Warwick Fairfax, Author at Beyond the Crucible by Warwick Fairfax

How do you find purpose in your life and work that allows you to create a legacy that stretches beyond the bottom line of balance sheets and the showy flash of corporate perks? Kevin Edwards, host of the Real Leaders podcast, has discovered through hundreds of interviews with high-powered high achievers – interviews that date back to college – that one of the greatest crucibles most face is settling for success and not pursuing significance. The antidote? Finding a calling that allows you to do good for others even as you do well for yourself.

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Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Kevin E:

Work, no matter what you do does give you a purpose. So when you think about where I was at that time, interviewing all these social entrepreneurs, hearing their stories of these Crucible moments, like, “I was 40 years down the line and my kids and wife left me because I was so focused on growth. We shouldn’t be doing this.”

Kevin E:

So you hear these stories and you think about that inception point about when people are actually going to start their work. And we have these career fairs where people come in, they flash all these shiny objects at you, “Come work for my company, we’ve got beer on Friday,” or “Come work for my company, we’ve got this cool office.” It’s not the way to go at all. I think we’ve got a big problem here on our hands, I’m glad that we’re talking about today.

Gary S:

We are indeed talking about it this week, about how to find purpose in your life and work, that allows you to create a legacy that stretches beyond the bottom line of balance sheets and the showy flash of corporate perks. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communication’s director for Crucible Leadership.

Gary S:

Warwick’s guest for this episode is Kevin Edwards, host of The Real Leaders podcast, who has discovered through hundreds of interviews with high-powered high achievers, interviews that date back to college, that one of the greatest crucibles most face is settling for success and not pursuing significance. What’s the antidote? Finding a calling that allows you to do good for others, even as you do well for yourself.

Warwick F:

Well, Kevin, it’s wonderful to have you here on the podcast. I love being on your podcast, Real Leaders. You’re so good at being a podcast host, the depth of questions that you asked, as I was mentioning off-air, the clip that you had of me, maybe one, if not the best, clip we’ve ever had. So thank you for coming on the podcast.

Gary S:

And I’m the guy who picks the clips for the episode. So thanks for that, Kevin.

Kevin E:

I am glad I could one up you.

Warwick F:

There you go. Exactly. Yeah. Kevin, you set the bar high. So, no pressure.

Gary S:

Yes.

Warwick F:

Well, yeah. And just, the whole concept of Real Leaders… I’m just looking at what’s on your website and I love what you have here. Real Leaders is dedicated to elevating and accelerating the global impact movement in order to inspire wise solutions to the issues that matter most. That whole concept of what it takes to be a real leader is more than just success as we talked about in our last conversation.

Warwick F:

But before we get to Real Leaders and what you do now, tell us a bit about Kevin Edwards, where you grew up, the background that led you to really get involved in podcasting and Real Leaders… connect the dots for us about your background and how you got to where you are now.

Kevin E:

Yeah. Thanks Warwick. And yeah, Gary. I’ll go in the same point because I get those guests that come on a show that always give me those long bios.

Gary S:

I know.

Kevin E:

And really when I was starting out, it was just so awkward, just reading these bios, just touting them like, “How about they just tell me who they are.” That’s why I just want to give you something short and sweet. And I am the host of Real Leaders podcast, where leaders keep it real, of course. But I started out really as an intern for Real Leaders. There at the time I think had four employees, so fairly small company, small businesses, I love small businesses.

Kevin E:

The founder came to me and he said, “Hey, would you mind writing some stories on some social entrepreneurs?” I said, “What are social entrepreneurs?” I had no idea what they were, I was into entrepreneurship at the time, I had my own pressure washing business, going to local neighbors and asking them if I could pressure wash their deck or drive way for a couple of bucks in the summer.

Kevin E:

Yeah. This internship opportunity came about and I said, “Well, Mark, that’s great.” I can certainly write some stories. I’m not really that good of a writer, but for young Real Leaders, not that many people our age are reading magazines nowadays. This is the time when Facebook just rolled out their videos. So I had one of my best friends on campus, I went to the University of Arizona, who was the philanthropic video editor, would do all those fun, cool little videos. And he was the best, I mean, he had the whole campus swag going on, everyone was rocking his shirts, everyone wanted to be in part of their videos.

Kevin E:

So I said, “Hey, how about we make business cool? How about I go out and interview some of these social entrepreneurs, and really just get to understand and learn what they do?” So I just went up the West Coast with him in his car after sophomore year. And no budget whatsoever, we just told Mark, “Hey, just give us a shot.” So we rent some basic equipment on Amazon, I’m sure we’re all trying to figure out microphones, I’ve got a nice setup here now, but it wasn’t this way before.

Kevin E:

It was a couple of lapel mics that worked one every 10 times and he had a camera… and keep in mind I’m 6’3, and we’re doing these walking interviews. So my buddy, Tucker, he’s holding this camera up here, he’s about 5’9. So, after we thought, we were biting off more than we could chew, we’re doing about 10 interviews a day with these social entrepreneurs, 30 minutes each. So, by the end of the summer, Tucker had some ripped shoulders there. But, yeah.

Gary S:

And you told me when we talked in advance of this interview, that while you were on that road trip, you stayed at some five star accommodations. I think you indicated you slept where?

Kevin E:

So, first stop was actually in San Diego, and we had a good time there. And then we went up to San Francisco from San Diego, because Tucson is about five and a half hours away from San Diego. San Diego to San Francisco is another eight hours. And we stop at his friend’s place from high school, played on the baseball team there. And San Francisco, it’s my really first time in the city.

Kevin E:

So, we’re in these bay window apartments right near USF, and we’re on the lower level of that apartment. And I remember asking this guys like, “How much are you paying them?” And he’s like, “I’m paying $2,100 for this little lower level.” So I’m like, “Oh great.” He set this air mattress for us in the living room floor. How nice of him. And then there’s another mattress to the side. Oh great.

Kevin E:

So we’ve had a long road trip, we’re rehearsing, trying to do our elevator pitch, “Real Leaders, we reach 30,000 CEOs at 135 countries, who just had control of $6 trillion to spend.” Yeah. And we’re pretty tired. And I say, “Hey, Tuck, I need to sleep.” So I go into this bed, he goes into the air mattress, get all snuggled in and his roommate is studying for his test. And I got a text on my phone, he says, “Hey Kev, you’re in Cooper’s bed. I paid him $2,100, just sleep on a mattress in the living room floor.”

Kevin E:

So I got to move back over to the air mattress, which is of course halfway filled up and has a hole in it. So, slept on the floor that night and had to do 10 interviews the next day. But that’s living situations that we were in, and that’s the art of learning as you go. And so we did those 10 interviews at Impact Hub in San Francisco, went up the West Coast to Portland, Oregon, we went to Bend, Oregon, we went to Seattle Washington. We went to Vancouver, Washington, we went to the US Virgin Islands.

Kevin E:

And through that summer, we did about 30, 35 interviews with social entrepreneurs, CEOs, and any sustainable business that we get our hands on. And it really taught us a lot.

Warwick F:

So when you say social entrepreneur, what is a social entrepreneur?

Kevin E:

Yeah. Social entrepreneur to me is someone who’s intentionally trying to take on a social or environmental problem. And as they grow, as they scale, they’re able to solve that problem even further. I’ll give you an example. Example to me is someone who’s come on our show called Emma Rose Cohen. And she had a passion. She went to University of Santa Barbara, school on the coast.

Kevin E:

So there’s a ton of plastic everywhere, and said, “Why is this? Here I am trying to get this great education and we’re just polluting, throwing bottles everywhere. And it’s really getting into the waste streams. And we’ve all seen the image of the turtle and its nose.” And she said, “I want to end this problem,” and does some research, and the problem ends up being single use plastic. Plastic you use after one time, virgin plastic made from oils.

Kevin E:

So she goes out, she does this viral video, and this video, she throws onto a crowdfunding site, raises $1.8 million and is able to now diversify her product line for for-profit company, making the final product. These could be utensils, wipes, anything that you use one time to eliminate that consumer behavior of throwing away plastic into waste streams that affect our animals, our eco-systems, all of the above. So that’s a social entrepreneur, someone who’s solving also a business problem in a socially constructive way.

Warwick F:

Wow. So you and your buddy showed a lot of entrepreneurial spirit in college, you had this idea. And so, was this with Real Leaders? What was then the genesis of it, about doing interviews with social entrepreneurs? Is that partly how it happened?

Kevin E:

Yeah. Real Leaders at the time, the tagline was, Better Leaders For a Better World. And we focus a lot on diversity and inclusion. And so, hats off to our founder and our leadership team for letting us do this one. But we created a good product. I mean, it brought them viewership that they’d never had before online at the time. So-

Warwick F:

And these were video interviews that you were doing, so they didn’t have that, so you pitched the idea to them. And I mean, that took a lot of courage at that age, because they were looking for articles that sounds like… but you pitched them an idea that might work better with younger folks today. I mean, where do you find that courage and get up and go, spirit to do all of that? Because a lot of folks in college would not be thinking that, well, not even try.

Warwick F:

And then you go to get these interviews with folks, which is not always easy, you’re in college. How do all that happen? I mean, where do you get the get up and go, the courage to do all that?

Kevin E:

Yeah. I mean, it’s a good question. There’s no courage without fear. And so, I had a lot of fear just starting out, here I am, I don’t know a lick about business, but I just wanted to go out there and interview people. I had had a few prior experiences with interviewing people, I was that anchor of our high school news channel. So, I had some experience, but really it was just throwing ourselves out there and seeing what happens.

Kevin E:

And I think a lot of the leaders are those people as well. And I think they recognize people that are different, people that are trying to put themselves in an uncomfortable position and they recognize that. And so everyone that I was able to interview, obviously my terminology, my questions were probably horrible at the time, I probably thought they were good, but it may have not made any sense, but they were willing to work with me, and give me that time.

Kevin E:

So, that’s something that I really appreciated. And as you do more repetitions, that I’m sure you both have found, you get to be more comfortable, you learn little things along the way that you can’t research, things that just come up through continuous repetition. So, I’ve adopted that mentality in anything I do now, just knowing things are going to take a long time, and that’s something that school and anything else I don’t think could really teach us.

Warwick F:

Yeah. I mean, I think you’re answering this, but maybe to other folks in college or young people starting out, one of the lessons you learned from that epic road trip up the West Coast and pitching an idea which… I mean, I had pitched one idea to you, but you pitched it back to him in a slightly different vein, they weren’t looking for the video series but you offered it to them. So, what are the lessons you would offer for college folks or young people that you learned from that whole experience.?

Kevin E:

Yeah. Business owners are more willing to give you their time versus their money. And so, I think it was a pretty easy sell for us to say, “Hey, give us 30 minutes of your time, and we’re going to talk about your career, career path, career advice for young social entrepreneurs, break these videos down, the one to three minutes and bring these success stories alive to inspire purposeful careers. Do you have a moment?” A lot of them did.

Kevin E:

And so, relentless emails, obviously we got rejected 100 times, but people are very willing, and especially people in the impact space, they need that recognition right now. So I think, we definitely fill the gap for them in terms of getting them some marketing material out there.

Warwick F:

So that was a wise strategy there that business owners is one thing but folks that want to have impact environmentally and socially, they want to get their environment out there. Here’s a couple of young guys, and you weren’t just talking about a whole long phone video, you’re talking of video clips, you’re probably a variety of different things that you could package it. So, that was pretty enterprising. So, as you go, maybe walk back and you mentioned… I’ve heard you grew up in the Portland area. Was there something in your background, parents or something that gave you this entrepreneurial courageous spirit? I mean, where does that sense of adventure come from?

Kevin E:

Well, my mother is the president of Real Leaders.

Warwick F:

Oh, okay.

Kevin E:

So, that’s how I was able to get that opportunity, which is very fortunate. And that’s the thing though, Warwick you work in a family business.

Warwick F:

Yeah. I’m pretty aware. Yeah.

Kevin E:

You don’t want to work for your mother. So, yeah. In terms of my background, I think for entrepreneurship, it really just started out with pressure washing and staining decks, doing something that was different. I mean, I was always very active, I was in student government in high school, I ran on community task force that we started, I was pitching in front of a court to get us more money for our non-profit at the time. And I was super young.

Kevin E:

So my parents always made me uncomfortable, always threw me into the fire. And I think my dad’s favorite quote is to make my life miserable, that’s his number one job. So, I always grew up in an uncomfortable setting and always had to persevere over a lot of different challenges, whether it was on the sports team, whether it was in family life, like anybody does, I would assume so.

Kevin E:

Yeah. But also maybe environmentally, yeah. Growing up in Oregon, you’re definitely… I mean, I didn’t realize I grew up in a forest until I moved to Tucson, Arizona. And yeah, I mean, definitely being a part of the environment, being close to Mount Hood, close to the beach, having forests to run around in, and I think definitely played a role in that as well.

Gary S:

As you tell that story. One of the things that leaps out to me, the very first thing you said to me when we did a call, a month or so ago now, first thing I wrote down on top of my paper, “Everyone has their own crucible.” Is what you said. And it sounds like what you were just describing. You had your own experiences, and the people that you talk to had their own crucible experiences. I mean, it’s as Warwick says, if you haven’t had one, check your watch, because in 15 minutes you might have one. But that’s a pretty profound statement for this show to say everyone has their own crucible.

Kevin E:

Yeah. I would agree on that. I mean, what Warwick is saying is completely true, and that’s really the crux of what has kept me going. Interviewing successful social entrepreneurs, CEOs, and you hear these stories about, “I didn’t have any meaning in my life. My kids didn’t recognize me anymore, I had this spear in the heart moment, where I was so focused on growth, and I just lost who I was.”

Kevin E:

You don’t hear these things all the time, and that’s why I think is so great about your show. And Crucible… I told Warwick on the show, it couldn’t be a better word, severe trials that lead the creation of something new. All of these people have had this career realization and needed to do something more meaningful that aligns with their intention. And so that’s what I’m trying to get out with our content, with our show and just out of these interviews as well. But I don’t think we do as good of a job as Crucible.

Warwick F:

No, you guys do awesome. Just one more beat on the background. I always love the backstory, it sounds like either or both of your parents, must’ve had some entrepreneurial spirit. I mean, your mom founding Real Leaders must have had something. But it also sounds like… I mean, I grew up in a very affluent background and sometimes people who have had some degree of success, they can cushion their children from… put them in little cotton balls, what have you.

Warwick F:

And it sounds like you were challenged, whether it’s athletically or what have you, I know we don’t get into all the details, but it sounds like there was somethings maybe they did right, in the sense of just challenging you and not just making… you know what I mean? They add some-

Kevin E:

Yeah. And again, everyone has their own crucible, and everyone is different. So, my mother did not found Real Leaders, she is now the president. She is married to the founder. Mark said… okay, it came up. But when I was growing up in high school, they weren’t together at the time, my mom actually didn’t have a job, she lost it during the economic recession. My parents are divorced.

Kevin E:

And I also had a lot of pain growing up with my brother, not going over to my father’s house growing up. So, I think it was really, like you said, Warwick in the show, that you got a reputation to hold, you didn’t want to go out, you want to be exposed. So that was who I felt had those expectations on me, a lot of pressure because of my older brother’s habits and reputation within the community.

Kevin E:

So, it was a pretty difficult upbringing, I didn’t really notice it as much at the time, as you grow up, you realize things aren’t okay. But I think that was definitely a crux for what made me go out there and try to be involved and show our community that, “Hey, look, the Edwards family can really contribute and be a big staple in this community as well.” To the teachers, to the faculty, to anyone that may be had heard different and we can make a change.

Kevin E:

And so, I don’t like to speak too much about my brother, because I know he’s going through a hard time right now, and he’s doing incredible things in terms of his recovery. So, but at that point in time, as we all know, family members that are struggling with addiction, it was very difficult to hold the family together and put on this face to friends and family members and coaches.

Warwick F:

We all have challenges in life, but for you, with your crucible experiences, it motivated you to go in a positive direction to contribute, to capture people’s stories of people doing good. I mean, again, we don’t need to talk more about background, but it sounds like all those experiences helped form your values and who you are and what motivates you. Is that a fair statement? Would you say?

Kevin E:

Yeah. I would think so. Yeah.

Warwick F:

Yeah. So let’s talk about, with Real Leaders and what you do. I think you’ve talked a bit about this, but what are you passionate about? What is who you say, this is my calling, this is Kevin Edwards’ calling. Because it sounds like… some people don’t know, but I’m guessing you’re one of these people that actually know, you have a sense of mission and calling in terms of what you do, would you say?

Kevin E:

Yeah. My intention is definitely to have the most meaningful conversations that transform lives. Gary, I told you I got one lines for a lot of different things, that’s it? And it actually comes from a lot of trying… I was trying to do a lot of why workshops, and really peel back those layers of what my north star may be. And it wasn’t until I read somewhere that maybe I should reach out to other people, to affirm actually who I am.

Kevin E:

So I wrote down my five statements, what makes me unique? What makes me unique? This, this, this and that. And I got a lot of funny things that come back, “Oh, it’s that deformity in your chest that sticks out, that’s what makes you unique.” “Oh, it’s your ability to have these conversations with people.” “Oh, it’s the trust that you’ve installed within our family and that you reach out to them.”

Kevin E:

So, all these things came together and I really realized that, at the core, it’s just that I like to have actual, meaningful conversations with people that will hopefully transform their lives. That’s what I find interesting. And I realized that because I eliminate everything else, I don’t watch a lot of Netflix, I don’t watch a lot of shows, I don’t go out and really do anything. I’m very focused. And I write down on my whiteboard every single week, that intention and how is that going to manifest in three different aspects of my life, in my work, in my family and with my friends.

Warwick F:

Wow. Meaningful conversations that transform lives. So it’s hard for me to think of something better than that. I mean, at a relatively young age to have your north star locked in. We spoke on your podcast that, is nothing wrong when you’re in your 50s or older, trying to figure out is life all about success? Is it about significance? And suddenly you’re living… and we define a life significance is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.

Warwick F:

Clearly, that’s what you do. I don’t mean to be flippant but you’ve got that box checked. I mean, what could be more of a life significance than having meaningful conversation to transform lives? So at a relatively young age, you’re already leading a life of significance. It can take some people in their 50s, 60s, it’s never too late. But as I often say, you don’t want to be on your death bed saying, “I think now’s a good time to turn the direction of my life.” Sooner is better.

Kevin E:

Absolutely. And I think for some people we tend to overthink things and we tend to try to be somebody that we’re not. Look, I mean, I did these interviews because I didn’t think I’d have a career in interviewing. I just didn’t really realize it was something that I naturally liked to do. And that just came very natural to me, and I really feels like I’m in that flow state when I’m doing them.

Kevin E:

And so, sometimes when we’re trying to think about our company, we’re trying to think about our why statements, it’s like being in the inside of that beer bottle. You’re in the inside, it’s nice inside, but on the outside is where the label is, and that’s why you need people to talk to, to tell you, “Hey, this is what makes you unique. This is how I see you.” And then where the overlay is I believe is where you truly can be living.

Warwick F:

Absolutely. And by being so clear, that helps you ask great questions. I mean, a lot of business leaders, as I’ve mentioned, they don’t really think their action man, action women, they’re running a mile a minute, and it’s not so much they’re trying to be bad people, it’s so often, they’re not really in touch with their values, their beliefs, whatever that is, what they feel their calling is.

Warwick F:

I’ve done a fair amount of executive coaching in the past, and I’ll often ask this question that sounds flippant, but it’s not meant to be. I’ll say, “So tell me about your values and beliefs.” And, I mean, very few leaders will say, “Oh, I don’t have any.” I mean, you don’t get to be a leader without some foundations somewhere. And I’ll say, “Sir, to what degree do you feel like you’re living your values and your beliefs in your professional and personal life.”

Warwick F:

And sometimes you’ll hear, “You know what, there’s a bit of a disconnect to be honest. I don’t do enough reflection, I’m just too busy making decisions.” And then I’ll ask with a straight face, because as a coach, you’re non judgmental and I certainly try to be. So I say, “What would you like to do? Would you like to change your values and beliefs to better align with what you’re doing corporately and personally? Or would you like to change your personal and professional life to be in harmony with your values and beliefs?”

Warwick F:

And it’s pretty clear to me. I mean, most people, what are they going to say? “No, let me change my values and beliefs. Well, most sane people aren’t going to say that, but you have to ask that. And then, so I guess the point of the story is, using your words, by having meaningful conversations that help transform lives, just by asking that one question, what are your values and beliefs? To what degree do you think you’re living it?

Warwick F:

I’m just asking questions, I’m not judging them, they’re judging or assessing themselves. And so, using different language I feel like by asking questions, I’m sure what matters to you? What’s the goal of your organization? How do you feel that changes the world? Do you have any problems? Talk about your team. I mean, all the questions that I’m sure you would ask, that helps them to think and reflect. It helps your guests think, “We’re doing well, but could we do better? Not just in terms of profit, but in terms of our mission.” Does that make sense?

Warwick F:

Because that’s your way of thinking, you’re going to be asking questions that do transform lives. Good questions, help transform lives. Because I know long-winded response, but does that make sense in terms of what you do?

Kevin E:

Yeah. Absolutely. And really started out with those social entrepreneurs. So what’s actually been difficult for me is to go into this leadership realm maybe where you guys are and have these conversations about leadership, what are your values? How do you go in? Whereas I started out with, what’s your intention? What social or environmental problem are you trying to solve? How do you lead? How does that affect your employees? All of these different things.

Kevin E:

But I think your position is very unique, you’re almost like a therapist in some way. And I know from my podcasts, you never know who’s going to show up on the opposite side of that screen or next to you, they could be having a bad day. You could do all the research you want in them, but until they’re in front of you, you really don’t know who’s going to show up. So, I think what you do is a very special job and it definitely takes a special person to relate to them.

Gary S:

That’s one of the reasons why we say we try to go a certain amount of time, 45 minutes, but we let content not the clock dictate, because it’s just what you said, Kevin, you don’t know, not only who’s on the other side of the microphone, but you don’t know what their stories are going to be. One of the things that we try to do and you probably saw it on the form that we have all guests fill out, is we don’t want to know too much information, because to know everything… we’ve all been on podcasts where they ask you, here’s the 10 questions that I’m going to ask you, and it’s like, “Okay,” there’s no spontaneity there.

Gary S:

And with too much preparation, can come a degradation I think of the spontaneity that leads to those moments that you’re talking about. Those revelations… all of us have asked questions for a living, the best place to be is when someone says, “I haven’t heard that question before.” When I was a reporter, I once interviewed Dick Clark, and I asked Dick Clark, who on American bandstand for 40 years, it’s got a great beat and you can dance to it. That was his gig.

Gary S:

I asked him if he danced, and he said to me, “No one’s ever asked me that question.” I was flying for three weeks after that, the idea of being able to ask someone a question where you’re really paying attention, that’s the thing that makes what you’re doing, when you say that your focus is to ask questions that help change people’s lives. That’s part of the payoff, is listening and then responding in a way that offers a question that to your word, Kevin, is a bit of therapy sometimes.

Kevin E:

Definitely. Yeah, I’d agree. I think the best interviewers are the best listeners, no doubt. I also find myself trying to avoid the leadership. I like to just know who the people are. Are they funny? How do they react to certain questions? Are they super tight in business like this? They only talk in business terminology. So there’s all different types of people that come on the show.

Kevin E:

And yeah, I will say the interviews that I do prepare more for are the ones that are more formal and I don’t like as often, they’re not as free flowing. So yeah, it’s a tough balance, but again, doing so many interviews on the cuff with no preparation at conferences, just on the road with no preparation, being young, you have to get over that fear real early on and just trust yourself in those interviews. And I think that’s part of the reason why I’ve been able to stick with it.

Warwick F:

Absolutely. And you said something earlier that I’m curious about. You started off doing social entrepreneurs and then this Real Leaders you also interview just regular business owners and executives. Talk about that difference, because I would imagine with the social entrepreneur, as you’re implying, you going to be cause-inspired person, you don’t become a social entrepreneur without this burning desire to make a difference in the world.

Warwick F:

I mean, you have to have that otherwise why would you do this? So, what differences have you found in interviewing regular leaders, for want of a better word versus social leaders or social entrepreneurs?

Kevin E:

Right. What is a real leader? We ask that question at the end of every show, right?

Warwick F:

Yeah.

Kevin E:

There’s not one definition, there’s not one right answer. So, I think the overlay between where we are is that crucible moment, is that career transition, because all the social entrepreneurs we’ve had on, had traditional careers, worked for big four, went to really good schools and had that again, that spear in the chest moment. So, that’s where we started.

Kevin E:

I’m always trying to push myself and push those boundaries to say, “Hey, let’s get someone on Paul Stamets, a mycologist.” I interviewed this… I don’t know if you know who this is, Akon, he’s an artist, he’s a big time performer.

Gary S:

Yeah.

Kevin E:

Yeah. I interviewed him a couple of times, let’s stretch my experience out to those levels. Doctors, those are the hardest. To speak on their level is very difficult. Gone to the opiod epidemic. I’ve covered a lot of different people. So I always try and stretch myself. The process is very much the same, but with those interviews, you just got to listen a little bit harder.

Warwick F:

So when you think of your ideal, Real Leader guest, what is it you’re looking for in a guest?

Kevin E:

I’m not looking for anything. And I hate… I know that sounds cliche like, “Oh, he doesn’t really mean that.” No, I used to look for something. I used to look for that person that I could really see in myself, but the more people you have on the show, the more you realize just how different everybody is, their backgrounds, where they come from, how they see the world, and the impact economy. The CEOs are not your stereotypical CEOs, they’re really not.

Kevin E:

They’re not timestamped… I mean, they are timestamped, but they’re not pushy, they’re very genuine people. If you went to an Impact, and I’d invite you both to our Impact Awards, if you go to this awards conference, you’ll see people in plaid shirts with patagonia vests on, the type of quirky people who are all multi-millionaires and CEOs, but just have an appreciation for the outdoors, for people, for what they’re actually doing.

Kevin E:

And I’ll never forget one of my first… not one of my first interviews, but one of my first years of doing it, I asked this guy a question, waste farmers, “What do you do?” And he was taken back by that actually, almost offended. He was like, “That question, what do you do? It’s not a good question.” We tend to, as society really break things down into one sentence or one thing about what we do, who we are, we put labels on things. That’s not what we do.

Kevin E:

So, had a long with an answer for why they’re doing what they’re doing. And I’ll tell you, that was the last time I ever asked somebody. What do you do? That’s for sure.

Warwick F:

I’m tempted. Did you ask him, so what would have been a better question or? I’m curious to know, what is it? Who are you? Or what do you value? I wonder what his ideal question would be.

Kevin E:

Just tell me how you got into this.

Warwick F:

Okay.

Kevin E:

How are you doing what you’re doing? This waste farmers, you’re collecting the soil to regenerate the soil. Why is that important? Where’s the money in this? And then he started to peel back what he actually does, but I think sometimes as interviewers, we don’t do a good enough job of asking the right questions. We ask a lot of cliche questions. I’m a culprit of it, we all are. And it’s really just trying to dig a little bit deeper and listen to them a little bit harder, which again, I think you hit the nail on the head earlier on.

Warwick F:

Yeah. It’s interesting. So it sounds like, you’re not just about interviewing your average corporate leader, Real Leaders and I love that tagline at the end, keep it real. I’m assuming you want to know the real person, what makes them tick, their values, their passions, what drove them to do what they do. You don’t want just to hear a spreadsheet, you want to hear who is the person? Is that a fair assessment of what you’re trying to achieve?

Kevin E:

Absolutely. And I think, I don’t personally have a definition for what a real leader is. I think it’s someone that can create these meaningful connections, and if enough people are connected, then inherently you can have a movement. But what is real is what is imperfect to me. And I’ve really realized that, here we are looking at all of us, we’re wearing blazers, why are we wearing blazers? We’re in our home.

Gary S:

I at least have a t-shirt on.

Kevin E:

So, what is imperfect? And I think in Crucible Leadership, you have to lower your guard, you have to be vulnerable, you have to be yourself. And in today’s day and age, to be that next generational leader, you’ve really got to connect with people in a personal way, because everyone’s on their phones, everyone knows who you are, especially people and millennials, they really want those connections with those leaders and want you to recognize them as well as a human being.

Gary S:

And one of the things that we didn’t realize, or that we were worried about when Warwick started the show, was okay, people don’t talk about failure, much. That was our organizing construct. And then we sat down and said, “Where are we going to find guests? If people don’t talk about failure much.” And Warwick is unique because he talks about his failure and setback, with the takeover bid that didn’t work, “How are we going to find guests who here’s the beautiful thing that we found?”

Gary S:

It’s not been easy to find guests, but it’s been not nearly as hard as it was. And the thing that we discovered that’s so great about it, is that regardless of what the circumstances of the crucible may be, as I’ve said, not many people have lost 150 year old media company at a price of 2.25 billion with a B, which is 4.7 billion in today’s money, but we don’t go there often.

Gary S:

Not many people have done that circumstantially, but emotionally, those crucibles feel the same way. And that’s where the realness… when I think of Real Leaders, that’s one of the things we’ve discovered in doing this show, is that it takes a real leader to come on this show and talk about their most painful setback and how they bounced back from that and how they’re living life now with their eye on their legacy and a life of significance.

Warwick F:

It is amazing. We’ve interviewed a very diverse group, diverse in terms of gender, background, race, as well as type of crucibles, everything from abuse to business failure, marriage, physical injury, Parkinson’s, Navy seal who is paralyzed at a training accident, every crucible you can think of. And they all have something in common, they refuse to lie down and just while away the next 30, 40, 50 years of their life, they often lean into their crucible.

Warwick F:

Like the Navy seal I mentioned, I think I mentioned on your podcast, who lives in San Diego, or I think you mentioned, ended up becoming exec director of this clinic for vets that has some of the top technology anywhere in the country. Well, he’s using his pain again it’s an oft used phrase for a purpose. So, all of these folks we’ve interviewed, there’s commonality amongst all of them. I mean, a lot of the time I’ll say, “Well, almost apologize because what I went through financially was devastating and my sense of self and self-esteem was devastating, but I feel like… well, I wasn’t physically abused, I didn’t become a paraplegic, almost, well, my crucible is not nearly at the level that you went through.”

Warwick F:

And all these people when I say that, will say, “Your worst experience is your worst experience.” They don’t judge you, it’s not like a competition who has had the worst life. They don’t judge you, all these people. And we’ve interviewed 50 plus, so there’s some commonality in this and I feel it’s fascinating. And obviously your podcast is called Real Leaders, but yeah, I sense some of what you do is similar, I think you’ve mentioned off-air, about trying to align people’s skills with their values, helping people before they get stuck.

Warwick F:

I mean, some of the language and thoughts you have, there’s some similarities, don’t you think in terms of what your heart is for the leaders you talk with?

Kevin E:

Yeah. Plenty. And I’m actually developing a new course right now called Impact RX, and the impact prescriptions for… I guess our dream customer is 28 to 36 year olds who are what we say are stuck in career paralysis. So the impact prescription is a cure for that paralysis and breaking down that impact in the six different things, intention, model, profitability, accountability, customers’ transformation, impact as a course, a lesson for people that really feel unstuck, but also Warwick.

Kevin E:

There’s so many crossovers, as we found out today. But another one I think is this, success versus significance. But for us it’s short-term versus long-term. If you’re someone who wants to have a significant life, you’re not thinking about the short term right here now, you’re thinking about the longterm. So for these impact organizations, they’re thinking seven generations down the line, will our kids be able to live in this planet?

Kevin E:

You know what I’m saying? When the price of oil increases and distribution costs go up, what’s that going to do for our economy? Let’s focus on local now. So there’s a lot of world problems that I’ve been exposed to through these interviews, poverty, no hunger to health and wellbeing, the SEGs, water shortage, again, the opioid crisis, mycelium decline with the roots of fungi. All of these different things.

Kevin E:

These leaders are taking a stance, they’ve found their purpose, they’ve aligned it with this intention, and they’re thinking in the long-term and ways to solve these problems. That’s why I find it so fascinating.

Warwick F:

What I find encouraging is, some folks talk about, well first part of my life, I’m going to be successful, then I’ll have enough money, maybe I’ll have enough money to start a nonprofit or join a few nonprofit boards. I think that I can do that in my 50s or so, but in the meantime, I’ll work my way up to be partner or whatever it is.

Warwick F:

And I don’t think it’s an either or, and I try not to be judgmental, but I have a different perspective. I think all of life should be significant from grade school or frankly your earliest memory on. You can have a life of significance in elementary school, you don’t have to wait until you’re 40, 50, 60, and you’ll have to make choices. It doesn’t mean to say that you leap off the partner track at your law firm or your business.

Warwick F:

But maybe just to pick law for an example, maybe you’re a lawyer, and maybe I’d like to get into environmental law or a nonprofit law. Well, maybe you might not make as much money as you would in corporate or tax. Maybe I used part of this example on your podcast, but… and it’s not a right or wrong decision, just be intentional. Maybe it’s part of what you’re… how does it align with your values? If you feel like, no, I honestly feel like I can make a big impact in the corporate area by meeting with some of these CEOs and having a discussion and meaningful discussions that impact others, you can make a case for that, but do it because you’re being intentional.

Warwick F:

And if you say, “Look, I’m going to make a lot less money being a non-profit pro bono lawyer for folks that can’t afford it,” so long as that’s your decision, that’s not a wrong decision, if that’s what you want to do, maybe your parents might not understand, maybe your friends might have a bit of doubt what you want to do. So-

Kevin E:

No Warwick, I want to hit on this point, I want to keep going on this point, because what I’ve found is, everyone says, “Well, do what you love, do what you love,” I don’t really like that quote as much, but I will say work no matter what you do does give you a purpose.

Warwick F:

Yeah.

Kevin E:

So when you think about where I was at that time, interviewing all these social entrepreneurs, hearing their stories of these crucible moments, like, “I was 40 years down the line and my kids and wife left me, because I was so focused on growth.” We shouldn’t be doing this. So you hear these stories and you think about that inception point about when people are actually going to start their work.

Kevin E:

And we have these career fairs where people come in, they flash all these shiny objects at you, come work for my company, we’ve got beer on Friday or come work for my company, we’ve got this cool office. It’s not the way to go at all. So I think we’ve got a big problem here on our hands and I’m glad that we’re talking about today.

Warwick F:

I’m glad that with your new course and other things that, that’s on your heart, because as we’ve said before, you don’t want to be on the death bed going, “Boy, I blew it, my kids don’t know me, that I’ve had all these issues in their life.” And, you don’t get that life back. Yeah, I mean, I’ve said a lot of things I’ve done wrong, but because I grew up in such a large wealthy family in media business and was around ambassadors, prime ministers, even folks from Hollywood, my mother was incredible at throwing parties, even Hollywood folks would come out and say, “Boy, Lady Mary Fairfax throws parties on a level that we’re not used to, even in Hollywood.”

Warwick F:

So, she had not so much because of the money, but she had a sense of style, and she was actually on the top 10 best dressed women in the world list way back in the day. So, she was quite something. So I got to meet all these folks and I just saw… lot of them just had empty lives and their kids, and I never wanted to be that person, so I was fortunate I could spend time with my kids who are now all in their 20s.

Warwick F:

And what’s interesting and something for everybody to think about on birthdays or what have you, we write cards, we say what we most value about the person whose birthday is, it’s just a tradition we’ve done for many years. And my boys who are the more athletic ones in my family, every single time, they’ll say, “Well, dad, you’re always there at our soccer game at tennis game, you were there. For many, many years, they’ve said that, I can’t tell you how much that means to me.

Warwick F:

So all that’s to say, I mean my whole brand, if you will is about all the screw ups and the stupid decisions I’ve made, so if anybody wants to know all the dumb things I have done, go to crucibleleadership.com and you’ll hear all the bad, stupid idiotic stuff.

Gary S:

Hey you’re doing my job telling people to go to crucibleleadership.com.

Warwick F:

You don’t want to be that young guy, that young woman with the divorce, with the kids that hate you because you were never there. Oh you’re doing well. But, I don’t know, to me this is a judgemental moment coming up on. If you’re going to get married and have a family, honor that. If you don’t want to spend time with your kids and wife or husband, then don’t get married, don’t have kids. But if you make that social contract, it’s all as to say, as you get the idea, is life’s about choices, is having that whole life where you feel good about what you do, you’re not abandoning.

Warwick F:

I mean, some people even abandon their families for the so-called good cause. I personally don’t believe in that philosophy myself. I think you can do both, you can be successful and significant, you can work on a good cause and have a decent family. So anyway, I guess that’s a bit of a discussion, but does that make sense? I guess, I focus, especially on young people, getting these points, don’t go for the shiny object even if the shiny object is couched in some socially, good goal, is great, but you don’t have to sacrifice your whole, you can do both, you can do good and have a good family.

Kevin E:

Well, guess who’s a big factor in that job decision, as a college student, “Hey mom, dad, I just got this job offer today, what do you think?” Parents are a big influence. And so all the parents listen to this right now, out there. What I went through was difficult, and Gary, this is actually what we talked about before the show, and this was… I had this career with Real Leaders and I took this pay cut to go work for them.

Kevin E:

I got offered a few other different jobs in Chicago, again, the shiny objects, high paying salaries. And I took this job because I knew when I was working at an insurance company the year before, big insurance company, that I’d go home after that work day and focus on Real Leaders on those interviews. And I knew that this is probably what I wanted to do for a long time. And a lot of people don’t have that.

Kevin E:

And so, when I joined and Warwick, I think we’re actually, we’re more similar than you think. When I joined my mother and stepfather’s company, my father did not respect it. And so I was back home in college or from college after I graduated living with him, trying to tell him about the excitement, what I’m telling you guys, and I was just over the head. And here’s a guy that was at my football games every time, was my biggest supporter growing up. And for the first time in my life, when something that I really liked and really wanted to do, there’s zero support, no questions, nothing. And that was very difficult. that was probably my crucible moment.

Kevin E:

Taking a step back and going, “All right, got to make a decision here, got to do what I love or succumb to this pressure with my father and potentially damage the relationships.”

Gary S:

And not pursue the purpose that you felt you were being called to. I mean, you felt your soul come alive as you were doing those interviews.

Kevin E:

Yeah, definitely. And since then, it’s actually pushed me to go harder and harder and further and further. And since then now, he’s come on board, and it’s just in the best thing, and he’s my guy, I go to now to have those conversations that I can’t have with my mother and my stepdad because they are my business partners. So it created this interesting dynamic where we’re now closer over here on this forefront, and I’m closer with my mother and stepfather on this side, because we interact every day about the business. So, it’s this interesting parallel, but it took a lot of time in love and nurturing and it’s still a tough process. Let me tell you,

Warwick F:

I want to just focus on what you just said because listeners will be everywhere from 20s through 60s or beyond, the courage that… and I’m serious about this, the courage that Kevin had, it’s easy, I mean, you’re obviously somebody that’s bright, that is focused in any corporate career, you’re going to get it done, do incredibly well and you go up the ladder, because you’re focused, driven, those are the things that corporate CEOs and vice presidents, that’s what they want when they’re looking for folks to fill the pipeline of the best and brightest and high achievers or whatever else human resources is calling it.

Warwick F:

So you could have done that and been very successful. I have no doubt. But yet you chose to follow the calling in your heart. And to me, the road less traveled you picked from my perspective, the right choice. Why is it right? Because it was true to who you were. And any time you pick a calling or a profession that’s true to who your inner values, your inner calling, this still small voice, whatever you want to call it, deep within you, being true to yourself is always right. That’s always the right call.

Warwick F:

So as you can tell, other young people this, you can save them a lot of misery. And yeah, I mean an ideal world would have supportive parents. And in my case, it wasn’t so much that they were not supportive, is just, as I mentioned on your podcast, it’s growing up in the Royal family, for me not to go into the family business, it would have devastated my father, I would have crushed him, I mean, I couldn’t have done it because… and the thing is having a media or a newspaper in which you’re trying to uplift society, wasn’t like it’s such a bad mission, it just wasn’t my mission.

Warwick F:

But again, I’m not perfect with my own kids, I’m hyper-focused on not telling them what to do, I want them to live into their gifting and calling, but I don’t care what they do, I don’t care what they earn, so long as they’re happy. Now sometimes… I don’t know if I’ve mentioned on the podcast, maybe I have, it will come back to bite you. Faith is important to me and faith is important to all of my kids.

Warwick F:

Well, my daughter is the fearless entrepreneur, if you will, and I don’t quite know where she gets those genes, but I wouldn’t call myself fearless at all. But she said to us one time, “Well, I got this opportunities to work with Samaritan’s Purse, a fantastic faith-based aid organization. Anywhere there’s poverty or turmoil in the world, like in Iraq, when Mosul was being seized, and that whole deal, they were out there giving people food and water outside Mosul with the refugees leaving. I mean, that’s about as dangerous a place on the planet at the time, a number of years ago. So they really out there, I admire what they do.

Warwick F:

So she said, “Well, I’ve been given the opportunity to have an internship in the Congo,” it was a very dangerous place. And then a year or so later, fast forward, South Sudan, again, one of the most poorest nations in the world, and there’s been turmoil forever for a variety of reasons. Well, what are you going to say? No? And she was over 21, so no wouldn’t have helped. Where people will faced those… it’s not like we disagree with her mission, not that it matters, we agree with the mission, how can you say no? I mean, because you’d be a hypocrite.

Warwick F:

She’s doing what she believes in, and the icing on the cake is you happen to believe in it too. You just wish it wasn’t so dangerous. So I don’t know. I mean, it can come back to bite you when you try and live this out, but all in all, it is a good philosophy for parents, and I want them to really hear what Kevin has said is, support your kid’s calling, forget about the numbers and the career, and if they do what they love, it’ll sort itself out.

Warwick F:

So your parents need to hear that, and those in their 20s, they just need to have the courage to, I don’t mean to reject your parents, but just do what you feel you’re called to. Does that make sense?

Kevin E:

Yeah. And the young adults need to listen too, they need to know they cannot reject your parents’ opinions and thoughts.

Warwick F:

Right.

Kevin E:

That’s another thing it took a long time for me to learn and say, “They’re right about a lot of different things.”

Warwick F:

Well, that’s true. I mean, there are some folks, that anybody that’s older than 40 by definition must be wrong. Well, sometimes you can learn from other people’s mistakes, they’re mentoring, how do you do things? In my younger days… I mean, it’s easy when you’re young to get into this, I’m going to share my truth throw in the hand grenades and machine guns, and I’m speaking my truth.

Warwick F:

Well, you can speak your truth, but try and do it a little bit more diplomatically first, you don’t only have to go in there all guns blazing. No. That’s typically a mistake early on that you learn later on. But-

Gary S:

I’m going to show that I listened to my parents when I was younger, that if I had something to say that I thought was relevant to a conversation, to say it, and that is, I believe that the sound we heard was the captain turning on and fastening seatbelt sign, it’s about time to land the plane. Not quite yet. We have a couple more things we need to do. The first thing, Kevin, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let our listeners know how they can find out more about the Real Leaders podcast, about Real Leaders, about you.

Kevin E:

Yeah. Appreciate Gary. Yeah. Real Leader podcast, it’s on every listening platform, Apple, Spotify, YouTube. Just search Real Leaders podcasts, and you’ll find it, it’s a red logo, it’s Real Leader with Kevin Edwards. You can also find more information at real-leaders.com. It’s real-leaders.com. Also, if any of you listening out there, are impact organizations right now, we’ve got an impact awards going on right now, we do a great job of again, bringing those companies that are in the dark into the spotlight, through our publication, through all of our media resources and many of the CEOs come on the show as well.

Kevin E:

So that’s another outlet. And then of course, the course is launching here fully available for everybody online in June.

Gary S:

Awesome. I’ve got one more question and then I’m going to go back to Warwick. But you said something Kevin, in the form that we had you fill out that, and the question is one that we ask everybody, what in your professional estimation are the key principles and tangible action steps that can help people in the midst of a crucible move beyond it. And this is your response, and I’d love you to unpack it a little bit, because I think to Warwick’s point, we try to offer hope to people here. And I think what you say here offers a lot of-

Kevin E:

Yeah, please remind me what I said.

Gary S:

You say, “Understand who you are, where you want to go.” And I love this line, “And whatever gets in the way becomes the way.” Unpack that a little bit for folks.

Kevin E:

Right. Yes. The obstacle is the way. So if things are roadblocks in your life, let’s take for instance a relationship that you need to patch up, give that person a call. If your room is messy, clean it up. If there’s things that you are not getting done for your organization, get it done, stay disciplined, and you’re going to find that life is going to be a lot easier for you.

Kevin E:

So, I think anything that comes in the way we recognize that, and a lot of the times we think of it as a bad thing when reality it’s exactly what we have to do. So, you understand who you are and then the obstacle is the way. Absolutely.

Warwick F:

Wow. I mean, that is so profound. That’s very Crucible Leadership like, that the-

Gary S:

It’s also very stoicism-like, are you a big fan of The Stoics because I’ve… yeah.

Kevin E:

Yeah. It’s Marcus Aurelius, yeah.

Warwick F:

Yeah. We had somebody on the podcast actually, was it Joe Badaracco and there was Step Back… was it in that book? I think he mentioned that. He was also in the movie Gladiator, at least his character was. Marcus-

Gary S:

Not Joseph Badaracco, but-

Warwick F:

No, Marcus Aurelius the emperor of Rome.

Gary S:

Right. Yeah.

Warwick F:

Yeah. So-

Kevin E:

Here’s the caveat of that, is the part we don’t talk about, is the part you have to eliminate. What are those toxic relationships in your life? What are those things that are taking away time from you? Netflix, HBO, alcohol, drugs, staying inside. Those are the difficult things, and those are the obstacles. We’ve got to avoid those and eliminate those from our lives and eliminate everything that isn’t in our intention, that isn’t going to get to where we’re going. And again, we’re all human, we’re all flawed, it’s not going to be perfect, but just realizing those things when they happen, I think is half the battle.

Warwick F:

Wow. That’s very profound. What gets in the way becomes the way. That’s what we say on Crucible Leadership that sometimes crucible experiences they can be clarifying, maybe it’s, I should never do this again, or coming out of your pain, can be a purpose, like the Navy seal, I mentioned he was paralyzed and now has a clinic in San Diego. I mean, that’s really the core of Crucible Leadership.

Warwick F:

I guess maybe one last question is, if you interviewed a whole stack of people on Real Leaders, what would you say is the biggest lesson that you’ve learnt from interviewing all this people?

Kevin E:

Biggest lesson learned. I think is the one I shared earlier, is that you never know who’s going to show up on the opposite side. All of our guests have had amazing lessons that they’ve shared along the show, and there’s always something you can take away from every single interview. But I think really just for me personally, is just, you can do all the research you want, you can do all the preparation you want, but you really don’t know who is going to show up on the opposite side. So I hope today’s interview was good for you guys and being the guest this time around.

Warwick F:

No, absolutely. It was fantastic.

Kevin E:

I had a great time, I really enjoyed it.

Warwick F:

Yeah.

Gary S:

And I’ve been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word has been spoken on a subject. And that was it. The plane is indeed on the tarmac, on the runway on whatever it is they land. I get this wrong all the time, because I’m just not an aviation guy. But, before we go, I usually do some takeaways and I wrote three down. And then the more we talked, I’m like, well, we emphasize on this one a lot. So I’m going to stick to one takeaway for you today, listener from our conversation today, and that is something Kevin said and something Kevin’s lived, we call it a Crucible Leadership soul work, but it’s finding out what your unique gifts and passions are.

Gary S:

Kevin arrived at what he calls his north star, and what Warwick called when he was talking about it as his calling, by doing that soul work, asking others what made him unique, taking a hard look at his skills and vision, and it led him to his life’s purpose. Having meaningful conversations that change lives. Ask yourself with input from others what’s yours? What’s your purpose? And then get after it, because that is in Crucible Leadership language, your life of significance.

Gary S:

Thank you listener for spending time with us today. If you enjoyed this conversation with Kevin Edwards, we would ask you to subscribe to the podcast for sure, but share it with your friends, post it on social media, let people know about it because the more people who know about it, and Kevin is a great example of this. He drove all over the country, interviewed social entrepreneurs, sleeping on holey air mattresses, and now he’s got a podcast with a large platform where he is making a difference. So as you share it with people, it helps us get more people exposed to the content here. And if you like the content here, hopefully you’ll want to see that happen.

Gary S:

So until the next time we’re together, we ask you to remember this, the crucibles in your life are real, they’re painful, they hurt, they can knock you off your feet, but they are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles, the beginning of a new chapter in your story, and that new chapter can be the best chapter in your story, because where it’s going to lead to when the last period is put on the last page, is what we call a life of significance.

John Sikkema had it all. Except peace. Having carved out successful careers in insurance sales and finance, he felt in his 40’s that his life was careening out of control. Soon his car was, too. It was the combination of the accident he was surprised he survived, and the damage his obsession with making money was doing to his marriage and his faith, that led him to something better than the bottom line. When he heard a message at church about pursuing a greater purpose, one that involved serving others, he began a journey to the kind of joy money absolutely cannot buy. Today, as chairman of Halftime Australia, an executive coaching and mentoring organization, he helps other business leaders build lives of significance in the next act of their careers.

To learn more about John Sikkema and Halftime Australia, visit www.halftime.org.au. The organization also has a U.S. branch: www.halftime.org

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Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond The Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

John S:
I’d become a workaholic at that point and was working 80 hours a week and I had all the trappings of success. I built a beautiful architect home overlooking a beach and a golf course out of convict bricks. I had a beach house at Orford an hour from Hobart on the beach. I had the BM and I had four kids at private school and I was running and jogging every couple of days. Life looked pretty cool on the outside. I’m a CEO, the largest shareholder. I’m churchgoing. I looked really good, but cracks started appearing and the wheels started falling off.

Gary S:
It would turn out that it wasn’t just John Sikkema’s life that was careening out of control. Soon his car was too, and it was the combination of the accident he was surprised he survived and the distance his obsession with making money put in his marriage and his faith that led to his putting the wheels back on in a meaningful way. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. In this conversation with Warwick, John talks in detail about how chasing the wrong things brought him material wealth, but also brought him low. Then a message he heard at church about pursuing a greater purpose, one that involves serving others, led him to find joy that money absolutely could not buy. Today, as chairman of Halftime Australia, an executive coaching organization, he helps other business leaders build lives of significance in the next act of their careers.

Warwick F:

Well, John, thank you so much for being here. I’ve enjoyed getting to know you and loved reading your book. I mean, it’s just so… it’s really inspiring and so much of what we talk about in Crucible Leadership and you really model this. You’ve lived this. Tell us a bit about the backstory. I know you were born in Holland and came to Australia and in Tasmania and life was not exactly easy when you first came out. There was some adjustments. Tell us a bit about just growing up in Tasmania and just that transition as a five-year old boy to Tasmania.

John S:

It was quite a transition. One of the things I remember was it age five going to school and my mum liked making homemade clothes and not only couldn’t I speak the language, but I had clothes that looked different than all the other children. I can remember when I look back it now, I was quite a shy boy growing up when I look back on it. But certain things I was prepared to speak up against and I said to my mum when I came home from school, “Mum, I’m not wearing homemade clothes anymore. You’re going to have to buy me the same clothes as everybody else. Another thing is, I don’t want you to speak Dutch at home anymore. I want you to speak English because otherwise we’ll never learn the language here.” First five years we were here, my mum cried almost every day. My dad had spent five years in America during the war. He was in the merchant Navy and his vessel was blown up and he was some of the few that escaped in a lifeboat and was picked up by a American destroyer called Rodney and ended up in South Africa. Then they went to America and he stayed there for the whole war. When he came back to Holland, his mum had died while he was away.

John S:

But one of the funny things that I remember is my brother. I’ve got two brothers. I’ve got a younger brother and a younger sister. My younger brother is called Franklin Rodney and my sister is called Eleanor. It was the Roosevelt’s that were in power at this time and the boat that picked my dad up was a destroyer called Rodney. I’ve got a bit of a connection with you Gary that it made me feel a little bit remote and my dad wanted to migrate to America after the war. The problem was my mum didn’t want to go. She turned on the waterworks and my dad had to tear up the immigration papers to America because he loved the US. Mum had some relatives in Australia, so he wanted to get out of war-torn Europe after the war, so we ended up… He represented some papers to my mother to come to Australia and my mum finally said, “This guy is never going to give up.” She said, yes, but we ended up in Tasmania on a dirt road in a place called Blackmans Bay, which today is not politically correct apparently.

John S:

Anyway, the funny thing was, it wasn’t really funny, my mum, she came from the prosperous part of Holland in a place called Groningen and when they were… she would go down the street to buy meat, she would go into the butcher and they’d be flies around the butchery shop and the meat was wrapped in newspaper. My mum would be tearing her hair out and saying, “What has happened? Why have I done this? Why have I been taken to this remote island called Tasmania?” There’s some of my early memories, but the other memory I had was because my parents didn’t have a lot of money, I started my own business probably at about 10 years of age doing paper rounds. I do joke a little bit tongue in cheek, at age 14 I was financially independent because I was doing a paper round every morning. I was up at sort of quarter to 6:00, 5:30 and on the Saturday night they had a Melbourne Herald delivered and the Saturday Evening Mercury in Tasmania. I’d do that on Saturday night and sell in pubs and round the street.

John S:

Then there was a golf course across the road that I would go. I used to caddy for four hours back then for 60 cents. I soon realized that if I spent four hours looking for golf balls, I could earn $2. I retired from caddying at 14 and became a illegal professional golf ball finder and the… because it was illegal so I had to run around and I was pretty nimble and fast. There was a guy there that used to look out for people like me, but I never got caught. But the thing too is I found that I could sell them for $2 to the pro, but I also found that if I cut out the middleman, the pro, and hid under a bridge by a river where people hit the ball in, I could sell them for $3 and I got a 50% pay increase so I cut out the middle man. That was my survival instinct as a boy growing up in Tasmania. Anyway, that’s just a bit of a backstory.

Warwick F:

That is a fascinating story. I’m just curious, do you ever ask your dad how come my siblings got American political names, the name of a ship? What about John? Do you ever say, what about me? What was the deal with it?

John S:

The interesting thing too, I forgot to tell that little bit, my name’s not John. My name is Jan. Because I don’t know what your parents were called Warwick, but three generations it was Jan. My grandfather was Jan. My dad was Jan. I was Jan. That was the other problem. When I went to school in Australia and I know you get teased a bit in America with Warwick name, as opposed to Warwick. I got teased, because in Australia, a girl’s name is J-A-N.

Warwick F:

Jan.

John S:

Yes. I can remember going to the Royal Hobart Hospital and I had to have an operation on my arm and the nurse would call out at the top of her voice. This was a public ward and she would yell out at the top of the voice Jan Sikkema and it sounded, Jan Sikkema and it sounded like a girl. Everyone would be looking around for a female and I would sheepishly have to get up and say, “That’s me.” I made an executive decision also in grade one to change my name from Jan to John Sikkema. I’m actually not really John Sikkema. I’m actually Jan Sikkema, but in this day and age I would probably get away with it and get sympathy. But in those days they didn’t have foreigners in Tasmania. I was one of the few there so it was very awkward. I had to stand up for myself at a very early age and make-

Warwick F:

Oh my God.

John S:

… some decisions. Anyway.

Warwick F:

Boy, that’s amazing. Obviously coming out from Holland life wasn’t easy. You write in your book that where you lived wasn’t this tremendous house on the cliff or which you ended up years later. It was pretty tough. But right from the beginning you just had this hunger to make something of yourself, to succeed and I know you did a number of different jobs, traveled around Australia. But you ended up landing with insurance and you tried a couple of things and work for, what was the insurance company, National-

John S:

National Mutual, which eventually-

Warwick F:

… National-

John S:

… became ING.

Warwick F:

Right. Then you met your wife, Sue, just before that, but she’s from Tasmania too, but you went over there. Talk about some of those early days, recently married, working in insurance. That was sort of the first step on the road to your career in a sense.

John S:

Well, one of the things I found in Australia to get accepted was to play sport as a Dutch person.

Warwick F:

Right.

John S:

I took up Aussie rules, which we call real football. For your American audience we play on a ground that is twice as big with twice as many players and we have to run twice as long, so don’t feel bad about this. We don’t wear pads at all Gary.

Gary S:

And that makes us half as good then.

John S:

Look-

Warwick F:

I mean-

John S:

… I wouldn’t draw that inference, but you might. But the interesting thing was I did year 11 here, which you do before you go to university. My dad said, “John, if you go to university, you need to give up sport.” Now, that was waving a red rag to a bull, and I’m a bit of an ADD person anyway. It was a pretty easy decision not to go to university so I went into banking and finance and I always had an interest in that. I realized at age 23 that I was going really well in my career in the business world, but I had to go and study accountancy eight years part-time. I did the maths on that and I thought if I went into selling, I might be able to get ahead. I realized, so I quit that and went into a selling role and I doubled my income by learning to cold call in Melbourne, selling insurance out of the phone book, just making cold calls.

Warwick F:

Talk about how you didn’t start at the front of the phone book. You had a different strategy, which I thought was quite creative.

John S:

Well, one of the things I’ve learned is try and work where you don’t have competition. Why would you go where there’s a lot of competition? I thought, I think I’ll go to the Ws in the phone book. I won’t start at the very back, but I’ll go close to the back. I’ll go to the Ws and which would be the phone book pages people would dislike the most, would probably be the Williams’s because there was thousands of them. I went to the W in the phone book and I ended up selling quite a few policies because… and nearly 90% of my clients were in the Ws. I had a filing cabinet for the files and they were nearly all in the Ws. I was shocked when the sales manager read out the sales results and there were a lot of big talkers in this team of 20 salespeople and when he read out the sales results after six months, I was the number two salesperson.

John S:

What really quite surprised me, I just had a plan of working where I didn’t have competition, which I remember I used to work with young new policeman and nurses working in the mental hospitals where a lot of the other financial advisors or insurance salesman didn’t go. But I found after a while, I got bored with that. But I did become the top salesman out of 300 salesmen in Victoria, principally by cold calling and having good working habits and maybe being prepared to do what other people weren’t prepared to do and just have a good habit, a good plan and stick at it. I found I got a bit bored with that and after a while I found I really loved business. I could help people who were in partnerships. I used to call them accountants who are partnership kings. They often themselves were in the company in the family trust, but they left all their small business people in a partnership.

John S:

I would find people paying 20,000 a year tax back then and I could say, “I can show you how you only pay 10,000 tax a year instead of 20 by putting you into a company in a family trust and you can put $10,000 into super.” In those days there was a company called Occidental Life who had a great super policy with a 5% admin fee and they paid 65% of premium as a commission and paid a renewal fee.

Warwick F:

Just for US listeners, superannuation is the equivalent of pension funds here, that kind of thing, right?

John S:

Yep.

Warwick F:

Keep going..

John S:

I was able to double my income again. I set up 35 companies and family trusts in one year because my average policy size went from $500 a year or 1,000, this is a long time ago, to about 5,000 or $6,000 a year.

Warwick F:

You were doing really well, but at some point you decided, I don’t want to work for somebody else. I want to work for myself. I mean, a lot of people wouldn’t do that because I mean, how many small businesses survive? I mean, the odds are probably not high, but yet you’ve never been one to shy away from a challenge. You said, “This is fine, but I want to go out on my own.” Talk about that decision. It was a big decision at that time I’m sure.

John S:

Well, already at age 14, like I’d said before, I tend to think I was financially independent and self-employed running three… I was going fruit picking in the school holidays, paper around, golf course. I realized that probably I’d be better to go and work for myself because when I actually worked in a bank with my first job after school, they said to become a bank manager you have to wait till age 33. I was 17 and the maths on that wasn’t very attractive, 16 years before I got the top salary and I was quite a good worker. I thought this is too long. At 23 I left and went on full commission for National Mutual. At 26 I decided that I always wanted to help people. I was motivated by helping people, but getting paid for it.

John S:

At 26, I thought, well, why don’t I go become a broker so I can give people not just National Mutual policies, I can give them the best policies. My income dropped by 50% for one year while I did that. But I had the satisfaction that I was helping people, but also I was build… They paid a trial commission, which National Mutual didn’t. I was building an asset. I had this in my bones that build a business, build an asset, get a lower income, do a better deal for clients. That ticked all my values boxes and that’s when I… because my income had dropped, that’s why it was attractive to set up the companies in family trusts. I could give them the best superannuation policy, if it was Occidental or Mercantile Mutual was another company that had very good policies.

John S:

The big companies like AMP National Mutual didn’t have as good a policy. By being a broker, I could sleep at night and know Warwick that I gave you the best deal that was available. I knew that I was also building a lifetime business potentially for myself. I enjoyed the freedom because got married young and we moved to Melbourne where we didn’t know anybody. But Sue’s family was in Tassie, my family was in Tassie and I grew up… Sue didn’t grow up in a Christian home and I did and I found after a while us gallivanting, we were living on the mainland, we enjoyed it. But we just lacked that sense of community and I wanted our children to grow up with grandparents and a sense of community. I went to a Christian school. I went to church regularly and that foundational… those values I found that I wanted my children to have.

John S:

I could see in the big cities that that’s a bit of a problem. I could just look ahead. I’ve always had the ability to look ahead and intuitively in my spirit I just thought, so I’ve walked away from the really high income I was earning in Melbourne and decided to move back to Tassie. Sue wasn’t really that happy about that. We had a beautiful 20 acre property. She loved horses and animals, but I felt that our family was going to be better off. I was prepared to pay the price and move back to Tassie and it was quite humbling because I was quite a successful person in Melbourne. In Tassie I had to go back to square one and go backwards and start from scratch. There isn’t the same talent pool in the smaller… It’s like a big country town.

John S:

The problem is I was then back selling smaller policies and doing less business and having to humble myself. But it’s the best decision I ever made because Sue got really involved in our local church because she didn’t grow up as a Christian. My Christian faith was always about here and she had… But once she became a Christian, her faith went to there and she became very evangelistic and wanted to share her faith and convert her family and all her friends. She got a lot of rejection and I must admit my theology, maybe I wasn’t such a good listener Warwick, but I used to hear messages like the rich young ruler or the narrow road and the eye of the needle, the love of money and I used to think, well, I love what money can do. It was a very fine line.

John S:

I thought if I ever get to heaven, I’ll probably just scrape in there. But Sue was only a Christian for a matter of a couple of years and she ran an outreach Sunday school and just had a heart for people who didn’t know Jesus. Then after a while she went through this… there was an American program called EE3, which was about cold calling on evangelism. Sue was very courageous when it came to horse riding and evangelism, but on everything else she was risk averse and she’s a detail person. Whereas I’m the one that was very gung ho and big picture, but when it came to sharing my faith, it was very private and I didn’t share it. This is what sort of set the scene for a lot of things that happened later in life that I look back on now and they make sense, but at the time I just thought, well, I don’t know. I’ve had some teaching on predestination and people will have the opportunity to go to church, if they do, or they don’t, I don’t know where my theology was at that time. But I was a fairly private in everything Warwick.

John S:

It wasn’t like I was… I’m really an introvert. I’m an extrovert when it comes to achieving what I feel I want. If there’s a goal I want to achieve, I’ll role play and do what it takes. But by nature, I’m quite a loner and I enjoy my own company.

Warwick F:

No, I get it. I know the turning point in your life was a obviously car accident and then a moment in church with this bikey guy, John Smith. Before we get there because it’s fascinating beats to the story, you founded this company Garrisons. Now, before that sort of car crash thing, that was already growing, wasn’t it, Garrisons?

John S:

Yeah.

Warwick F:

I mean, you were building up a business. Talk about sort of the pre almost car crash. Where were you in business? I mean, you were really building something impressive.

John S:

Well, what happened when I moved back to Tassie as a independent broker on being able to do insurance and super, I wanted to help people more and give them access to property investment and share investments. When the financial planning industry was born in Australia, I again moved from being the broker into financial planning. Most of the information was coming out of the US. There was a guy in Sydney called Robert Morrison, who was the pioneer of the financial planning industry in Australia. I decided that I would move out of insurance and super broking and go into financial planning. Again, my income halved in the first couple of years, because you didn’t get paid the big commissions that you got on selling insurance and super. I decided also, because I hadn’t bothered to go and do the accountancy study, to do financial planning you really needed to be quite good technically.

John S:

One of the things I’ve always done is improvise, so I thought, well, how do I move into this industry without me going to university and studying accountancy? I decided to find an accountant. I advertised to find an accountant who could work alongside me to give my business the technical credibility, and I would become the front end and the people person to get the new clients, but this person would do all the technical report writing and the compliance and whatever. This worked really quite well. But then after a while, I found too that I’m too fast paced to do financial planning because you’re dealing with older people and they’ve got money on term deposit and they sort of scratch their head and they think, “Oh, well, I’m not sure of the market’s right now so I’ll flip it over again for another six months.”

John S:

I was used to selling insurance where literally I could go into a lounge room and we used to talk about backing the hearse scene, so I could sit down with you and your wife, Warwick and sort of say, well, to your wife, “Well, what happens if Warwick didn’t come home from work tomorrow? What would happen to you?” I’d ask that question. You could pretty well walk out-

Warwick F:

Right.

John S:

… with a sale and get paid. Financial planning, I might come and see you and you might have money to invest, but there’s no urgency. I thought this is-

Warwick F:

Right.

John S:

… driving me crazy. I thought, “I think I’m better off to probably get other people to do the financial planning and I’ll get the new clients in.” I decided to start my own financial planning and employ financial planners, but because I wasn’t big enough and didn’t have capital, I couldn’t grow it. A guy across town whose parents owned a whole lot of supermarkets, he got his own license. Back in those days you could get a license from the regulator like buying a loaf of bread. He had a license and it was interesting. He asked me to join him, plus he had another guy who was a property trust guy, and the other guy got 25% equity. I got 25 transferring my clients and this guy owned 50. I went in there as the third person, but I found very quickly that I was the one that was building the business. I’d like growing things, so I started an office in Launceston and Burnie. I started growing the business and I found we didn’t share the same values.

John S:

I had a long-term view about client relationships and I was prepared to lose money in the short term to build a long-term business. The guy who owned the shares, the 50%, well, he was used to looking at the till each month and seeing if we made a profit or a loss, and he wanted to make decisions on that basis. I found we weren’t on the same… we didn’t have the same vision for the business and the other guy was just wanting to do property trusts. I orchestrated quite a painful experience in buying, first of all, out the 50% shareholder and we had to go into debt to do that on the process of… and then the other guy, I bought them both out and I had a second mortgage on my house, I had credit card debt. But I then was able to get people to join me who shared my values.

John S:

That’s when the business took off. But to finance it, I sold 49% of the business to Mercantile Mutual to get rid of some personal debt and corporate debt and so we could grow the business and that’s what happened. We then saw the business take off. But one of the problems we had was I’d become a workaholic at that point and was working 80 hours a week. I had all the trappings of success. I built a beautiful architect home overlooking a beach in the golf course out of convict bricks. I had a beach house at Orford an hour from Hobart on the beach. I had the BM and I had four kids at private school and I was running and jogging every couple of days. Life looked pretty cool on the outside. I’m a CEO, the largest shareholder, four kids all at private school. I’m churchgoing. I looked really good, but cracks started appearing. The wheels started falling off. This is where I had a massive wake up call because I used to go to Launceston, which was a couple of hours drive every Friday.

Warwick F:

Just so that US audiences understand, Tasmania is not that big a place. You’ve got Hobart in the Southeast, Launceston in the north. That’s sort of like one end of the state to the other is a couple hours or something like that.

John S:

It’s like a dream. You picture British Columbia or something. It’s like that sort of… I used to go there every Friday. I’d be up at, leave home at 6:00 and I would be there by 8:30. I don’t know. If you do the same drive continually, you go into a bit of a trance and your mind wanders and you think about everything else. Your car is almost in auto drive. It’s like the cars that we’re making now, driverless car. You basically are driving it, but you’re… You’d sometimes think, “I don’t remember driving through this town because you just… One Friday when I drove up there, from one week to the next they’d actually moved the road, but I didn’t know. I came around and saw the normal road signs and drove around the corner the same as I would normally and I’m heading straight for a truck and my life flashed in front of me and I thought, “My life’s over, I’m dead.”

John S:

I shut my eyes. I swung the steering wheel and bang, I hit the side of the truck and I’m up the road 50 meters and I’m thinking, “How come I’m not dead? I must have some guardian angels looking after me because I thought my life was over.” I couldn’t believe that I hadn’t died. I got out and looked at the car and there was scratches all along the side, but it could still limp along. I remember thinking, “This is symptomatic of my life. My life’s out of control. I’m just so obsessed with success and building this business.” I thought I realized I have to change and it made me really reflect on what is my purpose in life and what am I doing? It made me dig deep.

John S:

Not only did I have that car crash, but it was around that time that I mean, I’d also having bad migraine headaches. I used to come home two nights a week and literally take some heavy medication and go to bed with a wet face washer and some ice blocks and wouldn’t surface till the morning in the dark room, couldn’t talk, couldn’t eat with the family, sometimes physically ill. I’d also created quite a bit of debt to own the most shares in the company, buying out these other shareholders, having a beautiful home and all the trappings of success. I had financial health. Then on top of that, my wife said to me one day, “John, you’re not the fun guy I married, you’re a workaholic and we get the leftovers and when you are home, you’re often lying on the couch or in bed with migraines. I can’t cope with this. I didn’t sign up for this. Unless you change, I want out.”

John S:

I was shocked by that because in my mind I was working hard for my family. Probably worse than the health or the debt or the relational was I actually thought I don’t like who I’ve become. I don’t like who I am. Look what’s happened to me. It was a really a soul searching period that I started thinking, how did I get to this? This is not what I set out to do. It was quite a traumatic… I started really searching and wondering. I mean, I must admit I was a bit of a five minutes a day Bible reader and a five minute a day prayer person. I was very efficient. I was able to work a lot of the time and problem is with the family too, I’d take them on a family holiday each year, but it was like catching up, but short changing them as well. It was really difficult.

John S:

Then one day I heard a talk that changed my life, because we used to go to church regularly, but I always felt a bit of a misfit in church. I wasn’t a muso, I wasn’t a Sunday school teacher. I wasn’t the youth leader, the extrovert. But anyway, I believed in God and I had quite strong faith. But this day I went to church and there was a bikey, Harley-Davidson bikey who set up God Squad, not only in Australia, but overseas as well, called John Smith.

John S:

He got up in the pulpit and often you snooze through a few sermons here and there and he really caught my attention because he said, “If I could find 100 business men to give me a million dollars each week, It could change this nation. That was when we had the Lionel Murphy divorce laws going through where you could have no fault divorce and there was the whole social fabric of what we’d grown up with on the value of marriage was being challenged. He was really vocal about that and when he said that my heart lept. I thought, “That’s me. I’m one of the 100.” I temporarily forgot about the desperately unhappy wife. I forgot about all my debt that I’d accumulated to own all these things. I forgot about my migraines.

John S:

You know what happened, I remembered that when I was 14 and I used to look for golf balls, do my paper round between 6:00 and 7:00, 7:30 I was on the golf course. I remember being by a swamp on the ninth hole and I used to have regular spots so I could find these 20 golf balls in four hours. I remember having a conversation in my head that I’d never had before in my life saying, “Why am I so blessed? Why am I literally able to buy anything because I’ve always got money? Why do I live idyllically by the beach? Why have I got great parents? Why did I had been able to go to a Christian school? It’s not fair. Look at all the people in the world that I read about and see that haven’t got what I’ve got. I know what I’m going to do.” When I turn age 50, I’m going to spend the rest of my life helping others. What I’m going to do between now then is make as much money as I can. Obviously I’ll get married, have children, have a mortgage pay off, but that’s what I’m going to do.”

John S:

I had this conversation in my head and actually, when I thought about it, I thought, “How come I’m having this conversation in my head?” I went to a very conservative church. I knew about God and Jesus. I didn’t really understand the Holy Spirit. I had a simple faith and I probably didn’t listen in church enough Warwick. I thought, “If I tell anybody what I’ve just experienced, they’d think I’m going mad.” You know what I did, I didn’t tell one person that I had that conversation in my head because I thought if I told anyone, they would say, “You’ve got to go and see a psychologist. John…”

Warwick F:

This conversation when you were 14, you mean? When you were-

John S:

Yeah.

Warwick F:

Wow.

John S:

Now when you move the clock back, 26 years later I’m 40 and I’m sitting in the church, that conversation, which I hadn’t thought about since 14 came back to me when he said, “Now I understand the Holy Spirit, I understand how God works.” I realized that God had been put in my spirit. I’d had a holy spirit time here, a divine moment at 14. Then at 40 a dream had been reignited by that John Smith moment that had been, I feel God had used him to deposit that in my spirit to rekindle a dream and a purpose that God had for my life. You wouldn’t believe it if probably 10 minutes later in that same church service I heard virtually in an audible voice saying, “John, I did not create you for you to be successful. I created you to help others succeed and if you will do that, you will be truly successful.” Literally sitting in church there I think, “You’ve got it all back to front. You idiot.”

John S:

And the lights came on. I thought, “Ah, I’ve been trying so hard so I could be really really successful so one day I can be generous. I need to be generous along the way and I can help people now.” Then I got what I knew was a quickening. I got a holy spirit download of all the things I had to change in my life. I’ve got it and I won’t go through them now Warwick, they’re in my book, chapter six. But the first one was stop trying to change my wife to suit my success and help her be who God created her to be, make myself available in the community and don’t use headaches or debt or business as an excuse not to help the school that my children are going to or the church.

John S:

I’d been asked to go on the school board of my children’s Christian school. I’d been asked to become an elder at the church. I had said no to both of those. Now, I’m saying stop being logical and do. If God calls you to do that, you say yes. One of the other things I wrote down was stop reading the Bible as a historical book of 2000 years ago written and read it as God’s business plan to man. I understood business plans really well. They were powerful. My life was run by a business plan with vision, mission, values, action plans, KPIs and I loved it. I used that, the whole business. I thought, “Well, that’s really, God actually wrote one not just for one person, He wrote that for everybody on the planet. If they would bother to read it as a plan on how to live your life, manage your finances. You go to Ecclesiastes, about one, two, three, diversify your investments, send them overseas. You don’t know where your crop… take risks. You look at the Bible and about marriage, everything in there about how to do business, marriage, make God your first love and give your first fruits, don’t give me the leftovers and test me and your barns will overflow. All these things I discovered.

John S:

After those, I wrote down these 13 things and start loving myself. I realized I didn’t love myself. I’d allowed Satan to snatch, steal, destroy and I basically had… I was driven too much by fear. I’d stopped taking risks. I had to go back and I’d like C.S. Lewis about all these little… The devil is so cunning sending out all these little devils. I didn’t realize the spiritual battle that I was in at work, or when I was away, so tended to be the holy huddle Bible study church, I felt. But six days a week, you’re out there in the jungle on your own and I’ve realized that we need to recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit. We need to be in the word of God every day. We need to be mixing with others. That happened. But then you had an altar call, this bikey and I’m in a church of 300 people and I’m a well-known person. I’m a CEO of a company. I thought, “I still got pride, no way am I going up to the front to say my life is a mess here.”

John S:

You know what I did, I quietly sneak out the back and raced home Warwick and went into my study, got a sheet of paper, shut the door and I wrote down… I thought before I forget this download, I’ve got to write them all down.

Warwick F:

I mean, that’s really… I just want to read a couple of things you have in your book because that’s… and obviously we’ll get here to what you’re doing now. But what that bikey said, it changed your life. I mean, what you write in your book, you said-

Gary S:

Can I jump in for a second?

Warwick F:

Please, go ahead.

Gary S:

On behalf of all the Americans and you guys can define, I think I know what it is-

Warwick F:

Sure.

Gary S:

… but what’s a bikey.

Warwick F:

Go ahead.

John S:

A Harley-Davidson is. I think they originate in the US.

Gary S:

Right.

John S:

If you ride that in Australia, you’re called a bikey.

Gary S:

Okay. We call them bikers here in the States.

Warwick F:

Yeah.

Gary S:

Got it.

Warwick F:

The leather jacket, there’s a certain look.

Gary S:

Right.

Warwick F:

Exactly. Well pointed out. One of the things this guy said, John Smith, he said, “Instead of disparaging wealth and making me feel guilty.” This is you, John, commenting. Instead of disparaging wealth and making me feel guilty because I had some money, he challenged people like me to use that affluence, not solely for our own comfort, but to help others. He explained that each of us had been uniquely wired and created for a purpose, for a greater purpose than just aiming to live a comfortable life. You say, “I was put on this earth to accomplish something for a higher purpose, yet I was living as if I was the only one that mattered.” Then you say this, “Here’s part of his message that really hit a raw nerve. If you want God to bless you, that will only happen when you put him first in your life.” You really, your whole life changed. You say it was a change or die moment. You wrote those 13 principles, one of which is stop chasing success and pursue purpose instead. I mean, that changed your whole life.

John S:

Oh, yeah. It was a defining moment. One of the things that in Australia there’s a whole movement called about life balance. I actually tried life balance and I don’t believe in life balance. I actually believe when you really define life balance, it’s basically saying I’m going to be selfish because to have a balanced life, you don’t want to do things that will unbalance it. But if you pursue… If you look at Paul in the Bible, did he have life balance? Because he was shipwrecked, he was stoned, he was beaten up, but he pursued his calling. I think we need to realize that to pursue our calling might come at a cost and it might not give us life balance. I think Western Christianity has fallen for the same issue that the secular world… the secular world is life balance means you just have a nice life and everything is nice around you and you’re generous, but only to a point where it doesn’t cost you. You’re not going to cross the road and help the good Samaritan if it unbalances your life or means you can’t eat or if you haven’t got a home or you’re going to… I believe that life balance is something the devil would like us to do.

Warwick F:

What’s amazing about that is you work just as hard just in some areas in the business, but also in some non-profits in part Jossy Chacko and what you’re doing with Halftime Australia and your consulting purpose based business. You’re working all these hours, but yet your marriage and your relationship with your kids got better, because what you write is when you were there with them, you were present, you were alive, you were more alive than you’d ever been. I don’t know if it was… it wasn’t necessarily more work-life balance, but you were just more fully alive, more fully who God intended you to be and everything improved, right?

John S:

Yeah. Well, what happened was I got… after I wrote down those 13 things and put them in the drawer and shut, I didn’t tell Sue either, because I’d been a bit of a sweet nothing man. I’d make promises and not deliver. I thought it’s no use her telling me, after the service, after I put all that away, I said, “Great service. It really spoke to me.” I just gave her an overview, but I didn’t tell specifically, number one on the list is I’m going to… I just started role-playing and behaving differently. But God put me through a couple of tests then and a mate of mine who was on the school board, the school was losing a million a year and he said, “John, can you come and help the school and become the treasurer?”

John S:

The old me would have said, “No way.” Now, after my defining moment, I decided to put Jesus in the front seat of the car, rather than beside me or out in the back seat. I used to drive the car and make decisions and ask God to ratify them. I said I’ve got to get in the backseat. When I was asked to be on the school board, now I’m praying about it and saying, “God, if this is what you want me to do, that it’s actually what I’ll do.” I felt at peace. “Yes, this is what I want you…” I used to hate school. I love sports and I love business, but school was not a place I really enjoyed. God was taking me back and testing me. I went on the school board and they were losing a million a year in today’s dollars, but I realized they’d lost their vision and they had the wrong principal and the wrong bursar.

John S:

I used my business skills to bring in an external consultant who did personality profiling and assessment. I sat down with the bursar and said, “Mate, you’re so good at… you’re entrepreneurial. You should be in a business, not a bean counter. We need an ex bank manager or someone here looking after the finances of the school.” He then resigned, no redundancy and started a business and he’s still in it today, 25 years later. The principal, after going through that realized he was a primary school principal rather than looking after three or four campuses. He resigned as well and the school and never looked back. The thing I had to do is I realized that our fees were too low. We had top quartile education, bottom quartile fees.

John S:

We did analysis for all the schools in Australia and I went to an AGM and said, “We’ve got to lift the fees by 50% from January 1.” Because all the previous treasurers had been politically correct and prayerful, but didn’t have the guts to tell the truth. I said, “I could put up the fees by 15% every year for three or four years or do it one go in 50.” I only had to put them up by 40, but I realized by doing it 50, I could cream money from the Gary’s and the Warwick’s and give it to the poor and I set up a Robinhood fund and had a hundred thousand dollars in it and poor people could show me their tax return. I realized I could use my business skills in the community and I got great satisfaction from that.

John S:

Well, I did that for five years. Then the local church had a charismatic split, second one, 100 people left and went to another church and my mate, who was on the school board said, “John, can you come and help us find another pastor so we can sack the pastor.” I said, “Really?” And I said, “Well, you’ve got a job description?” “No.” “You’ve got a plan for the church.” “No.” I said, “Well, I’ll only find a pastor and you’ll have another split because he’ll bring…”Oh, can you come and help the elders and the deacons? Talk to them about…” Anyway, here I find myself with the pillars of the church here, the business guy, and they said, “Could you find a…” I said, “No, I’m not going to help you find a pastor.” It must’ve been the Holy Spirit, I said, “I’ll tell you what I can do. What about meeting two nights a week for three months, every Monday and Wednesday night, 7:30 to 9:30. We’ll go through scripture and we’ll work out why we exist, then we’ll develop a plan. Then we’ll go and hire a pastor to implement it.” “Oh yep. Okay.” “Either that or I don’t.” They agreed.

John S:

I didn’t know my Bible very well and I thought I’m with all these great teachers and pastors. I had a friend of mine who I knew was very versed in the word of God and was involved in planning a church, so I said, “What can I do with these people? How am I going to take them through scripture? It’s the blind leading…” He said, “John, read this Bible verse and ask these five questions and put them into small groups and then get them to report back and you just document it and end up with a plan.” It’s exactly what I did. I faked it. Someone in America who’s good at that, I faked it and he might have Dutch blood as well. I don’t know. But anyway, so I put a plan together after three months, called a congregational meeting one Sunday afternoon. We did a creche. We got that plan approved and I called one pastor and then two and three. The numbers were 300. They’d gone to about 180 when I got involved. They made me chairman of elders and we grew the church in a country town from two to 600 in five years. I realized that God was equipping me in business to be able to work back and add value in other areas.

Warwick F:

Link that with what you’re doing now, because these are almost like trial balloons, or I think you write about it somewhere about stepping stones. It’s like, “Boy, I can use my business skills to really help nonprofits and organizations whose missions I care about.” But from there you still had a successful business. I think you sold that. I think you mentioned at one point …

John S:

That’s the crazy bit Warwick that I cut my hours back from 80 to 50 and spent 10 hours more at home and 20 hours in the community. That resurrected my marriage relationship. Sue saw me involved in the church and the school. She loved that. Amazingly, because I was a controlling leader, I have to admit and I can do it better than anyone else. I was competitive and whatever. When I went from 80 hours to 50, I had to start empowering people because I had to spend 30 hours away from the business. Then I went to an empowering leadership style, God gave me revelation on some ideas and I started taking risks. The business, I set up a funds management company, which I’d never done before. I’d started franchising our offices and expanding to all of Australia rather than just being in Tas.

John S:

The business grew by 40% percent per annum over the next 10 years. I was bankrupt on paper at 40. At 49, two months into my 50th year, I got an offer from Challenger, the listed company and we sold out, which allowed me two months into my 50th year the dream that God had put on my heart at 14. I was able to then spend the rest of my life helping others. I went to part-time CEO and met a guy on the plane who was doing amazing work in North India who had a vision to plant 100,000 churches. I had got our denomination, which normally didn’t plant churches to set up an organization called Vision 100 to plant 100 churches in Tassie. We got that off the ground, but we had planted one church and I’m thinking I’m pretty good.

John S:

I’m on a plane to a Hawaii to a conference and I sit next to this guy and I say, “What are you doing?” He says, “I’m a church planter.” He’s 19 years younger. I said, “Well, how many churches you planted?” I’m a numbers person. He said, “200.” I went, “Ah.” We’d planned on and I was… God doing another number on me. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I didn’t believe what he was telling me. I thought, “Why is God doing all this in North India and not in Australia.” Anyway, I went with him on a three-week trip to North India and I slept here and he slept there. We spent three weeks together and I went all through North India where less than 1% of the population are Christian, the 60% are Hindu, 20% Muslim.

John S:

I was just blown away by everything he told me was true that God was doing an amazing work in North India and he asked me to come and chair his board. I moved back to Tassie. 10 years before that Sue was talking divorce and we had our forever house. I said, “Darling I think I need to help this guy do this 100,000 church planting.” And I said, “Maybe I can get a flat in Port Melbourne and keep our house here.” She said, “No no, that won’t be good for our marriage. Let’s sell our dream home. Let’s sell our waterfront holiday home. We’ll move to Melbourne, not to Port Melbourne though. We’ll move to acreage.” We sold up everything and moved to Melbourne near where Jossy lived. I spent half my time helping him with setting up the infrastructure to do these 100,000 churches and help in Asia and then help him globally set up and spend the other half of my time coaching and mentoring business people to find their purpose. That’s all-

Warwick F:

As well as Halftime Australia. I mean, so you’re still-

Gary S:

Let me jump in.

Warwick F:

Please, go ahead.

Gary S:

I just want to jump in. I love stories, John. You tell fabulous stories. I could listen to you tell stories more than I can watch Netflix. But one thing as I hear your stories, there’s a quote that you have in your book that I think summarizes every story you’ve just told and that’s a quote from Gandhi who said this, “The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in service to others.” How has that thread been woven through your life and the stories you’ve shared so far with our listeners?

John S:

I really liked the Paul quote that daily, you’ve got to take up your cross and follow him. I think it’s a matter of dying to self and really being open to what God’s plan. Once in my forties, I sat down and crafted a mission statement with the help of a coach and I got real clarity about what… If I’m 90 lying back on my death bed, what would I… I can’t change the script from nought till 40, but I can change the script from 40 to 80 or 90 or whatever it is. Really, to hear well done good faithful servant, before we were born, God created good works in advance for us to do in Ephesians 2:10. One of the revelations God gave me, in the new living translation it says we are God’s masterpiece.

John S:

The first problem we’ve got the devil convinces us that we are not God’s masterpiece, which means we can’t then really step into our calling and do what God planned before us to do. I find that so many Christians will sit in a church pew, but if you ask them, are you clear on your calling? Most people are not, even though they’ve been in the church university for 30 or 40 years, sadly. They’ve got a generic concept of what their calling is. Well, it’s be a good father, a good husband, a good Christian, keep the 10 commandments, tithe, go to church, love my neighbor and I serve in this here. But we’ve created a very comfortable Western Christianity which is very riskless and we can quote lots of Bible verses, but we won’t take steps of faith. My passion is really, my change was I flipped and I had to let control of my own life.

John S:

I realized when I was 23 when I gave my life to Jesus, that I only surrendered half my life. I said, “I’ll keep this half for myself, my business.” Because I’m pretty good. I’ve proven I can keep goals. I can do that better than most of my peers, so just bless me doing that Lord and I will use that for your purpose. But God showed me 20 years of me going that way, I got my life in a mess and I had to surrender 100% of my life at 40. When John Smith spoke and I had that defining moment, I had to let go of my business skills. I had to become childlike in my faith and I then every day when I have problems, I would journal and say, “God, thank you for…” I used to keep a scorecard every month of goals I keep. I crossed out the word goals and said blessings. If I was dead, the only… being alive, the only reason I was able to keep those goals is because God blessed me and gave me favor.

John S:

The problems that I used to think I had, I now call them prayer points and I’ll write them down and I just keep writing them down. Every night I hand them over. My headaches miraculously were cured a month or two after I sold up everything and God knew I was following him, He gave me a miraculous cure of my headaches and he blessed my business when I cut my hours back from 30 and committed to surrender, not just 50. Because I used to make business decisions and ask God to ratify them. To answer your question, Gary, I would say it’s moving from 50% surrender to 100% surrender and putting Jesus in control of my life.

John S:

But daily, I have to fight my natural tendency to take control again. That’s my human nature. Because I love competition, I love goals, I love challenge. The danger is, like Paul, that’s why Paul says that, daily we got to surrender and go back to our first love in the letter to the seven churches. In the Western world, we’ve created comfort Christianity and we’ve made things very much around suiting our intellectual and our creature comforts. I love creature comforts and that hasn’t changed. But anyway, if that answers your question.

Gary S:

Indeed.

Warwick F:

Wow. I mean, that is so powerful, John. I mean, you’re a driven competitive person. It’s almost like you had a road to Damascus moment, I guess, within a short period of time, the car crash and that talk by John Smith in your church. How would you describe the difference between the old John Sikkema and the one that you are now? What’s the biggest difference between those two John Sikkemas would you say?

John S:

I actually think the first John Sikkema was always looking for a return on investment. I don’t know if it’s my Dutch background. I think I had selective generosity. I think one of the things that God has shown me is we can actually be 24/7 generous with our time and our skill. Money is the least component of that. Most of us can write out a check to buy time. If we want to go to a footy game rather than visit someone in hospital or something, if we can give some money to someone else to go and do it, we’re masters of contracting out things we don’t want to do. I think we’ve done that with our Christian faith as well. I really feel we’ve really got to be prepared to be generous 24/7. On of the lessons I had to learn and I learned that from my Indian friend, we’ve got to do the sowing and leave the reaping to God.

John S:

I was brought up more… if I invest this amount of time here, I need to get a return here. But I think biblically, what we should be doing is we should sow here and be generous and expect nothing back. But amazingly, somewhere else, God will bless us way beyond what we did with that and that’s where the Malachi thing comes into it about where barns will be overflowing. Give me your first fruits and test me. But we don’t quite trust God enough to give more. I think Corinthians 2 chapter eight about generosity, giving when you can’t afford to give, taking steps of faith. I just come across Christians who quote Bible verses ad nauseum, but really I can see from their life, they demonstrate very little faith.

John S:

They want all the ducks lined up and they’re worried about what man will say. What we really need to do is not have all the ducks lined up and take a step of faith and allow Jesus to join us and help us. It’s like saying, I’ll give you the words, if you get into court or you get persecuted, don’t worry about what you’re going to say, I’ll give you the words. God works, not only I’ll give you the words, but I’ll give you the resources. If you have a big vision to do something for God, you haven’t got the resources, don’t worry about it. Just go and do… step towards it and allow God to provide the provision. We’ve got to sow, don’t expect a return where we sow, but we’ve got to keep sowing generously and leave the reaping to God and just be grateful.

John S:

Use what he puts in our hand. Don’t worry about quoting too many Bible verses. I think be more about action and not so much about the words, because I think we’ve become very clever in our Christian world and I think we’ve got to unlearn a lot of what we have grown up with. I do feel the founding fathers like Wesley or Calvin or Luther, if they saw what we were doing under the brands of churches and they would be horrified and they would say, “You’re heresy what you’re doing.” I think we’ve got to forget about labels and denominational. We just got to get back to the word of God and not allow any human interferences or agreements to… We made it too complex and we’re overthinking. We overthink everything today. We not only overthink all our decision making, but as Christians, we overthink and we will talk about prayer, right, and we’ll talk about Bible reading and we’ll talk about conferences and whatever. It’s really quite simple. Just got to take little simple steps. You can take them at work.

John S:

One of my big things that are motivated about at the moment, and I’m putting a book together and I’m not a good writer so I got to get a lot of help, but is to use your business to turbocharge your life purpose. The problem I find today is that people, this is where their life purpose is, but most people don’t even know what it is. We need to spend time with God to find what is my life purpose and then what we actually need to do is narrow the gap. Because my business is here and my life purpose here, the gap between those two is tension and pressure. If you can bring your business in alignment like a bikey with a slip stream in alignment, you can turbocharge your life purpose.

John S:

I think we really got to get clear about what my calling is and my business at 90 on your death bed, you’re not going to say Warwick, “I wish I’d built that $2 billion business.” What you’re going to be… and that’s what your book is about and people should read it. It’s a great message. What you’re about is we want to use our business and our influence and our networks and the people we know to fulfill the great commission, to become workers for the harvest. God convicted me that we as business people are the apostolic people, not just leaders in our business, but we need to be apostolic about… We are in the marketplace. Jesus did most of his stuff in the marketplace, but we’re living all the great commission staff and the workers for the harvest, we somehow have got that quarantined into paid church workers and we are over here making money we give to them. They can’t do it.

John S:

In Australia we’ve had seven decades of declining church membership. Business people need to be in the marketplace and be active in the great commission. We’ve got to get involved in becoming workers for the harvest. We’ve got to own that. The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few, pray to the Lord of the harvest, so pray Warwick, how God can use you in the harvest. Gary, pray how God can use you in the harvest. Keep a KPI. How many people are you sharing your faith with and not getting to church. Church is where two or three will gather. We’ve got involved in trying to build the church. Jesus said, “I’ll build the church.” I think we need to be involved in kingdom, building kingdom companies, be involved in the kingdom, be involved in sharing our faith in the marketplace.

John S:

God’s shown me and it’s a talk for another time, but Sue and I started a group in our house just getting business people to come here, who wouldn’t go to church. 90% of people I’ve asked them to come to church, say no. If I invite them to come for dinner at home, 90% say yes. We just got them in our home and started sharing some of the Halftime principles, got a home theater, we put on a meal once a fortnight, bring in some food, eight o’clock we go down to the home theater. I’d talk a bit about Halftime, about leaving a legacy, making your life count, being generous. Then I’ve been using some of the videos like Alpha or other things and we’ve actually, after one year we saw six people give their life to Jesus and we were able to baptize them down the beach recently. My passion is business people to get involved in the great commission, not just passive spectators.

Warwick F:

Wow. Well, thank you so much, John. As we kind of begin to close, what’s sort of amazing to me is you look at the, maybe before the accident and John Smith moment, you were very competitive, driven by success. I think as you write. It wasn’t just about money, more than money, it was the thrill of the chase, the thrill of the competition that was driving you. You’re still driven, but yet I sense that you are more… you’re not working any less. You’re not any less driven than you were. I don’t know that you’re working any less hours, but you’re more fulfilled. You have a happier marriage, your kids, a stronger relationship than you’ve ever been because your life is in service of a higher purpose. It’s in service of your fundamental beliefs and values. Obviously we share a common Christian faith. There may be others who do, maybe others have different values or different concept of a higher purpose.

Warwick F:

When you link your life, your business, everything you do to a higher purpose, then that gives you more joy and fulfillment. We in Crucible Leadership talk about a life of significance, very similar to what you do, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Well, that’s what you do, living a life of significance, living in line of your values and in your case and my case, Christian faith, you have a level of joy and fulfillment that every day you wake up excited, every night if you’re having trouble going to sleep, it’s because you’re so excited about what God’s doing in your life. It’s not because of the old reasons. Does that make sense? I mean, is that sort of one way of summarizing where you are today?

John S:

I have got as much energy as I had at 40. I’m passionate. I’m just eternally… I’m so grateful that I was given a second chance Warwick. I could have lost it all. I had bad health, I could have been bankrupt, I could have lost my marriage, I could have lost my kids. I could have lost everything. I’m just so grateful that I didn’t.

Warwick F:

It was in a sense like that road to-

John S:

Pretty close.

Warwick F:

… Damascus moment or-

John S:

I felt I was at close to the edge of losing it all and it made me just really-

Warwick F:

There was one path that went down to misery and destruction and there was another path that went to redemption, joy and significance and you picked the road that led to joy, significance, stronger marriage, stronger relationships, stronger faith. It sounds like you picked the right road.

Gary S:

That is a great time gentlemen. I just heard the captain turn on the fasten seatbelt sign because it’s getting time to land the plane. In this particular case, the plane of course is a Qantas jet.

Warwick F:

Of course.

John S:

Oh, great…

Gary S:

I would be remiss, John. I would be remiss if I did not make good on my promise at the outset when I said that if you’re a CEO and would like to engage John as an executive business mentor and coach, and then I said, keep listening and you’ll find out how. How can our listeners find out more about you John and about Halftime Australia?

John S:

If you just Google halftimeaustralia.org.au, there are contact detail’s on there. Halftime Australia, it’s just halftime.org.au is the website and you can contact me through that.

Gary S:

Excellent. Warwick, final question?

Warwick F:

No. Just thank you so much for your example of really being dedicated to faith to God and just really following the calling in your heart that you were given at age 14. I mean, it’s amazing. God put that thought in you and maybe the embers kind of died down a little over the years, but never fully went out. That fateful moment of the car crash and that talk by the bikey guy, John Smith, that ember was fanned into flame and your purpose from then just went through the roof. It’s just a great example of somebody who can be successful and joyful. Success and significance is not either-or. You have accomplished both. You have modeled for other business leaders that you can have it all in the sense of it’s okay to be successful in business, but you can have joy and satisfaction and significance too. You’re really a great example of what’s possible.

John S:

One little thing is I never thought that Sue and I could become a team. We’re so different, but we are an amazing team. It’s just got better and better. I couldn’t believe it because I’m very fast paced, I change gears, I’m an ideas going everywhere, but it’s amazing how we got onto a vision that we both bought into, a purpose and we both know the roles where we fit and we help each other. We’ve become a real team like I did within the business, I found a really good business partner and I’m blown away. I never thought that was possible. Anyone who’s listening, don’t believe that you and your wife can’t become amazing team, even though you are not now. That can happen, but it will take a lot of work, but it’s possible using personality profiling, dying to self, working with your strengths, just looking at and finding out what each of your visions are and seeing the bridge you can build between them.

John S:

It’s amazing. I could not believe it. I would have rated us as a team at five out of 10, and we’re that close to 10 now, but it didn’t happen overnight. It took a little bit at a time. But anyway, so give hope, because for a lot of guys, that’s a huge problem. They think they can never team with their spouse. But it is possible, but you got to use… The view I took to Sue is I’ve got to coach and mentor her like she’s the most valuable, highest paid employee in my company. How do I help her succeed in that role?

Gary S:

That sound you heard listeners is the wheels on the ground. The plane has landed. I’ve been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word is spoken and when the last word is spoken about shared vision made reality, both personally and professionally for Crucible Leadership and Beyond The Crucible, that’s the place to land. I’ve also been in the communications business long enough though to know there are probably people who have been listening, who have heard as John was telling some of his stories and Warwick made mention of it too, these 13 things that John wrote down when he had an epiphany in his life and I’m going to leave you listeners with what those 13 things are. I’m going to preface my reading of John’s 13 things by saying something that Warwick alluded to a little bit ago, John is clearly passionately a Christian, Warwick, clearly passionately a Christian. I am passionately a Christian. Maybe it’s not as clear because I don’t talk on the show all that often, all that much.

Gary S:

But even if you’re not a Christian, the principles that John laid out in his 13 things to change, you can find application for your life. You’ll see some things in here that will talk about Bible and talk about Jesus, while we believe that is the best way to carry these things out, it’s not the only way. As Warwick talks about, there are anchors for your soul, anchors for your way of life that are rooted in something more eternal that you can find. Keep that in mind as I read these 13 things to change that John wrote down.

Gary S:

Number one, make myself available for community work. Number two, stop making decisions based on what I wanted, but make decisions in keeping with helping others succeed, which was his new purpose. Number three, begin to read the Bible personally like it was written just for him. Number four, make it a priority to spend time with my wife and children and friends. Number five, apply Christian principles to my business. Number six, be prepared to make a fool of myself for what I know to be right. That one’s good. I’m going to say it again. Number six, be prepared to make a fool of myself for what I know to be right.

Gary S:

Number seven, stop chasing success and pursue purpose instead. The crux of Crucible Leadership. Number eight, dream more and follow those dreams. Number nine, be kind to myself. Number 10, take more risks. Number 11, be honest about my weaknesses, and I love the second half of this. Part B of this, be honest about my weaknesses, part A and part B, and let other people cover those. Number 12, accept pain and make hard decisions. What we talk about on Beyond The Crucible all the time, from that pain and the decisions you make after that pain can spring forth your passion, your vision for your future. The last, number 13, the baker’s dozen as we call it here in the States. I don’t know if they call it there in Australia. Number 13, don’t be competitive just for the sake of winning.

Gary S:

13 ways to go about changing your life that can lead you down a road to a better way of life, a life on purpose for purpose. Until we are together, next time listener. Thank you for spending time with us on this episode of Beyond The Crucible. Warwick and I have a little favor to ask you. If you’ve enjoyed this conversation, if you’ve enjoyed previous conversations and have not yet clicked subscribe, we ask you to click subscribe on the podcast app on which you’re listening, share this episode with your friends and family so that they can also gather the hope and the healing that we hope comes out of these discussions with men like John Sikkema and women who we’ve talked to who have gone through crucible experiences and have emerged on the other side living more robust lives, focused on more important principles.

Gary S:

That’s the truth that we want to come through in every episode of Beyond The Crucible and that truth is this, that your crucible experience is painful, we know it. All three of us who’ve been part of this conversation have had very painful crucibles, but those crucibles were not the end of our story. It wasn’t the end of John’s story, for sure. It wasn’t the end of Warwick’s story for sure and it does not have to be the end of your story. Your crucible experience in fact can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story. Here’s the remarkable thing, it can be the best chapter yet. Because if you learn the lessons of the crucible and you apply them as you move forward, where that chapter leads is to a destination you couldn’t have imagined before the crucible and that destination is a life of significance.

How do you maintain the delicate balance between pursuing a vision that you are passionate about and treating well the men and women who are sharing that journey with you? Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax unpacks practical tips to follow in this conversation with co-host Gary Schneeberger. From keeping your ego in check … to focusing on the process, not on chasing an outcome … from making sure team members know you value them as much as you value your vision … to walking the talk so they believe it, they lay out a roadmap to both bouncing back from past crucibles and avoiding future ones.

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Gary S:
We’ve all heard people say, don’t take your eye off the ball, but here’s the truth, right? Sometimes you have to take your eye off the ball and put your eye on the ballplayers. You have to keep in mind that yeah, the ball, the vision, the game is important, but you need the ballplayers to get you the Victory. That friends can be a whole lot easier said than done. If that wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t be dedicating an entire podcast episode to the need to balance your vision as a leader, with caring for the team that helps you accomplish that vision. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, your co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership.

Gary S:
Today Warwick and I talk through his most recent blog about just how you maintain that delicate balance between pursuing the values you hold most dear and treating well, the men and women who are sharing that journey to a life of significance with you. From keeping your ego in check to focusing on the process, not on chasing an outcome. From making sure team members know you value them as much as you value your vision to walking the talk, so they believe it. We lay out Warwick’s roadmap to both bouncing back from past crucibles and avoiding future ones.

Gary S:
Listener what we’re going to talk about today, this is one of those episodes if you have been listening for a while, we’re working, I don’t have a guest, it’s just the two of us knocking about with Crucible Leadership concepts. The idea behind this one is, and again, it’s always fun. I say it all the time what it happens. We’re not exactly sure what we’re going to call it. When we don’t know what we’re going to call it, it’s great because we’ll know what to call it when we’re done, but you already know what we called it before you clicked on it, because it’s done for you. It’s happening for us. This’ll be fun. This will be discovery for both of us.

Gary S:
We’re discovering what the show’s primary thrust is going to be in terms of what we’re going to name it. You already know that because you saw it when you clicked. But the idea behind it is that you need as a leader to balance your task, your vision, and the people who you have called to you to carry out that vision. There’s a balance required. If it’s out of alignment, not to get too personal, but I have a bad back. Sometimes my back’s out of alignment. That’s not good. If your vision and your relationship, your care of your relationship with your team is out of alignment, out of whack, it can because some problems. That’s what we’re going to walk through what the problems can be and then where we like to live in the solutions. That’s a fair summary of where we’re at. Right Warwick?

Warwick F:
Yeah, it is. Often we just think of visionaries that trying to get this grand cause accomplished. Sometimes what can happen is, you’re so focused on your vision, accomplishing your goals, that people can fall by the wayside. It’s often not because we intend to hurt anybody or ignore people. We just get really focused on the vision. The funny thing is that, the more passionate you are about the vision, the more you think that your vision really matters can help a lot of people. It’s almost the more dangerous the situation can be. Almost the more likely if you’re not careful of treading on people, ignoring them or hurting them, which is ironic.

Warwick F:
Because for some people you’re all about making the world a better place, but in the process, you can tread over people or crush them in the process. You don’t intend to, but it can happen. And so that’s really the core thought about this podcast.

Gary S:
And it’s interesting that we’re talking about vision, because what you just described can be a different kind of vision, which is tunnel vision. You can get tunnel vision sometimes as you pursue a vision. You can focus so much on the vision that you forget to put energy, effort, attention, affirmation, into the team that’s helping you carry out that vision. One of the things as we’ve talked about, what we’re going to cover here. One of the phrases that popped in my head, we’ve all heard people say, don’t take your eye off the ball, but here’s the truth, right? Sometimes you have to take your eye off the ball and put your eye on the ballplayers. You have to keep in mind that yeah, the ball, the vision, the game is important, but you need the ballplayers to get you the victory.

Warwick F:
Exactly. You do need both. The interesting thing is, you often think about in terms of the business and accomplishing goals and how a lot of these hard headed business men and women, they can run over their people as they try to achieve their objectives of 20% earnings increase over X amount of time. And that’s all true. One of the things I think about which we’ve, beginning to talk about is, if you’ve come out of a crucible and maybe you’ve had a personal tragedy, maybe an injury, professional crisis, maybe you have this vision that you don’t want anybody to go through what you went through, this vision that you feel like the world needs. It may be literally lives may depend on the success of your vision.

Warwick F:
Sometimes when you feel so strongly about things, you can be so focused on the vision in your words, tunnel vision, that you can ignore people on the way. You can be short with them. You can say, well, unless perfection is achieved, you need to get off the bus. You make one mistake you’re out, because lives depend on this, right? It could be literally lives depend on it. And so that’s where you can be so tunnel vision, so focused on the vision that I don’t know that it’s worse in a nonprofit, but it can be more tempting to justify your bullheadedness, your charge ahead, damn the torpedoes mentality and ignore people on the way.

Warwick F:
Ironically if you’re in some nonprofit, you would think you would care more about people and you should. But sometimes when you’re so caught up in the vision, that’s probably the main point. The more caught up you are in your vision, the more important you think it is, the more dangerous it is. The more if you’re not careful, the more tendency you might have to walk over people, it’s ironic and sad.

Gary S:
Right. Because right, if you’re in a nonprofit, you’re not doing it for the money by definition, it’s a nonprofit, you’re not doing it for profit and you’re doing it to help people. Right? The whole idea is we’re doing great work. Some people will say we’re doing God’s work if it’s a Christian nonprofit. Some people will say we’re doing great community work, whatever that is, because the mission that has such significance, to use a Crucible Leadership word. You can ironically, as you said, forget that you got to treat the people on your team right, while you’re taking care of the people that your nonprofit is serving.

Warwick F:
One of the things that I think we’re going to get into is, it’s not an either or position, it’s not people versus task, people versus mission, no matter how important the mission or vision is. It’s a both end. No mission or vision is so important that it is worth mistreating people, firing them unnecessarily, walking all over them. It’s just never worth it. Obviously as a person of faith, I think there’s a lot of scriptures on there. There’s a few, there’s one scripture really talks about basically zeal is good, but make sure it’s serving the Lord, which basically means zeal is good, but make sure you keep it in context and it’s not all about you, which we’ll also get into.

Warwick F:
Probably a favorite one of mine is, there is a scripture on Mark that says, “What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?” More broadly it’s, what good is it if we accomplish the mission at the expense of the team and treading all over them? To me it’s not worth it. And as we’ll get into, ironically, if you treat your team properly, you treasure your team, honor them, that you will have more chance of success, not less. And so it’s basically no vision, no mission is so important that it’s worth treading all over people. It’s just isn’t, and that’s at least my position, if you will.

Gary S:
It’s interesting that we framed this up in the beginning as a conversation about the balance between vision and team. There’s another balance that’s underneath that. I spent a lot of time before we started recording, poking around Harvard Business Review, trying to find some articles that support some of the stuff we’re talking about or talk about some of the stuff that we’re talking about. It’s very interesting, you say often Crucible Leadership makes a key point about the need for leaders to pursue a vision. It’s critical coming out of a crucible to have a vision that you can make reality and that to have a team to do that is also critical.

Gary S:
It’s also interesting that vision’s important to leaders, but vision’s also important to teams. Harvard Business Review did this fascinating study, an ongoing project, serving tens of thousands of working people around the world, and then asked them a simple question. What do you look for and admire in a leader? Not surprisingly they said honesty was number one. Number two was a sense that he or she is looking forward. Right? That’s all about a vision. Teams, right after honesty in leaders, teams, the people who work for you as a leader, they want you to be forward looking. The need to balance is for the health of both the team and the leader. That makes it really high stakes poker, if you will, doesn’t it?

Warwick F:
It does. Really you want to set a vision and as we’ll get into you want enfold your team in that vision. I think more and more people today, I think of Chris Tuff, who we had on the podcast who wrote the book, Millennial Whisperer. He said, millennials, they really, they want authenticity, they want vulnerability, but they also want to feel what they do matters. They want to do work that matters. Yes they want to get treated fairly and paid a competitive rate. It really is a both and. If you want to accomplish your vision, you’ve got to enfold the team. Yes, you want the right people on the bus with the right skills. They have to perform, work hard, that’s all a given. You want to honor your team, but it’s a mutual contract.

Warwick F:
They have to have the skills and the desire to make this vision happen. But bottom line it is a both and. It is task and people from really two main standpoints, the vision, what happened with, unless your team is on board and it’s my proposition that no vision is so worthwhile that it’s worth running all over people. That’s never a vision that’s worthy of accomplish. It certainly won’t help you lead a life of significance or as we talk about a legacy that you can be proud of. You don’t want that eulogy, Fred or Mary accomplished a great vision, but the body count was huge. You don’t want that to be your eulogy. Do you? Who would want that?

Gary S:
Right. They’ll be weeping at that eulogy, but it will be for a different reason.

Warwick F:
Right. Exactly.

Gary S:
I’ve just created Warwick. I’ve just created the first Crucible Leadership, Beyond the Crucible product, a bumper sticker, we can create. Vision needs a team and a team wants a vision.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. Amen. Absolutely.

Gary S:
Those two things go together. We can put that on the back of our cars and move along. All of this discussion, this has been preamble for a discussion on how you do that balancing work. How do you balance the task, the mission versus the people? This is a subject that you have written a blog about that either will be at crucibleleadership.com by the time this podcast comes out or will be there shortly. You can check at crucibleleadership.com to see if it’s up there. If it’s not up there, when you look right now, it will be up there soon. But you unpack in that blog, Warwick, seven ways to balance task and people. It’s not, as you said, an either or, it’s they’re altogether, how do you keep it in alignment so you don’t have the painful effects of someone with a bad back? Right?

Gary S:
That you’ve got an alignment so it’s all working out well. Your first point is perhaps the best one to start at, because if you don’t do this, the other six aren’t going to fall into place and that’s, value your team. Why is that so important as we look to balance mission and the team that’s carrying out that mission?

Warwick F:
Part of it is what we were just talking about in terms of legacy, is that no vision, no matter how important it is, is worth sacrificing your team. That’s really just a value judgment. Yes, as I’ve said, you want people that are a good fit, that work hard, that buy-in to the vision, and you want them all to be committed, but just saying victory at all costs, that’s just never a proposition that’s worthwhile. You have to ask yourself, well, what are your values? Is it really victory at all costs, no matter how many people you have to hurt? Very few people would say that. When you build your team, just think, well, what’s really important to you and just make this fundamental decision that I am going to value my team, as the saying goes, I’m going to treasure my employees. I want what they think matters. I want them to feel important.

Gary S:
Right. This idea of, and I didn’t pull any of these articles, but there’s lots of, it’s interesting that a publication like Harvard Business Review, which focuses a lot on research. They have a lot of research that I found this morning on not only how you show appreciation in the workplace as a leader, but why it’s so important. This idea of feeling valued. We all know what that’s like. We all know what it’s to not feel valued by leadership. And that can depress you in both senses of the word. It can make you sad and it can depress your energy and enthusiasm for the job. I’m going to do job description and get by if you don’t feel appreciated. But it can also, when you do feel appreciated, it lights a fire under you.

Gary S:
It’s not that traditional you’re in trouble connotation, right? We’re going to light a fire under that guy. No, it lights a fire under you in a positive way because of positive things that are occurring. That really is the starting pistol for what we’re talking about, is this idea of valuing your team. If you start there, if your team knows that you value them as much as you value the vision. And sometimes you show that you value them more than the vision, not long term necessarily, but there are times that you pause, let’s put a flag in the vision and let’s focus on the people. That leads into your second point that you’ve unpacked in the blog, is that it truly is the mission and your team. They are equal partners in your pursuit, right?

Warwick F:
It is. We had somebody on the podcast a little while ago, Bryan Price, who is a West Point graduate former army officer, and currently leads the Buccino Institute at Seton Hall University. He said in the military, they talk about mission first people always. And obviously in the military lives are literally at stake in terms of how well a mission is conducted in the enemy they’re against. And so it must be a both and. That’s almost the ultimate where lives are in the balance. The irony is, as I think we’ve been alluding to is, if you really care for your team, make sure they’re on board and they are heard, and they are listened to and they contribute to the process and have input into the vision.

Warwick F:
Which I think as we’ve also talked about before, that’s a very brave move to allow your team to have input into the vision. One of the analogies we talk about in the book, which will be coming out later.

Gary S:
There you go. Coming out when, the word?

Warwick F:
October.

Gary S:
And the book that Warwick referred to it was his book called Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance. Out on October 19th. Available where all fine books are sold and even some not so fine books, but Warwick’s is a fine book for sure.

Warwick F:
And so one of the stories we talk about in that book is in Florence, there’s the Michelangelo’s statue of David. And so the analogy we use in Crucible Leadership is when you have a team, you’ve got to be willing to give them the hammer and chisel and say, okay, I’d love your input. If you ask for input, you got to be willing to take at least some of it. And as we also often say, if it’s 80% of your vision with 100% buy-in, it’s better than 100% of your vision with 0% buy-in. And so ironically if you allow your team to contribute to the vision, they will be more bought in and your chance of your vision happening is much greater. And so when we talk about it’s not vision or team, it’s basically unless it’s vision and team, there’s no vision, the vision won’t happen.

Warwick F:
Even if you’re somebody that doesn’t care about people, and if you don’t, you probably shouldn’t be a leader. But if for some incredible reason, you’re a leader, well think of it from your own selfish self interested point of view, which is, if you want your vision to happen, you’ve got to get buy-in from your team. It makes business sense, mission sense. It makes sense in terms of values and honoring people. It just makes sense on every grid you can think of. That’s why I just love what Bryan Price said, it is indeed mission first, people always, it always has to be both.

Gary S:
Right. And if, as you said, when you first brought that up from Bryan, if that is a phrase, is a goal in the military where lives are literally at stake. And if it’s mission, first people always in that serious situation, how much more so when lives usually aren’t at stake in what we’re doing in our leadership. I am going to take a page from my journalism background and ask you a leading question now, which I think will be an on ramp into point three of how to balance task and people. And that is why Warwick do you think that many leaders, some leaders just aren’t that good in showing appreciation, bringing the team along, building a team to help carry out the vision? Why do you think that’s so hard for some leaders?

Warwick F:
I think at the root, it’s ego. Sometimes-

Gary S:
That’s the third point in the blog listeners.

Warwick F:
Exactly.

Gary S:
Check your ego. There you go.

Warwick F:
The E word, ego. Sometimes you have a vision and that’s maybe in the world, it’s a new invention. You see there’s a market made and it’s boy, you really in love with yourself. This piece of technology is going to revolutionize the market. You just feel this is my ticket to the big house, to the nice house, the boat, the lifestyle, all your dreams will be achieved. Even in the nonprofit world, maybe this thing you’re founding can provide clean water in parts of Africa that don’t have it. Maybe it’s a new low cost filtration system or something. It could be for-profit. It could be non-profit. But in either case, you can feel this is important and I’m pretty hot staff.

Warwick F:
Even when you don’t mean to mistreat people, when it’s all about you, we can end up getting short. We can maybe cut relational corners, we can get impatient. It’s like, these folks are letting me down. Maybe I need to cycle through a few dozen senior team members until I find somebody that doesn’t make a mistake, because it’s one strike and you’re out. Because this is too important either because this is going to make me tons of money and if we wait around the competitor might strike. We can’t afford people that only work 23 hours a day. It’s got to be 24 hours a day minimum and no mistakes. They have to say yes to every idea I have because after all I’m never wrong and they’re always wrong.

Warwick F:
Taken to its extreme, ego can be a huge problem of having both team and vision and ego, frankly unchecked can also prove the death knell with business. It’s ironic that when you think about small businesses that become successful, very often, they stall out at the small to medium category, because the founder has so much ego, which can be good for drive and the sense of getting stuff off the ground. But then they can’t bring in professional managers because typically the founder is an entrepreneur and entrepreneurs are rarely good general managers and general managers aren’t always good entrepreneurs. You can’t have all the gifts. Smart entrepreneurs say like, I’m still going to be the visionary.

Warwick F:
I’ll be out there promoting it, selling it, advocating it, but I’m going to leave somebody else to run it a day-to-day. Well, why doesn’t that happen more often? The ego gets in the way, it’s extremely common. Don’t let your ego get in the way.

Gary S:
There’s a great Harvard Business Review article that I found, the headline of which summarizes exactly what you’re saying. Ego is the enemy of good leadership and it lists, it says straight up that overcoming that, getting beyond that temptation to live in ego is as Harvard Business Review puts it, it requires selflessness, reflection and courage. They gave three tips. I want to read these three tips because they’re pretty short, but they’re good. How to help you overcome, A recognize if ego may be a problem and two overcome it. One, consider the perks and privileges you’re being offered in your role. Some of them enable you to do your job effectively, and that’s great, but some of them are simply perks to promote your status and power and ultimately ego.

Gary S:
Consider which of your privileges you can let go of. It could be that reserve parking spot, or it could be a special pass for the elevator. The second point, support, develop and work with people, you touched on this Warwick, who won’t feed your ego. Hire smart people with the confidence to speak up. The last one, I just love everything they say in this third tip on how to sidestep, overcome ego being a challenge for you. Humility and gratitude are the cornerstone of selflessness. Make a habit of taking a moment at the end of each day, to reflect on all the people who were part of making you successful on that day. This helps you develop a natural sense of humility by seeing how you are not the only cause of your success.

Gary S:
End the reflection by actively sending a message of gratitude to those people you identified. Practice those things, and it’s hard to blindly walk with ego being your driver. Isn’t it?

Warwick F:
It really is. It reminds me of a book by Jim Collins, which we also talk about in the book. Good to Great. He did a study based on a number of companies that had 15 years of, okay returns to the stock market followed by 15 years of fantastic returns. They were all driven leaders, but they were also humble. When you ask them keys to success, says well, I just have a great team. It’s almost like I just get out of the way and let my team do their thing. It’s not quite that simple, but they’re all humble. And so great leaders, they do check their ego at the door. They’re not afraid of hiring people that are better, quicker, smarter than they are. And why wouldn’t you be? If you’re all about success, why does it matter if your team is better than you?

Warwick F:
Ironically you can’t be good at all things. Maybe you have somebody that’s fantastic at marketing, sales, manufacturing, research and development. You can’t be the expert at all those things. Nobody can be, but in their field their bound to know more than you will. If they don’t, you’re probably hiring the wrong people in terms of their particular field of expertise. It just makes sense. Ego does get in the way of success. Ego tends to trample on people. I don’t know that people wake up in the morning saying, how many people am I going to chew out today? It’d be like, policeman don’t wake up saying, okay how many people can I give traffic ticket to today? Maybe they do. I’d like to think they don’t.

Gary S:
My dad was a cop, he did have quotas he had to hit, but I don’t know that I don’t know that he woke up thinking that.

Warwick F:
But you don’t want to think how many people can I fire today? It’s like, you’re fired, I just love that. Yeah, you’re fired. It’s like, really? That can’t be your attitude to life. Ego gets in the way of success. It makes poor business and organizational sense. So you definitely got to check your ego at the door if you want to be successful.

Gary S:
That’s point number three. Point number four logically follows off that. And that is focus on the process, not the outcome. And I say that logically follows from what we just discussed, because what we just discussed was the idea of the outcome could be, okay, I’ve got to fire you. I’ve got to hold you accountable. I’ve got to focus on the process, not the outcome. What were you thinking when you wrote that, Warwick?

Warwick F:
Really, it probably goes with ego. You can get so focused on your vision. So manic about it, that it’s got to succeed. It’s got to succeed immediately. Focus on the process might be as good to have a clear vision. It’s good to have a well thought out strategy and you want to have a great team, but you also want to take it a day at a time. You can’t control the results of what’s going to happen. Maybe the economy goes South, maybe the competition’s there, government regulation, there’s all sorts of things in life that can alter the outcome that you desire, the outcome that you want. If you have a good strategy, you have a good team, and really the issue is, what’s my goal for today, for next week, for next month?

Warwick F:
Typically to achieve anything great there’s a process and it can take forever, but don’t be so fixated on the result that you ignore the process, because if you ignore the day-to-day process, well the result and the outcome probably won’t happen. Stay in the now. Have a plan, have a strategy but stay in the now.

Gary S:
This is the moment of every podcast. It doesn’t happen on every podcast, but every podcast it happens on I love, because this is my chance to maybe embarrass you a little. By saying what you just said Warwick, in all honesty and seriousness, what you just said is a good description of what happened in your life after your takeover bid for the Family Media company failed. It was not an overnight process that led to that book that you held up. There was a lot of years, this was in 1990 when the failure took place and your process took a while. Is that fair?

Warwick F:
Yeah. Sometimes you don’t even know what the steps are like, as listeners know I got a job in a local aviation services company in Maryland doing business and financial analysis. Went to an executive coach that did mid career assessment, that said I had a good advisor, a reflective type that maybe being executive coach would be good. All these were way points, but I just, I didn’t quite know where it was going to end up, but I just followed the path. But even this book, this book is 12 years in the making literally. As listeners know, in 2008, the pastor of our church here wanted me to give a talk about basically what I went through and because it’s church, well, I felt God was teaching me through it. Somehow it resonated with people, weeks and months after, even though, I was the only ex media mogul in the church that day, but somehow it resonated.

Warwick F:
Well, okay. So then it took me a few years to write it, because imagine spending time writing about the most painful experiences in your life, in some cases, some of the most dumbest decision. After two or three hours a day, I was done, I needed to recover for the rest of the day before I went to the lion’s den. Let’s relive that pain again. But even once I’d written it, to get it published, chatted to some folks in Australia and for a variety of reasons, maybe it was too close or they wanted more sensational, it didn’t quite work out. Came over, was looking to get it published here.

Warwick F:
That was a whole process. It’s like, well, you need a brand. Okay. I guess, brought in some great brand branding people from, in Denver SIGNAL.csk and yourself from ROAR in terms of public relations and helping me fine tune the book. It was step after step after step. Even the most recent story just over this last year, we signed a book deal with Mount Tabor Media, and Morgan James, almost exactly a year ago, but then we had to condense the book a bit, maybe 20% or so. I had an editor assist me with that. And then you and I went through it page by page, refining it.

Gary S:
More than once, we went page by page several times.

Warwick F:
Oh yeah. And then it’s like, okay, great. Well then we need a book cover. We had somebody who was an expert in cover design and then interior layout, had somebody advise us on that. And then what images do we want? It’s just step after step after step after step. It almost seemed endless. But you just got to say, well, in this case, this mission, this book, this is too important to short circuit. Just the cover, we went through numerous versions to get the right one, and to get the back cover and to get the right quotes, which you, Gary helped with a lot just to help figure out which ones. Good things are worth doing well. And so don’t tread over people and don’t short circuit the process. If you short circuit the process out of impatience and I like to feel I’m actually pretty impatient, good things don’t happen.

Warwick F:
If you value the mission and the vision, follow the process, a step at a time. It’ll be annoying because each step will seem like it takes forever, but it’s worth it. It absolutely is worth it. You’ll have a better product, a better executed vision than if you don’t try to live in the now and live each day.

Gary S:
Right. And the way that you’ve worded this in the blog, and I’ll go back to the way I introduced it, focus on the process, not on the outcome. Let’s apply that. Let’s put that framework over the story that you just told about your own journey. If you at any point in the process leaped forward to the outcome, you wouldn’t hold in your hand what you hold in your hand, you’d hold something in your hand, but it wouldn’t be as good as that is, as focused as that is, as excellent as that is. I want the listener to really grasp this idea. You come out of a crucible, you have a vision, you’re moving to execute it. You have a team there. Take the time to be able to, Warwick says it a lot on this show. Almost every episode he’ll talk about what’s one small step you can take to do X, Y, or Z.

Gary S:
Focus on the process. Focus on those small steps. As Warwick just described, some of it was, hiring a branding firm. Some of it was hiring an editor to help him condense the book and rearrange the chapters a little bit. Any of those steps skipped or rushed would have affected the outcome. So focusing on the process not the outcome ensures a better outcome.

Warwick F:
Let me give you one specific example. Over the last year, one specific step. We went to Morgan James a year ago, the book was about a hundred thousand words, which is not terrible. But they said, look, our preference would be to have it, based on their experience, it’ll be a better book, a tighter book if we can get it somewhere around 80,000. Now, they said to me, we’ll publish as is. We like it. We think it’s good. But we found a good editor, but getting it to 80,000 was going to take, I don’t know, couple months, maybe it was more, I forget. It was somewhere around a couple months. Now I could have said, I’m not willing to wait, let’s just go.

Gary S:
Right. I’ve been waiting 12 years. I want to go now.

Warwick F:
They said, yes. Why not take the win? They said they were willing to publish it. But my attitude was, look, I grew up in newspapers, an 80,000 book is almost always better than a 100,000 book. You cut out the fat, the wastage, if you will. Why would I not want it to be a better book? If it takes a couple months and more rereading and more tinkering let’s do it. But that was a conscious decision. Don’t say yes to the 100,000 just because somebody’s going to say yes. But when they give you good advice and these are experts in their field and it’s like, it will be a better book if we can get it to 80. Thank you. Great. Let’s get it to 80.

Gary S:
Yup. You’re saying that in the context of the journey that will lead to in October, the publication of Crucible Leadership, the book, but it applies to any crucible anyone’s gone through as they build a vision to come back from that crucible and a team to carry it out. Focus on process, not the outcome, point four. That was point four. Point five, here’s another one that’s hard for leaders sometimes, be willing to apologize.

Warwick F:
Here’s the thing is, if you’re a passionate person about your vision and every visionary leader that I know is. If you’re not passionate about the vision, what in the heck are you doing? Just don’t do it. But you have to be passionate about your vision. And pretty much every visionary leader I know that is. Problem with passion is sometimes you get so passionate that you can get short with people. You can get impatient, and unwittingly you can start treading on people, causing problems. And so when that happens, you have to be willing to apologize. You’ve got to be willing to say, you know what, I messed up. I’m sorry. You’ve just got to be willing to do that, because I think your team is going to understand, they are passionate too. But inevitably you are going to make mistakes.

Warwick F:
You’re going to say things you shouldn’t say and accidentally tread on people. When that happens, apologize. We’re human, it will happen, it’s inevitable. Apologize and then you can move on. Don’t apologize and people might start leaving, especially if you do it too much.

Gary S:
Right. Going back to the first point that we talked about here, value your team. That’s one of the ways you show that you value your team, is apology. A real heartfelt apology, not what I call a Janet Jackson apology. If you remember during the Super Bowl a decade or so ago, Janet Jackson had her wardrobe malfunction. And she said, I’m sorry if anybody was offended. That isn’t an apology. She should have said, I’m sorry I did this. Not that.

Warwick F:
One of my pet peeves is the sorry if. Because sorry if means, I did nothing wrong and you’re just overly sensitive. I’m sorry if because you’re so sensitive and weak skinned that it hurt you. That’s almost worse than no apology. No sorry ifs. It never works. It’s salt in the wounds. It’s not a good idea.

Gary S:
And there’s no way to go through life without, we bump into each other in life, right? Figuratively and literally. We all are going to encounter situations where we have to apologize. My dad, I said earlier was a cop. My dad taught me this thing about car accidents. You’re always at fault in some way for a car accident. Even if your car is parked on us on the side of the road and somebody hits you, the cop will give you 3% of the fault because your car was parked there. In other words, it’s hard to go through life, and if you think you’re one of the people that can go through life with never making a mistake that needs an apology, sorry, you are as Fonzie would have said, not apologizing correctly on Happy Days, you are, wro, wro, wro, you’re wrong.

Gary S:
You will encounter situations where you have to apologize, do it, honestly do it with integrity and do it fully, not halfway and not falsely. The sixth point in your blog that we’ll talk about. You talk about recalibrating. After all these five other points have happened, what do you mean by recalibrate at that point?

Warwick F:
Sometimes it can be because you’ve just riden other people and you need to apologize. Sometimes it can be, you’re ego driven, you’re not following the process. You’re not consulting your team. What that means is, it can be you know what folks, I was so focused on the vision, I thought, man, if we don’t get to market soon, we’ll lose our opportunity. We need to get moving because this non profit, maybe it’s something will save lives in other countries. Whatever it is you need to say, not only I’m sorry, but here’s what we’re going to do different. I’m going to consult you more. I want your input more. I want you to feel heard. We talk about creating safe places, well you want to create safe places where people can really feel that they’re valued and their input is important.

Warwick F:
It’s one thing to apologize. But as we’ll get into the final point is, you’ve got to recalibrate and let people know that things will be different and then tell them what is going to be different. That’s absolutely key.

Gary S:
The last point, point seven. The perfect number seven. Point seven is, walk the talk. On all of these things, if you added them all up, as you see them on the blog, when you go to crucibleleadership.com and you see the blog on this subject listener, take those first six steps, add them all up, at the end of the day, step seven is the linchpin. Step seven is the coda. Step seven is the glue that holds it all together. Walk the talk. Unpack that a little bit.

Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely. Some people feel like leadership is about great speeches. They give the one big, great speech and they expect life to change. Well, it’s not. It’s about living it out day-to-day. You’ve got to live your message. And so if you talk about, you know what, we’re going to do it differently. I want to hear your opinions. I want to make sure, maybe it’s not consensus, but I definitely want to hear your input. Somebody comes into your office and say, hey, look, boss, I just have this idea. I’m actually, I’m busy now, come back tomorrow. They come back tomorrow and you’re still busy. Or they offer an idea, and every single time they offer an idea. In fact, every single time, anybody in your team offers an idea over the next three months, it’s always no, but then you keep saying I’m open to your opinions.

Warwick F:
It just, as soon as one of you knuckleheads has an opinion worth listening to, I’ll listen to it. Until then, until you are able to find a brain and a clue, of course, I’m going to ignore you. In fact, I’m close to firing you. But as I said, I treasure my employees and your opinion matters. You’ve got to walk the talk. You’ve got to be able to listen to them. And really one of the final things we talk about in the blog, in that point is, you’ve got to trust the process and you’ve got to trust the outcome. Don’t be so focused on the outcome, that I want to achieve X goals for my business, for my nonprofit. It’s good to have goals and strategies, but sometimes plans change whether it’s the market, the economy or people’s needs change.

Warwick F:
And that’s okay. You’ve got to trust to, whether you’re a person of faith, whether that’s God, fate or the universe, what have you, that if you put your maximum effort in, you feel you’ve got a good plan and a good team. You’ve got to trust the process and trust whatever the outcome happens, because you can’t control the outcome. You can control your effort and your plans and the process and your team, but the precise outcome is not guaranteed. Good things do tend to happen if you’ve got a good team, a good plan and you thought it through, but don’t get so fixated on the outcome, trust the process, trust the team. That is a much better way to go.

Gary S:
The outcome, to say it takes care of itself is a bit of a misnomer because you’re following these seven steps. You’re going back to that initial Harvard Business Review story, I said of what employees want to see in leaders. The first thing was honesty, right? In addition to a vision. You put all those things together and that helps shape the outcome. The outcome doesn’t necessarily take care of itself, your steps, your one small steps that you talk about, your trust the process, the stones in the road as you walk that journey to get your vision into reality, as you walk that journey to take your vision for a book to reality, that helps shape the outcome. If you do it with consistency, if you do it with honesty, if you do it with humility, it leads to a better outcome. Doesn’t it?

Warwick F:
Well, it does. It leads to a legacy that you can be proud of. One thing we talked a bit about beforehand and just been thinking about is, John Fairfax’s legacy. That’s an interesting thing.

Gary S:
John Fairfax, just so we can set it right. John Fairfax is your great, great grandfather. John Fairfax founded the company that was John Fairfax Limited and then became Fairfax Media and had some other names. That’s the company that you launched the take over for that was unsuccessful.

Warwick F:
Indeed, the large 150 year old family media company. He was a person of faith. He was a great businessman, a great husband, a great dad, but there are some things that his employees said about him after he died. But before I get to that, I just want to give you an idea of, just a short story of why he was so beloved by his family and absolutely his employees. In 1841, not that long after he bought the company, Australia got into a huge depression. A lot of prices of commodities were down. A lot of people were laid off. And so while he tried to raise revenue, he told people that he would have to lower the wages of his employees. Now, obviously, in the middle of a depression, they weren’t happy. He basically told them, I have nothing but sympathy for what you’ve gone through.

Warwick F:
The price of bread and board is rising and there are mouths to feed at home. We wouldn’t suggest this under normal times, but these aren’t normal times. Unless we drain, unless we cut costs, both your job and ours will be in great danger. We believe the Sydney Morning Herald can grow and strong. It’d be a great paper and you’ll be proud to be back then, a Herald man. If you accept my proposal, I know in a short while, the depression, we’ll get past this. You’ll have a job and we’ll all do well. He was going to pull out wages pro-rata. It wasn’t like, that the owner gets everything. Basically he said, this is the only way we can weather the storm.

Warwick F:
They thought about it and they agreed. While a lot of other folks who are out of work, they still had jobs, a job is better than no job. And so what is the result of all of this? When he died in 1877, they praised his conscientious desire at the realization of a high ideal. They said that, we feel in his departure, we have lost a kind employer and a valued friend. How many employees say about their boss that he or she was a kind employer and a valued friend? It’s extremely rare. And just in terms of his legacy, picture this, if this was at your funeral. At the church he went to, Pitt Street Congregational Church.

Warwick F:
The pastor chose this text from 2 Samuel, in the King James it goes, Know ye not that there is a prince and a great man fallen this day in Israel? Wouldn’t you like that to be your legacy? Know that today that there was a great man, a great woman this day who has died. If somebody who’s a pastor is going to say that about you in church, they’re probably not going to define being a great man, a woman as how much money you’ve earned or how many titles you have or accolades, it’s probably going to be more because of your character. When I think about somebody being vision and team, the company grew to be 150 year old huge company, but he treated his employees well, and the company grew. It is both end and I think John Fairfax’s legacy is emblematic of really what we’re talking about here.

Gary S:
Not just as an emblematic, but it’s a roadmap. The story that you just told is a roadmap of everything that we’ve just discussed. I want to suggest listener that after I read what I’m about to read, I go through it, you rewind the podcast and listen and see if I’m not right. Because I believe that story that you just told about your great-great-grandfather encompasses all seven points that we’ve just been talking about. One, value your team, John Fairfax did. Two, it’s the mission and your team, right? He kept the team in mind, as well as the mission of having the greatest newspaper that he could have. Check your ego. There’s not a lot of ego in a leader who doesn’t take all the money for himself in hard times, he gives that money. He’s one of the team. He doesn’t put himself above the team.

Gary S:
Focus on the process, not the outcome, that whole letter that you described, he wrote to the team about, we have to take a cut in wages, that is process, not outcome. He suggested an outcome, but he emphasized process was going to get them there. Be willing to apologize, there may not be an apology per se in the midst of what he said, but he certainly, in some ways was apologetic about the fact that he had to cut their-

Warwick F:
He was certainly showing empathy.

Gary S:
Correct. Correct. His demeanor was empathetic and apologetic and I wish I didn’t have to do this. Number six, recalibrate, talk to the team and let them know that moving forward, it must be the vision and the team. He did that in that letter. Seven, I’ve heard you say it Warwick a dozen times, if I’ve heard you say it once, rarely, never have you seen more a businessman for Christ than John Fairfax. John Fairfax, walked the talk. What you just explained in that story emphasized that.

Warwick F:
The other thing since you mentioned that is, on his 50th birthday, his family gave him this huge silver centerpiece, which is still in the family. I’m sure they had to order it from England. They just basically, they admired and loved their dad so much. So sometimes these visionaries they ignore their families on the way up. The vision is so important. He did not. When they talk about the deep respect they, his children had for his character and his unchanging parental love. Talked about affection and esteem, John’s reply was, “Your gift is elegant and costly. Your letter is precious.” The gift was nice, but what mattered more than the gift was the love of his kids. That’s a life well lived when you can receive that kind of love and affection from your family. Doesn’t often happen for successful businessmen and women.

Gary S:
Right. And that’s a businessman who knew the value of balancing vision and mission with team and knew how to carry that out. To help listeners know where to move next. One of the things that you do in every blog you write, is that the end, you have questions for reflection. I thought we’d leave listeners this week with what I thought was a great first suggestion that goes in line with what you say all the time about, what’s one small step you can take? You say the first reflection question in your blog is, assess the state of your team. Are they committed to the vision and eager for the journey ahead? Or do they seem disheartened and ready to check out?

Gary S:
You talk also in the book, Crucible Leadership, out October 19th, you talk in the book about doing 360 evaluations and asking people who work for you, how you’re doing. Talk to the listener a little bit about if they take this first step, why is it important to assess where the team’s at and then move forward?

Warwick F:
Well, you certainly got to check your ego at the door. You’ve got to be willing to ask, what do you think of the vision? Well, you ask that question, they might say, well, I think it’s dumb. But you got to be willing to ask that. How do you feel about it? How do you feel your role is? Are you excited about it? They might say, I don’t know. It depends how much damage you’ve done, it might take a while to create a place where they feel it’s safe to be heard. But certainly 360s can be part of that. The wise leader, and 360 is basically meaning the people above you, people who are your peers and people who are below you. And so depending on where you are in the management chain, the smart leaders listen to that.

Warwick F:
Because if everybody around you says, Joe or Mary, they’re impatient, impulsive, and don’t know how to listen, they could all be wrong, but they’re probably not. Perception is reality. If everybody around you has a certain perception, the wise leader says it must be right, no matter what I think. Perception is reality. If everybody thinks I’m this hot headed person that never listens, I probably am. So then try and figure out what you can do different. This can definitely work if you’re willing to be humble enough to listen and really listen. And that can be a challenge frankly for many leaders. 360 degree feedback is useless if a leader will say, I know who that is. They never liked me. Even though it’s meant to be anonymous, I’ve seen that. It’s very discouraging. Assess the state of your team, but check that your ego at the door before you do that.

Gary S:
And that I’ve learned through decades in the communication businesses, when the plane lands and the final word has been spoken on a subject. Listener, thank you for spending time with us on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. As always Warwick and I would ask, visit crucibleleadership.com, poke around. There’s some great resources there. You can learn more about the book there when you go visit. I’m going to put that stake in the ground and say, that’s going to be already up on the website by the time this podcast comes out. If I’m wrong, it’ll be there soon, but I don’t think I’ll be wrong. I think it will be there for you. Remember until the next time that we’re together listener, a crucible experience can be painful. We know it is painful. Warwick has gone through them.

Gary S:
He’s talked about them often. I’ve gone through them. You’ve gone through them. Your failures and setbacks can be soul crushing in some cases, very painful. But remember this, your crucible experiences are not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons from them, if you apply those lessons moving forward, one step at a time. If you take that view of not the destination right now, but the journey. If you walk that journey with the lessons you learned from your crucible, the chapter that you’re writing can be the most rewarding and memorable chapter of your life, because where it leads you is to a life of significance.

Accomplishing a vision is not easy. Accomplishing a great and noble vision is harder still. When you have a vision that you feel so passionate about that you would give your life to, failure is not an option. Too many people are depending on you. It could be your customers or your shareholders. If you are leading a non-profit, there could be those that are in dire need for the care that your organization can give them. How can you disappoint such people?

When the stakes are highest, when the cause of the mission seems vital, ironically that’s where people can be most at risk and most vulnerable. How can that be? There is a saying, “The path to hell is paved with good intentions.” In our desire to accomplish a worthy mission, sometimes people can be the casualty. We can be short with them. If they aren’t meeting our expectations, we sideline them or get rid of them. We expect people to work long hours. The standard is perfection. Anything less is just not good enough. Don’t they realize that in some cases, for instance with a worthy nonprofit, that lives are at stake? We don’t have time to mollycoddle our team. They will have to shape up, or find work elsewhere. This cause, this crusade, is too important.

Ironically, crucible leaders, those men and women who have come out of the ashes of a crucible experience, can be most at risk. Often a crucible leader’s vision is formed from what he or she went through in a crucible. Crucible leaders may not want anyone to suffer the way they suffered. They can have almost a missional zeal to accomplish their vision. Zeal is good, but beware a zeal that tramples people on the way.

There is a Scripture in Mark that says, “What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?” This has a particular context in the Bible, but more broadly the point here is that what good is it if we accomplish our mission at the expense of trampling on our team, the people who work with us?

Here are some thoughts on balancing the task, the mission, and the people who help you carry it out.

1. Value your team.

No vision, no matter how important it is, is worth sacrificing your team. That does not mean putting up with people who don’t buy into your vision, are not working hard, and are a poor fit for the position they are in. Yes, you want a committed team who are as passionate as you are about the vision. But it is dangerous to say, “Victory at all costs!” Trampling on people to accomplish your vision is not worth it.

2. It is the mission and your team.

Both are important. Bryan Price, a West Point graduate, former army officer and currently the director of the Buccino Institute at Seton Hall University, told me this philosophy from the U.S. military: “Mission first, people always.” As leaders we have to balance achieving the mission and making our visions reality, with caring for our people. It is a both, and. It must be a both, and. Ironically, if we value our team, listen to them and care for them, the chance of our vision becoming a reality is greater not less. If you care about your vision, care about your people.

3. Check your ego.

Sometimes achieving our vision can be wrapped up in our ego. We want redemption, we want retribution. We want success or achievement. We want self-respect. If our motivation is colored by such emotions, it can lead us to treat people in ways we would not want to treat them; and frankly we may end up treating people in ways that go against our fundamental beliefs and values.

4. Focus on the process, not the outcome.

If you have a clear vision, a well thought-out strategy and a great team, focus on what you have to do today, this week, this month. You cannot control the results, however much you try, and however much you feel that the success of your mission is vital. You may well believe that your vision has to become reality, that so many people are depending on this. But in life, much is beyond our control. We can’t control the economy, or what the competition does, or the impact of shifts in government policy or what potential consumers or users’ value. If we have done our best with a clear vision, a great strategy and a fantastic team, that has to be enough.

5. Be willing to apologize.

Sometimes we get so passionate about our vision that it can be easy to get short with people and trample on them in our zeal to accomplish the vision. We are all human. When we misstep, as we all inevitably will, that is when we need to apologize and help people understand that in our passion for the vision we sometimes get carried away. If you have a team that is also passionate about the vision, they will understand.

6. Talk to your team and let them know that moving forward it must be the vision and the team.

You want to hear their perspective. Let them know that their opinions do matter. Create a safe place where people feel heard and can share their opinions.

7. Walk the talk.

Great speeches about the mission, unity and teamwork are all good. But you have to live your message. You have to almost daily tell yourself to let go and not hold on too tightly. There is a phrase, “Let go and let God.” More broadly, this means doing our best, but not wrapping up our self-worth in the outcome. Trust to God, fate or the universe, that if we and our team are doing their best, that what is meant to happen will happen.

Your vision matters. It may have emerged from the ashes of a soul-crushing crucible that you have come out of. You genuinely want to make a difference in the world. You want to help people. But if in trying to help people, you run over them, is it all really worth it? The answer is no.

By striving for a noble vision and caring for your team along the way, the journey towards achieving your vision will be worth it. If you are hoping for a life of significance, a life on purpose that is dedicated to serving others, a life that will bring you joy and fulfillment, a life that will give you a legacy that you and those that love you can be proud of, then be as committed to your team as you are to your vision.

Reflection

Assess the state of your team. Are they committed to the vision and eager for the journey ahead, or do they seem disheartened and ready to check out?
Have some honest conversations with your team. Let them know that they are just as important as achieving the vision, no matter how noble you and they feel the vision is.
Walk the talk. Check your ego at the door. Let go of the outcome. “Let go and let God.”

7 STEPS TO LEAD THROUGH A CRISIS

To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

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Despite being born with small hands and shortened ligaments that left him unable to even hold a cup as a boy, Wael Farouk has diligently – some would say miraculously — carved out a career as a celebrated concert pianist. This spring, in fact, he performed Rachmaninoff’s piano concerti Nos. 1, 2 and 3 in one evening — the first time the prodigious musical feat has been done. Farouk lives and works in Wisconsin, where he is an assistant professor of piano and director of the Keyboard Studies at Carthage College in Kenosha. In this conversation with Warwick, Farouk explains how he has embraced his physical limitations, and endured the crucible of religious persecution as a Coptic Christian in his native Egypt, because of his strong belief that it is through what he calls “rough waters” that he improves and progresses.

To learn more about Wael Farouk, visit www.waelfarouk.com. To purchase tickets to a streaming recording of his Rachmaninoff performance, visit https://www.atthemac.org/events/np-rachmaninoff/

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

—

👉 Don’t forget to subscribe for more leadership and personal growth insights: https://www.youtube.com/@beyondthecrucible

👉 Follow Beyond the Crucible on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beyondthecrucible

👉 Follow Warwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/warwickfairfax/

👉 Follow Beyond the Crucible on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beyondthecrucible

Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Wael F:
I placed the highest in terms of those entrance exams, but because of my hand size, the Dean of the conservatory, who was an excellent pianist told my father, “There is not even a 1% chance in heaven that your son will be a pianist. These hands are not meant for the piano. You are going to destroy him psychologically, physically. This is not for him. He should be a doctor, he should be a lawyer, should be something else, but definitely not that.”

Gary S:
Those are crushing words for anyone to hear as they pursue their passion and their gifting. Imagine what they could have done to our guest this week, who was just eight years old when they were spoken to him. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership.

Gary S:
Thankfully for lovers of classical music, Wael Farouk did not take that assessment of his potential to heart. Despite being born with small hands and shortened ligaments that left him unable to even hold a cup as a boy, he has diligently, some would say, miraculously carved out a career as a celebrated concert pianist. In fact, Warwick interviewed him on the eve of the most challenging performance of his career, presenting Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concerto numbers, one, two and three in a single evening.

Gary S:
As you’ll hear from their discussion, Wael has embraced his physical limitations and endured the crucible of religious persecution as a Coptic Christian in his native Egypt, because of his strong belief that it is through what he calls, rough waters that he improves and progresses.

Warwick F:
Wael, thank you so much for being here. Just to have somebody of your, I don’t know what… Maybe passion, and love, and talent for playing music and just bringing music to future generations or current generations and future generations. It’s really a gift that you have and that you’re giving. But I’d like to go back to, you were born in Egypt, I understand, and from a Coptic Christian family.

Warwick F:
Talk a bit about growing up because I’m sure life is not easy growing up in that environment, but it was particularly challenging for you because you had some physical challenges from birth. You’ve had challenges that other kids you knew didn’t have that you played with. So talk a bit about growing up in Egypt and just some of those challenges in the environment that you had.

Wael F:
Sure, I’d be happy to. As you mentioned, I was born and grew up a Coptic Christian in Egypt. It is not the easiest environment let’s say, to grow up and being a Christian, especially in the ’80s. However, both my parents who grew up in the ’40s and ’50s had even more challenges if you could imagine. But without that kind of challenges, I was born with very unusual eyes and hands situations that it took literally years and decades for me to understand and for my parents to understand what are they.

Wael F:
For example, my hands were very, very unusually small. I have very short finger ligaments, till this day, I am unable to make a fist. It’s challenging for me to do some buttons and to open jars and stuff like that. It took me several years to be able to put on my own contact lenses because before that, due to my eye condition, I used to wear those, what do you call them? Coke bottles bottom. Very, very, very thick glasses right –

Warwick F:
Right.

Wael F:
In regards to my eyes, I was born with my both inner lenses are completely detached from their holding case. And they are actually shifted, they are tilted. And the ligaments holding them are very… The medical term that I was given by my ophthalmologist, they are practically torn, so they’re not really there. So bending down, running, skipping, jumping is off of the table. I am one of the few lucky people that their doctor told them, “You should never exercise,” because of that.

Wael F:
However, again, growing up in Egypt in the ’80s, it was in a way difficult to place or to really understand and unravel all of these issues. I seem like a normal child, yes. Small in build and in size, but the hand situation is really what I am thankful for, it got me where I am today. Because around two-and-a-half years old, when my parents really realized that I am an unable to use my hands on any level, unable to hold bottles, cups, spoons, et cetera, and not realizing my poor eyesight, I wasn’t even seeing where I’m dropping things.

Wael F:
So my dad took me to a physician a little bit before my third birthday and saying, “He cannot really use his hands, is there something that can be done?” The fourth and fifth fingers on both hands are quite curved, not really straight. And a wise old doctor said, “You absolutely leave him alone. You don’t do anything to those hands. Let him practice it somehow, get him a rubber ball, get him a toy where it’s involves a lot of pulling and grabbing, that type of thing. Let there be no injections, no surgeries, just let it be natural. He’s born like that for a reason and let it be.”

Wael F:
Luckily my dad, both my parents really knew nothing about music, nothing about classical music per se, because it is not the most popular language in Egypt as you can imagine. He got me for my third birthday a teeny tiny toy piano. He thought, all right, here is something for his hand to use, here is something for… He doesn’t have to carry, he doesn’t have to drop it, et cetera. So since the age of three, that little toy piano became my best friend, my companion in a way.

Wael F:
Fast forward, then a little bit by the age of five, I started playing at churches because I was in a way able to play tunes that I could hear on the radio or on TV. We were devoted church goers, so I always had hymns and Coptic chants on my head, so I was able to play that on the keyboard, no problem. And of course, I got promoted a little bit, so I ended up getting a bigger keyboard on my fourth birthday, and then a bigger one on my fifth birthday, et cetera.

Wael F:
By the age I was six, I was playing regularly for the Coptic pope weekly services in the main cathedral, which is a big deal in many ways, because in the Coptic church they don’t really allow instrumental music. It is very monophonic, it is very just only human voices and that’s it. So being really the only person who’s allowed to play an instrument and a digital instrument that is, was quite something back then.

Wael F:
Anyway, that was my early experience with music. And by six or seven, I had to get those very, very, very thick glasses that in a way prevented me from being outside playing, but I still was very happy, content, practicing my music. By the age of eight, several people who heard me and that my father had said, “He should be really studying seriously because there is something there and he can have a future in music. You should take him to this place that’s called The Conservatory and he should enroll there and sure.”

Wael F:
Anyway, my dad took me there one day and we learned that there is something called entrance exams, and then there is a panel, and you have to… They test your ear, and if you have a good musical pitch, et cetera, they look at your hand, et cetera. So I placed highest in terms of those entrance exams, but because of my hand size, the Dean of The Conservatory, who was an excellent pianist told my father, “There is not even a 1% chance in heaven that your son will be a pianist. These hands are not meant for the piano.

Wael F:
You are going to destroy him psychologically, physically. This is not for him. He should be a doctor, he should be a lawyer, he should be something else, but definitely not that.” My dad who also grew up Coptic Egyptian, but very, very hard work. He was the first in his family to go to college. When he was six, his father left the family of five and my dad worked two jobs when he was in elementary school, supporting the family.

Wael F:
Often going down to the streets, studying under a lamppost because they did not have an electricity. He told the Dean, “If you say his talented, then you should give him a chance.” And that was it in a way. They gave me a three-month trial period, a grace period and they really tried to make those three months very demanding so I would just drop the ball and quit. Basically they expected me to do the work of three years in those three months.

Wael F:
But being stubborn, being encouraged by my dad who has incredible work ethic and life experience, I was able to stay. I graduated with the top marks in the history of the school. And those professors who told my dad, “He will never be a pianist,” they all come to my concerts when I go back to Egypt. Perform annually with the symphony and they’re all very supportive and are comfortable saying, “We are very glad that you proved us wrong.”

Warwick F:
That is a remarkable story. There’s just so many fascinating elements. One of the things, obviously, as you look back, you were given a lot of challenges, but you were also perhaps given a gift in your family, in your parents. Because certainly in many cultures and certainly in days gone by, I think of… Being back in the era of Franklin Roosevelt who had polio, back then it was considered, we’re talking before the ’50s and it was almost shameful.

Warwick F:
If you had polio, somehow it was your fault and you were meant to sit inside and do nothing, and it was just… And so I don’t know about in the culture you grew up in, but sometimes when you have a challenge, rather than helping, it’s like you just need to be quiet, and just be inside, and not really doing anything. I don’t know if that was true in the culture you grew up in, but your parents weren’t like that. Your parents were saying, “No, we will do our level best to help Wael. To help him have a good life.”

Warwick F:
Not every parent would have approached it with the level of determination and encouragement as your parents and your dad did.

Wael F:
Absolutely. And I cannot agree more. I can give you examples from here till next month, but unfortunately we don’t have time. But my parents did not have much money to begin with. They still wanted to make sure that we had the best education, my brother and I. My parents sold items, so they can mortgage a piano for me when I went to the conservatory, which I did not get a piano till my fifth year with… I did not have an instrument to practice at home, which is very unusual.

Wael F:
All the way through, they were extremely supportive, extremely encouraging, extremely… But what I appreciate more now being a parent, that they didn’t try to put me in a bottle. They didn’t shun me from the world and try to overprotect me or over shelter me, which would have had understandable reasons, but what have had also repercussions later on. But they are very supportive, all the way till my mother’s last breath.

Wael F:
She was a very helpful, very encouraging, would not let you that this is causing somebody else’s pain. Never once worried about what I am doing. Never once saying, “What is this classical music stuff? What is this piano thing? Why don’t you just get a job in the government or do whatever.” Used to practice 13, 14, 15 hours a day in my teens, they never disturbed me once. They never bothered me once. They never said, “You should take a break and go watch TV or go to the movies. Or why don’t you have…” None whatsoever.

Wael F:
It was providential and I think without my parents, you summarize this yourself, without my parents, I wouldn’t have been here. And I cannot imagine what other life I would have rather have.

Warwick F:
And you raise such a good point that sometimes when you have these challenges, your parents understandably, they want to protect you, keep you safe, put you in like a little cotton ball or something. Which they might have the best of motives, but that’s not helpful. You want to help people have not a normal life because what’s normal? But live with other people. And I think about that doctor, there’s a lot of doctors that would either have said, “Oh, there’s no hope. Or we’re got to do all the surgery,”

Warwick F:
But yet you’ve had a doctor that was wise enough to say, “You know what? Don’t touch him. No injections, let him be. Let him use the hands.” That also was providential. Right? You could have had other doctors that would have done, I don’t know, maybe terrible things.

Wael F:
Absolutely. Both him and my other eye doctor, they didn’t really have, again, the latest x-ray technology, they didn’t run tests. They didn’t use me as a study case, they didn’t whatever. Again, I was three, so I barely remember the incident. With my ophthalmologist whom I saw a few years later, I remember a little more of that. But as you said, there are incidents in your life that you go back and you say, “I’m really, really thankful for that.”

Wael F:
And speaking of which, ironically, almost 10 days ago, I got an email from the president of the American Association of Hand Surgeons who said, “I read an article about you and I got to hear some of your recordings. And by the way, Rachmaninoff happens to be my favorite composer as well. May we invite you to be our featured guest speaker in our annual conference in California so you can speak to the hand surgeons and they can… They probably have couple of questions for you. So they promise, we’re not going to do anything for your hands, just look at that and just ask you a few questions.” Kind of a funny coincidence.

Warwick F:
I suppose they’d be tempting to say, “Look, I respect what you do, but don’t be too quick to operate.”

Wael F:
Right. Exactly.

Warwick F:
I guess another question I have is, again, obviously it’s providential that your dad could’ve said, “Okay, a little rubber ball. Okay, that’d be good. Just throw it up against the wall and your room and hand-eye coordination,” or I don’t know quite what, but somehow he picked a piano. And what was it? Because very often as you would know better than me, if you’re musical, there’s a history of music in your family. I don’t know, it’s not always, but it’s so often the case.

Warwick F:
Whether it’s genetic, or cultural, or both, but in your case, there weren’t other examples of that. So talk about from age three through five, what about the piano and music just fascinated you so much so that from there or through the teens, you were playing 12, 14 hours a day. What about music, the piano just captured your heart, if you will?

Wael F:
That’s an excellent question. I think my parents, my dad, especially always loved music and wanted to study music himself, but instead he ended up in the military and getting a degree in accountant. It’s interesting, with music specially or any form of arts that one specializes in from a young age, you see all of those angles of life as if you are going on a merry-go-round in a way.

Wael F:
And it all centers around this subject, but however, during different stages in your life, your relationship with it, not necessarily change, but the frame of it really change. Between three and five, that was my hobby, that was my play time. That’s what I just did. From five to eight, it became more exposure period, if you will. I was playing on TV almost every week, I played in almost all of the churches in Cairo, which there are a lot of churches.

Wael F:
And when I started studying at The Conservatory, I realized, again, thanks to another wonderful parent, if you will. One of my teachers who really told me the fact early on. He said, “Listen, you have a disadvantage with your hands, but if you want to be a professional pianist, this is a serious job. You need to work eight to nine hours a day, just like your dad goes to work eight to nine hours a day. This is not a funny business. This is not a hobby.”

Wael F:
Obviously he was very serious. He was Russian and he was really one of the best teachers in the world. And I am thankful for that, because not only he gave me the facts straight, but he said, “It’s very difficult to be a pianist here, listen to this we’re recording.” And that recording was Rachmaninoff Third Piano Centerto. And then I listened to it and then the next day I was just a different person. I went to him, I said, “I have to play that piece one day.”

Wael F:
This is when I was 13 or so and he said, “No way in heaven. I am twice as big as you are, my hands are three times bigger than you. I still don’t have the courage to play a piece like that.” And again, being stubborn being not bothering much with somebody telling you what you can or cannot do. That’s when I worked my tails off for 14, 15 hours a day and three or four years later here I am playing, that was Cairo Symphony, first Egyptian.

Wael F:
And that piece, it still runs in my life till now, till next week, as you know about this big project we are doing. And if it wasn’t for Rachmaninoff piece that was the hardest, really the Mount Everest of the repertoire, again, I would probably then continue to be a pianist. I wouldn’t be where I am today. I didn’t find the urge of provoking success from yourself. And I think that’s one of the things that you and Gary mentioned in your introduction, these challenges, these difficulties, these crucibles, they are there because really we need them in many ways.

Wael F:
They provoke success in you, they teach you more about yourself. They teach you more about life. And if there are closed doors, they direct you to the open doors, which ultimately end up being the right one for you. And some people have the concept or at least the naive hope that once they experience one or two difficulties in life, that’s it, and then your career is set, your path is set, and then you are on smooth water for… It’s absolutely not.

Wael F:
There are certain things that gives you the challenge, and gives you the option, and give you the choice. Whether you let them define you and to be, I don’t want to say a victim of, because I don’t use this word lightly to be just a reactionary in your life, in your decisions, in what to choose to do, what you choose to represent, in what you choose your life’s work to be about. Or you can make it work for what you want to accomplish and you find it as an opportunity.

Wael F:
And it also teaches you to be grateful because without having sufferings, without having challenges, if you are handed everything so easily, so effortlessly, the concept of being grateful, the concept of responsibility, the concept of working hard, even harder to protect what you gained and what you achieved, I don’t think it crystallizes that as much.

Warwick F:
You said so many profound things there, hard to know where to start, but yeah, it’s almost without the darkness, you don’t appreciate the light. Without the challenges in life, it’s hard to be grateful if life is always perfect. Some young people have been through some challenges, I know you teach in Carthage College, but there’ll be some people that grew up in great families. They’re not particularly poor and everything’s fine. Maybe life isn’t tough right now, but it will be, nobody goes through life without any challenges.

Warwick F:
But just so many things that are remarkable about your story and that it’s hard. Nobody thinks of a crucible as a gift, but sometimes there can be a gift amidst the pain, nobody wants those. But when you think about it, if you had the same physical attributes as a lot of your friends, maybe would have played soccer or thrown a ball, or who knows? Or become a doctor, a lawyer, which nothing wrong with that, that’s an honorable profession.

Warwick F:
But when there’s so many things that you can’t do, whether it’s physically or worried about detached retina, it’s like, “What can I do?” It’s pretty limited right there. Right? I have this piano and I can do that well and it gives me joy. Sometimes narrowing the options is a blessing amidst the pain. Does that make sense? You wouldn’t have designed your life that way, but yet if you’d had all these other choices, maybe you never would have played the piano. Right?

Wael F:
Absolutely. Rocks directs water and determines in a way where the current is going, where the… but also river carves its own way. And even though sometimes you try to reverse its directions, it doesn’t always go your way. But I am a firm believer that because of my faith, not only again, thanks to my family, but to where I am today and some of the incidents that both my family and I were experiencing over the past few years.

Wael F:
It brings some comfort at least that there is a pattern in one’s life that despite challenges, despite, you won’t call it persecution, oppression, this or that, you know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You know that challenges make you stronger, they make you learn about yourself. And I think it is a gift for anybody who is a teacher, because it’s one thing to teach information, to teach digits, to teach… You play the right notes, you play the right rhythm. You read the style of Baroque or classical. This is all peanuts. This is all peanuts.

Wael F:
What you teach about life is really what makes or breaks a person and we need more and more of that.

Gary S:
I want to jump in at this point, if I can and do a couple of things. One, the story that you referred to that kicked off some of the media coverage that you’ve been giving is in the local newspaper, the Kenosha News. And I’m just going to take this opportunity to say to listeners, who’ve heard us talk to at least four people from Australia like Warwick that Wael and I both live in Kenosha, Wisconsin. So I was thrilled when I read his story in the local newspaper one Saturday morning.

Gary S:
I got ahold of Warwick immediate and said, “This gentlemen will be fantastic for our podcast.” But one of the things, Wael that you said in that story, goes along with what you were just talking about. And also gets to the other source of strength that you found. And you said this in that story, “When my parents realized my hand disabilities and later learned when I was seven that I have very severe disability with my eyes and vision, they always prayed and told me that they trusted that God had a very good reason why He made me like this and I am in His hands.

Gary S:
My family and my faith taught me that God will never allow evil to hurt me, and that everything will be for my good and for His glory.” That’s part of your perspective, your faith informs your perspective that these things that are crucibles are meant not for evil, but for good in your life.

Wael F:
Absolutely, and I am so glad that you brought this up. Psalm 23, for example that I tried to build my life on. I think over and over again, because we are doubtful and we also forget quickly. And we are very sensitive to negative experiences, and we are very sensitive to these challenges and sufferings. But remembering, as I was saying earlier, remembering that there is a pattern, remembering that you will always be delivered.

Wael F:
And remembering that gold is tested with fire and you are more refined at the end is something I look forward to. And if I may read you a small verse from probably my favorite hymn, if that’s okay. I think it will-

Warwick F:
Yes please.

Wael F:
… encapsulate what I’m trying more accurately. Says, “Make me a captive, Lord and then I shall be free; force me to render up my sword, and I shall conqueror be. I sink in life’s alarms when by myself I stand. Imprison me within Thine arms and strong shall be my hand.”

Warwick F:
What hymn was that?

Wael F:
It’s an old from the Presbyterian cannon. I’m happy to share with you the entire link later.

Warwick F:
No, that’s awesome. It’s funny, I think also of Joseph’s story that obviously you can probably identify with him. He went to Egypt and suffered persecution there and there’s this great line, I think it’s in Genesis 50, which I know you’re very familiar with is, he talks about, “They meant it for evil and God meant it for good.” And for the listeners who may not be familiar with the story, Joseph was a little bit arrogant, but full of himself when he was young and his brothers got a bit jealous, threw him in a pit and eventually sold him into slavery.

Warwick F:
And he was falsely accused in Egypt of doing things he didn’t, but eventually he found favor with the Pharaoh and life turned around. But he could have been angry and bitter when he met his brothers for what they did, which was sometimes we don’t fully appreciate what the Bible says. It’s a horrific thing to be sold into slavery at all, but by your family? It’s just unthinkable. But yet he wasn’t bitter and angry. That’s amazing to me.

Warwick F:
So as I look at some of the things you’ve been through, I sense both with you and your family, I’m guessing there wasn’t a whole lot of bitterness. You haven’t gone into detail, but I know I’m sure life for Coptic Christians in Egypt and even today, you read about over the last several years, bombings, and persecution, and sadly human beings’ intolerance towards each other. It’s hard to fathom or understand, but it’s somewhat universal, but yet I don’t sense a whole lot of bitterness.

Warwick F:
I may be wrong, as I often say, there’s a difference between condoning and forgiving. You can condemn and not condone and hope that justice will prevail at the same time and not let bitterness destroy you. If that makes sense.

Wael F:
Absolutely. And I very much would like to clarify as I did in the Kenosha article that since 2014, this picture is radically changing. The current president who’s been very, very good to Christians, probably the first in the history of this country that went through so much. Christians now are being, not only respected and protected, and they’re asked their input in the constitution. And your religion is no longer required to be listed in your ID or in things like that.

Wael F:
However, the theme I decided to give this project, which I’m happy to call it probably the most important concert I am about to give both artistically, humanly and personally. Because these recent events that happened in my life, it actually did not have to do much with Egypt, but it has to do much with my experience being here in the States. It brings a familiarity in because you are treated based on what you represent, or whom you are, or where are you from rather than your work.

Wael F:
Which of course, the United States always represented for me and my family, this shelter, this sanctuary. And what is written under Statue of Liberty is something, to be honest, I thought I would never experience here in this again, great country that I am proud to call my adopted country. But it was surprising in a way, it was shocking, I could say. It was unexpected, but at the same time being in it for three, four, five years now, I am reminded of a familiar tune, if you will.

Wael F:
I am hopeful as I was guided through many, many complicated path in my earlier life that this also will prevail and things will end up positively and will end up both for me and for what I represent in the right way.

Warwick F:
Obviously to whatever level you’re comfortable with, just help us understand a little bit about some of these more recent challenges.

Wael F:
Sure. As you know and I would like to share this with our listeners, the concert that I am giving next week on April 8th, we’re playing three Rachmaninoff Concerti in one evening numbers, one, two, and three. And number three alone, I mentioned a little bit of my background, but number three alone is undisputedly nicknamed as the Mount Everest of the piano literature. So to play this one on its own is already nerve-wracking enough, but to play also the other two musical mountains, the first and the second piano concerto right before that is really an experience that first of all is unprecedented and an experience for me that I’ll never forget.

Wael F:
But I wanted to tie this into a theme of not only what I was going through personally, but also what the country seems to be going through lately. The three musical mountains to overcoming three social injustices; persecution, oppression, and discrimination. I am comfortable sharing few backgrounds, few details. In terms of-

Gary S:
Can I jump in because I don’t want to interrupt you when you get into that, but I want listeners to understand, you probably got really sad when Wael said April 8th and you’re like, this isn’t airing until after that, I can’t hear it. Yes, you can. Look at the show notes. This will be on a live stream link that you can listen to up until June 15th. So you will have the chance to hear his performance.

Gary S:
So please don’t be saddened by the fact that as we’re recording this, he is yet to perform, he will perform, it will be online, you can see it then. I just wanted to make sure that people knew that so they didn’t miss it.

Wael F:
Thank you so much for clarifying that. I appreciate that.

Gary S:
In fact, through the miracle of post-production editing, we’re going to give you a very slight snippet of Wael’s virtuosity right now. Here’s a short clip of his performance of Rachmaninoff’s Concerto with the new Philharmonic orchestra from Illinois College of DuPage

Wael F:
I grew up expected in Egypt that I would be persecuted for being a Christian. I would have opportunities taken away from me, even though you earned them. You expected that you will be bullied, that you’ll even be failed and to have somebody else who was not a Coptic Christian that should be in the lead rather than whatever. Your work is trying to be obstructed, blocking your foreign tours just because, why should you get them because you deserve them? Something like that.

Wael F:
All of this was expected. However, this is not really expected here, and definitely not because of what you represent in terms of standing up for what you believe is correct, for standing up against those who abuse their powers. And standing up against those who bully you and those who discriminate you, and openly treat you differently just because you are from a different part of the world or because of what you believe in, or because you’re your work, or because your work speaks for itself.

Wael F:
And because you are not only successful in what you do, but that in a way could shine bad light on what they do or in terms of… I don’t want to draw a comparison, but discrimination or oppression really has no logic. So you don’t really need anything to logically trigger these actions, these decisions. I persevered, I am still being patient and still going through the right channels. My wife’s support’s is immense, my family support is immense.

Wael F:
There are difficult moments, a lot of hurt both physically, mentally, emotionally, but you know these scars are also going to be good for the future and you get over them one way or another with time, with therapy, with whatever it is. It is a battle I am happy to have, especially where it comes to defining who you are and what you represent or what you want your work to be about.

Wael F:
With that, I decided that will be fitting, and again, providential that this is the one concert that was not canceled due to the virus, due the pandemic. The Rachmaninoff mountain concert, and this seemed to be quite fitting to give it that theme.

Warwick F:
Just so listeners understand a little bit, and again, I know you probably don’t want them to get into every detail, but is it discrimination based on that you’re Egyptian, from the Middle East? People make certain assumptions about everybody from the Middle East believes a certain way. Is that kind of, you look different, they assume you believe different, is it that kind of territory or?

Wael F:
It’s all of that. Exactly.

Warwick F:
Everybody from the Middle East must be evil or that kind of mentality.

Wael F:
Yeah. And recent events, especially that happened in our own backyard in Kenosha in July also really was an alarming wake up call in a way that we need to be careful and we need to be how… Not that we need to be careful how labeling people could make us really pay dearly down the road. And sometimes we are too polite even to defend ourselves, or to correct somebody’s misassumptions, or just asking questions back, or really, for a lack of a better word, defending oneself that could be viewed or skewed as being aggressive or as being irrational, or as being whatever.

Wael F:
But if clarification or seeking truth becomes secondary to anything, we will pay dearly. And they’re not just talking about those who are in certain minorities. If history taught us anything, just a little bit of drifting from the right paths will cost us dearly. So I am glad that again, this has been put in my life. I don’t understand those reasons right now, but as my faith has taught me, as past experiences has taught me, I’m sure it’s for the good. I’m sure it will also help me be a stronger, I will understand myself better.

Wael F:
I think the crucibles in my childhood brought me where I am today. The crucibles I’m facing right now will kind of determine where to go from here.

Warwick F:
It sounds like you approaching it with courage and conviction. It’s hard to understand why intolerance, hatred because of differences. It’s hard to understand where that come from. From a faith perspective, I guess there’s a lot of darkness in the soul of humanity, but it’s always hard to understand, I have to say. But it’s been a reality, certainly in our current times and before. So thank you for sharing that.

Warwick F:
Talk a bit about this concert. I love how you’re combining both your love for music, as well as to stand up for justice against discrimination, oppression, and persecution. One of the other things I wanted to come back to is, when somebody says to you, Wael, “Oh, that’s impossible. You can’t do it. Don’t even try, give up.” That’s almost like now that you’ve said that, then I have to try it. Right?

Warwick F:
It’s like, somewhere, I think I read that Rachmaninoff was, I don’t know what 6’3, 6’6, a massive size, and massive wingspan, and probably huge hands. And so it’s fine for him to write concertos that he can play, but what about the rest of humanity? I guess he didn’t really care about that. “I’m good. I can play my own music,” but you would take on something that music teachers said, “Give it up, Wael, you’ll never do it.” But yet it’s almost like this challenge that’s…

Warwick F:
Talk about, why when somebody says it’s impossible for you, Wael, why that becomes like this lightning rod, this challenge, this rallying cry? Here we go, let’s go for it. How does that happen for you?

Wael F:
Sure I haven’t been asked this before, so it will take me a little bit to get there. I’m happy to answer it, it’s a great question. I think I need to answer this question to verbalize it for myself. But to touch quickly about what you just said about what goes on and what we can not really understand why things happen, and darkness in humanity, et cetera, but the theme of your show.

Wael F:
And I like the thing that this is the theme of my life too, that I know that good will prevail, no matter what, good will prevail. If history has taught us anything over, and over, and over, and over again, good will prevail. And those who do think that they have a green light to abuse, discriminate, just don’t overestimate your dark powers. And for those who go through similar times as I am and as many others, don’t underestimate your strengths and your power and the power of God, because if you have God on your side, that’s it.

Wael F:
And I know it may feel as an over-simplification, but this is not at all. And whether we choose, acknowledge it or discuss it, but it seems to be the theme of humanity. That’s why all of the movies almost is about either good or evil and which one we’ll thrive at the end. I just wanted to throw that in there. But now back to your question. Of course, when I was young or recently when I decided to take on these projects, to take on these massive programming, it is not at all that I want to try to prove anything.

Wael F:
Because if there is anything to be proven, it’s just for oneself. Because at the end of the day, when you put your head down to sleep, it’s your conscience, artistic or personal or human or moral, that’s what counts. That’s what will keep you awake at night or that’s what we’ll give you peace of mind. When I am told, for example, when I was young, “You cannot really do this. You cannot play Rachmaninoff’s third, you can never be a pianist.” I don’t read the future. None of us can.

Wael F:
And of course, these are experts that I respect and admire, but at the same time, I guess what processes into my head, which I believe is your question is, all right. Don’t seal my fate yet. Let’s take a look at this. Give me an opportunity, give me a chance. And no matter how long it will take, if this doesn’t really work, it will be folly of me to lie to myself, because this is the worst kind of lie, when you lie to yourself.

Wael F:
So let me have a run with this. Let me try, let me close the door on myself for a year, or two, or three, or four. Let me give up what I like to give up happily to practice and to sit down and memorize all of these works and all of these notes and let’s see. And if I cannot do that, I will tell you. If I cannot do that to share it with public, with hundreds and thousands of people, at least I have had a wonderful journey of discovery that I really cannot do that.

Wael F:
Knowing your limitation is a blessing, is often more important than knowing what you’re able to do. But so far, I think I haven’t had that wall… I haven’t ran into a wall, I guess that I could not take down. And if that teaches me anything, when you have faith, when you have courage, when you know what you’re doing. When it’s not just naive, empty statements, and when you work hard, and this is the one thing I really learned from Rachmaninoff or from Beethoven or from Chopin.

Wael F:
Because those people, those people worked extremely hard under incredible circumstances. If you look up Beethoven, Beethoven could have stopped 25 years earlier than when he died, when his hearing was already going out. He still wrote, this is my duty to my art. This is my duty to my fellow man, to keep working, to keep writing. The poor man was suffering. He was deaf. At the end of his life, God knows what kind of all sorts of stomach cancer he was dealing with.

Wael F:
His stomach was basically cut open for three months because of all the infections, all of the lead poisoning, all of the horrible things that he was going through. He was still working to the last breath. And if those people could do that, who am I to give up so quickly?

Warwick F:
You’re offering… I want to touch on this briefly here in a moment because you teach at Carthage College. In addition to teaching music, there’s a lot of life lessons you can offer students, and current musicians, future pianists, and talented folks. But just that sense of not giving up, I’m reminded of somebody, very different circumstances we had on the podcast, a woman, Lisa Blair, who is an Australian woman who sailed around Antarctica in a sailboat.

Warwick F:
This is like the worst oceans in the world. Massive storms, as she would say, she’s like 5’2, not particularly physically adept in terms, she’s not like six foot, some massively strong. She thinks of herself as not very special, but she has a very special attitude. That’s really her superpower, it’s not her physical stature. And she defines failure the way you do, which is failure is not trying.

Warwick F:
So long as I’m giving it my all, I’m giving it my level best, then that’s not failure. And that’s something that young people, just what you said, really need to understand. So often, you know what they say, “It’s better to have tried and failed and never to have tried.” Maybe you’ll fail, but you’ll certainly fail if you don’t try.

Wael F:
Absolutely.

Warwick F:
I’m sure you’ve probably given that message a million times to young people. And sometimes you’ll fail, but sometimes you won’t. And it’s like, what if I fail? The response is, but what if you don’t?

Wael F:
Right.

Warwick F:
And even if you do, so what?

Wael F:
Right.

Warwick F:
Right?

Wael F:
Exactly. It doesn’t define you. And if you are going into life expecting that it will be a Disney movie, perfect, then it’s better really to wake up. Even in Disney, there are some hard times. And my best word of advice that really comes to mind when Edison says, “I didn’t fail 2,000 times to make a light bulb work, I found 2,000 ways not to make a light bulb work.” Because knowing what not to do is extremely helpful.

Warwick F:
And that’s a very, I love that you bring that up. People often think, somebody in Hollywood or a pianist, they were an overnight success. There’s no such thing, in most cases. Edison’s a great example. In a lot of the creative arts, and you would know much better than I would about composers, but typically as you’ve described with Beethoven or Mozart, there’s hours and hours, and years and years of intense work that leads to what we might think is some of the greatest masterpieces of music ever written.

Warwick F:
Greatness typically doesn’t happen easily. You got to have some talent, but it requires a massive amount of hard work.

Wael F:
Exactly. And the other quote that I really love is from Beethoven, who said, “I am only 10% talent and 90% hard work.” And like you said, being successful at anything, it just comes with sweat and blood. And another great lesson I learned from my dad, reaching the top of your mountain is comparatively easy, by staying on the top of your mountain. So it’s not, once you accomplished something you are done and you leave, and that’s it.

Wael F:
And I think this is part of the challenge, or maybe this is also why I like to keep looking for a new challenge is because feeling that, okay, I already did that, I have nothing else to do. Then you’re kind of emotionally dead, or you’re kind of intellectually dead. Life is still full of so many great things, but this is also the same thing in chess. I was just watching a Bobby Fischer interview and the host is asking him, “What’s now for you? You’re already the champion of the world?”

Wael F:
And he says, “I have to find something to do. I cannot just sit for three years till my game.” And the same with Pushkin, or Dostoyevsky, or Tchaikovsky, or Rachmaninoff, or Beethoven, or Bobby Fischer.

Warwick F:
Just talk about, as we begin to close here with Carthage College. Talk-

Gary S:
Yeah, I was going to say, I normally say at this point, “The captain’s turned on the fasten seatbelt signs and it’s about time to land the plane.” The best I have here is that we’re approaching the Coda of the performance of our conversation. Before we do-

Warwick F:
I was going to say, we’re probably coming towards the last movement or something of the piece, or.

Gary S:
Yes. Before we do that and Warwick, asked this question though, Wael, I want to give you the opportunity to let listeners know where they can find you online and find out more about you. So where can they go to find out more about you?

Wael F:
Thank you, Gary. My website waelfarouk.com, W-A-E-L, F as in Frank, A-R-O-U-K.com where I have my past performances, recent performances, calendar of upcoming events. My YouTube channel, again, just writing my name, my website at Carthage College or Roosevelt University.

Gary S:
Fabulous. Thank you.

Warwick F:
Just talk as we close here at Carthage College, you obviously love playing music and just helping people understand the joy of some of these incredible pieces. Whether it’s Rachmaninoff, Chopin, Beethoven, all of the other ones you play, but yet you also teach. Talk about how teaching students at Carthage College gives you joy. What about that? You could just play music, but there’s something about that that clearly you love teaching students about music. What is it about that that you love?

Wael F:
That’s a great question. There are so many nuances here. Teaching is also learning at the same time, because it’s two-way street. Finding, there are certain things that I do naturally and I do instinctively when I play, and certain things perhaps that I didn’t find very much challenging. Certain things I did find challenging, but when you meet with a student who comes from various backgrounds, some come from… They just been taught by fabulous teachers. They have no problems, technically, psychologically, musically.

Wael F:
And some others have deficiencies in one or all of those three areas. And then having to think, first of all, analyze just like a physician when you go and dealing with different patients, with different symptoms analyze, they’re trying to understand they’re trying to find the antidote. And sometimes the first one works great, sometimes the 10th one only works great.

Wael F:
But going through these classes, discovering new ways, new verbalizations of new ways or of demonstration, how to get the information, how to understand how the hand and the body and the brain work, it’s a very complicated job, much more so than some people think. Especially if you do it on a professional level, not just in a recreational for hobby or therapeutically. But going through that and at the same time, because we deal with a great wealth of history.

Wael F:
At least what I like to do when I teach music, when I teach piano that I don’t just work with a student on this Chopin concerto or this Chopin… We get to know who Chopin was, we get to know about the French Revolution. We get to know about the Polish Revolution. We get to know about the Russian invasion of Poland, and 1840, and the 80-year war, the 30-year war, et cetera, cetera. What did Franz Liszt stand for politically? What did Rachmaninoff stand for politically?

Wael F:
Those people were timekeepers and were mirrors like all artists of what was happening culturally in terms of history, in terms of their own view of the world. And you probably cannot find a better time capsule than that because they are very accurate. So we delve into all of that, and of course, that really shapes the life of a young person in a wonderful way.

Wael F:
And also knowing that no matter what challenges you have; mentally, emotionally, physically, we all have our scars on the inside or the out. But again, that does not mean that you can not do something if you don’t apply all your faculties to it. But seeing at the end that critical faculties develop and seeing that they become their own teachers in a way. Because it’s one thing to tell somebody, “Okay, here, this solves the problem. Here is what you should do. Here is how you prepare for a piece, how you prepare for a competition, for an audition, for a concert.”

Wael F:
But to work with them over the two or three or the four years you have, sometimes longer till they become their own teachers. Because no matter what a great teacher you study with, at the end of the path, you are on your own. But if you know how to take care of yourself personally, musically, artistically, and always grow, always find new information to always learn, to always develop. I think this is very, very, very rewarding. It’s hard work, takes a lot of time, especially it takes a lot of time away from your practicing.

Wael F:
But it is our responsibility in a way, because I was given so much by all my teachers, freely and lovingly, and I wouldn’t trade this for the world. And I spend time with my teacher more than I spend with my parents. And I’m just proud and honored to be given an opportunity to present something like that to somebody else.

Gary S:
That sounds a lot like a Maestro hitting his final note right there. That’s what that sounds like to me, listeners. Before we go, I want to leave you listeners with something that before we hit record on this episode Warwick and Wael were talking about, and they were joking. They were laughing that their initials are the same, Warwick Fairfax and Wael Farouk. And we have guests as you’ve heard me say before, we have guests fill out these forms to help us prepare for the podcast and we ask a number of questions.

Gary S:
And one of the questions that we ask is, what’s one bit of advice you would give listeners to help them overcome crucibles? And this is what Wael wrote. But what struck me about it as I was reading it is that this quote, I could take this quote and I could put, “It was said by the initials WF,” and you wouldn’t know whether it was Warwick Fairfax or it was Wael Farouk who says it.

Gary S:
And here’s the quote, “Our lives in many ways are defined by how we act in the face of suffering and calamity. We are bound to go through rough waters, but this is for the good. What helped me go through all of my challenges is my faith and love for God, my family, and my work.” That, listeners defines both of the men that you’ve heard talking on this conversation today on Beyond the Crucible.

Gary S:
And until we’re together the next time, listeners, if you want to know more about Crucible Leadership and about Beyond the Crucible, we’ve got some exciting things you can discover at our website, crucibleleadership.com. There’s lots of new content, lots of new information coming. Go check us out, check those things out. You’ll be excited, I think by what you’ll see. And again, until the next time we are together, remember what we’ve discussed here, the truth of what we discussed here.

Gary S:
Your crucibles are painful. What Wael discussed was painful to him, has been, continues to be painful to him, but it’s so far from not the end of his story and it’s so far not the end of your story. Because if we learn the lessons from our crucibles, if we apply the lessons from our crucibles, it’s not the last chapter of our story. It can be the beginning of a new chapter that can lead to the best chapter of our lives, because the end result where we get to that destination is where Warwick’s ended up, is where Wael’s ended up, and that is at a life of significance.

We’ve all heard that living with your purpose top of mind – what we at Crucible Leadership call a life of significance – leads to a more joyful and impactful life. But did you know it also can lead to a longer life? Author Marta Zaraska makes an eye-opening case for that truth in her best-seller, Growing Young: How Friendship, Optimism and Kindness Can Help You Live to 100 – a book steeped in science (she studied more than 600 research papers in her research) that points to the health benefits of living life in community and in service to others. That means those steps you’re taking to overcome your crucibles — deepening authentic relationships, growing in character and kindness, leaning into the power of meditation and prayer — can lower your mortality rate more effectively than a fad diet or obsessing over whether you’re getting your 10,000 steps in every day.

To learn more about Marta Zaraska and Growing Young, visit www.zaraska.com

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Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Marta Z:
I really believe that most people can find in their jobs and what they’re doing, some kind of sense of meaning. But you have to really try, you have to spend some time to think about those things, what could it be? Can it be your family or maybe your community involvement or even when we’re talking about kindness, which is related to purpose and meaning. Research shows that acts of kindness can lower levels of our stress hormone, cortisol and generally change our gene expression.

Marta Z:
But the kind acts they are talking about, are usually quite small. It doesn’t require some huge, donating $1 million to charity. You can for instance just open doors for someone to let them ahead of you. You can let people ahead of you in traffic. You can pick up trash in your neighborhood. Just really small things. And yet they make all the difference. And I think it’s the same thing with purpose. Of course it’s great if your purpose in life is to save the world from climate change, awesome, but it can also be something small, very small steps and it’s all about shifting your perspective and just thinking about those things in the first place.

Gary S:
We’ve all heard that living with your purpose top of mind, what we call a life of significance, leads to a more joyful and impactful life. But did you know it also can lead to a longer life? Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. On this week’s episode, Warwick talks with Marta Zaraska, the best-selling author of Growing Young: How Friendship, Optimism, and Kindness Can Help You Live to 100. A book steeped in science that points to the health benefits of living life on purpose in service to others. Among the eye-opening facts she uncovers: volunteering lowers your mortality risk by 22%. Optimism can prolong your life by almost 10 years and supplements and fitness trackers aren’t likely to do as much for the length and quality of your life as simply living in close knit community will do for it.

Warwick F:
Marta, thank you so much for being here. When I read, I think it was a couple of weeks or so ago, the article in the Washington Post that talked about purpose and how having purpose could help increase longevity, I thought, “Boy, that makes sense intuitively, but I haven’t really read an article and now a book that actually talks about that from a science perspective.” So that’s fascinating, because at Crucible Leadership we’re all about helping folks bounce back from their crucible setbacks and failures to lead a life of significance. Which we define as a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. So that right in our wheelhouse and what our listeners will be curious about. So, Marta, thank you, again, so much for being here. Before we get into the book, tell us a little bit about how you became a science writer and the background? Because I know, I think you’re Canadian living in France but I believe you were born in Poland. So tell us a little bit about that journey about your background and how you came to be a science writer?

Marta Z:
I mean, I’ve been a journalist for over two decades now, so it’s been a while. First as a foreign affairs journalist I was working in Poland for several major publications there. I used to write about some things like social issues in Africa, I traveled a lot as well, places in Africa especially. And so, then as a very young adult, I moved out of Poland, I moved to Canada and so a few years later I also became Canadian. But I started writing in English at some point as well and decided that maybe traveling to Africa and very dangerous places generally, wasn’t going very well in line with starting a family.

Marta Z:
So, I decided to switch to a different type of writing, science writing. Although it’s connected to my previous work as well, because when I was writing about environment issues in Africa or some social issues, water shortages, it was also very much based in science already and I’m also married to a scientist, so it was a natural change of course for me. But I’ve been doing it for many, many years as well right now, so, writing, as you’ve mentioned before, for Scientific American, the Washington Post especially, and some other publications that is Los Angeles Times, et cetera, that you’ve mentioned, I’m sorry for all my editors in those newspapers, for putting them there, New Scientist et cetera.

Warwick F:
Wow, that’s amazing. So, now did you meet your husband in Poland or Canada or…

Marta Z:
Poland. I mean, we married crazy young, so yeah.

Warwick F:
And speaking of that, you have one or two kids?

Marta Z:
One, one daughter yeah, she’s eight.

Warwick F:
One daughter, okay. I’m sure it’s fascinating to see as she grows up, all of the different tendencies and changes. It’s one thing to read about people in scientific journals and papers, but then you get to observe a person too. And that must be pretty interesting, I imagine?

Marta Z:
I mean, that’s how it feels in a certain way, as I said, we are both Polish born naturalized Canadians and we live in France right now. So we’re actually raising a French person which adds that additional twist to the whole parenting.

Warwick F:
So what led you to move to France? Out of curiosity.

Marta Z:
Helping out with my husband’s PhD and we stayed afterwards.

Warwick F:
Okay. So, I imagine your daughter’s probably, obviously fluent in French and I guess she probably knows a bit of English and Polish does she?

Marta Z:
I mean, she’s trilingual, so she’s absolutely fluent in both French and English with no difference and her Polish is slightly worse than English and French, but she also can communicate fluently.

Warwick F:
I’m sure with the grandparents and all, that would be important, so…

Gary S:
That is tremendously impressive. I am barely, many days, unilingual, so…

Warwick F:
Yeah. That’s awesome. So, I want to get into the book, but I think one of the challenges you mentioned was coming from Poland, writing for a Polish language journal, it wasn’t the easiest thing in the world to get published in papers such as the Washington Post and writing another language is not the easiest thing, I’m sure, especially when you’re writing scientific articles. I mean, I did a bit of French in school and I can probably order a meal or get a room for the night, but there’s no way I could talk in French about some scientific subject. That would be way beyond me, so, that must not have been easy, I imagine?

Marta Z:
I mean the funny part is, I can not write in Polish anything about science at all, so, it is an interesting but it’s extremely difficult for me. But, yeah, I mean switching to English was a challenge, a big one definitely. And so to do so, me and my husband at some point many years ago, we’ve actually decided to switch to speaking English at home, which is something that many people find extremely weird. That we are both Polish and we speak English at home and our daughter speaks English with us at home. But from both our work’s perspective it was vital because we knew we were staying in the West and to be able to write properly in English, I had to think in English and to think in English, I had to speak in English.

Marta Z:
So that’s what we’ve decided to do and yes, breaking into the Western market is certainly a challenge and unfortunately even the top credits from Poland are not very much appreciated usually, so, I got a lot of rejection letters before I managed to break into… My first publication was Globe and Mail in Canada and so I really appreciated the chance that the Editor there, in the international section took on me. So, yeah, that was extremely challenging and it took a lot of being very, very stubborn and sending my emails and letters over and over and over and over and over again. I guess I’m pretty stubborn, so… And then once you write your first Washington Post article, then suddenly the door is open and things become much, much easier.

Warwick F:
Well, the power of persistence, a very important quality. Anybody that’s succeeded, I can’t think of anybody that hasn’t been persistent. I don’t know if persistence adds years to your life, but it should, so… I’m trying to remember if I read that, I’m not sure, but… So talk a bit about what led you to write Growing Young, because I know you’ve written another book, but why this book? I mean, was there anything that’s linked to your background, family, any reason why this whole growing young concept was fascinating to you?

Marta Z:
I mean, it came quite naturally out of my writing, because I write mostly about biological sciences, so everything concerning health, nutrition, psychology and also longevity. So all these topics I’ve been covering them in my articless previously, so there weren’t any surprising twists there. And also, in my private life, I’ve been quite interested in longevity and health and I think the book started basically, the idea for the book was at first to be a parenting book, actually. So I felt, as a mother I had this wish that my daughter would live healthy and long and I was thinking, “How can I help her achieve that? How can I assure that she’ll live a healthy and long life?” So I started gathering data and reading articles and journals and talking to experts, trying to figure out what makes people live long. And so, of course, there was the diet and exercise, but at the same time I started coming across more and more research showing that this social side of health.

Marta Z:
So whether we are socially integrated, whether we have purpose in life, meaning, whether we are optimistic, conscientious, all these things matter at least as much for health and longevity as diet and exercise. And then I realized also that there was something much bigger here than just a parenting book, because this applies to everyone not just for making sure that my daughter life long and healthy and for children in general, but also, for us parents and grandparents, for everybody, right? And this was a huge point that seemed to be missing completely from the discussions we were having in the media about what makes people live long and healthy. And this is why I decided to do even more research and I ended up reading over 600 research papers to write this book. Hence that was how Growing Young came about.

Warwick F:
It’s interesting, because as you write in the book, it’s easier to measure the effect of diet, exercise, nutrition probably scientifically than the things you write about, committed relationships, purpose, the socialization with friends. I mean, it’s probably a little… It feels a little more fuzzy, maybe it’s not as fuzzy, but that’s the popular concept. I know there’s a couple of things you write in your book, which again, I found absolutely fascinating. From everything from marriage to relationships to loneliness, so many things. You wrote a couple of things that talked about your purpose in the book. You wrote one comment that says, “I wrote Growing Young out of the believe that in the deluge of reductionist wellness news, we’ve somehow lost the big picture. Ignoring the things that matter the most for our longevity, relationships, emotions and the psyche.”

Warwick F:
And then another one you write, “My goal in writing this book was to help you fundamentally rethink how you approach your health. Whether you might be putting too much effort into strategies that don’t work well, supplements, fitness trackers and not enough into those that truly matter, your love life, your friendships, your life’s meaning.” And obviously you’re not saying that diet and exercise and health are not important, I mean, I’m sure, reading your book you obviously, you and your husband and daughter take that all seriously. But talk how there’s almost a fascination and obsession, my words not yours, with the latest diet, the latest fitness track, the latest treadmill machine. We’re just so focused on measuring pounds and calories and body fat, but yet we don’t really think too much of some of these other things such as relationships, emotions and such. So talk about the obsession the world, certainly the Western world has with that versus these other factors that seem to be pretty important?

Marta Z:
I mean we certainly are obsessed. When you think about it, half of all American adults take at least one dietary supplement every single day and the sales of all these fitness trackers are absolutely booming and so, I believe what’s happening are two things. So, for one, we find it comforting in a way, to measure things. We like simple solutions, so if you pop this miracle supplement your telomeres will become longer. If you measure your HRV rate you will know exactly how old you are. If you take 10,000 steps exactly per day, then you’ll be healthy.

Marta Z:
So we really like this kind of simple solution, this is what you do and this is the results you’re going to get. But I also think it’s fueled by marketing and sales, basically of all the companies that are selling us those products. Because why do we keep hearing about miracle diets and supplements and exercise gadgets so much and so little about the impact of friendship and social inclusion, happiness, purpose on health? Even though these things have been established in science for a very long time. And I believe the reason is exactly that when we are talking about diet and exercise, there are products that are being sold to us. All these supplements, it is a huge, multi-billion dollar industry worldwide.

Marta Z:
The fitness trackers, there is someone making money on all those things. So they’re being advertised, they’re being publicized by influencers on social media. So this is why we hear about all those things. Whereas when we’re talking about purpose in life, it’s hard to make money, nobody’s making money on you finding meaning in your life. So, this is why you don’t hear about it, you don’t see it on Instagram, because it’s just not making money for them.

Warwick F:
Right. Can you imagine, “Here’s this magic pill, have this pill for three weeks and you won’t be lonely. Have this other pill and you’ll have a happy marriage.” It’d be tough to sell that one.

Marta Z:
Yeah. It doesn’t exists.

Warwick F:
No, I mean, it’s funny, we are in my family, somewhat emblematic of what you’re talking about. I mean, I’m very blessed, my wife cooks very well and goes to health food places like Whole Foods, a huge US place. So we eat organic stuff and yes, I got to confess, we do have the odd supplement. I have to ask, I hope it doesn’t have any lead in it like some of the supplements you mentioned in your book. But yeah, I mean I like to think we’re also focused on purpose too. It is interesting-

Gary S:
I have to jump in and say, I feel really bad that I said at the outset off air that I’m keeping track of time on my Fitbit. So, I know how long we’re going, so I’m just going to sit over here and not say anything and sort of shrink back.

Warwick F:
Yeah. And perhaps not look at your Fitbit too much, right?

Gary S:
Yes, correct. Yeah.

Warwick F:
So, I mean… But what you say is there’s so many interesting takes, I mean, I want to get to purpose here and Ikigai, which I’m sure I’ll mispronounce, a little bit. Because, that purpose is so much of what we talk about here at Crucible Leadership. But there’s so many interesting stats you have, you’ve got a great chart in there that list a whole bunch of dieting things you can do and exercise and then everything from relationships to having purpose and social networks. But there’s one quote that I think you have in there that really sums up everything and compares some key dietary and exercise components with more of the social aspects, and this whole paragraph I found fascinating.

Warwick F:
So here’s what you wrote, “Here’s some stats, eating six or more servings of fruits and vegetables a day versus zero, lowers the risk of mortality by 26%. Sticking to the famed Mediterranean diet means a 20 to 21% lower risk of dying within the next few years. The number for many social factors are much higher, the happy marriage equals a 49% lower mortality risk. Living with someone, even just a roommate, as opposed to living alone, 19 to 32%. Having a large network of friends, 45%. Other mindset and social indicators have effects similar to that of the super-healthy eating style. Volunteering lowers mortality risk by 22%, more or less as much as following the Mediterranean diet. If you were to add everything together, combining a good marriage, strong friendships, feelings of belonging and so forth, you create a complex measure of social integration, or something that we call the essence of the Roseto effect,” which some town in Pennsylvania in the early ’60s where people were super close with each other, “you would get a whopping 65% reduction in mortality.”

Warwick F:
I mean, that’s just staggering. Here’s all of these things from Mediterranean, fruit and vegetables, but you compare that with things like marriage, volunteering, social networks, it’s not to say you shouldn’t do that, but it has as big an effect. I mean that was astounding to me, those statistics. I mean it’s mind blowing.

Marta Z:
I mean, there was also a disclaimer after. And I think it’s quite important to mention that so these numbers are coming from very different studies with very varying methodologies. So I don’t want people to get hung up on the numbers. “It’s exactly 21% over here, it is exactly 26%.” It’s just about giving a rough idea about how important these things are. But it doesn’t mean that you should be comparing them exactly, because I said they come from different studies. But in general research shows that social integration is at least as important as diet and exercise and perhaps even more important than diet and exercise. Even though diet and exercise are of course, very important for your health and longevity. But these things are maybe even more.

Marta Z:
So in the perfect scenario you’ll be eating healthy and exercising and making sure you’re socially integrated, that you’re involved in your community, that you have purpose in life. But also when we talk about diet and exercise, once again, it’s not this obsessive type of diet and exercise when we’re searching for all the best miracle foods and diets and eating Manuka honey sprinkled with Goji berries and popping all the possible telomere enhancing supplements. It’s simple, it’s just avoiding junk food and too much sugar, eating your fruits and veggies, which can be perfectly fine, carrots and apples and pears, there’s nothing wrong with them. They are very healthy and good for you. So, simple but still very important.

Warwick F:
No, absolutely. And I grew up in Australia but live in the US now. My wife’s American, we’ve lived here about 30 years. There are some comparisons that I found fascinating. You talk about eating at the dinner table together and in France, I think you mentioned people in their 30s and 40s, 61% eat with their families at night compared to 24% of Americans. That just makes so much sense, I mean, I’m blessed, we have three kids in their 20s and because of COVID they’re all living with us, and pretty much every night we do eat together. I mean that’s the way I grew up, in Australia we always ate together. I mean once in a while on the weekend maybe we’ll watch TV, but, yeah, that sense of just being together as you eat maybe again, Australian culture is different than American. So, when I was growing up, I can’t ever remember eating food in the car.

Warwick F:
That was anathema, it’s just having moved here and got married, I had to realize people do do that, which I thought was somewhat barbaric. I’m sure anybody in France would agree that eating in the car is barbaric, I don’t know about Poland but certainly the French would certainly believe it’s… But yeah, that sense of just… And often we’ll be talking around the dinner table and time will be getting on and I’ll want to wash the dishes and relax and we’re still talking. And I’m not that impatient, I like socializing. It’s not a five minute meal, I mean it’s and hour, hour and a half, I mean it’s every night. So, I guess we’re unusual. But talk about people don’t do that that much certainly in America, maybe Canada too, so, there are certain cultural things that have just changed in the last 30, 40 years that are not for the good, don’t you think?

Marta Z:
I mean, certainly. I lived in Canada for several years, obviously, and I got used to eating in my car as well, and eating while walking down the street and then I moved to France and I discovered but it’s a horrible faux pas to eat in your car or walking down the street, you just don’t do that. People will be looking at you like, “You’re a crazy person.” So, I would never do that right now and one time I was somewhere away for work and I actually had to eat a sandwich rushing from one meeting to another walking down the street. And I felt so horrible, I actually… I had the sandwich in my handbag and I was sneaking like a kid in school, eating during class. And it’s true that for the French, eating at a table is extremely important. In all Mediterranean cultures, for instance, my daughter here in a French school, she has a two hour break for lunch and for at least an hour they sit at a table and eat.

Marta Z:
They’re having an appetizer, then a second appetizer and the main dish then cheese platter and then the dessert. So, it’s something extremely important for the culture here. And this is what I also write about in Growing Young, that we often focus so much on the Mediterranean diet in terms of what kind of nutrients it contains. How much olive oil people are taking in when they’re eating a Mediterranean diet, how many grams of tomatoes or how much wine they’re drinking and calculating everything in this reductionist way, exactly. Whereas, an extremely important part of the Mediterranean diet is actually how they eat. It’s not only about what they eat, it’s important, but it’s not only that, it’s also how they eat. In Spain and Italy and France in those Mediterranean cultures you eat with other people. You eat slowly, you take your time, you talk, this is extremely important. So if you eat the same diet, the Mediterranean diet, in your car alone, it won’t have the same beneficial effects for your health. So, there is a huge part that we are missing in North America, I think.

Warwick F:
Yeah. And you make a very good point, I mean as a science writer you obviously want to understand cause and effect accurately. And so in some of these Blue Zones, Sardinia which… Island off of Italy, you study, “Boy look how the people live long and they’re healthy.” Well, yes, and they do eat, I’m sure, fruit, vegetables, olive oil, salads. But they probably eat amongst friends, they have social clubs, they help their friends and neighbors. A lot of the things you talk about in this book they do as part of their culture. And so how do you figure out what’s the diet and what’s some of the social factors? I mean, it’s probably not the easiest thing in the world to isolate. But while it’s hard to isolate, you can’t discount… You can’t say, “Oh, it’s all the Mediterranean diet.” I mean that’s a good point, but, I mean, I’ve seen documentaries on Blue Zones and they talk about some of these other things but it seems like the focus is on the diet, not on the other.

Marta Z:
I mean, for instance real life experiments was what happened and something you’ve mentioned earlier on, the Roseto. Roseto was a town in Pennsylvania that was actually settled by immigrants from Italy. And when they came over to Pennsylvania, they actually abandoned their Mediterranean diet very, very fast, unfortunately, and started eating a typical American diet, very greasy diet with lots of sausages and meat and they drank a lot of alcohol, a lot of beer. So they were definitely not eating healthy, they were also smoking a lot. And at the same time, this Roseto became famous because nobody were dying of heart attacks there. This attracted attention of scientists and doctors back in the 1960s. It was very far apart from all the surrounding areas, even though they had the same health care, same water system, similar social profiles, horrible diet, once again. And yet people were living much longer, I think their mortality rates were 30% lower, which is huge.

Marta Z:
So the doctors started studying the people there, they discovered it’s not in their genes either, there was nothing in there. But what was special about this town was that people there brought this exactly Mediterranean culture with them. So they were extremely social, they were constantly visiting, everybody knew all their neighbors. They were having huge backyard parties where everybody was invited. They were taking care of their front yards so the town would look pretty for everybody. They had 22 civic organizations in a town of 2,000 people, which was unbelievable. And so, scientists concluded that this was what was making them healthy, and this was named the Roseto effect. And also what the scientists did, they predicted back then in 1960 that were the Rosetans ever to abandon their ways and follow the usual American dream, the effects would disappear.

Marta Z:
And this is unfortunately what has happened in the ’80s and ’90s when the next generation started to move to the suburbs, work longer hours to be able to afford bigger houses, started driving in their bigger cars and they stopped visiting, they stopped having these community relationships. They stopped taking part in the civic organizations, and unfortunately, by now, their health just is the American average. This protective effect and their amazing cardiovascular health has completely disappeared.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s very instructive. They were eating an unhealthy diet, but yet, they were living long, but once they abandoned that tight-knit social lifestyle, their health changed. That would seem to be very determinative. One other thing, before we get to purpose, I found fascinating is you talk about committed romantic relationship, which obviously could be marriage. But you differentiate that between cohabiting where there’s not a life-long commitment. Obviously marriage in theory, it’s clearer, but whether it’s marriage or some alternative where you go in there thinking, “We’re doing this for life.” The fact that it lowers mortality by 49%, I mean, even with a room mate, I think I read somewhere maybe 20% or something, I mean, that’s just staggering, the effect of a committed long-term relationship such as marriage. So talk about why that makes such a difference?

Marta Z:
I mean, it boils down to our sense of security in the most basic form. So if you think about it, we are social apes. So we evolved to be with our tribe and this is where we feel the safest and this is where our bodies function the best. And so, our fight or flight response, so for instance, our HPA axis or hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, this stress response that activated back in evolutionary past when you stumbled up on a lion on the savanna, and today is activated by anything from your mortgage worries to traffic jams, this functions the best when we are with others. Basically we feel safe when we are with other people. And when you are in a committed relationship like that, the committed part is important because you know that the other person will be there for you for better or for worse. And then all the stress responses can function better because you know there is some support. You are not alone.

Marta Z:
And so all the biological processes that’s carrying on when we are stressed from different expression of genes related to our inflammation levels to antiviral response to cancer progression, all these kind of things function better when we feel safe. So this is part of it. The other part of it is also for instance that we exchange microbes with other people. So, we know that we exchange microbes with our friends, with our family, but in particular with our romantic partners, because we touch, because we kiss, and the more diverse people have their gut microbes, generally, the better their health functions. There are also other connections, there are social hormones that we have like oxytocin and serotonin for instance, that get released when we are touching, when we are talking, when we are looking deeply into each others’ eyes. When we are getting old, these warm feelings of trust and connection but also that have, down stream, very biological effects on our bodies.

Marta Z:
So for instance, oxytocin has antiinflammatory effects, serotonin has effects on the liver, endorphins are a natural painkiller. So we have all these hormones that, at the one hand, are acting as the social connection hormones and then on the other hand, have very direct biological effects on our body. Including allowing gut microbiome, everything is connected and talking, all these two-way pathways between our brain and gut and all the hormones interacting the best and working the best when we are feeling safe, connected and that we can trust people around us.

Gary S:
And the flip side of what you were talking about, and Warwick’s question about how committed relationships, friendships, those kind of things help you, help longevity, chapter five in your book, deals with the negative side of that, the lack of that. That’s called the Gnawing Parasite of Loneliness. Explain a little bit about, I mean, we especially in America, we can hear a lot about feeling lonely and there’s the connection quote—unquote that comes from some of our electronic ability to interact with one-another. But studies, I think, have shown that, that isn’t really connection. What is the effect of loneliness on what you just described? Right, the absence of all of those things? What does that do to us?

Marta Z:
Yeah, so loneliness is the flip side of it. So you have all these systems activated so, for instance, we know that people who are lonely, they have shorter telomeres so those protective caps at your ends of chromosomes that take part in aging they have different gene expression when it comes to counter progression or negative they have more inflammation levels they have worse antiviral response they even respond worse to vaccinations. So, there are lots of things that are happening when we are lonely and this is already becoming more and more recognized by health authorities around the world, for instance, in the UK they now have a ministry for loneliness because they know that this is costing the public health care system money, and a lot of money. There were even some calculation how much exactly, I don’t remember the figures, but they were very high. Also, in Manitoba in Canada is a ministry for senior loneliness.

Marta Z:
So, they’re becoming recognized that it’s a really big problem for our health. And it is true that the online connection doesn’t give us the same things, which of course, brings us the pandemic and a lot of people are asking me these days, “Are we doomed? Are we going to all live shorter because we are not connecting now? And is it really only bad for our health?” And whereas it’s definitely not good for our health to be separated and not being able to connect in our natural, normal ways with other people, on the other hand, when scientists study social inclusion and loneliness, the questions they usually ask people are, “Are there any people out there on whom you can count? Is there anybody out there who would bring you soup if you were sick? Is there anybody out there whom you could call and talk about your problems?”

Marta Z:
And the thing is, even though we’re right now isolating these things haven’t disappeared. So if you had friends like that, they can still bring you the soup and drop it at your doorstep, even if you can not meet them in person, you can still pick up the phone and call them. So I don’t think this is the same kind of loneliness that researchers are talking about in the research papers. Because they are talking about chronic loneliness so that you really do not have people like that. There is nobody who would bring you some medicines if you were sick. There is nobody who will drive you to the airport. There’s nobody who you can call. And this is when it’s problematic.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s fascinating. But another thing… A lot of things that I found fascinating, you talk about the power of meditation, different religious traditions, different philosophies such as Viyoga and maybe it’s a way of controlling, regulating emotions, feelings. You mentioned an example of somebody that could have a root canal, I think it was, and through meditation, was able to deal with the pain which I find fascinating. And I’m a person of faith so I think of prayer, at least from my perspective, when I try and relate it to what you talk about, prayer and meditation, and it’s just fascinating how in different religious traditions they tell you how to meditate or how to pray.

Warwick F:
And some of the ways that you do that actually makes some degree of sense. It’s like some people analyze in great detail the Lord’s Prayer, which anybody in the Christian tradition, like it or not, have to recite. But when you analyze the different aspects of it, from almost like a meditative perspective, there are things like focusing on not yourself, but some other higher power. Something external. There’s realizing maybe there’s some higher power in control, that’s assertive, there’s focusing anybody that’s serious about prayer will tell you, don’t go to God with your laundry list, that is a quote—unquote wrong way to pray. Focus on praying for other people. So as I read meditation, I could really… And there’s some of these traditions I can translate it in terms of prayer, it was very similar conceptually. So talk about how whether it’s prayer, meditation, different religious traditions, how they help you regulate your psyche and in some ways also add to longevity. What’s the relationship between all of that?

Marta Z:
I mean, so generally thinking about, exactly, something outside of yourself, so that’s what I write about in Growing Younger, is looking outwards, right? Not only inside yourself, “What I’m eating? What I’m ingesting? How many steps I take?” That looking how you can be helpful? How you can add something to the community? How you can be kind? How you can be better? And this is all, beside the prize when I write about kindness and empathy and volunteering for instance, it has huge impact on health, and generally caring for other people. Also meaning and purpose, it’s also about looking outside of yourself at the bigger picture of how you can be helpful. The last chapter of my book I write about Japan, and I traveled there to talk to people, researchers and also some centenarians about longevity and one extremely important part of longevity research and longevity conversation in Japan, is Ikigai so this purpose in life, meaning in life, reason for living.

Marta Z:
And it’s so important for them that even their ministry of health actually when they are talking about stuff to help longevity, they actually talk about Ikigai as much as they talk about diet and exercise. So it’s truly recognized as really boosting health and there is plenty of research showing it lowers your risk, for example, for cardiovascular problems and other health problems and general. And Ikigai it’s exactly about contributing something to others. Sometimes I ask in interviews in the West for instance, can golfing be my Ikigai? And generally the answer is unfortunately not, it has to be something outside of yourself. No matter how small. So for instance, the Japanese people I talked with, they told that their Ikigai is taking care of their grandchildren, or making sure their front yard looks pretty so the neighbors can enjoy it.

Marta Z:
This is also why many Japanese people take on something they call silver hair jobs. This is when they are already post retirement age, but they decide to take on very simple, easy jobs, usually part-time, not to make money, but to be still involved in something. To be giving back to the community, so they can be public space gardeners, they can be helping children cross on the way to school, they can be doing things like that. And they usually say, “We do it because of Ikigai.” So they can feel needed, they feel involved, they feel they’re giving back. And this is exactly what’s so powerful in both kindness and finding meaning when it comes to longevity and health.

Warwick F:
I think it’s fascinating what you’re saying, Marta, because in Ikigai the focus is obviously, outward focused. It’s caring for their neighbors, their grandkids. It’s not some internally-focused purpose. I mean that’s when we talk about in Crucible Leadership, a life of significance, which we view as the goal more than success. Not that success is wrong and you write about this, I’m sure I read it there somewhere but from our perspective significance is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Now what that could be could be a very different things, depends on your values, your perspective, what’s on your heart.

Warwick F:
But the fact that it seems like in Ikigai… And you visited a number of different places one, Matakaoa in Nagano province, which I guess is where they had the ’98 Winter Olympics which seemed to be one of the hubs of this, I think you write that men live longer there than the whole of Japan, 82.2 years, 10 years longer than some folks in the US. As you visited these towns, and you talk about what you saw, that it’s really focused on others, right? It was not… I’m not against self-actualization, but it was other-focused. That was really the key to Ikigai, right? It wasn’t just making my dreams, my, my, my this. It was more the community.

Marta Z:
Yeah. I mean, definitely among the older population because there’s another thing, Japan is changing very fast, right? So this is also what researchers are very much worried about, that even though they are now the longest living nation on the planet, this is because of culture and values that they’ve had previous generations. But whether in 40, 50 years Japan still will be such a long lived nation is another question because the younger people is changing very much. So they’re much more consumption-oriented, they are much more following western values and so this is disappearing. But definitely when you look at the older people, they do have those beliefs, they really do look outwards. They really care about their community, how their village or town square looks like, about helping others. They do those silver hair jobs, it’s actually very, very common in Japan, this is not some kind of exception for crazy people. This is actually mainstream, so, certainly these values this made them such a long lived nation. But if they change, then this will no longer continue.

Warwick F:
And I almost feel like even in the West, some of these things are beginning to creep in. Somebody wrote a book a number of years ago, Halftime, which is the first half of your life, maybe you’re successful and then second half is for significance. I think all our life should be significance but that’s another discussion. But I think more and more, even younger people, they want purpose and meaning. If there are two jobs, one pays slightly better, 10% better but you just feel like a small cog in a machine, you don’t feel like you’re treated well, and there’s no purpose or meaning, you probably won’t want it. More and more companies are trying to say, in America I can think of some examples like Southwest Airlines the most successful, probably best run airline. Their whole mission was to make travel affordable to connect families.

Warwick F:
That was their reason for being. So, if you join that, it was like, “Well, that’s a purpose in life outside of yourself that you can believe in.” Who wouldn’t want to make, especially 20 years ago, when airline travel is not cheap, but it was much more expensive in days gone by, who wouldn’t want to help families get together through affordable travel? So, some of the smart companies, at least I observe, are drifting towards, because their employees want it, younger people want purpose and meaning. So do you see, I don’t know if there’s any data on this, but do you see some of that even in the West, maybe it’s not because of living longer that there’s a desire for meaning and purpose in life and that might be a lot of different things, it’s not organized religion or anything, but there is a sense that people yearn for purpose there’s almost a growth in that desire. Do you see that at all in the West?

Marta Z:
I mean, I’ve heard about it, I haven’t seen hard data on intergenerational differences. I’ve definitely seen data on how the pandemic has changed our search for meaning for the better. In general when times are tough, humans start to look for purpose and meaning and there are several surveys right now showing that many people in the pandemic are looking more for purpose and meaning than they were before. And I think this is a very good change, both from society’s perspective, our mental health perspective and also from our health and longevity perspective. So, it’s certainly good news that it’s shifting our focus and making us look at those things a little bit more.

Gary S:
This is a perfect time to inject this bit of information, Marta, that you said in your article in the Washington Post that got Warwick excited to have you on the show. You indicated that according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention four out of 10 Americans haven’t yet managed to find purpose in their lives. And I did, just before we hopped on this call, I did a quick survey of four in 10 Americans on Google, just to see what else four in 10 Americans have done.

Gary S:
And here’s the interesting thing, I’m not a big statistics guy, I’m a word guy not a number guy, but it seems like four in 10 tends to be the figure that’s used for things that aren’t good, right? So four in 10 Americans, for instance, have no idea have no idea how credit scores work, okay? Four in 10 Americans are now obese, that’s germane to this conversation. Four in 10 Americans from a study in 2015 breathe polluted air and then my favorite one, which is not good, is four in 10 Americans said that they would rather give up their dog than give up their phone.

Marta Z:
Oh my goodness. That’s bad.

Gary S:
That’s terrible. And it goes exactly against what we have been talking about. So I bring that to you to say, yes, if people are anecdotally, you’re hearing people are moving toward more of that, why is it so hard still that 40% are still having a hard time finding that purpose and what, based on your research maybe, is a tip or two you could give them to help get them in the right direction to find what we would call, a life of significance?

Marta Z:
I mean, it’s just spending time on it. I think people just don’t put it on their schedule to just sit down without looking at their phones and just think about, “What’s my purpose and meaning?” And I believe anybody can find it, it can be found everywhere. There was this one fascinating study I’ve read about hospital workers, and it was actually about the cleaning staff of hospitals and some of them considered their jobs absolutely horrible, they were like, “Oh, it’s horrible, I’m cleaning the toilets. It sucks, it’s a bad job. I don’t like it.” And so on, but there was also a small part of those hospital workers who actually said that they loved their jobs because they give them amazing sense of meaning. And the reason for that was that they had a different perspective on what they were doing.

Marta Z:
So, they didn’t consider themselves as just people who cleaned toilets, they considered themselves as people who are helping the patients get better and the doctors and nurses to work better and generally to help the hospital function and bring people back to health. They felt that cleaning the floor was keeping the germs away, clean toilets was making it more pleasant for the patients. So just by shifting the focus, they made exactly the same job suddenly really good and giving them purpose and meaning. So I really believe that most people can find in their jobs and what can find in their jobs and what they’re doing, some kind of sense of meaning. But you have to really try, you have to spend some time to think about those things, what could it be? Can it be your family or maybe your community involvement or anything. Even when we’re talking about kindness, which is related to purpose and meaning. Research shows that acts of kindness can lower levels of our stress hormone, cortisol and generally change our gene expression. But the kind acts they are talking about, they’re usually quite small.

Marta Z:
It doesn’t require some huge, donating $1 million to charity. You can for instance just open doors for someone to let them ahead of you. You can let people ahead of you in traffic. You can pick up trash in your neighborhood. Just really small things. And yet they make all the difference. And I think it’s the same thing with purpose. Of course it’s great if your purpose in life is to save the world from climate change, awesome, but it can also be something small, very small steps and it’s all about shifting your perspective and just thinking about those things in the first place.

Warwick F:
One other related thing on purpose I find fascinating, I think you write it in your article and in the book is, when, as we say, you go through crucible experiences, sometimes there can be greater meaning and purpose. You write about World War II there was a greater sense of purpose, I think, in France than almost any other time since or something. There’s a sense of, “We’re fighting against Nazi Germany and the resistance and many acts of heroism. I think in your article you talk about Viktor Frankl the Austrian psychiatrist and Holocaust survivor that hypothesized that higher purpose gives people a will to stay alive. And it’s horrific, the experiences. Talk about how sometimes nobody want’s to go through crucible experiences but sometimes our purpose in life or our purpose can come amidst very challenging circumstances?

Marta Z:
So I had this other article in the Washington Post the post-traumatic growth and this is a phenomenon recognized in psychology as something sometimes comes after post-traumatic stress disorder. Which of course, is a very bad thing to happen to you when you have this kind of traumatic experience. But for 13% of the people research is still uncertain for how many, depends on various factors, they can actually experience growth. So they consider themselves as stronger and more connected to other people and generally better off then they would otherwise have been if this traumatic event has not happened to them. Which is absolutely fascinating and this research has been done on war prisoners on victims of hurricanes and earthquakes and really people who have traumatic experiences.

Marta Z:
And yet if they manage to, especially if they manage to talk through it with other people, if they manage find, exactly purpose and meaning perhaps in the experience they can emerge even stronger than they would’ve otherwise been. Which, for me, it really gives me hope that even if something really, really bad happens, there can be still something positive perhaps coming out of it. Especially now that we are living in this pandemic and we know from previous studies on the first SARS epidemic that a lot of healthcare workers and people who were hospitalized, they experience PTSD but there are also emerging studies showing that there were also people experiencing post-traumatic growth after the SARS pandemic. So there are potentially some silver linings here.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, as we sum up, what fascinated me about your book and the article was just we talk a lot to our listeners about how you bounce back from crucibles. It could be your fault or not your fault, failure, setbacks and as Gary always says at the end of the podcast, crucibles don’t have to be the end of your story. They can be the beginning of exciting new chapter. And what I like about what you write in your book is, you provide really a roadmap, in a sense, I mean, it’s not necessarily your purpose, but you write a roadmap of how to recover from crucible experiences just by following the data.

Warwick F:
By obviously finding purpose and as you find purpose you want to do it in community because you’re going to need support, you don’t want to be alone. Thinking of others, kindness, empathy, meditation, prayer, different ways to get internally centered. These are all things to get beyond crucibles and live a fulfilling, satisfying life. I mean, pretty much every chapter has an aspect, committed relationships, that really help you live a, not just a long life, but a contented, joyful life. If you follow these things. Which, again, may not have been your purpose, but it does provide a roadmap for getting beyond crucibles and leading a joy-filled life. I mean it probably partly was your purpose too, but does that make some kind of sense?

Marta Z:
I mean, totally. This is why I also called the book Growing Young. It was not about becoming younger in a way that you’re going to have less wrinkles. It was about growing as a person, so you grow as a person, and if you grow as a person you also stay younger, you stay in better health, right? So, this was an extremely important aspect for me. And also find your worthy in a way that if we will improve we will become better, we become kinder more socially connected, find meaning, give back to the community, become more optimistic that we can actually also improve our health, both mental and physical.

Gary S:
Now, that sound that you heard, listener, was the captain turning on the fasten seat belts sign and we’re coming to the place where we need to land the plane. As that happens I’m duty-bound to tell you do not turn your phones on. Not only because the flight attendants say not to, but because as Marta’s been talking about spending too much time on your phones can be bad for your sense of purpose, for your longevity. Marta, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity as we begin to wrap up here to let listeners know how they can find out more about your book and find out more about you.

Marta Z:
I mean, so you can find it in all the usual book selling places from Amazon to all the small booksellers and you can also find it on my website, which is www.growingyoungthebook.com and you can find me on twitter and Instagram at @mzaraska so M-Z-A-R-S-K-A.

Gary S:
Excellent. Warwick, do you have a final thought, a final question before we wrap?

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, Marta, again thanks so much for being here. When I first read that article about purpose can help you live a longer life and then read the book, everything resonated. Having purpose defined as thinking of others, it could be a big purpose, climate change as you put it. But it could be just helping your neighborhood, like the folks in Japan. Just cleaning the sidewalks outside the house, not just so much for them, but just to make the whole street look better. I think of when you go to these Swiss villages and gosh every little house has some geraniums or flowers outside. I mean every single one, it’s just staggering and the sidewalks also look spotless. So, I don’t know, maybe they have a similar concept, but yeah, just this sense of caring for others, of optimism, committed relationships, community, internal centering mechanisms, whether it’s meditation or prayer.

Warwick F:
They will help you live longer, have more purpose and have more joy. So the fact that there’s some data behind doing things that seemed to me to be common sense and that actually says you will live longer and live healthier, I mean, I just found it very affirming and very encouraging. And I hope people will really pay attention to what you’ve said in your book and not ditch diet and exercise, which you’re not talking about that. Just do what you need to do to be healthy but don’t overly obsess about the latest supplement or the latest fad and don’t ignore the social side, the purpose side. You can do both, you do both you might actually be healthier and more joyful in all ways. I think your book is really, it has such an important message. It’s really a clarion call for people to… Don’t ignore the social side. So it was really very affirming, very challenging.

Marta Z:
Thank you.

Gary S:
Well, listener, that sound you heard was the landing gear landing on the tarmac. We have wrapped this episode of Beyond the Crucible. Here again is Growing Young, Marta Zaraska’s book. So please, get it, it’s a fascinating read. It’s one of those that people in your household get upset with you because you open it up and you can’t put it down. And they’re like, “Come to dinner.” “Wait a minute, I have to read more, there’s still more to come.” But one of the things that it points out, before I summarize some take aways here, one of the things I think it points out, if I had to summarize it and I wrote this on my notes, is that doing the things in this book, finding your purpose and applying your purpose and living your purpose make the world a better place and let you enjoy it longer. And those are two great things to put together. You’re improving your environment, your improving your world and your improving your life in terms of you can live longer.

Gary S:
And to that end, listener, here are some take aways and I’m going to, for the take aways, I’m going to use the statistics and I’m going to preface some of these statistics with Marta’s explanation that there’s are not set in cement, these are from different studies with different methodologies and so don’t take this the statistics so much to heart as you would the arrow that they point toward. That these are good statistics, they’re not walking around quoting them verbatim may not because they’re not all universal. But from this book I have pulled three tips, one is, volunteering lowers your risk of death by 22%. That is a fascinating statistic. And again, don’t get hung up on the number, get hung up on the arrow. Volunteering can make your life longer and better and the benefit of that, if you volunteer to help someone who’s lonely, that helps their life as well. The second thing is, improving close relationships has a 45% again, don’t get hung up on the number, it has a great impact on your longevity, by improving close relationships.

Gary S:
Having those people that Marta described who will call you up when you’re sick and bring you soup or bring you medicine. Those kind of people, even in this situation we’re in now with the pandemic. You can still have close relationships and you can still work on those things. And then the one that I ended our conversation with. This statistic is a bit stark but it’s one of those statistics we can change, 40% in the US haven’t found their purpose yet. Here’s the good news about that, we can change it. You can put down your phone, you can unplug your video game. You can watch this, if you’re on YouTube, if you’re not I’m going to describe for you what I’m doing, I am taking off my fitness tracker. You can take off your fitness tracker and not be obsessed about it. If you do those things then you think about it and take, as Warwick often has said, when you think about your purpose you think about your purpose and you can take, as Warwick often says one small step toward it.

Gary S:
What that small step is, is going to vary for everybody listening to this conversation. But that’s how you find your purpose. Think about it and then act on it, take one small step to find out what that might be that aligns with your values and your talents and then go pursue it. So, listener, until the next time that we’re together here on Beyond the Crucible, thank you for spending time with us in this truly enlightening conversation with Marta Zaraska. If you would do a favor for Warwick and I, click, subscribe to the podcast app on which you’re listening to this show right now. That helps us reach more people with these kinds of conversations, which are eye-opening. And hopefully experience opening for you as it leads you down the road to pursue that life of purpose.

Gary S:
And until we are together the next time, remember this, that your crucible experiences is painful and it’s real and we know that. We’ve been through those things but it does not have to be the end of your story. In fact, it will not be the end of your story, if you learn the lessons of that crucible, if you apply the lessons of that crucible to your life as you move forward. The reason it’s not the end of your story, the reason it’s the beginning of a new chapter in your story and the most rewarding chapter of your story is that, that new chapter, that new experience, those lessons you’ve learned applied to your life as you go forward can lead you to a life of significance.

Chris Leeuw had his entire life ahead of him — and it looked very bright. A self-described “adrenaline junkie,” he reveled in outdoor activities like water-skiing and kayaking and loved his job in local TV news. It all changed in a tragic instant. Chris, at 28, was paralyzed from the neck down in a freak recreational diving accident — and thought he’d never walk or be able to care for himself again. But despite the physical and financial crucibles he faced, he refused to give up. Chris let every physical sensation he began to feel again fuel his drive to pursue the most cutting-edge treatment and rehabilitation — and work tirelessly to achieve the healing he once dared not imagine was possible. Now, just more than a decade later, he has regained much of his mobility and something just as life-changing: a passion for helping others with spinal-cord injuries via the nonprofit rehabilitation center he founded.

To learn more about Chris Leeuw, visit www.neurohopewellness.org

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Chris L:
So, we counted to three, jumped off feet first. And I remember falling, and I can hear the velocity. It was a long drop. Looking at the water, and then I hit the water. I knew something was drastically wrong. And it’s hard to sort of explain it other than the feeling of as if I had got hit by stun gun or something like that. It was a far drop, the water was cold. At first, I thought maybe I had whiplash or something. But all I could tell was it was as if I’d been hit by a stun gun and I was totally completely frozen. I just couldn’t move anything. I didn’t feel anything. There was no pain. I didn’t feel like anything had hit me. But I was in the water, and I couldn’t move, and I was utterly frozen. And I remember just being in complete confusion, but I couldn’t move. And I was just floating in between the water and the ground. I always mention that it felt like I was an astronaut drifting somewhere in space.

Gary S:
That’s a pretty dramatic story, isn’t it? But would you believe it’s not the most dramatic thing about the crucible experience of our guest today. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger co-host of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. Today’s guest is Chris Leeuw. And what he just described was a devastating recreational diving accident that left him a quadriplegic, and in an instant tragedy that almost killed him. But as you’ll hear in his conversation with Warwick, Chris refused to let paralysis be the end of his story. After two years of arduous rehab complicated by some setbacks with his insurance coverage, he battled back not only to regain movement and mobility, but to found a non-profit rehab center where he lives his life of significance helping others move beyond their physical and emotional crucibles.

Warwick F:
Well, Chris, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it. You have just an amazing story in how you’ve come back from what… I mean, it’s hard to believe what you have, achieved is probably not the right word, but what you’ve overcome. It is almost literally unbelievable. I’m sure a lot of people have said what you did is maybe not impossible, but close. So obviously the turning point in your life was that spinal cord injury. But tell me a bit about Chris Leeuw and growing up and career. And what was life like before age 28? What was the before story, so to speak?

Chris L:
Well, thanks for having me, Warwick. It’s really good to talk to you and Gary, good to see you both. And I appreciate you thinking of me in your podcast. The premise of your podcast definitely relates to my life. I know it relates to a lot of other people as well, struggles we go through. So I appreciate you having me on. Obviously, my life changed a lot as you heard in the introduction. But early on, wondering about pre-injury and pre life-changing moment. I was hurt at age 28. But before then, I think I was always a very active individual. I was an adrenaline junkie a little bit. A little bit how I got paralyzed, and you’ll probably recognize that. But I grew up in Indianapolis in a very fortunate upper middle-class family.

Chris L:
My family is amazing. They were a huge part of my recovery. They were a huge part of the clinic I’m in now. I grew up very fortunate having that nuclear family. I always had a sense of adventure, I was always active. I was always the guy that was, you couldn’t keep me still getting into activities here and there and always wanting to do more. And I think that sort of led me to my first career path, which was in television and news. I was drawn to being a reporter because think about what a reporter does, they’re out and about, they’re doing stories, doing the community. No day is different. I really found that to be a big part of who I was as a person early on, never wanting to sit still, always wanting to get out there and do things.

Warwick F:
So, as you were growing up were things you liked to do with your mom and dad, I mean, sports, you’re a very active person. Were there things that you just loved doing?

Chris L:
I had two passions when I was younger. One of them was water skiing and wakeboarding. I did that since about the age five or six. I was on a pair of skis and I was on the Indiana University Water Ski Club and I actually taught water skiing and wakeboarding in college in the Berkshire, Massachusetts mountains. And the one was playing the drums. I played the drums since I was about age five or six, too. My parents got me involved in activities because I was so restless all the time. And those are some of the things that I definitely had a passion for growing up.

Warwick F:
I can imagine. Don’t let Chris sit still. Keep him busy. Which makes sense. And so, reporting now. I mean, you mentioned you loved being on the go, but how did you pick that? And was that in Indianapolis or where did you start out with TV reporting?

Chris L:
I majored in telecommunications and business at Indiana University. I really liked, I really enjoyed the filmmaking part of it as well. So, that was part of the whole thing that drew me into journalism. But also just the storytelling part. I always liked a little bit of the adrenaline, I think of even just public speaking, and being live on air. There’s always is always nervous, but then afterwards, you liked it. So, maybe that was part of it that drew me to it as well. But a lot of it was just I didn’t see myself having an office job at that age in my early 20s, and I wanted to just do something that had to do with being active.

Warwick F:
That’s great. That was local, was it?

Chris L:
That’s how I gravitated toward that. And then I actually I went to graduate school for journalism after my undergraduate degree, but there are definitely times between there that I was bouncing around not knowing I was going to do exactly with life. It wasn’t like I was like, “Okay, as soon as I graduate, I’m going to go into this profession. So, I guess to answer your question, I started in Indiana. I also worked at some news stations in Florida, and then back to Indiana.

Warwick F:
Okay.

Gary S:
This is the first time… I just have to note this for the record. This is the first time on Beyond the Crucible that we have three people with journalism backgrounds all sharing the microphones.

Chris L:
It’s true.

Gary S:
We’ve got Chris, a former television journalist. Gary, the co-host, a former newspaper journalist, and Warwick, former magnate who owned a company that owned both print and electronic journalism outlets. So, look at us.

Chris L:
There you go.

Warwick F:
Yeah. So, I never actually was a reporter. But yeah, on the different sides. So talk about that fateful day. As I was understanding it was Southern Indiana. You were kayaking. It was just a probably beautiful warm day. You were out as you love doing in nature and water. I guess you weren’t quite water skiing, but you were kayaking. And you must have thought, “Boy, life is just awesome.” You’re with some buddies. So, take us through that day because it started out probably as just a wonderful warm day.

Chris L:
Yeah, it was a 95 degree hot, humid, Midwestern day. And I was with two of my best friends, and we were kayaking. And it’s one of those things where a typical summer Sunday you’re having fun with your friends. I was at the age where… At age 28, you have your life ahead of you. At that point you don’t really realize it at the time. I mean, I’m 39 now so there’s been 11 years that have passed since then I’ve learned a whole lot. But that day I look back at that day often. And you just no idea what’s in store in life in general. You think you have things figured out even when you’re young at that age, going into the professional world. But obviously, I had no idea what was in store for me later that afternoon.

Chris L:
So we’re kayaking on this river, and we approach this bridge that’s over the river. It’s an abandoned bridge. It’s a truss bridge. And there were some people jumping off the bridge into the water, maybe about 20 feet or so into the water deep water, not overly dangerous, and was with my friends and we were like, “Oh yeah, we’re jumping off that bridge, too.” That’s supposed to be fun.

Warwick F:
Adrenaline junkies after all.

Chris L:
Yeah, I mean, it was hot. It was fun. I mean, it wasn’t anything more dangerous than maybe jumping off the high dive. It wasn’t ultimately that dangerous. But then jumped off a couple times, but then there was this higher truss, one of these big vertical beams that went way up higher about an extra 30 feet. And then I decided to climb up that as well. So I kind of scaled up this vertical beam up to the very top beam probably about 50, 60 feet above the water. And I always tell people, it felt like one of those construction pictures you see of New York City with people and the hardhats on.

Chris L:
That’s what it felt like on this beam over the treetops, and I’m about to jump off, and I hear this voice from down below, someone telling me to wait. It was a stranger. I didn’t know who he was. But I kind of looked down and said, “Okay, come on up if you want to jump with me.” I’m always good having a partner. So, I waited for him to climb up and we’re both sitting there like two birds on a little perch on a wire.

Chris L:
I can remember the conversation pretty clearly. I have been up there for a while, and I wanted to get off that beam. And he was like, he said to me, he said, “Wow, look you can see everything up here.” I remember cutting him off mid sentence, and I was like, “Yeah, that’s great. I’m going to jump in three seconds. So, are you ready?” And he said, “Yep.” So we counted to three, and jumped off feet first. And I remember falling, and I can hear the velocity when you… It was a long drop, looking at the water, and then I hit the water. I knew something was drastically wrong.

Chris L:
It’s hard to sort of explain it other than the feeling of as if I would’ve got hit by a stun gun or something. There was a far drop, the water was cold. At first, I thought maybe I had whiplash or something. But all I could tell was it was as if I had been hit by a stun gun, and I was totally completely frozen. I just couldn’t move anything. I didn’t feel anything. There was no pain. There was no… I didn’t feel like anything had hit me, but I was in the water, and I couldn’t move, and I was utterly frozen.

Chris L:
I remember just being in complete confusion. But I couldn’t move, and I was just floating in between the water and the ground. I always mention that it felt like I was an astronaut drifting somewhere in space. But I was frozen, I couldn’t move. After a few moments, I didn’t think about drowning at that moment, but it was pretty soon after that where that started being a very concern of mine. And after what felt like five minutes, it was probably only about maybe 10 or 15 seconds I felt this strange feeling on my back. And that’s when I realized that, okay, at least I was on the surface, but I was still head down facedown in the water. Yeah, I couldn’t I couldn’t move.

Chris L:
What happened was it turned out the gentleman that jumped with me, we jumped at the same time, we fell at about the same rate, he ended up coming in right on top of me as we struck the water simultaneously, and just snapped my neck at this fourth cervical level. So, just like that I was totally paralyzed from the neck down.

Warwick F:
This wasn’t one of your buddies, it was just some other guy that was there, right?

Chris L:
Right. Yeah. He was another person that was watching us jump.

Warwick F:
Yeah. So you didn’t… And so, as you’re up there, 50 foot up, and you’re about to go were you thinking that you were going to jump together? Or hey, let’s do it together? You didn’t think about, “Oh, gee, what could happen?” You think you’re just going to both jump on the water? It’s just not one, two, three, let’s go. It’s just-

Chris L:
Exactly, yeah.

Warwick F:
It doesn’t occur to you that that could even happen.

Gary S:
And it probably didn’t seem that different. I’ve seen when romantic couples dive off of cliffs, they hold hands and they jump at the same time. So, I would think why you guys probably weren’t holding hand is the fact that you jumped together at the same time didn’t seem that unordinary, right?

Chris L:
Right. Yeah, It didn’t at all. No, I mean, we weren’t holding hands, but we were very close to one another because the way up to that top truss was just this one vertical beam. And once you’re up on that beam, it’s not like we were walking around. It was so high. I didn’t think about it. But in hindsight I really beat myself up over it. Because I was like we were so close to each other when we jumped, we didn’t even think about it. And that’s what did it. We were just so close to each other.

Warwick F:
So, in that moment when obviously your face down, you can’t move, you’re not probably thinking, “Oh, gosh, I must be paralyzed.” You’re just confused, right? It’s like, “I don’t know what’s happening.” So, talk us through those first few moments, first maybe hour or two. I mean, what was going through your head?

Chris L:
The worst. I actually did sort of… Well, when I was facedown in the water I knew obviously something was wrong. I was very, very close to drowning because I was face down drifting a little bit. And I remember when you get to that point, if you’ve ever tried holding your breath underwater, you get to see how long you can do it. You get to that point where alarms going off in your head. I was definitely at that point. About the last second I started feeling someone tug my body and flipped me over. Then the second that happened, I just screamed out. I was like, “I’m awake, I’m awake. I’m conscious,” because I figured a lot of people might have thought I was unconscious. It was the guy that jumped on me. He eventually got to me, and flipped me over, and dragged me to shore.

Chris L:
As soon as I was on the shore, a lot of the commotions had stopped. But still it’s a very surreal feeling being paralyzed. It’s very surreal because just thinking, maybe this is going to wear off. Maybe it’s a little bit of whiplash. Within the span of a couple minutes you go from this carefree summer Sunday to constantly all of a sudden thinking that you see the no diving signs on swimming pools, and you hear the stories of people like Christopher Reeve who’s famous for he really is one of the people in the ’90s that put spinal cord injuries on the map and all those things ran through my head, too.

Chris L:
I think even in that early moments on that beach I just said, “Okay, just get up, just move. You can do this, just move.” And when you can’t, feeling like you’re stuck in concrete I started to realize that, okay, as the minutes went on that this was serious. I had been a lifeguard. So, I had done back boarding drills, and I some of those things are always in the back of your mind like, “Okay, well, do I have a spinal cord injury? Is this happening?”

Warwick F:
So, all those thoughts were in your mind.

Chris L:
They were.

Warwick F:
You knew, obviously, this was serious. And so, I mean, I suppose it’s inevitable, the sense of fear, panic. I mean, were all those pain. I mean, all those thoughts, physical and emotional all running through your mind in those first minutes and hours.

Chris L:
All of it. Yeah, a helicopter was called in, and they actually airlifted me to a hospital in Indianapolis, which was about half an hour away. I think when it really hit me was the next day when I had woken up out of surgery because they had gone under. They had reconstructed my neck. But the next the next morning when I woke up from surgery is the first time that I had fallen asleep and really woken back up to the reality. And I was on a ventilator. I had this tube down my throat that was breathing for me because my lungs were partially paralyzed. I can remember waking up… And the whole time I was totally conscious, even the moment I was injured. Nothing happened to my brain. I was never knocked unconscious. I was thinking and talking the way I am now. But that’s when it really hit me, was this the rest of my life?

Chris L:
It’s really the emotions that run through your mind not only not moving again. So many people think about, “Oh, yeah, I’ll never walk again.” But once you’re introduced to what it’s like being a quadriplegic where you need people to arrange your limbs. You need to so you don’t get bedsores. You need someone to cath you because you’d have no bowel and bladder function. And you are completely 100% dependent on everything. I get introduced to that part of the world in those early days and weeks in the ICU and in the hospital. And you think your life’s over. At the age of 28 I thought my life was over. And particularly as family and friends, they come visiting. It very much felt like I was living through my own weight. It was hard. Obviously, it goes without saying.

Warwick F:
What you’re saying is obviously the pain is one thing, but for somebody that was so active, the sense of the active Chris Leeuw is no more. The kayaking, the wakeboarding, the even newspaper reporting. I mean, it’s obviously possible in this day and age, but you’re just thinking, “Gosh,” I think of, I’m sure you’re familiar Joni Eareckson Tada who was paralyzed in a diving accident on the late ’60s, I don’t know at 16, 17, and she’s a person of faith and just had a radio show since. I don’t know if it’s 50 plus years that she’s been a quadriplegic and she was a horse rider and her life was permanently changed.

Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, I’ve read her book, listened to her story. It takes hours to get out of bed and hours to get ready for bed and there’s people helping her whole life. Obviously, fortunately, your trajectory changed a bit but that’s feeling of helplessness. People mean well and gee, Chris, how can I help you? What can I do for you? That’s very kind of them. They’re probably feeling I don’t want people to have to help me. I want to do this myself. Thank you for offering but all that niceness and kindness and helping you it probably some weird way was a bit depressing. Does that make any kind of sense?

Chris L:
It does. Suddenly, you need people to feed you and you need people to… You can’t even be upright in bed without your blood pressure dropping. All these little things happen when you’re quadriplegic. Helplessness is a very big… I felt completely helpless. Not only physically, but also just where my life was going to be going from that point on. Depending on the age of some of your listeners, if they’re in the older generation, you think back to when they were aged 28 and maybe in the beginning of having a family and all that and the beginning of a career and having a life in front of you, and all of a sudden having it snuffed out. Or if you’re a younger person now, think about right now, you think you have a problem now. You’re complaining about something. Well, all of that could change in the next 10 minutes, and that’s something that when all those thoughts are flooding your mind early on. Like I mentioned before, I 100% thought that my life was over.

Warwick F:
Yeah, and just hard to imagine how could I have a life as a quadriplegic? I mean, it’s not easy. It’s possible but at that moment it must have felt like as you say, life is over. So there’s the whole physically what do I do and we’ll get into your journey here very shortly, because that’s fascinating. But there’s also the recrimination side. It’s easy objectively to look to say, “Look, two young guys, they jump off things happen.” If it’s not you it’s easy to be objective and say, “Look, yeah, maybe it wasn’t the smartest thing to be up 50 foot, but plenty of people do that. The water was deep. It wasn’t that crazy.” So, if you’re not you, you can look at it objectively. But did you look back and get angry at yourself, angry at this person you didn’t know that jumped at the same time? Were there some self recrimination or anger at others? Was that any part of the whole mix of emotions in there?

Chris L:
I was very mad at myself. I was very mad at myself. Nothing toward the other person. In fact, he’s the one that saved my life because I almost drowned. I don’t mean this in any sort of exaggeration. I was maybe within a few seconds of drowning. That’s how long that I was face down floating. Yeah, I just beat up myself for like I said earlier, just being so close to each other. I was like, “Why did I not think of that?” Yeah, there was particularly, and a lot of a lot of those early days in the hospital. The nights were always the worst early on. When I moved to the hospital, I moved to the rehabilitation hospital, and even into the nursing home. My friends and family were around me all the time. But a lot of times at night, when I was there by myself, and I could do nothing but stare up at the ceiling. And just trying to comprehend what had happened as the weeks went by.

Chris L:
I think it’s okay to wallow in some of those situations, in any struggle you go through in life. But at some point you definitely have to move on. It takes a while to do that, particularly. And I know for my situation that as I was learning about my injury, and it’s been 11 years and part of me still wallows in some of the things that I can’t do anymore because I still do have a lot of… I still live with my injury quite a bit. But yes, that was a very long winded answer. But yes, there was definitely a lot of beating myself up.

Gary S:
Can I jump in and say something from the sheet that you gave us, Chris, because it goes to exactly the point that you’re talking about right now. And it’s interesting because you were 28, and Warwick when you went through your crucible with the takeover that’s roughly the age you were. And I know you went through some of that self recrimination stuff as well. But you said something, Chris, that dovetails off what you just said to us in your sheet that you gave us which was this. Everyone will encounter a devastating struggle in life. One person’s struggle can’t be compared to another’s. But whatever you encounter, you cannot let it define you. You can’t dwell. Find the fortitude to move on, and you will.

Gary S:
I think I’m hearing you, obviously, your experience and where you are now, what we’re going to get into as Warwick asks you more questions here in a bit is going to show that and Warwick listeners already know that’s your story as well. You had some struggle at the same age and you were able to move on. So again, we have this conversation a lot on this show. The details of your crucible can be different. And listener, you may not have become a quadriplegic in a “freakish accident.” And you certainly may not have lost a multi-billion dollar family media company, but the emotions behind them as you listen to Chris talk and you’ve heard Warwick talk, those emotions of man, I messed up. Man, I should have done that differently. Those emotions are legit. Those emotions are common, and you can get beyond them. These two gentlemen have proven that.

Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, Gary, so well said. I mean, it’s as you said, you can’t compare crucibles and what I went through, I feel like it’s nothing compared to what Chris has gone through and the physical emotional pain. But yet, yeah, I mean, listeners will have gone through all sorts of different crucibles. And it’s true. I mean, when I think of my life altering moment it was late March 1982 when I launched this $2 billion takeover. Once I pushed that button, life was never going to be the same. It caused a lot of friction within my family saying, “Why do you need to do that?” I was young, and idealistic thought, as listeners know, management needed to be changed, brought back to the ideals of the founder.

Warwick F:
Doesn’t really matter so much whether that was right or wrong, but it was life altering, and we’re fine financially. But I don’t live in Australia anymore. I mean, it’s just my wife’s American, which is very public. And still to this day there are times in which I look back and say, “I mean, I had an undergrad degree at Oxford, a Harvard Business School degree. How could I have been so stupid in doing that takeover? I mean, what a moron. I mean, why did I do it? Look, I’ve had decades to move on and I love what I do with Crucible Leadership, but it’s easy to be angry at yourself, or maybe little, slightly angry at other family members because if the family had been more together, maybe it wouldn’t have felt it was necessary. But it’s that sense of just trying to force yourself to move on.

Warwick F:
There’ll always be days when you reflect and think a bit about the terrible day. And again, I’m not trying to compare because what you went through is far more pain in a lot of ways, but yeah, no, I get what you’re saying, Gary, and it’s well said. So talk about you are in the hospital for I think a number of months, and that didn’t last forever. You’re making small progress. So, you went through a lot of mini-crucibles a lot of after that big one, a lot of steps. I mean, how did you have the perseverance just to want to not give up because it’s clear to me, you never gave up on life. You never said I’m not going to just sit here, I’m going to do whatever I can to get maximum recovery, whatever that might mean, right? How did you have that kind of determination to just keep trying?

Chris L:
I think… Well, first off a little bit, I’ll give you a very brief spinal cord injury 101, which is when I was hurt I knew nothing about it either. You assume you have a spinal cord injury and that’s it. But every injury is totally different. Same with a brain injury, same with a stroke. You don’t know how much damage has been done to your nervous system and mine was significant, clearly, because here I was several weeks out of my injury. And as the months rolled by, I’m still a quadriplegic, but I started getting very small bits of movement back within the first week or so below where my injury happened. I could start to twitch a couple muscles like I’d start to flex. I remember my very first muscle I could move was my inner thigh consciously. And that was a huge sign because that meant that, okay, there was some signals that my brain was going that was think about your spinal cord injury is like a bruise on your spinal cord, like a beaver dam or something. And all of a sudden, nothing can go through that.

Chris L:
Well, there was some signals going through that. Doctors would tell me, my therapist would tell me, we don’t know if that’s all you’re going to get back, or if more will come. But the bottom line is, you need a lot of time. And over the course of I was in my rehabilitation hospital where I was getting daily physical therapy, occupational therapy, even speech therapy, because I had to learn how to breathe again in a lot of ways. Of course, my lungs are paralyzed. I was getting that every single day. And I was getting movement back. Little bits of movement back and after two months, I could actually move my foot a little bit. I could move some fingers, that was about it. I started realizing that I had potential. But all of a sudden, in spite of a really fantastic insurance plan through my employer. I was working at a communications company at the time, insurance was capped.

Chris L:
Insurance said, “You have been in this rehabilitation hospital for a while.” I was there longer than most. Now, the average stay at a rehabilitation hospital insurance covered in the US is about two weeks. I was there for two months, which was longer than most, but still insurance basically capped. And we were fighting it all along the way. I think my first denial came within a couple of weeks they said that I had plateaued. That’s the key word in that industry. When you plateau, okay your recovery is stopping now, we got to get you home. And then what I found out was a lot of the rehabilitation I was doing was to get me home quicker because they said, “Okay, you need to get fitted for a power wheelchair. You need to make sure your home is adaptive. You need to make sure that your caregivers know how to cath you and feed you and arrange your limbs. That became the care, which is very important, but it stopped becoming necessarily working on recovery.

Warwick F:
Does it almost feel like the insurance is more geared for the insurance company to get you out of hospital and free a bed for somebody else? They wanted to recover, but it does feel like the insurance company’s agenda and your agenda was not totally the same?

Chris L:
A little bit. Yeah, because, I mean, I think insurance companies look at the statistics that I was a C4 spinal cord injury. And after a couple of weeks out of my injury, they say, “Look, this guy he’s got to get home, he can’t be in rehabilitation forever.” The healthcare costs are astronomical. So they move people home very quickly. And that’s really the way it is for a lot of really serious injuries.

Warwick F:
It may be valid and rational from the seat where they sit with actuarial tables and all and data, and you obviously got to make some decision. But from your perspective, I think you were there eight weeks. You hadn’t given up. You were showing signs of improvement, you didn’t want to stop.

Chris L:
That was the irony. The irony was I was slowly getting to the point where I could have used more of all these tools I saw in the therapy gym that I couldn’t use when I first got there because I was nothing but a head on a pillow. I started being able to move some things that okay, now I can maybe participate in more aggressive rehabilitation, but nope, sorry, I had to be discharged. And the option was to come back for outpatient therapy a couple times a week. I think for about a month or go to a nursing home. And at that time we chose a nursing home because I could still get some daily physical therapy, occupational therapy there. That was a very difficult decision because nursing homes didn’t know how to care for quadriplegic. But my parents, my family and friends, I was very fortunate in that regard. They were at my side every day to help me through that was that as I discharged to a nursing home. I was at a nursing home for about another four months.

Warwick F:
And they were willing to help you, work with you, learn what they needed to learn, and it felt like you made more progress over those months in the nursing home. It may not have been ideal, but you made more progress.

Chris L:
I did. I made some more progress because more time had passed, and I was still getting daily therapy. So six months after my injury, I couldn’t move my arms at all, but I actually could actually… I could start to move. I could start to sit up in bed, and I could actually stand and you’re talking about six months after a spinal cord injury. Now six months seems like an awful long time, and it was when you’re rehabbing from that. But in the course of a spinal cord injury after being paralyzed from the neck down after six months being able to actually take a couple steps. Those were huge.

Warwick F:
It must have felt like a miracle. I mean, each step, each finger being able to move it must have felt like you’d won the Super Bowl or something. There was a sense I can’t believe it. I did something else today.

Chris L:
It was and again I absolutely celebrated those wins. But at the same time, you never knew when it was going to stop. I was always like, “Hey, is this it?” I would always also be a little upset because I wasn’t getting more. Because in my mind, I just wanted to start running again. And I wanted to move my arms again and feed myself again. I couldn’t do any of those things.

Warwick F:
And you never know if tomorrow is going to be when you hit that brick wall in which 40 years will go by and you’ll never be able to move anything more than where you are, right?

Chris L:
It’s just a slow, slow process and you need so much aggressive rehabilitation for a long time.

Warwick F:
So how did you move from the nursing home because I think at some point you went to Neuroworx? Talk about what happened after the whole nursing home. You were there for months, making some improvement, but that I guess you felt like there needed to be a change or a change was forced upon you?

Chris L:
Yes. Well, I was actually booted out of the nursing home. I was actually then booted out of the nursing home for insurance, too, for the same reason. At that point, I was still in a wheelchair. But I had heard shortly after I was injured I had heard about this place in Salt Lake City, Utah called Neuroworx through a person I had worked with. And this was a place started by a physician named Dr. Dale Hull and a physical therapist named Jan Black. Dr. Hull had the same sort of injury I did and recognized there was a giant need. He worked with his therapist and they started this small little clinic that was aimed toward helping people after insurance was up and a place where you can go long term. They created Neuroworx. I was hurt in 2010. Neuroworx had already been around for a while. They were still relatively small. But that’s when I got to the point in the nursing home where I said, “Okay, maybe I can actually go across the country to this place because I knew I still need more rehabilitation.” I wasn’t even close to being done yet.

Chris L:
And then we realized, okay, maybe we could do that. So my mother and I, my mother was my caregiver. We flew across the country to Salt Lake City, Utah, and there was a small little apartment that had been donated to Neuroworx at the time. And my mother and I basically lived there in this little apartment, and we went to the Neuroworx every day, Monday through Friday, multiple hours a day for almost two years.

Warwick F:
Did insurance cover that or?

Chris L:
No, that that was the beauty of what Neuroworx was, was that if your insurance is up, and you want to self pay for a physical therapy visit, it usually costs $300 to $400 for an hour.

Warwick F:
Oh, my gosh.

Chris L:
That’s not affordable when you need hours a day for a year.

Warwick F:
No, no.

Chris L:
But Neuroworx would make it more affordable, and then they would fundraise to offset those costs. So my family did do a lot of fundraising to get out there. And we were definitely blessed by at the time I was working for a company called ChaCha, which was started by a man named Scott A. Jones who’s an entrepreneurial voicemail fame that had a lot of startup companies, and a very generous man that actually helped pay for me to get out there. And my family did some fundraising, too. But over the course of a year and a half, we basically self paid out of pocket, but at a very cheap rate. It wasn’t like-

Warwick F:
I mean, the fact… I mean, what would life have been like if there was no Neuroworx? They had both the technology, the training, and it was at least somewhat affordable. Your life would have been radically different, right?

Chris L:
It absolutely would have changed my life. Well, first thing it wasn’t the more rehabilitation that cured my spinal cord injury. But it was the fact that it turned out there was less damage to my spinal cord. But also it still took that access for a long time, and the care I received there. The first time I walked into Neuroworx at the time was the first time I’d ever seen this body weight support treadmill system and electrical stimulation machines, they had a pool therapy. They had these different resources that wasn’t available in a lot of other clinics because they realize that they’re expensive. Sometimes it takes multiple clinicians to use them properly, which is more money for the hospital systems. And to benefit, you need to be doing them for a long time. And when insurance only covers a certain amount of time, they say, “Okay, you’re not going to be able to have time to do this, let’s not even offer it.” And the care becomes what insurance will allow rather than what the patient needs.

Chris L:
Neuroworx saw this, I saw this and over the course of two years, every single day, hours a day relearning to walk, relearning to move my hands. Over the course of that time, I slowly but surely got to where I am now. I’m ambulatory now. I can walk. I still have some paralysis on my left side. But after two years in the spring of 2012, I actually drove myself all the way back home from Salt Lake City to Indianapolis, and I had sort of “beat” paralysis in a way. I had regained bowel and bladder function. I was walking again. If you would have told me that two years ago when the whole dream was, am I ever going to move again? And all of a sudden here I was walking again, it was very surreal. It took place over the course of two years, but it was still very surreal. We leaving Salt Lake City after two years.

Warwick F:
So, that experience really changed your life. It’s patient focus, they have the technology, the training. I mean, your sense of hope, which I mean, somehow through this whole journey even in those darkest days it felt like we unfortunately talk about this, you can wallow and say, “I’m angry, I’m bitter. And I’m just going to sit here for the next 40, 50 years.” Whether you’re paralyzed or emotionally paralyzed, or just feeling down about yourself, maybe you’re a victim of abuse. There’s a lot of reasons objectively it could be valid to wallow, but you never were like that. You just kept pushing and I’m guessing once you’re in Neuroworx your sense of optimism and hope and say, “This stuff is really working. I’ve got the training. I’ve got the support. I’m going to get some level of movement back, some level of my life back.”

Warwick F:
So, I want to talk a bit about NeuroHope. Not everybody has this sense of determination and hope. Where did that come from? I mean, is it family, or what? Maybe within you? I mean, over all these years, you kept pushing and trying, you never gave up. Where did that come from?

Chris L:
That’s a hard question to answer, I guess. I mean, I think what I experienced there, what I experienced just through my process, through the healthcare system, and then through how fortunate I was to actually beat paralysis when so many others can’t. Sometimes it’s because their injury is more severe, sometimes it’s because they may not have the access. It just really inspired me so much, and my family, too. My whole family involved. These injuries affect entire families. And collectively it just came to the point where when your life’s at stake is the way I felt, I’m going to do anything I possibly can to try to get it back. And that’s what I would constantly be reminding myself of, even in the early days, when I was lay at night focusing on some movement. I was like, “Okay, I’m just going to keep moving this foot, I’m going to keep moving this foot, I’m going to try to keep moving this arm, moving this arm.” I became borderline obsessed with the physiology of the injury and my chances of recovery.

Warwick F:
I almost wonder as I’m listening to you, your mindset, your whole life has been be active, go for it, don’t sit still. Maybe that served you well, in some ways, because you weren’t somebody to sit there and do nothing. So if you’re in rehab, you’re going to be going for it. You’re going to be as active as you can. Does that make sense? You have this never sit still mindset, and maybe in some ways that served you. I’m not going to just sit here. I’m going to twitch a muscle as much as I can and twitch the next muscle and may not be much, but I don’t know, I wonder whether your inherent active mindset helped you out there in some ways?

Chris L:
I think it certainly did. And we see the same thing with a lot of clients and patients that come that I rehab with. I mean, you really have to. It’s like you can’t just… It’s not up to the therapists. You have to have it in yourself as well to push yourself.

Warwick F:
You’ve got to make a decision that I’m not going to let this beat me. I’m going to do my level best to recover. I’m not going to be angry at myself. You obviously had to… It sounds a bit ridiculous, but you had to forgive yourself, even though objectively people say, “What’s there to forgive? He was young. People do that all the time.” But still, you were clearly angry at yourself, which objectively doesn’t feel that valid. But you had to do that. Because if you were… That bitterness could have held you back in your recovery. So you had to let go of the bitterness, I’m guessing or angry at yourself?

Chris L:
Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. I mean, I’m still mad at myself sometimes.

Warwick F:
There you go.

Chris L:
But I see what you’re saying, yeah. There were times where I’d be mad at myself and times where I said, “Okay, I got to swallow hard, and…

Warwick F:
You know what they say, what holds you back doesn’t serve you. So, it doesn’t serve you.

Gary S:
I can sense we’re going to shift gears and go into the creation of NeuroHope. But as we do that, as an on ramp, Chris, I want to refer to a little snippet of conversation we had before we pressed record on this conversation when you were talking about your crucibles. And you mentioned obviously your accident was a main crucible, the main crucible, but a secondary one was okay, now, what do I do with my life? And what we’ve seen, and I think this is going to bear out as you tell the story of NeuroHope we see this happen a lot. It happened for Warwick. The idea that your crucible can give birth to your life of significance can give birth to what you do out of that crucible.

Gary S:
Warwick goes through this failure that consumes a continent in that it’s all over Australia. And what does he do? He creates a philosophical and practical consultancy that helps people overcome failure and setback. You not only dealt with paralysis, but dealt with some issues around that like insurance, and how do you pay for it? And how do you do that? It seems to me it’s probably fair to say that out of your crucible, as you figure what do I do next, your life of significance, your vision for what was next came in large part because of that crucible, is that fair?

Chris L:
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, recovering from paralysis and what am I going to do as a quadriplegic was one life changing moment. But even early on, I never in a million years would have thought I would have created a clinic to help people. I was just thinking about will I ever walk again, if I get my life back in that regard. But when I came back home, two years after my injury triumphantly defeating paralysis. It’s like, okay, well, now what? I didn’t have a job anymore. I didn’t have… I was living with my sister. And I was still, most people would consider me disabled even now. So I can walk, I walk with a severe limp. I still don’t have use of my left arm. I’m very weak. I can only lift maybe 10 pounds. I still have a lot of significance for my injury. So, I still am a disabled person. And you never think that that’s ever going to happen to you.

Chris L:
So now I here I was back home again. Well, it’s like, “Okay, my life for two years was overcoming paralysis.” Well, now all of a sudden, it’s like I was home again, it’s like, okay, things are different. Now what? And that’s when I think, I guess the second crucible happened because I really… My whole family and I… Again, I mention my family. It really was a family affair. We just said let’s try to do what we experienced in Neuroworx. Why is there not a place like this in our community? Indianapolis is a big city with great healthcare providers. But there’s a very real void in care, and can we do something to address it. And that’s sort of where I made a big sacrifice. I was 30 years old, and I ended up living with my sister at a time when a lot of people when they’re 30, are starting to launch a career and have a family and do all those things.

Chris L:
I started a non-for-profit, not really knowing what we were going to do at first. It was going to like, let’s try to raise funds for maybe the local rehabilitation hospital. But I drew no salary, I live rent free with my sister, and that’s what I did. I had a part time job with a company that gave me a little bit of income. But over the course of the next couple years, we created a nonprofit, and then really tried to say, “Okay, is this possible?” Can we actually create some sort of a clinic? And the University of Indianapolis was the first group that really saw the vision I think early on. I thought maybe we could partner with them in some way. And then the major turning point was I met a physical therapist by the name of Nora Foster, who had come from the spinal cord world at a rehabilitation hospital. I met her, and she, from her perspective, from a clinician’s perspective, said, “Yeah, there’s a big void in here. We got to create something.”

Chris L:
And then when I met her, and we started launching, I’d already created the nonprofit. I’d already raised the same significant amount of money, and I didn’t know what we were going to do with it. That’s when we realized, okay, let’s do this on our own. We started in a very small, tiny room that was given to us rent free from the University of Indianapolis. We had nothing but a therapy mat, and Nora saw some of her first patients that had been discharged. And at that point we didn’t know we’re going to charge very affordable rates, and that was the point, the continuum of care for people. We had no spinal cord injury equipment, we needed some. I tell the story where I got my car, and I drove all the way to headquarters of a place called New Step where they make recumbent stepping machines for people with disabilities.

Chris L:
I kind of told the story and a piece to them and got a New Step donated to us. And then I drove to Minnesota to try to get the standing frame for people paralysis to get donate to us, and that worked as well. So then all of a sudden we had a couple two pieces of a rehab center in this little tiny room, and this was back in 2015. We started the reality of a center, some semblance of a little bit of a center began.

Warwick F:
To me, it’s just incredible because as you’re driving back from Utah, you could have said, “Okay, I’m still disabled, but I’m a lot more functional. Maybe I could do TV reporting, print journalism.” Certainly, I would have thought you might be able to do or some kind of communications field. I can go back to maybe not my total old life, but parts of it. You could have gone that track, some kind of communications. But maybe it’s obvious, I don’t know, but what led you to say, “Okay, that was my old life. But I don’t know that I want to go back to it. I want to use what I’ve been through to help others.” I mean, maybe it sounds obvious to people in hindsight, but life is never that obvious. Why did you choose this track rather than some other track?

Chris L:
It’s a good question. I started getting involved in some volunteer work when I was in my early 20s. And one of them was in your area of the world, in Australia. I still consider one of the best experiences of my life. Surely, and I’ll be pretty honest.

Warwick F:
It’s all good.

Chris L:
So, shortly after I graduated college, I kind of going back to what I said earlier, I was always on the go. I always wanted to do things and then see, experience things in life. I was with a group of students, total strangers, but we lived basically in the bush in New South Wales near a town called Bermagui. And there was this wildlife center. It was the very beginning of this conservation camp. So we basically lived with no power, no running water, but we were starting to build this student conservation camp, which now… This was in 2004, years later it’s been created. But that was one of the first experiences that I had really started to do something that was bigger than myself, and been involved in something for a community and doing something that just felt more meaningful.

Chris L:
And then a year after that, I was living in Portland, Maine. I was working as a lobster fisherman in Portland, Maine and Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. And it was sort of the same thing where I actually enrolled a bunch of classes with the American Red Cross, and I actually went down to New Orleans in the middle of after Hurricane Katrina for a month and helped with some water distribution routes there. It became kind of… I don’t know… It was something where I think maybe back then the years before my injury, I always sort of started realizing doing something more meaningful, and then fast forward to my injury and what I went through, then all of a sudden, it was a cause that hit me personally, and I just had the whole, to use another journalism term, the fire in the belly to do something.

Chris L:
Then all of a sudden, and my family was the same way. My sister had run nonprofits before in the past. She remains a big part of NeuroHope, and then together we just said, “We have to do this. We have to do this for the community.” And that’s, so I think, that’s always sort of been in me too, a little bit to do something bigger than myself and now all of a sudden this gave me a vehicle to try to do that. But if I had great backing and support, and sacrificing initiative to do it all.

Warwick F:
One of the things we find in Crucible Leadership a lot and in my own life I find this, the crucibles you go through, they’re never fun what you went through was excruciating, physically, emotionally, mentally, soul destroying, something that could have been. But yet, somehow, when you use what you’ve been through to help others, it doesn’t make it all better but it gives… I know that you’ve obviously heard this a million times pain for a purpose. The pain never goes away. You’ve got life altering injuries, which will never totally go away. But yet, when you make meaning out of it somehow in some small way it makes life a little bit easier, a little bit purposed. Does that make any kind of sense? This is not an original thought, but by making meaning of what you went through, was that also a step in your at least emotional, spiritual recovery, if you will?

Chris L:
Yes. It gives you perspective on life that you wouldn’t have… That I wouldn’t have ever had, had I not gone through what I went through. Whether that’s appreciation for things. I was always appreciative. I don’t want to make it sound like I wasn’t, but it’s one of those things where it’s like you put struggles into perspective. You put things that have value in life into perspective. Whatever your crucible is kind of what you mentioned earlier, Gary, whether it’s a divorce that may shake you to your core, or whether it’s the death of someone, a loved one that may shake you to your core, whether it’s losing your business. You go through those trials in life. And when you come out on the other side, you never would have had that perspective of how your life can move forward if it never would have happened.

Gary S:
That sound you just heard listeners is the captain turning down the fasten seatbelt sign indicating it’s getting close to the time to land the plane. Before we do that, however, I would be remiss, Chris, if I did not give you the opportunity to let listeners know how they can find out more about you and about NeuroHope.

Chris L:
Yes, so NeuroHope, you can google us, NeuroHope, N-E-U-R-O NeuroHope. Plenty will come up but our website is neurohopewellness.org, and we’re also on Instagram at NeuroHope. We have a lot of inspiring patient stories there. I had talked about how in the beginning we were a small clinic but now I have a staff of nine and we’re a hybrid. We’re a mixture where we do physical therapy, we also do wellness. And we have an amazing group of staff and we’re helping a lot of people, not only in the rehabilitation part, but in wellness and fitness for people that are recovering from injuries and that live with paralysis.

Gary S:
Warwick, I’ll let you get the last question. But I want to ask one question off of Chris’s form that he gave us because it’s interesting, and I can tell you’re an old journalist, Chris, because there’s a question that we have on here. If we could only ask you what question, what would you want it to be? And you had a great question here. I’d love to hear it, and I’m sure our listeners would love to hear the answer. What are you most grateful for in the journey that we’ve just talked about?

Chris L:
I actually just answered it.

Gary S:
Fantastic.

Chris L:
Perspective. It was the perspective that my life and injury has made me aware of because I wouldn’t have had it before. Like I said, I still mourn parts of my own life. I wish I could play the drums again. I wish I could get on some water skis and snow skis again. I wish I could run again and play basketball again. I can’t do any of those things. But the perspective on life that I have now prior to my injury is something that I never would have had if I didn’t go through what I’ve been through.

Warwick F:
Wow. Well, Chris, thank you so much for being here. Your story is inspiring. I mean, you’ve got the inspiration that others who have been injured physically that never giving up. You never know where your plateau is. It could be where people think it is, or it could be beyond. Until you try you never know. So there’s the whole physical side. But there’s the emotional and spiritual comeback of realizing your life from a career perspective, or in general wasn’t over. You used your pain to help others get the benefit of what you went through.

Warwick F:
I think what listeners hopefully appreciate is pretty sure that your life, despite the physical challenges has joy in it when you get to work with patients and you get to see maybe that one twitch of a finger, or a thigh muscle, and they have hope. And they’re getting better day by day. That’s got to fill you with, I’m making a difference in people’s lives. I’m giving them opportunities they might not have had, otherwise. And so, when you spend your life for a cause you believe in, in service of others. I mean, that does add joy to your life. I mean, is that a fair summary of how you feel and your experience with NeuroHope and what you do now?

Chris L:
Yes, I see a lot of people that have had journeys similar to mine that our team works with every day. And our team is unbelievable. The therapist and the trainers we have, you watch how they work with patients day in and day out and how much they care, and how much they impact our patients’ lives. It’s remarkable. It’s definitely one of those things sometimes where you sit back and realize what NeuroHope has grown thanks to the staff, and the group that we’ve gone around the lives, they’ve changed is something that is pretty remarkable.

Gary S:
And also remarkable is the perfect landing of the plane that that comment brought us to, Chris. Thank you for that. Before we go though listener, there are three I think takeaways from today’s conversation with Chris Leeuw that I think we can all think about as we move on. Number one, engage your tribe. Chris hadn’t even given the details of his own life changing crucible in this discussion before he mentioned what a help his family has always been to him pre-crucible and post-crucible and he talked about it several times throughout this discussion. When setbacks and failures strike lean into those close to you, friends and family for comfort, pep talks, logistical and motivational assistance. It worked for Warwick in his case, it worked for Chris in his story that he just told, and pretty much every guest we’ve had on the show.

Gary S:
The second point and I’m going to… I’ve written this second point out with each word has a period after it so I slow it down when I say it because Chris made this point in his sheet that he gave to us. He also made it in our conversation. And that point is this. Do not let your crucible define you. There’s a season to dwell on your setback or failure, for sure. But don’t let it become nuclear winter. Don’t let it go on forever and be bleak forever. As Chris counsels, find the fortitude to move on, and you will. Give yourself time to heal and mourn if you need it. But also be sure to find some reasons to hope because we can guarantee you’re going to need that hope to move on beyond your crucible.

Gary S:
And the third point would be this, your vision for a life of significance after a crucible could very well be grown out of your crucible itself. From the perspective, as Chris pointed out that his crucible gave him came this life of significance of NeuroHope. We’ve seen this happen over and over again in the guests that we’ve talked to. In Warwick’s own story, we’ve seen that happen. The same thing happened to Chris. He worked hard to come back from paralysis. And now he advocates to help others come back from paralysis and raise money to help them do so. That is the very definition of a life of significance.

Gary S:
And speaking of a life of significance listeners, thank you for spending time with us. And we would ask that you remember that we understand as you understand that your crucible experiences are difficult, they are painful, they are traumatic. They can as we say, and as Chris says, change the trajectory of your lives. But here is the fantastic news, they are not the end of your story. They were not the end of Chris Leeuw’s story. They’re not the end of Warwick Fairfax’s story. They’re not the end of your story. They can be if you learn the lessons of them, if you internalize the perspective of them, they can be not the end of your story, but the beginning of a new chapter in your story that leads to the most rewarding conclusion you can possibly imagine. And that is a life of significance.

Your soul is the you that you don’t have to think about, where your essence, your truest self, lives. But how do you discover what your soul reveals about you? More important, how can drawing on the insights you find there help you bounce back from a crucible and lead a life of significance? Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax and cohost Gary Schneeberger take a deep dive into those questions, offering up 7 ways to live with your soul top of mind. The beliefs, values and passions you find there, Warwick says, will allow you to begin living your legacy today.

To learn more about The One Thing Core Values Deck discussed in this episode, visit www.the1thing.com/shop/corevaluesdeck/

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Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

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Transcript

Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. If you’re doing something that’s not in line with your dreams, aspirations, skills, your personality, whether it’s personally and professional, what tends to happen is, the more you ignore who you truly are in your soul that leads you into the desert. There are these words that people have used, like the land of smoldering discontent. Day by day, you die. Your inner self dies and your passions, and you become just this almost like this robot, this hollow man, hollow woman of just nothing. There are people that they don’t feel joy or pain. They’re just numb. They’re just numb to life.

Gary S:
Wow! That sounds pretty depressing. Doesn’t it? But don’t worry. This week’s episode is all about how you can avoid what Warwick just described. It’s a roadmap for how you can, as he puts it, begin living your legacy today and the joy and fulfillment you’ll find when you do. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. Pull up a chair or listen wherever it is you may be multitasking as we discuss how to live in a way that’s true to the real you, the inner you that is aligned with your essence, your soul.

Gary S:
We cover seven practical steps in all, each one, a stone to lay in the road that will carry you to your life of significance.

Gary S:
Listener, we have a great show today. We always know it’s going to be a great show when we’re not exactly sure what we’re going to call it. Whatever name was on this podcast before you clicked play, we’ve thought of after we’ve recorded it, because we don’t know exactly what to call it yet. A working title at some point was soul work, but Warwick explain to folks what it is that we’re going to be traversing today, the subjects that we’re going to be talking about.

Warwick F:
Yeah. Soul is an interesting word. I think we often talk on Beyond the Crucible, and indeed, as part of Crucible Leadership as, how do you live a life of significance? We talk about, well, it starts with how you’re designed and wired, and your skills, abilities, and talents, and then lining them up with your fundamental beliefs and values, finding a vision that you’re off the charts passionate about, getting a team together and living a life of significance. That’s all good and that’s all true, but one of the things I think we’ve come up against in chatting to guests and in reflection is there’s something maybe beyond just wiring and design.

Warwick F:
It’s our inner essence, our soul, and what is that? I mean, in a sense, philosophers and religions and spiritual folks have been talking about the word soul for probably thousands of years. It’s not a new topic. The sense of a soul is it makes you, you. Every human being that’s ever lived has a unique soul. It’s a combination of wiring, but more than that, personality, perspective, passions, characteristics, quirks. It’s what makes you as a conscious human being. Human beings have consciousness. So, what makes you, you?

Warwick F:
For want of a better word, and as I said, theologians and philosophers have been talking about it for thousands of years, it’s your soul, it’s who you are. We wanted to chat about what is soul and how do you get more in touch with it? And how do you live your life more in touch with your soul? If a soul is who you are, shouldn’t you be paying attention to it and living in light of it?

Gary S:
Right. Two points based on what you just said. We were talking about what to cover during the show here, and something popped in my head that I said that your soul is the you that you don’t have to think hard about. It’s the you that is just you. It just kind of comes out, and to make your point about the thousands of years that talk of soul has been waged, I found a quote that goes back to Aristotle, who said this, “The soul is the first activation of the potentiality for life that is in organic, physical, or natural bodies.”

Gary S:
Back in Aristotle’s time, back when people only had one name a piece, they were talking about the importance of soul as it pertains to how you live your life.

Warwick F:
Yeah, and that’s true. I mean, it’s funny in the Christian tradition and others, you talk about the body may die, but the soul doesn’t. The sense of the soul being eternal, which is a hard thing to get your head around, that’s not an uncommon thought within religious and spiritual tradition. This concept of eternity and soul, it’s a fascinating topic. It’s not easy to understand, to be honest, but it’s an important one of understanding, what is a soul and what does that mean? Do I know what mine is, and how do I live in light of who I truly am? While it may be difficult, I don’t think these are questions you want to ignore.

Gary S:
Right. It’s a critical aspect of Crucible Leadership, because when we describe crucibles, there’s a lot of words you can use for a crucible experience. It was devastating, it was life-changing, it was soul-crushing, is one of the things people use to describe a truly traumatic crucible. The idea, in the context of Crucible Leadership, this conversation, how do you get in touch with your soul? How do you sort of elucidate what’s in there? Your soul is that thing that gets crushed sometimes, that gets wounded, that gets battered when you go through a crucible experience. That’s fair, isn’t it?

Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, soul-crushing is a good word. If it’s soul-crushing, you must have something to be crushed. What is that thing that’s getting crushed? When you say to somebody, boy, was that soul-crushing. He said, I’ll absolutely, but why? Why was it soul-crushing? What was it that got crushed? And how do you maybe stop it getting uncrushed or revamped, redeemed, if you will? Yeah, it’s an important question. I think most people, whether they’re religious or not, have a sense that they have a soul. They have an inner essence that’s beyond just wiring and gifts.

Warwick F:
It’s more than that. It’s deeper than that. It matters hugely. People intuitively have a sense that they have one and that it matters, even if they don’t fully understand it, because if philosophers and religions grapple with this subject, it can’t be easy.

Gary S:
Right. Now, although I often say I’m a word guy, so I’m definitely not a scientist, but I did, Warwick, a little bit of an archeological dig to find out, when’s the first time that this idea of doing soul work came up in Beyond the Crucible? I found in the March 10th podcast with Bryan Price. I remember the moment. I had to look up the date, but I remember kind of the moment and the discussion. You and Bryan Price, who’s a leadership … He runs something called the Buccino Leadership Institute at Seton Hall University.

Gary S:
One of the things he does is he has a crucible class with his students where they talk about their crucible experiences. But as that conversation was wrapping up, Bryan had talked a little bit about what he calls, what others call imposter syndrome. This idea that I don’t deserve the things that have happened to me. I’m an imposter. I’m living falsely in some way. I have a transcript from that end of that conversation, and this is what you said to Bryan Price when we were talking with him. “None of us are perfect. Getting over the whole imposter syndrome, I mean, that’s really important. It’s almost, I’d say soul work. To be really effective leaders, you’ve got start at the root.”

Gary S:
“That’s often at the soul level. You’ve got a good foundation at a soul self-image level, you’re going to be so much more effective and compassionate. You have a bunch of weeds or some issues at a soul level, you’ll find it very difficult to care for other people. So, you’re really dealing with what I’d call soul work.” That was the first time I remember you talking about the need to care for the soul. One of the things that we talked about is that you can’t really, because the soul is your essence, you can’t really sort of shape your soul or change your soul, but you can discover it. You can peel back layers of the onion to find out what’s in there, and then how do you manage those things that you find there?

Warwick F:
Yeah, I think that’s true. I mean, just understanding that you have one is important. I think you can nurture it and help it flourish. On the other hand, you can ignore that. Sometimes parents, maybe their kids went on a path that wasn’t helpful, whether it’s drugs or getting involved with people that lead them into a life of crime. You’ll hear parents say, Johnny or Mary, they’re a good person. They’ve just been around the wrong people and they’ve gone down the wrong path, but I think often the case, that’s often the case, of what is that soul? I think sometimes, and we’ll get into this, sometimes we ignore who we are and we live somebody else’s life or somebody else’s path and that direction lies misery.

Gary S:
Right. That’s part of your story. I mean, that’s a part of your story, the idea that as the fifth generation, heir to the family media dynasty, that’s what you were designed for by family fiat or however that worked, that was your role, and it didn’t take into consideration your talents, passions, things that you wanted to do, let alone, did you have the soul? Was your soul one to be a media tycoon? That was a question that no one ever asked and no one ever thought to ask, right?

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s true. I mean wiring and soul, it’s sort of interweaved. I’m basically a reflective advisor, probably more on the shy, introverted end of the spectrum, and to be this upfront leader where I’m having to make a hundred decisions before breakfast, the way that your average media tycoon does, and you’re responsible for thousands of people, I mean, that just wasn’t me, but yet, because growing up at 150-year old family media business and having dearly loved my parents and my father, I didn’t want to let them down, or let my dad down and ancestors. I found that I was trapped.

Warwick F:
I mean, I’ve mentioned on another podcast recently, it sounds like a strange analogy, but it’s almost like the Royal family. It’d be like asking Prince William, who is the heir apparent after his dad, Prince Charles, has he ever thought about doing something else? He would say, “Well, no,” because if he did, his father and grandmother would be devastated. So, the issue of, what does your soul want is irrelevant. Yeah, I mean, it never seemed to be an option, and the challenge is, when you’re living somebody else’s life, that can, maybe it’s not soul crushing, it erodes the soul. It starts getting eaten away. It’s almost like acid.

Warwick F:
It’s just sort of it erodes it. When you’re not helping your soul flourish, watering it, nurturing it, and letting weeds grow, it’s really almost a guaranteed path to misery. Happiness and joy and fulfillment won’t happen.

Gary S:
Right. The reason behind this podcast is that we’re about to turn a corner. We’ve already, if this were a court of law, we’ve entered into evidence, the fact that we have souls, and that living in line with those souls is important. I’ll finish this aspect of the discussion before we turn into seven ways to stay true to yourself, seven ways to live within the parameters, live out of your soul. Here’s a quote that summarizes a little bit of what you were just saying by the author, Daniel Defoe, wrote this. “The soul is placed in the body like a rough diamond, and must be polished or the luster of it will never appear.” What we’re going to talk about, these seven items that you’ve identified that are in a blog of yours, that if not already available at crucibleleadership.com, will soon be available at crucibleleadership.com, is basically things you can do to polish the diamond that is your soul, to make sure that that the luster of that essence is not lost.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, I think that’s true. Really, the first step is recognizing that you have a soul, that all humans have a soul, as we’ve been talking about, and in essence, that makes them different than any other human being. You need to ask the questions of, why was I put on this earth? What gives my life meaning? What are my passions? I mean, what is life about, and in particular, for me? And realize that you have a God given soul, at least from my perspective, and you have every right to live in line with it.

Warwick F:
One of the things that why this is so important, because a lot of people will say, oh, soul I don’t really get it. Who cares? I just want to get a job.

Gary S:
It sounds all oogity boogity.

Warwick F:
It’s all ethereal, and who cares? Let’s get a good job and do something that at least I don’t hate and enjoy the weekend and I just keep going, which is obviously, in the world of Crucible Leadership and life of significance, so we think life should be focused on others and for a higher purpose, but really at a soul level, it matters because if you’re doing something that’s not in line with your dreams, aspirations, skills, your personality, whether it’s personally and professional, what tends to happen is, the more you ignore who you truly are in your soul that leads you into the desert.

Warwick F:
There are these words that people have used, like the land of smoldering discontent, day by day you die, your inner self dies, and your passions, and you become just this, almost like this robot, this hollow man, hollow woman of just nothing. There are people that they don’t feel joy or pain. They’re just numb. They’re just numb to life. You don’t want to be this numb automaton that’s like, it’s given up and his soul has been crushed in this eternal purgatory of frustration. That’s what can happen if you ignore your soul and don’t live in light of it and listen to everybody else. You don’t want to be that person. That’s a land of pain, and you don’t want to be that person.

Gary S:
That is great advice for the listener and falls in line with another quote that I have that I found from, I don’t know why this is sort of the literary episode of Beyond the Crucible, but this is from the poet, Walt Whitman, who said exactly what you’re talking about. He said it this way, “Re-examine all that you have been told. Dismiss that which insults your soul.” Dismiss that which just does not feel right, does not feel like that’s what you’re supposed to do. Again, the reason we’re having this discussion on Beyond the Crucible for Crucible Leadership is because what you were just describing about living life as an automaton, that’s the antithesis of where crucible leadership aims to aim people, which is to a life of significance.

Gary S:
A life on purpose dedicated to serving others, where there’s joy and there’s happiness and there’s meaning, and to live outside or contrary to your soul is the opposite of that. It’s those things that Whitman says, insult your soul. Those are things we should dismiss from our soul.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. I may have got it wrong. It might be Thoreau, but I think somebody like that said, that people live lives of quiet desperation. They’re not yelling and screaming or crying, but it’s just, we all have known them. There’s just this deep inner sadness, and it gets worse as the decades go by and you feel sorry for them. Boy, they just seem, they don’t necessarily complain but they just seem unhappy at such a deep spiritual level. Maybe it comes out in sarcasm, maybe they’re negative, maybe they’re pessimist, but it’s just, there are always reasons. Maybe that drives them to substance abuse.

Warwick F:
I mean, I’m no expert, but people who get into substance abuse, there’s always a reason, and it’s probably a soul-crushing reason. These things matter. Anyway, I think we’ve probably outlined if you have a soul, why it matters.

Gary S:
Right. Lest you think listener that this is going to be a depressing, if you found that to be sort of a downer, we’re not trying to be a downer. The idea is to sort of set the stage for why is soul so important, and what Warwick’s talking about. That’s why this discussion is important, not just in general, but in the concept or in the construct of Crucible Leadership. This is an important conversation to have. Now we’re going to turn the corner and to help you understand ways to discover things that do not insult your soul. The first one of those is what, Warwick?

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, we’ve been talking about recognize you have a soul and we all have them. Hopefully listeners, you understand this now of, we have one and why it’s important. I think really, after you recognize that you have one, the next step is really to examine your fundamental beliefs. We live in a fast-paced world, technology, people are climbing the corporate ladder, and we typically, we don’t take time to think, who am I? What do I believe? What does it matter what I believe? Well, if you don’t know what you believe, how in the world can you figure out what your soul is and live in light of it? I mean, to make this practical, you can say, okay, great, I have a soul, but I have no idea what that is, and what do I do with it?

Warwick F:
The first step is, we all have beliefs. Now, it could be a religious tradition. It could be spiritual or philosophical. You’ve got to do some work, and it matters. What you believe matters. It’s not about what other people believe or what other people think you should believe. That’s not the relevant thing is, every human being, because we have consciousness, we have beliefs. I think pretty much everybody has strong convictions, a set of strong convictions.

Warwick F:
Well, figure out what those beliefs are. Now, maybe you were raised in a religious tradition and you don’t buy into all of it. You may buy into some of it. Maybe you don’t go to church every Sunday or synagogue or mosque, or whatever it happens to be your religious or spiritual tradition. But there may be parts that you like. For instance, in the Christian tradition, maybe you like this whole idea of servant leadership and the golden rule, do unto others as you’d have them do onto you. You might say, you know what? That part of the Christian tradition, well, I buy it, I like that.

Warwick F:
Well, examine the parts of your religious, spiritual or philosophical traditions, and ideally write them down, think about it. What are those things that I feel like at the core of what I believe as me as a human being? That’s the first key step. Know what you believe and honor that treasure that. I mean, let’s assuming you don’t believe in something you think is … Hurt everybody or self-centered. I’m an idealist. Most of us, if you ask people their fundamental beliefs, it’s not typically rip people off, cheat, steal, kill.

Warwick F:
I mean, if you’re a psychopath, okay, but let’s assume that you’re a vaguely sane person, I honestly believe that people have fundamental beliefs that should be honored and treasured, almost without exception. At least for sane, functional human beings, which I think is most of us, I think that’s true.

Gary S:
Those beliefs are, I mean, if … Let’s use a metaphor, if your soul’s a plant, it’s in a planter, your beliefs are one of the seeds that is dropped in there. Your soul grows from those beliefs, and identifying what those beliefs are, really taking the time to think about them helps you understand your soul better, helps you live out of your soul better. Again, it’s not like you can adopt new beliefs that will change your soul. You can adopt new beliefs all the time, but you can see the beliefs that are embedded in your soul and live within the parameters of those. That leads to a life that’s far more joyous than the opposite, what Whitman was talking about.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. I think one way of looking at it is, if you asked, hey, just met John on Mary, tell me about them. Who are they? That’s a common question. Well, this will be a little bit more direct or curious, if you said, so, tell me, what is it that they believe? I don’t mean just so much religion, but in terms of their fundamental beliefs, who would you say they are? Well, if you were told over the next five, 10 minutes, this is fundamentally what they believe, and you would be a fair ways along the path to understanding who they were as a person.

Warwick F:
It wouldn’t fill in everything, but it would fill in some core elements of who they were when you start asking that question. Think of it that way. If that’s true, then we should know what we believe. That’s really the next key point, I’d say.

Gary S:
Yeah, and then, hand in glove with that, beliefs. I mean, we say that, if you did a search on the Crucible Leadership website for these two words being together, beliefs and values come together a lot. Then the third one would be the third point to make sure that you’re living in line with your soul, is it involves your values. Explain that a little bit.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. You’re right, Gary. We talk a lot about beliefs and values, and it’s funnily enough in the book that I have written, Crucible Leadership, which comes out in October this year.

Gary S:
Look at you, bravo. Way to go, October 19th, Crucible Leadership.

Warwick F:
There you go. It’s funny, I have a couple chapters that track exactly these two points. I have a chapter called faith, which is really … I’m a very open about my own Christian faith, but I talk about your leadership needs to be anchored in some fundamental belief system. It could be a religious, spiritual, philosophical tradition, but then I talk about how those beliefs work themselves out in your life, is the next chapter, which really talks about character. That’s a similar way of talking about values, which is, what are your fundamental values? Which is sort of like, how do you live your life, is what values are about.

Warwick F:
Like I mentioned in the blog, two of my highest values are integrity and humility. For me, that comes out of my Christian faith. Those are two of the early disciples, Jesus highest values. There’s a link between my beliefs and values, but it could be different for others. It could be kindness, generosity, compassion. I mean, those are all, I would argue biblical values as well, but your values is part of the outworking of your beliefs in your life. Understanding your beliefs is important, but understanding your values, that paints some more brush strokes on your painting of understanding what your soul really is. The two do work together.

Gary S:
Yeah. And I want to talk to listeners right now who are like, well, okay, that sounds great, but well, how do I know what my values are? I mean, how do I figure that out? I want to share just a little bit, and we haven’t talked about this before because I wanted to surprise you with it. But I did an exercise probably a month ago with this thing. If you’re on YouTube, I’ll show it, but I’ll say it if you’re not. There’s this little deck, it’s called the One Core Values thing, which is done by a book called The One Thing Core Values, but they’ve worked with a company called The Best-Self Thing. All this deck is, is about 200 cards with words and phrases written on them and what your values can be, making a difference, wealth, wholeheartedness, wonder, resourcefulness, responsibility, self-expression.

Gary S:
They list all of these values across a spectrum. The idea behind how this works is you go through the deck of all these words and the ones that resonate with you, put them in a good pile. The ones that don’t, put them in the discard pile. If you have more than eight or nine or 10, whittle them down. The idea behind doing this is to continue to revisit those words until you identify the three words that are the three most fundamental core values that you have.

Gary S:
I went through this exercise and I actually created a little bit of art for my house with my three. My three are hope, grace, and legacy. Those are the three governing values of my life. Now, you don’t have to go out and necessarily listener and spend money on this particular box, but you can consider words, consider values, consider things, and really ask yourself the question, is that important to me? Discard those ideas that aren’t important to you and lean into the ones that are, and you can whittle down through … There’s a lot of values in the world. There’s a lot of people with a lot of different values, and there’s a wide swath of differences between them.

Gary S:
Take some time, do as Warwick said, back on March 10th, the soul work to discover, what are your most deeply held values? It’s not necessarily going to be something you can get to in a minute and a half if you just do some thinking that … A red light. You may have to dig in a little bit, and I’m telling you, from my perspective, learning that hope, grace, and legacy are the three values that govern my life has already, in a month, been revolutionary for me as I move forward.

Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, Gary, that is an excellent suggestion. We might put that in the show notes. If you Google core values, and because I’ve done a lot of executive coaching, I’ve done this from time to time, you can find a number of different books, a number of different lists on the internet of core values. What they do is what that One Core Value concept that Gary mentioned, is they’ll start with maybe a hundred and they’ll say, get your top 20, or top 30, top 20, top 10. Then they’ll say, get your top three, probably no more than three to five.

Warwick F:
As you whittle them down, I think pretty much everybody, certainly the vast majority, you know when you’ve found the right one, you just know this is me. I look at it. This is who I am, I believe passionately. I think what you mentioned, grace, hope and legacy, you look at those words, and you go, that’s who Gary is, so at least, that’s certainly part of how you would describe Gary, right, because of those three words.

Gary S:
Right. What’s interesting about it is that I wouldn’t have necessarily picked these three words if I was just grabbing … If someone asked me, before I did the exercise, what are three words? I would have picked some … I’d probably gone easy. I’d have picked faith or things like that. Going through the exercise of however you do it can help because you’ll discover, not only what feels right to your soul, what is born there, but you may surprise yourself at what’s in there when you go through those words and how you react to them, just as you described Warwick, how you react to those words when you see them, you’ll know, and it may surprise you. That’s a good kind of surprise to have because it can help you moving forward.

Warwick F:
Absolutely. The homework assignment for this aspect, it’s clear whether it’s the One Core Values, which we can put on the show notes, or you can Google values lists. There’s several of them. Find a list and do the exercise of 20, 10, and ideally there’s three or five. Several people do this. They all tell you do the same method. Start with a big list and whittle them down to the few and you’ll know when it’s there. That’s absolutely mission possible. Gary did it. We can all do it. Right?

Gary S:
This hangs on the wall next to the couch where, if we’re watching television or something, so I’m constantly reminded of those are my values.

Warwick F:
That is a good thing to do.

Gary S:
The next point, sorry. I am so lost in my values that I forgot to enter, play my role of moving the show along. The next point then, that was the third point, the fourth point again, to live out of your soul and to make sure that you’re staying true to yourself, Warwick. What’s the fourth point for listeners?

Warwick F:
Yeah, it’s really … This sounds so obvious, but sometimes the important things in life are, but we don’t do it, you want to live in harmony with those fundamental beliefs and values. There are times when I’ve coached people, and as a coach, I say this with a straight face. I say, “Okay, so help me understand what your fundamental values are.” Fundamental beliefs and values. And they’ll tell me something. I’ll say, “Okay, great, so to what degree are you living your personal and professional life in harmony with those beliefs and values?” “Well, not very.” Then I’ll say with a straight face, “No joke.”

Warwick F:
What would you prefer to do, to change the direction of your personal and professional life or to change your values and beliefs? As a coach, I’m not judgmental. It’s not my life. You have every right to change your beliefs and values if you want to and make them more in harmony with what you’re doing professionally and personally. Well, 99% of sane people aren’t going to say, oh, good point. I’m going to continue the way I’m living personally and professionally, and I’m going to change my belief and values. I mean, who does that? I can’t think of too many sane people. Again, I’m just asking, honest to goodness with a straight face, I’ll say, “Well, gee, I guess I’m not living in harmony with that, with my beliefs and values, is that a problem?”

Warwick F:
Well, now that I think about it, yes. It’s not like they’re idiots. They just haven’t thought about it. Who does? Everybody’s too busy. As a coach, what are you going to do next week? What’s plan for moving in a direction of living in harmony? Intuitively, rational human beings understand this is a problem. Therefore, you don’t want to change your fundamental beliefs and values. You have every right to if you want to, but if they truly are your fundamental beliefs and values, trying to change them might mean, oh, I’m not going to live in line with my soul.

Warwick F:
I’m going to reject my soul. Well, you can try that, but that way lies almost guaranteed pain and suffering. Why do that?

Gary S:
That in itself can be a crucible. That in itself, living outside of your soul can be a crucible.

Warwick F:
Right. You want to think about, okay, let me look at my career decisions, my personal, my family decisions, what am I doing? It’s funny. I think of a podcast we recorded just a couple of days ago that’ll come out here at some point in the not too distant future with John Sikkema. He was an Australian business guy working 80, 90 hours a week. He was doing incredibly well, but he was coming home exhausted, having migraines, and he had zero quality time with his family and kids. He was just a hollow shell. His marriage was not looking good. It probably wouldn’t have lasted if he hadn’t changed directions.

Warwick F:
He was a person of faith, but really, I don’t think he felt like he lived his faith day to day, at least certainly not … He didn’t bring his whole professional and personal life in harmony. He wanted to be successful and the thrill of the deal. But when he started realizing, gosh, I’m not really living in harmony with what I believe and he started moving in harmony with that, he still worked a lot of hours, well, actually, he worked less hours, but then he did a lot of volunteer work, but when he was at home, he was more fully alive.

Warwick F:
His marriage got better, his relationship with his kids. When he was living in harmony with his fundamental beliefs and values, his life completely turned around, and his business was just as successful, maybe more. There’s a tangible example of the pre-living in harmony fully with his beliefs and values and the post was dramatic, and that’s true for, I’d say most, if not everybody. Not only are you miserable, you make everybody around you who love you and who you love miserable if you’re not living in harmony with your fundamental beliefs and values, because you’ll be angry, snarky, people at work won’t like that either.

Warwick F:
It has massive consequences personally and professionally. You want to get that in gear. You want to get that in harmony. Your life won’t change overnight, nobody’s does, but just begin to think, we’ll talk about later about how you do this, but start to make some changes so that your life is in harmony. You can’t ignore this.

Gary S:
Right. One of the things you said early on in what you were just saying Warwick is we have these fundamental beliefs and values and then we don’t live out of them because we don’t remember them or we don’t think about them. One of the things I like to do, which is why I hung hope, grace, and legacy on the wall next to where I sit most of the time when I’m just sort of chilling out for the night, but the stoics, who no one will confuse of being Christian religious people necessarily, folks like Seneca and guys like that, they have all kinds of wisdom. One of their sayings from the stoics is memento mori, which means, remember you may die like now. There’s a coin that the stoic society, there are cells where it says memento mori on it.

Gary S:
I keep this in my pocket because this is a reminder to me, if legacy is a value of mine, how am I living right now, knowing that I could … On the back of the coin that says you could leave life right now, knowing that’s true, am I living right now in a way that would make my legacy one that I, my step-kids, who will live on after me, can be proud of? Am I living in light of that? There are little tips and tricks and things you can do to keep your values in front of you, to keep your values top of mind so that you are indeed living in harmony with those values.

Warwick F:
Yeah, and sometimes the concept is simple, the execution can be difficult, but I think for most people that have families, that are part of a family, that have kids, have a wife, have a husband, have parents, have uncles, brothers and sisters, that includes most of the population. We have family somewhere. Not everybody, sadly, but most do, is am I spending time with them? Do I care about them? Am I asking how they’re doing? I’m always complaining about how badly I’m doing? It’s not wrong to share what’s going on when you’re in pain, nothing wrong with that. But am I spending at least some time saying, well, how are you doing?

Warwick F:
If I have young kids, am I with them in their soccer games, their dance recitals? Or was it like, mom and dad, how come you’re never there at my game? Well, I’m sorry, work was busy. Those years are precious. You will lose them for 99% of people. I don’t know too many people that ignoring their kids and spending zero time with them is part of their fundamental values and beliefs.

Gary S:
Correct.

Warwick F:
I don’t know pretty much anybody who would stand up and saying, let me explain why I will defend this perspective and I will ignore my family. I’d say then don’t get married. Don’t have kids. But if you’re going to make that decision, that contract, and sort of another point to this is, you can have a blessing, and I’m certainly not perfect, but certainly one of my fundamental values was spending time with my family, Harvard Business School graduate, not everybody does, and I was fortunate that I just made that choice, had some flexibility. I was pretty much at all of my kids’ soccer, dance recital, plays, not every one of them, but the vast majority.

Warwick F:
One of the things we do in my family is to write cards to each other. On birthdays, we talk about what we admire about the person’s birthday. When it comes to me, whether it’s father’s day or birthday, all of my kids, my boys are more athletic. They’ll say, dad, you were always there at my soccer game. You were there at my tennis match. They’re now in their 20s, every single birthday for, I don’t know, as long as they’ve been able to say these things, which is a long time now. These things matter, your kids, your family, these matters. You want to be able to, and as the decades go by, have those good memories.

Warwick F:
You don’t want to say, I’m so sorry, son, I’m sorry, daughter. I blew it. Forgive me. I will try and live different now. Redemption is always possible, but do you want to have that conversation when your kids are in their 20s, 30s, 40s? I think you want to avoid that. Building a legacy starts now, not at the day before you die. That’s not the right time to change course. It’s better than never, but that’s why these things matter.

Gary S:
It’s true that you can … It’s never too late to begin to live in harmony with your values. Because there’s always an opportunity. One of the things, it occurs to me about this discussion, soul work is like housework. It’s never done, and that’s a good thing, right? It’s not necessarily a good thing for housework, because it’s like, geez, the house is messy again? You always got to keep cleaning the house, but in the same way, soul work is like housework. It’s never finished. You can keep working at it. It’s never too late. It’s never too late to continue to dive in and discover and live out of that essence of who you are, and that’s what you’ve been describing, and what point five of your blog also describes. Share that with …

Warwick F:
Yeah, it’s funny. It just occurred to me, as you were saying, maybe this should have been another point in there, but part of living in line of your values and beliefs is there’ll be times when you don’t, even if you’ve tried to turn a corner, and that’s where apologizing and forgiveness can be helpful. Maybe it should have been in the points, but I didn’t think about it, but so-

Gary S:
As you go to point five, it’s kind of … I can place it in point five. Explain what point five is and I think we can place that.

Warwick F:
Well, absolutely. Yeah, good point. Basically, you want to visualize, what would your life be like if you were living in harmony with your fundamental beliefs and values? What would your career be like, your personal life? This sense of, what do you feel God or the universe is calling to you? What makes you, you? What is your purpose in life? What do you want your legacy to be? This is part of the directional aspect. What are your passions? I think every human being wants to feel like, on their death bed, or as people have often said, in their eulogy, you want to feel like your life mattered, it counted, you made a difference.

Warwick F:
We talk about, in Crucible Leadership, a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. What do you want your life to be like? That’s part of nurturing your soul, is your soul, I believe, wants to make a difference in the world. I think that’s where we’re wired. It’s funny, in the Christian Faith, they say, we’re born here, we’re here for God’s glory or to live that out in some sense in our lives. I think, more generally, whatever light you feel like the universe has put in you, you want that light to flourish. You want that light to illuminate the world to make a difference.

Warwick F:
We’re wired for idealism. Just ask these questions, and they might seem big, but you start asking yourself these questions, thoughts will come into your head. What do I believe matters? What do I feel called to? You may not have every answer, but you’ll have the beginnings of it. I mean, it can take a little time, but ask these fundamental questions in life, and just briefly back to forgiveness, I think part of you got to forgive yourself for making poor decisions, and part of the soul work of the weeding is, I can be impatient at times, and I wouldn’t say I’m … I don’t get massively angry or anything, but I can get a little short.

Warwick F:
Well, over the years, when I’ve done that with my kids, or my wife for that matter, certainly, I’ll say, look, I’m sorry. I was a little short, I’ve had a bad day. I was impatient. That’s like weeding, just apologizing is part of keeping that soul healthy. If you have a lot of weeds cropping around, that’ll make you feel bad, and how to achieve your life’s calling. But yeah.

Gary S:
That fits in with what point five is, what would your life look like if it was in harmony with your beliefs and values? Well, I would think most people’s beliefs and values don’t involve treating your family poorly, so when you do living in line with not wanting to do that, is to apologize, is to do better next time. That’s one of the things that you want to do. To your point Warwick about how you want to be remembered, one of the reasons that I picked legacy is one of my top three core values.

Gary S:
Have you ever had that thing, where if a genie granted you three wishes, what would you ask for? It’s always, I’d ask for three more wishes, right?

Warwick F:
Right, exactly.

Gary S:
For me, having legacy there allows me to put any other word in there, because my legacy is going to be, do I value people? Is friendship important? Is uniqueness important? Is advocacy important? All the words that are in this deck will be reflected in my legacy, and that’s one of the reasons why I chose it and one of the reasons why living your life in light of what your legacy is going to be, what you’re going to leave behind is such an important thing to do, we believe at Crucible Leadership.

Warwick F:
It’s funny, as you’re talking, the phrase occur to me, live your legacy today. Today is the day you want to live it. If you have lived your legacy each day. I think it can look back in your 80s, 90s deathbed, however long you have, and you’ll say, you know what? I made some mistakes, but I lived my legacy, and in the Christian tradition, we all want to meet our Maker and have him say, “Well done, good and faithful, servant.” Whatever your spiritual belief that you want, the sense of some eternal beings, certainly of friends and family to say, “Well done, you lived a good life. We’re proud of you. You made a difference.”

Warwick F:
That’s really what living in light of your soul is and finding that calling. Yeah, I mean, that’s part of that. It really sort of dovetails into the next point.

Gary S:
Right. I was just going to say that’s a perfect transition point. Bravo for you.

Warwick F:
Exactly. That point is really about, because it might seem, gosh, what does God or the universe want? What’s my calling? What’s my legacy? Wow, those are big questions. I think you asked trusted friends and family, who was the real me? What do you feel like lights me up? Why do you think I was put on this earth? What do you think matters to me? Those close friends and family, they know who you are. I think, those of us who have kids, I mean, you get an idea of how their wired, but what matters to them, what they believe.

Warwick F:
Our friends and family, they know this, and that can help you figure that out. We’ll get into this in the last point of … Because it can sound esoteric, but as you begin to get at least the idea of what continent, what country is my calling, then you can begin to explore how to get there. But you got to at least know what continent or country is, your calling, and what … I mean, you might feel like, I just love kids, and maybe it’s teaching them, maybe it’s counseling. Maybe it’s helping kids who are disadvantaged, have some advantages. I don’t know. I don’t know quite what it is, but I know it’s got to involve kids because I love kids.

Warwick F:
You found the country. You might not have found the exact city or zip code, but you found the country. Then you begin to explore that. I think for many of us, if you ask the big questions, we might at least be able to figure out what country that we want to begin explore in. Your friends and family, to use this example, might say, well, John, Mary, boy, I see the way they’re with kids or they love coaching kids on the soccer field or baseball. I don’t know, they just have this pied piper, this magic ability to connect with kids.

Warwick F:
Something like that sure seems like some calling in some fashion, whether it’s being a teacher, a coach, a counselor. I don’t know what it is, but then you’re beginning to make headway in terms of what you feel like is your God or universe given calling.

Gary S:
Yeah. I loved this point from the blog and this discussion here, this idea of asking trusted friends and family members who they see as the real you, because it’s up until now, we’ve been talking about identifying sort of what’s in your soul, what are the … Then somebody else’s observations can be again, like the exercise of looking through words that describe values. Oh yeah, that one fits me. When people ask you questions who know you well, it can elucidate those things as well. I went on the website called Psych Central. I have no idea if that’s a good website or not, but one of the things that I was looking up is, what are some questions to help you know yourself better?

Gary S:
Here’s some things that your friends and family can have insight on about you that you may not have. For instance, have them ask or tell you what they think your strengths are. Interesting. They can tell you, what do you like to do for fun? Ask your friends, “What do I like to do for fun,” and see what they say back. Ask your friends and family this idea of what are my values is one of the questions this Psych Central article has. I love this one, if I wasn’t afraid, I would fill in the blank. Imagine what your friends and family would say to that and what that could unlock for you as you do the soul work we’re talking about.

Warwick F:
Yeah, that’s a great one.

Gary S:
Yeah, what do I like about my job? What do I dislike? I love that one too, because our friends and family are the ones that we go to and complain about our jobs about. We tell them the good things, but we also sort of unload on them so they can come back to us and they can describe for us and help us see, you don’t like when this happens, you don’t like when that happens, you don’t like when this happens, all things that help move the ball down the field as you’re trying to do this soul work and live in light of who you truly are.

Gary S:
Then the question that we talk about a lot at Crucible Leadership, what are you, I’ll add Warwick’s adjective, what are you off the charts passionate about? What am I off the charts passionate about? You have an idea what that is, the seeds of that are in your soul, but your friends and family have observations that can help you unlock that.

Warwick F:
Absolutely, and this is one we’ve talked about beforehand. There’s the reverse of what you’re passionate about or what really fills you with joy, there’s the negative, right? Which is, what is in the world that really makes you angry, that really frustrate you, say that this is wrong? It’s funny, this occurs a fair amount in Crucible Leadership in the sense of, it’s not always the case, but often you’ve gone through a tragedy, whether it’s abuse or physical or emotional, and there can be the sense of the Crucible Leader, if you will, they’ve been through it, and they might say, I don’t want another living soul to go through what I went through.

Warwick F:
It’s wrong and I’m going to do everything I can to help others bounce back, get through it, and hopefully, still others avoid going through it. Often, negative experiences can be the birth of a calling, a soul-driven calling, if you will, that sense of wanting to help people avoid the pain that you went through. So, it can either be positive, or even from a negative, they can still lead to what you feel is your life’s calling, your life’s work.

Gary S:
Well, that’s your story. It’s why we’re here. That’s why there’s a Beyond the Crucible Podcast because something very traumatic, very soul-crushing happened to you, and out of that, out of the ashes of that, was birthed a calling.

Warwick F:
Well, that’s true. I think most listeners would know having grown up in a 150-year-old family business for a variety of, in hindsight, stupid reasons, having done a $2.25 billion takeover, lost a family business, didn’t help family relations, employees. I mean, the business went on, but it was traumatic. I felt like I was living somebody else’s life. Yes, now, out of that pain, I want to help people understand their true purpose, live lives of significance, significance lives on purpose, dedicated to serving others.

Warwick F:
I want people to live in light of their fundamental beliefs and values, accomplishing a calling that will make a difference in the world. Yeah, I mean, which I like to feel like as best I can, I’m doing … I want others to, so having lived through a lot of pain and at least emotional and financial, I suppose. Yeah, out of that pain, it gave me a vision, a calling of how I want to help other people. We always talk on Crucible Leadership and this podcast, you can’t compare pain. I mean, we’ve interviewed people who suffered physical abuse, who are paraplegic, lost a financial business, somebody that had Parkinson’s, but all these people, they’re using their pain to help others. It’s just amazing.

Gary S:
We’ve gone through the six points in a seven point blog, which will be on, if it’s not already there at crucibleleadership.com, it’s called Seven Ways to Stay True to Yourself. We’ve gone through what we … If we’re in an orchard, we’ve gathered the apples, they’re in the basket. What is step seven? Is baking a pie with the apples. What do we do with all this information that we’ve gleaned about how to live true to ourselves, how to do … We’ve done the soul work, now how do we apply that work to our lives?

Warwick F:
Change isn’t accomplished in one day, but rather than saying, it’s all too hard and do nothing. Real change, like turning an ocean liner, happens in small increments. You want to think to yourself, what’s one small step I can do today to live in light of the real me, in light of my soul? What’s one small step I can take to bring my life personally and professionally in line with my fundamental beliefs and values? To use my example earlier, maybe you have an idea that I love working with kids, well, start talking to friends and family, where do you see that? Start, gee, I haven’t really been a teacher, but let me understand that, being a coach.

Warwick F:
Do I want to go in the medical side as a psychologist? I mean, start chatting to people, maybe volunteer on the side and different things. Some things you’ve got to get certified in and that’s fine, but have some exploratory conversations with folks. Gee, what do you do? What do you enjoy about? You might say, boy, that really sings to my soul and you take the next little step to explore that profession potentially. Think about what one small step will you make, if it’s personal, it might be okay, I can’t quit my job right now, and I’m working at 80-90 hours a week, but okay.

Warwick F:
Maybe I can’t make three of my son or daughter’s soccer game this week, but what one game am I going to make? I’m going to make a commitment. I will make one game this week, no matter what, and if I get fired for that … Well, nobody will fire you for going to one kid’s soccer game, but it’s like, pick one. I know you’ve got a bunch of deals going on or you’re trying to work really hard, or wherever it is. Okay, but what’s the one thing that I can drop so I can go to my kid’s soccer game?

Warwick F:
Life isn’t changed overnight, but pretty soon, one small step will link to another small step. Listeners have heard this, but I think it’s a good example. I didn’t wake up one morning and say, oh, I want to live a life of significance at Crucible Leadership. I want to do a blog and a podcast, and here we go, and here’s a book. It didn’t all roll out like that. It was, over time, as, probably the biggest significant one small step is, is I was working in a local aviation services company doing financial and business analysis.

Warwick F:
Yeah, I could do that pretty well, but I wasn’t feeling like I was living in light of my soul. I came to a point where I felt like almost had this internal conversation with God, or I felt like God, well with me is, is like, you’re not living in light of how I made you. You’re playing small. Not that it’s wrong to do what I did, but you’re not fully using your gifts and talents that I’ve given you. I felt like I was dishonoring God with not truly being who he wanted me to be. I just knew. So, I quit my job. Not everybody can do that. But fortunately, I was able to. Went to a executive coach that did mid-career assessments. She said, boy, you have a great profile to be a coach, executive coach, because I love listening and asking questions.

Warwick F:
Well, that wasn’t the end point. That was a step. As I did that, I found my leadership voice. I didn’t know that I could lead my way out of a paper bag after what … If you’d said, are you a leader? Me? I screw everything up. I am so not a leader. I wouldn’t say that now. In my own way, I think I do lead. Well, that executive coach thing led me to be on my church board and kids’ school board. I found, gosh, I can lead. I gave a seven minute talk in church one time about my experiences, and that people said, boy, your story helped me.

Warwick F:
That led me to begin to write Crucible Leadership. Well, all of those were mini steps. The first step was saying, you know what? I didn’t say it this way, I’m not living in light of my soul. I’m not fully utilizing my gifts and talents. I can’t keep staying here. Now, in my case, I was able to quit. Not everybody could, but you can at least begin to think on the side, okay, who am I? What am I being called to? That one step of listening, in my case, to, I believe was the Lord, led me on a path that I am today in Crucible Leadership.

Warwick F:
But it all started with this sense of I’m not living in harmony with my soul. I didn’t use those words, but that would be one way of translating it. That was one significance step that led to a lot of small steps that led me where I am today, and that was … I don’t know, that was a long time ago. That was like 2003, I think, is when that internal conversation happened. Think of one small step, that one small step can be a lot bigger than you think.

Gary S:
What I love about, and this isn’t the first time that you’ve talked about the power of one small step and the need to sort of break this idea of bouncing back from a crucible into small steps because it can be overwhelming otherwise. One of the reasons I love that, Warwick, is for something you said earlier in this show, where you talked about live your legacy today. One of the things that makes one small step powerful, if it’s one small step that’s moving you toward that life of significance, is that, that one small step is one stone in the road towards your legacy. Those two things go hand in hand as you’re moving forward.

Warwick F:
That’s such a good point you’re making, Gary, is we said earlier that you can live your legacy today by going to the kids’ soccer game, by maybe apologizing to your wife or husband. That might not seem like your whole life is going to turn around, especially if you’ve lived a legacy that was not very positive, might even be damaging, and they’ll say, well, great, you apologized today. I’d like to see a few more because you’ve got about a thousand to one right now. You’re really behind the eight ball.

Warwick F:
Okay, but one apology can lead to another, one soccer game can lead to another, and they can begin to see … Kids can begin to see their father or mother, for instance, or family member, differently. You string a bunch of those things together, your legacy will change, but it’s one bigger step than you realize in changing your legacy.

Gary S:
I didn’t even call for the plane to land. That was just the plane landed. It was like one of those, it wasn’t an emergency landing, but it was a landing where we were busy listening to music or reading books or doing something else while the plane was in flight. That was a great place to stop our conversation today. Let me say this, listener, to you. All of these points in written form are unpacked, as I’ve mentioned a couple of times on Warwick’s latest blog, in Warwick’s latest blog on crucibleleadership.com.

Gary S:
The blog is titled, Seven Ways to Stay True to Yourself. You know you’re in a better spot, listener, than we are right now because you know what this podcast is called as you’re listening to it. As we’re recording it, we have no idea what we’re going to call it yet. I can tell you that the blog is called Seven Ways to Stay True to Yourself, but I can’t tell you what the podcast is called, and you know that, and we don’t. So, you should feel good about that, that you have some information that we don’t have, but thank you for spending this time with us.

Gary S:
Until the next time we are together, we ask that you would remember a thread that ran throughout this conversation, that crucible experiences are indeed difficult. They’re painful, they’re traumatic. They can truly knock you for a loop, but they are not, they are not the end of your story, and they are not the end of to talk about one of the things we talked about here. They’re not the end of your legacy either. If you learn the lessons of that crucible, if you, in consultation with, and living from what you know to be true out of your soul, if you learn the lessons of that crucible, you apply the lessons of that crucible as you move forward, that crucible experience from those ashes, that crucible experience can lead to an exciting new chapter in your life.

Gary S:
Far from the end, it’s a new chapter in your life, a new chapter in the story of your life, and it can be the most rewarding one yet, because in the end, as we’ve talked about here, it can lead to a life of significance.

There are times in life we may feel we are not being true to who we really are, to our authentic selves. This feeling deep in our gut that we are living someone else’s vision, perhaps someone else’s life, gnaws away at us. Our friends, even those who love us, may feel content about our lives. But we don’t! We have sold out. We have given up. We feel deeply unhappy and beyond frustrated. We are living, as some have said, in the land of smoldering discontent. But we have lived in this barren land without hope for as long as we can remember. Is there any alternative? Is there a way out?

Sadly, so many live these lives of quiet desperation — to use another phrase. How did we get here? It may have come from listening to the expectations of our parents or our friends. Perhaps in school we were told we were good at math, even though we also were good at music. But with math you can become an engineer which may be perceived as a better and safer career track than music. But just because you were good at math does not mean you love being an engineer. You listened to the advice of others and so began your journey into the land of frustration.

Deep down, this is more than just using your gifts and talents in the most rewarding way. It is living in light of your soul. You have not been true to what you believe you were put on this earth to do. You feel there is some purpose God or the universe has for you, and you are not living this out. That thought is killing you!

So how do you live in light of your soul, your true inner self, the inner essence of who you truly are?

1. Recognize that you have a soul.

All humans have a soul, an inner essence that makes them different than anyone else. Within your soul is your purpose, what you were made to do. Those things that light you up, fill you with hope, that give your life meaning. When you think, “Why was I put on earth?”, your soul — your inner self — provides the clues to that answer.

2. Examine your fundamental beliefs.

We live in a fast-paced, busy world, where few people have the time or make the time to reflect. What’s the point? Life is so busy and competitive. Get a job, hopefully a good one, work your way up the corporate ladder; hopefully have a family life and some pleasurable hobbies and interests. Isn’t that all there is to life? The short answer is no. To find the beginnings of the answer as to who you are, consider your fundamental beliefs. If you were raised in a religious, spiritual or philosophical tradition, think about what elements of those traditions do you really believe in and think are very important. You may not buy into everything in that tradition, but some elements may really resonate with you. For instance, in the Christian tradition, you may really be moved by the concept of servant leadership or doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, the so-called Golden Rule.

3. Reflect on your values.

Our beliefs often inform and influence our values, but it is worth writing down what we feel are our values. Write down a few words that describe the values you most believe in. For instance, for me two of my highest values are integrity and humility.

4. Consider to what degree you are living in harmony with those fundamental beliefs and values.

When you think of your life, the career decisions you have made, the decisions you have made in your personal and family life, how much is that congruent with who you really are? Are you living your own true authentic life, or are you living someone else’s life?

5. Visualize what your life would look like if it was in harmony with your fundamental beliefs and values.

What would your career look like if it was in complete harmony with what makes you, you, your soul? Perhaps you would no longer refer to your career as a career, but as a calling. What do you feel God, or the universe, is calling you to? What is your purpose in life? What do you want your legacy to be?

6. Ask some trusted friends and family members who they see as the real you.

These have to be people that are for you and do not have any agenda other than to help you live in light of who you truly are. Perhaps even ask them, “Why was I put on this earth?” You may find someone says something that rings true, or sparks in you an idea or thought that could lead you in a positive direction.

7. Take one small step to live in light of the real you today.

Finding your purpose is no easy task. But once you have a clearer idea of your fundamental beliefs and values, what lights you up, your almost God-given or universe-given passions, then it is easier to take the next step. What is one step you can take today to live more in line with who you are? It could be thinking of your work differently. Perhaps you will think of your family and friends differently, and how you interact with them. Living on purpose can cause us to treat others differently. If you find your values are kindness and generosity, for instance, if you consciously try to live today like that; that can have a significant effect on how you treat others at work and at home.

Life is a journey. But as you take one step at a time, one day at a time, with purposeful steps to live in light of your fundamental beliefs and values, your true self, your inner soul, your life may well look quite different. Days of purposeful living add up to weeks and months even years of purposeful living. Over time, your life will change, grow and evolve and your purpose – which is deeply in line with your fundamental beliefs and values, your soul — will come. It will not be easy to plan; life rarely is. Trust the process, trust yourself and you can indeed live in light of your soul. That leads to a life of joy and fulfillment.

Reflection

Examine your fundamental beliefs. Write down elements of them that are central to what you believe you and life is all about.
Consider your values. Write down the values that you believe are the core of who you are, no more than three to five.
Take one small step today to live in light of the real you. Take one step forward this day that is line with your fundamental beliefs and values, that would begin to make your soul soar.

7 Tips to Lead Through Crisis

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1. You are worth it!

2. Forgiving does not mean condoning.

3. Forgiveness takes time.

4. Channel your pain in a more productive way.

5. Get help.

6. Modeling forgiveness helps others.

7. Forgive yourself.

Reflection

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1. Value your team.

2. It is the mission and your team.

3. Check your ego.

4. Focus on the process, not the outcome.

5. Be willing to apologize.

6. Talk to your team and let them know that moving forward it must be the vision and the team.

7. Walk the talk.

Reflection

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1. Recognize that you have a soul.

2. Examine your fundamental beliefs.

3. Reflect on your values.

4. Consider to what degree you are living in harmony with those fundamental beliefs and values.

5. Visualize what your life would look like if it was in harmony with your fundamental beliefs and values.

6. Ask some trusted friends and family members who they see as the real you.

7. Take one small step to live in light of the real you today.

Reflection