of the children's program. And he was caught red-handed raping an 8-year-old girl. And that is when he was finally arrested. And then there was an opportunity to, for all of us victims, from way back when to discuss and liaise, and to expose what had actually happened because everything had been kept silenced and under wraps. And anyways, this is a very long-winded way of saying, so as it turns out, several of his own children, including my friend, Rose, were long time victims at his hands, and everyone was just under the cult of silence.
Warwick Fairfax:
So I'm thinking, when did your parents find out? And I think from my understanding, they tried to do something. And I'm curious, did you ever talk to your friends, that you're thinking, gosh, maybe they were molested or was, it kind of sounds like, I guess two different questions, but when did your parents find out and what they did do?
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
So my parents found out the night that the Mulcahys left. We took them all in this convoy to the airport. They left. And that night, sometime that afternoon, I mean I was an oblivious 12-year-old, so I don't know the exact details of how it happened, but after they were on the airplane flying back to the states, the security officer at the US Embassy notified the various families that he knew were in the Mulcahys sphere and said, "There's been this allegation, check it out in some way, shape or form with your child or your children." And so all around the community that night, parents were having conversations with their children, and that's when the truth came out.
It was that night that I said to my parents, because they couldn't believe it. The way they even set up the conversation with me was, "It's so awful. Poor Mr. Mulcahy, he's such a lovely man. It's so awful that someone would accuse him of this. You wouldn't know anything about it, would you?" And I told them, that night, I told them everything and it was a major crisis in the community.
Warwick Fairfax:
Did they believe you?
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Oh, they believed me immediately. They believed me immediately. But it was so emotionally violent, it was actually for me, when I think about that trauma in my life, and I know this might sound a little bit strange, but for me, the almost bigger trauma than that ongoing thing that I was in with Mr. Mulcahy, was when it was all exposed and the limelight was on me, and it was being named what he had been doing to me and what I had been enduring and how awful it was and how disgusting and how perverted, and that was so incredibly traumatic. It was deeply humiliating.
It was, the same thing was happening to other girls in the community. So yes, then we had to have these community meetings where the focus was on what he had done to us, it was just extremely humiliating. And my parents, along with some of the other parents and the doctor at the US Embassy tried to fight back to get some sort of resolution to... And no one was thinking in terms of money, nothing like that at that time. The focus was, wait, he's not going to be prosecuted? So they did try to fight back.
And I have in my files printed out, in an old manila envelope, I have copies of some of the cable telegrams that went back and forth because this was 1982. As you know, I don't even think there was faxes yet. It was all a totally different... But what happened is, is that the State Department told the adults, and that includes my parents, and excuse my language, but I'm just going to say it, "Just shut up and fucking move on because he is not going to be prosecuted. And your role as US diplomats is to represent your country with a good attitude. Move on."
And that is what happened. And I personally, now this many years later, I'm in touch with many of the victims from the time, and everyone's got their own reaction to what happened.
I personally am not angry with my parents for not doing more because I understand how a silencing happens. Sometimes people say, "I can't believe your parents didn't do blah, blah, blah, and they should have done blah, blah, blah." But I feel like that is the attitude of someone that thinks it's easy to be A, a whistleblower and additionally to be a whistleblower when your entire life is dependent on the person you're supposed to be blowing the whistle against. So it's quite a parallel. I felt like I had to just go along with what Mr. Mulcahy said, because who would believe me? He was Santa Claus at the Ambassador's Christmas party.
Everyone loved him. He was so popular, and the complicating facts, even I loved him. He was like the jolly, nice... It was a very confusing and complicated thing.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean, it's such a horrific story. I mean, the actual abuse is horrific, but the lack of justice, as I think you've mentioned, feels worse. There are lifelong consequences from abuse, but I think as you've indicated, there's as much lifelong consequences when nothing is done, obviously, whether it's a state department or the church or certain religious denominations or probably other organizations, Hollywood, you could pick your institution. It's widespread and people want to cover things up for... It's like they're more concerned with saving their institution than doing what's morally right.
I want people to understand just the gravity of what you went through in the life altering consequences, because you write in your books and in your first memoir, Trailing, it just felt like, I think you say that in your current book, that you were left feeling extremely unimportant. And the self-image. And so that played itself out in relationships with men. And so just talk about how the consequences weren't just the abuse itself, which is bad enough, but the sense of what it did to your sense of self-agency and self-image. So just talk... Because that played out over the next 20 years with marriage and being in Africa, and just talk about that journey.
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Yeah, no, I mean it's such an important question, and I thank you for the opportunity to speak to it because I think that for me, the major consequence of the abuse and then how it was handled, the cover-up in this message that what happened to those girls doesn't matter, but what happens to him does matter.
We have to protect his civil liberties, because I have a letter where my dad said, "But what about the civil liberties of the children?" It's like it just didn't exist. We didn't have those liberties. No, I just think that for me, the major consequence, as I was describing earlier, is I learned early how to get along. I learned how to... Yeah, the best way to say it is to shape-shift, to show up and be able to make any situation okay, to be able to join with people easily, to be able to fit in, even if it's not a fit.
And what that meant for me as I turned into a teenager and then a young woman, and all the politics, the things that play out between men and women started, is that I... The easiest way for me to say it is I would get chosen, and I thought, "Well, if you choose me, then I have to make your choice worth it." I never thought, "Well, okay, you are choosing me, but am I choosing you?" Because I was totally outside of myself. I was living... And the reason I call the book OBJECT, is that at a certain moment, and I think this happens to a lot of girls and women, even if they haven't been sexually molested that way, but just because of the way society is and with all the pressure on what you look like in being sexy and appealing and all of that, I lived not as the subject of my own life.
And I like to clarify that when you're a subject, you are functioning from the inside out. You're inside yourself looking out and deciding, "What do I think about that thing or that person, or what do I want? What do I desire?" And you're staying oriented towards what you want. I functioned as an object. An object is outside of themself, constantly looking at themself to figure out how do I appear in this moment? Do I appear pleasant? Do I appear accommodating? Do I appear sexy? Do I appear nice and generous and kind?
And it's all about appearances. And so what happened for me is that I allowed myself to be chosen over and over and over again, and ended up in one relationship after another that I didn't really want to be in. Not trying to make it sound like everyone I was involved with was a horrible monster. No, I fortunately got chosen by some nice people, but I did also get chosen by some pretty horrible people too. And my teenagehood and my young adult life is largely characterized by rolling from one dysfunctional relationship to the next. And in each relationship, what I was doing was just trying to accommodate.
Warwick Fairfax:
What's interesting about your story is, you felt like you were an object in which your choice, your viewpoints were irrelevant. An object doesn't have choice. It's an object.
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Right, no, an object has no choice.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so therefore, your goal was to be, in this case, whatever the guy wanted you to be, and what would appeal to him, and personality, dress, everything. And your choice didn't matter. So if somebody liked you, then you had to make them happy. And with your husband, is it Tano-
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Tano. That's not his real name, but the reason I gave him that name in all of my books is that he's Argentinian. And for anyone that knows Argentina, you know the Argentines, they give people nicknames.
El Tano means the Italian, like so many Argentinians, he's from an Italian... Yeah, so he's Italian. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
I'm with you. And so as you paint him, he wasn't like this horrendous person. He had issues, but I think that's probably fair. But the point is not so much him, but as you're getting to know each other and the US and New Orleans, and it's like he's older and he wants to be this medical doctor in Africa in different places, which is a very noble thing. And you had a degree in counseling. It's like, well, how do I do that there? And I don't know, he says, "It'll be fine so long as we're together." I think it's probably every third page that he says that, which it's not bad in of itself, but there's a context of the comment. And so it just felt like it could have been anybody else. It didn't have to be Tano, it could be whoever, but it's just like my choice and my career and my interests don't matter.
But there was another episode in which it feels like you are becoming more stronger and more your own advocate, and this is obviously after the book was published, the original book, when you were going to take your kids on a cross-country trip in the US, because you were more present, your husband was running around the world doing laudable work, but you were the caregiver who was there 24/7 with your daughter and son. And so naturally they gravitated to you and your stories and history and family, and you wanted to take your kids on a cross-country trip, and your husband said, "Well, I'm not going to the US." It's like that seemed to be the straw that broke the camel's back.
And for somebody who's a people pleaser, it's like, not this time. So it felt like, I don't want to say a breakup is never a victory, but in terms of your own development, standing up, it felt like it, it was a huge victory for you, for Kristin. So just talk about that episode and what that says about who you are becoming at that moment.
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Yeah, no, it's such a great question. And so just to give a little context for the listeners, because what we're talking about is my first book ends with us reunited, me and my husband because in the first book we split up because he's having an affair and the whole thing, and we are reunited in Paris, and we make our home here. But my second book, which I didn't send to you, but it has to do with when he wanted me to become a trailing spouse again, and I said no. So already I had found a new sense of... I mean, I think one of the best things that actually happened to me is that affair that he was having early in our relationship because that was so unacceptable, it forced me to get, excuse my language, get some balls and be like, "I'm not putting up with this crap."
And that's when I took our daughter, she was two at the time, and I left him and I came to Paris, blah, blah, blah. In the middle of the two books that you're referring to, I refused to become a trailing spouse again until I get worn down and I become a trailing spouse again. But there's some other interesting lessons that happen in that book. And the third book that, it starts with this scene that you're talking about when my kids are at an age where they just are so interested in travel and they want to know more about the United States, because for them, the United States is Washington once a year to go see my parents, and my daughter had studied in her history class in French school, they had studied the American dream.
And so we had talked about Jack Kerouac. And anyways, that's where the idea came from, that we could take this great American road trip. And the straw that broke the camel's back is that when I asked my husband if we could plan this, his answer was that I was out of my mind that I would ever expect him to give a single dime ever again to the evil United States of America. And then he said, "Because look what they just did in Afghanistan." And then he cited this thing that had happened in Afghanistan, which admittedly was horrible, but it was one of those things, it's like, "How is that my fault?" It's not my fault that the US government bombed Kunduz, Afghanistan. It is simply not my fault.
And I think that that fury of being made responsible for something, and that I had been for all the 20 years we were together, he made me responsible for things like that. It finally just was too much, and I just snapped. I had never... The night that I told him I wanted to separate, that was not planned.
I had not been thinking of it. I mean, deep down, for many, many years I had been thinking, "This is so not the life and the relationship I want to be having," but I never ever thought that I could leave. And that literally just came out. And it's so amazing. I don't know if this is an expression or if I just think it's an expression, but sometimes when I talk about this, I say, it's like how the expression goes, the worst part was saying it, saying, "I want to separate. I cannot do this any longer." Once I said that, I was filled with relief.
Warwick Fairfax:
So I want to talk about how you have evolved since, because there are lifelong consequences from abuse and being felt like unimportant, and the scars never go away, but you learn to deal with them and hopefully improve. And obviously you counsel a lot of people, so you know all this better than I do. But where would you say you are now in terms of your own agency, self-respect, where you are, because probably a spectrum from object to subject, from I'm fully worthy to I'm fully unworthy. Where would you say you are on your healing journey now, what's Kristin [inaudible 00:35:22]-
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
That's such a great question and I'm going to answer it totally honestly, I've already kind of alluded to it. So I think that I'm mentally and emotionally healthier than I've ever been because I feel safe with myself. I feel centered in myself. I feel very much like the subject of my own life. But as I was referring to a moment ago, I feel like I haven't tested this new me out there in the choppy waters. For example, and it's fun to say this too, in speaking to two men, I think I'm a little bit afraid of men. I don't mean afraid like, "Oh, I'm going to get jumped." I'm afraid of that too. But I don't know how the new me would be in a dating context. And I guess I'm a little bit afraid to try, which I should clarify.
And if anyone reads my book OBJECT, they'll get a nice big dose of what it means to be newly on the apps post long, difficult marriage, because I did do all the apps.
And that's really what launched me into my main healing journey is because I got out of my marriage and I started dating, and oh boy, it was like I regressed right back to where I left off, and there I was getting chosen like crazy and just accommodating. And there was part of that that was great, how wonderful to feel desired and wanted and solicited after many years of feeling unimportant, et cetera.
But I learned a lot in those years of dating. And what I learned is the model that I am in with men that I'm dating, it's not a healthy one. And that's when I really stepped back and have really taken years now just to be on my own and to not find any sense of my value or my worth coming from my desirability to men, which for me is big and important because so much of my self-worth came from feeling like a successful object, but now I'm getting older, and I would like to date, but I just don't quite know how to manage all of that.
Gary Schneeberger:
I want to take another run at the question that Warwick asked you three minutes ago. In the context of what we say a lot at Beyond the Crucible, because dare I say, before I ask this question, I will say, you are the first guest I'm going to ask this question to that I don't know what the answer's going to be.
We have a thing that we say about crucible experiences. They didn't happen to you, they happened for you, because guests will talk about the lessons that they learned from the trials and tragedies and traumas they've gone through have helped them as they've moved forward in their life. And as you're talking about this, how would you answer that question? Are you at a place, have you arrived at a place, will you ever arrive at a place, where you look at the things that you've described so far in this episode, the things that you've lived through, that you've written about, that it didn't happen to you, it did indeed happen for you in some way?
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Assuming I'm understanding the question because my answer is going to probably sound very quick to just agree with that. But yeah, I think it's already totally happened. Everything that's happened to me in my life, I feel like, "Oh, well, that was a good story." And ultimately I am a storyteller. And so I feel that the material that my life has brought me is something that I have been able to use to make, A, as a writer, I've been able to use it to make sense of the story, but just more largely as a person, I feel that those things happened for me because they have allowed me to tell my story. Just digressing a little bit, but I think it fits. One of the best compliments I ever got, and I will never forget this, I hold it so close to my heart, came from a writer that I very much admire and who was a mentor for me when I was learning early, in the early days of learning how to put a book together.
And he said to me, he's like, "The thing that you have going for you is that you run straight into danger, and that's how you get a good story to tell." And he said, "So your problem isn't lack of story, but you run so quickly into every danger zone, you have too much story. So you have to figure out what's the main story line."
But to add something to that, I think that for me, this idea of it happening for you, I think what I'm still figuring out now is how to feel, I hate to use this word, but for lack of a better one, how to feel entitled to insist that the stories I have to tell are important. Because in particular, this one about the State Department covering up this Mr. Mulcahy's abuses and what that led to, by covering up his crimes, they paved the way for him to rape and molest children for another 22 years.
That's serious. There's a whole trail of victims, and something that has been extremely hard for me in terms of feeling important and continuing to feel like that I have the confidence to keep talking about my book and to keep promoting it, is that I feel like the mainstream press has not treated my story with any importance. I tried to get a mainstream publisher, I was told across... I got lots of requests from agents, expressions of interest, but everyone told me, and this is why my Substack is called a Dime a Dozen, and the reason it's called a Dime a Dozen is one agent told me sexual abuse stories are a dime a dozen. And if you are not famous, and if you don't have a major platform, no one's going to buy the book. So for that reason, passing. And that message is-
Warwick Fairfax:
Is sexual abuse in the State Department a dime a dozen?
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
That's what I say.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, [inaudible 00:43:44].
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
And so now I'm beyond the publishing part of it because the book is out there now, I just did it myself, but I continue to write to different newspapers in either... Every time there's a letter or every time there's an article in a newspaper where you can write a letter to the editor, if it's something related to abuse, me too, if it fits, I write. My letters never get chosen to be published. I understand, there's thousands of people in writing, so I'm not such a prima donna that I think, "Oh, you should be choosing me." But I've also written heads for papers, don't get any feedback.
I've contacted reporters at certain specific papers to say, "Hey, I'm sitting on this story. Don't you think this could be an important story?" And no one is interested. And every time that happens, every time I get a rejection or get ignored, and that's the thing in this business, you don't quite know when to conclude that you're just being ignored because some people, you write to them and then three weeks later they do write back to you.
But some people you write and then you never hear from them ever again. So it's like you don't even know what the parameters are. Like, have I been ignored? Have I not been ignored? But every time I have to grapple with this stuff, the thing that still lives inside of me is, "Oh, I feel unimportant and I feel deflated." And then I have to find it in myself to just say, "Okay, well, you know what, that's how you feel, and that's fine, you can feel that way, but you have to proceed anyways."
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean, that's to me, the ultimate shift, I mean, at least from my perspective, I'm a person of faith. So in my paradigm, I think it's true of many religious philosophies and to my Christian faith, like Psalm 139, we're wonderfully and created by God. We have inherent value as human beings, we are worthwhile, we are very valuable. And I think there'd be other religious and philosophical ways of thought. So to me, I know what I'm saying sounds obvious, but self-worth can never come from another human.
Good marriages, as you know, you do a lot of counseling, happen when both parties feel that they have inherent self-worth and they're not looking for somebody else to validate their self-worth. That's not... They like them, like being with them, but they don't need validation from anybody because they believe they're inherently valuable. And I believe everyone in the planet is inherently valuable.
So you have value within yourself no matter what the state department or the journalists do or don't do. And doesn't mean, sometimes it's not about you want to win, but the fight itself is worthwhile. The fight means, and I know you know this, you're standing up for other young girls, or sadly young boys who are abused. If you save one person-
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Because there were some boys in that as well.
Warwick Fairfax:
If you save one person, it's worth it, right? If you help one person who is now an adult, have a better tomorrow than they had today and have a couple more ounces of self-worth, I know you know this. That's why you're in the fight, if you will, to help people. But that kind of make sense, is that you probably do it in your counseling, helping people understand that you cannot find self-worth in another person. It has to come from within, whatever that means to you. Does that kind of make sense? And sometimes-
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Oh yeah, totally. But I mean, I think it's so interesting because for myself, I feel that it's a new type of self-worth that I have, that what I am actually pissed about and what I want, because I just feel that it would help me. I think it would make me feel better. I would like an acknowledgement from the State Department. That's all I want. I want an apology and an acknowledgement that they did wrong by a community of girls. And that's one of the reasons-
Warwick Fairfax:
And they've never done that.
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
No, no, no, no, no, no, nothing. 10 years after the cover-up took place when I was having a series of mental health problems, I was 22 years old. Another sexual abuse story took place where my parents were posted at that time in Nigeria. It wasn't the US diplomat, it was one of the Nigerian guards. He molested a little boy and he was fired and the family was repatriated, and there was a whole big thing. And my mother went to the person in charge of the investigation and she said, "So what's the deal? This happened in my family 10 years ago, and we were told to just shut up and move on, and now my daughter's having all these problems, blah, blah, blah." And when she did that, next thing you know, they were giving her a name and a number, and they said, "Well, tell your daughter to get in touch with this person at the State Department because they will pay for her therapy."
So the story's a little bit more complicated than that, but I had to fill out, what's called a tort claim where I had to quantify the number of times Mr. Mulcahy did X, the number of times he did Y, the number of times he did Z. And I sent that in, and a couple of weeks later, I received a check in the mail for $20,000 to cover the cost of therapy. That was in 1992.
Warwick Fairfax:
This wasn't a gag or they weren't asking you to be silent for that, were they?
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
No, they were. What they said is that by accepting that money, I would go away and stop bothering them.
Warwick Fairfax:
Did you take it?
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Oh yeah, I took the money.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay, okay.
You didn't have to sign something-
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Now you're trying to bother them. I consider it, and I mean, I am not a lawyer, clearly, but I consider it all null and void because now the years have gone on, and I think, "You jerks, this 22-year-old kid who was in major mental breakdown, and you give her 20,000 bucks, which was nothing compared to what that guy did-"
Warwick Fairfax:
Just to pay her off basically.
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
So that she'll go away. I mean, it's a sobering story. I guess you've already answered this, but when people say, "Who is Kristin now?" Can you say, "Well, what happened to me did not defeat me. I'm still here and I'm not living my life as a victim? Doesn't mean I'm a hundred percent whole, whatever that means." But how would you characterize yourself as somebody who said, "This is tragic, but-"
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Well, okay, so now I'm going to throw a curveball in and we don't need to get into the details of it, but it's just to say, I mean, that is a big, huge story in my life, but it's not like the only bad thing that's ever happened to me. So I don't even think of the sexual abuse as like, that is the one singular thing that makes my life difficult. No, I think that it's one of several complicated things that I've had to deal with in my life, one of which is what we started with. I mean, moving countries every couple of years also creates a complicated, I mean many wonderful things about it as well.
But no, I have never felt like I'm just hopelessly damaged, nothing like that. But I think what was complicated for me is, how to say this, the damage, if I can use that word that has been inflicted or that has manifested in me, is also my strength. So the parts about me that I think are good and help me have a relatively happy and successful life in spite of difficulties, it's also the stuff that sprang from difficulty.
Warwick Fairfax:
And that's the thing that, just to elaborate on what Gary was saying earlier about it didn't happen to you, it happened for you. I mean, we have had many guests with quadriplegic, paraplegics, abuse, and we've had a number of people say things that I find psychologically incomprehensible. They're saying they're grateful. I mean, we had a woman, Stacey Kopass, who dove into an above-ground pool in the suburbs of Sydney. She was diagnosed as a quadriplegic and she had suicidal ideation, substance abuse, everything you would expect, and her truth, and look, I'm not here to argue with her truth, it's her life, her story, she says, "Yeah, I was some athletic, carefree girl, and the person I'm now, a speaker, consultant, coach wouldn't be the person I'm now." And she says she's actually grateful for it.
I find that incomprehensible, but she's not the only one who said that. When more than one people say that, it's hard to say, "Well, you are wrong. You can't be grateful." It doesn't mean that she's glad that it happened. It doesn't mean that somebody's lost a loved one. It doesn't condone what happened.
Gary Schneeberger:
I am going to jump in and do what I do at the ends of episodes. I try to guess when I think Warwick's asked kind of a second to last question, but I also want to make sure, Kristin, that I give you the opportunity that listeners and viewers can find you on the internet because you are a counselor and they can learn both more about your books, but they can also learn about your counseling services. Let people know where they can find you on the worldwide web.
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
So the easiest way to find me is to just type my name in, Kristin Duncombe or Kristin Louise Duncombe, either works and instantly a bunch of things will come up, including my website, which is KristinDuncombe.com.
Gary Schneeberger:
And help people who may not be champion spellers how to spell both of those words.
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
K-R-I-S-T-I-N D-U-N-C-O-M-B-E, Duncombe, Kristin Duncombe.
Gary Schneeberger:
Excellent. Warwick, last question or two questions that are as usual as always yours.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Kristin, there might be somebody who is listening today and maybe today's their worst day. Maybe they're being abused, maybe they've felt othered, if you will, that they don't matter. They don't have any self-worth and they're just an object. And I mean, you can feel an object without abuse. There's different levels of abuse, different levels of challenges, but somebody that feels either abused or that they really don't matter. They're just an object. What would a word of hope be to that person?
Kristin Louise Duncombe:
Okay, so I think that question's a little bit complicated because of course it's so case-by-case what feeling that way could feel like to any person. So what I would say, just sort of generally speaking to anyone who's struggling with just their sense of self. I would say, you know what? It's awful and scary when you feel so blue, you don't have to figure this out right now this moment, it is okay to just, whatever your safe place is, if it's climbing into bed, if it's vegging out in front of the television, if it's taking a walk, if it's going and having an ice cream, whatever it is, you don't have to overcome that scary feeling right now today. Just find a way to be safe with yourself, and then let's get a plan in place for some more over time things that you can do to move out of that belief system.
But the reason I start with just, you don't have to manage this right now is because what I have learned, both dealing with my own issues, but also as a therapist, is that so often when painful feelings come, they are exacerbated and compounded by this reaction that most of us have, which is, "Oh my God, I've got to make it go away right now. I can't live with this. It's horrible." And then we do everything to try to make it stop. And I think that the best thing you can do is just say, "Okay, there it is. Those horrible feelings. I feel like absolute, you know what, and I accept it for right now, I'm just going to accept it. I'm just going to deal with it by staying still or whatever." Because fighting it usually only makes it worse. So that's actually what I would say.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word has been spoken on a subject, and our guest, Kristin Louise Duncombe has just spoken it.
So Warwick, we've just concluded our interview with Kristin Louise Duncombe, and wow is my summation of it, which is why I don't give the summations here, you do, because you'll have something much more intelligible to say, much more profound to say about it. But Kristin's story, it's heart-rending story, and yet at the end of the story, she was happy, she's optimistic about the future, and she's living a life of significance. And there's a lot of stuff to choose from, what's the one thing that stands out to you about Kristin's story?
Warwick Fairfax:
What's heart-wrenching about Kristin's Louise Duncombe story is she was a child of parents that were diplomats. They were in the US State Department and they were living at the time in Africa, the Ivory Coast. And what makes this story so heart-wrenching, is that she was abused by somebody that was also working for the US Diplomatic Service for the US government.
And he was somebody that was well-known to the small circle that was in the US Embassy, in Ivory Coast. He was this fun-loving person that everybody liked, but he had this dark side in which he sexually abused, not just Kristin, but a number of other girls her age that were part of the diplomatic service part of, the kids. And as horrifying as that abuse was, what was worse from Kristin's standpoint is the US State Department as then was in the early eighties, they did nothing.
They swept it under the rug, much as some people in some churches, some other institutions, Hollywood have done. And he was called back, but he wasn't reprimanded. They were told to keep quiet, not to say anything. Her parents tried to fight for her, but they just... It's not easy because their livelihood is in the State Department. They tried to fight even 10 years after, when more abuse happened by somebody else at a different embassy, they tried to fight for Kristin. What was horrifying is the State Department did nothing. And to this day, there's been no apology. She's not looking for money, she's looking for justice, for an apology. And what that did to her, the abuse was bad enough. It made Kristin feel like she doesn't matter, that she has no value, because what happened wasn't acknowledged and this guy would go on to abuse people for maybe decades after.
And so that's the tragedy, is not just the abuse, but it made her feel worthless, that she didn't matter. In her recent book OBJECT, she views herself as an object in that the only value she has is by being pleasing to other people and other men. If she makes them happy, she has some value, but feeling an object, it makes you feel that you have no inherent value. The good news is that there is still scars, but she spent her life counseling, coaching, speaking up for others, advocating, and she's somebody that laughs, is definitely in a better place.
But the tragedy is just the pain that she went through, of feeling that she was an object without value, which has colored her relationship with other people and men for decades. So that's the tragedy of what happened. So I guess the summary is, the abuse was horrific, the cover-up for her and the lack of recognition, it made it, in her words, so much worse. And that was so tragic.
Gary Schneeberger:
As you listen to her story, I mean one of the most heart-rending episodes we've had, but you should know that she laughs frequently. As we were preparing to go on this recording, we asked her how to pronounce her name and she told us it's not Duncom, it's Duncombe. At which point I looked at my picture in the camera and said, "I know all about that. I have been done with combs forever." This is an example, folks, of an episode that we understand your crucibles are tough. We understand that, you listen to Kristin's story, it is tough. You've heard Warwick's story, it is tough, but here's what else we know. And Kristin's living proof of it, that they're not the end of your story.
In fact, if you learn the lessons of what happened to you, you can turn them into an opportunity for you. And what it can do for you is it will drive you toward a destination that can be the greatest destination you'll ever reach, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a Journey of Transformation with the Beyond the Crucible assessment, and like any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience.
This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit Beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Embrace Your Wounds To Conquer Their Power Over You
Aftershocks from a crucible you have experienced are common, as are wounds that be might independent of those crucibles.
As we discuss this week, it’s critical you identify and create a strategy to neutralize those wounds and aftershocks as you pursue your life of significance.
How? Warwick’s got eight tips for you in his latest blog at BeyondTheCruciible.com, Wounds Are Inevitable. Here’s How to Minimize Their Pain. We cover them all in this episode, from taking an inventory of what your wounds and aftershocks are to analyzing why they hurt so much, from dealing immediately with them when you’re triggered to coming to the place where you se them as a blessing.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. We know that we can't just brush off our crucibles... well, hopefully, we should know, but we ignore these aftershocks about crucibles and our wounds at our peril. The key is when you feel triggered by these aftershocks and wounds, is to deal with them immediately and not let them fester and get worse.
Gary Schneeberger:
Aftershocks from a crucible you've experienced are common, as are wounds that might be independent of those crucibles. As we discussed this week, it's critical you identify and create a strategy to neutralize those wounds as you pursue a life of significance. How? Warwick has eight tips for you in his latest blog, and we cover each one of them in this episode. Welcome, friends, to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. I've never used this phrase to describe an episode like this, it's kind of like we're going from page to screen, or from page to soundtrack, if you're just listening and not watching this. But this is another one of those episodes, Warwick, in which you and I discuss your latest blog at Beyondthecrucible.com, and it's a subject, dare I say, that you and I, and probably everybody who's listening to us right now or watching us, knows pretty well, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Well said.
Gary Schneeberger:
And what is that subject? That subject is of the blog is, Wounds Are Inevitable, Here's How to Minimize Their Pain. It's all about wounds, what we do with those wounds. And we've prepared... we've got some pretty good insights, I think, for you, folks. So Warwick, I'm going to ask you off the bat what led you to write this blog, which as I said is called Wounds are Inevitable, Here's How to Minimize their Pain? What was the leading for this particular blog? Because I know there's always something different perhaps that strikes you and leads you to write.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I've been reflecting on the fact that our major crucibles may well be obvious, and one of the reasons they're obvious is the searing pain obviously is something that we remember, and hopefully, we've gotten over that worst day, that searing crucible. But one of the things I've been reflecting on is we can often ignore the aftershocks of those crucibles, or indeed other wounds that come up, so you're over the crucible, but sometimes, something triggers it, somebody says something, you read something, and it feels like you go back to that worst day. It's not quite the searing pain because you're over it, but it's a bit like an earthquake, it's like an aftershock, it's not like a 9 out of 10 pain, but maybe it's 3, 4, 5, it's something, it's meaningful. And then sometimes, other wounds come along and maybe they don't have anything to do with the original crucible.
We might think, "Okay, look, it's not a 9 out of 10 pain, it's like a 3 or a 4, it's not that big a deal," and we ignore it because we know what searing pain is and it's just... maybe it's not a paper cut, but it feels like painful but not life-threatening. And so we just blow right past it. So the problem is we know that we have to deal with crucibles, or at least everybody, and who's been guest on our podcast, you, Gary, and I know that you've got to deal with crucibles, many in our audience know that, but what we can't ignore is what we see as minor wounds, aftershocks, but the reality is, if we don't deal with these aftershocks and wounds, they can fester and get worse.
It's like if you cut yourself and there's dirt all over that cut, you think, "Well, I'm not going to die from this cut, let's just ignore it." And it gets worse and, "Ah, do we need antibiotics? It looks like it's infected, but not a big deal, let's just ignore it. "That minor wound can get worse. So the smart play is not to get too into this medical analogy is you get out the Neosporin, stick a bandaid on it, and you're fine. You don't just... not even going to wash the wound, you do something because that would be dumb, and most of us don't want to be dumb, right?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And I'll take us into the ocean, one of the things I've thought about as I was reading the blog and as we were preparing for this episode is that wounds, as we talk about them here, as you talk about them in the blog, aren't necessarily crucibles... they can be, but they're not necessarily the crucibles you've been through, but they're the barnacles that kind of stick to you, like barnacles stick to a ship going through the water, they're the barnacles you pick up over time that stick to you in the aftermath of a crucible, I think, is the way I look at it. That's a fair analysis, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. That is a terrific example, because barnacles eventually will slow us down, they'll have an effect. And so what do you do? You clean the barnacles. It's like anything in life, you've got to do maintenance, clean it, get rid of the stuff that's slowing you down. People with boats, they will regularly clean the hull, get the barnacles off, that's what you do with boat maintenance, people know that. Well, we shouldn't treat ourselves not as well as our boats or other things that we own, it's like you could have a dinghy, you still got to scrape the barnacles off, at least if you live near the ocean. In my case, when I think of aftershocks and wounds, I kind of relate it back to the crucible, which, for me, the biggest crucible of my life was the failed $2.25 billion takeover I did of my family's 150-year old family newspaper business.
It was in 1987, I was 26 years old, just back from Harvard Business School, and for a variety of reasons that I've mentioned elsewhere, the takeover didn't succeed. And the pain was searing not so much because of the money, because that's not really been a huge motivator for me, but the fact that I felt like I let my family down, my father, my mother, 4,000 plus employees, my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax, who founded the company in 1841, a person of great faith, and even in some sense, God, because I felt like God had a plan to resurrect the company, the image of the founder, and whether that was right or wrong, that was my belief. And so I felt like when I failed, I let God down. So obviously, if he'd wanted it to succeed, it would have despite my failures and my mistakes. So all that has to say is this is a long time ago.
I would say that through prayer, my wife, friends, meditating on scripture, a variety of means, I feel like I'm now in a good place and that it's, quote, unquote, "over," so to speak, I don't really think about it every day, although I do talk about it often on the podcast. And I don't get into a ball of pain after I talk about it on the podcast, it's like we talk about it often, Beyond the Crucible, what does that mean? Well, this is what it means for me, it's not like I ever think about, but it doesn't really cause me searing pain. Now, that being said, sometimes, there are what they call aftershocks. So to give you an example, a couple of years or so ago, right about the time when my book Crucible Leadership came out, there was an editorial cartoon in an Australian paper, and as Gary and I talk, and Gary's a former newspaper man, so he gets this editorial cartoons, they're never favorable, nobody ever looks at it and go, "I love that cartoon." And I know it's about me, but that was so awesome.
I don't know that that's existed in the history of newspapers, maybe, but I've never seen one. So there was one of me signing books at a table or something, my book, and it basically said, "Warwick will give you a copy of his book for a price." Well, it's like, who sells their book for free? It was a stupid cartoon, silly. If you want to have a go at me, at least make it a good one. But it was just silly. But yet, it's like, seriously, they're going to have a go... I mean, can't they leave me alone? They're going to have a go at me because of a book. And so it was somewhat triggering, there were aftershocks, even though in my head I knew it was silly, you can't necessarily stop the emotions immediately. So that's sort of one example.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's important to say, Warwick, it's important to say too on the subject of cartoons, one of the reasons that hit you so hard is because during the takeover, the cartoons were savage that were drawn and published about you. So it's not just that this particular cartoon might've been goofy, that doesn't matter, you had a wound, you have a wound about cartoons because of the crucible, and that's a great example of that, barnacle has been there, and you don't have to necessarily treat it if no one's writing cartoons about you, when someone did it, it brought it back up, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Excellent point. Very good point. So that's right. Back in the takeover days, and after it launched the takeover in late August 1987, there was one cartoon that showed me as sort of Genghis Khan, like a Mongol raider near China. Genghis Khan occupied a lot of that part of the world. And so it had me on horseback with the mustache, and the fur hat, and some like spear. And basically, he said, "Young Warwick," as he used to call me, because my dad was Sir Warwick, "Fairfax launches a takeover with his band and basically destroys a company in a day that took 150 years to build." I was cast as this ruthless Mongol raider. So yeah, there were others, but yeah, it's excellent point. It was certainly triggering of the takeover and the cartoons back in the day. And so this crucible has had other manifestations because of all the uncertainty when I was growing up, there was a huge expectations that I would one day lead the company.
So I went to Oxford, worked on Wall Street, graduated from Harvard Business School. So there was incredible sense of duty, obligation, expectations, and given though a family, in fighting back decades, there was a lot of uncertainty as to what would happen, how was it going to look? Would I be able to fulfill my father and my parents' expectations? So a lot of stress, and uncertainty, and unknowable consequences, and the future was unknowable, certainly back when I was growing up, all that's to say is when you grow up with a lot of uncertainty and with a lot of parent money, people tend to look at you like, "Oh, you haven't done anything," and you want to prove yourself. And all sorts of things going on, it's tended to make me somebody that really doesn't like change. I've had enough change and uncertainty in my life that I like my rhythms, and I don't really change.
That being said, I realize that I don't like change. And so if we have to change, do things, move, redo the house or whatever necessary changes are, I don't know that I love it, but I recognize, "Okay, I don't like change, I'm not going to just not do it just because I don't like change." All that's to say is that in my case, there are aftershocks, there's triggering. When I go back to Australia to visit family, that is pretty much always triggering because I'm back in Australia, I'm reminded of the family, and wealth, and all of that, that's produces challenging relationships where it can, and just the takeover and it's aftermath has been challenging for everybody in my family, they've got their own wounds from that.
And so I'm reminded of that and reminded of my own crucible. And so being in Australia, it makes what seems distant a lot more present. So I'm not going to not go back and see family, but I realize there are going to be some challenges, I'm going to hit some barnacles, some speed bumps, and it is what it is, and then I just try and deal with it the best I can.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. You've just gone through sort of your experience with those wounds. Now, we're going to turn to, from your blog, eight points, this time, I won't even joke that they're not seven points, that there is often... I guess I did joke anyway, sorry, but there's eight points in the blog that can help people navigate through the wounds that they're encountering as they're moving beyond their crucible. And the first one of those is... and this one's critical, folks, this one is... there's a reason why it's kind of the umbrella one over all the other points, and that's this, "Accept that our wounds will never fully heal." That's not discouraging news, you can read that as like, "Oh, geez, it's never going to heal. Next." But really, it's not discouraging news, it's realistic news. Talk a little bit about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. The first step to dealing with a problem is acceptance, accept that you have a problem. If you said, "Nothing to see here. I'm done with my crucible, I'm so over it. I don't recognize any aftershocks, I don't recognize any wounds. It didn't happen, it's not happening. It's not real, it's a figment of my imagination," well, that's not healthy. It's like, "Gee, do I have a cut on my arm? Nope, no cut to see here. I'm ignoring it. I'm moving on." Well, that's just not smart. And so I think one of the things we have to realize is that aftershocks will happen from our crucible, that's inevitable. I don't know that those aftershocks will ever fully go away, their wounds are going to come up from time to time.
So in that sense, yes, an individual wound may lessen, it doesn't mean that they will fully go away. There'll be scabs and scars from crucible, that's just inevitable. So you got to accept the fact that wounds are a part of life, and there will always be scars and scabs. And the question is, are you going to accept that or ignore it? Are you going to deal with it or just say, "Nothing to see here"?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And those wounds can have long contrails on them. I go back to the story that you told just a few minutes ago about that cartoon that was done in Australia about you, you hadn't had a cartoon done on your work in 30 years, you probably hadn't thought... Right. You hadn't thought about... I would think you hadn't thought about, "Oh, cartoons," but then when one hits, it triggers it. So you hadn't even thought about that, you might have assumed it went away. You certainly hadn't thought about it, but there it was. And that's a great example, isn't it, of how they don't go away and they can come up and be just as vivid when they come up as they were when you first experienced them?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, excellent point. I think of another example that... people wrote about the takeover, and my mistakes, and somebody wrote one of my least favorite titles, A Man Who Wouldn't Wait," basically, if I'd waited, I would've inherited enough shares from... well, I did from my dad and then from other family members, and I could have been in a controlling position anyway. So I get the point, there is some point to that, but obviously, I had my reasons, wanting to change management and restoring the vision of the company, the founder, and some takeover fears back in '87. So I had my reasons, right or wrong. So that wasn't helpful, but then a number of years after the takeover, there was a book written saying that the company hadn't been run well in the '90s and 2000s. And rather than saying, "Okay, it was up to the present owners, shareholders, management," it's like, "Well, it all started with Warwick's takeover." So really, it's Warwick's fault.
The fact that the company wasn't run well in the '90s and 2000s, and maybe some would say maybe even today, it depends on what commentary you read. It felt like it all boils down to things would've been fine had the Fairfax family still maintained control, despite the fact that we're fallible people, and there was infighting, the future's unknowable, but to say that everything would've been great, I mean, come on. So that was like, "Are you serious?" I mean, not only... okay, you want to blame me for the takeover, I deserve certainly some degree of blame, but now you want to blame me for something where I wasn't even in control, the '90s and 2000s, that was somewhat triggering when that came out a number of years ago. It's like, "Come on, can you leave me alone? I mean, really? Is every problem in the world my fault?" It felt that way,
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And one of the ways is... in your second point, one of the ways that you can inoculate yourself a little bit on those things coming up and surprising you is the second point of your blog, and that's, "Take an inventory of what your wounds are." Really right to use a phrase you use a lot at Beyond the Crucible, do a little soul work. What are your wounds? Explore what those wounds are. That's really important to do, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It is. Some may be obvious like, okay, I had this sear in crucible, but are you aware of what the potential aftershocks are? Like if an editorial cartoon comes out, it's going to be triggering, because of what you just said about the takeover, and some of the bad editorial cartoons years ago, or somebody writes a recent book, or if there's rapid change, I'm not going to like it. And there are other wounds from my upbringing and different things that makes me sensitive to certain things. The point is know what your wounds are. Some may be obvious, but some may be less obvious. So when those aftershocks or those wounds... not every wound that you have has to relate to your crucible, it could be other more minor, what you perceive as more minor issues, be aware of that. So when you start feeling irritable and angry, it's like, okay, I'm not totally sure what it is, but I think there could be... there's a few possibilities of why I'm getting triggered.
And so if you have an idea of what those wounds are, then it's a matter of, okay, well, it could be an aftershock, or I could be getting triggered by one of these other wounds. At least you have some idea of, as we'll talk about in the moment, where to look. But if it's like, "Nope, all I have is that crucible, which is big enough, but I don't have any other wounds," or, "I might have any other wounds, but I am clueless to what they are, and I don't care what they are because I'm moving on, I'm not looking at the past." That's not smart. Be aware of what your wounds are, because if you've accepted the fact that you do have them and you have an idea of what they are, then it's going to make it a whole lot easier to deal with.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. This blog and preparing for this podcast triggered me or got me thinking about one of my big wounds... and it's not a big wound, it's a very big wound, but it's not like... if it was part of an iceberg, it wouldn't be the stuff underneath the water line, this one I know is up here, it's bobbing above the water, and that is this feeling that I am less than, I am not good enough. And it stems from a lot of things in my childhood, my parents were divorced, youngest kid in the family, your parents get divorced, you think, "Oh, what did I do? It's my fault." I was an overweight kid that it got picked on a little bit, I stuttered as a kid. So all these things that kind of roiled up, to the point that, still, even though I've shed a lot of those things that led to that feeling, I still feel that. And the story that came to mind that I hadn't thought about in more than 20 years, I think, I was the director of public relations for a large international nonprofit.
And I thought I was doing a good job, but I got called in. The vice president who was over me called, said, "Hey, can you come into my office?" And Warwick, the whole time I walked to go to this man's office, I'm like, "I'm going to get fired. I'm going to get fired. The vice president is summoning me to his office, I'm going to get fired." That's my... "I'm not good enough, I'm less than, oh, my gosh, what else could it be?" I got in, I sat down, I actually got promoted to be vice president of communications for the organization. That is the wound makes you so myopic that you can't see any other possibility but the worst one. That's just one example of what untreated wounds out of left field can hit you. That is not... I'm sure that's... that probably doesn't surprise you about that's how hard wounds can hit you sometimes, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Boy, that is such a good example. The fact the vice president's calling you in, your default is, "Am I going to get fired? I'm going to get a talking to dressed down, it's going to be bad," rather than, "I don't know what's going on. This is kind of interesting. I guess we'll find out." That would be, I wouldn't say more normal, but for others, it might be, "This is kind of weird, but oh, well," it'd be more that reaction. And I think this is something that a lot of people deal with. And so knowing that, it helps you know how to deal with it. And if somebody, let's say a boss, in the past or at some point says, "Look," let's say we're in your newspaper days, "hey, Gary, you're a lousy editor, lousy writer." You can say, "Okay, I don't like that, but I know that's not true. There are things that don't do well, but I know how to write, I know how to edit." You'll be respectful.
But rather than say, "Okay, I'm not good enough, you're right." But that's where the truth in you says, "Okay, what this person's telling me is not true," your psychological default might be, "Oh, my gosh, I'm not good enough." But the fact that you're aware of that wound means if somebody says something that's clearly not true, you can counteract it rather than going into a tailspin. Does that make sense, Gary?
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, absolutely. And I'm in a place now, and I talk about it often, when companies that I've worked at do like a 360 evaluation of you, they have people who work... any evaluation of me, I don't look at, "Here's what Gary does well," because I know what I do well, I want to know the things done... said constructively that I don't do necessarily well in their eyes so I can get better at it. So I have gotten better at some of those things, I can hear criticism now that's constructive. But yeah, this idea that the sky's falling all the time if somebody in a position of authority wants to talk to me, that's still not gone away, that still hasn't been gone, I still wonder, "Why is he not talking to me," or, "What's happening?"
When I walk in the room and people start not having a conversation anymore, "They're trying to keep something from me." So that's something that's... Right. I think one of the points to get back to the blog in this discussion, one of the points that you make throughout the blog is that these things don't go away, that's your first point, they can be with you forever, and you have to work to kind of push them back, push them back. And the third point, let's go to that, the third point to Wounds Are Inevitable, Here's How to Minimize Their Pain, your third point is, "Analyze why they hurt so much." So talk about that because that's a critical point as well.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. For me, the aftershocks with these editorial cartoons such as the one that was a few years ago, or books are written about the company going maybe not being as well run as it could be in the '90s, in 2000s, why is all that triggering? Because it reminds me of the takeover and, "Gee, this is all my fault," which wasn't, but certainly, a lot of it... I mean, a fair amount of it was, but it triggers the memories of what went wrong and the takeover. And if I don't change, which I don't, it's like, well, that's because of all the uncertainty that I went through growing up. And for you, your example, Gary, is a perfect example, why do you feel like, oh, you're being called into the principal's office, and he's going to get fired when vice president calls you in, it's like, well, because of the divorce, and being a bit overweight, as you've said, as a kid, all of that is going to tend to make you feel like, oh, you're not good enough.
So you know exactly why those wounds are triggering. It's not like, "Gee, why do I feel this way? That is so weird," it's like, "I may not feeling this way, but I know why I feel this way." And that's a huge difference, you know your why, in terms of these words, it's not a surprise. I'd say for me, I'm very aware of what those aftershocks are, what those wounds are, and what triggers them, and why they hurt so much. I'm aware. And that's another step on the road to dealing with them, is you've accepted them, you've taken inventory of them, and you know the why, you know why they hurt so much. It's really, really important.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, as is point four in the blog. And again, I say it every time we do one of these episodes, Warwick, you stack them like stairs, climbing the stairs. And the fourth point that you make is, "To consider the circumstances that trigger these wounds." What is it about the wounds, the aftershocks that you have, what is it that triggers them? Why is that important, and how do you do that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Just understanding those circumstances, there may be friends, family members that reminds you of your worst day or reminds you of your failings. And with family members, it's not always easy, though sometimes, in the extreme, when some family members just are really incredibly triggering, there are some who have chosen to distance themselves from those people that maybe they feel like they verbally abused them all the time. So there might be some people for your own mental and emotional health, and maybe if you're... a family that you need to distance yourself from. So you want to consider situations and people that might trigger those wounds, and by definition, to the degree you can, try to avoid those circumstances. As I've mentioned, it's not always possible with close family members, or me, or my family is basically in Australia, what can I do? "Never go back to Australia?" No, but yeah, so far away, I don't go back all the time, but you just have to consider the consequences.
So understanding those circumstances and considering what triggers your wounds and aftershocks, that's important, because to the degree you have any agency or control, you want to try and minimize when those wounds come up. It's not like, "Gee, if I go outside without sunscreen and lie in 100 degree heat, I'm going to get sunburnt," or maybe you might want to minimize those circumstances, "Do I do that? Either put on sunscreen or just go out with sunglass?" So it's kind of obvious, but we do need to consider the circumstances that trigger these wounds and aftershocks.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I have done something, this is interesting, this point's interesting to me, I have in the business context, as a leader, I've sort of reversed engineered this point to what I call manage people, manage to the wound of the folks who are on my team. And by that, I mean, identify, in conversations and getting to know them, what are those wounds? And then find ways to pack good stuff around those wounds that won't trigger them. So for example, say that someone on my team is very unsure of him or herself, has very low self-confidence. My job, in that case, if I'm going to manage to the wounds, is finding ways to uphold them, finding ways to compliment them, and being specific about it so that those wounds can, over time, at least even if they don't get rid of them, can at least abate a little bit.
And I think that certainly works in the business context, but I think they can also work in the personal context, your family, your friends, you can look at their wounds, we can tend to see the wounds that people have. And I think it's a good exercise when you're off of your wounds, when you're not doing things to abate your wounds, you can help others by coming at them in the opposite spirit that their wounds create. Does that make sense at all?
Warwick Fairfax:
It makes a lot of sense. I think one of the things I found is crucibles, aftershocks of the crucibles, wounds, can make you more empathetic of other people's wounds, of other people's pain. So for instance, if somebody struggles with self-esteem, which is many people, it's not just a few, you can... and I do this, I'm sure you do the same thing, Gary, whether it's somebody on my team, somebody at church, in my community group at church, or various things I'm involved in, I will go out of my way to find something to encourage them. I certainly do that with my wife, my kids. And not just things that are meaningless, but find something that's specific and praiseworthy. One of the things I say is if you see something positive, say something and be specific. And so in another context, for many years, I was on the board of my kids' private school, it was a Christian school, and I've been an elder at my church, Bay Area Community church, which is a Christ-centered evangelical church for many years.
When staff members of either organizations present to us about what's going on, I'll make it a point to say... and often, it's just, they're doing an incredible job, I'll say, "Well, thank you, Joe, Mary," whoever it is, "this is fabulous. I really like the fact you did A, B, and C, and this is really taking us to another level." And I'm so focused on that, if at times, I don't say anything, because I feel like other people can say something too, like the lead pastor of our organization, or friend of mine who's president of the school board that I was involved in, they almost look at me like, "Well, Warwick hadn't come, he didn't say anything." It's like they just assume my role is the encourager, which is I'm happy to wear that label if they want to put it on me, but the point is, I'm making a point of trying to be encouraging.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, for sure. Point five in the blog at Beyondthecrucible.com, which is called Wounds are Inevitable, Here's How to Minimize Their Pain. Point five is this, "Anchor yourself in your truth. Find that anchor." You talk a lot about an immovable anchor for your soul and bouncing back from a crucible, here, you're talking about anchoring yourself in your truth to beat away those barnacles, those aftershocks, those wounds that crop up. Why is that so important? And how do you do that?
Warwick Fairfax:
So when you're triggered by wounds, whether it's aftershocks, or the crucible of my takeover, or just growing up in an uncertain environment, not liking change, need to ask yourself what is true and what are lies, basically. And you've got to know what your values and belief systems are, what your truth is. And so when those wounds are triggered, and people will say... or maybe the bad voices within yourself, if you will, sometimes we have these... maybe put it another way, these negative thoughts that creep into our head, it could be, "Warwick, Gary, you're not good enough. You were never good enough. You're not worthy." And you hear these negative thoughts, you can say, "Well, that's not true. I'm not perfect, but those are lies. I will not listen to the lies. I'm going to anchor myself in truth." And so for me... I mean, I think for both of us, it will be the truth of the Bible, it will be biblical truth, and that is one thing that I do.
I would say, "Well, I'm a child of God." I think of Psalm 139 were beautifully and wonderfully made, I think of one of my go-to passages is in Philippians 3, when I'm getting triggered by the whole takeover, and, "Look what I did, and I'm so dumb, and had a Harvard MBA, how could I made some of these stupid mistakes?" Which certainly in the '90s, there was a lot of that self-talk, very negative. But then I would... Philippians 3, basically 7 through 14, I won't read the whole thing, but there are passages that I'll cling to, that this is my truth, which is from biblical truth. It would be, I'd say... repeat these words to myself, which is what's written here, "But whatever was to my profit, I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whose sake I've lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him." And that it goes on from there.
So basically, what I say is, "Look, I've made a lot of mistakes, but as important as John Fairfax Limited, the newspapers are, compared to knowing Christ, it's like rubbish. So when I hear the lies in my head, those negative thoughts, I anchor myself in truth, and my truth that I anchor myself is in the Bible. So for others, it may be other texts, other religious ways of thinking, books, biographies, whatever your truth is, anchor yourself in those truths, in those truths that reinforce your fundamental beliefs and values so that you can reject these negative thoughts, which, very often, are lies. When you have a negative thought that says, "I'm worthless and I'm not good enough," that's a lie. We are all worthwhile, reject the lies, or somebody blames you for things you never did or just tries to pull you down, just reject that saying, "That is not true. I will not accept lies. I'm anchored in my truth."
Gary Schneeberger:
Very good point. The sixth point is also a very good point, the sixth point is, "When your wounds are triggered, deal with it immediately." And I wrote something on my sheet here, you can see it, it's right there. I wrote... it just popped in my head when I read that, "When your wounds are triggered, deal with it immediately," I wrote, "Don't ruminate, fumigate."
Warwick Fairfax:
Boy, that's an excellent example. I know in some areas, there are termites, and you don't want to ruminate on, "Oh, my gosh, there's termites all over my house." You want to get the pest control people and fumigate them. They come in, they tent the house or the condo, and they fumigate it with all sorts of chemicals that kill the termites. So yes, don't ruminate, fumigate. Excellent, excellent point. So really the point here is when wounds are triggered, you don't want to let them fester and bleed, and let's ignore the antibiotic, and washing it, and the Band-Aid, you want to deal with that wound immediately. So to go back to that example of that editorial cartoon of me having the audacity to charge for the book I wrote, Crucible Leadership, that irritated me, it sort of angered me a bit, it says, "Come on, really?" I mean, that's so lame, silly, and can't they leave me alone?
So yeah, it was definitely triggering. Well, one of the things I did, obviously, I talked to, Gale, my wife, about it, but I called you, Gary, because you've been in newspapers, you get the newspaper well, you were part of the team, you kind of helped me edit my book, and so you're very well aware of what's in the book. And so we were able to talk about it. And so one of the things I do, which we'll get to in a moment, is I have my own way of dealing with things, praying about it. But basically, when that happened, that aftershock, I guess you'd say, that wound from the takeover, I dealt with it immediately and then it went away. It doesn't always go away in five minutes, it could be a day, a few hours, it really depends, but I'm able to move on because I recognize what it was, it harkens back to earlier cartoons and then also to the takeover.
And if it's maybe me not wanting change, I think, "Well, that's because of A, B, and C when I was growing up." And I realize it and say, "Okay, we do need to make these changes. Let's go ahead." But I realize I'm getting triggered, and if it's about things that my family or my house, I'll talk to Gale and we'll talk about it and make sure we know, well, what specifically is triggering it, analyze it, and then deal with it. So when you get triggered, don't ignore it, and don't say, "Oh, this is silly, I'm going to move on." That's not smart, deal with it at once.
Gary Schneeberger:
And your very next point, again, the staircase, your very next point, number seven, "Have a proven system for dealing with those wounds when flare-ups happen."
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've intimated a little bit that you have a plan. Talk a little about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. So for me, as soon as I get triggered by a wound, flare up, aftershock, I deal with it immediately, "Okay, what the heck is going on?" Sometimes, I'm not sure. And so very often, I will say... I'll have a conversation with Gale, and I'll say, "Gale, I don't know, I'm feeling anxious, fearful. Something's triggering me, I'm not sure what it is." Even though I'm very self-aware, sometimes, I won't know. But that'll just really bug me, I have to know, I have to know. Because I want to deal with it. I can't deal with it if I don't know. It's like, "Gee, I have an ache somewhere in my body, is it my leg? Is it my arm?" "Gee, I don't know." "Well, how in the world can you fix it if you don't even know where it is on your body? You've got to figure out where, what's going on?"
And so I'd say 9 times out of 10 or more, Gale will be able to figure it out. So, "Okay, now I know what it is, what's the next step?" "Well, then we'll pray about it." And I'll sometimes say, "Gale, can you pray this for me because I'm just struggling?" And she'll pray, and that almost always makes an enormous amount of difference. As part of this process, I will often read scripture, like the passage from Philippians 3 or Psalm 139 that I mentioned beautifully and wonderfully made. I'll anchor myself in the truth saying, "This is true. I will not listen to these lies that are floating around in my head." So that's my system, and it does work. I deal with it immediately, I'll talk to Gale, or if it's maybe something to do with what I do at Beyond the Crucible, you and I, Gary, might talk, or maybe if it's something to do with church or whatever, maybe one of the other elders, or whoever the relevant person is that might know something about the issue and me is sort of the larger point.
And once I've understood it, then I anchor myself in truth, partly to the scripture, and by praying with somebody, about having somebody pray for me. Part of this whole journey is we talk a lot Beyond the Crucible about the need for fellow travelers, we don't get beyond your crucibles or your flare-ups, wounds, and aftershocks without fellow travelers. And it's not a matter of weakness to say, "Gee, I'm scared. I don't know why I feel bad about myself. I don't know why I'm triggered." It's a sign of self-confidence and strength that you're willing to ask somebody for help. And most people that I know are willing to pray. If you say, "Can you help me? Can you pray for me?" Who's just going to say no. If they care about you at all, like your spouse, loved one, good friend, they're going to say, "Yes, of course," they'll pray for you or pray with you. So you got to have a system, figure out what works for you, but have a system for dealing with it. Deal with it immediately, figure out a system that works for you.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, folks, the blog, as we've been talking about is called Wounds are Inevitable, Here's How to Minimize the Pain. We've reached the last point, point eight. Let's go through the first seven though, just as a review. First point is, "Accept that wounds will never fully heal." Second point is, "Take an inventory of what your wounds are." Point three, "Analyze why they hurt so much." Four, "Consider the circumstances that trigger those wounds." Five, "Anchor yourself in your truth." Point six is this, "When your wounds are triggered, deal with it immediately." Point seven is this, "Have a proven system for dealing with those wounds when flare-ups happen." And here folks is point eight, and it's something you've heard before at Beyond the Crucible, but it's a little bit of a different context, and this is going to be fascinating to talk about. Point eight is this, "See your wounds as a blessing." Warwick, talk a little bit about that one.
Warwick Fairfax:
Beyond the Crucible, we have spoken about how our crucibles can be a blessing. You, Gary, coined the phrase that, "It didn't happen to you, it happened for you," which is a brilliant truth. It requires a lot of strength and a lot of perseverance to reframe it that way, but not only can crucibles be a blessing, but these aftershocks and wounds can be seen as a blessing, because I think one of the things that I've realized with my crucible and things I've been through, that there are ways that I can use them to help others, obviously, my story, you are not defined by your worst day, you can come back and have a fulfilling life, your crucible isn't the end of your story. We talk about life being about having a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. We say that a lot.
And one of the things we've found on the podcast is, I'd say most, if not everybody, on this podcast have been able to say what they went through was traumatic, it was awful, they certainly wouldn't wish to go through it again or have anybody go through it, but somehow, there's been blessing in those crucibles and they've actually been grateful for it. I remember one of the first guest that we had that mentioned this with Stacey Copas, an Australian woman in the outskirts of Sydney who dove into a pool as a teenager, an above-ground pool, and was diagnosed as a quadriplegic. She was merciless with herself because her parents said, "Hey, Stacey, don't do that," because kids obviously typically ignore their parents when it comes to things like that.
But she went through some really challenging years, but she would now say that what she went through was a blessing because her calling of consulting, and speaking, and helping other people wouldn't have happened without that. And it's not that there aren't consequences, not that she probably wished it didn't happen, but she's found a silver lining, some blessing in that. And as I've found just with my own book, and when I gave that talk in church many years ago in 2008, which I've spoken about, which that my pastor wanted a sermon illustration to illustrate some points he was making, and I gave a 10-minute sermon illustration, and somehow, what I said seemed to help people, which I thought, "How can stories from a failed takeover bid help anybody?" Because it's not like a common that challenge people have, but somehow it did. So then it led to me writing my book, Crucible Leadership.
When my book came out in 2022, I began speaking about what I went through. And again, people said, "Boy, this is helpful." So there's been some measure of healing when you feel like what I'm doing talking about my crucible can help people. So when you see your wounds, that can be a blessing that can help others. Like in your case, when you maybe had that self-image issue, when you sense others have that, you're attuned to it, probably like laser-like focus, "How can I be a blessing to them? How can I offer a word of encouragement?"` You don't need to think about it, you probably do it automatically because you know what it's like to feel less than.
So it doesn't mean there aren't consequences of wounds, but there's that oft-used phrase, pain for a purpose. When you feel like you have these wounds, but it makes you more sensitive to others, and you can be a blessing. When I'm so focused on encouraging people, when you grow up in this family business, when you feel like people think everything's handed to you and you didn't have to work hard, and there's just this sort of negative talk, and some people can say pretty negative things and have done, it makes you very attuned to try to say positive things, at least has in my case, to try to empower people and encourage them. So certainly, wounds can be a blessing, and it's helpful to see a wound as a blessing, as part of the healing process.
Gary Schneeberger:
That, folks, is the end of our discussion of the meat and potatoes of the blog, which is called Wounds are Inevitable, Here's How to Minimize the Pain. We hope you've learned a little bit about how to do that in this discussion. Warwick, as always, when we do these episodes, I want to pick your brain a little bit about what's the one truth? Hopefully, folks will take all eight points with them, but what's the one kernel that you hope that listeners and viewers will be left with from this discussion?
Warwick Fairfax:
Crucibles are real, they're painful, but so are aftershocks of those crucibles and our other wounds. So we know that we can't just brush off our crucibles... or hopefully, we should know, but we ignore these aftershocks of our crucibles and our wounds at our peril. The key is when you feel triggered by these aftershocks and wounds is to deal with them immediately and not let them fester and get worse. Don't just blow past them saying, "I'm tough. Hey, this is not a crucible. It's a wound. I can deal with it. I don't need any fellow travelers. I don't need help. I don't need prayer. I don't even need to know what they are exactly other than, yeah, it's something, it's an aftershock, it's a wound. I don't know what it is, but nothing to see here, let's move on." That's not a smart play, that's actually dumb, because those wounds will tend to get worse, they either get better or they get worse. They don't stay the same, that's part of the law of life.
So when you feel triggered by aftershocks and wounds, deal with them immediately, get help from friends, or depending on how severe those wounds are, maybe you might need counseling, maybe they're recurring so often that maybe it's something that's worse than just a flesh wound, maybe you need to get some professional help, some folks that really can help you. But the key is deal with it immediately, don't let them faster, don't let them get worse.
Gary Schneeberger:
Or as we say... or as we said in this episode, don't ruminate, fumigate. Copyright 2025, Beyond the Crucible, for sure. Folks, as we always do on these episodes that focus on Warwick's blogs, he's come up with three points of reflection for you to take with you as you leave us. The first one is this, identify your wounds. First place to start, identify what they are. Make sure you identify more than just the obvious ones. Dig deep, go down a little bit deeper. And this is where we've encouraged you before to journal about some things, to just kind of get below the surface. As I mentioned earlier, there's the stuff that's above the waterline, the stuff below the waterline, get to the stuff below the waterline in point one. In reflection point two, how do your wounds get triggered? Consider what situations or people trigger those wounds. Think about how you will minimize those situations and come up with a game plan for dealing with those wounds when they're triggered.
Again, this is something that you can write down so you can have a plan of attack, a plan of action when those things are triggered, because as we've discussed here, those moments being triggered are not fun moments. So do what you can to counteract that when they come up. And then the third point of reflection from Warwick's blog is this, think deeply about how your wounds can be a blessing. All right, let that sit for a bit, your wounds can be a blessing. Think about that. Start to consider what people and in what situations your wounds can actually be an asset. It might enable you to reach people and help them in ways that others might not be able to help them. And that, folks, puts a wrap on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. Please know this, until we're together next time, we understand that your crucible experiences are difficult, they're tough work.
And I talked about not just our crucibles on this episode, we also talked about the wounds, the barnacles, the aftershocks that are associated with those crucibles. But we know this to be true as well from our own experiences and from the experiences of our guests on this show, and that is this, your crucibles are not the end of your story, and I'll add, because of this episode, your aftershocks, your wounds aren't the end of your story, aren't a brick wall that stops your story. Because if you learn the lessons of them, if you move past them, even if they never go away, if those wounds never go away, but if you move past them emotionally, you can end up on the journey you're on, will take you to the most worthwhile destination you could ever imagine, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist, instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit Beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment, and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Crucibles are painful. The reality is that many if not most of us have had searing challenges that fundamentally altered the course of our lives. With those challenges come wounds. Some are obvious to us and to others, such as physical wounds and disabilities. Some may not be so obvious. They may be internal, and others may not see them every day or even at all. It could be the loss of a loved one, abuse, getting fired or losing a business. We can sometimes mask what people see, saying we are fine.
But crucibles and indeed wounds have consequences, even if we find a way to move on from them.
While we might be able in some sense move beyond our wounds, wounds leave scars that may never fully heal. Wounds under certain circumstances can reopen and might make us feel triggered.
So how can we get beyond our wounds and not have them affect us so much?
1. Accept that our wounds will never fully heal. This is tough. We all want our wounds to go away. We want to be free of them. We don’t want to keep reliving our worst day, whether it was abuse or financial failure. We are sick and tired of getting triggered. But the reality is that we will never be completely free from our wounds. So the first step is acceptance. These wounds are a part of you, the new you – for better or for worse.
2. Take an inventory of what your wounds are. Why would we want to do this? Once we have accepted that our wounds will always in some sense be a part of us, we need to know what they are before we can learn to deal with them more effectively. Some may be obvious like physical wounds and disabilities. But some may need some thought to fully identify what they are.
3. Analyze why they hurt so much. The why matters. Especially for the wounds that seem to get triggered often, delve into why these wounds are so painful and why it might seem so hard to let them go. The solution to trying to ease these wounds, not necessarily to eliminate them, depends on understanding more deeply why they are still so painful.
4. Consider the circumstances that trigger these wounds. Certain situations might seem to trigger these wounds, and the scabs seem to open. Why is this? What people and what situations seem to trigger flare ups of those wounds?
5. Anchor yourself in your truth. To be able to deal more effectively with your wounds, you need to know what truth, your truth, is; not the lies you or others are telling you. Often our wounds are triggered by us or others saying that we are not worthy enough or are even worthless. They or us might say that we are indeed defined by our worst day and that redemption and forgiveness is impossible. That is not true. Reject the lies.
6. When your wounds are triggered, deal with it immediately. You might feel only mildly triggered by a situation or what someone says, and you might feel that on a one to ten scale your triggering is only a two or a three. But a bit like weeds, that triggering of the wounds you have can grow and get worse.
7. Have a proven system for dealing with those wounds when flare ups happen. When you feel triggered, know how you are going to anchor yourself in truth, what you know to be true. For some it might mean reading Scripture and then praying about it or praying with a trusted friend or family member. For others it might mean reading or viewing some truth that you might feel is sacred to you and summarizes what you believe to your very core. Meditate on those thoughts and truth, and consider asking someone else to sit with you as you process these thoughts.
8. See your wounds as a blessing. This may be the hardest step of all. How can our wounds be a blessing? They are so painful. As most if not all of our podcast guests have affirmed, our wounds can be used for good to bless others. Nobody wants wounds. But if we have them why not try to make something good come out of them? Begin to consider how specifically our wounds can help others. What type of people can they help and in what situations?
Wounds are painful. They remind us of the depths of our crucible, and how much others have hurt us or what a terrible person we might think we are. Having a system of dealing with situations or people that trigger our wounds is helpful. Some solutions may be obvious, such as reducing or avoiding being around people or situations that continually trigger our wounds. This may not always be easy to do.
While we may never be fully able to get over our wounds and avoid having them getting triggered, we can try to reduce how many flare ups we have and reduce the severity of those flare ups.
And by using those wounds to help others, it can give our life added purpose. That is what the guests on our podcast have done in almost every case. By using our wounds to help others, it can give our wounds purpose and meaning, which ironically in certain cases can reduce the pain of those wounds.
When we can say our wounds are actually a blessing, that reframing is a victory that has so much power.
Reflection
Identify your wounds. What are they? Make sure you identify more than just the obvious ones.
How do your wounds get triggered? Consider what situations or people trigger those wounds. Think about how you will minimize those situations and come up with a game plan for dealing with those wounds when they are triggered.
Think deeply about how your wounds can be a blessing. Start to consider to what people and in what situations your wounds actually can be an asset. It might enable you to reach people and help them that others may not be able to.
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
He Gained A Lot After Losing His $300 Million Business: Gregory Vetter
Our guest this week, Gregory Vetter, describes the shock and loss he felt over losing the $300 million dollar salad dressing business he and his brothers built using their mother’s recipe.
They were forced to file for bankruptcy, he says, because of a legal battle with greedy and unscrupulous investors. He may have lost millions of dollars, but not his entrepreneurial spirit — going on to launch new businesses and help other entrepreneurs with a big idea do the same.
You’ll want to pay special attention when he tells us the lesson his crucible taught him about the four things money can’t buy.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Over the 12 weeks, what we found was that initially the cohort had a Beck Depression Inventory score of, I believe it was about 32, which is in the severe range. By the end of the study, the mean Beck Depression score had dropped to 14, which is in the mild region.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Dr. Thomas McCormack, describing his research into how adding a spiritual component to psychiatric care can have a powerful impact the medical discipline he pioneered. Ruachiatry takes a 12-step approach to helping patients find healing, especially in the wake of crucibles, by leaning into such things as finding peace through surrender, embracing reconciliation, and choosing forgiveness.
Warwick Fairfax:
Tom, great to have you here. Tom is Dr. McCormack. He is a psychiatrist educator, thought leader and integrates spirituality and medicine. He graduated with honors from Wake Forest University, got his medical degree from Emory. Fellowships at Duke. He has a thriving multidisciplinary practice in Athens, Georgia, and he specializes in complex and treatment-assistant psychiatric cases. Dr. McCormack, Tom is an expert psychiatrist and has written a book, Hidden Medicine that really talks about the integration of spiritual with the physical and the biological, and talks about the 12 steps of Ruachiatry. Did I get that close to right?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, that's right War.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay. So before we get into that, which I found fascinating because it really offers help to folks spiritually really holistic medicine I guess you could say. So tell us a bit about the backstory of what a young Tom McCormack was like growing up and how you got interested in medicine. Where was that journey because not everybody grows up saying, "I want to be a psychiatrist one day." Probably didn't think that when, I guess you were six or seven, I'm guessing. So what was life like for young Tom and what led you to your life's calling?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. Well first thank you guys for having me, Warwick and Gary. And look forward to talking to you guys today. Yeah. Starting from the start, when I was born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia and growing up from a really young age, I knew I wanted to be a physician. Honestly, it was probably like three or four years old. I remember watching the old 1970s television show called Emergency, and I just really-
Warwick Fairfax:
Yes.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
You remember that? All right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh yeah.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Same generation. Good.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Well anyway, the role of the physician, the doctor really resonated with me. I just thought it was neat. And so I started saying ... My parents tell me now that I wanted to be a doctor from a really, really young age. I went to a great college preparatory school from seventh grade onward and was blessed to have a wonderful education. And the further I got in my education, I began to see science as the way to truth. And as a person of science, I overemphasized that and really abrogated anything spiritual to the backseat. I wasn't sure that existed and science seemed to explain the natural world and what occurred, and so I went with that.
So growing up really wasn't a person of faith to any large degree, and that got worse in college as it often does. I really looking back was very selfish young man and was all about me, myself, and I. I'm embarrassed to say that, but it's the truth. And I studied very hard in medical school initially ... I'm sorry, in undergraduate. My first semester, just a month or so into school, I got a very severe case of mononucleosis. And it was so severe I thought initially it was just pharyngitis strep throat or something like that. And so I really blew it off. I thought, oh, this will get better in a few days and just gargle and that sort of thing. But by the time I actually sought medical help, it was my roommate and my suitemates who said, "You've got to go down to student health." I couldn't move at that point, Warwick. I was so fatigued. My throat hurt so badly I could not swallow. I'd lost a lot of weight in a really short period of time and they knew something was wrong. And so they took me to student health. I had an enlarged liver, enlarged spleen. I just let this go and they diagnosed me with mononucleosis.
I was actually in the hospital just for supportive care for almost two weeks and missed a lot of class. And obviously I was taking a pre-med track, and so I was taking biology and chemistry among other things. And I got way behind and met with my advisor after I was discharged and he said, "Tom, I really think you ought to withdraw from some classes. Probably the harder ones, like the science classes." And where I went to school was at that time pretty small college and they didn't have where you could take chemistry one or biology one second semester, you had to take it first semester. And so if I dropped out, I couldn't take the chemistry two. Anyway, I couldn't take it second semester, so I'd be a year behind on the pre-med track. And I just thought, that's unacceptable. I don't want to waste a year. So I foolishly did not take that advice and kept going forward and ended up getting two Cs and both in biology and chemistry, the rest for A's and Bs.
It was very humbling. I had never gotten a C in my life, let alone in a class, but I think on a paper test, I don't think I'd ever gotten Cs. I've done very well. And I met with my pre-med advisor and he said, "Tom, you're obviously not going to medical school, so you might want to think about another major." And indignant, I said, "No, sir. Well, I am going to medical school." I was respectful, but I said, "Eat my dust and I'm going to get a new advisor, somebody who's more encouraging." Always said respectfully. Anyway, so I did. And the rest of my time at Wake Forest, I studied really hard and almost had a 4.0 the rest of the time. And so it did help bring my grade point average up. So by the time it was time to apply to medical schools, the same advisor I met with, because he was in charge of the pre-med committee, he met with me and said, "Oh, well, we highly recommend you to medical school." I didn't say I told you so. He might not have even remembered what he told me three and a half years earlier. So he said, "Where do you want to go?" And I said, "My state medical school." He said, "You should have no problem getting in there with your grades and your activities and your MCAT scores." And I thought, "Great. That's where I want to go."
After applying, I got a interview very early on, which was a good sign. It's a rolling admission. And the interviews went great at my state medical college and I truly expected to get an acceptance letter any day now. And so every day from October my senior year in college on through my graduation, I checked the mailbox and there was nothing there. It got humbling, but then scary and I was puzzled like, "Why don't they let me know?" And they didn't put me on the wait list, which usually they'll do if they think, "Ah, he's okay, but we're not sure. Maybe something will open up." But they just didn't let me know. And graduation came around and I still hadn't heard. So I went home that summer in late May of '92 and still checked the mailbox every day, really hoping to get a letter, but my confidence was waning.
And then one muggy day in June, I grabbed my trusty dog, Murph, and we went down to the mailbox and I found a very thin letter, which I knew spelled bad news. Opened it on the spot and there was a few line rejection and I was just crestfallen. Everything I'd worked for one, be a physician since a very young age and worked really hard to overcome some early academic setbacks have been taken from me, and I was led to believe I was a really good candidate. And on paper, I was. I was just puzzled. I started tearing and I thought, geez, what do I do? I didn't want to go back to my home. I knew my parents were there and they'd start asking questions and scrambling around, and I just didn't feel like facing that. I felt like I needed to process it. So I had my dog and I thought, well, I'm just going to go for a walk and try to clear my head. But my head was swirling. I was so upset and tearful.
I hadn't made it very far. Made it to the house next door, and I stopped in the middle of the road and I'm embarrassed to say this is how I addressed the almighty. But I stopped and said something along these lines, God, I'm not really even sure you exist and if you do, why in the world would you let this happen to one of your children? This isn't fair. I worked hard for this. And I said, "I'll tell you what, if you exist, you need to show me right now. I'm not asking you to get me into medical school, but I've worked hard for this and I'm lost, and you need to show me what path you want me to take. And if you do that and show your reality, I'll follow you the rest of my life." And not expecting any answer whatsoever, and to my shock, immediately I felt an otherworldly presence. I don't know how else to describe it. Words don't do it justice. It felt as though this piece instantaneously embraced me. I came to realize in retrospect that whoever listened to me ... I prayed a silent prayer. Heard me, and then responded, and I wasn't expecting that, and I felt a duty to figure out who or what that was.
So that started my journey of spiritual exploration. Long story short, I made it back to my house. I went in, my parents were very upset and they started scrambling immediately. Well, let's pull some strings. They knew some people. And I didn't really care. I just thought it's going to be okay. And my dad said I remember, "Why are you so calm?" Because they were not. And I didn't want to explain to them. I thought they might think I was crazy or lost my mind. So I just said, "Yeah, I think it's going to be okay." And they looked at me puzzled. So they got on the horn behind the scenes. Turned out my mom knew the dean from another medical school in Georgia that I hadn't applied to. It was a newer medical school. It was kind of geared to rural medicine, which wasn't really my interest. And she called him and he surprisingly said, "Well, I'd be happy to interview Tom. I can't guarantee he'll get in." But it seemed like there was hope because I would be a very good candidate for their program. And I thought, well, maybe they'll open the spot for me. But still weren't really sure this was the right way. It didn't feel right.
So the next week when I was heading down south for that interview, got dressed up in my Sunday best, and I lingered on the couch and my mom came in and said, "Tommy, you've got to go. You're going to be late. I set all this up." I said, "Yes, ma'am." So I walked to the back door and I kissed my mom and dad.
And y'all remember back in the days when phones were on the wall. Anyways, our laundry room. And the phone on the wall rang literally as I was touching the doorknob to leave. And I remember my mom answered it and said, really puzzled, was like, "Yes, yes." And so I stopped like, "What's going on with her?" And she said, "Yeah, he's right here." And she put her hand over the phone and thrust it in my direction and said, "It's for you." And I was like, "Who is it?" And she goes, "It's for you." And thrust it in my face. And I answered the phone. And on the other end, I had been waitlisted at a private medical school in my state, and it turned out the dean of admissions was calling me and said, "Tom, a spot has opened up. Would you be willing to accept this spot and join our class of 1996? Classes start next week so there's not much time." And I said, "Yes, sir," and I hung up the phone. They're like, "What happened?" I told them and it was just jubilation ensued. And that really started me on this spiritual journey that wow, something cared, listened to me. And even though I was disrespectful and he answered my prayer and gave me the desires of my heart, not because it was my desire, but because looking back it was his will and I finally surrendered and submitted.
Warwick Fairfax:
You're in medical school. So tell me what led you to psychiatry? Because not everybody wants to do that. Some one of these surgeons. There's a lot of different specialties. Neurology. A lot of things you could go into. But why psychiatry?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
So I saw a flyer in my fourth year in our medical school, and it said, "The law school is looking for medical students to be a mock expert witness in a medical malpractice case for our moot court, and we'll pay you, and it's on a Saturday morning." And I was like, "That sounds fun and I could make a little money." So anyway, I signed up for that and I went to court. They were very serious. They acted like it was a real case. And because this was the law students, they got a grade for this. It was important to them. I was just there getting paid. But they gave me a transcript of, okay, your doctor so-and-so and it was a malpractice case that had to do with surgery. I supposedly tied the suture wrong, and then they were also suing the company that made the suture.
Anyway, so I got up there on the stand as the expert witness and really enjoyed it. And I think did a pretty good job because afterwards the judge caught me on the way to the parking lot and said, "Hey, young man." I said, "Yes sir, your honor." And he said, "What's your name?" Introduced ourselves. And he said, "You were really good up there." I said, "Well, thank you, your honor. I appreciate that." He goes, "Have you ever thought about doing that for a career?" And I was like, "Doing what?" He said, "Being an expert witness." I said, "No." And he said, "Well, you might want to consider it." He said, "I think you're really good at it. And that's needed in law for us to have experts to give judges guidance on these things." And I thought, "Oh, okay." And so I went home and I looked it up. I was like, "What is he talking about?" And I found forensic psychiatry. And I was like, "I would love that. That sounds great." So my goal then, I was like, "I think I want to be a forensic psychiatrist."
In order to do that, you have to do at least a four-year residency in psychiatry. And again, I didn't really know what that was. I had a psychiatry rotation, but I thought, "Well, gee, if I'm going to go into this, I better do another rotation." So I did one with a private practice, which was more my speed, and I loved it to my surprise. And that was the goal. I was like, "I'm going to be a forensic psychiatrist." And my wife supported me, and my family was very puzzled. My dad was a dentist, so he was used to doing things and fixing things and then boom, we're done. See you next year. And he just said, "You're doing what?" He goes, "We paid for four years of medical school for you to do that?" He just didn't understand it. He later came to appreciate it. He never did understand it because he doesn't have that bent at all. But at any rate, that's what I chose. And it was the road less traveled and never looked back. I love it. I've been blessed to get a great education and have wonderful people around me, and it's been fantastic. Good fit for me.
Warwick Fairfax:
So before we get into the 12 steps of Ruachiatry, which I found fascinating, talk a bit about the spiritual and the physical, and the biological, because it seems like ... And obviously you talk about this a lot in the book, doctors are trained medically that they focus on that and not always thinking about holistically. It's like, I'm not trying to make fun of doctors, but if your cholesterol is high, you need to take a statin. Okay. That could be helpful in some cases. But what about diet and exercise? Isn't preventative helpful? Again, some might actually say, "Hey, before I give you a statin," but some might not. Depends on the doctor and their background, their training, their medical philosophy. But I think what you're advocating is more for holistic, not just physical. And again, obviously you're a doc, not against medicine. But talk about how holistic is maybe a better approach, including the spiritual. So talk about your philosophy of medicine, which not every doctor may share necessarily. What's your philosophy of, I guess, healing rather than curing or preventative medicine? Just talk philosophically about what your approach is.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. Like I said, early in my training, I had become a spiritual person based on my own experience. And simultaneously as I was going through my own spiritual journey, had the privilege of obviously starting to see patients. And what I've found was that even when they were really sick or in despair, there was an undeniable tendency for those with a religious foundation to have better coping but also better health outcomes in general. And so it puzzled made that, why aren't we talking about spirituality at all in our medical curriculum, both in medical school and then I found later in residency as well. When I was in residency, this puzzled me and I was at Duke and there was attending named Harold Koenig at Duke who is an expert in spirituality and medicine. And I started reading his stuff and found that there are over 3000 studies showing the benefits of having a religious faith background. And again, it just puzzled me.
We are trained in medical school on what's called the biopsychosocial paradigm, and that was introduced by a fellow named George Engel in 1977. And so that is standard in medical curricula in the United States. But even though medicine had a spiritual beginning ... If you look back centuries, even millennia, the people who were doing most of the medical treatments ... Back then, of course they were herbs, not for pharmaceutical company and whatnot. But they were the shaman or the medical man or the priest and that sort of thing. And the fact that that had been totally ignored in modern medicine was puzzling to me. So finding this information that it can be helpful and seeing that in my own practice, I really started to think, well, we need to integrate this into medical care. And something in the '90 when I was training was called the biopsychosocial spiritual approach. So they tried to add the spirituality component to it and it never really caught on to a large degree Warwick. And again, the further I got, I thought this is really helpful. I don't know why that could be.
When I went through my own both physical and spiritual battles as I aged, I felt like there needed to be a more systematized approach to this for patients because somewhat selfishly to some degree, I'd had a lot of problems back in 2019. My dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease and watching the greatest guy become a shell of himself and being robbed of his humanity and watching my poor mom having to take care of him, and then COVID hit and we were trying to keep him out of a nursing facility, but it became increasingly hard to keep him at home. I just thought he'll die if he goes there. He'll never get out with COVID and who knows how long that's going to last.
But also with COVID, there were challenges. I had some physical illnesses turning 50 for the first time in my life that were pretty serious and even had to take some time off of work. In addition to time away from practice from COVID was trying to help mom with dad to some degree. And all this along with just ... I had three teenage kids running a private practice that I owned and trying to be there for my wife as well was overwhelming. And so I decided to try to systematize it honestly initially for my benefit. And I found it to be wildly beneficial and always wanting to help patients. As I went along, I thought maybe this could be turned into some kind of paradigm that we could help patients. In 2022, I also suffered some trauma in my church that I'd attended for over 20 years, and there was really intense spiritual warfare. That led me ... And my father had passed recently. Led me to start writing.
I actually started writing with my pastor. He had a PhD and had written books before and such, and I had written anything since college and I thought, I don't know what I'm doing and I don't know if anybody will read this or publisher probably wouldn't be interested. And he and I started writing together and it was not far into the process where Dr. Mills said to me, he said, "Tom, I think this is your book." And I was scared. I said, "No David, I really need you. I need you to help me with this." And he said, "No." He said, "I think you have a message to say here and I think it's for you." And he said, "Look, I'm in the business and people may not hear it from me that they expect me to say these things, but coming from you, it might be seen differently." And again, I didn't like what he said, but with trepidation, I went out on my own and over the next couple of years wrote the book at night and on weekends and things of that nature.
And finally got it done in 2024 and approached a friend of mine who's a ghostwriter, and he said, "Well, let me look at the manuscript." I said, "Okay." And he looked at it and he said, "Tom, I think you've got something here." He said, "I really think this could be a special book." And I was like, "Really? Wasn't expecting that. I was expecting to self-publish it and just be Vanity Press or something." And he said, "Let me edit it and put some polish on it and then I'm going to introduce you to my publisher." And I said, "Wow. Okay." And so he did that, and this was late 2024 and Greenleaf Publishing accepted later in the year and early 2025, we started the process of having them help me edit it a lot on coming up with cover and all the things that I'm sure you're aware of having written a book go into. And it's due October 28th and really excited about it. I hope it helps a lot of people.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, I want to jump in here just for a second because I think we're at a pivot point in the conversation, and I want to make this point because you've described Tom as we've been going through your story, your first crucible situation. You didn't get into law school and you used this phrase when you were talking about who you were at that time. You said that you were all about me, myself, and I. That was your words about where you were at then. You've then just described another round of crucibles with some health challenges for you, your father passing away, some problems in your church. And it seems like in those situations your focus was not totally on yourself. For people who are listening to this and their crucibles are going to be different in detail, but the emotions will be the same, what's the difference? Why did the second way that you dealt with it not being me, myself and I, how did that help you get through those crucibles that you faced?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. That's a great question. Well, as a person of faith, I came to believe the word of God that says that the highest two commandments are love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength, mind and also love your neighbor as yourself. And going into medicine being really clearly in retrospect, a calling from a young age, I just grew to love people and started seeing myself as less important. That I was a vessel for God to use to help people. And that was my mission in life. I came to see that very differently. And because of that deep desire to help people and show them the way I also became convicted that I can't show people the way if I don't have it myself. It's the same with physical health.
And what I mean by that is in medical school, there's a very famous cardiologist who literally wrote the book Cardiology, and he would lecture to us and then I would see him between lectures go outside and chain-smoke. And I just thought, wow, this is like a world-famous cardiologist who would tell everybody not to smoke and he's not doing it. I wasn't being judgment. I just thought that's a little hypocritical. As I practice medicine, I don't want to do that. I don't want to tell people. Or you said, "Hey, diet, exercise," and then have me be out of shape and that sort of thing. So same thing happened here. It had been helpful for me and I wanted to get the message out and see if I could help other people.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about Ruachiatry. Before we get into the 12 steps. At a high level Ruachiatry what's the philosophical underpinnings? What does it mean?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, ruach in Hebrew means spirit, and iatry obviously comes from a Greek word iatrea which means treatment of. And so this is a spiritual treatment that I came up with. I coined that term for better or worse, but I think I wanted to give it one term that maybe would be memorable to incorporate the spiritual component that's been neglected in medicine. So yeah, that's it in a nutshell.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it's interesting. You did a study with Ruachiatry, with people I think that had depression, and you have a bunch of things like the Beck Depression inventory that I guess I'm sure psychiatrists, but all know what that means. The rest of us probably don't. Talk about how in that study using these principles actually had very significant health benefits. Talk about that because must've been affirming to you.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
So in seeing it being helpful in my own life, I thought, well, if I'm going to have a systematic approach to help patients, I want some empirical evidence that it is in fact helpful, not just my own experience. And that's how the study came to be. It was a 12-week study where we had people who were treatment resistant, which we defined as having three or more standard of care antidepressant treatments to deal with their depression and also psychotherapy. And during the trial before people signed up, we told them, Hey, during this 12 weeks you cannot change your medication or your therapy scheduled if you're currently in psychotherapy. And we had a number of people signed up. Now some of them dropped out because they were so severe that they needed changes in their treatment, but most of the people stayed. And what we found at the end of the 12 weeks, we met with them weekly and went over the 12 steps each week or met them at their own pace. Some people, if they had a spiritual underpinning got through steps one and two pretty quickly, other people might need to spend more time there and such.
But anyway, over the 12 weeks, what we found was that initially the cohort had a Beck Depression Inventory score of ... I believe it was about 32, which is in the severe range. By the end of the study, the mean Beck Depression score had dropped to 14, which is in the mild region. So over a 50% drop and also just improvement in their functionality.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about these steps. So steps one through three, acceptance, searching, and submission. Just give us a bit of an overview of the first three steps of Ruachiatry.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. The first step you have to accept your powerlessness over your illness. And this might seem self-evident, but it is actually harder in practice because people have a lot of psychological mechanisms to deal with illness. And the first step of any kind of grieving for the loss of a loved one or just loss of functioning and health is denial. And it's very common, especially early on. The sooner we physicians can move our patients toward acceptance, the better, the quicker they are on the road to help. And so that's super important.
And then the second part of step one is commitment. Once you've accepted, "Hey, I'm powerless over this and I need help of a physician or therapist or a team," then saying, "I am committed to fighting this. I'm going to take the first steps to dig my heels in and say, 'This is hard. I don't want to do this. I'm a peaceful person. I don't want to fight, but I'm in a fight and I've got to be committed to that fight.'" Step two is searching, like I mentioned earlier. And this is where I encourage people to embark on a journey to fulfill their personal responsibility, to decide for themselves if there is a higher power, which one? Who is it? And because this acknowledgement can help people have hope and better cope with illness. And so to me that's foundational.
Gary Schneeberger:
Step two is interesting to me because I have an AA background. I went through AA in the early '90s. And the idea of a higher power of my own understanding worked for a while because I did not grow up Christian, not even nominally. But eventually as I was walking through my recovery, I started to think, God of my own understanding, isn't my own understanding what got me in this position to begin with? How is that going to help me necessarily? It wasn't enough for me. Now you will not find a greater advocate for AA. But that didn't work for me. And my story, people have heard it on the podcast because Warwick interviewed me for our 50th episode. It was a little stunt on our host interviews, cohost. But I do believe at the end of the day, God healed me of that. And I don't refer to myself as a recovering alcoholic. I believe I leaned into that and God just plucked it out of me. But that part of what you said about who is that God of your understanding, I think that's an important part for people because it's our understanding that for me, it got me in trouble. That's what made me an alcoholic and I couldn't get away from it. And I think that's probably true through your experience over a lot of different kind of illnesses, right?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
It is. And that's great insight. Actually the 12 steps were born out of that because that's already in our lexicon. It's already in medical parlance from AA, which started in the 1930s. And because of that, I started looking into AA. We had to do substance abuse stuff during residency, but it's not really my specialty. But in looking at the research and is there a branch of medicine that talks about spirituality at all? The only branch is addictionology and AA is the foundation of that. And that's where I came up with the idea of 12 steps. I actually contacted the folks from National AA in New York, and they were very encouraging and said I could use it as a template, but I just had to put a disclaimer that I'm not affiliated with AA at all and that sort of thing, which I put in the book of course.
But yeah. A study out of Stanford not too long ago, I think it was 2021, had 10,500 and something subjects. And their conclusion was that AA is a free resource that doesn't take professionals or physicians and that it works. And it works fantastic for the malady of alcoholism if people are active in the program. And just saying, "Wow. If that could be applied to general medicine and psychiatry as well, what would that mean?" If we could have something that worked that was free ... We're always talking about, oh, healthcare costs and stuff, what would that mean if a part of our sickness is due to spiritual issues? And so that's how I came up with the 12 step approach.
Warwick Fairfax:
So after searching before we move to step four, you've got submission. Submission is not a very popular word in our culture, but you talk about once we identify the spiritual power greater than ourselves, we decide to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. Submitting ourselves to a higher power to God. So talk before we get to the next one after that, why is submission important? Because it feels like counter cultural. How could submission help me?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
It is probably same with Australians as it is with American. Yeah, submission is a dirty word, right? It has a connotation of groveling at the feet of somebody who's conquered you. So you've lost and you're having to against your will do something you don't want to do. But in spirituality, it has a different connotation. If you've identified in step two, a higher power that hopefully is benevolent and powerful enough to help you with your illness, submission should be a reasonable idea. Why wouldn't I submit to somebody who loves me and is powerful? We submit to our parents. We a lot of times, submit to the state for better or worse. But they still are sinful entities and they're not all powerful. So if there is something that's all powerful and willing to help, why the heck wouldn't you consider submitting? But yeah. Submission is hard even for people of faith. We have our own strong self-will, we also have a system in place that the Bible says is run by the devil. The Bible says our three enemies of the world system, which he runs, the flesh, which is our own fallen physical nature with its appetites that we want gratified. And then the devil himself and his spiritual cohorts that are out to get us. So that's where submission comes from and it's super important.
I find that a lot of people who are believers tell me, "Hey, Dr. Mac, these first three, I got those." And I say, "Wait a second. Let's go through them and just make sure." Because I find even with believers, they obviously have submitted to some degree, but most of us have an area of our life that we say, "You know God, you can have 95%, but I'm going to hold this little piece for myself." Whether we're willing to admit that or not. Nobody is completely submitted usually and just identifying, "Hey, are there any areas you haven't turned over to God? And let's explore the reason for that." But the more you get to know God and know who he is, it just makes sense. Wow, why wouldn't I turn everything over to him?
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's talk about the next step you've got. Step four is trauma and lies. You've got step five, choosing forgiveness, which we talk about a lot. Traumas we inflicted upon others. I have to say, the worksheets you have in here were really impressive. You've got a worksheet for inventory of traumas that you've suffered, and the questions here are so specific and clear. Who hurt you? What did they do? Was it intentional? Unintentional? Lies, I believe a result of my hurt, truth according to my higher power, degree of current resentment, ask God for their strengths to forgive. And then flip it the other way, when we've inflicted harm on others, the worksheet says, whom did you hurt? What did you do? Was it intentional or unintentional? What could you have done instead? What was the nature of your character defect involved? Had you forgiven yourself admitted to God, another person, the nature of your answers? Powerful questions. Talk about these. Trauma and lies, choosing forgiveness and then traumas be inflicted upon others. Let's talk about those steps.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Sure. So steps four through nine, I call radical renovation. You're cleaning out the house, so to speak, and this is really hard work, and it takes that commitment we talked about in step one. And because of that, a lot of times for people who've had a harder time, it might involve a competent psychotherapist to help them work through this or maybe a Ruachiatry coach somebody who's trained in the principles of Ruachiatry. But step four is super important, and I tell people, take your time, especially on step four and five. It's so foundational and fundamental because we are according to the Bible, born with a fallen nature. And people say, "Our baby's sinful?" Well, if you ever had a two-year-old, you can see how selfish they are and throw tantrums. Yes, from the womb we are innately sinful. I don't mean we sin all the time, but we have that nature. And because of that, it's easier for our spiritual foes to blind us. And those who are fortunate enough to either grow up with a faith background from their family or who come to their senses because either God plucks them out or somebody tells them about it, they're now spiritually awakened and they can see things differently. But everybody has trauma to varying degrees.
And what I talk about in the book is trauma with a big T, a capital T, and then traumas with a little T. Now traumas with a big T, as far as your physical health, it could be having some terrible injury, compound bone fracture or things of that nature, cancer and things of that nature as well. And then other traumas could be things that we would all say, "Oh gosh, yeah." War, rape, watching somebody die horrifically. These sorts of things are big things that most of us don't have to go through, but some people unfortunately have. But we all have little T traumas, and these are things that we accumulate during our life. Hurt people, hurt people and we're all hurt people. And so these accumulate, and what I've found is that a lot of little T traumas can add up to big T trauma. And so we all need to look back and say, "Hey, before I was a person of faith, these things have accumulated and I need to go back, unlock the cellar door and see what's down there and deal with it, not just bury it."
And so this is a hard step, firstly, admitting and looking in the mirror and saying, what are the traumas? But who hurt me, whether it's a person or an institution. And I tell people, go back to childhood, write down everything. And so this list can be super long, which is great. It should be because you have traumas. And trauma is in the eye of the beholder. And what we found with resilience research is that what I see as traumatic, you fellas might look at it and be like, "Well, that's a piece of cake." Because we all have different coping mechanisms and see things differently. But it doesn't matter. If I experienced it as traumatic, I have the same physiologic response, I have the same psychological response and so it's traumatic to me. So going through in every individual listing these things is super important and who did it? And then identifying was it intentional or not?
What I've found is that traumas that are either born of happenstance, acts of God or war things you couldn't control or just accidental, they weren't purposeful ... Somebody hurt you, but they didn't mean to. It wasn't malicious, but they still hurt you. Those are easier to forgive even if the person doesn't come to you and ask for forgiveness. It's a lot harder when we look and say, "Gee, that was intentionally inflicted and they were trying to hurt me and that sort of thing." So that's an important aspect.
Step five goes on to another foundational truth. And that is so important. If you don't forgive completely and fully, you are carrying around what the Bible calls a root of bitterness. So this understandable anger based on you've been hurt. It can grow over time. And what I tell people is that it grows into resentment. Meaning again, sentiment comes from sentire, which is Latin that means feeling it. And so you're choosing to feel the same emotion you felt when you're hurt again and again. And it's just simply madness. And so just recognizing that this is a prison of your own choosing. And when you choose forgiveness, you choose to set two captives free. You set the person free who did this to you, but you set yourself free as well. And forgiveness is hard, especially if the person does not apologize and was malicious about it. But it's so important and it's really necessary. And that can take some time, as I mentioned.
And then looking at our own selves in the mirror. Hey, hurt people, hurt people. I've hurt people. It's not just all about me. What have I done and what potential character defects, looking at what's gone on in my own journey and identifying and look in the mirror and saying, "These are things I need to correct in order for me to be whole." And then seven is making amends where you can .this isn't always advisable nor possible to do, but when it is, it's important to reach out to people whom you've hurt and offer genuine remorse and try to make it right if you can.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's fascinating that you talk about this because Beyond the Crucible, we talk about forgiveness a lot. And we say, as obviously, I'm sure you would believe that forgiveness doesn't mean condoning what was done to you. It doesn't mean what was done to you was right, acceptable, moral. But you do it because obviously as people of faith, because we've been forgiven, those who've been forgiven much should forgive. So we often say that choosing not to forgive is like drinking poison. It just corrodes your soul. And the other thing with forgiveness is I often tell people and our church and all, it is rare that somebody will say, "I apologize," in my opinion. It can happen but most of the times they'll say, "Well, I'm sorry if that hurt you." Sorry if is never ... I tell all my kids, sorry if is not an apology. That just does not cut it.
So you've got to realize when bad things are done to you, you will rarely get the satisfaction because of the world we live in. It just won't happen most of the time. So we've make amends in the last few steps we've got from fear to faith, vigilant and sober. And then I think you've got drawing closer to God seeking spiritual wisdom. So really from eight instead of a turning point. So talk about that turning point from theater, faith and vigilant and sober drawing closer to God. Talk about how that helps your spiritual recovery if you will.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Sure. Four, five and six deal with anger, which sometimes it's like you said, if you're heard, it is justified. And so step eight deals with the other emotion that I find to be very problematic and where people get stuck and that's fear, which is very common in today's world, the state of flux that our world is in. The political discord. Obviously the pandemic that happened. There's a lot of fear and some of it's certainly understandable, but I've seen it grow in my practice with folks presenting with anxiety is super common. I think there's a spiritual way to combat it in addition to certainly some people need therapy and medicine also, and I'm not against that. To get them fully there, I think going from fear to faith is a big leap and trying to help people understand how to do that. And again, that's a process, right? Fear didn't happen overnight. A lot of times it's grown over time and additional things have happened that make one more fearful. And so that's the step there.
As far as vigilant and sober, sobriety doesn't always necessarily just mean from alcohol or drugs, although think it's best to be sober from those as well. We are all influenced. We say, "Oh, so-and-so got a DUI. They were under the influence of alcohol, right? Oh, that's bad." We can be under the influence of negative spiritual enemies as well and just unwittingly not know about it. So being sober in that regard, and like you alluded to earlier, think on things that are good and positive. We found out through research lately that thoughts are things. They actually have mass and they're not a separate thing. They're part of our soul, our mind, will and emotion. And so they're important. What you think determines your destiny to a large degree. And so reframing things from fear to faith and having that foundation is super important. And then being vigilant. Once you've cleaned out from steps four through nine, now you got to keep it clean. And so that's where the vigilance of the guard on the wall comes into play.
10 through 12 are more ... I was drawing closer to God. And James says in the Bible that draw close to God and he will draw close to you. And I found that to be true in my own spiritual walk. And so Step 10 talks about seeking spiritual wisdom. There is worldly wisdom, and it is not bad. I'm not against philosophy. But the issue with human philosophies, even from the most brilliant people, Plato, Socrates, these folks and others, is that the philosophy from spirituality is fixed. And it's this rock that doesn't change over the millennia. Whereas human philosophy, there are lots of different schools of thoughts and it can change with time just like science and new discoveries can. And so it's a shifting sand, so to speak. And so you shouldn't rely on it for your spiritual wellbeing, but certainly there's wisdom to be had from secular searches of philosophy.
But scripture and then lastly, prayer and meditation. And I go into depth about these things that whatever you decide is your higher power, study the orthodox teachings of your faith and get their spiritual books that they feel are inspired and principles are worth living by. And then prayer. I know for a fact that some spiritual being heard me, I believe it's God and Jesus, but at any rate, prayer works. There are lots of studies on that too that aren't talked about in medical school or even in general life, but prayer does work. And adding with that, a meditation upon scripture, meditation on truths, the health benefits of meditation are well-known. But the goal of meditation, unlike transcendental meditation for example, isn't to empty your mind, it's to fill your mind with truth and have that be the focus of your thoughts.
Warwick Fairfax:
There might be somebody here who maybe today is their worst day, and it's like, "I feel spiritually empty, bankrupt. There is no hope. I'm not sure anybody cares about me. There's no higher power that cares." They might be in a very dark place. What would a word of hope be for somebody that maybe today is their worst day and they just feel spiritually bankrupt? They might hate themselves, hate other people hate the world. They might be in a very dark spiritual in soul place. What would a word of hope be for that person?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. I would say to that person, you are so important. You have no idea the importance that you carry. You are made in the image of God. As difficult as that is to fathom, it's the truth in my opinion. And if you haven't already, I would encourage you to explore, especially the God who claims to be the creator of you and everything. Who claims to be all-powerful and who claims to be omniscient so he can hear your prayers. He knows everything at all times and he's omnipresent. He's not bound by location. So whether you're in the middle of the desert or in church, he hears your prayers just the same. And he also claims to be Jehovah Rapha, which means God the healer. He claims to be the great physician. And if you reach out to him and really earnestly search, you'll find the truth. There is hope. But it doesn't come in things that the world offers. Their passing away as the Bible says. And the only thing that won't pass away is our souls. And you're going to spend eternity somewhere and why not go ahead and surrender your own will to God so that you can be one of those people who is assured that you're going to spend forever with a loving God.
And also remind people you will eventually be healed. If you're a believer. People think, oh, you die and you can either go to heaven or hell, sort of true. But the truth of matter is God made a perfect world. He said everything was good and it got wrecked by us and the influences that influenced us negatively. But the good news is he promises he's coming back and he's going to restore everything to its perfect state. In fact, at some point, he is going to make a new heaven and a new earth because this one's a mess and he's going to remake us. Our bodies will die, but he's going to give us new bodies that will be eternal and that will be without sin, sickness, or death. So if you're a believer, you have that assurance, you will get out of your trouble at some point. And the Bible says even that our troubles in light of eternity are light and momentary. And they may not feel light. They may not feel light. You may say, "Dr. McCormack, you don't know what I'm going through." I do. I sit with people in pain every day, and I've been through my own. There is hope and there's a way out. So I'd encourage you to examine what you believe about a higher power.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word on the subject has been spoken, and our guest, Tom McCormack, also known as Dr. Thomas McCormack, has just spoken about the substance of what we're talking about, but I've still got a little housekeeping left to do, and that is Tom, to have you let our listeners and viewers know how can they find out more about your book Hidden Medicine and more about you on the internet.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, thanks Gary. I have a website called www.hidden-medicine.com. Usually you could find me if you type in Hidden Medicine or Dr. Thomas McCormack. But also the book Hidden Medicine is available now on Amazon for pre-sale. It will be in bookstores everywhere on October 28 so coming up real shortly. And it's my sincere desire that it helps a lot of people give some clarity to some of these things that a lot of people find confusing. Really tried to write it for lay people. And my second hope is that the medical community will embrace it and realize that yeah, there are things beyond medicine and surgery and therapies that we're missing. We've left untapped and we need to tap into that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks. Now, the plane is indeed fully on the ground. Time to gather your peanut bags and head off the plane. Warwick, we just got done speaking with Tom McCormack, which felt weird to me because he's Dr. Thomas McCormack. So I always felt strange every time I called him Tom. I don't know why. It's the old soul in me. I can't refer to a doctor except by doctor, but we did it. He had some very interesting things to talk about from his own experience, his crucible, not getting into medical school, some other ones that followed after he was a doctor already, and then his new book, Hidden Medicine, some things that he talked about there. So what is the little bow on the package you'd like to put on our conversation to hit on? What was the most important thing that Tom had to say to us?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Dr. McCormack, Tom and his book, Hidden Medicine, it's so interesting because he's a psychiatrist, so he's not against medicine, Western medicine, but what he is I think advocating is for a more holistic view of health, which includes the spiritual side. And he talks about negative forces. Some could call it spiritual warfare, which he talks about a bit in his book, but negative influences. If we are watching the wrong things that just pull us down and just make us feel depressed about life, angry at ourselves, angry at others, just indulging that. It can be through substance abuse, alcohol or drugs. Those are things that erode our soul in addition to obviously they can hurt our health. He's advocating just be aware of that. Be aware of those forces that can really pull us down if we let them. Life is tough enough, but just really talking about things in his 12 steps of Ruachiatry that really fill us up. And he talked about things like forgiveness which should talk a lot about on this podcast, which doesn't mean condoning. It can be forgiving others, forgiving yourself, and just it can be making amends, filling yourself with truth. From his perspective and our perspective that could mean that the truth of the scriptures of the Bible. But whatever your spiritual religious paradigm is, fill yourself with truth.
Avoid the negative influences. Focus on the positive and didn't really get this into this in our discussion, but focus on what we call a life of significance. In the book, he does talk about one of the highest forms, I think spiritual, psychological health talks about other ... When you're focused on, from my perspective, a higher purpose or on helping other people, that's certainly, I think to me, a good part of spiritual health and soul health. So really, I think the big message is when we are told to focus on what we eat, avoid foods that are unhealthy. fill yourself with healthy foods, well, the same is true in spiritual health. Avoid influences that bring your soul down and fill yourself with influences that are good for your soul. That will both help your overall wellness as well as your overall outlook on life. So what's fascinating is he comes at it from a psychiatric clinical perspective, and his view is soul health, in my words and our words really [inaudible 00:59:15]. Avoid the things that drag you down. Fill yourself with truth, whether it's biblical truth or whatever truth you think is meaningful to you. Fill yourself with truth. That is the path to spiritual health and soul health.
Gary Schneeberger:
And remember this until the next time that we are together that we understand. We know your crucible experiences are difficult. Warwick knows that. Tom knows that. I know that. You've heard us all talk about that either here or in other episodes of the show. But know this also. That it's not the end of your story. Your crucible is not the end of your story. If you learn the lessons from it, and if you apply those lessons moving forward, you can chart yourself a course to the greatest destination you can ever reach, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready, visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Applying the Actionable Truths 8: Perseverance
Arriving at the place after a crucible where you believe you have what it takes to overcome setbacks and failures is only possible, we discuss today, if we’re able to muster and maintain perseverance.
That’s why it’s the 8th actionable truth in our Beyond The Crucible Roadmap — essential for turning trials into triumphs. And listen closely — you won’t want to miss Warwick sharing what he learned about perseverance in bouncing back from his $2.25 billion dollar crucible.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Those early challenges are often the hardest. Once you just build that muscle of perseverance, it will feel like it's easier to move forward and maybe the vision becomes a bit more possible because you think to yourself, "I may not be perfect, but you know what? I think I have what it takes."
Gary Schneeberger:
I have what it takes. Arriving at that place after a crucible is only possible, we discussed this week, if we're able to muster and maintain perseverance. That's why it's the eighth actionable truth in our Beyond the Crucible roadmap, essential for turning trial into triumph. So keep listening. You won't want to miss Warwick sharing about what he learned about perseverance as he was bouncing back from his own $2.25 billion crucible.
Welcome friends to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. It is one of the episodes that certainly in 2025, Warwick and I have most looked forward to doing because it is on what we have been calling since the start of the year are Beyond the Crucible roadmap. And just to reset you, since we do this once a month, we call it the series within a show, we do one episode per month, this is for the month of October. And just to reset you, the Beyond the Crucible roadmap is our refreshed way, it's not an entirely new way, but it is more laser focused that we help you to get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity. And we have dubbed that the Beyond the Crucible roadmap. Why? I'm going to tell you why. I'm going to read it exactly from the page. We describe it as how we help people turn their worst day into their greatest opportunity. We provide them essential actionable truths to inspire hope, enable and equip them to write their own life affirming story. That sounds like something that is worth pursuing, doesn't it? We think so and we hope-
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Thank you, Warwick. We think so, and we hope you have been thinking so and we'll think so after we finish this episode of it. The roadmap, just to let you know for the back story, the roadmap has been built from our proprietary statistically valid research into how people experience crucibles and what we've learned from our own experience and from the experiences of the guests we've had on the podcast about what it takes to turn trials into triumph.
The most revolutionary news for us in all of this though, is that in analyzing this roadmap, we identified what we're calling the actionable truths of the brand. To pass these life-changing truths along to you, our listeners and viewers, this year, we're going to do something similar to what we did last year with our series within the show. As I said, once a month, we're going to talk about this, featuring stories from Warwick's book Crucible Leadership. That's what we did last year. Now we're going to spend 2025, we have spent 2025 up until now going through each of the 10 actionable truths one per month and exploring the ways they can help you make your way guide your path, walk your steps along this roadmap that we're talking about.
And Warwick, as I always do in these episodes, I'm going to ask you this question. Level set for us in our discussion why actionable truths? What do we mean by that phrase? Because it's not something you hear people talk about every day.
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed. At Beyond the Crucible, our focus is to help you figure out how do you get beyond your worst day to lead a life of significance? So what we have now is what we're calling beyond the Crucible roadmap, how you go from trial or crucible to triumph, which we call a life of significance. We have found that there are 10 actionable truths that are catalysts in helping you move along your journey from your worst day to where you're living a life-affirming vision. So in other words, you're triumphing and leading a life of significance. These actionable truths have always been part of our thinking and were actually chapters in the book I wrote Crucible Leadership.
Gary Schneeberger:
So that being said, how do these actionable truths actually help us move from crucible to a life of significance, move from trial to triumph? Because that's what we're all about here. And I'm going to tease just a little bit because that name, actionable truths, continues to impress me that that was what we came up with because truth isn't truth if you don't act on it. And that's really how you get from trial to triumph with the actionable truths, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
That's certainly right. I mean, these actionable truths we view as accelerators, enablers. It helps us move from a crucible or trial to a life of significance or triumph. So I think you could make a good case that without these actionable truths, you're going nowhere. It's like having an engine without fuel, or as we often refer to in The Fast and the Furious series, if you don't have nitrous oxide, you have a great car, but nothing's happening. So basically without these actionable truths, you could well be stuck at your trial, your worst data pit of despair. So get out of that pit to begin to move forward and to bring your vision to reality, to a space where you're really living a life significance. I think you can make a very good case that these actionable truths are absolutely critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
And we are on, as I said at the outset, actionable truth number eight. And just to help you understand, folks, the process of how this all works, this is the vision portion of the roadmap. Before this, we dealt with the trial. That's your crucible. That's the first big grouping. The second one is processing. You're processing what happened to you. Now you've launched a vision. You've said, "Okay, here's the vision I want to pursue." You've created a vision. So it's the last step of the vision category that we're going through.
So Warwick, now that we're here, now that we're at perseverance, why is it the critical eighth step after a crucible to begin the journey of recovering from a crucible? As you were going through this in preparation, this one seems particularly important in this process that we've been describing.
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the keys to moving beyond your worst day, your crucible is perseverance. Without perseverance, you're probably going to be stuck in the pit and the vision won't happen. Your life significance won't happen. We define perseverance as continuing to move forward in pursuit of your vision, even in the face of difficulties and obstacles. Perseverance is hope, believing in your heart of hearts that there is a brighter future ahead.
Now, we know that perseverance is not easy. You might feel knocked down. This is your worst day. You're in the pit of despair, and it's not easy to move beyond your crucible. It's not easy to move forward. But perseverance is like a muscle. With practice and some effort that muscle will grow. And really the key is that perseverance requires you to take one step at a time. And it might seem that step might seem very small. As we'll get into later, I found that very true in my own life, the power of one small step. And one step begins to form another step, and pretty soon I think you'll find that muscle of perseverance, which might've felt non-existent before, will grow and will improve. And you'll find that you have more perseverance than you thought possible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, that's one of the great things about these actionable truths is that they can grow, we can get better at them as we go. It's not like you're born with a certain level of perseverance and then that's all you get and it goes away. No, you can build it.
And I am going to do what I do every episode. Here's my enormous dictionary, which is twice as big as my head, The American Dictionary of the English Language by Noah Webster, his first dictionary from 1828. And here's what his definition of perseverance is, and it's fascinating. He says this about perseverance, "Persistence in anything undertaken, continued pursuit, continued pursuit, or prosecution of any business or enterprise begun. Patience and perseverance overcome the greatest difficulties." He quotes someone named Clarissa saying in this definition. That to me is a big thing.
And Warwick, this is a good time, I think, to point out to folks, because I got a little confused as we were... Not confused. I was a little tangled up as we were prepping, and I haven't talked to you about this. But we talk a lot about the importance of resilience in bouncing back from your crucible. And I think sometimes people can think they're sort of the same thing. But I found an article which defined perseverance, not Webster, but an article that defined perseverance as this, "A continued effort, the determination to reach a goal and work at it until you do." Right? Here's resilience. Resilience is, "The ability to be happy and successful after something difficult or traumatic has happened to you." I think perseverance and resilience are sort of cousins. They're not the same thing, but one flows into the other. And certainly resilience, though talk about it a lot, it's not one of the actionable truths that we have. But I think having them hand in hand really makes a huge difference in your ability to go from trial to triumph. Right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's a good point. I think perseverance breeds resilience. Without perseverance, you can't have resilience. So how do you get resilience? It's just when things seem to be going wrong, you just keep pressing on. It's continued effort, as the dictionary talks about. It's continued pursuit of a goal. It's not giving up, not backing down. So perseverance is, yeah, I mean perseverance is critical and you will, I think, be more resilient. If you keep having perseverance and you say, "Okay, I didn't give up the last time. I won't give up this time. It's not going to defeat me. I'm going to keep going." And that comes from just having continued perseverance over the course of your life. It is a muscle that can grow, that can breed resilience and some degree of self-confidence, "Okay, being there done that. I've been through worse than this before." It can actually lead you to having a calmer spirit in the face of trials because you've had perseverance and you've been therefore resilient. So they are cousins, but I would say it's not impossible to have unless you have perseverance first.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, right.
Warwick Fairfax:
If that makes sense?
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's why the eighth actionable truth is indeed perseverance. And as we have done with all of these sections of the roadmap, in this particular section, in the vision section, there are three stages in our research, qualitative and quantitative, that have shown us people experience in this vision section of the roadmap. And the first one is experimenting with new conditions, trials and first failures. Warwick, how does perseverance help us as we do this, as we walk this out?
Warwick Fairfax:
As we formulate our vision, we'll, undoubtedly a trial runs an experiment. Some will work, some won't work. That's the nature of experiments. And so you've got to have perseverance to be able to cope with those trial visions that didn't work out. Maybe you need to retool the vision, go in a different direction. It's critical.
So to bring our vision to reality, we'll also need help. We'll need help from what we call fellow travelers, people who both encourage us and come alongside us to move our vision forward. And we might find that some team members don't work out. They may not be a good fit, and that will lead to conversations that are often pretty challenging. We'll need to have perseverance to deal with those setbacks of potentially picking the wrong team members or team members moving on. So you need perseverance to be able to bring your vision forward through the trials, and you need to have perseverance as you're bringing team members on board. Some will work out and some won't work out. Life is not easy and bringing a vision to reality is not easy too. So perseverance is absolutely critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
I'm not a science guy. I'm a word guy. So I'm not sure of the word, but we've all seen those things where it's like a flow chart or something that you do this and then this can happen. And then you go this way and it moves up and down and it walks you through a process. I think perseverance is something bad happens. You start this new first failure, you start this first step and you hit a roadblock. And two things can happen. It can go down. You can stop. You can give up. As we say all the time. You can lie under the covers and bed with the covers over your head. Or the second one's perseverance.
I think perseverance is, in many cases, the first action toward the next goal that you have to take after a crucible. Because if you don't muster that, if you don't muster the, I'm going to walk through the wall, if I have to walk through the symbolic wall that is stopping me. If you have those stumbles and trips that follow your crucible, stopping isn't an option. So you have to have the perseverance to go through it. I think this is where the pursuit of a life of significance really can bog down of all the things on the roadmap. If we don't develop perseverance and act on that, we can high-center, we can get stuck, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. Without perseverance, you're proverbially stuck in bed, you're not moving forward, the vision isn't happening. You're stuck. So it's absolutely critical. Without perseverance, you're probably still in the pit of despair. I mean, why keep going? What's the point? You just give up. So perseverance is critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. The second major point from our research that shows as people go through in this stage of vision is growth and new skills. And that includes preparing for major change. In this particular part of the map work. What are the benefits of perseverance? And I think I know what you're going to say, not just because we talked about it beforehand.
Warwick Fairfax:
So when you think about growth and new skills, there's growing the team, growing the vision, but there's also growing yourself as a person. And they're starting with the internal so to speak. One of the first things you need to do is to think of growth and skills with you as a leader, growing and self-awareness and character and skills and abilities. And so we talk about growth and the holistic sense of the word. There'll be days in which they feel like bad days and you'll feel like, "I'm not the guy, I'm not the person. I feel wholly inadequate to the task." And you might feel like you don't have the skills and abilities. And maybe you might feel that the crucible you went through, the damage you did to yourself or the damage that was done to you caused some level of damage, enough that it's holding the vision back from reality.
So you can get in this doom loop of, "I'm not good enough and as a human being, I'm not courageous enough. I don't have enough character. I don't enough skills and abilities and perseverance," means despite all of this, putting one step in front of the other and say, "Okay, I'm not perfect. Yes, I've made mistakes. Yes, maybe I feel a little broken or a lot broken," but it's just moving forward. And sometimes it might be, depending on the severity of the illness might be, okay, maybe I need some counseling, some therapy, maybe I need to talk to friends. What do I need to do to be able to move forward to be able to, at least in some sense, heal from some of the internal damage? Are there skills and abilities that I don't have? I might have aptitude but not training. How can I get trained in that?
So there's a whole internal level of perseverance that fuels growth, and it might mean that you need to bring new team members on board. So sometimes you start with a vision. You've got one or two people on your team, either unofficially or on the payroll, and as the vision, the organization grows, you might feel they were great at one time in the journey, but you need people with different skills. And you've got to be willing to say, "Okay, maybe I need to let some people go and bring new people on board." It doesn't need to be done in a malicious way, but if you have a vision, you want to make sure you've got the people around you. And perseverance means having sometimes loving but difficult conversations. Perseverance means having the courage to have those difficult conversations.
Gary Schneeberger:
Is it safe to say, and I didn't thought about it until you just said it, that as your vision changes and grows, evolves, that your persistence in many ways has to change and grow and evolve. What you just described was different levers to push and pull on persistence depending on what's happening with your vision. That seems to be a true statement, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, as you grow in your perseverance and persistence, you will have higher perseverance, higher persistence, you will give up less. You won't stop at the first roadblock. You will have more courage, more conviction, whether it's things you need to work on about yourself, whether it's your team, maybe you've had a couple of difficult conversations with folks. It's never going to be incredibly easy, but it'll be easier the next time you have that difficult conversation.
So it is like a flywheel in that the more that you have perseverance and persistence, those boulders will seem a little smaller. They may not be in reality, but will feel smaller to you. And so those early challenges are often the hardest. Once you just build that muscle of perseverance, it will feel like it's easier to move forward and maybe the vision becomes a bit more possible because you think to yourself, "I may not be perfect, but you know what? I think I have what it takes. There's an obstacle here. I don't have the answer today. But between me and my team, we'll figure it out. We did before. No reason to believe we won't do it again."
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. The third big area in this vision section of the roadmap is preparing for big change, grand trial and revelation and insight. How does perseverance help us move along in this section of the roadmap?
Warwick Fairfax:
So when we're trying to get from our worst day to a life-affirming vision that leads to a life of significance, there's often going to be inflection points, significant change where we'll need a high perseverance. The first one is just deciding to get out of bed, proverbially speaking, and we feel so angry at ourselves, so angry at others. When this doom loop of depression at some level and anger, resentment. We're just worn out. The first huge step of perseverance is to say, "Okay, I'm not going to be defined by this worst day. I'm going to think of one positive step." And we often talk about this, whether it's walk around the block, reading a book, having lunch with a friend, preferably one that can encourage us. That's a huge step.
As we begin to have a glimpse of a life-affirming vision, it's easy for voices in our head, so to speak, to say, "Oh, it'll never work. You're hopeless. Give it up." And we need to quiet those voices of despondency and self-incrimination and say, "Okay, it's just a glimpse. Let me talk a friend or two, a potential colleague. Let me make some trials and experiments. Perseverance will lead you to say, "Okay, I don't have all the answers today, but maybe tomorrow, next month, I will." And as we bring team members on, that will require perseverance too. Some will work out, some won't work out. Even the ones that do work out, there might need to be challenging conversations. Maybe you'll need to move people to different seats on the bus. That's not easy. And ultimately, we might find this vision has grown so big or maybe changed that we might find maybe we're the ones that need to get off the bus. Maybe we need to hand the vision over to somebody else, maybe to our team.
And that also requires character and perseverance because if this vision is not about us and about helping others and fulfilling some higher purpose, we don't want to be the roadblock either. So at these inflection points of proverbially getting out of bed when you feel so bad about yourself or about life, when you have the glimpse of a vision that seems daunting, you're trying to get the right team members on board. Or when you feel like maybe you're at a point in life where, yeah, maybe I'm at an age where I don't want to do it this more, or life circumstances change, or you just feel like it's gotten beyond you, you need to be willing to hand it off. So perseverance is really critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
We've been talking a lot almost exclusively here about taking action in the spirit of perseverance, taking action toward perseverance. But there are some things, and I'm thinking about my own struggle with alcoholism, my perseverance there was to not do something. I had to manifest the lack of grabbing a drink and having it. That was my perseverance. I had to persevere through not doing the thing that I was doing. That's part of it too that we can't overlook. In some crucibles, perseverance can mean not doing something that will go the opposite of the vision that you want to create, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a good point. There are things that can enhance our life and character, and there are things that can drain it. We can hang out with the wrong people, the wrong crowd in the neighborhood, maybe as teenagers or twenty-somethings, and maybe they're doing things that are not helpful, maybe destructive, but we're part of the gang. We want to be accepted. So we end up going down a road where we're doing things that are actually hurting people. Somehow we convince ourselves maybe that's not the case. There may be things that we're watching or other maybe we're just feeling this despondent lethargy, so we're just binging on Netflix or video games. Again, it's not bad in itself, but you don't want to just sit and watch a screen for 23 hours a day or play video games all night or whatever it is. So there's all sorts of coping mechanisms in which we can just check out of life. So we have to have the perseverance to not do the things that are pulling us down.
And everybody has different temptations, different tendencies that can pull them in a direction that's not helpful. As we talked recently on the podcast about gratitude. Well, maybe we have a tendency to indulge the doom loop of negativity and we go down the road of, "This wasn't fair what happened to me. I'm such a terrible person." And you spend hours recycling everything they did to you, everything you did wrong, and this endless doom loop that just pulls you down, which is almost designed to sap you of any perseverance to do anything constructive. That's where you need to just stop it and just say, "I'm not doing that." Maybe have the perseverance to do what we talked about recently with gratitude that will tend to fuel our perseverance ironically. So it's a very good point, Gary. You've got to be willing not just have the perseverance to do things, but to stop doing things that are very destructive to you. Inevitably, they won't be just destructive to you. There'll be destructive to those that we love and care about. That's the way destruction seems to work. Typically, it's not just restricted to ourselves.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, for sure. We have arrived at my favorite part of these actionable truths episodes. I think I want to have Scott develop for the last one some theme music when we get to this part. Here's the theme music where we talk about Patient Zero at Beyond the Crucible, and that is our founder and host, Warwick Fairfax. Examples of this actionable truth in action from Warwick's experience with Crucibles. So the question to you, Warwick, is this, talk about your experience with perseverance, how that's looked in your life as you've walked through crucibles.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's funny, I remember as I was writing a book a number of years ago, Crucible Leadership. There's a lot of things I write about that I'm not good at. I don't like sales and I'm not this upfront kind of person. I'm more retiring, so to speak, or certainly my younger-
Gary Schneeberger:
You and I have that in common, by the way.
Warwick Fairfax:
Maybe not, but that's why you need a team.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's right. Amen. Amen.
Warwick Fairfax:
People with different skills and aptitudes and characteristics.
Gary Schneeberger:
Fellow travelers.
Warwick Fairfax:
Amen. Well said. So I've talked a lot about things I'm not good at, but ironically, perseverance is not one of them. I have very high perseverance. For me, where perseverance maybe wasn't helpful, and you could arguably call a stubbornness, was I'm very idealistic and I was driven to bring the vision of my family's 150-year-old media business back to the vision of the founder, my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax. My father died in early 1987. A few months later, I finished my MBA at Harvard Business School and I ended up launching a 2.25 billion takeover of the family company. So this was both to restore the vision of the company to the founder, and I felt that management were making poor decisions and needed to be changed. So I was idealistic and I had very high perseverance of that mission to launch the takeover, change management, bring the vision back to the ideals of the founder.
But because of my perseverance, when challenges arose, for me, there was no breakpoint. There was no stopping. There was no abandoning the takeover. So a saint of you would've been not to do the takeover. As I've mentioned in other podcasts, earlier in 1987, I had some advisors, some good ones who said, "Warwick, the numbers don't add up. If there's a hostile corporate takeover from a takeover raider," which was one of the things that I was right about, "get together with the family. I mean, just figure out another way." But of course I wanted to take over, change management, bring the vision back to the ideals of the founder. So ignored that advice. I didn't give up. I went right through that obstacle of good advice and listened to the bad advisors that said, "Sure, for a good fee, we are happy to do it for you." Whether it's exceeded or not. In the long term, I think their focus is more on the takeover being concluded.
So I think the lesson for me is not to abandon perseverance, but given that I have very high perseverance, be very careful where I channel that muscle of perseverance, make sure it's the right goal with the, I mean my motives, I think objectively were good, but make sure it's the right goal. And if for some reason a roadblock comes that says maybe you need to change the vision or change the team, don't say, "No changes. We're going to keep going with the same vision, same team." You have to be careful where you channel perseverance because it can lead, if unchecked, to decisions that are unhelpful.
So for me, where perseverance was helpful is in the 1990s after the takeover failed, that decade of the '90s was very difficult. We moved to the US where my wife is from, and perseverance helped me slowly begin to try to move on from that searing crucible of losing my family's 150-year old media business. It wasn't about the money, which has never been a particularly huge motive for me. It was feeling like I let my father down, my great-great-grandfather down, John Fairfax, somehow God down, because I felt like God had this vision, I thought to bring the vision back to the image of the founder, and I kind of let God down with the vision, which as a person of faith, was absolutely devastatingly painful and searing.
So perseverance led me to realize objectively, yes, of course I made mistakes and I get into them in great detail on my book. But objectively speaking, there were divisions in my family going back decades. It was a very challenging situation irrespective of what I did or didn't do, even if I hadn't launched the takeover, those challenges and divisions, they were going to be very difficult to solve.
What's interesting as a person of faith is there's one passage I would say that has been key to fueling my perseverance through the challenges. It has been a bit like rocket fuel for my perseverance. I have high perseverance innately, but this just really helps take it to another level. So it's Philippians 3:7-14. It starts off, "But whatever was to my profit, I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. For His sake. I've lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him. Not having a righteousness of my own that comes through the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."
So that sense that ultimately the things of this world are meaningless. So just reading through the scripture over and over again, having the perseverance to do that fueled my growth and character and my growth and understanding God's purposes, is ultimately the things of this world, even a big media company, is nothing compared to knowing the Lord.
And so then later on in 12 through 14, it says, "Not that I've already obtained all this or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I did not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it, but one thing I do, forgetting what is behind is straining toward what is ahead. I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." So forget what's behind. Forget those past mistakes. Yes, I made them, but endlessly dwelling on them does not help me at all. Strain toward what is the head. Press on toward the goal. So really part of it is, Lord, where do you want me to head?
So one of the things that fuels perseverance is when we link it to our innate values and beliefs. If we feel like, okay, I'm not perfect. I made mistakes, but I need to move forward. The vision is too important. And so when you anchor your vision in your beliefs, it really helps fuel your perseverance. And this is almost like a mantra. I must have gone through it every day in those early years. Forgetting what is behind is straining toward what is ahead. Straining toward what is ahead requires a lot of perseverance. So that scripture fueled my perseverance.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's interesting you talking about leaning into that scripture because what you're talking about there as you're going through what you're going through is the second actionable truth that we talked about in the series, and that's self-reflection. But here's what it's not. It's self-reflection, it's reflecting on. You're putting that stuff away, you're reflecting on it, but you're not ruminating on it. That's not self-recrimination, it's not self-rumination. It's self-reflection. And it's taking the good stuff and moving aside the stuff that isn't going to help you. And that's what you talked about here. And that's one of the things I love about this roadmap is that as you're talking of your experience, we can go back and map it to areas of what we've been through and where we're headed. And what you just described is self-reflection. You went through self-reflection and that self-reflection fueled your perseverance. Is that fair?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's self-reflection in order to learn, but to move forward. To throw away the things that are holding me back, like I'm a terrible person and I destroyed 150-year-old media company, it's all my fault. Well, I made mistakes. It wasn't all my fault objectively, but that's the past. Where do I go now? From my faith perspective, where do I feel God calling me?
So as we get into the 1990s, I found it almost impossible to get a job with the resume that basically said form a media mogul. I could say I work hard and I'm humble, I like to think, but it's like I couldn't even get an interview.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. You're the only person still that I know, Warwick, who had to dumb down his resume to get a job. I know a lot of people who've inflated it, but never dumbed it down except you.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, I definitely did. It didn't really feel that bad at the time because, I don't know, it didn't. But so eventually I got a job at a local aviation services company in Maryland where we live.
But then there was an inflection point and I felt like I was not using all the abilities that God gave me. I was doing well, but I felt like I could do more. And so that required perseverance to say, "I'm going to leave this job. I'm comfortable. I'm doing well. But I'm not doing, I feel like everything that God called me to do and not using all my skills and abilities. So I left. That was a big step, an inflection point. That required perseverance. So that led me to pursue training and certification as an International Coach Federation executive coach.
In 2008, I gave a talk in church to illustrate, a sermon. The pastor of my church in Annapolis, Maryland asked me to give this ten-minute sermon illustration. I'm not this charismatic speaker type. I don't typically like being upfront, but fine. If I can do something that helps, I will. That ten-minute sermon illustration led me to decide to write my book, Crucible Leadership. That required monumental levels of perseverance. Imagine writing a couple hours a day, because I couldn't do more. It was too painful, about some of the worst days of your life, some of the biggest mistakes. I mean, it was unbelievably painful, but I kept moving forward. I'm reminded as we often say, what Margie Warrell, a fellow executive coach in Australia, and she says, "For the sake of what?" Well, for the sake of what was I writing this book? To help people get beyond their worst days and live a life as significance. Paying for a purpose, to use that oft-use phrase. That's, okay, this is painful, but there's a reason for why I'm doing it. That fueled my perseverance.
And just getting the book published, it took years. I tried to get some folks in interested in Australia. And because my name and the family is prominent, I could definitely talk to book publishers, some of the major ones and literary agents. And it was like, "Well, this is an interesting story, but it's quite a lot of years ago now. And we want the sensational version where you dis on family members." And I wasn't willing to do that. I'm happy to talk about my own failures, but I really don't want to get into bad-mouthing other family members. It just was not part of my value set. So that didn't happen. So it took a few more years in which one publisher said, "Really, to publish a book," it was called Crucible Leadership, at the time, some thought maybe it would work in the business leadership space. Well, you need a brand, you need a following, you need an email list and social media following, blogs. And so that led me to found Beyond the Crucible. And that actually led to this wonderful team that we have and the podcast blog and social media. Well, none of this would've happened without perseverance. I want to get this book published.
And so before we got the book published, we actually had launched this podcast and blog and social media, and now it's not just to get the book published in of itself. I love telling stories that people who bounce back from their worst days, and some of the thoughts I have on how you get beyond your worst day to live a life and significance. But at each step of the road, when you go back to those early days in the early 1990s when, I wasn't clinically depressed, but it was not in a good place, it took perseverance to get out of bed and say, "Okay, I'll send out a few more letters to trying to get a job." And none of which happened. And took perseverance and a bit of humility to go to a temp agency that found temp jobs for financial analysts. That was the first step to getting that job at the Aviation Services Company. It was not easy just to keep moving forward.
So certainly in my story, perseverance has led me to be stubborn. But when I've focused it on areas that really I feel like the Lord is leading me to and using my skills and abilities for my own vision, not an inherited vision, it's been incredibly valuable.
Gary Schneeberger:
And again, I have a cheat sheet of some of the stuff that you talked about here, what you just talked about as you were telling your stories, and one thing that sticks out about everything that you just mentioned. Yes, perseverance was a big part of it, but another big part of it, and I think it's important for us to point out this is, if not a cousin of perseverance, it's in the same zip code, same neighborhood, same family, somewhere, a second cousin twice removed, but courage. Everything that you just mentioned, you can't be afraid. You have to summon the courage to take that step forward, right? Even little steps require big courage sometimes. And that's what I think you've described as you've talked about that, about your experience. Help people understand that connection. To manifest perseverance, even in a little step, it does require summoning courage, doesn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, that is well-said. I mean, courage does fuel perseverance. And what I'd say it fuels courage is conviction. I've always been an idealist. What led me to launch the takeover was not about me, it wasn't about ego. I mean, I'm pretty self-aware, not very self-aware. I don't believe that was it. It was more, as I said, to change management and bring the company back to the ideals of the founder.
So now what leads me forward with Beyond The Crucible is a desire to help people. That powerful conviction gives me courage. I mean, for me, I'm basically more on the shy, retiring end of the spectrum, certainly was. For me to speak, which I did a fair amount as part of the book launch, that's not a normal, natural thing for me to do. It's not my happy place. It's not a comfortable zone for me. So why did I do that? Because the message is important. So I got some training and help from somebody that was very good at helping people learn how to speak and craft a good speech. I think I got to the point where I was actually adequate, if not good, certainly judging by the response of the audience.
Gary Schneeberger:
Absolutely. Yep.
Warwick Fairfax:
But that required hard work, and yes, it required courage to say, "Okay, this is not my happy place. Yes, there's a possibility people could mock or laugh or fall asleep, which is probably worse than ridicule. Just people are asleep. Wake me up when this is over." So yeah, courage is really a requirement for perseverance. What fuels courage is conviction, which is why we say all the time that you want to anchor your vision, your life of significance in your deeply held values, your faith. That's what fuels courage, which fuels perseverance that fuels you accomplishing your life for significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, so we've reached the end of the road here. We've covered a lot of ground. You've brought a lot of insight to this part of the roadmap. What's the number one takeaway you'd like listeners and viewers to draw from this episode in particular? This just feels like a especially important episode of the Actionable Truth Series. What's the one truth within this truth that you want people to walk away with?
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, obviously perseverance has to be channeled in the right direction, otherwise it can be seen as stubbornness. So be careful what you devote your life to, and I'm especially sensitive in light of the takeover. But to come back from your worst day and move forward, it does require a high degree of perseverance. To begin to formulate a life-affirming vision that leads to a life of significance will require perseverance. And to bring that vision to reality with the great team will require high perseverance. High perseverance is almost the price of admission. You want to move forward from your worst day because it will not be easy. There are days in which it'll be excruciating. You've got to have perseverance. And it really, yes, perseverance requires a lot of courage, and that's why we really talk a lot about getting out of the pit.
One of the things we find with pretty much every guest we've had is one of the things that's helped propel them forward is they've come up with a vision that's often, I don't want anybody to go through what I went through. I want to help people come out of the pit who've been in the similar pit to me. And that vision, that life-affirming vision is so strong that it almost compels them to have perseverance because it's just such a strong conviction. So I'd say perseverance is often fueled by conviction. But certainly your vision to become reality, you've got to have a high perseverance. And it all starts with what's one step I can move the ball forward today? Forget about tomorrow.
And that's one of the things that I really haven't mentioned that I think is going to be helpful to folks is I have a very good ability to compartmentalize. So I'm not focused on tomorrow or the next day. And I'm a strategic planner by nature, so I do tend to think ahead, but I tend to think of, "Okay, what do I need to do now?" I remember when I was in university at Oxford, I would think, "Okay." This is back in the early '80s, there was sort of worry about the Soviet Union and cruise missiles and nuclear war, and it was in the paper and people were demonstrating. It was a reality. I remember thinking, this is a silly device, but it was effective because all my whole degree depended on those final exams. That's the way they do that at Oxford. I would just say, "Okay, I've got my exam at this time today. I'm not going to worry about anything after this exam. I won't have this useless device that's going to be nuclear war. The world's going to end. I'm not going to worry about the rest of the next three or four exams. All I'm going to do is nothing else matters, just this exam."
You don't have to use my mental device, but perseverance. One of the keys to it is, okay, what's this one step? I'm not going to worry about the other steps. And what if this and that. What's this one step I need to do today? And be very disciplined about blocking everything else out of your brain. What's this one step I'm going to focus on? Once you accomplish that, then the next step and the next step. You've got to be disciplined about just crowding out of your mind, clearing your mind of anything other than that one step, no matter how small. Don't say, "Well ah, but that's pointless. What if there's..." No. Focus on that. So one of the things that fuels perseverance is laser-like focus on that step and ignoring everything else other than that one step. One step leads to another, and that leads to perseverance, if not high perseverance.
Gary Schneeberger:
That was laser-like focus work on landing the plane on our conversation here on the eighth actionable truth that we've been discussing in depth here today.
Folks, each month, just to remind you, we will take a look at a new one and how it is connected to the previous one to build out our Beyond the Crucible roadmap. And next time we'll be discussing, and I'm going to call for it, Warwick. I'm going to call for the drum roll. Scott, give me a drum roll. Next time we will be discussing redemption.
So until the next time we're together, folks, please remember this. We want you to believe these truths that we talk about, but we also want you to act on them because that's what's going to help you along the road map from trial to triumph. We will see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit BeyondTheCrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
The Healing Power of Hidden Medicine: Dr. Thomas McCormack
That’s our guest this week, Dr. Thomas McCormack, has done pioneering research into how adding a spiritual component to psychiatric and medical care can have a powerful impact.
The medical discipline he pioneered — rouachiatry — takes a 12-step approach to helping patients find healing, especially in the wake of crucibles, by leaning into such things as finding peace through surrender, embracing reconciliation and choosing forgiveness.
He covers it all in his book soon-to-be-released book Hidden Medicine: Uncover the Spiritual Forces That are Silently Sabotaging Your Healing … and Learn How to Defeat Them.
To learn more about Dr. McCormack, visit www.hidden-medicine.com
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Over the 12 weeks, what we found was that initially the cohort had a Beck Depression Inventory score of, I believe it was about 32, which is in the severe range. By the end of the study, the mean Beck Depression score had dropped to 14, which is in the mild region.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Dr. Thomas McCormack, describing his research into how adding a spiritual component to psychiatric care can have a powerful impact the medical discipline he pioneered. Ruachiatry takes a 12-step approach to helping patients find healing, especially in the wake of crucibles, by leaning into such things as finding peace through surrender, embracing reconciliation, and choosing forgiveness.
Warwick Fairfax:
Tom, great to have you here. Tom is Dr. McCormack. He is a psychiatrist educator, thought leader and integrates spirituality and medicine. He graduated with honors from Wake Forest University, got his medical degree from Emory. Fellowships at Duke. He has a thriving multidisciplinary practice in Athens, Georgia, and he specializes in complex and treatment-assistant psychiatric cases. Dr. McCormack, Tom is an expert psychiatrist and has written a book, Hidden Medicine that really talks about the integration of spiritual with the physical and the biological, and talks about the 12 steps of Ruachiatry. Did I get that close to right?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, that's right War.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay. So before we get into that, which I found fascinating because it really offers help to folks spiritually really holistic medicine I guess you could say. So tell us a bit about the backstory of what a young Tom McCormack was like growing up and how you got interested in medicine. Where was that journey because not everybody grows up saying, "I want to be a psychiatrist one day." Probably didn't think that when, I guess you were six or seven, I'm guessing. So what was life like for young Tom and what led you to your life's calling?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. Well first thank you guys for having me, Warwick and Gary. And look forward to talking to you guys today. Yeah. Starting from the start, when I was born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia and growing up from a really young age, I knew I wanted to be a physician. Honestly, it was probably like three or four years old. I remember watching the old 1970s television show called Emergency, and I just really-
Warwick Fairfax:
Yes.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
You remember that? All right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh yeah.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Same generation. Good.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Well anyway, the role of the physician, the doctor really resonated with me. I just thought it was neat. And so I started saying ... My parents tell me now that I wanted to be a doctor from a really, really young age. I went to a great college preparatory school from seventh grade onward and was blessed to have a wonderful education. And the further I got in my education, I began to see science as the way to truth. And as a person of science, I overemphasized that and really abrogated anything spiritual to the backseat. I wasn't sure that existed and science seemed to explain the natural world and what occurred, and so I went with that.
So growing up really wasn't a person of faith to any large degree, and that got worse in college as it often does. I really looking back was very selfish young man and was all about me, myself, and I. I'm embarrassed to say that, but it's the truth. And I studied very hard in medical school initially ... I'm sorry, in undergraduate. My first semester, just a month or so into school, I got a very severe case of mononucleosis. And it was so severe I thought initially it was just pharyngitis strep throat or something like that. And so I really blew it off. I thought, oh, this will get better in a few days and just gargle and that sort of thing. But by the time I actually sought medical help, it was my roommate and my suitemates who said, "You've got to go down to student health." I couldn't move at that point, Warwick. I was so fatigued. My throat hurt so badly I could not swallow. I'd lost a lot of weight in a really short period of time and they knew something was wrong. And so they took me to student health. I had an enlarged liver, enlarged spleen. I just let this go and they diagnosed me with mononucleosis.
I was actually in the hospital just for supportive care for almost two weeks and missed a lot of class. And obviously I was taking a pre-med track, and so I was taking biology and chemistry among other things. And I got way behind and met with my advisor after I was discharged and he said, "Tom, I really think you ought to withdraw from some classes. Probably the harder ones, like the science classes." And where I went to school was at that time pretty small college and they didn't have where you could take chemistry one or biology one second semester, you had to take it first semester. And so if I dropped out, I couldn't take the chemistry two. Anyway, I couldn't take it second semester, so I'd be a year behind on the pre-med track. And I just thought, that's unacceptable. I don't want to waste a year. So I foolishly did not take that advice and kept going forward and ended up getting two Cs and both in biology and chemistry, the rest for A's and Bs.
It was very humbling. I had never gotten a C in my life, let alone in a class, but I think on a paper test, I don't think I'd ever gotten Cs. I've done very well. And I met with my pre-med advisor and he said, "Tom, you're obviously not going to medical school, so you might want to think about another major." And indignant, I said, "No, sir. Well, I am going to medical school." I was respectful, but I said, "Eat my dust and I'm going to get a new advisor, somebody who's more encouraging." Always said respectfully. Anyway, so I did. And the rest of my time at Wake Forest, I studied really hard and almost had a 4.0 the rest of the time. And so it did help bring my grade point average up. So by the time it was time to apply to medical schools, the same advisor I met with, because he was in charge of the pre-med committee, he met with me and said, "Oh, well, we highly recommend you to medical school." I didn't say I told you so. He might not have even remembered what he told me three and a half years earlier. So he said, "Where do you want to go?" And I said, "My state medical school." He said, "You should have no problem getting in there with your grades and your activities and your MCAT scores." And I thought, "Great. That's where I want to go."
After applying, I got a interview very early on, which was a good sign. It's a rolling admission. And the interviews went great at my state medical college and I truly expected to get an acceptance letter any day now. And so every day from October my senior year in college on through my graduation, I checked the mailbox and there was nothing there. It got humbling, but then scary and I was puzzled like, "Why don't they let me know?" And they didn't put me on the wait list, which usually they'll do if they think, "Ah, he's okay, but we're not sure. Maybe something will open up." But they just didn't let me know. And graduation came around and I still hadn't heard. So I went home that summer in late May of '92 and still checked the mailbox every day, really hoping to get a letter, but my confidence was waning.
And then one muggy day in June, I grabbed my trusty dog, Murph, and we went down to the mailbox and I found a very thin letter, which I knew spelled bad news. Opened it on the spot and there was a few line rejection and I was just crestfallen. Everything I'd worked for one, be a physician since a very young age and worked really hard to overcome some early academic setbacks have been taken from me, and I was led to believe I was a really good candidate. And on paper, I was. I was just puzzled. I started tearing and I thought, geez, what do I do? I didn't want to go back to my home. I knew my parents were there and they'd start asking questions and scrambling around, and I just didn't feel like facing that. I felt like I needed to process it. So I had my dog and I thought, well, I'm just going to go for a walk and try to clear my head. But my head was swirling. I was so upset and tearful.
I hadn't made it very far. Made it to the house next door, and I stopped in the middle of the road and I'm embarrassed to say this is how I addressed the almighty. But I stopped and said something along these lines, God, I'm not really even sure you exist and if you do, why in the world would you let this happen to one of your children? This isn't fair. I worked hard for this. And I said, "I'll tell you what, if you exist, you need to show me right now. I'm not asking you to get me into medical school, but I've worked hard for this and I'm lost, and you need to show me what path you want me to take. And if you do that and show your reality, I'll follow you the rest of my life." And not expecting any answer whatsoever, and to my shock, immediately I felt an otherworldly presence. I don't know how else to describe it. Words don't do it justice. It felt as though this piece instantaneously embraced me. I came to realize in retrospect that whoever listened to me ... I prayed a silent prayer. Heard me, and then responded, and I wasn't expecting that, and I felt a duty to figure out who or what that was.
So that started my journey of spiritual exploration. Long story short, I made it back to my house. I went in, my parents were very upset and they started scrambling immediately. Well, let's pull some strings. They knew some people. And I didn't really care. I just thought it's going to be okay. And my dad said I remember, "Why are you so calm?" Because they were not. And I didn't want to explain to them. I thought they might think I was crazy or lost my mind. So I just said, "Yeah, I think it's going to be okay." And they looked at me puzzled. So they got on the horn behind the scenes. Turned out my mom knew the dean from another medical school in Georgia that I hadn't applied to. It was a newer medical school. It was kind of geared to rural medicine, which wasn't really my interest. And she called him and he surprisingly said, "Well, I'd be happy to interview Tom. I can't guarantee he'll get in." But it seemed like there was hope because I would be a very good candidate for their program. And I thought, well, maybe they'll open the spot for me. But still weren't really sure this was the right way. It didn't feel right.
So the next week when I was heading down south for that interview, got dressed up in my Sunday best, and I lingered on the couch and my mom came in and said, "Tommy, you've got to go. You're going to be late. I set all this up." I said, "Yes, ma'am." So I walked to the back door and I kissed my mom and dad.
And y'all remember back in the days when phones were on the wall. Anyways, our laundry room. And the phone on the wall rang literally as I was touching the doorknob to leave. And I remember my mom answered it and said, really puzzled, was like, "Yes, yes." And so I stopped like, "What's going on with her?" And she said, "Yeah, he's right here." And she put her hand over the phone and thrust it in my direction and said, "It's for you." And I was like, "Who is it?" And she goes, "It's for you." And thrust it in my face. And I answered the phone. And on the other end, I had been waitlisted at a private medical school in my state, and it turned out the dean of admissions was calling me and said, "Tom, a spot has opened up. Would you be willing to accept this spot and join our class of 1996? Classes start next week so there's not much time." And I said, "Yes, sir," and I hung up the phone. They're like, "What happened?" I told them and it was just jubilation ensued. And that really started me on this spiritual journey that wow, something cared, listened to me. And even though I was disrespectful and he answered my prayer and gave me the desires of my heart, not because it was my desire, but because looking back it was his will and I finally surrendered and submitted.
Warwick Fairfax:
You're in medical school. So tell me what led you to psychiatry? Because not everybody wants to do that. Some one of these surgeons. There's a lot of different specialties. Neurology. A lot of things you could go into. But why psychiatry?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
So I saw a flyer in my fourth year in our medical school, and it said, "The law school is looking for medical students to be a mock expert witness in a medical malpractice case for our moot court, and we'll pay you, and it's on a Saturday morning." And I was like, "That sounds fun and I could make a little money." So anyway, I signed up for that and I went to court. They were very serious. They acted like it was a real case. And because this was the law students, they got a grade for this. It was important to them. I was just there getting paid. But they gave me a transcript of, okay, your doctor so-and-so and it was a malpractice case that had to do with surgery. I supposedly tied the suture wrong, and then they were also suing the company that made the suture.
Anyway, so I got up there on the stand as the expert witness and really enjoyed it. And I think did a pretty good job because afterwards the judge caught me on the way to the parking lot and said, "Hey, young man." I said, "Yes sir, your honor." And he said, "What's your name?" Introduced ourselves. And he said, "You were really good up there." I said, "Well, thank you, your honor. I appreciate that." He goes, "Have you ever thought about doing that for a career?" And I was like, "Doing what?" He said, "Being an expert witness." I said, "No." And he said, "Well, you might want to consider it." He said, "I think you're really good at it. And that's needed in law for us to have experts to give judges guidance on these things." And I thought, "Oh, okay." And so I went home and I looked it up. I was like, "What is he talking about?" And I found forensic psychiatry. And I was like, "I would love that. That sounds great." So my goal then, I was like, "I think I want to be a forensic psychiatrist."
In order to do that, you have to do at least a four-year residency in psychiatry. And again, I didn't really know what that was. I had a psychiatry rotation, but I thought, "Well, gee, if I'm going to go into this, I better do another rotation." So I did one with a private practice, which was more my speed, and I loved it to my surprise. And that was the goal. I was like, "I'm going to be a forensic psychiatrist." And my wife supported me, and my family was very puzzled. My dad was a dentist, so he was used to doing things and fixing things and then boom, we're done. See you next year. And he just said, "You're doing what?" He goes, "We paid for four years of medical school for you to do that?" He just didn't understand it. He later came to appreciate it. He never did understand it because he doesn't have that bent at all. But at any rate, that's what I chose. And it was the road less traveled and never looked back. I love it. I've been blessed to get a great education and have wonderful people around me, and it's been fantastic. Good fit for me.
Warwick Fairfax:
So before we get into the 12 steps of Ruachiatry, which I found fascinating, talk a bit about the spiritual and the physical, and the biological, because it seems like ... And obviously you talk about this a lot in the book, doctors are trained medically that they focus on that and not always thinking about holistically. It's like, I'm not trying to make fun of doctors, but if your cholesterol is high, you need to take a statin. Okay. That could be helpful in some cases. But what about diet and exercise? Isn't preventative helpful? Again, some might actually say, "Hey, before I give you a statin," but some might not. Depends on the doctor and their background, their training, their medical philosophy. But I think what you're advocating is more for holistic, not just physical. And again, obviously you're a doc, not against medicine. But talk about how holistic is maybe a better approach, including the spiritual. So talk about your philosophy of medicine, which not every doctor may share necessarily. What's your philosophy of, I guess, healing rather than curing or preventative medicine? Just talk philosophically about what your approach is.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. Like I said, early in my training, I had become a spiritual person based on my own experience. And simultaneously as I was going through my own spiritual journey, had the privilege of obviously starting to see patients. And what I've found was that even when they were really sick or in despair, there was an undeniable tendency for those with a religious foundation to have better coping but also better health outcomes in general. And so it puzzled made that, why aren't we talking about spirituality at all in our medical curriculum, both in medical school and then I found later in residency as well. When I was in residency, this puzzled me and I was at Duke and there was attending named Harold Koenig at Duke who is an expert in spirituality and medicine. And I started reading his stuff and found that there are over 3000 studies showing the benefits of having a religious faith background. And again, it just puzzled me.
We are trained in medical school on what's called the biopsychosocial paradigm, and that was introduced by a fellow named George Engel in 1977. And so that is standard in medical curricula in the United States. But even though medicine had a spiritual beginning ... If you look back centuries, even millennia, the people who were doing most of the medical treatments ... Back then, of course they were herbs, not for pharmaceutical company and whatnot. But they were the shaman or the medical man or the priest and that sort of thing. And the fact that that had been totally ignored in modern medicine was puzzling to me. So finding this information that it can be helpful and seeing that in my own practice, I really started to think, well, we need to integrate this into medical care. And something in the '90 when I was training was called the biopsychosocial spiritual approach. So they tried to add the spirituality component to it and it never really caught on to a large degree Warwick. And again, the further I got, I thought this is really helpful. I don't know why that could be.
When I went through my own both physical and spiritual battles as I aged, I felt like there needed to be a more systematized approach to this for patients because somewhat selfishly to some degree, I'd had a lot of problems back in 2019. My dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease and watching the greatest guy become a shell of himself and being robbed of his humanity and watching my poor mom having to take care of him, and then COVID hit and we were trying to keep him out of a nursing facility, but it became increasingly hard to keep him at home. I just thought he'll die if he goes there. He'll never get out with COVID and who knows how long that's going to last.
But also with COVID, there were challenges. I had some physical illnesses turning 50 for the first time in my life that were pretty serious and even had to take some time off of work. In addition to time away from practice from COVID was trying to help mom with dad to some degree. And all this along with just ... I had three teenage kids running a private practice that I owned and trying to be there for my wife as well was overwhelming. And so I decided to try to systematize it honestly initially for my benefit. And I found it to be wildly beneficial and always wanting to help patients. As I went along, I thought maybe this could be turned into some kind of paradigm that we could help patients. In 2022, I also suffered some trauma in my church that I'd attended for over 20 years, and there was really intense spiritual warfare. That led me ... And my father had passed recently. Led me to start writing.
I actually started writing with my pastor. He had a PhD and had written books before and such, and I had written anything since college and I thought, I don't know what I'm doing and I don't know if anybody will read this or publisher probably wouldn't be interested. And he and I started writing together and it was not far into the process where Dr. Mills said to me, he said, "Tom, I think this is your book." And I was scared. I said, "No David, I really need you. I need you to help me with this." And he said, "No." He said, "I think you have a message to say here and I think it's for you." And he said, "Look, I'm in the business and people may not hear it from me that they expect me to say these things, but coming from you, it might be seen differently." And again, I didn't like what he said, but with trepidation, I went out on my own and over the next couple of years wrote the book at night and on weekends and things of that nature.
And finally got it done in 2024 and approached a friend of mine who's a ghostwriter, and he said, "Well, let me look at the manuscript." I said, "Okay." And he looked at it and he said, "Tom, I think you've got something here." He said, "I really think this could be a special book." And I was like, "Really? Wasn't expecting that. I was expecting to self-publish it and just be Vanity Press or something." And he said, "Let me edit it and put some polish on it and then I'm going to introduce you to my publisher." And I said, "Wow. Okay." And so he did that, and this was late 2024 and Greenleaf Publishing accepted later in the year and early 2025, we started the process of having them help me edit it a lot on coming up with cover and all the things that I'm sure you're aware of having written a book go into. And it's due October 28th and really excited about it. I hope it helps a lot of people.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, I want to jump in here just for a second because I think we're at a pivot point in the conversation, and I want to make this point because you've described Tom as we've been going through your story, your first crucible situation. You didn't get into law school and you used this phrase when you were talking about who you were at that time. You said that you were all about me, myself, and I. That was your words about where you were at then. You've then just described another round of crucibles with some health challenges for you, your father passing away, some problems in your church. And it seems like in those situations your focus was not totally on yourself. For people who are listening to this and their crucibles are going to be different in detail, but the emotions will be the same, what's the difference? Why did the second way that you dealt with it not being me, myself and I, how did that help you get through those crucibles that you faced?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. That's a great question. Well, as a person of faith, I came to believe the word of God that says that the highest two commandments are love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength, mind and also love your neighbor as yourself. And going into medicine being really clearly in retrospect, a calling from a young age, I just grew to love people and started seeing myself as less important. That I was a vessel for God to use to help people. And that was my mission in life. I came to see that very differently. And because of that deep desire to help people and show them the way I also became convicted that I can't show people the way if I don't have it myself. It's the same with physical health.
And what I mean by that is in medical school, there's a very famous cardiologist who literally wrote the book Cardiology, and he would lecture to us and then I would see him between lectures go outside and chain-smoke. And I just thought, wow, this is like a world-famous cardiologist who would tell everybody not to smoke and he's not doing it. I wasn't being judgment. I just thought that's a little hypocritical. As I practice medicine, I don't want to do that. I don't want to tell people. Or you said, "Hey, diet, exercise," and then have me be out of shape and that sort of thing. So same thing happened here. It had been helpful for me and I wanted to get the message out and see if I could help other people.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about Ruachiatry. Before we get into the 12 steps. At a high level Ruachiatry what's the philosophical underpinnings? What does it mean?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, ruach in Hebrew means spirit, and iatry obviously comes from a Greek word iatrea which means treatment of. And so this is a spiritual treatment that I came up with. I coined that term for better or worse, but I think I wanted to give it one term that maybe would be memorable to incorporate the spiritual component that's been neglected in medicine. So yeah, that's it in a nutshell.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it's interesting. You did a study with Ruachiatry, with people I think that had depression, and you have a bunch of things like the Beck Depression inventory that I guess I'm sure psychiatrists, but all know what that means. The rest of us probably don't. Talk about how in that study using these principles actually had very significant health benefits. Talk about that because must've been affirming to you.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
So in seeing it being helpful in my own life, I thought, well, if I'm going to have a systematic approach to help patients, I want some empirical evidence that it is in fact helpful, not just my own experience. And that's how the study came to be. It was a 12-week study where we had people who were treatment resistant, which we defined as having three or more standard of care antidepressant treatments to deal with their depression and also psychotherapy. And during the trial before people signed up, we told them, Hey, during this 12 weeks you cannot change your medication or your therapy scheduled if you're currently in psychotherapy. And we had a number of people signed up. Now some of them dropped out because they were so severe that they needed changes in their treatment, but most of the people stayed. And what we found at the end of the 12 weeks, we met with them weekly and went over the 12 steps each week or met them at their own pace. Some people, if they had a spiritual underpinning got through steps one and two pretty quickly, other people might need to spend more time there and such.
But anyway, over the 12 weeks, what we found was that initially the cohort had a Beck Depression Inventory score of ... I believe it was about 32, which is in the severe range. By the end of the study, the mean Beck Depression score had dropped to 14, which is in the mild region. So over a 50% drop and also just improvement in their functionality.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about these steps. So steps one through three, acceptance, searching, and submission. Just give us a bit of an overview of the first three steps of Ruachiatry.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. The first step you have to accept your powerlessness over your illness. And this might seem self-evident, but it is actually harder in practice because people have a lot of psychological mechanisms to deal with illness. And the first step of any kind of grieving for the loss of a loved one or just loss of functioning and health is denial. And it's very common, especially early on. The sooner we physicians can move our patients toward acceptance, the better, the quicker they are on the road to help. And so that's super important.
And then the second part of step one is commitment. Once you've accepted, "Hey, I'm powerless over this and I need help of a physician or therapist or a team," then saying, "I am committed to fighting this. I'm going to take the first steps to dig my heels in and say, 'This is hard. I don't want to do this. I'm a peaceful person. I don't want to fight, but I'm in a fight and I've got to be committed to that fight.'" Step two is searching, like I mentioned earlier. And this is where I encourage people to embark on a journey to fulfill their personal responsibility, to decide for themselves if there is a higher power, which one? Who is it? And because this acknowledgement can help people have hope and better cope with illness. And so to me that's foundational.
Gary Schneeberger:
Step two is interesting to me because I have an AA background. I went through AA in the early '90s. And the idea of a higher power of my own understanding worked for a while because I did not grow up Christian, not even nominally. But eventually as I was walking through my recovery, I started to think, God of my own understanding, isn't my own understanding what got me in this position to begin with? How is that going to help me necessarily? It wasn't enough for me. Now you will not find a greater advocate for AA. But that didn't work for me. And my story, people have heard it on the podcast because Warwick interviewed me for our 50th episode. It was a little stunt on our host interviews, cohost. But I do believe at the end of the day, God healed me of that. And I don't refer to myself as a recovering alcoholic. I believe I leaned into that and God just plucked it out of me. But that part of what you said about who is that God of your understanding, I think that's an important part for people because it's our understanding that for me, it got me in trouble. That's what made me an alcoholic and I couldn't get away from it. And I think that's probably true through your experience over a lot of different kind of illnesses, right?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
It is. And that's great insight. Actually the 12 steps were born out of that because that's already in our lexicon. It's already in medical parlance from AA, which started in the 1930s. And because of that, I started looking into AA. We had to do substance abuse stuff during residency, but it's not really my specialty. But in looking at the research and is there a branch of medicine that talks about spirituality at all? The only branch is addictionology and AA is the foundation of that. And that's where I came up with the idea of 12 steps. I actually contacted the folks from National AA in New York, and they were very encouraging and said I could use it as a template, but I just had to put a disclaimer that I'm not affiliated with AA at all and that sort of thing, which I put in the book of course.
But yeah. A study out of Stanford not too long ago, I think it was 2021, had 10,500 and something subjects. And their conclusion was that AA is a free resource that doesn't take professionals or physicians and that it works. And it works fantastic for the malady of alcoholism if people are active in the program. And just saying, "Wow. If that could be applied to general medicine and psychiatry as well, what would that mean?" If we could have something that worked that was free ... We're always talking about, oh, healthcare costs and stuff, what would that mean if a part of our sickness is due to spiritual issues? And so that's how I came up with the 12 step approach.
Warwick Fairfax:
So after searching before we move to step four, you've got submission. Submission is not a very popular word in our culture, but you talk about once we identify the spiritual power greater than ourselves, we decide to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. Submitting ourselves to a higher power to God. So talk before we get to the next one after that, why is submission important? Because it feels like counter cultural. How could submission help me?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
It is probably same with Australians as it is with American. Yeah, submission is a dirty word, right? It has a connotation of groveling at the feet of somebody who's conquered you. So you've lost and you're having to against your will do something you don't want to do. But in spirituality, it has a different connotation. If you've identified in step two, a higher power that hopefully is benevolent and powerful enough to help you with your illness, submission should be a reasonable idea. Why wouldn't I submit to somebody who loves me and is powerful? We submit to our parents. We a lot of times, submit to the state for better or worse. But they still are sinful entities and they're not all powerful. So if there is something that's all powerful and willing to help, why the heck wouldn't you consider submitting? But yeah. Submission is hard even for people of faith. We have our own strong self-will, we also have a system in place that the Bible says is run by the devil. The Bible says our three enemies of the world system, which he runs, the flesh, which is our own fallen physical nature with its appetites that we want gratified. And then the devil himself and his spiritual cohorts that are out to get us. So that's where submission comes from and it's super important.
I find that a lot of people who are believers tell me, "Hey, Dr. Mac, these first three, I got those." And I say, "Wait a second. Let's go through them and just make sure." Because I find even with believers, they obviously have submitted to some degree, but most of us have an area of our life that we say, "You know God, you can have 95%, but I'm going to hold this little piece for myself." Whether we're willing to admit that or not. Nobody is completely submitted usually and just identifying, "Hey, are there any areas you haven't turned over to God? And let's explore the reason for that." But the more you get to know God and know who he is, it just makes sense. Wow, why wouldn't I turn everything over to him?
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's talk about the next step you've got. Step four is trauma and lies. You've got step five, choosing forgiveness, which we talk about a lot. Traumas we inflicted upon others. I have to say, the worksheets you have in here were really impressive. You've got a worksheet for inventory of traumas that you've suffered, and the questions here are so specific and clear. Who hurt you? What did they do? Was it intentional? Unintentional? Lies, I believe a result of my hurt, truth according to my higher power, degree of current resentment, ask God for their strengths to forgive. And then flip it the other way, when we've inflicted harm on others, the worksheet says, whom did you hurt? What did you do? Was it intentional or unintentional? What could you have done instead? What was the nature of your character defect involved? Had you forgiven yourself admitted to God, another person, the nature of your answers? Powerful questions. Talk about these. Trauma and lies, choosing forgiveness and then traumas be inflicted upon others. Let's talk about those steps.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Sure. So steps four through nine, I call radical renovation. You're cleaning out the house, so to speak, and this is really hard work, and it takes that commitment we talked about in step one. And because of that, a lot of times for people who've had a harder time, it might involve a competent psychotherapist to help them work through this or maybe a Ruachiatry coach somebody who's trained in the principles of Ruachiatry. But step four is super important, and I tell people, take your time, especially on step four and five. It's so foundational and fundamental because we are according to the Bible, born with a fallen nature. And people say, "Our baby's sinful?" Well, if you ever had a two-year-old, you can see how selfish they are and throw tantrums. Yes, from the womb we are innately sinful. I don't mean we sin all the time, but we have that nature. And because of that, it's easier for our spiritual foes to blind us. And those who are fortunate enough to either grow up with a faith background from their family or who come to their senses because either God plucks them out or somebody tells them about it, they're now spiritually awakened and they can see things differently. But everybody has trauma to varying degrees.
And what I talk about in the book is trauma with a big T, a capital T, and then traumas with a little T. Now traumas with a big T, as far as your physical health, it could be having some terrible injury, compound bone fracture or things of that nature, cancer and things of that nature as well. And then other traumas could be things that we would all say, "Oh gosh, yeah." War, rape, watching somebody die horrifically. These sorts of things are big things that most of us don't have to go through, but some people unfortunately have. But we all have little T traumas, and these are things that we accumulate during our life. Hurt people, hurt people and we're all hurt people. And so these accumulate, and what I've found is that a lot of little T traumas can add up to big T trauma. And so we all need to look back and say, "Hey, before I was a person of faith, these things have accumulated and I need to go back, unlock the cellar door and see what's down there and deal with it, not just bury it."
And so this is a hard step, firstly, admitting and looking in the mirror and saying, what are the traumas? But who hurt me, whether it's a person or an institution. And I tell people, go back to childhood, write down everything. And so this list can be super long, which is great. It should be because you have traumas. And trauma is in the eye of the beholder. And what we found with resilience research is that what I see as traumatic, you fellas might look at it and be like, "Well, that's a piece of cake." Because we all have different coping mechanisms and see things differently. But it doesn't matter. If I experienced it as traumatic, I have the same physiologic response, I have the same psychological response and so it's traumatic to me. So going through in every individual listing these things is super important and who did it? And then identifying was it intentional or not?
What I've found is that traumas that are either born of happenstance, acts of God or war things you couldn't control or just accidental, they weren't purposeful ... Somebody hurt you, but they didn't mean to. It wasn't malicious, but they still hurt you. Those are easier to forgive even if the person doesn't come to you and ask for forgiveness. It's a lot harder when we look and say, "Gee, that was intentionally inflicted and they were trying to hurt me and that sort of thing." So that's an important aspect.
Step five goes on to another foundational truth. And that is so important. If you don't forgive completely and fully, you are carrying around what the Bible calls a root of bitterness. So this understandable anger based on you've been hurt. It can grow over time. And what I tell people is that it grows into resentment. Meaning again, sentiment comes from sentire, which is Latin that means feeling it. And so you're choosing to feel the same emotion you felt when you're hurt again and again. And it's just simply madness. And so just recognizing that this is a prison of your own choosing. And when you choose forgiveness, you choose to set two captives free. You set the person free who did this to you, but you set yourself free as well. And forgiveness is hard, especially if the person does not apologize and was malicious about it. But it's so important and it's really necessary. And that can take some time, as I mentioned.
And then looking at our own selves in the mirror. Hey, hurt people, hurt people. I've hurt people. It's not just all about me. What have I done and what potential character defects, looking at what's gone on in my own journey and identifying and look in the mirror and saying, "These are things I need to correct in order for me to be whole." And then seven is making amends where you can .this isn't always advisable nor possible to do, but when it is, it's important to reach out to people whom you've hurt and offer genuine remorse and try to make it right if you can.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's fascinating that you talk about this because Beyond the Crucible, we talk about forgiveness a lot. And we say, as obviously, I'm sure you would believe that forgiveness doesn't mean condoning what was done to you. It doesn't mean what was done to you was right, acceptable, moral. But you do it because obviously as people of faith, because we've been forgiven, those who've been forgiven much should forgive. So we often say that choosing not to forgive is like drinking poison. It just corrodes your soul. And the other thing with forgiveness is I often tell people and our church and all, it is rare that somebody will say, "I apologize," in my opinion. It can happen but most of the times they'll say, "Well, I'm sorry if that hurt you." Sorry if is never ... I tell all my kids, sorry if is not an apology. That just does not cut it.
So you've got to realize when bad things are done to you, you will rarely get the satisfaction because of the world we live in. It just won't happen most of the time. So we've make amends in the last few steps we've got from fear to faith, vigilant and sober. And then I think you've got drawing closer to God seeking spiritual wisdom. So really from eight instead of a turning point. So talk about that turning point from theater, faith and vigilant and sober drawing closer to God. Talk about how that helps your spiritual recovery if you will.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Sure. Four, five and six deal with anger, which sometimes it's like you said, if you're heard, it is justified. And so step eight deals with the other emotion that I find to be very problematic and where people get stuck and that's fear, which is very common in today's world, the state of flux that our world is in. The political discord. Obviously the pandemic that happened. There's a lot of fear and some of it's certainly understandable, but I've seen it grow in my practice with folks presenting with anxiety is super common. I think there's a spiritual way to combat it in addition to certainly some people need therapy and medicine also, and I'm not against that. To get them fully there, I think going from fear to faith is a big leap and trying to help people understand how to do that. And again, that's a process, right? Fear didn't happen overnight. A lot of times it's grown over time and additional things have happened that make one more fearful. And so that's the step there.
As far as vigilant and sober, sobriety doesn't always necessarily just mean from alcohol or drugs, although think it's best to be sober from those as well. We are all influenced. We say, "Oh, so-and-so got a DUI. They were under the influence of alcohol, right? Oh, that's bad." We can be under the influence of negative spiritual enemies as well and just unwittingly not know about it. So being sober in that regard, and like you alluded to earlier, think on things that are good and positive. We found out through research lately that thoughts are things. They actually have mass and they're not a separate thing. They're part of our soul, our mind, will and emotion. And so they're important. What you think determines your destiny to a large degree. And so reframing things from fear to faith and having that foundation is super important. And then being vigilant. Once you've cleaned out from steps four through nine, now you got to keep it clean. And so that's where the vigilance of the guard on the wall comes into play.
10 through 12 are more ... I was drawing closer to God. And James says in the Bible that draw close to God and he will draw close to you. And I found that to be true in my own spiritual walk. And so Step 10 talks about seeking spiritual wisdom. There is worldly wisdom, and it is not bad. I'm not against philosophy. But the issue with human philosophies, even from the most brilliant people, Plato, Socrates, these folks and others, is that the philosophy from spirituality is fixed. And it's this rock that doesn't change over the millennia. Whereas human philosophy, there are lots of different schools of thoughts and it can change with time just like science and new discoveries can. And so it's a shifting sand, so to speak. And so you shouldn't rely on it for your spiritual wellbeing, but certainly there's wisdom to be had from secular searches of philosophy.
But scripture and then lastly, prayer and meditation. And I go into depth about these things that whatever you decide is your higher power, study the orthodox teachings of your faith and get their spiritual books that they feel are inspired and principles are worth living by. And then prayer. I know for a fact that some spiritual being heard me, I believe it's God and Jesus, but at any rate, prayer works. There are lots of studies on that too that aren't talked about in medical school or even in general life, but prayer does work. And adding with that, a meditation upon scripture, meditation on truths, the health benefits of meditation are well-known. But the goal of meditation, unlike transcendental meditation for example, isn't to empty your mind, it's to fill your mind with truth and have that be the focus of your thoughts.
Warwick Fairfax:
There might be somebody here who maybe today is their worst day, and it's like, "I feel spiritually empty, bankrupt. There is no hope. I'm not sure anybody cares about me. There's no higher power that cares." They might be in a very dark place. What would a word of hope be for somebody that maybe today is their worst day and they just feel spiritually bankrupt? They might hate themselves, hate other people hate the world. They might be in a very dark spiritual in soul place. What would a word of hope be for that person?
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah. I would say to that person, you are so important. You have no idea the importance that you carry. You are made in the image of God. As difficult as that is to fathom, it's the truth in my opinion. And if you haven't already, I would encourage you to explore, especially the God who claims to be the creator of you and everything. Who claims to be all-powerful and who claims to be omniscient so he can hear your prayers. He knows everything at all times and he's omnipresent. He's not bound by location. So whether you're in the middle of the desert or in church, he hears your prayers just the same. And he also claims to be Jehovah Rapha, which means God the healer. He claims to be the great physician. And if you reach out to him and really earnestly search, you'll find the truth. There is hope. But it doesn't come in things that the world offers. Their passing away as the Bible says. And the only thing that won't pass away is our souls. And you're going to spend eternity somewhere and why not go ahead and surrender your own will to God so that you can be one of those people who is assured that you're going to spend forever with a loving God.
And also remind people you will eventually be healed. If you're a believer. People think, oh, you die and you can either go to heaven or hell, sort of true. But the truth of matter is God made a perfect world. He said everything was good and it got wrecked by us and the influences that influenced us negatively. But the good news is he promises he's coming back and he's going to restore everything to its perfect state. In fact, at some point, he is going to make a new heaven and a new earth because this one's a mess and he's going to remake us. Our bodies will die, but he's going to give us new bodies that will be eternal and that will be without sin, sickness, or death. So if you're a believer, you have that assurance, you will get out of your trouble at some point. And the Bible says even that our troubles in light of eternity are light and momentary. And they may not feel light. They may not feel light. You may say, "Dr. McCormack, you don't know what I'm going through." I do. I sit with people in pain every day, and I've been through my own. There is hope and there's a way out. So I'd encourage you to examine what you believe about a higher power.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word on the subject has been spoken, and our guest, Tom McCormack, also known as Dr. Thomas McCormack, has just spoken about the substance of what we're talking about, but I've still got a little housekeeping left to do, and that is Tom, to have you let our listeners and viewers know how can they find out more about your book Hidden Medicine and more about you on the internet.
Dr. Thomas McCormack:
Yeah, thanks Gary. I have a website called www.hidden-medicine.com. Usually you could find me if you type in Hidden Medicine or Dr. Thomas McCormack. But also the book Hidden Medicine is available now on Amazon for pre-sale. It will be in bookstores everywhere on October 28 so coming up real shortly. And it's my sincere desire that it helps a lot of people give some clarity to some of these things that a lot of people find confusing. Really tried to write it for lay people. And my second hope is that the medical community will embrace it and realize that yeah, there are things beyond medicine and surgery and therapies that we're missing. We've left untapped and we need to tap into that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks. Now, the plane is indeed fully on the ground. Time to gather your peanut bags and head off the plane. Warwick, we just got done speaking with Tom McCormack, which felt weird to me because he's Dr. Thomas McCormack. So I always felt strange every time I called him Tom. I don't know why. It's the old soul in me. I can't refer to a doctor except by doctor, but we did it. He had some very interesting things to talk about from his own experience, his crucible, not getting into medical school, some other ones that followed after he was a doctor already, and then his new book, Hidden Medicine, some things that he talked about there. So what is the little bow on the package you'd like to put on our conversation to hit on? What was the most important thing that Tom had to say to us?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Dr. McCormack, Tom and his book, Hidden Medicine, it's so interesting because he's a psychiatrist, so he's not against medicine, Western medicine, but what he is I think advocating is for a more holistic view of health, which includes the spiritual side. And he talks about negative forces. Some could call it spiritual warfare, which he talks about a bit in his book, but negative influences. If we are watching the wrong things that just pull us down and just make us feel depressed about life, angry at ourselves, angry at others, just indulging that. It can be through substance abuse, alcohol or drugs. Those are things that erode our soul in addition to obviously they can hurt our health. He's advocating just be aware of that. Be aware of those forces that can really pull us down if we let them. Life is tough enough, but just really talking about things in his 12 steps of Ruachiatry that really fill us up. And he talked about things like forgiveness which should talk a lot about on this podcast, which doesn't mean condoning. It can be forgiving others, forgiving yourself, and just it can be making amends, filling yourself with truth. From his perspective and our perspective that could mean that the truth of the scriptures of the Bible. But whatever your spiritual religious paradigm is, fill yourself with truth.
Avoid the negative influences. Focus on the positive and didn't really get this into this in our discussion, but focus on what we call a life of significance. In the book, he does talk about one of the highest forms, I think spiritual, psychological health talks about other ... When you're focused on, from my perspective, a higher purpose or on helping other people, that's certainly, I think to me, a good part of spiritual health and soul health. So really, I think the big message is when we are told to focus on what we eat, avoid foods that are unhealthy. fill yourself with healthy foods, well, the same is true in spiritual health. Avoid influences that bring your soul down and fill yourself with influences that are good for your soul. That will both help your overall wellness as well as your overall outlook on life. So what's fascinating is he comes at it from a psychiatric clinical perspective, and his view is soul health, in my words and our words really [inaudible 00:59:15]. Avoid the things that drag you down. Fill yourself with truth, whether it's biblical truth or whatever truth you think is meaningful to you. Fill yourself with truth. That is the path to spiritual health and soul health.
Gary Schneeberger:
And remember this until the next time that we are together that we understand. We know your crucible experiences are difficult. Warwick knows that. Tom knows that. I know that. You've heard us all talk about that either here or in other episodes of the show. But know this also. That it's not the end of your story. Your crucible is not the end of your story. If you learn the lessons from it, and if you apply those lessons moving forward, you can chart yourself a course to the greatest destination you can ever reach, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready, visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Her life was in complete upheaval. Her future was uncertain. But her mind was made up.
Our guest this week, Sharon Land, recounts how a devastating relationship crucible, plus the health crisis of suffering a stroke in her 30s, led her to pursue true wellness — first for herself, and then for others as a licensed holistic therapist, high performance mentor and transformational guide.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Sharon Land:
That was when I realized that I was in a very, very unhealthy relationship. Lost everything and left with just basically whatever I could fit in my car, and drove 1,000 miles away. And that's when I said, "I never want to be in this position again, and I'm willing to understand how I got there and how I can never be there again."
Gary Schneeberger:
Her life in complete upheaval, her future uncertain, but her mind made up. Our guest this week, Sharon Land recounts how this relationship crucible, plus the health crisis of suffering a stroke in her 30s, led her to pursue true wellness, first for herself and then for others as a licensed holistic therapist, high-performance mentor, and transformational guide.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, Sharon, thank you so much for being here. Really looking forward to our discussion. I love learning a bit about you. You're a licensed holistic therapist. I like how in the material you describe yourself as a guide, a spiritual Sherpa. For those who haven't climbed Mount Everest or gone to Nepal recently-
Gary Schneeberger:
Me.
Warwick Fairfax:
... the Sherpas are those guides that help you up impossible mountains. Without the Sherpa, you're in trouble. So it's a wonderful metaphor. And you have a book, The Healer's Journey: Discover the Healer Within You. It's a great phrase. You've got the Prismatic program, which we'll hear about, the Transformational journey, the Live Your Legacy Retreat. Love that. Living your legacy, talk quite a bit about that.
So just before we get into what you do now, tell us a bit about the backstory and a young Sharon growing up, because very often we find the seeds of our purpose can be in just some of the stories and our life experiences. So what was life like for a young Sharon?
Sharon Land:
Yeah, and thank you for having me, and so good to meet both of you. Life for Sharon, I grew up on the East Coast in the US and two parent household, and really was born into kind of a spectrum of gifts. And did not know and wasn't guided and wasn't mentored that they were okay and how to work within them. So many people spend their lives seeking the opportunity to be able to see, to tap into their gifts of who they are and how they can show up in the world. And I was born into this big, loud spectrum of that. And so it was an interesting beginning.
And by all practices, I think my parents did the best that they could and they did all of the right things based upon whatever wisdom and guidance were provided at the time when I was born. But people who were born in the late '60s and '70s, I think most of us would say that we were quite feral and raised in a way that's a little bit different than how we know that perhaps we can be raised in a different way. So I don't fault my parents for being just very much like many other parents, just doing their best.
But one of the things that was resounding throughout my lifespan was that there was always some sort of a conflict, and that conflict started to show up in the physical disease. So I suffered very, very early on with debilitating migraines. And as I continued to progress throughout my life, it turned into lots of different things. So always with the best of intentions, the outcome wasn't the best for me. So it really just taught me to continue to conform, to mask, to pretend, to work harder, to work with the mental aspect of maybe it's just changing your perspective and maybe it's just realizing that there's something wrong with you and you just need to adhere to the way that everybody else is. And that led to a deeper conflict inside of me.
And I believe that a lot of people, especially high performers, all have this experience in their life where they didn't feel like they were really quite aligned. And maybe there's some sort of a major issue or maybe there's just a lot of chronic issues along the way and circumstances along the way that inform them that they have to perform in order to be seen, they have to perform in order to be loved, they have to perform in order to be worthy of space, literally taking up space in this world. And I was one of those.
So I spent a long time trying to outperform my past and find out who I was. And by the structures that we had set, I was doing all of the right things, but my body and my mind and my heart and my spirit all told me that I wasn't. So the big catalyst for me, one of the catalysts for me was I had a stroke and I was in my 30s, which was kind of unheard of at that time to be so young. And that was a big wake up call for me because, again, I was the one who was a perfectionist. I did everything right and wasn't perfect, but there was always the moving goalpost of trying to chase perfection.
So that allowed me to really take a look at my life. And I changed my life in many, many ways at that time. But it wasn't until much later that I had my crucible moment. And that was when I realized that I was in a very, very unhealthy relationship and lost everything and left with just basically whatever I could fit in my car, and drove 1,000 miles away. And that's when I said, "I never want to be in this position again. And I'm willing to understand how I got there and how I can never be there again, for myself, but also for my children."
Warwick Fairfax:
So it's probably unknowable, is your sense that some of the illnesses, the migraines, do you feel as you look back, that might have been related to just feeling like in almost like a psychological straitjacket, that you were trying to conform and that caused physical challenges? As you look back, do you see a connection between the way you thought you had to live and the physical illnesses?
Sharon Land:
100%. And now what I know is that I was living a life of survival, and we have this beautiful spiritual intersect within our physical bodies called our nervous systems that are wired for truth and wired for our basic needs and wired for safety. So as much as we might be programmed to believe that we're getting what we need or that there's something about you that needs to change or whatever, our nervous systems will always let us know. And the longer we live within that conflict, the more it's going to show up in our physical bodies. And that's by divine design, and that's a sign of health.
So it started with migraines and unfixable things. At one point I was diagnosed with lupus. But the interesting thing is that there are two different forms of activation within our nervous systems. We have the high end of activation, which is what we know most about, and then we have the low end of activation. So high end is irritability, superhuman capacity to be able to leap tall buildings with a single bound if we need to, get people out of a burning building. That's the sympathetic nervous system, and that's designed to help to keep us safe, right? But we also have something that when the thing that is creating the activation for us isn't addressed, then we go to another state within that survival mechanism, which is the dorsal vagal nervous system response, which puts us into a position of paralysis, disassociation, de-realization from our lives, de-realization and de-personalization from who we are. And in that survival, we fawn, we people please, we placate, we in many times get into a situation where we feel very hopeless.
So what I learned not just was that the physical aspects we're a result of not being honored, what I learned is there's a bio-scientific aspect to our survival that we live within that is going to affect if we constantly stay in our high-end or sympathetic nervous system response, it will affect kind of the brain, the brain stem, and then also our entire spine. So in all of the people who I've worked with, which are many, first responders all typically have some sort of spinal injury, police officers, firefighters, military and nurses, people who are first responders. And the majority of women speaking, just kind of acculturation, the majority of women all have autoimmune issues. 80% or more than 80% of people who are diagnosed with autoimmune issues and diseases are women. And the structures that we live within create a situation where there's kind of an unsolvable unfixable, unresolvable, repairable circumstance.
So that places us many times into the dorsal vagal, which the dorsal vagal affects things like our throat. Thyroid disease is one of the number one treated diseases within women. And that's all falls into the autoimmune, right? That's here. Digestive, IBS, our intestinal tract, reproductive. There is a warehouse now of fertility clinics across the world, but the majority here in the United States. All of that affects women. So there's a correlation to it's not just the family systems that we grew up in, but it's literally societal systems, it's structures, it's grid work that are creating a natural conflict that we live within. So I think that the root of it is very interesting and it's also very complex, and the solution can be very beautiful and liberating, and not just for yourself, but also for the collective, which is why we're here, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, and we'll get to this, I know one of the things you talk about is doctors, as good as they can be, seek to try to cure, and I love the phrase you use, rather than to heal. Very often for me, if I get stressed, it will sometimes often go to my stomach. That's sort of common. So yes, I could take all sorts of acid-reducing things, which in moderation is okay, you don't want to overdo it because that causes other things. But okay, so what's causing this stress? Let's see if we can reduce it. And then, hey, presto, my stomach feels better. I mean, that's a common thing that many people go through.
But so you had challenges growing up and have to try to fit in and maybe fulfill all the people's expectations and your own, but then the stroke and then just the breakup of your relationship with kids, I mean, that must have A, been devastating, but it would tend to lead to all sorts of other physical manifestations. I mean, obviously the stroke is a physical manifestation itself, but the breakup of a relationship, and when you feel like you lose everything relationally and financially, did it lead to some challenging physical characteristics?
Sharon Land:
Interestingly enough, there was definitely a stress response, so in the moment while I was going through it, high levels of cortisol in my body, so there was a lot of inflammation, but I was far enough along in my healing journey, I was armed and I had a lot of great protective factors within the practices, so spiritual practices, physical practices. So I was kind of like Forrest Gump. So I just ran, and that was how I just metabolized. So I just kept running and running and running. And then one day I was like, "Well, I'm done running," metaphorically and physically.
It was the first time in my life that I ever lived alone. And I was in my late 40s. I had never in my life ever lived alone. Both of my children were out of the house and so it was just me. And I lived in something called my launch pad. I called it my little launch pad. And in the beginning, I didn't even want to have furniture in it because it was so liberating to literally empty, internally and externally, every single thing that I had been carrying around. So interestingly enough, I became healthier and healthier with every day and every minute that I spent.
And always, there's these beautiful universal coincidences, right? So I met incredible healers along the way throughout my life that made such beautiful impact for me and helped me to catalyze my experience and alchemize my experience from it being the greatest wounding that I ever, ever could have experienced, to finally listening to the nudges all of my life, to honor who I truly am and to step into who I am here to be and serve in the ways that I am meant to be and stop hiding. So it was the womb that birthed me into my greatest, greatest, greatest expression. And so for that, I am so grateful.
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things we say at Beyond the Crucible, and we've had people with every crucible you can imagine, whether it's financial loss, victims of abuse, people who've made just terrible life decisions, losing loved ones, children, and this phrase has come up, "It didn't happen to you, it for you," and that sounds hard to understand, but pretty much every guest we've had who obviously people we've had on the show have moved to more of a life-affirming vision, they say, "It was terrible, but I learned some things," in many cases, I remember a woman by the name of Stacey Copas, she was a teenager in the suburb of Sydney. She dove into an above ground pool, which of course her parents said, "Don't do that, Stacey," but you know, kids ignore their parents, and she became diagnosed as a quadriplegic. Obviously she went through, as you would imagine, suicidal ideation and substance abuse.
But subsequently, as she moved forward, she said, "What I went through, I'm grateful for because the person I am now who's a strong person, dedicated to helping others and coaching and speaking," so it's hard to wrap your arms around that. How in the world could that be positive? So it seems like in your case you did too. You might've been in this small place with no furniture, but you found a way to turn it into a positive, as you put it, your mission was birthed out of that horrendous experience. So it's an amazing... I mean, you've got to reframe what happened, because we often say you have a choice.
You could have been angry and bitter and say, "That person, I didn't deserve that. I can't believe that," and just go the cycle of anger, bitterness, which is understandable. Oe you could say, "Okay, it wasn't right, it wasn't fair, but I need to find a way to move on, forgive, but not condone." And so you must have gone through that, that must have been... All those emotions there that you made a choice you would not be defined by this experience. You would not be in this victim mode and be angry and bitter for the rest of your life. You made a choice, right?
Sharon Land:
Yeah, it was 100% a choice. And also to your point, I'm so mindful when I'm working with people to not say, "This is probably going to be the best thing that's ever happened to you," because there's so much complexity that goes into it. We have to take into acculturation, we have to take into realistic things that are going on in the world where we are literally oppressed. So I do believe that we don't need to experience such tragic experiences in order to be able to alchemize and become who we are. And I have zero regrets. Zero regrets.
But the thing that really motivated me was that I raised my head above the rubble of my experiences in my life. And I knew that I had to take personal responsibility for who I am and who I was when I showed up in my relationships. So I never wanted to be the hero, I never wanted to be the victim, and I never wanted to be the villain. And actually, when I was working with somebody, they said, "You were a victim." And I said, "I will not wear that T-shirt. I won't ever wear that T-shirt."
And the thing that was the subtext for me was that for whatever reason, not saying that it wasn't intended or ever tried or whatever, there were places and spaces inside of me and inside of my life that I didn't experience love. And I vowed that every place that I allowed my metaphorical footsteps to be, that it would be with love and that I would no longer allow myself to hate or anger or self-betray or self-destruct because of an outward experience or an inward experience.
And it sounds so simple, but greeting yourself in all of those moments, you realize how, regardless as to where it came from, it's yours to hold, it's yours to honor, it's yours to live and embody. So love is what we're all here for. But the only way we can experience the true bounty of love is to live the experiences of our life and allow it to live through us. And that creates the wisdom. Wisdom isn't kept up here in our head. That's just information, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Wisdom tends to come through life experience. Do you feel like, and I want to get to what you do now, but do you feel like since you've had that mentality that yes, there's physical benefits, but that you approach life differently, relationships are different, I don't know, when you're in a better space, if you attract, I don't want to say better relationships, better environments, that somehow... Do you feel like those things changed a bit as you became more who were intended to be and were straitjacketed less by expectations or bitterness, that it changed the way you relate to the world and the way the world related to you, if that makes any degree of sense?
Sharon Land:
It makes complete sense. So what shapes us in the beginning is how we're responded to in our lives. So when we're super little infants before in the womb, whatever. And so the way that we relate to ourselves, the way that we relate to the world and the way that the world interacts with us is shaped based upon that frequency. So the undoing of the misinformation will allow you to be able to show up differently.
But the interesting thing for me in my own experience, what I'm here for, is not just to be off on my own slaying dragons. Part of what I realized is that it's easy to heal in a vacuum. It's easy to say that you've done all of the things and do it all on your own and live in a bubble, in a glass house. But I think it was Ram Dass who said, "If you think you're enlightened, go and spend a week with your family." It's kind of the same thing, right? It's not easy because we are here for connection. We're wired for connection. We're here to work as a union, in union with another. So it's not until you can join safely, openly, abundantly with fullness of who you are, that you really can, in my opinion, say that you can serve well.
Warwick Fairfax:
I want to make sure we get to what you do now, because I think a lot of what you talk about is you're not against Western medicine. It can be helpful, but so often in the West, doctors seek to cure. They want to give you a tablet for everything, and it's like, but what's the underlying cause of it? It might be lifestyle, psychological, eating habits. And it's like back to the stomach ache thing, which I don't get that often, but you sort of read some holistic books on that and it's like, okay, don't eat as many tomatoes and don't eat... I don't know, there's a series of things you shouldn't eat because that tends to activate your stomach. Okay, well I can do that. It's not a magic cure, but it helps. Well, a doctor isn't going to say, "So how many tomatoes did you eat this week? You eat lots of ketchup?" I mean, they're not going to ask that question. That's just one sliver. It's like, "Well, here's an anti acid reduction." "Okay, that's great."
So just talk about your perspective on, again, you're not against medicine, but just healing as opposed to curing. And it seems like in our Western medical culture, it does seem to be changing a bit. There are some enlightened doctors that are beginning to talk about this. As you would know better than me, there are doctors who talk about holistic medicine, and they're licensed doctors, but they also talk about other things. Not many, but some. Just talk about how you view that, the curing versus healing and how you work with people that you work with.
Sharon Land:
So first interesting to note on my roster all of the time, I have at least one doctor, one nurse, one practitioner, one PA, and they come to me because they're living in conflict. There's something that's showing up in their lives and they can't figure out what's going on. So we go through the process of their own healing journey and becoming more of who they are and understanding who they are and why they are where they are, which is fascinating and beautiful. We walk the line, we walk the line of the esoteric and however much they embrace. And then it's so fun to see the progress of, "Okay, well I know that this is this, but I'm still going to go to the doctor because my cholesterol is high." And the doctor will say, "Okay, well you need to go on a statin," right? And they'll say, "Well, I don't want to go on a statin, but I can't tell them it's because I'm working with my inner child right now and I really think that I'll be able to reduce my cholesterol by whatever."
So they figure out a way to walk the line of the healing work and live authentically to who they are, and also not cause any harm to how they're showing up currently where their feet are planted right now in their professions. So we have context which is very important to our healing, which I think is a big part of it. So Western medicine is designed, especially here in the US, as emergency medicine. So it makes complete sense that when somebody shows up to the emergency room, to the doctor's office, to the clinic, to the whatever, things have gotten to a point of it's critical. There's some sort of critical piece. So I would never say, we don't need a doctor to help with a broken bone or to help with a heart attack when it's happening or whatever.
Now, what caused the heart attack? That's a whole different story. How we can never get there again, that's a whole different story. So for instance, we're still so misinformed, even through our traditional training and teaching for doctors, for instance, women in menopause, one of the number one risk factors of women in menopause is not them losing their minds because their hormones are dropping, it's heart disease, it's cardiac disease. And because they've gone untreated for as long as they've gone, they're at a much higher risk. And also there is a prevalence of heart attacks or heart arrhythmia or issues within the heart. So when I say root cause, I'm not always just saying trauma. I'm saying what is it the root of what your needs are?
Warwick Fairfax:
And that could be physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual. It could be all sorts of different roots. And so how do you explore those? So talk a bit about holistic healing. And there's different spiritual practices that you obviously have to tailor to whoever's with you. If you have some corporate executive, there's probably going to be some Eastern traditions they're really not too open to or any. So it depends on the person, but you probably have a whole bunch of tools that you can find, I'm guessing, one that will fit for them. "Okay, you don't like this? That's fine, how about this other one?"
Sharon Land:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So talk about how that works as you're dealing with folks. What does holistic healing look like? It's not in conflict with Western medicine, but it's different. So what do you try to do with somebody that says, "Hey, Sharon, I kind of need help," what does that look like, holistic healing?
Sharon Land:
So it's very much of how you've just introduced it, so it's meeting the person where they are. One of the skills that I would say that I'm very strong with is I'm very intuitive and I'm able to read people pretty quickly, and from the most purest of lenses. So not in a critical, "There's something wrong with you," or whatever, but just like, "Okay, where are you?" I ask myself that question when I'm talking to somebody, "Where are you?" I ask, "Where is this person? Where are the pressures?" Many, many times I've worked with people who work on Wall Street, and a very typical secret that they hide for a long time are panic attacks. They're having panic attacks, anxiety, literally. Some where they're hiding from their partners. They'll go and hide in an office room where they know that people don't normally go and they'll lay on the floor because they're having a panic attack.
So I might see that, I might know that, but asking the direct question, "Are you having a panic attack?" Or, "Are you doing whatever" would be very, very unsafe? And make them put their walls of protection up more. So to navigate and find our way into what feels right for them in that moment to help to address things, I feel is an art. And it's very, very important because my dedication to myself when I was going through the last pieces of my healing is I do not want any place that my metaphorical feet go or physical feet go, that aren't with love and acceptance. And I feel the same way with all of the people that I'm blessed to be able to work with. Every single place we go has to come from a place of, "I'm ready." And that readiness takes as long as it takes.
Warwick Fairfax:
Probably this sort of intuitive dance. I can think of obviously there are differences between men and women in our society, certainly Western society, men are taught to sort of buckle up, be strong, don't admit weakness, don't be vulnerable, and certainly a lot of male anyway, Wall Street executives to admit they have panic attacks, that's admitting they're weak, which they're taught is you never, ever do. You just say, "Oh, things are good, I'm fine." But that could be perfectionism. It's like, "Gosh, the market's down. My whole sense of self is defined by the stock market. If it's up, I'm a good person. If it's down, I'm a bad person." So obviously try to disconnect that. But obviously with some male Wall Street executives, it's got to be challenging. But over time you build up a relationship and they trust you and sort of lock by block, drip by drip, the truth, their truth comes out. So you're probably very good at what you do that once trust is built, one way or another, they'll let you know what the problem is, right? It'll come out.
Sharon Land:
Yes. And I really believe that it's never about what's right and wrong, although there are very few things that I'll be like, "That's right and wrong." But it's really about understanding the organic essence of who you are and why you're here and looking at what you're surrounded with to see what is not in alignment with that. So I give an example, and I say this many times, because then I have people who are the opposite, where they read all of the books and they see all the memes and they're on social media and they're just like, "I have CPTSD," and, "I have this," and, "I was traumatized and I'm abused and I want to fix it all now. I just want to fix it now." And I'm like, "All right, pump the brakes and we're going to again come with our agreement, which is no more suffering."
That's one of the first things that I have every single client come to an agreement with me and some put it up on their computers, no more suffering so that they can remind themselves every single day that suffering is a choice. Pain is going to happen regardless, but suffering is a choice. So I give this example of a city block, so let's just say we're on a city block and somebody plants a tree next to a fire hydrant and it's a sapling and there's plenty of space for the two of them to coexist. But 100 years later, that tree has continued to grow and it's now grown around the fire hydrant.
So I can walk by and say, "That fire hydrant's not supposed to be there," or, "That tree's not supposed to be there. So we got to fix it." If I were to go in and try and eradicate that fire hydrant from the tree and we'll just benefit the tree over the fire hydrant because the tree is living and the fire hydrant is not. So what would happen to the tree if I removed that fire hydrant in completion? It would probably die because for 100 years it has accommodated and it is coexisted with, even though it's not in alignment, it's not supposed to be there, you can see in the leaves and in the branches the reflection of the fire hydrant and the impact and the impression that made on it.
So bit by bit you work with, you sit, you rest, you digest, you observe, you allow the healthy aspects of self to come through and do its magic, and then you go back in again and you allow yourself to be guided. And that's the beautiful thing of the work with me is that it's not in a can, it's not a program where I walk people through paces and whatever. It's a dance of just that, where we're guided. And in the beginning it doesn't feel very organic. But in the end, one of the reflections that I get from everyone that I work with is like, "Wow, I came in asking for tools," and I'll look at them and I'll joke and I'll say, "You need another tool like you need another window on your house. You don't need another tool. You've got a whole extra garage and shed just to hold all of the tools that you have just to be able to exist in your life. What you need is to be able to show up and organically be you and trust yourself."
Warwick Fairfax:
A different perspective. That's really interesting the metaphor of the tree and the fire hydrant. Some things will heal and maybe some things, to a degree, won't exactly heal, but you learn to live with them and they become part of your new you and your new purpose. And obviously, there's extreme example of people with physical challenges, there are some wounds that it's not possible to physically heal, but you learn to become the new you. Somehow you weave it into your purpose and helping people understand patience. And I imagine you give people skills so that when they're not with you in a session, they're able to self-diagnose, help.
By nature, I'm a very reflective person, that has its pluses and minuses, but usually, if something's wrong, I want to know why and where. I don't brush over it. I'm just not wired that way. So I'd love just as we kind of begin to close, I mean you've got so many great things, you've got the Prismatic program. I love this whole Live Your Legacy. We don't often think enough about legacy and purpose. And I'm guessing in what you do... Or maybe I should ask a question, this is maybe an obvious question, but to what degree does it help somebody to have purpose and feeling like life is not just about them, it's both and yes, it's about being the best person you can be, but it's also about making a contribution in the world, whatever that means to you? Do you feel like that has a place in healing and moving forward when you see your purpose in the world and there's some other centered nature to it?
Sharon Land:
Yeah. And some would argue that we have multiple purposes, right? And I believe that too. So for me, it comes down to personal responsibility. And so we're responsible for the energy that we bring to every single situation. So I'm responsible to the energy that I'm bringing here and with whether it's going to the store, getting a coffee, meeting with the clients, [inaudible 00:40:51] with my partner, with my children. So to me, your legacy has a lot to do with the essence of who you are. And that's beautiful. It's like a fingerprint. It's all very different, some similarities between others, but the essence of who you are is that feeling that you're left with after you're gone, and that's spirit also.
So living your legacy isn't always necessarily about the job that you do, but really getting to know the essence of who you are so that everywhere you go it's purpose-filled and you don't need a tangible, binary transactional proof of that. And to live, to me, it's so beautiful to be able to live in a way that you know that whether things go the way that you want them to or think they're supposed to or don't, that somebody listens to you, understands you or doesn't, that you are exactly where you're meant to be, doing and saying exactly what you're meant to be saying and what you are-
Warwick Fairfax:
And that will leave a positive influence on your kids, friends, somebody you meet at the grocery store, these imperceptible imprints, you will leave if you're your best self, you'll leave a positive mark. And so that your legacy doesn't have some big nonprofit. It can be in 100, 1,000 relationships, meeting conversations, that can be part of your legacy. It may not be tangible, but it may still be beautiful, if that makes sense.
Sharon Land:
Yes, yes, exactly.
Gary Schneeberger:
I've been uncharacteristically quiet in this entire conversation, partly because truly Sharon, I can tell, I've been through enough of these with Warwick, when he's really interested in what a guest is having to say. So every time I think I'm going to be able to jump in, he has a follow-up question, which is great.
Warwick Fairfax:
Sorry about that.
Gary Schneeberger:
No, that's what makes the show what it is. But I'm curious, one of the things that we stand for, that Warwick stands for at Beyond the Crucible a lot, we encourage people to find that life of significance, what he defines as a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. And when we talked before we started recording, you told me something that I've circled on my paper that tells me you are indeed living that life of significance. And you said this to me, that you've discovered the giver is always the receiver.
Sharon Land:
Yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
Is that a fair analysis of all that you've been talking about right here on this episode?
Sharon Land:
Yes, yes, yes. There is no greater gift than to see someone in their fullest expression, and especially when we all have living examples, we see it, we've experienced it, people close to us or people who we've known in the media where there was such a deep pain within them that they felt they couldn't live in their expression and it ended poorly for them. So to me, most of my life, I was like the Cyrano de Bergerac of helpers. So I was always behind the scenes, never really seen whatever, and the one whispering the whatever, and that there was a great gift in that. But now that I find that I am doing it in a way where I am divinely guided to do, and being front and center, being interviewed by you, by being on stages, by speaking, by being on television and all of that, I believe that there's such beautiful alignment and that the more I can give from a place of safety, truth, presence, authenticity, life is good.
Warwick Fairfax:
When you're who you are and you're giving to others out of the very essence of what makes Sharon Sharon, and you're helping people and once in a while, probably very often, they say, "Sharon, you got me through this tough time. I've never been more fully who I am. I've never been more joyful. Life isn't necessarily easy, but yet I have a bigger smile on my face than before we met," that has got to give you so much joy in which you say, "Well, thank you," and it's okay to be filled with joy when you somehow make a small or a big difference. It's okay to feel that pleasure and satisfaction, and at least from my spiritual time, I say that, "Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Jesus for the opportunity." And yeah, I greatly, it means a lot to feel like you're doing something and making a difference in the world, be it small or big, nobody may know, maybe many will know, but you know. And that matters. Does that make sense?
Sharon Land:
It totally makes sense. I'm in partnership with someone and we have a wonderful relationship, and so we go to the gym together and I work with professional athletes, and so no one knows. No one knows that I'm working with that particular professional athlete. I don't go out, I have no need to tell anyone who my clients are. Actually the Live My Legacy retreat is such a high touch, bespoke experience to protect the identities of the people that are coming. But it's so great that when I see my client on the TV screen, as we're at the gym working out, at least I have someone who I can like... You know? There's joy in that because we both love them because many times we work together and we have some things that we do together. So we both know this particular client and we absolutely adore who we're working with and honor them. So yeah, it's a beautiful thing. It's beautiful.
Gary Schneeberger:
I'm going to jump in again here because I'd be remiss, Sharon, if I didn't give you the chance after all you've talked about here that you help people with, if I didn't give you the chance to tell our listeners and viewers just how they can find out more about you and your services on the worldwide web. So where can they go?
Sharon Land:
Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Well, my website is sharanjeanland.com. My Instagram handle is @SharonJeanLand. You can find me also on LinkedIn. And I love working with community and I love creating movements for other individuals. I have a few different ways that I work with individuals and groups, and I would say my primary is more of a high touch service where I'm working one-on-one as a mentor. And when we speak holistically, we're talking about all areas and aspects.
So from professional, business, personal, relational, physical health, financial health. And I was just talking with someone this morning before our call and said, "You're only as strong as your weakest link," so I wouldn't feel like I was doing my job if I wasn't able to help to work within all of the complexities of all of the moving parts of somebody's life. So I do that from my own personal success and experience and failures and things that I've learned from, and I really do it well and am able to really get in there and help individuals not have to completely obliterate their lives in order to be able to move forward in a different way. So I'm a little bit of an artist when it comes to that.
We do have our Live Your Legacy Retreat coming up in October, and it's a very small, intimate group, which we do have space for the right person who is a high performer, looking to really understand the essence of who they are and understand the legacy that they're here to live and create a greater alignment within themselves. So it's a wonderful opportunity to be able to just take space, which most high performers don't ever feel like they have time for. Yeah, and we have some performance where we work with some high performance people who are professional athletes and out there on the big international stages. So I work with people globally as well. So acculturation is really important and I love that piece as well.
Gary Schneeberger:
So Warwick, as always, the last question or questions, because you get to pick if you want to ask one or two or three or four, the last question or questions are yours for Sharon.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Sharon, there might be somebody listening and watching today that maybe they feel like today's their worst day, they might feel like the mistake they made is unforgivable or what was done to them might just seem so painful, and maybe that's manifested itself in illnesses. What would a word of hope for that person be? Because today they might feel pretty hopeless and that there is no path forward. What would a word of hope be if today was somebody's worst day?
Sharon Land:
Well, to be aware of the fact that it's one of your worst days is a blessing and a gift and a sign of your health and a sign of your capacity to grow and serve and expand. Even though you might feel hopeless, to recognize that says that you have something there. And it doesn't have to be a huge phoenix rising moment for you. And that some of the best ways to show up in life are making small, tiny measurable steps in percentages of 1%, half percent, 10% differences in your life. And if you feel down, it's okay. Let yourself feel down. Remember what it feels like, remember where you are right now, and honor all of these experiences that you have physically and emotionally and spiritually because this is a sign pointing you in a direction of where you can go to help to address where you're meant to go.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on a subject has been spoken. And our guest today has indeed spoken it not only the last word, but she's also spoken... Go back and listen to this and watch this again. You, Sharon, are a master dropper of metaphors. Love it. There's like three or four things I've written down. The metaphors that you speak about the things that you encounter and how we can overcome them are grand. So bravo for that.
So Warwick, we're just minutes after we closed our conversation with Sharon Land, and it was a wide ranging conversation that people will notice when they watch it you are particularly engaged in. So I'm dying to know what's the big takeaway that you got from our time, our chat with Sharon?
Warwick Fairfax:
Sharon has an interesting view of wellness. One of the things she talks about is in Western medicine, we can be so focused on the cure that we don't consider other ways of healing, other approaches. And she's not against Western medicine, that can be very helpful. But I think what she's advocating is looking beyond just trying to cure the disease to what are some of the factors that led to it? So she looks at the whole person, emotional, spiritual, and physical. Some obviously as we know, diet and exercise can definitely help in terms of making you healthy and lowering cholesterol, and there are some things we all know about, but just looking at overall wellness, certainly high stress can lead to adverse health consequences. The exact connection, it's not easy to tell, but I think it's known that there is some connection. So what are the ways we can reduce stress as well as just increasing wellness overall?
And it's interesting hearing about Sharon's story. She shares that when she was 12, 13, and a teenager, obviously as a child you're not really in charge of your health, your parents are, and she went through a number of challenges. But what was interesting is when she said that she had a stroke in 2005 and then a committed relationship she was in broke up, those were absolutely devastating. But I sense from what she said that as devastating as it was, she has some tools to help her that she didn't have when she was a child that helped her deal with those better and bounce back.
So she has a number of private clients, some are probably pretty well-known athletes, but it's obviously all confidential and she wants to protect that, and she's able to just give them a wide variety of tools, different spiritual modalities, so to help people just get in touch with who they are, what are some of the causes of it? How do you manage some of those things? How do you accept maybe the new normal? Just doing more than just traditional medicine, as good as that is, but just try to deal with the whole person.
And as people are bouncing back from their crucibles, you've got to deal with the whole person. You've got to deal with how you process your crucible to bounce back. You've got to understand the causes. You've got to make a choice to move forward and not wallow in what you went through. There are consequences that sometimes won't change. You've got to learn how to live in the new normal. So she dwells in a space that definitely has overlap with what we do.
So yeah, medicine is useful, but there are things that you have to do beyond just taking traditional medicine, which is helpful, to deal with the whole person, the underlying causes, what's leading to stress, is it unresolved conflict? Using prayer or other spiritual modalities. So it was very thought-provoking discussion about what does wellness mean in the broad sense of the word?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, those areas that you said that she overlaps with Beyond the Crucible, I was struck by one at the end of the process, the life of significance process. She said this, which I just thought I've never heard a guest phrase it this way, but it's so true with what we know from our own experiences and the experience of the guests. She said this, that she's discovered the giver is always the receiver. There's a life of significance right there. As you give, you receive. I mean, talk about that a little bit. That's a pretty profound statement, and it definitely aligns with what we do.
Warwick Fairfax:
It sure is. I mean, that's such a great point, Gary. One of the things we say is, yes, you've got to understand what happened, your crucible, you've got to have times of reflection. We talk about this quite a bit in the Actionable Truths series that we're going through. But really one of the things that we say is one of the keys to getting out of the pit of despair is to have a vision, a life-affirming vision that leads to a life of significance, a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. And very often, for many, if not most of our guests, their life-affirming vision comes out of the crucible, "I don't want anybody to go through what I went through. I want to help people that went through what I went through to bounce back."
So when you're focused on helping others and you see that you've made a difference, and somebody says, "Boy, Gary, Warwick, what you did, it kind of helped me," and when you feel like what you're doing is making a difference, it's kind of a bit easier to get out of bed in the morning. It feels like life has purpose. It's easier to be grateful. It's easy to be thankful. And there's some level of internal emotional, spiritual healing which, who knows, might have physical benefits too. But yeah, when we're focusing on giving and not just receiving and focus on helping others, there's definitely some, I think, overall wellness and certainly spiritual and emotional benefits.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, until the next time we're together, please remember this truth. We know your crucible experiences are hard. Warwick's been through them, Sharon's been through them, I've been through them. But we also know this, they're not the end of your story. That's what we talked about here today. In fact, they can be the beginning of a new story that can be the best story of your life because where it's going to lead you is to a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Building a Life-Changing Gratitude Habit
How do we train our brains, hearts and souls to dial into gratitude? That’s the ground we cover today as we look at Warwick’s latest blog — How to Tap Into the Life Changing Power of Gratitude.
We explore seven steps that will help you focus more regularly on being grateful. And, as a bonus, we also discuss the physical, psychological and social benefits of living from an attitude of gratitude.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. We need to train our brains, our hearts, even our souls, to dwell on gratitude. So gratitude will help give us energy and power to move us forward, which we all want to do, especially when we've had a crucible. We want to move forward. We want to move beyond it. And gratitude, it helps us power us forward to a more positive outlook on life that will actually help us lives of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
How do we train our brains, hearts and souls to dial into gratitude? That's the ground we cover today as we look into Warwick's latest blog, how to tap into the Life-Changing Power of Gratitude? We explore seven steps that will help you focus more regularly on being grateful. And as a bonus, we also discuss the physical, psychological, and social benefits of living with an attitude of gratitude. Welcome folks, to another episode of Beyond the Crucible, and this is one of the fun ones. Well, they're all fun ones, let's be honest. But this is one of those Warwick, that we discuss your most recent blog at Beyondthecrucible.com. And you felt very strongly about this one. You chose the topic from several ideas you thought about over this summer that just now as we're recording this, ended just two days ago. So let's start off by how I always begin episodes like this where we're going over one of your blogs, and that is, what led you to write this blog, which is titled How to Tap Into the Life-Changing Power of Gratitude? What was it that made that what you had to write about this month?
Warwick Fairfax:
Life is not easy, and it's normal and understandable for our minds to drift to things that are challenging. We can think of everything that's gone wrong, what's going wrong now, what's gone wrong in the past, what will go wrong in our lives in the future. We often think of, "Oh, I hope this doesn't happen. Oh, I've got a terrible feeling about this coming meeting, or this family Thanksgiving or Christmas." We can just drift into all of the things that we're worried about, or I don't know, there could be cutbacks at work and I got a bad feeling about it. So you mind drift, everything that has gone wrong, is going wrong, will go wrong. And then we drift into thinking about people that have hurt us. People that have let us down. Maybe it's at work, maybe friends, maybe family. And then we can think of the mistakes we've made. "Gosh, boy, that was so stupid. Why did I do that?"
And then we just certainly, I do this quite a bit, almost this endless of just, "Why did I do that? That was just not smart. I wish I hadn't." I know we can get into almost this endless negative, depressing cycle of thoughts and one feeds on another that we have this almost doom loop, this flywheel of negativity. One bad thought leads to another and off we go. So it's understandable that we have these negative thoughts because life is not easy. But we have to ask ourselves, how does this serve us? And the answer is, it doesn't. To move forward in our lives and bounce back from our worst day, our crucibles to a more fulfilling life, which we call a life of significance. We need to train our brains to think differently. We need to train our brains to think of more positive, indeed helpful thoughts.
And this is not a natural thing. Our brains tend to go to the negativity, to the current in front of us, to cut us off, or that bad meeting that we just came out of, or challenges at home. That's all very natural. It's not natural to start thinking of positive thoughts, but we need to train our brains, our hearts, even our souls to dwell on gratitude. So gratitude will help give us energy and power to move us forward, which we all want to do, especially when we've had a crucible. We want to move forward, we want to move beyond it. And gratitude helps us power us forward to a more positive outlook on life that will actually help us live lives of significance. And it's interesting as I think about the origin story of this discussion. Yes, I've been thinking of a lot of things over the summer when we do the summer movie series, and we do that in advance like we've mentioned.
So there's still things to do, but it's not quite the same pace. So being a reflective person, lots of ideas percolate in my brain. And so there was one time towards the end of the summer, where we are in Northern Michigan is about an hour away from the nearest airport. And I'm dropping my oldest son off at the airport. It's about an hour drive. And so after I've dropped him off, I have, as I mentioned, an hour's drive back to where we are. And that goes along the shores of Lake Michigan. And so it's summer. And so you can see the sun glimmering in the water. You've got these beautiful trees and small towns. It's a very beautiful, restful drive. And so here I am, I'm in the car for a while, it's just me. And on the spur of the moment, without some plan, I just think about gratitude. And it wasn't some big plan. I just thought, "I'm going to spend the rest of this drive, which is an hour, thinking about everything I was grateful for in life." It wasn't some plan. I thought, "Okay, let's start, see what happens."
And so I did. And just like with thoughts of negativity, one thought can lead to another. Thoughts of positivity, gratitude, one thought can lead to another. So just to give you an idea, I'm a person of faith. So I started with faith. And so I started thinking about, "Wow, I remember when faith, in my case, faith in Christ became important in my life." It was at an evangelical Anglican church at Oxford University where I went, St Aldates was the church. I remember thinking about the friend who invited me to church and I said no a few times, but eventually came. I think about the Anglican retreat on the Devon coast of England, Lee Abbey, which was an Oxford-Cambridge retreat. And I began thinking about the walks along the cliffs, and the countryside, and the afternoons, and singing choruses and Christian choruses and listening to testimonies and sermons. And I'm thinking about how wonderful that was.
And I drifted, time in New York when I lived there in a couple churches I was in there and that life group. And I think about back in Australia and some people that were very helpful during those challenging times with the takeover in the family media business. And think about the church I go to now, and I'm blessed to be an elder there. So I got pretty specific. And so then I drifted to other thoughts, to family. So I started with faith and then I went to family. I think of my wife, Gail, who we've been married over 35 years, and how blessed I am. I think of my three adult kids, will, Gracie, and Robbie, what a blessing they are. I think of meaningful work that I have. So I think it doesn't have to be this way, but I think often for many of us when we're thinking about gratitude or indeed prayer, we can break it down in faith, or beliefs, values, whatever that means to you. Faith, family, work, just big categories.
And in terms of work, I think of all the things we do at Beyond the Crucible, and the wonderful team I have and how much I love what we do. I think of the nonprofits I've been involved in, such as being an elder at my church. And for many years I was on the board of my kids' school, which is a Christian school. So the bottom line is, by the end of that drive, I was feeling incredibly grateful, incredibly blessed and uplifted. I was in a good mood after an hour thinking of how blessed I am in each of these areas of my life. And again, it was an hour, so I went into a lot of detail, faith, family, work. And that whole exercise, which was unplanned, reminded me of how important it is to be positive, and how important it is to be grateful because it's not natural to do what I did, to think about all the wonderful things that have blessed your life. We just tend to go to the negative and ignore the positive.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and it's interesting because you talk about the intentionality of that, and I have my own origin story a little bit on, and I'll talk about some more of it later, but here's one of them right here. It's a book called The Little Book of Gratitude that I have, and I just go through it periodically. And one of the things that's interesting, because you said at the end of that drive, you felt great. There's a physical feeling that comes with that. Well, one of the things that I've found for a while now in this book, the Little Book of Gratitude, is that there's a PhD named Robert Evans who is one of the world's leading authorities on gratitude. He's a professor of psychology at the University of California Davis. And he has enumerated some, and I'm not going to go through all of them, but he's enumerated some of the physical, and emotional, and mental benefits, the true benefits of gratitude.
Here's just a few of the things. Physical well-being, stronger immune systems for those who lean into gratitude, lower blood pressure, sleep longer, and feel more refreshed upon waking. Hallelujah for that. There's psychological well-being he also talks about, higher levels of positive emotions. We all would benefit from that for sure. More joy and pleasure. Who doesn't want that? Who doesn't want more joy or pleasure? And Robert Evans says that when you lean into gratitude, when you find and dig into those things that you're grateful for, that's what can come up. And then I'll just mention social well-being, more forgiving. Well, my goodness, we talk about forgiveness all the time here at Beyond the Crucible.
So if you have gratitude for the things in your life that are good, for the people in your life that are good, that bless you, that can make you more forgiving, and that can help you get beyond your crucible. And less loneliness and more outgoing. So those are just some of the things, Little Book of Gratitude that Robert Evans talks about. But Warwick, I'm interested, what's your reaction to these physical, emotional, mental areas of well-being that can come from being what you've just talked about, what we're talking about here, and that's gratitude?
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things I talk about is these so-called Blue Zones in different parts of the world where you've got people that live longer, and Mediterranean and different places, and they analyze, well why? And some of it makes sense. They have a great diet like in the Mediterranean, it's more of a Mediterranean diet, pasta, vegetables, fruit, nuts, what have you. They have a circle of friends that they spend time with. They have some connection to faith, higher power or something like that. And they're naturally positive people. The glass is half full. They just have this sunny disposition and surprise, they live longer. Well, that research, if you will, is cross-currents with Robert Evans research, which is having this attitude of gratitude, having this sense of positivity, it is beneficial in every area of your life, physical, psychological, social. So it makes sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
And folks, if you want to have those psychological, those physical health benefits, here we go. We're going to go into Warwick's blog now. And I know you'll be surprised like I was when I first read the blog that Warwick has, wait for it, seven points in his blog. It's funny, Warwick, I always build our runs of show, the things that we're going to talk about off the previous episode. And the last time we did this before the summer series, you had nine. I almost fell over when I remembered that you had nine points, but we have seven this time. So let's run through those points in all seriousness, because they are good ones. They are points that will help you folks find, tap into, locate your gratitude. And the first one is this, pause the anger and grievance cycle. Talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
So we have to stop the flywheel of doom and negativity, because it's normal for that to be a flywheel, one thought leads to another and off you go. You've got to stop that endless cycle of negativity, of recriminations for what you've done wrong and what was done to you. You've got to just pray, pause, meditate, and just pray, look to a higher power just for strength to just, let me pause and stop. Let me just clear my mind, be still, maybe it's take a walk in the woods. Whatever it takes to just clear your mind. Maybe it's just doing something that would take your mind off it. Maybe you're a painter, maybe you like to make things in your shop, just different woodworking, whatever it takes. Find a way, be it prayer, meditation or things to take your mind off it to a positive direction. Find a way to pause the anger and grievance cycle, because you can't move forward in a positive direction until you stop what can feel like an endless cycle of thoughts of negativity.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and it's interesting that you mentioned artists, someone who might be a painter. Because I was thinking as you were saying that, this step, pause, the anger and grievance cycle is like starting is like wiping your slate clean, wiping your palette clean, what you're going to paint on, giving yourself a canvas to paint something on. And your second point is when you begin the painting process. And your second point is this, think of at least one thing you're grateful for. One thing you can paint on that palette. So talk about why that's so important.
Warwick Fairfax:
Now, this might feel like on your worst days, almost impossible. It's like, "What could I possibly be grateful for? I've been betrayed, I've made some horrific decisions. My business is going under, I've just got fired. I've been grateful. What could there possibly be to be grateful for?" But typically there's at least one thing. Maybe it's a spouse, a partner, maybe it's a child, a friend, a parent. Maybe it's a friend at school. Maybe it's just being grateful for some of the abilities you have. Maybe you're athletic, or artistic, or maybe you just have this love of learning and reading. Think of one thing that you're grateful for, and for people of faith, it could be broader. It could be just being thankful for having God in your lives. It's interesting as I thought about, what's one thing it could be grateful for? Actually, my mind drifted, being reflective, back our summer movie series and Rudy. And you remember, and you can tell our friends here, but Rudy grew up in this working class neighborhood, Indiana, not far from Chicago.
And he wanted to play football at Notre Dame, which being at the time, a senior of high school, just out of it was like an impossible dream. Everybody was very negative. Everybody's almost laughed at him. But he had this friend at the steel mill where he worked after high school, and this one friend kept encouraging him, and he gave him a Notre Dame jacket where he wanted to play. So I guess the point of the story is, if you ask Rudy what's one thing or one person you can be grateful for, probably the first thing he would say is, "My friend at the mill." Other than that, what are you grateful for? Well, he'd probably be hard perhaps to think of anything at that point in his life, if that makes sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, for sure. That's a very great example of if you just look around, if you do a 360, if you look, you'll find it. It's there. I think our experience tells us that. And the experience of the guests we've had on the show tells us that. And the experience of the people we know in our lives tells us that. This quote I'm about to read from the Little Book of Gratitude tells us that too. This is from someone named Alphonse Carr. Alphonse Carr said this, I love this. "Some people are because roses have thorns." He said, "I am thankful. I am thankful that thorns have roses." Sometimes the way to find gratitude is to just change your perspective, to look at something in a different way. That's a fair way to do it. Don't look at it in the way that leads you to feel, "I'm on the bad end of this." Switch around, change your perspective, find the good end. That's a pretty good kernel of wisdom, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It is, maybe you wanted to go outside and have a run and it's raining. It's like God, really, and it's not a massive crucible, but rather than saying that, it's like, "Well, at least my grass will grow and the flowers will get watered." And rain can be just refreshing. And anything in life you can look at negatively, on the other hand, you can look at it positively. Maybe it's Thanksgiving and you got some challenging family members coming. It's like, "Well, okay, maybe it's an opportunity to reset. Maybe I can think of something I can be grateful for them, and maybe it's going to be an opportunity where I can encourage that crusty, incorrigible uncle that I have. That's always a pain. Let me think of something positive about him and I'm going to think of a way to reset this time. So your attitude going into things makes a huge difference.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I'm a little spooked, Warwick, that you brought up raining when you want to go running. Do you ever tap into my ring doorbell? Because that's exactly what's going on in Wisconsin today as we're talking. So I'm not going to be able to run at least outside because it's raining. But enough about that. Let's go to the third point in your blog and the third point in your blog is this, begin to create categories of things and people you are grateful for. Why is that the next good and logical step to build gratitude?
Warwick Fairfax:
So part of this is, you're trying to set up a flywheel of hope. You're trying to set up a flywheel of gratitude. And so to do that, it takes a few steps. Because often it's not easy to go from negativity to positivity. And so even if you've paused the anger and grievance cycle, if you're not careful, it's almost like being on a steep hill. You can start slipping. And so it's good to think of not just one thing from my perspective, but just think of a bunch of things. You think of your family. You can think of parents, spouse, partner, kids, friends, people you've known different times of your life, co-workers. It could be relationships you have now, it could be in the past. Think of the work you do. Maybe there are some things you can think of that you are grateful for. Think of the gifts and abilities that you have.
So it helps before getting into a deep dive to think of the categories. And I think one easy way to think of it, you could break it down into three broad categories, faith, family, work. It could be more than that. You could call it beliefs, family, work, and you could add on activities and hobbies. But a good place to start is with those three, you can always expand, faith, family, work. And so now you've got three categories or more to mine from. So you might be thinking, "Okay, what's one thing I can think of in each area?" one thing leads to another. But having categories helps you move from one thing to more than one thing.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good stuff. Folks, we are talking about Warwick's latest blog, which is called How to Tap into the Life-Changing Power of Gratitude. We are on step four to build that, to find that life-Changing power of gratitude. And step four is this, spend time in each of these categories and go into some detail. So you've got the categories, you've built them, now you lean into them, now you really spend time ruminating on them, exploring them, unpacking them. Talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
So for me as a person of faith, on that drive back from the airport dropping my son off, that hour drive back, I started with faith as I mentioned. I got into some detail about where I came to faith in Christ. It's an old Evangelical Anglican church at Oxford, and just that student retreat center on the Devon Coast, Lee Abbey. But I didn't stop there. I thought of after that I worked in New York on Wall Street for about three years, and I began to think about a couple of churches I went to and life group that I was in that was so helpful. I think about back during my takeover years back in Australia, growing up in the family media business. And obviously for more on that, it's in other blogs, podcasts, and on the website. But suffice it to say it was very challenging.
I think about just a circle of friends, some, my age, some older that really came onside me, prayed with me, and incredibly valuable. And I think about the church I'm involved in now in Annapolis, Bay Area Community church where I'm an elder and the group of friends I have there. So that's just one strand, a faith strand. I went there during that drive, all these different elements throughout my life. And I did the same thing about my family. I did the same thing about work. So just going through every area of your life that you can think of and one thought leads to another, it can make you very grateful. I was thinking about not just what we do on the podcast, but some of the things that I was involved in in both the school, I was on the board of an [inaudible 00:23:46] Christian School, and we would work on governance and a strategic plan. I was heavily involved in both, and governance and various other things. And being an elder at my church, Bay Area Community Church.
I went into some detail about being grateful to have an opportunity to use my gifts and abilities in organizations that I deeply cared about. And I felt grateful for the opportunity to serve, and use my abilities to help the organizations and ultimately people that I cared about. So that just gives you an illustration of how gratitude in all areas of your life, relationships, the skills and abilities you have, the people that have been so helpful to you, it can just fill you with gratitude and positivity, if you let your mind run in a positive way.
Gary Schneeberger:
And as always with these blog episodes Warwick, you've built them step by step by step. So what you just said, if you just let your mind lead you in a positive way, well the next point that you make in the blog is where the rubber will continue to meet the road. And that's this, commit to being grateful on a regular basis. So we've taken up until now what we've described as low-risk probes, small steps. Now is the chance to sort of make this a lifetime commitment. So why is commit to being grateful on a regular basis critical to what you're talking about in this blog?
Warwick Fairfax:
So think of it like diet and exercise. Exercising once a year doesn't do a whole lot of good. You've got to have a regular pattern. I think people would say ideally several times a week. And it's very much like gratitude. If you've got to find a system, and it might be difficult at first, I'd say every day find time to take at least a few minutes to be grateful. You don't have to do what I did for an hour. I just happened to be in the car. It was a beautiful drive back along Lake Michigan, when we were there in Northern Michigan during the summer. But we can find a few minutes to think of at least one thing or more that we're grateful for. And what you might find is, those few minutes might turn into longer. Maybe you've got a 40-minute commute to work every day.
So rather than just listening to a podcast, of course if it's this podcast, then by all means listen to a podcast. But let's say you've listened to a podcast, ideally this one, either on your way to work or on the way back. Okay, you've got another half of the journey to do something other than listen to music, podcasting or what have you. And that's 40 minutes you can think of things you're grateful for. You are in the car, you have to be in the car. It is the way it is. So there's usually some time that we have during the day that we can allocate to being grateful.
And again, don't feel like you've got to start out with 40 minutes, the length of your commute. It can be just one or two things, but being regular and consistent with being grateful is very helpful. Because when you do that, you'll find that your attitude to life will begin to change. You'll be more positive. You'll look at life being the glass half full, not half empty. So it's a discipline. It's something that you've got to do every day, at least in some case you can't just think, "Okay, I was grateful three months ago." It's got to be on a regular basis. Find a way to do it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Well, and I'm going to share my way to do it that I found, and this is a gratitude journal, and it's a three-year gratitude journal, which is cool because it has three years of dates. You go through it, and you just write at the end of the day, it's one line a day it says here, I usually write longer than that. That's just me. But it allows me to go through, review the day I've just lived and find things that I'm grateful for. So I'm just going to rip this open right now and see, "Oh, June 15th, there we go." And this is funny, and this is a good one. Look at that. Thank you lord. June 15th of this year, 2025, I wrote this, the Father's Day gift Kelly, my wife, bought me is divine, a necklace with Heather's, Alissa's and Hunter's my kids, birthstones.
And then a great time with the McKissick's, that's Kelly's family, and the Resch's, that's also Kelly's family, at our house tonight. So it was just, that was what happened on that day. And before I go to bed, I pull this out, I write this down. But here's another point I want to make about doing this every day, because there's an important, when you every night stop and say, "Here's what I'm grateful for." Not everything that happened in your day that day is something you're grateful for. You're sifting through it and you're pointing out what you're grateful for. And I want to specifically go to this one, April 3rd of this year, just to show how this can work. Well, here's my entry of what I'm grateful for on April 3rd, to show that things that are great that you are grateful for and things that can be painful, can happen on the same day. But what do you lean into?
So here's what I wrote on the 3rd of April this year, 2025. Laura, my stepmother died today. So glad I got to talk to her yesterday. And then after that comes this. We also celebrated Hunter, my son's 25th birthday, smiley face. That's one of those situations where something really traumatic happens, but you can find something to be grateful for in the context of that. I got to talk to my stepmom the day before she passed away, and then we got to celebrate my son's birthday that same day. So it's not that when you talk about being grateful, Warwick, it's not that you're saying you have to be grateful, or you should be grateful, or you're going to be grateful for everything that happens. It's finding those things that you can be grateful for in the context of whatever happens, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Boy, that's so well said, and that's such a good example, both of them. But obviously losing your stepmother, that's a tragedy. That's just a huge thing to deal with. But obviously there's grieving, there's mourning, but there's also being thankful for the person that she was, and what she meant to you in your life. Even on her worst days, you, Gary found a way to be grateful. Doesn't mean there wasn't grieving and pain, of course, I'm sure it was an excruciating day. But yet you wanted amidst all the pain and devastation you want to think of, well, what's something that I can be grateful for about my stepmom? And be grateful for Hunter's 25th birthday? So it's an excellent example, and I think what that is really saying, and I think it's worth noting, there are different ways of doing it, but I think we should really consider what Gary is doing in which he has a gratitude journal.
And the advantage of writing it down, is that you can look back at previous days, like you just did, June 15, April 3rd. And it doesn't mean you have to do that every day. Thinking of something you're grateful for every day, we believe is very helpful. But by writing it down, it's like there's been a lot of positive things that have happened this year. Who knew? Now, would you remember what happened on February 4th if you didn't look it up, what you're grateful for? Probably not. But by having it there, you could say, "Well, I wonder what happened." It would remind you maybe something positive happened. Gary's looking it up right now.
Gary Schneeberger:
I am.
Warwick Fairfax:
I just picked a random date.
Gary Schneeberger:
Keep talking for a second, Warwick, I've got to find it here really quickly. I have to get my February 24th. There we go. February 4th. February 4th, February 10th, February 4th. Where are you? February 4th. All right, here we go. What am I grateful for on February 4th? The Fantastic Four trailer, the movie for The Fantastic Four, the Fantastic Fourth trailer dropped today. That's what happened on February 4th, I was grateful for.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, if you don't know, Gary's a big fan of superheroes, and I certainly like it too. And so Fantastic Four, it's a fun movie. And yeah, it makes sense that you're grateful for that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, it was my favorite comic book as a kid. So to see that on the big screen done right was great. So that was perfect, thank you for picking that date. That reminds me now.
Warwick Fairfax:
So yeah, I don't do it quite as in an organized fashion, but I think we could all learn from Gary. For me, one of the things I do every evening is before I go to sleep, I have a time of prayer. Typically, in the evening, I have bible study, reflection, some people will do it in the morning, but I do it in the evenings. But as I'm about to go to sleep, in fact, my head's on the pillow at this point, I start doing some scripture memory. I just have done this for a number of years. I've got a set scriptures that I go through, but then I also, in addition to prayer, do some thoughts of being thankful.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. All right, that was point five, folks. Here is point six. Point six is this. Find a place where being grateful is easier. And Warwick's indicated a couple of times that he's talked about his sometimes on drive, sometimes when you have a little solitude, you can do it. So Warwick, what's the importance of this point in the blog?
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's say you're in rush hour traffic, or you're on a freeway and there's an accident that's going to keep you stuck for about two hours, or you've missed your flight at the airport and the airport is shutting down. That could be a time when you want to think of how I can be grateful for being stuck in the airport for three hours, but it's better than the doom loop of negativity. But in terms of a normal rhythm of being grateful, let's make it easy for ourselves. And so find a place where you can be grateful. It could be a walk in the woods, maybe it's a walk in the neighborhood. If you have a nice drive to work, which is probably not too many people, then great. It could be in a museum. It could be just in the ambiance of your favorite coffee shop. Maybe there's somewhere you go for a few minutes, or you take a break at lunch or what have you and you love the smells, the sounds in that place.
Think of a place where being grateful is easier, and then spend a few minutes, or maybe it's 15, 20 minutes, however long you have. But the right place can make being grateful easier. If you are taking a walk in the woods, which we did a lot of, I did certainly when we were in Northern Michigan, if it's just me, which often I'll be walking with family or my wife, but sometimes it's just me. I'll have music on, I'll have my AirPods in and I'll be listening to, sometimes it'll be worship music, sometimes it'll be classical music. And listening to your favorite, for instance, piece of classical music as you're walking through the woods, now you're really primed to be grateful. You just ease back. You're in the mood at that point to be grateful. So find a way and a place that makes being grateful easier.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, folks, we're about to hit the last point of how you tap into the life-changing power of gratitude, Warwick's blog. Here's the last point, and really Warwick, this could be the last point of pretty much everything we talk about beyond the crucible, as you're walking out your life of significance, as you're trying to bounce back from your crucible. And the last point is this, don't give up, because it's not going to be easy. Talk about why that is important, why that ability to keep at it, to not giving up, why that is so critical in this particular instance when it comes to being grateful.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's go back to that analogy of exercise. You've just run for the first time in years, or you've gone on an exercise bike, or whatever it happens to be, and it feels like it's almost killed you. It's like, "I can't believe that, and I'm not doing that again. That's just too hard. I mean, I'm so out of shape and oh my gosh, after five minutes I collapsed. I mean, it was awful." And I get that. But with exercise, do it a few times a week and you find, "Okay, it was still difficult, but it went from almost impossible to merely difficult." Then maybe goes to painful. Then it goes to, "It wasn't too bad. And okay, I can do this." It might take you months to get there, but step at a time. And so really with being grateful, think of it as, don't give up. It's easy to be negative, but what you've got to think of is, what's one thing that I've been grateful for?
It may not be easy, but what's one thing? Just start small and then think, "Okay." And if you have to kind of make it a routine, think of, "Okay, several times a week, I'm going to set aside a time where I'm going to be grateful." And often if it's a commute to work, then you know you're going to be in the car or the train or what have you, and set aside at least part of that time to be grateful. Find a time and a place where you're going to do this. And ideally, as Gary has said, document it, write it down, make a note in your phone, or there's different ways of doing it. But it might be hard at first. You start off with one thing, one person you can be grateful for and then expand that. But you've got to do it regularly. You've got to do it often and don't give up. It will get easier if you keep up. It will get easier if you keep doing it.
Gary Schneeberger:
And here's a good time to do it. This is another quote from the Little Book of Gratitude. I'll do one more quote. This is Ralph Waldo Emerson said this, Warwick. He said, "I awoke this morning with devout Thanksgiving." Love that phrase, devout Thanksgiving, for my friends, the old and the new. Maybe it's the morning. There's an example. He wakes up in the morning and he's grateful for his friends. That could be something just simple, a simple way to start. And we have finished, speaking of starting, we have finished this episode of Beyond the Crucible about Warwick's blog. But before we absolutely finish, we finished going through all the points. I need to ask Warwick an important question, because we've covered a lot of ground here. So Warwick, before we let folks go, what's the one takeaway, the one truth you hope that everybody walks away with from our discussion about your blog on gratitude?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's natural to think of everything that is going wrong in life, that has gone wrong and will go wrong. And it's normal for many, if not most of us. It's not just think of one thing. It may be not easy to think of more than one thing that you're grateful for. It is very easy to think of many, many things that we're not grateful for, that we're angry and bitter, if not maybe even depressed about. It's very easy, you just let your mind go. Or you could spend 40 minutes in a heartbeat about things that you're angry and that you're grumbling about. We don't need to give lessons on that. It's very, very easy to do. And that's our brains naturally do that. And so while it's natural and understandable, clearly it's not helpful. You want to bounce back from your worst day, your crucible to a more fulfilling life, a life of significance, that doesn't happen if you're endlessly weighed down by this doom loop of negativity. It's understandable, but it's not helpful.
So one of the things we say often at Beyond the Crucible, is life is about choices. We need to make a choice. We've said so many times, it might be your worst day, and you're feeling so bad about yourself, or angry about what was done to you, and you don't want to get out of bed. You've got to make a choice to get out of bed and take one positive step forward. We say that in so many different episodes. This is the same way of thinking. We have to make a choice. We need to make a choice to stop the endless cycle of dwelling on disappointments, and the endless cycle of being angry about people who have let us down or betrayed you. We've talked elsewhere extensively about forgiveness. That's one way of stopping that doom loop of just saying, "I will choose to forgive."
That's at least one helpful step to try to stop the endless doom loop of negativity, and anger, and resentment of people that have let you down or hurt you. So you've got to make a choice that I will refuse to keep dwelling on the negativity. Doesn't mean I condone the bad things that were done to me, or the poor choices maybe my boss or others at work have made. But you make a choice not to dwell on the disappointment and the negativity. And then we need to shift. We need to pause. Seek the Lord or whoever you believe is up there, the creator, to just clear your mind, clean the slate, clean the canvas, and begin to think of what we're grateful for. Think of one thing. And that gratefulness needs to be done in a disciplined, regular way like we would take exercise.
If you do that, eventually your disposition in life will shift from being more negative to being more positive. You start with one thing, expand from there, and find a time and a place to do it on a regular basis. Your outlook on life will change. And I think you'll find that not just your outlook on life will change, but your ability to move forward from your worst day to a more fulfilling life and crucible to a life of significance. The pace will quicken. It will get easier to where you want to get to a more fulfilling life, a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good place to end our discussion portion of this. As we always do though, folks, Warwick has come up with, and it's interesting, I didn't realize this when I first read the blog, I always say reflection questions at the end of the blog. And these aren't questions. This time Warwick has written some reflection statements, and I'm going to read them to you so that you can reflect on them on this subject. How to tap into the life-changing power of gratitude, which is Warwick's latest blog at Beyondthecrucible.com. First one is this, stop dwelling on anger and negative emotions. Take time to pray and meditate to clear your mind, your heart, and your soul from these thoughts that are pulling you down. Thought number one for reflection.
The second point of reflection is this. Start thinking of people and things you're grateful for. The list might feel small at first, but dig deep and expand the list as time goes on. His last point in the blog was don't give up. Don't give up if you're going through this reflection. Point number two, keep pressing through because it'll come. And then the third reflection point is this. Find the time and a place to be grateful regularly and be disciplined about it. Being grateful will get easier the more it becomes a new ingrained habit and discipline.
And that folks, I'm grateful for the fact that that has wrapped another, I believe, very insightful and inspiration packed episode of the Beyond the Crucible podcast. So until the next time we're together, please remember that Warwick and I know that your crucibles are hard, they're difficult. There are things that you're maybe not grateful for, that you're certainly not grateful for, at least 360 not grateful for. But we also know they're not the end of your story. And that if you learn the lessons from them, those things that you can be grateful for within them, and you apply them moving forward, the destination that you will be led on, the destination you will walk, the path you'll travel will be one that will end in the greatest place you can be, and that is in a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit Beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Life is not easy. Left to their own devices, our minds tend to drift to everything that has gone wrong and is going wrong in our lives. We think of people who have hurt us and let us down. How could they do that to us?
We think of our career that might not be where we want it to be, or a job we have lost. We think of health challenges or loved ones who have passed away. Life seems to be so unfair. As we reflect on everything that has gone wrong in our lives, and the tumult, division and brokenness in the world, it is easy to get frustrated, angry and even depressed.
But how does this help us bounce back from our worst day, our crucible? It doesn’t. To move forward in our lives, to in some way use the brokenness we feel to help others and live a life of significance, we need to think differently. We need to in some sense rewire our brain and be more disciplined about what we let our mind dwell on. Thinking about all the hurts we feel and see around us rarely serves us.
So what is the alternative? We need to train our brains, indeed our hearts and our souls, to dwell on gratitude. This will fill us with joy and the energy to move past our cruciblers and into a life of significance. Some might say they have so much pain and tragedy in their lives that it is impossible to be grateful. That is understandable. But what is remarkable is that almost every guest on our podcast, Beyond The Crucible, many of whom have gone through incredibly painful setbacks and tragedies, have found a way to be grateful. That sense of gratitude has helped to chart the way forward and given them energy and perspective to not only keep going, but to do so with joy.
Here are some thoughts about how to be grateful.
1. Pause the anger and grievance cycle. For people of faith, that would mean praying to God to help you pause these negative feelings. You know deep down that this is not serving you or the people you love. For some it will mean being still, meditating and clearing your mind of all thoughts, certainly negative ones.
2. Think of at least one thing you are grateful for. At first this might seem almost impossible. But if we examine our lives deeply enough, we can almost always think of at least one thing. Perhaps it was a friend in school or a teacher; maybe a boss or co-worker. Maybe we had some artistic or athletic abilities that we enjoyed or continue to enjoy. Maybe it is broader, such as being thankful for having God in our lives, or just being alive.
3. Create categories of things and people that you are grateful for. Think of family; our parents, spouse or partner, kids and siblings. Think of friends, co-workers. Think of past relationships from different stages and places in your life. Think of the gifts and abilities that you have and the ability to use them to help others. Think of the beauty of nature. Think of things you have accomplished.
4. Now spend time in each of these categories and go into some detail. For instance, you can think of friends in elementary, middle and high school and then college. Think of friends in the different places you have lived and in your neighborhood. Name each of these friends and be specific about why you are grateful for them and the impact they had in your life. Go through this detailed process of being grateful for specific people and specific things in each area of your life; family, work, hobbies and activities.
5. Commit to being grateful on a regular basis. Think of being grateful like you would following a diet or exercise program. Exercising one day a year or even one day a month does not do much good. It needs to be regular, ideally every day. So every day, find time to take at least a few minutes to be grateful. At first this might be difficult. But after a while, like starting a flywheel, it will get easier. You might even find a few minutes turning into thirty minutes or even an hour.
6. Find a place where being grateful is easier. A place that will stimulate your gratitude muscles. It could be a walk in the woods or in the park. It could be in a museum or in the ambience of your favorite coffee shop with all the sights, smells and sounds that you have come to love there.
7. Don’t give up. At first, being grateful may not be easy. Especially amid the devastation of a crucible that may feel almost impossible. But start small and then go from there, and you may well find that your list of what you are grateful grows.
It is easy to be angry and bitter and keep a record of every grievance and every hurt we have. That will not help us to move forward. It will tend to keep us mired in our worst day. That is not what we want. We need to stop ruminating on all the pain and disappointment we have been through, whether that has been caused by others or whether we had a part in it. We need to forgive, and if something needs to be done or said then do that.
But endlessly dwelling on our hurts and grievances is not productive. It will tend to corrode our soul. Remember, bitter and angry people tend to hurt others, often those we love the most. Is that who we want to be?
Let’s be people of gratitude and thankfulness not grievance, anger, envy and bitterness.
Reflection
Stop dwelling on anger and negative emotions. Take time to pray and meditate to clear your mind, your heart and your soul from these thoughts that are pulling you down.
Start thinking of people and things you are grateful for. The list might feel small at first, but dig deep to expand the list as time goes on.
Find a time and a place to be grateful regularly. Be disciplined. Being grateful will get easier the more it becomes a new ingrained habit and discipline.
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
Applying the Actionable Truths 7: Fellow Travelers
People you can trust. Who don’t have hidden agendas. Who are truly on the same page. That’s who you need to look for when you are building a team of fellow travelers, which we discuss this week on the seventh episode of our series within the show on the Beyond the Crucible Roadmap.
How do you find them? As we say here, you can learn a lot from Frodo’s companions in THE LORD OF THE RINGS trilogy.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
So what I realized later, that I didn't focus enough on hiring people who I trusted and had integrity, and I didn't focus enough on making sure there were no hidden agendas and that we're truly on the same page.
Gary Schneeberger:
People you can trust who don't have hidden agendas, who are on the same page truly as you are, that's who you need to look for when building a team of fellow travelers, which is what we discussed this week on the seventh episode of our series within the show on the Beyond the Crucible roadmap.
How do you find them? You can learn a lot from Frodo's companions in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Welcome, friends, to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. And this is an episode that it's been a while, Warwick, since we've done an episode like this, so I'm excited to get back to talking about this. And this is our Beyond the Crucible roadmap where we unpack the actionable truths of the brand. It will level set me and Warwick to talk about it, because it's been a while since we've done it, and we'll explain why.
So this is our refreshed way. It's not entirely new, but it is refreshed. It is laser focused of how we help you get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity. And it's what we've come to call, as I've said, our Beyond the Crucible roadmap. We describe it this way, and I'm going to read directly from the paper I have in front of me here, and that is, "This is how we help people turn their worst day into their greatest opportunity. We provide the essential actionable truths to inspire, hope, enable, and equip them to write their own life affirming story. The roadmap has been built from our proprietary statistically valid research into how people experience crucibles, and what we've learned from our experience and the experiences of our podcast guests for what it takes to turn trial into triumph, what it takes to move beyond those crucibles."
And the most revolutionary news for us in all of this process is that in analyzing the roadmap, we identified what we're calling the actionable truths of the brand. To pass these life-changing truths along to you, our listeners and viewers this year, we have been doing something since the start of the year, another one of these things that we call, The Series Within the Show. So we have been spending 2025, and we're going to continue spending 2025 going through each of these 10 actionable truths, one per month, and exploring ways that they can help you make your way along the roadmap.
So Warwick, it's been a minute, as they say, since we've been here on these actionable truths, and that's because we took some time off from this part of the show to do our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles. But we're back now to finish our exploration of these actionable truths for the rest of 2025. And as I do in every one of these episodes, I want to ask you a couple questions up front. First one is this, to level set us for our discussion, on the seventh of these truths, let me ask you, why actionable truths? Why that phrase? What do we mean by that?
Warwick Fairfax:
So Beyond the Crucible, our focus is on helping people get beyond their worst day, which we often call the bottom of the pit, to a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And so what we have now is what we're calling Beyond the Crucible roadmap, how you go from trial your crucible to triumph for a life of significance. We've found that there are 10 actionable truths that are catalysts in helping you move along the journey from your worst day to where you're living your life-affirming vision. In other words, you're triumphing and living a life of significance.
So it's interesting, these actionable truths have always been implicit in the brand. They're actually chapters in the book, Crucible Leadership. We've now crystallized them as actionable truths that really point the way to going from your worst day to a life and significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And I've never really thought about it as deeply as I have thought about it since we've come back to it now. We call this the Beyond the Crucible roadmap, because it truly is, it's a map that takes you from your crucible to your life of significance. Those are the two ends that we're going to be talking about, two ends of the actionable truths that we're going to be talking about.
But explain, Warwick, to everybody, how these truths, these things that we're going to talk about, how do they help you go from setback to significance? How do they help you along this roadmap that we're talking about?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary, these actionable truths we view as accelerators or enablers to help us go from a crucible or trial to a life of significance or where we're triumphing. And I think you could make the case that without these actionable truths, you cannot go from trial to triumph. You'd be stuck in the pit of despair, your worst day. So you can think of them as fuel or I guess, what is it, nitrous oxide and Fast & Furious.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Yes. Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, you can have the greatest turbocharged car you can imagine, but without fuel it's going nowhere.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so these actionable truths, the fuel, their guideposts, way points, the kind of enablers for you to get out of your pit, your worst day, to where you're feeling like you're really triumphing and living a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
And before we move on to the truth that we're going to talk about today, which is Truth Number Seven, I want to make sure that we give folks a little bit of a refresher course, maybe give ourselves a little bit of a refresher course of where we've been, what have been the paths that we've walked along in this discussion. So this is Truth Number Seven. Can you quickly, for everybody, just run through one through six so we know how we got here, and then we can start talking about where we are now?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So when you're in the pit in your worst day, the first thing is understanding your crucibles. We say that your crucible didn't happen to you, it happened for you. Your worst day is not the end of the story, but the launching point for life giving you story. So it's try to reframe your crucible saying, "Okay, this may have felt like the worst day of my life, but is there some way I can use this crucible to serve me instead of reframing it?"
And as part of that, you go to the next step, which is self-reflection. Reflecting on your crucible can reveal important insights about yourself, your strengths, weaknesses, even vulnerabilities that you can use to forgive yourself, forgive others, and bounce forward. So self-reflection is critical, reflecting on what happened, why did it happen, what mistakes did I make, what can I learn from what happened to me? Self-reflection done right, can be a powerful tool to enable us to move forward. And then we get to the third step, which is authenticity. To move beyond your crucible, you must embrace your authentic self. And it's time to be true to who you really are, not who others want you to be.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's often easy to hide behind a mask of inauthenticity to be who you're not. And so part of having courage to bounce back from your worst day is saying, "I'm going to be who I am. I'm not going to put on a mask. I'm not going to try to be who others want me to be. I'm going to be me." And then another key factor, step number four is faith. Believing in something beyond yourself that serves as the immovable anchor for your soul, no matter what's happening around you. Now, faith may mean different things to different people. For me and indeed for Gary, it's our faith in Christ, but it might be faith in God in a more general sense or some other philosophical construct, but whatever it is, I think we're all people that are grounded in a belief system of some sort.
So you've got to dig down deep and to say to yourself or ask yourself, "What is it that I believe? How do I feel like the world is formed? What do I feel are my deepest, most innermost convictions?" To be able to move forward beyond your crucible, you really got to know what is it you believe. So that step is critical.
And then we get to the next step, step five, character. And we define character as how you live out your faith in the real world. Character is your belief system and action. So it's fine to say you have certain belief systems, but it's not very helpful or meaningful if you don't live them out. None of this will be perfect, but day-to-day on average, how is it that you're living your belief system out? How does it work itself out in your world?
And then the next step, step six, is vision. And we call that a sacred calling that summons you to a mission beyond yourself. No matter what the size of your vision, it has meaning and matters. I'd say pretty much every guest we've had on the podcast are people of vision, and I'd say very often that vision has come out of their worst day. They're crucible. And so when we say that your worst day didn't happen to you, it happened for you, the for is often having a vision to help people that maybe suffered the crucibles you suffered, or maybe to help them avoid what you went through, to learn the lessons, to make lives easier for others.
So vision is also a critical component of moving beyond your crucible, because when you get up in the morning and you're thinking, okay, why am I getting up? As Margie Warrell says, when she talks about courage, she uses this phrase, for the sake of what? Which I think is an incredible phrase.
And so in our construct, I'd say, so to get out of bed in the morning for the sake of what? Why? What's the point? Vision gives you a reason to get out of bed, because I've got people I want to help. I've got a difference I want to make I want to impact the world. So vision is another critical step in moving beyond your crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting, it's funny that I tapped into this idea of it's a roadmap, because what you just ran through, the six steps that we've gone so far, and we're going to go to step seven today, is like being on the highway and you see the road sign on the side of the road that says, "I'm in Kenosha, Wisconsin. I'm driving to Annapolis, Maryland." And it says 987 miles or whatever it is. That's the start. That's your crucible. You got a long way to go.
But as you get closer to your destination on the highway, it gets closer. The miles start coming down. And I think that's what happens as we go through this road map and these actionable truths, each one brings us a little bit closer to our final destination. That's fair, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And life is never easy, but in some sense it does make life easier in that one of the hardest things to deal with is when you have a sense of depression, melancholy, and obviously there's clinical depression, but there's degrees of feeling down. If you feel down in a sense of, what's the point, and there's no hope, it's really hard to keep moving forward. But when you feel like there's hope, you feel like you have a vision, you know what you believe, you're living out what you believe to the best degree possible, then there's a sense of hope, there's a sense of excitement as you get up in the morning.
And as you go to sleep in the evening, you start to feel gratitude. "Gosh, that wasn't an easy day, but it was a good day. I made progress." Even if it was a small baby step, I made progress. Maybe it had a small impact on one person. Maybe it was your spouse, partner, your kids, parents, friends. It's like, "Well, I think I did something right today. Maybe I did a few things wrong, but there was at least something I got right." And it gives you hope to keep moving forward. So yeah, these steps are very helpful. They give you hope. Life's about hope. Hope will fuel you to really get beyond your crucible and to live your best life, to live a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, and speaking of hope and help to live your best life, to get to a life of significance, our actionable truth today that we're going to unpack is fellow travelers. It's a favorite phrase of Warwick's to talk about, and he'll explain why, what they are and why it's a favorite phrase of his, but it's the first step, this step seven, this actionable truth seven is the first step in following out the vision that he talked about from step six, from actionable truth six of vision, the first step in pursuing that vision is in putting together a team of what Warwick has called fellow travelers.
So Warwick, how would you define, for our listeners and viewers, fellow travelers, and why are they critical? Why are they a critical seven step after a crucible to begin the journey of recovering from a crucible? Or I should say not begin, but continue the journey, because now we're getting down the road, to use my analogy, why are they critical, fellow travelers, to overcoming a crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's great to have the elements of a vision, but to fully flesh that vision out, we're going to need help. And we'll also need help to begin to make that vision a reality. So we've coined this phrase for people that come alongside us, fellow travelers, and there are different types. We say that fellow travelers can provide words of encouragement or advice, and that's critical. And there are also fellow travelers that might be members of our team and our organization or mission, irrespective of how big or small that may be in terms of numbers of people.
So bouncing back from our worst to our crucible, it's not easy. And to live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others is also not easy. But one of the decisions we have to make is, do we want help? And often in the days and months after our worst day, when in the pit of despair, we feel like this leper, to coin that biblical phrase. And it's like, "Leave me alone." You're in your room. You're in your apartment or house. People ring the doorbell. You don't answer. They call you. You don't answer. You just don't want to see anybody. You feel so bad about yourself, either because of what you've done or what was done to you. You just feel like you're either not worthy of help or nobody can help you, or, "I'll figure it out myself." There can be a variety of different reactions depending on who we are in the circumstances.
But you've got to make a decision that we all need help. We cannot live life alone. And so we're going to need help in those days and months after the crucible. People who can console us, encourage us, just to help us get out of bed in the morning. And once we begin to have the elements of a vision, we're also going to need help from other people. So it'll be critical in having people to help us frame out the vision. We might have a kernel, an ember of a vision, but other people will help mold that vision into something bigger. And these other fellow travelers, they will probably have gifts and abilities that we don't have that will help make our vision a reality.
So fellow travelers, it's really critical. I think it's hard to believe that you can truly get from your worst day to a life of significance without help, without fellow travelers. Life is not meant to be lived alone. And that is certainly true in terms of getting out of your worst day. You've got to have help, and they come in different forms, whether it's encouraging, consoling, helping you build your vision. You got to be willing to say, "I can't do it all. I do need help." That doesn't make me weak. I'd say the strong person asks for help. The weak person says, "I can do it all and I don't need help." So be the strong, courageous person and say, "I know I can't do it all. I need help." And be willing to let others help, because you may well find there are people who have been dying to help you if only you would let them in, if only you would say yes.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And this is the point in every one of these episodes where I pull out my favorite dictionary, which I call Webster's 1828, the very first dictionary of Noah Webster. And as you might expect, folks, Noah Webster does not have a definition for the phrase, fellow travelers. What he does have in this 1828 dictionary is fellow commoners, fellow prisoners, fellow peers, fellow... There's a lot of fellow things that he has in here. But the one that I think sticks out for me that speaks to this idea of fellow travelers, is fellow helper. That's one of the definitions here.
And it's one who conquers or aids in the same business, one who conquers or aids in the same business. That really seems to speak to what you're talking about, right? You're aiding someone and you're pursuing the same business/vision that they're pursuing, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. We definitely want to succeed in our vision. We want to conquer, but if we're smart, we'll want people to help aid us in the making of that vision, and the making of that vision a reality. We don't get to conquer without help. We do need people to aid us. It's just fundamentally true.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. All right. So now there are three stages in our research, and our research is both qualitative and quantitative. Three stages that our research have shown us people experience in this section of the roadmap. The first one is experimenting with new conditions (trials, and first failures.) So how do fellow travelers work? Help us, as we go through this stage.
Warwick Fairfax:
So we might have the kernel of a vision, but it can be overwhelming to bring that vision a reality, or even just to figure it out. It's like, "Well, I have an idea, but gosh, what does that mean and who would I serve and what does that really look like?" Maybe it's like a painting. You've got a few rough pencil marks on a canvas, and there's a vague idea of what it is, but it's not a fully fleshed out painting with colors and trees and landscape and water, is just a few pencil sketches. So fellow travelers can help us flesh out the vision.
And one of the ways that they help us do that is, you take small tests, small trials, test markers as they say, and product marketing. Because that way you see if it has legs. And you might find, gosh, I was thinking about this year for the vision or maybe this market or this range of people that could be served, but I never thought about these other people or this other way of doing it.
So test marketing or just trialing a vision could be very helpful. Well, we need fellow travelers to both help us flesh out the vision, help us figure out how to trial it. And these small steps and experiments, as I mentioned, they can help refine the vision to one that has a much greater chance of success. So experimenting, being willing to trial with a vision's critical, and you've got to have help doing that. You've got to have people on your team. You might have other companies, other nonprofits who will be happy to help you or partner with you, maybe doing different things. So you've got to be willing to partner with people both within your organization and your team and outside.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. The second area that our research tells us people go through as they're proceeding through the roadmap is growth and new skills hat's preparing for major change. What are the benefits of fellow travelers in this part of the roadmap?
Warwick Fairfax:
So fleshing out our vision is one thing, but we need to know what skills and capabilities we need on our team. And one way of doing that is having fellow travelers that can help us understand what are our skills. Maybe we have skills that we don't recognize.
Maybe we think we have skills in areas that we really don't. Hopefully they can lovelingly tell us, "You're really good at this area that you don't realize and you're not so good at this area that you think you're pretty hot stuff. So sorry about that." A little dose of reality can be helpful.
But secondly, if we're smart, we'll have people around us that will have skills and abilities that we don't have that can compliment us, that will help take the vision to a whole new level. So we need fellow travelers who are objective, who can have skills and abilities that we don't have, and who can really compliment the skills and abilities that we have.
Gary Schneeberger:
So folks, I want you to remember what Warrick has talked about in these first two areas, because later on, here's a teaser alert. I haven't told you what I'm going to talk about yet either, Warrick. I have a pretty good example of a very popular story we all know in which fellow travelers are essential to it. So put a pin in this and we'll come back to that.
The third stage here, Warwick, is preparing for big change. That's also grand trial revelation and insight. Let's talk a little bit about how fellow travelers help us at this part of the roadmap.
Warwick Fairfax:
So as our vision and organization, it grows and expand, the type of help we may need may change. And so we need fellow travelers who can advise us. Okay, maybe we started with a ten-person nonprofit or company, maybe we're now at 100 or 150. So what do we do now? We need advice. And that advice can be internal, it can be external, and it may be that our role within that organization may change.
We may find, depending on the size of the organization, that we need to bring in somebody from the outside to be a general manager or CEO, or maybe just somebody to help with the books, or maybe we're a visionary, but we're not too great about keeping the trains running on time. Somebody that can just perform some executive role of making sure that things get done when they should be done. So there's different levels of help, depending on where you are in the size of your organization. And you might find that if the organization grows to a certain level, that maybe the contribution you're bringing was great, but maybe there's somebody else that could take the vision to the next level. Maybe somebody else needs to be CEO. Maybe somebody else needs to take control of the whole organization, be it nonprofit or for-profit.
You've got to be willing to hand the reins of it, because if the whole idea is to help people, be it for-profit or nonprofit, again, back to what Margie Warrell says, "For the sake of what?" If it's truly about for the sake of impacting the world in some sense, then it should not be about us. You've got to separate your identity from the mission, from the organization. So you've always got to be willing to say, "Well, this isn't about me." And if it's not about me, if somebody else can do a better job, because it's at a level where I can't do it, or maybe other things have come up in life that have impacted your ability to be as involved as you'd like to, you've got to be willing to hand over to other people who maybe they were your fellow travelers and maybe they'll be leading it one day. So yeah, you always need help and you've got to be willing to have your fellow travelers give you advice, and it's not always easy.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting, because when we were developing these, there were some that got close to making the cut for actionable truths, but didn't. And humility is a big one of that. What you're talking about right there is humility. It's critically important to bouncing back from a crucible. It's critically important to walking out your life as significance. It's not technically an actionable truth, but it's absolutely wound in what you just talked about, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, if you want the best and the brightest, if you will, to be your fellow travelers, humility will help. If you're arrogant, "Hey, I know everything. I don't need help." That will pretty much ensure that you won't get the right kind of fellow travelers. What you don't want is people signing up for a paycheck saying, "I'm going to be a yes man, a yes woman. Whatever you want to hear, boss, you tell me." Gosh, what you just said, that vision, that idea, it was just genius. It was just brilliant, fabulous. I mean, I just don't really think you need that. So we want people that will tell us the truth. So humility is critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So I won't say here, that is the most insightful comments you've ever made on the podcast. I won't do that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Thank you.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good. Good. I'm glad. Now we're going to switch, and this is a good time to switch to this part. It's my favorite part of these episodes, folks, and that's where we talk about who I like to call Patient Zero, because he's the founder of Beyond the Crucible, and that's our host, Warwick Fairfax.
And just to talk about Warwick, about how he, in his journey from his setback to his life of significance, how he walked through whatever actionable truth we're talking about, and today that is on fellow travelers. So Warwick, talk a bit then about your experience with fellow travelers, especially during the takeover. The takeover, as we say.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, I think many of you who've been listening and watching the podcast know a bit about my background, but I grew up in a large family media business in Australia. It had newspapers, magazines, TV and radio stations. When I was growing up it was a massive organization, a $700 million 4,000 plus employee company. In 1987 after graduating from Harvard Business School, my father died early that year, and I launched a 2.25 billion takeover at the family company. I felt like the company was straying from the vision of the founder, my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax, and wasn't being well managed.
And so to launch this takeover and then manage the company, I knew I needed help, because when I launched this takeover, believe it or not, I was 26 years old. I made a lot of mistakes, but I wasn't stupid enough to say at 26, "I got this. I don't need any advisors. I know everything about finance and takeover law and managing large companies, and yeah, I'm good." I mean, so sometimes the task is so massive that it's really hard to tell yourself you don't need help.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's even with a degree from Harvard Business School, you still had that realization. So that says something.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, hopefully, I suppose. But unfortunately, I made a lot of mistakes and I didn't bring on the right kind of fellow travelers. So early on, in the months leading after the takeover, we had advice from a blue-chip merchant bank, which is a straight, in English-speak, for investment bank. And they said, "You know what, Warwick, the numbers don't add up. It's too risky. I know you're worried about hostile takeovers from corporate raiders and what have you, but if and when there's a hostile takeover, then gather the family round and it'll be easier."
Well, I didn't want to hear that advice, because it wasn't just, I was afraid of corporate raiders. I just felt like, as I said, the company was straying from the vision of the founder and it wasn't being well-run. So then I basically went to other advisors, I think of the last of the three Indiana Jones movies, at least the first three, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, and Harrison Ford who plays, as we all know, Indiana Jones. He's trying to find the Holy Grail and his dad's injured. And so there's two cups, one's all gold and the other is wooden. And so one cup might heal, his dad has been hurt, and the other cup will kill you basically.
And so if you don't choose well as some old might says, "You have chosen poorly." And if you choose well it says, "You have chosen well." In this case, I chose poorly. And so basically I ended up choosing advisors that had done some very large takeovers, but of questionable ethics, I guess you would say. And I wasn't really focused on that. I was focused on, well, they've done these huge deals. So I really chose poorly. I thought that, well, they're getting a significant fee. If everything goes well, then our interest will align, and they seem to be experts. And I just really made some poor decisions. And I guess really to crystallize it, I guess my biggest mistake was thinking that the most important thing when you hire people, is hire people with expertise.
That doesn't mean hire people who are clueless and who are idiots. I'm not advocating that. But just to say, all I need to do is hire the experts, hire people with expertise, that's the only criteria I need, or even that that's the most important criteria. No. So what I realized later that I didn't focus enough on hiring people who I trusted and had integrity, and I didn't focus enough on making sure there were no hidden agendas and that we're truly on the same page.
The more money, the more that there's a possibility, if not probability, that there could be hidden agendas. Nothing like money and power to motivate people to think in ways that may be not aligned with the organization or aligned with your goals or to have their own things they want to accomplish. That will tend to happen. So the more important that the mission is, to a degree, the bigger it is, but certainly the more important it is, the more impact and notoriety it can have. Then it's always important to work with people you trust and have integrity, but that trust and integrity will be tested severely the bigger the organization is, and certainly the bigger impact it can have. So people's own agendas and temptations can come along.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And here's the great thing about it, Warwick, and I know it's hard after you've gone through that to think there's any great thing about it, but here's the great thing about it, because we talk about this all the time at Beyond the Crucible, and that is, what happened there did not happen to you. You realized it happened for you. And the next question I want to ask you is,
What's your experience been with fellow travelers since then, especially with Beyond the Crucible? And I think what you're going to describe is, you learned some lessons from the first round of fellow travelers, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed. So after we had to file for bankruptcy three years later in 1990, I moved to the U.S. where my wife is from, and I was not in a good place. I was not clinically depressed, but I was like, "How could I been so dumb? I had a Harvard MBA." So what I didn't mention is that I graduated from Oxford University, and then did three years on Wall Street before I got my MBA from Harvard Business School. And I was just merciless with myself. I was like, "Gosh, I'm meant to be somewhat intelligent, how could I been so dumb? How could I made so many bad decisions and false assumptions like other members of my family who are involved in the family business that they wouldn't sell out into a takeover to a privatized company, controlled by me, who was 26." I mean, just a cataclysmically poor decision, using the wrong advisors.
So I was merciless with myself. My go-to psyche is, when things go wrong, I tend to blame myself, not other people. That was not an easy period in my life. I did have my wife, obviously the ultimate fellow traveler, wife, husband, or spouse. She was very helpful. It wasn't easy to help me in those days. I did have people of faith who came alongside me and prayed for me and tried to help. And gradually, I did move forward and I did begin to find the right kind of fellow travelers, and I found them in different places and different stages of my journey back from my worst day to ultimately getting beyond my crucible to living a life of significance. So in 2003, I began my journey to becoming a Certified International Coach Federation coach. I had fellow travelers who came alongside me in that journey, including a mentor coach, which is best practice as you're trying to figure out what it means to be a coach, how to do it well, have a coaching business.
Then I became a board member at my kid's school, a Christian school, Annapolis Area Christian School. And there were really great board members, and I became great friends with many of them, including the board president. And that was wonderful to lock arms together and really helping Annapolis Area Christian School prosper and move forward. And I also became an elder at my church, an evangelical non-denominational church area community church. And that's been an incredible joy as we try to serve people in Annapolis, Maryland, as well as around the world we have global partners all over the world, which is just incredible what the church has done. In both those organizations, Annapolis Area Christian School and Berry Community Church, I've been able to lock arms with fellow travelers who have a common heart and a common vision, who have expertise, but they have integrity. I trust them.
It's been an incredible joy. And now with Beyond the Crucible, I have a great team. They definitely have expertise, but they have more than expertise. They're a great team of fellow travelers. First of all, I trust them. They have integrity. They don't tell me what I want to hear. They tell me what they believe is true and what I don't always want to hear. It's not just, "Oh, yes, Warwick, that was great. And so, "Gee, Warwick, tell me what advice you want me to tell you, and I will tell you that. It just helps me to have the script in advance. You just tell me what you want me to say, and I'll say it to you," you know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
They're not like that, and they definitely don't have the skills and the abilities that I don't have. And what I find is an incredible blessing is that they're 100% committed to the vision of Beyond the Crucible.
What's amazing is, this whole podcast and blog and everything we do at Beyond the Crucible, it grew out of a book I wrote in 2022, I believe, Crucible Leadership. And the team we have is 100% committed to that vision. It grew out of that book and my life experience with growing up within a large family media business and finding my way back. So it's just amazing that they're really 100% committed to it. So I feel like it's not just my vision, I truly believe it's our vision. And I think that the team that we have, they feel the same way. It's incredible.
So having people on the team that I trust and have integrity that have different skills, they'll speak their truth and not always what I want to hear. I mean, it's a very, very different group of fellow travelers than before. I'm not thinking about, "Oh, I wonder what hidden agendas they have."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
I never think that, because to my knowledge, they don't have hidden agendas. I've seen no indications of it. They're all about what can we do to help Beyond the Crucible flourish, and help more people get beyond their worst day to lead lives of significance. They're all about that, which is an incredible blessing.
Gary Schneeberger:
Talking about the right kind of fellow travelers as you just did, got me thinking about something that we talk about at least every summer here on the show, and that's movies. And what is a great, I mean, it's a platinum example of finding the right fellow travelers and the value of them, and I'm just going to run through it quickly. It's The Lord of the Rings trilogy is all about fellow travelers. I'm going to give you just a few examples of what that looks like. So in the Fellowship of the Ring at the Council of Elrond in Rivendell, Frodo bravely volunteers to take the one ring to Mordor. Gandalf immediately steps forward and places a hand on Frodo's shoulder and says this, "I will help you bear this burden, Frodo Baggins, as long as it is yours to bear." That's a fellow traveler.
Here's another one from the same film series. It's also at the Council of Elrond in Rivendell. And after Frodo agrees to carry the ring, Aragorn stands and pledges himself to Frodo's protection. He says this, "If by life or death I can protect you, I will. You have my sword." It gives me chills to read stuff like that about fellow travelers.
Here's just one more of Frodo's fellow travelers, and that's Samwise Gamgee, his buddy who's with him throughout the whole series of films, all three films. In the Fellowship of the Ring, at the end of the Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo tries to depart without his fellow travelers to go alone across a river, because he's just worried about the power of the ring, corrupting his friends. Despite not being able to swim, Sam wades in after Frodo's boat and nearly drowns. And this is what he says to Sam after he gets there to talk to him, "I made a promise, Mr. Frodo, a promise. 'Don't you leave him, Samwise Gamgee.' And I don't mean to. I don't mean to."
I can't think of a better example in the fictional realm of fellow travelers all throughout all three films in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's such a good example. I mean, if ever there's somebody that needs help, it's Frodo. He's a hobbit. He's not of large stature. He is not particularly strong. He is the least likely to be a hero in some adventure, but he has a true heart, which is really his super power. And to have Gandalf, Aragorn, and Samwise wanting to be his fellow travelers, is amazing. They see something in him, just his heart, the purity of his heart, and they all want to help him.
And there's no way that Frodo could have accomplished what he did without help. You need fellow travelers. They clearly had skills that he did not have, and he had things that they didn't have. He had this purity of heart. None of the others could be anywhere close to the ring, because it would just corrupt their souls. And they recognize that. So each of them had a role to play. But it's a great example of we need fellow travelers. Frodo did, and we do too.
Gary Schneeberger:
Indeed. We've covered a lot of ground here, Warwick. As I always do at the end of these episodes on the Actionable Truths, what's the one key takeaway that you'd like to leave listeners and viewers with as we wrap this episode today?
Warwick Fairfax:
So in picking fellow travelers, expertise can be overrated. Doesn't mean it's not important, but when you pick fellow travelers, that should not be the first thing you're thinking of. And that sounds very counterintuitive. Surely the first thing you should be thinking of is, okay, what do they have to offer? What's their expertise? No. The first thing you should be thinking of is, can I trust them? Do they have integrity? Are they going to tell me what I want to hear, or what I need to hear? Where can I see evidence in their lives and their past organizations and their family with their kids, however it works. Where can I see evidence that I can trust them, that they have integrity? That's absolutely critical.
And of course, you want people who are experts in their field, and you want to make sure that they have skills and abilities that you don't have, and you absolutely want them to be 100% committed to the vision, that's critical. But picking the right fellow travelers, it all starts with trust. Can you trust them? Do they have integrity?
Gary Schneeberger:
I don't say it often in these episodes, but I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word's been spoken at a subject, and our host, Warwick Fairfax, just spoke it. This is, folks, the seventh actionable truth we will be discussing in depth this year.
Each month we'll take a look at a new one and how it is connected to the previous one, to build out the roadmap. And next time we will be discussing, come on, let's have a drum roll, Scott. Thank you. We'll be discussing perseverance.
So until the next time we're together, folks, please remember this; we want you to believe these truths that we talk about, but we also want you to act on them, because that's what's going to help you along the roadmap from trial to triumph. We'll see you next week.
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