Bringing a vision to reality is not easy. You might have a vision for a new business you want to start. You might want to take your department at your company to the next level. Or you might have a nonprofit you want to start that you just know will help people that so need to be helped. But once you have such a vision, what do you do with it? Getting a team on board with your vision is not easy. How can anyone fully grasp the vision you have? How can anyone be as passionate about it as you are? And therefore, how can anyone do as good a job as you would in making it a reality?
But the paradox is that without a team, typically our vision wonβt happen. It will be dead on arrival β if it actually arrives. If we want our vision to become reality, in most cases we have to have a team by our side to make that vision a reality. So how do assemble a good team? If we are honest with ourselves we often have a lot of internal resistance to bringing on a team. We will have to overcome the following preconceptions we may well have in building that team:
A team wonβt get the vision
Everything is going to takeΒ soΒ long; implementation by committee is a nightmare
Inevitably there will be division and conflict which, of course, will make things take even longer
How do we move beyond these mental and practical blockages? Here are some tips to assembling a good team and alleviating at least some of the above challenges.
1) Change your attitude.
Your vision almost certainly will not become reality without help. That means you need a team. And yes, it might seem like things will take longer as you discuss steps and initiatives with your team. But remember, you want your vision to happen, so time spent hiring the right team and making sure that your team is on the same page is time well spent. Your desire for your vision to come to fruition should fuel your patience.
2) Hire for character, attitude and alignment to the vision.
In typical hiring practices, we look for those most skilled and qualified for the job. Do they have great experience at great organizations? Do they have good grades from great schools? While this is not wrong, qualifications and experience, while important, are not the most important hiring criteria. Character, attitude and alignment to the vision are. You can train for skills β at least to a large degree β but it is much harder to train for character, attitude and alignment to the vision. You want people who are driven, yet humble (Level 5 leaders, as Jim Collins calls them in Good to Great). They put the team first, before their own success. They donβt always have to be right. They truly want to listen to others. They are curious and love to learn. They are reliable. They get done what they say they will get done. They are also 100 percent committed to the vision. When you find people like this, do not let them go!
3) You want a team with a diverse set of skills.
In particular, you want a team with a different and a complementary set of skills to yours. If you are a founder or a visionary, you will often be driven and passionate about your vision. You may well be entrepreneurial and impatient to get moving immediately, and may not want to take too long thinking things through. βWhat we need is action and action now!β is one of your favorite phrases. Fair enough. But you might want to surround yourself with some thoughtful and reliable implementers who will think things through step by step. Depending on your organization, you may well need engineers, manufacturing and operations people, research and development, marketing and sales, financial people. A diverse range of skills. In a smaller start-up business or non-profit, you might just have two or three people on your team. Figure out what key skills are needed to compliment your own, even if the personality of those types of people really annoy you. You might find engineers frustrating because it seems like all they say is that your dream is not practical. The financial folks might say that what you are trying to sell is too costly. The sales and marketing people might say that there is no market for your product. But the collective wisdom of a diverse team is powerful.
4) You need to be the chief evangelist for your vision.
Your primary job as the founder and visionary, is to get your team on board. You do that in two ways. First you talk about your vision often, at all times and in many ways. Second, you ask your team what the vision means to them and to their department. What does the vision look like in engineering, manufacturing, finance, and marketing and sales? Then ask them, how the vision could be improved. Yes this is risky, but if the vision is improved, why turn away a good idea?
5) You need to be patient.
By this stage, you have hopefully hired the right team; character, attitude, and alignment to the vision first, skills second. You have a team with a diverse set of skills that are complementary to your own skills. You have also continually communicated your vision to your team and asked them for input into the vision. Once you have done all this, you need to be patient. You need to honor the process. You need to wait. Yes, βwait,β that dreaded word. Trust your team! Yes, that means honoring the process, allowing your team to have input each step of the way, listening to push back, working it through, getting resolution. It all takes time. A lot of time sometimes. But it is worth it.
Being patient, hiring the right team with character, attitude and who are aligned to the vision, with a diverse set of skills, takes time. It also takes time continually reminding your team of the vision and continually listening for input. Why bother with all of this? Because your vision is important. The world needs your vision. So you need to be patient, hire the right people, honor the process, including listening to your teamβs input. If your vision is too important to fail, it is too important for you to be impatient.
Reflection
Think about your attitude. If you are a go-it-alone impatient visionary, what is the first step you need to take in changing your attitude?
What are the critical character and attitude qualities you need for your business or non-profit to succeed; and how will you ensure that your hiring practices are changed to include these qualities as well as ensuring that new hires are aligned to the vision?
What processes and mechanisms will you put in place to ensure that your great and committed team is heard and has buy in, so that your vision truly does become reality?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
What do you do as a thought leader when crucible experiences force you to face that youβre a βpractice strugglerβ? Thatβs the situation Kaley Klemp faced when she and her husband, Nate, hit a patch in their marriage so rocky they wondered if it might be the end. But they fought their way back by changing their mindsets from seeking fairness from each other to showing radical generosity to each other. In the process, they applied some of the very team-building skills each had learned in their careers to bolstering their relationship β a journey they capture in their new book, THE 80-80 MARRIAGE: A New Model for a Happier, Stronger Relationship. Kaley explains in this interview with Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax that strong marriages, like strong leaders, need ample doses of vulnerability and authenticity.
To learn more about Kaley Klemp and The 80-80 Marriage, visitΒ www.kaleyklemp.com
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. Iβm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Kaley K:
My husband and I tangled our handlebars on a bike ride and, as we fell, he fell harder and also hit his head. And so there was this dual experience of traumatic brain injuries and not having a community. I was not near family where β¦ And I didnβt have many people. I was brand new. There wasnβt even a friend network to go to. And so, in that space, my husband and I ended up, we just hooked each otherβs negative thinking patterns and instead of moving closer together in that crucible, there was a moment where we really started to move apart. And there was a conversation where both of us said to each other, βYou arenβt the person that I married. Iβm not sure whatβs happening here, but this isnβt going to work.β So there was very much a moment where we werenβt sure we were going to make it as a couple.
Gary S:
For a married couple, crucibles donβt get much more serious than that. In the midst of an already difficult time, confronting the thought that the love you vowed would last forever might not even last a few more months; yet, that is exactly where todayβs guest, Kaley Klemp, found herself a few years ago.
Gary S:
Hi, Iβm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. On todayβs episode, Warwick talks to Kaley about how her relationship with her husband, Nate, got to such a perilous crossroads and how the two of them were able to pull it back from the precipice. The key, youβll hear, was in changing their paradigm from marriage being about βfairnessβ to making it about radical generosity. Itβs impossible, Kaley argues, for any relationship, particularly a lifelong romantic one, to be 50/50. Thatβs why the Klemps wrote, The 80/80 Marriage, which makes the compelling case that both spouses have to be committed to giving more than they expect to receive to make wedded bliss a reality. And hereβs the bonus for professionals like the Klemps and many of you, our listeners: The principal she discusses are wise practices for the boardroom as well as the living room.
Warwick F:
Iβd love to hear a little about Kaley and maybe where you grew up and your family, just a bit about kind of the background of who is Kaley Warner Klemp and what makes you, so to speak.
Kaley K:
I love that question. Well, thank you, Gary. Thank you, Warwick. Iβm so delighted to be here. So I grew up in Boulder, Colorado, which happens to be where I live now. And little girl, one of the things that I think is kind of neat about my past is that my parents decided when I was in kindergarten that I would be in the bilingual class in my elementary school. And so Iβm not sure if you know much about Boulder, Colorado. It is not well-known for its diversity, and yet, I got to be in classrooms in kindergarten through sixth grade where for that entire period of time, I think I was the only girl in my class who spoke English at home. And itβs a neat place to start to develop perspective and empathy. And I have to think that some of that fueled my desire to understand people even more that shows up in my life today. Iβm the oldest of three kids. We got a brother and a sister. My folks are still right here in Boulder. Iβm really lucky that my family is awesome.
Warwick F:
Well, I think you would tell me earlier that Nateβs parents are also from Boulder and I think you said what? All your families is pretty much within 45 minutes or at least your parents and Nateβs parents. You have a daughter. I mean, thatβsβ¦ Iβm assuming you probably get on reasonably well with them all. I mean, it could be a blessing or not.
Kaley K:
Thankfully, we donβt live under one roof. I think that would be too close. But I know, itβs been Warwick such a gift that if I think about it through the lens of my nine year old, it really is a village thatβs helping to raise her. Today, actually, she is with my parents up skiing in the mountains. So thereβs something really magical aboutβ¦ I think my in-laws are phenomenal. Iβm one of the just luckiest people in the world that all of the mother-in-law stories donβt apply for me. Sheβs actually wonderful. And I didnβt grow up near my grandparents. My parents were both from Michigan and my grandparents, when I was little, I was in Colorado, and they were in Michigan and Florida. And seeing my daughterβs closeness with her grandparents, I wouldnβt trade lives with anybody except maybe her.
Warwick F:
Well, That is so neat. My parents are no longer living, but they were in Australia, and Iβve lived here since the early β90s. And my wifeβs parents were from Ohio, so we saw them and then spent part of the year in Florida. So we saw them quite a lot. But I think people donβt appreciate it. A little bit off track here, but life in Australia is very different than here, because Australiaβs the same size geographically as the United States, but thereβs not that many people, not a whole lot in the middle. So if you are from Sydney which I am, pretty much all your friends, theyβll go to universityβ¦ Sydney University, University of South Wales.
Warwick F:
I have an older sister that has four daughters and they all live pretty near. Now if youβre more than 20 minutes, youβre like, βOh, my gosh. The other side of the Harbour Bridge.β Youβre like, βForever.β So I didnβt realize in Australia, being near familyβs not that uncommon, because if youβre from Sydney, why would go somewhere else? Nothing against Melbourne, but you just get used to Sydney. In America, itβs very different. People are everywhere, like obviously your experience in Michigan.
Warwick F:
So it sounds like you had pretty good upbringing and I think I saw some of the TEDx talk when youβre a little girl and the whole peanut butter and jelly shoelace thing. Thatβs so, so neat. I guess some maybe some perfectionist tendency I think is probably the story. But there was a good point there. It was a fun image and fun story.
Kaley K:
I appreciate you watching. Yeah, indeed, I was⦠Some perfectionist tendencies for sure and a bit of a precocious little girl to scold my mother on her sandwich making skills.
Warwick F:
So before we get into 80/80 marriage, what lead you on the path that youβre on, because you just have a passion for leadership and helping leaders think maybe more holistically from everything from values inventory to Enneagram mindset? Was it something about your upbringing or family? What led you on the journey that youβre on? Whatβs the origin story, if you will, of why you do what you do?
Kaley K:
Yeah. Thatβs a great question as well. So I can actually trace it to a moment. So my dad, when I was growing up, he was an entrepreneur and ran a software company once upon a time when computers took up entire rooms rather than in our pockets. He laughs now about it, like, βI remember having to program in the middle of the night, because it was the only time it was cool enough or the computer would overheat.β
Warwick F:
Oh, jeez.
Kaley K:
So totally different world. But he was part of an organization called YPO or Young Presidents Organization. And when he sold his company, he was asked to come facilitate some events. And in 1999, he asked meβ¦ I was in universityβ¦ so he said, βHey, do you want to come see what Iβm up to? Do you want to come participate in this event that I facilitating?β I said, βSure.β How interesting could it be?
Kaley K:
So I went to the event and that was the moment in 1999 where I absolutely fell in love with this tool set and knew that I wanted to be committed to it. And really specifically what it was that through that experience, I saw people see themselves more clearly, see some of the patterns and the choices that they have been making in their lives more clearly and that facilitated a path for them to actually make different choices and to do things differently in their lives going forward. So as you saw in my TED talk, I donβt think that should get us very far, but I actually think deep self-understanding and making choices can. And seeing that happen for person after person, I was hooked. It was like, βOkay. I want to do that.β
Warwick F:
Hmm. So thereβs something about just helping people understand who they are. I think people intellectually realize that thatβs important, but somehow that particular vision resonated very deeply. Because somebody could have said, βOh, thatβs neat. But okay, thatβs important.β But why did you feel like that was for you? Why did that tug at your heartstrings or why that piece of music, if you will, really feel like, βThis really fits who I am and what I believe in.β
Kaley K:
Gosh. Thatβs an excellent question. I think it was mostly about having peopleβ¦ To your point, it was that they saw themselves more clearly, but I think they also were able then to see the ways that they were creatingβ¦ Iβm going to call it suffering. And there are different flavors of thatβ¦ certainly very acute, dramatic and also more subtle, almost like a rock in your shoe kind of suffering. But in seeing that, they could realize what some of the things we have been doing were costing them, and that to meβ¦ I think what tugged at my heartstring was recognizing, βThis was a way that I could participate in people making their own lives better.β
Kaley K:
And then I think aboutβ¦ and gosh, again, this goes back to COVID where thereβs so much about contagiousnessβ¦ the idea of if I can help people be contagious for good in their own lives and in the companies that theyβre leading, in the teams that theyβre on, in the families that theyβre members of, that I think really pulled at my heart.
Warwick F:
Right. Because I think, probably a bit like you, good leadership can make such a difference. I have three kids. Theyβre in their 20s. And Iβve done my fair share of helping them prep for interviews and somewhat good at that, got a lot of practice, and throw out all these questions, βWhy do you want this job?β And βWhat about you really fits here,? and βWhat are your strengths?β And then the awful question is βWhat are your weaknesses?β How do you answer that and still be positive, but yet be honest?
Kaley K:
Exactly. And have it not feel like the person on the other side is like, βThatβs not a real weakness. Thanks for trying.β
Warwick F:
Yeah. Like when I applied to Harvard Business School, you donβt want to write, βWell, Iβm a bit of a workaholic, and Iβm so dedicated to studying that all my other life goes by the wayside.β Itβs just so trite. But what I tell them is, βAssume that most bosses youβll work for wonβt be good.β They might be really good, but itβs not like 90% of bosses are clued in, empathetic, strong leaders, but yet listen. Itβs just, donβt assume thatβs normal, because itβs just not. Itβs typically if you have an issue in performance, the time you find out is when the pink slip happens and youβre fired and itβs like, βWell, I just donβt like giving negative feedback and it just makes me feel uncomfortable. So I feel better if I just ask you to leave that way we donβtβ¦ Itβs easier for me.β
Kaley K:
Itβs so funny. I was-
Warwick F:
And thatβs normal.
Kaley K:
β¦ actually having this conversation this morning with somebody who runs people and talent. And the conversation that we were in is the imperative of early and direct feedback for exactly the reason that youβre saying that if you give constructive feedback early, then people know what to work on, they know where they stand, thereβs clear expectations and there arenβt surprises later on. For the piece that we were talking about, thatβs really interesting that I think youβre alluding to is the hidden cost of trust when there isnβt that conversation. Because then people who they think theyβre doing well, because they also arenβt receiving feedback, start to have that worry in the back of their minds, βIs that pink slip coming for me?β And so, thereβs a distrust of absence of feedback or too much positive feedback, if there isnβt the balance of constructive feedback.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So obviously in the family business I grew up in, which listeners will know, was a large, 150-year-old family media business. There were times, especially when it was it founded, where it was run very well. John Farifax, my great-great-grandfather, he wasβ¦ Everything heβ¦ It would have beenβ¦ I donβt if he did the 80/80 marriage, but he had a wonderful marriage, great relationship with his kids, an elder at his church, his employees loved him and he grew a very successful business. Itβs really everything was in balance. But there were days in more recent past when it wasnβt really so well run.
Warwick F:
But I can think of one episode that really illustrates, perhaps, good leadership, some of the things you probably advocate, is years ago, before I went to Oxford, I had an internship at J. Walter Thompson, which was a big advertising agency back in the day, about four or five ad agency mergers ago. And there was a guy out from Canada who was running the Australian operation, and he made a point at these all hands meeting appraising people. It so happened that that local agency had the local Kelloggβs account.
Warwick F:
And so he said, βIβve been chatting to the J. Walter Thompson folks back in the U.S. and North America and they said that the work that youβve done here on Kelloggs has created some of the best work that Kellogg has seen worldwide at J. Walter Thompson.β He said that to the team, and I thought, βBoy, thatβs good leadership. Heβs praising them specifically in amidst their peers who also worked there.β So that sounds like a normal thing to do, but thatβs not normal, that kind of specific praise. One of the things I say, one of my little adages is, βWhen it comes to praise, if you see something, say somethingβ¦
Kaley K:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
β¦ and be specific and encourage.β Itβs one of my highest values. But anyway, thatβs a whole other discussion.
Kaley K:
I think that the specificity is one of the things that so often also gets lost. The generic email that says, βHey, team, good job.β It means a little something, but very quickly finds its way to the delete folder; whereas, the specificity of the recognition, who said it, to whom, I think to your point has it stick and feel really more significant and true.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. So before we get to 80/80 marriage, I know, speaking of origin stories, from what I understand, there was a bit of an origin story, 2007 was not a good year. I know Iβm reminded of Queen Elizabeth who she had a year she called her annus horribilis, a horrible year, in which Windsor Castle almost burnt down and it was pretty tough year for her. Pretty remarkable woman. What is she, like 95, and still riding horses? Itβs unbelievable. I think her husbandβs like 97, and I think theyβre trying to discourage him from driving as much as before, because heβs had of couple accidents. But look, we all would have over 95. So talk about 2007 and why that was such a tough year and how that was part of the back story of where 80/80 marriage and the book came from.
Kaley K:
Yeah. Itβs a hard story in some respects, because, as you were saying, Gary, when we started the show, itβs not necessarily fun to go back and relive. We refer to them as the dark years. So the backstory of 2007 is thatβ¦ So Iβm originally from Colorado. I went to school in California, more of a West Coast mountain past, and moved out to New Jersey to be with my brand-new husband. And people would ask, βOh, youβre newlyweds. Howβs the extended honeymoon?β And that was not our experience. The way it happened was my younger sister, about to turn 20, was a student at Boston and was a pedestrian hit by a drunk driver. And so, she was in the hospital. She was in a coma. Experienced quite a number of physical injuries. Spent some time in a wheelchair. Traumatic brain injury. And that was the beginning of this year of our marriage.
Kaley K:
Right on the heels of that, literally weeks later, my husband and I tangled our handlebars on a bike ride and as we fell, he fell harder and also hit his head. And so, there was this dual experience of traumatic brain injuries and not having a community. I was not near family, whereβ¦ And I didnβt have many people. I was brand new. There wasnβt even a friend network to go to. And so, in that space, my husband and I ended up, we just hooked each otherβs negative thinking patterns and instead of moving closer together in that crucible, there was a moment where we really started to move apart. And there was a conversation where both of us said to each other, βYou arenβt the person that I married. Iβm not sure whatβs happening here, but this isnβt going to work.β So there was very much a moment where we werenβt sure we were going to make it as a couple.
Kaley K:
And so, as I fast forward to two springs ago, out on a hikeβ¦ which now we do date nights also, but really most committed date hikesβ¦ there was that backdrop and looking back and wondering. Really the catalyst of this book, The 80/80 Marriage, is about the context of modern marriage and looking at, βHey, now against this backdrop where weβre with our partners, we want things to be fair. We treat each other as equals. And oh my goodness, the list of things that we are trying to accomplish in a day, a week, a month, really is quite extensive. How do you do that and stay connected and in love?β
Kaley K:
We often would refer back to 2007 and say, βWhat do we wish we had known then? How do we wish we had been able to establish our mindset? Gosh, if we could go give advice to ourselves back in 2007β¦ who knows how stubborn we would have been and whether or not we would have taken good adviceβ¦ but weβre do we wish we had laid a different foundation?β And now, when I work with leaders and with couples and based on the hundred interviews that we did with couples to say, βWhat are the tools and what are the practices that help those really work?β
Gary S:
Can I go back to 2007? Because I want to get one little slice of emotion from you in that you and your husband at that time professionally were making it work. You were in a professional context working with leaders. You were thought leaders. And you came to a point where you realized, I thinkβ¦ you tell me if this is what happenedβ¦ but you were thought leaders who realized that maybe you were practice strugglers. What did that feel like? As your advising people, βHereβs the proper way to navigate work relationships,β youβre having trouble navigating your marriage relationship. What kind of dissonance did that cause for you emotionally?
Kaley K:
Thatβs a great question, Gary. If I were going to look back and analyze what I was doing at that point in time, I was using work as a way to escape from how hard things were in my personal life. And so, in some ways, I think I was able to compartmentalize and say, βHey, professional relationships are different from intimate relationships.β And out of one side of my mouth, I think I might still say thatβs true. But I think they are actually much more closely connected than I would have given them credit for. I think the dissonance, to your point, was happening from the perspective of saying, βI canβt do thisβ and the facing into the struggle and the sadness and then not having the cover story ofβ¦ I donβt know about you, itβs easier said on a podcast or on a Zoom or give a talk and hereβs the shiniest, most palatable version of myself to then trying to turn off the camera and really cry quite hard.
Warwick F:
Itβs interesting that you were both successful, obviously. Youβve got a whole consulting, coaching career. You mentioned husband. Is he an academic, consultant? Heβs pretty successful in his own right.
Kaley K:
Yeah. Yeah. At that point in time, he was getting his PhD. So we bothβ¦ We met at Boulder High, which I think is such a cute part of our story. We were chemistry lab partners. I will save you all of the puns. And then, both went off to Stanford, and then I stayed in California when he went to New Jersey. So he was getting his PhD at Princeton. But to your point, winning teaching awards, publishing his dissertation, doing research, to then be a professor at Pepperdine where many, many students were looking up to him in the same way that leaders would look to me. And so, there is a moment, too, of, βAre we taking our own advice and what advice do we have to take?β
Warwick F:
Well, it is interesting. The old joke when you may be chatting toβ¦ I donβt knowβ¦ some support folks. For instance, if you have an Apple computer and you have an issue, the support teams are so incredible. Theyβre so helpful. But you wonder if they get off the phoneβ¦ You could be talking to them for an hour about something so stupidly simple and says, βThatβs okay. No, thatβs fine. I can help you with the next step.β And they get off the phone with their significant other and probably zero patience and maybe start yelling and itβs like, βOkay. So you seem to be so good professionally, so calm, so patient. And then when it comes to family, where is that person? Where did they go? Is it captured by aliens? What is the deal here?β Itβs probably something that you find that not only other people, but did you find that you and your husband professionally how you dealt with people was very different than how you dealt internally?
Kaley K:
Gosh. Iβm thinking about my nine-year-old daughter who she will come home from school and she would have a fit or be upset or no manners. Iβm like, βI donβt understand. Your teacher says youβre so good.β She said to me once, βMom, I used up all my good behavior at school.β And so I think-
Warwick F:
Sounds like you can identify with that a bit, huh?
Kaley K:
I guess. And so thatβs the story that Iβm thinking about where I think there can be a moment where itβs βI used up all my patienceβ or βI used up all my good behaviorβ or βI used up all my good questions. And I think thereβs a bit ofβ¦ Iβm going to call a reprioritization where in recognizingβ¦ And I think about this a lot in present day is, βWho are my most important relationships and am I treating them as suchβ or βAm I using up all my good behavior with strangers and giving my most precious relationshipsβ¦ my husband, my daughter, my family, my dearest friendsβ¦ the dregs?β And if thatβs the case, βHow can I adjust where Iβm spending my time and energy so that Iβm nurturing those that I would say are most important?β
Warwick F:
Itβs funny how often we devote so much time to professional lives. Obviously, you want to look and act professional, be understanding, because if you donβt, itβs not good for your career. Nobody wants to work with somebody thatβs just rants, raves, impatient. Itβs not a good way to get promoted or to get business. So, thatβs an obvious, itβs going to hurt my career, paycheck. I canβt do that. At home, itβs not the same. But I know you do a lot of things like 360-degree feedbacks, Enneagram, values inventory. Do you ever laughingly say, βI wonder if I did a personal values inventory about whatβs important to me?β
Warwick F:
I donβt do as much executive coaching withβ¦ Iβve got a book coming out next year and do a bunch of other things. But one of the things that I would sometimes ask clients, βTell me about your values and then to what degree do you think that youβre living your values?β Then I would say with a straight faceβ¦ if they say, βWell, Iβm not really living thatβ¦β βOkay. Would you prefer to change your values or change what youβre doing?β And I would say it with a straight face, because as a coach, itβs the clientβs choice. If they want to change their values, who am I to judge somebody else, some other human being? I actually, as a coach, really believe not judging other peopleβs paths. Everybody has their own journey. Well, 99.9% of sane people arenβt going to say, βIβm going to change my values.β Okay. Well, thenβ¦ Just so many people that are going so fast, theyβre not thinking, βI actually may not be living my values.β So if you probably rated values, Iβm guessing family wouldnβt be, I donβt know, value number 80, Iβm guessing.
Kaley K:
Right. Right. Exactly.
Warwick F:
Itβs probably up there somewhere. So if you did a values inventory and then compared how much is Kaley living some of thoseβ¦ Iβm not picking on you. All of us would be in there. Youβd be like, βHmm. I teach this stuff. I have a values inventory. Hundreds if not thousands of gone through it.β And then, βOkay. Hmm.β You probably had that moment.
Kaley K:
Oh, my goodness. For sure. And I think you pointed to it. Thereβs the cobbler whose children have no shoes. In doing the work with and for other people, there can be a forgetfulness around doing the work for yourself. And in some ways, this is a really beautiful bridge to 80/80 that we start with the mindset of radical generosity. So instead of 50/50 fairness to stretch to 80/80, to radical generosity.
Kaley K:
But what youβre describing is one of the foundational principles of shared success. And first is really, βDo you know your own values?β And then, βHave you had the conversation with your partner to ensure that those values align.β So to your point, we actually now have a chalkboard in our kitchen. Weβre that family. We put our values. And weβll have conversations often on our hikes where weβll ask, βHey. Are we living in alignment with these? Are we choosing love or are we choosing something else? Are we choosing impact or are we choosing something else? And if weβre choosing something else, to your point, is there a different value that now is superseding the ones we have or is there an adjustment that needs to take place in our lives?β
Kaley K:
And what Iβve found and what weβve found is that knowing those values lets you set clearer priorities and that installs your boundaries where you can say yes and no to things with a much clearer conscience, because itβs rooted inβ¦ Love is a value of ours. That quality of relationship which shows up with my job or with my husband, with my family, thatβs important. And if Iβm not living that, gosh, I need to make different choices.
Warwick F:
I think what youβre saying is so important, and I think it was Socrates who said something like, βUnexamined life is not worth living.β Well, youβve got to know yourself, but youβve also got to know your partner, the person that, in your case, married to and what you collectively think is important. And so many people, theyβre so busy with to-do lists and if you have young kids, βI got to take my kid to soccer, ballet, whatever it is.β And itβs whoβs doing what and where and βI got to work late.β Itβs you have conversations on to-do lists, rather than who are we, what are we about?
Warwick F:
So talk about this, because Iβm fascinated with everybody talks about fairness, 50/50, how do you split things up? And so this whole idea of radical generosityβ¦ So talk about the old paradigm and the new paradigm. Whatβs the difference between the typical, βItβs all got to be 50/50. Split it down the middle,β which itβs hard to argue against fairness. It doesnβt sound like such a terrible concept. But talk about how what youβre advocating is radically different.
Kaley K:
Yeah. Well so, if fairness worked, I would say we should keep it. The trouble is that it doesnβt actually work, and it takes me to introduce, there was this brilliant story where a couple was talking about their relationship with their parents and they were saying, βSo we did Fatherβs Day with your family, and so weβre going to do Motherβs Day with my family. Well, for your family, we left on Friday and came back on Sunday, so for my family, we should leave on Friday and come back on Sunday.β And it was hilarious, because what they were talking about, when they actually unpacked it, both of them said, βNeither of us wants to go for the same duration. We only want to go Saturday for lunch.β And yet because we had to make it fair, there was all sorts of kind of horse trading around things that they didnβt actually even want.
Kaley K:
So one way it doesnβt work is because you end up advocating for things that you donβt really even desire. And the second reason it doesnβt work is itβs actually a psychological principle, which is called availability bias. Iβm not sure if youβre familiar with it. But the idea is I know everything that I do in service of our relationship. So I know every soccer practice that I drop off at. I know every thank you card that I write. And I also know every invisible hour that I spend thinking about Thanksgiving dinner and whoβs gluten-free and what we should serve and how to arrange it so that itβs COVID safe, et cetera, et cetera. My partner doesnβt know most of those things, and I donβt know most of the things that theyβre up to. Some things I can see where I watch him drive the trash cans down the driveway to have the trash go out, but I miss, βHey, did he have to have a conversation to fix something that happened in our finances or whoβs waiting for the cable guy?β Thereβs so much thatβs invisible that fairness ends up being where I completely overestimate the things that Iβm doing and underestimate the things that youβre doing. So we can never even get to an accurate picture to strive for fairness.
Warwick F:
Boy, that is so well-said. And some of it, too, thereβll be things that each person is good at and not good at. In my case, I married an American girl, who I met in Australia. Weβve been married actually a little over 30 years and very blessed. And sheβs very creative. Sheβs an interior designer by profession, and sheβs justβ¦ We have a wonderful home. Sheβs incredible cook. Iβm not. So if we did 50/50 fairness about cooking, the family would suffer. That wouldnβt be soβ¦ Now, obviously, happy to wash dishes and all that and take lead on that. My kids are in their 20s, so theyβre obviously at an age where they actually can help with that. But sheβs creative, so she really doesnβt like numbers. Thatβs not right or wrong. Itβs how sheβs wired. So sheβs happy for me to do the finances and because Iβm from Australia, it can be a little bit complicated between Australian stuff and U.S. stuff and it gets a tad complex.
Warwick F:
But when it comes to major decisions, whoeverβs taking the lead will make sure the other personβs informed and youβre on the same page. But weβve come to a rhythm where we both do what weβre good at and interested in. If something needs to be fixed, Iβm pretty detail orientated, so Iβm like the secretary basically, which Iβm happy to be my wifeβs secretary. I have no problem with that. βWarwick, you need to call this contractor or this and arrange this.β Got it. Iβll make it happen. And so it happens. So I donβt know. Itβs more just making sure each person does what they can contribute. So I donβt know. Does that make sense or fit at all?
Kaley K:
Yeah. Well, so I think youβre saying two things that are really connected. So one is about you would miss out on joy if you tried to make it totally fair to the point of she enjoys cooking. Not only would the family sufferβ¦ Iβm not β¦cooking too muchβ¦ but thereβs a space where she enjoys it. So trying to make it fair actually is in that negative. I think the other thing that youβre speaking to you though is intentional roles. That one of the things that we found especially in our interviews is that people will end up doing things just because they do. And we fondly refer to it as the wing-it approach.
Kaley K:
There was one couple we were talking with, and I thought it was so funny where the dad was saying, βI donβt know exactly how this happened, but Iβm the toothbrush guy.β There was no conversation about it, but if heβs not there, the children donβt brush their teeth. Heβs like, βThereβs something very strange about this.β But thereβs a way that you and your wife it sounds like have made really wise choices where you say, βIβm going to take the more detail-oriented things. Iβm going to take more of the financial piece.β And she says, βIβm going to take the creative or the design or the cooking piece.β But you both know, so thereβs not toe stepping nor is there resentment where sheβs like, βHow come Iβm not doing that?β And youβre likeβ¦ Youβre also not saying, βHow come youβre not balancing this account?β
Warwick F:
Right. Right. Itβs true. I donβt know where it fits, because Iβm no expert on marriage or whatever, but certainly other concepts thatβ¦ words like acceptance and forgiveness. For instance, I grew up in a very wealthy background, so Iβm not like Mr. Fix It. Yes, I can assemble an Ikea piece of furniture, but if you want me to-
Kaley K:
Youβre better than I am.
Warwick F:
If you want me to build a deck, no. Iβm not the build-a-deck guy.
Gary S:
Itβs funny. I did not grow up in a very wealthy background, and I canβt do that stuff either. I can hammer a nail in the wall, but thatβs about it.
Warwick F:
So itβs not just me. Okay. Thatβs good to know.
Kaley K:
Weβre all in good company here.
Gary S:
There you go.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I guess my point is my wifeβs dad, he was a oral surgeon and did fine and all that. But he was Mr. Fix It. So itβs like, βWell, my dad can do this and this. Why do you have to call someone?β Well, fortunately, we had the means to do that, but I donβt have any interest in that nor am I good at it. And so, we each had some things in which we had to accept about the other. And then, when we make mistakes, obviously, Iβm a big believer in forgive and communication, Iβm hypervigilant about communication. Iβm often accused of over-communicating.
Kaley K:
Is there such a thing?
Warwick F:
If I think thereβs 1% chance thereβs an issue, make sure thereβs not. Iβm very vigilant that way. So acceptance, forgiveness, where does that fit into the 80/80 concept, because obviously these are not new concepts. Whatβs your thought about all that?
Kaley K:
I think that that would fit in that mindset pillar. We think about mindset and structure as being the two pillars. But in this mindset of radical generosity, thereβs, in some ways, three mutually reinforcing positive things. So one is this idea of contribution. So I want to show up giving my best. But I think what youβre describing is wearing the glasses of appreciation, rather than those of criticism. That as youβre contributing the gifts to us and the family, I notice those, I speak to those, I recognize those, I appreciate you for them, rather than wearing my glasses always a deficiency where, βHow come you canβt fix thatβ or βHow come your cooking isnβt greatβ or whatever it might be that, as we are giving to the relationship from a spirit of radical generosity, as weβre seeing our partners through those glasses of appreciation, so if theyβre seeing them through radical generosity.
Kaley K:
And then, thereβs clearing, which is really when something happens because weβre human. We make mistakes. Weβll say things that are off. To reveal that inner experience, βHey, when you said that, I felt embarrassed.β And to make a request about it, βMy request is that in front of our friends you present me in a positive light.β And what I noticed and we were talking about candor earlier and its importance in leadership, I think in intimate relationships is just as important, because that little tiny thing, if you clear it right away, it is that. Itβs an opportunity for knowing each other and closeness. But if that little tiny thing somehow gets reinforced or gets bigger or grows legs and runs away, before you know it, thereβs a significant issue that, in some ways, has a very addressable root, had you caught it early.
Warwick F:
I think itβs so true. You talk about radical generosity, the thought came to mind is radical encouragement. Again, as I mentioned, itβs one of my highest values. But encouragement begins at home. Rather than tell your friends, βOh, my husband/my wife, boy, I really like A or B.β Well, how about telling them? And, as you said, cut them some slack when they make mistakes.
Warwick F:
One of the things I think people are loathe to do in our society is apologize. People think apologize is weakness and vulnerability, which I think itβs strength. Itβs okay. I have this attitude, which I donβt always live. If thereβs a 50/50 chance Iβm responsible, why not apologize? Iβm a person on faith, so itβs like I think God will cut me some slack if I apologize for something I wasnβt guilty of. The universe wonβt hold it against me. I think itβs okay. Err on the side ofβ¦ Iβm not saying you go overboard, apologize things that you know is totally not your fault. But there are certain principles to me that are reallyβ¦ That whole radical generosity, encouragement, vulnerability, being willing to listen and admit maybe that you were wrong andβ¦ I donβt know. I feel like that doesnβt always happen. And thatβs where snowballs happen.
Kaley K:
I think that youβre naming something so powerful, which is it is vulnerable. And I appreciate Brene Brown so much for helping translate vulnerability into an expression of courage, because certainly thatβs how I experience it. But there is a trust enhancement in a vulnerable act which can be revealing if something hurt my feelings, even if my inner voice is saying some version of, βYou should be bigger than thatβ or βYou shouldnβt let little β¦ bother you.β But just, itβs vulnerable to say, βGosh, that affected me.β And itβs also vulnerable to say, βIβm sorryβ and to own your part and to recognize that sometimes intention and the experience that the other person has, they donβt match and to be able to clean that up where you say, βGosh. That wasnβt my intention and Iβm so sorry that it landed that way.β
Warwick F:
So just talk about as with the 80/80 book and all and you had successful consulting, speaking, how has that whole between 2007 and writing this book, how has that shifted maybe your paradigm or maybe career direction orβ¦ I donβt knowβ¦ if it has. I have a feeling itβs caused a shift, not just internally, but in terms of what you do and where you see yourself going.
Kaley K:
Well, so especially since writing or beginning this process of writing the book about two years ago, a lot has really shifted. So as I think about my work, the paradigm has become really different. That I would say I am certainly guilty for the first 13 years of my marriage really thinking about me and what my career is going to be, and being supportive and really jazzed about the things that my husband was doing, but saying, βI have my things and you have your thingsβ and not thinking about it in terms of, βHow do we win together?β
Kaley K:
And so, being in the conversation just from a different perspective where instead of saying, βThey would be good for me to take on this client. Would it be good for my career to do this keynote?β Really asking the question, βWhatβs in the best interest of us and our relationship and our family?β Itβs a little cheesy, but Iβll tell you anyway. So we named our family unit. So the first two letters of each of our names, so itβs Kajona and β
Gary S:
Awesome.
Kaley K:
And so weβll ask, βWas that in the best interest of Kajona?β Weβve made really different choices based on, βOkay. Whatβs in the best interest is for me to not travel that weekβ or βWhatβs in the best interest is for you to cut down to 50% time. Whatβs in the best interest is for us to get outside help for that.β But framing it differently has absolutely done a paradigm shift.
Gary S:
And itβs interesting that we started talking about you worked a lot with leaders in professional contexts, and now youβre spending time in personal relational contexts. None of us think twice about doing what you just said in professional contexts. Is this in the best interest of XYZ Corporation? Is this in best interest of my team? Why is it so hard or harder to do it in the context of relationships? I hear you say that about your family, about Kajona and I think, βWow. Thatβs revolutionary.β Itβs not revolutionary in business. Why is it revolutionary in personal relationships?
Kaley K:
Itβs a great question, Gary. I think thereβs actually, thereβs two sides to that. I think what youβre describing happens in excellent organizations where that is explicit. Make the decision thatβs best for the organization first, and I will hear leaders say, βMake the decision thatβs in the best interest of the organization, not the decision that you think Iβm going to like.β And I think in a lot of organizations, there actually can be a slipping back into, βWell, gosh, what will advance my career,β rather than, βWhatβs in the best interest of the organization?β βWhat will make me look goodβ versus βHow will this promote the product or the service or the company or whatever it is that weβre up to?β
Kaley K:
Answering your question now, I think itβs one of the great mysteries of life that many of the things that are natural in organizationsβ¦ For instance, almost every organization Iβve worked with has a mission or a vision and a set of values. And yet, many, many family units donβt. At least they donβt have it explicitly stated. I think some of it is recognizing that the lines are blurry. I think certainly now where home and work as intermingled as they have ever been. But I think thereβs also a space where some people feel resistant to the idea of running their family like a business, that theyβre like, βI want to work to be work and I want family to be family.β And I respect that mind. I think, however, bringing in some of the best tools from both sides is really valuable. Bring in that planning those values from the corporate into your family. Bring from your family that idea of radical generosity, which in a corporate setting is often phrased as βassume positive intent.β
Warwick F:
You raise a really fascinating point that when in an all corporate organizational setting, you say, βWhatβs in the best interest of the organization?β Well, your family unit is an organization, so whatβs in the best interest of this family organization as a whole, because weβre a unit? Not about my interest or his interest or her interest. Whatβs best for the team. And if you ask the right questions, if youβre people of good will, you can probably come up with the right answer.
Warwick F:
Then you maybe go back to your values list. So if we have to choose between my career, your career or other organizations, which organization is a highest priority in our values list? Itβs probably your family organization is the most important, more important than other organizations or careers. And then thatβs a value judgment. Iβm guessing itβs probably the way yours is. So if thatβs true, then letβs make sure we put the values of the family organization first and letβs talk about what that looks like. Itβs not about winners and losers. Letβs collectively agree. And itβs probably mission possible. It sounds like you can have the big war, but with the right questions and the right mindset, those things can get resolved. Does that make sense? People that think that way, right?
Kaley K:
I think thatβs right. And I think maybe weβll mix in too many metaphors here, but I think about it also like sports teams, that if youβre only thinking about your own statsβ¦ I recently watched The Last Dance. If Michael Jordan were thinking exclusively about his own stats, they would not have been world champions all those years. And you could see if you watched that, there was a mindset shift where it went from βIβm going to score the most points. Iβm going to have the most rebounds. Iβm going to be the MVPβ to βWeβre going to win as a team and as a unit.β And with that mindset shift, totally different things became possible.
Warwick F:
But what youβre saying is if you want to win in marriage or in life, donβt think about your own stats.
Kaley K:
Yes.
Warwick F:
Thatβs kind of what youβre saying.
Kaley K:
Win as a team.
Warwick F:
Yeah. It seems like itβs a β¦ So one other thing you talk a lot about here in Crucible Leadership is we have the paradigm which we talk about weβre not against success, but what we say is we want people to lead a life of significance, which means a life on purpose dedicated to serving othersβ¦ however, each individual, however they look at that paradigm. So itβs pretty clear to me as I see what youβre doing, but talk about what a life is significance looks like now, given where you are now and given what youβre just doing with 80/80 marriage. I could guess, but rather than guess, what does that look like for you?
Kaley K:
I would love to hear your guess. My greatest dream, Warwick, is that this book would have an impact so that couples have additional tools to be able to win as a team and that, in my world, the more teamwork, the more generosity, the more love, that there is in the world, the better place it gets to be, and that if these tools can serve in that way, that feels to me like a very significant contribution.
Warwick F:
Can you imagine a generation of kids growing up in families where their parents practice radical generosity and thatβs modeled for them, so they, in their turn, with their partners, husbands, wives? That will cause a ripple-like revolution, a positive revolution, a blessing, if you will.
Kaley K:
That is a dream that I would love to see come to fruition.
Gary S:
That sound was the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign. We are going to be landing the plane soon. Before we do that, thereβs couple things I want to do and I know Warwick will want to ask you another question Iβm sure. But one thing, Kaley, first of all, how can listeners get a hold of you, find out about the book, find out more about you and the services you offer?
Kaley K:
Absolutely. So the easiest place to find out about the book is 8080marriage.com.
Gary S:
And those are 8-0-8-0, right?
Kaley K:
8080marriage.com. Exactly. And if you are an Instagram person, every day we put a tip or a challenge out on Instagram. So follow us there on Instagram. Itβs also 8080marriage, so 8-0-8-0-marriage. And then, you can find out more just about me either on that site or at kaleyklemp.com.
Gary S:
And those are both with Ks, correct?
Kaley K:
They are. K-A-L-E-Y-K-L-E-M-P.
Gary S:
See with a last name like Schneeberger, Iβm always very, very focused on the spelling of things. I want to ask you one last question before I let you go and then Warwick will finish up and that is: For people who are listening to this, our listeners who are hearing themselves in some of the crucible-like experiences youβre talking about, and they donβt know where to begin, they donβt know what to do whatβs next. Iβve heard this. This makes sense.
Gary S:
But now what? One of the things Warwick has talked about much on the show, of late in particular, is the power of one small step. You may not have to have the entire road map before you start moving toward a solution, moving beyond your crucible, but there is one small step. What in your estimation, in your advice, in your wisdom, whatβs one small step listeners who find themselves maybe trying to live a 50/50 marriage and they want to get to an 80/80 marriage? Whatβs one small step they can take?
Kaley K:
Well, so I think there is an internal step and thereβs an external step. So the internal step is to change your self-talk from fairness to generosity. At anytime that moment of resentment arises, just to change it to say, βAnd in this moment, what would radical generosity look like?β Thatβs an internal shift. If you want more externally, I would say absolutely a small step is read the book. Whether you implement it or not, itβs a great place to start.
Gary S:
Bravo. The PR guy in me applauds that answer. Warwick, back to you?
Warwick F:
Yeah. Wow. Thatβs awesome. So I think youβve said before thereβs probably been a shift in really,β¦ I think the whole 80/80 marriage and how to have more fulfilled marriages and relationships is probably your passion Iβm guessing. So we also talk a bit here about legacy. As you think of what you would like your legacy to be, how does the 80/80 marriage and that whole thing play into what you would like to feel like youβve left the world in terms of all this?
Kaley K:
Gosh. It feels like such a big question.
Gary S:
Thatβs why itβs the last one.
Kaley K:
Right. Do I get to define my own legacy? For me, itβs relationships across the board. So if the work that I do with leaders through 15 commandments and conscious leadership and drama-free office creates healthier relationships for our people as they spend so much of their time at work, and then, those more connected, more generous relationships for people at home. If relationships are enhanced, gosh, it would be incredible if that were a piece of the legacy that I got to leave.
Gary S:
Well, that right there was the sound thatβ¦ Iβve been in the communications business long enough to know when the last wordβs spoken and that was it. Normally, I try to wrap up in some key takeaways, but here we talked about transparency on this episode, and Iβm going to be transparent enough to say that Iβm not nearly as good as Kaley. So I wrote notes, but Iβm not going to say them. Listener, your key takeaways are: Listen to the show again, because Kaley really unpacks things extraordinarily well. Thatβs her area of expertise. And this isnβt a 50/50 exchange where Iβm anywhere near as good as she is in doing that. So please go back, check out her website, listen to this show and dig into the insights that she offers, because the insights she offers can indeed help you through your crucibles.
Gary S:
And speaking of crucibles, until the next time we are together to talk about crucible experiences to offer. Warwick has said this, βWe operate in the realm of hope.β Thatβs what we do. We try to provide hope that you can move beyond your crucible. So until the next time weβre together to talk about those things, please remember this about your crucible experience, whether itβs professional or personal or a mixture of both. Right now, it seems extraordinarily painful probably. It will not always feel that way. If you learn the lessons that your crucible is trying to teach you, if you dig in, if youβre transparent, if youβre vulnerable, if youβre authentic and you see inside what the crucibleβs trying to teach you, and learn those lessons and apply them moving forward, your crucible in that case will not be the end of your story. In fact, it will be the beginning of a better story, a new chapter in your story. And why it is a better story is because that chapter in that book leads to a different destination and that destination is a life of significance.
From the tragic beginnings of being orphaned then abused by his guardian uncle, to his adulthood as a crack addict who fathered seven children by five woman, Marvin Charles was an unhappy story just waiting on a sad ending. But then he got sober and embraced God as his anchor β and dramatically rewrote his destiny. Divine Alternatives for Dads β D.A.D.S. β the nonprofit he founded 20 years ago after navigating the legal system to put his family back together, has helped 5,000 men reclaim their roles as fathers and learn the practical and emotional skills to knit their own families back together.
For more information about Marvin Charles and D.A.D.S, visit www.aboutdads.org
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. Iβm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Marvin C:
The freedom that I had caused me to be arrested all over this country. It caused me to live a lifestyle that caused me to become an alcoholic addict. Now, I was free, and the thing about freedom is usually when a person gets free, they move into a particular community and they stay in that community, and so they become accustomed to that community and all that goes on in that community. If itβs drugs and alcohol, when youβre in a community or an environment that does that, and you donβt try to get out of that, because everything else seems strange to you, or unappreciative, you didnβt know that. Well, I did that. I did that for 20 plus years.
Marvin C:
I wound up having seven children from five different women, and then the desire to get clean came and went, but I never could hold that down because I didnβt have any focus.
Gary S:
That doesnβt sound too much like the fruits, at least the good fruits of freedom, does it? Yet thatβs the life, todayβs guest, Marvin Charles, lived for decades. The life he desperately wanted as an orphaned and abused child who just wanted to live life on his terms.
Gary S:
Hi, Iβm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. Youβll hear today in Warwickβs extremely moving conversation with Marvin, how sometimes the things we long for to ease our pain can actually cause us more pain. Sometimes our crucibles, if we donβt process them wisely, can lead to more crucibles. But hereβs the good news that Marvinβs story underscores. From your greatest pain can come your greatest triumph. Heβs found a life of true significance through learning the lessons of his missteps and applying them to help men, many of whom are living just like he used to, embrace their role as fathers, and build lives of joy. He does it all through Divine Alternatives for Dads Services, acronym, DADS, the Seattle nonprofit heβs been running now for 20 years.
Warwick F:
Well, Marvin, thank you for being here. I love what your organization does. Divine Alternatives for Dads Services. I love what Gary just read about, what was it? Embracing a living God for a larger purpose?
Gary S:
Thatβs exactly it. Yep.
Warwick F:
Boy, that is powerful. Marvin, before we get into DADS and what you do, Iβd love to hear a bit about you in the Seattle Area, understand. Iβd love to hear a bit about your background growing up, early memories, kind of set the scene of who is Marvin Charles, and how did he grow up and a little about your family story.
Marvin C:
Iβd be glad and honored to do that, Warwick. Iβm born and raised in Seattle. I had what was called, I donβt know if you remember the program, Leave it to Beaver.
Warwick F:
Right.
Marvin C:
That was my family. It was the urban perspective of that, but I guess later on it became the Cosby, but trust me, all I knew was Leave it to Beaver. I had a sister, Marion and I. We were we had a mother and father in our home. My mom prepared lunch for us, we walked to school together when things were much more sensible during that time. It was the early β60s. Then one day we came home from school and my mother was on the couch and she was on the couch for a couple of days, and then they rushed her off to the hospital and we never seen her again. Well, she passed away.
Marvin C:
I remember I was nine years old. My sister was seven, and my aunt and uncle came over. My father was there. He was a guy who spent a lot of time working. She took care of the home and the children and he worked and provided the resources that it took. But when this part of our life was stopped, we had to move to live with our aunt and uncle. This was the aunt and uncle that you had to dress up to go over to their house. They had plastic on their furniture. Itβs the one you really didnβt want to go there, but so now we were living there.
Marvin C:
I remember the first thing my uncle told me was that wasnβt your mother, thatβs not your father. You guys belong to the state, but weβre going to take care of you. I was nine years old. If I didnβt know anything else, I knew that at nine years old, thatβs not what you tell a nine year old.
Warwick F:
When you heard that, youβre nine and theyβre saying, weβre your aunt and uncle, but you belong to the state. Emotionally, what are you hearing from them?
Marvin C:
Well, you know what? Mind you, our mother had just passed away. I couldnβt get past that aspect of it. I remember running out the house and going next door and my cousin coming to get me, his son, βWhat are you doing? Why are you doing this?β It was what I knew that I was in for. I couldnβt even wrap my heads around what he said or what was taking place, itβs whatβs getting ready to happen next. I stayed in that mind frame for six years when we went to move with my aunt and uncle. The first I got, I remember I was playing with my sister in my room, and I broke the window, my glass window pane, and so he made me go outside, get some bricks across the street in a lot, bring them back, crush them up on newspaper, then kneel in them while I held two other rocks over my shoulders.
Marvin C:
If I lowered my elbows below my shoulder, he threatened to hit me with this strap. That was the first punishment at 10 years old. That can give you a snapshot of what I was faced with for the next six years. Then I wore a Catholic uniform to a public school so all the kids made fun of me. It was really an alienation that from the time I was 10 years old till I was 16, that was really humiliating. I spent a lot of time living in my head, really living in my head. Didnβt have friends that I could play with or people I could count on. I always kid and joke about it, but Iβm very serious about it. I felt like I never went to prison because I did a long time in prison because I had already did six years in prison, and that was my mindset.
Marvin C:
At the time I was 16, I really couldnβt take it anymore. I would complain to my guidance counselor at school, and I lost my door key. The guidance counselor said, listen, donβt run away. If you run away, run to the youth center, because if you donβt, the police will get you and just bring you right back. That was the only advice that β¦ I have marinated on that advice for a long time, and so I lost my door key, came home one day, begged my sister to leave her key out. She left her key out. My uncle came home, stepped on the mat, found the key and was waiting for me when I came to the door, and he said, Listen, I want you to go get another brick from across the street.β
Marvin C:
I knew what punishment I was slated for. When I went to go get the brick, I just took off and kept running, and I ran to the youth center. They called him and told him that they had me and that there was no need for him to come looking for me, and they set a court date and they brought us together a week later. I remember my aunt, Iβm sitting between my aunt and uncles the most. I was 16 years old. I was scared to death. I didnβt know what was going to take place. The judge asked my uncle, he said, βThis child has told us about a number of different things that had taken place, and I want to know, are they true?β
Marvin C:
My uncle said, βYes, your honor. I believe if a child lives in my household, he must abide by my rules and regulation.β The judge slammed the mallet down and said, I make this child a ward of the courts. I donβt think my uncle was expecting that.
Warwick F:
When the judge slams that hammer down, what do you think he was saying? He was giving a judgment about his rules and regulations on your uncle? What was that judgment that, that judge gave to your uncle, would you say?
Marvin C:
That I was to not go back to that household.
Warwick F:
But do you feel like in some sense he was condemning your uncleβs behavior or your uncleβs disciplinary philosophy or something?
Marvin C:
I think, for me, all I saw was Iβm free. I mean, itβs like, I can imagine this, and I know this is probably not a ethical topic to speak about, but I just imagined myself what a slave mustβve felt like when they got a chance to see freedom and nothing stopped them. That was how passionate I was about just being free. Free of the stuff that I was faced with for the past six years. That was a good thing, but it was dangerous as well, but I only came to know that later.
Gary S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Right. I want to pick up that in a second, but your uncle obviously showed you plenty of discipline, but did he or your aunt give you an equal measure of love, that unconditional love that every human spirit craves sort of like milk? Was that any part of it?
Marvin C:
I donβt think so, and thatβs something Iβve had a lot of time to ponder about. What gives me the significant understanding about that is because love wouldnβt allow me to go off the rails later on in my life, which then I realized I was recreating the same situation into my own childrenβs life. Why was that?
Warwick F:
Yeah, and thatβs a scary thing that β¦ I love history, and sadly history tends to repeat itself. Most of us throughout the last several hundred or thousand years, we donβt learn. People will persecute others, take advantage. You hear about people who are raised alcoholic homes and they become alcoholics, or theyβd been abused as a kid and they abuse their own kids. I canβt imagine how you could possibly do that. Iβm not a psychologist, but it seems like itβs all too common.
Marvin C:
But hereβs why, because truth be told, you donβt know anything else. You only do what you know. If you were raised in an environment that those behaviors that you were faced with are what you learned, so then you come and grow up and then youβre faced with the same circumstances that you β¦ I donβt mean the behavior part of it, but a circumstance like now Iβm a father and I have a family, and I have to raise my family. I remember specifically using these words, my uncle used to say, βI want you, and I want you like you came into this world.β
Marvin C:
Now, that meant, go upstairs, take all your clothes off because Iβm getting ready to spank you, so you knew when he said that, right?
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Marvin C:
When I became a father and started having children around me, I would use the same language. I want you, and I want you like you came in this world. Where did that come from? I didnβt like it when he was doing it to me.
Warwick F:
You probably didnβt even realize what you were saying in the context where it came in the heat of the moment. Out it comes, but that is haunting, I guess.
Marvin C:
It was. To be honest with you, when I got free from that situation, I moved into another foster home that the state paid my friendβs mother to give me a place there. He had his nieces and nephews living there and he and his mom and her boyfriend, and all I would do was clean up and wash dishes, and mop, and clean because I didnβt know anything else. The kids would make fun of me. They would say, βWhat are you β¦β Iβm 16, 17 years, and all I know how to do is clean up behind people. I started getting a little looser with that. It was the β70s and things were going on in black communities across this country.
Marvin C:
I went and saw the movie Super Fly. Now, all of a sudden, for the first time in my life, I know what I want to be. I donβt have any restraints. I donβt have any people saying, you ought to do this. You ought to do that. I thought the utmost that a person could have is freedom, and I had plenty of it. So I went and got clothes and looked like him, I went and got my hair fixed like him. I went and did all of these things. Now, I spend the next 20 years trying to do everything I thought he did. Now, I didnβt know. I just saw a movie. A movie lasted two hours. I spent 20 years trying to live into that movie.
Warwick F:
Is that what you were talking about earlier about you crave freedom and you got it, but yet there was a side of freedom that you didnβt appreciate. What was that side that you learned later about? Freedom is a wonderful thing, but there was something about it that didnβt seem so positive. How would you frame that?
Marvin C:
The freedom that I had caused me to be arrested all over this country. It caused me to live a lifestyle that caused me to become an alcoholic addict. Now, I was free. The thing about freedom is usually when a person gets free, they move into a particular community and they stay in that community, and so they become accustomed to that community and all that goes on to that community. So, if itβs drugs and alcohol, when youβre in a community or an environment that does that, and you donβt try to get out of that because everything else seems strange to you, or unappreciative, you didnβt know that. Well, I did that. I did that for 20 plus years.
Marvin C:
I wound up having seven children from five different women, and then the desire to get clean came and went, but I never could hold that down because I didnβt have any focus. Then I realized one day I went to a treatment center that I stayed there for 90 days. That 90 days of clarity gave me something that I had not known. First of all, halfway through there, I met the person of Jesus Christ. Somebody asked me, βDonβt you want a personal relationship with Jesus?β Which I had no idea what that was.
Warwick F:
You didnβt really have much of a faith upbringing, either from your parents or uncle and aunt, they werenβt like even religious or church going?
Marvin C:
Not at all. In fact, he said, βI want you guys to go to church.β His statement was, βAnd donβt wake us up to take you. You need to make it there.β So, there was no real strong preference of that in our household. It was before my mother passed away, but at nine, that just fleeted out away. My lifestyle, certainly that didnβt compliment it at all. You know what I mean? This Jesus that I knew was this kind of Jesus, anytime I was in trouble, Lord, if you get me out of this, I wonβt do it again.
Warwick F:
Kind of what they call a transactional relationship.
Marvin C:
Exactly, and I never kept up my end of the deal. You know what I mean?
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Marvin C:
Yeah, thatβs what took place, but when I got to this treatment center, I met this person called Jesus, and I was in a place, my children were scattered throughout the foster care system. My girlfriend was still using and I had two babies by her. What I realized, and this is, I think the epiphany that I had, I had children who were growing up in the foster care system just like me. I recreated the same thing in their life, and if I didnβt like it, how could I do the same thing to them? I think thatβs when the wheels started turning for me.
Marvin C:
All I knew how to do is Jesus, if you are who you say you are, then help me. You have my undivided attention. Iβve created something in their lives that I didnβt like it, and I didnβt realize that my disobedience has caused this, and I need you to help me get out of this. That was all I was looking for.
Warwick F:
What was the paradigm shift? Because youβre living a life where youβve got a number of different relationship, different kids with different folks. I mean, thereβs a shift in thinking. What was the old way of thinking? How did that shift β¦ I mean-
Marvin C:
Thatβs a great question. In my former life, after leaving my aunt and uncle and turning 18 years old, I managed to graduate my high school. But after seeing the movie Super Fly, all I wanted to do was be a pimp, and I lived that lifestyle very well all across this country. But when I picked up this crack cocaine habit that I started really doing myself bad. I started being with women and I wasnβt treating them good, and I wasnβt treating myself, and they werenβt treating me.
Marvin C:
The lifestyle just started being really wonky, really up and down, and I got tired. I literally got tired of living. Then, one of the mothers left me my son, who was my third child, his name was Marvin. He was five years old, and I didnβt have any stability for him. I knew that that wasnβt right. I tried to get in other relationships and play house and do these things, but none of that was working. It came to the point where, if I really want to get clean, Iβm going to have to set my son someplace, and I donβt know any place thatβll be appropriate for him, but I got to weigh this.
Marvin C:
I took him to his motherβs house, which was not a good place at all. She lived with her grandmother, all her sisters, they all had children, and he was in the midst of it, and I wasnβt very well liked by that particular family, but I had to put my son somewhere. I went into treatment and I had to really deal with this thought. The first thought was, I just need to get off these drugs. I just really need to reframe myself. What is it like to think clearly without being under the influence? Can I make some reasonable decisions?
Marvin C:
That was a turning point that this gave me an opportunity to really see life through lifeβs lenses. I still didnβt know what to do. I was 40 plus years old. I got seven kids. I donβt have a trade, I donβt have a degree, I donβt have anything, but I trusted the Lord enough to guide me and lead me. Three months in treatment, I got out. The mother of my two youngest children came in as I got out, and so the courts gave me the opportunity to say β¦ Let me throw this piece in. I left one of our drug-filled environments with my seven month old daughter, because I was mad about guys coming in and out of my house and saying, I want to see your old lady, and so I just grabbed the baby who I had been changing diapers and feeding for the seven months since she was born.
Marvin C:
I went to the hospital to leave her on the steps of the hospital, and I got to the hospital and I couldnβt do it. I went to a womanβs shelter and they told me, βTake her to the CPS office.β So, I did that. CPS is a child protection agency. I went there, I took my daughter there and they treated me like I was public enemy number one. They were right to do so because they had been coming β¦ I had two other children who were in custody of the CPS, and they had been coming to our house, knocking on the door, and weβd tell everybody to be quiet, and I wouldnβt respond. Now, Iβm showing up on their doorstep, and theyβre like, βSo, now what do you want us to do?β I just was determined.
Marvin C:
I said, βListen, I donβt know what to do.β Well, there was a lady who came out of the back and said, βListen, in order for us to do this, the motherβs going to have to sign off.β I said, βNo problem.β She drove me in the baby back to our drug-filled environment, I told the mother, βWe need to sign and give this child up. I want to go get myself together.β She signed the paper reluctantly, and then the lady left with the baby. I went to say goodbye to the baby. I got locked out of the house so instantly I became homeless. I knew that Iβm 40 plus years old, this is no way for a 40-year-old man to be living.
Marvin C:
You donβt have anything to do with your life. That stayed on my mind once I got into treatment, and when somebody introduced me to Christ, I said, βIβm here, I surrender. Show me what to do.β
Warwick F:
You were sort of at the bottom of the pit, the bottom of the crucible. It sounds like before you saw that movie, Super Fly, you were maybe drifting through life, maybe lifeβs unfair. I didnβt have a great life. People werenβt nice to me. Itβs all about me. I donβt know. Was there a conscious plan? Who cares about everybody else? Nobody else cares about me. The worldβs not fair, itβs so messed up. Iβm just going to enjoy myself and just get through each day as best I can. Was it like something along those lines?
Marvin C:
That was my script. Itβs about me. Iβm going to take care of me. Everybody always said I was bad. Well, Iβm going to be a bad man. You know what I mean? I went from Hollywood, to New York, to Washington, DC, to Florida, to Texas. To me, for a while, that was a life. Allowed me to do pretty women, plenty money, but thatβs the lure. That was the lure because it was not substantial.
Gary S:
Itβs true, isnβt it, Marvin, that it was about you, you just said that, you were living for yourself, but you mentioned, as you were going through those years, you had several children.
Marvin C:
Yes.
Gary S:
I think you even said, at one point when you and I talked before this, that you had brought Marvin Jr into a crack house with you. While youβre living for yourself, you are creating a family, and at what point did you realize, as you were coming back from your crucibles, as you were trying to come to yourself and live a more responsible life, did you β¦ What was that epiphany moment when you said, oh my gosh, Iβve got these kids and I have a responsibility to them. When did that happen for you?
Marvin C:
Again, when I stood in front of that hospital to leave my seven month old daughter on the steps, I realized that she didnβt ask for this. None of my children asked for that. Why does this seem so familiar? Itβs because I was left, and because I was left, it doesnβt give me the right to leave somebody else. There has to be something different. It has to be. What I came to the understanding was, and I think this happened in treatment, but if I donβt do it, nobody else is going to do it for me.
Marvin C:
If I donβt make the attempt, whatever it was, if I donβt make the attempt, so when I entered into this relationship with Jesus Christ, what I did was β¦ I didnβt, donβt get me wrong, it wasnβt like a light bolt of lightning came out of the sky and hit me and said, no, no. I had to work at this relationship, and I didnβt know anything about Jesus, I didnβt know anything about the things that he does in peopleβs lives. All mines were experience, and so here was my first experience. I got a treatment. I knew I still loved the mother, who Iβm married to today, but she was still using, and the thought about β¦
Marvin C:
When youβre in recovery of drugs and alcohol, they tell you, βYou need to leave your past behind you.β Well, I found that very difficult to do. I got children, but how do I do that? It caused me to have to lean on this person, Jesus. You have to guide me because I donβt know what to do. Iβm scared to death. I donβt have the experience that most people have. So, who do I trust? It came down to just this, Warwick, I had to trust Jesus for everything. For everything. I didnβt know how to do that. I remember I would ask people, βHey man, does Jesus talk to you?β
Marvin C:
People would look at me like, well, heβs crazy, but I didnβt know anything to do. Iβll tell you this, let me add this little piece here. That same son that talking to you about, heβs named Marvin, heβs 31 years old today, and the mother of his children passed away six months ago, and heβs gotten his children, and he and I had a volatile relationship for years. About six years ago, he came into my office, and we have a Bible study in my office and he sat down. I was late that day. I walked in and heβs in the middle of the Bible study, and heβs ranting, and heβs raving, and heβs talking loud and crazy.
Marvin C:
I sit in the corner and Iβm like, wow. Thereβs about 25 men in this room. We call this Bible study park bench to Park Avenue, because you got people who come out of the ivory towers and people who come out prison sitting in the same room together. Then one of the brothers got up and said, Here, man, hereβs what we do in this room.β And they picked him up. My son is 6β8β³. I have two of them, one 6β7β³ and one 6β8β³. They sat him in the chair and the brothers got around him and laid hands and prayed for him. He got up and he went and sat down, and I saw what he did, and I knew heβd been angry at me, and I apologized over the years because God made me understand that there was a lot of damage I did, but nothing ever happened.
Marvin C:
When I sat down in that chair that day, and I began to say, βMan, I used to drag you from crack house to crack house. I used, I wasnβt real responsible. I did all kinds of things, and Iβm sorry. I know Iβve told you this before, but I β¦ And I think the fact that Iβve made that a mensβ comment to him in the room full of 25 men, it did something. It broke something, because he got up, he came over to me, he got on his knees, and he put his arms around my calf and he said, βDad, all I ever wanted to do was make you proud of me.β
Warwick F:
Oh wow.
Marvin C:
Wasnβt a dry eye in the room. Wasnβt a dry eye in the room, and Iβm thinking, God only you could have done that. Iβve tried to do this for years, but it didnβt work, but you did it.
Warwick F:
Well, I guess His timing. Thatβs powerful. It sounded like, obviously the big shift in your life was with faith in Christ, I mean, your faith gave you an anchor for your soul that you probably never had before. It gave you a purpose and a reason for living that maybe you didnβt have. I mean, was that part of the shift?
Marvin C:
Youβre so spot on. I need to add a little bit to that story. When I got out of treatment and we fought for our kids, Jeanette and I fought for our kids through the system, which is why we started DADS because we had a victory. We had several victories. Well, here was one of the victories that gave me an astronomical belief in Jesus, more so, I tell my favorite line is, you canβt beat me having faith in what God will do for you. Hereβs what happened. We were just putting our house together, our family together, children were coming home. We had to get jobs, and my wife and I, and we were really trying to debate, okay, maybe you ought to stay home with the kids and I go to work because we canβt afford daycare with four kids in our house and all of that.
Marvin C:
That worked itself out. Then one day I came home from work and the phone rang. I answered the phone and somebody said, βIs this Marvin Charles?β Well, I thought it was a telemarketer. I said, βYes.β The lady said, βWell, thereβs a lady whoβs been looking for you for 43 and a half years and sheβs your mother, and she lives right down the street from you.β I was like, what? I couldnβt believe it. Jeanette had just went to pick the kids up to bring them home. I said, this lady just called and said, βMy mother has been looking for me and she lives right down the street.β We loaded the kids up when we went to that house, and there was this lady standing on the corner with her daughter and her niece, and it was my sister and my mother.
Marvin C:
I got out of the car and I grabbed this woman and we looked identical. So, she told me, βI had you when I was 14 years old, and my mother had a baby who was born seven months after you and the state wasnβt going to β¦ Because my mother was on welfare and they werenβt going to take care of both of us, so they took you and put you up for adoption.β Then the next day I asked her about my dad, βWhereβs he at?β She said, βWell, the last time I know he was living in Oakland.β We contacted him. I jumped on a plane to see him. Shortly after that, she jumped on a plane to see him. Now, mind you, when I was in treatment, the first prayer I prayed from this new relation with Jesus Christ was Lord, help me put my family back together again.
Warwick F:
The amazing thing is you probably didnβt know that you were adopted, right?
Marvin C:
Well, yeah, my uncle told me that, I belong to the state. Thatβs what that meant.
Warwick F:
Okay, but you didnβt know that you had a mother andβ¦
Marvin C:
No, no I didnβt know none of that. I had none of that.
Warwick F:
That is so unbelievable.
Marvin C:
Let me tell you what happened, Warwick. My mother jumped on a plane and went down to visit my dad. He asked her to marry her. She said, yes, they come back to Seattle. Now, I have this whole family that God put together.
Warwick F:
But that was one powerful prayer. Power of prayer, but Iβd like to hear a bit about DADS, but I think thereβs a part of your story, where, from what I understand, you got this award from The Atlantic Family Center. You put your family together, and as you put your family together, it gave you a vision of a mission and ministry, so talk about how you put your family together and then how that shifted into this whole movement, this ministry that you have.
Marvin C:
Really, it was out of complications that really the ministry came alive. My wife and I, after putting our family together, and then I went β¦ We did Good Morning America, we did some TV overseas, and when we came back, and after the dust settled, there was a real simplistic question that evolved. During that time was a crack epidemic and it was really strong in communities all over this country, and we felt like we had got a reprieve from it. So, we said there were people that we got high with, we did time with, we did crime with who were faced with the same situations. How could we take what weβve learned from navigating the system and help other people navigate the system. We literally called ourselves systems navigators.
Warwick F:
Just so the listeners know, because not everybody might understand the story, you had like six kids, they were foster care, but you brought all your kids together. You dealt with the system, got housing, got clean, got a job, to talk just a little bit about that as we shift to what you do now, because you were living what you now help other people. Because thatβs a miracle in of itself. It couldnβt have been easy what you did.
Marvin C:
See, we never looked at it like that. We looked at it like God gave us the ability to navigate the child welfare system, the child support system, the state system, where they give you money to take care of your family, but at some point, you have to pay that back. So, we were saying, okay, how do we do that? Well, Iβll tell you, this was the motivating moving factor. One day I come home from work. I got one job, itβs paying for all six of us in this house to take care of this family. We got a rental property.
Marvin C:
Money wasnβt coming very fast at all, but we were making the best of it. Now, mind you, you got to keep this in mind. I told you about the high part of life that I lived when I had no cares in the world. Now I got all these cares and not enough money to take care of it. Because of my relationship with Jesus, I was tempted a lot of time to go and resort back to some other mindsets, but thatβs what God delivered me from. Why would I go back there? So, how do I keep and maintain this? Well, then one day the child support system emptied my bank account out and I didnβt know what to do. I never had child support system, but my wife did, because the children were in the foster care system, it created a debt with child support. A lot of folks donβt know. Right?
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Marvin C:
She convinced them that, βNo, itβs not my money. Itβs his money. But because weβre married, he put my name on the bank account.β I donβt know how she did it, but she convinced them, they put the money back.
Warwick F:
Wow.
Marvin C:
Then what happened was she said, βDo you know how many other people are suffering through this? Just this aspect of it?β So, she worked with her child support counselor and built a very good relationship with them. So much so till literally, we would on the weekends go and talk to people who were having the same problem. I set up a little office in our house, where during the week the kids would go off to school, and from 10 oβclock to two oβclock, she would literally be working with clients or fathers in the community who had some of those same issues.
Warwick F:
That was part of the birth of DADS, of Divine Alternatives for Dads so it took a bit about, I think we understand how it was birthed. Talk about what that does and just the important mission that you have. What is that?
Marvin C:
Our mission statement is to give fathers hope by walking together in supportive community, helping navigate systems, relational and legal barriers which separate fathers from their children. We really believe that once you inform a father of the opportunities that fathering or fatherhood gives them, it changes the whole mindset of a father. It changes. I always say the greatest gift that a father can give is to prepare his children for a future that he will never see. Men get that. Thereβs another simplistic thing that we found out over 20 years ago.
Marvin C:
Most fathers want to just be heard, and there are not opportunities system-wise where they get heard. I have a conference room in my office here, and that table, we called the strongest table in the State of Washington because it has everybodyβs tears, everybodyβs complaints, everybody everything, and they get to leave it right there. Because of that work that weβve been able to do, we found out some significant things. In low income communities, when fathers have children, most fathers are there in the hospital when the child is born. Then I ask fathers, how many of you were there when your baby was born? They all raised their hands.
Marvin C:
How many of you signed the birth certificate? They all raised their hands. Well, what they donβt know is they didnβt sign a birth certificate. What they signed was a paternity affidavit, which is a promissory note to say, you will pay child support for this child, even if you find out itβs not yours, because this is a legal binding document. Now, I donβt tell him not to sign it. What I say is just know what youβre doing. Understand. Itβs a lot of things like that, that weβve β¦ Information weβve come across the last 22 years and we try to share with people. Donβt get mad at the system. Donβt get mad at the mother. These are some of the things youβve done. You just took it for granted when you were doing it. How do I know? Because I did it.
Warwick F:
It sounds like thereβs two levels. Thereβs the practical level navigating child welfare, helping them get clean, helping them get a job, helping them get housing, all of the things that you need to do to get your kids back. So, thereβs the practical, but it sounds like thereβs sort of the spiritual soul component in which people donβt change unless they have a reason to, unless you can shift their thinking. I imagine some of it might be, look, like you, I wasnβt treated fairly, life is unfair. The system is messed up. Nobody cares what I think. Nobody wants to listen to me. Why should I care about anybody else when nobody cares about me?
Warwick F:
That whole thinking says, thatβs probably not an easy β¦ Itβs not easy to shift that thinking, but somehow, thatβs a lot of the heavy lifting you do, is trying to shift this. Some of what they say is true, like life is unfair. There is systemic issues. There are objectively things that do make life unfair. Itβs not all their fault, but itβs easy to wade into all of that and just say, well, lifeβs unfair, so why should I care? How do you shift that thinking? Because it canβt be easy.
Marvin C:
Well, itβs not easy unless you think about it or you see it through a different set of lenses. Let me give you an example. The mentality that I had to have in order to embrace this person called Jesus Christ was a significant embrace, a significant way of thinking. But then I thought about it, and I said, well, whatever the devil asked me to do, I went and did it. I had no problem. If he said, I want you to go up in this bank with two 45βs, one in each hand, I would do it. Christ who is the preventer of me of sin and sin in my life and living a righteous life wouldnβt ask me to do any of those things. So, how do I find what he ask me to do more complicated than what the devil did?
Marvin C:
I had to seek and nourish my understanding on that. Thatβs the same thing I try to bring and preach to men that walk through my door.
Warwick F:
Whatβs the answer to that? Because thatβs a really good question. Why is it harder to do what God wants you to do?
Marvin C:
Because it was easier for me to do what the devil want, and this stuff that God wants me to do is new to me. But guess what? Being a pimp was new to me until I took the challenge of trying to do it, right? So, give Christ the same opportunity. Thatβs what I had to do, and so I do this to men all the time. Hereβs one of mine trade secrets. A man will come in and heβll talk to me about what the motherβs doing, and how come the mothers were late, and this is β¦ I let them talk for 30 minutes, and I purposely let them rant and rave for 30 minutes about what the mom does. Then I stop them and said, βI thought you were here because you wanted to see your child.β βI do.β βWell, youβve talked for 30 minutes and havenβt mentioned the child one time.β
Marvin C:
If I was a judge, I wouldnβt see anywhere in the world that you wanted to be involved in the childβs life. Thatβs the first linchpin. You canβt tell me that itβs about your child, but all youβre doing is talking about the mom and the unrighteousness. Youβre going to have to get over that. Thatβs not going to work. You catch them at the doorway with that understanding.
Warwick F:
It does. Thereβs something about maybe all human beings, no matter what theyβve been through, when they have a son or a daughter, when you say, youβve got a responsibility to care for them, do you feel like thereβs something, maybe a God given anchor, a thread, something that you can build on that it catches?
Marvin C:
Yes. Yes, exactly. Because most of them will resort back to the thinking, not initially, but they will resort back to the thinking, I donβt want my child to grow up like I grew up.
Warwick F:
I want to give my child a better life, a better opportunity than I had.
Marvin C:
Because of the significant turn of events in their life, they get away from that. Itβs like being on an island, they get away from that thinking. I said, βNo, Iβm a perfect example.β What we say to men is, βJust go get yourself together. You know why? Because one day your child is going to knock on your door, and what are you going to tell them? You know what theyβre going to say? If youβre not together, theyβre going to say, βYouβre just like what mom said you were.β
Warwick F:
That is a powerful motivator, isnβt it?
Marvin C:
Yes.
Warwick F:
And the vision, Iβm sure of your son, youβd apologize, but the power of when an apology is accepted, when youβve been forgiven, that moment, Iβm sure you share, because I talk about vulnerability for a purpose. That story probably helped a lot of other guys. You can have that moment with your son and your daughter, and thatβs something that you probably treasure forever in your heart.
Marvin C:
Itβs crazy because they treasure it just as much, and thatβs what DADS try to say is, youβre sitting here complaining about not being with your son, but what most men wonβt do is think, and I mean think that their child is somewhere missing them just as much.
Warwick F:
It is interesting. The Bible talks about sin can be passed down through seven generations, basically means forever. Itβs sort of a metaphor, but yet virtue can have the same effect. Obviously, as we talked about off air, I grew up in as different a background as you did. I mean, very, very different background, but one of the things I remember is the fellow that started the family media business. He was a strong a man of Christ as you could possibly get. He was an elder at his church.
Warwick F:
This is like in the early 1840s, he came out from England with nothing. He was a very good husband, very good dad. Heβs employees loved him. When he died, his employees said weβve lost a kind and valued employer. Yet, every aspect of his life was in balance. He was successful, but yet, he had incredible relationship with his kids. As I said, elder at his church and with his wife. Well, that faith lasted several generations. As the family became more successful, became a little bit more traditional, and a little less Christ centered, but that positive legacy has lasted for generations.
Warwick F:
Iβm the fifth generation. The impact, you talk about how there might be people that you have an effect on that you donβt know. Well, thatβs my great-great-grandfather. Very few people will know their great, great-grandkids, itβs almost technically impossible unless you live to 150, but yet, that positive aspect and the effect that heβs had on my life, my dad was a little bit more ecumenical, good guy, but a little bit sort of intellectual, not quite the same faith set in us, but that influence that heβs had on my life, John Fairfax, my great, great grandfather. Itβs hard to quantify. Thatβs a touch stone. Thatβs a legacy.
Warwick F:
Well, the people that you work with, they have a chance to affect five generations in their family, kids that theyβll never know. Thatβs a blessing that can, maybe not last forever, but last for a long time.
Marvin C:
I would challenge you to say forever.
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Marvin C:
Yes, right. Because children nowadays are equipped or have access to equip their selves on their own. Well, Iβm a prime example of what that will do. I donβt want my seven β¦ I had another daughter at 54, so Iβm 65 years old, so I just need you to know that. But the difference is she was raised up β¦ Sheβs being raised up in a two parent home, and she has no idea about the other part of it. Her siblings come to her and said, βYou donβt know how good you have.β
Warwick F:
Youβve got it so good. Youβre sort of β¦
Marvin C:
Right, but like you said, she has a relationship. Weβve sent her to a Christian private school, and we tell her, we do not hide from it. This is where we came from, this is what we do. Our communication level is so open. She has a group of friends that sheβs closely connected to. I look at what Iβve learned from her and her being raised in that environment. Yes, I do see the impact that I could have on my youngest childβs life for generations.
Warwick F:
What I love about what you said, Iβm sure this is part of what you do in DADS is like change, obviously from your perspective, or from mine, have a focus in faith, Christ-centeredness, but at age appropriate levels, donβt hide who you were. Donβt hide the pain because again, my case is very different, but my dad was married three times, my mother, twice. Fortunately, I was from the last marriage of each, but Iβve seen the devastation that divorce can have, even in wealthy affluent families. In some cases, maybe lack of parents being around, lack of love, nannies raising kids, which is not very healthy.
Warwick F:
I was sort of paranoid a bit about divorce. I was very careful. I wanted to make sure my wife, who weβve been fortunately married over 30 years to have somebody of character who loved the Lord. Iβve told that to my kids. You got to be careful. Make sure from my perspective that your wife or husband has a strong faith and character. Well, I donβt hide from my kids. You donβt want to be like my dad or mom in the sense of all the marriage. You donβt want to be like that. At age appropriate levels, the challenges weβve been through can help our kids, help our grandkids. Does that make sense?
Marvin C:
Yes. It makes a lot of sense. Iβm sharing with you that my son who now has his two children is not married, but he has a young lady friend, and theyβve agreed to parent these two children. I had to go to her job, my wife and I, and tell her how much we appreciate her. She said to me, Iβll never forget this. She said, βAnytime a guy friend that Iβve been with parents shows up, itβs usually to tell me to leave their son alone.β
Warwick F:
Interesting.
Marvin C:
I said, βNo, thatβs the least of my worry. I want you to know that weβre here to support you because just to be with him and be willing to take on this responsibility, we know itβs not an easy one.β I really wanted to tell her, I wish you guys would get married, but I felt like I was way out of place with saying that, but thatβs my prayer. Thatβs my prayer. If youβre willing to put that time and energy in, then thatβs warranted. I see something taking place in the lives of these two grandchildren.
Warwick F:
Itβs amazing, the power of unconditional love and support, instead of like I donβt know, a spring in a dry land. If a plant gets a little bit of unconditional love, itβs like they can change people. Thatβs what you do with the guys you work with and the girlfriends, wives of the guys you work with. I mean, it has an impact. Iβm sure you see that.
Marvin C:
Yes, it does. Warwick, weβve seen over pretty close to 5,000 men in the last 20 years that weβve been in existence. It has a major impact on the lives of the children that are connected to these families.
Gary S:
That is a term, a perspective that we talk a lot about, Marvin, at Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible, the idea of the legacy that you leave and certainly your life of significance, your legacy is in the lives of those 5,000 men. As we get to the point now where weβre going to bring the plane in for a landing, I wanted to have you unpack a quote that Iβve seen you give, because weβve been talking a lot about β¦ Youβve talked a lot about your personal experience with struggling with your own fatherhood and then embracing your fatherhood.
Gary S:
Weβve talked about the way youβve helped other men do that. Warwick talked a little bit about his situation, but backing up to a 30,000 foot level, you said something, and I want you to explain this to our listeners. You said that fatherlessness is like aids to society. Explain what you mean by that, because I think itβs a powerful metaphor for what the lack of involved fathers does in society.
Marvin C:
Iβll talk about the disease and then Iβll talk about the cure. Iβve often said that fatherlessness is like the AIDS virus. If you know anything about AIDS, AIDS doesnβt kill you. What it does, it breaks down your immune system, and the infection that you catch is what kills you. Well, fatherlessness is the same way. If you take a father out of the home, the family doesnβt die, but what it does is open the family up for infection, teenage pregnancy, at risk youth behavior, all of those things that has impacted the society in which we live in.
Marvin C:
What we believe in DADS is, one of the cures is, how do we reengage the father back into the lives of the children? And in some cases, maybe even the family, but I think that what we try to do is draw the attention to the father, how important his life is to the children that heβs fathered. I think that thereβs not enough understanding for men to understand the value that they are to their children. Number one is, and Iβm guilty of this, and most people in the world are, is we never listen to children.
Marvin C:
My wife showed me a prime example one day in our office. There was this father and this mother who had a five-year-old son, and my wife had the mother in her office, and I had the father in my office, and the child kept running back, saying, βMommy, look at this. Mommy, look at this.β Then heβd run to the dad in my office and say, βDaddy, look at this, look at this.β That child showed the mother and the father, what Jeanette and I are pointing it out, the importance that both of them were to him. A lot of times when adults make those decisions, they donβt look at the importance of the father and the mother to that childβs life.
Marvin C:
They only see their own importance. Thatβs how I think if we can get people to understand the importance that both of them are to that childβs life, it could change the matter.
Warwick F:
Wow. Thatβs wonderful as we kind of begin to sum up here. I mean, a lot of people Iβm sure in the Seattle Area and beyond look at what you do with DADS, Divine Alternative for Dads Services and say, well, Marvin, this is like a miracle. Youβre changing families lives, fathers lives. Wow. I mean, how do you do it? Obviously, the Lord has his hand on everything you do, but what would you say, in summary, is some of the keys of why what you do makes such a massive difference?
Marvin C:
Thereβs a scripture that I came upon in my early days of recovery. This preacher, when I wasnβt familiar with the Bible, where to go, he said, βJust go to Psalms 119 and read that every day.β Thatβs 175 verses that I read every day, and I read them. Well, then there was two that jumped out at me that I think described it to the T for me. Psalms 119, the 67th verse says, βBefore I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I obey your word.β I could see myself in that scripture, going astray. Then, a couple of verses down from that is the 71st verse, and the 71st verse says, βIt was good for me that I was afflicted, or I might not have sought your way.β
Marvin C:
I said, thatβs me all the way. That is me. I want folks to know that I believe that I could never get right enough with Christ to where I could make a difference in anybodyβs life. But when he pointed me to those scriptures, I realized that the ground was level at the foot of the cross, and I had just as much of an opportunity as anybody else and I use those scriptures to let people know that you have the same opportunity. Itβs about what you want to do though. You canβt blame that on anybody else. You have to make a choice. Nobody could stop you. Thatβs been the meat of my sermon.
Gary S:
I have been involved in the communications business long enough, and Iβve been a Christian long enough to know when the last word in a conversation is spoken, and you just spoke it, Marvin. Before we go, though, before I close, I want to give you the chance so our listeners can know more about DADS. How can they find DADS on the internet? Where can they go to learn more about your organization?
Marvin C:
Our web address is www.aboutdads.org. Again, thatβs www.aboutdads.org.
Gary S:
Excellent. Warwick, any final thoughts before I close?
Warwick F:
Well, only itβs just remarkable what I hear, Marvin, talk about the work youβre doing with dads. You do all the practical things, which are really necessary in terms of helping dads get clean who have substance abuse issues, housing, negotiating with the whole child welfare system, but nobody changes without a reason. You give them a reason, a faith underpinning from your perspective and mine, a faith in Christ. You help them realize that they are fathers, and that has a spiritual eternal significance, legacy significance. You give them a reason to change.
Warwick F:
Nobody changes without a reason, and itβs even then itβs hard. It seems that the spiritual anchor, the underpinning is transforming lives. As you say, whatβs exciting, itβs transforming lives of maybe grandkids, great, great-grandkids they might never know, but they will hear the stories of lives being changed and their great, great grandfather, or whoever it was, led the start of a shift in their family. I mean, thatβs an amazing vision, amazing legacy that you have in so many peopleβs lives.
Marvin C:
Well, thank you.
Gary S:
That ding that you heard, listener, is the captain turning on the landing gears, that sign that says itβs time to land. So, weβre landing the plane at this moment. As I like to do at the end of episode, sometimes Iβll pull some key takeaways, three key takeaways. There was one moment here. Iβm just going to go with one key takeaway from our conversation with Marvin Charles, and there was something that Marvin said when he was talking about going through his crucible and how he, on the other side of that crucible, he and his wife took what they learned going through their crucible and applied it to help others.
Gary S:
He used this phrase about β¦ They had a victory. They had a victory over their own crucible, and from that, theyβve applied it to the creation of DADS. I think the takeaway on that point is your victory, regardless of what your crucible is, your victory in overcoming your crucible can be and often is the jumping off point for your life of significance. The lessons you learned and applied, and the actions youβve taken in moving beyond the failure, setbacks, and missteps of your life can be offered to help others to do the same thing with their failures, their setbacks and their missteps.
Gary S:
Out of your pain can be birthed your purpose. Thatβs what weβve just talked about for the last hour with Marvin Charles. Until we are together next time, listener, thank you for spending time with us. Warwick and I have a little favor to ask you. On the app that youβre listening to this podcast right now, weβd ask that youβd click subscribe. That will ensure that youβll never miss an episode and it will also ensure that weβre able to get really, truly, we hope hopeful and helpful content like our conversation with Marvin into the smartphones and the computer desktops of more people.
Gary S:
Again, until the next time that we are together, please remember that your crucible experience is painful. We know that. All three of us have been through crucibles of our own, but hereβs the good news, that crucible experience that youβre going through, or maybe youβre starting to come out of is not the end of your story. In fact, as it was for Marvin, it can be the beginning of an entirely new story, an entirely more fulfilling story, an entirely life-changing story for you and for others, because where that story takes you, as you begin to write it, as you learn the lessons of your crucible and walk through them, that journey can take you to a totally different destination. That is a life of significance.
Itβs no secret we live in a divided world, especially in the U.S. But disagreeing over issues and how best to solve the crucibles we face in our world and communities does not mean those who think differently than us are the enemy or evil. BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host and Crucible Leadership founder Warwick Fairfax explains the danger in demonizing βthe other sideβ from the comfort of our own echo chambers, and the breakthroughs that can occur if we refuse to judge and commit to listen to and understand the views of those with whom we disagree. Seeking unity, he explains, creates opportunities and growth in our pursuit of lives of significance.
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π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. Iβm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. Donβt assume you know other peopleβs motives and whatβs in their heart. Itβs one thing to say, βI disagree with a policy.β Like, you might say, βI think that elementary schools in my state should be opened sooner than the government or other people saying theyβre open.β They can meet legitimate policy disagreement, legitimate healthcare disagreement. But donβt assume the other sideβs evil or wrong, thatβs just dangerous when we get into these sorts of policy disagreements.
Gary S:
Evil is far too big a word, far too big a word to be used with such little discretion. Itβs a very big word and it does, as you pointed out, it applies to certain things for sure, but most of the time when we have disagreements with someone over the kinds of issues that youβve talked about, and weβll continue to talk about here, itβs not evil that weβre talking about itβs disagreement. Weβve become, in some cases, so either entrenched or so kind of stickumed to our viewpoints that when someone comes along with a different viewpoint, itβs easy to characterize them, itβs too easy sometimes to characterize them as evil and that has real world ramifications.
Gary S:
Indeed, it does. Hi, Iβm Gary Schneeberger, the co host of the show, the communications director for Crucible Leadership, and the owner of the voice that just ended that snippet you just heard. That clip comes from a conversation Warwick and I have on this weekβs episode about the dangers of divisiveness, when it extends beyond disagreements over ideology and veers into losing sight of another personβs humanity. Warwick shares several tips about what we can all do to prevent that from happening, from making an intentional effort to push past the comfort zones of our media and relational echo chambers, to seeking first to understand not change the mind of someone with whom we disagree. The benefits of taking these tips to heart and putting them into practice can help you avoid crucibles, get through crucibles that have already occurred, and maybe just maybe find unlikely companions to join you as you pursue your life of significance.
Warwick F:
We live in a divided world where it seems like we can group ourselves into camps and thereβs a tendency to view the other camp, whatever that might be as the enemy, not just that we disagree with them. But theyβre the enemy, theyβre bad people, theyβre misguided and it creates a sense of hostility. I mean, certainly in the US this last year couldnβt have been more divided, politically, there was divisions of race that dates back hundreds of years, systemic racial issues. Itβs really was the capstone in a sense was the assault on the Capitol building, I feel like itβs days ago, it doesnβt feel like it was that long ago.
Warwick F:
We live in Annapolis, Maryland, which is about 30 miles from the Capitol building, itβs not that far away, which was obviously a tragedy lives were lost and thatβs taken division to a level that it should never get to. So there are those issues and even with things like health care, with COVID, everybodyβs concerned, everybody wants to get the vaccine but there are divisions. There are some people who are very careful and donβt leave their homes and taking it very seriously. I have to say we probably are more on the careful end of the spectrum, and some of those people say, βJust listen to Dr. Fauci. Itβs about the science.β Others say, βLook, you guys are being too cautious, we got to live our life.β
Warwick F:
Some people would go out and party which obviously some of us think is not the smartest thing in the world. But then you have divisions over more complex issues like the opening of schools. If you have elementary school kids, itβs been tough just to keep them locked down over the last year. So then you lose a year of education. So some people think kids arenβt as likely to get the COVID-19. So what do you do about school closings? What about restaurant and businesses that may go under because of strict lockdown?
Warwick F:
So even there, itβs easy to say just follow the science and itβs hard to disagree with that. But there are disagreements over science to a degree, there are disagreements over how thatβs applied. So even with something like COVID-19 where you think, well, why would people disagree over that? Itβs like, be sensible, be safe, wait for the vaccine. Well, itβs not that simple. From school closing to businesses to restaurants, thatβs just one small example but itβs, I feel like in some sense you could say that certainly in this country and maybe beyond, people are as divided as theyβve been in decades, maybe since the Vietnam War, I donβt know but there is massive division.
Gary S:
With that division, I mean, itβs nothing new, right? Division over anything is nothing new and you know this if you have a family, or if you have a community, or if you have a business, I mean, we know that thereβs division that occurs. But one of the things that you really wanted to address is this idea that you can disagree, I mean, Iβve heard it expressed as you can disagree without being disagreeable, but itβs the level of animosity that is ginned up by these disagreements. The working title for the blog that youβve written on this subject is, Donβt Assume the Other Side is Evil. I think thatβs where itβs yes, thereβs tension, yes, thereβs disunity but it goes to the point that the other person is not just wrong in our minds, sometimes the other person is evil and that really degrades relationship and community.
Warwick F:
Thatβs very true, and I want to just be clear here, Iβm not saying that evil doesnβt exist in the world, I prefer not to try to call people evil because that means examining somebodyβs soul and claiming whatβs in their heart. I think from my faith based perspective, only God knows whatβs in our hearts. But I think we can objectively look at actions and say those actions are evil acts. So whether itβs somebody like Stalin or Adolf Hitler in World War Two and three million Jews being killed, those are clearly evil acts. So it is possible to say that certain acts are reprehensible. Assaulting the Capitol, people dying, yes, can be correct to say thatβs reprehensible.
Warwick F:
So while there is evil in the world, there are evil acts, I think itβs dangerous to accuse people who disagree with you as being βevil.β So labels get hurled around in our dialogue, people are called Nazis, fascists, socialists. I mean, those are dangerous terms. I mean, Nazis probably maybe one of those dangerous terms you can use that should not be used lightly and can be seen to minimize what happened in World War Two. So I mean, there is evil, but donβt always assume the other sideβs evil be wary of using motives. We will get to this more in terms of some thoughts and pointers, but just donβt assume you know other peopleβs motives and whatβs in their heart.
Warwick F:
Itβs one thing to say I disagree with a policy. Like you might say, βI think that elementary schools in my state should be open sooner than the government or other people saying theyβre open.β They can be legitimate policy disagreement, legitimate health care disagreement. But donβt assume the other sideβs evil or wrong. Thatβs just dangerous when we get into these sorts of policy disagreements.
Gary S:
Evil is far too big a word far too big a word to be used with such little discretion. Itβs a very big word, and it does, as you pointed out, it applies to certain things for sure, but most of the time when we have disagreements with someone over the kinds of issues that youβve talked about, and weβll continue to talk about here, itβs not evil that weβre talking about itβs disagreement. Weβve become, in some cases, so either entrenched or so kind of stickomed to our viewpoints that when someone comes along with a different viewpoint, itβs easy to characterize them, itβs too easy sometimes to characterize them as evil, and that has real world ramifications.
Gary S:
One of the things that you tried to unpack, and you do an excellent job of unpacking in the blog, which will be out if not by the time this airs, will be out soon thereafter and you can find that blog at crucibleleadership.com. One of the things you tried to do is not only explain how this comes about, what the challenges before us, but how to sort of how to meet that challenge and rise above that denigrating language, that disparaging language, that dangerous if you will, language of thinking of disagreements with yourself as evil.
Warwick F:
Absolutely true. I think one of the images that came in my mind of that you can have a forest like in California or in Australia, kind of earlier in the year. Itβs funny, pre COVID there were bushfires down the east coast of Australia that were as bad as theyβve ever been, and that seemed to be the cataclysm of 2020. Well, who knew that a short while later that it wasnβt the cataclysm, we were entering COVID. But thereβs a number of accelerants, if you will, that are causing these fires to be worse. Certainly in our political system, there are political action committees on the left and right and they have a vested interest in saying the other side is evil. Saying if the other side wins control of Senate, Presidency, Congress, whatever the issue is, the worldβs going to end. They raise money, because you donβt raise money by saying, βWell, I think the other side has good points.β So our proposition is to find some harmony in the middle. Well, that just doesnβt do it for people, people often motivated out of anger and rage.
Gary S:
And fear.
Warwick F:
And fear. Absolutely. I mean, what do the political consultants say? The best ads are ones that are negative ads and appeal to peopleβs fear, because studies show it works.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Therefore, positive ads may be uplifting, but donβt tend to work as much. Very sad to say, and then the other accelerant, if you will, is social media. Now, in the Vietnam War era, and gosh, I think probably it was only more in the early 2000s that social media began to take off from Facebook, Twitter, all these different mediums and social media. There are things you say on social media that you would never say to somebody to their face, or about somebody you donβt know. So the combination of money in politics, fueling division, profiting over division and social media, it makes the underlying tendency for people to stay in their people groups and only associate with people they know. Itβs an accelerant, it makes it so much worse, those factors of money and politics and social media.
Gary S:
As we begin to segue into talking about actions we can take, things we can do to drop the rhetoric down and to avoid even the thought, the impulse of thinking that someoneβs evil because they disagree with us. Itβs important to sort of frame this up in the context of crucible leadership, in the context of crucibles. One of the things that can be an accelerant that is just circumstantial is a crucible moment, what weβre talking about, about the pandemic and the views of the pandemic that people have.
Gary S:
Thatβs a crucible, Iβve heard it described as a collective crucible that we go through, when weβre going through hard times, when weβre going through setbacks and failures and those kinds of things we are raw, and we can on social media, in relationships, lash out and think, not just the worst of someone who disagrees with us but we can think, the really absolute worst, theyβre evil, thereβs something innately not good about who they are. Itβs not just a difference of opinion, itβs almost a difference in humanity, we dismiss them as not having humanity or not having the right to have their humanity acknowledged. I think in crucible moments, those situations become even more potentially incendiary.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I think thatβs so true. I mean, if youβve been fired by a boss or your company, sometimes youβll think, well, maybe I had a role in that, often, youβll be thinking, well, my boss is terrible, and awful. Thereβs a tendency to think when bad things happen to you that youβre sort of pure as driven snow, if you will, and the other sideβs evil. Because accepting responsibility or that there could be issues that both of you have, I mean, that is human nature and probably the other side of it. Beyond that is, we all tend to be in different people groups. It could be where you grew up, it could be ethnic, it could be country, it could be cultural, urban versus rural.
Warwick F:
Itβs easy to take on the views and philosophy of what other people group you are from, which is understandable. But then whatβs not so good is assuming that people who are different than you whether itβs political viewpoint race or what have you is somehow wrong or somehow bad, there is this natural tendency, human tendency to congregate in people groups, and listen to those people groups and assuming the other people groups is somehow wrong or even worse than wrong.
Gary S:
Right. Self interest is not always in the public interest, if itβs taken to an extreme self interest. We are a pluralistic society, we are people with lots of different opinions and that is as good of a place to sort of segue, Warwick into the points that youβve developed on just how to build unity in the midst of these diverse viewpoints and diverse people groups that we all live among, and that we havenβt as a collective been doing a very good job of in the last six months, 10 months, 12 months. Weβve got some work to do in this area for sure.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, and really the first point is what weβve been talking about is, donβt assume the other side is wrong. When I say the other side, what does that mean? Well think of your own life. What people group do you think that youβre in? It could be racial, ethnic, it could be, βWell, I think of myself as an engineer and Iβm not one of these creative folks who continually want to re-engineer everything and make my life miserable at work.β I mean, whatever people group is relevant to you and really, the question is in my mind, in which group that youβre in? Often you could be in a nationality group, an ethnic group, a profession group, a sporting group.
Warwick F:
Thereβs all sorts of groups, multiple groups that we self identify with. Which one of those do you have the most angst in? Some groups, itβs not really a big deal. Some people get really hot and bothered about sports, others like sports but the worldβs not going to end if their team loses.
Gary S:
Well, I donβt know, I feel sometimes like my worldβs going to end if my Cubs or Packers lose, but thatβs a different podcast.
Warwick F:
Well, Iβm with you. As Australian, Iβm a huge cricket fan. Australians care about cricket the way Canadians care about hockey. So itβs easy to get too emotionally involved in sports, which would be another podcast.
Gary S:
Indeed.
Warwick F:
So Iβm with you. But whatever that is, whatever the other side means for you, which depends on which people group you feel that youβre in that you have the most angst about, donβt assume that theyβre wrong or evil or wrong headed. So that really is the launching point of really the first key point is, try to understand the other side. First step is donβt assume theyβre wrong and evil. Okay, so having made that leap of faith, innocent until proven guilty, then kind of the next step is well, try to understand them. Where this is hard is that we live in a not only divided society, but a divided media society.
Warwick F:
So people increasingly tend to watch their news channel or read their online news of choice that agrees with their opinion. It could be political, it could be social, and that just increases your internal rage. The other side is awful, well, I read it online. I watch my news channel. They agree with me. Well, how about watching another news channel even if you disagree with it, or read another online source, another media outlet and just get perspectives from the other side. Even if you donβt agree with it. Itβs like, βWell, I disagree with 70% of it, but 30% of what they said they actually have a point which I hadnβt considered.β So thatβs one thing is trying to understand the other side and one initial way is just by viewing media and getting input from different sources, different books. I mean, we have a lot of information in our fingertips, utilize that opportunity.
Gary S:
Absolutely. Echo chambers are dangerous places to live. Theyβre not just to hear reinforcements of what you believe all the time, it doesnβt challenge you and it goes against the grain of what we talk about at crucible leadership all the time. What do we say in crucible leadership? Youβve been through a crucible, the key to moving beyond your crucibleβs to learn the lessons of your crucible. Slow down stop, what was my fault? What is trying to be taught me in this experience? How can I learn from this experience?
Gary S:
Similar thing can play out when you hear things that you donβt agree with, if youβre only consuming that which you agree with, youβre not being challenged to overcome your feelings about the other side, I wrote Warwick an op-ed a little over a year ago for a publication, and this is one of the things I said. I just want to read this because it goes in great line with what youβve just said in the last couple of points. I wrote this. Itβs only in seeing the βother guyβ as just as deserving as we are of respect and an opinion and the right to advocate for his or her position that we can ever hope to find our way to civility in public discourse. The immediate and ongoing demonization of those who think differently than we do, whose values donβt align with our own may make for boffo ratings but it does nothing to help us persuade others to the course of action we believe to be right. Worse, it degrades the greatest and freest country in the world.
Warwick F:
I mean, thatβs so true. Itβs funny, I was just thinking about this this morning. I can think of a figure from history, Winston Churchill, that nobody could accuse him of not having strong opinions. He had very strong opinions.
Gary S:
Yes.
Warwick F:
And was one of the most eloquent advocates of his opinions in the English speaking world. His speeches are as good as any. I mean, Lincoln was up there, but you think of Lincoln, Churchill, their ability to express themselves in a way that was compelling was almost unprecedented. But yet, he obviously in the 1930s is railing against pacifism and saying, βWe need to wake up to Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany and we need to rearm.β Everybody thought he was silly old Winston and warmonger and just ignoring him. But yet, he never took disagreements personally.
Warwick F:
So later when he was prime minister, there was I can think of three different people that he was very magnanimous, with. Stanley Baldwin, a former prime minister in the β30s of Britain, Neville Chamberlain, who famously said, βIβve met Mr. Hitler and we will have peace in our time.β Which, one of the colossally terrible statements.
Gary S:
Heβs waving his piece of paper, I can still see him in the newsreels, right? Waving his peace of paper.
Warwick F:
Exactly needed a good PR guy or somebody to say, βDonβt say that. Are you really sur?β But you know, he would try to help them where he could, meet with them. He didnβt hold it personally and later in the supreme ignominy if you will, when he lost the 45 election against Clement Attlee from the Labour Party who was advocating national health care, prosperity, people are tired of war, and I get why people would have voted for him. People said, βOh, Attlee, what a terrible person he is to Churchill.β He said, βLook, I may disagree with his policies, but heβs our prime minister, how you dare you speak to him that way.β
Warwick F:
So here was a classic case of a man with unbelievably strong opinions but he didnβt hold it personally, he didnβt talk about his adversaries at least politically as evil and was magnanimous and charitable to them personally, thatβs really rare. So thatβs really, I think, a model of donβt impugn other peopleβs motives.
Gary S:
Right, and the idea, so the first two points that weβve kind of talked about here about how do you not treat those who disagree with you as evil, the first is kind of widening, right? Itβs opening up the spectrum of our inputs. Donβt assume theyβre evil and then, as you take in information, donβt live in an echo chamber, weβre all on social media or in news media, youβre only consuming those people who affirm your beliefs, have people who will challenge those beliefs. The third point that you talk about, Warwick is so important in interpersonal relationships in particular, and that is the need to listen, which is a critical part, I note of, in fact, itβs a chapter in your book, Crucible Leadership coming out in the fall from Morgan James Publishing.
Warwick F:
Indeed.
Gary S:
Thereβs a chapter on listening, itβs a key part of overcoming a crucible and itβs a key part of overcoming this impulse that we have sometimes to think of people who disagree with us as evil.
Warwick F:
Itβs very true. I mean, it obviously it starts with not impugning other peopleβs motives, it helps if you can read stuff online or on TV, view things on TV from people with different perspectives than you. But I think itβs inevitable in our day and age, weβre going to come across actually real live humans that disagree with us, because we live in a diverse world of diverse opinion, diverse people groups. So thatβs where I think itβs very helpful to actually listen, to really listen to people, try to understand their life experience, their heritage, their background.
Warwick F:
We all have different viewpoints for a reason. I can think of the whole, I think I briefly mentioned it earlier. The whole urban, rural kind of background. If you grow up in the US in a more rural area, you might be a proponent of you have friends and neighbors that will help you but ultimately, youβre responsible for your own life, your own job, your own livelihood, the so called kind of rugged individualism because itβs all about everybody pulling themselves up from the bootstraps, we donβt need government. The whole philosophy goes with that.
Warwick F:
Or there can be more of an urban city viewpoint in which thereβs often been systemic racial issues and challenges. I mean, obviously that exists in all areas. But there can be a viewpoint where governmentβs not necessarily bad or evil, and there there to try to promote equality, and inclusion and fairness and people who are impoverished need to be helped. So those are fundamentally different viewpoints. But objectively, maybe thereβs some elements of truth in both. So rather than just say, βOh, people who have this other viewpoint than me are wrong and evil.β How about listening to them? If youβre from more of a rural area and you meet somebody more from an urban area, so we vote politically very differently help me understand your perspective. Why do you vote the way you do? Why do you have a perspective on the role of government? Which may be fundamentally different than me, help me understand. And thatβs just almost never happens.
Warwick F:
If you approach a dialogue with respect and humility, itβs funny, some of the other things Iβve been thinking about is there are some underlying characteristics in the sense of character qualities that are important. If you approach this dialogue with somebody who looks different, thinks different, acts different, believes different from a standpoint of humility, a standpoint of empathy, vulnerability. Help me understand if you say, well, help me understand because I know youβre an idiot, itβs not going to be very effective. If you say, help me understand and they really believe you do and keep trying they might say, βYouβre so different than me, thereβs no way you want to understand my perspective or my history.β Which there might be issues that go back hundreds of years or more.
Warwick F:
If you approach it with humility and empathy real dialogue can happen but it requires a certain soul care, soul examination to be able to approach things with humility rather than with anger and self vindication or vindictiveness. So thereβs heart work that has to go first.
Gary S:
Because the end goal of that conversation needs to be, what can I understand? Not how can I hammer the other person with my beliefs. Itβs, weβve lost I think in some great sense what argument is truly all about and that is to try to persuade another person. When weβre talking to someone, a true argument like a rhetorical argument, like a forensics debate is youβre trying to convince people, and weβve lost that sense, I think, where we want to make clear what we believe but not listen to what someone else believes. I think one of the key things to do in these conversations, and you summed it up well, we need to lay our ideology down long enough to get to know the other personβs humanity. Because from that, we can learn some things and learning some things is again, from a crucible leadership perspective, learning, listening are not just good things, theyβre essential things to move beyond those moments that can be the most trying of our lives.
Warwick F:
I mean, I can think of an example in my own life that I talk about in the book, as you mentioned coming out this fall, where listening, that whole chapter really was birthed in that life experience in which as listeners know, I grew up in this very large hundred and fifty year old family media business with papers the equivalent of the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, TV, radio stations, I was the fifth generation. Turmoil and division in my family going back generations. So in 1976, when I was 15, some of the other family members threw my dad out as chairman of the company.
Warwick F:
Well, I felt that was wrong, unconscionable, It was very clear to me who was right, who was wrong. My dad was I loved very much, was a righteous person who was persecuted unfairly. So that was my position and not consciously but subconsciously what led up to the $2.25 billion takeover 11 years later in β87 wasnβt conscious, was look what these people did to my father, we need to bring back the company in the ideals of the founder and managementβs not good. I had this whole perspective and I never really dialogued with other members of my family, obviously at 15 thatβs a bit, a lot to expect.
Warwick F:
When I was 26, coming back from Harvard Business School, I mean, still young but I was so convinced by my parentsβ perspective and their version of history, that I knew who was the good guys and the bad guys, who was right, who was wrong and there was never any dialogue with other family members to say, βLook, this is what Iβve heard my perspective, Iβd love to hear what your perspective of why you removed my dad as chairman and what your views of the company and the future.β I never did that. Now Iβm thinking, I still donβt think it was right that they threw my dad out as chairman, maybe there was another way of doing it. But I never really took the time to understand the other perspective. So yeah, I mean, Iβve thought a lot about that, of not making assumptions about somebody elseβs viewpoint.
Gary S:
Yeah, that leads to the next two points, I think, to discuss on steps we can take to create a more civil community in both our small C community and large C community that you talk about, and you hit on both of them with that example. One is donβt impugn other peopleβs motives, and you just acknowledge that you kind of did that with the people who dismissed your dad as chairman, and then seeking to understand maybe at 15 youβre not emotionally developed enough to try to understand why it was maybe the decision to have your dad removed as chairman, but those two things kind of go hand in hand. Thereβs impugning of other peopleβs motives, thatβs a slippery slope that you can start sliding down that can lead you to say, βThe person who did those things is evil.β Seeking first to understand if you donβt do that, youβre kind of hitting a brick wall and thatβs easy to go, βThat personβs evil.β
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah, not impugning other peopleβs motives, seeking first to understand. Seeking first to understand is a very radical concept. I mean, itβs pretty revolutionary and it really comes from St. Francis of Assisi, who said, in his Prayer of St. Francis, βThat we should seek more to understand then be understood.β Now, in some cases, you could say, βLook, thatβs crazy. Thereβs been some cases systemic persecution for hundreds of years. Are you kidding me?β So, I would say, this is a general philosophy, and how you apply it individually one could debate.
Warwick F:
But the basic concept is, we tend to go into a discussion, if we ever get there, which we typically donβt, because we stay in our echo chamber and read our own media. So we donβt even get into a middle ground where we can have a dialogue, if we do where theyβre haranguing other people for how theyβre wrong and evil and weβre right, weβre yelling at each other. So if we get to human contact with others itβs often yelling and trying to prove weβre right.
Warwick F:
So letβs say you happen to get in some ground with other people who are different than you or think differently, just rather than to say, which is easy to say, βLook, the first thing we need to do is you need to understand me, I need to be understood, because unless Iβm understood I refuse to listen to you.β You often hear that in our society, and in some cases maybe thereβs fair reason for that. But as a general rule, the bigger man, the bigger woman, the person who has maybe more courage, if you will, more humility takes a very radical approach in saying, βLook, Iβm pretty angry about a bunch of things but I am going to park that at the door and Iβm going to start with, so look, I know we have different viewpoints, Iβd love first to understand why you have that viewpoint? Where does it come from?β Talk about your background, is it parents, society, friends and neighbors, help me understand not just your perspective, but why you have that perspective and why thatβs maybe part of your heart, identity. You donβt have to use all those words, but start with trying to understand the other person first. That is radical, and they might be kind of blown away.
Warwick F:
Itβs like, excuse me, you donβt want yell at me, you donβt want to give me your three best points of why your argument is true. Who are my favorite commentators, really starting with that one. Youβre starting with, help me understand, and you got to do it with humility. It canβt be some manipulative game because people will pick that up. That is almost unprecedented and unheard of, itβs radical and revolutionary to do what St. Francis advocates.
Gary S:
I donβt know if this will embarrass you or what it will do. But one of the things Iβve heard you say more than pretty much anything else is when you describe yourself that you interact with people with questions. You have said on more than one occasion, youβve said Warwick that someone will say to you after a meeting, βWell, those are really insightful points that you made Warwick.β And then youβll think what?
Warwick F:
Iβll say, I donβt know what youβre talking about I was just asking questions.
Gary S:
Right. I mean, the idea of asking questions that is rarer. I mean, go to social media, we donβt ask any questions on social media, social media is a one way street. I think this, I think this, I think this, I think this, I think this, I think this, and then if we deviate off to a side road, or an off ramp, itβs, and youβre wrong if you donβt think this. Whereas what youβre saying is think in questions, look to understand the other person, find out why they believe that way and I would argue, if you believe the other person, whoever that is, βthe other sideβ the other person is evil thatβs one of the reasons why we donβt want to find out what they think because we donβt think itβs worth understanding. Back off of thinking that theyβre evil, that opens you up to wanting to understand what they have to say because they have the same humanity that you have.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, it helps to be curious. I like to think Iβm a curious person that loves to learn, and I have strong opinions about a whole bunch of things. I typically prefer not to harangue people with my opinions, and maybe in my own home where weβre chatting about things over the dinner table. Thatβs different. But everybody does that. Thatβs fair game. Anybody can feel free to express their opinions. But I mean, Iβm naturally curious and I think to develop as a human being, it helps to understand perspectives of people who are different than us and think differently, because it makes us richer, richer people, we learn more.
Warwick F:
So I think, and thatβs a high value of me is, I think Iβve heard somebody talk about in one of the podcasts we had on talked about intentional curiosity. I love that phrase, because I think we do need to be intentionally curious the world would be a better place if we were more intentionally curious.
Gary S:
That is a great on ramp to the final part of our conversation, and that is, what are the benefits? Okay, weβve talked about, hereβs the situation weβre in, it is rife with division. Weβve talked about ways that we individually can help move beyond that division, we can take that crucible that we all find ourselves in with a division in our communities in our country, how we can apply some lessons, how we can apply some tactics, do some things to help tamp down the division. Now comes whatβs the benefit of that? Why try to do that? What is the upshot? How does that make us a better place?
Warwick F:
I really think that unity creates opportunity, and you have to have immense courage in our day and age, want to go for unity. Certainly in the political world that we live in is a very good example of the cost of unity. The cost of compromise is massive and very rarely happens. In this country and in others certainly here. If you talk to somebody on the other side of the aisle politically, and try to form a compromise, you will be seen as a sell out by your party. Youβve got a very high probability of being primaried, and depending on how safe a seat is for your side, that primary probably has a really fair chance of winning. So you try and compromise your political career has a good chance of being threatened if not over and you will be assailed in the negative advertising by the purists on your side.
Warwick F:
So the cost of trying to be unity is quite likely to be your job, well, thatβs that takes a lot of courage. Now sometimes maybe the better angels in your district might say, look I disagree with my congressman or woman, but you know what? I respect the fact that they stick to their principles. It can work, but I donβt pretend itβs an easy sell. So thatβs sort of one example. But thereβs so many things in life that if we try to just understand the other side, like I think of one example, I think in the northwest area of the US, Oregon, Washington State thereβs a big logging industry and you often have groups, environmental groups that want to protect the climate, which is a noble cause and protect the beautiful forests that are there. Then you have companies and folks that work in the logging industry that say, βThatβs great, but my livelihood depends on being able to cut trees down. So youβre putting me out of work, I donβt have food to put on my familyβs table, to pay the rent.β
Warwick F:
Well, itβs also important to try to not put people out because people matter too. So the question is, can you come up with a middle ground in which you both protect peopleβs jobs, but somehow protect the environment too? Those sides are not necessarily evil or wrong, both sides have reasonable opinions. So itβs too easy to get into this us or them. Thatβs one good example where you just trying, so okay, the other side is not evil, respect their opinion. Itβs not easy to square circles I realize that, but people of goodwill can sometimes find compromises that may not be perfect, each side will have to give. But really, without some degree of unity, you get in this endless shouting match, which typically, nothing gets done and nobody gets helped and thatβs typically what happens in politics in many countries, is all these things that everybody knows needs to be fixed but because weβre too entrenched in our camps, stuff doesnβt get done, whether itβs healthcare, the economy, what have you.
Warwick F:
So, there can be growth, there can be opportunity if you try to seek honorable compromise. Honorable compromise doesnβt mean selling out, it means understanding the other sideβs perspective and maybe one and one can equal three. It can be in politics, it could be in business. You can have people that say, βWell, this is the way weβve always done it in this company.β The younger entrepreneurial folks are like, βNo, but we want to make this great change.β Well, maybe you can preserve the identity, the ethos of the company, while still using new technology and maybe thereβs a middle ground. I mean, this sense of division isnβt just politics, itβs in business, itβs in society, itβs in a neighborhood, itβs everywhere. Try to understand the other perspective.
Gary S:
One of the goals I say all the time when you have disagreements on even substantive issues and approaches to those issues, is there a patch of grass that we both can stand on where weβre able to work toward a common good solution? The example that comes to my mind when I think of that, is there a patch of grass that we can stand on is the first President Bush, George H. W. Bush, and President Clinton. Now, when President Clinton beat President Bush, there was no love lost, there was no love lost between them.
Gary S:
President Bush was not happy to be a one term president, but years later, when President Bushβs son George W. Bush was president, there was a situation that came up where he brought together his father and President Clinton and they worked on some missions together for the good of the country and in doing so they didnβt just accomplish things that were good for the country, they became friends to the point that people would suggest President Bush, the elder, would suggest that he might have been in many ways the father that President Clinton lacked growing up, and President Clinton never corrected him on that. That is an amazing example of finding a patch of grass to stand on, that first leads to good policy decisions, first leads to good things for the community and the country, and then leads to friendship.
Warwick F:
Yeah, Gary, that is an absolutely excellent example. It really, both men are respected, both former presidents are respected for that. I mean, just to help listeners remember in β92 when the first president George H. W. Bush lost, that was sort of amazing because he, by most historians account handled the first Gulf War well, he united NATO and a bunch of countries against what Saddam Hussein did in invading Kuwait. Well, at one point, he had like 80%, 90% approval. I mean, it was off the charts, but then maybe some economic issues, his approval rating fell, and then he had a third party candidate and Ross Perot that siphoned off about 15%.
Warwick F:
So if it hadnβt been for Ross Perot, thereβs a pretty good chance Bush would have won. So Bush could have felt maybe justifiably, this isnβt fair, I did a good job and I am one term president, which as we know, nobody wants to be one term president and hereβs this Bill Clinton, Governor of Arkansas, I mean, okay, Rhodes scholar, Oxford smart guy, but he could have felt very miffed and could have taken it very personally. As you say, when George W. Bush, President H. W. Bushβs son called them to do some relief work, I think it was after the tsunami in Indonesia.
Gary S:
Right. Right.
Warwick F:
They became friends almost like, I think Bill Clinton would joke, yeah, Iβm sort of a son by another mother or black sheep of the family.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
He joked he was invited to the Bush compound in Kennebunkport, Maine and they became friends, which is remarkable that that would happen given that President George H. W. Bush, he minded greatly losing, it wasnβt a small thing and this is the guy that beat him. Itβs an incredible example of just donβt take it personally and they found ways to work together for things they both thought were important.
Gary S:
They could not have done that, letβs be clear in the context of what weβve been discussing, they could not have done that. President Bush, H. W. Bush, Republican, President Clinton, Democrat, very different ideologies, they could not have done that if their ideologies led them to believe that the other was evil.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I can think of another example of that nature in my own family. My dad was chairman of Fairfax Media, John Fairfax Limited as then was, I donβt know, maybe 40, 45 years, a long period of time and he was also intellectually curious. He would like to meet with people of different faith perspectives, different political perspectives. So a friend of his was a former prime minister, Bob Hawke, he was a member of the Labor Party. In fact, when they became friends, he was head of the trade unions and Bob Hawke was a brilliant man, Rhodes scholar at Oxford, but certainly in his trade union days was seen as pretty left wing.
Warwick F:
My dad would probably be conservative, I wouldnβt say rabidly so but more on that end of the spectrum. So their political viewpoints couldnβt be more different, but yet they became good friends. Yet, politically, thereβs a lot they didnβt agree with but yet, obviously, they both respected each otherβs intellect. So that to me was remarkable that they could become good friends despite the fact that had very different worldviews.
Gary S:
Yeah, and I have a similar story in my own professional career. I worked for a nonprofit that had an ideological footprint, which it is doesnβt matter and in sort of stepping on with that ideological footprint, I as a PR guy for that that organization got in lots of debates in media with someone who represented another group which had a different ideological viewpoint. You could find me and this individual in stories a lot, arguing with one another across the notebook of the reporter in question. It turns out that the individual for whom I worked was getting an award and an honor and there was going to be a ceremony and the guy with whom I would argue in the press was protesting the honor, and he announced he was protesting the honor.
Gary S:
Well, I was sick of arguing across the notebook with him. So I called him up and I said, βHey, weβre going to be in the same city, do you want to have dinner?β And we had dinner, and we sat down. One of the things that we discovered is that despite our ideology being different, our backgrounds were quite the same. We were both in public relations, we had far more in common to the point that you make in the blog, we had far more in common than we didnβt. The only thing that we really didnβt have in common was our ideology, and that wasnβt the whole sum and substance of who we were.
Gary S:
So fast forward through that experience, we became friends. He lived in New York, when I would go to New York, Iβd stopped by Iβd say hi, we would have conversations to the point, Warwick that when I published my book, on sort of my manifesto on what makes good public relations, this individual endorsed it. He endorsed the book, and said very nice things about me. Heβs a PR guy Iβm a PR guy. He wrote, βIβve had the misfortune of being in PR battles with Gary Schneeberger and let me tell you, itβs no fun because heβs the best there is.β That is the kind of thing that you get when you lay your ideology down and you look at the humanity of someone.
Warwick F:
I mean, can that can you think of an endorsement thatβs better than that? I mean, thatβs the other side saying, I donβt like doing battle with this guy, because heβs too good. Doesnβt feel fair. I mean, you couldnβt have written a better endorsement than that. Right?
Gary S:
Right, and neither one of us to this day have changed our views on the issues that we would have disagreements about in the press, and we had disagreements after we became friends in the press. The point was, he didnβt think I was evil, I didnβt think he was evil and one of the reasons why that was able to happen is we sat down across a dinner table from one another and just talked as two human beings. Finding the humanity is key.
Warwick F:
Thatβs remarkable. I think itβs worth listeners pondering the story that Gary shared. What would have happened if Gary in New York from time to time, if heβd never reached out to this guy and said, βLetβs have dinner.β What would Gary and this other guy have missed out? A lot. They never would have known that they had more in common than they thought that endorsement wouldnβt have happened, obviously, thereβs no way he would have endorsed you without that dinner and without that dialogue, you would have been seen as the enemy. So think of what would have been lost to you and this other person without you taking the remarkable step of saying, βLetβs have dinner.β Right?
Gary S:
Even in that context, I remember coming back to work after I did that, had that first dinner, and one of my colleagues came up to me and asked me if I at dinner said, βDid you talk to him about the chilling effects of these policy proposals that heβs doing?β I still remember what I said, Warwick, I said, βI havenβt thought about it since then.β I still remember what I said to my colleague, I said, βNo, I did not take the time to whack him with my worldview mallet while I was trying to understand his humanity.β
Gary S:
Sometimes, many times, thereβs a time to argue passionately for what you believe and thereβs also a time to lay that worldview mallet down and have a discussion, a dialogue that helps you get to the humanity of someone.
Warwick F:
I think those are words to live by. So listeners, little role reversal. Just listen to what Gary just said, donβt whack people with your worldview mallet while youβre trying to create a relationship with them and understand them. Think of those words, words to live by. So true.
Gary S:
Well, I donβt know what to do now because thatβs normally what I say then we wrap up. Thatβs a good place to kind of put the plane down on the tarmac. If you summed up Warwick this discussion from top to bottom, what do you want listeners to kind of walk away with overall? As weβve talked about, hereβs the situation we face in the country, in our communities right now, hereβs some steps we can take to lessen that, to not think of people as evil. Here are the benefits of not thinking of the other side as evil. Whatβs the summary that you want to leave people with?
Warwick F:
I think people who just stay in their people groups, their ideology group, read own media read, watch their own TV stations, social media, listen to their own people all the time, youβre missing out a lot. Your viewpoints could grow, evolve, more than that your understanding of people who are different than you, think different than you could grow immensely. Well, think about this country, if people tried, had the courage to fight the underlying interests that make money over division, think what would happen with our country, if you had people willing to listen, and work with other people?
Warwick F:
If enough people do it and people can see, boy, some good things are happening, then people will begin to not listen to the negative echo chambers that are out there. It just takes a few people standing together for principled compromise, principled, whatβs that center ground which is good for the country? Itβs not just about the country think about businesses. Very often we surround ourselves with people that look like us to believe that what we do, how about having diversity of background of race, and political viewpoint? Economic, social, every other viewpoint. Respect other peopleβs viewpoints you might disagree passionately, but diversity means diversity in every possible conception of that word. Very few people do that.
Warwick F:
People, certainly when it comes to ideology, they like mixing even in the workplace. Workplaces are not that diversified, certainly in many ways theyβre not diversified enough racially, or background. But theyβre certainly also not very diversified in some cases when it comes to political viewpoint. Thereβs tremendous opportunity for growth. I mean, growth often happens when you have diverse viewpoints, coming together, brainstorming and coming up with ideas and solutions that never could have happened if youβre just talking to people with your own viewpoint.
Gary S:
Now thatβs good, because now the roles are back. Youβve just had the last word and I get to wrap. So thatβs great. Thank you for that, and thank you listener for spending time with us on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. Iβm going to add a little bit to what Warwick just said and I think Warwick will agree with me when I do this, to give you an extension of the homework that he gave you. Donβt whack the other guy with your worldview mallet and in fact, go out, find someone, maybe itβs on social media, find someone in your business, find someone with whom you have deep disagreements, and make it a point to reach out and have a conversation and to truly try to understand them. Ask more questions than you make statements and that can help deflate a crucible that you might be on the edge of creating or maybe youβve already created in terms of relationship. Also it can help knock down, tamp down this divisiveness that we talked about at the top of the show.
Gary S:
So until the next time that we are together, please one, go to crucibleleadership.com to check out Warwickβs blog on this. Please hit subscribe to the podcast on the app on which youβre listening to it right now. Weβd also love it if youβd go and youβd leave a rating. If you enjoy what you hear on Beyond the Crucible, leave a rating what you think about it. Heck, if you donβt enjoy it, you can leave a rating too. But weβd prefer if you did enjoy it, you left a rating but anybody can leave a rating, weβre not saying what kind of rating you have to leave. But if you find these dialogues to be interesting, go leave a rating at a podcast app and let us know how weβre doing. Because at the end of the day, thatβs what we want to know. We want to know how weβre doing so that we can make this an experience that you enjoy.
Gary S:
Remember, until the next time we are together that your crucible experiences are difficult. Theyβre trying and theyβre challenging. They do indeed change the trajectory of your life, but theyβre not the end of your story. They are in every case, they can be the beginning of your story, and they can be the beginning of the best part of your story. Because where they lead when you learn the lessons of them is to a greater destination than you could have imagined before the crucible and that is to a life of significance.
We live in a very divided world. In fact some would say that our times are as divided as they have been in years, even decades. Here in the U.S. we have recently had a divisive election that led those unhappy with the result to storm the Capitol Building in Washington, D.C.
Not only are we divided by politics, we are divided about many if not most of the policy issues and even some health care choices. With COVID 19, some feel that we should wear masks at all times, minimizing contact outside our household. Others, including people who may be younger or believe they are in good health, may not feel they need to be as careful. Each side of the COVID 19 health debate, much like each side of the political divide, can tend to feel like the other side is misguided β even a bit, or a lot, crazy.
And it can get worse. We can tend to believe the other side is not only misguided and crazy, but evil. You read about βthe other side,β depending on your point of view, being βNazisβ or βSocialistsβ or βFascists.β Those are very strong words. In reality, is there evil in the world? Throughout history, there have certainly been people doing deeds which are wrong even evil. Even in our day, it is possible to conclude that reprehensible actions by misguided even morally questionable people have occurred.
But while this may true, it is dangerous, to conclude that just because someone or some group of people may disagree with you that they are βevil.β Not everyone who holds positions different to yours is evil. In fact, itβs likely true that most arenβt. The question is how does it serve you to assume that people who disagree with you or who have different beliefs than you, or look differently to you are evil? Unity and tolerance for people who believe differently and look differently than you will lead to a morally better and more productive society.
Here are some thoughts for trying to build unity amidst diverse viewpoints and diverse people groups:
1. Donβt assume the βother sideβ or the βother peopleβ are evil βeven when you believe they are wrong.
There are times in history and even today where that may be true, but it will not always be true; and it will tend to be true less than we think it is true.
2. Try to understand the other side.
That means talking to them, reading about what that side thinks. Not from commentators who you agree with, but from either neutral commentators or even commentators from their side.
3. Listen, really listen.
When you talk to people from the other side, really try to understand why they think the way they do. Our life experience, our heritage, where we grew up and the people we grew up with significantly shape our perspectives on life. Just to take one example, a rural perspective might stress self-reliance. Yes, you have friends and neighbors and family who may help. But ultimately, in this mindset, each personβs destiny is determined by themselves. Contrast this with more of an urban perspective. Here the challenges and belief systems can be quite different. It is not uncommon in urban areas to have a greater reliance and belief in the role of government to protect the most vulnerable and ensure equity and fairness in society.
4. Donβt impugn other peopleβs motives β and always listen to make sure you attempt to understand those motives.
Try to give the other side the benefit of the doubt. I am sure all of us would like others to treat us like that, innocent until proven guilty. Treat others the way you would like to be treated. Not everyone you disagree with is evil.
5. Seek first to understand.
St. Francis of Assisi in his famous Prayer of St. Francis said that we should seek more to understand than be understood. That seems like quite a radical statement. We often focus our dialogue with others who are different than us by stressing that others need to understand us. That is not wrong, but real dialogue often happens best when we lead with trying to understand the other side, before pivoting to helping others understand us. What you start with matters. Real leaders start with trying to understand the perspectives of those who are different from them first.
6. Unity creates opportunity.
By dialoguing with people who believe differently than you, and look differently than you there is real opportunity. There is power where there is unity amidst diversity.
Unity amidst diversity can lead to tremendous growth. Where you have an organization, a neighborhood or even a country comprised of diverse peoples with diverse perspectives, in harmony and unity, real growth and progress can happen. Take one example. Is it possible to preserve the environment for future generations while at the same time being aware of the impact of environmental regulations on employment, peopleβs jobs? Perhaps there is a common sense middle ground where the environment is preserved while peopleβs jobs are preserved too. Unity amidst diverse perspectives and diverse agendas is not easy, but the alternative is eternal combat where both sides tend to lose.
It is all too easy to demonize the βother sideβ as evil; to keep in our corners with our own people group. Talk only to βour people,β live only near βour peopleβ and consume news and information only from news outlets and commentators we agree with. But when we do this, society becomes increasingly divided and growth and progress is stunted. We may not be able to change the world, at least not today. But how about in our workplace, in our community and neighborhood and even in our family? We need to try to listen to those who think differently and look differently than us. We should practice the words of St. Francis, seek first to understand.
Reflection
What group do you self identify with such that you feel some significant level of disagreement with the βother side?β
What steps will you take this week to learn about how the βother sideβ thinks from their perspective?
How will you seek to bridge the gap and see what can be done to find a middle ground between your groupβs perspective and the perspective of the βother side?β
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Ruza Markovic had dreamt of and studied for a career in journalism β when war intervened to change the trajectory of her life. While her family had emigrated to the U.S. from their native Yugoslavia when she was just 4, Markovic didnβt think twice when she was asked to return to her homeland in the early β90s as a communications liaison to the teetering government while political unrest and then war-ravaged the Balkans. What she saw and experienced, she says, laid barren her faith in country, politics, the media, and herself. Those trials and traumas, though, did not sap her spirit. They steeled her resolve to live her life in service to others β in part as an advocate for the liberating power of education.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. Iβm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Ruza M:
We were bugged and followed, and we often had conversations in the middle of the street in traffic because we knew. It wasnβt even pointless to even try to find it. And there was a moment where there was this big discussion about the American woman that came to work for the government. The reality is, I didnβt have a US passport. I had a green card. I believe I was the picture on theβ¦ I hadnβt even updated the green card, right? This was so loose. And Iβm a kid out of college going, βIβm going. Nothingβs going to stop me.β And theyβre having a discussion about the American woman, and I was literally barred from going into the office for at least two weeks.
Gary S:
That sounds like a pretty harrowing crucible, doesnβt it? And would you believe this terrifying trial didnβt just happen to todayβs guest, Ruza Markovic? She actually stepped into a crucible that already existed in the early 90s when her home nation of Yugoslavia was torn apart by political unrest that led to a war of unfathomable tragedy. Hi, Iβm Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
In todayβs episode, Ruza describes not only the dangerous experiences she endured as a young woman committed to helping her homeland, but also how she leveraged those profoundly difficult moments then and in the years since to build a life of significance as a communications executive and an advocate for the liberating power of education. She has seen more horrors and heartache than many, youβll hear. But they have not sapped her spirit. In fact, they have steeled her resolve to live her life in service to others.
Warwick F:
Thank you so much for being here. And boy, youβve had such an incredible life and amazing experiences, obviously some of them centered around the former Yugoslavia. But Iβd like to start with your background and how you grew up, which I believe was in what was then Yugoslavia. So just talk about your parents, grandparents, just what life was like for you as a small child growing up in Yugoslavia.
Ruza M:
So we actually immigrated when I was four and a half. We came to the U.Sβ¦
Warwick F:
Oh, wow. Okay.
Ruza M:
However, my grandfather was a POW of World War II and a Nazi concentration camp survivor. So the Germans had a policy towards the Serbs that was unique because we fought back with everything we had. And so when his camp was liberated by the British, they gave him options of going back home, going to the US, or going to Australia. And they were sponsored by a church group in Racine, Wisconsin, hence the connection, and the entire group of POWs ended up in Racine, Wisconsin. So today, some of my closest friends are grandchildren of those same POW survivors. They became each otherβs godparents to each otherβs children. And that has lasted well over 40 years.
Warwick F:
Wow. So you had really a whole extended family and friends growing up in Racine. So even though you were a bit young to remember a lot of where you came from, where you came from came with you, in a sense.
Ruza M:
It completely came with me. And the backstory, really, is that my father saw his father go off to war when he was four years old. He didnβt see him visit again until he was 27. So we came to US because I as a little girl, and my mom having lost her mom at the age of seven, I spent a summer with my cousinβs grandmother back in what was then Yugoslavia. Iβm named after my fatherβs grandmother, so I spent six months scribbling postcards and driving my parents absolutely bananas over, βWhen do I get to meet her? When do I get to meet her? Itβs around the corner.β So when my grandfather came here, he obviouslyβ¦ I mean, it took probably 12 to 15 years, brought my grandmother here.
Ruza M:
And then my father, who was the only one to graduate from college of his brothers and sisters, was the only one that stayed behind. And he literally was the one that the embassy knew, because every relative that decided to go, he was the one that ushered them in. And even when it was our turn to come, we came on a tourist visa. My father was working as an engineer. My mother was working for the biggest record production company in the country. We were living upper middle class, Eastern European life. They traveled to Italy and Greece every summer, winter kind of thing. They had this life.
Ruza M:
And then I tugged at their heartstrings. We came for a visit, and my father at the time⦠Two things. He missed his father, obviously. And this was, I think the greatest tug. But the other, because his father was in the US, and because Yugoslavia was a communist country, but a quasi, sitting next to the iron curtain, we look like a picnic. We could travel. You felt as free as a bird on the street.
Ruza M:
As long as you climbed up the ladder from a business perspective, you saw a ceiling. And if you had a parent that was living in the US, your ceiling was shorter than everybody elseβs. And so when he came to the US, and he saw a system that actually gave you back tax dollars, that thought just kind of blew his mind. And he went back, and we went back home. He made plans. And then we immigrated September 18th, 1973.
Warwick F:
Wow. And you were four years old.
Ruza M:
I was four years old. Sadly, my grandfather died six months later. So my father had those six months, but thatβs all he had. And immigrant life is never easy, but particularly when you studied in school Russian or Germanβ¦ And heβs an engineer. And so he started first at a gas station, then at American Motors, which Gary probably remembers well.
Gary S:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Ruza M:
And in fact, he worked the graveyard shift. And for the first several years, I only saw my parents kind of in passing. And I was the classic latchkey kid, who basically walked to school every morning and back. And sometimes my dad would try to come pick me up and wouldnβt see me from snowbanks, and so we would kind of do this. Make a long story short, he gets laid off at one point. Now, in this entire time, my mom and I are besides ourselves. I want to go home. I donβt know why Iβm here. None of this makes any sense to me. My mom has had, at the time, four sisters who had kids. We were all very, very close. And that bond for me left a lasting, to this day, reallyβ¦
Warwick F:
And they were back in Yugoslavia while you were here in Racine, Wisconsin.
Ruza M:
β¦ and I wanted to go home. My dad was so adamant. He was like, βWeβre going to go home after I work as an engineer for one day in this country. Period, end of discussion.β
Warwick F:
Okay.
Ruza M:
And literally gets laid off. He takes his diploma. And he was interviewed at Modine Manufacturing, which is a big company in Racine, and hired on the spot. But hereβs where the storyβ¦ Itβs very much the seed of the way I see my life having evolved from that point. He gets a job working for the man whose manuscript he was translating because it was published in a big technical journal, who happened to be in the same concentration camp with my grandfather.
Warwick F:
Oh my gosh.
Ruza M:
So it was one of those moments where you knew you were supposed to be where you were. See, it still gives me goosebumps. And from that point on, he really didnβt look back. We made it through five years, five years before we went back home for a visit. And my dad knew if we had gone any sooner, we probably would have changed our minds. Because while this country offers you all sorts of promise, going having to not having, and doing it willingly, is tough.
Ruza M:
So you went from having the standard life of an apartment, a car, travel, you had this life, to pumping gas, third shift, I donβt see my parents, weβre scrambling to save enough to buy a first home. When the war started in the Balkans, most of our family friends thought my father was prophetic. Because at that time in the 70s, nobody left. This wasnβt this mass exodus period in time.
Warwick F:
Right, because life was good. Just to cycle back for the audience that may not know, I think a guy by the name of Tito wasnβt it, he was sort of the guy in control of Yugoslavia. And while it was communist, itβs not like East Germany or Hungary or Bulgaria or some other parts in Eastern Europe that were pretty locked down, and if you breathed against the government youβd probably be in some prison. Iβm sure it wasnβt perfect, but relative to other, if you were in East Germany, for instance, youβd be maybe a little envious of some of the folks in Yugoslavia, especially ones in middle class, upper middle class like your family. So at the time, it seemed like, why would you leave Yugoslavia? It has so much promise, and-
Ruza M:
And my father-
Warwick F:
β¦ things look so good.
Ruza M:
β¦ he tells stories to this day of running into Gandhi on the streets of Belgrade, because as part of the non-aligned movement, you had all of this excitement happening within the capital city. And again, people thought he was crazy, flat out. So he literally retired from Modine Manufacturing. He spent 25 great years. And I would say the highlight of his career is he got to work on the first cooling engine for the Dodge Viper and the Porsche. He lived what I call his childhood dream out every day. And we were very, very blessed.
Ruza M:
In the middle of that, in order to go up the corporate ladder, he had to take a position somewhere else, anywhere else. And we moved to Jefferson City, Missouri, where we had Greek neighbors, and that made our street the most international in a 700-mile radius. And it was the best thing that could have happened to us, because what comfort zone after that? When you live in an immigrant corridor that is Milwaukee to Chicago to Indiana, youβre in a bubble. Your home could be figuratively anywhere, right?
Warwick F:
Right.
Ruza M:
Because everything within the home still feels like youβre back home. And thereβs pressure to be that way within an immigrant community. God forbid we all forget anything, right?
Warwick F:
Right.
Ruza M:
So you cut yourself off in many ways, certainly back then. Itβs to a lesser degree today, because the world today, to a lesser degree, has all sorts of opportunities to communicate and travel.
Warwick F:
Itβs so much more integrated and global. Yeah, I mean, there are advantages to being with those that you know and the people group and the background. On the other hand, you donβt expose yourself to part of whatβs new and different people groups. I get it. So-
Ruza M:
And part of that experience in Missouri⦠First of all, I got to see a different face of America, if that makes any sense, right?
Warwick F:
Right.
Ruza M:
The moment the moving van pulled into the driveway, people coming out with cookies and pies and like a little Mayberry. It was crazy. But the other thing that happened, because truly, we were different. You know how different you are when Iβm in the store with my mom and theyβre like, βIs that Chinese or Mexican?β Right? And not even close. So you knew you were dropped in the middle of nowhere. But my parents worried I would forget. And so then became the, during summers, I was practicing Cyrillic. And they would send me back, so I would spend summers with cousins in Yugoslavia-
Warwick F:
So just-
Ruza M:
β¦ from the age of 13 on.
Warwick F:
So did you grow up in the Serbian part of Yugoslavia?
Ruza M:
Yes.
Warwick F:
Or I guess your family?
Ruza M:
Yes. Belgrade
Warwick F:
Okay. So I should know⦠When I think of Cyrillic, I think of the Russian alphabet, but in Serbian, they also use Cyrillic?
Ruza M:
They also use Cyrillic. They use both. Not interchangeably, obviously.
Warwick F:
Right.
Ruza M:
But one thing that happened when the communists put the country together is that they kind of made this magic happen of, it could be this, or it could be that. So there was easier communication across the whole of the country. But they sent me back every summer, so needless to say, on top of the fact that my language skills are such that you canβt tell that I grew up here, in my native language. I also had a sense for politics, economics.
Ruza M:
How could you not? Because I spent two months, really, every summer for summer after summer. And my greatest compliment was when kids were surprised that I had shoes that said, βMade in the US.β Because they had put it together, right? And that was my pride and joy, because I would spend the first two weeks kind of being quiet so that I wouldnβt give myself up to being kind of rusty. So when the opportunity came to be over there, it was kind of a natural progression.
Warwick F:
So did part of these experiences fuel your desire to be a journalist and go to Northwestern Medill school? Was there a link there between⦠How did all that happen?
Ruza M:
As a kid, the one thing that we never missed were the evening news, and World News Tonight was like the be all, end all. And the reason is because at the time, if a phone rang, we knew somebody died or someone was born. Right?
Warwick F:
Right.
Ruza M:
Your ability to communicate with family was so limited that that was the window to the rest of the world, and weβd all be listening for something in Europe, just something so that you felt connected. And so those were my heroes. So I literally wrote to Walter Cronkite in kindergarten for career day, and they wrote back.
Warwick F:
Wow.
Ruza M:
And that still sits in Wadewitz Elementary School, is a letter from Walter Cronkiteβs people, Iβm sure. But that was my goal. And the ridiculous part is, I was a math wiz. I mean, I took advanced calculus in college as a joke. So I mean, in retrospect, somebody should have said, βIs this really the path you want to go down? Youβre an immigrant. English is your second language.β And I canβt spell to save my life. This is the path? It was the path.
Gary S:
Iβve never known another journalist who was any good at math. In fact, I used to say in newsrooms I worked in that there should be a big alarm that would go off whenever a journalist tried to do math, so that everybody knewβ¦ Woo, woo, woo, journalist doing math, back away. So bravo to you.
Warwick F:
I know one of the key points in your story is going to Yugoslavia in I think the early 90s. And I guess by then, life was different than when you, in your early, formative years, and-
Ruza M:
But not that different. Hereβs the thing that haunts me to today. I watched, especially in those late 80s, early 90s years, where, because the moment people died, suddenly the debt is due. Right?
Warwick F:
Right.
Ruza M:
Suddenly the head of the mob family, which is really how you look at a dictator and how he lives. Suddenly the debt was due. Suddenly they were under the kind of austerity measures that you talk about today, Europe having implemented during this last economic crisis. They were rationing toothpaste. There was this moment in time of, how did we go from that to this? And also, when people died, youβre suddenly looking into the constitution, which is meaningless when you have a dictatorβ¦ βOkay, weβre going to have a presidency, and every state, if you will, of this union will have a president that will serve for a year.β
Ruza M:
So think about how difficult it is to do things within a four year period. Within a year, itβs impossible. It became a zoo, and it became thisβ¦ There was a lot done, and people did a lot, that actually, Saddam Hussein learned from. In fact, the same lunatic that built Titoβs bunkers built Husseinβs bunkers.
Warwick F:
Wow.
Ruza M:
And the same kind of seasoning the stew of, as long as thereβs friction, people will look to me for peace. And so youβre in a communist country, and theyβre starting to give more favor religiously to certain groups.
Warwick F:
Right, because you hadβ¦ I mean, you know way more than me, but Serbians, Bosnians, people of maybe Christian Orthodox background, Muslims. I mean, its backgroundβ¦ So it seems like Tito seemed to be able to hold what was maybe festering challenges that had gone on for hundreds of years. It wasnβt like this came from nowhere, all of these frictions.
Ruza M:
No, no, no. This was thousands of years in the making. However, World War I and World War II were brutal in the Balkans, and what the communists did is basically rewrite history to suit themselves. Well, once he died, this became this simmering stew, is the best way to explain it, and the lid goingβ¦ Especially from an economic perspective. This was what I call β84 to β88, β89. Then comes a president that goes, βThis is crazy. Letβs change our economic policy, and letβs privatize.β
Ruza M:
So Iβm in Serbia in 1990, watching people take literally a four by four piece of land in front of their home, and open a little shop and start selling whatever. Privatization started, and I remember how hopeful I was that they had a chance to actually become this vibrant European country. By March of β91, that was over, just like this. And it was over because the politics had outpaced the economics, and it happened that quickly.
Warwick F:
Thatβs an important lesson. So from what I understand, there was a US Congresswoman that asked, βCan you go and be a communications liaison with,β some US person who was going to be Prime Minister?
Ruza M:
Correct.
Warwick F:
And from what I understand, there was going to be 10 people, and turns out you were the only one on the plane. So just talk about that wholeβ¦ That must have been an amazing experience, because here, you werenβt going to see family. You were going there professionally-
Ruza M:
Right.
Warwick F:
β¦ to help the country of your birth.
Ruza M:
The war began, and I remember even friends from school, now university friends, being like, βHow can you live with yourself as,β whatever ethnicity they were associating with whatβs happening in the media. And I think for me, the heartbreak was, I had family in trouble. I had an aunt and cousins in Sarajevo. I had an aunt, cousins in Bosnia. And out of my momβs four sisters, of the five of them, four had a daughter each. We were incredibly close. Their kids are like my kids.
Ruza M:
And so this is happening. I wrote to Walter Cronkite in kindergarten, so Iβm watching Nightline, and Iβm watching Serbs bomb churches. The only problem is, the only churches that I see falling are Serbian. And my headβs going, if you canβt get it right, Houston, weβre in trouble. And so I reached out to a couple ofβ¦ Jim Moody, I believe, a Congressman from Wisconsin who had actually spent some time in the Balkans as a young man after, I think serving in the military, something to that effect, and had run into Helen Delich Bentley. She was married Bentley, but she was a Serb.
Warwick F:
Oh, wow. Because I think she was a Congresswoman from Maryland.
Ruza M:
Yes. For many, many years.
Warwick F:
I live in Maryland, so that name-
Ruza M:
For many, many years. And she kind of put me on her radar, and calls me up one morning at 3:30. Literally, the woman never slept. And was like, βWe need your help. We have this team of young journalists Iβm assembling.β Milan Panic, who was, at the time, CEO of ICN Pharmaceuticals. He had zero reason, zero reason to actually go do this. But a personal friend, and a lifelong friend, had at the time been politically involved in the country, and so as a personal favor, he said yes. And so he gets the state department to approve the fact that he has a USβ¦ not to lose his US citizen. He serves as Prime Minister.
Ruza M:
And they were outnumbered, really, from a press perspective. There was so much Western media that they couldnβt handle it. And every time weβd see a report on the news, my angst was, just get it right. This isnβt about whose side I am. This isnβt a sporting event. This is, the moment you get it wrong, you have now proven to dictator A, B, C, or D, because mind you, they just woke up from communism five seconds ago. They have no other sense. You have just proven that jerk right, that the world is manipulating the situation politically. And when they donβt get it right on major television newsβ¦ Or, look, Chicago Trib.
Ruza M:
Right before I went overseas, I was in a meeting with a then editor, who happened to be Greek, which made me crazy because he should know better, in the sense of, there is a big picture on the front page saying, βCroatian soldier holds cross of bombed church.β Well, hereβs the problem. Itβs a Serbian cross. So is he happy? The context of the photo was so off that my head is exploding, going, these are basics. I wouldnβt expect a US journalist to necessarily understand the inner politicking within Serbia, within Croatia, because we are known for five levels of chess, nothing simple. And everything is some sort of game.
Warwick F:
But while you canβt expect, you can assume that theyβre going to be professional, and if they donβt understand, they will ask questions, Iβm sure they had interpreters with them, and try to get it right. Because this is sort of a cauldron of nationalities and people groups, and making mistakes, in this case-
Ruza M:
If I had a-
Warwick F:
β¦ I donβt know if it can cost lives, but it can cause a lot of damage.
Ruza M:
If I had a penny for every time CNN showed you one city and talked about another. You donβt know the difference, but I know the difference. And so to me, not only are they putting my chosen profession into big question, right? Neon signs going, is this as good as it gets? Is this as much as they care? Once Iβm there, and Iβll never forget arriving, and Iβll never forget the day that we went to Kosovo, which is still a mess, with Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen.
Warwick F:
And Cyrus, was he Secretary of State-
Ruza M:
Yes.
Warwick F:
β¦ under Clinton? Okay.
Ruza M:
And a US diplomat of what I call enormous stature. Iβve only been in his presence once, and that was it. So the level of complexity to the situation was heartbreaking. There were no easy answers. But at one point, the Italian Foreign Minister raged at the press corps, going, βWhen you publish that there is fighting where there is not, tomorrow there will be, and who bears responsibility for that?β Because the biggest issue in these kinds of conflicts is not hatred, itβs fear. Iβm living next to my neighbor, and I donβt know what he stockpiled in his basement.
Ruza M:
So the first incidences of what they later named ethnic cleansing were people in cities, cut off. Thereβs no internet. I donβt know whatβs going on. Iβm hearing things through radio that isnβt accurate. And weβre probably next. So they took the minority of people in that city and bussed them out for their own safety. This happened over and over again. The problem is, the big light bulb of, what are they doing, turned on, and all sides stopped taking prisoners. So the level to which it went from bad to slaughter overnightβ¦
Gary S:
I want to rewind just a little-
Ruza M:
But I know weβre getting kind of off tangent, soβ¦
Warwick F:
Yeah, yeah. No, itβs all good.
Gary S:
No, no, no, no.
Ruza M:
I could talk about politics forever.
Gary S:
I just want to rewind a bit, Ruza, because you said something about fear being the driving force behind this. And Warwick mentioned that there were initially going to be 10 young student journalists who were going to go over there and who were going to help sort of sort through this, help the acting Prime Minister deal with this. You were the only one who showed up. You were the only one who wasnβt afraid to go there.
Gary S:
I kind of know the answer to this question because I knew the young woman you were before you went there, because we worked together at the paper in Racine when you were an intern in 1989. I knew the steel in your spine. I knew who you were then. But for our listeners, who did not know you then, what was it that kept you from being too afraid to get on the plane and get off the plane? Nine people dropped out. You didnβt. Why?
Ruza M:
The morning that Helen Bentley called me, I had the same experience my father had when he was hired by a man who was in the same concentration camp with him. I had a moment of clarity of, Iβm meant to do this. So it was this, you see the road turning, and in very many ways, I had my father screaming in my ear, going, βYou also have an economics degree. Go get a job. Stop working withβ¦β I was working with a small media agency in Chicago, and so the road very dramatically turned, and this was very much all I hoped for, was to use my language skills, to see my family.
Ruza M:
So a combination of hopes and dreams, and every door opened. I could have been at Reuters or AP after all of that happened, but I saw the underbelly of theβ¦ It saved me 20 years of sitting in a news organization thinking that the power of the pen is the power of the pen. You canβt take the person out of the story. In these circumstances, peopleβ¦
Warwick F:
And unlike some other journalists, you knew the whole history.
Ruza M:
Right.
Warwick F:
You understand the whole complex contextual situation. So you could have been at Reuters and worked your way up the ladder being successful, but it sounds like you felt like, βWell, nothing wrong with success, but I have some unique abilities and background to hopefully let me help a little bit.β
Ruza M:
Well, no. Let me restate that. Let me restate that. Every door when I came into the Balkans opened, and I could have stayed at Reuters in the Balkans and covered the war.
Warwick F:
Right.
Ruza M:
Right?
Warwick F:
Okay.
Ruza M:
But I saw the underbelly of, I saw my heroes sitting at the press club bar sending kids to the front lines as stringers, completely detached from the reality, because it wasnβt affecting them. It wasnβt their family.
Warwick F:
Isnβt that what they call in journalism, phoning it in-
Ruza M:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
β¦ kind of thing? Rather than being out there on the front lines, they just kind ofβ¦ I mean, I donβt know, thatβs a sad image. But-
Ruza M:
But from a family perspective, the other thing that got me on the plane is immigrant communities, when the phone rings, you answer it. And back in the 70s and 80s, when your flat tire went out, you had to call somebody. Right?
Warwick F:
Right.
Ruza M:
So I grew up with a sense of duty. And so the moment that I was tapped and I was going, people came out of the woodwork to carry medicine for family, money for family. I mean, I walked in with letβs just say a whole lot of money that was not mine basically hidden on me.
Warwick F:
Wow.
Ruza M:
Just because of the situation, itβs not going to stop people from helping their family.
Warwick F:
They want to help. So I understand there was a couple of challenges you faced. I think you were maybe mistaken for somebody else, and potentially on some arrest list, and then I think there was another time when they thought maybe you were potentially part of some prisoner exchange. I mean, this wasnβt like going to the French Riviera on some holiday.
Ruza M:
No. No. No, not at all.
Warwick F:
You had some challenges.
Ruza M:
We were bugged and followed, and we often had conversations in the middle of the street in traffic, because we knew. It wasnβt even pointless to even try to find it. And there was a moment where there was this big discussion about the American woman that came to work for the government. The reality is, I didnβt have a US passport. I had a green card. I believe I was the picture on theβ¦ I hadnβt even updated the green card, right? This was so loose. And Iβm a kid out of college going, βIβm going. Nothingβs going to stop me.β And theyβre having a discussion about the American woman, and I was literally barred from going into the office for at least two weeks, and I was holed up in Panicβs private office, which used to be Titoβs office. So that was just a jolly good time, because I-
Warwick F:
Wow.
Ruza M:
β¦ got to comb through all sorts of stuff. But the first time that it came out, there was a headline, and so my first reaction is, my motherβs going to kill me. And it had zero to do with the severity of the situation. It had to do with, my aunts are going to flip out, and my motherβs going to kill me.
Warwick F:
Right. Whatβs happened to Ruza in America? Have they just sort of corrupted her?
Ruza M:
Yeah, exactly.
Warwick F:
Whatβs she done?
Ruza M:
Exactly. Exactly.
Warwick F:
And then there was a whole prisoner exchange episode, and that was pretty dicey too, right? It was sort of on the border between different places?
Ruza M:
So I leave the Balkans. We were threatened with house arrest when Panic ran against Milosevic. And we absolutely found evidence that he had stolen the election.
Warwick F:
Wow.
Ruza M:
We had 24 hours to flee. But that wasnβt good enough for me. To put it this way, when you go through something like that thatβs so much bigger than yourself, you canβt just come back here and get a job. I mean, your entire perspectiveβ¦ First of all, it rocked who I wanted to be when I grow up, my question of country, but both. Right? The US government wasnβt exactly forthcoming, if you will. There was a lot ofβ¦ Just because they let Panic take the role with zero support.
Ruza M:
So my questioning of whoβs on first, and what the hell is happening, just opened this Pandoraβs box of, who am I? Why am I here? Whatβs the point? And to the point that, so now Iβm home, and now Iβm back in Racine, and I know every journalist on the planet covering the story. I have their phone numbers. And Iβm watching their bylines being printed, going, βThis is garbage.β So I started faxing them to them, and they literally took the journalistic pyramid and flipped it. So the lead was buried. This randomness came to the top, and there was all of this angst around, why is this happening? Where is it happening?
Ruza M:
And at a certain point, the media agency that I was working with in Chicago was indeed supported by Helen Bentley. But when I came home, that was a whole other affair. They had made strange bedfellows with Milosevicβs crew, and so I had to part ways in a very kind of strategic way, not to get myselfβ¦ I was more afraid in the US, to be quite honest, in the community that I was back in Serbia, because people didnβt know what was going on back there. So it was this, you want to believe one thing, you donβtβ¦ It was crazy, to put it mildly.
Warwick F:
How did you adjust back to normal life? I mean, I understand you got into corporate communications for a company, and now have your own firm. How did you make that adjustment? Because it sounds like that was-
Ruza M:
There was a moment in time-
Warwick F:
β¦ a searing experience, that whole time.
Ruza M:
There was a moment in timeβ¦ Well, first of all, I got to a document that I couldnβt believe I saw at this media center when I was indeed going to say hello and goodbye to them, that as they were in a meeting, I literally faxed to a journalist who screamed at me on the phone for half an hour, going, βIt will be obvious where this came from, so go hide. Go bury your head somewhere. Come back here.β
Warwick F:
Wow.
Ruza M:
He was so worried, and the story was so big, that it would come back to me, that he handed it to The Washington Post. And Iβm still pissed that it appeared on page three and not on page one.
Gary S:
I love that. I would be, too.
Ruza M:
So then I go to Arizona. I come to Arizona. He wanted me to bury my head in the sand, so Iβm going to go visit family in Arizona. And I go back to Wisconsin just to visit my folks, and the phone rings. And now itβs one of the people I worked with with Panic, asking me to go back and monitor the first Bosnian elections. Again, I have this moment of, wild horses couldnβt stop me. Letβs go. When do we leave? Thatβs when we entered Sarajevo 10 days before the last peace accord held.
Ruza M:
And I am a female exec from one of Panicβs companies in the Balkans, took the long car ride from Belgrade to Sarajevo, which I have taken many times to visit my aunt. But you canβt go into the city because your license plate, back in the day, gives you up to what city youβre from. Youβre in the middle of a war zone. Thatβs not happening. So they drop us off at a bridge. Youβve got kids armed to the hilt. The kids. I mean, I at the time-
Ruza M:
β¦ was maybe 26. They were maybe 18, 19. And a guy came up to us and asked us whether we were part of the prisoner exchange. And Iβm looking down. It is literally a bridge, and thereβs nothing stopping anyone from shooting you, and no one would care, not even for five seconds. So you start cracking jokes with the people who are armed so that they start easing off. And by the time we were picked up, everyone was having a jolly good time, because thereβs no other way to cut through the tension.
Ruza M:
But there was no point in time that I was afraid, because I knew the people who had called me to do this were going to come from Sarajevo, because they had gone before us to set everything up to pick us up, and indeed they did. And there was a moment in time in that city as I looked to see how most of the city was intact, how the fighting had happened from one mountainside to the hospital, which was one of the tallest buildings in town, and the Holiday Inn. And I just sat there and bawled. It was one of those first moments in all of this nonsense that I truly, truly just lost it and said, βEnough. Enough.β If I canβt help-
Warwick F:
And-
Ruza M:
β¦ God, donβt keep driving me into this if I canβt effect the change that-
Warwick F:
Iβm sure it was devastating. For US listeners, Sarajevo was the site of the winter Olympics. Iβm trying to rememberβ¦ When was that? Was it in the 80s?
Ruza M:
β84. 1984.
Warwick F:
β84, just before all this happened. I think I saw some documentary after it where the ice skating was and ski runs, it was just nothing. It was devastating. So Iβm sure all those images are probably in your mind of what it once was.
Ruza M:
But once you realizeβ¦ Because I went to go see Sniper Alley. Itβs funny. Sitting at the hotel at the Holiday Inn as we were getting our assignments of where we were going to go as monitors, all of the busboys and the folks in the kitchen would start talking to me because I was the youngest among all of these people. And so they would tell me more than I possibly could hear on the news of what actually was happening. And so one of them willingly took me to see where this was.
Ruza M:
And when he explained to me that the only time anyone had to cross was when the authorities in the city turned off the water on a slow news day, I was sick, because the media made a really bad, ugly history, and a situation that is thousands of years in the making, 10 times worse.
Warwick F:
So you come back to the US. You decide, βOkay, this guy wants me to go here, and Iβm done with this.β How in the world do you move on with your life in Phoenix and corporate communications? How do you do that from the searing experience?
Ruza M:
So I had one foot here, and I still had one foot there. You still have to survive. You still have to make money. So I had what I call my in in communications jobs, still kind of open to the opportunity, especially when Milosevic was ousted and in came the first democratically elected president of Serbia. And then came the phone calls about wanting to help work for him. Of course I was in. I was all in. Three days before I was scheduled to leave, he was assassinated, and that really was the end.
Warwick F:
Oh my gosh.
Ruza M:
That was the end. That was the moment. I had this moment ofβ¦ And even through the bombing of Belgrade, which I donβt wish any human to actually understand what itβs like to watch on CNN the building that you know you have family living in being shelled. It ripped us all apart. But my hope was that that was a new day and a new leaf and a turning of the page, and thatβs the moment when I went, βI canβt do this anymore.β And that was the same moment that Iβll say the phone rang, and I was interviewed by several education companies.
Ruza M:
And especially those that were dealing with international students appealed to my heart, because I knew instinctively that what happened in the Balkans, you had an economic fallout that led to a brain drain. Who was left behind with those that had no options? And if you peel the onion back and you look at where the lines were drawn and where the biggest fighting was, youβll see that they were the lowest levels of education. Those two things are inevitably tied.
Warwick F:
It sounds like what Iβm hearing, Ruza, is you had this, I donβt know, maybe a dream or mission form as you were growing up, and then spent some time in what was then Yugoslavia, maybe I canβt resurrect the whole country and undo thousands of years of conflict, but maybe I can do something.
Ruza M:
Right.
Warwick F:
I can have a little bit that can maybe move it on a good path, but then at a certain point, that dream, that mission died, if you will, that, gee, I canβt do this. Itβs not my mission. It sounds like your mission shifted.
Ruza M:
It did.
Warwick F:
And out of that, the whole passion for education and the importance of, I think you said education being the bedrock of democracy. Sounds like, though, from that mission, that it changed for you is something else.
Ruza M:
There was a moment in time when I was like, βLook. As bad as it is that this situation existed and all of these amazing people with great potential are leaving the countryβ¦β There was this moment of time of, yes, but one day, that same person that is left behind who rules, pick a city, will one day pick up the phone and call an intel, and want an intel to come to their city and open up offices and jobs. And guess who theyβre going to have to talk to? Someone from the Balkans. Right? There came a moment where the opportunity for globalization and being in a position to influence bigger or greater change kind of woke up in me to go, βCome on. Get on with it.β
Warwick F:
So how would you describe your mission now? Because I know you have corporate communications, but it sounds like thereβs a mission that youβre passionate about that really animates and drives you. How would you describe that mission for you today?
Ruza M:
Thereβs been a lot thatβs influenced how I got here, but for me, it still goes back to telling a really good, authentic story that can affect how a person feels and can affect change. We recently didβ¦ And I am really proud of the fact that COVID and cancer, they hit at the same timeβ¦ And I have to chuckle, because when you asked me to do a write up, I had to literally go back and add the cancer.
Warwick F:
And thatβs amazing. Just for listeners, in the midst of COVID, you got a cancer diagnosis.
Ruza M:
Right.
Warwick F:
Which, youβve had so much on your plate, itβs like you must have thought, βReally?β
Ruza M:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
I mean, come on. Is it going to be like plagues of locusts? What next kind of thing.
Ruza M:
No question. Right?
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Ruza M:
I also have this sense that I have this guardian angel, and her name is Maud, and she drinks. And she takes me out to a ledge, and by the time she kind of figures out where I am, she always saves me. But thereβs this moment of dangling off a ledge. So to me, it was more, I truly believe God tests those that He loves, and that there are people who can go through stuff and still not get it. So to me, it was one more speed bump. Itβs not an obstacle. Itβs another walk through fire to get to the other side.
Warwick F:
I almost-
Ruza M:
Because what I want is right there, and this is the one more thing Iβve got to get through.
Warwick F:
I mean, I know this is a little metaphysical, but I wonder if Godβs saying, βWell, I know Ruza is made of very strong stuff, so Iβm going to test her, but I know she can handle it.β I donβt know whether thatβs biblical or not, but do you ever feel like that He feels like, βNot everybody can handle it, but Ruza can.β
Ruza M:
But I also feel like-
Warwick F:
βShe can learn.β
Ruza M:
β¦ life is not really a make your own mystery book. Right? I feel like that if people stepped back and looked at the serendipity that inevitably leads us allβ¦ I will never forget the first interview Oprah did with Deepak Chopra. And he explained how modern medicine has gotten us to a point that you can open up a brain and understand where things happen and why theyβre happening, but we canβt figure out where thoughts come from. So to me, these forks in the road are those whispers of, βHere comes the next path. Hereβs the next chapter.β
Ruza M:
But I also really feel like youβve got two choices in life. You can win, or you can be right. And being right is a lonely mountain, but the places that have been my crucible moments have inevitably been whereβ¦ Because my nature is win-win. My nature is, letβs figure it out. And for those of us from the Balkans, weβre really good at figuring it out, making it work and finding a middle ground. When thatβs not possible, thatβs been when Iβve hit a wall. Thatβs been the moment. There was no win-win for me in sitting in a newsroom watching inaccuracies being printed.
Ruza M:
There was no moment for me when Iβm in a corporate setting, and inevitably there was a comment made that I remember like lightning striking, going, βOkay. Here comes the next chapter.β Because I had no choice at that moment. Everything I tried to make it a win-win became a, I had to take a stand. It transgressed that moment of win-win.
Warwick F:
People that are listening to this, there might be young people listening, and some might have gone through hard times and may be disillusioned about everything, from the world to politics to business people and all of the stuff that happens in the workplace that is often not appropriate. Thereβs probably a bunch of young people that are disillusioned. What message of hope do you have for those who maybe they were idealistic and had a dream, and maybe itβs been dented a bit or shattered a bit by the hardships of life and by the actions of others? What message of hope do you have for young people that maybe their dream and vision has got tarnished? What message of hope do you have for people like that?
Ruza M:
You canβt let the outside world really stop you from pursuing your dreams. Itβs planted. Itβs the whisper in your ear. Itβs the thought that modern medicine canβt figure out where itβs coming from. Thereβs a reason God gave you that dream. And even if you have to put it on the back shelf because you have a family, youβre doing this, doing that, doing the other, the fact that itβs there, one way or another, it will come back around. Inevitably, it will come back around. There will be an opportunity if you open yourself up to it.
Ruza M:
So if you donβt talk to the person youβre sitting next to on a plane, you have no idea why God put that person next to you. If you donβt open yourself up to the fact that the people in your life are meant to be there at this particular time, good, bad, and ugly, you have the power, and I have many times literally made a list of, especially because Iβm a saver, right? I want to save everyone. And Iβve made a list ofβ¦ In fact, Iβve told people, Iβve told my own family that Iβve seen killing themselves to try to help a community or family members, to go, βHow many people would you have helped if you had turned this way and notβ¦ Thereβs a point in time where youβre not helping anyone because youβre drowning in a negativity that you canβt change.β
Ruza M:
So I have parted ways. Iβve never burned a bridge, but I have definitely turned a page, where just because weβre friends, I wonβt get dragged into that drama. Thereβs a certain level of focus and energy that you need to get through a day and to get where youβre going, and everything is literally one day at a time. The world can change this quickly. And if you donβt leave yourself open to the possibility that good can happen, it wonβt. And I think thatβs the other lessons for me, really, has been, because I am from the Balkans, and weβre all kind of moody, broody. I like a good rainy day.
Ruza M:
Phoenix, right? The irony of that is incredible. So pulling myself out of contemplativeβ¦ We like to wallow. We like to tell war stories. We like to go, βBut thereβs no hope in that. Thereβs no effecting change in that.β
Warwick F:
But it sounds like youβve chosen a different path. Youβve been through some very tough experiences, seen some terrible things that people do to each other for reasons that go back thousands of years, that probably nobody can even remember where it started and why. But yet you could be cynical, you could be disillusioned. I think youβre obviously wiser. As the years go by, hopefully wisdom happens. But yet youβre not cynical. I think you still have a sense of hope and optimism. And that, to me, is a great gift, because a lot of people, having seen what youβve seen, say, βthereβs no hope in humanity. Wars will go on forever. The Balkans will alwaysβ¦β
Warwick F:
I mean, it was the Balkans that started World War I. And speaking of Sarajevo, itβs been in the center of a lot of things. Itβs like, what reason is there for hope? War will break out. You can be negative, but yet I sense you have a sense of not naΓ―ve optimism, but informed optimism, if you will. But you choose to hope rather than choose to wallow through your whole life.
Ruza M:
And I do think, though, when you open yourself up to having a conversation like this, you do have to talk about the things that youβve gone through, and not in a way that it gives them oxygen, but that gives you perspective. And one of the reasons that the videos that you have seen, outside of now running a company and publicity and stuff, the reason that I really started talkingβ¦ For many, many years, I didnβt talk about any of this, especially the stuff in the Balkans.
Ruza M:
And part of the thing that has driven me is I see a lot of parallels in the world today. I know what itβs like to go into one familyβs home and theyβre listening to this news station, and go to that familyβs home and theyβre listening to another news station, how families, through politics break up. And Iβve seen this movie before, and it doesnβt end well. And so one thing thatβs galvanized me is, thereβs no one I know from the Balkans that isnβt having some sort of the same kind of deja vu of, it changes that fast. And the thought of, well, weβre not them.
Warwick F:
But them could be anybody. You could look at Northern Ireland.
Ruza M:
Right.
Warwick F:
Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland, Catholic, Protestant. Itβs like, βWell, why are you attacking them?β βWell, they attacked one of us.β Itβs gone and there certainly for hundreds of years. Thereβs conflict anywhere that, oh, those people donβt get it. Theyβre the enemy. I mean, itβs-
Ruza M:
There are-
Warwick F:
Itβs everywhere.
Ruza M:
β¦ three beautiful families in Phoenix who all came from the outskirts of Sarajevo. One is Serbian, one is Croatian, and one is Muslim. They were godparents to each otherβs kids and were neighbors. And they left at the same time together because they knew theyβd be ripped apart if they hadnβt. So God works in mysterious ways.
Warwick F:
When you see things like that, you think miracles can happen-
Ruza M:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
β¦ because rationally, those three should not-
Ruza M:
No.
Warwick F:
β¦ be friends. It makes no sense.
Ruza M:
But for many, many years, they were. And this is the lesson from what politics can do, what economics can do, when people, when fear, really, of, I donβt know what will happen next, starts to take hold. I feel like the last four years in this country, there needs to be some sort of a catharticβ¦ Four. Last 10. Some sort of a cathartic discussion around, βWe may see things differently, but thereβs far more that unites us than divides us.β And I think-
Warwick F:
Thatβs a very important message.
Ruza M:
β¦ everyone is too afraid to even start that conversation, that thatβs what worries me.
Gary S:
That is a perfect note to sayβ¦ I think I heard the captain turn on the fasten seatbelt sign, and weβre getting to the point where itβs time to begin thinking about landing the plane. Before we do that, though, Ruza, I would be remiss if I did not give listeners the opportunity to find out more about Pro One Media, so tell them how they can find you and your services online.
Ruza M:
ProOneMedia.com. We have done 35 years of media and video production. And Iβm very, very blessed equally I found them serendipitously. I was in another big, publicly traded corporate company, and my father actually had an accident with myβ¦ I was worried that he was with my son, and I remember having this moment of, can I leave? Itβs like Iβmβ¦ The whole corporate setting, once you walk in that door, thereβs this sense that certain rules apply. In any event, I ran out the door, right? My father had been in an accident.
Ruza M:
And I stopped at one point and saidβ¦ Thereβs a big part of my story about my son. I went through many, many miscarriages, and a divorce, and again, had no interest in leaving Apollo. And a friend of mine called me to serve as a reference, because he was looking for a job. And as I was talking to this person, he was like, βWould you mind meeting with our CEO?β So I decided to have breakfast with the lovely lady. By dinner, I had a job offer, and I ended up in Florida.
Ruza M:
What I didnβt know is that, outside of being a very powerful businesswoman, she had four kids, six grandkids, and she and her husband, whoβs an attorney, would prank call their grandkids as Disney characters during lunch. I knew I was in trouble. And sheβd pick at me when weβd be on a bumpy plane ride to the middle of nowhere, and my fatalistic tendency is, being from the Balkans, of itβs going to happen, itβs going to happen. She was like, βDo you want to be a mother? Do you want to be a mother?β So I didnβt tell anybody when I started fertility treatments, found specialists. And of course it worked because itβs crazy.
Ruza M:
And I have an eight-year-old son. So when my father had this accident and Iβm sitting in my corporate role, Iβm driving to the scene, going, βThis is crazy. This is absolutely crazy.β And I went, βI have to jump off this corporate ladder. This child is more important to me than necessarily this stature and career.β And by complete happenstance, I ran into this company that wasβ¦ The couple that owned it previously were retiring. And the entire client base are corporate companies that are publicly traded, which is the world I came from. So again, it was very, very serendipitous. And Iβm very blessedβ¦
Warwick F:
Having your own company, you get to at least have a little bit more say about your hours and flexibility and being with your son. So yeah, it sounds like youβve continued to follow your own path and listen to the still small voice, however we think of those little turning points in our life-
Ruza M:
For sure.
Warwick F:
β¦ and youβve-
Ruza M:
And itβs given me the opportunity to help a lot of nonprofits, so itβs given meβ¦ Because now Iβm the person who says, βYes, you can.β
Gary S:
Right. And that sounds a lot like what we talk about at Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible as a life of significance. You are definitely well-ensconced, well along the road to an entirely different kind of life of significance than maybe than you lived earlier. And thatβs-
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Because we talk about a life of significance being a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, and clearly thatβs what you do, and have sought to do, I donβt know, pretty much, sounds like, your whole life.
Ruza M:
Right.
Warwick F:
So itβs the definition, I think, of a life of significance, which is, to me, what we think lifeβs all about.
Gary S:
That last sound was the wheels touching down on the runway, so the captain has indeed landed the plane. Gather your peanut bags, get your luggage. As we go, though, there are three, and there are plenty more than three. I pulled three, I think. And actually, Ruza, I stole one from you from the sheet that you filled out before we did this. So I pulled two, and then I stole one from you, so Iβll give you full credit when I read it. But takeaways from this episode that I think listeners can apply to their own lives and their own crucibles.
Gary S:
The first one is, and this was all over your story as a young woman, Ruza, is, donβt let fear cancel your vision. Donβt let it override your passion. Sometimes it will lead you to not just experience a crucible, but in your case, it led you to jump into a crucible, which is a different kind of experience than weβve had on the show before. Your skills and passions, listener, may be exactly the things needed to help others endure a crucible that theyβre going through. Your life of significance could actually begin by choosing to enter a crucible. Thatβs number one.
Gary S:
Number two, as we say in every showβ¦ Itβs interesting. At the end of every show, and Iβm going to say it in a few minutes, we say that your crucibles donβt have to be the end of your story. Theyβre not the end of your story. They can be the beginning of a new and more rewarding story if you learn the lessons of them. And one of the things that we heard from Ruza today is that she recognized, in the midst of the crucible sheβd been through, a commonality that education was a dividing line in some of the things she saw in the strife in countries that she experienced.
Gary S:
Thereβs a line of education. That was the line of demarcation between people who got through it okay and people who didnβt. And sheβs dedicated herself since moving into this new chapter in her life. Sheβs dedicated herself for more than a decade of raising education levels. As she puts it in her bio, or as someone put it in a story on her, she has that education is the bedrock of democracy and economic sustainability, and that Ruza has worked to bring education to the forefront of corporate activism and giving. And that all started because she learned a lesson from her crucibles.
Gary S:
And then the last point, which I am stealing shamelesslyβ¦ Well, itβs not really shamelessly because Iβm saying that it was Ruza who created it. She wrote this in the sheet that we ask people to tell us about themselves before we do the show. Ruza said this about some advice she would give to listeners. This was her fourth point. I love this. I am going to shamelessly steal this in my personal life as I talk to people, just so you know. But she said this, the fourth point she made, βOne way to get through your crucibles, call on the good old-fashioned sense of spite,β quote, unquote.
Gary S:
Not what you would think it means, right, being spiteful toward people. This is what Ruza means by that. In spite of him or her or that or this situation or that situation, in spite of these things, youβre going to move on. Youβre going to keep at it. Youβre going to keep pursuing your life of significance. She adds at the end, βNothing is more gratifying than being underestimated.β It is my suspicion that that has happened fewer and fewer times in your life as life has gone on. You are a hard woman to underestimate.
Gary S:
Listener, thank you for spending time with us today on Beyond the Crucible. As always, Warwick and I would ask, if you like what youβve heard here, if youβve found hope, youβve found wisdom, youβve found some action steps you can take to get through your own crucibles from this, please click subscribe to the podcast so that you can not miss any other episode and help Warwick and I get the show out to more people. Until the next time we are together, remember what has shone through in this conversation with Ruza Markovic, and that is this.
Gary S:
Your crucible experiences are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning, as they have been for Ruza, to a new chapter in your story that can become the most rewarding chapter in your story. Why can it become the most rewarding chapter in your story? Because when you learn the lessons of those crucibles, you can apply them to what you do next, to the chapter you write next, and that chapter is the most fulfilling that youβll experience because in the end, it leads to a life of significance.
Leadership is not, in Daniel Harkavyβs eyes, a complex equation. Its essential elements are the decisions you make and the influence you cultivate. But putting that into practice, especially after a crucible, can certainly be challenging. In his new book, THE 7 PERSPECTIVES OF EFFECTIVE LEADERS, the president of Building Champions unpacks the mindset shifts that remove the either/or restrictions many leaders feel while simultaneously pursuing success and significance. From understanding current reality to crafting a vision rooted in your passions and putting together a team to bring that vision to reality, Harkavy offers a blueprint for pursuing your personal and professional goals with purpose and excellence.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. Iβm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Daniel H:
If you actually will take the time to write out a vision for your business, thatβs got two things going for it. Itβs clear and itβs compelling and it will cause you to risk and to stretch, and to just lay it out on the line, you have a burden or a passion, then youβre going to have a vision thatβs going to affect both belief and behavior and youβll sacrifice for it. And great leaders always have a vision that causes them to sacrifice because they are so passionate about what could be and what they see. So for me, Building Champions was about helping really successful people to win in business and in life. I didnβt like that it was either, or.
Gary S:
Did you hear that? Success in business and significance in life does not need to be an either, or proposition. In fact, according to our guest today, it never should be. You must pursue your bottom line and your vision with equal passion and purpose. Hi, Iβm Gary Schneeberger, the communications director for Crucible Leadership and the cohost of Beyond the Crucible. Our guest today is Daniel Harkavy, President of Building Champions, where he coaches business leaders in that very reality, you can have it all, as they say, when it comes to making a profit and making a difference. He explains how in a far ranging conversation with Warwick that unpacks the lessons from his new book, The Seven Perspectives of Effective Leaders. The first perspective, understanding current reality. Thatβs critical in any business context, particularly so youβll hear when youβre seeking to bounce back from a crucible.
Warwick F:
Well, Daniel, thanks so much for being here. Itβs a pleasure to have you, loved reading your new book, The Seven Perspectives of Effective Leaders, which Iβd love to spend some time on, but just tell us a bit about Daniel Harkavy. And one of the things I noticed that you love surfing, which coming from Sydney, Australia, surfing is a huge part of our culture. So yeah, just tell us a bit about your background, family and who you are.
Daniel H:
I would love to, I have to first off just confess that when somebody reads my full bio, Iβm not used to that. And itβs really long, and itβs actually a little nauseating to hear all of that. Iβm just sitting there going, βOkay, get to the end, get to the end.β
Warwick F:
I tried to punch it up a little bit as I was going.
Daniel H:
You read beautifully buddy, but you have a content marketing team and it all on the website. Daniel, who am I? 56 years old, grew up in Southern California, oldest of three, come from a Jewish background. My youngest of days will always be Jewish. Who I am, first and foremost, Iβm a man of faith and Iβve been married 32 years, just became a granddad and Iβm going to be a grandfather twice in February. So I became a grandfather in April which was my COVID gift. And then on Fatherβs Day, my son and his wife. So first off was my daughter and her husband. They made us grandparents with little Eleanor Jean, and then just a couple of months later, Dylan, my son and his wife, Krista for Fatherβs Day, let me know that we were going to do that again in February.
Daniel H:
Then I have Wesley. And so I have Allie, Dylan Wesley and Emily, and then weβve had nine other kids that have lived with us over the years, plus the spouses that have all been apart. So weβve got a crazy story. We started moving kids in back in β96 when our kids were five, three and one. And our kids, our extended family, seven of the nine have come to us with some challenges and theyβve all left us much better humans. So we praise God for that. And theyβre part of our bigger family.
Daniel H:
You read that I like to surf and Warwick you mentioned that, and I love it. Iβm addicted. Iβve been addicted since I was a kid. Iβm going to Mexico and Iβm counting down nine days with my son-in-law and my sons and some of the other kids that have been around. Weβre just going to surf warm water right after Thanksgiving. And then my wife and I and my daughters, I have my 17 year old, and then the 17 year old that lives with us now, last year and a half, weβll leave January 2nd. Weβll be over in Hawaii for all the good stuff that happens in Hawaii for the month. And all the while I get to run this really fun company called Building Champions, executive coaching company where we get to work with switched on leaders who want to make a difference at home and at work.
Daniel H:
And Iβm launching a new organization, we just set it up and itβs called Set Path. And one of the books that I wrote, Living Forward is all around life planning, because I believe that most people drift their way through life and business professionals, leaders get completely consumed with their careers and they might accumulate extreme net worth and wealth professionally, and then maybe financially, but many of them wake up in their 50s, 60s, and 70s and theyβre bankrupt in areas of their life that bring them true joy.
Daniel H:
So I always walk our leaders through life planning and thatβs what Living Forward is about. And weβre starting a movement called Set Path. Itβs a not-for-profit community benefit where weβre going to, in these crazy times of 2020, weβre going to create an army of mentors who can find goodness and belief in Americaβs young folks, these 18 to 28 year olds, weβre going to use a gamified more relevant form of life planning with them. And weβre going to go help a whole bunch of these young folks who are finding the world to be a little bit more difficult than I think it was when I was 22. So Iβm busy, Iβve got a couple llamas, a couple of cats, a couple of dogs.
Warwick F:
A couple of llamas. Not everybody has a couple of llamas.
Daniel H:
Well, and if they do their names arenβt Gary and Bruce. So that lets you know that weβre a little weird. I mean, Gary and Bruce are cool, theyβre cool.
Gary S:
I can attest that Garyβs a cool name, just for the record.
Warwick F:
We havenβt heard of a llama called Gary.
Daniel H:
My Gary has much bigger eyes than yours and heβs got these ears and he stinks, Gary. So I hope you have a little bit better hygiene than my Gary.
Gary S:
Well, indeed, indeed.
Warwick F:
Bruceβs sort of an Australian name. I donβt know if youβve ever seen any Monty Python over the years. So from an English perspective, everybody in Australia is named Bruce. Thatβs the whole Monty Python shtick, if you will. But yeah, thereβs a classic Monty Python skit of the University of Woolloomooloo, the philosophy department. I donβt know if youβve ever seen that one, look it up on YouTube. If you like Monty Python and youβve got a bunch of these people with Australian hats with the corks on it, and theyβve all got the Aussie accents and theyβre saying, βSo Bruce, what do you think we should focus on this semester? Should we do Aristotle or Kierkegaard or Socrates? I donβt know Bruce.β And it goes on, itβs just so funny. A lot of Bruceβs in Australia. So I digress.
Warwick F:
I want to get a little bit in the crucible background, but yeah, just looking a bit at Living Forward, I liked the tagline that you have of, donβt just drift through your days, design a life you love. And it is easy to be on autopilot and just drift along with the tide, and drifting is not a plan, drifting doesnβt lead to a legacy. Drifting just leads to aimlessness and if you end up at a good destination, itβs luck. As they have that old adage is, luck is not a plan or what have you. Thatβs a wonderful concept. So before we kind of get into your new book, I often find thereβs always a reason why we do things. And I think youβve done some number of different things, were you in the world of finance before you got into Building Champions or?
Daniel H:
Yeah, from age 20 to 30, I was in banking.
Warwick F:
So what led you to found Building Champions and weave in if it makes sense, just any crucibles that youβve gone through. Because I know for me, what I do grew directly out of a crucible. So have your crucibles informed what you do now and what led you to found Building Champions?
Daniel H:
Absolutely. I want to respect your guysβ style and how we go back and forth and I can be a storyteller. And I want you guys to just interject if I take too much time on that because itβs a really big question, Warwick itβs big. The front end is the short end, and that was in banking. I was in home loan, in mortgage banking and I did really well at it getting into it at age 20. 23, I was given the opportunity to lead a branch and a team. It was me and really two others, which then became one other. And from that foundation, I was fortunate to attract and coach and develop the best of the best.
Daniel H:
So out of an organization that had 202 of these folks, six of the top 10 came from my office. I could find talent. I could see goodness in them and I would actually begin coaching them while they worked for the competition before I ever offered them a job. And then what would happen is at some point, they would have a moment of dissatisfaction with their leader or their organization and they would actually ask me if they could come join me and it worked. And next thing you know, I ran the entire thing. I had offices throughout the Western United States. I was 27 28 years old making gobs and gobs of money for a young kid, no college degree, surfer, drummer from Southern California, but you know who I was, right.
Daniel H:
At age 22, I had a pretty big crisis of faith. I went to a Promise Keeper event. And the Promise Keeper events, they played different roles in my life. So Iβm in banking this whole time, at age 30, I went to another one. And I was at this Promise Keeper event in California. And it was there where I really felt like I heard I was chasing the wrong things. And I had come to faith at 22 and at 30, it was time for me to shift my focus from banking and money and all of it. And I was coaching really great people. I loved them. I didnβt know why I was supposed to quit. I just knew I was putting too much of my energy on my professional side and on my monetary side. I had three young, beautiful kids, beautiful wife, and I was traveling just about every day.
Daniel H:
So I took a one year sabbatical moved to Oregon, which is a whole another story in itself. And I put together three different business ideas that would enable me to really share love and goodness, and to stir up love and good works in the lives of people. And one was a surf shop, one was a bagel shop and the other one was this coaching thing. And back in β95, β96, this coaching thing, people were like, βWhat do you mean coaching thing? That makes no sense.β
Warwick F:
Right.
Daniel H:
But it was the coaching thing. I had a unique passport. And Iβve been involved in a restaurant. I helped launch a restaurant later on, and thatβs amazing. And I tried to open a surf shop with my kids a while ago and that didnβt work. But the coaching thing worked and really what I did was I built a company that enabled me to do the best part of my banking job, which was to see people, to see the goodness in them, to be a truth teller or an encourager, and then to help them to figure out where they wanted to go and then help them to identify the right steps to move from where they were to where they wanted to be.
Daniel H:
And I built models and frameworks, and again, attracted really great people. So now weβre an organization of about 40 people. Weβve been in business for 25 years. And as Gary read a list, weβve had the unique privilege of working with some pretty cool companies here in the U.S. as well as international.
Warwick F:
You know what I love about your story Daniel is as I read what Living Forward is about, you did just what you wrote about, you didnβt just drift through life. But you could have drifted through success, which nothing wrong with success, as we say in Crucible Leadership; success is okay, but it has to be success and significance, which we define as living on purpose, serving others. And I have a feeling you probably have a similar philosophy, but you could have just drifted through a life of continual upward success and financial remuneration all good, but you decided, you know what, Iβm not going to do that. I want to design a life around what I value and what I think is important. We all love when people actually walk the talk.
Warwick F:
And even before you wrote that book, you designed a life around what you really cared about. And thatβs unusual. I mean, how did you do that? Because thereβs a hundred people in your path that were really successful or probably thousands, but you chose the road less traveled, so to speak. How did you make that shift? Because this is before you wrote the book, Iβm guessing that you made the shift.
Daniel H:
Yeah. At the time I was 30 years old and again, making really good money. The company had just gone public two years prior, and the founding CEO had identified me as his successor and I was on a five-year grooming track to replace him. So I was on the career track. And these guys that I worked with, the founder is still just such an influential man in my life. He spoke so much goodness into me and offering me the job when I was really in my teens. And thatβs a whole another story. But it was at the Promise Keeper event where I really just felt like Iβm going to take this huge step of faith and Warwick to your point. When I put those business plans together, each and every one of them would allow me to be where I wanted, who I wanted, when I wanted to be there. So every one of them.
Daniel H:
And when I started Building Champions, it was a company started out of a home office. And it wasnβt a company that was intended to make me rich. It was a company that was intended to allow me to live out my calling and to make a difference in the lives of other people, but paying me well enough so I wouldnβt have money worries, but not make me rich. And I knew it would grow. I put together a vision where all right, weβre going to be in these five different verticals, and next thing you know, weβll be the premier coaching company around the world. But I was 30th year at the time, and Iβm like, βBut thatβll be when Iβm in my 50s.β I just want to be a present dad. And I want to surf. And I want to explore Oregon and uprooting my family from California and moved up to this crazy place.
Daniel H:
And if you want to talk about crucibles, starting this company, I almost failed significantly. My wife went into postpartum depression and it got bad and Iβm launching Building Champions, and Iβm now involved with the Promise Keepers up here and helping them to recruit volunteers and no job. And Iβm doing this Building Champions thing, but I really canβt leave my home because the two shall become one. We were struggling. And I was very close to just moving the van, packing the van back up and heading down I-5 back to Southern California where it was safe, get the company job, make the money again. And I had people offering me money to do it, but I just knew there was something in this.
Warwick F:
How did you prevent yourself from doing that? How did you not choose the I-5 head back to California route?
Daniel H:
I think what happens isβ¦ This is an interesting question. I think all of us, and I have no idea where our listeners are today from a faith perspective. So please listen to not judge, but maybe just to learn and understand my story. And my hope is that as an executive coach as Gary and Warwick and I continue in our conversation, weβre going to be talking business and Iβm going to be giving you some things around leadership that Iβve learned. But a question like that Warwick, it takes me back to the very core of who I am and the challenge that I think we have as men and women of faith and every human who has faith is there a God? Who is he? Who is she? How did they create us all? Everybody has faith, or weβre random accidents, thatβs faith.
Daniel H:
My faith is that God speaks to you. As a Christian, I believe God speaks to you. And donβt be hearing Twilight Zone music people. You get that nudge, thereβs something in you, and I knew I was supposed to do this, and I knew I was supposed to sacrifice. And I play a game with myself and thatβs whatβs the worst case. And I try to imagine the worst case. And if I can deal with the worst case, then I can move forward with confidence, which leads me to a business principle, which is the second perspective in my most recent book. And thatβs vision.
Daniel H:
If you actually will take the time to write out a vision for your business, thatβs got two things going for it, itβs clear and itβs compelling, and it will cause you to risk and to stretch, and to just lay it out on the line, you have a burden or a passion, then youβre going to have a vision thatβs going to affect both belief and behavior and youβll sacrifice for it. And great leaders always have a vision that causes them to sacrifice because they are so passionate about what could be and what they see. So for me, Building Champions was about helping really successful people to win in business and in life. I didnβt like that it was either, or.
Warwick F:
I love what youβre saying about win in both because I think of that song, obviously weβre all familiar with the Cat Stevens, Catβs in the Cradle song. And you donβt want to be that dad in our case where youβre so busy that you donβt know your kids. Iβm blessed. I went to Oxford like some other relatives, worked on Wall Street and then went to Harvard Business School. And thereβs plenty of Harvard MBAs from my generation who became CEOs and very successful. But I have three kids in their 20s. Because of COVID, theyβre all with us. And I got to be with them at their soccer games and their recitals.
Warwick F:
And just for those listening, just to reinforce what Daniel was saying, weβve got a couple of writers in our family that come from a journalistic background, as listeners would know an Australian media business. So we write cards a lot, and at birthdays, we go around the table saying, what do we most admire about whoeverβs birthday it is. And unfortunately or fortunately, some of them were pretty articulate, which is fun until itβs your birthday because then they go into great detail and specificity, not just, βI love you dad.β
Warwick F:
But anyway, the point is my boys who happen to be more athletic, they got my wife, Galeβs genes, not mine. Itβs amazing how every card, every year and theyβre now in their 20s, itβs like, βDad, you were there with me in my soccer game or my tennis game.β Every card, every year for years. So just being there, thereβs no substitute. By all means, be successful, but if youβre going to have kids, find a way to be there, maybe not every practice every game, but it canβt be none. And again, thatβs my own personal perspective. Everybody has to have their own value system, but you donβt want to live a Catβs in the Cradle song. If thatβs your life story, you will regret it on your death bed, if not before. So anyway, little off track but that makes sense.
Daniel H:
Itβs actually not off track. When you think about, all right, we show up and weβre doing a podcast and weβre having a conversation, and in it, you always trust that what youβre talking about is going to be the right message for the right people, at the right time. And here we are recording this a few days prior to Thanksgiving. Thatβs when this is happening. And when we look at what weβve been through this year. And we look at the relational hits that have taken place because of fear, because of loss, because of broken rhythms and broken routines, because of broken community and the fact that we donβt get the same energy inputs that we used to get when we are free. Talking about what matters most and what will bring business leaders the most fulfillment when they get to our age.
Daniel H:
There are people listening and they need to hear that. They need to hear that no matter what happens you play a very unique role in a few peopleβs lives and you canβt be replaced. And yet in your career you can be replaced and sometimes the replacement is actually better than you. So just get over it. But there are a few roles that you play and you canβt be replaced and I always like people to just imagine, itβs part of my living forward life planning process. But I say imagine that today you had the weird experience of parachuting in and watching your own funeral and itβs happening today. You know whoβs sitting in the first few rows. Those first few rows are people that you play a very unique irreplaceable role in their lives. Those first few rows, you play a very unique role in their life.
Daniel H:
Theyβre going to be given an opportunity to stand up and speak at your memorial. What are they going to say? And what I do and Iβve done this with thousands and thousands of leaders. We all go through this exercise and then we create a life plan. But what I tell them is, itβs fascinating how so many of us put all of our energy into rows, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, to where our relationship is so easily replaceable. And those people will get up and say really good things like, βThat guy was one of the sharpest business leaders Iβve ever met. He taught me more about strategy than anyone and you know what? He cared about me. He really cared about me.β And then what do we do at the end of the day, at the end of the week? What do we give to rows one and two? And people always give me the same answer, leftovers. Iβm like, thereβs something wrong with that. Thereβs just something wrong with that.
Daniel H:
So I agree with you Warwick completely being there and then continually for those who are married, who have a partner, that relationship itβs longstanding and enduring and it requires constant attention and fertilizing and nurturing and in todayβs times, a lot of marriages are taking hits. Iβm walking side by side with some guys that are incredibly successful business leaders. I had one fly in two weeks ago and we are talking about their living situation because theyβre a part of the four guys right now that Iβm walking through. And theyβre apartment dwellers with big old estates they donβt live in anymore. So itβs worth talking about right here right now because this is one of the most realities.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah. I think last thing Iβll say on this. I think everything you said is so profound as people invest in their business to have business success but youβve got to have the right people, the right resources, the right suppliers, all of that kind of thing. But the same is true in marriage, youβve got to invest in it, be as serious about your marriage as you are about your business and it can be successful. Itβs not rocket science. Thereβs a lot of books out there if you do listen to each other, forgive, do the things that your partner or spouse wants, not just what you want. Thereβs a lot of books that say similar things, just follow the plan. Itβs not rocket science but just invest, treat it like you would a business, be serious.
Warwick F:
But so I want to shift here to Seven Perspectives and really a way to bridge this. I love what you said. I think really itβs a core philosophy. I think of Building Champions perhaps itβsβ¦ You talk about self-leadership precedes team leadership and weβve actually talked quite a lot about self. So talk about that bridge of why that is such a key underpinning of your philosophy of self-leadership preceding team leadership.
Daniel H:
Yeah. So Iβm going to carry that even a little bit further forward. Self-leadership always precedes team effectiveness. Team effectiveness always precedes organizational impact. Self-leadership, team effectiveness, organizational impact. You donβt master one and leave it. Self-leadership, team leadership, organizational leadership, you swim in all three lanes every day. And what you need to understand is that for the most part, when leaders flame out itβs not because the root of their error, the root of their failure. Very rarely is it because they werenβt as effective as they could have been with team or organization. It has to do with how they lead themselves in those environments.
Daniel H:
So what you think, what you believe about yourself, about the future, about the team, about the business, about opportunity. What you believe and what you think impacts how you feel and how you feel alone impacts how you feel to others. So the book that I wrote, The Seven Perspectives of Effective Leaders, Iβve been in six years of conversations with leaders that rangeβ¦ and the books build with these guys and girls that all contributed. The chairman of Delta Air Lines. He was the former CEO of Home Depot. The chairman of the Daimler which is Mercedes-Benz, theyβre truck business. Thatβs a three pronged business Mercedes-Benz and Daimler has been a client for years. Very good friend. Chick-fil-A leaders. Iβve been in conversations.
Daniel H:
What I do is, when I was putting this idea and testing it together and I started to then work with organizations around the framework, I would say, βChallenge me, please tell me Iβm wrong.β A leaderβs effectiveness is determined by just two things. Listen to me, two things, the decisions they make and the influence they have, thatβs all. And I sat across the breakfast table with some and Zoom with the others and sitting in a conference room with others and they would think about it. And I had one leader who did challenge me a bit. And he said, βYou know what it is integrity?β And that was Horst Schulze. One of the founders of Ritz Carlton hotels. And of course integrity is required in order for us to be leaders.
Warwick F:
Right.
Daniel H:
But if you want to be effective, youβve got to make great decisions and have great influence and Horst just adds some great gems to the book but letβs boil this complex thing of leadership effectiveness. How do I flourish as a leader? Letβs just boil it down to two things, make really good decisions and influence the right people the right ways.
Warwick F:
And i love the examples youβve given the book of some like a woman who made fantastic decisions, very decisive but she didnβt really listen to anybody and had no influence. Somebody else had a lot of vision and a lot of influence but wasnβt quite so effective at implementation. So you make a very good case that you need to do both, make good decisions but you also got to bring your team on and along in the process and so profoundly true.
Warwick F:
And what youβre also saying about self-leadership, you look at a lot of the business failures or frankly thereβs failures in the non-profit and church world, itβs often the internal. Why donβt you listen to other people? Well, because maybe youβre arrogant, lacking in humility. Maybe you think you are so amazing and everybody else is the little people. They are not as brilliant as you are because theyβre not as successful. They donβt make as much money, they donβt have a CEO title so because of your own vanity and ego, of course youβre not going to listen to people.
Warwick F:
You could be, no offense to your group or me or anybody, you could be coached by the greatest people but if youβre locked into your ego, no book no webinar will solve that. You could say, I agree or disagree but you got to let go of that once itβs often self-mastery, maybe precedes external mastery. Youβve got to deal with the ego, this notion that youβre always right. You can be as Jim Collins talks about a lot, you can be humble, but yet driven so that, I donβt know, thatβs not an easy thing to coach. Iβm guessing. So hopefully you probably pick people who at least have some clay you can work with as opposed to granite that itβs like, βNo, I am the smartest guy in the room everybody else is dumb. Okay. Thatβs just truth.β
Daniel H:
Iβve worked with a few of those guys. Iβm usually not all that effective. And if I am thereβs always tears in it. So itβs an identity issue. And really what it comes down to is who do you believe you are? And why are you here?
Warwick F:
Right.
Daniel H:
Those who have that really solid, grounded identity they can then demonstrate something that I talk about in the book which is intentional curiosity; knowing that anybody and everybody has something good to contribute. And they just believe that and that humility breeds this intentional curiosity to where the best leaders walk into the room. And itβs almost like their presence says it. Their presence says, βHey I am passionate about the mission. Iβm all in. Iβve surrounded myself with the smartest people which is why I donβt need to have all the answers because I donβt so now letβs talk about the business at hand and letβs figure out what we need to be doing.β
Warwick F:
I love that phrase, intentional curiosity. And itβs hard to be intentionally curious unless youβre humble and realize you might know stuff, you may know a lot about certain areas we canβt know everything about every area. So smart people I think are intentionally curious. So I love that. So talk about some of these perspectives. Obviously I love the fact that you talk about itβs got to be grounded in reality. That sounds obvious but a lot of businesses say, βWell, letβs do this and letβs do that. I think thereβs a market opportunity. It might have nothing to do with who we are and our culture but Iβve analyzed it and thereβs an opportunity so letβs go but letβs ignore who we are in current realities.β Talk about, maybe this is obvious but so often the things that are obvious are not dumb so itβs not obvious.
Daniel H:
And thatβs where I live.
Warwick F:
Itβs not obvious to 90% of the people but talk about why it all begins with taking stock of current reality.
Gary S:
Right before you do that Daniel, Iβll add in that last phrase that you had work about current reality, that is so key to the context in which weβre having this discussion for the listeners, and that is crucible experiences, difficult moments, those kinds of situations, being able to assess the current situation youβre in and how you move forward that goes beyond, or perhaps pulls in from general leadership to leadership principles in a crisis, or a situation where youβve got to muster the ability to bounce back. So how does that apply what Warwick asked you in those crucible moments that we face?
Warwick F:
Yeah. Good point.
Daniel H:
Yeah. Great even fine tuning Gary for your audience. So current reality being the foundation for all business leaders, and thereβs a term that everyoneβs heard and thatβs the ivory tower leader. Well, the ivory tower leader, all it means is they lost grip with current reality. They sit in an ivory tower, they have no clue as to whatβs happening in the business therefore they make decisions that actually hurt the business hurt the team hurt the customers and their influence drops. So super simple, donβt become an ivory tower leader.
Daniel H:
So what that means is that you deploy intentional curiosity to really understand the business and what got the business to this point, you understand leading and lagging indicators. You really understand the landscape, the competitive landscape, the economic landscape, these days, the health landscape, the legislative landscape, both nationally as well as locally; you have to understand all of that. You need to be one of the most knowledgeable people about what makes the business, the business.
Daniel H:
And to your question, Gary, with regards to the crucible, when leaders fail, and theyβre the ones that bring the organization into the crucible, nine times out of 10, itβs because theyβre disconnected from current reality. They donβt understand their own capacity. They donβt understand their own resources. And then this connects to the other perspectives. They create shiny things that are exciting, that are not in alignment with perspective two, vision. So theyβre off vision. And then they make the mistake of getting the input from perspective four of their team. And they donβt create these perspective two strategic bets to best serve perspective five, the customer. Now, if youβre not thoroughly confused, youβre really brilliant.
Daniel H:
But each of those first five perspectives, intentional curiosity and discipline will enable you to avoid the crucible most of the time. You will avoid the self-induced business failures. Theyβre still going to be things that are happening. I sat with some friends on Saturday night that own a fantastic restaurant in Portland, closing the doors after several years, is a great success, this oneβs beyond their control. Now theyβre going to have to re-imagine from a vision perspective, what their future looks like.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I love how you talk about this because obviously strategic bets is part of putting the vision into action, but it has to be anchored in reality and tie the vision as I think you talk about it being the link. One of the things that I loveβ¦ I think you talk about Alan Mulally I believe, Ford and just how in some of the early meetings, so how are things going and I guess he had this red, yellow, green, whole paradigm, and people donβt tend to tell the CEO the truth. Itβs not like they lie, but, βHow are things going?β βTheyβre fine.β Which means, βThey will be fine once I fix some things, I hope because otherwise, if I tell you the truth, I might be fired or demoted or what have you.β And so, I read another book by Harvard Business School professor that talked that leaders should never accept yes for an answer. Mine for conflict kind of thing.
Daniel H:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
So talk about that a bit-
Daniel H:
Just real quick something just happened that all the listeners needed to hear because it doesnβt happen often. And what Warwick just did was he quoted my book with a book done by another Harvard professor. And remember Iβm a surfer drama kid with no college degree from Southern California. So Warwick and Gary you were looking for those profound little soundbites. Building Champions? Iβm going to use that one over and over. Thank you, Iβve taken you off-course.
Warwick F:
Iβm trying to remember the author. Is it Ricardo? I canβt remember. I have it on my bookshelf, but that is something that a lot of leaders, they donβt do that. They, βHereβs what we should do. What do you think?β βYeah. Okay.β Itβs like you canβt get accurate information just from spreadsheets and reports, which is what you write about. Youβve got to manage by walking around that old adage. Youβve really got toβ¦ itβs not easy to get good information from your people. I mean, maybe over a few years, once you built trust, but initially theyβre not going to tell you the straight scoop, I mean, thatβs just not the way it works.
Daniel H:
Well in the book, Frank Blake tells a story when he was the CEO of Home Depot and he just tells a story of how the people on the team, he says, they try to hide current reality from you because they donβt want to deliver bad news. And they think they can fix it on their self, but very rarely do they. So you need to breed this open culture where Mulally worked in. And it was truly his claim to fame was getting people to acknowledge where they were failing so that they could then resource, think and come together to create success. And that changed the organization. But you have to know the business. So you have to be grounded in current reality. And Iβm a GPS guy because I get lost unfortunately, quite often.
Gary S:
Amen Brother. Amen.
Daniel H:
Oh, itβs terrible. So embarrassing. Itβs so embarrassing. And as I get older, itβs getting worse. But anyways, Iβm a GPS guy and I use the analogy of GPS in Living Forward. I use the GPS here in The Seven Perspectives because just imagine current reality is your starting point. This is where we are today, November 2020. This is where we are. Now, nobody follows a leader whose vision is, βLetβs just stay the same or letβs strive for mediocrity,β or even better yet, βLetβs trade in the majority of our waking hours for the next three years so that we can kill an organization and go down in flames.β No oneβs following that leader.
Daniel H:
So leaders need to always breed this hope into their teammates, their key constituents, their clients, their customers, which is perspective two vision. Thatβs the destination point. And that creates what I call the opportunity gap. That opportunity gap then gets filled with strategic bets. Theyβre grounded, theyβre anchored, the team speaks into them, theyβre all around how to better serve the customer or to make the business better. Thatβs why we make strategic bets, but they move us from current reality. Theyβre those steps that direction to move us to that vision.
Daniel H:
Now let me bring that back to a question Gary asked with regards to current reality in the crucible. I assume youβre both familiar with the Stockdale paradox, correct?
Gary S:
Yes.
Warwick F:
Yes. But just explain to our listeners why thatβs so important and how that ties to current reality.
Daniel H:
Yeah. Let me do that. And then if we have time, letβs also talk about Luca in 2020 for leaders and 2021. Letβs talk about that. Admiral Stockdale was the highest ranking military officer to be a prisoner of war in Vietnam. And you mentioned Jim Collins. Collins talks about him in, I think Good to Great I believe he talks about the Stockdale paradox in that book and itβs so profound. But Admiral Stockdale is famous for not just he himself, being the highest ranking officer that endured the torture as a result of being a POW, there are many soldiers that say that he saved their lives when they were prisoners of war with him. And it was because he realized thatβ¦ this goes back to Victor Frankl work as well, but itβs because he realized that whatβs needed in order for us to survive is we need to acknowledge, and this is a leadership principle, we need to acknowledge that today sucks and weβre going to get our butts handed to us.
Daniel H:
Weβre going to be beaten and tortured, but weβre going to endure. Current reality today is going to suck. And the situation weβre leading our businesses in right now for many immense headwinds, itβs difficult. Itβs no bueno, but you have to acknowledge that you canβt like itβs all peaches and cream. The best leaders will say, βNo, this is really bad. And weβre going to have to make some tough decisions, becauseβ¦β the other part of the paradox, βWeβre leading to a better tomorrow. And this is what I see for us.β Now, leaders, donβt be talking about your vision to conquer the world between now and 2030, youβre going to be disconnected, but do be talking about how weβre going to be better in Q1 or Q2 or Q3.
Warwick F:
But I love how you say he was grounded in reality, because he said, βThe optimists didnβt survive.β You know, the pipe dream is, βYeah. Itβs going to be okay. And just ignore the reality of the pain that was coming in the torture.β Thatβs an amazing thing to say, because whatβs bad with optimism? Well, optimism is not grounded in reality, it doesnβt lead to survival. So thatβs pretty profound stuff that he said.
Daniel H:
And itβs very relevant for today. When the whole pandemic hit back in March, I was actually over in Germany that night the borders were closed and talk about a nightmare night. Thatβs another conversation. But I listened to a podcast done by a Navy SEAL trainer. And I remember listening to him. He was sitting out in some log cabin in Montana and he was talking about COVID and he was telling his family, βHey folks, weβre going to be in a shutdown world for two years.β And this was like March 16th. And Iβm thinking, βTwo years? Youβre a nutβ Iβm thinking two weeks, right? Iβm the idiot.
Daniel H:
But the reason he did that was because he knew we were in for a long roller-coaster. So this is the Stockdale paradox; the optimists would say, weβre going to be out by Christmas, right? Six years later, Christmas is coming in and theyβre not out. So what happens is they die from the loss of hope. Your heart dies. You just canβt do it anymore because of the emotional rollercoaster. Now Iβm talking to you about this pandemic that weβre living in and leading. Our people are dealing with overwhelm, with fear, with frustration, with apathy, with sadness, some with gratitude, some with hopefulness. But every week, Iβm with thousands of people in webinars where my team and I have coaches will lead these webinars and businesses.
Daniel H:
And Iβll always ask people to put in chat, βWhatβs the dominant emotion youβre feeling for the last two weeks?β I did it yesterday with these practitioners that serve autism clinics around the world. Itβs the same. And itβs been the same all year and weβre suffering, us humans are suffering. So what we canβt do is we canβt say, βDonβt worry, theyβre going to have a vaccine out by such and such date and thatβs going to make everything better. And then weβre going to return back to normal.β Actually, nobody knows. Now we do know weβre going to persevere. And we do know that weβre going to figure out how to move forward. We donβt know by when.
Warwick F:
And that gets back to what you were talking about earlier. Just this whole VUCA world which for those who might have heard it, a volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. Well, we are volatile, uncertain. It is complex. And it is ambiguous. Itβs about as VUCA a time in the history of the planet as that weβve had. So youβve got to lead in a way where thereβs so many uncontrollable unknowns and thatβs just the world, but Iβd like to shift to just some of these other ones, just one last thought on vision, somewhere in there, I think one of the leaders you quote, I think this is correct, said, I may have misread it, βDonβt seek profit, but seekβ¦β I donβt know whether it was meaning or passion. Was it something in there like that or?
Warwick F:
Weβre just not against profitability, but profitability as in what is our vision. Well, our vision is to increase earnings by 20% over the next five years. And thatβs our vision. Okay. Is everybody excited? Itβs like, βNoβ Thatβs not going to stir anybodyβs passion. And to just talk about whyβ¦ because that was anβ¦ was it in there? Because I didnβt read it that long ago.
Daniel H:
Itβs in there.
Warwick F:
Good.
Daniel H:
Yeah. I was with a leader where, heβs part of an executive team and itβs a very well-known company that I guarantee if you live in the U.S. you know who it is, I guarantee it. And thereβs a good chance that you are a fan of the product. So a member of the executive team was telling me about the vision of the business and what the executive team had been working on. And it had to do with earnings in the form of billions in the years ahead. And I just flat out asked him, I said, so tell me, How excited are you about that?β Heβs like, βIβm not excited about that at all.β I said, βWhy not?β He said, βWell, thatβs never been what excites me.β And I said, βOkay, leader, if it doesnβt excite you, how the heck is that going to engage the heads and the hearts of all these brilliant, wonderful people you lead?β
Daniel H:
Leaders, we need to understand profits are a requirement. We lead for-profit businesses. If you lead a not-for-profit well, you need to have enough on the balance sheet to pay the bills and operate and serve your mission next year, profits are a requirement. Revenue is needed. Itβs oxygen for business, but it cannot be the bulls-eye. Every time Iβve spent time with a leader who makes profit the bulls-eye, I will tell you, they will never engage the heads and the hearts of the best people. And they very rarely ever reached that profit. In the dotcom world, maybe. Maybe then you had that chance butβ¦
Daniel H:
I was walking with a financial planner this morning, heβs one of my colleagues, heβs a great great guy. And we were walking and we were talking about the difference between flipping houses and buying homes for a long-term investment and keeping them as rentals. Itβs a night and day different strategy, and it gets you night and day different results. Well, so does being a leader who is passionate about a mission and a vision that is going to create a better product, a better service, thatβs going to be good for humanity in some way, shape or form.
Daniel H:
When you lead with that or being the best team or having the best brand in the business, when thatβs the driver and you then create the right strategic bets and you surround yourself with the right people in the right seats, and you just work really hard. Spend time in those first five perspectives. Over time, the profits will come. But in a 10 year period of time, some years will be better than others.
Warwick F:
There is this compelling vision that motivates people. You could look at any successful business, whether itβs Walt Disney, Southwest Airlines, Chick-fil-A, they all have that in common. Whether itβs Southwest Airlines, we just want to make travel affordable to families to connect. Walt Disney, obviously entertaining families for generations, Chick-fil-A; they all have this compelling vision that their team members are excited about. Just in the last bit of time we have, weβve covered really the first few, these last severalβ¦ The team, the customer, your role, the outsider. I love certainly your role and the outsider, that really hit home. Especially those last two, perhaps just talk about some of those last few of the seven.
Daniel H:
Yeah. So in summary, youβve got the first five perspectives where you deploy intentional curiosity, thatβs current reality vision, strategic bets, the team, and the customer. You spend your days in those lanes with intentional curiosity part of your time, every day, trying to understand them so that your decision making and influence increases, then you find that seventh perspective, which is that outsider. Itβs that somebody who cares so much about you and your success and you being the best you can be.
Daniel H:
Itβs a mentor, itβs a coach, itβs a board member who is just non-biased. They want to see you succeed. Theyβre the ones that help you to make sense of the confusion in the first five. Then that informs that sixth perspective, which is your role, because you need to do what you used to do as well as you need to make the adjustments and the changes so that you can do what youβre going to need to do in the months and years ahead to be the leader the visionβs going to require you to.
Warwick F:
Thatβs absolutely true. And just the interplay between your role and the outsider. I mean, part of the role of the outsider is to help you do the things that only you can do. I remember somebody once told me, I donβt know if it was a former chaplain of the U.S. Senate, but they said something like, βDo the things that youβre great at, not the things youβre merely good at.β And that seemed like an arrogant statement, but I think we all have areas where we can be great at. And so, βOkay, youβre good at that. Well, thatβs great. Well, how about delegating that?β βWhat? Iβm delegating things that Iβm good at?β βUh-huh.β
Warwick F:
Because obviously this is something that you advocate in your book, Iβm sure your folks that you coach, by just helping them understand thereβs a bunch of things you can do that others can do it as well, if not better, but what are the things that only you can do, and it sounds so simple, but yet you get caught up in the tyranny of the urgent and itβsβ¦ People hate to delegate, right? Because if you delegate it, it probably wonβt get done the way you would. It will definitely wonβt, and people hate that. βBut thatβs not the way I do things.β βOkay, but does it work?β βYeah, but itβs not the way.β βBut why does that matter?β I mean, obviously you have these coaching conversations probably every day, multiple times a day.
Daniel H:
Every day.
Warwick F:
I see that.
Daniel H:
Yeah. Youβll hear me say over and over, βSay no to the good, so you can say yes to the great.β
Warwick F:
And I love that. I love that phrase and really, the outsider. I mean, itβs funny, similar path, maybe on a different scale, but Iβm also a certified executive coach. Iβm on two non-profit boards and I love both those roles. For me itβs a good fit, because I love asking questions, but just the role and theyβre both within your definition of the outsider as I see it, both the coach, board member, mentor. And theyβre just so, so important. You donβt want a bunch of country club buddies of yours on your board. Thatβs normal in our society, but itβs stupid.
Warwick F:
One of the stories I share a bit elsewhere on the podcast and book to come out next year, Crucible Leadership that Iβve written. Early on in my newspaper days, as listeners would know, I grew up in this very large family business, newspapers, TV, radio stations. It was a massive company. Come back from Harvard Business School, sit in on a board meeting. I was 26 at the time. And a bunch of very smart people on the board from successful folks, at least some of them were, from outside. And theyβre had just been a takeover bid by Rupert Murdoch,of one of the other big media companies. And we came in a bit too late because we werenβt quite as nimble as he was.
Warwick F:
And so we picked up some TV stations, but then because there was some deal where a TV station and newspaper, you canβt have it in the same market. We bought something knowing that regulations would force us to sell it, which didnβt seem to me such a smart move. Thereβs always VUCA, but sometimes thereβs certainty. So you donβt want to do something when itβs certain that itβs a bad decision and thereβs no ambiguity. And so we as a media company, weβre going to be selling TV stations, which seem to be idiotic at the time because weβre talking about the eighties back when things are going gangbusters in newspapers and TV.
Warwick F:
The point of the story is not one person asked a tough question. One of those people was a CEO of a company that had earnings increases at 15, 20% per year, for years. So clearly the guy must have had some degree of business savvy. And Iβm 26. So what was I going to say? I wasnβt a board member. I was just invited to sit in there because my dad had died and I was representing his shareholding and that was a searing experience. I said to myself, βThatβs never going to be me,β but thatβs normal. So without going on one of the two non-profit boards Iβm on, Iβm good friends with the lead pastor of our church and a private school my kids went to, but Iβm very polite, but I ask tough questions. I donβt care who likes or doesnβt like it. Anyway, you get the idea.
Daniel H:
Yeah, thatβs a gift.
Warwick F:
Often that comes out of searing experiences, which it did for me. So I mean, you and I agree on that, but do you feel like thatβs rarer than it needs to be, whether itβs a board member or coach, thatβs willing to say, βOkay, I may get removed from the board.β You probably have conversations with your clients saying, βIβm probably going to get fired by this major client. Weβve got 12 coaches coaching all throughout the organization. And if I make this point, about an 80% chance, Iβm going to get fired.β You probably are in that spot. So talk about what itβs like to be in that spot as an advisor and maybe about a CEO who is willing to hire somebody like you thatβs going to tell them stuff that they absolutely donβt want to hear. So talk about that whole world of the outsider.
Daniel H:
So the best leaders, like we talked about earlier are humble, and they know they can be biased. And what theyβre looking for is theyβre looking for somebody with the courage to challenge their thinking. And the way the seventh perspective came to be, you guys need to know, the book used to be, the model was the five perspectives. Then it went to the six perspectives and then I wasnβt ready to write it until it became the seventh, the perfect number and the way the seventh came to be was I was reflecting on the last couple of days of work. And I just thought, βMan, these different executives have come in. They just want to think with me.β
Daniel H:
And what happens is, Iβm the guy and I remind myself all the time; mission first, people always. You donβt get those two confused. So my mission, their mission has to come first. My mission is to help them to be the best they can be. Now I might upset them and Iβm going to do my best to do it in a way that doesnβt, because I donβt want their executive functions to go into overload. And then all of a sudden their limbic system goes crazy and Iβm no longer valuable to them. But I do need to truth tell, and I need to ask questions. Thereβs a saying, and I love it. And that is, you can tell a man is brilliant, not by the answers he gives, but by the questions he asksβ¦ Amazing, right?
Daniel H:
I need to ask the right questions to get them to really reflect. And then when I hear that theyβre out of alignment when they donβt have integrity with what theyβre talking about versus what they wanted to do a month, a year earlier, I need to be the mirror. That one that says, βHey, listen, you may not like this. So please just understand Iβm doing this because I really care about you and the organization, but the decision youβre making, Iβm going to ask you, are you compromising here or there? Because what you said, itβs not jiving for me. So just help me to understand.β And it has to do with how I do it. Thereβs empathy. Thereβs respect.
Daniel H:
I go in with a bit of timidity and like, βHey, this isnβt comfortable. I know you may not like it, but please know Iβm for you. Breathe, breathe. Okay, here we go.β And when I was young, it really scared me. And itβs still scary, I donβt want to get fired, but I would much rather get fired for telling the truth than get fired.
Warwick F:
If you got fired in service of the client, youβd be okay with that?
Daniel H:
Thatβs right. I mean, youβd sleep well at night.
Warwick F:
And thatβs so true. I agree with you, asking the right questions and I live in the world of questions. So thatβs my natural language.
Daniel H:
Yeah, me too.
Warwick F:
Itβs better than hammering them with a sledgehammer. Itβs not that I donβt think those things inside my head, but itβs often not effective. And yeah, Iβm blessed at Oxford, Harvard business School. The reason those places are so effective is all about the questions. At Oxford there are lectures, but nobody really goes to them. At least not in the humanities that I did. And itβs about some of the smartest professors on the planet asking you mind-bendingly tough questions or Harvard business school.
Warwick F:
Youβve got these great professors like Michael Porter, competitive strategist. He was one of my professors a lot of years ago and Competitive Strategy was one of the top selling books in the corporate world. Well, he is a smart guy, but he sits there asking questions. Okay. Whatβs the problem with this case? What are the issues? Question after question after question, he precious few observations. The power of questions is so huge. So you meld all these to getting one of the things you talk about with these seven perspectives, as we summarize, you talk about it being an ecosystem. So itβs not just a paint by numbers. Yes, thereβs an order, but talk about why this whole thing is really an ecosystem.
Daniel H:
Iβve worked with plenty of leaders over the years where theyβre really good at three or four of the perspectives, because those are the ones where theyβve got the training. They have the unique skill, theyβve got the passion, they find them to be interesting, but then they delegate or just ignore the others. And if they do theyβll get into trouble and they may not nosedive the business. But what they may be doing is preventing the business from being all it could be. They may be preventing themselves from being the most effective, most respected, most brilliant leader that they could be. So I was asked yesterday, βIs one perspective more important than the other?β Iβll tell you, if you donβt have current reality, itβs difficult to build on. That one you have to have.
Warwick F:
You are building on quicksand, if you donβt have current reality.
Daniel H:
Yeah. But once youβve got that, then Iβm going to say, all of them are pretty darn important and you donβt get to neglect any of them. So you need to have intentional curiosity and rigor and discipline with the next four. You need to be connected to the team and listening to them and asking them, what do they need and what do they think? Youβre not telling them what to do when youβre trying to make the best decisions and influence. Youβre trying to understand it from their perspective that informs you. Now you know.
Daniel H:
Then you can ask them questions and help them to see things differently. The same with your customers, not just where theyβre at today, but where theyβre going and what they need from you. Whatβs good with your product or service, what can improve. So I say, theyβre all important. You need to spend time on each and every one of them. And itβs a daily dance and youβre going to be adjusting.
Warwick F:
They talk about a three legged stool, this is a seven legged stool. You need all seven legs. Leaving physics aside, in the world of business and life, if you donβt have one of those legs standing, failure is a distinct possibility. So you got to do all of them.
Daniel H:
So true.
Gary S:
Speaking of understanding the current situation and his role, the captain has turned on the fasten seat-belt sign so that we can begin the process of landing our conversational plane. Before we do that though, Daniel, I would be remiss if I did not give you the chance to let our listeners know how they can learn more about you and Building Champions. So where can they find out more about you and the work you do?
Daniel H:
Thanks Gary. And thanks for helping us to land the plane. I think the energy between the two of us or the three of us, excuse me, I think we would have just kept going and Iβd get myself in trouble. So, buildingchampions.com, Daniel Harkavy on LinkedIn, on Facebook, the book, thesevenperspectives.com, that website will give you an assessment. A free assessment, youβll have access to different tools and you can buy the book there at a greatly discounted rate from Baker books, our publisher, at the bottom, you can order it from everybody, Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, et cetera. But right now, while youβre listening to this, Bakerβs probably still offering the best price. Thatβs how you get ahold of me. You guys, itβs been awesome to be with the two of you. I really appreciate it.
Gary S:
Well, as we do every episode, when we conclude, I try to give, and this was a robust conversation, I usually try to give three takeaways for listeners. Itβs not the perfect number, but itβs the perfect number to get us to get the plane on the ground as it were. So I think there are three really good tips that came out of this episode about how to apply Danielβs perspectives to come out of crucible. Number one, you have to lead yourself before you can lead your team. If you canβt lead your team, you will not get results. So ask yourself, what do you believe about yourself? How does that impact your thoughts about others? How does it affect the decisions you make, develop intentional curiosity. We talked a lot about that in this episode, embrace humility, both Daniel and Warwick talked about. If you pour into yourself, then impact can pour from you and thatβs critical in moving beyond your crucible, which is the title of this podcast after all.
Gary S:
Number two, understand current reality, know what makes your business the business, cast a vision for moving forward in the midst of that reality, especially after enduring a crucible and as you move forward, take the steps necessary to begin the bounce-back from your crucible, make strategic bets on that vision that can be executed in the current reality. And the third point you heard some mention of the Stockdale paradox.
Gary S:
The third point I believe is hang on to the Stockdale paradox and Iβm well aware listener. That sounds like a paradox in and of itself. How do you hang onto a paradox? Well, hereβs the paradox as spoken to help you understand how to do that. It was discussed here, but we never really laid all the words out. Hereβs what the Stockdale paradox sums up. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they may be. Grasp onto that. Walk in that as youβre looking to bounce back and move beyond your crucible.
Gary S:
Until the next time that weβre together listeners, thank you so much for spending this time with us. Warwick and I have a little favor to ask you if you would, if youβve enjoyed this robust conversation with Daniel, please click subscribe on the podcast app that youβre listening to us on now, share that with some friends of yours if you think they can get something out of this and until the next time weβre together, remember this, we talked about it here. We talk about it every week.
Gary S:
Your crucible experience is real. It is your current reality. If youβre in a crucible, there is perhaps a no more pressing current reality than your crucible. If youβre in the midst of one, but itβs not as painful as it is. Itβs not the end of your story. In fact, it can be the beginning of a new story, a better story, a new chapter in your life and why itβs a beginning and why itβs better is that it leads you to what we talked about here today. Something more important than just your bottom line. It leads you to a life of significance.
In this special 50th episode of BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE, host Warwick Fairfax and co-host Gary Schneeberger take a look back at some of the most powerful guests who have shared the trials and triumphs of not just surviving their crucible experiences, but moving beyond them to leadΒ lives of significance. Youβll meet inspiring men and women from all walks of life who have overcome physical, emotional and professional setbacks, failures and tragedies to live lives on purpose,Β rooted in their passions and talents. From the Hollywood actor/writer/director whose first film flopped so badly it was almost his last to the young woman selling her gourmet cookies out of her driveway, from the motivational speaker who grabbed the brass ring only to realize it was lead to the former NFL quarterback who couldnβt live up to the MVP career of his father but has carved out a post-football calling that helps marriages and families, youβll find hope and healing in these conversations filled with wisdom and vulnerability.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. Iβm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
Well, welcome indeed listener to this monumental, dare I say, episode of Beyond the Crucible. That was, and will soon be again, Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership and the host of the show. I am Gary Schneeberger, the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership and the co-host of the show. And I say monumental because this, Warwick, is our 50th episode. Can you believe it?
Warwick F:
No, I canβt. I mean, itβs hard to believe that we started this a little over a year ago in November. 50 episodes. I mean, who knew? Thatβs just staggering, hard to believe.
Gary S:
And what we wanted to do, right? Because in Hollywood, when a TV show has a hundred episodes, they have a party and they have a cake. And unfortunately we canβt share cake together right now. But we wanted to mark the occasion with a special 50th episode. And the idea behind the 50th episode that weβre going to go on as we go through is talk about some of the most insightful guests, the guests that we remember perhaps the best over the time that weβve been doing the show, as you said, for just over a year. And one of the things, Warwick, that I found when I was doing some research, even though Iβm not a numbers guy, how many hours of content do you think over the 49 episodes, now 50th, but how many hours of content do you think weβve had?
Warwick F:
I donβt know. Like 30, 40?
Gary S:
Bravo, bravo. By the time this episode is finished, we will have about 40 hours of content since starting Beyond the Crucible. And think about that for a minute. That consumes the traditional work week. Right? The traditional American work week is 40 hours. We have an American work weekβs worth of shows of this podcast, and thatβs a pretty good reason to celebrate, I think.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah, itβs a huge milestone. And obviously weβll talk about just the diversity of guests and backgrounds and experiences. I mean, Iβve learned a lot as Iβve listened to the folks who weβve been interviewing and the dialogues weβve had. And yeah, itβs just been a tremendous learning experience for me and Iβve loved being part of it.
Gary S:
Yeah. To your point about diversity, weβve had business leaders, community leaders, non-profit leaders, thought leaders, adventurers and academics who have shared the microphones with us. Weβve had a Hollywood actor, producer, writer, director on one side. Weβve had a young woman who sells cookies out of her driveway. Thereβs such diversity. But the one thing that they all have in common, a couple of things they all have in common, theyβve either been through a crucible or crucibles, sometimes very traumatic trials and tragedies and failures and setbacks, or theyβve been through maybe a couple of crucibles that maybe werenβt as intense, but they have a perspective on how listeners can bounce back from crucibles. And thatβs really been, as you look at the portfolio of guests weβve had, that it all boils down to, right, the vision that was hatched when the show was started of helping people get beyond their crucibles, offering hope and insight on how to do that.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And itβs just remarkable to me. I mean, you mentioned diverse. Weβve had men, women. Weβve had people of all different backgrounds, races, all different countries, have a huge variety of crucibles from abuse to abandoned orphan to Navy Seal being paralyzed in a training accident, former NFL quarterback, business challenges. A huge variety of diversity in every form of that word. But youβre right, thereβs a couple of things that weβll talk about that is similar in every guest weβve had. Theyβve not let the crucible, as you say at the end of every podcast, not let the crucible be the end of their story, but an exciting new chapter. They have not given up. They have not let a tragedy define them. They have hope. Theyβve not let grudges or anger sometimes. Obviously in the case of abuse, thereβs a lot of grounds for anger. Theyβve not let any of that hold them back.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
That the traits of what it takes to overcome a crucible are very similar despite the radically different experiences and the diversity of the guests. That was what is probably one of the single most amazing things to me, single most learning points from myself personally.
Gary S:
For sure. And one of the things I thought of right before we got on here, and we havenβt really talked about this in a year. I mean, we havenβt talked about this since we just started. But do you remember back when we first started the show and there was concern on our parts that, oh my goodness. So what makes the podcast interesting is that people donβt talk about failure much. So, weβre going to have content that other people donβt have. But wait a minute, if people donβt talk about failure much, how are we going to find guests? And I remember early on there was a concern on our parts that we were going to β¦ how are we going to find guests? And that has not proven to be a problem. I mean, we are 32 guests into the show so far, and as you said, great diversity in their experiences. And then that common denominator of not giving up, of persevering through the crucible.
Warwick F:
And what we really appreciated about our guests is theyβve been willing to be vulnerable, to go there. I mean, thatβs the core of Beyond the Crucible, the core of the book which since the book Crucible Leadership which will be released next year, birthed Beyond the Crucible. But thatβs the core idea. Iβve being very open about my own experiences growing up in a large family media business. And after my failed $2.25 billion takeover, the trauma that β¦ maybe traumaβs too strong a word, but certainly the challenges it posed in my life. And Iβve tried to be open and vulnerable about what I went through and what Iβve learned, but I guess Iβve also been very open.
Warwick F:
And one of the things itβs important to me is I donβt want to just hear what happened. I want to hear how they felt in the tragedy, not just to dwell on the pain. So, when they talk about the hope they have now, the listener understands thereβs a sort of a yin and yang, two different sides of the same coin of the pain and the tragedy, but then the hope and the joy thatβs come later. So, hearing the emotion behind the story is really important to us. And Iβd say every guest has gone there. Every guest has been open and vulnerable about what they felt and their emotions.
Gary S:
Absolutely. And in fact, and weβll hear some of them as we talk through the guests that weβre highlighting here, weβll hear some of them express that for the first time, in some cases, in having the conversation with us, theyβve realized certain points about their journey back from the crucible.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah, thereβs one thing I wanted to add. And obviously weβve been thinking about Beyond the Crucible. Itβs interesting to look back on how did we get here. How did we get to Beyond the Crucible? And itβs really, as I was reflecting last night, I said a thought quite a bit about vision and how visions can grow.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
And I remember, as listeners will know in 2008 when at my church in Annapolis, Maryland, where we live from Australia, but we lived here for, gosh, maybe 30 years, a long time. And I was giving a message about my story and like a 10-minute message to illustrate some sermon point. And I figure who could relate to my story? Failed media mogul, nobody knows anything about Australia in the U.S., certainly not about Fairfax Media. And somehow my story resonated and I was open and vulnerable in what I went through, what I learned.
Warwick F:
Then I start writing Crucible Leadership about anchored by my story and stories of my family and some inspirational historical leaders. And then that grew into, well, to sell a book or to get it published, youβve got to have a brand. So, then I have a great branding and marketing team at Signal that helped with the website and blogs and social media. You came on board with ROAR and helped me with public relations and now just with the book and so many things, with the podcast. Keri came on board to help selling the book and marketing strategy for the book. All of this grew. And then, as you say, about a year ago, we had this conversation, well, how about a podcast? Iβd been on some other peopleβs podcasts.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Iβm somewhat of a reserved person. So, okay, well, letβs see how this works, and it works. So, the point of the story is, one of the things Iβve learned is visions grow. You started off with I want to get a book published. I guess I need a brand. Well, I guess I need a blog. Okay. Social media. Iβm not somebody that posts a lot on social media just in terms of my generation, something I really have an excessive need to do, but I realize itβs important to get your message out, and I want to get my message out, so okay. Podcast. Okay, thatβs another good way of talking about your message. So, this wasnβt some big grand plan other than publish the book. So, I think for listeners, when you have a vision, realize it can grow and thatβs okay. And your comfort zone can move. And just step by step, bit by bit, visions can grow, and thatβs good.
Gary S:
Yeah. And from the perspective that we had starting out that I mentioned that, geez, okay, people donβt like to talk about failure. How are we going to find people to talk about failure? We did. And not only did we find people to talk about their crucibles in honesty and transparency in detail. But one of the things that we have done to help guide us, a roadmap to get us through this episode, is that we discovered what Iβve called a three by three approach to what weβve accomplished at Beyond the Crucible and how weβre going to go through this episode, and that is we found basically three kinds of shows. We produce three kinds of shows, one each week, here at Beyond the Crucible.
Gary S:
One kind of show is about peopleβs crucibles. And thatβs the vast majority of the shows that we do are people who have had crucible experiences telling their story of how they have bounced back, moved beyond those crucible experiences, and are now pursuing and living lives of significance. Thatβs the one kind of show. Second kind of show are we added this a little bit later on in the process earlier this year. Actually, since this is January 5th when youβre hearing this, that was later last year. Perspective guests, guests who maybe donβt have the most searing crucibles, to keep up with the metaphor of fiery furnace that melts metal, but they have a great perspective to help people who are coming back from their crucibles understand how to do that. So, weβve got crucible guests and prospective guests.
Gary S:
And then from the outset, weβve had these shows, Warwick, that itβs just the two of us having a conversation. And the reason behind that, the reason that we wanted to go there from the start, is based on what you talked about just a little bit ago, is your journey in coming to start the podcast was your own crucible and your own experience in unpacking what you learned as you came back from your crucible. So, having those three kinds of shows has made, I think, for a diverse set of circumstances and conversations, donβt you think?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Iβve really enjoyed just the diversity of the guests and talking about that. But then weβve had thought leaders, and weβll talk about some of them later, like Professor Joseph Badaracco of Harvard Business School. And heβs written a couple books that weβll chat about, Leading Quietly and Step Back. And sometimes as we talk to either guests who have crucibles or perspective guests, theyβll say something, and weβll chat about this later. But Professor Badaracco talked about quiet leadership versus heroic leadership. And it occurred to me, I grew up with a heroic leadership model.
Warwick F:
So, we ended up doing a perspective, Iβm sorry, a conversation between the two of us unpacking more about heroic leadership. And weβve done ones on vulnerability and significance and a whole bunch of them. So, sometimes there are things that we really want to talk about. Sometimes an idea has come out of a conversation that weβve had with a guest, and we think we want to explore this more. So, itβs really a great place where we can just go deeper on some issues between the two of us that are just either come from a guest or just come from a thought weβve had.
Gary S:
Right. And those three kinds of shows, if we back up to the first kind of show, thatβs why I call it a three by three, right? Thereβs three kinds of shows. And in the first kind of show, weβve identified, generally speaking, that there are three kinds of crucibles. In those crucible shows, we generally big picture, big tent. There are folks who have had physical crucibles. Theyβve had injuries, theyβve had illnesses, theyβve had something that has limited them, challenged them physically. Thatβs the first of the three kinds of crucibles.
Gary S:
There are folks whoβve had emotional crucibles, and a lot of our guests have been there, whoβve struggled with something that happened to them, something that maybe they caused to happen, but itβs more emotional than it is physical. And then thereβs professional crucibles, those things that are failures and setbacks in the workplace. And many times, and weβll discover that as we go through and we start to begin to unpack here in a little bit, some of the guests that have really stood out to us, many times thereβs overlap, right? These arenβt rigid, everybodyβs in an iron box. Right? Thereβs a lot of overlap between the physical crucibles, the emotional crucibles and the professional crucibles.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, thatβs so true. Because very often Iβd say almost always folks that have had physical crucibles, and weβll discuss this in a minute, they canβt always change the physical side, but the emotional side is also devastating. Coming to grips with, as one of our guests or a number of them talk about, a new normal is how do you emotionally recover. Thatβs as big a part for those with physicals. So, physical, emotional, even those with professional. Very often professional crucibles have to do with identity. Who am I? Do I have my identity just in my career? So, there is overlap between these three. I mean, thereβs the primary crucible, which is how weβve chosen to separate it, which makes sense. But there is overlap between the three categories, there is no question.
Gary S:
Absolutely. And speaking of that, listener, thank you for listening to our wind up here, for paying attention as weβve, in the baseball metaphor sense, weβve wound up for the pitch, because now weβre about to really pivot into talking about some of those shows, some of those guests, and some of those conversations that have really stood out. And thatβs been the fun part about planning for this 50th episode is going back and reviewing the content that weβve created. And weβre going to start talking about physical crucibles, those things that, in many cases, can be the most dramatic, right, because youβre talking about a life that is restricted, is changed. As we say a lot, the trajectory has changed because of a physical illness, ailment, injury, something along those lines.
Gary S:
And the first person, the first guest that weβre going to talk about in that physical crucible perspective, is a young woman named Michelle Kuei. And Michelleβs story, just a brief setup, is that she was in a tragic car accident when she was 11 in Taiwan where she grew up. And what happened to her is that it left her with physical and emotional scars that sheβs dealt with that plagued her for 30 years. But her body stopped growing after the crash, and that made her really get consumed by this idea that she was not normal. She was in her thirties, still the height she was, still the body size and type she was when she was 11. And that caused a whole bunch of pain and fear and retreating from life a little bit.
Gary S:
And it was only when she took up hiking that she ended up beginning to burst through that, a 30-year journey. But she took up hiking, and that ended with her, youβll remember this well, Warwick, she ascended Machu Picchu, and that was when she learned that she wasnβt just normal, which was her goal all her life. She just wanted to be normal. She realized, nope, Iβm not just normal, but that she had extraordinary in her. That episode, to me, stands out as one of the most revealing and inspiring that weβve had.
Warwick F:
Yeah, thereβs no question. She is probably one of the most inspirational guests that weβve had. Because thereβs the contrast with the pain, physical and emotional, and her countenance now which is so full of joy. And sheβs all about empowering people. And she has her own coaching, Elevate Life Coaching, where she tries to help people discover their strength and inner beauty and overcome the fear of judgment and internal negative self-talk. But what is amazing is this has been decades in the making where she is. A really important lesson for listeners is donβt expect to bounce back overnight, or even in a year or two years, necessarily. It can be painful.
Warwick F:
Now the physical, I donβt know that that changed that much after her accident. She is four foot something. She has crutches. When she go to the grocery store, she canβt reach things on the top shelves. She has to use a crutch to knock it off or have a hopefully good Samaritan help her out, which is just tedious. I mean, thatβs not something you donβt do that often. Itβs just frustrating.
Warwick F:
But youβre right. That whole Machu Picchu episode, I think we have it. I donβt know if itβs seven, eight minutes on YouTube. Itβs really well worth listeners having a look at just that scene. And itβs this Inca town at the top of this mountain in Peru, and the trail is very steep. And there she is and her crutches, and the last part of that journey is like 50 steps, really steep, and sheβs climbing up. She canβt use her crutches because it β¦ Sheβs has to crawl on her hands and knees. And sheβs got a whole team with her, people that she didnβt know before, but theyβre just cheering her. βMichelle, Michelle.β Kind of like team Michelle, right? Well, actually, thatβs what they called it afterwards.
Gary S:
Yep.
Warwick F:
So yeah, just her whole countenance now. And sheβs written a book, Perfectly Normal. And so, there was a time in which she felt bad about herself, that she felt like she wasnβt pretty like the other young girls when she was growing up and dating and all of that. I mean, friendships. So much felt like it just wasnβt easy anymore. But now she just has this incredible countenance of joy and wanting to empower people. And yeah, she is really inspirational. The physical was hard, but the emotional, thatβs been a lifelong journey to try to combat.
Gary S:
Correct. And Iβve been blessed since that episode. It was our 19th episode. So, Iβm not going to do the math cause Iβm bad at math. But Iβve been blessed since then to become friends with her, and weβll talk semi-frequently in email and text. She sent me a great Thanksgiving card that was just so sweet and so kind. And one of the things that she said in that episode that continues to stick in my mind, she said this, βEach and every one of us is a gift to this world.β
Gary S:
And when she came and she realized that, that was really when it all started to fall together after those 30 years of what was kind of an emotional physical wilderness for her. And what she was able to do the moment where she realized that is that she realized that this is how I am and this is who I am. She realized, this is how she was going to look for the rest of her life. She can accept this is how sheβs going to look and she can embrace every part of herself, because thereβs something else other than what we see on the outside.
Michelle Kuei:
In order to overcome your emotional challenge, many times you have to be able to recognize it. You have to allow it. You have to accept it. And my condition, my physical challenge, was something I needed to accept. This is how I am, and this is who I am. This is how Iβm going to look for the rest of my life. I can sit here and not accept it and keep having resistance, keep having that fighting emotion, and keep wanting to understand why has it done to me and keep wanting, exploring in that victim thinking mentality or mindset, or I can accept that this had happened. Itβs very unfortunate, but it happened. I can except this is how I look, and I can embrace every part of me because thereβs something else other than, greater than, what we see on the outside. Itβs not just the physical appearance. Itβs not just what we see externally. Itβs whatβs going on in the inside. Thereβs a light thatβs inside each one of us. Thatβs what we need to accept.
Gary S:
How beautiful is that?
Warwick F:
It is. I mean, speaking of beauty, really, she has this incredible inner beauty. Her soul is just radiant, is just remarkable. And people know the challenges that she has been through physically. And because she has so much joy, it gives other people hope. Itβs like, βHow does she do this? How can she be so joyful? How can she accept who she is and what sheβs been through?β But she has in so many ways. I mean, she has this inner light that really shines brightly and elevates and uplifts everybody she comes in contact with. She is a true inspiration.
Gary S:
Yeah. Her energy, her optimism, her β¦ Iβm friends with her on Facebook and her energy and optimism that she does with her community and just her friends is so infectious. You can be in a bad mood, hop on Facebook, see something that Michelle Kueiβs posted. and youβre like, βOkay, Iβm not in such a bad mood anymore,β because sheβs just got so much positive energy and so much hope. She offers so much hope.
Gary S:
And that is also the story of another physical crucible guest that weβve had on offering hope. And thatβs really what we try to do with all of our guests whoβve had crucibles, how did they find hope? And Ryan Campbell is another young person, a man in his twenties, who went through a horrific physical crucible and as emerged on the other side encouraging people, offering hope inspiration to them. And he is, you mentioned it early on, Warwick. You mentioned that we had people from lots of different nationality backgrounds. I think Australians number one among the backgrounds weβve had, and Ryan is a young man from Australia. So, I donβt know if thatβs coincidence or youβreβ¦
Warwick F:
Yeah, I wonder how that happened. Who knew?
Gary S:
But Ryanβs story, is so fascinating and so inspiring. He became the youngest pilot to fly solo around the world. But then two years later, heβs living his vision. He wanted to be a pilot since he was a little boy. Heβs living his vision. And then two years later, he was in a plane crash, a horrific plane crash, that threatened more than the dream that he started at age six. He was left a paraplegic after that accident. But he fought back physically and emotionally to walk and to hope again, and most importantly, from a life of significance perspective, to help others hope again.
Ryan Campbell:
We started the airplane. You actually have to grab the propeller and spin the propeller with your hands and start it by hand, so itβs a very old technology. And we taxi to the end of the runway. We lined up on this short grass airstrip. Nice and early in the morning to take off and go and look at the beach. And I pushed the power forward, the airplane performed beautifully, and we lifted off the ground, the runway. And the fence at the end of the runway disappeared beneath the nose. And straightaway at about 150 feet over the top of trees the engine failed. And we had a partial engine failure. And within three seconds, despite everything that I could do, we just β¦ I donβt know what I ever could have done different. We had nowhere to go and we ended up in what was a horrific plane crash. And itβs just not explainable how bad it was. And I was cut from the wreckage, placed into a helicopter and flown to hospital, but I was the only survivor.
Gary S:
That story also was one truly inspiring from the start to the finish.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, his was almost like a double crucible, but he has two huge stories. Here he is at 19 growing up in Australia and just has this dream of flying. Heβs wanted to do that since he was a kid and had this idea that he could fly around the world and wanted to be the youngest, which he did. And just that whole journey, getting funding. I remember he wrote a letter to Dick Smith whoβs this sort of maverick entrepreneur, owns the equivalent of Best Buy in Australia, and has supported whole bunch of different adventurers, including somebody who we recently had on the podcast, which was so recent was didnβt make the 50 conversation. Lisa Blair who sailed around the Antarctic, which is a whole nother incredible adventure which is absolutely worthy of listening to.
Gary S:
And she also is from where?
Warwick F:
Australia. Exactly. Of course. Australians are so adventurous, I guess. But yeah, so hereβs Ryan. He accomplishes an amazing feat, really put himself out there. And then he just had this idea that he loved flying vintage airplanes, so the biplane. You have twenties, thirties, kind of 1920s, thirties planes. And he had somebody with him helping them give joy rides. People want to go up in planes like this. And it was just this incredible bad luck, really, that heβs a very accomplished pilot, heβs in this old plane, and somehow the engine cut out.
Warwick F:
And as he puts it, if the engine and cut out 20 seconds early or 20 seconds later, he would have been fine. He could have either not taken off or he could have glided down, but he was over trees and thereβs nothing he could do, and it wasnβt his fault. But the passenger that was in that plane died. So not only did he have physical challenges, he had to accept the fact that the person that was within his plane died. Objectively, he knew that it wasnβt his fault. Thereβs nothing he could do. Itβs an old plane, things happen. But he had to the physical. I mean, he can walk now, but as he puts it somewhat humorously, he kind of walks like heβs had a bottle of Jack Daniels I think is how he expresses it.
Gary S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
So, it looks like itβs had a few too many. And so, heβs still not a hundred percent, so to speak. But he is functional, and he just talks about having a mindset toolbox to overcome crucibles. And his whole way back of feeling sorry for himself in hospital and looking out at somebody else in the rehab clinic who is just trying to move one little finger just like a little bit.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
And heβs thinking, βIβm feeling bad about myself. I can do more than move a finger. And this guy is looking at me, like looking through my soul, saying,β as we say in Australia, βHey mate, what are you complaining about?β Now he didnβt say that, but the look said everything. And Ryan, you want that look meant. Itβs like, βOkay, good point. Itβs not great, but Iβm not where this other guy is.β So, his ability to bounce back from that somewhat physically, but especially emotionally. And he still enjoys flying. He tried to fly a helicopter which one road a bit too far, but at least he can fly. His whole attitude of hope, similar in one sense to Michelle Kuei. He has this hope, the sense of optimism, despite what he went through.
Gary S:
Yeah. And what you just said, Warwick, about him comparing himself to that other gentlemen in the hospital with him reminded me of another physical crucible guest that we had. It was actually two guests. It was a father and son, both of whom were former Navy Seals. And I remember that it was Mike and David Charbonnet are the guests. There were our fifth show very early on. And quick rundown of their story. David Charbonnet was the son who followed in his dad Mikeβs footsteps, joined the Seals, and then he was hurt in a parachuting accident and he was paralyzed. And while he was telling that story, Warwick, I donβt know if you remember, but while he was telling that story, you were telling your story. And I was trying to make a point about how no matter where, your crucibles can be similar. Even if the circumstances are different, the emotions are often the same.
Gary S:
And you made an offhand comment that your crucible certainly wasnβt as devastating or I forget the words you used as David Charbonnetβs might have been. And Mike, his dad, stopped you and said, βWe should never compare our crucibles, never compare our pain, because whatβs the most painful for you is the most painful for you.β So, the idea that the flip side to what Ryan did was to say, βGeez, I donβt have it as bad as that guy.β The idea of saying still knowing that your crucible, your pain, is your pain and not to just dismiss it, to live through it, to accept it, like Michelle did, to take it, to realize itβs there, to accept it, and then move on, I think is an important bit of what weβve been able to draw out of guests as weβve talked to them.
Warwick F:
No, thatβs so true. I mean, it was inspirational what Mike Charbonnet shared, that your pain, your crucible, you canβt compare it. Itβs every bit as painful. That was a remarkable episode because you had both father and son Navy SEALs. Mike thought about his son, that his son was subjectively maybe could be one of the best SEALs ever. As a Navy SEAL, you donβt make those comments idly. And so, that was Mikeβs perspective. To see his son just paralyzed and his career dream gone was tough, and it was obviously tough for the son. But physically, there was only limited ability to overcome that, but heβs now heading up a vet rehabilitation clinic in San Diego and sort of latest technology to help vets have the best movement they can. And so again, using his pain for a purpose, and thatβs also inspirational. David Charbonnet could have given up on life and felt very angry and bitter, but he didnβt. Heβs using his pain to help others and help other vets. Yeah, I applaud him for his life and how he approaches it.
Gary S:
He is living a life of significance. Another guest that I think of when we talk about this subject of physical crucibles is a man named Tim Hague. Tim is one of the few people, itβs very rare, who was diagnosed with early onset Parkinsonβs disease. Tim was a nurse, so he kind of knew it was coming even before. He felt the tremors and he felt some things, and he knew thatβs what it was and the diagnosis was confirmed. He was 46. He was active and he was vibrant, and suddenly this disease began to attack his body and slow him down and make it hard for him to do things that he had taken for granted.
Gary S:
One of the things he said at the end of that show that I think was so inspirational was he had to believe there was something good in it for him as he processed early onset Parkinsonβs. He said he had to believe there was something good in it for him. Otherwise, it doesnβt make any sense. What he was saying was, βThe lessons of this crucible, I have to learn them and apply them because that will be good for me, and then by extension, good for others, helping others.β
Warwick F:
Tim Hague was also incredibly inspirational. Heβs a person of faith, Canadian. Because heβs been a nurse for a very long time, as soon as he started feeling that tremor in his left toe, he knew, as you say, he knew immediately what that was, Parkinsonβs. Didnβt need to go to the doctor. Obviously he did, got the whole tests, and started a simple process of figuring that out. But obviously, youβve got to be angry, frustrated. Itβs like, βReally? 46?β I mean, that hardly ever happens to somebody so young, but he did not let it destroy him. He knows all the data. He knows the actor Michael J. Fox has helped raise millions, if not billions, of research into Parkinsonβs that so far has not really found a cure. I mean, in his perspective, all the best will in the world hasnβt accomplished that much objectively. Not that there hasnβt been a huge amount of effort, but thereβs not been much forward progress in significantly finding a cure. But yet, he has turned his challenge and heβs not let it get him down. He won the Amazing Race Canada, which him and his son did.
Gary S:
Awesome.
Warwick F:
How is that possible with Parkinsonβs and that kind of disability to win? I mean, that was a miracle. Itβs a whole nother story worth listening to podcast for more details, but he now helps other people with Parkinsonβs disease. While there is no cure, with the proper diet, exercise and mindset, you can be more functional. You can have significant difference in your functionalities which I didnβt realize. And so, he is really helping a lot of folks with Parkinsonβs have the best quality of life that they can. So again, a real inspirational figure. I donβt sense heβs not happy that he has Parkinsonβs, but itβs not destroying him. Heβs not in a well of bitterness thatβs eating away like acid at his soul every day. Thatβs not him. Really an inspiration.
Gary S:
Heβs a young man, Tim Hague, a young man with an older personβs ailment, disease. This leads me to segue into our next area, which is emotional crucibles. Because among all of the emotional crucibles we talked about, when I think of young man and doing something that you tend to only think happens to folks who have a little bit more tread off the tires, I think of Adom Appiah. Adom is a 16 year old young man, one of the most remarkable people weβve talked to because his perspective on things, his maturity in dealing with his crucibles and his perspective on how to come back from that is so far beyond his years. Iβve never heard you in an interview, Warwick, say wow or just be blown away by what a guest says more than I heard you in that interview with Adom.
Gary S:
It all started for him when he grew up in eighth grade. He finally, after dreaming for years, he wanted to be in the national spelling bee, but he got knocked out of the national spelling bee early. This thing that heβs dreamt of for maybe half his life or a third of his life, because heβs only in eighth grade at the time, heβs dreamt about it, he studied for it, heβs done all of these things, but he got knocked out early. Now, how many people who in eighth grade, how many young peopleβ¦ Iβll raise my hand and say, when I was in eighth grade, if I got knocked off of something I wanted really badly, I wasnβt going to do what Adom Appiah did.
Gary S:
Adom didnβt feel sorry for himself. He didnβt have a fit. He didnβt sulk. He didnβt blow up. He turned his attention into consoling the other kids whoβd also fallen short. He reached out and helped those who also had their dreams, their young dreams crushed by that experience. And that just started a series of events in his life that has led him now at age 16, heβs the author of two books and the founder of a very successful fundraising nonprofit called Ball4Good. Heβs already, at age 16, living a life of significance that is focused on building a legacy of service to others. And that is impressive at any age, superlatively impressive at 16.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, Gary. I mean, Adom is one of the most inspirational guests weβve had because the amount of wisdom he has for his age, Iβd say the amount of wisdom he has for any age was just mind blowing. Itβs a combination of wisdom and maturity. I mean, itβs just here he is at a young age, eighth grade. This whole spelling bee thing, it wasnβt just a whim. Heβd been dreaming of this for a couple of years or so. I mean, this was something. It was a goal, a dream. He was passionate about it. He worked hard. All you have to do on that spelling bee is miss one word and thatβs it. Yeah, he was frustrated. It wasnβt like he didnβt feel those emotions, but it didnβt take long, as you say, for him to shift his thinking to console the other kids. I mean, what kid does that? I think he was still in middle school at that time. I guess eighth grade, he would have been. I mean, itβs just stunning.
Warwick F:
As you say, he writes two books Bouncing Back from Failure and then Kids Can Change The World. I mean, how many people do you know who have written two books before theyβd even finished high school. Itβs just absolutely staggering. As you say, he started this whole nonprofit Ball4Good. Heβs got a lot of very wise people on the board. Heβs done everything the right way to get the smartest people, but he is so mature. When you ask him, somehow the word legacy came up and I was almost embarrassed to ask him about it.
Gary S:
Right. What happened was he was talking about how his dad always had told him the importance of just doing you, itβs the way that he put it, and that what you need to do to make your legacy one you can be proud of. This is what he said about his legacy, βI just want to be able to help definitely more people than Iβve helped now.β
Adom Appiah:
My dad always tells me the importance of just doing you and doing what you need to do, what your legacy should be. And so, heβs taught me how I should listen to others, how I should take into account what everybody has to say, and then pick what I believe to be important and ingrain that in my life.
Warwick F:
Another amazing word. I donβt think Iβve heard pretty much any 16 year olds mentioned is legacy. What do you want your legacy to be? Thatβs something people think about on their death bed. Itβs typically, βMan, I made lots of money,β or whatever happened and oops, βI neglected my family. I was so driven.β Whether itβs in any field of endeavor, business, sports, the arts, but youβre thinking about legacy right now. I mean, do you have any inklings of what you want your legacy to be? Itβs probably a massive question, but since you brought up the word.
Gary S:
I bet you do. I bet you do.
Adom Appiah:
I have some broad aspirations as toβ¦ I just want to be able to help definitely more people than Iβve helped now. I want to be able to get to a point where I can consider myself a true philanthropist and be able to allow people to benefit, be able to help with the issues of the world and whatever way I can, whether thatβs in leadership or in financial contributions. I just want to be able to say at the end of my life that I was able to make a difference. I was able to help.
Gary S:
For any young man whoβs 16 to already have helped people at the extent Adom has helped people by getting through Ball4Good a professional basketball player, Zion Williamson, to be part of the celebrity basketball team. He wants to be able to get to a point where I can consider myself a true philanthropist. I mean, thatβs amazing.
Warwick F:
It really is. I mean, not everybody thinks about legacy, but very few folks in high school think about legacy. Itβs just too soon. Youβre thinking about getting through high school, perhaps college.
Gary S:
Girls, boys.
Warwick F:
Yeah, a job. But I guess legacy ultimately, I guess, is defined when youβre on your deathbed, what do you want your legacy to be? He thought about that. As you say, he wants to be thought of as a philanthropist. He said that at the end of his life, he wants to be able to say that he was able to make a difference. I mean, he knows what it is. Heβs not defined by how big that is. I think in not so many words you realize itβs just changing one life is enough. He just has such mature perspective. He already has a handle on what legacy means and what he wants his to be. I canβt think of anybody else his age who was that mature and that thoughtful and is even thinking about legacy, let alone have a very well thought out perspective on it. I mean, thatβs why it was so amazing. His maturity and his wisdom was off the charts. It was mind blowing. It was just hard to believe.
Gary S:
For him to be able to deal with that emotional crucible of, and we discovered this with a number of guests, sometimes the most emotional, the hardest crucibles, the trials and tragedies of their lives happened very early. We have had other guests who didnβt get on the basketball team when they were growing up, and that was in eighth grade and it still haunts them. It still was an issue that they had, a sticking point that they had to get over. For that crucible that Adom went through at that age to lead him not five years down the road to realize, βAha, I need to help people,β he realized within minutes. Rather than going back to his room at the hotel for the spelling bee and sulking, he must started helping other kids and heβs continuing to do that.
Gary S:
That is inspirational. That is a pointer to everybody who goes through a crucible of any type, particularly an emotional crucible, that you can move beyond your emotional crucible. One of the first things you can do is help others, right? Whatβs the best way to stop thinking about your own problems? Go focus your attention on helping somebody with their problems.
Gary S:
Another guest who as a young man, as a young boy who we had, who dealt with an extraordinarily difficult emotional crucible was Jim Daly. Jim Daly is the president of the nonprofit ministry Focus on the Family. Full disclosure, I used to work for Jim and Iβm a friend of Jimβs. I used to say about the kind of man Jim Daly is, about the kind of man that Jim Daly, the kind of leader Jim Daly is. I would tell people that I would follow Jim Daly into a burning building simply because he told me to, he asked me to. I wouldnβt need to know why we were going into the burning building. I would know because I know his character, because I know his dedication to helping families. I would follow him into that building because I knew I would know that his reason for going in was a good, selfless one focused on helping others.
Gary S:
But what Jim unpacked for us when we talked to him, his emotional crucible, incredible that he leads this global nonprofit organization that helps keep families together, helps families thrive, given what his own background was like, abandoned by his alcoholic father at five, he lost his mother to cancer four years later and had no one to turn to but his four older siblings. He spent time in foster care, where he dealt with what he called unreal, a family named the Real family. Jim names them, they are the Real family, and he said theyβre actually the unreal family. He went through so much loneliness and so much pain and so much dejection, and yet he pushed through it. Perhaps not in minutes like Adom did, but it took a period of time, he also found himself in a position where he wanted to help other people. And thatβs what heβs doing today as the head of Focus on the Family.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, a number of people have heard of Jim Daly, the CEO of Focus on the Family that has a worldwide ministry, a faith-based that does a lot of good for families, but they donβt always know the backstory, which obviously working with him you knew, but I didnβt, and just being abandoned had an alcoholic father, mother dies of cancer. On the day of his motherβs funeral, his stepfather just walks out on him and his siblings and he was the youngest. I mean, heβs just abandoned. And then you think maybe thereβs hope in foster care, and it wasnβt very good. So he had a really tough life, but somehow he didnβt let that destroy him.
Warwick F:
I think first maybe positive influence, I think was a football coach of his in high school. And that to have a positive role model in a male figure was something he hadnβt experienced. Somehow there was a turn in his life and ended up going to college and working his way up in the corporate world before the opportunity came to come to Focus on the Family, but he had about as tough an upbringing as anybody I know. It was really, really grim.
Gary S:
In our conversation, he offered, I think a great piece of advice to people who have children about if theyβre going through difficult times, what do you do?
Jim Daly:
So, one piece of advice I have for people is if youβre going through difficulty as a parent, let your kids in on it in an age appropriate way. For me, I had to go from having a normal, dysfunctional family to all of a sudden learning one Saturday morning that my mom had died the night before. It wasnβt expected. I wasnβt anticipating it. I couldnβt read the signs and put it all together. So it was a jolt to me to learn that the person who was the most loving, kind person in my life, all of a sudden was gone. I didnβt even have a chance to say goodbye to her.
Gary S:
I mean, that is really good advice, isnβt it?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, he didnβt have a really positive role model of people doing that to him, his stepdad saying, βHey, your mom has died. Letβs talk about this.β Not only did they not have a conversation, he just left. So it was as bad as it could be. So obviously, with his own kids, heβs being more open. There is an age appropriate way to talk about challenges youβre going through, but just not talking about challenges with your kids, it is just not helpful. I think psychologists would tell us kids want to be told something. You canβt tell them nothing. But heβs remarkable to me. One of the most remarkable things about his story is heβs not a bitter, vindictive or angry man.
Warwick F:
He could have been angry at his alcoholic dad, at his stepfather, at his foster family, but heβs not. I mean, it doesnβt mean that he condones. We talk about that quite a bit on Beyond the Crucible. Forgiveness doesnβt mean you condone poor or abhorrent behavior, but he keeps moving forward. I asked him about that and I canβt remember his exact words, but it was something that you just move forward. You donβt let that get you down. Heβs somebody that Iβm sure reflective, but he doesnβt reflect about all the pain. He keeps moving forward and trying to help others. Heβs forward-focused, focused on helping others.
Gary S:
That was episode 13, listeners, so you can go back and you can hear it because one of the things I did, I remember now, as we talk about it, one of the things I did in that show is I drew everyoneβs attention to the fact that even as he was talking about these really traumatic things, there was a joy to him about the other side of those traumatic things. In other words, he wasnβt overjoyed that his mother had passed away. He wasnβt overjoyed that he was abandoned or that he had trouble in foster care, but the lessons he learned from that and then how he applied those lessons in his life as the head of Focus on the Family, there was joy in his voice. He laughed. I mean, there are a few people Iβve met in my life, let alone worked for, who laugh as much as Jim Daly and as robustly as Jim Daly. And thatβs an important thing, that authenticity of who he is, that finding the joy in the difficult moments of your life is-
Warwick F:
It is.
Gary S:
β¦ extraordinarily important.
Warwick F:
I think for him, and we talk about this also quite a lot in Beyond the Crucible is in order to bounce back, youβve got to have some core of beliefs, values, something inner core. For him, heβs a very strong man of faith, faith in Christ. Thatβs probably one of the cornerstones of him. But wherever you get it from, youβve got to have some internal core of convictions and belief that can help fuel your path back, that can, from his perspective, help him forgive. So heβs got this joy, but thereβs an anchor in his soul that fuels his joy, I guess is the point. So find your anchor, whatever that may be-
Gary S:
Right. There you go.
Warwick F:
β¦ everybody has to find their own, but you got to have one.
Gary S:
Right. One of the big principles of crucible leadership, for sure. A couple of other guests, Warwick, that weβve had on, again, who really struck me, who have gone through emotional crucibles, one of them was Sarah Nannen. The title that we put on Sarahβs episode was simply Lean Into Your Pain. Her story was that her husband, she was not just a military wife, but an officer and her husband was a military pilot and he died in a training accident. She went through some difficult crucibles. But again, as she talked about how she came out of those, there was joy in her voice, but it was not easy. It was kind of double crucibles for her as well, wasnβt it?
Warwick F:
It was. I mean, she had four children under six, the youngest just a few months old. When you see in the movies, you see those two military folks coming up your driveway. And as soon as she saw them, just like in the movie, she knew exactly what it was about. They were going to tell her that she is a naval officer and they were going to tell her that her husband, a fighter pilot, was killed in a training accident. Obviously, she goes through incredible grief. I mean, she loses her husband. Sheβs got young kids. How is she going to survive this? But she is one tough person in the best sense of that word. She is a survivor. Part of obviously, how do you move on from something like that? I mean, it takes years. But the other crucible was, as she puts it, people put her in a widow box.
Warwick F:
They expected her to be this grieving widow for the rest of her life because if she really wanted to honor her military hero pilot, she should put her life on hold and permanently grieve, permanently weep, not move on, not find another relationship. Nobody would probably ever say that to her. It was a look in their eyes. It was almost the expectations. People mean well, but she was not going to be in that widow box. So she has moved on in her life and relationships. She really has a mission to help other widows, whether it be through military widows or widows from other causes, not just be put in that box and move on. Itβs not just possible that she puts it to overcome that kind of crucible. Itβs possible to thrive. For some you use the T word thrive, it feels like if youβre thriving, you must not have loved your husband. May wonβt say that, but people think some very bad things, unfortunately, and she refuses to accept that. She doesnβt apologize for thriving. Itβs not dishonoring her husband. So she also is a true inspiration.
Gary S:
Yeah. Also inspirational, and I tend to know all of our examples here in the emotional crucible category, another friend of mine, Esther Fleece Allen. She was our first guest, the first person who we ever interviewed on Beyond the Crucible. Estherβs story, which I knew well, but still learned some things in our conversation, Estherβs story was that she had a traumatic childhood of abuse and abandonment, but she rose above that as she moved beyond the crucible. She carved out a successful career as a speaker and writer, and we actually worked together for a spell.
Gary S:
But then, the father that she feared who had abandoned her when she was young resurfaced in her life and stalked her. She realized that the successful life sheβd built was a bit of a defense mechanism to avoid processing her pain. She has focused herself now to lament on those crucible experiences, to feel them completely, to, as the title of the Sarah Nannenβs episode says, lean into your pain. Esther Fleece Allen learned to lean into her pain. From that, sheβs been set free of some of the pain that she experienced that led her to kind of, as she put it in her first book, to fake fine.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, Esther Fleece Allen, kind of like Sarah Nannen, sheβs a fighter, sheβs a survivor. I mean, truly, truly impressive. As you mentioned, abandoned by her parents. Later on, father stalked her. I mean, in high school, whatβs amazing is she was raised by parents of friends at high school. Sheβd go from place to place, and I think she was getting straight Aβs, active in high school. I mean, how is that possible? I asked her about that and says, well, I mean, she, wasnβt going to let this define her, destroy her. Sheβs one of these people that just, I guess they talk about fight or flight, she was absolutely on the fight side. βIβm not going to let this get me down. Iβm just going for it.β But as she was doing all of that, that really led as you know better than I, her first book, No More Faking Fine.
Warwick F:
On the outside, she was seen to be this high achieving young woman. Sheβs going for it, getting it done. But on the inside, thereβs still the pain that maybe she was pushing down. And so, she realized she needed to deal with it. I love her new book, Your New Name, which is really obviously a faith perspective, Your New Name, from her perspective faith, Your New Name, and Jesus, so to speak, but itβs almost like youβre not defined by your narrative that you grew up with. Youβre not defined by the story of abandonment. You can chart your own course. You can have your own new name. So her ability to jump, to survive, but like Sarah Nannen, to thrive and deal with the pain, the emotional pain, and just have this light and this joy is also truly remarkable.
Gary S:
Hopefully, listeners, what you hear when you hear these stories of the way in which these individuals have bounced, not back from, through their crucibles. It maybe doesnβt take just a couple of minutes like it did for Adom Appiah. Sometimes it can take 30 years like it did for Michelle Kuei, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. There is significance at the end of the pain. And thatβs what weβve discovered through our first 49 episodes of Beyond the Crucible.
Gary S:
Another guest, Warwick, as we switch now into professional crucibles, those things that happened to us in our working life, another guest who offers that example and perspective of light at the end of the tunnel, that perspective of moving beyond things that held you down for a long period of time is Cathleen Merkel. Cathleen Merkel grew up in communist East Germany, and she was taught that her value came from doing what others expected of her, working hard, not upsetting the established order of things, but then the Berlin Wall fell and freedom came and she tentatively stepped into that in ways that werenβt always great for her.
Gary S:
She pursued professional goals and personal goals with a passion, but they didnβt satisfy her in the way that she thought they would satisfy her. She had some issues with her staffs and her bosses told her some things that we donβt like to hear from our bosses. It sent her reeling a little bit in her early professional career, and that professional setback, that professional disruption led to some challenges for her.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I found Cathleen Merkel just a remarkable woman. Sheβs somebody that is very driven. I mean, she grew up, as you mentioned, in communist East Germany and you think sort of German work ethic, go at it, very driven. So she was in her 20s, 30s, just working her way up the corporate ladder doing amazingly well, but it was kind of like, βIβm going to get this done no matter what.β And she was kind of walking over people. She was almost, from her perspective, being too German. Sheβs giving people feedback very directly, very bluntly. βThis isnβt working. I need you to do this.β She had a boss say to her, βYou need to tone it down a bit. People donβt like you.β
Warwick F:
Now, interestingly enough for her, her boss was a woman. So it wasnβt like, βOh, some male boss saying to some woman, βOh you need to be more nice.β β It was a woman telling her. Yeah. So that, she couldnβt really dismiss that. Itβs just somebody that just doesnβt get it. And so she really took that to heart and there was a couple of crucibles there. One is just how she hated feeling like people were scared of her. Maybe I donβt know about didnβt like or somebody scared of her. Nobody wants people to be scared of them who works for you. Thatβs not good. But she realized she didnβt have a life. I think she went on a trip with some folks to Indonesia. I think it might have been Bali, I believe. And she realized she had no life. It was all work. She had no social life, no vacation. Everything was work. She came to a point in that trip when she realized she didnβt know who she was. She was just this driven workaholic, if you will.
Gary S:
Right. There was a moment in that interview, Warwick, there was a moment in that interview that it still impresses me so much about the way that you drew out of her what she was going through. It impressed her too, because she actually, at some point, I think in the interview stopped and said, βIβm going to write that down,β because some of the insights that we were discussing, she was like, βOh, thatβs good.β But she talks about the importance of having friends around her. It wasnβt just about work. So she packed herself up with friends and she let her emotions out with them and it led to an extraordinary turning point, where she said she started nourishing her body and her soul again.
Cathleen Merkel:
I started nourishing my body and my soul again. I had life coaching sessions. I had nutrition sessions, Ayurvedic, that sounded very German, Ayurvedic food and massages and all of these things, and I had a lot of meditation sessions in yoga. But the most important thing was I was surrounded by kindness, unconditional kindness, which I havenβt really received a lot or I didnβt quite know what that was. I started simply being myself. I remember when I left after three and a half weeks there, one of the guests said to me, βMy goodness, itβs beautiful to see the real you.β I was literally standing there in tears because I could feel those walls weβre gone. I was just feeling so amazing about myself.
Warwick F:
So did you feel like in that moment, that for the first time you met Cathleen Merkel, that you didnβt really know who she was, so this is who I am. Who knew? Maybe I can smile. Maybe I can forgive myself if I make a mistake. Itβs like, that mustβve been a strange experience to meet yourself in a sense, the real you for the first time.
Cathleen Merkel:
It was strange and beautiful. I actually got goosebumps listening to you describing me. It was just absolutely stunning. And I was crying because I was just so full of gratitude and joy about it. Suddenly it felt like a rock fell off my shoulders and it felt light and easy. And life started feeling just super easy.
Gary S:
That for me is one of the most meaningful moving exchanges weβve had on the show.
Warwick F:
It really was because I think a lot of people are there. They work hard. Theyβre driven, especially in 20s, 30s, 40s, youβre working your way up. You want to get the brass ring. You want to kind of be CEO, vice president, have a good life, none of which is wrong, but she was very driven and she realized, what is this all for? Itβs easy to get caught up in the kind of conditional love. Oh, maybe people will like me or love me if Iβm successful and that kind of mindset. And as she was in Bali with some friends, they didnβt know the corporate Cathleen Merkel. She found, I think, as she put it, the real Cathy, and she didnβt know who that person was, she was meeting herself. And itβs like, this person can laugh. Can have friends, can have fun. And she was enjoying herself. And she realized it was okay to be Cathleen Merkel. She didnβt have to be Cathleen Merkel, the corporate success, watch out sheβs coming because she might snap your head off or something.
Warwick F:
And so that really changed her whole life. And so now she coaches and trains women leaders in particular to not just be successful, but have balance. And itβs not just about, you can be successful and work your way up the corporate ladder, but you can have balance and have joy. And thatβs really her mission, especially to get women leaders, not just success, but joy and balance. And so thatβs a very important message. And her whole countless now itβs full of joy. Sheβs a very joyful person. Yeah. She works hard. She is driven, but sheβs joyful. And thatβs an important message I think for all of us.
Gary S:
And itβs also the story, interestingly enough, of another guest who had a much different kind of professional crucible, and thatβs of the things I love about Beyond the Crucible in general, and about us taking time here for a 50th episode, to revisit some of the themes and some of the guests and some of the insights that they have, because there is no matter how different someoneβs crucibles are in detail, in execution the way theyβve affected you, how you react to them and then how you overcome them. Thereβs so much similarity across those lines.
Gary S:
And the guest Iβm speaking of in this case is Whitney Singletary-White, episode 42 listener, if you want to check that one out. Whitneyβs story just fascinated me. I found Whitney, I did a Google search, I think, for a professional setback or something like that, her name popped up in a story that was in the newspaper in Berkeley, California. And Whitney at age three, she baked her first batch of cookies and she laughed as she told the story on the podcast, she uses as one of her secret ingredients, mud. And her grandfather was so encouraging, he ate it and said, βYeah, that was pretty good. Itβd be even better if there wasnβt any mud in it, but good for you.β
Gary S:
And that led her down the road to want to have a bakery. And she worked hard to make that happen to the point that she developed her own kind of cookies. Her business is called Nuttinβ Butter Cookies. And thatβs because thereβs nuts. Theyβre all nut-based cookies. And she talks in the show about all these different exotic kind of nuts. And neither one of us ever heard of. And it was great, but her professional crucible came when first, she got assaulted while she was baking from her home in her apartment, then that got resolved and she got a storefront and she was finally stepping out. She was doing it, but it was early 2020, the spring of 2020. And we all know what happened. Then COVID-19 hit and she had to shut down, and that led her to begin selling her cookies out of her driveway. And the pluck that she demonstrated there was just amazing to me and the spirit, boy, sheβs a formidable person for sure. Isnβt she?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, Whitney Singletary-White is also an inspiration. I mean, she grew up in Bakersfield, California, I guess itβs pretty hot. And she pretty much said thereβs not a whole lot to see you there. And she now lives in Berkeley and that story with her grandpa, that was just so amazing. I mean, itβs interesting as sheβs part of a life with a mom with two small kids, a single mom, and she just had this dream of cookies and of just every kind of nut cookie you can imagine. And she said many of the nuts weβd never heard of. I think obviously, pecan, sesame havenβt really had sesame cookies before, but she just had this dream and she wasnβt going to give up. She also was very resilient. She finally gets a store in Berkeley and then COVID hits.
Warwick F:
And not only do they have to close, I think the landlord didnβt want to let her out of the lease, which isβ¦ And then he says, what can I do for you? Well, how about letting me out of my lease?
Gary S:
How about being a human being, and let me out of my lease-
Warwick F:
Yeah. Which Iβm not quite sure that ever got worked out. So then sheβs got to go back try to sell cookies in her apartment building. And as you mentioned, she ends up getting beaten up from, I think, the people across the road and aided by some of the folks in her apartment building, badly beaten up. And then if things arenβt any worse at some point during all of this, she gets a flu injection that was not done well. And her arm was out of action for a long time. You canβt bake without two arms. So sheβs had a lot of stuff, but yet, like some of our guests, she just has this grit. She does not give up. She has this ability to overcome.
Gary S:
Right. And she said of all of the succinct expressions of what it takes to move beyond a crucible, of all the people whoβve said some things that are great takeaways for listeners to grab onto and hope through in their own crucibles. She said something that toward the end of that show Warwick that was just so on-point, and so honest and transparent and real when she said that, βHelp can come from the most unexpected place.β
Whitney Singletary-White:
Help comes in the most unexpected places when you least expect it, at that moment when you feel that you really canβt go on, there is always going to be that one person that you wouldnβt expect to do it weβll reach out and help you. And I find that you canβt really fail if you donβt keep trying, because once you give up, you failed, youβre done thatβs over. But if your youβre like, βI still got it, I could still make it.β You could still get that little bit in there. You can still push through just enough. Itβs hard. It hurts. But once you get past that moment, you can sit back and go, I made it. I overcome that. Iβm no longer feeling that pain anymore. Iβm finally where I need to be. You could get yourself out of it. We got to pull ourselves out of the mud sometimes and dust off the mud, weβll walk through was drying on and cracked up in those pants and flake it off and get going, was just sometimes you just have to do it.
Warwick F:
It is remarkable when youβre really going for it, and youβre not letting things get you down is amazing. In the era of COVID, there was limitations on how much you can get from the store. Well she bakes cookies. So she needs a whole bunch of flour, eggs, butter, the whole deal when they were rationed. But she had a bunch of friends saying, βLook, I can get some extra, I can afford to get you a little bit of extra, and Iβll just drop it off.β And all these people came out of the woodwork trying to help her.
Gary S:
Right. Itβs like at the end of it, Itβs a Wonderful Life, when everybody shows up and gives George Baileyβ¦
Warwick F:
Yeah, exactly. But her attitude is really remarkable. She has this phrase in which she says, βYou canβt really fail if you just keep trying, if you donβt give up.β So she never gives up. And thatβs how she defines not failing is just keep trying. And there were times when it was bad, when she was really hurt, and injured, from being beaten up and her two little kids said, βItβs okay, Mommy, donβt give up.β And I guess, she must have told the kids that a fair amount. And her ability in some very difficult circumstances just to keep going is just remarkable. Sheβs even won over the local fire department and-
Gary S:
And the police department.
Warwick F:
Police department. I mean, they love her cookies so much as she puts it, she has free security. Just come by and says, βHey, Whitney. Everything okay. Do you need anything?β Itβs like-
Gary S:
The police department has traded donuts for her cookies. Absolutely.
Warwick F:
Oh, yeah. Nobodyβs going to mess with her. They kind of know that she has friends in the right places. So truly remarkable woman.
Gary S:
And as we round out having discussions about the crucible guests that weβve had on, a couple other folks that weβve talked to over the last year plus, who experienced professional crucibles come to mind for me, one of them, Tommy Breedlove. Tommy Breedlove is a really, talk about a go-getter, hereβs another go-getter. He had some crucible moments, physical and emotional violence when he was young. But he moved beyond that and he was killing it in corporate America. He was the guy with the gold cufflinks, I think he says, or platinum or whatever, precious metal they were made out of. And he wasnβt just on the fast track. He was ahead of other people on the fast track. And yet, while his career was skyrocketing, his personal life wasnβt doing as well. And he found himself one night, didnβt know how he got there, but he was lying in a ditch in his native Atlanta. And he was trying to figure out how he got there both physically and circumstantially. How did he end up there? And the way that he came back was through what he calls, learning how to live a legendary life.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Tommy Breedlove is also a remarkable person. I mean, he grew up in a blue collar neighborhood in Atlanta. It was not the easiest neighborhood. Now, looks at himself that he was a bully when he was a young age, which thatβs a hard thing to live with. Nobody wants to be a bully, at least not when theyβve had some more perspective. He ends up getting in prison. And somehow he bounces back from that. It was one individual, I think an African-American older man in prison, that just kind of helped inspire him. And so he works at this financial services firm and youβre right. As you say, he was killing it. He was doing really well.
Warwick F:
But he got to a point where itβs like, is this all there is? And he told his boss, βLook, Iβm going to resign.β And he said, βYouβre nuts. Youβre going to make a staggering amount of money an enormous amount of money. Do you know how much youβre giving up?β And he did. And he basically said, βMy soul is not for sale.β And he realized that thereβs more to life than just success. He believes in success. That from his perspective, a legendary life is more about living a life on purpose, thinking of others, balance, self love as he puts it, which is really taking care of yourself. And thatβs been a challenge for Tommy just because of how he grew up with, you can get into the scenario where many are, oh, if Iβm successful, then maybe not only will other people love me. Maybe I can love myself. And somehow they feel like being successful, which it never really solves. Never really helps that.
Warwick F:
But he has a more balanced life, he genuinely loves himself. And the healthy sense of that word, he speaks. Heβs written a book, Legendary. He has true friends. He has an inner counsel, if you will, to help him stay on the right track. And he has a good life, a life on purpose, a legendary life. But yeah, he is an inspiration for those who were just going flat out in the corporate world, you can be successful, but you can be more than successful as we say, you can be having a life on purpose, a life of significance.
Gary S:
Yeah. And itβs interesting that so many people that weβve had on the show have asked various forms of that question that you pointed out to Tommy asked, and that is, is this all there is? So many people have achieved some goal, dream, whatever it was, but it wasnβt as fulfilling as they maybe thought it was. I remember one guest, I forget who it was now. It mightβve been Cathleen Merkel where I said, βYou reach for the brass ring and you realize itβs lead.β And weβve had folks who have experienced that in a variety of different ways. And thatβs, I think, a resonant point that a lot of us can identify with. Is that what we think we want once we get it, or isnβt exactly what we want. And sometimes the crucible can be βSuccess itself.β
Warwick F:
Thereβs the parable, if you will, of the anthill, where all these ants are kind of crawling up all over themselves and the anthill to reach the top. And one ant says to the other ant, βWhatβs up there?β I donβt know, but everybody else has going for it. So it must be good. And itβs only once you reach the top, itβs like, is this all there is, but on the way up, you just crawling all over yourself and all over others. Success is fine, but success in it of itself, which is a big theme of Beyond the Crucible and Crucible Leadership doesnβt satisfy. So certainly he is a testament to that.
Gary S:
And the last professional crucible that weβll go over here is Robert Krantz. Bob Krantz is a Hollywood filmmaker, actor, producer, writer. He is sort of like Alan Alda, if you remember when you watched the old mash episodes, Alan Alda did everything. He acted, he wrote, produced, directed. Bob Krantz does that. And he just a year ago produced a film called Faith, Hope & Love. Itβs a dancing movie with a woman whose name I canβt pronounce. I believe her first name is Peta. I believe isnβt she Australian as well.
Warwick F:
She is, of course. We try to get Australians into every episode if we can.
Gary S:
I think thatβs fabulous. I did not realize that. We need to do it. Episode 51, will be about all of the Australians weβve had on the show. But Bob Krantz did this movie Faith, Hope & Love. And I remember I was so impressed by it that I reached out to him to be on the show because his character in the movie and its semi-autobiographical, the movie, his character in the movie goes through some crucibles. And I figured out, Bob Krantz must have some crucibles and indeed he did. But what I remember about that Warwick is I sent you a copy of the film, where I arranged for him to send you a link to the film. And you told the story. I mean, tell folks how your entire family, which is hard to do for an entire family, but they all loved it. Right?
Warwick F:
They did. And yeah, I mean, I have two boys and a girl in their 20s and itβs hard to findβ¦ The boys like action movies, my daughter more comedy, romantic comedies, my tastes are pretty broad. Donβt like horror, but anything else Iβm pretty much good for, my wife has pretty broad tastes, but there was a message of faith. There was dancing. It made you laugh. There was a story of redemption. I mean, it had everything in there. You laughed, you cried. It had everything in there. It was very inspirational. It was a terrific movie. And Netflix picked it up. I donβt know, it was something at one point it was on the trending movies on Netflix or most popular. And itβs really a terrific movie.
Gary S:
And his story, his professional crucible was early in his career as a hyphenate, as a Hollywood hyphenate, writer, director, actor, producer. He wrote a film, again, it was a semi-autobiographical film and it was to his mind and to the people that he showed it to in his circle, it was a fabulous movie. He had the backing of some names in Hollywood and heβs all set up for a screening with some studio executives, which is the motherlode in Hollywood. I worked in Hollywood. Itβs the motherlode of Hollywood to get studio execs, to come to your screening and to see your movie. And while heβs doing that, something happens thatβs extremely crucible-esque, what happened?
Warwick F:
The project stopped. I think the bulb blew-
Gary S:
The bulb.
Warwick F:
I think he might have even asked the folks, okay, so you got spare bulb. He mightβve even done that in advance. So yeah, weβre covered. We know weβre doing, and of course, they didnβt have a spare. It was horrendous.
Gary S:
Yeah. And what happened when that crucible hit, his movie did not get picked up for distribution. And that led him that, and a personal crucible involving a dangerous pregnancy that his wife who had triplets a very touch and go pregnancy that his wife had, the combination of those two things. His wife did indeed have the triplets. And Bob decided the professional crucible made it somewhat easier to make that decision to stay and make sure he was present because he almost lost those three children. He wanted to be present with them and he didnβt make a movie for about a decade. So his professional crucible, which began when the bulb burned out, undone by a bulb, then some personal crucibles hit. He didnβt make a movie. Faith, Hope & Love was his first movie in 10 years. That again, is a story of sticking with it, having perseverance and pursuing your vision in spite of what life might throw at you in between.
Warwick F:
And itβs also another story of just kind of anchoring your vision in your values. He also is a person of faith. And for him, I think I remember him almost having this proverbial conversation with God is like, if my kids survive, Iβm going to be present. It was almost like a conscious decision.
Gary S:
Thatβs right.
Warwick F:
And he did, now, heβs a driven guy. And as you know better than I, in Hollywood, if youβre going to make a movie, itβs pedal to the metal, thereβs not a whole lot of spare time, youβre at it. And so he probably would not have been present. So for somebody in Hollywood that loves making movies to take 10 years off from making movies to sacrifice them for his kids is remarkable. I think theyβre either in college maybe out of college by now, but he has a great relationship with them because he was present.
Warwick F:
Another message is you canβt sacrifice your soul. Itβs sort of like that song I often think of by Cat Stevens, Cats in the Cradle. You donβt want to be that person when itβs like, βOh yeah, Iβll be there soon, son.β I mean, you donβt get those years back. And so he made a choice and if you have a belief in the almighty, I feel like somebody up there, honored that, because Faith, Hope & Love is a great movie. And I think heβs doing pretty well considering what heβs been through, but that was a conscious choice. Iβm not going to sacrifice my family. And it was a miracle that he had those three kids, the doctors multiple times said to his wife, βYouβve got to terminate this because your lifeβs in danger,β countless times she said, βIβm not doing that.β That was her choice. Iβm not doing that. And so he was going to honor his wife and honor his family, and he was not going to sacrifice them for some career goal.
Gary S:
Right. And his life of significance has become those three boys. And now producing quality values, laden entertainment, that is not just for the choir. Itβs not just for the Christian choir. As you pointed out, not only was that movie Faith, Hope & Love on Netflix and did well, but he signed a two-year deal with Netflix to produce more content. So that is how overcoming moving beyond his crucible, heβs led him to a life of significance.
Gary S:
I love what weβre going to talk about next Warwick. And I havenβt told you why I love it, because I just realized why I love it. Why I love it. Weβre going to move now listeners into the perspective guests that weβve had on the show in our first 49 episodes, as we continue our discussion in our 50th episode of some of the highlights of Beyond the Crucible. The two folks who weβre really going to spotlight here actually represent, I think, the things that you and I sort of love the most or really like the most in pursuits. We have one guest, right? Jeff Kemp, whoβs a former NFL quarterback and Iβm an enormous football fan. And we have another guest, Nancy Koehn, whoβs a professor at Harvard Business School, which not only you graduated from, but sheβs a historian who writes about leadership and you love history and leadership.
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Gary S:
So this should be a really fun one for us to go through. Jeff Kemp, interesting guy in that, Jeff Kemp is a second generation NFL quarterback. He was a second generation NFL quarterback. His dad was Jack Kemp. Jack Kemp was a superstar in the old AFL, the American Football League. He was a MVP of that league for the Buffalo Bills. He won an AFL championship. He was All-Pro, the AFLβs version of whatever All-Pro, all-star team was at the time. He was distinguished as an NFL quarterback. His son, Jeff goes to Dartmouth, gets out, does not have the same story about his NFL career. Jeff Kemp does have an NFL career, but it does not match the distinguished career that his dad had on the field. Adding to what could have been pressure on Jeff Kemp is that his dad Jack, listeners may remember of a certain vintage, listeners may remember that his dad, Jack Kemp, was a congressman from New York for a long time, was the first President Bushβs, Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, I believe.
Gary S:
And then after that, Bob Doleβs running mate for the presidency and the race against Bill Clinton and they lost, but he was a presidential candidate who debated Al Gore back in the early β90s. So your father is someone whoβs accomplished all this on the football field. You go into football. And then when he gets out of football, he accomplishes all of this other stuff. Jeff Kemp ended up as an NFL quarterback to be more of what some would call a journeyman. And then he played for a number of different teams. He was neverβ¦ In his 20 years from his early days of playing as a young man to when he left the NFL, of those 20 years, he was only a starter at the start of the season one time, he says in our episodes.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, Jeff Kemp is an interesting guy. Itβs funny, I grew up in Australia, obviously didnβt play American football, but I could relate to him in the sense that as listeners know, I grew up in a prominent family. My dad was knighted in fact, my father, grandfather, great-grandfather, all were knighted in their own right. My dad has the same name as me. He was Sir Warwick, the company was a great mess. He had generations of very prominent people that accomplished a lot and who admire, not justβ¦ Yeah, they were wealthy, but they were admired for who they were and what they did.
Warwick F:
So I could relate in a sense. And as you point out, football star that his dad was. Congressman from, you mentioned Buffalo, New York, housing and urban development secretary under George H. W. Bush. Running mate with Dole, ran for president in β88, the guy was driven. And just to make matters, almost worse for poor Jeff, everybody liked Jack Kemp. He was a good guy. He was driven people on both sides of the aisle. They liked him, they admired him. The guy had a heart, he cared. He was a good and great man in the best sense of that word. And he never purposely tried to push his kids, we talked about being a Kemp, and that had some sort of iconic meaning. And he was almost overzealous in his support. And just a message for parents, donβt overdo the cheerleading because heβd be like, βHey Jeff, you did great.β But Dad, I sat on the bench of that NFL game, I did nothing, but you did it well. Okay. Whatβs that mean? Sitting on the bench.
Gary S:
And you look great in warmups.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean really? So he kept cheering him. And so he didnβt intentionally try to pressure his son, but obviously, his son doesnβt have nearly the football career that his dad did and eventually, his run ends and that was sort of depressing that he was let go. And that was a tough thing to come back from. And heβs written this book, Facing the Blitz, which similar to, in one sense, facing crucibles. And he talks about how blitzes they donβt have to kind of define you. And itβs very a interesting how his whole concept there.
Gary S:
Yeah. And one of the things about Jeff Kemp that was interesting is that all of the things that we talked about not βMeasuring up in the eyes of some people to his dad,β those could be really crucible experiences for people, but he didnβt really take those as deep crucibles. His dad never put pressure on himself. He puts some pressure on himself, he said, but he got through that. And he learned this idea of combating the blitz, which in football is when the entire defense runs after the quarterback and tries to bury him. Thatβs what crucibles feel like. And it was fascinating to hear you both talk about that. But we brought Jeff on because his perspective that he expresses in that book, Facing the Blitz, is really something that all listeners can get some great insight and inspiration from.
Jeff Kemp:
Every person out there has been blitzed. Theyβve been cut. Theyβve been rejected. They went to junior high. They know what itβs like to be on the losing end of that conditional performance-based value system, making fun of your pimples or your size or your voice, or whatever. Everyone goes through crucibles. I want to remind people. You want to remind people. Gary wants to remind people. You are not alone. Others have been in it before. And the worst thing you can do is hide your emotions from other people, hide your pain, drowned it, and self-medicate it, or pretend it didnβt happen. The worst thing you can do is say, βIβm a victim. Itβs all about other people.β Because youβll never grow, if you donβt look at what your part in it was, which it wasnβt, Iβm the worst guy in the world. I deserved to be benched or I deserve to have cartoons against me.
Jeff Kemp:
No, but you know what? Thereβs lessons that I learned. And you have to accept your own personal responsibility. Maybe it was a divorce you went through, even thinking it was 90% her, your math is probably off, okay. Maybe you were cut or sacked or benched, or fired by some company. And you think that was the worst manager or worst CEO ever. Maybe they werenβt that perfect, but there might be something you can learn-
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Jeff Kemp:
So what Iβm saying is embrace the crucible, embrace the blitz, get honest with God and honest with other people about it and learn everything you can about yourself, and what life is truly about, because your life is not about your win-loss record, your statistics, your bank accounts, the applause of the world, how many Twitter followers you have, that is pretty much a bunch of BS. And itβll take you down a wrong road. Youβll lose your identity, living for image and living to gain and earn your identity is a very losing equation.
Warwick F:
Yeah, itβs really remarkable. I mean, you donβt think of embrace the blitz or embrace your crucible. I mean, who thinks that way, but I mean, in football terms, which I have lived here long enough to understand something about it, but you would know more, but you might have a play in your mind. And then you see all these people lined up and you can see the blitz is coming while that play clearly, probably wonβt work. So you need to change the play and be adaptive. And so he uses that as a metaphor for life that you might get blitzed. And maybe his dream was to be an NFL star quarterback, Joe Montana or somebody like that who he actually played on the 49ers at one point, and quarterback when Joe was injured. Well, heβs not going to be in the Hall of Fame like Joe Montana, but he changed, his vision is now different.
Warwick F:
Obviously, itβs an author speaker. He spends a lot of time as a person of faith, and working with families and parents and men, just in terms of how you face blitzes, how you overcome them, how you be good parents. So he has a passion for what he does now. And so his vision has really changed from just being an NFL quarterback. He has his own vision, and heβs also somebody with tremendous joy. And you donβt feel like those expectations are on him anymore, you feel like heβs at peace with who he is, what he achieved and what he didnβt achieve.
Warwick F:
I mean, it is somewhat in the same vein, Iβve had to come to peace with, I didnβt have a successful stint in my career in media. I wasnβt the all-star media person. Thatβs not my legacy. My Wikipedia entry is not particularly good. Young man could have had it all blew it. Itβs almost like the journeyman quarterback thing, maybe worse, I donβt know. But certainly, itβs not like the all-star, but you have to come to peace with that. Thatβs okay. I have a good life. I love what I do now with Crucible Leadership. So thatβs a huge lesson for folks is maybe that initial dream didnβt work out, but thatβs okay. There can be another vision that may even fit better. And so he is inspirational in his own way.
Gary S:
Absolutely. Our next discussion guest, the next person weβre going to talk about, from a perspective perspectiveβ¦ Thatβs fun to say: a perspective perspective, is Nancy Koehn , and this one, Warwick, Iβm not going to put you on the spot. Iβll just put it out rhetorically. If I had to sort of say, who is the guest that Warwick was most excited to interview, I would tell people if people asked me that, that professor Nancy Koehn would have been that person and we actuallyβ¦ That conversation was so good. It was so engrossing, so riveting, so detailed that it actually tookβ¦ It was a two-part episode, but Warwick, you know this far better than I do. Sheβs a Harvard Business School Professor. Youβre a Harvard Business School graduate, so tell folks a little bit about Nancy and why we had her on.
Warwick F:
Nancy Koehn, as you mentioned, sheβs a Harvard Business School Professor, but sheβs a historian. And what she does is talk about historical leaders in a way thatβs relevant to MBA students today. So if you will, what lessons do current leaders in a corporate or nonprofit world, what can they learn from historical leaders? And so, she wrote this incredible book, Forged in Crisis, in which she talks about a number of leaders, Ernest Shackleton, Abraham Lincoln, former U.S. President, Frederick Douglas, also lived around the time of Lincoln, the great African-American abolitionist. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was a German Lutheran pastor that opposed Hitler and was executed for his opposition. Rachel Carson, who founded the modern environmental movement and fought against DDT and those sorts of very harmful chemical sprays, but whatβs interesting is Shackleton, heβs somebody that was this polar explorer in the first couple decades of the 1900s. It was like the space race. Everybody wanted to be the first to get to the North Pole, South Pole, do it for king and country, a number of different countries, Norway, U.S., and England.
Warwick F:
So hereβs Ernest Shackleton and he wanted to lead the first expedition to go across Antarctica. So he leaves at around about 1915 or thereabouts, and heβs all for king and country, and heβs somewhere in Southern Argentina, nearest place to go to the Antarctica and all the weather reports say icebergs, ice floes are as bad as youβve ever seen, like forever. Going now would be suicide, but because heβs so driven, so anxious for glory, frankly, he goes, when all the advice says, this is madness. And of course, what happens, his ship gets trapped in ice and theyβre there for months and months, and thereβs no radio. This is like 1915. So he has to combat the thought that my crew is probably going to die and itβs my fault because I was so impetuous in glory hunting that I left when everybody told me not to. And his story is so remarkable because heβs able to really push that behind him and move ahead. So thatβs a pretty tough crucible when your team may die because you were stupid and impetuous in glory hunting. Thatβs a tough thing to deal with.
Gary S:
Nancy Koehn does a remarkable job in Forged In Crisis in talking about the crucible itself and then the lessons of what came out of the crucible. Itβs a two-part episode. At the end of the second part of that episode, you summed it up with her and asked her a question to say, What are the two or three things that Shackleton did? Because not all of the people who listen, and I would say not many of the people who listen to our show are going to circumnavigate Antarctica. So, what are the takeaways for people who go through crucibles that Shackletonβs life reveals?
Warwick F:
What are the two or three things, why Shackleton holds so many lessons for CEOs, leaders of nonprofits, leaders in the COVID-19 crisis that weβre all going through, corporate leaders, governmental leaders, when everything is so uncertain, what are the key nuggets, would you say, that we need to learn about Shackleton?
Nancy Koehn:
Well, just to present them in uncharacteristically succinct form, you have to step into the fear. You take this step. Courage is not the absence of fear, as Mandela said, itβs the willingness to walk into the fear. Square your shoulders and tighten your core and realize you are still standing and can take the next step. And then other people behind you can take the first step. So step into the fear, feed and water yourself, and your people carefully, both emotionally and physically and mentally. Keep your fingers tightly on the pulse of the morale of the people around you. Learn forward, face forward and learn. Let go of what was and what didnβt work in the past, learn from it, and then move forward, especially in crucibles and crises. Thereβs just too much at stake to spend a lot of time rehashing the past.
Nancy Koehn:
I said on a Charlie Rose interview I did several years ago when my book came in, I said, βI learned and Shackleton learned that why is never the question. Why me? Why this? Why the suffering? Why the calamity? Why the failures? Itβs never why, itβs what can I make in this wreckage, and how can I redeem, reclaim, and just as a crucible, itβs about high flames, literally, and its ability to reshape things. How can I be forged into something better and stronger and more committed to service?β
Warwick F:
Yeah, well said. Really, the first thing was okay, weβre here. I blew it. I was an idiot. I have some experience with that thought of, I blew it, I was an idiot, with the take over. Fortunately, I didnβt almost kill people, but he moved on because he realized his mission changed. His mission was then, Iβm going to bring my crew back alive. Iβm not going to lose anybody. Now, the chances of him bringing his crew back alive was like one in a million or one in a billion. It was a really, really tough goal, but he was determined. He made sure he rationed food. He kept morale up. He gave everybody jobs. He was very focused on their emotional wellbeing. He laughed with them. He was very thoughtful and resolute. But as you said, he stepped, as Nancy said very well, he stepped into the fear. He didnβt avoid it. He was courageous. He thought through things and he didnβt dwell in the past. He didnβt dwell on why did we get, he moved forward. The mission has changed. Iβm not going to cross Antarctica. That mission is dead and that was a huge mission for him. That was a vision, a dream he was passionate about. Okay, thatβs gone. Thatβs over. My new mission is to keep my team alive and I will do everything I can to make that happen, and because of his resoluteness and perseverance, he got all his crew back.
Warwick F:
What is remarkable about his story? This is all happening in the middle of World War I, somewhere around 1919, 1920, when the war was over, some sadly were lost in World War I because weeks after they got back to England, one of them joined up and was killed. These are patriotic folks, but a bunch of them, when he said, βIβm going to get back to Antarctica.β They said, as they called him boss, βIβm signing up, boss.β What kind of leader, when he almost kills people, they survive, say Iβm going back with you to the scene of the crime. Thatβs almost insanity, but it shows how much they almost worshiped him and what a leader he was, a truly remarkable man.
Gary S:
And a couple of other guests weβve had in the perspective area of shows and as long as weβre at Harvard, letβs stay there.
Warwick F:
Indeed. Indeed.
Gary S:
Thereβs a couple more Harvard folks. One of them that we talked to for a perspective episode was Joseph Badaracco, who wrote a couple of books that really speak to some important ways to deal with, move beyond crucibles. Talk a little bit about why Joseph Badaracco was an interesting guest for us.
Warwick F:
He has a recent book, Step Back, which really talks about how important it is to reflect, which in the busy life that we live, so many leaders and their all connected to phones, emails, constant messaging, thereβs so much going on that people donβt take time to reflect. And if youβre just like some Energizer Bunny thatβs always acting and not reflecting, you probably wonβt make good decisions. Action is important, so is reflection. Itβs almost like the lost art of reflection, but the book that really intrigued me was his earlier book from almost 20 years ago called, Leading Quietly. And I remember reading an article about it and then I read the book, and what was amazing is, a lot of us, including me, we grew up with the heroic leadership model. Winston Churchill, Abraham Lincoln or superheroes and movies, and great men, great women doing incredible things.
Warwick F:
Heβs written a book about a whole bunch of folks in letβs say, middle management, that we never would have heard of, just taking those quiet day-to-day steps to make a difference, even though youβll never read about them in Businessweek. And that was haunting for me because I grew up wanting to beβ¦ Maybe not wanting to be, but thinking, okay, I can be the savior of the family business, bring it back to the ideals of the founder, have it be well-run, be like this crusader or Charge Of The Light Brigade thing and Crimean War in the 1850s, a whole other story, but sort of this hero type, and I realized that heroic model of leadership is often dangerous, treacherous, and is often not helpful. So his model of leadership is different and I found that very compelling, convicting, haunting even.
Gary S:
Yeah, and the idea of the importance of reflection, one of the things that struck me before we talked to him is you really canβtβ¦ Weβve talked a lot here and on the podcast, we talk a lot about the importance of learning the lessons of your crucible. Whatβs in there that you can learn and apply to moving forward beyond the crucible? And thereβs really no way to learn the lessons of your crucible if you donβt reflect on them.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, and one of the things he talks about is the difference between ruminating and reflecting. And Iβd never heard about this. I never thought about it. Ruminating is, oh my gosh, Iβm an idiot. Why did I do that? Iβve spent some time ruminating. I fully understand the concept of rumination, but reflecting is like, okay, I was an idiot or maybe that wasnβt fair or that was awful, but what can I learn from it? What lessons can I learn? How do we move forward? And in general, as weβre trying to build our vision and make it reality, where am I do I have the right team? What lessons do I need to learn? Whatβs the next step? You got to reflect and act. Itβs a cycle. And what he talks about is you can take, maybe itβs on the way to work, maybe itβs while youβre working out. We all have times, if we really think about, where we can consciously say, βOkay, Iβm going to use this time to reflectβ So yeah, very profound stuff from him.
Gary S:
Weβll move from Harvard Business School Professor Joseph Badaracco to Harvard Negotiation Project Lecturer and Harvard Law School Lecturer, Sheila Heen, another prospective guest who talked about another thing that it seems to me is not possible to move beyond your crucible, unless you do this, unless youβre willing to do this. And that is have difficult conversations. You really canβt, as a leader in particular, as a leader who is facing a crucible experience and trying to move past it, move beyond it, youβre going to have to engage in some difficult conversations, arenβt you?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. She has two interesting books. There was the one that she co-wrote, Difficult Conversations, and then she has another one, which is, Thanks for the Feedback. Thanks for the Feedback is intriguing because so often, weβre taught by HR and other folks, okay, how do you give feedback well, but she was talking about how do you receive feedback well? Even if itβs not particularly well given. That was a fascinating discussion, but really this whole notion of difficult conversations, many folks avoid it, whether itβs your boss or people at work, and if they do it, it will often be done really poorly, like yelling and screaming is not a good way to have a difficult conversation. You will almost certainly wonβt be heard. I donβt know if itβll make you feel good or not, but it will accomplish pretty much nothing with almost a hundred percent certainty, guaranteed.
Warwick F:
She talks about really, three paradigms, what happened, the feelings conversation, the identity conversation. We can always argue about, well, it was your fault. That was my fault. And you can debate about what happened. You can get into this whole intellectual debate. Youβre almost having a court case. You can go there, but really what she focuses on, focus on the feelings, make sure the other person feels heard. I hear what youβre saying. Obviously that was devastating to you. It doesnβt mean to say that you agree with what theyβre saying, but you acknowledge the feelings and realize, well, maybe part of it, they have a sense of identity thatβs wrapped up in their position, so her whole notion of how to have a difficult conversation well, it is so good. Well worth listening to the episode and reading her book, Difficult Conversations. Great stuff.
Gary S:
Well, that brings us and Iβve been waiting all show to say this. That brings us to the moment where I can see the fasten seatbelt lights come on. The gather up your peanut bags, weβre getting to the point itβs almost time to land the plane, but weβve got one more section before the plane touches down. Weβve got one more section to go through, and it really is, I see it as the bookends to our conversation. And that is episodes that weβve had in our first 49, this being our 50th, itβs conversations between me and you. Itβs conversations about some of the key principles of crucible leadership, and what I like about what we chose is the two weβre going to focus on, as they really are the bookends, from my perspective, on what crucible leadershipβs all about.
Gary S:
The first one weβll talk about was an episode on perseverance fatigue and the idea there, Warwick, is that if youβre going to get through a crucible, you got to have perseverance. What weβll talk about after that, after we talk about perseverance fatigue is, weβll talk about one of our first episodes, episode four, which was about significance over success. And I end every episode talking about how crucibles arenβt the end of your story, theyβre the start of a story. It can be a most rewarding story because it leads at the end, if you learn the lessons of your crucible, to a life of significance. So this is truly a great place to land the plane, but letβs talk first about this idea of perseverance fatigue. You say something in that episode that even when it feels overwhelming and thereβs no-
Warwick F:
Even when life can feel overwhelming and thereβs no hope, just take that one small step. It could be apply for that next position, even when you think itβs hopeless. Have that one more networking call. In J. K. Rowlingβs case, send out one more manuscript to one more publisher. Whatever the positive step is, no matter how small each day, try to take one small step. That could be journaling about the kind of position you would like to get, but itβs the importance of taking one small step at a time each day, each week. That is probably the foundation of getting out of a bottomless pit, even when that small step can seem like, well, even if it happens, so what?
Gary S:
Why is taking one small step so important to getting beyond your crucible?
Warwick F:
Yeah. There are times in which youβve been through a crucible and maybe youβre in the middle of it and you can feel like youβre in the bottom of the pit. Thereβs no light at the end of the tunnel. If there is, itβs another train gonna hit you. Things seem grim. There seems no hope. And so, it can seem like, well, whatβs the point of taking one small step? I need to take a gigantic leap, but one small step, so what? Iβll still be at the bottom of the pit, but really one small step can lead to another small step. It could be, maybe you were fired. It could be, okay, well, what other jobs can I take just thinking about that? Maybe youβre dealing with a family illness, maybe going to have a walk with a friend just to get your mind off things, and just recharge the batteries a bit.
Warwick F:
Those are all really important. So the power of one small step is, it doesnβt seem much, but one small step can lead to another, and pretty soon thereβs a flywheel, whether itβs bringing a vision to reality, getting through a crucible. The power of one small step cannot be underestimated to just help you move in a positive direction. Sitting and ruminating and saying, βOh, woe is me.β Thatβs not really going to get you anywhere. Taking one small positive step, no matter how small, that is a step to getting out of the bottom of the pit, and that is a step towards having hope.
Gary S:
Yeah, and I think if we went back and we went through all of our guests, let alone all the guests weβve talked about today, and we looked at their stories of bouncing back from their crucibles, moving beyond their crucibles, we would find a one small step that they took. We would find, I think thatβs probably true of everyone.
Warwick F:
Oh, Iβm sure it is. Maybe with Ernest Shackleton, itβs like, okay, here we are, weβre stuck in the ice. Well, letβs get the crew off and letβs get them in tents. I think one time, he had some strange game, animal, vegetable, mineral, some weird game to make people laugh, a little like charades or whatever. Well, that doesnβt seem like a big step. Letβs have a game. Howβs that going to get his crew rescued? Itβs not, but itβs going to take their minds off things for maybe half an hour or an hour. Itβs a small step, but itβs an important small step.
Gary S:
And what ends up with small steps, you put them together like a puzzle. You put one foot in front of the other as the Christmas special so resoundingly says. If you put one foot in front of the other, soon youβll be walking out the door and soon youβll be getting through your crucible. Soon youβll be on the other side.
Warwick F:
Soon youβll be helping to have your vision become reality. One small step.
Gary S:
And what that is, the other side of the door, when you get through the door, your vision becoming a reality. The goal that we talk about, the goal that you talk about and have talked about at Crucible Leadership since the outset, even before this podcast existed, the goal that weβre after is a life of significance.
Warwick F:
The first step is to leading a life of significance is understand what your fundamental beliefs and values are.
Gary S:
And that is a critical point for listeners to understand because you said it just now. A life of significance is individual. Your life of significance is rooted in who you are. Itβs not what society deems necessary to do. Itβs what you, what your vision and what your values and beliefs inform you to want to accomplish.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, thatβs really the key first step is just, well, itβs a couple of things in leading a life of significance. Youβve got to understand your fundamental beliefs and values, and thatβs what we often talk about in crucible leadership. You want to understand how youβre wired, how youβre designed. Weβre all wired a different way. And again, weβve talked extensively on this, but basically to lead a life of significance, you want to feel like youβre using the skills and abilities that I would say youβd been divinely given for a purpose that you feel off the charts passionate about thatβs in line with your fundamental beliefs and values, and you feel is accomplishing something significant. Those things will all line up, by definition. If itβs something tied to your values and beliefs, well, then you will feel itβs important and itβs hard for that not to be significant if the vision is coming directly out of those values and beliefs, and in some fashion helps other people. It will line up if you follow that path.
Gary S:
Why is a life of significance the true North, that which weβre aiming at as we look to emerge from a crucible?
Warwick F:
Itβs funny. One of the things we donβt do here is say, Crucible Leadership, a life of success. And thereβs nothing wrong with success, but success in of itself, doesnβt satisfy, doesnβt bring you joy. Thereβs not one person that weβve had on this podcast that can say, success alone, in and of itself, made me joyful and fulfilled. Not one person. Weβve had about as diverse group of guests in experience, life, nationality, background, experiences you could possibly imagine, and Iβm not against success. Success is fine. Being able to have a nice vacation, a nice house or a nice life for your family, nothing wrong with that. Thatβs good, but it doesnβt bring happiness in itself. Significance, we talk about significance as reallyβ¦ A life of significance is based on your fundamental beliefs and values. Itβs something that youβre passionate about. Itβs really a life significance, is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.
Warwick F:
Thatβs really what a life of significance is, and itβs when you bring joy to others, thatβs when you have joy in your own eyes. Whether itβs David Charbonnet seeing a vet getting a little bit more movement than he or she could the previous day. Okay, thatβs positive. When itβs seeing Cathleen Merkel, working with women leaders saying, βBoy, I can be successful and have a life, a balanced life and have joy,β that brings Cathleen Merkel joy. When Michelle Kuei inspires people with hope that you donβt have to be defined by your narrative. You can be perfectly normal, even in your differences and in your hardships. That sense of when you see the light in somebodyβs eye, when you see hope in somebodyβs eye, it brings you joy. It gives your life meaning. And when you think of the legacy concept and youβre on your death bed, okay, Iβve helped people. I brought joy to other people. Hopefully Iβve brought joy to my family. A life well lived. Iβm at peace. We all want to be at peace at that point in our lives. We all want to feel, okay, this is a life well lived. And thatβs what a life of significance is all about.
Gary S:
So as we wrap up episode 50 of Beyond the Crucible on a discussion of living a life of significance, how has it felt for you in the 49 episodes that weβve finished before this one? With the feedback youβve gotten from people, whoβve heard it, with being able to talk to people, having people say that they never really thought about their story like that until you asked them that question, how has the experience of this podcast and the first 49 episodes fueled your own life of significance?
Warwick F:
In a couple of ways, Iβve loved getting to know a whole lot of people, pretty much none of whom I knew before, and just hearing about their life of significance, hearing about what they went through, their experiences, just learning from them, learning from all of the things theyβve been through. So just, I feel like itβs almost one massive PhD course in terms of the human spirit, of how you combat adversity, how you combat terrible things that happen in your life. All of them bounce back from so many different kinds of crucibles and they have joy. All of them are leading lives of significance. All of them are focused on helping others. So, just seeing the triumph of the human spirit and using different ways maybe, but they all have hope, that was inspiring. I love, as you say, going for the heart. What were you feeling?
Warwick F:
When we were chatting to, someone we havenβt talked about as much, Lisa Blair, everybody wants to know about how she survived sailing single handedly around Antarctica. Very few people ask her about what was it like to be a young girl growing up in Australia being bullied and overcoming dyslexia, reinventing yourself, having more confidence. People donβt really go there, but I wanted to know, well, who is Lisa Blair? Not just the person you all read about, at least in Australian publications. So with every guest we want to know, who was the real Sarah Nannen? Who was the real Cathleen Merkel? Who was the real Ernest Shackleton? Who was the real Robert Krantz. We want to know who they really were, what they thought and felt. And so, if that hopefully brings some insight and hope to other people, one of the things we say here is, weβre dealers in hope. We like to offer hope, and if that offers people hope, then this is a worthwhile mission. So, I feel like Iβve learned a lot from their stories of love, being able to share those stories with others, and itβs given me hope personally, more hope. Not that I didnβt have some before, but itβs fueled that even more. So, itβs been an honor and a privilege to be able to hear the peopleβs stories and to share them with others.
Gary S:
Well that, Captain Fairfax, is a perfect landing of the plane. Listener, thank you so much for spending, what we know is a little bit longer time than you normally get to spend with us, but this was a celebration. We were having a party here talking about truly a milestone, 50 episodes of Beyond the Crucible, and what we hope came out of this discussion, what we hope you take away from this discussion is, what we say at the end of the 49 episodes that came before it, and that is this:
Gary S:
We know. We understand because weβve been through them ourselves. We know your crucible is painful. We know that those traumas, tragedies, setbacks, failures change the trajectory of your life, but we also know from our personal experience and from what guests have shared on the show, that those crucibles arenβt the end of our stories and that pain is not the last thing that weβll feel, that if we learn the lessons of our crucibles, and if we take one small step at a time moving forward, armed with those lessons, to pursue a life on purpose, to pursue life beyond the crucible, we know that the next chapter of our lives is going to be more rewarding, that our crucibles are not the end of our story. They are in many ways, the beginning of our story, and itβs a great new story because it leads where the GPS takes us to. The end of the line is a life of significance.
It’s the most wonderful time of the year, right? Except it doesn’t always feel that way. The holidays can bring on some serious emotional crucibles — from tensions among family members, sadness over those who are no longer with us, even struggling to overcome our disappointment in decisions made by loved ones. That’s what BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host and Crucible Leadership founder Warwick FairfaxΒ faced after a long-ago picture of his late father gave rise to emotions he wasn’t expecting.Β How did he move beyond those feelings? As he discusses in this episode, he focused on the blessings of the present and the opportunities of the future.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
π Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Warwick F:
Over the holiday period, I guess the question we want to ask ourselves is, especially for those that maybe aren't following a course, aren't charting a course that they really excited about, that they believe is meaningful, what one decision you're going to make this holiday period, this Christmas season, this New Year's season, that will move in a positive direction. I'm not a huge believer in new year resolutions, because you make them and then you forget them. But maybe a life resolution or a... What's one small step that will take you in a direction that's positive?
Gary S:
Now, that's a question to ponder at this time of year. And it's a question that was prompted for Warwick by something many of us, maybe even most of us, are experiencing right now, dealing with the challenges that come with a holiday season. This is, after all, the time of year when we're supposed to be singing about tidings of comfort and joy. But what if instead, were struggling with sadness and broken relationships? Instead of auld lang syne, we're dealing with old wounds. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. Today, in what I'm going to go ahead and call, I'm going to do it, I'm going to call this a very special holiday episode of Beyond the Crucible.
Gary S:
Warwick and I discuss the reality of those feelings that are anything but holly and jolly. We talk about moving beyond the disappointments and heartache of our past, and charting a new hopeful course for the future. How do we do it? We've got wisdom from everyone from Abe Lincoln to Bono, to inspire and inform us along the journey. And the first step, as Warwick explains, is just that, taking that first step into a bright new future of significance.
Warwick F:
It's interesting, the holidays... And in the US, there's a few of them: Thanksgiving, Hanukkah, Christmas, New Years. Australia, of course, we don't have Thanksgiving. But yeah, the holidays can be a joyous time with family. And with Coronavirus, for many of us, our family gatherings are not as big as they normally are, which obviously there's that sense of loss there with grandparents and cousins and extended family. And it can be a joyous time, but it can also be a time of loss, or maybe there's conflict, maybe broken relationships with family, maybe friends. So, it's...
Warwick F:
Often, during the holidays, there are mixed emotions, conflicting emotions. And it's often a time of reflection, a time of contemplation. And... Yeah. I guess, for me, that was the case. And what triggered this ... And I'm a reflective person by nature, full disclosure.
Gary S:
Our listeners... I think, by now, our listeners are well aware of that Warwick. And I mean that in the best possible way.
Warwick F:
Like with any quality we have, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. I mean, there's always a positive and a negative side for any of our traits. And so, I am reflective. And so, really what triggered this time of reflection for me... I was just going through some old photographs. And by old, I mean really old. As listeners will know, when I was born, my dad was in his late 50s. So, he was actually born in 1901. Yes, that's 1901.
Gary S:
Wow.
Warwick F:
We're talking like 120 years ago, or something. Whatever the math is, it's a long time ago. Obviously, he's passed away a long time ago, both my parents have now passed. And so, I was looking at this photograph. I think it was probably when he was about 20, 21. It was somewhere around 1922. And YouTube, you can see it, maybe we'll put it in the show notes. So, see if I can kind of hold it there. So, for people that can see this on YouTube, my dad is sort of the young guy in the jacket. He is the youngest guy there. His mom is to the right of him. She was pretty tall. And... So, obviously this is very old people are wearing this, the early 20s kind of clothes. And it's funny. This came in this kind of wild... this Kodak film wallet. See if I can hold this up here for people.
Gary S:
Oh wow.
Warwick F:
And this is Kodak. It says... This is from Oxford, where my dad was. On the back, it says, "Kodak film is the best film for Kodaks and Brownies." Brownies was a very old fashioned form of camera. So, this was like...
Gary S:
Back in the days before your phone was your camera.
Warwick F:
Yeah. This is like way way back, before then.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
So, okay. It's just a photograph. So, it's kind of like, "So what?" And so...
Gary S:
But that photograph... Right? That photograph triggered some reflective emotions in you.
Warwick F:
It did, because here's this guy who... Hold it up again. A pretty good looking guy, seemed to be relaxed, at ease, obviously came from a well-off family. My family has had significant wealth for generations. So anyway, I guess the point is, as I looked at that, it triggered a bunch of emotions. I remember thinking, "Okay. He doesn't know what is to come." But he was to be married three times. While the family seemed pretty happy back then, there were rifts within the family which is... variety of reason... between my cousin, or a cousin of my dad and my dad's eldest son, who was by his first marriage.
Warwick F:
And any time there's divorce, it absolutely affects the kids. I was fortunate because I was from the last marriage of my dad and my mother, who was married before. She married my dad. So, I didn't grow up with... a child of divorced parents. I was fortunate. But it takes an effect. And so, I looked at that, and it was almost sort of wistful. It's like... I knew, obviously, who my dad was and my grandmother. But I have no idea who these other people are. It's too long ago. There's nobody alive who would have a clue who these people are.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
So, part of it was this wistful sense of, for generations in my family... Certainly, as the listeners know, the founder of the family business, John Fairfax, was a person of great faith. So, it seemed like there were good marriages, no divorce. As far as I know, happy marriages. It was just really close knit family. And then, this is about 1922 or something. Over the decades, somehow, maybe it was more power, more money, more marriages... Somehow, the family... There were rifts within the family. Children of divorced parents, that has an affect. It was a tendency back then, if you were wealthy, to raise your kids with nannies. That would be true in Australia, in the US, in the UK, in that time frame.
Warwick F:
So, I kind of looked at that. I was almost partly wistful, partly it's like... My dad was a good man in a lot of ways. But it's like, "Gosh dad. Did you have to get married three times? Couldn't you have been a bit more thoughtful?" And the devastation in the family, and just... Both my parents have gone. The house where I grew up, in Fairwater, which was a pretty amazing house, that's gone. So, it was a sense of loss of what's no longer here, and a sense of sadness, a little bit of anger at my dad for maybe some decisions that could have been better, and rifts in the family. Not all of them were his fault. But there were some things he did that probably weren't helpful.
Warwick F:
And so, there was mixed emotions of wistfulness, sadness. Why couldn't things have been like they were prior to my father generation? Really a complex set of emotions that kind of almost saddened me, depressed me, a little bit. So, it was a... That one photo set off a flood of emotions and thoughts, as photos often do.
Gary S:
Yeah. And it's not... It's interesting. You described some things about your family. Your great-great grandfather started this media business, and he was a man of faith. And I know what you know, not as intimately as you know it. But I know what you know from reading his biography written by another member of the family that his relationship with his wife was very strong. We say often on the show, when we're talking to guests, that it's amazing how crucible experiences, even though the circumstances of what you're going through may be different, the emotions are the same.
Gary S:
And I think, perhaps in neon lights, what I see here is... No. Not many of our listeners have grown up like you grew up, with a family that had that kind of legacy of influence, and money, and power, and all of the things that come with it. But that legacy of broken relationships, and divorce, and decisions made that have ramifications down through the generations... That is a fairly common, unfortunately, thing in many families. And I think it comes to a sharp focus for us at this time of year. This is... As I said in the beginning, this is the time of year that we're singing about tidings of comfort and joy. But we're not always feeling comfortable and joyous.
Warwick F:
No. Sometimes, it's memories of sadness. Sometimes, it's happy memories that could also cause us to be sad, which sounds strange. But they're times that we've lost like with my parents, who they had their foibles like we all do, but they dearly loved each other, and just memories of growing up at Fairwater on the Sydney Harbor. And Christmas Eve, we would gather around the piano and sing Christmas carols. And he would always be amusing because none of us could really play the piano. And my dad would attempt to play. And I think he probably learned how to play the piano in school 50, 60 years before, but hadn't played much ever since, except at Christmas Eve, once a year.
Warwick F:
He'd play with two hands. And he'd start off playing Hark the Herald Angels. And it would be like, "Hark... hang on, hang on. The... okay, almost got it. Herald..." He tired to do two hands. And then, he would remove the left hand, because it's far easier to play the piano with just one hand. And so, he'd play the piano with one hand and we'd sing a few Christmas carols. But every single year, it would be the same ritual. It would be like, "Dad, give it up. You know you don't play the piano that well. Just go straight to one hand. Why do the two hand ritual?" But, in some strange way, it was this nice memory or... Every family has its own traditions. We'd have a lot of extended family would come over. And we have a huge dining room table, the mahogany kind of deal.
Warwick F:
But we wouldn't open our presents until after lunch. Not only after lunch, after the adults had coffee. And because, in the English/Australian tradition, you eat lunch at 1:00, it could be 2:00, 2:30, or later. And by that point, my cousins and I... There's a lot of kids. It's like, "Seriously? Can you hurry up with the food and the coffee? Let's get on with it." So, you've got some happy amusing memories. But when I think about this sense of reflection about the holidays, yes, you've got the sad and the happy memories in the past which are gone, and mixed emotions. But then, not only do you have the past, you have the present. It's like a Christmas Carol, the ghost of Christmas past, present, and future, all that kind of thing well there's the present.
Warwick F:
And sometimes, that's great. Right now, as I've mentioned and we've discussed with COVID, there aren't too many people that are having a normal Christmas Holiday gathering this year. And sometimes, it can be a sense of joy. Other times, it can be broken relationships with siblings, or cousins. Or maybe we have relatives that made choices in life that we think aren't as helpful for them, but we don't say anything. Or if we have, it doesn't go down well. And we try and love and accept, but we feel sad, sorry, frustrated. Depending on the relationship, it could even be angry. Here we go again. They're going to push my buttons for the 53rd time. And I'm going to try and smile and pretend it didn't affect me. And...
Gary S:
And sometimes, it can be... And I'm going to do... Here's a picture I'm going to hold up. I posted this on Facebook today. This is my family, me and my two brothers and two sisters. And you can see I'm the little guy in the... clearly wearing... I'm the little guy getting held up over there on the far side by my big brother.
Warwick F:
That's awesome.
Gary S:
And we'll show this in the show notes too, so people can see what I'm talking about But there, you see all kids... We were all kids around the Christmas tree. We were all younger than probably... Well, let's see. My brother's 14 years... All younger than 18, most in just early double digits, me in very early single digits. And half of the people in that photograph, or half of my siblings, have passed away, in addition to my mother. I have eulogized half of my family: my mother, my older sister, my older brother, and my stepfather.
Gary S:
And holidays can also bring about the longing for situations like I just showed. Right? There's a lot of people who go through that, people who you've celebrated with before not only aren't there because of COVID, but because of life's... They've left this life. They've departed this life. And that kind of sadness can ring as well at this time. And you can think back on those moments. And you can get reflective about...
Warwick F:
Right. You look at that photo, and you go, "Why couldn't life be like that now? Why couldn't I have my siblings at Christmas, my mom, my stepdad? That was a nice memory. Why does that have to go? Can't we have that again somehow?" And it inevitably, for most people, it triggers those sea of emotions. Yeah. So, it's a time of reflection, a time of frustration. And I guess the challenge with all this is, it's fine to be wistful and maybe remember some of those things, but don't let either the happy emotions or the sad ones pull you down.
Warwick F:
But how can happy emotions pull you down? Well, because they can be a sense of... like that photograph that you showed, a sense of loss. And if it does... It sounds simple to say this. But if it doesn't serve you, remember it, but don't... As one of our guests, Professor Badaracco, Joe Badaracco, said, "Ruminate versus reflect." If it's ruminating, as in, "Gosh, that's unfair. And why did that have to happen?" It's natural but you don't want to dwell on there and just live in it, and let those emotions flood. You're not dishonoring folks by not letting it pull you down. So, treasure those memories. Try to not let the negative ones pull you down. And part of the whole chart your own course is, each of us has our own memories, our own path, our own new beginning, if you will.
Gary S:
Right. And the idea of calling this episode Chart Your Own Course... It's very similar, again, even though circumstances are different from the crucibles that we have on, or the crucible situations that we talk about mostly on the show, or usually on the show, in that you need to "learn the lessons of your crucible." You need to learn the lessons of that wistfulness, of those setbacks, those tragedies, those traumas, those things that we've been discussing that have happened to you. You need to learn those lessons.
Gary S:
And then, it comes... The idea of charting your own course is, how do you move beyond that? It's the same thing that we say about any crucible. You need to learn the lessons. It doesn't happen overnight, in most cases. But once you learn those lessons, then how do you... To go back to a very impactful statement you made in the podcast a few episodes back, how do you take one small step at a time, one small step followed by another small step by another small step, to begin to chart your course beyond the crucible of those holiday woes, depression, sadness, broken relationships, conflicts? How do you do that? And that's what we really want to spend most of our time talking about here.
Warwick F:
Yeah. You said a very interesting thing which was, learn the lessons of your crucible and indeed the crucibles you grew up in, maybe other family member's crucibles. Because we can learn, from our family, things that we admire. And I admired my dad's integrity and doing what he felt was right. But we can also learn from our family's mistakes. Doesn't mean we dishonor them by saying that. But we're going to make our own mistakes. But at least maybe we can hopefully avoid some ones that other family members have made. So, as I mentioned, my dad was married three times.
Warwick F:
And when I was growing up, I was pretty paranoid about that. Because I saw the... Devastation is maybe too strong a word, or maybe it's not... but the impact it caused on my older half siblings. And I didn't want that to be me. I didn't want that to be my kids. So, I was very very paranoid. I wanted... Because I'm a person of faith, I wanted to marry a woman of faith and character. Character was the single most important thing to me. And by, from my perspective, the grace of God, I met a woman of character and faith, wasn't really... didn't care about money or that kind of thing, which, when I met her whilst in the middle of the whole takeover thing, she was American just visiting Australia at the time.
Warwick F:
And we've been married a little over 30 years. And that, as I've maybe mentioned before, is such a blessing. And I loved her very much when we were married. And I love her more now. I loved her a lot back then. So, that... So, I don't take that for granted. Like with any relationship, you've got to be humble and help each other, serve each other, and all of that. But... At least that's a different course than my father had. My kids have not grown up in a broken home. So, that's a big difference.
Gary S:
And part of what is undoubtedly helping you right now work your way through what you described as the frustration, the wistfulness, even the anger a little bit, that you felt when you saw that photograph of your dad and you thought about some of the decisions he made in life. Part of... A huge part of what's helping you through that is focusing on, changing your perspective, getting your gaze off of what went before that you couldn't control, and then putting your gaze on those things that are before you that you're living in right now that are blessings.
Gary S:
And I want to share with listeners, because I think this fits with that. And that's... This isn't the holiday that we're in now. It's passed. It was Thanksgiving. But Abraham Lincoln was the president who established a national day of Thanksgiving. And it's not widely known. It's not talked about every year at Thanksgiving. But he issued his proclamation for Thanksgiving on October 3, 1863. That was just two weeks after more than 34,000 Americans were killed or wounded in the Battle of, I'm going to pronounce it wrong, Chickamauga, in the Civil War. And this is what he wrote in his proclamation. So, as you think about those things behind you, those things that have gone bad, those things that feel hard, think of what Lincoln's saying here, and then what he says in the end.
Gary S:
But this is what he wrote. "The year that is drawing toward it's close has been has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and beautiful skies." So, he's already looking ahead. He's seeing things that aren't that terrible devastation of war. "To these bounties which are so constantly enjoyed that we're prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added which are of so extraordinary in nature, they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart, which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a Civil War of unequal magnitude and severity, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere, except in the theater of military conflict.
Gary S:
"Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements. And the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom." This is how he ends it. "It has seemed to me fit and proper that these gifts should be solemnly, reverently, and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People."
Gary S:
That, to me, is just incredible, that at that point in the Civil War, two weeks after one of the bloodiest days in the Civil War, he could see those blessings, those positive things. And I think about that when you say, despite what you've been going through, as you've looked back and you've felt remorse and regret over some things that were in your past, caused by your forebears, you look at your wife and your family, and you see those blessings. You see those things that give you riotous thanksgiving.
Warwick F:
Wow. That's so well said. Just for Lincoln to be thankful amidst the horrors of the Civil War, which at the time was the most horrific war, hundreds of thousands, enormous number of soldiers died. I think it wasn't... War World One, sadly, was worse. But at the time, in the history of humankind, more people died during that war than any other war in history. It was just staggering. So, to be thankful amidst that is... It's just hard to even fathom. But... Yeah. I mean, I think...
Gary S:
And that was... Let me say this. Let me just add this one thing.
Warwick F:
Sure.
Gary S:
That was something from an editorial. I used to be editorial page editor of a newspaper in Palms Spring California. And I wrote an editorial about this on Thanksgiving in 1999. But here's how I ended that, just to bridge to the point you're about to make. I said, "If Lincoln could find such abundant reason to be thankful in the thick of war, how difficult can it really be for us. Take a few minutes today," I urged readers, "after the pumpkin pie and before the football game," it was Thanksgiving, "to look around your life. Even if it seems more battlefield than bountiful right now, you too can permit yourself to expect a continuance of whatever blessings you find there."
Warwick F:
Yeah. That's so well said. Not many of us are going through the kind of crucible that... As divided as the country is now, that's a whole nother level of division that the country was going through in the Civil War. So yeah, we can... Despite our circumstances, we can always be grateful. And kind of as I was mentioning earlier, I tried to learn from, frankly, some of the mistakes of my forebears, and my dad, because of the way he was raised. I think certainly my older two siblings from my father's first marriage, they were raised by nannies to a degree. This is like the 1930s. My dad and his first wife went to England for like a year, and they had small kids that were like, I don't know, 6, 3, somewhere around there.
Warwick F:
It's just unbelievable you would sort of leave small kids alone for so long. But people did that back then, wealthy families. So for us... Yeah, we maybe would have a babysitter once in a while, but we wanted to raise our kids ourselves, which sounds pretty normal, but it's... For wealthy people, which I didn't, you know... I wasn't at the same level as my parents when my kids were small. I just wanted to be around them. I didn't want to be this workaholic dad that was never around.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
I was there at their soccer games, or dance recitals, whatever. And, as I think I've mentioned before, we do cards, family birthdays, or we say what we most admire about people.
Gary S:
I'm going to steal that idea, by the way. I've loved that ever since you brought it up the first time.
Warwick F:
And what's amazing is my boys, who are more athletic, they got Gale's genes. And my daughter got my genes, which is not quite as athletic. They all say, "Well, thanks dad. You were there at my soccer game, my tennis game, my dance recital." So, we've chartered our own course. And it doesn't mean we haven't made mistakes. But just... My kids didn't grow up in a broken home. We were present parents. We were there. We've tried to encourage them. We try not to tell them what to do. So yeah, I'm sure we've made our own course... made our own mistakes. But we've chartered our own course.
Warwick F:
And so, I'm grateful for a loving wife, loving kids. My kids are all in their 20s. Because of COVID, they're all with us right now. So, that is amazing. And we all get on. That doesn't mean to say there's not the odd speed bump here and there, but I have a lot to be thankful for. We have a beautiful home. My wife has an interior design background, and so... She's a fantastic cook, which doesn't... You're not always a good cook if you're an interior designer, but she's a great cook. But she also knows how to make the house look so wonderful. Her grandfather was born in Norway, so you've got some Norwegian viking little figures around the place. And we've got our own traditions. And I've got so much to be thankful, so much blessing.
Warwick F:
So I think, when you start feeling melancholy... And maybe not everybody is as blessed as, frankly, I am or we are. But focus on, what are you grateful for? What are the things that you feel blessed? And I think don't focus on the negative, especially the negative you can't control, whether it's broke... Yeah. Broken relationships, maybe there are some things you can do. But it's not all way... You can't always solve everything yourself. So, don't get overly melancholy about loss, even if it's the happy memories, the sad memories. Think about the things you're grateful for, the things you have now, that are such a blessing. And reflect on maybe...
Warwick F:
Rather than focusing on the negative. I could focus on the negative decisions: the 2.25 billion dollar takeover, and 150 year old family business going out of the family, and the mistakes I made which caused some rift in the family. I could focus on all of that. But focus on maybe some of the positive things. It sounds a bit too much of ego, but it's okay maybe to be thankful for maybe some of the good decisions you've made. As a person of faith, it's a lot easier for me. Because I can say, "Thank you God." Because I view it as His wisdom and His guidance that have helped me make hopefully a few good decisions. So, I really more turn the thanks back to Him rather than to me. So, gratitude is a huge way of kind of dealing with what can be the crucible experience of the melancholy/wistful feelings of the holidays.
Gary S:
Yeah. And you, in addition to the personal blessings that you've talked about... You've shared, on this show many times, professionally speaking, things... There are those who will look at you still, and say, "My goodness. You could have run a 2.2... a multi billion dollar media empire. It could still be going. And you could be Bill Gates. And you could be all that stuff. And professionally, you could have all this influence." But you've carved out a professional niche that you're quite blessed by, I know.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Part of charting your own course... Obviously, I've talked a bit about family and how my wife and I want to approach that. And fortunately, 80, 90... 95% of the time, on any major decision, we're in agreement, which is an unbelievable blessing, I've got to say. But professionally... Yeah. I could be all kind of, "Oh my gosh. I could have been this powerful media mogul." And we're very very comfortable, but I could have been more than very very comfortable, and had multi millions or billions or something, and I don't know what, the way the uber wealthy are, a house in the south of France, another one in Aspen, and dotted around the place, maybe the Maldives. I don't know. Pick your favorite spot. And some do, and that's fine. But I'm not as well known. I don't have the accolades my forebears... I think I've mentioned in an earlier podcast, my dad was a knight, had the same name as I have. So, he was Sir Warwick. And his dad was Sir James. And then, Sir James Reading. I don't have a knighthood, but okay. So, I could look to the things I don't have, the big family business, the respect and accolades. My Wikipedia entry is not particularly favorable. It's young hot headed kid, could have had it all, doesn't have it.
Warwick F:
So, I could focus on that. But really, what I should be focusing on, which I like to think I do most of the time is... I've moved on from that, from a variety of experiences I've mentioned, through working at an aviation services company, and financial analysis, and business analysis, to being executive coach, to being an elder at my non denominational church and on the... I have been, in the past, been on the board of my kids' school... to now, with Crucible Leadership. I have a book on Crucible Leadership that will come out next year. We have this podcast, Beyond the Crucible, active on social media. I have a blog. And I'm also blessed to have an unbelievable team, obviously, you and I. I'm blessed to have you on the team, the folks at Signal, Keri for the book sales, Steve on the podcast side.
Warwick F:
I'm so blessed. I've charted my own course. I love what I do, helping people think of how crucibles, as you so aptly say at the end of every podcast, how crucibles don't have to be the end of your story, they can be the beginning of an exciting new chapter. I'm really, really blessed, not only personally, but professionally. And I have charted my own course. I love what I do. So really, that's another key is... Hopefully, you have charted your own course. If you haven't, maybe now would be a good time to reflect not just on, hopefully, the happy memories in the past. But reflect on, "Okay. Maybe I've made mistakes. Maybe I've made choices that weren't too good." I've certainly spoken a lot about the choices I've made, certainly professionally, that weren't so good, and that impacted wider family members.
Warwick F:
But now is the time when maybe you can think of, "What do I want my life personally and professionally to be like?" We can't control a lot of things in life. We can't control the COVID pandemic. We can be safe and sane and all that. When the vaccine comes out, that will help. But what we can control is our choices. Every day, we get to make a choice, many choices. Our lives are a whole sum of choices. Our lives, our health, our legacy, is a sum of choices and decisions. We can't change our past choices and our past decisions. But we can change the ones today and tomorrow. So, think about, "What course do I want to chart? How is it in line with my values, and what I believe in, and what I think is important?"
Warwick F:
Today, that's something that we should focus on. Focus on what you can change today. And focus on the future. What do you want your life to be like? What course do you want to chart?
Gary S:
That is almost like you knew I had this book here, and I was going to say this. And you didn't. You didn't know. We haven't talked about this. You were just talking about focus on the future. This is a quote from Bono, the lead singer of U2, and a rock star who probably has a home in the south of France and all that stuff. But here's what Bono said about the future.
Gary S:
"I used to think the future was solid or fixed, something you inherited like an old building that you move into when the previous generation moves out or gets chased out. But it's not. The future is not fixed. It's fluid. You can build your own building, or hut, or condo. The world is more malleable." I love that phrase. "The world is more malleable than you think. And it's waiting for you to hammer it into shape."
Warwick F:
That is such a great quote, and it's right. We cannot change the past. Even some things about the present, we can't necessarily change, certainly can't change other people's decisions and choices in life. But the future, it's... There's a lot about that, that we can change. We can change the decisions we want to make, how we treat people around us, both personally and professionally. We can choose to move in a direction that, as we say on Crucible Leadership, that is in line with our internal wiring. It's in line with our gifting, in line with our values. It's something we're off the charts passionate about. It's a vision that we think will make the world a better place, be it in a small way or maybe even a bigger way.
Warwick F:
The future is something that we maybe can't control, but we can certainly control our choices, our decisions. So really, in the vein of what you mentioned earlier about one's step, is... Over the holiday period, I guess, the question we want to ask ourselves is... Especially for those that maybe aren't following a course, aren't charting a course, that they're really are excited about, that they believe is meaningful, what one decision are you going to make this holiday period, this Christmas season, this New Years season, that will move in a positive direct...
Warwick F:
I'm not a huge believer in New Years resolutions because you make them and then you forget them. But maybe a life resolution or a... What's one small step that will take you in a direction that's positive? Part of moving from the melancholy too, is forgiving past family members. I don't have a lot of angst towards my dad. I deeply respected him. But maybe forgiving him for being young and maybe not making as good a choices as perhaps he could have. But part of it too is forgiving yourself. I really try to work on this. As a reminder, Tommy Breedlove talks a lot about... who we've had on the podcast. He talks a lot about self leadership. Well, part of self leadership is you've got to forgive yourself.
Warwick F:
So, I have to forgive my poor choices, professionally in the family business, and whatever other poor choices I've made, because you can't control it. Learn from it, as I've mentioned. Absolutely, learn from it. Try not to repeat the same mistake over and over again, because history does tend to repeat itself. But forgive yourself. Forgive those around you. And move forward. There's a scripture that talks about... I think it's in Philippians, forgetting what is behind and moving toward what is ahead. That obviously has a faith connotation. But whatever your perspective, focus on, where do you want to move on ahead? What do you want your life to be like personally and professionally? Think of that. Value the good. Let go of the bad memories. Forgive yourself. Forgive others. And move forward, chart your own course. So, that's really probably the key to getting out of the negative wistfulness and melancholy is be grateful for what you have. And chart your own course as you move forward.
Warwick F:
Focus on... Be grateful for the present, the bits that you should be grateful for. But focus on the future. That's your eyes should be ahead. Your eyes should not be on the path that you've walked previously, or at least only as lessons learned, but not ruminating forever. So, don't focus on the past. Don't even focus so much on the present. Be cognizant of it, but have your eyes faced forward, looking to the hills, looking to the mountains, hopefully the rainbows. Just look forward. That's where your focus should be.
Gary S:
That is an excellent point to begin what I often say on the show, as the captain has turned on the fasten seatbelt signs, and it's getting time to land the plane. But because we've talked about Christmas, and this is going to air during the Christmas season, I'm going to say that Santa has indicated to the reindeer that it's about time to land the sleigh. Before we do that, one thing I want to say to you, and to listeners about you, is... You've said many times on this show, Warwick. You've said many times that your Wikipedia entry... And you've always referenced this. It says something along the lines of brash, impetuous young kid, could have had it all.
Warwick F:
Right.
Gary S:
I would argue that, that brash impetuous young kid has grown into a man who does indeed have it all of the things that matter.
Warwick F:
Well, I don't want... If, by saying "well said", it makes it seem like it's arrogant. But I can't think of anything else to say other than "Yeah." The wife, the family, we have the flexibility financially to... not be held back a whole lot, I have to say. Professionally, I love what I do. I have a great team. I go to a great church. I'm so blessed. I am so blessed. Yeah. Logically, I don't have a whole lot of reason to be melancholy, but we're human. But yeah, I feel blessed. And I think maybe others don't have as much reason. I don't know. But I think we can all... There are all... Most of us can think of things that we are blessed by...
Gary S:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
... and things that we're thankful for. You know? You looked at that photograph of your family. I'm sure you look back at your mom and relatives, and you think, "Okay. Everything wasn't all roses and peaches and cream, but there were things to be thankful for."
Gary S:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
Obviously, you're thankful for your current life and... You know?
Gary S:
Yeah. And the guy-
Warwick F:
Got kids, a wife... Your life hasn't been perfect, but you've got a lot to be thankful for too. Right?
Gary S:
Absolutely. My big brother, who's 14 years older than me, who was holding me in that photo, he lives now... I'm back in my hometown. He's my best friend. We've grown closer together over the years. He was holding me just because he was the only one that wouldn't drop me in that picture. And now, we're actually... We're closer than brothers. We're as close as brothers and great friends. So, that is entirely true.
Gary S:
As we wrap up, as the sleigh touches down, connect, for listeners, the dots, Warwick to... from the beginning, when you talked about the picture of your dad and the wistfulness that, that sort of brought to you, and the sadness in some senses, and this idea of charting your own course. Bring those two points together as we put the reindeer on the ground.
Warwick F:
Indeed. I think I can look at that photo and be angry, wistful. It's like... Well, short of heaven, where I'm sure that's where John Fairfax is, I'm not going to meet him on this earth. I'm not going to meet these relatives from three or four generations ago. And that's okay. Let it go. Let go of the fact that my dad made some decisions, not all of which were good. Well, I've made some decisions, not all of which were good. Just let it go. Be grateful for the blessings that you have, but just let it go. Just kind of open your arms, open your hands, and just kind of let it go. It's like, whew, let it go, breathe it out. It's okay. Don't obsess over it. Be grateful. So, let go of...
Warwick F:
Even the good and bad memories, if they're pulling you down... That which pulls you down, you need to let go of, even the good, which sounds a bit contradiction in terms. Be grateful for what you have, family, professionally. And then, as we say in Chart You Own Course, think of the future. What do you want your legacy to be on your death bed? We talk a lot about life of significance for a reason. What do you want your life of significance? A life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. How is charting your own course fueling a life of significance that, when you're on your deathbed, and when others are eulogizing you, what are they going to be saying in that eulogy? What do you want them to say? You can influence that today.
Warwick F:
So, focus on the future, focus on a life of significance, focus on a life that you and others around you will be proud of. That should be... The future, and as you chart your own course to a life of significance, that's really where you should devote a bit more energy to than over reflecting about the past, when it doesn't serve you and pulls you down.
Gary S:
And with that, I can see that Rudolph has dimmed his red nose. The sleigh's on the ground. Santa's scrambling out to deliver presents.
Warwick F:
And you need to give a shout out speaking of Rudolph, to the blog you just wrote. Because it will be great if listeners could read that, because you can't mention Rudolph without mentioning the blog.
Gary S:
Yes. There's a blog at crucibleleadership.com, thank you for the plug, Warwick. At crucibleleadership.com, if you click on Blog, you'll see a holiday themed blog which extracts pivotal crucible leadership learnings from the story of Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, and that beloved special that we've all seen, dating back to its premier in 1964. So, hopefully you enjoy that. Hopefully, listener, you've enjoyed this episode of Beyond the Crucible. Thank you as always for spending your time with us. You can learn more about not just the blog, but about Crucible Leadership. We have some very interesting things going on there.
Gary S:
Visit crucibleleadership.com, poke around a little bit. You'll find some resources, including an assessment you can take to see where you are on your journey to move beyond your crucible. You can find out your profile. Are you an imagineer? Where are you at on the road? And then, what is your personality profile as you're traveling that road? So, check that out at crucibleleadership.com.
Gary S:
And, until we're together the next time, do remember the essence of what we've talked about here. And I'm not going to do what I do often and say, "Here's three takeaways." Because I think the key takeaway of this episode is... goes back to Warwick, what he said a couple podcasts ago and he repeated here. And that is, what's the one small step you can take, as you want to move beyond this crucible of some of the tensions and trials and things that can be associated with the holiday season? Take that step. Find your blessings. Take that step. And, as Bono says, "Get out your hammer and start shaping your future."
Gary S:
Because our crucible experiences, as we've talked about here and as we talk about every week, are not the end of your story. If you learn the lessons of them, if you apply the lessons of them, if you recognize the blessings amid them, it's far from the end of your story. It's, in fact, the beginning of a new story which can be the most rewarding story of your life, which can be the story that leads your virtual Wikipedia entry, if you don't have a real Wikipedia entry, to say that you are indeed someone who has it all. And that is because, when you learn the lessons of your crucible and you apply them and you move beyond your crucible, you find your way to a life of significance.
She set out on a quest to become the first woman to sail solo around Antartica. But 72 days in, when a horrific storm with waves as high as a two-story building caused her mast to topple and nearly sank her boat, Lisa Blair’s journey changed from setting a record to staying alive. In the hours that followed, she called on her months of preparation, all the courage she could muster and her indefatigable spirit to steady her craft — then broke off pursuit of the record to head to port in Cape Town, South Africa, for repairs. But she refused to let the myriad and monumental crucibles she’d endured derail her dream. She launched a second run at the record books that secured her a place in nautical history.
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Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Lisa B:
So I reached for my life jacket, which was on my bunk right next to me and I was clipping it shot, and I just turned to climb outside the boat, and then I heard the mast come crashing down in this sole minute. And it was this gut-wrenching sound of metal on metal, just twisting and grinding and the entire boat shuddering as all the weight changed on the boat and everything inside the boat was just amplified 1000 times. And I realized in that moment that I had just demasted. And so now that means I'm in a broken boat, 1,000 miles from land.
Lisa B:
If I don't cut the mast free or separate it from the boat fast enough, it will put a hole in the boat and it will sink me. So that set off this whole new challenge. And instead of thinking about Australia, which was a full week sail away on this record that I was currently beating, it was suddenly like, okay, I have to survive tonight. How do I survive tonight? What do I need to do to keep myself alive?
Gary S:
It's hard to imagine a crucible experience getting more harrowing than that, chilled to the bone, whipped about by violent winds and waves, alone in the dark in the middle of the ocean, having to think fast, or you just might die fast. That's what Australian sailor Lisa Blair faced in 2017 when her quest to become the first woman to sail solo around Antarctica literally came crashing down on her. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
When we left Lisa's interview with Warwick last week, she had just described what theoretically happens to a sailboat when it loses its mast. On today's episode, the second part of that conversation, she shares in heart pounding detail, what happened to her boat when she endured and open sea demasting. As you'll hear her describe the nautical, meteorological and emotional crucibles that kept crashing into her, you'll understand why Warwick said reading her book about the voyage was like reading a thriller. A can't put it down page turner, he consumed mostly in one sitting. Here's that terrifying, inspiring story as only Lisa can tell it.
Lisa B:
Yeah. So at this point I'd been sailing for 72 days. So I'd gone past South America and Cape Horn and I was just passing in South Africa and I was down at the 45 degree line or 48, 30 South. So I was just over 1,000 nautical miles South of South Africa. And for me, the entire South Atlantic ocean had been effectively one big storm. I don't think I saw any winds less than 30 knots the entire time. So I was in weather that was quite rough. And so it's a six to eight meter wave, that's the height of like a two story building coming down on you. But it was sort of like a normal day at sea, because every other day for that last couple of weeks had been like that. But there was a storm cell passing over me that night that was due to get a bit bigger through the night.
Lisa B:
So the waves were going to get more aggressive and the winds were going to get a bit stronger through that night and it was just coming on dark. So there was that real faint blue tinge left in the sky. And I was having a nano nap in my bunk and I had been down for about 20 minutes when, out of nowhere, I just heard a bang and it was this incredibly loud, just sounded like a gunshot had gone off by my head because it was this metallic after ringing that was going on. And it was just so violent a noise, shocked me completely. And I jumped out of my bunk and I climbed up on my engine box. And my initial thought was that I'd broken a piece of rigging wire at the back of the boat or a piece of rope rigging that we have.
Lisa B:
So the first thing I did was I have this sort of perspex dome on the cabin top. And that allows me when I'm standing on my engine box, to be able to see out of the boat without having to physically climb outside and expose myself to the freezing conditions and get smashed by a wave. So I climbed up on this engine box and I looked to the back of the boat. And the first thing I noticed was that piece of rigging rope was still there and it was fine. And so I looked to the front of the boat and I remember just feeling the blood drain from my face as I looked and my mast is 22 meters long, its aluminum. So it's this giant spear and it was just sticking up in the sky. And now I realized the piece of rigging had snapped and so the entire mast was just sort of like jellying around like a hula girl shaking her hips. And I looked at it and I just remember thinking to myself, tack the boat.
Lisa B:
Now tacking is when we change direction and we change the wind from one side of the boat to the other. So by tacking, I would effectively be able to put the pressure of this storm and these winds from the broken side of the boat onto the other side of the boat that didn't have the broken rigging. And I would effectively potentially have a chance to then drop my sails, run repairs, fix the problem. And as I'm looking, I remember just thinking tack the boat, tack the boat. And so I reached for my life jacket, which was on my bunk right next to me and I was clipping it shut and I just turned to climb outside the boat, and then I heard the mast come crashing down in this sole minute and it was this gut-wrenching sound of metal on metal, just twisting and grinding and the entire boat shuddering as all the weight changed on the boat and everything inside the boat was just amplified 1,000 times.
Lisa B:
And I realized in that moment that I had just demasted. And so now that means I'm in a broken boat, 1,000 miles from land. If I don't cut the mast free or separate it from the boat fast enough, it will put a hole in the boat and it will sink me. So that set off this whole new challenge. And instead of thinking about Australia, which was a full week sail away on this record that I was currently beating, it was suddenly like, okay, I have to survive tonight. How do I survive tonight? What do I need to do to keep myself alive? And it started this whole process of fighting to keep the boat floating.
Warwick F:
And that was a journey in itself. I mean, as sailors would know much better than I, it's unbelievable that you were able to cut it loose and get all those other parts of the masts and cross pieces together and so you start. I mean, talk about when you start heading north towards Cape Town and you've got to cross that 45 degree line. Once that happens, you know you're not going to be in that round Antarctica unassisted no stop record. So when you cross that line, at the risk of asking the obvious question, what was that feeling when you were out of the racetrack and heading towards Cape Town?
Lisa B:
Yeah, it was actually earlier that I had to make that decision. So the next morning after I'd managed to keep the boat alive for the night, I mean, I finished that evening with hypothermia, so I took on a self-treat. I went up on deck the next day, it took me a whole day to sort of patch repairs and clear the debris from the water and clear my rudder and my engine and be able to actually move the boat in any direction. And the storm had broken and it was this crazy blue sky with these enormous waves still coming through. And it was like this completely surreal experience because I knew I had survived, but I was still surviving because I wasn't on land yet. And I was still in a broken boat with no mast. The only thing I'd managed to salvage was my boom, which is this horizontal piece of equipment.
Lisa B:
And so I had to make a decision at 5:00 PM that night, whether I would turn my engine on or not. And I had to analyze whether I thought I could build a new mast and limp my way to Australia and complete the trip without turning to South Africa or void the record, do a smart decision and alter course for South Africa. And that decision I agonized over for hours. And the reason I chose not to continue with the record by building a jury rig was because there was quite a sizable hole in the side of my boat at the deck hull join. And it was at such a structural point that I worried that the structural integrity of the boat was compromised. And if I got between two of these sort of 10 meter waves and lifted, that the whole boat would buckle in the middle and she could snap in half and then game over.
Lisa B:
So I made the smart decision and I made the call to turn on my motor and alter course for South Africa. But I remember just feeling completely heartbroken because this is three and a half years of work. I'd been at sea for 72 days at that point, completely on my own. I was beating the men's record when the mask came down. It was an issue that should never have occurred. It was this extreme case of electrolysis, so it never should have happened. And it just caught gear failure and the rigging came down and I was thankful that I was alive. And I remember just thinking to myself, don't think about the greater goal, just think of the next step. Break it down to, okay, tomorrow I need to do this.
Lisa B:
The next day I need to do that, and just concentrate on getting to land because if I thought about what I was losing or what I'd lost in that moment, as far as the record went and all the work associated with that, I just couldn't stop crying. I was just a mess. So I had to just suppress all of those emotions and not focus on them and just face forward and think, get to land, focus on surviving this next moment, this next day, this next hour, get to land. And then I can think about what's next.
Warwick F:
And that's really important for folks because sometimes you get so caught up in the goal that logic goes out the window. I mean, as listeners would know when I did the $2.25 billion takeover, I was so focused on change management, bringing back the ideals of the founder. There's no breakpoint, failure is not an option that I wasn't thinking as clearly as you were. It's complicated. This is your vision. Mine wasn't really... my vision was more inherited. It's a complex comparison, but you were thinking logically and it's easy in that circumstances to get so bound up with the vision that safety and logic goes out the window. It's funny. We had this historian talk a couple months ago about Ernest Shackleton that you're probably familiar with. And his was a story of the vision and his goal overtaking logic and common sense.
Warwick F:
And he was at in fact... one of the places he ended up coming back to is South Georgia Island, which you passed on your journey, funnily enough. But he hit a point where he was in Argentina about to head off in like 19... I don't know, 15, somewhere around there. And all the experts said the icebergs are further north than they'd been in like decades. Don't go, suicide. He said, no, but I want to do this, this whole pole fever thing that there was in the early 1900s. And he was going to go there and cross Antarctica from one to the other. And he ended up almost losing his whole crew from making a very illogical unwise decision that totally disregarded safety. So I mean, great guy, epic voyage, but wrong decision, as I'm sure he realized later.
Warwick F:
So you made the right decision, you're heading North towards Cape Town. Another not funny, but somewhat amusing in hindsight incident, you put out this not mayday, I guess you call it Pan-Pan, an alert, things aren't looking good and this cargo ship comes up the Far Eastern Mercury or something, and they want to give you some fuel and there's a language barrier and they almost sink your boat. And it's like, I don't want to come up to between the fenders and the boat, that gives us not good, little boat, big boat don't mix. And eventually they got the picture, but that must've been frustrating. It's like, I know you're trying to help me, but you're about to sink my boat.
Lisa B:
Yeah. And I think that that whole experience with that container ship was more traumatizing to me than the demasting. The demasting, I didn't have time. I was just like, you have to fight and survive. Whereas the Far Eastern Mercury the collision that occurred between me and them and that whole horrible situation that occurred, which I'll get into in a second, that was a completely avoidable situation. And it was just unfathomable that they would even expect that. So the Far Eastern Mercury is a 200 meter long container ship. The side of the ships, 30 meters high, they weigh 86,000 tons and I'm a 50 foot yacht and I weigh 10 tons, and the side of my boat is 1.3 meters high. So in comparison, they're a skyscraper and I'm a tiny little dot on the ocean. And when I arrived, so they had diverted at the time of the emergency, under instructions from the rescue coordination center in South Africa.
Lisa B:
And all of this was unknown to me. I had issued a Pan-Pan to put people on alert that the situation could progress to be more disastrous. But given how remote I was, the rescue coordination center, unbeknown to me, upgraded me to a Mayday. And so they said they sent the ship down to help me, but the ship was three days away. So after the emergency, the initial emergency, and when I was limping to land, they asked if they could cancel the ship. And I said, oh, is there any chance they could do a fuel transfer at sea because I only had 200 liters on board and it'd get me close, but not close enough to get all the way to South Africa. If they could do a fuel transfer, that would be a huge help. So the ship agreed and they kept heading south and I kept going north and we rendezvoused three days later.
Lisa B:
Now we were still in 25-knots of wind and six meter swell. So it's still really large swell coming through. And when we arrived, they kept saying, come closer, come closer, we have fenders out. And their fenders were these two tires hanging off the side of the ship at waterline in the middle of the ship, on the starboard side. And basically the ship was rolling so much in this swell that one minute these fenders would be touching the water and the next minute they'd be 10 meters up in the air, and it was just like, they wanted me to tie up, bow and stern line to the side of the ship at these fenders. And if I had been silly enough to say yes, they would have lifted me clean out of the water and buckled the boat, snap me in half and sunk the boat.
Lisa B:
So it was this impossible thing and they were Korean speaking ship and it just ended up in disaster. It was a 12 hour saga of me standing off. It resulted in a collision between me and the ship, which did just as much or more damage than the initial demasting did. Yeah. And it was just this horrible, horrible situation. But yes-
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, everybody meant well, but there was a communication issue. You got the fuel-
Lisa B:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
So eventually head up to Cape Town and that's like, what? A couple months of refitting and you had to make a decision, okay, am I going to do this? And you obviously felt, okay, I want to finish. You've got a new mast and you're going to go back onto the race track at the point where you went north to finish. So were you tempted just to say, let's just pack it in, I've achieved something, but what made you want to finish this thing?
Lisa B:
I fell into a pretty heavy depression when it all came crashing down. And that's why I had to kind of keep that focus on next steps, next goal. And it wasn't until it occurred to me that I could go back, that I could restart the trip and do it with one stop that I actually felt like I had any kind of life again, or any energy or enthusiasm or I could smile again. And so that became my driving factor. How do I make it so I go back? How can I restart this voyage? And winter was closing in, so I only had a very short period of time to actually do a refit. I had zero money. I had to figure out how to borrow the money, find sponsors, work out a way to make it possible. And then I found this secondhand mast that had been sitting in a shed in South Africa for 15 years that happened to be okay-ish a fit for my boat, that I was able to pick up for 5,000 Australian.
Lisa B:
So I put that in the boat and it took me two months to get the damage and everything done. But I don't think at any one point I considered not going. I asked my meteorologist to do an extensive research into how bad was it going to be. When I left, it was a couple of weeks into winter. So I was expecting to be sailing into the world's most dangerous ocean through winter. And that in itself is just an unheard of factor. And I had so many people telling me, don't go, it's suicide. And I guess I had my Ernest Shackleton moment and and I was going-
Warwick F:
But I mean, I don't know. I think not to put him down, I think you deserve a bit more credit, but you had a whole team advising you. They were, they said this is dangerous, it's not easy, but it's doable. It wasn't... There's a difference.
Lisa B:
Yeah, and it's also this idea of an unknown risk that we put in our heads, this expected risk compared to the actual risk that was there, the real risk. And the weather patterns and everything that was presenting itself with the historical weather data, all of that, I'd already sailed through, the worst storm I had on the trip that I'd already sailed through, and we sailed through it really well was what every storm was going to be through the Southern ocean in winter. But I'd already done it once, it was possible. And the biggest concern for everyone was how much colder it was going to be. And the ice line was going to be much higher and the Antarctic convergence line was going to be much higher, which is the difference in the warm sea water and the cold sea water coming off Antarctica.
Lisa B:
So that was probably one of the greatest risks, but I had asked everyone who was telling me not to go, where was the historical weather data that said it was impossible. Because I wasn't making this decision willy-nilly, like, yes, I had this driving force that I wanted to do the trip, but I had done my research. I had justifiable reasons for thinking I'm capable of doing it, given what I'd already done and how well my boat had presented through these storms already. I knew it was possible. I just had to figure out what was I in for and prepare myself accordingly. So, yeah, so I left after the biggest storm in winter had hit South Africa in like 35 years or something. So in the back of that storm, I set off and I sailed south and I probably hit what I would consider my biggest crucible moment, my biggest moment of potential failure.
Lisa B:
The biggest thing I did was I got inside my head too much, and I allowed all the voices of all those people that were telling me I wasn't strong enough, I wasn't good enough, I'm just a girl, this a suicide. I let all those build and their voices built on my own rational, logical thinking fade. And it wasn't easy. I was getting my ass handed to me every day out there. And I was living in the eye of the most brutal storms ever to hit land or Australia, the size of hurricanes. And I was going through it every other day. And I was just getting absolutely smashed. And Climate Action Now is getting smashed. And to just give you an example of what that feels like, when you're inside the boat and you're not outside in these storms, because the force of the wave hitting you is just so extreme that it can rip you clean off the deck of the boat.
Lisa B:
And in fact, one square meter of breaking white water is one ton of pressure applied. So at this moment I was getting in the eye of these storms, 15 meter waves. So that's a five story building slamming into the side of the boat and the waves form kind of like mountains, they're not peaks, they're kind of rolling hills almost as they come through. But what happens is you get this rolling hill and the boat lifts up the hill as it's getting lifted by the wave, but the top three or four meters of the wave throws over like a beach break and breaks and ends up with this frothing wall of white water that's about two, three meters high. And so the boat's halfway up this peak of this wave and the white water hits you and it throws you to the bottom of the wave. And it's like slamming into cement. It's like getting hit by a Mack truck. And you come to a juddering halt and everything, like the g-forces. You can't even hold on inside the boat.
Lisa B:
So you've got to take extreme care, moving around the boat. I have body armor built into my base layers. I've got a crash helmet on board. Everything you're doing is trying to protect injury for these moments where you get slammed into the bottom of this wave. And then what happens is the rest of the wave hits. And so it hits you a second time and then it rolls you on your side and then it rolls you upside down. And sometimes all the way upside down, more often than not around 120, 130 degrees over. And then the wave's passed over you and the boat starts righting itself. So just the g-forces associated with it. And the difference this time also was that I had done all the right things again, but I'd done them the first time, but now I had this niggling sense of doubt that I'd done all the right things the first time and my mast still broke, what's going to go wrong this time? Even though I've done all the correct preparation and I've done everything I can possibly do to make it safer.
Warwick F:
It was an amazing moment that you write about where I think your mum sent you an email that somehow, like any mum, she's concerned for your safety, but there's been some critical moments in your journey, in your life where she said these incredibly wise things. So talk about what your mum said that really, it seemed to flip a switch or just, it seemed to really make a huge difference.
Lisa B:
Yeah. So I had been at sea for about five days and I'd only managed to get 200 miles. And I had a head cold, I was exhausted, I'd been seasick. I had all those doubters in my head and I just, I broke and I quit. In my mind I was like, it's impossible. All those people are right. I quit. I can't do it. I'm not strong enough. And I remember calling mum that afternoon, I'd almost been washed off the deck of the boat by this wave. And I literally had three quarters of my body outside the safety rail, getting dragged off the boat. And I managed to one arm about it, round a piece of equipment and keep me attached. And I called her up and I said, I can't do it, I'm just going to die out here. I can't do it.
Lisa B:
And so she said, okay, well, you can't do anything right now. I'm in the middle of this massive storm. She said, just wait till the morning, wait for the storm to break and then call me back. Let's have another chat. And in the meantime, mum had been thinking about, I spoke to her about this afterwards and she said to me, "I just couldn't imagine you would never forgive yourself if you quit in that moment, it would haunt you forever. You just wouldn't live with yourself. And I just remember thinking how much you would hate that later, if you let yourself quit now." And so she sent me this email and she said, "All right, well, just imagine that you're 72 days into your record. You've never demasted. You're one day ahead of the men's record, which I was at the time and Australia is four weeks away. And you're experiencing conditions like this. You're sick like you are at the moment and you're feeling like this. Would those conditions in that moment in time, if you never demasted, never had this stop, would that be enough to make you quit?"
Lisa B:
And I remember thinking about that and thinking, well, no, I would have been on day 72 of my trip, there's no way I'm quitting. And it was this concept that I had started a second trip by leaving South Africa, that I had changed the way I looked at things in my mind and I realized that I wouldn't have quit. And so I worked out a way to carry on and I effectively stalled the boat out through the center of these storms and just kept sort of bashing my way south and eventually was able to push through it and finish the record. But without that advice, I probably would have turned back to South Africa and thrown in the towel and gone, better lucks next time.
Gary S:
And this'll be a good time to say, I've listened to this show, to this interview like a listener and unlike any other guests we've had, Lisa, talk about crucibles. One after the other, after the other, after the other, after the other, after the other, after the other.
Lisa B:
Yeah.
Gary S:
And you say something in your book, you talked a lot about risk in the last little bit here. And you said something early in your book, page seven, I think it was. No, I'm sorry. This is later in your book, page 186, you said this about risk and about the advice you're getting. And I want listeners to hear this because what you're hearing is crucibles lapping like waves into Lisa's life as she's going through this experience, here's her perspective that she brought to this. This is what you wrote in Facing Fear. "I had known from the beginning of this journey that I might face scenarios that I couldn't have prepared for, challenges that could result in my death." Not everyone who has a crucible has that second sentence, but the first sentence, that you might face scenarios that you couldn't have prepared for. You went on. "I'd spoken with my family about this risk."
Gary S:
"They knew I was willing to accept it because I was following my dreams. I didn't want to let my fear of unknown factors stop me. Still, there was a vast difference between thinking about it or discussing it and actually facing it." You're a great example, and I want listeners to grab onto this example of knowing that you've run the plan, you have it set up, you keep hitting crucibles. You don't want fear to lead you to quit, but you also know the difference. You experienced the difference that you have to move forward, one foot in front of the other. Or insert nautical term here, you had to do that minute by minute, as you were going through these crucibles. That's what we all have to do in our own ways, going through our crucibles.
Lisa B:
Yes, most definitely. And it's again, it's that whole concept of, if you don't try you've already failed. And the crucibles or the moments of failure or the moments of self doubt. They're all learning opportunities. They're all chances where I can become stronger, where I can build my own resilience, where I can... And the big thing that I've found with all of this is that when I get past a crucible or a moment of failure, and I'm onto the next challenge, I'm stronger because I know I've already beat that moment. And so I know I can beat it again. And then when a new situation presents itself to me, and if I get past that, then I'm like, okay, well now I can do that as well. So then the next thing can't be as hard. And it's like with my demasting, a lot of people said to me, why would you want to go back?
Lisa B:
And the biggest thing that the demasting gave me, yes, it was like one of my greatest failure moments in time, but I was able to position it and turn it around into a success. But it also, it taught me that I could face those challenges. It gave me enough confidence in my ability to survive in the most extreme situations possible out on the ocean, that I know next time, if I have another situation occur similar to this, I'm capable of overcoming that because I've already done it once. And so it takes the question mark out of these scenarios and allows me to have the confidence or the knowledge that I can push through it because I've done it.
Warwick F:
And that's such an important point, is rather than seeing it as a failure, reframe... or your mother helped you reframe it to say, well, imagine you're still on the journey, you wouldn't quit. You had a whole... You write in the book, a whole team behind you. Obviously your mum was there, you had a meteorologist, some other fellow that was sort of your go-to person that you would say, okay, I've got this problem, I've got that problem, what do I do? Do you have any advice? It's the rigging company or the engine company, whoever it is, it's almost like a mission control for astronauts, right?
Lisa B:
Yes basically.
Warwick F:
You've got a whole mission control there. An army of people, it's like, okay, who's an expert in whatever it is. So you were reframing challenges that could have made you quit saying, okay, I've learned from this, I'll learn... next time, I'll be better equipped. So you get through that, you get back to Albany and talk about how you're entering Albany, going through the heads there. What was that feeling like? Yes, you'd made a stop, but you'd still gone around Antarctic, that was still a win, right? Because there aren't many people who've done that even with one-stop. So what was that feeling like when you entered Albany and five or six months later, including the two month stop in Cape Town? What was that feeling like when you went there, saw your family and your grandfather and they're all there. What was that feeling like?
Lisa B:
I mean, it was an incredible experience and the weather gods are always proving to just throw the last curve ball at you. So coming up to the finish line, the winds just died. I was actually five hours late for my own party because the weather just wanted to be an absolute nuisance to me. And I was so frustrated because all I wanted to do was cross that line and be able to just say, I've done it and it's finished and then I can focus on the future. And that last couple of weeks sailing, I was already planning the next challenge and the next challenge and the next challenge. And I was already creating this whole scenario of things I was going to go and do.
Lisa B:
So I crossed that line and my family... like nobody was there, I was on my own and a flare was let go on the other side of the bay when they could see that I'd crossed the line officially and then like literally a minute or so after I crossed that line and I drifted across the line, because there was not a breadth of wind, the new winds arrived. And it was just like this big challenge where the weather gods wanted to keep you because they were like, no, we're not going to help you across the line, you've got to work for it. And then the minute you cross the line, oh, here's the wind this'll help. So I sailed into the harbor and as I sailed, it was nighttime. So it was about 8:00 PM at night. And I was sailing down and as I was going more and more boats started joining this kind of little welcome flotilla and my family were on a little motorboat nearby and they started shouting and screaming and everyone's waving.
Lisa B:
And it was this whole sense of elation that you get. I don't think I imagined the arrival. I didn't really know what to expect when I got there and because I was so late, I was like, oh yeah, there might be 10 people on the dock, my family and one or two media personnel. I just didn't expect it. And as I sailed into the harbor, someone shouted out from a boat nearby. There was about 12 boats or so out with me, "Look up, look up." And I looked up and there's this lookout overlooking the harbor. And up in the lookout, there was about, I don't know, 20 or 30 cars. Apparently they'd all been sitting out there for five hours waiting for me to arrive, tooting their horns and flashing their car lights and shouting and screaming, and just welcoming me into the town of Albany.
Lisa B:
So that was so special. And then I docked the boat and the whole dock was just chockers, I'm surprised it didn't sink, but it was just chockers with people and media. And I kind of answered a few questions from the deck of the boat and then I was like, "I've got to get off this boat." And so I jumped down onto the dock and my family still went there because they were trying to come in on this other motorboat. And I was like, "Where's my family? Where's my family?" And yeah. And then finally found the family and gave everyone a really big hug and it was chaos, but it was a beautiful form of chaos.
Warwick F:
And just for US audience chockers is short for chockablock, which means really crowded. So-
Gary S:
Thank you. I had no idea.
Warwick F:
I had to do a double translation there, but an epic moment. So that was special. Then you had to get the boat back to Sydney. You pull into Sydney Harbor and into... it's funny, I was reading about Rushcutters Bay, which is funny because I grew up in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney, Double Bay, which is like two or three minutes away between Double Bay and Rushcutters bay. So like, oh, I know exactly where that is. So you do that, you go on to do 2017 all female crew, Sydney to Hobart. You do around the Australia trip. And at least the end of the book, like about the last line, it's like, yep, I want to go back, as you've mentioned, to do around Antarctica and people would say, well, why would you want to do that?
Warwick F:
But you've obviously... it's like, well, I can do this now. I got this electrolysis thing down. I understand this. So people listening to this would say, well, I'm not Lisa Blair, I'm not this hero. I'm not brave. I can't do this epic thing. I'm just a normal human being. It's funny. I think, I don't know if it's the... I'm trying to think what it is. It might be people in the US that get in the military, the Congressional Medal of Honor, which is in Australia, the equivalent would be the Victoria Cross. And I think the motto of the society of the US Congressional Medal of Honor society is something like ordinary people doing the extraordinary. And it's hard for most of us to think, oh, well, I'm not... who of us could be Victoria Cross people and save your buddy that's near you in war and it's like, oh, that's just...
Warwick F:
But I mean, can you identify that with that in a sense that I'm not saying you're ordinary, you feel like extraordinary, but some people hearing this story say well, I'm not Lisa Blair, I'm not this hero with supernatural perseverance and calm and intelligence in the midst of dire crisis, and I'd go to pieces. And a lot of people might say that to you, you're this super human, superwoman type of person, oh, that's not me because I'm just an average bundle of nerves and fears. And what do you say to those people who say, oh, well, I'm not super human like you, Lisa. How do you answer those people?
Lisa B:
Yeah, it's funny because I had a recent debate with a really good friend of mine like a week ago or so around this topic specifically, because I said to her, anyone can do what I did. There's zero about me that's unique or special. I'm five foot two, I'm not built like an Amazon warrior. I don't have any special skills except that I'm dedicated and focused. And she said to me, "The minute you say that you've lost me." And I was like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "The minute you say that you're not different from me, you've lost me." And I was like, "Well, that's how I feel." And she said the one thing that I should be saying instead of saying that anyone can do it, is that anyone can learn to do it, because it wasn't something that I woke up and one day could do, it was something I learned to do.
Lisa B:
And I think that that's an important distinction that I've now taken on as part of my mentality with it all, because I really struggle when people try and put me on a pedestal or try and make me different because I really honestly don't feel different. I feel like an average, like I've said before, Joe Blow I'm just your normal person. I've done some absolutely extraordinary things, but they're opportunities that opened because people could see my perseverance and they could see my dedication to what I was trying to achieve, but it wasn't like I woke up one day and said, I'm going to sail around Antarctica. I'm going to become this record setting sailor. It was a series of small events and small learnings and moments in time that shaped my values and my beliefs and crucibles and these opportunities. These things that I got past.
Lisa B:
And I remember one of the biggest moments of that was when I did the clipper race around the world, and this is an amateur race. Anyone can sign up to do it. You pay the berth fee, you sign up, you race around the world. And I remember finishing that race and just being amazed that I'd done it, that I had been able to get the funding and gone and raced around the world. And two years earlier, I'd never even thought about crossing an ocean, and here I was a circumnavigator. And I remember asking myself in that moment, well, if I can do this, what else can I do? What else is possible? And it was that attitude that really allowed me to kind of progress and become bigger and try these different challenges. But it didn't start with just one big challenge, it was this growth that I went on.
Lisa B:
And so I think the biggest thing I can give to any of the listeners here today is you can learn to do it. Anyone can learn to do it, but you've got to want to learn, and you can allow your opinions of yourself to dictate your outcome, or you can change your opinion of yourself and go, okay, well, I can't do that yet, but maybe one day I can. And how do I get from here to there? And what are the steps involved and how do I break it down?
Warwick F:
What you're saying, I mean, there's some profound truths that you're saying. I have to confess I'm inclined to agree with you, Lisa, not your friend, nothing against your friend.
Lisa B:
Yes.
Warwick F:
Sorry, friend. But here's why, because anybody can change their thinking. We can't control our height or where we were born. A lot of things we can't control in life, but you change... I don't want to say change, but you have this way of thinking that anything is possible, a sense of perseverance, a sense of learning, taking step by step. I mean, it's not like you wake up... you wouldn't wake up at age 12 and say, great, I know nothing about sailing, hey, let's go sail around Antarctica. That would be dumb.
Lisa B:
Never even thought.
Warwick F:
Because you weren't old enough, didn't have the experience at that point. It was probably never on a boat or certainly never really meaningfully contributed at that age, but it's a step by step. When you took the trip to Hawaii, okay, boy, that's a big voyage. Maybe I can do this around the world, clipper race. Gee, I did that. Okay. Maybe I can do a solo race to New Zealand. The step by step by step. Each goal a bit more challenging than the last, but each goal preparing you for the next. The sense of perseverance, the sense of I'm willing to fail. Most people aren't willing to fail. If I don't get the funding, great, but I'm going to try.
Warwick F:
I'm going to put myself in a position where I'm willing to fall short. I hope I'm not, but I'm going to go for it. I'm going to ask. Everybody can do those things. Step by step, having a dream and saying, it's okay if I fail so long as I've tried my best. So there's certain ways of thinking that you have maybe not everybody wants to go around Antarctica, but whether it's in business, starting a non-profit, helping a neighbor. The thinking that you applied, anybody can use that thinking. I mean, does that make sense?
Lisa B:
Yeah. And I think that's the biggest lesson I try and contribute to people when I share my story is, we can restructure how we think, or we can restructure what our goals are to create the future that we want. And that's coming back to that car ride to uni, that was probably the first moment where I applied some of that thinking. And I saw the success out of it because I became authentically me and I was able to move past that. And so I think anyone has that capability, but it's about you as an individual, identifying that as a skill inside you and then using it as a skill.
Lisa B:
And when you do it once, even in a small way and the smallest thing you could do and go, okay, I've always been hesitant to try this. I'm just going to do this one thing, sign up to a social evening event, whatever it is, and then go, okay, well that wasn't so bad, what can I do next? And it's that constant question that I ask myself, what's next? And I'm always striving and trying to work towards the next big goal. And yeah, so I think that it's an incredible lesson that I can share to people. And I really hope that others listening and who are reading my book can actually find that and take that on board for themselves.
Warwick F:
And that's a good place as we kind of bring to this to a conclusion. People may not be able to identify with Lisa Blair going around Antarctica, but I think a lot of folks, young people who maybe they were bullied in high school, you mentioned you were dyslexic, had a lisp. You were standing up for people that others didn't and protecting people, animals, but you were going to reframe how people saw you when you went to university. For a lot of people, certainly in the US, they go to college. That's not an uncommon thing. And some people don't have a great experience in high school. That's a fairly relatable example you reframed, but that was the first step on your journey to not being defined by other people's views of you, reframing how you would approach things, how you'd be seen. And that step led to many others from Hawaii to around the world clipper race to Antarctica. So they were all steps on the journey.
Lisa B:
The other thing I think that's really important is that if you're looking for opportunity, you'll find opportunities. So if you're not looking for this change, if you're not putting yourself out there and trying to seek these opportunities, you're not going to see them when they're presented to you because you'll be too narrow-minded or to focused on your current goal, that you won't see the opportunity around the corner. And coming back to that trip to Hawaii, I never planned for that to turn into what it did or for me to become a sailor after that, but that was an opportunity I couldn't ignore because it was just such a cool sense of adventure.
Lisa B:
And it was, I could have easily turned around and said, oh no, no, I've got my exams for my education degree coming up soon with the board of education in Australia. And I could have postponed the trip and said no, and gone with this education life very easily and be justifiably able to do that. But instead, I had identified the opportunity and I took it and that's led me on this amazing path. So I think the other thing people need to be aware of is that when opportunities do present themselves, don't say no to those doors that open.
Gary S:
This is the time in the show, and I've been waiting for a long time to say, normally I say at this time in the show, it's getting to be time to land the plane. But I can't say that today, of course, because it's time to dock the boat.
Lisa B:
Yeah.
Gary S:
We're getting to the point that it's time to dock the boat. But before we do that, Lisa, I would be remiss if I did not give you the chance, particularly with Climate Action Now, still doing things, how people can reach you, how they can connect to Climate Action Now, how they can help you in your cause.
Lisa B:
Yeah. Awesome. So I'm still actively collecting post-it note messages. So as Warwick pointed out, I'm planning on going back around Antarctica. So I'm looking to set off at the end of 2021 to do the circumnavigation again. I'm hoping to do citizen science on board the boat as well, taking microplastic samples, water salinity, things like that, so that I can contribute a little bit more back to this message. But if you want to get involved, you can go to my website, which is LisaBlairsailstheworld.com, and you can fill out a form on there under the Climate Action Now tab and make a post-it note. And then your messages will get on the boat for the very next record as a sail around Antarctica. So that's a pretty cool way to get involved in the trip. And the other thing you can do is just share it, talk about it, tell your friends about me. I've got this fabulous book here that you can get.
Gary S:
Look at that.
Warwick F:
Lisa, that is a great cover.
Lisa B:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
So yeah, Facing Fear. I mean, that's pretty relatable, right? Who doesn't have fear in their life? Every human being.
Gary S:
Well, Lisa, you should know I have my sticky notes with me and I'm a big superhero guy. So there I've got Superman there. I will be doing that. Warwick, I'll give you the last word and then I'll close this up with some takeaways.
Warwick F:
Well, Lisa, thanks so much for being here. I mean, your story is so inspirational. I mean, I would read each page and it's like the storms and these preventer lines, which again, obviously I don't know exactly what it is, but reading about jibes and beam reaches and all. I got to put these patches on the sails and the engine keeps going up that gives you electricity to boil water. And every day is like this, you get up and you do it all over again. And I'm like, how does she do this? But it's, you have this dream and it's just one step, one step.
Warwick F:
And it's easy for people to look at this and say, oh, I'm not Lisa Blair, I'm not this unbelievable person, but it's the way of thinking that you have of seeking opportunity, of getting help from your team, of having perseverance, of being willing to fail, being willing to fail means you're willing to succeed. If you're not willing to fail, you'll never succeed at anything. And so it's those key elements of your mindset that I think everybody can learn from. So don't think of, oh, I'm not going to sail around Antarctica, there's nothing for me to learn. Your message in this book can help you face your fears and achieve your dreams. So it's more than just about sailing. It's really a parable, if you will, that I think everybody can learn from.
Gary S:
And in light of that, here from this robust discussion that we've had with Lisa, here's three takeaways I got from the episode. I'm probably very short on takeaways. There are probably many more than three, but here are three takeaways from this discussion between Lisa Blair and Warwick about how to overcome your crucible applied in her life and in her situation, but I think applicable to all of us. Number one, Lisa said very early on in this discussion that you need to ask yourself two deep and meaningful questions. And she didn't phrase it like that, all she said was that she asked herself these two questions and they were, are you happy, and are you doing what you're supposed to do? If not, you can start today to change your answers. You can step into who you are, the authentic you at any time.
Gary S:
And that is the start of a journey you'll not only enjoy taking, but one that you can take that will make a difference, not just for you, but for others, as Lisa's journey has done. The second takeaway point. We've talked about this a lot, reframe failure. It's not falling short, it's failing to try. I'll say it again. It's not falling short, it's failing to try. Not a single goal was ever achieved by giving up, by giving into the fear of falling short. Dreams always die every single time when they aren't even attempted, but when you give it a go, anything is possible. And the third point I would leave you with listener, from this conversation is this, humans think plans are a good thing. Guess what? Crucibles don't agree. They are no respecter of the things we do in pursuit of a goal, in service to our vision. When a crisis hits, getting through it often requires altering your plans.
Gary S:
That was certainly what Lisa had to do. If you adjust to your circumstances, you'll have a better chance of succeeding than if you try to outrun your circumstances. Doing so not only preserved Lisa's journey, it may have just saved her life. So thank you listener, for joining us on Beyond the Crucible. We have a couple of favors to ask you, Warwick, and I do. One would be to tell your friends if you've enjoyed the show, especially this conversation with Lisa, tell your friends about it. And secondly, hit subscribe on the podcast app in which you're listening to the show right now. What that'll do is help us reach more folks with stories like this, with inspiration like this, with hope and healing like this, as well as allow us to reach even more folks who are out there.
Gary S:
So until the next time we're together, listener, thank you for spending time with us and do remember this truth, unpacked so vividly in the story of Lisa Blair, that our crucibles can come in bundles and they are very painful. Sometimes they can feel unrelenting, sometimes they can feel like... they can make us feel like we're done, we want to give up. But if you persevere, if you push through, if you learn the lessons of them, they're not only survivable, they are, if I can make up a word, thrivable, you can thrive beyond them. And the great thing about them is your crucibles, as you learn the lessons of them, are not the end of your story. They are, in fact, as they have been for Lisa, the beginning of a new story, a better story, because that story leads to a life of significance.
