Accomplishing a vision is not easy. Accomplishing a great and noble vision is harder still. When you have a vision that you feel so passionate about that you would give your life to, failure is not an option. Too many people are depending on you. It could be your customers or your shareholders. If you are leading a non-profit, there could be those that are in dire need for the care that your organization can give them. How can you disappoint such people?
When the stakes are highest, when the cause of the mission seems vital, ironically that’s where people can be most at risk and most vulnerable. How can that be? There is a saying, “The path to hell is paved with good intentions.” In our desire to accomplish a worthy mission, sometimes people can be the casualty. We can be short with them. If they aren’t meeting our expectations, we sideline them or get rid of them. We expect people to work long hours. The standard is perfection. Anything less is just not good enough. Don’t they realize that in some cases, for instance with a worthy nonprofit, that lives are at stake? We don’t have time to mollycoddle our team. They will have to shape up, or find work elsewhere. This cause, this crusade, is too important.
Ironically, crucible leaders, those men and women who have come out of the ashes of a crucible experience, can be most at risk. Often a crucible leader’s vision is formed from what he or she went through in a crucible. Crucible leaders may not want anyone to suffer the way they suffered. They can have almost a missional zeal to accomplish their vision. Zeal is good, but beware a zeal that tramples people on the way.
There is a Scripture in Mark that says, “What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?” This has a particular context in the Bible, but more broadly the point here is that what good is it if we accomplish our mission at the expense of trampling on our team, the people who work with us?
Here are some thoughts on balancing the task, the mission, and the people who help you carry it out.
1. Value your team.
No vision, no matter how important it is, is worth sacrificing your team. That does not mean putting up with people who don’t buy into your vision, are not working hard, and are a poor fit for the position they are in. Yes, you want a committed team who are as passionate as you are about the vision. But it is dangerous to say, “Victory at all costs!” Trampling on people to accomplish your vision is not worth it.
2. It is the mission and your team.
Both are important. Bryan Price, a West Point graduate, former army officer and currently the director of the Buccino Institute at Seton Hall University, told me this philosophy from the U.S. military: “Mission first, people always.” As leaders we have to balance achieving the mission and making our visions reality, with caring for our people. It is a both, and. It must be a both, and. Ironically, if we value our team, listen to them and care for them, the chance of our vision becoming a reality is greater not less. If you care about your vision, care about your people.
3. Check your ego.
Sometimes achieving our vision can be wrapped up in our ego. We want redemption, we want retribution. We want success or achievement. We want self-respect. If our motivation is colored by such emotions, it can lead us to treat people in ways we would not want to treat them; and frankly we may end up treating people in ways that go against our fundamental beliefs and values.
4. Focus on the process, not the outcome.
If you have a clear vision, a well thought-out strategy and a great team, focus on what you have to do today, this week, this month. You cannot control the results, however much you try, and however much you feel that the success of your mission is vital. You may well believe that your vision has to become reality, that so many people are depending on this. But in life, much is beyond our control. We can’t control the economy, or what the competition does, or the impact of shifts in government policy or what potential consumers or users’ value. If we have done our best with a clear vision, a great strategy and a fantastic team, that has to be enough.
5. Be willing to apologize.
Sometimes we get so passionate about our vision that it can be easy to get short with people and trample on them in our zeal to accomplish the vision. We are all human. When we misstep, as we all inevitably will, that is when we need to apologize and help people understand that in our passion for the vision we sometimes get carried away. If you have a team that is also passionate about the vision, they will understand.
6. Talk to your team and let them know that moving forward it must be the vision and the team.
You want to hear their perspective. Let them know that their opinions do matter. Create a safe place where people feel heard and can share their opinions.
7. Walk the talk.
Great speeches about the mission, unity and teamwork are all good. But you have to live your message. You have to almost daily tell yourself to let go and not hold on too tightly. There is a phrase, “Let go and let God.” More broadly, this means doing our best, but not wrapping up our self-worth in the outcome. Trust to God, fate or the universe, that if we and our team are doing their best, that what is meant to happen will happen.
Your vision matters. It may have emerged from the ashes of a soul-crushing crucible that you have come out of. You genuinely want to make a difference in the world. You want to help people. But if in trying to help people, you run over them, is it all really worth it? The answer is no.
By striving for a noble vision and caring for your team along the way, the journey towards achieving your vision will be worth it. If you are hoping for a life of significance, a life on purpose that is dedicated to serving others, a life that will bring you joy and fulfillment, a life that will give you a legacy that you and those that love you can be proud of, then be as committed to your team as you are to your vision.
Reflection
Assess the state of your team. Are they committed to the vision and eager for the journey ahead, or do they seem disheartened and ready to check out?
Have some honest conversations with your team. Let them know that they are just as important as achieving the vision, no matter how noble you and they feel the vision is.
Walk the talk. Check your ego at the door. Let go of the outcome. “Let go and let God.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Despite being born with small hands and shortened ligaments that left him unable to even hold a cup as a boy, Wael Farouk has diligently – some would say miraculously — carved out a career as a celebrated concert pianist. This spring, in fact, he performed Rachmaninoff’s piano concerti Nos. 1, 2 and 3 in one evening — the first time the prodigious musical feat has been done. Farouk lives and works in Wisconsin, where he is an assistant professor of piano and director of the Keyboard Studies at Carthage College in Kenosha. In this conversation with Warwick, Farouk explains how he has embraced his physical limitations, and endured the crucible of religious persecution as a Coptic Christian in his native Egypt, because of his strong belief that it is through what he calls “rough waters” that he improves and progresses.
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Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Wael F:
I placed the highest in terms of those entrance exams, but because of my hand size, the Dean of the conservatory, who was an excellent pianist told my father, “There is not even a 1% chance in heaven that your son will be a pianist. These hands are not meant for the piano. You are going to destroy him psychologically, physically. This is not for him. He should be a doctor, he should be a lawyer, should be something else, but definitely not that.”
Gary S:
Those are crushing words for anyone to hear as they pursue their passion and their gifting. Imagine what they could have done to our guest this week, who was just eight years old when they were spoken to him. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
Thankfully for lovers of classical music, Wael Farouk did not take that assessment of his potential to heart. Despite being born with small hands and shortened ligaments that left him unable to even hold a cup as a boy, he has diligently, some would say, miraculously carved out a career as a celebrated concert pianist. In fact, Warwick interviewed him on the eve of the most challenging performance of his career, presenting Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concerto numbers, one, two and three in a single evening.
Gary S:
As you’ll hear from their discussion, Wael has embraced his physical limitations and endured the crucible of religious persecution as a Coptic Christian in his native Egypt, because of his strong belief that it is through what he calls, rough waters that he improves and progresses.
Warwick F:
Wael, thank you so much for being here. Just to have somebody of your, I don’t know what… Maybe passion, and love, and talent for playing music and just bringing music to future generations or current generations and future generations. It’s really a gift that you have and that you’re giving. But I’d like to go back to, you were born in Egypt, I understand, and from a Coptic Christian family.
Warwick F:
Talk a bit about growing up because I’m sure life is not easy growing up in that environment, but it was particularly challenging for you because you had some physical challenges from birth. You’ve had challenges that other kids you knew didn’t have that you played with. So talk a bit about growing up in Egypt and just some of those challenges in the environment that you had.
Wael F:
Sure, I’d be happy to. As you mentioned, I was born and grew up a Coptic Christian in Egypt. It is not the easiest environment let’s say, to grow up and being a Christian, especially in the ’80s. However, both my parents who grew up in the ’40s and ’50s had even more challenges if you could imagine. But without that kind of challenges, I was born with very unusual eyes and hands situations that it took literally years and decades for me to understand and for my parents to understand what are they.
Wael F:
For example, my hands were very, very unusually small. I have very short finger ligaments, till this day, I am unable to make a fist. It’s challenging for me to do some buttons and to open jars and stuff like that. It took me several years to be able to put on my own contact lenses because before that, due to my eye condition, I used to wear those, what do you call them? Coke bottles bottom. Very, very, very thick glasses right –
Warwick F:
Right.
Wael F:
In regards to my eyes, I was born with my both inner lenses are completely detached from their holding case. And they are actually shifted, they are tilted. And the ligaments holding them are very… The medical term that I was given by my ophthalmologist, they are practically torn, so they’re not really there. So bending down, running, skipping, jumping is off of the table. I am one of the few lucky people that their doctor told them, “You should never exercise,” because of that.
Wael F:
However, again, growing up in Egypt in the ’80s, it was in a way difficult to place or to really understand and unravel all of these issues. I seem like a normal child, yes. Small in build and in size, but the hand situation is really what I am thankful for, it got me where I am today. Because around two-and-a-half years old, when my parents really realized that I am an unable to use my hands on any level, unable to hold bottles, cups, spoons, et cetera, and not realizing my poor eyesight, I wasn’t even seeing where I’m dropping things.
Wael F:
So my dad took me to a physician a little bit before my third birthday and saying, “He cannot really use his hands, is there something that can be done?” The fourth and fifth fingers on both hands are quite curved, not really straight. And a wise old doctor said, “You absolutely leave him alone. You don’t do anything to those hands. Let him practice it somehow, get him a rubber ball, get him a toy where it’s involves a lot of pulling and grabbing, that type of thing. Let there be no injections, no surgeries, just let it be natural. He’s born like that for a reason and let it be.”
Wael F:
Luckily my dad, both my parents really knew nothing about music, nothing about classical music per se, because it is not the most popular language in Egypt as you can imagine. He got me for my third birthday a teeny tiny toy piano. He thought, all right, here is something for his hand to use, here is something for… He doesn’t have to carry, he doesn’t have to drop it, et cetera. So since the age of three, that little toy piano became my best friend, my companion in a way.
Wael F:
Fast forward, then a little bit by the age of five, I started playing at churches because I was in a way able to play tunes that I could hear on the radio or on TV. We were devoted church goers, so I always had hymns and Coptic chants on my head, so I was able to play that on the keyboard, no problem. And of course, I got promoted a little bit, so I ended up getting a bigger keyboard on my fourth birthday, and then a bigger one on my fifth birthday, et cetera.
Wael F:
By the age I was six, I was playing regularly for the Coptic pope weekly services in the main cathedral, which is a big deal in many ways, because in the Coptic church they don’t really allow instrumental music. It is very monophonic, it is very just only human voices and that’s it. So being really the only person who’s allowed to play an instrument and a digital instrument that is, was quite something back then.
Wael F:
Anyway, that was my early experience with music. And by six or seven, I had to get those very, very, very thick glasses that in a way prevented me from being outside playing, but I still was very happy, content, practicing my music. By the age of eight, several people who heard me and that my father had said, “He should be really studying seriously because there is something there and he can have a future in music. You should take him to this place that’s called The Conservatory and he should enroll there and sure.”
Wael F:
Anyway, my dad took me there one day and we learned that there is something called entrance exams, and then there is a panel, and you have to… They test your ear, and if you have a good musical pitch, et cetera, they look at your hand, et cetera. So I placed highest in terms of those entrance exams, but because of my hand size, the Dean of The Conservatory, who was an excellent pianist told my father, “There is not even a 1% chance in heaven that your son will be a pianist. These hands are not meant for the piano.
Wael F:
You are going to destroy him psychologically, physically. This is not for him. He should be a doctor, he should be a lawyer, he should be something else, but definitely not that.” My dad who also grew up Coptic Egyptian, but very, very hard work. He was the first in his family to go to college. When he was six, his father left the family of five and my dad worked two jobs when he was in elementary school, supporting the family.
Wael F:
Often going down to the streets, studying under a lamppost because they did not have an electricity. He told the Dean, “If you say his talented, then you should give him a chance.” And that was it in a way. They gave me a three-month trial period, a grace period and they really tried to make those three months very demanding so I would just drop the ball and quit. Basically they expected me to do the work of three years in those three months.
Wael F:
But being stubborn, being encouraged by my dad who has incredible work ethic and life experience, I was able to stay. I graduated with the top marks in the history of the school. And those professors who told my dad, “He will never be a pianist,” they all come to my concerts when I go back to Egypt. Perform annually with the symphony and they’re all very supportive and are comfortable saying, “We are very glad that you proved us wrong.”
Warwick F:
That is a remarkable story. There’s just so many fascinating elements. One of the things, obviously, as you look back, you were given a lot of challenges, but you were also perhaps given a gift in your family, in your parents. Because certainly in many cultures and certainly in days gone by, I think of… Being back in the era of Franklin Roosevelt who had polio, back then it was considered, we’re talking before the ’50s and it was almost shameful.
Warwick F:
If you had polio, somehow it was your fault and you were meant to sit inside and do nothing, and it was just… And so I don’t know about in the culture you grew up in, but sometimes when you have a challenge, rather than helping, it’s like you just need to be quiet, and just be inside, and not really doing anything. I don’t know if that was true in the culture you grew up in, but your parents weren’t like that. Your parents were saying, “No, we will do our level best to help Wael. To help him have a good life.”
Warwick F:
Not every parent would have approached it with the level of determination and encouragement as your parents and your dad did.
Wael F:
Absolutely. And I cannot agree more. I can give you examples from here till next month, but unfortunately we don’t have time. But my parents did not have much money to begin with. They still wanted to make sure that we had the best education, my brother and I. My parents sold items, so they can mortgage a piano for me when I went to the conservatory, which I did not get a piano till my fifth year with… I did not have an instrument to practice at home, which is very unusual.
Wael F:
All the way through, they were extremely supportive, extremely encouraging, extremely… But what I appreciate more now being a parent, that they didn’t try to put me in a bottle. They didn’t shun me from the world and try to overprotect me or over shelter me, which would have had understandable reasons, but what have had also repercussions later on. But they are very supportive, all the way till my mother’s last breath.
Wael F:
She was a very helpful, very encouraging, would not let you that this is causing somebody else’s pain. Never once worried about what I am doing. Never once saying, “What is this classical music stuff? What is this piano thing? Why don’t you just get a job in the government or do whatever.” Used to practice 13, 14, 15 hours a day in my teens, they never disturbed me once. They never bothered me once. They never said, “You should take a break and go watch TV or go to the movies. Or why don’t you have…” None whatsoever.
Wael F:
It was providential and I think without my parents, you summarize this yourself, without my parents, I wouldn’t have been here. And I cannot imagine what other life I would have rather have.
Warwick F:
And you raise such a good point that sometimes when you have these challenges, your parents understandably, they want to protect you, keep you safe, put you in like a little cotton ball or something. Which they might have the best of motives, but that’s not helpful. You want to help people have not a normal life because what’s normal? But live with other people. And I think about that doctor, there’s a lot of doctors that would either have said, “Oh, there’s no hope. Or we’re got to do all the surgery,”
Warwick F:
But yet you’ve had a doctor that was wise enough to say, “You know what? Don’t touch him. No injections, let him be. Let him use the hands.” That also was providential. Right? You could have had other doctors that would have done, I don’t know, maybe terrible things.
Wael F:
Absolutely. Both him and my other eye doctor, they didn’t really have, again, the latest x-ray technology, they didn’t run tests. They didn’t use me as a study case, they didn’t whatever. Again, I was three, so I barely remember the incident. With my ophthalmologist whom I saw a few years later, I remember a little more of that. But as you said, there are incidents in your life that you go back and you say, “I’m really, really thankful for that.”
Wael F:
And speaking of which, ironically, almost 10 days ago, I got an email from the president of the American Association of Hand Surgeons who said, “I read an article about you and I got to hear some of your recordings. And by the way, Rachmaninoff happens to be my favorite composer as well. May we invite you to be our featured guest speaker in our annual conference in California so you can speak to the hand surgeons and they can… They probably have couple of questions for you. So they promise, we’re not going to do anything for your hands, just look at that and just ask you a few questions.” Kind of a funny coincidence.
Warwick F:
I suppose they’d be tempting to say, “Look, I respect what you do, but don’t be too quick to operate.”
Wael F:
Right. Exactly.
Warwick F:
I guess another question I have is, again, obviously it’s providential that your dad could’ve said, “Okay, a little rubber ball. Okay, that’d be good. Just throw it up against the wall and your room and hand-eye coordination,” or I don’t know quite what, but somehow he picked a piano. And what was it? Because very often as you would know better than me, if you’re musical, there’s a history of music in your family. I don’t know, it’s not always, but it’s so often the case.
Warwick F:
Whether it’s genetic, or cultural, or both, but in your case, there weren’t other examples of that. So talk about from age three through five, what about the piano and music just fascinated you so much so that from there or through the teens, you were playing 12, 14 hours a day. What about music, the piano just captured your heart, if you will?
Wael F:
That’s an excellent question. I think my parents, my dad, especially always loved music and wanted to study music himself, but instead he ended up in the military and getting a degree in accountant. It’s interesting, with music specially or any form of arts that one specializes in from a young age, you see all of those angles of life as if you are going on a merry-go-round in a way.
Wael F:
And it all centers around this subject, but however, during different stages in your life, your relationship with it, not necessarily change, but the frame of it really change. Between three and five, that was my hobby, that was my play time. That’s what I just did. From five to eight, it became more exposure period, if you will. I was playing on TV almost every week, I played in almost all of the churches in Cairo, which there are a lot of churches.
Wael F:
And when I started studying at The Conservatory, I realized, again, thanks to another wonderful parent, if you will. One of my teachers who really told me the fact early on. He said, “Listen, you have a disadvantage with your hands, but if you want to be a professional pianist, this is a serious job. You need to work eight to nine hours a day, just like your dad goes to work eight to nine hours a day. This is not a funny business. This is not a hobby.”
Wael F:
Obviously he was very serious. He was Russian and he was really one of the best teachers in the world. And I am thankful for that, because not only he gave me the facts straight, but he said, “It’s very difficult to be a pianist here, listen to this we’re recording.” And that recording was Rachmaninoff Third Piano Centerto. And then I listened to it and then the next day I was just a different person. I went to him, I said, “I have to play that piece one day.”
Wael F:
This is when I was 13 or so and he said, “No way in heaven. I am twice as big as you are, my hands are three times bigger than you. I still don’t have the courage to play a piece like that.” And again, being stubborn being not bothering much with somebody telling you what you can or cannot do. That’s when I worked my tails off for 14, 15 hours a day and three or four years later here I am playing, that was Cairo Symphony, first Egyptian.
Wael F:
And that piece, it still runs in my life till now, till next week, as you know about this big project we are doing. And if it wasn’t for Rachmaninoff piece that was the hardest, really the Mount Everest of the repertoire, again, I would probably then continue to be a pianist. I wouldn’t be where I am today. I didn’t find the urge of provoking success from yourself. And I think that’s one of the things that you and Gary mentioned in your introduction, these challenges, these difficulties, these crucibles, they are there because really we need them in many ways.
Wael F:
They provoke success in you, they teach you more about yourself. They teach you more about life. And if there are closed doors, they direct you to the open doors, which ultimately end up being the right one for you. And some people have the concept or at least the naive hope that once they experience one or two difficulties in life, that’s it, and then your career is set, your path is set, and then you are on smooth water for… It’s absolutely not.
Wael F:
There are certain things that gives you the challenge, and gives you the option, and give you the choice. Whether you let them define you and to be, I don’t want to say a victim of, because I don’t use this word lightly to be just a reactionary in your life, in your decisions, in what to choose to do, what you choose to represent, in what you choose your life’s work to be about. Or you can make it work for what you want to accomplish and you find it as an opportunity.
Wael F:
And it also teaches you to be grateful because without having sufferings, without having challenges, if you are handed everything so easily, so effortlessly, the concept of being grateful, the concept of responsibility, the concept of working hard, even harder to protect what you gained and what you achieved, I don’t think it crystallizes that as much.
Warwick F:
You said so many profound things there, hard to know where to start, but yeah, it’s almost without the darkness, you don’t appreciate the light. Without the challenges in life, it’s hard to be grateful if life is always perfect. Some young people have been through some challenges, I know you teach in Carthage College, but there’ll be some people that grew up in great families. They’re not particularly poor and everything’s fine. Maybe life isn’t tough right now, but it will be, nobody goes through life without any challenges.
Warwick F:
But just so many things that are remarkable about your story and that it’s hard. Nobody thinks of a crucible as a gift, but sometimes there can be a gift amidst the pain, nobody wants those. But when you think about it, if you had the same physical attributes as a lot of your friends, maybe would have played soccer or thrown a ball, or who knows? Or become a doctor, a lawyer, which nothing wrong with that, that’s an honorable profession.
Warwick F:
But when there’s so many things that you can’t do, whether it’s physically or worried about detached retina, it’s like, “What can I do?” It’s pretty limited right there. Right? I have this piano and I can do that well and it gives me joy. Sometimes narrowing the options is a blessing amidst the pain. Does that make sense? You wouldn’t have designed your life that way, but yet if you’d had all these other choices, maybe you never would have played the piano. Right?
Wael F:
Absolutely. Rocks directs water and determines in a way where the current is going, where the… but also river carves its own way. And even though sometimes you try to reverse its directions, it doesn’t always go your way. But I am a firm believer that because of my faith, not only again, thanks to my family, but to where I am today and some of the incidents that both my family and I were experiencing over the past few years.
Wael F:
It brings some comfort at least that there is a pattern in one’s life that despite challenges, despite, you won’t call it persecution, oppression, this or that, you know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You know that challenges make you stronger, they make you learn about yourself. And I think it is a gift for anybody who is a teacher, because it’s one thing to teach information, to teach digits, to teach… You play the right notes, you play the right rhythm. You read the style of Baroque or classical. This is all peanuts. This is all peanuts.
Wael F:
What you teach about life is really what makes or breaks a person and we need more and more of that.
Gary S:
I want to jump in at this point, if I can and do a couple of things. One, the story that you referred to that kicked off some of the media coverage that you’ve been giving is in the local newspaper, the Kenosha News. And I’m just going to take this opportunity to say to listeners, who’ve heard us talk to at least four people from Australia like Warwick that Wael and I both live in Kenosha, Wisconsin. So I was thrilled when I read his story in the local newspaper one Saturday morning.
Gary S:
I got ahold of Warwick immediate and said, “This gentlemen will be fantastic for our podcast.” But one of the things, Wael that you said in that story, goes along with what you were just talking about. And also gets to the other source of strength that you found. And you said this in that story, “When my parents realized my hand disabilities and later learned when I was seven that I have very severe disability with my eyes and vision, they always prayed and told me that they trusted that God had a very good reason why He made me like this and I am in His hands.
Gary S:
My family and my faith taught me that God will never allow evil to hurt me, and that everything will be for my good and for His glory.” That’s part of your perspective, your faith informs your perspective that these things that are crucibles are meant not for evil, but for good in your life.
Wael F:
Absolutely, and I am so glad that you brought this up. Psalm 23, for example that I tried to build my life on. I think over and over again, because we are doubtful and we also forget quickly. And we are very sensitive to negative experiences, and we are very sensitive to these challenges and sufferings. But remembering, as I was saying earlier, remembering that there is a pattern, remembering that you will always be delivered.
Wael F:
And remembering that gold is tested with fire and you are more refined at the end is something I look forward to. And if I may read you a small verse from probably my favorite hymn, if that’s okay. I think it will-
Warwick F:
Yes please.
Wael F:
… encapsulate what I’m trying more accurately. Says, “Make me a captive, Lord and then I shall be free; force me to render up my sword, and I shall conqueror be. I sink in life’s alarms when by myself I stand. Imprison me within Thine arms and strong shall be my hand.”
Warwick F:
What hymn was that?
Wael F:
It’s an old from the Presbyterian cannon. I’m happy to share with you the entire link later.
Warwick F:
No, that’s awesome. It’s funny, I think also of Joseph’s story that obviously you can probably identify with him. He went to Egypt and suffered persecution there and there’s this great line, I think it’s in Genesis 50, which I know you’re very familiar with is, he talks about, “They meant it for evil and God meant it for good.” And for the listeners who may not be familiar with the story, Joseph was a little bit arrogant, but full of himself when he was young and his brothers got a bit jealous, threw him in a pit and eventually sold him into slavery.
Warwick F:
And he was falsely accused in Egypt of doing things he didn’t, but eventually he found favor with the Pharaoh and life turned around. But he could have been angry and bitter when he met his brothers for what they did, which was sometimes we don’t fully appreciate what the Bible says. It’s a horrific thing to be sold into slavery at all, but by your family? It’s just unthinkable. But yet he wasn’t bitter and angry. That’s amazing to me.
Warwick F:
So as I look at some of the things you’ve been through, I sense both with you and your family, I’m guessing there wasn’t a whole lot of bitterness. You haven’t gone into detail, but I know I’m sure life for Coptic Christians in Egypt and even today, you read about over the last several years, bombings, and persecution, and sadly human beings’ intolerance towards each other. It’s hard to fathom or understand, but it’s somewhat universal, but yet I don’t sense a whole lot of bitterness.
Warwick F:
I may be wrong, as I often say, there’s a difference between condoning and forgiving. You can condemn and not condone and hope that justice will prevail at the same time and not let bitterness destroy you. If that makes sense.
Wael F:
Absolutely. And I very much would like to clarify as I did in the Kenosha article that since 2014, this picture is radically changing. The current president who’s been very, very good to Christians, probably the first in the history of this country that went through so much. Christians now are being, not only respected and protected, and they’re asked their input in the constitution. And your religion is no longer required to be listed in your ID or in things like that.
Wael F:
However, the theme I decided to give this project, which I’m happy to call it probably the most important concert I am about to give both artistically, humanly and personally. Because these recent events that happened in my life, it actually did not have to do much with Egypt, but it has to do much with my experience being here in the States. It brings a familiarity in because you are treated based on what you represent, or whom you are, or where are you from rather than your work.
Wael F:
Which of course, the United States always represented for me and my family, this shelter, this sanctuary. And what is written under Statue of Liberty is something, to be honest, I thought I would never experience here in this again, great country that I am proud to call my adopted country. But it was surprising in a way, it was shocking, I could say. It was unexpected, but at the same time being in it for three, four, five years now, I am reminded of a familiar tune, if you will.
Wael F:
I am hopeful as I was guided through many, many complicated path in my earlier life that this also will prevail and things will end up positively and will end up both for me and for what I represent in the right way.
Warwick F:
Obviously to whatever level you’re comfortable with, just help us understand a little bit about some of these more recent challenges.
Wael F:
Sure. As you know and I would like to share this with our listeners, the concert that I am giving next week on April 8th, we’re playing three Rachmaninoff Concerti in one evening numbers, one, two, and three. And number three alone, I mentioned a little bit of my background, but number three alone is undisputedly nicknamed as the Mount Everest of the piano literature. So to play this one on its own is already nerve-wracking enough, but to play also the other two musical mountains, the first and the second piano concerto right before that is really an experience that first of all is unprecedented and an experience for me that I’ll never forget.
Wael F:
But I wanted to tie this into a theme of not only what I was going through personally, but also what the country seems to be going through lately. The three musical mountains to overcoming three social injustices; persecution, oppression, and discrimination. I am comfortable sharing few backgrounds, few details. In terms of-
Gary S:
Can I jump in because I don’t want to interrupt you when you get into that, but I want listeners to understand, you probably got really sad when Wael said April 8th and you’re like, this isn’t airing until after that, I can’t hear it. Yes, you can. Look at the show notes. This will be on a live stream link that you can listen to up until June 15th. So you will have the chance to hear his performance.
Gary S:
So please don’t be saddened by the fact that as we’re recording this, he is yet to perform, he will perform, it will be online, you can see it then. I just wanted to make sure that people knew that so they didn’t miss it.
Wael F:
Thank you so much for clarifying that. I appreciate that.
Gary S:
In fact, through the miracle of post-production editing, we’re going to give you a very slight snippet of Wael’s virtuosity right now. Here’s a short clip of his performance of Rachmaninoff’s Concerto with the new Philharmonic orchestra from Illinois College of DuPage
Wael F:
I grew up expected in Egypt that I would be persecuted for being a Christian. I would have opportunities taken away from me, even though you earned them. You expected that you will be bullied, that you’ll even be failed and to have somebody else who was not a Coptic Christian that should be in the lead rather than whatever. Your work is trying to be obstructed, blocking your foreign tours just because, why should you get them because you deserve them? Something like that.
Wael F:
All of this was expected. However, this is not really expected here, and definitely not because of what you represent in terms of standing up for what you believe is correct, for standing up against those who abuse their powers. And standing up against those who bully you and those who discriminate you, and openly treat you differently just because you are from a different part of the world or because of what you believe in, or because you’re your work, or because your work speaks for itself.
Wael F:
And because you are not only successful in what you do, but that in a way could shine bad light on what they do or in terms of… I don’t want to draw a comparison, but discrimination or oppression really has no logic. So you don’t really need anything to logically trigger these actions, these decisions. I persevered, I am still being patient and still going through the right channels. My wife’s support’s is immense, my family support is immense.
Wael F:
There are difficult moments, a lot of hurt both physically, mentally, emotionally, but you know these scars are also going to be good for the future and you get over them one way or another with time, with therapy, with whatever it is. It is a battle I am happy to have, especially where it comes to defining who you are and what you represent or what you want your work to be about.
Wael F:
With that, I decided that will be fitting, and again, providential that this is the one concert that was not canceled due to the virus, due the pandemic. The Rachmaninoff mountain concert, and this seemed to be quite fitting to give it that theme.
Warwick F:
Just so listeners understand a little bit, and again, I know you probably don’t want them to get into every detail, but is it discrimination based on that you’re Egyptian, from the Middle East? People make certain assumptions about everybody from the Middle East believes a certain way. Is that kind of, you look different, they assume you believe different, is it that kind of territory or?
Wael F:
It’s all of that. Exactly.
Warwick F:
Everybody from the Middle East must be evil or that kind of mentality.
Wael F:
Yeah. And recent events, especially that happened in our own backyard in Kenosha in July also really was an alarming wake up call in a way that we need to be careful and we need to be how… Not that we need to be careful how labeling people could make us really pay dearly down the road. And sometimes we are too polite even to defend ourselves, or to correct somebody’s misassumptions, or just asking questions back, or really, for a lack of a better word, defending oneself that could be viewed or skewed as being aggressive or as being irrational, or as being whatever.
Wael F:
But if clarification or seeking truth becomes secondary to anything, we will pay dearly. And they’re not just talking about those who are in certain minorities. If history taught us anything, just a little bit of drifting from the right paths will cost us dearly. So I am glad that again, this has been put in my life. I don’t understand those reasons right now, but as my faith has taught me, as past experiences has taught me, I’m sure it’s for the good. I’m sure it will also help me be a stronger, I will understand myself better.
Wael F:
I think the crucibles in my childhood brought me where I am today. The crucibles I’m facing right now will kind of determine where to go from here.
Warwick F:
It sounds like you approaching it with courage and conviction. It’s hard to understand why intolerance, hatred because of differences. It’s hard to understand where that come from. From a faith perspective, I guess there’s a lot of darkness in the soul of humanity, but it’s always hard to understand, I have to say. But it’s been a reality, certainly in our current times and before. So thank you for sharing that.
Warwick F:
Talk a bit about this concert. I love how you’re combining both your love for music, as well as to stand up for justice against discrimination, oppression, and persecution. One of the other things I wanted to come back to is, when somebody says to you, Wael, “Oh, that’s impossible. You can’t do it. Don’t even try, give up.” That’s almost like now that you’ve said that, then I have to try it. Right?
Warwick F:
It’s like, somewhere, I think I read that Rachmaninoff was, I don’t know what 6’3, 6’6, a massive size, and massive wingspan, and probably huge hands. And so it’s fine for him to write concertos that he can play, but what about the rest of humanity? I guess he didn’t really care about that. “I’m good. I can play my own music,” but you would take on something that music teachers said, “Give it up, Wael, you’ll never do it.” But yet it’s almost like this challenge that’s…
Warwick F:
Talk about, why when somebody says it’s impossible for you, Wael, why that becomes like this lightning rod, this challenge, this rallying cry? Here we go, let’s go for it. How does that happen for you?
Wael F:
Sure I haven’t been asked this before, so it will take me a little bit to get there. I’m happy to answer it, it’s a great question. I think I need to answer this question to verbalize it for myself. But to touch quickly about what you just said about what goes on and what we can not really understand why things happen, and darkness in humanity, et cetera, but the theme of your show.
Wael F:
And I like the thing that this is the theme of my life too, that I know that good will prevail, no matter what, good will prevail. If history has taught us anything over, and over, and over, and over again, good will prevail. And those who do think that they have a green light to abuse, discriminate, just don’t overestimate your dark powers. And for those who go through similar times as I am and as many others, don’t underestimate your strengths and your power and the power of God, because if you have God on your side, that’s it.
Wael F:
And I know it may feel as an over-simplification, but this is not at all. And whether we choose, acknowledge it or discuss it, but it seems to be the theme of humanity. That’s why all of the movies almost is about either good or evil and which one we’ll thrive at the end. I just wanted to throw that in there. But now back to your question. Of course, when I was young or recently when I decided to take on these projects, to take on these massive programming, it is not at all that I want to try to prove anything.
Wael F:
Because if there is anything to be proven, it’s just for oneself. Because at the end of the day, when you put your head down to sleep, it’s your conscience, artistic or personal or human or moral, that’s what counts. That’s what will keep you awake at night or that’s what we’ll give you peace of mind. When I am told, for example, when I was young, “You cannot really do this. You cannot play Rachmaninoff’s third, you can never be a pianist.” I don’t read the future. None of us can.
Wael F:
And of course, these are experts that I respect and admire, but at the same time, I guess what processes into my head, which I believe is your question is, all right. Don’t seal my fate yet. Let’s take a look at this. Give me an opportunity, give me a chance. And no matter how long it will take, if this doesn’t really work, it will be folly of me to lie to myself, because this is the worst kind of lie, when you lie to yourself.
Wael F:
So let me have a run with this. Let me try, let me close the door on myself for a year, or two, or three, or four. Let me give up what I like to give up happily to practice and to sit down and memorize all of these works and all of these notes and let’s see. And if I cannot do that, I will tell you. If I cannot do that to share it with public, with hundreds and thousands of people, at least I have had a wonderful journey of discovery that I really cannot do that.
Wael F:
Knowing your limitation is a blessing, is often more important than knowing what you’re able to do. But so far, I think I haven’t had that wall… I haven’t ran into a wall, I guess that I could not take down. And if that teaches me anything, when you have faith, when you have courage, when you know what you’re doing. When it’s not just naive, empty statements, and when you work hard, and this is the one thing I really learned from Rachmaninoff or from Beethoven or from Chopin.
Wael F:
Because those people, those people worked extremely hard under incredible circumstances. If you look up Beethoven, Beethoven could have stopped 25 years earlier than when he died, when his hearing was already going out. He still wrote, this is my duty to my art. This is my duty to my fellow man, to keep working, to keep writing. The poor man was suffering. He was deaf. At the end of his life, God knows what kind of all sorts of stomach cancer he was dealing with.
Wael F:
His stomach was basically cut open for three months because of all the infections, all of the lead poisoning, all of the horrible things that he was going through. He was still working to the last breath. And if those people could do that, who am I to give up so quickly?
Warwick F:
You’re offering… I want to touch on this briefly here in a moment because you teach at Carthage College. In addition to teaching music, there’s a lot of life lessons you can offer students, and current musicians, future pianists, and talented folks. But just that sense of not giving up, I’m reminded of somebody, very different circumstances we had on the podcast, a woman, Lisa Blair, who is an Australian woman who sailed around Antarctica in a sailboat.
Warwick F:
This is like the worst oceans in the world. Massive storms, as she would say, she’s like 5’2, not particularly physically adept in terms, she’s not like six foot, some massively strong. She thinks of herself as not very special, but she has a very special attitude. That’s really her superpower, it’s not her physical stature. And she defines failure the way you do, which is failure is not trying.
Warwick F:
So long as I’m giving it my all, I’m giving it my level best, then that’s not failure. And that’s something that young people, just what you said, really need to understand. So often, you know what they say, “It’s better to have tried and failed and never to have tried.” Maybe you’ll fail, but you’ll certainly fail if you don’t try.
Wael F:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
I’m sure you’ve probably given that message a million times to young people. And sometimes you’ll fail, but sometimes you won’t. And it’s like, what if I fail? The response is, but what if you don’t?
Wael F:
Right.
Warwick F:
And even if you do, so what?
Wael F:
Right.
Warwick F:
Right?
Wael F:
Exactly. It doesn’t define you. And if you are going into life expecting that it will be a Disney movie, perfect, then it’s better really to wake up. Even in Disney, there are some hard times. And my best word of advice that really comes to mind when Edison says, “I didn’t fail 2,000 times to make a light bulb work, I found 2,000 ways not to make a light bulb work.” Because knowing what not to do is extremely helpful.
Warwick F:
And that’s a very, I love that you bring that up. People often think, somebody in Hollywood or a pianist, they were an overnight success. There’s no such thing, in most cases. Edison’s a great example. In a lot of the creative arts, and you would know much better than I would about composers, but typically as you’ve described with Beethoven or Mozart, there’s hours and hours, and years and years of intense work that leads to what we might think is some of the greatest masterpieces of music ever written.
Warwick F:
Greatness typically doesn’t happen easily. You got to have some talent, but it requires a massive amount of hard work.
Wael F:
Exactly. And the other quote that I really love is from Beethoven, who said, “I am only 10% talent and 90% hard work.” And like you said, being successful at anything, it just comes with sweat and blood. And another great lesson I learned from my dad, reaching the top of your mountain is comparatively easy, by staying on the top of your mountain. So it’s not, once you accomplished something you are done and you leave, and that’s it.
Wael F:
And I think this is part of the challenge, or maybe this is also why I like to keep looking for a new challenge is because feeling that, okay, I already did that, I have nothing else to do. Then you’re kind of emotionally dead, or you’re kind of intellectually dead. Life is still full of so many great things, but this is also the same thing in chess. I was just watching a Bobby Fischer interview and the host is asking him, “What’s now for you? You’re already the champion of the world?”
Wael F:
And he says, “I have to find something to do. I cannot just sit for three years till my game.” And the same with Pushkin, or Dostoyevsky, or Tchaikovsky, or Rachmaninoff, or Beethoven, or Bobby Fischer.
Warwick F:
Just talk about, as we begin to close here with Carthage College. Talk-
Gary S:
Yeah, I was going to say, I normally say at this point, “The captain’s turned on the fasten seatbelt signs and it’s about time to land the plane.” The best I have here is that we’re approaching the Coda of the performance of our conversation. Before we do-
Warwick F:
I was going to say, we’re probably coming towards the last movement or something of the piece, or.
Gary S:
Yes. Before we do that and Warwick, asked this question though, Wael, I want to give you the opportunity to let listeners know where they can find you online and find out more about you. So where can they go to find out more about you?
Wael F:
Thank you, Gary. My website waelfarouk.com, W-A-E-L, F as in Frank, A-R-O-U-K.com where I have my past performances, recent performances, calendar of upcoming events. My YouTube channel, again, just writing my name, my website at Carthage College or Roosevelt University.
Gary S:
Fabulous. Thank you.
Warwick F:
Just talk as we close here at Carthage College, you obviously love playing music and just helping people understand the joy of some of these incredible pieces. Whether it’s Rachmaninoff, Chopin, Beethoven, all of the other ones you play, but yet you also teach. Talk about how teaching students at Carthage College gives you joy. What about that? You could just play music, but there’s something about that that clearly you love teaching students about music. What is it about that that you love?
Wael F:
That’s a great question. There are so many nuances here. Teaching is also learning at the same time, because it’s two-way street. Finding, there are certain things that I do naturally and I do instinctively when I play, and certain things perhaps that I didn’t find very much challenging. Certain things I did find challenging, but when you meet with a student who comes from various backgrounds, some come from… They just been taught by fabulous teachers. They have no problems, technically, psychologically, musically.
Wael F:
And some others have deficiencies in one or all of those three areas. And then having to think, first of all, analyze just like a physician when you go and dealing with different patients, with different symptoms analyze, they’re trying to understand they’re trying to find the antidote. And sometimes the first one works great, sometimes the 10th one only works great.
Wael F:
But going through these classes, discovering new ways, new verbalizations of new ways or of demonstration, how to get the information, how to understand how the hand and the body and the brain work, it’s a very complicated job, much more so than some people think. Especially if you do it on a professional level, not just in a recreational for hobby or therapeutically. But going through that and at the same time, because we deal with a great wealth of history.
Wael F:
At least what I like to do when I teach music, when I teach piano that I don’t just work with a student on this Chopin concerto or this Chopin… We get to know who Chopin was, we get to know about the French Revolution. We get to know about the Polish Revolution. We get to know about the Russian invasion of Poland, and 1840, and the 80-year war, the 30-year war, et cetera, cetera. What did Franz Liszt stand for politically? What did Rachmaninoff stand for politically?
Wael F:
Those people were timekeepers and were mirrors like all artists of what was happening culturally in terms of history, in terms of their own view of the world. And you probably cannot find a better time capsule than that because they are very accurate. So we delve into all of that, and of course, that really shapes the life of a young person in a wonderful way.
Wael F:
And also knowing that no matter what challenges you have; mentally, emotionally, physically, we all have our scars on the inside or the out. But again, that does not mean that you can not do something if you don’t apply all your faculties to it. But seeing at the end that critical faculties develop and seeing that they become their own teachers in a way. Because it’s one thing to tell somebody, “Okay, here, this solves the problem. Here is what you should do. Here is how you prepare for a piece, how you prepare for a competition, for an audition, for a concert.”
Wael F:
But to work with them over the two or three or the four years you have, sometimes longer till they become their own teachers. Because no matter what a great teacher you study with, at the end of the path, you are on your own. But if you know how to take care of yourself personally, musically, artistically, and always grow, always find new information to always learn, to always develop. I think this is very, very, very rewarding. It’s hard work, takes a lot of time, especially it takes a lot of time away from your practicing.
Wael F:
But it is our responsibility in a way, because I was given so much by all my teachers, freely and lovingly, and I wouldn’t trade this for the world. And I spend time with my teacher more than I spend with my parents. And I’m just proud and honored to be given an opportunity to present something like that to somebody else.
Gary S:
That sounds a lot like a Maestro hitting his final note right there. That’s what that sounds like to me, listeners. Before we go, I want to leave you listeners with something that before we hit record on this episode Warwick and Wael were talking about, and they were joking. They were laughing that their initials are the same, Warwick Fairfax and Wael Farouk. And we have guests as you’ve heard me say before, we have guests fill out these forms to help us prepare for the podcast and we ask a number of questions.
Gary S:
And one of the questions that we ask is, what’s one bit of advice you would give listeners to help them overcome crucibles? And this is what Wael wrote. But what struck me about it as I was reading it is that this quote, I could take this quote and I could put, “It was said by the initials WF,” and you wouldn’t know whether it was Warwick Fairfax or it was Wael Farouk who says it.
Gary S:
And here’s the quote, “Our lives in many ways are defined by how we act in the face of suffering and calamity. We are bound to go through rough waters, but this is for the good. What helped me go through all of my challenges is my faith and love for God, my family, and my work.” That, listeners defines both of the men that you’ve heard talking on this conversation today on Beyond the Crucible.
Gary S:
And until we’re together the next time, listeners, if you want to know more about Crucible Leadership and about Beyond the Crucible, we’ve got some exciting things you can discover at our website, crucibleleadership.com. There’s lots of new content, lots of new information coming. Go check us out, check those things out. You’ll be excited, I think by what you’ll see. And again, until the next time we are together, remember what we’ve discussed here, the truth of what we discussed here.
Gary S:
Your crucibles are painful. What Wael discussed was painful to him, has been, continues to be painful to him, but it’s so far from not the end of his story and it’s so far not the end of your story. Because if we learn the lessons from our crucibles, if we apply the lessons from our crucibles, it’s not the last chapter of our story. It can be the beginning of a new chapter that can lead to the best chapter of our lives, because the end result where we get to that destination is where Warwick’s ended up, is where Wael’s ended up, and that is at a life of significance.
We’ve all heard that living with your purpose top of mind – what we at Crucible Leadership call a life of significance – leads to a more joyful and impactful life. But did you know it also can lead to a longer life? Author Marta Zaraska makes an eye-opening case for that truth in her best-seller, Growing Young: How Friendship, Optimism and Kindness Can Help You Live to 100 – a book steeped in science (she studied more than 600 research papers in her research) that points to the health benefits of living life in community and in service to others. That means those steps you’re taking to overcome your crucibles — deepening authentic relationships, growing in character and kindness, leaning into the power of meditation and prayer — can lower your mortality rate more effectively than a fad diet or obsessing over whether you’re getting your 10,000 steps in every day.
To learn more about Marta Zaraska and Growing Young, visit www.zaraska.com
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Marta Z:
I really believe that most people can find in their jobs and what they’re doing, some kind of sense of meaning. But you have to really try, you have to spend some time to think about those things, what could it be? Can it be your family or maybe your community involvement or even when we’re talking about kindness, which is related to purpose and meaning. Research shows that acts of kindness can lower levels of our stress hormone, cortisol and generally change our gene expression.
Marta Z:
But the kind acts they are talking about, are usually quite small. It doesn’t require some huge, donating $1 million to charity. You can for instance just open doors for someone to let them ahead of you. You can let people ahead of you in traffic. You can pick up trash in your neighborhood. Just really small things. And yet they make all the difference. And I think it’s the same thing with purpose. Of course it’s great if your purpose in life is to save the world from climate change, awesome, but it can also be something small, very small steps and it’s all about shifting your perspective and just thinking about those things in the first place.
Gary S:
We’ve all heard that living with your purpose top of mind, what we call a life of significance, leads to a more joyful and impactful life. But did you know it also can lead to a longer life? Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. On this week’s episode, Warwick talks with Marta Zaraska, the best-selling author of Growing Young: How Friendship, Optimism, and Kindness Can Help You Live to 100. A book steeped in science that points to the health benefits of living life on purpose in service to others. Among the eye-opening facts she uncovers: volunteering lowers your mortality risk by 22%. Optimism can prolong your life by almost 10 years and supplements and fitness trackers aren’t likely to do as much for the length and quality of your life as simply living in close knit community will do for it.
Warwick F:
Marta, thank you so much for being here. When I read, I think it was a couple of weeks or so ago, the article in the Washington Post that talked about purpose and how having purpose could help increase longevity, I thought, “Boy, that makes sense intuitively, but I haven’t really read an article and now a book that actually talks about that from a science perspective.” So that’s fascinating, because at Crucible Leadership we’re all about helping folks bounce back from their crucible setbacks and failures to lead a life of significance. Which we define as a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. So that right in our wheelhouse and what our listeners will be curious about. So, Marta, thank you, again, so much for being here. Before we get into the book, tell us a little bit about how you became a science writer and the background? Because I know, I think you’re Canadian living in France but I believe you were born in Poland. So tell us a little bit about that journey about your background and how you came to be a science writer?
Marta Z:
I mean, I’ve been a journalist for over two decades now, so it’s been a while. First as a foreign affairs journalist I was working in Poland for several major publications there. I used to write about some things like social issues in Africa, I traveled a lot as well, places in Africa especially. And so, then as a very young adult, I moved out of Poland, I moved to Canada and so a few years later I also became Canadian. But I started writing in English at some point as well and decided that maybe traveling to Africa and very dangerous places generally, wasn’t going very well in line with starting a family.
Marta Z:
So, I decided to switch to a different type of writing, science writing. Although it’s connected to my previous work as well, because when I was writing about environment issues in Africa or some social issues, water shortages, it was also very much based in science already and I’m also married to a scientist, so it was a natural change of course for me. But I’ve been doing it for many, many years as well right now, so, writing, as you’ve mentioned before, for Scientific American, the Washington Post especially, and some other publications that is Los Angeles Times, et cetera, that you’ve mentioned, I’m sorry for all my editors in those newspapers, for putting them there, New Scientist et cetera.
Warwick F:
Wow, that’s amazing. So, now did you meet your husband in Poland or Canada or…
Marta Z:
Poland. I mean, we married crazy young, so yeah.
Warwick F:
And speaking of that, you have one or two kids?
Marta Z:
One, one daughter yeah, she’s eight.
Warwick F:
One daughter, okay. I’m sure it’s fascinating to see as she grows up, all of the different tendencies and changes. It’s one thing to read about people in scientific journals and papers, but then you get to observe a person too. And that must be pretty interesting, I imagine?
Marta Z:
I mean, that’s how it feels in a certain way, as I said, we are both Polish born naturalized Canadians and we live in France right now. So we’re actually raising a French person which adds that additional twist to the whole parenting.
Warwick F:
So what led you to move to France? Out of curiosity.
Marta Z:
Helping out with my husband’s PhD and we stayed afterwards.
Warwick F:
Okay. So, I imagine your daughter’s probably, obviously fluent in French and I guess she probably knows a bit of English and Polish does she?
Marta Z:
I mean, she’s trilingual, so she’s absolutely fluent in both French and English with no difference and her Polish is slightly worse than English and French, but she also can communicate fluently.
Warwick F:
I’m sure with the grandparents and all, that would be important, so…
Gary S:
That is tremendously impressive. I am barely, many days, unilingual, so…
Warwick F:
Yeah. That’s awesome. So, I want to get into the book, but I think one of the challenges you mentioned was coming from Poland, writing for a Polish language journal, it wasn’t the easiest thing in the world to get published in papers such as the Washington Post and writing another language is not the easiest thing, I’m sure, especially when you’re writing scientific articles. I mean, I did a bit of French in school and I can probably order a meal or get a room for the night, but there’s no way I could talk in French about some scientific subject. That would be way beyond me, so, that must not have been easy, I imagine?
Marta Z:
I mean the funny part is, I can not write in Polish anything about science at all, so, it is an interesting but it’s extremely difficult for me. But, yeah, I mean switching to English was a challenge, a big one definitely. And so to do so, me and my husband at some point many years ago, we’ve actually decided to switch to speaking English at home, which is something that many people find extremely weird. That we are both Polish and we speak English at home and our daughter speaks English with us at home. But from both our work’s perspective it was vital because we knew we were staying in the West and to be able to write properly in English, I had to think in English and to think in English, I had to speak in English.
Marta Z:
So that’s what we’ve decided to do and yes, breaking into the Western market is certainly a challenge and unfortunately even the top credits from Poland are not very much appreciated usually, so, I got a lot of rejection letters before I managed to break into… My first publication was Globe and Mail in Canada and so I really appreciated the chance that the Editor there, in the international section took on me. So, yeah, that was extremely challenging and it took a lot of being very, very stubborn and sending my emails and letters over and over and over and over and over again. I guess I’m pretty stubborn, so… And then once you write your first Washington Post article, then suddenly the door is open and things become much, much easier.
Warwick F:
Well, the power of persistence, a very important quality. Anybody that’s succeeded, I can’t think of anybody that hasn’t been persistent. I don’t know if persistence adds years to your life, but it should, so… I’m trying to remember if I read that, I’m not sure, but… So talk a bit about what led you to write Growing Young, because I know you’ve written another book, but why this book? I mean, was there anything that’s linked to your background, family, any reason why this whole growing young concept was fascinating to you?
Marta Z:
I mean, it came quite naturally out of my writing, because I write mostly about biological sciences, so everything concerning health, nutrition, psychology and also longevity. So all these topics I’ve been covering them in my articless previously, so there weren’t any surprising twists there. And also, in my private life, I’ve been quite interested in longevity and health and I think the book started basically, the idea for the book was at first to be a parenting book, actually. So I felt, as a mother I had this wish that my daughter would live healthy and long and I was thinking, “How can I help her achieve that? How can I assure that she’ll live a healthy and long life?” So I started gathering data and reading articles and journals and talking to experts, trying to figure out what makes people live long. And so, of course, there was the diet and exercise, but at the same time I started coming across more and more research showing that this social side of health.
Marta Z:
So whether we are socially integrated, whether we have purpose in life, meaning, whether we are optimistic, conscientious, all these things matter at least as much for health and longevity as diet and exercise. And then I realized also that there was something much bigger here than just a parenting book, because this applies to everyone not just for making sure that my daughter life long and healthy and for children in general, but also, for us parents and grandparents, for everybody, right? And this was a huge point that seemed to be missing completely from the discussions we were having in the media about what makes people live long and healthy. And this is why I decided to do even more research and I ended up reading over 600 research papers to write this book. Hence that was how Growing Young came about.
Warwick F:
It’s interesting, because as you write in the book, it’s easier to measure the effect of diet, exercise, nutrition probably scientifically than the things you write about, committed relationships, purpose, the socialization with friends. I mean, it’s probably a little… It feels a little more fuzzy, maybe it’s not as fuzzy, but that’s the popular concept. I know there’s a couple of things you write in your book, which again, I found absolutely fascinating. From everything from marriage to relationships to loneliness, so many things. You wrote a couple of things that talked about your purpose in the book. You wrote one comment that says, “I wrote Growing Young out of the believe that in the deluge of reductionist wellness news, we’ve somehow lost the big picture. Ignoring the things that matter the most for our longevity, relationships, emotions and the psyche.”
Warwick F:
And then another one you write, “My goal in writing this book was to help you fundamentally rethink how you approach your health. Whether you might be putting too much effort into strategies that don’t work well, supplements, fitness trackers and not enough into those that truly matter, your love life, your friendships, your life’s meaning.” And obviously you’re not saying that diet and exercise and health are not important, I mean, I’m sure, reading your book you obviously, you and your husband and daughter take that all seriously. But talk how there’s almost a fascination and obsession, my words not yours, with the latest diet, the latest fitness track, the latest treadmill machine. We’re just so focused on measuring pounds and calories and body fat, but yet we don’t really think too much of some of these other things such as relationships, emotions and such. So talk about the obsession the world, certainly the Western world has with that versus these other factors that seem to be pretty important?
Marta Z:
I mean we certainly are obsessed. When you think about it, half of all American adults take at least one dietary supplement every single day and the sales of all these fitness trackers are absolutely booming and so, I believe what’s happening are two things. So, for one, we find it comforting in a way, to measure things. We like simple solutions, so if you pop this miracle supplement your telomeres will become longer. If you measure your HRV rate you will know exactly how old you are. If you take 10,000 steps exactly per day, then you’ll be healthy.
Marta Z:
So we really like this kind of simple solution, this is what you do and this is the results you’re going to get. But I also think it’s fueled by marketing and sales, basically of all the companies that are selling us those products. Because why do we keep hearing about miracle diets and supplements and exercise gadgets so much and so little about the impact of friendship and social inclusion, happiness, purpose on health? Even though these things have been established in science for a very long time. And I believe the reason is exactly that when we are talking about diet and exercise, there are products that are being sold to us. All these supplements, it is a huge, multi-billion dollar industry worldwide.
Marta Z:
The fitness trackers, there is someone making money on all those things. So they’re being advertised, they’re being publicized by influencers on social media. So this is why we hear about all those things. Whereas when we’re talking about purpose in life, it’s hard to make money, nobody’s making money on you finding meaning in your life. So, this is why you don’t hear about it, you don’t see it on Instagram, because it’s just not making money for them.
Warwick F:
Right. Can you imagine, “Here’s this magic pill, have this pill for three weeks and you won’t be lonely. Have this other pill and you’ll have a happy marriage.” It’d be tough to sell that one.
Marta Z:
Yeah. It doesn’t exists.
Warwick F:
No, I mean, it’s funny, we are in my family, somewhat emblematic of what you’re talking about. I mean, I’m very blessed, my wife cooks very well and goes to health food places like Whole Foods, a huge US place. So we eat organic stuff and yes, I got to confess, we do have the odd supplement. I have to ask, I hope it doesn’t have any lead in it like some of the supplements you mentioned in your book. But yeah, I mean I like to think we’re also focused on purpose too. It is interesting-
Gary S:
I have to jump in and say, I feel really bad that I said at the outset off air that I’m keeping track of time on my Fitbit. So, I know how long we’re going, so I’m just going to sit over here and not say anything and sort of shrink back.
Warwick F:
Yeah. And perhaps not look at your Fitbit too much, right?
Gary S:
Yes, correct. Yeah.
Warwick F:
So, I mean… But what you say is there’s so many interesting takes, I mean, I want to get to purpose here and Ikigai, which I’m sure I’ll mispronounce, a little bit. Because, that purpose is so much of what we talk about here at Crucible Leadership. But there’s so many interesting stats you have, you’ve got a great chart in there that list a whole bunch of dieting things you can do and exercise and then everything from relationships to having purpose and social networks. But there’s one quote that I think you have in there that really sums up everything and compares some key dietary and exercise components with more of the social aspects, and this whole paragraph I found fascinating.
Warwick F:
So here’s what you wrote, “Here’s some stats, eating six or more servings of fruits and vegetables a day versus zero, lowers the risk of mortality by 26%. Sticking to the famed Mediterranean diet means a 20 to 21% lower risk of dying within the next few years. The number for many social factors are much higher, the happy marriage equals a 49% lower mortality risk. Living with someone, even just a roommate, as opposed to living alone, 19 to 32%. Having a large network of friends, 45%. Other mindset and social indicators have effects similar to that of the super-healthy eating style. Volunteering lowers mortality risk by 22%, more or less as much as following the Mediterranean diet. If you were to add everything together, combining a good marriage, strong friendships, feelings of belonging and so forth, you create a complex measure of social integration, or something that we call the essence of the Roseto effect,” which some town in Pennsylvania in the early ’60s where people were super close with each other, “you would get a whopping 65% reduction in mortality.”
Warwick F:
I mean, that’s just staggering. Here’s all of these things from Mediterranean, fruit and vegetables, but you compare that with things like marriage, volunteering, social networks, it’s not to say you shouldn’t do that, but it has as big an effect. I mean that was astounding to me, those statistics. I mean it’s mind blowing.
Marta Z:
I mean, there was also a disclaimer after. And I think it’s quite important to mention that so these numbers are coming from very different studies with very varying methodologies. So I don’t want people to get hung up on the numbers. “It’s exactly 21% over here, it is exactly 26%.” It’s just about giving a rough idea about how important these things are. But it doesn’t mean that you should be comparing them exactly, because I said they come from different studies. But in general research shows that social integration is at least as important as diet and exercise and perhaps even more important than diet and exercise. Even though diet and exercise are of course, very important for your health and longevity. But these things are maybe even more.
Marta Z:
So in the perfect scenario you’ll be eating healthy and exercising and making sure you’re socially integrated, that you’re involved in your community, that you have purpose in life. But also when we talk about diet and exercise, once again, it’s not this obsessive type of diet and exercise when we’re searching for all the best miracle foods and diets and eating Manuka honey sprinkled with Goji berries and popping all the possible telomere enhancing supplements. It’s simple, it’s just avoiding junk food and too much sugar, eating your fruits and veggies, which can be perfectly fine, carrots and apples and pears, there’s nothing wrong with them. They are very healthy and good for you. So, simple but still very important.
Warwick F:
No, absolutely. And I grew up in Australia but live in the US now. My wife’s American, we’ve lived here about 30 years. There are some comparisons that I found fascinating. You talk about eating at the dinner table together and in France, I think you mentioned people in their 30s and 40s, 61% eat with their families at night compared to 24% of Americans. That just makes so much sense, I mean, I’m blessed, we have three kids in their 20s and because of COVID they’re all living with us, and pretty much every night we do eat together. I mean that’s the way I grew up, in Australia we always ate together. I mean once in a while on the weekend maybe we’ll watch TV, but, yeah, that sense of just being together as you eat maybe again, Australian culture is different than American. So, when I was growing up, I can’t ever remember eating food in the car.
Warwick F:
That was anathema, it’s just having moved here and got married, I had to realize people do do that, which I thought was somewhat barbaric. I’m sure anybody in France would agree that eating in the car is barbaric, I don’t know about Poland but certainly the French would certainly believe it’s… But yeah, that sense of just… And often we’ll be talking around the dinner table and time will be getting on and I’ll want to wash the dishes and relax and we’re still talking. And I’m not that impatient, I like socializing. It’s not a five minute meal, I mean it’s and hour, hour and a half, I mean it’s every night. So, I guess we’re unusual. But talk about people don’t do that that much certainly in America, maybe Canada too, so, there are certain cultural things that have just changed in the last 30, 40 years that are not for the good, don’t you think?
Marta Z:
I mean, certainly. I lived in Canada for several years, obviously, and I got used to eating in my car as well, and eating while walking down the street and then I moved to France and I discovered but it’s a horrible faux pas to eat in your car or walking down the street, you just don’t do that. People will be looking at you like, “You’re a crazy person.” So, I would never do that right now and one time I was somewhere away for work and I actually had to eat a sandwich rushing from one meeting to another walking down the street. And I felt so horrible, I actually… I had the sandwich in my handbag and I was sneaking like a kid in school, eating during class. And it’s true that for the French, eating at a table is extremely important. In all Mediterranean cultures, for instance, my daughter here in a French school, she has a two hour break for lunch and for at least an hour they sit at a table and eat.
Marta Z:
They’re having an appetizer, then a second appetizer and the main dish then cheese platter and then the dessert. So, it’s something extremely important for the culture here. And this is what I also write about in Growing Young, that we often focus so much on the Mediterranean diet in terms of what kind of nutrients it contains. How much olive oil people are taking in when they’re eating a Mediterranean diet, how many grams of tomatoes or how much wine they’re drinking and calculating everything in this reductionist way, exactly. Whereas, an extremely important part of the Mediterranean diet is actually how they eat. It’s not only about what they eat, it’s important, but it’s not only that, it’s also how they eat. In Spain and Italy and France in those Mediterranean cultures you eat with other people. You eat slowly, you take your time, you talk, this is extremely important. So if you eat the same diet, the Mediterranean diet, in your car alone, it won’t have the same beneficial effects for your health. So, there is a huge part that we are missing in North America, I think.
Warwick F:
Yeah. And you make a very good point, I mean as a science writer you obviously want to understand cause and effect accurately. And so in some of these Blue Zones, Sardinia which… Island off of Italy, you study, “Boy look how the people live long and they’re healthy.” Well, yes, and they do eat, I’m sure, fruit, vegetables, olive oil, salads. But they probably eat amongst friends, they have social clubs, they help their friends and neighbors. A lot of the things you talk about in this book they do as part of their culture. And so how do you figure out what’s the diet and what’s some of the social factors? I mean, it’s probably not the easiest thing in the world to isolate. But while it’s hard to isolate, you can’t discount… You can’t say, “Oh, it’s all the Mediterranean diet.” I mean that’s a good point, but, I mean, I’ve seen documentaries on Blue Zones and they talk about some of these other things but it seems like the focus is on the diet, not on the other.
Marta Z:
I mean, for instance real life experiments was what happened and something you’ve mentioned earlier on, the Roseto. Roseto was a town in Pennsylvania that was actually settled by immigrants from Italy. And when they came over to Pennsylvania, they actually abandoned their Mediterranean diet very, very fast, unfortunately, and started eating a typical American diet, very greasy diet with lots of sausages and meat and they drank a lot of alcohol, a lot of beer. So they were definitely not eating healthy, they were also smoking a lot. And at the same time, this Roseto became famous because nobody were dying of heart attacks there. This attracted attention of scientists and doctors back in the 1960s. It was very far apart from all the surrounding areas, even though they had the same health care, same water system, similar social profiles, horrible diet, once again. And yet people were living much longer, I think their mortality rates were 30% lower, which is huge.
Marta Z:
So the doctors started studying the people there, they discovered it’s not in their genes either, there was nothing in there. But what was special about this town was that people there brought this exactly Mediterranean culture with them. So they were extremely social, they were constantly visiting, everybody knew all their neighbors. They were having huge backyard parties where everybody was invited. They were taking care of their front yards so the town would look pretty for everybody. They had 22 civic organizations in a town of 2,000 people, which was unbelievable. And so, scientists concluded that this was what was making them healthy, and this was named the Roseto effect. And also what the scientists did, they predicted back then in 1960 that were the Rosetans ever to abandon their ways and follow the usual American dream, the effects would disappear.
Marta Z:
And this is unfortunately what has happened in the ’80s and ’90s when the next generation started to move to the suburbs, work longer hours to be able to afford bigger houses, started driving in their bigger cars and they stopped visiting, they stopped having these community relationships. They stopped taking part in the civic organizations, and unfortunately, by now, their health just is the American average. This protective effect and their amazing cardiovascular health has completely disappeared.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s very instructive. They were eating an unhealthy diet, but yet, they were living long, but once they abandoned that tight-knit social lifestyle, their health changed. That would seem to be very determinative. One other thing, before we get to purpose, I found fascinating is you talk about committed romantic relationship, which obviously could be marriage. But you differentiate that between cohabiting where there’s not a life-long commitment. Obviously marriage in theory, it’s clearer, but whether it’s marriage or some alternative where you go in there thinking, “We’re doing this for life.” The fact that it lowers mortality by 49%, I mean, even with a room mate, I think I read somewhere maybe 20% or something, I mean, that’s just staggering, the effect of a committed long-term relationship such as marriage. So talk about why that makes such a difference?
Marta Z:
I mean, it boils down to our sense of security in the most basic form. So if you think about it, we are social apes. So we evolved to be with our tribe and this is where we feel the safest and this is where our bodies function the best. And so, our fight or flight response, so for instance, our HPA axis or hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, this stress response that activated back in evolutionary past when you stumbled up on a lion on the savanna, and today is activated by anything from your mortgage worries to traffic jams, this functions the best when we are with others. Basically we feel safe when we are with other people. And when you are in a committed relationship like that, the committed part is important because you know that the other person will be there for you for better or for worse. And then all the stress responses can function better because you know there is some support. You are not alone.
Marta Z:
And so all the biological processes that’s carrying on when we are stressed from different expression of genes related to our inflammation levels to antiviral response to cancer progression, all these kind of things function better when we feel safe. So this is part of it. The other part of it is also for instance that we exchange microbes with other people. So, we know that we exchange microbes with our friends, with our family, but in particular with our romantic partners, because we touch, because we kiss, and the more diverse people have their gut microbes, generally, the better their health functions. There are also other connections, there are social hormones that we have like oxytocin and serotonin for instance, that get released when we are touching, when we are talking, when we are looking deeply into each others’ eyes. When we are getting old, these warm feelings of trust and connection but also that have, down stream, very biological effects on our bodies.
Marta Z:
So for instance, oxytocin has antiinflammatory effects, serotonin has effects on the liver, endorphins are a natural painkiller. So we have all these hormones that, at the one hand, are acting as the social connection hormones and then on the other hand, have very direct biological effects on our body. Including allowing gut microbiome, everything is connected and talking, all these two-way pathways between our brain and gut and all the hormones interacting the best and working the best when we are feeling safe, connected and that we can trust people around us.
Gary S:
And the flip side of what you were talking about, and Warwick’s question about how committed relationships, friendships, those kind of things help you, help longevity, chapter five in your book, deals with the negative side of that, the lack of that. That’s called the Gnawing Parasite of Loneliness. Explain a little bit about, I mean, we especially in America, we can hear a lot about feeling lonely and there’s the connection quote—unquote that comes from some of our electronic ability to interact with one-another. But studies, I think, have shown that, that isn’t really connection. What is the effect of loneliness on what you just described? Right, the absence of all of those things? What does that do to us?
Marta Z:
Yeah, so loneliness is the flip side of it. So you have all these systems activated so, for instance, we know that people who are lonely, they have shorter telomeres so those protective caps at your ends of chromosomes that take part in aging they have different gene expression when it comes to counter progression or negative they have more inflammation levels they have worse antiviral response they even respond worse to vaccinations. So, there are lots of things that are happening when we are lonely and this is already becoming more and more recognized by health authorities around the world, for instance, in the UK they now have a ministry for loneliness because they know that this is costing the public health care system money, and a lot of money. There were even some calculation how much exactly, I don’t remember the figures, but they were very high. Also, in Manitoba in Canada is a ministry for senior loneliness.
Marta Z:
So, they’re becoming recognized that it’s a really big problem for our health. And it is true that the online connection doesn’t give us the same things, which of course, brings us the pandemic and a lot of people are asking me these days, “Are we doomed? Are we going to all live shorter because we are not connecting now? And is it really only bad for our health?” And whereas it’s definitely not good for our health to be separated and not being able to connect in our natural, normal ways with other people, on the other hand, when scientists study social inclusion and loneliness, the questions they usually ask people are, “Are there any people out there on whom you can count? Is there anybody out there who would bring you soup if you were sick? Is there anybody out there whom you could call and talk about your problems?”
Marta Z:
And the thing is, even though we’re right now isolating these things haven’t disappeared. So if you had friends like that, they can still bring you the soup and drop it at your doorstep, even if you can not meet them in person, you can still pick up the phone and call them. So I don’t think this is the same kind of loneliness that researchers are talking about in the research papers. Because they are talking about chronic loneliness so that you really do not have people like that. There is nobody who would bring you some medicines if you were sick. There is nobody who will drive you to the airport. There’s nobody who you can call. And this is when it’s problematic.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s fascinating. But another thing… A lot of things that I found fascinating, you talk about the power of meditation, different religious traditions, different philosophies such as Viyoga and maybe it’s a way of controlling, regulating emotions, feelings. You mentioned an example of somebody that could have a root canal, I think it was, and through meditation, was able to deal with the pain which I find fascinating. And I’m a person of faith so I think of prayer, at least from my perspective, when I try and relate it to what you talk about, prayer and meditation, and it’s just fascinating how in different religious traditions they tell you how to meditate or how to pray.
Warwick F:
And some of the ways that you do that actually makes some degree of sense. It’s like some people analyze in great detail the Lord’s Prayer, which anybody in the Christian tradition, like it or not, have to recite. But when you analyze the different aspects of it, from almost like a meditative perspective, there are things like focusing on not yourself, but some other higher power. Something external. There’s realizing maybe there’s some higher power in control, that’s assertive, there’s focusing anybody that’s serious about prayer will tell you, don’t go to God with your laundry list, that is a quote—unquote wrong way to pray. Focus on praying for other people. So as I read meditation, I could really… And there’s some of these traditions I can translate it in terms of prayer, it was very similar conceptually. So talk about how whether it’s prayer, meditation, different religious traditions, how they help you regulate your psyche and in some ways also add to longevity. What’s the relationship between all of that?
Marta Z:
I mean, so generally thinking about, exactly, something outside of yourself, so that’s what I write about in Growing Younger, is looking outwards, right? Not only inside yourself, “What I’m eating? What I’m ingesting? How many steps I take?” That looking how you can be helpful? How you can add something to the community? How you can be kind? How you can be better? And this is all, beside the prize when I write about kindness and empathy and volunteering for instance, it has huge impact on health, and generally caring for other people. Also meaning and purpose, it’s also about looking outside of yourself at the bigger picture of how you can be helpful. The last chapter of my book I write about Japan, and I traveled there to talk to people, researchers and also some centenarians about longevity and one extremely important part of longevity research and longevity conversation in Japan, is Ikigai so this purpose in life, meaning in life, reason for living.
Marta Z:
And it’s so important for them that even their ministry of health actually when they are talking about stuff to help longevity, they actually talk about Ikigai as much as they talk about diet and exercise. So it’s truly recognized as really boosting health and there is plenty of research showing it lowers your risk, for example, for cardiovascular problems and other health problems and general. And Ikigai it’s exactly about contributing something to others. Sometimes I ask in interviews in the West for instance, can golfing be my Ikigai? And generally the answer is unfortunately not, it has to be something outside of yourself. No matter how small. So for instance, the Japanese people I talked with, they told that their Ikigai is taking care of their grandchildren, or making sure their front yard looks pretty so the neighbors can enjoy it.
Marta Z:
This is also why many Japanese people take on something they call silver hair jobs. This is when they are already post retirement age, but they decide to take on very simple, easy jobs, usually part-time, not to make money, but to be still involved in something. To be giving back to the community, so they can be public space gardeners, they can be helping children cross on the way to school, they can be doing things like that. And they usually say, “We do it because of Ikigai.” So they can feel needed, they feel involved, they feel they’re giving back. And this is exactly what’s so powerful in both kindness and finding meaning when it comes to longevity and health.
Warwick F:
I think it’s fascinating what you’re saying, Marta, because in Ikigai the focus is obviously, outward focused. It’s caring for their neighbors, their grandkids. It’s not some internally-focused purpose. I mean that’s when we talk about in Crucible Leadership, a life of significance, which we view as the goal more than success. Not that success is wrong and you write about this, I’m sure I read it there somewhere but from our perspective significance is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Now what that could be could be a very different things, depends on your values, your perspective, what’s on your heart.
Warwick F:
But the fact that it seems like in Ikigai… And you visited a number of different places one, Matakaoa in Nagano province, which I guess is where they had the ’98 Winter Olympics which seemed to be one of the hubs of this, I think you write that men live longer there than the whole of Japan, 82.2 years, 10 years longer than some folks in the US. As you visited these towns, and you talk about what you saw, that it’s really focused on others, right? It was not… I’m not against self-actualization, but it was other-focused. That was really the key to Ikigai, right? It wasn’t just making my dreams, my, my, my this. It was more the community.
Marta Z:
Yeah. I mean, definitely among the older population because there’s another thing, Japan is changing very fast, right? So this is also what researchers are very much worried about, that even though they are now the longest living nation on the planet, this is because of culture and values that they’ve had previous generations. But whether in 40, 50 years Japan still will be such a long lived nation is another question because the younger people is changing very much. So they’re much more consumption-oriented, they are much more following western values and so this is disappearing. But definitely when you look at the older people, they do have those beliefs, they really do look outwards. They really care about their community, how their village or town square looks like, about helping others. They do those silver hair jobs, it’s actually very, very common in Japan, this is not some kind of exception for crazy people. This is actually mainstream, so, certainly these values this made them such a long lived nation. But if they change, then this will no longer continue.
Warwick F:
And I almost feel like even in the West, some of these things are beginning to creep in. Somebody wrote a book a number of years ago, Halftime, which is the first half of your life, maybe you’re successful and then second half is for significance. I think all our life should be significance but that’s another discussion. But I think more and more, even younger people, they want purpose and meaning. If there are two jobs, one pays slightly better, 10% better but you just feel like a small cog in a machine, you don’t feel like you’re treated well, and there’s no purpose or meaning, you probably won’t want it. More and more companies are trying to say, in America I can think of some examples like Southwest Airlines the most successful, probably best run airline. Their whole mission was to make travel affordable to connect families.
Warwick F:
That was their reason for being. So, if you join that, it was like, “Well, that’s a purpose in life outside of yourself that you can believe in.” Who wouldn’t want to make, especially 20 years ago, when airline travel is not cheap, but it was much more expensive in days gone by, who wouldn’t want to help families get together through affordable travel? So, some of the smart companies, at least I observe, are drifting towards, because their employees want it, younger people want purpose and meaning. So do you see, I don’t know if there’s any data on this, but do you see some of that even in the West, maybe it’s not because of living longer that there’s a desire for meaning and purpose in life and that might be a lot of different things, it’s not organized religion or anything, but there is a sense that people yearn for purpose there’s almost a growth in that desire. Do you see that at all in the West?
Marta Z:
I mean, I’ve heard about it, I haven’t seen hard data on intergenerational differences. I’ve definitely seen data on how the pandemic has changed our search for meaning for the better. In general when times are tough, humans start to look for purpose and meaning and there are several surveys right now showing that many people in the pandemic are looking more for purpose and meaning than they were before. And I think this is a very good change, both from society’s perspective, our mental health perspective and also from our health and longevity perspective. So, it’s certainly good news that it’s shifting our focus and making us look at those things a little bit more.
Gary S:
This is a perfect time to inject this bit of information, Marta, that you said in your article in the Washington Post that got Warwick excited to have you on the show. You indicated that according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention four out of 10 Americans haven’t yet managed to find purpose in their lives. And I did, just before we hopped on this call, I did a quick survey of four in 10 Americans on Google, just to see what else four in 10 Americans have done.
Gary S:
And here’s the interesting thing, I’m not a big statistics guy, I’m a word guy not a number guy, but it seems like four in 10 tends to be the figure that’s used for things that aren’t good, right? So four in 10 Americans, for instance, have no idea have no idea how credit scores work, okay? Four in 10 Americans are now obese, that’s germane to this conversation. Four in 10 Americans from a study in 2015 breathe polluted air and then my favorite one, which is not good, is four in 10 Americans said that they would rather give up their dog than give up their phone.
Marta Z:
Oh my goodness. That’s bad.
Gary S:
That’s terrible. And it goes exactly against what we have been talking about. So I bring that to you to say, yes, if people are anecdotally, you’re hearing people are moving toward more of that, why is it so hard still that 40% are still having a hard time finding that purpose and what, based on your research maybe, is a tip or two you could give them to help get them in the right direction to find what we would call, a life of significance?
Marta Z:
I mean, it’s just spending time on it. I think people just don’t put it on their schedule to just sit down without looking at their phones and just think about, “What’s my purpose and meaning?” And I believe anybody can find it, it can be found everywhere. There was this one fascinating study I’ve read about hospital workers, and it was actually about the cleaning staff of hospitals and some of them considered their jobs absolutely horrible, they were like, “Oh, it’s horrible, I’m cleaning the toilets. It sucks, it’s a bad job. I don’t like it.” And so on, but there was also a small part of those hospital workers who actually said that they loved their jobs because they give them amazing sense of meaning. And the reason for that was that they had a different perspective on what they were doing.
Marta Z:
So, they didn’t consider themselves as just people who cleaned toilets, they considered themselves as people who are helping the patients get better and the doctors and nurses to work better and generally to help the hospital function and bring people back to health. They felt that cleaning the floor was keeping the germs away, clean toilets was making it more pleasant for the patients. So just by shifting the focus, they made exactly the same job suddenly really good and giving them purpose and meaning. So I really believe that most people can find in their jobs and what can find in their jobs and what they’re doing, some kind of sense of meaning. But you have to really try, you have to spend some time to think about those things, what could it be? Can it be your family or maybe your community involvement or anything. Even when we’re talking about kindness, which is related to purpose and meaning. Research shows that acts of kindness can lower levels of our stress hormone, cortisol and generally change our gene expression. But the kind acts they are talking about, they’re usually quite small.
Marta Z:
It doesn’t require some huge, donating $1 million to charity. You can for instance just open doors for someone to let them ahead of you. You can let people ahead of you in traffic. You can pick up trash in your neighborhood. Just really small things. And yet they make all the difference. And I think it’s the same thing with purpose. Of course it’s great if your purpose in life is to save the world from climate change, awesome, but it can also be something small, very small steps and it’s all about shifting your perspective and just thinking about those things in the first place.
Warwick F:
One other related thing on purpose I find fascinating, I think you write it in your article and in the book is, when, as we say, you go through crucible experiences, sometimes there can be greater meaning and purpose. You write about World War II there was a greater sense of purpose, I think, in France than almost any other time since or something. There’s a sense of, “We’re fighting against Nazi Germany and the resistance and many acts of heroism. I think in your article you talk about Viktor Frankl the Austrian psychiatrist and Holocaust survivor that hypothesized that higher purpose gives people a will to stay alive. And it’s horrific, the experiences. Talk about how sometimes nobody want’s to go through crucible experiences but sometimes our purpose in life or our purpose can come amidst very challenging circumstances?
Marta Z:
So I had this other article in the Washington Post the post-traumatic growth and this is a phenomenon recognized in psychology as something sometimes comes after post-traumatic stress disorder. Which of course, is a very bad thing to happen to you when you have this kind of traumatic experience. But for 13% of the people research is still uncertain for how many, depends on various factors, they can actually experience growth. So they consider themselves as stronger and more connected to other people and generally better off then they would otherwise have been if this traumatic event has not happened to them. Which is absolutely fascinating and this research has been done on war prisoners on victims of hurricanes and earthquakes and really people who have traumatic experiences.
Marta Z:
And yet if they manage to, especially if they manage to talk through it with other people, if they manage find, exactly purpose and meaning perhaps in the experience they can emerge even stronger than they would’ve otherwise been. Which, for me, it really gives me hope that even if something really, really bad happens, there can be still something positive perhaps coming out of it. Especially now that we are living in this pandemic and we know from previous studies on the first SARS epidemic that a lot of healthcare workers and people who were hospitalized, they experience PTSD but there are also emerging studies showing that there were also people experiencing post-traumatic growth after the SARS pandemic. So there are potentially some silver linings here.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, as we sum up, what fascinated me about your book and the article was just we talk a lot to our listeners about how you bounce back from crucibles. It could be your fault or not your fault, failure, setbacks and as Gary always says at the end of the podcast, crucibles don’t have to be the end of your story. They can be the beginning of exciting new chapter. And what I like about what you write in your book is, you provide really a roadmap, in a sense, I mean, it’s not necessarily your purpose, but you write a roadmap of how to recover from crucible experiences just by following the data.
Warwick F:
By obviously finding purpose and as you find purpose you want to do it in community because you’re going to need support, you don’t want to be alone. Thinking of others, kindness, empathy, meditation, prayer, different ways to get internally centered. These are all things to get beyond crucibles and live a fulfilling, satisfying life. I mean, pretty much every chapter has an aspect, committed relationships, that really help you live a, not just a long life, but a contented, joyful life. If you follow these things. Which, again, may not have been your purpose, but it does provide a roadmap for getting beyond crucibles and leading a joy-filled life. I mean it probably partly was your purpose too, but does that make some kind of sense?
Marta Z:
I mean, totally. This is why I also called the book Growing Young. It was not about becoming younger in a way that you’re going to have less wrinkles. It was about growing as a person, so you grow as a person, and if you grow as a person you also stay younger, you stay in better health, right? So, this was an extremely important aspect for me. And also find your worthy in a way that if we will improve we will become better, we become kinder more socially connected, find meaning, give back to the community, become more optimistic that we can actually also improve our health, both mental and physical.
Gary S:
Now, that sound that you heard, listener, was the captain turning on the fasten seat belts sign and we’re coming to the place where we need to land the plane. As that happens I’m duty-bound to tell you do not turn your phones on. Not only because the flight attendants say not to, but because as Marta’s been talking about spending too much time on your phones can be bad for your sense of purpose, for your longevity. Marta, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity as we begin to wrap up here to let listeners know how they can find out more about your book and find out more about you.
Marta Z:
I mean, so you can find it in all the usual book selling places from Amazon to all the small booksellers and you can also find it on my website, which is www.growingyoungthebook.com and you can find me on twitter and Instagram at @mzaraska so M-Z-A-R-S-K-A.
Gary S:
Excellent. Warwick, do you have a final thought, a final question before we wrap?
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, Marta, again thanks so much for being here. When I first read that article about purpose can help you live a longer life and then read the book, everything resonated. Having purpose defined as thinking of others, it could be a big purpose, climate change as you put it. But it could be just helping your neighborhood, like the folks in Japan. Just cleaning the sidewalks outside the house, not just so much for them, but just to make the whole street look better. I think of when you go to these Swiss villages and gosh every little house has some geraniums or flowers outside. I mean every single one, it’s just staggering and the sidewalks also look spotless. So, I don’t know, maybe they have a similar concept, but yeah, just this sense of caring for others, of optimism, committed relationships, community, internal centering mechanisms, whether it’s meditation or prayer.
Warwick F:
They will help you live longer, have more purpose and have more joy. So the fact that there’s some data behind doing things that seemed to me to be common sense and that actually says you will live longer and live healthier, I mean, I just found it very affirming and very encouraging. And I hope people will really pay attention to what you’ve said in your book and not ditch diet and exercise, which you’re not talking about that. Just do what you need to do to be healthy but don’t overly obsess about the latest supplement or the latest fad and don’t ignore the social side, the purpose side. You can do both, you do both you might actually be healthier and more joyful in all ways. I think your book is really, it has such an important message. It’s really a clarion call for people to… Don’t ignore the social side. So it was really very affirming, very challenging.
Marta Z:
Thank you.
Gary S:
Well, listener, that sound you heard was the landing gear landing on the tarmac. We have wrapped this episode of Beyond the Crucible. Here again is Growing Young, Marta Zaraska’s book. So please, get it, it’s a fascinating read. It’s one of those that people in your household get upset with you because you open it up and you can’t put it down. And they’re like, “Come to dinner.” “Wait a minute, I have to read more, there’s still more to come.” But one of the things that it points out, before I summarize some take aways here, one of the things I think it points out, if I had to summarize it and I wrote this on my notes, is that doing the things in this book, finding your purpose and applying your purpose and living your purpose make the world a better place and let you enjoy it longer. And those are two great things to put together. You’re improving your environment, your improving your world and your improving your life in terms of you can live longer.
Gary S:
And to that end, listener, here are some take aways and I’m going to, for the take aways, I’m going to use the statistics and I’m going to preface some of these statistics with Marta’s explanation that there’s are not set in cement, these are from different studies with different methodologies and so don’t take this the statistics so much to heart as you would the arrow that they point toward. That these are good statistics, they’re not walking around quoting them verbatim may not because they’re not all universal. But from this book I have pulled three tips, one is, volunteering lowers your risk of death by 22%. That is a fascinating statistic. And again, don’t get hung up on the number, get hung up on the arrow. Volunteering can make your life longer and better and the benefit of that, if you volunteer to help someone who’s lonely, that helps their life as well. The second thing is, improving close relationships has a 45% again, don’t get hung up on the number, it has a great impact on your longevity, by improving close relationships.
Gary S:
Having those people that Marta described who will call you up when you’re sick and bring you soup or bring you medicine. Those kind of people, even in this situation we’re in now with the pandemic. You can still have close relationships and you can still work on those things. And then the one that I ended our conversation with. This statistic is a bit stark but it’s one of those statistics we can change, 40% in the US haven’t found their purpose yet. Here’s the good news about that, we can change it. You can put down your phone, you can unplug your video game. You can watch this, if you’re on YouTube, if you’re not I’m going to describe for you what I’m doing, I am taking off my fitness tracker. You can take off your fitness tracker and not be obsessed about it. If you do those things then you think about it and take, as Warwick often has said, when you think about your purpose you think about your purpose and you can take, as Warwick often says one small step toward it.
Gary S:
What that small step is, is going to vary for everybody listening to this conversation. But that’s how you find your purpose. Think about it and then act on it, take one small step to find out what that might be that aligns with your values and your talents and then go pursue it. So, listener, until the next time that we’re together here on Beyond the Crucible, thank you for spending time with us in this truly enlightening conversation with Marta Zaraska. If you would do a favor for Warwick and I, click, subscribe to the podcast app on which you’re listening to this show right now. That helps us reach more people with these kinds of conversations, which are eye-opening. And hopefully experience opening for you as it leads you down the road to pursue that life of purpose.
Gary S:
And until we are together the next time, remember this, that your crucible experiences is painful and it’s real and we know that. We’ve been through those things but it does not have to be the end of your story. In fact, it will not be the end of your story, if you learn the lessons of that crucible, if you apply the lessons of that crucible to your life as you move forward. The reason it’s not the end of your story, the reason it’s the beginning of a new chapter in your story and the most rewarding chapter of your story is that, that new chapter, that new experience, those lessons you’ve learned applied to your life as you go forward can lead you to a life of significance.
Chris Leeuw had his entire life ahead of him — and it looked very bright. A self-described “adrenaline junkie,” he reveled in outdoor activities like water-skiing and kayaking and loved his job in local TV news. It all changed in a tragic instant. Chris, at 28, was paralyzed from the neck down in a freak recreational diving accident — and thought he’d never walk or be able to care for himself again. But despite the physical and financial crucibles he faced, he refused to give up. Chris let every physical sensation he began to feel again fuel his drive to pursue the most cutting-edge treatment and rehabilitation — and work tirelessly to achieve the healing he once dared not imagine was possible. Now, just more than a decade later, he has regained much of his mobility and something just as life-changing: a passion for helping others with spinal-cord injuries via the nonprofit rehabilitation center he founded.
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Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Chris L:
So, we counted to three, jumped off feet first. And I remember falling, and I can hear the velocity. It was a long drop. Looking at the water, and then I hit the water. I knew something was drastically wrong. And it’s hard to sort of explain it other than the feeling of as if I had got hit by stun gun or something like that. It was a far drop, the water was cold. At first, I thought maybe I had whiplash or something. But all I could tell was it was as if I’d been hit by a stun gun and I was totally completely frozen. I just couldn’t move anything. I didn’t feel anything. There was no pain. I didn’t feel like anything had hit me. But I was in the water, and I couldn’t move, and I was utterly frozen. And I remember just being in complete confusion, but I couldn’t move. And I was just floating in between the water and the ground. I always mention that it felt like I was an astronaut drifting somewhere in space.
Gary S:
That’s a pretty dramatic story, isn’t it? But would you believe it’s not the most dramatic thing about the crucible experience of our guest today. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger co-host of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. Today’s guest is Chris Leeuw. And what he just described was a devastating recreational diving accident that left him a quadriplegic, and in an instant tragedy that almost killed him. But as you’ll hear in his conversation with Warwick, Chris refused to let paralysis be the end of his story. After two years of arduous rehab complicated by some setbacks with his insurance coverage, he battled back not only to regain movement and mobility, but to found a non-profit rehab center where he lives his life of significance helping others move beyond their physical and emotional crucibles.
Warwick F:
Well, Chris, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it. You have just an amazing story in how you’ve come back from what… I mean, it’s hard to believe what you have, achieved is probably not the right word, but what you’ve overcome. It is almost literally unbelievable. I’m sure a lot of people have said what you did is maybe not impossible, but close. So obviously the turning point in your life was that spinal cord injury. But tell me a bit about Chris Leeuw and growing up and career. And what was life like before age 28? What was the before story, so to speak?
Chris L:
Well, thanks for having me, Warwick. It’s really good to talk to you and Gary, good to see you both. And I appreciate you thinking of me in your podcast. The premise of your podcast definitely relates to my life. I know it relates to a lot of other people as well, struggles we go through. So I appreciate you having me on. Obviously, my life changed a lot as you heard in the introduction. But early on, wondering about pre-injury and pre life-changing moment. I was hurt at age 28. But before then, I think I was always a very active individual. I was an adrenaline junkie a little bit. A little bit how I got paralyzed, and you’ll probably recognize that. But I grew up in Indianapolis in a very fortunate upper middle-class family.
Chris L:
My family is amazing. They were a huge part of my recovery. They were a huge part of the clinic I’m in now. I grew up very fortunate having that nuclear family. I always had a sense of adventure, I was always active. I was always the guy that was, you couldn’t keep me still getting into activities here and there and always wanting to do more. And I think that sort of led me to my first career path, which was in television and news. I was drawn to being a reporter because think about what a reporter does, they’re out and about, they’re doing stories, doing the community. No day is different. I really found that to be a big part of who I was as a person early on, never wanting to sit still, always wanting to get out there and do things.
Warwick F:
So, as you were growing up were things you liked to do with your mom and dad, I mean, sports, you’re a very active person. Were there things that you just loved doing?
Chris L:
I had two passions when I was younger. One of them was water skiing and wakeboarding. I did that since about the age five or six. I was on a pair of skis and I was on the Indiana University Water Ski Club and I actually taught water skiing and wakeboarding in college in the Berkshire, Massachusetts mountains. And the one was playing the drums. I played the drums since I was about age five or six, too. My parents got me involved in activities because I was so restless all the time. And those are some of the things that I definitely had a passion for growing up.
Warwick F:
I can imagine. Don’t let Chris sit still. Keep him busy. Which makes sense. And so, reporting now. I mean, you mentioned you loved being on the go, but how did you pick that? And was that in Indianapolis or where did you start out with TV reporting?
Chris L:
I majored in telecommunications and business at Indiana University. I really liked, I really enjoyed the filmmaking part of it as well. So, that was part of the whole thing that drew me into journalism. But also just the storytelling part. I always liked a little bit of the adrenaline, I think of even just public speaking, and being live on air. There’s always is always nervous, but then afterwards, you liked it. So, maybe that was part of it that drew me to it as well. But a lot of it was just I didn’t see myself having an office job at that age in my early 20s, and I wanted to just do something that had to do with being active.
Warwick F:
That’s great. That was local, was it?
Chris L:
That’s how I gravitated toward that. And then I actually I went to graduate school for journalism after my undergraduate degree, but there are definitely times between there that I was bouncing around not knowing I was going to do exactly with life. It wasn’t like I was like, “Okay, as soon as I graduate, I’m going to go into this profession. So, I guess to answer your question, I started in Indiana. I also worked at some news stations in Florida, and then back to Indiana.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Gary S:
This is the first time… I just have to note this for the record. This is the first time on Beyond the Crucible that we have three people with journalism backgrounds all sharing the microphones.
Chris L:
It’s true.
Gary S:
We’ve got Chris, a former television journalist. Gary, the co-host, a former newspaper journalist, and Warwick, former magnate who owned a company that owned both print and electronic journalism outlets. So, look at us.
Chris L:
There you go.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So, I never actually was a reporter. But yeah, on the different sides. So talk about that fateful day. As I was understanding it was Southern Indiana. You were kayaking. It was just a probably beautiful warm day. You were out as you love doing in nature and water. I guess you weren’t quite water skiing, but you were kayaking. And you must have thought, “Boy, life is just awesome.” You’re with some buddies. So, take us through that day because it started out probably as just a wonderful warm day.
Chris L:
Yeah, it was a 95 degree hot, humid, Midwestern day. And I was with two of my best friends, and we were kayaking. And it’s one of those things where a typical summer Sunday you’re having fun with your friends. I was at the age where… At age 28, you have your life ahead of you. At that point you don’t really realize it at the time. I mean, I’m 39 now so there’s been 11 years that have passed since then I’ve learned a whole lot. But that day I look back at that day often. And you just no idea what’s in store in life in general. You think you have things figured out even when you’re young at that age, going into the professional world. But obviously, I had no idea what was in store for me later that afternoon.
Chris L:
So we’re kayaking on this river, and we approach this bridge that’s over the river. It’s an abandoned bridge. It’s a truss bridge. And there were some people jumping off the bridge into the water, maybe about 20 feet or so into the water deep water, not overly dangerous, and was with my friends and we were like, “Oh yeah, we’re jumping off that bridge, too.” That’s supposed to be fun.
Warwick F:
Adrenaline junkies after all.
Chris L:
Yeah, I mean, it was hot. It was fun. I mean, it wasn’t anything more dangerous than maybe jumping off the high dive. It wasn’t ultimately that dangerous. But then jumped off a couple times, but then there was this higher truss, one of these big vertical beams that went way up higher about an extra 30 feet. And then I decided to climb up that as well. So I kind of scaled up this vertical beam up to the very top beam probably about 50, 60 feet above the water. And I always tell people, it felt like one of those construction pictures you see of New York City with people and the hardhats on.
Chris L:
That’s what it felt like on this beam over the treetops, and I’m about to jump off, and I hear this voice from down below, someone telling me to wait. It was a stranger. I didn’t know who he was. But I kind of looked down and said, “Okay, come on up if you want to jump with me.” I’m always good having a partner. So, I waited for him to climb up and we’re both sitting there like two birds on a little perch on a wire.
Chris L:
I can remember the conversation pretty clearly. I have been up there for a while, and I wanted to get off that beam. And he was like, he said to me, he said, “Wow, look you can see everything up here.” I remember cutting him off mid sentence, and I was like, “Yeah, that’s great. I’m going to jump in three seconds. So, are you ready?” And he said, “Yep.” So we counted to three, and jumped off feet first. And I remember falling, and I can hear the velocity when you… It was a long drop, looking at the water, and then I hit the water. I knew something was drastically wrong.
Chris L:
It’s hard to sort of explain it other than the feeling of as if I would’ve got hit by a stun gun or something. There was a far drop, the water was cold. At first, I thought maybe I had whiplash or something. But all I could tell was it was as if I had been hit by a stun gun, and I was totally completely frozen. I just couldn’t move anything. I didn’t feel anything. There was no pain. There was no… I didn’t feel like anything had hit me, but I was in the water, and I couldn’t move, and I was utterly frozen.
Chris L:
I remember just being in complete confusion. But I couldn’t move, and I was just floating in between the water and the ground. I always mention that it felt like I was an astronaut drifting somewhere in space. But I was frozen, I couldn’t move. After a few moments, I didn’t think about drowning at that moment, but it was pretty soon after that where that started being a very concern of mine. And after what felt like five minutes, it was probably only about maybe 10 or 15 seconds I felt this strange feeling on my back. And that’s when I realized that, okay, at least I was on the surface, but I was still head down facedown in the water. Yeah, I couldn’t I couldn’t move.
Chris L:
What happened was it turned out the gentleman that jumped with me, we jumped at the same time, we fell at about the same rate, he ended up coming in right on top of me as we struck the water simultaneously, and just snapped my neck at this fourth cervical level. So, just like that I was totally paralyzed from the neck down.
Warwick F:
This wasn’t one of your buddies, it was just some other guy that was there, right?
Chris L:
Right. Yeah. He was another person that was watching us jump.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So you didn’t… And so, as you’re up there, 50 foot up, and you’re about to go were you thinking that you were going to jump together? Or hey, let’s do it together? You didn’t think about, “Oh, gee, what could happen?” You think you’re just going to both jump on the water? It’s just not one, two, three, let’s go. It’s just-
Chris L:
Exactly, yeah.
Warwick F:
It doesn’t occur to you that that could even happen.
Gary S:
And it probably didn’t seem that different. I’ve seen when romantic couples dive off of cliffs, they hold hands and they jump at the same time. So, I would think why you guys probably weren’t holding hand is the fact that you jumped together at the same time didn’t seem that unordinary, right?
Chris L:
Right. Yeah, It didn’t at all. No, I mean, we weren’t holding hands, but we were very close to one another because the way up to that top truss was just this one vertical beam. And once you’re up on that beam, it’s not like we were walking around. It was so high. I didn’t think about it. But in hindsight I really beat myself up over it. Because I was like we were so close to each other when we jumped, we didn’t even think about it. And that’s what did it. We were just so close to each other.
Warwick F:
So, in that moment when obviously your face down, you can’t move, you’re not probably thinking, “Oh, gosh, I must be paralyzed.” You’re just confused, right? It’s like, “I don’t know what’s happening.” So, talk us through those first few moments, first maybe hour or two. I mean, what was going through your head?
Chris L:
The worst. I actually did sort of… Well, when I was facedown in the water I knew obviously something was wrong. I was very, very close to drowning because I was face down drifting a little bit. And I remember when you get to that point, if you’ve ever tried holding your breath underwater, you get to see how long you can do it. You get to that point where alarms going off in your head. I was definitely at that point. About the last second I started feeling someone tug my body and flipped me over. Then the second that happened, I just screamed out. I was like, “I’m awake, I’m awake. I’m conscious,” because I figured a lot of people might have thought I was unconscious. It was the guy that jumped on me. He eventually got to me, and flipped me over, and dragged me to shore.
Chris L:
As soon as I was on the shore, a lot of the commotions had stopped. But still it’s a very surreal feeling being paralyzed. It’s very surreal because just thinking, maybe this is going to wear off. Maybe it’s a little bit of whiplash. Within the span of a couple minutes you go from this carefree summer Sunday to constantly all of a sudden thinking that you see the no diving signs on swimming pools, and you hear the stories of people like Christopher Reeve who’s famous for he really is one of the people in the ’90s that put spinal cord injuries on the map and all those things ran through my head, too.
Chris L:
I think even in that early moments on that beach I just said, “Okay, just get up, just move. You can do this, just move.” And when you can’t, feeling like you’re stuck in concrete I started to realize that, okay, as the minutes went on that this was serious. I had been a lifeguard. So, I had done back boarding drills, and I some of those things are always in the back of your mind like, “Okay, well, do I have a spinal cord injury? Is this happening?”
Warwick F:
So, all those thoughts were in your mind.
Chris L:
They were.
Warwick F:
You knew, obviously, this was serious. And so, I mean, I suppose it’s inevitable, the sense of fear, panic. I mean, were all those pain. I mean, all those thoughts, physical and emotional all running through your mind in those first minutes and hours.
Chris L:
All of it. Yeah, a helicopter was called in, and they actually airlifted me to a hospital in Indianapolis, which was about half an hour away. I think when it really hit me was the next day when I had woken up out of surgery because they had gone under. They had reconstructed my neck. But the next the next morning when I woke up from surgery is the first time that I had fallen asleep and really woken back up to the reality. And I was on a ventilator. I had this tube down my throat that was breathing for me because my lungs were partially paralyzed. I can remember waking up… And the whole time I was totally conscious, even the moment I was injured. Nothing happened to my brain. I was never knocked unconscious. I was thinking and talking the way I am now. But that’s when it really hit me, was this the rest of my life?
Chris L:
It’s really the emotions that run through your mind not only not moving again. So many people think about, “Oh, yeah, I’ll never walk again.” But once you’re introduced to what it’s like being a quadriplegic where you need people to arrange your limbs. You need to so you don’t get bedsores. You need someone to cath you because you’d have no bowel and bladder function. And you are completely 100% dependent on everything. I get introduced to that part of the world in those early days and weeks in the ICU and in the hospital. And you think your life’s over. At the age of 28 I thought my life was over. And particularly as family and friends, they come visiting. It very much felt like I was living through my own weight. It was hard. Obviously, it goes without saying.
Warwick F:
What you’re saying is obviously the pain is one thing, but for somebody that was so active, the sense of the active Chris Leeuw is no more. The kayaking, the wakeboarding, the even newspaper reporting. I mean, it’s obviously possible in this day and age, but you’re just thinking, “Gosh,” I think of, I’m sure you’re familiar Joni Eareckson Tada who was paralyzed in a diving accident on the late ’60s, I don’t know at 16, 17, and she’s a person of faith and just had a radio show since. I don’t know if it’s 50 plus years that she’s been a quadriplegic and she was a horse rider and her life was permanently changed.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, I’ve read her book, listened to her story. It takes hours to get out of bed and hours to get ready for bed and there’s people helping her whole life. Obviously, fortunately, your trajectory changed a bit but that’s feeling of helplessness. People mean well and gee, Chris, how can I help you? What can I do for you? That’s very kind of them. They’re probably feeling I don’t want people to have to help me. I want to do this myself. Thank you for offering but all that niceness and kindness and helping you it probably some weird way was a bit depressing. Does that make any kind of sense?
Chris L:
It does. Suddenly, you need people to feed you and you need people to… You can’t even be upright in bed without your blood pressure dropping. All these little things happen when you’re quadriplegic. Helplessness is a very big… I felt completely helpless. Not only physically, but also just where my life was going to be going from that point on. Depending on the age of some of your listeners, if they’re in the older generation, you think back to when they were aged 28 and maybe in the beginning of having a family and all that and the beginning of a career and having a life in front of you, and all of a sudden having it snuffed out. Or if you’re a younger person now, think about right now, you think you have a problem now. You’re complaining about something. Well, all of that could change in the next 10 minutes, and that’s something that when all those thoughts are flooding your mind early on. Like I mentioned before, I 100% thought that my life was over.
Warwick F:
Yeah, and just hard to imagine how could I have a life as a quadriplegic? I mean, it’s not easy. It’s possible but at that moment it must have felt like as you say, life is over. So there’s the whole physically what do I do and we’ll get into your journey here very shortly, because that’s fascinating. But there’s also the recrimination side. It’s easy objectively to look to say, “Look, two young guys, they jump off things happen.” If it’s not you it’s easy to be objective and say, “Look, yeah, maybe it wasn’t the smartest thing to be up 50 foot, but plenty of people do that. The water was deep. It wasn’t that crazy.” So, if you’re not you, you can look at it objectively. But did you look back and get angry at yourself, angry at this person you didn’t know that jumped at the same time? Were there some self recrimination or anger at others? Was that any part of the whole mix of emotions in there?
Chris L:
I was very mad at myself. I was very mad at myself. Nothing toward the other person. In fact, he’s the one that saved my life because I almost drowned. I don’t mean this in any sort of exaggeration. I was maybe within a few seconds of drowning. That’s how long that I was face down floating. Yeah, I just beat up myself for like I said earlier, just being so close to each other. I was like, “Why did I not think of that?” Yeah, there was particularly, and a lot of a lot of those early days in the hospital. The nights were always the worst early on. When I moved to the hospital, I moved to the rehabilitation hospital, and even into the nursing home. My friends and family were around me all the time. But a lot of times at night, when I was there by myself, and I could do nothing but stare up at the ceiling. And just trying to comprehend what had happened as the weeks went by.
Chris L:
I think it’s okay to wallow in some of those situations, in any struggle you go through in life. But at some point you definitely have to move on. It takes a while to do that, particularly. And I know for my situation that as I was learning about my injury, and it’s been 11 years and part of me still wallows in some of the things that I can’t do anymore because I still do have a lot of… I still live with my injury quite a bit. But yes, that was a very long winded answer. But yes, there was definitely a lot of beating myself up.
Gary S:
Can I jump in and say something from the sheet that you gave us, Chris, because it goes to exactly the point that you’re talking about right now. And it’s interesting because you were 28, and Warwick when you went through your crucible with the takeover that’s roughly the age you were. And I know you went through some of that self recrimination stuff as well. But you said something, Chris, that dovetails off what you just said to us in your sheet that you gave us which was this. Everyone will encounter a devastating struggle in life. One person’s struggle can’t be compared to another’s. But whatever you encounter, you cannot let it define you. You can’t dwell. Find the fortitude to move on, and you will.
Gary S:
I think I’m hearing you, obviously, your experience and where you are now, what we’re going to get into as Warwick asks you more questions here in a bit is going to show that and Warwick listeners already know that’s your story as well. You had some struggle at the same age and you were able to move on. So again, we have this conversation a lot on this show. The details of your crucible can be different. And listener, you may not have become a quadriplegic in a “freakish accident.” And you certainly may not have lost a multi-billion dollar family media company, but the emotions behind them as you listen to Chris talk and you’ve heard Warwick talk, those emotions of man, I messed up. Man, I should have done that differently. Those emotions are legit. Those emotions are common, and you can get beyond them. These two gentlemen have proven that.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, Gary, so well said. I mean, it’s as you said, you can’t compare crucibles and what I went through, I feel like it’s nothing compared to what Chris has gone through and the physical emotional pain. But yet, yeah, I mean, listeners will have gone through all sorts of different crucibles. And it’s true. I mean, when I think of my life altering moment it was late March 1982 when I launched this $2 billion takeover. Once I pushed that button, life was never going to be the same. It caused a lot of friction within my family saying, “Why do you need to do that?” I was young, and idealistic thought, as listeners know, management needed to be changed, brought back to the ideals of the founder.
Warwick F:
Doesn’t really matter so much whether that was right or wrong, but it was life altering, and we’re fine financially. But I don’t live in Australia anymore. I mean, it’s just my wife’s American, which is very public. And still to this day there are times in which I look back and say, “I mean, I had an undergrad degree at Oxford, a Harvard Business School degree. How could I have been so stupid in doing that takeover? I mean, what a moron. I mean, why did I do it? Look, I’ve had decades to move on and I love what I do with Crucible Leadership, but it’s easy to be angry at yourself, or maybe little, slightly angry at other family members because if the family had been more together, maybe it wouldn’t have felt it was necessary. But it’s that sense of just trying to force yourself to move on.
Warwick F:
There’ll always be days when you reflect and think a bit about the terrible day. And again, I’m not trying to compare because what you went through is far more pain in a lot of ways, but yeah, no, I get what you’re saying, Gary, and it’s well said. So talk about you are in the hospital for I think a number of months, and that didn’t last forever. You’re making small progress. So, you went through a lot of mini-crucibles a lot of after that big one, a lot of steps. I mean, how did you have the perseverance just to want to not give up because it’s clear to me, you never gave up on life. You never said I’m not going to just sit here, I’m going to do whatever I can to get maximum recovery, whatever that might mean, right? How did you have that kind of determination to just keep trying?
Chris L:
I think… Well, first off a little bit, I’ll give you a very brief spinal cord injury 101, which is when I was hurt I knew nothing about it either. You assume you have a spinal cord injury and that’s it. But every injury is totally different. Same with a brain injury, same with a stroke. You don’t know how much damage has been done to your nervous system and mine was significant, clearly, because here I was several weeks out of my injury. And as the months rolled by, I’m still a quadriplegic, but I started getting very small bits of movement back within the first week or so below where my injury happened. I could start to twitch a couple muscles like I’d start to flex. I remember my very first muscle I could move was my inner thigh consciously. And that was a huge sign because that meant that, okay, there was some signals that my brain was going that was think about your spinal cord injury is like a bruise on your spinal cord, like a beaver dam or something. And all of a sudden, nothing can go through that.
Chris L:
Well, there was some signals going through that. Doctors would tell me, my therapist would tell me, we don’t know if that’s all you’re going to get back, or if more will come. But the bottom line is, you need a lot of time. And over the course of I was in my rehabilitation hospital where I was getting daily physical therapy, occupational therapy, even speech therapy, because I had to learn how to breathe again in a lot of ways. Of course, my lungs are paralyzed. I was getting that every single day. And I was getting movement back. Little bits of movement back and after two months, I could actually move my foot a little bit. I could move some fingers, that was about it. I started realizing that I had potential. But all of a sudden, in spite of a really fantastic insurance plan through my employer. I was working at a communications company at the time, insurance was capped.
Chris L:
Insurance said, “You have been in this rehabilitation hospital for a while.” I was there longer than most. Now, the average stay at a rehabilitation hospital insurance covered in the US is about two weeks. I was there for two months, which was longer than most, but still insurance basically capped. And we were fighting it all along the way. I think my first denial came within a couple of weeks they said that I had plateaued. That’s the key word in that industry. When you plateau, okay your recovery is stopping now, we got to get you home. And then what I found out was a lot of the rehabilitation I was doing was to get me home quicker because they said, “Okay, you need to get fitted for a power wheelchair. You need to make sure your home is adaptive. You need to make sure that your caregivers know how to cath you and feed you and arrange your limbs. That became the care, which is very important, but it stopped becoming necessarily working on recovery.
Warwick F:
Does it almost feel like the insurance is more geared for the insurance company to get you out of hospital and free a bed for somebody else? They wanted to recover, but it does feel like the insurance company’s agenda and your agenda was not totally the same?
Chris L:
A little bit. Yeah, because, I mean, I think insurance companies look at the statistics that I was a C4 spinal cord injury. And after a couple of weeks out of my injury, they say, “Look, this guy he’s got to get home, he can’t be in rehabilitation forever.” The healthcare costs are astronomical. So they move people home very quickly. And that’s really the way it is for a lot of really serious injuries.
Warwick F:
It may be valid and rational from the seat where they sit with actuarial tables and all and data, and you obviously got to make some decision. But from your perspective, I think you were there eight weeks. You hadn’t given up. You were showing signs of improvement, you didn’t want to stop.
Chris L:
That was the irony. The irony was I was slowly getting to the point where I could have used more of all these tools I saw in the therapy gym that I couldn’t use when I first got there because I was nothing but a head on a pillow. I started being able to move some things that okay, now I can maybe participate in more aggressive rehabilitation, but nope, sorry, I had to be discharged. And the option was to come back for outpatient therapy a couple times a week. I think for about a month or go to a nursing home. And at that time we chose a nursing home because I could still get some daily physical therapy, occupational therapy there. That was a very difficult decision because nursing homes didn’t know how to care for quadriplegic. But my parents, my family and friends, I was very fortunate in that regard. They were at my side every day to help me through that was that as I discharged to a nursing home. I was at a nursing home for about another four months.
Warwick F:
And they were willing to help you, work with you, learn what they needed to learn, and it felt like you made more progress over those months in the nursing home. It may not have been ideal, but you made more progress.
Chris L:
I did. I made some more progress because more time had passed, and I was still getting daily therapy. So six months after my injury, I couldn’t move my arms at all, but I actually could actually… I could start to move. I could start to sit up in bed, and I could actually stand and you’re talking about six months after a spinal cord injury. Now six months seems like an awful long time, and it was when you’re rehabbing from that. But in the course of a spinal cord injury after being paralyzed from the neck down after six months being able to actually take a couple steps. Those were huge.
Warwick F:
It must have felt like a miracle. I mean, each step, each finger being able to move it must have felt like you’d won the Super Bowl or something. There was a sense I can’t believe it. I did something else today.
Chris L:
It was and again I absolutely celebrated those wins. But at the same time, you never knew when it was going to stop. I was always like, “Hey, is this it?” I would always also be a little upset because I wasn’t getting more. Because in my mind, I just wanted to start running again. And I wanted to move my arms again and feed myself again. I couldn’t do any of those things.
Warwick F:
And you never know if tomorrow is going to be when you hit that brick wall in which 40 years will go by and you’ll never be able to move anything more than where you are, right?
Chris L:
It’s just a slow, slow process and you need so much aggressive rehabilitation for a long time.
Warwick F:
So how did you move from the nursing home because I think at some point you went to Neuroworx? Talk about what happened after the whole nursing home. You were there for months, making some improvement, but that I guess you felt like there needed to be a change or a change was forced upon you?
Chris L:
Yes. Well, I was actually booted out of the nursing home. I was actually then booted out of the nursing home for insurance, too, for the same reason. At that point, I was still in a wheelchair. But I had heard shortly after I was injured I had heard about this place in Salt Lake City, Utah called Neuroworx through a person I had worked with. And this was a place started by a physician named Dr. Dale Hull and a physical therapist named Jan Black. Dr. Hull had the same sort of injury I did and recognized there was a giant need. He worked with his therapist and they started this small little clinic that was aimed toward helping people after insurance was up and a place where you can go long term. They created Neuroworx. I was hurt in 2010. Neuroworx had already been around for a while. They were still relatively small. But that’s when I got to the point in the nursing home where I said, “Okay, maybe I can actually go across the country to this place because I knew I still need more rehabilitation.” I wasn’t even close to being done yet.
Chris L:
And then we realized, okay, maybe we could do that. So my mother and I, my mother was my caregiver. We flew across the country to Salt Lake City, Utah, and there was a small little apartment that had been donated to Neuroworx at the time. And my mother and I basically lived there in this little apartment, and we went to the Neuroworx every day, Monday through Friday, multiple hours a day for almost two years.
Warwick F:
Did insurance cover that or?
Chris L:
No, that that was the beauty of what Neuroworx was, was that if your insurance is up, and you want to self pay for a physical therapy visit, it usually costs $300 to $400 for an hour.
Warwick F:
Oh, my gosh.
Chris L:
That’s not affordable when you need hours a day for a year.
Warwick F:
No, no.
Chris L:
But Neuroworx would make it more affordable, and then they would fundraise to offset those costs. So my family did do a lot of fundraising to get out there. And we were definitely blessed by at the time I was working for a company called ChaCha, which was started by a man named Scott A. Jones who’s an entrepreneurial voicemail fame that had a lot of startup companies, and a very generous man that actually helped pay for me to get out there. And my family did some fundraising, too. But over the course of a year and a half, we basically self paid out of pocket, but at a very cheap rate. It wasn’t like-
Warwick F:
I mean, the fact… I mean, what would life have been like if there was no Neuroworx? They had both the technology, the training, and it was at least somewhat affordable. Your life would have been radically different, right?
Chris L:
It absolutely would have changed my life. Well, first thing it wasn’t the more rehabilitation that cured my spinal cord injury. But it was the fact that it turned out there was less damage to my spinal cord. But also it still took that access for a long time, and the care I received there. The first time I walked into Neuroworx at the time was the first time I’d ever seen this body weight support treadmill system and electrical stimulation machines, they had a pool therapy. They had these different resources that wasn’t available in a lot of other clinics because they realize that they’re expensive. Sometimes it takes multiple clinicians to use them properly, which is more money for the hospital systems. And to benefit, you need to be doing them for a long time. And when insurance only covers a certain amount of time, they say, “Okay, you’re not going to be able to have time to do this, let’s not even offer it.” And the care becomes what insurance will allow rather than what the patient needs.
Chris L:
Neuroworx saw this, I saw this and over the course of two years, every single day, hours a day relearning to walk, relearning to move my hands. Over the course of that time, I slowly but surely got to where I am now. I’m ambulatory now. I can walk. I still have some paralysis on my left side. But after two years in the spring of 2012, I actually drove myself all the way back home from Salt Lake City to Indianapolis, and I had sort of “beat” paralysis in a way. I had regained bowel and bladder function. I was walking again. If you would have told me that two years ago when the whole dream was, am I ever going to move again? And all of a sudden here I was walking again, it was very surreal. It took place over the course of two years, but it was still very surreal. We leaving Salt Lake City after two years.
Warwick F:
So, that experience really changed your life. It’s patient focus, they have the technology, the training. I mean, your sense of hope, which I mean, somehow through this whole journey even in those darkest days it felt like we unfortunately talk about this, you can wallow and say, “I’m angry, I’m bitter. And I’m just going to sit here for the next 40, 50 years.” Whether you’re paralyzed or emotionally paralyzed, or just feeling down about yourself, maybe you’re a victim of abuse. There’s a lot of reasons objectively it could be valid to wallow, but you never were like that. You just kept pushing and I’m guessing once you’re in Neuroworx your sense of optimism and hope and say, “This stuff is really working. I’ve got the training. I’ve got the support. I’m going to get some level of movement back, some level of my life back.”
Warwick F:
So, I want to talk a bit about NeuroHope. Not everybody has this sense of determination and hope. Where did that come from? I mean, is it family, or what? Maybe within you? I mean, over all these years, you kept pushing and trying, you never gave up. Where did that come from?
Chris L:
That’s a hard question to answer, I guess. I mean, I think what I experienced there, what I experienced just through my process, through the healthcare system, and then through how fortunate I was to actually beat paralysis when so many others can’t. Sometimes it’s because their injury is more severe, sometimes it’s because they may not have the access. It just really inspired me so much, and my family, too. My whole family involved. These injuries affect entire families. And collectively it just came to the point where when your life’s at stake is the way I felt, I’m going to do anything I possibly can to try to get it back. And that’s what I would constantly be reminding myself of, even in the early days, when I was lay at night focusing on some movement. I was like, “Okay, I’m just going to keep moving this foot, I’m going to keep moving this foot, I’m going to try to keep moving this arm, moving this arm.” I became borderline obsessed with the physiology of the injury and my chances of recovery.
Warwick F:
I almost wonder as I’m listening to you, your mindset, your whole life has been be active, go for it, don’t sit still. Maybe that served you well, in some ways, because you weren’t somebody to sit there and do nothing. So if you’re in rehab, you’re going to be going for it. You’re going to be as active as you can. Does that make sense? You have this never sit still mindset, and maybe in some ways that served you. I’m not going to just sit here. I’m going to twitch a muscle as much as I can and twitch the next muscle and may not be much, but I don’t know, I wonder whether your inherent active mindset helped you out there in some ways?
Chris L:
I think it certainly did. And we see the same thing with a lot of clients and patients that come that I rehab with. I mean, you really have to. It’s like you can’t just… It’s not up to the therapists. You have to have it in yourself as well to push yourself.
Warwick F:
You’ve got to make a decision that I’m not going to let this beat me. I’m going to do my level best to recover. I’m not going to be angry at myself. You obviously had to… It sounds a bit ridiculous, but you had to forgive yourself, even though objectively people say, “What’s there to forgive? He was young. People do that all the time.” But still, you were clearly angry at yourself, which objectively doesn’t feel that valid. But you had to do that. Because if you were… That bitterness could have held you back in your recovery. So you had to let go of the bitterness, I’m guessing or angry at yourself?
Chris L:
Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. I mean, I’m still mad at myself sometimes.
Warwick F:
There you go.
Chris L:
But I see what you’re saying, yeah. There were times where I’d be mad at myself and times where I said, “Okay, I got to swallow hard, and…
Warwick F:
You know what they say, what holds you back doesn’t serve you. So, it doesn’t serve you.
Gary S:
I can sense we’re going to shift gears and go into the creation of NeuroHope. But as we do that, as an on ramp, Chris, I want to refer to a little snippet of conversation we had before we pressed record on this conversation when you were talking about your crucibles. And you mentioned obviously your accident was a main crucible, the main crucible, but a secondary one was okay, now, what do I do with my life? And what we’ve seen, and I think this is going to bear out as you tell the story of NeuroHope we see this happen a lot. It happened for Warwick. The idea that your crucible can give birth to your life of significance can give birth to what you do out of that crucible.
Gary S:
Warwick goes through this failure that consumes a continent in that it’s all over Australia. And what does he do? He creates a philosophical and practical consultancy that helps people overcome failure and setback. You not only dealt with paralysis, but dealt with some issues around that like insurance, and how do you pay for it? And how do you do that? It seems to me it’s probably fair to say that out of your crucible, as you figure what do I do next, your life of significance, your vision for what was next came in large part because of that crucible, is that fair?
Chris L:
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, recovering from paralysis and what am I going to do as a quadriplegic was one life changing moment. But even early on, I never in a million years would have thought I would have created a clinic to help people. I was just thinking about will I ever walk again, if I get my life back in that regard. But when I came back home, two years after my injury triumphantly defeating paralysis. It’s like, okay, well, now what? I didn’t have a job anymore. I didn’t have… I was living with my sister. And I was still, most people would consider me disabled even now. So I can walk, I walk with a severe limp. I still don’t have use of my left arm. I’m very weak. I can only lift maybe 10 pounds. I still have a lot of significance for my injury. So, I still am a disabled person. And you never think that that’s ever going to happen to you.
Chris L:
So now I here I was back home again. Well, it’s like, “Okay, my life for two years was overcoming paralysis.” Well, now all of a sudden, it’s like I was home again, it’s like, okay, things are different. Now what? And that’s when I think, I guess the second crucible happened because I really… My whole family and I… Again, I mention my family. It really was a family affair. We just said let’s try to do what we experienced in Neuroworx. Why is there not a place like this in our community? Indianapolis is a big city with great healthcare providers. But there’s a very real void in care, and can we do something to address it. And that’s sort of where I made a big sacrifice. I was 30 years old, and I ended up living with my sister at a time when a lot of people when they’re 30, are starting to launch a career and have a family and do all those things.
Chris L:
I started a non-for-profit, not really knowing what we were going to do at first. It was going to like, let’s try to raise funds for maybe the local rehabilitation hospital. But I drew no salary, I live rent free with my sister, and that’s what I did. I had a part time job with a company that gave me a little bit of income. But over the course of the next couple years, we created a nonprofit, and then really tried to say, “Okay, is this possible?” Can we actually create some sort of a clinic? And the University of Indianapolis was the first group that really saw the vision I think early on. I thought maybe we could partner with them in some way. And then the major turning point was I met a physical therapist by the name of Nora Foster, who had come from the spinal cord world at a rehabilitation hospital. I met her, and she, from her perspective, from a clinician’s perspective, said, “Yeah, there’s a big void in here. We got to create something.”
Chris L:
And then when I met her, and we started launching, I’d already created the nonprofit. I’d already raised the same significant amount of money, and I didn’t know what we were going to do with it. That’s when we realized, okay, let’s do this on our own. We started in a very small, tiny room that was given to us rent free from the University of Indianapolis. We had nothing but a therapy mat, and Nora saw some of her first patients that had been discharged. And at that point we didn’t know we’re going to charge very affordable rates, and that was the point, the continuum of care for people. We had no spinal cord injury equipment, we needed some. I tell the story where I got my car, and I drove all the way to headquarters of a place called New Step where they make recumbent stepping machines for people with disabilities.
Chris L:
I kind of told the story and a piece to them and got a New Step donated to us. And then I drove to Minnesota to try to get the standing frame for people paralysis to get donate to us, and that worked as well. So then all of a sudden we had a couple two pieces of a rehab center in this little tiny room, and this was back in 2015. We started the reality of a center, some semblance of a little bit of a center began.
Warwick F:
To me, it’s just incredible because as you’re driving back from Utah, you could have said, “Okay, I’m still disabled, but I’m a lot more functional. Maybe I could do TV reporting, print journalism.” Certainly, I would have thought you might be able to do or some kind of communications field. I can go back to maybe not my total old life, but parts of it. You could have gone that track, some kind of communications. But maybe it’s obvious, I don’t know, but what led you to say, “Okay, that was my old life. But I don’t know that I want to go back to it. I want to use what I’ve been through to help others.” I mean, maybe it sounds obvious to people in hindsight, but life is never that obvious. Why did you choose this track rather than some other track?
Chris L:
It’s a good question. I started getting involved in some volunteer work when I was in my early 20s. And one of them was in your area of the world, in Australia. I still consider one of the best experiences of my life. Surely, and I’ll be pretty honest.
Warwick F:
It’s all good.
Chris L:
So, shortly after I graduated college, I kind of going back to what I said earlier, I was always on the go. I always wanted to do things and then see, experience things in life. I was with a group of students, total strangers, but we lived basically in the bush in New South Wales near a town called Bermagui. And there was this wildlife center. It was the very beginning of this conservation camp. So we basically lived with no power, no running water, but we were starting to build this student conservation camp, which now… This was in 2004, years later it’s been created. But that was one of the first experiences that I had really started to do something that was bigger than myself, and been involved in something for a community and doing something that just felt more meaningful.
Chris L:
And then a year after that, I was living in Portland, Maine. I was working as a lobster fisherman in Portland, Maine and Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. And it was sort of the same thing where I actually enrolled a bunch of classes with the American Red Cross, and I actually went down to New Orleans in the middle of after Hurricane Katrina for a month and helped with some water distribution routes there. It became kind of… I don’t know… It was something where I think maybe back then the years before my injury, I always sort of started realizing doing something more meaningful, and then fast forward to my injury and what I went through, then all of a sudden, it was a cause that hit me personally, and I just had the whole, to use another journalism term, the fire in the belly to do something.
Chris L:
Then all of a sudden, and my family was the same way. My sister had run nonprofits before in the past. She remains a big part of NeuroHope, and then together we just said, “We have to do this. We have to do this for the community.” And that’s, so I think, that’s always sort of been in me too, a little bit to do something bigger than myself and now all of a sudden this gave me a vehicle to try to do that. But if I had great backing and support, and sacrificing initiative to do it all.
Warwick F:
One of the things we find in Crucible Leadership a lot and in my own life I find this, the crucibles you go through, they’re never fun what you went through was excruciating, physically, emotionally, mentally, soul destroying, something that could have been. But yet, somehow, when you use what you’ve been through to help others, it doesn’t make it all better but it gives… I know that you’ve obviously heard this a million times pain for a purpose. The pain never goes away. You’ve got life altering injuries, which will never totally go away. But yet, when you make meaning out of it somehow in some small way it makes life a little bit easier, a little bit purposed. Does that make any kind of sense? This is not an original thought, but by making meaning of what you went through, was that also a step in your at least emotional, spiritual recovery, if you will?
Chris L:
Yes. It gives you perspective on life that you wouldn’t have… That I wouldn’t have ever had, had I not gone through what I went through. Whether that’s appreciation for things. I was always appreciative. I don’t want to make it sound like I wasn’t, but it’s one of those things where it’s like you put struggles into perspective. You put things that have value in life into perspective. Whatever your crucible is kind of what you mentioned earlier, Gary, whether it’s a divorce that may shake you to your core, or whether it’s the death of someone, a loved one that may shake you to your core, whether it’s losing your business. You go through those trials in life. And when you come out on the other side, you never would have had that perspective of how your life can move forward if it never would have happened.
Gary S:
That sound you just heard listeners is the captain turning down the fasten seatbelt sign indicating it’s getting close to the time to land the plane. Before we do that, however, I would be remiss, Chris, if I did not give you the opportunity to let listeners know how they can find out more about you and about NeuroHope.
Chris L:
Yes, so NeuroHope, you can google us, NeuroHope, N-E-U-R-O NeuroHope. Plenty will come up but our website is neurohopewellness.org, and we’re also on Instagram at NeuroHope. We have a lot of inspiring patient stories there. I had talked about how in the beginning we were a small clinic but now I have a staff of nine and we’re a hybrid. We’re a mixture where we do physical therapy, we also do wellness. And we have an amazing group of staff and we’re helping a lot of people, not only in the rehabilitation part, but in wellness and fitness for people that are recovering from injuries and that live with paralysis.
Gary S:
Warwick, I’ll let you get the last question. But I want to ask one question off of Chris’s form that he gave us because it’s interesting, and I can tell you’re an old journalist, Chris, because there’s a question that we have on here. If we could only ask you what question, what would you want it to be? And you had a great question here. I’d love to hear it, and I’m sure our listeners would love to hear the answer. What are you most grateful for in the journey that we’ve just talked about?
Chris L:
I actually just answered it.
Gary S:
Fantastic.
Chris L:
Perspective. It was the perspective that my life and injury has made me aware of because I wouldn’t have had it before. Like I said, I still mourn parts of my own life. I wish I could play the drums again. I wish I could get on some water skis and snow skis again. I wish I could run again and play basketball again. I can’t do any of those things. But the perspective on life that I have now prior to my injury is something that I never would have had if I didn’t go through what I’ve been through.
Warwick F:
Wow. Well, Chris, thank you so much for being here. Your story is inspiring. I mean, you’ve got the inspiration that others who have been injured physically that never giving up. You never know where your plateau is. It could be where people think it is, or it could be beyond. Until you try you never know. So there’s the whole physical side. But there’s the emotional and spiritual comeback of realizing your life from a career perspective, or in general wasn’t over. You used your pain to help others get the benefit of what you went through.
Warwick F:
I think what listeners hopefully appreciate is pretty sure that your life, despite the physical challenges has joy in it when you get to work with patients and you get to see maybe that one twitch of a finger, or a thigh muscle, and they have hope. And they’re getting better day by day. That’s got to fill you with, I’m making a difference in people’s lives. I’m giving them opportunities they might not have had, otherwise. And so, when you spend your life for a cause you believe in, in service of others. I mean, that does add joy to your life. I mean, is that a fair summary of how you feel and your experience with NeuroHope and what you do now?
Chris L:
Yes, I see a lot of people that have had journeys similar to mine that our team works with every day. And our team is unbelievable. The therapist and the trainers we have, you watch how they work with patients day in and day out and how much they care, and how much they impact our patients’ lives. It’s remarkable. It’s definitely one of those things sometimes where you sit back and realize what NeuroHope has grown thanks to the staff, and the group that we’ve gone around the lives, they’ve changed is something that is pretty remarkable.
Gary S:
And also remarkable is the perfect landing of the plane that that comment brought us to, Chris. Thank you for that. Before we go though listener, there are three I think takeaways from today’s conversation with Chris Leeuw that I think we can all think about as we move on. Number one, engage your tribe. Chris hadn’t even given the details of his own life changing crucible in this discussion before he mentioned what a help his family has always been to him pre-crucible and post-crucible and he talked about it several times throughout this discussion. When setbacks and failures strike lean into those close to you, friends and family for comfort, pep talks, logistical and motivational assistance. It worked for Warwick in his case, it worked for Chris in his story that he just told, and pretty much every guest we’ve had on the show.
Gary S:
The second point and I’m going to… I’ve written this second point out with each word has a period after it so I slow it down when I say it because Chris made this point in his sheet that he gave to us. He also made it in our conversation. And that point is this. Do not let your crucible define you. There’s a season to dwell on your setback or failure, for sure. But don’t let it become nuclear winter. Don’t let it go on forever and be bleak forever. As Chris counsels, find the fortitude to move on, and you will. Give yourself time to heal and mourn if you need it. But also be sure to find some reasons to hope because we can guarantee you’re going to need that hope to move on beyond your crucible.
Gary S:
And the third point would be this, your vision for a life of significance after a crucible could very well be grown out of your crucible itself. From the perspective, as Chris pointed out that his crucible gave him came this life of significance of NeuroHope. We’ve seen this happen over and over again in the guests that we’ve talked to. In Warwick’s own story, we’ve seen that happen. The same thing happened to Chris. He worked hard to come back from paralysis. And now he advocates to help others come back from paralysis and raise money to help them do so. That is the very definition of a life of significance.
Gary S:
And speaking of a life of significance listeners, thank you for spending time with us. And we would ask that you remember that we understand as you understand that your crucible experiences are difficult, they are painful, they are traumatic. They can as we say, and as Chris says, change the trajectory of your lives. But here is the fantastic news, they are not the end of your story. They were not the end of Chris Leeuw’s story. They’re not the end of Warwick Fairfax’s story. They’re not the end of your story. They can be if you learn the lessons of them, if you internalize the perspective of them, they can be not the end of your story, but the beginning of a new chapter in your story that leads to the most rewarding conclusion you can possibly imagine. And that is a life of significance.
Your soul is the you that you don’t have to think about, where your essence, your truest self, lives. But how do you discover what your soul reveals about you? More important, how can drawing on the insights you find there help you bounce back from a crucible and lead a life of significance? Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax and cohost Gary Schneeberger take a deep dive into those questions, offering up 7 ways to live with your soul top of mind. The beliefs, values and passions you find there, Warwick says, will allow you to begin living your legacy today.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. If you’re doing something that’s not in line with your dreams, aspirations, skills, your personality, whether it’s personally and professional, what tends to happen is, the more you ignore who you truly are in your soul that leads you into the desert. There are these words that people have used, like the land of smoldering discontent. Day by day, you die. Your inner self dies and your passions, and you become just this almost like this robot, this hollow man, hollow woman of just nothing. There are people that they don’t feel joy or pain. They’re just numb. They’re just numb to life.
Gary S:
Wow! That sounds pretty depressing. Doesn’t it? But don’t worry. This week’s episode is all about how you can avoid what Warwick just described. It’s a roadmap for how you can, as he puts it, begin living your legacy today and the joy and fulfillment you’ll find when you do. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. Pull up a chair or listen wherever it is you may be multitasking as we discuss how to live in a way that’s true to the real you, the inner you that is aligned with your essence, your soul.
Gary S:
We cover seven practical steps in all, each one, a stone to lay in the road that will carry you to your life of significance.
Gary S:
Listener, we have a great show today. We always know it’s going to be a great show when we’re not exactly sure what we’re going to call it. Whatever name was on this podcast before you clicked play, we’ve thought of after we’ve recorded it, because we don’t know exactly what to call it yet. A working title at some point was soul work, but Warwick explain to folks what it is that we’re going to be traversing today, the subjects that we’re going to be talking about.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Soul is an interesting word. I think we often talk on Beyond the Crucible, and indeed, as part of Crucible Leadership as, how do you live a life of significance? We talk about, well, it starts with how you’re designed and wired, and your skills, abilities, and talents, and then lining them up with your fundamental beliefs and values, finding a vision that you’re off the charts passionate about, getting a team together and living a life of significance. That’s all good and that’s all true, but one of the things I think we’ve come up against in chatting to guests and in reflection is there’s something maybe beyond just wiring and design.
Warwick F:
It’s our inner essence, our soul, and what is that? I mean, in a sense, philosophers and religions and spiritual folks have been talking about the word soul for probably thousands of years. It’s not a new topic. The sense of a soul is it makes you, you. Every human being that’s ever lived has a unique soul. It’s a combination of wiring, but more than that, personality, perspective, passions, characteristics, quirks. It’s what makes you as a conscious human being. Human beings have consciousness. So, what makes you, you?
Warwick F:
For want of a better word, and as I said, theologians and philosophers have been talking about it for thousands of years, it’s your soul, it’s who you are. We wanted to chat about what is soul and how do you get more in touch with it? And how do you live your life more in touch with your soul? If a soul is who you are, shouldn’t you be paying attention to it and living in light of it?
Gary S:
Right. Two points based on what you just said. We were talking about what to cover during the show here, and something popped in my head that I said that your soul is the you that you don’t have to think hard about. It’s the you that is just you. It just kind of comes out, and to make your point about the thousands of years that talk of soul has been waged, I found a quote that goes back to Aristotle, who said this, “The soul is the first activation of the potentiality for life that is in organic, physical, or natural bodies.”
Gary S:
Back in Aristotle’s time, back when people only had one name a piece, they were talking about the importance of soul as it pertains to how you live your life.
Warwick F:
Yeah, and that’s true. I mean, it’s funny in the Christian tradition and others, you talk about the body may die, but the soul doesn’t. The sense of the soul being eternal, which is a hard thing to get your head around, that’s not an uncommon thought within religious and spiritual tradition. This concept of eternity and soul, it’s a fascinating topic. It’s not easy to understand, to be honest, but it’s an important one of understanding, what is a soul and what does that mean? Do I know what mine is, and how do I live in light of who I truly am? While it may be difficult, I don’t think these are questions you want to ignore.
Gary S:
Right. It’s a critical aspect of Crucible Leadership, because when we describe crucibles, there’s a lot of words you can use for a crucible experience. It was devastating, it was life-changing, it was soul-crushing, is one of the things people use to describe a truly traumatic crucible. The idea, in the context of Crucible Leadership, this conversation, how do you get in touch with your soul? How do you sort of elucidate what’s in there? Your soul is that thing that gets crushed sometimes, that gets wounded, that gets battered when you go through a crucible experience. That’s fair, isn’t it?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, soul-crushing is a good word. If it’s soul-crushing, you must have something to be crushed. What is that thing that’s getting crushed? When you say to somebody, boy, was that soul-crushing. He said, I’ll absolutely, but why? Why was it soul-crushing? What was it that got crushed? And how do you maybe stop it getting uncrushed or revamped, redeemed, if you will? Yeah, it’s an important question. I think most people, whether they’re religious or not, have a sense that they have a soul. They have an inner essence that’s beyond just wiring and gifts.
Warwick F:
It’s more than that. It’s deeper than that. It matters hugely. People intuitively have a sense that they have one and that it matters, even if they don’t fully understand it, because if philosophers and religions grapple with this subject, it can’t be easy.
Gary S:
Right. Now, although I often say I’m a word guy, so I’m definitely not a scientist, but I did, Warwick, a little bit of an archeological dig to find out, when’s the first time that this idea of doing soul work came up in Beyond the Crucible? I found in the March 10th podcast with Bryan Price. I remember the moment. I had to look up the date, but I remember kind of the moment and the discussion. You and Bryan Price, who’s a leadership … He runs something called the Buccino Leadership Institute at Seton Hall University.
Gary S:
One of the things he does is he has a crucible class with his students where they talk about their crucible experiences. But as that conversation was wrapping up, Bryan had talked a little bit about what he calls, what others call imposter syndrome. This idea that I don’t deserve the things that have happened to me. I’m an imposter. I’m living falsely in some way. I have a transcript from that end of that conversation, and this is what you said to Bryan Price when we were talking with him. “None of us are perfect. Getting over the whole imposter syndrome, I mean, that’s really important. It’s almost, I’d say soul work. To be really effective leaders, you’ve got start at the root.”
Gary S:
“That’s often at the soul level. You’ve got a good foundation at a soul self-image level, you’re going to be so much more effective and compassionate. You have a bunch of weeds or some issues at a soul level, you’ll find it very difficult to care for other people. So, you’re really dealing with what I’d call soul work.” That was the first time I remember you talking about the need to care for the soul. One of the things that we talked about is that you can’t really, because the soul is your essence, you can’t really sort of shape your soul or change your soul, but you can discover it. You can peel back layers of the onion to find out what’s in there, and then how do you manage those things that you find there?
Warwick F:
Yeah, I think that’s true. I mean, just understanding that you have one is important. I think you can nurture it and help it flourish. On the other hand, you can ignore that. Sometimes parents, maybe their kids went on a path that wasn’t helpful, whether it’s drugs or getting involved with people that lead them into a life of crime. You’ll hear parents say, Johnny or Mary, they’re a good person. They’ve just been around the wrong people and they’ve gone down the wrong path, but I think often the case, that’s often the case, of what is that soul? I think sometimes, and we’ll get into this, sometimes we ignore who we are and we live somebody else’s life or somebody else’s path and that direction lies misery.
Gary S:
Right. That’s part of your story. I mean, that’s a part of your story, the idea that as the fifth generation, heir to the family media dynasty, that’s what you were designed for by family fiat or however that worked, that was your role, and it didn’t take into consideration your talents, passions, things that you wanted to do, let alone, did you have the soul? Was your soul one to be a media tycoon? That was a question that no one ever asked and no one ever thought to ask, right?
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, that’s true. I mean wiring and soul, it’s sort of interweaved. I’m basically a reflective advisor, probably more on the shy, introverted end of the spectrum, and to be this upfront leader where I’m having to make a hundred decisions before breakfast, the way that your average media tycoon does, and you’re responsible for thousands of people, I mean, that just wasn’t me, but yet, because growing up at 150-year old family media business and having dearly loved my parents and my father, I didn’t want to let them down, or let my dad down and ancestors. I found that I was trapped.
Warwick F:
I mean, I’ve mentioned on another podcast recently, it sounds like a strange analogy, but it’s almost like the Royal family. It’d be like asking Prince William, who is the heir apparent after his dad, Prince Charles, has he ever thought about doing something else? He would say, “Well, no,” because if he did, his father and grandmother would be devastated. So, the issue of, what does your soul want is irrelevant. Yeah, I mean, it never seemed to be an option, and the challenge is, when you’re living somebody else’s life, that can, maybe it’s not soul crushing, it erodes the soul. It starts getting eaten away. It’s almost like acid.
Warwick F:
It’s just sort of it erodes it. When you’re not helping your soul flourish, watering it, nurturing it, and letting weeds grow, it’s really almost a guaranteed path to misery. Happiness and joy and fulfillment won’t happen.
Gary S:
Right. The reason behind this podcast is that we’re about to turn a corner. We’ve already, if this were a court of law, we’ve entered into evidence, the fact that we have souls, and that living in line with those souls is important. I’ll finish this aspect of the discussion before we turn into seven ways to stay true to yourself, seven ways to live within the parameters, live out of your soul. Here’s a quote that summarizes a little bit of what you were just saying by the author, Daniel Defoe, wrote this. “The soul is placed in the body like a rough diamond, and must be polished or the luster of it will never appear.” What we’re going to talk about, these seven items that you’ve identified that are in a blog of yours, that if not already available at crucibleleadership.com, will soon be available at crucibleleadership.com, is basically things you can do to polish the diamond that is your soul, to make sure that that the luster of that essence is not lost.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, I think that’s true. Really, the first step is recognizing that you have a soul, that all humans have a soul, as we’ve been talking about, and in essence, that makes them different than any other human being. You need to ask the questions of, why was I put on this earth? What gives my life meaning? What are my passions? I mean, what is life about, and in particular, for me? And realize that you have a God given soul, at least from my perspective, and you have every right to live in line with it.
Warwick F:
One of the things that why this is so important, because a lot of people will say, oh, soul I don’t really get it. Who cares? I just want to get a job.
Gary S:
It sounds all oogity boogity.
Warwick F:
It’s all ethereal, and who cares? Let’s get a good job and do something that at least I don’t hate and enjoy the weekend and I just keep going, which is obviously, in the world of Crucible Leadership and life of significance, so we think life should be focused on others and for a higher purpose, but really at a soul level, it matters because if you’re doing something that’s not in line with your dreams, aspirations, skills, your personality, whether it’s personally and professional, what tends to happen is, the more you ignore who you truly are in your soul that leads you into the desert.
Warwick F:
There are these words that people have used, like the land of smoldering discontent, day by day you die, your inner self dies, and your passions, and you become just this, almost like this robot, this hollow man, hollow woman of just nothing. There are people that they don’t feel joy or pain. They’re just numb. They’re just numb to life. You don’t want to be this numb automaton that’s like, it’s given up and his soul has been crushed in this eternal purgatory of frustration. That’s what can happen if you ignore your soul and don’t live in light of it and listen to everybody else. You don’t want to be that person. That’s a land of pain, and you don’t want to be that person.
Gary S:
That is great advice for the listener and falls in line with another quote that I have that I found from, I don’t know why this is sort of the literary episode of Beyond the Crucible, but this is from the poet, Walt Whitman, who said exactly what you’re talking about. He said it this way, “Re-examine all that you have been told. Dismiss that which insults your soul.” Dismiss that which just does not feel right, does not feel like that’s what you’re supposed to do. Again, the reason we’re having this discussion on Beyond the Crucible for Crucible Leadership is because what you were just describing about living life as an automaton, that’s the antithesis of where crucible leadership aims to aim people, which is to a life of significance.
Gary S:
A life on purpose dedicated to serving others, where there’s joy and there’s happiness and there’s meaning, and to live outside or contrary to your soul is the opposite of that. It’s those things that Whitman says, insult your soul. Those are things we should dismiss from our soul.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I may have got it wrong. It might be Thoreau, but I think somebody like that said, that people live lives of quiet desperation. They’re not yelling and screaming or crying, but it’s just, we all have known them. There’s just this deep inner sadness, and it gets worse as the decades go by and you feel sorry for them. Boy, they just seem, they don’t necessarily complain but they just seem unhappy at such a deep spiritual level. Maybe it comes out in sarcasm, maybe they’re negative, maybe they’re pessimist, but it’s just, there are always reasons. Maybe that drives them to substance abuse.
Warwick F:
I mean, I’m no expert, but people who get into substance abuse, there’s always a reason, and it’s probably a soul-crushing reason. These things matter. Anyway, I think we’ve probably outlined if you have a soul, why it matters.
Gary S:
Right. Lest you think listener that this is going to be a depressing, if you found that to be sort of a downer, we’re not trying to be a downer. The idea is to sort of set the stage for why is soul so important, and what Warwick’s talking about. That’s why this discussion is important, not just in general, but in the concept or in the construct of Crucible Leadership. This is an important conversation to have. Now we’re going to turn the corner and to help you understand ways to discover things that do not insult your soul. The first one of those is what, Warwick?
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, we’ve been talking about recognize you have a soul and we all have them. Hopefully listeners, you understand this now of, we have one and why it’s important. I think really, after you recognize that you have one, the next step is really to examine your fundamental beliefs. We live in a fast-paced world, technology, people are climbing the corporate ladder, and we typically, we don’t take time to think, who am I? What do I believe? What does it matter what I believe? Well, if you don’t know what you believe, how in the world can you figure out what your soul is and live in light of it? I mean, to make this practical, you can say, okay, great, I have a soul, but I have no idea what that is, and what do I do with it?
Warwick F:
The first step is, we all have beliefs. Now, it could be a religious tradition. It could be spiritual or philosophical. You’ve got to do some work, and it matters. What you believe matters. It’s not about what other people believe or what other people think you should believe. That’s not the relevant thing is, every human being, because we have consciousness, we have beliefs. I think pretty much everybody has strong convictions, a set of strong convictions.
Warwick F:
Well, figure out what those beliefs are. Now, maybe you were raised in a religious tradition and you don’t buy into all of it. You may buy into some of it. Maybe you don’t go to church every Sunday or synagogue or mosque, or whatever it happens to be your religious or spiritual tradition. But there may be parts that you like. For instance, in the Christian tradition, maybe you like this whole idea of servant leadership and the golden rule, do unto others as you’d have them do onto you. You might say, you know what? That part of the Christian tradition, well, I buy it, I like that.
Warwick F:
Well, examine the parts of your religious, spiritual or philosophical traditions, and ideally write them down, think about it. What are those things that I feel like at the core of what I believe as me as a human being? That’s the first key step. Know what you believe and honor that treasure that. I mean, let’s assuming you don’t believe in something you think is … Hurt everybody or self-centered. I’m an idealist. Most of us, if you ask people their fundamental beliefs, it’s not typically rip people off, cheat, steal, kill.
Warwick F:
I mean, if you’re a psychopath, okay, but let’s assume that you’re a vaguely sane person, I honestly believe that people have fundamental beliefs that should be honored and treasured, almost without exception. At least for sane, functional human beings, which I think is most of us, I think that’s true.
Gary S:
Those beliefs are, I mean, if … Let’s use a metaphor, if your soul’s a plant, it’s in a planter, your beliefs are one of the seeds that is dropped in there. Your soul grows from those beliefs, and identifying what those beliefs are, really taking the time to think about them helps you understand your soul better, helps you live out of your soul better. Again, it’s not like you can adopt new beliefs that will change your soul. You can adopt new beliefs all the time, but you can see the beliefs that are embedded in your soul and live within the parameters of those. That leads to a life that’s far more joyous than the opposite, what Whitman was talking about.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I think one way of looking at it is, if you asked, hey, just met John on Mary, tell me about them. Who are they? That’s a common question. Well, this will be a little bit more direct or curious, if you said, so, tell me, what is it that they believe? I don’t mean just so much religion, but in terms of their fundamental beliefs, who would you say they are? Well, if you were told over the next five, 10 minutes, this is fundamentally what they believe, and you would be a fair ways along the path to understanding who they were as a person.
Warwick F:
It wouldn’t fill in everything, but it would fill in some core elements of who they were when you start asking that question. Think of it that way. If that’s true, then we should know what we believe. That’s really the next key point, I’d say.
Gary S:
Yeah, and then, hand in glove with that, beliefs. I mean, we say that, if you did a search on the Crucible Leadership website for these two words being together, beliefs and values come together a lot. Then the third one would be the third point to make sure that you’re living in line with your soul, is it involves your values. Explain that a little bit.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. You’re right, Gary. We talk a lot about beliefs and values, and it’s funnily enough in the book that I have written, Crucible Leadership, which comes out in October this year.
Gary S:
Look at you, bravo. Way to go, October 19th, Crucible Leadership.
Warwick F:
There you go. It’s funny, I have a couple chapters that track exactly these two points. I have a chapter called faith, which is really … I’m a very open about my own Christian faith, but I talk about your leadership needs to be anchored in some fundamental belief system. It could be a religious, spiritual, philosophical tradition, but then I talk about how those beliefs work themselves out in your life, is the next chapter, which really talks about character. That’s a similar way of talking about values, which is, what are your fundamental values? Which is sort of like, how do you live your life, is what values are about.
Warwick F:
Like I mentioned in the blog, two of my highest values are integrity and humility. For me, that comes out of my Christian faith. Those are two of the early disciples, Jesus highest values. There’s a link between my beliefs and values, but it could be different for others. It could be kindness, generosity, compassion. I mean, those are all, I would argue biblical values as well, but your values is part of the outworking of your beliefs in your life. Understanding your beliefs is important, but understanding your values, that paints some more brush strokes on your painting of understanding what your soul really is. The two do work together.
Gary S:
Yeah. And I want to talk to listeners right now who are like, well, okay, that sounds great, but well, how do I know what my values are? I mean, how do I figure that out? I want to share just a little bit, and we haven’t talked about this before because I wanted to surprise you with it. But I did an exercise probably a month ago with this thing. If you’re on YouTube, I’ll show it, but I’ll say it if you’re not. There’s this little deck, it’s called the One Core Values thing, which is done by a book called The One Thing Core Values, but they’ve worked with a company called The Best-Self Thing. All this deck is, is about 200 cards with words and phrases written on them and what your values can be, making a difference, wealth, wholeheartedness, wonder, resourcefulness, responsibility, self-expression.
Gary S:
They list all of these values across a spectrum. The idea behind how this works is you go through the deck of all these words and the ones that resonate with you, put them in a good pile. The ones that don’t, put them in the discard pile. If you have more than eight or nine or 10, whittle them down. The idea behind doing this is to continue to revisit those words until you identify the three words that are the three most fundamental core values that you have.
Gary S:
I went through this exercise and I actually created a little bit of art for my house with my three. My three are hope, grace, and legacy. Those are the three governing values of my life. Now, you don’t have to go out and necessarily listener and spend money on this particular box, but you can consider words, consider values, consider things, and really ask yourself the question, is that important to me? Discard those ideas that aren’t important to you and lean into the ones that are, and you can whittle down through … There’s a lot of values in the world. There’s a lot of people with a lot of different values, and there’s a wide swath of differences between them.
Gary S:
Take some time, do as Warwick said, back on March 10th, the soul work to discover, what are your most deeply held values? It’s not necessarily going to be something you can get to in a minute and a half if you just do some thinking that … A red light. You may have to dig in a little bit, and I’m telling you, from my perspective, learning that hope, grace, and legacy are the three values that govern my life has already, in a month, been revolutionary for me as I move forward.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, Gary, that is an excellent suggestion. We might put that in the show notes. If you Google core values, and because I’ve done a lot of executive coaching, I’ve done this from time to time, you can find a number of different books, a number of different lists on the internet of core values. What they do is what that One Core Value concept that Gary mentioned, is they’ll start with maybe a hundred and they’ll say, get your top 20, or top 30, top 20, top 10. Then they’ll say, get your top three, probably no more than three to five.
Warwick F:
As you whittle them down, I think pretty much everybody, certainly the vast majority, you know when you’ve found the right one, you just know this is me. I look at it. This is who I am, I believe passionately. I think what you mentioned, grace, hope and legacy, you look at those words, and you go, that’s who Gary is, so at least, that’s certainly part of how you would describe Gary, right, because of those three words.
Gary S:
Right. What’s interesting about it is that I wouldn’t have necessarily picked these three words if I was just grabbing … If someone asked me, before I did the exercise, what are three words? I would have picked some … I’d probably gone easy. I’d have picked faith or things like that. Going through the exercise of however you do it can help because you’ll discover, not only what feels right to your soul, what is born there, but you may surprise yourself at what’s in there when you go through those words and how you react to them, just as you described Warwick, how you react to those words when you see them, you’ll know, and it may surprise you. That’s a good kind of surprise to have because it can help you moving forward.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. The homework assignment for this aspect, it’s clear whether it’s the One Core Values, which we can put on the show notes, or you can Google values lists. There’s several of them. Find a list and do the exercise of 20, 10, and ideally there’s three or five. Several people do this. They all tell you do the same method. Start with a big list and whittle them down to the few and you’ll know when it’s there. That’s absolutely mission possible. Gary did it. We can all do it. Right?
Gary S:
This hangs on the wall next to the couch where, if we’re watching television or something, so I’m constantly reminded of those are my values.
Warwick F:
That is a good thing to do.
Gary S:
The next point, sorry. I am so lost in my values that I forgot to enter, play my role of moving the show along. The next point then, that was the third point, the fourth point again, to live out of your soul and to make sure that you’re staying true to yourself, Warwick. What’s the fourth point for listeners?
Warwick F:
Yeah, it’s really … This sounds so obvious, but sometimes the important things in life are, but we don’t do it, you want to live in harmony with those fundamental beliefs and values. There are times when I’ve coached people, and as a coach, I say this with a straight face. I say, “Okay, so help me understand what your fundamental values are.” Fundamental beliefs and values. And they’ll tell me something. I’ll say, “Okay, great, so to what degree are you living your personal and professional life in harmony with those beliefs and values?” “Well, not very.” Then I’ll say with a straight face, “No joke.”
Warwick F:
What would you prefer to do, to change the direction of your personal and professional life or to change your values and beliefs? As a coach, I’m not judgmental. It’s not my life. You have every right to change your beliefs and values if you want to and make them more in harmony with what you’re doing professionally and personally. Well, 99% of sane people aren’t going to say, oh, good point. I’m going to continue the way I’m living personally and professionally, and I’m going to change my belief and values. I mean, who does that? I can’t think of too many sane people. Again, I’m just asking, honest to goodness with a straight face, I’ll say, “Well, gee, I guess I’m not living in harmony with that, with my beliefs and values, is that a problem?”
Warwick F:
Well, now that I think about it, yes. It’s not like they’re idiots. They just haven’t thought about it. Who does? Everybody’s too busy. As a coach, what are you going to do next week? What’s plan for moving in a direction of living in harmony? Intuitively, rational human beings understand this is a problem. Therefore, you don’t want to change your fundamental beliefs and values. You have every right to if you want to, but if they truly are your fundamental beliefs and values, trying to change them might mean, oh, I’m not going to live in line with my soul.
Warwick F:
I’m going to reject my soul. Well, you can try that, but that way lies almost guaranteed pain and suffering. Why do that?
Gary S:
That in itself can be a crucible. That in itself, living outside of your soul can be a crucible.
Warwick F:
Right. You want to think about, okay, let me look at my career decisions, my personal, my family decisions, what am I doing? It’s funny. I think of a podcast we recorded just a couple of days ago that’ll come out here at some point in the not too distant future with John Sikkema. He was an Australian business guy working 80, 90 hours a week. He was doing incredibly well, but he was coming home exhausted, having migraines, and he had zero quality time with his family and kids. He was just a hollow shell. His marriage was not looking good. It probably wouldn’t have lasted if he hadn’t changed directions.
Warwick F:
He was a person of faith, but really, I don’t think he felt like he lived his faith day to day, at least certainly not … He didn’t bring his whole professional and personal life in harmony. He wanted to be successful and the thrill of the deal. But when he started realizing, gosh, I’m not really living in harmony with what I believe and he started moving in harmony with that, he still worked a lot of hours, well, actually, he worked less hours, but then he did a lot of volunteer work, but when he was at home, he was more fully alive.
Warwick F:
His marriage got better, his relationship with his kids. When he was living in harmony with his fundamental beliefs and values, his life completely turned around, and his business was just as successful, maybe more. There’s a tangible example of the pre-living in harmony fully with his beliefs and values and the post was dramatic, and that’s true for, I’d say most, if not everybody. Not only are you miserable, you make everybody around you who love you and who you love miserable if you’re not living in harmony with your fundamental beliefs and values, because you’ll be angry, snarky, people at work won’t like that either.
Warwick F:
It has massive consequences personally and professionally. You want to get that in gear. You want to get that in harmony. Your life won’t change overnight, nobody’s does, but just begin to think, we’ll talk about later about how you do this, but start to make some changes so that your life is in harmony. You can’t ignore this.
Gary S:
Right. One of the things you said early on in what you were just saying Warwick is we have these fundamental beliefs and values and then we don’t live out of them because we don’t remember them or we don’t think about them. One of the things I like to do, which is why I hung hope, grace, and legacy on the wall next to where I sit most of the time when I’m just sort of chilling out for the night, but the stoics, who no one will confuse of being Christian religious people necessarily, folks like Seneca and guys like that, they have all kinds of wisdom. One of their sayings from the stoics is memento mori, which means, remember you may die like now. There’s a coin that the stoic society, there are cells where it says memento mori on it.
Gary S:
I keep this in my pocket because this is a reminder to me, if legacy is a value of mine, how am I living right now, knowing that I could … On the back of the coin that says you could leave life right now, knowing that’s true, am I living right now in a way that would make my legacy one that I, my step-kids, who will live on after me, can be proud of? Am I living in light of that? There are little tips and tricks and things you can do to keep your values in front of you, to keep your values top of mind so that you are indeed living in harmony with those values.
Warwick F:
Yeah, and sometimes the concept is simple, the execution can be difficult, but I think for most people that have families, that are part of a family, that have kids, have a wife, have a husband, have parents, have uncles, brothers and sisters, that includes most of the population. We have family somewhere. Not everybody, sadly, but most do, is am I spending time with them? Do I care about them? Am I asking how they’re doing? I’m always complaining about how badly I’m doing? It’s not wrong to share what’s going on when you’re in pain, nothing wrong with that. But am I spending at least some time saying, well, how are you doing?
Warwick F:
If I have young kids, am I with them in their soccer games, their dance recitals? Or was it like, mom and dad, how come you’re never there at my game? Well, I’m sorry, work was busy. Those years are precious. You will lose them for 99% of people. I don’t know too many people that ignoring their kids and spending zero time with them is part of their fundamental values and beliefs.
Gary S:
Correct.
Warwick F:
I don’t know pretty much anybody who would stand up and saying, let me explain why I will defend this perspective and I will ignore my family. I’d say then don’t get married. Don’t have kids. But if you’re going to make that decision, that contract, and sort of another point to this is, you can have a blessing, and I’m certainly not perfect, but certainly one of my fundamental values was spending time with my family, Harvard Business School graduate, not everybody does, and I was fortunate that I just made that choice, had some flexibility. I was pretty much at all of my kids’ soccer, dance recital, plays, not every one of them, but the vast majority.
Warwick F:
One of the things we do in my family is to write cards to each other. On birthdays, we talk about what we admire about the person’s birthday. When it comes to me, whether it’s father’s day or birthday, all of my kids, my boys are more athletic. They’ll say, dad, you were always there at my soccer game. You were there at my tennis match. They’re now in their 20s, every single birthday for, I don’t know, as long as they’ve been able to say these things, which is a long time now. These things matter, your kids, your family, these matters. You want to be able to, and as the decades go by, have those good memories.
Warwick F:
You don’t want to say, I’m so sorry, son, I’m sorry, daughter. I blew it. Forgive me. I will try and live different now. Redemption is always possible, but do you want to have that conversation when your kids are in their 20s, 30s, 40s? I think you want to avoid that. Building a legacy starts now, not at the day before you die. That’s not the right time to change course. It’s better than never, but that’s why these things matter.
Gary S:
It’s true that you can … It’s never too late to begin to live in harmony with your values. Because there’s always an opportunity. One of the things, it occurs to me about this discussion, soul work is like housework. It’s never done, and that’s a good thing, right? It’s not necessarily a good thing for housework, because it’s like, geez, the house is messy again? You always got to keep cleaning the house, but in the same way, soul work is like housework. It’s never finished. You can keep working at it. It’s never too late. It’s never too late to continue to dive in and discover and live out of that essence of who you are, and that’s what you’ve been describing, and what point five of your blog also describes. Share that with …
Warwick F:
Yeah, it’s funny. It just occurred to me, as you were saying, maybe this should have been another point in there, but part of living in line of your values and beliefs is there’ll be times when you don’t, even if you’ve tried to turn a corner, and that’s where apologizing and forgiveness can be helpful. Maybe it should have been in the points, but I didn’t think about it, but so-
Gary S:
As you go to point five, it’s kind of … I can place it in point five. Explain what point five is and I think we can place that.
Warwick F:
Well, absolutely. Yeah, good point. Basically, you want to visualize, what would your life be like if you were living in harmony with your fundamental beliefs and values? What would your career be like, your personal life? This sense of, what do you feel God or the universe is calling to you? What makes you, you? What is your purpose in life? What do you want your legacy to be? This is part of the directional aspect. What are your passions? I think every human being wants to feel like, on their death bed, or as people have often said, in their eulogy, you want to feel like your life mattered, it counted, you made a difference.
Warwick F:
We talk about, in Crucible Leadership, a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. What do you want your life to be like? That’s part of nurturing your soul, is your soul, I believe, wants to make a difference in the world. I think that’s where we’re wired. It’s funny, in the Christian Faith, they say, we’re born here, we’re here for God’s glory or to live that out in some sense in our lives. I think, more generally, whatever light you feel like the universe has put in you, you want that light to flourish. You want that light to illuminate the world to make a difference.
Warwick F:
We’re wired for idealism. Just ask these questions, and they might seem big, but you start asking yourself these questions, thoughts will come into your head. What do I believe matters? What do I feel called to? You may not have every answer, but you’ll have the beginnings of it. I mean, it can take a little time, but ask these fundamental questions in life, and just briefly back to forgiveness, I think part of you got to forgive yourself for making poor decisions, and part of the soul work of the weeding is, I can be impatient at times, and I wouldn’t say I’m … I don’t get massively angry or anything, but I can get a little short.
Warwick F:
Well, over the years, when I’ve done that with my kids, or my wife for that matter, certainly, I’ll say, look, I’m sorry. I was a little short, I’ve had a bad day. I was impatient. That’s like weeding, just apologizing is part of keeping that soul healthy. If you have a lot of weeds cropping around, that’ll make you feel bad, and how to achieve your life’s calling. But yeah.
Gary S:
That fits in with what point five is, what would your life look like if it was in harmony with your beliefs and values? Well, I would think most people’s beliefs and values don’t involve treating your family poorly, so when you do living in line with not wanting to do that, is to apologize, is to do better next time. That’s one of the things that you want to do. To your point Warwick about how you want to be remembered, one of the reasons that I picked legacy is one of my top three core values.
Gary S:
Have you ever had that thing, where if a genie granted you three wishes, what would you ask for? It’s always, I’d ask for three more wishes, right?
Warwick F:
Right, exactly.
Gary S:
For me, having legacy there allows me to put any other word in there, because my legacy is going to be, do I value people? Is friendship important? Is uniqueness important? Is advocacy important? All the words that are in this deck will be reflected in my legacy, and that’s one of the reasons why I chose it and one of the reasons why living your life in light of what your legacy is going to be, what you’re going to leave behind is such an important thing to do, we believe at Crucible Leadership.
Warwick F:
It’s funny, as you’re talking, the phrase occur to me, live your legacy today. Today is the day you want to live it. If you have lived your legacy each day. I think it can look back in your 80s, 90s deathbed, however long you have, and you’ll say, you know what? I made some mistakes, but I lived my legacy, and in the Christian tradition, we all want to meet our Maker and have him say, “Well done, good and faithful, servant.” Whatever your spiritual belief that you want, the sense of some eternal beings, certainly of friends and family to say, “Well done, you lived a good life. We’re proud of you. You made a difference.”
Warwick F:
That’s really what living in light of your soul is and finding that calling. Yeah, I mean, that’s part of that. It really sort of dovetails into the next point.
Gary S:
Right. I was just going to say that’s a perfect transition point. Bravo for you.
Warwick F:
Exactly. That point is really about, because it might seem, gosh, what does God or the universe want? What’s my calling? What’s my legacy? Wow, those are big questions. I think you asked trusted friends and family, who was the real me? What do you feel like lights me up? Why do you think I was put on this earth? What do you think matters to me? Those close friends and family, they know who you are. I think, those of us who have kids, I mean, you get an idea of how their wired, but what matters to them, what they believe.
Warwick F:
Our friends and family, they know this, and that can help you figure that out. We’ll get into this in the last point of … Because it can sound esoteric, but as you begin to get at least the idea of what continent, what country is my calling, then you can begin to explore how to get there. But you got to at least know what continent or country is, your calling, and what … I mean, you might feel like, I just love kids, and maybe it’s teaching them, maybe it’s counseling. Maybe it’s helping kids who are disadvantaged, have some advantages. I don’t know. I don’t know quite what it is, but I know it’s got to involve kids because I love kids.
Warwick F:
You found the country. You might not have found the exact city or zip code, but you found the country. Then you begin to explore that. I think for many of us, if you ask the big questions, we might at least be able to figure out what country that we want to begin explore in. Your friends and family, to use this example, might say, well, John, Mary, boy, I see the way they’re with kids or they love coaching kids on the soccer field or baseball. I don’t know, they just have this pied piper, this magic ability to connect with kids.
Warwick F:
Something like that sure seems like some calling in some fashion, whether it’s being a teacher, a coach, a counselor. I don’t know what it is, but then you’re beginning to make headway in terms of what you feel like is your God or universe given calling.
Gary S:
Yeah. I loved this point from the blog and this discussion here, this idea of asking trusted friends and family members who they see as the real you, because it’s up until now, we’ve been talking about identifying sort of what’s in your soul, what are the … Then somebody else’s observations can be again, like the exercise of looking through words that describe values. Oh yeah, that one fits me. When people ask you questions who know you well, it can elucidate those things as well. I went on the website called Psych Central. I have no idea if that’s a good website or not, but one of the things that I was looking up is, what are some questions to help you know yourself better?
Gary S:
Here’s some things that your friends and family can have insight on about you that you may not have. For instance, have them ask or tell you what they think your strengths are. Interesting. They can tell you, what do you like to do for fun? Ask your friends, “What do I like to do for fun,” and see what they say back. Ask your friends and family this idea of what are my values is one of the questions this Psych Central article has. I love this one, if I wasn’t afraid, I would fill in the blank. Imagine what your friends and family would say to that and what that could unlock for you as you do the soul work we’re talking about.
Warwick F:
Yeah, that’s a great one.
Gary S:
Yeah, what do I like about my job? What do I dislike? I love that one too, because our friends and family are the ones that we go to and complain about our jobs about. We tell them the good things, but we also sort of unload on them so they can come back to us and they can describe for us and help us see, you don’t like when this happens, you don’t like when that happens, you don’t like when this happens, all things that help move the ball down the field as you’re trying to do this soul work and live in light of who you truly are.
Gary S:
Then the question that we talk about a lot at Crucible Leadership, what are you, I’ll add Warwick’s adjective, what are you off the charts passionate about? What am I off the charts passionate about? You have an idea what that is, the seeds of that are in your soul, but your friends and family have observations that can help you unlock that.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, and this is one we’ve talked about beforehand. There’s the reverse of what you’re passionate about or what really fills you with joy, there’s the negative, right? Which is, what is in the world that really makes you angry, that really frustrate you, say that this is wrong? It’s funny, this occurs a fair amount in Crucible Leadership in the sense of, it’s not always the case, but often you’ve gone through a tragedy, whether it’s abuse or physical or emotional, and there can be the sense of the Crucible Leader, if you will, they’ve been through it, and they might say, I don’t want another living soul to go through what I went through.
Warwick F:
It’s wrong and I’m going to do everything I can to help others bounce back, get through it, and hopefully, still others avoid going through it. Often, negative experiences can be the birth of a calling, a soul-driven calling, if you will, that sense of wanting to help people avoid the pain that you went through. So, it can either be positive, or even from a negative, they can still lead to what you feel is your life’s calling, your life’s work.
Gary S:
Well, that’s your story. It’s why we’re here. That’s why there’s a Beyond the Crucible Podcast because something very traumatic, very soul-crushing happened to you, and out of that, out of the ashes of that, was birthed a calling.
Warwick F:
Well, that’s true. I think most listeners would know having grown up in a 150-year-old family business for a variety of, in hindsight, stupid reasons, having done a $2.25 billion takeover, lost a family business, didn’t help family relations, employees. I mean, the business went on, but it was traumatic. I felt like I was living somebody else’s life. Yes, now, out of that pain, I want to help people understand their true purpose, live lives of significance, significance lives on purpose, dedicated to serving others.
Warwick F:
I want people to live in light of their fundamental beliefs and values, accomplishing a calling that will make a difference in the world. Yeah, I mean, which I like to feel like as best I can, I’m doing … I want others to, so having lived through a lot of pain and at least emotional and financial, I suppose. Yeah, out of that pain, it gave me a vision, a calling of how I want to help other people. We always talk on Crucible Leadership and this podcast, you can’t compare pain. I mean, we’ve interviewed people who suffered physical abuse, who are paraplegic, lost a financial business, somebody that had Parkinson’s, but all these people, they’re using their pain to help others. It’s just amazing.
Gary S:
We’ve gone through the six points in a seven point blog, which will be on, if it’s not already there at crucibleleadership.com, it’s called Seven Ways to Stay True to Yourself. We’ve gone through what we … If we’re in an orchard, we’ve gathered the apples, they’re in the basket. What is step seven? Is baking a pie with the apples. What do we do with all this information that we’ve gleaned about how to live true to ourselves, how to do … We’ve done the soul work, now how do we apply that work to our lives?
Warwick F:
Change isn’t accomplished in one day, but rather than saying, it’s all too hard and do nothing. Real change, like turning an ocean liner, happens in small increments. You want to think to yourself, what’s one small step I can do today to live in light of the real me, in light of my soul? What’s one small step I can take to bring my life personally and professionally in line with my fundamental beliefs and values? To use my example earlier, maybe you have an idea that I love working with kids, well, start talking to friends and family, where do you see that? Start, gee, I haven’t really been a teacher, but let me understand that, being a coach.
Warwick F:
Do I want to go in the medical side as a psychologist? I mean, start chatting to people, maybe volunteer on the side and different things. Some things you’ve got to get certified in and that’s fine, but have some exploratory conversations with folks. Gee, what do you do? What do you enjoy about? You might say, boy, that really sings to my soul and you take the next little step to explore that profession potentially. Think about what one small step will you make, if it’s personal, it might be okay, I can’t quit my job right now, and I’m working at 80-90 hours a week, but okay.
Warwick F:
Maybe I can’t make three of my son or daughter’s soccer game this week, but what one game am I going to make? I’m going to make a commitment. I will make one game this week, no matter what, and if I get fired for that … Well, nobody will fire you for going to one kid’s soccer game, but it’s like, pick one. I know you’ve got a bunch of deals going on or you’re trying to work really hard, or wherever it is. Okay, but what’s the one thing that I can drop so I can go to my kid’s soccer game?
Warwick F:
Life isn’t changed overnight, but pretty soon, one small step will link to another small step. Listeners have heard this, but I think it’s a good example. I didn’t wake up one morning and say, oh, I want to live a life of significance at Crucible Leadership. I want to do a blog and a podcast, and here we go, and here’s a book. It didn’t all roll out like that. It was, over time, as, probably the biggest significant one small step is, is I was working in a local aviation services company doing financial and business analysis.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I could do that pretty well, but I wasn’t feeling like I was living in light of my soul. I came to a point where I felt like almost had this internal conversation with God, or I felt like God, well with me is, is like, you’re not living in light of how I made you. You’re playing small. Not that it’s wrong to do what I did, but you’re not fully using your gifts and talents that I’ve given you. I felt like I was dishonoring God with not truly being who he wanted me to be. I just knew. So, I quit my job. Not everybody can do that. But fortunately, I was able to. Went to a executive coach that did mid-career assessments. She said, boy, you have a great profile to be a coach, executive coach, because I love listening and asking questions.
Warwick F:
Well, that wasn’t the end point. That was a step. As I did that, I found my leadership voice. I didn’t know that I could lead my way out of a paper bag after what … If you’d said, are you a leader? Me? I screw everything up. I am so not a leader. I wouldn’t say that now. In my own way, I think I do lead. Well, that executive coach thing led me to be on my church board and kids’ school board. I found, gosh, I can lead. I gave a seven minute talk in church one time about my experiences, and that people said, boy, your story helped me.
Warwick F:
That led me to begin to write Crucible Leadership. Well, all of those were mini steps. The first step was saying, you know what? I didn’t say it this way, I’m not living in light of my soul. I’m not fully utilizing my gifts and talents. I can’t keep staying here. Now, in my case, I was able to quit. Not everybody could, but you can at least begin to think on the side, okay, who am I? What am I being called to? That one step of listening, in my case, to, I believe was the Lord, led me on a path that I am today in Crucible Leadership.
Warwick F:
But it all started with this sense of I’m not living in harmony with my soul. I didn’t use those words, but that would be one way of translating it. That was one significance step that led to a lot of small steps that led me where I am today, and that was … I don’t know, that was a long time ago. That was like 2003, I think, is when that internal conversation happened. Think of one small step, that one small step can be a lot bigger than you think.
Gary S:
What I love about, and this isn’t the first time that you’ve talked about the power of one small step and the need to sort of break this idea of bouncing back from a crucible into small steps because it can be overwhelming otherwise. One of the reasons I love that, Warwick, is for something you said earlier in this show, where you talked about live your legacy today. One of the things that makes one small step powerful, if it’s one small step that’s moving you toward that life of significance, is that, that one small step is one stone in the road towards your legacy. Those two things go hand in hand as you’re moving forward.
Warwick F:
That’s such a good point you’re making, Gary, is we said earlier that you can live your legacy today by going to the kids’ soccer game, by maybe apologizing to your wife or husband. That might not seem like your whole life is going to turn around, especially if you’ve lived a legacy that was not very positive, might even be damaging, and they’ll say, well, great, you apologized today. I’d like to see a few more because you’ve got about a thousand to one right now. You’re really behind the eight ball.
Warwick F:
Okay, but one apology can lead to another, one soccer game can lead to another, and they can begin to see … Kids can begin to see their father or mother, for instance, or family member, differently. You string a bunch of those things together, your legacy will change, but it’s one bigger step than you realize in changing your legacy.
Gary S:
I didn’t even call for the plane to land. That was just the plane landed. It was like one of those, it wasn’t an emergency landing, but it was a landing where we were busy listening to music or reading books or doing something else while the plane was in flight. That was a great place to stop our conversation today. Let me say this, listener, to you. All of these points in written form are unpacked, as I’ve mentioned a couple of times on Warwick’s latest blog, in Warwick’s latest blog on crucibleleadership.com.
Gary S:
The blog is titled, Seven Ways to Stay True to Yourself. You know you’re in a better spot, listener, than we are right now because you know what this podcast is called as you’re listening to it. As we’re recording it, we have no idea what we’re going to call it yet. I can tell you that the blog is called Seven Ways to Stay True to Yourself, but I can’t tell you what the podcast is called, and you know that, and we don’t. So, you should feel good about that, that you have some information that we don’t have, but thank you for spending this time with us.
Gary S:
Until the next time we are together, we ask that you would remember a thread that ran throughout this conversation, that crucible experiences are indeed difficult. They’re painful, they’re traumatic. They can truly knock you for a loop, but they are not, they are not the end of your story, and they are not the end of to talk about one of the things we talked about here. They’re not the end of your legacy either. If you learn the lessons of that crucible, if you, in consultation with, and living from what you know to be true out of your soul, if you learn the lessons of that crucible, you apply the lessons of that crucible as you move forward, that crucible experience from those ashes, that crucible experience can lead to an exciting new chapter in your life.
Gary S:
Far from the end, it’s a new chapter in your life, a new chapter in the story of your life, and it can be the most rewarding one yet, because in the end, as we’ve talked about here, it can lead to a life of significance.
There are times in life we may feel we are not being true to who we really are, to our authentic selves. This feeling deep in our gut that we are living someone else’s vision, perhaps someone else’s life, gnaws away at us. Our friends, even those who love us, may feel content about our lives. But we don’t! We have sold out. We have given up. We feel deeply unhappy and beyond frustrated. We are living, as some have said, in the land of smoldering discontent. But we have lived in this barren land without hope for as long as we can remember. Is there any alternative? Is there a way out?
Sadly, so many live these lives of quiet desperation — to use another phrase. How did we get here? It may have come from listening to the expectations of our parents or our friends. Perhaps in school we were told we were good at math, even though we also were good at music. But with math you can become an engineer which may be perceived as a better and safer career track than music. But just because you were good at math does not mean you love being an engineer. You listened to the advice of others and so began your journey into the land of frustration.
Deep down, this is more than just using your gifts and talents in the most rewarding way. It is living in light of your soul. You have not been true to what you believe you were put on this earth to do. You feel there is some purpose God or the universe has for you, and you are not living this out. That thought is killing you!
So how do you live in light of your soul, your true inner self, the inner essence of who you truly are?
1. Recognize that you have a soul.
All humans have a soul, an inner essence that makes them different than anyone else. Within your soul is your purpose, what you were made to do. Those things that light you up, fill you with hope, that give your life meaning. When you think, “Why was I put on earth?”, your soul — your inner self — provides the clues to that answer.
2. Examine your fundamental beliefs.
We live in a fast-paced, busy world, where few people have the time or make the time to reflect. What’s the point? Life is so busy and competitive. Get a job, hopefully a good one, work your way up the corporate ladder; hopefully have a family life and some pleasurable hobbies and interests. Isn’t that all there is to life? The short answer is no. To find the beginnings of the answer as to who you are, consider your fundamental beliefs. If you were raised in a religious, spiritual or philosophical tradition, think about what elements of those traditions do you really believe in and think are very important. You may not buy into everything in that tradition, but some elements may really resonate with you. For instance, in the Christian tradition, you may really be moved by the concept of servant leadership or doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, the so-called Golden Rule.
3. Reflect on your values.
Our beliefs often inform and influence our values, but it is worth writing down what we feel are our values. Write down a few words that describe the values you most believe in. For instance, for me two of my highest values are integrity and humility.
4. Consider to what degree you are living in harmony with those fundamental beliefs and values.
When you think of your life, the career decisions you have made, the decisions you have made in your personal and family life, how much is that congruent with who you really are? Are you living your own true authentic life, or are you living someone else’s life?
5. Visualize what your life would look like if it was in harmony with your fundamental beliefs and values.
What would your career look like if it was in complete harmony with what makes you, you, your soul? Perhaps you would no longer refer to your career as a career, but as a calling. What do you feel God, or the universe, is calling you to? What is your purpose in life? What do you want your legacy to be?
6. Ask some trusted friends and family members who they see as the real you.
These have to be people that are for you and do not have any agenda other than to help you live in light of who you truly are. Perhaps even ask them, “Why was I put on this earth?” You may find someone says something that rings true, or sparks in you an idea or thought that could lead you in a positive direction.
7. Take one small step to live in light of the real you today.
Finding your purpose is no easy task. But once you have a clearer idea of your fundamental beliefs and values, what lights you up, your almost God-given or universe-given passions, then it is easier to take the next step. What is one step you can take today to live more in line with who you are? It could be thinking of your work differently. Perhaps you will think of your family and friends differently, and how you interact with them. Living on purpose can cause us to treat others differently. If you find your values are kindness and generosity, for instance, if you consciously try to live today like that; that can have a significant effect on how you treat others at work and at home.
Life is a journey. But as you take one step at a time, one day at a time, with purposeful steps to live in light of your fundamental beliefs and values, your true self, your inner soul, your life may well look quite different. Days of purposeful living add up to weeks and months even years of purposeful living. Over time, your life will change, grow and evolve and your purpose – which is deeply in line with your fundamental beliefs and values, your soul — will come. It will not be easy to plan; life rarely is. Trust the process, trust yourself and you can indeed live in light of your soul. That leads to a life of joy and fulfillment.
Reflection
Examine your fundamental beliefs. Write down elements of them that are central to what you believe you and life is all about.
Consider your values. Write down the values that you believe are the core of who you are, no more than three to five.
Take one small step today to live in light of the real you. Take one step forward this day that is line with your fundamental beliefs and values, that would begin to make your soul soar.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Some people may look at John Ramstead’s life and say he’s lost a lot. Crucibles cost him his dream of being a Top Gun fighter pilot, almost ruined him professionally and financially and nearly killed him in an accident that led to dozens of surgeries over two years — and still left him with physical challenges. Yet Ramstead, an in-demand leadership coach and successful podcast host, says those “losses” helped him find the most important things in his life: his faith and his purpose. He recounts it all in his new book On Purpose, With Purpose: Discovering How to Live Your Best Life — which offers readers insights and action steps to find the true north essential to navigating the journey of their lives.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible, I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
John R:
When you’re fighting a combat mission or you’re on an airliner flying along, the way those instruments up in the cockpit work is they have to have a navigational reference. They have to know where True North is so they can, not only set a course, but make a course correction when it needs to happen. Here’s the deal, we’re the pilot in charge of our own life. Our life is constantly being pushed off track, health, relationships, the economy, pandemics. If we don’t have a True North, which I believe for me, it’s my faith, but it’s also the identity.
John R:
As I moved from that person I saw in the mirror to my identity in Christ, and those got in alignment, making decisions, what to say yes to, what to say no to became very straightforward, because remember, folks out there listening, whatever you say yes to, you are saying no to something else.
Gary S:
That’s a clever metaphor about navigating through life from today’s guest, John Ramstead, but it’s more than that too, because John was a Top Gun fighter pilot who knows a little bit about the importance of knowing where True North is. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and communications director for Crucible Leadership. On this week’s episode, John’s second time chatting with Warwick, making him our first return guest. He discusses his new book, On Purpose With Purpose: Discovering How to Live Your Best Life. He recounts, in the book and in the interview, the cavalcade of crucibles that cost him his pilot seat, almost ruined him financially, and set him on an arduous two-year path as he recovered from a terrible accident.
Gary S:
Some people may look at his life and say, he’s lost a lot, but that’s not John’s perspective. His is that all he’s lost has helped him find his purpose and that all important, True North.
Warwick F:
Well, John, thanks so much for being here. I loved reading your book On Purpose With Purpose, and so exciting, it’s coming out this month in April. You really weave in some just incredible stories, funny stories with some just profound points about what it takes to really lead and to be a leader with significance. It’s awesome. Before we get into the book, just, I know we’ve chatted before, so listeners will be familiar with this, but just give us a few highlights of your story that sets the stage for your book, just kind of the cliff notes version, if you will, some of the key way points, in your life.
John R:
Okay. Well, first of all, great to be with you guys, Gary, Warwick, and love what you’re doing, bringing context and I think growth to crucibles. Having been through post-traumatic stress through some things I’ve been through, I love this concept I’ve been learning about called posttraumatic stress called post-traumatic growth, and that’s what you guys are facilitating. Grew up in Minnesota, had a dream to go in the military, applied to the Naval Academy and ROTC, got in. Chose ROTC. Then I was in college when the movie Top Gun came out. I’m told, as I’m applying to flight school, I never knew if this was true, but we were told one out of every 10,000 people applying get to fly a jet.
John R:
I literally almost quit right there. That’s a whole story, but literally, actually I did quit and realized I was giving up on myself. That’s something we could circle back to, but got down to flight school. There are some great stories there. Flew the F-14. Like you said, I’m so excited, I get orders to go to Top Gun. Then a few days later, I get hit with a line drive in the eye, blow out fracture, nerve damage. I’m done. My entire identity is wrapped up in being a fighter pilot, being a Naval aviator, and it’s gone. I was a pilot who couldn’t fly, an engineer who’d never engineered anything.
John R:
That transition was really difficult. I actually started a company, and because I was not ready, I was still angry and bitter and immature and trying to figure out who the heck I was, I succeeded in my first company blowing up both a friendship and the company. Then I put 90 hours a week into a startup, grew to having a net worth on paper of millions, I mean walk away money, and the 2000 turned, internet bubble pops, 90 days later, not only is it gone, but I’m six figures in debt and I’m on the street, but you got to keep moving forward. You have no choice.
John R:
There’s these times in our life, these crucible moments that we don’t feel prepared for, and choosing to pause or stop or not move forward, not wake up the next day, I guess that’s always an option, not a good one, but you don’t feel like you can. It’s painful. But rebuilt from there and then got into the financial industry and had to manage an entire team and a practice through 2008 in the financial meltdown. We actually did really good, but that was hard. I’m like, you know what? Enough of this. I’m tired of working for these big companies. I want to get back to being an entrepreneur, and this is now in 2011.
John R:
I just started with a new group, new partners, new company, going to grow it from the ground up. That’s when I had that accident you mentioned that put me in the hospital for two years. Had a severe traumatic brain injury. During that period of time, had no income for two and a half years. My health was gone. I was in chronic pain. Cognitively, I had recovered slowly, but 23 surgeries. Here’s the thing, you reinvent yourself and you’re working hard and you’re on a track, and now you literally cannot do it anymore. I could not show up as CEO or managing partner or any role and succeed when you can show up eight to 10 hours a week. That was the most I could work.
John R:
Going through that, I had to reinvent myself. Then building a coaching practice solo with no resources, and then the pandemic hits. Warwick, a year ago, dude, we had the big Mo going on. I had never been more fired up. As soon as they announced the lockdowns and then they continued, 90% of our events, which were in-person speaking, coaching training were just canceled. It just stopped, and I have 11 people on my team. Then guess what? You just got to turn back and trust God and say, okay, I wonder what I’m going to learn this time.
John R:
Then now, like I’m sitting here, you see me I’m tethered to oxygen. I was one of those few people that got COVID and they put me in the ICU for a week, and it was really ugly for a couple of days, were very concerning, and the hardest part, I think, in that scenario was the family can’t come visit and we’re FaceTiming, and they don’t know each FaceTime if it might be the last time. I mean, it was that bad. I’m not using hyperbole there. I saw, after I got home, I’ve been home now for two months, still on oxygen, tore up my lungs and affected my heart. But I also saw in that, especially I think in light of what happened in my accident, now nine years ago, it really shook my kids. They thought maybe this time they really were going to lose their dad.
John R:
That is a snapshot. But man, there’s been … In each one of those, there’s been other crucible moments, but man, it’s been a life that I don’t think is actually that different than most of the people out there. We have these significant highs, but then we have these valley times that we have to go through. What’s allowed me to keep moving forward is how I’ve been able to put those in context and think about them, which I was not very good at in the beginning, but the more and more you go through them. What I love about what you’re doing is you’re showing people how to move through those adversities and those valley times.
John R:
Honestly, there was times where God just did not make sense to me. I don’t see his plan. I don’t see his will. Why is this happening? But I learned actually how to think about that, I think, accurately and differently in a way that was helpful.
Warwick F:
Well, I mean, you’ve had … We talked off-air that maybe your next book would be on resilience. I mean, you’re in a sense an expert on resilience, not by choice, but by circumstance.
John R:
That’s true. Yeah.
Warwick F:
Lord, I want to be the world’s top gun level expert on resilience. Bring it on. That wasn’t a mission you signed on for, but for whatever reason, God signed you up for the mission.
John R:
By the way, it’s not a mission I would have signed up for either, I’ll tell you that.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I want to talk a bit about your book is, it’s so fascinating, On Purpose With Purpose, and there’s so many good things in here. Just the way you started off talking about being the pilot, in control of your life. You talk about early in your career, you felt like you were living the expectations of others and how you can rewrite the script of your life. Talk about kind of how you felt that in some sense you were living other people’s lives and expectations, because for anybody that knows you a bit, it’s like, boy, John Ramstead, he’s a guy that’s in control. He’s a fighter pilot, fighter pilots don’t live other people’s lives. They kind of take control of the throttle and here we go. It’s like, really? But I find that fascinating. Talk a bit about that whole living in light of other’s expectations.
John R:
Yeah. When you don’t have a very specific, I think destination for yourself, what you are trying to create in your life, what it matters to you, and you don’t have a plan, then you are part of somebody else’s plan. What happened is I fell into that trap unintentionally because when I got out of the military Warwick, that was my identity. That was everything about who I was. I didn’t grow up in an environment where I was around anybody of wealth or tremendous success, and couple that with a young kid who felt completely unworthy of success outside of what I’d been doing in the military, right?
John R:
My self-image was low. I always compensated for low self image. I used to joke saying, you know what? I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I will outwork anybody, and that’s what I did. I just tried to outwork everybody around me. There’s definitely some good things that can come out of that, but there’s also some consequences. What I realized was that I was under the thumb of the tyranny of they, and it was unintentional. What do they expect of me? How do they define success? The people in my company, the people in the community, the people at my church, my family, how do they expect me to show up to be able to succeed in this environment that I found myself in? Certain companies have cultures, right?
John R:
Some of those cultures, their values were completely out of alignment with my own. Now that I’m really in touch with those, my number one, one of my top values is family. But if you go back then and you look and say, okay, John’s working 60 to 80 hours a week, I’m out almost every night, in either a social event, a networking event or a charity event, and I’m traveling two to four days every single week, and I’m exhausted on the weekend. Sunday, I’m just grumpy and nauseous because I’m gearing up, not to get through Friday Warwick, but to survive mentally through Monday night when I can come home and my head can hit the pillow at midnight.
John R:
I never had any problem falling asleep because I was exhausted, because I had so much work to do. I’d come home at 10:00, 11:00 at night and I’d work until I couldn’t keep my eyes open, and then I’d get up at 5:00. No wonder, over time, even though I had all these different successes, and you know what? I look back also during those period of times, when I made some big decisions either to leave a company, like I was talking to my wife about this the other day, that one of the technology companies that I rose to the management level, and I realized I’m totally out of balance. I got a call. I talk about it in the book. I got a call, I’m sitting there in this moment of just almost anguish, despair, dread about my future at this company.
John R:
Because I had heard that I was going to be promoted, and I knew the guy, and he worked harder than me, and a recruiter called. He said, “John, hey, I heard things are going great at your company. But hey, can I run something by you?” I’m like, dude, absolutely.” Guess what? I made a complete career change. I burned some bridges. Now, in hindsight, I honestly wish, I don’t know if I’d made a different decision, but was there a way to actually look at my role and do things differently from a different perspective with a different purpose?
John R:
What I learned actually back then, the reason that I was so consumed with hours is I didn’t really trust people. I was a total control freak. I didn’t let people go do their best because I knew it would reflect on me. Some of that self-image thing was creeping back in. I blamed everybody around me, my boss and the culture for this feelings I was having. I’ll tell you right now, looking back on it now, I take responsibility for those results that I actually had back then, and that’s not how I saw it. I saw myself as a victim of all these things around me.
Warwick F:
It’s almost like, as you’re sharing, it’s interesting you put it in the introduction, because it’s a prologue to your whole book because you didn’t do the interior work. You were running a hundred miles an hour trying to achieve the expectations of your bosses and the shareholders. Not thinking, will this affect my family? I don’t know. This is what it takes to be successful. If I don’t do it, the guy next door is going to do it, and I don’t want him to outwork me. It’s just living some role where without thinking, okay, what destination, what’s my True North? Some of these key concepts, it sounds like you weren’t really asking yourself at the time.
John R:
No, think about what we’re all taught, right? Get a good education and work hard and everything will be fine. That’s kind of what I was taught. I don’t know if that is really the mindset of the generation coming in the workforce now, but man, that is so far from the truth if we’re having some real talk here.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
John R:
If you’re not doing work and that is connected to something that’s meaningful to you, that’s purposeful, and you’re not doing it as that best version of yourself, we can talk about that too. That whole concept of joy, which is internal. My inner game, what I’ve discovered, determines that outer game. I was totally focused for the first, until I was 45 years old and had an accident, on that outer game.
Warwick F:
But don’t you think that, that’s most people in the business world, most aggressive, hard charging folks, that they’re focused on the results and they’re not really thinking about, who am I, what are my values? A lot of people in that they don’t contemplate or reflect. They just move and they just act. Don’t you think your experience is not uncommon, right? There are a lot of others like that.
John R:
No, it’s not uncommon at all. Unfortunately, it’s almost epidemic. I have been able, over the last year, because of Zoom, have mastermind groups and trainings and forums with literally thousands of mid-level to very senior leaders. Fortune 50 type leaders. One of the things I do when we jump in the room, I say, hey, everybody just do a one word check-in. What is the preeminent emotion you’ve been feeling over the last week?
John R:
Something that kind of shocked me, and it’s been consistent and it’s in 80% to 90% of the words are depressed, anxiety, stressed, restless, words like that. Very few of the words are excited, fulfilled, joyful. I think that there’s a lot of us out there, whether we’ve gone … We’re in the middle of a storm, like Warwick, I know you went through. I’ve been through, you’re coming out of a storm or you’re going into one.
John R:
Cause you know what, there’s kind of three cycles, right? Sometimes there’s that calm. There’s a storm coming. What I realized was, when adversity hits, nothing ever remains the same. You either emerge from that adversity stronger or you emerge from it weakened. The question is, there is going to be another storm. I got to the point in my life, I said, I realized is, what can I do to emerge and set myself up so that when it does happen, I not only emerge stronger, but help those around me emerge stronger with me?
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Gary S:
Can I jump in really quickly? Because you said something at the start of unpacking all that, John, that I think is really important for listeners to understand, and Warwick talks about it a lot. You said that your identity was caught up in what you were doing in the military. You were a fighter pilot. How much do you think the pain of your crucibles, the changing of trajectory of your crucibles has been tied to maybe your identity coming from external forces, not from your own passion?
John R:
Well, it came into sharp relief, Gary, after my accident, when I had to rebuild everything, I’ll never forget. I was actually sitting there with a coach of mine, and I’m trying to figure out what’s next. I said, I need to figure out how I’m wired, then I can figure out what I should do next. He goes, “You know what? What if he asked yourself that question differently? What if you asked yourself, how did God wire you and what did he wire you for?” That, Gary, started this process where I started to really, this whole quest of self-awareness, to look in the mirror and say, what is it that I really do see if I actually pull back the curtain? Because it’s kind of ugly in there.
John R:
What are those limiting beliefs? What’s in my identity. Are there things that people said to me that are lies about who I am and my capabilities that I’ve accepted as truths. As an example, when I was getting into business, I had a corporate job and I was going to go start that first company with a friend who didn’t graduate college. I had a family member that was really concerned. They were very conservative, grew up in the depression, and they thought I was an idiot putting my family at risk, and they told me that I would never succeed as an entrepreneur, and that they were ashamed of me and embarrassed that I would put my family in that situation.
John R:
Now, that stuff sinks in. I told you, that company that blew up, I was, I think, making decisions and taking actions and working so hard as much to prove that person wrong, or more to prove that person wrong than actually trying to do the best thing for my company, my team, my customers. That was always front of mind. But I went through this process of saying, okay, here’s what I see. I have what I call my should values, right? I’ve adopted all these values that make me show up in a way that’s appealing at work and where I’m at.
John R:
Are they really in alignment with those core values, the ones that are wired into me? What are my passions? What are my beliefs? How do I root out some of these lies that I’ve let into my identity? Because what I realized was there was this enormous gap between that identity that I was allowed being given to me externally to an identity in Christ that already existed. What I have discovered for me is, the bigger that that gap is, the more stress, and anxiety, and panic and indecision and ambiguity that we experience in the moment.
John R:
As I really worked to close that gap, and God helped me, and people who were coaches and mentors and disciplers helped me to close that gap, I got to tell you, that stress and that anxiety just melted away. In that, I’ll tell you this before, Gary, that whole concept of purpose, what I should do and why. It’s our big why. we all talk about it. I never felt like I honestly really connected to it. I was compensating with my work ethic, and I felt like it was this mystery. Either I wasn’t worthy of being connected to something meaningful or I didn’t have the tools to root it out of the ground and find it like it was a treasure hunt.
John R:
I realized, my whole life I’ve been going about it backwards, because as I was on this journey to close this gap between my identity and my true identity, the one I saw in the mirror and then the real one, the best version of me, it’s like the fog cleared from the playing field and my purpose was right there in front of me and they have been the whole time.
Warwick F:
I find that fascinating, because it seems like the core of your book is this quest for identity, True North, destination that it’s feels like the foundation is that. You have so many things you put in there, like when that softball accident happened, you talk about you couldn’t get past that broken heart. You’ve felt like smoldering discontent that obviously, who is John Ramstead identity? It’s being a fighter pilot. It’s being the number one through the whole ACE of the base story, which we’ll get to, hopefully, the one in 10,000. You’re the best of the best. You’re about to go to Top Gun. Who is John Ramstead? He’s one of the top fighter pilots in the US Navy. That’s who you are. You had that sense of identity. Then, okay, I’m going to outwork anybody.
Warwick F:
I’m the guy that can work anybody else under the table, because I just will, I have that determination. So, you had these series of identity, and then after that accident, it seems like things change. You have this wonderful quote about that accident, talking about identity. You say, “though, from the outside, the accident might’ve looked like a tragedy, God used it to bring me to my life’s purpose, having to dig deep into my true identity as I did after the accident resulted in living my life more fully than I ever have.”
Warwick F:
In some way, that was unbelievably painful, but you mentioned 20 plus surgeries. Be it in some sense, there was beauty or purpose that came out of that tragedy. Was that the culmination of a journey of, after you went through that, that you really found who your identity was and your purpose?
John R:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. In John 10:10, Jesus says, “I came to give you life,” and so that you may live it to the full. How many of us actually feel, say scale of one to 10, here’s my 10 dude, Paul gets the tar beat out of him, cane, whipped, thrown into a Roman nasty prison in the basement, shackled to a wall, and what does he do? He busts out in praise songs. I’m like, okay, that’s a 10. A one is you’re barely hanging on. I got to tell you when I ask people that today, like, where are you on that scale? I have never had anybody rank themselves over an eight. The majority of people are a four or five. I actually, when I really, and actually created … To assist in to actually figure out where you are on a scale like that. I’m an engineer, right?
John R:
I like to have a process. I was a 2.1. I actually calculated it, and I’ll show you how to do that, but here’s the thing. But if I’m a two, this is at the height of my career before my accident, running a company, working those hours, recognition in the community, I was so out of alignment, my identity was so external, and I was miserable. That place of smoldering discontent. I could not have told you, Warwick why, I just knew I was unhappy. My big focus is, for me, because I’m honestly a simple guy, it’s what is that next small step?
John R:
That became my mantra in recovery. What is the small step that I can take today? If I’m a two, what would a three look like? Do I need to bring my passions more fully into my life? Do I need to maybe work at honoring my values a little bit better? Do I need to work on some mindset issues? I only could work on one or two things at a time. I just had to think through and pray and say, God, what is the one thing today that I need to work on? It’s like 10 years later. Totally, we overestimate what we can do in a year, but under estimate big time what we can do in 10 years. You know what? This is a journey.
John R:
Through this, we’ve come up with a model that my whole family knows, and that is excellence is the standard. But grace is the word, because guess what? I’m going to have bad days. There’s days I might feel like a victim. There’s days I’m working on some of my anger issues and I blow up at my son, but I want to get to a place of excellence. I want to get gooder. I want to improve. Guess what? I’m going to give myself some grace. I’m going to go to my son and I’m going to apologize. This was a shift, and I’m going to ask him to help me be accountable and share with him, here’s the relationship I want to have. I just hurt our relationship.
John R:
I want you and I to be best friends, because I didn’t have that with my dad until it was a lot later, or my mom, our whole lives. Today, Warwick, my marriage is we walk down the street holding hands, and my kids, every one of them, I’ll guarantee you they’ll either call or text me today. I am as close to my kids that I’ve ever been beyond anything I’ve even ever hoped for as a father. Just focusing on those little things. Something else too, I got to tell you, it was an exercise, I was with Lance Wallnau. You might know Lance.
John R:
He had me take out this huge piece of paper and turn it sideways. Like one of those ones you draw on, like when you’re doing a conference, like a retreat, the ones that you peel off and stick on the wall, but you turn it sideways. He had me draw a line all the way through it. He goes, “John, I want you to plot on here, highs and lows, but from a spiritual perspective, where were you spiritually? What’s the earliest high or low that you can remember?” I marked that. Then we have the lines, and he goes, we’re going to do it in pencil because I want you to make them start making them relative to each other, the peaks and the valleys.
John R:
Then we looked at all of these things and said, hey, what was happening that turned the peak into a downturn? What was happening through the valleys? What caused the upswing? Are there anything here in common? But then he asked me a really important question because there was a number of valley times. He goes, “Do you look at some of those?” Some of them, I haven’t even shared in public. They were very painful, personal trauma. Some things, especially in my childhood. Do you go look at those things from a place of pain, anguish, fear, or do you look at those from a place of learning and equipping?
John R:
Because he shared with me, that’s how God sees it. Each one of those are these beautiful treasures, because the first thing God said to me at the accident, if you remember this, the first word, the Lord of the universe standing next to me, he said, “All things work together for good, for those that love the Lord.” I’m thinking about that and I’m looking at some of these very painful things in my past going, okay, how does that work together for good?
John R:
Well, instead of seeing that as something that defined me or something painful, I asked myself, is that something that could equip me to do better today or/and help somebody else that maybe has that either in the past or was going through something I think similar. It was a process, I’ll tell you that. But I would say that today I’m in the healthiest mental place I’ve ever been because I look at all those valley points now from a place in context, really from, talking about transforming my mind to the mind of Christ.
John R:
From a place of equipping and learning, not a place of pain or doubt or regret. Even though some of that is there and some of it kind of creeps in, then I got to ask myself, where’d that come from, and why did it come in there?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. It’s interesting you mentioned Lance Wallnau. You have a very interesting quote of his, and from a spiritual perspective, may make sense, but people may be not familiar with this. You mentioned in your book, Lance says something like, God calls tells you to do something or gives you a vision and just surrendering our life purpose for which you’ve been created. It’s almost like maybe the creator has a plan, maybe we don’t fully realize it. Rather than saying, well, what do I want to do? It’s almost like what you’re saying is, what was I made to do? What was I designed to do? What was the God given passions that are within me?
Warwick F:
It seems like there’s, it’s not just an internal, there’s almost an external part of finding your purpose. Is that some of what you and Lance were kind of grappling with?
John R:
Yeah, 100%. I noticed as I’m … There’s been a evolution in my prayer life, I would say, before the accident, I was going to church and all those things, but my prayer was here’s the desires of my heart, here’s my business goals, here’s my plan, here’s this. It was almost like the spiritual ATM. It was very immature. It’s like my three-year-old grandson, right? It’s like juice, snack. Then as it evolved, it was like, God, what is your will for my life? I was looking for that assignment. If you actually looked through the Bible, as I’ve now read, because I didn’t do it till after the accident, cover to cover, those assignments, Moses, Jacob, Isaiah, others, they’re actually kind of few and far between.
John R:
What we’re called to do is to love God with all our hearts and love others. We’re called to disciple nations, which is to talk, I think about the gospel and the kingdom, and be ambassadors to that. What I realized was, in all this, having been in God’s presence and realized, not only that he cares about me personally, and I’m not special. This is everybody. But he is, I knew in that moment, he was moving big time in this world and it’s accelerating. I truly believe it’s why I’m alive. I have a part to play in some way.
John R:
My prayer today Warwick is God reveal your will to me that you’re doing in the world. Reveal to me what you’re doing in the life of Warwick in Gary. What are you doing through crucible leadership or this company, this client that just hired me, and what do I need to do to adapt, to grow, to change in order to partner with you and join you in what you are already doing? I got to tell you, some of that is a big stretch. I’ve got to tell you, I’m just being real, some of that has prompted some serious crisis of faith, because that gap felt really big between where I was and serving in that capacity.
John R:
I got to tell you, but think about this, everybody talks about the Ephesians 2:10 calling, right? We want to find the calling part, but what’s the first part of that verse? That you are Christ perfect workmanship. That does not have dependent events. That doesn’t mean you have to go get ready to get ready to get ready.
Warwick F:
Well, I think what you’re really reinforcing is the notion of the being of the leader over the doing of the leader. Metrics are overrated. Nothing wrong with metrics, but metrics, if a leader says, gee, my vision is to grow the company 20% per year for the next five years, you always know that’s the wrong answer. Every leadership textbook will say, well, that’s not a vision. It’s sort of like, I think what you’re really emphasizing is just the being of a leader rather than what you accomplish, how many books I sell, you sell, how many workshops you have, how many leaders you help. That’s not the relevant thing is, am I doing what I feel called to do today?
Warwick F:
Next year and in the next 10 years, am I being who I’m meant to be? The metrics will take care of themselves, but that’s a backwards way for most leaders to think. They think of numbers and doing, which is not wrong rather than, am I being who I’m called to be?
John R:
Well, yeah. From a leadership perspective, you’re spot on. Think about this. What does it say in scripture, that there is no love greater than this than to lay down your life for me. If I’m in leadership, what if I said, you know what, there is no love greater than this if I was to lay down my agenda to serve the agenda of others? I got to tell you, this was modeled to me, believe it or not, by my commanding officer when I was first in the military. I went up to him one day and I said, “Listen, I want to stay in the Navy as a career.” I didn’t know the softball thing was going to happen. I said, “What advice would you give to me?” I’ve always reached out to people who have succeeded at what I want to do and get their input.
John R:
As a junior officer, and he goes here, “Do this, John. Do your job with excellence. And every day, you go find somebody in this squadron that you can serve, senior to you, junior to you, enlisted officer in your department or not and you help them succeed, and you might never get any credit or rewards or recognition, but trust me, those in charge, those that care are going to notice. If you just do that from a place of integrity, you will never have a problem with your career.” What was he saying? Serve others. A rising tide lifts all boats. I think the reason I had the business success I did, Warwick, is my philosophy was always, if I help other people to succeed in that role, max out their comp plan, be invested in them personally, know their families and their kids and what’s going on outside of work.
John R:
And I just help them succeed as a person, and I have enough people do that, just as a by-product of that, I’m going to do just fine. That’s what I was doing this whole time. But that success that I was looking for, for myself had never been defined where that goes. I was like in this mode of constantly working and serving with really no direction or end in sight, and I think that’s what just wore me down to a nub.
Warwick F:
I want to talk just briefly about some of the key principles in your book. I don’t want to give the whole thing away because obviously you need to read the book to fully understand them, but you found your true purpose. You have this wonderful chart there, page 24 of the book, in which you’ve got personal assets, talent, skills, experience, and passion, and you’re on the upper right. You found your calling, working with leaders, empowering them. How do people, at least at a high level, find that true purpose, that sense of joy and fulfillment you have despite all the pain that you have? As you say, you’ve had more joy, more fulfillment, greater marriage, greater relationship with your kids.
Warwick F:
You’re serving your clients. Life is pretty good, even amongst the physical pain, but there are some key building blocks that you outlined in your book of True North, destination, accurately describing your present position. Just touch on some of those key elements that listeners will then … Hopefully their appetite will be whetted to then read the book, is what are some of those key building blocks to help you get to where somebody like you are in a sense in terms of that sense of joy and purpose?
John R:
Yeah. Think about it, when you’re flying a combat mission or you’re on an airliner flying along, the way those instruments up in the cockpit work is they have to have a navigational reference. They have to know where True North is so they can, not only set a course, but make a course correction when it needs to happen. Here’s the deal, we’re the pilot in charge of our own life. Our life is constantly being pushed off track, health relationships, the economy, pandemics. If we don’t have a True North, which I believe, for me, it’s my faith, but it’s also the identity.
John R:
As I moved from that person I saw in the mirror to my identity in Christ, and those got in alignment, making decisions, what to say yes to, what to say no to became very straightforward, because remember, folks out there listening, whatever you say yes to you are saying no to something else. I am a born people pleaser, right? The next thing is, think about you jump in the car and you pull out your Apple maps or Google, and you’re going to go somewhere. You’re running an errand and now you got to go to a different spot.
John R:
What’s the first thing you do? Type in the destination. That app is useless without a destination. It doesn’t even know where to start. It can just show you a map of where you’re at. Of course, I can look around and see where I am. What is that destination that we have in our own life? What is that purpose? Why are we doing this? What is that outcome that we’re striving for, both short-term, long-term, and that legacy we were creating? I want to live a life, Warwick, so the use of my life would outlive my life.
John R:
I’ve got clarity on that one. I should have died 10 years ago, and I realized in that moment, that is not how I’d lived my life. The other thing that we talk about is your present position. Who’s ever pulled up that map and you’ve typed in that destination and it really has, Waze is actually the worst of this man. That’s why I don’t use it anymore. It doesn’t know where you’re at. Then, so you’re trying to make a guess because I’m not familiar with this part of town, and I always go the wrong way. Then I’m on a one-way street, and then it adds like eight minutes to my trip and I’m now I’m late and now I’m frustrated. It’s no different than our own life.
John R:
If we don’t know where we are at, our values, our passions, our mindsets, we can’t figure out, hey, where we’re at and then compare that to the better version of ourselves and start making some progress. Really, the last chapter is where it all comes together for people to create a strategic action plan, and that’s a place called convergence. That’s where all this comes together to move up into the right in that chart, like you talked about, to that 10-10 life. That’s a life fully alive. All of these work together.
John R:
What I’ve discovered is, and this is hard for a lot of busy high capacity folks, I have never found anybody that’s moved into what I would call an extraordinary life, a life fully alive without first slowing down in order to speed up. Even if it’s honestly, just carving out 10, 15 minutes a day or a few times a week to start determining, hey, what are those small steps I need to be taking today? It doesn’t take a lot, but those small incremental changes.
John R:
Then you start getting awareness on all this, and all of a sudden, the fog on that in front of you just starts to lift a little bit, and then what that does this got me excited. Then I took the next step forward and the next step forward and the next step forward, and all of a sudden, 10 years later. But I got to tell you, two years into it, I’d already restored and healed my marriage and relationship with my kids. There were some beautiful milestones along the way.
Warwick F:
I mean, your story is kind of remarkable, and most people, they don’t think. They just act. As you said, I want to go to a good college and I want to get a good job, and I want to work my way up, and nothing wrong with all of that, but is life more than going to a good college and making lots of money and moving up, whether it’s in the military or in the business world? For most people, it’s like, well, what else is there? That’s achievement. I mean, it’s just such … I don’t mean to put people down, but it’s just a superficial way of looking at life. You’re not living true to who you are, your own identity, your own True North. You haven’t really marked out a very clear destination other than I want to work my way up.
Warwick F:
Because that’s what the destination is, just work my way up to the top of the ladder, and then what? I say, you outlined just some key principles and it’s just remarkable that your accident seems to have been just that key point where you could start thinking about your talents and your passions in that upper right quadrant, and getting your marriage to the point where it is. But you had to have a lot of conviction. I’m just trying to find it here. There’s some interesting point here where you were trying to reset your life, and you have this fascinating quote.
Warwick F:
You said, “there were people around me who thought it was irresponsible of me to pursue my passion. They told me to accept my new normal. What I heard was they felt I should settle for an ordinary life.” These are probably well-meaning people, but you wanted to reset your whole life in light of your God given purpose. But yet, it felt like some people were saying, well, no, no. Right? That probably wasn’t helpful.
John R:
Yeah, that was coming out of the accident. I had a well-meaning doctor, Warwick, sit wife and I down. This is as about a year and a half into my recovery. At this time they really knew the extent of my brain injury and physical limitations. He goes, “Listen, I just want to set expectations. I just want you to know John probably won’t be able to be a greeter at Walmart.”
Gary S:
Oh my goodness.
John R:
They kept talking about the new normal that we had to adapt to. I’m like, dude, I ain’t going to have no new normal. I’m going to have the old normal back. I hate the word new normal. Here’s the deal though, I do have it and it is different. When I said, okay, here’s a guy, two years, two and a half years no income in a hospital bed, chronic pain, brain injury. I had seven figures in debt because of the medical bills. I had a lien against me. I said, you know what I’m going to do? I can’t go work, so I’m going to go start. God led me into this. That’s a whole nother story, but a coaching, I’m going to start my own coaching business out of our house.
John R:
Talk about being the most likely to succeed in the entrepreneur lottery. Here’s the deal. I looked at my wife and I said, we’re going to do this. She goes, “If this is what God wants you to do …” Everybody else thought I was nuts, to put my family at risk, to go do … Now, I’ll tell you something because God gave me a vision, and this is what led to my purpose. This was just a lot of time in this whole process, but I’ll never forget it. This is after I’m recovering from a whole reconstructive surgery to my shoulder, very painful, in bed, reading the Bible, and I heard God speak to me. It wasn’t external like at the accident, but it was very clear.
John R:
He said, “John, I want to use this life I’ve given you to equip and inspire leaders in my kingdom.” That led me into coaching, and I want to share with people, I would go to meet with somebody. Let’s say Warwick is somebody that might either hire me or refer me to somebody. This is back. I could literally work eight to 10 hours in a week. I would go, schedule a meeting with Warwick at 8:30, because that’s the earliest I could, say, get to Denver. I’d meet from 8:30 to 9:30, and then I would schedule one other meeting at 10:30. I would go to my car and sleep. I’d set my alarm for 45 minutes, and I would pass out because I had no cognitive energy.
John R:
Then I could have a second conversation, let’s say with Gary, and I would be done. Wiped out in bed in a dark room for the next two days. I’m telling you, because God … I had to do something, and calling people, showing I couldn’t network, but calling people, developing a list, learning web, all the parts to develop a business like this, most of it to me is not enjoyable. All this stuff that I’m sharing with you guys when you are on purpose doesn’t mean that every element of your life is just like ye ha, being a fighter pilot, being out at sea for six months and all the stuff we had to do, 80% of it kind of blew, but that 20%, …awesome!
John R:
When I’m sitting across from somebody and they connect with who they are, they connect with their faith, I help them make decisions that save their company and save hundreds or thousands of employees’ lives, or I’m with somebody and I see them change who they are, and they tell me that their marriage has been restored, their relationship with their kids has been restored, all that stuff and the stuff that I don’t like to do, but needs to be done, so worth it. I think we also have to keep that in context too Warwick that. The stuff that we’re talking about, being on purpose and connecting all these, just doesn’t make everything all cotton candy, and roses.
John R:
What it does though, there’s thorns in those roses and it makes me very comfortable, happy to move through some of that because I know that I’m moving towards something meaningful, not only for me, but in partnership with God, if that makes sense.
Gary S:
That is an excellent time. I would normally say something just simple and not inspired like, the captain’s turned the fasten seatbelt signs and we’re getting close to having to land the plane, but because I’m talking to a former Top Gun pilot, I’m going to probably mess this up, but I’m going to say the tower has connected to us. It’s time to make sure that you’ve locked your seven point harness, that you’re strapped to your ejector seat, and we’ve got to be putting the F-14 down on the carrier in just a little bit. But Warwick, I know you have some further questions to ask John. Before we get there though, John, let me … I’d be remiss if I didn’t give you the opportunity to tell listeners where they can find out more about Beyond Influence and where they can find out more about your book.
John R:
Yeah. Thanks Gary. You know what? You did a really good job on that.
Gary S:
Well, thank you.
John R:
The book, just go to beyondinfluence.com/book. All the links are there on how to pre-order. If you guys pre-order the book and then leave a review, we’re in the middle of producing our audio book, you’ll get a copy of the audio book for free for just leaving us a review. That’s where you would just let us know that you’re signing up for that. We’re excited about this. My goal is to make this a best seller. We want to bring this out into how people lead, because I really think we can change organizations, ministries, families, and cultures by helping other people become a better version of themselves. When you start on that journey, not you master it, but you’re on a couple steps into it, you can help somebody else. One helps a hundred, that’s 10,000 helps another a hundred, it’s millions. God’s moving right now big time work.
John R:
Warwick And Gary, it’s why you’re doing the work you’re doing. We’d love for you guys to be part of what we feel is a movement, and it’s God’s movement that we’re joining him in, and I believe that’s what where my message in the book. So, beyondinfluence.com/book, and it’s at every bookstore, On Purpose With Purpose, or you type in Ramstead, R-A-M-S-T-E-A-D, at any place you buy books and you’ll find it. Thank you for letting me share that with your crew, Gary.
Gary S:
Absolutely. Warwick.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, boy, I really enjoyed just the concepts in your book of living on purpose. There’s a couple of quotes you have at the end of the book that talks about, sometimes, as we say in Crucible Leadership, amidst the ashes of your crucible, you can find your purpose. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, that’s what happened to you. You say these couple of things, you say, “I experienced a lot of obstacles on my path towards my vision and destination. Most of you have too press on, you can do this. My accident could have been a showstopper, but God used it to bring me to my life’s purpose.”
Warwick F:
Then, in the about the author section, there was this wonderful quote it’s just talk about synchronicity between what we’re both doing. You say this, “John had a personal encounter with God at the accident site who shared with him that he would be getting a second chance. With his life hanging in the balance, John emerged with a profound vision of how to live a life of significance.” Now, we didn’t write that, you did.
Gary S:
Don’t worry Warwick’s not going to call his attorney about that. It’s just that-
Warwick F:
We can all use the word significance, but …
Gary S:
It shows how universal that concept is, right?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. For listeners you may be going through the darkest pit, the darkest trial, and it may seem pointless, and whether you believe in God or not, certainly God or the universe can use it for a purpose. It’s just remarkable how he has. I mean, maybe this is an unfair question, but I think of myself, of my own crucible with the whole family business. I don’t know that I ever could have left that if the family business hadn’t gone under. I’ve never been in the military, but the whole loyalty and duty is pretty hardwired in me. The idea to abandon a150-year-old business, abandon the mission, I couldn’t have done it.
Warwick F:
There’s no way I could have done it. I would’ve felt like I was dishonoring my family and my ancestors. I couldn’t have left. God, I think said, okay, I’ll figure out a way for you to leave. You’re leaving. I don’t know, maybe I’m just stubborn or stupid, but for yourself, do you think you would have found your own joy and purpose without that horrific accident with the horse riding accident connecting to that steel fence?
John R:
It’s an interesting question, right? People say, could you go back and take it back and not do it? Because the answer is, in reality, you can’t, but I would say with total integrity that the person that I am today, the father, the husband, what I get to do in the world, I know for a fact I would not be doing it today had it not been for the accident. I would not be the person I am had it not been for the accident. It’s like, you know what? My vine had fruit on it and God lopped the vine off, the one that had, I thought, some nice fruit on it. That’s good fruit. What grew back was something so much better. You know what? It’s just on my heart. Maybe I could share with something to anybody listening that’s in that dark place.
John R:
Because I’ll never forget. Being at Craig Hospital with a severe brain injury and being in that environment, I mean, I was in so much pain, in addition to my brain not working and being told that I couldn’t be a greeter at Walmart. Imagine all this stuff like … My wife went from being a stay-at-home mom to be my caregiver and having no idea how we were going to survive. We were under the assumption for a while that there is no way for me to earn income, a living. In that, the darkest days, I saw people around me that were not injured as much as me, but they started focusing on, I think the victim side of thing.
John R:
Why did this happen to me? They started focusing on the loss. They started focusing on, I saw them despair, and what I witnessed, Warwick, is them spiraled down into a place that’s scared the wadding out of me, because God told me. He said, all things work together for good for those that love Lord. I held onto that with my fingertips, my fingernails, because it gave me hope. Even though there were some days, literally, I had to have God’s strength to get through the next five minutes, because they’d give me morphine and it would last for an hour and a half. They only could give it to you every four hours. That’s how much pain I was in.
John R:
That last hour and a half before they could give me another dose was absolutely excruciating. I was out of my mind for weeks and weeks and weeks. I’m like, you know what? Maybe, maybe tomorrow could be better than today. When I got to tomorrow and it was worse, I said, maybe next week could be better. I said, well, you know what? I have these amazing people around me and they’re praying and I have my friends, and I am alive. What could I possibly be grateful for when all the evidence is against it? Well, I’m grateful that I’m still here with my family, and maybe next month could be better. I started looking at things from a place of hope and a place of expectation, and I was learning to trust God and what he was doing through all this.
John R:
I know for a fact, that is the reason, some people marvel at it, that I was able to get through all of this, I think, with the way that I did. Anybody that’s out there, that right now, this feels like your darkest day, that today is worse than any other day that you’ve been, I just want to tell you, and I’m sure, Warwick, you would echo this, that trust me, next week, and it doesn’t feel like it, and the evidence isn’t there it can be better, and next month can be better, but what I’ll tell you is, a year from now, it will be better.
Gary S:
I have been in the communications business long enough to know when a Top Gun pilot has just landed the plane, and that’s what we have just heard from John. Thank you listener for spending time with us on this fascinating episode. Our first return engagement with a guest, John Ramstead, the author of On Purpose With Purpose: Discovering How to Live Your Best Life, which releases on April 27th, which if you’re hearing this on the day that we drop the episode is a week from now, but you can find it at his website beyondinfluence.com, back slash or forward slash, John?
John R:
Forward slash.
Gary S:
beyondinfluence.com/book, right?
John R:
Yes, sir.
Gary S:
That’s where you can find it to pre-order if it’s before the 27th of April, and you can order it there if it’s after the 27th.
John R:
Yeah, and if you leave a review, we’re going to … Just let us know. We’ll have a form on there and we’ll send you a free copy of the audio book as soon as it’s out of production.
Gary S:
Fantastic. Listener, until we are together next time, thank you for spending this time with us. If you’ve enjoyed this conversation, if you find hope, if you find perspectives that help you overcoming your own crucibles, moving toward a better time, moving forward on purpose with purpose, if these conversations help you do that, we would ask that you subscribe to the podcast, for one. Two, we’d ask that you’d leave a review at the app on which you’re listening of the show. Be honest, tell us what you think of it, but that helps more people find the show and hear discussions like this.
Gary S:
We ask you to remember, as you move on right now, that your crucible experiences are hard, they are painful. John describes some terribly painful crucibles that have happened to him, even just recently with his COVID challenges, but what his life proves, what Warwick’s life has proven, what your life can prove, is that your crucibles are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story. They can be the most exciting chapter in your story, because where that chapter leads, where your book is going to wrap up at is what we call here, and what John called in his book, a life of significance.
Adversity, Taryn Marie Stejskal says, is a trip we take. Resilience paves the road we walk to move beyond it. As one of the foremost international experts on building and exercising resilience in business and in life, Stejskal has crafted the Five Practices of Particularly Resilient People through exhaustive research into the subject … and informed by her harrowing experience of being stalked in high school by a man who eventually assaulted another victim. It’s not the absence of crucibles that determines our future, she tells Warwick, but what we learn from them and how we apply that wisdom.
Learn more about Stejskal and her practical and empirical insights into resilience by visiting www.resilience-leadership.com or her Facebook page and her Instagram account.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond The Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Taryn S:
When we recognize that we have a choice, all of a sudden we’ve gone from being disempowered to empowered and when we have a choice, that’s power. We always have a choice, even if the choices aren’t good. And that choice is in any inflection point, in any trauma we experience and any grief and any loss and any unfair treatment and any moment where there’s a lack of equity or care or empathy, we get to ask ourselves a really fundamental, oversimplified question which is am I going to allow this to make me bitter? Or am I going to allow this to make me better?
Gary S:
Now there’s a question to write down, fold up, stick in your pocket and pull out to ask yourself the next time you get the wind knocked out of you or worse by a crucible experience. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show, and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. The woman posing that question is Dr. Taryn Marie Stejskal, one of the four most international experts on resilience in both leadership and in life. On today’s episode, she discusses with Warwick her voluminous research and her personal experience with a stalker while in high school that led her to identify the five practices of particularly resilient people.
Gary S:
She unpacks each one and concludes that while adversity is a trip all of us will take in our lives, resilience paves the road that allows us to move beyond those difficult moments.
Warwick F:
Well, Taryn, thank you so much for being here, I really appreciate it. Just love this whole subject of resilience, I think we mentioned off air I am an executive coach and heard you on WBECS, which is a great forum for coaches and thousands of people around the world, so it’s an awesome community and resilience is something certainly I can relate to, in Crucible Leadership we talk about it a lot, but you’ve done a lot. Whether it’s working with folks in Hollywood, the former executive leadership development head at Nike and you’ve done work at Cigna.
Warwick F:
And now with the five practices of particularly resilient people, it’s just kind of an amazing story. But I’d like to get a bit behind the scenes and what led you to have such a passion for resilience? Something about your background growing up, there’s always a story behind the story, so what led you on this journey to this passion for resilience?
Taryn S:
Yeah, it’s a great question actually, and there’s a quote that says something to the effect of, I can’t remember who said it, maybe the two of you know, you can help me, but it’s this idea that our lives are lived forward but understood backwards. And so oftentimes when I think about resilience, it wasn’t until many years later that I understood that a particular experience or moment led me to resilience, until I was able to many years later sort of look back and connect the dots, because so often our lives I think look like maybe a jumble of dots and it’s not until we look back that we can sort of draw that line through and see a clearer pathway.
Taryn S:
What I will say is that I don’t think resilience is for the faint of heart, there’s some kind of internal mettle, there’s some desire to really show up for challenges in life and to figure out how do we continue to do that better over time. And I’m also a believer that so often concepts and ideas, it’s not so much that we come up with them, but that the concept or the idea finds us. So if I share that in a little bit of a different way, I think resilience found me through a number of experiences that I had in my life.
Taryn S:
The first time that resilience tapped me on the shoulder I was probably 14 years old and without knowing it there was a morning before school where I was getting dressed and there was a man outside of my window. And when I went over closer to the window, it was dark in the morning, to turn off my stereo. For those of you that are of the millennial or Gen Z, a stereo is something that played music.
Warwick F:
Yes.
Taryn S:
Instead of your cellphone.
Gary S:
It was your iPod before your iPod.
Taryn S:
It was my iPod before my iPod, sometimes people used to carry them around on their shoulders, so a very heavy iPod. See me later and I’ll tell you about phone booths and butter churns too. And other obsolete devices. And so when I looked at the bottom of my window, it was on the ground floor, there was this face at the bottom of my window and as the light went down this person’s face, this man’s face, and he stood up. And so he’s standing just outside my window, outside, and I’m standing on the inside, and in my 14 year old mind I’m trying to figure out what the heck is going on?
Taryn S:
And what we do in those moments is we scan very quickly through all of our prior experiences to say what else have I seen that might look like this to help me understand what’s happening? And the only experience that I had had to that point at 14 that was even close to that was one time my dad came home from a business trip and he was outside the window and he was playing a trick on us or something like that, knocking on the window trying to scare us.
Taryn S:
And so that’s what I pulled out of my mind in that moment within a fraction of a second or a second, and I said, “Dad?” And he said, “Take off your clothes, your beautiful.” And I thought, not dad.
Warwick F:
Oh my God.
Taryn S:
And so I went and called for my parents and they heard someone running down the street, when they went out on their upstairs deck. And for us, we thought that was maybe just going to be the end of the story. We called the police, we made a police report, and I remember the woman that came to our home said, “You know what, there’s nothing to worry about here, it’s probably just someone passing through the neighborhood, probably just a fluke.” And then eight months later that my parents were out of town, I always kept that window closed, and then the window in the back of the house, I think we didn’t have air conditioning at the time.
Taryn S:
So the window in the back of the house was open for ventilation, and I’d gotten this new bikini from the Gap, and I had taken off the bikini and I was completely naked and I heard that voice again that was etched in my memory. I didn’t know he was there until he spoke and he said, “I’ve been waiting a long time for this.” And for me, as a 15 year old, there were three inconvenient truths there. One, I was naked in front of a man for the first time, two, my childhood bedroom that should have been one of the safest places for me as a young girl growing up became profoundly unsafe, and three, this wasn’t a fluke as we had hoped or as we had believed.
Taryn S:
And what this journey led to was him coming back several times over the course of my high school career and each time his behavior accelerating or elevating.
Warwick F:
And he was outside the window all these times?
Taryn S:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). He never got in the house, although the last two times that I’m aware he was there, he did attempt to break into the house. Once when I was home by myself, he was throwing patio furniture up against a sliding glass door that just thankfully didn’t shatter, and there was a time where I was babysitting at the house behind my house and I saw the figure of a man in the yard and he was advancing toward the house and someone starting ringing the doorbell. And when we went to the door no one was there.
Taryn S:
And then there was a little girl who was a friend and her father came to pick her up and I said, “Were you at the other door ringing the doorbell?” And he said, “No, I just got here.” So what happened sort of short story long or long story short depending on how you want to think about that, is two things, one, I went away to college and his behavior I think continued to accelerate or continued to downgrade and he ended up attacking and brutally raping a woman in my neighborhood and went to prison for 20 years and I realized by the time that I was in my mid 20s, when I was getting a Masters in marriage and family therapy, we were going through the DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual where you learn how to diagnose psychological or psychiatric diagnoses.
Taryn S:
And I was like, huh, I actually meet all of the criteria for post traumatic stress disorder. And I didn’t realize that.
Warwick F:
And as you look back on that, you probably thought, “Well, I guess they were wrong, this wasn’t a one off thing,” this lasted months, sounded like it lasted years.
Taryn S:
It lasted years.
Warwick F:
And you probably, one thought was, “Why me?” But then did you think, “As bad as it was for me, I could have been my neighbor”?
Taryn S:
That’s right.
Warwick F:
That must have been a weird, I mean, part of you was maybe grateful, part of you was horrified. I imagine there was a whole sea of emotions, that must have been a hard thing to deal with and then now clinically understanding what you’re reading, how did you process all that of anger? You don’t often think of anger and gratitude in the same moment, like I’m angry, I feel bad for my neighbor, I know it’s awful to say this, I’m just so glad that wasn’t me.
Taryn S:
Right.
Warwick F:
It sounds awful to say that but you have to be thinking that, right?
Taryn S:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). But that’s just the nature, Warwick, I think of survivor’s guilt, is that tension, that paradox that exists of both gratitude and sadness. A deep empathy for, if you’re crossing the street and a car swerves and it hits the person next to you, you’re like, oh my God, thank goodness I wasn’t hit and oh my gosh, I feel terrible that the other person was. And that paradox of I’m safe but this other person wasn’t, this didn’t happen to me but it could’ve, navigating paradox in the human mind is not something that comes naturally to us.
Warwick F:
It needs a lot of I guess training and processing. So, it’s easy maybe for listeners to hear we can understand why Taryn, her whole mission in life is about resilience given what you’ve gone through. Is it that simple? Do you look back and say, “If this hadn’t happened, what would’ve happened to my life? Maybe I would have done something totally different than resilience,” or all the work that you’ve done on there, do you ever think to yourself what would Taryn be without that episode? What would you have done?
Taryn S:
Right. Well, I think that’s one of the principles of how I think about resilience because the definition of resilience after a decade and a half of research is simple and powerful, it’s the idea that we allow ourselves to effectively address challenge or the challenge, change and complexity that is in our path. And when we address that challenge, change and complexity, we find a way over time to not allow those things to diminish us, but instead to alchemize that trauma, that grief, that loss and to allow ourselves to be enhanced by that experience.
Taryn S:
And so on the one hand, I think it would be very easy for me and for other people that have faced difficulty to sort of be walking around saying, “You know what, if I hadn’t had this stalker, if I hadn’t experienced two decades of PTSD, what could I have become in my life?” And instead I think sort of the crux of resilience is that when we flip the script and instead of saying why did this happen to me? To ask ourselves instead why did this happen for me?
Warwick F:
And that’s so profound, that’s so empowering. We talk in Crucible Leadership all the time about failures and setbacks and you have a choice, in our language, to either hide under the covers and wallow and say why did this happen to me? Or in the case of failure it can be why was I such an idiot? Because sometimes we bring crucibles on ourselves, sometimes it is our fault. Sometimes it’s not. Either way, it’s pretty difficult. But you have a choice, but you made a choice, I’m not going to be a victim for my whole life, this was terrible but I refuse to just cower and wile away the next 40, 50, 60 years of my life until it ends.
Warwick F:
But you made that choice. Because not everybody makes that choice, you’ve studied this more than I do, what led you to make that choice to refuse to be a victim, refuse to just sit back and let life fade away?
Taryn S:
Yeah. Well, we’re only given, and I’ll quote another person whom I can’t give you the name, but we’re only given this one wild and precious life. And the first thing to understand is that so often we don’t believe that we have a choice, or people don’t believe that they have a choice, so the first step is to recognize that you have a choice. It’s not a default to say, well, this horrific thing came to me and therefore my future is circumscribed to be this.
Taryn S:
We are the authors of our lives, we’re the architects of our lives, we have free will for a reason. There’s also that quote of life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we respond, so for whatever reason, I’ve always understood that I had a choice. I didn’t have a choice about the experience, but I do have a choice about how I respond, and the type of life that I live in response to that and living a great life, living a whole life, that’s the best revenge. And I use the word revenge loosely of course.
Taryn S:
But not allowing ourselves, again going back to the definition of resilience, not allowing ourselves to be diminished by our experiences and instead find a way to alchemize that trauma, that grief, that loss, and figure out how we make it beautiful, how we make the testimony. That’s redemption.
Gary S:
I’m going to jump in because so much of what Crucible Leadership talks about and so much about what you talk about, Taryn, it’s as if it was typed on the same typewriter, that’s one of those other old machines that kids today don’t know much about.
Warwick F:
Indeed.
Gary S:
But one of the first quotes you have on your website from someone whose name I’m going to mispronounce and I apologize to her in advance, Pema Chödrön.
Taryn S:
Yeah, Chödrön, I think, one of the first female Buddhist monks.
Gary S:
Yeah, she writes, “Nothing ever goes away until it teaches us what we need to know.” And Warwick has said this, “In our lowest moments we find strength, courage and perseverance we never knew we had.” You’re both talking one side of the same coin in that the crucibles that we go through, the trials we go through, those things, if we address them correctly, if we look at them through the right lenses, they’re a leaping off point to a better life.
Taryn S:
Yeah, this is an oversimplification so bear with me but when we recognize that we have a choice, all of a sudden we’ve gone from being disempowered to empowered. And when we have a choice, that’s power. We always have a choice. Even if the choices aren’t good, and that choice is in any inflection point, in any trauma we experience, in any grief, in any loss, in any unfair treatment, in any moment where there’s a lack of equity or care or empathy, we get to ask ourselves a really fundamental, oversimplified question which is am I going to allow this to make me bitter or am I going to allow this to make me better?
Warwick F:
It’s funny, as I’m listening to you, Taryn, it’s hard for me to just stop nodding in violent agreement if that’s a word, just because obviously listeners would know this, but when I read what you’ve written, I just feel like I’ve lived your thesis, if you will, and everything that you’re saying makes sense. Again, my experience was obviously radically different, but again as listeners would know, I grew up in a very large family media business, 150 years old, had the Australian equivalent of The New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, TV, radio, I was sort of the heir apparent.
Warwick F:
It was a massive company, launched a 2 billion plus takeover for a variety of reasons, my dad had died and I felt like the company wasn’t being run along the ideals of the founder, it wasn’t being run well. Whether was that a good or bad decision, it’s a whole question, but after three years, the company goes under, too much debt, Australia got in a recession. So I never thought it was PTSD, but I had my own crucible moment in that a lot of the trauma I went through was brought on by my own idealism and naivete, I didn’t mean to hurt anybody or do anything bad but just this thought of I’ve single handedly brought down a 150 year old family company.
Warwick F:
My Wikipedia entry is not favorable, I have one, and it’s like young hot headed kid could’ve had it all and blew it is pretty much what it says. And so that may never change, I don’t know, so for me, the ’90s were challenging times, look what I did and I felt like I’d let my family down and as a person of faith, and the founder was a person of faith, I felt like, gosh, I’d let down the universe or God in some sense. It was pretty heavy on a lot of levels, but eventually as I clawed my self esteem back, yeah, there was a choice, am I going to let this define me? I own it, my whole Crucible Leadership, I talk very openly about my mistakes, I have a book coming out in the fall that goes into pretty exhaustive detail about my stupidity and naïve assumptions.
Warwick F:
And then explain how this can help others. Don’t do some of the things I did. But as you’re saying, as I started to claw my way back, find things I could do without screwing up and find things that I was gifted at, all the things you talk about, resilience, it’s making a choice, it’s all true. It’s not like there’s no pain, it’s unrealistic to say, “There’s no scar or no scab,” but I can talk about it now in a way that’s vastly less painful. I don’t know whether that’s true for you, obviously you talked openly about what you went through, but I’m sure there’s some pain but it’s probably a lot easier to talk about than it was.
Warwick F:
Because you’re using your pain for a purpose, I know that’s an oft used aphorism, but it’s true. Yeah, it all makes sense to me, obviously. Very different background, very different stories, but everybody, it’s funny, we have a lot of people on the podcast that talk about crucibles, and we’ve interviewed people like Navy SEALs that have been paralyzed and I’ll often apologize because I didn’t go through anything like what you’ve been through or some of the people, we’ve had victims of abuse and all sorts of things. And they all say this, they say it’s not a competition of crucibles, your pain is just as real to you as anybody else.
Warwick F:
And these are people who have gone through things 100 times worse than I have, and I’m astounded how they can be so generous. Anyway, you get the idea.
Taryn S:
Yeah. Well, I’d say two things about that, Warwick, if I may. One is so often we say to people without really thinking about it when some type of loss or challenge or trauma befalls, as we say to people, well, everything happens for a reason. And anyone who’s ever been on the receiving end of that has sat on their hands so that they didn’t strangle you, strangle me, when they said it. So I appreciate that, thank you everyone for your grace. And what we realized is when we say to people everything happens for a reason, that orients people to look outside of themselves for a reason.
Taryn S:
Like why was I disabled? Why did I experience this childhood abuse? Why did I have this stalker? Why did I develop PTSD? No one can answer those why questions. Except for us. So we can spend our lives searching to the answer for why, we can spend our lives searching for the reason, or we can take back that power just as we do when we recognize that we have a choice and we can say here’s how I’m going to make meaning out of what happened. So what I hear you saying is you’re in a place now where you can look on what has happened in the past and say, “Here’s how I make meaning of what happened.”
Taryn S:
And when we look instead internally to make our meaning, when we look instead to answer our own why questions, that’s when healing occurs.
Warwick F:
Do you feel, and maybe this is obvious, but certainly in my own life as I find I’m using what I went through to help others, there’s a healing component, a healing balm. It doesn’t all go away, but there’s something very healing when you’re using what you’ve been through to help others. Obviously you have your own experience, but actually unlike me you’ve done a lot of research on this, does that kind of make sense, that there is that healing component to using what you’ve been through to help others?
Taryn S:
Yeah, absolutely. I’m very hesitant to use the word failure because I actually believe that very, very, very, very, very few things that we experience in life fall under the umbrella or the actual truth of being a failure or a mistake. So my team used to come to me and say, “Oh my gosh, we’ve made a mistake,” and I’d say, “Well, have you made this mistake before?” And they would say, “Well, no we haven’t.” And I would say, “Well, in that case, it’s a lesson.” The first time it’s a lesson, the second time it’s a mistake.
Taryn S:
So, Warwick, you’re not going to take down the family business again, you learned from that. And to your point, and I know we’re going to talk about the five practices of particularly resilient people, this empirically based model that really helps us understand what are those key behaviors that allow us to capitalize and to harness our own human resilience in the moments when we face challenge, change, and complexity, and one of those elements, the fourth practice, is the practice of gratiosity, and the practice of gratiosity is twofold and we’ll talk about the other ones. We’ll start with number four.
Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely.
Taryn S:
The practice of gratiosity is a compilation of two words, gratitude and generosity, and it’s the ability to after some time instead of saying why is this happening to me? To say why is this happening for me? To stop looking for an external reason or to answer that why question and to take on, to empower ourselves to create our own meaning. And then to look on a challenge, even if we wouldn’t have chosen it, and to say I can see the good in that. I didn’t want to take down the company, I didn’t want to have a cancer diagnosis, and yet I can see the good in what has occurred.
Warwick F:
Yeah, just to give an obvious example for me, I love that notion of gratiosity. I’m basically a reserved, maybe a bit shy, kind of person that’s a reflective adviser, I’m not a Rupert Murdoch, take no prisoners executive. That is just not me, I’m not this larger than life, bomb throwing individual, I’m more nuanced. So I was trapped in a role that I was not designed for but out of a sense of duty and family history, I felt like loyalty is a big deal for me, I had to do this.
Warwick F:
Well, once that was over and I recovered from the experience, which took me a lot of the ’90s, it’s like, well, I can be whoever I want to be. So now with my writing and podcast and executive coaching, being on two nonprofit boards, I found I actually am good at being a reflective adviser and listening. Well, I wouldn’t have had that opportunity trapped in a family business. That’s my gratiosity, if you will. It’s very obvious to me, what can I be thankful for? Well, I was trapped in this gilded cocoon, if you will. Plenty of money, but I was trapped living the life of somebody five generations before.
Warwick F:
So, yeah, does that make sense? It’s empowering to have that attitude of gratiosity for what you’ve been through, at least it’s obvious for me anyway in my case, but does that make sense?
Taryn S:
Yeah, it absolutely does. I love just hearing the realtime application of here’s the practice and you were like here’s how that shows up for me, and then it’s just what you said, because the second part is the -osity, the generosity, is the ability to share those lessons, not mistakes, not failures, but to share those lessons with others as you are doing so that others may learn those lessons through you vicariously.
Warwick F:
Exactly, in our case, we talk about be who you were designed to be. Some people grow up in families where they’ve been lawyers for generations or doctors, and you can do anything you want so long as you’re a doctor like mum or dad, or a lawyer, it’s the same thing, it’s often common. So talk about some of these other principles that you have of these resilience principles, because they’re fascinating, so where would you like to go next on our tour?
Taryn S:
Yeah, well, what I’ll just say to kind of close out this dialogue, what you shared, Warwick, is a really wonderful example of this idea that your story doesn’t have to become your narrative, which I want to touch on for a moment.
Warwick F:
Please, continue. I love that. It’s hard for me to stop nodding but forgive me, please keep going.
Gary S:
I love watching this, after all these podcasts, I love watching this because it’s like you’re getting executive coached right here, Warwick, I love it.
Warwick F:
Maybe you’ll think of something, Taryn, that I disagree with, but it’s been tough so far, I’ve been wholeheartedly agreeing with everything. But keep going.
Taryn S:
Well, I love it, I love that we’re on the same wavelength, it’s a lot of fun. And one of the things that I share in the context of my work is this idea that our story is what happened to us. It’s the thin description of our life. My mother left me when I was a child, people didn’t show up for me, we never had enough food, so there’s a sense of feeling financially or with regard to food feeling insecure. Those are stories. Those are things that happened. And what I’ve realized over time is that the danger isn’t so much in what happens to us. It’s how we incorporate those experiences into our narrative.
Taryn S:
And our narrative is our identity, our narrative is our self worth. So I could have said I had this stalker, I developed PTSD, and therefore the value that I believe I can bring to the world has been diminished because I’ve translated my story into becoming a narrative about my identity and who I am. And so what I love about what you’re saying is that we differentiate between our story, what happened to us, and then what we tell ourselves about what that means in terms of our identity.
Warwick F:
Because what it can mean is whether it was your fault or not your fault, you can say, well, because of what happened, therefore I have no value and I have no worth. Which it’s hard for me to understand, failure is one thing, I get why somebody could think that, but when it’s not your fault at all, and you’ve researched this which I haven’t, somehow, no matter whether it’s your fault or not your fault, it can lead to a tremendous sense of lack of self worth, lack of self respect, which how do you achieve anything? How do you do anything? So that is just so sad.
Warwick F:
But by being able to switch that narrative story, Gary, one of the things you end every podcast with is, why don’t you just tell Taryn in terms of the crucible’s not the end of your story, because it’s unbelievable, it’s just exactly what you’re talking about, but share that, Gary.
Gary S:
Yeah, what we try to encourage listeners with at the end of every episode is that they’re crucibles, those trials, tragedies, traumas, those things that have gone wrong, failure and setback, they aren’t the end of their story. In fact, we say, they can be the beginning of a new story, a better story, if you learn the lessons of them as you’ve talked about, Taryn. If you learn the lessons of those things, it can be a better story because where it takes you as you’ve learned those lessons is to a new life which at Crucible Leadership we define as a life of significance.
Warwick F:
And that basically means a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. Whatever that means for you, everybody’s life of significance will be different. But as you hear that, that’s in part what you’re talking about, about changing the narrative, using the narrative for good. So just as you’re saying it it’s like, wow. Jaws dropping again here, so, amazing.
Taryn S:
Yeah, right. And this notion that you bring up, Warwick, you used the word fault, whose fault is it, was it my fault. Akin to that is this idea of responsibility. And what I’ve seen over time and being a marriage and family therapist and having worked with a variety of people that have had neurological injuries, spinal cord injuries, brain injuries as the result of car accidents and falls, this idea of responsibility or who is at fault or am I at fault or who’s at fault, that’s a tremendously important inflection point in our healing.
Taryn S:
It’s tremendously important that we get this notion of responsibility right. And a dear friend of mine and a mentor, Richard Pimentel, who was responsible for the American With Disabilities Act and there’s a wonderful movie that was made about him by a dear friend of mine, Steven Sawalich, called The Music Within. And Richard Pimentel talks about this idea of responsibility, and he helpfully breaks it into two components, response and ability. And in the moment when something happens, what is our ability to respond?
Taryn S:
And when we think about all of these things like you shared, Gary, these crucible moments, the challenge, the change, the complexity, the loss, the grief, the unfairness. Really accurately getting to a place where we are assigning responsibility is key. It’s key that we don’t blame everybody else and not figure out what percentage of that is our own, because when we blame everybody else it means the control for our healing and our maturation is also outside of ourselves.
Taryn S:
And conversely, when we take on too much of that responsibility, if you’re a victim of being targeted or a stalker or you’ve been raped or abused in some way and you think, “That was my fault,” we need to look accurately at, in fact, what was your ability to respond? And really get that right as part of the healing process.
Warwick F:
I think that’s so true. Do you think, and I want to make sure we cover all these aspects, these five-
Gary S:
Yeah, we have four more to go. We have four more to go.
Warwick F:
Five practices, there is one thing I’d be curious about is the whole aspect of forgiveness. Certainly for me, part of it was forgiving myself, I was young, 26, young, naïve. I had no intention to cause pain to anybody and there was thousands of people in the company. The company went on, but still, part of it is forgiving others but part of it is forgiving yourself. Is that part of the component of being able to move on from a challenging experience, that whole assigning responsibility and I’ve done a lot of that internal work of how much was my fault, which a fair amount, not all, accepting. But talk about forgiveness and how that relates to the whole responsibility deal.
Taryn S:
Yeah, forgiveness is a tremendously important element. So once we have accurately assigned responsibility and that can take some time and, PS, it’s always good if we have some skin in the game relative to responsibility. We shouldn’t take none of it and we shouldn’t take all of it. But accurately assigning that responsibility, I love that you’re talking about forgiveness. Forgiveness oftentimes, for many people, not for everyone, but comes from you talked about, Warwick, being a man of faith, it often comes from having a spiritual or a religious practice and is often informed by those experiences.
Taryn S:
And for me, there’s really three important things that we need to understand about forgiveness. The first one is forgiveness is for no one else but ourselves. And so often people say, “Well, I’m not going to forgive that, they don’t deserve that forgiveness.” Maybe they don’t, but fortunately it’s actually not for them. The forgiveness is for us.
Warwick F:
That’s the scary thing is we say this too, and I don’t claim that everything you say we say because we’re not that smart, but the notion that why is forgiveness important? Because you’re worth it.
Taryn S:
Yeah, right.
Warwick F:
And they win if you’re bitter. For you to get out of that prison of bitterness, you’re worth forgiving that other person or yourself, because then the power is removed so, please continue because I can’t help but agree.
Taryn S:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah, so the first component to understand about forgiveness is it’s for you. It’s not for anyone else but you. The second thing to understand about forgiveness is that forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation.
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Taryn S:
So when we forgive someone, that’s a choice, that’s a decision that we make. It’s not the same as continuing that relationship, going back to that relationship, continuing to be a part of whatever is happening.
Warwick F:
Nor is it the same as accountability.
Taryn S:
Right.
Warwick F:
There is still consequences, sometimes legal consequence, it doesn’t mean that we’re lessening accountability or responsibility.
Taryn S:
Right, exactly.
Warwick F:
And people confuse those two things, right?
Taryn S:
Exactly. So if you’re someone who’s been in an abusive relationship, you can forgive that person and you don’t need to reconcile with them.
Warwick F:
Sure.
Taryn S:
Forgiveness is not reconciliation, that’s two. The third part of forgiveness is oftentimes it takes time and it takes many times for us to say, “I forgive you, I forgive myself.” Oftentimes we are the hardest people to forgive, forgiveness of self can be the most difficult forgiveness. And for me coming from a Christian faith background, it says in the Bible, I think one of the disciples or someone said to Jesus, they said, “Well, how many times do we forgive that person?” And Jesus says, “Seven times 77 times.”
Warwick F:
Which is a biblical way of saying forever, unlimited.
Gary S:
Forever.
Warwick F:
Is basically what it’s saying.
Taryn S:
That’s right.
Warwick F:
It’s a metaphor, yeah, exactly.
Taryn S:
It doesn’t mean that we reconcile and we allow someone to continue to perpetrate something against us, but seven times 77, that gets us into the 400s
Warwick F:
That’s a lot.
Taryn S:
And what I’ve found with the experience with a stalker or I was in an abusive relationship where I was nearly strangled to death, and I have probably had to say 300 times, not directly to that person but in my mind, I forgive you. I forgive you, I’m letting this go, I forgive you. So the third part is oftentimes we can be the hardest ones to forgive and don’t be fooled, forgiveness is not once and for all. That resentment, that anger, that lack of forgiveness, it can sneak back in and it can take 400 times until we really let that go.
Warwick F:
And we’ll move on here in a millisecond, but this forgiveness is so important. I often think forgiveness is a bit like weeding, you know? So, weeds will crop up and I have unfortunately had a lot of practice at this both with myself and some other folks, family, advisers. Something will come up and sometimes we have people in our lives who as soon as you’ve caught up with the last thing they’ve done, they do something else, it’s like, hey, I’m trying to catch up, can you just give me a moment before you lob the next thing that I’m going to be angry about.
Warwick F:
But when I find these things, these little weeds crop up, I say, okay, I’m not going to go there. I nip it in the bud. So it is like weeding, you cannot let it grow and flourish, you’ve just got to get on it, if that makes sense. So talk a bit about some of the other elements, because it’s vulnerability, productive perseverance, connection and I think the last one is possibility. Talk about why those are all important as we try to be resilient people.
Gary S:
And also I’ll add something to layer on top, how they’re all connected, because you started at four, so how do they all connect, those four?
Taryn S:
Yeah, so the great thing is this is an empirically based model, so when we talk about the five practices of particularly resilient people, it’s based on having interviewed hundreds of people and collected thousands of pieces of data where I asked people to think about a time when they faced a significant challenge and what did they do? What actions did they take in those moments to effectively address that challenge? And after coding that variety of data, what that gave birth to or what that gave rise to was the five practices of particularly resilient people.
Taryn S:
So first and foremost, to appreciate that this is an evidence based or an empirically based model is really key. Because there’s lots of things out there that are like, the five P’s of resilience and productivity and positivity. I like alliteration as much as the next person, maybe even a little more, being a writer, maybe you too Warwick.
Warwick F:
Indeed.
Gary S:
Indeed.
Taryn S:
But the empirical base is important, so the first practice that emerged which is really a foundational practice of resilience is the practice of vulnerability. And I thought, when that emerged, as someone who has survived trauma, I spent my whole life trying to be invulnerable. I was over programmed to be invulnerable, to not show emotion, to not respond, because of needing to be in those crucible moments with a stalker where I needed to think quickly to keep myself safe.
Warwick F:
And probably not to talk about some of these experiences, most people who have gone through trauma, they won’t talk about it. They’re not going to be vulnerable about it.
Taryn S:
Yeah, that’s the second part. The first part is, so what is vulnerability in the first place? I’m glad you asked. So, vulnerability is allowing our inside self, our thoughts, feelings, experiences, to the greatest extent possible to match our outside self. In psychology we would call this congruence. That what we’re feeling and experiencing, we allow ourselves to show that to the world and I think for the vast majority of us, reaching congruence or 100% congruence, our internal life is being lived on the outside, that’s a lifelong process, that’s a life long pursuit of vulnerability.
Warwick F:
And it’s rare.
Taryn S:
It’s rare.
Warwick F:
Because most of us put on a mask, again, this is probably getting boring for the listeners, that’s one of my highest values of trying to make sure that who I am on the outside is who I am on the inside. It’s an extremely high value of mine and I find as you share with people, I’m blessed, I did my undergrad at Oxford and did an MBA at Harvard Business School, I was embarrassed to go to Harvard Business School reunion because people would say, “Look what you’ve done, you’ve failed spectacularly,” I mean, in business, this is not cool.
Warwick F:
But you go to these things and people aren’t treating you like a leper. A lot of people have had business failures who have been in business school, and when they treat you like you’re a human being, it’s like, really? They’re not saying, “Unclean,” like in the Bible, “Leave the town.” It’s like, wow, because we have this notion in our head that if people really know how stupid I am or what I’ve been through, that nobody will want to be with us, we’ll be like a leper, right?
Taryn S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
And when that story is broken, it’s another step of healing, does that kind of make sense?
Taryn S:
It absolutely does. The first thing is you had a business lesson, you didn’t have a business failure, if you took down the company twice then that would be failure or a mistake. But you learned from the first time, you’re brilliant.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I haven’t done any failed two billion dollar takeovers since, so there you go, I learned my lesson.
Warwick F:
So that’s awesome.
Taryn S:
Onward and upward my friend.
Warwick F:
Indeed, okay, that leads to productive perseverance. What is that? That’s a fascinating phrase.
Taryn S:
Yeah, exactly. Well, we’re short on time so I’ll just say one more thing about vulnerability which is precisely what you said, Warwick, which Brené Brown has talked about vulnerability and its role in what she calls living a wholehearted life. Vulnerability also showed up as a foundational practice of resilience, and so I asked myself just that question which you were alluding to which is if vulnerability seems to be so important in Brené’s work of living a wholehearted life and now being a foundational element of resilience, why aren’t we all running around living these fabulously vulnerable lives?
Taryn S:
What gives? And it’s this idea of the vulnerability bias, or exactly the sort of story that we tell ourselves in our heads which is if people really knew, if people really knew this part of me that’s on the inside, that I don’t want to show on the outside, three things would happen. I call it the three Ls that block our vulnerability. People wouldn’t like us, they wouldn’t love us, and they might leave.
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Taryn S:
And when you threaten people with ostracism, what that’s shown is the parts of the brain that are associated with physical pain light up. And we don’t want to experience even the threat or the fear of that physical pain, so better not to be vulnerable and better to stay quiet.
Warwick F:
Right, because if they reject my mask, that’s one thing, if they reject the real me, infinitely worse.
Taryn S:
That’s right.
Warwick F:
So many if not most don’t want to take that risk, hence the world we live in, whether it’s politicians or Hollywood or wherever, it’s a sea of masks. So what would you like to talk about just in the closing minutes we have just about some of the other aspects of these wonderful principles of resilience?
Taryn S:
Yeah, well, I’ll give you a quick overview of the last three and then if we ever want to talk more about them we absolutely can. So the second principle, second practice of particularly resilient people, is the practice of productive perseverance. Remember when I told you I liked alliteration? So it’s this idea of knowing when to maintain the mission despite challenge and that’s very much aligned with Angela Duckworth’s work on grit.
Gary S:
Great book.
Taryn S:
Great book and it’s more than that, because grit is not synonymous with resilience. Grit is a fractional component of resilience, but it’s not the whole story. So knowing when to maintain the mission despite challenge, and recognizing that in the face of a significantly changing environment or a disruptive environment, that we need to pivot and go in a new direction. And this is very much an art and a science, because if you want to become a Navy SEAL or graduate from the Naval Academy, those sort of markers are well defined. And it’s good to put your head down and to be gritty in those situations.
Taryn S:
But in an environment relative to global pandemic COVID-19, where things are shifting and changing, we also must pick our heads up and look at how the environment is shifting and changing so that we can continually evaluate if the path that we’re on is the right one lest we become a Kodak or a Blockbuster or a BlackBerry.
Warwick F:
Hence productive perseverance. Awesome phrase. So how does that lead to connection?
Taryn S:
Well, connection in the midst of this pandemic is really the new currency, we’re all wondering how do we connect with a remote distributed workforce, with our elderly parents, with our grandparents, I held a 70th Zoom birthday party for my mom back in December, and connection’s always been important in terms of resilience and it’s no less important now and again, inherent within each of these practices is a paradox. And connection seems simple because it’s twofold, it’s the connection to ourselves, trusting our gut, knowing our value, listening to the still, small voice within, cultivating and listening to our intuition on the one hand.
Taryn S:
And then on the other hand cultivating and developing relationships externally with our family and friends and community. And that’s all well and good until those two things are at odds.
Warwick F:
Right.
Taryn S:
So that’s connection. We talked about gratiosity, gratitude plus sharing generosity and the last is the practice of possibility, it’s the practice of at its core being able to prioritize or privilege progress over perfection. And the paradox therein of the practice of possibility is being able to navigate the tension between risk and opportunity. In these moments, in order to be resilient, we must hold both risk and opportunity, hold both danger and possibility and allow both to be true.
Warwick F:
But there’s something about possibility in forward movement that I know in economics there’s this fundamental law of business is you’re either growing or you’re declining. If you’re status quo, then you’re about to decline, it’s one of these ironclad business laws. And I feel like maybe it’s true in life too perhaps that if you have a possibility outlook of how can I grow, how can I improve, how can I use what I’m going through to help others as you’re looking forward to possibility, then healing can continue.
Warwick F:
If you start trying to hunker down and not move forward, then I don’t know, do you feel like life’s a bit like that too?
Taryn S:
Absolutely. Yeah, I think if we’re not evolving, if we’re standing still we’re probably devolving, right?
Gary S:
I’ve been in the communications business long enough to know that’s a good place to land the plane, what you just said. That is a bow on top of the package to mix my metaphors, Taryn, I would be totally, totally, completely lacking in my job as the cohost of the show if I did not give you the chance before we go to let our listeners know how they can find out more about you, specifically on this thing called the internet.
Taryn S:
Yes, the internet, the internets.
Gary S:
Yes.
Taryn S:
We’ll invite you take a look at the show notes for all the various and nuanced places to catch up with me. Two great places to spend some time, one is on our Instagram page, Dr. Taryn Marie, we’ve got a wonderful resilience movement happening there and basically daily kind of updates and resilience motivations. So that’s really, really fun. And the second part is there’s lots of free resources, articles, podcast recordings, those types of things on our website which is resilience-leadership.com. We’d love to see you there.
Warwick F:
Well, thank you so much, Taryn, for being here. It’s so inspiring just all your work on resilience, and yeah, I’m sorry I just couldn’t help but agree with everything you’re saying. I’m just looking at one of your quotes, I think from Robert Ingersoll on connection, we rise by lifting others. It’s just so true, some of these things, they may seem trite like pain for purpose, but as we try to understand what happened, yes, look at responsibility, vulnerability, but as we try and use those to help others, there is a healing component.
Warwick F:
It kind of gives you a reason to get out of bed every morning, how can I use my pain in a forward looking way to help others, and so thank you for the work that you do and all the research and just being vulnerable yourself. Because that helps people relate to you. If you’re able to share something very personal, it says, well, if Taryn can do that, maybe it’s okay if I do that. So the research is critical, but so is showing up as a whole person in every sense of the word whole, if that makes sense. It really does help. The research and being vulnerable, the two together, is a powerful combination.
Warwick F:
So thank you so much for everything you do and thanks for being on the podcast, we very much appreciate it.
Taryn S:
Thank you so much, such an honor to be here.
Gary S:
Thank you. Well, that certainly was a different kind of discussion than we’ve had before, based, again as we said earlier, on experiential crucibles but then really deep research about the power of resilience and if you enjoyed what you heard here on the show today, listener, Warwick and I have a little favor to ask you and that is that you would just click like on the podcast app on which you’re listening, share this with some friends, put it on social media, so that we can get the word out about the show because the more people know about the show, the more we can get guests, great guests, like Dr. Taryn Marie.
Gary S:
And until the next time we’re together, we ask you to remember this, which is sort of the motto of Crucible Leadership when you get right down to it, and that is that your crucible experiences are indeed painful. No one is doubting that. The conversation with Dr. Taryn Marie hit on that, it’s very real, that pain is legitimate. What you’re feeling is legitimate. But what you’re feeling is not the end of your story. You can, as discussed on the show today, learn the lessons, learn what is meant to be taught to you through your experiences, apply those lessons to your life.
Gary S:
And when you do that, we have discovered that it is by far not the end of your story. It is in fact the beginning of a new chapter in your story, and a new chapter that can be the most fulfilling one yet. Why is that? Because the direction it will take you as we heard in this conversation today and as we’ve heard in previous conversations, the direction it will take you when you learn the lessons of your crucible and apply them is the most fulfilling direction of your life because what it leads to in the end is a life of significance.
Gregory Robinson’s crucibles piled up in his youth: raised without a father, kicked out of the house at 16, eking out a day-to-day existence swiping soap from restaurants to wash up and making ends meet hustling pool while flopping with other boys from hardscrabble backgrounds. But his life began to turn around after a stint in juvenile detention set him on a path to get a job, join the military and build the responsibility and resilience that has led him to help others employ the principles that have made him The Unbreakable Man. The key, he says, is to never let defeat defeat you.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Gregory Robinson:
I rode the bus home with them. That was my first party ever. So we went to the white section of town that us as kids had heard stories about. That’s just how it was. So we all got off the bus and all my friends disappeared. And so here I am, excuse my jokes, but it’s how I am. I was in no black man’s land.
Gregory Robinson:
So I’m here and pickup trucks and rebel flags and the whole shebang, had no idea how to get home. So I pushed away my panic. And I remembered my landmarks from taking the bus from school to home and vice versa. So I took all the main roads and expressway and I walked home. I was supposed to be home by 6:00. I got home by 6:30. So I look back on it now, so that was a three and a half-hour walk across the City of Tampa.
Gregory Robinson:
So I get home and my aunt’s at the door and she said, “Go back where you come from,” slammed the door in my face and that was the beginning of me being on my own. So I tried to go to school for a while, high school and I kept myself clean through my grandmother’s old house that I still had a key to. So I’d wash up in the sink and things of that nature. We called it a sink bath as kids.
Gregory Robinson:
I’d read by candlelight and still do my schoolwork plus try to maintain myself and tried to forage for food. But then it comes to a point to where you’re trying to survive and go to school. You can’t do both at the same time.
Gary Schneeberger:
Where do you begin moving beyond a crucible like that? 16 years old, homeless, family relationships strained, unable to envision a future for yourself because your circumstances make it difficult to envision dinner or a shower for yourself.
Gary Schneeberger:
Hi. I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. Today’s guest, Gregory Robinson, did find a way to craft a life of significance from the ashes of that experience and other crucibles that knocked him off his feet in the years that followed from juvenile detention to the horrors of war that left him with PTSD.
Gary Schneeberger:
As he tells Warwick, his road back was paved with refusing to let defeat, defeat him and turning to God when there was nowhere else for him to turn. It’s a message and a hope he shares with men today through his podcast, The Unbreakable Man, which he started to help others who have been through pain like he has, find joy.
Warwick Fairfax:
Wow Greg. Thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it and look forward to hearing about your story. You’re in the Chicago area?
Gregory Robinson:
Yes, sir.
Gary Schneeberger:
Midwest. Midwest rules.
Warwick Fairfax:
My wife has a lot of family in the Chicago area. We actually lived there at one point before we moved to Maryland. So yeah, I just wanted before we get into all of your story, just to hear a little bit about your background and growing up in Tampa. It wasn’t the easiest one. You had some challenges. Talk about some of your early childhood experiences and crucibles and a bit about your parents and just about the early story.
Gregory Robinson:
Early stories. okay. Obviously, as you said before, I’m from Tampa, Florida. That’s my hometown, home of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, the world champions. I just had to get a plug in there.
Warwick Fairfax:
How do you decide who to cheer for, the Buccaneers or the Bears? How do you decide?
Gregory Robinson:
I lived here long enough to where I root for them both. We used to have, my wife and I had a joke. When they were in the same conference and they played together, we would draw an imaginary line down the house. But no, growing up in Tampa was very tough. My hometown, obviously I loved it, in spite of all the things that went on during my life.
Gregory Robinson:
I come from an alcoholic family. My mother and father were very … They grew up in the segregated South and were very old-fashioned the way people did business. The family story goes that my mother became pregnant in high school during her senior year and my father was from the other side of town, the other side of the tracks, but within the black community. My father’s parents already had him slotted to marry someone else who was from his part of town. So they didn’t marry, but the family agreed to pay a stipend to my mother’s family to take care of me.
Gregory Robinson:
That was the agreement. I didn’t learn this until many, many, many years later the whole story, how that all went about. But one of the things that I can say about my story, at least in that aspect, is I was 15 years old, going on 16, two weeks from my 16th birthday and I was at a little corner store not far from my house. And the local beer truck driver walks into the store and he walks up to me and he says, “Are you Greg Robinson?” I’m like, “Yeah. Who are you?” I won’t tell you what I said because I was 16 years old.
Gary Schneeberger:
We can imagine.
Gregory Robinson:
Right. And he says, “I’m your father.” This isn’t a Star Wars tie-in, but I looked at the store owner who was like family, as well, because it was a neighborhood place and I asked him and he said, “Yeah. Yeah, Greg, that’s your dad.” So the realization hit me that this man who I had seen for as long as I can remember, who had a beer route in my neighborhood was my father. And so my first football game that I went to was two weeks later, went to see the Tampa Bay Buccaneers with my dad. You can’t make this stuff up.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right. That must have been surreal. You’re 16 years old and you find out who your father was, even though you’d seen him around the neighborhood. Do you ever have a conversation with him because when you’re young, you don’t get a lot of stuff. What’s up with somehow your family felt like my mom wasn’t good enough for you? It’s hard to get your head around. I can’t think of a diplomatic way to say this. He is driving a beer truck. It’s not like okay, so what makes you better than my mom’s side? All those thoughts, as a 16-year-old must be going, “I don’t get this.”
Gregory Robinson:
You’re right. It was surreal, but I learned a lot about my dad over time. He was a Vietnam vet. So not long after I was born, he got drafted. He left college to go to the Army. He was Army Airborne. He came back home, had a lot of issues from PTSD. At that time, they called it battle fatigue and combat stress, all the different names they’d come up with over the decades.
Gregory Robinson:
And I had met him once or twice, but I was too young to remember what he looked like. So as the family story goes, they told me much later, when he came back from Vietnam and he was married obviously, he took a job with Budweiser and purposely took a route that was in my neighborhood so he could watch me grow up. So with that said, I learned to have a lot of respect for him because he to me, in my eyes, in spite of all the bad things that happened, he was a man of great integrity and he was honorable in what he did.
Gregory Robinson:
He later ended up divorcing the first wife, but he and my mother never got together. The drinking got the better of her and so what I developed over time in my late 20s/early 30s was compassion for them both because then I understood why my mother was the way she was when I was younger. But when you’re growing up in a hard situation, for lack of better words, you know all the hole-in-the-walls. You guys know what a hole-in-the-wall is, …joints little side hustle stand that people would sell liquor out of their garages as a makeshift bar and that becomes your normal.
Gregory Robinson:
Then you have brothers and sisters like I did. I was the oldest, so I took up the mantle of being a surrogate father and my mother wasn’t around and then defending them against, “Mr. So-and-so” or Mr. This, boyfriends and things of that nature. So I was the one who took my brothers and sisters to school, taught them how to fight, fend off the bullies and who cooked and made sure they were clean and all those things for many years.
Gregory Robinson:
And then as I went on, I was given over to my grandmother as my guardian when I was about 8 or 9 years old roughly I think it was and my mother asked my grandmother to keep me until she came back. Well she never came back, but I would see her on and off. So yeah, life was tough.
Gregory Robinson:
But I made it. I did fairly well in school. I was very artistic, a very good illustrator. My escape was books. I was an avid reader, loved science fantasy, science fiction and nonfiction and history and learning about cultures and different places. And so what that allowed for me, looking back in hindsight is to develop a broad mind in spite of my situation and where I was at. So you had to deal with all the other stuff.
Gary Schneeberger:
I know that Warwick’s going to ask some more detailed questions about much of what you’ve just described because you’ve sketched in broad brush strokes what you went through. But one thing I always like to do and it doesn’t happen all the time on the show, but when it does, I want to point it out for listeners, especially listeners who aren’t viewing it on video, as we’re seeing it right now as we’re talking to you.
Gary Schneeberger:
But those things that you just described, Greg, so many times as you were describing very traumatic things that happened to you, you smiled. You have the perspective now as an adult who’s processed those things. You smiled. And I just point that out to the listeners so that they can know.
Gary Schneeberger:
We talked at the outset about we are at Beyond the Crucible, we try to be in the hope business and offering hope to people. And as people are struggling right now listening to this in their own crucibles which probably are wildly different than yours and wildly different than Warwick’s, there’s something beautiful about the fact that as you tell those stories, there’s a smile on your face because you’re on the other side of them and that smile is available to all of us if we process the lessons of our crucibles and we do the things that you’ve done like forgive and learn and move on.
Gary Schneeberger:
So I just wanted to point that out in case listeners didn’t hear it in his voice. Greg right now, he is smiling. He’s got a beautiful smile. He is smiling right now even as he talks about those things. I know there’s more to talk about as we unpack more of those details, but I wanted to get that point across because that’s what we’re hoping for, to encourage people there is hope on the other side of your crucible.
Warwick Fairfax:
That’s well-said, I just, to your point Gary, as Greg is talking, you sense this sense of peace, sense of calm, sense of forgiveness. I’m sure we’ll get into more later the phrase the peace the passes understanding comes to mind. So just to flesh a bit more of this out. Obviously, I’ve got to imagine it was very tough for your mother being rejected by your dad’s family and it probably contributed to some of her challenges. Did you feel like maybe this is an obvious question, but she was never the same after that, after feeling rejected? That might have been not the sole cause of her issues, but was that a big part of it?
Gregory Robinson:
I would definitely say so. But at the time, like I said, I was young and it took me many years to come to grips and get past my own anger and other things that I had developed over time by feeling rejected myself. But I will tell you this story. I’m going to jump for probably about 15 years or so, but I think it’s really relevant. I left and went into the military after I went to Job Corps at around 18 or so. So I was gone for more or less about eight years.
Gregory Robinson:
I had developed on my own. I was always my own man. There was no one to tell me what I could and couldn’t do, besides the military, of course. But there was no mom or dad to say no, you should go here son or do this. And I was visiting home one particular time right before my dad had passed away. I was probably about 31, I think, at the time. And we were talking, he and I and my uncle. I should point this out. I come from a family of veterans.
Gregory Robinson:
So my dad was Army Airborne in Vietnam. My uncle Johnny, my dad’s brother, was Airborne Ranger, who was the younger of the two and he followed my dad to Vietnam. And then there’s me who is another veteran and a combat veteran who was in the Navy, a corpsman and attached to the Marine Corps infantry. So we’re all together and we’re talking and I’m about to go away again for the weekend. I’d visit every other weekend during the month.
Gregory Robinson:
My dad, he says, “Hey son?” I said, “Yes sir, Pops.” He says, “I love you, son.” And I turned around and I looked at him because he was very old-fashioned. I’m sure you guys know what I mean. I went up to him and I hugged him and my uncle hugged us, too. And I said, “I love you, too, Dad.” And so I stopped, I said, “Dad, you know what?” I said, “You know I’ve got a place up in Northern Florida and how about I get you to come on up for Christmas this year?” It would have been our first Christmas together.
Gregory Robinson:
And I said, “By the way, I could bring Mom up, too.” And so he just looked at me. He smiled and he giggled because he knew exactly what I was up to. But it was worthwhile to see the smile on his face and the understanding because she was his long lost love and vice versa. So I was hoping to make some mending in the process, but he passed away before it could all transpire.
Warwick Fairfax:
That’s so sad. As you’re talking, there’s a lot of things you could be bitter about, about what happened to your mother after that, your dad’s family. When you’re a young guy like your dad, it’s tough to buck your whole family and they’re telling you what to do. It’s not easy as a young person, but it’s just so sad. You can’t help but think what might have been if people had left him alone. Maybe they wouldn’t have made it, but maybe they would have made it. Do you find yourself in the what ifs? What would have happened if people kept messing around?
Gregory Robinson:
Actually not anymore. Despite how hard it may have been, I’m very thankful, as odd as it may sound, that I went through all the things that I went through because I believe it helped to mold me into making me the man that I am today, to have the strength to be able before you and Gary and talk about things like this and to be able to look back introspectively and say, “Well hey, you know, despite everything that has happened in my life, I’m still here.”
Gregory Robinson:
And I’m happy and I say that genuinely. I’m pretty much at peace. We all still have our things that we go through, but overall, I’m happy. I’ve got a great wife. I’ve got great kids. I absolutely love what I do and despite me being reticent about even writing a book initially and the only reason I wrote the book is people had talked to me about it for years, I was actually inspired by God to write the book.
Gregory Robinson:
He said, “Here. You need to write this, son.” And I was like, “Well …” And He said, “No. You need to write it.” So what do the scriptures say? Obedience is better than sacrifice. So I did…
Warwick Fairfax:
It’s like … I haven’t been in the military, but I imagine when your superior in the military says, “Greg, you need to do this,” you go, “Yes, sir,” or “Yes ma’am.” Not a whole lot of debate, right? Well it’s similar with God right? If God tells you to do something else, it’s yes, sir. Let’s go. Right?
Warwick Fairfax:
But just before we get to what you’re doing now and some of your experience as a Navy Corpsman, I want to understand after things weren’t working too well at home with your mom, you spent some time with your grandmother. But at age 16, it sounds like there was a time where …
Gregory Robinson:
Approximately about 8 or 9 until I was right at 16 years old and this goes into talking about racism to a point and how the Old South was because I had got invited to … Because I was the first one in my family to go to integrated schools. So my grandmothers on both sides were just like in the movie that made a few years ago that came out. That was my grandmothers on both sides.
Gregory Robinson:
And I think a side note that’s very important in regard to that, remember my grandmother and my father on my mother’s side worked for an old Jewish family on the other side of town around Bayshore Boulevard in Tampa. That’s just how it was. And when she would work when I was younger, she would take me to another house sometimes during the summertime when I was out of school and I’d play with their son, who became a friend of mine.
Gregory Robinson:
I got to be about 10 years old or so and started learning some things and understanding because you’ve got to remember, I grew up in the ’70s and ’80s. And so this was at the end point somewhat of the civil rights movement. And my grandmother stopped, I think it was Christmas Eve or a couple of days before Christmas and we picked up all these toys and these clothes and they were all hand-me-downs. And I was at the age where I had a little knowledge.
Gregory Robinson:
And I looked at everything and I told my grandmother, I said, “I don’t want these little white boys’ hand-me-down things.” And she turned around and she looked at me and she slapped me across the face. And she had tears in her eyes and she said, “Don’t you ever say anything like that again because you have no idea.” And that’s just how she left it.
Gregory Robinson:
And as I got much older, I really understood where she was coming from because she was like, “These people have a good heart. They’re doing something for me or for you because they love me and vice versa. And here you have the audacity to be ungrateful.” I’m using my own words in that sentence. But that’s really what it come down to and we had the nerve to be arrogant when you don’t understand the full concept of what’s going on here. And so I took that as a big lesson and I never forgot it. That’s the kind of woman that she was.
Gregory Robinson:
So the whole family was blue collar. My other uncle was a high school dropout. He started working construction at the age of 15 and built his own business and was a contractor by the age of 30. So yeah, a lot of hard times, but a lot of hard lessons, too, at the same time.
Warwick Fairfax:
The couple years before you get into the Job Corps and Navy maybe somewhere around 18, from 16-18, those were some of the toughest years.
Gregory Robinson:
Yeah. I would say 16-18 were the toughest. It was like building a pyramid. You start with a very strong foundation, just horrid things and you pinnacle out to a point. During that time, I was on my own. I dropped out of school because I got kicked out of the house. I’m going back to my previous story. Some friends of mine from school, I rode the bus home with them. That was my first party ever. So we went to the white section of town that us as kids had heard stories about… That’s just how it was.
Gregory Robinson:
So we all got off the bus and all my friends disappeared. And so here I am and excuse my jokes, but it’s how I am. I was in no black man’s land.
Gregory Robinson:
So I’m here and a pickup truck, rebel flags and the whole shebang, had no idea how to get home. So I pushed away my panic. And I remembered my landmarks from taking the bus from school to home and vice versa. So I took all the main roads and expressway and I walked home. I was supposed to be home by 6:00. I got home by 6:30. So I look back on it now, so that was a three and a half-hour walk across the City of Tampa.
Gregory Robinson:
So I get home and my aunt’s at the door and she said, “Go back where you come from,” slammed the door in my face and that was the beginning of me being on my own. So I tried to go to school for a while, high school and I kept myself clean through my grandmother’s old house that I still had a key to. So I’d wash up in the sink and things of that nature. We called it a sink bath as kids.
Gregory Robinson:
I’d read by candlelight and still do my schoolwork plus try to maintain myself and tried to forage for food. But then it comes to a point to where you’re trying to survive and go to school. You can’t do both at the same time, at least during my timeframe. It’s not like now where you have all sorts of programs and agencies that’ll reach out to help. You’re just a young kid and you’re just out there.
Gregory Robinson:
So I got involved with a family of con men who took me in, so at least I had a semi roof over my head. And I hustled pool and just all sorts of things I did just to make ends meet. So what I learned in my salvation about things like that, you have to meet a person at their need. You can’t just come to them with a bible and talk about Jesus loves you and everything will be fine, when he’s like, “Right now, I’m hungry,” or “right now, I need a warm bed,” or “right now, I need a drink of water,” or “right now, I need three bucks to get downtown so I can get to the food pantry, so can catch the bus.”
Gregory Robinson:
And so that’s where I was at. So my saving grace during that timeframe after being on the streets for almost two years is I got arrested by a store detective in a store called Zayre’s that doesn’t even exist anymore.
Gary Schneeberger:
I remember Zayre’s. Yeah.
Gregory Robinson:
Yeah. I stole a half T-shirt of the Cincinnati Reds sports team. Don’t even like the Cincinnati Reds, but I needed a clean shirt. So the detective arrested me and I had some social security card that I found on the street someplace that I would use as my alias. That’s just how it was. So he pulls up the guy’s records and he had a rap sheet as long as both of my arms combined. He says, “Are you sure you’re this guy?” “No. No. No.”
Gregory Robinson:
So they actually sent me, put me in juvenile detention. I went back to school while I was in juvey and mind you at that time because the situation was I had a warm place to sleep, roof over my head, I had three square meals a day and I was going to school for free. So when I talk about meeting the need of people, those are the kind of things that I like to talk about.
Gregory Robinson:
So while I was in juvey from that point, I heard about Job Corps on the radio and once I got out, they let me out because they found my mother, I took a bike that I had acquired and I found a local Job Corps office.
Gary Schneeberger:
For those who aren’t watching on YouTube, Greg just did the air quotes with his hands when he said acquired. Just so you know.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yes.
Gregory Robinson:
And I rode the bike down to the Job Corps office, through the phone book, which I know kids nowadays couldn’t do that. And so I went and filled out an application by hand. I had to have it signed by one of my parents, so I took it to my mother. She refused to sign it, so I forged her signature and I dropped my application in the mail. So about a month later or so I think it was, I got a one-way ticket on Trailways, which doesn’t exist anymore either. I’m telling my age. I don’t care. I left for Job Corps five days before my 18th birthday.
Warwick Fairfax:
Wow. So from what I understand, Greg, that then led you to joining the military to be a Navy Medical Corpsman.
Gregory Robinson:
Yes, sir. It’s actually a hospital corpsman. Veterans will forgive you because they understand that you don’t know.
Warwick Fairfax:
Sorry. It sounds like that began a change in the direction of your life it seems, just being in the military. So just talk about that. It wasn’t easy. You were deployed in some pretty dangerous places from what I understand.
Gregory Robinson:
Oh, yes sir.
Warwick Fairfax:
So just talk about that experience. But it sounds like that was the beginning of a turning point.
Gregory Robinson:
It was very much so. Basically, it was really easy in a sense for me because you had already been out on your own for years and for lack of better words, no offense to anyone, but you weren’t a momma’s boy. You weren’t coming from home. But my first tour overseas was actually in a little small country on the West Coast of Africa, funded by ex-patriot American slaves and then their sister country is Senegal, which is their British counterpart.
Warwick Fairfax:
The first was Liberia?
Gregory Robinson:
Liberia, yes sir.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay. Yeah.
Gregory Robinson:
And so we were there from August 1990 until New Year’s Day 1991 and we were actually relieved. The Marine Corps anti-terrorist team called out and the acronym for it is called FAST Company and so I was attached to a mechanized infantry unit at the time, where I had some really great friends, actually to this day. So it was a very odd situation.
Gregory Robinson:
One of the things I vividly remember when we were flying in from the ship to the helipad at the embassy compound was as we were looking from the doorway of the helo, we saw these Seabees, if you know what Naval Seabees are. They had these huge green camouflaged bulldozers and they were pushing lumber on a beach or so we thought. And it looked like the consistency, what I remember, of Raggedy Ann dolls. There we go telling my age again. And as we got closer, we realized that they weren’t Raggedy Ann dolls, they were bodies.
Gregory Robinson:
And they had ran out of space in the hospitals and the cemeteries and the other places that were used for makeshift graves. So they were bringing the people as far in from the beach as they could so they wouldn’t be swept out in the sea from the high tide, when the high tide came up because the embassy compound was on a cliff face and went straight up. That was my first experience and I was 22, maybe 23 years old at the time. I think I had my 23rd birthday … Yeah. I was 22 years old at the time. And I had been in a few years already at that time. So that was my first experience.
Warwick Fairfax:
Seeing that, it must make you think how can this kind of thing happen? All these questions are probably flooding in your mind. What could lead to such horrific scenes? You probably saw some really difficult things in your tours of duty. That probably wasn’t the last.
Gregory Robinson:
It does, but speaking again as a veteran, all those things about politics and your ideas and what you look like and you don’t look like and where you’re from and all those things, they all go out the window because it all comes down to you’re looking out for this guy that’s beside you and the other guy that’s beside you and vice versa and so everybody just wants to go back home to their own dysfunctional backgrounds and families when it’s all said and done. So you’re just, you’re friends and family. And that’s what makes especially combat veterans so close.
Warwick Fairfax:
It sounds like you found a real sense of camaraderie in the military. So somewhere along the lines, as we get to Unbreakable Man, it sounds like there was a turning point where you were maybe at one of the lowest points in your life and you could have gone one direction, but you went towards faith. Let’s talk about that pivotal moment where you chose faith, chose God if you will and not perhaps an alternative.
Gregory Robinson:
Well there are so many moments, but I’ll go to a funny one. This is after I had actually contemplated suicide at one time. I had just gotten …
Gary Schneeberger:
Now normally, someone doesn’t say I’m going to a funny one after talking about contemplating suicide. So our listeners are dying to hear this story.
Gregory Robinson:
Well, I’ll go back to the first one, the suicide portion. I just really got into a very bad point in my life between the PTSD that I had that I didn’t even know that I had at the time because I just assumed because of the type of people that I came up around in the military, was always normal.
Gregory Robinson:
And what I mean by that, it’s the best way I know how to describe it is when you have let’s say 100 individuals who came up together in an insane asylum for 10 years, just as an example. For them, that’s their normal. But then one day you unlock the door and you tell those 100, “Okay, go out and be with the rest of the world.” And they’re like, “But this is our world.” And so when they go out with the normal population, they’re like, “Who are all these strange people?” They say, “We’re not the strange ones, you’re the strange ones.”
Gregory Robinson:
And that’s what it’s like in my eyes is being a combat vet with PTSD because once you are discharged, especially combat vets, there is no turn-off switch. You just don’t go back to just being Greg Robinson the homeless kid who used to be out in the street. You’ve now had training and you’ve had education and indoctrination into a totally different culture and lifestyle. So whether it be four years or if it’s 20 or 30 years, you’ve still been indoctrinated. And that’s much what it was like being around the Marine Corps.
Gregory Robinson:
But now pushing forward, moving to the funny story. How I came into salvation was actually this lady had come to work for me on the job and she was a sanctified woman. And so every now and then, she’d talk about God. And I really didn’t want to hear it because I had seen almost everything as far as I was concerned. I had dealt with Hare Krishnas, I had dealt with Jehovah’s Witnesses, I had dealt with Methodists, I had dealt with Baptists and Muslims and so on and so on. So to me, it was all just one big melting pot in my eyes.
Gregory Robinson:
And I had grown up seeing hypocrites, these guys that call themselves preachers in the church and they’re hanging out at the same bar that I’m at on Saturday night until about 1 o’clock in the morning because they’ve got to go home early because they’ve got church in the morning. And there was one particular day, just kind of like what I’m doing, I kept people laughing and I was notorious for telling jokes. That particular day, I was telling a dirty joke.
Gregory Robinson:
And so as I was telling my dirty joke, she kept interrupting me, so I got irritated because I couldn’t get to my punchline. I said, “Just let me get to my punchline, say whatever you want.” So I went to go finish again and she says, “When you coming to church?” So I got so irritated that I said, “You know, fine. I’ll come to church, just let me finish my joke.” And she looked at me because she knew I was old-fashioned and she says, “I got you.”
Gregory Robinson:
So now I knew because I gave my word, I had to go to church. So I said, “Well, I know what I will do.” In my mind, I said, “I’m going to go to church to fulfill my obligation and I’m never going to come back.” So lo and behold, I go to church, I get convicted, I went two other times and on the third time, I brought my wife with me. I didn’t know why I brought her with me. I know now why.
Gregory Robinson:
And then we went to church and the pastor at the time made an altar call. And I really don’t remember going up, but I went up to the altar. He made an altar call the second time and my wife went up and our daughter who is now 19, will be 20 this year, she was 9 months old sitting in a car seat, as the assistant in my church watched over her while my wife and I were giving our lives to God. That’s my story in a long-winded, shortest version as I can get it how I came to know and understand God.
Gregory Robinson:
So from that day, actually when I got home that evening, I remember I was taking my daughter upstairs to put her in the crib. And something came over me and I told God, I said, “You know, God. I want to make a deal with you.” And I said, “I’ll tell you what. If you keep my daughter and then allow her to go through the things that I went through as a child and teach me how to be a father and how to be a husband because I didn’t have any examples, that I promise you I will serve you until the day that I die.”
Gregory Robinson:
I’ve got a great kid. She’s in college. She’s beautiful. She takes her brains from her mother and a little bit of her father’s attitude, but she’s still here. I’ve been in the church. I mark my time in the church by her. So I’ve been in the church almost 19 years.
Warwick Fairfax:
It sounds like that experience changed your whole life, led to Unbreakable Man. You charted a journey that was different than the one that you grew up with. Your daughter grew up radically different than you did.
Gregory Robinson:
Yes, sir.
Warwick Fairfax:
The Bible talks about sin can go to seven generations, which basically means forever. It’s just a biblical way of saying forever. I think sometimes virtue or faith can go to generations. So you’ve charted a new course. Without getting too much on a side track, as listeners know, I grew up in a very different background, a very wealthy background in Australia, large family business, but it was founded by a man of great faith. He was an elder at his church, a wonderful husband, great father. He treated his employees well. He did everything that a man of God, a man of Christ should do.
Warwick Fairfax:
That faith, it got a little watered down a bit over the generations as money and power crept in and money and power tends to erode faith, but that legacy of faith lasted in some fashion for generations. And so the legacy you’re leading, I don’t know how many generations that would last, two, three, four, five, 10. I don’t know. But you’ll have kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, great-great-great-grandkids that you’ll never meet unless you live to Biblical 175 or something. Who knows? But let’s assume it may not happen.
Warwick Fairfax:
You have a legacy that’s going to change from what you grew up with. So that’s something to I don’t know, if the words are to be proud of at least to be filled with joy about, right, to seeing what will happen with your daughter and generations.
Gregory Robinson:
Yes. I’m extremely thankful that God gave me an opportunity to be more than that because I know for a fact that I should have been dead at least a decade ago, if not 20 years ago from all the things that I went through. But for whatever reason, God had his hand of mercy upon me and as the scripture says, God is the father of the fatherless.
Gary Schneeberger:
This is a perfect time to bring up because of what Warwick said about your stories being so different, right? You laughed when he said that, Greg. When he said, “Yeah, my background was much different than yours.” And it’s true and yet, your crucibles and the things that you’ve gone through and the impact that has had on you. We discover this all the time on this show.
Gary Schneeberger:
No, not everyone has grown up with a 150-year-old family media company that they lost in a failed takeover bid to the tune of, as I like to tease Warwick about now, $2.25 billion nor has everyone listening to this show, Greg, gone through what you’ve gone through from being on your own at 16. You told me that you would take soap out of restaurants so that you could wash yourself and then your war experiences.
Gary Schneeberger:
But one of the things you said, Greg, that cements how the emotions of your crucible, Warwick’s crucible, I’m not giving the details of mine at this moment, but my crucible, everybody’s crucible tends to have certain emotional touch points. Getting beyond them, you said … We ask all guests what’s one bit of advice you would give someone to get beyond your crucible? And this is what you said.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I say this because that’s the advice that you follow, that’s the advice Warwick followed and that’s the advice that you’re encouraging the listeners to follow and that advice is this and I love the way you phrase it. Don’t let defeat, defeat you. How can people do that if you’re counseling, coaching, meeting someone where they’re at and they feel defeated, how do you tell them what’s the first step they can take?
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick talks a lot about what’s one small step you can take to move towards your goal? What’s your advice to how do you not let defeat, defeat you?
Gregory Robinson:
To be frank, I think I’m kind of a hard man in some ways. So my best piece of advice is to be flawed, meaning to … And sometimes it’s really hard when you’re in a bad situation, but you need to be able to take a look in the mirror and say, “Why am I in this situation? What is a thing that I could do to improve? What are my resources that I can maybe get for help.” Humble yourself. Allow yourself to take advice. It doesn’t mean all the advice is going to be the best advice, but nonetheless, it’s going to be advice and it’s going to help you to get to the point where you need to be if you allow it.
Gregory Robinson:
Because one of the things that I teach on, you mentioned in my bio about I call myself the caretaker of the 12 principles of resolve and this is something that God had given me not even a year ago now and it’s an acronym based off the word father. The first principle is to be flawed. The second is to be faithful. The third is to be accountable. The fourth is to be authoritative. The fifth is to be honest. The sixth is to be humble. The seventh is to be earnest. The eighth is to be an executor. Oh, I forgot my T. Yeah, T is to be trustworthy and the second T is to be tenacious. I’m going to skip down to R because I know I did the others already, is to be respectful and to be a rewarder.
Gregory Robinson:
And it’s actually broken down in three tiers, the first four, the second four and the last four. But the most important I think out of all of them is the very first one, to be flawed. Because you’ve got to recognize your issues, idiosyncrasies, whatever word you want to use, to look at yourself first and address those things and then figure out what you need for help. And of course, all three of us know being men of faith, the most important place you can go for help is to go to the king first because if you don’t go to the king first, then you can’t get to God.
Warwick Fairfax:
Amen. I love that phrase that you use. I think also you mentioned be flawed and ask for help. We all have flaws and we all have our own experiences. You’ve obviously gone through tough upbringing, PTSD in the military. Mine … You can’t compare crucibles. Mine feels like it’s trivial compared to what you’ve gone through. But losing a 150-year-old family media business that was founded by a person of faith and being a person of faith in my naïvety and poor theology, I felt like God had a plan to resurrect the family company in the image of the founder and I blew God’s plan. Obviously, if God had wanted it to happen, it would have happened.
Warwick Fairfax:
But aged my late 20s at about 30, I was just devastated. So we all have our crucibles. But yeah, it’s so true to just admit that you’re hurting, that it’s not easy. Get help from wise folks. So just link that for me. You mentioned the 12 principles and you have a ministry, Unbreakable Man. Tell me about this mission. What is that mission about? What is your passion? Where do you feel like God is calling you today? What’s his mission for you in life would you say?
Gregory Robinson:
My mission is to help other men. That’s putting it very simply, but when I talk about my job is to equip, enrich and to empower men to be better versions of themselves according to God’s base design in character because if you do that, then everything else will fall into place. What I mean by that, I’ll use a Biblical description. We all know that God created the man first and then he created Eve from the rib of the man to be his helpmate.
Gregory Robinson:
And Adam was the head of his household. He was the high priest. We know that’s how things were done at the time. And if Adam had to did what God instructed him to do and he had to chastise his wife and say, “Hey, you know what God said.” But instead, he allowed his wife to do what all of our wives do to us. They come up to us and they say, “Honey please.” And they bat their eyes and maybe they rub you on the back and bring you your favorite meal. And so he was cursed.
Gregory Robinson:
And so he went along with his wife. And when God came into the garden, he says, “Adam, where are you?” And then Adam didn’t answer. And he called him again and he didn’t answer. And he finally called him a third time if I remember right. He said, “Well, I’m over her.” He said, “Well come see me.” He said, “I can’t because I’m naked.” He said, “Well how do you know you’re naked?” So right there, he gave himself away and then of course, you know the rest of the story.
Warwick Fairfax:
Sure. How does this link with what you’re trying to teach? All of us sin. Men and women, we all fall. As scripture says, we all fall short of the glory of God.
Gregory Robinson:
Really what I’m teaching is, when I talk about the principles and then I tie in with this, this is about teaching men how to be real men, again according to God based character and design. And for so long, men haven’t been taught that. And as society pushes forward, we get further and further and further away from that, where we have women who don’t understand their places in the household. I know it’s old-fashioned, but it’s the truth. You get men who don’t understand their places in the household.
Gregory Robinson:
I’ll give you a good example. You gentlemen may or may not have seen it. There’s a commercial that comes on TV about Tide. I think it’s Tide. And it’s these two dads who are washing clothes, a black dad and a white dad, both men and the kids are playing around them. And they’re talking about detergent and what gets the clothes cleaner better. And one of, I think, the wives walks out of the house with a briefcase. There’s nothing wrong with women working, but what I’m saying is that the roles that God has designed for men and women is now completely reversed.
Gregory Robinson:
And the scripture even talks about it. It says how in the last days where the children shall be your oppressors and the women shall have rule over you. And so because we’re out of order, then everything is upside-down and it’s topsy-turvy. So if the husbands know how to be real husbands. For those who are married because you know how the world is today, that they’ve totally destroyed the institution of marriage.
Gregory Robinson:
And it used to be a term of shame if you came home and you were pregnant and you weren’t married. They would send the daughters off to a place with an aunt or an uncle or an old family member someplace in the country. And that’s not to say that my situation was any better because it wasn’t. But the point is that I’m on this side now serving God and I know better now and I understand.
Gregory Robinson:
And if we could teach men these things based upon these principles and understand who they are, what it means to be flawed, what it means to be faithful, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, then we could get them back on track. And I think a lot of the problems that we have in society would be remedied and it would start from that base foundation.
Warwick Fairfax:
Is there an element of servant leadership in which you try to teach men? Because I know the whole role of men and women is a complex subject to discuss in our day and age, but scripture talks about a man should love his husband as Christ loves the church, basically lay his life down. So there’s the sense of leadership. The scripture talks about servant leadership, but not … I know that you are not talking this, about not so much domineering, but more of a servant’s heart. You try to teach men just that husbands are meant to have a servant’s heart as they love their wives.
Gregory Robinson:
Yes. The scripture you’re talking about, it says how men should love their wives as Christ loves the church. So when I speak of leadership, I don’t mean the old-fashioned, domineering, beat your chest, drag the woman by the hair. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about leadership based upon scripture and biblical principles, meaning the scripture says that as a man who wants a wife, he needs to understand her.
Gregory Robinson:
So we know that women are emotional. Men are not so emotional and each one has a specific design by God in their roles. So your job is to teach your wife and children according to God’s ways. But if no one ever teaches you that and you don’t understand that, then there’s no way for you to know. And that’s why you have so many men that are so far from the church and so distant in relationships because now what they have is they have their mothers trying to raise men when you need a father to raise it. But how can a father learn how to be a man unless his father is in his life? When I say father I mean as in marriage.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so many young guys don’t have role models or what it means to be a man of God or even a man of character to not abandon families, to be around to love their kids, not yell and scream, but resolve things peacefully as partners. You try and teach young guys what it really means to be a real man, which is not to dominate. It’s not to abuse or to hit or strike, but just to love, be a servant leader. Leadership can take many forms and often what we think of leadership is not what young folks think leadership is.
Warwick Fairfax:
It’s not my way or the highway. It’s more of a servant leadership, loving your wife as God loves us. So that’s got to be a tall order to try and teach in Unbreakable Man. That’s a real cultural shift. How do you get this through to young guys? It’s you’re speaking a foreign language. What the heck are you saying, Greg?
Gregory Robinson:
I start off with the book and then you engage them in conversation. Because once they get past what you look like on the outside, meaning usually where I work, I’m usually in a shirt and a tie and a jacket, clean-cut is just how I am. And then when they start really talking to you, they’re like, “Wow, you do understand.” So now you’ve met them at their level and so now you can talk to them because you’re not a foreigner so to speak. You’re not someone who hasn’t been in their shoes or worse.
Gregory Robinson:
And they can tell when they talk to you whether you’re sincere or genuine or not. So the authenticity comes out and then I’m able to say, “Hey, this is what you need to do.” “Wow. I never thought about it like that.” And then you’re able to engage more and more and more. And then what I find is they just start absorbing like sponges because they’ve never had anyone to sit down, another man, and to tell them these things. Not all kids or not all young men, but a lot of them.
Gregory Robinson:
And then most young women want to be married, so when they hear it, they’re like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah.” It’s like, “Well wait a minute. Before you say yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s some stuff in here for you, too.” It’s not really for you per se, but …
Warwick Fairfax:
Well you have a daughter, right? So you’re obviously saying be very careful that the man that you fall in love with, you want to make sure you pick the right one.
Gregory Robinson:
Yes, sir. And I take it very seriously because I told you earlier in my story about being a father. I asked God to teach me because I had no idea. Because what I did when I got married the first time and don’t laugh at me too hard when I say this, but I took what I saw as a kid, friends who had fathers because when I was a kid, the ones who did have fathers, we were kind of jealous. You’ve got a dad and I don’t have a dad to go home to. I can’t say, “Hey Dad, can you throw the ball with me? Can you do this with me?”
Gregory Robinson:
Between the TV shows and everything else that you saw like the Huxtables, Father Knows Best and et cetera, et cetera. I’m really showing age there, Father Knows Best. But I just hodgepodged it in my mind and used that as my reference point on what I should do as a husband and as a father. And the majority of stuff that I did was absolutely wrong because none of it was God centered.
Gregory Robinson:
So when I got married the second time and I had my daughter and she was a baby still before my second child was born. I told you guys my story, how I asked God to teach me how to be a father and a husband. Because I was horrible at both and didn’t even realize it. So what God did for me is because I humble myself and just like the scripture says, the king says, “Take my yoke and learn of me.” We talk about yoke and the kids say, “You mean like an egg?” No. It’s not an egg.
Warwick Fairfax:
Not that kind of yoke.
Gregory Robinson:
It was an old fashioned device that they put around a horse or a beast of burden’s neck to control them.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oxen, that kind of thing.
Gregory Robinson:
Yes. Yes. Exactly. So I took God’s yoke and took my time and I learned and God taught me and I listened. I didn’t buck too much and rebel. I think God did a fairly decent job with me, so I try to set myself a better standard for my daughters so when they grow up they know exactly what to look for. This is how my dad was. My dad was always faithful. He loved my mother greatly. He’d do anything for us. We never had to want for anything, but he was a disciplinarian. He guided us. He taught us right from wrong.
Gregory Robinson:
So now they know what to choose. They know what to look for because of the standard their dad set. And then my standard came from my dad, which is our mutual father which in heaven.
Warwick Fairfax:
Amen.
Gary Schneeberger:
That is an excellent point to do what I normally say, Greg. Normally at this point in the show, I say it’s getting about time to land the plane. The captain has turned on that fasten seat belt sign. But in honor of you, as a huge Star Wars fan, I’m going to say we’ve come to the point in the show when Han Solo is going to bring down the Millennium Falcon. It’s time to land that ship, but before we do, I would be remiss if I did not give you the chance to let our listeners know how they can find out more about you, more about the Unbreakable Man and more about your book, Bad, Bandages, Bullets and Beyond. How can they find out more about you?
Gregory Robinson:
You can find me on Amazon. I’m listed. You can find a link for the book. My email or my website, actually I’ll do my website. That’ll be easier. It’s a long one so you’ve got to pay attention.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right. We’ll have it in the show notes, too, but go ahead.
Gregory Robinson:
It’s theunbreakableman.live, all one word, dot live. And then my email is great@theunbreakableman.live. Or you can find me on Instagram, as well. It’s also under theunbreakableman and you can find me on Facebook, as well. I’m not a huge social media fan, but it is what it is. So Instagram, Facebook, website and then via email if you want a hard copy of the book, I’ll send you a signed copy.
Gary Schneeberger:
Fantastic. Warwick, the last question is yours.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well thank you so much, Greg, for being here. You have an inspiring story. You’ve had some tough journeys growing up, as well as in the military, but just your ministry, the Unbreakable Man, just really trying to care for young guys, the 12 principles of resolve. It’s very inspiring because there’s a lot of young guys out there that don’t have a role model of what is it to be a real man? It’s not like in the movies, some tough guy that beats everybody else up. There’s a time and a place for defense and to protect your family and all this, a time and a place for that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Being a real man is a lot more than just being tough. It doesn’t mean it’s wrong to be tough, but being compassionate, having a servant’s heart, being faithful, honoring your family, honoring God. That’s a mission that there’s not a lot of people doing that and they need a lot more people in the game, a lot more people in that company of troops if you will, right? You need a whole lot more soldiers on that mission trying to help young guys understand what it is to really be a real man and what it means to be an Unbreakable Man. So thank you for your ministry. It’s a tough mission field, but it’s really needed. So thank you.
Gregory Robinson:
Thank you.
Gary Schneeberger:
That sound that you heard, listeners is not the plane landing on the … It’s Chewbacca being excited that the Millennium Falcon has landed. Before we go, let me rewind a bit of our conversation and leave you with some take-aways from this very enlightening, moving conversation with Greg Robinson.
Gary Schneeberger:
Number one and this is so good, don’t let defeat, defeat you. There’s a movie. I can’t remember the name of it now, but this line has stuck with me. There’s a movie I love in which this kind of shyster character says after his get rick quick scheme fails again for the 18th time, he tells his associate, “Remember defeat is always momentary.”
Gregory Robinson:
That’s right.
Gary Schneeberger:
When you say that don’t let defeat, defeat you, that’s what pops into my head. It is not the end of your story if you determine to pick up the pieces and move forward. Greg ran into brick walls at many junctions of his life, but he never let the disappointment, even the devastation of the defeat keep him defeated. He moved beyond his crucibles. He realized he is flawed and found a way to find advice to move beyond that crucible. The second point goes back to you, we, me, everyone.
Gary Schneeberger:
We need to recognize that we are flawed, embrace those flaws and use them to empower yourself to overcome the most damaging ramifications of these flaws. Be humble enough to take coaching to help you overcome your flaws. Be authentic enough not to hide them. Be brave enough to learn from them.
Gary Schneeberger:
And then the third point take-away from our conversation with Greg and this is infused throughout this episode and that is this: Smile. Watch this episode on our YouTube channel. I will include it in the show notes. You’ll see how many times, even when describing terrible tragedies that Greg’s face breaks into a smile. Here’s the key take-away there: Finding joy amid the pain is critical to overcoming your crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
And speaking of overcoming your crucible, listeners thank you for spending your time with us today talking about how we do that, how we move beyond our crucibles. Warwick and I would ask do us a little favor. If you enjoyed this conversation, click like and subscribe on the podcast app on which you’re listening to this.
Gary Schneeberger:
You can also, if you want to know where you are on your journey to move beyond your crucible, we heard about Greg’s journey and moving beyond his crucibles today, you can discover where you are by going to crucibleleadership.com and taking our life of significance assessment. You can find out exactly what your personality type is as you’re navigating your road back and you can find great next steps for how to do that.
Gary Schneeberger:
So until the next time we’re together, please remember this, that your crucibles are painful, they’re real, they knock you off your feet. But they are not by any stretch of the imagination, they are not the end of your story.
Gregory Robinson:
Amen.
Gary Schneeberger:
I’m smiling right now saying that because Greg smiled so much in this episode. They can be the beginning of a new story, a better story, a more rewarding story and the reason why it happened for Warwick, it’s happened for me and it definitely happened to Greg Robinson our guest today, those lessons that you learned from your crucible can set you up in a new chapter of your story that is so rewarding because at the end of the day, it leads you to where Greg has been led, where Warwick has been led and that is to a life of significance.
There is a lot of discussion these days in the world of sports about who is the greatest of all time (GOAT). This was brought to the fore recently with the tragic car accident of Tiger Woods in California. He suffered extensive injuries to his legs. This raised the question of what this would do to Woods’ quest to chase down Jack Nicklaus’ record of 18 major golf championships. Tiger is now 45 and has 15 major golf titles. Is time running out for Tiger to chase down Jack’s major championship record and be thought of as the definitive best men’s professional golfer of all time?
Tom Brady recently won his seventh Super Bowl championship with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, after having won the previous six with the New England Patriots. Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw have won four Super Bowls each. It would seem that Tom Brady has the edge as the greatest NFL quarterback of all time.
In tennis, we live in an age where three of the greatest men’s tennis players of all time are playing against each other. Roger Federer until recently with 20 grand slam championships, eclipsing Pete Sampras’ record of 14, was thought of as the greatest of all time. However, with Rafael Nadal winning the French Open last year, he now has tied Federer. Nadal is widely expected to win this year’s French Open and thus beat Federer’s major championships record. Novak Djokovic has 18 majors and could well win quite a few more. All this to say, with Federer at age thirty-nine, while he may have previously been thought of as the greatest of all time, by the time all their careers are over, the GOAT in men’s tennis could well be Nadal or Djokovic.
Few of us are vying to be the greatest of all time in any sport. But being thought of as the greatest in our field, our town, our community can still haunt us. Perhaps we were one of the best basketball or baseball players in our high school. We might have won many debating championships, or gymnastics competitions or diving meets. In our careers, we might think of ourselves as the top lawyer or the top surgeon in our community, or perhaps even in our state.
The challenge is that tying our identity to being the greatest of all time in a sport, a career or any field of endeavor can be dangerous. Even if many, including you, think of yourself as the GOAT in your area of influence, that status can be fleeting. As many athletes say, records are made to be broken. Having your identity being wrapped up in being the greatest is quite ephemeral. Even if the numbers back you up today, someone may eclipse your record tomorrow.
So how do you avoid the pitfalls of the GOAT mindset? Can you still try to be the best at what you do, go for it so to speak, without having your identity wrapped up in being the greatest of all time? Yes, you can. Here are some tips to avoid the downside of the GOAT mentality.
1. Don’t focus solely on records.
It is OK to want to be the best at your chosen field, wanting to be the best you can be. Rather than fixating on records, though, focus day to day on improvement. What should I do today to be a bit better than yesterday? What can I do to get to the next level in my field? We should always want to improve. After all, in business and life, if you are not growing and improving, you are probably declining.
2. Enjoy the process.
Some of the greatest athletes have achieved the records they have because they truly love the game and everything about it. They enjoy competing, of course. But they also enjoy training, honing their craft. They enjoy the challenge of the process, and the work they have put in. Yes, they want to win, but if they have given it their all, have prepared as well and as hard as they can, the truly great players seem to handle even losses better than others. Nobody likes losing, but if you have worked hard and focused on the process, it makes it easier.
3. Have other areas to focus on.
Having other activities you enjoy can create balance in your life. You often hear great athletes when they have families saying how much they enjoy being with their families and their kids. Some who have small children bring their kids with them on the road. No matter how much you love what you do, you should think of yourself as more than what you do.
4. Keep your identity separate from your profession.
When you start seeing your sense of self as solely or primarily wrapped up in your chosen profession, that is very dangerous. You have to see yourself as a human being with inherent value whose self-worth does not depend on records or public accolades. How often do we see an athlete or public figure fall from grace in part because they began to believe their own press clippings? They begin to think, “I really am the greatest of all time.” We think of the phrase, “Pride comes before a fall.” This actually comes from Proverbs 16:18 in the Bible, “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall” (NIV).
5. Hold it all lightly.
Records come and go. You might be in the prime of your athletic career or be the leader of your organization. It will not last. Someone will take your place eventually. That is certain and inevitable. Enjoy what you do, but don’t hold on too tight.
When all is said and done and your glory days are behind you, what matters most is not your records and your accolades. What matters more is your legacy. How did you treat people along the way? How did you play the game? You may have given it your all, but did you do it with grace, being modest in victory and conciliatory in defeat? At the end of the day, will your legacy be one that people, including you can be proud of? Will it be a life of records and achievement, or will it be a life of significance?
Reflection
How much is your identity wrapped up in being the greatest of all time in your field?
How will you decouple who you are from what you do?
What one step will you take this week, to having a more balanced and sustainable approach to your life?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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