Warwick Fairfax, Author at Beyond the Crucible by Warwick Fairfax

Ruza Markovic had dreamt of and studied for a career in journalism — when war intervened to change the trajectory of her life. While her family had emigrated to the U.S. from their native Yugoslavia when she was just 4, Markovic didn’t think twice when she was asked to return to her homeland in the early ’90s as a communications liaison to the teetering government while political unrest and then war-ravaged the Balkans. What she saw and experienced, she says, laid barren her faith in country, politics, the media, and herself. Those trials and traumas, though, did not sap her spirit. They steeled her resolve to live her life in service to others — in part as an advocate for the liberating power of education.

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Ruza M:
We were bugged and followed, and we often had conversations in the middle of the street in traffic because we knew. It wasn’t even pointless to even try to find it. And there was a moment where there was this big discussion about the American woman that came to work for the government. The reality is, I didn’t have a US passport. I had a green card. I believe I was the picture on the… I hadn’t even updated the green card, right? This was so loose. And I’m a kid out of college going, “I’m going. Nothing’s going to stop me.” And they’re having a discussion about the American woman, and I was literally barred from going into the office for at least two weeks.

Gary S:
That sounds like a pretty harrowing crucible, doesn’t it? And would you believe this terrifying trial didn’t just happen to today’s guest, Ruza Markovic? She actually stepped into a crucible that already existed in the early 90s when her home nation of Yugoslavia was torn apart by political unrest that led to a war of unfathomable tragedy. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership.

Gary S:
In today’s episode, Ruza describes not only the dangerous experiences she endured as a young woman committed to helping her homeland, but also how she leveraged those profoundly difficult moments then and in the years since to build a life of significance as a communications executive and an advocate for the liberating power of education. She has seen more horrors and heartache than many, you’ll hear. But they have not sapped her spirit. In fact, they have steeled her resolve to live her life in service to others.

Warwick F:
Thank you so much for being here. And boy, you’ve had such an incredible life and amazing experiences, obviously some of them centered around the former Yugoslavia. But I’d like to start with your background and how you grew up, which I believe was in what was then Yugoslavia. So just talk about your parents, grandparents, just what life was like for you as a small child growing up in Yugoslavia.

Ruza M:
So we actually immigrated when I was four and a half. We came to the U.S…

Warwick F:
Oh, wow. Okay.

Ruza M:
However, my grandfather was a POW of World War II and a Nazi concentration camp survivor. So the Germans had a policy towards the Serbs that was unique because we fought back with everything we had. And so when his camp was liberated by the British, they gave him options of going back home, going to the US, or going to Australia. And they were sponsored by a church group in Racine, Wisconsin, hence the connection, and the entire group of POWs ended up in Racine, Wisconsin. So today, some of my closest friends are grandchildren of those same POW survivors. They became each other’s godparents to each other’s children. And that has lasted well over 40 years.

Warwick F:
Wow. So you had really a whole extended family and friends growing up in Racine. So even though you were a bit young to remember a lot of where you came from, where you came from came with you, in a sense.

Ruza M:
It completely came with me. And the backstory, really, is that my father saw his father go off to war when he was four years old. He didn’t see him visit again until he was 27. So we came to US because I as a little girl, and my mom having lost her mom at the age of seven, I spent a summer with my cousin’s grandmother back in what was then Yugoslavia. I’m named after my father’s grandmother, so I spent six months scribbling postcards and driving my parents absolutely bananas over, “When do I get to meet her? When do I get to meet her? It’s around the corner.” So when my grandfather came here, he obviously… I mean, it took probably 12 to 15 years, brought my grandmother here.

Ruza M:
And then my father, who was the only one to graduate from college of his brothers and sisters, was the only one that stayed behind. And he literally was the one that the embassy knew, because every relative that decided to go, he was the one that ushered them in. And even when it was our turn to come, we came on a tourist visa. My father was working as an engineer. My mother was working for the biggest record production company in the country. We were living upper middle class, Eastern European life. They traveled to Italy and Greece every summer, winter kind of thing. They had this life.

Ruza M:
And then I tugged at their heartstrings. We came for a visit, and my father at the time… Two things. He missed his father, obviously. And this was, I think the greatest tug. But the other, because his father was in the US, and because Yugoslavia was a communist country, but a quasi, sitting next to the iron curtain, we look like a picnic. We could travel. You felt as free as a bird on the street.

Ruza M:
As long as you climbed up the ladder from a business perspective, you saw a ceiling. And if you had a parent that was living in the US, your ceiling was shorter than everybody else’s. And so when he came to the US, and he saw a system that actually gave you back tax dollars, that thought just kind of blew his mind. And he went back, and we went back home. He made plans. And then we immigrated September 18th, 1973.

Warwick F:
Wow. And you were four years old.

Ruza M:
I was four years old. Sadly, my grandfather died six months later. So my father had those six months, but that’s all he had. And immigrant life is never easy, but particularly when you studied in school Russian or German… And he’s an engineer. And so he started first at a gas station, then at American Motors, which Gary probably remembers well.

Gary S:
Absolutely. Yeah.

Ruza M:
And in fact, he worked the graveyard shift. And for the first several years, I only saw my parents kind of in passing. And I was the classic latchkey kid, who basically walked to school every morning and back. And sometimes my dad would try to come pick me up and wouldn’t see me from snowbanks, and so we would kind of do this. Make a long story short, he gets laid off at one point. Now, in this entire time, my mom and I are besides ourselves. I want to go home. I don’t know why I’m here. None of this makes any sense to me. My mom has had, at the time, four sisters who had kids. We were all very, very close. And that bond for me left a lasting, to this day, really…

Warwick F:
And they were back in Yugoslavia while you were here in Racine, Wisconsin.

Ruza M:
… and I wanted to go home. My dad was so adamant. He was like, “We’re going to go home after I work as an engineer for one day in this country. Period, end of discussion.”

Warwick F:
Okay.

Ruza M:
And literally gets laid off. He takes his diploma. And he was interviewed at Modine Manufacturing, which is a big company in Racine, and hired on the spot. But here’s where the story… It’s very much the seed of the way I see my life having evolved from that point. He gets a job working for the man whose manuscript he was translating because it was published in a big technical journal, who happened to be in the same concentration camp with my grandfather.

Warwick F:
Oh my gosh.

Ruza M:
So it was one of those moments where you knew you were supposed to be where you were. See, it still gives me goosebumps. And from that point on, he really didn’t look back. We made it through five years, five years before we went back home for a visit. And my dad knew if we had gone any sooner, we probably would have changed our minds. Because while this country offers you all sorts of promise, going having to not having, and doing it willingly, is tough.

Ruza M:
So you went from having the standard life of an apartment, a car, travel, you had this life, to pumping gas, third shift, I don’t see my parents, we’re scrambling to save enough to buy a first home. When the war started in the Balkans, most of our family friends thought my father was prophetic. Because at that time in the 70s, nobody left. This wasn’t this mass exodus period in time.

Warwick F:
Right, because life was good. Just to cycle back for the audience that may not know, I think a guy by the name of Tito wasn’t it, he was sort of the guy in control of Yugoslavia. And while it was communist, it’s not like East Germany or Hungary or Bulgaria or some other parts in Eastern Europe that were pretty locked down, and if you breathed against the government you’d probably be in some prison. I’m sure it wasn’t perfect, but relative to other, if you were in East Germany, for instance, you’d be maybe a little envious of some of the folks in Yugoslavia, especially ones in middle class, upper middle class like your family. So at the time, it seemed like, why would you leave Yugoslavia? It has so much promise, and-

Ruza M:
And my father-

Warwick F:
… things look so good.

Ruza M:
… he tells stories to this day of running into Gandhi on the streets of Belgrade, because as part of the non-aligned movement, you had all of this excitement happening within the capital city. And again, people thought he was crazy, flat out. So he literally retired from Modine Manufacturing. He spent 25 great years. And I would say the highlight of his career is he got to work on the first cooling engine for the Dodge Viper and the Porsche. He lived what I call his childhood dream out every day. And we were very, very blessed.

Ruza M:
In the middle of that, in order to go up the corporate ladder, he had to take a position somewhere else, anywhere else. And we moved to Jefferson City, Missouri, where we had Greek neighbors, and that made our street the most international in a 700-mile radius. And it was the best thing that could have happened to us, because what comfort zone after that? When you live in an immigrant corridor that is Milwaukee to Chicago to Indiana, you’re in a bubble. Your home could be figuratively anywhere, right?

Warwick F:
Right.

Ruza M:
Because everything within the home still feels like you’re back home. And there’s pressure to be that way within an immigrant community. God forbid we all forget anything, right?

Warwick F:
Right.

Ruza M:
So you cut yourself off in many ways, certainly back then. It’s to a lesser degree today, because the world today, to a lesser degree, has all sorts of opportunities to communicate and travel.

Warwick F:
It’s so much more integrated and global. Yeah, I mean, there are advantages to being with those that you know and the people group and the background. On the other hand, you don’t expose yourself to part of what’s new and different people groups. I get it. So-

Ruza M:
And part of that experience in Missouri… First of all, I got to see a different face of America, if that makes any sense, right?

Warwick F:
Right.

Ruza M:
The moment the moving van pulled into the driveway, people coming out with cookies and pies and like a little Mayberry. It was crazy. But the other thing that happened, because truly, we were different. You know how different you are when I’m in the store with my mom and they’re like, “Is that Chinese or Mexican?” Right? And not even close. So you knew you were dropped in the middle of nowhere. But my parents worried I would forget. And so then became the, during summers, I was practicing Cyrillic. And they would send me back, so I would spend summers with cousins in Yugoslavia-

Warwick F:
So just-

Ruza M:
… from the age of 13 on.

Warwick F:
So did you grow up in the Serbian part of Yugoslavia?

Ruza M:
Yes.

Warwick F:
Or I guess your family?

Ruza M:
Yes. Belgrade

Warwick F:
Okay. So I should know… When I think of Cyrillic, I think of the Russian alphabet, but in Serbian, they also use Cyrillic?

Ruza M:
They also use Cyrillic. They use both. Not interchangeably, obviously.

Warwick F:
Right.

Ruza M:
But one thing that happened when the communists put the country together is that they kind of made this magic happen of, it could be this, or it could be that. So there was easier communication across the whole of the country. But they sent me back every summer, so needless to say, on top of the fact that my language skills are such that you can’t tell that I grew up here, in my native language. I also had a sense for politics, economics.

Ruza M:
How could you not? Because I spent two months, really, every summer for summer after summer. And my greatest compliment was when kids were surprised that I had shoes that said, “Made in the US.” Because they had put it together, right? And that was my pride and joy, because I would spend the first two weeks kind of being quiet so that I wouldn’t give myself up to being kind of rusty. So when the opportunity came to be over there, it was kind of a natural progression.

Warwick F:
So did part of these experiences fuel your desire to be a journalist and go to Northwestern Medill school? Was there a link there between… How did all that happen?

Ruza M:
As a kid, the one thing that we never missed were the evening news, and World News Tonight was like the be all, end all. And the reason is because at the time, if a phone rang, we knew somebody died or someone was born. Right?

Warwick F:
Right.

Ruza M:
Your ability to communicate with family was so limited that that was the window to the rest of the world, and we’d all be listening for something in Europe, just something so that you felt connected. And so those were my heroes. So I literally wrote to Walter Cronkite in kindergarten for career day, and they wrote back.

Warwick F:
Wow.

Ruza M:
And that still sits in Wadewitz Elementary School, is a letter from Walter Cronkite’s people, I’m sure. But that was my goal. And the ridiculous part is, I was a math wiz. I mean, I took advanced calculus in college as a joke. So I mean, in retrospect, somebody should have said, “Is this really the path you want to go down? You’re an immigrant. English is your second language.” And I can’t spell to save my life. This is the path? It was the path.

Gary S:
I’ve never known another journalist who was any good at math. In fact, I used to say in newsrooms I worked in that there should be a big alarm that would go off whenever a journalist tried to do math, so that everybody knew… Woo, woo, woo, journalist doing math, back away. So bravo to you.

Warwick F:
I know one of the key points in your story is going to Yugoslavia in I think the early 90s. And I guess by then, life was different than when you, in your early, formative years, and-

Ruza M:
But not that different. Here’s the thing that haunts me to today. I watched, especially in those late 80s, early 90s years, where, because the moment people died, suddenly the debt is due. Right?

Warwick F:
Right.

Ruza M:
Suddenly the head of the mob family, which is really how you look at a dictator and how he lives. Suddenly the debt was due. Suddenly they were under the kind of austerity measures that you talk about today, Europe having implemented during this last economic crisis. They were rationing toothpaste. There was this moment in time of, how did we go from that to this? And also, when people died, you’re suddenly looking into the constitution, which is meaningless when you have a dictator… “Okay, we’re going to have a presidency, and every state, if you will, of this union will have a president that will serve for a year.”

Ruza M:
So think about how difficult it is to do things within a four year period. Within a year, it’s impossible. It became a zoo, and it became this… There was a lot done, and people did a lot, that actually, Saddam Hussein learned from. In fact, the same lunatic that built Tito’s bunkers built Hussein’s bunkers.

Warwick F:
Wow.

Ruza M:
And the same kind of seasoning the stew of, as long as there’s friction, people will look to me for peace. And so you’re in a communist country, and they’re starting to give more favor religiously to certain groups.

Warwick F:
Right, because you had… I mean, you know way more than me, but Serbians, Bosnians, people of maybe Christian Orthodox background, Muslims. I mean, its background… So it seems like Tito seemed to be able to hold what was maybe festering challenges that had gone on for hundreds of years. It wasn’t like this came from nowhere, all of these frictions.

Ruza M:
No, no, no. This was thousands of years in the making. However, World War I and World War II were brutal in the Balkans, and what the communists did is basically rewrite history to suit themselves. Well, once he died, this became this simmering stew, is the best way to explain it, and the lid going… Especially from an economic perspective. This was what I call ’84 to ’88, ’89. Then comes a president that goes, “This is crazy. Let’s change our economic policy, and let’s privatize.”

Ruza M:
So I’m in Serbia in 1990, watching people take literally a four by four piece of land in front of their home, and open a little shop and start selling whatever. Privatization started, and I remember how hopeful I was that they had a chance to actually become this vibrant European country. By March of ’91, that was over, just like this. And it was over because the politics had outpaced the economics, and it happened that quickly.

Warwick F:
That’s an important lesson. So from what I understand, there was a US Congresswoman that asked, “Can you go and be a communications liaison with,” some US person who was going to be Prime Minister?

Ruza M:
Correct.

Warwick F:
And from what I understand, there was going to be 10 people, and turns out you were the only one on the plane. So just talk about that whole… That must have been an amazing experience, because here, you weren’t going to see family. You were going there professionally-

Ruza M:
Right.

Warwick F:
… to help the country of your birth.

Ruza M:
The war began, and I remember even friends from school, now university friends, being like, “How can you live with yourself as,” whatever ethnicity they were associating with what’s happening in the media. And I think for me, the heartbreak was, I had family in trouble. I had an aunt and cousins in Sarajevo. I had an aunt, cousins in Bosnia. And out of my mom’s four sisters, of the five of them, four had a daughter each. We were incredibly close. Their kids are like my kids.

Ruza M:
And so this is happening. I wrote to Walter Cronkite in kindergarten, so I’m watching Nightline, and I’m watching Serbs bomb churches. The only problem is, the only churches that I see falling are Serbian. And my head’s going, if you can’t get it right, Houston, we’re in trouble. And so I reached out to a couple of… Jim Moody, I believe, a Congressman from Wisconsin who had actually spent some time in the Balkans as a young man after, I think serving in the military, something to that effect, and had run into Helen Delich Bentley. She was married Bentley, but she was a Serb.

Warwick F:
Oh, wow. Because I think she was a Congresswoman from Maryland.

Ruza M:
Yes. For many, many years.

Warwick F:
I live in Maryland, so that name-

Ruza M:
For many, many years. And she kind of put me on her radar, and calls me up one morning at 3:30. Literally, the woman never slept. And was like, “We need your help. We have this team of young journalists I’m assembling.” Milan Panic, who was, at the time, CEO of ICN Pharmaceuticals. He had zero reason, zero reason to actually go do this. But a personal friend, and a lifelong friend, had at the time been politically involved in the country, and so as a personal favor, he said yes. And so he gets the state department to approve the fact that he has a US… not to lose his US citizen. He serves as Prime Minister.

Ruza M:
And they were outnumbered, really, from a press perspective. There was so much Western media that they couldn’t handle it. And every time we’d see a report on the news, my angst was, just get it right. This isn’t about whose side I am. This isn’t a sporting event. This is, the moment you get it wrong, you have now proven to dictator A, B, C, or D, because mind you, they just woke up from communism five seconds ago. They have no other sense. You have just proven that jerk right, that the world is manipulating the situation politically. And when they don’t get it right on major television news… Or, look, Chicago Trib.

Ruza M:
Right before I went overseas, I was in a meeting with a then editor, who happened to be Greek, which made me crazy because he should know better, in the sense of, there is a big picture on the front page saying, “Croatian soldier holds cross of bombed church.” Well, here’s the problem. It’s a Serbian cross. So is he happy? The context of the photo was so off that my head is exploding, going, these are basics. I wouldn’t expect a US journalist to necessarily understand the inner politicking within Serbia, within Croatia, because we are known for five levels of chess, nothing simple. And everything is some sort of game.

Warwick F:
But while you can’t expect, you can assume that they’re going to be professional, and if they don’t understand, they will ask questions, I’m sure they had interpreters with them, and try to get it right. Because this is sort of a cauldron of nationalities and people groups, and making mistakes, in this case-

Ruza M:
If I had a-

Warwick F:
… I don’t know if it can cost lives, but it can cause a lot of damage.

Ruza M:
If I had a penny for every time CNN showed you one city and talked about another. You don’t know the difference, but I know the difference. And so to me, not only are they putting my chosen profession into big question, right? Neon signs going, is this as good as it gets? Is this as much as they care? Once I’m there, and I’ll never forget arriving, and I’ll never forget the day that we went to Kosovo, which is still a mess, with Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen.

Warwick F:
And Cyrus, was he Secretary of State-

Ruza M:
Yes.

Warwick F:
… under Clinton? Okay.

Ruza M:
And a US diplomat of what I call enormous stature. I’ve only been in his presence once, and that was it. So the level of complexity to the situation was heartbreaking. There were no easy answers. But at one point, the Italian Foreign Minister raged at the press corps, going, “When you publish that there is fighting where there is not, tomorrow there will be, and who bears responsibility for that?” Because the biggest issue in these kinds of conflicts is not hatred, it’s fear. I’m living next to my neighbor, and I don’t know what he stockpiled in his basement.

Ruza M:
So the first incidences of what they later named ethnic cleansing were people in cities, cut off. There’s no internet. I don’t know what’s going on. I’m hearing things through radio that isn’t accurate. And we’re probably next. So they took the minority of people in that city and bussed them out for their own safety. This happened over and over again. The problem is, the big light bulb of, what are they doing, turned on, and all sides stopped taking prisoners. So the level to which it went from bad to slaughter overnight…

Gary S:
I want to rewind just a little-

Ruza M:
But I know we’re getting kind of off tangent, so…

Warwick F:
Yeah, yeah. No, it’s all good.

Gary S:
No, no, no, no.

Ruza M:
I could talk about politics forever.

Gary S:
I just want to rewind a bit, Ruza, because you said something about fear being the driving force behind this. And Warwick mentioned that there were initially going to be 10 young student journalists who were going to go over there and who were going to help sort of sort through this, help the acting Prime Minister deal with this. You were the only one who showed up. You were the only one who wasn’t afraid to go there.

Gary S:
I kind of know the answer to this question because I knew the young woman you were before you went there, because we worked together at the paper in Racine when you were an intern in 1989. I knew the steel in your spine. I knew who you were then. But for our listeners, who did not know you then, what was it that kept you from being too afraid to get on the plane and get off the plane? Nine people dropped out. You didn’t. Why?

Ruza M:
The morning that Helen Bentley called me, I had the same experience my father had when he was hired by a man who was in the same concentration camp with him. I had a moment of clarity of, I’m meant to do this. So it was this, you see the road turning, and in very many ways, I had my father screaming in my ear, going, “You also have an economics degree. Go get a job. Stop working with…” I was working with a small media agency in Chicago, and so the road very dramatically turned, and this was very much all I hoped for, was to use my language skills, to see my family.

Ruza M:
So a combination of hopes and dreams, and every door opened. I could have been at Reuters or AP after all of that happened, but I saw the underbelly of the… It saved me 20 years of sitting in a news organization thinking that the power of the pen is the power of the pen. You can’t take the person out of the story. In these circumstances, people…

Warwick F:
And unlike some other journalists, you knew the whole history.

Ruza M:
Right.

Warwick F:
You understand the whole complex contextual situation. So you could have been at Reuters and worked your way up the ladder being successful, but it sounds like you felt like, “Well, nothing wrong with success, but I have some unique abilities and background to hopefully let me help a little bit.”

Ruza M:
Well, no. Let me restate that. Let me restate that. Every door when I came into the Balkans opened, and I could have stayed at Reuters in the Balkans and covered the war.

Warwick F:
Right.

Ruza M:
Right?

Warwick F:
Okay.

Ruza M:
But I saw the underbelly of, I saw my heroes sitting at the press club bar sending kids to the front lines as stringers, completely detached from the reality, because it wasn’t affecting them. It wasn’t their family.

Warwick F:
Isn’t that what they call in journalism, phoning it in-

Ruza M:
Yeah.

Warwick F:
… kind of thing? Rather than being out there on the front lines, they just kind of… I mean, I don’t know, that’s a sad image. But-

Ruza M:
But from a family perspective, the other thing that got me on the plane is immigrant communities, when the phone rings, you answer it. And back in the 70s and 80s, when your flat tire went out, you had to call somebody. Right?

Warwick F:
Right.

Ruza M:
So I grew up with a sense of duty. And so the moment that I was tapped and I was going, people came out of the woodwork to carry medicine for family, money for family. I mean, I walked in with let’s just say a whole lot of money that was not mine basically hidden on me.

Warwick F:
Wow.

Ruza M:
Just because of the situation, it’s not going to stop people from helping their family.

Warwick F:
They want to help. So I understand there was a couple of challenges you faced. I think you were maybe mistaken for somebody else, and potentially on some arrest list, and then I think there was another time when they thought maybe you were potentially part of some prisoner exchange. I mean, this wasn’t like going to the French Riviera on some holiday.

Ruza M:
No. No. No, not at all.

Warwick F:
You had some challenges.

Ruza M:
We were bugged and followed, and we often had conversations in the middle of the street in traffic, because we knew. It wasn’t even pointless to even try to find it. And there was a moment where there was this big discussion about the American woman that came to work for the government. The reality is, I didn’t have a US passport. I had a green card. I believe I was the picture on the… I hadn’t even updated the green card, right? This was so loose. And I’m a kid out of college going, “I’m going. Nothing’s going to stop me.” And they’re having a discussion about the American woman, and I was literally barred from going into the office for at least two weeks, and I was holed up in Panic’s private office, which used to be Tito’s office. So that was just a jolly good time, because I-

Warwick F:
Wow.

Ruza M:
… got to comb through all sorts of stuff. But the first time that it came out, there was a headline, and so my first reaction is, my mother’s going to kill me. And it had zero to do with the severity of the situation. It had to do with, my aunts are going to flip out, and my mother’s going to kill me.

Warwick F:
Right. What’s happened to Ruza in America? Have they just sort of corrupted her?

Ruza M:
Yeah, exactly.

Warwick F:
What’s she done?

Ruza M:
Exactly. Exactly.

Warwick F:
And then there was a whole prisoner exchange episode, and that was pretty dicey too, right? It was sort of on the border between different places?

Ruza M:
So I leave the Balkans. We were threatened with house arrest when Panic ran against Milosevic. And we absolutely found evidence that he had stolen the election.

Warwick F:
Wow.

Ruza M:
We had 24 hours to flee. But that wasn’t good enough for me. To put it this way, when you go through something like that that’s so much bigger than yourself, you can’t just come back here and get a job. I mean, your entire perspective… First of all, it rocked who I wanted to be when I grow up, my question of country, but both. Right? The US government wasn’t exactly forthcoming, if you will. There was a lot of… Just because they let Panic take the role with zero support.

Ruza M:
So my questioning of who’s on first, and what the hell is happening, just opened this Pandora’s box of, who am I? Why am I here? What’s the point? And to the point that, so now I’m home, and now I’m back in Racine, and I know every journalist on the planet covering the story. I have their phone numbers. And I’m watching their bylines being printed, going, “This is garbage.” So I started faxing them to them, and they literally took the journalistic pyramid and flipped it. So the lead was buried. This randomness came to the top, and there was all of this angst around, why is this happening? Where is it happening?

Ruza M:
And at a certain point, the media agency that I was working with in Chicago was indeed supported by Helen Bentley. But when I came home, that was a whole other affair. They had made strange bedfellows with Milosevic’s crew, and so I had to part ways in a very kind of strategic way, not to get myself… I was more afraid in the US, to be quite honest, in the community that I was back in Serbia, because people didn’t know what was going on back there. So it was this, you want to believe one thing, you don’t… It was crazy, to put it mildly.

Warwick F:
How did you adjust back to normal life? I mean, I understand you got into corporate communications for a company, and now have your own firm. How did you make that adjustment? Because it sounds like that was-

Ruza M:
There was a moment in time-

Warwick F:
… a searing experience, that whole time.

Ruza M:
There was a moment in time… Well, first of all, I got to a document that I couldn’t believe I saw at this media center when I was indeed going to say hello and goodbye to them, that as they were in a meeting, I literally faxed to a journalist who screamed at me on the phone for half an hour, going, “It will be obvious where this came from, so go hide. Go bury your head somewhere. Come back here.”

Warwick F:
Wow.

Ruza M:
He was so worried, and the story was so big, that it would come back to me, that he handed it to The Washington Post. And I’m still pissed that it appeared on page three and not on page one.

Gary S:
I love that. I would be, too.

Ruza M:
So then I go to Arizona. I come to Arizona. He wanted me to bury my head in the sand, so I’m going to go visit family in Arizona. And I go back to Wisconsin just to visit my folks, and the phone rings. And now it’s one of the people I worked with with Panic, asking me to go back and monitor the first Bosnian elections. Again, I have this moment of, wild horses couldn’t stop me. Let’s go. When do we leave? That’s when we entered Sarajevo 10 days before the last peace accord held.

Ruza M:
And I am a female exec from one of Panic’s companies in the Balkans, took the long car ride from Belgrade to Sarajevo, which I have taken many times to visit my aunt. But you can’t go into the city because your license plate, back in the day, gives you up to what city you’re from. You’re in the middle of a war zone. That’s not happening. So they drop us off at a bridge. You’ve got kids armed to the hilt. The kids. I mean, I at the time-

Ruza M:
… was maybe 26. They were maybe 18, 19. And a guy came up to us and asked us whether we were part of the prisoner exchange. And I’m looking down. It is literally a bridge, and there’s nothing stopping anyone from shooting you, and no one would care, not even for five seconds. So you start cracking jokes with the people who are armed so that they start easing off. And by the time we were picked up, everyone was having a jolly good time, because there’s no other way to cut through the tension.

Ruza M:
But there was no point in time that I was afraid, because I knew the people who had called me to do this were going to come from Sarajevo, because they had gone before us to set everything up to pick us up, and indeed they did. And there was a moment in time in that city as I looked to see how most of the city was intact, how the fighting had happened from one mountainside to the hospital, which was one of the tallest buildings in town, and the Holiday Inn. And I just sat there and bawled. It was one of those first moments in all of this nonsense that I truly, truly just lost it and said, “Enough. Enough.” If I can’t help-

Warwick F:
And-

Ruza M:
… God, don’t keep driving me into this if I can’t effect the change that-

Warwick F:
I’m sure it was devastating. For US listeners, Sarajevo was the site of the winter Olympics. I’m trying to remember… When was that? Was it in the 80s?

Ruza M:
’84. 1984.

Warwick F:
’84, just before all this happened. I think I saw some documentary after it where the ice skating was and ski runs, it was just nothing. It was devastating. So I’m sure all those images are probably in your mind of what it once was.

Ruza M:
But once you realize… Because I went to go see Sniper Alley. It’s funny. Sitting at the hotel at the Holiday Inn as we were getting our assignments of where we were going to go as monitors, all of the busboys and the folks in the kitchen would start talking to me because I was the youngest among all of these people. And so they would tell me more than I possibly could hear on the news of what actually was happening. And so one of them willingly took me to see where this was.

Ruza M:
And when he explained to me that the only time anyone had to cross was when the authorities in the city turned off the water on a slow news day, I was sick, because the media made a really bad, ugly history, and a situation that is thousands of years in the making, 10 times worse.

Warwick F:
So you come back to the US. You decide, “Okay, this guy wants me to go here, and I’m done with this.” How in the world do you move on with your life in Phoenix and corporate communications? How do you do that from the searing experience?

Ruza M:
So I had one foot here, and I still had one foot there. You still have to survive. You still have to make money. So I had what I call my in in communications jobs, still kind of open to the opportunity, especially when Milosevic was ousted and in came the first democratically elected president of Serbia. And then came the phone calls about wanting to help work for him. Of course I was in. I was all in. Three days before I was scheduled to leave, he was assassinated, and that really was the end.

Warwick F:
Oh my gosh.

Ruza M:
That was the end. That was the moment. I had this moment of… And even through the bombing of Belgrade, which I don’t wish any human to actually understand what it’s like to watch on CNN the building that you know you have family living in being shelled. It ripped us all apart. But my hope was that that was a new day and a new leaf and a turning of the page, and that’s the moment when I went, “I can’t do this anymore.” And that was the same moment that I’ll say the phone rang, and I was interviewed by several education companies.

Ruza M:
And especially those that were dealing with international students appealed to my heart, because I knew instinctively that what happened in the Balkans, you had an economic fallout that led to a brain drain. Who was left behind with those that had no options? And if you peel the onion back and you look at where the lines were drawn and where the biggest fighting was, you’ll see that they were the lowest levels of education. Those two things are inevitably tied.

Warwick F:
It sounds like what I’m hearing, Ruza, is you had this, I don’t know, maybe a dream or mission form as you were growing up, and then spent some time in what was then Yugoslavia, maybe I can’t resurrect the whole country and undo thousands of years of conflict, but maybe I can do something.

Ruza M:
Right.

Warwick F:
I can have a little bit that can maybe move it on a good path, but then at a certain point, that dream, that mission died, if you will, that, gee, I can’t do this. It’s not my mission. It sounds like your mission shifted.

Ruza M:
It did.

Warwick F:
And out of that, the whole passion for education and the importance of, I think you said education being the bedrock of democracy. Sounds like, though, from that mission, that it changed for you is something else.

Ruza M:
There was a moment in time when I was like, “Look. As bad as it is that this situation existed and all of these amazing people with great potential are leaving the country…” There was this moment of time of, yes, but one day, that same person that is left behind who rules, pick a city, will one day pick up the phone and call an intel, and want an intel to come to their city and open up offices and jobs. And guess who they’re going to have to talk to? Someone from the Balkans. Right? There came a moment where the opportunity for globalization and being in a position to influence bigger or greater change kind of woke up in me to go, “Come on. Get on with it.”

Warwick F:
So how would you describe your mission now? Because I know you have corporate communications, but it sounds like there’s a mission that you’re passionate about that really animates and drives you. How would you describe that mission for you today?

Ruza M:
There’s been a lot that’s influenced how I got here, but for me, it still goes back to telling a really good, authentic story that can affect how a person feels and can affect change. We recently did… And I am really proud of the fact that COVID and cancer, they hit at the same time… And I have to chuckle, because when you asked me to do a write up, I had to literally go back and add the cancer.

Warwick F:
And that’s amazing. Just for listeners, in the midst of COVID, you got a cancer diagnosis.

Ruza M:
Right.

Warwick F:
Which, you’ve had so much on your plate, it’s like you must have thought, “Really?”

Ruza M:
Exactly.

Warwick F:
I mean, come on. Is it going to be like plagues of locusts? What next kind of thing.

Ruza M:
No question. Right?

Warwick F:
Yeah.

Ruza M:
I also have this sense that I have this guardian angel, and her name is Maud, and she drinks. And she takes me out to a ledge, and by the time she kind of figures out where I am, she always saves me. But there’s this moment of dangling off a ledge. So to me, it was more, I truly believe God tests those that He loves, and that there are people who can go through stuff and still not get it. So to me, it was one more speed bump. It’s not an obstacle. It’s another walk through fire to get to the other side.

Warwick F:
I almost-

Ruza M:
Because what I want is right there, and this is the one more thing I’ve got to get through.

Warwick F:
I mean, I know this is a little metaphysical, but I wonder if God’s saying, “Well, I know Ruza is made of very strong stuff, so I’m going to test her, but I know she can handle it.” I don’t know whether that’s biblical or not, but do you ever feel like that He feels like, “Not everybody can handle it, but Ruza can.”

Ruza M:
But I also feel like-

Warwick F:
“She can learn.”

Ruza M:
… life is not really a make your own mystery book. Right? I feel like that if people stepped back and looked at the serendipity that inevitably leads us all… I will never forget the first interview Oprah did with Deepak Chopra. And he explained how modern medicine has gotten us to a point that you can open up a brain and understand where things happen and why they’re happening, but we can’t figure out where thoughts come from. So to me, these forks in the road are those whispers of, “Here comes the next path. Here’s the next chapter.”

Ruza M:
But I also really feel like you’ve got two choices in life. You can win, or you can be right. And being right is a lonely mountain, but the places that have been my crucible moments have inevitably been where… Because my nature is win-win. My nature is, let’s figure it out. And for those of us from the Balkans, we’re really good at figuring it out, making it work and finding a middle ground. When that’s not possible, that’s been when I’ve hit a wall. That’s been the moment. There was no win-win for me in sitting in a newsroom watching inaccuracies being printed.

Ruza M:
There was no moment for me when I’m in a corporate setting, and inevitably there was a comment made that I remember like lightning striking, going, “Okay. Here comes the next chapter.” Because I had no choice at that moment. Everything I tried to make it a win-win became a, I had to take a stand. It transgressed that moment of win-win.

Warwick F:
People that are listening to this, there might be young people listening, and some might have gone through hard times and may be disillusioned about everything, from the world to politics to business people and all of the stuff that happens in the workplace that is often not appropriate. There’s probably a bunch of young people that are disillusioned. What message of hope do you have for those who maybe they were idealistic and had a dream, and maybe it’s been dented a bit or shattered a bit by the hardships of life and by the actions of others? What message of hope do you have for young people that maybe their dream and vision has got tarnished? What message of hope do you have for people like that?

Ruza M:
You can’t let the outside world really stop you from pursuing your dreams. It’s planted. It’s the whisper in your ear. It’s the thought that modern medicine can’t figure out where it’s coming from. There’s a reason God gave you that dream. And even if you have to put it on the back shelf because you have a family, you’re doing this, doing that, doing the other, the fact that it’s there, one way or another, it will come back around. Inevitably, it will come back around. There will be an opportunity if you open yourself up to it.

Ruza M:
So if you don’t talk to the person you’re sitting next to on a plane, you have no idea why God put that person next to you. If you don’t open yourself up to the fact that the people in your life are meant to be there at this particular time, good, bad, and ugly, you have the power, and I have many times literally made a list of, especially because I’m a saver, right? I want to save everyone. And I’ve made a list of… In fact, I’ve told people, I’ve told my own family that I’ve seen killing themselves to try to help a community or family members, to go, “How many people would you have helped if you had turned this way and not… There’s a point in time where you’re not helping anyone because you’re drowning in a negativity that you can’t change.”

Ruza M:
So I have parted ways. I’ve never burned a bridge, but I have definitely turned a page, where just because we’re friends, I won’t get dragged into that drama. There’s a certain level of focus and energy that you need to get through a day and to get where you’re going, and everything is literally one day at a time. The world can change this quickly. And if you don’t leave yourself open to the possibility that good can happen, it won’t. And I think that’s the other lessons for me, really, has been, because I am from the Balkans, and we’re all kind of moody, broody. I like a good rainy day.

Ruza M:
Phoenix, right? The irony of that is incredible. So pulling myself out of contemplative… We like to wallow. We like to tell war stories. We like to go, “But there’s no hope in that. There’s no effecting change in that.”

Warwick F:
But it sounds like you’ve chosen a different path. You’ve been through some very tough experiences, seen some terrible things that people do to each other for reasons that go back thousands of years, that probably nobody can even remember where it started and why. But yet you could be cynical, you could be disillusioned. I think you’re obviously wiser. As the years go by, hopefully wisdom happens. But yet you’re not cynical. I think you still have a sense of hope and optimism. And that, to me, is a great gift, because a lot of people, having seen what you’ve seen, say, “there’s no hope in humanity. Wars will go on forever. The Balkans will always…”

Warwick F:
I mean, it was the Balkans that started World War I. And speaking of Sarajevo, it’s been in the center of a lot of things. It’s like, what reason is there for hope? War will break out. You can be negative, but yet I sense you have a sense of not naïve optimism, but informed optimism, if you will. But you choose to hope rather than choose to wallow through your whole life.

Ruza M:
And I do think, though, when you open yourself up to having a conversation like this, you do have to talk about the things that you’ve gone through, and not in a way that it gives them oxygen, but that gives you perspective. And one of the reasons that the videos that you have seen, outside of now running a company and publicity and stuff, the reason that I really started talking… For many, many years, I didn’t talk about any of this, especially the stuff in the Balkans.

Ruza M:
And part of the thing that has driven me is I see a lot of parallels in the world today. I know what it’s like to go into one family’s home and they’re listening to this news station, and go to that family’s home and they’re listening to another news station, how families, through politics break up. And I’ve seen this movie before, and it doesn’t end well. And so one thing that’s galvanized me is, there’s no one I know from the Balkans that isn’t having some sort of the same kind of deja vu of, it changes that fast. And the thought of, well, we’re not them.

Warwick F:
But them could be anybody. You could look at Northern Ireland.

Ruza M:
Right.

Warwick F:
Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland, Catholic, Protestant. It’s like, “Well, why are you attacking them?” “Well, they attacked one of us.” It’s gone and there certainly for hundreds of years. There’s conflict anywhere that, oh, those people don’t get it. They’re the enemy. I mean, it’s-

Ruza M:
There are-

Warwick F:
It’s everywhere.

Ruza M:
… three beautiful families in Phoenix who all came from the outskirts of Sarajevo. One is Serbian, one is Croatian, and one is Muslim. They were godparents to each other’s kids and were neighbors. And they left at the same time together because they knew they’d be ripped apart if they hadn’t. So God works in mysterious ways.

Warwick F:
When you see things like that, you think miracles can happen-

Ruza M:
Exactly.

Warwick F:
… because rationally, those three should not-

Ruza M:
No.

Warwick F:
… be friends. It makes no sense.

Ruza M:
But for many, many years, they were. And this is the lesson from what politics can do, what economics can do, when people, when fear, really, of, I don’t know what will happen next, starts to take hold. I feel like the last four years in this country, there needs to be some sort of a cathartic… Four. Last 10. Some sort of a cathartic discussion around, “We may see things differently, but there’s far more that unites us than divides us.” And I think-

Warwick F:
That’s a very important message.

Ruza M:
… everyone is too afraid to even start that conversation, that that’s what worries me.

Gary S:
That is a perfect note to say… I think I heard the captain turn on the fasten seatbelt sign, and we’re getting to the point where it’s time to begin thinking about landing the plane. Before we do that, though, Ruza, I would be remiss if I did not give listeners the opportunity to find out more about Pro One Media, so tell them how they can find you and your services online.

Ruza M:
ProOneMedia.com. We have done 35 years of media and video production. And I’m very, very blessed equally I found them serendipitously. I was in another big, publicly traded corporate company, and my father actually had an accident with my… I was worried that he was with my son, and I remember having this moment of, can I leave? It’s like I’m… The whole corporate setting, once you walk in that door, there’s this sense that certain rules apply. In any event, I ran out the door, right? My father had been in an accident.

Ruza M:
And I stopped at one point and said… There’s a big part of my story about my son. I went through many, many miscarriages, and a divorce, and again, had no interest in leaving Apollo. And a friend of mine called me to serve as a reference, because he was looking for a job. And as I was talking to this person, he was like, “Would you mind meeting with our CEO?” So I decided to have breakfast with the lovely lady. By dinner, I had a job offer, and I ended up in Florida.

Ruza M:
What I didn’t know is that, outside of being a very powerful businesswoman, she had four kids, six grandkids, and she and her husband, who’s an attorney, would prank call their grandkids as Disney characters during lunch. I knew I was in trouble. And she’d pick at me when we’d be on a bumpy plane ride to the middle of nowhere, and my fatalistic tendency is, being from the Balkans, of it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen. She was like, “Do you want to be a mother? Do you want to be a mother?” So I didn’t tell anybody when I started fertility treatments, found specialists. And of course it worked because it’s crazy.

Ruza M:
And I have an eight-year-old son. So when my father had this accident and I’m sitting in my corporate role, I’m driving to the scene, going, “This is crazy. This is absolutely crazy.” And I went, “I have to jump off this corporate ladder. This child is more important to me than necessarily this stature and career.” And by complete happenstance, I ran into this company that was… The couple that owned it previously were retiring. And the entire client base are corporate companies that are publicly traded, which is the world I came from. So again, it was very, very serendipitous. And I’m very blessed…

Warwick F:
Having your own company, you get to at least have a little bit more say about your hours and flexibility and being with your son. So yeah, it sounds like you’ve continued to follow your own path and listen to the still small voice, however we think of those little turning points in our life-

Ruza M:
For sure.

Warwick F:
… and you’ve-

Ruza M:
And it’s given me the opportunity to help a lot of nonprofits, so it’s given me… Because now I’m the person who says, “Yes, you can.”

Gary S:
Right. And that sounds a lot like what we talk about at Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible as a life of significance. You are definitely well-ensconced, well along the road to an entirely different kind of life of significance than maybe than you lived earlier. And that’s-

Warwick F:
Absolutely. Because we talk about a life of significance being a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, and clearly that’s what you do, and have sought to do, I don’t know, pretty much, sounds like, your whole life.

Ruza M:
Right.

Warwick F:
So it’s the definition, I think, of a life of significance, which is, to me, what we think life’s all about.

Gary S:
That last sound was the wheels touching down on the runway, so the captain has indeed landed the plane. Gather your peanut bags, get your luggage. As we go, though, there are three, and there are plenty more than three. I pulled three, I think. And actually, Ruza, I stole one from you from the sheet that you filled out before we did this. So I pulled two, and then I stole one from you, so I’ll give you full credit when I read it. But takeaways from this episode that I think listeners can apply to their own lives and their own crucibles.

Gary S:
The first one is, and this was all over your story as a young woman, Ruza, is, don’t let fear cancel your vision. Don’t let it override your passion. Sometimes it will lead you to not just experience a crucible, but in your case, it led you to jump into a crucible, which is a different kind of experience than we’ve had on the show before. Your skills and passions, listener, may be exactly the things needed to help others endure a crucible that they’re going through. Your life of significance could actually begin by choosing to enter a crucible. That’s number one.

Gary S:
Number two, as we say in every show… It’s interesting. At the end of every show, and I’m going to say it in a few minutes, we say that your crucibles don’t have to be the end of your story. They’re not the end of your story. They can be the beginning of a new and more rewarding story if you learn the lessons of them. And one of the things that we heard from Ruza today is that she recognized, in the midst of the crucible she’d been through, a commonality that education was a dividing line in some of the things she saw in the strife in countries that she experienced.

Gary S:
There’s a line of education. That was the line of demarcation between people who got through it okay and people who didn’t. And she’s dedicated herself since moving into this new chapter in her life. She’s dedicated herself for more than a decade of raising education levels. As she puts it in her bio, or as someone put it in a story on her, she has that education is the bedrock of democracy and economic sustainability, and that Ruza has worked to bring education to the forefront of corporate activism and giving. And that all started because she learned a lesson from her crucibles.

Gary S:
And then the last point, which I am stealing shamelessly… Well, it’s not really shamelessly because I’m saying that it was Ruza who created it. She wrote this in the sheet that we ask people to tell us about themselves before we do the show. Ruza said this about some advice she would give to listeners. This was her fourth point. I love this. I am going to shamelessly steal this in my personal life as I talk to people, just so you know. But she said this, the fourth point she made, “One way to get through your crucibles, call on the good old-fashioned sense of spite,” quote, unquote.

Gary S:
Not what you would think it means, right, being spiteful toward people. This is what Ruza means by that. In spite of him or her or that or this situation or that situation, in spite of these things, you’re going to move on. You’re going to keep at it. You’re going to keep pursuing your life of significance. She adds at the end, “Nothing is more gratifying than being underestimated.” It is my suspicion that that has happened fewer and fewer times in your life as life has gone on. You are a hard woman to underestimate.

Gary S:
Listener, thank you for spending time with us today on Beyond the Crucible. As always, Warwick and I would ask, if you like what you’ve heard here, if you’ve found hope, you’ve found wisdom, you’ve found some action steps you can take to get through your own crucibles from this, please click subscribe to the podcast so that you can not miss any other episode and help Warwick and I get the show out to more people. Until the next time we are together, remember what has shone through in this conversation with Ruza Markovic, and that is this.

Gary S:
Your crucible experiences are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning, as they have been for Ruza, to a new chapter in your story that can become the most rewarding chapter in your story. Why can it become the most rewarding chapter in your story? Because when you learn the lessons of those crucibles, you can apply them to what you do next, to the chapter you write next, and that chapter is the most fulfilling that you’ll experience because in the end, it leads to a life of significance.

Leadership is not, in Daniel Harkavy’s eyes, a complex equation. Its essential elements are the decisions you make and the influence you cultivate. But putting that into practice, especially after a crucible, can certainly be challenging. In his new book, THE 7 PERSPECTIVES OF EFFECTIVE LEADERS, the president of Building Champions unpacks the mindset shifts that remove the either/or restrictions many leaders feel while simultaneously pursuing success and significance. From understanding current reality to crafting a vision rooted in your passions and putting together a team to bring that vision to reality, Harkavy offers a blueprint for pursuing your personal and professional goals with purpose and excellence.

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

—

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Daniel H:
If you actually will take the time to write out a vision for your business, that’s got two things going for it. It’s clear and it’s compelling and it will cause you to risk and to stretch, and to just lay it out on the line, you have a burden or a passion, then you’re going to have a vision that’s going to affect both belief and behavior and you’ll sacrifice for it. And great leaders always have a vision that causes them to sacrifice because they are so passionate about what could be and what they see. So for me, Building Champions was about helping really successful people to win in business and in life. I didn’t like that it was either, or.

Gary S:
Did you hear that? Success in business and significance in life does not need to be an either, or proposition. In fact, according to our guest today, it never should be. You must pursue your bottom line and your vision with equal passion and purpose. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, the communications director for Crucible Leadership and the cohost of Beyond the Crucible. Our guest today is Daniel Harkavy, President of Building Champions, where he coaches business leaders in that very reality, you can have it all, as they say, when it comes to making a profit and making a difference. He explains how in a far ranging conversation with Warwick that unpacks the lessons from his new book, The Seven Perspectives of Effective Leaders. The first perspective, understanding current reality. That’s critical in any business context, particularly so you’ll hear when you’re seeking to bounce back from a crucible.

Warwick F:
Well, Daniel, thanks so much for being here. It’s a pleasure to have you, loved reading your new book, The Seven Perspectives of Effective Leaders, which I’d love to spend some time on, but just tell us a bit about Daniel Harkavy. And one of the things I noticed that you love surfing, which coming from Sydney, Australia, surfing is a huge part of our culture. So yeah, just tell us a bit about your background, family and who you are.

Daniel H:
I would love to, I have to first off just confess that when somebody reads my full bio, I’m not used to that. And it’s really long, and it’s actually a little nauseating to hear all of that. I’m just sitting there going, “Okay, get to the end, get to the end.”

Warwick F:
I tried to punch it up a little bit as I was going.

Daniel H:
You read beautifully buddy, but you have a content marketing team and it all on the website. Daniel, who am I? 56 years old, grew up in Southern California, oldest of three, come from a Jewish background. My youngest of days will always be Jewish. Who I am, first and foremost, I’m a man of faith and I’ve been married 32 years, just became a granddad and I’m going to be a grandfather twice in February. So I became a grandfather in April which was my COVID gift. And then on Father’s Day, my son and his wife. So first off was my daughter and her husband. They made us grandparents with little Eleanor Jean, and then just a couple of months later, Dylan, my son and his wife, Krista for Father’s Day, let me know that we were going to do that again in February.

Daniel H:
Then I have Wesley. And so I have Allie, Dylan Wesley and Emily, and then we’ve had nine other kids that have lived with us over the years, plus the spouses that have all been apart. So we’ve got a crazy story. We started moving kids in back in ’96 when our kids were five, three and one. And our kids, our extended family, seven of the nine have come to us with some challenges and they’ve all left us much better humans. So we praise God for that. And they’re part of our bigger family.

Daniel H:
You read that I like to surf and Warwick you mentioned that, and I love it. I’m addicted. I’ve been addicted since I was a kid. I’m going to Mexico and I’m counting down nine days with my son-in-law and my sons and some of the other kids that have been around. We’re just going to surf warm water right after Thanksgiving. And then my wife and I and my daughters, I have my 17 year old, and then the 17 year old that lives with us now, last year and a half, we’ll leave January 2nd. We’ll be over in Hawaii for all the good stuff that happens in Hawaii for the month. And all the while I get to run this really fun company called Building Champions, executive coaching company where we get to work with switched on leaders who want to make a difference at home and at work.

Daniel H:
And I’m launching a new organization, we just set it up and it’s called Set Path. And one of the books that I wrote, Living Forward is all around life planning, because I believe that most people drift their way through life and business professionals, leaders get completely consumed with their careers and they might accumulate extreme net worth and wealth professionally, and then maybe financially, but many of them wake up in their 50s, 60s, and 70s and they’re bankrupt in areas of their life that bring them true joy.

Daniel H:
So I always walk our leaders through life planning and that’s what Living Forward is about. And we’re starting a movement called Set Path. It’s a not-for-profit community benefit where we’re going to, in these crazy times of 2020, we’re going to create an army of mentors who can find goodness and belief in America’s young folks, these 18 to 28 year olds, we’re going to use a gamified more relevant form of life planning with them. And we’re going to go help a whole bunch of these young folks who are finding the world to be a little bit more difficult than I think it was when I was 22. So I’m busy, I’ve got a couple llamas, a couple of cats, a couple of dogs.

Warwick F:
A couple of llamas. Not everybody has a couple of llamas.

Daniel H:
Well, and if they do their names aren’t Gary and Bruce. So that lets you know that we’re a little weird. I mean, Gary and Bruce are cool, they’re cool.

Gary S:
I can attest that Gary’s a cool name, just for the record.

Warwick F:
We haven’t heard of a llama called Gary.

Daniel H:
My Gary has much bigger eyes than yours and he’s got these ears and he stinks, Gary. So I hope you have a little bit better hygiene than my Gary.

Gary S:
Well, indeed, indeed.

Warwick F:
Bruce’s sort of an Australian name. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen any Monty Python over the years. So from an English perspective, everybody in Australia is named Bruce. That’s the whole Monty Python shtick, if you will. But yeah, there’s a classic Monty Python skit of the University of Woolloomooloo, the philosophy department. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that one, look it up on YouTube. If you like Monty Python and you’ve got a bunch of these people with Australian hats with the corks on it, and they’ve all got the Aussie accents and they’re saying, “So Bruce, what do you think we should focus on this semester? Should we do Aristotle or Kierkegaard or Socrates? I don’t know Bruce.” And it goes on, it’s just so funny. A lot of Bruce’s in Australia. So I digress.

Warwick F:
I want to get a little bit in the crucible background, but yeah, just looking a bit at Living Forward, I liked the tagline that you have of, don’t just drift through your days, design a life you love. And it is easy to be on autopilot and just drift along with the tide, and drifting is not a plan, drifting doesn’t lead to a legacy. Drifting just leads to aimlessness and if you end up at a good destination, it’s luck. As they have that old adage is, luck is not a plan or what have you. That’s a wonderful concept. So before we kind of get into your new book, I often find there’s always a reason why we do things. And I think you’ve done some number of different things, were you in the world of finance before you got into Building Champions or?

Daniel H:
Yeah, from age 20 to 30, I was in banking.

Warwick F:
So what led you to found Building Champions and weave in if it makes sense, just any crucibles that you’ve gone through. Because I know for me, what I do grew directly out of a crucible. So have your crucibles informed what you do now and what led you to found Building Champions?

Daniel H:
Absolutely. I want to respect your guys’ style and how we go back and forth and I can be a storyteller. And I want you guys to just interject if I take too much time on that because it’s a really big question, Warwick it’s big. The front end is the short end, and that was in banking. I was in home loan, in mortgage banking and I did really well at it getting into it at age 20. 23, I was given the opportunity to lead a branch and a team. It was me and really two others, which then became one other. And from that foundation, I was fortunate to attract and coach and develop the best of the best.

Daniel H:
So out of an organization that had 202 of these folks, six of the top 10 came from my office. I could find talent. I could see goodness in them and I would actually begin coaching them while they worked for the competition before I ever offered them a job. And then what would happen is at some point, they would have a moment of dissatisfaction with their leader or their organization and they would actually ask me if they could come join me and it worked. And next thing you know, I ran the entire thing. I had offices throughout the Western United States. I was 27 28 years old making gobs and gobs of money for a young kid, no college degree, surfer, drummer from Southern California, but you know who I was, right.

Daniel H:
At age 22, I had a pretty big crisis of faith. I went to a Promise Keeper event. And the Promise Keeper events, they played different roles in my life. So I’m in banking this whole time, at age 30, I went to another one. And I was at this Promise Keeper event in California. And it was there where I really felt like I heard I was chasing the wrong things. And I had come to faith at 22 and at 30, it was time for me to shift my focus from banking and money and all of it. And I was coaching really great people. I loved them. I didn’t know why I was supposed to quit. I just knew I was putting too much of my energy on my professional side and on my monetary side. I had three young, beautiful kids, beautiful wife, and I was traveling just about every day.

Daniel H:
So I took a one year sabbatical moved to Oregon, which is a whole another story in itself. And I put together three different business ideas that would enable me to really share love and goodness, and to stir up love and good works in the lives of people. And one was a surf shop, one was a bagel shop and the other one was this coaching thing. And back in ’95, ’96, this coaching thing, people were like, “What do you mean coaching thing? That makes no sense.”

Warwick F:
Right.

Daniel H:
But it was the coaching thing. I had a unique passport. And I’ve been involved in a restaurant. I helped launch a restaurant later on, and that’s amazing. And I tried to open a surf shop with my kids a while ago and that didn’t work. But the coaching thing worked and really what I did was I built a company that enabled me to do the best part of my banking job, which was to see people, to see the goodness in them, to be a truth teller or an encourager, and then to help them to figure out where they wanted to go and then help them to identify the right steps to move from where they were to where they wanted to be.

Daniel H:
And I built models and frameworks, and again, attracted really great people. So now we’re an organization of about 40 people. We’ve been in business for 25 years. And as Gary read a list, we’ve had the unique privilege of working with some pretty cool companies here in the U.S. as well as international.

Warwick F:
You know what I love about your story Daniel is as I read what Living Forward is about, you did just what you wrote about, you didn’t just drift through life. But you could have drifted through success, which nothing wrong with success, as we say in Crucible Leadership; success is okay, but it has to be success and significance, which we define as living on purpose, serving others. And I have a feeling you probably have a similar philosophy, but you could have just drifted through a life of continual upward success and financial remuneration all good, but you decided, you know what, I’m not going to do that. I want to design a life around what I value and what I think is important. We all love when people actually walk the talk.

Warwick F:
And even before you wrote that book, you designed a life around what you really cared about. And that’s unusual. I mean, how did you do that? Because there’s a hundred people in your path that were really successful or probably thousands, but you chose the road less traveled, so to speak. How did you make that shift? Because this is before you wrote the book, I’m guessing that you made the shift.

Daniel H:
Yeah. At the time I was 30 years old and again, making really good money. The company had just gone public two years prior, and the founding CEO had identified me as his successor and I was on a five-year grooming track to replace him. So I was on the career track. And these guys that I worked with, the founder is still just such an influential man in my life. He spoke so much goodness into me and offering me the job when I was really in my teens. And that’s a whole another story. But it was at the Promise Keeper event where I really just felt like I’m going to take this huge step of faith and Warwick to your point. When I put those business plans together, each and every one of them would allow me to be where I wanted, who I wanted, when I wanted to be there. So every one of them.

Daniel H:
And when I started Building Champions, it was a company started out of a home office. And it wasn’t a company that was intended to make me rich. It was a company that was intended to allow me to live out my calling and to make a difference in the lives of other people, but paying me well enough so I wouldn’t have money worries, but not make me rich. And I knew it would grow. I put together a vision where all right, we’re going to be in these five different verticals, and next thing you know, we’ll be the premier coaching company around the world. But I was 30th year at the time, and I’m like, “But that’ll be when I’m in my 50s.” I just want to be a present dad. And I want to surf. And I want to explore Oregon and uprooting my family from California and moved up to this crazy place.

Daniel H:
And if you want to talk about crucibles, starting this company, I almost failed significantly. My wife went into postpartum depression and it got bad and I’m launching Building Champions, and I’m now involved with the Promise Keepers up here and helping them to recruit volunteers and no job. And I’m doing this Building Champions thing, but I really can’t leave my home because the two shall become one. We were struggling. And I was very close to just moving the van, packing the van back up and heading down I-5 back to Southern California where it was safe, get the company job, make the money again. And I had people offering me money to do it, but I just knew there was something in this.

Warwick F:
How did you prevent yourself from doing that? How did you not choose the I-5 head back to California route?

Daniel H:
I think what happens is… This is an interesting question. I think all of us, and I have no idea where our listeners are today from a faith perspective. So please listen to not judge, but maybe just to learn and understand my story. And my hope is that as an executive coach as Gary and Warwick and I continue in our conversation, we’re going to be talking business and I’m going to be giving you some things around leadership that I’ve learned. But a question like that Warwick, it takes me back to the very core of who I am and the challenge that I think we have as men and women of faith and every human who has faith is there a God? Who is he? Who is she? How did they create us all? Everybody has faith, or we’re random accidents, that’s faith.

Daniel H:
My faith is that God speaks to you. As a Christian, I believe God speaks to you. And don’t be hearing Twilight Zone music people. You get that nudge, there’s something in you, and I knew I was supposed to do this, and I knew I was supposed to sacrifice. And I play a game with myself and that’s what’s the worst case. And I try to imagine the worst case. And if I can deal with the worst case, then I can move forward with confidence, which leads me to a business principle, which is the second perspective in my most recent book. And that’s vision.

Daniel H:
If you actually will take the time to write out a vision for your business, that’s got two things going for it, it’s clear and it’s compelling, and it will cause you to risk and to stretch, and to just lay it out on the line, you have a burden or a passion, then you’re going to have a vision that’s going to affect both belief and behavior and you’ll sacrifice for it. And great leaders always have a vision that causes them to sacrifice because they are so passionate about what could be and what they see. So for me, Building Champions was about helping really successful people to win in business and in life. I didn’t like that it was either, or.

Warwick F:
I love what you’re saying about win in both because I think of that song, obviously we’re all familiar with the Cat Stevens, Cat’s in the Cradle song. And you don’t want to be that dad in our case where you’re so busy that you don’t know your kids. I’m blessed. I went to Oxford like some other relatives, worked on Wall Street and then went to Harvard Business School. And there’s plenty of Harvard MBAs from my generation who became CEOs and very successful. But I have three kids in their 20s. Because of COVID, they’re all with us. And I got to be with them at their soccer games and their recitals.

Warwick F:
And just for those listening, just to reinforce what Daniel was saying, we’ve got a couple of writers in our family that come from a journalistic background, as listeners would know an Australian media business. So we write cards a lot, and at birthdays, we go around the table saying, what do we most admire about whoever’s birthday it is. And unfortunately or fortunately, some of them were pretty articulate, which is fun until it’s your birthday because then they go into great detail and specificity, not just, “I love you dad.”

Warwick F:
But anyway, the point is my boys who happen to be more athletic, they got my wife, Gale’s genes, not mine. It’s amazing how every card, every year and they’re now in their 20s, it’s like, “Dad, you were there with me in my soccer game or my tennis game.” Every card, every year for years. So just being there, there’s no substitute. By all means, be successful, but if you’re going to have kids, find a way to be there, maybe not every practice every game, but it can’t be none. And again, that’s my own personal perspective. Everybody has to have their own value system, but you don’t want to live a Cat’s in the Cradle song. If that’s your life story, you will regret it on your death bed, if not before. So anyway, little off track but that makes sense.

Daniel H:
It’s actually not off track. When you think about, all right, we show up and we’re doing a podcast and we’re having a conversation, and in it, you always trust that what you’re talking about is going to be the right message for the right people, at the right time. And here we are recording this a few days prior to Thanksgiving. That’s when this is happening. And when we look at what we’ve been through this year. And we look at the relational hits that have taken place because of fear, because of loss, because of broken rhythms and broken routines, because of broken community and the fact that we don’t get the same energy inputs that we used to get when we are free. Talking about what matters most and what will bring business leaders the most fulfillment when they get to our age.

Daniel H:
There are people listening and they need to hear that. They need to hear that no matter what happens you play a very unique role in a few people’s lives and you can’t be replaced. And yet in your career you can be replaced and sometimes the replacement is actually better than you. So just get over it. But there are a few roles that you play and you can’t be replaced and I always like people to just imagine, it’s part of my living forward life planning process. But I say imagine that today you had the weird experience of parachuting in and watching your own funeral and it’s happening today. You know who’s sitting in the first few rows. Those first few rows are people that you play a very unique irreplaceable role in their lives. Those first few rows, you play a very unique role in their life.

Daniel H:
They’re going to be given an opportunity to stand up and speak at your memorial. What are they going to say? And what I do and I’ve done this with thousands and thousands of leaders. We all go through this exercise and then we create a life plan. But what I tell them is, it’s fascinating how so many of us put all of our energy into rows, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, to where our relationship is so easily replaceable. And those people will get up and say really good things like, “That guy was one of the sharpest business leaders I’ve ever met. He taught me more about strategy than anyone and you know what? He cared about me. He really cared about me.” And then what do we do at the end of the day, at the end of the week? What do we give to rows one and two? And people always give me the same answer, leftovers. I’m like, there’s something wrong with that. There’s just something wrong with that.

Daniel H:
So I agree with you Warwick completely being there and then continually for those who are married, who have a partner, that relationship it’s longstanding and enduring and it requires constant attention and fertilizing and nurturing and in today’s times, a lot of marriages are taking hits. I’m walking side by side with some guys that are incredibly successful business leaders. I had one fly in two weeks ago and we are talking about their living situation because they’re a part of the four guys right now that I’m walking through. And they’re apartment dwellers with big old estates they don’t live in anymore. So it’s worth talking about right here right now because this is one of the most realities.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah. I think last thing I’ll say on this. I think everything you said is so profound as people invest in their business to have business success but you’ve got to have the right people, the right resources, the right suppliers, all of that kind of thing. But the same is true in marriage, you’ve got to invest in it, be as serious about your marriage as you are about your business and it can be successful. It’s not rocket science. There’s a lot of books out there if you do listen to each other, forgive, do the things that your partner or spouse wants, not just what you want. There’s a lot of books that say similar things, just follow the plan. It’s not rocket science but just invest, treat it like you would a business, be serious.

Warwick F:
But so I want to shift here to Seven Perspectives and really a way to bridge this. I love what you said. I think really it’s a core philosophy. I think of Building Champions perhaps it’s… You talk about self-leadership precedes team leadership and we’ve actually talked quite a lot about self. So talk about that bridge of why that is such a key underpinning of your philosophy of self-leadership preceding team leadership.

Daniel H:
Yeah. So I’m going to carry that even a little bit further forward. Self-leadership always precedes team effectiveness. Team effectiveness always precedes organizational impact. Self-leadership, team effectiveness, organizational impact. You don’t master one and leave it. Self-leadership, team leadership, organizational leadership, you swim in all three lanes every day. And what you need to understand is that for the most part, when leaders flame out it’s not because the root of their error, the root of their failure. Very rarely is it because they weren’t as effective as they could have been with team or organization. It has to do with how they lead themselves in those environments.

Daniel H:
So what you think, what you believe about yourself, about the future, about the team, about the business, about opportunity. What you believe and what you think impacts how you feel and how you feel alone impacts how you feel to others. So the book that I wrote, The Seven Perspectives of Effective Leaders, I’ve been in six years of conversations with leaders that range… and the books build with these guys and girls that all contributed. The chairman of Delta Air Lines. He was the former CEO of Home Depot. The chairman of the Daimler which is Mercedes-Benz, they’re truck business. That’s a three pronged business Mercedes-Benz and Daimler has been a client for years. Very good friend. Chick-fil-A leaders. I’ve been in conversations.

Daniel H:
What I do is, when I was putting this idea and testing it together and I started to then work with organizations around the framework, I would say, “Challenge me, please tell me I’m wrong.” A leader’s effectiveness is determined by just two things. Listen to me, two things, the decisions they make and the influence they have, that’s all. And I sat across the breakfast table with some and Zoom with the others and sitting in a conference room with others and they would think about it. And I had one leader who did challenge me a bit. And he said, “You know what it is integrity?” And that was Horst Schulze. One of the founders of Ritz Carlton hotels. And of course integrity is required in order for us to be leaders.

Warwick F:
Right.

Daniel H:
But if you want to be effective, you’ve got to make great decisions and have great influence and Horst just adds some great gems to the book but let’s boil this complex thing of leadership effectiveness. How do I flourish as a leader? Let’s just boil it down to two things, make really good decisions and influence the right people the right ways.

Warwick F:
And i love the examples you’ve given the book of some like a woman who made fantastic decisions, very decisive but she didn’t really listen to anybody and had no influence. Somebody else had a lot of vision and a lot of influence but wasn’t quite so effective at implementation. So you make a very good case that you need to do both, make good decisions but you also got to bring your team on and along in the process and so profoundly true.

Warwick F:
And what you’re also saying about self-leadership, you look at a lot of the business failures or frankly there’s failures in the non-profit and church world, it’s often the internal. Why don’t you listen to other people? Well, because maybe you’re arrogant, lacking in humility. Maybe you think you are so amazing and everybody else is the little people. They are not as brilliant as you are because they’re not as successful. They don’t make as much money, they don’t have a CEO title so because of your own vanity and ego, of course you’re not going to listen to people.

Warwick F:
You could be, no offense to your group or me or anybody, you could be coached by the greatest people but if you’re locked into your ego, no book no webinar will solve that. You could say, I agree or disagree but you got to let go of that once it’s often self-mastery, maybe precedes external mastery. You’ve got to deal with the ego, this notion that you’re always right. You can be as Jim Collins talks about a lot, you can be humble, but yet driven so that, I don’t know, that’s not an easy thing to coach. I’m guessing. So hopefully you probably pick people who at least have some clay you can work with as opposed to granite that it’s like, “No, I am the smartest guy in the room everybody else is dumb. Okay. That’s just truth.”

Daniel H:
I’ve worked with a few of those guys. I’m usually not all that effective. And if I am there’s always tears in it. So it’s an identity issue. And really what it comes down to is who do you believe you are? And why are you here?

Warwick F:
Right.

Daniel H:
Those who have that really solid, grounded identity they can then demonstrate something that I talk about in the book which is intentional curiosity; knowing that anybody and everybody has something good to contribute. And they just believe that and that humility breeds this intentional curiosity to where the best leaders walk into the room. And it’s almost like their presence says it. Their presence says, “Hey I am passionate about the mission. I’m all in. I’ve surrounded myself with the smartest people which is why I don’t need to have all the answers because I don’t so now let’s talk about the business at hand and let’s figure out what we need to be doing.”

Warwick F:
I love that phrase, intentional curiosity. And it’s hard to be intentionally curious unless you’re humble and realize you might know stuff, you may know a lot about certain areas we can’t know everything about every area. So smart people I think are intentionally curious. So I love that. So talk about some of these perspectives. Obviously I love the fact that you talk about it’s got to be grounded in reality. That sounds obvious but a lot of businesses say, “Well, let’s do this and let’s do that. I think there’s a market opportunity. It might have nothing to do with who we are and our culture but I’ve analyzed it and there’s an opportunity so let’s go but let’s ignore who we are in current realities.” Talk about, maybe this is obvious but so often the things that are obvious are not dumb so it’s not obvious.

Daniel H:
And that’s where I live.

Warwick F:
It’s not obvious to 90% of the people but talk about why it all begins with taking stock of current reality.

Gary S:
Right before you do that Daniel, I’ll add in that last phrase that you had work about current reality, that is so key to the context in which we’re having this discussion for the listeners, and that is crucible experiences, difficult moments, those kinds of situations, being able to assess the current situation you’re in and how you move forward that goes beyond, or perhaps pulls in from general leadership to leadership principles in a crisis, or a situation where you’ve got to muster the ability to bounce back. So how does that apply what Warwick asked you in those crucible moments that we face?

Warwick F:
Yeah. Good point.

Daniel H:
Yeah. Great even fine tuning Gary for your audience. So current reality being the foundation for all business leaders, and there’s a term that everyone’s heard and that’s the ivory tower leader. Well, the ivory tower leader, all it means is they lost grip with current reality. They sit in an ivory tower, they have no clue as to what’s happening in the business therefore they make decisions that actually hurt the business hurt the team hurt the customers and their influence drops. So super simple, don’t become an ivory tower leader.

Daniel H:
So what that means is that you deploy intentional curiosity to really understand the business and what got the business to this point, you understand leading and lagging indicators. You really understand the landscape, the competitive landscape, the economic landscape, these days, the health landscape, the legislative landscape, both nationally as well as locally; you have to understand all of that. You need to be one of the most knowledgeable people about what makes the business, the business.

Daniel H:
And to your question, Gary, with regards to the crucible, when leaders fail, and they’re the ones that bring the organization into the crucible, nine times out of 10, it’s because they’re disconnected from current reality. They don’t understand their own capacity. They don’t understand their own resources. And then this connects to the other perspectives. They create shiny things that are exciting, that are not in alignment with perspective two, vision. So they’re off vision. And then they make the mistake of getting the input from perspective four of their team. And they don’t create these perspective two strategic bets to best serve perspective five, the customer. Now, if you’re not thoroughly confused, you’re really brilliant.

Daniel H:
But each of those first five perspectives, intentional curiosity and discipline will enable you to avoid the crucible most of the time. You will avoid the self-induced business failures. They’re still going to be things that are happening. I sat with some friends on Saturday night that own a fantastic restaurant in Portland, closing the doors after several years, is a great success, this one’s beyond their control. Now they’re going to have to re-imagine from a vision perspective, what their future looks like.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I love how you talk about this because obviously strategic bets is part of putting the vision into action, but it has to be anchored in reality and tie the vision as I think you talk about it being the link. One of the things that I love… I think you talk about Alan Mulally I believe, Ford and just how in some of the early meetings, so how are things going and I guess he had this red, yellow, green, whole paradigm, and people don’t tend to tell the CEO the truth. It’s not like they lie, but, “How are things going?” “They’re fine.” Which means, “They will be fine once I fix some things, I hope because otherwise, if I tell you the truth, I might be fired or demoted or what have you.” And so, I read another book by Harvard Business School professor that talked that leaders should never accept yes for an answer. Mine for conflict kind of thing.

Daniel H:
Absolutely.

Warwick F:
So talk about that a bit-

Daniel H:
Just real quick something just happened that all the listeners needed to hear because it doesn’t happen often. And what Warwick just did was he quoted my book with a book done by another Harvard professor. And remember I’m a surfer drama kid with no college degree from Southern California. So Warwick and Gary you were looking for those profound little soundbites. Building Champions? I’m going to use that one over and over. Thank you, I’ve taken you off-course.

Warwick F:
I’m trying to remember the author. Is it Ricardo? I can’t remember. I have it on my bookshelf, but that is something that a lot of leaders, they don’t do that. They, “Here’s what we should do. What do you think?” “Yeah. Okay.” It’s like you can’t get accurate information just from spreadsheets and reports, which is what you write about. You’ve got to manage by walking around that old adage. You’ve really got to… it’s not easy to get good information from your people. I mean, maybe over a few years, once you built trust, but initially they’re not going to tell you the straight scoop, I mean, that’s just not the way it works.

Daniel H:
Well in the book, Frank Blake tells a story when he was the CEO of Home Depot and he just tells a story of how the people on the team, he says, they try to hide current reality from you because they don’t want to deliver bad news. And they think they can fix it on their self, but very rarely do they. So you need to breed this open culture where Mulally worked in. And it was truly his claim to fame was getting people to acknowledge where they were failing so that they could then resource, think and come together to create success. And that changed the organization. But you have to know the business. So you have to be grounded in current reality. And I’m a GPS guy because I get lost unfortunately, quite often.

Gary S:
Amen Brother. Amen.

Daniel H:
Oh, it’s terrible. So embarrassing. It’s so embarrassing. And as I get older, it’s getting worse. But anyways, I’m a GPS guy and I use the analogy of GPS in Living Forward. I use the GPS here in The Seven Perspectives because just imagine current reality is your starting point. This is where we are today, November 2020. This is where we are. Now, nobody follows a leader whose vision is, “Let’s just stay the same or let’s strive for mediocrity,” or even better yet, “Let’s trade in the majority of our waking hours for the next three years so that we can kill an organization and go down in flames.” No one’s following that leader.

Daniel H:
So leaders need to always breed this hope into their teammates, their key constituents, their clients, their customers, which is perspective two vision. That’s the destination point. And that creates what I call the opportunity gap. That opportunity gap then gets filled with strategic bets. They’re grounded, they’re anchored, the team speaks into them, they’re all around how to better serve the customer or to make the business better. That’s why we make strategic bets, but they move us from current reality. They’re those steps that direction to move us to that vision.

Daniel H:
Now let me bring that back to a question Gary asked with regards to current reality in the crucible. I assume you’re both familiar with the Stockdale paradox, correct?

Gary S:
Yes.

Warwick F:
Yes. But just explain to our listeners why that’s so important and how that ties to current reality.

Daniel H:
Yeah. Let me do that. And then if we have time, let’s also talk about Luca in 2020 for leaders and 2021. Let’s talk about that. Admiral Stockdale was the highest ranking military officer to be a prisoner of war in Vietnam. And you mentioned Jim Collins. Collins talks about him in, I think Good to Great I believe he talks about the Stockdale paradox in that book and it’s so profound. But Admiral Stockdale is famous for not just he himself, being the highest ranking officer that endured the torture as a result of being a POW, there are many soldiers that say that he saved their lives when they were prisoners of war with him. And it was because he realized that… this goes back to Victor Frankl work as well, but it’s because he realized that what’s needed in order for us to survive is we need to acknowledge, and this is a leadership principle, we need to acknowledge that today sucks and we’re going to get our butts handed to us.

Daniel H:
We’re going to be beaten and tortured, but we’re going to endure. Current reality today is going to suck. And the situation we’re leading our businesses in right now for many immense headwinds, it’s difficult. It’s no bueno, but you have to acknowledge that you can’t like it’s all peaches and cream. The best leaders will say, “No, this is really bad. And we’re going to have to make some tough decisions, because…” the other part of the paradox, “We’re leading to a better tomorrow. And this is what I see for us.” Now, leaders, don’t be talking about your vision to conquer the world between now and 2030, you’re going to be disconnected, but do be talking about how we’re going to be better in Q1 or Q2 or Q3.

Warwick F:
But I love how you say he was grounded in reality, because he said, “The optimists didn’t survive.” You know, the pipe dream is, “Yeah. It’s going to be okay. And just ignore the reality of the pain that was coming in the torture.” That’s an amazing thing to say, because what’s bad with optimism? Well, optimism is not grounded in reality, it doesn’t lead to survival. So that’s pretty profound stuff that he said.

Daniel H:
And it’s very relevant for today. When the whole pandemic hit back in March, I was actually over in Germany that night the borders were closed and talk about a nightmare night. That’s another conversation. But I listened to a podcast done by a Navy SEAL trainer. And I remember listening to him. He was sitting out in some log cabin in Montana and he was talking about COVID and he was telling his family, “Hey folks, we’re going to be in a shutdown world for two years.” And this was like March 16th. And I’m thinking, “Two years? You’re a nut” I’m thinking two weeks, right? I’m the idiot.

Daniel H:
But the reason he did that was because he knew we were in for a long roller-coaster. So this is the Stockdale paradox; the optimists would say, we’re going to be out by Christmas, right? Six years later, Christmas is coming in and they’re not out. So what happens is they die from the loss of hope. Your heart dies. You just can’t do it anymore because of the emotional rollercoaster. Now I’m talking to you about this pandemic that we’re living in and leading. Our people are dealing with overwhelm, with fear, with frustration, with apathy, with sadness, some with gratitude, some with hopefulness. But every week, I’m with thousands of people in webinars where my team and I have coaches will lead these webinars and businesses.

Daniel H:
And I’ll always ask people to put in chat, “What’s the dominant emotion you’re feeling for the last two weeks?” I did it yesterday with these practitioners that serve autism clinics around the world. It’s the same. And it’s been the same all year and we’re suffering, us humans are suffering. So what we can’t do is we can’t say, “Don’t worry, they’re going to have a vaccine out by such and such date and that’s going to make everything better. And then we’re going to return back to normal.” Actually, nobody knows. Now we do know we’re going to persevere. And we do know that we’re going to figure out how to move forward. We don’t know by when.

Warwick F:
And that gets back to what you were talking about earlier. Just this whole VUCA world which for those who might have heard it, a volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. Well, we are volatile, uncertain. It is complex. And it is ambiguous. It’s about as VUCA a time in the history of the planet as that we’ve had. So you’ve got to lead in a way where there’s so many uncontrollable unknowns and that’s just the world, but I’d like to shift to just some of these other ones, just one last thought on vision, somewhere in there, I think one of the leaders you quote, I think this is correct, said, I may have misread it, “Don’t seek profit, but seek…” I don’t know whether it was meaning or passion. Was it something in there like that or?

Warwick F:
We’re just not against profitability, but profitability as in what is our vision. Well, our vision is to increase earnings by 20% over the next five years. And that’s our vision. Okay. Is everybody excited? It’s like, “No” That’s not going to stir anybody’s passion. And to just talk about why… because that was an… was it in there? Because I didn’t read it that long ago.

Daniel H:
It’s in there.

Warwick F:
Good.

Daniel H:
Yeah. I was with a leader where, he’s part of an executive team and it’s a very well-known company that I guarantee if you live in the U.S. you know who it is, I guarantee it. And there’s a good chance that you are a fan of the product. So a member of the executive team was telling me about the vision of the business and what the executive team had been working on. And it had to do with earnings in the form of billions in the years ahead. And I just flat out asked him, I said, so tell me, How excited are you about that?” He’s like, “I’m not excited about that at all.” I said, “Why not?” He said, “Well, that’s never been what excites me.” And I said, “Okay, leader, if it doesn’t excite you, how the heck is that going to engage the heads and the hearts of all these brilliant, wonderful people you lead?”

Daniel H:
Leaders, we need to understand profits are a requirement. We lead for-profit businesses. If you lead a not-for-profit well, you need to have enough on the balance sheet to pay the bills and operate and serve your mission next year, profits are a requirement. Revenue is needed. It’s oxygen for business, but it cannot be the bulls-eye. Every time I’ve spent time with a leader who makes profit the bulls-eye, I will tell you, they will never engage the heads and the hearts of the best people. And they very rarely ever reached that profit. In the dotcom world, maybe. Maybe then you had that chance but…

Daniel H:
I was walking with a financial planner this morning, he’s one of my colleagues, he’s a great great guy. And we were walking and we were talking about the difference between flipping houses and buying homes for a long-term investment and keeping them as rentals. It’s a night and day different strategy, and it gets you night and day different results. Well, so does being a leader who is passionate about a mission and a vision that is going to create a better product, a better service, that’s going to be good for humanity in some way, shape or form.

Daniel H:
When you lead with that or being the best team or having the best brand in the business, when that’s the driver and you then create the right strategic bets and you surround yourself with the right people in the right seats, and you just work really hard. Spend time in those first five perspectives. Over time, the profits will come. But in a 10 year period of time, some years will be better than others.

Warwick F:
There is this compelling vision that motivates people. You could look at any successful business, whether it’s Walt Disney, Southwest Airlines, Chick-fil-A, they all have that in common. Whether it’s Southwest Airlines, we just want to make travel affordable to families to connect. Walt Disney, obviously entertaining families for generations, Chick-fil-A; they all have this compelling vision that their team members are excited about. Just in the last bit of time we have, we’ve covered really the first few, these last several… The team, the customer, your role, the outsider. I love certainly your role and the outsider, that really hit home. Especially those last two, perhaps just talk about some of those last few of the seven.

Daniel H:
Yeah. So in summary, you’ve got the first five perspectives where you deploy intentional curiosity, that’s current reality vision, strategic bets, the team, and the customer. You spend your days in those lanes with intentional curiosity part of your time, every day, trying to understand them so that your decision making and influence increases, then you find that seventh perspective, which is that outsider. It’s that somebody who cares so much about you and your success and you being the best you can be.

Daniel H:
It’s a mentor, it’s a coach, it’s a board member who is just non-biased. They want to see you succeed. They’re the ones that help you to make sense of the confusion in the first five. Then that informs that sixth perspective, which is your role, because you need to do what you used to do as well as you need to make the adjustments and the changes so that you can do what you’re going to need to do in the months and years ahead to be the leader the vision’s going to require you to.

Warwick F:
That’s absolutely true. And just the interplay between your role and the outsider. I mean, part of the role of the outsider is to help you do the things that only you can do. I remember somebody once told me, I don’t know if it was a former chaplain of the U.S. Senate, but they said something like, “Do the things that you’re great at, not the things you’re merely good at.” And that seemed like an arrogant statement, but I think we all have areas where we can be great at. And so, “Okay, you’re good at that. Well, that’s great. Well, how about delegating that?” “What? I’m delegating things that I’m good at?” “Uh-huh.”

Warwick F:
Because obviously this is something that you advocate in your book, I’m sure your folks that you coach, by just helping them understand there’s a bunch of things you can do that others can do it as well, if not better, but what are the things that only you can do, and it sounds so simple, but yet you get caught up in the tyranny of the urgent and it’s… People hate to delegate, right? Because if you delegate it, it probably won’t get done the way you would. It will definitely won’t, and people hate that. “But that’s not the way I do things.” “Okay, but does it work?” “Yeah, but it’s not the way.” “But why does that matter?” I mean, obviously you have these coaching conversations probably every day, multiple times a day.

Daniel H:
Every day.

Warwick F:
I see that.

Daniel H:
Yeah. You’ll hear me say over and over, “Say no to the good, so you can say yes to the great.”

Warwick F:
And I love that. I love that phrase and really, the outsider. I mean, it’s funny, similar path, maybe on a different scale, but I’m also a certified executive coach. I’m on two non-profit boards and I love both those roles. For me it’s a good fit, because I love asking questions, but just the role and they’re both within your definition of the outsider as I see it, both the coach, board member, mentor. And they’re just so, so important. You don’t want a bunch of country club buddies of yours on your board. That’s normal in our society, but it’s stupid.

Warwick F:
One of the stories I share a bit elsewhere on the podcast and book to come out next year, Crucible Leadership that I’ve written. Early on in my newspaper days, as listeners would know, I grew up in this very large family business, newspapers, TV, radio stations. It was a massive company. Come back from Harvard Business School, sit in on a board meeting. I was 26 at the time. And a bunch of very smart people on the board from successful folks, at least some of them were, from outside. And they’re had just been a takeover bid by Rupert Murdoch,of one of the other big media companies. And we came in a bit too late because we weren’t quite as nimble as he was.

Warwick F:
And so we picked up some TV stations, but then because there was some deal where a TV station and newspaper, you can’t have it in the same market. We bought something knowing that regulations would force us to sell it, which didn’t seem to me such a smart move. There’s always VUCA, but sometimes there’s certainty. So you don’t want to do something when it’s certain that it’s a bad decision and there’s no ambiguity. And so we as a media company, we’re going to be selling TV stations, which seem to be idiotic at the time because we’re talking about the eighties back when things are going gangbusters in newspapers and TV.

Warwick F:
The point of the story is not one person asked a tough question. One of those people was a CEO of a company that had earnings increases at 15, 20% per year, for years. So clearly the guy must have had some degree of business savvy. And I’m 26. So what was I going to say? I wasn’t a board member. I was just invited to sit in there because my dad had died and I was representing his shareholding and that was a searing experience. I said to myself, “That’s never going to be me,” but that’s normal. So without going on one of the two non-profit boards I’m on, I’m good friends with the lead pastor of our church and a private school my kids went to, but I’m very polite, but I ask tough questions. I don’t care who likes or doesn’t like it. Anyway, you get the idea.

Daniel H:
Yeah, that’s a gift.

Warwick F:
Often that comes out of searing experiences, which it did for me. So I mean, you and I agree on that, but do you feel like that’s rarer than it needs to be, whether it’s a board member or coach, that’s willing to say, “Okay, I may get removed from the board.” You probably have conversations with your clients saying, “I’m probably going to get fired by this major client. We’ve got 12 coaches coaching all throughout the organization. And if I make this point, about an 80% chance, I’m going to get fired.” You probably are in that spot. So talk about what it’s like to be in that spot as an advisor and maybe about a CEO who is willing to hire somebody like you that’s going to tell them stuff that they absolutely don’t want to hear. So talk about that whole world of the outsider.

Daniel H:
So the best leaders, like we talked about earlier are humble, and they know they can be biased. And what they’re looking for is they’re looking for somebody with the courage to challenge their thinking. And the way the seventh perspective came to be, you guys need to know, the book used to be, the model was the five perspectives. Then it went to the six perspectives and then I wasn’t ready to write it until it became the seventh, the perfect number and the way the seventh came to be was I was reflecting on the last couple of days of work. And I just thought, “Man, these different executives have come in. They just want to think with me.”

Daniel H:
And what happens is, I’m the guy and I remind myself all the time; mission first, people always. You don’t get those two confused. So my mission, their mission has to come first. My mission is to help them to be the best they can be. Now I might upset them and I’m going to do my best to do it in a way that doesn’t, because I don’t want their executive functions to go into overload. And then all of a sudden their limbic system goes crazy and I’m no longer valuable to them. But I do need to truth tell, and I need to ask questions. There’s a saying, and I love it. And that is, you can tell a man is brilliant, not by the answers he gives, but by the questions he asks… Amazing, right?

Daniel H:
I need to ask the right questions to get them to really reflect. And then when I hear that they’re out of alignment when they don’t have integrity with what they’re talking about versus what they wanted to do a month, a year earlier, I need to be the mirror. That one that says, “Hey, listen, you may not like this. So please just understand I’m doing this because I really care about you and the organization, but the decision you’re making, I’m going to ask you, are you compromising here or there? Because what you said, it’s not jiving for me. So just help me to understand.” And it has to do with how I do it. There’s empathy. There’s respect.

Daniel H:
I go in with a bit of timidity and like, “Hey, this isn’t comfortable. I know you may not like it, but please know I’m for you. Breathe, breathe. Okay, here we go.” And when I was young, it really scared me. And it’s still scary, I don’t want to get fired, but I would much rather get fired for telling the truth than get fired.

Warwick F:
If you got fired in service of the client, you’d be okay with that?

Daniel H:
That’s right. I mean, you’d sleep well at night.

Warwick F:
And that’s so true. I agree with you, asking the right questions and I live in the world of questions. So that’s my natural language.

Daniel H:
Yeah, me too.

Warwick F:
It’s better than hammering them with a sledgehammer. It’s not that I don’t think those things inside my head, but it’s often not effective. And yeah, I’m blessed at Oxford, Harvard business School. The reason those places are so effective is all about the questions. At Oxford there are lectures, but nobody really goes to them. At least not in the humanities that I did. And it’s about some of the smartest professors on the planet asking you mind-bendingly tough questions or Harvard business school.

Warwick F:
You’ve got these great professors like Michael Porter, competitive strategist. He was one of my professors a lot of years ago and Competitive Strategy was one of the top selling books in the corporate world. Well, he is a smart guy, but he sits there asking questions. Okay. What’s the problem with this case? What are the issues? Question after question after question, he precious few observations. The power of questions is so huge. So you meld all these to getting one of the things you talk about with these seven perspectives, as we summarize, you talk about it being an ecosystem. So it’s not just a paint by numbers. Yes, there’s an order, but talk about why this whole thing is really an ecosystem.

Daniel H:
I’ve worked with plenty of leaders over the years where they’re really good at three or four of the perspectives, because those are the ones where they’ve got the training. They have the unique skill, they’ve got the passion, they find them to be interesting, but then they delegate or just ignore the others. And if they do they’ll get into trouble and they may not nosedive the business. But what they may be doing is preventing the business from being all it could be. They may be preventing themselves from being the most effective, most respected, most brilliant leader that they could be. So I was asked yesterday, “Is one perspective more important than the other?” I’ll tell you, if you don’t have current reality, it’s difficult to build on. That one you have to have.

Warwick F:
You are building on quicksand, if you don’t have current reality.

Daniel H:
Yeah. But once you’ve got that, then I’m going to say, all of them are pretty darn important and you don’t get to neglect any of them. So you need to have intentional curiosity and rigor and discipline with the next four. You need to be connected to the team and listening to them and asking them, what do they need and what do they think? You’re not telling them what to do when you’re trying to make the best decisions and influence. You’re trying to understand it from their perspective that informs you. Now you know.

Daniel H:
Then you can ask them questions and help them to see things differently. The same with your customers, not just where they’re at today, but where they’re going and what they need from you. What’s good with your product or service, what can improve. So I say, they’re all important. You need to spend time on each and every one of them. And it’s a daily dance and you’re going to be adjusting.

Warwick F:
They talk about a three legged stool, this is a seven legged stool. You need all seven legs. Leaving physics aside, in the world of business and life, if you don’t have one of those legs standing, failure is a distinct possibility. So you got to do all of them.

Daniel H:
So true.

Gary S:
Speaking of understanding the current situation and his role, the captain has turned on the fasten seat-belt sign so that we can begin the process of landing our conversational plane. Before we do that though, Daniel, I would be remiss if I did not give you the chance to let our listeners know how they can learn more about you and Building Champions. So where can they find out more about you and the work you do?

Daniel H:
Thanks Gary. And thanks for helping us to land the plane. I think the energy between the two of us or the three of us, excuse me, I think we would have just kept going and I’d get myself in trouble. So, buildingchampions.com, Daniel Harkavy on LinkedIn, on Facebook, the book, thesevenperspectives.com, that website will give you an assessment. A free assessment, you’ll have access to different tools and you can buy the book there at a greatly discounted rate from Baker books, our publisher, at the bottom, you can order it from everybody, Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, et cetera. But right now, while you’re listening to this, Baker’s probably still offering the best price. That’s how you get ahold of me. You guys, it’s been awesome to be with the two of you. I really appreciate it.

Gary S:
Well, as we do every episode, when we conclude, I try to give, and this was a robust conversation, I usually try to give three takeaways for listeners. It’s not the perfect number, but it’s the perfect number to get us to get the plane on the ground as it were. So I think there are three really good tips that came out of this episode about how to apply Daniel’s perspectives to come out of crucible. Number one, you have to lead yourself before you can lead your team. If you can’t lead your team, you will not get results. So ask yourself, what do you believe about yourself? How does that impact your thoughts about others? How does it affect the decisions you make, develop intentional curiosity. We talked a lot about that in this episode, embrace humility, both Daniel and Warwick talked about. If you pour into yourself, then impact can pour from you and that’s critical in moving beyond your crucible, which is the title of this podcast after all.

Gary S:
Number two, understand current reality, know what makes your business the business, cast a vision for moving forward in the midst of that reality, especially after enduring a crucible and as you move forward, take the steps necessary to begin the bounce-back from your crucible, make strategic bets on that vision that can be executed in the current reality. And the third point you heard some mention of the Stockdale paradox.

Gary S:
The third point I believe is hang on to the Stockdale paradox and I’m well aware listener. That sounds like a paradox in and of itself. How do you hang onto a paradox? Well, here’s the paradox as spoken to help you understand how to do that. It was discussed here, but we never really laid all the words out. Here’s what the Stockdale paradox sums up. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they may be. Grasp onto that. Walk in that as you’re looking to bounce back and move beyond your crucible.

Gary S:
Until the next time that we’re together listeners, thank you so much for spending this time with us. Warwick and I have a little favor to ask you if you would, if you’ve enjoyed this robust conversation with Daniel, please click subscribe on the podcast app that you’re listening to us on now, share that with some friends of yours if you think they can get something out of this and until the next time we’re together, remember this, we talked about it here. We talk about it every week.

Gary S:
Your crucible experience is real. It is your current reality. If you’re in a crucible, there is perhaps a no more pressing current reality than your crucible. If you’re in the midst of one, but it’s not as painful as it is. It’s not the end of your story. In fact, it can be the beginning of a new story, a better story, a new chapter in your life and why it’s a beginning and why it’s better is that it leads you to what we talked about here today. Something more important than just your bottom line. It leads you to a life of significance.

In this special 50th episode of BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE, host Warwick Fairfax and co-host Gary Schneeberger take a look back at some of the most powerful guests who have shared the trials and triumphs of not just surviving their crucible experiences, but moving beyond them to lead lives of significance. You’ll meet inspiring men and women from all walks of life who have overcome physical, emotional and professional setbacks, failures and tragedies to live lives on purpose, rooted in their passions and talents. From the Hollywood actor/writer/director whose first film flopped so badly it was almost his last to the young woman selling her gourmet cookies out of her driveway, from the motivational speaker who grabbed the brass ring only to realize it was lead to the former NFL quarterback who couldn’t live up to the MVP career of his father but has carved out a post-football calling that helps marriages and families, you’ll find hope and healing in these conversations filled with wisdom and vulnerability.

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

—

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Gary S:
Well, welcome indeed listener to this monumental, dare I say, episode of Beyond the Crucible. That was, and will soon be again, Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership and the host of the show. I am Gary Schneeberger, the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership and the co-host of the show. And I say monumental because this, Warwick, is our 50th episode. Can you believe it?

Warwick F:
No, I can’t. I mean, it’s hard to believe that we started this a little over a year ago in November. 50 episodes. I mean, who knew? That’s just staggering, hard to believe.

Gary S:
And what we wanted to do, right? Because in Hollywood, when a TV show has a hundred episodes, they have a party and they have a cake. And unfortunately we can’t share cake together right now. But we wanted to mark the occasion with a special 50th episode. And the idea behind the 50th episode that we’re going to go on as we go through is talk about some of the most insightful guests, the guests that we remember perhaps the best over the time that we’ve been doing the show, as you said, for just over a year. And one of the things, Warwick, that I found when I was doing some research, even though I’m not a numbers guy, how many hours of content do you think over the 49 episodes, now 50th, but how many hours of content do you think we’ve had?

Warwick F:
I don’t know. Like 30, 40?

Gary S:
Bravo, bravo. By the time this episode is finished, we will have about 40 hours of content since starting Beyond the Crucible. And think about that for a minute. That consumes the traditional work week. Right? The traditional American work week is 40 hours. We have an American work week’s worth of shows of this podcast, and that’s a pretty good reason to celebrate, I think.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah, it’s a huge milestone. And obviously we’ll talk about just the diversity of guests and backgrounds and experiences. I mean, I’ve learned a lot as I’ve listened to the folks who we’ve been interviewing and the dialogues we’ve had. And yeah, it’s just been a tremendous learning experience for me and I’ve loved being part of it.

Gary S:
Yeah. To your point about diversity, we’ve had business leaders, community leaders, non-profit leaders, thought leaders, adventurers and academics who have shared the microphones with us. We’ve had a Hollywood actor, producer, writer, director on one side. We’ve had a young woman who sells cookies out of her driveway. There’s such diversity. But the one thing that they all have in common, a couple of things they all have in common, they’ve either been through a crucible or crucibles, sometimes very traumatic trials and tragedies and failures and setbacks, or they’ve been through maybe a couple of crucibles that maybe weren’t as intense, but they have a perspective on how listeners can bounce back from crucibles. And that’s really been, as you look at the portfolio of guests we’ve had, that it all boils down to, right, the vision that was hatched when the show was started of helping people get beyond their crucibles, offering hope and insight on how to do that.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. And it’s just remarkable to me. I mean, you mentioned diverse. We’ve had men, women. We’ve had people of all different backgrounds, races, all different countries, have a huge variety of crucibles from abuse to abandoned orphan to Navy Seal being paralyzed in a training accident, former NFL quarterback, business challenges. A huge variety of diversity in every form of that word. But you’re right, there’s a couple of things that we’ll talk about that is similar in every guest we’ve had. They’ve not let the crucible, as you say at the end of every podcast, not let the crucible be the end of their story, but an exciting new chapter. They have not given up. They have not let a tragedy define them. They have hope. They’ve not let grudges or anger sometimes. Obviously in the case of abuse, there’s a lot of grounds for anger. They’ve not let any of that hold them back.

Gary S:
Right.

Warwick F:
That the traits of what it takes to overcome a crucible are very similar despite the radically different experiences and the diversity of the guests. That was what is probably one of the single most amazing things to me, single most learning points from myself personally.

Gary S:
For sure. And one of the things I thought of right before we got on here, and we haven’t really talked about this in a year. I mean, we haven’t talked about this since we just started. But do you remember back when we first started the show and there was concern on our parts that, oh my goodness. So what makes the podcast interesting is that people don’t talk about failure much. So, we’re going to have content that other people don’t have. But wait a minute, if people don’t talk about failure much, how are we going to find guests? And I remember early on there was a concern on our parts that we were going to … how are we going to find guests? And that has not proven to be a problem. I mean, we are 32 guests into the show so far, and as you said, great diversity in their experiences. And then that common denominator of not giving up, of persevering through the crucible.

Warwick F:
And what we really appreciated about our guests is they’ve been willing to be vulnerable, to go there. I mean, that’s the core of Beyond the Crucible, the core of the book which since the book Crucible Leadership which will be released next year, birthed Beyond the Crucible. But that’s the core idea. I’ve being very open about my own experiences growing up in a large family media business. And after my failed $2.25 billion takeover, the trauma that … maybe trauma’s too strong a word, but certainly the challenges it posed in my life. And I’ve tried to be open and vulnerable about what I went through and what I’ve learned, but I guess I’ve also been very open.

Warwick F:
And one of the things it’s important to me is I don’t want to just hear what happened. I want to hear how they felt in the tragedy, not just to dwell on the pain. So, when they talk about the hope they have now, the listener understands there’s a sort of a yin and yang, two different sides of the same coin of the pain and the tragedy, but then the hope and the joy that’s come later. So, hearing the emotion behind the story is really important to us. And I’d say every guest has gone there. Every guest has been open and vulnerable about what they felt and their emotions.

Gary S:
Absolutely. And in fact, and we’ll hear some of them as we talk through the guests that we’re highlighting here, we’ll hear some of them express that for the first time, in some cases, in having the conversation with us, they’ve realized certain points about their journey back from the crucible.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah, there’s one thing I wanted to add. And obviously we’ve been thinking about Beyond the Crucible. It’s interesting to look back on how did we get here. How did we get to Beyond the Crucible? And it’s really, as I was reflecting last night, I said a thought quite a bit about vision and how visions can grow.

Gary S:
Right.

Warwick F:
And I remember, as listeners will know in 2008 when at my church in Annapolis, Maryland, where we live from Australia, but we lived here for, gosh, maybe 30 years, a long time. And I was giving a message about my story and like a 10-minute message to illustrate some sermon point. And I figure who could relate to my story? Failed media mogul, nobody knows anything about Australia in the U.S., certainly not about Fairfax Media. And somehow my story resonated and I was open and vulnerable in what I went through, what I learned.

Warwick F:
Then I start writing Crucible Leadership about anchored by my story and stories of my family and some inspirational historical leaders. And then that grew into, well, to sell a book or to get it published, you’ve got to have a brand. So, then I have a great branding and marketing team at Signal that helped with the website and blogs and social media. You came on board with ROAR and helped me with public relations and now just with the book and so many things, with the podcast. Keri came on board to help selling the book and marketing strategy for the book. All of this grew. And then, as you say, about a year ago, we had this conversation, well, how about a podcast? I’d been on some other people’s podcasts.

Gary S:
Right.

Warwick F:
I’m somewhat of a reserved person. So, okay, well, let’s see how this works, and it works. So, the point of the story is, one of the things I’ve learned is visions grow. You started off with I want to get a book published. I guess I need a brand. Well, I guess I need a blog. Okay. Social media. I’m not somebody that posts a lot on social media just in terms of my generation, something I really have an excessive need to do, but I realize it’s important to get your message out, and I want to get my message out, so okay. Podcast. Okay, that’s another good way of talking about your message. So, this wasn’t some big grand plan other than publish the book. So, I think for listeners, when you have a vision, realize it can grow and that’s okay. And your comfort zone can move. And just step by step, bit by bit, visions can grow, and that’s good.

Gary S:
Yeah. And from the perspective that we had starting out that I mentioned that, geez, okay, people don’t like to talk about failure. How are we going to find people to talk about failure? We did. And not only did we find people to talk about their crucibles in honesty and transparency in detail. But one of the things that we have done to help guide us, a roadmap to get us through this episode, is that we discovered what I’ve called a three by three approach to what we’ve accomplished at Beyond the Crucible and how we’re going to go through this episode, and that is we found basically three kinds of shows. We produce three kinds of shows, one each week, here at Beyond the Crucible.

Gary S:
One kind of show is about people’s crucibles. And that’s the vast majority of the shows that we do are people who have had crucible experiences telling their story of how they have bounced back, moved beyond those crucible experiences, and are now pursuing and living lives of significance. That’s the one kind of show. Second kind of show are we added this a little bit later on in the process earlier this year. Actually, since this is January 5th when you’re hearing this, that was later last year. Perspective guests, guests who maybe don’t have the most searing crucibles, to keep up with the metaphor of fiery furnace that melts metal, but they have a great perspective to help people who are coming back from their crucibles understand how to do that. So, we’ve got crucible guests and prospective guests.

Gary S:
And then from the outset, we’ve had these shows, Warwick, that it’s just the two of us having a conversation. And the reason behind that, the reason that we wanted to go there from the start, is based on what you talked about just a little bit ago, is your journey in coming to start the podcast was your own crucible and your own experience in unpacking what you learned as you came back from your crucible. So, having those three kinds of shows has made, I think, for a diverse set of circumstances and conversations, don’t you think?

Warwick F:
Absolutely. I’ve really enjoyed just the diversity of the guests and talking about that. But then we’ve had thought leaders, and we’ll talk about some of them later, like Professor Joseph Badaracco of Harvard Business School. And he’s written a couple books that we’ll chat about, Leading Quietly and Step Back. And sometimes as we talk to either guests who have crucibles or perspective guests, they’ll say something, and we’ll chat about this later. But Professor Badaracco talked about quiet leadership versus heroic leadership. And it occurred to me, I grew up with a heroic leadership model.

Warwick F:
So, we ended up doing a perspective, I’m sorry, a conversation between the two of us unpacking more about heroic leadership. And we’ve done ones on vulnerability and significance and a whole bunch of them. So, sometimes there are things that we really want to talk about. Sometimes an idea has come out of a conversation that we’ve had with a guest, and we think we want to explore this more. So, it’s really a great place where we can just go deeper on some issues between the two of us that are just either come from a guest or just come from a thought we’ve had.

Gary S:
Right. And those three kinds of shows, if we back up to the first kind of show, that’s why I call it a three by three, right? There’s three kinds of shows. And in the first kind of show, we’ve identified, generally speaking, that there are three kinds of crucibles. In those crucible shows, we generally big picture, big tent. There are folks who have had physical crucibles. They’ve had injuries, they’ve had illnesses, they’ve had something that has limited them, challenged them physically. That’s the first of the three kinds of crucibles.

Gary S:
There are folks who’ve had emotional crucibles, and a lot of our guests have been there, who’ve struggled with something that happened to them, something that maybe they caused to happen, but it’s more emotional than it is physical. And then there’s professional crucibles, those things that are failures and setbacks in the workplace. And many times, and we’ll discover that as we go through and we start to begin to unpack here in a little bit, some of the guests that have really stood out to us, many times there’s overlap, right? These aren’t rigid, everybody’s in an iron box. Right? There’s a lot of overlap between the physical crucibles, the emotional crucibles and the professional crucibles.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s so true. Because very often I’d say almost always folks that have had physical crucibles, and we’ll discuss this in a minute, they can’t always change the physical side, but the emotional side is also devastating. Coming to grips with, as one of our guests or a number of them talk about, a new normal is how do you emotionally recover. That’s as big a part for those with physicals. So, physical, emotional, even those with professional. Very often professional crucibles have to do with identity. Who am I? Do I have my identity just in my career? So, there is overlap between these three. I mean, there’s the primary crucible, which is how we’ve chosen to separate it, which makes sense. But there is overlap between the three categories, there is no question.

Gary S:
Absolutely. And speaking of that, listener, thank you for listening to our wind up here, for paying attention as we’ve, in the baseball metaphor sense, we’ve wound up for the pitch, because now we’re about to really pivot into talking about some of those shows, some of those guests, and some of those conversations that have really stood out. And that’s been the fun part about planning for this 50th episode is going back and reviewing the content that we’ve created. And we’re going to start talking about physical crucibles, those things that, in many cases, can be the most dramatic, right, because you’re talking about a life that is restricted, is changed. As we say a lot, the trajectory has changed because of a physical illness, ailment, injury, something along those lines.

Gary S:
And the first person, the first guest that we’re going to talk about in that physical crucible perspective, is a young woman named Michelle Kuei. And Michelle’s story, just a brief setup, is that she was in a tragic car accident when she was 11 in Taiwan where she grew up. And what happened to her is that it left her with physical and emotional scars that she’s dealt with that plagued her for 30 years. But her body stopped growing after the crash, and that made her really get consumed by this idea that she was not normal. She was in her thirties, still the height she was, still the body size and type she was when she was 11. And that caused a whole bunch of pain and fear and retreating from life a little bit.

Gary S:
And it was only when she took up hiking that she ended up beginning to burst through that, a 30-year journey. But she took up hiking, and that ended with her, you’ll remember this well, Warwick, she ascended Machu Picchu, and that was when she learned that she wasn’t just normal, which was her goal all her life. She just wanted to be normal. She realized, nope, I’m not just normal, but that she had extraordinary in her. That episode, to me, stands out as one of the most revealing and inspiring that we’ve had.

Warwick F:
Yeah, there’s no question. She is probably one of the most inspirational guests that we’ve had. Because there’s the contrast with the pain, physical and emotional, and her countenance now which is so full of joy. And she’s all about empowering people. And she has her own coaching, Elevate Life Coaching, where she tries to help people discover their strength and inner beauty and overcome the fear of judgment and internal negative self-talk. But what is amazing is this has been decades in the making where she is. A really important lesson for listeners is don’t expect to bounce back overnight, or even in a year or two years, necessarily. It can be painful.

Warwick F:
Now the physical, I don’t know that that changed that much after her accident. She is four foot something. She has crutches. When she go to the grocery store, she can’t reach things on the top shelves. She has to use a crutch to knock it off or have a hopefully good Samaritan help her out, which is just tedious. I mean, that’s not something you don’t do that often. It’s just frustrating.

Warwick F:
But you’re right. That whole Machu Picchu episode, I think we have it. I don’t know if it’s seven, eight minutes on YouTube. It’s really well worth listeners having a look at just that scene. And it’s this Inca town at the top of this mountain in Peru, and the trail is very steep. And there she is and her crutches, and the last part of that journey is like 50 steps, really steep, and she’s climbing up. She can’t use her crutches because it … She’s has to crawl on her hands and knees. And she’s got a whole team with her, people that she didn’t know before, but they’re just cheering her. “Michelle, Michelle.” Kind of like team Michelle, right? Well, actually, that’s what they called it afterwards.

Gary S:
Yep.

Warwick F:
So yeah, just her whole countenance now. And she’s written a book, Perfectly Normal. And so, there was a time in which she felt bad about herself, that she felt like she wasn’t pretty like the other young girls when she was growing up and dating and all of that. I mean, friendships. So much felt like it just wasn’t easy anymore. But now she just has this incredible countenance of joy and wanting to empower people. And yeah, she is really inspirational. The physical was hard, but the emotional, that’s been a lifelong journey to try to combat.

Gary S:
Correct. And I’ve been blessed since that episode. It was our 19th episode. So, I’m not going to do the math cause I’m bad at math. But I’ve been blessed since then to become friends with her, and we’ll talk semi-frequently in email and text. She sent me a great Thanksgiving card that was just so sweet and so kind. And one of the things that she said in that episode that continues to stick in my mind, she said this, “Each and every one of us is a gift to this world.”

Gary S:
And when she came and she realized that, that was really when it all started to fall together after those 30 years of what was kind of an emotional physical wilderness for her. And what she was able to do the moment where she realized that is that she realized that this is how I am and this is who I am. She realized, this is how she was going to look for the rest of her life. She can accept this is how she’s going to look and she can embrace every part of herself, because there’s something else other than what we see on the outside.

Michelle Kuei:
In order to overcome your emotional challenge, many times you have to be able to recognize it. You have to allow it. You have to accept it. And my condition, my physical challenge, was something I needed to accept. This is how I am, and this is who I am. This is how I’m going to look for the rest of my life. I can sit here and not accept it and keep having resistance, keep having that fighting emotion, and keep wanting to understand why has it done to me and keep wanting, exploring in that victim thinking mentality or mindset, or I can accept that this had happened. It’s very unfortunate, but it happened. I can except this is how I look, and I can embrace every part of me because there’s something else other than, greater than, what we see on the outside. It’s not just the physical appearance. It’s not just what we see externally. It’s what’s going on in the inside. There’s a light that’s inside each one of us. That’s what we need to accept.

Gary S:
How beautiful is that?

Warwick F:
It is. I mean, speaking of beauty, really, she has this incredible inner beauty. Her soul is just radiant, is just remarkable. And people know the challenges that she has been through physically. And because she has so much joy, it gives other people hope. It’s like, “How does she do this? How can she be so joyful? How can she accept who she is and what she’s been through?” But she has in so many ways. I mean, she has this inner light that really shines brightly and elevates and uplifts everybody she comes in contact with. She is a true inspiration.

Gary S:
Yeah. Her energy, her optimism, her … I’m friends with her on Facebook and her energy and optimism that she does with her community and just her friends is so infectious. You can be in a bad mood, hop on Facebook, see something that Michelle Kuei’s posted. and you’re like, “Okay, I’m not in such a bad mood anymore,” because she’s just got so much positive energy and so much hope. She offers so much hope.

Gary S:
And that is also the story of another physical crucible guest that we’ve had on offering hope. And that’s really what we try to do with all of our guests who’ve had crucibles, how did they find hope? And Ryan Campbell is another young person, a man in his twenties, who went through a horrific physical crucible and as emerged on the other side encouraging people, offering hope inspiration to them. And he is, you mentioned it early on, Warwick. You mentioned that we had people from lots of different nationality backgrounds. I think Australians number one among the backgrounds we’ve had, and Ryan is a young man from Australia. So, I don’t know if that’s coincidence or you’re…

Warwick F:
Yeah, I wonder how that happened. Who knew?

Gary S:
But Ryan’s story, is so fascinating and so inspiring. He became the youngest pilot to fly solo around the world. But then two years later, he’s living his vision. He wanted to be a pilot since he was a little boy. He’s living his vision. And then two years later, he was in a plane crash, a horrific plane crash, that threatened more than the dream that he started at age six. He was left a paraplegic after that accident. But he fought back physically and emotionally to walk and to hope again, and most importantly, from a life of significance perspective, to help others hope again.

Ryan Campbell:
We started the airplane. You actually have to grab the propeller and spin the propeller with your hands and start it by hand, so it’s a very old technology. And we taxi to the end of the runway. We lined up on this short grass airstrip. Nice and early in the morning to take off and go and look at the beach. And I pushed the power forward, the airplane performed beautifully, and we lifted off the ground, the runway. And the fence at the end of the runway disappeared beneath the nose. And straightaway at about 150 feet over the top of trees the engine failed. And we had a partial engine failure. And within three seconds, despite everything that I could do, we just … I don’t know what I ever could have done different. We had nowhere to go and we ended up in what was a horrific plane crash. And it’s just not explainable how bad it was. And I was cut from the wreckage, placed into a helicopter and flown to hospital, but I was the only survivor.

Gary S:
That story also was one truly inspiring from the start to the finish.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, his was almost like a double crucible, but he has two huge stories. Here he is at 19 growing up in Australia and just has this dream of flying. He’s wanted to do that since he was a kid and had this idea that he could fly around the world and wanted to be the youngest, which he did. And just that whole journey, getting funding. I remember he wrote a letter to Dick Smith who’s this sort of maverick entrepreneur, owns the equivalent of Best Buy in Australia, and has supported whole bunch of different adventurers, including somebody who we recently had on the podcast, which was so recent was didn’t make the 50 conversation. Lisa Blair who sailed around the Antarctic, which is a whole nother incredible adventure which is absolutely worthy of listening to.

Gary S:
And she also is from where?

Warwick F:
Australia. Exactly. Of course. Australians are so adventurous, I guess. But yeah, so here’s Ryan. He accomplishes an amazing feat, really put himself out there. And then he just had this idea that he loved flying vintage airplanes, so the biplane. You have twenties, thirties, kind of 1920s, thirties planes. And he had somebody with him helping them give joy rides. People want to go up in planes like this. And it was just this incredible bad luck, really, that he’s a very accomplished pilot, he’s in this old plane, and somehow the engine cut out.

Warwick F:
And as he puts it, if the engine and cut out 20 seconds early or 20 seconds later, he would have been fine. He could have either not taken off or he could have glided down, but he was over trees and there’s nothing he could do, and it wasn’t his fault. But the passenger that was in that plane died. So not only did he have physical challenges, he had to accept the fact that the person that was within his plane died. Objectively, he knew that it wasn’t his fault. There’s nothing he could do. It’s an old plane, things happen. But he had to the physical. I mean, he can walk now, but as he puts it somewhat humorously, he kind of walks like he’s had a bottle of Jack Daniels I think is how he expresses it.

Gary S:
Yeah.

Warwick F:
So, it looks like it’s had a few too many. And so, he’s still not a hundred percent, so to speak. But he is functional, and he just talks about having a mindset toolbox to overcome crucibles. And his whole way back of feeling sorry for himself in hospital and looking out at somebody else in the rehab clinic who is just trying to move one little finger just like a little bit.

Gary S:
Right.

Warwick F:
And he’s thinking, “I’m feeling bad about myself. I can do more than move a finger. And this guy is looking at me, like looking through my soul, saying,” as we say in Australia, “Hey mate, what are you complaining about?” Now he didn’t say that, but the look said everything. And Ryan, you want that look meant. It’s like, “Okay, good point. It’s not great, but I’m not where this other guy is.” So, his ability to bounce back from that somewhat physically, but especially emotionally. And he still enjoys flying. He tried to fly a helicopter which one road a bit too far, but at least he can fly. His whole attitude of hope, similar in one sense to Michelle Kuei. He has this hope, the sense of optimism, despite what he went through.

Gary S:
Yeah. And what you just said, Warwick, about him comparing himself to that other gentlemen in the hospital with him reminded me of another physical crucible guest that we had. It was actually two guests. It was a father and son, both of whom were former Navy Seals. And I remember that it was Mike and David Charbonnet are the guests. There were our fifth show very early on. And quick rundown of their story. David Charbonnet was the son who followed in his dad Mike’s footsteps, joined the Seals, and then he was hurt in a parachuting accident and he was paralyzed. And while he was telling that story, Warwick, I don’t know if you remember, but while he was telling that story, you were telling your story. And I was trying to make a point about how no matter where, your crucibles can be similar. Even if the circumstances are different, the emotions are often the same.

Gary S:
And you made an offhand comment that your crucible certainly wasn’t as devastating or I forget the words you used as David Charbonnet’s might have been. And Mike, his dad, stopped you and said, “We should never compare our crucibles, never compare our pain, because what’s the most painful for you is the most painful for you.” So, the idea that the flip side to what Ryan did was to say, “Geez, I don’t have it as bad as that guy.” The idea of saying still knowing that your crucible, your pain, is your pain and not to just dismiss it, to live through it, to accept it, like Michelle did, to take it, to realize it’s there, to accept it, and then move on, I think is an important bit of what we’ve been able to draw out of guests as we’ve talked to them.

Warwick F:
No, that’s so true. I mean, it was inspirational what Mike Charbonnet shared, that your pain, your crucible, you can’t compare it. It’s every bit as painful. That was a remarkable episode because you had both father and son Navy SEALs. Mike thought about his son, that his son was subjectively maybe could be one of the best SEALs ever. As a Navy SEAL, you don’t make those comments idly. And so, that was Mike’s perspective. To see his son just paralyzed and his career dream gone was tough, and it was obviously tough for the son. But physically, there was only limited ability to overcome that, but he’s now heading up a vet rehabilitation clinic in San Diego and sort of latest technology to help vets have the best movement they can. And so again, using his pain for a purpose, and that’s also inspirational. David Charbonnet could have given up on life and felt very angry and bitter, but he didn’t. He’s using his pain to help others and help other vets. Yeah, I applaud him for his life and how he approaches it.

Gary S:
He is living a life of significance. Another guest that I think of when we talk about this subject of physical crucibles is a man named Tim Hague. Tim is one of the few people, it’s very rare, who was diagnosed with early onset Parkinson’s disease. Tim was a nurse, so he kind of knew it was coming even before. He felt the tremors and he felt some things, and he knew that’s what it was and the diagnosis was confirmed. He was 46. He was active and he was vibrant, and suddenly this disease began to attack his body and slow him down and make it hard for him to do things that he had taken for granted.

Gary S:
One of the things he said at the end of that show that I think was so inspirational was he had to believe there was something good in it for him as he processed early onset Parkinson’s. He said he had to believe there was something good in it for him. Otherwise, it doesn’t make any sense. What he was saying was, “The lessons of this crucible, I have to learn them and apply them because that will be good for me, and then by extension, good for others, helping others.”

Warwick F:
Tim Hague was also incredibly inspirational. He’s a person of faith, Canadian. Because he’s been a nurse for a very long time, as soon as he started feeling that tremor in his left toe, he knew, as you say, he knew immediately what that was, Parkinson’s. Didn’t need to go to the doctor. Obviously he did, got the whole tests, and started a simple process of figuring that out. But obviously, you’ve got to be angry, frustrated. It’s like, “Really? 46?” I mean, that hardly ever happens to somebody so young, but he did not let it destroy him. He knows all the data. He knows the actor Michael J. Fox has helped raise millions, if not billions, of research into Parkinson’s that so far has not really found a cure. I mean, in his perspective, all the best will in the world hasn’t accomplished that much objectively. Not that there hasn’t been a huge amount of effort, but there’s not been much forward progress in significantly finding a cure. But yet, he has turned his challenge and he’s not let it get him down. He won the Amazing Race Canada, which him and his son did.

Gary S:
Awesome.

Warwick F:
How is that possible with Parkinson’s and that kind of disability to win? I mean, that was a miracle. It’s a whole nother story worth listening to podcast for more details, but he now helps other people with Parkinson’s disease. While there is no cure, with the proper diet, exercise and mindset, you can be more functional. You can have significant difference in your functionalities which I didn’t realize. And so, he is really helping a lot of folks with Parkinson’s have the best quality of life that they can. So again, a real inspirational figure. I don’t sense he’s not happy that he has Parkinson’s, but it’s not destroying him. He’s not in a well of bitterness that’s eating away like acid at his soul every day. That’s not him. Really an inspiration.

Gary S:
He’s a young man, Tim Hague, a young man with an older person’s ailment, disease. This leads me to segue into our next area, which is emotional crucibles. Because among all of the emotional crucibles we talked about, when I think of young man and doing something that you tend to only think happens to folks who have a little bit more tread off the tires, I think of Adom Appiah. Adom is a 16 year old young man, one of the most remarkable people we’ve talked to because his perspective on things, his maturity in dealing with his crucibles and his perspective on how to come back from that is so far beyond his years. I’ve never heard you in an interview, Warwick, say wow or just be blown away by what a guest says more than I heard you in that interview with Adom.

Gary S:
It all started for him when he grew up in eighth grade. He finally, after dreaming for years, he wanted to be in the national spelling bee, but he got knocked out of the national spelling bee early. This thing that he’s dreamt of for maybe half his life or a third of his life, because he’s only in eighth grade at the time, he’s dreamt about it, he studied for it, he’s done all of these things, but he got knocked out early. Now, how many people who in eighth grade, how many young people… I’ll raise my hand and say, when I was in eighth grade, if I got knocked off of something I wanted really badly, I wasn’t going to do what Adom Appiah did.

Gary S:
Adom didn’t feel sorry for himself. He didn’t have a fit. He didn’t sulk. He didn’t blow up. He turned his attention into consoling the other kids who’d also fallen short. He reached out and helped those who also had their dreams, their young dreams crushed by that experience. And that just started a series of events in his life that has led him now at age 16, he’s the author of two books and the founder of a very successful fundraising nonprofit called Ball4Good. He’s already, at age 16, living a life of significance that is focused on building a legacy of service to others. And that is impressive at any age, superlatively impressive at 16.

Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. I mean, Adom is one of the most inspirational guests we’ve had because the amount of wisdom he has for his age, I’d say the amount of wisdom he has for any age was just mind blowing. It’s a combination of wisdom and maturity. I mean, it’s just here he is at a young age, eighth grade. This whole spelling bee thing, it wasn’t just a whim. He’d been dreaming of this for a couple of years or so. I mean, this was something. It was a goal, a dream. He was passionate about it. He worked hard. All you have to do on that spelling bee is miss one word and that’s it. Yeah, he was frustrated. It wasn’t like he didn’t feel those emotions, but it didn’t take long, as you say, for him to shift his thinking to console the other kids. I mean, what kid does that? I think he was still in middle school at that time. I guess eighth grade, he would have been. I mean, it’s just stunning.

Warwick F:
As you say, he writes two books Bouncing Back from Failure and then Kids Can Change The World. I mean, how many people do you know who have written two books before they’d even finished high school. It’s just absolutely staggering. As you say, he started this whole nonprofit Ball4Good. He’s got a lot of very wise people on the board. He’s done everything the right way to get the smartest people, but he is so mature. When you ask him, somehow the word legacy came up and I was almost embarrassed to ask him about it.

Gary S:
Right. What happened was he was talking about how his dad always had told him the importance of just doing you, it’s the way that he put it, and that what you need to do to make your legacy one you can be proud of. This is what he said about his legacy, “I just want to be able to help definitely more people than I’ve helped now.”

Adom Appiah:
My dad always tells me the importance of just doing you and doing what you need to do, what your legacy should be. And so, he’s taught me how I should listen to others, how I should take into account what everybody has to say, and then pick what I believe to be important and ingrain that in my life.

Warwick F:
Another amazing word. I don’t think I’ve heard pretty much any 16 year olds mentioned is legacy. What do you want your legacy to be? That’s something people think about on their death bed. It’s typically, “Man, I made lots of money,” or whatever happened and oops, “I neglected my family. I was so driven.” Whether it’s in any field of endeavor, business, sports, the arts, but you’re thinking about legacy right now. I mean, do you have any inklings of what you want your legacy to be? It’s probably a massive question, but since you brought up the word.

Gary S:
I bet you do. I bet you do.

Adom Appiah:
I have some broad aspirations as to… I just want to be able to help definitely more people than I’ve helped now. I want to be able to get to a point where I can consider myself a true philanthropist and be able to allow people to benefit, be able to help with the issues of the world and whatever way I can, whether that’s in leadership or in financial contributions. I just want to be able to say at the end of my life that I was able to make a difference. I was able to help.

Gary S:
For any young man who’s 16 to already have helped people at the extent Adom has helped people by getting through Ball4Good a professional basketball player, Zion Williamson, to be part of the celebrity basketball team. He wants to be able to get to a point where I can consider myself a true philanthropist. I mean, that’s amazing.

Warwick F:
It really is. I mean, not everybody thinks about legacy, but very few folks in high school think about legacy. It’s just too soon. You’re thinking about getting through high school, perhaps college.

Gary S:
Girls, boys.

Warwick F:
Yeah, a job. But I guess legacy ultimately, I guess, is defined when you’re on your deathbed, what do you want your legacy to be? He thought about that. As you say, he wants to be thought of as a philanthropist. He said that at the end of his life, he wants to be able to say that he was able to make a difference. I mean, he knows what it is. He’s not defined by how big that is. I think in not so many words you realize it’s just changing one life is enough. He just has such mature perspective. He already has a handle on what legacy means and what he wants his to be. I can’t think of anybody else his age who was that mature and that thoughtful and is even thinking about legacy, let alone have a very well thought out perspective on it. I mean, that’s why it was so amazing. His maturity and his wisdom was off the charts. It was mind blowing. It was just hard to believe.

Gary S:
For him to be able to deal with that emotional crucible of, and we discovered this with a number of guests, sometimes the most emotional, the hardest crucibles, the trials and tragedies of their lives happened very early. We have had other guests who didn’t get on the basketball team when they were growing up, and that was in eighth grade and it still haunts them. It still was an issue that they had, a sticking point that they had to get over. For that crucible that Adom went through at that age to lead him not five years down the road to realize, “Aha, I need to help people,” he realized within minutes. Rather than going back to his room at the hotel for the spelling bee and sulking, he must started helping other kids and he’s continuing to do that.

Gary S:
That is inspirational. That is a pointer to everybody who goes through a crucible of any type, particularly an emotional crucible, that you can move beyond your emotional crucible. One of the first things you can do is help others, right? What’s the best way to stop thinking about your own problems? Go focus your attention on helping somebody with their problems.

Gary S:
Another guest who as a young man, as a young boy who we had, who dealt with an extraordinarily difficult emotional crucible was Jim Daly. Jim Daly is the president of the nonprofit ministry Focus on the Family. Full disclosure, I used to work for Jim and I’m a friend of Jim’s. I used to say about the kind of man Jim Daly is, about the kind of man that Jim Daly, the kind of leader Jim Daly is. I would tell people that I would follow Jim Daly into a burning building simply because he told me to, he asked me to. I wouldn’t need to know why we were going into the burning building. I would know because I know his character, because I know his dedication to helping families. I would follow him into that building because I knew I would know that his reason for going in was a good, selfless one focused on helping others.

Gary S:
But what Jim unpacked for us when we talked to him, his emotional crucible, incredible that he leads this global nonprofit organization that helps keep families together, helps families thrive, given what his own background was like, abandoned by his alcoholic father at five, he lost his mother to cancer four years later and had no one to turn to but his four older siblings. He spent time in foster care, where he dealt with what he called unreal, a family named the Real family. Jim names them, they are the Real family, and he said they’re actually the unreal family. He went through so much loneliness and so much pain and so much dejection, and yet he pushed through it. Perhaps not in minutes like Adom did, but it took a period of time, he also found himself in a position where he wanted to help other people. And that’s what he’s doing today as the head of Focus on the Family.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, a number of people have heard of Jim Daly, the CEO of Focus on the Family that has a worldwide ministry, a faith-based that does a lot of good for families, but they don’t always know the backstory, which obviously working with him you knew, but I didn’t, and just being abandoned had an alcoholic father, mother dies of cancer. On the day of his mother’s funeral, his stepfather just walks out on him and his siblings and he was the youngest. I mean, he’s just abandoned. And then you think maybe there’s hope in foster care, and it wasn’t very good. So he had a really tough life, but somehow he didn’t let that destroy him.

Warwick F:
I think first maybe positive influence, I think was a football coach of his in high school. And that to have a positive role model in a male figure was something he hadn’t experienced. Somehow there was a turn in his life and ended up going to college and working his way up in the corporate world before the opportunity came to come to Focus on the Family, but he had about as tough an upbringing as anybody I know. It was really, really grim.

Gary S:
In our conversation, he offered, I think a great piece of advice to people who have children about if they’re going through difficult times, what do you do?

Jim Daly:
So, one piece of advice I have for people is if you’re going through difficulty as a parent, let your kids in on it in an age appropriate way. For me, I had to go from having a normal, dysfunctional family to all of a sudden learning one Saturday morning that my mom had died the night before. It wasn’t expected. I wasn’t anticipating it. I couldn’t read the signs and put it all together. So it was a jolt to me to learn that the person who was the most loving, kind person in my life, all of a sudden was gone. I didn’t even have a chance to say goodbye to her.

Gary S:
I mean, that is really good advice, isn’t it?

Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, he didn’t have a really positive role model of people doing that to him, his stepdad saying, “Hey, your mom has died. Let’s talk about this.” Not only did they not have a conversation, he just left. So it was as bad as it could be. So obviously, with his own kids, he’s being more open. There is an age appropriate way to talk about challenges you’re going through, but just not talking about challenges with your kids, it is just not helpful. I think psychologists would tell us kids want to be told something. You can’t tell them nothing. But he’s remarkable to me. One of the most remarkable things about his story is he’s not a bitter, vindictive or angry man.

Warwick F:
He could have been angry at his alcoholic dad, at his stepfather, at his foster family, but he’s not. I mean, it doesn’t mean that he condones. We talk about that quite a bit on Beyond the Crucible. Forgiveness doesn’t mean you condone poor or abhorrent behavior, but he keeps moving forward. I asked him about that and I can’t remember his exact words, but it was something that you just move forward. You don’t let that get you down. He’s somebody that I’m sure reflective, but he doesn’t reflect about all the pain. He keeps moving forward and trying to help others. He’s forward-focused, focused on helping others.

Gary S:
That was episode 13, listeners, so you can go back and you can hear it because one of the things I did, I remember now, as we talk about it, one of the things I did in that show is I drew everyone’s attention to the fact that even as he was talking about these really traumatic things, there was a joy to him about the other side of those traumatic things. In other words, he wasn’t overjoyed that his mother had passed away. He wasn’t overjoyed that he was abandoned or that he had trouble in foster care, but the lessons he learned from that and then how he applied those lessons in his life as the head of Focus on the Family, there was joy in his voice. He laughed. I mean, there are a few people I’ve met in my life, let alone worked for, who laugh as much as Jim Daly and as robustly as Jim Daly. And that’s an important thing, that authenticity of who he is, that finding the joy in the difficult moments of your life is-

Warwick F:
It is.

Gary S:
… extraordinarily important.

Warwick F:
I think for him, and we talk about this also quite a lot in Beyond the Crucible is in order to bounce back, you’ve got to have some core of beliefs, values, something inner core. For him, he’s a very strong man of faith, faith in Christ. That’s probably one of the cornerstones of him. But wherever you get it from, you’ve got to have some internal core of convictions and belief that can help fuel your path back, that can, from his perspective, help him forgive. So he’s got this joy, but there’s an anchor in his soul that fuels his joy, I guess is the point. So find your anchor, whatever that may be-

Gary S:
Right. There you go.

Warwick F:
… everybody has to find their own, but you got to have one.

Gary S:
Right. One of the big principles of crucible leadership, for sure. A couple of other guests, Warwick, that we’ve had on, again, who really struck me, who have gone through emotional crucibles, one of them was Sarah Nannen. The title that we put on Sarah’s episode was simply Lean Into Your Pain. Her story was that her husband, she was not just a military wife, but an officer and her husband was a military pilot and he died in a training accident. She went through some difficult crucibles. But again, as she talked about how she came out of those, there was joy in her voice, but it was not easy. It was kind of double crucibles for her as well, wasn’t it?

Warwick F:
It was. I mean, she had four children under six, the youngest just a few months old. When you see in the movies, you see those two military folks coming up your driveway. And as soon as she saw them, just like in the movie, she knew exactly what it was about. They were going to tell her that she is a naval officer and they were going to tell her that her husband, a fighter pilot, was killed in a training accident. Obviously, she goes through incredible grief. I mean, she loses her husband. She’s got young kids. How is she going to survive this? But she is one tough person in the best sense of that word. She is a survivor. Part of obviously, how do you move on from something like that? I mean, it takes years. But the other crucible was, as she puts it, people put her in a widow box.

Warwick F:
They expected her to be this grieving widow for the rest of her life because if she really wanted to honor her military hero pilot, she should put her life on hold and permanently grieve, permanently weep, not move on, not find another relationship. Nobody would probably ever say that to her. It was a look in their eyes. It was almost the expectations. People mean well, but she was not going to be in that widow box. So she has moved on in her life and relationships. She really has a mission to help other widows, whether it be through military widows or widows from other causes, not just be put in that box and move on. It’s not just possible that she puts it to overcome that kind of crucible. It’s possible to thrive. For some you use the T word thrive, it feels like if you’re thriving, you must not have loved your husband. May won’t say that, but people think some very bad things, unfortunately, and she refuses to accept that. She doesn’t apologize for thriving. It’s not dishonoring her husband. So she also is a true inspiration.

Gary S:
Yeah. Also inspirational, and I tend to know all of our examples here in the emotional crucible category, another friend of mine, Esther Fleece Allen. She was our first guest, the first person who we ever interviewed on Beyond the Crucible. Esther’s story, which I knew well, but still learned some things in our conversation, Esther’s story was that she had a traumatic childhood of abuse and abandonment, but she rose above that as she moved beyond the crucible. She carved out a successful career as a speaker and writer, and we actually worked together for a spell.

Gary S:
But then, the father that she feared who had abandoned her when she was young resurfaced in her life and stalked her. She realized that the successful life she’d built was a bit of a defense mechanism to avoid processing her pain. She has focused herself now to lament on those crucible experiences, to feel them completely, to, as the title of the Sarah Nannen’s episode says, lean into your pain. Esther Fleece Allen learned to lean into her pain. From that, she’s been set free of some of the pain that she experienced that led her to kind of, as she put it in her first book, to fake fine.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, Esther Fleece Allen, kind of like Sarah Nannen, she’s a fighter, she’s a survivor. I mean, truly, truly impressive. As you mentioned, abandoned by her parents. Later on, father stalked her. I mean, in high school, what’s amazing is she was raised by parents of friends at high school. She’d go from place to place, and I think she was getting straight A’s, active in high school. I mean, how is that possible? I asked her about that and says, well, I mean, she, wasn’t going to let this define her, destroy her. She’s one of these people that just, I guess they talk about fight or flight, she was absolutely on the fight side. “I’m not going to let this get me down. I’m just going for it.” But as she was doing all of that, that really led as you know better than I, her first book, No More Faking Fine.

Warwick F:
On the outside, she was seen to be this high achieving young woman. She’s going for it, getting it done. But on the inside, there’s still the pain that maybe she was pushing down. And so, she realized she needed to deal with it. I love her new book, Your New Name, which is really obviously a faith perspective, Your New Name, from her perspective faith, Your New Name, and Jesus, so to speak, but it’s almost like you’re not defined by your narrative that you grew up with. You’re not defined by the story of abandonment. You can chart your own course. You can have your own new name. So her ability to jump, to survive, but like Sarah Nannen, to thrive and deal with the pain, the emotional pain, and just have this light and this joy is also truly remarkable.

Gary S:
Hopefully, listeners, what you hear when you hear these stories of the way in which these individuals have bounced, not back from, through their crucibles. It maybe doesn’t take just a couple of minutes like it did for Adom Appiah. Sometimes it can take 30 years like it did for Michelle Kuei, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is significance at the end of the pain. And that’s what we’ve discovered through our first 49 episodes of Beyond the Crucible.

Gary S:
Another guest, Warwick, as we switch now into professional crucibles, those things that happened to us in our working life, another guest who offers that example and perspective of light at the end of the tunnel, that perspective of moving beyond things that held you down for a long period of time is Cathleen Merkel. Cathleen Merkel grew up in communist East Germany, and she was taught that her value came from doing what others expected of her, working hard, not upsetting the established order of things, but then the Berlin Wall fell and freedom came and she tentatively stepped into that in ways that weren’t always great for her.

Gary S:
She pursued professional goals and personal goals with a passion, but they didn’t satisfy her in the way that she thought they would satisfy her. She had some issues with her staffs and her bosses told her some things that we don’t like to hear from our bosses. It sent her reeling a little bit in her early professional career, and that professional setback, that professional disruption led to some challenges for her.

Warwick F:
Yeah, I found Cathleen Merkel just a remarkable woman. She’s somebody that is very driven. I mean, she grew up, as you mentioned, in communist East Germany and you think sort of German work ethic, go at it, very driven. So she was in her 20s, 30s, just working her way up the corporate ladder doing amazingly well, but it was kind of like, “I’m going to get this done no matter what.” And she was kind of walking over people. She was almost, from her perspective, being too German. She’s giving people feedback very directly, very bluntly. “This isn’t working. I need you to do this.” She had a boss say to her, “You need to tone it down a bit. People don’t like you.”

Warwick F:
Now, interestingly enough for her, her boss was a woman. So it wasn’t like, “Oh, some male boss saying to some woman, ‘Oh you need to be more nice.’ ” It was a woman telling her. Yeah. So that, she couldn’t really dismiss that. It’s just somebody that just doesn’t get it. And so she really took that to heart and there was a couple of crucibles there. One is just how she hated feeling like people were scared of her. Maybe I don’t know about didn’t like or somebody scared of her. Nobody wants people to be scared of them who works for you. That’s not good. But she realized she didn’t have a life. I think she went on a trip with some folks to Indonesia. I think it might have been Bali, I believe. And she realized she had no life. It was all work. She had no social life, no vacation. Everything was work. She came to a point in that trip when she realized she didn’t know who she was. She was just this driven workaholic, if you will.

Gary S:
Right. There was a moment in that interview, Warwick, there was a moment in that interview that it still impresses me so much about the way that you drew out of her what she was going through. It impressed her too, because she actually, at some point, I think in the interview stopped and said, “I’m going to write that down,” because some of the insights that we were discussing, she was like, “Oh, that’s good.” But she talks about the importance of having friends around her. It wasn’t just about work. So she packed herself up with friends and she let her emotions out with them and it led to an extraordinary turning point, where she said she started nourishing her body and her soul again.

Cathleen Merkel:
I started nourishing my body and my soul again. I had life coaching sessions. I had nutrition sessions, Ayurvedic, that sounded very German, Ayurvedic food and massages and all of these things, and I had a lot of meditation sessions in yoga. But the most important thing was I was surrounded by kindness, unconditional kindness, which I haven’t really received a lot or I didn’t quite know what that was. I started simply being myself. I remember when I left after three and a half weeks there, one of the guests said to me, “My goodness, it’s beautiful to see the real you.” I was literally standing there in tears because I could feel those walls we’re gone. I was just feeling so amazing about myself.

Warwick F:
So did you feel like in that moment, that for the first time you met Cathleen Merkel, that you didn’t really know who she was, so this is who I am. Who knew? Maybe I can smile. Maybe I can forgive myself if I make a mistake. It’s like, that must’ve been a strange experience to meet yourself in a sense, the real you for the first time.

Cathleen Merkel:
It was strange and beautiful. I actually got goosebumps listening to you describing me. It was just absolutely stunning. And I was crying because I was just so full of gratitude and joy about it. Suddenly it felt like a rock fell off my shoulders and it felt light and easy. And life started feeling just super easy.

Gary S:
That for me is one of the most meaningful moving exchanges we’ve had on the show.

Warwick F:
It really was because I think a lot of people are there. They work hard. They’re driven, especially in 20s, 30s, 40s, you’re working your way up. You want to get the brass ring. You want to kind of be CEO, vice president, have a good life, none of which is wrong, but she was very driven and she realized, what is this all for? It’s easy to get caught up in the kind of conditional love. Oh, maybe people will like me or love me if I’m successful and that kind of mindset. And as she was in Bali with some friends, they didn’t know the corporate Cathleen Merkel. She found, I think, as she put it, the real Cathy, and she didn’t know who that person was, she was meeting herself. And it’s like, this person can laugh. Can have friends, can have fun. And she was enjoying herself. And she realized it was okay to be Cathleen Merkel. She didn’t have to be Cathleen Merkel, the corporate success, watch out she’s coming because she might snap your head off or something.

Warwick F:
And so that really changed her whole life. And so now she coaches and trains women leaders in particular to not just be successful, but have balance. And it’s not just about, you can be successful and work your way up the corporate ladder, but you can have balance and have joy. And that’s really her mission, especially to get women leaders, not just success, but joy and balance. And so that’s a very important message. And her whole countless now it’s full of joy. She’s a very joyful person. Yeah. She works hard. She is driven, but she’s joyful. And that’s an important message I think for all of us.

Gary S:
And it’s also the story, interestingly enough, of another guest who had a much different kind of professional crucible, and that’s of the things I love about Beyond the Crucible in general, and about us taking time here for a 50th episode, to revisit some of the themes and some of the guests and some of the insights that they have, because there is no matter how different someone’s crucibles are in detail, in execution the way they’ve affected you, how you react to them and then how you overcome them. There’s so much similarity across those lines.

Gary S:
And the guest I’m speaking of in this case is Whitney Singletary-White, episode 42 listener, if you want to check that one out. Whitney’s story just fascinated me. I found Whitney, I did a Google search, I think, for a professional setback or something like that, her name popped up in a story that was in the newspaper in Berkeley, California. And Whitney at age three, she baked her first batch of cookies and she laughed as she told the story on the podcast, she uses as one of her secret ingredients, mud. And her grandfather was so encouraging, he ate it and said, “Yeah, that was pretty good. It’d be even better if there wasn’t any mud in it, but good for you.”

Gary S:
And that led her down the road to want to have a bakery. And she worked hard to make that happen to the point that she developed her own kind of cookies. Her business is called Nuttin’ Butter Cookies. And that’s because there’s nuts. They’re all nut-based cookies. And she talks in the show about all these different exotic kind of nuts. And neither one of us ever heard of. And it was great, but her professional crucible came when first, she got assaulted while she was baking from her home in her apartment, then that got resolved and she got a storefront and she was finally stepping out. She was doing it, but it was early 2020, the spring of 2020. And we all know what happened. Then COVID-19 hit and she had to shut down, and that led her to begin selling her cookies out of her driveway. And the pluck that she demonstrated there was just amazing to me and the spirit, boy, she’s a formidable person for sure. Isn’t she?

Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, Whitney Singletary-White is also an inspiration. I mean, she grew up in Bakersfield, California, I guess it’s pretty hot. And she pretty much said there’s not a whole lot to see you there. And she now lives in Berkeley and that story with her grandpa, that was just so amazing. I mean, it’s interesting as she’s part of a life with a mom with two small kids, a single mom, and she just had this dream of cookies and of just every kind of nut cookie you can imagine. And she said many of the nuts we’d never heard of. I think obviously, pecan, sesame haven’t really had sesame cookies before, but she just had this dream and she wasn’t going to give up. She also was very resilient. She finally gets a store in Berkeley and then COVID hits.

Warwick F:
And not only do they have to close, I think the landlord didn’t want to let her out of the lease, which is… And then he says, what can I do for you? Well, how about letting me out of my lease?

Gary S:
How about being a human being, and let me out of my lease-

Warwick F:
Yeah. Which I’m not quite sure that ever got worked out. So then she’s got to go back try to sell cookies in her apartment building. And as you mentioned, she ends up getting beaten up from, I think, the people across the road and aided by some of the folks in her apartment building, badly beaten up. And then if things aren’t any worse at some point during all of this, she gets a flu injection that was not done well. And her arm was out of action for a long time. You can’t bake without two arms. So she’s had a lot of stuff, but yet, like some of our guests, she just has this grit. She does not give up. She has this ability to overcome.

Gary S:
Right. And she said of all of the succinct expressions of what it takes to move beyond a crucible, of all the people who’ve said some things that are great takeaways for listeners to grab onto and hope through in their own crucibles. She said something that toward the end of that show Warwick that was just so on-point, and so honest and transparent and real when she said that, “Help can come from the most unexpected place.”

Whitney Singletary-White:
Help comes in the most unexpected places when you least expect it, at that moment when you feel that you really can’t go on, there is always going to be that one person that you wouldn’t expect to do it we’ll reach out and help you. And I find that you can’t really fail if you don’t keep trying, because once you give up, you failed, you’re done that’s over. But if your you’re like, “I still got it, I could still make it.” You could still get that little bit in there. You can still push through just enough. It’s hard. It hurts. But once you get past that moment, you can sit back and go, I made it. I overcome that. I’m no longer feeling that pain anymore. I’m finally where I need to be. You could get yourself out of it. We got to pull ourselves out of the mud sometimes and dust off the mud, we’ll walk through was drying on and cracked up in those pants and flake it off and get going, was just sometimes you just have to do it.

Warwick F:
It is remarkable when you’re really going for it, and you’re not letting things get you down is amazing. In the era of COVID, there was limitations on how much you can get from the store. Well she bakes cookies. So she needs a whole bunch of flour, eggs, butter, the whole deal when they were rationed. But she had a bunch of friends saying, “Look, I can get some extra, I can afford to get you a little bit of extra, and I’ll just drop it off.” And all these people came out of the woodwork trying to help her.

Gary S:
Right. It’s like at the end of it, It’s a Wonderful Life, when everybody shows up and gives George Bailey…

Warwick F:
Yeah, exactly. But her attitude is really remarkable. She has this phrase in which she says, “You can’t really fail if you just keep trying, if you don’t give up.” So she never gives up. And that’s how she defines not failing is just keep trying. And there were times when it was bad, when she was really hurt, and injured, from being beaten up and her two little kids said, “It’s okay, Mommy, don’t give up.” And I guess, she must have told the kids that a fair amount. And her ability in some very difficult circumstances just to keep going is just remarkable. She’s even won over the local fire department and-

Gary S:
And the police department.

Warwick F:
Police department. I mean, they love her cookies so much as she puts it, she has free security. Just come by and says, “Hey, Whitney. Everything okay. Do you need anything?” It’s like-

Gary S:
The police department has traded donuts for her cookies. Absolutely.

Warwick F:
Oh, yeah. Nobody’s going to mess with her. They kind of know that she has friends in the right places. So truly remarkable woman.

Gary S:
And as we round out having discussions about the crucible guests that we’ve had on, a couple other folks that we’ve talked to over the last year plus, who experienced professional crucibles come to mind for me, one of them, Tommy Breedlove. Tommy Breedlove is a really, talk about a go-getter, here’s another go-getter. He had some crucible moments, physical and emotional violence when he was young. But he moved beyond that and he was killing it in corporate America. He was the guy with the gold cufflinks, I think he says, or platinum or whatever, precious metal they were made out of. And he wasn’t just on the fast track. He was ahead of other people on the fast track. And yet, while his career was skyrocketing, his personal life wasn’t doing as well. And he found himself one night, didn’t know how he got there, but he was lying in a ditch in his native Atlanta. And he was trying to figure out how he got there both physically and circumstantially. How did he end up there? And the way that he came back was through what he calls, learning how to live a legendary life.

Warwick F:
Yeah. Tommy Breedlove is also a remarkable person. I mean, he grew up in a blue collar neighborhood in Atlanta. It was not the easiest neighborhood. Now, looks at himself that he was a bully when he was a young age, which that’s a hard thing to live with. Nobody wants to be a bully, at least not when they’ve had some more perspective. He ends up getting in prison. And somehow he bounces back from that. It was one individual, I think an African-American older man in prison, that just kind of helped inspire him. And so he works at this financial services firm and you’re right. As you say, he was killing it. He was doing really well.

Warwick F:
But he got to a point where it’s like, is this all there is? And he told his boss, “Look, I’m going to resign.” And he said, “You’re nuts. You’re going to make a staggering amount of money an enormous amount of money. Do you know how much you’re giving up?” And he did. And he basically said, “My soul is not for sale.” And he realized that there’s more to life than just success. He believes in success. That from his perspective, a legendary life is more about living a life on purpose, thinking of others, balance, self love as he puts it, which is really taking care of yourself. And that’s been a challenge for Tommy just because of how he grew up with, you can get into the scenario where many are, oh, if I’m successful, then maybe not only will other people love me. Maybe I can love myself. And somehow they feel like being successful, which it never really solves. Never really helps that.

Warwick F:
But he has a more balanced life, he genuinely loves himself. And the healthy sense of that word, he speaks. He’s written a book, Legendary. He has true friends. He has an inner counsel, if you will, to help him stay on the right track. And he has a good life, a life on purpose, a legendary life. But yeah, he is an inspiration for those who were just going flat out in the corporate world, you can be successful, but you can be more than successful as we say, you can be having a life on purpose, a life of significance.

Gary S:
Yeah. And it’s interesting that so many people that we’ve had on the show have asked various forms of that question that you pointed out to Tommy asked, and that is, is this all there is? So many people have achieved some goal, dream, whatever it was, but it wasn’t as fulfilling as they maybe thought it was. I remember one guest, I forget who it was now. It might’ve been Cathleen Merkel where I said, “You reach for the brass ring and you realize it’s lead.” And we’ve had folks who have experienced that in a variety of different ways. And that’s, I think, a resonant point that a lot of us can identify with. Is that what we think we want once we get it, or isn’t exactly what we want. And sometimes the crucible can be “Success itself.”

Warwick F:
There’s the parable, if you will, of the anthill, where all these ants are kind of crawling up all over themselves and the anthill to reach the top. And one ant says to the other ant, “What’s up there?” I don’t know, but everybody else has going for it. So it must be good. And it’s only once you reach the top, it’s like, is this all there is, but on the way up, you just crawling all over yourself and all over others. Success is fine, but success in it of itself, which is a big theme of Beyond the Crucible and Crucible Leadership doesn’t satisfy. So certainly he is a testament to that.

Gary S:
And the last professional crucible that we’ll go over here is Robert Krantz. Bob Krantz is a Hollywood filmmaker, actor, producer, writer. He is sort of like Alan Alda, if you remember when you watched the old mash episodes, Alan Alda did everything. He acted, he wrote, produced, directed. Bob Krantz does that. And he just a year ago produced a film called Faith, Hope & Love. It’s a dancing movie with a woman whose name I can’t pronounce. I believe her first name is Peta. I believe isn’t she Australian as well.

Warwick F:
She is, of course. We try to get Australians into every episode if we can.

Gary S:
I think that’s fabulous. I did not realize that. We need to do it. Episode 51, will be about all of the Australians we’ve had on the show. But Bob Krantz did this movie Faith, Hope & Love. And I remember I was so impressed by it that I reached out to him to be on the show because his character in the movie and its semi-autobiographical, the movie, his character in the movie goes through some crucibles. And I figured out, Bob Krantz must have some crucibles and indeed he did. But what I remember about that Warwick is I sent you a copy of the film, where I arranged for him to send you a link to the film. And you told the story. I mean, tell folks how your entire family, which is hard to do for an entire family, but they all loved it. Right?

Warwick F:
They did. And yeah, I mean, I have two boys and a girl in their 20s and it’s hard to find… The boys like action movies, my daughter more comedy, romantic comedies, my tastes are pretty broad. Don’t like horror, but anything else I’m pretty much good for, my wife has pretty broad tastes, but there was a message of faith. There was dancing. It made you laugh. There was a story of redemption. I mean, it had everything in there. You laughed, you cried. It had everything in there. It was very inspirational. It was a terrific movie. And Netflix picked it up. I don’t know, it was something at one point it was on the trending movies on Netflix or most popular. And it’s really a terrific movie.

Gary S:
And his story, his professional crucible was early in his career as a hyphenate, as a Hollywood hyphenate, writer, director, actor, producer. He wrote a film, again, it was a semi-autobiographical film and it was to his mind and to the people that he showed it to in his circle, it was a fabulous movie. He had the backing of some names in Hollywood and he’s all set up for a screening with some studio executives, which is the motherlode in Hollywood. I worked in Hollywood. It’s the motherlode of Hollywood to get studio execs, to come to your screening and to see your movie. And while he’s doing that, something happens that’s extremely crucible-esque, what happened?

Warwick F:
The project stopped. I think the bulb blew-

Gary S:
The bulb.

Warwick F:
I think he might have even asked the folks, okay, so you got spare bulb. He might’ve even done that in advance. So yeah, we’re covered. We know we’re doing, and of course, they didn’t have a spare. It was horrendous.

Gary S:
Yeah. And what happened when that crucible hit, his movie did not get picked up for distribution. And that led him that, and a personal crucible involving a dangerous pregnancy that his wife who had triplets a very touch and go pregnancy that his wife had, the combination of those two things. His wife did indeed have the triplets. And Bob decided the professional crucible made it somewhat easier to make that decision to stay and make sure he was present because he almost lost those three children. He wanted to be present with them and he didn’t make a movie for about a decade. So his professional crucible, which began when the bulb burned out, undone by a bulb, then some personal crucibles hit. He didn’t make a movie. Faith, Hope & Love was his first movie in 10 years. That again, is a story of sticking with it, having perseverance and pursuing your vision in spite of what life might throw at you in between.

Warwick F:
And it’s also another story of just kind of anchoring your vision in your values. He also is a person of faith. And for him, I think I remember him almost having this proverbial conversation with God is like, if my kids survive, I’m going to be present. It was almost like a conscious decision.

Gary S:
That’s right.

Warwick F:
And he did, now, he’s a driven guy. And as you know better than I, in Hollywood, if you’re going to make a movie, it’s pedal to the metal, there’s not a whole lot of spare time, you’re at it. And so he probably would not have been present. So for somebody in Hollywood that loves making movies to take 10 years off from making movies to sacrifice them for his kids is remarkable. I think they’re either in college maybe out of college by now, but he has a great relationship with them because he was present.

Warwick F:
Another message is you can’t sacrifice your soul. It’s sort of like that song I often think of by Cat Stevens, Cats in the Cradle. You don’t want to be that person when it’s like, “Oh yeah, I’ll be there soon, son.” I mean, you don’t get those years back. And so he made a choice and if you have a belief in the almighty, I feel like somebody up there, honored that, because Faith, Hope & Love is a great movie. And I think he’s doing pretty well considering what he’s been through, but that was a conscious choice. I’m not going to sacrifice my family. And it was a miracle that he had those three kids, the doctors multiple times said to his wife, “You’ve got to terminate this because your life’s in danger,” countless times she said, “I’m not doing that.” That was her choice. I’m not doing that. And so he was going to honor his wife and honor his family, and he was not going to sacrifice them for some career goal.

Gary S:
Right. And his life of significance has become those three boys. And now producing quality values, laden entertainment, that is not just for the choir. It’s not just for the Christian choir. As you pointed out, not only was that movie Faith, Hope & Love on Netflix and did well, but he signed a two-year deal with Netflix to produce more content. So that is how overcoming moving beyond his crucible, he’s led him to a life of significance.

Gary S:
I love what we’re going to talk about next Warwick. And I haven’t told you why I love it, because I just realized why I love it. Why I love it. We’re going to move now listeners into the perspective guests that we’ve had on the show in our first 49 episodes, as we continue our discussion in our 50th episode of some of the highlights of Beyond the Crucible. The two folks who we’re really going to spotlight here actually represent, I think, the things that you and I sort of love the most or really like the most in pursuits. We have one guest, right? Jeff Kemp, who’s a former NFL quarterback and I’m an enormous football fan. And we have another guest, Nancy Koehn, who’s a professor at Harvard Business School, which not only you graduated from, but she’s a historian who writes about leadership and you love history and leadership.

Warwick F:
Absolutely.

Gary S:
So this should be a really fun one for us to go through. Jeff Kemp, interesting guy in that, Jeff Kemp is a second generation NFL quarterback. He was a second generation NFL quarterback. His dad was Jack Kemp. Jack Kemp was a superstar in the old AFL, the American Football League. He was a MVP of that league for the Buffalo Bills. He won an AFL championship. He was All-Pro, the AFL’s version of whatever All-Pro, all-star team was at the time. He was distinguished as an NFL quarterback. His son, Jeff goes to Dartmouth, gets out, does not have the same story about his NFL career. Jeff Kemp does have an NFL career, but it does not match the distinguished career that his dad had on the field. Adding to what could have been pressure on Jeff Kemp is that his dad Jack, listeners may remember of a certain vintage, listeners may remember that his dad, Jack Kemp, was a congressman from New York for a long time, was the first President Bush’s, Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, I believe.

Gary S:
And then after that, Bob Dole’s running mate for the presidency and the race against Bill Clinton and they lost, but he was a presidential candidate who debated Al Gore back in the early ’90s. So your father is someone who’s accomplished all this on the football field. You go into football. And then when he gets out of football, he accomplishes all of this other stuff. Jeff Kemp ended up as an NFL quarterback to be more of what some would call a journeyman. And then he played for a number of different teams. He was never… In his 20 years from his early days of playing as a young man to when he left the NFL, of those 20 years, he was only a starter at the start of the season one time, he says in our episodes.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, Jeff Kemp is an interesting guy. It’s funny, I grew up in Australia, obviously didn’t play American football, but I could relate to him in the sense that as listeners know, I grew up in a prominent family. My dad was knighted in fact, my father, grandfather, great-grandfather, all were knighted in their own right. My dad has the same name as me. He was Sir Warwick, the company was a great mess. He had generations of very prominent people that accomplished a lot and who admire, not just… Yeah, they were wealthy, but they were admired for who they were and what they did.

Warwick F:
So I could relate in a sense. And as you point out, football star that his dad was. Congressman from, you mentioned Buffalo, New York, housing and urban development secretary under George H. W. Bush. Running mate with Dole, ran for president in ’88, the guy was driven. And just to make matters, almost worse for poor Jeff, everybody liked Jack Kemp. He was a good guy. He was driven people on both sides of the aisle. They liked him, they admired him. The guy had a heart, he cared. He was a good and great man in the best sense of that word. And he never purposely tried to push his kids, we talked about being a Kemp, and that had some sort of iconic meaning. And he was almost overzealous in his support. And just a message for parents, don’t overdo the cheerleading because he’d be like, “Hey Jeff, you did great.” But Dad, I sat on the bench of that NFL game, I did nothing, but you did it well. Okay. What’s that mean? Sitting on the bench.

Gary S:
And you look great in warmups.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean really? So he kept cheering him. And so he didn’t intentionally try to pressure his son, but obviously, his son doesn’t have nearly the football career that his dad did and eventually, his run ends and that was sort of depressing that he was let go. And that was a tough thing to come back from. And he’s written this book, Facing the Blitz, which similar to, in one sense, facing crucibles. And he talks about how blitzes they don’t have to kind of define you. And it’s very a interesting how his whole concept there.

Gary S:
Yeah. And one of the things about Jeff Kemp that was interesting is that all of the things that we talked about not “Measuring up in the eyes of some people to his dad,” those could be really crucible experiences for people, but he didn’t really take those as deep crucibles. His dad never put pressure on himself. He puts some pressure on himself, he said, but he got through that. And he learned this idea of combating the blitz, which in football is when the entire defense runs after the quarterback and tries to bury him. That’s what crucibles feel like. And it was fascinating to hear you both talk about that. But we brought Jeff on because his perspective that he expresses in that book, Facing the Blitz, is really something that all listeners can get some great insight and inspiration from.

Jeff Kemp:
Every person out there has been blitzed. They’ve been cut. They’ve been rejected. They went to junior high. They know what it’s like to be on the losing end of that conditional performance-based value system, making fun of your pimples or your size or your voice, or whatever. Everyone goes through crucibles. I want to remind people. You want to remind people. Gary wants to remind people. You are not alone. Others have been in it before. And the worst thing you can do is hide your emotions from other people, hide your pain, drowned it, and self-medicate it, or pretend it didn’t happen. The worst thing you can do is say, “I’m a victim. It’s all about other people.” Because you’ll never grow, if you don’t look at what your part in it was, which it wasn’t, I’m the worst guy in the world. I deserved to be benched or I deserve to have cartoons against me.

Jeff Kemp:
No, but you know what? There’s lessons that I learned. And you have to accept your own personal responsibility. Maybe it was a divorce you went through, even thinking it was 90% her, your math is probably off, okay. Maybe you were cut or sacked or benched, or fired by some company. And you think that was the worst manager or worst CEO ever. Maybe they weren’t that perfect, but there might be something you can learn-

Warwick F:
Absolutely.

Jeff Kemp:
So what I’m saying is embrace the crucible, embrace the blitz, get honest with God and honest with other people about it and learn everything you can about yourself, and what life is truly about, because your life is not about your win-loss record, your statistics, your bank accounts, the applause of the world, how many Twitter followers you have, that is pretty much a bunch of BS. And it’ll take you down a wrong road. You’ll lose your identity, living for image and living to gain and earn your identity is a very losing equation.

Warwick F:
Yeah, it’s really remarkable. I mean, you don’t think of embrace the blitz or embrace your crucible. I mean, who thinks that way, but I mean, in football terms, which I have lived here long enough to understand something about it, but you would know more, but you might have a play in your mind. And then you see all these people lined up and you can see the blitz is coming while that play clearly, probably won’t work. So you need to change the play and be adaptive. And so he uses that as a metaphor for life that you might get blitzed. And maybe his dream was to be an NFL star quarterback, Joe Montana or somebody like that who he actually played on the 49ers at one point, and quarterback when Joe was injured. Well, he’s not going to be in the Hall of Fame like Joe Montana, but he changed, his vision is now different.

Warwick F:
Obviously, it’s an author speaker. He spends a lot of time as a person of faith, and working with families and parents and men, just in terms of how you face blitzes, how you overcome them, how you be good parents. So he has a passion for what he does now. And so his vision has really changed from just being an NFL quarterback. He has his own vision, and he’s also somebody with tremendous joy. And you don’t feel like those expectations are on him anymore, you feel like he’s at peace with who he is, what he achieved and what he didn’t achieve.

Warwick F:
I mean, it is somewhat in the same vein, I’ve had to come to peace with, I didn’t have a successful stint in my career in media. I wasn’t the all-star media person. That’s not my legacy. My Wikipedia entry is not particularly good. Young man could have had it all blew it. It’s almost like the journeyman quarterback thing, maybe worse, I don’t know. But certainly, it’s not like the all-star, but you have to come to peace with that. That’s okay. I have a good life. I love what I do now with Crucible Leadership. So that’s a huge lesson for folks is maybe that initial dream didn’t work out, but that’s okay. There can be another vision that may even fit better. And so he is inspirational in his own way.

Gary S:
Absolutely. Our next discussion guest, the next person we’re going to talk about, from a perspective perspective… That’s fun to say: a perspective perspective, is Nancy Koehn , and this one, Warwick, I’m not going to put you on the spot. I’ll just put it out rhetorically. If I had to sort of say, who is the guest that Warwick was most excited to interview, I would tell people if people asked me that, that professor Nancy Koehn would have been that person and we actually… That conversation was so good. It was so engrossing, so riveting, so detailed that it actually took… It was a two-part episode, but Warwick, you know this far better than I do. She’s a Harvard Business School Professor. You’re a Harvard Business School graduate, so tell folks a little bit about Nancy and why we had her on.

Warwick F:
Nancy Koehn, as you mentioned, she’s a Harvard Business School Professor, but she’s a historian. And what she does is talk about historical leaders in a way that’s relevant to MBA students today. So if you will, what lessons do current leaders in a corporate or nonprofit world, what can they learn from historical leaders? And so, she wrote this incredible book, Forged in Crisis, in which she talks about a number of leaders, Ernest Shackleton, Abraham Lincoln, former U.S. President, Frederick Douglas, also lived around the time of Lincoln, the great African-American abolitionist. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was a German Lutheran pastor that opposed Hitler and was executed for his opposition. Rachel Carson, who founded the modern environmental movement and fought against DDT and those sorts of very harmful chemical sprays, but what’s interesting is Shackleton, he’s somebody that was this polar explorer in the first couple decades of the 1900s. It was like the space race. Everybody wanted to be the first to get to the North Pole, South Pole, do it for king and country, a number of different countries, Norway, U.S., and England.

Warwick F:
So here’s Ernest Shackleton and he wanted to lead the first expedition to go across Antarctica. So he leaves at around about 1915 or thereabouts, and he’s all for king and country, and he’s somewhere in Southern Argentina, nearest place to go to the Antarctica and all the weather reports say icebergs, ice floes are as bad as you’ve ever seen, like forever. Going now would be suicide, but because he’s so driven, so anxious for glory, frankly, he goes, when all the advice says, this is madness. And of course, what happens, his ship gets trapped in ice and they’re there for months and months, and there’s no radio. This is like 1915. So he has to combat the thought that my crew is probably going to die and it’s my fault because I was so impetuous in glory hunting that I left when everybody told me not to. And his story is so remarkable because he’s able to really push that behind him and move ahead. So that’s a pretty tough crucible when your team may die because you were stupid and impetuous in glory hunting. That’s a tough thing to deal with.

Gary S:
Nancy Koehn does a remarkable job in Forged In Crisis in talking about the crucible itself and then the lessons of what came out of the crucible. It’s a two-part episode. At the end of the second part of that episode, you summed it up with her and asked her a question to say, What are the two or three things that Shackleton did? Because not all of the people who listen, and I would say not many of the people who listen to our show are going to circumnavigate Antarctica. So, what are the takeaways for people who go through crucibles that Shackleton’s life reveals?

Warwick F:
What are the two or three things, why Shackleton holds so many lessons for CEOs, leaders of nonprofits, leaders in the COVID-19 crisis that we’re all going through, corporate leaders, governmental leaders, when everything is so uncertain, what are the key nuggets, would you say, that we need to learn about Shackleton?

Nancy Koehn:
Well, just to present them in uncharacteristically succinct form, you have to step into the fear. You take this step. Courage is not the absence of fear, as Mandela said, it’s the willingness to walk into the fear. Square your shoulders and tighten your core and realize you are still standing and can take the next step. And then other people behind you can take the first step. So step into the fear, feed and water yourself, and your people carefully, both emotionally and physically and mentally. Keep your fingers tightly on the pulse of the morale of the people around you. Learn forward, face forward and learn. Let go of what was and what didn’t work in the past, learn from it, and then move forward, especially in crucibles and crises. There’s just too much at stake to spend a lot of time rehashing the past.

Nancy Koehn:
I said on a Charlie Rose interview I did several years ago when my book came in, I said, “I learned and Shackleton learned that why is never the question. Why me? Why this? Why the suffering? Why the calamity? Why the failures? It’s never why, it’s what can I make in this wreckage, and how can I redeem, reclaim, and just as a crucible, it’s about high flames, literally, and its ability to reshape things. How can I be forged into something better and stronger and more committed to service?”

Warwick F:
Yeah, well said. Really, the first thing was okay, we’re here. I blew it. I was an idiot. I have some experience with that thought of, I blew it, I was an idiot, with the take over. Fortunately, I didn’t almost kill people, but he moved on because he realized his mission changed. His mission was then, I’m going to bring my crew back alive. I’m not going to lose anybody. Now, the chances of him bringing his crew back alive was like one in a million or one in a billion. It was a really, really tough goal, but he was determined. He made sure he rationed food. He kept morale up. He gave everybody jobs. He was very focused on their emotional wellbeing. He laughed with them. He was very thoughtful and resolute. But as you said, he stepped, as Nancy said very well, he stepped into the fear. He didn’t avoid it. He was courageous. He thought through things and he didn’t dwell in the past. He didn’t dwell on why did we get, he moved forward. The mission has changed. I’m not going to cross Antarctica. That mission is dead and that was a huge mission for him. That was a vision, a dream he was passionate about. Okay, that’s gone. That’s over. My new mission is to keep my team alive and I will do everything I can to make that happen, and because of his resoluteness and perseverance, he got all his crew back.

Warwick F:
What is remarkable about his story? This is all happening in the middle of World War I, somewhere around 1919, 1920, when the war was over, some sadly were lost in World War I because weeks after they got back to England, one of them joined up and was killed. These are patriotic folks, but a bunch of them, when he said, “I’m going to get back to Antarctica.” They said, as they called him boss, “I’m signing up, boss.” What kind of leader, when he almost kills people, they survive, say I’m going back with you to the scene of the crime. That’s almost insanity, but it shows how much they almost worshiped him and what a leader he was, a truly remarkable man.

Gary S:
And a couple of other guests we’ve had in the perspective area of shows and as long as we’re at Harvard, let’s stay there.

Warwick F:
Indeed. Indeed.

Gary S:
There’s a couple more Harvard folks. One of them that we talked to for a perspective episode was Joseph Badaracco, who wrote a couple of books that really speak to some important ways to deal with, move beyond crucibles. Talk a little bit about why Joseph Badaracco was an interesting guest for us.

Warwick F:
He has a recent book, Step Back, which really talks about how important it is to reflect, which in the busy life that we live, so many leaders and their all connected to phones, emails, constant messaging, there’s so much going on that people don’t take time to reflect. And if you’re just like some Energizer Bunny that’s always acting and not reflecting, you probably won’t make good decisions. Action is important, so is reflection. It’s almost like the lost art of reflection, but the book that really intrigued me was his earlier book from almost 20 years ago called, Leading Quietly. And I remember reading an article about it and then I read the book, and what was amazing is, a lot of us, including me, we grew up with the heroic leadership model. Winston Churchill, Abraham Lincoln or superheroes and movies, and great men, great women doing incredible things.

Warwick F:
He’s written a book about a whole bunch of folks in let’s say, middle management, that we never would have heard of, just taking those quiet day-to-day steps to make a difference, even though you’ll never read about them in Businessweek. And that was haunting for me because I grew up wanting to be… Maybe not wanting to be, but thinking, okay, I can be the savior of the family business, bring it back to the ideals of the founder, have it be well-run, be like this crusader or Charge Of The Light Brigade thing and Crimean War in the 1850s, a whole other story, but sort of this hero type, and I realized that heroic model of leadership is often dangerous, treacherous, and is often not helpful. So his model of leadership is different and I found that very compelling, convicting, haunting even.

Gary S:
Yeah, and the idea of the importance of reflection, one of the things that struck me before we talked to him is you really can’t… We’ve talked a lot here and on the podcast, we talk a lot about the importance of learning the lessons of your crucible. What’s in there that you can learn and apply to moving forward beyond the crucible? And there’s really no way to learn the lessons of your crucible if you don’t reflect on them.

Warwick F:
Absolutely, and one of the things he talks about is the difference between ruminating and reflecting. And I’d never heard about this. I never thought about it. Ruminating is, oh my gosh, I’m an idiot. Why did I do that? I’ve spent some time ruminating. I fully understand the concept of rumination, but reflecting is like, okay, I was an idiot or maybe that wasn’t fair or that was awful, but what can I learn from it? What lessons can I learn? How do we move forward? And in general, as we’re trying to build our vision and make it reality, where am I do I have the right team? What lessons do I need to learn? What’s the next step? You got to reflect and act. It’s a cycle. And what he talks about is you can take, maybe it’s on the way to work, maybe it’s while you’re working out. We all have times, if we really think about, where we can consciously say, “Okay, I’m going to use this time to reflect” So yeah, very profound stuff from him.

Gary S:
We’ll move from Harvard Business School Professor Joseph Badaracco to Harvard Negotiation Project Lecturer and Harvard Law School Lecturer, Sheila Heen, another prospective guest who talked about another thing that it seems to me is not possible to move beyond your crucible, unless you do this, unless you’re willing to do this. And that is have difficult conversations. You really can’t, as a leader in particular, as a leader who is facing a crucible experience and trying to move past it, move beyond it, you’re going to have to engage in some difficult conversations, aren’t you?

Warwick F:
Absolutely. She has two interesting books. There was the one that she co-wrote, Difficult Conversations, and then she has another one, which is, Thanks for the Feedback. Thanks for the Feedback is intriguing because so often, we’re taught by HR and other folks, okay, how do you give feedback well, but she was talking about how do you receive feedback well? Even if it’s not particularly well given. That was a fascinating discussion, but really this whole notion of difficult conversations, many folks avoid it, whether it’s your boss or people at work, and if they do it, it will often be done really poorly, like yelling and screaming is not a good way to have a difficult conversation. You will almost certainly won’t be heard. I don’t know if it’ll make you feel good or not, but it will accomplish pretty much nothing with almost a hundred percent certainty, guaranteed.

Warwick F:
She talks about really, three paradigms, what happened, the feelings conversation, the identity conversation. We can always argue about, well, it was your fault. That was my fault. And you can debate about what happened. You can get into this whole intellectual debate. You’re almost having a court case. You can go there, but really what she focuses on, focus on the feelings, make sure the other person feels heard. I hear what you’re saying. Obviously that was devastating to you. It doesn’t mean to say that you agree with what they’re saying, but you acknowledge the feelings and realize, well, maybe part of it, they have a sense of identity that’s wrapped up in their position, so her whole notion of how to have a difficult conversation well, it is so good. Well worth listening to the episode and reading her book, Difficult Conversations. Great stuff.

Gary S:
Well, that brings us and I’ve been waiting all show to say this. That brings us to the moment where I can see the fasten seatbelt lights come on. The gather up your peanut bags, we’re getting to the point it’s almost time to land the plane, but we’ve got one more section before the plane touches down. We’ve got one more section to go through, and it really is, I see it as the bookends to our conversation. And that is episodes that we’ve had in our first 49, this being our 50th, it’s conversations between me and you. It’s conversations about some of the key principles of crucible leadership, and what I like about what we chose is the two we’re going to focus on, as they really are the bookends, from my perspective, on what crucible leadership’s all about.

Gary S:
The first one we’ll talk about was an episode on perseverance fatigue and the idea there, Warwick, is that if you’re going to get through a crucible, you got to have perseverance. What we’ll talk about after that, after we talk about perseverance fatigue is, we’ll talk about one of our first episodes, episode four, which was about significance over success. And I end every episode talking about how crucibles aren’t the end of your story, they’re the start of a story. It can be a most rewarding story because it leads at the end, if you learn the lessons of your crucible, to a life of significance. So this is truly a great place to land the plane, but let’s talk first about this idea of perseverance fatigue. You say something in that episode that even when it feels overwhelming and there’s no-

Warwick F:
Even when life can feel overwhelming and there’s no hope, just take that one small step. It could be apply for that next position, even when you think it’s hopeless. Have that one more networking call. In J. K. Rowling’s case, send out one more manuscript to one more publisher. Whatever the positive step is, no matter how small each day, try to take one small step. That could be journaling about the kind of position you would like to get, but it’s the importance of taking one small step at a time each day, each week. That is probably the foundation of getting out of a bottomless pit, even when that small step can seem like, well, even if it happens, so what?

Gary S:
Why is taking one small step so important to getting beyond your crucible?

Warwick F:
Yeah. There are times in which you’ve been through a crucible and maybe you’re in the middle of it and you can feel like you’re in the bottom of the pit. There’s no light at the end of the tunnel. If there is, it’s another train gonna hit you. Things seem grim. There seems no hope. And so, it can seem like, well, what’s the point of taking one small step? I need to take a gigantic leap, but one small step, so what? I’ll still be at the bottom of the pit, but really one small step can lead to another small step. It could be, maybe you were fired. It could be, okay, well, what other jobs can I take just thinking about that? Maybe you’re dealing with a family illness, maybe going to have a walk with a friend just to get your mind off things, and just recharge the batteries a bit.

Warwick F:
Those are all really important. So the power of one small step is, it doesn’t seem much, but one small step can lead to another, and pretty soon there’s a flywheel, whether it’s bringing a vision to reality, getting through a crucible. The power of one small step cannot be underestimated to just help you move in a positive direction. Sitting and ruminating and saying, “Oh, woe is me.” That’s not really going to get you anywhere. Taking one small positive step, no matter how small, that is a step to getting out of the bottom of the pit, and that is a step towards having hope.

Gary S:
Yeah, and I think if we went back and we went through all of our guests, let alone all the guests we’ve talked about today, and we looked at their stories of bouncing back from their crucibles, moving beyond their crucibles, we would find a one small step that they took. We would find, I think that’s probably true of everyone.

Warwick F:
Oh, I’m sure it is. Maybe with Ernest Shackleton, it’s like, okay, here we are, we’re stuck in the ice. Well, let’s get the crew off and let’s get them in tents. I think one time, he had some strange game, animal, vegetable, mineral, some weird game to make people laugh, a little like charades or whatever. Well, that doesn’t seem like a big step. Let’s have a game. How’s that going to get his crew rescued? It’s not, but it’s going to take their minds off things for maybe half an hour or an hour. It’s a small step, but it’s an important small step.

Gary S:
And what ends up with small steps, you put them together like a puzzle. You put one foot in front of the other as the Christmas special so resoundingly says. If you put one foot in front of the other, soon you’ll be walking out the door and soon you’ll be getting through your crucible. Soon you’ll be on the other side.

Warwick F:
Soon you’ll be helping to have your vision become reality. One small step.

Gary S:
And what that is, the other side of the door, when you get through the door, your vision becoming a reality. The goal that we talk about, the goal that you talk about and have talked about at Crucible Leadership since the outset, even before this podcast existed, the goal that we’re after is a life of significance.

Warwick F:
The first step is to leading a life of significance is understand what your fundamental beliefs and values are.

Gary S:
And that is a critical point for listeners to understand because you said it just now. A life of significance is individual. Your life of significance is rooted in who you are. It’s not what society deems necessary to do. It’s what you, what your vision and what your values and beliefs inform you to want to accomplish.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, that’s really the key first step is just, well, it’s a couple of things in leading a life of significance. You’ve got to understand your fundamental beliefs and values, and that’s what we often talk about in crucible leadership. You want to understand how you’re wired, how you’re designed. We’re all wired a different way. And again, we’ve talked extensively on this, but basically to lead a life of significance, you want to feel like you’re using the skills and abilities that I would say you’d been divinely given for a purpose that you feel off the charts passionate about that’s in line with your fundamental beliefs and values, and you feel is accomplishing something significant. Those things will all line up, by definition. If it’s something tied to your values and beliefs, well, then you will feel it’s important and it’s hard for that not to be significant if the vision is coming directly out of those values and beliefs, and in some fashion helps other people. It will line up if you follow that path.

Gary S:
Why is a life of significance the true North, that which we’re aiming at as we look to emerge from a crucible?

Warwick F:
It’s funny. One of the things we don’t do here is say, Crucible Leadership, a life of success. And there’s nothing wrong with success, but success in of itself, doesn’t satisfy, doesn’t bring you joy. There’s not one person that we’ve had on this podcast that can say, success alone, in and of itself, made me joyful and fulfilled. Not one person. We’ve had about as diverse group of guests in experience, life, nationality, background, experiences you could possibly imagine, and I’m not against success. Success is fine. Being able to have a nice vacation, a nice house or a nice life for your family, nothing wrong with that. That’s good, but it doesn’t bring happiness in itself. Significance, we talk about significance as really… A life of significance is based on your fundamental beliefs and values. It’s something that you’re passionate about. It’s really a life significance, is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.

Warwick F:
That’s really what a life of significance is, and it’s when you bring joy to others, that’s when you have joy in your own eyes. Whether it’s David Charbonnet seeing a vet getting a little bit more movement than he or she could the previous day. Okay, that’s positive. When it’s seeing Cathleen Merkel, working with women leaders saying, “Boy, I can be successful and have a life, a balanced life and have joy,” that brings Cathleen Merkel joy. When Michelle Kuei inspires people with hope that you don’t have to be defined by your narrative. You can be perfectly normal, even in your differences and in your hardships. That sense of when you see the light in somebody’s eye, when you see hope in somebody’s eye, it brings you joy. It gives your life meaning. And when you think of the legacy concept and you’re on your death bed, okay, I’ve helped people. I brought joy to other people. Hopefully I’ve brought joy to my family. A life well lived. I’m at peace. We all want to be at peace at that point in our lives. We all want to feel, okay, this is a life well lived. And that’s what a life of significance is all about.

Gary S:
So as we wrap up episode 50 of Beyond the Crucible on a discussion of living a life of significance, how has it felt for you in the 49 episodes that we’ve finished before this one? With the feedback you’ve gotten from people, who’ve heard it, with being able to talk to people, having people say that they never really thought about their story like that until you asked them that question, how has the experience of this podcast and the first 49 episodes fueled your own life of significance?

Warwick F:
In a couple of ways, I’ve loved getting to know a whole lot of people, pretty much none of whom I knew before, and just hearing about their life of significance, hearing about what they went through, their experiences, just learning from them, learning from all of the things they’ve been through. So just, I feel like it’s almost one massive PhD course in terms of the human spirit, of how you combat adversity, how you combat terrible things that happen in your life. All of them bounce back from so many different kinds of crucibles and they have joy. All of them are leading lives of significance. All of them are focused on helping others. So, just seeing the triumph of the human spirit and using different ways maybe, but they all have hope, that was inspiring. I love, as you say, going for the heart. What were you feeling?

Warwick F:
When we were chatting to, someone we haven’t talked about as much, Lisa Blair, everybody wants to know about how she survived sailing single handedly around Antarctica. Very few people ask her about what was it like to be a young girl growing up in Australia being bullied and overcoming dyslexia, reinventing yourself, having more confidence. People don’t really go there, but I wanted to know, well, who is Lisa Blair? Not just the person you all read about, at least in Australian publications. So with every guest we want to know, who was the real Sarah Nannen? Who was the real Cathleen Merkel? Who was the real Ernest Shackleton? Who was the real Robert Krantz. We want to know who they really were, what they thought and felt. And so, if that hopefully brings some insight and hope to other people, one of the things we say here is, we’re dealers in hope. We like to offer hope, and if that offers people hope, then this is a worthwhile mission. So, I feel like I’ve learned a lot from their stories of love, being able to share those stories with others, and it’s given me hope personally, more hope. Not that I didn’t have some before, but it’s fueled that even more. So, it’s been an honor and a privilege to be able to hear the people’s stories and to share them with others.

Gary S:
Well that, Captain Fairfax, is a perfect landing of the plane. Listener, thank you so much for spending, what we know is a little bit longer time than you normally get to spend with us, but this was a celebration. We were having a party here talking about truly a milestone, 50 episodes of Beyond the Crucible, and what we hope came out of this discussion, what we hope you take away from this discussion is, what we say at the end of the 49 episodes that came before it, and that is this:

Gary S:
We know. We understand because we’ve been through them ourselves. We know your crucible is painful. We know that those traumas, tragedies, setbacks, failures change the trajectory of your life, but we also know from our personal experience and from what guests have shared on the show, that those crucibles aren’t the end of our stories and that pain is not the last thing that we’ll feel, that if we learn the lessons of our crucibles, and if we take one small step at a time moving forward, armed with those lessons, to pursue a life on purpose, to pursue life beyond the crucible, we know that the next chapter of our lives is going to be more rewarding, that our crucibles are not the end of our story. They are in many ways, the beginning of our story, and it’s a great new story because it leads where the GPS takes us to. The end of the line is a life of significance.

It’s the most wonderful time of the year, right? Except it doesn’t always feel that way. The holidays can bring on some serious emotional crucibles — from tensions among family members, sadness over those who are no longer with us, even struggling to overcome our disappointment in decisions made by loved ones. That’s what BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host and Crucible Leadership founder Warwick Fairfax faced after a long-ago picture of his late father gave rise to emotions he wasn’t expecting. How did he move beyond those feelings? As he discusses in this episode, he focused on the blessings of the present and the opportunities of the future.

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

—

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Warwick F:
Over the holiday period, I guess the question we want to ask ourselves is, especially for those that maybe aren't following a course, aren't charting a course that they really excited about, that they believe is meaningful, what one decision you're going to make this holiday period, this Christmas season, this New Year's season, that will move in a positive direction. I'm not a huge believer in new year resolutions, because you make them and then you forget them. But maybe a life resolution or a... What's one small step that will take you in a direction that's positive?

Gary S:
Now, that's a question to ponder at this time of year. And it's a question that was prompted for Warwick by something many of us, maybe even most of us, are experiencing right now, dealing with the challenges that come with a holiday season. This is, after all, the time of year when we're supposed to be singing about tidings of comfort and joy. But what if instead, were struggling with sadness and broken relationships? Instead of auld lang syne, we're dealing with old wounds. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. Today, in what I'm going to go ahead and call, I'm going to do it, I'm going to call this a very special holiday episode of Beyond the Crucible.

Gary S:
Warwick and I discuss the reality of those feelings that are anything but holly and jolly. We talk about moving beyond the disappointments and heartache of our past, and charting a new hopeful course for the future. How do we do it? We've got wisdom from everyone from Abe Lincoln to Bono, to inspire and inform us along the journey. And the first step, as Warwick explains, is just that, taking that first step into a bright new future of significance.

Warwick F:
It's interesting, the holidays... And in the US, there's a few of them: Thanksgiving, Hanukkah, Christmas, New Years. Australia, of course, we don't have Thanksgiving. But yeah, the holidays can be a joyous time with family. And with Coronavirus, for many of us, our family gatherings are not as big as they normally are, which obviously there's that sense of loss there with grandparents and cousins and extended family. And it can be a joyous time, but it can also be a time of loss, or maybe there's conflict, maybe broken relationships with family, maybe friends. So, it's...

Warwick F:
Often, during the holidays, there are mixed emotions, conflicting emotions. And it's often a time of reflection, a time of contemplation. And... Yeah. I guess, for me, that was the case. And what triggered this ... And I'm a reflective person by nature, full disclosure.

Gary S:
Our listeners... I think, by now, our listeners are well aware of that Warwick. And I mean that in the best possible way.

Warwick F:
Like with any quality we have, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. I mean, there's always a positive and a negative side for any of our traits. And so, I am reflective. And so, really what triggered this time of reflection for me... I was just going through some old photographs. And by old, I mean really old. As listeners will know, when I was born, my dad was in his late 50s. So, he was actually born in 1901. Yes, that's 1901.

Gary S:
Wow.

Warwick F:
We're talking like 120 years ago, or something. Whatever the math is, it's a long time ago. Obviously, he's passed away a long time ago, both my parents have now passed. And so, I was looking at this photograph. I think it was probably when he was about 20, 21. It was somewhere around 1922. And YouTube, you can see it, maybe we'll put it in the show notes. So, see if I can kind of hold it there. So, for people that can see this on YouTube, my dad is sort of the young guy in the jacket. He is the youngest guy there. His mom is to the right of him. She was pretty tall. And... So, obviously this is very old people are wearing this, the early 20s kind of clothes. And it's funny. This came in this kind of wild... this Kodak film wallet. See if I can hold this up here for people.

Gary S:
Oh wow.

Warwick F:
And this is Kodak. It says... This is from Oxford, where my dad was. On the back, it says, "Kodak film is the best film for Kodaks and Brownies." Brownies was a very old fashioned form of camera. So, this was like...

Gary S:
Back in the days before your phone was your camera.

Warwick F:
Yeah. This is like way way back, before then.

Gary S:
Right.

Warwick F:
So, okay. It's just a photograph. So, it's kind of like, "So what?" And so...

Gary S:
But that photograph... Right? That photograph triggered some reflective emotions in you.

Warwick F:
It did, because here's this guy who... Hold it up again. A pretty good looking guy, seemed to be relaxed, at ease, obviously came from a well-off family. My family has had significant wealth for generations. So anyway, I guess the point is, as I looked at that, it triggered a bunch of emotions. I remember thinking, "Okay. He doesn't know what is to come." But he was to be married three times. While the family seemed pretty happy back then, there were rifts within the family which is... variety of reason... between my cousin, or a cousin of my dad and my dad's eldest son, who was by his first marriage.

Warwick F:
And any time there's divorce, it absolutely affects the kids. I was fortunate because I was from the last marriage of my dad and my mother, who was married before. She married my dad. So, I didn't grow up with... a child of divorced parents. I was fortunate. But it takes an effect. And so, I looked at that, and it was almost sort of wistful. It's like... I knew, obviously, who my dad was and my grandmother. But I have no idea who these other people are. It's too long ago. There's nobody alive who would have a clue who these people are.

Gary S:
Right.

Warwick F:
So, part of it was this wistful sense of, for generations in my family... Certainly, as the listeners know, the founder of the family business, John Fairfax, was a person of great faith. So, it seemed like there were good marriages, no divorce. As far as I know, happy marriages. It was just really close knit family. And then, this is about 1922 or something. Over the decades, somehow, maybe it was more power, more money, more marriages... Somehow, the family... There were rifts within the family. Children of divorced parents, that has an affect. It was a tendency back then, if you were wealthy, to raise your kids with nannies. That would be true in Australia, in the US, in the UK, in that time frame.

Warwick F:
So, I kind of looked at that. I was almost partly wistful, partly it's like... My dad was a good man in a lot of ways. But it's like, "Gosh dad. Did you have to get married three times? Couldn't you have been a bit more thoughtful?" And the devastation in the family, and just... Both my parents have gone. The house where I grew up, in Fairwater, which was a pretty amazing house, that's gone. So, it was a sense of loss of what's no longer here, and a sense of sadness, a little bit of anger at my dad for maybe some decisions that could have been better, and rifts in the family. Not all of them were his fault. But there were some things he did that probably weren't helpful.

Warwick F:
And so, there was mixed emotions of wistfulness, sadness. Why couldn't things have been like they were prior to my father generation? Really a complex set of emotions that kind of almost saddened me, depressed me, a little bit. So, it was a... That one photo set off a flood of emotions and thoughts, as photos often do.

Gary S:
Yeah. And it's not... It's interesting. You described some things about your family. Your great-great grandfather started this media business, and he was a man of faith. And I know what you know, not as intimately as you know it. But I know what you know from reading his biography written by another member of the family that his relationship with his wife was very strong. We say often on the show, when we're talking to guests, that it's amazing how crucible experiences, even though the circumstances of what you're going through may be different, the emotions are the same.

Gary S:
And I think, perhaps in neon lights, what I see here is... No. Not many of our listeners have grown up like you grew up, with a family that had that kind of legacy of influence, and money, and power, and all of the things that come with it. But that legacy of broken relationships, and divorce, and decisions made that have ramifications down through the generations... That is a fairly common, unfortunately, thing in many families. And I think it comes to a sharp focus for us at this time of year. This is... As I said in the beginning, this is the time of year that we're singing about tidings of comfort and joy. But we're not always feeling comfortable and joyous.

Warwick F:
No. Sometimes, it's memories of sadness. Sometimes, it's happy memories that could also cause us to be sad, which sounds strange. But they're times that we've lost like with my parents, who they had their foibles like we all do, but they dearly loved each other, and just memories of growing up at Fairwater on the Sydney Harbor. And Christmas Eve, we would gather around the piano and sing Christmas carols. And he would always be amusing because none of us could really play the piano. And my dad would attempt to play. And I think he probably learned how to play the piano in school 50, 60 years before, but hadn't played much ever since, except at Christmas Eve, once a year.

Warwick F:
He'd play with two hands. And he'd start off playing Hark the Herald Angels. And it would be like, "Hark... hang on, hang on. The... okay, almost got it. Herald..." He tired to do two hands. And then, he would remove the left hand, because it's far easier to play the piano with just one hand. And so, he'd play the piano with one hand and we'd sing a few Christmas carols. But every single year, it would be the same ritual. It would be like, "Dad, give it up. You know you don't play the piano that well. Just go straight to one hand. Why do the two hand ritual?" But, in some strange way, it was this nice memory or... Every family has its own traditions. We'd have a lot of extended family would come over. And we have a huge dining room table, the mahogany kind of deal.

Warwick F:
But we wouldn't open our presents until after lunch. Not only after lunch, after the adults had coffee. And because, in the English/Australian tradition, you eat lunch at 1:00, it could be 2:00, 2:30, or later. And by that point, my cousins and I... There's a lot of kids. It's like, "Seriously? Can you hurry up with the food and the coffee? Let's get on with it." So, you've got some happy amusing memories. But when I think about this sense of reflection about the holidays, yes, you've got the sad and the happy memories in the past which are gone, and mixed emotions. But then, not only do you have the past, you have the present. It's like a Christmas Carol, the ghost of Christmas past, present, and future, all that kind of thing well there's the present.

Warwick F:
And sometimes, that's great. Right now, as I've mentioned and we've discussed with COVID, there aren't too many people that are having a normal Christmas Holiday gathering this year. And sometimes, it can be a sense of joy. Other times, it can be broken relationships with siblings, or cousins. Or maybe we have relatives that made choices in life that we think aren't as helpful for them, but we don't say anything. Or if we have, it doesn't go down well. And we try and love and accept, but we feel sad, sorry, frustrated. Depending on the relationship, it could even be angry. Here we go again. They're going to push my buttons for the 53rd time. And I'm going to try and smile and pretend it didn't affect me. And...

Gary S:
And sometimes, it can be... And I'm going to do... Here's a picture I'm going to hold up. I posted this on Facebook today. This is my family, me and my two brothers and two sisters. And you can see I'm the little guy in the... clearly wearing... I'm the little guy getting held up over there on the far side by my big brother.

Warwick F:
That's awesome.

Gary S:
And we'll show this in the show notes too, so people can see what I'm talking about But there, you see all kids... We were all kids around the Christmas tree. We were all younger than probably... Well, let's see. My brother's 14 years... All younger than 18, most in just early double digits, me in very early single digits. And half of the people in that photograph, or half of my siblings, have passed away, in addition to my mother. I have eulogized half of my family: my mother, my older sister, my older brother, and my stepfather.

Gary S:
And holidays can also bring about the longing for situations like I just showed. Right? There's a lot of people who go through that, people who you've celebrated with before not only aren't there because of COVID, but because of life's... They've left this life. They've departed this life. And that kind of sadness can ring as well at this time. And you can think back on those moments. And you can get reflective about...

Warwick F:
Right. You look at that photo, and you go, "Why couldn't life be like that now? Why couldn't I have my siblings at Christmas, my mom, my stepdad? That was a nice memory. Why does that have to go? Can't we have that again somehow?" And it inevitably, for most people, it triggers those sea of emotions. Yeah. So, it's a time of reflection, a time of frustration. And I guess the challenge with all this is, it's fine to be wistful and maybe remember some of those things, but don't let either the happy emotions or the sad ones pull you down.

Warwick F:
But how can happy emotions pull you down? Well, because they can be a sense of... like that photograph that you showed, a sense of loss. And if it does... It sounds simple to say this. But if it doesn't serve you, remember it, but don't... As one of our guests, Professor Badaracco, Joe Badaracco, said, "Ruminate versus reflect." If it's ruminating, as in, "Gosh, that's unfair. And why did that have to happen?" It's natural but you don't want to dwell on there and just live in it, and let those emotions flood. You're not dishonoring folks by not letting it pull you down. So, treasure those memories. Try to not let the negative ones pull you down. And part of the whole chart your own course is, each of us has our own memories, our own path, our own new beginning, if you will.

Gary S:
Right. And the idea of calling this episode Chart Your Own Course... It's very similar, again, even though circumstances are different from the crucibles that we have on, or the crucible situations that we talk about mostly on the show, or usually on the show, in that you need to "learn the lessons of your crucible." You need to learn the lessons of that wistfulness, of those setbacks, those tragedies, those traumas, those things that we've been discussing that have happened to you. You need to learn those lessons.

Gary S:
And then, it comes... The idea of charting your own course is, how do you move beyond that? It's the same thing that we say about any crucible. You need to learn the lessons. It doesn't happen overnight, in most cases. But once you learn those lessons, then how do you... To go back to a very impactful statement you made in the podcast a few episodes back, how do you take one small step at a time, one small step followed by another small step by another small step, to begin to chart your course beyond the crucible of those holiday woes, depression, sadness, broken relationships, conflicts? How do you do that? And that's what we really want to spend most of our time talking about here.

Warwick F:
Yeah. You said a very interesting thing which was, learn the lessons of your crucible and indeed the crucibles you grew up in, maybe other family member's crucibles. Because we can learn, from our family, things that we admire. And I admired my dad's integrity and doing what he felt was right. But we can also learn from our family's mistakes. Doesn't mean we dishonor them by saying that. But we're going to make our own mistakes. But at least maybe we can hopefully avoid some ones that other family members have made. So, as I mentioned, my dad was married three times.

Warwick F:
And when I was growing up, I was pretty paranoid about that. Because I saw the... Devastation is maybe too strong a word, or maybe it's not... but the impact it caused on my older half siblings. And I didn't want that to be me. I didn't want that to be my kids. So, I was very very paranoid. I wanted... Because I'm a person of faith, I wanted to marry a woman of faith and character. Character was the single most important thing to me. And by, from my perspective, the grace of God, I met a woman of character and faith, wasn't really... didn't care about money or that kind of thing, which, when I met her whilst in the middle of the whole takeover thing, she was American just visiting Australia at the time.

Warwick F:
And we've been married a little over 30 years. And that, as I've maybe mentioned before, is such a blessing. And I loved her very much when we were married. And I love her more now. I loved her a lot back then. So, that... So, I don't take that for granted. Like with any relationship, you've got to be humble and help each other, serve each other, and all of that. But... At least that's a different course than my father had. My kids have not grown up in a broken home. So, that's a big difference.

Gary S:
And part of what is undoubtedly helping you right now work your way through what you described as the frustration, the wistfulness, even the anger a little bit, that you felt when you saw that photograph of your dad and you thought about some of the decisions he made in life. Part of... A huge part of what's helping you through that is focusing on, changing your perspective, getting your gaze off of what went before that you couldn't control, and then putting your gaze on those things that are before you that you're living in right now that are blessings.

Gary S:
And I want to share with listeners, because I think this fits with that. And that's... This isn't the holiday that we're in now. It's passed. It was Thanksgiving. But Abraham Lincoln was the president who established a national day of Thanksgiving. And it's not widely known. It's not talked about every year at Thanksgiving. But he issued his proclamation for Thanksgiving on October 3, 1863. That was just two weeks after more than 34,000 Americans were killed or wounded in the Battle of, I'm going to pronounce it wrong, Chickamauga, in the Civil War. And this is what he wrote in his proclamation. So, as you think about those things behind you, those things that have gone bad, those things that feel hard, think of what Lincoln's saying here, and then what he says in the end.

Gary S:
But this is what he wrote. "The year that is drawing toward it's close has been has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and beautiful skies." So, he's already looking ahead. He's seeing things that aren't that terrible devastation of war. "To these bounties which are so constantly enjoyed that we're prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added which are of so extraordinary in nature, they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart, which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a Civil War of unequal magnitude and severity, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere, except in the theater of military conflict.

Gary S:
"Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements. And the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom." This is how he ends it. "It has seemed to me fit and proper that these gifts should be solemnly, reverently, and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People."

Gary S:
That, to me, is just incredible, that at that point in the Civil War, two weeks after one of the bloodiest days in the Civil War, he could see those blessings, those positive things. And I think about that when you say, despite what you've been going through, as you've looked back and you've felt remorse and regret over some things that were in your past, caused by your forebears, you look at your wife and your family, and you see those blessings. You see those things that give you riotous thanksgiving.

Warwick F:
Wow. That's so well said. Just for Lincoln to be thankful amidst the horrors of the Civil War, which at the time was the most horrific war, hundreds of thousands, enormous number of soldiers died. I think it wasn't... War World One, sadly, was worse. But at the time, in the history of humankind, more people died during that war than any other war in history. It was just staggering. So, to be thankful amidst that is... It's just hard to even fathom. But... Yeah. I mean, I think...

Gary S:
And that was... Let me say this. Let me just add this one thing.

Warwick F:
Sure.

Gary S:
That was something from an editorial. I used to be editorial page editor of a newspaper in Palms Spring California. And I wrote an editorial about this on Thanksgiving in 1999. But here's how I ended that, just to bridge to the point you're about to make. I said, "If Lincoln could find such abundant reason to be thankful in the thick of war, how difficult can it really be for us. Take a few minutes today," I urged readers, "after the pumpkin pie and before the football game," it was Thanksgiving, "to look around your life. Even if it seems more battlefield than bountiful right now, you too can permit yourself to expect a continuance of whatever blessings you find there."

Warwick F:
Yeah. That's so well said. Not many of us are going through the kind of crucible that... As divided as the country is now, that's a whole nother level of division that the country was going through in the Civil War. So yeah, we can... Despite our circumstances, we can always be grateful. And kind of as I was mentioning earlier, I tried to learn from, frankly, some of the mistakes of my forebears, and my dad, because of the way he was raised. I think certainly my older two siblings from my father's first marriage, they were raised by nannies to a degree. This is like the 1930s. My dad and his first wife went to England for like a year, and they had small kids that were like, I don't know, 6, 3, somewhere around there.

Warwick F:
It's just unbelievable you would sort of leave small kids alone for so long. But people did that back then, wealthy families. So for us... Yeah, we maybe would have a babysitter once in a while, but we wanted to raise our kids ourselves, which sounds pretty normal, but it's... For wealthy people, which I didn't, you know... I wasn't at the same level as my parents when my kids were small. I just wanted to be around them. I didn't want to be this workaholic dad that was never around.

Gary S:
Right.

Warwick F:
I was there at their soccer games, or dance recitals, whatever. And, as I think I've mentioned before, we do cards, family birthdays, or we say what we most admire about people.

Gary S:
I'm going to steal that idea, by the way. I've loved that ever since you brought it up the first time.

Warwick F:
And what's amazing is my boys, who are more athletic, they got Gale's genes. And my daughter got my genes, which is not quite as athletic. They all say, "Well, thanks dad. You were there at my soccer game, my tennis game, my dance recital." So, we've chartered our own course. And it doesn't mean we haven't made mistakes. But just... My kids didn't grow up in a broken home. We were present parents. We were there. We've tried to encourage them. We try not to tell them what to do. So yeah, I'm sure we've made our own course... made our own mistakes. But we've chartered our own course.

Warwick F:
And so, I'm grateful for a loving wife, loving kids. My kids are all in their 20s. Because of COVID, they're all with us right now. So, that is amazing. And we all get on. That doesn't mean to say there's not the odd speed bump here and there, but I have a lot to be thankful for. We have a beautiful home. My wife has an interior design background, and so... She's a fantastic cook, which doesn't... You're not always a good cook if you're an interior designer, but she's a great cook. But she also knows how to make the house look so wonderful. Her grandfather was born in Norway, so you've got some Norwegian viking little figures around the place. And we've got our own traditions. And I've got so much to be thankful, so much blessing.

Warwick F:
So I think, when you start feeling melancholy... And maybe not everybody is as blessed as, frankly, I am or we are. But focus on, what are you grateful for? What are the things that you feel blessed? And I think don't focus on the negative, especially the negative you can't control, whether it's broke... Yeah. Broken relationships, maybe there are some things you can do. But it's not all way... You can't always solve everything yourself. So, don't get overly melancholy about loss, even if it's the happy memories, the sad memories. Think about the things you're grateful for, the things you have now, that are such a blessing. And reflect on maybe...

Warwick F:
Rather than focusing on the negative. I could focus on the negative decisions: the 2.25 billion dollar takeover, and 150 year old family business going out of the family, and the mistakes I made which caused some rift in the family. I could focus on all of that. But focus on maybe some of the positive things. It sounds a bit too much of ego, but it's okay maybe to be thankful for maybe some of the good decisions you've made. As a person of faith, it's a lot easier for me. Because I can say, "Thank you God." Because I view it as His wisdom and His guidance that have helped me make hopefully a few good decisions. So, I really more turn the thanks back to Him rather than to me. So, gratitude is a huge way of kind of dealing with what can be the crucible experience of the melancholy/wistful feelings of the holidays.

Gary S:
Yeah. And you, in addition to the personal blessings that you've talked about... You've shared, on this show many times, professionally speaking, things... There are those who will look at you still, and say, "My goodness. You could have run a 2.2... a multi billion dollar media empire. It could still be going. And you could be Bill Gates. And you could be all that stuff. And professionally, you could have all this influence." But you've carved out a professional niche that you're quite blessed by, I know.

Warwick F:
Yeah. Part of charting your own course... Obviously, I've talked a bit about family and how my wife and I want to approach that. And fortunately, 80, 90... 95% of the time, on any major decision, we're in agreement, which is an unbelievable blessing, I've got to say. But professionally... Yeah. I could be all kind of, "Oh my gosh. I could have been this powerful media mogul." And we're very very comfortable, but I could have been more than very very comfortable, and had multi millions or billions or something, and I don't know what, the way the uber wealthy are, a house in the south of France, another one in Aspen, and dotted around the place, maybe the Maldives. I don't know. Pick your favorite spot. And some do, and that's fine. But I'm not as well known. I don't have the accolades my forebears... I think I've mentioned in an earlier podcast, my dad was a knight, had the same name as I have. So, he was Sir Warwick. And his dad was Sir James. And then, Sir James Reading. I don't have a knighthood, but okay. So, I could look to the things I don't have, the big family business, the respect and accolades. My Wikipedia entry is not particularly favorable. It's young hot headed kid, could have had it all, doesn't have it.

Warwick F:
So, I could focus on that. But really, what I should be focusing on, which I like to think I do most of the time is... I've moved on from that, from a variety of experiences I've mentioned, through working at an aviation services company, and financial analysis, and business analysis, to being executive coach, to being an elder at my non denominational church and on the... I have been, in the past, been on the board of my kids' school... to now, with Crucible Leadership. I have a book on Crucible Leadership that will come out next year. We have this podcast, Beyond the Crucible, active on social media. I have a blog. And I'm also blessed to have an unbelievable team, obviously, you and I. I'm blessed to have you on the team, the folks at Signal, Keri for the book sales, Steve on the podcast side.

Warwick F:
I'm so blessed. I've charted my own course. I love what I do, helping people think of how crucibles, as you so aptly say at the end of every podcast, how crucibles don't have to be the end of your story, they can be the beginning of an exciting new chapter. I'm really, really blessed, not only personally, but professionally. And I have charted my own course. I love what I do. So really, that's another key is... Hopefully, you have charted your own course. If you haven't, maybe now would be a good time to reflect not just on, hopefully, the happy memories in the past. But reflect on, "Okay. Maybe I've made mistakes. Maybe I've made choices that weren't too good." I've certainly spoken a lot about the choices I've made, certainly professionally, that weren't so good, and that impacted wider family members.

Warwick F:
But now is the time when maybe you can think of, "What do I want my life personally and professionally to be like?" We can't control a lot of things in life. We can't control the COVID pandemic. We can be safe and sane and all that. When the vaccine comes out, that will help. But what we can control is our choices. Every day, we get to make a choice, many choices. Our lives are a whole sum of choices. Our lives, our health, our legacy, is a sum of choices and decisions. We can't change our past choices and our past decisions. But we can change the ones today and tomorrow. So, think about, "What course do I want to chart? How is it in line with my values, and what I believe in, and what I think is important?"

Warwick F:
Today, that's something that we should focus on. Focus on what you can change today. And focus on the future. What do you want your life to be like? What course do you want to chart?

Gary S:
That is almost like you knew I had this book here, and I was going to say this. And you didn't. You didn't know. We haven't talked about this. You were just talking about focus on the future. This is a quote from Bono, the lead singer of U2, and a rock star who probably has a home in the south of France and all that stuff. But here's what Bono said about the future.

Gary S:
"I used to think the future was solid or fixed, something you inherited like an old building that you move into when the previous generation moves out or gets chased out. But it's not. The future is not fixed. It's fluid. You can build your own building, or hut, or condo. The world is more malleable." I love that phrase. "The world is more malleable than you think. And it's waiting for you to hammer it into shape."

Warwick F:
That is such a great quote, and it's right. We cannot change the past. Even some things about the present, we can't necessarily change, certainly can't change other people's decisions and choices in life. But the future, it's... There's a lot about that, that we can change. We can change the decisions we want to make, how we treat people around us, both personally and professionally. We can choose to move in a direction that, as we say on Crucible Leadership, that is in line with our internal wiring. It's in line with our gifting, in line with our values. It's something we're off the charts passionate about. It's a vision that we think will make the world a better place, be it in a small way or maybe even a bigger way.

Warwick F:
The future is something that we maybe can't control, but we can certainly control our choices, our decisions. So really, in the vein of what you mentioned earlier about one's step, is... Over the holiday period, I guess, the question we want to ask ourselves is... Especially for those that maybe aren't following a course, aren't charting a course, that they're really are excited about, that they believe is meaningful, what one decision are you going to make this holiday period, this Christmas season, this New Years season, that will move in a positive direct...

Warwick F:
I'm not a huge believer in New Years resolutions because you make them and then you forget them. But maybe a life resolution or a... What's one small step that will take you in a direction that's positive? Part of moving from the melancholy too, is forgiving past family members. I don't have a lot of angst towards my dad. I deeply respected him. But maybe forgiving him for being young and maybe not making as good a choices as perhaps he could have. But part of it too is forgiving yourself. I really try to work on this. As a reminder, Tommy Breedlove talks a lot about... who we've had on the podcast. He talks a lot about self leadership. Well, part of self leadership is you've got to forgive yourself.

Warwick F:
So, I have to forgive my poor choices, professionally in the family business, and whatever other poor choices I've made, because you can't control it. Learn from it, as I've mentioned. Absolutely, learn from it. Try not to repeat the same mistake over and over again, because history does tend to repeat itself. But forgive yourself. Forgive those around you. And move forward. There's a scripture that talks about... I think it's in Philippians, forgetting what is behind and moving toward what is ahead. That obviously has a faith connotation. But whatever your perspective, focus on, where do you want to move on ahead? What do you want your life to be like personally and professionally? Think of that. Value the good. Let go of the bad memories. Forgive yourself. Forgive others. And move forward, chart your own course. So, that's really probably the key to getting out of the negative wistfulness and melancholy is be grateful for what you have. And chart your own course as you move forward.

Warwick F:
Focus on... Be grateful for the present, the bits that you should be grateful for. But focus on the future. That's your eyes should be ahead. Your eyes should not be on the path that you've walked previously, or at least only as lessons learned, but not ruminating forever. So, don't focus on the past. Don't even focus so much on the present. Be cognizant of it, but have your eyes faced forward, looking to the hills, looking to the mountains, hopefully the rainbows. Just look forward. That's where your focus should be.

Gary S:
That is an excellent point to begin what I often say on the show, as the captain has turned on the fasten seatbelt signs, and it's getting time to land the plane. But because we've talked about Christmas, and this is going to air during the Christmas season, I'm going to say that Santa has indicated to the reindeer that it's about time to land the sleigh. Before we do that, one thing I want to say to you, and to listeners about you, is... You've said many times on this show, Warwick. You've said many times that your Wikipedia entry... And you've always referenced this. It says something along the lines of brash, impetuous young kid, could have had it all.

Warwick F:
Right.

Gary S:
I would argue that, that brash impetuous young kid has grown into a man who does indeed have it all of the things that matter.

Warwick F:
Well, I don't want... If, by saying "well said", it makes it seem like it's arrogant. But I can't think of anything else to say other than "Yeah." The wife, the family, we have the flexibility financially to... not be held back a whole lot, I have to say. Professionally, I love what I do. I have a great team. I go to a great church. I'm so blessed. I am so blessed. Yeah. Logically, I don't have a whole lot of reason to be melancholy, but we're human. But yeah, I feel blessed. And I think maybe others don't have as much reason. I don't know. But I think we can all... There are all... Most of us can think of things that we are blessed by...

Gary S:
Absolutely.

Warwick F:
... and things that we're thankful for. You know? You looked at that photograph of your family. I'm sure you look back at your mom and relatives, and you think, "Okay. Everything wasn't all roses and peaches and cream, but there were things to be thankful for."

Gary S:
Absolutely.

Warwick F:
Obviously, you're thankful for your current life and... You know?

Gary S:
Yeah. And the guy-

Warwick F:
Got kids, a wife... Your life hasn't been perfect, but you've got a lot to be thankful for too. Right?

Gary S:
Absolutely. My big brother, who's 14 years older than me, who was holding me in that photo, he lives now... I'm back in my hometown. He's my best friend. We've grown closer together over the years. He was holding me just because he was the only one that wouldn't drop me in that picture. And now, we're actually... We're closer than brothers. We're as close as brothers and great friends. So, that is entirely true.

Gary S:
As we wrap up, as the sleigh touches down, connect, for listeners, the dots, Warwick to... from the beginning, when you talked about the picture of your dad and the wistfulness that, that sort of brought to you, and the sadness in some senses, and this idea of charting your own course. Bring those two points together as we put the reindeer on the ground.

Warwick F:
Indeed. I think I can look at that photo and be angry, wistful. It's like... Well, short of heaven, where I'm sure that's where John Fairfax is, I'm not going to meet him on this earth. I'm not going to meet these relatives from three or four generations ago. And that's okay. Let it go. Let go of the fact that my dad made some decisions, not all of which were good. Well, I've made some decisions, not all of which were good. Just let it go. Be grateful for the blessings that you have, but just let it go. Just kind of open your arms, open your hands, and just kind of let it go. It's like, whew, let it go, breathe it out. It's okay. Don't obsess over it. Be grateful. So, let go of...

Warwick F:
Even the good and bad memories, if they're pulling you down... That which pulls you down, you need to let go of, even the good, which sounds a bit contradiction in terms. Be grateful for what you have, family, professionally. And then, as we say in Chart You Own Course, think of the future. What do you want your legacy to be on your death bed? We talk a lot about life of significance for a reason. What do you want your life of significance? A life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. How is charting your own course fueling a life of significance that, when you're on your deathbed, and when others are eulogizing you, what are they going to be saying in that eulogy? What do you want them to say? You can influence that today.

Warwick F:
So, focus on the future, focus on a life of significance, focus on a life that you and others around you will be proud of. That should be... The future, and as you chart your own course to a life of significance, that's really where you should devote a bit more energy to than over reflecting about the past, when it doesn't serve you and pulls you down.

Gary S:
And with that, I can see that Rudolph has dimmed his red nose. The sleigh's on the ground. Santa's scrambling out to deliver presents.

Warwick F:
And you need to give a shout out speaking of Rudolph, to the blog you just wrote. Because it will be great if listeners could read that, because you can't mention Rudolph without mentioning the blog.

Gary S:
Yes. There's a blog at crucibleleadership.com, thank you for the plug, Warwick. At crucibleleadership.com, if you click on Blog, you'll see a holiday themed blog which extracts pivotal crucible leadership learnings from the story of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, and that beloved special that we've all seen, dating back to its premier in 1964. So, hopefully you enjoy that. Hopefully, listener, you've enjoyed this episode of Beyond the Crucible. Thank you as always for spending your time with us. You can learn more about not just the blog, but about Crucible Leadership. We have some very interesting things going on there.

Gary S:
Visit crucibleleadership.com, poke around a little bit. You'll find some resources, including an assessment you can take to see where you are on your journey to move beyond your crucible. You can find out your profile. Are you an imagineer? Where are you at on the road? And then, what is your personality profile as you're traveling that road? So, check that out at crucibleleadership.com.

Gary S:
And, until we're together the next time, do remember the essence of what we've talked about here. And I'm not going to do what I do often and say, "Here's three takeaways." Because I think the key takeaway of this episode is... goes back to Warwick, what he said a couple podcasts ago and he repeated here. And that is, what's the one small step you can take, as you want to move beyond this crucible of some of the tensions and trials and things that can be associated with the holiday season? Take that step. Find your blessings. Take that step. And, as Bono says, "Get out your hammer and start shaping your future."

Gary S:
Because our crucible experiences, as we've talked about here and as we talk about every week, are not the end of your story. If you learn the lessons of them, if you apply the lessons of them, if you recognize the blessings amid them, it's far from the end of your story. It's, in fact, the beginning of a new story which can be the most rewarding story of your life, which can be the story that leads your virtual Wikipedia entry, if you don't have a real Wikipedia entry, to say that you are indeed someone who has it all. And that is because, when you learn the lessons of your crucible and you apply them and you move beyond your crucible, you find your way to a life of significance.

She set out on a quest to become the first woman to sail solo around Antartica. But 72 days in, when a horrific storm with waves as high as a two-story building caused her mast to topple and nearly sank her boat, Lisa Blair’s journey changed from setting a record to staying alive. In the hours that followed, she called on her months of preparation, all the courage she could muster and her indefatigable spirit to steady her craft — then broke off pursuit of the record to head to port in Cape Town, South Africa, for repairs. But she refused to let the myriad and monumental crucibles she’d endured derail her dream. She launched a second run at the record books that secured her a place in nautical history.

To learn more about Lisa Blair and her book, Facing Fear, visit www.lisablairsailstheworld.com

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

—

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Lisa B:
So I reached for my life jacket, which was on my bunk right next to me and I was clipping it shot, and I just turned to climb outside the boat, and then I heard the mast come crashing down in this sole minute. And it was this gut-wrenching sound of metal on metal, just twisting and grinding and the entire boat shuddering as all the weight changed on the boat and everything inside the boat was just amplified 1000 times. And I realized in that moment that I had just demasted. And so now that means I'm in a broken boat, 1,000 miles from land.

Lisa B:
If I don't cut the mast free or separate it from the boat fast enough, it will put a hole in the boat and it will sink me. So that set off this whole new challenge. And instead of thinking about Australia, which was a full week sail away on this record that I was currently beating, it was suddenly like, okay, I have to survive tonight. How do I survive tonight? What do I need to do to keep myself alive?

Gary S:
It's hard to imagine a crucible experience getting more harrowing than that, chilled to the bone, whipped about by violent winds and waves, alone in the dark in the middle of the ocean, having to think fast, or you just might die fast. That's what Australian sailor Lisa Blair faced in 2017 when her quest to become the first woman to sail solo around Antarctica literally came crashing down on her. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership.

Gary S:
When we left Lisa's interview with Warwick last week, she had just described what theoretically happens to a sailboat when it loses its mast. On today's episode, the second part of that conversation, she shares in heart pounding detail, what happened to her boat when she endured and open sea demasting. As you'll hear her describe the nautical, meteorological and emotional crucibles that kept crashing into her, you'll understand why Warwick said reading her book about the voyage was like reading a thriller. A can't put it down page turner, he consumed mostly in one sitting. Here's that terrifying, inspiring story as only Lisa can tell it.

Lisa B:
Yeah. So at this point I'd been sailing for 72 days. So I'd gone past South America and Cape Horn and I was just passing in South Africa and I was down at the 45 degree line or 48, 30 South. So I was just over 1,000 nautical miles South of South Africa. And for me, the entire South Atlantic ocean had been effectively one big storm. I don't think I saw any winds less than 30 knots the entire time. So I was in weather that was quite rough. And so it's a six to eight meter wave, that's the height of like a two story building coming down on you. But it was sort of like a normal day at sea, because every other day for that last couple of weeks had been like that. But there was a storm cell passing over me that night that was due to get a bit bigger through the night.

Lisa B:
So the waves were going to get more aggressive and the winds were going to get a bit stronger through that night and it was just coming on dark. So there was that real faint blue tinge left in the sky. And I was having a nano nap in my bunk and I had been down for about 20 minutes when, out of nowhere, I just heard a bang and it was this incredibly loud, just sounded like a gunshot had gone off by my head because it was this metallic after ringing that was going on. And it was just so violent a noise, shocked me completely. And I jumped out of my bunk and I climbed up on my engine box. And my initial thought was that I'd broken a piece of rigging wire at the back of the boat or a piece of rope rigging that we have.

Lisa B:
So the first thing I did was I have this sort of perspex dome on the cabin top. And that allows me when I'm standing on my engine box, to be able to see out of the boat without having to physically climb outside and expose myself to the freezing conditions and get smashed by a wave. So I climbed up on this engine box and I looked to the back of the boat. And the first thing I noticed was that piece of rigging rope was still there and it was fine. And so I looked to the front of the boat and I remember just feeling the blood drain from my face as I looked and my mast is 22 meters long, its aluminum. So it's this giant spear and it was just sticking up in the sky. And now I realized the piece of rigging had snapped and so the entire mast was just sort of like jellying around like a hula girl shaking her hips. And I looked at it and I just remember thinking to myself, tack the boat.

Lisa B:
Now tacking is when we change direction and we change the wind from one side of the boat to the other. So by tacking, I would effectively be able to put the pressure of this storm and these winds from the broken side of the boat onto the other side of the boat that didn't have the broken rigging. And I would effectively potentially have a chance to then drop my sails, run repairs, fix the problem. And as I'm looking, I remember just thinking tack the boat, tack the boat. And so I reached for my life jacket, which was on my bunk right next to me and I was clipping it shut and I just turned to climb outside the boat, and then I heard the mast come crashing down in this sole minute and it was this gut-wrenching sound of metal on metal, just twisting and grinding and the entire boat shuddering as all the weight changed on the boat and everything inside the boat was just amplified 1,000 times.

Lisa B:
And I realized in that moment that I had just demasted. And so now that means I'm in a broken boat, 1,000 miles from land. If I don't cut the mast free or separate it from the boat fast enough, it will put a hole in the boat and it will sink me. So that set off this whole new challenge. And instead of thinking about Australia, which was a full week sail away on this record that I was currently beating, it was suddenly like, okay, I have to survive tonight. How do I survive tonight? What do I need to do to keep myself alive? And it started this whole process of fighting to keep the boat floating.

Warwick F:
And that was a journey in itself. I mean, as sailors would know much better than I, it's unbelievable that you were able to cut it loose and get all those other parts of the masts and cross pieces together and so you start. I mean, talk about when you start heading north towards Cape Town and you've got to cross that 45 degree line. Once that happens, you know you're not going to be in that round Antarctica unassisted no stop record. So when you cross that line, at the risk of asking the obvious question, what was that feeling when you were out of the racetrack and heading towards Cape Town?

Lisa B:
Yeah, it was actually earlier that I had to make that decision. So the next morning after I'd managed to keep the boat alive for the night, I mean, I finished that evening with hypothermia, so I took on a self-treat. I went up on deck the next day, it took me a whole day to sort of patch repairs and clear the debris from the water and clear my rudder and my engine and be able to actually move the boat in any direction. And the storm had broken and it was this crazy blue sky with these enormous waves still coming through. And it was like this completely surreal experience because I knew I had survived, but I was still surviving because I wasn't on land yet. And I was still in a broken boat with no mast. The only thing I'd managed to salvage was my boom, which is this horizontal piece of equipment.

Lisa B:
And so I had to make a decision at 5:00 PM that night, whether I would turn my engine on or not. And I had to analyze whether I thought I could build a new mast and limp my way to Australia and complete the trip without turning to South Africa or void the record, do a smart decision and alter course for South Africa. And that decision I agonized over for hours. And the reason I chose not to continue with the record by building a jury rig was because there was quite a sizable hole in the side of my boat at the deck hull join. And it was at such a structural point that I worried that the structural integrity of the boat was compromised. And if I got between two of these sort of 10 meter waves and lifted, that the whole boat would buckle in the middle and she could snap in half and then game over.

Lisa B:
So I made the smart decision and I made the call to turn on my motor and alter course for South Africa. But I remember just feeling completely heartbroken because this is three and a half years of work. I'd been at sea for 72 days at that point, completely on my own. I was beating the men's record when the mask came down. It was an issue that should never have occurred. It was this extreme case of electrolysis, so it never should have happened. And it just caught gear failure and the rigging came down and I was thankful that I was alive. And I remember just thinking to myself, don't think about the greater goal, just think of the next step. Break it down to, okay, tomorrow I need to do this.

Lisa B:
The next day I need to do that, and just concentrate on getting to land because if I thought about what I was losing or what I'd lost in that moment, as far as the record went and all the work associated with that, I just couldn't stop crying. I was just a mess. So I had to just suppress all of those emotions and not focus on them and just face forward and think, get to land, focus on surviving this next moment, this next day, this next hour, get to land. And then I can think about what's next.

Warwick F:
And that's really important for folks because sometimes you get so caught up in the goal that logic goes out the window. I mean, as listeners would know when I did the $2.25 billion takeover, I was so focused on change management, bringing back the ideals of the founder. There's no breakpoint, failure is not an option that I wasn't thinking as clearly as you were. It's complicated. This is your vision. Mine wasn't really... my vision was more inherited. It's a complex comparison, but you were thinking logically and it's easy in that circumstances to get so bound up with the vision that safety and logic goes out the window. It's funny. We had this historian talk a couple months ago about Ernest Shackleton that you're probably familiar with. And his was a story of the vision and his goal overtaking logic and common sense.

Warwick F:
And he was at in fact... one of the places he ended up coming back to is South Georgia Island, which you passed on your journey, funnily enough. But he hit a point where he was in Argentina about to head off in like 19... I don't know, 15, somewhere around there. And all the experts said the icebergs are further north than they'd been in like decades. Don't go, suicide. He said, no, but I want to do this, this whole pole fever thing that there was in the early 1900s. And he was going to go there and cross Antarctica from one to the other. And he ended up almost losing his whole crew from making a very illogical unwise decision that totally disregarded safety. So I mean, great guy, epic voyage, but wrong decision, as I'm sure he realized later.

Warwick F:
So you made the right decision, you're heading North towards Cape Town. Another not funny, but somewhat amusing in hindsight incident, you put out this not mayday, I guess you call it Pan-Pan, an alert, things aren't looking good and this cargo ship comes up the Far Eastern Mercury or something, and they want to give you some fuel and there's a language barrier and they almost sink your boat. And it's like, I don't want to come up to between the fenders and the boat, that gives us not good, little boat, big boat don't mix. And eventually they got the picture, but that must've been frustrating. It's like, I know you're trying to help me, but you're about to sink my boat.

Lisa B:
Yeah. And I think that that whole experience with that container ship was more traumatizing to me than the demasting. The demasting, I didn't have time. I was just like, you have to fight and survive. Whereas the Far Eastern Mercury the collision that occurred between me and them and that whole horrible situation that occurred, which I'll get into in a second, that was a completely avoidable situation. And it was just unfathomable that they would even expect that. So the Far Eastern Mercury is a 200 meter long container ship. The side of the ships, 30 meters high, they weigh 86,000 tons and I'm a 50 foot yacht and I weigh 10 tons, and the side of my boat is 1.3 meters high. So in comparison, they're a skyscraper and I'm a tiny little dot on the ocean. And when I arrived, so they had diverted at the time of the emergency, under instructions from the rescue coordination center in South Africa.

Lisa B:
And all of this was unknown to me. I had issued a Pan-Pan to put people on alert that the situation could progress to be more disastrous. But given how remote I was, the rescue coordination center, unbeknown to me, upgraded me to a Mayday. And so they said they sent the ship down to help me, but the ship was three days away. So after the emergency, the initial emergency, and when I was limping to land, they asked if they could cancel the ship. And I said, oh, is there any chance they could do a fuel transfer at sea because I only had 200 liters on board and it'd get me close, but not close enough to get all the way to South Africa. If they could do a fuel transfer, that would be a huge help. So the ship agreed and they kept heading south and I kept going north and we rendezvoused three days later.

Lisa B:
Now we were still in 25-knots of wind and six meter swell. So it's still really large swell coming through. And when we arrived, they kept saying, come closer, come closer, we have fenders out. And their fenders were these two tires hanging off the side of the ship at waterline in the middle of the ship, on the starboard side. And basically the ship was rolling so much in this swell that one minute these fenders would be touching the water and the next minute they'd be 10 meters up in the air, and it was just like, they wanted me to tie up, bow and stern line to the side of the ship at these fenders. And if I had been silly enough to say yes, they would have lifted me clean out of the water and buckled the boat, snap me in half and sunk the boat.

Lisa B:
So it was this impossible thing and they were Korean speaking ship and it just ended up in disaster. It was a 12 hour saga of me standing off. It resulted in a collision between me and the ship, which did just as much or more damage than the initial demasting did. Yeah. And it was just this horrible, horrible situation. But yes-

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, everybody meant well, but there was a communication issue. You got the fuel-

Lisa B:
Exactly.

Warwick F:
So eventually head up to Cape Town and that's like, what? A couple months of refitting and you had to make a decision, okay, am I going to do this? And you obviously felt, okay, I want to finish. You've got a new mast and you're going to go back onto the race track at the point where you went north to finish. So were you tempted just to say, let's just pack it in, I've achieved something, but what made you want to finish this thing?

Lisa B:
I fell into a pretty heavy depression when it all came crashing down. And that's why I had to kind of keep that focus on next steps, next goal. And it wasn't until it occurred to me that I could go back, that I could restart the trip and do it with one stop that I actually felt like I had any kind of life again, or any energy or enthusiasm or I could smile again. And so that became my driving factor. How do I make it so I go back? How can I restart this voyage? And winter was closing in, so I only had a very short period of time to actually do a refit. I had zero money. I had to figure out how to borrow the money, find sponsors, work out a way to make it possible. And then I found this secondhand mast that had been sitting in a shed in South Africa for 15 years that happened to be okay-ish a fit for my boat, that I was able to pick up for 5,000 Australian.

Lisa B:
So I put that in the boat and it took me two months to get the damage and everything done. But I don't think at any one point I considered not going. I asked my meteorologist to do an extensive research into how bad was it going to be. When I left, it was a couple of weeks into winter. So I was expecting to be sailing into the world's most dangerous ocean through winter. And that in itself is just an unheard of factor. And I had so many people telling me, don't go, it's suicide. And I guess I had my Ernest Shackleton moment and and I was going-

Warwick F:
But I mean, I don't know. I think not to put him down, I think you deserve a bit more credit, but you had a whole team advising you. They were, they said this is dangerous, it's not easy, but it's doable. It wasn't... There's a difference.

Lisa B:
Yeah, and it's also this idea of an unknown risk that we put in our heads, this expected risk compared to the actual risk that was there, the real risk. And the weather patterns and everything that was presenting itself with the historical weather data, all of that, I'd already sailed through, the worst storm I had on the trip that I'd already sailed through, and we sailed through it really well was what every storm was going to be through the Southern ocean in winter. But I'd already done it once, it was possible. And the biggest concern for everyone was how much colder it was going to be. And the ice line was going to be much higher and the Antarctic convergence line was going to be much higher, which is the difference in the warm sea water and the cold sea water coming off Antarctica.

Lisa B:
So that was probably one of the greatest risks, but I had asked everyone who was telling me not to go, where was the historical weather data that said it was impossible. Because I wasn't making this decision willy-nilly, like, yes, I had this driving force that I wanted to do the trip, but I had done my research. I had justifiable reasons for thinking I'm capable of doing it, given what I'd already done and how well my boat had presented through these storms already. I knew it was possible. I just had to figure out what was I in for and prepare myself accordingly. So, yeah, so I left after the biggest storm in winter had hit South Africa in like 35 years or something. So in the back of that storm, I set off and I sailed south and I probably hit what I would consider my biggest crucible moment, my biggest moment of potential failure.

Lisa B:
The biggest thing I did was I got inside my head too much, and I allowed all the voices of all those people that were telling me I wasn't strong enough, I wasn't good enough, I'm just a girl, this a suicide. I let all those build and their voices built on my own rational, logical thinking fade. And it wasn't easy. I was getting my ass handed to me every day out there. And I was living in the eye of the most brutal storms ever to hit land or Australia, the size of hurricanes. And I was going through it every other day. And I was just getting absolutely smashed. And Climate Action Now is getting smashed. And to just give you an example of what that feels like, when you're inside the boat and you're not outside in these storms, because the force of the wave hitting you is just so extreme that it can rip you clean off the deck of the boat.

Lisa B:
And in fact, one square meter of breaking white water is one ton of pressure applied. So at this moment I was getting in the eye of these storms, 15 meter waves. So that's a five story building slamming into the side of the boat and the waves form kind of like mountains, they're not peaks, they're kind of rolling hills almost as they come through. But what happens is you get this rolling hill and the boat lifts up the hill as it's getting lifted by the wave, but the top three or four meters of the wave throws over like a beach break and breaks and ends up with this frothing wall of white water that's about two, three meters high. And so the boat's halfway up this peak of this wave and the white water hits you and it throws you to the bottom of the wave. And it's like slamming into cement. It's like getting hit by a Mack truck. And you come to a juddering halt and everything, like the g-forces. You can't even hold on inside the boat.

Lisa B:
So you've got to take extreme care, moving around the boat. I have body armor built into my base layers. I've got a crash helmet on board. Everything you're doing is trying to protect injury for these moments where you get slammed into the bottom of this wave. And then what happens is the rest of the wave hits. And so it hits you a second time and then it rolls you on your side and then it rolls you upside down. And sometimes all the way upside down, more often than not around 120, 130 degrees over. And then the wave's passed over you and the boat starts righting itself. So just the g-forces associated with it. And the difference this time also was that I had done all the right things again, but I'd done them the first time, but now I had this niggling sense of doubt that I'd done all the right things the first time and my mast still broke, what's going to go wrong this time? Even though I've done all the correct preparation and I've done everything I can possibly do to make it safer.

Warwick F:
It was an amazing moment that you write about where I think your mum sent you an email that somehow, like any mum, she's concerned for your safety, but there's been some critical moments in your journey, in your life where she said these incredibly wise things. So talk about what your mum said that really, it seemed to flip a switch or just, it seemed to really make a huge difference.

Lisa B:
Yeah. So I had been at sea for about five days and I'd only managed to get 200 miles. And I had a head cold, I was exhausted, I'd been seasick. I had all those doubters in my head and I just, I broke and I quit. In my mind I was like, it's impossible. All those people are right. I quit. I can't do it. I'm not strong enough. And I remember calling mum that afternoon, I'd almost been washed off the deck of the boat by this wave. And I literally had three quarters of my body outside the safety rail, getting dragged off the boat. And I managed to one arm about it, round a piece of equipment and keep me attached. And I called her up and I said, I can't do it, I'm just going to die out here. I can't do it.

Lisa B:
And so she said, okay, well, you can't do anything right now. I'm in the middle of this massive storm. She said, just wait till the morning, wait for the storm to break and then call me back. Let's have another chat. And in the meantime, mum had been thinking about, I spoke to her about this afterwards and she said to me, "I just couldn't imagine you would never forgive yourself if you quit in that moment, it would haunt you forever. You just wouldn't live with yourself. And I just remember thinking how much you would hate that later, if you let yourself quit now." And so she sent me this email and she said, "All right, well, just imagine that you're 72 days into your record. You've never demasted. You're one day ahead of the men's record, which I was at the time and Australia is four weeks away. And you're experiencing conditions like this. You're sick like you are at the moment and you're feeling like this. Would those conditions in that moment in time, if you never demasted, never had this stop, would that be enough to make you quit?"

Lisa B:
And I remember thinking about that and thinking, well, no, I would have been on day 72 of my trip, there's no way I'm quitting. And it was this concept that I had started a second trip by leaving South Africa, that I had changed the way I looked at things in my mind and I realized that I wouldn't have quit. And so I worked out a way to carry on and I effectively stalled the boat out through the center of these storms and just kept sort of bashing my way south and eventually was able to push through it and finish the record. But without that advice, I probably would have turned back to South Africa and thrown in the towel and gone, better lucks next time.

Gary S:
And this'll be a good time to say, I've listened to this show, to this interview like a listener and unlike any other guests we've had, Lisa, talk about crucibles. One after the other, after the other, after the other, after the other, after the other, after the other.

Lisa B:
Yeah.

Gary S:
And you say something in your book, you talked a lot about risk in the last little bit here. And you said something early in your book, page seven, I think it was. No, I'm sorry. This is later in your book, page 186, you said this about risk and about the advice you're getting. And I want listeners to hear this because what you're hearing is crucibles lapping like waves into Lisa's life as she's going through this experience, here's her perspective that she brought to this. This is what you wrote in Facing Fear. "I had known from the beginning of this journey that I might face scenarios that I couldn't have prepared for, challenges that could result in my death." Not everyone who has a crucible has that second sentence, but the first sentence, that you might face scenarios that you couldn't have prepared for. You went on. "I'd spoken with my family about this risk."

Gary S:
"They knew I was willing to accept it because I was following my dreams. I didn't want to let my fear of unknown factors stop me. Still, there was a vast difference between thinking about it or discussing it and actually facing it." You're a great example, and I want listeners to grab onto this example of knowing that you've run the plan, you have it set up, you keep hitting crucibles. You don't want fear to lead you to quit, but you also know the difference. You experienced the difference that you have to move forward, one foot in front of the other. Or insert nautical term here, you had to do that minute by minute, as you were going through these crucibles. That's what we all have to do in our own ways, going through our crucibles.

Lisa B:
Yes, most definitely. And it's again, it's that whole concept of, if you don't try you've already failed. And the crucibles or the moments of failure or the moments of self doubt. They're all learning opportunities. They're all chances where I can become stronger, where I can build my own resilience, where I can... And the big thing that I've found with all of this is that when I get past a crucible or a moment of failure, and I'm onto the next challenge, I'm stronger because I know I've already beat that moment. And so I know I can beat it again. And then when a new situation presents itself to me, and if I get past that, then I'm like, okay, well now I can do that as well. So then the next thing can't be as hard. And it's like with my demasting, a lot of people said to me, why would you want to go back?

Lisa B:
And the biggest thing that the demasting gave me, yes, it was like one of my greatest failure moments in time, but I was able to position it and turn it around into a success. But it also, it taught me that I could face those challenges. It gave me enough confidence in my ability to survive in the most extreme situations possible out on the ocean, that I know next time, if I have another situation occur similar to this, I'm capable of overcoming that because I've already done it once. And so it takes the question mark out of these scenarios and allows me to have the confidence or the knowledge that I can push through it because I've done it.

Warwick F:
And that's such an important point, is rather than seeing it as a failure, reframe... or your mother helped you reframe it to say, well, imagine you're still on the journey, you wouldn't quit. You had a whole... You write in the book, a whole team behind you. Obviously your mum was there, you had a meteorologist, some other fellow that was sort of your go-to person that you would say, okay, I've got this problem, I've got that problem, what do I do? Do you have any advice? It's the rigging company or the engine company, whoever it is, it's almost like a mission control for astronauts, right?

Lisa B:
Yes basically.

Warwick F:
You've got a whole mission control there. An army of people, it's like, okay, who's an expert in whatever it is. So you were reframing challenges that could have made you quit saying, okay, I've learned from this, I'll learn... next time, I'll be better equipped. So you get through that, you get back to Albany and talk about how you're entering Albany, going through the heads there. What was that feeling like? Yes, you'd made a stop, but you'd still gone around Antarctic, that was still a win, right? Because there aren't many people who've done that even with one-stop. So what was that feeling like when you entered Albany and five or six months later, including the two month stop in Cape Town? What was that feeling like when you went there, saw your family and your grandfather and they're all there. What was that feeling like?

Lisa B:
I mean, it was an incredible experience and the weather gods are always proving to just throw the last curve ball at you. So coming up to the finish line, the winds just died. I was actually five hours late for my own party because the weather just wanted to be an absolute nuisance to me. And I was so frustrated because all I wanted to do was cross that line and be able to just say, I've done it and it's finished and then I can focus on the future. And that last couple of weeks sailing, I was already planning the next challenge and the next challenge and the next challenge. And I was already creating this whole scenario of things I was going to go and do.

Lisa B:
So I crossed that line and my family... like nobody was there, I was on my own and a flare was let go on the other side of the bay when they could see that I'd crossed the line officially and then like literally a minute or so after I crossed that line and I drifted across the line, because there was not a breadth of wind, the new winds arrived. And it was just like this big challenge where the weather gods wanted to keep you because they were like, no, we're not going to help you across the line, you've got to work for it. And then the minute you cross the line, oh, here's the wind this'll help. So I sailed into the harbor and as I sailed, it was nighttime. So it was about 8:00 PM at night. And I was sailing down and as I was going more and more boats started joining this kind of little welcome flotilla and my family were on a little motorboat nearby and they started shouting and screaming and everyone's waving.

Lisa B:
And it was this whole sense of elation that you get. I don't think I imagined the arrival. I didn't really know what to expect when I got there and because I was so late, I was like, oh yeah, there might be 10 people on the dock, my family and one or two media personnel. I just didn't expect it. And as I sailed into the harbor, someone shouted out from a boat nearby. There was about 12 boats or so out with me, "Look up, look up." And I looked up and there's this lookout overlooking the harbor. And up in the lookout, there was about, I don't know, 20 or 30 cars. Apparently they'd all been sitting out there for five hours waiting for me to arrive, tooting their horns and flashing their car lights and shouting and screaming, and just welcoming me into the town of Albany.

Lisa B:
So that was so special. And then I docked the boat and the whole dock was just chockers, I'm surprised it didn't sink, but it was just chockers with people and media. And I kind of answered a few questions from the deck of the boat and then I was like, "I've got to get off this boat." And so I jumped down onto the dock and my family still went there because they were trying to come in on this other motorboat. And I was like, "Where's my family? Where's my family?" And yeah. And then finally found the family and gave everyone a really big hug and it was chaos, but it was a beautiful form of chaos.

Warwick F:
And just for US audience chockers is short for chockablock, which means really crowded. So-

Gary S:
Thank you. I had no idea.

Warwick F:
I had to do a double translation there, but an epic moment. So that was special. Then you had to get the boat back to Sydney. You pull into Sydney Harbor and into... it's funny, I was reading about Rushcutters Bay, which is funny because I grew up in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney, Double Bay, which is like two or three minutes away between Double Bay and Rushcutters bay. So like, oh, I know exactly where that is. So you do that, you go on to do 2017 all female crew, Sydney to Hobart. You do around the Australia trip. And at least the end of the book, like about the last line, it's like, yep, I want to go back, as you've mentioned, to do around Antarctica and people would say, well, why would you want to do that?

Warwick F:
But you've obviously... it's like, well, I can do this now. I got this electrolysis thing down. I understand this. So people listening to this would say, well, I'm not Lisa Blair, I'm not this hero. I'm not brave. I can't do this epic thing. I'm just a normal human being. It's funny. I think, I don't know if it's the... I'm trying to think what it is. It might be people in the US that get in the military, the Congressional Medal of Honor, which is in Australia, the equivalent would be the Victoria Cross. And I think the motto of the society of the US Congressional Medal of Honor society is something like ordinary people doing the extraordinary. And it's hard for most of us to think, oh, well, I'm not... who of us could be Victoria Cross people and save your buddy that's near you in war and it's like, oh, that's just...

Warwick F:
But I mean, can you identify that with that in a sense that I'm not saying you're ordinary, you feel like extraordinary, but some people hearing this story say well, I'm not Lisa Blair, I'm not this hero with supernatural perseverance and calm and intelligence in the midst of dire crisis, and I'd go to pieces. And a lot of people might say that to you, you're this super human, superwoman type of person, oh, that's not me because I'm just an average bundle of nerves and fears. And what do you say to those people who say, oh, well, I'm not super human like you, Lisa. How do you answer those people?

Lisa B:
Yeah, it's funny because I had a recent debate with a really good friend of mine like a week ago or so around this topic specifically, because I said to her, anyone can do what I did. There's zero about me that's unique or special. I'm five foot two, I'm not built like an Amazon warrior. I don't have any special skills except that I'm dedicated and focused. And she said to me, "The minute you say that you've lost me." And I was like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "The minute you say that you're not different from me, you've lost me." And I was like, "Well, that's how I feel." And she said the one thing that I should be saying instead of saying that anyone can do it, is that anyone can learn to do it, because it wasn't something that I woke up and one day could do, it was something I learned to do.

Lisa B:
And I think that that's an important distinction that I've now taken on as part of my mentality with it all, because I really struggle when people try and put me on a pedestal or try and make me different because I really honestly don't feel different. I feel like an average, like I've said before, Joe Blow I'm just your normal person. I've done some absolutely extraordinary things, but they're opportunities that opened because people could see my perseverance and they could see my dedication to what I was trying to achieve, but it wasn't like I woke up one day and said, I'm going to sail around Antarctica. I'm going to become this record setting sailor. It was a series of small events and small learnings and moments in time that shaped my values and my beliefs and crucibles and these opportunities. These things that I got past.

Lisa B:
And I remember one of the biggest moments of that was when I did the clipper race around the world, and this is an amateur race. Anyone can sign up to do it. You pay the berth fee, you sign up, you race around the world. And I remember finishing that race and just being amazed that I'd done it, that I had been able to get the funding and gone and raced around the world. And two years earlier, I'd never even thought about crossing an ocean, and here I was a circumnavigator. And I remember asking myself in that moment, well, if I can do this, what else can I do? What else is possible? And it was that attitude that really allowed me to kind of progress and become bigger and try these different challenges. But it didn't start with just one big challenge, it was this growth that I went on.

Lisa B:
And so I think the biggest thing I can give to any of the listeners here today is you can learn to do it. Anyone can learn to do it, but you've got to want to learn, and you can allow your opinions of yourself to dictate your outcome, or you can change your opinion of yourself and go, okay, well, I can't do that yet, but maybe one day I can. And how do I get from here to there? And what are the steps involved and how do I break it down?

Warwick F:
What you're saying, I mean, there's some profound truths that you're saying. I have to confess I'm inclined to agree with you, Lisa, not your friend, nothing against your friend.

Lisa B:
Yes.

Warwick F:
Sorry, friend. But here's why, because anybody can change their thinking. We can't control our height or where we were born. A lot of things we can't control in life, but you change... I don't want to say change, but you have this way of thinking that anything is possible, a sense of perseverance, a sense of learning, taking step by step. I mean, it's not like you wake up... you wouldn't wake up at age 12 and say, great, I know nothing about sailing, hey, let's go sail around Antarctica. That would be dumb.

Lisa B:
Never even thought.

Warwick F:
Because you weren't old enough, didn't have the experience at that point. It was probably never on a boat or certainly never really meaningfully contributed at that age, but it's a step by step. When you took the trip to Hawaii, okay, boy, that's a big voyage. Maybe I can do this around the world, clipper race. Gee, I did that. Okay. Maybe I can do a solo race to New Zealand. The step by step by step. Each goal a bit more challenging than the last, but each goal preparing you for the next. The sense of perseverance, the sense of I'm willing to fail. Most people aren't willing to fail. If I don't get the funding, great, but I'm going to try.

Warwick F:
I'm going to put myself in a position where I'm willing to fall short. I hope I'm not, but I'm going to go for it. I'm going to ask. Everybody can do those things. Step by step, having a dream and saying, it's okay if I fail so long as I've tried my best. So there's certain ways of thinking that you have maybe not everybody wants to go around Antarctica, but whether it's in business, starting a non-profit, helping a neighbor. The thinking that you applied, anybody can use that thinking. I mean, does that make sense?

Lisa B:
Yeah. And I think that's the biggest lesson I try and contribute to people when I share my story is, we can restructure how we think, or we can restructure what our goals are to create the future that we want. And that's coming back to that car ride to uni, that was probably the first moment where I applied some of that thinking. And I saw the success out of it because I became authentically me and I was able to move past that. And so I think anyone has that capability, but it's about you as an individual, identifying that as a skill inside you and then using it as a skill.

Lisa B:
And when you do it once, even in a small way and the smallest thing you could do and go, okay, I've always been hesitant to try this. I'm just going to do this one thing, sign up to a social evening event, whatever it is, and then go, okay, well that wasn't so bad, what can I do next? And it's that constant question that I ask myself, what's next? And I'm always striving and trying to work towards the next big goal. And yeah, so I think that it's an incredible lesson that I can share to people. And I really hope that others listening and who are reading my book can actually find that and take that on board for themselves.

Warwick F:
And that's a good place as we kind of bring to this to a conclusion. People may not be able to identify with Lisa Blair going around Antarctica, but I think a lot of folks, young people who maybe they were bullied in high school, you mentioned you were dyslexic, had a lisp. You were standing up for people that others didn't and protecting people, animals, but you were going to reframe how people saw you when you went to university. For a lot of people, certainly in the US, they go to college. That's not an uncommon thing. And some people don't have a great experience in high school. That's a fairly relatable example you reframed, but that was the first step on your journey to not being defined by other people's views of you, reframing how you would approach things, how you'd be seen. And that step led to many others from Hawaii to around the world clipper race to Antarctica. So they were all steps on the journey.

Lisa B:
The other thing I think that's really important is that if you're looking for opportunity, you'll find opportunities. So if you're not looking for this change, if you're not putting yourself out there and trying to seek these opportunities, you're not going to see them when they're presented to you because you'll be too narrow-minded or to focused on your current goal, that you won't see the opportunity around the corner. And coming back to that trip to Hawaii, I never planned for that to turn into what it did or for me to become a sailor after that, but that was an opportunity I couldn't ignore because it was just such a cool sense of adventure.

Lisa B:
And it was, I could have easily turned around and said, oh no, no, I've got my exams for my education degree coming up soon with the board of education in Australia. And I could have postponed the trip and said no, and gone with this education life very easily and be justifiably able to do that. But instead, I had identified the opportunity and I took it and that's led me on this amazing path. So I think the other thing people need to be aware of is that when opportunities do present themselves, don't say no to those doors that open.

Gary S:
This is the time in the show, and I've been waiting for a long time to say, normally I say at this time in the show, it's getting to be time to land the plane. But I can't say that today, of course, because it's time to dock the boat.

Lisa B:
Yeah.

Gary S:
We're getting to the point that it's time to dock the boat. But before we do that, Lisa, I would be remiss if I did not give you the chance, particularly with Climate Action Now, still doing things, how people can reach you, how they can connect to Climate Action Now, how they can help you in your cause.

Lisa B:
Yeah. Awesome. So I'm still actively collecting post-it note messages. So as Warwick pointed out, I'm planning on going back around Antarctica. So I'm looking to set off at the end of 2021 to do the circumnavigation again. I'm hoping to do citizen science on board the boat as well, taking microplastic samples, water salinity, things like that, so that I can contribute a little bit more back to this message. But if you want to get involved, you can go to my website, which is LisaBlairsailstheworld.com, and you can fill out a form on there under the Climate Action Now tab and make a post-it note. And then your messages will get on the boat for the very next record as a sail around Antarctica. So that's a pretty cool way to get involved in the trip. And the other thing you can do is just share it, talk about it, tell your friends about me. I've got this fabulous book here that you can get.

Gary S:
Look at that.

Warwick F:
Lisa, that is a great cover.

Lisa B:
Yeah.

Warwick F:
So yeah, Facing Fear. I mean, that's pretty relatable, right? Who doesn't have fear in their life? Every human being.

Gary S:
Well, Lisa, you should know I have my sticky notes with me and I'm a big superhero guy. So there I've got Superman there. I will be doing that. Warwick, I'll give you the last word and then I'll close this up with some takeaways.

Warwick F:
Well, Lisa, thanks so much for being here. I mean, your story is so inspirational. I mean, I would read each page and it's like the storms and these preventer lines, which again, obviously I don't know exactly what it is, but reading about jibes and beam reaches and all. I got to put these patches on the sails and the engine keeps going up that gives you electricity to boil water. And every day is like this, you get up and you do it all over again. And I'm like, how does she do this? But it's, you have this dream and it's just one step, one step.

Warwick F:
And it's easy for people to look at this and say, oh, I'm not Lisa Blair, I'm not this unbelievable person, but it's the way of thinking that you have of seeking opportunity, of getting help from your team, of having perseverance, of being willing to fail, being willing to fail means you're willing to succeed. If you're not willing to fail, you'll never succeed at anything. And so it's those key elements of your mindset that I think everybody can learn from. So don't think of, oh, I'm not going to sail around Antarctica, there's nothing for me to learn. Your message in this book can help you face your fears and achieve your dreams. So it's more than just about sailing. It's really a parable, if you will, that I think everybody can learn from.

Gary S:
And in light of that, here from this robust discussion that we've had with Lisa, here's three takeaways I got from the episode. I'm probably very short on takeaways. There are probably many more than three, but here are three takeaways from this discussion between Lisa Blair and Warwick about how to overcome your crucible applied in her life and in her situation, but I think applicable to all of us. Number one, Lisa said very early on in this discussion that you need to ask yourself two deep and meaningful questions. And she didn't phrase it like that, all she said was that she asked herself these two questions and they were, are you happy, and are you doing what you're supposed to do? If not, you can start today to change your answers. You can step into who you are, the authentic you at any time.

Gary S:
And that is the start of a journey you'll not only enjoy taking, but one that you can take that will make a difference, not just for you, but for others, as Lisa's journey has done. The second takeaway point. We've talked about this a lot, reframe failure. It's not falling short, it's failing to try. I'll say it again. It's not falling short, it's failing to try. Not a single goal was ever achieved by giving up, by giving into the fear of falling short. Dreams always die every single time when they aren't even attempted, but when you give it a go, anything is possible. And the third point I would leave you with listener, from this conversation is this, humans think plans are a good thing. Guess what? Crucibles don't agree. They are no respecter of the things we do in pursuit of a goal, in service to our vision. When a crisis hits, getting through it often requires altering your plans.

Gary S:
That was certainly what Lisa had to do. If you adjust to your circumstances, you'll have a better chance of succeeding than if you try to outrun your circumstances. Doing so not only preserved Lisa's journey, it may have just saved her life. So thank you listener, for joining us on Beyond the Crucible. We have a couple of favors to ask you, Warwick, and I do. One would be to tell your friends if you've enjoyed the show, especially this conversation with Lisa, tell your friends about it. And secondly, hit subscribe on the podcast app in which you're listening to the show right now. What that'll do is help us reach more folks with stories like this, with inspiration like this, with hope and healing like this, as well as allow us to reach even more folks who are out there.

Gary S:
So until the next time we're together, listener, thank you for spending time with us and do remember this truth, unpacked so vividly in the story of Lisa Blair, that our crucibles can come in bundles and they are very painful. Sometimes they can feel unrelenting, sometimes they can feel like... they can make us feel like we're done, we want to give up. But if you persevere, if you push through, if you learn the lessons of them, they're not only survivable, they are, if I can make up a word, thrivable, you can thrive beyond them. And the great thing about them is your crucibles, as you learn the lessons of them, are not the end of your story. They are, in fact, as they have been for Lisa, the beginning of a new story, a better story, because that story leads to a life of significance.

She’s known internationally as the first woman to sail solo around Antartica, a celebrated explorer who fought through unimaginable trials en route to setting her world record. But before she ever stepped foot off dry land, Lisa Blair was a shy, reserved Australian girl bullied at school. She headed off to university determined to shed the mask she wore in high school, and later learned the importance of viewing failure not as falling short, but not trying at all. She found her life’s calling when a sailing journey with a friend led her to fall in love with the sea … and the beauty and adventure it offers.

To learn more about Lisa Blair and her book, Facing Fear, visit www.lisablairsailstheworld.com

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

—

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Lisa B:
So I left and I remember casting of the lines. And there was this moment of complete panic, because I hadn't.. I'd been visualizing leaving, and I'd been visualizing all the things that could possibly go wrong out there. And the Southern Ocean is well known as the world's most dangerous ocean. And that's because, effectively, there's no landmass down there to break up the storms. So as a storm rolls around the bottom of the ocean, it goes the entire way around the planet.

Lisa B:
And it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and more aggressive as it goes. And it creates this unique swell, where you can have waves the size of houses or more, just on a daily basis. That's your average swell. So it's this incredibly dangerous place to be in. And as part of my preparation process, I've been visualizing all these scenarios that could occur from knockdowns to rollovers to breaking masts to hitting an iceberg to hitting a sunken container to flooding the boat to losing the keel to getting myself injured.

Lisa B:
And so I was thinking about all these possible scenarios. And when I finally left, it just kind of crashed into me that, you know, "Hang on, I'm now having to do this. It's no longer this thing I'm visualizing. It's not this thing I'm imagining. It's something I'm actively going out and doing right now." And I then had to remind myself that I had done the preparation because I was terrified. I started shaking, I started hyperventilating, I was choking on my air, and I just was freaking out completely. And I had to take a couple of calming breaths and remind myself that I prepared for this, that I'd worked really hard for this and that I could do it.

Gary S:
Indeed, she could do it. A quest so monumental, that it's going to take us two episodes, to tell you all about its twists and turns and triumphs. Hi I'm Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership.

Gary S:
Today's guest is Lisa Blair, who in 2017 became the first woman to sail solo around Antarctica. You'll discover as she discusses every harrowing and heroic moment of that record setting adventure that even with all her planning and training, Mother Nature had a few surprises for her, like storms so bad that her sailboat lost its mast and Lisa could have lost her life.

Gary S:
Many of the details of her circumnavigation of Antarctica will come in part two of the interview next week. Today's show focuses on the crucibles Lisa faced before she ever left dry land, being bullied in school for being shy and reserved, and how she refused to live a life defined by others opinions of her. That's when she discovered she tells us her love of sailing. By redefining failure not, as falling short of a goal but failing to try; this self described ordinary woman has accomplished extraordinary things. She documents them in her new book Facing Fear. And in this conversation with Warwick that covers it all. From stem to stern.

Warwick F:
Well, Lisa it is so exciting to have you. When I got the book, it was like reading a thriller. I've read it in pretty much one sitting. I knew because you were coming on the podcast that you made it, so that was obviously good. And I think as you've mentioned that wouldn't be a book if you hadn't made it. So thankfully, it's hard to believe that actually happened. But it's obviously it did. It was so compelling, so exciting. And you have a lot of sailing terminology and I'm one of those people that knows pretty much nothing about sailing.

Warwick F:
So I'm like, okay, this... I get jibing and tacking, some vague idea. Preventer lines, not totally clear about that, but obviously, I'm sure we'll get into it. But sadly, I get seasick just looking at water. I'm just one of these landlubbers, but just a little Australian history here. Obviously, as most Australians know my family were involved in newspaper business, Sydney Morning Herald and all for generations. Well, I had a great grandfather that was Commodore of the Royal Sydney Yacht Squadron. And supposedly he had some great big steam yacht and I don't know if that's even possible, probably 1890's, 1900's. Some big thing with a crew. Anyway, but kind of the genes didn't carry on to me.

Warwick F:
So in fact, I get so seasick if I get seasick that it takes me days to recover. So it's probably not an adventure I'll be seeking. But all that being said, obviously love to hear about your whole Antarctic journey. But I'd like to hear some of the backstory. You talk a bit about in your book about growing up with your parents and, school being tough, being bullied a bit. Just talk about what life was like for you growing up and the pre-sailing Lisa Blair, if you will.

Lisa B:
Well firstly, I just want to say thanks so much for having me on the show. It's going to be a great chat today. I'm so happy that you love the book. And hopefully other people can get out and have a read of it too at some point. As far as my childhood goes, I was landlocked. So I grew up on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia. So we had this property that was about 30 minutes from the beach, but it was a little bush property, it was all solar powered. And we would pump the water up from the creek and we would have a selection of either rainwater or creek water, which we aptly dubbed, given that we're Aussie platypus piss or leaf stew, so you would choose between the two different types of water.

Warwick F:
It was great.

Lisa B:
It's very Aussie right? So that was kind of my childhood. We didn't have TV really, we were allowed a movie a week, which was a family night, and we would run the generator so that we could run the washing machine. And we would have a movie at that time. And occasionally would be allowed, like half an hour of TV in the evening. But I think the best thing about that childhood whilst as a kid, it did set me on the outs as far as not being cool enough, not having seen the latest TV shows, and not fitting in as much with schools. It did allow me really to create a sense of imagination and a sense of dreaming and build capabilities, I think that have served me really well through life by having that slightly more unusual childhood.

Lisa B:
So I definitely thank you to my parents for having that. And yeah, and then that's led me on the path to challenges and adventures, which eventually led me to discover sailing when I was 22, and I've just randomly got a job in the Whitsundays.

Warwick F:
So before we get to, I think one of the things you mentioned is, as you're going to uni, I think it was Southern Cross University which probably it more of northern New South Wales. While before then school wasn't easy, and just how kids treated you. But it felt like you made a purposeful decision, then that you were going to, I don't know about big different, approach it differently. So talk about, because that was sort of a mini decision that, obviously it helps us as we get on in life. So talk about what was that decision you made as you were going to uni?

Lisa B:
Yes. So it was a four hour drive from where we grew up to where I was going to uni. So I was driving down in the car with mum. And just in the car, I just remember thinking about where I was at that moment in time, as far as who I was, and was I happy and was I doing what I wanted to do. And I remember feeling like, high school, everyone knows who you are. So if you're the girl that was bullied, you're always going to be the girl that was bullied. Getting out of that is really hard to do.

Lisa B:
And so when I was going to uni, the last thing I wanted to do was to continue being that girl, that person that was sort of more reserved, hiding in the art studio, not quite being who I wanted to be, a bit of a loner, not many friends. And then the friends I did have weren't even in my age range. So I made a conscious decision as we drove down in the car and I remember thinking, Well, this isn't a life I envisioned for myself and that's the life I was leading. But because I'm changing states, and because I'm changing locations, I have this really unique opportunity to project myself or position myself in a different way. Because in my mind, nobody down there actually knew who I was.

Lisa B:
So they didn't have this preconceived opinion of me being the girl that was always bullied, or the loner that was the outcast. So when I drove down, I decided that I wanted to be this bubbly, outspoken, outgoing, fun loving person. And it was a pretty terrifying decision to make, but it was a conscious decision. And so when I actually arrived, the first thing I did, I walked right up to my new flatmates in the share accommodation I said, "Hi, I'm Lisa," and just started projecting this kind of person that I always felt I was, but hadn't really had the chance to show people yet.

Lisa B:
And the four years or five years that I was at uni, it was really a huge growth for me as a person. And I was really fortunate with my friendship circle down there that they really allowed me and pushed me to expand out of that preconceived idea of the girl that was always isolated or lonely, or the girl who was bullied. So it really set me up for future careers.

Warwick F:
It's funny, I think one of the things we often find on Beyond the Crucible is, it's this early life stories that can be such, I won't say it's an origin story as they say in movies. It can be like little clues to who Lisa Blair became later. I know obviously we grew up very differently. I grew up in about as wealthy upbringing as it's possible in Australia, but because my family, we're in this big family media business deal, the other kids, the other boys went to a boys school. They weren't like me and so I was like, "Oh, you know, because Australians are very much into egalitarian tall poppy syndrome," which basically means if you stick your head up, it gets cut off, unless you... If you're good at sports, it's okay. But if you're good at any other area, somehow, you must be arrogant by definition.

Warwick F:
So, a little bit like you in the sense, I was a bit of a loner, but I think it's okay if that means being who you are, and not just going with the crowd and doing what everybody else does. That's not wrong, it's just you got to figure out your own path and what that means to you. So I think there are lessons for a lot of people about how you handled that saying, Okay, I'm not going to go with, I want to be not quite so isolated, but I'm not going to just be who everybody wants me to be.

Lisa B:
Yeah.

Warwick F:
I dream, I have thoughts, I have ambitions, and that's okay. I'm not going to just be some hanger on of some group, just because-

Lisa B:
And I think also at that age you have some really strong principles, and it's very easy to get swept up in what everyone else is doing and not live by your principles. And I remember a lot of the bullying started when I would stand up for people teasing animals or picking on other people and things like that. And so it was from me being as true to myself that the bullying actually started. So I think that that's really important. And I think for anyone out there that might have gone through that or is going through that, you can create your own circumstances. So if people are bullying you, you can let that beat you or you can position it differently and actually allow that to make you stronger and allow that to allow you to then go out and help other people and come a better person from it.

Gary S:
I was gonna jump in and say, just to pull together what Warwick just said and what you just said Lisa. And it's a key principle of Crucible leadership, and that is authenticity. Being the authentic you. It took Warwick, it took you to go through the failure of the takeover of the family business to step out of the vision that was cast that you inherited, that was passed on to you. And that's where you found your stride and found yourself and it sounds Lisa like you, the same thing happened.

Gary S:
You were not living authentically, you stepped into that. You made a decision one day, I'm going to be who I've always felt I was inside, but I never felt I really could express all that well.

Lisa B:
Yeah.

Gary S:
And you began to do that and it changed. And for listeners who hear that, that's an important thing to remember. Authenticity can often be a key first step to moving beyond and getting through a crucible.

Warwick F:
Absolutely and staying true to your values, which is exactly what Lisa did, which is so impressive at such a young age. So I want to talk a bit about speaking of origin stories, the sailing origin story. You mentioned, I don't know if it's while I was at uni or maybe afterwards, you had experience of the Whitsunday Islands. But there was this epic trip that you did with a friend and maybe her parents that was Australia to Hawaii, which is, and it's got to be hundreds and hundreds of miles. It's not a short trip. But was that one of those early key moments in which you found "This is something that I love to do, that I was born to sail." Was that part of one of those early steps?

Lisa B:
Yeah, most definitely. So I randomly got a job in the Whitsunday Islands just for a summer holiday job as the cook and the cleaner on a charter yacht. And that really was my first key discovery into sailing. I had been on boats as a kid and my mom's partner John, he had a boat when I was growing up, but it was never something I did. It was always something they did, and it was this external thing to me.

Lisa B:
And so I had been working on these charter yachts for about a year and I was just loving it. And I never visioned or envisioned that sailing would be more than just a summer holiday or a fun thing to do on the odd occasion. Like I really had absolutely no plans to do anything with sailing at this point. And I was studying visual arts and education at uni with the plan of becoming an art teacher. It was just so left field from anything that I had envisioned.

Lisa B:
And then I had to go back and finish two weeks of uni. And so I finished the last two weeks of university, graduated. And then a week after I finished, I got this phone call out of the blue and it was a friend of mine from uni and she was sailing to Hawaii with her father on their boat. And they had a crew member had to leave in Samoa. And so they called me up and said, "Hey, do you think you can get here in a week? We're sailing to Hawaii. Are you interested?" And me being me, jumped on the opportunity, and said, "Yes."

Lisa B:
I had only ever left the country once before, and so I had to figure out how to make it possible in a week and then jumped on a plane and flew to Samoa, and then we sailed to Hawaii. And that trip really shaped my love of ocean sailing. I remember one of the first nights at sea, we were just sailing out. And I've never done night watch, I've never stood a watch in the darker and I think like that, and there was just this magic moment on deck keeping watch everyone else is sleeping. It was the middle of the night, crystal clear skies, and this couple of whales just popped up around the boat.

Lisa B:
And it was a dark night you couldn't see them. But you could just hear them breathing and coasting through the waters. For me, it was this really incredible moment of just peace. And I realized through sailing, well through our normal lives, we're so rush, rush, rush. Everything's busy. We've got a billion things going on. We're always contactable on our phones, we've got have them close. It's just this constant rush. And I just felt the minute I got out to sea, it was this simplified, almost basic lifestyle kind of camping on the water where your entire world revolves around, eat, sleep and sail. And what's the weather pattern going to do. And for me, I've just loved it. And there's so much beauty out there. So, yeah. It definitely shaped my wanting to do more with sailing.

Warwick F:
At that point, it sounds like you fell in love with sailing and, "I was made to do this. I was made to sail." Was there that kind of feeling that this is, I think you said it was your happy place. But it's some there's something about that really, I don't know. It was like a song that sung to your soul or something. I can't think of the exact metaphor, but did it feel like this is your place, this is your element?

Lisa B:
Yeah, it definitely did. But it also like sailing is still hard. Every day is a challenge because you've got to breathe and live and survive in this environment we're not designed for. So I think I also really relish the challenge of having to get from country to country, just harnessing the power of the wind and how do you do that and what's the process that makes that possible? And, we had engine issues, how do you fix an engine at sea where you've got no spare parts? I think the owner of the boat made a muffler out of a tin can at one point. And it was just this huge adventure and I relished in that opportunity, but I also just found a bit of my soul.

Gary S:
And one of the things I love that you write in your book Lisa, about that experience, and this is a perfect time to bring it in. Because you're talking about these extraordinary adventures. And you write about reading the stories of other folks who have had adventures on the seas. And you wrote why you became fascinated with it. And I want listeners to hear why the adventures you read were fascinating to you. "I became fascinated by these adventures, and I realized how relatable these people were. There was actually nothing special about them. They just found their dream, set themselves a goal and worked very hard to achieve it. It just so happened, that their goals were extraordinary."

Gary S:
That can apply to anybody listening to this show right now. You have done extraordinary things, but from the beginning, you have not viewed yourself as necessarily extraordinary. You're just someone who has a dream, is working hard at it.

Lisa B:
Yeah, and I honestly feel like that's applicable to all areas of your life as well. It doesn't have to be a record, it doesn't have to be this. It could be a business goal. It could be a family oriented goal, it could be the goal of buying your first house. Like that mentality is really applicable to anything that people achieve in their life or that they want to achieve in their life. And the one thing I do really try and highlight is that, I don't feel different from anybody else because of my achievements. I feel like your average Joe Blow and I still can't spell to save my life. I still, get me trying to add math and I'm going to fail.

Lisa B:
I don't have this special set of skills, but what I have is passion and focus and determination and sticking power. And so when things do get hard and when those crucible moments come through, I stick to it until I can push myself through it. And I guess that's my real superpower the fact that I'm stubborn.

Warwick F:
What I mean, you have dreams, and you were willing to go from, you were willing to risk failure, you were willing to try. I mean, one great example sort of next step on the journey perhaps is the 2011/12 Round the World Clipper Yacht Race. I think one of the things you write is that you, it was... I forget how much was. It was 60,000. I forget how much money, it was a massive amount of money and you only had half the amount to do the training part. And your mum said, "well, you can at least do that. And then maybe you'll figure out how to raise the rest." I mean, it's this sense of I'm not quitting just because I'm halfway there. So talk about because, that's a microcosm of something a lot of us can learn as you weren't willing to quit, just because it was hard to get into this round the world race.

Lisa B:
Yeah, and I think one of the biggest things I did to myself or one of the biggest benefits I gave myself was that, I reframed failure in my mind. And failure was the not going for the goal. That was the failure, because if you didn't start something, then you've already failed. Whereas if I go for the goal and I put 100% of my effort in, and I've literally tried everything I can think of to make it successful and to make it work. And I've explored every avenue and possibility, and I still fail, then that's just a lesson, that's just a learning curve. And from there, you can move on.

Lisa B:
But if you don't even try, then that's to me like the real failure. So in that book, I do talk about breaking down in tears to my mum telling her how much I failed. And how that I haven't got enough money and that I should just pull out now and it's never going to work. And I had this kind of intense moment of doubt, and self fear and mum has always been a really incredible moral compass for me, and she's been able to reef point me back in the right direction or she takes the emotion out of it so I can think logically about where I am and the situation.

Lisa B:
And my ultimate goals for signing up for that yacht race was to get experience to learn how to sail properly, and to get enough experience to one day want to try solo sailing. So by going and doing the training, at least I'm getting that knowledge. And then it's just that whole well who knows, I still had a few months, and I wasn't sure what was going to happen, but at least I continued to try and you know, it worked out in the end.

Warwick F:
Yeah. And what you're saying is so profound, is reframing failure, I think failure is not trying if you try and give it 100%, that's not failing. I mean, I haven't heard a whole lot of people define or redefine failure that way. It gives you the freedom to try, because if you try, it's not so much failing you've given it your all, it's just a brilliant way of putting it. So that gave you some experience and money came in for you to, as you met some folks probably in England, just amazing things happen when you put yourself out there. And I really believe miracles happen. And you've had your share of miracles, or people the last moment coming across and saying, "Here Lisa," it's unbelievable. But you write about it's obviously true.

Lisa B:
Yeah, and it's also one of those things that people often say, "Oh, you're so lucky." And I'm like, "It's not luck, you create your own luck." If you put yourself out enough times, someone's going to see that and someone's going to step up and help you and support you, and try and help get you to the next step. People want others to succeed, people want those around them to succeed. They don't want them to fail, and so everyone is there to help you. It's how much you try, that actually creates that help and opens those doors and opens those opportunities.

Lisa B:
No much is given for free in life, but you can create those opportunities by trying. And that was the real lesson that I got out of the Clipper Race was that, when people really started to see me put the effort in and I had sacrificed so much of my time and my energy and every cent I had earned in the last 12 months to go into this event. And people saw that, and the dedication and the drive to succeed. They then turned around and helped and I was able to get that money and then set off and did this incredible adventure.

Warwick F:
Again, another profound point you made your own luck by putting yourself out there, people do actually want to help other people. Somebody that has a goal and a dream is willing to work hard. Whether it's Dick Smith or a number of others, it's kind of a coincidence. We had another Aussie on the podcast a little bit ago, Ryan Campbell, who probably you heard of, flew around the world solo youngest at 23. And he was at a young and didn't really know what you weren't supposed to do. So he also went to Dick Smith and got some funding. And amazingly for US audience, Dick Smith has founded this massive electronics business. It's a bit like Best Buy here.

Warwick F:
And so when I read that, it's like "Oh, Dick Smith, I know another guy that obviously supports a lot of adventures. So let's move ahead a bit, because I want to get to the Antarctic journey. So there was a couple lead ups to that. The Trans-Tasman deal going solo from Australia to New Zealand and back. That was obviously not easy. It seems like there aren't too many oceans that are calm all the time, like none. Maybe it wasn't Antarctica, but it wasn't like a milk pond, it was pretty tough. And then from there you do the 2015 Sydney to Hobart race, which people might not realize here, but it starts in Sydney Harbour and you get a great view near the heads and goes to Hobart, you got to cross the Bass Strait.

Warwick F:
That's, not every boat makes it. There are some boats that have been lost and it's not an easy thing. So all of that's preparing you for this epic Antarctic journey. So, solo sailing is one thing. So you preparing yourself with the Trans-Tasman deal and the Sydney to Hobart. Why sail around Antarctica? Why not do a solo race through the Pacific or somewhere where it's warm? I don't know. Why antarctica?

Lisa B:
You know, you're not the first person to say that. A lot of people would actually tell me, "Why don't you sail around Australia first? Do that trip, that's got to be easier, right?" And I always thought sailing solo around Australia was actually 10 times harder than sailing solo around Antarctica, because you're close to land the entire time. Remember you're on your own. You've got to keep a lookout for all the ships, all the reefs, rocks, changing weather patterns, all the traffic that's out there.

Lisa B:
The worst is the little guys who go out on their fishing tinny in this fiberglass fishing boat with no radar reflector and no AIS and you just can't see them till you're almost on top of them. So sailing around Australia solo, you can't sleep more than 20 minutes at a time for the entire trip. So it is more dangerous than it is more difficult. Whereas Antarctica, it was actually a guy I was trying to convince to lend me his boat to sail to New Zealand for the Trans-Tasman Yacht race because I didn't own a boat. And he had this racing 40 foot yacht that I was trying to charter off him or borrow or beg borrow or steal.

Lisa B:
And he threw out the idea that maybe if I combine this Trans-Tasman Yacht race with a bigger project and combine the two together, I might have a shot at getting sponsorship for it. And then I could look at buying his boat which is suitable for this other trip rather than chartering it. So I looked into it and he said, "Oh, there's this record I was looking at doing before I had a family and it's this Antarctica record, you should look it up, Fyodor Konyukhov."

Lisa B:
And so I looked it up, and there's this crazy Russian sailor in 2008, who sailed solo nonstop and unassisted around Antarctica, from Albany to Albany, which is located in the bottom tip of Western Australia. And he sailed directly south to 45 degrees south and then completed the whole circumnavigation between the latitudes of 45 south and 60 south in the Southern Ocean. And this guy who was trying to convince me to buy his boat was telling me to go and challenge this record.

Lisa B:
And at this stage, I'd sailed around the world with The Clipper Round The World Yacht Race. So I had sailed 40,000 nautical miles and a fair stint of that is in the Southern Ocean. And we did have some fairly decent storms coming through in the Southern Ocean. So I had a really healthy respect for how dangerous that ocean can be. And this guy was saying, "Oh, yeah. No, you haven't sailed solo yet. But look at sailing solo around Antarctica, this would be a great trip." And so my instant reaction was "Absolutely no way. It's madness and it would be suicide. And why would I want to challenge a trip like that's just not possible."

Lisa B:
And I kind of put it out of my mind and I went back to work, and I was skippering yachts at the time. So I was just out at sea sailing boats. And I couldn't shake this idea that there's this Antarctica trip. And I was like, I really wanted a project that's unique enough for me to get sponsorship that's challenging enough that I want to do it and interesting enough, and it kind of ticked all those boxes. But there was this huge unknown factor with how dangerous it could be down there.

Lisa B:
And it was months of kind of thinking and dreaming and visualizing, and wondering and doing a lot of research on the historical weather data. And I slowly as the time went by, I started to think more and more, maybe it's possible. Maybe it's something someone could do, and then I had to think, "Well maybe it's something I could do." And then working towards this idea of, "Yeah, okay. I'm going to do it."

Lisa B:
And it was about four months that time period of thinking and dreaming and I remember calling my mum. And I hadn't done the Trans-Tasman Yacht race yet. So I hadn't actually sailed solo before at this point and I called mum, and I said, "So mum, I've got this Trans-Tasman what about combining it with this other trip? What if I sail solo around Antarctica?" And she instantly was like, "No, not a chance. You're not doing it."

Lisa B:
And then, so I put it to bed and sort of left it on a shelf and went and did the solo Trans-Tasman Yacht race, and I finished that race and I said to mum, it's like "So, what about this Antarctica idea?" And she was like, "Oh, I suppose you've proven that you can sail solo now and you did really well with that last race. Okay, but you got to make sure it's safe." And so that started the process, and it was three and a half years till I actually was able to make it happen.

Warwick F:
It's funny how you know, mums and dads always want the kids to be safe. It's sort of a funny thing, but you must be hardwired so not quite in the same thing that you're talking about. But I have two sons and a daughter, a daughter in the middle and they're all in their '20s. And my daughter is the particularly adventurous one, and the boys get seasick like me. My daughter doesn't get seasick at all, so she inherited her mother's genes.

Lisa B:
I like her already.

Warwick F:
Yeah. Same height as you funnily enough, I know you write about that in the book, but anyway she's very mission oriented. And so she said to me, "Mom, dad, I'm thinking I'd like to go to the Congo with this relief agency." And it's really dangerous place. So initially it's ""You're kidding? Forget about it." But when you're over 21, you can say forget about it, but it doesn't have too much weight. And then after that it was, "Well I think I'd like to go South Sudan," but the same place. I mean, both are really, really dangerous places. She was with a very well run outfit that took care of her. But yeah, so a different orbit. But it's one thing for mom and dad to say "No, you're not doing that."

Warwick F:
But at a certain point it's your life and you say, "Well, I appreciate your perspective. But no, we're doing it." But anyway, your mum came around. But as we lead up to this epic voyage, so you got this boat, I guess from a fellow that the Funnel-Web, which you then renamed Climate Action Now and redid the whole thing and had all these watertight compartments. And I love the whole thing you did with, obviously, you have a perspective, I know I wrote it down somewhere here about climate change, which can be such a huge issue like how can we make a difference.

Warwick F:
And I think you said something like, "All it takes is one small step or action when you have millions of people taking these positive actions, you have real impact." So it can be easy to think how can we make a difference, all this pollution in the ocean and climate change, but and then you put post-it notes on your boat Climate Action. So to talk about that, because that's a very fun thing. So talk about that whole vision, getting the boat and the post-it notes and leading up to setting off.

Lisa B:
Yeah, awesome. So for me, I've always been very climate minded obviously with my childhood and being exposed to nature at a young age and growing up in the bush and I have a healthy respect for our environment. And the one thing I've witnessed or felt was that, when you mentioned the words climate change or climate action, anything to do with that message, so to speak, it becomes political and people also feel it's too big of a problem that their little piece doesn't make a difference. And so they don't do anything, because they feel like they're insignificant to creating a difference or making a difference.

Lisa B:
So for me the goal was to inspire a positive message to empower people, to forget about the negatives associated with the words and how can we positively influence people to create a nice change in their life. And so what I did was I went out to community members all around Australia, every talk or event that I did, every time I had the boat on display before the record, and I collected post-it note messages. And each post-it note was a message from someone in the public who was doing something for our environment. And I would just say "Just pop something on the message. And I think you're doing it or maybe you don't use water bottles, and you have a reusable water bottle, maybe you pick rubbish up, when you're walking down the street, maybe your kids have a plastic free lunch box."

Lisa B:
Whatever these little actions were, and then we collected them all up, and then turn them into this big vinyl wrap that we actually wrapped the whole hull of my boat in. And it really changed my goals with the record because it was less now about just a single girl sailing solo around Antarctica, and it was more about me carrying these thousands and thousands of messages. And the amount of people that come up to me and say that they've submitted another message through the website, or they've been down to the Marina and they've read all the messages on the hull of their boat, or they've had their six year old kid reading the messages, and they've decided to go plastic free at school. So there is this really positive effect that comes from it.

Lisa B:
And one thing I've also learned is that if you start with one thing, maybe you say no to straws, or maybe you say no to single use plastic bags, then suddenly you start becoming a little more aware of your actions. And we do have to take some responsibility for us as consumers with how much we're consuming and how we're consuming things. And so people start to think differently, maybe at the supermarket, I won't grab that packet of veggies wrapped in plastic, I'll grab the packet of veggies loose and I'll put them in my own bag.

Lisa B:
Small things like that can all make a really massive difference when one person is influenced, and they start talking about it, they start explaining to their friends. So they're out shopping and their kids ask why they're doing it that way and it creates this roll on effect, I feel like it's a bit contagious. And so that positivity and those positive actions can actually expand from that one person, that one opportunity and my goal is to show people that as an individual, you have the power to create change. It just starts with one thing.

Warwick F:
That's such an important message because it can be easy to think all the pollution in the ocean that you write about is just one part of it is just heartbreaking and what that does to animals and dolphins. All it takes is one person doing one thing and it does it's huge. So let's talk about Antarctica, so you have to buy the boat, refit it, you got all these partners who are helping you out. Obviously still raising money was it's like when earlier endeavors wasn't easy. And down to the wire it always seems to be that way. It's never easy, right?

Lisa B:
Yes.

Warwick F:
Yeah six months to go, got 110% of funding. That doesn't seem to be your life and anybody's life, but so you got to get the boat to Albany, West Australia. And for US listeners, Australia is about the same size as the continental US. So going from Sydney to Albany is like a long, long way and not an easy voyage. So you finally get to Albany and you get yourself together in January 2017, you launch out on this epic voyage. So talk a bit about that because you talk about the race track and having to be below 45 degree parallel and if you go above it, you know you lost before you began or it's over.

Warwick F:
So talk about that whole challenge and what it was like day-to-day. I'm not a sailing person but reading about changing sails and jibs and then tacking and the preventer line continually busting and you know? I mean my gosh, you had to be not just an avid mechanic professional. I mean, every day was just so hard, what do they say? I think the US Seals when they're asked they have some mantra like the only easy day is yesterday. It sounds a bit like your life. The only easy day was yesterday, which wasn't that easy, right? So just talk about the whole race track 45 degrees and the day-to-day life on this epic voyage.

Lisa B:
Perfect. So basically, because I was challenging Fyodor Konyukhov's record, he was the second person to upsell solo around Antarctica. So I was trying or aiming to be the third person to do the trip, solo, nonstop and unassisted. And because I was challenging his record the World Sailing Speed Record Council, which is the governing body of sailing records, they basically said to me, in order to be eligible, I would have to start and finish from the same place he did, which was Albany in Western Australia. And I would need to keep between the same parallels that he was sailing on.

Lisa B:
So when Fyodor Konyukhov did it, he did it as part of this race called the Antarctica Cup Ocean Race. So he was effectively on this race track, which was that parallel between 45 and 60 south. And if you went outside of those lines at any point, he voided his record. So because I was challenging his record, I had the same rules, even though I wasn't actually racing on the racetrack or had the committee behind me the race committee behind me. So I set off from Albany I had to go directly south for about 700 miles, until I entered into a formal racetrack, and then I could turn left under 45 degrees south and start heading over towards Tasmania, and I effectively went clockwise around the bottom of the planet.

Lisa B:
And I remember the day I left it was this, I was just so tired, because as you said, you never get the sponsorship or the money until right at the end when people know you're going and you're making it happen. And then you've got like a year's worth of work, you got to cram into a few months. And so it's just this intensity that you have that I don't think I've ever done a trip that doesn't have me up all night, the night before I leave. And I think I managed about two hours sleep the night before I left.

Lisa B:
And in fact that first week at sea, I feel like I got more sleep than I did in the weeks leading up to the departure of the voyage, which is unusual considering I'm sleeping in cat naps. And so I left and I remember casting off the lines. And there was this moment of complete panic, because I hadn't been visualizing leaving. And I've been visualizing all the things that could possibly go wrong out there.

Lisa B:
And the Southern Ocean is well known as the world's most dangerous ocean and that's because, effectively there's no landmass down there to break up the storms. So as a storm rolls around the bottom of the ocean, it goes the entire way around the planet. And it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and more aggressive as it goes. And it creates this unique swell where you can have waves the size of houses or more, just on a daily basis. That's your average swell. So it's this incredibly dangerous place to be in.

Lisa B:
And as part of my preparation process, I've been visualizing all these scenarios that could occur from knockdowns, to rollovers, to breaking masts, to hitting an iceberg, to hitting a sunken container, to flooding the boat, to losing the keel, to getting myself injured. And so I was thinking about all these possible scenarios. And when I finally left, it just crashed into me that, "Hang on, I'm now having to do this. It's no longer this thing I'm visualizing, it's not this thing I'm imagining. It's something I'm actively going out and doing right now."

Lisa B:
And I then had to remind myself that I had done the preparation because I was terrified, I started shaking, I started hyperventilating. I was like, choking on my air, and I just was freaking out completely. And I had to take a couple of calming breaths and remind myself that I'd prepared for this, that I'd worked really hard for this and that I could do it. And when I left, I then just settled in, but there was this sort of ominous feeling as a sailed, south to that line, because the further south I went, the grayer the skies would get and the bigger the swell was and the colder it was, and just how much more isolated and alone you feel.

Lisa B:
And there's this idea of how bad is bad going to be, because you never quite know. You can always think about it, but you never 100%. You just don't know how bad is bad. But I went off, I used the first couple of weeks of the voyage just to settling into life at sea, I was going to be on board for an estimated three months. So I was planning to be isolated for that length of time. So I really wanted to pace myself and I wanted to pace the boat as well.

Lisa B:
So I took the approach of having a really fast boat, and sailing it slowly. And by having a light fast boat, it meant I didn't have to change my sails for every weather pattern or every weather change that came through. And if I was a little under canvassed with the sails, that's okay, because I was still making pretty decent speeds, even with the less sail up. So that really allowed me to take the pressure off me by having that approach. And my greatest goal of the whole trip whilst I was challenging Fyodor's record, and whilst I was trying to become the first woman to do it, my biggest goal was just do the loop and come home alive, because then I would have succeeded.

Lisa B:
Everything else was just extras, actually just coming back to that point of talking about success or failure in those moments in time. The other thing I really did was because the challenge of getting to the start line was so big, I actually said to myself, "Well, as long as I can leave, as long as I get on the boat and I leave regardless of what happens next, I've succeeded." Because I've got the goal, I've got the boat, I've got the trip off the ground, and I left. And everything else was this kind of thing that I couldn't really control because weather and factors are around that. But as long as I left, I knew I had already succeeded. So that really took that pressure off.

Warwick F:
And that's really an important point is reframing the big goal of going round Antarctica into mini goals. Okay, first goal was to leave, second goal was to get on the race track or maybe there was a goal before that, but just mini goals, waypoints is I guess they call them in boating. But reading that book and anybody that's read it or I think there's a documentary, it's just hard to fathom how you could carry on each day because each day was unbelievably hard. So talk about an average day. You're sailing below the 45th parallel, what was an average day? Help the listeners understand what you did on an average day when there's storms and gales going all over the place?

Lisa B:
Yeah, so an average day is really, like I said, it strips you back to that eat sleep sail mentality because you don't have room for anything else. Your whole world is how do I survive in this storm? And so every decision you make is around that. So generally, my body clock got completely out of whack and the weather patterns affected when I could sleep or when I couldn't sleep. And more often than not, there was a weather shift in the morning around 6:00 a.m. so I'd be up on deck trimming sales and changing the angle of the sails. Then I'd get below, freezing cold. It's all about two degrees, three degrees, so it's icy cold and I try warm myself up-

Warwick F:
So that's two or three degrees Celsius which is-

Lisa B:
Celsius, yes.

Warwick F:
Not quite sure it's still probably. Well-

Gary S:
It's still cold.

Warwick F:
Yeah. It's probably in the 30's. I don't know what it is. Probably it is terrible. Anyway, go ahead.

Lisa B:
And then I would send a text message to my shore team to tell them what happened over the night and let them know that I'm safe and I'm alive still and that's all going okay. I would either eat something if I was hungry, which I'd normally wasn't at that point or I would get a couple more hours sleep and I would then bounce out of bed again or crawl out of bed should I say, at about 12 o'clock after having four or five little nano naps, I call them.

Lisa B:
So they're generally 20 minutes. The further I got from risks, I could increase those sleeps up to 40 minutes. And I think the longest single sleep I got in the whole record was about an hour and a half. So it's lots of little baby sleeps, so you're never really sleeping, so you're always operating on this intense level of fatigue and sleep deprivation. And I would have to alter my priorities when my sleep deprivation would get so bad that I couldn't function very well or my emotions were out of whack and change it so that I wasn't optimizing the sails anymore, I was just trying to get some sleep, but I still couldn't sleep more than that 20 to 40 minute block at a time, before the boat would need some attention.

Lisa B:
I would then get up, I would have to do some daily maintenance. So I'd walk around and I would, check the bilges for water, I would go on deck and do a deck walk and I would just check that things are looking okay, I'll get a weather forecast, communicate with my shore team, send a blog home, those sorts of things. And by about eight or nine at night, I'd be trying to have some dinner, which was always a really basic, we call it freeze dried food. It's like what the astronauts ate, which is like a patch of dried goods and you add a cup of boiling water to it. And it's all kind of the same texture, all kind of tastes the same. But you get on with it and then so have my dinner.

Lisa B:
And then I would always be aiming to get to bed before midnight. It almost never happened, and so I'd be getting ready for bed at like 10, 11 o'clock at night. And when I say bed, I mean, I would be in bed for four or five hours. But I'm still doing all those little naps in that period of time. And then inevitably around midnight, there would be a sail change required. And I would either have to put a reef in because the winds have increased, shake a reef out because the winds have decreased, or they've changed direction on me and I'd have to be on deck doing something with the sails.

Lisa B:
So that would then cause me to get completely soaked head to toe by icy cold water which wakes you up, which makes it impossible to try and get 20 minute naps. And then I would have to come back down below after an hour or two of fighting with the sails on deck and getting smashed by waves and just generally having a really fun time of it. And then I would try and get a couple more nano naps. So it was just this constant... Your priorities are secondary to the boat's priorities in that environment and the boat's requirements generally outpaced what your requirements are.

Lisa B:
So you forego things like sleep or food on occasion, because the boat needs attention or the boat needs work. And I generally operated, I would try and do something that I called sleep banking. And that is where I never know when the next emergency is going to occur. I never know when I might have to be up for two days at a time or when the next storm is around the corner, something could go wrong. And it causes me to be awake for a long period of time.

Lisa B:
And because you're already operating at these extreme fatigue measures, I would bank my sleep. So that meant anytime I wasn't trimming sails or eating, I was trying to rest in my bunk. And even if I couldn't sleep, I would at least be laying down in bed, whether I was reading a book in bed or not, just so that my body is getting some rest. Because the rest of the time, it feels like you've run a marathon, and you've got another five marathons to go and you just got to suck it up and find the energy from somewhere.

Warwick F:
And what's amazing is every day was like what you just described as I read the book. Sail changes, 20 minute nano naps, and then you've got this alarm thing saying change sail, you're off course, do something. It keeps blaring away. Then the team approaching "Yep, it's not looking good," because it seems like it's the Southern Ocean. So obviously, a key moment is you're somewhere probably seven, 800 miles south of Cape Town somewhere. And you're in another big storm and somehow the mast breaks, you talk about electrolysis and lines and you figure some of that out later. But that was when your whole journey changed. Talk about what happened when the mask broke and that was a huge, crucible, if you will in this journey.

Gary S:
And can we stop one second for listeners who may not have a great grasp of of sailing. When a mast breaks, let's explain what that means. To me, that means you don't have a sail anymore. Is that right?

Lisa B:
Yeah, so you don't have any means of propulsion anymore. So the mast is the pointing out bit that all your sails fly off. So when it snaps, all your sails are gone as well. And what also occurs is that your mast can become a weapon. And it's this thing that's still attached to the boat through ropes and riggings. But it's now getting pushed and shoved by all the swell and the waves that are out there. And more often than not, it can get driven by a wave through the hull of your boat effectively sinking you.

Lisa B:
So a mast breaking is an incredibly dangerous thing to have occur. It's snapping, ripping ropes, it's just tons of force of pressure getting applied to everything. And, in fact since I've been back from this trip, I've had numerous people come up to me and say, "I survived a de-masting with a crew of 15 and I was terrified. I don't know how you did it, on your own in the middle of those oceans." So it's certainly one of the bigger risks should I say that sailors face out to say yes, it definitely not a good thing to have happen.

Gary S:
So as Warwick said, enormous crucible, what was it like for you when that happened to you? That, friends, is what those of us in the communications business call a cliffhanger. How indeed did Lisa Blair move on after she lost her mast, after she lost her power of propulsion, while circumnavigating Antarctica? You'll find out all about that in some extraordinarily interesting detail in next week's episode of Beyond the Crucible.

Gary S:
Until that time, until we're together again, please remember as Lisa's story up to this point has proven and will definitely prove in the second half next week, that crucibles are painful, emotionally painful, physically painful, circumstantially painful, they upset the applecart of our lives. They can knock us off course, they can change the trajectory of where we're going, but they're not the end of our stories.

Gary S:
In fact, as we examine, on Beyond The Crucible in offering hope and healing to folks who have been through crucibles just like you, just like Lisa Blair, that crucible experiences if we learn the lessons from them, aren't the end of our stories. They in fact can be the beginning of new and exciting and rewarding stories, because they lead after we've learned those lessons and applied them, those new stories lead to a life of significance.

In more than 20 years of playing football, as an amateur and in the NFL, Jeff Kemp was only once earmarked as his team’s starting quarterback before the season began. His career never did match that of his legendary dad, AFL standout Jack Kemp — whose shadow loomed even larger thanks to a distinguished career in politics and public service after he retired from the game. But while Jeff got knocked down a few times, he always got back up. He learned his life had a greater purpose than just achieving, and he’s crafted a post-gridiron career helping others huddle up to build stronger marriages, more faith-filled lives, and deeper relationships at home and at the office.

For more information about Jeff Kemp and his book, Facing the Blitz: Three Strategies for Turning Trials into Triumphs, visit www.jeffkempteam.com

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Jeff K:
The toughest things I've gone through in pro football and the fact that I didn't get to be Joe Montana, Super Bowl champion, or Jack Kemp Jr., basically, those things crushed me to seek a better answer for who I am and a better purpose for the outcomes and circumstances in my life than just achieving.

Gary S:
A better purpose than just achieving. That's the goal we exhort listeners to every week on this show, as we offer insight and inspiration for you to lead a life of significance. It's not an easy journey, and it can be particularly difficult when you grow up feeling like you've got really, really big shoes to fill.

Gary S:
Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. Today's guest is someone who knows the reality of what I just described really well. Jeff Kemp is the son of American Football League champion and MVP, Jack Kemp, the American Football League is the old AFL. And Jack Kemp didn't just leave a legacy on the football field, he left one in public service and in politics too, as a cabinet secretary, presidential candidate, and vice presidential nominee. His son, Jeff's, achievements on the gridiron were no match for his dad's. In his more than a decade in the NFL, Jeff Kemp was rarely a starter, and more than once released, traded, passed over. But as he explains in this conversation with Warwick, he weathered the blitzes on and off the field to find his true purpose, helping others huddle up to build stronger marriages, more faith filled lives, and deeper relationships at home and at the office.

Warwick F:
Well, Jeff, thank you so much for being here. I loved reading your book, Facing the Blitz. Definitely found some common themes, a different language, in terms of as we talk about bouncing back from crucibles, and as you talk about just overcoming blitzes, thinking differently. So, I love that whole theme. It's funny, typically, when we have a guest on, we often ask them, "Tell us about your family." Well, you've got one impressive family. Obviously, you and Stacy and your three boys, but just you have a very famous dad, Jack Kemp, who, even in Australia, I mean, I'd heard of him there and I've lived in the US since the early '90s.

Warwick F:
And as I was refreshing my memory about your dad, I could relate because I come from a prominent family in Australia, five generations of very prominent people, of which I'm not in their league at all of any of the five that came before me, which we can talk about in a bit if it's helpful, but I'd just love to hear your perspective because a lot of people will know about Jack Kemp, but just to refresh people's memory kind of looking it up here. Obviously, I knew a lot of this, but your dad, as you know, played 13 seasons in pro football, AFC quarterback of the winning team in '64, '65, I guess before the merger happened, and Super Bowl, represented Buffalo for nine terms in Congress, Housing Secretary under President George H.W. Bush, Bob Dole's running mate for vice president in '96. Ran for republican nomination in '88. That's some huge shoes to fill.

Warwick F:
So, talk about growing up as the son of Jack Kemp, when you're trying to find your own way in life and identity. Everybody loved Jack Kemp, everybody admired him, irrespective of what side of the aisle they're on, so talk a bit about how it was like growing up in that kind of family.

Jeff K:
I'm actually looking through my phone to find a picture, since there may be some folks who don't remember Jack, but I'll get a picture. I just found some. Here's one of dad and me after a Rams game.

Gary S:
Oh wow.

Jeff K:
Came to all my games in California. I never would have made it in pro football without his encouragement. I was a starter one time out of 20 years at the beginning of the season, in my whole life. Okay, one time out of 20 seasons. I was a backup most of the time, but I still made it 11 years in the NFL because I had this voice in my head saying, "You are a Kemp, be a leader, you are a Kemp, be a leader. Your day is going to come. I believe in you. It's going to happen. God has a plan. You're in the right place. Hey, you played great today." "Dad, I didn't even get in the game." "Oh, I know. I saw you warming up. You're really doing well." That's the kind of dad I had.

Jeff K:
Let me show you another picture. Here's me on the airplane, the Buffalo Bills team flight with my dad, sitting in his lap.

Warwick F:
How old are you there? Like about four or something? You look pretty young?

Jeff K:
Yeah, four or five. We didn't get to go on the flights normally. I might have just jumped on the plane, gotten to sit down and take off, I don't know. But we really were blessed in a huge way. Here's a picture of me as the little toe head, and my dad. Do you know that other guy in the picture with him?

Warwick F:
Yeah. Ronald Reagan. Wow, my gosh. Your dad looks young there. Was that before Reagan was president?

Jeff K:
Oh, yeah. He was governor. My dad worked for Reagan in California in....

Warwick F:
Right, when he was governor of California. Okay.

Jeff K:
1967 off season, we moved out there for three months. Let me give you the family thing, because you wisely and graciously opened this interview by asking me the question about who am I and who am I related to? And I think you and I both know quite well from experience, from families of achievement, we are not our pedigree, we are not our performance, we are not our bank account, we are not our title, we aren't our job, we aren't all the stuff we accomplish. We are amazing, beloved creatures of God who he created, and we have the opportunity for a relationship, or we can skip out on that, which many people in the world do, and secondly, we're the son or daughter of a man and woman. We're the sister or brother of people. Relationships are what shape us. Today I'm the husband of Stacy, I'm the father of four sons, not three, and I have four daughters-in-law and five grandkids.

Jeff K:
So, my identity is related to family, both spiritual family, which is way better than performing, because I promise you, football players get cut and then they would lose their identity if they were football players. And I don't lose my identity as Stacy's husband, I don't lose my identity as a son that God loves, or ever will I lose my identity as Jack and Joanne's son.

Jeff K:
The interesting thing about that is, as good as my dad was at encouraging, and loving unconditionally, and not making it about me being first string or anything like that, I put my own pressure on myself that I was going to be a great leader like my dad told me I would be, and I figured a great leader must be an all pro quarterback in the NFL, and win championships, and then become a great speaker, and then become a statesman, and run for president by the time you're 50 years old. That's kind of hard to live up to all that. And he didn't put all that on me, Warwick, Gary, he didn't put pressure on me for that, but we humans are insecure, and we're driven to feel good about ourselves, and we want to be popular. And so I put my own pressure on myself that I got to really rise and achieve a lot.

Jeff K:
And I didn't get to go to University of Southern California or Stanford or Notre Dame. Best college I could go to for football was Dartmouth. Now, it happened to be great for academics, so it opened two pathways. But my mom was the really encouraging, personal, relational, faith expressing force in the family.

Jeff K:
My dad was the hyper encouraging, best encourager I've ever known in the world, visionary, a championing, vision casting, optimistic, big picture faith, but he didn't really have the transparency, and vulnerability, and honesty, and sharing his weaknesses and stuff like that, so I didn't really pick that up from my dad as much as from my mom, and mostly, I picked up that from my relationship with God during the years I played pro football, and my wife, who she's got a fabulous, cool, committed relationship to God and she helps me be a better person, although she's kind of like sandpaper. She keeps rubbing off the spots of me that are a little bit obnoxious.

Jeff K:
So, I have two sisters, and a little brother, younger than me. I was the oldest. I married Stacy. I met her my first summer in California as a free agent with the Rams, and then we got married right after our second season. She's the only girl I dated out there. We knew God brought us together. We have incredibly different personalities in every single way except dominant leadership. She's a 99 dominant leader and I'm a 97, which bugs me because I'm competitive, and she beat me. So, we got two totally different people, this introvert, organized, disciplined, black and white, right and wrong, sequential person, and then there's me, the opposite of all that. And I'm the feeler and she's the thinker. It's kind like I'm the girl in the equation and she's the guy, but we're dominant leaders, so our marriage has had a lot of friction, but great commitment.

Jeff K:
And that has reshaped us both. It's made us turn to God because we needed some help to keep us glued together that we couldn't have done on our own. And we've turned to mentors, coaching, conferences, classes, books, and then we ended up helping other couples because we needed so much help. So, that's the journey. A great family, a dad with a big pedigree, and I finally figured out that I don't need to be a famous success, I just need to be faithful.

Warwick F:
Right. You don't need to be Jack Kemp.

Jeff K:
I don't need be Jack Kemp, I have to be Jeff.

Warwick F:
Being Jeff Kemp is fine. It's interesting, it sounds like your dad had a great heart, and wasn't trying to push you into anything, but as you say, when he's saying, "Being a Kemp means being a leader. I know you can do it. You did great. You can be all that you want to be."

Jeff K:
Exactly.

Warwick F:
He might not have meant that, but you could interpret that as being, "Okay, so if I'm not a starting quarterback, and win a Super Bowl, at least be a member of Congress, maybe a Senator, I'm not being a Kemp. I'm not being a leader." So, it probably wasn't what he intended-

Jeff K:
I think you read it right. I filled in all the blanks and I exaggerated it and created a higher expectation for myself, even than he set out. But it was natural that I did so because he was so hyper encouraging and leadership to him was, "Let's work with Reagan to cut the tax rate and energize the whole world economy. Let's win two championships in a row with the Buffalo Bills." That was the benchmark.

Warwick F:
Right. It's funny. Do you ever think of saying, "Dad, I love your encouraging. Can you dial it down a little bit?"

Jeff K:
No. I didn't, because back then, I loved it, and I didn't know the performance mentality that I would assign to it that would make the weakest parts of me show up. The weakest parts of me is my vanity, my pride, my ego, my comparison to others, my impatience. But at the same time, that journey of seeing all that stuff and ending up a backup quarterback usually, getting traded, getting cut, getting booed in my big opportunity with the Seahawks in 1988 when I thought my career was going to flourish and take off, and it happened exactly the opposite, all of those things, the Crucible, okay? I don't think you understand, Warwick, but the real word is blitz. You're supposed to call those things blitzes. I don't know where you came up with this melting the gold and silver Crucible

Warwick F:
Yeah, blitzes. Yeah...

Jeff K:
Listen, blitzes, they are not just danger, they are... What are they?

Warwick F:
They're blitzes.

Jeff K:
They're not danger. They're also what? Opportunity.

Warwick F:
Painful. Opportunity. Right, right, right. Sorry, I hear what you're saying.

Jeff K:
That's what a crisis is.

Warwick F:
Right. And I love that. Just parenthetically, one of the things you have in your book is the two Chinese characters, saying the Chinese character, that crisis combines danger and opportunity.

Jeff K:
Yeah, show us the picture. Gary, can you show us the picture.

Warwick F:
That's fascinating that a crisis can be birth. I love that.

Jeff K:
Do you have the picture right there? Can you show it?

Warwick F:
Yeah, I'll try.

Jeff K:
If you can.

Warwick F:
See if I can-

Jeff K:
There it is. It's simple.

Warwick F:
Do people see that? Okay. So, it's two Chinese symbols.

Jeff K:
Got it. That is the way, in Chinese, they represent the word and concept crisis. And the Crucible is a crisis, the blitz is a crisis. It's not just dangerous, it's also opportunity.

Jeff K:
What I was saying was the toughest things I've gone through in pro football, and the fact that I didn't get to be Joe Montana, Super Bowl champion, or Jack Kemp Jr. basically, those things crushed me to seek a better answer for who I am and a better purpose for the outcomes and circumstances of my life than just achieving.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I want to focus here in a second on sort of one key crucible you talk about, I think it was the '88, 49ers, Seahawks game, but some listeners will know, but I think it's helpful, I couldn't have grown up in a more different background. I'm not particularly athletic, I'm not terrible, but in Australia, at least in Sydney, we play rugby, and most of the rest of the country, they play Aussie Rules, which they call footy there, which you've kind of got to be basically the size of a basketball player but maybe with the strength of a football player.

Jeff K:
Yeah, it's a great sport.

Warwick F:
It's strange, and you got to be very fast. But yeah, I mean, as listeners will know, I grew up in a large family media business. I was the fifth generation that was started by a very strong person of faith, as strong a businessman for Christ is I think I've ever heard of. He founded a great business. Wonderful husband, great dad, his employees loved him, elder at church. Every aspect of his life was done well. So, the benchmark there is really high. And then succeeding generations, faith wasn't quite as important, but by way of comparison, my dad was knighted. He had the same name as I do. He was Sir Warwick Fairfax, that were three knighthoods in a row, and this kind of knighthood you have to earn it.

Warwick F:
So, it's not quite like being three Super Bowl champion in a row, but it's a little bit like somebody that's achieved greatness and prominence three in a row. Obviously, I wasn't knighted, they don't do that anymore. It's a bit too English royal family these days, and I wouldn't have earned it, but they were all greatly admired and respected by the community. My dad oversaw a company going from one newspaper, or a few newspapers, to TV, radio, magazines, to a huge company, and what did I do? I was the Fairfax that kind of destroyed 150 years of family history. So, my Wikipedia entry, and I do have one, it's the young hot headed kid that could have had it all and blew it. It is kind of like, through the game, losing interception in the big game, that's what you're forever remembered for.

Warwick F:
So, yeah, I get the whole, for me and my identity, can't just being a Fairfax, because I can't compete with the legacy of five generations of great, great men. So, I kind of get it on one level, even though we're very different. But talk a bit about one of the key points in your career was that 49ers, Seahawks game when you were playing for the Seahawks. I love that incident in the book. I mean, you throw into your buddy, Steve Largent, and somehow he drops the pass.

Jeff K:
Yeah, I'll set it up this way. I had five years at the Rams as a free agent, wasn't even supposed to make it. Started for them in '84, took us to the playoffs. They wanted someone more flashy and pedigreed, maybe taller, and so they got someone new. And then I got traded to the 9ers, and that looked like a dead end. You stuck behind Joe Montana your whole career, but he got hurt right away, and I got coached by Bill Walsh and Mike Holmgren, got to throw to Jerry Rice, and had the best season of my life in '86, and we went to the playoffs. But I was hurt, Montana got better. They brought in Steve Young, and somehow I didn't beat out those two Hall of Famers. Anyway, so they traded me. They said, "Thanks, Jeff. You helped us get to the playoffs, but we don't need you." Traded me to Seattle. So, I was on the rise. I was getting good in my career.

Jeff K:
And I spent a year on the bench backing up David Krieg, and then I had the chance to start, after an injury of his, in '88, and we were playing the 9ers in Seattle. And I had prepared so well, I was so hyper disciplined on that week, to know my game plan, to throw extra passes after practice, and I was very confident. I was spiritually really plugged in to make sure that I gave God everything so he might bless me. He doesn't work like that. He's not a... But I was covering all my bases.

Jeff K:
And I walked out in the pregame meal on Sunday morning, four hours before the game, and a coach put his arm around me an offensive coach... and this is kind of rare, this level of encouragement, and he said, "Jeff, I just want to let you know," looking me in the eyes, "I've been waiting for the day that you would be the Seahawks quarterback. This is going to be awesome." That was as big an encouragement as my dad had given me, right? And I felt so validated, so valued, so encouraged, so pumped, I was ready to have the world's best game, lead us to victory, take us to the playoffs, win a Super Bowl, and really launch my career. It wasn't pure ambition, but it was adrenaline to be the best you can be, and this was the moment, it was coming.

Jeff K:
Anyway, the game started, and the first pass of the game was to Steve Largent. I hit him perfectly between two defenders on a slant route, and he dropped it. Steve Largent, Hall of Fame, unbelievable. The guy's perfect. He drops the ball on my first pass to him of our big game, and I'm-

Warwick F:
And he's a good friend of yours.

Jeff K:
He's a really good friend of mine. Yeah, we're super close. And after that, Steve didn't make any mistakes, but the game did not go well for the Seahawks. We were getting beat on defense and on offense. I was playing very, very poorly. Nothing was really open. Nothing was working. And gosh, I had only four completions in the first half, and three of them were to the 49ers, not my team.

Warwick F:
Oh, no.

Jeff K:
Two corner routes were intercepted and a hail Mary at the end of the half that was intercepted, and I walked off the field expecting to get benched, because this is pro football and not Pop Warner, and they pay you to play well, and I wasn't, but I had a clear idea of one of the reasons for the interceptions, was they were stymying our tight end, he wasn't getting down the middle. They were killing him at the line of scrimmage, blocking him. And so I was going to talk to that encouraging coach who put his arm around me, and I was going to say, "Coach, why don't we move the tight end in emotion, got them off the line freely, he could split the two safeties, and we'd keep him honest on those corner routes that I've been messing up on."

Jeff K:
Well, I walked up to him two feet away, and Gary, I looked at him and I said, "Coach," and he turned his back 180 degrees, and he walked over and got another quarterback, put his hand on his shoulder and was going to put him in the game. This made sense. I understood benching Jeff, and I kind of expected it. I didn't want it. I knew I could play way, way, way better than that, and that's not the real me.

Jeff K:
I have the Jack Kemp, never give in, never give in, never give in Churchill attitude, but I didn't get to say a word to that coach for the rest of the game. Other than to call plays to a new quarterback, Kelly, and encourage him, that coach didn't say a word to me during the game, after the game, Monday in films, he critiqued me as he should, but he didn't say a word personally to me.

Jeff K:
For a month, we were out of relationship. I'd say, "Hi," and he'd kind of veer around me and not even look at me anymore. Basically, he's not a jerk, and I'm not telling this story because he's a jerk. Basically, we live in a conditional performance-based world, and the epitome of it is the NFL. The acronym NFL might stand for, not for long. If you don't perform, you won't be here for very long. Okay? What have you done for me lately?

Jeff K:
So, this coach thought he could motivate me with a real personal, almost loving encouragement, and I feel like he probably meant a lot of it, but the minute I didn't perform and let him down, he was on to the next hope, and he was feeling that same conditionality, that same performance basis from his head coach who'd get rid of him just as quick if he did as badly as I, and he feels it from the owner, and he feels it from Madison Avenue and Wall Street. And this conditional performance-based value system that I got caught up in and benched from first-string to third-string in one half, my big shot with the Seahawks was gone. I hardly got in the field for a number of years until 1991, my last season, when I got to play again. All this was gone in a matter of seconds because of-

Warwick F:
Did this feel like a turning point, that game?

Jeff K:
It was a turning point in my career in Seattle for the negative. There'd been a lot of expectations and hope and I had a lot of confidence, and all sudden now I'm just a good, solid, dependable backup who's played in the league, and we can count on him. We'll try to replace him with some other guys, but we haven't found anyone better, but he can still be a backup, but he's not our starter. That's how my career went in Seattle. And I handled that, Warwick, by persevering, still preparing, hoping I get to play, but I also put a lot of effort into being the best teammate I could.

Jeff K:
And I helped as many guys on the team as I could be good athletes, and I helped them be better husbands, and better men, and better dads. Steve Largent and I, and Eugene Robinson led the team chapel and the Bible study. My wife and I invited couples over to our house, dating couples and married couples, to learn about marriage and relationships, because we were learning about it. And then I'd use the off seasons to invest in the community to make the world better, the way you talk about using Crucibles to get other centered purpose to make the world better. I started doing that kind of thing, and that's what set me up for post football, having a mission to strengthen fatherhood, marriage and families. So yeah, it was a turning point.

Warwick F:
Yeah. How did you deal with the whole identity issue? Because obviously, as you said, your dad was sort of, amongst other things, Hall of Fame quarterback, that people think of you as a good solid backup. You had this shining moment, well, potential, and it didn't work out too well. How did you deal with the whole identity of my life isn't going the way I had hoped it would? It seemed like you've handled it as well as you could in the sense of helping others, mentoring. I mean, you weren't just sulking and sitting at home. I mean, to the outside world it was like, Jeff Kemp's handling this amazingly. So, what was going on inside?

Jeff K:
It's funny. The Seattle newspaper did an interview with me several weeks after I'd been benched from first-string to third, and they were asking how am I doing? How am I handling it? And they checked with some teammates and saw that I wasn't hanging my head, and I wasn't going out to the bar and drinking myself silly, I wasn't down talking the other quarterback. I was a help. And so we had this long interview, and I answered all this reporter's questions, and she wrote a really long and mostly nice article, and it was very complimentary of me, but it finished with this line... And I share, basically, a lot about my identity isn't in football, it's in my relationship with God, being a husband and a dad, and that anchors me. So anyway, she ends up writing, "Jeff Kemp will survive. He's a survivor because of his great faith, faith in himself and faith in his abilities."

Jeff K:
She completely missed the point. I do not have faith in myself. My character is flawed. I wanted to be the starter. I was pissed. I wasn't happy. I had a couple of nights where I cried on my apartment carpet floor, not bawling but kind of sniffling male cry with my wife as I explained to her how much it hurt to be benched and forgotten and rejected. And I even told her, "One thing that bothers me most is not only that I'm benched but that it bothers me so much." I thought I was a stronger person of faith than this.

Gary S:
Right. I want to jump in here and say to the listener, you're probably not an NFL quarterback, you probably weren't an NFL quarterback, you probably weren't the fifth generation heir to a multi-billion dollar media dynasty, but what Jeff just described, the emotions of a crucible, the emotions of a blitz, of getting sacked, of getting knocked off balance, those emotions are legit and the same in what you're going through right now. And Warwick, I know you've talked before... I mean, having editorial cartoons done about you after the takeover failed, that was an emotionally trying time, and that's a real thing for anybody who goes through any crucible of any stripe.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. It's funny.

Jeff K:
Thanks, Gary, for saying that.

Warwick F:
I mean, obviously, Jeff, you wouldn't be familiar with it, but you never want to have editorial cartoons done on you. I mean, there was one that says, "How do you start a small business? Give Warwick Fairfax a big one?" I mean, another one had me looking like sort of Genghis Khan, so this Mongol kind of raiders, "And here's young Warwick destroying what took 150 years to build," and it was pretty brutal.

Warwick F:
So yeah, for me, yeah, I had become a believer before this whole takeover thing, but feeling like I've let down my dad, and my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax, who founded it, and caused turmoil for a few thousand employees. Some family members who are unhappy with me, it was like I was pretty down for most of the '90s, like, "How could I have been so stupid?" I have an Oxford degree and also have a Harvard MBA. In theory, I shouldn't be that dumb in business.

Jeff K:
That's your problem. You went to Harvard instead of Dartmouth.

Warwick F:
There you go.

Jeff K:
It all traces back to that huge mistake.

Warwick F:
If I'd gone to Dartmouth Tuck School of Business, life would have been better, absolutely.

Jeff K:
Hey, let me say this right now. Gary, you teed it up, Warwick, you felt it, and every person out there has been blitzed. They've been cut, they've been rejected. They went to junior high, they know what it's like to be on the losing end of that conditional performance-based value system, making fun of your pimples, or your size, or your voice, or whatever. Everyone goes through crucibles.

Jeff K:
I want to remind people, you want to remind people, Gary wants to remind people, you are not alone, others have been in it before, and the worst thing you can do is hide your emotions from other people. Hide your pain, drown it and self medicate it or pretend it didn't happen, but the worst thing you can do is say, "I'm a victim. It's all about other people." Because you'll never grow if you don't look at what your part in it was, which wasn't, "I'm the worst guy in the world. I deserved to be benched, or I deserved to have cartoons against me." No, but you know what, there's lessons that I learned, and you have to accept your own personal responsibility. Maybe it was a divorce you went through, you can think it was 90% her. Your math is probably off. Okay? Maybe you were cut, or sacked, or benched, or fired by some company and you think that was the worst manager or CEO ever. Maybe they weren't that perfect, but there might be something you can learn.

Warwick F:
Absolutely.

Jeff K:
All I'm saying is, embrace the crucible, embrace the blitz, get honest with God and honest with other people about it, and learn everything you can about yourself and what life is truly about, because your life is not about your win-loss record, your statistics, your bank account, the applause of the world, how many Twitter followers you have. That is pretty much a bunch of BS and it'll take you down a wrong road, you'll lose your identity. Living for image and living to gain and earn your identity is a very losing equation. I'd say explore everything you can learn about the blitz you've gone through, the crucible you're in, share openly with a few trusted mentors and people, and then find out if there's a possible solution, by a relationship with God, who loves you unconditionally, and actually uses blitz and crucibles to turn bad things to good.

Jeff K:
In fact, all of history, Warwick, I think hinges on one date, the date that God came to earth in the person of a man, and he told everyone, "I am going to die on a cross, and I'll be buried and gone for three days, but then I'm going to raise from the dead." And 500 people saw him because he actually did it. There's no religious leader or person in history who's done this. And then he went back to his father in heaven, and said, "I will return again." Well, basically, no one had a career that looked as good as Jesus's and turned out as bad as his. His number one guy, the treasurer betrayed him. Okay? His new number one guy, Peter, he denied him three times. Every one of the guys scattered. They couldn't even stay awake with him and pray with him in that garden the night before he's going to get killed. They all left. They all left. The world mocked him.

Jeff K:
The Jewish leaders, he practiced Judaism better than them, but they said he was a fraud. He was the actual answer that they were supposed to believe in. And I love Jewish people, I love Israel, I love the Jewish faith. My Christian faith is stemming from Judaism. It's the same God. I just believe the Messiah has come. And that is kind of God's plan, was to take a blitz in Jesus, make it look terrible, and then turn it around for good. That's God's formula. Look at all the Bible stories. That guy Joseph, man. There was a dude named Lazarus who Jesus was supposed to heal, but he let him die and stay in the tomb four days so that he could actually prove that he gives life instead of just heal sicknesses. So, blitz is God's way. I'd say, turn to God, be honest, and let your blitz become God's blessing.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I want to shift to LIFT here in a moment, which we'll unpack, well, you'll unpack. But I just want listeners to hear what Jeff is saying. He said a number of profound things, is take responsibility for what happened in your blitz or your crucible. And, yeah, I spent a lot of years, in fact, a lot of the book that will come out next year on Crucible Leadership talks about that, thinking I was on this crusade, restore the company to the ideals of the founder, have it be well-run, I was so convinced in the mission, even though it was more an inherited one, that I wasn't really listening to advice. It was very biblical, actually. I had good advisors and bad advisors. I listened to the bad ones and ignored the good ones.

Warwick F:
In fact, there's a Bible story, Rehoboam, who was the son of Solomon, and he could have listened to his dad's advisors, Solomon was meant to be the wisest person that ever lived, he ignored his dad's advisors and he went with his buddies, these young guys. He said, "Yeah, persecute people, do whatever it takes," and it led to the split of Israel and bad things happened from there, so absolutely.

Jeff K:
You know what, that principle is, even though you are well educated and you had noble goals, at the root, wouldn't you say the problem probably was that the hinge point between pride and humility?

Warwick F:
Well, yeah, and it was also, as I talked about, I was living not even my dad's vision, the founder's vision. In your world, it'd be like trying to be Jack Kemp. Well, I was trying to be John Fairfax, the founder. But taking responsibility, and then as you put it, I mean, similar for me, even though I was a believer, I had to learn that God loved me unconditionally. He didn't need Fairfax Media and all of that. If he'd wanted it to work out, he would have, despite my mistakes, so that sense of God's unconditional love was the key point of me coming back.

Warwick F:
But I want to transition here a bit because I want to make sure I get to some of these key principles in your book. I love this phrase, LIFT, that life is for transformation, that I think you mentioned that your dad modeled and preached, then you've got these three, I guess, pillars in your book, of take a long term view, be willing to change, reach out to others. So, talk about just those three concepts and how it's sort of anchored in this whole concept of LIFT, of life is for transformation.

Jeff K:
Yeah. So, Bill Bennett, who worked with dad in the cabinet for President Bush, the first President Bush, described dad, after he passed away, as LIFT. Wherever he went, whatever the issue, whatever the audience, no matter the situation, Jack Kemp brought LIFT, a sunny, optimistic disposition that we can make the world better, we can turn bad to good. That's the way it was with me.

Jeff K:
But I agree with that sentiment, and I love the word LIFT, kind of like the aerodynamics of a wing that takes a plane up in the air when it's moving, but not when it's not moving. Secondly, there's an acronym, life is for transformation. Transformation from less good to better, from proud to humble, from selfish to unselfish, from me to us, from racist to we're all equal, from a lack of opportunity to more opportunity, from immaturity to maturity, okay? Obviously, it's for growth. Everyone's trying to grow and improve. That's the purpose of life. God made himself creative and he made us creative, but that means we should transform things to be better.

Jeff K:
Well, blitzes and crucibles are great examples of things that need to transform from not so good... COVID, I didn't want it to go this way. I didn't want to lose all my speeches and not have any men's conferences for this whole last seven months. I didn't want that. But guess what, there are other opportunities that I found in the midst of it that had been improvements in my life, in my marriage, in my relationship with God, in my content creating, in my coaching of leaders. I've started coaching CEOs, and they might reach many people versus the audience I wanted to.

Jeff K:
So, here's three strategies for facing your crucibles, and facing your blitzes, your troubles, and trials, and problems, and unexpected stuff you didn't want to happen. The first, take a long term view, not a short term view. Now, you and I have been changed and have found a lifelong centering relationship with God through the person of Jesus, and so our long term is eternity, right? This life is pretty cool, there's a lot of good stuff, but we know it's jacked up and imperfect. There's a paradise coming forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. That sounds pretty cool. That's God's kingdom. If you take that long term view, you're really going to make good decisions.

Jeff K:
If you just take a 10 or 20 year future vision, you might not yell at your wife quite so much, go have an affair, and say, "Screw this marriage," and blow up your family, because you're thinking, "I think grandma and grandpa together would be better for our grandkids than splitting up." Long term view. "Begin with the end in mind," Stephen Covey.

Jeff K:
Number two, you got to humble yourself instead of being proud, and you have to be willing to change. That's strategy two. You got to be willing to change. Football players always change the play in the blitz. We don't run the same play because it's not going to work. We site adjust, we adapt, we might call an audible, but we got to change. And many times you have to sacrifice. That's how we beat blitzes. Quarterback get hit in the jaw, but they deliver the ball to a receiver who changes his route, while all the linemen and running backs are diving in front of 300 pound defenders to sacrifice so the team can win, and the quarterback is on his back when he finds out that the touchdown pass just occurred, turning the blitz into the greatest play in the game and we win.

Jeff K:
You got to be willing to change, call different play, become more humble. If you talk all the time, shut up and listen. If you never talk, speak up. If you spend all your money and there's nothing left for the kids' college, start saving. Change your character. Maybe your faith is what needs to change. Maybe you say you believe in God, you go to church occasionally, you're religious. Why don't you try something different? Just try a relationship with God instead of religion. Well, why don't you try trusting him instead of just saying I believe? That might change some things. Why don't you try reading the Bible and seeing if the greatest book in history of the world can actually change you like it has me? So, that's number two, be willing to change.

Jeff K:
Number three. Stop playing the victim and focusing on yourself, and very simply, focus on others, bless others, turn outward. That's your vision. I've heard it in your crucible leadership. Here's my analogy for it my friend. It's to be an investor, especially in relationships. In the summertime, they teach the quarterbacks like Drew Brees, "Your responsibility is to throw the football to a one foot diameter of accuracy to the wide receiver, not anywhere close." I was in practice one day, Joe Montana threw a pass to Jerry Rice, it hit him right here in the shoulder, Jerry turned the ball to the front, kept running scored a touchdown, and the quarterback coach, Mike Holmgren said, "Good throw, Joe."

Jeff K:
And our Hall of Fame coach, Bill Walsh, turned to Mike and said, "No, it's not. That's not a good throw. That's not good enough. That hit him on his back shoulder. That could bounce off his pads, it might slow him down. He might not get the score. Mike, that ball's got to be right here, one foot diameter of accuracy in front of him so we can keep running." Meanwhile, they're teaching the wide receivers in the summer in the training camp, in their own meeting room, their responsibility is if they can touch the ball, wherever it is, they got to catch it. "Go up, get hit in the ribs, be out for eight weeks, we'll see in the playoffs. We need that catch." Can you hear the mentality? Expect much of yourself and little from others and give your best to make them successful, make it easy for them.

Jeff K:
Boy, what if husbands were like that with their wife? What if wives were like that with their husband? All husbands really need is a little bit of respect. Deep down, we're little boys that are just crying out to know, do we have what it takes? Do we measure up? Are we a man? Are we a good man? And we can handle correction and all sorts of things, but we can't handle it when we don't feel respected.

Warwick F:
It's so true.

Jeff K:
Meanwhile, poor wives. We husbands, we work our butt off, we buy a nice house, we get them the car they want, we get the kids into the school they want, we mow the lawn, we do all this stuff, we tell them we provide for them, but guess what? We don't talk to them, we don't share our feelings, we don't open up, we don't ask them questions, we don't stop and pray for them, we don't take them on dates anymore. We take them for granted. We don't cherish them, we don't tell them they're beautiful anymore, we don't apologize to them when we hurt their feelings. Basically, we're not loving them. And I'll tell you what, a woman, her currency is love, and a man's currency is respect.

Jeff K:
So, I'm talking about being a relationship investor. In football, you have to picture quarterbacks serving receivers, receivers serving quarterbacks, in marriage, husbands serving wives, wives serving husbands, in business, CEOs serving the team and the team serving one another, and then serving clients. If we had this invest in others... There's a great message that is in the Bible, the book of Philippians, which is a letter Paul wrote to a small church in the city of Philippi said, "Don't do anything out of selfish ambition, or vain conceit." That basically means don't do anything out of selfishness or pride. Well, now that rules a lot of things out for you and me, doesn't it?

Warwick F:
It does.

Jeff K:
But in humility, an attitude of humility, consider other people more important than yourself, and don't just look out for your interest, look out for their interests. It's basically saying, don't be a consumer, always worried about yourself, be an investor. Bless them, encourage them, give them the truth, be kind, prefer their preference over your own, apologize first, forgive first. This is investing. This is relationship investing. And so those three strategies, they'll change your life and they'll change the world. One, take a long term view. And I recommend you include God in it because he started you, and it's just not wise to ignore someone who is unbelievably perfect, loving and good, even though this world is jacked up. The reason it's jacked up is because we ran away from God.

Jeff K:
Number two. Be willing to change because you're humble enough to learn and grow and try something different. And number three. Why don't you try copying the greatest man that ever lived, Jesus, who didn't come to be served, but to serve. And be an investor in your spouse, your son, your rebellious teenage daughter, your estranged brother, your boss, who's a jerk, tough. Invest in him and the relationship, your employees, your team.

Warwick F:
Well, there's so many profound things there I want to talk for a minute about what you're doing now, but just in terms of transitioning to that, I want the listeners to hear there're so many profound things you said, this concept of being an investor and not a consumer. And that's a great analogy with, say, with a quarterback running to this one foot window, and receivers, if he can touch it, probably if he can kind of smell it, hear it.

Jeff K:
If anyone's close, you got to get it.

Warwick F:
Right. If it's within a 10 yard radius or something, at the risk of hyperbole, that idea of just investing in others and being willing to change. So true. Just as we transition to what you're doing now, obviously, growing up, you had one model of what it is to be a great person, your dad, politics, reaching across the aisle to people of all backgrounds, all races, all pro quarterback, incredible human being.

Jeff K:
And my mom. My mom is the unsung hero in the family. Joanne Kemp, if we show the tombstone for her, it just says, "The power of the personal." She was always personal. Relationships meant everything to her. Go ahead. I didn't mean to cut your...

Warwick F:
No, no, it's all good. But you obviously had to be willing to change. There was a point in your life, you said, "Okay, I'm probably not going to be an all pro quarterback, maybe I don't want to be a politician, or a senator, or president." Somehow you had to be willing to change from not just living your father's vision, or in my case, John Fairfax's vision, the founder. So, talk about how did you shift from kind of the football, living up to your dad's vision, to finding your own vision? Because a lot of people are trying to live other people's visions and not their own, in fact, their God given vision, from our perspective. How did you make that shift and how did that lead you to what you're doing now?

Jeff K:
Boy, I'll give a little bit of story, but the principle that I'd like people to go away with is, you know what, if you really want your ideal purpose, and vision, and mission, and calling, and role, go consult the owner's manual and talk to God, let him define it for you. The culture is jacked up, your ego is jacked up, sometimes your advisors are jacked up, as you found out. So, go on a journey spiritually and ask the Father, your Father, what he thinks.

Jeff K:
But here's how it happened for me. The off seasons had a fair amount of open time because I wasn't getting invited to all the most high profile celebrity golf tournaments like the starting quarterbacks, so I wanted to use the off season to serve in the community. And I was on a board of directors of something called Pro Athletes Outreach. I learned how to be on an executive committee, how to be on a board, I learned about budgets, I learned about strategy, I cared about ministry. We gave money to Christian charities and we learned about some of the work that they did, Focus On The Family was one of them, Family Life was another. And we did stuff in our home to help others. Okay?

Jeff K:
So, all of that gave me a vision for helping others, and I loved working in the inner city with kids. And I realized that I can't save the world, and I can't even save that many kids, but maybe I can impact the family that will impact the kid. So, that's kind of why I had a vision to go upstream and strengthen marriage and fatherhood, because that can touch a lot of kids. And I'd like to prevent problems more so than just being the band aid, which is not a fair way to say what loving kids is all about. That's not just a band aid, but you know what I mean? You got to prevent the breakup of the family, not just trying to pick up the pieces. So, that was in my head.

Jeff K:
But in '92, right after my really good year with the Eagles, and I signed a big contract, thought I was going to extend my career for a few years. I was the last guy cut, came home, no one signed me around the league for four weeks, and I was pretty upset. My prayers weren't being answered, that I get a new team. And when the Seahawks had a quarterback get hurt, and I called the coach to say, "I'm in town, please sign me." I was sure this was the answer to my prayer, he left a message and said, "Sorry, we're going to sign someone else. Good luck." Click.

Jeff K:
And I went out to the front door, and despite all this faith and maturity that I've been telling you about, I slammed the door, sat on my front step on my nice home in America, Redmond, Washington, and I started having a pity party. And I said, "This isn't fair. This isn't right. God, this stinks. I'm not going to pray. I'm just going to sit here and feel the stinking pain." And I did, I started feeling the pain. "This isn't fair. Why am I getting rejected, cut, after I've served well and been a good teammate? I just want to finish positively."

Jeff K:
Well, my wife came out, Stacy, and we'd been married 10 years by that point, and she said, "Oh, Jeff, I can't imagine how much this hurts. And I just want to encourage you, we've been through tough things, and God's always been there, he's always cared for us, he's always had a good purpose come out of it." She kind of articulated this principle. And I said, "I know that," looking up at her. "I know that. Don't tell me that. I just want to finish football with some dignity." In her head, she thought maybe he needs some tough love, not the soft stuff. So, she very gently said, "As I recall, when Jesus Christ walked this earth and he left, he didn't get any dignity. Maybe you need to let go that desire." Wow, that was like a barb into my heart.

Warwick F:
Oh, my gosh.

Jeff K:
And I looked at her in all my marriage conference speaking maturity as a husband, and I said, "Maybe you need to go inside." She went inside, left me alone. And then I think it was God that started speaking to me, and I had the worst moment of my life... This is prior to my dad's cancer and losing him, prior to a nonprofit that I ran, getting so behind in money that I had to fire myself, those two things hurt. But this was the worst crisis blitz I'd ever had, losing my career at age 32, and having the bottom dropout, realizing more of my identity was wrapped up in it than I'd ever thought.

Jeff K:
So, in a matter of seconds, I thought about what she said about Jesus, and I started realize, "Oh my gosh, what unbelievable, unconditional, courageous love he's shown for me. He forgave all my sin, he adopted me, he said I can go to heaven paradise forever, and he's given me this great wife, except for what she just said, and these three healthy kids. 11 years of pro football, I didn't deserve any of this. I was a free agent out of Dartmouth, I was a 50 to one odds guy. I am whining, wanting more? What a schmuck I am. Most of all, God loves me, and I'm his son." And I started to cry tears of gratitude and joy, and the worst moment of my life became the best spiritual moment.

Jeff K:
And here's what I get to the answer to your question. I heard, in my thoughts, in my heart, these words that were penned somewhere by the Apostle Paul, "Forget what lies behind and press onto what lies ahead."

Warwick F:
One of my favorite verses.

Jeff K:
And right there, "Oh, my gosh, football was great. It was a gift, use it as a platform, but step out of that and go into strengthening fatherhood, marriage, and families." And that's when I began my career search. I thought about corporate speaking, motivational training, a couple different things, but it was pretty clear that this calling to strengthen families was key in my life, and that's what I started doing right away. And it's only morphed into focusing more and more on men, and husbands, and then leaders who can shape the team and the culture as a way to reach the next generation, because that's kind of where my stories fit well, with leaders and with men. And then my wife and I do marriage conferences.

Warwick F:
That's awesome. Well, you have a very clear vision, a clear mission. I know your dad's been gone quite a long time now. Let's assume he's up in heaven, I think we both believe he is.

Jeff K:
Yeah. Well, you know what, he got cancer late in life, and cancer had a blessing in that it finally brought him to his knees and slowed him down and made him realize that the forgiveness of Jesus and the grace of Jesus can cover anything you ever do wrong. And I don't think he ever really understood that before. It was more metaphysical, more of a belief.

Warwick F:
I understand.

Jeff K:
More of a church thing. He could say it but he didn't feel it in his heart, and I think cancer was used by God as a blitz, to draw my dad into that personal relationship. So, I know that he's with God, with Jesus, in heaven.

Warwick F:
As he's looking down at you and your life of what you've done and what you're doing now for marriages, and men, and kids, what do you think he would say about your vision and how you're seeking to live his construct of LIFT, of life is for transformation? What do you think he would say about the man you are now and what you're doing in your ministry and all?

Jeff K:
Well, my dad did a good job with Jennifer, and Judith, and Jimmy and I of showing his pride, showing his love, kissing us, affection, hugs, approval, he bragged about us and tell all sorts of stories in his speeches about his kids, but I know that he was particularly pleased at our faith, and particularly pleased at my marriage and my fathering, and I think he was really proud.

Jeff K:
And he was a financial investor in our nonprofit work to strengthen families, and so he believed in it, but I think, with all the new insight he has up in heaven, he'd probably say, "You were a really good Kemp, but way more importantly, I think you understood that you were a child and a son of the king, and the perfect father, and you've really been a good ambassador for him. And I'm proud of that, and more importantly, God's proud of that. And I really am thankful for the fact that you let God get a hold of your life, and you let him use you to show others that God is love, that family is important, that marriage matters, and that men should be humble servants, not cocky performers."

Jeff K:
So, dad would be very happy, very proud, very complimentary. We've had our little debates and stuff, sometimes he thinks I'm too intense, which is funny, because he was pretty intense.

Warwick F:
Now, that's funny.

Jeff K:
Yeah, it was funny. But I can't wait to be with my dad again. That's going to be awesome.

Warwick F:
Well, that's great. I mean, and as we kind of wrap up here, for me, my dad was a bit more... I have more of an evangelical faith, his faith was a bit more ecumenical. But when I look at him, certainly, the founder of the company, John Fairfax, I didn't do the whole newspaper business deal, it wasn't my vision, but in terms of how he lead his life as a father, as a husband, the way he treated other people, those elements, yeah, I mean, to the degree I can, I want to emulate that, and I know you're the same way.

Warwick F:
So, we don't have to copy the vision of our fathers or ancestors, but those who are believers, there are certain things we can copy, how they treat people, how they treat their wives, and kids, and that's really what it's all about, not how much you achieve, or your bank account, or how many books you sell, or how many people listen to your speeches. I mean, that's all like dust compared to what's really important. So yeah, it's always good to remember.

Jeff K:
Mother Teresa said that her definition of success is being faithful.

Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely.

Jeff K:
Faithful means you take the gifts that God gives you and you steward them as if they belong to him and you're just taking great care of them. And sometimes we're supposed to multiply them and let things get really big, but we're never supposed to do it in a way that skips over the relationship of the soul and person you're talking to at the moment. So, if your business is pulling you away from your marriage and your kids, you're not being faithful. And if your ministry, Mr. Pastor or Mr. Churchy Guy, is taking you away from humility, and loving your wife and your kids, or your spouse, that isn't necessarily being faithful. So, I don't need to be a superstar.

Warwick F:
No. It comes back to what you said earlier is, is where is your identity? Is it in how many touchdowns you're scoring, or where you are in your career, your bank account, or even in the world of church, how big your church is? Is it in what you believe for us, our faith in Christ or others that maybe some other belief system but is your identity and what you hold most dear in life, or is it about achievement? Success and achievement is okay, but you don't want to worship it.

Jeff K:
Oh, that's the point. Yeah. Don't let anything, even good things, get in the way of loving God. And I like the phrase, let's live from our identity, which we receive from God and relationships, rather than living for our identity to try to earn it. That's a losing equation. We can look at all Hollywood, and athlete, and famous business people, celebrities, it doesn't worked out for them.

Warwick F:
That's the path to misery, not happiness. We don't want to go there.

Gary S:
This is the time in the show that I normally say it's time to land the plane. I've been waiting all episode to say, "No, it's not time to land the plane, it's the two minute warning." And I will be guilty of throwing an interception before the two minute warning, Jeff, if I did not give you the chance to tell our listeners how they can find out more about you and about the Jeff Kemp Group.

Jeff K:
Okay, thanks. First, let me say thank you to you, Gary, great job, and Warwick, and this concept of Crucible Leadership, I agree with it 100%, we're on the same page, and you're using your story and humility, and you're lifting others, and I'm a believer.

Jeff K:
Jeff Kemp Team is my platform for public speaking, men speaking, particularly conferences and retreats, where I bring faith and identity and purpose in relationships, front and foremost, and then I do CEO soul coaching. I call it soul coaching, it's not just executive coaching, it's not just mentoring, it'll touch on strategy, it'll touch on team building, it may go very deep in those areas, and I have some experience to draw upon, but it's going to start with your identity, your soul, your relationships, both vertical relationships and horizontal relationships. And then it's going to address how do you receive guidance when everyone's saying you're the boss? Are you humble enough to get guidance from God and from others? Do you have friends? Are you protected or have you moved too far to where you're isolated like many leaders become?

Jeff K:
Isolation has been America's problem, and in some cases, COVID has made it worse. So, Jeff Kemp Team is basically speaking, messaging, conferences, I put in some of my own men's retreats, but the real core is the CEO soul coaching.

Gary S:
And how do they find you online?

Jeff K:
Just go to the website, jeffkempteam.com, jeffkempteam.com, and there's a book site called facingtheblitz.com. That's really the place. My phone number is even on there. I believe in relationship. If someone needs to get a hold of me, they can give me a call or send me an email.

Gary S:
Awesome. Well, Warwick, any final question for Jeff?

Warwick F:
Maybe observation. I just love what you're doing, Jeff, Facing The Blitz. I mean, we may use different terms, but there was something that you wrote here that was... it says similar to what we talked about on Crucible Leadership. You write, "The blitz is not the end of the story, it's only the catalyst to a greater one." I mean, we use almost the same words. "The crucible is not the end of the story," as Gary will probably say here in a bit. Exactly. So, wait a minute or two, and you'll hear it, but now I just love how you forged your own path coming from a famous father, and you've got your own mission, your own vision that's yours, and you've got your identity and a higher purpose, a higher cause in the Lord.

Warwick F:
And so, yeah, I just love what you do, and your book and so much of what you wrote resonated just humbly talking about it. So many things in there makes so much sense. But you're right, as you're humble and vulnerable about what you've been through, you allow other people, and especially men who seem to have a particularly difficult time about being vulnerable and perhaps humble, you allow them to walk into that space, so you lead by example, which is what leaders do. So, I love your book and what your ministry is doing, and so yeah, it's just an honor just to chat with you and hear about it. So, thank you.

Jeff K:
My exhortation to all our listeners, women and men, and men particularly is, friendship is a wonderful thing. Don't get too busy for friendship. Secondly. You know shouldn't go along, but few of us build a team to go through life as a team. You cannot beat blitzes alone, you can't get through the crucible alone. So, you got to build your team ahead of time. I call it a huddle, Warwick. I have two best friends, and we meet every week, and we drop our guard, disclose what's going on in our life, talk about the most important thing, we admit and confess the areas where we blew it, our mistakes, our weaknesses, our sins, and then we're set free from that. And then we pray for each other, and we support each other, and we champion each other.

Jeff K:
I actually have two groups like that, one that does it by Zoom with some guys across the country, and one that does it right here in Little Rock where I live. And I enjoy friendship, and I enjoy the huddle, and I enjoy teamwork. And I would encourage everyone, build a team in your life. Maybe get a mentor, but get two or three closest friends who you can drop your guard and be real with and process your crucible, process your blitz with them and you'll be set free from the isolation, secrecy, and the shame that a lot of people live in.

Gary S:
Well, I have been in the communications business long enough to know that the clock now reads 000. That was the last word right there. Let me end, though, for the listener with three takeaways, I think, that this discussion between Jeff and Warwick has brought. Number one, is your identity is not in your accomplishments, it is not in your job title, it's not in your family history. And we've talked here today to men whose fathers were known as Mr. Secretary and Sir Warwick. It's not in your popularity or your image either, your identity. Learn the lessons of your crucible, be honest and humble enough to acknowledge where you may have gone wrong, then get up from your blitz and press on. That's point one.

Gary S:
Point two. Think of life as an opportunity to LIFT. Life is for transformation, from proud to humble, as Jeff said, from selfish to humble, from immaturity to maturity, from not so good to better. Lean into the LIFT.

Gary S:
And finally, number three. Focus on others, bless them, be an investor in relationships. Live life on purpose with your eyes, not on yourself. That is, let's mash up the language of both our host and our guest today by that is a playbook that leads to significance. Thank you for spending time with us on Beyond The Crucible, listener. Warwick and I have a little favor to ask you. Please do click subscribe on the podcast app on which you're listening right now. That will ensure that you don't miss any episodes like this fascinating conversation we had with Jeff Kemp today, it will also help us make sure that other people get access to interviews like this.

Gary S:
And until the next time we're together, do remember what we've talked about for the last hour. Do remember this truth, that your crucible is not the end of your story, your blitz is not something you can't get up from. They both can be the starting point to a new chapter in your life, to a better chapter in your life, to a more fulfilling chapter in your life, because bouncing back from your crucible and getting up and moving beyond your blitz is a path that leads to a life of significance.

Life, Dom Brightmon freely admits, can be crappy sometimes. But each of us has the power to flip the switch to “happy” — the key is to view our crucible experiences as crystal experiences. Through books (like CRAPPY TO HAPPY), public speaking, and working with men and women going through setbacks and failures, Brightmon (a member of the John Maxwell-certified leadership team) is both a teacher and practitioner of the truth that when you advance others, you advance yourself.

To learn more about Dom Brightmon, visit www.DomBrightmon.com

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

—

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Dom B:
... until you go inside, you never know what's really going on until you get a closer, deeper look into what's really going on and I feel like that's really what we all need to keep in mind and life and heck even when it comes to crucible moments of, hey, at first, a gift may be wrapped up in adversity. It may be wrapped up in barbed wire with a pink rubber duck just taunting you saying, hey, you sure you want to open me buddy? I'm going to... and it's just taunting you. Taunt like macho man, Randy Savage, a professional wrestler like, "Hey buddy, I know you want to succeed, but you got to open up this barbed wire and it's going to hurt your hands first."

Gary S:
Well, those are definitely some words of wisdom from today's guest, Dom Brightmon, who speaks with us today about how to... yeah, I'm going to say it. I'm going to dare to say it. Dom discusses with us how to wrestle with our crucible experiences. Dom offers a unique and energetic and insightful perspective on how to move beyond our crucibles. He is a certified member of the John Maxwell leadership team and the author of two and a quarter books. His first book is Going North!: Tips & Techniques to Advance Yourself. His followup was Stay The Course: The Elite Performer's 7 Secret Keys to Sustainable Success, and just out this fall is a chapter he's written in a compilation book and if this isn't a crucible leadership title, I don't know what is. This is perfect for Beyond The Crucible. He has written a chapter for a book that just came out called Crappy to Happy: Sacred Stories of Transformational Joy.

Gary S:
I'm Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the podcast and I'm going to turn you loose here for Dom and Warwick to have a conversation, but before I do I want you to grab a pen or a pencil and some paper because Dom's got some wisdom that he drops in this episode. He's a motivational speaker who talks about these things across the country or at least across Zoom as we sort of face the pandemic that we're facing right now, but here's just one of the things that Dom says in the episode that you're going to want to write down. I'll give you a headstart and that is this, your adversity can be your advantage. Let's hear Dom Brightmon and Warwick unpack that for us right now.

Warwick F:
Well, thanks so much and Dom really appreciate you coming on the podcast and yeah. I'd love to hear more here in a bit about your book Going North and your podcast on that and just how you help coach folks. Before we get into that, tell us a bit about Dom Brightmon and kind of how you grew up. I understand you're in Baltimore, I'm a few miles down the road in Annapolis, Maryland. Same state, home of, I guess, the Maryland Terrapins. If you're not from Maryland, you probably have no idea what a terrapin is. I think it's some kind of snappy turtle from what I understand.

Warwick F:
Fear the Turtle, I don't know why you're meant to fear a turtle, but if you're in Maryland I guess you're meant to tell people, be afraid of the turtle. There we go, a little Maryland deal there. Tell us about yourself just growing up here and Baltimore area and yeah, your family and all that.

Dom B:
Sure thing. Well, first off, I like to say never hesitate to show gratitude. Thank you both team George Washington, Mr. Gary, and Warwick yourself for allowing me to be able to share this time with you. This is amazing. Outside of the intro, like my aim it to advance others to advance myself because I believe in coaching and empower others to share their stories, their motivational teaching and book casting because with motivational teaching as opposed to motivational speaking, you get to leave people with tangible tips and techniques they can walk out with, along with their motivation instead of being motivated to run through a brick wall and then they're wondering to themselves, okay, why am I charging for this brick wall here? Why am I doing this? And really just giving them something tangible to walk away with. That's a little bit about me, at least the short version of it.

Warwick F:
Yeah, no, that's great. Tell us about your family. You grew up in Baltimore. Who was like a young Dom? What were you like as a kid in elementary school and all?

Dom B:
Oh yeah. Young Dom, pretty much a quiet kid funny enough. Went to grade school. Probably most of my time, if it wasn't at home or playing with my friends, it was most likely in school or possibly church, because I think it was about two weeks old, got christened in the church and I was basically raised in the church from a whole life because my father, he was a spiritual man even though he still had short backs, like we all do. We're all human. No, one's perfect and all that good stuff.

Dom B:
He took me to Sunday school every morning. Basically from 8:30 to around good 2:30 PM every Sunday. I'd basically be in a church, Sunday school service and then of course as a black Baptist church so you know the pastor is going to say I'm going to close and then he's got another hour to go.

Gary S:
Yeah. It reminds me of a joke. What does it mean when a pastor looks at his watch? Nothing.

Warwick F:
Exactly. When you listen to your dad and say, I'm going to close, it's like "Dad, come on. I mean, for once, can you actually mean it?" I mean, you ever kid him about that? It's like, why do you say that?

Dom B:
Oh, well, that's the good thing. He was the preacher himself. Funny enough, he joked around when he was a kid because funny enough, my grandfather was a preacher and when it was time to pray around the family room, and they would do prayers, they would pray all night. Even as a kid, he'd be like, "Hey, can we pray one prayer please? Just one." And all the grownups just laughed at him because he was so right. I'm pretty sure God gets the point.

Warwick F:
As you were growing up with this kind of heritage, was it ever like... Well, Dom it's pretty clear what the Lord will have for you. We've had two generations of preachers. Really the question is what kind of preaching do you want to do? What kind of church, I mean, was ever that expectation that you'd absolutely go into the... I don't know about family business, but family heritage and all?

Dom B:
No. Well, let me clarify the generational preaching part. My grandfather was a preacher, but my father wasn't.

Warwick F:
Okay.

Dom B:
He actually spent time in the military. He actually served in World War II, funny enough, and the Korean War in the 82nd Airborne Division as a paratrooper.

Warwick F:
Oh wow.

Dom B:
He actually spent time in the service in terms of service for the country in addition to being a spiritual man. For me the preaching like, folks have been... probably like 95% of people probably think I'm a preacher right now and I don't even try to come across that way especially becasue like, "Hey, you look like that preacher on TV. Hey, make sure to share the tithe money and bless up some other people." I'm like, "What? I don't have a title. I just got slacks and a shirt."

Warwick F:
That's funny, but it's kind of probably in the blood. I understand that one of the things you did growing up is you spent time in the library like a summer internship which turned out to be, I don't know, somewhat of a key part of your journey. Talk about why the library? Because from what I understand, you weren't really into reading books. How did that all happen?

Dom B:
Oh, yeah, it was funny back then too, because back then I wasn't really into reading books because with grade school they gave you books that you don't want to read. They'll put you straight to sleep. Funny enough, remember back in 11th grade reading a book over the summer for a book project and after page two, I fell straight asleep and then I came too at 10:00 PM, a few hours later, like oh, whoops. That was the same year that it kind of brings back to the part of me being a quiet kid. My mom knew I was a quiet kid and she wanted me to get some work experience as quickly as possible, at least give myself an advantage.

Dom B:
Out of nowhere, like a spirit told her like, "Hey, why don't you to see if you can get Dom a job at the library?" She called the HR office. They had an opportunity available. I worked there as a summer youth intern in the summer of my 11th grade year, and those three months were interesting. Even got paid for, is a paid internship, and my work was good enough and they liked me enough to bring me back on as a part-time employee when I turned 16, when it was actually legal to do so. Just doing that, and I was surprised because I was still the quiet kid. I haven't really gotten to the part where I can be one of those ambiverts, the extroverted introvert, was able to be a social butterfly but still recharges when he's not around people.

Dom B:
Just that summer youth internship, being able to be liked well enough to be brought back because I was always the kid who would always do his work. Funny enough, like even my humor was developing at the time because my first time there, the supervisor's like, so do you come to the library a lot? And I was like, yeah, I do. I come here twice a year and everybody just burst out laughing. So yeah, reading wasn't my thing and libraries weren't my thing and I thought that was a lot. It's like I got two big projects a year. I come here to take the books out and check them back in. As the years gone by, I realize, "Oh, people come here every day. Every day." It's a community resource and one guy says he's a security guard. He's like, "I see people here more often than I see my wife."

Male:
Wow.

Dom B:
That's how much people still use local libraries these days and that really experience just being around those wonderful folks with diverse backgrounds helped me to realize, you know what? I can learn to deal with people with different generations, different nationalities. Like with a lot of our work that in particular, there's a little part where Storyville was for kids birth to five, where you get them ready for kindergarten, then they have a stream space and then for the teenagers, it was next door to high school.

Dom B:
One hundredths of 300 teens would come to the building after school, a good 2:30 PM in the middle of the day and then of course they get senior citizens, especially years ago when e-readers were getting extra big back then before smartphones got bigger. They just needed help using their tools they got for Christmas and heck even helping folks find employment. Libraries are more than books and I had to learn that after working there for a few years and going in, because I thought like, "Oh, just go to the card catalog, pick up a book." Like, no, it's actually bigger than that. It's a community resource because, especially nowadays where people don't all have reliable Wi-Fi and they go to parking lots of library, especially in the Baltimore County area-

Male:
Sure.

Dom B:
... to use the Wi-Fi during the whole pandemic things. That really lets me broadening my mind. It's kind of like the whole outside looking in thing until you go inside. You never know what's really going on until you get a closer, deeper look into what's really going on, and I feel like that's really what we all need to keep in mind in life and that even when it comes to crucible moments of, hey, at first a gift may be wrapped up in adversity. It may be wrapped up in barbed wire with a pink rubber duck just taunting you saying, "Hey, you sure you one open me buddy? I'm going to... and it's just taunting you. Taunt like macho man, Randy Savage, a professional wrestler like, "Hey buddy, I know you want to succeed, but you got to open up this barbed wire and it's going to hurt your hands first."

Dom B:
It's kind of like that thing, so yeah, it's been really just that going forward, just taking a deeper look and realizing that there's a gift in every adverse and there's a gift when you look deeper into certain situations and environments.

Warwick F:
Sounded like that library opened up a whole window to the world, which obviously vicariously you can have an idea of what's going on in the world in books, but just your community and different age groups, different people's challenges and you're helping them, your work ethic. You're finding... I'm getting things done. Dom's responsible. You finding a sense of humor. You don't always think of the library as being a key part of the journey, but it seemed like it was for you all the ways you just described, which is amazing.

Warwick F:
I know from... Understand that you've had a couple of crucibles, I think you almost had a car accident when you were 21. Now, a lot of people when they're young, they have car accidents. It's not that uncommon, but somehow for you, this was a bit of a transition point for you. Talk about why that was the transition point.

Dom B:
Yeah, the wonderful TP that we all need in life, a transition.

Warwick F:
The blessing of a transition point or... is the gift wrapped in barbed wire, that kind of thing. Oh please. Thank you so much.

Dom B:
Exactly, but yeah it was just... Yeah, it was one heck of a transitional point because really that day I was expecting just to go to class and then celebrate with some family, some friends later on in the day, not expecting to fricking wreck my car making a left turn no less and blocking up traffic for good. Man, my God, it was a good 90 minutes.

Warwick F:
Wow.

Dom B:
And having to call two, it was two different tow trucks actually. Because I called AAA first after the accident and then they were on their way and then while the traffic was being backed up, a police officer drove passed and he noticed something was going on. He called his guy since the AAA guy didn't show up and both tow trucks showed up at the same time and I was like, okay, I guess I got the insurance for this when you can call up your guy and then when the AAA guy came to tow my car, he was like, "Oh this truck isn't built for this kind of situation." Because my wheel was detached from one side of my car and then it was so darn plotted sit on the ground, that it was hard to drag it onto the truck with his tools that he had.

Dom B:
All of a sudden they call back the other tow truck and that just made it even longer and just really long story short, that really helped me to realize like, hey, I got to really shape up here because... I told my mom about it. She's still in the Maryland area and still lived with them at the time when this accident happened. She was the other person I called when the first people called after trying to get the car towed away. I was still a little shell shocked from the whole situation. I was like, God, darn I can't believe I fricking crashed my car like this. I'm not going to be able to drive it again. How the heck am I going to continue? Class like this, might take the bus or something.

Dom B:
This was the year where was the penultimate semester was the second to last semester before I got an IT degree at the school. I was so close to the finish line, and that's the other thing about the moment. It's like when you're so close to that goal, there's always going to be that one final test that really stands-

Warwick F:
Right.

Dom B:
... out to really make sure to test you to see if you really want to finish. If you want to be an uncommon finisher, you're going to have to find your uncommon strength that was lying deep within all of us to really push beyond that moment. Sometimes it even requires the help of another person. Like my mom says like, "Hey, you've come too far to quit. God's got big plans for you because you're still alive." Because I walked out no injuries from that situation, and she say, "Hey, you can do it."

Warwick F:
How did that change your perspective on life? I mean, what about that was a turning point?

Dom B:
What made it a turning point is the fact that one is the first time that something like that really happened to me on that large scale. Like the closest thing that could really take place for that moment really had pretty much an easy childhood for the most part with the parents and everything and that was really something that just came flying out of nowhere. What made it really a turning point was the fact that that was actually a month after my father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

Dom B:
That was what really happened, is the fact that it was just really another hit to the face, where it's like, okay, I'm seeing my hero decay. I can't even drive my car anymore. Like am I going to be able to get to class and finish this darn degree? And then heck even a couple of weeks after that being called in, went in a meeting with my boss at the time and telling me like, "Hey, you got to shape up here." Because she didn't know what was going on. I like to keep the personal and the professional life separate.

Dom B:
I never told anyone about it until of course the books came out, but that's all in the story and just realize that you know what? These three things realize, you know what? Something needs to change here. Something needs to change. Looking back at that meeting with the boss, yeah she yelled at me but at the same time, she also said that folks are going to be looking to me as a leader because she was having some new hires come in at the time since it was the new school year, and I looked up the leadership section of the library where I picked up a book by John Maxwell.

Dom B:
It helped me to really change my life and find personal and professional development to become a voracious reader again. It actually changed my perspective and realized, you know what? The car accident was a wake up call. My father falling, yeah that was a wake up call to basically make sure I take better care of him and always be grateful for him, and really a wake up call to take it up to the next level and realize that you can't really go through a life on a plain meadow, like an open land.

Dom B:
There's going to be some valley moments. There's going to be some mountains you have to climb. You have to go uphill. Sometimes you have to go back downhill and metaphorically unlearn some things like the love for reading. That was something I unlearned through grade school, but I relearned after having those moments come crashing down on me forcing me to do something different. Sometimes it just takes moments like that to help you realize you know what? Something needs to change me. Those people to remind us like, "Hey, your adversity can be your advantage."

Warwick F:
It almost seems like you had a renewed sense of purpose. You kind of rolling through life doing okay. Life wasn't terrible after that point, but somehow the combination of the accident, your dad's Alzheimer's, the conversation with your boss. Somehow did it feel that sense of, I need more of a purpose, more of a direction, or rather than just kind of flowing through life or with something like that?

Dom B:
Oh yeah. Because one of my mentors liked to say, don't go with the flow because dead fish go with the flow.

Gary S:
Wisdom.

Warwick F:
Right. Okay. Good to know. Somebody says Dom, just go with the flow. He says, no, no. No, no. I don't go with the flow.

Warwick F:
Don't do that.

Dom B:
Exactly. Because I don't want to be in the frying pan later.

Warwick F:
Exactly. It's amazing that you didn't have much of a love for reading, but then reading self-development John Maxwell, that kind of fueled, that next direction... I want to ask about that, but I'm curious, you said... well, obviously when your dad gets a diagnosis of Alzheimer's, it just feels like this slow death sentence when the person who they were begins to evaporate before your eyes, which is obviously crushing. Talk about why he was your hero, because not everybody says their dad or their mom for that matter is their hero. Why did you see your dad as your hero?

Dom B:
A powerful question. Powerful question. Yeah, like I said earlier, like this first time someone actually asked me that. I'm blessed to say that my dad was one of my heroes in life because the whole spiritual foundation, always taking me to church every Sunday school and helped me to get that biblical foundation, and the fact that... he actually had gray hair all of my life. Like I've never seen... I've seen him with number... gray beard, gray hair on his head. What really made him my hero is that he always made sure that when it came time to pick me up from school, he would always be on time and show up early.

Dom B:
One time when he fell asleep preparing dinner for the family later, he apologized to me because he showed up five minutes late one day, and I'm like, it didn't matter to me because I was still grateful to have a ride home from school and all that other good stuff. He felt bad that he was late for picking me up and even more importantly, even though he was in his early 80s, he was still volunteering at the church during the daytime to keep himself active because we would have a Maryland food... We would be sponsored by the Maryland Food Bank. That was one of our resources, it could be a soup kitchen at the church I attend.

Dom B:
We would get food from there. Since the church doesn't have too many young folks available during the daytime, the trustees, he was a trustee of the church. He would help lift those heavy boxes. And mind you, he was around a good 83, 85 still doing this. One time we're having a conversation on the way back home from class, and I was like, "Hey, so Dave, why are you still working as hard as you do when you could probably let somebody else do it?" You've worked all your life. You had two combat jumps in World War II. You served the country. You were a bus driver for 35 years and dealt with all that stress of dealing with all that, and you could just really rest and enjoy yourself because... like he retired, I think was like '95 and it was around a good... my goodness, think it was probably a good 10 plus years past retirement where a lot of his friends died a couple of days after they retired and he's lived a whole decade plus after it.

Dom B:
I'm like, why don't you enjoy yourself? And he's like, "Hey, I'm enjoying myself still because God's given me life and it would be a disservice to not use my time here, my life to help other people." This is a guy at 85 saying that and I'm like, wow. Just that really just... really made him my hero in life because he was there for me, always gave me some foundational principles and heck even the humor side where he sometimes will be so soft-spoken and quiet and everything enjoying himself and at sometimes when he gets around other buddies, he'll bust out a random joke and have the whole group of guys laughing and I got to see some of his other side too and really just seeing the fact that parts of my life were emulated from him consciously and subconsciously and I didn't even know what I wasn't aware of it at the time. That's the main reason I consider him one of my heroes.

Warwick F:
Boy, I mean, it's a privilege to have a parent like a dad like that as a man of tremendous faith. Great character. He's always there for you. Not quitting irrespective of age and lifting those boxes, involvement in church. I mean, that's a great heritage. I often think that the heritage we have is often just... if we are blessed to have a family, legacy of character and faith, and this listeners would know the guy that started the family newspaper business in Australia, 150 years before my great, great grandfather. He was an elder in his church, wonderful husband, wonderful father, employees loved him.

Warwick F:
There was that heritage of character that was spread through the generations, of a sense of service and humility. With that kind of legacy is something that is just a gift to the future generations. I should know this, but are you married with kids? I should know this, I guess. Somehow I don't know that, but I should ask you that. Do you have-

Dom B:
Oh no. No, not yet. I'm not rushing that. I'm 29.

Warwick F:
Okay. Good.

Dom B:
I'm in no rush for that right now.

Warwick F:
No worries. If and when that happens, you'll have an amazing legacy and story to tell about their grandfather and that kind of heritage. It'd be really cool. Go ahead.

Gary S:
I want to jump in here for the listeners and just sort of recap what we've just talked about, Warwick and Dom aside from living in Maryland, probably couldn't be more different in how they were brought up and they've lived their lives, but we've just heard both of them listener, talk about the importance of one of their forefathers. In Dom's case his dad, and Warwick's case his father as well as he talked here about his great, great grandfather and the importance and the power of the legacy that those individuals left in their lives and the lives that they're leading now.

Gary S:
I said at the top of the show in finishing Dom's bio, that his mantra is advance others to advance yourself. You know listener from previous episodes and following Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible, Warwick talks about living a life on purpose and leaving a legacy, living a life of significance, right? Advance others to advance yourself could be the mantra of both of these men whose experiences are vastly different. One of the many things that they have in common emotionally is that they had someone who poured life into them and that's gotten them now living lives of significance.

Gary S:
I just thought that's really important for listeners to grasp, but it's not so much how much you have in common with someone, it's the things you do have in common that can propel your life forward in meaningful ways.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. I often think as people pour life into you, to use your expression, it enables you to pour life into others. Clearly your heritage, your dad has fueled what you do now. Talk a bit about how... stuff you grew up with, whether it's dad, church, things you learned in the library, how all that kind of fueled what you do with John Maxwell coaching and your book, Going North and podcast, Going North. I have a feeling there's a link between all those strands that fuels your mission and your purpose. Talk about that.

Dom B:
Ah, my pleasure indeed. It does all tie together like a patchwork quilt. Yes, indeed. The patches do a lot of work. I have to say that much because really I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. I guess in this case, sitting on the shoulders of giants, because they've like... really with the books like when you get a $25 package that someone probably took 25 plus years of their life to really put together, or maybe even shorter or longer and you get to borrow their experience and then take the meat out of it, throw out the bones and then put it to your life and apply it to your life and then apply a smaller version of it and then share with others, then you'll create a version of your own success that you want, because that's another thing too. Like it looks to me like success.

Dom B:
You can ask like five different people and you'll get five different answers. Like you read a certain book and you might get five different meanings or five different translations. Really everything that I do is because I've had great folks in my life. My father, my parents, my older brother like siblings, heck even mentors and coaches that have really inspired me to really take it to another level and really create something for myself like my podcast itself.

Dom B:
It's all about interviewing other authors to give them a platform to share their stories because we get to learn from one another from sharing our stories and we get to be inspired by hearing one another's stories especially in this era of a need of vulnerability where vulnerability has become a buzzword because people are tired of folks faking the funk like those who like to maybe put their curated feed out in social media and make people think that's their whole entire life when at the end of the day those pitches may not be a complete mirror of what's really going on.

Dom B:
People really want folks that are actually real down to earth and give it to you straight, no chaser, some may say and just compiling those stories into create concept and give people the motivation to run for a lifetime. Because it's another thing too. Like if one good person sees something good in you, you can run for a lifetime and just wanted to give that to the people because honestly, a lot of people may not know what they're doing, but if they hear someone else who is confident in not knowing what they're doing but still taking action, then that'll make it even better. Because I remember going to a Toastmasters meeting a few years ago, I think it was 2014, and met a bunch of friendly faces and they had a guest speaker at this meeting. His name was Daniel Ally. He gave this speech how to act like a leader.

Dom B:
The acronym for act was audacious, contagious and tenacious. That inspired me to really take it to another level because he also had a book called You Are the Boss! and he was only a couple of years older than me. He was 25 at the time. I was like, "Wait, this guy in his 20s is speaking around the freaking country and eventually the world and he's got a book and he's writing about the things I'm already reading about." I'm like, "I can do that too." And I became an author a couple of years later because someone else's action was the inspiration for me to get my butt moving even further and keep going.

Dom B:
The person listening right now, not just my stories, but the other stories in the past and heck even Warwick's powerful story and I'm sure Gary has got stories too that he hasn't even shared as much as he probably would like to yet, is the fact that we can all be inspired by another's stories no matter what level of success you have.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that is so true. We need, I don't want to say heroes, which we need heroes. It's what we need real authentic, vulnerable people that we can learn from. It's funny. I had somebody on the podcast recently, Chris Tuff who wrote a book, The Millennial Whisperer. It's sort of a catchy title. Certainly what he's saying is millennials, which is 20 somethings to early 30s, they crave authenticity, vulnerability. They don't want just fabricated plastic politician or business people, the perfect hair, the perfect smile, all that kind of thing. They can see through inauthentic people a mile away. There's just zero tolerance and people crave in our pre-packaged world we live in, they want the real, the vulnerable, the authentic.

Warwick F:
You're sharing stories of real people. You probably don't share people who have plastic stories, I'm guessing. You share the real stuff. People who are willing to go there, authentic and we need that because yeah, I mean, you were inspired by whether it's obviously dad being proud of John Maxwell team, listening to this guy who was a couple years older than you. Gosh, if he can do it, heck I can do that. You know? I mean, my gosh. It's like this is mission possible. I can do this thing, right? What is it you love to do in what you do? If somebody said, "Okay, well, Dom, what is your purpose in all this?"

Dom B:
Yeah, my purpose, I feel like would be to help others realize that success is tangible. Success is tangible because a lot of folks, especially folks in like the lower parts of Baltimore and folks who've had rough upbringings and heck, we've all gone through some rough stuff this year, I'm sure, with everything and just helping to realize that, hey, no matter what happens, you can still push beyond these moments and create some success for yourself. Like for myself so far, a couple of books and a podcast and getting out and sharing inspirations to the other folks and not being afraid to really talk to the folks who may have tons more followers and big followers than me on my show and just learning from them. Because that's another thing too, is to learn from other people as opposed to like seeing somebody who may have like tangible success or whatever getting jealous.

Dom B:
Instead of getting jealous, find out what they did to create that because I feel like that's something that gets a lot of people in the wrong ways. Like you know what? Instead of getting jealous someone, how do they get to that point? What did they do? And try to emulate them as opposed to getting mad and trying to complain about them, and then on your end, you may feel like, yeah, I'm telling the world how bad this person is. Like, yeah, they're selling you a bill of goods of nothing. At the end of the day, you're actually really helping them to get their message out there even more because haters make you greater, like a hater maybe somebody who may see somebody who may be doing something and they may not like it and then we actually check out the person they're spewing the hate about. You may think, hey, this person ain't that bad, I actually like what they have to say.

Dom B:
I'm just going to keep following them and seeing what they're doing, so really just helping folks to realize that success is tangible. Like if you want to publish a book and join what I like to call the business of immortality, creating a piece of yourself that'll be here long after you're gone, then that can happen. Even though times are rough, this is still one of the best times to be alive in because there's access to so many things to really help you create something that you may have been wanting to create for a long time.

Dom B:
Heck even one lady in a book club yesterday mentioned how she said, thank God for COVID. She's like, I'm sorry for the lives that have been lost and counting during this whole situation but my faith has never been stronger. I've never had this much time to actually get more work done, to be quiet with myself more often because before COVID a lot of people are running and gunning and they may have forgotten why they're running and gunning for. Like really just that sound to really be still and seeing that moment going beyond the crucible in a way and realize that, hey, this crucible moment can be a crystal moment.

Gary S:
Ooh. I like that.

Warwick F:
Wow.

Gary S:
I like that.

Warwick F:
That is cool. I mean, you've said a lot of powerful things there. I mean, you give people hope, you inspire people. It's funny. We talk about crucible moments. Some people say, what do you mean crucible moment, it's a crucible life. I've only ever known crucible, fire, brimstone, pain. It's like a drop of grace of that cool water in the furnace. That would be a dream, but right now my life is a cauldron in the furnace and that's sadly real for people, too many people and it is easy to get bitter and angry and hate.

Warwick F:
You have to ask yourself, how much does hate really serve you? Does it help you? Does it really serve you? Sometimes it's one of the things we talk about and it's funny, people in the business world don't talk a lot about forgiveness, but sometimes it's like forgiveness is different than acceptance. Something may have been done to you and it's wrong. It's unjustifiable. Sometimes it's pretty difficult to change in terms of the macro picture. We can't change a lot of the structural systemic things that unfortunately are in life and have been for, well, probably thousands of years.

Warwick F:
Forgiving doesn't mean accepting, but it's like, okay, I may not like it but I'm not going to let this pull me down. Because bitterness stops you achieving your dreams. It's like, okay. Just because you're not angry and forgive and not bitter, it doesn't mean you agree or accept. It's fun... Sometimes you think if I forgive, then I'm condoning. Forgiving and condoning are different, but does that make sense? Like living a life of hate and bitterness even if it's understandable or justifiable, how does that really help you? How does that help you advance? I mean, does that make sense?

Dom B:
Oh yeah. It makes perfect sense. Funny enough, I was talking in front of her show goes live in October, Rev. Misty Tyme. She actually has a book called The Forgiveness Solution. The things you said Warwick like, they aligned with what she was saying too and she actually does keynote presentation and things like that because she's been there a lot herself with a rough upbringing. Heck, even dealing with past the spousal situations and learning to forgive is different from condoning.

Dom B:
It's like, just because... You can forgive somebody, but that doesn't mean you have to condone the behavior. Like that's something totally different and that's something I feel like a lot of folks need to keep in mind, is like, hey, you can forgive the person because it's really for you so that way you can keep going and be lighter in life because a lot of folks are carrying weight. I'm not just talking about the COVID 15 to 35 from the COVID 19, ...folks just crashed on a bunch of jokes.

Warwick F:
And Netflix, right? And Netflix, yeah.

Dom B:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. That too. That's really just the power of truly forgiving. Like, hey, you can forgive the person but look at the behavior objectively, just separating the behavior from the person. Like, all right, the person can always change. We can always change. We're subconsciously changing whether you believe it or not and it could be a change for the better or for the worse, but the behavior, if we can bring that to their attention and they can nip that in the bud early, that's a whole different situation. I'll fully agree with that. Fully agree with that.

Warwick F:
Yeah. It's funny, I often say about forgiveness, is that, why should you forgive? Because you're worth it. Not forgiving, it puts you in prison. In a prison of bitterness and anger and it just... it's like a living in a prison with toxic chemicals. I mean, it erodes and destroys your soul. Why? You're worth a lot more. It's like they often could care less. Don't give them the satisfaction. If you want to use some tortured, twisted logic, it's like forgive because you're worth it.

Warwick F:
Talk a bit about... you mentioned some people, their lives are pretty difficult. How do you give people hope? You in some ways were blessed in terms of the parents you've had and the dad you had, but a lot of people aren't blessed with that. There are some people that have terrible upbringings, live in a terrible neighborhood. Their lives are terrible. How do you give people whose situation seems hopeless, how do you give them hope? How do you inspire those folks?

Dom B:
Yes. One of the first things I'd like to do is listen to people, give them some time because that's really what a lot of people need nowadays, is someone just to listen to them. It's like the classic time when you may greet somebody with the, how you doing, and you really don't want to know how they're doing. Just being courteous to people, but usually if I ask somebody that, I usually expect an answer usually. If that doesn't work, even sometimes adding in a little humor to if they're open to it because sometimes folks really need just a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine of life go down a lot easier.

Dom B:
Just really just humor, the power of listening, and just really a smile as well and heck even sharing someone a positive word and reminding people, it's like hey, just because someone on paper may have all these titles and accomplishments, that doesn't mean they don't take bio breaks. We all have to take bio breaks here just to keep a little clean air for the listeners.

Warwick F:
Yeah, no. It's so true.

Dom B:
Yeah. Just remind the folks like hey, like me too. Just because I got some victories that doesn't mean I'm still not sure, but I'm like, hey, I still struggled from day to day. I still have to remind myself that I can still get things done and I can still be confident enough to really speak and inspire people because like with the whole COVID thing, like even having anxiety attack, because... I got an email from my day job and it was because of a miscommunication error and I'm like, oh crap, hope they don't can me here because the whole side hustle side thing that dried up for a bit and it's like, I don't really have it to where it's matching or at least exceeding the day job costs and it's like crappy. If something stupid happens, and I don't have medical insurance then I might be screwed up, especially for some of the folks who may be relying on me too and just realizing that, hey, I still struggle too.

Dom B:
Like nobody is immune from struggle and adversity. No one's immune. If you think you're immune, then you basically haven't lived long enough.

Gary S:
And that's a great place to begin the process. I think I can hear in the background the captain may have turned the fasten seatbelt sign on and we're going to... We'll circle the airport a couple of times, but we got to land the plane pretty soon, but that's an excellent point to what I'm sure is the next question that Warwick has, and that is, as you're offering hope to people, one of the things that you've done is you've written books to help people draw some of that perspective out. I wanted you to know, Dom, because we're interviewing you today and you started out not loving books much, and then you loved them and then you became an author. I wanted you to know that I wore this. If you're watching on YouTube-

Dom B:
Yeah.

Gary S:
If you're watching on YouTube, I'm wearing an author T-shirt...

Dom B:
Yes.

Gary S:
... underneath my sport coat in honor of Dom, but that those books that you've written are things that when you can't speak to people, they can unpack the wisdom that you have and I wanted to give you a chance before we finish up the questioning to tell people how they can find you on the internet, how they can find your books, how they can learn more about Don Brightmon on the web.

Dom B:
Sure thing. Folks can head over to dombrightmon.com, dombrightmon.com. If you head up there-

Gary S:
That's B-R-I-G-H-T-M-O-N.com. We'll have them in the show notes too, but that's the address.

Dom B:
Oh yeah, that's right. He's right about that. Definitely the show notes. You got to show your notes in math class, you got to show your notes in podcasts apparently.

Warwick F:
That is... I wanted to briefly ask about... you have a thing called MITCH. M-I-T-C-H, five keys for elite performance but before you answer that, I just wanted to make a quick observation that as you're talking about dealing with people with really difficult circumstances, by just listening to them, giving them a little bit of hope, it's like a drop of grace. A little bit of hope helps you take one more step and then that one more step leads to another. The journey to maybe a life that's about a... it just begins with somebody having a listening ear and giving them a little hope.

Warwick F:
It doesn't take much to help you take one more baby step and that's what you do just in your life, in your books. I just wanted to just throw that observation in there, but talk a little bit about MITCH and that's an amazing acronym. What is MITCH, the five keys for elite performance?

Dom B:
Sure thing. Sure thing. I have to think of a Gary or Warwick acronym. I know. If listeners name MITCH, they're going to be happy about this, but MITCH, the five keys for elite performance. The M stands for mental awareness. Mental awareness, being aware of what's going on in your mind. The I stands for influence awareness, being aware of the things around you that influence you. Like this podcast right now, that's a good influence. Binge on Netflix for 10 hours after listening to a podcast, maybe not so good. It's a detox, but maybe not for 10 hours.

Dom B:
The T is for time awareness, being aware of your time. The reason why I put time awareness as opposed to time management is because one, it goes to the theme of awareness and two, you can't really manage time because we all have the same amount. We just have to decide which activities we put in those blocks of time and it's really where our attention goes. Then the C is for connection awareness, are you connecting with wonderful people that'll really help you to think better, to live better and become better.

Dom B:
Do you have your metaphorical Wi-Fi signal open to receive the abundance that awaits you if you meet wonderful people, and the H to put the cap on everything is habit awareness. Because the habits that we have on the daily will decide where our future and our destiny will end up, because if you're not getting enough sleep daily then it's going to show up in your work when you're short with people, especially since nowadays everyone's in the people business whether they realize it or not, and it's now more than ever where we need empathy.

Dom B:
And if you're well, or your cup of empathy is empty, then basically you have to go back to your habits to realize, okay, am I getting enough sleep? Am I actually giving myself enough time for myself? Am I actually doing something to take care of myself and just really putting all those things together to really help you to become a top elite performer and that's the major keys that helped me to really get out of the grief and some setbacks over these past couple of years when building a wonderful life that I've been blessed to live up to this point.

Gary S:
That makes me wish my name was MITCH, to be honest.

Warwick F:
In the days we're living in, as we close here, in COVID there's this as much division in the US and probably the world as there's ever been. A lot of anger, grief. I mean, we live in just such challenging days. What's sort of a word of hope for people when they feel like things are so difficult, things are so bleak. What hope would you sort of give it like a thought, just for people that are feeling there's not much hope around?

Dom B:
Sure thing. You are somebody's gift whether you know it or not, because there was a Facebook post from an independent musician on YouTube where he was sharing a post that was asking folks how long has it been since your last suicide attempt? And he said five years, and then a few other folks were listing their years. Some said four, some said three, some said two and one of them, I actually listened to some of his music and I was a fan of it and I'm like, hey, keep pushing forward and keep being better and realize that, hey, you're someone's gift. Like I listen to your album at least once every other month. I listen to it every year man, like keep pushing us. I love your work.

Dom B:
I didn't even know that they were going through that. You are someone's gift. Make sure that you remember you were always someone's gift. You may not know it now, you may not think it now. It's hard to see it where you are now, but keep pushing and you'll eventually see that are you are someone else's gift because taking your life will be taking that gift away from someone else and it'll be taking away the future that you can create not only for yourself, but for those you love.

Gary S:
Wow. As I say, increasingly on this podcast, because we get such good guests with such great insights. I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last best word has been spoken, and Dom has spoken it. Let me wrap up with three takeaways I think that come from this a really, really insightful conversation with Don Brightmon. One, look for the gifts in adversity. There may be, as Dom explained it, some barbed wire on the package that that gift arrives in, but you have to unwrap it. You may get cut. It may draw a little blood physically and emotionally, but you can get through it. You can not just survive, but you can thrive.

Gary S:
Adversity is not a period in your life story, it's a comma and life can be as Dom's latest book contribution puts it, it can go from crappy to happy. That's point one. Point two, look to others to help you move beyond your crucibles, family, friends, associates at work, they will encourage you. They'll educate you. They'll help you heal from the hits to the face as Dom put it earlier in this episode. Moving beyond a crucible is not an individual sport like tennis, it's a team sport like football. Like football, you're going to get knocked about a bit, but you'll also score touchdowns because you have a team behind you that's all kind of driving in the same direction toward those goalposts.

Gary S:
Your crucible moment can be a crystal moment, and I'll stop here and say copyright 2020 Dom Brightmon. Just so no one thinks I'm trying to take credit for his fantastic intellectual property, and then point three as a takeaway from this episode listener. Advance others to advance yourself. That's Dom's mantra. The way to fill up your legacy glass is to pour into the lives of others.

Gary S:
Thank you for spending time with us here on Beyond the Crucible and this discussion we've had with Don Brightmon. Warwick and I have a favor to ask you. If you've enjoyed this conversation, if you've enjoyed previous conversation, we'd ask that you would click subscribe on the podcast app in which you're listening to us right now. That ensures that you'll never miss an episode and we have, I can tell you, because we've recorded some of them already. We have some interviews coming up that are just as exciting and exciting in different ways even, than this one has been with Dom. We've got good content on the line, as they say. Click subscribe and you'll never miss an episode.

Gary S:
Until the next time we are together here on Beyond the Crucible, remember that your crucible experiences are painful. They can be in Dom's language, crappy, but happy is just over the wall. You can move from that to happiness. If you learn the lessons of your crucible, if you dig in and do the hard work, if you work through what that barbed wire has done to you as you had that crucible moment, those crucible experiences can be not by far not the end of your story, not a period to your sentence, but a comma because what can happen is the next chapter in your story once you learn those lessons and move on.

Gary S:
The next chapter in your story can be the most rewarding chapter of your life because in the end that chapter, the last page of that, is a life of significance.

Moving beyond your crucible is hard work, even harder when the circumstances that knocked you off your feet seem to linger forever. How do you get going again when it feels like your crucible is a bottomless pit, a black hole? Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax lays down a roadmap for getting back on track toward a life of significance. “It’s not an easy cycle to break when you’re at the bottom of your crucible,” he says. But it can be done … if you embrace the power of one small step.

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

—

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible, I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. Even when life can feel overwhelming and there's no hope, just take that one small step. It could be apply for that next position, even when you think it's hopeless, have that one more networking call. In J.K. Rowling's case, send out one more manuscript to one more publisher, whatever the positive step is, no matter how small each day, try to take one small step. It could be journaling about the kind of position you would like to get, but it's... The importance of taking one small step at a time each day each week, that is probably the foundation of getting out of the bottomless pit, even when that small step can seem like, well, even if it happens, so what?

Gary S:
Raise your hand if you've ever felt like you're in that position, like the crucible you're in has no bottom. It has no end, that no matter what you try to do next, this has been going on so long, that to try to do anything more to overcome it to move beyond it, so what? Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, the co host of the show and the communication's director for Crucible Leadership. And on today's episode, Warwick, answers the so what question. Beyond that, he offers a roadmap for how all of us can proceed through a bottomless crucible as he calls it. Through what we've dubbed crucible fatigue, how do you get from point A to point B, when point A and half seems like it's gone on forever? You'll find that out on today's episode. And as Warwick says, it all begins with one step.

Warwick F:
Sometimes, we go through this crucible and it feels like it's a bottomless pit, it feels like the pit has no end, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. You can't even see a tunnel, you just see this whole sense of darkness. And at the moment, everybody really has had a tough 2020 or pretty much everybody. We've had the whole pandemic which seem to go on forever. Yes, we've heard recently that maybe there's a vaccine, that could take quite a while to get out and be widespread, the economy is uncertain, we've had a very tough election and that's divided many people, some happy, some are not happy. Our whole world feels in a lot of turmoil, a lot of division along a lot of lines, including racism and issues of systemic racism. It's been a very tough year for a lot, if not most people.

Warwick F:
So, in a sense you could say many of us are going through a collective crucible, but crucibles can also be very personal, whether it's 2020 or not, you might have got fired from your job or passed over for a promotion, maybe you have a loved one that's died recently or health challenge in the family. So whether it be because of large outside causes or something very personal, there is some days, some months, some years even in which we feel like we don't have hope. It just seems like there is no way out of the bottom, we just feel like this crucible is like a black hole, it's going to go on forever. And as we all know, once you get into a black hole, folks with physics majors know that once you get into a black hole, not even light can escape. So we feel like we're in this black hole of a crucible and there is no end.

Gary S:
If we've heard it once in 2020, we've heard it dozens, if not more than that times. People saying, "I'm just tired of this. I'm tired of filling the blank of the pandemic and the concern about health and the pandemic and the concern about the health of the economy and the restrictions." My wife and I were talking to my stepson last night and he was saying he had plans this summer to see his friends and do things and he hasn't been able to do that. And you don't realize that sometimes as you're dealing with your own fatigue, that everybody around you probably has a little bit of that fatigue too. And on any given day and any given year, that can be real. Those crucibles to use your excellent phrase can feel bottomless. But right now, it seems like a great percentage of us, a great concentration of us are feeling that. And in fact, just this morning, I was poking around on LinkedIn and there's a story, a new story on LinkedIn, about firms grappling with what they're calling pandemic burnout.

Gary S:
So we're calling this crucible fatigue, they're referring at LinkedIn to pandemic burnout. And I'm not going to read the whole story. But here's some interesting... As we go through this episode, I know the things that you're going to talk about Warwick, and they touch on some of these very things. As the pandemic stretches on through the fall, bosses say many of their remote employees are reporting depression and uncertainty over what's next. And many firms are taking actions to head off a surge of employee distress. That sounds like fatigue, doesn't it? But just a couple of the tips that they offer in this story on LinkedIn. One, and we'll talk about it in more detail in some different words, but as we move through this episode, encouraging staff to take time off or take self care days. That's one of the things that LinkedIn is talking about in terms of pandemic burnout, we'll talk about it in this episode about crucible fatigue. Also, fostering dialogue to share genuine emotions. That's one of the tips that you have that we'll unpack a little bit later on.

Gary S:
And then offering training or supervising to help people with expressing empathy to others. Again, that's one of the things we'll talk about it, you'll talk about it in a bit of a different way, but you will talk about it before our time is up today. So, I thought that was very interesting as we picked this idea out, we're not the only ones who are doing it, because here's LinkedIn talking about it just this morning.

Warwick F:
Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, for so many of us, we're just locked at home and I have three adult kids in their 20s and one is working remotely and seems to be okay and other my daughter came back from Australia where she was for a couple years. And she's doing a grad course and she should be in Chicago, where the grad course is, but it's all remote and she's an outgoing person, so it's just tough to be locked at home. And younger son had to do graduation from college I guess remotely, he wasn't able to go to it live. So, our lives are just so different. People are getting isolated, I'm sure. Depression and other issues more prevalent now, since people are locked at home. So, life is tough enough, but we've got this overlay. So it's a tough time for many people.

Gary S:
I always like to pull quotes, especially on these episodes when it's just the two of us. And you know, the listeners don't know that I'm a huge Green Bay Packers fan. But here's something that Vince Lombardi, the legendary coach of the Green Bay Packers said about fatigue, which is I think, a good jumping off point to begin some more detailed discussion of this subject of fatigue over crucibles. Vince Lombardi said, "Fatigue makes cowards of us all." We talked about this idea Warwick that I don't feel I have enough energy to get on, I just want to stay in bed and pull the covers over my head. And Vince was a little plain spoken, but the idea there really is, it can make us feel like we just want to give up, it can make us feel like we don't have what it takes to press through.

Warwick F:
We're kind of... Right. We often use this image in Crucible Leadership, we can feel like we're hiding under the covers and just not want to get up, just this sense of I'm done. I've had it, I'm checking out of life, just going to go through the next 20, 30, 40 years and that's it. All of us can have times in which we feel like that's it. When you're in the bottom of a crucible, it goes on forever. It is tough to get out of that thinking back to the black hole image, it's tough to get out of that thinking of, "I'm done, I'm worn out, I'm tired, I've had it." That's not an easy cycle to break when you're at the bottom of the crucible.

Gary S:
And listeners who've spent any time at all with us, know that you Warwick, are a great student of history, that you draw many of your leadership insights, practical tips from some of the greatest leaders in history. And history tells us that what we're talking about today, there are examples even in recent history, there are examples of folks who have gone through some really hard, bottomless feeling crucibles. Crucible fatigue and yet, as we like to say on Beyond the Crucible, your crucibles aren't the end of your story, they can be the beginning. In the cases that you've written about in the past, there are great examples of folks who indeed have done that. Who comes to mind as you think that over?

Warwick F:
Yeah, it is funny. We do talk a lot about folks in history be it Washington, Lincoln, Churchill, Roosevelt. But one that came to mind as we were thinking about this is somebody I wrote about a little while ago. Maybe a year ago, J.K. Rowling. Whose first name is Joanne, but publisher decided to go with J.K, since she wrote the best selling books, Harry Potter that was targeted at teenage boys, what have you and they thought J.K would be better for that audience. I don't think boys would really have cared, but publishers go figure.

Gary S:
It's the marketing and PR guys. It is the PR guys.

Warwick F:
Exactly. So, everybody's heard of J.K. Rowling and they've heard of her incredible success. She's sold more than 450 million copies of a seven book series, her eight films that she's done on Harry Potter, she's done other ones, but just on Harry Potter, they grossed over $7 billion worldwide with a B. She's had enormous success. So when you think of people who are that successful, it's hard to think that maybe they went through crucibles, maybe they went through a time in which there seemed to be no hope. And so, we forget about that, but J.K. Rowling, Joanne Rowling, she had that experience. She around 1992, was about two years after she came up with the whole idea of Harry Potter. And it was an unbelievably tough year, it was like her 2020, if you will, maybe multiplied by five or something. Her mother had just died after battling multiple sclerosis since Joanne was a teenager, she had had a difficult divorce from the first husband and she had a young daughter to support.

Warwick F:
So here she was in Edinburgh, Scotland, living in poverty on welfare, she had a young daughter to support by her own admission, she was diagnosed with depression, on the verge of suicide. Again, this is her perspective, life couldn't have been more difficult. What hope is there for a single mother in Edinburgh, in that situation? And apparently she had a difficult relationship with her dad. So, a lot of these support mechanisms, they weren't there, at least not from family.

Gary S:
And those are a lot of crucibles that can stack up pretty quickly.

Warwick F:
Yeah. She said that she was as poor as possible to be in modern Britain, she felt that she had failed on an epic scale. But it's interesting, she says that rock bottom became the foundation on which she rebuilt her life. And what's interesting is, she said a number of things, since about this about just her attitude. She said, failure was a stripping away of the nonessential, she said she was set free because her greatest fear had been realized and she's still alive and she had a daughter that she adored. Failure taught her things about herself that she couldn't have learned any other way. She said that later, but at the time, picture J.K Rowling. So, here she is, Joanne Rowling, she's in Edinburgh, she tended to write in the cafes in the town. And so what she would do is she'd have a stroller with her young daughter in it and as a lot of young mothers and young parents will know, she'd be wheeling her around the stroller, until eventually her daughter would fall asleep, which can take a while.

Warwick F:
The daughter would fall asleep, she'd head into the cafe and then start writing. Not on a typewriter, longhand on a pad of paper, and she's probably thinking, "Okay, how many pages can I get done before my daughter wakes up? Two, three, a chapter?" Okay, off we go, let's have another few walks around the block and then let's go to another cafe and maybe the same one. So that's what she did. Time after time until that book was finished. Then she went to a number of publishers, she went to 12 publishers, they all said no. The 13th said yes.

Gary S:
And let's back up so our listeners catch this moment. The book she's talking about, that she gave to 12 publishers, or a dozen publishers, was it some book you've never heard of? This was Harry Potter. This was... When people talk about the most successful books of all time, there's the Bible and then I think some of the Harry Potter books have fallen under that in terms of sales. So, this was something that was good that she poured herself into and yet it was rejected 12 times.

Warwick F:
Right, because nobody had ever heard of Joanne Rowling at the time. So who was she? And so most people will turn down books even seems good ones. But you could tell yourself, "Well, that's Joanne Rowling," but think she's a single mother, bad divorce, mother died, bad relationship with her dad and here she is in Edinburgh on welfare. There's not a whole lot of hope to be gained there. But somehow she was able to press on, somehow she didn't give up hope and just believed in the dream. She just believed in this book and she wouldn't give up. And we'll talk later about how that relates to some of the tips. But it's pretty of an amazing story.

Gary S:
It is. And let's walk listeners through exactly what that's like. If you're feeling right now listener like you're in a bottomless crucible, you're having crucible fatigue, be it the pandemic, the economy, personal things. Let's just unpack what J.K Rowling went through. Sends the manuscript off once, rejected, twice, rejected. Three times, rejected, four times, rejected, five times, rejected, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 times it was rejected. She could have given up at any one of those times. How many times does it take us... And this is a rhetorical question for all of us.

Gary S:
How many times does it take us to give up on a dream, on something three times, four times? What if J.K Rowling at the third time, the seventh time, the 10th time had given up? The world would have been deprived of what culturally is considered one of the great children's novel series from that movie series of all time. She pushed through. And because she pushed through, I would say in the language of crucible leadership, she's living a life of significance.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. Very true. She's living an incredible life and has a whole volunteer organization to support people, I think others that have gone through some of the experiences that she's had. So, yeah. She's had an incredible impact on the world. No question.

Gary S:
It was interesting Warwick, when you mentioned to me on the show here, when you mentioned the amount of money the books have sold. Because you actually use the phrase billion with a B. And one of the skills of a good co host is knowing how to segue and pick moments to segue. So, where the other time I've said a few times billion with a B, is your own personal story, your own personal crucible, Warwick, of your takeover of the family media company in the late 80s, the failure of that company slips family control after 150 years and at a loss of $2.25 billion. Big crucible. You've talked about that many times on the show, but one of the things that you haven't really talked about that I'd like you to share with listeners a little bit is, it took a while because it was the late 80s, early 90s when that fell through and it took some time. It took a few years for you to fight through the fatigue of what that crucible caused in your life. Is that true?

Warwick F:
It is. Yeah, as you mentioned, like most listeners would know I've been growing up in this large family media business in Australia, newspapers, TV stations, radio magazines, launch this $2.25 billion takeover to bring it back to the ideals of the founder, see the company is being well run. That all fell through almost from the beginning, we had an unsustainable level of debt. I felt like I've been put on this earth to spend my whole life in this media company and can do such a lot of good in the community. I thought this was the vision, maybe it wasn't my vision, but I felt like it was a good vision nonetheless. And then after 150 years and certainly in part due to me, the company goes or passes from family control, goes bankrupt and passes on to other people in late 1990. So here we are in the 1990s and I was not clinically depressed, but I was in a bad way. It's like, "Well, what is my purpose? Now, what do I do?" I wasn't poverty stricken like Joanne Rowling, I didn't have the same level of wealth, but certainly enough to be okay.

Warwick F:
But just emotionally and spiritually, I felt like I'd let my family down, God down in a sense that the company was founded by a person of faith and faith is important to me. I felt like I let my parents down. It was just a tough tough thing. And so, I've always been analytical. So I thought maybe I could get a job doing strategic analysis, marketing analysis, anything that's analytical. And I'd send out resumes to different places in first half of the 1990s and who wants to employ an out of work media mogul? Nobody. I could say, "Oh, I'm humble." And all went, "Oh, sure. Yeah, right." And so I was unemployable. It was just... It's hard to have a hope when you just think of all these rejections which I could understand. So eventually, sometimes desperation makes you take steps that you probably wouldn't otherwise. In Maryland, where we lived there was a temp agency that looks for temporary employment for accountants and financial analysts.

Warwick F:
I'm not an accountant, but I have done financial analysis after I went to Oxford and before I went to Harvard Business School, I worked in a bank on Wall Street and so I did financial analysis. And yeah, as an aside, I have a Harvard MBA, but that certainly didn't help me get a job at that point, again, former medium mogul. It's just didn't do anything for me. Not their fault, but the situation. So I went to this temp agency and said, "Well, I could do financial analysis." They said, "Well, we have this little program that will test your proficiency at Microsoft Excel." Well, I'd used that a lot in business school and in the bank, so I guess at the time-

Gary S:
You were pretty good.

Warwick F:
I'm talking about 1996, that was pretty good. They said, "Well, you got a really good score on Excel." Okay, great. So they found me a job at a sports company that had its US headquarters in Maryland, and needed some help with budgeting. So, I did that over a few months and I must have done a good enough job. They said, "Well, your employer said you did a great job helping out with budgeting analysis and all." Then they said, "Well, there is a temporary to permanent position at a local company in Annapolis, where I live." They said a large aviation services company. So I started off there doing financial analysis and after a few months, they offered me a full time job. Now, this is 1996 and at the time what they were offering me was a fair wage for the work that was being done, but I felt like I was probably the lowest paid, Harvard Business School graduate in history at the time. But yet, I was overjoyed. I had a job.

Warwick F:
It was something that I could do, certainly it wasn't my dream job, a Harvard MBA doing entry level financial analysis for an aviation services company. Nothing wrong with the industry, but it was a first step. And a little bit a little bit, I got more into business analysis, strategic analysis. From there some listeners will know, I took an executive coach who does mid career assessments, gave me an assessment as well. You have a great profile for executive coaching, got into that, got onto two nonprofit boards, including my church board. As I started doing that, people said, "Boy, you have a great perspective on leadership." I'm thinking, "What do you mean? I'm just asking questions." So, "Oh, do I have actually something to offer?"

Warwick F:
Because at the time, I would have been like, "I couldn't lead my way out of a paper bag. Me, lead? Look, what I did. Come on, I have nothing to offer." But a little bit by a little bit and then, the idea of the book came through a talk I gave in church, somehow what I said helped people and then Crucible Leadership. But where I am now, it's a tremendous place with a book that's going to be published next year, this podcast Beyond the Crucible, active on social media, have a whole website Crucible Leadership. But if you think back to all those years ago, when I'm at this temp agency and it's like, "Oh, you're good at Excel, maybe we can find something temporary for you." It seemed like a baby step, a micro baby step, 100th of a baby step. It didn't seem particularly a glorious step, but it was a step as we'll talk about later, that led to great things. But I had no idea at the time.

Gary S:
And before you went into that temp agency and had that conversation and found the temporary job, what was it like emotionally? We've talked about it many times that listeners probably have not had... Certainly have not had the same details of their crucibles as you have, or as I have. But the emotions are the same. And I assume at some point, in the midst of post takeover and going in and getting that temporary job, you probably experienced, did you not? Crucible fatigue.

Warwick F:
Yeah. It was hard to have a whole lot of energy to do anything super productive. Fortunately, I had young kids at the time and my wife is very loving and supportive, which was huge. I'm so blessed. But yeah, it was just you're trying to trot out resumes. This was just before the dawn of the internet in the early 90s, I felt like I couldn't just Google stuff at the time. I would send out resumes and nothing would happen. How do you get the energy and the get up and go to send out a resume when the chances of success are pretty much zero? Objectively speaking out of work, media mogul, Harvard MBA, Oxford, it's like there is no way. I was unemployable.

Warwick F:
So, there was zero reason for even a speck or a grain of hope objectively. And I knew that. And so you just keep... Fortunately, and this is a blessing. We weren't on the streets. We had not billions but had enough that we will be okay at least for a while. But yeah, it was hard to get motivation to do a whole lot professionally. Having young kids does distract you in a good way. But to feel like, "Oh, let's trot out another resume." Why? What's the point? It will fail. Which they did. So, yeah. It's just saps you of energy, fatigue, you feel bad about yourself and then you start thinking, "What an idiot the takeover? Why did I do it? So dumb, so stupid." And so the fatigue and not clinical depression, but depression can lead to self-incrimination like, "I'm in this spot, certainly, in significant part because of my own stupidity. So then the cycle of, "I can't get a job, I'm an idiot. I can't get a job, I'm an idiot." Yeah. It's worn out. It's hard to pick yourself up every day. It's tough.

Gary S:
And the good news for listeners who may find yourselves in the same place right now, your crucible has been going on for longer than you expected it would, certainly longer than you hoped it would. And maybe you're feeling tired, maybe you're feeling fatigued, maybe you're feeling what Warwick just described. What's the chance of success of this resume or of this effort to start my business up the way that I want to do it? What effort is going to pay off for me to continue to pursue my vision? Maybe I should just stop to use the J.K. Rowling example, maybe I should just stop at the 11th submission of the manuscript. But the good news is, as Warwick described for himself, as J.K. Rowling is testament to, there are ways to fight that fatigue, there are ways to light the engine to help you move past that fatigue, to dissipate that fatigue and move your life toward a life of significance.

Gary S:
And I know Warwick, you have a blog on this subject and you unpack several helpful tips. It really is the way I described it, as I'm thinking about it. It's a roadmap, if you will, of how to go from I want to lie in bed with the covers over my head to I'm chugging along pretty good toward a life of significance. Let's walk the listeners through that roadmap.

Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely. The first one is probably the most important. It's take one small step, even when life can feel overwhelming and there's no hope, just take that one small step. It could be apply for that next position, even when you think it's hopeless. Have that one more networking call. In J.K. Rowling's case, send out one more manuscript to one more publisher, whatever the positive step is, no matter how small each day, try to take one small step. It could be journaling about the kind of position you would like to get, but it's the importance of taking one small step at a time each day each week, that is probably the foundation of getting out of a bottomless pit. Even when that small step can seem like, well, even if it happens, so what? Okay, so I go to this temp agency and they think I'm good at Excel. Okay, that seems not super exciting, but okay. But that's the first thing, is take one small step, because those small steps can seem like a flywheel.

Gary S:
Yeah. And I'll give you an example of a small step I took. We haven't even talked about this beforehand. But it just came to mind when I was on my second journalism job. And I've mentioned on this show, I think once before that I was a reporter in a newspaper and I thought I was the star reporter, I got a lot of choice assignments and I began to believe my hype a little bit too much, I didn't try as hard as I could have tried. And the ultimate result of that was I got laid off. And that was in the 90s and it was not the easiest thing to do. Newspapers were still more robust than they are now, but I'm trying to think, "What am I going to do?" And again, before the internet, how do you find about jobs, how do you do this?

Gary S:
And I remember after a couple of weeks of just wanting to lay in bed and go sit by the pool and not do really much of anything, I decided my one step was going to be this. I was going to dress every morning like I was going to work and I was going to treat finding a job like having a job. That was my job, it was to find a job. So I got up, shaved, got dressed in my shirt and tie and coat and sat and worked trying to find a job. And just that one small step changed my perspective. Because my perspective was a guy who was unshaven for four days lying on his bed, feeling sorry for himself to a guy that at least looked like, felt like he was someone who was employable, someone who had a future and that one small step to your point, then led to another small step, another small step and I came up out of the bottomless pit. So, after the small step, after step one which is take one small step, what comes after that?

Warwick F:
Yeah. And that's a profound example just sort of an attitude change of just getting dressed in your work clothes so to speak. An attitude as well as an action can be so profound. So, I think one of the things that happens is there's a link between taking a small step and the vision, you may not know what your whole vision is, but as you begin to take some small steps and get some affirmation, you begin to see, "Well, maybe there's something that I can do." And the vision begins to grow. My case, when I got into financial analysis, I'm actually pretty good analytically. This is something that I can do. Huh. So, I'm getting some positive reinforcement, which encourages me. I get into executive coaching and I was told I had a leadership voice, just by the questions I asked. Gosh, for me, that's made so many bad mistakes, leadership mistakes, maybe there's something I can do.

Warwick F:
And I didn't think at the time and this is the important point, whether it was when I started coaching, or even further back at the temp agency, "Oh, I'm going to found Crucible Leadership, I'm going to have a book, I'm going to have a podcast." I wasn't thinking that, I was just thinking of something to reclaim at least a grain of my self esteem, something positive I could do. But the vision tends to grow. It's a bit like a flywheel. I think of Walt Disney, who I've talked about earlier, he just started off wanting to do animated cartoons with a story that was a bit more interesting than the typical ones in the 20's, early 30s. But from Mickey Mouse, ended up going to Snow White, going to Disneyland, Disney World and on. The genesis of the dream is all about, "Surely can't we do animated cartoons a bit better?" That was it.

Warwick F:
It wasn't this big, long term plan. I'm sure J.K. Rowling didn't think, "You know what? I really see a billion plus grossing movie series." This is what's going to happen. She is just like, "Look, I've got this story in my mind..." In her mind she had outlined the whole series of books. But she just wanted to get it published. If she had got enough income to support her daughter and have some modest living, she probably would have been happy. So there wasn't some big vision, but as you take one small step at a time and you get one small win at a time, back to your example, by dressing professionally made you think, "Okay, my attitude today is better than it was yesterday."

Gary S:
Absolutely.

Warwick F:
And you could say, "Well, that's not a win," because you didn't get a job, you didn't even get an interview yet. But that attitude change in itself, I'm sure if you viewed at the time, was a win, even be it a small win.

Gary S:
Yeah.

Warwick F:
Does that makes sense?

Gary S:
I couldn't envision The big Lebowski that I was lying. And it's funny it was before The Big Lebowski actually that I did this. But I couldn't imagine that guy that was sitting in a bathrobe and an unshaven face. I couldn't imagine him having a job. And I could imagine the guy in the mirror, sitting in front of his word processor, sending out resumes, clean shaven and tie on, I could imagine that guy getting a job. And you're right, that was a switch that flipped in my head that said, "Okay, I can take the next step."

Warwick F:
So, that was a key small win. And as we're doing this and it's easy to forget, we really need to celebrate each small step. Whether it's of course it's hard to go out these days to dinner, but back before, whether it's that or even just an attitude of celebration. I remember when that job at the aviation services company went from temp to permanent, it wasn't high paying, but I was overjoyed. I'm a Harvard MBA, Oxford graduate, why would I get excited about a very low paying, low level, entry level job? Because after what I've been through, it felt like a big step at the time. But it was a win, I was just over the moon, I was so happy. So don't take those small steps for granted, celebrate it because that gives you energy for the next small step. Small step by small step, it builds your vision, celebrate each small step and that will produce a flywheel of enthusiasm that will make leaping out of bed actually possible, rather than dragging yourself out.

Gary S:
And I love that at this point we're through three points, but truly, they're not really tips, they're connected points. They're connected steps along a map. This is a roadmap to getting through crucible fatigue. Take one small step, don't forget your vision, dial into your vision as you're taking that step after that step before you take the next step and then celebrate each small step as you go along. That's point three that you just made or step three that you just made.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. And I think, it's funny it's hard to learn or move or grow without moving. Movement is the key, which is why we started off with take one small step. But as you're moving, you're going to learn some things about yourself. You're going to learn about what you're good at, what you enjoy doing. You're going to learn like in my case, I'm analytical, I'm strategic. When I started coaching, I realized I love listening to people and helping other people. I found I had a leadership voice, that I had no idea that I had. When that led to me getting on two nonprofit boards, I'm a reserved person by nature, certainly at the time, somewhat shy, because I passionately believed in the missions of those two boards. I found I had a leadership voice, I was able to politely, but strongly express my opinion, which is not the kind of person that I thought of myself.

Warwick F:
I'm not a bomb thrower, I'd rather listen to other people than offer my opinion. So, it's like, "Wow, really, who knew I actually was able to express strong opinion constructively." So, the point here is as you go through these small steps, baby steps, as you're learning more about your vision, as you celebrate it, learn what you don't enjoy, but learn what you do enjoy and learn about yourself. About who you are, pay attention, reflect as you're moving, because there's a lot to learn through each of these steps. Why did that work? Why did I enjoy it? Talk about it to your wife or husband, friends, partner, just learn as you're going through these small steps.

Gary S:
And one of the things I love about learn through your crucible coming after, celebrate your each small step is that, as you learn, you can celebrate the things that you learn. Right?

Warwick F:
Absolutely.

Gary S:
They're up inside themselves, they can be self-contained. You celebrate the small step, you learn through your crucible, that's a small step. But then you can celebrate the things that you learn. What do you like? What do you not like? What are you good at? Maybe have you fooled yourself into thinking you're better at it? What brings your heart alive? Those are things that then you can celebrate as you learn more and more about yourself. And each one of these points that Warwick is talking about, is fuel that can be added to the engine of your life to help you move beyond that fatigue that you're feeling in what feels like a bottomless crucible. All right, on to step five.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. And so as you're making these small steps, your vision is growing, you're celebrating these steps, you're learning about yourself. One of the most important things is to cultivate an attitude of hope. There are optimists and pessimists in this world. And I get it, but a pessimistic attitude to life, you have to ask yourself, how does that serve me? How does it saying it will never work, I'm going to fail, there is no hope. I'm almost reminded of Winnie the Pooh, I think Eeyore the donkey, just came to mind. He's like, "Oh, it's hopeless, oh, it's never going to work." You don't want to be the Eeyore of your life so to speak. It's not going to serve you. It's your choice, but I would challenge you to think about, is this helpful? So, have an attitude of hope.

Warwick F:
So, when I got that first job in the aviation services company I was like, "Okay, this is not my dream job, but I'm analytical, maybe I can move up into something that benefits my skills." And whether it's coaching or a number of things I've done with the book, just each step, have an attitude of hope, have an attitude that tomorrow will be a better day. It may or may not, but have an attitude of hope, because that attitude of hope fuels movement, fuels progress, fuels success. An attitude of negativity and pessimism, what does that do? It fuels no growth, no steps. So, whether you feel like it or not, force yourself to have a hopeful attitude.

Gary S:
Yeah. And along those lines Warwick. One of the things that my wife and I have started to do in the midst of the what can feel like a bottomless crucible, the collective crucible, I believe he called it at the top of the show here. One of the things that we begun to do in the last month is every morning when we wake up, I went to the dollar store and bought like one dollars worth of five enormous things of slim ribbon. And every morning when we get up, we slice a bit of that ribbon off. And I've pulled an old vase from underneath in one of the cupboards and we put it up near where we have family photos in our bay window in the living room. And every morning we get up and together we take a little snip of that ribbon which is used to wrap gifts and we say out loud, thank you, today is a gift. And we drop that ribbon into that vase to remind ourselves that even in the midst of whatever crucibles we're facing, this is going to be relevant after the pandemic has passed.

Gary S:
But right now with the pandemic going on and some of the tensions going on in the culture, today, being alive today, having the opportunity to take a small step, having the opportunity to have hope, all of that is a gift. And that for us is a tangible way to tell ourselves when our eyes open first thing in the morning, today is a gift. And if we think about it in that way, that will breathe that attitude of hopefulness that you've just talked about.

Warwick F:
There's no question. In fact, there's a link between some of the last few... The last tip I have which really I hope leads into gratitude is it's easy to have an attitude of just complaining and being... I don't want to say ungrateful, but just what's the point, but being grateful for every small step. It's like, "Okay, thanks for the interview. Okay, I got that manuscript out to one more publisher." Well, at least maybe they said no, but maybe they gave some constructive feedback. Maybe there was something in there that was going to help you in the midst of the no. When I was going through those difficult years in the 90s, I was so blessed. I had a very supportive wife, not once not ever cut down on me, because she understood what I was going through. She was always supportive, never negative ever. I had young kids who I was daddy. They didn't know or care about what was happening in my professional life, which is a bit grim. So, being grateful for a loving wife and wonderful kids, we can always find a way to be grateful. People talk about having an attitude of gratitude.

Warwick F:
Maybe there are some who might say to themselves, "I have nothing to be grateful for." But I'd say the vast majority of people can think of something. I'm glad I'm alive, I'm so grateful for this because both hope and gratitude, they fuel energy, they fuel momentum and you want to turn that flywheel with these steps. You need to feed it. How do you feed it? With optimism, hope and gratitude. And really a final step that really links hope and gratitude or helps fuel them is, it really helps to have a cheerleading squad. You can surround yourself by negative naysayers like Gary, Warwick, we always knew you'd fail, it just makes sense you're in this position. Everybody knows you're hopeless. Well, that's a strategy, but I would say, don't talk to those people. Even if they're right to a degree, even the most nastiest negative person might have a grain of truth in it, which is why it typically hurts. If there was no truth in there, you wouldn't care. But surround yourself and hopefully it's a spouse, partner, kids, people that believe in you.

Warwick F:
Friends, we can all choose our friends. People that believe in you. You don't need people to tell you what to do. Well, that's good, but which can mean that was okay, but you're long way short. They keep moving the goalposts, that's not really a cheerleading squad, that's like, I'm never going to get the end zone because they keep moving the goalposts no matter how much I achieve, It's never good enough. That's not the right people. They may be well meaning, but you want people to celebrate each small win and say, "You know what, Gary, Warwick? That's awesome." You got an interview, or let's say it's Joanne Rowling.

Warwick F:
Joanne, maybe she's chatting to some of her friends at the cafe, her daughter has gone to sleep and she's taking a break from writing and they're saying, "Joanne, it's okay, I know that was the 10th rejection, but we believe in you, this thing will get published, keep going." For we know she had some friends that actually supported her. So, that is so valuable. Find those people that will support you, that will believe in you, that will help increase this attitude of hope. That will help foster the sense of gratitude in you. So, that's huge. It's another important step. Hope, gratitude and a cheerleading squad that help that flywheel. It's all about keeping that flywheel going. That is really the key. One small step at a time, get that flywheel going and then eventually, success will happen not maybe in the sense that you think about it or plan for it, but that is the way out of the black hole, out of the bottom of the mine shaft. Just keep going one small step at a time in a supportive environment.

Gary S:
As you talk about a cheerleading squad, one of the things that comes to mind for me and we hear it all the time and we've talked about it on the show before. Surround yourself with people who will tell you not what you want to hear but what you need to hear. But one of the things that makes those people valuable, is they know that sometimes what you need to hear is affirmation, sometimes what you need to hear is applause, is encouragement. Yeah, there may be times, there certainly are times, even in the midst of a bottomless crucible, in the midst of your crucible fatigue that you need to hear "hard truths." But the wise people, the good cheerleaders on your squad are going to be ones who will recognize the time to set that aside, the constructive criticism aside and just applaud you for those things that will help you move the next step that you have to take. The first step is important and the next step. Continuing to take the next step after that step, the 12th submission, the 13th submission of the Harry Potter manuscript. That's important.

Warwick F:
That's so true. If you were writing a job description of your cheerleading squad, one of the things you hear about people in the business world and giving feedback, they talk about the three to one ratio, three affirmations to one constructive criticism. And some people think they're helping you by just shovelling all over you in a massive pile, all of the things that you need to learn and do. And they all may be true, but you can't handle all of it at one time. And it's often not helpful. So, stress the affirmation, maybe ask a question rather than making a point. Is this the direction you want to go? Do you think this... How well does this fit with your gifts and skills? There's a way of rather than sledge hammering a person, gently guiding and nudging.

Gary S:
Correct.

Warwick F:
And ultimately, it's their life and you could be wrong anyway. So, don't think like you know everything. The odd word of wisdom is fine, but as you rightly say above all what they need is to move and they can't move without affirmation. Affirmation and support is like the oil that greases those clunky wheels, the flywheel that gets it really spinning. So, major on the affirmations, minor on the constructive criticism in small little doses.

Gary S:
Just as we don't need internal Eeyores, we don't need external Eeyores.

Warwick F:
That's true. What you don't need is a cheerleading squad that will say, "You know what? We knew you could never do it. We knew you'd always fail." That's like surrounding yourself with people that are tying ropes all over you and chains. You don't need to be chained down. So yes, those people should not qualify, they should not be hired for your cheerleading squad.

Gary S:
Absolutely. One of the things that I say at the end of every episode Warwick is, it's time to land the plane. So we're going to land the plane here in a bit. What as the captain of the plane, what are some parting thoughts you'd like to leave listeners with about this idea of fighting their way through what feel like bottomless crucibles, fatigue from crucible experiences?

Warwick F:
No matter how bad it feels, no matter how hopeless, how dark, how much of a black hole or deep mine shaft, the most important thing to ask yourself is this, what one small step can I take today? What one small step, no matter how small it is, can I take today? It all begins with a small step. All the other tips, the cheerleading, the hope, gratitude, vision, learning from your crucible experiences, learning about yourself, it all begins with what one small step. That is an attitude of the will, tell yourself I am going to take a small step today. I am going to do that. It all begins with one small step.

Gary S:
Well, I have been in the communications business long enough and I've used enough plane metaphors on this podcast to know the plane's landed and that's the last word that we should share for today from the mouth of both the founder of Crucible Leadership and the one who's lived through it. I usually often close the episode by running through some takeaways. And I'm just going to read through this list of takeaways from the blog that Warwick has written on this subject of how to fight through fatigue in a crucible context. So, usually I give one, two, three takeaways, here we're going to give seven takeaways. Step one is take one small step. Step two is, don't forget the vision. Step three, celebrate each small step. Step four, learn through your crucible. As you're going through your crucible, learn the lessons of your crucible. Really important. Five, cultivate an attitude of hope. Six, have a cheerleading squad. Seven, cultivate an attitude of gratitude.

Gary S:
Those sevens steps taken roughly in that order, but you may find as you're walking through it, there's a different order that works for you. But one of the things to remember as you're taking these steps, these aren't disconnected tips in the sense of try this here, try this here, try this here, maybe do this, skip that one. What Warwick's laid out for us here is really a roadmap, where each time your engine gets a little more fuel, the flywheel gets a little more energy and it pushes you through the fatigue that you're feeling about your crucibles. And the beautiful part of that is once you're past that fatigue, once that dissipates like black clouds being lifted, once you're through that, that's when you really begin to walk on that road to what we call a life of significance. On that subject, listen to one way that you can take a first step, the first step that you can take if you're unsure of what that first step might be is go to crucibleleadership.com and there we have a life of significance assessment.

Gary S:
You can answer very few questions, a few questions and you will be given tailored just for you, some results that will tell you as we've talked about this journey on the road to a life of significance. We'll show you where you are on that journey. We'll also give you some insight into your personality type as you're going through this. Where are you at personally? Are you an imagineer? Are you a world changer? What's the qualities of your personality where you're at on the journey? So you'll find out where you're at, you'll find out who you are, as you're at that point in the journey. And then most importantly, you will be given some tips, you will be given some takeaway tangible action steps you can take to continue the language we've been discussing here to continue powering yourself through the flywheel down the road to the life that you want to live. The life that you want to live that's on purpose and dedicated to helping others. So until the next time that we're together, thank you so much for spending this time with us.

Gary S:
Thank you for trusting us with your crucibles, for turning to us and to Warwick's insight and experience and aptitude to help you along the way of what the next step will be. And remember, as you take that first step, which then will lead to the second step, which then will lead to the third step. And if you're like J.K. Rowling, it could lead to a 13th step. That's good. Remember, as you go through that, that the crucible that you're in right now, even though it may feel bottomless, even though it may feel like you're fatigued by it, remember that that crucible, no matter how long it's been going on and how tiring it's been, is not the end of your story. That crucible can be the beginning of your story. And it can be a great beginning of your story. Because once you learn the lessons as you continue down that road, that road that you're on leads to something that you can't put a dollar figure on, that will bring you the most fulfillment that you can find. And that is your destination will be a life of significance.

1. Don’t assume the “other side” or the “other people” are evil —even when you believe they are wrong.

2. Try to understand the other side.

3. Listen, really listen.

4. Don’t impugn other people’s motives – and always listen to make sure you attempt to understand those motives.

5. Seek first to understand.

6. Unity creates opportunity.

Reflection

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