Do you have a good handle on the values that guide your life and work? The character traits you admire in others and try to manifest yourself? Or do you find such talk “airy-fairy” – nebulous nonsense with no practical application to your business and your relationships? Listen in and discover how dialing into your values and treating others with kindness, dignity and respect as a result is far from airy-fairy – it’s critical to team morale (including your own) and the robustness of your bottom line. BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host and Crucible Leadership founder Warwick Fairfax discusses with cohost Gary Schneeberger seven key tactics to make sure you are not unkind in your interactions. What begins in the moorings of your values branches out into such wise pursuits as living your legacy today, serving others and a higher purpose and knowing when and how to apologize. Putting these insights into action will aid you in moving beyond your crucible … and living and leading with significance.
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Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. How do you get back from the cliff of where you’re chewing people out and you’re not treating people kindly? It’s really getting rooted in your values and it could be from a faith or philosophical tradition, but I think it’s good to ask yourself, “Well what is it I believe in?” Maybe it’s kindness, dignity, and respect. Maybe it’s honoring people, maybe it’s generosity. Maybe it’s listening to people, valuing people. We all have values that are deeply rooted. Try to understand okay, what is it I believe in? It’s easy, it may be obvious to say but when you’re running a million miles an hour, how often do you think “Gee, and what are my values? I don’t have time to think of these airy fairy ethereal philosophical things. Stuff’s got to get done.” So values, I don’t know, not everybody even knows what their values are.
Gary S:
So what about you? Do you have a good handle on the values that guide your life and work, the character traits you admire in others and try to manifest in yourself? Or do you find such talk as Warwick said, airy fairy, nebulous nonsense with no practical application to your business and your relationships?
Gary S:
Hi I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. On this week’s episode you’ll discover we hope, that dialing into your values and treating others with kindness, dignity and respect as a result is a far cry from airy fairy. It’s critical to team morale, including your own and the robustness of your bottom line. Warwick and I take a deep dive into his latest blog in which he unpacks seven key tactics to make sure you are not to use a technical business term, an unkind jerk in your interactions. What begins in the moorings of your values branches out into such wise pursuits as living your legacy today, serving others in a higher purpose and knowing when and how to apologize. Taking his seven points to heart and putting them into action will aid you in moving beyond your crucible and living and leading with significance.
Gary S:
The subject that we’re going to talk about is the subject that Warwick covers in a recent blog on his website, on the website for Crucible Leadership, crucibleleadership.com. You can find the blog. As I always say when we have these episodes, if it’s not there already, it will be there shortly. So check it out, look for the blog. If the blog is not there yet come back often and it will be there shortly. But the subject of that blog and the subject of our discussion today, here’s the headline for the blog, want to be a great leader, show people kindness, dignity, and respect. I love sort of the last line of the intro of Warwick’s blog and this’ll be our jumping off point for our conversation, but Warwick poses this question to the reader of the blog. So how do we avoid becoming an unkind jerk in a very technical, business term?
Gary S:
How do we avoid becoming an unkind jerk, or if we are somewhere on the road to becoming one, what do we do? And that’s we’re chuckling at the language there, but the reality is very true Warwick that it is not just possible but sadly comments when we’re moving along in our career that we sort of leave kindness, dignity, and respect behind in pursuit of our goals.
Warwick F:
It’s very true. I mean, life is hectic. There’s a lot of pressure. We live in very pressure filled times, divided times COVID, people working from home, everything our lives are turned upside down. And even without that as we rise in organizations, our bosses are more demanding. Typically, you get paid more, you get expected to work more. There’s no free lunch in the corporate world. And our bosses, shareholders, boards, they feel pressure. Pressure flows downhill, and it flows to wherever we are in the organization chart, be it high level, mid level, lower level. And as the pressure intensifies, the demands to get things done, we might think of ourselves as kind people that treat people with dignity and respect. But the challenge is as the pressure intensifies it’s like this stuff’s got to get done. I don’t have time for nice.
Warwick F:
It’s got to get done. If it doesn’t get done maybe people need to be chewed out a bit. It’s not a conscious thing, but it’s just we don’t operate as our best selves under intense pressure, or at least it’s much, much harder. And so it’s easy to think, “Oh I’m a kind person. I treat people with dignity and respect.” Well, maybe, maybe not, maybe not always. And so that’s why I sort of hesitated as I got into this, because those are some of my highest values. Treating people with kindness, dignity, and respect is not just the task, it’s task and people. I’d say even me I mean maybe especially me, maybe all of us. We’re going to have moments when it’s like, “Really, what just happened?” If we’re self aware enough, if we’re not then stuff happens and we don’t even realize it. So the point is that this can be all of us, especially as the pressure mounts as we rise in organizations. Yeah. It’s almost inevitable that we will have this tendency.
Gary S:
And it’s interesting that I hadn’t thought about this. We have not talked about this beforehand. I hadn’t thought about it until you just said what you said about as we rise up and pressure mounts and things can change. You’ve talked in other episodes, you’ve talked about mission drift and the dangers of mission drift, how you have this vision for what you want to do in your business, a vision for your life of significance. And as you pursue it, you can get off course. And even just a degree a day or a week, or whatever can take you pretty far from where you want to go. It’s true what you’re saying I think also about personality drift or leadership drift or kindness drift. You can think you’re going there, but you can make little compromises as you move along, as you move up that ladder, and that can lead you to a place where you go, “Oh, geez. I have become what I never wanted to become.” Right?
Warwick F:
And that’s really almost your worst nightmare. I mean, as we talk about kindness, dignity, and respect, I would term it as values. So really kind of what we’re talking about here is values drift. Mission drift is bad. Value drift feels significantly worse because values sum up what we believe in, who we think we are. We’ve talked about who we are and what sums that up and our soul in other podcasts and blogs. And so when you start drifting from your values, you start drifting from everything we think that we are and everything that’s important in life. And so when you’re not who you believe is really important to be, that’s pretty sobering. If you value treating people with dignity and you somehow demean somebody without even thinking about it, because it’s like “Look, I needed this yesterday and you’re giving it to me day to today. It’s not done right. Why did I hire you? What the heck’s going on here?”
Warwick F:
I mean I’m going to get chewed out by my boss without even saying, “Gosh, normally you do good work, but what happened?” Maybe they’d say, “Well, stuff has been tough at home. I’ve got some kids that are sick or maybe I had a death in the family.” You might not even know because you didn’t ask and you just chew them out without even thinking. Then of course found out later the full story, then you feel horrendous, but it’s very easy to treat people in a way that’s not in line with your values. Which is, it may not be soul destroying, but it’s soul damaging. Especially if you start doing that a lot. And what you don’t want to have happen, is people around the water cooler, which obviously doesn’t happen as much these days or your dinner table or parents, cousins, whatever, say you know, “I remember John, I remember Mary and they was so nice in high school and college, but I feel like they’re different now. What happened? It’s so sad.”
Warwick F:
That’s not uncommon and you don’t want to be the subject of that kind of it’s so sad conversation.
Gary S:
Right. And it’s true that it doesn’t just affect morale of folks on your team. And obviously when morale is affected, when people who work for you, who work with you don’t feel valued, feel dismissed, don’t feel like you’re treating them with kindness, dignity, and respect, their work can suffer. And your bottom line as an entrepreneur, as a leader, the bottom line of your organization can suffer as well.
Warwick F:
Right. I mean, people don’t mind working hard if they believe in the mission of the organization and they believe in the leader. At least not for a season, maybe not 24/7 but if you start not treating people well, and obviously you start moving out of alignment with the mission, people are going to start saying, “Well, what’s it all for? I don’t need this. Life’s too short. I just worked till 10, 11 o’clock for four or five days in a row to get the proposal done, and I didn’t hear a thank you. I didn’t hear a, sorry things are so tough. I didn’t hear anything. It’s like really? I just get chewed at, because I missed a paragraph somewhere or I forgot to include something and 99% of it was great. And I get chewed out for the 1%? I mean, seriously?”
Warwick F:
People who can the best and the brightest people have options. They’ll leave, they’ll say, “Forget this. Life’s too short. Let me go and work for somebody that’s a human, rather than some robotic automaton that just cares about the task. Who needs it? I’d like to work for a human, not a heartless robot.” So it absolutely can affect you.
Gary S:
Yeah. And very quickly the next transition here, we’ll get into the specifics of your blog and the point by point way that you look at how you both guard against abandoning kindness, dignity, and respect, but also how you can of course correct in the midst of it. But before we do that, one the things you hinted at it earlier when you talked about COVID. And in COVID times you said something about the water cooler and there fewer times. And I think I found this fascinating story that was just done by Harvard Business Review, in May of this year just a few months ago. And as we talk about the importance of showing kindness, respect, expressing dignity toward those on your team. This bit of advice of research wisdom from the Harvard Business Review in terms of COVID and what that’s done to make this even more important, I think is a good place for us to start or to add this in before we start getting into your point by point.
Gary S:
And this is what the HBR article said, “The transformation of the workplace into scheduled online meetings has led to another source of deprivation, the removal of serendipitous encounters.” I love that phrase. For many people hearing a colleague say, “Thank you so much,” in the hallway or a manager telling you “Great job,” after a presentation were a highlight of office life. Now, these seem like traditions from another lifetime. Here’s the takeaway point, without water cooler interactions, casual lunches and coffee breaks with colleagues, we don’t have the same opportunities for social connection as before. Without them, it can be much harder to find joy in your work. So what can we do about it? Harvard Business Review asks and you respond, even though you weren’t necessarily working off their story in your blog. And point one in your blog in talking about recapturing kindness, dignity, and respect in the workplace is to get rooted in your values. You’ve touched on that a little bit, but let’s dive a little bit-
Warwick F:
Yeah, no, I think that’s a good point. Just want to touch on what you said because it’s worthy of just noting what was in that Harvard Business Review article. I mean, what can happen is normally in the pre COVID world you might drop into somebody’s office and say, “Hey, how’s it going? How’s the weekend?” Talk about the kids maybe. I know we talked off air big NBA final you’re a Bucks fan “Hey, how’s it going?” Well, that will be a normal water cooler discussion. Key game now, you know game six but without that, you might not get to what people think is chit-chat. But as you know Chris Tuff who wrote a book, Millennial Whisperer, millennials I think even more than millennials, they want many things, but one of the things is human connection.
Warwick F:
They want purpose, but they want to feel like people care about their lives. But when you’re in the wired world that we’re in now with Zoom meetings, what have you, it’s easy to feel like hey, we just got to get stuff done. We don’t really have time for the chit chat. Hey, how the Buck’s doing. How’s the family? Because you might find out things aren’t going so well. Maybe there’s a family member that’s sick. Maybe kids are having challenges at school or on the sports field. You don’t get any of that human connection, which is part of what builds a spirit of dignity, kindness, and respect. And kind of one other thing before we get into that, the first one, where this whole blogs and podcast started is easy to think, oh other people are jerks or they’re not nice, or they don’t treat people with kindness, dignity, and respect.
Warwick F:
That other person maybe you. It’s easy to think it’s always the other guy, the other person. And so that was sort of a really, if you think about your own life, it’s sort of sobering. Don’t be so quick to accuse others of what you maybe yourself. People who live in glass houses and that whole aphorism.
Gary S:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So just really getting to that first point is, so how do you get back from the cliff of where you’re chewing people out and you’re not treating people kindly? It’s really getting rooted in your values and it could be from a faith or philosophical tradition, but I think it’s good to ask yourself, “Well, what is it I believe in?” Maybe it’s kindness, dignity, and respect. Maybe it’s honoring people, maybe it’s generosity. Maybe it’s listening to people, valuing people. We all have values that are deeply rooted. And so just try to understand, “Okay, what is it I believe in?” Because it’s easy. It may be obvious to say, but when you’re running a million miles an hour, how often do you think, “Gee, and what am I values?” It’s like, I don’t have time to think of these airy fairy ethereal philosophical things, stuff’s got to get done. So values, I don’t know. Not everybody even knows what their values are, but that’s the first point is who are you? What do you believe in? What are your values?
Gary S:
And it’s not just airy fairy. I mean, that’s a great adjective to describe it, but those values and what is at the end of acting on those values affects the bottom line. Again from this Harvard Business Review article, they write this, “Being recognized at work helps reduce employee burnout and absenteeism and improves employee wellbeing. Gallup finds year after a year in its survey of U.S. workers receiving a compliment words of recognition and praise can help individuals feel more fulfilled, boost their self-esteem, improve their self evaluations and trigger positive emotions, decades of research have shown.” So these things that emanate from your values, treating people with, going back to our three organizing construct words, kindness, dignity, and respect. Those things aren’t airy fairy in the sense that when you do that, here’s study after study, after study, after study, after study, after study, that says, “These are the things that motivate your teams to work hard for you and work well for you.”
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And a lot of people write about corporate culture and we need to improve corporate culture which sounds fuzzy, but people spend lots of time and money on it. Really another way of talking about corporate culture is what are the values of the organization? And ideally you work for an organization whose values are in line with yours. If they’re not, why are you there? Especially if it’s really out of alignment. If you value kindness, dignity, and respect and you’re in some organization that is ruthlessness, ambition and greed or something, it may not be a good fit. They might not articulate that on their mission statement or value statement, “Hey, we’re about greed and you know,” but it may be evident there. But let’s assume in there’s some kind of alignment you have to lead out of what your values are.
Warwick F:
You can’t lead out of somebody else’s value. So yeah, you want to create a positive, sustainable corporate culture where people are motivated, if people feel downtrodden and mistreated, they’re not going to work hard for you. They’re not going to give it the extra mile. They’re not going to give you that game-changing suggestion. It’s like “Why should I give this jerk that I’m working for this suggestion? It will probably just help his career. He’ll give me no credit. I mean, what’s the point? I’m just going to do my job, punch in and punch out at the end of the day. And so long as I do my job, that’s all I care about. I’m not going to go the extra mile. There’s no way. For this guy? No way.”
Gary S:
And I’m going to actually like call them out by name here. I had a boss I worked at Focus on the Family. I was the vice president of communications there. And my boss was Jim Daly, the president of the organization. And I used to say about Jim, there are some bosses that you can work for and I had worked for them in my career up until that point. There’s some bosses that you wouldn’t necessarily follow into I would say. There’s some bosses I’ve worked for I wouldn’t follow into an ice cream store if ice cream were free. But I would say I would follow Jim Daly into a burning building simply because he said, “Let’s go.” And that was all rooted in the kindness, dignity, and respect that he showed me and he showed others, and he showed the constituents of Focus On The Family. I mean, his character led to that kind of loyalty and I’d like to think led to good work out of me as I walked that out.
Warwick F:
I mean, that’s such a great example. And you think about it, wouldn’t you want your team, your employees to say what Gary just said, that they would walk into a burning building just because you asked? It’s that kind of mentality that says, “Hey, we got this bid coming up, we got this deal. There’s challenges in the marketplace. We’re really going to have to step up our game for the next few months.” You want people saying, “Great, tell me what you need me to do. I’m in. Just because of who you are, I’m in. What do I need to do? Okay, it’s not exactly my job description, but I think I can do it. No problem. What do you need me to do?” As somebody once said “The answer’s yes, what’s the question?”
Gary S:
Right. Yeah. Another way of phrasing it.
Warwick F:
And that’s what with you and Jim Daly, right? “Hey, I’m really gonna need you to step up here.” Gary, you’d say “Great. The answer’s yes. What do you need me to do?”
Gary S:
Absolutely. And it’s still like that. If I still have to, if I still have the opportunity to do something for him, I would still do it. So I would say this as we wrap up this section on values, you use the words and I love the phrase airy fairy, but really it’s Heavy Chevy, right? I mean your values, because they have impact on your bottom line, they’re not airy fairy at all. They’re Heavy Chevy.
Warwick F:
And just one thing on this, not only does it have impact on the bottom line, it has impact on your career. Okay?
Gary S:
Amen.
Warwick F:
I mean, what kind of performance approval are you to get from your boss? Well, get stuff done, but this person’s team hates him or her. Okay? They’re leaving in droves. I mean, how in the world in a sane organization, let’s assume that they’re somewhat sane and they somewhat care about the bottom line. Why would you promote that kind of person? I mean, it’s like they’re I don’t know if the word is pariah, but it’s like this, somebody that everybody runs away from. I mean, why would you promote that person? They’re a culture killer, a bottom line killer. It’s just nuts.
Gary S:
Right and even though employees right now yet aren’t talking around water coolers as much as they used to, they do text, right? Everybody’s got one of these and the same kinds of things that this boss was X, Y, and Z, or treated me this way, those conversations still take place. They just maybe don’t take place around water coolers-
Warwick F:
They can go viral, social media, you know bad news travels fast. And in the era that we live in the social media, bad news travels even faster and even louder. So, absolutely. Yep.
Gary S:
So our second point, your second point, once you get rooted in your values, a logical follow-up from that is to take an inventory, assess how well you’re doing at living according to those values. And that gets to the point that we made earlier about the potential for values drift. Here are my values. Here’s what I believe in. Here’s, what is most important to me. Now, do a deep dive on yourself and find out am I living that out every day?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. For those in businesses and organizations think of it this way, you might say, “Well, what’s our mission? How are we doing towards the mission? Let’s make it more concrete. Here’s our five-year strategic plan. How are we doing in meeting and achieving the objectives in our strategic plan?” Every vaguely well-run organization does it. Here’s the plan. Are we meeting our plan? Are we accomplishing our objectives? That’s what you do. If you don’t do that, it probably won’t be there too long. I mean, that’s just basic corporate 101 stuff. So this is pretty similar is okay you say, you have these values, well that’s great. But how are you doing living that out? Obviously you think it’s important because it sums up almost as we said, in another podcast your soul, your most deeply cherished beliefs and values, but how are you doing?
Warwick F:
And so for that you can ask coworkers, friends, family. It’s not an easy thing to, get an answer to but if you hear people say, “You know what? Fred, Mary you’ve been under a lot of stress recently and it’s just tough. Look, I get it.” That’s a nice way of saying you may be missing the mark. It’s not that hard to decode. And so you can ask the next question. So kind of what are you seeing and maybe ask for some suggestions about what can you do to be a better self? Maybe ask people for help at home or things that would reduce your stress. I mean, there are things it’s like “Well, I’m happy to help but you always tell me I’m good. I’m good. I’ve got it.” And sometimes it’s like, “I’ve not got it. I’m falling apart. I can’t do it all.”
Gary S:
One of the things that I’ve not all the time, when I first started out in my career, evaluation time was please tell me more, tell me more, tell me more of what I’m doing well because I needed that affirmation. At some point in my career I kind of know what I do well, what I always found most valuable is what are those things I can improve on? And that’s a slightly different thing than saying what I don’t do well. What can I improve on and how can I improve? And that goes to your point about asking other people, don’t just tell me what I’m not doing right. Tell me how I might be able to do that better. Tell me how what I’m doing is effecting you in a negative way and it’s affecting the company in a negative way. Those kinds of evaluations can be true lifeblood for you to sort of walk out this living by your values.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, it’s so good. I remember one of the other people we had in our podcast, Sheila Heen, she has written a book on how to receive feedback. A lot of people write books on how to give it but receive. And you’re really talking about some of the themes that she’s talked about in her book, but one of the things that relates to another thing we’ve talked about is if you get your whole sense of inner self-worth and self-esteem from your job, and somebody tells you, you’re not doing it too well, or there’s stacks of things you can improve in and that’s hard to take. And so if you want to receive feedback well and ask the question, what are areas I can improve in it, let’s say that touches on value. Well I think people are a little scared of you.
Warwick F:
One of the people we had in our podcast, Cathleen Merkel, she was in her 30s, a hard-charging driven person and her woman boss said to her, “Cathleen, you scare people.” Well, that was horrifying because she thinks of herself as a good person, which she is, but that led her to make some changes in life and a bit more balanced life, a broader perspective. So I think it’s a very good point to ask “Okay, what can I improve on?” But some self work ahead of time would be, “I need to stop getting so much of my self worth and self esteem out of my job. Because if I do, you will tend not to want to hear the feedback and you will find ways to dismiss it.” If you want to receive that feedback so that you can live in line with your values, try to start decoupling your sense of self worth from your job, if that makes sense.
Gary S:
Absolutely. It makes so much sense. It’s a perfect bridge to point number three from your blog which is, consider your legacy, right? We’ve talked many times on this show about you don’t want your legacy to be how many zeros were in your bank account. You don’t want your legacy of how you remembered to be this success, that success. I’ve shared on those podcasts the three top musical artists in their genres, Johnny Cash in country, Frank Sinatra in jazz standards and Elvis Presley in rock and roll have on their headstones zero numbers of how many gold records they had, right? Johnny Cash has a Psalm on his Frank Sinatra’s which I’ve been to says the best is yet to come at the top. Elvis he talks about being a son and a father. So this idea of considering your legacy helps you as you say, what do I want to be thought of, be remembered for? It helps you move beyond what you were just talking about. Your identity only comes from your work.
Warwick F:
Yeah, it’s such a good point. I mean, really legacy is related to values because you think that at your funeral somebody is giving you a eulogy, some family members. Afterwards they’re chatting maybe outside of church or outside the cemetery and just saying, So what do we think about … And you start talking about them, about happy memories, a variety of things that might make you laugh and cry a whole series of things. Well, what you want the conversation to be is I don’t think you want to say, “Well, they was super successful. Had the nice house, the nice car, the nice boat. They were CEO. Yeah, they were very successful.” And then there’s a pause and there’s nothing else, right? It’s like, really? For most of us, it’s like, “No, no, no, I’m more than my achievements. I’m more than my success, whether it’s business or athletic or artistic.” And you want people to say, “I love that person. They were a good person. Hey, they weren’t perfect because who of us are? But you know what, they were loving. They were kind.”
Warwick F:
That’s the kind of, basically you want people to be talking in the eulogy and in the cemetery afterwards, you want them talking about values basically. Those key memories. And so then if that’s what you want, consider living in light of that today.
Gary S:
Right. So this is too good to pass up. So as you well know, and this actually proves two points of what we’ve been talking about, what I’m about to say Warwick, and you know what I’m going to say, that’s why you’re laughing. Listeners, my father passed away at the end of May and his funeral was just this past weekend. And I have family that lives, I’m in Wisconsin, my stepmother and my step siblings live in Florida. So we did a Facebook Live streaming thing of his service. And I gave the eulogy. So point number one that we talked about the water cooler is not there, everything’s on Zoom. How do you know that the people that you work for, how can you give them encouragement?
Gary S:
Well, you watched the live stream of my dad’s memorial service Warwick, which was incredibly touching to me. And you sent me this text afterwards, which said, “It was very moving, full of moments that made you laugh in moments that made you realize what a great dad your dad was.” You later said, and this gets to the point of what you’ve just been talking about, how do you want to be remembered? It wasn’t us being able to talk graveside about it, but it was us being able to talk on text. You said this, “I never met him yet after your eulogy, I felt I know him, both his eccentricities and what made his kids so proud of him.” That there is a real time example of living for legacy. Right? My dad was a police officer and he did indeed, at his ceremony as you noted as well he received from a police honor guard in my hometown he received a folded flag. It was very moving, but that wasn’t all he was.
Gary S:
And what I tried to capture in the eulogy was the way he lived his life and the funny things he did and the kind of odd things he did and that he wasn’t perfect. And all of those that jumble of things in his 93 years that made him, him. And that’s what you’re saying when you say live with your legacy. Look at your legacy. If you’re not treating people with kindness, dignity, and respect, think about your legacy. How are you going to be remembered? Are you going to be remembered as that jerk who did that? You don’t want to be there.
Warwick F:
Just to take this one step further, because I think this is such a great example. Because again, I’m sure your dad wasn’t perfect, none of us are. But when you think of your dad’s values and what you most remember about him, that boy he really lived that. What are the two or three things you’d say that exemplify who your dad was as a person, his values and how he lived it out, would you?
Gary S:
And one of the things I said in the eulogy, and I also wrote in something that I got published about it. One was, he was not afraid to say, I love you. And many men of his generation as I said, he was 93. He could show love, but my dad put words to it. “I love you.” And he said it from the time I was in short pants and that was enormously important to my emotional wellbeing growing up in the relationships I’ve had as a child right now in my marriage in my step parenting my step kids. That was an incredible value that he had. Another one was he wasn’t perfect, but he also apologized for his imperfections.
Gary S:
And that’s I’m jumping ahead, there’s a point up ahead where you talk about that. But he was, “Okay, I’m sorry. I did it that way.” That it was a common thing that happened to him. My brother and I went to visit him in his home in Florida last January, January 2020. And it was right before the pandemic. And my brother had did something that he was very kind of ashamed of, and that wasn’t a good thing. They got into kind of a spat. And my brother then apologized and was very remorseful and my brother said, “I’m sorry I acted like a jerk basically.” And my dad said, “Stand in line, I’ve been doing it my whole life.” So it was that ability to forgive, that ability to have grace for people was another thing that was huge about him.
Gary S:
And another thing that stuck out, you asked for two or three, I’ll give you three. The other thing was, he always signed cards to me himself. So many men in particular will have their wives sign. My mom and then my stepmom would have signed dad and mom or dad and Laura, he always signed it up until the last one I got in February of this year, my 56th birthday card. He signed it at age 93. That means something. That shows that he cared enough to be pulled away from whatever he was doing and do that signature himself. So yeah, those are three things that live on in his legacy that he’s remembered for.
Warwick F:
So as we just sort of summarize this, this is such a great example. Think of the legacy of Gary’s dad, Dale Schneeberger. That wouldn’t be a bad legacy to have the fact that people feel that his family I’m sure, friends, coworkers, that he loved them. That he was willing to forgive, that he was able to apologize. Think of that. If that was your legacy, I think you’d be thinking I’ll take that. That’s pretty good. I’m more than take that. And I’m sure you would, I’m sure your siblings would, friends, any of us would. So when you think of a life well lived, I mean, he was a policeman in Wisconsin. He wasn’t CEO, but what would you rather, the CEO who’s striving for money and power and nobody liked, or Dale Schneeberger? Whose legacy would you rather have?
Warwick F:
I think any sane person would say, I’ll take Dale Schneeberger’s legacy any day over some corporate CEO who’s all about greed and power. So think about what do you want your legacy to be? And that’s a pretty good example of a life well lived. So yeah. Is that okay?
Gary S:
And I think it’s a good bridge again, you’re building great on-ramps for the next points Warwick. It’s a good bridge to the next point in your blog. And that’s number four, which is seek significance, right? The idea of a life that’s not rooted in only your achievements. Is not rooted in what you do for a living. It’s a life of significance. And I would argue and I argued that in my eulogy, which was a Herculean effort. It was 93 things about my dad. So there was a lot of stuff in there-
Warwick F:
Because he was 93.
Gary S:
Great, because he was 93. So I did one for every year. But that all adds up to significance, living a life of significance. If you live with legacy in mind, it’s almost impossible not to live a life of significance, it seems to me.
Warwick F:
Absolutely, well said. So really we talk about all the time. I mean, it’s one of the key things, maybe the theme I’d say of Crucible Leadership is as you bounce back from your crucible moments, those times of setback and failure, you want to live a life of significance. A life dedicated to serving others and fulfilling a higher purpose. What do you want your legacy to be? That is a good clue to go back to understand what does significance mean to you. And I think for most sane people, it does not involve power, money and success. Not that success is wrong. You can be successful and significant. But it’s more living in line with your values. What do you want your life to count for? What do you want to be remembered for?
Warwick F:
And really seeking significance is probably another way of saying live your legacy today. Your legacy and your values are built up of small steps of minutes and hours and days and weeks and months. It’s what you do today. We’re all going to have times where we fall short and not our best self. I mean, that happens to me regularly, even yesterday. It happens all the time to me that we’re not as, hopefully not all the time, but not more often than I would like that I’m not living in light of my values and yeah, I’m sorry I blew that. Forgive me. One of the things I find is apologizing, and we’ll talk about this in a couple of points, apologizing to our husband or wife is one thing. Apologizing to your kids, somehow that’s harder, but I’ve done it.
Warwick F:
And it’s like grit my teeth and you know what, I’m going to do it. And it does get easier and fortunately they show grace, which is a beautiful thing. But you want to live in light of your legacy. You want to seek significance because at the end of the day, we’re only here for a breath. I mean in terms of millennia, we’ll live 70, 80, 90, a 100 maybe if you’re lucky, but most people will never get above that. We’re here for a breadth in terms of the millennia that’s gone past and will come. You want to be remembered well, and to be remembered well, you’ve got to seek significance at least in our opinion.
Gary S:
Again, we haven’t talked about this beforehand, but as you’ve just said that and it says from your blog you wrote “Success is illusory and can be temporary.” So true significance. But someone who fits the bill of someone who had both success, grand success, but lived with significance is someone you know of very well. And that’s your great, great grandfather John Fairfax, the founder of the family media company. Right at the end of his life. What was he most remembered for? In your book right here, Crucible Leadership coming out on October 19th in your book you talk about the way that his employees, because of the way he treated them, how they were touched and moved by his death. And it wasn’t all of his grand, all the money he made and all the papers he acquired that they remembered. It was the way he treated them the way he treated people.
Warwick F:
It’s so true. Yeah. He died in like 1877. So yeah, Victorian era and his employees said “We have lost a kind and valued employer.” Okay. A kind and valued friend or something like that. It’s like, that’s not 1800s kind of talk. This isn’t the age of touchy feely. This is the age where you got a paycheck and you were happy to get a paycheck and you weren’t talking about corporate culture and all that kind of thing. It was just if you get a paycheck and can feed your family and kids and got a roof over your head, you considered yourself fortunate. Yeah, he lived his legacy. He was a person of great faith. His wife loved him dearly.
Warwick F:
His kids loved him, his employees. He was an elder at church. He built a successful business, Sydney Morning Herald, and then more than that. But he lived his legacy and as I think of his legacy, I haven’t exactly lived out the business side. Obviously as listeners would know, with the whole $2 billion takeover that didn’t work. But in terms of his faith legacy and how he treats people, you better believe that is animating and motivating for me that if I could get like 10% of how he lived his life, I would consider my life well lived because he’s as a businessman of faith, I feel like it’s almost the gold standard. It’s just awe inspiring about how he treated people and his sense of values. And I mean, there’s a lot of stories that we could go on, but he would pay people back when he didn’t have to. He was bankrupted by an unscrupulous lawyer for a story he wrote in a paper in England. Judge ruled in John Fairfax’s favor saying the story was accurate. The lawyer kept suing him and eventually bankrupted him.
Warwick F:
He goes back I don’t know, a couple decades later or something long time later, he repaid his creditors. As everybody knows, when you’re bankrupt, you don’t have to repay your creditors, you’re wiped a claim. But not only did he do that, he repaid this guy who had passed away, his widow for their court costs. I mean, who does stuff like that? That’s just to me almost nuts, but his sense of generosity and forgiveness was awe inspiring. So yeah. Great example of somebody that is living a life of significance at a level that almost seems like it’s impossible to reach, but it’s always good to have goals to aim for.
Gary S:
Absolutely. The fifth point is to serve others and serve a higher purpose. Tied a bit to the fourth point, is there anything additional you have that you kind of want to add to that?
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, one of the things I say in here, I got this from Bryan Price at Seton Hall and leads the Buccino Leadership Institute there, he was a U.S. Army and he said they have a motto which is mission first, people always. And so really, you want to accomplish the goal and obviously in the military, their mission, you don’t succeed. It’s a matter of lives and national security. But I think you can achieve the mission, but you can also serve other people. And if you don’t have a cohesive team, well you probably won’t achieve the mission. So it’s really we define significance as serving others and serving a higher purpose. So I’d say serving others I think is understandable. It’s not about you, it’s about other people, but serving a higher purpose, it could be related to your faith, some philosophical tradition, but what do you really think life’s about?
Warwick F:
And maybe it’s a faith, it’s a religion, it’s a philosophy, but whatever you think life’s about, then you want to serve that purpose. Maybe you think that the world is a place that needs to be preserved in terms of nature and the environment. And we need to have a planet that’s cleaner than the one that we grew up with. Whatever your higher purpose is, live that higher purpose today.
Gary S:
Absolutely. And that is again, so many of these points listener focus on this idea of how do you capture showing people kindness, dignity, and respect. How do you do that? There’s three or four points in a row here about the importance of significance. About the importance of those things that are not of pursuing those things that are not temporal. Pursuing those things that are not maybe headline grabbing. About pursuing those things that are investing in other people, defining a life of significance. And here’s this point that we just went through is serving others and serving a higher purpose. That is the key. If you do that, I would argue, it seems I don’t know how you can lead a life of significance and to go back to the words you used in your blog, and be a jerk to people, right?
Gary S:
I mean it’s like one will blot out the other. If you’re truly pursuing a life of significance and you’re keeping track of your values and you’re making sure you’re not engaging in values drift, I think you will end up in that life of significance. However, that does not mean we’re perfect all the time as you’ve said. And I was going to say that at least at the sixth point, sometimes you’re going to get it wrong. Sometimes your wires are going to get crossed and you’re going to be in a position where you’re going to need to apologize.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. One other thing just occurred to me on serving others, you often hear people say like, “Life’s tough right now. Competition is tough and we just need to work harder, cut some corners in the sense of I’m not treating people as well as I’d like to, but the stuff’s got to get done and I don’t have time to babysit people.” The point is, really getting back to the mission first people always don’t justify this just because times are tough. It’s COVID, the economy’s tanking. Life’s tough at home. All of which are real. Okay? Sometimes the home life can just derail us and that’s understandable. A divorce, life, tragic things happened, and it may be understandable but no matter what’s happening to you, it never justifies how you treat other people. Don’t use that as an excuse. It’s a cop-out. It’s understandable, but don’t justify whether it’s stuff happening at home or stuff happening above you, corporate goals, it does not justify demeaning people.
Warwick F:
It does not justify being nasty and unkind. Nothing ever justifies that. So quit using that as an excuse to why it’s okay to not serve others and treat them kindly. Which gets to the next point.
Gary S:
There’s a connective issue to the next point. Number six, apologize. I’d argue that’s a lost art in our culture to some degree.
Warwick F:
It is. We live in a culture whether it’s politics or business or the media entertainment double down, triple down, never apologize. Because, apologizing is a sign of weakness. Well wrong, apologizing is a sign of strength. It means you admit that you’re not perfect. You admit there are days when … I mean why is apologizing hard at times? Because we have this image of ourselves as this perfect good person. And so when you have to apologize, you have to admit maybe I’m not as nice and as good as I would like to think. Maybe I’m not living my values. Maybe I’m not perfect. And so when you have, if you have your self esteem wrapped up in your values, I mean I believe self-esteem it should be from a faith perspective wrapped up in the fact that we’re child of God or just by the fact that we’re human, we have innate sense of worth. But you’ve gotta be willing to say, you’re sorry.
Warwick F:
Here’s the sad fact is we all again blow it and make mistakes. I don’t care who you are because given a certain stress and given a certain set of circumstances, sometimes you might think it’s tailor made to set us off. Whatever you do, don’t do A, B, C, and D to me. If you do that, I might lose control and get angry or say an unkind word. We all have our trigger points. That’s going to happen, it’s inevitable. So when that happens, you’ve got to be willing to apologize, and I’m not perfect in this, but try not to do the sorry if. I’m sorry if. Especially if it comes across as well, you’re way too sensitive. I did nothing really wrong, but if you’re such a baby and are sensitive I’m sorry, if that hurt you. Hopefully if you are really a big boy or a big girl, it wouldn’t hurt you, but since you’re not, I’m sorry if. Okay.
Warwick F:
That may be what’s being received. So a full-throated unqualified apology, I’m sorry. And don’t just say, “I’m sorry.” I’m sorry for what? I’m sorry because I did A, B and C. That’s the ideal, no ifs, and be specific.
Gary S:
And to add to that, please forgive me. Right? I mean that is important to say. I’m sorry and then ask of that person, please forgive me. That is again, another act of relational humility as you’re doing that, that helps. It’s hard to do what I call a Janet Jackson apology, right? When she had her wardrobe malfunction at the Super Bowl, she said, “I’m sorry if anyone was offended.” She didn’t say, “I’m sorry I did what I did.” And that’s what she should’ve done. It’s hard to do the if apologies, if you say “Please forgive me.” When you say that it is, it’s a very humbling thing. It’s a very humbling position to put you in and you will find over and over and over again, overwhelmingly people will indeed forgive you.
Warwick F:
Yeah. It’s almost a lost art. You’re not always going to live your values, but if you’re somebody that tries to live their values and you apologize back to Gary’s metaphor of running into a burning building. You will run into a lot of burning buildings for a boss that tries to live their values, doesn’t always succeed, but when they mess up, they apologize. You’ll be like, “Sign me up. Okay? I want to work for this guy. I want to work for this woman.” So that will breed tremendous loyalty because sadly it’s so rare.
Gary S:
Right. And the connection here we go to number seven, it’s you do that and it builds great personal capital, but it can also enhance financial capital. Your point seven, treating people with kindness, dignity, and respect can enhance success. You asked the question, how can that be? And then unpack it in the blog. How can that be Warwick?
Warwick F:
Think about it, who do you want to work for? An unkind gruff take no prisoners kind of boss that will fire you in a millisecond if he can find some person that’s better than you. Could care less about you as a person, never ask about your family, about your parents. It’s all business, all work and never gives you any praise, and at the least smallest mistake, you’ve got 99 things right, you do one thing wrong and they just chew you out. People are going to leave that person. They’re going to especially those I say the best and the brightest, the people that have the most options, they’ll leave. And so yeah, you want to work for an organization whose mission you care about. You want to feel like it’s being well run and financially stable. All of those I think are a given with most employees with most team members, but a lot of things you want to work for.
Warwick F:
You want to work for a person, a vision that’s helpful, but you ask people, they want to work for somebody they respect, they admire. And a big part of respecting and admiring somebody is how they’re living their values. Are they treating people kindly? Do they listen? If your CEO happens to walk into your cubicle and just says, “Hey, how’s it going? How’s the family?” If they remember your name and ask just some personal thing, you’re like how in the world can they know who I am all the way down here in the organization? It matters a huge amount. And so those kinds of leaders, whether it’s your boss or several layers above you, that creates a culture where it’s you model for those around you how people should be treated and then others start doing that.
Warwick F:
I mean, it’s probably not a perfect analogy. I think in tennis two of the top tennis players, Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer, they always have the sense of dignity and respect for people. And you can see that affects not everybody in tennis, but there’s this culture that it tends to influence. It’s like okay, if I want to be great like especially those two. And I think probably more than that, part of that’s not just being a good tennis player, but how I treat people. Am I gracious in defeat? So yeah, that kind of thing can make an enormous difference to the bottom line and to your ability to attract good people. There’s no secrets in life. I mean, my kids from their 30 to 20s, they go on sites like Glassdoor in which basically is a website that evaluates most companies in this country and elsewhere.
Warwick F:
And it’s like, okay, so how’s the organization? How are people treated? They have rating scales. Do you want to be on Glassdoor as the company that’s like, they chew people out, they treat people horrendously, run, leave. Don’t even think about applying to this place. Information’s out there. Don’t think that you that can fool people it’s out there. So you want to be successful. You don’t want to be one of those companies to be blunt that it gets a horrendous Glassdoor rating. What’s that going to do for you? You want a good Glassdoor rating if you want to get good people. So treat people with kindness, dignity, and respect. It makes not just a business, it makes moral sense. It makes business sense. Just do it.
Gary S:
Well just do it is in addition to being a slogan of a very famous company, is also what the captain has done now with the, fasten seatbelt sign and the plane is coming down for a landing. Before we get to the landing, I want to give you a chance to kind of sum up Warwick. But I want to add one thing to our discussion that I found from that Harvard Business Review article. As we talk about listener, the importance of treating people with dignity and respect and kindness. This just leapt out at me in this business article in HBR that they found in research, the Harvard Business Review found this, giving compliments can make us even happier than receiving them. That is the if for no other reason of the things that we’ve talked about here, if personal happiness and enjoying your work and having great relationships. If that’s important to you, giving compliments, being kind, those kinds of things can make us even happier research shows, than receiving such things ourselves.
Gary S:
That to me is a pretty big point. So where do you want to leave our listeners today Warwick before we go?
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, I just want to touch on two final points. One that you just mentioned. It’s so true. One of my highest values is encouraging. I have an aphorism if you will, if you see something, say something if it’s positive. And so I’ve been on a couple of non-profit boards and if I see somebody doing a good job, I’ll say, “Thank you so much for doing X.” And I’ll be specific about why I think that was so wonderful. And yeah I don’t do it to make me feel good, but it does. When you’re living your values, you maybe begin to have a bit more respect for yourself. You say, “You know what, today was a good day. Maybe yesterday I blew it. But today I actually said something nice. I did something nice for somebody.”
Warwick F:
It does make you feel better about yourself. We’re human. We want to respect ourselves. We know when we’ve messed up. So it does. And kind of one final thing is that if you want to treat people with kindness, dignity, and respect, part of it, and we haven’t touched on it much and we don’t have time to, but I’ll just briefly mention it. You got to do some self-care. And so whether it’s exercise, running, whatever it is, or walk in nature, getting in touch with your spiritual values, prayer, whatever it is. Maybe a hobby, painting, a creative thing, whatever it takes, you want to be able to do some self care so that when you turn up at work, you can be your best self.
Warwick F:
So that is some of that stuff begins at home is take care of the relationships you value, do some of that internal weeding and self care, so that it’s easier for yourself to show off the kindness, dignity, and respect. And so apologizing is good. What’s better is minimizing the number of times you have to apologize because you’re actually living more in line with your values. And so apologizing is important, but ideally, it would be nice if you didn’t have to quite so much. You don’t want to have to say “Well, I’m good at apologizing and my family and coworkers have forgiven me 20 times today.” That’s asking a little bit too much grace, that many mistakes in one day with one person.
Warwick F:
So yeah, it’s time to live your values, live your values today. You want to be a great leader, show people kindness, dignity, and respect, live what you believe today, it will make you feel better about yourself. And you’ll actually do better at work too. So it’s a win-win.
Gary S:
Bingo. Four point landing planes on the tarmac. Bravo. Well done. We’re going to wrap up today listener with as Warwick does in all of his blogs, he leaves the reader and I’ll leave you the listener with three points of reflection on everything that we talked about here today. Point one, how well are you treating the people around you, including your friends and family. We’ve talked about this a lot in a business context, but let’s move it out of the business context as well. How well are you treating the people around you including friends and family? That’s sort of reflection number one. Reflection number two, how well do others around you think you are treating them? That’s where the rubber can meet the road, right? You may think you’re doing X, Y, and Z, and you may be doing Q, L and P, reconcile those things by reaching out, talking to other, doing either in a professional context, a 360 evaluation or a 360 kind of assessment with friends and family.
Gary S:
And then the third point of reflection is what one thing will you do this week to treat those around you with kindness, dignity, and respect? You probably, we hope you got some ideas from our conversation today. If you didn’t write them down, if they’re not sticking in your head, go back, listen to the episode again and find one thing you can do today. You can do right now. Press pause on this podcast right now and go do that thing today. Because that, as we said at the outset, what we try to do at Crucible Leadership, our goal, our mission, our vision is to give you hope and healing to move beyond your crucibles and learning the lessons from your crucibles. Applying them as you go to lead a life of significance is the way that you do that.
Gary S:
So, listener until the next time we are together, please remember that your crucible experiences are indeed difficult. We know that. Warwick knows that, he’s talked many times about his crucible experiences. But, as he’s discovered and as our guests on the show have discovered week after week, after week, we’ve brought their stories to you. Your crucible is not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of that crucible, if you apply those lessons, if you do things like we’re talking about today and treat people with dignity, kindness, and respect, it can in fact be your crucible experience. It can in fact be a rewarding time in your life. It can be not the end of your story, but the beginning of a new chapter of your story that can be the best chapter of your story. Because at the end of that chapter, the final period on the final sentence, on the final page of that chapter is one that leads you to, that brings you to a life of significance.
Are you tolerating something in your life that is leading to chaos and crisis … and causing or at least giving oxygen to the crucibles you’re facing? It could be something you’re thinking that’s tripping you up … or something someone else is doing that’s holding you back. Discover how to master your mindset from Gina L. Osborn, an Army veteran and former FBI special agent who knows firsthand that crises can be managed and chaos can be controlled even though change is inevitable. From establishing and living from your core values to creating boundaries, from calling for backup when you need it and avoiding those vision-killing tolerations … she offers practical action steps to help you chart your unique path to a life of significance.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Gina O:
We can choose to live in chaos or we can choose not to. And really what I believe is the chaos that we bring into our lives is based on what we tolerate in our lives and whether that’s relationships with our kids, with our workplaces, at home, really, if you think about, okay, even just as easy as the boxes in the garage that’s making me crazy. Every time I pull into the garage, I see those boxes and it’s weighing me down. So one toleration really isn’t that big of a deal, but when you layer these tolerations from work and home and neighbors and this and that and children and spouses, that’s when we start to become overwhelmed. So if we start with eliminating those tolerations, we’re going to have a lot more space to work with what we’re dealing with then, and keep chaos from turning into crisis.
Gary S:
So what are you tolerating in your life that may be leading to chaos and crisis and causing or at least giving oxygen to the crucibles you’re facing? It could be something you’re thinking that’s tripping you off or something someone else’s doing that’s holding you back. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. This week, Warwick and I talk with Gina L. Osborn, an army veteran and former FBI special agent who knows firsthand that crises can be managed and chaos can be controlled even though change is inevitable. From establishing and living from your core values to creating boundaries, from calling for backup when you need it and avoiding those vision killing tolerations, she offers practical action steps to help you chart your unique path to a life of significance.
Warwick F:
Well, Gina, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it. I just love what you do with helping folks, business leaders, executives navigate chaos, crisis and change. I feel like we live in the world that’s increasingly chaotic and increasingly uncertain and changing. And maybe I have a feeling things aren’t going to get more certain, they may get less certain, probably not more certain. So the need for what you do, I don’t know if it’s fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it is going to increase. So what can we do, but you’re here to help folks navigate through the chaos and uncertainty. So I love that.
Warwick F:
So before we get to some of what you do, you’ve had an amazing career in US Army Counterintelligence, the FBI, but I’d love to just start with a bit of the origin story of Gina Osborn of how you grew up. And just you had some challenges and a little bit of chaos yourself growing up, so just talk about some of that to the backstory of Gina.
Gina O:
I did. Well, I grew up in Orange County, California. And I always wanted to write, and I was very interested in being this international woman of intrigue. I wanted to go out and I wanted to be a spy. When I was in high school, I was fascinated with the CIA and the KGB and the Cold Car, everything that was going on there. And so in my second year of college, I sat down in the library of my college and a young man came up to me and started telling me about the Army’s Counterintelligence program where not only could I get this great experience, but I could go off and be a spy. And so I said, “Okay, that’s great.” And I could also get my four year degree.
Gina O:
And so the next day I went down and I enlisted. And about six months later, I was in Europe chasing spies. And it was really a great thing for me. I was always a dreamer. I grew up in a single parent alcoholic household. And so I really understood how to live in chaos and how to survive in chaos. So really going out into the uncertainty of the Counterintelligence world that really helped me out quite a bit.
Warwick F:
That’s amazing. And I have a feeling, often the seeds of gifting can emerge in challenging, chaotic situations. So I think you mentioned having a challenging upbringing and maybe an alcoholic. From what I understand, there’s a whole level of uncertainty, because who people are can be different. If they’re drinking, it’s one person, if they’re not. So what are they going to be like today? There’s a lot of uncertainty. What was your experience? Well, how would you describe maybe the chaos or the uncertainty as you grew up? How would you describe that?
Gina O:
I just remember riding my bike home from school, riding down the street and just wondering what was going to be waiting for me on the other side of the door. Sometimes it was okay. Other times it was pandemonium. So yeah, I think that really taught me how to be calm in the middle of a war zone. It also taught me how to be a chameleon, and that really helped me in my investigative life and working undercover in the Army, because I learned how to act and how to be in order to maintain some calm out of the chaos.
Warwick F:
It’s interesting. Sometimes when people go through a family where there’s uncertainty and alcoholism, it can I don’t know about destroy, but it can devastate kids. You can somehow think, and I’m not a psychologist, it’s my fault, how could it be your fault, but somehow it’s seems, and you obviously understand this better than I do, but you didn’t choose the sense of this is going to destroy me or it’s my fault. How did you choose a path of resilience and strength, because I have a feeling, not everybody chooses your path. What helped you lead you to where you are and choosing a different path? And some do, perhaps maybe that’s the wrong way to put it, but you know what I’m getting at.
Gina O:
Sure. Well, I think with me, I had a choice between being ordinary and extraordinary. And being ordinary was really something that did not sit well with me. So being extraordinary was really my only option. And I didn’t want to live and die in the scenario that I spent my teenage years in. And I wound up never drinking, never doing drugs. And that definitely helped me get into the FBI for sure. But really I think we all have choices to make and we don’t have to get into the cycle of what we grew up in. We can veer off the path and do something that’s going to be better for us. And that’s something that I chose.
Gary S:
And that’s an interesting way of expressing it, because a lot of folks who grow up in an environment like you’ve described, they’re just hoping for ordinary. Their life is anything but ordinary in a bad way. You had the courage, the vision, the hope, whatever it was, to aim beyond ordinary, to go for extraordinary. What do you think it was about your constitution that gave you that vision for that next step, that next rung?
Gina O:
Well, Gary, I was a big dreamer. And you have a choice between getting involved in all of the chaos or just dreaming about other things. And I dreamed of going to foreign countries. And I read books that took me far away. And really, again, looking for the extraordinary, looking for something that’s greater than just who I am, being part of something bigger than myself. And when I went down to the army recruiter, I had no idea that it was really going to change the path. And I was afraid to leave, because I didn’t know what was going to happen to my parent and whether or not they were going to survive me not being there, being part of the whole scenario. But that was the best thing that I could have done probably for both of us. And I was very fortunate that my alcoholic parent wound up stopping, they stopped drinking and have been sober for over 30 years. So I think it worked out for all of us.
Warwick F:
That’s awesome. So you’re in college and you’re thinking about even as you were growing up, sort of being a spy, if you will, or just it was in your mind, but it’s not like you necessarily go to say, “Hey, excuse me, I want to be a spy.” It sounds like more often than not that you’re chosen. How did that initial discussion happen? Because I know it’s a bit of a dance, but how did that happen that they found you, if you will?
Gina O:
I wanted to work for the CIA. And like I said, in my second year of college, I don’t know who this individual was, I don’t know where he came from, I had never seen him before, but he contacted me in that library and started and planted the seed. And it definitely worked.
Gary S:
That’s how secret agents work. They hangout in libraries and they find people who are reading books about that stuff.
Warwick F:
Do you ever think to yourself, “Okay, what is it about me that would make somebody approach me? What is it about me that said, boy, this person is spy material?”
Gina O:
Or he was just trying to pick me up, we don’t know.
Warwick F:
Did he ever ask you for a date?
Gina O:
He did not. He never asked me for my phone number. It was like an angel coming down, because I think of how would my life have not changed had that not happened? I don’t know. It definitely put me on a whole another path and that’s why I’m a big believer and I tell people to really listen when something, opportunity comes knocking, because you definitely want to be able to take advantage of it when you can. And I did, and it completely changed my life.
Warwick F:
And I think there’s some flexibility there that you were thinking maybe CIA, but you probably, at that point, didn’t think about, well, there’s Army and there’s Army Counterintelligence. You might not have even known about it in college. So it wouldn’t have been like, well, Army, no, I’m thinking CIA. At a college, you’re not seeing that as the same, but somehow. So, okay, this person approached you and then the next step was what you said, “Okay, well, let me check this out.” What was the next step for you that led you to that army recruiting office?
Gina O:
That was the next day. I just went down and I put on my black and white polka dotted dress and my fuchsia hat, because it was the 80s and went into that army recruiting office. And they thought I was nuts. And I took the test and I went off the charts on the test and they said, “Okay, you can qualify for this counterintelligence bit, if this is what you want to do.” And I said yes. And eight months later I was eating dirt at Fort Jackson, South Carolina in basic training. And that was the beginning of it.
Warwick F:
Wow. Sure. I don’t know quite what lessons there are, maybe be yourself. I don’t know quite what the lesson there is, but that is so amazing. So talk about that period, because that was… I think, you were in the army for six years, something like that and in part during the Cold War era. So talk about those years where you had this dream of espionage and you were doing that. So talk about those years, because not everybody comes right out of college and is doing what they’d grew up dreaming about. That doesn’t often happen.
Gina O:
Right. And I ended up only two years of college. I enlisted in the Army.
Warwick F:
Right.
Gina O:
Yes, it was. So my first assignment was in Belgium and I was at an air base outside of the Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, and I was responsible for the United States mission to NATO. And it was just a great, amazing experience working with all of these different nations that were coming together at this headquarters. And then my last three and a half years was when I was actually assigned to a team that investigated the highest profile espionage cases in the European Theater. And we were on the road probably about 10 months out of the year, undercover, doing a variety of different things. And that was the dream come true. And fortunately, I had to get my degree, because my dream was to work for the CIA. And so at midnight I’d be there in a car with my little blue suitcase writing out my term papers, trying to get my degree and I wound up getting it. And I was very fortunate with that. And I didn’t go with the CIA. I wound up with the FBI.
Warwick F:
That’s serious commitment to be espionage by day and studying by night. And clearly you were determined, you were making choices, I want to make a difference. What about this field, obviously, you were attracted to, but what made you think, I want to do this, this is important, this is what I want to spend my life doing in some sense?
Gina O:
I just being of service really I get a lot of gratification from serving my country. I’m a patriot. I really enjoyed being in the military. I love the camaraderie that came with that and that followed me into the FBI with all of these amazing people. And I wanted really to have adventures that I can write about. That was another thing that I always wanted to do was write. So just going out and getting experiences that was something that I really wanted to do. And it’s interesting. When I went into the FBI, I thought I would be going anywhere USA, because they don’t tell us before we get to the academy. And I wound up coming home. My first arrest was across the street from my high school. So I was very, very fortunate to be able to come back home and represent the FBI in my hometown.
Gary S:
And they didn’t have you go to the library and try to recruit?
Gina O:
I never had to do that.
Gary S:
Awesome.
Warwick F:
It was a different process.
Gina O:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Obviously, you mentioned service. What you were doing was saving lives, protecting our country. Obviously what you were doing was important and you felt like this isn’t just a job, it’s a mission that you feel called to do that was important. It’s not just making widgets or something. Nothing wrong with that, but you felt like this was a higher calling.
Gina O:
Definitely.
Warwick F:
There was a higher purpose in you. To me, when we talk about a life of significance, it’s using the gifts that you’ve been given for a higher purpose to serve others; you were a higher purpose, protect your country and serving others, protecting others. Your job does save lives in counter espionage, obviously. So you’re doing that for six years and had incredible experiences. And the dream was the CIA. So how did the FBI happen and not the CIA? So talk about that, because it’s still part of the mission, but it’s not quite the original high school college game plan. So talk about that whole shift.
Gina O:
Well, after the six years of doing double duty, getting my degree and getting all that experience with the military, I put in for the CIA and it was a time where the government was downsizing and I didn’t get in. So that was devastating, because I had spent all of that time with that dream in mind and I didn’t get it. So I had to sit back and I had to think about it and I had to get off my pity pot and said, “Okay, if this isn’t going to happen, then we need to find something else that’s going to really hit on all of those things that I want to do.” And I applied for the FBI and I stepped through a four year hiring freeze and I wound up getting in, in 1996.
Warwick F:
So did you have to wait to get in, because of the hiring freeze?
Gina O:
I did. So it was a hiring freeze plus another year and a half that it took for them to process me to get through all the hoops that it takes to get into the FBI. So yeah.
Warwick F:
Wow. So you had to keep yourself employed while that was happening. So that must’ve been frustrating. Did you look back and say, “I have had six years as a Counterintelligence special agent, why wouldn’t the CIA want me? I’m as qualified as anybody, qualified, more qualified than many. You probably knew friends, colleagues, and it’s like that person got in seriously and not me? I don’t know. Are they the son or daughter of the director? What’s going on here?”
Gina O:
Well, and that’s where you have to, like I said, get off the pity pot and realize that, okay… I always knew that I would be participating in something bigger than myself. I always had that belief and I had that dream. And I just had to believe that, “Okay, if the CIA isn’t where I’m supposed to be, there’s going to be something much better coming down the pike.” So sometimes when we don’t get what we want, that’s actually a gift we have to wait, because there might be something even better coming down the road. And for me, the FBI in my experience there, was just absolutely amazing. Having the opportunity to represent my agency in my hometown, I have been able to travel the world, I was able to spend time at headquarters and just work with and lead such amazing people. So yeah, it was much better I think, than what I thought was going to be my dream.
Warwick F:
So it’s funny how, again, important lesson. Sometimes we have a dream and it was still intelligence. It was just probably domestic, obviously FBI. So sometimes we have a particular idea of what that dream will be, but whether you think of it as the universe, God, some force somewhere, sometimes, I don’t know, maybe there is a power or source that knows better than we do. Or I don’t know, sometimes maybe it’s idealistic to think if things work out for the best, but do you look back and say, “You know what? Maybe I wouldn’t have chosen this path, but I’m grateful for 22 years in the FBI and it worked out.” I don’t know whether it’s for the best, but you were gratified by that experience. You didn’t feel like, “Oh boy, I lost out.” You felt fulfilled that this was worthwhile, those 22 years. Correct?
Gina O:
Right. Absolutely. And it was better than the CIA ever would have been. I had already lived outside of the country for six years and so really having the opportunity to be home, like I said. And I don’t know, it was really, really great plus I didn’t work intelligence for long. I wound up going onto work Asian organized crime and Counter-Terrorism. And then I ended up for the last 11 years working cyber. So the FBI definitely took me on a ride I never expected, but it was the best thing that ever could’ve happened.
Warwick F:
Wow, that’s amazing. So now you’re in Southern California at the moment. Is that where you worked for most of the years you’re with the FBI in that area?
Gina O:
Yes. So I was assigned to the Los Angeles Field Office for the entire 22 years. And I did 18 months during that time at FBI Headquarters in order to be able to promote into the executive ranks.
Warwick F:
So you can serve the country, but yet being near family too?
Gina O:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Warwick F:
Not everybody gets to do that.
Gina O:
All three of my roommates wound up going to New York and I got to go home. So I was very fortunate. But again, that’s where you have to just believe and listen to your gut. And even though it was devastating when I didn’t make it into the CIA, I just had to really just believe that there is a path for me, there is a place for me and long as you believe it and you can envision it, you can make it happen.
Warwick F:
And so as you look back on your 22 years in the FBI, and obviously you had a lot of amazing things you were working on, were there some lessons that you learnt as your take away, “Boy, I’m so grateful for this experience because…” What were some of those for you personally, anyway, those key takeaways that it meant so much to you?
Gina O:
When I look back on my career, what I find most gratifying, it’s not the arrests that I made. Although, I appreciate that experience. It’s not the experiences of working on task forces. Really what I am most grateful for and what I am most proud of is developing the leaders that came up behind me when I became an executive, and really teaching them the things that I knew, watching them, allowing them to make mistakes as a leader. And you don’t really get that opportunity very often, but it’s just so important for people to have that sense of security that if they make a mistake, it’s okay because that’s how we succeed is by making mistakes. So I think looking back, the people were phenomenal and still continue to be phenomenal, but I would say just having that opportunity to be a leader and develop leaders coming up behind me was really what was my legacy.
Warwick F:
And that’s so important, because often our image anyway in government, in general, is bureaucracy, play it safe, don’t make mistakes, ask for a bigger budget each year, because you use it or lose it, all of these things that people in the private sector have a view of government. But in the work that you do in the FBI, you’re always going to make mistakes. Obviously you want to limit the consequences of those mistakes. I get that. You can’t make major mistake after major mistake. There are consequences there too, but if you play it so safe, I would’ve thought ultimately lives could be in the balance. I have a hunch that there’s something about X avenue of inquiry that my gut tells me based on, I don’t know, whatever it was at the time, 10 years of experience, an informed gut instinct, put it that way. I really need to investigate this.
Warwick F:
Gina, there’s something about this that smells funny. I want to spend a week or two or whatever. I’m sure you’ve had those conversations often and it may turn out, gee, I spent two weeks and nothing came up. Well, you could say, well, you just wasted two weeks of my budget. Well, what are you thinking? You probably had a lot of those conversations, I’m guessing.
Gina O:
Well, no. When I talk about mistakes, I’m talking more of leadership mistakes. So my parameters were as long as no taxpayers’ money was spent or wasted and as long as no lives were in jeopardy at all. But it’s important for leaders to be able to make decisions and feel confident in their decisions. Even though I had a lot more experience and I saw, “Hey, this is a rabbit hole, we may not want to go down,” sometimes you have to let your leaders make these type of mistakes, minor mistakes, just to be able to learn those lessons, because I think the greatest lessons that have so much impact on us are the ones where we did make the mistakes. Those who don’t want to make mistakes, I believe, that is fear based. If you create an environment where you’re afraid to make mistakes and none of your people are allowed to make mistakes, because it’s going to reflect negatively on you, that’s not the type of environment with high morale and high productivity. So that’s something-
Warwick F:
If you’re trying micromanage your employees, because I know best, which you probably did after 10, 15 years of experience, wherever you were at the time, but if they don’t learn, they don’t grow.
Gina O:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
And eventually you won’t be there to hold their hand forever. There’ll be new managers, maybe they’ll be in your position 10, 20 years down the track. If they’re being afraid to fail, then how are they going to help their leaders?
Gina O:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
So you can’t give them 1,000 page rule book and saying, “Okay, follow all this, and before you even think of thinking, ask me first,” right?
Gina O:
And so when you do that, you take all the creativity away from these people. And I worked with cyber people who are wildly creative. And if you micromanage in that environment, and that environment is extended out to the new generation that is coming up, because they don’t want to be told what to do either, you take a lot of creativity away when you say, “Okay, go ahead and do that, but do it this way,” as opposed to, “Okay, go ahead and do that,” and if they have a way to do it that is just as good as your way, let them do it their way. Why impose the old way or the routine way of doing it? Why not let them have more creativity, because when they feel like they own the project, they’re going to want to come to work every day and the morale is going to be higher.
Gary S:
I sense that we’re about to turn a corner in a little bit and get into what you’re doing today. But I want to make sure listeners caught the import of the last five minutes of this conversation, Gina. And that is this, you said, and then you talked in telling three different stories about it. You said that as you look back at your career in the FBI, and there’s all kinds of things that happened there that you accomplished, that your team’s accomplished, that you can’t even tell us, right? True things that preserved liberty and saved lives and remove bad people, lots of stuff there. But you said the most rewarding part for you in that experience was leading your team.
Gary S:
And that is something folks who are listening, likely not in the FBI, maybe you manage a shoe store, maybe you are an entrepreneur who has a small team under you, but it’s that leadership of your team, regardless of where you’re doing it, whether it’s the global stage of espionage or it’s the local neighborhood soda shop. Those are the things that are important. And we have to remember, I think, the name of the brand that we’re representing right is Crucible Leadership. And that’s what we want to do. We want to convey leadership principles and this idea of, regardless of what you’re doing as a leader, pour into your team, because that’s where the gratification is going to come and that’s where the growth in those who are supporting you is going to come and they’re going to be able to support others down the road.
Gina O:
Absolutely. And I always surrounded myself with great teams. That was always throughout my entire career, being surrounded by great teams and choosing your teams wisely. That’s very, very important.
Warwick F:
Such a good point. So I want to talk a bit about you ended up leaving the FBI and starting your own business. I’d say work with business leaders, organization leaders, navigate chaos, crisis and change. You’ve got this great piece you put out, seven key ways to eliminate chaos from your business and your life. So talk about that decision to leave the FBI and go in a different arena, because after six years in the Army, 22 years in the FBI, that was a huge decision. So talk about that transition.
Gina O:
Sure. Yes. Well, I was eligible to retire and I had been for a couple of years. And really what I wanted to do was my childhood dream of writing. And so I’ve been writing and I’ve been writing television shows. I am working on a book, I’m working on a variety of different things, but writing and telling stories is what I really, really wanted to do. So I’ve got two different podcasts. One is a True Crime Podcast called Behind The Crime Scene. The other is called Lead Like a Lady where I interview remarkable women who have made it to the top in male dominated fields. So really I just am pursuing the other dream that I had when I was a child and going after being a storyteller and a writer and helping people along the way with my executive coaching.
Warwick F:
Boy, that is awesome. A lot of different things. So when you’re writing is one of the things like writing novels, like spy espionage novels, is that one of the strands you’re thinking of or?
Gina O:
So it’s more on the television route. And all of the shows that I am pitching are strong female leads and in law enforcement. So I’m taking the experiences that I earned over the last 28 years and I’m putting them into practice.
Warwick F:
Okay. Yeah. I love reading all those things and shows. I’m reminded of one you’re probably aware of, was it Covert Affairs. You ever saw that show? It also had a very strong female lead. Now, I’ll probalby botch this, I want to say, Piper Perabo, maybe she was the lead…
Gary S:
Wow, good job Warwick.
Gina O:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
And she didn’t fit the mold that was convince people I can do this, even though somehow she wasn’t out of the CIA recruiting manual. I don’t want to get the whole storyline. Which is great, because you want young leaders, young women leaders to say, “Hey, this could be me in espionage or just in general.” Is that would be a fair statement of part of your mission or what you feel called to at least in part?
Gina O:
Well, just empowering. I really enjoy empowering women. And I’ve worked a lot with female executives and mostly who are the only women in the room, because I was the only woman in the room so often, being a woman in law enforcement and dating back into the 80s. So yes, just taking the experiences that I have. And the reason why I chose chaos, crisis and change is just because I was presented with that, on a routine basis in law enforcement and learning how to eliminate chaos from our lives. And that’s what my eBook is about, because that’s a choice.
Gina O:
We can choose to live in chaos or we can choose not to. And really what I believe is the chaos that we bring into our lives is based on what we tolerate in our lives. And whether that’s relationships, whether that’s whatever, with our kids, with our workplaces at home, really, if you think about, okay, even just as easy as the boxes in the garage that’s making me crazy. Every time I pull into the garage, I see those boxes and it’s weighing me down. So one toleration really isn’t that big of a deal, but when you layer these tolerations from work and home and neighbors and this and that and children and spouses, that’s when we start to become overwhelmed. So if we start with eliminating those tolerations, we’re going to have a lot more space to work with what we’re dealing with then, and keep chaos from turning into crisis.
Warwick F:
Boy, it’s true. Clutter, whether it’s of your mind or home or office or tasks, it can overwhelm you and stop you thinking clearly. So it makes so much sense. So as I’m looking at the list of the things you have in the eBook you mentioned, it’s interesting the first one you mentioned is establishing core values. You talk about commit to those values daily. Talk about why that’s a good place to start in terms of eliminating chaos and creating clarity. Why is establishing core values so important?
Gina O:
Well, really knowing who you are and what type of life you want to live, that’s where we start. And then we think about priorities past that. What are the priorities right now? Because everything can’t be a priority, especially when we’re trying to eliminate the chaos from our lives. So knowing who we are and what we expect from people and setting boundaries around ourselves and teaching people how to treat us, to eliminate this conflict and chaos that’s coming at us maybe on a daily basis, that’s why it’s so important. And those are other parts in the eBook that I talk about is being able to create those boundaries and eliminating those tolerations and teaching people how we want to be treated.
Warwick F:
It’s like how do you create those boundaries and tolerations if you don’t know who you are and what your core values are.
Gina O:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
You have no way of doing that. I imagine maybe it’s not as bad as it used to be in 60s, 70s, 80s, for young women leaders. Although I’m sure it’s a bit like when we talk about racial diversity, there’s a spectrum, there’s may have been an improvement, but there’s probably a fair ways to go, I’m guessing, or at least somewhat.
Gina O:
When I entered the FBI in 1996, 14% of the agents were women. And when I left in 2018, it had only risen to 20% of the agent population were women. So it really didn’t go up all of much.
Warwick F:
That’s staggering. It’s not like objectively physical strength is so vital. Therefore, you can’t have 50, 50, I’m guessing. The number one attribute to be a good FBI agent isn’t… I’m just trying to think of some objective reason, isn’t physical strength. There’s a lot more to just… What I’m saying is there’s no real objective reason for why it should be 14 or 20%.
Gina O:
Right. Well, I think a lot of it is the average age going through the FBI Academy is 31 years old. And because it’s a second career, that’s why it’s the premier law enforcement agency in the world, because they hire the best of the best, the cream of the crop. And when I went through only 1% of all of the candidates, the applicants were actually getting into a seat at the Academy. So yes. And really I thought the FBI had hired me, because I was a woman number one and because I had all this great Counterintelligence experience, but I only worked Counterintelligence for about 15 minutes in the FBI.
Gina O:
And as I look back, what they hired me for was my problem solving skills, my ability to create relationships, my ability to network and solve problems. So really they’re looking at a person as a whole, whether you’re a zookeeper or a doctor or a lawyer, an accountant or a military person. The FBI is looking for somebody who has those things, because when 9/11 happened, the majority of us were working criminal. We weren’t working terrorism. So we had to make the shift and learn to become terrorism experts within the FBI more so than they already had. So that’s the type of people that the FBI was looking for.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. So just before we move on from core values, I would assume you want to teach young leaders, young women leaders to be in organizations that fit who you are, that respect your values, where there’s a fit. Maybe that’s obvious, but does that make some degree of sense?
Gina O:
I think it’s important for you to like where you’re working and being in a place where you’re appreciated. But I think a lot of time we are our own worst enemies when it comes to self sabotage. And as women, sometimes we feel that we have to be completely or overqualified for a job before we’ll even put in for a job. Whereas men are more likely to put in for jobs where they’re not qualified and they’ll get those jobs. So really, I think we, as women working in male dominated fields take on, well, we have to be perfect and we have to be qualified and we have to do this and we have to do that, when really these are the things that we’re putting on ourselves.
Warwick F:
You’re creating your own barriers and boundaries. I’ve read articles and studies saying that women are far less likely to ask for a raise than a man is, well, I don’t know if I deserve it kind of thing. A man will be like, “My boss may say no, but I’ve got a family to support and I think I’m worth it. And what the heck, let’s see what happens,” right?
Gina O:
Yes. And that’s why we shouldn’t allow the rules that we put on ourselves to remain. And that’s what I do when I’m working with female executives is to remove those obstacles. I have a six week executive bootcamp and it’s not for the faint of heart, let me just say. Whether you’re a man or a woman, you really need to be ready to change, because what we do is we take that obstacle that has been standing in our way for most of our lives and we remove it, but the people have to be committed to wanting to do that in order for us to be successful in this program, because I’ve been through bootcamp and I can make an experience where it feels like bootcamp, but I’m very supportive and I want to make sure that my clients get what it is that they’ve fought so hard for.
Gina O:
But removing those obstacles is so important, because if you think about the obstacles that are in your way, ask yourself, how many of these obstacles are self imposed and how many of these are actual obstacles? And if it’s through negative talk or it’s because we have this perception of some sort, I would say question it. And if it’s not real or it’s not tangible, if it’s not something that’s truly holding you back, then get through that wall. Go around it, go under it, go over it, but get through the wall.
Warwick F:
I think that I just want to just camp on this a little bit, because we talk a lot in Crucible Leadership about being authentic and whether it’s women or men. Sometimes we feel like we’ve got to be a certain person to fit within the organization. You can be who you are authentically and still be successful rather than, “Oh, what do they want me to be?” So probably not a terrific example, but I love sports as much as the next guy, but I also like history and music, and that’s not the typically let’s hang out in the pub or the bar and swap interesting history anecdotes. It’s just not the typical thing that you do necessarily from a male perspective. But it’s like, “Well, okay, I like sports, but there’s a lot of other things in life I enjoy too.” I wouldn’t say I’m an artist, but I grew up in a family that loved art and music.
Warwick F:
There’s rather than thinking, oh wow, that’s not going to go over well in this environment. My impression is FBI agents don’t sit around talking about, gee, what’s your favorite classical music composer or something. Maybe they do, but rather than saying, “Gosh, I like classical music, therefore, I better not tell anybody, because I’ll just get razzed.” It’s like silly stuff, just be yourself, whatever it is you enjoy. Does that make sense? Stop being so afraid of what everybody else thinks you should be.
Gina O:
And that’s where we as leaders, we lose our authenticity by taking on the traits of others because we want to fit in. I learned that from the very beginning, because I was trying to, being in the Army and then going into the FBI where I was definitely a minority. And I would take on the characteristics of my male counterparts and be tough and strong and this and that, but then all that caused was okay, I’m insecure because I’m not being perfect at these leadership traits that I’ve taken from other people. And I have all of these other issues that are coming up, because I’m not leading authentically.
Gina O:
And it wasn’t until I became the head of the cyber program for FBI Los Angeles, where I couldn’t lead from the front. And that was my leadership style that I had chosen for all of those years, because I had no technical skill. So that’s when I had to go back and rely on my problem solving skills and my networking and my relationship building and my compassion and my empathy. That’s who I was. And when I began leading like that, my people followed me, the morale was great, productivity was high, and I felt authentic as a leader.
Warwick F:
It’s so interesting that we’ve come across… We had a woman leader who’s from Germany, Cathleen Merkel, and she was very driven 30s successful. As she would put it too German in a way that she was really blunt strong. And she had a boss, a woman boss said, “Cathleen you actually scare people. This is a woman boss.” And it’s like, “I don’t want to scare people.” She was so task oriented. And then she just took a breath, what is it I want in life, I love my work, but I also want to have a social life. And she became, I guess, more empathetic and she was more successful. So I’m not against blunt, but it’s like you don’t want to scare people.
Gina O:
No. If you’re doing anything that’s scaring people or alienating yourself, then you may want to rethink about how you’re leading. But again, if you’re a feminine woman and you’re in a male dominated field, you can still be a feminine woman in a male dominated field, you don’t have to change who you are just to fit in. And if you think you do, then that’s one of those things that might be a self imposed limitation that you’re setting on yourself. So just evaluate that and move forward. I always was wearing the last 11 years of my career when I wasn’t out on some sort, out in the field, I was wearing high heel shoes and dresses. And I was always very, very feminine. Even when I was in the military, a lot of people didn’t even realize that I was a soldier half the time, because I was in civilian clothes. So you just have to be who you are. And if you can be who you are and be recognized in that environment, that’s a good environment for you.
Gary S:
And that’s one of the things that Crucible Leadership, and you talk about a lot Warwick, is the potency of authenticity. One of the best ways to avoid crucibles and to overcome them when you’ve had them is to default to your authentic self. Live and lead authentically. That’s one of the things that is a common thread through the guests that we have on the show. There’s an authenticity factor to it. In fact, Warwick, one of the things that you’ve said about your own crucible was that you weren’t as the media baron. That wasn’t authentically Warwick and that didn’t work out too well. So I think in the examples that you’re using, Gina, when we get off track a little bit, and we can walk into our own crucibles of our own creation, sometimes that’s living inauthentically.
Warwick F:
Yeah. You raise an excellent point. Certainly in my own life, as listeners know growing up in this 150 year old large family media business in Australia, what I thought was required was a Rupert Murdoch take-no-prisoners chief executive. And that wasn’t me. I’m basically a quiet, reserved, reflective adviser. Maybe I could have been a philosophy professor in another life. But I don’t like being upfront making decisions, I like more advising and thinking, reflecting, being part of a team. So it was a horrendous fit, fortunately maybe not financially, but fortunately it didn’t work out. And so now I actually get to do what I love doing, writing. I love writing like you and reflecting and hearing people’s stories. I love that. And it’s like, okay, so maybe I’m not this take-no-prisoners chief executive, whether that’s make sense anyway. I don’t know, but that’s just not me. And it’s okay not to be this other person. It’s not me. So I don’t want to be that other person. I just want to be me.
Gina O:
Right. And where are you happy, where you are happiest.
Warwick F:
Right, exactly. So there’s a lot of other good points. You’ve already talked about tolerations, which I think is fantastic, because they do indeed lead to anxiety and chaos. You talked about set priorities. Talk a bit about that. Okay. So you know who you are in, you know your values, but I’m guessing in light of your values, you need to set priorities. Talk about the link between values and priorities.
Gina O:
Well, I would say knowing who you are, and when you set your priorities, first, where do you want to go? Let’s create a roadmap. And that’s something that I do with my clients is creating that roadmap as to what does success look like? Because so many times we find ourselves frustrated, because we achieve a goal and yet it’s still not good enough. We have to know where exactly it is we’re going and then set priorities on how to get there. Now, if you want to get a promotion, you want to be a dad or mom, you want to learn how to play golf and you want to do all of these things, well, you’re not going to be great at any of those things. So something can’t be a priority in order for you to achieve whatever the goal is.
Gina O:
And if your number one goal is to get that promotion, it’s going to cut into your mom or dad time, it’s going to cut into your golf time. So really when you understand what the priorities are, if something comes up and it’s not on your priority list, then that’s when you say, “Okay, I’m going to have to set this aside.” And then we don’t get overwhelmed. And it doesn’t become chaotic, because we know what our roadmap looks like, we know what our priorities are. And it’s okay to say no, it’s okay not to do certain things if they’re not a priority.
Warwick F:
And what you just said again is so profound is you said earlier that we have choices and life is about choices. So rather than saying, well, you could be a young woman leader and saying, I want to be CEO or director, whatever this organization is, and I’m going to do A, B and C, and that’s great, but there are consequences to that. That could be with family, other things you want to do, balanced life. And rather than saying, I want to do something just because it should be more people in X role. Well, great. But is that what you want to do? Are you living somebody else’s vision, a group of people’s vision? Is that what you want to do? For me, totally different situation.
Warwick F:
There are a lot of Harvard Business School graduates where I got my MBA that they work in investment banking, 80, 90 hours a week and they don’t see their kids at all. And I never wanted that to be me. And so I had some flexibility and worked at a local aviation services firm. I’ve done executive coaching number of things, but it was always a priority of mine to be around my kids growing up they’re now 30 into 20s. But one of the things we do in birthdays, we say what we value about, who’s ever birthday it is, we write cards. My boys who are more athletic than my daughter, they got my wife’s genes, she’s more athletic than I am. They always say, “Dad, you’re at my soccer game, you’re at my tennis game.” Every single card for years, 10, 15 years. Years. Well, that means everything to me, because I want it.
Warwick F:
Now, I’m not saying everybody should do that. Although, I’m biased if you decide to have kids, I would say you should make a choice to spend time with them. Otherwise, don’t have kids, but then that’s my own personal value, judgment set. But does that make sense? It’s like you’ve got to, as you say, set priorities and be okay. Even if somebody’s in the other cubicle, other office is more successful than you, that’s okay if it’s because of choices as priorities you made, right? It’s not a competition. It’s about being true to who you are and your values and priorities. I know that sounds so simple, but in the real world, it’s not easy when you see somebody else that you think is less qualified, less competent, get the promotion that you thought you deserved, because you made choices that reduced the amount of hours you put in and they were doing crazy overtime stuff. Does that make sense?
Gina O:
That’s right.
Warwick F:
You got to be okay with your choices and priorities and be willing to live with them.
Gina O:
Exactly. But it’s important to know where you’re going and what success looks like.
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Gina O:
And if success is one thing, don’t be looking at somebody else and being jealous for their success, because maybe their success is completely different from your success.
Warwick F:
Exactly. Success can be financial and in terms of position in the corporate ladder or success may mean other things, be true to who that is for you. So as we wind down a little bit, you’ve got a lot of great things that you’ve talked about toleration, you talked about creating boundaries, because there’s certain, a lot of people can create chaos in our lives. And you’ve had experience with that. People aren’t always good at doing that, creating boundaries, about not accepting intolerable behavior, if I can mix points, so to speak.
Gina O:
Right. Well, if you think about a person in your life past or present that is a dysfunctional relationship and then go back to when you first met that person and how things would have been different if you would have laid out boundaries, right? So that’s why it’s so important for us, especially in our relationships is to treat people how we expect to be treated. And if we allow people to treat us in a way that we don’t want to be treated, then shame on us, because we’re not setting boundaries, we’re allowing them to do that. I have a friend in the FBI, she’s still in the FBI and she is so good at setting boundaries. And she’s not aggressive about it in any way and it’s just natural to her if she doesn’t like somebody.
Gina O:
I remember having a conversation with her, it was a heated conversation over something. And she said, “Hey, watch your tone.” And that just set me back on my heels. It’s like, oh. And it was just so easy for her to do. And she wasn’t being mean, she just didn’t appreciate the tone that I was using with her. And so now I know in the future, I’m never going to use that tone with her, because I know that she doesn’t appreciate it. So it’s just simple things like that. It doesn’t have to be confrontation all the time. It’s just an easy non confrontational, hey, watch your tone. Right? Okay, I get it.
Warwick F:
So important if you know yourself and have self respect. We all have friends who’s like don’t they have an ounce of respect for themselves don’t they think they’re valuable, they’re worthwhile. I think all human beings have innate intrinsic value and they tolerate toxic relationship, oh, he’ll change, it’ll be okay. And they’re not really like that. It’s like really, if you know them well in the situation you’re going, come on, let’s get into reality. But you can’t make other people’s choices for them. That gets harder to deal with, if they’re people, friends and family, you dearly love. That’s really challenging. But what can you do? You can only live your own life, but a lot of people are not doing that.
Gina O:
Yeah. I think eventually people will stop tolerating that once they learn whatever lesson it is. Imagine, so say you unpack and pack those boxes in the garage. And every time you go into the garage, you drive into the garage, you’re going to feel that sense of, “Oh yeah, the boxes are unpacked. Oh, the leaky faucet is fixed.” And that’s where we create space. When we stop tolerating behaviors from other people that we don’t want, those are the harder ones. First I say, start with the easy toleration, get rid of the boxes and the leaky faucet. But once we decide that we’re not going to tolerate that anymore, we’re going to feel so much better about ourselves. Like you said, self respect that we’re going to have for ourselves, but it’s a matter of getting to that point where it’s time to clean out that thing we tolerate.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And I love one of these latter ones in which you say call for backup. Obviously, even those who haven’t been in the military or FBI, we’ve all seen the TV shows and yeah, backup, I need it please, it’s a tough situation. But so many of us want to do things on our own. It’s like you ask, hey, do you need help? I’ve got it. Sometimes it means I’ve got it, but sometimes it means I have not got it, but I’m not willing to admit that I need help. It can mean that too. And just realize that we talk a lot on Crucible Leadership. We have certain gifting, but nobody has all the gifting. I’m a person of faith. And from my faith perspective, God, in his infinite wisdom, hasn’t given us all the gifting. So if we don’t have a team, we fail typically. I’m sure you’ve had that experience in the FBI team as well at work.
Warwick F:
So you led a group of cyber experts. You knew a lot about managing those, but you didn’t know as much about cyber coding as your team. And that’s okay. They probably didn’t know as much about managing and dealing with people, perhaps, I don’t know. So it requires a team. I know that sounds obvious, but so many people, so many entrepreneurs that don’t call for backup. It’s like, I got it. Right? Does that make sense?
Gina O:
That’s essential. And especially if you’re in a crisis scenario to not surround yourself with greatness, to not call in teams of people who know more than you do about how to get out of the crisis. If you’re going through any sort of crisis, whether it was like me in the FBI where we were responding to a crisis, whether it’d be a terrorist attack or a cyber attack, or if we lose a loved one or we’re going through a divorce or we’re having other issues going on at work, it is so important call a neighbor, call a family member, hire a coach, call in an expert. In this day and age, there’s absolutely no reason for us to go through anything by ourselves. And an easy way to practice that is whenever anyone offers you, would you like a cup of coffee? Yes. Would you like this? Yes. Just start saying yes to the simple things that we always say, oh no, I’m fine. No, I’m fine. But if you just practice those little things, when it comes to the big issue, it’s going to be a lot easier to accept help if you practice it now.
Gary S:
I have a question for you, Warwick, would you like the captain to turn on the fasten seatbelt sign so that we can begin the process of landing the plane?
Warwick F:
Yeah, no, I think it’s probably a good idea.
Gina O:
We can talk forever.
Gary S:
I want to amplify though, and we still have a couple of points to go through. But I want to amplify, Gina, one of the things that you say about calling for backup, because it’s critical, and Warwick talks about it a lot too, and that’s this, and I’m going to quote from your seven key ways to eliminate chaos from your business in your life. You say, “It’s also important to get out of your bubble and become involved with groups of people who are not like you. Networks of different people with a variety of skills, knowledge and networks of their own are essential in becoming unstoppable when chaos hits.” For folks who’ve been listening and they’re saying, “I’m nothing like Gina, she’s FBI and all this experience,” how can people perhaps add you to their team? How can they find out more about the services that you offer?
Gina O:
You may find me at ginalosborn.com. I have two eBooks, the eBooks that we’re talking about. And then also one for women who are working in male dominated fields, there are five key ways to navigate that. And I’m also an international speaker. So I’ve got my speaking stuff on there as well. So yes, please visit me at ginalosborn.com. The eBooks are free. And I would love to share them with you.
Gary S:
And that is Osborn without an E on the end or a U in the middle. It’s O-S-B-O-R-N. Correct?
Gina O:
Yes. Gina L. Osborn.
Gary S:
All right. Warwick, we’ve got a couple more of these seven key ways. I’ll let you take it home and get the plane on the ground from here.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So we’ve got, don’t take things personally, which I love. I’m not always fantastic at that, to be honest. I’m a tad sensitive. So I to talk myself out of it or my wife can help me talk myself out of it. But I wouldn’t say that it’s always something I do terrifically and then have courage. So talk about why you chose those two to round out these seven points that you have about eliminating chaos from your business and life? Why those last two?
Gina O:
There is a lovely book called The Four Agreements where they speak about taking things personally. And they say it’s the most selfish thing that you could possibly do. And I’m a big believer in that. I was part of a task force when I was a brand new agent and agent in the FBI. I would go to that task force and I had a partner there, but then the other detectives on the task force, they didn’t really treat me very warmly. So after about three weeks of this, I go to my partner and I said, “You know what? I don’t think any of these guys like me.” And he said, “Oh no, they like you, they just hate the FBI.” So I thought, “Oh, okay.” Well, that was a good thing. Apparently they had a bad experience with an FBI agent in the past and so they just didn’t like the feds. And that was just something, but it wasn’t me.
Gina O:
And so by taking it personally, all I’m doing is just creating all of this drama that is really unnecessary, because they liked me fine. It was something that was completely out of my control, that they were treating me with the distance on. So really we really need to just not take things personally. And even if something, we do take something personally, let’s address it immediately. I call it giving the finger, not the middle finger, the come here finger. And just ask a question, what did you mean by what you just said? And you don’t have to be confrontational about it, but that’s going to nip it in the bud, instead of using all of that energy all day long and being mad and calling all your friends to tell them what happened and then losing sleep over it. And then plotting that person’s demise is so much easier just to nip it in the bud by asking a simple question than taking it personally and diverting from your roadmap and where you want to go.
Warwick F:
Then obviously the last one have courage. You got to have courage to deal with all of this situation. As we close, what would be a word of hope that you would give to young leaders and potentially maybe especially young women leaders? What’s a word of hope and a word of counsel, perhaps, that you would give them?
Gina O:
My favorite quote is from Albert Einstein, but I’m going to modify it for my sisters. She who attempts the absurd can achieve the impossible. And that’s been my mantra. The absurd was an Orange County girl who was grown up in an alcoholic household, who went and joined the Army, which was something I never thought I would do. So if you attempt the absurd, you’re going to achieve the impossible. So don’t be afraid to risk and don’t be afraid to try. Have that courage.
Gary S:
I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject has been spoken and Gina has just spoken it. If I had done my research listener, I would have, as I say, the plane is on the ground, I’d have the name of some fighter plane or something to pay homage to Gina’s background, but I don’t. So the planes on the ground and I have for you listener, I think, three really great takeaways from our conversation with Gina Osborn today. First one, dare to be extraordinary. The very first story that Gina told was about not wanting to just be ordinary when life wasn’t going, when she was young, the way she wanted it to go. She didn’t hope for just ordinary, she dared to be extraordinary. So don’t settle for ordinary when your life has been knocked off course. Be open to the possibility. It may be an opportunity to chart a different course.
Gary S:
Moving beyond your crucible does not always or even necessarily mean hopping back on the same path. It doesn’t even mean hopping back on the same bike. You can go as far as your vision will take you if you commit to it the way that Gina has committed to. Second takeaway. Chaos we bring into our lives is equal to the chaos we allow into our lives. That is something that’s important. The chaos we bring into our lives is equal to the crises and the chaos, the crises that come out of the chaos that we bring into our lives. If we eliminate the tolerations in our lives, reduce the clutter of all sorts, as Warwick said it, we can prevent chaos from becoming crisis. Lean into your core values, set priorities and create boundaries.
Gary S:
And then the last thing tying up really the seven key ways to eliminate chaos from your business in your life, there’s a through line and I’m going to read it out of Gina’s eBook. The through line is establish your core values and live in light of them. And she wrote this in the eBook. In these difficult times, we are living in, it’s important to establish your core values so chaos doesn’t throw you off track. Values are about how you consciously choose to show up in relationships at work and in the way you navigate your inner landscape.
Gary S:
Get a pen and write this next one down, because this is the closing thought here. You commit to values daily and never reach a final destination. So until the next time we are together at Beyond the Crucible listeners, Warwick and I would ask you to do us a little favor, if you like what you’ve heard, you’ve enjoyed this conversation, click like subscribe on the podcast app on which you’re listening to the show. It helps us get the show the content, the hope that comes from these discussions out to more people.
Gary S:
And also remember this, we recognize, hopefully you’ve heard it in this conversation that your crucible experiences are painful. They hurt, they can knock you off the bike I was talking about just a little while ago. But here’s the good news, that’s not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons that, that crucible can teach you and you apply those lessons to the rest of your life, it’s not the end of your story, it’s the beginning of a new chapter in your story that can lead to the best chapter of your story. A fantastic ending to your story, because that ending is a life of significance.
We live in an almost unprecedented time of stress and anxiety with the global pandemic of the coronavirus. We don’t know how long this crisis will last, when there will be approved safe remedies to treat the virus or still less when there will be an approved vaccine. Many have been furloughed from work, unsure how long their businesses will be able to survive and how long they will have jobs, assuming they still have jobs.
Amid the fear and stress of the health and economic uncertainty, many are living and working from home; 24/7. There are short breaks to walk or go to the grocery store, but then it is back to the house packed with family; kids home from school, adult kids in some cases being at home, too. In times in which stress and anxiety are high and many of us are living and working in close quarters with each other, friction can and probably will happen. Tempers will fray, hurtful words will come out. As humans when we are under stress, we tend to take our frustrations out on those who are around us, in this case our family or those we live with. Such lashing out on those we care about or are around is understandable. Even in normal times, friction in families can happen.
How can we lessen or ideally avoid such friction in times of exceptional stress and anxiety? How can we have grace and tolerance for those around us? In time, we hope the current global pandemic will ease, and while life may be different in its aftermath, we hope we will be able to get out of the house more. Even when life becomes hopefully more normal, friction and stress can still happen. And that’s just at home, in our personal lives. Stress and anxiety – even absent a pandemic – is a reality in our workplaces, as well. Knowing how to lessen it or eliminate it through your leadership is key to leading effectively and with transparency and
Here are some tips to having more grace and tolerance with those around
1. Do an internal audit.
Recognize that you are under stress, that you are anxious. Acknowledge it and accept it. Don’t be angry at yourself or, worse, get angry at others. We can debate if there is anyone to blame for the spread of the coronavirus. Being in a state of perpetual fixation of who is to blame for what we are all going through, is not to going to help you or those you care about. The global pandemic is certainly not your family and friends’ fault. So, own your anxieties, fears and stress. Don’t lash out at others.
2. Admit your fears and anxieties to others.
It helps us for those closest to us (family and friends) to know what we are feeling. For those strong silent types (often men), who want to appear tough when inside they feel like quivering jellyfish, admit your fears to those who care for you. Chances are they are scared and uncertain, too. Such vulnerability, reduces hostility, increases understanding and actually brings you closer together.
3. Be flexible.
Some of us like our routines. We go to work each day, or perhaps we have a home office. We like getting tea or coffee from our favorite coffee shop on the way to work. We like going to the gym on our way to or way back from work. We like going out to eat at our favorite restaurant with friends. This has all stopped, and many of us are in close proximity to our families or roommates all the time, every day. That is a lot of togetherness. This is frustrating. But we need to accept the fact that our routines have been interrupted. We need to be open to change the way we do things. As someone who really likes his routine, and does not like changing it, I have found this to be a challenge. But I recognize my innate desire, perhaps need, for routine and try to take it a day at a time. Hopefully, working from home and being housebound will not be forever. It is just a season, albeit a season of uncertain length.
4. Have grace with yourself.
Accept the fact that you are going to feel stressful, uncertain and fearful in times of near universal anxiety, which at this moment is the global pandemic. Then give yourself a break. Give yourself some grace. You, like everyone else, are human. We are wired to be stressed and anxious under such circumstances. When our ancestors were attacked by bears or tigers, they were scared. That is normal. Don’t be too hard on yourself.
5. Have grace with others.
If you feel like you deserve a break, how about giving others, especially, those close friends and family, a break. There is a saying, “treat others how you want to be treated.” This is the so-called Golden Rule, actually the words of Jesus. If you feel that you deserve forgiveness in what feel like unprecedented times, then perhaps those close friends and family deserve forgiveness too.
6. Channel your energy in productive ways.
It starts with acceptance. Accept the limitations of your current living and working environment. Think positively. How can you use your adjusted circumstances positively? If you are around close friends and family more, perhaps you can have a game night or a movie night. Perhaps you can actually talk to each other, rather than running from one activity to another which many of us do in normal times. From a professional standpoint, for those whose work schedules have been cut back or altered, think of those long-term planning projects you may finally be able to get to. Perhaps you are tired of your job or profession. Use this time to think of alternative directions. Perhaps consider calling friends and colleagues. You might be amazed that some people like you are stuck at home, and perhaps could be available to connect with.
Life can be stressful. It often is. Even beyond the current pandemic, when we get stressed we tend to lash out – in both personal and professional situations. We blame ourselves. We blame others. Or perhaps both. Having grace and tolerance with yourself and others is so important. Can you imagine a world where we were all tolerant of each other, where we all showed grace to each other? A world where there is understanding and forgiveness irrespective of race, background, political party or country of origin. That is the world many of us hope for. It starts with each of us, showing grace and tolerance first to ourselves and then to others.
Reflection
How well are you treating the people around you, including your friends and family?
How well do others around you think you are treating them?
What one thing will you do this week to treat those around you with kindness, dignity and respect?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
How you think and what you feel as you move beyond your crucible is critical. It’s just as important, in fact, as what actions you take to get past it. Michelle Dickinson shares this truth as a corporate well-being strategist. She and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host and Crucible Leadership founder, Warwick Fairfax, discuss the lessons she’s learned about resilience from growing up with a bipolar mother. She also shares what she teaches executives about addressing the mental-health challenges faced by their employees. Millions of us are working to create a new normal after the myriad setbacks and traumas of the COVID-19 pandemic. That’s why, she says, we need to be extended the grace – and give it to ourselves – to realize we are stronger than any circumstance we face.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Michelle D:
One of the things that I have been working with leaders on is like, let’s help your people feel cared for. Let’s teach them psychological resilience. Let’s remind them of the things that they can be doing to care for themselves and recenter themselves. It’s been a rough 14, 15 months. What is it that they need? And how do we remind them of some things they really need to be doing to recenter themselves and feel better. If they feel better about themselves, about their life, about their work, it’s all going to be a win-win.
Michelle D:
So, it’s leading by example, really extending and doing more than handing them an 800 number for mental health and looking the other way. It’s no, let us help equip you so that you start to feel the way you want to feel.
Gary S:
Overcoming a crucible is as much about how you think as you move beyond it, as it is about what you do to get beyond it. This week’s guest, Michelle Dickinson, knows this to be true from the challenges she’s faced since childhood and from the counsels she gives businesses today as a corporate wellbeing strategist.
Gary S:
Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. Michelle and Warwick discussed at length in this episode the lessons she learned about resilience growing up with a bipolar mother and the lessons she teaches executives about proactively addressing the mental health challenges faced by their employees.
Gary S::
Particularly, as millions of us look to establish a new normal after the myriad setbacks and traumas presented by the COVID 19 pandemic, we need to be extended the grace and give it to ourselves to realize we are stronger than any circumstance we face.
Warwick F:
Well, Michelle, thank you so much for being here. I love what you do and your whole concept about being a mental health advocate in the workplace. Such a rare concept, where, as we’ll get into, it’s a taboo to talk about having challenges, emotional, mental, health challenges. I love that.
Warwick F:
And I love the title of your book, “Breaking Into My Life,” certainly my own story. The more I understand myself and my background and my own crucibles, it better helped me understand how I’m wired so I can move forward. It’s not just delving into pain just for the sake of it. It’s delving into it so that you can understand how you’re wired, at least in my case. We all have scars. So, when things come up, it’s like, okay, I understand the way that is, and that’s okay, I’ll just figure out how to manage my way around it.
Warwick F:
But before we get into what you do, which I think is fascinating, there’s always an origin story. There’s always a reason why. Why we feel so passionate and why you feel so passionate about being a mental health advocate in the workplace. So, tell us a bit about the backstory behind Michelle Dickinson and what drove you to have such a passion for what you do?
Gary S:
And I have to jump in before she says that. I want to jump in, Michelle, because people who aren’t watching this on YouTube did not see you make that scared face or that “Oh, no, I have to talk about this” face. So, that indicates that it’s going to be a story, I think, that’s going to help people. That’s why I break in, so.
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Michelle D:
I just want to first off say thank you both, Gary and Warwick, for the invitation to be part of this today and to be talking to you about this. I’m always grateful when people are curious. But my backstory is a little bit complicated. I’ll give you the short version.
Michelle D:
I grew up with a mom who had bipolar disorder. And I was her caregiver for most of her life, actually my life, starting as a very young child up until I was in my late 20s when she passed away. And that was a bit of a shaping experience. It’s not something I signed up for, but it’s something I just took on. I needed to care for her.
Michelle D:
She had the typical symptoms of bipolar. She had the extreme mania, the deep depressing lows. So, it was definitely a lot like a roller coaster. You just never knew the mom you’re going to come home to.
Michelle D:
So, that experience shaped me and taught me a lot. In retrospect now, it taught me a lot about compassion and empathy for people who struggle with mental illness. But I never thought that it would actually shape me into what I’m doing for a living. So, that’s a whole other story.
Michelle D:
But basically, that was the connection that I had to mental health. Bipolar disorder and mental illness was always a tapestry of my life and just something that I grew up with.
Warwick F:
And this may be obvious, but how did it affect you growing up dealing with a mother that probably some days, she’s really good, other days, it’s challenging. And I’m assuming, when we go through challenges, we can sometimes take it out on people that are near us and that we love and not that we necessarily mean to, but I know that can happen. How did you handle that? Because there’s probably a variety of ways that children of bipolar parents can handle this. How did you process it and handle it?
Michelle D:
It was my normal. So, when people ask the question, it’s like, well, I only knew what I knew, right? I knew that to be my experience, which was my normal. I didn’t know it to be anything different until I would go to a girlfriend’s house and watch the interaction between her mother and her and realize how very different and volatile my home life and my environment was.
Michelle D:
I think, for me, my mom was emotionally unavailable for a lot of my childhood, except for times when she had just been hospitalized and came home. She was very present to who I was and our relationship. But those were such short-lived experiences.
Michelle D:
I learned to find the love and the connection and what I needed through other relatives. I think as children, we’ve become very resourceful with what we need and where to go to get that. So, I got that from my grandmother, my aunts, and even in the mothers of my girlfriends. I always got the extra nurturing from those folks which helped me.
Warwick F:
Because sometimes, when we don’t have nurturing from a parent or a mother, I mean, human beings, in fact, I think all creatures in the world need that love and nurturing, whether it’s little birds in the nest. And I mean, it’s like part of being… part of creation.
Warwick F:
To not have that, you would know more than me, but it’s not easy to thrive and grow without that love. And you obviously found it in different sources. But for some, it could make them numb or incapable of loving others. Maybe not incapable, making it difficult.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
You’ve seen that. But somehow, you’ve avoided that.
Michelle D:
Yeah, I mean, I’ll be totally honest. I’m 49 years old and I’m still in therapy. I’m still unpacking the impact that my mother’s and my relationship had on me as it shaped me as a very little girl.
Michelle D:
I think one of the biggest places that I got a lot of attention and love and support was my youth group. I think I naturally gravitated to a safe space where I could just tell people what I was dealing with at home. Because back in the 70s and 80s, when I was growing up, like mental illness was even more stigmatized. So, we kept that very close to the vest. We didn’t want anyone to know. It was extremely embarrassing.
Michelle D:
So, I really never felt safe to talk about what I was dealing with until I found my youth group and then I felt accepted and was able to get support from the kids in the group.
Warwick F:
Was that like a youth group at a church or-
Michelle D:
Yeah, it was my youth group, my church youth group.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Gary S:
I love, Michelle, that you just said, “Let me be honest, I’m 49 years old and I’m still in therapy.” Because sometimes we think that there’s a statute of limitations on how long we can struggle with the crucibles we struggle with. And Warwick, I know in your own story, you talked about… I mean, when we talk about what happened with the takeover and the failed takeover bid, that was 30-some years ago.
Gary S:
So, that wasn’t like the next week, you were okay, everything’s going great. So, I think that’s an important message that you both share with folks that you can still be moving forward while still dealing with what has, in some ways, held you back or that you’re dealing with to keep from holding you back. That’s an important message. That it’s not you’ve got to get over it in this certain period of time. It’s a process.
Warwick F:
It is and it’s funny. I mean, I shared this, very recently, in the last podcast that we did. I had a close family member. I didn’t know that they were bipolar. They were never diagnosed. But certainly, there was some sense of mania, of extreme highs and extreme lows. And that was sometimes, when I was small and beyond, taken out on me and so I never knew, okay, who am I going to find today? Because I didn’t know any different. I assumed that was like normal. And so later on through, for me, yes, it was people of faith and community and mentors, some counseling and I began to understand it more.
Warwick F:
But it can shake your sense of self when there’s just the extreme level of unpredictability. So certainly, for me, and I’m blessed to have a wonderful wife. We’ve been married just over 30 years and she loves me unconditionally. And as I tell my kids, they have an incredible mother and they’re alternatives to that model. And they are blessed. But yet, I’m certainly somebody that my family knows I don’t like change. I like predictability, I like my rhythms. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out. I wonder why that is.
Warwick F:
And it’s okay. I mean, I still live a good life and take risks, thoughtful risks, other than when I jokingly say I do $2 billion takeovers when that wasn’t quite such a thoughtful risk. Other than that, I’m a careful decision-maker. Well, some people are just born skydivers and risk-takers. That’s not me. Well, I wonder why. So, anyway, all that’s to say is, I don’t pretend to completely understand what you went through, but have maybe some conception.
Michelle D:
But I can draw a parallel to that, Warwick, because I do also gravitate to stability. I don’t take as many risks as I would like to. And I think it was just because of the unpredictable environment I grew up in. I crave some sense of stability. And sometimes, it’s not always a good thing.
Warwick F:
No, but it’s like, there’s some things it’s good to change. Like, again, not to get into all my foibles, but I take calculated risks. But as a kid, I was never particularly physically brave. I wasn’t really an athlete. So, the whole ropes course things or, I mean, I can get a little bit of vertigo, which doesn’t help. But I would never do any of that stuff. I was too afraid.
Warwick F:
But it’s like, I’m actually okay with that. There was some things I don’t feel an excessive need to prove I can overcome. I pick my battles. It’s like, I don’t have to prove in every aspect of my life that I can be superhuman, but anyway.
Warwick F:
So, what you went through has obviously shaped you. So, you talked about those experiences with a bipolar mom. That shaped you growing up in your 20s. And yeah, I mean, it’s not like, okay, I’m over 18, I’m good, even with the youth group. So, talk about some of those challenges as you… from teenagers to early adulthood, and that kind of thing.
Michelle D:
Yeah, I’ve always struggled with self-confidence. I think it was because my mom wasn’t the one reminding me that whatever I wanted to do I was capable of. So, my self-confidence was always very fragile. And, I think, struggling with that, finding my first corporate job, navigating, being accepted, the strong desire to be liked at whatever cost. So, I think I struggled with that a lot.
Michelle D:
I did spend many years in therapy just trying to understand why I was the way I was. So, that was hard. And then even, after I was out of the home, my mom was still very manipulative and controlling. So, I still had to navigate that, which was interesting. But I also learned for my own wellbeing, I had to distance myself from her to protect myself. And that was something I couldn’t do as a little girl, but I could do as an adult. And I did do it. And sometimes it came with harsh repercussions from her, but it also preserved my mental health. So, it was quite the journey.
Warwick F:
And that requires a lot of inner strength. Sometimes, as I sometimes say in my own life, I think when you deal with a family member like that, you have to become an expert in forgiving.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Because if you don’t forgive, as I often say, you put yourself in your own prison, not that behavior like that, which one can analyze if it’s their fault or not their fault. I mean it’s hard to say mental illness is somebody’s fault. But either way, even if it’s not their fault, it’s still something to forgive, not to condone the behavior.
Warwick F:
But I often find in my own life when I’d forgive and I’ve had a lot of practice and one of the things that I do well, I think I’m reasonably good in that area, it’s like the gift that keeps on giving. It’s like I’m just trying to catch up with the last episode, please not another one? I mean, come on, really?
Warwick F:
So, you get a lot of practice. It’s not one and done. It’s incident after incident. So, I’m sure you’ve probably got pretty good, for you to be whole, at forgiving even though it’s… forgiving and condoning, as I’ve said, is different, but I’m sure you had a lot of practice, unfortunately, right?
Michelle D:
Yeah, for many years, I was very angry at my mom and very resentful because she was also emotionally and physically abusive to me. And so, I spent a lot of time disagreeing with the reality of who she was, right. And when we disagree with reality, we basically create our own upset. And so, I was angry with her because I was… it’s so easy to be focused on the effects that someone with a mental illness is having on you, instead of trying to step into their world and try to realize what their life was like.
Michelle D:
So, I had to go through a lot of self-discovery to finally find forgiveness in my heart for my mom, and that did not come easy. That came with many years of self-reflective work through Landmark, Tony Robbins, whatever, to just reach a place of peace and forgiveness and compassion. I had no real compassion for her for many years because she, occurred to me, is just someone who was evil and mean.
Michelle D:
But then, I was able to eventually get to the point and really realized that she was a mom doing the best she could, and she was doing it with a mental illness. And that was when everything just… like my shoulders just dropped and I was just like, wow, imagine being a mom trying to raise a daughter and not knowing if you were going to be happy or sad, and how hard life must have been for her. And then when I found that compassion for her, I was able to forgive her and accept her for who she was.
Warwick F:
I mean, that’s somewhat of a miracle, as anybody who’s gone through this realizes that that is extremely hard. And I think it’s true, certainly in my own experience, when you understand why the person is the way they are. We’ll never know the full story. I mean, I don’t, in my case. But to understand, it makes it easier to have compassion. And yeah, I mean, it is possible over time. And sometimes we think, if I let the anger go, then what they did is okay. And we tell ourselves that… which is wrong, but that’s the story we tell ourselves.
Warwick F:
I don’t want to forget the pain because I don’t want that to be seen as right, that behavior when it’s just… and there’s a lot of listeners, unfortunately, that go through this, whether it’s parents or spouses or other family members. It’s just important to let go because, as I often say, because you’re worth it, we’re worth it.
Michelle D:
Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. There was someone that once told me, “Separate your mother from her illness. And then you can love your mother for who she is and you can hate the illness.” And that, actually, was the first step for me to start to begin to forgive her for what she did, not excuse it, not excuse it at all. I mean, she was mean, she was cruel, and she said things to me that I still am haunted by.
Michelle D:
But it’s a journey. And I think we have to… the first thing we have to do when it comes to loving someone with a mental illness is try to find the compassion in our heart for their humanness, for the human that they are, before blending them with their illness.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And so, talk about how, what you went through somehow in early adulthood, whether it’s your own family situation and job situation that it’s… I mean, did it have… that’s probably a very silly question. But I’m assuming it had some repercussions. Did you feel like… or maybe they were separate? Maybe there were separate incidents that happened to you not related to what your mom went through?
Michelle D:
I mean, it’s interesting, because I write in my book, “Breaking Into My Life,” I actually write in there that my first marriage, I married my mother. I married the male version of my mother because it was comfortable and it was familiar. And I learned a lot through that experience. It was a very short marriage, but I realized that I gravitate to familiar situations that are unhealthy for me. And there’s a perfect example of the repercussions of that.
Warwick F:
But before I mention a comment, so talk about the role of faith, did that play any role in your dealing with it, processing it, maybe coming back from it?
Michelle D:
Yeah, I mean, I think I had always been raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school. My youth group was such a wonderful memory from my childhood and really did help me. I think I always had my faith or my spirituality that I was never alone. I mean, the other aspect to my life is I’m adopted.
Michelle D:
So, I always had moments where I was like, “I don’t belong here.” So, I would just trust in a higher power to care for me and look after me, because there was no worse feeling than being abused by our adopted mother and wondering why you aren’t with the family you’re supposed to be with.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I mean, it’s a conversation, I guess. I mean, for me, I was blessed. Faith has always been very important for me. And when I was in Australia during the whole takeover years, because the stress was monumental. My name was in the papers all the time. I was on my knees in prayer pretty much every day just trying to get through the day. It was pretty difficult.
Warwick F:
And it sounds a little weird out there, but I just felt like this silent, still, small voice of God, I mean, not audible, just tell me that an American girl who was visiting some friends that this is the one I have for you. And the strange thing is I also would have… if left to my own devices, I would have done what you did, found somebody to marry like this family member who was controlling, outgoing, manipulative, some of the things that you’ve said. And my wife, Gale, I mean, she certainly has a strong will like I do, but she’s not controlling. She has a capacity to love unconditionally.
Warwick F:
And so, I just feel… I mean, she was a nice person who I respected, but probably wouldn’t have been the person I would have normally gone out with, because it wasn’t the model. But yet, because I was in so much challenge professionally, I knew that was, I know it sounds weird, I knew that was from the Lord. I was convinced. And I was not going to ignore it because I did not… I wanted to chart a different course. And so, I did and smartest, I wouldn’t say, decision I made, but smartest voice I ever listened to and we’re married 30 years. But that was only by the grace of God. That was not because of me. So, anyway, so-
Michelle D:
That’s awesome. That’s a beautiful story.
Warwick F:
I’m blessed.
Michelle D:
Yeah, it’s a beautiful story.
Warwick F:
Yeah, sometimes listening to your own… I tell my kids this, don’t always think you know what’s best. Some people say arranged marriages are a good idea, which I don’t know. I don’t know whether that works in our culture, but in some cultures, I can see the value of it. But it’s tough to do that in the US.
Warwick F:
So I just want to shift gears here into what you do. But you mentioned around the time of the divorce, I believe you also had lost a job. There was a week which was… you’ve had some tough weeks, but this is probably up there on one of the toughest weeks for you, I’m guessing.
Michelle D:
Yeah, it’s interesting. I totally believe that everything… that life is always happening for us even though in moments of darkness, we can’t always see it. So, it was very ironic that I went to divorce court on a Monday in May and two days later, I was called into a meeting and told my position was eliminated. So, I lost a marriage and a job within the same week within the same year.
Warwick F:
Oh my God.
Gary S:
So please tell me, Michelle, that if you got divorced on Monday, you lost a job on Wednesday, please tell me, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday were better.
Michelle D:
They were.
Gary S:
Good, good. There’s hope right there.
Michelle D:
Right there.
Warwick F:
So, how did you come back from that? Did you have kids from your marriage?
Michelle D:
No, no.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Michelle D:
I didn’t have children. And I was actually already living by myself after being separated for about a year. But it definitely was one of those things where you’re like, well, I can’t go any lower, right? I could get kicked out of where I live. That would have been the worst. Or God forbid, if something happened to me and my health. I mean, there were many blessings in my life.
Michelle D:
I think for me at that moment, it was like, okay, so I’m being presented change for some reason, how do I deal with this? I surrounded myself with my friends, because I was having a party that following Saturday anyway. I surrounded myself with my friends. And it was called the new beginnings party where everyone got together and it was just wonderful to be with them.
Michelle D:
And I just started to figure out what am I going to do? Like, what’s next for me? And where am I being pulled to? And ironically, the whole two years before I lost my job, I had released my book, I had given a TED talk, I was finding a lot of satisfaction in talking about mental health and really helping people understand it. So, I felt pulled, that I was being pulled in that direction instead of going back into the corporate world.
Michelle D:
And so, I just had to listen. I did a lot of meditating. And I started to just get present to where am I being pulled to and what’s next for me. And that’s when I decided I’m not going back into the corporate space. I’m going to create a company and I’m going to teach compassion and resilience, and that’s what I’m going to do.
Warwick F:
What’s fascinating to me, we talk about this a lot on Beyond the Crucible, is sometimes crucibles happen to us for a reason. We never liked them. I didn’t like, obviously, the family one I mentioned, but just even the whole takeover ending 150 years of family history. And the Wikipedia entry, which still isn’t particularly favorable, young, hot-headed kid, could have had it all and blew it.
Warwick F:
And then I had to say, well, what do I want to do with my life? Because absent that, I would have been there forever, because I couldn’t have let my dad down who I dearly loved and ancestors down. But for you, that crucible of losing your job, it wasn’t fun at the time. You wouldn’t have chosen it. But it created an opportunity that maybe you would have had, maybe not.
Warwick F:
But sometimes, whether it’s God, the universe, or some higher power, I sometimes wonder, and we’ll never know concretely, but things like that happen, you think, gosh, maybe there’s a reason, maybe there’s a purpose. Did you begin to think at least later on, maybe there’s a reason that I lost that job? Maybe in some weird way, it was for the best, much as it was painful.
Michelle D:
Yeah, it was the certainty and the comfort I would have never left on my own. I’m crystal clear. I mean, I spent 19 years in the pharmaceutical industry. My vision was retire from the industry and live a very happy and healthy retirement. And there’s a lot to be said about being comfortable and living in complete certainty, like I had certainty. But was I using my life to what I really should have been using it for?
Michelle D:
And so, I think for me, I’m really clear now. I would have never had the courage to do it. And in retrospect, it was probably the biggest gift to be pushed in the direction where I can make the biggest contribution.
Gary S:
That is a textbook definition of what we call a life of significance here at Crucible Leadership, that you were from out of your crucible, you decided to pursue not “success,” what you described as that being comfortable, and you pursued a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. That’s what you’re doing right now. And that is, I mean, that truly is text book Crucible Leadership.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. So, talk about when you were fired and you decided to form your own initiative, own company. Talk about, I mean, I could guess, but why being a mental health advocate in the workplace? It could have been mental health advocate in general, it could have been become a counselor. There’s all sorts of things you could have done. But what led you to have this passion, this zeal, this mission for mental health advocate in the workplace?
Michelle D:
I just want to mention, it was a struggle to come to that conclusion. I have to tell you, for several months, my energy was split between trying to get back into the corporate space and trying to start a business, right? Like, I wasn’t committed. I was not fully committed. But it wasn’t until I said to myself, I need to fully commit and put all my energy behind this company and stop entertaining the comfort desire that I had to go back in and just live someone else’s company dreams.
Michelle D:
So, for me, it was… the workplace, I spent 19 years in corporate America. My first job was at IBM, right out of high school. I spent several years in different big pharma companies here in New Jersey. I learned a lot about the inner workings of the corporate space in terms of walking the square, the political environment within, the leadership journey of many within the corporate space. So, I wanted to make a difference because I saw what was happening was we were losing the humanness of leadership. We were becoming all about the deliverables and losing the person in the process.
Michelle D:
And to observe that over the years is one thing but then I experienced a lack of compassion and empathy and humanness when I was diagnosed with depression. So, I’m going through the divorce and I get diagnosed with depression. And I had never personally been diagnosed with depression. I always dealt with seasonal depression, moderately, nothing big. But being adopted, I was like, “I’m never going to have bipolar, thank God.” But then I was diagnosed with it. And I was also leading… I was one of like a group of leaders leading a mental health employee resource group, a grassroots, sort of employee-driven mental health resource group for people to come together and support one another.
Michelle D:
So, I’m doing this work, I’m public speaking about my book. And from left field, I’m dealing with depression and I go to a doctor, I get the diagnosis. And I say to myself, “I have to lead by example.” And I tell my leader, people are looking at me, I have to own this. So, I remember telling her, “I was diagnosed with depression. This is really hitting me harder than I thought. And I just want you to know that,” right. And it was met with this lukewarm response. And she’s a line manager, many, many years of leading people.
Michelle D:
And then six months later, during my performance review, she says to me, “You didn’t measure up. You didn’t meet the expectations of your performance. You didn’t bring your bubbly, upbeat self to work every day.” And I stopped for a second and there in that moment was when the fire was lit in my belly. Because I said to myself, this really is… I can’t believe my ears, first of all. I can’t believe my ears. She’s judging me on my bubbliness and she knows that I’ve just been trying to deal with my depression and meet my deliverables.
Michelle D:
So, in that moment, I just said to myself, “This is the issue, this is the gap.” This is where we can make a bigger difference by educating people leaders on just how to be compassionate and really extend themselves and care about their people before anything else. That was really the reason behind why I said if I’m going to make a change, I’m going to make it in the corporate space because we need to teach compassion and bring compassion back into the workplace, and heart-centered leadership, where people really are genuinely concerned about each other as people before performance.
Warwick F:
Were you told at all that you didn’t meet the deliverables, the performance goals? Or was it just, well, you’re not being as bubbly as you normally were?
Michelle D:
Yeah, I mean, I was told… so it wasn’t like I was told like, along the journey, which is what we like to hear, right? That there’s an open narrative about performance. Nah, I wasn’t told any of that. And then at the review, I was just told, “You didn’t measure up and you didn’t meet expectations.”
Michelle D:
And my goals were… some of them were tangible, some of them I clearly achieved, but others were very subjective, let’s just say. So, I definitely didn’t feel like I was given a fair shake. I had been an overachiever for eight years with the company, always exceeding my performance goals. So, that one year was really hard for me. And that’s how I was evaluated.
Warwick F:
I mean, it’s obviously hard to know. And smart line managers aren’t going to make it easy to figure out because why would they? But did it feel like, hmm, because I had that conversation about depression, somehow, maybe there’s a link between me, this bad performance review, and ultimately losing my job. Now, you’ll never know, for sure. But did it feel to you like maybe there was perhaps some link there between that conversation that changed the perception of your boss?
Michelle D:
Yes. Of course, of course. Unfortunately, and of course, absolutely. And so that’s where I get really passionate about organizations having agreement at the top of the organization, employees driving change at the bottom of the organization. But then, those line managers really need to be the ones that they put energy behind, because they’re the face of the company.
Michelle D:
So yeah, absolutely, I did. And I won’t know. And it is what it is. And look at what I’m doing now. And I’m much happier, so.
Warwick F:
I mean, one of the things that… it’s funny, we said in a recent blog, in a recent podcast is the importance of mission and people. I know this sounds blindingly obvious.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
But as you know, as well as anybody, in corporate America or corporate really anywhere in the world, for-profit or nonprofit, it’s both. I mean, I go to an evangelical, nondenominational church. I’m an elder there. It’s a well-run place. But even in the church or nonprofit world, you can be so focused on the mission. We’re trying to bring clean water to parts of Africa or whatever the mission is, wonderful goal, you can be so focused on the mission. Even a worthy mission, make the planet more environmentally conscious, you can sacrifice people along the way, even for a mission that we all think is wonderful.
Warwick F:
And obviously, in the corporate world, it can be the same way we’ve got to profits up and, hey, this person maybe is not meeting some goals, let’s find some replacements. After all, they’re just cogs in the machine. Nobody has called somebody a cog openly. But ironically, from my perspective, and I’m sure yours, if you want to have high performance in the corporate area, you have a group of committed people that feel you care for them.
Michelle D:
Yes.
Warwick F:
They got to have the skills and the qualifications.
Michelle D:
Sure.
Warwick F:
And be committed. But if they feel like you have their back, their performance will increase. So, it makes good business sense, as I’m sure you would agree and advocate, caring for people makes good business sense. I haven’t obviously listened to all of your talk, but I got to believe that’s in there somewhere, right?
Michelle D:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
Caring for people makes sense. So, talk about what does it look like practically to be a mental health advocate in the workplace? What is this change you’re trying to bring about in the corporate world?
Michelle D:
Yeah, there’s a lot of things organizations can be doing to cultivate a culture of compassion. And I would first say the first thing that they can do is start really caring about their people, especially now in the face of everything we’ve been dealing with, with this pandemic, right? Leading by example, walking the walk, talking the talk.
Michelle D:
So, one of the things that I have been working with leaders on is like, let’s help your people feel cared for, let’s teach them psychological resilience. Let’s remind them of the things that they can be doing to care for themselves and recenter themselves. It’s been a rough 14, 15 months. What is it that they need? And how do we remind them of some things they really need to be doing to recenter themselves and feel better. If they feel better about themselves, about their life, about their work, it’s all going to be a win-win.
Michelle D:
So, it’s leading by example, really extending and doing more than handing them an 800 number for mental health and looking the other way. It’s no, let us help equip you so that you start to feel the way you want to feel. So, it’s that. It’s also what are you doing in the workplace to normalize the narrative around brain health?
Michelle D:
So often, stigma paralyzes people. They don’t talk about it, they’re embarrassed by it, and therefore they ignore their wellbeing and then it escalates. So, we have a responsibility to normalize the narrative and there are simple things organizations can do to really cultivate that in the workplace. So, I guide them in different activities they can do to really open up a conversation that is comfortable for both the leader and the employee, but not too invasive, because you can’t change a culture overnight. You have to do it slowly and you have to have leaders courageous enough to go first.
Warwick F:
I love what you say. I mean, part of it is providing mental health resources. Obviously, ideally, the company would pay for it or pay for a lot of it and make it not just something that nobody wants to join, but also by modeling it. I know Brené Brown has done a lot of work on vulnerability. And one of the things we talk about here on Crucible Leadership is vulnerability for a purpose. You could talk about every dumb thing you ever did. Like you could be some line manager and say, “Yeah, I had a DUI and I did drugs and I smoked this.” It’s like, “Okay, that’s great, but what’s the point? How does this help me?”
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
It’s another thing if they’re sharing some challenge that they went through growing up, and then you say, “Well, you know what, I went through that too.” That’s where it’s vulnerability for a purpose to make them feel heard and that they’re not alone. None of us want to be alone.
Warwick F:
When you feel like your boss, your coworkers understand you and have been through maybe not your exact thing, maybe they’ve been through similar things, that helps, I mean, wouldn’t you agree, normalize. I love the phrase you used which is it’s okay not to be okay.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
If your boss and coworkers… you don’t have to get to every minute, granular level of detail, but just to say, “You know what, I’m actually not okay and here’s why.” Just the cliff notes version.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
And then share that. Does that make sense? And I would love if more bosses, more CEOs were open about their own challenges and say their life hasn’t always been rosy. I may be a CEO, but-
Michelle D:
Amen.
Warwick F:
… there’s always a backstory.
Michelle D:
Yeah, they have the ability to set the tone, right? If they’re willing to say, “I dealt with anxiety at one point,” and I’m your CEO, like, oh my goodness, people are going to talk about them revealing that and be okay, acknowledging their own stuff.
Warwick F:
And it’s going to give them tremendous hope. If he or she can be CEO-
Michelle D:
Yes.
Warwick F:
… then maybe I can. Maybe this is not like a corporate death sentence, what I went through, a life death sentence. Maybe, yes, there will always be scars, but I can have a fulfilling and rewarding life. I can overcome, in a sense.
Warwick F:
So, yeah, I mean, just the combination of modeling, which then makes going to mental health… if your boss says, “Yeah, I had to go through counseling,” and that’s like, really, wow, then maybe it’s… because sometimes we feel like… and I’ve gone through counseling for what I went through.
Warwick F:
Sometimes you think, oh, if you go to counseling, it’s a stigma. We’re broken, we’re failed. Well, it’s like, guess what? We’re all broken in some sense. Maybe some of us may feel more broken than others. But I don’t know any person that’s human that has not broken in some way, that hasn’t had some setback, that’s affected them in their lives.
Warwick F:
So, yeah, do you feel like you’re making progress that people are listening to you? CEOs and companies that it’s not like, “Well, thank you, Michelle. That was really powerful and interesting and we’ll get back to you.”
Michelle D:
It depends, Warwick, it depends. Some leaders are very aware of the massive impact that this whole COVID has had on people, mentally and emotionally. And they want to do more. They genuinely do want to do more. Other organizations, they think that what they’re doing is adequate, right? The 800 number, they can call it if they need it. It’s like no. Like here in the United States, the CDC says that one in three Americans are dealing with anxiety or depression because of the pandemic. One in three.
Warwick F:
That’s staggering.
Michelle D:
Chances are your employees are struggling in silence and they’re embarrassed and your culture prevents them from feeling confident enough to reach out proactively and get supported. And that’s a problem.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I wonder if, and I’m sure you do this, but I wonder if CEOs begin to realize if you deal with mental health proactively and helping people feel like it’s okay not to be okay, that is a corporate strategic advantage.
Michelle D:
Amen.
Warwick F:
If your competitors don’t, I’m doing it, you will get better people and you’ll be able to retain them. And why would you want to forego something that gives you a leg up on the competition? Whether you care about it or not, and I hope they do. But even if they don’t, and it’s like, I’m just about the bottom line. This will help you.
Michelle D:
Absolutely.
Warwick F:
I mean, I’m sure you’ve obviously given that speech, if you will. Do you find that begins to percolate in their brains as like, hmm, corporate strategic advantage, I like that.
Michelle D:
Exactly.
Warwick F:
Does that work at all?
Michelle D:
Yes. And you have to also look at the disability costs, right? Like people just going out, being out of work to manage a crisis is another expense. Engagement, people are not engaged in their work because they’re preoccupied with whatever they’re dealing with mentally and emotionally. There are so many reasons. And just the feedback alone from the employees who I’ve had the privilege of leading through my programs have said, “This program has made a difference for me because it’s reminded me of all the things I need to be doing. But most importantly, I feel cared for by my company and by my boss, that they’re doing a little bit more to help me feel good.”
Gary S:
Yeah, and I’m going to jump in at that point, because we’re recording this podcast at a telltale time for me. As you know, Michelle, because we were supposed to do this recording last week. My father passed away two weeks ago, as we record this podcast now. And while I am the president of my own company, so I have only myself to give myself some slack, that my clients who I work with have been exactly what you’ve been talking about, Warwick being one of them.
Gary S:
Warwick and I are friends on Facebook. I’ll post something about my dad on Facebook, Warwick will comment about that, talk to me about that, reach out and recognize that I’m going through a difficult time. Warwick, you don’t even know this, as we were waiting for this recording to begin, the folks at SIGNAL, the branding agency that you have, that I work with as part of your team, they send flowers on my dad’s passing that are right here.
Gary S::
Now, those things don’t end the pain and the mental struggle, but they do make you realize that people care, that people look at you as something beyond just here’s a task he can do, here’s the bottom line he can help us achieve. That, I think, is the essence, in some ways, Michelle, of what you’re trying to tell people when you say find that culture of compassion, that culture that says, okay, tasks maybe can stop for the day.
Gary S:
You were very gracious when we miscommunicated because I was in a bit of a fog. And you were very gracious when we missed the first opportunity to do this interview, and now we’re doing it. And I’ll go in with your conversation about higher power and God’s involvement. I got to believe it’s not a coincidence that you’re the guest that we had on the line when my father passed away.
Gary S:
So, let me thank you for walking your own talk in that you were very gracious toward me because I didn’t send the email or didn’t get there. And you were waiting and it didn’t happen. All of that does help add up to feeling like more than a number. That’s where I’m at. I am more than a number to those folks with whom I work, and that is a critical part of the healing process. For me, that’s what it’s been and I imagine you’d say that’s true for others as well.
Michelle D:
Oh, absolutely. I say this all the time in my psychological resilience program that we all navigate these types of life-altering experiences in a very unique way, right. Like, I’ve lost my parents, but my experience is very different than yours. We all are going to experience these challenges of life in our own unique way and we can’t compare ourselves to other people. What we need to do is really just extend that compassion to whatever is needed at the moment. Like, just be human again.
Michelle D:
And I think that that’s what’s fundamentally important, especially around COVID. People struggled for 14, 15 months. Other people appeared to be fine. Everybody has been in their own boat in the same ocean and just trying to do the best they can. And we’re not going to get out of this without a mental health crisis that’s looming and PTSD from all that we lost during this. So, we really do need more compassion now more than ever.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And I think along with compassion, the word that comes to me is grace. When people go through tough times, whether it’s the loss of a loved one, or a divorce, or mental health challenge, if they’re a valued employee, and I’m assuming you wouldn’t have hired them if they weren’t valuable. They have a good attitude, they try, and that’s one thing. If nothing ever gets done, they have a poor attitude, year in, year out, okay, that’s a different problem you have.
Warwick F:
But let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that they try hard, they’re a valuable member of the team, they’ve got the skills you need, all of the benchmarks that they wouldn’t be there if they didn’t have them, then when life events happen or challenges, cut them some slack. Give them some grace. Don’t say, “Hey, X key performance indicator that has to be done by Friday. I don’t care what’s happening in your life, get it done.” It’s like, really? That’s not how you should treat people.
Warwick F:
I mean, that old adage, treat people the way you would like to be treated. If you’re going through something, wouldn’t you want a bit of grace? Maybe somebody else can pick that up for you, or maybe it’ll take a bit longer to get it done. And none of us are perfect in this in terms of extending the grace we should. But compassion and grace go a long way to making people feel valued and treasured, if you will. Does that make sense?
Michelle D:
Yeah, it totally does. But here’s the monkey wrench in that whole conversation you just shared. You can’t have compassion or empathy for someone else if you don’t have it for yourself. So, a lot of times, people are acting the way they know to act because that’s how they are.
Michelle D:
So, when that woman said to me, “You didn’t bring your bubbly, upbeat self to work,” I was mad, angry, hurt, but then I stopped and I reflected, what was her relationship? Does she extend compassion to herself? What were her biases around mental health and depression when I shared that with her? So, there’s a whole host of self-awareness and biases and self-compassion that plays into the ability to be compassionate.
Warwick F:
Well, I mean, what you just said is so profound. I mean, I’m reminded of the title of your book, Breaking into My Life. To a degree, and I don’t pretend to be a mental health expert or even a theologian, but there is a sense where I wonder how easy is it to forgive others if you can’t forgive yourself?
Michelle D:
Right.
Warwick F:
Which goes first? I don’t know. But certainly, one plays into the other. I’ve had years of experience of forgiving my own. It’s not so much I tried to hurt anybody, which really my own stupidity. I was young and naive. And, okay, I was young and naive and made some dumb decisions. Would have I made those decisions now? Probably not. I think I’m better at seeking good advice. Rather than what I did was, in my case, it’s classic.
Warwick F:
I ignored the advice from the good investment bankers who said “Don’t do it, it’s too risky.” I listened to the people that were more looking for a big fee who said “Yep, go ahead.” It was a classic how to be stupid and make poor business decisions. It was incredulous, what I did.
Warwick F:
But okay, so I was in my late 20s and I made some dumb decisions where you got to forgive yourself. And it’s so true. And if you can’t forgive yourself, then, yeah, you’ll probably treat others the way that you feel like you should be treated. I hadn’t quite thought about it that way. But yeah, I mean, that’s such a good point you’re making.
Michelle D:
I arrived at this well after the incident. And I’m present to it because one of the chronic complaints I heard from employees was “I’m going to kill my partner. I’ve now been in my home with them for 12 months. They’re driving me nuts.”
Michelle D:
And so, I actually have a module in my psychological resilience course where I talk about the importance of self-compassion and grace, and having an understanding of how to extend your own compassion to the ones around you. Because people were at each other’s throats, people were arguing, and their family unit was struggling.
Michelle D:
So, we had to have a conversation about compassion for yourself and for each other, and really trying to understand that they’re doing the best they can in the circumstances that they’ve been given. Even though we’re all dealing with COVID, their experience is very unique to them. So, we really do have to step in other people’s shoes.
Gary S:
That is a time where there was enough silence in the conversation that I heard the captain turn on the fasten seatbelt sign and we’re getting to the point where we’re going to have to land the plane. But before we do that, and Warwick will ask at least one more question, Michelle. Before we do that, before the captain does put the plane on the ground, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let our listeners know how they can find out more about the fascinating services you offer as that bridge between them and the corporate world, or if they’re in the corporate world, between them and their employees.
Gary S:
How can people find out more about your services and you?
Michelle D:
Sure. You can go to careforyourpeople.com and you can learn why it’s so important to do a little bit more for your people, and you can connect with me there. And if you’re interested in learning about my story, you can easily go to Barnes & Noble or Amazon and look for my book, “Breaking into My Life.”
Gary S:
Fantastic. Warwick, what else can we pick Michelle’s excellent brain on?
Warwick F:
Well, a lot, I’m sure. But I love this image you have of the bridge between helping people confront their mental health and being able to get the support they need. Do you feel like that’s really a symbol of what your mission is, being the bridge? And if so, just talk about that metaphor, because that’s such a rich metaphor, being a bridge.
Michelle D:
It’s one of those things where if you can… the thing that I learned from giving my TED Talk and from writing the book was that the courage to go first creates an opening for other people to not feel so alone. So that’s why I say I’m the bridge because I have no problem telling my story. I want you to hear my story. I want you to understand that it’s perfectly normal to deal with mental health challenges and we can thrive in the face of them. It’s not a death sentence.
Michelle D:
So, I think it’s so important that we have people that are willing to go first, that can open the door, open the narrative, and that’s how we remove stigma. So, that’s why I say I’m the bridge because I want people to get comfortable with their brain health, so they’re not hesitant to get support and they can do so before they hit a crisis.
Warwick F:
One thing that we talk about on Beyond the Crucible, I talk about a lot is, and I don’t know if you found this, but as you talk about what you went through, there’s a healing component, a healing balm as I talk about. When you share that and people don’t look at you biblically like leper, unclean, please leave the town, you’re broken, I just don’t want to ever be in your presence because some of your negative experiences may rub off on me or whatever. They wouldn’t say that, whatever they’re thinking. Whatever we think they’re thinking.
Michelle D:
Right.
Warwick F:
But I know, as I’ve shared my story and I’ve mentioned before, for a number of years, I would refuse to go to reunions. I was fortunate enough to do my undergrad at Oxford and then I got my MBA at Harvard Business School. So, for instance, Harvard Business School, Boston is a little bit closer to where I live in Maryland. I wouldn’t go because I felt too ashamed, too embarrassed. But I finally said, you know what, I’m just going to go.
Warwick F:
And it’s not like I’m the first Harvard MBA that has had a business challenge. I mean, it’s obvious in hindsight. And they were like, “That’s okay, Warwick.” I mean, I wasn’t seen as this leper. So, as I started to do those things and share my story, I wasn’t like thrown out of the town or the village.
Warwick F:
And as I saw that my story could help others, that gave… I know it sounds so trite, but that gave some purpose to the pain and there was a healing element. I’ve got to believe you’ve experienced that. And if you have, is that something you talk in some of the courses you do?
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Sharing it actually, not only helping others, it helps you to. Does that make sense?
Michelle D:
You have no idea. You are absolutely right. Writing this book took four years, and it was hard and it was cathartic. And when I finally finished writing it, I said to myself, I can have people see that there’s hope, that our past doesn’t dictate our future, that we still have the pen in our hand to write our future. And I think that sharing my story about my own depression helps people see the hope that it’s possible, that you can navigate life, and you can deal with it, and you can move forward. And I think we all need to recognize the power of our stories to really show hope for people who need it.
Warwick F:
Well, it’s funny, one last beat on this, I almost laughed at… four years is pretty good. For me, it was more like 12 years.
Gary S:
I was thinking the same thing.
Warwick F:
Three times as long. But I love that image of the chains and why it’s such an awesome cover. But I gave the talk in church and somehow it resonated with people that, as I say, I think I was a media mogul, former media mogul in church that day. But somehow my story inexplicably resonated with people, which still boggles my mind.
Warwick F:
But yeah, when I was writing in the next several years, that book, I couldn’t do more than a couple hours, three a day max, I would be like, this is too painful. I’m talking about the minute details of how dumb and stupid I was, and the assumptions I made that were so idiotic. And it’s like, okay, I need to take a break and recover before… you, I’m sure, would be same, if not worse, but-
Michelle D:
The same, yup.
Warwick F:
But yeah, I mean, thank you for what you do. And I love that concept of the bridge. And there’s obviously a lot of work to be done with COVID. I think people are really feeling it. But being able to help destigmatize mental health that it doesn’t mean you’re permanently damaged and you should be thrown in the garbage or whatever you feel about yourself. From my perspective, I think our Creator God loves us all just because of who we are.
Michelle D:
Yes.
Warwick F:
We can be beautiful and broken, which again, is not my phrase, but it’s a good one. We may be broken, but there can be a purpose to the pain. Yeah, there is hope. So, I hope more workplaces help destigmatize it, get people help, but as importantly, share their stories. Because when your boss and coworkers share that story, then you’re probably far more likely to actually get help and feel like it’s okay to talk about it.
Warwick F:
So, thank you for being on the front lines. There’s a lot of work to do, I’m sure.
Michelle D:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
The battle is a tough one. But thank you for being in the thick of things and a mental health advocate in the workplace, sorely needed. So that’s incredible mission that you’re on, Michelle, so thank you.
Michelle D:
Thank you. Thank you, Warwick.
Gary S:
I have been in the communication business long enough to know when the last word has been spoken on a subject and that was it. The plane has landed. And I’m going to offer a personal reason why I know the plane has landed because on the floor, my feet are perfectly flat. That is something. On the first plane ride I ever took, my dad taught me when I was nervous, when the plane lands, put your feet on the floor flat. And I still do it to this day when I fly.
Gary S:
So, the plane has landed and the conversation has ended. I have for you, listener, I have three takeaways from our conversation with Michelle Dickinson. One, don’t rush the process. There’s not a statute of limitations on your crucible. Moving beyond it is not something you have to do with a time clock ticking. As Warwick puts it often, focus on continuing to take one small step at a time as you chart your course back from your crucible and on to your life of significance.
Gary S:
Takeaway number two, comfort is not always comfortable. And it’s not always our calling. We’re not always called to comfort. Listen to the voice in your head. Listen to your heart. Listen to the tug that is pulling you into something that might be a bit audacious, that might be a bit outside the box, that could be scary. That may very well be your life of significance calling out to you. Explore it and find out if that’s the case, and if it is, buckle up and get going.
Gary S:
The third takeaway we’ve not discussed, but it’s too good to not discuss. We have guests fill out forms before we interview them and we asked some questions. And one of the questions we ask is what’s one bit of advice you’d offer listeners to help them overcome their own crucible experiences and live a life of significance? What is a critical action you believe they can take to find hope and healing after a setback?
Gary S:
Michelle has just given the best answer I’ve ever read to that through 73 or four episodes. This is what she wrote, the third takeaway from today’s episode. Life is always happening for us, even when it appears crappy. Know that it is serving us something we can learn from. We are stronger than any circumstance. And you, listener, are stronger than the crucible that you have been through.
Gary S:
So, until the next time we are together, please remember that that crucible that you’ve gone through, maybe it’s crucibles that you’ve gone through, they are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning of your story, because they can lead to, once that chapter is completed, as you move beyond your crucible, they can lead to the most rewarding chapter of your life because that life will lead, when the final period is placed on the final sentence in the final chapter of your book, it leads to a life of significance.
Shawn Harper has learned from his crucibles – which include extreme poverty as a boy, suffering from learning disabilities and being kicked out of two schools – that the only way to move beyond those challenges is to move through them. What he discovered on the journey changed his life – leading first to an NFL football career and now professional fulfillment as a business owner and sought-after motivational speaker. But don’t call him a success. That’s a word and a pursuit, he says, that’s rooted in image, not reality. It’s something you chase but never achieve. So for Harper the goal is winning, which he defines as pouring yourself into your hopes and dreams and making a difference in the lives of others where and when you can. In Crucible Leadership terms, that means living a life of significance.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Shawn H:
I was not going to be defined by the pain. And I was going to take the power from the pain. That is the only thing really that separates a superhero from normal people, outside of talent, is that they see the pain, they see the villain, they see the buildings being blown up, everyone is running one way, and they decide to run the other way into it. That is it right there. The calling card to greatness is adversity. And you have to make a decision. Do you run from it? Do you cower away from it? Or do you set your sail, and it seems like it’s impossible, but you fight through it? You fight to it, and you fight through it.
Gary S:
So, which way do you run? When you’re hit by crucibles do you keep the pain and loss at arm’s length, or do you lean into the lessons those setbacks and failures can teach you?
Gary S:
Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. This week’s guest, Shawn Harper, has learned from his crucibles, which include extreme poverty as a boy, suffering from learning disabilities, and being kicked out of two schools, that the only way to move beyond those challenges is to move through them. What he learned by doing so changed his life, leading first to an NFL football career, and now professional fulfillment as a business owner and sought-after motivational speaker. But don’t call him a success. That’s a word and a pursuit, he says, that’s rooted in image, not reality. It’s something you chase, but never achieve.
Gary S:
So, for Shawn, the goal is winning, which he defines as pouring yourself into your hopes and dreams and making a difference in the lives of others where and when you can. In Crucible Leadership terms, you’ll discover in this conversation with Warwick, it’s his way of describing and living a life of significance.
Warwick F:
Well, Shawn, thanks so much for being here, and super excited to have you, and love talking about your book, The Winning Edge. And you have a particular, different definition of winning. You’re a business leader, speaker, author, and former NFL player.
Warwick F:
So, before we get to all that, I’d love to hear a bit about the backstory, the origin story of Shawn Harper. Kind of where you grew up. And I know you mentioned you grew up in Columbus, Ohio, which, as you know, I mentioned I’m from Australia. My wife actually is also from Ohio, but nearer Northeast, Ohio. Youngstown. So, her family were all obviously Browns fans, being that part of Ohio. So, yeah. Just tell us a bit about Shawn Harper, and how you grew up, and your parents, and yeah, just sort of the backstory.
Shawn H:
All right. Okay. So, I’m going to make an attempt to not only explain my story, but I’m going to have it to segue into the whole winning concept. And before I go any further, thank you guys for having me. Thank you for this opportunity. And I pray that it would be a blessing, that it can not only affect, but infect thousands.
Shawn H:
I was born and raised on the South Side of Columbus, Ohio. And most people, when they think of NFL professional athletes or even business leaders, they have this concept of this person being all-star, all-AAU, all-intergalactic universe, and all that stuff. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Shawn H:
I had to repeat the first grade. Learning challenges throughout my entire life. Documented with four to five learning disabilities. Single-parent family. We weren’t poor; we were “po”. That’s a big difference. It’s a different level of being in poverty. The whole government cheese. It was really bad. And stuttering my entire life. Could not complete a sentence until college. Being kicked out of two schools because of disciplinary issues.
Shawn H:
I wasn’t a bad boy; I was a mad boy. And there’s a big difference between bad and mad. I just relished the opportunity to just vent the anger of not having a father, being in poverty, not having opportunities afforded to me, or thinking that I can never achieve these opportunities. It feels like you’re just being emotionally emasculated at that point or in that juncture of my life anyway.
Shawn H:
After being kicked out of my second school, I went to Independence High School in Columbus, Ohio. I was a sub-average athlete. Barely started. I wasn’t even honorable mention all conference. I was the guy that would get the participation trophy. I was the butt of everyone’s jokes. Just hit with adversity, after adversity, after adversity.
Shawn H:
The thing about adversity that I love is that it can break you. It often breaks you. But it also can make you a record-breaker. And the difference is your perspective of the challenges and of the adversity that you’re going through.
Shawn H:
I was headed off into the sunset of just being a sub-average, impoverished young man. And then the phone rings. The phone rings and there’s a junior college, a two-year school in Mason City, Iowa. And the coach is like, “Shawn, I want you to come to Iowa to play football.” And I’m like, “I’m from the hood. I’m from the South Side of Columbus. And you want me to go down to the corn fields? Literally, between two corn fields. You want me to play football?” Click. I hung up.
Shawn H:
Something happened in that moment though. The dream of one day playing professional sports began to germinate, began to move, and it’s like, “Call that coach back.” And I said, “Coach, if you’ll have me, I’ll come.”
Shawn H:
And I go up to Mason City, Iowa. Like 26,000 blonde hair, blue eyes. Everyone’s last name is Schneider. I mean, like-
Gary S:
Hey, wait a minute. That’s close to Schneeberger.
Shawn H:
There it is. German.
Gary S:
Hey, man.
Shawn H:
I’m sitting here and I’m like, “What in the world?” But in the moment, after the first season or towards the end of the first season, I had this epiphany and it went something like this. You’re right. I can’t be successful. I don’t have the grades. I don’t have this. I listed like nine things that I was lacking. You don’t have that. You’re not even starting now. It’s not going to happen. But I can win. And the moment I said that, it was like my body, things began to switch on, there’s lights, and wait a second, that’s a different perspective. Success is blocked, but winning, you can win.
Shawn H:
And when I made that connection, not comment as much, but the connection, I began to connect with the DNA of who I am and, in my opinion, who every human being is, and that is that they are born winners. One out of three, four million sperm cells, you’re the one that fertilized the egg. You are the winner. Which is why we love gambling. Well, I don’t, but people do. Which is why people love sports. It’s because they love to win. It’s not about success; it’s about winning. That has been hijacked. And so, my new model is now, if life is a game, you play to win.
Shawn H:
And once I adopted that, I began to move through different avenues to MacGyver life, MacGyver opportunities. Went to Indiana. Draft Day in NFL. Third pick in the fourth round. Opened up companies. Began to speak. And I used that winning perspective and the winning mindset from the locker room to the boardroom.
Warwick F:
Well, I mean, that’s an amazing journey. I mean, for a lot of folks, they’re probably thinking, “Yeah, you said you weren’t a bad kid; you were mad.” I can, I wouldn’t say understand, at least not experientially because as I mentioned I’m from a pretty privileged background in Australia. But when you grow up with a single parent in a tough neighborhood, I could understand why it’s like, “Life isn’t fair,” you know?
Shawn H:
Right.
Warwick F:
It’s like whether it’s poverty, injustice, all of the things that I’m sure is sadly very normal, how do you get over mad? Because some people, they stay in mad, and they never get over mad, and they say, “This isn’t fair. And this isn’t right,” which is a true statement. It’s not fair. It’s not right, being a single parent growing up in a poor neighborhood. But how did you change from mad? Because not everybody does.
Shawn H:
Right. So, once you make the statement, “This is not fair,” now you have to make a decision. And the decision is, do you settle with the fact that it’s not fair and you create excuses and you become a victim? Or do you say, “You know what? It might not be fair, but I’m going to make the best out of it. And I’m going to win.” And you become a victor.
Shawn H:
Oftentimes, adversity, the pressure, the pain is fuel. And if you push against it, if you fight against it, you begin to take and extract power from it. And then you begin to move through it.
Shawn H:
One of the worst things that I’ve seen is to give a person a huge win in life or “a huge success in life”, maybe $12 million or instant fame, and they haven’t earned it. They haven’t fought through the process to appreciate it, or the adversity is so tough when they get there they can’t deal with it because they weren’t primed as they were coming up through the process. Stop aborting the process.
Gary S:
I have probably, and I’m not exaggerating. If I am, only a little bit. I probably have 25 quotes of yours written down on pieces of paper here. And one of them, and I can’t find them right now because there’s too many pieces of paper and the type is too squeezed together. But you said, either in your book or in an interview, you said that we’re not born winners or losers; we’re born choosers.
Shawn H:
Yes. And so, I have to actually redact that because…
Gary S:
Oh, okay. Well, it’s breaking news.
Shawn H:
Yes. Well, no, I have been saying that for about two years now because I’m a winner, and I just now have to manifest and to move in, and to behave like I really am. And that, to me, is probably one of the greatest steps to achieving greatness in life is your self-concept.
Shawn H:
Who are you? Because let me tell you something. If you don’t know who you are, you’re who they say you are. And once the world can brand you and label you, it has all authority over you. “You can never grow past your name”, which is why in the good book, this is why in the word of God, when God wanted to do something extraordinary, the first thing he did was tell them what I’m going to do, and then he changed the person’s name.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Like from Abram to Abraham; Sarai to Sarah. I mean, there’s a lot of examples.
Shawn H:
Saul.
Warwick F:
Yeah, Saul to Paul. Exactly. And so, what was the key moment for you as you were growing up, maybe it was junior college, where you went from being mad, this is unfair, to you know what, it may be unfair, but you changed your self-concept, you changed almost the definition of winning? What was that key moment in which you made a shift in your thinking, a significant shift?
Shawn H:
Okay. So, after, I’m Shawn, this is who you are, you’re a winner, let’s go for it, I began to do what winners do. And one of the things that I’ve noticed that winners do is that winners separate themselves. They always separate themselves. That’s what makes them a winner is that they are distinct.
Shawn H:
And so, I’m in Columbus, Ohio, and I’m like, “This is what I want to do. I have to go back to school.” And so, I packed my bags. I went back early. I went back like four months early. I’m in a hot, sweaty, stinky college dorm room. And I’m practicing twice a day. I’m taking summer courses. And I’m practicing twice a day. I left Columbus, by myself in a dorm room, and I practiced twice a day.
Shawn H:
When camp time came around, I was so much further ahead. I studied the plays. I learned the schemes. I learned the offense. Then I took 22 hours in one semester. That’s crazy. 22 hours in one semester. I was able to graduate a half semester early, which made me more marketable to Division I, which I was going for, Division I schools. You’d get me six months early. And that is the strategy and the tactic that I took was separation.
Shawn H:
I wrote 200 colleges. Well, truth of the matter, I wrote one letter and I xeroxed it 200 times. I signed it though, just to make myself, this is who I am. I put myself out there. The phone began to ring. I had more options. And winners focus on separation.
Warwick F:
Wow. And so, was there a mentor? Or what led you to make that decision when you were in junior college in Iowa, that I’m going to go there early, I’m going to look at the playbook? You made a decision. Was there any outside influence? Or you just said, “You know what, today’s the day I’m going to change the course of my life”?
Shawn H:
I was going through a breakup, and I said, “You know what? I’m out of here. I’m out of here. I’m going to focus on going to the next level. I’m going to focus on me. I’m going to get myself together.” And I packed my bags. I jumped on a Greyhound business. 22 hours. And I landed back in Mason City, Iowa.
Warwick F:
And would you say that’s when you changed your self-concept, where maybe life’s not fair, but I’m not going to be a victim, to use your words, I’m going to be a victor?
Warwick F:
I mean, you mentioned before, life’s about choices. You made a choice. You made a profound choice. And that’s one of the things that comes up a lot in Crucible Leadership that… we’ve had folks, like a Navy SEAL that was injured, became a paraplegic in a training accident. We’ve had victims of abuse. We’ve had business failures. Every kind of crucible. And some things like physical challenges, some things you actually can’t fix, but the attitude… that’s a good example, where that’s never fair when you suffer a physical challenge. That’s never right. But yet, they’ve all changed their mindset, in your words, their self-concept. And so, in that sense, using your definition of winners, they’re winners because they make a choice not to be defined by their circumstances or their crucible.
Warwick F:
And it sounds like that’s what you did, right? You were not going to be defined by your background. You were going to choose your own path and your own self-concept.
Shawn H:
Right. I was not going to be defined by the pain. And I was going to take the power from the pain. That is the only thing really that separates a superhero from normal people, outside of talent, is that they see the pain, they see the villain, they see the buildings being blown up, everyone is running one way, and they decide to run the other way into it. That is it right there is that the calling card to greatness is adversity. And you have to make a decision. Do you run from it? Do you cower away from it? Or do you set your sail, and it seems like it’s impossible, but you fight through it. You fight to it, and you fight through it.
Gary S:
This is a perfect segue into something that I’ve wanted to do since I read both The Winning Edge by you, Shawn Harper. And Warwick has his book, Crucible Leadership, coming out in October. And I wanted to read just a couple of snippets about failure that you both write about. It’s like you’re looking at each other’s homework or something.
Gary S:
Here’s from your book, Shawn, what you wrote about failure. “Failure is your friend. Failure is where the lessons are learned. Failure is where you make your adjustments. Unfortunately, people run as fast as they can from failure. They shield their lives from failure. They won’t grow and experience the opportunities. They’re taught not to fail.” You add, “You must be willing to fail. If not, you can’t grow.”
Gary S:
Warwick writes in Crucible Leadership, “Failure can be of great value. It can be the most refining time of your life. Difficult experiences can change you. In a sense, they can make or break you. Choose the path that makes you better, more whole, and a more resilient version of yourself. Failures and setbacks, your crucible moments, can feel like insurmountable obstacles, causing you to feel stuck or lost, but they can also offer an introspective inflection point that moves you toward more effective leadership and a life of significance.” That’s the life, that’s the path you both are on. And that you’re encouraging others to be on. Fair?
Shawn H:
Fair. In order for you to win, in order for you to play the game, you have to be willing to lose. And that right there is the question that you have to ask yourself. If life is a game, you’re going to play the game to win. When you step on that court, when you step on that field, it doesn’t matter how prepared you are, how much shape you’re in. What’s the odds in the back of your mind there is a chance, are you prepared to lose? When you invest, you don’t invest money you’re not willing to lose. Are you prepared to lose?
Shawn H:
And listen to this. The more you’re willing to lose, in some instances it makes you a very powerful and dangerous person. It makes you very powerful but dangerous because if you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. It’s like, “You know what, I am willing to lose this.”
Shawn H:
Now, what it’s like is, is you’re around a table full of people who are playing poker. And that person grabs six or seven chips. And they take both hands and they push them in the middle and they say, “I am all in.” And what do you do with that? “I’m all in. I’m willing to lose. Are you?” Woo. Then the lessons that you can extract from that, the techniques, the strategies, the relationships that are developed in that. We love the mountain top, but there’s water in the valley, baby. The lessons that you learn from that it’s…
Shawn H:
Listen, the average millionaire, according to Google, has filed for bankruptcy 3.2 times. If you look it up on Google and say “Google millionaire”, it says 3.2 times they have filed for bankruptcy. They have failed according to the world standards.
Shawn H:
In our educational system, I’m going to take a shot at it because they have conditioned us to fear failure. “Joe, you got a ‘F’ on your test. You don’t get a smiley face. Oh, too bad. You’re bad.” Versus, “Hey, we have a great learning opportunity here.” When I failed the first grade I had to repeat the first grade. Man, it was horrible. For years, I carried that. I carried that for years. We don’t value failure. And yet, that’s how we learn how to walk and ride a bike.
Warwick F:
Wow. I mean, that is so profound because a lot of people fear failure. And when they fail, they’re also not willing to learn lessons.
Warwick F:
I’m sure you know way more about football than I do, but you’re an offensive lineman. And let’s say you’re up against some all-pro, which I’m sure you’ve been many times, and they get by you and the quarterback gets sacked. Okay, well, that’s technically a failure. Well, you could say, “Well, okay, I’m up against one of the greatest pass rushers in history. And, of course, I’m going to get beat,” rather than, “Okay, I got beat. What lessons do I need to learn about technique and positioning?” And it’s like, “Okay, I got beat that one time. Well, it doesn’t mean I’m a failure, but what can I learn? What lessons can I learn from it?” Rather than some people, when they fail say, “Well, gee, I was up against so-and-so, all-star pro. Of course, I got beat. There’s no lessons because, heck, nobody could block that person.” That would be a different way of looking at it. But you choose the first path, which is, “Okay, if I got beat, I lost that game. In sports, very few people have won every game in high school and the pros have ever played in. That’s almost impossible. You’re always going to lose at some point.” So, you lean into failure.
Warwick F:
So, talk about what did that look like in your life in terms of not being afraid of failure, embracing it, leaning into the pain, and learning from it. How did that look for you?
Shawn H:
I’m still afraid of failure. You know what I’m saying? But you just do it anyway. I’m nervous about some stuff. I’m nervous about investments, but you do it anyway, you know?
Warwick F:
Right.
Shawn H:
Yeah. I mean, no one… which kind of leads into a totally different area, but it’s like we fear death, but that’s where the growth is. Failure is death to your reputation, death to your brand, death to your perceived value. But in that death, there’s life. And you have to go through it. You have to go through the canal of death to see the life.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I don’t know if this gets into winning versus success, but I know for me I look at it as… my failure, which in my case was sort of epic proportion, $2.25 billion failure in a sense of… that was the value of the takeover. The 150-dollar company ending on my watch. Maybe it’s my faith perspective, but I don’t look at that as… that $2 billion failure doesn’t define me. Yes, my Wikipedia entry is young, hot-headed kid, could have had it all, but lost it. That’s kind of what it says. For me, as a person of faith, my self-worth, my persona is based on God loves me unconditionally for who I am as a human being, not for my achievements. So, I try to separate my self-esteem from what I’m actually doing. So, whether I win or lose in any particular event, that doesn’t define me. I’m not defined by a game or an event. Does that kind of make sense? How would you look at it in your terms about not letting failure define you?
Shawn H:
That’s why the self-concept is so important because that is something that you’ve created, you’ve defined, and you protect. That is something that nothing in this world’s operational system has authority over is I am a winner. That happened before I was born. I’m a winner period. That’s number one.
Shawn H:
And what we do is that we tend to, or our society tends to, encourage to define what you do as who you are. And they try to create that distinction or that connection so tight. And you know what? I’ve struggled with that as well. And I have to push back on that because now it affects your decisions. It really affects your decisions. Do you keep the company? Do you let the company go? Do you do this or… well, you know what? If you’re willingly going to sacrifice yourself because it’s who you are, well, then dag gone it starts to mess with your decision-making.
Shawn H:
But the second thing about winning is, is that you don’t have to win all four quarters to win the game. You don’t have to win the first half. You could lose until the last six or seven minutes in the second half. That’s been done in the Bible throughout. And so, with you, with me, with other people, it’s like the game is not over. The game’s not over.
Shawn H:
And plus, if the game is over and you don’t see to proceed victory, we’re running a relay. So, I done handed this bad boy off to tons of people. And they’re running. And catch them if you can.
Warwick F:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), no, absolutely. So, I want to ask about this. You use this fascinating distinction between success versus winning. And life’s about winning, not success. Now, how do you see the difference between those things?
Shawn H:
Okay. So, as I mentioned earlier about you are created to win. So, if you think about the games that we played growing up, they were win-lose games. The whole thing was based off of, “Hey, win kickball. Lose kickball, badminton.” Everything is win/lose.
Shawn H:
And then around the third or fourth grade, by the time you find out that Santa Claus is not real, they introduce another concept and this concept is called success. And this concept is basically not about win or lose anymore. This concept is about something that’s not static; it’s moveable. You can shift it.
Shawn H:
And then they do what I think is probably the most damning of all, they define what success is. And then they tell you how to achieve it. So, in the US success is money and wealth, for the most part. Recently, it’s likes and popularity on social media. But up until then, it’s money and wealth and fame. And this is how you get it: primarily through education. And this is what you have to do. And you have to live here in this subdivision or in that subdivision. And you know what? Being a missionary, it’s a noble idea, but you won’t be successful being a missionary. Being a pastor, let’s just be a doctor or a lawyer. Let’s have some prestige because that is what society deems as success.
Shawn H:
The problem is, as I mentioned earlier, is that it’s not static, which means that I could have $4 million in Columbus, Ohio. I’m doing okay. I’ll take $4 million downtown Manhattan, I’m probably average. You take $4 million to Dubai, you are broke.
Shawn H:
And so, now, since it’s not static, which means that it’s a moving carrot. You’re always chasing the carrot. You’re always trying to become what you really are. You’re chasing. You’re trying to become.
Shawn H:
Winning is the fullest expression. It takes away the become, and it focuses on the believe in the being you are. So, you manifest who you are. Winning is the fullest expression of who you are mentally, socially, emotionally, financially and, to me, most important, legacy. That’s the fullest expression of who you are.
Shawn H:
Success focuses on production. Winning focuses on reproduction. It is congruent with nature. You have a talent. You have who you are. And you reproduce that. You encourage. You reproduce that. You, sir, you’ve gone through adversity. You’ve gone through challenges, both of you probably. And now you’re reproducing it with the lessons that you’ve learned.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I love what you’re saying. I mean, you often hear the phrase “moving the goalposts”. Well, success, it’s like you think you’re in the end zone, but you’re not. They just moved it 50 yards. And it’s often the case that success is defined by other people. So, in business, okay, you made a million. Well, what about 10 million? What about a billion? It’s like gee, you may be doing well, but you’re not at a Bill Gates level or Jeff Bezos.
Warwick F:
In sports, there’s always somebody better, quicker, faster. I’m a big tennis fan and Roger Federer fan. He’s won 20 majors. Well, Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic are on his heels. Rafael Nadal, they call him the King of Clay. He’s playing in the French Open as we speak. Absent something incredible, he is likely to win the French Open, move to 21 Grand Slams, and beat Roger Federer. So, it’s like if Roger Federer’s ego was defined as being the greatest of all time, which in tennis means the most majors of all time, then he’s in trouble. Or in football, it’s like how many Super Bowls have you won? Have you won any? If you’ve won some, have you won more than any other player that’s ever played? And even then, then you start debating, well, maybe it’s easier now than it was. And you never win that debate about the greatest of all time. There’s always somebody who says, “Yeah, but… ” yeah, but. And so, if your image is defined on that, you’re in trouble
Shawn H:
And what makes it really sad is two things. Number one… well, three things. Most of us, including myself, I’m like really praying about this. Most of us will lose our calling because God didn’t call our image; God called our identity. He has you here for a season, and he has you here for a reason. That’s number one.
Shawn H:
Number two, when we pursue the success game, we tend to sacrifice the other three or four that I mentioned. We sacrifice our health. We sacrifice our relationships with our family. We sacrifice so much to achieve one or two or three things.
Shawn H:
And the last is that we lose so much. We lose a lot of time. And time is the one thing you cannot get back. We lose it because we’re chasing a carrot.
Warwick F:
You know what you said is, again, forgive me for keep saying this, but so profound. I mean, I’ll probably use the “P” word a few more times, but yeah. I mean, identity versus success and calling. I mean, in a faith perspective, we get that, but there’s a lot of people that don’t. Every once in a while, I am amongst other things certified executive coach, and people will say, “Hey, I just sold my business or I left my job. I’d love to just chat as a friend.” And say, “Okay, that’s fine.” We’ll have lunch. And I’ll ask them, what are their skills, and what are their passions, and usual stuff. And then if they’re a believer I’ll say, “So, how does what you’re thinking of doing, how does that fulfill a kingdom purpose?” which is a faith-based way of saying “calling”.
Warwick F:
What saddens me is 9 times out of 10, not only will they not know how what they do will fulfill a kingdom purpose, they won’t even understand the question. It’s as if I’ve just said, “Explain to me quantum mechanics or nuclear physics.” They’ll be like, “What did you just say?” And in a broader sense, it would be saying to people, “Tell me what your calling is.” I mean, how many people do you know, if you ask, “What is your calling?” I feel like a lot of people are like, “I don’t know. Never thought about it,” you know?
Shawn H:
Right.
Warwick F:
I’m a doctor. I’m an accountant. I’m a football player. I’m a missionary. Okay, but whatever. But what’s your calling? You know what I’m saying? I mean, that’s not something people think about.
Shawn H:
Wow. It’s unfortunate because the success model hijacks their worldview. And once your worldview is hijacked, it’s like you have on glasses and you see everything through those lenses. So, now it’s to the point where calling and purpose and destiny is not even in the picture. You can’t even see that. Christianity or faith period is something that is like an accessory to a nice jacket versus being the pulse or the-
Warwick F:
Yeah. It’s something you do on a Sunday, but it has nothing to do with what you do the rest of the week, you know?
Shawn H:
Yeah, yeah.
Gary S:
What’s fascinating to me about this conversation, if I can jump in, what’s fascinating to me about this conversation, and because we’re in the area of football a little bit, I’ll pull out some football analogies. You guys are both talking from the same playbook. You’re using different plays out of that playbook, but you have the same, let’s say, offensive coordinator. God has directed you both down this path.
Gary S:
Shawn, you talk about winning. Warwick, you talk about a life of significance. You both talk about the importance of leaving behind a legacy. And you both talk about things that can steal that, that idea, Warwick, for you, of being the G.O.A.T. can rob you of those things that lead to a legacy you can be proud. What you talked about, Shawn, the success and chasing the money and the prestige, that saps your relationships, that ends up ultimately in the end sapping your legacy. Warwick, you say it’s about a life of significance. Shawn, you say it’s about winning. You guys are both… it’s the exact same playbook; it’s just different plays within it.
Gary S:
And I think, I hope, listeners, you’re catching that, that despite their different backgrounds, their different crucibles, their different experiences, they are both mapping out plays, if you will, of how you win, how you have a life of significance. Lean into that. Learn from that. And apply that in your own life.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. I mean, as you’re talking, and I love the word “legacy” that you used, Shawn, and Gary just mentioned. It occurs to me, if somebody, a family member was to give a eulogy for you or me or anybody, it’d be interesting to ask, “So, what would a winning legacy look like for you?” And that begins to backtrack into calling, and what does that look like?
Warwick F:
And I’m sure you have in your mind what a winning legacy would be like for Shawn Harper, for when your kids are there giving your eulogy. And you want them to be proud of you. You want them to think, “You know what? Dad was pretty awesome. Yeah, he was a good football player, but he was a whole lot more than football. And this is who my dad was,” kind of thing. That’s what we all live for rather than, “Okay, he won some Super Bowl rings or he didn’t,” or, “He was all-pro offensive lineman or not.” It’s like they’re not going to really care about any of that stuff. It’s going to be a bunch of other things that they would define as a winning legacy, don’t you think?
Shawn H:
Yeah. In fact, I just had that experience about four days ago. I attended the funeral of my mother. We buried her this past Saturday. And the place was packed. And she was 82. 82 years of age. But the legacy…
Shawn H:
And I gave a story on social media about that, about me having the first major meal without my mom. And I’m sitting in the kitchen, this is funny, I’m sitting in the kitchen, and I’m looking at this pot. I’m looking at this pot. And I’m like, “Why am I keep… I keep staring at this pot?” And I realized that I don’t know how to make the gravy. But my mind races back to when I was six years old, and how I would sit in the kitchen, and my mom would make gravy and other things. And she would talk to me all day.
Shawn H:
And I just replayed the moment, replayed the flour, replayed all the ingredients. And I was able to make the gravy, once I was able to move past the grief. And that there’s grief in the gravy. And that gravy is the legacy. Edith Harper is gone. There was never a cookbook. And it was nothing she never taught me. I just watched. I watched. I can soon learn to do it, if you’ll let me see me done; I could watch your hand in motion, but your tongue too fast may run. I watched her make gravy. I watched her live life. And now I’m teaching my son how to cook now. And I’m allowing that to come through.
Shawn H:
So, at the funeral, the winner, the people who win, or to measure the win, is when you look around at the people and you see a little piece of Edith Harper in everyone around. You know what? The legacy continues from her mom, to her, to my kids. That’s the win.
Warwick F:
That’s amazing. So, when you think of your mom, what were some of the elements of, I guess you just outlined some of it, but her legacy? I mean, she didn’t grow up with a lot of money, but yet she left a powerful inheritance in the broad sense of that word, in the spiritual sense. She was wealthy in the kingdom, perhaps. So, what were some of those aspects, would you say, of her legacy?
Shawn H:
One of the greatest aspects of Mom’s legacy, and as you know I am a believer, is that she taught me about the spirit realm. She taught me about prayer and about warfare, getting up three, four o’clock in the morning, praying through things.
Shawn H:
I remember, after my father divorced my mom. That’s the first thing. The second thing is, is that she cried out to God. She said, “God, how am I going to make it?” And she said God told her, “If you give 20 bucks to the poor every single month, I will take care of you and all your six/seven kids. They will never want for anything, if you take care of my kingdom.”
Shawn H:
And so, she made me cognizant of the spirit world, how you sow, how you give, how you pray, how you forgive. She taught me the keys or the rules of the kingdom, which has allowed me to navigate life to the point where people are like, “How the heck are you even at this juncture?” It’s not me. I know the system and I know the rules because Mama taught me the rules.
Gary S:
I’m going to jump in, Shawn, only because my father died two weeks ago. So, I know what you’re talking about when you talk about sort of the terrible tenderness, the savage sweetness of those kinds of moments. And my dad, very similarly to what you just described your mom as doing, she wasn’t necessarily… she wasn’t pulling you aside and saying, “Here, Son, here’s how you cook.” You watched her. She spent time with you.
Gary S:
My dad, similar kind of situation. And part of what we’ve been talking about here is that when you chase success, your time goes there, your time is pulled away from your loved ones, and that can degrade that legacy in the eyes of children. The thing that stands out for me about my dad, as a Christian man who spent the early 2000s in church, in evangelical churches, that was the era of the men’s group, the men’s retreat. And men would always get together on the weekends. Men would get together. They’d haul off, they’d steal our watches, and we would sit around. But one of the things that happened in there is I always heard men say, or I frequently heard men say, “My dad never told me he loved me. I didn’t know my dad loved me.”
Gary S:
And I didn’t… I mean, I had some issues with my dad in certain areas, but I didn’t have that one. My dad told me, from the moment I could understand what it meant, that he loved me. And he spent time with me, but he also, he showed me and he told me. And that made all the difference in the world in who I became in terms of being okay with my emotions, being able to express love for people, being able to do that. That’s his legacy.
Gary S:
His legacy is my relationship with my stepchildren. That’s where that comes from. And he didn’t set out to do that. That wasn’t on his to-do list. He just spent time with his son. And that is what is so important about this discussion, is take the time to focus on the things that are going to matter when everything else burns up, as the Bible says. That’s where legacy is born.
Shawn H:
Yeah. I have never talked to an individual, 70-plus years of age, and had him or her talk about their portfolio and net worth. They always open up pictures, “These are my grandkids. This is this.” They always focus on things that we should have focused on in our 20s and 30s. And I don’t want to be that person. And I don’t want anyone listening to be that person, to take the last four or five years of their life with maybe oxygen or living in a home somewhere, talking about wisha, coulda, shoulda. That regret is… man, there’s… wow, the pain of regret is like a slow churn in your soul. You don’t want-
Warwick F:
Yeah. That’s one of the things we talk about is live your legacy today. There’s a song that obviously everybody’s familiar with, the Cat’s in the Cradle by Cat Stevens. And it’s a haunting song because the refrain is the son says, “Hey, can we spend some time, Dad?” “Aw, we’ll do it soon. We’ll do it soon.” And he’s always busy. And then the son grows up. And the dad’s older and says, “Hey, Son, I’d love to spend some time… ” “Aw, Dad, I’d love to. The kids. And I’m just rising in my career. And I’m sorry, but what we’ll do it again soon, Dad. We’ll do it again soon.” You don’t want to be that dad, where you spend no time with your kids. You’re not doing the things that you love.
Warwick F:
And so, whether you’re 70 years old or 20 years old, think about what legacy, how you define your life, significance, what does winning look like to you, and live that today. Don’t define success based on what other people think it should be.
Warwick F:
If you’re a football player, maybe it’s winning Super Bowls or maybe it’s like, “I want to be the best I can be, but if I win a Super Bowl, great. If not, that’s okay. But my self-image is more than football or more than business. It’s I’m going to play. I’m going to do my best, but I’m not defined by other people’s expectations.” I mean, does that kind of make sense in terms of legacy?
Shawn H:
All the sense in the world. And unfortunately, the state of the world, I put it all on the fact that we didn’t care about our legacy.
Warwick F:
Right. And it’s funny, people chase success. There’s that old fable, if you will, of the anthill, where ants are crawling all over each other to get to the top. And one ant says to the other, “What are we doing? Where are we going?” He says, “I don’t know. It must be good because everybody else is climbing to the top.”
Warwick F:
And you get to the top, and it’s like individual success is never fulfilling. I mean, I’ve had big failures, but my undergrad was at Oxford. Worked on Wall Street. And then graduated from Harvard Business School. Well, Oxford, Harvard Business School. Sounds good. And I suppose I’m proud of it in a way, but does that make me happy and more fulfilled? Not really. I mean, it’s a thing.
Shawn H:
But see, that in itself is your ministry. And also, it’s my ministry because we’ve tasted it.
Shawn H:
They are selling this. They are branding this. They’re packaging this to 99% of all the people. “This is where you have to go. You got to go to this university. And you have to make it to this. You have to be at the tip. And once you get to the tippy, tippy, tippy top, you get to meet the wizard,” right? It’s just like… Or, “Once you make it to the NFL, wham, you have it. That’s the life. Let’s push everybody towards that wealth.”
Shawn H:
And I’ve tasted it. And you’ve tasted it. And now we can turn back and say, “It’s not what it’s cracked up to be.”
Warwick F:
Well, I mean, you would know better than I, but how many NFL players, some make obviously enormous amounts of money and they lose it. They have the cars, and maybe the girlfriends and the wives. And you wonder how many of them feel fulfilled and joyful. Maybe some do, but it’s like it feels like fool’s gold. Yeah, they may have more money than they… but it’s like are they really happy and fulfilled in the broad sense of the word? And I don’t know, it’s almost sad. Do you know what I mean?
Shawn H:
Yeah. It’s a whole new level of fear now because now you have to keep it. And now, everyone else is watching you to make… are you going to keep it? Or how can I exploit it from you?
Shawn H:
But to have that level, to actually be at that level, and then to come off of the mountain unscathed and say, “Hey guys, they’re not going to tell you this, but I’m going to tell you,” and you’re going to tell them, us, that it’s not in that. It is in your family. It is in your relationships. It is in your health. It is in this, these moments, living in the now. This is what it’s all about. I’ve already been behind the wall. I’ve seen the wizard. He’s a little man. So, stop spending your entire life on the yellow brick road.
Warwick F:
It’s being. It’s being; not doing. I mean, one of the things that I mentioned, which sounds crazy, and fortunately my publisher is a person of faith, and understands. I have a book coming out in October, Crucible Leadership. And I’ve said to him, “Look, I don’t care how many books I sell. If it’s zero or 10,000 or 100. What I feel called to do is be faithful, do my level best to obviously hopefully make it successful.” I have a great team, including Gary. But my goal is not book sales; it’s to be faithful to the calling that God has put on my life. I’m not going to be saved by a book. It’s a book. I’ve spent 12 years writing it. I mean, blood… It includes pain and suffering, but my self-image is not going to be defined by book sales, you know?
Shawn H:
Right.
Warwick F:
That’s got nothing to do with my image. I mean, I’m doing my level best to try and make it successful, but it’s just trying to… how do you help people understand that their self-image is not based on book sales or football game wins? Or how do you get people to open their eyes and have that maybe Paul-Road-to-Damascus moment? How do you get them to see you that?
Shawn H:
Well, you have to destroy the word “image” first. It’s the image that you have to destroy. See, once you are void of identity, then you subconsciously develop an image. And now, whoever has the power over the image has power over you. So, now, image is external; identity is internal. And it’s supposed to come from the eternal, right? So, check it out. When you develop a strong sense of identity, the image loses its power. So, the world has a vested interest of destroying your internal identity in the hopes that you would spend all your energies, psyche, resources to have the image. And once you live an image-based life, then the world system has you because it’s all… yeah, it’s all external.
Warwick F:
One final beat on this. Because I think from our perspective, your identity, if you’re a person of faith, need to be based on God. And the the Bible is very clear on that.
Warwick F:
If you’re not a person of faith, you’ve got to connect your identity with your fundamental beliefs and values. Most people’s beliefs and values, they’re typically not, I don’t know, greed, money, whatever it is. Typically, people aren’t living what they believe themselves. Whatever you believe, your fundamental beliefs, you want your identity to be tied to that, not to success.
Warwick F:
And you’ve just got to make… as you said, life is about choice. You’ve got to make that choice. Are you going to define your life based on success or winning in the sense you use? Is it going to be defined on identity, ideally tied to God or some other fundamental belief? Your identity is what the game’s all about, right?
Shawn H:
It is.
Warwick F:
The ultimate winning and losing is, you going to win the battle of identity or lose it? Well, it’s your choice.
Shawn H:
That’s where it is. All actions stems from thoughts. All thoughts come from your belief. And your belief is nestled in, as Maxwell Maltz says in the book, Psycho-Cybernetics, in your self-concept.
Shawn H:
And since we’re talking about God, we’ll take it one step further. In order to really be your self-concept, your being, it’s what you are belonged to. So, it’s become, belief, be, and belong.
Gary S:
We have arrived at that point in the show, gentlemen, where I normally say, “The captain’s turned on the fasten seatbelt sign,” but because I have a former NFL player as our guest, I’m going to say, it’s the two-minute warning, guys. We’ve got just a little bit of time left before the final gun goes off. I sound like I’m doing an announcer voice. That’s weird.
Gary S:
I’d be remiss, at this point, Shawn, if I did not give you the opportunity to tell listeners how they can find out more about Shawn Harper, and your speaking, your books, everything that you do.
Shawn H:
Okay. Real quick. Shawnharper.org. Shawn with a “W”. That’s my website. @shawnharperspeaker. That’s Instagram.
Shawn H:
Now, if you go to shawnharper.co, and I’m going to take this down soon. If you go to shawnharper.co, the book that we’ve been talking about, you can get a free download.
Gary S:
Here it is.
Shawn H:
Just-
Gary S:
It’s The Winning Edge.
Shawn H:
Put your name and email in. You’ll get a free download of that book. It will be sent to you.
Gary S:
Warwick, take us to the final gun.
Warwick F:
Well, Shawn, thank you so much. I just love that your concept of winning, identity, legacy, and not success. I don’t know, maybe as you’re talking to young people, maybe it’s football players or just young people in general, what’s kind of the message that you want them to hear as they’re beginning their life? What’s the key takeaway that they need to learn to map out their life, would you say?
Shawn H:
Wow. The key takeaway that I would have from a motivational perspective is resistance through persistence, is that you got to keep fighting. Get back on the bike. That’s how we learn how to ride bikes is we keep falling off the bike. You get back on the bike.
Shawn H:
From a spiritual perspective, it’s get to the belong stage. It’s where I belong to God through his son, Jesus Christ, which changes my worldview, which changes my perspective. It’s not about what I can get; it’s more about what I can give. It doesn’t come to you if it can’t get through you. Live your words, life and your words and your actions as a seed. Everything you do is a seed. And you’re responsible for that harvest.
Gary S:
I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word has been spoken on a subject. And Shawn Harper just spoke the last word. And that sound you heard was the final gun going off. The game’s over.
Gary S:
Here’s the good news. Shawn Harper won. Warwick Fairfax won. And hopefully, listener, you believe that you’ve won as well. Been blessed by this conversation.
Gary S:
Warwick and I have a couple of favors to ask you, as we bid ado. One, tell your friends about the show. If you’ve liked this conversation, please let your friends know about Beyond the Crucible. You can also subscribe on the podcast app that you’re listening to the show on right now so that you can never miss, you will never miss a conversation like our conversation today with Shawn Harper.
Gary S:
And until the next time we are together at Beyond the Crucible, remember this. Your crucible experiences are real. They’re painful. We know that. They can, as we said at the outset, they can knock the wind out of your sails. We talk about that a lot.
Gary S:
Shawn described some very traumatic things that he went through. If you listened on a podcast app and didn’t watch on YouTube, pop over to YouTube for the first 10 or 15 minutes of the show. Watch Shawn’s face when he’s talking about some of the things he went through as a young boy. He’s smiling. He’s describing some traumatic crucible experiences, but he’s smiling because he’s come out on the other side. He’s come out beyond it. He’s seen that that didn’t define who he was.
Gary S:
And that’s the message that comes from, we hope, this episode and every episode of Beyond the Crucible. And that is this, that your crucibles do not define you. They are not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of your crucible, if you lean into that failure, that pain, and find out what it is that you’re supposed to walk away with, more knowledgeable about, and apply that to your life going forward, your crucible experiences, far from the end of your story, they can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story. And that new chapter can be the most rewarding chapter yet because where it leads, the final period of the final sentence of that chapter, leads to a life of significance.
Have you suffered setback and failure? Then you probably have struggled with anger and maybe bitterness as you think of those who contributed to your pain. In this episode, Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax discusses with cohost Gary Schneeberger the critical need to forgive those who have wronged us (or even ourselves) in order to move past our crucibles and toward a life of significance. Warwick lays out seven steps you can begin practicing today to cultivate what he calls the noble character to practice forgiveness. From understanding the difference between forgiving someone and condoning their actions, to channeling your pain in more productive ways than being consumed by bitterness, you will walk away from this discussion with practical action steps you can take beginning today to start walking in this truth expressed by Marianne Williamson: “The practice of forgiveness is our most important contribution to the healing of the world.”
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership. When you’re angry and bitter about what somebody has done to you, you might have been fired, abused, maybe it was divorce, it could be all sorts of things in which you feel like somebody is responsible for making your life miserable. You might even think that made your life a living hell, so to speak. How in the world can you forgive them? Bitterness and anger puts you in prison. It’s like drinking poison every day. You’re the one that it’s really killing, the other person often doesn’t care. And so, why is forgiveness important? Because you’re worth it. Because if you want to move on and have a productive life, a life of significance, a life of joy and fulfillment, you cannot do it, it is absolutely not possible, unless you forgive.
Gary S:
Those are strong words, challenging words, and true words. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. What you just heard Warwick say, is a critical reality as well as a key challenge to all of us who’ve endured setback and failure and trauma and trial. As we discuss in detail in this week’s episode, we simply will not be able to do what this show aims to help us do, move beyond our crucibles if we don’t forgive those who inflicted, or who we believe contributed to those crucibles. And that includes in many instances, ourselves. How do we do it? That’s the meat of today’s conversation. Warwick lays out seven steps you can begin practicing today to cultivate what he calls the noble character to practice forgiveness.
Gary S:
From understanding the difference between forgiving someone and condoning their actions, to channeling your pain in more productive ways than being consumed by bitterness, you will walk away from this discussion with practical action steps you can take beginning today to start walking in this truth expressed by Marianne Williamson, “The practice of forgiveness is our most important contribution to the healing of the world.” The reason that we do not have a guest today is, it’s one of those episodes where Warwick and I have a discussion around some key principles of Crucible Leadership. And today’s subject is forgiveness.
Gary S:
Now, if you’re virtually or actually scratching your head saying, “What does forgiveness have to do with crucibles?” One of the things that is sort of our organizing construct for what we’re talking about, is that crucibles can tend to lead to blame in some way. Warwick has said many times on this show, if you’ve listened many times, you’ve heard him say, “Crucibles, what happens sometimes it’s your fault, sometimes it’s not your fault.” That can lead you to think, regardless of whose fault it is, it may be somebody’s fault. In a large majority of crucibles, there is blame that crops up and that blame has to be dealt with. And that’s what we want to talk about here. And that forgiveness is one of the ways, is the chief way to kind of move blame out of the viewfinder and begin the process of bouncing back from your crucible. That’s sort of a 30,000 foot level Warwick, I know you have some more concrete thoughts as we get this discussion rolling.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Very good point, Gary. Really, why forgiveness has come up a lot, is we’re all about here at Crucible Leadership, how to get beyond setbacks and failures to live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Well, often when bad things happen, whether it’s a failure of your own making, a setback, could be a physical setback, maybe we’ve had victims of abuse, we’ve had all sorts of different kinds of crucibles, very often there’s blame, there’s anger, even there’s bitterness, even rage. And the challenge is at least it’s our belief and my belief that you cannot move on with your life, you cannot get beyond your crucible, title of the podcast, without forgiveness. And so sometimes blame is something like, I don’t know. It’s something that we want to hold and cling on to.
Warwick F:
We don’t want to give them the satisfaction of forgiving them. If it’s something that we’ve done ourselves, we don’t feel that we’re worth forgiving. And so really, why we’re talking about this is, if you don’t forgive, if you don’t try to stop blaming somebody, whether it’s you, others, God, the universe, you can’t move on. If you can’t move on, you’re in what we call a prison, in a sense of your own making. This prison of bitterness and rage and anger. And that’s not a good way to live. There’s no way if you’re in the prison of resentment that you can live a life of joy and fulfillment. It’s just not possible. So, we want to help people… We’re dealers in hope, we want to give people hope here. And there’s not a whole lot of hope when you’re in the prison of blame and bitterness and anger.
Gary S:
That’s absolutely true. And it’s not… Let’s at the outset set the expectation here. Folks, if you’re dealing with some unforgiveness, if you’ve got some things that are going on because of your crucible that it’s hard to forgive someone, this is welcome to the club time, right? If it were easy, we wouldn’t have to talk about it. It would be something that would be natural. It’s not natural. Some of the crucibles, some of the traumas, I call them traumas, tragedy, setbacks, failures at the outset. That’s how I always introduce to show, it’s not easy to find forgiveness. One of the… I did a lot of searching around on the internet for quotes about forgiveness. And we’ll start off with this one from Indira Gandhi. Why is forgiveness so hard? This is what Indira Gandhi said. Forgiveness is a virtue of the brave. Ouch! Right? There’s virtue involved, and you got to be brave.
Gary S:
And those can be things that can be hard to summon sometimes and hard to manifest sometimes, as you’re moving forward. Is that true? That seems fair-
Warwick F:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Indira Gandhi, this prominent, former Prime Minister of India. Yeah, it does take courage. And one of the things which I’m sure we’ll get into, why is forgiveness so hard, because sometimes, and we’ve had all different kinds of guests on the podcast, let’s say it’s… Let’s make it really challenging. Maybe you were abused growing up by a family member or somebody else. It’s like, “Well, if I forgive, am I condoning it? Do I say it’s okay? I want them to know that this what they did just crushed my soul, crushed my life.” And the tragedy of it is, when we think somehow by forgiving we’re letting the other person win, it’s so often when people do bad things to us. This is galling, but often true, is they don’t care. If they know, it doesn’t really worry them that much. It’s galling. It’s often the case that people that do terrible things, sometimes there’s no remorse.
Warwick F:
And so we feel like we have to hold on to this because we don’t want to say it’s okay. And that’s why we’ve talked about this with multiple guests, who’ve been through horrific experiences, and they’ve pretty much all agreed that there is a fundamental difference between forgiving and condoning. And that’s something that’s actually one of the points that we’ll get into. But that’s why Indira Gandhi is right that forgiveness is for the brave, because you’ve got to be willing to say, “Okay, what happened was not right, but I’m going to forgive because I have to do it for my own sanity.” It doesn’t as we’ll get into, it doesn’t happen overnight. It requires a bit like exercise, it requires a lot of work. And you often have to keep coming back to the well. But yeah, it’s not easy. And sadly, so many of us choose not to go there.
Warwick F:
We just, “I’m not going to forgive, because I want to remember how much they hurt me, how bad that was. And I never ever want to forget.” And some reason they think by not forgetting, that’s a good way of handling it. Just fundamentally, you damage yourself. That it’s somehow people saying, “No, no, no, I’m not going to forgive because what they did was wrong.” And they can’t get past that concept.
Gary S:
Right? And the ramifications of that affect both the individual who feels that way and it can affect a wider swath of people. And one of the things we’re going to move as you’ve hinted at a couple times, or we’re going to move into the details, the steps of overcoming that bitterness and that anger and embracing forgiveness that you’ve written in a blog that should be on crucibleleadership.com by the time you hear this listener. If it’s not, it will be there shortly. But I wanted to sort of paint a picture of what forgiveness looks like in action, and what hanging on to anger and bitterness looks like in action. And it’s not my picture, this is a picture by a man named Dr. Kets De Vries, who in advocating for a forgiveness culture, cited the contrast between the results of Nelson Mandela in South Africa who was well known as he was imprisoned under the apartheid system, he was imprisoned for a very long time, finally freed and then became the leader of South Africa. And contrasting him with Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe, who handled things differently than Mandela did.
Gary S:
I’m going to read a couple of paragraphs from what Kets De Vries wrote to paint a picture of what it looks like to live in what he called a forgiveness culture and what it looks like to not, to get started on this conversation. This is what De Vries wrote. “When you fly over Zimbabwe, you see a wasteland.” That’s Robert Mugabe’s country. “When you fly over South Africa, you see something very different.” Two leaders with very different attitudes toward forgiveness. De Vries was a teacher, he says, “If I ask my class, which political leader do you most admire? 95% say Nelson Mandela.” Remember he did this research back when Mandela was still in power. When you ask why, the answer is forgiveness. At the end of South African apartheid, and after 27 years in prison, Mr. Mandela forgave his oppressors, and encouraged many of his party’s members who clamored for revenge to do likewise, telling them, “Forgiveness liberates the soul and removes fear. That’s why it’s such a powerful weapon.” In comparison, Robert Mugabe opted for bitterness, vindictiveness and hatred against white Zimbabweans and the nation’s black citizens who oppose him.
Gary S:
By encouraging supporters to forcibly occupy white owned commercial farms, Zimbabwe, once the breadbasket of Southern Africa became the poorhouse. Under his rule, unemployment rose to between 70% to 80%, life expectancy fell. In mid November 2008, Zimbabwe’s peak month of inflation was estimated at 6.5 sextillion percent, making the national currency basically useless. That’s the difference. Someone who embraced forgiveness, someone who embraced bitterness.
Warwick F:
Yeah. Gary, that is such a superb example, the contrast between Nelson Mandela, the President of South Africa and Robert Mugabe, the Prime Minister, I believe he was of Zimbabwe, couldn’t be greater. As listeners may know, Nelson Mandela was imprisoned for decades maybe in the infamous Robben Island prison in South Africa. But the difference between how they handled how they were treated was very different. As you point out, Mandela, he created these councils of reconciliation, I’m sure where appropriate, there was justice, and things were taken care of as appropriate. But his focus was on the future of South Africa, of have it being a stable, prosperous country. And he created that environment.
Warwick F:
And really, given he was in solitary for years, it would be understandable if he said, “After what you’ve done to me, and people like me, there’s going to be retribution.” But his focus was on the future of South Africa, of it being prosperous with people of all backgrounds. And as you rightly say, contrast it with Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe, that was very different. Understandably, he wanted to make people pay. But as you say, he took all the land from the white farmers, which again, you might say was a good idea, but how about trying to make cooperatives or co ownership of farms or some way in which you can empower and give black people in Zimbabwe a say, and ownership while not losing the intellectual capital? They were not able to achieve that. The focus was on retribution rather than how do we make sure Zimbabwe is prosperous for people of all backgrounds? So, you’re right, it was a huge contrast in how those two leaders handled that situation.
Gary S:
Yeah. And that word picture, that image that we’ve just talked about, it’s a good place to then jump into what your blog’s about. You use the phrase in talking about Zimbabwe and South Africa, what Mandela did allowed for the creation of a stable, prosperous country. What we’re trying to do for individuals who have gone through crucibles, and maybe bumping into some anger, some bitterness sometimes, we’re looking to set them on the path to a stable and significant life. And that’s what the seven points that you discuss in your blog, are really designed to do to set them on that path. So, the first, and you mentioned it a little earlier as we first started talking, but it’s worth repeating, the first step toward embracing and enacting forgiveness, is to realize that you’re worth it. Why is that such a critical place to start?
Warwick F:
Because, especially in one sense, when you’re angry and bitter about what somebody has done to you, you might have been fired, maybe it was abuse, maybe it was divorce, it could be all sorts of things in which you feel like somebody is responsible for making your life miserable. You might even think they’ve made your life a living hell so to speak. How in the world can you forgive them? Well, as we’ve just mentioned before, bitterness and anger puts you in prison. It’s like drinking poison every day. You’re the one that it’s really killing. The other person, as I mentioned, which is galling, often doesn’t care. And so, why is forgiveness important? Because you’re worth it. Because if you want to move on and have a productive life, a life of significance, a life of joy and fulfillment, you cannot do it, it is absolutely not possible, unless you forgive.
Warwick F:
And so forget the other person, you’re worth it, you’re… Because your life matters, and those that love you, they care for you. They believe your life matters. It’s worth it to you, it’s worth it to your loved ones, your family, your friends. The other person wins if you keep being angry and bitter, that’s how they win, if you want to look at it that way. If you want to win, you forgive them. In fact, often nothing can be more difficult to handle for the perpetrator of what they’ve done to you, is if you forgive them. I think even the Bible somewhere talks about pouring coal on some… And that’s true.
Gary S:
Heaping coal. Heaping coal-
Warwick F:
And so, I’m not saying forgive because it’s a way of getting back at them, that’s sort of a weird way of looking at it. But basically, the short story is forgive because you’re worth it, you cannot move on with your life without forgiveness. Not possible.
Gary S:
Sometimes listener, sometime do a search of forgiveness quotes on the internet, you’ll find a whole bunch of stuff. Here’s one that I found from Marianne Williamson, who we’ve talked about before on the podcast Marianne Williamson says this about forgiveness. “The practice of forgiveness, is our most important contribution to the healing of the world.” And that healing of the world starts with healing of ourselves. Before Nelson Mandela could enact policies as President of South Africa that created a prosperous nation, he had to first forgive what was done to him.
Warwick F:
And that’s true, because you look at a lot of the conflicts in the world, like in Ireland, Northern Ireland, the country of Ireland. Protestants, Catholics, it would be like, well, you do something to the other side and then they do something to one of yours. The movies are made out of this. Why you try to take retribution back on some other person. Well, they did it to my dad, my grandfather, my uncle, therefore, it’s payback time. The Arab-Israeli conflict, it never ends. Because of what they did to us, we need to do it to them. Our church has involvement in South Sudan at one of the poorest countries in the world. You have two major tribes that are in the same cycle, because somebody did something to somebody, there’s an endless cycle of retribution, which is just making it impossible to try to lift that country out of poverty.
Warwick F:
It’s hurting everybody in South Sudan. So, the point of all these examples is, lack of forgiveness can destroy countries, destroy communities, destroy the world. It is a big deal.
Gary S:
And it can, as you say in your blog, as you said at the outset of this discussion, as we got into talking about your blog, it can create a prison of your own making that you cannot get out of. So that’s point one of your blog on the seven steps to embrace forgiveness. The second point you make there is… This is critical. It’s a critical caveat, if you will. Forgiving does not mean condoning. Why is that important to stress for folks as we begin to discuss so early on, and we have seven points. Second point is, it’s not equal to condoning.
Warwick F:
Yeah, I think-
Gary S:
Why is that so important to stress at the outset?
Warwick F:
… that’s one of the biggest reasons that people say, “Well, I’m not going to forgive because what they did to me was so wrong. Because by forgiving it means I’m saying it’s okay. I’m giving them the satisfaction of knowing it’s okay.” And everybody we’ve talked to on the podcast has been through crucibles where let’s say, somebody else did something to them. They’ve all agreed, and we’ve had some people talk about pretty horrific crucibles. And the point is, forgiveness and forgiving does not mean condoning, it doesn’t mean that you’re saying what they did was right, it does not mean that there shouldn’t be appropriate legal consequences for what was done. It doesn’t mean that in certain circumstances, they shouldn’t be in prison, or if it’s a case of abuse, that they shouldn’t be distanced for the safety of yourself and your kids. So, it doesn’t mean that you don’t take appropriate measures. That’s the thing is, forgiving doesn’t mean what was done was okay, you’re not countenancing it, you’re not saying it’s alright.
Warwick F:
So, that’s a key concept, it sounds obvious, but if you’re in the midst of this blame, bitterness cycle, it’s not obvious. You’re thinking, “I don’t want to condone.” You got to tell yourself forgiveness and condoning are two different. Just because you forgive doesn’t mean what was done to you was right. It’s a huge concept.
Gary S:
Yeah. And it’s possible. In fact, many times they go hand in hand just as you said, forgiveness from an individual, right? I forgive you for this does not separate the person from any kind of consequences that their actions that caused the crucible to the individual doing the forgiving, that doesn’t release people from this. One of the greatest examples I see of this in the news from time to time, is stories of families who one of their children has been killed, either murdered or killed in an accident by a drunk driver or something like that, and the news loves to show because it’s such a counter to what seems like the eye for an eye metaphor that we like to use all the time in culture. Those stories when those things have happened, someone has been killed, a family will appear at the sentencing of the individual who was convicted of whatever crime might have been committed, and they say, “I forgive you for what you did.” I’m always in awe of that, because not only because it seems dissonant somehow, but because of the grace that’s exhibited in that moment.
Gary S:
Again, that doesn’t mean you should go free. It means I forgive you, I release you from… If we want to take this into a biblical discussion, the idea of forgiveness is to take on another’s sin. Right? To forgive someone who’s wronged you is to take on not responsibility for it, but to take it on and remove it from them and put it on you not the consequences of it. But what you’re holding “against them” you’re releasing. And that is because going back to point one, you’re worth it.
Warwick F:
Yeah. You raise a good point. Is from a biblical perspective, we should forgive because we have first been forgiven. And for people of faith if you believe that irrespective of your denomination, that should mean something. We are commanded to forgive. We have Jesus as somebody that has forgiven us. Now, if you don’t come from that tradition, obviously forgiveness as we’ve mentioned, it’s just for sake of your own soul is important.
Gary S:
And to get… So that folks don’t think that we’re camping only on the Christian religion, I just see it in an article I have here that Mahatma Gandhi said this about this very subject. “An eye for an eye ends up making everyone blind.” Right? The idea of not forgiving, right? An eye for an eye, this bad happened to me, so I’m going to do something bad to you. What you were talking about earlier, this sort of Hatfields and McCoys. I’ve got to get back at you for this, and then it just keeps going on endlessly. Here’s Gandhi saying, “An eye for an eye ends up making everyone blind.” Bad for society and bad for individuals.
Warwick F:
I think that’s true. I think really, the bigger man, the bigger woman, the one who is more mature, has more nobility of spirit, more grace, as you put it, is the one that forgives. You want to be a person of a noble spirit, somebody who is respected, who is admired, maybe even revered. Revered is… That’s a tough one to get to. I know that one should aspire to that. But hypothetically, let’s say you do, it’s the people that are often most admired are the ones who can forgive and get beyond what was done to them. That’s a mark of admiration that people have in our society.
Gary S:
And listener, I don’t do this often, but I’m going to do it here. This is like the first time I’ve done this. Your homework for this episode right now is to write down the phrase nobility of spirit that Warwick just said twice. That is a goal to shoot for. If we say at Crucible Leadership, we say a lot, authenticity is something that you should shoot for. Transparency is something that you should shoot for. Significance is the end game that you want to play for. Nobility of spirit in the context of the blame that can emanate from a crucible, having nobility of spirit towards those who have wronged you, and expressing that nobility of spirit is critical. So, write that phrase down, make that phrase part of your life, because it can make things go completely differently, and it can help you move as the title of this show is, Beyond Your Crucible.
Gary S:
The third point in your blog, Warwick, logically follows from the first two points. If you looked at those first two points and said, “You’re worth it, so forgive the person.” And forgiving doesn’t mean condoning, so forgive them even if they are really bad things. The third point seems to follow logically from that, and that is forgiveness is not easy. That’s somewhat self evident, isn’t it?
Warwick F:
It is. It’s a bit like running a marathon. Once you finish the first mile, the race isn’t over, you got… If it’s 26 miles like Olympic marathon, is you got 25 to go. Yeah, it takes time, it’s a matter of the will. It’s not like, “Oh, I don’t feel like forgiving.” What you feel like doing is really not very relevant. It’s a choice. It’s a decision, you forgive because you feel like it’s worth it from a spiritual Christian perspective, we forgive because we’re commanded to, from a broader perspective you forgive because you’re worth it. Not only are you worth it, your wife, husband, kids, grandparents, friends, they’re worth it. Because I think as you’ve mentioned, Gary, bitterness and anger, it affects more than just you, it affects everybody around you that knows you well.
Warwick F:
And so, not only are you worth it, but your friends and family are worth it. And so that should motivate, but it does take time. And it’s not like, “Okay, I choose to forgive X horrific act. Good, I’ll wake up tomorrow and I’ll feel great.” No. It takes a lot of time. It can take months, it can take years. Obviously some of that… And I think we might get into this a bit more later. Sometimes we need to get help, and we’ll talk about that in a bit. Part of what certainly helped me in the area of forgiveness is if you try to understand the other person, understanding doesn’t mean condoning, okay? But understand how people grew up. It’s very often the case that those who abuse were abused themselves. Now, I’m not a psychologist, so I can’t get my head around how that could happen. But from what they tell me, that is very common, that those who abuse were abused.
Warwick F:
And so therefore, as you think about that, just try to… It doesn’t mean you condone it, but if that’s all somebody ever knew, well, they’re probably going to abuse. So just that notion of when you have compassion for somebody, it’s harder to be angry at somebody if you have compassion for them and understanding and maybe even some empathy for them. That does take work. That’s not easy, especially in tough cases like abuse. But in my experience, at least it can help to a degree.
Gary S:
Yeah. And forgiveness is in most cases, true, deep, noble spirit forgiveness, is a marathon not a sprint. And this idea of, it’s not easy, in marathons they have little water stations that you stop at as you’re running it, just to kind of catch your breath, because they know you’re going to need to catch your breath. I think that’s what this idea of it’s not easy, it takes time. Give yourself that grace as you’re going through this process. We’ve unpacked now three steps for forgiveness.
Warwick F:
Just one more thing I wanted to say on that, before we get to the step four is, there’s a couple things, which is one is, for people that we have a difficult relationship with, whether it’s a friend or a family member, is typically won’t be one incident. Right? “Okay, good. I forgave him for this and we’re good.” As I say, it’s the gift that keeps on giving. And I’ve had experience in my life, it’s like, “Can you quit doing new stuff? Because I’m having trouble catching up. Okay? I forgave you for the last 20, but you just piled on 10 more. Give me a break. I can’t…” It’s like you’re forcing me to sprint 26 miles. How about a leisurely jog? A marathon isn’t meant to be run like 100 meter race, but you’re forcing me.
Warwick F:
I can’t keep up. Life’s not fair. I get it. And so, that’s why it’s not easy, because it’s like the Bible says, how many times do you have to forgive? It’s like 70 times seven, which is a way of saying an infinite number of times. So, it’s not easy. That’s part of why it’s not easy. And a further point that I didn’t really put in the blog is, I think forgiveness is-
Gary S:
Bonus content. That’s bonus content.
Warwick F:
Exactly. Forgiveness is a bit like weeding. So, when you feel that little, slight tinge of resentment coming up, slight anger, rage, is like, “Oh, I’m not going to go there. I know where that’s heading.” That little weed is going to become a lot little ember. Let’s change metaphors. That little ember is going to become a forest fire. Nip it at the bud. Pour water on it before it becomes a huge bushfire, as we say in Australia. It’s much harder to deal with. So-
Gary S:
I want to stay with your weeding metaphor for a second though, because… Let’s go back to that. What does weeding involve? When you’re done weeding for the day, you’re dirty, because you’ve got your hands in there, right?
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Gary S:
Forgiveness can get you dirty, forgiveness takes work. It’s not just something you snap your fingers at, to your point that it’s not easy and that it takes time. It’s like weeding. But here’s the other way that it’s like weeding. What’s the purpose of weeding? Why do you weed things out from around your flowers?
Warwick F:
Well done.
Gary S:
What are you trying to get in the end?
Warwick F:
You’re trying to get beautiful flowers or a beautiful lawn. And you don’t get the beauty without dealing with the dirt and dealing with the weeds. And yeah, it’ll crush the flowers and… Awesome points. Yeah.
Gary S:
Let’s move on now to… So we’ve gotten to the water station on our marathon, we’ve stopped, we’ve taken a sip. Now, we’re going to move on to the fourth point that you make in your blog. And this is where we really get into now some tips that you have for things you can do to help you on the process of embracing. And this is the enacting part of forgiveness. And the first one, point 4 from your blog is channel your pain in a more productive way. What do you mean by that?
Warwick F:
So, very often the people we’ve had on Beyond the Crucible on this podcast, they’ve channeled their pain in a way to help others. So, for instance, victims of abuse may try to help prevent other people being abused or for abuse survivors who have been abused, they will come alongside them, and try to help them and say, “I know where you’ve been. I’ve suffered your pain. I know what you feel like.” And there’s something very comforting when people feel not only understood, but they’re not alone. You know what they’re going through. You’re not just offering something from some ivory tower, you’re in there with them. That’s the highest degree of empathy when we can say, “I’ve been there with you, I know what it feels like. It’s awful.” It will get better, but it could take years, but just hang in there one step at a time. So it’s so often that a vision that you’re off the charts passionate about, can come out of your worst day, out of your crucible. We say that all the time.
Warwick F:
And maybe it’s not a direct correlation of, “Okay, if I was abused, I’m going to help other victims of abuse.” Maybe it’s something different. But it’s so often that you use your pain for a purpose to use that oft used aphorism. By using what you’ve been through to help others, there’s no question, there’s a healing component. And certainly, as I talk about a lot on the podcast, my crucible is a bit different. It was more certainly in large part due to my own failures and mistakes. But even… And we’ll get to forgiving yourself, which is one of the points we get to later. But I found in my own life, as I’m able to use my pain to help others, it doesn’t remove the scar completely, or the scab. But it does provide some level of healing, healing balm, as we say. There’s no question that it does ease your pain if you’re able to use it in a way to help others.
Gary S:
And in that healing for you, and perhaps for others, usually for others, there comes as you said at the outset, we’re dealers in hope here at Crucible Leadership. With that healing comes hope for you and for others, correct?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Absolutely. When you can see that you’re able to help others, that gives you hope, it gives others hope. Hope does in a sense, tends to crush resentment. It tends to crush anger and bitterness. It’s hard when you’re filled with hope. Hope leads to Joy. Joy tends to put out anger and resentment. So, this sounds a bit sort of positive psychology, if you will. But good thoughts are better than negative thoughts. Negative thoughts which could have been another point in here, anger and bitterness, I’m sure it’s not that hard to find studies that will show it’s not good for your health, it’s not good for longevity. So you want to live longer and be healthier, don’t consume yourself with rage and anger. It’s just terrible for your health.
Gary S:
And that is a is an excellent. We haven’t talked about this. This is what I love about these discussions. I withhold things from you, and then you say something, and it’s like a perfect on ramp to what I want to say. And that’s this. Here’s another quote along the lines of what you just said. This is from Martin Luther King Jr. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said this, “We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us, and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies.” If that isn’t forgiveness ending in hope, I don’t know what is.
Warwick F:
That’s so true. Yeah. The ability to forgive does help us to love and vice versa the ability to love. Yeah, there’s something about that. And as listeners know, Martin Luther King is talking about in just the whole civil rights struggle that beset the United States history for really its whole history since its founding, and a lot of division, a lot of pain, a lot of understandable hurt of hundreds of years. But Martin Luther King had an ability to not condone, to understand, to promote civil rights, yet do it in a way that in a spirit of forgiveness, not condoning, in a spirit of love. He was able to bring people together. I haven’t memorized his I Have a Dream speech off by heart, but I’m sure that there was plenty of having a dream of where there wouldn’t be division, where there would be love, where people will be treated based on the content of their character, not the color of their skin. He had a vision that’s still working itself out. I wouldn’t say we’re there yet. Hopefully, we will be one day. But yes, love is a great antidote to bitterness and resentment.
Gary S:
Yeah. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. That almost if you didn’t have three other really good points to make, I’d be like, “Let’s drop the microphone and go.” Because that really is the essence of it. One of the… Who wants to be that person who is devoid of the power to love? That’s what-
Warwick F:
I almost say-
Gary S:
… you’re urging people to do.
Warwick F:
… the most loving people are probably the most forgiving. Think of people in your life who you think, that family member, that friend, their capacity for love is as great as I’ve ever seen it. How much bitterness did that person have? My guess would be zero to very, very little. It’d be hard to think of a loving, caring person that was filled with rage or anger. Just not possible.
Gary S:
And in the… I mean to extend that a bit, in the the universe of Crucible Leadership, it’s hard to think of someone who’s living a life of significance, who is full of bitterness and anger, who cannot forgive. Certainly, Dr. Martin Luther King lived a life of significance, as did Nelson Mandela. Those folks that we’ve talked about so far who have followed this principle, this nobility of character, which you mentioned. Yes, there’s hope, there’s love connected to that. But that all points to helping others and a life of significance.
Warwick F:
Yeah, there hasn’t been one person that I can remember in the 50, 60 guests we’ve had, all of whom, the vast majority of whom have been through crucibles often horrific ones, I can’t think of any of them that are riddled with anger and bitterness. Doesn’t mean to say you don’t have an angry or bitter moment, we’re all human, but their lives are characterized by love and forgiveness. I wouldn’t say the headline of their lives is rage, anger and bitterness would be how you would headline their obituary. That’s not the case for any of the guests we’ve had. So, it’s very true.
Gary S:
Point five in your blog, which is either on crucibleleadership.com right now, or is headed there shortly. So, if it’s not there, when you check listener, please go back and check. If it is there, we’ll put it in the show notes too so you can see that it is there. Your next point is that one of the ways to enact after you embrace the importance of forgiveness is to get help. And that can take many forms can’t it?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. So, if you’re serious about dealing with blame, dealing with anger, bitterness, rage, you’ve got to be willing to do the work. If you got to run a marathon, you got to get training, you got to eat right, you got to stretch, exercise, you got to prepare. Well, you got to be serious. You can’t just say, “Oh, I’m going to forgive.” Oh really, how’s that going to happen? But you got to do the work. Part of doing the work, maybe involving counseling and therapy, it really depends. If you’re a victim of abuse or trauma, it’s pretty likely that that will be helpful and necessary.
Warwick F:
It really depends on the situation. It may be talking to friends or family members, maybe it’s… Maybe you don’t have clinical depression or some issue that you feel warrants that. Often counseling, I think many of us, myself included, have been through counseling at times where I’ve been through a few challenges myself. And one of the things that I believe is counseling, or seeking help, it’s not a sign of weakness, it’s a sign of bravery, a sign of courage. It says, “Look, I may feel kind of broken, I’ve felt pretty broken at times in my life, it’s okay to want to get help.” You don’t get mended, you don’t get healed without help. So whether it’s formal counseling from a psychologist or a therapist, whether it’s more informal, and obviously, you’ve got to know which one, it depends on the nature of what you’re dealing with. So seek help, be wise in terms of the choices you pick.
Warwick F:
But whether it’s formal counseling or a friend, mentor, family member, it’s helpful. Oftentimes, even now with my wife and not involving clinical issues, but I may be feel bad about something or resentful, or a little angry, or something, nothing massive, I’ll say to my wife, “I’m feeling bad but I can’t figure out why.” And after a short dialogue, she’ll say, “Is it this? Is it that?” She knows me very well. Our spouse, our friends, they know us. 99% of the time it works. It’s like, “Okay, got it. Now I know what it is I can deal with it.” Sometimes you feel bad, you don’t even know what the thing is, you just feel slightly agitated, slightly angry, to sort of name it, deal with it kind of thing.
Warwick F:
So, that’s… And that’s not over massive things necessarily, just things that come up day-to-day. And not everything. I’m all for counseling, not everything means you need to go to a counselor 24/7, sometimes you do, sometimes it’s a little weed popping its head up. It’s not a clinical issue, seek friends that can help you and figure it out and help you forgive. So, bottom line is get help.
Gary S:
Yeah. And one of the things I love about this discussion in the context of Crucible Leadership, is you talk, in your book you write about the need to get beyond your crucible, to enact your vision, to make your vision a reality and live a life of significance, it takes a team. Having a team around you is essential to being able to walk out your vision to get to a life of significance. The same can be said about the need of a team to get you to a place where you can both embrace and then enact forgiveness, right?
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Whether it’s counseling, family members, friends. And then as you move forward in using your pain to help others, you’ll need a team to help enact your vision, which will actually help with the pain. A team at all levels, both in dealing with the anger and bitterness, and being able to move forward beyond that to live a productive life. It requires a team and sometimes that really will lead into a point we’ll get to here in a bit, is there’s a power of kind of being vulnerable. There’s a power in when sharing what’s happened to you as… Well, it’s really… Let’s right into point six, funny enough. Modeling.
Gary S:
Let’s take it. Warwick just hijacks my role as the co host. But that’s fine. Point six, modeling forgiveness helps others and that’s part of a team thing.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Gary S:
So, please unpack that for us.
Warwick F:
And so part of vulnerability, we had actually on the podcast, quoting Andrea Anderson Polk, she’s very vulnerable about what she went through in her family and uses it to help others in terms of just a very challenging upbringing. When you’re vulnerable about what you went through, and then talk about maybe how you were able to overcome it, it helps people feel not alone, but it also helps people have hope. So, it’s possible that you can… Nobody wants to go through pain, especially horrific pain, and things that are just… May think are unspeakable in terms of how awful it was. But when you use that to help others, it’s never right what happened, but maybe there’s a purpose in that pain. Maybe, the fact in the Bible talks that the life of Joseph when his brothers threw him in a pit and sold him off to slavery off to Egypt, which is about having family members sell you off as a slave, it’s about as horrific a thing as you could possibly have happen.
Warwick F:
And Joseph says, “They meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.” So, whether you believe in God or spirituality, or the universe, there can be a sense where if you use your pain to help others, there can be a healing component, there can be a way that that awful thing that happened to you can be used for good. And that makes pain easier to live with if somehow it’s being used for good. It doesn’t make it all go away, it’s no question, it does help I think significantly.
Gary S:
Yeah. And modeling that forgiveness. We’ve talked about people like Martin Luther King, Jr. When Martin Luther King Jr. says, “He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love,” and I reflect on his life, I think I’ve got absolutely nothing I shouldn’t be able to forgive. Right? The things that he… The things that that statement models about forgiveness, what he endured, what African Americans endured in the struggle for civil rights, and in many cases still endure today, that he could say that, models forgiveness in a way that can change hearts, that makes me reorient my thinking about it. Same thing with Nelson Mandela, that he could do that makes me reorient my heart. Now, we’ll go back to the example of Mugabe, that makes me sort of check my heart, I want to make sure I’m not living in that place.
Gary S:
So, the power of modeling forgiveness is that it can help overcome some of those things that we talked about at the beginning. It can take a long time. Oh, it’s too hard. It can seem like we’re condoning it. The modeling of someone who has had much to forgive who’s transparent about what they have to forgive, the modeling of that, really can help provide a big breakthrough in our own efforts to come to that place of embracing-
Warwick F:
Yeah. Another example which we spoke about Northern Ireland and the country of Ireland, that Protestant and Catholic challenges, the troubles in 70s, 80s, whenever it was, the violence. That rift goes back hundreds of years and as historians and others might know, when the British occupied Ireland hundreds of years ago, that sort of… Some would say that led to what happened, but that hostility between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland goes back hundreds of years. There was a point at which you said, “There’s no way that that will ever change.” Hundreds of years of bitterness is tough. It has changed. It doesn’t go to zero, but it’s significantly better than it was. So forgiveness in a society, it can happen. Not easy, but it can happen.
Gary S:
Yeah. And it can inspire the people who live in that society for sure.
Warwick F:
Absolutely.
Gary S:
The final point that you make in your blog at crucibleleadership.com, if not now, then soon listener, is that it really sort of summarizes everything and may land on for some people who the hardest person to forgive is. And that is, forgive yourself. Why is that sort of the final place to talk about forgiveness for you in the blog?
Warwick F:
So, sometimes we focus a lot understandably on terrible often unspeakable things that were done to us and how tough that is to forgive. And it is tough to forgive. And again, forgiving doesn’t mean condoning. But what happens if you’re the perpetrator? My case, I was young, idealistic, foolish perhaps, I didn’t deliberately try to hurt anybody, but by launching this to $2.25 billion takeover that failed, yeah, it ended up hurting, I don’t know, four or 5000 employees, there was uncertainty. Largely speaking, people didn’t lose their job, but it caused bitterness within the family, it ended 150 years of family control of a large media organization in Australia.
Warwick F:
So, yeah. It was sort of obviously a big deal. Well, I had to forgive myself for my own naivety, stupidity, and my book which comes out in October, is largely focused on my own stupidity and the lessons learned as well as from other places, but that’s the core of the book. And so sometimes, let’s say… Let’s say you’re the person who did horrific things, whether it’s abuse or what have you. I don’t know how you forgive yourself for those sorts of things. It’s easy to say you should never forgive yourself. And I guess it depends on what spiritual paradigm, and there are consequences. Depending on what it is, you should obviously try to attone, make amends. That’s a tough thing. But I think in general, we do believe that you need to forgive yourself, because if you’re going to try and help other people, you’ve got to find a way to do that. If you are going to live a productive life that benefits.
Warwick F:
If you’re just filled with anger and rage of what you’ve done, the anger and rage will only tend to hurt more people. The cycle of damage and harm that you’re doing to others, just to take it to the extreme, it’ll keep going unless you can forgive yourself. Which again, from a Christian perspective, God forgives us because that’s why I he sent his son to Earth so that we can be forgiven from the least bad thing to the biggest. So, it depends on your spiritual frame of reference. But either way, you’ve got to find a way to forgive yourself to be able to move on, have a productive life, have some degree of joy and fulfillment and live a life of significance, a live on purpose dedicated to serving others. If you don’t forgive yourself, you’re not going to be able to help the world in any fashion or form. So, that can be the highest mountain, the toughest hill to climb sometimes to forgive yourself. But-
Gary S:
Indeed.
Warwick F:
… if you care about others like your family, your friends, other people, you’ve got to find a way, you got to make a choice. It may not be easy. If you have a degree of self awareness, that can be pretty tough. You can just want to perpetually beat yourself to a pulp. In my own way, me was more being young and foolish, I went through a lot of the 90s thinking, “How stupid can I be? Why didn’t I talk to family members? Why did I do this? Why did I do that? Oh my gosh, how dumb can I?” Why? Why? Why? Endless whys. You’re not always going to get an answer to the why’s, you’ve got to find a way to forgive yourself if you care about the people around you, and if you care about using the pain that you’ve inflicted in a sense to help others.
Gary S:
And that what you just described about forgiving yourself, I think operates on two axes. One is forgiving yourself to yourself. And I think you had a lot of that to do after the takeover failed and as you put it you made bad decisions and you had to sort of forgive yourself for ending the family control of the company and the loss of the heritage and those things. But there’s also as you alluded to quite a bit there, forgiving yourself of things that you have done to others. And I have some experience with this concept from Alcoholics Anonymous. I am as we are having this conversation 24 years sober. And one of the principles I learned first week in Alcoholics Anonymous, as one of the steps of the 12 step program, one of the steps is to make amends for those you’ve wronged, make amends to those you’ve wronged.
Gary S:
And the idea that was implanted in me by my sponsor, and the idea that’s in what they call the big book, the book of Alcoholics Anonymous that helps people along that 12 step journey, is you’re only responsible in that context for your side of the street. Yes, you ask for forgiveness, you apologize, you seek forgiveness for those wrongs that you’ve committed where you can seek forgiveness, where it’s not going to make the situation worse, where the person still around, where you can, you make those amends. But once you’ve done that, you’re not responsible for how that’s received, you have to then come to the place where you forgive yourself for what you’ve done, you’ve done what you can, you’ve cleaned your side of the street, and then you have to move on.
Gary S:
I think that’s one of the part of forgiving yourself is being able to… Is realizing that when you go to seek forgiveness from others, you may not get a… I’ve discovered 85% of the time when I do that, people are gracious, people are kind, people are loving, people are understanding. But there are some people where you don’t get that, you have to be okay with that knowing that you’ve done all you can to make it right. And that’s where you have to be able to forgive yourself.
Warwick F:
I think it’s a profound point you make there, Gary. There’s two sides of it is, if you’ve asked for forgiveness and you’ve done it genuinely from the heart, you’ve tried to make amends, do everything you feel that should be done. If they don’t forgive you, that’s up to them, that’s between them and their creator, or however they look at life. You’re not responsible for that. But the other side of the coin is, when things have been bad done to us, sometimes we feel led to confront that person and say, “What you did to me was wrong.” And you want them to apologize, you want them to ask you for forgiveness. Very often from my experience, that doesn’t happen. Most people are not self aware enough or not willing to own what they did, or the blame to apologize.
Warwick F:
So you have to… As appropriate and you have to… Whether it’s counseling, or seek the advice of family and friends, as appropriate as you feel led by all means, confront the situation, again, if it’s not a safety issue, and just say what you did was wrong and basically ask them to ask you for your forgiveness of them. That often doesn’t happen. And you got to live with that. Okay, I confronted the situation, I was hoping they’d apologize, they never did, I’m going to forgive them as an act of the will even though they never said, “I’m sorry.” In the majority of cases in my experience, people aren’t particularly good at saying, “I’m sorry.” You’ve got to be the bigger man, the bigger woman and you try, they didn’t say sorry, they didn’t apologize, you still got to forgive.
Gary S:
Right. The truest definition of forgiveness, the truest realization of forgiveness on both sides, whether you’re asking for it, or it’s coming in… or you need it, is it’s not dependent upon the other person either accepting your apology, or the other person apologizing to you. It’s dependent upon, as you’ve said many times, it’s an act of the will. It’s about the nobility of character that comes from being able to release that anger and bitterness, whether it’s towards yourself because of what you might have done, or it’s towards others for what they might have done, regardless of how that commerce has gone in the exchange of, “Please forgive me,” or someone doesn’t say, “Please forgive me,” regardless of how that goes, you have to be able to… Forgiveness is not dependent upon someone asking for apology or you receiving apology. It’s something that you control. And that’s why I think what AA talks about, what my sponsor talked about, all you’re responsible for, all you can control is your side of the street. And that’s true in the pursuit of and the reception of forgiveness.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Kind of one final point that occurs to me just on this, I think it’s very often helpful to have models of forgiveness. Family members, friends, people who have come before us. You’ve mentioned obviously Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, tremendous examples of forgiveness. If you’re fortunate, maybe you have family members, people you actually know personally. And for me, one in my life was my dad. As listeners would know, my dad had the same name as me, Warwick Fairfax, but he was knighted so he was Sir Warwick Fairfax, and he both had nobility of spirit, nobility, I suppose in title, I guess. He looked every bit the nobleman instead of central casting, if you will. But he had nobility of spirit.
Warwick F:
And that was exemplified when 11 years before the takeover in 1976, some other family members got together because they had enough shares, they threw him out as Chairman, and I was 15 at the time. I felt like it was the definition of a righteous man falsely persecuted, whether it’s true or not, depends on your perspective. But I just… I probably had my own share of bitterness at the time with a father I dearly loved, how could they do that? But in his own way, and I don’t pretend it was perfect, because few of us it’s not easy to forgive perfectly, we can only do our best. But when I asked him at the time, “Well, how did you deal with all this?” He said, “Well, I made a decision to forgive because that’s what God would have me do.” And it just blew my mind at age 15, that he could say that. Now, you could analyze that and say, “Well, Warwick wasn’t perfect.”
Warwick F:
And he may not have been perfect, but he did that because it was the right thing to do. And he thought it would be the best thing for me, he would hope one day I’d take a leading position in the company, but just that decision he made to forgive what to me seemed pretty unforgivable, totally unwarranted was astounding to me. And that’s been really the model for my life in terms of a human that I actually know. That model of forgiveness has stood with me my whole life in terms of if my father, Sir Warwick Fairfax, if he can forgive what that was done to him, then I should be able to forgive. It was a powerful model that’s been a sort of a touchstone for me.
Gary S:
Yeah. And it’s something that you’re still acting on, you’re still living through, you’re still enacting, you’re still embracing and enacting.
Warwick F:
Been a lot of decades.
Gary S:
All these years later. I don’t want to do the math, but if you were 15 then, it’s been a while and you’re still talking about it. And more importantly, you’re still living it and exhorting others to it.
Warwick F:
Right. And so the point of what you’re saying is, one of the other points is my modeling forgiveness does it help others? At least it helped me. It’ll help other members of his family. I don’t know whether he saw it that way at the time, but it wasn’t just about him, it helped other members of my family. Certainly, it helped me. So, that was a gift he gave me. That act of forgiveness. It was incredible.
Gary S:
That is a fantastic time to put down the landing gear on our conversation and begin the process of bringing the plane in for a landing. What Warwick, as you sort of think about all the ground that we’ve covered today, what’s the thought and exhortation, and insights you’d like to leave listeners with today?
Warwick F:
I’d say forgiveness is an act of the will. It’s a choice, it’s not a feeling. It’s not about I don’t feel like forgiving. That’s not relevant. What’s relevant is, you need to forgive, it’s the right thing to do, you’re worth it. Get out of the prison of anger, bitterness and resentment. If you want joy and fulfillment, if you want freedom, freedom from bondage. Bitterness is like weeds, it’s like chains, throw off the chains, seek freedom and not because you feel like it, not because other people you think may be worth it, but you’re worth it, your family’s worth it, your friends are worth it. Forgive because it’s the right thing to do and you’re worth it, it’s a choice, it’s not about how you feel.
Gary S:
This would be the moment now that we dropped the mic, boom. Plane’s landed, we’ve dropped the mic. Thank you for another fascinating discussion. And I hope listeners you found this to be a discussion that is helpful. To that end, I would like to leave you with on his blogs, Warwick always ends every blog, one blog a month, find him at crucibleleadership.com, but he ends every blog with three reflection points. And as you’ve listened to this conversation, as things have been stirred in you, here’s three reflections that we would encourage you to ask yourself moving forward about this very big topic. This is a very big subject that we’ve discussed here on forgiveness. The first reflection, What is it that you need to forgive, be it in yourself and others? Identify that thing, write that thing down, give it some thought.
Gary S:
Second, how will forgiving enable you to move on beyond your crucible? That’s a very personal thing to think about. Take the time to think about that. How will forgiving enable you to move on? Be specific, as you sort of noodle on that, as you sort of jot some thoughts out about that. And then the third point of reflection, and I love how Warwick does this. This is kind of Warwick’s default place to go when he’s exhorting you to take action. What one step will you choose to take today? Not tomorrow, not put it on your calendar for next week. What one step will you choose to take today to get out of the prison of anger and bitterness? The prison that can stifle your pursuit of a life of significance, let alone your ability to move beyond your crucible. So, listener until we are together the next time, please remember that your crucible experiences are painful, we know that. Warwick knows that, he’s talked at length about his crucible and the pain it’s caused him. I know that. I’ve talked at less length about it, but trust me, I’ve been through them.
Gary S:
But here’s the good news. Neither Warwick nor I are still stuck in those crucible moments. And you don’t have to be either. If you lean into the lessons of your crucible, if you learn those lessons, and you apply them like we’ve talked about today, one of those lessons is the necessity, the value, the life giving impetus of forgiveness. If you apply lessons like that to your life, your crucible is not the end of your story, then it’s not the period at the end of your book. It is in fact, the beginning of a new chapter in that book of your life. And that chapter can be the most rewarding chapter you have as you live out your life because where it leads to, where that final sentence will end at, will be a life of significance.
Crucible experiences are hard to get over. One of the hardest parts of getting over a devastating failure or setback is forgiving others or yourself. You may have been wronged, harmed or even abused by someone. How in the world can you forgive them for what they did to you? You may have failed and let down those who counted on you, perhaps even people that loved you. Why should anyone forgive you? How can you forgive yourself?
Forgiving others and forgiving yourself, which can sometimes be almost harder, is critical to overcoming crucible experiences. Anger and bitterness, however understandable or even justified you may think they are, do not help you. They lock you in a prison of anger and resentment, even seething rage at times. How do you move on with your life amidst constant waves of anger and rage? How do you live a productive life and live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, with such constant negative emotions? The short answer is that you don’t.
So how do you forgive? How do you, how can you, move forward? Is it even possible?
Yes, it is. Try these steps.
1. You are worth it!
Anger and bitterness indeed form a prison from which there is no escape. Perhaps somebody did something to you that you think is unforgivable. Even if that is the case, ask yourself whether that seething rage serves you. Is it freeing you or do you feel that your anger and bitterness own you? No matter how awful the circumstances, you let the anger and bitterness win if you don’t forgive. You in effect let the other person win who wronged you. Why let anger and bitterness and the other person win? You owe it to yourself and those who love you to move on, to live a productive life.
2. Forgiving does not mean condoning.
Just because you forgive someone does not mean you approve or accept their behavior. Nor does it mean that where appropriate there shouldn’t be legal consequences. People who cause injustice should be held accountable. Forgiveness and condoning bad behavior are two different concepts.
3. Forgiveness takes time.
It is a matter of the will. And it is not easy. You choose to forgive not because you feel like it, but because you are worth it. For your own sanity and for those who love you and care for you, you just need to do it. One way that can be helpful is to try to understand what motivated the other person to do what they did. For instance, it is often the case that those who abuse were often abused themselves. That does not make abuse right. But trying to understand what led to someone abusing others can help you process the emotions roiling around inside you. It might even give us some level of compassion for someone who was abused themselves. Again, this is not about condoning, but about finding ways for you to be able to move on.
4. Channel your pain in a more productive way.
For instance, for those who may have been abused or betrayed, trying to comfort others who have been abused and betrayed can actually help you. When you focus on being there for others, with caring for others who are in pain, it takes your focus off your own pain. You are thinking of others not yourself. That act of thinking of others while not being consumed by your own pain can actually be helpful even healing.
5. Get help.
Sometimes anger and bitterness can be so deep rooted that counseling or therapy can be helpful. Seeking counseling is not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of strength. It is a sign that you are willing to deal with your pain, move on and lead a productive life.
6. Modeling forgiveness helps others.
By showing others that you can forgive what many may see as unforgivable, you show them the way. You model for them what it means to let go of what is holding you back and not serving you, and to be able to move on and lead a productive life. You show them that you refuse to let anger and bitterness win.
7. Forgive yourself.
Sometimes forgiving yourself can be the highest mountain to climb. Sometimes we are the people who may have done what others may think is unforgivable. Sometimes we may have done things we think are unforgiveable, unwise decisions and actions that have hampered our lives – from struggling with addiction to poor professional choices from which we have yet to fully recover. If others should be forgiven, then perhaps we should forgive ourselves. This does not mean we shouldn’t try to make amends for what we have done. It doesn’t mean there’s not work ahead of us because of the consequences of our behavior. Sometimes part of the atoning work for the mistakes we have made can come through encouraging others to not make the same mistakes that we did. To help reduce the incidence of what we did. Using our mistakes and failures to help others can be part of the healing process for us. It can also lead us to pursue a vision that leads to our own life of significance.
Forgiveness of others or of yourself is not easy. But to live a productive life, a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, it is vital. You are worth it! Do not let anger and bitterness win! You are not defined by the worst thing that happened to you, or even by your worst mistake or failure. We are defined by our choices and how we choose to deal with adversity. Offer forgiveness to others and offer forgiveness to yourself. That is part of what it means to live a life of peace and grace, and indeed a life of joy.
Reflection
What is it that you need to forgive, be it in others or in yourself?
How will forgiving enable you to move on?
What one step will you choose to take today to get out of the prison of anger and bitterness?
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
How do you find purpose in your life and work that allows you to create a legacy that stretches beyond the bottom line of balance sheets and the showy flash of corporate perks? Kevin Edwards, host of the Real Leaders podcast, has discovered through hundreds of interviews with high-powered high achievers – interviews that date back to college – that one of the greatest crucibles most face is settling for success and not pursuing significance. The antidote? Finding a calling that allows you to do good for others even as you do well for yourself.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Kevin E:
Work, no matter what you do does give you a purpose. So when you think about where I was at that time, interviewing all these social entrepreneurs, hearing their stories of these Crucible moments, like, “I was 40 years down the line and my kids and wife left me because I was so focused on growth. We shouldn’t be doing this.”
Kevin E:
So you hear these stories and you think about that inception point about when people are actually going to start their work. And we have these career fairs where people come in, they flash all these shiny objects at you, “Come work for my company, we’ve got beer on Friday,” or “Come work for my company, we’ve got this cool office.” It’s not the way to go at all. I think we’ve got a big problem here on our hands, I’m glad that we’re talking about today.
Gary S:
We are indeed talking about it this week, about how to find purpose in your life and work, that allows you to create a legacy that stretches beyond the bottom line of balance sheets and the showy flash of corporate perks. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communication’s director for Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
Warwick’s guest for this episode is Kevin Edwards, host of The Real Leaders podcast, who has discovered through hundreds of interviews with high-powered high achievers, interviews that date back to college, that one of the greatest crucibles most face is settling for success and not pursuing significance. What’s the antidote? Finding a calling that allows you to do good for others, even as you do well for yourself.
Warwick F:
Well, Kevin, it’s wonderful to have you here on the podcast. I love being on your podcast, Real Leaders. You’re so good at being a podcast host, the depth of questions that you asked, as I was mentioning off-air, the clip that you had of me, maybe one, if not the best, clip we’ve ever had. So thank you for coming on the podcast.
Gary S:
And I’m the guy who picks the clips for the episode. So thanks for that, Kevin.
Kevin E:
I am glad I could one up you.
Warwick F:
There you go. Exactly. Yeah. Kevin, you set the bar high. So, no pressure.
Gary S:
Yes.
Warwick F:
Well, yeah. And just, the whole concept of Real Leaders… I’m just looking at what’s on your website and I love what you have here. Real Leaders is dedicated to elevating and accelerating the global impact movement in order to inspire wise solutions to the issues that matter most. That whole concept of what it takes to be a real leader is more than just success as we talked about in our last conversation.
Warwick F:
But before we get to Real Leaders and what you do now, tell us a bit about Kevin Edwards, where you grew up, the background that led you to really get involved in podcasting and Real Leaders… connect the dots for us about your background and how you got to where you are now.
Kevin E:
Yeah. Thanks Warwick. And yeah, Gary. I’ll go in the same point because I get those guests that come on a show that always give me those long bios.
Gary S:
I know.
Kevin E:
And really when I was starting out, it was just so awkward, just reading these bios, just touting them like, “How about they just tell me who they are.” That’s why I just want to give you something short and sweet. And I am the host of Real Leaders podcast, where leaders keep it real, of course. But I started out really as an intern for Real Leaders. There at the time I think had four employees, so fairly small company, small businesses, I love small businesses.
Kevin E:
The founder came to me and he said, “Hey, would you mind writing some stories on some social entrepreneurs?” I said, “What are social entrepreneurs?” I had no idea what they were, I was into entrepreneurship at the time, I had my own pressure washing business, going to local neighbors and asking them if I could pressure wash their deck or drive way for a couple of bucks in the summer.
Kevin E:
Yeah. This internship opportunity came about and I said, “Well, Mark, that’s great.” I can certainly write some stories. I’m not really that good of a writer, but for young Real Leaders, not that many people our age are reading magazines nowadays. This is the time when Facebook just rolled out their videos. So I had one of my best friends on campus, I went to the University of Arizona, who was the philanthropic video editor, would do all those fun, cool little videos. And he was the best, I mean, he had the whole campus swag going on, everyone was rocking his shirts, everyone wanted to be in part of their videos.
Kevin E:
So I said, “Hey, how about we make business cool? How about I go out and interview some of these social entrepreneurs, and really just get to understand and learn what they do?” So I just went up the West Coast with him in his car after sophomore year. And no budget whatsoever, we just told Mark, “Hey, just give us a shot.” So we rent some basic equipment on Amazon, I’m sure we’re all trying to figure out microphones, I’ve got a nice setup here now, but it wasn’t this way before.
Kevin E:
It was a couple of lapel mics that worked one every 10 times and he had a camera… and keep in mind I’m 6’3, and we’re doing these walking interviews. So my buddy, Tucker, he’s holding this camera up here, he’s about 5’9. So, after we thought, we were biting off more than we could chew, we’re doing about 10 interviews a day with these social entrepreneurs, 30 minutes each. So, by the end of the summer, Tucker had some ripped shoulders there. But, yeah.
Gary S:
And you told me when we talked in advance of this interview, that while you were on that road trip, you stayed at some five star accommodations. I think you indicated you slept where?
Kevin E:
So, first stop was actually in San Diego, and we had a good time there. And then we went up to San Francisco from San Diego, because Tucson is about five and a half hours away from San Diego. San Diego to San Francisco is another eight hours. And we stop at his friend’s place from high school, played on the baseball team there. And San Francisco, it’s my really first time in the city.
Kevin E:
So, we’re in these bay window apartments right near USF, and we’re on the lower level of that apartment. And I remember asking this guys like, “How much are you paying them?” And he’s like, “I’m paying $2,100 for this little lower level.” So I’m like, “Oh great.” He set this air mattress for us in the living room floor. How nice of him. And then there’s another mattress to the side. Oh great.
Kevin E:
So we’ve had a long road trip, we’re rehearsing, trying to do our elevator pitch, “Real Leaders, we reach 30,000 CEOs at 135 countries, who just had control of $6 trillion to spend.” Yeah. And we’re pretty tired. And I say, “Hey, Tuck, I need to sleep.” So I go into this bed, he goes into the air mattress, get all snuggled in and his roommate is studying for his test. And I got a text on my phone, he says, “Hey Kev, you’re in Cooper’s bed. I paid him $2,100, just sleep on a mattress in the living room floor.”
Kevin E:
So I got to move back over to the air mattress, which is of course halfway filled up and has a hole in it. So, slept on the floor that night and had to do 10 interviews the next day. But that’s living situations that we were in, and that’s the art of learning as you go. And so we did those 10 interviews at Impact Hub in San Francisco, went up the West Coast to Portland, Oregon, we went to Bend, Oregon, we went to Seattle Washington. We went to Vancouver, Washington, we went to the US Virgin Islands.
Kevin E:
And through that summer, we did about 30, 35 interviews with social entrepreneurs, CEOs, and any sustainable business that we get our hands on. And it really taught us a lot.
Warwick F:
So when you say social entrepreneur, what is a social entrepreneur?
Kevin E:
Yeah. Social entrepreneur to me is someone who’s intentionally trying to take on a social or environmental problem. And as they grow, as they scale, they’re able to solve that problem even further. I’ll give you an example. Example to me is someone who’s come on our show called Emma Rose Cohen. And she had a passion. She went to University of Santa Barbara, school on the coast.
Kevin E:
So there’s a ton of plastic everywhere, and said, “Why is this? Here I am trying to get this great education and we’re just polluting, throwing bottles everywhere. And it’s really getting into the waste streams. And we’ve all seen the image of the turtle and its nose.” And she said, “I want to end this problem,” and does some research, and the problem ends up being single use plastic. Plastic you use after one time, virgin plastic made from oils.
Kevin E:
So she goes out, she does this viral video, and this video, she throws onto a crowdfunding site, raises $1.8 million and is able to now diversify her product line for for-profit company, making the final product. These could be utensils, wipes, anything that you use one time to eliminate that consumer behavior of throwing away plastic into waste streams that affect our animals, our eco-systems, all of the above. So that’s a social entrepreneur, someone who’s solving also a business problem in a socially constructive way.
Warwick F:
Wow. So you and your buddy showed a lot of entrepreneurial spirit in college, you had this idea. And so, was this with Real Leaders? What was then the genesis of it, about doing interviews with social entrepreneurs? Is that partly how it happened?
Kevin E:
Yeah. Real Leaders at the time, the tagline was, Better Leaders For a Better World. And we focus a lot on diversity and inclusion. And so, hats off to our founder and our leadership team for letting us do this one. But we created a good product. I mean, it brought them viewership that they’d never had before online at the time. So-
Warwick F:
And these were video interviews that you were doing, so they didn’t have that, so you pitched the idea to them. And I mean, that took a lot of courage at that age, because they were looking for articles that sounds like… but you pitched them an idea that might work better with younger folks today. I mean, where do you find that courage and get up and go, spirit to do all of that? Because a lot of folks in college would not be thinking that, well, not even try.
Warwick F:
And then you go to get these interviews with folks, which is not always easy, you’re in college. How do all that happen? I mean, where do you get the get up and go, the courage to do all that?
Kevin E:
Yeah. I mean, it’s a good question. There’s no courage without fear. And so, I had a lot of fear just starting out, here I am, I don’t know a lick about business, but I just wanted to go out there and interview people. I had had a few prior experiences with interviewing people, I was that anchor of our high school news channel. So, I had some experience, but really it was just throwing ourselves out there and seeing what happens.
Kevin E:
And I think a lot of the leaders are those people as well. And I think they recognize people that are different, people that are trying to put themselves in an uncomfortable position and they recognize that. And so everyone that I was able to interview, obviously my terminology, my questions were probably horrible at the time, I probably thought they were good, but it may have not made any sense, but they were willing to work with me, and give me that time.
Kevin E:
So, that’s something that I really appreciated. And as you do more repetitions, that I’m sure you both have found, you get to be more comfortable, you learn little things along the way that you can’t research, things that just come up through continuous repetition. So, I’ve adopted that mentality in anything I do now, just knowing things are going to take a long time, and that’s something that school and anything else I don’t think could really teach us.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I mean, I think you’re answering this, but maybe to other folks in college or young people starting out, one of the lessons you learned from that epic road trip up the West Coast and pitching an idea which… I mean, I had pitched one idea to you, but you pitched it back to him in a slightly different vein, they weren’t looking for the video series but you offered it to them. So, what are the lessons you would offer for college folks or young people that you learned from that whole experience.?
Kevin E:
Yeah. Business owners are more willing to give you their time versus their money. And so, I think it was a pretty easy sell for us to say, “Hey, give us 30 minutes of your time, and we’re going to talk about your career, career path, career advice for young social entrepreneurs, break these videos down, the one to three minutes and bring these success stories alive to inspire purposeful careers. Do you have a moment?” A lot of them did.
Kevin E:
And so, relentless emails, obviously we got rejected 100 times, but people are very willing, and especially people in the impact space, they need that recognition right now. So I think, we definitely fill the gap for them in terms of getting them some marketing material out there.
Warwick F:
So that was a wise strategy there that business owners is one thing but folks that want to have impact environmentally and socially, they want to get their environment out there. Here’s a couple of young guys, and you weren’t just talking about a whole long phone video, you’re talking of video clips, you’re probably a variety of different things that you could package it. So, that was pretty enterprising. So, as you go, maybe walk back and you mentioned… I’ve heard you grew up in the Portland area. Was there something in your background, parents or something that gave you this entrepreneurial courageous spirit? I mean, where does that sense of adventure come from?
Kevin E:
Well, my mother is the president of Real Leaders.
Warwick F:
Oh, okay.
Kevin E:
So, that’s how I was able to get that opportunity, which is very fortunate. And that’s the thing though, Warwick you work in a family business.
Warwick F:
Yeah. I’m pretty aware. Yeah.
Kevin E:
You don’t want to work for your mother. So, yeah. In terms of my background, I think for entrepreneurship, it really just started out with pressure washing and staining decks, doing something that was different. I mean, I was always very active, I was in student government in high school, I ran on community task force that we started, I was pitching in front of a court to get us more money for our non-profit at the time. And I was super young.
Kevin E:
So my parents always made me uncomfortable, always threw me into the fire. And I think my dad’s favorite quote is to make my life miserable, that’s his number one job. So, I always grew up in an uncomfortable setting and always had to persevere over a lot of different challenges, whether it was on the sports team, whether it was in family life, like anybody does, I would assume so.
Kevin E:
Yeah. But also maybe environmentally, yeah. Growing up in Oregon, you’re definitely… I mean, I didn’t realize I grew up in a forest until I moved to Tucson, Arizona. And yeah, I mean, definitely being a part of the environment, being close to Mount Hood, close to the beach, having forests to run around in, and I think definitely played a role in that as well.
Gary S:
As you tell that story. One of the things that leaps out to me, the very first thing you said to me when we did a call, a month or so ago now, first thing I wrote down on top of my paper, “Everyone has their own crucible.” Is what you said. And it sounds like what you were just describing. You had your own experiences, and the people that you talk to had their own crucible experiences. I mean, it’s as Warwick says, if you haven’t had one, check your watch, because in 15 minutes you might have one. But that’s a pretty profound statement for this show to say everyone has their own crucible.
Kevin E:
Yeah. I would agree on that. I mean, what Warwick is saying is completely true, and that’s really the crux of what has kept me going. Interviewing successful social entrepreneurs, CEOs, and you hear these stories about, “I didn’t have any meaning in my life. My kids didn’t recognize me anymore, I had this spear in the heart moment, where I was so focused on growth, and I just lost who I was.”
Kevin E:
You don’t hear these things all the time, and that’s why I think is so great about your show. And Crucible… I told Warwick on the show, it couldn’t be a better word, severe trials that lead the creation of something new. All of these people have had this career realization and needed to do something more meaningful that aligns with their intention. And so that’s what I’m trying to get out with our content, with our show and just out of these interviews as well. But I don’t think we do as good of a job as Crucible.
Warwick F:
No, you guys do awesome. Just one more beat on the background. I always love the backstory, it sounds like either or both of your parents, must’ve had some entrepreneurial spirit. I mean, your mom founding Real Leaders must have had something. But it also sounds like… I mean, I grew up in a very affluent background and sometimes people who have had some degree of success, they can cushion their children from… put them in little cotton balls, what have you.
Warwick F:
And it sounds like you were challenged, whether it’s athletically or what have you, I know we don’t get into all the details, but it sounds like there was somethings maybe they did right, in the sense of just challenging you and not just making… you know what I mean? They add some-
Kevin E:
Yeah. And again, everyone has their own crucible, and everyone is different. So, my mother did not found Real Leaders, she is now the president. She is married to the founder. Mark said… okay, it came up. But when I was growing up in high school, they weren’t together at the time, my mom actually didn’t have a job, she lost it during the economic recession. My parents are divorced.
Kevin E:
And I also had a lot of pain growing up with my brother, not going over to my father’s house growing up. So, I think it was really, like you said, Warwick in the show, that you got a reputation to hold, you didn’t want to go out, you want to be exposed. So that was who I felt had those expectations on me, a lot of pressure because of my older brother’s habits and reputation within the community.
Kevin E:
So, it was a pretty difficult upbringing, I didn’t really notice it as much at the time, as you grow up, you realize things aren’t okay. But I think that was definitely a crux for what made me go out there and try to be involved and show our community that, “Hey, look, the Edwards family can really contribute and be a big staple in this community as well.” To the teachers, to the faculty, to anyone that may be had heard different and we can make a change.
Kevin E:
And so, I don’t like to speak too much about my brother, because I know he’s going through a hard time right now, and he’s doing incredible things in terms of his recovery. So, but at that point in time, as we all know, family members that are struggling with addiction, it was very difficult to hold the family together and put on this face to friends and family members and coaches.
Warwick F:
We all have challenges in life, but for you, with your crucible experiences, it motivated you to go in a positive direction to contribute, to capture people’s stories of people doing good. I mean, again, we don’t need to talk more about background, but it sounds like all those experiences helped form your values and who you are and what motivates you. Is that a fair statement? Would you say?
Kevin E:
Yeah. I would think so. Yeah.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So let’s talk about, with Real Leaders and what you do. I think you’ve talked a bit about this, but what are you passionate about? What is who you say, this is my calling, this is Kevin Edwards’ calling. Because it sounds like… some people don’t know, but I’m guessing you’re one of these people that actually know, you have a sense of mission and calling in terms of what you do, would you say?
Kevin E:
Yeah. My intention is definitely to have the most meaningful conversations that transform lives. Gary, I told you I got one lines for a lot of different things, that’s it? And it actually comes from a lot of trying… I was trying to do a lot of why workshops, and really peel back those layers of what my north star may be. And it wasn’t until I read somewhere that maybe I should reach out to other people, to affirm actually who I am.
Kevin E:
So I wrote down my five statements, what makes me unique? What makes me unique? This, this, this and that. And I got a lot of funny things that come back, “Oh, it’s that deformity in your chest that sticks out, that’s what makes you unique.” “Oh, it’s your ability to have these conversations with people.” “Oh, it’s the trust that you’ve installed within our family and that you reach out to them.”
Kevin E:
So, all these things came together and I really realized that, at the core, it’s just that I like to have actual, meaningful conversations with people that will hopefully transform their lives. That’s what I find interesting. And I realized that because I eliminate everything else, I don’t watch a lot of Netflix, I don’t watch a lot of shows, I don’t go out and really do anything. I’m very focused. And I write down on my whiteboard every single week, that intention and how is that going to manifest in three different aspects of my life, in my work, in my family and with my friends.
Warwick F:
Wow. Meaningful conversations that transform lives. So it’s hard for me to think of something better than that. I mean, at a relatively young age to have your north star locked in. We spoke on your podcast that, is nothing wrong when you’re in your 50s or older, trying to figure out is life all about success? Is it about significance? And suddenly you’re living… and we define a life significance is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.
Warwick F:
Clearly, that’s what you do. I don’t mean to be flippant but you’ve got that box checked. I mean, what could be more of a life significance than having meaningful conversation to transform lives? So at a relatively young age, you’re already leading a life of significance. It can take some people in their 50s, 60s, it’s never too late. But as I often say, you don’t want to be on your death bed saying, “I think now’s a good time to turn the direction of my life.” Sooner is better.
Kevin E:
Absolutely. And I think for some people we tend to overthink things and we tend to try to be somebody that we’re not. Look, I mean, I did these interviews because I didn’t think I’d have a career in interviewing. I just didn’t really realize it was something that I naturally liked to do. And that just came very natural to me, and I really feels like I’m in that flow state when I’m doing them.
Kevin E:
And so, sometimes when we’re trying to think about our company, we’re trying to think about our why statements, it’s like being in the inside of that beer bottle. You’re in the inside, it’s nice inside, but on the outside is where the label is, and that’s why you need people to talk to, to tell you, “Hey, this is what makes you unique. This is how I see you.” And then where the overlay is I believe is where you truly can be living.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And by being so clear, that helps you ask great questions. I mean, a lot of business leaders, as I’ve mentioned, they don’t really think their action man, action women, they’re running a mile a minute, and it’s not so much they’re trying to be bad people, it’s so often, they’re not really in touch with their values, their beliefs, whatever that is, what they feel their calling is.
Warwick F:
I’ve done a fair amount of executive coaching in the past, and I’ll often ask this question that sounds flippant, but it’s not meant to be. I’ll say, “So tell me about your values and beliefs.” And, I mean, very few leaders will say, “Oh, I don’t have any.” I mean, you don’t get to be a leader without some foundations somewhere. And I’ll say, “Sir, to what degree do you feel like you’re living your values and your beliefs in your professional and personal life.”
Warwick F:
And sometimes you’ll hear, “You know what, there’s a bit of a disconnect to be honest. I don’t do enough reflection, I’m just too busy making decisions.” And then I’ll ask with a straight face, because as a coach, you’re non judgmental and I certainly try to be. So I say, “What would you like to do? Would you like to change your values and beliefs to better align with what you’re doing corporately and personally? Or would you like to change your personal and professional life to be in harmony with your values and beliefs?”
Warwick F:
And it’s pretty clear to me. I mean, most people, what are they going to say? “No, let me change my values and beliefs. Well, most sane people aren’t going to say that, but you have to ask that. And then, so I guess the point of the story is, using your words, by having meaningful conversations that help transform lives, just by asking that one question, what are your values and beliefs? To what degree do you think you’re living it?
Warwick F:
I’m just asking questions, I’m not judging them, they’re judging or assessing themselves. And so, using different language I feel like by asking questions, I’m sure what matters to you? What’s the goal of your organization? How do you feel that changes the world? Do you have any problems? Talk about your team. I mean, all the questions that I’m sure you would ask, that helps them to think and reflect. It helps your guests think, “We’re doing well, but could we do better? Not just in terms of profit, but in terms of our mission.” Does that make sense?
Warwick F:
Because that’s your way of thinking, you’re going to be asking questions that do transform lives. Good questions, help transform lives. Because I know long-winded response, but does that make sense in terms of what you do?
Kevin E:
Yeah. Absolutely. And really started out with those social entrepreneurs. So what’s actually been difficult for me is to go into this leadership realm maybe where you guys are and have these conversations about leadership, what are your values? How do you go in? Whereas I started out with, what’s your intention? What social or environmental problem are you trying to solve? How do you lead? How does that affect your employees? All of these different things.
Kevin E:
But I think your position is very unique, you’re almost like a therapist in some way. And I know from my podcasts, you never know who’s going to show up on the opposite side of that screen or next to you, they could be having a bad day. You could do all the research you want in them, but until they’re in front of you, you really don’t know who’s going to show up. So, I think what you do is a very special job and it definitely takes a special person to relate to them.
Gary S:
That’s one of the reasons why we say we try to go a certain amount of time, 45 minutes, but we let content not the clock dictate, because it’s just what you said, Kevin, you don’t know, not only who’s on the other side of the microphone, but you don’t know what their stories are going to be. One of the things that we try to do and you probably saw it on the form that we have all guests fill out, is we don’t want to know too much information, because to know everything… we’ve all been on podcasts where they ask you, here’s the 10 questions that I’m going to ask you, and it’s like, “Okay,” there’s no spontaneity there.
Gary S:
And with too much preparation, can come a degradation I think of the spontaneity that leads to those moments that you’re talking about. Those revelations… all of us have asked questions for a living, the best place to be is when someone says, “I haven’t heard that question before.” When I was a reporter, I once interviewed Dick Clark, and I asked Dick Clark, who on American bandstand for 40 years, it’s got a great beat and you can dance to it. That was his gig.
Gary S:
I asked him if he danced, and he said to me, “No one’s ever asked me that question.” I was flying for three weeks after that, the idea of being able to ask someone a question where you’re really paying attention, that’s the thing that makes what you’re doing, when you say that your focus is to ask questions that help change people’s lives. That’s part of the payoff, is listening and then responding in a way that offers a question that to your word, Kevin, is a bit of therapy sometimes.
Kevin E:
Definitely. Yeah, I’d agree. I think the best interviewers are the best listeners, no doubt. I also find myself trying to avoid the leadership. I like to just know who the people are. Are they funny? How do they react to certain questions? Are they super tight in business like this? They only talk in business terminology. So there’s all different types of people that come on the show.
Kevin E:
And yeah, I will say the interviews that I do prepare more for are the ones that are more formal and I don’t like as often, they’re not as free flowing. So yeah, it’s a tough balance, but again, doing so many interviews on the cuff with no preparation at conferences, just on the road with no preparation, being young, you have to get over that fear real early on and just trust yourself in those interviews. And I think that’s part of the reason why I’ve been able to stick with it.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. And you said something earlier that I’m curious about. You started off doing social entrepreneurs and then this Real Leaders you also interview just regular business owners and executives. Talk about that difference, because I would imagine with the social entrepreneur, as you’re implying, you going to be cause-inspired person, you don’t become a social entrepreneur without this burning desire to make a difference in the world.
Warwick F:
I mean, you have to have that otherwise why would you do this? So, what differences have you found in interviewing regular leaders, for want of a better word versus social leaders or social entrepreneurs?
Kevin E:
Right. What is a real leader? We ask that question at the end of every show, right?
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Kevin E:
There’s not one definition, there’s not one right answer. So, I think the overlay between where we are is that crucible moment, is that career transition, because all the social entrepreneurs we’ve had on, had traditional careers, worked for big four, went to really good schools and had that again, that spear in the chest moment. So, that’s where we started.
Kevin E:
I’m always trying to push myself and push those boundaries to say, “Hey, let’s get someone on Paul Stamets, a mycologist.” I interviewed this… I don’t know if you know who this is, Akon, he’s an artist, he’s a big time performer.
Gary S:
Yeah.
Kevin E:
Yeah. I interviewed him a couple of times, let’s stretch my experience out to those levels. Doctors, those are the hardest. To speak on their level is very difficult. Gone to the opiod epidemic. I’ve covered a lot of different people. So I always try and stretch myself. The process is very much the same, but with those interviews, you just got to listen a little bit harder.
Warwick F:
So when you think of your ideal, Real Leader guest, what is it you’re looking for in a guest?
Kevin E:
I’m not looking for anything. And I hate… I know that sounds cliche like, “Oh, he doesn’t really mean that.” No, I used to look for something. I used to look for that person that I could really see in myself, but the more people you have on the show, the more you realize just how different everybody is, their backgrounds, where they come from, how they see the world, and the impact economy. The CEOs are not your stereotypical CEOs, they’re really not.
Kevin E:
They’re not timestamped… I mean, they are timestamped, but they’re not pushy, they’re very genuine people. If you went to an Impact, and I’d invite you both to our Impact Awards, if you go to this awards conference, you’ll see people in plaid shirts with patagonia vests on, the type of quirky people who are all multi-millionaires and CEOs, but just have an appreciation for the outdoors, for people, for what they’re actually doing.
Kevin E:
And I’ll never forget one of my first… not one of my first interviews, but one of my first years of doing it, I asked this guy a question, waste farmers, “What do you do?” And he was taken back by that actually, almost offended. He was like, “That question, what do you do? It’s not a good question.” We tend to, as society really break things down into one sentence or one thing about what we do, who we are, we put labels on things. That’s not what we do.
Kevin E:
So, had a long with an answer for why they’re doing what they’re doing. And I’ll tell you, that was the last time I ever asked somebody. What do you do? That’s for sure.
Warwick F:
I’m tempted. Did you ask him, so what would have been a better question or? I’m curious to know, what is it? Who are you? Or what do you value? I wonder what his ideal question would be.
Kevin E:
Just tell me how you got into this.
Warwick F:
Okay.
Kevin E:
How are you doing what you’re doing? This waste farmers, you’re collecting the soil to regenerate the soil. Why is that important? Where’s the money in this? And then he started to peel back what he actually does, but I think sometimes as interviewers, we don’t do a good enough job of asking the right questions. We ask a lot of cliche questions. I’m a culprit of it, we all are. And it’s really just trying to dig a little bit deeper and listen to them a little bit harder, which again, I think you hit the nail on the head earlier on.
Warwick F:
Yeah. It’s interesting. So it sounds like, you’re not just about interviewing your average corporate leader, Real Leaders and I love that tagline at the end, keep it real. I’m assuming you want to know the real person, what makes them tick, their values, their passions, what drove them to do what they do. You don’t want just to hear a spreadsheet, you want to hear who is the person? Is that a fair assessment of what you’re trying to achieve?
Kevin E:
Absolutely. And I think, I don’t personally have a definition for what a real leader is. I think it’s someone that can create these meaningful connections, and if enough people are connected, then inherently you can have a movement. But what is real is what is imperfect to me. And I’ve really realized that, here we are looking at all of us, we’re wearing blazers, why are we wearing blazers? We’re in our home.
Gary S:
I at least have a t-shirt on.
Kevin E:
So, what is imperfect? And I think in Crucible Leadership, you have to lower your guard, you have to be vulnerable, you have to be yourself. And in today’s day and age, to be that next generational leader, you’ve really got to connect with people in a personal way, because everyone’s on their phones, everyone knows who you are, especially people and millennials, they really want those connections with those leaders and want you to recognize them as well as a human being.
Gary S:
And one of the things that we didn’t realize, or that we were worried about when Warwick started the show, was okay, people don’t talk about failure, much. That was our organizing construct. And then we sat down and said, “Where are we going to find guests? If people don’t talk about failure much.” And Warwick is unique because he talks about his failure and setback, with the takeover bid that didn’t work, “How are we going to find guests who here’s the beautiful thing that we found?”
Gary S:
It’s not been easy to find guests, but it’s been not nearly as hard as it was. And the thing that we discovered that’s so great about it, is that regardless of what the circumstances of the crucible may be, as I’ve said, not many people have lost 150 year old media company at a price of 2.25 billion with a B, which is 4.7 billion in today’s money, but we don’t go there often.
Gary S:
Not many people have done that circumstantially, but emotionally, those crucibles feel the same way. And that’s where the realness… when I think of Real Leaders, that’s one of the things we’ve discovered in doing this show, is that it takes a real leader to come on this show and talk about their most painful setback and how they bounced back from that and how they’re living life now with their eye on their legacy and a life of significance.
Warwick F:
It is amazing. We’ve interviewed a very diverse group, diverse in terms of gender, background, race, as well as type of crucibles, everything from abuse to business failure, marriage, physical injury, Parkinson’s, Navy seal who is paralyzed at a training accident, every crucible you can think of. And they all have something in common, they refuse to lie down and just while away the next 30, 40, 50 years of their life, they often lean into their crucible.
Warwick F:
Like the Navy seal I mentioned, I think I mentioned on your podcast, who lives in San Diego, or I think you mentioned, ended up becoming exec director of this clinic for vets that has some of the top technology anywhere in the country. Well, he’s using his pain again it’s an oft used phrase for a purpose. So, all of these folks we’ve interviewed, there’s commonality amongst all of them. I mean, a lot of the time I’ll say, “Well, almost apologize because what I went through financially was devastating and my sense of self and self-esteem was devastating, but I feel like… well, I wasn’t physically abused, I didn’t become a paraplegic, almost, well, my crucible is not nearly at the level that you went through.”
Warwick F:
And all these people when I say that, will say, “Your worst experience is your worst experience.” They don’t judge you, it’s not like a competition who has had the worst life. They don’t judge you, all these people. And we’ve interviewed 50 plus, so there’s some commonality in this and I feel it’s fascinating. And obviously your podcast is called Real Leaders, but yeah, I sense some of what you do is similar, I think you’ve mentioned off-air, about trying to align people’s skills with their values, helping people before they get stuck.
Warwick F:
I mean, some of the language and thoughts you have, there’s some similarities, don’t you think in terms of what your heart is for the leaders you talk with?
Kevin E:
Yeah. Plenty. And I’m actually developing a new course right now called Impact RX, and the impact prescriptions for… I guess our dream customer is 28 to 36 year olds who are what we say are stuck in career paralysis. So the impact prescription is a cure for that paralysis and breaking down that impact in the six different things, intention, model, profitability, accountability, customers’ transformation, impact as a course, a lesson for people that really feel unstuck, but also Warwick.
Kevin E:
There’s so many crossovers, as we found out today. But another one I think is this, success versus significance. But for us it’s short-term versus long-term. If you’re someone who wants to have a significant life, you’re not thinking about the short term right here now, you’re thinking about the longterm. So for these impact organizations, they’re thinking seven generations down the line, will our kids be able to live in this planet?
Kevin E:
You know what I’m saying? When the price of oil increases and distribution costs go up, what’s that going to do for our economy? Let’s focus on local now. So there’s a lot of world problems that I’ve been exposed to through these interviews, poverty, no hunger to health and wellbeing, the SEGs, water shortage, again, the opioid crisis, mycelium decline with the roots of fungi. All of these different things.
Kevin E:
These leaders are taking a stance, they’ve found their purpose, they’ve aligned it with this intention, and they’re thinking in the long-term and ways to solve these problems. That’s why I find it so fascinating.
Warwick F:
What I find encouraging is, some folks talk about, well first part of my life, I’m going to be successful, then I’ll have enough money, maybe I’ll have enough money to start a nonprofit or join a few nonprofit boards. I think that I can do that in my 50s or so, but in the meantime, I’ll work my way up to be partner or whatever it is.
Warwick F:
And I don’t think it’s an either or, and I try not to be judgmental, but I have a different perspective. I think all of life should be significant from grade school or frankly your earliest memory on. You can have a life of significance in elementary school, you don’t have to wait until you’re 40, 50, 60, and you’ll have to make choices. It doesn’t mean to say that you leap off the partner track at your law firm or your business.
Warwick F:
But maybe just to pick law for an example, maybe you’re a lawyer, and maybe I’d like to get into environmental law or a nonprofit law. Well, maybe you might not make as much money as you would in corporate or tax. Maybe I used part of this example on your podcast, but… and it’s not a right or wrong decision, just be intentional. Maybe it’s part of what you’re… how does it align with your values? If you feel like, no, I honestly feel like I can make a big impact in the corporate area by meeting with some of these CEOs and having a discussion and meaningful discussions that impact others, you can make a case for that, but do it because you’re being intentional.
Warwick F:
And if you say, “Look, I’m going to make a lot less money being a non-profit pro bono lawyer for folks that can’t afford it,” so long as that’s your decision, that’s not a wrong decision, if that’s what you want to do, maybe your parents might not understand, maybe your friends might have a bit of doubt what you want to do. So-
Kevin E:
No Warwick, I want to hit on this point, I want to keep going on this point, because what I’ve found is, everyone says, “Well, do what you love, do what you love,” I don’t really like that quote as much, but I will say work no matter what you do does give you a purpose.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Kevin E:
So when you think about where I was at that time, interviewing all these social entrepreneurs, hearing their stories of these crucible moments, like, “I was 40 years down the line and my kids and wife left me, because I was so focused on growth.” We shouldn’t be doing this. So you hear these stories and you think about that inception point about when people are actually going to start their work.
Kevin E:
And we have these career fairs where people come in, they flash all these shiny objects at you, come work for my company, we’ve got beer on Friday or come work for my company, we’ve got this cool office. It’s not the way to go at all. So I think we’ve got a big problem here on our hands and I’m glad that we’re talking about today.
Warwick F:
I’m glad that with your new course and other things that, that’s on your heart, because as we’ve said before, you don’t want to be on the death bed going, “Boy, I blew it, my kids don’t know me, that I’ve had all these issues in their life.” And, you don’t get that life back. Yeah, I mean, I’ve said a lot of things I’ve done wrong, but because I grew up in such a large wealthy family in media business and was around ambassadors, prime ministers, even folks from Hollywood, my mother was incredible at throwing parties, even Hollywood folks would come out and say, “Boy, Lady Mary Fairfax throws parties on a level that we’re not used to, even in Hollywood.”
Warwick F:
So, she had not so much because of the money, but she had a sense of style, and she was actually on the top 10 best dressed women in the world list way back in the day. So, she was quite something. So I got to meet all these folks and I just saw… lot of them just had empty lives and their kids, and I never wanted to be that person, so I was fortunate I could spend time with my kids who are now all in their 20s.
Warwick F:
And what’s interesting and something for everybody to think about on birthdays or what have you, we write cards, we say what we most value about the person whose birthday is, it’s just a tradition we’ve done for many years. And my boys who are the more athletic ones in my family, every single time, they’ll say, “Well, dad, you’re always there at our soccer game at tennis game, you were there. For many, many years, they’ve said that, I can’t tell you how much that means to me.
Warwick F:
So all that’s to say, I mean my whole brand, if you will is about all the screw ups and the stupid decisions I’ve made, so if anybody wants to know all the dumb things I have done, go to crucibleleadership.com and you’ll hear all the bad, stupid idiotic stuff.
Gary S:
Hey you’re doing my job telling people to go to crucibleleadership.com.
Warwick F:
You don’t want to be that young guy, that young woman with the divorce, with the kids that hate you because you were never there. Oh you’re doing well. But, I don’t know, to me this is a judgemental moment coming up on. If you’re going to get married and have a family, honor that. If you don’t want to spend time with your kids and wife or husband, then don’t get married, don’t have kids. But if you make that social contract, it’s all as to say, as you get the idea, is life’s about choices, is having that whole life where you feel good about what you do, you’re not abandoning.
Warwick F:
I mean, some people even abandon their families for the so-called good cause. I personally don’t believe in that philosophy myself. I think you can do both, you can be successful and significant, you can work on a good cause and have a decent family. So anyway, I guess that’s a bit of a discussion, but does that make sense? I guess, I focus, especially on young people, getting these points, don’t go for the shiny object even if the shiny object is couched in some socially, good goal, is great, but you don’t have to sacrifice your whole, you can do both, you can do good and have a good family.
Kevin E:
Well, guess who’s a big factor in that job decision, as a college student, “Hey mom, dad, I just got this job offer today, what do you think?” Parents are a big influence. And so all the parents listen to this right now, out there. What I went through was difficult, and Gary, this is actually what we talked about before the show, and this was… I had this career with Real Leaders and I took this pay cut to go work for them.
Kevin E:
I got offered a few other different jobs in Chicago, again, the shiny objects, high paying salaries. And I took this job because I knew when I was working at an insurance company the year before, big insurance company, that I’d go home after that work day and focus on Real Leaders on those interviews. And I knew that this is probably what I wanted to do for a long time. And a lot of people don’t have that.
Kevin E:
And so, when I joined and Warwick, I think we’re actually, we’re more similar than you think. When I joined my mother and stepfather’s company, my father did not respect it. And so I was back home in college or from college after I graduated living with him, trying to tell him about the excitement, what I’m telling you guys, and I was just over the head. And here’s a guy that was at my football games every time, was my biggest supporter growing up. And for the first time in my life, when something that I really liked and really wanted to do, there’s zero support, no questions, nothing. And that was very difficult. that was probably my crucible moment.
Kevin E:
Taking a step back and going, “All right, got to make a decision here, got to do what I love or succumb to this pressure with my father and potentially damage the relationships.”
Gary S:
And not pursue the purpose that you felt you were being called to. I mean, you felt your soul come alive as you were doing those interviews.
Kevin E:
Yeah, definitely. And since then, it’s actually pushed me to go harder and harder and further and further. And since then now, he’s come on board, and it’s just in the best thing, and he’s my guy, I go to now to have those conversations that I can’t have with my mother and my stepdad because they are my business partners. So it created this interesting dynamic where we’re now closer over here on this forefront, and I’m closer with my mother and stepfather on this side, because we interact every day about the business. So, it’s this interesting parallel, but it took a lot of time in love and nurturing and it’s still a tough process. Let me tell you,
Warwick F:
I want to just focus on what you just said because listeners will be everywhere from 20s through 60s or beyond, the courage that… and I’m serious about this, the courage that Kevin had, it’s easy, I mean, you’re obviously somebody that’s bright, that is focused in any corporate career, you’re going to get it done, do incredibly well and you go up the ladder, because you’re focused, driven, those are the things that corporate CEOs and vice presidents, that’s what they want when they’re looking for folks to fill the pipeline of the best and brightest and high achievers or whatever else human resources is calling it.
Warwick F:
So you could have done that and been very successful. I have no doubt. But yet you chose to follow the calling in your heart. And to me, the road less traveled you picked from my perspective, the right choice. Why is it right? Because it was true to who you were. And any time you pick a calling or a profession that’s true to who your inner values, your inner calling, this still small voice, whatever you want to call it, deep within you, being true to yourself is always right. That’s always the right call.
Warwick F:
So as you can tell, other young people this, you can save them a lot of misery. And yeah, I mean an ideal world would have supportive parents. And in my case, it wasn’t so much that they were not supportive, is just, as I mentioned on your podcast, it’s growing up in the Royal family, for me not to go into the family business, it would have devastated my father, I would have crushed him, I mean, I couldn’t have done it because… and the thing is having a media or a newspaper in which you’re trying to uplift society, wasn’t like it’s such a bad mission, it just wasn’t my mission.
Warwick F:
But again, I’m not perfect with my own kids, I’m hyper-focused on not telling them what to do, I want them to live into their gifting and calling, but I don’t care what they do, I don’t care what they earn, so long as they’re happy. Now sometimes… I don’t know if I’ve mentioned on the podcast, maybe I have, it will come back to bite you. Faith is important to me and faith is important to all of my kids.
Warwick F:
Well, my daughter is the fearless entrepreneur, if you will, and I don’t quite know where she gets those genes, but I wouldn’t call myself fearless at all. But she said to us one time, “Well, I got this opportunities to work with Samaritan’s Purse, a fantastic faith-based aid organization. Anywhere there’s poverty or turmoil in the world, like in Iraq, when Mosul was being seized, and that whole deal, they were out there giving people food and water outside Mosul with the refugees leaving. I mean, that’s about as dangerous a place on the planet at the time, a number of years ago. So they really out there, I admire what they do.
Warwick F:
So she said, “Well, I’ve been given the opportunity to have an internship in the Congo,” it was a very dangerous place. And then a year or so later, fast forward, South Sudan, again, one of the most poorest nations in the world, and there’s been turmoil forever for a variety of reasons. Well, what are you going to say? No? And she was over 21, so no wouldn’t have helped. Where people will faced those… it’s not like we disagree with her mission, not that it matters, we agree with the mission, how can you say no? I mean, because you’d be a hypocrite.
Warwick F:
She’s doing what she believes in, and the icing on the cake is you happen to believe in it too. You just wish it wasn’t so dangerous. So I don’t know. I mean, it can come back to bite you when you try and live this out, but all in all, it is a good philosophy for parents, and I want them to really hear what Kevin has said is, support your kid’s calling, forget about the numbers and the career, and if they do what they love, it’ll sort itself out.
Warwick F:
So your parents need to hear that, and those in their 20s, they just need to have the courage to, I don’t mean to reject your parents, but just do what you feel you’re called to. Does that make sense?
Kevin E:
Yeah. And the young adults need to listen too, they need to know they cannot reject your parents’ opinions and thoughts.
Warwick F:
Right.
Kevin E:
That’s another thing it took a long time for me to learn and say, “They’re right about a lot of different things.”
Warwick F:
Well, that’s true. I mean, there are some folks, that anybody that’s older than 40 by definition must be wrong. Well, sometimes you can learn from other people’s mistakes, they’re mentoring, how do you do things? In my younger days… I mean, it’s easy when you’re young to get into this, I’m going to share my truth throw in the hand grenades and machine guns, and I’m speaking my truth.
Warwick F:
Well, you can speak your truth, but try and do it a little bit more diplomatically first, you don’t only have to go in there all guns blazing. No. That’s typically a mistake early on that you learn later on. But-
Gary S:
I’m going to show that I listened to my parents when I was younger, that if I had something to say that I thought was relevant to a conversation, to say it, and that is, I believe that the sound we heard was the captain turning on and fastening seatbelt sign, it’s about time to land the plane. Not quite yet. We have a couple more things we need to do. The first thing, Kevin, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let our listeners know how they can find out more about the Real Leaders podcast, about Real Leaders, about you.
Kevin E:
Yeah. Appreciate Gary. Yeah. Real Leader podcast, it’s on every listening platform, Apple, Spotify, YouTube. Just search Real Leaders podcasts, and you’ll find it, it’s a red logo, it’s Real Leader with Kevin Edwards. You can also find more information at real-leaders.com. It’s real-leaders.com. Also, if any of you listening out there, are impact organizations right now, we’ve got an impact awards going on right now, we do a great job of again, bringing those companies that are in the dark into the spotlight, through our publication, through all of our media resources and many of the CEOs come on the show as well.
Kevin E:
So that’s another outlet. And then of course, the course is launching here fully available for everybody online in June.
Gary S:
Awesome. I’ve got one more question and then I’m going to go back to Warwick. But you said something Kevin, in the form that we had you fill out that, and the question is one that we ask everybody, what in your professional estimation are the key principles and tangible action steps that can help people in the midst of a crucible move beyond it. And this is your response, and I’d love you to unpack it a little bit, because I think to Warwick’s point, we try to offer hope to people here. And I think what you say here offers a lot of-
Kevin E:
Yeah, please remind me what I said.
Gary S:
You say, “Understand who you are, where you want to go.” And I love this line, “And whatever gets in the way becomes the way.” Unpack that a little bit for folks.
Kevin E:
Right. Yes. The obstacle is the way. So if things are roadblocks in your life, let’s take for instance a relationship that you need to patch up, give that person a call. If your room is messy, clean it up. If there’s things that you are not getting done for your organization, get it done, stay disciplined, and you’re going to find that life is going to be a lot easier for you.
Kevin E:
So, I think anything that comes in the way we recognize that, and a lot of the times we think of it as a bad thing when reality it’s exactly what we have to do. So, you understand who you are and then the obstacle is the way. Absolutely.
Warwick F:
Wow. I mean, that is so profound. That’s very Crucible Leadership like, that the-
Gary S:
It’s also very stoicism-like, are you a big fan of The Stoics because I’ve… yeah.
Kevin E:
Yeah. It’s Marcus Aurelius, yeah.
Warwick F:
Yeah. We had somebody on the podcast actually, was it Joe Badaracco and there was Step Back… was it in that book? I think he mentioned that. He was also in the movie Gladiator, at least his character was. Marcus-
Gary S:
Not Joseph Badaracco, but-
Warwick F:
No, Marcus Aurelius the emperor of Rome.
Gary S:
Right. Yeah.
Warwick F:
Yeah. So-
Kevin E:
Here’s the caveat of that, is the part we don’t talk about, is the part you have to eliminate. What are those toxic relationships in your life? What are those things that are taking away time from you? Netflix, HBO, alcohol, drugs, staying inside. Those are the difficult things, and those are the obstacles. We’ve got to avoid those and eliminate those from our lives and eliminate everything that isn’t in our intention, that isn’t going to get to where we’re going. And again, we’re all human, we’re all flawed, it’s not going to be perfect, but just realizing those things when they happen, I think is half the battle.
Warwick F:
Wow. That’s very profound. What gets in the way becomes the way. That’s what we say on Crucible Leadership that sometimes crucible experiences they can be clarifying, maybe it’s, I should never do this again, or coming out of your pain, can be a purpose, like the Navy seal, I mentioned he was paralyzed and now has a clinic in San Diego. I mean, that’s really the core of Crucible Leadership.
Warwick F:
I guess maybe one last question is, if you interviewed a whole stack of people on Real Leaders, what would you say is the biggest lesson that you’ve learnt from interviewing all this people?
Kevin E:
Biggest lesson learned. I think is the one I shared earlier, is that you never know who’s going to show up on the opposite side. All of our guests have had amazing lessons that they’ve shared along the show, and there’s always something you can take away from every single interview. But I think really just for me personally, is just, you can do all the research you want, you can do all the preparation you want, but you really don’t know who is going to show up on the opposite side. So I hope today’s interview was good for you guys and being the guest this time around.
Warwick F:
No, absolutely. It was fantastic.
Kevin E:
I had a great time, I really enjoyed it.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Gary S:
And I’ve been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word has been spoken on a subject. And that was it. The plane is indeed on the tarmac, on the runway on whatever it is they land. I get this wrong all the time, because I’m just not an aviation guy. But, before we go, I usually do some takeaways and I wrote three down. And then the more we talked, I’m like, well, we emphasize on this one a lot. So I’m going to stick to one takeaway for you today, listener from our conversation today, and that is something Kevin said and something Kevin’s lived, we call it a Crucible Leadership soul work, but it’s finding out what your unique gifts and passions are.
Gary S:
Kevin arrived at what he calls his north star, and what Warwick called when he was talking about it as his calling, by doing that soul work, asking others what made him unique, taking a hard look at his skills and vision, and it led him to his life’s purpose. Having meaningful conversations that change lives. Ask yourself with input from others what’s yours? What’s your purpose? And then get after it, because that is in Crucible Leadership language, your life of significance.
Gary S:
Thank you listener for spending time with us today. If you enjoyed this conversation with Kevin Edwards, we would ask you to subscribe to the podcast for sure, but share it with your friends, post it on social media, let people know about it because the more people who know about it, and Kevin is a great example of this. He drove all over the country, interviewed social entrepreneurs, sleeping on holey air mattresses, and now he’s got a podcast with a large platform where he is making a difference. So as you share it with people, it helps us get more people exposed to the content here. And if you like the content here, hopefully you’ll want to see that happen.
Gary S:
So until the next time we’re together, we ask you to remember this, the crucibles in your life are real, they’re painful, they hurt, they can knock you off your feet, but they are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles, the beginning of a new chapter in your story, and that new chapter can be the best chapter in your story, because where it’s going to lead to when the last period is put on the last page, is what we call a life of significance.
John Sikkema had it all. Except peace. Having carved out successful careers in insurance sales and finance, he felt in his 40’s that his life was careening out of control. Soon his car was, too. It was the combination of the accident he was surprised he survived, and the damage his obsession with making money was doing to his marriage and his faith, that led him to something better than the bottom line. When he heard a message at church about pursuing a greater purpose, one that involved serving others, he began a journey to the kind of joy money absolutely cannot buy. Today, as chairman of Halftime Australia, an executive coaching and mentoring organization, he helps other business leaders build lives of significance in the next act of their careers.
To learn more about John Sikkema and Halftime Australia, visit www.halftime.org.au. The organization also has a U.S. branch: www.halftime.org
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond The Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
John S:
I’d become a workaholic at that point and was working 80 hours a week and I had all the trappings of success. I built a beautiful architect home overlooking a beach and a golf course out of convict bricks. I had a beach house at Orford an hour from Hobart on the beach. I had the BM and I had four kids at private school and I was running and jogging every couple of days. Life looked pretty cool on the outside. I’m a CEO, the largest shareholder. I’m churchgoing. I looked really good, but cracks started appearing and the wheels started falling off.
Gary S:
It would turn out that it wasn’t just John Sikkema’s life that was careening out of control. Soon his car was too, and it was the combination of the accident he was surprised he survived and the distance his obsession with making money put in his marriage and his faith that led to his putting the wheels back on in a meaningful way. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. In this conversation with Warwick, John talks in detail about how chasing the wrong things brought him material wealth, but also brought him low. Then a message he heard at church about pursuing a greater purpose, one that involves serving others, led him to find joy that money absolutely could not buy. Today, as chairman of Halftime Australia, an executive coaching organization, he helps other business leaders build lives of significance in the next act of their careers.
Warwick F:
Well, John, thank you so much for being here. I’ve enjoyed getting to know you and loved reading your book. I mean, it’s just so… it’s really inspiring and so much of what we talk about in Crucible Leadership and you really model this. You’ve lived this. Tell us a bit about the backstory. I know you were born in Holland and came to Australia and in Tasmania and life was not exactly easy when you first came out. There was some adjustments. Tell us a bit about just growing up in Tasmania and just that transition as a five-year old boy to Tasmania.
John S:
It was quite a transition. One of the things I remember was it age five going to school and my mum liked making homemade clothes and not only couldn’t I speak the language, but I had clothes that looked different than all the other children. I can remember when I look back it now, I was quite a shy boy growing up when I look back on it. But certain things I was prepared to speak up against and I said to my mum when I came home from school, “Mum, I’m not wearing homemade clothes anymore. You’re going to have to buy me the same clothes as everybody else. Another thing is, I don’t want you to speak Dutch at home anymore. I want you to speak English because otherwise we’ll never learn the language here.” First five years we were here, my mum cried almost every day. My dad had spent five years in America during the war. He was in the merchant Navy and his vessel was blown up and he was some of the few that escaped in a lifeboat and was picked up by a American destroyer called Rodney and ended up in South Africa. Then they went to America and he stayed there for the whole war. When he came back to Holland, his mum had died while he was away.
John S:
But one of the funny things that I remember is my brother. I’ve got two brothers. I’ve got a younger brother and a younger sister. My younger brother is called Franklin Rodney and my sister is called Eleanor. It was the Roosevelt’s that were in power at this time and the boat that picked my dad up was a destroyer called Rodney. I’ve got a bit of a connection with you Gary that it made me feel a little bit remote and my dad wanted to migrate to America after the war. The problem was my mum didn’t want to go. She turned on the waterworks and my dad had to tear up the immigration papers to America because he loved the US. Mum had some relatives in Australia, so he wanted to get out of war-torn Europe after the war, so we ended up… He represented some papers to my mother to come to Australia and my mum finally said, “This guy is never going to give up.” She said, yes, but we ended up in Tasmania on a dirt road in a place called Blackmans Bay, which today is not politically correct apparently.
John S:
Anyway, the funny thing was, it wasn’t really funny, my mum, she came from the prosperous part of Holland in a place called Groningen and when they were… she would go down the street to buy meat, she would go into the butcher and they’d be flies around the butchery shop and the meat was wrapped in newspaper. My mum would be tearing her hair out and saying, “What has happened? Why have I done this? Why have I been taken to this remote island called Tasmania?” There’s some of my early memories, but the other memory I had was because my parents didn’t have a lot of money, I started my own business probably at about 10 years of age doing paper rounds. I do joke a little bit tongue in cheek, at age 14 I was financially independent because I was doing a paper round every morning. I was up at sort of quarter to 6:00, 5:30 and on the Saturday night they had a Melbourne Herald delivered and the Saturday Evening Mercury in Tasmania. I’d do that on Saturday night and sell in pubs and round the street.
John S:
Then there was a golf course across the road that I would go. I used to caddy for four hours back then for 60 cents. I soon realized that if I spent four hours looking for golf balls, I could earn $2. I retired from caddying at 14 and became a illegal professional golf ball finder and the… because it was illegal so I had to run around and I was pretty nimble and fast. There was a guy there that used to look out for people like me, but I never got caught. But the thing too is I found that I could sell them for $2 to the pro, but I also found that if I cut out the middleman, the pro, and hid under a bridge by a river where people hit the ball in, I could sell them for $3 and I got a 50% pay increase so I cut out the middle man. That was my survival instinct as a boy growing up in Tasmania. Anyway, that’s just a bit of a backstory.
Warwick F:
That is a fascinating story. I’m just curious, do you ever ask your dad how come my siblings got American political names, the name of a ship? What about John? Do you ever say, what about me? What was the deal with it?
John S:
The interesting thing too, I forgot to tell that little bit, my name’s not John. My name is Jan. Because I don’t know what your parents were called Warwick, but three generations it was Jan. My grandfather was Jan. My dad was Jan. I was Jan. That was the other problem. When I went to school in Australia and I know you get teased a bit in America with Warwick name, as opposed to Warwick. I got teased, because in Australia, a girl’s name is J-A-N.
Warwick F:
Jan.
John S:
Yes. I can remember going to the Royal Hobart Hospital and I had to have an operation on my arm and the nurse would call out at the top of her voice. This was a public ward and she would yell out at the top of the voice Jan Sikkema and it sounded, Jan Sikkema and it sounded like a girl. Everyone would be looking around for a female and I would sheepishly have to get up and say, “That’s me.” I made an executive decision also in grade one to change my name from Jan to John Sikkema. I’m actually not really John Sikkema. I’m actually Jan Sikkema, but in this day and age I would probably get away with it and get sympathy. But in those days they didn’t have foreigners in Tasmania. I was one of the few there so it was very awkward. I had to stand up for myself at a very early age and make-
Warwick F:
Oh my God.
John S:
… some decisions. Anyway.
Warwick F:
Boy, that’s amazing. Obviously coming out from Holland life wasn’t easy. You write in your book that where you lived wasn’t this tremendous house on the cliff or which you ended up years later. It was pretty tough. But right from the beginning you just had this hunger to make something of yourself, to succeed and I know you did a number of different jobs, traveled around Australia. But you ended up landing with insurance and you tried a couple of things and work for, what was the insurance company, National-
John S:
National Mutual, which eventually-
Warwick F:
… National-
John S:
… became ING.
Warwick F:
Right. Then you met your wife, Sue, just before that, but she’s from Tasmania too, but you went over there. Talk about some of those early days, recently married, working in insurance. That was sort of the first step on the road to your career in a sense.
John S:
Well, one of the things I found in Australia to get accepted was to play sport as a Dutch person.
Warwick F:
Right.
John S:
I took up Aussie rules, which we call real football. For your American audience we play on a ground that is twice as big with twice as many players and we have to run twice as long, so don’t feel bad about this. We don’t wear pads at all Gary.
Gary S:
And that makes us half as good then.
John S:
Look-
Warwick F:
I mean-
John S:
… I wouldn’t draw that inference, but you might. But the interesting thing was I did year 11 here, which you do before you go to university. My dad said, “John, if you go to university, you need to give up sport.” Now, that was waving a red rag to a bull, and I’m a bit of an ADD person anyway. It was a pretty easy decision not to go to university so I went into banking and finance and I always had an interest in that. I realized at age 23 that I was going really well in my career in the business world, but I had to go and study accountancy eight years part-time. I did the maths on that and I thought if I went into selling, I might be able to get ahead. I realized, so I quit that and went into a selling role and I doubled my income by learning to cold call in Melbourne, selling insurance out of the phone book, just making cold calls.
Warwick F:
Talk about how you didn’t start at the front of the phone book. You had a different strategy, which I thought was quite creative.
John S:
Well, one of the things I’ve learned is try and work where you don’t have competition. Why would you go where there’s a lot of competition? I thought, I think I’ll go to the Ws in the phone book. I won’t start at the very back, but I’ll go close to the back. I’ll go to the Ws and which would be the phone book pages people would dislike the most, would probably be the Williams’s because there was thousands of them. I went to the W in the phone book and I ended up selling quite a few policies because… and nearly 90% of my clients were in the Ws. I had a filing cabinet for the files and they were nearly all in the Ws. I was shocked when the sales manager read out the sales results and there were a lot of big talkers in this team of 20 salespeople and when he read out the sales results after six months, I was the number two salesperson.
John S:
What really quite surprised me, I just had a plan of working where I didn’t have competition, which I remember I used to work with young new policeman and nurses working in the mental hospitals where a lot of the other financial advisors or insurance salesman didn’t go. But I found after a while, I got bored with that. But I did become the top salesman out of 300 salesmen in Victoria, principally by cold calling and having good working habits and maybe being prepared to do what other people weren’t prepared to do and just have a good habit, a good plan and stick at it. I found I got a bit bored with that and after a while I found I really loved business. I could help people who were in partnerships. I used to call them accountants who are partnership kings. They often themselves were in the company in the family trust, but they left all their small business people in a partnership.
John S:
I would find people paying 20,000 a year tax back then and I could say, “I can show you how you only pay 10,000 tax a year instead of 20 by putting you into a company in a family trust and you can put $10,000 into super.” In those days there was a company called Occidental Life who had a great super policy with a 5% admin fee and they paid 65% of premium as a commission and paid a renewal fee.
Warwick F:
Just for US listeners, superannuation is the equivalent of pension funds here, that kind of thing, right?
John S:
Yep.
Warwick F:
Keep going..
John S:
I was able to double my income again. I set up 35 companies and family trusts in one year because my average policy size went from $500 a year or 1,000, this is a long time ago, to about 5,000 or $6,000 a year.
Warwick F:
You were doing really well, but at some point you decided, I don’t want to work for somebody else. I want to work for myself. I mean, a lot of people wouldn’t do that because I mean, how many small businesses survive? I mean, the odds are probably not high, but yet you’ve never been one to shy away from a challenge. You said, “This is fine, but I want to go out on my own.” Talk about that decision. It was a big decision at that time I’m sure.
John S:
Well, already at age 14, like I’d said before, I tend to think I was financially independent and self-employed running three… I was going fruit picking in the school holidays, paper around, golf course. I realized that probably I’d be better to go and work for myself because when I actually worked in a bank with my first job after school, they said to become a bank manager you have to wait till age 33. I was 17 and the maths on that wasn’t very attractive, 16 years before I got the top salary and I was quite a good worker. I thought this is too long. At 23 I left and went on full commission for National Mutual. At 26 I decided that I always wanted to help people. I was motivated by helping people, but getting paid for it.
John S:
At 26, I thought, well, why don’t I go become a broker so I can give people not just National Mutual policies, I can give them the best policies. My income dropped by 50% for one year while I did that. But I had the satisfaction that I was helping people, but also I was build… They paid a trial commission, which National Mutual didn’t. I was building an asset. I had this in my bones that build a business, build an asset, get a lower income, do a better deal for clients. That ticked all my values boxes and that’s when I… because my income had dropped, that’s why it was attractive to set up the companies in family trusts. I could give them the best superannuation policy, if it was Occidental or Mercantile Mutual was another company that had very good policies.
John S:
The big companies like AMP National Mutual didn’t have as good a policy. By being a broker, I could sleep at night and know Warwick that I gave you the best deal that was available. I knew that I was also building a lifetime business potentially for myself. I enjoyed the freedom because got married young and we moved to Melbourne where we didn’t know anybody. But Sue’s family was in Tassie, my family was in Tassie and I grew up… Sue didn’t grow up in a Christian home and I did and I found after a while us gallivanting, we were living on the mainland, we enjoyed it. But we just lacked that sense of community and I wanted our children to grow up with grandparents and a sense of community. I went to a Christian school. I went to church regularly and that foundational… those values I found that I wanted my children to have.
John S:
I could see in the big cities that that’s a bit of a problem. I could just look ahead. I’ve always had the ability to look ahead and intuitively in my spirit I just thought, so I’ve walked away from the really high income I was earning in Melbourne and decided to move back to Tassie. Sue wasn’t really that happy about that. We had a beautiful 20 acre property. She loved horses and animals, but I felt that our family was going to be better off. I was prepared to pay the price and move back to Tassie and it was quite humbling because I was quite a successful person in Melbourne. In Tassie I had to go back to square one and go backwards and start from scratch. There isn’t the same talent pool in the smaller… It’s like a big country town.
John S:
The problem is I was then back selling smaller policies and doing less business and having to humble myself. But it’s the best decision I ever made because Sue got really involved in our local church because she didn’t grow up as a Christian. My Christian faith was always about here and she had… But once she became a Christian, her faith went to there and she became very evangelistic and wanted to share her faith and convert her family and all her friends. She got a lot of rejection and I must admit my theology, maybe I wasn’t such a good listener Warwick, but I used to hear messages like the rich young ruler or the narrow road and the eye of the needle, the love of money and I used to think, well, I love what money can do. It was a very fine line.
John S:
I thought if I ever get to heaven, I’ll probably just scrape in there. But Sue was only a Christian for a matter of a couple of years and she ran an outreach Sunday school and just had a heart for people who didn’t know Jesus. Then after a while she went through this… there was an American program called EE3, which was about cold calling on evangelism. Sue was very courageous when it came to horse riding and evangelism, but on everything else she was risk averse and she’s a detail person. Whereas I’m the one that was very gung ho and big picture, but when it came to sharing my faith, it was very private and I didn’t share it. This is what sort of set the scene for a lot of things that happened later in life that I look back on now and they make sense, but at the time I just thought, well, I don’t know. I’ve had some teaching on predestination and people will have the opportunity to go to church, if they do, or they don’t, I don’t know where my theology was at that time. But I was a fairly private in everything Warwick.
John S:
It wasn’t like I was… I’m really an introvert. I’m an extrovert when it comes to achieving what I feel I want. If there’s a goal I want to achieve, I’ll role play and do what it takes. But by nature, I’m quite a loner and I enjoy my own company.
Warwick F:
No, I get it. I know the turning point in your life was a obviously car accident and then a moment in church with this bikey guy, John Smith. Before we get there because it’s fascinating beats to the story, you founded this company Garrisons. Now, before that sort of car crash thing, that was already growing, wasn’t it, Garrisons?
John S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
I mean, you were building up a business. Talk about sort of the pre almost car crash. Where were you in business? I mean, you were really building something impressive.
John S:
Well, what happened when I moved back to Tassie as a independent broker on being able to do insurance and super, I wanted to help people more and give them access to property investment and share investments. When the financial planning industry was born in Australia, I again moved from being the broker into financial planning. Most of the information was coming out of the US. There was a guy in Sydney called Robert Morrison, who was the pioneer of the financial planning industry in Australia. I decided that I would move out of insurance and super broking and go into financial planning. Again, my income halved in the first couple of years, because you didn’t get paid the big commissions that you got on selling insurance and super. I decided also, because I hadn’t bothered to go and do the accountancy study, to do financial planning you really needed to be quite good technically.
John S:
One of the things I’ve always done is improvise, so I thought, well, how do I move into this industry without me going to university and studying accountancy? I decided to find an accountant. I advertised to find an accountant who could work alongside me to give my business the technical credibility, and I would become the front end and the people person to get the new clients, but this person would do all the technical report writing and the compliance and whatever. This worked really quite well. But then after a while, I found too that I’m too fast paced to do financial planning because you’re dealing with older people and they’ve got money on term deposit and they sort of scratch their head and they think, “Oh, well, I’m not sure of the market’s right now so I’ll flip it over again for another six months.”
John S:
I was used to selling insurance where literally I could go into a lounge room and we used to talk about backing the hearse scene, so I could sit down with you and your wife, Warwick and sort of say, well, to your wife, “Well, what happens if Warwick didn’t come home from work tomorrow? What would happen to you?” I’d ask that question. You could pretty well walk out-
Warwick F:
Right.
John S:
… with a sale and get paid. Financial planning, I might come and see you and you might have money to invest, but there’s no urgency. I thought this is-
Warwick F:
Right.
John S:
… driving me crazy. I thought, “I think I’m better off to probably get other people to do the financial planning and I’ll get the new clients in.” I decided to start my own financial planning and employ financial planners, but because I wasn’t big enough and didn’t have capital, I couldn’t grow it. A guy across town whose parents owned a whole lot of supermarkets, he got his own license. Back in those days you could get a license from the regulator like buying a loaf of bread. He had a license and it was interesting. He asked me to join him, plus he had another guy who was a property trust guy, and the other guy got 25% equity. I got 25 transferring my clients and this guy owned 50. I went in there as the third person, but I found very quickly that I was the one that was building the business. I’d like growing things, so I started an office in Launceston and Burnie. I started growing the business and I found we didn’t share the same values.
John S:
I had a long-term view about client relationships and I was prepared to lose money in the short term to build a long-term business. The guy who owned the shares, the 50%, well, he was used to looking at the till each month and seeing if we made a profit or a loss, and he wanted to make decisions on that basis. I found we weren’t on the same… we didn’t have the same vision for the business and the other guy was just wanting to do property trusts. I orchestrated quite a painful experience in buying, first of all, out the 50% shareholder and we had to go into debt to do that on the process of… and then the other guy, I bought them both out and I had a second mortgage on my house, I had credit card debt. But I then was able to get people to join me who shared my values.
John S:
That’s when the business took off. But to finance it, I sold 49% of the business to Mercantile Mutual to get rid of some personal debt and corporate debt and so we could grow the business and that’s what happened. We then saw the business take off. But one of the problems we had was I’d become a workaholic at that point and was working 80 hours a week. I had all the trappings of success. I built a beautiful architect home overlooking a beach in the golf course out of convict bricks. I had a beach house at Orford an hour from Hobart on the beach. I had the BM and I had four kids at private school and I was running and jogging every couple of days. Life looked pretty cool on the outside. I’m a CEO, the largest shareholder, four kids all at private school. I’m churchgoing. I looked really good, but cracks started appearing. The wheels started falling off. This is where I had a massive wake up call because I used to go to Launceston, which was a couple of hours drive every Friday.
Warwick F:
Just so that US audiences understand, Tasmania is not that big a place. You’ve got Hobart in the Southeast, Launceston in the north. That’s sort of like one end of the state to the other is a couple hours or something like that.
John S:
It’s like a dream. You picture British Columbia or something. It’s like that sort of… I used to go there every Friday. I’d be up at, leave home at 6:00 and I would be there by 8:30. I don’t know. If you do the same drive continually, you go into a bit of a trance and your mind wanders and you think about everything else. Your car is almost in auto drive. It’s like the cars that we’re making now, driverless car. You basically are driving it, but you’re… You’d sometimes think, “I don’t remember driving through this town because you just… One Friday when I drove up there, from one week to the next they’d actually moved the road, but I didn’t know. I came around and saw the normal road signs and drove around the corner the same as I would normally and I’m heading straight for a truck and my life flashed in front of me and I thought, “My life’s over, I’m dead.”
John S:
I shut my eyes. I swung the steering wheel and bang, I hit the side of the truck and I’m up the road 50 meters and I’m thinking, “How come I’m not dead? I must have some guardian angels looking after me because I thought my life was over.” I couldn’t believe that I hadn’t died. I got out and looked at the car and there was scratches all along the side, but it could still limp along. I remember thinking, “This is symptomatic of my life. My life’s out of control. I’m just so obsessed with success and building this business.” I thought I realized I have to change and it made me really reflect on what is my purpose in life and what am I doing? It made me dig deep.
John S:
Not only did I have that car crash, but it was around that time that I mean, I’d also having bad migraine headaches. I used to come home two nights a week and literally take some heavy medication and go to bed with a wet face washer and some ice blocks and wouldn’t surface till the morning in the dark room, couldn’t talk, couldn’t eat with the family, sometimes physically ill. I’d also created quite a bit of debt to own the most shares in the company, buying out these other shareholders, having a beautiful home and all the trappings of success. I had financial health. Then on top of that, my wife said to me one day, “John, you’re not the fun guy I married, you’re a workaholic and we get the leftovers and when you are home, you’re often lying on the couch or in bed with migraines. I can’t cope with this. I didn’t sign up for this. Unless you change, I want out.”
John S:
I was shocked by that because in my mind I was working hard for my family. Probably worse than the health or the debt or the relational was I actually thought I don’t like who I’ve become. I don’t like who I am. Look what’s happened to me. It was a really a soul searching period that I started thinking, how did I get to this? This is not what I set out to do. It was quite a traumatic… I started really searching and wondering. I mean, I must admit I was a bit of a five minutes a day Bible reader and a five minute a day prayer person. I was very efficient. I was able to work a lot of the time and problem is with the family too, I’d take them on a family holiday each year, but it was like catching up, but short changing them as well. It was really difficult.
John S:
Then one day I heard a talk that changed my life, because we used to go to church regularly, but I always felt a bit of a misfit in church. I wasn’t a muso, I wasn’t a Sunday school teacher. I wasn’t the youth leader, the extrovert. But anyway, I believed in God and I had quite strong faith. But this day I went to church and there was a bikey, Harley-Davidson bikey who set up God Squad, not only in Australia, but overseas as well, called John Smith.
John S:
He got up in the pulpit and often you snooze through a few sermons here and there and he really caught my attention because he said, “If I could find 100 business men to give me a million dollars each week, It could change this nation. That was when we had the Lionel Murphy divorce laws going through where you could have no fault divorce and there was the whole social fabric of what we’d grown up with on the value of marriage was being challenged. He was really vocal about that and when he said that my heart lept. I thought, “That’s me. I’m one of the 100.” I temporarily forgot about the desperately unhappy wife. I forgot about all my debt that I’d accumulated to own all these things. I forgot about my migraines.
John S:
You know what happened, I remembered that when I was 14 and I used to look for golf balls, do my paper round between 6:00 and 7:00, 7:30 I was on the golf course. I remember being by a swamp on the ninth hole and I used to have regular spots so I could find these 20 golf balls in four hours. I remember having a conversation in my head that I’d never had before in my life saying, “Why am I so blessed? Why am I literally able to buy anything because I’ve always got money? Why do I live idyllically by the beach? Why have I got great parents? Why did I had been able to go to a Christian school? It’s not fair. Look at all the people in the world that I read about and see that haven’t got what I’ve got. I know what I’m going to do.” When I turn age 50, I’m going to spend the rest of my life helping others. What I’m going to do between now then is make as much money as I can. Obviously I’ll get married, have children, have a mortgage pay off, but that’s what I’m going to do.”
John S:
I had this conversation in my head and actually, when I thought about it, I thought, “How come I’m having this conversation in my head?” I went to a very conservative church. I knew about God and Jesus. I didn’t really understand the Holy Spirit. I had a simple faith and I probably didn’t listen in church enough Warwick. I thought, “If I tell anybody what I’ve just experienced, they’d think I’m going mad.” You know what I did, I didn’t tell one person that I had that conversation in my head because I thought if I told anyone, they would say, “You’ve got to go and see a psychologist. John…”
Warwick F:
This conversation when you were 14, you mean? When you were-
John S:
Yeah.
Warwick F:
Wow.
John S:
Now when you move the clock back, 26 years later I’m 40 and I’m sitting in the church, that conversation, which I hadn’t thought about since 14 came back to me when he said, “Now I understand the Holy Spirit, I understand how God works.” I realized that God had been put in my spirit. I’d had a holy spirit time here, a divine moment at 14. Then at 40 a dream had been reignited by that John Smith moment that had been, I feel God had used him to deposit that in my spirit to rekindle a dream and a purpose that God had for my life. You wouldn’t believe it if probably 10 minutes later in that same church service I heard virtually in an audible voice saying, “John, I did not create you for you to be successful. I created you to help others succeed and if you will do that, you will be truly successful.” Literally sitting in church there I think, “You’ve got it all back to front. You idiot.”
John S:
And the lights came on. I thought, “Ah, I’ve been trying so hard so I could be really really successful so one day I can be generous. I need to be generous along the way and I can help people now.” Then I got what I knew was a quickening. I got a holy spirit download of all the things I had to change in my life. I’ve got it and I won’t go through them now Warwick, they’re in my book, chapter six. But the first one was stop trying to change my wife to suit my success and help her be who God created her to be, make myself available in the community and don’t use headaches or debt or business as an excuse not to help the school that my children are going to or the church.
John S:
I’d been asked to go on the school board of my children’s Christian school. I’d been asked to become an elder at the church. I had said no to both of those. Now, I’m saying stop being logical and do. If God calls you to do that, you say yes. One of the other things I wrote down was stop reading the Bible as a historical book of 2000 years ago written and read it as God’s business plan to man. I understood business plans really well. They were powerful. My life was run by a business plan with vision, mission, values, action plans, KPIs and I loved it. I used that, the whole business. I thought, “Well, that’s really, God actually wrote one not just for one person, He wrote that for everybody on the planet. If they would bother to read it as a plan on how to live your life, manage your finances. You go to Ecclesiastes, about one, two, three, diversify your investments, send them overseas. You don’t know where your crop… take risks. You look at the Bible and about marriage, everything in there about how to do business, marriage, make God your first love and give your first fruits, don’t give me the leftovers and test me and your barns will overflow. All these things I discovered.
John S:
After those, I wrote down these 13 things and start loving myself. I realized I didn’t love myself. I’d allowed Satan to snatch, steal, destroy and I basically had… I was driven too much by fear. I’d stopped taking risks. I had to go back and I’d like C.S. Lewis about all these little… The devil is so cunning sending out all these little devils. I didn’t realize the spiritual battle that I was in at work, or when I was away, so tended to be the holy huddle Bible study church, I felt. But six days a week, you’re out there in the jungle on your own and I’ve realized that we need to recognize the voice of the Holy Spirit. We need to be in the word of God every day. We need to be mixing with others. That happened. But then you had an altar call, this bikey and I’m in a church of 300 people and I’m a well-known person. I’m a CEO of a company. I thought, “I still got pride, no way am I going up to the front to say my life is a mess here.”
John S:
You know what I did, I quietly sneak out the back and raced home Warwick and went into my study, got a sheet of paper, shut the door and I wrote down… I thought before I forget this download, I’ve got to write them all down.
Warwick F:
I mean, that’s really… I just want to read a couple of things you have in your book because that’s… and obviously we’ll get here to what you’re doing now. But what that bikey said, it changed your life. I mean, what you write in your book, you said-
Gary S:
Can I jump in for a second?
Warwick F:
Please, go ahead.
Gary S:
On behalf of all the Americans and you guys can define, I think I know what it is-
Warwick F:
Sure.
Gary S:
… but what’s a bikey.
Warwick F:
Go ahead.
John S:
A Harley-Davidson is. I think they originate in the US.
Gary S:
Right.
John S:
If you ride that in Australia, you’re called a bikey.
Gary S:
Okay. We call them bikers here in the States.
Warwick F:
Yeah.
Gary S:
Got it.
Warwick F:
The leather jacket, there’s a certain look.
Gary S:
Right.
Warwick F:
Exactly. Well pointed out. One of the things this guy said, John Smith, he said, “Instead of disparaging wealth and making me feel guilty.” This is you, John, commenting. Instead of disparaging wealth and making me feel guilty because I had some money, he challenged people like me to use that affluence, not solely for our own comfort, but to help others. He explained that each of us had been uniquely wired and created for a purpose, for a greater purpose than just aiming to live a comfortable life. You say, “I was put on this earth to accomplish something for a higher purpose, yet I was living as if I was the only one that mattered.” Then you say this, “Here’s part of his message that really hit a raw nerve. If you want God to bless you, that will only happen when you put him first in your life.” You really, your whole life changed. You say it was a change or die moment. You wrote those 13 principles, one of which is stop chasing success and pursue purpose instead. I mean, that changed your whole life.
John S:
Oh, yeah. It was a defining moment. One of the things that in Australia there’s a whole movement called about life balance. I actually tried life balance and I don’t believe in life balance. I actually believe when you really define life balance, it’s basically saying I’m going to be selfish because to have a balanced life, you don’t want to do things that will unbalance it. But if you pursue… If you look at Paul in the Bible, did he have life balance? Because he was shipwrecked, he was stoned, he was beaten up, but he pursued his calling. I think we need to realize that to pursue our calling might come at a cost and it might not give us life balance. I think Western Christianity has fallen for the same issue that the secular world… the secular world is life balance means you just have a nice life and everything is nice around you and you’re generous, but only to a point where it doesn’t cost you. You’re not going to cross the road and help the good Samaritan if it unbalances your life or means you can’t eat or if you haven’t got a home or you’re going to… I believe that life balance is something the devil would like us to do.
Warwick F:
What’s amazing about that is you work just as hard just in some areas in the business, but also in some non-profits in part Jossy Chacko and what you’re doing with Halftime Australia and your consulting purpose based business. You’re working all these hours, but yet your marriage and your relationship with your kids got better, because what you write is when you were there with them, you were present, you were alive, you were more alive than you’d ever been. I don’t know if it was… it wasn’t necessarily more work-life balance, but you were just more fully alive, more fully who God intended you to be and everything improved, right?
John S:
Yeah. Well, what happened was I got… after I wrote down those 13 things and put them in the drawer and shut, I didn’t tell Sue either, because I’d been a bit of a sweet nothing man. I’d make promises and not deliver. I thought it’s no use her telling me, after the service, after I put all that away, I said, “Great service. It really spoke to me.” I just gave her an overview, but I didn’t tell specifically, number one on the list is I’m going to… I just started role-playing and behaving differently. But God put me through a couple of tests then and a mate of mine who was on the school board, the school was losing a million a year and he said, “John, can you come and help the school and become the treasurer?”
John S:
The old me would have said, “No way.” Now, after my defining moment, I decided to put Jesus in the front seat of the car, rather than beside me or out in the back seat. I used to drive the car and make decisions and ask God to ratify them. I said I’ve got to get in the backseat. When I was asked to be on the school board, now I’m praying about it and saying, “God, if this is what you want me to do, that it’s actually what I’ll do.” I felt at peace. “Yes, this is what I want you…” I used to hate school. I love sports and I love business, but school was not a place I really enjoyed. God was taking me back and testing me. I went on the school board and they were losing a million a year in today’s dollars, but I realized they’d lost their vision and they had the wrong principal and the wrong bursar.
John S:
I used my business skills to bring in an external consultant who did personality profiling and assessment. I sat down with the bursar and said, “Mate, you’re so good at… you’re entrepreneurial. You should be in a business, not a bean counter. We need an ex bank manager or someone here looking after the finances of the school.” He then resigned, no redundancy and started a business and he’s still in it today, 25 years later. The principal, after going through that realized he was a primary school principal rather than looking after three or four campuses. He resigned as well and the school and never looked back. The thing I had to do is I realized that our fees were too low. We had top quartile education, bottom quartile fees.
John S:
We did analysis for all the schools in Australia and I went to an AGM and said, “We’ve got to lift the fees by 50% from January 1.” Because all the previous treasurers had been politically correct and prayerful, but didn’t have the guts to tell the truth. I said, “I could put up the fees by 15% every year for three or four years or do it one go in 50.” I only had to put them up by 40, but I realized by doing it 50, I could cream money from the Gary’s and the Warwick’s and give it to the poor and I set up a Robinhood fund and had a hundred thousand dollars in it and poor people could show me their tax return. I realized I could use my business skills in the community and I got great satisfaction from that.
John S:
Well, I did that for five years. Then the local church had a charismatic split, second one, 100 people left and went to another church and my mate, who was on the school board said, “John, can you come and help us find another pastor so we can sack the pastor.” I said, “Really?” And I said, “Well, you’ve got a job description?” “No.” “You’ve got a plan for the church.” “No.” I said, “Well, I’ll only find a pastor and you’ll have another split because he’ll bring…”Oh, can you come and help the elders and the deacons? Talk to them about…” Anyway, here I find myself with the pillars of the church here, the business guy, and they said, “Could you find a…” I said, “No, I’m not going to help you find a pastor.” It must’ve been the Holy Spirit, I said, “I’ll tell you what I can do. What about meeting two nights a week for three months, every Monday and Wednesday night, 7:30 to 9:30. We’ll go through scripture and we’ll work out why we exist, then we’ll develop a plan. Then we’ll go and hire a pastor to implement it.” “Oh yep. Okay.” “Either that or I don’t.” They agreed.
John S:
I didn’t know my Bible very well and I thought I’m with all these great teachers and pastors. I had a friend of mine who I knew was very versed in the word of God and was involved in planning a church, so I said, “What can I do with these people? How am I going to take them through scripture? It’s the blind leading…” He said, “John, read this Bible verse and ask these five questions and put them into small groups and then get them to report back and you just document it and end up with a plan.” It’s exactly what I did. I faked it. Someone in America who’s good at that, I faked it and he might have Dutch blood as well. I don’t know. But anyway, so I put a plan together after three months, called a congregational meeting one Sunday afternoon. We did a creche. We got that plan approved and I called one pastor and then two and three. The numbers were 300. They’d gone to about 180 when I got involved. They made me chairman of elders and we grew the church in a country town from two to 600 in five years. I realized that God was equipping me in business to be able to work back and add value in other areas.
Warwick F:
Link that with what you’re doing now, because these are almost like trial balloons, or I think you write about it somewhere about stepping stones. It’s like, “Boy, I can use my business skills to really help nonprofits and organizations whose missions I care about.” But from there you still had a successful business. I think you sold that. I think you mentioned at one point …
John S:
That’s the crazy bit Warwick that I cut my hours back from 80 to 50 and spent 10 hours more at home and 20 hours in the community. That resurrected my marriage relationship. Sue saw me involved in the church and the school. She loved that. Amazingly, because I was a controlling leader, I have to admit and I can do it better than anyone else. I was competitive and whatever. When I went from 80 hours to 50, I had to start empowering people because I had to spend 30 hours away from the business. Then I went to an empowering leadership style, God gave me revelation on some ideas and I started taking risks. The business, I set up a funds management company, which I’d never done before. I’d started franchising our offices and expanding to all of Australia rather than just being in Tas.
John S:
The business grew by 40% percent per annum over the next 10 years. I was bankrupt on paper at 40. At 49, two months into my 50th year, I got an offer from Challenger, the listed company and we sold out, which allowed me two months into my 50th year the dream that God had put on my heart at 14. I was able to then spend the rest of my life helping others. I went to part-time CEO and met a guy on the plane who was doing amazing work in North India who had a vision to plant 100,000 churches. I had got our denomination, which normally didn’t plant churches to set up an organization called Vision 100 to plant 100 churches in Tassie. We got that off the ground, but we had planted one church and I’m thinking I’m pretty good.
John S:
I’m on a plane to a Hawaii to a conference and I sit next to this guy and I say, “What are you doing?” He says, “I’m a church planter.” He’s 19 years younger. I said, “Well, how many churches you planted?” I’m a numbers person. He said, “200.” I went, “Ah.” We’d planned on and I was… God doing another number on me. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I didn’t believe what he was telling me. I thought, “Why is God doing all this in North India and not in Australia.” Anyway, I went with him on a three-week trip to North India and I slept here and he slept there. We spent three weeks together and I went all through North India where less than 1% of the population are Christian, the 60% are Hindu, 20% Muslim.
John S:
I was just blown away by everything he told me was true that God was doing an amazing work in North India and he asked me to come and chair his board. I moved back to Tassie. 10 years before that Sue was talking divorce and we had our forever house. I said, “Darling I think I need to help this guy do this 100,000 church planting.” And I said, “Maybe I can get a flat in Port Melbourne and keep our house here.” She said, “No no, that won’t be good for our marriage. Let’s sell our dream home. Let’s sell our waterfront holiday home. We’ll move to Melbourne, not to Port Melbourne though. We’ll move to acreage.” We sold up everything and moved to Melbourne near where Jossy lived. I spent half my time helping him with setting up the infrastructure to do these 100,000 churches and help in Asia and then help him globally set up and spend the other half of my time coaching and mentoring business people to find their purpose. That’s all-
Warwick F:
As well as Halftime Australia. I mean, so you’re still-
Gary S:
Let me jump in.
Warwick F:
Please, go ahead.
Gary S:
I just want to jump in. I love stories, John. You tell fabulous stories. I could listen to you tell stories more than I can watch Netflix. But one thing as I hear your stories, there’s a quote that you have in your book that I think summarizes every story you’ve just told and that’s a quote from Gandhi who said this, “The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in service to others.” How has that thread been woven through your life and the stories you’ve shared so far with our listeners?
John S:
I really liked the Paul quote that daily, you’ve got to take up your cross and follow him. I think it’s a matter of dying to self and really being open to what God’s plan. Once in my forties, I sat down and crafted a mission statement with the help of a coach and I got real clarity about what… If I’m 90 lying back on my death bed, what would I… I can’t change the script from nought till 40, but I can change the script from 40 to 80 or 90 or whatever it is. Really, to hear well done good faithful servant, before we were born, God created good works in advance for us to do in Ephesians 2:10. One of the revelations God gave me, in the new living translation it says we are God’s masterpiece.
John S:
The first problem we’ve got the devil convinces us that we are not God’s masterpiece, which means we can’t then really step into our calling and do what God planned before us to do. I find that so many Christians will sit in a church pew, but if you ask them, are you clear on your calling? Most people are not, even though they’ve been in the church university for 30 or 40 years, sadly. They’ve got a generic concept of what their calling is. Well, it’s be a good father, a good husband, a good Christian, keep the 10 commandments, tithe, go to church, love my neighbor and I serve in this here. But we’ve created a very comfortable Western Christianity which is very riskless and we can quote lots of Bible verses, but we won’t take steps of faith. My passion is really, my change was I flipped and I had to let control of my own life.
John S:
I realized when I was 23 when I gave my life to Jesus, that I only surrendered half my life. I said, “I’ll keep this half for myself, my business.” Because I’m pretty good. I’ve proven I can keep goals. I can do that better than most of my peers, so just bless me doing that Lord and I will use that for your purpose. But God showed me 20 years of me going that way, I got my life in a mess and I had to surrender 100% of my life at 40. When John Smith spoke and I had that defining moment, I had to let go of my business skills. I had to become childlike in my faith and I then every day when I have problems, I would journal and say, “God, thank you for…” I used to keep a scorecard every month of goals I keep. I crossed out the word goals and said blessings. If I was dead, the only… being alive, the only reason I was able to keep those goals is because God blessed me and gave me favor.
John S:
The problems that I used to think I had, I now call them prayer points and I’ll write them down and I just keep writing them down. Every night I hand them over. My headaches miraculously were cured a month or two after I sold up everything and God knew I was following him, He gave me a miraculous cure of my headaches and he blessed my business when I cut my hours back from 30 and committed to surrender, not just 50. Because I used to make business decisions and ask God to ratify them. To answer your question, Gary, I would say it’s moving from 50% surrender to 100% surrender and putting Jesus in control of my life.
John S:
But daily, I have to fight my natural tendency to take control again. That’s my human nature. Because I love competition, I love goals, I love challenge. The danger is, like Paul, that’s why Paul says that, daily we got to surrender and go back to our first love in the letter to the seven churches. In the Western world, we’ve created comfort Christianity and we’ve made things very much around suiting our intellectual and our creature comforts. I love creature comforts and that hasn’t changed. But anyway, if that answers your question.
Gary S:
Indeed.
Warwick F:
Wow. I mean, that is so powerful, John. I mean, you’re a driven competitive person. It’s almost like you had a road to Damascus moment, I guess, within a short period of time, the car crash and that talk by John Smith in your church. How would you describe the difference between the old John Sikkema and the one that you are now? What’s the biggest difference between those two John Sikkemas would you say?
John S:
I actually think the first John Sikkema was always looking for a return on investment. I don’t know if it’s my Dutch background. I think I had selective generosity. I think one of the things that God has shown me is we can actually be 24/7 generous with our time and our skill. Money is the least component of that. Most of us can write out a check to buy time. If we want to go to a footy game rather than visit someone in hospital or something, if we can give some money to someone else to go and do it, we’re masters of contracting out things we don’t want to do. I think we’ve done that with our Christian faith as well. I really feel we’ve really got to be prepared to be generous 24/7. On of the lessons I had to learn and I learned that from my Indian friend, we’ve got to do the sowing and leave the reaping to God.
John S:
I was brought up more… if I invest this amount of time here, I need to get a return here. But I think biblically, what we should be doing is we should sow here and be generous and expect nothing back. But amazingly, somewhere else, God will bless us way beyond what we did with that and that’s where the Malachi thing comes into it about where barns will be overflowing. Give me your first fruits and test me. But we don’t quite trust God enough to give more. I think Corinthians 2 chapter eight about generosity, giving when you can’t afford to give, taking steps of faith. I just come across Christians who quote Bible verses ad nauseum, but really I can see from their life, they demonstrate very little faith.
John S:
They want all the ducks lined up and they’re worried about what man will say. What we really need to do is not have all the ducks lined up and take a step of faith and allow Jesus to join us and help us. It’s like saying, I’ll give you the words, if you get into court or you get persecuted, don’t worry about what you’re going to say, I’ll give you the words. God works, not only I’ll give you the words, but I’ll give you the resources. If you have a big vision to do something for God, you haven’t got the resources, don’t worry about it. Just go and do… step towards it and allow God to provide the provision. We’ve got to sow, don’t expect a return where we sow, but we’ve got to keep sowing generously and leave the reaping to God and just be grateful.
John S:
Use what he puts in our hand. Don’t worry about quoting too many Bible verses. I think be more about action and not so much about the words, because I think we’ve become very clever in our Christian world and I think we’ve got to unlearn a lot of what we have grown up with. I do feel the founding fathers like Wesley or Calvin or Luther, if they saw what we were doing under the brands of churches and they would be horrified and they would say, “You’re heresy what you’re doing.” I think we’ve got to forget about labels and denominational. We just got to get back to the word of God and not allow any human interferences or agreements to… We made it too complex and we’re overthinking. We overthink everything today. We not only overthink all our decision making, but as Christians, we overthink and we will talk about prayer, right, and we’ll talk about Bible reading and we’ll talk about conferences and whatever. It’s really quite simple. Just got to take little simple steps. You can take them at work.
John S:
One of my big things that are motivated about at the moment, and I’m putting a book together and I’m not a good writer so I got to get a lot of help, but is to use your business to turbocharge your life purpose. The problem I find today is that people, this is where their life purpose is, but most people don’t even know what it is. We need to spend time with God to find what is my life purpose and then what we actually need to do is narrow the gap. Because my business is here and my life purpose here, the gap between those two is tension and pressure. If you can bring your business in alignment like a bikey with a slip stream in alignment, you can turbocharge your life purpose.
John S:
I think we really got to get clear about what my calling is and my business at 90 on your death bed, you’re not going to say Warwick, “I wish I’d built that $2 billion business.” What you’re going to be… and that’s what your book is about and people should read it. It’s a great message. What you’re about is we want to use our business and our influence and our networks and the people we know to fulfill the great commission, to become workers for the harvest. God convicted me that we as business people are the apostolic people, not just leaders in our business, but we need to be apostolic about… We are in the marketplace. Jesus did most of his stuff in the marketplace, but we’re living all the great commission staff and the workers for the harvest, we somehow have got that quarantined into paid church workers and we are over here making money we give to them. They can’t do it.
John S:
In Australia we’ve had seven decades of declining church membership. Business people need to be in the marketplace and be active in the great commission. We’ve got to get involved in becoming workers for the harvest. We’ve got to own that. The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few, pray to the Lord of the harvest, so pray Warwick, how God can use you in the harvest. Gary, pray how God can use you in the harvest. Keep a KPI. How many people are you sharing your faith with and not getting to church. Church is where two or three will gather. We’ve got involved in trying to build the church. Jesus said, “I’ll build the church.” I think we need to be involved in kingdom, building kingdom companies, be involved in the kingdom, be involved in sharing our faith in the marketplace.
John S:
God’s shown me and it’s a talk for another time, but Sue and I started a group in our house just getting business people to come here, who wouldn’t go to church. 90% of people I’ve asked them to come to church, say no. If I invite them to come for dinner at home, 90% say yes. We just got them in our home and started sharing some of the Halftime principles, got a home theater, we put on a meal once a fortnight, bring in some food, eight o’clock we go down to the home theater. I’d talk a bit about Halftime, about leaving a legacy, making your life count, being generous. Then I’ve been using some of the videos like Alpha or other things and we’ve actually, after one year we saw six people give their life to Jesus and we were able to baptize them down the beach recently. My passion is business people to get involved in the great commission, not just passive spectators.
Warwick F:
Wow. Well, thank you so much, John. As we kind of begin to close, what’s sort of amazing to me is you look at the, maybe before the accident and John Smith moment, you were very competitive, driven by success. I think as you write. It wasn’t just about money, more than money, it was the thrill of the chase, the thrill of the competition that was driving you. You’re still driven, but yet I sense that you are more… you’re not working any less. You’re not any less driven than you were. I don’t know that you’re working any less hours, but you’re more fulfilled. You have a happier marriage, your kids, a stronger relationship than you’ve ever been because your life is in service of a higher purpose. It’s in service of your fundamental beliefs and values. Obviously we share a common Christian faith. There may be others who do, maybe others have different values or different concept of a higher purpose.
Warwick F:
When you link your life, your business, everything you do to a higher purpose, then that gives you more joy and fulfillment. We in Crucible Leadership talk about a life of significance, very similar to what you do, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Well, that’s what you do, living a life of significance, living in line of your values and in your case and my case, Christian faith, you have a level of joy and fulfillment that every day you wake up excited, every night if you’re having trouble going to sleep, it’s because you’re so excited about what God’s doing in your life. It’s not because of the old reasons. Does that make sense? I mean, is that sort of one way of summarizing where you are today?
John S:
I have got as much energy as I had at 40. I’m passionate. I’m just eternally… I’m so grateful that I was given a second chance Warwick. I could have lost it all. I had bad health, I could have been bankrupt, I could have lost my marriage, I could have lost my kids. I could have lost everything. I’m just so grateful that I didn’t.
Warwick F:
It was in a sense like that road to-
John S:
Pretty close.
Warwick F:
… Damascus moment or-
John S:
I felt I was at close to the edge of losing it all and it made me just really-
Warwick F:
There was one path that went down to misery and destruction and there was another path that went to redemption, joy and significance and you picked the road that led to joy, significance, stronger marriage, stronger relationships, stronger faith. It sounds like you picked the right road.
Gary S:
That is a great time gentlemen. I just heard the captain turn on the fasten seatbelt sign because it’s getting time to land the plane. In this particular case, the plane of course is a Qantas jet.
Warwick F:
Of course.
John S:
Oh, great…
Gary S:
I would be remiss, John. I would be remiss if I did not make good on my promise at the outset when I said that if you’re a CEO and would like to engage John as an executive business mentor and coach, and then I said, keep listening and you’ll find out how. How can our listeners find out more about you John and about Halftime Australia?
John S:
If you just Google halftimeaustralia.org.au, there are contact detail’s on there. Halftime Australia, it’s just halftime.org.au is the website and you can contact me through that.
Gary S:
Excellent. Warwick, final question?
Warwick F:
No. Just thank you so much for your example of really being dedicated to faith to God and just really following the calling in your heart that you were given at age 14. I mean, it’s amazing. God put that thought in you and maybe the embers kind of died down a little over the years, but never fully went out. That fateful moment of the car crash and that talk by the bikey guy, John Smith, that ember was fanned into flame and your purpose from then just went through the roof. It’s just a great example of somebody who can be successful and joyful. Success and significance is not either-or. You have accomplished both. You have modeled for other business leaders that you can have it all in the sense of it’s okay to be successful in business, but you can have joy and satisfaction and significance too. You’re really a great example of what’s possible.
John S:
One little thing is I never thought that Sue and I could become a team. We’re so different, but we are an amazing team. It’s just got better and better. I couldn’t believe it because I’m very fast paced, I change gears, I’m an ideas going everywhere, but it’s amazing how we got onto a vision that we both bought into, a purpose and we both know the roles where we fit and we help each other. We’ve become a real team like I did within the business, I found a really good business partner and I’m blown away. I never thought that was possible. Anyone who’s listening, don’t believe that you and your wife can’t become amazing team, even though you are not now. That can happen, but it will take a lot of work, but it’s possible using personality profiling, dying to self, working with your strengths, just looking at and finding out what each of your visions are and seeing the bridge you can build between them.
John S:
It’s amazing. I could not believe it. I would have rated us as a team at five out of 10, and we’re that close to 10 now, but it didn’t happen overnight. It took a little bit at a time. But anyway, so give hope, because for a lot of guys, that’s a huge problem. They think they can never team with their spouse. But it is possible, but you got to use… The view I took to Sue is I’ve got to coach and mentor her like she’s the most valuable, highest paid employee in my company. How do I help her succeed in that role?
Gary S:
That sound you heard listeners is the wheels on the ground. The plane has landed. I’ve been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word is spoken and when the last word is spoken about shared vision made reality, both personally and professionally for Crucible Leadership and Beyond The Crucible, that’s the place to land. I’ve also been in the communications business long enough though to know there are probably people who have been listening, who have heard as John was telling some of his stories and Warwick made mention of it too, these 13 things that John wrote down when he had an epiphany in his life and I’m going to leave you listeners with what those 13 things are. I’m going to preface my reading of John’s 13 things by saying something that Warwick alluded to a little bit ago, John is clearly passionately a Christian, Warwick, clearly passionately a Christian. I am passionately a Christian. Maybe it’s not as clear because I don’t talk on the show all that often, all that much.
Gary S:
But even if you’re not a Christian, the principles that John laid out in his 13 things to change, you can find application for your life. You’ll see some things in here that will talk about Bible and talk about Jesus, while we believe that is the best way to carry these things out, it’s not the only way. As Warwick talks about, there are anchors for your soul, anchors for your way of life that are rooted in something more eternal that you can find. Keep that in mind as I read these 13 things to change that John wrote down.
Gary S:
Number one, make myself available for community work. Number two, stop making decisions based on what I wanted, but make decisions in keeping with helping others succeed, which was his new purpose. Number three, begin to read the Bible personally like it was written just for him. Number four, make it a priority to spend time with my wife and children and friends. Number five, apply Christian principles to my business. Number six, be prepared to make a fool of myself for what I know to be right. That one’s good. I’m going to say it again. Number six, be prepared to make a fool of myself for what I know to be right.
Gary S:
Number seven, stop chasing success and pursue purpose instead. The crux of Crucible Leadership. Number eight, dream more and follow those dreams. Number nine, be kind to myself. Number 10, take more risks. Number 11, be honest about my weaknesses, and I love the second half of this. Part B of this, be honest about my weaknesses, part A and part B, and let other people cover those. Number 12, accept pain and make hard decisions. What we talk about on Beyond The Crucible all the time, from that pain and the decisions you make after that pain can spring forth your passion, your vision for your future. The last, number 13, the baker’s dozen as we call it here in the States. I don’t know if they call it there in Australia. Number 13, don’t be competitive just for the sake of winning.
Gary S:
13 ways to go about changing your life that can lead you down a road to a better way of life, a life on purpose for purpose. Until we are together, next time listener. Thank you for spending time with us on this episode of Beyond The Crucible. Warwick and I have a little favor to ask you. If you’ve enjoyed this conversation, if you’ve enjoyed previous conversations and have not yet clicked subscribe, we ask you to click subscribe on the podcast app on which you’re listening, share this episode with your friends and family so that they can also gather the hope and the healing that we hope comes out of these discussions with men like John Sikkema and women who we’ve talked to who have gone through crucible experiences and have emerged on the other side living more robust lives, focused on more important principles.
Gary S:
That’s the truth that we want to come through in every episode of Beyond The Crucible and that truth is this, that your crucible experience is painful, we know it. All three of us who’ve been part of this conversation have had very painful crucibles, but those crucibles were not the end of our story. It wasn’t the end of John’s story, for sure. It wasn’t the end of Warwick’s story for sure and it does not have to be the end of your story. Your crucible experience in fact can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story. Here’s the remarkable thing, it can be the best chapter yet. Because if you learn the lessons of the crucible and you apply them as you move forward, where that chapter leads is to a destination you couldn’t have imagined before the crucible and that destination is a life of significance.
How do you maintain the delicate balance between pursuing a vision that you are passionate about and treating well the men and women who are sharing that journey with you? Crucible Leadership founder and BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick Fairfax unpacks practical tips to follow in this conversation with co-host Gary Schneeberger. From keeping your ego in check … to focusing on the process, not on chasing an outcome … from making sure team members know you value them as much as you value your vision … to walking the talk so they believe it, they lay out a roadmap to both bouncing back from past crucibles and avoiding future ones.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick F:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
We’ve all heard people say, don’t take your eye off the ball, but here’s the truth, right? Sometimes you have to take your eye off the ball and put your eye on the ballplayers. You have to keep in mind that yeah, the ball, the vision, the game is important, but you need the ballplayers to get you the Victory. That friends can be a whole lot easier said than done. If that wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t be dedicating an entire podcast episode to the need to balance your vision as a leader, with caring for the team that helps you accomplish that vision. Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, your co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership.
Gary S:
Today Warwick and I talk through his most recent blog about just how you maintain that delicate balance between pursuing the values you hold most dear and treating well, the men and women who are sharing that journey to a life of significance with you. From keeping your ego in check to focusing on the process, not on chasing an outcome. From making sure team members know you value them as much as you value your vision to walking the talk, so they believe it. We lay out Warwick’s roadmap to both bouncing back from past crucibles and avoiding future ones.
Gary S:
Listener what we’re going to talk about today, this is one of those episodes if you have been listening for a while, we’re working, I don’t have a guest, it’s just the two of us knocking about with Crucible Leadership concepts. The idea behind this one is, and again, it’s always fun. I say it all the time what it happens. We’re not exactly sure what we’re going to call it. When we don’t know what we’re going to call it, it’s great because we’ll know what to call it when we’re done, but you already know what we called it before you clicked on it, because it’s done for you. It’s happening for us. This’ll be fun. This will be discovery for both of us.
Gary S:
We’re discovering what the show’s primary thrust is going to be in terms of what we’re going to name it. You already know that because you saw it when you clicked. But the idea behind it is that you need as a leader to balance your task, your vision, and the people who you have called to you to carry out that vision. There’s a balance required. If it’s out of alignment, not to get too personal, but I have a bad back. Sometimes my back’s out of alignment. That’s not good. If your vision and your relationship, your care of your relationship with your team is out of alignment, out of whack, it can because some problems. That’s what we’re going to walk through what the problems can be and then where we like to live in the solutions. That’s a fair summary of where we’re at. Right Warwick?
Warwick F:
Yeah, it is. Often we just think of visionaries that trying to get this grand cause accomplished. Sometimes what can happen is, you’re so focused on your vision, accomplishing your goals, that people can fall by the wayside. It’s often not because we intend to hurt anybody or ignore people. We just get really focused on the vision. The funny thing is that, the more passionate you are about the vision, the more you think that your vision really matters can help a lot of people. It’s almost the more dangerous the situation can be. Almost the more likely if you’re not careful of treading on people, ignoring them or hurting them, which is ironic.
Warwick F:
Because for some people you’re all about making the world a better place, but in the process, you can tread over people or crush them in the process. You don’t intend to, but it can happen. And so that’s really the core thought about this podcast.
Gary S:
And it’s interesting that we’re talking about vision, because what you just described can be a different kind of vision, which is tunnel vision. You can get tunnel vision sometimes as you pursue a vision. You can focus so much on the vision that you forget to put energy, effort, attention, affirmation, into the team that’s helping you carry out that vision. One of the things as we’ve talked about, what we’re going to cover here. One of the phrases that popped in my head, we’ve all heard people say, don’t take your eye off the ball, but here’s the truth, right? Sometimes you have to take your eye off the ball and put your eye on the ballplayers. You have to keep in mind that yeah, the ball, the vision, the game is important, but you need the ballplayers to get you the victory.
Warwick F:
Exactly. You do need both. The interesting thing is, you often think about in terms of the business and accomplishing goals and how a lot of these hard headed business men and women, they can run over their people as they try to achieve their objectives of 20% earnings increase over X amount of time. And that’s all true. One of the things I think about which we’ve, beginning to talk about is, if you’ve come out of a crucible and maybe you’ve had a personal tragedy, maybe an injury, professional crisis, maybe you have this vision that you don’t want anybody to go through what you went through, this vision that you feel like the world needs. It may be literally lives may depend on the success of your vision.
Warwick F:
Sometimes when you feel so strongly about things, you can be so focused on the vision in your words, tunnel vision, that you can ignore people on the way. You can be short with them. You can say, well, unless perfection is achieved, you need to get off the bus. You make one mistake you’re out, because lives depend on this, right? It could be literally lives depend on it. And so that’s where you can be so tunnel vision, so focused on the vision that I don’t know that it’s worse in a nonprofit, but it can be more tempting to justify your bullheadedness, your charge ahead, damn the torpedoes mentality and ignore people on the way.
Warwick F:
Ironically if you’re in some nonprofit, you would think you would care more about people and you should. But sometimes when you’re so caught up in the vision, that’s probably the main point. The more caught up you are in your vision, the more important you think it is, the more dangerous it is. The more if you’re not careful, the more tendency you might have to walk over people, it’s ironic and sad.
Gary S:
Right. Because right, if you’re in a nonprofit, you’re not doing it for the money by definition, it’s a nonprofit, you’re not doing it for profit and you’re doing it to help people. Right? The whole idea is we’re doing great work. Some people will say we’re doing God’s work if it’s a Christian nonprofit. Some people will say we’re doing great community work, whatever that is, because the mission that has such significance, to use a Crucible Leadership word. You can ironically, as you said, forget that you got to treat the people on your team right, while you’re taking care of the people that your nonprofit is serving.
Warwick F:
One of the things that I think we’re going to get into is, it’s not an either or position, it’s not people versus task, people versus mission, no matter how important the mission or vision is. It’s a both end. No mission or vision is so important that it is worth mistreating people, firing them unnecessarily, walking all over them. It’s just never worth it. Obviously as a person of faith, I think there’s a lot of scriptures on there. There’s a few, there’s one scripture really talks about basically zeal is good, but make sure it’s serving the Lord, which basically means zeal is good, but make sure you keep it in context and it’s not all about you, which we’ll also get into.
Warwick F:
Probably a favorite one of mine is, there is a scripture on Mark that says, “What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?” More broadly it’s, what good is it if we accomplish the mission at the expense of the team and treading all over them? To me it’s not worth it. And as we’ll get into, ironically, if you treat your team properly, you treasure your team, honor them, that you will have more chance of success, not less. And so it’s basically no vision, no mission is so important that it’s worth treading all over people. It’s just isn’t, and that’s at least my position, if you will.
Gary S:
It’s interesting that we framed this up in the beginning as a conversation about the balance between vision and team. There’s another balance that’s underneath that. I spent a lot of time before we started recording, poking around Harvard Business Review, trying to find some articles that support some of the stuff we’re talking about or talk about some of the stuff that we’re talking about. It’s very interesting, you say often Crucible Leadership makes a key point about the need for leaders to pursue a vision. It’s critical coming out of a crucible to have a vision that you can make reality and that to have a team to do that is also critical.
Gary S:
It’s also interesting that vision’s important to leaders, but vision’s also important to teams. Harvard Business Review did this fascinating study, an ongoing project, serving tens of thousands of working people around the world, and then asked them a simple question. What do you look for and admire in a leader? Not surprisingly they said honesty was number one. Number two was a sense that he or she is looking forward. Right? That’s all about a vision. Teams, right after honesty in leaders, teams, the people who work for you as a leader, they want you to be forward looking. The need to balance is for the health of both the team and the leader. That makes it really high stakes poker, if you will, doesn’t it?
Warwick F:
It does. Really you want to set a vision and as we’ll get into you want enfold your team in that vision. I think more and more people today, I think of Chris Tuff, who we had on the podcast who wrote the book, Millennial Whisperer. He said, millennials, they really, they want authenticity, they want vulnerability, but they also want to feel what they do matters. They want to do work that matters. Yes they want to get treated fairly and paid a competitive rate. It really is a both and. If you want to accomplish your vision, you’ve got to enfold the team. Yes, you want the right people on the bus with the right skills. They have to perform, work hard, that’s all a given. You want to honor your team, but it’s a mutual contract.
Warwick F:
They have to have the skills and the desire to make this vision happen. But bottom line it is a both and. It is task and people from really two main standpoints, the vision, what happened with, unless your team is on board and it’s my proposition that no vision is so worthwhile that it’s worth running all over people. That’s never a vision that’s worthy of accomplish. It certainly won’t help you lead a life of significance or as we talk about a legacy that you can be proud of. You don’t want that eulogy, Fred or Mary accomplished a great vision, but the body count was huge. You don’t want that to be your eulogy. Do you? Who would want that?
Gary S:
Right. They’ll be weeping at that eulogy, but it will be for a different reason.
Warwick F:
Right. Exactly.
Gary S:
I’ve just created Warwick. I’ve just created the first Crucible Leadership, Beyond the Crucible product, a bumper sticker, we can create. Vision needs a team and a team wants a vision.
Warwick F:
Absolutely. Amen. Absolutely.
Gary S:
Those two things go together. We can put that on the back of our cars and move along. All of this discussion, this has been preamble for a discussion on how you do that balancing work. How do you balance the task, the mission versus the people? This is a subject that you have written a blog about that either will be at crucibleleadership.com by the time this podcast comes out or will be there shortly. You can check at crucibleleadership.com to see if it’s up there. If it’s not up there, when you look right now, it will be up there soon. But you unpack in that blog, Warwick, seven ways to balance task and people. It’s not, as you said, an either or, it’s they’re altogether, how do you keep it in alignment so you don’t have the painful effects of someone with a bad back? Right?
Gary S:
That you’ve got an alignment so it’s all working out well. Your first point is perhaps the best one to start at, because if you don’t do this, the other six aren’t going to fall into place and that’s, value your team. Why is that so important as we look to balance mission and the team that’s carrying out that mission?
Warwick F:
Part of it is what we were just talking about in terms of legacy, is that no vision, no matter how important it is, is worth sacrificing your team. That’s really just a value judgment. Yes, as I’ve said, you want people that are a good fit, that work hard, that buy-in to the vision, and you want them all to be committed, but just saying victory at all costs, that’s just never a proposition that’s worthwhile. You have to ask yourself, well, what are your values? Is it really victory at all costs, no matter how many people you have to hurt? Very few people would say that. When you build your team, just think, well, what’s really important to you and just make this fundamental decision that I am going to value my team, as the saying goes, I’m going to treasure my employees. I want what they think matters. I want them to feel important.
Gary S:
Right. This idea of, and I didn’t pull any of these articles, but there’s lots of, it’s interesting that a publication like Harvard Business Review, which focuses a lot on research. They have a lot of research that I found this morning on not only how you show appreciation in the workplace as a leader, but why it’s so important. This idea of feeling valued. We all know what that’s like. We all know what it’s to not feel valued by leadership. And that can depress you in both senses of the word. It can make you sad and it can depress your energy and enthusiasm for the job. I’m going to do job description and get by if you don’t feel appreciated. But it can also, when you do feel appreciated, it lights a fire under you.
Gary S:
It’s not that traditional you’re in trouble connotation, right? We’re going to light a fire under that guy. No, it lights a fire under you in a positive way because of positive things that are occurring. That really is the starting pistol for what we’re talking about, is this idea of valuing your team. If you start there, if your team knows that you value them as much as you value the vision. And sometimes you show that you value them more than the vision, not long term necessarily, but there are times that you pause, let’s put a flag in the vision and let’s focus on the people. That leads into your second point that you’ve unpacked in the blog, is that it truly is the mission and your team. They are equal partners in your pursuit, right?
Warwick F:
It is. We had somebody on the podcast a little while ago, Bryan Price, who is a West Point graduate former army officer, and currently leads the Buccino Institute at Seton Hall University. He said in the military, they talk about mission first people always. And obviously in the military lives are literally at stake in terms of how well a mission is conducted in the enemy they’re against. And so it must be a both and. That’s almost the ultimate where lives are in the balance. The irony is, as I think we’ve been alluding to is, if you really care for your team, make sure they’re on board and they are heard, and they are listened to and they contribute to the process and have input into the vision.
Warwick F:
Which I think as we’ve also talked about before, that’s a very brave move to allow your team to have input into the vision. One of the analogies we talk about in the book, which will be coming out later.
Gary S:
There you go. Coming out when, the word?
Warwick F:
October.
Gary S:
And the book that Warwick referred to it was his book called Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance. Out on October 19th. Available where all fine books are sold and even some not so fine books, but Warwick’s is a fine book for sure.
Warwick F:
And so one of the stories we talk about in that book is in Florence, there’s the Michelangelo’s statue of David. And so the analogy we use in Crucible Leadership is when you have a team, you’ve got to be willing to give them the hammer and chisel and say, okay, I’d love your input. If you ask for input, you got to be willing to take at least some of it. And as we also often say, if it’s 80% of your vision with 100% buy-in, it’s better than 100% of your vision with 0% buy-in. And so ironically if you allow your team to contribute to the vision, they will be more bought in and your chance of your vision happening is much greater. And so when we talk about it’s not vision or team, it’s basically unless it’s vision and team, there’s no vision, the vision won’t happen.
Warwick F:
Even if you’re somebody that doesn’t care about people, and if you don’t, you probably shouldn’t be a leader. But if for some incredible reason, you’re a leader, well think of it from your own selfish self interested point of view, which is, if you want your vision to happen, you’ve got to get buy-in from your team. It makes business sense, mission sense. It makes sense in terms of values and honoring people. It just makes sense on every grid you can think of. That’s why I just love what Bryan Price said, it is indeed mission first, people always, it always has to be both.
Gary S:
Right. And if, as you said, when you first brought that up from Bryan, if that is a phrase, is a goal in the military where lives are literally at stake. And if it’s mission, first people always in that serious situation, how much more so when lives usually aren’t at stake in what we’re doing in our leadership. I am going to take a page from my journalism background and ask you a leading question now, which I think will be an on ramp into point three of how to balance task and people. And that is why Warwick do you think that many leaders, some leaders just aren’t that good in showing appreciation, bringing the team along, building a team to help carry out the vision? Why do you think that’s so hard for some leaders?
Warwick F:
I think at the root, it’s ego. Sometimes-
Gary S:
That’s the third point in the blog listeners.
Warwick F:
Exactly.
Gary S:
Check your ego. There you go.
Warwick F:
The E word, ego. Sometimes you have a vision and that’s maybe in the world, it’s a new invention. You see there’s a market made and it’s boy, you really in love with yourself. This piece of technology is going to revolutionize the market. You just feel this is my ticket to the big house, to the nice house, the boat, the lifestyle, all your dreams will be achieved. Even in the nonprofit world, maybe this thing you’re founding can provide clean water in parts of Africa that don’t have it. Maybe it’s a new low cost filtration system or something. It could be for-profit. It could be non-profit. But in either case, you can feel this is important and I’m pretty hot staff.
Warwick F:
Even when you don’t mean to mistreat people, when it’s all about you, we can end up getting short. We can maybe cut relational corners, we can get impatient. It’s like, these folks are letting me down. Maybe I need to cycle through a few dozen senior team members until I find somebody that doesn’t make a mistake, because it’s one strike and you’re out. Because this is too important either because this is going to make me tons of money and if we wait around the competitor might strike. We can’t afford people that only work 23 hours a day. It’s got to be 24 hours a day minimum and no mistakes. They have to say yes to every idea I have because after all I’m never wrong and they’re always wrong.
Warwick F:
Taken to its extreme, ego can be a huge problem of having both team and vision and ego, frankly unchecked can also prove the death knell with business. It’s ironic that when you think about small businesses that become successful, very often, they stall out at the small to medium category, because the founder has so much ego, which can be good for drive and the sense of getting stuff off the ground. But then they can’t bring in professional managers because typically the founder is an entrepreneur and entrepreneurs are rarely good general managers and general managers aren’t always good entrepreneurs. You can’t have all the gifts. Smart entrepreneurs say like, I’m still going to be the visionary.
Warwick F:
I’ll be out there promoting it, selling it, advocating it, but I’m going to leave somebody else to run it a day-to-day. Well, why doesn’t that happen more often? The ego gets in the way, it’s extremely common. Don’t let your ego get in the way.
Gary S:
There’s a great Harvard Business Review article that I found, the headline of which summarizes exactly what you’re saying. Ego is the enemy of good leadership and it lists, it says straight up that overcoming that, getting beyond that temptation to live in ego is as Harvard Business Review puts it, it requires selflessness, reflection and courage. They gave three tips. I want to read these three tips because they’re pretty short, but they’re good. How to help you overcome, A recognize if ego may be a problem and two overcome it. One, consider the perks and privileges you’re being offered in your role. Some of them enable you to do your job effectively, and that’s great, but some of them are simply perks to promote your status and power and ultimately ego.
Gary S:
Consider which of your privileges you can let go of. It could be that reserve parking spot, or it could be a special pass for the elevator. The second point, support, develop and work with people, you touched on this Warwick, who won’t feed your ego. Hire smart people with the confidence to speak up. The last one, I just love everything they say in this third tip on how to sidestep, overcome ego being a challenge for you. Humility and gratitude are the cornerstone of selflessness. Make a habit of taking a moment at the end of each day, to reflect on all the people who were part of making you successful on that day. This helps you develop a natural sense of humility by seeing how you are not the only cause of your success.
Gary S:
End the reflection by actively sending a message of gratitude to those people you identified. Practice those things, and it’s hard to blindly walk with ego being your driver. Isn’t it?
Warwick F:
It really is. It reminds me of a book by Jim Collins, which we also talk about in the book. Good to Great. He did a study based on a number of companies that had 15 years of, okay returns to the stock market followed by 15 years of fantastic returns. They were all driven leaders, but they were also humble. When you ask them keys to success, says well, I just have a great team. It’s almost like I just get out of the way and let my team do their thing. It’s not quite that simple, but they’re all humble. And so great leaders, they do check their ego at the door. They’re not afraid of hiring people that are better, quicker, smarter than they are. And why wouldn’t you be? If you’re all about success, why does it matter if your team is better than you?
Warwick F:
Ironically you can’t be good at all things. Maybe you have somebody that’s fantastic at marketing, sales, manufacturing, research and development. You can’t be the expert at all those things. Nobody can be, but in their field their bound to know more than you will. If they don’t, you’re probably hiring the wrong people in terms of their particular field of expertise. It just makes sense. Ego does get in the way of success. Ego tends to trample on people. I don’t know that people wake up in the morning saying, how many people am I going to chew out today? It’d be like, policeman don’t wake up saying, okay how many people can I give traffic ticket to today? Maybe they do. I’d like to think they don’t.
Gary S:
My dad was a cop, he did have quotas he had to hit, but I don’t know that I don’t know that he woke up thinking that.
Warwick F:
But you don’t want to think how many people can I fire today? It’s like, you’re fired, I just love that. Yeah, you’re fired. It’s like, really? That can’t be your attitude to life. Ego gets in the way of success. It makes poor business and organizational sense. So you definitely got to check your ego at the door if you want to be successful.
Gary S:
That’s point number three. Point number four logically follows off that. And that is focus on the process, not the outcome. And I say that logically follows from what we just discussed, because what we just discussed was the idea of the outcome could be, okay, I’ve got to fire you. I’ve got to hold you accountable. I’ve got to focus on the process, not the outcome. What were you thinking when you wrote that, Warwick?
Warwick F:
Really, it probably goes with ego. You can get so focused on your vision. So manic about it, that it’s got to succeed. It’s got to succeed immediately. Focus on the process might be as good to have a clear vision. It’s good to have a well thought out strategy and you want to have a great team, but you also want to take it a day at a time. You can’t control the results of what’s going to happen. Maybe the economy goes South, maybe the competition’s there, government regulation, there’s all sorts of things in life that can alter the outcome that you desire, the outcome that you want. If you have a good strategy, you have a good team, and really the issue is, what’s my goal for today, for next week, for next month?
Warwick F:
Typically to achieve anything great there’s a process and it can take forever, but don’t be so fixated on the result that you ignore the process, because if you ignore the day-to-day process, well the result and the outcome probably won’t happen. Stay in the now. Have a plan, have a strategy but stay in the now.
Gary S:
This is the moment of every podcast. It doesn’t happen on every podcast, but every podcast it happens on I love, because this is my chance to maybe embarrass you a little. By saying what you just said Warwick, in all honesty and seriousness, what you just said is a good description of what happened in your life after your takeover bid for the Family Media company failed. It was not an overnight process that led to that book that you held up. There was a lot of years, this was in 1990 when the failure took place and your process took a while. Is that fair?
Warwick F:
Yeah. Sometimes you don’t even know what the steps are like, as listeners know I got a job in a local aviation services company in Maryland doing business and financial analysis. Went to an executive coach that did mid career assessment, that said I had a good advisor, a reflective type that maybe being executive coach would be good. All these were way points, but I just, I didn’t quite know where it was going to end up, but I just followed the path. But even this book, this book is 12 years in the making literally. As listeners know, in 2008, the pastor of our church here wanted me to give a talk about basically what I went through and because it’s church, well, I felt God was teaching me through it. Somehow it resonated with people, weeks and months after, even though, I was the only ex media mogul in the church that day, but somehow it resonated.
Warwick F:
Well, okay. So then it took me a few years to write it, because imagine spending time writing about the most painful experiences in your life, in some cases, some of the most dumbest decision. After two or three hours a day, I was done, I needed to recover for the rest of the day before I went to the lion’s den. Let’s relive that pain again. But even once I’d written it, to get it published, chatted to some folks in Australia and for a variety of reasons, maybe it was too close or they wanted more sensational, it didn’t quite work out. Came over, was looking to get it published here.
Warwick F:
That was a whole process. It’s like, well, you need a brand. Okay. I guess, brought in some great brand branding people from, in Denver SIGNAL.csk and yourself from ROAR in terms of public relations and helping me fine tune the book. It was step after step after step. Even the most recent story just over this last year, we signed a book deal with Mount Tabor Media, and Morgan James, almost exactly a year ago, but then we had to condense the book a bit, maybe 20% or so. I had an editor assist me with that. And then you and I went through it page by page, refining it.
Gary S:
More than once, we went page by page several times.
Warwick F:
Oh yeah. And then it’s like, okay, great. Well then we need a book cover. We had somebody who was an expert in cover design and then interior layout, had somebody advise us on that. And then what images do we want? It’s just step after step after step after step. It almost seemed endless. But you just got to say, well, in this case, this mission, this book, this is too important to short circuit. Just the cover, we went through numerous versions to get the right one, and to get the back cover and to get the right quotes, which you, Gary helped with a lot just to help figure out which ones. Good things are worth doing well. And so don’t tread over people and don’t short circuit the process. If you short circuit the process out of impatience and I like to feel I’m actually pretty impatient, good things don’t happen.
Warwick F:
If you value the mission and the vision, follow the process, a step at a time. It’ll be annoying because each step will seem like it takes forever, but it’s worth it. It absolutely is worth it. You’ll have a better product, a better executed vision than if you don’t try to live in the now and live each day.
Gary S:
Right. And the way that you’ve worded this in the blog, and I’ll go back to the way I introduced it, focus on the process, not on the outcome. Let’s apply that. Let’s put that framework over the story that you just told about your own journey. If you at any point in the process leaped forward to the outcome, you wouldn’t hold in your hand what you hold in your hand, you’d hold something in your hand, but it wouldn’t be as good as that is, as focused as that is, as excellent as that is. I want the listener to really grasp this idea. You come out of a crucible, you have a vision, you’re moving to execute it. You have a team there. Take the time to be able to, Warwick says it a lot on this show. Almost every episode he’ll talk about what’s one small step you can take to do X, Y, or Z.
Gary S:
Focus on the process. Focus on those small steps. As Warwick just described, some of it was, hiring a branding firm. Some of it was hiring an editor to help him condense the book and rearrange the chapters a little bit. Any of those steps skipped or rushed would have affected the outcome. So focusing on the process not the outcome ensures a better outcome.
Warwick F:
Let me give you one specific example. Over the last year, one specific step. We went to Morgan James a year ago, the book was about a hundred thousand words, which is not terrible. But they said, look, our preference would be to have it, based on their experience, it’ll be a better book, a tighter book if we can get it somewhere around 80,000. Now, they said to me, we’ll publish as is. We like it. We think it’s good. But we found a good editor, but getting it to 80,000 was going to take, I don’t know, couple months, maybe it was more, I forget. It was somewhere around a couple months. Now I could have said, I’m not willing to wait, let’s just go.
Gary S:
Right. I’ve been waiting 12 years. I want to go now.
Warwick F:
They said, yes. Why not take the win? They said they were willing to publish it. But my attitude was, look, I grew up in newspapers, an 80,000 book is almost always better than a 100,000 book. You cut out the fat, the wastage, if you will. Why would I not want it to be a better book? If it takes a couple months and more rereading and more tinkering let’s do it. But that was a conscious decision. Don’t say yes to the 100,000 just because somebody’s going to say yes. But when they give you good advice and these are experts in their field and it’s like, it will be a better book if we can get it to 80. Thank you. Great. Let’s get it to 80.
Gary S:
Yup. You’re saying that in the context of the journey that will lead to in October, the publication of Crucible Leadership, the book, but it applies to any crucible anyone’s gone through as they build a vision to come back from that crucible and a team to carry it out. Focus on process, not the outcome, point four. That was point four. Point five, here’s another one that’s hard for leaders sometimes, be willing to apologize.
Warwick F:
Here’s the thing is, if you’re a passionate person about your vision and every visionary leader that I know is. If you’re not passionate about the vision, what in the heck are you doing? Just don’t do it. But you have to be passionate about your vision. And pretty much every visionary leader I know that is. Problem with passion is sometimes you get so passionate that you can get short with people. You can get impatient, and unwittingly you can start treading on people, causing problems. And so when that happens, you have to be willing to apologize. You’ve got to be willing to say, you know what, I messed up. I’m sorry. You’ve just got to be willing to do that, because I think your team is going to understand, they are passionate too. But inevitably you are going to make mistakes.
Warwick F:
You’re going to say things you shouldn’t say and accidentally tread on people. When that happens, apologize. We’re human, it will happen, it’s inevitable. Apologize and then you can move on. Don’t apologize and people might start leaving, especially if you do it too much.
Gary S:
Right. Going back to the first point that we talked about here, value your team. That’s one of the ways you show that you value your team, is apology. A real heartfelt apology, not what I call a Janet Jackson apology. If you remember during the Super Bowl a decade or so ago, Janet Jackson had her wardrobe malfunction. And she said, I’m sorry if anybody was offended. That isn’t an apology. She should have said, I’m sorry I did this. Not that.
Warwick F:
One of my pet peeves is the sorry if. Because sorry if means, I did nothing wrong and you’re just overly sensitive. I’m sorry if because you’re so sensitive and weak skinned that it hurt you. That’s almost worse than no apology. No sorry ifs. It never works. It’s salt in the wounds. It’s not a good idea.
Gary S:
And there’s no way to go through life without, we bump into each other in life, right? Figuratively and literally. We all are going to encounter situations where we have to apologize. My dad, I said earlier was a cop. My dad taught me this thing about car accidents. You’re always at fault in some way for a car accident. Even if your car is parked on us on the side of the road and somebody hits you, the cop will give you 3% of the fault because your car was parked there. In other words, it’s hard to go through life, and if you think you’re one of the people that can go through life with never making a mistake that needs an apology, sorry, you are as Fonzie would have said, not apologizing correctly on Happy Days, you are, wro, wro, wro, you’re wrong.
Gary S:
You will encounter situations where you have to apologize, do it, honestly do it with integrity and do it fully, not halfway and not falsely. The sixth point in your blog that we’ll talk about. You talk about recalibrating. After all these five other points have happened, what do you mean by recalibrate at that point?
Warwick F:
Sometimes it can be because you’ve just riden other people and you need to apologize. Sometimes it can be, you’re ego driven, you’re not following the process. You’re not consulting your team. What that means is, it can be you know what folks, I was so focused on the vision, I thought, man, if we don’t get to market soon, we’ll lose our opportunity. We need to get moving because this non profit, maybe it’s something will save lives in other countries. Whatever it is you need to say, not only I’m sorry, but here’s what we’re going to do different. I’m going to consult you more. I want your input more. I want you to feel heard. We talk about creating safe places, well you want to create safe places where people can really feel that they’re valued and their input is important.
Warwick F:
It’s one thing to apologize. But as we’ll get into the final point is, you’ve got to recalibrate and let people know that things will be different and then tell them what is going to be different. That’s absolutely key.
Gary S:
The last point, point seven. The perfect number seven. Point seven is, walk the talk. On all of these things, if you added them all up, as you see them on the blog, when you go to crucibleleadership.com and you see the blog on this subject listener, take those first six steps, add them all up, at the end of the day, step seven is the linchpin. Step seven is the coda. Step seven is the glue that holds it all together. Walk the talk. Unpack that a little bit.
Warwick F:
Yeah, absolutely. Some people feel like leadership is about great speeches. They give the one big, great speech and they expect life to change. Well, it’s not. It’s about living it out day-to-day. You’ve got to live your message. And so if you talk about, you know what, we’re going to do it differently. I want to hear your opinions. I want to make sure, maybe it’s not consensus, but I definitely want to hear your input. Somebody comes into your office and say, hey, look, boss, I just have this idea. I’m actually, I’m busy now, come back tomorrow. They come back tomorrow and you’re still busy. Or they offer an idea, and every single time they offer an idea. In fact, every single time, anybody in your team offers an idea over the next three months, it’s always no, but then you keep saying I’m open to your opinions.
Warwick F:
It just, as soon as one of you knuckleheads has an opinion worth listening to, I’ll listen to it. Until then, until you are able to find a brain and a clue, of course, I’m going to ignore you. In fact, I’m close to firing you. But as I said, I treasure my employees and your opinion matters. You’ve got to walk the talk. You’ve got to be able to listen to them. And really one of the final things we talk about in the blog, in that point is, you’ve got to trust the process and you’ve got to trust the outcome. Don’t be so focused on the outcome, that I want to achieve X goals for my business, for my nonprofit. It’s good to have goals and strategies, but sometimes plans change whether it’s the market, the economy or people’s needs change.
Warwick F:
And that’s okay. You’ve got to trust to, whether you’re a person of faith, whether that’s God, fate or the universe, what have you, that if you put your maximum effort in, you feel you’ve got a good plan and a good team. You’ve got to trust the process and trust whatever the outcome happens, because you can’t control the outcome. You can control your effort and your plans and the process and your team, but the precise outcome is not guaranteed. Good things do tend to happen if you’ve got a good team, a good plan and you thought it through, but don’t get so fixated on the outcome, trust the process, trust the team. That is a much better way to go.
Gary S:
The outcome, to say it takes care of itself is a bit of a misnomer because you’re following these seven steps. You’re going back to that initial Harvard Business Review story, I said of what employees want to see in leaders. The first thing was honesty, right? In addition to a vision. You put all those things together and that helps shape the outcome. The outcome doesn’t necessarily take care of itself, your steps, your one small steps that you talk about, your trust the process, the stones in the road as you walk that journey to get your vision into reality, as you walk that journey to take your vision for a book to reality, that helps shape the outcome. If you do it with consistency, if you do it with honesty, if you do it with humility, it leads to a better outcome. Doesn’t it?
Warwick F:
Well, it does. It leads to a legacy that you can be proud of. One thing we talked a bit about beforehand and just been thinking about is, John Fairfax’s legacy. That’s an interesting thing.
Gary S:
John Fairfax, just so we can set it right. John Fairfax is your great, great grandfather. John Fairfax founded the company that was John Fairfax Limited and then became Fairfax Media and had some other names. That’s the company that you launched the take over for that was unsuccessful.
Warwick F:
Indeed, the large 150 year old family media company. He was a person of faith. He was a great businessman, a great husband, a great dad, but there are some things that his employees said about him after he died. But before I get to that, I just want to give you an idea of, just a short story of why he was so beloved by his family and absolutely his employees. In 1841, not that long after he bought the company, Australia got into a huge depression. A lot of prices of commodities were down. A lot of people were laid off. And so while he tried to raise revenue, he told people that he would have to lower the wages of his employees. Now, obviously, in the middle of a depression, they weren’t happy. He basically told them, I have nothing but sympathy for what you’ve gone through.
Warwick F:
The price of bread and board is rising and there are mouths to feed at home. We wouldn’t suggest this under normal times, but these aren’t normal times. Unless we drain, unless we cut costs, both your job and ours will be in great danger. We believe the Sydney Morning Herald can grow and strong. It’d be a great paper and you’ll be proud to be back then, a Herald man. If you accept my proposal, I know in a short while, the depression, we’ll get past this. You’ll have a job and we’ll all do well. He was going to pull out wages pro-rata. It wasn’t like, that the owner gets everything. Basically he said, this is the only way we can weather the storm.
Warwick F:
They thought about it and they agreed. While a lot of other folks who are out of work, they still had jobs, a job is better than no job. And so what is the result of all of this? When he died in 1877, they praised his conscientious desire at the realization of a high ideal. They said that, we feel in his departure, we have lost a kind employer and a valued friend. How many employees say about their boss that he or she was a kind employer and a valued friend? It’s extremely rare. And just in terms of his legacy, picture this, if this was at your funeral. At the church he went to, Pitt Street Congregational Church.
Warwick F:
The pastor chose this text from 2 Samuel, in the King James it goes, Know ye not that there is a prince and a great man fallen this day in Israel? Wouldn’t you like that to be your legacy? Know that today that there was a great man, a great woman this day who has died. If somebody who’s a pastor is going to say that about you in church, they’re probably not going to define being a great man, a woman as how much money you’ve earned or how many titles you have or accolades, it’s probably going to be more because of your character. When I think about somebody being vision and team, the company grew to be 150 year old huge company, but he treated his employees well, and the company grew. It is both end and I think John Fairfax’s legacy is emblematic of really what we’re talking about here.
Gary S:
Not just as an emblematic, but it’s a roadmap. The story that you just told is a roadmap of everything that we’ve just discussed. I want to suggest listener that after I read what I’m about to read, I go through it, you rewind the podcast and listen and see if I’m not right. Because I believe that story that you just told about your great-great-grandfather encompasses all seven points that we’ve just been talking about. One, value your team, John Fairfax did. Two, it’s the mission and your team, right? He kept the team in mind, as well as the mission of having the greatest newspaper that he could have. Check your ego. There’s not a lot of ego in a leader who doesn’t take all the money for himself in hard times, he gives that money. He’s one of the team. He doesn’t put himself above the team.
Gary S:
Focus on the process, not the outcome, that whole letter that you described, he wrote to the team about, we have to take a cut in wages, that is process, not outcome. He suggested an outcome, but he emphasized process was going to get them there. Be willing to apologize, there may not be an apology per se in the midst of what he said, but he certainly, in some ways was apologetic about the fact that he had to cut their-
Warwick F:
He was certainly showing empathy.
Gary S:
Correct. Correct. His demeanor was empathetic and apologetic and I wish I didn’t have to do this. Number six, recalibrate, talk to the team and let them know that moving forward, it must be the vision and the team. He did that in that letter. Seven, I’ve heard you say it Warwick a dozen times, if I’ve heard you say it once, rarely, never have you seen more a businessman for Christ than John Fairfax. John Fairfax, walked the talk. What you just explained in that story emphasized that.
Warwick F:
The other thing since you mentioned that is, on his 50th birthday, his family gave him this huge silver centerpiece, which is still in the family. I’m sure they had to order it from England. They just basically, they admired and loved their dad so much. So sometimes these visionaries they ignore their families on the way up. The vision is so important. He did not. When they talk about the deep respect they, his children had for his character and his unchanging parental love. Talked about affection and esteem, John’s reply was, “Your gift is elegant and costly. Your letter is precious.” The gift was nice, but what mattered more than the gift was the love of his kids. That’s a life well lived when you can receive that kind of love and affection from your family. Doesn’t often happen for successful businessmen and women.
Gary S:
Right. And that’s a businessman who knew the value of balancing vision and mission with team and knew how to carry that out. To help listeners know where to move next. One of the things that you do in every blog you write, is that the end, you have questions for reflection. I thought we’d leave listeners this week with what I thought was a great first suggestion that goes in line with what you say all the time about, what’s one small step you can take? You say the first reflection question in your blog is, assess the state of your team. Are they committed to the vision and eager for the journey ahead? Or do they seem disheartened and ready to check out?
Gary S:
You talk also in the book, Crucible Leadership, out October 19th, you talk in the book about doing 360 evaluations and asking people who work for you, how you’re doing. Talk to the listener a little bit about if they take this first step, why is it important to assess where the team’s at and then move forward?
Warwick F:
Well, you certainly got to check your ego at the door. You’ve got to be willing to ask, what do you think of the vision? Well, you ask that question, they might say, well, I think it’s dumb. But you got to be willing to ask that. How do you feel about it? How do you feel your role is? Are you excited about it? They might say, I don’t know. It depends how much damage you’ve done, it might take a while to create a place where they feel it’s safe to be heard. But certainly 360s can be part of that. The wise leader, and 360 is basically meaning the people above you, people who are your peers and people who are below you. And so depending on where you are in the management chain, the smart leaders listen to that.
Warwick F:
Because if everybody around you says, Joe or Mary, they’re impatient, impulsive, and don’t know how to listen, they could all be wrong, but they’re probably not. Perception is reality. If everybody around you has a certain perception, the wise leader says it must be right, no matter what I think. Perception is reality. If everybody thinks I’m this hot headed person that never listens, I probably am. So then try and figure out what you can do different. This can definitely work if you’re willing to be humble enough to listen and really listen. And that can be a challenge frankly for many leaders. 360 degree feedback is useless if a leader will say, I know who that is. They never liked me. Even though it’s meant to be anonymous, I’ve seen that. It’s very discouraging. Assess the state of your team, but check that your ego at the door before you do that.
Gary S:
And that I’ve learned through decades in the communication businesses, when the plane lands and the final word has been spoken on a subject. Listener, thank you for spending time with us on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. As always Warwick and I would ask, visit crucibleleadership.com, poke around. There’s some great resources there. You can learn more about the book there when you go visit. I’m going to put that stake in the ground and say, that’s going to be already up on the website by the time this podcast comes out. If I’m wrong, it’ll be there soon, but I don’t think I’ll be wrong. I think it will be there for you. Remember until the next time that we’re together listener, a crucible experience can be painful. We know it is painful. Warwick has gone through them.
Gary S:
He’s talked about them often. I’ve gone through them. You’ve gone through them. Your failures and setbacks can be soul crushing in some cases, very painful. But remember this, your crucible experiences are not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons from them, if you apply those lessons moving forward, one step at a time. If you take that view of not the destination right now, but the journey. If you walk that journey with the lessons you learned from your crucible, the chapter that you’re writing can be the most rewarding and memorable chapter of your life, because where it leads you is to a life of significance.
