Sometimes life can feel like the 1993 movie Groundhog Day, starring Bill Murray and Andie MacDowell, in which Murray lives the same day over and over again.  No matter what he does he cannot seem to get out of this repeating time loop.  Sometimes our identity is like this.  We might see ourselves as a 16- or 17-year-old teenager.  We may be older, but our identity seems to be frozen in time from those high school years.  We might have grown as a person and achieved success academically and professionally, yet we still see ourselves as that awkward, insecure teenager in high school.

If we go through crucible experiences, pain and trauma that fundamentally alters the course of our lives, that also has a tendency to lock in our identity.  We see ourselves as that person who made that horrendous mistake or who suffered that unspeakable tragedy.  We feel full of guilt, or perhaps what was done to us makes us feel worthless, fragile and completely disempowered.

This sense of frozen identity, which very often is a false identity, holds us back from being who we truly are.  It also holds us back from being the light that our world sorely needs.  If you feel bad about yourself and feel worthless, how will you have the desire or the energy to care for others?  You will tend to feel that you are incapable of helping anyone or doing any good.  The world would be better off, you might think, if you never existed.  Like lepers in the Bible, you can see yourself as “unclean” and feel people should stay away from you.  Being near others will only lead to them getting hurt.

So how do you get out of this cycle of frozen identity, be it from high school challenges or from a crucible experience?  How can you free yourself from the prison of this negative perception of yourself, so you can contribute to the world and to others?

1. Your Life Matters.

The starting point is to realize that your life matters and that the world needs your gifting and your talents.  Wallowing in self-pity, recrimination and resignation will not only be bad for yourself, it will be bad for others.  Negative self-talk will inevitably be manifested in how you treat friends and family and co-workers.

2. You are Loved.

I believe all humans are loved by God.  My faith teaches us that as humans we have intrinsic worth and value.  Many of us have at least one person who loves us because of who we are, in spite of our foibles.  Some have friends, family and co-workers who are actually cheering for us.  They wonder when we will see how special and valuable, we are.  When will we see ourselves the way others see us?

3. The World Needs Us.

I believe we are all special and unique, with a combination of unique gifts and talents. The world needs what we have to offer.

4. Deal with the Lie.

Many faith perspectives teach that there are forces of light and darkness.  So, from that viewpoint, we might have negative feelings that say we are worthless, that we’ll never amount to anything or even that we never should have been born.  Don’t listen to the lie.  Don’t believe the lie.  This is where some digging and some hard work may be needed.  For some, counseling can be very helpful to get in touch with why we feel badly about ourselves. Counseling can help us understand why our self-image is trapped in our former teenage selves or locked into the bottom of the pit during the lowest moment of our crucible experience.  Friends and family and even co-workers can help us gain a true perspective of who we are as well.

5. Forgive Yourself and Forgive Others.

If you view your crucible experience or whatever is holding you back as your fault, the first step is to forgive yourself.  This may also involve asking for the forgiveness of others who you may have hurt.  Sometimes, others have hurt us perhaps profoundly.  A key part of healing and moving on from your crucible if others have hurt you is to forgive them.  This is not so much because they deserve it, but because you deserve it.  Bitterness and anger are like poison which stops you being whole and moving on.

6. Broken and Beautiful.

We as humans are not perfect, and sometimes we may feel we are broken.  Like a broken vase, we may feel that we have many imperfections.  Yet in our brokenness there can be beauty.  People who move beyond their crucible experiences often use their pain and their brokenness to help others.  Cancer survivors help others with cancer.  Those who have suffered abuse help others who have been through abuse.  In helping others, we use our brokenness to be a light to the world, providing healing to others; and in the process help to heal ourselves.  Our pain has meaning now.  We have a mission.  We have a calling.  We have a reason to get out of bed in the morning.

7. Our Mission.

Using our lives, even the broken parts, to lead lives of significance, lives on purpose dedicated to serving others, gives us meaning and purpose.  It can also lead to the rewiring of our brains.  Negative self-talk can be very powerful.  But when we use all of who we are to help others, we begin to get feedback that is out of tune with the lie.  We get feedback from those we help, as well as friends, family and co-workers that we have value.  We are doing something good to help people.  Drip by drip, this positive feedback and the evidence we see about who we really are and how we are helping people can slowly change our identity.

Changing our identity, which may be frozen in time, is not easy.  But as we begin to accept ourselves as broken and beautiful; as we forgive ourselves and others; as we begin to use all of who we are, even our brokenness, to help others; we begin to change.  Our fixed negative identity, the lie that we are worthless and should never have been born, begins to change.  The ice melts.

We begin to see ourselves as loved by the creator and the universe.  We begin to see ourselves as loved by our friends, family and co-workers.  We begin to see ourselves as having a mission and a purpose that will help others and that the world needs.  We do indeed see ourselves as broken and beautiful.  We look at ourselves in the mirror as, yes, having imperfections, but as also having incredible worth.  We might even begin to like who we see.

Reflection

Order Crucible Leadership here

Jeff Caliguire thought he was a victim when the vocational path he chose as a pastor left him lonely, depressed and lacking authentic friendships. It wasn’t until he hit emotional bottom that he found his way forward, through finding the blessings in even challenging circumstances and allowing them to transform his thinking. Today, he’s a life and leadership coach offering clients a safe space to express their doubts and frustrations about life’s inevitable challenges and work on the care of their souls through finding gratitude even in difficulty. That’s the pathway, he has discovered, to a life of significance for all of us – a life in which, as he puts it, we find our deep gladness and apply it to the world’s deep need.

To learn more about Jeff Caliguire, visit www.jeffcaliguire.com

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Jeff C:

I would end up dumping on my wife things that almost like she would carry. And what I didn't realize is I was almost creating this germ inside of her through my negativity and my complaining and my victimness. When we think of the hero, the hero is able to take what's happened to them and overcome it. I started to play the victim and I started to believe I was cursed, that somehow all these terrible things that were happening to me, and these people who didn't understand me were making me cursed. And it's when we get to the place where we're playing a victim, especially in leadership, that poor me, things have happened bad, that's where we are needing something new. We need a breakthrough. We need new hope.

Gary S:

Hero or victim? How are you seeing yourself these days? This week's guest, author and leadership coach Jeff Caliguire, just explained how he's lived thinking he was the latter. Now, he and Warwick talk in depth about what it took him and what it takes all of us to live and lead as the former. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Caliguire says the key to moving from victim to hero in the aftermath of a crucible is gratitude.

Gary S:

Finding the blessings in even challenging circumstances and allowing them to transform your thinking. Helping clients navigate that journey and giving them a safe space to express their doubts and frustrations along the way is the focus of the coaching he offers leaders. It's also, he says, the pathway to a life of significance for all of us, a life in which, as he puts it, we find our deep gladness and apply it to the world's deep need.

Warwick F:

Jeff, thanks so much for being here. And I love what you do with We Train Coaches and your concept about transformation through coaching. But I'd like to go back a bit, as we often say here on Beyond the Crucible, to get a bit of the origin story of how you grew up. I think you mentioned before, you grew up maybe in the New York area, and your dad maybe was a business owner, chief executive of a paper company.

Warwick F:

So, talk about growing up in New York and maybe family expectations. And obviously, as listeners know I have some understanding of the whole growing up in a family business deal, growing up in a large family media business in Australia. So, yeah, just talk about growing up and expectations and what's the path you thought you were on or maybe your parents or your dad was thinking you should be on perhaps.

Jeff C:

Yeah, my dad was a guy who grew up in the Great Depression, actually sold newspapers on the streets of Boston. He truly was, I mean, if there's ever a self-made man, I know we're all made in a lot of ways by each other. But my dad was somebody who was single mom, alcoholic dad. And he went into business in New York, started out just selling, eventually was able to buy the company. And I don't think I realized how amazing my dad was until later. I went through my own leadership issues and started to think, "Wow, my dad actually knew something." You know how you think your dad doesn't know much. But I was the youngest of three sons, and my dad really had hoped that one of his sons was going to go into the family business. And so, there was this unspoken pressure, and I worked there during the summers in New York. You get to go into the family business. And I just didn't say this to my dad was, "Do I really want to go into the family business? Is this something for me? I mean, I didn't come from the Great Depression. My life was a lot different." So, it's that unwritten, unspoken expectation that made me go, "Okay, then what if I don't go into the family business?"

Warwick F:

Yeah, boy, I know it so well. So, when you say a paper business, just out of curiosity, what kind of paper? Was it newsprint? What kind of paper product was it?

Jeff C:

And most people will get it instantly when I say think The Office.

Gary S:

Okay. Dunder Mifflin.

Jeff C:

It was Dunder Mifflin, instead it was called Willman and it was in New York City. We sold paper to printers and publishers, big rolls. My dad was an amazing salesperson, sold to American Express, Time Warner, and just had amazing success in the Dunder Mifflin type of business.

Warwick F:

Well, and you use the phrase, this unspoken expectation. I mean, I can so identify with it. As listeners know, I grew up in a fifth generation family business. My dad inherited as his grandfather did. As listeners know, my dad was married three times, my mom twice. And because I got good grades in school, I worked hard, and the expectations rose. I was the "good son." I wasn't the prodigal son, if you will, that went away and was rebellious.

Warwick F:

So, he never said, "Well, have you thought about if you're going with the family business?" The question was never asked. It was obviously expected that I would prepare myself, Oxford, Wall Street, Harvard Business School it was. And if I didn't go into it, I felt like it would have just crushed him. So, I maybe took the not so wise path. You probably had enough wisdom, courage or something to say, "I don't know that I want to do this."

Warwick F:

I wasn't even willing to go there. I don't know, five generations. I don't know what it was. But how did you go there, because you went where I didn't and couldn't. So, how did you have the courage? Did you have a conversation with your dad? I mean, how did that come up, that kind of "Dad, my brothers aren't going to do it and I guess you're hoping me as the youngest might, and I'm just not." I mean, what kind of conversation was that?

Jeff C:

My dad was somebody who I think didn't want to put pressure on me. But at the same time, I could tell when I started going in a different direction, there was a disappointment. But because I'd worked there during the summers, I got to know what it really was like and I didn't have any false expectations of what it would be like to lead that business or be in that business. And I would have people who would take me out to lunch, some older people who are part of the business and they'd say, "Do you realize the kind of opportunity that you have?"

Jeff C:

And so, there was this little bit of guilt that I had. I have this opportunity and yet, I'm not excited about it. And a question I think a lot of people who've been in family businesses go through is, all right, I can do anything I want to do with my life, but I really should go into the family business. And so, there's this tension of I can do anything but I'm meant for something else. And so, then when I felt like, "Hey, dad, what if I went to seminary? I'm considering that."

Jeff C:

I could tell he just dropped. He wasn't going to say, "Don't do that," because it was a God thing to do. But at the same time, I hated disappointing my dad. I loved my dad. So, I think there was this disappointment but at the same time, this acceptance. And I remember having lunch with him and telling him I'd like to go to seminary and him not saying much. He didn't affirm it, but he didn't tell me I shouldn't do it either.

Warwick F:

Now, obviously, you're a person of faith. Was your dad and family people of faith?

Jeff C:

Yes, definitely, definitely was. I saw faith in my dad. My dad would be the guy who was before he put his suit on, would get down on his knees at the side of his bed and pray before he started the day and when he ended the day, which marked me. I mean, I definitely saw that. But I think what happens with a lot of people is, I can almost use big word like bifurcate. You have life and you have business, and the two don't always intersect.

Jeff C:

And my dad was a man of character and very moral, but I don't feel like no one ever prayed with him about his business. And I didn't feel like he had spiritual mentors in his business that understood him. So, I think there was a loneliness. It's like I know this faith thing is supposed to be integrated in business, but it's not. And so, I do think there was a separation.

Warwick F:

Somehow, you must have felt peace that your path was to go to seminary. Did you feel like that still small voice that, with all the pros and cons, I just know what the Lord wants me to do. Did you feel that in a sense?

Jeff C:

Man, it would sound so spiritual Warwick if I just said sure. I think I was more confused. My own time in college, I did have a spiritual awakening and I did start to recognize I can have a spiritual influence and impact on people. Especially I was in an Ivy League school, and people had a lot of questions about spiritual things, and I loved being a bridge to that. But if I said, "Boy, there was this clear calling, go to seminary, all the rest," it was more I wanted to do something meaningful with my life.

Jeff C:

And in retrospect, my dad was doing something meaningful. I've come to believe that sometimes we think it was more meaningful to go to seminary than it was to be a president of a company or be in the company. I think, for me, one of the things that was like missing in a lot of my growing up was, how do you process what you're really meant to do, what you're gifted to do, what the opportunities are open. Frederick Buechner said, "The place where God calls is the place where your deep gladness meets the world's deep need."

Jeff C:

And I think a lot of us haven't taken the time to know where is my deep gladness? Where is the need? And then, how do I bridge that? And so, I think seminary for me was a way to almost avoid making the decision. It took me longer to really find my deep gladness and to connect that to the world's deep need. And I think there's a lot of peace when that happens. So, I mean, I wish I could say I love studying Greek and Hebrew and theology, but I actually didn't. There were some people who did, and they were meant for that. And so, it took me longer to really find what I was meant to do.

Warwick F:

Yeah. And we'll get into what you do now in a bit. But I think it's often interesting, and I ask the same questions at myself. I mean, we're both international coach, federation certified coaches. If a coach had asked me back then as I asked you, because I became a believer when I was at Oxford. So, around about the time I was getting to the family business, you could have asked me, "So, what do you think God's heart is? What's your gifting?"

Warwick F:

"What are you passionate about? How do you think God could use it?" Really, in similar sense that you're saying and I don't know how I would answer that. I think I probably would have been too stubborn and too, in my case, the family business was founded by as strong a businessman for Christ as exists. So, that made it seem clear to me what God's plan was. Surely, he wants another believer in the family business, right?

Warwick F:

And the faith has been waned a bit over the generations. But yeah, I mean, if you had had somebody like yourself ask a 20-something, Jeff Caliguire, so what do you love doing and what do you think the Lord wants and ask those great questions, it's unknowable how you would have responded, right? But it would have been nice to have that opportunity. I'm sure you've asked yourself those questions, right?

Jeff C:

Well, and sometimes it's your deep pain that leads to your passion. So, I mean, I had a deep pain that I didn't have those safe people in my life. One question I like asking in coaching is, "Hey, what bugs you that doesn't seem to bug other people?" And what bugs me is that there weren't people...I mean, there's a mentor of mine who said, "Hey, we figured out how to send a man to the moon but we can't figure out how to help an 18-year-old figure out what they should major in, in college or what career they should go into."

Jeff C:

And so, it bugs me that there weren't people who could help me in that way. I wish I had a safe person or people who could allow me to process, and it usually doesn't come in one question or one afternoon. But I feel like if there could be people who majored in helping people discover their major or who majored in helping people discover a career trajectory that can bring together both their experiences, with their strengths, with their gifts, and have no horse in the race. Because my dad was amazing, but he had a horse in the race. You know what I mean? He wanted me in the business. And so, just having people like that, I think, can open up so many good things. So, I guess I would just ask our listener, what bugs you that doesn't seem to bug other people? Could there be a clue there?

Warwick F:

That's an awesome question. So, let's move the story along here a little bit. So, you obviously had some experiences at Cornell, fraternities and other ministries in different groups. You go to Dallas Theological Seminary and then you start a church in Boston. And if you go to Dallas Theological Seminary, it's logical that you want to become a pastor because that's why you go there, at least in most cases.

Warwick F:

So, you start a church and in theory, that sounds like what could be wrong with that, right? You're a believer, you start a church. But yet, that path was not easy and I think it led to some crucible moments. Talk a bit about starting that church and why that wasn't easy and that led to some soul searching.

Jeff C:

There are certain things that you feel like education can't equip you for. And some of the education that I didn't feel equipped for was the loneliness of leadership and also overcoming rejection that comes in pastoral leadership. I think people look to a pastor to have all the answers to have it together. And I remember being in a Bible study one time and sharing about some struggles in my marriage.

Jeff C:

And I got a call the next day from a guy in the Bible study who said, "I'm going to leave the church." And I said, "How come?" He goes, "Because you're struggling in your marriage." And I'm like, "What?" And he's like, "I don't want to have my pastor be someone who's struggling in their marriage." And what I realized was, you want to be, especially when you're in ministry and leadership, you want to be authentic but people want you to, in some ways, be better than you are.

Jeff C:

And what I started to see and started to beat myself with, Warwick, was I started to realize I wasn't as good as I wanted to be or they wanted me to be, and that was really lonely. And so, I'd wake up in the middle of the nights and I couldn't sleep because I'd be angry at myself, I'd be disappointed with others. And I stopped sleeping through the night. I would probably end up getting three or four hours of sleep and then I was tired.

Jeff C:

And I was going through what, in retrospect, was burnout because I was working hard. But I started to feel like I'm a failure, I'm not who people want me to be. I'm really not as spiritual as I want them to think I am. And now, there's this gap between what I'm wanting and what I am and that created a crucible season in my life, where something needed to change.

Warwick F:

The sad thing is pastors are humans, and they have challenges in their lives and marriages and kids like anybody else but yeah, you're not allowed to that. I mean, that must create enormous stress in that I want to model authenticity but they don't want that. They want me to model perfection and Mr. Super-spiritual Superman is what they want, right?

Jeff C:

And again, what I felt like was lacking was the safe place to really share what was going on and come back to hope. And I would end up dumping on my wife things that almost like she would carry. And what I didn't realize is I was almost creating this germ inside of her through my negativity and my complaining and my victimness. When we think of the hero, the hero is able to take what's happened to them and overcome it. I started to play the victim and I started to believe I was cursed, that somehow all these terrible things that were happening to me, and these people who didn't understand me were making me cursed. And it's when we get to the place where we're playing a victim, especially in leadership, that poor me, things have happened bad, that's where we are needing something new. We need a breakthrough. We need new hope. And so, that's where I was in my leadership.

Warwick F:

I mean, anybody that's a pastor or even a business executive, a CEO, VP, they can relate to your story. They've been there. It's like, "I can't tell my boss I don't know what I'm doing. I can't tell my boss I'm thinking of quitting." I mean, really? That's not a conversation you can have. That's not a safe place at all. So, does that make sense?

Jeff C:

Yeah. I had two experiences that woke me up to this. One was where I was, for the first time, meeting a CEO of a Fortune 500 corporation in beautiful big office overlooking Boston. And we started to talk and share and I think I was a little bit vulnerable with him. And he said, "Hey, could you close the door?" And I said, "Sure." I got up, closed the door. I sat back down. He goes, "I need to tell somebody this and I haven't able to tell anybody this."

Jeff C:

He said, "I've been having an affair for the last six months and it's eating me alive." And I realized that here I was this young guy, totally new, and I was somebody he was telling someone as vulnerable as that. The second thing that happened was, a number of years later, there was a guy who had been the CEO of another major corporation and he was retiring, very famous CEO, a man of faith. And we had a question and answer time.

Jeff C:

He was talking to pastors and business leaders, and we did a gathering with him. And I asked a question at the end, I said, "Hey, if you were to do your business over again, what would you do differently," because he just retired. He looked down and then he looked up and tears were streaming down his face. He said, "I'd had a friend." I said, "What do you mean?" He goes, "I had nobody who I could share with. I had people on my board."

Jeff C:

"I had people who are nonprofits who wanted money from me. I had people who worked for me, but I didn't have anybody who I could share the real stuff with." And that was a calling moment for me because I realized that's what my dad didn't have. He didn't have anyone in his life who he could share the real stuff with and so I think that's why he bifurcated his life and his business. And that was when for me, I was like, "I want to be that."

Jeff C:

"I want to be that for leaders, and I want to help raise up other people who can be that for leaders." Because that can change the story and change the story for them in their emotions, change the story in their relationships or in their moral issues.

Warwick F:

That's such a powerful point you just made. You wanted to be the friend and confidant that your dad didn't have and that you didn't have at that point in your life at the church. So, I want to shift from there, but talk about what was the lowest moment when you're at the church that caused you to say, "You know what, I have got to change directions here because this is just," maybe it wasn't destroying you, but it was not good for you. So, talk about the lowest moment that caused you to say, "I need to shift. This cannot continue."

Jeff C:

I can go back to it instantly. I know it in a heartbeat. There was a leader who was part of our team who had moved from Chicago to Boston to be a part of our team. And he called me to tell me that he and his wife had decided to move somewhere else, and they were leaving. And I think I put a lot of hope in him being a part of things. And I'd already been feeling alone in this. And when he told me he was leaving, I tried to keep a smile on my face and go, "Hey, if God is leading you elsewhere," I gave him all the good God talk.

Jeff C:

I hung up the phone and I picked up this 25-pound thing called a concordance, okay, which is a big book at the time before things were online. I held it above my head and I threw it across the room, breaking the book, breaking the wall and started just yelling, "I hate my life. I hate my job. I hate leadership. I hate the church." I mean, I just lost it. And my wife walked in at the moment and just looked at me with just sheer terror. Okay.

Jeff C:

And she's like, "You have lost it." And I knew at that point that I couldn't just keep doing what I was doing, hoping for different results. And in a nutshell, I ended up getting in my car, taking every journal I'd ever written, driving to Vermont, driving to New Hampshire and just getting away to the mountains, which has now influenced my own passion to have leaders get away to the mountains. But it restored my soul.

Jeff C:

I started realizing I needed silence and solitude, and I needed to get away. And I needed to have the time and the opportunity to reconsider my own life, but it was because I had flamed out. I mean, I was violent. I mean, I would have hit somebody had they come in, if it wasn't my wife standing there.

Gary S:

This is an interesting opportunity, Jeff, because we talk about it all the time at Beyond the Crucible and at Crucible Leadership in general. And we say it a lot and we don't really unpack it all that often. And this is a great pivot point where we can unpack it. We say your crucible experience can change the trajectory of your life but it doesn't have to be the end of your story. If you will learn the lessons of your crucible and move forward, it can be the beginning of a new story that leads to a life of significance.

Gary S:

That's where we are in your story right now. Your crucible is there. You've got your journals. You're driving to Vermont, you're driving to places. What was the lessons? Can you touch on a couple of the lessons and how those lessons came to you that led you back from the pit of your crucible at its most explosive to then the path that you're on now? What was the first kind of learnings that came to you as you got away?

Jeff C:

Yeah. As leaders, most of us become too busy to care for our own souls and invest in our own, what I call soul care. I ended up in this little town in New Hampshire, went into a bookstore, one of those bookstores that had about 80 books. It wasn't Barnes & Noble. And there was a book there by an author that someone had mentioned to me, a guy named Henri Nouwen, who was a priest. And the book was called the Life of the Beloved.

Jeff C:

I took the book off, started to read it there. And I bought the book, went to a coffee shop and read it front to back. And the whole concept of the book was that, that we are truly loved, not because of what we do, not because of our family name, not because of the family business, not because of how much money we've made, that in our true identity, we are someone who is loved, loved by God, and we're lovable.

Jeff C:

And what I've come to see is that, that is the foundation of everything. I mean, I've worked with millionaires, billionaires. Doesn't matter how much money you have, we still have to go, "Am I important? Do I really matter? What's my identity?" It could be somebody who's an entrepreneur, they want to succeed. But it has to start with I don't need to prove myself. I am loved. And that one concept is truly a transformational concept and we need to take it from our head to our heart.

Jeff C:

And that began a journey for me to go, "How do I keep coming back to that as who I am, instead of what I prove, what I do, what I earn?" And so, identity matters.

Warwick F:

You made a choice to go and seek some solitude to say, "Okay, Lord, what next?" Why did you choose the path of I got to figure this out and change my life, rather than I'm just going to be angry and bitter forever? Because not everybody chose your path. Why did you choose that path?

Jeff C:

I can't help but thinking of a cartoon I saw recently, where there's a monster walking into the room and there's someone under the covers. And the monster goes, "Oh, nuts, they're under the covers. I can't do anything." But I think there's this part of us that wants to just hide under the covers when there's something wrong inside of us and I think it can be physical, it can be emotional, it can be relational.

Jeff C:

Sometimes it comes from breakdown in a marriage, where there's something that's wrong. And so, a good doctor knows that you've got to start with diagnosis. You've got to get to what's really going on. And to do that, you need space. I mean, so my wife and I are creating this 26 acres in Boulder, Colorado to give leaders space, not for information but to process. My wife was talking at a summit, a Q Conference a few years ago.

Jeff C:

And she said, "There's a difference between the transfer of information and transformation." And I think what a lot of us have realized is information is great but it's not enough. We need practices. We need things that are going to bring us back to life. And in the book of John, Jesus said, "I've come that they might have life and have it to the full." And so, when we start to go, "Hey, that's a great concept. But if our life doesn't feel abundant, are we doing something to change that?"

Jeff C:

And that's where I've come to believe that certain habits, certain practices that are both spiritual as well as just life good habits can bring and breathe life back into us. And so, they've become what I call my habits of hope because I know that I'm just that far away like an alcoholic back into the guy who's going to throw the books across the room, shout my life stinks and go back there. And so, practices make all the difference.

Warwick F:

Yeah. And I want to get into the habits of hope. I love that word practices. But just before we do, you're in Vermont, New Hampshire. You're having some solitude. What was some of those first inklings that began to shift you to doing what you do now with We Train Coaches and Habits of Hope and the Soul Care Ranch? What were some of those? Maybe it's an epiphany but there were some inklings that led you to where you are now. What were some of those first inklings you were getting as you were in solitude?

Jeff C:

Yeah, it took a while but that solitude was life-giving. I mean, first, I came back a different person. One of the things that happened when I was there was my first real girlfriend passed away when she was 19 and I was 18. And I went to her grave. I hadn't been there since she died. And as I was staring at her grave, I saw this old couple pull up and go up to this tombstone. And I sat there just watching them and thinking they're going to be here soon. And my friend Cindy is no longer alive.

Jeff C:

It was almost like seeing death that made me go, "Jeff, do you want to live or do you want to die? Are you ready to engage life?" And so, I think we've all got to make that do I really want to live decision and am I really living now. And I realized I wasn't living. One of the things that God brought into my life coaches, one of whom was a mentor consultant who I still meet with. I met with him this week. His name is Bob Beal.

Jeff C:

As I was meeting with Bob, and he became that safe place, I looked at him and I thought, "Man, I wish my dad had this. And man, I wish so many other leaders had what he's bringing to me." And I thought, "How can I do what he's doing?" And certainly, it's not for everybody but I've come to believe that if there could be spiritually minded, great coaches for leaders that could help leaders have the safe place, have them find their story or change their story, that could be something that I could give my life to. And that began a journey for me of how do I learn to coach, how do I become a coach, and how can I bring coaching to others in the way that Bob has done that for me?

Warwick F:

That's so profound, I think, what you're saying. What we've said is, you wanted to become the person that you needed and your dad needed. That was maybe, you said earlier, what's the thing that you feel like It really bugs me. It angers me that there's not enough of x. Well, x for you is being the coach that you needed and your dad needed and that was maybe, some people have called it your holy discontent. That felt like that was for you.

Warwick F:

And I love all the things you do. I mean, there's so many. You mentioned before what you and your wife do at Soul Care Ranch. That sounds like it's replicating, to a degree, what you had in Vermont in those days, probably more better, if you will. It probably includes coaches and mentors, places to use. So, talk a bit about Soul Care Ranch. And it sounds like the genesis of it was that time at Vermont but it's more than that. It's more than just solitude, right? So, talk a bit about what you do at the Soul Care Ranch.

Jeff C:

Well, I think we all love content, right? I'm a content junkie. We love conferences. But what we came to believe is there needs to be space for transformation, for people to get away and be in nature because nature breathes life. The mountains of Colorado are absolutely stunning. But they need to then be able to spend time processing on some of the bigger questions. Where do I need healing?

Jeff C:

What do I need to avoid? What is the vision that is really my vision? And so, we've been creating and raising up spiritual directors and coaches who can work with leaders and then have the space and time for it. A lot of people go on vacation, and vacation is awesome. But this is like a vacation for the leader's soul, where you get away and you create the space to meet with a coach but also to meet with God, to meet with yourself, and it not be rushed. Because busyness and rush is destroying too many good things. So, what if there's this place that brings leaders to life, and that's what we've been creating in the last couple of years. And it's just been life-giving, even for Mindy and I to give and create what we wished we had.

Warwick F:

There's a line you mentioned, I think, before we were on air. And this is true probably for people in ministry and nonprofits, that they're running around trying to care for other people's souls. And I think you said, "Well, I needed somebody to help me care for my soul" or something to that effect. I think that's just so profound because leaders, even in businesses, I mean, more enlightened leaders realized they need to treasure their employees.

Warwick F:

You wouldn't have achieved profitable results without a great team. And so, a lot of leaders, well-meaning leaders are pouring out, pouring out, but nobody is pouring into them. They're not caring for themselves. And like elsewhere, you talked about elite athletes, and you got to take care of your body if you're an elite athlete. Well, if you're a leader, you got to care for yourself. So, just talk about that concept because I think it's really profound.

Warwick F:

You pour and pour out caring for others but yet, you got to care for yourself, which is not selfish. You can't care for anybody else unless you start caring for yourself. Let's talk about how do you look at that? What's your philosophy?

Jeff C:

Yeah. I remember, as a CEO, my dad used to go once a year and get this big checkup, where he'd go and have somebody look at all different elements of his physical body. And I think that's really significant, we all need that. But I also think we need times to get away and get a checkup of our deeper selves, our emotions, our purpose. Are we doing the right thing? Are we going in the right direction, our identity, our soul?

Jeff C:

And I think that, if I was to wish something, I would wish there could be an army of call them coaches who would bring that kind of surgeon general for the soul type of approach to help leaders. Because I mean, some of my mentors, and maybe you know who these people are, Gary and Warwick, is they've become tabloid of what their failures are, their moral failures. And these are good people who went down paths that they didn't plan on going.

Jeff C:

And what I found in coaching is, because I've been in that safe place, I feel like I've worked with some leaders and helped them avoid it just because I asked them the questions. I asked them like, "Hey, right now, one to 10, how are you doing personally? One to 10, how are you doing morally?" And they felt like and they knew that I wouldn't share what they were really telling me. But there are a lot of times, "Well, I'm a nine, I'm a 10."

Jeff C:

And then, every once in a while, it's like, "I'm a two." "All right, do you want to talk about it?" And so, I feel like if we could have that for leaders as a way of their regular life, no matter where you are in leadership, if you're a young leader especially, having where you get away, where somebody is going to help get into the deeper parts. And then, you meet with those people maybe once a month or twice a month over the year to stay on track. What could happen?

Warwick F:

Yeah. I mean, that's awesome, having that safe place where you really can talk about these things and soul care. I love the concept you have in Habits of Hope. And it's like if you want to stay, it's funny, it's been in the back of my mind about some of these things even before we spoke. But if everybody these days they want to eat right, avoid junk food. They want to be healthy, exercise, stretch, cardio. Everybody knows that makes sense.

Warwick F:

But people don't tend to think about, well, what does that look like for the soul, for the inner being? Very few people do that. So Habits of Hope, so talk about, I know there's a lot of stuff in there, but talk about what are the key concepts you would say. And if you need to be physically fit to really do anything, what does it mean to have a fit soul, if you will? What are some of those habits of hope that... because you can't go on a retreat every week.

Warwick F:

What are some of those habits of hope that help sustain your soul so that you don't go to retreat and say, "Where are you morally, ethically, marriage" and it's like, oh, I'm a one, one, one on every... ideally, a retreat is good. You can't rely on that as the whole solution, obviously, which I'm sure you tell folks. So, what are some of those key habits of hope that sustains you day in, day out and sustains your soul?

Jeff C:

Yeah. One of the most encouraging things that I think has come out of neuroscience in the last number of years is that our brains can change. We're not stuck with the brain we inherited or grew up with or we had 10 years ago. There's a thing called neuroplasticity, which means that you can create new neural pathways in your brain. In the Bible in Romans, it talks about being transformed by the renewing of your mind, and that we can become better, healthier, happier, joyful, hope-filled people.

Jeff C:

And so, what are the practices that do that? And one of them is just so simple, that it's almost crazy simple. It's just you take the time each day to literally in your mind think, "What am I grateful for? What in my life is good?" Because I could paint a picture and you could feel really bad for me with things that are bad. Or I could say, "Hey, let me tell you about the things that I'm grateful for." So, every single morning after I have my coffee, I actually list out things that I'm grateful for.

Jeff C:

They could be Barney, my dog. They could be I get to live in Colorado. I mean, literally this morning, it was that I was going to be on this podcast. And so, by having those habits where you see you're blessed instead of cursed, your mind starts to believe it and ultimately, we really are blessed. But the victim part of us says, "I'm cursed, I'm broken, my life stinks." I could tell you stories of things that have happened in the last two weeks that are hard. But the heroes focuses on how am I being transformed in order to live into my better story. And so, I know I have a better story but I've got to practice the things each day that bring me back to the better story.

Gary S:

I want to make sure listeners understand the application to themselves. And that is, it is true, is it not, that no matter how bad your crucible is, no matter how rough your circumstances, even you standing by the wall with an exhaustive concordance that weighed 25 pounds, ready to hurl it into the wood or the plaster or whatever it was, even you, if you would have taken time instead to focus on gratitude, would have had things to enumerate that you had gratitude for. Is it true that all of us, regardless of our circumstances, can find if we look hard enough, and it's not that hard sometimes, things to be grateful for.

Jeff C:

Yeah, any great fiction writer knows, and I've learned this from great fiction writers is that, what they do is they bring about certain circumstances that their characters need to respond to. And how their character responds is what makes a great story. And so, in all of our lives, we're going to get faced with... I mean, we just had a huge fire come through Colorado. We get faced with these circumstances.

Jeff C:

Now, how will we respond? We can respond with, "I'm cursed, I'm a victim, and I'm even a villain because I'm going to get you for it." Or I can respond with, "Man, I get to live into this adventure. Look at how many things I still have going right. And I believe that God ultimately has things in his hands." That's where my faith comes in, that God cares about me in the midst of this, that God loves me in the midst of this. That's where I feel like there's the biggest hope. And so, the habits of hope are practicing the things that bring me back to that way of thinking.

Warwick F:

Yeah. I mean, that's so profound what you're sharing, Jeff. I mean, I totally agree and concur. Yeah. I mean, every day, I have my practices, probably not that different than yours. Daily Bible study and reflection. My church actually, every year, our pastor puts out the chapter of daily book in which a lot of different ways of going through the Bible, but it's right there for everybody in the church.

Warwick F:

We pick it up the first few days of the year and off we go. So, that's a part of that. But also I do reflect, I think it's almost like breathing for me or just a habit. I could look back and say, "Gosh, I lost this two billion plus family business and et cetera." I look back and say, very similar to you, I've been married almost within a year, the same length of time and I just say, "Thank you, Jesus, that you brought... we've been married at '89, whatever that is, about 32 years." It was all the Lord.

Warwick F:

It's a subject for another podcast, but it was definitely I felt like the Lord telling me, "This is the one I'd have for you in life." I was 100% certain, I checked it with some brothers who are believers and all the rest of it as you should on anything like that. But as the decades have gone by, I thought that was clearly the Lord. I'm so blessed with three wonderful kids. I love what I do in Crucible Leadership. We have a great team.

Warwick F:

I get to hear people's stories such as yourself. I mean, I'm so blessed. The Lord has provided us financially, way more than we need. I mean, yeah, there are challenges, but I look at all of those things and I just say, as a person of faith, "Thank you, Jesus, thank you, Jesus," I mean, pretty much every day. And the more you do, it's like the gratitude almost increases. You get to be just so focusing on gratitude and having those spiritual disciplines.

Warwick F:

If you're a person of faith, read the Bible. If you're not a person of faith, find whatever anchor for your soul is. I mean, at least to me, there are these A type people that go a million miles an hour. That tends not to be my rhythm. I'm a reflective person. So, I know if I don't take space to just be and not run around like a crazy person, my writing will suffer, my thinking will suffer, my interviews on podcasts will suffer.

Warwick F:

So, I try not to go too far too fast if I don't have to, and just say, "Okay, Lord, you're in control. It's not about achieving some big result. I just want to be faithful. And I don't know, I don't know if any of that makes sense. But I'm a huge believer and those habits of hope provide fulfilling life, so it's huge. I really hope listeners hear what you're talking about. Any reflections you want to add on habits? Because it's a massive subject, obviously, and really important.

Jeff C:

Yeah. I mean, I think I would just say there needs to be a paying attention to what are you doing when you're neglecting your soul and what are the symptoms? When you're neglecting, is it anger, is it victimhood, is it discouragement, is it depression? And then, when you do those things, note the difference. When you spend time taking a walk, breathing, to simply like 10 times a day, just take a deep breath and think of something you're grateful for.

Jeff C:

It could be something as simple as that. And going back to that scripture I quoted in John 10:10, the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. Whether you believe there's a spiritual principle out there or spiritual person out there that's seeking to take that from you, or you just are doing it yourself. What is stealing, killing and destroying? And then, what will you do to fight against that? I mean, because you can build all the strategies and get all the education and knowledge.

Jeff C:

But if you're not doing the daily practices that keep that stealing, killing and destroying from happening, and instead breathing life back into you, you're missing all that you're going to bring through your presence. I mean, you've probably heard your greatest present is your presence. And for leaders, your greatest present is your presence. Because if you're not fully there, everybody suffers, the people who work for you, with you, or even the coaches who coach you.

Warwick F:

I think another aspect of habits of hope or soul care I think listeners should consider, I think we're touching on this. If you have a splitting migraine and a few days go by, you're not going to ignore it. You're going to go to the doctor and figure it out, right? Because if you ignore it, it might be something really bad that could have been solved a lot sooner. I think it's the same with the soul.

Warwick F:

I mean, I do my daily Bible reading, I'm grateful, I pray. But being human, there are times in which I get angry or frustrated about things and sometimes I don't know what it is. So, I'll think and pray about it. Often, I'll say to my wife who knows me well, "Look, I'm angry about something. I don't know what it is. Help me figure it out." And typically, we'll figure it out. And then, "Okay, so what do I do about it? Do I need to talk to somebody? Do I need to pray?"

Warwick F:

So, when you have those early warning signs of anger, frustration, don't stuff it. Deal with it, figure it out. If you have a coach or a mentor, perfect. I'm feeling annoyed about something. I do not know what it is. Help me figure it out. Those to me is also part of, at least from my perspective, maybe it's not habits of hope but soul care. In that when you have those early warning signs, don't wait till the crisis happens. Deal with it.

Warwick F:

I mean, the tools you've mentioned, Jeff, provide outlets for that. You've got a soul care retreat. You've got mentors, you've got friends, you've got coaches. There are people who can help you get in touch with what that anger and frustration is, and you can deal with it before the whole ember turns into a massive forest fire and your house burns down. As we close and the time is getting on, does that make sense, just that early warning system?

Jeff C:

Yeah. And it's not weakness to need to surround yourself with people and processes that can help. It's actually wisdom. It's strength to know that you need others in your life who are going to ask those questions or coach you, or you need practices, and you need the time to do that. So, I would say if you see some of those symptoms, don't just ignore them. Do something proactive to get to the place where you're thriving because you thriving is what the world needs.

Gary S:

Speaking of practices that are necessary, the captain has turned on the fasten seatbelt sign indicating that it's getting to the time that we're going to need to land the plane here in our very interesting conversation on Beyond the Crucible with Jeff Caliguire. Jeff, before we do that though, and Warwick asks you another question, I would be remiss if I did not ask you on behalf of our listeners, how can they find out more about you? How can they find you on the internet?

Jeff C:

So, you may be listening to this and thinking, "Man, I would love to be that kind of coach," because I'm trying to raise up and train coaches who are spiritual leaders. I believe coaches can be those spiritual leaders. And if that's intriguing to you, go to WeTrainCoaches.com. And then, there's an assessment there called Is Coaching For Me? And there's also people who may be going, "How do I bring a coaching approach to transform my culture?"

Jeff C:

That's also something that we work with, with leaders who are wanting to say, "How do we bring that into a culture by raising up leaders who think like a coach and raise up others in a coaching manner?" So, WeTrainCoaches.com. My wife's website is SoulCare.com. And there's tools there for those who are going, "Hey, how do I go deeper in my own spiritual practices?"

Jeff C:

The book, The Habits of Hope, probably the best place I just say, go to the habitsofhope.com and you can order it there. There it is.

Gary S:

Right here. Here it is right there. So, Warwick, the final question is yours.

Warwick F:

Well, thank you, Jeff, for being here. I mean, it is so encouraging, soul care and habits of hope and surrounding yourself with people that can really be a sounding board and really a safe place. As we sum up, what would you say is a key message of hope, that if you forget everything else, what is the most important thing you want listeners to take away from our discussion today?

Jeff C:

Hope can be grown. It really is like a muscle. If you were to say where you are personally or where you are in hope right now, and you're a six or a five or something, I really believe that hope can get to a whole new place. But just be intentional and go. If you are a person that has an amazing hope, what will that do and what journey will you go on to grow your hope intentionally?

Gary S:

I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject has been spoken and Jeff has spoken it. The captain has indeed put the plane on the ground. Listener, I have a few notes I've been taking as Jeff and Warwick had been talking, some key takeaways that can help you as you embark on your own life of significance. And the first one of that, one of the first things Jeff said that really, really struck me was, find your deep gladness and apply it to the world's deep need.

Gary S:

I'll say that again so you get it. Find your deep gladness and apply it to the world's deep need. That's a recipe for what we call a life of significance. We say it's crafting a vision rooted in your gifts and passions and living out of these things to live a life on purpose to serve others. That's how we express it. And for helping discovering your deep gladness as Jeff calls it and your life's vision as Warwick calls it, you can visit our website, crucibleleadership.com.

Gary S:

In there, you can take our free life of significance assessment. Discover, are you a world changer? Are you a star performer? Are you an imagineer? Take the assessment at crucibleleadership.com and find out. Second takeaway from Jeff, beware victimhood. That's a good one. When Jeff started to view his frustration and depression as a pastor is the fact that he was a victim, that's when his crucible really went deeper and darker.

Gary S:

Your discontent is a sign but not of the fact that you're a victim. It's a sign that you need to discover a path forward in line with your gifts and your passions. And the third takeaway is what we ended our conversation on today. And I'm going to use the exact words that Jeff used when we asked him in a pre-interview questionnaire, what's a critical action you believe listeners can take to find hope and healing after a setback?

Gary S:

This is what Jeff wrote. Make gratitude your way of life. Write it, breathe and focus on something to be grateful for multiple times each day. Multiple times each day, plug into gratitude and that can change your perspective and pretty soon change your circumstances. Listeners, thank you for spending this time with us. Until we're together next time. Please remember this that your crucible experiences we know, we heard some from Jeff, we've heard Warwick's before. You heard mine a couple of weeks ago on the show.

Gary S:

Crucible experiences are difficult. They can knock the wind out of your sails. They can knock the air out of your lungs. They can change the trajectory of your life, but they're not the end of your story. In fact, if you take the lessons of those and you learn the lessons of those crucible experiences, as Jeff did, as Warwick did, as I've done, and you move forward beyond your crucible, your story can move into its greatest place ever. The greatest story of your life can be the next story of your life because that story leads to a life of significance.

Have you ever found yourself laid so low by a personal struggle that satisfaction starts to seep out of your life? Have you pondered, even fleetingly, ending the pain permanently? That’s the story of Gary Schneeberger — the show’s cohost who steps into the guest chair this week for BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE’s 100th episode. He and Warwick talk in detail about how alcoholism upended his journalism career and could have ended his life. But he found hope in AA, which led him to seek forgiveness from those he had hurt — forgiveness that, little by little, he was able to extend to himself as he embraced faith in God. He also discusses the Hollywood dream job he lost just after he turned 50 – and how that crucible has actually been a springboard to a dream life with a new family and a new business … and renewed significance.

To learn more about Gary Schneeberger and his PR firm ROAR, visit www.weroar.la

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Gary S:

I was what I would call a highly functioning alcoholic. I was someone who could go to work, work all day, stay up all night, party with my friends, get up in an hour and a half or two hours and go right back to work again. And I actually had to let people go, when I was a managing editor of a newspaper, who were good friends of mine, who would go out with me at night, drink all night and could not get themselves up and get into work. And they'd miss too much time and I had to let them go. And it was like, "Look, I can do it. Why can't you?" So that was the attitude that I had in terms of being highly functioning.

Gary S:

My work was good and my attendance was good. I wasn't falling, stumbling, falling down. Where things eroded was morally, things eroded for me ethically, things eroded for me in ways that are true crucible. That leads you to those things where after you've had the big party and you've gone out with your friends and you've had a great grand time, you lie in bed and you think, "Is this all there is?" Have you ever asked yourself that question, found yourself laid so low by a personal struggle? Maybe it's alcohol, maybe something else entirely, that satisfaction starts to seep out of your life?

Gary S:

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show. And for this week's episode, our 100th, I'm also Warwick's guest. He and I talk in detail about how alcoholism upended my journalism career and could have ended my life. But I found hope in AA and the forgiveness it led me to seek from those I had hurt, forgiveness that I was little by little able to extend to myself. We also discussed the Hollywood dream job I lost just after I turned 50 and how that crucible has actually been a springboard to a dream life with a new family and a new business.

Warwick F:

Well, Gary, thank you so much for coming here. Because this is the 100th episode, is it?

Gary S:

One hundredth episode.

Warwick F:

Which is amazing and we thought, what can we do that's special, that's different? And obviously, listeners have heard a lot about my story but they really haven't heard about Gary Schneeberger's story. Who is Gary? He's the cohost. What's he about?

Gary S:

And why is he involved in something called Beyond the Crucible? Does he have crucibles?

Warwick F:

Yeah. And because Gary is human like the rest of us, surprise, he has crucibles. I don't know too many people that doesn't. Life is not easy. But Gary has some amazing challenges that he comes through the other side to indeed live a life of significance. I think, in all honesty, we can learn from your story, from Gary's story. And it's a story of hope. And so that's why you're here. So as we always do and you spent some time in Hollywood, we're going to get to the main event. But let's hear a bit of the origin story, the backstory of Gary Schneeberger. You obviously grew up in Kenosha, Wisconsin. So tell us a bit about what life was like growing up and kind of the early years.

Gary S:

Yeah. And thank you for that. And thank you for the opportunity to be a guest in addition to being the cohost. It was a bit of a gimmick on our part when we said, "The 100th episode. Let's do something completely out of the box. You interview me." So we thought that would be interesting and we hope it is helpful as well. My origin story, my backstory, as you said, born in Kenosha, Wisconsin, youngest of five children. There's some interesting age differences in my family. My oldest brother, Dean, he is 71. So he's 14 years older than me. And my closest sibling, my sister Jill, is seven years older than me.

Gary S:

So, there's a wide range in ages. And when I came around, after seven years after my closest sibling, not only did she likes to point out, not only did I steal her babydom, she was not the baby of the family anymore and she has still not gotten over that completely. I was raised on my own in the sense that my brother Dean was long gone out of the house. He was in his late teens, early 20s by the time, I was kind of ambulatory and my middle siblings, there were three in the middle, seven years, eight years, nine years apart from me, they all kind of hung out together and had their own pack.

Gary S:

So I was kind of raised separately from them. So their experience growing up, their childhood and my childhood, differed a lot because we were raised in different environments, different circumstances. And the main circumstance that made that different was that our parents divorced, if I'm talking about my siblings, our parents divorced when I was 9 or 10 years old. So they grew up with mom and dad, I grew up with mom and dad but not in the same house, under the same roof with the same last name.

Warwick F:

That's obviously pretty impactful. But I think as you've mentioned to me, it's not like life was totally different. It's not like you never saw your dad or he wasn't around. You had a good relationship with both your parents even though they were divorced.

Gary S:

Absolutely. And that's not to say that that wasn't a crucible. My parents' divorce, it wasn't like when you're 9 or 10 and your parents get divorced, you think it's your fault. What did I do? You're the last kid left in the house, the last child, they didn't get divorced through the four children they had before that, it was you, when you were little, you were a problem. So there was a little bit of that that I struggled with. But I didn't last that long because was I ahead of my years in maturity, I don't know, that it just sort of the stars aligned and I was like, oh, I get that. I saw when my parents split up, as difficult as that was on me in some ways, not having them under the same roof, I saw that their lives individually improved. And as a child who loves his parents, you want to see them live the best life that they can. So there were some not great things when they were together. There were fights and arguments and those kinds of things. Home didn't always feel like the safest place in the world. So when they divorced, I still saw my dad, as you said, I saw him every Sunday. More than that, he take me to ballgames and take me to do things. So I lived with my mom. They didn't fight. They didn't argue over me. There was none of that stuff going on.

Gary S:

And I began to see at a pretty early age that they were happier humans. Not an endorsement at all of divorce, but they were happier people no longer married to each other. And in fact, as I got older, as I grew into my teens and then into my 20s, I saw that the spouses that they met after they divorced were actually perfect fits for them. And they were both inordinately happier, which made me happy. But as a young kid, I did see that home wasn't as stressful. As much as losing dad from the home hurt, home life wasn't as day to day moment by moment as stressful as it was before that.

Warwick F:

There's another interesting beat to the story as you're growing up. Your love of writing and journalism was fostered at an early age. And I think there's something I believe your mom did for you that was a help on that path. She gave you a gift.

Gary S:

Absolutely. What you're alluding to is that my mom noted that I liked to write. That was like my favorite subject in grade school. I still have in the bookshelves behind me here, I still have the very first story I ever wrote in first grade called The Pig. And it begins with like once upon a time, except I spelled once O-N-E-C. So it begins onec upon a time. But I learned to spell later. So my mom saw this in me. She saw this incipient desire to put words into sentences to arrange them into sentences and to build stories.

Gary S:

So she bought me when I was still 10, 11 years old an electric typewriter. Listeners, if you're of a certain age and you have no idea what an electric typewriter is, look it up on Google and you'll see. It's the precursor to a computer that you can do writing on, word processing on. She bought me an electric typewriter, which unlocked for me an entirely new world. Out of the ashes, if you will, of her disappointment in her marriage failing, she was able to pour into me something that ignited my spirit. And I started writing. I can remember Warwick sitting in front of the television set, watching Monday Night Football and typing out the play by play, every incomplete pass.

Gary S:

And, at that time in the '70s, the Packers stunk, so I was writing lots of interceptions and fumbles and stuff. But I was just typing so I could get the feel of what it was like to create words into sentences and paragraphs. But I eventually began to use that typewriter and I still have them again in this bookcase behind me, I still have them to this day, scripts, '70s were the height of super cop shows. So I wrote scripts where my buddies and I were super cops and we saved the city from... I still remember the name of one of the villains from JoJo Maroney who was a bad guy mobster in our city, and we save the city from that. And they're full of misspellings.

Gary S:

One of the weird things that we did is that we fought with monkey wrenches. I didn't even know what a monkey wrench was. I think I had it wrong. I saw it as like this big pipe wrench thing that you hit people with. But every episode I wrote, there was monkey wrench work going on to get us through. But what that did is create in me a place where as I was going through things that felt like something was missing. My dad wasn't there all the time when I wanted a hug right there in the house. He lived away a bit.

Gary S:

I was able to sort of pour myself into those worlds I created and I came to be able to craft stories, craft plots, do things like that. And that was a place where I escaped to, again, not run away from something that was truly horrendous. The first 99 of these shows, 70 plus have involved guests who most of them had far more incendiary crucibles than I did. But it still was painful and I was still able to go in there and put a little cool water, put a little salve on that pain by writing. And that's where my love of writing took off and I'm still doing it today.

Warwick F:

And so you began down a journalism career, it seems like there were two paths in your life. One was you love writing and you worked a number of different papers and worked your way up. But at the same time, there was something else going on in your life that was a challenge. I don't know quite how you want to unpack this but there were two tracks. You were doing well as a journalist working your way up, but then there was this other track going on that was a challenge. I don't know how you want to unpack that. But it's sort of there's two tracks going side by side throughout 20s and 30s, if you will.

Gary S:

Yeah, from my teens and what you're referring to is like many people do, we had a bar in my basement. So I'd sneak down there and grab a little drink and go, okay, that tastes terrible. But I feel a little lightheaded or whatever afterwards and it makes me feel older and cooler. And so from my mid teens into my late teens, with my buddies, I began to drink and I began to drink to excess, quite often. And then as the journalism career went on, one of the vices that they tell you... There are three vices of journalism. And I know this because I served in journalism, one, cigarettes, smoked those, did, don't anymore. Two, coffee, never drank that but I've got a Diet Mountain Dew inside this. And then three is alcohol. And that's one of the things that in journalism stereotypically can become a problem for people. And it became a problem for me. The more I moved on, the further I got away from home and the influences there that stabilized me, the more I tried to find joy, meaning, answers fun, excitement, adventure in the bottom of a bottle and never quite captured it.

Warwick F:

But I think you've mentioned before, you were a pretty functioning person. It wasn't obvious during the day that Gary Schneeberger had a problem. I mean, you talk a bit about this was going on, but your career was doing pretty well. I mean, so talk a bit about that career in newspapers as you began working your way up in journalism. I know there's a subtext there but talk about that journalism career.

Gary S:

Yeah, I was the typical itinerant journalist. I was the typical guy who every two, two and a half years left for a different paper. So I started close to my hometown in Wisconsin, then I moved to Iowa. But I never lasted more than three years because I got restless. I wanted a better opportunity. I wanted better weather. From Iowa, I went to Palm Springs, California. I ended up in Victoria, Texas. At one juncture, I ended up in Wichita Falls, Texas. I ended up in Scottsbluff, Nebraska for a cup of coffee that lasted about six months.

Gary S:

So, I moved around to different places, not because I didn't succeed per se in most cases. Sometimes jobs got cut because newspapers had troubles then too and I had to find another job. But as I was going to those places, the way that you connected, the way that you fit in, as you moved into a new community and a new newspaper, you started to run with the pack in the newspaper. And I was one of those people that in addition to growing in both the stature of my reporting nature and then I became an editor, I was one of the ringleaders, if you will, that pursued the extracurricular activities.

Gary S:

So in the same way that while I was at home, in my teens and early 20s, softball became, the game lasted an hour and the drinking lasted five, newspapers were put out, the paper we put it to bed, and then we didn't go to bed for the next four or five hours when we went out. So that just started to ratchet up. But I was, indeed, I was what I would call a highly functioning alcoholic. I was someone who could go to work, work all day, stay up all night, party with my friends, get up in an hour and a half or two hours and go right back to work again. And I actually had to let people go when I was a managing editor of a newspaper, who were good friends of mine, who would go out with me at night and drink all night who could not get themselves up and get into work. And they'd miss too much time and I had to let them go. And it was like, "look, I can do it, why can't you?" So that was kind of the attitude that I had in terms of being highly functioning. My work was good and my attendance was good. I wasn't falling, stumbling, falling down. Where things eroded, though, was morally things eroded for me, ethically things eroded for me in ways that are true crucibles, that leads you to those things where after you've had the big party and you've gone out with your friends and you've had a great grand time, you lie in bed and you think, is this all there is? And that was where I was treating people poorly. It cost me a very early marriage, it cost me friendships, it cost me girlfriends, it cost me friends. The way that I behaved, even though I could do great at work, I was not a very nice human being many times. I wasn't honest. I wasn't to be counted on in certain things. Beyond work, I was a mess.

Warwick F:

That's interesting, because some of the guests might struggle with alcoholism but some won't. And so, they might have friends, family, but it's hard to understand something unless you've gone through it at a deep level. There's levels of understanding. And so, I think what I hear you saying is it obviously caused health challenges and just being able to function on all cylinders, that make sense. But just this sense that not only did it cause that but it caused more than that in terms of you talked about moral, ethical, character erosion. I don't know that your average person thinks of it quite like that, that alcoholism can do more than just cause you health challenges. To me, that wasn't obvious to me. But that felt like it was true for you that it caused far more than just health challenges. Maybe that even wasn't the worst of it.

Gary S:

Oh, absolutely. And let's be clear, alcohol didn't cause my character deficit. It spotlighted it. I had a character deficit anyway. Alcohol just invigorated it and made it easier to do. It made it easier to not have to face the consequences of your things and deal with it. One of the things I learned when I went into AA finally and we'll get to that point, I'm sure, one of the things I learned then was what makes you an alcoholic is not how much you drink. It's not drinking an entire fifth of bourbon that makes you an alcoholic, when I was told in rehab was what makes you an alcoholic is why you drink.

Gary S:

And I looking at myself and realized I drank to change the way I felt. I felt like the kid that wasn't quite worthy of dad living in the home a little bit, way in the back of my head that was there. I was overweight as a child so I dealt with that. I felt like the guy that got rejected by girls when he dated them and they went out with somebody else. I drank to change what I felt. If I was happy, I wanted to get happier. If I was sad, I wanted to get happy. If I felt guilty, I wanted to feel free of that guilt. And those are the things that got alcoholism hooked in me and continued to go on until there was finally a rather explosive crucible that sent me on the right path.

Warwick F:

So let's talk about the switch. There's a pivot point that you had mentioned to me in 1997, a journalistic conference in which it seemed to be on if you hit a wall, or somehow you hit a point at which I can't ignore this. So talk about that day, which I know is a very challenging day. But I guess you could say some good came out of it, because out of that day came maybe one of the turning points in your life.

Gary S:

Absolutely. It was in 1997, in April of 1997. And I was working in Wichita Falls, Texas and there was a journalism conference every year, the Associated Press has a journalism conference where they give away awards for the best journalism in the state. And it was in Corpus Christi, Texas, which is on the coast, which was a fun place to go, and I was there representing my paper as the managing editor. My journalistic mentor who taught me everything I really know about journalism, he was there as well.

Gary S:

As the awards were handed out, my paper won a whole slew of awards. His didn't win any. It was like the mentee surpasses the mentor. It should have been a great moment of celebration. It wasn't. It was a great moment of degradation. In these conferences, they have hospitality suites where the journalists all gather and play games and play poker and drink. And it started out with me arrogantly bringing a bottle of my favorite top shelf whiskey. I didn't want their cheap whiskey, I brought my own. I'm shooting my mouth off. I'm flirting with a married woman who's at the card table with me.

Gary S:

I'm just acting in such an obnoxious way that this is what happened. The managing editor of the Dallas Morning News, the largest paper in Texas, every year at this conference ran a poker game in the hospitality suite for 25 or 30 years, he would deal. I sat at the table to play that game. I was so obnoxious in the way I acted from my arrogance about the whiskey I was drinking to the way I was treating people who were there. Jack Welch was his name, the ME of the Dallas Morning News, got up, took his cards and left the poker table.

Gary S:

I drove away the founder...He was a dean of Texas journalism and I drove away the founder of the most fun thing about the Associated Press managing editors conference in Texas. I drove him away from the table. I knew when I got back to the office that was going to get back there. People still talk about this in the state of Texas 25 years after it happened. And I knew that was going to happen, that was going to come back and that was probably going to be the end of my journalism career in Wichita Falls. So I went back to my hotel room. And this is the important part of the story that really pushed me over the line and helped me see I had a problem. And that was many was the time when I was drinking and I was depressed. Remember, I said, what makes an alcoholic is why you drank, you tried to get happy, it doesn't always work. The more you do it, the less it works. And it wasn't working for several years up until that point. And there were many times I would call friends in the middle of the night. We used to call it dialing while intoxicated, DWI.

Gary S:

I would call friends up in the middle of the night and I'd say, "Oh, my life is terrible, I'm going to kill myself." I would say that. Now usually speaking when you say that, it's a cry for help is the general consensus. But I remember lying in my bed in the hotel in Corpus Christi, Texas that night knowing I'd just blown up my journalism career, thinking that I wanted to end my life but not calling anybody, just sitting lying in my bed. And that scared me deeply. Because I didn't want to reach out for a lifeline as it were. I was just sitting there. And somehow I got through that night, lots of tears. The next day I flew home. Somehow I knew it was going to be my last drink because I took one at the airport on the way home. This is the last drink I ever had. And got back to the newspaper, quit the paper that same day and checked myself into rehab.

Warwick F:

I mean, that's amazing. I mean, I do appreciate you sharing us because that's a very scary moment when it's one thing to say, okay, time for the lifeline, let's call some friends. But when you don't call friends, I don't know if it's like being in an airplane and an old-fashioned plane and like, okay, you're used to hearing the sound of propellers have gone, there's no propellers, which means your likelihood is you're going to crash, and the nose is going down.

Warwick F:

So if you don't hear the propellers, you get really nervous. If you hear the propellers sputtering, you get somewhat nervous. When they stopped, that felt like it was almost that kind of moment, if you will, in which the silence, the no noise and no voice meant that a bad thing maybe was about to happen. So, some people reach that point and just say either do the ultimate, take their own life, or just say, look, I just got to keep going with this life and whatever, keep drinking. But you didn't. So, do you have any idea why? Because not every alcoholic makes the choice that you did but why did you choose to check yourself into rehab and then AA? Why did you make that choice?

Gary S:

Clearly, I mean, the biggest reason is I did not want to die. So that was a big thing. And it's interesting Warwick. I mean, we talk a lot on the show about the phrase that you first turned on the podcast here where you say it could be your fault and not your fault. I was tired of living the life I was living but there was just enough of still wanting to live a life of something. I didn't know what that was going to be but I knew that it couldn't include alcohol, which it was like I said goodbye to it. I had the one drink at the airport, like I said, and I went back and checked myself into rehab. And that was the last drink I had, April 27th of 1997.

Warwick F:

And it seems like AA was a springboard to a deeper spiritual journey, because that really maybe potentially the pivot point in your life. So talk about AA and that spiritual journey how the direction of your life from we talked about the bottom of the pit, it felt like 1997 might have been close to the bottom of the pit for you. I mean-

Gary S:

Yeah, for sure.

Warwick F:

Because we're dealers in hope here, then hope sprang. Maybe it didn't come with a huge horn but a little ray of sunshine, little itty bitty ray that grew brighter and brighter. So talk about AA and that really path to a deeper spiritual awakening.

Gary S:

Yeah. Backing up to my growing up years, we didn't go to church. I've been to church maybe three times in my life growing up. And that was to go with girlfriends on holidays. So I didn't have any experience in that area. So in treatment, they take you to AA meetings, and we all love them because even before we knew what the content was, because it was only time we could smoke, so we sat there and lit one cigarette after the other and smoke during the meetings. And that was the smokiest things in the world are AA meetings, probably still to this day.

Gary S:

But I remember the concept that clicked in my head was when AA talked about the idea of a higher power. And it was the first time truly in my life growing up non-churched, not really understanding religion at all. It was the first time in my life when it occurred to me there was a power higher than me. I wasn't sure who that power was, what that power was. But the idea that I wasn't the ultimate highest power in my life kind of cracked open a window that let some breeze in, let some sunshine in. And that began a process in which I did lean into the god of my own understanding.

Gary S:

And then that's another way that AA puts it. And that kept me sober for several months but there came a time in my life where I had to ask the question. Logic for me didn't dismiss God as there's no way that could be. Logic for me told me if it's a god of my own understanding and my own understanding is what got me lying in the bed wanting to die and not wanting to call a friend to say I wanted to die, if that was what got me there was my own understanding, how is a god of my own makeup going to help me?

Gary S:

And that was when I was open to the idea of something beyond that. That was when I started a new job in Palm Springs, California. I met a young woman in the newsroom. I wanted to date her. She didn't want to date me. She wanted to tell me about Jesus. She did over the course of several weeks that led to me accepting Christ and that that was the one two punch. AA got me on the on the on-ramp and then Christ got me to a place where true healing could then from the inside out occur.

Warwick F:

I think you've talked about this, but I just want to go one step deeper. So AA talks about you mentioned that a god of your own understanding, but yet it seemed like you had a deeper search for meaning and purpose but it wasn't enough. So just talk about, in your case, why was your faith in Christ, why is that such a pivot point for you in terms of finding meaning and purpose beyond, at least again, this is your journey, your truth as we say, nothing against AA but for you, there was something about your faith in Christ that just offered so much more.

Gary S:

Yeah. And I'm glad you said nothing against AA because I'm the biggest proponent still for AA. If it wasn't for AA, I don't think my life would have been saved. I think my faith in Christ has made my life worth saving, if that makes sense. There was the stain of my hand, the stain of the self-destructive behavior, and then there was living in a way that made my life something that reflected goodness, not self-indulgence. But what was that for me, it was a longing for I said earlier, I would come home after hanging out with the guys in the newsroom and lie in bed and go there's got to be more than this.

Gary S:

And when I was introduced to Jesus and I was introduced to people who followed him, that was when I discovered that there was indeed something more than this, there was something more than just getting by day by day, there was something deeper well before, long before, decades before. While you were still trying to bounce back from your crucible and find your life of significance, I began to understand without calling it that. What I wanted was a life of significance. And I didn't have it and I wanted to find a way to get it.

Warwick F:

And I want to shift to the next at a point in your career, which is interesting. But one of the things we talk about a lot in Crucible Leadership and indeed on this podcast Beyond the Crucible is as you begin to claw your way back from the bottom of the pit, find meaning and purpose and a life significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, one of the things that's absolutely critical is the word we call forgiveness. Sometimes it's forgiving other people, sometimes it's myself, for me, it was more forgiving my own stupidity. But I have to believe you would not be the person you are today without dealing with forgiveness.

Warwick F:

Because I could potentially understand when you said what I went through is my own fault, how did you deal with the whole issue of forgiveness? I mean, we get the Christian faith says is because Christ died on the cross for our sins, we are forgiven. Those are nice words. It's one thing to read it in the Bible. It's another thing to believe it. How did you deal with this whole thing of forgiveness of, frankly, forgiving yourself?

Gary S:

It started for me anyway with forgiving others. One of the things AA is very good on is making amends as what AA calls it. And that is the people that you look through your life, seriously, they have you do homework, you go and you write down, here's the people you've hurt, here's how I've hurt them, and then you go to them and you ask them for forgiveness. And one of the things that blew me away was how many people just without hesitation, "Yup, I forgive you. Hug me." I mean, I didn't deserve it and they gave it to me.

Gary S:

And there's some kind of transference I think as you go through that experience, as you reach out to people. And there are still people where, there are still people to this day in the last year who encountered me during my alcoholic years who I've had the opportunity to apologize to, for the way that I behaved in that time, and it's healing every time. But the more you go through that, the more momentum you build, the flywheel turns and you begin to find little ways to forgive yourself to go, okay, if this person who I treated this badly and I did this to can say I forgive you, maybe I'm worth it myself.

Gary S:

You say it on the podcast all the time, aren't you worth forgiveness? Forgive yourself. Aren't you worth that? And I had to come to a place where I felt worthy of forgiving myself. And the key to that in a large part was how many people who I truly wronged. And again, we're not talking anything criminal or anything like that but who I had treated abruptly, I had treated poorly, I had lied to, cheated on, they almost to a man and woman forgave me. And as those things build up, it becomes, to use another phrase of yours, a balm for your soul. And you're able to go, okay, maybe I'm not a black hat, maybe I don't have a black heart. Maybe there's something good inside here that someone could forgive me for that I can forgive myself for that. And that was a real turning point for me.

Warwick F:

I want to get to you shifted after being in Palm Springs to work to a very famous large faith-based nonprofit. That was a totally turning point in your professional life. So, talk about those years at that organization.

Gary S:

Yeah. It's two stories will sum that up. So the organization is Focus on the Family, founded by Dr. James Dobson in the 1970s, very high profile Christian leader. Two stories will sum up my experience there for the purposes of this and the purpose of I'm still doing my cohost job here and I'm watching the time. So I want to make this go as expeditiously as possible. But the first story is so Focus has chapel service, still does. Every month, there's a chapel service. And I got my job at Focus on the Family six months after I became a Christian.

Gary S:

And I remember the end of the Christmas chapel service, Dr. Dobson prayed for all of the staff. And I walked out of that. We called it the Chapelteria, because it was also the cafeteria. They still do. The Chapelteria. I walked out of the Chapelteria crying, because I realized that I'm getting paid for James Dobson to pray for me. That's a whole lot different than chasing news stories. And that's rewarding but it's not with a capital R rewarding or underlined rewarding or with any eternal significance rewarding.

Gary S:

So that was when I realized, boy, my spirit was going to come alive in this place. So that was the first telling story there. And then, there was just something about being able to help people with their marriages, their parenting, with their walking out their faith in the public square, it's the same thing, I think, that you think that you feel Warwick when guests say how they felt heard, when guests say, boy, that really helped me when you hear from someone from one of our listeners that something has offered them hope.

Gary S:

We were extending to people hope in difficult times, hope that marriages could be saved, hope that children who may be wayward weren't going to be that way forever. And hearing those stories every day, being involved, being able to be in the midst and help with those stories, yes, it was rewarding to break news as a reporter. But at the end of the day, not all the time did anything really change for eternal significance. These are things when I was involved with these things in Focus on the Family gave me a sense of fulfillment that went beyond just job well done. It went to the things we talked about focusing on legacy and significance and those kinds of things.

Warwick F:

So let's move on here. I know you had a stint in Hollywood from 2012 to 2016. So tell us a little bit about that and how that happened, because you moved from journalism to Focus, and now you go to Hollywood. So that's another shift. So talk about that shift.

Gary S:

Yeah, I'm a career chameleon. But I was 12 years at Focus on the Family and I was there when Dr. Dobson left and the new president Jim Daly came in and my job as the vice president of communications was to navigate in the press the transition from the founder, Dr. Dobson, to Jim Daly, the next generation leader. Had to put Jim on the map, had to get him in the press, had to make a name for himself, had to do a bunch of things to make that happen. That over the course of time did happen over the course of three years. Jim was established. He had just released a book. My last day of Focus on the Family was when Jim's book called ReFocus, which was his manifesto on how Christians should engage the public sphere, the public square. The day that book came out was the day that I left Focus, because I felt like my calling there, my job there was done. I had turned around the Titanic, the big ocean liner that is hard to turn around to go from founder, enormously popular famous founder to a lesser known but enormously talented second generation president. I raised a profile of that second generation president. He became one of CNN's top Christians to watch. Other magazines did the same sort of thing, he got identified and recognized. We did well there. So I decided, okay, I've always liked movies. Remember, I wrote scripts when I was 10 for my buddies and I to act out. So I took a job with a marketing firm in Hollywood, which faith-based marketing firm was marketed films both faith-based films and secular films with faith-based content, or that would appeal to faith-based press. The example I use all the time, people would ask me, we worked on the Superman reboot Man of Steel. People ask me, "Well, you're a faith-based marketing firm. Why are you working on Man of Steel?" And I say, "Well, it's the story of an otherworldly father who sent his only son to earth to save mankind." I read that in a book somewhere. I mean, that's a Jesus story in some sense, right?

Warwick F:

Absolutely.

Gary S:

So I went there and did that job over the course of three years and learned much and accomplished much and continued to feed this idea that we were, it was more than box office receipts that we cared about. It was more than that. It was people picking up their Bibles and reading them after a certain show came out. That was the rewarding part. That was the legacy part for me.

Warwick F:

There is an interesting story that you told me about the movie Noah. And sometimes it gets a bit of flack because the Bible isn't always full of all the details of the story. It just puts what God thinks is necessary for us to know. So it got a bit of flack but yet it definitely had a spiritual impact. I think it's just a fun story when you talk about the impact of movies spiritually that people might not know.

Gary S:

Right. I mean, Noah starred Russell Crowe. The biblical story of Noah, he doesn't speak until the ark lands on dry land. You've got Russell Crowe as your star. If you're going to do an absolutely biblically accurate account, Russell Crowe is in his first silent movie. He doesn't talk until the last third of the movie. So we can't do that. So there were some additions taken. As I would argue, they were extra biblical, not in the Bible but not contra-biblical. But the good news, despite all of the rancor that came from some in the faith community is that when that movie came out in 2014, and I'm reading this out of my book right now, the website biblegateway.com, the weekend that Noah premiered, reported a 223% increase from the previous weekend in the number of people who looked up the Noah story in Genesis chapter 6 through 9.

Gary S:

Also YouVersion, which is a Bible app, the number one Bible app for smartphones in the country in the world, saw a 300% increase in users opening the biblical account of Noah in the US and a 245% increase globally. My argument then, my argument now is how does a movie that drives people to read the Bible, how is that a bad thing? This was at a time, remember, that every movie was about a Harry Potter book or a comic book. This was the good book getting read by people because of a movie. That was a good day at the movie PR factory for me.

Warwick F:

Absolutely. So I want to talk about maybe one of if not the most recent crucible that you went through in which we were talking recently about blessings coming out of crucibles. Perhaps this is a good example. Talk about you had a crucible in Hollywood but it did lead to the blessing and what you're doing currently. So took about that last shift.

Gary S:

I was head of publicity for a PR firm that represented and promoted several movies. When you're like that in Hollywood, Hollywood operates like pro sports. When you're in charge of something and you have three or four movies that don't do well, the box office is disappointing, the studio is not going to shut down. The owner of the company probably isn't going to run away but somebody who's at the highest level of leadership in the publicity side of things, it just so happened I was let go because what the owners of the company had to do is be able to tell studios going forward, okay, this guy is no longer here who was running our publicity department, we've got new blood in place. And that helps you then get more contracts and get more things going on.

Gary S:

So no one ever said I was terrible at what I did. It was just they were good movies, the movies didn't do well at the box office. The numbers were disappointing. So they decided let's get some new people in here, like Gabe Kappeler got another job after he got fired. That's kind of what happened. And I was at a crossroads. I was at a place in my life where, oh my gosh, I'm 51 years old, I've got to find a job, what do I do? And that was when it struck me that I was going to start my own business.

Gary S:

I started my own firm in 2016 after this occurred. And I never would have had the guts to do it with a cushy Hollywood job where they give you a Lexus leased car and you get all this, that never would have happened for me. I never would have been able to leave that. But when that was removed from the table for me, it gave me the opportunity to say, you know what, I've learned a lot over the course of these years I've been doing this, let me put that to use. Not just in Hollywood, although I still do work for promotion of Hollywood films, but also for a variety of clients across the way including you Warwick in Crucible Leadership.

Warwick F:

So that's fascinating that it brings you to the current chapter you're on with ROAR that sometimes, I don't know, with me as listeners would no, I never would have been able to leave Fairfax Media if the company hadn't gone under in late 1990, I could never have left. Similar but different, it sounds like you, Gary, how can you leave Hollywood if you're helping to promote faith-based and secular films to a faith-based audience seemed like a pretty good calling. It was kind of fun. It was cool. Nothing wrong with having fun and you're making a difference but yet, if you believe in a sovereign God, for whatever reason He had another plan, and this plan wasn't just professional, it was personal. So talk about, because that really brings you to where you are now, which I think I would hazard a guess to say you feel pretty blessed I would say these days, if that's an accurate word. So, talk about how it was a professional and personal shift for you leaving Hollywood.

Gary S:

One of the crucible moments in life at Focus on the Family, Focus on the Family, marriage, parenting, helping people walk out their faith. I had my wife at the time who was by the way I mentioned, there was a young woman in the newsroom in Palm Springs who talked to me about Jesus, I ended up marrying that young woman. So we're in Hollywood and it over time became a rocky marriage, it became a difficult marriage. So I was dealing with that. I was dealing with not having a job. I got to a point where the marriage was not salvageable. I'll say only this To those of you who are Christians who are listening in, there were biblical grounds on my part to end the marriage. And I did. At the same time, as that was going on, I've had this weird habit my entire life. You've indicated Warwick, there a lot of stops on my journalism career track. I've worked a lot of places. I like social media. And so periodically over the years and many times it's been done to offer it and amends as AA would say or to apologize to people who I haven't seen who I used to work with. So I would be sitting around if I was bored and go, hey, I wonder whatever happened to Joe Smith who worked at this newspaper that I worked at in Victoria, Texas. And I tried to find Joe Smith on Facebook and say," Joe, what's going on?" We became Facebook friends. Sometimes I was able to run into the women I knew that I dated in those situations and say, "Hey, sorry about that." It's kind of this fun thing that I've done over the years. And on February 13, 2016, two days after my birthday, my mind just floated back to this reporter I knew in college who was, at the time, a young girl. She was 17. And I was editor of my college newspaper here in Wisconsin in Kenosha.

Gary S:

And I recruited her out of high school to come work for me. And she was so good that I promoted her to be an editor and I didn't know much about journalism at the time. I'm 21 but I'm trying to mentor her. I found her on Facebook, sent her a message. Could it be the one time ace journalist at the University of Wisconsin Parkside, Kelly McKissick, if so, wow, what's going on? How are you doing? Within like 12 minutes she responded back and said, "It is me, Gary." And she had been married and she was in the middle of a divorce.

Gary S:

In the course of the next several weeks, we discovered through messaging back and forth the way, the way that we first learned who each other was. And we never dated in college. I was her mentor. We were friends. So much so that when she graduated, I gave her my pen, because I want to encourage her to continue writing. We discovered that we were still friends. We discovered that we still had a lot in common. And more than that, we discovered that we were in love. So that was February 2016. By spring of 2016, a couple of months later, I moved back home from Hollywood to my hometown in Wisconsin where I courted her and we got married in 2017. So that story's come full circle.

Warwick F:

And you now have a wife and a family and kids?

Gary S:

Right. Yeah, being on Focus on the Family, not having any children, it was like, what do I have to offer now that the transition is over? And here's the funny part. All those 12 years I was on Focus on the Family and listened to all the broadcasts about raising kids, that stuff sticks to you. You learn that stuff. So I have two beautiful stepchildren, my wife Kelly, her two children, my stepchildren, Alyssa and Hunter. All that stuff I learned there has come in handy here and I've discovered that my desire to have kids, now that I have them is everything that I wanted and stuff I didn't realize I could want. And that's been an inordinate blessing for me.

Warwick F:

Wow. So obviously I'm sure you feel truly blessed. So as we bring things to a close here-

Gary S:

Yeah, the planes got to, the captain's got to turn on the fasten seatbelt sign.

Warwick F:

Absolutely.

Gary S:

I think I've heard it.

Warwick F:

And I think maybe the managing editor is about to put the paper to bed. And I think I can hear the press. It's almost about to start to roll those big turbines as the speaker about-

Gary S:

Good job. Good job.

Warwick F:

For those of you who've never been where they print newspapers, it's pretty cool. Late at night, 2 AM in the morning, whenever it is, and the presses roll. But as you look back at your life, at the challenges and maybe the blessings, what are some lessons? And you've had some really tough experiences, challenging experiences, gut wrenching crucibles. Few people have had easy lives. You certainly have not had an easy life. But what do you feel about the lessons, I know you're a person of faith and maybe you think of that God has taught you, I'm not quite sure how you put up it, but what are some key lessons as you look back at your challenges and some of the blessings that you feel like you've learned?

Gary S:

First thing would be in 2005, Peter Jackson, who's in the news now because he made a documentary about the Beatles from the footage from the movie Let It Be. But Peter Jackson did a remake of King Kong in 2005. And I really liked the movie, but there's almost a throwaway line in there. Jack Black, the actor, plays this kind of shyster film director trying to fast talk his way to get to Skull Island to get Kong. And he keeps running into things that don't go right, don't go right, don't go right. Talk about crucibles. He hits him every time he turns around.

Gary S:

But he says to his assistant at one point, and this line always stuck with me. It's not a big line in the movie but he said this, "Defeat is always momentary." So I think that my life is a lesson about that. I bumped into a lot of brick walls. A lot of them I ran into myself head first with a running start. But it's always momentary. That's one of the things we talk about in Beyond the Crucible all the time. It doesn't have to be your worst day. Your worst day doesn't have to define you. So defeat, as Carl Denham, the character played by Jack Black said in King Kong in 2005, defeat is always momentary. That's number one.

Gary S:

Second thing I would say is it was funny, we were on a call the other day, Warwick and I said this to someone about you don't have to tell us the stuff that we do right, just tell us what we can do better. And you were like, well, I kind of like hearing what I can do right. It helps me. And I was like, oh, I felt bad. But from my perspective, you learn more about what's vital in life and the life you want to live from what you struggle with than where you excel.

Gary S:

Chances are, in fact, you already know what you do well. Pay more attention to those things you can do better, because the attitude that you can do better is the very reason why you will do better. Yes, it's good to hear you did this right. Absorb those moments. But really dig in. When we talk about learning the lessons of your crucibles, dig into those things where you stumble, dig into those things where you've hit that wall. And learn the lessons of that because as you get feedback from that, we talk about it all the time on the show, when you get feedback from people about what you can do better, that's fuel to actually do better.

Gary S:

And if your heart, mind, spirit is open to the fact that you don't have it all together, that helps you get it all together because you have the right attitude going forward. And the third thing is the biggest thing I learned when I was in Hollywood, all movies come in three acts. There's a first act, second act, third act. The third act is always the most exciting. That's when the big crisis happens. The couple who's been together for acts one and two has a conflict, they break up, something bad happens. The cop loses the bad guy and it looks like the bad guy is going to win the day. Something's gone wrong. That happens in act two. And then the action ramps up, the hero rises to the occasion. And then in the last act comes the conclusion, that third act, the conclusion comes, cowboy rides off into the sunset. In Die Hard, John McClane gets in the limo and drives away. I mean, it's where all the action happens and all the happy endings happen. And all of the legacy, goodness, satisfaction, all of those things, significance, all of those things occur.

Gary S:

When I was in Hollywood and lost my job as the senior vice president of publicity for that firm, I was 51 years old. I was just at the start, if you believe actuarial tables, I was just at the start of act three of my life. And since that, I've moved back home to Wisconsin from Los Angeles. I've married a woman who was so kind and sweet and supportive. I have two wonderful stepchildren. All of those things happened at just the start of the third act of my life. So that's my story of the third act of my life. Always remember, listeners, that life comes in acts, and each act wraps up. So no matter where you are, if it's first act, second act, or third act, there are always plot twists. There are always opportunities to move forward and end in a place that is better than the place that you started. Even if you're in the last act, the third act of your life and it seems like it's ending on a bad note. Speaking of Peter Jackson, I think of the third Lord of the Rings movie, that movie had like five false endings. Just when you thought it was over and you're gathering the popcorn, there was another ending.

Warwick F:

Right.

Gary S:

The ending doesn't have to be the ending. I'll go back to Die Hard, which we have a blog. We have a blog about Die Hard and the crucible lessons you can learn that's on crucibleleadership.com. When we think that movie is over, John McClane's dropped the terrorist out of the top of Nakatomi Plaza, oops, another bad guy shows up, throws off a coat and is almost going to shoot him and John McClane's cop buddy, Al Powell, saves him by taking out the bad guy. There can still be false ending. So even if you think it's ended on a note that hasn't been great, keep going one step forward. One small step at a time as Warwick says, because that can be a false ending. You can write your own ending. The great thing about that, all movies have three acts, you're the screenwriter of your story.

Warwick F:

Wow. Well, that is a great place to end. I think I can indeed hear the managing editor or production manager, as the case may be, hit the button and someone is rolling and the-

Gary S:

The presses are rolling.

Warwick F:

And so just as we close, and then you can close this out as you always do, I just want to say just personally, you've been such a blessing to me, to Crucible Leadership. We brought you on board originally because we felt like it was time for public relations. But you do that great but you do so much more than that. As we're in the third act of getting this book published, you're sort of my wing man as we went through the last edits to make sure it was true to the story and the message and you get Crucible Leadership at a deep level, the cohost of Beyond the Crucible. We're different personalities, actually common faith but different people, certainly different upbringing, that's for sure.

Warwick F:

But yet sometimes, different traits, different backgrounds can make for really a great complementary team, which I think we are. And yeah, I mean, we wouldn't be where we are today without you. So you've been certainly a great blessing to me personally and to Crucible Leadership. And so, thank you for helping make Crucible Leadership what it is today. And yeah, it's been a blessing to hear your story. There's so much in it that I think listeners can really find hope as you've charted through your challenges to live what is an amazing life of significance. You've kept moving forward and you are blessed and have been blessed and look at what you do now with ROAR and a wonderful family. And those are times when you wake up and you think, thank you, Lord, I'm just blessed. Is that like a fair summary?

Gary S:

Yeah. I mean, I don't think about it all the time. And that's why this is a great opportunity to talk about those things because I don't think about the moment in the hotel in Corpus Christi lying in the bed not wanting to go on. I don't think about that every day. I don't think about that hardly ever. So to go I was there 25, 26 years ago and now I'm here, those two people aren't the same people. They don't have any of the same values. They don't have any of the same emotions. They have none of those things.

Gary S:

So yeah, that's an absolutely fair summary. And it's all been because taking one small step and learning to move on and learning to say I'm sorry and learning to say I forgive you and learning to yourself and to others, and learning to do those kinds of things. We say it all the time, I'm going to say it here in a minute. It doesn't have to be the end of your story. And all of those things that happened, all the things that happened to you, listener, that are crucibles could be the end of your story but you have to let it be. And I'm surprised myself sometimes when I say all life's in three acts, all movies are in three acts, your stories in three acts, you're the screenwriter. You can write the way every act goes, no matter what act you're in. You get to write your own ending. And that is a beautiful thing.

Gary S:

So until the next time we are together, listener. Now I've put on my cohost hat. I'm no longer the guest. Thank you for spending time with us here at Beyond the Crucible. And do remember, as I just said, those crucible moments in your life are not the end of your story. I talked about all kinds of things that could have been the end of my story. And I write stories. So I know they could have been the end of my story but they weren't. So, you don't have to be at a place where those things become the end of your story either. In fact, if you learn the lessons of your crucibles, as you move forward, they can be, those moments can be the start of the best chapter of your story, the best act of your story because where they lead is where they led for me. And that is to a life of significance.

It takes quite a bit of pent-up, anxious energy to grind your teeth so violently that they shatter in your mouth. But that’s just what Nick Bradley did. More surprising yet, he says that moment of terrible physical pain brought on by equally terrible emotional pain was one of the best things that ever happened to him. Bradley says what he calls “the teeth incident” was the outward manifestation of his inner turmoil as a successful businessman who had discovered his high achievements came at the price of low fulfillment. So he changed the trajectory of his life. He started a business consultancy and launched the Scale Up Your Business Podcast to help clients and listeners be grateful, be brave, be faithful and show up for work and for life in ways that bring them satisfaction and significance beyond the bottom line.

To learn more about Nick Bradley and his podcast, now called SCALE UP WITH NICK BRADLEY, visit www.suybacademy.com

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Nick B:

So I've gone from this kind of real connection, starting to question things, starting to build a relationship with my dad after 30 odd years, realizing that actually he's a very success entrepreneur, perhaps that's who I should have been, perhaps I made the wrong decision with my fitness business, perhaps I should have done... All these things are going on. Then he dies, suddenly.

Nick B:

I sort of come back from that, I come back to the UK and a couple weeks after that I wake up in the middle of the night, it's about 3:00 AM, and I'm in a lot of pain. My face is all swollen, the right side of my jaw is really throbbing. And I go into the bathroom and I look in the mirror and it's all red and swollen. It's like I've been punched in the face.

Nick B:

And what's happened is I have literally grit my teeth, clenched my teeth in my sleep through probably a culmination of so many things going on that I've partly explained, and I cracked the two molars. Like, not just cracked them, like they shattered, like there's actually teeth in my mouth.

Gary S:

It takes quite a bit of pent up anxious energy to grind your teeth so violently that they disintegrate. But that's just what this week's guest, Nick Bradley, did. And would you believe, he says that moment of terrible physical pain brought on by equally terrible emotional pain was one of the best things that ever happened to him? Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show.

Gary S:

In his discussion with Warwick and me, Nick details how shattering his teeth was the outward manifestation of his inner turmoil. A successful businessman who had discovered his high achievements came at the price of low fulfillment. So he changed the trajectory of his life. He started a business consultancy and launched the Scale Up Your Business podcast, to help clients and listeners but grateful, be brave, be faithful, and show up for work and for life in ways that bring them satisfaction and significance beyond the bottom line.

Warwick F:

Well, Nick, thanks again and wonderful to have a fellow Australian. You were very kind to have me on your podcast, Scale Up Your Business, and we had a tremendous conversation. So before we get into Scale Up Your Business, I'd love a bit of the origin story, the Nick Bradley origin story. Obviously from Australia but you lived in the UK for close to 20 years, I think married a girl from over there, I'm guessing in the UK. So that's kind of what happens. I married an American girl and she brought me back to the US, so yeah, it kind of happens. Which is all good. So tell me, what's the origin story of your interest in entrepreneurship, equity, you grew up in Adelaide. So tell me a bit about how you grew up and you've clearly always had a fascination with entrepreneurship.

Nick B:

Origin story, yeah. So as you said Warwick, I grew up in this place called Adelaide. It's funny, I can't really lie about it because you know Australia so well. I can often say things about Adelaide and people go, "Oh it sounds like this nice, quaint little town." I often say it's famous for three things. Sharks, big sharks. They filmed a lot of Jaws' open water scenes there. Lots of churches. I think it's called the City of Churches. And the third thing, which always freaks people out, is serial killers. We had this spate of serial killers. Seriously. Like, yeah, this is not the podcast to go into that.

Nick B:

I suppose the summary of that is I had to leave, and I did. And I got into the world of media, and that's where you and I sort of connected a little bit. I worked for Rupert Murdoch for a number of years, specifically for his uncle, who owned a company called Murdoch Magazines. And I sort of cut my teeth in that world for a number of years, which got me to the UK, because I left that company and worked for a business called EMAP, East Midlands Allied Press.

Nick B:

I suppose it was like 15 years in corporate, in reasonably senior leadership positions. I was in sort of board level roles before I was 30. But I had my first taste of exiting businesses around 2007 when we sold EMAP to a couple of private equity firms and also a bigger German publisher. I was involved in the transition before exit, and then I saw what happened after exit, and I thought I need to go a little bit deeper into this world. So I joined another company called Getty Images, based out of Seattle but I was working for them in London and New York. That was a business that was scaled through a number of different private equity investments and exits.

Nick B:

We did multiple numbers of acquisitions when I was there. In fact, I was involved with about 30 of them. I think there's over 100 acquisitions in total. And that just got me into this whole world of... let's call it investment banking, corporate finance, high level wealth creation, all through M&A, mergers and acquisitions.

Nick B:

And I won't get to the punchline because it is the Crucible Leadership story, but let's just say the person I am today versus the person I was through that pretty amazing ride is very, very different because of some things that happened. But that's how it all started and I got kind of addicted to this world of cut and thrust private equity wealth, money, power, status, and it served me for a certain period of time but then after a while I needed to make a few changes.

Warwick F:

And that's fascinating, and one of the other things I think of Adelaide being famous for is wine, the Barossa Valley and at least in the US you see wine bottles... it'll say like Southeastern Australia and I don't know what that means. Southeastern Australia could be like 70% of the population or something. It's an arc from Adelaide to Brisbane.

Nick B:

It's like the whole of Great Britain fits in that, I think. So you better get it right.

Warwick F:

But yeah, were your parents entrepreneurs? Where do you get this business gene of loving the cut and thrust of entrepreneurship and business? Where did that come from?

Nick B:

This is an interesting part of the story. I had a business in Adelaide before I moved to Sydney when I started moving into the world of publishing. And it was a small personal training business. But at the time, we're talking sort of late '80s, early '90s. Personal training wasn't a thing. The people who had personal trainers were doctors, lawyers, stock brokers. It wasn't something that's as commonplace such as today. And I started that business not really knowing much but my grandfather, who was a big influence on me growing up, he was like, "Are you really going to do this? Why don't you go get a job? A job equals safety."

Nick B:

And I had that in the back of my mind. So I closed the business down. I sold it to a friend. Not for much money. Because I just sold my client list really. But what was interesting about that whole first introduction to entrepreneurship is I met some very, very wealthy, powerful, influential people and that was how I ended up meeting Matt Handbury and Rupert Murdoch, through that, having a personal training business.

Nick B:

But the story is I sort of thought you know, okay, well I'm not going to do this entrepreneurial thing, everyone in my family is saying it's not a good thing to do, go and get a job. So that's what I did. I suppose the long story short of that is 15 years of my life was a frustrated entrepreneur, well they call them intrepreneurs or something crazy like that, in businesses. And I just kept getting either promoted or sacked. There was no middle ground.

Nick B:

So I got promoted up because I was this chippy Australian guy, or I annoyed someone on the ladder upwards who wanted the job I was going for or something else, and then I got sacked. And that's kind of how it happened. But I was sacked within the companies, so I was moved around these divisions.

Nick B:

But here's the interesting part to your question. So I was this frustrated entrepreneur, I was quite successful, but I wasn't really happy with what I was doing. What happened was my father, he left our family when I was two years of age. The usual stuff that happens, Mum and him just sort of fell out. But then he came back into my life in my late 30s. So it was something like 35 years difference. And he was a very, very successful entrepreneur in Australia. He had a business, a jewelry business that was based in Collins Street, in fact he had a couple of different sites in Melbourne. And he lost that business in his early 40s because there was a bombing, a terrorist bombing at the Turkish Consulate, and he went from being effectively a millionaire to being bankrupt within the space of this incident because there's no insurance for things like that.

Nick B:

Now, I didn't know any of this, none of this. But then he came back into my life and I realized that he'd done this... he was very much an entrepreneur. After that incident he ended up building another business in his 40s into his 50s and effectively a millionaire again in a separate business. So when I met him, I realized that I had these kind of genes, these desires, this different outlook, whatever you want to define entrepreneurship as, that for many years I had repressed. And it was when I met him, all of a sudden it was like wow, perhaps I need to lean into this a bit more.

Warwick F:

You had this inner conviction that this is what I want to do and you went for it, which is really remarkable. So you were in these companies, you were somebody that wasn't afraid of your opinion. And sometimes that's accepted well. Those who are maybe insecure, it's like ah, Nick, no thank you for your opinion, you've given it to me about 10 times on this subject, can you just be quiet, go away. There are some people that unfortunately are too insecure or small minded that it doesn't work.

Warwick F:

So at some point you went to be an entrepreneur yourself and got into private equity, so how did that transition happen from just working within a corporate sphere to more going into private equity, venture capital, that kind of thing?

Nick B:

Yeah, so my corporate career, from the outside looking in, was pretty successful. As I said to you beforehand in terms of positions and money and roles, all those sort of things, responsibility. When I got into private equity, it felt like a natural fit because I was the guy that would effectively go and fix up problems. So the private equity firms would put me into situations that they found quite difficult operationally. So I wasn't the guy who would sit back with the spreadsheet, the MBA from Harvard and all that. I wasn't that guy. I was let's go in there and see if the people in this business can actually make it work and create value.

Nick B:

And if they couldn't, for the assessment that I would give from being in there, then I would be the person who would deliver the change, the transformation. And I was remunerated by both my time spent doing that but also the amount of value I could create by any change that I made. So if a business was invested in by a private equity firm, the investment went backwards, so it wasn't worth as much as what they paid for it. I would be paid, if you like, on what I could do to get it back to zero, get it back to above water, and then any growth that could come from it. So I found my niche in that. I found my niche. I wouldn't call myself an entrepreneur then. But I was operating in a very, very precise way in a very, very interesting environment.

Warwick F:

Yeah. But an entrepreneurial spirit of okay, we need to make some changes here, get value for the shareholders, and yeah. You usually want it done fairly quickly. So you did that for a while, and it sounds like you were very good at it. Sort of the turnaround guy, which is very valued in business, that somebody can come around and make a big change quickly. Which obviously all investors want understandably.

Warwick F:

So you did that. But does that kind of lead into, I think what you call the teeth incident where a lot of bad things happened. It sounds like professionally things were going gangbusters, things were going really well, you were very good at what you did. You had almost like a Liam Neeson like, a particular special set of skills, right? That not everybody knows.

Nick B:

It's very much like that, yeah, it is.

Warwick F:

Then again I'm not trying to... I'm being flippant but I'm not... But you were seriously good at what you were doing and you were paid understandably, which is as it should be in a market economy, if you provide value you should share in the profits. That's what the whole market economy's built on, it makes total sense. So you were doing really well, and at one level you enjoyed what you were doing, but yet... So talk about how you were succeeding, you were doing tremendously, and that led into the teeth incident which led to a pivot in your life. So talk about the Crucible, the teeth and the pivot.

Nick B:

There's nothing worse than getting a conscience, right? It's a little bit like... probably the best way to describe it, if any listeners have seen Jerry Maguire where he wakes up one day and he writes this memorandum which gets him sacked. It was a bit like that, but there was a lot of things going on at the time.

Nick B:

So when you get up to the top table in some of these investment businesses, private equity firms, that sort of stuff, there are some certain decisions that are made that are very much about the money that's going to be created. And I was involved in some of those situations where the value that we were extracting from entrepreneurs who built good businesses was disproportionately favored towards the private equity firms and the investors.

Nick B:

So we would actively go out there and try and get deals. You could argue that's fair, what's that whole caveat emptor sort of thing. But you know, there's a point where... and I know this now more so because I've delved right into it. A lot of the people who build great businesses are good at doing that but they don't know how to manage what happens up in the echelons of exits and things like that.

Nick B:

And you see that all the time. You see people who sell businesses but they don't really get the value for it. And I was starting to develop this conscience around it, thinking do I really want to go and do this when I'm not effectively lying but the integrity levels of what I'm doing is not where I want to play.

Nick B:

Now, why I started to develop this conscience is partly because my dad had come back into my world, and I realized that as a successful entrepreneur the people that I was screwing over were people like him. And I'm thinking, oh god, this is not feeling very good. And I was starting to get a bit sick, right? I wasn't feeling very good, I was feeling very stressed. And then two things happened. Firstly, I went away on this trip to Vermont, and my dad flew there from Melbourne, I was living in the UK-

Warwick F:

I'm sorry, you flew to where?

Nick B:

To Vermont, Vermont in the US.

Warwick F:

Oh Vermont, I'm sorry, yeah.

Nick B:

Yeah. Your accent's better than mine. And I ran a race there. They've got a 100 mile race, I ran the 100 kilometers because I was obviously not strong enough to do the 100 mile. But anyway, so my dad turns up, we spend this amazing two weeks together. We leave, everything's great, he's hanging out with my daughter who's a couple of years old. And literally 12 months to the day later I'm in Melbourne by his bed and he dies that day. He gets very, very aggressive cancer, lots of things go wrong.

Nick B:

So I've gone from this sort of real connection, starting to question things, starting to build a relationship with my dad after 30 odd years. Realizing that actually he's a very successful entrepreneur, perhaps that's who I should have been, perhaps I made the wrong decision with my fitness business, perhaps I should have done... All these things are going on, right? Then he dies, suddenly.

Nick B:

I sort of come back from that, I come back to the UK and a couple weeks after that I wake up in the middle of the night, it's about 3:00 AM, and I'm in a lot of pain. My face is all swollen, the right side of my jaw is really throbbing. And I go into the bathroom and I look in the mirror and it's all red and swollen. It's like I've been punched in the face.

Nick B:

And what's happened is I have literally grit my teeth, clenched my teeth in my sleep through probably a culmination of so many things going on that I've partly explained, and I cracked the two molars. Like, not just cracked them, like they shattered, like there's actually teeth in my mouth. I could taste them.

Warwick F:

Oh my gosh.

Nick B:

And the first thing happens, obviously I'm awake, right? I take some pills. In the morning I go to the doctor as soon as I can get there, they send me to the dentist, they examine it. The dentist says, "I've only seen this happen before and it's usually people who are in very high stress situations." And I sort of spoke to my wife after this, after I got it sorted out and said, "I've got to change this. I can't do this anymore." And literally that was the moment that I did change it, and within the following days, weeks, months after that is when I started to do the stuff I'm doing now.

Gary S:

Before you ask the next question, Warwick, I want to, no pun intended about crooked teeth or broken teeth, I want to drill down into something you said, Nick, when you started maybe seven, eight minutes ago in this conversation. You just very matter of factly said that your life from the outside looking in was successful. What you've just described at the end of your story there was from the inside looking out, not so much so. And I think a lot of our listeners maybe find themselves in that same position, that success sometimes can be a crucible in and of itself if it doesn't provide those things that Warwick talks about, that lead to a life of significance. Would you say that was much or sort of as much a crucible as the teeth incident? Was what you realized that from the outside looking in, everything was successful, but from the other direction it wasn't?

Nick B:

I know this now because I've examined it more for myself and others. I know there's lots of millionaires who still cry to sleep. So they may look great. Like, I had everything, the cars, the houses, the whole piece. But I wasn't living to what I now understand were proper values that inspired me so that I could create wealth and impact. To your point, Gary, yes. At the extreme of it, a lot of people don't make decisions, they sit within areas where it's sort of not too bad, it's not bad enough that they make change. So it's not great, it's not bad, it's in the middle, and that's what I was. The outside in looked great but actually I wasn't feeling congruent.

Warwick F:

I mean, that's sort of fascinating because I think of that quote from Thoreau, you know, we can live lies of quiet discontent. You weren't sobbing on the floor but it just, it seemed like there was something nagging within you saying is this all there is? Or I'm just tired of coming in and getting rid of the previous regime. Maybe it's not about lying but maybe there was other choices that may have been better for a wider group of constituencies, employees, owners, community, but maybe not the shareholders and private equity. There's all sorts of issues but when you're on a track you tend to block out those other thoughts because they're uncomfortable, then you just focus, okay I've got a job here and caveat emptor, buyer beware, and all that.

Warwick F:

It just sounds like maybe it was with your dad dying, those thoughts, some people don't come to that pivot point but you did. Why do you think you hit that pivot when you probably know scores of people that were just like you, your age, your time of life, and they didn't pivot. They said, "Ah, I hear what you're saying, but it's the world we live in and let's just keep going." Why did you pivot when so many don't?

Nick B:

I'll answer that but before I do I want to say that most people never will. And that is the travesty for me, in different ways. It's the same as someone who's in the job they hate for years and then all of a sudden they realize that time is running out to make any changes.

Nick B:

I think, I was lucky because I had an inflection point. The inflection point, which however you think about these things, I believe these things serve you. So my dad coming back in and giving me a message at that point, which I did resist, he tried to get back into my life multiple times but there was a point where I thought you know what, let's just see where this goes.

Nick B:

That created the inflection point for me to... back to my point around things are either really good or really bad, it got to a point where things were so bad that I needed to change it. That's the inflection point. So any fear I had previously of maybe going out and building a business, building an empire, all the different things I'm sort of more involved in now, I was too scared to leave the comfort of six, seven figure money coming in all the time. Until the pain got so bad I needed to make that change.

Nick B:

And the pain was, realistically, health, am I showing up as a good example for my kids, am I that person? And if I answered those honestly, at the point of time I wasn't, and those things are important to me.

Warwick F:

So, I want to shift to what you do now, but just so that sometimes opposites, or I don't want to say darkness illuminates the light but maybe challenges illuminate the light. Just so that we can understand better what you do now, what was it about your life or what you were doing that was causing you so much anxiety within you, that was causing so much inner turmoil? Because it wasn't like you were doing anything illegal, you were just doing standard operating practice, perhaps, in your industry. So what's wrong with... it's the market economy but yet something was really troubling it. How would you summarize the elements that were troubling you so much, that caused you to shift?

Nick B:

There's no such thing in my mind as what I'd call standardized integrity. Like what you think and what I think are different things. We're not wrong, it's whatever feels comfortable. There were decisions... Nothing was illegal of course, but I would sit in rooms and the conversation would be just create fear and uncertainty in the mind of that entrepreneur so we can get a lower value. Say some stuff here which is kind of on the borders of being real just so we can create a wedge.

Nick B:

It's more unethical than what I would call illegal, but it's like really? And I think back... There was a point in time where I was so driven around achievement that I didn't care about that, right yeah, whatever. But once I met my dad and that period of time was over a few years, he came back and I started to question things differently. I thought, I'm now a dad myself, all that started to happen. Do I really want to be this person? And how important is it anyway? And so that was the thinking.

Nick B:

There are still people who are in that and they may be very happy but that's where their integrity is different, I don't judge it. But for me, at that point in time, I realized I needed to make a bigger contribution to make me feel more complete.

Warwick F:

But let's shift here to Scale Up Your Business. Last thing I'll say on this is part of it is not being aware of it, part of it is you don't want to face it, because if you admit what you really think you are and the mistakes you're making, like my crucible was awfully different, it was a lot of my own mistakes, so it's hard for me to ignore that $2.25 billion failure.

Warwick F:

But yeah, I mean it's painful to look at yourself, at your mistakes and things that you've done wrong. So sometimes it's lack of awareness, sometimes it's I don't want to be aware because if I'm aware of it it's going to be excruciatingly painful. So I'd rather ignorance is bliss kind of thing. So it's a bit of both, I think, for many.

Warwick F:

So talk about how you pivoted in a way that many successful private equity folks don't, because you're on this train doing super well and there's always a desire for the next deal because it's fun, it's super exciting, the thrill of the chase. But talk about what your whole vision is with Scale Up Your Business, you have a podcast and consultancy, professional partnerships you do through it. Talk about what your vision was for Scale Up Your Business as you started it.

Nick B:

Yeah, sure. One of the things that I realized was that I needed to be more externally focused as opposed to focusing on myself. Had a bit of coaching on that, actually. It was about, I had high achievement, low fulfillment. Why is that the case? Because I'm not making a difference enough.

Nick B:

So the podcast was the first thing I started. So I didn't quit the private equity firm straight away. I was making a certain amount of money that I didn't want my family to suffer by any change that I was going through or any midlife crisis, right? So I started the podcast and I did that because of two reasons. I wanted to help people and I wanted to have a platform to share all the experiences I had in growing and scaling businesses. But if I'm honest with you guys, it was also cathartic. It's a little bit like if you journal or you go to therapy, just by saying the things it helps you.

Nick B:

So if you go to the early episodes, a lot of it is me in a dark room just talking into a microphone. I didn't do interviews for a long time. It's me for an hour just talking and sharing all of the war stories, right? And putting a perspective on it. But what I had in the back of my mind, which kind of drove that as well, was what happens if I jumped over the other side of the table? So I'm not going to leave the world fully because it's all I know, it's what I've done, but what happens if I sit on the same side as the entrepreneur? What happens if when they're going to sell their business and the private equity firms come or the corporates come or whatever, I'm sitting next to them, with all the experiences I've had of being on that side.

Nick B:

So the whole thing was, what would that do? And I started to scratch that. You know, play with that. And I realized that there was a massive gap of no one really doing that. So I built consultancy education, all that sort of thing around how can you build a business so valuable that you create a life-changing exit? What does that look like? Which is the scale up piece. Then when you get to that process, the final piece, the pathway to a sale, what sort of support do you need to be able to do that effectively so that you are leveling the table stakes against some very impressive people that may be on the other side? So Scale Up Your Business became that. It came off the podcast but it became more of that because of that one decision.

Warwick F:

So it feels like, in a sense, it's not so much standing up for the little guy but relative to some of these big private equity firms it probably feels a little bit like a David and Goliath, you're standing up for folks, you're helping them get some tools, and maximize their value, trying to level the playing field a little bit. Because I guess you could see your dad in a lot of these folks. You want to stand up for people. Entrepreneurs, they may not be financial geniuses but they have a vision for their business.

Warwick F:

And yeah, I mean I don't want to say it was a ministry, I mean you got paid for all that but there was an altruistic, it wasn't... If it just was about money, there's probably better ways to make money than helping entrepreneurs through a podcast. I mean, you've done unbelievably well, I mean it's just staggering, but do you know what I mean? Clearly your motive for this pivot wasn't how am I going to maximize personal Nick Bradley shareholder value, right?

Nick B:

Well, it wasn't, but I separated the two things. So one of the things you learn from private equity is you learn how to buy businesses. That's the whole play. So I buy businesses now. I buy my own businesses. So I build wealth by building out that and I know how to roll businesses up and sell them to private equity, so I do that. So the coaching, consultancy side of what I do, I don't look at that as oh my god, I've got to have a seven figure business like that. Because I'm approaching it in a different way, it's been more successful. Because I can pick and choose who I work with. I don't treat it in the traditional business sense. I treat it like something that's more of an interest to me.

Warwick F:

Okay, okay, no, that makes total sense. So some of the things you say in Scale Up Your Business and some of the interviews you've done is... I'm certainly aware of this. You've often got entrepreneurs that get their whole identity in the business. They won't let go, they won't bring professional management, and you would know far more than I do, I'm not aware of the numbers, 10 million or whatever the number is. At a certain point they can't do it all, but they want to do it, they're just clinging to it and their identity's all wrapped up into it, they won't bring professional managers. They can still be the keeper of the vision but bring in a good chief executive.

Warwick F:

I know you've seen this a million times, but it sounds like you're trying to come alongside those folks and help them say, "Hey, you know, if you want to get to the next level or any level, you've got to let go." So is that kind of something part of what you do with entrepreneurs?

Nick B:

My quote is this, and I say this probably more times than I need to. I even said today with a client. I said, "You can only scale a business to the level of your identity." And so if you unpack that, what does that mean? It means how you think about things, what you want to create, your bigger vision. I talk about 20 year visions and things like that with people.

Nick B:

A lot of the time I'm working on the person's mindset before I'm getting involved in the skillset that's going to allow them to create what they're trying to create. And that's the piece. If you ask me why Scale Up Your Business the podcast has been successful, is it's really a podcast about mindset. It's who you need to be. Interwoven with how do you raise money, how do you do better sales and marketing. It's not really about the business side as much as it is about the mindset side.

Warwick F:

Right, because if you don't fix your mindset, the other stuff won't happen. You won't maximize profitability, shareholder value, or be able to sell your business at a level that you would want to. That's fascinating.

Gary S:

Hearing you say that, Nick, one of the things that strikes me as is that there's a lot of scale up things we can say that seem to apply here. Scale up your authenticity, if that's part of your mindset, scale up your authenticity is a way to keep yourself from that place where you're successful on the outside but not on the inside. Scale up your significance, to use a word that Warwick uses a lot in helping people find their path to a life of significance.

Gary S:

And then a word that you used when we asked you in a questionnaire that we give to all guests, if we can only ask you one question what would it be, and you said, "What's the impact or legacy you want to leave?" There's an aspect there too, right, of scale up your legacy. That's really kind of what happens when you change your mindset along the lines of what you're talking about, right?

Nick B:

Yeah. And one of the things, I have sort of a mantra that I created in some bizarre way, and it's be grateful, be brave, have faith and show up, right? And the whole idea, gratitude, like being happy with what you've got. For many times, for many years I was chasing something and I wasn't really appreciating what I had. And that was, again, one of the epiphanies.

Nick B:

The whole idea about being brave, I think so many people don't face their fears. They think things are going to be much worse if they take action on something before they've even done it, and that's just such a travesty for me. Faith is not necessarily a religious thing, it's partly around self-belief, and showing up is taking action. Again, a lot of people, they're going to do this, they should have done that. For me it's about how you hold yourself accountable with a certain amount of discipline to make things happen.

Nick B:

So to your point, Gary, I think scaling up is firstly, what do I need to be, who do I need to become, and how am I going to do that to be able to build a business, build a life, make an impact. And that's kind of where everything's culminated into now, which is something I wouldn't have foreseen when I started this journey a few years back.

Warwick F:

That's fascinating because it sounds like when you say have an impact, you're thinking more just return on equity. You're thinking of it in a much broader way, with your family, with your employees, with society. I mean, is that fair? Like when you say impact, it's in the holistic, complete sense of that word, right?

Nick B:

It is, and I think the reason I... the point around legacy, is I think what I found to be true is once someone ticks the box of, let's call it financial freedom. They don't have to earn money again if they don't choose to. Quite often, not always the case, but quite often they then think how can I make a bigger impact? How can I go and help people? It's almost like a Maslow's hierarchy thing. I can't remember how that goes.

Nick B:

But the point being is they then go and do something. And I think, and this is probably the bigger thing for me, is I think with everything that's going on in the world right now, you've got economic stuff going on, political things, there's a lot of things that just seem a bit weird to me. I think entrepreneurs have the ability to make more change.

Nick B:

They certainly have more power, certainly some of the multibillionaires have. They've got more money than some countries. So for me, making an impact has another moral and social responsibility behind it that comes from entrepreneurship.

Warwick F:

And that's the thing that's fascinating to me, is we've talked before. I'm not against success at all, but success in of itself is not going to satisfy, it's never enough. The people with 10 million want 100 million, the people with 100 million want a billion, the people with a billion want 10 billion. It's like oh yeah, have a nice house in the Hamptons or I don't know, somewhere in the country in England, but somebody else has that nice house in Monte-Carlo or I have a small jet, somebody else has a bigger jet.

Warwick F:

It sounds silly but you know those folks. People do think like that. It's never enough. There's always somebody else... Well, pretty much unless you're Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates or whatever, there's always somebody else at another level. It's like gosh, I guess I'll probably never be at Jeff Bezos' level. Well, the answer is yeah, you're probably right, you probably never will be. But so what? It's okay. He's been successful, good on him, that's great. Fantastic. He has a great business model. More power to him.

Warwick F:

But if you have your whole sense of significance in being successful and the next quarterly earnings reports, it's not going to make you happy. But when you start thinking how can we use our business to provide a place where the talent of our employees is unleashed. We're serving the greater good of our community, shareholders, customers, we're making a global impact for good, whatever that might be.

Warwick F:

That starts scratching the itch of you know what, now I'm feeling somewhat joyful and fulfilled. I mean, I don't know if you can have it all but I think with the right mindset, maybe. It sounds a little optimistic. Can you have money and be happy? Yes. But you've got to think of the bigger game, the wider impact. I mean, have you found that with people you've worked with, that they're actually beginning to feel joyful and fulfilled, and they're successful too?

Nick B:

Yeah, it's absolutely possible. I mean, you've got to think of it from the perspective... I mentioned a couple of words during our conversation, I mentioned the word achievement and the word fulfillment, right? And this was something that I had to kind of learn myself, is that you can have high achievement and high fulfillment, but high achievement in its own right won't make you happy. So Porsches, Ferraris, big houses, private jets. Achieve, achieve, achieve. I'm growing. All that sort of stuff.

Nick B:

Unless you can give something back it doesn't help you. This was the big thing for me and I've seen it with others, is I just didn't understand that. The quote that changed everything for me was the Zig Ziglar quote, it's often overused, but if you help a person get what they want in life you'll have everything you want and need in life. Now, I'd never heard that until about three or four years ago and I thought, that's weird.

Nick B:

So if I help other people, I'm going to have everything I need? Yes. So what did I do? Honestly, this is how it happened, I launched the podcast. After that quote. Because I had no awareness beforehand.

Warwick F:

Wow. And I bet just with the people you've interviewed and what you've been doing on Scale Up Your Business, having an impact in a broader sense, I'm assuming that's been pretty immensely fulfilling, the stories you get to share and the messages and the feedback from people saying, "Nick, you've changed my life, you changed my business." It's not so much about ego but when you feel like you're doing something good for somebody, there's a feeling you get that's indescribable, that level of joy and fulfillment. I mean, has that been your journey?

Nick B:

It's been life-changing for me in terms of how I... I mean, I look different. I feel very, very different. I feel I have more freedom as a result of it, because I get every single week, I'll get a number of people send me a message, LinkedIn or personal email, telling me their story of how they've been listening to the podcast for a couple of years, they've implemented the stuff that I've suggested and they've got a successful business. And that's allowing them to do other things. And I go really? I still shock myself a bit but I get a lot of personal pride from my small way, if you like, of making a difference there.

Warwick F:

Well, you probably have people saying, "Not only is my business successful, my marriage is better, I'm giving back to the community, I'm happy in the general sense of the word." I'm sure you must have had those messages too, right?

Nick B:

Yeah, because I focus a lot on, as I said, personal development, personal development and scale up businesses. So a lot of it's like, what's your routine? What are you doing? How are you looking after your health? We do cover quite a broad range of things. So I've had people who have lost all this weight, feel better about themselves. It's not a health podcast, but it comes back to the point we've discussed a few times, identity, right? How do you want to be? And are you asking enough of yourself?

Warwick F:

Yeah, I mean it sounds like you are now helping people live fulfilled lives. I mean as Gary said earlier, you're helping people scale up their business but their legacy, their life, their significance. I mean, to me, I've found if you want to be joyful and fulfilled, from our perspective you've got to live a life of significance, which is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. That's the secret.

Warwick F:

And I'm not so much judging people, it's just objectively I don't know any human that's happy without doing that. You can complain about the creator or the universe, it just is what it is and if you're human you've got to live with it, which is you want to be happy and fulfilled, you've got to figure out more than the bank account and how you can help others. And you certainly have proven that.

Warwick F:

You think of some of the great robber barons in the 1800s in the US, there aren't too many that didn't learn that later in life. You've got Rockefeller has foundations, Vanderbilt, I mean Carnegie, Andrew Carnegie. Pretty much most of them, they kind of do whatever they could to be successful. Back then the laws weren't what it is now so there probably weren't as many laws to break, you just did whatever you could to win.

Warwick F:

And I'm sure most, if not all of them, were extremely cutthroat. But then at a certain point, I don't know if they grew a conscience but they said is this all there is? So they set up these massive foundations. I just find it fascinating that some of the wealthiest people in the history of the world in terms of the growth of the business, equity and all the rest, found that sense of gosh, there's got to be more to life than just money. I've got to give back somehow.

Warwick F:

And you could say well, it's to assuage a guilty conscience, maybe. Maybe. But I just find it fascinating that a lot of these folks at some point said there's more to life than just money, I want to have a bigger impact. Does that kind of make sense?

Nick B:

Yeah, but you answered this already by saying it's the human condition, right? This is the thing, like I don't think people who go out there and let's say I'm always going to play to win. You see this in sport, like there's a great documentary about Michael Jordan, right? The Last Dance where he's so driven, so driven to win, he's not a very nice person.

Nick B:

You look at the scoreboard, you look at the championships and you go, wow, but he seems quite conflicted to me. Right? So I think there's a point here where success on the outside, a lot of people look successful but unless they're doing the inner stuff, unless they're doing what we just talked about, a lot of them are just not happy. And ultimately, we want to be happy, right?

Warwick F:

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned sports. I think of, as you would know, all Australians tend to follow tennis, and at least about as many that play tennis as golf in Australia, which is not true in the US, at least not for men. But I think of Roger Federer, and he's somebody that equal holder of 20 majors, which will probably be broken by Djokovic pretty soon if not Nadal. But you just sense that he is internally very happy. He has a couple sets of twins and a wife that he loves, he has a foundation that helps a lot of folks in Africa. I mean, he seems genuinely at peace with himself. It's not about numbers, he just loves doing it. But yet, there are other things that he uses his fame for to help others. To me, it seems like he's living relatively speaking a balanced life a life of significance. Everybody thinks he's a super nice guy, and he seems to be at peace. Well, there's some lessons to be learned from him and others. That are doing it right in sports, if you will.

Nick B:

Absolutely. I mean, I had the privilege of meeting Hugh Jackman a few years ago, right? And he was pretty damn nice as well, I've got to say.

Warwick F:

Yeah.

Nick B:

He's successful. So you don't have to be an ass, if I can use that word on your podcast, to be successful. And I think if I go back to the story I shared, I kind of thought you had to be. And I surrounded myself with like types. And it was only when I made some of the different choices that I realized... whether it's balance or whether it's just the fact that you can do things in different ways.

Nick B:

The key thing, just to do an underline of this, people's values are different. What I was doing just didn't work for me. And I had to change that. And I think that's one of the things I want to get across. If you've got that sort of feeling, you're listening to this and you've got that feeling in your stomach that I'm meant to do more, or what I'm doing now is not my purpose, or I need to change. The worst thing I think you can do is just not listen to that niggle, that voice.

Nick B:

Because my belief, is at some point if you don't, it's either going to do what happened to me, you might get sick, that might be a blessing for you because it might make you change. Or worse, you're going to get to the end and you're going to go, "Did I actually play all out? Did I play the game that was going to get me what was really going to make me happy?"

Warwick F:

I want listeners to hear what you just said because I think it's really so profound, is that I find at least within my coaching, I'm a certified executive coach, the issue is not so much people's values are all messed up. The issue is more often than not, they're not living a life of their own values. I mean, you from your admission kind of weren't.

Warwick F:

So it's like, if you live out of line with what you believe in your heart, that will cause you anxiety, poor health. That will take a toll. So it's not about making other people happy in the sense of living their values. If you live out of line with your own values, that is the path to poor health and misery. So that's really, in a sense...

Warwick F:

In another sense you could say you're fighting for people's souls. I mean, one other kind of beat on this is that there's this notion of well, is it success or significance. I would argue that if you want to be truly successful, even financially, you're leaving... If you're Mr. Competitive or Ms. Competitive, you're leaving stuff on the table if you don't look at this wider game.

Warwick F:

Because you could be more successful even financially successful than you are, if you think about, maybe to use an often used phrase, treasuring your employees. You know, with your customers, it's like rather than trying to say well, you should have read the fine print in the contract. Customers aren't going to like that. You may be quote unquote, "Legally fine" but they'll go elsewhere.

Warwick F:

If you want to create long-term profitability, if you are seen as somebody who cares about their employees, their customers, their world, their community, all things being equal, who would you rather work with? The guy or the woman who has that more altruistic look on life or somebody else? Again, I'm an idealist at heart, but I think if anything, you won't be less successful doing what you're advocating about Scale Up Your Business, scale up your legacy if you will, scale up your significance.

Warwick F:

If anything, I think you could be as if not even more successful. So it's not an either/or choice. It's not like living your values means you're going to be less successful in the long-term. I don't know, did that make any kind of sense? I know I'm a little idealistic here.

Nick B:

People are scared, I think, of being vulnerable. So the point is if you do some deeper work on actually what you do value, if you really understand what that means and why your values are what they are... Because for me, it was explained to me, and I believe this to be true as well, is your values aren't just a couple of words that you put on a piece of paper, like integrity, honesty. It's not that, it's more deep seated than that. And it was expressed to me that sometimes your voids become your values. The things that you missed out on growing up or whatever that weren't around you, they became the things you value the most.

Nick B:

So once you understand those things, they also then help you to understand what motivates you. And then once you have more self-awareness, you then I think have more completeness. So I'm happy being vulnerable about what I've done and what I'm... I said before we pressed record, you can ask me anything, I'm not going to... I'm going to answer it. Because I've done the work to understand what makes me who I am. And a lot of people have never done that, therefore they don't lean into it, and therefore they're too scared to lean into it in case it unpacks something uncomfortable. But sometimes you've got to go there.

Gary S:

That bell that you heard go off wasn't because Nick said ass, ass is perfectly okay to say on the show, no, that's perfectly okay. The bell was the captain announcing that it's about time to land the plane, so fasten your seatbelts and get ready for landing. But before we do land the plane, Nick, I would be remiss if I did not give you the chance to let listeners know where they can find the Scale Up Your Business podcast and where they can learn more about your consultancy work.

Nick B:

Yeah, sure. Well, actually you know what's quite interesting, in two days' time. I know people will listen to this in a dimension of time, so what does that mean. Scale Up Your Business is now called Scale Up with Nick Bradley. For two reasons, partly because the guests that I've got lined up to come on the show were not just business magnates or things like that. I've got some interesting people from the world of sport coming on and all sorts. So we're talking a little bit more about scaling up more generally. But yeah, you can find that on Spotify, iTunes. You can look for my somewhat ugly face on the front of it. That's cool, look me up there.

Nick B:

Then yeah, if people want to kind of... the coaching and consultancy we do is at Scale Up Your Business, it's suyb, so Scale Up Your Business, .global. And you can check us out there.

Warwick F:

Wow, well thank you so much Nick. I mean, as we kind of close, when you're thinking... it's interesting you're changing your name to Scale Up. What would be a message of hope, encouragement that you would have for folks that are listening to you, maybe business owners, maybe people in general. What would be a message of hope that you would offer?

Nick B:

I said this earlier that I feel very, very lucky and a huge amount of gratitude that I had my dad come back, him passing away also and then the teeth thing, all of that happening in... I mean, that all happened in my sort of late 30s, early 40s, around that time. So I had the message. And had I have not done that, had that not have happened, I probably would have stayed in my lane.

Nick B:

So my message to people is, as I said previously, if you're doing something you hate, or you're doing something that doesn't feel aligned with what you really want to be doing, you owe it to yourself and to others to explore that. That doesn't mean the romantic ideal of burning the boats, giving up everything, I'm going to quit my job tomorrow and go and do this new venture. It doesn't mean that, okay?

Nick B:

It means, creating the platform, the space to explore. Because if you don't do that, we've said before, I think you could then regret but what I will also say from someone who's jumped to the other side is it's really good on the other side. So any fear that you have to do that is absolutely worth pushing through to get to something which potentially could change the whole game, the whole experience for you.

Gary S:

I have been in communications business long enough to know when the last word's been spoken on a subject, and Nick has just spoken. Listener, thank you for spending this time with us on Beyond the Crucible. That's still the name of the show, we're not changing it in the near future we don't think. But who knows, never say never.

Gary S:

And until the next time, though, we are together, we ask that you remember this, and you heard it on display in our conversation with Nick Bradley today. Your crucibles, we realize, we know are painful. They are traumatic. They're difficult to move beyond. But they're not the end of your story. And that's what this show is all about. And I hope that's what you glean from this conversation with Nick. His teeth incident, as he calls it, despite all of our chuckles at the name was painful but it wasn't the end of his story. In fact, it was the start of a new chapter in his story. And your crucible can be the start of a new chapter in your story as well. And it can be the best chapter in your story, as it has been for Nick, because where it leads you to, if you learn the lessons of that crucible, is to a life of significance.

David Richman hasn’t just taken a day to walk in others’ shoes. He’s spent hours, and miles, and months, getting to know the stories, the fears, the hopes and the lessons learned from men and women whose lives have been touched by the ravages of cancer. In his book, CYCLE OF LIVES, he chronicles his interviews with 15 people whose crucible encounters with cancer vary from patient, to doctor, to loved ones. In each interaction he has a singular goal: truly providing them a safe space to talk about the roiling emotions they experience in the aftermath of diagnosis. What he’s learned is that deep meaning and emotional healing can be born in those moments of vulnerability – even if physical healing isn’t part of the equation.

To learn more about David Richman and to buy CYCLE OF LIVES (all proceeds go to cancer charities), visit www.cycleoflives.org

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

David R:

You just never know what people are going through or what they have gone through. And to hear it, to say that, sounds trite, but to really get deep into it ... when you say, "Take a day to walk in somebody else's shoes, and then you really understand them," we never do that. And really what people go through, what each of us have gone through or have dealt with in our lives is quite fascinating, inspiring, evocative, sometimes wonderful, sometimes terribly tragic. And we just don't know. And I think that that was an awakening for me at such a deep level, going through this process of this book, that it really made an impact on my life.

Gary S:

David Richman hasn't just taken a day to walk in other shoes. He's spent hours and miles and months getting to know the stories, the fears, the hopes, and the lessons learned from men and women whose lives have been touched by the ravages of cancer.

Gary S:

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This week, Warwick and I talked to Richman about his book, cycle of lives, which chronicles his interviews with 15 people whose crucible encounters with cancer vary from patient to doctor to loved ones.

Gary S:

In each interaction, he has a singular goal, truly providing them a safe space to talk about the roiling emotions they experience in the aftermath of diagnosis. What he's learned, he explains, is that deep meaning and emotional healing can be born in those moments of vulnerability, even if physical healing isn't part of the equation.

Warwick F:

Well, David, thank you so much for being here and I'm really looking forward to getting into your book, Cycle of Lives, in which you talk about 15 people who've had cancer and just their stories, which is just incredible.

Warwick F:

And then I love the title of your previous book, Winning in the Middle of the Pack: Realizing True Success in Business and in Life, because we talk a lot about significance and success and you can have both, but success doesn't always mean significance. Different concepts. So I love that.

Warwick F:

Before we get into your book, I'd love to hear just a bit about the backstory that led you to write the book, because I think you grew up in Southern California, Los Angeles, from what I understand, and you have an interesting intro in saying being a smoker, overweight, sedentary and all. But you're also a finance guy. And one of the other phrases I love in your bio is that you realized you enjoy managing people more than money. Not all finance guys are like that. It's like, oh, people are kind of annoying, but you got to have people if you're going to have clients, right? But it's all about making money. But so talk a bit about your background as sort of a bit of a backdrop for your book.

David R:

Oh, sure. I'm going to keep it short, Warwick, and I appreciate it. And thank you for that intro, Gary. Very nice.

David R:

So yeah, my background's kind of interesting. I was so intrigued to talk to you because of this idea of crucible moments, and I've had quite a few of those. And not like a normal step from one stone to the next kind of path ... not that everybody does, maybe even most people don't ... but mine seems a little crazy. I grew up in the San Fernando Valley area of California.

Gary S:

That's crazy of and by itself. I used to live there, so that is crazy of and by itself.

David R:

That's crazy of and by itself, yeah. I had a weird dynamic growing up. My parents were nearly 40 years difference in age, so my father was entirely too old to have kids. My mom was entirely too young to have kids. Neither one really wanted kids at that point in their lives. And so my sister and I kind of grew up quite alone and self-sufficient, which helped me when I embarked on the world at 18 to rely on that self-sufficience as bad decisions and bad luck gave me a lot of challenges and obstacles to overcome.

David R:

I just went kind of from one job to the next, but always found myself in a management role. And that's where you mentioned that I like managing people more than money. I feel like there's not ... there's a lot of people that can manage money, maybe not all of them well, but there's a lot of people. But there's very few people that can manage people, and I really, really enjoy that. And almost everything in my life, including my writing, has gotten me to the point where I really love deeply connecting, being inspired by, and helping to inspire others through life experience, through difficulties, to areas that will better enlighten them, set them on a more authentic life path, those type of things. So I know that's a little out there, a little ethereal, but that's kind of where my life's path has taken me.

Warwick F:

So why finance? And how did that notion of focusing on people more than money, how did that kind of come through in the world of finance? Because not everybody that's a people person which you obviously are thinks, "Oh, let me go into finance, because if you love people you go into finance."

David R:

Yeah. It's a good question. And I kind of have this polymath life where I just cannot seem to focus on one thing. I mean, I feel like I'm really good at a lot of different things. I'm not great at anything. And when I manage people's money, I feel like I needed to be great at it, and I wasn't. I was good at it. I feel like I'm only great at a few things, but I love doing a ton of different things. So that's probably what brought me into finance, is just the intrigue, the math, the difficulty of it, the science, the art of it. It's interacting with people, but also dealing with spreadsheets. I just love that. But I really found that my skills were in dealing with people more than in dealing with the money.

Warwick F:

So you've been in finance for obviously a lot of years, and you could have kept doing that, but it seems like your life took a bit of a turn from just focusing on finance. So I'm guessing that was probably just the passing of your sister. Was that ... I mean, what was the key moment that shifted you from just being a finance guy to writing now two books?

David R:

Yeah. So I was always a writer in the background, but I'd never authored any books. Actually, I did author a couple of books in the finance world and one in endurance athletics before these two books came. But really it wasn't a focus. What happened Warwick is I was in the middle of a really difficult time in my life. I had had great success at work, but I was really not feeling entirely fulfilled. I was in a terrible personal situation. I had four year old twins and I was married to an abusive alcoholic. I was terribly overweight. I was a smoker. I just wasn't enjoying life and found myself at a really dark place. And I had to escape my personal situation for my safety and for my kids' safety, and I did.

David R:

And kind of in that same window, a very short window of time, where I said, "Okay, man, I got to start taking charge of my life and becoming who I want to be on purpose," I got a call for my sister who said, "Hey, I've got terminal brain cancer." And so it was this kind of weird dichotomy where I finally ... it was in my 30s, late 30s, I finally decided that I've got to take charge of my life and make a path towards where I wanted to go and who I wanted to be, and meanwhile, my sister, who I was super close to, at that same moment in time, had to decide how she was going to navigate a path that would lead to her eventual and untimely death.

David R:

So it was this weird kind of dichotomy and it really just ... seeing what she was going to have to go through with family, young kids, a great career, a wonderful life, that was ... she now was on a journey to the end of that. I'm on a journey to what I'm think is the beginning of my life, so those kind of things more, I don't know, accentuated the urgency of trying to live on purpose. And that's kind of where most of the changes came from, if that makes sense.

Warwick F:

Yeah. I mean, I want to dwell on this a bit, because we talk a lot in Crucible Leadership about being in the bottom of the pit, trying not to let your worst day define you. And we've had, I don't know, 70, 75 guests, I guess, on the podcast. And there's typically this moment of choice. It could be you might be abused. Maybe ... we've had paraplegics, quadriplegics, people have lost businesses, and often just really, really tough challenges ... an adverse health diagnosis ... and you're faced with this choice. Either you can be angry and bitter, and you have a lot of reasons to be angry and bitter. Whether you're a person of faith or not, whether it's God, the universe, fate, however you ... whatever paradigm it is, it could be like really ...

Warwick F:

I mean, my kids and family situation is one thing. But then my sister who I love ... I mean, what is the deal here? I mean, one would be horrific. Both is ... for many that say, "You know what? I'm checking out. I'm angry, I'm bitter, I'm going to be self destructive to myself or to others." And you're faced with a choice. Either you can spiral down to anger and self pity, which I have to say, would be completely understandable. I'm not judging you or anybody. I mean, I can't imagine what that would be like, what you went through.

Warwick F:

But yet as pretty much most of the folks or all the people on our podcast, they've made a different choice. And it just always amazes me. How can you make that other choice? You chose clearly not to be angry and bitter and to move forward. What led you to make that choice that many don't? Many, sadly, and I'm sure you know folks, they just stay angry and bitter at themselves, at the world. How did you choose a path that wasn't anger and bitterness?

David R:

It's a great question. It takes a little bit of unwinding on the answer, because for me, I kind of have always had an ... not hopeful ... I'm not very hopeful about things in those type of situations, because you can get swallowed up by the turmoil and the trauma and the misery and the difficulty. But I have been always in the background optimistic. And that's different, right? It's not event-driven. It's just kind of a thing that just, okay, it's going to work out.

David R:

Well, sometimes you have to really take an extra step to make it work out. And for me, that was being honest with myself and relying on myself in a different way. And where that came from is ... and I remember it vividly ... I was only a week or so out of that very bad situation. My kids were asleep in the other room. And I stood in front of a mirror in the bathroom and not quite in tears, but almost, and I just was looking in the mirror going like, "Who do you want to be?" Like, "Okay, you're this and you're that for this person. You're a good employee. You're a good boss. You're a good this. You're a good ... "

David R:

I nailed all the things that I am, but none of those things was who I wanted to be. And I just kept saying, "Who do you want to be? Who do you want to be? Who are you?" And I think that that desire to find out rather than to wallow in the single event stuff was what drove me, and then I wanted to find out. And everything I did at that point, from that point forward, was to find out the answer to that question, is who am I, and who do I want to be? What do I want to do?

Warwick F:

I mean, that's fascinating, because I think somewhere you talk about you can focus on making others happy and it's all about ... I mean, serving others is different than, I'm going to live in light of other people's expectations. I mean, as listeners would know, in my story, growing up at a 150 year old family media business in Australia, 2.25 billion dollar takeover and all, which ended up failing, it was all about living in light of my ancestors' dreams. It was nothing to do with what I want to do. It was making my ancestors happy and parents and whoever.

Warwick F:

So yeah, I had to unlearn. It's like, it's okay to think about what do I want in life and what do I want to contribute to life? Right? You can still serve others, but out of your own reasons, your own motivations. So that took me a long time to unlearn, but I'm hearing you.

Warwick F:

So your sister passes away and I believe you said as she was ... before she passed that somehow you wanted to use her story to help others, which led to ... I mean, you're a sort of ultra marathoner type. I think I've got here, competed in 50 triathlons and 15 Ironmans and races in 5,000 mile bike ride from California to New York, which is to me crazy stuff. Not crazy in a bad sense, but crazy as in most of us would never do that.

Gary S:

On my Fitbit, for instance, they give me badges every time you achieve a new milestone. So my badge I've got for steps distance so far is through the center of the earth. But that's over nine years. You did that on a weekend or something when you took that bike ride that you took. So I'm like, oh my gosh, you're like Forrest Gump, who just ran from one coast to the other and then turned around and just ran back.

Warwick F:

Yeah. It's unbelievable. So just talk about your sister passing and just ... you've obviously, amongst other things, a passion for triathlons and bike rides, and which led to the books. So talk about just those different strings, if you will, how they worked together.

David R:

Yeah, sure. First of all, I will say that nothing of significance ... and you had to go through a very, very significant change ... it doesn't happen because you decide to turn left one day instead of turning right and become somebody. It takes a lot of relearning, a lot of forgiveness, a lot of understanding, a lot ... it's scary, because you're going down new alleys and you're discovering new things. Significant change happens step by step by step. Right?

David R:

And I have a very ... let me just tell you a super quick story. I have a story that happened to me on one of my endurance events ... you'll appreciate this, Gary ... That became an analogy for change and significant change.

David R:

So I'm doing an 85 mile roller blade race, if you can imagine that. Who races 85 miles?

Gary S:

I can't, but I'm sure it's great.

David R:

It's completely stupid. And it's through the hills, the gentle rolling hills of Georgia, which there's nothing gentle about the rolling hills of Georgia. I have no business being on roller blades alone, let alone on an 85 mile race. I've never done anything like that.

David R:

And to make a long story short, I'm about 30 miles in and I'm heading up this hill that I cannot get up. It's just impossible. And I'm at the end of my rope. I'm a few hours in. I'm pouring sweat out of me. I was still overweight. I was still a smoker. And I looked down and I see my sweat had created this little line in front of me. And I was perpendicular to the hill, because otherwise I would've gone back down.

David R:

And I said to myself, "Okay, David, you can either turn around and just go home and call it a day, and there you would've known everything about yourself and everything you're capable of doing. Or you can just figure out a way to make one ... go past ... one step past that line, one little roll. You get one leg across that line and you discover something new. And every you take another step, you're going to learn something new and something new and something new."

David R:

And that's where I feel like that significant change ... or how do you go from smoking to doing a million triathlons and Ironmans and a 5,000? You do it by taking one little step and learning something new about yourself. And that's the way that you invent yourself. The way you rewire your mind is not to take on something that's impossible. You can't just one day not be affected by just a seriously traumatic event. You got to take it step by step. Find out something just a little bit new about yourself and then build on that and build on that.

David R:

And that was kind of like a parody for how I think about things, right? That's an analogy for how my brain works, is that I don't ever want to know the answer. I don't want to reach the line. I don't want to reach a limit. I don't want to think I know everything, because if I do, I might as well just pack it up and go home, because life's done. Right? I got to keep finding out what's past that line.

David R:

And that brought me to understanding or trying to understand what people were going through on an emotional level when it came to their cancer. And not just ... guys, not just people that were going through cancer, but caregivers, doctors, loved ones, survivors, those type, because they were really good about dealing with the tasks of their cancer. But when it came to the emotion of cancer, they had all hit that line, right? They didn't know where to go. They didn't know what lay beyond that line, because most people don't know how to deal with the emotional side of trauma.

David R:

And you guys know this. You talk to people about this all the time. It's the emotional side of it that's so difficult. And so I embarked on this project of saying, "How can I shed a light on what people have gone through or what they're going through and limiters or the things that have enhanced their ability to be able to navigate the emotional side?"

David R:

And the reason I wanted to do that, to wrap this very long answer up, is because I felt like if I could shine light on really traumatic, evocative, inspiring stories of people who had dealt with, or at times not dealt with, the emotional side of this, and we could really, really understand and bond with them in an authentic, heart-centered, deep, authentic way, then we might be better equipped to be able to help people in our lives that are going through difficult times because we might have a better understanding of what they're going through. Long answer, but that's where it is.

Gary S:

It's a great answer. And Warwick, before we pivot, and I know that you want to ask more about that, because that sets up the next part of the story, I want to back up just a couple of feet. I guess in your world, David, I want to back up a few hundred feet since you're used to going a lot longer than a few feet. But Warwick says all the time ... he uses the phrase, "one small step" a lot. And I think we have ... we think about it only as one small step because biting it off more than that would be too much emotionally to do.

Gary S:

I think what you said and what I heard is that it's also important not to go more than one small step because you don't want to bite off too much that you can't chew. You don't want to go from point A to point Z because that's a less chance of success, a less chance of completing it than if you just take that step that you took across that line of sweat, which I think is really important for listeners to know.

Gary S:

And it's fascinating this is how these things work. Today, I'm writing a blog for Crucible Leadership's website about the lessons that you can learn about crucibles from the movie Die Hard. It's going to be out by the time you hear this, listener. It'll be on crucibleleadership.com. But one of the points I make, and I just wrote this 10 minutes before I got on this call, is that one of the things that John McClane, Bruce Willis in that movie does, he keeps running into brick wall after brick wall after brick wall after brick wall, but he doesn't try to get out of it all at once. He just wants to survive crucible A and then move on to crucible B. That's his perspective. That's what helps him win in the end.

Gary S:

And I think what you're saying for you, what helped you at that moment of truth with the line of sweat on the ground was just taking that one small step and not thinking too big, but thinking big in terms of effort, in terms of emotion, but not in terms of activity of what you had to do. I think that's a critical point for listeners to understand as we move forward.

David R:

Gary, you're right. Let me add one thing to that. That step by step thing, and I love that idea of one little step at a time, is wrapped inside of what I think is a huge goal. So what I'm saying is I think you can set a goal that goes from A to Z, a purpose that goes from A to Z. Right? I feel like we don't often challenge ourselves to a difficult enough level to really make a meaningful difference in our lives. But when you go after something that is really difficult, overcoming severe trauma, accomplishing a major business or personal goal, you kind of got to go step by step, because it's impossible. It's impossible to jump from A to Z. Now I like the goal A to Z, but you got to go one little step at a time in order to get there.

Gary S:

Yeah. And the only way Bruce Willis could save Nakatomi Plaza was surviving one incident at a time.

Warwick F:

Yeah, no, it's such a great point. And yeah, just to dwell on this one more moment, because it is critical ... everybody we've spoken to on the podcast, they've just had notion of, okay, what's one small step? And really kind of the way I think of it, whether it's ... I have a book that came out in October, this fall of 2021, Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance. I mean, it took years to write, but it's like, okay, what's the next step? What's the next step I can do? And be disciplined about yes, I wanted to get it published and have as many people as possible read it, but release the consequences of the outcome. I can't control the outcome. I can't control how many people read it. I can't control how many people's lives are touched or not touched. But what's one positive step forward that I can make today?

Warwick F:

Focus on the ... I mean every good athlete I've ever read about has said this. They focus on the process. What training do I need to do today? What can I do today to make me a better athlete, a better quarterback, a better tennis player, a better whoever? I'm from Australia, so cricket's real big in Australia and the Ashes cricket series between Australia and England is going on right now.

Warwick F:

So there's all sorts of analogies. But elite athletes, they always focus on the process. Every interview with an elite athlete, they'll always say that, right? I'm sure it's true in people who ... ultra marathoners. What's the process? What's one ... so that way of thinking, it cannot be stated too often. And certainly if today is your worst day, what's one small positive baby step that you can do? So it doesn't always change the outcome of a health diagnosis, but maybe it can change ... we can't always control that, but people that we've spoken to have come from hugely challenging physical challenges. They may not ... if they're quadriplegic, that likely won't change. After the first few months, you pretty much know where you are, but how can I change the way I think? That's something you can control.

Warwick F:

So let's talk a bit about your book, Cycle of Lives, because it's fascinating that people are sadly all too familiar with cancer, physical tragedies. They know from their friends, their family. But you're right. People don't talk about the emotional side, the how do you ... what are those stories? How do you deal with that? It's it just seems like people don't talk about that for some reason.

David R:

They don't. And that's not just ... I'm not just saying that. Every person that I ran into had to some level, if not an entire complete diving into this idea of, yeah, I don't know how to deal with the emotional side of it. And that is literally every single person that I spoke to. And I witnessed it as well. My sister and I were able to talk about things on an emotional level, which which only strengthened my idea that that's very much the exception. And I'm not saying that nobody knows how to deal with it, but most people don't.

David R:

I spoke to a woman who was an oncologist at NYU, Perlmutter Cancer Institute, 40 years as an oncologist dealing in female and male breast cancer. And when I sat down and I said to her ... I said, "Hey doc, can I ask you questions that you don't talk to people about?" She goes, "I don't talk to anybody about this stuff. Not my husband, because we don't want to bring each other down. Not my peers, because I'm a woman doctor. I can't show weakness. Not my friends, because we're worried about going to a museum or going on a hike." She goes, "I certainly can't talk to my patients about the emotional side of it." But she had a very dynamic, wonderful story to get out about her emotional journey.

David R:

She just had never talked about it with anybody. And so that was an example of just ... it was every single person I spoke to had had that realization that they didn't know how to talk or even process the emotional side of it. And when I saw that, and I saw it watching my sister pass away and the people that I witnessed during a bunch of different events I did and talking to doctors and all of this, I just said, "I got to figure it out."

David R:

So when I put the Cycle of Lives project outline together, I just said, I want to grab as many different types of people, different age, different types of cancer, different points in their life, different traumas, addiction, abuse, abandonment, making bad decisions, being dealt a bad hand in life, you name it. How did all of these traumas affect them? Whether they were a one and done cancer, or they had lived their whole life with cancer or had given their whole life to treating people with cancer or whatever, so that when we say something trite like, "Oh, you never know what people have gone through," that we really start to get some understanding. And people like you that write books like you have, the lessons that you want to give are not in a preachy, prescriptive way. They're in a, "Hey, I really lived this. I really went through this. This is the ways in which I was enlightened by these really true, authentic experiences, and I'm just going to try to give you some insight into it so that you can take whatever you can from it."

David R:

And that's what I wanted to write these books for, because we both ... well, we all know, that oh, one step at a time doesn't really mean anything until you're not able to take a step. And then finally, when you're able to take a step, you can take one step at a time. Right? And so I have a tremendous number of lessons learned from these peoples' stories that kind of overcome that little ... trite sayings that we never want to listen to.

Warwick F:

So tell us a bit about ... I mean, there's probably individual lessons, but what are some of the themes ... and just for listeners to know, as you interviewed these 15 people, it was in the context of a bike ride across the country in a fairly short period of time, wasn't it?

David R:

Well, the bike ride was in the short period of time. So the bike ride actually came as a bit of a joke. Like I ... okay, you got the whole double meaning of Cycle of Lives, but is that I said, if we're all connected by emotion, which I think we are, and we're all connected by stories ... ever since before man could talk, we were drawing stories. So when I put these together, I said, "Ah, what better way to connect us than to get on my bike ride and kind of be the thread that connects the stories?"

David R:

And so I had talked to the people in the book, and many that didn't make the book, for a couple years. So to get super deep, I was talking to people for dozens, if not hundreds of hours in a few different places to really get super, super deep into their stories so that I could tell them in an authentic, real way, so that we would be able to really take something from their experiences. The bike ride kind of came as an afterthought. I did it in a very short period of time, yes, 4,700 miles in 45 days. A million wonderful stories along the way, but my bike ride was the thread that tied those stories together.

Warwick F:

So yeah. So what are some of the key learnings that you have? Maybe some commonalities, maybe not with all 15, but with a number of them, what are some of the key learnings that you learned from these incredible people that you write about?

David R:

Well, there's two things that I learned, one I'll tell you and ask you to believe, the listener to believe, that even though it's trite, there's so much more behind it, and that is, you just never know what people are going through or what they have gone through.

David R:

And to hear it, to say that, sounds trite, but to really get deep into it ... when you say, "Take a day to walk in somebody else's shoes, and then you really understand them," we never do that. And really what people go through, what each of us have gone through or have dealt with in our lives is quite fascinating, inspiring, evocative, sometimes wonderful, sometimes terribly tragic. And we just don't know. And I think that that was an awakening for me at such a deep level, going through this process of this book, that it really made an impact on my life.

David R:

I'd say the second thing that I learned is that if you do give yourself a chance to really connect with somebody authentically, you can take something from their story, from their experiences, and it will be carried with you as a very, very light, but as a weight, maybe a positive weight. But it'll be carried with you for life. And I'll give you a super quick story if I could guys.

David R:

So you said something earlier, right? Just take one, one step, right? Just figure out a way to take one step. So when I started talking to this woman, if you would've told me ... one of the people in the book ... if you would've told me, "Hey, David, you know what the key to life is? The key to life is just figure out a way to get your feet off the bed, onto the ground, stand up, make your bed, and go about your day. That's how you get through life," I would've maybe punched you in the jaw. Like don't tell me something stupid. I mean, really? That's just stupid.

David R:

So when I talked to Patricia and when I got into her story ... I'm not going to go super long into the story. But when I got into her story, it was absolutely mind-boggling, amazing the things that she had gone through. Not only did she wonderfully find somebody who would love her and that she loved and went through her adult life together, which is a hard thing to do, but it was in the backdrop of her having five different cancers over a 35 year period. Basically her oncologist was like, "Dude, there's nothing left to cut out. So I can't ... you've been at the practice more longer than I have. You're done. Next time you get cancer you're done." Five different cancers. She took care of her dad who was dying of cancer while she was going through chemo herself. I mean, this woman has been through the ringer.

David R:

But that wasn't really her story, guys. Her story was all of that, this finding love and learning how to love and be loved and dealing with a lifetime's worth of cancer and just a tremendous trauma, is that she had spent years trying to escape an insanely brutal, abusive relationship where she was beat up if he thought she looked at somebody. She had to reinvent herself. I mean, it was the most horrible thing anybody could ever go through. And it was just terrible.

David R:

And she told me, and I said to her ... one day I go, "Patricia, how in the world did you ever get through life? I mean, I can't even imagine the amount of trauma and difficulty you got through." And she said, "Well, David, listen. I escaped a certain death when I left that relationship and I escaped death at least five times through my cancers." She said, "The very first day of freedom I had from that relationship, I told myself, 'Every single day, I'm going to get up out of bed and I'm going to put my feet on the ground and I'm going to make my bed and I'm going to go about my day.'"

David R:

And she said, "Sometimes when I went through chemo, that meant as soon as I made my bed, I laid down again because I didn't have the energy to do it. But that's how I get through every day, is I'm optimistic that I'm going to be able to go about my day." And I'm like, "Whoa, that to me is a lesson." So now if I say or I hear somebody say, "Hey, just put your feet on the ground and figure out a way to get through the day," there might be so much more behind that. And now that I know her story, that makes an impact on me. And when I'm not feeling good, I go, "Get your feet on the ground and go about your day."

Warwick F:

Yeah. I think there's that optimistic mindset that really links everybody that's come out the other side of tragedy, that's come out the other side of the pit, is it's one small step, but it's like, I'm going to move forward in a positive way. I'm not going to be angry. I'm not going to be bitter. I don't know one person has gone through tragedy and come out the other side who's angry and bitter. I've not met that person, probably because it's not possible. Anger and bitterness, it's like poison. It will stop you moving forward.

Warwick F:

But I mean, you said so much there that it's ... we know very little about people. You meet somebody at a conference or a meeting, church, wherever you congregate ... and especially in the digital world where it's sound bites, you say, "Hey, my name's Warwick, who are you?" And you might talk about husband, wife, kids, job, but you're not going to say, "So who are you?" "Oh, I'm Warwick. I grew up in 150 year old newspaper business and I lost it at age 30, a billion dollar thing, and it took me most of the 90s to recover. And I'm in a better place now, but it was pretty horrific letting down everybody in my family. That's who I am. And how about you?"

Warwick F:

Like you, David, could say, "Well yeah, I've had a challenging family, marriage. I wanted to save my kids. My sister died of cancer. And I just wanted to really focus on telling people's stories who've gone through tragedy. Hey, that's me David", or some version of that. But who does that as an intro? Wouldn't that be helpful? Is if when they ask you who are you, you just calmly give a couple minute elevator speech, if you will, of who you really are? But we don't do that in our culture.

David R:

We don't do that in our culture. And one of the things that we talked about before is what are some of these limiters? And you know what? People are vulnerable. And one of the things that was a common factor, not in everybody, but in a lot of people I spoke to, was this fear of abandonment, or they had been abandoned or they self isolated, or they were forced to isolate.

David R:

And so what you're not going to do is you're not going to have that conversation with somebody that you don't feel safe with. And who feels safe with a stranger? Who feels even safe around people that know us? Because they might not know us like that. And so it takes a fair amount of strength and understanding that vulnerability is okay, that if you're safe to talk to somebody about the real you, that's okay.

David R:

I had lunch ... sorry to tell you this story, but it's been weighing on me for a couple of days. I had lunch earlier this week with a gentleman. He's 73 years old. He's going through a life change. He's ridiculously successful. And he read my Winning in the Middle of the Pack book and he went, "Holy crap, David." He goes, "You talk about this thing of caring about what you want in life. I've led my entire life knowing that I was supposed to be successful because that's what my family told me." He goes, "And I don't think I've done that. And now I've got to worry about myself? I've never done that in my life before." And it's like, he would've never told me that if he didn't feel safe, right? But how wonderful to know that I can know him at that deeper level now.

David R:

And so that's what we do when we write books or we tell stories or you guys interview wonderful people on your podcast, is you want to unpack it. You want to create this safe space to get to the real heart of the matter.

Warwick F:

Yeah. What you're saying I think I want listeners to really hear, because I've had a number of folks on our podcast that have said, "Thank you, Warwick, you create a safe place where we can feel heard," which means everything to me. But part of the reason for that is, and it's really the whole brand, the whole message, if you will, is I'm very open about my own tragedy, if you will. It's not a physical tragedy. And it's funny. Early on, I would almost apologize for what I went through, because it's not cancer. And I remember ... I know you're originally from California ... we had somebody that was from Southern California, Navy Seal, that was paralyzed in a parachuting training accident. He was an ultra ... as fit and as good a Seal ... his dad was a Seal ... as good a Seal as probably exists, at least from his dad's perspective.

Warwick F:

And so all of that was behind him. And I just was ... one of the very first podcasts, I was apologetic. I said, "Look, what been through is nothing compared to what you've been through," and he said, "No, that's ... Warwick, my perspective is this. Your worst day is your worst day, right? It's not a competition. You could say, oh, maybe some people you've interviewed have worst cancer than others. 'So you only have one cancer? Oh, I had 30. Okay. I got you beat 30 times.' It's not a competition between oh, you've got stage four or five or gee, you've only got one. Ha. You're lucky.'" And it's not that mindset.

Warwick F:

But I guess my point is, as you are vulnerable yourself ... I believe in being vulnerable for a purpose ... it gives other people the opportunity to be vulnerable because you've created a safe place and you say, "Hey, this is me," and other people will share with you. It just creates so much more meaningful dialogue, which would be so useful, because most people we don't know. But you love people so you want to know people. And I'm a bit the same way. I'm a lot the same way in that sense.

Warwick F:

I love learning about people who I know nothing about. I love hearing their stories because that's part of what it is to be part of the human race, right? What are our stories? I mean, for hundreds, if not thousands of years, ancient peoples in every corner of the globe would share stories about their families and about their tribe and their people group and they would hand it down from generation to generation, even before there was the written word, because that's our history, is our stories. Every ancient people group had that philosophy, but we somehow have lost it. We don't share our stories.

David R:

And I mean it's wonderfully said, and what I've found, and I know that I can tell from your experiences just in this podcast, is what you found is that those stories that we share when we do give ourselves a chance to really understand what's going through somebody else's life are really fascinating. They can be transformative. They can provide us with lights that we can use for the rest of our life. And to be open to this idea, and I love this, this concept of everybody's living their own lives and we're just passer-byers in everybody's life. I can never know what either one of you have gone through and vice versa.

David R:

But when you do open up and you do connect in a really authentic, heart-centered, meaningful, true way, if even for just a few minutes, it can provide us a directional light that we keep for forever.

David R:

If I could tell you a super quick story, I'm near the end of the bike ride, okay? And I'm heading over the George Washington Bridge. I'm going to finish at my self proclaimed finish line in Central Park. I got a big group of people and I don't know really how to navigate across the bridge to Central Park. And I roll up on these two cyclists and they're finishing a conversation and one of them rides away, and I asked the girl that's left, I said, "Hey, can you tell me how I get to so and so?" And she goes, "Yeah, you go here, you go here." And then she's looking at me and she sees this little patch on my arm that says, "Stupid cancer."

David R:

And I go ... she says, "Oh, well, what are you doing?" And I told her, "I did a bike ride," and dah, dah, dah, dah. "I'm just finishing it up from California." And she was like, "Oh my god. And you're doing it for cancer?" I go, "Yeah." She goes, "Geez. My dad died of cancer four years ago." And the old me would've said, "Oh my god, I'm so sorry. Thank you for the directions and I'll talk to you later."

David R:

But then knowing that if she could just find a safe space, there might be something she could give me. She gave me something I'll never, ever lose in my whole life. I said to her, I said, "Oh my gosh. Were you close?" And she said, "Oh, we were so close. He was a cyclist. He got me into cycling. Even as he was going through chemo for stage four cancer, we would go on these cycling trips when he was able to. And we just had the greatest things, the greatest experiences and memories ever."

David R:

She goes, "And he had a real good sense of humor. When he died, his cycling buddies used to make fun of him because he wore this shirt with a bunch of little ice cream cones on it. And he said, 'Hey, I want the viewing to be with me in this ice cream cone jersey, because it'll give all my friends a smile.'" And she started crying and laughing and we had this wonderful five minute conversation.

David R:

And when I drove away ... I gave her a hug. I knew we'd never see each other again. But I thought to myself, "I'm never going to feel, forget the idea of a man who knew he was going to die and spent time with his daughter and then as a joke to his friends and because I could learn ... like how graceful and wonderful and poetic is it that he wanted to be seen in something that would give people a smile, even though he was getting buried." It just ... the whole thing just stuck. It'll never leave me, right? And so we found this safe space to know each other for five minutes, but it was a light that will never ... that story will never leave me, right?

Warwick F:

That's amazing. So what are some of the ... I mean, there's some commonalities. Were there differences? Or maybe another question would be out of everything you learned in the book, what's maybe something that most struck you? Maybe biggest takeaway or ...

David R:

I think the biggest takeaway is no matter how strong people were, whether they were a doctor, a medical professional ... I mean, I talked to one guy who was a chief medical officer of a very large medical company. No matter who they were, this idea that they felt isolated or self-isolated or that they were abandoned at the biggest time of need. When they needed most to talk about things they couldn't, or they didn't have the safe space or they didn't have people in their lives who cared or knew how to deal with it. How hard is it for us to talk to somebody when we're having a good day or just a normal day? And we know they're having a ... and who doesn't? Right now, I'm sure both of you know somebody that's going through something difficult and it's like, "Shoot, man, I haven't called them in a couple of weeks," or, "I said I would call him and I haven't and it's been a couple of weeks." How hard is it?

David R:

It's just really difficult to find ourselves in the firing line of trauma and know how to deal with people, and that just isolates them. And even though sometimes we don't want to invade their space and we don't want to say something stupid and we don't want to look like an idiot or we don't want to look uncaring, so maybe what we do is just not deal with it, that just isolates them or abandons them in a way that is just it repetitive and ... so that was a theme that touched me the most, is that every person I spoke to either self-isolated or felt abandoned, especially when it came to having those meaningful, emotional interactions with people. And so they just learned to tuck those things away and not deal with them. And that's the thing that touched me the most.

Gary S:

It seems, David, for sure that you and the captain of our plane are on the exact same timetable because this is an excellent point. I think I heard the captain turn on the fasten seatbelt sign to indicate that we're getting close to where we have to put the plane on the ground, but we're not there yet.

Gary S:

Before we move forward and Warwick asks you a couple more questions, I'd be remiss if I didn't give you the chance to tell our listeners how they can find out more about you and your work online. How can they find out more about David Richman?

David R:

Well thank you, Gary. That's nice. The book, I wrote it to help people and to better equip them to have more meaningful connections with the people that are in their lives. But I also wanted to raise awareness and money for great organizations that deal with people that are going through trauma. So 100% of any penny that comes to me from the book or anything related to the book is going to ... is divided between the charities and the hospitals and the other nonprofits that the book participants each chose.

David R:

So if you do go to Amazon or Barnes and Noble or wherever books are sold and you think it might be a book that might speak to you, Cycle of Lives, I think you'll get some tools that you can put on your tool belt for how to form deep connections. You'll also be raising a tiny bit of money to help great organizations. So you can go to Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever books are sold, my website, cycleoflives.org. You can find out more information about me, the book, and everything else. And thanks for that, Gary.

Warwick F:

Sure. There's one thing that I heard, David, that really intrigued me. I think you said something like you discovered in people's stories, the more significant the trauma, the more likely they are to focus on helping others.

Warwick F:

Now, I don't know if I got that quite right, but it's hard for me to get my head around that one. So talk about that, because that does not seem intuitive, doesn't seem normal, doesn't seem to even make sense. So just help us understand that one.

David R:

It's tough because I don't want to sound preachy, right? But there is some truth to the idea of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I mean, there really is some truth to that. And not everybody comes out on the other side better. Not everybody has a happy ending. And that's the reality of this crazy thing called life, is that sometimes things don't work out. They just don't. And it's a sad a thing, but it's the reality. But I have found that what doesn't kill you can make you stronger. When you think about what it might take, one of my book participants walked in when he was six years old on his mother killing herself. Could you imagine how that could be used as a deep well to dive into anytime life gets difficult? Instead, he's learned from that on how to learn how to rely on people and not feel abandoned. And he spreads that message. Not in a preachy way, but he just ... he imbibes someone who wants to help others who feel abandoned.

David R:

I have this one ... a doctor that's in the book. She loves hugging her patients. And there's a lot of reasons behind that. She went through some unbelievably difficult times where she could feel no human contact and all she wants to do as a doctor is hug people. And it's just this wonderful idea of what doesn't kill us can make us stronger. When you go through something as difficult as you, some of your guests, what we all kind of probably go through in life, not measured against each other, but just difficult, our worst days, and you come out on the other side, sometimes if we do come out on the other side better off, we want to just help people. We want to ... we have some empathy for what others might be going through and we want to help. It's just a beautiful, beautiful aspect of life that we just don't focus on enough.

Warwick F:

There's one final comment, because I know our time is going. One of the things I've found is ... and I know I've heard other guests say this, is as you use your story to help others, your trauma, your tragedy, there is a healing balm. There is a healing component in it. Obviously not physically for those who have physical challenges. But I know for me, the book came out October, fall of 2021, and as I've begun to speak and people are saying, "Warwick, that story really helped me. Thank you for sharing." And yeah, I mean, you get over tragedies like that, at least in the sense that it's not an open wound, but it's still a scar.

Warwick F:

Not to belabor this, but one person, in fact, a student at a college outside of New York, Seton Hall, he asked me, "So is it challenging or is it difficult for you to go back to Australia?" Now, he asked that question because he understood my story at a deep level. It's not terrible, but because of the whole memories of the family business, and when you've got a wealthy family, there's often a lot of dysfunction, yeah, it's not totally easy. It's not terrible, but it's not a piece of cake. So I felt heard in that moment.

Warwick F:

But I guess the larger point is as I'm sharing my story and people are getting help out of it, it makes meaning out of the pain, but it also doesn't all go away. But it's absolutely very helpful. There is a healing component of it, at least psychologically and emotionally. And I have to believe that the folks you talk with, as they're focused on helping others, at least in their spirit, in their psyche, there's a healing component as they use their story to help others. Does that kind of make sense as we round up?

David R:

It totally makes sense. And it's really something that is quite unique. I think it's wonderful. I think the world needs a lot of healing. I think that when we are going through trauma, and there's trauma all around us, but we just kind of just accept that that's the way it is. I walked to school uphill both ways in the snow barefoot, right? I mean, suck it up and deal with it, man. That's just the way we've done it, but there's such an appetite now for that type of growth and that type of connection.

David R:

And again, because we can say this without it sounding trite, I'm unbelievably moved by people like you and the guests that you have and others who are willing to share some insight into what's behind that, you never know what people are going through, what they have gone through so that we can connect in a meaningful way and take something with it as we're trying to figure out our own lives and our own path and what we're doing in life.

David R:

So I'm terribly inspired by it. I'm very proud of you for doing it. It's very, very difficult to put yourself out there in a vulnerable, real way. And to have an altruistic hope that you will inspire one person or several people is just really wonderful. So I'm totally with you. I don't say those things lightly. There's not a light meaning behind it. It's a heavy meaning behind it. And I just think it's really, really powerful.

Warwick F:

Well, thank you so much, David. We're frankly blessed to have you and just you share some of the stories and what you've learned and yeah. Thank you so much for coming on.

David R:

You're welcome, both of you. Thank you Warwick and thank you, Gary.

Gary S:

So here's how I know that the plane is on the ground and it's time for us to gather our luggage and depart, is I was going to actually ask ... I've been sitting here for like 10 minutes wanting to ask the question that Warwick asked at the end. And we don't communicate behind the scenes here. I'm not sending him notes on Zoom to say, "Ask this question." So I was going to ask this question as a closer, what he asked you about healing being possible even when physical healing doesn't happen. And that was a beautiful way to end the conversation, I think.

Gary S:

And I want to leave you, listener, with sort of a mashup of the two big lessons from this conversation I think. It's a homework assignment that's a mashup of the two big learnings I think that we had here today with David Richman.

Gary S:

One, we talked a lot about taking small steps to get to your vision, to achieve significance, to reach your goals. There are small steps that ... wake up, put your feet on the ground, get out of bed, that small steps. That's one concept that we discussed here.

Gary S:

The other concept that we discussed was something David said about, we know very little about people and we do that because we don't pause often to ask about people. David told a story of a woman who indicated that her father had passed away of cancer, and rather than just saying, yep, thanks for the directions that he asked for, he paused and he asked a question that went a little deeper.

Gary S:

So here's the homework that's the mash-up. What is one small step you can take, listener, to move beyond perhaps an acquaintance relationship and build a deeper relationship with someone when it comes to this idea of asking more meaningful, deeper questions? Please make sure that it's appropriate to do so. So I say someone who's an acquaintance, the small step you can take. Look around you. See if there's someone in your orbit that you can take a small step and ask a question that you have not asked before that takes your existing relationship deeper and may unlock, for the person you're speaking to, may unlock some of this healing that we're talking about that comes from being vulnerable.

Gary S:

Warwick's experienced it. He's experienced healing from his crucible through his vulnerability. David saw it in the people he interviewed for his book. So let's mash up those concepts of taking one small step and really getting to know each other, really getting to know people in our orbits, mash those things up and see what we can create by doing so.

Gary S:

Thank you, listener, for spending time with us on Beyond the Crucible this week. We would ask that if you like what you hear here, that you would subscribe to the show. We also want you to know as we depart that we understand, we know from experience, both our own experiences and the experiences of the people that we talk to, that crucible experiences are difficult. They're hard. They change the trajectory of your life. But here's the really, really, really great news. They're not the end of your story. Not by far. They can in fact, be the beginning of a new story, a better story, a more exhilarating story that leads to a far better place than just success. It can lead to ... if you learn the lessons of your crucible, apply them as you move forward, what it leads to is a story that ends at the final period of the best chapter you can possibly have, and that is at a life of significance.

In this episode from February 2020, which we’re running in its entirety as we approach the new year and the personal reflection that always accompanies it, BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host Warwick and cohost GarySchneeberger explore practical ways we can live today in a manner that leaves a legacy that outlives us well into tomorrow. The key, you’ll discover, is pursuing your career and caring for your family with the kind of character you want to define you in life … and beyond. “If it matters to you on your deathbed,” Warwick notes, “why not get a head start and do something about your legacy now?”

Highlights

Michelle Kuei never really had a chance to dream about what her life could be before a tragic car accident at 11 in her native Taiwan left her with physical and emotional scars that plagued her for 30 years. She just wanted to be normal, she said in this interview first aired in May 2020. But then she discovered she was more than normal, finding inside herself what she says we all have inside of us – a diamond just waiting to shine. And shining is exactly what Michelle Kuei is doing today through her thriving coaching and speaking practice, Elevate Life Coaching.

To learn more about Michelle Kuei, visit https://elevatelifecoaching.org/

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Michelle K:

I finally had an aha moment just a couple of weeks ago and I spent all my life wanting to be normal, and my book was talking about normal, like being perfectly normal. But I'm here, I am here in the middle of the road and that was my past. I've already done that. I am more than normal. I climbed Machu Picchu, I did all that. I'm able to hike. I did all these things, but that's not normal. That's not normal at all. People can't do that. People can't just wake up one night and they say, “You know what? I'm going to go high Machu Picchu.” No, that's not normal at all. I'd done something very extraordinary that not many people can do. Why not accept yourself for your extraordinary? Why not accept yourself for who you are? You are more than just enough. Why not accept yourself for the gift that was given to you?




Gary S:




The gift that was given to you? In the form of a crucible? Accept the traumas and tragedies of life not as things to be erased? But embraced? Hi, I’m Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show.

You just heard a snippet of the interview Warwick and I did last May with Michele Kuei – a conversation so inspiring and insightful we’re running it again, in its entirety, as we head into the holiday season.

Kuei never really had a chance to dream about what her life could be before a tragic car accident at 11 in her native Taiwan left her with physical and emotional scars that plagued her for 30 years. But then she discovered inside herself what she says we all have inside us – a diamond just waiting to shine. And shining is exactly what Michelle Kuei is doing today through her thriving coaching and speaking practice, Elevate Life Coaching.

Warwick F:

Well, Michelle, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. You have an incredible story. I'd love to just start with tell us about your story that leads up to your crucible moment. Yeah, just tell us a bit about Michelle and your story.

Michelle K:

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure and in isolation, but it doesn't feel like isolation right now. I'm surrounded by a lot of love. To start, basically, I grew up, like Gary said, I grew up in Taiwan. I was born in Taiwan and as I was growing up at age 11 years old, just like all the other kids who go to school, I came off school one day and I remember that day my mom was running late. I was waiting for her at school and when I saw her coming towards me to pick me up, she was on her motorbike. There's a lot of motorbike in Asia. She was coming off on her motorbike, and I got up from my chair, I ran across the street. I wanted to meet her on the other side of the street.

Michelle K:

As I was approaching and walking to the middle of the street, I realized that my best friend was waving her hand at me and she said, “Stop, stop.” And she was waving at me and there's a lot of shouting that was going on. I was confused. I was standing in the middle of the street and I could just smell the rubber that was burning, and I don't remember where the sound was coming down. Then the next thing I know was that I woke up and I was in a hospital bed. And when I woke up and my parents were standing next to my bed, and they were talking to the doctor. I started to have sensation and I started looking down on my waist, and from my waist all the way down to my ankle, I noticed I was wrapped with this plaster that was surrounding my body.

Michelle K:

Basically, the doctor had… because of the accident, I had the accident while I was standing in the middle of the street, and the doctor had to stabilize me by wrapping me with a plaster from waist all the way to ankle. Following that incident, three months afterwards, I was basically trapped at home in isolation. I was in bed and I couldn't go to school, and I couldn't go anywhere. But what's the crucible, and I love the title of this podcast because it's crucible. What's really difficult in those moment at age 11 is that the fact that I was a little kid and I wanted to go out to play. I wanted to meet my friend and I wanted to just be where the life that I used to live in, but I couldn't do that and I was starting to live a different life.

Michelle K:

That moment was like a turning point for me because I no longer can do all the things I wanted to do in my past. And now I have to learn how to walk after they unwrap me. I have to learn how to do a lot of things by myself. Learning how to walk, learning how to make new friends was another thing at age 11. That was the beginning of this crucible moment. From age 11 all the way till 40 years old, so I spent 30 years of my life living very differently. It's not a normal life where… so just to backtrack a little bit to gave the listener an idea of how I look like.

Michelle K:

I'm 4 feet, 4 inches tall, very short, very petite. This has been the same height since I was in elementary school, because the accident actually required the doctor to go back and perform a lot of different surgeries, so I had a lot of scars on my leg. And with that, something must have happened and inhibited the way that I was growing. I had not grown since when I was 11, the same height as I was 11. Growing into adulthood, being with the same height, it created a lot of challenges for me.

Michelle K:

There's moment where I go to school, I can't reach stuff on the shelf. When you're a kid, that's okay because people will… adult will just reach over and grab it for you. But when you reach over to adulthood or when you're in your first job, and I remember my first job, I work in a pharmacy where the counter is taller than me. In order to me to work like everyone else, I have to use a step stool, I have to reach to the top. There's a lot of climbing. There's a lot of physical strenuous activity that I need to be able to do in addition to all the other responsibility that I have. That's quite challenging.

Michelle K:

And I could never figure out why when you walk into a grocery store, all the essential items would be on the very top shelf rather than on the bottom shelf, that I never figured out. That's also really very, extremely essential challenge for me because I need to buy essentials and I can never reach to the top. And there's something about asking that always frightens me in the past. I never liked to ask people what to do or help me with things. What ended up happening is if I need to reach the toilet paper on the top, I can't do that. I was just using an alternative rather than asking, putting myself out there and ask.

Michelle K:

That's 30 years of my life growing like that. During that time, I was also battling with what's going on in the inside, because as adolescent, as I grow into adolescent, I was experiencing a lot of that peer pressure where people are dressing up, all these girls they're looking very pretty. They started to wear… it was during the ‘80s, so I don't know if you guys remember the ‘80s, the hair.

Gary S:

I had hair in the ‘80s, so.

Michelle K:

The hair, the mini skirt and I wanted to look exactly like that, and that was one of my dream, wanting to look that way when I go out. When I'm in a social group, when I'm with my friends, when we hang out, I want to dress like that, but I couldn't because with my leg, the way that the surgeon was performing, the doctor had told me that, “Michelle, from 11 years old, after the surgery, you have to wear these metal bracelet because as you're growing, we don't want you to grow your bone into a deformity.” I was given a pair of really ugly metal bracelet that I was supposed to wear up until the age of 18.

Michelle K:

But by age of 16, I was struggling with the look. I said to myself, “You know what? I'm not going to wear these. These are too ugly. I want to take it off.” I decided I was going to take it off, I took it off. And the minute I took it off, I started to use my body weight all on top of my leg. That created pressure and as I'm walking, it started to hurt my back. And by the time I reached my college, I noticed that I could no longer walk comfortably without any assistance. For the longest time, my mom was my crutch. She goes everywhere I go. I always hold onto her hand. She goes where I go.

Michelle K:

Once I got into graduate school, I had to live in the dorm. I went when off and left home, I started to live in the dorm. I couldn't take my mom anymore, so I got to figure out a way to somehow walk. My doctor told me, “Well, this is time, basically, at this point, your leg is so disfigured. If you don't use a crutch to walk, you're not going to make it.” I said, “Okay, fine.” I started to use two arm crutches. Instead of holding on to my mom, I used arm crutches. And being short is one thing, it's already a challenge. Now I have to deal with two arm crutches, holding on. I have no hand to hold anything else.

Michelle K:

A lot of times when I go out, it's a matter of how do I strap things on my body so I can carry groceries. How can I use my body so that I can carry things that I need to carry with my hand? And when I see people going to a coffee shop and I get so envy of them because they have the ability of holding their coffee in one hand and looking at their phone at the other. I don't have that luxury. I have two crutches and I can't do neither one of them. I often have to stop either to get my phone, put my crutches down or one or the other. I couldn't do both. And I get really jealous of people having the ability to do that.

Michelle K:

And that was something that I was really struggling with for 30 years of my life because I want to look normal. I want to have that life that everyone else has. Being able to go to a store and reaching to the top without asking people for help. I wanted to dress up pretty in my clothes so that when I go out people will say, “Michelle, you're beautiful.” That first impression I never had, the first impression that we all value. Even during job interview, we look at someone, we look at the first impression. I always thought that that's a luxury that I don't have because I don't have that first appearance.

Warwick F:

Wow, that's an incredible story. And I want to go back a bit. And before age 11, you were probably just a typical girl, had a lot of friends. I'm guessing you've always been a happy kind of person in your nature.

Michelle K:

I was a happy, happy baby, my mom said.

Warwick F:

I can imagine. When that happened, I mean, sometimes there's anger and resentment, like depending on your beliefs, God or some spiritual force, why did you let that happen? Maybe if my friend hadn't waved to me, I would have kept going or why didn't this car see me? And did you go through a cycle of anger and resentment, and how could this have happened?

Michelle K:

I did. I absolutely did. And I thought if my mom had come just a minute earlier or she hasn't run late that day, maybe all of this wouldn't happen. Or maybe if I were to just wait just one second more before I start walking across the street, then maybe this wouldn't have happened. I went through that period initially, at least for a good 10, 15 years of my life, thinking why does it have to be me? Why is it just me that happened? I have two other siblings. I have a brother and a sister, and I'm thinking, “Why couldn't it just happened to them? Why does it have to have happened to me? What is it about me? Why did it happen to me?”

Warwick F:

Why does the world not like me? I mean, you used the word normal before, which is we all want to fit in. It's just part of being human. You want to be liked. You said growing up in the ‘80s, you want to be seen as pretty, be able to wear all the fashions and just like your friends. And it's like, “Well, why can't I be normal like my friends? Why can't I be like everybody else? How has this fair?” I mean it just, the comment you made, “Why can't I hold a cup of coffee in one hand, a phone in the other? I mean, is that too much to ask? It's like I'm not asking for, I don't know, a million dollars and a beautiful house. I just want a normal life.” Right?

Warwick F:

And so, for that must've been not just the accident, but the years after and grad school, and do I have to have my mother around me. I mean, I'm sure you love your mother, but can't I go somewhere without that? And so that must have been… it sounds like it was years and years of dealing with that frustration. It wasn't just the first few years, it was how many years would you say that frustration of just the-

Michelle K:

It was a good 30 years and I just wanted to be normal. And not being normal to me means that you have the normal body shape that we all… we flipped through the textbook, the biology textbook, this is how a woman or a man should look. There's physically, they look identical, they look perfect, their legs are straight. That's normal for me. And that's how I define normal. And that's what I believe normal should be. When I see myself in the mirror, I actually felt really ashamed of my body because this is not what I was taught. This is not what I see around me. This is not normal.

Warwick F:

It's almost like I cannot be happy and fulfilled unless I'm normal. Was that the mindset that you're going through? And therefore, it's impossible for me to have a happy, fulfilling life because I'm not normal, as you looked at it.

Michelle K:

Yes.

Warwick F:

And so, I mean, I'm sure a number of listeners maybe have had physical challenges, there are all sorts of challenges that make you feel like nobody can love me and accept me. And it's all from physical challenges to abuse, to you name it, there's all sorts of things that people feel like nobody can possibly love or want me kind of thing. How did that change for you? Because there are certain things like physically, I imagine that's a difficult thing. I mean, certainly you probably had to accept that you can't actually change, but how did you manage to combat that and just change how you thought about things?

Gary S:

And especially if I can add here, especially from an emotional perspective, one of the things, Michelle, that strikes me about your story, your crucible experience is that it is both physical and very devastating, and also emotionally very devastating. One of the things that you and I talked about in advance of our interview time here and the note I took is that romantic relationships were very difficult. There's an emotional aspect of this that is in very real ways as painful in different ways, but real ways as painful as the physical aspect of it.

Gary S:

To Warwick's question, how did you overcome that both from a physical and emotional sense? And I guess for listeners who face some of those same things, there's a physical crucible and emotions tied to it. Which one was perhaps more difficult to overcome?

Michelle K:

I would definitely say the emotional is the most difficult to overcome. Because a physical challenge, like what I did was I used a step stool. These physical external challenges can overcome by accommodating with a step stool or with something else, or with a crutch for nowaday, I reach over and just push things to the edge. External physical challenge is really easy to overcome, but emotional challenges, what I find that really were the core of the energy, the majority of the time that we're spending dwelling on.

Michelle K:

And I remember one of the incident was I was in my 30s and that was during the time when I first got into relationship. And I remember I was just sitting there one day and there was an empty chair with a man's jacket on the chair on the back. And I was just looking at the jacket and looking at the chair, and I started to crying. I was crying. And there's an enormous sense of loneliness that was inside that was coming out for me, because for the longest time I was longing for someone to love me. I was longing to be loved, to be appreciated and to have that love be returned to me when I send it out.

Michelle K:

But when I'm not getting that reciprocate of love and caring from another person, from another man, I felt extremely hurt and alone. And that was the emotion I was going through from ever since I started to explore the relationship side. And there's so much of interpersonal relationship that we deal with every day. What I've learned is that it says a lot about… it's teaching a lot about who you are. When I was in those moments, and perhaps this is something that the listener can and find value in, is that in order to overcome your emotional challenge, many times you have to be able to recognize it. You have to allow it, you have to accept it.

Michelle K:

And my condition, my physical challenge was something I needed to accept. This is how I am and this is who I am. This is how I'm going to look for the rest of my life. I can sit here and not accept it, and keep having resistance, keep having that fighting emotion and keep wanting to understand why has it done to me, and keep wanting, exploring it in that victim thinking mentality or mindset. Or, I can accept that this had happened. It's very unfortunate, but it happened. I can accept this is how I look and I can embrace every part of me because there's something else other than, greater than what we see on the outside. It's not just the physical appearance, it's not just what we see externally. It's what's going on in the inside. There's a light that's inside each one of us. That's what we need to accept.

Warwick F:

I mean that is so profound about focusing on the light that's within us, accepting the things we can't change. How did you do that? Because as you said, I think it was like, what, 20, 30 years of battling with this. I mean, it's not easy. I mean, you're an intelligent person. You're somebody that looks like when they want to achieve something, they do. I mean, you strike me as that kind of person. It's not like you're somebody that just sits there and does nothing. How did you get to that point where you could actually accept the physical limitations and change how you thought about yourself? How did you do that?

Michelle K:

One of my biggest challenge in this life is my physical challenge, right? I grew up 30 years of being physically challenged and this is my limitation. And part of it has to do with the word that you used, combat. And when you're in that combat mode, you realize there's something that you need to fight. What is it that you need to fight for? And for me, what I need to fight for is to find a light, to find my purpose, find the reason why I am here. I started to tap into that anger, that resentment. I want to know why.

Michelle K:

And one day I remember I was waking up and suddenly, I was getting so tired of living this life. I told myself, “All right, so here you are. This is your physical challenge. What are you going to do about it?” I was asking, having a conversation with myself, I said, “What are you going to do about it?” My answer was, “Well, if physical challenge is my challenge, guess what? I guess I have no choice but challenge my physical challenge.” I decided that in 2016, I'd never been to a gym before. I never signed up to a gym, don't know how to work the easy equipment. I was really afraid of breaking them. And being myself, getting myself broken. I was afraid to go into the gym.

Michelle K:

But in 2016, I decided I'm going to go sign up in the gym. I did that. That was my number one, my first step of wanting to find out what would it take for me to fight in this. I went and signed up to a gym, and then the second thing I did was I hired myself a personal trainer because obviously, I don't know how to work these machines, so I need someone to show me, to teach me how to do it. I hired a professional, I hired a personal coach. And then the third thing I did, at that time all my friends, they were talking about how amazing it is to do hiking, to go out and climb the mountain, and going to Peru.

Michelle K:

And so, I could never participate in those conversations with them because it was some part of me that I just couldn't do. One of my goal is actually to be able to participate in those conversation. That same year, 2016, I made a promise to myself, I'm going to promise myself that I can do this and I'm going to do whatever it takes to hike. I started hiking that year. And the other goal that I had was I don't want just hiking, I don't want to just go up to any mountain, I want to go up to Machu Picchu and I want to do the Inca Trail.

Michelle K:

The Inca Trail is 26 miles and it's a four-day hike. And each day you have to just camp out and you have to rough it out. There's no shower, there's no toilet whatsoever. You really have to rough it up. And so, in addition to just being rough it out there, I flew myself to Peru in that same year, in September. I flew myself to Peru and I don't speak Spanish, by the way. I flew myself there and I had my two crutches and I brought my two pink arm crutches because it has to be pink, it has to be pink. I brought my pink crutches, went up to the mountain, I got food poisoning the day before the hike, check myself to the infirmary the night before.

Michelle K:

And I remember calling my sister. I said, “I'm really sick. I'm in the hospital right now. I don't know, can you talk me out of it?” My sister was like, “Yeah, you need to come home. Come home today.” And I thought about it, right? And I was, “No, I made it this far. I'm going to go.” After we hung up the phone, I told my sister, “I'm going to go.” And lo and behold, the next day, I went out to Machu Picchu, started my first day of hike. On the first day, it was all uphill. It was all inclined. I remember I had a lot of difficulty because the high-altitude syndrome, it was real.

Warwick F:

Right.

Michelle K:

Yeah, it was real. And I remember I was getting tired. I was dehydrated and so my immune system was kind of down. The first day was a struggle and I barely made it to the final camp that night. And my team leader, the tool guy who was with us, he sat me down and he asked me, because past the first day if I made a decision to come back, then there was still a chance that I can come back. He sat me down and he said, “Michelle, I know you were struggling and I know this is something that you want to do, but you were leaving behind you had to a difficult time to catch up. What do you want to do?” He gave the option to me and I thought about it. I said, “Thank you. I appreciate that you're letting me know that after this point, there's no turning back.” I said, “I appreciate that, but I want to continue.”

Michelle K:

Every morning after the first day, so starting on the second day, every morning, I will wake up at five o'clock in the morning, I would start my hike. I would put my headlight on. It's still dark outside. You can't really see the steps. I would put on my headlight and I would start my hike. Every day, five o'clock, I would start my hike. And I can barely just made it to meet everybody around dinner time, around lunchtime, around break time. And all these people that I met during that trip, it's been an amazing journey.

Michelle K:

And so, I did that in September 2016, and the very last day of the Inca Trail hike, we were at the point of the Sun Gate. This is the final entry point before we get into the Machu Picchu, so I was looking at the steps, the final 50 steps at Machu Picchu. I looked up, it was 60 degrees angle or 70, yeah. I was looking up, and I was, “Oh my God.” I wasn't sure what have I done? How am I going to finish these last 50 steps with my two crutches? And the steps were really narrow and small. I stood in front of the Sun Gate, I was looking up and I thought about all my life for this very moment. “Okay, I'm here. What do I have to do to finish this?”

Michelle K:

I gave my two crutches to my team leader, took off my day pack, hand the day pack to him. I say, “Here, you lead me to the top.” I sent him to the top. I got down to my knees and legs, I started to crawl because that was the only safe way for me to go to the top. I got down to my hands and knee, I started crawling every step, every step, one step at a time. And by the time I went to the top, my team leader was clapping. I turned around and there was someone else taking a picture. I took my hand up, that victory gesture. I was in the air. It felt so accomplished.

Michelle K:

Then I turned around, I started approaching to meet everybody and my teammate, and all these other travelers at this big platform at the Sun Gate. I walked in, everyone stood up and they were clapping, they were cheering for me. And I actually got a pin from Canada. It was an honorary citizen. I still have my pin. I still have my pin. And it was amazing. And that was the moment that I start to realize that I am capable. Whatever it is going in front of me, that I am capable as long as I set my mind to it.

Warwick F:

Well, it seems like that moment was pivotal on your journey, that changing how you think about things. I mean, there's the internal and there's the external, exactly sort of busting into the picture here.

Gary S:

Hi Buster.

Warwick F:

For the listeners who are listening to it, there's a beautiful old Tabby cat that just emerged. But Michelle, there's the internal and there's the external, as I said, to think about this story. There's externally, you are having an enormous impact on those around you. I'm not quite sure which to start with but just maybe on the external. You felt alone, like nobody wants to see me, but yet you had a whole bunch of cheerleaders, people that were with you. What did it feel like or as you looked at their faces, they were on team Michelle, right?

Michelle K:

Yeah.

Warwick F:

They were your team, they wanted you to win, they wanted you to succeed. Talk about the effect that you had on them and how it felt back to you.

Michelle K:

It was a really strange feeling because when I was in that moment, when I was so busy caught up in my own misery and tragedy, and thinking that the world, just all the bad things just happen to me, when I'm so busy tied in thinking about that, it was really hard to believe that I had any impact on others. Actually, that's what my teammate had to called were Team Michelle, and we actually celebrate it with a cake on my last day of the trip that says Team Michelle.

Warwick F:

Oh really?

Michelle K:

It was really hard for me to believe that because I was so busy thinking about my own misery. And when you start changing your mind, when that shift starts to happen and you realize that you are not alone in this. There's so many people around you who celebrate you, who cheer for you, who stood out for you and who clap for you. Now they really see you as the light at the end of their tunnel. It was a complete different experience for me and it was eye-opening to really stress seeing them for the first time.

Warwick F:

It's almost like if you let them, they want to be with you, they want to not just support you, they want to cheer for you if you'll let them, and you could see that. And then just it's often we think of physical limitations and there are limitations, but yet it seems like you did what most people would say is impossible. Machu Picchu, I don't know how many thousands of feet height is, but it's very high altitude, sickness that a lot of people get. You got these 50 steps, 60-degree incline. It's like most people would say somebody with your challenges and crutches, it's impossible. Give it up. You're going to hurt yourself. But yet you overcame that physical limitation.

Warwick F:

Talk about the feeling you had when you're on top of those steps and you'd done what most people thought was impossible. What were you feeling at that moment when you'd achieve the impossible, seemingly?

Michelle K:

I was crying, the minute I reached to the top, and to answer your question, it's 14,000 feet high.

Warwick F:

Oh wow.

Michelle K:

That's the altitude.

Gary S:

Oh, just 14,000 feet.

Michelle K:

And when I reached the highest peak, I broke down and cry. And I think a lot of it has to do with that spirituality, that feeling that there's something greater than myself, there's something bigger than myself. And when I look around, the whole environment, the whole world, the mountain, there's something bigger than just me. It helped me to lift my thinking away from that egocentric me, me, me, me, me, to a broader view of I am not in this alone. There's so many people around me who celebrated me and there are so many people who's going through the same journey, and they're struggling too. I may not see their physical struggles, but they're struggling too.

Michelle K:

And on my journey, I remember there's a guy, the perfectly well, very fit. He probably worked out a lot and he was just kept throwing up. Every 10 seconds, 10 minutes, he was throwing up on the side and it was a race between him and I, because he has to stop and throw up, and I have to stop and catch up. It made me realize that yes, my struggle was the physical challenge, this is my limitation. But for someone else, it could be something that's going on inside. There's a storm that they are experiencing on the inside and I don't see that. It's not my place to judge them of what they're going through.

Gary S:

Right. This is a perfect time, I think, to jump in and read something, Michelle, that you wrote in that form I talked about that we have guests fill out. And I have to tell you that we have had every guest that we've had on fill this out, and yours is one of the most inspirational ones I've read. But you said this and I think it summarizes your story perfectly, not just from your perspective, but also, I hope from the perspective of listeners who have different realities to their crucible experiences, but the emotions are the same.

Gary S:

But this is what you wrote in talking about how to think about a crucible, and you just described the way that you did that when you were going through yours and when you were bouncing back from it. But here's what you wrote, in part what you wrote. “So what if this very moment, whatever this setback you are experiencing was meant to be something bigger than yourself? What if this is the universe's gift to refine and polish the diamond within you? What if you are meant to find the gem, and that is what makes you different, unique and extraordinary? How would you choose to see your setback? How would you choose to see your tragedy? The misfortune that measured only a small fraction of our entire lifetime.”

Gary S:

That is a beautiful summary of not just your story, but the story of a lot of folks who are listening right now. And listeners hear that and realize that gift was not a word, I'm sure, Michelle chose lightly. That your crucible can be a gift from the universe, from your spiritual tradition. Can be a gift to help you realize things you're capable of and to help you realize what you were, as Warwick talks about, what your true purpose is here on earth.

Warwick F:

Yeah, so great point. Michelle, talk about how what you went through can be seen as a gift, which for most people they just said, what are you talking about, Michelle? Not getting at all the hidden gem. I mean, there's a lot of profound words in it. Talk about how your thinking changed and your message, frankly, to the world. Talk about that message in your perspective.

Michelle K:

I think each and every one of us are a gift. We are a gift to this world. For me it's I'm really good at doing medicine. I'm really good with pharmacology. I'm a pharmacist, right? That's what I do. And that's a talent that was given to me. And for someone else, they could be a really good engineer. They could be someone who has a lot of analytical thinking. Each one of us are very unique and there's a purpose in our life that we came to this earth for, and that's how we serve to the world. Right?

Michelle K:

And when I talk about gift and each one of us being the diamond, you have to believe, you have to start to believe that you are this thing that we dig out from all the dirt, and what's behind all that dirt, it's actually something very beautiful, very profound, and very special, and very unique. Because there's something inside of you that makes you who you are, that defines who you are, that makes you perfectly different than everyone else. And that is the gem. That is the diamond of you. You are the diamond, and you have to believe that because that's who you are.

Michelle K:

And until you believe that, and until you have that grind in your brain, in your memory, in your mind, everything else in this world just have that impermanent sense, right? Everything that happens to us are just experience.

Warwick F:

Talk about how you began to see yourself as the diamond, because that aged 11, aged 28, 30, that I don't think was where you were at. What did that look like for Michelle, for Michelle Kuei, for looking at yourself as the diamond? How do you change that thinking and what did that look like for you?

Michelle K:

Before I saw myself as wanting to be normal, I just want to be normal. Whatever that normal is that's acceptable to the society, I want you to look just like everybody else. I meet you, I want you to be able to do things on my own. I want you to be able to hold a coffee, a cup of coffee in my hand. I want to be normal, which is fine, but living in normal, that's not who we are. And I keep emphasizing that you have a purpose in life. What is your purpose? There's a reason why we're all here on this earth. And with that purpose, you need to be able to serve.

Michelle K:

Do you want to be normal? Do you want to remain and just being enough? And our purpose is not just being enough. And I think a lot of people, a lot of listener might resonate with this because we're constantly thinking about, “Oh, it's not enough. We're not good enough. We're not pretty enough.” Well, why even bother settling for enough? What if the idea is that you are more than enough? What if the whole idea is for you to find your purpose, find your strength so that you can use that purpose, use that strength to serve others who needs your help? Whatever that strength that you have, that is your purpose, that is your gem, that's your diamond.

Michelle K:

For me, the way that I found it and how did I begin to see myself as a diamond is I start to realize, and this is actually just happened recently, I finally had an aha moment just a couple of weeks ago and I spent all my life wanting to be normal, and my book was talking about normal, like being perfectly normal. But I'm here, I am here in the middle of the road and that was my past. I've already done that. I am more than normal. I climbed Machu Picchu, I did all that. I'm able to hike. I did all these things, but that's not normal. That's not normal at all.

Michelle K:

People can't do that. People can't just wake up one night and they say, “You know what? I'm going to go high Machu Picchu.” No, that's not normal at all. I'd done something very extraordinary that not many people can do. Why not accept yourself for your extraordinary? Why not accept yourself for who you are? You are more than just enough. Why not accept yourself for the gift that was given to you? And then that was my aha moment. I said, “HUH,” so I lived all my life just wanting to be normal. But in fact, there's nothing normal about me. I'm really abnormal. I'm unique, I'm different, and I'm embracing it. I'm going to live it, I'm going to love it.

Warwick F:

And that's a profound message that we all want to fit in, be normal. But I guess why be normal? I mean, as you said, we're all unique, extraordinary in some sense. We're all designed a unique way, with certain backgrounds, talents, skills. We all have a different purpose. Normal is overrated. Why be normal? Why not just embrace being extraordinary, embrace being different? Because everybody's different. Why fit in? Fitting in is limiting, you know? And it sounded like your whole attitude to life changed.

Warwick F:

Talk about how you do pharmacy, but I know you do a lot of coaching and writing, and speaking. Talk about what is, it's a word that's tough to embrace for most of us, but talk about in what ways is Michelle unique, a gem, a diamond, even extraordinary, if you will. How does that manifest itself? What is your purpose in the world, do you feel?

Michelle K:

My purpose in the world is to inspire. I do everything. One of the things that I do very often is to speak about my story and the journey that I came through, and how I was in that place of feeling sorry about myself and just playing small, from the fact that today I see myself as a diamond. It sounds very like I give myself a lot of credit, but I truly feel that I am the diamond. And in order to have this contrary journey, there's a breakthrough moment. There's an aha moment that I finally said, “You know what? I'm going to step in. I'm going to start doing this.” That is my inspiration for everyone and my purpose is to inspire those to start to lead for themselves.

Michelle K:

And I think self-leadership is such a very important process and message that the world needs to learn and to hear. Because through self-leadership, you become the best version of yourself. And when you are the best version of yourself, you start to influence all these others around you. You start setting up example for them. You start showing them the way to lead their life. You're not telling them how to lead their life. You're showing them that it is possible through this crucible moment that you can find your way and make yourself shine, make yourself stand out.

Warwick F:

And what you're saying is so profound. I think one of the things I've also found in my own life and I think some or many others have, is as you take your focus off yourself on to other people, how can I help others? How can I inspire them? How can I… it's not just overcoming your own demons or your own self-limiting thoughts for yourself, by doing that, you help to inspire others. It's almost like the, I wouldn't say the challenge is greater, but the challenge is even more inspiring. It's what is the purpose of getting up? And part of it is you want to inspire others.

Warwick F:

And so, as you're focusing on others, it helps you feel less focused on yourself and how you look. Because when you focus on others, there's not as much room to think about yourself, right? There's what I call a healing balm, like a healing ointment, if you will, by focusing on others. Have you felt that just within your own spirit, as you focused on others? There's a healing component to that, right?

Michelle K:

Absolutely. And when we start looking at the bigger picture, that's where the healing comes in. Because you're no longer focusing on the wellbeing of yourself, you're focusing more on the wellbeing of the society, the community within your family. You still have that broader view of life.

Gary S:

We're at the point of the show where we're going to have to begin to not land the plane yet, but I think the captain's turned on the fasten seatbelts sign. We're starting our descent a little bit. But one thing to follow up on that point, Michelle, one of the really a blessing in getting to know you even before we started this interview, is you are very connected on social media. And after we first talked, you sent me a friend request on Facebook, and I have so enjoyed watching you live your life and the way that you live your life, and the way that you encourage people with exactly what you just talked about. Being focused on bringing joy to people, being focused on not what limits us, but the things that we can do.

Gary S:

And one of the things I said at the outset when I read your bio, the last line, if you're looking for a Michele, odds are you'll find her at the gym. There's a video you posted on social media a couple of days ago and it speaks to this entire story that we've been talking about. On one side, there's a photograph of you with your arm crutches, somewhat at some point after your accident. Obviously, you're older but you're still using those to get around quite a bit. And then the video is you-

Michelle K:

Doing a jump rope.

Gary S:

Right? You're skipping rope and you're not just skipping rope like I'd skip rope. Okay? You're skipping rope like Sylvester Stallone in Rocky. You are skipping rope like a prize fighter. You are skipping rope fast. You are skipping rope well. I mean, it is in 45 seconds, hugely, hugely inspirational. In the time that we have left, first of all, let listeners know how they can connect with you to maybe hear some of the things that you can help them along their route as they're going through their bounce back from their crucible.

Michelle K:

They can definitely find me on my website at elevatelifecoaching.org, or if they like, they can definitely follow me on Instagram, which I'm very active on Instagram. It's a Elevate Life Coach.

Warwick F:

Michelle, you have such an inspiring story, that it's one thing to have a physical limitation, but you've changed your whole perspective. You view yourself as, I don't know, to me, a lot better than normal. You view yourself as, as we all should, as a diamond, uniquely created. We all have extraordinary attributes. You've changed the way you're thinking and your focus on the helping and inspiring others. I mean, rather than being normal, you're somebody that people admire. You're somebody that people look up to. I know that you probably think, “Well, how could anybody look up to me?”

Michelle K:

They're probably looking down on me.

Warwick F:

I'm 4-foot something but yet people do look up to you. In that moment when you were on top of those stairs at Machu Picchu, people were saying, “This is one extraordinary woman. This is somebody I admire. This is somebody that can teach me a lot.” It's very difficult to change your way of thinking, but you've done… I mean, that is miraculous. That is extraordinary. You are, in a sense, a role model.

Michelle K:

Thank you.

Warwick F:

Helping people see that we all have limitations. Most people feel bad about themselves. I mean, if you take off the mask, give them truth serum, most people do or many people do. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but not much. But yet you're giving people hope. Your limitations are clear. For many, it's not so clear, it's internal, but you've changed the way you're thinking. You give hope that we all can change the way we think and focus on helping others, and using our extraordinary qualities we all have to help others. You have an amazing story, an amazing mission. Thank you for what you bring to the world.

Michelle K:

Thank you.

Gary S:

And one last thing I have to ask because I'm going to go back to this form that we had you fill out, and we ask every guest the same question at the end. If we could only ask you one question, what would that question be? And no offense to our previous guests, but your answer to that question is the best one I've seen. And this is what you said when we asked if there was only one question we could ask you, what would you want it to be? And I'd love for you to answer this question. Here's how you answered our question and then you can answer your own question. Fill in the blank. You said the world needs what? What does the world need, Michelle?

Michelle K:

The world needs more love.

Gary S:

On that note, listeners. See, I'm sitting there thinking it's going to be a nice long. No, it's very inspiring. And when you can make me like at a loss for words, you've done something, so bravo. But thank you truly, thank you truly for that. I mean, because that summarizes what you're talking about, I think. And listeners, thank you for joining us today on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. There's a few things from Michelle's story I was taking notes on as she was saying them that I hope you heard as well, and I want to accent again before we go because I think there's some good takeaways.

Gary S:

There are far more good takeaways from her story than the three I've written down, but here's three that as you look at your own crucible experiences, as you look at your own desire to bounce back from those to embrace your vision and live a life of significance, here's three things that Michelle has talked about today that I think you can apply to your own life. The first thing is that it's true that crucibles can change the things you love to do and they can even change your ability to do certain things, but you can conquer so much of that with a positive attitude and positive action.

Gary S:

The second takeaway I think from Michelle's story, and this is a powerful thing, and she said it herself here in our conversation that it's hard, but press through how hard it is and do it. Second takeaway point, ask for help. The key to overcoming crucibles, Warwick has talked about it many times, is having a team of people around you, formal or informal, professional or personal. Ask for help. There are people out there who want to help you, who are willing to help you and who are able to help you.

Gary S:

And then the third point, I think that all of us would do well to follow in our crucible experiences, that in order to overcome emotional challenges, Michelle talked about it in depth. In order to overcome emotional challenges tied to your crucible, you have to accept the reality of your crucible. Pretending it's not there, pretending it didn't happen, pretending there aren't repercussions of it isn't going to work. You have to accept the reality of it. But don't camp out there, like we said at the outset. Let it inspire you to action, both in the way that you think about yourself and others, in the way that you act in to yourself and to others. Yes, it's real, but you can make it. You can find the diamond inside.

Gary S:

That's all the time we have, but thank you again for joining us on Beyond the Crucible. We'd ask you for a quick favor, listener, if you can do it right now on whatever podcast app you're listening to this show on, click the Subscribe button. What that will do is make sure that you don't miss any episodes of what we talk about here on Beyond the Crucible. It will also help us to reach more people with inspiring stories, with hopeful stories, with stories filled with joy and laughter like Michelle's. A quick subscribe, share it with friends. That will be a huge benefit to, I think, your friends and a huge benefit to us as we can share the realities of how people are overcoming their crucibles and the hope and healing that comes from that.

Gary S:

Until we're together next time, remember that crucible experiences are real. They do happen. They can be devastating, but they are not. Michelle Kuei's story proves that they are not the end of your story. They are the beginning of a new chapter of your story if you choose to dive into them and learn the lessons of them. And that chapter of your new story can be the best one yet because it points you toward, leads you to a life of significance.

This has been a banner year for Crucible Leadership, so founder Warwick Fairfax discusses his gratitude for all that’s happened in 2021 – from the release of his book, to some life-changing insights from our podcast guests, to his excitement – mixed with a little surprise – over the appreciative reception he’s experienced on the first leg of his speaking tour.  Why are we taking the time to revisit the highlights of the past 12 months? Because Warwick believes gratitude is one of the most important keys to unlocking a life of significance – and rocket fuel for tackling new opportunities to propel ourselves forward for the next 12 months.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Warwick F:

One venue we're at, all of the books went and I don't know, stacks of people signed up to get a book. And there was a line, seemingly a mile long for students in one location at the end of the day wanting me to sign the book. It blew my mind. I mean, it was just, so the reaction by all folks, business folks, but certainly, students, it's like it felt like this book mattered to them. My story the lessons learned about living a life of significance. As we say, often you're not defined by your worst day, how you can get over that worst day and just live a life of significance a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. I mean, it was such a blessing to see that my book was helping people.

Gary S:

What you just heard was not a man taking a victory lap or giving and accepting high fives, puffing out his chest over his accomplishments. No. What you just heard was Warwick, the host of this podcast, talking about just one of the blessings he feels has come his way in the year, quickly drawing to a close. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger his co-host. And what you'll hear this week is a conversation between me and Warwick, in which he expresses his gratitude for all that's happened for Crucible Leadership in 2021.

Gary S:

From the release of his book, to some life changing insights from our podcast guests to the excitement, mixed with a little bit of surprise, over the appreciative reception he's experienced on the first leg of his speaking tour. Why are we taking the time to revisit the highlights of the past 12 months? Because Warwick believes that gratitude is one of the most important keys to unlocking a life of significance and rocket fuel for tackling new opportunities to propel ourselves forward for the next 12 months.

Warwick F:

This time of year, with the holidays coming up, we've got Thanksgiving, Hanukkah, Christmas, New Year. Many folks are going to be with families in the US and just different parts of the world. And as you're with families, it's a time to pause and reflect. And hopefully, I think, in an ideal sense, it's a time to be grateful, to be thankful and really, just to count your blessings, so to speak. So, as I look back on this last year, certainly personally, but definitely professionally with Crucible Leadership, I truly feel blessed.

Warwick F:

So often, life is so busy. I think human nature is such we tend to focus more on what irritates us or our deficiencies or challenging relationships, all of which is totally normal. And when a good thing happens, we go, "Oh, that's nice," and we just promptly forget it and move on. So, it takes more work to think of our blessings than our trials. Trials bring pain. Pain forces us to remember and not forget or left to its own devices. So, I think it's a good exercise to focus on how we're blessed in this last year and don't just skip over it. So, that's kind of what we're going to do here. It's going to be some broader lessons learned for I think all of us, but part of the springboard is just the sense of feeling blessed in Crucible Leadership and what's been happening. So, that's kind of the thought, it's just taking stock of our blessings and being grateful.

Gary S:

If I had to summarize the subjects that we're going to discuss, I'll channel my mother's Southern heritage and I'll say that it's all about, this episode is all about blessings and lessons, right? We're going to talk about blessings and we're going to talk about the lessons that those blessings have imparted to us as we look to move beyond our crucible. And we hope listener, that they'll also be encouraging and equipping to you.

Gary S:

An interesting point, Warwick that you just made there about particularly around the holidays. Thanksgiving has passed by the time listeners hear this. The other holidays, Christmas and New Year's, are coming up. But you mentioned that we can easily focus on the opposite of blessings - what we don't have, what's gone wrong, worry those kinds of things. Why do you think that's both so common and why do you think that's dangerous as we go into this time of year?

Warwick F:

Yeah, it's a good question. I think as you focus on your trials, challenging relationships, I mean, for some gathering with family in the holidays, is a blessed event. For others, they look forward to it with dread or maybe they've lost a loved one. And so, gathering together with the Christmas dinner table or Thanksgiving, it can be a time to remember what you don't have. That loved one is no longer there - a husband, a wife, partner, parents, grandparents. It's all understandable, but grieving is a part of certainly the process, but if you just focus on trials, you tend to get stuck.

Warwick F:

And if you want to live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, which is what we're all about here at Crucible Leadership, at a certain point, you don't ignore the grief, you honor those who are no longer with us. But you also have to, not move on, but in a sense, maybe honor their memory by living life to the fullest. And part of living life to the fullest is just being grateful, being thankful. Because counting your blessings to use that oft used aphorism, it does give you sort of rocket fuel. It's like turbo power to help you really contribute to the world, so it's not just doing it for the sake of it. It's a really important exercise that's both encouraging to you and it can be encouraging to others.

Warwick F:

So, it's a very important thing to do because if you just wallow in your pain, however understandable it is, not only are you not helping yourself, you will typically not help others. And in the extreme when you wallow in your pain, not only is it not helpful to you, you might end up hurting other people, especially those you love, which is never what you want to do. Nobody wants to hurt people they care about. So, grief is a real part of loss and I honor that, but you've got to also count your blessings. You've got to focus on gratitude and what you're grateful for. It's just really important to do that.

Gary S:

And as we talk about at Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible, this idea of did a crucible happen to you or for you, I think what you're saying there is, can you find things that are positive that happened for you. For instance, I mean, I'll just use my example. As we're recording this episode, my father's birthday would have been tomorrow. He passed away this summer, at age 93. It is going to be a difficult day. I can choose to feel bad about that, be sad about that, and I will be. I can live there, camp there, or I can focus on the things not that my father left me, but what my father left me.

Gary S:

I can find those learnings there and use those to, as you have said, calm my spirit, center my soul, give me energy and passion for today. Find those silver linings in the clouds, which we urge people to do through crucibles all the time. That applies as well to this holiday season and to not being knocked down by those emotional things that might tug at us, but pushing through them, learning lessons from them and indeed finding blessing in them.

Warwick F:

Yeah, I mean, it's such a good point. I mean, as we're talking here, Gary, both of us have lost our parents. I had lost my mother a few years ago, 2017. My dad a very long time ago, in early 1987. He was in his 80s when he died. He was a lot older when he had me, so it's easy to focus on a loss and we'll be spending Christmas here in Maryland where we live now, not in Australia and we no longer have the house we grew up in. There's a lot of things we'll never experience, so I could focus on all of that.

Warwick F:

Or I could focus on just wonderful memories of having Christmas Day in Australia in Sydney, which is because Australia is on the other side of the world, it's simply the hottest day of the year, which is obviously different than a lot of North America. And just think of those happy memories. We all have them and just to give you one example one happy memory that I have is Christmas Eve, we would gather in one of the rooms that what was a large house in Sydney. And there was a grand piano there and we would sing in Christmas carols. Well, a lot of people do that, but my younger brother and sister, my parents, we would always have this ritual in which my dad would begin to play the piano with two hands.

Warwick F:

Now at that point growing up, he's in his 60s and 70s, he really hadn't played the piano in I don't know, 50 odd years. He probably was never really that good, so we'd always start off with two hands and he'd always start off with, his favorite Christmas carol was Hark the Herald Angels. So, we'd be like, "Hark," wait, wait a second, hang on, hang on. "The," okay, just a minute. "Herald." And we'd be like, "Dad, okay, just go to one hand." Eventually, he'd go to one hand, and then we get through it. Every single year, it would always be the same. Start off with two hands, couldn't do it.

Warwick F:

And so, that's a happy memory of gathering around the piano singing Christmas carols. And it was it's a happy memory, because it was all so comical with the two hands, go to one hand. So, we all have those memories in our past. So, focus on those happy memories rather than the sense of loss. And I'm sure, obviously, you would have, we all have those memories. I'm sure you do, too. So, focus on those happy memories around this time and why we're blessed rather than the sense of loss.

Gary S:

Absolutely. Moving now into specifically Crucible Leadership territory. Over the last several months, listeners may have picked it up if they've really listened closely to some of the episodes prior to this one. But you've had a kind of a significant shift in your thinking about crucibles vis-à-vis blessings, just over the last several months. Talk about that a little bit as we then sort of transition into what are some of the blessings that we've enjoyed in 2021.

Warwick F:

Yeah, and we'll talk more about it as we progress, but one of the interesting things is, we've had maybe like 90 plus episodes of our podcast Beyond the Crucible, 70 plus guests. And one of the things I really enjoy is we learn so much from our guests. We had a Resilience series recently. And, there was a woman, Stacey Copas, Australian woman who was injured in a diving accident, an above ground pool in the suburbs of Sydney. She was about 12, I think, at that time, somewhere around there. And like a lot of kids, they just sort of ignore their parents' advice, which "Don't dive into the pool. It's not that deep." And "Yeah, sure, whatever, mom, dad." She did and she was diagnosed as a quadriplegic.

Warwick F:

That was devastating, as you would expect. She had some substance abuse issues in her teens, but now, she is just this vibrant, happy woman that coaches, that speaks and helps. Actually, coach and speak on resilience and she views what she went through as a gift, almost as a blessing. I mean, nobody would want to go through that kind of crucible or anything. But like what we've picked up from her, and indeed many of our guests, is they obviously don't like what they went through. Whether it was their fault or not their fault, but they're using their pain for a purpose. They're seeing it in terms of a blessing.

Warwick F:

So, I don't know that I ever would have looked back and said what I went through was a blessing before or a gift. I would say a lot, some good things came out of it. I learned a lot. I'm doing what I love. But I think it's been a bit of an evolution in terms of well, maybe, it was a blessing, maybe it was a gift. So, that's certainly been an evolution of my thinking and just the great value of learning from other people. Every human being, I think, has something to teach us, if we will let them. And certainly, I have learned from all our guests and most recently, I certainly learned from Stacey Copas.

Gary S:

And since I am your PR guy as well as the co-host of this show, I think that now gives me the right or the opportunity to put out a press release that says, "He lost $2.25 billion and says it's a gift." Okay, maybe we'll talk more about that. Maybe we'll have to talk more about that, but that would be a headline.

Warwick F:

Indeed.

Gary S:

That would be a headline on a press release that would catch the media's attention, for sure.

Warwick F:

Indeed.

Gary S:

Let's shift a little bit now into a more traditional discussion of what blessing is and sort of the meat and potatoes of what this show is about. And that is 2021 was a pretty phenomenal year for Crucible Leadership, wasn't it?

Warwick F:

Yeah. It's interesting. Part of the genesis of the idea for this episode is recently, we were discussing with our team, "So what happened in 2021?" Because basically, in order to start thinking of plans for 2022, standard strategic planning kind of process is what worked well? What could have worked better? What are some of the strengths? What are some of the areas we want to improve? Standard stuff that most businesses go through periodically. And that is a springboard for, "Okay, so what we want to do utilizing our strengths, for instance, for next year? Because there's a lot of things we could do, but what do we want to focus on.

Warwick F:

So as we were having this discussion and going down the list of the things that happened in 2021, it's easy to forget them in a sense of when you're in the trenches focusing on, "Okay, what do we need to do today? How do we fix this or that? What are we going to do tomorrow?" It's easy to get lost in the weeds in the trenches and day-to-day hustle and bustle of activities.

Warwick F:

But as we were going through the list of things that happened, it's like, "Oh, my gosh. I do indeed feel blessed." I do indeed feel blessings have been showered on me from my perspective, being a person of faith to the Lord. I have a lot to be grateful for, a lot to be thankful for. And so, I did in a sense as I was in the middle of that meeting, just a few days ago, I just felt blessed.

Warwick F:

And obviously, the biggest one is the book, Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance. That was in some sense, you could say 30 plus years in the making from the day of the takeover, 1987. It was probably at least 12 years in the making. As listeners would know, I've often told the story. In 2008, my pastor wanted, in sort of church we go to in Annapolis, Maryland, he was giving a sermon on the life of David, being a righteous man falsely persecuted by King Saul. I'm not David, but I gave a 10-, 12-minute talk.

Warwick F:

Somehow people felt like my story and the lessons learned was very helpful. Hence, at that point, I felt led to write a lessons learned book. It took years to write and then years to get it published. You've got to build a brand, create a following. And that culminated in a book deal with Mount Tabor Media and Morgan James. And as of October 19, this fall, it was published. Well, that's at least 12 plus years in the making, if not more, depending on how you look at it.

Warwick F:

And I feel blessed to actually have a book. It looks good. It went through a lot of, some editing, which you were a part of, and I feel good about it. I feel like this is a book I'm actually proud of. I think it's something that can really help people, but when you have that kind of book and it's taken so long to get there, you cannot help but be blessed. Well, you should feel blessed and you should be grateful. From my perspective, I'm grateful to the Lord for making it possible. So that's, that was probably the biggest blessing this year and that's no small thing to have a book published. So yeah, I feel blessed.

Gary S:

Let me pause here before we move on, to tie a ribbon on that mention of the book, and also set the stage for what's coming next. If you've listened to this show, once or twice before, listener, you know that Warwick is not an ego-driven person. Warwick is not talking about the book here to say, "Look at me, I got a book published." The reason to sort of take this tour of blessings, as we've talked about, it isn't to spike the football, to use a term you've used offline with me, Warwick. It's to create energy and ideas for growing and cementing the life of significance moving forward.

Gary S:

Everything that you're going to talk about here as a blessing, a key moment in 2021 for Crucible Leadership in that meeting that we had as a team sparked ideas for things we can do to take it further in 2022. So, let's be clear. This is not a "Hey, look at me, I had a great year in 2021." It's, "Here's the things that happened in 2021 that give us energy and ideas and passion and purpose for moving on to give you, listener, more content, more hope in 2022." That's fair, isn't it?

Warwick F:

Absolutely. I mean, there's a phrase, I'm sure many of us have heard, "Having an attitude of gratitude." There's a fair amount of books that are printed on gratitude, so it's certainly popular in our culture, but there's a reason for it is that as you're thankful and grateful, it fuels you with energy to take the next positive step. So this book, which we'll take too long to get into, but there were many positive steps.

Warwick F:

I mean, I had some great conversations with potential publishers in Australia a number of years ago. That didn't quite work out just because of the market needs in Australia and what they were looking for and what I was looking for. And there's a couple of editors in Australia that helped me. Then here, we had some recently more editing. We had a fantastic person help us with the cover design, interior design, great team at Morgan James. We walked together in those final editing stages.

Warwick F:

The point is behind this major blessing of getting Crucible Leadership published, there were many blessings along the way. There were positive steps that I was grateful for, that fuelled me with energy to take the next step. Okay, we've got, more of a structural edit. Fantastic. Let's do more of a proofreading edit. Let's make sure we get a great cover designer. Terrific. Let's make sure we get a great designer for interior layouts. All of these things, this major blessing was a compilation of mini blessings. And so having a positive, yeah, obviously, a vision that you're off the charts passionate about, but by being grateful each step of the way, it helps make this bigger blessing possible.

Warwick F:

So, your attitude as you pursue it is huge. If it's like, "Oh, my gosh. This is so much work." Year after year goes by. I couldn't quite seem to make it work in Australia. "Oh, it will never happen and oh, my gosh, it takes so long. And gosh, to go through each chapter." And it was 100,000 words initially and Morgan James very rightly said, "We want it more like 80,000." And be like, "Oh, my gosh, here we go again. What's this edit number, 800?" It wasn't edit number 800. It felt like it. So, I could have had...

Gary S:

I think it was 807.

Warwick F:

Yeah. There you go.

Gary S:

If I remember correctly.

Warwick F:

So, rather than an attitude of gratitude, I could have had an attitude of whining or as we say in Australia, which is worse, an attitude of "whinging," which is like whining squared. I could have complained all the way. What would complaining and whining and whinging or being irritated have done? It would have guaranteed the book never got published. I would have said, "It's all too much. Let's give up." But by being grateful and positive, good things happened.

Warwick F:

So, that's some really important lessons in getting this book published. Not just about the book, it's your attitude can fuel the direction of your life. It can fuel your success frankly. Your attitude can also doom you to misery and failure. You want to guarantee that you will fail, irrespective of what other people do, be grouchy, grumpy, whiny, whingey, and complain every second of the day, and I guarantee you that success won't happen. It's guaranteed if you follow that path, you won't succeed at anything.

Gary S:

And in Crucible Leadership terms, not only will success not happen, but the other S-word, significance won't happen and that's truly a trauma. That's a crucible oven by itself if you're living a life of quiet insignificance, to paraphrase what you quote Thoreau was saying.

Warwick F:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, as you say, you don't want to, in the words of Henry David Thoreau, lead lives of quiet desperation. You go to work every day and it's just, everything is miserable. Your whole life you think is just awful. You just, you hate the thought of coming home. You hate the thought of going to work. You might even hate the thought of being alive. At least as far as you can change that with your attitude, you want to, I realize there are some circumstances that are very challenging, but you don't need to make it worse with your attitude that can make a difficult situation far worse. So, attitude is everything and that's really why we're talking about it. So, yeah, the book was huge. There's no question.

Gary S:

But the book was not the only blessing of 2021. What else? Again, a blessing that helped fuel your passion that allowed you to work in your giftings and your vision. What else happened in 2021 that you want to single out as a blessing?

Warwick F:

Yeah, as you're talking, Gary, I think and as we're going through each of these items, it's important to note that the reason, one of the reasons they're a blessing is that I'm not a take no prisoners kind of corporate executive, as I often say. Maybe it was arguably needed in my Fairfax Media days. I'm more of a reflective advisor, a writer, a thinker, now, speaker. I love learning and listening, so everything that we do is in line with my design, from my perspective, divine design.

Warwick F:

We don't do things that are off-brand or something that I don't have remote kind of gifting for, because that would make no sense. So, one of the things that really, we've done this year, we started a podcast. I think, a couple of years ago, this fall and Beyond the Crucible, which is what you're listening to now and we took some significant steps forward this year. For the first time, we had a whole series. We had a six week series called Resilience.

Warwick F:

And really, one of the things that's definitely helped us with is the folks at Content Capital, who helped produce our podcast. That Resilience series was huge to have a series based on a certain theme that have helped with our marketing efforts to take our downloads and be able to have our message reach a broader audience.

Warwick F:

Same folks at Content Capital also have an arm that does audiobooks. And so I was thinking, not everybody does it, but I was thinking, I'd love to have an audio book and they have a division that does that. And so I spent a week in Austin, Texas, in August, in sort of a sound booth. And they had a Grammy Award winning sound engineer behind the booth, so to speak, which is, pretty impressive to have that level of quality. And...

Gary S:

Absolutely.

Warwick F:

... so, I kind of narrated the whole book. It was a long week, but took plenty of breaks. And so I actually, it sounds weird, I actually almost enjoy listening to the audiobook because I'm hearing my own understated passion. It takes a lot for me to say that, but they did such a great job.

Gary S:

Absolutely.

Warwick F:

So, they helped take our podcast and the audio book to another level. And just the quality of guests we've had on the podcast. I mentioned Stacey Copas. We've had a bunch of others that I've really learnt so much from. So, I just love learning about from people that I knew nothing about. Another example is we had Jason Hardrath on. Actually, I think it's a very recent episode. Maybe the episode-

Gary S:

Yeah, just a couple of weeks ago.

Warwick F:

Yeah, shortly before this. And here's somebody that had an accident in 2015, stopped him doing triathlons and running. But he shifted to mountain climbing, which he could still do just because the way his knee was injured, he could kind of go up easier than he could run on horizontal ground. And he has an ADHD challenge. But I learned so much from him because of his challenge, he has a gift, which is he has no fear.

Warwick F:

He will just try crazy things like, "Gee, I can barely swim three laps of a pool. I'm going to sign up for a triathlon, which involves what, like 2.4-mile swim" or something like that. And nobody would tend to do that. It's like, "Well, okay, if I can hit a mile swim maybe I'll sign up for a triathlon in six months." But because of his challenge, he holds no fear. It's like, "Gosh, I can learn from Jason. The sense of set a goal but don't have fear." Plan, but just go for it.

Warwick F:

Too many people fail not because they're not going for things because they're not willing to try. So, that had a huge impact on me as I reflect on that gift that Jason gave to me. His lack of fear. He's willing just to go for it, because I'm more plan, plan, plan, think, think, think, then stick my toe in the water, then go back and plan think some more. Now, I'm exaggerating. I'm not as bad as I used to be.

Gary S:

Not much. Not much.

Warwick F:

I'm cautious by nature, fearful, even. But, so what we've achieved with my natural, fearful, cautious design 2021 is nothing short of a miracle. Because you would look at it to say, "How could a fearful person accomplish everything that we've done and we have even got to speeches. Speaking of fear. I mean, oh, my gosh, I used to say-

Gary S:

Before we go there, let me rewind a little bit and talk a couple of things about what you just mentioned. First, the Resilience podcast series, Harnessing Resilience. I encourage you, listener, if you haven't picked that up, go back into our archive and grab the Harnessing Resilience six-part series. Strong guests, who have harnessed resilience in a variety of different ways, both anecdotally, experientially and then also we have some research about what leads to resilience.

Gary S:

But one of the things from that show that really was spot-lit for us here at Beyond the Crucible was that resilience is nearly impossible, if not truly impossible, to move beyond your crucible, as the show is called, if you do not have resilience. And Stacey Copas is sort of becoming the MVP of this conversation, because we've mentioned her now three or four times. But Stacey says something, something in that, in her episode of that series, where she talks about resilience as something that happens where you're crucible is kind of like being on a trampoline. And the lower down your crucible takes you, the higher up resilience can launch you. And that was a real learning point for me.

Gary S:

So as you talk about learning points and little bits of insight and inspiration that we pick up through the show, I hope listeners feel the same thing. I hope you have your own, listener, your own tidbits that you've picked up to help you walk out your path beyond your crucible. But that thing from Stacey about a crucible experience is, think of it as a trampoline. The lower down you go, the higher up you can be launched was a true difference maker for me in terms of how I orient myself toward crucibles. And then Warwick, your mention of the audio book.

Warwick F:

Yeah...

Gary S:

Oh, yeah, please.

Warwick F:

... just before we leave podcasts and Stacey Copas, the Resilience series, I think, we can tie this back to what we're talking about. Because every guest in Resilience series, indeed, every guest I think we've ever had, one of the keys is being a positive attitude that may have gone through a season like Stacey Copas did of substance abuse, of being just angry and bitter. And because it was her fault from her perspective, she was really tough on herself. "Why did I dive in that pool? Why didn't I listen to my parents at age 12?"

Warwick F:

But you're young. Young people do silly things. It's part of growing up. Obviously, there were pretty bad consequences here, but every guest we've had from Jason Hardrath to Stacey Copas, everybody we had on the Resilience series, they've had this positive attitude. They've not let grief or anger about what happened to them or the mistakes they've made overwhelm them. Yes, they've had a season to have to deal with that. And you go through pain, there will always be scars, but they had a positive attitude.

Warwick F:

They count their blessings. They're grateful. They find a way to see and find gratitude in the most unlikely places. And that positive attitude is probably the key to their bouncing back, it's key to their resilience and it's key to their ability to lead a life of significance. So, if you go underneath the hood of everyone of every guest we had in the Resilience series, their mindset, their positive mindset was absolutely key to fueling and strengthening their resilience muscle. It's just staggering to me.

Gary S:

And hopefully, listener, as I said, what Warwick just described is what you have experienced listening to those guests along with us. We've talked about some of the takeaways that we've pulled from the shows from the guests that we've talked to, but we know that, we hope, we pray that you have had those same experiences. One of the things that you don't know is after every episode that we record, Warwick and I talk on the phone, after we turn off play, hit stop and we talk about, "What did you think about that? What stood out for you?"

Gary S:

And it's always amazing, because there is always a learning. Never once in more than 90 shows have we had a phone call after we recorded an episode and gone, "Okay. Well, it was all right. See you tomorrow." We unpack the learnings that we have had and we've studied the guests beforehand. So those conversations, again, we hope continue to use the word of the day for this episode. We hope those conversations continue to bless you.

Warwick F:

Amen.

Gary S:

I want to say this before we get into the next subject because you teased it a little bit, your speeches. And I want to set the tone or the stage for you as you talk about the speeches that you've been giving across the country about your book. And I want to say this to the listener. You've now, if you've been with us for any period of time, a few episodes, you've come to a place where you kind of have an impression of Warwick.

Gary S:

Warwick is a contemplative man. He is a reflective advisor type. He likes to ask questions. He listens before he asks questions. Now, because Warwick is the host of a podcast, which is a form of entertainment, it's also a little form of journalism, you might wonder like you do with some people in entertainment realm, "Is that really who Warwick Fairfax is?" I'm here to tell you what you see is what you get with Warwick. So, when he says to you what he's going to tell you about speaking, have that mindset there.

Gary S:

Warwick when he tells you as he's about to tell you, "I didn't start out as the greatest speaker and it was a little nerve wracking for me," he is telling you the absolute, unvarnished, transparent, vulnerable truth. This is something that he had to work at and when he calls it now a blessing, when he now talks about how he feels as a speaker versus how he felt as a speaker when he started, that is a true movement along the line of a life of significance. So, talk about the blessing of the speaking tour that you've been on and will continue on after the first of the year.

Warwick F:

So, it's interesting, almost a lifelong journey. I remember, at an early age, teenage growing up in Australia, in my mind's eye, I saw myself taking a leading role in Fairfax Media. Giving speeches to employees, encouraging them, making them feel honored, treasured, respected. I just saw myself, just helping them feel like they matter. It was just this daydream as you do when you're a teenager. And so, obviously, whether that whole thing was my vision or ancestors vision is another question.

Warwick F:

But I think over the years, if you ask me about speaking, I'd say, I'm like the world's worst speaker. It is not my gifting. I'm not an outgoing, extroverted person. I'm probably more introverted, shy. I don't like being in the limelight. I can't run around with no notes and just speak off the cuff in some compelling a way. I mean, it's just not me. So, I'm thinking me speak? I mean, that's going to be a heavy lift. It's just not a natural thing for me to be on a stage in front of a whole stack of people.

Gary S:

Now, let's stop here for a second because I knew the pivot was coming. I want to unpack something. I'm going to pull the sweater string now that you'd like to pull on guests.

Warwick F:

Please, you go ahead.

Gary S:

Because that's the first time you've ever told that story about how you thought about as the proprietor, the head of Fairfax Media speaking and inspiring the troops as it were. And I've never heard you tell that story. And you tell that story as if you really wanted that to be true and that there might have been a tinge of disappointment that it wasn't. That's the first time I've heard you articulate something about the failure of the takeover that was sort of a ding to your desire of what you wanted to do. It may not have been your vision, but that aspects of speaking and inspiring people you wanted to do. Did it hurt? Did you think about that through the years that that was something you lost when you lost it?

Warwick F:

Well, it was a lost opportunity, because I was so scared and I just felt like completely out of my element. We had so much debt, as most listeners would know, after the $2.25 million takeover. I spent most of my time in refinancing. I was in my late 20s. I just, I was shy, so typically what you do is you manage by walking around.

Warwick F:

I never walked the floors of John Fairfax Limited. Talking to journalists, staff members, "How you doing?" I mean, I have the capacity to ask questions and be empathetic, but at that time, I was too scared, deer in the headlights, to do that. So yes, lost opportunity to make people feel encouraged and cared. And I was just so out of my element that it was just almost impossible for me at that time.

Gary S:

So, it must make it much sweeter now that you are on the road and you are speaking to audiences about your book and a book that you wrote. It's important to note, I don't think we mentioned it here yet, in a lessons-learned format. It's not just the Warwick Fairfax story. It's in lessons learned how you overcome a crucible and lead a life of significance. That's got to be even more richly rewarding for you now, having not had that opportunity that you thought about before. So, talk about what's been happening on the road. I know the stories, but the listeners don't know them yet.

Warwick F:

So, we had a number of opportunities this fall. A couple of different universities - one faith-based, one more general, some business groups. And what's been amazing is the reception from both business people and students. I mean, it's amazing to me that we would ship books and sometimes, it'd be like, "Well, don't be disappointed if all of them don't go because students are busy." All of them went.

Warwick F:

And we have a moment in the general speech in which we hand out cards and pens, and we ask the audience, "So, talk about a vision that you're off the charts passionate about. Talk about what your life significance is going to be. What one next step will you do this week?" Well, the students heads were down and it felt like two or three minutes were going by. It's like they were writing like an epistle, like a tome. I mean, what's going on here? I was-

Gary S:

Yeah. You had to cut them off...

Warwick F:

No.

Gary S:

... to continue.

Warwick F:

And then we had a time where you kind of leave the question part of it. And the questions they asked, I mean, they got what I was going through. They would say, they might even say, "Do you view now your life is a blessing that, maybe it worked out for the best?" One person even said or asked, "When you go back to Australia is it painful?" Well, yes, it is. Not as painful as it used to be. You've got to be listening very closely to get the fact that it's painful. That was an incredibly good question.

Warwick F:

And then at the end, one venue we were at, all of the books went, and I don't know, stacks of people signed up to get a book. And there was a line, seemingly a mile long, the students in one location at the end of the day wanting me to sign the book. It blew my mind. I mean, it was, just so the reaction by all folks, business folks, but certainly students, it's like, it felt like this book mattered to them.

Warwick F:

My story, the lessons learned, about leading a life significance. As we say often, you're not defined by your worst day, how you can get over that worst day and just live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. I mean, it was such a blessing to see that my book was helping people. And the questions they were asking. They were engaged. It felt like students that when you would ask them, what one next up.

Warwick F:

So many of them said, "I'm going to talk to my mom or dad this week. I'm going to tell them what I'm thinking of." I mean, that when a student says that, they don't talk to mom and dad about everything. They talk to mom or dad when it really matters, about something you really care about. So, it was such a blessing. So, and I can honestly say, I'm not the world's worst speaker. I think I can say I'm competent, maybe even good. And for me to admit that I'm good at speaking, it's a miracle. It makes no sense, given that this is not my area of strength.

Warwick F:

It just goes to show you that anything is possible. If you're passionate enough about what you're doing and you care enough about helping people, anything is possible. I mean, it's a miracle that I can get to competent, if not good at speaking. It makes no sense. It's a miracle. I'm absolutely grateful and I absolutely feel blessed. It just, it blows my mind.

Gary S:

Two points, actually, three. First point, not necessarily a miracle. You worked hard at it. So, second point, you mentioned earlier in this episode, Jason Hardrath and your appreciation for Jason through his crucible in his athletic career, that he seemed to have no fear. That he just was like, "Okay, I'm just going to, I'll figure it out." And he just pushed ahead and he was not immobilized by fear.

Gary S:

I've watched you as you've embarked on this journey to craft a speech, prepare to deliver a speech, deliver it, you've done the same thing. You've not been afraid. You've not been slowed or stopped by fear as you've moved forward to do that. And there's a pivotal moment that I want to bring the listener's attention. You were practicing the speech, it was me and Keri Childers, who you mentioned earlier, your speaking agent and a friend of ours. And you were performing the speech. You were giving the speech to me and Keri as your as your stand in audience.

Gary S:

And every other time as you're telling the story of the takeover bid, every other time you'd ever talked about it on this show, in other people's podcasts, in interviews, in conversation, behind the scenes, you always refer to yourself as a failed media mogul. In context of, most often in the context of when you were asked to give a speech at church about the life of David, you told your story in the context of a sermon series on the life of David. And you said it moved people and your line was, "I don't know how it moved people. There weren't a lot of other failed media moguls in the audience."

Gary S:

As you were delivering the speech to me and Keri, out of your mouth, and I listened for it more than once to make sure it wasn't just a change that happened because you changed your tune once. You said, you stopped saying failed media mogul and you said, "I don't know how it moved so many people because I looked out in the congregation and there weren't any other former media moguls." And I listened and you said it once and twice and three times and you've continued to do that.

Gary S:

And to me, that was an enormous sign that not only were you not afraid, but you had grown in confidence in delivering that speech, and more than just delivering the speech, in talking about that time in your life and how you've moved on beyond it, how you're living a life of significance. You were walking around in that, not feeling cocky, feeling confident and comfortable in your skin. And that's why you stopped, in my view, that's why you stopped defining yourself as a failed media mogul.

Gary S:

But as a former media mogul, because the truth of the matter is, you were in charge of John Fairfax Limited for three years. It did go into bankruptcy, eventually, but you were still a media mogul for three years. That to me was a pivotal moment in how comfortable you became in sharing that story, for again, a lessons learned format. Is that a fair observation?

Warwick F:

Absolutely. Well said. I mean, it's a sign of inner healing, of coming to terms with things and shifting my inner mindset from failed to former. That was a very, it's a very astute point. And I think as I look back at speaking, it's funny, Jason Hardrath and I couldn't be more different. I mean, obviously he has-

Gary S:

That's true.

Warwick F:

He has ADHD. He's fearless. I'm a cautious planner. Think, think, think, step. Think, think, think again, but yet, and I sometimes overdo my parody almost of myself. Because coupled with fear and caution, I have, in fact, I once went to somebody who assessed me years ago, and they said I had like almost off the charts perseverance. I mean, extremely high and that is true. I have very high perseverance. I'm a person of, obviously, deep faith, at least I like to think and deep conviction.

Warwick F:

So, once I decide this is important. It's not about me, it's helping others. And I'm convinced that I need to do something; 99% of the time, it will get done, because my conviction and my perseverance overcomes my innate caution. And my innate inertia and I can be detail orientated when I want to be. So once I decide to do something, I hate things not getting done. It's a part of my DNA. So, once I decide to do something, it and each step will tend to happen.

Warwick F:

And so there's, we often had different parts of ourselves, almost at war within our souls or. So, that's part of what happened is trust the process, trust the team. And because it was so important for me to get my message out and to help people, to help business folks and students, that inner conviction of "This is important. I need to find a way to do this." And I also felt like, "Look, even if I deliver it poorly," and this is, some of this, the reason I'm saying this is I think it can help the listener.

Warwick F:

Even if I give my speech badly or poorly, the innate story of losing $2.25 billion, of bouncing back to lead a life of significance, of focusing on helping others. That innate story is powerful. I know it's powerful, just objectively speaking, so even a bad story delivered with authenticity, passion, honesty, and hopefully, a dose of humility even badly delivered can work. So that gave me the confidence of saying, "This is a good message. It can work. Even if I mess it up with horrendous delivery, it can still work."

Warwick F:

So, that gave me just a sense of inner confidence and saying, "Okay, what's the worst that can happen?" It still got a pretty decent chance of working because of the power of the story and I'm a passionate person in my own understated way. So, that's some of the thinking that was behind the hood. It's like, "I have perseverance." But I felt like this is a good message. And I've got, I've had great help and so, "Let's go for it." So that, some of that inner psychological working within you as you seek to accomplish your dreams, this is important work.

Warwick F:

And the most important thing is if you believe in your message and you believe in what you're doing can help people that will get you through a lot of fear and a lot of caution. You'll be willing to do things you never thought possible. And you will do better than you ever thought possible because people want to listen to people with convictions, who have a message that they feel that can help them. So, that's part of what got me through my innate caution is my conviction and perseverance and the belief that this message matters. I want to help people get through their worst day.

Gary S:

That sounded a lot like the Captain turning on the "Fasten seatbelt" sign indicating that it's about time to put the plane on the ground. But I know you're not done yet, Warwick, in talking about not just the blessings that have happened in 2021, but as you said at the outset, this all was birthed, this conversation, this idea for this conversation was birthed out of a meeting we had as a team talking about what we can pursue in 2022.

Gary S:

So, what do you want to share about what your hopes are for the next year? What you're thinking of for the next year? What listeners can expect? Where are things headed for Crucible Leadership?

Warwick F:

Yeah, I mean, again, I can't help but I'm reflective. But as I look back, I think if I had to sum up everything we've said, I feel blessed from the book, to the printed book, the audio book, the podcast, the speaking, I think there's been another level of healing. Both in listening to folks like Stacey Copas and thinking, "Gosh, it is a blessing, it's a gift." And when you see young folks, in particular, it moving them, that matters to me. It would matter to anybody that's human. There's a level of healing in that.

Warwick F:

And then not only is there healing, as I mentioned, there's learning. Learning from the people we've been on from Stacey Copas to Jason Hardrath, so that's kind of super excited. So, I think as we look to the next year, we're going to continue to grow the podcast and seek to grow and have more series on there, like Resilience. We'll see what we have to come. I'll be speaking in different groups from business groups to students, that's our hope and plan. And maybe, there's all sorts of different things you can do from webinars to online courses, so stack of things we're discussing right now. Different ways to get our message out and the material and ways, both in the breadth of the coverage of the message. There's also a depth of ability to interact with it.

Warwick F:

And I think as I sum up because I want listeners both to understand our journey and what we're looking to do. But I also want listeners to think, "Well, what does this mean to me? How can I use this in my own life?" And I think it's, be grateful. Take stock of your blessings. Count your blessings. Don't forget them, whether it's family or career, take stock of that. And as Stacey Copas says there can be a gift and a blessing in your pain. It's hard to fathom in your worst moment, but think about it, reflect about it.

Warwick F:

Is there a way that I can use this to help people? And when you're using your pain to help people, there can be some level of healing, not necessarily physically, but at least emotionally and spiritually, so. And the other thing about the wonders of being grateful and thankful and counting your blessings, that is like rocket fuel to help you accomplish your vision to lead a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.

Warwick F:

When you're thankful, your ability to accomplish that vision in ways that are beyond your imagination is possible. So, it's not only a good thing from an ethical or moral point of view, it's a practical thing. It will help you accomplish your vision bigger, better, and quicker than you ever thought possible. So, count your blessings. Be grateful, be thankful. You will both feel better and you will accomplish much more than you ever thought imaginable.

Gary S:

I'm going to grab my carry on bag and head off the plane. You just landed it. That was fabulous. I'm going to end this episode, listener, by asking you a couple of questions. Because we've been talking about what we've accomplished in 2021 at Crucible Leadership and what we're looking to do in 2022. So, a couple of questions for you and we want your feedback. What would you like to see? Is there anything you'd like to see content wise from Crucible Leadership? If so, email us at info@crucibleleadership.com. That's info@crucibleleadership.com and tell us what kinds of content would you find helpful as you navigate your own journey beyond your crucible to a life of significance.

Gary S:

And then if you'd like to hear the ex-media mogul, not the failed media mogul or the former, not failed, media mogul if you'd like to hear him speak, if you'd like to have Warwick come to your group or to your business, to your classroom, whatever it is. If you'd like to hear Warwick speak, you can also email to info@crucibleleadership.com. And we will get back to you and discuss how we can make that happen.

Gary S:

Speaking of making things happen, we are thankful that we made it happen that you joined us today. That you made it happen that you joined us today on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. And until the next time we're together, please remember we talked about it here, crucible experience as we know are difficult. They can knock the wind out of your sails. They can make you feel like your life is forever changed. And even if it is, though, here's the great truth. They're not the end of your story.

Gary S:

It was not the end of Warwick's story. He talked. We spent this entire episode talking about things that weren't the end of his story. Things that happen after his crucible. Things that happened because he learned the lessons of his crucible. And that's the great news about moving beyond your crucible is if you learned the lessons of it, it's not the end of your story. In fact, it can be the beginning of a new story for you. And it can be the best story that you live because what the story reads at the end when it says "The End" when you turn the last page, that ending is a life of significance.

Think of “hinge moments,” the subject of Taylor University President Michael Lindsay’s recent book, as cousins to crucible experiences. Lindsay has discovered in interviews with some of today’s greatest leaders that how we react to those moments in life when doors either open or close – hence the hinge metaphor – determines how successful we’ll be in charting our course to a life of significance. The key, he says, is keeping our metaphorical hinges in good working order.

To learn more about Michael Lindsay, visit www.taylor.edu

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Michael L:

There are seasons of transition, like stages that you go through, kind of like stages of grief. There are low points, but then there are also become points of real redemption. I find that people who are most successful are ones who are able to sort of make sense of the tragedy or of the crucible that they went through, in large part because it's about shaping your character. You really can't control how other people react. You can't control, in many ways, the outcomes that ... Those will be largely the aggregated results of lots of different people's actions and behaviors, but you can control, you can shape your own character and the kind of person you become as result of the crucible you've gone through.

Gary S:

Focusing on what you can control and extracting from your setbacks and failures, the lessons, the truths that will help shape your character for the better as you navigate your road beyond trials and tragedies. Sound familiar? It should, if you're even an occasional listener. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This week, Warwick and I talk with Michael Lindsay, President of Taylor University about what he calls hinge moments, cousins, if you will, to crucible experiences.

Gary S:

What Dr. Lindsay has discovered in interviews with some of today's greatest leaders is that how we react to those moments in life when doors either open or close, hence the hinge metaphor, determines how successful we'll be in charting our course to a life of significance. The key, you'll discover, is keeping your metaphorical hinges in good working order. How do we do that? Listen in.

Warwick F:

Well, Michael, thank you so much for being here. Really excited to have you. One of the reasons I'm so excited is obviously Michael is a expert in leadership, which is certainly our passion here, but he's also the President of Taylor. I've been blessed to have three kids graduate from Taylor, the youngest one, or the latest one last year in 2020. I've been to Taylor, actually a fair bit in the last few weeks. Michael instigated the 175th commission at Taylor and anniversary of the founding of Taylor with collection of alumni, parents of alumni, and other folks just to provide input about the next chapter in Taylor's history.

Warwick F:

I was very privileged to be at the induction ceremony with Michael as president. Gosh, this past Monday, I had the great privilege of speaking at Chapel at Taylor and then to a business class later on. Yeah, I love Taylor. It's a very Christ-centered missional place with a very strong culture. Michael, thank you so much for being here and just looking forward to our discussion and yeah, thank you for being the president of Taylor. I think everybody's just super excited and we're really excited to see what God will have for Taylor in these next years.

Michael L:

Well, we were delighted to have you at Chapel. You were wildly popular, as was your book, which were out like hot cakes after Chapel immediately. Clearly, it really struck a chord with our community and excited to see your book get greater interest and opportunity. I do think there's some resonance with some of the work that I had done on hinge moments. So, thanks for having me on.

Warwick F:

Just before we kind of get started, I was fascinated by hinge moments because there's overlap with crucible experiences, but yet, I don't know, I was thinking about this. Maybe all crucible experiences have the potential to be hinge moments, but not all hinge moments are crucible experiences. Just, for the listener that might be used to the crucible experience world, just explain the difference between the two and the basic philosophy of hinge moments as we get started.

Michael L:

Well, the idea here is that all of us experience moments of significant change, inflection points in our life. There's probably, I don't know, 12 to 24 of them that happen over the course of a life. The moment you meet your spouse, the moment you get your dream job, the moment your family has the first significant tragedy, all of these become significant inflection points in the larger trajectory of our life. In God's providence, we are prepared for and respond to those changes over months or seasons of transition.

Michael L:

Hinge moments is really talking about the process whereby we navigate change and maximize transition for both our greater good and the wider good in the communities where we find ourselves. I think you're right. Every crucible moment is a hinge moment, but not every hinge moment's crucible. So, not every change that we experience occurs in the furnace of challenge or intensity. Sometimes it's just great joy and delight, but average American has 73 million minutes that we'll experience in life. And yet, probably there's two dozen of them that have an outsized impact on the trajectory of the rest of our life.

Warwick F:

Yeah. Just reading your book and story, it's amazing how, and you talk in your former book, View From the Top, about platinum leaders, some of the best leaders for-profit and not-for-profit, how the best leaders navigate the hinge moments exceptionally well, maybe that's part of one of the hallmarks of a great leader, which is fascinating. Yeah, I mean, I want to drill down on hinge moments, but that's your perception that the ability of the platinum leaders to tackle hinge moments is sort of like off the charts, it would seem.

Michael L:

That's right. I studied 550 senior leaders. Did interview with Presidents Bush and Carter, cabinet secretaries like Condoleezza Rice, or Colin Powell, who recently passed away, CEOs of the largest companies and largest nonprofits, presidents of Harvard, Stanford, and Princeton. Out of those 550 interviews, I concluded all of them experienced hinge moments and a disproportionate number of them handled their hinge moments very well, which allowed them to recover from challenges, mistakes, failures, or stumbles, but also to maximize opportunities when they came along their path.

Warwick F:

I guess, let's just go back for a second. I love hearing the origin story. I mean, you have a passion for leadership ever since you studied sociology at Rice. Where did your passion for leadership and understanding what makes leaders great? Why did you decide to pursue that? Because obviously you're an exceptionally bright person and could have pursued a number of different disciplines, but why leadership?

Michael L:

I find almost all of our academic pursuits are biographical a bit in nature. My dad was president for PG of America and the golf industry when I was growing up. My mom was head of an independent school in my hometown of Jackson, Mississippi. So, both of them were leaders in their own, right? I think sitting at their dining table, hearing the conversations they would have in person or on the telephone, sort of piqued to me an interest of both the challenges and opportunities of what it is to lead an institution. As a sociologist, I really believe in the importance of organizations and institutions and the vitality of having great leaders in those positions of responsibility.

Michael L:

When it came time for me to figure out what I was going to make the focus of my scholarly research, I think part of it was I drew upon my own journey of watching my parents and hearing their stories and having a desire to be able to shed some light that could be able to be of use to my students and to the institutions where I serve.

Warwick F:

That's so good. I mean, I know for me, I always struggle about the whole notion of being a leader because as listers would know, after the whole 2.25 billion family takeover that failed at the 150 family media company, probably in the '90s, which were pretty difficult years for me. I would feel like I couldn't lead my way out of a paperback. Me lead? I mean, come on. But I'm probably more of a reflective advisor than an upfront leader. But yet, I too, from a different standpoint, have a passion for leadership because certainly, in my own family media company, which at one point had I don't know, 4,000 plus employees, 700 plus million in revenue, the impact in leadership in people's lives is enormous. We spend so much time at work. It can make their life a joy or it can be oppressive.

Warwick F:

Good leadership makes such a difference, and from a kingdom perspective, to have godly leaders that lead well that achieve their objectives, but care for people along the way is so important. It seems like in this day and age, it seems, it's not that often that we have, as Jim Collins in his book, Good to Great, he talks about humble, but driven leaders. You talk about platinum leaders. It just seems rare unfortunately. There's too much of the egotistical, it's all about my agenda, and if I have to tread on people as I get to the top, oh well. Does that make sense? It's just, leadership is important and it's not easy to find good leaders, at least in the public eye anyway.

Michael L:

Well, I actually think that there's great opportunity. I mean, we are in a societal wide hinge moment coming out of the pandemic in the recovery mode. As a result, I think there's a real opportunity for folks who have always wanted to have a chance to sort of maybe get their voice heard or to provide greater leadership. There's a real moment of opportunity right now. We're seeing massive labor shortages in every industry, in every sector of our society. That's also creating opportunities for greater management, more opportunities for us to lead well. I also think that, while it's true that every institution has to be led by someone, you can be a leader without being in a position of institutional responsibility.

Michael L:

There's tons of leaders who have moral authority because of their circle of influence. Fundamentally, leadership is about having a group of followers. It's about a relational enterprise. Whether you're leading a little league soccer team or leading a fortune 500 company, I think there's opportunity for us to lead very effectively. And it's my hope that people of faith will provide greater leadership in our society because I think there's a real hunger for moral leadership in the wider world.

Warwick F:

Yeah. I mean, I think that's so good. We do talk about leading at all levels, whether it's the boardroom, the living room, whether it's leading your community to maybe take back a park for kids in your neighborhood. It's so well said. I want to drill down a bit into your book, Hinge Moments. As I was reflecting on, and I want to ... There's some key hinge moments that you talk about, but listeners will be familiar with this, but as I look back, I think of a couple of key hinge moments that I went through that I didn't really think about. They weren't crucible moments, but they were hinge moments. Just for listeners, they've heard this, but not in this context, so just to maybe help make the connection between who we are and what we do here and my life and hinge moments.

Warwick F:

There was a couple for me. I know in 2003, as listeners would know, I was working at an aviation services company in Maryland doing business financial analysis and I'm pretty analytical. I was doing well, getting good performance reviews. But after about six years, in 2003, I felt like, and like Michael, I'm a person of faith, I felt like God was saying, "You're playing small. You're not using all the gifts that I've given you for my glory." It wasn't that it was beneath me because humility is one of my highest values, but I felt like I was not using all that I was for the Lord.

Warwick F:

So, I went to a woman that did mid career assessments. She says, "You have a good profile to be an executive coach," so I learned about that, got certified as an International Coach Federation Executive Coach. Then from there, I got on a couple nonprofit boards and my journey continued. That was a hinge moment in the sense that I felt like this nudge from the Lord, I was doing well, so to speak. But I was discontent because I felt like I wasn't using all that I was for the Lord. As I read about your definition, I was like, that is a hinge moment. Then another one is, again, I mentioned in Chapel at Taylor, and listeners would be familiar with, in 2008.

Warwick F:

My pastor asked me to give a 10 minute message on somehow comparing to David who was being pursued by Saul. I said, "Well, I'm not a righteous person, falsely persecuted. I brought a lot of it on myself. Anyway, public speaking is not something certainly back then I did a lot of. It's certainly not my happy place by all means. But somehow what I said resonated with folks. I was like, huh. Then I did some intense praying and scripture reading. I felt like the Lord saying, I want you to write a book, but not a tell-all, but write a book about your story in a thematic lessons learned leadership format.

Warwick F:

Both of those were hinge moments, 2003, 2008, when again, like Michael being, Christ is the center of my life, I heard that still small voice that nudge and I knew what his will was and I moved ahead. If I hadn't made those decisions, my life would be radically different. Those were key hinge moments, for me anyway. Does that kind of make sense from your framework?

Michael L:

For sure. I think that all of those are moments that you can point back to specific. Each of us in our own journey have different things. So, what might be hinge moment for you might not be for someone else, but I think when we take stock, we can see that there are clear defining moments that change the trajectory of our life.

Gary S:

One of the things I want to mention about those hinge moments that you described Warwick is that again, going back to the idea that not all hinge moments are crucible moments, but all crucible moments can be hinge moments, what happened, those two hinge moments that you described were key to you moving beyond your crucible, to quote the title of this podcast. You've talked about them in the context of the failed takeover. Those were two key moments that led you toward the life of significance that you're now leading.

Gary S:

I think that's the way to kind of mash up these two very important concepts of crucible moments and hinge moments. That's how they worked for you. Those hinge moments helped you as you move beyond your crucible and I think we can extrapolate that out to, right Michael? To anybody who goes through a crucible moment. Your hinge moment, if you identify it, that can be the thing that can help you move beyond your crucible.

Michael L:

I think that so much of what you have to do ... In the book, I talk about that there are seasons of transition, like stages that you go through, kind of like stages of grief. There are low points, but then there are also become points of real redemption. I find that people who are most successful are ones who are able to sort of make sense of the tragedy or of the crucible that they went through, in large part because it's about shaping your character. You really can't control how other people react. You really can't control, in many ways, the outcomes that ... Those will be largely the aggregated results of lots of different people's actions and behaviors, but you can control, you can shape your own character and the kind of person you become as a result of the crucible you've gone through.

Warwick F:

Yeah, that's so well said. Gary, thank you for making that connection, because you're right. As I've reflected on it, the connects between Crucible Leadership and Hinge Moments, you go through tragedy, and that's obviously an epic hinge moment. As we say, you can either hide under the covers, be angry and bitter at yourself and others, whether it's your fault, not your fault. There's a lot of room for anger and bitterness and just hide under the covers and wait for the next 30, 40, 50 years to pass and eventually it'll all end. Or you can say this was awful, I was an idiot or what happened to me was just not right. And you can make a decision to move on from that as pretty much, most of the 70 plus guests we've had on the podcast, their crucibles, they've all pretty much, without exception, used their pain in the service of others.

Warwick F:

They've found some level of healing by finding, out of the ashes of their crucible, a vision that will ... A life of significance focused on others and a higher purpose. But as I look at hinge moments, as you try to move out of the depth of your pit, those hinge moments help you achieve your life of significance quicker, better, more true to who you are and your values if you just listen to those key moments. If you're a person of faith, it's listen to the Lord. If you're, some other perspective, maybe it's your kind of inner soul. But hinge moments and managing them well are key to getting out to that pit quicker and fast and achieving your vision.

Warwick F:

I mean, it's critical to me. I want to go through each of the kind of seven chapters, but you have your own incredible hinge moments and you write about it in the book and you're obviously open about it. There's a couple, in particular you're studying at Rice or you're a Rice sociology professor. I'm not sure you're even yet 40, maybe close, and some recruiter comes to you and says, "Hey, there's a job open at Gordon."

Warwick F:

But you weren't like, "Great sign me up. Let's go." Talk about, that was a hinge moment and you handled that obviously well, but not everybody would've made the decision you did, or they might have said, "Oh, I'm young. I love where I am in Texas, in Boston." I don't know. Talk about that hinge moment, because that was certainly one of the early critical moments that changed the whole trajectory of your life.

Michael L:

I was a faculty member at Rice and I thought I'd be there my whole career. It's a great institution, lots of resources and things were going really well. A search consultant called and said that they were working on the presidential search at Gordon and wondered if I would be considering. I said, "I really appreciate it, but I have a whole pathway in front of me. I need to become a department chair and maybe a dean, and then a provost. Maybe I would do that down the road, but I think it's probably 10 to 15 years from now." And he said, "Well, would you just pray about it?" And I said, "Sure." I probably prayed a couple of times, but not very seriously about it. But a month later after that initial call, my 32-year-old cousin was killed in a car accident.

Michael L:

I was very close to him. He was like a little brother to me. The family asked me to deliver the eulogy at his funeral, which I did. After the funeral, we loaded up the kids and started driving back to Houston. It was a Sunday afternoon and I was driving along. The kids were taking a nap and it was quiet in the car. I began thinking about my cousin, his name was Trent, and he died about six weeks before Christmas. I wondered, what did he plan on getting his kids for Christmas that year? I knew that he was a planner and probably had some great ideas. I knew also that he was hoping for a big promotion at work and I wondered how close he was to getting that, how far along was that? Then I got to thinking about his life and wondering, what does he want to do 10 to 15 years from now?

Michael L:

The minute that question went across my mind, I instantly thought of that conversation I had a month earlier with a search consultant who had asked if I would be interested in pursuing the presidency, and I said maybe in 10 to 15 years. It just dawned on me in that moment, we are not promised tomorrow. We live our life as if we're in control, when in fact we're really not. That was a moment of great conviction for me because throughout my life I had said I wanted to be open to doing things, even if it wasn't always my idea. I wanted my faith to really drive who I was.

Michael L:

The next morning I called the search consultant and said, "I don't know if you're still looking, but if you are, I'd love to be able to throw my hat into the ring." Never thinking I would get it, just thinking it'd be a part of my own growth and development. But over the next three months, the process moved forward and in the end I was selected. I really think that my cousin's death, in some ways, was redeemed in a small measure by my own sense of calling. I mean, I still greatly miss him. It's a tragedy that he died so young.

Michael L:

At the same time, we have to use tragedies that happen in our life as a way of sort of signaling to us how we might grow and develop. I'm very grateful that, that became a hinge moment in my own life that put me on a trajectory of pursuing positions of institutional leadership.

Warwick F:

Then let's shift to the next, or one of the next big hinge moments. You've been at Gordon College for 10 years as we heard earlier, record fundraising, things are going great. You love the area. Listeners know I went to Harvard Business School and I had parents of my friends that had a place in Cohasset, which is on the south shore of Boston. Love the area. I could totally get why you would want to live there forever. It's a beautiful area. Winter is a bit cold, but it's a nice place. But yet, some folks came knocking on the ... Well, let me pause for a second.

Warwick F:

This is a classic hinge moment. You were doing well, but yet you were feeling some level of discontent, but yet everything was going so great, which seems like it's a classic hinge moment. Talk about, even before Taylor came knocking, talk about that hinge moment at Gordon College.

Michael L:

I was feeling a little restless. Arthur Brooks, who had been the very successful president of the American Enterprise Institute, came and spoke for an event we did. And in it, he talked about his decision to step down after 10 years on the job. I got these butterflies in my stomach and I went home that night and I said, "Why was I nervous for him? He's made his decision. It doesn't really affect me." My wife said, "Well, maybe you're realizing that your 10 years at Gordon will come to a close next year and you're wondering if name thing might be in your future." I said, oh, that's a crazy idea. I can't imagine that." Then a couple months later, I was working on the manuscript for hinge moments and I was rereading every single interview I'd done. I came upon this interview with Bruce Kennedy, the CEO of Alaska Airlines.

Michael L:

I had long forgotten, but in his interview he talked about the decision for him to step away from the CEO job after 10 years on the job. As soon as I saw those words on the page, my heart started beating fast and I got the butterflies back in my stomach. I realized, well, there is something about 10 years that maybe is standing out. Over the next six to eight months, I really, I prayed. I thought, I reflected a great deal. In the end, I concluded, many of the things that I'd set out to do, I've actually accomplished. One of them was a very significant reduction in the cost of a Gordon education.

Michael L:

It takes a long time to reduce expenses and to grow revenues, to get to a place where you can do something significant. Last fall, we were able to announce a 33% reduction in the sticker price and a reduction in the actual price for every single student. That was a big deal. I just realized that I thought, perhaps it was time for me to do something different. It was upsetting and nervous because I've never stepped away from a job without having another job.

Michael L:

But I really felt a confirmation that, that was the right move. I went to my board and they said, "Oh, you just need a break. Let's sign you up for another five years." I really appreciated that. But that actually wasn't really what I felt. So, I stepped away without really knowing what would happen. It was scary for several months. I mean, there were moments when I thought, will I ever get the job that I love again? Will I ever get a chance to do something that meaningful? But I'm also living proof that there are many roles, there are many paths that we can take.

Michael L:

I think if we're open to God's leadership and trying to be responsive when we feel those hinge moments are occurring in our life, that restlessness, that holy discontent can be a way in which the Lord prepares us to move on. By the time I had the opportunity to assume the Taylor presidency, I felt really confirmed in what I was doing. I'll just say, I'm very happy, very satisfied. I feel like it's a great fit for what I bring to the table, what the institution needs, and we are really thrilled to be in Indiana.

Warwick F:

That is just amazing. Obviously I know all of the Taylor community is super excited to have you. Taylor's obviously a great place, Christ-centered, top academic institution, but it has a history of having an extremely close knit culture. As you would know, better than I do, culture is ... It can take decades to create. It's not something you can just flash a wand, and hey, presto, we have a good culture. Obviously you got a great foundation.

Warwick F:

I want to shift to hinge moments and there's this amazing chart in here that's on every chapter. Basically, it starts, in terms of level of confidence, it starts at discernment, goes to anticipation, intersection, then goes up to landing integration, inspiration, realization. Basically intersection is where you're between the two spaces and you're feeling the most uncertain, the least confident, the most wobbly in the knees. It's a fascinating way to look at it. Let's dive into some of these things and just talk about how in that first stage you talk about it's the stage of discernment, approaching the door in your life. You've had a couple of those when you were at Rice and then at Gordon. What's kind of the key concept behind that first step of discernment.

Gary S:

Can I jump in before we do that?

Warwick F:

Please.

Gary S:

Just for the listeners' benefit, we've been talking a lot about hinge moments, and I think it would be really beneficial, Michael, if you defined what a hinge moment is before we talk about them in depth, in terms of how it plays out in your excellent paradigm. What is, how do you recognize a hinge moment, and why do you call it a hinge moment?

Michael L:

A hinge moment are those dozen or two minutes that happen in our life that have a disproportionate impact on the rest of our life because of key decisions or actions that took place in that moment. They, like the hinge of a door, open up doors of possibility or close other doors of possibility because of the impact of them. Oftentimes they have a directly personal effect on us, but they can include not just your family life, not just your love life, but your professional life as well as wider world events. For some of us, 9/11 was a hinge moment that forever changed your life. For others, it was just another minute that changed our world, but didn't directly impact us. Hinge moments oftentimes are disproportionately impactful on us as individuals and they begin to reshape who we are.

Michael L:

As Warwick says, there's seven stages of transition that we go through. And you start at a relatively high level of confidence, but then you begin to discern, either through that sense of restlessness what I described as butterflies in our stomach, sweaty palms, or maybe it's dreams we have at night or conversations that we have, or intuition that we feel, we begin to discern or anticipate that a change is on the way. Then we begin to sort of lose confidence because we begin to think, well, huh, I thought my life was going in one direction and maybe it's going in a different direction.

Michael L:

Actually, it continues to slide down until you get to sort of the low point of confidence, what I call the intersection phase, the liminal moment. Liminal is sort of a word that's taken from the Latin word, which means threshold, when you're literally between two rooms or two seasons or two chapters of your life. You're leaving one and you're starting another, but you're sort of in this betwixt and between phase. That's the hardest time. And it can last a matter of a few days to a matter of a few years when you're dealing with the death of a spouse or the loss of a child, and you are really sort of coming to grips with that.

Michael L:

But then, over time, we begin to sort of find our way into a new room, a new season, a new chapter. We become integrated into that community. We begin to feel like we have got a way of making sense of it. As we become integrated into landing in this new space, making new friends, developing our own sense of calling, and then eventually, we get this opportunity where we become a source of inspiration for other people. At some point in time, whereas you started at this level of confidence, you go through a low point, you actually rise up to a higher level of confidence on the other side when you realize all of this is about the development of your character and opportunities for you to sort of grow and develop.

Michael L:

You discover, maybe you're not going to be managing the family business that you thought you were going to do in Sydney, but instead you have a new sense of calling. In many ways, it's one that is even more meaningful because you've actually gone through some of the difficulties or challenges that make you a stronger, richer, better person. These hinge moments go through these seven phases of transition that in the end, on the other side, we're a better person because of it.

Warwick F:

Boy, that's so well summarized. Wow. I guess the discernment is sort of an interesting phase. You talk about being prepared, and we'll get to, in a later chapter, the virtues like humility, courage, and self control. That first step of you talk about silence and meditation, self examination. When a potential opportunity comes, there's that phase of both internal discernment as well as seeking counsel. These are really the best practices of, when an opportunity comes knocking, what's the best process of figuring out whether to say yes and then move into it, because there's bad ways to handle it.

Warwick F:

But this is sort of like, from my perspective, the best way. Talk about some of those, in those early stages, I love that phrase you say, "Respect your restlessness and seek counsel." Talk about why that's just so important in those early stages.

Michael L:

I think one of the things that's important is that we have to sort of go between two poles. One is immersion and another is isolation. I think that you have to do both of those things when you're really discerning things. Immersion means you're getting fully into the context. Maybe it's that you pay a visit to the place where you think you might be working or you spend a long weekend walking around the community where you think your new house might be, but you're fully immersed in that. But you also have to run what I called, get on the balcony. You have to be able to pull out in moments of isolation. That might be a quiet walk on the beach or thinking alone while you make a long run, something that gives you an opportunity to really contemplate and to get alone with yourself.

Michael L:

You have to do both of those kinds of things in the discernment, both immersion and isolation. The net result of that is that I think you begin to develop a sense of both calling and responsibility and you get greater clarity around what might be coming ahead.

Warwick F:

That's good. That really goes into the next phase of anticipation. I love the phrase that you mentioned of overcoming caution and the fact that most humans are risk averse. I mean, I certainly am. I like to think I'm a relatively fearful person, but fortunately from my mother, who is a very strong willed force of nature kind of person, I get some pretty high degree of perseverance and conviction. Once I feel like this is what the Lord wants me to do, my conviction and perseverance tends to overcome my natural caution, so that's a bit of a yin yang kind of thing that I have to go through. But most humans are risk averse, but overcoming over caution, I love that phrase.

Warwick F:

Back in the days at Rice University, you had to live that one out. You could say, I could become department head, dean, provost. I love Texas. I love where I am. Why give up the tried and true path to jump off in some other place I've never been to? Talk about why overcoming over caution is just so critical to life.

Michael L:

Well, there's a ton of neuroscience research that shows that, generally speaking, we will do everything we can to mitigate risk. While we might think of ourselves as brave and courageous, most of the time, we're not. And it requires us to sort of be goaded in one way or another to push ourselves to try something that is risky. My book is designed to try and encourage people. It's actually, generally speaking, better for you to take the risk. Certainly when you're thinking about new ventures, most of the time you're going to be much more successful in that new venture. So, don't be too cautious.

Michael L:

I mean, it's important to make assessments and to count the cost. At the same time, too often we do become paralyzed by that and we miss out on some amazing opportunities. Virtually every one of the platinum leaders that I interviewed had to get to a point where they were willing to push themselves to do that was very different. A great example, Condi Rice. Condoleezza Rice thinks she's going to be a world class concert pianist. She goes to the Van Cliburn competition as a 14 year old and realizes, "I am never going to play the piano as well as some of these other people who are younger, less experienced than I am. They're just more talented. They do this better."

Michael L:

So, she has a soul searching experience. She thought her whole life was going to be in a certain direction. She decides to enroll at the University of Denver as a 16-year-old, much earlier than most kids go off to college. While there, she doesn't major in music. She explores a variety of different fields. Takes a class on a Soviet studies, and through that develops a real passion and love for Russian literature, Russian culture. That in turn gets her interested in international relations. She graduates from the University of Denver. Decides to go straight to Notre Dame to pursue a PhD, which she does international relations.

Michael L:

Of course, she ends up having a whole career as a provost at Stanford, becomes a national security advisor and secretary of state. None of those things would've been pathways for her if she had stuck to her pathway of thinking that she was going to be a concert pianist. Maybe she would've been able to play piano at her local church, and maybe occasionally she'd have some concerts. She never would've had the platform that she ended up having in her life if she had been overly cautious. Sometimes we have to just be willing to take the risk.

Warwick F:

That's such a good example. It's funny. I think if somebody we had on our podcast, at least we recorded, just couple days ago, Jason Hardrath, and he's somebody, teaches PE at an elementary school in Washington State. He has ADHD. And the way he copes with that is he has to move. He cannot sit still. But because, as you would know, with challenges, there can become blessings, there can come gifts with challenges. He doesn't have the risk averse chip in his brain.

Warwick F:

He does things that are nuts, but then he achieves things that most of us humans couldn't achieve. Like he had an accident, which I won't get into all right now, that limited what he could do, but he decided to do a triathlon and he wanted to compete in these elite deals. Well, part of the triathlon is like a 2.6 mile swims, two point something anyway. Well, at the time he could barely swim the length of a 50 meter pool. But he signed up for this triathlon six months later saying, "I'll figure it out. I'll get there." And he did.

Warwick F:

Now, most of us wouldn't even dream of signing up for triathlon if we couldn't barely swim the length of a 50 meter pool. Maybe if we felt okay, I've satisfied myself I can can swim a mile, now I'll commit to it. But 99% of humans would never do that. I'm not suggesting everybody lives the way he does because he has a certain challenge with a gifting, but I look at that and I'm awe inspired. I mean, his lack of risk averse is ... There's a challenge with that because his lack of ability at time to control impulses, but that's super human level of courage, but that's because of the gifting side of the challenge.

Warwick F:

When I heard that I said, golly, that's just ... Talk about lack of risk averse. I mean, no wonder he achieves some of the things he does. I mean, it's not that hard to break records if you don't have that risk averse chip in your brain.

Michael L:

That's right. Absolutely.

Warwick F:

Anyway, but obviously that's a whole nother story. We move then to intersection. You've talked a bit about that. That's the hardest place between those two spaces. One of the things in here that you talk about is the importance of having a mentor. You relate it to stories and films, whether it's Bilbo having Gandalf, and as any Star Wars fan would know Luke having Obi-Wan. Clearly, I mean you've had mentors your whole life. You're a wise man. Talk about how, especially when you are in the land in-between, almost sounds a little bit like Moses between Egypt and the promised land. Of course, he was there for 40 years, which you don't typically want to be in the land in between for 40 years, heaven forbid, but talk about why having a mentor is so critical when you're between those two stools.

Michael L:

I think you have to have mentors and sponsors, people who are willing to sort of step into your life and create opportunities, but it's helpful for people to speak into our life who can remind us of our giftings and our interests and our capabilities, but also one who opens up doors of possibilities. That's why I love working with college students is because it's great to get a chance to help them make some good connections.

Warwick F:

Yeah. Then we kind of move into landing, and probably the key phrase there is, so the welcome mat and you are the guest is the importance of listening and you've got like impression, plus impression, plus impression equals reputation. That makes so much sense. It's so easy to get into a new job saying, "Okay, I don't need to listen. I'm a successful ..." You could have walked into Taylor and saying, "I'm a successful leader of a Christian college. I know what I'm doing. Taylor just needs to listen to me and let's go." But you didn't. You had a hundred 175th commission, you listened to alumni, parents of alumni, other folks.

Warwick F:

You didn't walk in day one in Taylor saying, "Okay, here's a plan. Let's go. Hey, what's your name anyway? Because I really don't know who you folks are." But you're obviously too intelligent for that. Yeah, talk about why just that sense of those early impressions of listening and just being on your best behavior, as you put, it sounds obvious, but there's a lot of leaders that get into a new job, they do the exact opposite of what you suggest.

Michael L:

Well, I think experience is the best teacher to us. I've made tons of mistakes along the way. The benefit of a second presidency is it's a chance to reset and to learn from things, and hopefully do things a little bit better. I certainly have benefit so much for being part of this community and to learn from the wisdom of other folks. I also think you get to a certain point where you don't have to prove yourself. You're pretty comfortable in your own skin. I think that becomes a sign of leadership maturity. Certainly, I think your crucible moments that you experienced had a way of, through the refining fire, helping you to become a place where you don't have to prove yourself. But instead, you become an opportunity to learn, grow, and hopefully invest in other people.

Warwick F:

Well said, well said, and then we move into integration where being trustworthy and trusting your team is obviously is so huge. I mean, that kind of makes abundant sense. Then somewhere to dwell as we, kind of in our remaining minutes, chapter six, the hinge inspiration, this is where you really unpack the concept of the hinge. You mentioned that, people might be familiar with the phrase, cardinal virtues. You talk about how the word cardinal is from the Latin word, meaning hinge, and just the importance of having a very strong hinge. Really, let's sort of dig into that one a little bit about the importance of having, as you put it, a reliable, robust hinge when hinge moments come. Talk about why that's just so critical.

Michael L:

I think all of us have a set of values that we live our lives by. It orients our priorities, how we spend our time, how we spend our resources. Not everybody takes the time to enumerate what those values are, but I think each of us have a set of them that are really guiding us. The book tries to lay out, there are four cardinal virtues that have been around for a millennia and shape who we are, whether it's justice or self-control, or a real commitment to trying to pursue wisdom that might be true in our life, a variety of different values that help shape who we become.

Michael L:

I would just say that, to all of your listeners, it's important to use the hinge moment as a chance to say, okay, what are those key principles or values that really matter to my life? And then how do I live by them? Because when you get to the end of life, people are not going to give a eulogy based upon all of your bullet points of your resume. They're going to just talk about your character. What is your character and how did you live it out?

Warwick F:

Yeah, that's so important. I mean, we talk about in crucible leadership and we have a broad audience. I'm clear about my faith in Christ, but I say, leadership needs to be anchored in fundamental beliefs and values. It could be religion, a philosophy, a set of values, and then importantly, beliefs are important, but they need to be acted upon. From our framework, that's character, which is beliefs acted upon. Like in James, it talks about faith is good, but deeds is where it fleshes itself out and it's obviously for the believers. It's still saved by grace, but if you really believe in what you say you believe, it will shape your character.

Warwick F:

Otherwise, there's a question about whether you believe in the first place, at least from a Christ centered perspective. But that is so good, is just, even before those hinge moments come, just understanding what your values are. You talk about prudence and fortitude, temperance, justice. I love how you define justice, I guess from, is it Cornel West somewhere? What love looks like in public, justice. I haven't heard that. That's a brilliant definition. Then we go to the last one, inspiration.

Gary S:

Can I back up a second?

Warwick F:

Please, please.

Gary S:

And stay on hinge for a minute.

Warwick F:

Absolutely.

Gary S:

Because I think it's fascinating, Michael, that you use hinge as the metaphor because hinges are interesting. They're sort of hidden, right? It's the least important part. When we're go one through a door, we don't think about the hinge, but if it wasn't for the hinge, we wouldn't get through the door. Hinges also are metal usually, they're susceptible to rust, they're susceptible to the nails falling off. They need a little care. What does it look like, metaphorically, if our hinges rust in our lives? What is that like and how can we prevent it? Because I think that's critical to part of what you're saying, is to keep those hinges well-greased and well oiled.

Michael L:

I think, fundamentally, if you don't have those principles in your life, if you don't care for those values, nurture them, strengthen them, help them to become more central to who you are, then the hinges can't perform their function and so the door doesn't open or it doesn't close. The engineering marvel about a hinge is that it's the same device that is used to keep a slab of wood from staying ... It stays in place and yet it can also create a range of motion so that you can take something that is closed and open because of a hinge. You also can take something that is open and closed because of a hinge. And also, it can leave it in the current position until it needs to be adjusted. That's an engineering marvel that a little device like that can do all three of those things well.

Michael L:

But if the hinges are rusty and if they no longer function, you're going to find that either doors that need to be closed in our life, because there are certainly necessary endings that we all have to experience in life that won't occur, or doors of opportunity that need to be opened, they won't be there. Or the things that are supposed to stay open, suddenly become closed, or things that become closed, suddenly become open. It actually changes the trajectory of your life for all the wrong kind of reasons, which is why you have to really care for those hinges so that they can be sustaining over the long call.

Warwick F:

Yeah, and that's such a good point, and thanks for making that excellent point, Gary. I mean, having good, robust, rust-free, well-oiled hinges based on the fundamental values that you have in life, and we all have values. I mean, I talk about in the book, humility and integrity, probably my two highest values along with authenticity and vulnerability, probably integrity and humility are my number ones, it helps you make better decisions when those hinge moments come. You made, I think it's easy to look back in life.

Warwick F:

As you rightly say in the book, life is better understood looking backwards. Unfortunately, it's not easy to look forward, but that's why we have faith because the Lord understands the plan and we just have to say yes one step at a time when he gives us that next step. But as you look back on those two key hinge moments for you, whether it was Rice University or being at Gordon, you had a robust hinge, you knew your cardinal virtues. You had mentors you could talk to. You had all the process and systems in place to make good decisions, and you had the power of prayer. You had the right system set up to make, it's not foolproof because we're human, but to make good decisions.

Warwick F:

So, you made a decision that many wouldn't have. Many would've stayed at Rice, most maybe at that age, just objectively speaking. And many might have said, "Look let me shoo that holy discontent thing out of the way. It's Gordon. They have high confidence in me, the board of trustees. We're doing well. Record fundraising, lower tuition. I could just coast here for the next 10, 15, 20 years and life is good. Why would I want to leave a good thing? Who does that? Most wouldn't. They would stay there forever. You probably could have. But yet, you decided not to. And it was only because of how robust and rust-free your hinge was.

Warwick F:

Thank you for bringing this back to that Gary, because it's ... To make good decisions, you need good hinges. I feel like, why would you leave on the table what the Lord would have for you in life? If you're a believer, you'll still go to heaven all. If you're not a believer, you could still have a great life, but maybe there's an optimal path that you're missing out on. Why miss out on that optimal path of even greater service and joy and fulfillment? Why do that? By navigating your hinge moments well, you will be open to some of the most exciting, fulfilling experiences you could possibly have.

Warwick F:

Yeah, now's the time to oil the hinges, figure out your own cardinal virtues. I'm an executive coach at heart, so whatever that means to you, every person has the God-given right, from my perspective, to figure out their own path and their own virtues. Figure it out, have a good team, have a mentor and you'll be better set for when those next hinge moments come. So, excellent. Just as we kind of wrap up here, we've got the last one of realization. One of the things you talk about here is, which is very personal, you talk about responding to hard joys.

Warwick F:

You mentioned you've got three daughters, but your oldest, you found out when she was a few months old, that there was some genetic things going on. I mean, I've never really heard that phrase a hard joy. Why'd you put that in that last chapter in realization? What was the link there between? Because that's sort of fascinating that you talk about that there.

Michael L:

I think a lot of times we look at everybody else's life and just assume that everything is rosy, that the trajectory they've been on is like a line graph where everything is moving up and to the right in a real positive direction. When in fact, a lot of us encounter challenges and hardships along the way. Parenting a special needs daughter was not something my wife and I expected. We love Elizabeth and are grateful for all the good that has come in to our life. And there has been joy, but it has not been easy at all. Caring for Elizabeth is an all consuming part of our family's calling. So, it's been a hard joy in a number of ways. We have to just be honest and acknowledge that. And yet, there have been moments of real encouragement and inspiration and it's certainly changed who I am for the better.

Michael L:

From my own sort of character development, I would say, I'm a much better father, I'm a much better person, I'm a much better boss because I have had some of those hard joys along the way. My hunch is that each of us can probably point to things that have been ongoing sources of pain or difficulty that it's God's providence, have become real sources of great joy and inspiration as well.

Gary S:

That sound to you, our listeners, is the captain turning on the fast seatbelt sign indicating that it's about time to land the plane of this conversation, but we're not quite there yet. Before we get there for sure, Michael, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let listeners know how they can both find out more about Taylor University and about you online. How can they learn more about your books and about your college that you're president of?

Michael L:

Well, you're very nice to say that Gary. I hope that folks would check us out at wwwd.taylor.edu. Taylor is an amazing institution, just ranked number one university in the Midwest and we're really proud of the good things that are happening here on campus. If you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter, or somebody who is of the high school age that's looking at universities, we hope that they'll consider Taylor. My web presence is also on taylor.edu/president, and you can learn all kinds of good things. I hope you'll consider buying a copy of Hinge Moments. It's a great book and one that we're hoping to share with a much wider audience. Thank you so much for having me on today.

Gary S:

Great. Warwick. You get the last question so bring the plane on the ground.

Warwick F:

I love one of the last things you talk about in your conclusion, is redemption through hinge moments. You talk about how God uses failure to help us grow and grow up, and just the value of failures or successes for that matter. And certainly in my case, just the pain of losing this 150-year-old 2 billion plus business, which was excruciating, and even when you recover from crucible experiences, there are always scars that are left. But that sense of redemption, certainly in 2008, when I gave that talk in church and somehow my story, it felt like could be used to help others. That was a hinge moment where I definitely felt redemption.

Warwick F:

Speaking at Taylor and just seeing the response. I'm very careful whenever those things happen as to physically or proverbially get on my knees and say, "All glory to God, All glory to God," because it's all him. But just talk in, it's our last question, I've just loved that phrase, redemption through hinge moments. That really rang true to me.

Michael L:

Well, it's certainly, I find that the best way that you sort of make sense and make meaning of these hinge moments is for us to take stock and say, okay, well, how has this shaped my character? How has this helped me to become a better person, a better family member, a better professional? I think that that does become the way in which redemption will occur. It can use the pains and difficulty, and while you're right, it does leave scars, those scars don't remain open wounds. Because of that, your skin becomes tougher, stronger, more supple, so that it can navigate additional challenges. I also find that, generally speaking, we rise to the level of the challenge, whatever it might be.

Michael L:

For those who are, in the current moment, being given great challenge, it's because you also have great character and great potential. My hope is that through the crucibles that we experience and the hinge moments that come along our way, God can use that to redeem us so that we can be even more effective in our respective callings.

Gary S:

I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject's been spoken. I also know when someone has just added something to his or her resume. Michael's resume is very, very, very impressive with his books and his education and his leadership of colleges. Who knew he could land a plane so well too? He landed that plane perfectly in our discussion. Listener, thank you so much for your time with us.

Gary S:

As you wait around for the next time, which comes in a week if you're listening to this episode when it comes on live, you have homework, and it makes perfect sense to have homework because we're talking to a college president. You have homework. The homework is this, make certain that your ... Take the time in the next week to make sure that your hinges are inoperable order. Oil them. Make sure that the nails are there, make sure that there's not any rust on them. Really dig into, find out, identify your hinges where they are and make sure that they're in working order.

Gary S:

Then, until the next time we're together, please remember that we do understand your crucible experiences are painful. They do change the trajectory of your life. All of us have experienced them. You have experienced them, but we know, through our own experience and through the experience of guests like Michael and other folks we've had on this show, that your crucible experience is not the end of your story. In fact, it can be the beginning of a new chapter in your story, which can be the best chapter in your story. Because when you learn the lessons of your crucibles, when you embrace them as hinge moments to walk to something new and better, they can be the best chapter of your story, because where they lead at the end of the day is to a life of significance.

Most of the time, we define crucible experiences as setbacks and failures. But can success be its own crucible? Dean Niewolny  didn’t think so as he climbed the corporate ladder in his financial-services career. He was focused on not just keeping up with the Joneses, but surpassing them. He had the corner office, the multiple homes, the plane … but he also had a gnawing sense there was more. That he wasn’t living his calling. That changed when he got involved with the Halftime Institute, which helps men and women look beyond their life’s bottom line to its impact. He’s served the organization as an executive and captured the insights of his work helping others live with legacy in mind in his book TRADE UP: HOW TO MOVE FROM JUST MAKING MONEY TO MAKING A DIFFERENCE.

To learn more about Dean Niewolny, visit https://halftimeinstitute.org/team/speakers/dean-niewolny/

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick F:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Dean N:

Going from success to significance doesn't mean you have to give up success. You surely, surely can be successful and significant at the same time. I would argue that in today's day and age with the younger audience, it's, "Hey, I want to be significant now. I want to make a difference now" so the idea of going from success to significance was a fantastic tagline in the '90s for the book Halftime, but that's a little dated in my opinion at this point, but for me, personally, I just started to feel as I got more successful, that every time I got more successful, there was another hill to climb, there was always someone else in front of me, there was always ... It didn't matter what I accomplished. There was always someone else that I needed to try to jump over. I'm like, well, this is just an endless game for me because it wasn't bringing me happiness, it was bringing me a lot of stress.

Gary S:

Most of the time, we define crucible experiences as setbacks and failures but can success be its own crucible? This week's guest, Dean Niewolny says that was the case for him. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show.

Gary S:

In his conversation with me and Warwick, Niewolny describes how not just keeping up with the Joneses but surpassing them fueled his career for far too long. He had the corner office, the multiple homes, the plane but he also had a gnawing sense there was more, that he wasn't living his calling.

Gary S:

That changed when he got involved with the Half Time Institute, which helps men and women look beyond their life's bottom line to its impact. He's served the organized as an executive and captured the insights of his work helping others live with legacy in mind in his book Trade Up: How To Move From Just Making Money to Making A Difference.

Warwick F:

Well, Dean, thank you so much for being here. I love the title of your book, Trade Up: How To Move From Just Making Money to Making A Difference, and the whole notion of Half Time to help leaders of organizations, business leaders, really all leaders move from success to significance, which is sorely needed in our societies.

Warwick F:

Tell us just a bit about your family growing up in Wisconsin and the background which, obviously, you end up at Half Time but what was it like for Dean growing up and your family? Tell us a bit about the backstory.

Dean N:

Sure. Yeah. I am a Cheese Head. I'm a Wisconsinite and grew up in a little town called Wausau, Wisconsin in north central Wisconsin and grew up with a fantastic family, probably a low to middle class family I would say. We didn't have a lot but we had everything we needed. Two sisters. They're all back in Wisconsin and while I'm living in Minnesota.

Dean N:

As a young guy, we had what we needed. We were farmers and we worked hard but I always had this dream at a young age of how can I get out there and be the next Warren Buffett or the next Bill Gates? As a young man, I ended up going to a school in Wisconsin and then ended up getting hired initially by Arthur Anderson, I went out to be a consultant with Arthur Anderson, and then went into the financial services industry. A very Midwestern upbringing, family of farmers. It was great.

Warwick F:

Just in looking at your book, you tend to look over the fence or over the other side of the tracks and people were successful and, "Hey, this could be me." There was just this drive from a young age and athletics was huge for you in high school and college. Talk about ... Was that you? Was there any examples in your family? It seemed like almost from birth you just had this drive to ... You wanted to make it in life. You weren't just satisfied with the status quo. Where did that come from, this drive?

Dean N:

Yeah. Great question. I would say I had fantastic parents. My dad is my best friend. Very close to my parents. We were always comparing ourselves to others. We would see others who had bigger cars or bigger homes and nicer things, if you will. I just remember us always comparing ourselves to those folks. As a young kid, it was ingrained into me that I want to be one of those folks, I want to have those things because that's what we were looking up to. I thought if I can just achieve what they have achieved, and that success and money and material possessions, that'll bring me happiness. No disrespect to my mom and dad whatsoever but as a young man, it was ingrained in me as I started to look at others that I want to be like those folks.

Warwick F:

It's kind of interesting because, obviously, I grew up in Australia but definitely respect America and part of what makes America America is the sense of inventiveness, they're willing to try, they're willing to fail almost, the sense of you want your kids to have a better life than you had. For 150 years, 200 years, that's always been the ethos. It's not wrong to want to better yourself and do well and achieve, per se.

Warwick F:

That notion you grew up with is probably a notion that many, if not most, American families grew up with. Say, "I want my kids ... If I didn't go to college, I want my kids to go to college. I want them to have a better job than I did." That's generations of family in every state in the country has that ethos. It's not unusual in that sense and we'll get into there's nothing wrong with success but in of itself, you don't want to worship it.

Warwick F:

I mean, as you look back, that probably wasn't that unusual in that sense, your friends that you hung out with, it's probably you weren't the only family that said, "Hey, we want to better ourselves and do well", right?

Dean N:

Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. My son right now is 19 years old and he talks like I did when I was a young kid, "I want to be wealthy and I want to have all these things." What ended up happening in my life is that that became the center point of my life. That was the main focus. That work was going to bring me happiness if I just focused on that. It was an idol to me. I was obsessed with it at a young age. That becomes a challenge.

Warwick F:

Indeed. Let's talk about that. An idol is a good word. You started off in finance with Arthur Anderson. You're thinking originally accounting and you thought, "I don't think I want to do this. I want to be in sales. I want to sell finance stuff." Talk a bit about those first few jobs as you ... I think there was one, you were, as young brokers do, dialing for dollars. Like 300 calls a day and you were disciplined, you were on it, which is admirable. Talk about those early days as you were working your way up.

Dean N:

Sure. Sure. I did become a stock broker but actually it wasn't a dream of mine. It happened when I was at Arthur Anderson and the guy next to me said, "You know, Niewolny, you don't know what you're doing. What are you doing here? You should go out and get a different job" so that's when I started thinking, "Well, what should I do?"

Dean N:

I was 23 years old and decided being a stock broker sounds like something that would be really interesting. I knew nothing about stocks, nothing about financial markets and walked into the Merrill Lynch office, way back in 1987, and just said, "Hey, I would really like to become a financial advisor. Do you have a position for me?"

Dean N:

I'll never forget it, the gentleman that I was talking to was on the way to the Final Four basketball tournament. He said, "You know what? I don't have a lot of time right now. You seem like a good kid. Come back in two weeks and you have a job." That was it. That started my financial career with Merrill Lynch in Milwaukee, Wisconsin back in 1987.

Dean N:

You're right. What happened at the very beginning as a young financial advisor, my boss told me, "Dean, you need to make 250 dials every single day, 50 contacts every single day, and then hand the sheet into me at the end of the evening", which I did. He said, "If you live two years like no one else wants to, you'll live the rest of your life like no one else can."

Dean N:

Of course, this drug being money, for me, at the time, that was just music to my ears. I was just locked and loaded for the next two years. I just dialed for dollars and made the cold calls and became reasonably successful at a young age, at 23, 24 years old.

Dean N:

Yeah. That's how I started in the financial business.

Warwick F:

Over the years, you started moving up the ladder and I'm sure being a manager and being very successful, you had I think ... What? Maybe several houses at one point, the lake house, the boat. Talk about ... I mean, that rise, your dreams did come true in that sense. You were successful, you worked very hard, and I'm sure you earned your success but talk about that rise up the ladder from young stock broker to I guess the pinnacle being a manager of a $100 million portfolio at Wells Fargo. Talk a bit about that journey. Any sort of high points on the way?

Dean N:

Absolutely. Yeah. I was financial advisor out in Carmel, California and then moved back to the Midwest and I was encouraged at that time to make a transition from Merrill Lynch to a company at the time called Payne Weber, which no longer exists, but they merged with Kidder, Peabody, and, ultimately, were bought by UBS.

Dean N:

I was encouraged at that time to move to Chicago and go into management. What ended up happening is during that time, one of my crucible moments happened in 1994, right after I moved over to this new organization, I ended up going through a very difficult divorce at a young age.

Dean N:

I had to start over. Here I am, 1994, I'm 31, I'm successful, I'm making money, have all these different toys, married, and pretty soon everything unraveled and I had to start over. As I started over, I moved to Chicago, got into management, started moving up the ladder and did various jobs with UBS. I went down to Texas and then back to Chicago and then became a regional manager and a market manager.

Dean N:

At the same time, as I started to rebuild, I met this beautiful lady, who is my wife, Lisa, and had two fantastic kids. Like you said, started accumulating possessions. We had a home in Chicago and a home outside of Chicago and a lake house and actually I became a pilot at that time and had a little airplane, nothing major, single engine but a little airplane and a boat.

Dean N:

I was thinking to myself, "As I continue to make money and accumulate these things, I'm just going to have more joy in my life and more happiness." What ended up happening was the complete opposite for me. It was the opposite. I actually had a bout with hives and I was so stressed out thinking, "Well, I have to pay the insurance on that house. I have to get the airplane fixed. I've got to take care of the boat", that I was so stressed out about taking care of my stuff, that in 2006, I just had this moment where I just said, "There just has to be more to life than this."

Warwick F:

Talk about that scene. I think you write in the book, was it like the 40th floor of some massive skyscraper in Chicago and you're looking out. Just talk about that moment. It feels like that's one of the pivotal moments in your life. It's like what is life about? Take us through that moment as you're staring out that window.

Dean N:

Sure. I'm going to back up just a little bit, in 1995, I accepted Christ and started going to a church in Chicago. My first thought was, "Well, if I accept Christ, I have to leave the marketplace and go into the ministry. I'm not supposed to stay in the marketplace."

Warwick F:

Right. Right.

Dean N:

The pastor that weekend said, "Well, if everyone left the marketplace and went into the ministry, who would be a light in a dark world?" I thought, "Well, I'll stay in the marketplace."

Dean N:

In 1999, there was this gentleman that got interviewed, Bob Buford, and I was in the third row and I was thinking, "Boy, that guy is impressive, he's talking about going from success to significance." I'm thinking to myself, "Well, I'm all about this success thing. I'm not so sure about the significance piece."

Dean N:

But then we fast forward six years from there to 2006, 40th floor of the Mercantile Exchange Building, the corner office, all the homes and the airplane, the boat, beautiful wife, kids, and I just looked out the window one day ... I shut the door, looked out the window one day, and just said, "God, there has to be more to life than this. There has to be more to life than this."

Dean N:

It was up to that point Warwick I spent so much time focusing on myself, it was all about me and accumulating things and making me happy and I wasn't thinking of others. I just remember that day really, really well. I didn't hear an audible voice but I felt the lord say, "Dean, I have other plans for your life. Start to simplify your life." That was the episode on the 40th floor. It was a game-changer.

Dean N:

My boss actually reached out to me two weeks later and said, "Would you be interested in doing a book study?" I said, "Absolutely. What's the book?" He said, "It's Half Time. I'd like you to read the book Half Time." I said, "Well, I heard that guy get interviewed in 1999" and that was just perfect.

Warwick F:

What's fascinating about your story is it's not a simple kind of Paul road to Damascus moment. It seemed like it was a journey. You'd come to faith in Christ at a church in Chicago a few years before. You'd heard Bob Buford, who for listeners, I think was from Texas and had a bunch of TV stations and was very successful and, obviously, you know better than I do, but lost a son in I think a drowning accident, which turned his life and, gosh, what is life about? You lose your only son. That's about as devastating as it can possibly be.

Warwick F:

It wasn't like this road to Damascus moment, okay, I've accepted Jesus, boom, you know? Dean Niewolny's life instantly turns on a dime. I think it's more realistic because for most people, life doesn't change overnight. It's almost like being an aircraft carrier, right? It changes slowly. Just talk a bit about that journey. I think it's very realistic and it's more typical.

Dean N:

You're right. When I heard Bob speak in 1999, and he talked about this idea of going from success to significance, that really did begin a journey for me that I didn't even realize at the time, that just little by little, I started to look outward and I started to volunteer and I served at a homeless shelter and I helped the homeless put resumes together so they could go out and get gainfully employed.

Dean N:

But God was using that time in my life as building blocks to get me to this point of 2006, and everyone doesn't need to make a transition like Bob Buford did from the marketplace to the ministry, or like I did. Most people actually stay in the marketplace. But for me, it was a journey. If I look back, it's interesting, you can connect the dots in how it was a building block kind of effect up to 2006 when I had the 40th floor office experience.

Gary S:

We're going to get into what significance is and how you discovered that but for the listener who hears this in apposition, the idea of success and significance and thinks, "Success still sounds like it might be kind of interesting", it's very rare to be sitting in a virtual space with two individuals who have had after their names, $100 million, in your case, Dean, billions in your case, Warwick, and both of you have come to the same conclusion, that that success didn't bring happiness.

Gary S:

For people who hear that sometimes and think it's empty, this idea of, "Success doesn't really fulfill, that's not true, success would fulfill me. It was just you had a problem with it", talk a little bit, Dean, about what was it about success that was unfulfilling for you ultimately. There you were, you were saying that the other side of the tracks is where happiness lies. It wasn't that. Was there a moment besides your health failure? When did you start to sniff that success just wasn't what you had made it out to be when you were younger?

Dean N:

Yeah. Great question, Gary. Just to clarify too, I wasn't personally worth $100 million. I managed a $100 million business. What ended up happening is as I started to be successful and started getting promoted and making more money and accumulating more things, it actually had the opposite effect for me, like I said earlier. It started to cause me to be more stressed than I was without those things.

Dean N:

I really had to take time and think through why is that? What I want to make sure and say here is that going from success to significance doesn't mean you have to give up success. You surely, surely can be successful and significant at the same time. I would argue that in today's day and age, with the younger audience, it's, "Hey, I want to be significant now, I want to make a difference now" so the idea of going from success to significance was a fantastic tagline in the '90s for the book Half Time but that's a little dated in my opinion at this point but, for me, personally, I just started to feel as I got more successful that every time I got more successful, there was another hill to climb. There was always someone else in front of me. There was always ... It didn't matter what I accomplished. There was always someone else that I needed to try to jump over.

Dean N:

I'm like, "Well, this is just an endless game for me" because it wasn't bringing me happiness. It was bringing me a lot of stress.

Gary S:

Yeah. You were constantly crossing over the tracks, right? You were constantly trying to get to whatever was on the other side of the tracks over and over and over again. That's got to be exhausting.

Dean N:

Yeah. It was for me, personally. For many others, it may not be. Having material possessions and money and all that, there's nothing wrong with that. For me, what was wrong with it was I made those things an idol. That was my total focus, right? This idea of making money, nothing wrong with that. We need people to make money. Hey, our nonprofit needs money, so make money. You know? The reality is how do you use that money? Is the money for personal gain? What is it really for?

Warwick F:

Yeah. No. It's such a good point what you're saying. I have, as listeners would know, a very different journey. Similar experience but about as different a journey as you can imagine and listeners know this. I grew up in about as wealthy a family as you can imagine in Sydney, Australia. A 150 year old, very large media company, newspapers, TV, magazines. Not only did we have wealth but we had status and respect.

Warwick F:

For people on the marketplace, that's ... You've won the lottery at that point. We didn't just have money. We had respect in society. Money, respect, status, what more is there that you want in life? Some people have money but are not respected at all. You know? When you have all of them, you've got everything the world says that you would want, and so we had that. We had parties with people from Hollywood, ambassadors, business leaders, and it just all seemed to me so empty growing up, everybody trying to impress each other with the deals they had done and royalty they met or whatever. It just seemed so empty. I don't know. It never was attractive to me. I was almost inoculated at a young age.

Warwick F:

I'd experienced all that and it certainly wasn't making my family happy. You know? In of itself, wealthy families have typically lots of problems.

Gary S:

If I can jump in right before you turn into, and say something to our listeners that I think is fascinating by both of the stories that you've just told, because it's very rare it happens on Beyond The Crucible that this is true, in some ways, is it true for both of you that success was its own crucible? The way that you experienced success, the way that you chased it, the way that you wrapped yourself around it, did that become, at some point, for both of you, your own crucible?

Dean N:

I'll chime in here, I would say, for me, it's still a crucible, what I'm working on. Absolutely. It was a crucible for me because it was my driving focus, day in and day out. Back prior to going through the Half Time program and what I'm doing now in the nonprofit world, the idea was all about myself and focused on myself. Once I went through the program, I started thinking of others and trying to make a difference with my finances.

Dean N:

I'll tell you every day, even now when I get up, I still have to pray every morning that that doesn't become an idol for me, that I don't focus on it day in and day out. I'd love to say I'm succeeding at that but I'm not. I have to work at that every single day.

Warwick F:

Yeah. I mean, I want to come back to that in a second because that's such an ... Thank you for being so honest about it because that is helpful. Yeah. For me, I guess the pinnacle of success, if you will, is I launched this $2.2 billion takeover in late August '87 and within a few months, it had "succeeded" and I was controlling shareholder proprietor of this big company at age 26.

Warwick F:

The world would say, "Boy, controlling a multi-billion dollar company at 26, that's pretty good. Not too many people have achieved that kind of benchmark." A media company that had the equivalent of the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, but yet it was kind of miserable because it was, as listeners know, all about duty and living up to my great-great-grandfather's vision. I wasn't even fulfilling my own vision. As soon as we had succeeded, it was miserable. I just did not want to be there. There was no joy. Even though, for me, it wasn't so much about money, it was this idealistic vision, but I think what you just said about being aware of your idols and temptations, a wise man or woman does that.

Warwick F:

For me, it's not money but it's more ... My Wikipedia entry until recently was young, hot-headed kid could have had it all and blew it. Do I mind that? Yes, I do mind that. You know, would it be nice if folks in Australia and the media gave me a little ounce of respect one day? It may never happen but do I mind that? Sure.

Warwick F:

With this book that when I first got a copy of that book a number of months ago, like in April, I was literally on my knees in prayer and saying, "Lord, I don't care whether this book sells one or 10,000, my self-worth is not going to be bound up in book sales." My sense of, okay, he's back finally I'll get some respect here. I don't want that desire for respect and that desire for redemption in the world's eyes to define who I am.

Warwick F:

Yes, I'm human, so if a gossip column comes out in one of the Australian papers, as it did a few weeks ago, and it was the snarky stuff like, "Hey, Warwick has a book, which he'll sell you for a price." It's like who sells a book for nothing? It's like, "Warwick talks about failure. Well, he'd be an expert on that, wouldn't he?"

Warwick F:

It's like really? Did I mind that? Yes, I minded that. I've gotten over it, kind of, but do I mind that? Yes. Money is not my deal. It's more respect, redemption. For me, I wouldn't say idol but know your temptations and when you feel that little negative thought coming, if you're a person of faith, get on your knees, pray, and say, "Lord, help me with this temptation. Don't let me have my self-esteem wrapped up in money, redemption, respect." It's for my, and your perspective, it's only in you Lord, not ... Yeah. My temptations are different but they're still temptations, if that makes sense.

Warwick F:

Let's talk about Half Time and your book Trade Up because I think this is fascinating. There is one story in the transition that ... I don't know. Your wife, her name is ... Your wife's name is Lisa?

Dean N:

Lisa.

Warwick F:

I don't know whether she's a prophet but I guess she was at one point, which is just crazy. Talk about that prophetic moment that she had about your role in Half Time, which at the time seemed like crazy stuff, right?

Dean N:

Yeah. Yeah. It did. I think she's a prophet. Anyway, what ended up happening is in 2008, I went through the Half Time program after having this 40th floor office experience. One thing I realized at that point is I'm going to figure out what God wants to do through me one way or another. We read the book Half Time, went down to the Half Time program, which was fabulous.

Dean N:

But at that point, I was still working in the marketplace. We transitioned from Wachovia to Wells Fargo Advisors and I was working there in Chicago overseeing that business. Lisa loved southern California, still loves southern California, and Chicago. She knew those two places on the map. I said, "Why don't we go to Laguna Beach? They're having a Half Time event. You can enjoy California and I can enjoy Half Time."

Dean N:

We went together and I had an interaction with a gentleman from Bob Buford's organization there that day and he came up and said, "Hey, Dean, I really would like to get to know you better. Do you mind if I come up to Chicago and spend a little bit of time with you?" I said sure. At that time, Half Time was looking to get into the financial services a little bit and partner with some financial services organizations. I thought, "Sure. Come on up to Chicago."

Dean N:

Well, that night, we go to bed and three o'clock in the morning, and this is not like my wife, whatsoever, by the way, woke up at three o'clock in the morning. She's sitting straight up. I said, "What happened?" She goes, "I just had a dream." I said, "A dream about what?"

Dean N:

She said, "The dream was about we're moving from Chicago to Dallas, Texas and you're going to become the CEO of the Half Time Institute." I said, "Lisa, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard." I said, "They probably want me to come to talk about the financial services industry" and that connection. She said, "No. You're going to become the CEO and we're moving to Dallas, Texas."

Dean N:

Well, I knew when she said Dallas, Texas that that had to be from the Lord because it wasn't from her. That's not where we were thinking of moving. Nonetheless, he came and four months later, they offered me the position, as you mentioned earlier, of managing director of Half Time. I said, "Lisa, see, I wasn't the CEO. I was the managing director." Then a year later, they changed it and said, "Now you're the CEO." Yeah. It was a dream that she had, that's why we're here.

Warwick F:

Talk a bit about Half Time because not everybody will be familiar with Half Time and then, obviously, that leads into your book. What is the mission of Half Time? What's its vision?

Dean N:

Sure. The vision really is to help men and women around the world identify what we call their Ephesians 2:10 Calling. Ephesians said we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works that he has prepared beforehand. We believe that everyone has good works, that the lord has given to them, and Half Time helps men and women all over the world identify what are their strengths, what are their spiritual gifts, what are their passions, and we connect them into those things.

Dean N:

We really teach, coach, and connect individuals around the world into their 2:10 Calling, as we like to say.

Warwick F:

You know, one of the things I found fascinating in your book and I can relate to this, that a lot of churches and places, somebody, some businessman or woman comes to faith and it's like they don't know what to do. Maybe they start being an usher or setting chairs and there's nothing wrong with doing any of that but the question is from God's perspective, is that the best use of their gifts for the kingdom, setting chairs or being an usher? Again, it's not about it being beneath you but it's kind of what ...

Warwick F:

It's funny. I guess there is a story in my life that really directly relates to I think to me what's a core, from what I understand a Half Time concept is just lean in to your gifting and I would say God-given passions and calling. There was a time, as listeners would know, I was ... Back in the '90s, when I was not doing too well, just after this whole company went under and I felt like I had let God down ... The founder of the company was a strong believer. When you feel like you've let God down, that's a pretty crushing crucible for a believer.

Warwick F:

Anyway, I ended up working in an aviation services company doing financial and business analysis because I'm pretty analytical, I can do that. I remember in 2003, I felt like the Lord telling me, "You are playing small. You're not honoring me with all the gifts and abilities that I've given you." It wasn't so much that it was beneath me but yet I had more to offer, so then I got into coaching, a couple of nonprofit boards, including my church board and then from there, Crucible Leadership, which is a whole other story.

Warwick F:

That was a pivot point for me feeling like the Lord saying, "You're playing small. You're dishonoring me because you're not using all of the gifts you have for the Kingdom." That feels like ... I didn't know it at the time but it's sort of a Half Time way of thinking, wouldn't you say? In terms of Half Time's philosophy?

Dean N:

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, Warwick, I like to say volunteering is something you get to do, your calling is something you have to do. Very rarely do folks take the time to really understand what is their true calling? God gives us and provides us with strengths and spiritual gifts and abilities, and I believe he wants to use those and plug them into areas of need and, like we say, things that Jesus really cares about, the orphans, the widows, the prisoners, others.

Dean N:

When I was younger, I volunteered, like I said, for a homeless shelter, which was fantastic. I loved it. I enjoyed helping them put their resumes together. But my skillset and my ability allowed me to do more than that and make a bigger impact. It's the leverage impact. I agree with what you're saying.

Warwick F:

Talk about how Half Time does this. You know, we talk about this a bit in Crucible Leadership. Let's say a leader comes in, they're probably still on the fast track, initially, but they're curious about Half Time and about Jesus and all. How do you begin to turn that ship in terms of finding their calling? Talk a little bit, at least, at a high level, some of the elements that Half Time does to try to ... As that newbie CEO type comes in and is all about focus on success, but yet they're curious about the lord and you try to turn into what's the Ephesians 2:10 work that God would have for them. How do you do that? It sounds like not an easy thing to achieve or to accomplish.

Dean N:

Yeah. Most folks who come through the program are at that point that I was at, that smoldering discontent state trying to figure out what is my life really all about? Most successful leaders, not all, but most successful leaders that I've encountered really struggle to have close relationships, close friends, and they're lonely. If you're a CEO or a leader and you're struggling through a crucible issue, who do you go talk to? You're not going to talk to your staff or your team.

Dean N:

Most come ready to really figure out what does God want to do through me? What's the next season look like? All people want to leave a legacy and have an impact and make a difference. When they get there, we have different exercises that really allow that person to be vulnerable and open and safe and we go about it in such a way that once they get authentic and real, we start talking about the head journey, which is, of course, the head journey has to do with we decide what we think we're going to do or what we're good at but then there's a heart journey. There's the holy spirit, there's the guidance from God who guides you. It's the head and heart journey.

Dean N:

At first, you're right. When they get there, I would say most are struggling through something, they're unhappy, they're at this point where, "I want more to my life. I want to make a difference. It may be initially they're struggling in their marriage or with their kids or don't have relationships there." We help with those things to help them get free and then get clear and then get going as we like to say.

Dean N:

It's a very interesting process that if someone comes in and they have an arrogance about them and they're not ready to be coached and they're not in that season, it is difficult. You're absolutely right. But most are ready to do that.

Warwick F:

You have a couple fascinating things. I think you talk about also in your book, the whole 80th birthday party experience, what do you want your legacy to be? That's such a powerful question. Talk just a little bit about that whole concept of legacy and that 80th birthday party image, because it's a fascinating image.

Dean N:

Yeah. It brings back scary memories for me, quite honestly. I remember what ended up happening, I was working at the time still in the marketplace, and I actually did go to a funeral for a lady who was a teacher and there was 500 or 1000 people there. I was like, "Why are so many people here?" They said, "Well, it's because the impact that she had on their lives, the difference she made."

Dean N:

I was sitting in the pew thinking to myself, "Well, if today was my funeral, one, would anyone show up? But secondly, what would they say about me?" That was a very scary thought at the time. When I got to Half Time, they do an 80th birthday party exercise, I guess now we should up it to 85 or 90, but you're invited to your birthday party, your wife or good friend takes you out or spouse takes you out and 200 of your closest friends are in the room and there's a microphone up in the front of the room and, one by one, they walk up and talk about the difference you made on humanity, not on yourself. What difference have you made on humanity? What difference have you made on others? What would you like to hear?

Dean N:

I remember when we went through that exercise, I was like, "They would say, 'Dean is successful, making a lot of money, he has all these different toys" but the impact I had on others or humanity was very minimal at the time. It's an exercise, as you think forward, at the end of your life, what do you want your legacy to be? What impact have you had? That's the 80th birthday party exercise.

Warwick F:

I love that. One of the things I sometimes talk about, obviously, in the world of finance, you talk about ROI, but I often think what about EROI? The eternal return on investment. You know? I wonder if the time is like what's my EROI? What kind of impact am I having for the kingdom? Would I invest in me? At that age, that would have been an interesting conversation at that time. You know? Would I get the buy this stock or not buy this stock from a kingdom perspective?

Dean N:

Well said. I never thought about it that way but you're right.

Warwick F:

One of the other things I love about Half Time is you talk about having a personal board of directors that will ask good questions but these are people that know you, I think you mentioned your wife, your coach but within Half Time ... Talk about that whole concept. Most people do not have a personal board of directors that have the backstage pass, the freedom to say, "Hey, Dean, Warwick, there's a problem here." You know? Who sets themselves up for those conversations? Nobody. Talk about why that's so powerful.

Dean N:

Yeah. The personal board of directors is critical. I think it's right up there with coaching that we do at Half Time. The personal board of directors ... To have those cheerleaders when you need those cheerleaders, when you're down and you're struggling, you need cheerleaders around you. When we talk about the characteristics of someone who finishes well, there's five things and one is have a group of encouragers around you.

Dean N:

The personal board of directors, for me, personally, has been life-changing. I identify four personal board members, if you will, and any good company, of course, has a strong board. For my board, I actually have someone when I'm having marital issues or issues with my children, there's someone, he's a pastor that I would reach out to for that and if I'm having challenges maybe around business, there's someone that I chat regarding that.

Dean N:

I have four to five folks on my personal board of directors but they have carte blanche. They can say anything to me, and I want them to say what's on their heart. It might not be what I want to hear, but it's probably what I need to hear, right? I don't mind them sharing. It's the person at 3:30 in the morning, if I have a major issue is going to answer the phone and be there. You're right, most don't have that but it's really something that's vital to have for sure.

Warwick F:

Yeah. Just keep you on the path you want to be on. You mentioned those five things. I think it's the five characteristics of leaving a legacy, those are the five you're talking about. Just give us a little overview of those five because you mentioned I guess a second one is maybe cheerleaders, the personal board of directors, but talk about some of the other five.

Dean N:

Sure. Health is critical. The five characteristics of those who finish well really has come out of countless hours of coaching over the years. Tens of thousands of hours. The five that have come out of that, believe it or not, number one, those who succeed and win and leave a legacy have taken care of their health. It's hard to go and live out your Ephesians 2:10 Calling if you're not healthy.

Warwick F:

Indeed.

Dean N:

You need to be healthy. They're flexible. Flexible, meaning as we get older and I'm surely guilty of this, I'm getting old and stodgy, I don't want to make changes, I don't want to make adjustments. My son just had a football game that was changed 10 miles away and I was complaining about them changing the site. I was not very flexible. But those who are flexible absolutely succeed.

Dean N:

Then you have, I already mentioned it, the encouragers, those folks around you who are encouragers and, of course, your spouse and others. You want to identify those folks. The fourth would be your family. Put your family number one. This was a big learning for me. When I went to Half Time, I remember Bob Buford asking me, "Where is Lisa in all of this?" I said, "Well, I don't know where Lisa is but I know I need to get going and I've got to figure out my 2:10 Calling." He said, "Dean, whatever you do, just stop." Putting others' interests ahead of your own. Then, of course, your calling, figuring out what is your Ephesians 2:10 Calling, what's God's calling on your life, those are the five.

Gary S:

I was going to say speaking of calling, one of my callings as co-host of Beyond the Crucible is to know when the sound I hear in the distance is the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign to indicate that we're getting close to when we're going to land the plane. We're not going to land it yet but it's time to gather our peanut bags up and get ready to give them to the flight attendants to throw away.

Gary S:

Warwick, in the time we have left, I know you have some questions you want to ask, Dean, go ahead and do that. Just wanted to fulfill my calling as the co-host.

Warwick F:

All good. All good. I guess as we wrap up, there's so much in the book that we can't get to and I'd encourage all listeners to get Trade Up: How To Move From Just Making Money to Making A Difference. I love the phrase that you and Half Time use, it's not just from success to significance but success to significance to surrender. I mean, oh my gosh, that's a powerful concept.

Warwick F:

I wanted to just ... This may be a last question. I think it's the first chapter, you ask these three incredible questions like is there not a cause? Is there in you a sweet spot? What is your giant, which is kind of the smoldering discontent. Just that notion, is there not a cause? I guess that's relating to calling, right? I mean, that's like the first question you start out with the book. You use the example of David. Talk about ... I love that phase, is there not a cause? Just talk about that phrase.

Dean N:

Most folks, or a lot of folks, feel they don't have a passion around anything and what we find out is everyone's passionate about something, everyone is passionate about some cause. We do an exercise where we ask folks, why don't you read the USA Today for a week and come back to us and let us know what makes you mad, sad, or glad. What really catches you?

Dean N:

This idea of having a cause or something that you really care about, that you're passionate about, everyone has it but it takes time to uncover it. It's not a weekend seminar where all of a sudden it just kind of pops up. Now it can happen that way but usually it takes time to uncover it.

Dean N:

The second part, I think folks sometimes make it too complicated. We have a lady that went through the Half Time program and she said, "You know what I love to do? I love to rock babies." She rocks babies of drug addicted mothers in Houston at a hospital. Another gentleman went through and his passion was prayer. He wanted to see more prayer and he invited a few folks to pray and that has turned into the global day of prayer. His passion was prayer, her passion was rocking babies. Everyone has a passion.

Dean N:

I remember something that really stands out to me when we had a group in and a gentleman said, "I'm really not passionate about anything" and about 30 seconds later, he starts talking about, "I just wish everyone could go to college. I don't know why some get to go to college and some don't." Right there was his passion.

Warwick F:

Right. Right.

Dean N:

Education for everyone. The causes, they're not a cause. Everyone has a cause. Everyone has a passion.

Warwick F:

And within that cause is somebody's God-given calling. As we say in Crucible Leadership, you want to align it with your divine design because our belief is God doesn't make mistakes, so if he designed you a certain way, he wants you to use that for his purpose, so you link up your design, your God-given passions with calling, in our world often that can come out of a crucible. It doesn't have to but I don't want anybody ever to go through what I went through, whether it's abuse or could be a cancer survivor. All in there is calling.

Warwick F:

Maybe the final observation, for me, at least, is as I've found that I've used my brokenness and gifting for, I'd like to think, a Kingdom calling, there's some level of not just joy but healing. It makes it easier to go through the pain and I guess as we close here, have you found that?

Warwick F:

I've certainly made massive mistakes and it sounds like you've made some things that maybe you would look at as maybe sub-optimal choices in other words, maybe mistakes, but does it make it easier to deal with when it's like, okay, I'm living my Ephesians 2:10 Calling, and ... Do you know what I mean? Sometimes we can be our own worst critic and it's like, okay, I was young, I made mistakes but it's when you're using your gifting in service of others, maybe it's a little easier to forgive yourself a little bit, if that makes some degree of sense.

Dean N:

Yeah. Yeah. I'd even add to that that sometimes the pain in your life, ultimately, turns into your calling. It has for you, and it has for others. Who better to guide and coach than someone who has been down a path that you're struggling with? It may be divorce, who knows what it may be. Yeah. Sometimes pain turns into this opportunity to help others and, ultimately, find joy in the pain that you had before because you're serving others. For sure.

Warwick F:

Absolutely. You come across some maybe 30, 40 something person in the world of finance who is just killing it and has got the fast car and the boat and the houses and is doing great. Who better to talk to that person than Dean Niewolny? It's like I've been there. You know? I was you. You don't want to be doing that in 20 years time. You'll have no relationship with your wife or kids. Trust me, you don't want to be there.

Warwick F:

You would be the perfect person to minister to that person, right? You know?

Dean N:

Yeah.

Warwick F:

Well, thank you. Thank you for what you do and I love what you do in Half Time. Just your book Trade Up: How To Move From Just Making Money to Making A Difference. Really, I want listeners to hear we're not against success. You just don't want success, as you very well put it, to be an idol. Success is fine, if you use it for the right purposes. You just don't want to worship it. Easier said than done.

Warwick F:

Half Time is a great organization. They will help you understand in the practical ways how to move from success to significance and, ultimately, to surrender. I mean, it's all the Lord's and we're just here as managers and his servants. That's the ultimate destination spiritually and in terms of joy and fulfillment. Thank you so much.

Dean N:

Yeah. Thank you, Warwick. Gary, thank you.

Gary S:

The flight manifest would say that this is the time for the captain to actually land the plane but I have radioed the cockpit to just delay that a little bit because I want to make one thing clear to our listeners from you, Dean, and that is this, I think when people hear the name Half Time, they're like me, they may not be very good at math but they can divide things in two and they go, "Okay, Half Time, if you're supposed to change your life from success to significance, Half Time means if the average life expectancy is, let's say, 85, there I go, I give myself a number 84, you go to 42, it's at 42 that you're supposed to do this."

Gary S:

It's not exactly that specific. You've described it, it's not so much an age Half Time, as it's, what? How would you define it for people to help them understand?

Dean N:

Sure. It's a season of life. It's the season that you're in. Half Time, the sweet spot used to be the 45 to, let's say, 60 year old. What we have seen is that now 20 somethings and 80 somethings, are in that season of Half Time. It's not defined by age. It's defined by the season of life that you're in. You can have smoldering discontent when you're 27 years old. We just had a gentleman go through our program who is 27. He was trying to figure out what's next. We had someone who was 83.

Dean N:

Great question, Gary. The Half Time does sound like it's 45 years old or whatever but it's really much broader than that.

Gary S:

That sound you just heard was the captain putting the plane on the ground. Last words have been spoken on this conversation. Listener, I have a different ending than I normally do here and that's this, because we just kind of expressed this idea, maybe we're listening to this going, "Well, I'm 27. I don't have to worry about this." What Dean just said was it's for anybody. It's a season of life. It's never too early. I think everybody on this conversation would agree, it's never too early to begin thinking about how you can live your life, pursue your purpose, to help others to live your life of significance.

Gary S:

I would say that the learning, your homework assignment here regardless of whether you're 24 or 94, your homework assignment here is to go back and to listen to the section where Dean talks about those five characteristics of people who finish well. They know their calling, they're living their calling, they have cheerleaders, what Dean described as a personal board of directors who can speak truth to them, they're really focused on their family, they have taken care of their health. It's really hard to live your life with significance if you have to live your life marginally because your health has suffered. Especially in your earlier years in life, take care of your health. Then finally, the flexibility, so that when they change your son's sporting event to 10 miles away, you're like, "Okay, great. I get to spend 10 more minutes in the car to chat with my boy." That's the way to look at it.

Gary S:

Listener, thank you so much for spending time with us on this episode of Beyond The Crucible. We hope you have learned some things here that will, indeed, help you as you look to move beyond your crucible. We really encourage you to remember, as you think about what we've discussed on this show, what Warwick and Dean have discussed, hopefully, it's come through loud and clear that your crucible experiences are painful. We know that. We have two men here who have described their crucible as different crucibles, some similarities but different circumstances but the emotions are the same and they're painful, painful things.

Gary S:

Here's the good news, your crucible is not the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of that crucible, if you apply the lessons from that crucible to your life moving forward, it can be the leaping off point to a whole different and a whole better life. Far from being the last chapter in your story, your crucible can be the beginning of a new story, a new chapter in your story, and the best one of all, because where it leads, by the time you get to the final period on the final page, where it leads is to a life of significance.