We live in an almost unprecedented time of stress and anxiety with the global pandemic of the coronavirus. We don’t know how long this crisis will last, when there will be approved safe remedies to treat the virus or still less when there will be an approved vaccine. Many have been furloughed from work, unsure how long their businesses will be able to survive and how long they will have jobs, assuming they still have jobs.
Amid the fear and stress of the health and economic uncertainty, many are living and working from home; 24/7. There are short breaks to walk or go to the grocery store, but then it is back to the house packed with family; kids home from school, adult kids in some cases being at home, too. In times in which stress and anxiety are high and many of us are living and working in close quarters with each other, friction can and probably will happen. Tempers will fray, hurtful words will come out. As humans when we are under stress, we tend to take our frustrations out on those who are around us, in this case our family or those we live with. Such lashing out on those we care about or are around is understandable. Even in normal times, friction in families can happen.
How can we lessen or ideally avoid such friction in times of exceptional stress and anxiety? How can we have grace and tolerance for those around us? In time, we hope the current global pandemic will ease, and while life may be different in its aftermath, we hope we will be able to get out of the house more. Even when life becomes hopefully more normal, friction and stress can still happen. And that’s just at home, in our personal lives. Stress and anxiety – even absent a pandemic – is a reality in our workplaces, as well. Knowing how to lessen it or eliminate it through your leadership is key to leading effectively and with transparency and
Here are some tips to having more grace and tolerance with those around
1. Do an internal audit.
Recognize that you are under stress, that you are anxious. Acknowledge it and accept it. Don’t be angry at yourself or, worse, get angry at others. We can debate if there is anyone to blame for the spread of the coronavirus. Being in a state of perpetual fixation of who is to blame for what we are all going through, is not to going to help you or those you care about. The global pandemic is certainly not your family and friends’ fault. So, own your anxieties, fears and stress. Don’t lash out at others.
2. Admit your fears and anxieties to others.
It helps us for those closest to us (family and friends) to know what we are feeling. For those strong silent types (often men), who want to appear tough when inside they feel like quivering jellyfish, admit your fears to those who care for you. Chances are they are scared and uncertain, too. Such vulnerability, reduces hostility, increases understanding and actually brings you closer together.
3. Be flexible.
Some of us like our routines. We go to work each day, or perhaps we have a home office. We like getting tea or coffee from our favorite coffee shop on the way to work. We like going to the gym on our way to or way back from work. We like going out to eat at our favorite restaurant with friends. This has all stopped, and many of us are in close proximity to our families or roommates all the time, every day. That is a lot of togetherness. This is frustrating. But we need to accept the fact that our routines have been interrupted. We need to be open to change the way we do things. As someone who really likes his routine, and does not like changing it, I have found this to be a challenge. But I recognize my innate desire, perhaps need, for routine and try to take it a day at a time. Hopefully, working from home and being housebound will not be forever. It is just a season, albeit a season of uncertain length.
4. Have grace with yourself.
Accept the fact that you are going to feel stressful, uncertain and fearful in times of near universal anxiety, which at this moment is the global pandemic. Then give yourself a break. Give yourself some grace. You, like everyone else, are human. We are wired to be stressed and anxious under such circumstances. When our ancestors were attacked by bears or tigers, they were scared. That is normal. Don’t be too hard on yourself.
5. Have grace with others.
If you feel like you deserve a break, how about giving others, especially, those close friends and family, a break. There is a saying, “treat others how you want to be treated.” This is the so-called Golden Rule, actually the words of Jesus. If you feel that you deserve forgiveness in what feel like unprecedented times, then perhaps those close friends and family deserve forgiveness too.
6. Channel your energy in productive ways.
It starts with acceptance. Accept the limitations of your current living and working environment. Think positively. How can you use your adjusted circumstances positively? If you are around close friends and family more, perhaps you can have a game night or a movie night. Perhaps you can actually talk to each other, rather than running from one activity to another which many of us do in normal times. From a professional standpoint, for those whose work schedules have been cut back or altered, think of those long-term planning projects you may finally be able to get to. Perhaps you are tired of your job or profession. Use this time to think of alternative directions. Perhaps consider calling friends and colleagues. You might be amazed that some people like you are stuck at home, and perhaps could be available to connect with.
Life can be stressful. It often is. Even beyond the current pandemic, when we get stressed we tend to lash out – in both personal and professional situations. We blame ourselves. We blame others. Or perhaps both. Having grace and tolerance with yourself and others is so important. Can you imagine a world where we were all tolerant of each other, where we all showed grace to each other? A world where there is understanding and forgiveness irrespective of race, background, political party or country of origin. That is the world many of us hope for. It starts with each of us, showing grace and tolerance first to ourselves and then to others.
Reflection
For what things, and in what ways, do you need to show yourself grace and tolerance??
Who do you need to show grace and tolerance to, and for what?
How would having an attitude of grace and tolerance change your world?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
She never really had a chance to dream about what her life could be before a tragic car accident at 11 in her native Taiwan left Michelle Kuei with physical and emotional scars that plagued her for 30 years. When her body stopped growing after the crash, her mind started racing with how she would never be “normal.” It wasn’t just that friendships and romance were hard — grocery shopping was near-impossible: she couldn’t grab anything to put in her cart without first discarding her crutches, and items on even the middle shelves were beyond her reach. But everything changed when she set her mind to fighting through the pain and fear and took up hiking, a pursuit that resulted in her ascending the peak of Machu Picchu and learning that she wasn’t just normal, she had extraordinary in her. Finding the diamond inside her rough circumstances, she tells Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax, led her into a rewarding coaching career in which she helps negative self-talkers discover inner strength and beauty by overcoming their fear of judgments. “Each and every one of us,” she explains, “is a gift to this world.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Well, welcome everybody to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. And you have pushed play, hopefully pushed subscribe to a podcast that deals in what we call crucible experiences. Crucible experiences are those things that happen to us or those things that perhaps we in some way, shape or form might help cause those painful moments in life, those difficult moments in life that can truly change the trajectory of life, that can make you feel sometimes like there’s no way out, can make you feel sometimes like you might want to give up.
Gary S:
But the reason for the show and the reason for Crucible Leadership, which is informs the show. The reason for that, the reason we talk about these things is so that we don’t end up camped out there. We don’t end up not wanting to get up and move on. It’s to talk to folks who’ve been through these moments, like you listener have been through, and to offer hope and healing, and encouragement to you in that process. And with me, as always, is the architect of what I mentioned earlier, Crucible Leadership, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we’ve got just in the little chat we’ve done before we hit record, I can tell we’ve got a barn burner here today.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary, looking forward to it.
Gary S:
Our guest today, listener, is Michelle Kuei, and I’m going to read her bio to you right now. Michelle Kuei is a certified transition life coach who helps negative self-talkers to discover inner strength and beauty by overcoming fear of judgements. Michelle’s speaking career began in 2018, soon after she founded her own coaching company. She’s the author of the new memoir, Perfectly Normal; An Immigrant Story of Making It In America. She is a board member of the United Nations Association of the USA and a clinical pharmacist at USC’s Keck Medical Center.
Gary S:
Michelle was born in Taiwan and grew up in New York, but today, she lives in Los Angeles with a short haired Brown Tabby named Buster. If you’re looking for her, odds are you’ll find her at the gym. And Michelle, I’m going to put a pin in that comment because after we talk about your story, I want to come back to that comment because that’s a key element, I believe, of your story. Remember listener, that last point, if you’re looking for her, odds are you’ll find her at the gym.
Warwick F:
Well, Michelle, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. You have an incredible story. I’d love to just start with tell us about your story that leads up to your crucible moment. Yeah, just tell us a bit about Michelle and your story.
Michelle K:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure and in isolation, but it doesn’t feel like isolation right now. I’m surrounded by a lot of love. To start, basically, I grew up, like Gary said, I grew up in Taiwan. I was born in Taiwan and as I was growing up at age 11 years old, just like all the other kids who go to school, I came off school one day and I remember that day my mom was running late. I was waiting for her at school and when I saw her coming towards me to pick me up, she was on her motorbike. There’s a lot of motorbike in Asia. She was coming off on her motorbike, and I got up from my chair, I ran across the street. I wanted to meet her on the other side of the street.
Michelle K:
As I was approaching and walking to the middle of the street, I realized that my best friend was waving her hand at me and she said, “Stop, stop.” And she was waving at me and there’s a lot of shouting that was going on. I was confused. I was standing in the middle of the street and I could just smell the rubber that was burning, and I don’t remember where the sound was coming down. Then the next thing I know was that I woke up and I was in a hospital bed. And when I woke up and my parents were standing next to my bed, and they were talking to the doctor. I started to have sensation and I started looking down on my waist, and from my waist all the way down to my ankle, I noticed I was wrapped with this plaster that was surrounding my body.
Michelle K:
Basically, the doctor had… because of the accident, I had the accident while I was standing in the middle of the street, and the doctor had to stabilize me by wrapping me with a plaster from waist all the way to ankle. Following that incident, three months afterwards, I was basically trapped at home in isolation. I was in bed and I couldn’t go to school, and I couldn’t go anywhere. But what’s the crucible, and I love the title of this podcast because it’s crucible. What’s really difficult in those moment at age 11 is that the fact that I was a little kid and I wanted to go out to play. I wanted to meet my friend and I wanted to just be where the life that I used to live in, but I couldn’t do that and I was starting to live a different life.
Michelle K:
That moment was like a turning point for me because I no longer can do all the things I wanted to do in my past. And now I have to learn how to walk after they unwrap me. I have to learn how to do a lot of things by myself. Learning how to walk, learning how to make new friends was another thing at age 11. That was the beginning of this crucible moment. From age 11 all the way till 40 years old, so I spent 30 years of my life living very differently. It’s not a normal life where… so just to backtrack a little bit to gave the listener an idea of how I look like.
Michelle K:
I’m 4 feet, 4 inches tall, very short, very petite. This has been the same height since I was in elementary school, because the accident actually required the doctor to go back and perform a lot of different surgeries, so I had a lot of scars on my leg. And with that, something must have happened and inhibited the way that I was growing. I had not grown since when I was 11, the same height as I was 11. Growing into adulthood, being with the same height, it created a lot of challenges for me.
Michelle K:
There’s moment where I go to school, I can’t reach stuff on the shelf. When you’re a kid, that’s okay because people will… adult will just reach over and grab it for you. But when you reach over to adulthood or when you’re in your first job, and I remember my first job, I work in a pharmacy where the counter is taller than me. In order to me to work like everyone else, I have to use a step stool, I have to reach to the top. There’s a lot of climbing. There’s a lot of physical strenuous activity that I need to be able to do in addition to all the other responsibility that I have. That’s quite challenging.
Michelle K:
And I could never figure out why when you walk into a grocery store, all the essential items would be on the very top shelf rather than on the bottom shelf, that I never figured out. That’s also really very, extremely essential challenge for me because I need to buy essentials and I can never reach to the top. And there’s something about asking that always frightens me in the past. I never liked to ask people what to do or help me with things. What ended up happening is if I need to reach the toilet paper on the top, I can’t do that. I was just using an alternative rather than asking, putting myself out there and ask.
Michelle K:
That’s 30 years of my life growing like that. During that time, I was also battling with what’s going on in the inside, because as adolescent, as I grow into adolescent, I was experiencing a lot of that peer pressure where people are dressing up, all these girls they’re looking very pretty. They started to wear… it was during the ‘80s, so I don’t know if you guys remember the ‘80s, the hair.
Gary S:
I had hair in the ‘80s, so.
Michelle K:
The hair, the mini skirt and I wanted to look exactly like that, and that was one of my dream, wanting to look that way when I go out. When I’m in a social group, when I’m with my friends, when we hang out, I want to dress like that, but I couldn’t because with my leg, the way that the surgeon was performing, the doctor had told me that, “Michelle, from 11 years old, after the surgery, you have to wear these metal bracelet because as you’re growing, we don’t want you to grow your bone into a deformity.” I was given a pair of really ugly metal bracelet that I was supposed to wear up until the age of 18.
Michelle K:
But by age of 16, I was struggling with the look. I said to myself, “You know what? I’m not going to wear these. These are too ugly. I want to take it off.” I decided I was going to take it off, I took it off. And the minute I took it off, I started to use my body weight all on top of my leg. That created pressure and as I’m walking, it started to hurt my back. And by the time I reached my college, I noticed that I could no longer walk comfortably without any assistance. For the longest time, my mom was my crutch. She goes everywhere I go. I always hold onto her hand. She goes where I go.
Michelle K:
Once I got into graduate school, I had to live in the dorm. I went when off and left home, I started to live in the dorm. I couldn’t take my mom anymore, so I got to figure out a way to somehow walk. My doctor told me, “Well, this is time, basically, at this point, your leg is so disfigured. If you don’t use a crutch to walk, you’re not going to make it.” I said, “Okay, fine.” I started to use two arm crutches. Instead of holding on to my mom, I used arm crutches. And being short is one thing, it’s already a challenge. Now I have to deal with two arm crutches, holding on. I have no hand to hold anything else.
Michelle K:
A lot of times when I go out, it’s a matter of how do I strap things on my body so I can carry groceries. How can I use my body so that I can carry things that I need to carry with my hand? And when I see people going to a coffee shop and I get so envy of them because they have the ability of holding their coffee in one hand and looking at their phone at the other. I don’t have that luxury. I have two crutches and I can’t do neither one of them. I often have to stop either to get my phone, put my crutches down or one or the other. I couldn’t do both. And I get really jealous of people having the ability to do that.
Michelle K:
And that was something that I was really struggling with for 30 years of my life because I want to look normal. I want to have that life that everyone else has. Being able to go to a store and reaching to the top without asking people for help. I wanted to dress up pretty in my clothes so that when I go out people will say, “Michelle, you’re beautiful.” That first impression I never had, the first impression that we all value. Even during job interview, we look at someone, we look at the first impression. I always thought that that’s a luxury that I don’t have because I don’t have that first appearance.
Warwick F:
Wow, that’s an incredible story. And I want to go back a bit. And before age 11, you were probably just a typical girl, had a lot of friends. I’m guessing you’ve always been a happy kind of person in your nature.
Michelle K:
I was a happy, happy baby, my mom said.
Warwick F:
I can imagine. When that happened, I mean, sometimes there’s anger and resentment, like depending on your beliefs, God or some spiritual force, why did you let that happen? Maybe if my friend hadn’t waved to me, I would have kept going or why didn’t this car see me? And did you go through a cycle of anger and resentment, and how could this have happened?
Michelle K:
I did. I absolutely did. And I thought if my mom had come just a minute earlier or she hasn’t run late that day, maybe all of this wouldn’t happen. Or maybe if I were to just wait just one second more before I start walking across the street, then maybe this wouldn’t have happened. I went through that period initially, at least for a good 10, 15 years of my life, thinking why does it have to be me? Why is it just me that happened? I have two other siblings. I have a brother and a sister, and I’m thinking, “Why couldn’t it just happened to them? Why does it have to have happened to me? What is it about me? Why did it happen to me?”
Warwick F:
Why does the world not like me? I mean, you used the word normal before, which is we all want to fit in. It’s just part of being human. You want to be liked. You said growing up in the ‘80s, you want to be seen as pretty, be able to wear all the fashions and just like your friends. And it’s like, “Well, why can’t I be normal like my friends? Why can’t I be like everybody else? How has this fair?” I mean it just, the comment you made, “Why can’t I hold a cup of coffee in one hand, a phone in the other? I mean, is that too much to ask? It’s like I’m not asking for, I don’t know, a million dollars and a beautiful house. I just want a normal life.” Right?
Warwick F:
And so, for that must’ve been not just the accident, but the years after and grad school, and do I have to have my mother around me. I mean, I’m sure you love your mother, but can’t I go somewhere without that? And so that must have been… it sounds like it was years and years of dealing with that frustration. It wasn’t just the first few years, it was how many years would you say that frustration of just the-
Michelle K:
It was a good 30 years and I just wanted to be normal. And not being normal to me means that you have the normal body shape that we all… we flipped through the textbook, the biology textbook, this is how a woman or a man should look. There’s physically, they look identical, they look perfect, their legs are straight. That’s normal for me. And that’s how I define normal. And that’s what I believe normal should be. When I see myself in the mirror, I actually felt really ashamed of my body because this is not what I was taught. This is not what I see around me. This is not normal.
Warwick F:
It’s almost like I cannot be happy and fulfilled unless I’m normal. Was that the mindset that you’re going through? And therefore, it’s impossible for me to have a happy, fulfilling life because I’m not normal, as you looked at it.
Michelle K:
Yes.
Warwick F:
And so, I mean, I’m sure a number of listeners maybe have had physical challenges, there are all sorts of challenges that make you feel like nobody can love me and accept me. And it’s all from physical challenges to abuse, to you name it, there’s all sorts of things that people feel like nobody can possibly love or want me kind of thing. How did that change for you? Because there are certain things like physically, I imagine that’s a difficult thing. I mean, certainly you probably had to accept that you can’t actually change, but how did you manage to combat that and just change how you thought about things?
Gary S:
And especially if I can add here, especially from an emotional perspective, one of the things, Michelle, that strikes me about your story, your crucible experience is that it is both physical and very devastating, and also emotionally very devastating. One of the things that you and I talked about in advance of our interview time here and the note I took is that romantic relationships were very difficult. There’s an emotional aspect of this that is in very real ways as painful in different ways, but real ways as painful as the physical aspect of it.
Gary S:
To Warwick’s question, how did you overcome that both from a physical and emotional sense? And I guess for listeners who face some of those same things, there’s a physical crucible and emotions tied to it. Which one was perhaps more difficult to overcome?
Michelle K:
I would definitely say the emotional is the most difficult to overcome. Because a physical challenge, like what I did was I used a step stool. These physical external challenges can overcome by accommodating with a step stool or with something else, or with a crutch for nowaday, I reach over and just push things to the edge. External physical challenge is really easy to overcome, but emotional challenges, what I find that really were the core of the energy, the majority of the time that we’re spending dwelling on.
Michelle K:
And I remember one of the incident was I was in my 30s and that was during the time when I first got into relationship. And I remember I was just sitting there one day and there was an empty chair with a man’s jacket on the chair on the back. And I was just looking at the jacket and looking at the chair, and I started to crying. I was crying. And there’s an enormous sense of loneliness that was inside that was coming out for me, because for the longest time I was longing for someone to love me. I was longing to be loved, to be appreciated and to have that love be returned to me when I send it out.
Michelle K:
But when I’m not getting that reciprocate of love and caring from another person, from another man, I felt extremely hurt and alone. And that was the emotion I was going through from ever since I started to explore the relationship side. And there’s so much of interpersonal relationship that we deal with every day. What I’ve learned is that it says a lot about… it’s teaching a lot about who you are. When I was in those moments, and perhaps this is something that the listener can and find value in, is that in order to overcome your emotional challenge, many times you have to be able to recognize it. You have to allow it, you have to accept it.
Michelle K:
And my condition, my physical challenge was something I needed to accept. This is how I am and this is who I am. This is how I’m going to look for the rest of my life. I can sit here and not accept it, and keep having resistance, keep having that fighting emotion and keep wanting to understand why has it done to me, and keep wanting, exploring it in that victim thinking mentality or mindset. Or, I can accept that this had happened. It’s very unfortunate, but it happened. I can accept this is how I look and I can embrace every part of me because there’s something else other than, greater than what we see on the outside. It’s not just the physical appearance, it’s not just what we see externally. It’s what’s going on in the inside. There’s a light that’s inside each one of us. That’s what we need to accept.
Warwick F:
I mean that is so profound about focusing on the light that’s within us, accepting the things we can’t change. How did you do that? Because as you said, I think it was like, what, 20, 30 years of battling with this. I mean, it’s not easy. I mean, you’re an intelligent person. You’re somebody that looks like when they want to achieve something, they do. I mean, you strike me as that kind of person. It’s not like you’re somebody that just sits there and does nothing. How did you get to that point where you could actually accept the physical limitations and change how you thought about yourself? How did you do that?
Michelle K:
One of my biggest challenge in this life is my physical challenge, right? I grew up 30 years of being physically challenged and this is my limitation. And part of it has to do with the word that you used, combat. And when you’re in that combat mode, you realize there’s something that you need to fight. What is it that you need to fight for? And for me, what I need to fight for is to find a light, to find my purpose, find the reason why I am here. I started to tap into that anger, that resentment. I want to know why.
Michelle K:
And one day I remember I was waking up and suddenly, I was getting so tired of living this life. I told myself, “All right, so here you are. This is your physical challenge. What are you going to do about it?” I was asking, having a conversation with myself, I said, “What are you going to do about it?” My answer was, “Well, if physical challenge is my challenge, guess what? I guess I have no choice but challenge my physical challenge.” I decided that in 2016, I’d never been to a gym before. I never signed up to a gym, don’t know how to work the easy equipment. I was really afraid of breaking them. And being myself, getting myself broken. I was afraid to go into the gym.
Michelle K:
But in 2016, I decided I’m going to go sign up in the gym. I did that. That was my number one, my first step of wanting to find out what would it take for me to fight in this. I went and signed up to a gym, and then the second thing I did was I hired myself a personal trainer because obviously, I don’t know how to work these machines, so I need someone to show me, to teach me how to do it. I hired a professional, I hired a personal coach. And then the third thing I did, at that time all my friends, they were talking about how amazing it is to do hiking, to go out and climb the mountain, and going to Peru.
Michelle K:
And so, I could never participate in those conversations with them because it was some part of me that I just couldn’t do. One of my goal is actually to be able to participate in those conversation. That same year, 2016, I made a promise to myself, I’m going to promise myself that I can do this and I’m going to do whatever it takes to hike. I started hiking that year. And the other goal that I had was I don’t want just hiking, I don’t want to just go up to any mountain, I want to go up to Machu Picchu and I want to do the Inca Trail.
Michelle K:
The Inca Trail is 26 miles and it’s a four-day hike. And each day you have to just camp out and you have to rough it out. There’s no shower, there’s no toilet whatsoever. You really have to rough it up. And so, in addition to just being rough it out there, I flew myself to Peru in that same year, in September. I flew myself to Peru and I don’t speak Spanish, by the way. I flew myself there and I had my two crutches and I brought my two pink arm crutches because it has to be pink, it has to be pink. I brought my pink crutches, went up to the mountain, I got food poisoning the day before the hike, check myself to the infirmary the night before.
Michelle K:
And I remember calling my sister. I said, “I’m really sick. I’m in the hospital right now. I don’t know, can you talk me out of it?” My sister was like, “Yeah, you need to come home. Come home today.” And I thought about it, right? And I was, “No, I made it this far. I’m going to go.” After we hung up the phone, I told my sister, “I’m going to go.” And lo and behold, the next day, I went out to Machu Picchu, started my first day of hike. On the first day, it was all uphill. It was all inclined. I remember I had a lot of difficulty because the high-altitude syndrome, it was real.
Warwick F:
Right.
Michelle K:
Yeah, it was real. And I remember I was getting tired. I was dehydrated and so my immune system was kind of down. The first day was a struggle and I barely made it to the final camp that night. And my team leader, the tool guy who was with us, he sat me down and he asked me, because past the first day if I made a decision to come back, then there was still a chance that I can come back. He sat me down and he said, “Michelle, I know you were struggling and I know this is something that you want to do, but you were leaving behind you had to a difficult time to catch up. What do you want to do?” He gave the option to me and I thought about it. I said, “Thank you. I appreciate that you’re letting me know that after this point, there’s no turning back.” I said, “I appreciate that, but I want to continue.”
Michelle K:
Every morning after the first day, so starting on the second day, every morning, I will wake up at five o’clock in the morning, I would start my hike. I would put my headlight on. It’s still dark outside. You can’t really see the steps. I would put on my headlight and I would start my hike. Every day, five o’clock, I would start my hike. And I can barely just made it to meet everybody around dinner time, around lunchtime, around break time. And all these people that I met during that trip, it’s been an amazing journey.
Michelle K:
And so, I did that in September 2016, and the very last day of the Inca Trail hike, we were at the point of the Sun Gate. This is the final entry point before we get into the Machu Picchu, so I was looking at the steps, the final 50 steps at Machu Picchu. I looked up, it was 60 degrees angle or 70, yeah. I was looking up, and I was, “Oh my God.” I wasn’t sure what have I done? How am I going to finish these last 50 steps with my two crutches? And the steps were really narrow and small. I stood in front of the Sun Gate, I was looking up and I thought about all my life for this very moment. “Okay, I’m here. What do I have to do to finish this?”
Michelle K:
I gave my two crutches to my team leader, took off my day pack, hand the day pack to him. I say, “Here, you lead me to the top.” I sent him to the top. I got down to my knees and legs, I started to crawl because that was the only safe way for me to go to the top. I got down to my hands and knee, I started crawling every step, every step, one step at a time. And by the time I went to the top, my team leader was clapping. I turned around and there was someone else taking a picture. I took my hand up, that victory gesture. I was in the air. It felt so accomplished.
Michelle K:
Then I turned around, I started approaching to meet everybody and my teammate, and all these other travelers at this big platform at the Sun Gate. I walked in, everyone stood up and they were clapping, they were cheering for me. And I actually got a pin from Canada. It was an honorary citizen. I still have my pin. I still have my pin. And it was amazing. And that was the moment that I start to realize that I am capable. Whatever it is going in front of me, that I am capable as long as I set my mind to it.
Warwick F:
Well, it seems like that moment was pivotal on your journey, that changing how you think about things. I mean, there’s the internal and there’s the external, exactly sort of busting into the picture here.
Gary S:
Hi Buster.
Warwick F:
For the listeners who are listening to it, there’s a beautiful old Tabby cat that just emerged. But Michelle, there’s the internal and there’s the external, as I said, to think about this story. There’s externally, you are having an enormous impact on those around you. I’m not quite sure which to start with but just maybe on the external. You felt alone, like nobody wants to see me, but yet you had a whole bunch of cheerleaders, people that were with you. What did it feel like or as you looked at their faces, they were on team Michelle, right?
Michelle K:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
They were your team, they wanted you to win, they wanted you to succeed. Talk about the effect that you had on them and how it felt back to you.
Michelle K:
It was a really strange feeling because when I was in that moment, when I was so busy caught up in my own misery and tragedy, and thinking that the world, just all the bad things just happen to me, when I’m so busy tied in thinking about that, it was really hard to believe that I had any impact on others. Actually, that’s what my teammate had to called were Team Michelle, and we actually celebrate it with a cake on my last day of the trip that says Team Michelle.
Warwick F:
Oh really?
Michelle K:
It was really hard for me to believe that because I was so busy thinking about my own misery. And when you start changing your mind, when that shift starts to happen and you realize that you are not alone in this. There’s so many people around you who celebrate you, who cheer for you, who stood out for you and who clap for you. Now they really see you as the light at the end of their tunnel. It was a complete different experience for me and it was eye-opening to really stress seeing them for the first time.
Warwick F:
It’s almost like if you let them, they want to be with you, they want to not just support you, they want to cheer for you if you’ll let them, and you could see that. And then just it’s often we think of physical limitations and there are limitations, but yet it seems like you did what most people would say is impossible. Machu Picchu, I don’t know how many thousands of feet height is, but it’s very high altitude, sickness that a lot of people get. You got these 50 steps, 60-degree incline. It’s like most people would say somebody with your challenges and crutches, it’s impossible. Give it up. You’re going to hurt yourself. But yet you overcame that physical limitation.
Warwick F:
Talk about the feeling you had when you’re on top of those steps and you’d done what most people thought was impossible. What were you feeling at that moment when you’d achieve the impossible, seemingly?
Michelle K:
I was crying, the minute I reached to the top, and to answer your question, it’s 14,000 feet high.
Warwick F:
Oh wow.
Michelle K:
That’s the altitude.
Gary S:
Oh, just 14,000 feet.
Michelle K:
And when I reached the highest peak, I broke down and cry. And I think a lot of it has to do with that spirituality, that feeling that there’s something greater than myself, there’s something bigger than myself. And when I look around, the whole environment, the whole world, the mountain, there’s something bigger than just me. It helped me to lift my thinking away from that egocentric me, me, me, me, me, to a broader view of I am not in this alone. There’s so many people around me who celebrated me and there are so many people who’s going through the same journey, and they’re struggling too. I may not see their physical struggles, but they’re struggling too.
Michelle K:
And on my journey, I remember there’s a guy, the perfectly well, very fit. He probably worked out a lot and he was just kept throwing up. Every 10 seconds, 10 minutes, he was throwing up on the side and it was a race between him and I, because he has to stop and throw up, and I have to stop and catch up. It made me realize that yes, my struggle was the physical challenge, this is my limitation. But for someone else, it could be something that’s going on inside. There’s a storm that they are experiencing on the inside and I don’t see that. It’s not my place to judge them of what they’re going through.
Gary S:
Right. This is a perfect time, I think, to jump in and read something, Michelle, that you wrote in that form I talked about that we have guests fill out. And I have to tell you that we have had every guest that we’ve had on fill this out, and yours is one of the most inspirational ones I’ve read. But you said this and I think it summarizes your story perfectly, not just from your perspective, but also, I hope from the perspective of listeners who have different realities to their crucible experiences, but the emotions are the same.
Gary S:
But this is what you wrote in talking about how to think about a crucible, and you just described the way that you did that when you were going through yours and when you were bouncing back from it. But here’s what you wrote, in part what you wrote. “So what if this very moment, whatever this setback you are experiencing was meant to be something bigger than yourself? What if this is the universe’s gift to refine and polish the diamond within you? What if you are meant to find the gem, and that is what makes you different, unique and extraordinary? How would you choose to see your setback? How would you choose to see your tragedy? The misfortune that measured only a small fraction of our entire lifetime.”
Gary S:
That is a beautiful summary of not just your story, but the story of a lot of folks who are listening right now. And listeners hear that and realize that gift was not a word, I’m sure, Michelle chose lightly. That your crucible can be a gift from the universe, from your spiritual tradition. Can be a gift to help you realize things you’re capable of and to help you realize what you were, as Warwick talks about, what your true purpose is here on earth.
Warwick F:
Yeah, so great point. Michelle, talk about how what you went through can be seen as a gift, which for most people they just said, what are you talking about, Michelle? Not getting at all the hidden gem. I mean, there’s a lot of profound words in it. Talk about how your thinking changed and your message, frankly, to the world. Talk about that message in your perspective.
Michelle K:
I think each and every one of us are a gift. We are a gift to this world. For me it’s I’m really good at doing medicine. I’m really good with pharmacology. I’m a pharmacist, right? That’s what I do. And that’s a talent that was given to me. And for someone else, they could be a really good engineer. They could be someone who has a lot of analytical thinking. Each one of us are very unique and there’s a purpose in our life that we came to this earth for, and that’s how we serve to the world. Right?
Michelle K:
And when I talk about gift and each one of us being the diamond, you have to believe, you have to start to believe that you are this thing that we dig out from all the dirt, and what’s behind all that dirt, it’s actually something very beautiful, very profound, and very special, and very unique. Because there’s something inside of you that makes you who you are, that defines who you are, that makes you perfectly different than everyone else. And that is the gem. That is the diamond of you. You are the diamond, and you have to believe that because that’s who you are.
Michelle K:
And until you believe that, and until you have that grind in your brain, in your memory, in your mind, everything else in this world just have that impermanent sense, right? Everything that happens to us are just experience.
Warwick F:
Talk about how you began to see yourself as the diamond, because that aged 11, aged 28, 30, that I don’t think was where you were at. What did that look like for Michelle, for Michelle Kuei, for looking at yourself as the diamond? How do you change that thinking and what did that look like for you?
Michelle K:
Before I saw myself as wanting to be normal, I just want to be normal. Whatever that normal is that’s acceptable to the society, I want you to look just like everybody else. I meet you, I want you to be able to do things on my own. I want you to be able to hold a coffee, a cup of coffee in my hand. I want to be normal, which is fine, but living in normal, that’s not who we are. And I keep emphasizing that you have a purpose in life. What is your purpose? There’s a reason why we’re all here on this earth. And with that purpose, you need to be able to serve.
Michelle K:
Do you want to be normal? Do you want to remain and just being enough? And our purpose is not just being enough. And I think a lot of people, a lot of listener might resonate with this because we’re constantly thinking about, “Oh, it’s not enough. We’re not good enough. We’re not pretty enough.” Well, why even bother settling for enough? What if the idea is that you are more than enough? What if the whole idea is for you to find your purpose, find your strength so that you can use that purpose, use that strength to serve others who needs your help? Whatever that strength that you have, that is your purpose, that is your gem, that’s your diamond.
Michelle K:
For me, the way that I found it and how did I begin to see myself as a diamond is I start to realize, and this is actually just happened recently, I finally had an aha moment just a couple of weeks ago and I spent all my life wanting to be normal, and my book was talking about normal, like being perfectly normal. But I’m here, I am here in the middle of the road and that was my past. I’ve already done that. I am more than normal. I climbed Machu Picchu, I did all that. I’m able to hike. I did all these things, but that’s not normal. That’s not normal at all.
Michelle K:
People can’t do that. People can’t just wake up one night and they say, “You know what? I’m going to go high Machu Picchu.” No, that’s not normal at all. I’d done something very extraordinary that not many people can do. Why not accept yourself for your extraordinary? Why not accept yourself for who you are? You are more than just enough. Why not accept yourself for the gift that was given to you? And then that was my aha moment. I said, “HUH,” so I lived all my life just wanting to be normal. But in fact, there’s nothing normal about me. I’m really abnormal. I’m unique, I’m different, and I’m embracing it. I’m going to live it, I’m going to love it.
Warwick F:
And that’s a profound message that we all want to fit in, be normal. But I guess why be normal? I mean, as you said, we’re all unique, extraordinary in some sense. We’re all designed a unique way, with certain backgrounds, talents, skills. We all have a different purpose. Normal is overrated. Why be normal? Why not just embrace being extraordinary, embrace being different? Because everybody’s different. Why fit in? Fitting in is limiting, you know? And it sounded like your whole attitude to life changed.
Warwick F:
Talk about how you do pharmacy, but I know you do a lot of coaching and writing, and speaking. Talk about what is, it’s a word that’s tough to embrace for most of us, but talk about in what ways is Michelle unique, a gem, a diamond, even extraordinary, if you will. How does that manifest itself? What is your purpose in the world, do you feel?
Michelle K:
My purpose in the world is to inspire. I do everything. One of the things that I do very often is to speak about my story and the journey that I came through, and how I was in that place of feeling sorry about myself and just playing small, from the fact that today I see myself as a diamond. It sounds very like I give myself a lot of credit, but I truly feel that I am the diamond. And in order to have this contrary journey, there’s a breakthrough moment. There’s an aha moment that I finally said, “You know what? I’m going to step in. I’m going to start doing this.” That is my inspiration for everyone and my purpose is to inspire those to start to lead for themselves.
Michelle K:
And I think self-leadership is such a very important process and message that the world needs to learn and to hear. Because through self-leadership, you become the best version of yourself. And when you are the best version of yourself, you start to influence all these others around you. You start setting up example for them. You start showing them the way to lead their life. You’re not telling them how to lead their life. You’re showing them that it is possible through this crucible moment that you can find your way and make yourself shine, make yourself stand out.
Warwick F:
And what you’re saying is so profound. I think one of the things I’ve also found in my own life and I think some or many others have, is as you take your focus off yourself on to other people, how can I help others? How can I inspire them? How can I… it’s not just overcoming your own demons or your own self-limiting thoughts for yourself, by doing that, you help to inspire others. It’s almost like the, I wouldn’t say the challenge is greater, but the challenge is even more inspiring. It’s what is the purpose of getting up? And part of it is you want to inspire others.
Warwick F:
And so, as you’re focusing on others, it helps you feel less focused on yourself and how you look. Because when you focus on others, there’s not as much room to think about yourself, right? There’s what I call a healing balm, like a healing ointment, if you will, by focusing on others. Have you felt that just within your own spirit, as you focused on others? There’s a healing component to that, right?
Michelle K:
Absolutely. And when we start looking at the bigger picture, that’s where the healing comes in. Because you’re no longer focusing on the wellbeing of yourself, you’re focusing more on the wellbeing of the society, the community within your family. You still have that broader view of life.
Gary S:
We’re at the point of the show where we’re going to have to begin to not land the plane yet, but I think the captain’s turned on the fasten seatbelts sign. We’re starting our descent a little bit. But one thing to follow up on that point, Michelle, one of the really a blessing in getting to know you even before we started this interview, is you are very connected on social media. And after we first talked, you sent me a friend request on Facebook, and I have so enjoyed watching you live your life and the way that you live your life, and the way that you encourage people with exactly what you just talked about. Being focused on bringing joy to people, being focused on not what limits us, but the things that we can do.
Gary S:
And one of the things I said at the outset when I read your bio, the last line, if you’re looking for a Michele, odds are you’ll find her at the gym. There’s a video you posted on social media a couple of days ago and it speaks to this entire story that we’ve been talking about. On one side, there’s a photograph of you with your arm crutches, somewhat at some point after your accident. Obviously, you’re older but you’re still using those to get around quite a bit. And then the video is you-
Michelle K:
Doing a jump rope.
Gary S:
Right? You’re skipping rope and you’re not just skipping rope like I’d skip rope. Okay? You’re skipping rope like Sylvester Stallone in Rocky. You are skipping rope like a prize fighter. You are skipping rope fast. You are skipping rope well. I mean, it is in 45 seconds, hugely, hugely inspirational. In the time that we have left, first of all, let listeners know how they can connect with you to maybe hear some of the things that you can help them along their route as they’re going through their bounce back from their crucible.
Michelle K:
They can definitely find me on my website at elevatelifecoaching.org, or if they like, they can definitely follow me on Instagram, which I’m very active on Instagram. It’s a Elevate Life Coach.
Warwick F:
Michelle, you have such an inspiring story, that it’s one thing to have a physical limitation, but you’ve changed your whole perspective. You view yourself as, I don’t know, to me, a lot better than normal. You view yourself as, as we all should, as a diamond, uniquely created. We all have extraordinary attributes. You’ve changed the way you’re thinking and your focus on the helping and inspiring others. I mean, rather than being normal, you’re somebody that people admire. You’re somebody that people look up to. I know that you probably think, “Well, how could anybody look up to me?”
Michelle K:
They’re probably looking down on me.
Warwick F:
I’m 4-foot something but yet people do look up to you. In that moment when you were on top of those stairs at Machu Picchu, people were saying, “This is one extraordinary woman. This is somebody I admire. This is somebody that can teach me a lot.” It’s very difficult to change your way of thinking, but you’ve done… I mean, that is miraculous. That is extraordinary. You are, in a sense, a role model.
Michelle K:
Thank you.
Warwick F:
Helping people see that we all have limitations. Most people feel bad about themselves. I mean, if you take off the mask, give them truth serum, most people do or many people do. Maybe I’m exaggerating, but not much. But yet you’re giving people hope. Your limitations are clear. For many, it’s not so clear, it’s internal, but you’ve changed the way you’re thinking. You give hope that we all can change the way we think and focus on helping others, and using our extraordinary qualities we all have to help others. You have an amazing story, an amazing mission. Thank you for what you bring to the world.
Michelle K:
Thank you.
Gary S:
And one last thing I have to ask because I’m going to go back to this form that we had you fill out, and we ask every guest the same question at the end. If we could only ask you one question, what would that question be? And no offense to our previous guests, but your answer to that question is the best one I’ve seen. And this is what you said when we asked if there was only one question we could ask you, what would you want it to be? And I’d love for you to answer this question. Here’s how you answered our question and then you can answer your own question. Fill in the blank. You said the world needs what? What does the world need, Michelle?
Michelle K:
The world needs more love.
Gary S:
On that note, listeners. See, I’m sitting there thinking it’s going to be a nice long. No, it’s very inspiring. And when you can make me like at a loss for words, you’ve done something, so bravo. But thank you truly, thank you truly for that. I mean, because that summarizes what you’re talking about, I think. And listeners, thank you for joining us today on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. There’s a few things from Michelle’s story I was taking notes on as she was saying them that I hope you heard as well, and I want to accent again before we go because I think there’s some good takeaways.
Gary S:
There are far more good takeaways from her story than the three I’ve written down, but here’s three that as you look at your own crucible experiences, as you look at your own desire to bounce back from those to embrace your vision and live a life of significance, here’s three things that Michelle has talked about today that I think you can apply to your own life. The first thing is that it’s true that crucibles can change the things you love to do and they can even change your ability to do certain things, but you can conquer so much of that with a positive attitude and positive action.
Gary S:
The second takeaway I think from Michelle’s story, and this is a powerful thing, and she said it herself here in our conversation that it’s hard, but press through how hard it is and do it. Second takeaway point, ask for help. The key to overcoming crucibles, Warwick has talked about it many times, is having a team of people around you, formal or informal, professional or personal. Ask for help. There are people out there who want to help you, who are willing to help you and who are able to help you.
Gary S:
And then the third point, I think that all of us would do well to follow in our crucible experiences, that in order to overcome emotional challenges, Michelle talked about it in depth. In order to overcome emotional challenges tied to your crucible, you have to accept the reality of your crucible. Pretending it’s not there, pretending it didn’t happen, pretending there aren’t repercussions of it isn’t going to work. You have to accept the reality of it. But don’t camp out there, like we said at the outset. Let it inspire you to action, both in the way that you think about yourself and others, in the way that you act in to yourself and to others. Yes, it’s real, but you can make it. You can find the diamond inside.
Gary S:
That’s all the time we have, but thank you again for joining us on Beyond the Crucible. We’d ask you for a quick favor, listener, if you can do it right now on whatever podcast app you’re listening to this show on, click the Subscribe button. What that will do is make sure that you don’t miss any episodes of what we talk about here on Beyond the Crucible. It will also help us to reach more people with inspiring stories, with hopeful stories, with stories filled with joy and laughter like Michelle’s. A quick subscribe, share it with friends. That will be a huge benefit to, I think, your friends and a huge benefit to us as we can share the realities of how people are overcoming their crucibles and the hope and healing that comes from that.
Gary S:
Until we’re together next time, remember that crucible experiences are real. They do happen. They can be devastating, but they are not. Michelle Kuei’s story proves that they are not the end of your story. They are the beginning of a new chapter of your story if you choose to dive into them and learn the lessons of them. And that chapter of your new story can be the best one yet because it points you toward, leads you to a life of significance.
Millions worldwide are dealing with fears of the “what if?” right now as the world struggles through the health and economic uncertainties of the coronavirus outbreak.
These worries can be upsetting, depressing and even emotionally paralyzing; in fact, one scientific study has determined fear of the unknown can be more distressing than fear of serious injury or death. In this new episode of BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE, host and Crucible Leadership founder Warwick Fairfax offers several encouraging insights into rising above those fears and the hopelessness they can cause, noting that what the world is facing today is a hypercharged crucible experience not unlike what we all face in our lives when more intimate failures and setbacks strike. They key, he and cohost Gary Schneeberger discuss, is finding outlets that create personal calm amid the chaos and continuing to move forward in active combat against the fears that plague you — uncovering the opportunities that exist behind the challenges. “When fear starts coming on,” Fairfax says, “don’t wait for it to grow from an ember into a forest fire.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everybody to the latest episode of Beyond The Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, your cohost of the podcast and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And you have clicked play on a podcast that deals with crucible experiences, those moments in life that are difficult, that are challenging, that can be in fact, quite painful and can change key aspects of your life, change the path of your life, the trajectory of your life. And in this particular episode, while we often talk to guests, in this particular episode, it’s less an experiential conversation with a guest and more of an unpacking of some of the key principles of crucible leadership, which is the organizing construct of Beyond The Crucible, and it is the creation of both the life experience of the host of the program who is here with me and I’m going to bring him in now.
Gary S:
That’s Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, welcome to what I hope is going to be a very, both enlightening and I think hopeful discussion for listeners.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. Great to be here and looking forward to it.
Gary S:
What we’re going to talk about today, Warwick is interesting and it’s timely, and yet it’s also timeless, it’s the idea of fear of the unknown and the power of the fear of the unknown, and not always in a great way, usually not in a great way. And there’s a reason why we’re talking about this right now, let’s be honest. When I said it’s timely, right now as Warwick and I are recording this, we are in shelter at home, and the world, not just the US, the entire world is going through the COVID-19 pandemic, and there is an awful lot of fear of the unknown.
Gary S:
At the same time though, this is a timeless subject because fear of the unknown dates back far before the coronavirus, dates back to the beginning of time. And you can find examples of this idea of, “What’s out there? What could harm me? What could change my life? What could knock me off balance?” Not knowing what to fear sometimes leads you to fear everything, and that makes it that much more devastating. And it’s very interesting, before we dive into the subject, Warwick, I wanted to share with everyone that this isn’t just anecdotal, this idea that fear of the unknown is such a severe fear.
Gary S:
There was actually a study done in the Journal Of Anxiety Disorders in 2016 proving again, that this was not something that just came up in the last several months. And in the Journal Of Anxiety Disorders, they set out to determine if fear of the unknown was, in their words, to borrow a phrase from folks who are aware of the Lord Of The Rings series, if fear of the unknown was one fear to rule them all, to use the language somewhat of the Lord Of The Rings series. And they did some extensive research that I don’t pretend to really understand, except that I read the summary of the research. And what it found was fascinating.
Gary S:
They studied fear of such things as being poorly evaluated, either at work or just by people in social interactions, someone doesn’t like you. They studied that fear to see if that was what they called a fundamental fear. They studied whether or not fear of injury or fear of even death, if that rose to the level of a fear that was that one fear to rule them all, that was so fundamental that was sort of the logo for fear, if you will, And they determined, these researchers who did this study in 2016 for the Journal Of Anxiety Disorders, found that none of those fears were fundamental but that fear of the unknown was.
Gary S:
And again, I don’t pretend to understand any of the science in it, I’m a word guy. But one thing that they said when they determined what were the characteristics, and this is a good place for us to begin to jump off Warwick and talk is, one of the characteristics of what makes a fear fundamental was that it is continuously and normally distributed in the population. Again, not a scientist but a word guy, my translations for that, my layman’s translation is, fear of the unknown is a fear that is always there in a culture and a fear that is widely held throughout the culture.
Gary S:
That to me is what they’re saying. That to me is what makes fear of the unknown such a fundamental fear, such a one fear to rule them all, and the reason why we’re talking about it today, Warwick.
Warwick F:
That’s amazing, really, what Journal Of Anxiety is saying, here you have this fear that’s, according to them is this fundamental fear, and what we’re going through now really across pretty much the whole world with the coronavirus is the fear of the unknown, that’s what we’re facing. So we’re facing one of the toughest challenges. We’ve got challenges on so many levels. Obviously, from a health perspective, you have this virus that came out of nowhere, that nobody has any immunity to, so on one level there is the fear of, “I might get mildly sick, maybe moderately sick, or even severely sick and die.” There is no known cure at the moment. There is no known vaccine, scientists around the world are madly researching as fast as they can and making valiant efforts, but as we speak right now, there’s no scientifically proven cure and a vaccine could be a year or 18 months away.
Warwick F:
Most of us are sheltering in place, we go to the grocery store as little as possible. If you go, wear gloves, wear a mask. Stay inside. So you’ve got the whole health side of the coronavirus, but then you’ve got the economic impact. There’s many people that not only are they at home, they might be getting a paycheck, maybe they’re not. Maybe their company said, “Yeah, we’ll pay you through April, May. We’ll see.” It’s like, “What does we’ll see mean?” And some, whether it’s waiters, some folks have been laid off without having any idea when they’ll be back at work, restaurants, will it be a month, two months, six months, longer?
Warwick F:
How will restaurants even make a living? They make their money by packing them in, packing them in is like something that may not happen for a very long time. So all that’s to say is, there are so many fears from a health, from an economic, from a job, just how long will this go on? And the answer is right now is, we don’t know. It’s almost the ultimate fear of the unknown. There are other fears but this is a textbook example unfortunately, of why the fear of the unknown is so gripping, so paralyzing, if you will.
Gary S:
Right. And one of the things you described is this idea that your mind races in all directions. I’ve heard it described by actors sometimes, and bear with me in this comparison, doing a play from a stage when the audience is in front of you, that’s a little bit easier to pull off in theater in a round, because you’ve got to act in a 360 degree way. And in some ways, in very real ways, what’s going on now is your mind is racing 360 degrees. There is every day a new headline, a new social media post, a new comment you hear from someone, something that causes your mind to go, “What if?” Or, “How about?” Or, “Have we thought of this?”
Gary S:
It made me think of, you’ve all seen, listener, I think those decision trees. You pull up to a stoplight or a stop sign, you can turn left or right and you choose, “I turn right.” And then you go down that, and that leads to a bunch of other decisions that you can make because there’s a park and you can stop or you turn left and there’s a bunch of decisions, there’s a ballpark and you can go, however that works. Those decision trees, it seems like an endless collection of decision trees that has nothing but links and tendrils attached to it. And before too long, your mind can get down to some places where it can be very very, very confusing, very saddening and very tormenting even, to imagine the what ifs that present itself when you’re truly gripped by fear of the unknown.
Warwick F:
That’s so true, Gary. It’s really the ultimate decision tree. It’s an endless collection of decision trees, an endless cycle of potential fears. It is just so much. You look at the news each day and federal government briefings, state government, local government, it’s, “When is the virus going to hit its peak? How bad is it in our area? Maybe it’s a lot worse than I think because cases are unreported. If I get sick, should I go to the local hospital? If I go to the local hospital, a lot of times loved ones come in and I might be there for who knows how long, and how long will it be until I know if I’m sick or not sick?”
Warwick F:
You hear famous folks like the prime minister of Britain, Boris Johnson. At one point, he was in intensive care, and he’s like in his mid 50s. It’s happening to everybody. So you’ve got the endless thoughts about what could happen, the what ifs and, “What do I do if that happens? What about my loved ones?” Especially for ones… I have a mother-in-law in her late 80s whose lungs aren’t particularly good. We all have folks that we’re concerned about. And as I mentioned before, the job front. How long will it be before we get back to work? And what if this? And what of that? “Can I prepare this?”
Warwick F:
And so it’s almost like hundreds or thousands or even millions of fears if you work out all the numbers and all the elements of the decision tree, all the things that could possibly happen that we don’t know and therefore we can’t prepare for what… we can prepare on some level, stay home, be safe, minimize outside contact, there’s some things, but there are a lot of things that we can’t prepare for because we don’t know what’s going to happen. And so that’s where the fear of the unknown is so deadly, you just get paralyzed by the endless decision tree of what ifs without seemingly any way to combat it. That’s why it’s so paralyzing, it just overwhelms our emotional systems to be able to handle.
Gary S:
And the reason why we’re talking about this in the context of crucible leadership, in the context of this podcast, Beyond The Crucible is that in the same way that it’s an endless collection of decision trees, when you’re suffering through, you’re struggling through fear of the unknown. In some ways, it’s an endless selection of possibilities for crucible experiences. Those fears, what we’re fearing as we’re going through this, no matter what it is that is prompting the fear of the unknown, and sometimes it can be not much externally, it’s just fear of change and those kinds of things, it’s a collection of fear of those crucible experiences.
Gary S:
And we talk here about the pain of crucible experiences and how they are hard to bounce back from and you have to learn the lessons of them. But is it fair to say that fear of the unknown is in a very real sense, fear of an endless possibility of crucible experiences across the map?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And while the launching point for this discussion is the coronavirus that we’re going through, based on what the experts tell us, at some point we’ll get through it, the world will go back to work, there’ll be a vaccine, there’ll be cures. The best experts in the medical and scientific field assure us that we will get through it. And so that’s some comfort, so we’ll get through this. But unfortunately, there are always crucibles and it could be at work, maybe your company gets acquired by another company. So what’s going to happen for my job? Maybe middle management or people on the ground floor, maybe we’ll lose our jobs. What’s going to happen?
Warwick F:
Maybe you are going to a new high school or it’s your first day in college coming up, and you’re in another state, it’s the first time you haven’t been living at home. What’s going to happen there? You’ve just got married. It’s seemed really good on the honeymoon, but now you’re actually doing it day in, day out. You just hope for the best and all that. But anytime there’s change, there’s going to be fear. That is just part of life. So just understanding when the fear of the unknown, which is just part of being human, when that happens, how do you deal with that? How do you fight those fears? Because left to themselves, they’re like weeds, they grow all over the place.
Warwick F:
So you can’t let them grow, you got to fight it. It’s a day in, day out. You can’t always determine what’s going to happen at the macro level or health wise or economy, but you can fight your attitude and fears. That is something that you can have some control over.
Gary S:
And we always say on Beyond The Crucible if we’re talking to a guest or we’re just talking to each other, we always say that we deal in crucible experiences, those painful moments in life that can change the trajectory of your life, but we don’t talk about them for the purposes of camping out there and wallowing in them or not being able to move beyond them, we talk about them so that we can learn from them and we can apply the lessons to them to then move forward and live a life of significance. So listener, we are not talking about fear of the unknown and the power of the fear of the unknown, the paralyzing power of the fear of the unknown.
Gary S:
We’re not talking about that so that we can continue to stay there. What Warwick just talked about was we want to offer some ideas, some insights, some hope, some healing to help you, not just in the midst of the coronavirus, but for someone who’s listening to this podcast in three years, the things that are fueling your fear of the unknown. We talk about these things now because we want to help you get beyond them. And Warwick has very recently published a blog which has some really, really excellent insights, Warwick, about how to move beyond fear of the unknown. Share some of those beautiful thoughts.
Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely, Gary. I think it starts at one level with being in the moment. Part of being in the moment each day is, yes, it’s battling your fears, and there are some tips that I’m going to mention here in a moment. It’s being present. We can’t solve tomorrow’s problems. I’m all for planning, but there’s a lot of things you can’t handle. And one of the greatest sources of wisdom in life is just this discipline to say, “I’m going to stay present today. I’m going to work on what I can control, and what I can’t control, I’m going to attempt not to worry about it. So what can I get done today? How can I be present? What are the things I can get done to positively move things forward in my professional life, my personal life? How can I be present with my family?”
Warwick F:
We live in an unprecedented time where many of us are having more time with our families on a 24 hour basis than we ever had, whether we have young kids, teenage kids, older kids that may be living with us, just being present with them. The daily battle is key. And so part of that daily battle, it really begins with what I’d say is reflection or meditation and prayer, and that’ll be different for everybody. For me, I read my Bible each day, I’ll pray, reflect, maybe listen to some music, some worship music. I’ve different rhythms to try and center myself.
Warwick F:
Others, maybe it’s yoga or just some form of meditation, maybe it’s reading a favorite book. I heard one person recently say that they love memorizing some of the speeches of Abraham Lincoln, who obviously we all admire, whether it’s his Gettysburg Address, “Four score and seven years ago,” or what have you. Maybe it’s some of the sayings of Nelson Mandela. We all have different ways, but that’s certainly one is just center yourself in some sayings, some teachings, prayer, meditation, words from great leaders. Something that really pulls you back to your core, to your central beliefs. It just helps to calm yourself. So that’s certainly a big one.
Warwick F:
I think for many of us, we can still walk. We can’t walk in big groups, but whether it’s around your neighborhood, maybe it’s a local park. We want appropriately distance, but I think for many of us, we can still get outside and there’s something about being in nature and the birds, trees just being in that environment, just feeling the gentle wind, I think that can be a very helpful. Other tips will include… I love music and I love all kinds of music, I have somewhat eclectic tastes from classical to swing, jazz, even ragtime, more popular music. Obviously, I mentioned worship music. All different kinds of music.
Warwick F:
But whatever music is your genre, that you really love and that calms you and just takes you away to a familiar place that you love, music can really do that, I think that is helpful. And while we can’t be with family, extended family or friends in the way that we have been, certainly we are around our immediate family. Just take time to be present in ways that many people have maybe two jobs and they’re working all kinds of hours, kids maybe in high school, college studying and having all sorts of extracurricular activities, so we have a unique time to be present and be with, to play, hopefully to find a way to laugh, amidst the fear.
Warwick F:
And for those who are not present, with technology, whether it’s FaceTime, Zoom, or many other different means, we can actually connect with family members all over the country and indeed all over the world. And so that’s very helpful.
Gary S:
It is. And in fact, I, as I’ve said as a word guy, I have rejected the phrase social distancing at this time. I understand the concept and I’m not saying, please don’t hear me, listeners, saying I’m rejecting social distancing. What I’m rejecting is this idea that however it came up, social distancing isn’t what we need. We need physical distancing, that’s what we need in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. But more than ever, we need social connection and those things that Warwick talked about, leveraging technology to be able to connect with people.
Gary S:
I saw a beautiful, beautiful photo on Instagram of a son of an elderly father who was in a nursing home, and he couldn’t see his father because of the restrictions on visitation. So he sat out, he sat on a ledge outside the window of his father’s room and called him up on the phone and talked to him. And it was just a beautiful picture of how social connection can still happen in the reality of social distancing. There are still ways to leverage technology. And one of the beautiful things about that, we’ve all seen the picture in a restaurant. You go in, there’s a family of four, mom, dad and two kids and everybody’s staring at their cell phone, everybody’s looking at their phone and they’re not interacting.
Gary S:
Technology, these things that were supposed to bring us closer together have in many ways brought us further apart. And one of the great opportunities we have in this time right now of the pandemic, one of the great opportunities we have is to be able to seize back control of technology to bring us closer together, not farther apart. And that’s one of those things that even in fear of the unknown, we can look to be hopeful about because it speaks to a better future when this is all over.
Warwick F:
It’s so true. And it’s funny, sometimes technology can help us get together in ways, maybe we haven’t normally because we’re stuck at home and we’re pining for social interaction. Just as an example, about a week or so ago, my daughter said, “Well, why don’t we have a Zoom call with mom’s family?” And my wife has four brothers and a sister and there all over the place from Tennessee, to Iowa, to Illinois, Ohio. They’re all over the map and so it’s not easy for us all to get together. Well, surprise, surprise, they were all available. They all turned up and they love just chatting in ways that… Maybe once a year we’ll all get together somewhere or we try to, but it’s hard.
Warwick F:
In fact, we’re going to do another one tonight, funnily enough, that my daughter also said, “Hey, let’s organize.” So that’s really helpful. Some other couple of tips. One is, as we combat this whole concept of fear, I grew up, as most listeners know, in a newspaper family in Australia, so I follow the news, politics, economics very closely, always how I love being informed, it’s just part of my culture and upbringing. And I think it’s very important to be informed about what’s happening with right now, coronavirus, health, economy, Federal, state, local, that’s important, but not too much. You can listen to news channels 24/7, and the more you do, it just gets overwhelming. It’s like, “Oh my gosh, the world’s going to end it. What about this? And what about that?”
Warwick F:
So stay informed. I don’t know if it’s five minutes a day, half an hour, an hour, whatever works for you, but if you feel like, “Okay, I’ve got enough information,” and the fear meter starts creeping up, it’s like, “Okay, is this going to serve me by keeping on listening and watching this news channel or radio or whatever it is? And often the answer is actually no. So just be disciplined, stay informed, but don’t keep plugged in 24/7, it just drive most of us crazy. And another really important thing, we’ve talked a lot about reflection and music and walking in nature, and that’s all very important, but one of the most important things is keep moving forward.
Warwick F:
It feels like we can be paralyzed and for some of us that have virtual businesses that may be easier for some than others, but whether it’s professionally or personally, maybe there are some things at work that you never had a chance to get to, start thinking about planning, “Hey, what are some plans I need to do?” Maybe you’re in a job that’s not really that satisfying, well, think, “Okay, I’m stuck at home now, let me think about, well, what do I want to do? What is a job that better fits my skills, that I’m passionate about?” As we often talk about, helps us lead a life of significance. So think of every day as an opportunity. And that’s one of the things I think we’ll talk about is turning challenges into opportunities professionally and personally.
Warwick F:
Every day think about, “Okay, how can I move the ball forward?” Because we’re in the present and we’re focused on getting something done, it helps with fear. And just anecdotally, one of the things I want to mention is, because I’m somebody that have a creative mindset, I’m not creative artistically necessarily, but I’m always thinking of things and imagining, maybe reflecting, dreaming a bit, my mind is naturally always going at a fairly fast pace, which is not always good, which means that in terms of that whole fear branch stuff we talked about, left to its own desires, it would be on overdrive. And so because I’m wired that way, I have to be very careful.
Warwick F:
And so by channeling my brain, which I can’t stop, it’s just the way I’m wired, in ways of obviously, do the meditation and the walking and listening to music, “Okay, how can I move things forward professionally? Who do I need to get ahold of?” Connecting with family, that helps me, just keep my mind focused on areas that’s actually productive. So there’s actually opportunities amidst the challenges.
Gary S:
Absolutely. And there’s an article that Forbes Magazine did a few years back about how you deal with… This was done in the context of change in the workplace, change in your professional life, but it was that fear of the unknown, change in professional life, as you talked about earlier, Warwick, can be very fear of the unknown centric because you just don’t know what the new boss is going to do, he’s going to bring his own people on board, etc, etc. One of the things Forbes said that dovetails nicely with what you just explained, Warwick, is that, one way to overcome fear of the unknown is to acknowledge your fears by writing them down on paper so that you have them in what they say is objective form and can stop dwelling on them.
Gary S:
One of the things I’ve just had to do with my computer is like offload a bunch of heavy files because it was cutting down the ability of my computer to do the processes that needed to do for me to get work done. In the same way, you can offload those fears, write them down, get them in tangible form so that you can stop dwelling on them. Then Forbes advises, you can go through each one and jot down what you would do in the event that fear came to pass. You can actually spend some time processing them out in logical ways, not in necessarily overly emotional ways. And what you’ll find, many, many times, they say here, it diffuses the emotional angst, but also you can come to see that those fears, that unknown might not be that likely to occur.
Gary S:
You can move some unknowns off the plate a little bit. I’m with you, Warwick, I have a very active imagination. I’m the kind of guy that in general times, 10 years ago, if I had a bad headache or my shoulder hurt, I couldn’t go to the internet to look up the symptoms to see what was wrong with me because it was either a common cold or I had some deadly disease. And it’s that kind of mindset that I have too, and the idea of jotting down those things and separating the possibilities from the things that really are flights of fancy, I think can be extraordinarily helpful, but offloading those emotions from your head to paper can really free up some space in your head to focus on some of the solutions you’ve been talking.
Warwick F:
That’s such a great point. I can remember in the past, and we all do it differently, there are times when being a person of faith, I would just write down my fears and instead of hopefully not a mythical conversation with God, hopefully actually it was, because very few of us hear an audible voice, but I would just write it down what I was fearing and anxious about, and then in some sense, I would just sense the Lord’s leading about what his response was, which it might be as simple as, “Warwick, I have you, I’m with you.” Maybe an objective perspective with a little bit of a twist on that, but there are different ways of doing it. And I agree with you, Gary, that just writing it down and then objectively looking at it, and writing what if that happened, what would I do about it.
Warwick F:
Other ways I think it helps often I’m somebody that I like journaling and all that, but I also like talking with others, sometimes it helps me think by verbally processing with other people. So at times when I’d been fearful about things, I’ll say to my wife, sometimes it’s as simple or as complex as, “I’m feeling anxious and fearful, but I’m not sure what it’s about.” And for me, it drives me crazy when I’m fearful and anxious and I don’t even know what it’s about, I can’t formulate it, then I can’t do anything about it. And so we’ll talk about it and because she knows me, “Oh, is it this? Is it that? I think maybe it’s this.” And nine times out of 10, she nails it, and then she talks me through it and then I sort of calm down. So that’s certainly one.
Warwick F:
And with our kids is a good example. I’ve had kids go to college or applying to graduate school, and inevitably, there’s the fear of the new, and so we will go through it, “Okay, well what’s the pros and cons of this versus that? And let’s talk about those fears.” And it’s easy for me to be calm about it because it’s not my life. So I can objectively offer some counsel and thoughts and advice whether it’s in decision making or fears. I think that’s where this whole concept of world as a community, if ever we need our community, it’s right now, both journaling is helpful and just friends and family that we can talk with, be honest with, if you’re fearful, just admit it because the other person is probably just as scared as you are, but they don’t want to admit it.
Warwick F:
And it’s not saying and you do it to everybody, but if they’re really close friends and family, it’s okay to say, “I’m anxious,” and maybe, “How are you doing?” That’s one of the other things is, when you talk about your fears, but also hear other people’s fears and you can be present with them, counsel with them, pray, meditate with them, whatever works for you, that’s helpful too because it gets your mind off yourself. So I think it’s just being honest about your fears, talking about it, whether it’s in a journal or to other people, hearing other people’s fears, helping them. Somebody said once, “When fear is named, it’s loses its power.” And so there is something about that. And I think as I said earlier, it is a daily battle, it’s a bit like when you start getting a cold or whatever, yeah, there’s no cure for the common cold, but you can still have vitamin C or lots of rest or whatever it is you think might help.
Warwick F:
Same with fear is when it starts coming on, don’t wait for it to grow from an ember into a full forest fire, deal with it early on, use whatever mechanism, we’ve mentioned a bunch, whether it’s journaling, talking to friends, listening to music, praying, walk in nature, whatever. All of these are tools, but just combat it. It’s a war, combat it early on, don’t let it take root. It’s a lot easier to deal with it when it’s a small little ember than a massive forest fire. So it’s a war, it requires discipline, proactivity, and yeah, you just got to keep at it every day.
Gary S:
Those are extremely excellent points, and listener, I hope you’re hearing in these words, hope. If you tuned in at the outset and you were fearing the unknown, you were gripped by fear and one of the things you needed to get your mind off what you were racing around fearing and you clicked play on this podcast to help you do that, just to distract yourself, hopefully, we’ve done more than that in this discussion and actually helped you begin to see ways to use Warwick’s precisely chosen and very, very correct word to combat the fear of the unknown. Hopefully, you’ve gleaned some tips out of this.
Gary S:
And Warwick, before we go, I do want to explore this for a little bit, what happens, what’s the benefit? We’ve talked about how fear of the unknown is a fundamental fear, even greater according to at least one scientific survey, is greater than the fear of death. We’ve talked about ways that you can engage your mind and body to help you overcome that, but in the last few minutes we have, share with listeners from your perspective, what’s the benefit of that? What happens when you come on the other side of fear? It’s the same thing as we talk about when you come out of the other side of your crucible experience. There’s benefits to that, there’s hope in that, there’s healing in that. What can that look like for our listeners who are struggling right now with fear of unknown?
Warwick F:
It’s a good question. When you’re faced with the crucible learning to deal with it, it’s almost like a muscle memory for an athlete, it helps you learn how to deal with crucibles next time, it’s never easy. I can think of an example of my own life it’s not so much related to fear of the unknown, but forgiveness, just because of growing up in a wealthy family, media business, I think I said earlier on a podcast, it used to feel like I had a sign on my back in middle school that said, “Betray me.” And so I’ve had a lot of practice at forgiveness, and I’ve said earlier that if you don’t forgive, the person that most hurts is you, it corrodes your soul. And that’s a whole another discussion. But the point is, the more I’ve done it, something happens. Yeah, it still hurts, but I was like, “Okay, that hurt. I got to forgive and move on.” And it has gotten easier. I have to admit, it has gotten easier.
Warwick F:
So I think dealing with crucibles can be the same way if you use some of these methods of just combating it every day, whatever tools work for you, whether it’s listening to music, prayer, walk in nature, journaling, talking with friends, it does help. It gives you hope that, “Okay, I can handle this, I can deal with this.” I’m reminded of a friend of mine, Margie Warrell, has a recent book called, You’ve Got This! It’s nice when you’re able to deal with something and say, “You know what, I’ve got this. It’s unnerving, but I can combat it.” And one of the keys with crucibles, which I admit is not easy to do in the moment, is to switch our perspective, it’s seeing it as a challenge, which it is, but saying, “Okay, what’s the opportunity here? What are some things that this challenging circumstance, which I never would have chosen to go through, how can I see some opportunity in that?”
Warwick F:
And it could be on a personal front, as we’ve discussed, chance to spend more time with family than maybe we have before, maybe it’s a chance to connect with friends and distant family members who were never available but now they’re just dying for communication with another human. Maybe it’s a chance to say, “Okay, where do I want to go in my professional life? Where do I want to take my business? What plans do I want to jot down that will really take things to the next level when things get back to normal,” which all the experts say, at some point, life will get back to some semblance of normal, maybe it’s a new normal, but there are always, or very often, there are opportunities amid the challenges, personally and professionally where we can take advantage of it
Warwick F:
And so when crucibles happen, there are typically those opportunities to turn a challenge into something that can be beneficial. So it’s learning those tools and exercising that muscle memory so that fear has less of a hold and we can reduce the fear and see those challenges as opportunities we can actually take advantage of. So exercising that muscle memory on our mindset, that’s probably the single most important thing we can do when faced with a crucible like this.
Gary S:
That is an excellent place for us to wrap up our conversation today. I want to reiterate to the listener before I summarize what we heard today, that we are talking about, Warwick and I are talking about the challenge of the fear of the unknown, why it’s so powerful, why it’s so fundamental as a fear. We are talking about this in the context right now, as we record this of the COVID-19 pandemic, but that’s not the only thing we’re ever going to be afraid of that involves the unknown. The things that we’ve talked about here were relevant prior to COVID-19, and will be relevant after that because that’s just one thing. Fear of the unknown is a foundational fear.
Gary S:
One of the things I discovered in my research, H.P. Lovecraft, an author said this about fear, “The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.” He was speaking in the context of that’s what makes horror fiction and horror movies so scary is that the fear of the unknown, what’s behind that door, and those fears will always be with us. So as you look at that, whether you’re listening to this right now in 2020 or you’re listening to this five years from now, here are some key takeaways I think from our conversation that you should take with you because I think it will offer you hope.
Gary S:
The first one is to realize you are not alone, science proves you’re not alone. We talked about a study in the journal of anxiety disorders that said, “Fear of the unknown is a very real thing and a fundamental fear in life.” You’re not weak because you’re going through it, you’re in pain, and that makes you just like me and just like Warwick. So remember that as you move forward. The second thing is, Warwick said it, you can’t control what happens to you, but you can always control how you respond to it. And what Warwick exhorted us to do is to be present in your life and be prepared to combat that fear and not to wait to do it.
Gary S:
To combat that fear and do it quickly is one of the best ways to keep it from just… We talked about endless chains of what ifs going on, it’s like weeds growing. Go get rid of those weeds early, combat it early so it doesn’t consume your thinking, and you can move forward to what comes next. And then I think the last takeaway that is really important is, head on over to crucibleleadership.com, and look in the blog section for the blog that Warwick wrote most recently on Choosing Hope: Eight Tips to Move Beyond Fear. Warwick unpacks in greater detail some of the things he talked about in our podcast today to help you find ways to combat the fear and combat it early. Again, that’s crucibleleadership.com, and the blog is titled Choosing Hope: Eight Tips to Move Beyond Fear.
Gary S:
Well, thank you for spending the time with us today listeners. Not the most pleasant conversation to have at the outset, but again, in Crucible Leadership with Beyond The Crucible, our goal is to talk about difficult moments, to talk about those things that can be paralyzing to us in some cases, but not to talk about them so that we can just commiserate with one another, but to talk about them so that we can, to use Warwick’s excellent words, we can combat the effects of those crucible experiences. We can combat the effects, and in this case of fear of the unknown, and we can move beyond it.
Gary S:
And the reason that we want to move beyond it is because even though it feels right now like this could be the end of your story, that this could be, “This is it, I’m convinced that whatever I’m thinking might happen is going to be really, really, really bad and it’s going to have a lifelong negative effect in our life.” We talk to people all the time on this podcast who’ve had that experience because something’s happened to them and they felt that way, but they’ve pushed through, they’ve learned the lesson of their crucible. They found out what it is that’s on the other side, they’ve pushed through, they’ve combated the fear, and they’ve emerged on the other side in a better place with, as Warwick said, opportunity that they see and they seize.
Gary S:
So always remember your crucible experiences are painful, your fears are real, but they’re not the end of your story. They are in fact, they can in fact, and they are often, if you really press in, they’re not the end of your story, they’re the beginning of a new chapter in your story that leads to something far more joyous than fear is fearful, and that is a life of significance.
His father died when he was 9. Not long after, his mother’s drug addiction forced him out of his home to live with his grandparents. Money was tight, school was not his strong suit, and by his late teens Trent Griffin-Braaf was running with the wrong crowd. By 19, he was serving 4-12 years in prison for selling drugs. But he tells Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax that when he had to attend his grandmother’s funeral in shackles, unable to hug grieving loved ones because of the chains, he decided he would not allow being locked up to be his legacy. He seized the academic opportunities prison offered, and when he was paroled after three years he dedicated himself to learning all he could to build a life he could be proud of. He landed a job at a hotel cleaning toilets, spent hours soaking up from co-workers the ins-and-outs of their jobs — and in a few years had become the hotel’s general manager. But he had a grander vision — and risked all he had achieved to launch an airport shuttle serving Schenectady, N.Y.’s hotels. The business took off, and continues to grow: It now serves former inmates in the area not only with assistance in getting to and from work, but helps them find work that will allow them to build their own lives of significance. What has his journey taught him? “I believe in my heart that from doing good you get good,” he says.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome, everybody, to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. You have clicked play, clicked subscribe, pushed the button, made your phone start playing audio on a podcast that deals in crucible experiences. Crucible experiences are those events in life that can change the trajectory of your life. They’re painful. They’re traumatic. You don’t know why they happen to you. They can leave you feeling sometimes like you just want to lie in bed and bury your head and not move on. They’re things that are failures, setbacks, traumas, tragedies, those kinds of things that just knock you off balance.
Gary S:
But here’s the good news. We talk about those things, not so we can wallow in them, not so we can stay there, but we talk about them so that we can look for ways to get beyond them. One of the things that we do is interview people who have had crucible experiences that were quite traumatic, that were quite a bit of a setback, that changed the course of their lives, but they have bounced back from those crucible experiences and they are now living a new and fulfilling chapter in their lives. Our purpose in talking to folks like our guest today, who we’ll introduce in just a moment, our purpose in doing that is to bring hope to listeners, no matter what your circumstances. If you’ve had a crucible, you can glean hope from the conversations we have here.
Gary S:
To guide that conversation, as always, is the architect, the founder, the Lego master, if you will, of the build that is Crucible Leadership, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we’ve got a good show today, I think, that’s really going to touch people.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Good to be here, Gary, and great to have Trent here.
Trent B:
Hey. How you guys doing?
Gary S:
It’s great to see you, Trent. I’m going to give you the introduction you deserve.
Gary S:
The Trent that Warwick referred to is Trent Griffin-Braaf. Trent is the 36-year-old husband and father of two, and Trent was released from prison more than a decade ago. He was locked up for more than three years for selling drugs. This is a quote that Trent gave to a media outlet in Schenectady, New York, where he lives. This is what he said about that experience. “I knew I didn’t want to go back to prison, and I was willing to do whatever I had to do not to do that,” he said.
Gary S:
After release, Trent took multiple low-wage temp jobs before getting into the hotel industry. He worked his way up from cleaner to general manager of a hotel in Rotterdam in New York. When he noticed no hotel in the area offered shuttle service to the airport, he saw a business opportunity. That’s how his business, his thriving business, I might say, Tech Valley Hospitality Shuttle, was born.
Gary S:
Trent, welcome to Beyond the Crucible. Warwick, take it away.
Trent B:
Hey, guys. Thank you for having me.
Warwick F:
Well, Trent, it’s great to have you. You have a remarkable story. I’d love to hear about your story, your background, growing up, and how that led to just the crucible experience that you had. Yeah, so tell us a bit about Trent and how you grew up, and yeah, a bit about your life there.
Trent B:
I was born in The Bronx, New York. At a young age, my father passed away, when I was around nine years old. Eight or nine. Yeah, nine years old. From that point, we moved from New York City to upstate New York. That’s where we had more family at.
Trent B:
It was tough. I went from having two parents to having just my mother by herself. In due time, we found out that my mother even had some demons she was fighting off with addiction, which even caused me for a short period of my life to be living with my grandparents. It was a lot of change.
Trent B:
Then even once my mother came back, we were struggling to get by. I was telling my wife recently, I remember sharing a room with my mother in my teenage years, sharing a bunk bed, to be more specific. It was a battle. One thing I can say is I never felt like we had without, though. My mother did a good job of making sure the love was there.
Trent B:
Another thing I knew was I definitely didn’t want to live in poverty my whole life, so I kind of became infatuated with money at a young age and I found creative ways to make money, even lunch money. My mother would give me lunch money. I would save it until I had enough to buy a pair of the jeans and clothes. I remember going to school every day and eating everybody else’s lunch, so that way I could save mine, selling candy bars and lollipops until we got a written letter saying I couldn’t do it anymore.
Trent B:
I was always infatuated with making money, and after high school, went to college, did a semester, flunked out, just playing around, and came back home. That’s when I got introduced to the underworld, I would say. Now I’m probably 18 years old or so, and I started to just hustle and sell drugs. Everyone that I seen who had a lot of money, that’s what they were doing, and it was attainable and something you could touch. You could talk to those people, and so I did. Quickly, I went from low-level selling of narcotics to higher level pretty quickly, almost like I had a mentorship program in that.
Trent B:
But that didn’t last long. Probably a year, year and a half run of that, and then I found myself incarcerated. Never had a run-in with the law before that in my life, but because of the amounts I was selling, I ended up getting a four to 12-year prison sentence. Here you got this 19-year-old, maybe 20-year-old kid at that time, who never had any problem with the law, was scared to death, because now I’m going to prison for four to 12 years, and all I could think about was 12 years just being gone.
Trent B:
So I go to prison. I quickly learn how to adapt in that environment, but one huge blessing I had was I was accepted into a college program through Marist College through the prison I was in. That was the first time in my adulthood that I seen I could really get good grades. I was the top of the class. I took pride in it, and I started to really have a passion for learning and education. That’s when I really started to read a lot more. I never, in prison, tried to make plans of what I was going to do next because I really didn’t know what challenges were in front of me, but I just knew that I wanted to prepare myself and be able to be the best version of me once I was released.
Trent B:
Oh, go ahead.
Warwick F:
Yeah, that’s a remarkable story. Take us back to your childhood, because obviously you’re married and have kids, and your kids, I’m sure, are growing up very differently than you grew up.
Trent B:
Definitely.
Warwick F:
They probably know something about how you grew up, but they can’t understand. They can’t relate. I’m sure you’re grateful that they can’t relate or understand, but I’m sure you’re trying to love them unconditionally, care for them, not just give them food and shelter, but emotional support, encouragement, “You can be whoever you want to be,” all of the things that any parent wants to do.
Warwick F:
Obviously, your dad died at a young age. He wasn’t able to provide a positive male role model. Your mother, I’m assuming, probably had a good heart, but with the drugs, it takes that out of the loop a bit. Talk about how you’re growing up, and did you have any positive role models, whether it’s mother, grandparents, cousins, somebody that gives you hope? Were there any positive role models there?
Trent B:
Definitely. I have a very tight-knit family, even to this day. My mother, she has four sisters. I know they all speak on a daily basis. The family group chats. My grandparents. My uncles. I had an uncle who passed away since, Uncle Odell, who I was really close with. My grandfather. Definitely had a lot of good role models.
Trent B:
Even my mother. Once she even got through her demons, I seen her climb in from an entry-level position to being a vice president of a company. I seen her go on to retire from the state as one of the top budget analysts. I’ve seen the growth even from that, and that was something I’ve always been able to pull from, was that strength. Again, I’m just blessed to have a very tight-knit family, even to this day. We’re not like a typical family. I can definitely say that.
Warwick F:
Wow. That’s wonderful. Through some of these challenges with losing your dad so young and a mother, good heart, but with, at the time, when you were small anyway, addiction problems, so talk about how you took a road that, in hindsight, probably wasn’t the most helpful road. There’s always a reason why. We could try and guess, but I don’t think we want to guess. Just tell us why you took that road that led to a lot of other challenges.
Trent B:
I think it was a mixture of things. For me, one, at a young age I was so motivated by money, I would do anything for it. Plus, not having a father figure there, I think just hanging out with the boys was the replacement. I would just, every day, hanging out with the guys, and that’s what we would do. I felt that love and that bond there, but definitely was not a good thing. It wasn’t good just because to even put the poison in the community and to just be bringing that negativity around, but even bigger than that, it just wasn’t good in terms of a setback.
Trent B:
Unfortunately, you could make decisions at a young age that can alter the course of your life, and that’s ultimately what I did. I put myself in that position that few rarely come out and turn into a success story from. Going to prison, more specifically, does it because then you have this criminal record, that even though you do some time, and your life is paused, but the world continues to grow and go, but even upon being released, they still hold it against you. It’s just a huge setback that if I could… I tell the youth all the time, “Learn from my mistakes and from mistakes of others. That’s a path you don’t want to take, because it is very hard to get out of.”
Warwick F:
Yeah, and I know in some states, they talk about three strikes, but I guess in some ways it’s really one strike, that for a lot of employers and a lot of people, it’s like, “Once a criminal, always a criminal.” “No, but really I’ve rehabilitated.” “We don’t want to take a chance. Stay away.” There’s that attitude, which is often not fair.
Warwick F:
Sadly, this is probably a familiar story in some ways, is that maybe you had some good relatives, but the person who’s in the home day in, day out, your dad wasn’t there, and you’re hanging out with your buddies, which, in the neighborhood, probably weren’t constructive. You want love and affirmation from somewhere, and it’s like part of being part of this group is maybe doing things that are not helpful, but I’m sure you can look back and see it. I don’t know, some people would say, “Well, it’s probably kind of inevitable in some ways, if you want to get affirmation from somewhere.” I don’t know, I can’t really think of a particularly good question here, other than… Please, go ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
I’ve got something I think is interesting. Trent, we’ve had eight to 10 folks that we’ve talked to on the podcast so far, and each of them has a crucible experience or experiences that they talk about. One of the things that strikes me about your story is how many crucible experiences came in such rapid succession. Your father passes away. Your mother has addiction problems. You have to move from where you’re from to a different city. You live with your grandparents. I read in a story that you really loved basketball, but as you put it, you stopped growing at some point too soon, and you couldn’t pursue that dream. Then you needed money, and you took a wrong turn and you end up in prison.
Gary S:
For listeners out there, I really want to key in on this, because listeners who may feel like the crucibles have never stopped coming, they keep coming, they’ve come over and over again, and I just listed off six or seven of them for you before you were out of high school or before you were out of college, before you were in your 20s, I want listeners to be able to hear you say this, so that they can find hope themselves if they’re like, “I’m done.” If ever a series of crucibles, in any guest that we’ve talked to, if ever a series of crucibles was going to be “Okay, I’m done. I can’t do this. I keep running into brick walls no matter what I do. I’m going to give up,” why didn’t Trent give up?
Trent B:
Well, I didn’t give up. A, I’m not a quitter, and in anything I do, I want to see it out. But I didn’t give up because I knew I wanted more for myself. I remember being inside the prison and talking to gentlemen who… I was a baby. They looked at me as the young pup. I remember being around some older gentlemen who… They were never coming home from prison, or there were others who were on this consistent roller coaster coming in and out. My very first day in the prison, we were walking in the tunnels, and I remember the captain said… He made an announcement, and he said he wanted to thank us for being there. He said it was because of us that his children were able to go through college and he was able to pay his mortgage, and he could guarantee that he’ll see a bunch of us continuously throughout his life and our lives.
Trent B:
That never sat well with me. I knew statistically he was right, but I didn’t want to be a part of that statistic to continue to put his family through college and to make sure his mortgage was paid. I’d rather have those problems of my own and be able to do that for my family. I was just motivated to not be stuck on that consistent path, and I was really literally at one point just at my wits’ end and said, “No matter what I have to do, I won’t put myself in a situation where that can be a reality of me returning.”
Warwick F:
What’s interesting to me is often I find when people turn from a crucible experience, they make a decision. They make a choice. Now, you could’ve said, which I think would be quite justified, “Hey, a lot of this is not my fault. Not my fault that my dad died. I grew up in a neighborhood where, to hang out with any kind of buddies, many of them aren’t going to be on the right track. Was that my fault? I wanted money to get out of there. What other options are there? Not too many. I go to prison. People are going to see me as this criminal forever.”
Warwick F:
You could go into “This is not my fault. It’s not fair,” and be angry. “Why should I try? Because life in the world continues to work against me.” Yet life doesn’t have to be fair for you to say, “Yeah, it wasn’t fair. A lot of things weren’t right, but I’m going to move on. I’m not going to get anger and resentment stop me from moving on.” Talk about how you decided not to say everything was fine and okay, but not let resentment, anger pull you down and say, “I’m not going to let that pull me down. I’m going to move forward.” How did you get off that resentment bandwagon and get into “I’m moving forward”?
Trent B:
Oh, I remember clearly. I don’t know the date, but I remember clearly talking to a buddy of mine and I just told him, I said… Even upon being released and coming back, I was still taking some risks that could’ve landed me back in jail, just chasing fast money. But I remember specifically one day talking to a buddy of mine, and I said, “Bro, I’m not ever going to sell drugs again. I don’t care what I’ve got to do. I’m never, ever doing this again. I can’t.” Literally, from that day, I never did, and that was never, ever again.What got me to that point was the scare of a long-term incarceration. That’s literally what got me together, by seeing individuals that I know, who I was actually incarcerated with, come home around the same time I did and then go back for 10, 12-year sentences. I couldn’t do it.
Trent B:
The ironic thing is it’s two different worlds, like you said. In one world, you’re crucified for this. For going to jail, you can’t get a job. But then in another world, you’re glorified, because you went to prison and you didn’t tell on anybody. It’s a weird mixture, but I had to disassociate myself from that and being that prideful guy of “Yeah, I didn’t. Look at me,” and have my chest out, and really humble myself to the point where, you know what, I’m willing to take these temp jobs and do whatever I have to do. That actually began the next stage of my life, was removing myself from other negativity, humbling myself to the maximum, and taking these temp jobs, taking jobs where I’m making literally minimum wage, I’m working all day long, but going there every single day and working as hard as I possibly could and putting my best foot forward.
Gary S:
That’s a great pivot point. That’s when things turned around for you. But one of the things I read in one of the stories that I looked at, Trent, which really fascinated me, there was a story that said what really helped you in that turning point was that your first daughter was on the way and you missed her birth. I want listeners to hear… Normally, what Warwick and I will do, because we’re both obsessive about this, if there’s any background noise at all when we’re recording, we’ll tell the producers on the back end, “Take that out. There’s a hum in the radiator.” But as we’ve been talking, it’s been beautiful because I hear your family sitting around having conversation, and I hope we don’t take that out, because that family was the thing that led to that turnaround that you just described, where you said, “I will take these jobs because I’m going to create a life, not just for me, but for my family.” Does that strike a chord with you, Warwick, as you hear that?
Warwick F:
Yeah. Trent, I’d love to hear the role that your family, and while you were in prison, just talk about that fact when helping you bounce back and give you motivation.
Trent B:
Two things happened in prison that changed my life forever, one being I lost my grandmother. While I was serving that four to 12-year sentence, I lost my grandmother. I had a conversation with her the night before she passed. She told me she was dying, and it was hard. But going to the funeral with my hands and my feet shackled, seeing my family like that and not even really being able to hold them the way we normally would and embrace each other, that was heartbreaking. That was literally heartbreaking for me.
Trent B:
Then the second was, like you were saying, Gary, I had missed my oldest daughter’s birth, because during that time before the transaction, before I said I’m never doing this again, I found myself rearrested and fighting a new case, which ultimately was thrown out for illegal search and seizure. But during that time, my daughter was born. I got incarcerated a month before my wife had her, so I missed that. I got her name tattooed across my chest right here. She’s the only one, and that’s the reason why.
Trent B:
Yeah, those two things just told me, “This can’t be my life. I can’t allow this to be my life. I’m not going to miss out on my children’s lives.” Sometimes me and my wife, we reflect on that. My oldest daughter today is 11 years old. She’ll be 12 next month. If I didn’t beat that case, they were offering me 12 years. Ultimately, I would just be coming home right around now. Our life today would be nonexistent. The company would be nonexistent.
Trent B:
We actually have three daughters. The youngest, she’s 18 months. That’s probably why you didn’t see it in the other stuff. I wouldn’t even have my other two daughters if I would’ve continued to possibly gamble my life in those ways. The big thing I realized was my motivation was money, but life is more important than money. That was a pivot point, and it was the point of no return at that point.
Warwick F:
I imagine as you’re going through this, being in chains at your grandmother’s funeral and then missing your oldest daughter’s birthday, you probably thought, “Well, I know what it’s like to grow up without a dad,” and you probably said to yourself, “That’s not going to be my kids. I’m going to be there for them. I’m going to help them learn to ride a bike, be there at their recitals, be there at their football, baseball games. I’m going to help coach. I’m going to be present. When they said, ‘Hey, a kid beat me up at school’ or ‘I got a bad grade,’ I’m going to be there to console them, to advise them, to say, ‘Hey, that’s okay. Tomorrow is another day.’ I’m going to be there.” That had to have been a huge motivation, saying, “My kids will grow up differently than I did,” right?
Trent B:
Definitely. 100%. Me and my wife, we talk about it. We have similar upbringings in terms of single-family households, and one thing we are both fully committed to is assuring that we have a family, because that’s one thing we both felt we didn’t have in the household. I couldn’t agree more.
Warwick F:
I want to just shift a bit to what you’re doing professionally. One of the amazing things, you started work in cleaning and eventually working up to being general manager of a hotel, which that in itself just feels like a miracle, given where you grew up and prison and all. But there are some people, again, that have this attitude of “The world owes me. I didn’t deserve to lose a dad or to have a mother that at some point had addiction issues.” Yet you felt like, “Hey, I will do whatever it takes, no matter how low the job is.” It feels like there’s a sense of humility in your story, “I don’t care whether life is fair or not fair. I’m going to do whatever it takes, no matter how humbling or even humiliating.” A lot of people need to hear that, as they might feel like the world owes them or “I’m too good for…” Talk about your attitude as you started to work your way up.
Trent B:
The attitude, again, it was humble. I did have to humble myself completely. I was someone who was known for being kind of flashy, having nice cars, jewelry, girls, stuff like that. Once I made that decision and dove fully into “I’m never going to do this again, and I’m going to do whatever it takes to be successful just working hard,” that’s what it became. I actually isolated myself from everyone.
Trent B:
In the midst of all of this that was going on, as I was transitioning at working and scrubbing toilets by day working in the hotels, at night I was actually throwing parties. I would throw these big concert series in different venues. I was actually exploring my entrepreneur spirit at that point, but socially distancing myself from everyone at the same time. I would do this. Not too many people even knew who was throwing these parties. I wasn’t out social about it, but I was starting to build a reputation and a brand for myself in the club world, club scene, in terms of the owners. But at work, I was humbling myself enough to clean those toilets every single day.
Trent B:
There was some nights… I remember there was a night I made like $23,000 doing an after-party with Kevin Hart, but then the very next day, here I am scrubbing toilets in a hotel, being told if I could bring someone coffee. I really learned to humble myself to the highest level during this transition. The one thing that I was more so focused on was being the best form of me at every single thing I did. So-
Gary S:
And-
Trent B:
Go right ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
One of the ways that you did that, when you and I talked earlier, is that, yes, you started out scrubbing toilets, but when you were finished scrubbing toilets, what did you do? You were out talking to the front desk clerk. You were learning as much as you could about that business, right?
Trent B:
That’s right. In everything I did, I started to always just continue to learn. I think that college in prison started that for me. I would go to work. I would work with the front desk staff at night, and she would train me on how to check people in, how to answer the phones. I would come home, if I wasn’t throwing an event, and me and my wife, she would be studying me on the language. How do you check someone in? What’s the proper way to do it? That way, I was preparing myself for the opportunity, and the opportunity came.
Trent B:
I was given the opportunity to be a front desk clerk for the Marriott. Once I got that role, I started to aim on, how do you be a good manager? I started to read books on management. My wife would teach me different management skills. Next thing you know, I get that position. Now I’m the front desk manager. I’m rocking and rolling. The next thing was, how do I become the assistant manager of the hotel? I start to educate myself on that, and all the way until I’m the operations manager.
Trent B:
But every single night, I’m going home, I’m learning the language, I’m learning what a P&L is, I’m learning… I was self-taught every single step of the way, but I was also hands-on every single step of the way. I think I got the best kind of practice you could possibly get, and that’s something I encourage everyone I talk to, “When you go to work, there’s opportunities in front of you. It’s what do you want, and what are you willing to do?” I think the more you learn to give of yourself, the opportunities are given to you that you’re looking for.
Trent B:
That became my approach, was just to stay two steps ahead in everything I was doing and to have goals. Once I started to see if you have goals, you can actually achieve your goals, or if you don’t achieve them, get really close to achieving them, that became my new way of life.
Warwick F:
There’s a few strands I think it would be really useful for listeners to understand. There are three words I think I’ve heard you say, the importance of humility, the importance of learning, and the importance of having goals. My sense is they’re tied together, so talk a bit about just why, in terms of bouncing back from just some incredibly difficult circumstances, why humility and a heart to learn is so important.
Trent B:
Well, I think you have to humble yourself to understand you don’t know everything, and humble yourself to be willing to tell and express that to other individuals, and then not only tell it, but then listening to the advice given and act on the advice given. It’s a lot of steps in admitting you don’t know something, but I think the sooner people start to admit that, the sooner you also start to grow. I think you have to humble yourself, you have to be willing to accept advice from others, and you have to be willing to work on it if it’s ultimately what you want to do. Like you said, they definitely go hand in hand.
Warwick F:
One of the interesting things in life is there are some people that are jealous of your success. If somebody is down, they want to push them even further. But there are other… Humanity is a mix of good and bad, and there are some people, more than one would think, that when you humble yourself and say, “Look, I don’t really understand this. What does it take to be an assistant manager? What does it take to be a general manager?” there are some people who probably said, “Trent, thanks for asking. I’d love to help you.” You’re probably thinking, “Really? Somebody in the world wants to help me? Wow, that’s kind of new. Cool.”
Trent B:
You are-
Warwick F:
Go ahead.
Trent B:
No, I was going to say you are so right. That’s what I try to express when I talk to a lot of the youth, and even formerly incarcerated individuals. People who have seen any bit of success want to share that. It’s just a matter of them knowing that the person is really going to act on what they’re sharing and they’re not wasting their time. But if you’re able to prove that you’re willing to do what it takes, I find that anyone who’s successful, if you ask them, “Hey, how’d you do it?” who doesn’t want to share how they did it and hopefully help someone through their story?
Warwick F:
Because part of the American dream is clawing your way up from nothing or not much. There’s something in the American spirit that when somebody says, “Hey, I’d like to be successful. Can you help me?” there are a bunch of people that say, “Well, of course.” That’s America at its best, is helping people be successful. I’m from Australia originally. Every country has its positives and negatives.
Warwick F:
Talk a bit about how you went from being in hotels and you had this vision, this dream of shuttles and hospitality, and tie that in with goals, because goal-setting is so important. I don’t know how many people there are that have grown up the way you have that are not just humble and willing to learn, but set goals. It’s like, “Goals? My goal is to eat. What are you talking about? A roof over my head. Goals in business? Come on, what are you talking about here, Trent?” Talk about how you went from this hospitality and hotel, and you had this vision, you had this goal. How did that come about, this whole idea for shuttles and hospitality?
Trent B:
The whole idea for the shuttle and the hospitality just came about just from seeing a need. I sat on the Schenectady Hospitality Board at the time, and we would always joke about how bad the taxi service was, and we had a casino coming. I said in one of the meetings, half-jokingly but half not, “So what if I had a shuttle service? Would you guys utilize it for your hotels to bring people to the airports or the casino?” People in the room were like, “Yeah, we would, definitely, Trent. We know you. Why wouldn’t we use it?” That’s literally what sparked it for me like, “All right.”
Trent B:
I went to the drawing board and started to put it together and put my business plan together, and we built it up. We identified that there was definitely a need, and being that we had a couple of hotels that were willing to give us a shot, I said the worst that could happen is we go under and I still become a GM somewhere. Actually, the original goal was for me to continue to be the GM of the hotel and run the business at the same time, but things quickly took a turn from that. We learned how to pivot quickly in business, as well as it’s also just shown me in life how we have to be open with what’s going on right now and be willing to live with it and understand we’ve got to let go and let God in a lot of circumstances.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah, I want to talk about current circumstances here in a minute. You had this vision that the shuttles for some of these hotels weren’t that great, and you could provide a business partnering with the hotels. That was a gap in the market, right?
Trent B:
Yeah, that’s right.
Warwick F:
How did you convince the hotels to partner with you and “We can do this”? You’ve got to raise funds to get… How many shuttles do you have now?
Trent B:
Today, we’re up to 10.
Gary S:
Oh my goodness.
Warwick F:
Wow. That’s amazing. How did you go from just an idea, convince the hotels, to partner with them, get some funding? How’d that all happen?
Trent B:
I started working on the business plan. I actually went to a community-based organization to help me on my business plan, being I never did one. I got the business plan going. From the business plan, financing, only thing I really did was I bet on myself. Me and my wife, we had a conversation, and I said, “Babe, if I went to college, odds are I would have about a $50,000 tuition bill right now that would be due.” I said, “If I invest this same amount of money in myself right now, there’s a good chance that we could make more money. We’re already in the world.” Like I was saying, I was selling her on “Hey, I got the money from the job anyway. If it doesn’t work, it just doesn’t work. We lose whatever investment we make with the car.”
Trent B:
So I gambled on myself, and I took a shot. This is pre-Uber, Lyft. The taxis were terrible. I went for it and got six hotels from jump to say they would use us. This was in February we went live, the same day as the new casino. Business was booming. The phone would not stop ringing. It was just pandemonium. I was excited. We were doing great. Then in June, Uber and Lyft came, and the phone stopped ringing completely. Now we’re seven months in to the business. Well, February was when we went live, so really we were four months in, but I established it in December.
Trent B:
It became a moment of “Hey, Trent, I could stay in the hotel.” The owners of the hotel didn’t want me to leave. They wanted me to stay. It became “Well, I could stay and just wrap up shop, and we had a good run. Or do I really want to see this thing out?” I decided I wanted to see it out.
Trent B:
So we transitioned to just having bigger vehicles during that time. I started focusing on getting buses, vans, things that Uber and Lyft couldn’t do in the moment. Then what I made our relationships with the hotel look like was, instead of airport shuttles all of the time, what we wanted to focus on was corporate groups, corporate outings, corporate transportation to work, as well as weddings, because a lot of wedding parties come to hotels in the summer months. That’s exactly what we did.
Trent B:
We partnered with a bunch of these hotels. We went from that six to nine hotels to today we work with over 50 hotels. It definitely took off. Now we actually do transportation for school districts, so we have some school buses. We have a party bus. We do a lot with weddings. We work with wedding venues, specifically. We partner with them. But what we’ve transitioned to as of late has been workforce transportation, helping individuals get to and from work.
Warwick F:
One of the things I think it’s really helpful for listeners to hear what Trent is saying, because there’ll be a number of listeners that have small businesses, and inevitably in any business you’ll face obstacles, but yet, I think as we said earlier, you saw the obstacle as an opportunity. It’s like, “Okay, I’m not going to let this get me down. Okay, Uber and Lyft has come. There’s always going to be changes in the market. Okay, so how do I respond?” You saw that there was a gap in the market by having bigger shuttle buses with wedding parties, corporate groups. You didn’t let that say, “Okay, game over. How do I compete against Uber and Lyft? I can’t.” You said, “Okay, let’s retool. Let’s refocus.”
Warwick F:
For any small business owner, you don’t give up. You say, “Okay, one avenue of revenue may have stopped, but let’s think of others.” You had this creative, never say die, “Okay, let’s keep at it.” If you’re a small business owner, learn from what Trent is saying. There is really valuable input. Go ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
Trent, I want to ask you about one aspect of the business that you talked to me about offline, because early on in this conversation, you mentioned that you were motivated by money. That was one of the things that led you into selling drugs, that having money when you didn’t have it was kind of a thing for you. It was a lure for you. Now you’ve got a business that’s successful, and one of the things that you’re doing, and I want you to talk about it in a second in detail, is offering rides in that transportation area to work with some folks who used to be incarcerated, like you were. I think what that speaks to is you are living now a life of significance. You’ve discovered significance.
Gary S:
I think if I ask you this question, I know what your answer is going to be, but I’m going to ask it anyway so the listener can hear it. You’ve chased money. You’ve chased significance. What’s more important to you? What’s more meaningful in the long run?
Trent B:
Definitely, significance. Definitely. Hands down. Even to this day, I have a successful company. I was still more liquid when I was doing things in the street than I am to this day, but I definitely wasn’t living the life that I’m living to this day. I didn’t have this beautiful home. I own multiple homes now. I had to learn finance, too, to be honest with yourself and learn the importance of credit and all sorts of things like that.
Trent B:
At this point, I look at money as almost… It’s a necessity for life, but like I was telling my brother the other day, the main thing money gives you is just options, I think, and allows you to take advantage of opportunities. We were speaking more so to… I was just telling him we booked a couple of vacations for the family for next year and the year out, three trips, and I told him how great of a deal it was. But as I explained to him, I said, “That’s the only difference. Money allows you to take advantage of opportunity.”
Trent B:
For me, that doesn’t move me anymore. I’m more so moved on legacy and being able to… I want my name to mean something when I’m gone. I want my children, every time they look at me, I want them to think of me as a superhero almost, and that doesn’t come from money. That comes from teaching them the intangibles, anything is possible, and instilling in them the things that I’ve learned over the years, and so that way, they don’t have to take the same paths, but they could get a little cheat in life and have a better start.
Trent B:
Definitely, money is going to be made. They print new money every day. Deals are made every day. I think it’s to be expected, if you want to go make some money, you can go out there and make it. I don’t think money is the end-all, be-all like I once did.
Warwick F:
I think we’re about to touch on it, but when you talk about significance and legacy, and I want to hear some more detail, you’ve used your whole shuttle bus service, in a way, to give back to those who’ve had some challenges like yourself. Just talk a bit more about how you’ve used that to help others.
Trent B:
What I identified when I was working in the temp agencies was a lot of individuals on parole, the biggest issue we faced was we had to take public transportation. So I joined some boards to gain some knowledge, and one of the local boards I sit on is the capital region’s transportation committee. Basically, on that board, we discuss the public transportation in the capital region of New York State. They’ve been able to help me to identify that those who rely on the bus, 20 minutes on a bus in comparison to 20 minutes in your car where we live is night or day. In a bus 20 minutes, they’re still in the same typical area, but in a car, you can actually drive yourself to an area where you could have a job making $20 or better an hour.
Trent B:
What I started to do was realize there’s industries that are in these areas, and I would imagine they need bodies. One of the biggest problems is there was no transportation that could connect the bodies to these industries. What I’ve done is I’ve gone into a lot of these, what are they, distribution centers and I’ve been able to try to educate them on the benefits of hiring ex-offenders, A, the tax breaks that they get, but then on top of it, helping them to understand that if you give an individual a chance, that’s all they’re really looking for. These guys and young ladies will work their tails off because all they wanted was this opportunity to have a livable wage, and now they have it.
Trent B:
So we started to actually transport people to and from these locations, and it’s been highly successful. I have a lot of companies reaching out to see how they can get involved, if I can work with their company. I work with the Department of Labor to help expand what they’re able to do. It’s just been really, really great. We did a job fair right before the corona thing took off, and we were able to help 30 individuals who just came home from prison get jobs making $20 an hour.
Gary S:
That’s fantastic.
Trent B:
That’s what I said. I felt good. Then another thing we started to do was, last Mother’s Day, we did a free shuttle to the women’s prison, because I just had the idea of how important visits were for me, and I was blessed to get a visit literally every weekend. So we did a free shuttle for individuals who might want to go and visit an incarcerated mother in prison. It was highly successful.
Trent B:
But then with that, I started to look into what options there was for prison transportation, because I was like, “That speaks directly to me.” I started to do a lot more research and I started to find out recidivism rates drop by visits, and how most offenders end up over 100 miles from where the crime took place. Most of these individuals come from poverty, meaning to get 100 miles is tough for a lot of people if you could barely pay your bills. So I started to put these things together, and I put a service in place in upstate New York where we’ve been able to help individuals go from 20 hours’ commute time in the state of New York, plus over $200 a trip, to we’ve made the price points affordable. $50, $60, $70, $80 is the most we charge for a person to go visit a loved one in prison. Then, once a month, we actually do a free prison shuttle service for the community, where we identify just one specific prison and anyone could go for free. We’ve been doing that since the beginning of this year, and that’s been really, really great just to help individuals.
Trent B:
Now we’re starting to get a little steam behind it, so we’re getting organizations that want to actually help educate the families on what resources are out here. I’m starting to get more businesses in line, also, to the places that we actually work with and partner with, so we can start to educate people, “Hey, not only can we’ll get you to the prison for free, but the big thing is there’s resources out here to help your loved ones and help you. We also can help if you guys need an actual job or if they need employment when they come home, which they will.” It’s come, definitely, a 180. A lot of the problems that I lived through, I’m blessed to now be able to help others get through those same situations a little easier.
Warwick F:
That’s what I was saying. I want to talk a little about legacy in a second, because I know our time is coming to a close. You’ve got former inmates. You’ve got loved ones of inmates. Talk about the feedback you get from them. You’re making a life-changing difference. What feedback do you get from these former inmates and family members of what you’re doing for their lives?
Trent B:
Man, that’s some of the best stuff. Honestly, I don’t feel anything but love from anyone, let it be people who read about me in the newspaper to people’s lives that we touch like that. It seems like wherever I go, it’s just people are just showing me so much love and appreciation for what I’m doing. I hear it all the time, like, “Hey, I wouldn’t have been able to go see my mother” or “Hey, we got these guys who they’re just really thankful to have this new source of income.”
Trent B:
What I’ve been doing, too, on top of that is I’ve used my platform to now go to local banks, and I have them partner with us. The goal is to try to help these individuals who take the shuttle service, within eight months, also educate them on how to have a budget, live off a budget, save their money so they can buy a car, so then they can expand their options from there. I don’t want them to become reliant on anything we’re doing. The goal is to continually just help and just push us forward.
Trent B:
Yeah, so legacy, I feel it when I go outside. People are just so passionate about giving me thanks, and I love it.
Warwick F:
As I think about legacy, summarizing this, you grew up in a very tough upbringing, neighborhood, father dying young, mother, addiction issues, prison, but the legacy you’re leaving for your kids, for those you come in touch with, former inmates, family members, the community, it’s a very different legacy. It’s a legacy of pulling yourself up, making different choices, loving your kids, your wife, caring for those in need. You’re somebody that your kids, I’m sure, are very proud of-
Trent B:
I hope so.
Warwick F:
… that they can say, “You know what, this is who my dad is.” It’s remarkable. It’s a miracle. I’m sure they say to their friends, I don’t know if your daughters say it to you, but “You know what, in some sense, I’d like to be kind of like my dad, because he is a role model.” I’m sure there are other people that know you who say, “You know what, Trent, I want to be somebody like that, that sets goals, yes, provides a comfortable life for their family and vacations, but gives back, helps the community. Trent is somebody. Now, that’s a role model. That’s somebody that you want to be like.”
Warwick F:
If that’s your legacy, which I feel like maybe it is, when all is said and done, that’s not a bad legacy, right? To give to people? Isn’t that a legacy that you can be proud of, and you think hopefully your kids can be proud of?
Trent B:
Yeah, 100%. That’s just to show you how you can easily go 180. I was the kid that would do anything for money, but like you said, now it’s more so “How do you help? How do you give back?” That’s why our call was delayed. Right now, we’re actually delivering groceries for families that just are in need. Me and my daughter, we were out at my office just doing some work in there cleaning up and got the call, so I just shot over and brought a family some groceries. That’s literally the legacy. How can we help? How can we be of service? My thing is, the more lives you touch, the more you could be of service to others, I just know good things are going to come, and that’s all a part of legacy.
Warwick F:
I should ask real quick… Sorry, Gary. I’d be remiss of saying, how are you handling the whole coronavirus with your business? Is that impacting you a lot? That’s a huge obstacle that’s affecting the whole planet.
Trent B:
Definitely. We’ve lost a lot of revenue, conferences, weddings. We do daily services with Amtrak that we had to stop doing. We lost a lot of business. I did have to make some tough decisions and lay some off. I’ve been able to keep some individuals on. Even the individuals we keep on, it’s more so just for the giving at this point. But at the same time, I believe in my heart that from doing good, you get good. If we keep doing good things, I think these will create new relationships, which in the future will create new opportunities. So let’s just continue to help out at this time and do whatever we can for the community, and the community will take care of us.
Gary S:
Well, this is, as I say on every episode… I’m going to say it differently this time, though. This is the time that we normally say, “It’s time to land the plane.” But given what we’re talking about, let’s put on the parking brake instead of land the plane, and let’s wrap up our discussion on that point.
Gary S:
A couple things. One, Trent, you are a very humble man. You’ve talked about that here. I’m a PR guy, so I don’t have to be humble about you, and I can point out to our listeners that you were recently named one of the top 40 business people in Schenectady under 40, so congratulations for that well-deserved recognition.
Trent B:
Thank you very much.
Gary S:
I also want to encourage listeners, we have a YouTube channel. Crucible Leadership has a YouTube channel. If you’ve listened to this on a podcast app, I encourage you to watch it and listen to it on YouTube if you can do that again. Here’s why. I want you to see Trent’s face, as we can do as we’re recording this, when he talks about significance, when he talks about legacy, when he talks about the reactions he gets from the people he helps. The smile on his face lights up this room, lights up this screen. This is a man who not only loves what he does, but he loves the folks that he’s touching. That is something I think, for all of us who’ve been through crucible experiences, to see that can help us have the courage, have the ability to take the next step forward.
Gary S:
There’s a few things, I think, as we do close here, I want to leave listeners with. The first one is this idea that money is great, money is fine, money does make the world go around to some extent, everybody needs it, but where those smiles showed up most on Trent’s face was when he was talking about significance. The idea that a man who was so focused on money and flash, his own word, is now so focused on helping others is a beautiful thing. That’s available to all of us. Please process that and live that, listener.
Gary S:
Second thing that Trent said in every communication I’ve had with him, he has said this. He said it several times here. One key to overcoming your crucible experiences and getting on a path to a life of significance is simply don’t ever give up. Know that there’s something out there. Regardless of what circumstance you’re in right now, find something, grab something out there that you want more. It doesn’t have to be as dramatic as prison, and you want to live a “normal” and fulfilling life out of it. It can be something far, far less dire and far more simple. Whatever your crucible is, find that thing that gives you hope and grab it and go for it. That’s the second point.
Gary S:
The third point, I think, is interesting here. In real estate, they tell you the first rule of real estate is… There’s three rules of real estate, location, location, location. One of the things that Trent has said throughout this conversation is that there are three elements to overcoming your crucible experience and bouncing back, and that is learn, learn, learn. He dedicated himself to learning, whether it was a formal education program while in prison, whether it was running from scrubbing toilets to going and talking to the front desk clerk in that hotel, to coming home and his wife teaching him and they’re talking about things about business. He learned every step of the way. You can learn yourself through a crucible. That is a crucial thing to hang on to for everybody.
Gary S:
Then the last thing, as you’re doing that, as you are learning, set goals. As you’re learning, set the goals of what your learning is going to bring you to. Trent did that. Trent is living out those goals. Even though things right now in the time that we’re having this conversation have created some other crucibles, he’s pushing through that with confidence, with hope, and I just looked at him on the screen, if you’re watching it on YouTube, and a smile. That’s the kind of thing that we need.
Gary S:
All of you, thank you for joining us on this episode, this truly special episode of Beyond the Crucible. Thank you, Trent, for being here with us.
Gary S:
I encourage you, listener, if you want to help us out, if you want to do a favor for us, so that stories like Trent’s can get told and more people can get inspired by them, on the app that you’re listening to this right now, click subscribe. Share this link with other people, so that the kind of hope that’s being offered here to help people get beyond their crucibles can be put into the earbuds, if you will, of more and more people. You can do that by visiting us at crucibleleadership.com. You can find out more information. But you can simply click subscribe on the app that you’re listening to right now.
Gary S:
If you want to know more about us, as I said, you can visit crucibleleadership.com. Warwick has a blog. We have some other resources there that can be helpful to you.
Gary S:
Until the next time that we’re all together here on Beyond the Crucible, we encourage you to remember what Trent’s life has proven, that those times of crucibles can feel like the worst times in your life, they can knock you off your feet, they can knock you down, you can feel like you don’t want to get up, but if you get up and if you dedicate yourself to learning the lessons of your crucible, those crucible moments can be far, far more than the end of your story. They can be the start of a new chapter in a new story that will lead you to exactly where Trent just told us for the last hour he has gotten to, a life of significance, and that’s a beautiful thing. Thanks for being here.
As general manager of Major League Baseball’s Cincinnati Reds, Brad Kullman was living his childhood dream of making a living, and a life, in the game he loved. But after being passed over for permanent promotions and finally being let go, he moved past the devastation to realize he was free to pursue a passion that had become even more important to him: using the analytical tools he had pioneered as a pro sports scout and executive to help everyday men and women unlock the insights of their hardwired makeup. In this interview with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax, Kullman explains how standard personality tests offer insufficient help in charting a course to a life of significance for those who experience crucibles, and offers insights and resources to help listeners understand and apply the realities of how they’re wired.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Hi everybody, I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of Beyond the Crucible and I’m welcoming you here to our podcast today. I’m the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership and just want to tell you a little bit about the podcast that you dropped in on. We talk here about crucible experiences, those moments in life that can feel, well, they can feel like life maybe over. It can feel like life has stopped. It can feel like life has changed course like a river changes course in a natural disaster. But the reason that we talk about these crucible experiences, these failures, these setbacks, these traumas and these tragedies is not to dwell on the negative, is not to live in the past, is not to wallow in things that have happened to us that have been painful. We talk about these experiences because we want to offer hope and healing to people who’ve experienced them so that you can begin to move beyond it, as the title of the podcast says, and you can embrace the lessons of your crucible and you can chart a course for a life of significance.
Gary S:
All of this discussion, this whole plan for how you face a crucible experience head on and move beyond it, came from our founder Warwick Fairfax, who has experienced some of these moments himself and who is living a life of significance now beyond his crucible, and Warwick, thank you for being here today. This is going to be a very interesting episode I think.
Warwick F:
Well thanks, Gary, for introducing us and thanks so much, Brad, for being here. I look forward to a great discussion.
Gary S:
Brad is our guest. That is Brad Kullman. Brad is the founder and president of Max Q Performance, and I’m just going to give you a little bit about who Brad is. This is Brad’s bio. Extremely impressive. Brad’s a human performance specialist who has studied the brain and biomechanics for more than 25 years. In a three decade major league baseball career, he served as a high ranking executive and scout, including appointments as the interim general manager for the Cincinnati Reds on two separate occasions. As assistant general manager for the Reds, he directed the first formal R&D department, that’s research and development, in major league baseball, focusing on advances in assessing athletic potential and related development. All of that experience led him to his current career as founder and president of Max Q Performance.
Gary S:
Max Q Performance is the culmination of more than a decade of intense study and research and understanding the innate hardwired designs of people. The Max Q process delves deeply beneath the surface level symptoms of persona in order to analyze root causation, thereby creating a framework for a meaningful and substantive solution based on a person’s true indelible makeup. Brad, welcome to Beyond the Crucible.
Brad K:
Thank you for having me guys.
Warwick F:
Well, Brad again, thanks again. So a good place to start is really Beyond the Crucible. We love to hear your story and in particular your crucible moment. Could be a failure, setback. It’s typically a searing experience, and then we get onto how you got beyond that to live a life of significance, a life on purpose, serving others. But just kind of start us out with your story and your crucible moment and yeah.
Brad K:
Well, it’s a long story, but I’ll give you the Reader’s Digest version. I loved baseball. I wanted to be a baseball player when I was young, and as I got into high school I realized that if I was going to make it to the major leagues, it was probably going to be on the front office side rather than the field. So I started exploring avenues and as I got into it, I went to Ohio State, got my master’s in sports management and ended up working in the minor leagues for a few years. That was right around the time when statistics were starting to be more and more involved, and I ended up getting hired by the Cincinnati Reds and I was at the forefront of the statistical revolution, as in the late nineties increased computing power allowed us to assess performance at a much deeper level, what we call today is being routinely called analytics.
Brad K:
And so I was at the forefront of that and I worked my way up, worked hard. 12 years with the organization, never received a review from my superiors below excellent. Always got the highest grades in everything I did. They fired my boss at one point, named me interim GM and I was told I was going to be interviewed as part of the possible replacements full time, and as it came about, that was not accurate. They brought in somebody from outside the organization, didn’t even give me a chance, but I stuck with it and a couple years later they fired that guy. Made me interim GM a second time and told me once again, “You’re going to be interviewed and have a chance at this.” So I prepared all this stuff for my interview and it was a new owner that had bought the team and that’s the way things go in sports. Whoever owns the team makes the decisions. And even though as we get into detailed analysis performance with analytics for players at the highest levels of management it’s still very subjective exercise.
Brad K:
Once again, I was given a courtesy interview that was really a sham. I didn’t think, they didn’t really give me a chance to sell myself and obviously my performance had shown enough that they had me take over the organization twice during the interim and I was not real happy about that. But they went outside the organization, brought in another guy and he basically wanted to bring in some of his own people and so I was let go unceremoniously with a few other people and my lifelong … it’d been my lifelong dream. It’s what I’ve worked for for years, had done a good job and then to just be let go like that was difficult but you know, it wasn’t really probably a surprise. In some ways it was a relief, I think, because I’m not a quitter. I wouldn’t have quit because of that. I would have stuck it out, I’m sure, and been unhappy, but it allowed me to really take a step back.
Brad K:
And the interesting thing, Warwick, is what I was prepared to do was I was prepared to sell my family for this job as general manager of the Cincinnati Reds. I was going to give it everything I had, 24/7. I was willing to devote my life to this organization and my wife who stood by me so much, had three beautiful young children that she had done a great job of raising. I had already been gone a lot, but I was really ready to say, “I’m going to be gone even more because I’m giving it … this is what I work to do and it’s my dream and I’m going to give it everything I’ve got.”
Brad K:
And so as I stepped back following that, I kind of thought, “You know, is this really what God has planned for me? Is this what He wants for me?” And the interesting thing is as we were doing the statistical analysis, there was one area of player performance that we had not been able to gain any more insight with, with analytics. And that’s what we call in baseball, we call it makeup. Makeup is kind of what makes a person tick. The intangibles that make a player … two players can run the same speed, can hit with the same power, but one ends up becoming a superstar, another one flames out. What is it that is inside of them? And we tried all kinds of different personality tests and everything, and honestly the different personality tests, not one gave us any actionable, meaningful information that we could use to help develop a player, make them better, or even evaluate him to know how good he could possibly be.
Brad K:
That’s why when I was introduced to this concept of hardwired makeup, discoveries that were based on the latest advances in the hard sciences, I was blown away because it finally gave us something substantive and actionable that we could use to evaluate and develop these players. The interesting thing was even as I started using it and found it helpful from baseball executive and scouting standpoint, I find it also made a difference to me at home. I could better appreciate and understand my wife. I could better understand my kids. I saw the benefits go far beyond the playing field.
Brad K:
So as I stepped back and said, “What am I going to do with my life?” I had some other chances to get back with another team scouting, doing some things which would involve a lot of time away from home and I just decided that maybe God had me go down this path to be exposed to this and it’s my job to help take this to the world because it could help many people beyond just sports scouts. So I tried to use that as an opportunity to learn more about this and now I’ve taken it myself to share it with as many people as I can.
Warwick F:
Well, I mean that’s an amazing story, Brad. I mean, you spent your whole life since Ohio State and maybe beyond focusing on baseball. Did it feel like it was almost your life? For a person of faith, we always read in scripture about idols and I mean certainly for me growing up in a big family newspaper business, I’ll speak for myself. Yeah, I had definitely my faith in God was the cornerstone of my life, but yet Fairfax Media, the history, the dynasty, my dad, the founder who was a believer, it felt like nothing else mattered and if the company hadn’t gone under my watch, I never would have left. It would have felt betrayal. Was it an idol? In some sense, but I know that’s a weird term, maybe for some, but you know what I’m getting at. How did it feel to you, baseball, and you loved it. It was your life.
Brad K:
I still do love it, but what’s funny is before I went down, and I knew they were going to tell me in this interview and the way it went about, I knew they were going to tell me I wasn’t a finalist. I mean, I was a finalist, but I was going to be one of the final finalists and before I left, one of my friends, a coworker, he said, “Brad, calm down. You’re real upset.” I said, “You know what?” I remember specifically saying this. “Baseball does not define me.” And so I was really saying there, out loud, that if they’re going to fire me because I’m upset because of the way they treated me, then that’s the way it goes.
Brad K:
But when reality hits, I remember … what’s amazing, too, we were going to spring training a week later. My kids, we always pulled them out of school and take them down to Florida with us, and we already had our bags packed. We had shipped a bunch of equipment already on the team truck. It was already in Florida, and so I had to go home and explain to my wife, but really my small children, I had to explain to them that we’re not going to Florida, what does that all mean and it was very emotional for them.
Warwick F:
I mean, it’s kind of ironic that you mentioned analytics is something that baseball’s all into these days and you analyze player performance, you were a scout for many years, and yet when it comes time to one of the most important decisions, I would assume, a baseball team can make, which is to pick a general manager, there was precious few analytics. There was no who’s got the numbers, who has a record of performance, who has the best skills. It was just seem a personality contest rather than … I know you’re not big on personality assessments, but it almost felt like they used a personality assessment. “Oh gee, you know, it’s Monday. I don’t really feel like Brad.”
Brad K:
But they didn’t even try to use an objective personality assessment. It was a very subjective, “I like this guy. This guy’s my godson.” The decisions that are made, I was recommended to me by my buddy. So it’s just … but see, the same thing happens in business. Sometimes the top salesman, “Well, let’s make him the manager.” Well you know what? Maybe he’s great at sales and he’s not great at management and some guy that might be a great manager is doing terrible sales so he never gets considered.
Warwick F:
Right. And that is so true. So when that happened and it’s amazing you were interviewed twice and then kind of passed over and then finally let go. And it’s interesting you say that you were putting maybe baseball before family and that even though you weren’t a happy camper, that you feel like you couldn’t have got out unless you were let go… I mean you knew this really is not making sense. I mean, did you think analytically, “Why am I here?”
Brad K:
I don’t know if it didn’t make sense. It’s fun going to the ballpark every day. There’s a lot of joy in my job. I was getting paid to watch baseball games. No matter what my job was, there’s still something to be said for that. Now there’s a lot of other tasks that go into that. Everyone thinks, “Oh, you just watch baseball.” No, there’s a lot of contract negotiation things that are in any business and there’s some things that are not so much fun, but it wasn’t all bad, believe me, but it was just a lot of time and really you get to a point where what is life about? Do I want to spend my whole life … is it fair to my wife, is it fair to my family for me to be … and I know there’s a lot of, not absentee fathers, but that parents, men or women, especially men though, I think that pour themselves into their career, and they’re not at home. So what has happened is I really have found that our marriage has been strengthened through this. I mean, I’ve been able to see a lot of things with my children that I was missing out on and so it’s been a blessing in ways, but it’s easy to … I mean when you’ve wanted something since you were a kid you know and worked your butt off to do, it’s tough to-
Warwick F:
So when that all ended, maybe part of your family is thinking, “Well at least maybe we’ll be able to see more of dad,” and they probably weren’t even thinking that at the time or hopefully just feeling terrible for you, I would imagine. But what were those first few months like when it was over? Because you know you probably didn’t launch into Max Q Performance overnight. For most of us, it’s a journey. But what were those first few months like when your dream was over?
Brad K:
Well I didn’t figure it was over. I’m still not sure it’s over, that aspect. I feel I still have something to give back to baseball. I’ve been working on some stuff having to do with the hardwired makeup and baseball athletes specifically, but I assumed I would be getting back in at some point, it was just a matter of time. Actually I thought it would be time to take a step back and refresh a little bit, and I think the kids all thought it was great. “Hey, dad’s home, let’s play.” Because I was home so infrequently, whenever I was home, it’s “Play time with dad, let’s go in the back and play whiffle ball. Let’s play.” And so now it was “Let’s play every day,” and they thought that, “Gee, dad’s so much fun all of a sudden.”
Gary S:
it’s an interesting thing to hear you both talk about the aftermath of the crucible because Warwick, you’ve said in other conversations that we’ve had on this podcast that there was no way in your situation as the heir to Fairfax Media that there was no way really since the moment you were born that you were going to get out of taking over the company unless what happened happened when the company was passed from family control in the failed takeover bid that you launched. So in some sense, I’ve heard you talk about there was some relief once you’ve had a chance to process it, that that was no longer the situation you had to deal with.
Gary S:
Brad, to hear you talk about it again, not immediately afterward, but there was some sense of relief that you were able to put your attentions, your skills, your energies, your effort to something that was more fulfilling to the family, more fulfilling in some ways to being able to help others. Is that accurate from both of your perspectives?
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, to me, I do hear some commonalities in the story in that obviously Brad has loved baseball his whole life and still does, which is great. For me, I don’t know that I’d say I love Fairfax Media, but it was more just a sense of duty, founded by a strong believer who was a great husband, great dad, elder in his church, employees loved him, and he ran a great business. I mean, every area of life he was a businessmen for Christ, if you will. It was pretty much as good as it gets. So yeah, it was everything I did from Oxford to Wall Street to Harvard Business School was all about, “There’s a role I want to fulfill in life.” It had nothing to do with how am I designed, how am I wired? That was an irrelevant question to me. It was why take an assessment? It’s useless information because my path in life has been laid out.
Warwick F:
But then once I was in it and then once it was over, yes, I think you make an astute point, Gary. There was a sense of relief because I realized if you did a job requirements analysis for head of the million dollar company, it would have been a Rupert Murdoch, take charge kind of leader. And I’m more of a quiet reflective advisor. That’s kind of who I am, so my wiring couldn’t be more different than what was needed. It was an incredibly terrible match. And so afterwards, yes, it was searing, felt like I let God down, family, parents. But there was a sense that, well, who am I? It took me years to figure that out, which would be an interesting discussion about even when I took assessments, it was a bit, what do I do with all that? But it gave me the freedom to be who I was, but it wouldn’t have happened voluntarily. So that whole wiring thing, I completely resonate with, Brad, with where you’re coming from.
Gary S:
Is it true, Brad, would you say that eventually you came to a point that even though you still love baseball, you felt like you were released to go do something else that you also have great passion for?
Brad K:
Well, the thing is, and maybe this is a credit to my parents, maybe it’s a detriment. Since I was real little, I always felt I was destined for greatness. And so I thought I was going to be general manager and bring a World Series championship to the team and I’d be the toast of the town in the parade. But then as I had this kind of mid life … I wouldn’t say crisis, but this crucible moment, that it allowed me to step back and think and I thought, “What is being great in God’s world, really, about? Being general management for a baseball team, or if I could really share this insight that I believe is a window into how God truly created each of us, designing us with special talents and limitations, each person.” And so basically, I had to beg the guy that … he’d been a consultant with us that discovered this stuff, and so I said, “Look, I want to come and work with you. I want to learn all I can about this. I want to help you. The world needs to know about this.”
Brad K:
And so he almost very apprehensively said, “Okay, I guess you can come and help me.” And so I started trying to learn everything I could and shadow him around and spend as much time talking to him about it and learning all I can. And so it kind of evolved that I felt I would take this back to baseball because I knew the applications it had in baseball, but I also felt that I wanted to share it with the world. I felt that it was a more meaningful use of the rest of my days, however many God may bless me with, and that’s why I really wanted to do this.
Warwick F:
So this feels like understanding how we are wired, and I love the term you use, hardwired. It’s your mission, your purpose in life and you’ve talked a bit about it, but help us understand why is this at a very deep level, your passion, maybe even your God given passion, if you will?
Brad K:
I don’t know if that it’s my passion, but I feel like it’s my mission. It’s funny, I went to the dentist the other day and he was saying some stuff about my teeth are too tight, what they did with my orthodontia and stuff and he said my mouth is small. And I said, “Well, everyone tells me I’ve got a big mouth, so I don’t understand that.” But I am a talker. I’ve always been a talker, and the guy that made this discovery actually is not very high energy. He’s more of a reflective, very deep reflective thinker. And I think that maybe, and now as he fell ill and is not able to really share this with the world like I thought I was going to help him do, and I wonder if that maybe God has directed me down this path through sports to find out about this and then learn more of all I could and now it’s my duty to share it, to be the mouthpiece, the spokesperson to tell people because I think there’s a lot of liberation with understanding.
Brad K:
I think a lot of us think, “Why do I think this way? Why do I feel this way sometimes? Why do I act this way? Why do I perform this way?” And really, this explains the way that you’re hardwired in your brain, your motor cortex. There’s so many aspects of it that have to do with behavior and performance that totally makes sense.
Warwick F:
So talk about hardwired, and in particular Max Q Performance, and why that’s different. I’ve heard … I think you mentioned personality assessments may not be quite objective, but some people in the age we live in believe you can be whoever you want to be. There are no Limits. Just a throw off the shackles. Self-actualize. It sounds so good in so many words, but while we can grow and develop, people hate the L word. Limits. We try to know that understanding your wiring is limiting. I think we both agree it’s the reverse. But talk about your philosophy versus personality and the whole you can be whoever you want to be mantra that we hear in our culture.
Brad K:
Well that’s silly. Shaquille O’Neal can want to be a jockey at the Kentucky Derby all he wants, but it’s not going to work, the same way Willie Shoemaker could want to be an NBA center. It’s not going to work. We all have limitations. If we understand that, then we can really … I think as a parent, you know, as a parent, you don’t want your kid to be, “I was a football player and my dad was a football player, my dad’s dad was a football player. We play football and I want to play a piano.” And maybe he’s a great … got the ability to be a great concert pianist. So am I doing my duty as a father to make him play football and not let him do the piano because he can be what I want him to be or maybe he even thinks that’s what he should be. Getting a little bit to your point, Warwick, is that you thought that what you should be and you went into something that wasn’t maybe what you really wanted to be.
Brad K:
So I think if you understand that kind of stuff, it’s all about … I think about it so much as being a parent. And I feel my job as a parent is put my children in position to succeed, encourage them, help provide them the tools they need, but help guide them down a path, because really I think what’s life about? What is the meaning of life? And I think it when you get to your final days and you look back and you can say, “You know what? I used what God gave me to the best of my ability and I lived the best life I could,” and we all have our own life. I’m not trying to live your life or Gary’s life. I’m trying to live my life the best that I can, and that’s all I can do really.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s really a profound point. From my perspective, and I would have assume yours, God designed us a certain way. My belief is God doesn’t make mistakes, so if He designed us a certain way, why shouldn’t we live in light of who the Designer made us to be, right? I mean, it’s just stupid otherwise. You know, one of the things I often say is anybody that’s had kids or been a kid and I have three kids in their twenties, they all come out of the box a certain way. They could be artistic, they could be athletic, they could be reflective, they could be outgoing.
Warwick F:
I have two sons and a daughter and they’re very different. I have two that are writers. I have a daughter who’s very missional, just come back from working for a faith based nonprofit in Australia. And yeah, they’re all very different. And so like you with your kids, I try to encourage them, help them understand how they’re wired, which they do, and then just show options, encourage, but just I want them to be whoever they want to be but obviously in light of who they’re designed to be. And I’m sure with your kids you have the same philosophy, right? Help them understand who they are, give them options. It’s their choice, but help them realize you may not want to spend hours, months, years on a path that has nothing to do with who you are.
Brad K:
And maybe if they do choose a path that I think is going to be more difficult for them, it’s your life, you can do that but I’m going to tell you, here’s where you may encounter some hurdles and you need to be prepared for that. Because one thing, too, where we do have limitations, it’s best to find someone that can help shore up our weaknesses and help us like an assistant, a spouse, whoever it is in our life that can help balance us and help us be the best. That’s why teams are so important. I think that the more I can share the word about hardwired makeup, the more people will understand true diversity is really diverse minds and people that have different ways of processing information and different strengths and weaknesses from an…
Gary S:
I want to-
Warwick F:
Please, go ahead, Gary.
Gary S:
I want to step in, for the listeners, and point out something that’s really interesting about Crucible Leadership and Max Q Performance. It’s fascinating to me that Crucible Leadership posits that we have to understand, we must understand, how we’re designed to live a life of significance. That’s the gateway in the refining cycle to get to the life of significance. Max Q Performance posits that by delving beyond root level persona, we create a meaningful and substantive solution to moving beyond the crises that we face. You guys are both talking about the same kinds of things.
Gary S:
For folks who hear the words, “I need to understand how I’m wired. I need to understand how I’m designed,” Brad, how does hardwired makeup help people understand that?
Brad K:
Actually, I like crucible moments too. Not because of what it puts people through, but because that’s when we really see how a person truly is wired and the flaw, Warwick, with all conventional personality tests is they’re all self reporting mechanisms. So you can really be who you want to be, oh yeah. And a lot of times, based on the way we’re raised, based on the values that we’re taught, you should be nice to people, you should be outgoing, whatever it is we’re taught, we tend to develop that persona. We’ve all done it. Okay, I’m going to this situation. I’m going to a meeting, I’m going to a social function. I’m going to deal with something with my children where I need to, okay, let me put on this face. I need to be tough in this situation. I need to be nice in this situation. I need to be outgoing. And so we wear these masks and the same way when we take a personality test, many times people think, well, in this situation I’m like this, when I’m in the other situation, I’m like that.
Brad K:
And so we answer these based on a combination of nature and nurture and we get them confused and so hardwired makeup … and the reason I chose Max Q Performance, it’s a physics term. When a rocket ship is about to escape the Earth’s atmosphere, there’s a point of maximum pressure that the point of the rocket has to be able to withstand or the rocket will implode. And so under pressure, when we’re all under pressure, that’s when … I can say I’m lefthanded all day long, but when pressure hits and the ceiling’s caving in, I’m going to use my dominant right hand to save my life, you know? So at these points, that’s when we find out aspects about how a person is truly hardwired to think, feel, behave and perform.
Warwick F:
And that makes so much … I mean, I agree with you so much about just understanding how we’re wired and hard-wiring. I guess one question I have is I’ve done a lot of executive coaching and taken a bunch of assessments, some better than others, but I know for me, I took an assessment back in the mid nineties and it said I was … it was reasonably accurate. I was sort of reflective, analytical, liked gathering a team of likeminded people, all of which I think is reasonably true. I guess you’d call it in the motivated abilities space, I suppose you’d say that’s where it was, but I remember looking at it and saying, “Okay, well what do I do with this thing?”
Warwick F:
So even if you have the best assessment, somebody might say, “Okay, I think this is me.” But especially for younger folks, twenties, thirties, how do you both help them understand their wiring and maybe a bit like a baseball scout just help them grow and develop into that. How do you combine that?
Brad K:
What do you mean develop into that?
Warwick F:
Well, I’m sorry. Maybe I misspoke. That was the wrong way of putting it, but I mean they understand their wiring, but how do I apply it in a career. How do I decide what positions to take? What does this mean for my next step of my career? Putting it into practice, basically.
Brad K:
Well, I think a little depends on what you really want to do, finding something … obviously you need to enjoy, I always said find me someone with passion and I’ll show you a success. If you find what you’re passionate about and if you’re willing to work hard and study and learn it and put the time into it, like my goal when I got into baseball, I said, “I don’t know if I have some innate scouting sense that these scouts have, maybe I don’t,” but I said, “My goal is going to be when my boss gets into work in the morning, he’s going to see my car in the parking lot. And when he leaves at night, he’s going to see my car still in the parking lot,” and I wanted to be there whenever he needs something. I wanted to be there for him and be able to get the job done to the point I started to anticipate what he needed before he asked for it. And so I developed a reputation as someone who got things done. Not that I was some super smart guy, but I know how to get things done.
Brad K:
And because I love doing it, I loved being at that ballpark in my office and so having a passion about that enabled me to find success. And I think that understanding, then, how they are and really Warwick, I don’t know a whole lot about your background, but I get the feeling that you were a little bit … maybe you beat yourself up some, but I think you got caught in the midst of difficult economic times globally that maybe in a different time, and I think you had to know you were taking a calculated risk when you tried to do what you did, and so then I think that maybe at another time things might’ve worked out differently.
Brad K:
There’s a lot of people that try what Warren Buffett did, buying down and out companies and some of them stayed down and out and they never become Warren Buffett. So you need to take risks, and we only hear about the success story sometimes.
Warwick F:
No, you’re right, but I think you made a very astute point, is it’s understanding your your wiring, your hardwiring, but also combining that with what are you passionate about? You’re passionate about baseball, you understood analytics and it was just a great combination. So if people understand their wiring and then understand what they’re passionate about, you’re right. Then they’re kind of, they’re on a great path. So that makes so much sense.
Gary S:
I want to jump in and say something. You talked a few minutes ago, Brad, about you weren’t sure whether you had the scouting ability. I know for a fact you have the scouting ability, cause I’m a Chicago Cubs fan and you were one of the scouts who scouted Jake Arietta when he was with the Baltimore Orioles and no good and he got to the Cubs, won a Cy Young, pitched a no hitter. I happened to see it Dodger stadium and help them win the World Series. So bravo. You are a good scout.
Gary S:
The second thing that I wanted to say is as we’re talking about assessments and doing things, one of the things that people want to discover how they’re hardwired through what Max Q offers, is you have an assessment, correct, at your website that people can take. What’s that like and what kind of outputs do people get that are helpful to them, to Warwick’s point, applying what they learn about themselves?
Brad K:
Well, one thing that sets this apart is, like I said, all conventional commercial personality inventories are all self-assessment, self-reporting mechanisms. Ours is the only one that has a third person perspective. We ask you to have somebody else that knows you very well also take the assessment of you, because the fact is the way we see ourselves is often very different than the way others see us and they can often observe behaviors in us, the way we handle situations, that we may think we do it one way just because partly the way we’ve been raised and trained to believe that we are and other people can often see us in a different light. So combining those, we’re able to get a bit more of a full picture.
Brad K:
And the other aspect of hardwired makeup is even our motor skills, even our visual acuity, is impacted by the way we’re hardwired. So there’s clues, each person gives off clues and even some people are easier reads than other. But even with enough clues, I can tell people’s hardwire design without even having a questionnaire, by observing them enough. So you can find out why you take in matters the way you do and why you process them the way you do. And so whatever aspect of life you’re trying to apply that in, you can utilize that to know how you are prone to behave and perform.
Warwick F:
Wow, that’s amazing. So one question I had, just a little bit off topic, but we live near Washington D.C., in Annapolis and obviously these are happy days for Washingtonians, with the World Series. I grew up in Australia, which is kind of the land of cricket. I’ve lived here a long time so I know a little bit about baseball, but obviously not as much as you guys, but one of the things you heard talk was the Astros were all about analytics and the Nationals supposedly, yeah, they’re into analytics, but there was some gut feel and I sometimes think when people say gut feel, like you’ve got, again this is your area, not mine. We’ve got somebody like Dave Martinez has been in baseball for decades. Gut feel can be another word for years of experience that the brain like a cray computer kind of links up so that it’s not just so much, “Hey, I don’t know what I’m doing,” but there’s a lot of subconscious analysis there. But any thoughts about that whole like you know, one team was supposedly all about analytics and the other team not as much or is that a bit of a misnomer?
Brad K:
Well, I think analytics is used … probably, and analytics just means a deeper understanding, thoughtful analysis and obviously data gives us ability to quantify what we’re talking about. Gives us firm points and analytics is just additional information. I think scouts, when they talk about gut feel it, like you said, it’s just the years of experience and I’ve seen many guys like this and so this is how I see this playing out. And so analytics can be a good compliment to that. But the thing is the Astros upset a lot of people, a lot of the old time people in baseball, because they’ve got rid of a lot of their experienced scouts and just relied more on analyzing video in the office and statistics.
Brad K:
And you know, it’s interesting in that game, game seven, Greinke was pitching a great game and it’s almost like they couldn’t wait to get him out of there because they wanted to get them out after six innings. He was pitching so well they left him in, but as soon as he had weakness, in their view, they got him out and then the bullpen gave it up. So the Nationals have done a little bit more keeping some of the longtime scouts employed and so I think a lot of “baseball people” view them as the more traditional baseball organization so I think a lot of baseball people were pulling for the Nationals.
Warwick F:
Interesting. So analysis is good, but some of that subconscious, or you don’t want to dismiss somebody that’s had decades of scouting experience and probably is all analytics but maybe in a broader sense. So just as you think about what you’re doing, what’s your kind of dream or vision for hardwired and maybe even beyond hardwired? What’s your dream about humanity, or people, really understanding how they’re wired? What could this mean if people truly understood that?
Brad K:
Well, for one thing we’re not all equal and it’s okay. That’s okay. Men and women are different and we’re all different in ways, even among men and among women, and I think everyone is valued. If everyone understood they will be valued for what they bring to the table. And everyone’s afraid, “Well, one design is all good and one design is bad, so we should get rid of them.” And actually I’m concerned there are a few hardwired designs that are very hard to find, especially here in the United States where it’s a total immigrant population going back to our forefathers. I consider them almost to be endangered species because it’s almost like there’s genetic factors and so there’s one design that’s really like brown hair, brown eyes. It’s very dominant and even when you get them together, mating with a less common design, the more common one, the dominant one, tends to come out. So I see certain designs really overpopulating our population and I’m worried that other ones … because everyone has something to offer and I think people will be appreciated much more if we understood that .
Gary S:
So, you both have worked with me long enough to recognize the phrase I’m about to use. Land the plane. We’re coming up on when we want to kind of conclude this, wrap things up for listeners. Crucible Leadership is all about helping people live lives of significance out of their crucibles. As we said at the outset, a key component of that is embracing their crucible moment, learning from it, living with it, and understanding step one, how they were designed as a process of moving to a life of significance.
Gary S:
So people who are listening to this podcast understand that they’re here to get some hope and some inputs and insights and how to do that. Brad, you, through Max Q Performance, do have an assessment that will tell people how they’re wired. How can they find that and what will they learn about their wiring? What kinds of different types are there? You mentioned some types in your last comment. What kind of types will they find if they go to maxqperformance.com, take your assessment, lay that over what they’re learning in Crucible Leadership, how will that help them?
Brad K:
I think the easier question might be how would that not help. That’s a much shorter answer.
Gary S:
Good on you.
Warwick F:
Great point.
Brad K:
At maxqperformance.com they can find the assessments along with some more information about it, but we can tell you substantively if you’re left brain dominant or right brain dominant, much of the way you’re left handed or right handed, and even left brain right brain has some misunderstandings out in the public realm. We can tell you if you’re hardwired more in the front of the brain or the back of the brain and actually Warwick, you’re interesting in that I think you’re a reflective person, there is no question, but it’s because you like to … I think your mind is always going, too, though. You’re very much … all the strategizing, thinking about how things can be done better and-
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Brad K:
And the thing is that when Carl Jung coined these terms of extroversion and introversion, he was talking about the way you get your energy also, and so I think even that’s misunderstood in some ways. We can also tell you if your dominant, empathetic or analytic person and giving you those aspects, we can also tell you if you’re a conceptual or a sensate, one that uses more your five senses, or one that uses more your sixth sense of creativity and intuition.
Brad K:
So you can find out a lot of people. And to me really it’s funny because I always thought I was left brained. I like to be organized. Anybody in business feels that being organized is important but then as I found out more, I was more right brain, that explains why I’ve got … my office is a mess. I got files of stuff, projects I’m working on and everything and so why different ideas keep coming to my mind all the time.
Brad K:
So I find out things even about … I felt pretty good about myself, but I found out more about why I was the way I was and I can understand why I did some things that I wasn’t always proud of or some things I was really proud of, but just a lot of things made a lot of sense. And like said I, it even made me appreciate and understand my wife more and helped our relationship in many ways.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Well in conclusion, I’d like all the listeners to go to maxqperformance.com, take the assessment. I think the advice Brad says of having somebody else take it is great counsel because in the Crucible Leadership world, the foundation for leading a life of significance, a life on purpose and helping others is understanding your design, understanding your hardwired design, to use Brad’s term. If you don’t understand your design, then it’s really extremely difficult, if not impossible, to lead a fulfilling life, a life on purpose, a life of significance.
Warwick F:
So it’s incredibly important and so what Brad is doing is providing a tremendous service to people so it’s not limiting. I believe that if you understand how you’re wired, yes, maybe there are some things you weren’t designed to do, but it frees you up to do things maybe you never thought possible. So I feel it’s actually opens a whole huge window into the world so I’d encourage everybody to go to maxqperformance.com and understand how they’re hardwired.
Gary S:
Brad, thanks for spending time with us and a spirited, insightful conversation. Much appreciated. And listeners, hopefully you’ve learned some things here today about not just a crucible moment, but how you in coming back from that crucible moment and understanding how you’re wired, understanding how you’re designed, that is the trip wire for launching yourself in to that life of significance.
Gary S:
We love to hear your feedback here at Crucible Leadership. Please go to crucibleleadership.com. There’s a contact form there. You can let us know what you thought of this conversation. You can tell us your own crucible stories so that we can begin a dialogue, so that we can continue to help you along the path of you coming back, moving beyond your crucible.
Gary S:
If you’d like to engage with us on social media, you can come to Facebook and you can find us at Crucible Leadership. You can also find Warwick on LinkedIn at Warwick Fairfax. That’s with the silent W in the middle. W-A-R-W-I-C-K Fairfax, and until the next time we’re here together, thank you for listening to Beyond the Crucible.
Gary S:
If you like what you hear, you can click subscribe on whatever app you’re doing right now. You’ll never miss an episode. If you really like what you hear, share it on social media. Share it with your friends. Let other people what’s going on. These kinds of conversations like we had today between Warwick and Brad are the kinds of conversations we want to bring every week because our goal is to, yes, focus on crucible experiences. Focus on those painful moments, but not as an end in and of itself. We want to focus on those moments to help you realize, to help your friends realize, that crucible moments are painful. They are difficult. They can stop you, but it’s not the end of your story. It is in fact, if you embrace them and learn from them, the beginning of your story, because it’s a new chapter in your life that can be the best chapter yet because it leads in the end to a life of significance. Thanks again for spending time with us today.
We live in uncertain times. We currently live in a world where the coronavirus has spread across the globe. In many countries and in much of the U.S. we have been advised to take refuge in our homes. Restaurants are not open, many stores have closed. Many businesses have laid off workers. We fear getting sick. We fear losing our job and not having the means to support ourselves. Even if we are in reasonably good health, that is not a guarantee that we won’t get sick.
I am reminded of what Franklin Roosevelt said in his first inaugural address in 1933 at the height of the Great Depression:
“So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is…fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.”
That is not quite the case in what we are going through with the coronavirus pandemic. This virus poses a real threat, particularly to the elderly and those with preexisting medical conditions; and it poses a real threat to the economies of many nations.
But the fear of the unknown greatly amplifies the fears we have. Will I get sick? If I do get sick will I have mild or major symptoms? Will I have a job? How long will this last?
Those of us with fertile imaginations can greatly amplify our emotional and spiritual distress in what are trying times. True confession: I do have a vivid imagination, which helps in my role as a reflective adviser and thinker and does help with strategic planning. I am also by nature a cautious person. I don’t go bungee jumping or parachute diving. Before I do anything, I typically think very carefully. But in the current situation we are living in, these qualities are not always that helpful.
So, left to my own devices, I could easily let my imagination run wild and think of all sorts of worst-case scenarios, or perhaps even worse than worst case…
How do we stop being paralyzed by fear? Of course, we should take adequate precautions. We should shelter at home, minimize external contacts, wash our hands often, don’t touch our faces. We should do what we need to do, listening to the advice of the appropriate health and governmental authorities.
Even then, the fear of the unknown is so hard to deal with.
So here are some thoughts on trying to fight the fear of the unknown, replacing fear with hope. I say fight, because it is a daily battle; to not let our fear win.
1. Reflection
Sometimes reflecting on the sayings of people we most admire can help ground us in our inner beliefs and values. Here are a couple of great quotes on dealing with fear.
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” – Nelson Mandela
“Being brave isn’t the absence of fear. Being brave is having that fear but finding a way through it.” – Bear Grylls
These quotes emphasize the thought of not giving into fear, of fighting it, not letting it take hold. How do you this?
2. Mediation and Prayer
To me it starts with grounding ourselves in what we know to be true, our innermost beliefs. I think of these two Scriptures that help me as I meditate and pray:
“I will say of the Lord, ‘He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” – Psalm 91:2
“Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.” – 1 Peter 5:7
What these two verses emphasize is that from my perspective, God loves us. He is our refuge and fortress. We can trust him. We can cast all our anxieties on him. For me prayer centers me and calms my spirit.
Think of what you most cherish and hold dear. Meditate on those teachings. It could be from a religious tradition, wise sayings or a favorite book or poem. Something that brings you back to what you believe and a place of calm inner peace.
3. Take a walk in nature
Near where we live in Annapolis Maryland, there is a wonderful nature trail surrounded on two sides by water. It is a beautiful setting. We are currently in Florida in a condo near the beach, so thankfully we still have access to what is now a quiet place. Taking a long walk on the beach, listening to the water, the seagulls and the wind is definitely soothing.
4. Listen to your favorite music
If ever something can soothe your soul it is music, especially music that you love and are familiar with. It is like an old friend. I love all kinds of music: classical, jazz, classic pop (’60s and ’70s), ragtime, worship music. Given the importance of faith to me, listening to worship music that talks of casting out fear and trusting in God certainly helps. But any music that brings a smile to your face and calms your soul is a good thing.
5. Spend time with loved ones
While we are physically isolated from many, we can still spend time with our families. For many, spending this much time with our families may not be normal. Take advantage of this time. Try and play together, laugh together and listen to each other. As a friend of mine said, with our friends and extended family while we may have to be physically distant, we don’t have to be socially distant. We can still call our friends up, or with modern technology we can FaceTime them, or set up Zoom video calls.
6. Don’t put your life on hold
To the degree you can, try not to put your life on hold. Some may not be able to work remotely. However, many can work remotely. While you may not be physically connected to your co-workers, try to carry on as before. You can call them, have video conversations with them. Obsessively thinking about what might happen is not helpful. Get done today what you need to get done.
7. Stay informed, but not too much
It is good to stay informed. Growing up in a newspaper family, my natural mode is to stay informed; to know what is going on. But while this is important; looking up news sites every minute and looking at news channels all day long is not helpful. Tune in from time to time, but not all day.
8. Think of how you can help others
When we take the focus off ourselves and our fears, and think of how we can help others, it does two things. First, by thinking of others and not ourselves, it tends to reduce our fears. Second, it helps others. We might bring food to an elderly neighbor. We might call or have a video chat with a friend or family member, asking them how they are doing and trying to support and encourage them.
We live in uncertain times, where the fear of the unknown is very real. This is a minute-by- minute, hour-by-hour battle. When you start feeling fearful, be pro-active. Don’t wait for the fear to grow, which left to its own devices it tends to. Nip it in the bud. Use whatever go to tools work for you. Take a walk. Listen to your favorite piece of music. Pray and meditate.
While we can’t always control our circumstances, we can control our attitudes and how those circumstances affect us. It is not easy, but the spiritual and emotional battle is one that we can win. In that sense, Franklin Roosevelt was right: “the only thing we have to fear is…fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror.”
Let’s not let fear win.
Reflection
What are the best tools for you to calm and center yourself (mediation and prayer, a walk in nature, listening to music, spending time with those you love)?
What can you do today to move your life forward, at work or at home?
Who can you help or call today that will brighten up their day?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
If you’ve had a crucible experience, you are going to have to persevere through feelings of loss and fear, as well as additional setbacks, as you chart your course to a life of significance. Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax shares stories from his family history (his great-great grandfather John Fairfax) and world history (Winston Churchill), while also discussing his own efforts to claw his way back emotionally and practically after losing $2.25 billion — and the company itself — in a failed takeover of the family media dynasty he inherited. Perseverance is so critical to the stories of these men — and every man or woman who seeks to bounce back from a crucible experience — that it should be considered a gift that flows from our most challenging circumstances. “In our lowest moments,” Warwick tells co-host Gary Schneeberger, we find strength and courage and perseverance we never knew we had.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everyone to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, your co-host of the podcast and the Communications Director of Crucible leadership and you have clicked play. You have subscribed to, you have loaded, uploaded. You are listening to a podcast that helps people live and lead with significance. That’s the goal of Beyond the Crucible, to help you live and lead with significance, and we do that through the prism of crucible experiences. Those moments in life, we all recognize them. We may not call them crucible experiences when we have gone through them, but we recognize them as painful failures and setbacks that can feel like the world has changed. The course of the river of your life has been altered.
Gary S:
The trajectory of where you’re headed has shifted. They are painful experiences, but they’re not the end of your story. They are in many cases, the beginning of your story, if you do what we encourage you to do on this podcast, which is to learn the lessons of those crucible experiences, to apply those lessons, to craft a vision, to make that vision a reality, and to live a life that’s pointed to a life of significance. That’s what we talk about here at Beyond the Crucible. With us as always, is the architect, the author of Crucible Leadership, and the host of Beyond the Crucible, Warwick Fairfax.
Warwick F:
Hey, Gary, great to be here.
Gary S:
Warwick, we’ve got an indispensable subject I think we’re talking about today, and that is perseverance. One of the things, before we really get into talking about how perseverance works in our lives and how specifically it applies to leadership and Crucible Leadership, is that it seems that crucibles are the soil from which perseverance can grow. In other words, it’s really hard to envision a circumstance where you can move beyond your crucible, without having a measure of perseverance in your life. Is that a fair statement?
Warwick F:
Yes, Gary, absolutely. Many of us will go through a crucible of one description another it could be a business failure, getting fired, health challenge, loss of a loved one, and it’s not easy to come back from devastating setbacks. But without perseverance, it’s really tough to come back, and we’ll talk more about this as our discussion continues. It’s almost a choice to get out of bed or not. Do I this day, get out of bed and say, okay, I’m in a direst of circumstances, the lowest of lows, but I’m going to keep going. Perseverance is really the key to bouncing back from a crucible experience and certainly, the key to a fulfilling life or even to be a successful leader. I can’t think of any leader that I can think of that succeeded in their field without perseverance. You could pick business, athletics, the arts. It’s just tough. There’s setback after setback, disappointment after disappointment, but that sense of perseverance is the key to life and leadership and the key to bouncing back from crucibles.
Gary S:
It is true that it’s very hard to be a leader, to make your mark on society in whatever way that you choose to do it, without having some measure of perseverance. I do, as I always do when we do one of these episodes where it’s just the two of us talking about a principle of crucible leadership, I did a search for quotes about perseverance, like I do a search for quotes about character, and quotes about humility and about transparency and it returned, that search on Google returned 35,000 results. Perseverance is a topic that people talk about and that people who have achieved some level of significance slash success have had to muster in their lives. That’s why they talk about it.
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Gary S:
You said something when we were talking about how we were going to go through this episode yesterday. You said something I thought was just really poetic, where you talked about the gift of a crucible, and that the fruit of that, and one of the fruits of the gift of a crucible is perseverance. Explain what you meant by that.
Warwick F:
Crucibles are never fun, but out of the ashes of your crucible experience can come a vision. It could be to help others that have, if you’d been through terrible circumstances, whether it’s bereavement, losing a loved one, or abuse, you can have the sense of you want to help other people and so out of the ashes, a crucible experience can come as a sense of perseverance, a sense of wanting to help others to make a difference. Sometimes in our lowest moments, we find strength and courage and perseverance that we never knew we had. It’s really is, somebody once said, one of our recent podcast guests, we learn the most during the low points rather than the high point. It doesn’t feel fun at the time. It feels agonizing, excruciating but years down the track we’ll never really say, gosh I’m so glad I went through it, but there are things we learned about ourselves and about who we are and what our deepest desires and passions about and just how much character and strength and perseverance we have. That can be the fruit of a crucible experience.
Gary S:
That gift can truly be knowing that we can persevere. Knowing that we can survive. We talk about crucible experiences, difficult things that occur in life. One of those 33,000 quotes that I did pull is from Dr. Martin Luther King jr, and I just thought it was just extraordinarily phrased when he said this, “If you can’t fly, then run. If you can’t run, then walk. If you can’t walk, then crawl. But whatever you do, you have to keep moving forward.” At its core, especially in relation to leadership and crucible leadership moving forward, keeping in motion, keeping pressing toward the vision and the goal. That’s really what perseverance looks like in the universe that we’re talking about here, isn’t it?
Warwick F:
It is. That’s a very good quote and that is so true. Part of it is getting up every morning. It’s what am I going to do positively to move forward? If you’re unemployed, okay what is it I can do to find a job? Where can I go? Places I can volunteer, employment agencies who do I know? Maybe if you’ve been through some bereavement or abuse, how can I turn this experience to help others? So It’s really getting up in the morning and saying, okay, what positive step can I take today? I may not have the end vision or the total clarity about where this is going, but what’s something positive I can do today? To use an over worn sports analogy, what could I do to move the ball a few yards down the field?
Warwick F:
The touchdown may be so far away you can’t even see it, but don’t get so focused on, okay, there’s these millions of things that I got to do, how am I going to do at all? It’s what one thing can I do today that’s a positive step to move forward? Really that’s probably the key to perseverance as we were discussing earlier. It’s a choice. It’s a choice to move forward. There are several things that’s a bigger a topic, but I think of forgiveness. You can be sitting in bed saying, I’m not going to get out of bed today and do anything positive because I’m just going to sit and be angry at those people that hurt me or did me in or I’m going to be angry at myself.
Warwick F:
If that’s holding you back, which anger and resentment and lack of forgiveness can, it’s like a millstone around our neck. I don’t have to agree with things. I don’t have to say what happened was right, but I’m going to put that aside and I’m going to move forward because if it’s not serving me time to toss those negative emotions away. What positive thing can I do today? It’s really a choice to say, okay, no matter what’s happened in the past, how can I move forward? What one positive thing can I do today? That is the key because over days, weeks, months and years those series of positive things will almost inevitably lead to a very positive direction. If you keep doing that or at least it’s certainly better than the alternative.
Gary S:
That’s very wise to point out that no matter what happened in the past, you have to move on, move forward as that quote from Martin Luther King indicated. But there’s also sometimes no matter what may happen in the future, sometimes what can lead us to not want to get out of bed figuratively or literally is that we fear something that’s coming up. Fear of something that’s coming down the road. We fear where things might lead. It’s interesting that perseverance can be tied to what has come before and what may be coming up ahead that might be fearful to us. What would be your advice, Warwick? There are people listening right now and they’re in an emotional place where they don’t know if they have perseverance, they don’t know if they can muster perseverance. I know you said get up, put one foot in front of the other, but from an emotional perspective, how can listeners orient themselves to take that step? To put that left foot in front of the right foot and get moving.
Warwick F:
I think of two words and that’s hope and fear. Follow hope, not fear. I think of Margie Warrell who had on the podcast a bit ago and she is all about helping women and men be brave and toss away fear. She uses this phrase for the sake of what? We cannot let fear control us. It’s often fear is an emotion. Sometimes it can be helpful, there’s primitive men and women we’re out in the wilderness and bears coming, okay it’s understandable to be fearful. Let’s run. I get that.
Gary S:
Survival instinct.
Warwick F:
There’s a reason for it but don’t let the fear of the unknown or what if I fail again? What if I’m humiliated again? What if, what if, what if? It’s like, okay, that could happen, but you’ve got to be willing to take a risk. That’s a key part of perseverance is be willing to take a risk and that’s where, again, I love the phrase that Margie uses for the sake of what? It helps to have a vision. It maybe you’re a cancer survivor or again, an abuse survivor, your notion, maybe I want to help other people who are in my situation. That’s for the sake of what? I know I’m fearful. I know I might be rejected but this is too important. This is more than just me. I want to help other people.
Warwick F:
It’s that sense of hope, it’s that sense of cause it’s the vision. Maybe you’ve got a business that you have an idea of that you think will really help people. I’m a big believer with significance for the sake of being something that is more than just focused on yourself because to me to overcome fear and inertia when it’s for the sake of other people that to me is a higher wattage lamp or it has greater strength to pull you out of a funk and out of a, it’s all hopeless. Fear is a natural part of being human but I think it’s for the sense of hope, for the sake of what that says, okay, I know I’m fearful, I get that but I choose not to let my fears define me.
Warwick F:
Yes, I’ll be willing to fail. Maybe I’ll be mocked and rejected but you know what? This is too important, it’s not about me. It’s about helping others. That’s probably the key to conquering fear, which is the biggest reason you just don’t want to get out of bed. It’s like I was hurt badly last time. I’m never going to emerge again because I don’t want to get hurt. That’s understandable but you can’t let fear control your life. That leads to despondency and I think Margie Warrell also uses this phrase from Thoreau, which I love, which is we don’t want to lead lives of quiet desperation. You don’t want to be that man or that woman. You don’t want to be that person. The way to avoid living a life of quiet desperation is one foot in front of the other, get out of bed and just what is it that’s going to motivate you to take that next step? How can helping people really be part of that? That’s the key. It’s hope of a fear.
Gary S:
It sounds like as you described that, and I hope you hear this listeners, it sounds like the fuel, the same fuel that fuels being able to have perseverance, the same fuel of perseverance is the fuel of significance. Those things, a vision, a vision will lead you to a life of significance. If you know what it is you want to accomplish to help others, that will drive you. But that same vision will lead you to perseverance and lead you to bounce off walls that want to block you and find ways around walls that want to block you.
Warwick F:
Exactly. You have to have fuel and the fuel is vision, significance. That’s what helps you with perseverance. We’ll talk later about some examples from history and my family, in fact, my own life but that’s pretty much the key is got to be something that’s motivating you. Maybe you kind of destitute and your family is sort of in and out of halfway homes for the sake of what could be, I want my family to have a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs and that’s motivating, that’s a powerful vision too. It’s for the sake of what, what is your why that really can fuel you to be able to move forward.
Gary S:
Okay. You’ve just jumped ahead and what I was going to do by saying that it’s so fascinating. We did not talk about this listeners, we did not use the phrase, what is your why prior to this recording, but I pulled for the end of this podcast, I’m going to list three things that come from top business magazines about how you can find perseverance, how you can live in and pursue perseverance. One of the things, I’m going to give one of them away now, I’ll give two more at the end but one of the three things I was going to talk about, Success Magazine pointed out that fuel for perseverance is to remember your why. What is your vision? From a leadership perspective, a business perspective, that’s what Success Magazine in addition to you Warwick say is extremely important. We have two more coming towards the end. You mentioned Warwick, no go ahead.
Warwick F:
Just on that one real briefly. Especially in the world of crucible leadership, you’ve gone through a crucible, a devastating failure, a personal setback. The why can be rooted in, as I mentioned before, the ashes of that crucible experience. Whether it’s business failure or getting fired, a divorce, abused, loss of a loved one, it can be, okay, how can I use my pain to help others? When you’ve gone through certain experiences, it gives you a unique empathy for others. That’s really the key I find is often the why will come out of the ashes of the crucible. Doesn’t have to, but it often does.
Gary S:
That goes back listener and Warwick, that goes back to what I said at the top of the episode. That word that you said about the gift of the crucible, the gift of the crucible is the why for what it is that you’re going to pursue. You mentioned Warwick that we’re going to start talking about some examples and I’d like to have you, if you would start with a family example, your great, great grandfather, John Fairfax, because I have here, if you’re watching on YouTube, you’ll see it. I have here the book that you quote often on the life of John Fairfax. After you set up the story, Warwick about how perseverance played such a big role in John Fairfax’s founding of the media company that you were heir to, I want to read a couple of paragraphs from the book that really hammer home that really elucidate the perseverance that he and his wife Sarah had. Share with listeners a little bit about your great, great grandfather and his truly, truly perseverant life.
Warwick F:
John Fairfax came out from Australia in the late 1830s. He had started a newspaper in Leamington in England and he was sued by a local lawyer twice. The judge ruled in John Fairfax’s favor that the story was accurate, that it was not liable, but the court costs ended up bankrupted him even though he was justified in the court. He comes out to Australia with his young family with almost nothing, but that really didn’t discourage him. He had this vision of a paper that would in this young colony of Australia, and just a couple of things that he said to me it’s interesting. This dream kind of wouldn’t die. He was the local librarian in what’s now the State Library of New South Wales. He and the guy Charles Kemp, who would become the editor of the paper while John ran the business side they would sit long into the night and they had this vision of this newspaper, which would be the Sydney Morning Herald.
Warwick F:
They called it the plan because they wanted to buy it and run it collectively. This newspaper would be without fear to express opinion without their approach of self-interest. Sworn to no master and free from the narrow interest of sectarianism. It was a vision of how it would serve people without being beholden to one party or another. He talked about doing their utmost for the improvement and growth of the colony. John would handle the business side. His partner Charles Kemp would handle the journalistic side and together they collaborate on the editorial. They would fight for just causes and expose abuses. It was very idealistic, a very strong vision and it carried them through. One other brief thing almost within the same year that they bought the paper Sydney Morning Herald in 1841 Australia went through a big recession and the company was on a knife edge.
Warwick F:
They had to rally their employees and say, look, we’re going to have to cut wages back a bit. We’re going to cut back what we receive as partners, but I promise you’ll have a job and we’ll do our best to pay you back. It wasn’t easy, but what got them through that first crisis after they bought the paper, it was their belief in the vision that this was too important. They were going to do their level best to keep going. The vision really enabled John to get over his past disappointment in England, prior bankruptcy of his paper, the unjust treatment of that lawyer and just ability to get through the 1841 recession.
Gary S:
It also I’m going to read from this book the story of John Fairfax published in 1941 this was the hundredth year of Fairfax Media, the company that your great, great grandfather started. His vision also led him over the fear of what it was like moving from England to Australia. I want to read just a couple of paragraphs from this book because it’s so compelling about where perseverance comes from and how to live it. The book says this as they approached the coast, this is John and his wife Sarah. “John saw the stark forbidding barrenness of the land. He felt a terrible despondency and a concern for Sarah and her sick baby and the fear he felt for the future weighed upon him. He stood alone on the spray swept deck with his arms folded, bracing himself against the lurch of the ship as she pounded onwards and looked out at the sterile hope shattering strip of coastline that was the Southern border of his future homeland.”
Gary S:
“He thought of the responsibility, which was his of providing for a wife, a mother, and four children, and he thought of the 12 sovereigns, just 12 sovereigns which stood between them and starvation. He bowed his head and fear like ice stole over his heart better surely to have remained poor in Leamington than to starve in that sandy soulless wilderness.” Then this happens. “He felt a touch and a hand stole into his.”
Gary S:
“It was Sarah. She looked pale and ill and she staggered in her weakness as the ship plunged and shook”. This is a quote that I’ve seen you use before Warwick, but this is what Sarah John’s wife said to him, “Do not worry about me or the children. I will be brave and helpful and whatever God may send or may take away my love for you is the strongest thing I have in life and it will have no death. I do not worry about you. I know what you can do and it is much. I know your strength of purpose, your sound vigorous brain and your sense of honor. You are well armed John for any fray and you will win and I will win not only success but content and great happiness.” One of the aspects of perseverance for him was the support of his wife.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. It’s really quite remarkable as they were headed to Australia in the late 1830s it’s a four to six month voyage, they had young kids, one was very ill and sadly died soon after they made it to Sydney and she was not doing well, John was on the deck of this ship, they were looking as they were headed past West Australia, south, they looked at the barren wasteland and it just looked forbidding. It just looked like a terrible place. What are they doing? Yet she sensed it. She came up and just gave him this such love and unconditional support that having family and friends who are for us no matter what, that’s also one of the keys to perseverance.
Warwick F:
People that believe in you. There aren’t too many people that have achieved great things, men or women that don’t have a spouse, family or friends that were for them. There might be one or two, but it’s so much easier when you have people that believe in you that can keep you going just that one more step. He did in Sarah, a woman of great faith and she believed in him and believe in the vision that they were going to craft in this new colony of Australia.
Gary S:
That’s just one of the examples. You have some other examples from history of other, again, people that you have heard of and people that you haven’t heard of necessarily but there are people throughout history as we said at the outset to become a quote unquote great man or woman, a woman who’s left a mark on society of significance. You have had to exhibit persistence. True?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I think of another one when I think of great leaders in history who had perseverance. I think of Winston Churchill, he was somebody that he made mistakes. He tended to challenge leadership, which leadership doesn’t tend to like I’m afraid. Sometimes he was on the right side of history and sometimes not. But in the early thirties I think it was Stanley Baldwin was prime minister he challenged him maybe one too many times and he was back on the backbenches. In other words, he wasn’t in the Cabinet, he was in the wastelands so to speak of politics. The thirties are called wilderness years for Churchill. During that time from somewhere around about 33 on, Adolf Hitler started rising to power in Germany and Winston Churchill could see the danger, could see that if we don’t do something, things are going to get so much worse.
Warwick F:
He kept almost like a voice in the wilderness, like a Don Quixote saying, you got to watch this guy. They said, well, there’s old Winston. He was old even at the thirties, warmongering running around, shaking his fist at windmills. Just ignore him. It’s hard to ignore because he’s eloquent and bombastic, but let’s do our best it’ll all go away. Basically they were saying, let’s hide under the covers and maybe everything will just solve itself. But yet he never gave up. He kept speaking and trying to warn the nation, indeed the world about the dangers of Adolf Hitler but many didn’t listen. Gradually things started turning when Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia and it’s like, maybe Winston was right and then he invaded Poland, then in September 1939 World War II started and eventually the miraculous happened and he became prime minister and that’s where his perseverance came to the fore, some of the greatest speeches in the English speaking language occurred during those years.
Warwick F:
Just after he took power in May 1940, he gave this speech to parliament, which has these famous phrases, “I have nothing to offer, but blood, toil, tears and sweat.” He said in the same speech, “Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be. For without victory, there is no survival.” At that point it was really, it was before the US got in the war in December 1941, it was in 1940 those were dark years. It felt like Britain and the Commonwealth against all of the might of Germany. Then a few months later in 1940 he gave this famous speech. He said, “We shall not flag or fail. We shall fight in France. We shall fight on the seas and oceans…”
Warwick F:
“We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the field and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender.” That sense of belief that they would prevail when it didn’t look so good at the time the sense of perseverance and if you bring it back to, well how can we relate to this, but what was his why for the sake of what? Well, it was for the sake of the preservation of Britain as a free country and not being slaves to Nazi terror and the horrors of what the Nazi regime brought to the countries in Europe that they conquered. It was just this belief that we will find a way.
Warwick F:
Somehow they did. They found a way in the Battle of Britain to hold off the mighty Luftwaffe with the RAF. It was grim but that sense of perseverance being completely focused on the task at hand. He never let resentment or grudges hold him back. He just threw them off. He didn’t have time for that kind of stuff, and so he didn’t. He was totally focused on his goal, which is preserving his nation. That was a very compelling vision and he was able to inspire a nation like few others ever have. You heard Winston Churchill speak, it’s like you know what Winston thinks we’re going to do this. We’re going to find a way. We’ll find a way to survive. Just one more day, one more day of freedom in this particular case.
Gary S:
Now, I can imagine there are listeners right now who have just heard the story of John Fairfax, your great, great grandfather and Winston Churchill, two men who left pretty big legacies. Winston Churchill, as you pointed out, saved Britain, may have saved civilization in some sense as we know it. Your great, great grandfather created this media dynasty that lasted five generations and created deeper legacies of faith and character that are now in their sixth generation with your children and there may be people who hear that and go, my goodness, I can’t be a John Fairfax and I can’t be a Winston Churchill. I don’t know that I can do that. But that’s not the point. Perseverance leading to significance does not have to be that grand, does it?
Warwick F:
No. I can think of an example in my own life. As listeners will know from a prior podcast, after my $2.25 billion takeover failed and ultimately failed in late 1990 company went bankrupt. I felt responsible, certainly significantly responsible for the company falling out of family hands. It was a crushing blow. I tried to find work, but it’s hard when you got a resume that says out of work media mogul. I tried to persuade people look, I’m humble, I work hard. It’s like, right, forget it. I was desperate and it’s just sometimes the smallest, most insignificant steps, one of the things about perseverance is you’ve got to park your desire to not do things that are beneath you, you’ve got to be willing to do anything basically. One of the things I did is I went to some temp agency that found temporary positions for accountants and financial analysts.
Warwick F:
Well, a number of years before I’d worked on Wall Street and I knew I could do financial analysis and say, okay, great, well we have this little program that will test your understanding of spreadsheets on Excel. At the time I was actually pretty good. It was like, you scored well, you actually know how to do spreadsheets. I guess I do. I ended up having a temporary job at some sports company actually was a pretty big sports manufacturer. It just had an office in Maryland and I did some budgeting work and I seemed to do that okay. The same temp agency said, well, you’ve got good reviews from that employer. We’ve got another temporary position at a local aviation services company doing financial analysis. That temporary position at that company in Maryland turned into a permanent position where I worked for about six years.
Warwick F:
Then from there I went to coaching and moved on, but it was just taking one step. Okay. It feels a bit humiliating as a Harvard MBA to go to some temp agency that are looking for, paying in a minimal hourly wages for some financial analyst thing and I have a Harvard MBA. People in my class are working their way up to be vice president somewhere. But that was just one small step on the journey. I didn’t know where that was going to lead and that’s one of the other secrets of perseverance is I didn’t know that from this temp job at a sports company to an aviation services company to coaching, to writing a book on my experiences, leadership and now Crucible Leadership, I had no idea that was going to end up there.
Warwick F:
How could I possibly know? But just be willing to take that next step. It seemed logical at the time and don’t be too proud. If you feel like this is what you need to do, then do it. That’s a really small baby step to go to a temp agency and say, do you have anything for me? That’s not a big vision. It wasn’t really for me financial survival, it was more emotional survival. I have to do something to feel like I can contribute in some positive way using my skills and I’ve got to be able to get out of bed and do something constructive. That was a baby step. Just take a baby step. It doesn’t have to be saving Britain or a big newspaper from calamity. It can be just, what’s one thing I can do to help me and my family today?
Gary S:
That is an excellent place for us to drop the landing gear and begin to land the plane. I want to leave folks with one more quote I’ve found, which this one surprised me. This is from Albert Einstein. Albert Einstein said this, it’s not that I’m so smart, it’s just that I stay with problems longer. Your story makes me think of that Warwick, it took you a little while to find your vision to find your footing and move beyond that crucible experience but now you are living a thriving life of significance. You stayed with your problems longer. You worked at those very things that you’ve encouraged listeners to do. I promised that I was going to end us with persistence tips from top business magazines. Some takeaway for you, listener, as you’ve heard this discussion about perseverance, what are some practical steps you could take?
Gary S:
We’ve already touched on one to remember your why, what’s your vision? It doesn’t have to be big, it just has to be focused on helping others. That’s really what significance is found in helping others. If you’re stuck in a place and you feel like you can’t go on and you need to muster perseverance, remember your why Success Magazine suggests that one. Another one, and Warwick, you’ve exhibited this from the moment I met you. Forbes included this in their list of tips for having persistence in the wake of trials. Have a sense of humor. How important is a sense of humor when you’re talking about perseverance?
Warwick F:
It is. You’ve got to be willing to, I take life pretty seriously, but you got to be willing to laugh at yourself and your own foibles and it’s funny I do take life pretty seriously I have to confess, but you’ve got to be able to have a sense of humor in the process and really a sense of hope. Absolutely. I’m pondering this as Albert Einstein talked about, his work ethic, there’s a lot of things in life we can’t control, but we can choose to get out of bed we can choose to keep at it, to not give up, to keep finding a way. I like to think I’m as fearful as the next person. Maybe some people don’t have fear.
Warwick F:
Well, I’m a pretty fearful person. I have a vivid imagination about what can happen and what can go wrong. I’m a strategic planner. I get that, but it’s like, okay, I will not be conquered by fear. I will remember the why remember for the sake of what I’m doing it and have hope. That’s really the key and another one when we’re thinking about perseverance and significance is be open to things, opportunities that come our way. Be open to subtle shifts. One example that people know from the past, in about 12 years ago now, in 2008 the pastor of my church wanted me to give a message of what I’ve been through and somehow related to David who is a righteous person, falsely persecuted while that wasn’t me, I thought, okay, fine, I can give my story somehow even though I’m not a natural public speaker.
Warwick F:
Somehow that story provided hope as I was able to share what I went through and maybe some things that helped me get through it, that was okay. While I’m not necessarily a natural speaker, somehow my story connected. That’s what led to me working on a book on my experiences and ultimately to Crucible Leadership. When things happen in your life, pay attention and say, okay listen, this went well, why did it go well? What does that mean? Maybe I need to make a subtle shift in direction. Keep moving forward and be open to the subtle shifts that will maybe ultimately take you to your vision and to that life of significance. You may not see exactly where it’s all headed, but you sense, I think this is the good next step I’m sensing this is positive. Embrace hope, reject fear and listen for the subtle shifts that will take you to a life of significance.
Gary S:
Believe it or not, you did it again of the three things I was going to talk about, you mentioned the first one before I talked about it, I did get in the sense of humor idea from forest, but what you just said summarizes perfectly what Inc Magazine said about perseverance and that is to recall your past persistence. To recall the incidents in your past where perseverance has worked out. Where you’ve put one foot in front of the other and you just mentioned it Warwick, aviation services company and that led to you know, the speech to the church which led to the book which led to the Crucible Leadership. Those things become building blocks of perseverance that allow you to continue to pursue your vision toward a life of significance.
Warwick F:
One baby step of success gives you a bit of motivation to go the next step and it doesn’t have to be a big win. Just a little baby win or a little step, little positive step, okay, let’s keep going. That’s moving forward, reject fear, embrace hope and it’s for the sake of what? What’s the why? What’s the vision? What’s the life significance? Those are all keys to having perseverance.
Gary S:
That sound you heard listener was the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign. Warwick is going to get the last word because that was a great place to land the plane. We want to thank you Warwick and I want to thank you for joining us on Beyond the Crucible and if you found this discussion insightful and helpful as you pursue your own life of significance, we have a favor to ask that will help us help more people like you who are seeking a way to move beyond their crucible experiences and to find the perseverance to do so. Here it is. Please subscribe to Beyond the Crucible on the app you’re listening to it on right now. If you do so, it will allow you to make sure you do not miss an episode and it will make it easier for others to find us, listen to us and share the podcast with their friends and coworkers.
Gary S:
If you’ve heard something on this podcast that you’d like to learn more about, we encourage you to visit us on the web at crucibleleadership.com. One of the things that you can do there is read Warwick’s blog, sign up for emails to receive Warwick’s regular blogs where he writes about the very subjects we talked about here today. You can also take a free short assessment that will help you discover where you are on the path, on the continuum to your life of significance. What is the areas that you can work on in your life as you’re moving from crucible to significance? Where are you at in that journey, and what are some resources that we can offer to help you along the way? Until next time, please remember that yes, crucible experiences are painful and difficult, but they’re not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning of a new story, a new chapter in your story that can be the most exciting and joyous one of your life because it’s a path and a chapter that leads to a life of significance.
Craig Perra admits he’s the last person you’d expect to be a life coach. He was a corporate lawyer on the C-Suite track when his sexual and drug addictions left him at rock bottom in his career and his marriage, bringing him so low he attempted suicide. Then a mentor who had walked a similar path helped him overcome his demons through structured behavioral change that allowed him to understand the underlying causes of his destructive ways, create new, healthy habits … and save his relationship with his wife. Perra talks with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax about how life’s most painful moments can actually be gifts if they are harnessed to help us craft an intentional vision for moving forward with a purpose rooted in serving others. He’s helped clients in 27 countries reclaim hope and joy in their lives with his Mindful Habit system, which offers behavioral change insights anyone can apply to recover from crucibles of all stripes.
For more information on Craig Perra and the Mindful Habit System, visit www.mindfulhabit.com
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Welcome everyone to Beyond the Crucible, the podcast where we discuss crucible experiences, crucible moments, those things that are painful setbacks, can be tragedies, can be traumas, can be failures. And we talk about them for the reasons of not dwelling on them, not wallowing in them. But what we hope to have out of our conversations is to provide hope to the listener, provide insights to the listener on how you can come back from your own crucible moments, move beyond your crucibles, and then also action steps, what are some things you can do out of this conversation that you can then take with you to live your own life of significance. And with me, as always, is the founder of Crucible Leadership and the host of this broadcast, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, we got a good conversation today.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Good to be here and great to have Craig with us.
Gary S:
And I’m not sure if I introduced myself. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show, as well as the communications director for Crucible Leadership. That’s only so you know, listener, when Warwick or somebody says Gary, who he’s talking to. That’s me.
Gary S:
But more importantly is Craig who Warwick did indicate there. And I’m going to introduce Craig. And one of the things, listener, that we do that’s very exciting and interesting for us is we ask every guest we have on to provide us a biography. Craig did that. And throughout the conversation, please don’t think when I finish the last sentence of what Craig provided as his bio, that that’s the end of Craig story. And you’ll hear through the conversation with Warwick that it’s not. But I think what you’ll glean from this is kind of the character of Craig and where his heart lies in terms of his life of significance.
Gary S:
So, this is Craig Perra’s biography as he gave us. Adopted as an infant into a loving Catholic family. Mom and Dad tried their best. Mother was physically and verbally abusive. Dad worked his butt off from poverty to master’s degrees to being a famous regional sports coach. This instilled in me a drive for success. Never feeling good enough was a powerful motivation. I met my current wife and soulmate, Michelle, in college at UConn. What followed, lawyer, executive, fired two times. Liar, cheat, drug user, suicide attempt. That’s the snapshot of Craig’s life that will begin this discussion between the three of us. Warwick, take it away.
Warwick F:
Well, Craig, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it. You have a powerful story and love what you’re doing with mindfulness, which we’ll get to in a bit. But share a bit about your story and as that led in to your crucible experiences. Yeah, tell us a bit about Craig Perra.
Craig P:
Sure. Craig is born in failure. When I got asked to be on this podcast, Warwick and Gary, I was so excited because I’ve literally built a career, a life around colossal failures. And they were big. The last one was on the heels of a failure. I was back in Massachusetts where I used to live with my family about 12 years ago. I was assistant general counsel for $3 billion company. And anyone who’s done the corporate thing knows those are nice jobs. Lawyers really, really like them. They have their own pressures, but not the pressures of private practice. Had an amazing boss, and it was a great company. But I got fired. I got fired not because they caught me doing anything wrong.
Craig P:
I got fired because I wasn’t performing, plus I lied to my boss about something trivial. “Craig is that a coffee mug?” “No boss, that’s not the coffee mug.” “Are you sure that’s not a coffee mug? I’m looking at it. It looks like one, Craig.” He gave me 30 opportunities to answer a small trivial question and I’m literally, it wasn’t about the mug obviously, it was about did I do something. “No, I didn’t do that.” “Are you sure, I’m positive you did. Three people told me you did.” No, but I had gotten stuck in the lie. I just didn’t have the courage to say, yeah, I goofed. I made a mistake. I shouldn’t have done that. That little small, trivial insignificant thing that would have been a normal learning opportunity for normal people.
Craig P:
I got fired from that job, become the comeback kid, I get a better job. I now am in charge of Esurance’s compliance department. I’m taking on a role and responsibility that I hadn’t before, national responsibility, leading a bigger team for the first time. And that was like literally jumping off a cliff. It was at that low point, I mean, I was so low, I tried to kill myself. 10 months after getting fired from the first job, I got fired from my second job. I was out of my mind. I was using drugs. There was a scene in one of the Christmas movies where Chevy Chase is intoxicated and he’s shoving the salmon in his Santa coat and he’s stumbling around drunk. I wasn’t that bad, but there was one time where I was clearly under the influence at work.
Craig P:
I had a long successful career, I didn’t get to that job where I would have, you know, if I continued to be successful, I would have been running the compliance department, chief compliance officer for a billion dollar a year company. And I hated my life, I hated the job. I did not get along with my boss. I didn’t see people around me that I wanted as mentors. I saw a lot of unhappy people and that realization that here I am in California, I’m stuck, there’s no way out. I stuck my face in a pile of bath salts, that’s that synthetic chemical you might have read about 15 years ago where people were losing their minds, now illegal, thank goodness. Worse than PCP and meth put together. I thought that would be a good idea. And so I got addicted to that chemical.
Craig P:
I did not kill myself, obviously, it was an unsuccessful attempt. More of a cry for help. But what that did is that forced me into getting help. And that’s when things turned around in a pretty significant way. So, I’ll stop there to see if you have any questions and then I could keep going regarding the comeback. But I wanted you to see this, I get fired and I’m screwed, what am I going to do. I’m a lawyer, I don’t have a license to practice in California. I’m out in California, I’m stuck. I tried to find another job, there wasn’t another employer that needed my skill set for 80 miles. I would have had to move again. I felt so trapped, I felt so trapped. I was so unhappy in so many aspects of my life.
Craig P:
I remember sitting in the car and pouring all the drugs out and just said, you know what, if this does it, fine. Clearly a cowardly move and one I’m glad didn’t work. But that was the low point.
Warwick F:
One of the things you’ve said, which really amazes me is on your website, you are so open about all the challenges that you’ve been through. It sort of blew my mind reading it, to be honest. It’s like, wow, you lay it all out there. One of the things you talk about as well as in just videos you’ve done is your relationship with your wife, I think somewhere around that time was in a pretty bad place. So talk a bit about because it’s getting fired and drug addiction, all is one thing, which is just horrendous. But then on top of all that, your relationship with your wife and just for a variety reasons, that was in a bit of a challenging space. Talk about that on top of everything else. It just felt like you were just hit with a tsunami of just different challenges.
Craig P:
And so, part of my coping strategy has always been as a man, doing what “guys do.” Having affairs, lying, cheating. I had rationalized clearly under the sign under the light of day deviant behavior, but I had rationalized that for so, so, so long. At the core was my heart. It wasn’t anything my wife did. It wasn’t anything that she could have done differently. You can’t give what you don’t have. And I hated myself and I wasn’t able to open myself up to connect with her as a husband should. I blamed her, and this is so common in my work. There’s so much resentment and projection onto the wife. The wife becomes mother, my wife had become my mother. She wasn’t trying to be my mother, she was trying to keep the ship rolling and dumping out the water. We have two beautiful, incredible children.
Craig P:
And she’s my best friend. We met in college, I’ll never forget. We met by the subway truck, the sandwich truck, the little portable truck where you get your Subway sandwiches. I joked and I saw her reflection off the BMT sandwich and she had this black leather jacket on. We were listening to the same music. And I literally said to myself, I’m going to marry this woman someday. And I was in no position at that time to get married, but I knew there was something special about her and we became best friends before we started dating. She is my soulmate, she is my best friend. I crapped all over that relationship. And it was so bad, her intention. Now, she did look down at me. She looked down at me, and she extended her hand, said, “Husband, you’re the father of my children, I want to help you. I don’t think we’re going to make it. I don’t think we’re going to make it but I want to help you.”
Craig P:
And it was that that act of kindness, that just showing of love moves me in a deep way. And it has been my inspiration since then is helping other men heal from the lies and betrayals and the secrets they’ve kept from their wives. We just celebrated our 21st wedding anniversary. We’ve never been happier. We do calls together for the wives that are in my program. And she said something two weeks ago that I’ll never forget. She said that she wouldn’t go back and change a thing. She would not change a thing. And the reason why she said she wouldn’t change a thing because while she didn’t like the pain, didn’t like the suffering, didn’t like the feelings of insecurity and not being good enough for her husband, it made her who she was.
Craig P:
And it’s because of those experiences that she was forced to grow in ways that she couldn’t imagine. And clearly, I was forced to grow in ways that I didn’t realize. But it also forced us to grow together because when I kind of woke up from that low point, like wait a minute, there’s got to be other options. There’s not one job. I had such blinders on. But yeah, we just celebrated 21 years and we’ve never been happier. I put that poor woman through hell.
Gary S:
I’m going to jump in here because you use the phrase low point a few times, Craig, both in relation to your experience professionally, personally, and in your marriage and how your wife felt. And one of the things that really intrigued me about some of the information that you sent to us, and it’s very interesting in light of what crucible leadership talks about and what Warwick has gone through himself and what he offers people through Crucible Leadership. But you said this, which really struck me, “Your lowest point is an incredible gift.” Warwick talks about it as I said at the top of the show, your crucible experiences can be not the end of your story, but the beginning of a new chapter in your story if you learn the lessons from them.
Gary S:
So, it’s extremely interesting, you hear Warwick tell his story, listeners have heard him tell his story. Very different practically, very different in detail from your story, Craig. Yet, the emotions and the perspective that comes out of that, from that low moment, can come healing, hope, the best moments of your life. It’s extraordinary how, and listeners, I want you to hear this too, your stories probably differ from Warwick’s and Craig’s both, but those emotions that you feel by digging in, by recognizing that your lowest point is an incredible gift, by recognizing that your crucible experience, if you learn from it and apply those lessons can lead you toward a life of significance is a truism.
Gary S:
How do you guys react to that knowing that your stories are so different, and yet the emotions behind them in the way that you crawled back from them, you clawed your way back from them are very similar?
Warwick F:
That is such a profound point that our lowest moments can be a gift. It’s not a, push pause for one second because I want to make sure that listeners understand what was the motivations that led you to that low point because by understanding the motivations, it then helps the listeners understand how you bounce back from that. What were the things, because you got this stuff on top of the surface, which was getting fired from a great job, drug addiction, cheating on your wife. Was a variety of different challenges. But typically, there’s something beneath that that causes the behavior. If we don’t understand the behavior, we can’t help stop that, turn the ship. So what was the underlying thoughts or motivations that led you to just that incredible low point that you went through?
Craig P:
Great question, Warwick. It was, I felt trapped. I felt trapped. I saw my life unfold. Now I’m peeking into the C suite, I’m now in the room. I’m now in the room, the C level executives. I’m not there yet, but if things go as planned, I am the Chief Compliance Officer for this billion dollar company. So much excitement, so much opportunity. I didn’t want that. I never wanted that. I remember back in college I want, mom, dad, I want to be a teacher. I want to be a teacher, I want to teach people. My dad was a teacher, became a very successful teacher administrator, big soccer complex named after my father. And no, you’re better than that, be a lawyer, be a lawyer. And I had the natural skill set to be a lawyer, and I loved it.
Craig P:
But I never felt like I was in charge of my destiny. I remember when we were putting together the specs of our new house together that my wife and I built in Massachusetts, I’ll never forget how resentful I was about the granite countertops. It’s like, this is what I’m working for? This is what I’m doing in my life? I was so unhappy. I was doing what I thought I was supposed to do. I was following that trajectory and I was so, so unhappy. I wasn’t fulfilled. I felt trapped, Warwick, that’s what it was.
Warwick F:
And it’s interesting, getting back to Gary’s question, that I can relate to. So it almost feels like you were living somebody else’s dream. Every parent likes to think that their kids will do better than they did. But better often for some people means more status, more money, more prestige. Better doesn’t have to be defined that way, but it sounds like for you, it’s like, hey, I was a teacher, you need to do better than that from his perspective. I think teacher is a wonderful profession but I get your dad’s perspective. Almost felt like you were being forced into a role you didn’t want to and you were medicating the pain in a variety of different ways, including marital cheating and drugs and what have you. Is that like a fair comment? It was almost like you were being forced into a role you didn’t want to be and you were medicating the frustration.
Craig P:
Yes, that’s exactly right. There were these different parts of me. There was the part of me that went to work, that enjoyed analyzing compliance related issues because it’s a fascinating field, it’s where the law and the business intersect, and I was very good at it. I had an executive business background, I had a legal background. It was perfect. It was perfect. That’s exactly what someone with my skill set should do. But I was miserable. I did not feel fulfilled. I didn’t like the job. Not the company, the company was a great company. And thousands of people have very successful careers there. But I felt I wasn’t me. And instead of finding me, I instead escaped from being me. And at various points in my life, I escaped from being me with drugs and prostitutes.
Craig P:
And those two things collided in a big ugly way 10 years ago, because now, not only was I trapped in a career, now I’m trapped in this job. I can’t go anyplace else because I looked online, there’s no other company that needed someone with my expertise, they were 80 miles away. I knew that I’d have to lose a big chunk of income and I lacked the courage to say, I am unhappy. I lacked the courage to say I am unhappy. That is the truth for so many of my clients, and I see it all the time. They lack the courage and the intestinal fortitude to say, hey, I’m on the wrong track, I need to get back to my center to do something that’s going to lift me up.
Craig P:
And for me, it took a rock bottom for that to happen. So that’s back to where Gary was talking about this being a gift. The thought of me being a life coach with my background is preposterous, it’s ridiculous. People laugh. People laughed when they heard it back then. Here we are eight years later with clients in 27 countries, a successful program, world famous client base. It took that low point to help me forge the path that was going to fulfill me and enrich me and inspire me.
Warwick F:
And I want to hear in a brief second about that inspiration. But as you share your story, it’s very different than mine, but yet there are similarities that a lot of our listeners would know growing up in a 150 year old, large family media business in Australia. The expectations are very clear, you will go into that, you will prepare yourself, and you will make the company even greater than it was before. You will do better than previous generations and you have no other options because why wouldn’t you want to be in a family media business that does great service to the community, don’t you care about your country, about your community. How could you not want to do that? So hence, Oxford, Wall Street, Harvard Business School, I wasn’t really that interested in business, to be honest. Still I’m not. I’m more of a reflective advisor.
Warwick F:
But I never thought to rebel because I loved my parents and how could I let my parents down. Not quite the nation, but how can I let people down. So, yeah, I was miserable and totally out of my depth. And it was, yeah, grim. So everybody deals with that in different ways. But that sounds eerily similar. So I guess, I mean, obviously, I have my own ways I try to claw myself back, but how did you claw your way back? You mentioned that failure can be a gift. How did you change your perspective to see it as a gift, to get your career back on track, your marriage back on track? How did you, because a lot of people listening to you are saying, that’s irrecoverable. You can’t recover from all those things. It’s kind of game over. How did you bounce back?
Craig P:
I found a mentor who had been through my struggles. I had done a lot of counseling, I had done a lot of therapy in my life. And that was valuable, that was valuable. But none of those people had walked in my shoes. And in fact, when push comes to shove, they probably had no idea beyond what they read about in their books what I was going through. I found somebody who, his name was George Collins. He is a therapist in Walnut Creek, California. He specializes in working with men struggling with compulsive sexual behavior. And that’s what mine was, and the drugs of course. He did it, he was happy. So then maybe I can be too.
Craig P:
And so, having a mentor, having a therapist, a counselor is critical. And as someone who provides those services, I acknowledge to clients how self-serving that statement is. And it is what it is, you know, and it is what it is. So that was very important to me.
Warwick F:
Okay. So being a mentor …
Craig P:
Having a mentor.
Warwick F:
That was a key. You mentioned there’s a sense of therapy almost in helping other people. I’ve certainly found that as I talk about failure and getting the odd letter from folks as I did the other day from a woman classmate at Harvard Business School. Sharing about some of her business challenges and feeling like, hey, there’s somebody else that’s been there, she felt like she wasn’t alone. It’s a different area. So, a mentor is helpful. So what was some of the other things that helped you get your life back on track? Your marriage, for instance? That’s a miracle in of itself. There are many marriages that wouldn’t survive.
Craig P:
And in fact, my wife was done. She was pretty clear on her intentions. She had been down this road before with me. Clearly, I wasn’t somebody who could be faithful. She said that she was going to stick around to help me get back on my feet because I was the sole provider. I was the guy who made the money to feed the family. And so, she was going to support me till I got back on my feet. And then she’d separate, then she’d end the marriage.
Craig P:
A lot of things happened at that low point, a lot of things happened to me at that low point. So I found a mentor. I also started to find purpose, purpose, like, wait, there’s something very liberating about being at that low point. In other words, there’s only up. Down was death. And I decided that I wasn’t going to do that, I’m a father, what are you thinking, man, snap out of it. There’s got to be another way besides that. I said to myself that as long as I am in the house, as long as I am in her presence, I’m going to do everything humanly possible to show her that I can be a kind, caring, compassionate, loving husband and save the relationship. And that’s what I did. And it wasn’t easy.
Craig P:
Clearly, I have intimacy issues, I have issues around connecting. I was sexually abused as a child, so sexual anorexia, which means it just doesn’t flow naturally when there’s love involved. Stranger, boom bada bing, easy peasy. But when there’s love and connection, that was a challenge for me. And we saw, we met each one of those challenges together and had an incredible time in the process. And there were no resources out there for the partners of someone like me.
Craig P:
And the only resources that were out there was either she’s codependent or she’s a co-addict. It was all framed around 12 steps, which is a treatment modality 85 years old invented for alcohol that’s now applied to other things. That didn’t resonate with me. It didn’t resonate with her. So she started blogging and just sharing her experience, sharing her story. Well, that took off. Then came the Anderson Cooper Show. Then came the Katie Couric show and then came Lifetime. Now I’m kind of cramming a whole bunch of things together. But together, we just had so much joy helping people. And that’s how it all started, that’s how it all started.
Warwick F:
One of the things I think you’ve said, and correct me if I’m wrong, is you’re at a low point, marriage, business, all sorts of things going on. But you made a decision of the will, I’m not going to abandon my kids. Suicide is not an option. I am going to resurrect this marriage. I’m going to do whatever it takes to deal with these very difficult issues. Maybe 12 step programs are great programs, maybe didn’t quite fit your situation. There’s no one size fits all. But you and your wife were determined. And she was obviously incredibly courageous too that you just felt like we were going to make a decision of the will to get through this, to get your career, life, marriage on track. Does that feel right that you made a decision?
Craig P:
Yes.
Warwick F:
And many people would say, that’s a silly decision because there’s no hope, but even where you didn’t feel like much hope, you made a decision of the will. Was that a key turning point for you?
Craig P:
Key turning point, key turning point. And as ridiculous as it sounded, in the moment, you’ve got to imagine the dinner tape. So my wife and I just had been anonymously helping people. Responding to comments on a blog, just little, very basic stuff. But it was growing, and there was momentum. And I saw a void that I could fill. I used to, one of the things I got trained in was how to build curriculum. I saw that the treatment modality that most people were using didn’t address habits, didn’t incorporate mindfulness, didn’t really have a sense of purpose. Didn’t specifically create healthy in that area. And I said, you know what, I can build a course, I can build a better program that’s going to move the right guy further faster. That is what drove me.
Craig P:
But there was a time, I’ll never forget this time, we’re sitting there at dinner with her parents, my wife’s parents. They know everything, they know rock bottom, they know that I had done it again, I’d gotten fired again. And I remember looking over at my father-in-law to tell him that his daughter and I decided to be life coaches. And you could see the look on his face, like what are you thinking? He had 50 questions. Now we had answers for all those 50 questions. He’s a business-minded man so we knew, we were like, we’re going to meet with an investor. We were prepared for those questions. But it was in making the decision together and then realizing that we had something special, there was a hole that we could fill, and that hole was massive. And that really inspired us to keep pushing and keep chugging along to bring us where we are today, which is, we’re just getting warmed up today.
Warwick F:
I want to talk about mindfulness but I just want to recap for the listeners a couple key takeaways that I’m hearing so far. One is you made a decision of the will that these challenges, business and marital, were not going to define you. And the second was just this sense of purpose. I’m sensing you saying the healing power of purpose, which I have a feeling might be part of mindfulness. Talk about the healing power of purpose and how that plays into the whole mindfulness program, which sounds amazing. So talk about purpose and mindfulness.
Craig P:
The whole thing is mindfulness. Some of it is mindfulness in disguise. When I talk about habits, other parts of my program, I’m explicit when I’m talking about traditional mindfulness. But one of the things that I’ve learned about human beings is that we are needs-seeking organisms. Everything we do, from what we say to what we do is a conditioned response to get needs met. If, if, if, if, you can align that need with what you’re great at and what you love to do, well, life is going to be a heck of a lot easier for you because as we all know, life is hard enough as it is to be doing something that you hate, where you don’t feel fulfilled, where you’re never feeling good enough.
Craig P:
And there’s something very mindful, which means, like, wait, what is it that I want to do that’s going to contribute value to the world, and how am I going to use that to inspire other people? Really, I think, as you said, it’s a mindful principle because it’s being mindful about what drives you, what feeds you, what inspires you. So that journey from rock bottom forced me to answer all those questions because I was not going to make that mistake again.
Craig P:
And so, that’s where the mindfulness comes in. It’s mindful around who I am, what do I love to do, how am I going to serve, and what feeds me, the Native American story of feeding the right wolf is a great inspiration to me. And it’s an old story, but these old tales have an awful lot of science wrapped up in them and understanding, how you’re going to feed that right wolf inside you and me helping clients get there, and of course, me finding my own sense of purpose. It’s like mindfulness at its core in a sense of how are you going to feed that part of you that needs significance, that needs loving connection, that needs community? So yeah, I hope I answered your question.
Warwick F:
Yeah, yeah. No, you did. I’d love to hear, personally as I’m sure the listeners would, what meeting those needs meant for you. But in addition to purpose, we all have needs, but trying to meet those needs in a constructive way that fits in with your innate gifting, passions and talents to accomplish, and we use this term a lot, a life of significance, a life of helping others, it feels like that was the key to mindfulness for you is meeting those needs in a positive way that’s in line with what you love to do in a constructive way. That feels like that was key. So what does it look like for you? You’re wired a very specific way, as we all are. How did you meet those needs in a constructive way in a way that helped you live a life of significance?
Craig P:
So it was Martin Luther King Jr.’s Speech called The Drum Major Instinct had a massive impact on me. Of all the things that I listened to, there was something about him recognizing that we all have this drum major in us. And the drum major is the guy at the front of the parade with the shiny outfit waving the baton. To some degree, maybe we don’t want to be him, but we want that attention and we want that significance. And there was something about that that I had gone the eastern way, which is to not desire and I didn’t want anything and I took jobs that wasn’t very fulfilling because I thought I was being mindful, but I wasn’t. I was still unhappy, I was still seeking. And it was literally that alignment of me realizing that if I have this need to be significant, to get positive attention, then I’m going to do it in the service of others.
Craig P:
And it was like in that moment, where like, I have the skill set, I have the aptitude, I have the writing skills, I’ve got the personality. I just saw that all these things were in perfect alignment and that’s how I learned that I had to feed the right wolf, and that’s when things changed for me in a dramatic way. I recognized that I had these needs, it didn’t make me a weak person because I want to be important and want to be significant. But if I am going to be an important significant, do it in the service of others and be the biggest star in the world. But if you’re helping other people, rock on.
Warwick F:
So when you said the right wolf, to summarize it in like a sentence or two, what does the right wolf look like for Craig Perra? When Craig Perra is being who Craig Perra needs to be kind of in service of others, what does it look like?
Craig P:
He is driving results where other people haven’t. My niche, Warwick and Gary, I’m in the sex and porn addiction. field. And so, my clients don’t share on Facebook that they work with me. If they did, I’d be on Oprah, I’d be on Ellen because I have worked with titans of industry, professional athletes, professional, Hollywood icons. There’s a list that goes on and on. Hey, can one of your guys just put on Facebook how life-changing this program was. But when my wolf is being fed, I’m taking what I’ve learned, and I’m helping other people change their lives and driving results quicker than they were able to get someplace else, better and bigger than they were able to get someplace else because most of my clients come to me on the heels of inpatient stays, years and years and years of therapy. So that’s when I’m on fire when I’m driving those results, and that’s what feeds me.
Gary S:
As we say on Beyond the Crucible, it’s not time to land the plane yet, but the captain has turned on the fasten seat belt sign. And one thing that we want to make sure that we get to is for listeners who are hearing what you’re saying, Craig, and who believe that you may be able to help them in some way, how can folks engage with the Mindful Habit and with you?
Craig P:
Sure. Absolutely. Thank you, Gary. First is I have a podcast available on all major platforms called Sex, Afflictions and Porn Addiction. So, a whole bunch of great episodes there where I speak my heart and my truth, and some great interviews as well. My website is www.themindfulhabit.com. There’s some free training there, there’s ways to contact me, there’s a phone number. I’ve got a receptionist who’s ready for your call. So yeah, go to the website and reach out if you are struggling and you need help.
Warwick F:
One question I have is obviously, you mentioned, you have a particular focus on people with sexual addictions, that kind of thing. But I have a feeling this mindfulness concept of living a life on purpose, feeding the right wolf, kind of being who you were designed to be helping others, that that could help people with other addictions, even other challenges. Maybe they got fired and they feel worthless. They’re in the wrong slot or round peg in a square hole. So I know you have a particular focus, but do you feel like that your whole mindfulness concept can help a broader group of people too?
Craig P:
Yes. And so what I’ve done is I’ve taken certain aspects of mindfulness and made them very practical, being mindful of your triggers, of your thoughts. And quite frankly, for every addiction, you know what I think the real addiction is, the addiction is to our thoughts, those repeating thoughts over and over and over again. So, I’ve got a five year plan. I talked about that, all these people say how great I am. Warwick, you’re absolutely right.
Craig P:
My next product is a general addiction addicted to your thoughts product. We’re moving from my narrow, safe, secure place of sex and porn addiction into mainstream, and that’s happening in 2020. We’re super, super excited about that. And that’s I think going to open up just people to say, oh yeah, check this guy out. Now you can’t do that because if you refer someone to me, a friend, the friend is going to say, wait a minute, how do you know about him even if the principle is deep and profound. So yeah, we’ve got a five year plan and we’re taking over and it’s going to be really exciting to see where this goes.
Gary S:
And it could lead to more people sharing on social media that they’re working with because you’ll be expanded and people will know exactly what they’re doing.
Craig P:
Exactly, exactly. That’s right. I mean, if I, I can’t, but if I did share my client list or if they shared that they worked with me, my life would be so dramatically different. Guys, it really is crazy, crazy, crazy. You’d be like, oh my god, wow. And what I’ve done is I created a system, it’s called the Mindful Habit System, and it goes back to my corporate days, which is, when I’ve got to teach a compliance item, I need a desired outcome, and I need learning objectives that are going to support that desired outcome. Those were things that were missing in my therapy. And those are things that my executive clients love that give them a framework, give them a structure, and they’re off to the races. And so, I built this system that’s centered around mindfulness and habits. I see them as these two opposites almost. And teaching people to be mindful of their habits has led to significant life change. So, we really got some fun things in store for sure.
Warwick F:
If we have to sum this all up, somebody might be listening right now, they’re at a low point, could be sexual porn addiction, addictions in general, or it could be just depressed life has just not turned out the way they want to, maybe they’re even thinking of suicide. Why should somebody at their lowest point see that as a gift, and as importantly, why should they have hope? Why should there be hope at your lowest point?
Craig P:
Think of the scene in the movie, I’m 49 so I remember the Rocky movie, Rocky is the boxer, the American boxer. And anybody who’s seen that movie remembers that scene in the movie, where he’s down, he’s down, he’s down, he’s been beaten again, he hasn’t blocked the punches, he’s getting older. And then there’s this step, this conscious choice to get up, and there’s that little shred of hope that at least that there’s something that’s better than this. And so I tell people, you are going to look back on this low point with a sense of pride, with a sense of learning and reverence, where this low point where you’re so out of alignment with who you think you are and who you want to be, that’s your gift. This is your body telling you that things are off and this is your inspiration and your motivation to get them back on. And that journey is incredible.
Gary S:
To continue the Rocky metaphor, I think I just heard the bell ringing. I think our bout, our round is done. The plane’s going to land. Let me summarize for you, listeners, what we’ve learned here today. And the first thing is the last point that Craig just made that Warwick asked Craig about and that is, your lowest point can be a gift. Warwick talks about it a lot, Crucible Leadership talks about it a lot. From your Crucible Experiences can be birthed a change in trajectory of your life that will lead you to a better place, a new chapter. It can feel really bad when you’re in it, it can feel devastating when you’re in it. But if you learn the lessons of it, if you’re mindful of it, as Craig talks about, you can write a new chapter to a new story that leads to significance and purpose. That’s really takeaway number one.
Gary S:
I think the second takeaway from what we heard Craig talk about today, and it’s so encouraging to me in working with Crucible Leadership to see when Crucible Leadership concepts are mirrored in another person’s concepts whose story couldn’t be more different from Warwick’s, but the bounce back and the insights are the same. And that’s this, Craig said, it takes courage to say I’m on the wrong track for my life. It takes courage. And so, we encourage you listener, if you’re in that place where you feel like you’re on the wrong track, if you feel like your purpose is not being fulfilled, you can muster that courage and you can look to something different that more aligns with what Warwick talks about, your vision and values, and what Craig has talked about about habits and mindfulness.
Gary S:
And then the last truly practical step that you can take, listener, is this. Craig mentioned it, it turned his life around. Warwick’s talked about it too. Find yourself a mentor, and not just any mentor, but look for someone, as Craig put it, someone who has walked in your shoes. When that moment happened for him, after failed attempts in therapy, failed attempts in bouncing back from these addictions that plagued him, that changed everything. He found a mentor who had walked in his shoes, and that mentor led him to a place that allowed him to get to where he is now. Both Warwick and Craig are examples of people who have leveraged the power of a mentor who understands to turn their life around and to live a life of significance.
Gary S:
So, thank you listeners for spending time with us, and we have a couple of quick favors to ask of you. One, if you liked what you heard here today with Craig Perra and Warwick talking about their crucibles and about how Craig came out of his through developing some mindfulness and some habits that changed the way he thought and acted, if you enjoyed this conversation, if you’ve enjoyed previous conversations, right now, you’re listening to this podcast on an app. There’s a subscription button somewhere on that app, we would ask you, please, to subscribe to the app. Helps you because you’ll never miss an episode, helps us because it helps us get this message out, get our guests out to more and more people.
Gary S:
And then the last thing that we would ask you to do because we think it can help you along the journey that you’re on. Warwick’s been on a journey, Craig’s just described his journey. We have at crucibleleadership.com an assessment you can take. It’s like a three minute assessment, very short. But what you’ll get out of that is a read back, some feedback that will tell you where you are on your journey from your Crucible Experience to establishing that life of significance. Where are you at and where do you need to focus your efforts to make sure that you’re successful in getting yourself towards significance, as Craig has been, and as Warwick has been, and as so many of you have told us already, you’re on that road and you’re pursuing your passions, you’re pursuing your purpose, and you’re off on a run to your life of significance.
Gary S:
So, until we get together next time, thank you for listening. And remember, your crucible experience is painful, it can be devastating. It can feel like it’s the end of the world. You can feel like there is no hope. But as Craig pointed out here today, that low point is a gift. And if you lean into that gift, you learn the lessons of that gift, you will begin to write a chapter in your life that is far from the end of your story, but is a new story that will lead to purpose and significance.
A crucible is a cauldron where metals are thrown together and heated to very high temperatures. The metals combine to form an alloy, something that is different than it was before. A crucible experience is one that Typically, when we face an obstacle, especially a major obstacle, we tend to think, at least in the moment, this is the end. Especially if it is a serious health diagnosis, the loss of a loved one, or losing your job or the company you started. That is normal. Our first reaction is almost never, “Oh joy! An obstacle! I am sure this will be a great learning experience. I can’t wait to see what unfolds.”
Significant obstacles set you back. They are often crushing. If it is an adverse health diagnosis, you might be thinking of the shortness of life, or perhaps the pain of treatment and the effect it will have on those you love. If it is getting fired, you might be angry at those who fired you and/or mad at yourself for not doing better. Major obstacles can lead to a range of emotions: anger, depression, self-doubt, fear, immobilization. Just thinking about next steps can seem impossible. You can’t get your head and emotions out of the bottom of the dark valley you are in.
So how do you get beyond obstacles? Can you reframe obstacles as opportunities, and how do you do this?
Reflect
The first step is to reflect on what happened and why. In an adverse health diagnosis for instance, often it is not your fault; it can be because of genetics or what you feel is just bad luck. Perhaps you smoked many packs of cigarettes a day or led an unhealthy lifestyle. You must come to terms with what has happened. Forgive yourself if part of the situation was your fault; or try not be angry at the world or God, depending on how you view things.
If part of it is your fault and it affects other people, perhaps there are words of contrition that need to be said; and some relational healing may be needed.
What are the lessons you may need to learn from this situation? In a business setting, getting fired, or in my case losing a business, should make you want to consider what happened and why. Did you make some mistakes? Were you in the wrong position given your gifts? That would be yes to both of those questions for me.
Glenn Williams is a great example of someone who stopped and reflected after leaving a high profile leadership position in a major nonprofit. He could have instantly leapt into another corporate-type job. After listening to some good counsel, he wisely did not. For more on Glenn’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Filmmaker and actor Robert Krantz also did some deep reflection after twin crucibles – one professional, one personal – hit him hard in the early 2000s. After the movie he sunk all his money and talent into failed due to circumstances largely beyond his control, his wife received a health diagnosis that threatened the lives of their unborn triplet sons. Krantz took a long look at what was really important in his life, and dedicated himself to his family rather than his career until his sons were old enough … and he pursued his professional calling with renewed passion. For more on Robert’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Reframe
Probably the biggest step forward after reflecting and forgiving yourself or others for what happened, is to reframe how this obstacle can be used as an opportunity.
Reframing an obstacle as an opportunity might seem impossible, but it is possible. People who have gone through great pain and suffering, have endured huge setbacks, typically have in common the desire, indeed the drive, to use that setback to help others.
David Charbonnet, a Navy SEAL, used the crushing setback of a parachuting accident that ended up with him being paraplegic, to head a veterans clinic designed to give veterans as much mobility as possible after enduring physical trauma like he did. He transformed a tragic thing that happened to him into an opportunity to do wonderful things for others. For more on David’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Esther Fleece Allen used her setback of being abandoned and abused to become a writer and speaker dedicated to helping others overcome tragedy and find a new sense of purpose. What had felt like lost years growing up, she saw as learning years as she matured. For more on Esther’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
When your life is dedicated to serving others, there is tremendous healing. Your life has a sense of purpose, a sense of significance. Getting your mind and emotions off your own problems and challenges and getting them focused on others and how to help them is the key. It also importantly brings purpose to your pain. You might not like what happened to you and wish it hadn’t happened, but using your pain to help others does help.
Cast a Vision
Finally, as you reflect on your desire to serve others, to use your pain for a purpose, might there be a vision here that needs to be explored? Talk to friends and family and advisers. Tell them you want to find a purpose to the pain and let them know some of the people you are trying to help. Together you might be able to take what you are already doing to help people to a whole other level; and indeed, a whole other level of giving purpose to your pain.
Jim Daly, president of the global family-help organization Focus on the Family, began life as a boy in desperate need of family help. He was abandoned by his alcoholic father, his mother died of cancer and his stepdad skipped out on the family the day of her funeral: all before Jim was 10. Jim says, “Oftentimes, our pain bears our passion” – and that’s just what it did for him as he embarked on his ministry career. For more on Jim’s story, here is the link to our BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Ed Kressy, at the lowest point of his life after drugs and substance abuse left him destitute and homeless, began helping people through community groups, the local police in San Francisco, and the FBI. Helping others was the key to his path back. You can hear Ed’s story in an upcoming BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE podcast.
Obstacles, especially devastating setbacks, can be crushing. They can feel impossible to overcome, and impossible to bounce back from. But if you reflect on what happened and why, consider how your pain can be for a purpose, and think how that can lead to a vision to serve others; you can indeed get past a crushing setback. You can see your obstacle as an opportunity to make a difference in the world by serving others.
Reflection
Why did your devastating setback happen and what can you learn from it?
How can your pain be used for a purpose, that in some way can help others?
What vision do you have that would use your pain to serve others?
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Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Jim Daly was abandoned by his alcoholic father at 5, lost his mother to cancer four years later and had no one to turn to but his four older siblings when their stepfather emptied the family home and left them to fend for themselves on the day they buried their Mom. Before he had turned 10, he was living with a dysfunctional foster family and thinking it was all just part of the “normal” life all kids lived. But buoyed by a hopeful spirit, he embraced the structure his teenage years brought at school and through sports — and gradually charted a course for the kind of life he once never dreamed possible. Today, fifteen years into his role as president of the international nonprofit Focus on the Family, he surprises the press by meeting with ideological opponents and continues to oversee innovative programs that in just the last year have helped 780,000 couples build stronger marriages and 950,000 moms and dads raise happier, more resilient children. Daly talks with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax about why a life of significance has nothing to do with job titles and how all that childhood pain now fuels his ministry passions and accomplishments.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Gary S:
Hey, everybody, welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Gary Schneeberger, the cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. And our podcast is focused on crucible moments, those experiences in life that can be extraordinarily difficult, very painful, can change the trajectory of our lives. But we talk about them in the context of this podcast, not to camp out on them, not to dwell on them in a negative way, not to sort of wallow in them, but to use them as jumping off points to lead a life of significance. And with me, as always, is the architect of Crucible Leadership and the host of the show, Warwick Fairfax.
Warwick F:
Hey, Gary.
Gary S:
We got a good one today and I know this because I’m about to read his bio, but I know this because one thing not in his official bio is that I called him boss for about 10 years and I still call him friend. So that’s something that’s not in the official bio, but this is how I know it’s going to be a good show. So, our guest today is Jim Daly. Jim Daly is president of Focus on the Family and host of its daily radio broadcast heard by more than 6.6 million listeners a week on more than 1000 radio stations across the US.
Gary S:
In March of 2019, Jim celebrated, hard to believe, his 30th anniversary with Focus on the Family. Jim’s personal journey from orphan to head of an international Christian organization dedicated to helping families thrive is we’ll discover a powerful story. Abandoned by his alcoholic father at age five, he lost his mother to cancer four years later, a wound deepened when his grieving stepfather emptied the family home and left Jim, the youngest of five children and his siblings to fend for themselves after their mother’s funeral. Several tough years followed, including time in foster care, before Jim became a Christian in high school and found meaning, purpose and a sense of belonging.
Gary S:
Jim was named president of Focus on the Family in 2005. Under his leadership, the organization has taken on a role nationally in encouraging and helping facilitate foster care adoptions, earning recognition from the White House and Congress for its efforts. The ministry also has reinvigorated its traditional focus on helping couples build strong marriages and raise healthy and resilient kids. I love this part, in just the last 12 months with the help of Focus on the Family, research indicates that 780,000 couples have built stronger marriages, and 950,000 moms and dads build stronger, healthier and more God-honoring families.
Gary S:
Jim has been married to his lovely wife, Jean, since 1986. They have two sons and reside in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Warwick, take it away.
Warwick F:
Wow. Well, Jim, it’s just such an honor to have you. I mean, Focus on the Family, as you know, I grew up in Australia and listened to that in Australia and Dr. Dobson, and years ago and the work that your organization does in helping families, especially in the world we live in, which is so many single parent families. It’s just tough out there. Your organization’s a beacon of light, just helping families and has done for decades. So, love to hear more about that just in a bit.
Warwick F:
With crucible leadership, we love hearing people’s stories of adversity. Clearly just with your bio, you grew up in some pretty difficult challenges. So, just talk a bit about, I know we heard in the bio, but how you grew up and just some of those pretty tough challenges. You had it about as rough as anybody growing up.
Jim D:
The great thing about being a child you don’t know any better. Fundamentally, you think everybody’s in the same boat. That’s kind of the attitude I had. I was sure that others had it worse off than I had it. And I don’t know where I found that little sliver of wisdom to figure that out. But at least I was eating and I was sleeping in a warm place. And it’s just so funny when you’re a kid, you think, okay, that’s good enough, I can handle the rest on my own. It was an amazing thing.
Jim D:
I think the other key thing that I’ve come to learn is how much resiliency is in a child’s heart. Being in a marriage and parenting organization, I think from a perspective of faith, which is where I come from, it’s a great design that God put that kind of resiliencies in children’s hearts because parents let kids down all the time for all variety of reasons. We don’t come with a perfect parenting approach. And I think, even like the love I had for my alcoholic father was deep even though he was a disappointment as a dad, but I still loved him, despite all those things. And all the promises he made but never kept.
Jim D:
So, for me, it was just part of my story, it was the short straw. It’s one of the hardest questions I get asked when I’m speaking is how did you get keep your joy as a child. Again, my faith is the only thing that explains that, that I believed that I was made for a purpose and that God was with me even in my valleys. I had a lot of them.
Warwick F:
So your father abandoned you first, it was at age five or?
Jim D:
I was the youngest of five kids. I was six years from my closest sibling, so I was the accident, the oops baby. They were all one year apart, so they ran kind of as a pack in high school, they were almost all in high school at the same time. And then I was probably starting kindergarten at that time. I was really distant from them in every way, emotionally, age, everything. And then when my mom got cancer, she died of colon cancer, they kind of kept it from me because nobody felt like a child can handle it. So, one piece of advice I have for people is if you’re going through difficulty as a parent, let your kids in on it in an age-appropriate way.
Jim D:
For me I had to go from having a normal dysfunctional family to all of a sudden learning one Saturday morning that my mom had died the night before. And it wasn’t expected, I wasn’t anticipating it, I couldn’t read the signs and put it all together. So, it was a jolt to me to learn that the person who was the most loving kind person in my life all of a sudden was gone. I didn’t even have a chance to say goodbye to her.
Warwick F:
I understand that your stepfather left pretty soon after that.
Jim D:
Well, it was crazy. Hank, I called him Hank the Tank, he was a former military drill sergeant, and he fit the stereotype. He loved my mom, and as I got older, I had better appreciation for that than I did at the moment. He didn’t like the kids. He even called us baggage at one point. We knew that we were not something that he cared for but he loved my mom enough. And I think ironically, my mom needed that kind of support as she was dying. They were only married a year and a half. But it was the day of her funeral we came back, she accepted Christ the day before she died again as a spiritual element here. It was phenomenal. Her funeral was amazing. The clouds made like a staircase leading up into the sky and my oldest brother Mike, that was the beginning of a spiritual journey for him.
Jim D:
But we got back to the house after the funeral and everything was gone, all of our furniture, and it was our furniture, not Hank’s furniture. But he had sold it. We had little boxes in the living room of our stuff, my handful of toys and my clothes were in one box and the other sibling stuff was in a box of their own. And Hank came out of the back bedroom with his luggage packed and he had two big suitcases in each fist. And he just said, “you know, I can’t take the pressure of raising your kids so I’m gone.” And we were like, well, what do we do? And we went into foster care.
Warwick F:
And how old were you at the time when your step dad left?
Jim D:
I was nine years old, nine years old.
Warwick F:
At that point, obviously, you’ve lost both parents, a step father’s just walked out. It’s probably a dumb question, but where were you at that point just emotionally and everything? Were you like, the world is over and like, if there’s a God, how can this possibly happen? What’s the deal here?
Jim D:
I think it was a bunch of emotions. I mean, the one was abandonment, but I wasn’t mad at my mom. I knew she couldn’t control a disease. I was cognizant enough to understand that. But at the same time, I felt like everybody was walking out on me. In Hank’s case, literally. And so, I think it was a lot of despair and loneliness. That’s the best way I could describe it. Yet there was a normalcy to everything else. School, friends. It’s the strangest status to be in that moment. I remember the fourth grade class at Bixby Elementary, they sent me a handmade card, a big card with everybody’s note in there. We’re sorry, Jim, we hope you have a good life.
Jim D:
And then of course, the funeral was on a Saturday, and by Monday, I was moving into foster care 160 miles away. Little town called Morongo valley with this family that my brother knew one of their sons, Paul, and ironically, their last name, we got to find God’s sense of humor in all this, but it was the Real family. They were like the most unreal family. And I always say the precursor is they did provide for us. They gave us shelter, which was nice. If we were dysfunctional, they were very dysfunctional and that was unfortunate. They had four sons all in a state of disarray.
Warwick F:
So it sounds like it didn’t really get a whole lot better with foster care. You had a roof over your head but it wasn’t like you had this ideal picture perfect family.
Jim D:
I can remember walking, it was Mr. Todd, my fourth grade, I was ending my fourth grade year. My mom died in March, and so April, May. And I remember just walking out of his class. During instruction, he’d be up there talking about conjugating verbs or something, they were in a different place, educationally, they were covering different material than I was at Bixby Elementary. And I just remember feeling like I can’t do this, I’m sad, I’m lonely. And I would literally just walk out of his class and sit on a sand hill and cry at Morongo Elementary School. A little nurse would come out, Nurse Bandy, and she’d put her arm around me and say, “You’re going to be okay, Jimmy. Things are going to be okay.”
Jim D:
And I would think to myself as a nine year old boy, she doesn’t know what I’m walking back into. I get on that bus and I go back to the Real family, and hunker down and try to hide basically emotionally, physically because I just didn’t want to engage them. They were just not healthy people.
Jim D:
And so, I ended up living there for a year and then my bio dad found me. My biological father, my alcoholic father, he learned that my mom had died, he didn’t know what happened to us. He had been trying to track us down. It kind of took him that year to find us through social services. He came out to visit at the Reals. It was at about probably the one year point. And he came out and I kind of just clung to his leg like a kid does. As he walked around all day, I just held on to him. And at the end of the day, being at the Reals, he said, “Would you want to move back in with me?”
Jim D:
And it was kind of that, for those people who are watching that maybe grew up in an alcoholic home, it was kind of the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde response, which was yeah, yes. And then quietly I was thinking, which dad am I going to get. But it had to be far better than this. And that’s that resiliency of a child’s heart I was talking about. I was all in. Dad, I don’t mind if you’re still drinking, I just got to get out of this place. I didn’t say it but it’s what I was thinking. I moved back in.
Warwick F:
With a few years with your dad or?
Jim D:
Actually only one year. Moved in for a year. We ended up having a family gathering because my sister closest to age in me was now turning 18 and she was going to be moving out. And the siblings didn’t think I should remain with my dad who was still struggling, not as bad, but there were episodes where he would binge drink and be passed out. I would step in to make sure everything got done. Yeah, at the end of that year, my family said, we need to get together, you’ve got to tell dad because he’s not going to understand it from us. I think I’m 11 years old at this point.
Warwick F:
Oh my gosh.
Jim D:
I remember having the family conference and I remember looking at my dad, saying, “I don’t think I should live with you anymore.” I’m looking this way because that’s where he was sitting, at the moment, it was off to my 11 o’clock. And I remember looking at him and just saying, “Dad, I don’t think I should live with you.” And he looked at me and he said, “Well, why not?” And nobody had prepped me for that question which would have been very helpful as an 11 year old. But I just looked at him after a moment, which felt like eternity and I sat there going, how do I answer this, how do I answer this. And I’m afraid, I’m scared that I’m not going to answer correctly, I’m going to wound him. All those emotions are running through my heart.
Jim D:
And I just looked at him and this is what came to my mind, and I looked at him, I said, “Because of how you treated mom, I don’t think I can live with you by myself.” Imagine your 11 year old saying that. To his credit, he stood up, walked across the room to me, he hugged me, which was very much like my father. Some of the fondest memories were him just putting his hand through my hair and saying, I love you. And he came over and he hugged me. And he said, “I understand that I wasn’t a good husband, I’m not a good father.” And he walked out of the room out of the house, basically moved to Reno, Nevada. That was the last time I saw him. He ended up dying within about four months of exposure. He was drunk and went into an abandoned building in the winter and froze to death. And that was hard.
Warwick F:
That was just an amazing, it’s amazing you had the courage to say that. And he obviously heard that at least at some level. So that’s an incredibly tough upbringing. How did you get beyond that? Where you are now. If you looked at who you were there at 11, and somebody said, you know, he’s got a head up a massive nonprofit, you would have said, probably not, not seeing it. How did you get beyond such terrible circumstances?
Jim D:
The one thing that I always had, it was a strange thing, it was just this hope, I always had hope. You can knock me down but I always got up. There’s always tomorrow, there’s always something better around the corner. I just had that attitude in my heart. When I was that five year old and my dad left. Going back to that five year old state, I remember my dad saying to me, he wasn’t living with us, and this is something in my own parenting that I really remembered and tried never to do, which is to break a promise. And the reason was that when I was five, or seven, I was having my seventh birthday, and my dad, I had seen him briefly for a moment, he said, “Hey, I’m going to bring you a baseball mitt for your seventh birthday,” which was only about a week or two away.
Jim D:
I remember on that day, my birthday, a friend of mine was over at our house spending time with me. And I’d run to the curb every 15 minutes and look up and down the street looking for my dad. And he never came. I remember Ricky, my friend at the end of the day, it was probably like 6:37, the evening was there, the sun’s going down and it was our last trek to the curb to look for my dad. And I remember him just kind of hitting me gently in the shoulder saying, “Hey, it’s okay. It’s okay.” And he went home and I remember walking back into my house thinking that it’s not okay. And it was that great lesson for me with my own boys that are now 19 and 17, one thing I always tried to do is to make very few promises. And then when I had made a promise to always keep it because of the pain it caused me, my dad let me down, that I wasn’t worth it, that he couldn’t keep his word. Even if he didn’t bring the mitt, I could care less. I just wanted to see if he would show up on my birthday. Man, absolutely.
Jim D:
So then, what did I learn and where did I go from there? I moved in with my brother who was 19 married to his 16 year old girlfriend and that had its own challenges. I went to junior high and high school living with my brother, who at that time went through two wives. And we lived as bachelors for a period of time during that. I remember playing football, varsity football at the high school. I’d say, “I’m going to be out after the game tonight going to party.” He’d say, “Okay, that’s no problem.” I’d say, “what time you want me to come home?” He’d say, “two, three in the morning should work.” And I literally would walk out thinking I’ll try to stay out that late. It became a challenge for me, I could stay out till three in the morning. That’s the kind of parental leadership I had.
Warwick F:
Kind of non-existent. But I-
Jim D:
You know, go ahead.
Warwick F:
I was going to say, you said you had hope, but there must have been something that led you to follow a different path and your dad stepped out or even some of your siblings. What led you to have a path that was a bit more constructive in life than what you’d grown up with?
Jim D:
One of the things for me, structure became important and I found structure in school and in sports. So I played sports, I played football, basketball, baseball through the school year. I was good enough, I made the teams, I started, and it was all fun. It kept me really busy in every way. I think with my siblings, I don’t share this very often, but living with my brother, watching him make the choices that he made in a weird way, it opened a window of wisdom to me because I can remember, why would he go out with that woman? Can’t he see that she’s no good. And then they’d be married for eight, nine months and then divorced. And it upset me. I think in some ways, I had resentment toward him, that he didn’t have better decision making ability. But it also informed me in an indirect way about making better choices. And so I think that really helped me.
Jim D:
And then, when I was 15, I had a football coach, Paul Morrow, who just died last year, I was at his funeral, I spoke at his funeral because we got him his rookie year out of Cal State Long Beach. And he was gung ho, and he just really kind of the typical thing, when he saw me kind of lagging on the football field, he’d grab my face mask and kind of jerked me around. “If you’re going to lead this team then you must finish the wind sprints first.” Probably illegal today, but it got my attention. This was like, the first time in my life I had a man calling me out to be something more than a wounded boy.
Jim D:
And I responded, thankfully. I didn’t resent it. In fact, I loved it. And the harder he was on me to perform in the football sense, the more I responded. And then one day he said, “Hey, I’d like to go to a Fellowship of Christian Athletes camp at Point Loma. I’ll pay the money for you to go but we’re going down.” Probably about eight of us from that football team went, there’s probably 40 guys at this camp. And then we had a professional, actually a quarterback from San Diego Chargers came down and he said, “Have men let you down? Has your stepfather let you down?” I was like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to me. Thought he was going to say, Has Mr. Real let you down. But it was that close to my heart and it just compelled me and I became a Christian. And believe me, I wobbled. I was 15 but I still was doing things I shouldn’t do up until about 22, really. I had this battle going on in my heart up until 22.
Jim D:
And then at 22, ironically, I went to college, paid my way through college. I worked. I ended up going to the University of Waseda in Japan on overseas study program. And again, I think just all of that structure where I could excel and succeed, I leaned into that. So I didn’t do drugs, I didn’t fall in that direction, which I easily could have. I think from my perspective, it was God’s hand, it was just the Lord saying, it’s a better way, let me show you a better way. It’s the book of Proverbs.
Warwick F:
I think there are some really important insights, just the power of both positive role models in your coach but negative role models as listeners will know from my story growing up in a very wealthy family media business in Australia. It was founded by a strong believer but at the time I grew up, there was a lot of power of money, pride, arrogance, some other family members who were just sort of about the money and didn’t work that hard.
Warwick F:
And yeah, so for me, I can relate at one level as that sort of negative role model was like that’s not going to be me. I’m going to work hard, I’m not going to be some arrogant Fairfax, which in Sydney, meant a lot. Positive role models, I don’t know, I probably had some faith was certainly a cornerstone. But it is amazing, the power of a negative role model to say, I’m not going to be that person, I’m going to be different. You make a choice. Maybe it’s, obviously, from our perspective, it’s God’s hand putting people in your life. And for me, I came to faith in Christ at an evangelical Anglican Church at Oxford. He has his hand on each of us.
Warwick F:
So it sounds like you chose a different track. You didn’t go obviously from college right to Focus. You had some other things that you were doing. When you were in college, did you say gosh, I want to be a missionary or?
Jim D:
Are you kidding me? When I was in college it was how do I make money because money is what you live on. There was a point in college, this is one of the saddest, probably, I was a sophomore, I was at Cal State San Bernardino. I got in at UC San Diego and a few other schools in California, but I decided I wanted to be close to my brother. I mean, again, just that weird attachment probably like PTSD. I thought, okay, he might need my help or I might need his help so I’ll stay close. So I turned down UC San Diego, which would have been great. Went to Cal State San Bernardino. Probably told you more about my SAT score than I want to share.
Jim D:
When I was there as a sophomore, I remember there was one point I really wasn’t connected with my siblings, they were all struggling in their own way, they were living their own lives. They were older than me. Some were married, some were having children, some were struggling with other issues. But I just wasn’t connected, I wasn’t talking to them on the phone. They didn’t know what my situation was. I remember Christmas was coming my sophomore year at university. I had nowhere to go. I mean, literally, I had nowhere to go. So I had to go to the school and petition that I could live in the dorms for that three weeks that we were going to be out.
Jim D:
And I remember them saying, there’s not going to be any electricity on. You can stay there and we’ll make an exception, but you literally outside of the security team covering this 400 acre campus, you’re going to be the only person here. I was like, I’ll do it, I have no choice. That was a lonely experience being on this sprawling campus and going back to these seven or eight dorms with literally no human being there. I’m the only car in the parking lot. And with no electricity. I had a candle, a flashlight. I was very lonely. Again, it was this feelings as a nine year old boy losing my mom. That was kind of the theme through all those years was just this desperate loneliness. I’m so thankful to say today I don’t have that feeling any longer.
Gary S:
I know that we’re going to turn a little bit here in a bit and talk about the life of significance, Jim, that you’ve built. But I want the listeners to really focus on something extremely important about what we’ve heard, not even what we’ve been talking about. Jim has described some truly traumatic, painful experiences in his life. And have you heard listener, the joy in his voice, the joy in his heart? It is possible to come out on the other side. If you’re going through a crucible experience right now, remember this conversation because I know Jim, I know what he’s been through.
Gary S:
But just listening to him, he’s not making light of the situations that happened to him, but he’s got joy because he found opportunities, as he said, he looked for hope, he always had hope. He always tried to find hope in the most, what some people would see as hopeless situations. That is an important thing for listeners who are going through their own crucibles to remember. You can have joy, which isn’t circumstantial, that’s internal. You can have joy even in circumstances that are terribly, terribly difficult.
Jim D:
So true, so true. And I think that’s the core again, with my Christian faith, it informs me. There’s a wonderful verse in the Bible that says he is close to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit. In many ways, that’s my life verse. I think the differences, I have friends that have had only mountaintop experiences, kind of what you were describing, your family experience. Money brings a lot of ease to life. You can pay for things like education, you can go to the best colleges and all those things. If you have a golden touch and you’re capable, you can write bestselling books, you can start organizations, you can do a lot of good things.
Jim D:
But I’m telling you, your character is formed in the valley. And some of the weakest people that I’ve encountered are people that have never had valley experiences.
Warwick F:
And that’s something that’s hard for people understand, there is blessings in setback. My setback is very different. For me, it was the $2 billion takeover to try to resurrect the company in the image of the founder. And I was young, naive, idealistic, a person of faith. That ended, and so I was responsible for ending 150 year old family business. I still have a Wikipedia entry and it’s not particularly favorable. Young hot-headed kid who could have had it all, naive, made stupid decision and lost at all. If you google me, that’s what it is. You obviously don’t want to be defined by Google or Wikipedia, at least in my case. It gives you a sense of humility, it makes you less prone to judge other people when you’ve made your own.
Warwick F:
I didn’t deliberately try to hurt anybody but I just made a lot of dumb mistakes. Yeah, it does test your character. So, obviously, you live an incredible life of significance. So you’re in college, don’t really have a community. How did you get to a point where you feel like you are serving other people, serving a higher purpose, serving what God called you to? How did life change from college?
Jim D:
Again, I did a business degree. I thought the best thing I could do, one, to take care of myself and my hopefully future family is I have to do well, I have to earn money. So I went to work, I worked for International Paper, I worked in the paper industry for about seven years. And again, I found a great mentor in that environment too, Jeff Eaves who was a tremendous friend, much like coach Paul Morrow, he kind of picked up where Paul Morrow left off and kind of hewned me in a great way and develop even my moral principles. He was not a Christian but he was a very good guy.
Jim D:
I evolved into that, I ended up going on a plant tour. I was working out of college, I worked for a Christian organization briefly and I ended up on a plant tour at the International Paper. And I ended up accepting a job offer they made me about a week later. They called and said, “You impressed us on that plant tour and we’d like to hire you.” So I did. And so I went seven years in that industry. And then I got a call from a friend. And one of the things that’s so important, I think, again, from the Christian perspective, I was just willing to get up every day and do the best I could do, to work as hard as I could work that day. And then, I’m going to trust God for the rest.
Jim D:
I mean, this thing really unfolded in such a miraculous way. So I had a friend that I met at Campus Crusade, that organization I worked for briefly, Ron Wilson, who’s still here at Focus on the Family. And I called him because there was a gentleman that was a customer of mine and I wanted to introduce him to other Christians. I just felt that, his son worked at Campus Crusade, ironically. I was up in the Bay Area, but I wanted this man to be surrounded by people that knew God and I thought he had a heart for those things and was open.
Jim D:
So I ended up calling Ron. And at the end of the conversation, he said, “Have you ever thought about working in nonprofit again?” I said, “Not really because I want to eat.” That’s a good orphan kid response, I want to eat. I’ve made up for it, obviously. But the point of it is, he said, “There’s a position coming open at Focus on the Family. I’d love to call you. Should be two or three weeks.” I said, “Okay, give me a call, I’ll take a look at it.” And 10 months went by. And I remember just praying, saying, God, I don’t want to push a door open, and so I’m not going to call Ron back. If you want to make it happen, I’ll just sit patiently.
Jim D:
Well, these 10 months go by. Wednesday night, I go out to dinner with the plant manager at IP in San Francisco. And he says, “Hey, we’re going to give you a promotion.” I went, “Wow, that’s great.” And here’s what it is. And I thought to myself, this is why the other thing didn’t open up. I get home and my wife Jean says, “Hey, there’s a message on the machine, I didn’t really listen to it.” Well, that was Ron calling me back 10 months later on the very night I got the promotion offer, saying, “Hey, we got the position.” So I called Ron back the next day on Thursday. I flew down with Jean on Friday to interview with Dr. Dobson, everybody at Focus, Saturday, they made a job offer. And I think I turned down 150,000 for 32,000. I remember my dear, amazing wife, I said, “What do you think we should do?” And she said, “I trust whatever you’d like to do, I believe God will be with you.” Isn’t that awesome?
Warwick F:
What led you to make that choice because given the way you grew up with nothing, turning down that much money, it’s not like you didn’t understand the consequences.
Jim D:
Absolutely. But I think the thing is, to your point earlier, oftentimes, our pain bears our passion. And that’s the case for me. I thought of those kids that could be helped if I went to Focus on the Family. What an amazing thing as an orphan kid, I could maybe help other children not suffer the things that I suffered through divorce, through addiction, etc. And that was just always in the back of my mind, what little role could I play in this organization. And to your point earlier, little did I know, 30 years later after being here at Focus that I would become president at Focus on the Family. That’s still a bizarre.
Warwick F:
Well, it is. I don’t know. I mean, for me as I tell my story and try to help others, there is a little bit of a healing balm when you can use your pain to help others. Obviously, for me, it’s my faith in Christ and the fact that he loves me unconditionally was the cornerstone of my recovery and having a wife like you who loves me unconditionally. I have three kids, two boys and a girl. That’s all part of a wonderful plan. My dad was married three times, my mother twice, I was from the last marriage of each. I tell them, you have no idea how lucky you are. To be married 30 years and they have a wonderful mother. I mean, they’re just clueless as to how blessed. I’m sure you probably with your two boys. Maybe you don’t tell them that, maybe you do.
Jim D:
No, I do.
Warwick F:
You don’t realize there are alternatives. But did you feel like as you’re working with Focus that there was a healing element as you were able to use your pain to help others in some fashion?
Jim D:
I think there was. Did I recognize it? Probably not like I should have. I think, again, it’s funny, I’ve always had this mentality of waking up each day and just putting my left foot in front of my right foot. It’s just been one of those things. It’s kind of like, I can remember, to give you an area where I fell short. I remember 15, 16 years ago, my wife’s brother committed suicide. Life’s experiences come to the surface in these moments. I can remember my wife really struggling, obviously, with the fact that her brother had died. And much to my discredit, I mean, my orphan survivor mentality was to try to encourage her by saying, “You know what, we got to pick ourselves up by our bootstraps. We got to get moving. We’ve got to overcome this.” I thought that was a positive thing to say.
Jim D:
And I remember she looked at me and said, “Jim, not all of us can do that. You can but I can’t. I’ve got to grieve.” Man, it put me right back on my heels because I, then I’m going, okay, have I grieved properly? And I don’t think I ever had really. I just got up every morning and started going. And I don’t think I ever stopped-
Warwick F:
That’s a challenge. You have to keep moving on but certainly one of the things I found is unless you can grieve and deal with some of the pain and the past and the anger and disappointment, yeah, it stops you from fully moving on. It’s a process. It takes a while.
Warwick F:
So, just this last couple minutes here. You’ve been president of Focus for quite a number of years now. Everybody thinks Dr. Dobson but you’ve been president-
Jim D:
15.
Warwick F:
So, it’s always challenging, just looking at it more broadly when you inherit the mantle from a beloved founder. Inevitably, every new leader wants to put their own stamp or they might feel called to move things in a different direction. Obviously, Focus is an organization that people know something about. From what I’ve read, I think you, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but you wanted to sort of maybe return it to its roots or refocus its mission. I don’t know how you would describe it. Does that make sense? I’m trying to think of the right diplomatic way to put that.
Jim D:
It comes down to a meeting I had with Dr. Dobson right toward the end of his time in 2010. He stepped out of February 2010. But I can remember probably around December, January, right before he stepped out, he asked me to do an audit on the broadcast just to take a measure of the content that we had done in the previous three years. I was kind of eager to do that because I thought I knew how it would turn out, and it turned out the direction I thought it would but even more intensely.
Jim D:
And what happened is we had only had one new marriage program recorded in that three year period. So we did re-airs but we weren’t recording new programming. For three years, only one new marriage program. We had about 26 parenting programs that were new in that three year period, but we had 128 policy programs. And that’s where his interests lied. It was in this idea, understandably, that if I work hard in that government area, we can get some things corrected. And he had said to me one day, “I’ve kind of said all I could say about marriage and parenting, and that’s why my energy is directed here.” So I get it. As a 70 something year old man, I think he was turning to the handles that he felt he could make some change.
Jim D:
Yet at the same time, our audience is 68% females, a lot of moms who were saying, how do I keep my marriage together? How do I raise children that honor God and can succeed? So I really wanted us to get back to those basics which now we’re at 80% programming on marriage and parenting, proud to say.
Warwick F:
And again, another lesson for leaders, I’m reminded of a book, Mission Drift, that you’re probably familiar with.
Jim D:
Exactly right.
Warwick F:
And it doesn’t mean to say other missions are wrong, but Focus was founded to help families. And there’s a huge need for that, you can get into other areas that can be more controversial. There’s absolutely a place for that. But the question is is that Focus’ role versus some other organization because if you start trying to do everything, you tend to do nothing particularly well. And that’s not a right or wrong thing, it’s just a matter of a choice. And you obviously, with your background, had a huge passion for the family, huge need. It shows a lot of courage to say, I respect and revere the founder, but with all due respect, I just feel like we need to focus on the family, so to speak, that is the name of the organization, right?
Jim D:
So true. It was so hard in that moment because Dr. Dobson like Chuck Colson or Billy Graham, he’s an iconic figure, beloved, and I got that. It’s interesting, when you’re doing a transition like that, I remember the first question I received and Gary was nearby as our VP of media at the time. And the first question, I think it was an AP reporter when the transition had been formally announced, we did the invocation. And then Dr. Dobson and I went to a media moment, and the reporter said, “How are you going to fill his shoes?” And I remember just thinking for a minute, and I just quickly responded, “I can’t, I can’t fill his shoes. I got to get my own pair of shoes.” And that’s true.
Jim D:
And I think for those who are taking over, particularly from a founder, you’re going to have some turbulence, because you cannot do it the same way. And anything you can convey to that founder to say, I love you, I respect you, but I can’t think like you always. Some things like dress code or some of the other things, we’re going to do it differently. And I remember one of the best questions I asked, I felt Dr. Dobson, I said, you know, he said, “Just stay true to the principles.” And I think wisely I said, “Well, in your mind, what’s a principle?” And that was the question because he even responded in the context of the dress code is principle. Everything in the orbit of Focus was principle. And it can’t be, being pro-life, being pro marriage, being pro family, those are the core principles.
Warwick F:
One of the things I really admire is, obviously I understand the organization’s pro-life, pro-family, pro traditional marriage. But yet from what I’ve read is you’ve tried to meet with people who have different viewpoints. Doesn’t mean that you agree but in our divided political culture people just hurl insults at each other, which I personally don’t think helps. You can disagree with somebody strongly without calling them names. Talk a bit about that because that seemed, it’s different than some, like you disagree with them but you’re willing to meet and dialogue. That’s pretty impressive.
Jim D:
Absolutely. Actually, it should be the standard way that Christians go about living their lives. But unfortunately, you’re right, we get caught up into the human side of debates and conflict, and we lean into our human nature rather than God’s spiritual nature. And it’s hard. I mean, because it goes against the grain. But that’s been one of the things to reach out to the LGBTQ community, to reach out to the abortion community, to develop friendships so that we can have dialogue.
Jim D:
The one thing that, well, there’s many things that I’ve learned in that context, but a couple, one, for us, as Christians, if you’re calling yourself a Christian, then there’s two great commandments that God gives us and that’s to love him with all of our heart, soul and mind, and then to love our neighbor as ourself. The great thing is, especially that I’ve recognized in the LGBTQ community, those friendships that I reached out to, they responded very beautifully. And I can tell you, those friendships are genuine, they’re deep and they’re real, and they go on today. Things are changing.
Jim D:
When you sincerely show love and respect for another person, I think God has wired us in such a way that our hearts crack open to that person. We can’t resist that kind of love. And that’s why I think he said, love your neighbor. And when you do that, it’s amazing the connection that you’ll find. You don’t have to agree on everything but you can love your neighbor. God gives us that capacity, and that’s a good place to start.
Warwick F:
And it breaks down the barrier of people thinking that Christians are bigoted, judgemental, holier than thou, hypocrites, that a lot of other people think. I mean, that’s not helpful to the cause of Christ or the cause of Jesus if that’s what people think. But you loving other people, being clear about your position, it’s like, gosh, this Jim guy, he seemed like a decent human being. Who knew?
Jim D:
I appreciate that. One of the best compliments I received from one of these people that I reached out to, he’s the kind of guy I’d like to go have a beer with. I thought to myself, that’s probably something they may have said of the Lord. He hung out with that crowd. He seemed to be comfortable with them. When you said that, I mean, here’s a point for the Christian community listening, if the fruit of the Spirit is not present in our lives, there’s a problem because the Lord said, they’re going to know you and they’ll know me through the fruit, my fruit that they see in you.
Jim D:
So if you don’t have it, I would go back around and ask the Lord to make sure that his fruit, and this is love, joy, goodness, kindness, mercy, self-control, patience. If you don’t possess those things, it’s not a restaurant menu that you get to choose from. These things should be in your life and growing as a Christian. We can’t expect the world to operate from those principles.
Jim D:
Funny story quickly. I had lunch with David Horowitz, the former communist, he wrote a book called, How the Left is Trying to Kill Christianity, something like that. We’re at lunch and he goes, “Jim, Jim, don’t you realize that you Christians you’re in an alley fight and the other side has switchblades.” I said, “David, we’re not that stupid. We know they’re armed. The problem is we have to bring into the alley fight love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, mercy. Not the best implements in an alley fight, but they are God’s tools.”
Warwick F:
And think of Jesus, he’s in the garden, and Peter’s trying to get out the sword. And what does Jesus say? Okay, let’s go for it. No. Put down your sword, that’s not the way of Jesus.
Gary S:
In the time that we have left, Jim, I want to make sure that you get a chance to talk about this, talk about a life of significance. One of the things that Focus on the Family’s doing this summer, Alive 2020. Tell our listeners a little bit about what that is just so they …
Jim D:
Again, it’s something thankfully Focus has always been doing and that’s to help in the pro-life movement. And we started probably 15 years ago now, maybe a little longer, something called Option Ultrasound. And that was to place ultrasound machines in pregnancy resource clinics around the country. There’s a lot to that. We had to get them medically ready, we had to work with them, etc. But we’ve had over 800 machines placed in these locations, which has resulted in about I think now we’re at 459,000 babies saved. So these are women that have walked into the clinic, basically said, I’m abortion-minded, they see the ultrasound of their baby, they walk out saying, I’m going to keep the baby or let the baby be adopted. So that’s a great victory for what we believe.
Jim D:
So in New York, New York had gone so liberal on these laws and Governor Cuomo had signed into law basically that an abortion was doable up until the birth canal. And boy, just the energy of that, the negative energy, high fiving each other in the state legislature when that was passed, etc, it was repulsive. Even if you can pass it, do it with a heavy heart because you’re taking innocent human life. So that led us to do Alive from New York, and yes, I was sitting in my office I thought we need to call it Alive from New York. First, my general counsel, my lawyer’s saying, “You can’t do that.” He said, “Well, let’s wait till we get the letter.” The letter never came. My response in my mind was going to be, hey, I thought you guys were comedians. This is funny. But it never came.
Jim D:
And so we did it, we had about 20,000 people in Times Square. We did a late third trimester ultrasound of Abby Johnson, the former Planned Parenthood clinic director, who was pregnant at the time, eight months, and her baby Fulton was kicking away. And so, we did the live ultrasound along with great music and everything. We had about 400 protesters there and I just remember the first three speakers were African American Alveda King, Christina Bennett, and Benjamin Watson who played NFL football 15 years, just ended his career with the Patriots. I remember, one of them got up and said, “Hey, more black babies were killed in New York City last year than were born.” And I remember, the Black Lives Matters people, they looked at each other, threw their signs down, their protest signs and joined our group. And that was awesome. That was probably one of the greatest victories of the day.
Jim D:
But when that ultrasound came on, the protesters, their signs came down, their jaws hung open, they could hear the heartbeat. Probably the first time in their life they’ve actually seen an ultrasound and heard the heartbeat. And they simply walked away, they just walked away. And so we’re coming back May 9, a simulcast of five cities, LA, Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, to celebrate life, to show people the baby, and to make a simple statement that these people deserve our protection. This is the greatest human rights campaign in the country. And that’s what we’re going to stand for these voiceless children.
Warwick F:
Wow, that is so impressive. I remember watching that video that you talked about in New York just to see people’s faces just stop talking, stop shouting and look at the screen.
Jim D:
It was an amazing moment, it fell quiet.
Warwick F:
You obviously feel as we, I mean, obviously living a life of significance, doing what God is calling you to do. One of the things I always tell people is, leaders are at all levels. Few people are going to be heading up an organization as big as Focus on the Family. And it’s easy to think, well, gosh, Jim Daly is doing all this, what can I do? But to me, it’s, I don’t think God really cares whether you’re head of Focus on the Family or some neighborhood nonprofit or just helping a neighbor down the street. That’s all the same to him, not to minimize what you do. A lot of people will say, well, I might as well just pack it in because I’m never going to be Jim Daly and that kind of thing. I’m sure you have people sort of say that to you. That’s not the way God looks at it, right?
Jim D:
Not at all. Not at all. I mean, for me, I can remember I went to pick Trent, my oldest son up at school one day. I think he’s a freshman, I’d already been president for five years, and he jumped in the car and he goes, “Are you the president of Focus?” I said, “Why?” And he said, “Well, my friends told me you were the president, but I told them all you just worked at Focus.” That’s how insignificant the title is because it didn’t matter to me. And I said, “Yeah, I’m the president, but it doesn’t matter.” Probably the best parental lesson I ever gave my sons was in that moment.
Jim D:
And I would say, wake up every day to try to do your best in whatever you’re doing. Don’t let the ball and chain of your past bog you down. It shouldn’t, it doesn’t have to. Don’t live with that crap that took you down. And if you stay there, you’re in bondage. I’m telling you from a Christian perspective, that’s what life in Christ is all about, is freeing you from that. I meet so many people that were wounded in ways worse than me and maybe not as bad as me. But they’re stuck there. And I’m telling you, that is not the place to spend your one lifetime stuck in that kind of emotional bondage. Cut it loose, don’t hold it against your father, your mother, your sibling, whatever happened to you. It was probably very painful, but I’m telling you, it doesn’t work to live back there in the past. Cut it loose, live every day and do well and you’ll be blessed.
Warwick F:
That’s probably a final message. I know one of Gary’s phrase is time to land the plane, and certainly that. But what you said about forgiveness, certainly something I’ve had to learn just, certainly I’ve had my collection of people I needed to forgive as well as myself. You can’t move on and be whole unless you forgive. And you’ve had a lot of people that would require a lot of soul work to forgive. Biological father, foster parents, stepdad. But you obviously must have because you couldn’t be doing what you’re doing if you hadn’t. A huge lesson for everybody. Doesn’t mean that what they did is right, but for your own sanity and your own emotional well being, you got to be able to forgive. And so you’ve done that, which is such a blessing. So Gary, over to you.
Gary S:
Yes. Thank you, Jim Daly, for spending time with us. Thank you, listener, for spending time with us. It’s kind of fun for me to be talking to my old boss and my current boss at the same time. I get the last word which is fabulous. If you’ve heard anything in this podcast, listener, that you want to learn more about, you can visit us at crucibleleadership.com. We also have a favor to ask of you, if you found this enlightening, to help us get the message out to more people. And that is, on the app you’re listening to this podcast on now, click subscribe. That will make sure that you don’t miss any episodes and that you will help us share this with other people who’ve gone through crucibles and need to find the hope that Jim and Warwick talked about here today.
Gary S:
So until we’re together the next time, remember, the crucible experiences as we’ve discussed here can be painful. They can change your life, they can be difficult, but they are far, far, far from the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning, if you learn the lessons of them, if you apply the lessons of them, they can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story that can be the best chapter of all because it leads to a life of significance.
