We say often on the show that crucibles don’t happen to us, they happen for us. And in this second episode of our special summer series, LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure, we examine that truth as played out in the story of Batman. It’s a powerful tale about how Bruce Wayne did not let the unimaginable trauma of seeing his parents murdered when he was a boy keep him from a life of significance. He found purpose in his pain by training his body and his mind to strike fear into the hearts of those who would prey on the innocent. And if you think he does it as a lone vigilante … well, you just might change your mind after listening.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Eddie:

I'm getting out of here, man.




Nick:

Hey, shut up, man. Listen to me. There ain't no bat.




Eddie:

Yeah. Well, you shouldn't have turned the gun on that kid, man. You shouldn't have turned the gun on that-




Nick:

Hey, you want your cut of this money or not? Now, shut up, shut up.




Nick:

Don't kill me. Don't kill me, man. Don't kill me. Don't kill me, man.




Batman:

I'm not going to kill you. I want you to do me a favor. I want you to tell all your friends about me.




Nick:

What are you?




Batman:

I'm Batman.




Gary Schneeberger:

We say often on the show that crucibles don't happen to us, they happen for us. And in this second episode of our special summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure, we examine that truth as played out in the story of Batman. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. There have been no shortage of films through the years about Gotham City's Dark Knight. You might even say there have been a lot of bats in the cinematic belfry but Warwick and I spend most of our time this week discussing Batman 1989, starring Michael Keaton, who you just heard in that clip. It's a powerful story about how Bruce Wayne did not let the unimaginable trauma of seeing his parents murdered when he was a boy, keep him from a life of significance. He found purpose in his pain by training his body and his mind to strike fear into the hearts of those who would prey on the innocent. And if you think he does it as a lone vigilante, well, keep listening. You might just change your mind.




Gary Schneeberger:

I don't know when you got into Batman first or became aware of Batman first, Warwick. For me, it was as a kid. I would come home from school and that old sixties TV show starring Adam West, which is a bit campy but fun for kids, that was always on television, and I watched that with religious fervor when I was a kid. In fact, last week, when we were talking about Captain America, you made reference to kind of your own love of heroes and how that came to be. I was such a superhero geek. I have pictures of me with a birthday cake when I'm like six months old, a year old with Batman on the cake. That's what a geek I was.




Gary Schneeberger:

My brother, who's 14 years older than me, my brother, Dean, still makes fun of me because I used to call the little toys I had of Batman, I used to call them bendy men because they had like bendable things on them. So he still will ask me, because he sees things like this guy right here, who doesn't bend, but he'll see things that I have in my superhero memorabilia collection and ask if they're bendy men. So that's where my bonafides to be part of this series and my excitement comes from, but what was your first introduction to Batman that you can remember?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's the same as for you. I mean, in Australia, we had three commercial networks, channel nine, seven and 10, and so, they were all looking for content. So, a lot of our programming was the same as the US. So we absolutely, in the sixties, had the Batman TV series and growing up in the sixties and seventies, like you, I loved it, and we'll talk about this. In a sense, I could identify with Bruce Wayne growing up in this wealthy background, and yeah, I wasn't exactly Batman at night or during the day or whatever, and I didn't go into the layer of the Riddler or the Joker, and as you remember, whenever Adam West went in there, they always turned the camera like at a diagonal. So you had to-




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

Turn your head left to sort of follow it. Every time he hit somebody, it would get like bam, pow, and there'd be like little cartoon animation, but I mean, I guess it was campy, but growing up then, you didn't think about that as a kid. You've got this good guy who is fighting evil and he's heroic and has Robin beside him and Commissioner Gordon and the whole thing. So yeah, I loved that TV series and have been a fan of Batman and his heroic deeds ever since.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the things that is a touch point for a lot of folks of a certain age and even today, because it's on reruns on some cable networks, that is a common reference point, that TV show from the sixties, of a lot of folks when it comes to the Batman character. But that wasn't the first filmed entertainment of the Batman character. In fact, the first filmed entertainment was on the big screen, was on the movie screen and that was in 1943, just four years after the character was created in 1939 in Detective Comics, now called DC comics. They did those, if you remember, Warwick, those film serials that they would run. They would run them before the feature, not that you saw them because they were in the forties, but the concept is familiar.




Gary Schneeberger:

They would run these cliff hanger things. The Indiana Jones movies were kind of based off that, the rhythms of those old serials where there'd be like a self-contained half an hour and then the hero would be in danger at the end and you'd have to come back next week to see if he survived. But there were two of those, one in 1943 on Batman and Robin, and then they did another one in 1949. So, that was the cinematic birth, if you will, of Batman. But if you've been paying attention to the culture, listener, you know that one nor the sixties TV show were the last iterations of Batman that have made an impact on culture. You might say there's been a lot of bats in the cinematic belfry when it comes to Batman because in 1989, and that's going to be the focus of what we talk about mostly here is the 1989 film Batman starring Michael Keaton, which was kind of the birth of modern day superhero movies.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yes, I was a big fan of Superman back in 1978, but that was a little bit more ... They had a little bit of camp to it, but there was humor involved. Lex Luthor, the bad guy played by gene Hackman, was a little funny and there wasn't a lot of explosions and stunts and those kind of things going on in that movie. But Batman 1989 really brought that home. A film starring Michael Keaton and directed by Tim Burton, had a real cinematic flare to it and that really kicked off the modern superhero craze that we now see all the time where the top, any given year at the box office, right, seven of the top 10 movies are going to be superhero films. That's just the way it's been for the last couple of decades.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, Michael Keaton plays Batman in two movies, in 89. He comes back in Batman Returns, nicely titled. Then he leaves the role. Val Kilmer takes it over for Batman Forever. And then George Clooney takes it over in Batman and Robin and those movies, the one we're going to talk about today mostly is Batman, the original. Those movies got a little bit more campy as they went on and Michael Keaton left the role. Then there was a little bit of a pause for a while. And then Batman came back with Christian Bale playing Batman and some of the most acclaimed films in the Batman canon were Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Returns, all starting Christian Bale. Heath Ledger played the joker in the middle of one of those, The Dark Knight, and after he passed away, he won an Oscar for his portrayal. Fantastic, a lot grittier, but still captured the beats of Batman.




Gary Schneeberger:

That wasn't the end. Then just a couple years ago in 2016 and 2017, Ben Affleck shows up as Batman in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, and then in Justice League. And just this spring, in 2022, just a few months back, another Batman film premiered, came out, new Batman, sort of a new take on it, a new iteration. And that was The Batman starring Robert Pattinson, who was best known and made a lot of Batman fans kind of go, what, when he was cast because he was in the Twilight movies, those teen drama movies about a vampire and a werewolf vying for the affections of a young girl. So, I've seen all of those movies and what we'll talk about here, we're going to spend a lot of our time, most of our time focused on the 1989 Batman with Michael Keaton, but there are beats that run throughout all these movies that we're going to draw on.




Gary Schneeberger:

So with that, Warwick, what, as we are about to jump in to talk about Batman, you've seen all these films or most of these films, you're aware of what they're going on, why do you think, just, I haven't asked you this question before, why do you think Batman shows up so often and gets rebooted so many times? We've seen it a lot with Spiderman on the other side, on the Marvel cinematic universe, but in the DC cinematic universe, Batman's shown up even more than Superman on the big screen.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I think starting with the 1989 version of Batman, Batman isn't really a cartoon superhero. There's some depth. He's a troubled soul in a way in these versions is a darkness, in a sense, but, and we'll talk about this obviously a fair bit, there's a redemptive quality of being able to face his inner demons. It's not easy. He's haunted by them in various iterations, but he uses his pain to really focus on others, to help the world, help Gotham City, help the people, and so there's this sense of he's troubled, but not defeated. He's down, but not out. And maybe there's something about there's darkness, but yet, there's a purpose. It's just a character that people are haunted by, in a good sense. He's not this everything's fine and it's all good. It's he's faced challenges, but yet, he fights them and despite his challenges, he, in a sense, overcomes them and lives a life of significance, focused on others. I think that's probably some of the reasons perhaps the people really resonate.




Gary Schneeberger:

And if Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible had a superhero mascot, Batman would be a pretty good example, wouldn't he? I mean, all of them, that's why we're doing this series because superheroes and other movie heroes have had crucibles in their films and they overcome them. But what you just described, Batman seems like he could be kind of an emblem for ... And I would endorse that if we wanted to make Batman the emblem of Crucible Leadership.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, here's another ... I mean, obviously, I don't have a secret identity or at least if I do, I'm not telling anybody, but no, I don't have a secret identity, and obviously, I didn't go through what Bruce Wayne did in terms of his parents, but as listeners would know, I too grew up in a very wealthy background, and I didn't want to be defined by privilege. Didn't want that to be who I was known by. I'd like to think I lead a life with Crucible Leadership focused on helping others. I too had a Butler.




Warwick Fairfax:

So when you grow up in a wealthy family, sometimes you do. These days not always, frankly, but when I grew up, my dad, who was in his late fifties when I was born, he grew up before World War I, believe it or not. So, he grew up in that Victorian era, and so we had a butler and a chauffeur and a few others. So, my butler was an English butler, Joe Welton, Mr. Welton. He'd be offended if we called him, Joe, Mr. Welton. So I didn't have an Alfred, but I had a Mr. Welton and yeah, he didn't exactly get me ready for missions and all, but yeah, so in that sense, I can identify with that side of Bruce Wayne, certainly.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, and that's something that we really have to focus on as we go through this discussion. This is, of course, not my voice. This is me speaking through the armored Batman helmet that Ben Affleck wore in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. So, I had to throw this in before we go into a more serious discussion of what we're going to talk about here.




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh, that is great. That is so good. That is channeling your inner Batman. So yeah, maybe we can come up with a Batman mask with Crucible Leadership on top. We'll see if we can do that without breaking copyright.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, for sure. Where we want to kind of start talking about here is the idea of what makes Batman Batman. And I think there are key things, as I said, there are key things in all these different movie versions that sort of run through them all, but one of the chief ways that Batman fights crime, one of the chief ways that he defeats, whether it's organized crime or it's super villains, is through leveraging his outward appearance, his embracing of the bat persona to really strike fear into the hearts of those who would prey on others.




Gary Schneeberger:

So that was a short clip, Warwick, but it was a very effective one of Michael Keaton's Batman really kind of debuting in the sense of, he appears to these villains who kind of have heard rumors that there's this guy, there's this creature stalking the alleyways of Gotham City at night. Then he makes his appearance and he's not going to kill him. He's not about that. We'll talk about that too. He wants to strike fear into their hearts, and he wants to do that by having them go tell their friends all about him, so that their friends know it's not a rumor. There is a Batman stalking the streets of Gotham and protecting its citizenry from that evil element. Very effective scene and not just in terms of the film, but in setting up who Batman is, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. I mean, Batman is somebody that strikes, as you say, fear in the heart of evil doers, because they never know where he is going to be lurking, what building he's going to be looking down on them. At any moment, he could swoop down with his sort of ... In his bat cape and intimidate them and yeah, just strike fear into their hearts. So, next time they rob somebody or worse, they're going to be thinking, well, where's Batman, he's everywhere. And am I safe? Maybe I shouldn't do that bad thing. So in this sense, striking fear into his enemies is a good thing, because it might make them think twice before doing something evil. So it's very effective. Just his sheer persona and presence is effective.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And the reason that we're talking about Batman here on a show called Beyond the Crucible, about how you move beyond your crucibles, is because Batman and all the heroes that we're going to be talking about in this series, from their crucible grows their life of significance, grows their heroism in some way, be that super heroism or sports heroism, or general kind of action heroism. It's from crucibles that that's birthed. And the crucible in the life of Batman begins when he's young Bruce Wayne, he's a boy and it's depicted very effectively in the movie that we're talking about here, Batman in 1989, but it's depicted in every movie in one way or another. And that is, his parents are walking him home after a night at the theater and a bad guy, a robber, shows up on the scene, pulls a gun and kills Batman's parents, who are rich, who have ... Batman's dad, very well known patron of the arts and businessman in Gotham City.




Gary Schneeberger:

Bad guy comes in, in this movie, 1989's Batman with Michael Keaton, it's a guy named Jack Napier who shoots Bruce Wayne's parents, and he's orphaned at a young age. They don't say exactly how old he is, but he's probably ... He looks like he's about eight, nine years old. His parents are murdered right before him. When it comes to crucibles that superheroes go through, I can't think of one that's probably as emotionally devastating as that. That would be a ... That's a tough one to get over. And all the Batman movies do a good job of showing the struggles that Bruce Wayne has as he moves on.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you're a young boy and we don't know his exact age, but he looks like his younger than 10, so I don't know if it's 7, 8, 9, he's a young kid, to see your parents murdered in front of you by this evil villain, that is going to give you nightmares. That's going to traumatize you. Frankly, that's going to screw you up. I mean, it's hard not to be screwed up by something so horrific at a young age. And so, the test he's going to face throughout his life is, am I going to be defined by this crucible? Am I going to let it defeat me and destroy me? Yes, it's probably going to haunt me for the rest of my life in a sense, but am I going to try and channel this pain that I feel for something good, something that's beneficial?




Warwick Fairfax:

And so, it's a horrendous experience. It traumatizes him. It clearly damages him. And really, the arc of the Batman movies is what does he do with his damage and trauma? Does he let it define him or does he channel it in a way that's more beneficial?




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. In one of the movie series that we've talked about, the Christian Bale version of Batman, adds another beat on top of his parents being killed. And that is why he embraced a bat as his symbol. In Batman Begins, the first Christian Bale movie, before his parents are killed, Bruce falls through a well on the family property, and he ends up in this bat cave well under the ground. And he's very afraid because bats are milling about, he's very young and he's frightened of bats. And what ends up happening after his parents are killed is he's trying to find a way to avenge their deaths and to keep Gotham City safe. He adopts ... He learns to overcome his fear of bats.




Gary Schneeberger:

And he says this, Christian Bale's Batman says this about why he chose the bat as his identity. He said, "People need dramatic symbols to shake them out of their apathy. And I can't do that as Bruce Wayne. As a symbol, I can be incorruptible. I can be everlasting." So that is a little bit of a shading on why he picks bats that both allows him to shake up the populace to have something to believe in, while at the same time doing what we talked about earlier, striking fear into the hearts of the underworld in Gotham City and the villains of Gotham City, because let's face it, nobody really likes bats. They're scary, but he learns to master that fear. Again, one of the principles of bouncing back from your crucible is mastering fear. He uses that to master his fear. He then leverages the symbol of the bat to strike fear into the hearts of villains.




Gary Schneeberger:

And really, I mean, the way that this is a perfect crucible leadership story is that out of his crucible of losing his parents, Bruce Wayne commits himself to protecting others from having to go through similar crucibles. We talk all the time about a life of significance. Bruce Wayne lives a double life of significance in the sense that he has a secret identity. Bruce Wayne is his secret identity. And as Batman, his life of significance is striking fear into the hearts of those who want to strike fear into other people. He becomes the thing that can challenge those forces that murdered his parents.




Gary Schneeberger:

That is, again, when you talk about a life of significance, when you talk about learning the lessons of your crucible, not staying in your crucible, but moving beyond it to live a life of significance to serve others, this is, while nobody we've had on the show, as far as I know, is a superhero with a secret identity, a lot of the emotional beats of what they've gone through, our guests have gone through, what you've gone through, what I've gone through, similar to what Bruce Wayne goes through in his arc to becoming Batman. In all seriousness, true?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely. You go through pain and suffering and in this iteration, Bruce Wayne embraces the trauma that he's gone through, the fear of bats and he uses that fear in channeling it in a good sense. That double life, sort of that second persona, allows him to be this figure that he probably couldn't have been with Bruce Wayne. It's just as I'm reflecting, I think of another sixties TV show, Zorro, in which you had Diego de la Vega, who was this sort of aristocratic noble in the then Spanish held California in, I don't know, 1830s or whatever it was, 1820s, and by day, he's this dilatant playboy guy, but at night, he's the Fox, Zorro, saving the people. The sort of, even for me being an English history fan, there was an early iteration, The Scarlet Pimpernel, in which there's been a lot of movies made on that in which you had an English noble dressed up as all sorts of disguises in the French Revolution to come over from England to France, to help rescue poor aristocratic ... Well, poor in spirit aristocratic French Nobles that are going to be killed.




Warwick Fairfax:

Now, obviously, how good were they? I don't know, but in the English telling of it, they're poor, persecuted aristocrats that need to be saved. So this sense of double life, there's a long history in that. Zorro is obviously very familiar with folks. So, there's something about that that enables Batman to do what he couldn't do as Bruce Wayne. Maybe he's a Playboy and a bit of philanthropist, but if Bruce Wayne went around saying, I'm here to help you. It's like, I'm sorry, Bruce who? You? It just kind of wouldn't fly. He needed a persona to, in a sense, fully be the person he needed to be to help people, to save people.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And the other thing that I hadn't really thought in depth about until I watched Batman '89 with Michael Keaton to prep for this show is there's another aspect to Bruce Wayne/Batman's life of significance. And that's this, he's ... As we said, his dad was an industrialist, had a lot of money. He lives in this big mansion where he, in the movie, Batman '89, he says at one point, "I don't think I've ever been in this room," right? He has all these rooms in the house he doesn't know anything about. He's sort of disconnected from some of that part of his life, but that's part of his commitment to serving others, right? As we say, a life of significance, a life lived on purpose dedicated to serving others. He's got all this money, depending on what time you're plugging into. In the sixties, he was a millionaire. Now, he's a billionaire, but he does not use that money for his own advancement.




Gary Schneeberger:

He uses that money to build Batmobiles, to build the Batwing, the Batplane, Batboat, his Batarangs and his grappling guns. He uses the money to build crime fighting tools. There's a funny throwaway scene in the movie, Justice League, that goes back to Ben Affleck's Batman in 2017, and The Flash, who's one of the other heroes on the Justice League, asks Bruce Wayne, who's not in costume, he's just Bruce Wayne at the time, he says, "What's your superpower again?" And Bruce Wayne says, very, very humorously, but very, very poignantly, I think, too, he says, "I'm rich." His superpower is that he's rich. And that's part of what his superpower is because of the way he uses that wealth, to build up crime fighting tools that again, scare, put fear into the hearts of those who would put fear into the hearts of the populace, but also to help him win the battles that he wins against, we'll see in a minute here, he wins against people who are much more super-powered than he is.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, that's very true. I mean, obviously, growing up in a wealthy family, I relate to this, but he doesn't want to be defined by his money. He doesn't want to think, oh, just because I have money, I'm better than other people. He more sees the money he has as a way of helping other people. But certainly, in the '89 movie and probably others, he doesn't feel completely comfortable when Vicki Vale, who's his love interest in the '89 movie, asks him, is this really you? This whole Wayne Manor? He says, well, yeah, in a sense. But in a sense, it's not. They have dinner at this big long table where you've got to yell to hear the person at the other end of the table, which in reality, people really don't eat like that, even wealthy folks, but it makes for a humorous movie, and she says, are you comfortable like this? He says, actually no. So, they go eat with Alfred in the kitchen at just a smaller table.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, in one sense, he's not really that comfortable with this whole money image persona, but he uses what he has to help others. He does not let the wealth define him. He uses money in a way that helps to help define what he believes he wants to put his life to, which is helping people and saving people.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. I mean, he absolutely leverages that to further his life of significance. It's a piece that allows him to get there. One of the most fascinating things I've always found about Batman is that he's unique among superheroes in that he has no superpowers, right? Gamma radiation did not make him strong like it did the Hulk. A radioactive spider did not bite him and give him the power to climb up walls with just his fingertips. He's not an alien from another planet who can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes like Superman. He is, in many ways, an average everyday man, aside from the money. He has to work for, he has to cultivate his advantages over the villains he encounters. And as we think about this in the context of crucible leadership, you say it all the time, Warwick, you have to learn the lessons from your crucible and apply them.




Gary Schneeberger:

You have to grow, you have to move forward, take one small step, right? Batman didn't just go from his parents being killed to running in and fighting bad guys. In Batman Begins with Christian Bale, he gets trained in martial arts. He learns. He has to train his body and then train his mind to become a good detective, his body to become a good fighter, his mind to become a good detective. He has to create himself in a sense. And in that way, I think he's one of the most identifiable superheroes for us because none of us are going to be Superman, but any of us could be Batman. Seems fair, doesn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's such a good point, Gary. I mean, even Captain America that was a regular guy, but he received serum and grows a few inches and a lot of muscles and pounds, but in a sense, Batman is a self-made man. He makes him physically, you see in various iterations him working out and just honing his body, but just mentally, in terms of his character, he hones those aspects so that he's committed to fighting for people and saving people. And he uses technology in a way that will do it. So, it's all part of the plan: body, mind, spirit, character.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so in that sense, you're right to a degree. I mean, absent of money, not everybody has millions of dollars, so that's a bit different, but other than that, anybody can become fitter, physically fitter and certainly more mentally, spiritually agile, strength of character. I mean, really, so often the superpowers that we see in some of these characters, certainly Captain America, his superpower wasn't such his strength, it was his character, and I think that's true of Batman is that strength of character, the ability to turn dire circumstances into something that helps people, that's really a sense of strength of character that I think we can all aspire to and have the opportunity to emulate.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, he's a hero because of the choices he makes. He chooses to overcome, to work through. Even though he is, as is made clear in Batman 1989 with the Joker played by Jack Nicholson, that they have a lot of similar things in their personalities. Both of them have been met with dark forces. Batman chooses to follow light, not darkness though. He's damaged, as you pointed out in a lot of these movies and certainly in this one. He has suffered damage, but he doesn't live there. He doesn't allow himself to wallow there, right? We talk about that all the time. We talk about crucibles, not so that we can commiserate, but so that we can elevate.




Gary Schneeberger:

He is a character who elevates whereas the Joker is a character who denigrates, who devolves, and he embraces the darkness that he comes in contact with. Batman doesn't do that. He makes the choice not to do that.




Warwick Fairfax:

I think that's worth just for listeners to pause and consider what Gary's just been talking about. Because at its extreme, we all have a choice. And this is making a point by stating the extreme. We have a choice. Do we want to be Batman or the Joker? That might seem like, oh, well, what are you talking about? Well, there is this phrase, hurt people hurt people, and so left to its own devices, if you've been damaged, I mean, some people have faced physical crucibles, abuse, lost loved ones at an early age, lost businesses. There're all sorts of traumas that people go through.




Warwick Fairfax:

One path is to be bitter and angry, at yourself, at others, and just be filled with so much anger that, you know what, I've been hurt so much. The world is corrupt. It's evil and you know what? I'm not going to play. I'm not going to be a pawn anymore. I'm going to go out there and just look out for number one and hey, I was hurt, so I'm going to hurt others. Who cares? What's the point of it all? There's no hope. There's no God. There's no good. Let's just do whatever it takes to win. If that means hurting people, hey, I was hurt. That's just life. Let's go.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's almost a Joker kind of mentality. We don't know his full backstory in terms of why he grew up the way he did, but probably had his own traumas, but he's so hurt and damaged, he just wants to kill and hurt as many people as possible. So he chose the path of darkness. Again, you look at like the force in Star Wars and Darth Vader, you can choose the dark side or you can choose the light in the case of Star Wars, the force. So, Batman also was pretty screwed up with what he saw with his parents being killed. He could have gone down that Joker route and used his money to hurt people. That was an option, but he chose a redemptive act, to use his pain to help people.




Warwick Fairfax:

So at its extreme, we have a choice. And really, when you go through pain, it tends to be a binary choice. You either use your pain for a purpose to help others, or your pain will tend to devour you and destroy you. And frankly, if you are destroyed and full of pain, there's a very good chance whether you want to or not, you will start hurting other people. You may not want to, but as I said, why is it so true that people who were abused as kids typically abuse their kids? That's the norm. I can't fathom how that could be possible, but psychologists will tell you that's the norm or very common. So don't fool yourself into thinking, oh, I could never be the Joker. Well, at its extreme, if you don't learn the lessons of your crucible and use your pain to help others, there's another choice, the dark side, that will tend to consume you and probably others. So, it's more real than I think we realize.




Gary Schneeberger:

I'm going to jump ahead in our notes a little bit, just because what you just said is a great place to make this point. And that is Batman, especially in this 1989 movie, is not a vigilante. In more recent iterations of the character, there is a vigilantism about him, and people think of him in those terms. But in this movie, key scene when the Joker becomes the Joker. He is Jack Napier, just kind of a mob enforcer. He's in this chemical plant. He's been sold out by his boss because he's sleeping with his boss' girlfriend. Batman shows up and he's fighting with Jack Napier, and they're over a vat of chemicals. Batman's got him by the wrist as he's hanging over the vat of chemicals. And he falls into the vat of chemicals, Jack Napier does, and he becomes the Joker.




Gary Schneeberger:

I watched the movie again, and I was like, did he drop him on purpose or did it slip? And I actually went to the script, the actual final script of the movie, to get my answer because that's important. If he drops him, he's made a darker choice. He's more like the Joker than he probably wants to be, but he doesn't drop him on purpose. According to the script, it describes the action as this: Batman reaches, gets a poor grip. He stares, perplexed, at the stricken expression in Jack Napier's eyes. Jack's sliding out of Batman's grip. Jack looks up at him in terror and slips away.




Gary Schneeberger:

They did a novelization of that movie, of this movie, Batman, in 1989, and it says that's based on the fourth draft of the script. And this is what it says in that novelization: Jack lost the pipe, but the Batman held him. His grip wasn't firm. Jack could feel the Bat's cloth covered fingers slipping away. That's important to point out on the heels of what you said about he had to make a choice, and he has to make a choice pretty much every day, like all of us do when it comes to coming back from a crucible. It's not a one and done, as you've said, scores of times. Batman has to make a choice every day. Is he going to be for light or is he going to be for darkness? Because every day finds him in a position where he has the capabilities because of the way he's trained his body and because of the weapons that his money allows him to buy, he has the ability to end life like that. But that's not the way he operates in the most, for me, resonant iterations of the character.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's such a good point, Gary. I mean, basically, the point is you don't fight evil by becoming evil. And Batman makes that choice. It's like, look, I don't know that he realizes at that point who the Joker is, Jack Napier, in the sense of, well, who Jack Napier was before in the sense of the one who killed his parents. But the point is, he knew he was a bad guy, a mobster. He could have said like, one less mobster, let the guy die.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

But yet, he didn't. He was never about killing even bad guys. He was about protecting and saving people. His focus was on saving lives, saving humans, not so much on killing bad guys. In fact, Batman doesn't have guns. He has grappling hooks. He has tools. He doesn't run around killing people. I mean, that's sort of an interesting superhero, but yeah, he's all about protecting people. He's all about trying to live his values. He is not going to become the Joker in order to defeat the Joker. That's a choice he makes time and time again.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And in fact, in the movie, Batman v Superman, Ben Affleck and Henry Cavill as Superman, the reason that they're versus each other is that Batman is so upset that in an earlier battle, Superman, in fighting a villain, Zod, they just destroyed huge parts of Metropolis in their fight, and Batman was angry with Superman because he saw this unchecked power, not caring about the safety of the populace. He didn't value life from Batman's perspective. And that's why they're at odds with each other in that movie. Another beat, Warwick, that's interesting about Batman is that he didn't just train his body. Yeah, he's good with his feet and his fists, but he's also good with his mind.




Gary Schneeberger:

Key scene in the 1989 Batman movie is the Joker has, because he had a chemistry background, he was good at chemistry in high school his file indicates and he has rigged up these colognes and makeup and hairspray to when you use them all together, it's poison and it kills people and it leaves them with big smiles on their faces like he is left with, this immovable rictus on his face because he fell into the vat of chemicals. He creates this and Batman doesn't defeat it through might, at least not might of his body. He defeats it through the might of his mind. He has, in addition to training his body, he's trained his mind to become a true detective.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's one of the things that makes Batman stand out is that in this movie is a great example of it, he finds a way to examine the chemicals that are at play, what's killed these people, and he brings a detective's moxie and insight into letting the people of Gotham know, don't use this in concert with this and this product in concert with that, and he saves the day, not through his power of his fists, of his feet, of his fancy weapons, but through the power of his mind that he's developed. Again, one of those things that the character of Batman constantly getting better, constantly training both mind and body to meet the challenges, to keep peace in Gotham City.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. He uses his mind and analytical ability to figure out, okay, you can't use hairspray with shampoo or lipstick or whatever the combination of cosmetics are. And I think the wider point is often our greatest superpower is our mind, is how we think about things. Are we going to look at what happened to us as a life determining defeat? Are we going to look at it as something that provides an opportunity to help people channel what we've been through in a positive sense? So really, guarding our mind and how we think, making sure that it's focused on positive items of gratitude rather than negative items of retribution, grievance and anger, guiding our minds, our hearts, how we think is often the battle for our lives and which way it turns out is typically a battle within. It's our mind, our heart, our character, but it really starts with how we think, how we think determines the course of our lives.




Warwick Fairfax:

Batman was constantly using his mind, his thoughts, in a positive way, channeled in a positive direction. The Joker, he used his intellect to "how can I think of creative ways to kill people and terrorize them?"




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

As we see in the end of the movie with these big balloons full of poisonous gas. I mean, yeah, he had some creativity and intelligence, the Joker did, but he used it to kill people.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

So how we use our mind and how we train it is critical.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's a great pivot point for us to talk about something else that is in the story of Batman that's critical to what we talk about here at Beyond the Crucible, and that is Batman can be easily painted as a loner, right? He takes on crucibles and crime all by himself. He lost his parents as a boy, but in very real ways, he was not orphaned. And all the movies do a pretty good job of showing this because it's through the butler that you talked about earlier, Alfred the butler, that Batman has not just a compatriot who's behind him, who knows his identity and assists him, and in some of the more recent movies, Alfred's a bit of like an ex-British commando who's got a lot of military insights and ability. In this movie, Batman '89, and certainly in the TV show, he was just a kindly butler who offered love and encouragement to Bruce Wayne, who becomes a surrogate father to him when his parents are murdered.




Gary Schneeberger:

There's a scene in Batman '89 when Vicki Vale, who you mentioned was Batman's love interest, Bruce Wayne's love interest, comes over for dinner and they're sitting around, Bruce Wayne, Alfred and Vicki Vale, and they're talking and Alfred leaves to go do something for Bruce or to go to bed, and Vicki just looks at Bruce and says, "he really loves you a lot". And that is a spotlight on a truth, isn't it, Warwick, about crucible leadership that don't go it alone, surround yourself with those who believe in you, who can help pick you up when tough times come and show you the way forward. That's who Alfred is for Bruce Wayne/Batman, isn't he?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean, being orphaned like that, it can really screw you up, I'm sure. But Alfred does become this father figure, this figure that yes, he serves him in a sense, but he loves Bruce Wayne and wants to protect him. He always has his best interest at heart. He encourages Bruce to tell Vicki Vale who he is, to take the risk, and as we see in the movie, eventually he can't quite get it done. He gets interrupted at different times, once by the Joker, but eventually, Alfred brings Vicki Vale into the Batcave. I don't think he asks Bruce Wayne. He just does it.




Gary Schneeberger:

No.




Warwick Fairfax:

And it's like, you know what? I'm going to take matters into my own hands here. Vicki Vale is a nice woman, nice girl and there's something there. And so, Alfred always has Bruce Wayne/Batman's best interest at heart, and by the end of the movie, not only does Bruce Wayne have Alfred, he has Vicki Vale that knows who he is and believes in him. Having people that know us warts and all, in this case, he, Bruce, has two people that know everything about him, things that many people don't, but that know who you are, know in this sense that he's a tortured soul, Bruce Wayne, but yet love him and believe in him anyway, having unconditional love from friends and family is absolutely critical to us being able to get beyond our crucible, and in fact, being able to turn it into a positive life to help others. So, it begs the question, could Bruce Wayne have become Batman without Alfred? I think not, it's hard to really conceive of that happening. So, it's critical to have people that believe in you in your life.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. I mean, that is a ... And again, that's a story that we hear all the time on the show, people who have, and you talk about it in your book, have a team of fellow travelers, have some people who understand who you are, ask people what your gifts and talents are, so that you can get an idea of what that next act is going to look like as you move beyond your crucible. It's critical. And so often, Batman's sort of pegged as this lone figure, but even in the current movies, Batman's the one in Justice League who convenes the team. Batman sees that he can't do it all by himself if he's going to stamp out the evil that's going on. He needs other people with different gifts and talents than he has to take the battle to the bad guy. And that's not loner behavior on his part at all.




Gary Schneeberger:

He's the guy, he's the agent who's bringing all of those folks together. You mentioned this idea of people who know you, people who can identify with you, and I'm going to jump ahead just a little bit again, I mentioned earlier that my love of Batman began when I was a kid, and it was from the TV show. And one of the things I loved about that TV show was the campy, sort of silly flirtations that Batman had with Catwoman, played by Julie Newmar. The relationship that they had was cute and it was playful and it was fun, even for me as a kid who still thought girls had germs when I was like eight or nine or however old I was, but in The Dark Knight Rises, which is the third of the Christian Bale movies, that movie ends in a place that figures Alfred into the equation, as well as this idea of being known by someone.




Gary Schneeberger:

Batman and Catwoman know each other because they are also similar in some ways, some bad times in life, some broken ... Catwoman is a villain, but she's kind of got a good heart most of the time, and she's more of an anti-hero kind of villain in some ways, and there's attraction between them, but they know each other because they're both similar in the sense that they have secret identities. They have these things that they do to kind of beat back the demons that they had growing up. And there's a really sweet scene at the end of The Dark Knight Rises that made my little boy's heart leap with joy because Bruce Wayne/Batman disappears as that movie ends. Alfred, who's played in the Christian Bale movies by Michael Kane, an excellent actor, he goes to this cafe, I think it's in Paris. He looks at a table out in front, and there's Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle/Catwoman having a laugh and having a meal. And they put the camera on Alfred, and he smiles because he sees here's his surrogate son, here's the boy he raised happy.




Gary Schneeberger:

Talk about a life of significance. He's given, he's given, he's given, he's given. He's always been about what he could give, not what he could receive, and he has received, now, love because he's let someone in who understands him, knows who he is, both in the literal sense as he's Batman and Bruce Wayne, but also knows who he is in his heart. And that is that life of significance that pleases the people around us when they see us happy.




Gary Schneeberger:

Alfred's smile says everything about how much he loves Bruce Wayne and how much that story arc has sort of ended in a place where he's left ... He can leave what we talk about all the time, a grand legacy. Who knows what happens to them after that, Batman and Catwoman, Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle? Do they get married? Do they have kids? Do they go on to continue to make the world a better place? It's a beautiful ending, but it speaks to that idea of those who know you, those who love you will come alongside you, and that becomes part of your life of significance to pair up with them if that is the way that it's been laid out for you.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's such a good point, Gary. In the 1989 Batman movie with Bruce Wayne, getting together with Vicki Vale, and then in the Christian Bale version of the Batman trilogy, getting linked up with Selina Kyle as Catwoman, one of the challenges when you've been broken and damaged as Bruce Wayne/Batman was, is feeling that you are worthy of loving. Sometimes we can feel that we're so broken that almost like we feel that we're like a leper in biblical times, unclean, stay away. Anybody that gets near me will be damaged. I'm not worth it. I'm not worth loving. And so part of healing and getting beyond your crucible is being able to receive love, because it can be this notion, if you really knew me, if you really knew what I've done, who I am, you would hate me. You would run. You couldn't love me.




Warwick Fairfax:

Sadly, there's many people out there that think that, but in both iterations, whether it's Batman, whether it's the Michael Keaton or the Christian Bale version, not easily, but he lets people in. Alfred, but then, a love interest, be it Vicki Vale, or in this case, Selina Kyle as Catwoman. So, I think for all of us, we've got to believe that we are worth loving. Yes, we have faults and flaws, but there are going to be people out there that will accept us and love us because of who we are, and frankly, as we're able to move beyond our crucibles and help others, that, in a sense, helps. You're not very attractive if you're just a narcissist that's griping and complaining and wants to damage people. Forgetting ethics and morality, that's not attractive.




Warwick Fairfax:

Somebody that knows who they are and are just trying to use their pain to help others, people are more going to want to be with somebody like that. And so it's no wonder that Vicky Vale and Selina Kyle as Catwoman see the good in Bruce Wayne and Batman and want to be with him. That's an important lesson. We are worth loving and we want to be the kind of person in terms of what we do with our lives that people will want to love, if you will. It's about that.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, yeah. That's an excellent point. And oh, I see the Bat-Signal up in the sky, which indicates it's almost time for us to have to run out and save Gotham City. But before we do, let's make one last point, I think, which is a good place to kind of land the plane as I normally say, when I'm not talking about superheroes, when it's about time to end the show and that's this idea that there's a key part in Batman, the 1989 version, and key to Batman in that movie is that he just doesn't give up, right? He just does not give up, even though it's hard. When Vicki Vale asks him late in the movie, why he keeps putting his life on the line for a city that doesn't always deserve it and rarely appreciates it in some cases, he says, very simply, it's what I have to do because nobody else can.




Gary Schneeberger:

This is a man, Batman is an example we can follow of accepting responsibility for the calling we've been given, moving in that calling that we've been given and doing it even when it's hard, right? Warwick, you talk all the time about when crucibles happen, you can lie in bed and pull your head under the covers and just hope it goes away or you can get up and you can take one small step forward. Batman truly is a good example, a great example, as hard as it is, of continuing to put one foot in front of the other and taking small steps, because it's what I have to do. Nobody else can.




Gary Schneeberger:

Think about that, listener, in your own crucible experiences when you're looking at your calling. You are uniquely called to your calling. Nobody else can do it the way that you do it. Your calling is your calling for a reason. So, this idea that it's what I have to do, nobody else can do it, add onto the sentence, the way that I can do it, is true for Batman and it's true in a very, very real non-goofy superhero sense for all of us when it comes to our calling. No one's going to do that. If we feel called to something, no one's going to be able to do that exactly like we are. And that's why we have to find the fortitude to keep moving forward, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, that's such a good point. Calling is a great word. What is our calling? It will often come out of the pain, the suffering, even the darkness that we face, but that sense of calling, which we define as a life of significance, a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, when you truly believe, I mean, Bruce Wayne feels like there's nobody else that can do what I can do. He's there to help people, save people. When you feel like I have the unique ability in my own area, neighborhood, in my own way to help people, that sense of calling tends to enhance your sense of perseverance. This is not about me. I need to keep going. There are people depending on me. It could be my family. It could be friends, people at work, people that we want to help with, organizations we volunteer with, the sense of it's more than just me, it's not about me, it helps you give a sense of perseverance to prevail.




Warwick Fairfax:

I know we're sort of summing up here. There's sort of maybe one other point I'd like maybe to leave listeners with is that, we've talked a lot in this episode about choice. Do you hide under the covers? Do you let the trauma that you went through or the mistakes you made define you, or are you going to seek to overcome them and using your pain for purpose to help others? And at its extreme, in which movies often give us the extreme version to help bring clarity, in Batman in the 1989 version and others, there is a choice. Do you want to be a redemptive figure like Batman that uses his pain to help others? Or do you want to be a narcissist devoted to inflicting pain on others like the Joker?




Warwick Fairfax:

And it sounds awfully extreme, redemption versus narcissism, or let's say redemption versus pain, hurt people, hurt others. If you're not set on a path of redemption to helping others, I don't see how you'll ... It'll be very difficult to avoid being on a path in which not only do you hurt yourself, but you'll hurt others. Redemption versus a path of self destruction to yourself and to others. It sounds awfully extreme, but I think there's some truth in that analogy. And so, it just sounds awfully comic book-like to say who would you rather be, Batman or the Joker, but it's more true than we would think, that binary choice. It's clearly an extreme version in this movie, but there is some truth behind that.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that, listener, is a perfect place for us to land the Batplane, to land the Batwing. We hope that you've enjoyed this discussion of Batman as it pertains to crucible leadership and moving beyond your crucible. I said it before, I say it all the time on the show that the experiences that we've been through, that you and I and Warwick have been through, not the same as what Bruce Wayne/Batman has been through, but the emotional feelings and the emotional needs moving forward are indeed the same.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, we hope you've enjoyed this episode of Lights, Camera, Crucibles. And next week, if you want to do your homework, I don't want to call it homework because then you won't want to do it, if you want to do the preparation work, next week, Warwick and I are going to unpack one of our favorite films and that's The Natural, in which Robert Redford plays arguably the greatest baseball player of all time. It's a wonderful kind of allegorical mythical story of what being great really is. Spoiler alert, it's not all about what's on the field.




Gary Schneeberger:

Until that next time that we're together, do remember this, listener, that we understand your crucibles are difficult. We understand they're tough. We understand that they can lead you to feel that you're in a dark place, but they are not the end of your story. If you learn the lesson of your crucible and you move beyond it by applying that lesson to the next step you take, and the next step you take, and the next step you take as you pursue your life of significance, your story's not over at all. It's just getting started because where it leads to, as I said, is the best destination you can ever imagine, and that is a life of significance.

Our eight-week summer series, LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES, kicks off this week. We examine some of the most popular film heroes — superheroes, sports heroes and action heroes — to extract key learnings and practical action steps to help you move beyond your crucibles to a life of significance. We begin with Captain America, whose “I can do this all day” attitude offers inspiration for staying strong and standing tall when setbacks and failures come. What makes Captain America, aka Steve Rogers, heroic is not the super soldier serum that transforms him from a 120-pound weakling rejected by the army several times during World War II into a muscular front-line fighter who beats the Nazis. What truly makes Steve Rogers Captain America is not something given to him, but something he had all along: character.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Abraham Erskine:

The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great; bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen, because a strong man, who has known power all his life may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength and knows compassion.




Steve Rogers:

Thanks, I think.




Abraham Erskine:

Whatever happens tomorrow, you must promise me one thing, that you will stay who you are, not a perfect soldier, but a good man.




Gary Schneeberger:

When you boil it all down, that's a succinct, extremely accurate description of what a hero is, a good man or a good woman. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show. That clip you just heard is from the movie Captain America: The First Avenger.

Our focus today, as we launch our new summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us about Overcoming Setbacks and Failure. We chose Captain America, not only because we're debuting this series on the day after Independence Day in the U.S., but also because of the lessons the shield-wielding hero and his alter-ego, Steve Rogers, reveal about moving beyond crucibles with an attitude of, "I can do this all day." What makes Steve Rogers heroic is not the super soldier serum that transforms him from a 120-pound weakling rejected by the Army several times during World War II, into a muscular frontline fighter who beats the Nazis. What truly makes Steve Rogers Captain America is not something he was given, but something he had all along, character.

Our goal here in doing this is to make this a fun and insightful time. Each of these eight episodes that we have planned... You've heard of the phrase popcorn movies, summer movies that are big, blockbuster excitements. We're hoping this becomes a popcorn podcast, that it offers excitement, inspiration, hope, healing, and some practical actions steps for you while we all have a little bit of fun.

The series is all about... You may have gotten the idea when I said, "Lights, Camera, Crucibles," that in fact it's about movies. It is, but specifically, it's about movie heroes, a mix of superheroes, sports heroes, action heroes, when they all have one common denominator. That's this. Their stories just don't entertain us; they enlighten us.

One of the things we say the show always aims to do, in the intro, especially on the YouTube version that you can run over and see, we always talk about how we want to enlighten people. We don't want to commiserate; we want to elevate. That's the goal of this series. Entertain, yes, but elevate, for sure.

The films that we've chosen, and we're going to keep them secret week to week, we'll tell you... You kind of have a hint of what the first one's going to be, because you heard the clip at the start of the show, but these are all films that Warwick and I love, and millions of movie goers besides us love. Sometimes, for generations they have loved these characters. 

It's not because, or at least not just because I am a superhero geek, a bit of a fanboy. It's not because Warwick loves history and loves heroes and has since he was a boy, but it's because these movies all surround themes that we discuss every week on Beyond the Crucible. Some of those themes are overcoming your worst day; learning and applying the lessons of your crucibles; shifting your perspective to understand that these setbacks and failures didn't happen to you but happened for you; the importance of faith and authenticity and living a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others; and sometimes having a secret identity and wearing a cool costume. Okay, I made that one up. That's not something that we have always talked about on Beyond the Crucible, but we may talk a little bit about it today. Stay tuned. We have some surprises.

Like any good summer activity, we hope this does two things: one, that we have fun, that you have fun; and two, we get to spend some meaningful time together. That's our goal here. Have fun. Spend some meaningful time together. We think that we'll do just that. Warwick, what are your feelings? I've been blabbing here. What are your feelings about starting this Lights, Camera, Crucible series about movie heroes?




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, I think both of us... I love heroic movies, be it superhero movies, historical movies, books, figures. I mean, I grew up with my dad telling me about some of the heroic figures in history, whether... Obviously, in America, we think of Washington and Lincoln. Because my dad was an anglophile, I grew up hearing stories about Admiral Nelson of Battle of Trafalgar fame, and the Napoleonic Wars, and the Duke of Wellington at Waterloo. 

I think what attracts me to heroic figures is they're typically up against odds. They're tested both physically, strategically, but they're tested in their character and they always come through. That's the essence of being a hero. You are tested and you come through, and your character, if anything, is refined or sharpened at times, but they're people that we can learn from. When we suffer challenges and crucibles, how can we emerge better, stronger, especially in our character? How can we be focused on others, rather than just ourselves? There are so many teachable moments in these larger than life figures, that we love talking about them not so much because, oh, who of us will ever be Captain America? It's more we love the story, and we like to think that we could see ourselves in the movie, or we like to think, on our better days, we too could be selfless and heroic, even in small ways, so it inspires us to be better than maybe we thought we could be. That's why I think we all love heroic figures in movies.




Gary Schneeberger:

To level set beyond just what the excellent points that Warwick made, but it's not just us. We're not just the only two people who think this is a worthwhile subject to talk about, how you can apply some of the lessons of hero movies to your life. Psychology Today did an article a couple years back that it called Five Surprising Ways That Heroes Improve Our Lives. We're going to go through those five ways here, just so you get an idea of why it is we're spending, we're committing so much time and effort and energy to this series and this subject.

Here's the first reason that Psychology Today says heroes improve our lives. Number one: Heroes produce a recently identified emotion called elevation. This one fascinated me. That's why they made it number one, I'm sure. Recent research suggests that heroes and heroic action may evoke a unique emotional response, which a professor at NYU has called elevation. 

He borrowed the term elevation from Thomas Jefferson, who used the phrase moral elevation to describe the euphoric feeling one gets when reading great literature. The article goes on to say, "Elevation is described as similar to calmness, warmth, and love." The professor at NYU argues that elevation is "elicited by acts of virtue or moral beauty. It causes warm, open feelings in the chest." Seems like a lot of the beats that we talk about in crucible leadership, especially when it comes to the benefits of living a life of significance and the benefits that that has on other people, doesn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Think of when you're in high school, or maybe you've had kids in high school. One of the things you always say is, "You are judged by who you surround yourself with," so surround yourself with people that will elevate you, people that will respect you, value you, people that you can really help yourself.

The people you're around can elevate you. On the other hand, if you're around the wrong crowd, it can lead to terrible things. In some cases, sadly, in high school or beyond, it can lead to drugs, substance abuse, gangs, terrible things. 

One of the great things about heroic movies is you're surrounding yourself with folks that elevate you. Some people talk about appealing to your better angels. We're all a mix of good qualities and not so good. All of us are imperfect, but by watching heroic movies, it can indeed elevate you. It can appeal to your better angels. It can appeal to your better instincts. It does what we all want to have happen with ourselves and our kids. We all want to be our best selves. I honestly believe that heroic movies play a role, if not a significant role, in our culture, in the ability to help us all be the best selves that we can be.




Gary Schneeberger:

That leads very nicely, Warwick, to the second point in this Psychology Today article, and that is that heroes heal our psychic wounds. It says, "Tens of thousands of years ago, when humans first tamed fire, tribe members huddled around a communal fire at the end of each day for warmth and protection, but the act of gathering around the fire encouraged another activity, storytelling. These first stories were, no doubt, tales of heroes and heroic action, and these tales were a salve for people's psychological wounds. Hero stories calmed people's fears, buoyed their spirits, nourished their hopes, and fostered important values of strength and resilience. Life now had greater purpose and meaning. There is no doubt that humans today are no different from our earthly ancestors. We are drawn to good hero stories, because they comfort us and heal us." Another fair point, with what we're about to talk about, what we've all experienced in watching these films.




Warwick Fairfax:

That is so profoundly true, Gary. I mean, human beings, for thousands of years, ever since we were humans, have, as you said, gathered around the campfire and told stories of heroic deeds. Every culture that I know of has these stories.

I know, for me, as I've mentioned before, I think, on other podcast episodes and in my book, Crucible Leadership, my dad read me heroic stories of the Greek heroes from a book from, I don't know, somewhere in the 1800s by Charles Kingsley, called The Heroes. You'd hear stories of Perseus; Jason and the Argonauts; and stories of the Trojan Wars, which there have been a few recent movies on that; and stories of Odysseus taking 10 years to come home to his beloved wife, Penelope. The gods were sort of angry at him for a variety of reasons, but he wouldn't let it stop him. Nothing would stop him from coming home to his kingdom, to his people, and to his wife. The Greeks, thousands of years ago, would sit around campfires or wherever they were gathered and tell stories of these incredible heroes in their culture.

It's just, it's part of being human is to tell stories of heroes in our culture. It reinforces our culture, our values, and again, helps us be our best selves. Telling stories is an intrinsic part of being human.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yep, and the podcast is today's answer to the campfire, in many, many ways, in terms of the stories that are being told around it. Here's the third point in Psychology Today's article: Heroes nourish our connections with other people. "The content of hero stories," they write, "also promotes a strong sense of social identity. If the hero is an effective one, he or she performs actions that exemplify and affirm the community's most valued models, who perform behaviors that reinforce our most treasured values and connections with others." We're really going to get into that, not just in today's episode, which is about Captain America. It's not a spoiler alert; you heard it in the clip, but about all the heroes that we talk about. They really do reinforce our most treasured values and connections with others.

One of the things that draws me to these kinds of movies is that I see in the characters I love and I appreciate the higher aspirations that I have for myself. I think that's a fair point to make about why these films are so popular. Yeah, the special effects are great. Yeah, the dialogue's snappy. The action's good, but at the end of the day, it's the character of the heroes and the values of the heroes, I think, on which these movies rise and fall.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we like to see ourselves as a Steve Rogers, who overcame his crucibles and was selfless. We like to identify with these heroes. We like to think, in some small way, maybe there's a part of Steve Rogers that could be us. Back to the Psychology Today article, it absolutely elevates us and inspires us. That's the value of stories.

I mean, one of the things you hear in adult learning a lot is, if you hear a speech, you might forget the points, but you remember the stories. Or in the Bible, with Jesus, His main points were all told through stories. Storytelling is a very valuable way to teach lessons to ourselves, to our kids, to our loved ones, our team members. It's a valuable way of teaching. It's inspiring. One of the best ways to really try to get better, as a human, is just identify with some of these figures, not so much to be literal superheroes, but just more of the character and how we deal with adversity. I think it's incredibly helpful to our souls and in our lives.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's an important point to make in a podcast called Beyond the Crucible. That comes from a life practice called Crucible Leadership, that it is to overcome. Part of the journey, part of the story, is overcoming those difficult moments, and getting up. Again, as we get into Captain America here in a bit, we'll see a lot of those beats in the Captain America story.

In fact, there's the fourth point in Psychology Today's article, and that is: Heroes show us how to transform our lives. "A comparative mythologist, named Joseph Campbell..." I never knew there were comparative mythologists. I wonder if there are other kinds of mythologists, but he's a comparative mythologist. "He said, in 1988, that all of us undergo a hero-like journey throughout our ordinary human lifespans." You sort of alluded to that when you were talking just a little while ago.

"'During our lives,' he wrote, 'we undergo a truly heroic transformation of consciousness. Only when we heroically risk change and growth in our own lives will we reach our full potential.' As spiritual teacher, Richard Rohr notes, 'Hero stories inspire us all because they call us all.'" Love that.

"Hero stories inspire us all because they call us all." I mean it's not... It's really impossible to watch a hero story, be it superhero, action hero, sports hero, real-life documentary hero somewhere, it's really hard to watch a film like that and not feel inspired and called to the same level of excellence, the same level of soul, of character, that these mythical sometimes, real sometimes, heroes display, isn't it? It's almost an impossibility not to be not just elevated, but to be drawn into following that path.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean, as you're talking about heroic figures, I think of Luke Skywalker in the first Star Wars film in, what is it, 1977, or somewhere there abouts? I'd say, more screenplay analyses and heroic analyses have been done on that movie than any other. It's a template of how to give a speech, how to write a screenplay, without getting into it all. Luke Skywalker starting as a simple young boy, young man, in this far off planet. His family gets killed, and he ends up part of the Rebel Alliance, becoming a heroic figure.

Well, he had to go through crucibles and journey and growth. That would be a whole other discussion, but yeah, I think heroic figures typically go through an arc of learning, of dealing with crucibles, overcoming them. In a sense, these heroic movies that we're going to be talking about are almost an archetype of what does it mean to be a crucible leader? We talk on the podcast and in the book all the time about learning the lessons of your crucible, living in light of your design, finding a vision that maybe came out of the ashes of your crucible, focus on others, living a life of significance. That's what the figures in these movies do. They live the crucible arc, the refining cycle, as we call it. It's a great way of learning how to not let your worst day define you, and how to move on to a more fulfilling life.




Gary Schneeberger:

Here, listener, is proof that this idea is breathed outside of me and Warwick, because I have not shared with him what I'm reading out of Psychology Today, and he just led perfectly, he just set the plate perfectly for the fifth point in the article. That is: Heroes turn us in to heroes ourselves.

"Good heroes," they write, "use the power of transformation, not only to change themselves for the better, but also to transform the world. In the classic hero journey, the newly transformed hero eventually transforms society in significant and positive ways. Psychologist Erik Erikson's Stages of Human Development suggests a similar hero trajectory for all of us. Adults grow in significant ways, and then in midlife reach a stage of generativity, which Erikson defines as the time when people give back to the society that has given them so much."

We haven't written it that way, as that's what a life of significance is, but that's what they're describing there, right? They're describing a life of significance. It makes you feel significant, and it passes value onto the culture.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I think there was a generation of historians that talked about the great man theory of history. Obviously, we would say the great person, the great man, the great woman theory of history. That was the idea that individuals can transform society. That's maybe not as fashionable today, because we live in a more cynical age and, yes, our heroes typically are not perfect. They have their flaws, but as we've discussed before, in fact just on the last podcast, we talked about Winston Churchill and his whole never give up. He was one man-




Gary Schneeberger:

Your never is actually never, never, never, never... 




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly right.




Gary Schneeberger:

I memorized it for the show.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly right. Here he was in May 1940, new prime minister of Britain, when it felt like Britain against Nazi Germany, against the world at the time. America would come into the war later, in late 1941, but Britain could be forgiven if they were obviously fearful, feeling like, gosh, we're one little island. How will we protect ourselves against the might of Nazi Germany, but in one sense, through the power of his example and the power of his rhetoric, Winston Churchill, with this idea of we will never give up. We will fight them on the beaches, in the villages, in the towns. No matter how long it takes, we and our commonwealth, which includes Australia and Canada, we will fight on.

One man, one woman can make a massive difference. Now, we're not all going to be Winston Churchills, but even if it means in our town, in our village, in our neighborhood, in our company, in our division, wherever it is, and in our families, we can have a massive impact, far more than we would think. Never underestimate the ability to live a heroic lifestyle. It's a bit of a stretch, maybe, for most of us, but let's understand it as a heroic life in terms of character and service, in modeling what we believe. That kind of heroic life is attainable by all of us. It's just a matter of living what we believe. It has a massive impact, far more than we would realize.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's a great bridge to the first hero that we're going to talk about, because that's one of the characteristics, one of the things that makes Captain America a hero. As we teased at the top of the show, our first hero that we're going to unpack is going to be Captain America. We're just about ready to launch into that. I think I'm ready to begin that discussion, Warwick. I think I'm ready to dive in. I think I'm ready to go. I've got the... There's the Captain America T-shirt. I've got the Captain America hat. I'm so excited, I forgot to put my glasses back on, but I guess that's... You know what? When you're talking about heroes, sometimes the alter-ego wears glasses, sometimes the hero doesn't. That's not Captain America's story, but that is the story of a few of them, and there's my Captain America shield, if you're... We're all ready to go. Talk about Captain America.

I can actually still read my notes without my glasses on, so I'm just going to let them go. I'm just going to let it go just like this. We're going to fly just like this and see what happens.

Where we're going to start, Warwick, is with the movie Captain America: The First Avenger, which is where the movie versions of Captain America all began. That was in phase one of what they call the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It was a story of a young man, Steve Rogers, in World War II. He really, really, really wanted to be a soldier. He wanted to fight.

The problem for Steve Rogers was that he was slight and he was sickly. His crucible, when we meet him, is that this kid from Brooklyn, who wants to get into World War II, can't join the Army, because they keep rejecting him. So intense is his desire to serve, in fact, that he travels to several recruiting stations in the preamble, the pre-story, the backstory, of Captain America: The First Avenger, hoping to find one recruitment center that's going to give him the chance, but the odds are high.

Here's how high the odds are. This is fascinating to me. I didn't realize this until I began doing some of the research for our conversation today, but in one scene in the movie, where he's in one of those recruitment centers, when his paperwork is stamped 4-F, which means he's rejected, the audience gets a fleeting glimpse on screen of his physical history, including his ailments. It's flashed too quickly by to really understand what it says in its entirety, but here's the fun part.

When Marvel wrapped up the first phase of its Cinematic Universe, it issued a boxed set of all the DVDs. In that boxed set, they had dossiers of all the characters who were in The Avengers. Included in that, right here you can see, there's their top secret, inactive, classified file, but in that, they take that very piece of paper that shows up in Captain America: The First Avenger, can't really see it there well, because of the sun, but here's the ailments that are listed on that sheet that flew by too quickly for movie goers to understand.

Here are the odds. Here's the crucible that Steve Rogers faces as he wants to go join the war effort and do his part for his country. Summary of patient health issues: asthma, scarlet fever, rheumatic fever, sinusitis, high blood pressure, palpitations or pounding in heart. I'm going to run out breath saying this. Easy fatigability, heart trouble, nervous trouble of any sort, has had household contact with a tuberculosis patient, and he has a parent/sibling with diabetes, cancer, stroke, or heart disease. He is also only 5'7" and 110 pounds. Makes it pretty clear why Steve Rogers is having trouble getting into the Army, doesn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

That guy's a mess. I mean, you know how it's like slight of stature. I mean, 110 pounds. I mean, wow. Rheumatic fever, tuberculosis. I mean, it's just... He is the antithesis of a heroic figure. That kid's not, I mean, you would think, poor kid. He's not going to be able to do anything. I mean, if there's a breath of wind, you'd think he'd fall over.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, he's just sickly. Can you imagine being in the heat of battle and having a nervous disposition? Do you want that guy to have your back? I mean, probably not. Maybe he'll suffer a heart attack or something. Yeah, he is the antithesis of what a hero would be, which makes his story even more remarkable, really.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yet, in the very next scene, in the very next scene, after he's been rejected several times, the first glimpse of what indeed makes him a hero comes up. He's in the movie theater. After one of his rejections, he goes to see a movie. At that time, at the movies, they ran newsreels beforehand, and because it was World War II, they were reporting back. Remember, there's no TV at this time that's hour by hour, no CNN telling you what's going on in the theater of war. You've got to watch these newsreels. 

He wants to see what's going on, but there's some guys in front of him in the theater, who are mouthing off, and they're talking to the newsreel. Steve Rogers, slight, sickly Steve Rogers gets a little upset about that. He wants to hear what's going on. He wants to serve his country, and he wants to know what's going on in the theater of war.

What ends up happening, he gets into a fight with one of the bigger guys in front of him. Later, the guy goes outside and beats him up in an alley. He just pounds him. He keeps punching him, and Steve keeps falling down and getting knocked down. Eventually, the guy who's beating him up takes a little sympathy on him, and he says, "You just don't know when to quit, do you?" And Steve's response would end up coursing throughout all of the films in which Captain America appears. That's this first one, Captain America: The First Avenger. That's the second one, Captain America: The Winter Soldier. That's the third one, Captain America: The Civil War, as well as all four Avengers movies.

This is the attitude of Steve Rogers, of Captain America, as it plays out through those movies. Here's what he says to that bully, as that bully beats him up. "I could do this all day." He says it many more times, throughout those other movies, as I said.

Warwick, when I heard that, in screening this movie for this purpose, it occurs to me, that could be the motto of moving beyond your crucible, couldn't it? Recognizing that life knocks you down, but it has lessons to teach you, and you'll learn them if you adopt the attitude of, "Okay, I could do this all day, if that's the way it turns out." Is that fair, to sort of summarize the way crucible leadership works?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Really, to get over your crucible, you have to have that attitude of perseverance, that I could do it over.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. It really is a good perspective to think about when you face crucibles. Can you be someone who looks at crucibles... We say, they didn't happen to you; they happened for you. One way of expressing that in a different manner is to say, "I could do this all day. I know what's on the other side of persevering through my crucible, so I'm going to press in and I'm going to do that." 

Steve Rogers life changes when he meets one Dr. Erskine, who's a former German scientist, who's working on developing a super soldier formula for the U.S. government agency, The Strategic Scientific Reserve. He selects Steve over more physically capable and militarily experienced candidates, because as we heard in the clip that started the show, Steve is a weak man. Physically, he is a weak man. 

Here's the important point there, though. Erskine believes, because of that, he will value strength, and he will do it with compassion. That, in Erskine's mind, is what makes a super soldier. That's a pretty, again, life applicable lesson that, going back to the Psychology Today article, that we should all aspire to, that in our hearts we all want to aspire to. It's not who we can beat up. It's who we can comfort. It's who we can show compassion to. It's who we can love. That's the nature of "heroism" as defined by Captain America and, I think, in our own hearts.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean, those early scenes are particularly helpful in this movie, when you just see this young, slight of build, doesn't seem like a heroic figure, but what Dr. Erskine sees in Steve Rogers is maybe not heroic physical stature, but heroic character. He's somebody that will stand up, as we'll see, to bullies. He's somebody that, because he doesn't have natural strength, he values compassion. He values character. He values doing the right thing.

Later on, we'll see, I think Dr. Erskine says, "Steve, don't change. Don't change in your character. Keep who you are," when he'll get the serum.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

One of the things he says in that clip that I think is really... It's very thought provoking when he says to Steve, "The serum amplifies everything. It makes a bad man, a bad person better; a good man, a good person better." Steve already had character. Did it make him even of greater character? I don't know, maybe. I guess that would be Dr. Erskine's premise, but I think what that says is sometimes you could say strength is found in our weakness. I know, for me, given what I've gone through, losing a $2.25 billion, 150-year-old family media company in Australia, I think it... I'd like to think it gives you a level of compassion, a level of empathy for others. 

Sometimes out of weakness, physical weakness or whatever, there can be great strength that comes out of that. See, Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers because of the strength of his character. That was a profoundly wise choice that a lot of other people wouldn't have done.




Gary Schneeberger:

No. In fact, the colonel, played by Tommy Lee Jones, is having none of it in the beginning, right? He... "You bring a 90-pound asthmatic into my barracks?" I mean, he's very gruff. He's perfect Tommy Lee Jones there, but he doesn't see it, because he doesn't spend any time, he doesn't get to spend any time with Steve Rogers, aside from what's happening on the training field. He sees a bunch of people who are stronger. That's what he, as a military man, has been taught to believe is what wins wars, physical strength.

Erskine in the doctor who, while he was in Germany, ended up having to give the serum, before it was ready to go, to a very physically strong man, but a bad man, Johann Schmidt, who ends up being the villain Red Skull in the movie. He's seen what happens when strong, morally questionable people get that serum. He doesn't want to see that happen again.

One of the key things, before Steve Rogers receives the serum and becomes the physical embodiment of Captain America, the last thing that Erskine asks him is, "Do you want to kill Nazis?" He wants to get at Steve's motivation. Okay, he wants to go join the war effort, because he's been to five or six different places to fill out a form, been rejected each time. That's against the law. He doesn't seem to care, because he wants to fight so badly, but Erskine says, "Do you want to kill Nazis?" 

Steve's response, again, gets to the character of Steve Rogers and then Captain America, because he never loses that character. Steve's response is, "I don't want to kill anybody. I just don't like bullies." He sees Hitler as a bully. He sees the Nazis as bullies, and he wants to stop those bullies in the same way that he wanted to stop that guy who was talking over the film reels in the movie theater. That's the essence of Steve Rogers, and that becomes the essence of Captain America.

Steve is given the serum. He gets the serum, and that gives him strength, speed, and the ability to take and throw a punch. They're exponentially greater than they were before. He captures a Nazi who has infiltrated the experiment and shot Erskine to death. He winds up in the papers as a hero. 

Here, then, comes Steve Rogers second big crucible of the film, and his first big crucible as Captain America. The U.S. Government doesn't send him to the front to fight the war. The U.S. Government, and this kind of hurts me that this is played for a joke in the film, the U.S. Government sends him on a PR campaign. Being a PR guy, by profession, I'm like, oh, that's terrible. The PR is like the evil assignment in the movie, but for our purposes, why it's a crucible is he's not... Steve Rogers realizes he's not using all the gifts he's been given, right? 

We talk about gifts you've been given, a lot, not usually in this context. They've been injected into you through science, but he's still been given gifts, and he feels like he's not using them. He's longing for what we've called, in a previous series, second act significance, right? That's where he finds himself, as he's on this PR tour selling war bonds.




Warwick Fairfax:

You know, what's fascinating about this is both the Army's maybe misuse of him, arguably, or the... I mean, the Army has an attitude of, look, here's this larger than life figure. We need money to fuel this war, and one of the main ways they did that was selling war bonds to people, so he was serving a good purpose, which is raising money for the war, but he could've said, "Look," maybe he didn't want to kill Nazis, but, "I want to protect America. I could do a lot more at the front." Maybe he grumbles a little bit, but basically he's like, look, if this is where I'm needed in the war effort, and if this can help raise millions of dollars for the war, I'm not going to overly complain." 

Like a good soldier, he went ahead and did it, which I think is remarkable in terms of humility. He didn't say, "I'm not doing that. I'm Captain America. How dare you?" No.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

He's like, okay, I may not like it. I understand why they're putting me there. Raising millions of dollars for the war effort is not bad. I get it. War bonds is a big deal, selling them. But yeah, it definitely wasn't using his gifts, wasn't maybe the best place to put him, but in his humility, he went on with it, put on a good show, and did his best to make the best of a bad position, another important lesson.

All of us in life are going to face times in which we're not in the best place for our gifting, but we do our best anyway. Sometimes you don't have a choice in the short run. That showed remarkable character, the way he approached it.




Gary Schneeberger:

You're right. At first, he kind of embraces that role. He's symbolic. You're right. The war bonds are going up. They're raising a lot more money with him, but yet, deep down inside, when he was going to all those places and wanting to sign up for the war, he wasn't thinking of being a PR guy. He was thinking of being a soldier. He doesn't want to raise money; he wants to raise Cain, right? He wants to take it to the enemy, and he gets a little picture when his playing field shifts from all those war bond rallies to the front. 

He goes to the front, and he meets, when he does his shtick with the chorus girls singing the star-spangled man song, and all the dances, and the fake Hitler he knocks out, but he does it in front of soldiers who are on the front lines, and they boo him. They mock him. They say, "Bring the girls back." 

One of the interesting things about, of all the projectiles that Captain America knocks away with this thing right here, with his shield. Of all the projectiles he knocks away with his shield, the first ones are fruit thrown at him by servicemen, who think he's shirking his duty, because they don't know the whole story. That weighs on him.

The next scene that we see him in, Warwick, is when he is visited by Captain Peggy Carter, who's a British agent, who's working with the Strategic Scientific Reserve. They've kind of taken a shine to one another in a very sweet way, and she says something to him. Listener, I'm going to ask you the same thing I'm going to ask Warwick. Does this sound familiar, what she tells Steve Rogers/Captain America, who's selling war bonds, but not fighting? "You were meant for more than this," she says to him. Pretty familiar subject around these parts, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

It sure is, Gary. I mean, as listeners would know, we just finished an amazing series on Second Act Significance. I'd say, pretty much every guest we had reached that moment of you were meant for more than this, whether it was Robert Miller being a pretty successful lawyer in New York for decades, and it's like, is this all there is? Is this all there is? He had a love of music, and now has a very successful band, Project Grand Slam, doing a mix of Latin/jazz fusion. Every guest we had, had a is this all there is moment.

As we heard last week, I had what I called a cubicle moment, an is this all there is moment, when I was in the mid '90s to early 2000s. I was working in an aviation services company in Maryland doing business marketing analysis, and I was getting good performance reviews, but it's like, I felt like I was, as a person of faith, dishonoring God in the sense that I wasn't using all the gifts that I've been given, so I ended up quitting, got into executive coaching, and from there, through a variety of ways, ended up writing my book, and now Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible.

Many of us have had this is this all there is moment. Am I using all my gifts for a higher purpose? Have I defined it in a way that's helping others? This was really, maybe it wasn't a cubicle moment. Obviously, he was out there getting thrown fruit by servicemen, which had to have... Here he was trying to help America.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's got to be absolutely soul crushing, to be mocked by the people on the front lines. I can't think of a worse psychological crucible. I mean, it would've been devastating. Is this what I was given the serum for, to get thrown fruit at and mocked by soldiers, my fellow soldiers? Is this all there is? Surely, there must be a higher purpose. It's a classic moment. It definitely is.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yep, and he finds that higher moment, courtesy of Peggy Carter who, at the camp there on the front lines, or kind of behind the front lines quite a bit. He discovers that a lot of American and British allied servicemen have been taken prisoner by the Nazis, who are winning the war. At this point, they're kind of cleaning up a little bit, because Johann Schmidt, the Red Skull has hijacked... If you're a fan of Marvel, you'll know what the Tesseract is. If you're not a fan of Marvel, let's just say it's sort of cosmic energy. He's been able to leverage this cosmic energy to create weapons that give the Nazis the upper hand.

They've captured all these POWs. He hears about it. The colonel doesn't want to send anybody there, because it's so far behind enemy lines, but Steve Rogers hears that one of those POWs could be his friend, Bucky Barnes, his boyhood chum, who is/was everything that Steve wanted to be, strong and capable and accepted immediately into the military, and women loved him. That's all the things that Steve sort of aspired to be in his heart of hearts.

He thinks that Bucky, even though some say he's dead, he thinks Bucky might be one of those POWs, so he goes, unauthorized, unordered. He goes behind enemy lines himself, and he liberates the camp where these POWs are being held. He gets with him along the way, this wonderful motley crew of British and American soldiers, who kind of go on to become Captain America's Howling Commandos, and some other things that happen in the film and certainly in the comic book universe.

What I thought was so great about that scene, Warwick, is when it ends, when he comes back the hero, the first thing he does... Everybody's applauding him. Crowds are parting, because he's coming back with all these POWs, but the first thing that Steve Rogers/Captain America does is walk up to the colonel, played by Tommy Lee Jones, and say, "I'm here to turn myself in for disciplinary action," because he recognizes, he absolutely knows he left without authorization. That's his character on display. It's another key building block, that character in moving beyond a crucible to lead a life of significance that we talk about all the time. There's something else that happens in that moment, Warwick, when Peggy Carter is talking to the colonel, that also speaks to a key component of what it takes to get beyond your crucible. Talk about that a bit.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a classic scene in that you would think a normal hero comes back and says to the colonel, "Hey, you had no faith in me. Well, take that." 




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

"Look at all these people cheering me. They may have thrown fruit at me before. Well, now, they're cheering me. I'm the big hero. You're an idiot. You made a mistake, so you'd better have a good assignment for me. Otherwise, Colonel, I'm going to talk to the general, or the head of the war office or, hey, maybe even President Roosevelt. If you're too stupid to listen, people are going to listen to me now." That would've been an approach, an arrogant, hey, I'm the hero, but that's not at all what Steve Rogers did.

He knew that he had gone against his orders. It's like, okay, I did what I did to help people, but I recognize that what I did was against orders. I'm ready for discipline. He was just humble, submitted to authority in the best sense of that word. If he was about glory, his response would have been totally different. It shows everything about his character, and-




Gary Schneeberger:

And it shows everything about how wise Dr. Erskine was in not picking one of those guys that was killing all of the tests, that was killing all the tests on the training field, because that's the kind of thing one of those guys would've said if they came back, and that's not who Steve Rogers is.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. They would've said, "Hey, look at me. I am the champion. Cue the Queen rock group music, We Are the Champions." 




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, that would be kind of what you'd be hearing, but while the colonel may not have really judged correctly, Agent Peggy Carter, the British agent working with the group did, because when the colonel asked Agent Peggy Carter, "Well, why did you allow Steve to go on this mission," and she says, "I had faith." She believed in him. She saw what Dr. Erskine saw in Steve Rogers, a man, a person of high character, of selflessness, who's always about the cause and about his fellow soldiers, not about his own glory.

She had faith in who he was, as a person. She saw those really aspects of greatness, greatness of character, in him that Dr. Erskine did. Yeah, it's a wonderful line, "I had faith." She knew who he was, and she knew what he could do.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. That's one of the things that you talk about in your book and we talk about on the show quite a bit is the importance of faith. The importance of believing that this isn't the end, and whether that comes from us or that comes from others. Other people having faith in us is also a great driver. I mean that is, again, listener, I stress that's one of the reasons why we're talking about these films and these heroes, because they touch on the beats that we've been talking to you about now for more than 120 episodes of this show. That's one of the things that, I think, makes this such a robust, fun discussion.




Warwick Fairfax:

Just before we leave that point, and what you're saying is so true, I think one of the points I want listeners to really consider is you can surround yourself with naysayers, who will say, "You know what? You're a screw-up. You've failed. You've hurt people. You deserve, maybe not to be in prison, but to be in a virtual prison. You deserve to be treated like lepers in the Bible, to be shun, not seen. You're unforgivable, irredeemable. You're a hopeless waste of space." 

Now, that's an approach. You can just surround yourself with those people if you want to, and it doesn't mean you don't have to return to the things you've done and make it right, but you want to surround yourself with people, who say, "You know what? I get it. You've made mistakes. Maybe you've made choices that weren't as good as others, but I believe in you. I believe that I would say greatness in you, but greatness in the sense of character, the ability to achieve dreams that maybe others may not see. I believe in who you are and your capacity and what you can do." Surrounding yourself with people who elevate you and appeal to your better angels is a massively important part of achieving your dream to a life of significance.

Surround yourself with people who will say, "You know what? I believe you can do it. I believe you are better and more capable than you ever realize." Those are the kind of people that we want to have in our corner.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, and Steve Rogers/Captain America proves capable. He brings down the villain of the peace, the Red Skull. He defeats him, and he does it in a way that, again, stays so true to his character, in the sense that he doesn't... He says to Dr. Erskine back in the beginning when he's asked, "Do you want to kill Nazis?" "No, I don't want to kill Nazis. I just don't like bullies." He doesn't kill.

So many times, heroes in action films, in particular, will take out the bad guy. I'm working on a book right now about the James Bond films, and James Bond pretty much offs every bad guy his path crosses. That's not the way that heroes tend to operate, superheroes tend to operate. They don't kill. Captain America says, "I don't want to kill anybody. I want to simply stop bullies." 

What ends up killing the Red Skull is his own megalomania. He's so fascinated and obsessed with this Tesseract, this other worldly source of power, that he grabs it, and it blows up on him, and he dies. That then... It happens on his plane, and that leaves Steve Rogers on the plane, Captain America on the plane, and he's got a choice to make. That choice is... There's a bomb. That plane is set to drop a bomb on New York, so he can live and let that happen, or he can take that plane, and he can crash it in the ocean to save other people's lives.

By this time, listener, I think you know, even if you haven't seen the movie, what Captain America is going to do. Unlike the Red Skull, who can't control the power he wields, Steve Rogers could control the power within him. That leads him to make the ultimate sacrifice in the end, fly the plane with the bomb into the ocean, and there he is presumed dead. 

Again, Warwick, that really makes... I mean, the smartest guy in this movie to me is Dr. Erskine, because he gets it with just a few conversations of hearing a few things that Steve Rogers said. This is the kind of man, after putting that serum in Johann Schmidt's arm and what that made bad worse, he saw this physically weak man, who was good in his heart, and he could make that good better, and that's what he did to the end, or to what seemed like the end, when Steve Rogers dropped that plane in the water, even though he had fallen in love with Peggy Carter, she with him, and that ended that, he thought, but there's more to come, as there always is in superhero movies, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. It's a great point. He was always about the greater good. It's not about me. Obviously, with everything that was on that plane, yeah, he could have annihilated New York and probably part of the Eastern Seaboard of the U.S., but he was willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good of his country and the men and women that live here.

He was the true hero, in that it's not about me. It's about a higher purpose. I'm just doing my best to help those around me.

There's an interesting moment in one of the later scenes of the movie, when Steve Rogers is struggling with Johann Schmidt, the Red Skull, the head of HYDRA, on the plane. Well, actually, I think it was earlier, come to think of it, in the Alps space, but it's sort of part of this end of the movie.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

Johann Schmidt, the head of HYDRA asks Steve Rogers, "Well, what makes you so special?" In other words, Dr. Erskine had been forced to inject Johann Schmidt with the serum, or basically Johann Schmidt took matters into his own hands, but he's thinking, why in the world would Dr. Erskine choose you? Here I am, Mr. Super-Nazi, Aryan super race, Johann Schmidt. Why you? What's so special about you? 

Steve Rogers said, in answer to that question, "What's so special about you?" He says, "Nothing. I'm just a kid from Brooklyn." 




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. 




Warwick Fairfax:

It's like he doesn't think of himself as special. Now, the honest answer, which he's too humble to say is, "Well, Dr. Erskine saw the purity of my character," but he's too humble to see that. It just completely nonplussed Johann Schmidt. It's like, "Say what?" It's like, "I'm up against this person, who's potentially going to beat me, and he's nothing special?" I mean that's how humiliated to be beaten by nothing special, if you will. He just, he couldn't process it, but that just shows you his humility and his willingness to just sacrifice himself for the greater good, and not big-note himself.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the things that I got, as we were preparing this series, is this book called Hollywood Heroes. The subtitle is How Your Favorite Movies Reveal God. It's not all just a spiritual, a Christian tract, if you will. There are some other great insights. One of the great insights it has about Steve Rogers/Captain America and the hero journey he goes on, that's different from a lot of the hero journeys that we'll be talking about, and that we're familiar with in the culture...

The book says this, "Unlike most superheroes, and despite being around almost 80 years in comic books," because Captain America did indeed date back to the '40s in comic books, "Captain America is unique in the sense that, as a character, he is static. He undergoes almost no moral change over the course of his story arc. Rather than a moral journey, we are instead treated to the story of his dedication, bravery, and commitment to his principles, often in the face of overwhelming odds."

That's his story arc. His story arc is going from physically weak to physically strong, but not changing internally, fortitudinally strong, and that is both rare, in many cases, and I think something we all can and should aspire to, especially as we encounter crucibles, because Captain America does not let his crucible define or stop him. Along the way, he becomes... Right? As the movies play out, he becomes the true crucible leader, in our language, of The Avengers, because they all recognize that he may not be the most powerful one. The Hulk is more powerful. Iron Man's smarter, but Captain America becomes the leader because of his innate qualities.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's so true, that point you're making, Gary, from the Hollywood Heroes book. In very many cases, in real life, people may start out with a reasonable degree of character, but whether it's Hollywood or success in sports or in business, the more normal arc is they get carried away with the fame. They get surrounded by people who are hangers on and say, "Man, you're amazing. You're brilliant. You're fantastic," and they said, "Yeah, I pretty much am, aren't I?" And the character erodes with the fame and the money and the power, whether it's in politics or Hollywood or wherever. 

It's rare that politicians or people in movies or wherever are seen as incorruptible. We talk a lot in Crucible Leadership about Lincoln, who may be termed sort of the incorruptible man. His character, if anything, it was strengthened, but it wasn't changed. He was the same person before he became into office, or even the latter stages when he was greatly respected. It didn't change him, but that's rare. Somebody like Steve Rogers, with all the accolades and his physical strength and the admiration, most people would start saying, "I'm pretty hot stuff, aren't I? I'm pretty amazing."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

The fact that he wasn't flies in the face of the more normal example in the culture that we live in, so that's something to be understood and modeled. Don't let success, whether it's in your neighborhood, high school, business... The size is irrelevant. Wherever you live, you could be pretty hot stuff, even if it's like a junior on a high school basketball team somewhere.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

Don't let the accolades destroy your character. Remember, be the same person in the sense of the good part of you, after you have succeeded. Steve Rogers is just an incredible example of that, which is, unfortunately, ultra-rare in our society today. Most people are corrupted by success, unfortunately.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yep, yep. There's a great scene at the end when it's VE day, Victory over Europe day, in the war, and there's a scene that shows these young kids playing in the street. They're all exultant because America's one the war, and they show this young boy. He's got a metal garbage can lid in his hand, and he's painted it up like Captain America's shield. He's painted up that garbage can lid like Captain America's shield, and he's playing Captain America with his friends.

We talk all the time here at Beyond the Crucible about the importance of leaving a legacy, something that you can be proud of, something that those who inherit that legacy can be proud of. Many times, that's your family. Here, what Captain America's done is left a legacy that his country can be proud of, that the next generation of his country can be proud of, and that is an absolutely key outcome, is it not, that we often discuss as the fruit of living a life of significance?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean, at the time, as the war ends in Europe, Victory in Europe, somewhere around May 1945, give or take, everybody assumes that Captain America is dead. Now, maybe he's not, but nobody knows that at the time, and so whether it's his friends, like the colonel, Peggy Carter, Bucky Barnes, I mean, just people that really love him and respect and admire him, they think of him as somebody that's left a legacy of giving his all to his country, to the Allies, at least in the movie, of helping to defeat Nazi Germany, and living a life of character. 

It was never about him, but was standing up to bullies. It's a life of service. It was a life of humility. That's exactly the kind of thing that you want young people emulating and respecting. That's the legacy, as of the 1940s, that he had left. I mean, maybe we won't all be Captain America, obviously, but whatever level and whatever area, wouldn't you want that to be your legacy? That you're a man or woman that are respected for your character, how you lived your life, a life of service caring for others. Isn't that how we all want to be seen and respected after we've gone? I mean, to me, the answer is absolutely.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, and as we've said, as you've hinted again there, Captain America does not die. He crashes the plane in the water, and as is wonderful about the comic book world, you can have kind of miraculous things happen. He's frozen in suspended animation in the plane that he crashes in, and the U.S. Government pulls him out in the 2010s, and he hasn't aged. He's alive.

What's interesting about that is he emerges as a man out of his own time, but still rooted in his timeless principles. We see that in Captain America in all the films that follow, the two sequels to his movie, and then the four Avengers films. He spends... His belief, his faith in Bucky Barnes, his pal, exists, even though Bucky had been captured by the Nazis, had been programmed to become an assassin for HYDRA, had done some terrible things. The U.S. Government wanted to wipe him out, and Captain America, again, having faith and belief in his friend, wouldn't go along with that, defied some of his orders, because he believed in his friend. He was a loyal friend, who could see in the heart of the man who had been reprogrammed by the bad guys.

That, in the end, as you pointed out, as we were talking about this beforehand, that faith ends up being well-founded, doesn't it, in Bucky Barnes? He's not the Winter Soldier. Even though he's been programmed to be the Winter Soldier assassin for HYDRA, at the end of The Avengers movie arc, he's somebody. He's back to being Bucky Barnes, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. You know, as you said, Bucky Barnes was brainwashed by the Nazis and HYDRA, but Steve Rogers wouldn't give up on his friend. He felt like somewhere in there, beneath the programming, there was the good Bucky Barnes, his buddy growing up. He fought for that and eventually was able to redeem him, which is amazing.

In those latter movies, beginning with the movie that came after the first Captain America, well, I guess, at the end of that movie, come to think of it, he goes through another crucible. It's like, gosh, I've lost everybody I know. It's now 2010s.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

At that point, he doesn't have a clue where his beloved Peggy Carter is, and obvious, eventually, that will be revealed, but at the time he didn't know. Everybody that he'd known is probably dead or close to it, but it's like, okay. That's got to be a devastating crucible, to lose 70 years of your life, whatever it was at the time, but it's like, okay, this is pretty awful, but here I am. How can I serve my country? How can I serve the planet? What's the next mission? It's never about him. It's always about leaving a legacy, even when he loses many decades of his life, and for all he knows, at the time, his beloved Peggy Carter.

It was always about a life of service. It was never about him. Whatever crucible came, even a crucible of time, as you say, he was moored in his principles, and he always wanted to serve his country and serve the world. That was always, always him, and this is in a, how can I put this, character of humility. It's just incredible.




Gary Schneeberger:

I love that you mentioned his beloved Peggy Carter, because she does show up in some of the sequels. She's much older, obviously, because she's lived through the passage of time. She's aged, where he hasn't, and he visits her in the hospital in one movie, where she's ill, but he never loses that torch he has for her.

In the final Avengers movie, Avengers: Endgame, which involved some time travel, all the different Avengers have to go back in different places of time to retrieve these time stones, like the Tesseract that the villain Thanos has used to wipe out half of mankind. They have to go back and get them, so they can defeat Thanos. 

Captain America goes back, and he gets one of the stones. They get all the stones regathered, and Iron Man saves the day, loses his life in the process. That's not a spoiler. The movie's been out for a couple years, but at the end of the day, when that's done, earth has been saved, each of the Avengers has a role to play, to go back to the time where the time stone they have came from, to go put it back in place.

Captain America volunteers to go put the stone that he had back in place. There's a scene at the end of that movie, where the other Avengers are waiting for him to come back through the portal. It should only take seconds, what looks like it takes years. What takes years on the inside of the time travel, on the outside takes seconds.

They're waiting for him, and he doesn't come back, and they don't know why he doesn't come back. The audience finds out first why he doesn't come back. There's a scene that's cut to a house. The camera goes through a window, and there, inside the house, is Steve Rogers dancing with a young Peggy Carter. That dance that they talked about in the first Captain America movie that we've been talking about, that first dance that they never got to take, that she weepingly says, "I'll take a..." He says he'll take a rain check, and she says, "Yes, I'll meet you next week," and she knows it's not going to happen.

Captain America chose, rather than come back and continue to serve, he felt like he'd lived his life of significance. He'd given all he could to his country and to the world, and now it was his time to enjoy a different slice of a life of significance, and that was life with Peggy Carter, so he stayed in the 1940s. He married Peggy Carter, and that was the way that he lived out his life, because of what time travel allowed.

It was a very beautiful ending to this story, and it speaks to what we've been talking about. He felt called to serve. He lived a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, and now that act of significance, that life of significance, now included love, marriage, and that which he had denied himself so long while pursuing his heroic calling. It was really a beautiful way to end the story arc of Captain America, I thought.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. It was never about being in the limelight. It was never about, hey, I'm part of S.H.I.E.L.D., and I'm part of all these incredible things that are going on in the present day, and hey, let's just keep on with the mission, and oh well. It's like, well, I've served my country. I've served the planet, and he just felt like the season is changing, and maybe... We don't really know what happened in the alternate universe, when he goes back to the '40s and what happened from the '40s on. That movie hasn't been made after Avengers: Endgame, but let's assume he lived a more quiet life. We don't know, but it's possible. Maybe it's teased a bit there.

It wasn't about the size of the impact. It was about, where am I called to now, and to have the opportunity to be around the love of your life, maybe have kids and a family. It was just never about the size of the impact. It was just try to be of value wherever that was, be it of big note or of small note. It was never about him. It was just try to serve a greater purpose and be a good friend, whether it be to... and husband to Peggy Carter, or a good friend to Bucky Barnes. It was always about just sticking to who he was before he had the serum. Really, it's a great end of the arc of his story.




Gary Schneeberger:

Absolutely, and we go back to what we started talking about early on, his view, carried throughout the movies, that I could do this all day. It's really... I didn't think about this until right now, as you were describing life with Peggy Carter. He's able to find, being with Peggy is something else he could do all day, and he gets the chance to do that, live many years with her, when he goes back to the '40s. That's just a beautiful wrap to his story and to the arc of how he dealt with crucibles and how he found a life of significance. It really is.

He's, I think, the perfect, the perfect hero for us to discuss, not just because yesterday, when listeners are hearing this, yesterday was the Fourth of July, Independence Day in America, right? It's not just because, just 24 hours ago, you saw fireworks and you had a cookout. It's because the story really does have application to how we can live lives of significance, and that, I think, makes it both entertaining, beautiful in its own superheroic way, and also quite meaningful.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean, well said. It's a great character, a great movie to launch this series with, a selfless life, whose focus is always on others, not liking bullies, defeating Johann Schmidt and HYDRA, being loyal to his friends, Peggy Carter and Bucky Barnes. I mean, he's just a great role model of... He's a bit like they talk about Lincoln. Lincoln's greatness was not so much in defeating the South in the Civil War. Historians have said Lincoln's greatness was in his character.

Well, I think in a similar way, actually, Steve Rogers' greatness, Captain America's greatness, wasn't so much in the achievements or his physical strength. Steve Rogers' greatness was in his character. In that sense, you could almost say he's an Abraham Lincoln archetype in some way.




Gary Schneeberger:

Very well said, and a very good place for us to... I don't want to say land the plane, given some of the arcs of our, the beats of our conversation here. It's a good place to throw the shield in and say, "We're done." 

There's one thing I want listeners to ponder, again in this book, Hollywood Heroes. They have reflection questions, like you do every time on your blog, Warwick. They have reflection questions for how you can think about the story of Captain America, and one of them really struck me as something that would be good for people to think about, and that's this: "Captain America is other focused. His moral compass compels him to help others. Who do you know who tends to be other focused, and what do they do that helps them maintain that focus?" 

Another question that's also very good about that, says this: "Can you think of someone in your life who makes you better, the way that Captain America made other people better? Have you told them?" This idea that... Who's other focused? Who's someone who inspires you in that way? What do they do that helps them maintain that focus? How might you learn from them? And then, is there somebody who makes you better, who does that for you? Have you told them, and if you haven't, what are you waiting for? Both great questions to ponder as we wrap here, aren't they?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Yep, it's... Thinking of your moral compass, make sure that you stay true to your fundamental beliefs. Don't let the world erode you. I mean, it's funny. I haven't mentioned this that often, but when I was a teenager, I had this thought in my mind. I never wanted to become world weary, because I had this sense that the world, left to its own devices, can erode your character, erode your optimism, faith in others, and I never wanted to be cynical. I would say, by the grace of God, I'm not cynical. I am realistic, but I'm not cynical. 

You want to stay true to your moral compass, and yeah, think of people that have made you better. Yeah, I'm a great believer in encouragement. If there's somebody that's a role model, maybe it's your mom, dad, teacher, maybe it's somebody at work, think of why you admire them, and absolutely, as Gary, as you just said, tell them. Thank them, and tell them why. I always believe, if you're going to give a thank you, be specific, you know?




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

You are, in a lot of ways, a hero or somebody I admire because you did A, B, and C, whether it was their kindness, their compassion, their integrity, whatever it is, absolutely. It will bless them and encourage them and maybe reinforce them to keep going, because even our heroes can sometimes have days when they're a little tired.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yep. Well, with that, we're going to declare that Red Skull is defeated, and so is Thanos, and we're going to move on. Here's how we're going to do this, listener. We're not going to give you the full rundown of everybody we're going to talk to. We know who the... I mean, talk to. Yes, we're going to talk to... Our interview with Captain America was just supposed to have... No, everyone that we're going to talk about, all of the stories we're going to explore, we're not going to lay those out in advance, except at the end of each episode.

I will tell you now that next week, Warwick and I will talk about Batman and the lessons we can learn about overcoming crucibles and leading a life of significance from Batman. The primary, and there's a lot of iterations of Batman, as you know. The primary iteration that we're going to talk about is the 1989 Michael Keaton movie, just called Batman. We'll bring in some of the other stuff, but the primary movie we're going to talk about is that movie with Michael Keaton from 1989.

If you want to be up on the conversation, as Warwick and I go through it, you've got the opportunity to take a look at that movie over the next week, and listen in to our conversation as we get there. Until the next time we are together and have that conversation, remember that we know that crucible experiences are difficult. We know that it takes heroic efforts to move beyond them. You have to must that ability, that desire, that integrity to do this all day sometimes, when you feel like you can't go on. You have to find a way to do this all day, because the reward is you can learn lessons from your crucible that will pay dividends down the road, and that road will lead you, as you learn those lessons and apply them to your life, to exactly the place that Steve Rogers/Captain America found himself, not only when he was saving the world but also when he was spending eternity, the rest of his life, with Peggy Carter, and that is to a life of significance.

Lying in a hospital bed, unable to do anything for her only son but watch him leave and wondering if it would be the last time she’d see him was the traumatic crucible Sarah Willoughby faced after she turned to in vitro fertilization (IVF) in a desperate attempt to have another child. Diagnosed with Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS) and secondary infertility after losing another baby, she was at the end of her physical and emotional rope. That’s when she decided to stop trying to force her dreams to come true – and instead live her life with as much gusto and gratitude as she could. That determination has led her to a life of significance she couldn’t imagine at the depth of her crucible. She’s a life coach who helps clients love and heal themselves and is the author of a just-released book, INFERTILITY SAVED MY LIFE. 

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the Founder of Crucible Leadership.




Sarah Willoughby:

One of the most defining moments was realizing that I may not recover and having to send my son back to the UK with his grandma. And he walked out of the hospital doors holding his rabbit, his well-loved rabbit, in one hand and his grandmother's hand in the other and just turned around and looked at me and smiled. And I smiled at him and I thought, "I hope I'm okay. I hope I get to raise you."




Gary Schneeberger:

It's hard to imagine a more heartbreaking crucible than that. Lying in a hospital bed unable to do anything for your only son but watch him leave and wondering if it would be the last time you'd ever see him. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Our guest this week, Sarah Willoughby, endured that unimaginably scary experience after turning to in vitro fertilization in a desperate attempt to have another child. Diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome and secondary infertility after losing another baby, she was at the end of her physical and emotional rope. That's when she decided she was going to stop trying to force her dreams to come true and instead live her life with as much gusto and gratitude as she could. That determination has led her to a life of significance she couldn't imagine at the depth of her crucible. She's a life coach who helps clients love and heal themselves and is the author of a just released book, Infertility Saved My Life. She describes just how that's been true in ways you won't believe in this conversation with me and Warwick.




Warwick Fairfax:

I first heard about you, just saw some posting on social media, saw that you've got a book coming out with Morgan James. I guess the eBook's coming out in June which will be when the podcast... And then printed later in the year. So my book was published late last year, October 2021, by Morgan James. So yeah, we have that in common which is fabulous. And just the title of your book, Infertility Saved My Life, I mean it's counterintuitive and there's a whole story there that we'll unpack. So I loved the title and the butterfly on the front and just on your website, when you talk about is this your opportunity to transform your life? You talk about this is the right place if you're ready to heal, love yourself, achieve more, transform your life. So I love just what you're about. And obviously, your story's anchored by your crucible with polycystic ovary syndrome, PCOS, which I must confess I had not heard of until reading about you.




Warwick Fairfax:

But before we get a bit into your story, tell us a bit about the backstory. You grew up I think you mentioned in England before coming to Australia a number of years ago. So what's a bit of the backstory that makes Sarah Willoughby who you are and some of the threads that I'm sure you've picked up later on?




Sarah Willoughby:

Absolutely. So yeah, I grew up in the UK and I lived that typical life. I went to school, I studied hard. I spent six years at university and I followed the corporate path. So this life that I had expected for myself and other people expected for me. So I worked my way up the corporate ladder and I got there and I wasn't happy. It wasn't filling me with joy. But I didn't know how to leave because I felt like it was already too late, which is really ironic because I was actually only still in my early twenties. But I felt like I put so much work into this life and I knew where I was going and then it didn't really make my heart sing.




Sarah Willoughby:

So at the same time, I was going... And I was really stressed. I just want to say working in the corporate world was very, very stressful and I didn't feel like I was being a good employee, a good wife and a good mother at the time. I just felt like I was in survival mode, not thriving for sure. And at the same time, I was just going on this journey to try and have a second child, and that's where it all started to fall apart.




Warwick Fairfax:

So talk about PCOS and there's probably some listeners, maybe a number who don't know what that is. It changed your life in a lot of bad ways, but it seems like incredibly, given your book's called Infertility Saved My Life, there was some good that came out of just horrendous tragedy. So talk a bit about life was swimming along, you had a corporate job, a young son, a husband, maybe life could've been better but it doesn't sound like it was terrible.




Sarah Willoughby:

No. And yeah, from the outside looking in, I had it at all. I had a beautiful lifestyle. I traveled. I had a good income. I was using my brain. I'd spent six years at university so that was important to me. But my desire to have another child was the thing that really was pushing me forward in life and was very challenging. So I found out in my early twenties that I had PCOS, it was actually a very late diagnosis. And because I'd had my son very easily, I didn't think that I was going to struggle to have a second child. It just didn't even enter my mind. It took me two years to conceive. And at that point, I then had what's called a missed miscarriage which is when you're still releasing all the pregnancy hormones, but your baby's actually died. So a lot of women find out at their scan, their 12 week scan, that their baby had died a number of weeks before. And you have no idea.




Sarah Willoughby:

So at that point, I had to decide whether to wait for a natural miscarriage or whether to have surgery to remove everything because the pregnancy can continue for weeks and weeks and weeks. So I opted for surgery and that was really, really hard, really hard. And a lot of women go through this. I actually ended up on ward where lots of young girls were having abortions, so effectively the same operation but for different reasons. And no judgment around that, we're all at different stages in our life. But that was very, very confronting. I felt like the universe had put a baby in the wrong body sort of thing. And I felt very numb when I woke up from that surgery and I was crying and one of the nurses said to me, "Do you want to speak to the hospital chaplain?" And even though I wasn't religious, I said, "Yes." And that was absolutely life changing for me because she was the first person that acknowledged that I lost a baby.




Sarah Willoughby:

And I think for a lot of women and men going through infertility, there isn't that acknowledgement that you have lost a child. It's like oh, it's just a group of cells or just get over it. So there isn't that compassion and understanding. And she put on a proper funeral service for my family, so me and my ex-husband and my son. And that was beautiful. And the reason I share that is because for anybody going through infertility, there is a grieving process that you need to go through and there is an acknowledgement of the life that was that grew inside you that you felt, but a life that also now is not going to be. So that was really important for me. And from there, I basically was told there wasn't really much that they could do for me with how my body was reacting to everything. So I was told, "Go through IVF." So IVF is an emotional roller coaster. You're taking hormones, it's something that's done, again, behind closed doors. You don't talk about it. You don't want people to know.




Sarah Willoughby:

So I'm trying to carry on with this really stressful job and hold down my life at the same time that I'm trying to have another child. We went over to Norway actually to have the IVF because we'd lost a lot of faith in the UK system, and they messed up a lot of my care and detrimentally. So went over to Norway, had IVF treatment. And unfortunately, my body didn't like the drugs and it reacted very badly and I ended up in intensive care. And I can genuinely say I hope I never experience that level of physical pain in my life because I was on morphine and it didn't even take the edge off the pain. It was very, very confronting. I put on about 20 kilograms of fluid in about 72 hours. My body just filled up with fluid. I had fluid on my lungs, I couldn't breathe. I felt like I was drowning. I had an enlarged heart. I was at risk of blood clots and there was just nothing that the doctors could do to stop the deterioration. They just have to treat each symptom as it arose.




Sarah Willoughby:

And I guess one of the most defining moments was realizing that I may not recover and having to send my son back to the UK with his grandma. And he walked out of the hospital doors holding his rabbit, his well-loved rabbit, in one hand and his grandmother's hand in the other and just turned around and looked at me and smiled. And I smiled at him and I thought, "I hope I'm okay. I hope I get to raise you." That was really challenging. And it made me realize like, "What have I done?" This was an elective procedure, I've put myself in this position. And I felt guilt and I felt shame and just excruciating physical, emotional, mental, spiritual pain.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. I mean thank you for sharing that because obviously I know it's not easy. You share it for a purpose, to serve others which we'll get into. But you have a mixture of horrendous physical pain and emotional pain. I mean there's probably a whole sea of different things you're going through. I would imagine there's probably a number of people, a number of other women that have never heard of this secondary infertility. Your average person, average woman I imagine thinks once you get pregnant the first time, you're probably good to go. Obviously, as you get older, it gets tough. As you get closer to 40, it gets pretty difficult. When you're in your twenties, in theory, it's easier and then it gets harder as you go from 20 to 30 to 40.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so there's probably a lot of women that says, "Well Sarah, how can that possibly be? I mean you've already had a child, how can there be an issue, right?" You probably thought once I've had that first one, I'm good to go. Things are working the way they're meant to and let's go. So did you find other women like what is it and just couldn't understand what you were talking about?




Sarah Willoughby:

I think there was a lot of guilt for me around feeling the loss and the grief and the confusion and the resentment towards my own body because I'd already had a child. So I knew a lot of people who were struggling to have their first child. So this is something that a lot of women going through secondary infertility feel like they can't even talk about it. So there's a silence, an even bigger silence around secondary infertility because you feel like you should just be happy that you've had a child. And of course I was, he was my life.




Warwick Fairfax:

Right. So what you're saying is there are some women who've never had a child which would be saying maybe in their worst moments, and we all have them, who are you to complain? I would do anything to have a little boy, little girl, little child. And so they probably found it very difficult to understand why you would be... Because you can't really empathize fully with something you've never experienced. If they obviously have-




Sarah Willoughby:

No. And that's the same in life for anything, isn't it? Until we've walked in somebody else's shoes, we just can't understand. But I think because there's so much silence and stigma and shame around infertility and it's something we don't talk about, I think that's what makes it harder whereas if you're on a different health journey, there's a lot less silence around some of the other big issues that people face. So that's why I share my story because I want to break that silence. I want to really shine a light on this and take away that shame because we know that shame is the lowest vibration. And when we shine a light on shame, we take away the power that it holds over us.




Warwick Fairfax:

So you've talked obviously a bit about the physical excruciating pain, but it sounds like as bad, maybe worse, I don't know, but as bad with just the emotional torment that the mixture of shame, of, "What have I almost done to my son?" I mean every mother is going to think, "Nobody's going to be able to care for my child the way I can." That's just I think a part of being human, a part of being a mother. And nothing against grandparents or husband, you feel like, "I want it to be me because I'm going to love my child in a way that nobody else on the planet is going to be able to do." That's just your natural feeling I'm sure. So you've got that sense of maybe shame, anger, resentment. Maybe there was some anger and resentment against universe, God, or whatever. So talk a bit about those sea of emotions both towards you, towards others and maybe even to higher power, whoever's up there. Talk a bit about some of those emotions.




Sarah Willoughby:

Yeah. I think for me, it made me realize how much resentment and hatred I had towards my own body. I was like, "Why is this happening? What have I done wrong? Was I a bad person in a past life? What's going on here? What lesson am I not learning?" I've always believed there's a lesson and a gift in everything that we experience, that nothing is black or white, life is about duality. So I knew that there was a bigger purpose for all of it. When I actually started to recover, when the process started to reverse itself and the doctors realized that I was going to be okay, which was incredible, one of the consultants who actually wasn't working on my ward at the time, she came in, it was about 10 o'clock at night, and she came and she sat down and she put her hand on my leg and she said, "You've been really lucky." And then she looked away and she had tears in her eyes and she became my guardian angel. I have so much gratitude for her because I really understood in that moment what she was telling me.




Sarah Willoughby:

She was telling me, "You're lucky to be alive. Life is really short." And that's the message that I try to share with people now is don't wait until you're in the situation that I was in. I got the biggest kick up the bum from the universe and I'm grateful for that because it changed my life. So that's why my book is called Infertility Saved My Life because it saved me from a life that would've lacked resonance. It took me on a different path, but the path that I was destined to be on that I had been too scared to follow. So in that moment when she'd left and I reflected and I laid in bed by myself and I thought, "I have to step up for myself and for other people. I have to be who I need to be. And I have to make these decisions to move forward in my life." And then from there, I recovered, went back to the UK. Fortunately, we had done the egg retrieval so I had 10 frozen embryos.




Sarah Willoughby:

And when I recovered, I went back to Norway and I had two transferred and I got pregnant with twins. And I was like, "This is why it's happened." I'd always had this romantic notion of twins. And I was so excited and we'd already started planning an emigration to Australia, sorry, and so my whole life was going to come over here, family of five. And then in that process of moving over here, I lost one of the twins and then I lost the other one. And then I sat with myself and thought, "Do I go? Do I stay? I've got nothing left to lose. We've got to go. We've got to start a new life." And we had no jobs to come to, we didn't know anybody. We just threw it all up in the air. We left the UK in the recession so we couldn't even go back if things hadn't worked out, we wouldn't have walked back into our jobs. And we came over here, began a new life and I surrendered. And I think that's what changed emotionally for me was I let go. I just surrendered. I let go.




Sarah Willoughby:

My life went into flight. I had this pivotal moment of lying on my bed thinking I feel peaceful for the first time in my life. Don't ever let me forget that. And within six weeks, I fell pregnant with my daughter who is now 11. And then four years later, I had my other daughter who is now seven. And for me, just that surrender to life was life changing. And again, that's what I try and share with other people that we have all the answers inside, but we can't always hear them. So let's connect with self to find them. But it's okay also to not have all the answers at any point in time. Just take that first step. Just be brave, show up for yourself.




Warwick Fairfax:

So boy, there's so much of what you've said. I mean it sounds like your worst moment, this whole PCOS, infertility changed the direction of your life ultimately for the positive. It was an extremely painful experience. And sometimes, certainly in my case which is extremely different, somebody's told me several times you can't compare crucibles, losing a $2 billion family media business which wasn't so much about the money, but 150 years of heritage felt like I'd let down generations of my family. And even the country in some warped sense and it was a pretty difficult experience. And I also left in this case to go to the U.S., my wife's American. So everybody's experience is different.




Warwick Fairfax:

But talk about, I think you've begun to, is how you let go of some of those negative emotions, whether it's anger towards the universe, some sense of self-loathing, self-hatred of, "How could I do this to my son?" Or how did you let go of those negative emotions to surrender? I don't know, it doesn't seem like it was a coincidence that after that happened, you had two more beautiful children. Because I know a lot of listeners are going to be wondering, "Well Sarah, how could you let go of that anger to yourself and to the world and the universe? How could you let go of that sea of negative emotions and anger and frustration and shame?"




Sarah Willoughby:

When my body healed itself and I had no long-term symptoms, I realized how amazing our bodies are. And I also realized that the relationship that I had with myself and what I was saying to myself was the most important one. Whether we like it or not, we're stuck with ourselves for the rest of our lives, it's the only relationship that is guaranteed. And I made that conscious decision that it was going to be a good one and that I was going to practice self-care and that I was going to nurture myself. And instead of putting myself last, I was going to start putting myself first. And as women, a lot of us don't do that. We nurture and care for everybody else and we give so much of ourselves to everybody else that we have nothing left really for ourselves. But the analogy around you can't pour from an empty cup is so true. And our cup doesn't just need to be full, it needs to be overflowing so that we're not taking from the cup at any point.




Sarah Willoughby:

And that's the work that I do with a lot of people is helping them to understand that if you're okay, your family will be okay and those people around you will be okay. But if you fall over, then nobody's okay. So I think that change around mindset of celebrating my body, realizing that our body gives us clues all the time. We get a lot of our answers from our body. We feel it in our body. We get that gut instinct, intuition, whatever you want to call it. But we have that deep knowing. And when we can tune into that, then we are always on the right path. We just need to get rid of the distractions and actually be able to learn how to tune in. So that was really important for me in that journey of healing and realizing that anger was not serving me. And it's okay to be angry. We actually have to acknowledge our emotions and I'd pushed a lot of them away.




Sarah Willoughby:

And I think that was what changed too, was that I was able to start labeling how I was feeling and observe it without getting pulled into the drama and then allow it to just move through my body and let it go, because an emotion only really lasts for about 90 seconds. But we push it away, we push it away, we push it away. We don't want to feel it because it feels uncomfortable. But we need to do that because it's not the emotion that's the problem, it's what we do with the emotion and our behavior around that that's the issue.




Gary Schneeberger:

On the subject of emotions, and I might have heard you wrong, but a while back in this conversation, I thought I heard you say, and if this is what you said, I'd love you to unpack it a little bit, that shame is the lowest vibration. Did you say that?




Sarah Willoughby:

Yes. Yeah.




Gary Schneeberger:

That just struck me as very profound. What do you mean by that? Because a lot of people who go through crucibles who have those experiences that change the trajectory of their lives feel shame over it. Warwick went through that. I've gone through that.




Sarah Willoughby:

Yeah.




Gary Schneeberger:

What does that mean it's the lowest vibration?




Sarah Willoughby:

What it means is my belief system is that we are all energetic beings having a physical experience. And we naturally resonate with people, don't we? We're drawn to certain people, we're drawn to certain situations and that's all energy. But shame is the lowest vibration in terms of when we sit in that energetic space, that's where a lot of people commit suicide. That's where a lot of people go in their darkest days and their darkest moments. But what disempowers shame is talking about it, is shining a light on it, is bringing it to light and realizing that a lot of the things that we are ashamed of people don't look at it in the same way. We hold a lot within ourselves and when actually share it with other people, we realize that nobody else feels that way.




Sarah Willoughby:

So it really is about talking to other people, whoever you feel comfortable, I'm sharing that with or somebody that's completely objective and just bringing it to light and starting to unpack it. But Dr. Brené Brown, I encourage people to read her work, follow her, she's been an incredible inspiration to me on my journey about understanding vulnerability, that's another one that is really difficult for people to understand, shame, empathy, courage, being brave. Her journey in itself is really, really inspiring. She now works with Oprah Winfrey and her TED talk, I really encourage people to watch her TED talk because it's gone viral.




Warwick Fairfax:

Help listeners understand why that's so important, just the willingness to seek help and certainly seek help from others, being willing to share these things.




Sarah Willoughby:

Yeah, certainly when I was going through IVF, I fortunately had sought the help of a hypnotherapist. And one of the best pieces of advice that she gave me is that a lot of people make the mistake of allowing their tragedy or whatever they're going through, their lowest moments to define them. And like you said, we have a choice. We can use our pain to be powerful and become our purpose in some way or we can allow it to take us down. So I think mindset is just this crazy journey of every day having to catch our own thoughts because we are so critical. What we say in our own heads we wouldn't dream of saying to other people. And when we actually start to acknowledge some of those negative mindsets, the repetitive mindset that we have that is very derogatory, then we are halfway there to being able to stop it. We have 60 to 70,000 thoughts a day, 90% of those are repeated from the day before and 80% of those thoughts are negative.




Sarah Willoughby:

So we're already on this uphill battle of every day having to really work hard to change what's going on in our minds. And one of the things that's helped me is the word, "Yet." So putting the word, "Yet," on the end of a sentence, "I don't understand it yet, I'm not good at that yet," is really empowering. So there's lots of little things that we can do to actually help to reframe how we show up for ourselves and other people. And like I said, finding people that we trust. So finding a tribe, whatever you are going through in life, finding people that just love you for you, that understand you, that realizing we don't have to be perfect all the time. That's impossible, we can't be. There's a perfection in imperfection. When we start to be brave and we start to really be who we came here to be, we attract all those people into our lives that help us to continue to be our best version. So it's this vicious cycle and it's a beautiful one when we actually trust ourselves.




Warwick Fairfax:

Talk about what motivated you to write that book which I think you've talked about some of. And what from my words, if you don't mind me, your ministry, your work, your coaching, yeah, just what do you feel that your life's mission is through this book and your mission to help others is?




Sarah Willoughby:

Yeah. So the reason I wrote the book and it has been a very confronting journey because it's my story, so I know that you will understand that. So the first part of the book is a memoir, it's my life story and how I got to where I am now. And then the second part are the tools and techniques and wisdom and insight that I learned along the way, things that I wish I'd known sooner as well that helped me through that. So I wanted it to be a really practical resource for people. So it wasn't just a story of so what do I do now? How does that impact my life? How can I move forward? I wanted to integrate the two things. But the reason that I wrote it is primarily because I don't want anybody else to go through what I felt when I was going through my infertility journey, because I felt so much shame, silence, stigma, isolation and I dealt with a lot of this behind closed doors. And we don't need to because the statistics show so many people all around the world are dealing with this.




Sarah Willoughby:

We all know somebody who is dealing with infertility or we will do, and those figures are increasing. So we can hold space for those people. Even if we don't understand that journey, we can hold space for those people to be able to make that journey easier for them. So that's the reason that I've written the book is to break that silence and to help ease suffering and pain because that's why we're all here. We're all connected. We are all just walking each other home in very different ways, but that's the reality of what we're all here doing. And we can do that with love and compassion or we can become very self-centered and just think that life is just about our journey, but it's not. It's about the bigger picture. I also wanted to leave a legacy for the generations to come. So I wanted to leave something that would touch those people whose lives... I'll never meet those people.




Sarah Willoughby:

But if I could just help one person, then my work is done. It was very much about that. In terms of the work that I do now, I just love supporting people to see themselves, truly see themselves and realize who they are, see their potential, connect with their heart space, really help them to live more fulfilled lives because I believe that if we were all doing that, we wouldn't have war, we wouldn't have crime, we wouldn't have hate, we'd be in a different space. And again, the ripple effect of that, the ripple effect of the work that you're doing is huge. We don't necessarily see that with our own eyes, but we know from a heart space that we need to do this work. All of us need to do the work on ourselves, but we need to do the work for other people.




Warwick Fairfax:

It seems like there's two levels in a sense in your book, one is others who are dealing with infertility and if you have it, and obviously not all women do, I mean a huge amount do, but certainly the secondary infertility that even women that struggle with infertility may not be aware of this, take away the stigma of that and help people just give themselves some love and grace. But as you've mentioned, there's another level with people that are dealing with shame and self-judgment from any challenge, there's a whole other level in your ministry in a sense, your work that's so important. And I love this phrase, I think you have it on your profile somewhere, and I love what you wrote. You wrote, "If you have an idea or a dream that still needs to be birthed into the world, don't give up. Everything happens in divine timing and if you keep trusting, the universe will co-create with you."




Warwick Fairfax:

Well in some sense, the tragedy you went through you used as a springboard for a dream, for a bigger purpose in your life. And that seems like that's your message to the wider world. So how would you put that message to that wider world, those who are dealing with shame and grief and they may not be seeing themselves as having a dream, or they may think to themselves, "I'm worthy of nothing. Nothing I have can help anybody. I just need to hide in a hole until it all ends," because there are some people that feel that way? "Just don't look at me, shun me. Please shun me, I deserve to be shunned." Talk about how you have a different vision for people.




Sarah Willoughby:

I think for me, I connect with people on a soul level. So I see beyond all the facade, the masks that we wear. And I really encourage people to start to get still. So we've talked about mindfulness, we've talked about for me, meditation was that thing that saved my life. If I hadn't had learned meditation, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have got through what I went through when I was in hospital in Norway all those years ago. So nature is that thing that helps me every single day to get out of a dark hole or a dark head space or however I'm feeling. So that is something that each and every one of us can do. Even if you don't believe in yourself, even if you don't believe you're worthy, even if you don't know where your life is going, I really encourage people to go outdoors to just be, not do, we spend our whole lives doing and we just need to spend more time being.




Sarah Willoughby:

And what happens when we're in nature is that everything just starts to fall away, our mind, the negative monkey mind chatter that goes on constantly starts to lessen and we start to connect with our heart space. And when we start to feel that, we start to feel worthy and it's a process and it's a practice and we need to push ourselves to do it and go out, even when we don't feel like it. It's like going to the gym, even when you don't feel like going to the gym, remember the feeling that you have when you come home and you're like, "I did that workout and I pushed myself." We can do that gently, we can do that in nature, we can do that with meditation, we can do that through prayer. We can do whatever our belief system is, but really commit to finding that thing for you that fills you up, that brings you joy because you need to draw on that for when you're going through those challenging times.




Warwick Fairfax:

I know we're getting close to closing, but I want to just dwell a bit on what you've said here, Sarah, because it's so profoundly true. Like you, I love nature and because I'm a reflective person, I can reflect on all sorts of things, some of them positive, some of them not so positive. And just over the weekend, we happened to be in far Northern Michigan for the summer. My wife doesn't like hot weather, she's got a Norwegian Irish background. And so anyway, it doesn't get too hot where we are because we're so far north. But there are just beautiful woods, birch trees which obviously you have them in the UK. I'm sure if you go up north and certainly in Norway, you would have them-




Sarah Willoughby:

Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

When you were there. And just walking in the woods, we went on this just beautiful bike trail. And I remember thinking to myself, "Okay, I'm going to focus on being present right here, right now for this second. I'm going to listen to the wind going through the trees, the sunlight speckling through, then looking at the meadows and the fields and the farm houses in the distance, the beautiful mid-seventies weather," which for those in Fahrenheit, probably 20 Celsius somewhere. But I remember thinking to myself, "I'm going to focus on being present and being so grateful for this incredible bike ride and then earlier this incredible walk in nature." And whoever you believe created it all, it makes you think, "I'm a part of something bigger than myself and how blessed I am to experiencing this beautiful spot." For us, it could be nature, others, it could be music, whatever transports you to a place where you're focusing on something that's positive that helps you heal your soul. I mean it does work, it does for me. I love walking in nature or cycling in nature. It's awesome.




Sarah Willoughby:

Yeah, it is the most beautiful experience. And I didn't realize how connected to nature I was until I moved over to Australia and I know I'm blessed to live by the beach and just watching the sunset, the sunrise is so incredibly healing. And it's like you said, you realize you're just a small part in this amazing world. It's just we're all connected and we're just part of something so much bigger. We're a drop in the ocean, but we're part of the whole ocean. And I think when we really understand that, that is when life changes and gratitude has been huge for me.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well since you mentioned the G word, gratitude, I have to comment on that. So I so love, love that point. And obviously, I didn't create this whole idea, there's a bunch of people who've written on gratitude, but I do, when I start getting negative, try to focus on I'm so blessed. I have an incredible wife of over 30 years, I have three adult kids, two boys and a girl, I'm so blessed by them. We go to a non-denominational church in Maryland. I mean there's so many things. I love what I do in Crucible Leadership and the team that we have. I have a long list of things that I'm so grateful and so blessed by. And so dwell on the things that you're blessed by.




Warwick Fairfax:

I'm sure you probably have a long list. You have I'm sure three wonderful kids. You live in a beautiful part of Australia, the Mornington Peninsula, South of Melbourne. I mean I'm sure you love what you do, you've got a book coming out. I mean those are just probably the tip of the iceberg just of the little things I know that we've spoken about. There's probably a longer list. But rather than focusing on why life is so bad and life's not easy, just being in nature and just being grateful, focusing what you're grateful for. You go through that list, after a while, it'd be pretty tough for that despondency not to break a little bit, right? Some rays of sunshine to break through the clouds.




Sarah Willoughby:

Yeah. Yeah. And I just want to say with the gratitude thing too, it can be something really small. And I think for some people, when they're in that really difficult head space, as the saying goes, you can't see the wood for the trees and you can't find the things to be grateful for. So start small, be grateful for the warm cup of tea you're drinking, be grateful for the hot shower you had this morning, be grateful for the bed that you're lying in. But really just start to notice and take note and write things down, three things every morning or every evening, whatever works best for you, write them down. And before you know it, you'll have a whole book of things that you can read back when you're having a really bad day and say, "Okay, I do actually have these amazing things in life," because I think previously, I'd thought that you couldn't be happy and angry at the same time.




Sarah Willoughby:

You couldn't have all these conflicting emotions at the same time, but you can be going through the hardest time of your life and you can still be grateful. And some of those moments that were hardest in my life, ironically I have the most gratitude for those because they had a bigger purpose. They had a bigger purpose. When I think of gratitude, lying in hospital in the most intense pain, but one of the things that I'm so grateful for is that lady that came, that consultant that came to speak to me. Those two things at the time were just... But they can both exist at the same time. You can be grateful and find moments of happiness even when you're grieving, even when you're going through the hardest times.




Gary Schneeberger:

Also, what can happen at the same time is you can be in a plane and the plane is about to land. And that sound you just heard, listener, was the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign indicating that we're going to land this conversational plane in a bit. But before we do, I have to point out something that I love. I love a lot of things about co-hosting this show. The thing I love the most is when Warwick and the guest speak the same words in different languages, if you will. There have been so many instances in this conversation with you, Sarah, in which you've said something that's a shading of what Warwick talks about all the time in Crucible Leadership. And the one that sticks out to me, Warwick defines the end goal of moving beyond your crucible as a life of significance. And he defines that as living a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.




Gary Schneeberger:

And you used a phrase in this conversation, it just slipped by, but I wrote it down because it strikes me that that's your way of saying the same thing. We're all just walking each other home. There's just something so beautiful about that idea of, again, you're living your life on purpose, you're noticing things and you're serving others, we're all just walking each other home. That's just one of the examples and it's just one in this episode in which you guys have talked about similar things, similar rhythms in different words. And that shows me the universality of the principles of what we're talking about. I would be remiss before the plane gets on the ground though, Sarah, if I did not give you the chance to let listeners know how they can get in touch with you, how they can know more about your book and how they can buy your book. So where can they find you on the internet?




Sarah Willoughby:

Thank you. So through my website, sarahwilloughby.com.au. I'm also on LinkedIn, Sarah Willoughby 2019, and Instagram and Facebook, Sarah Willoughby Australia. So basically search my name and you will find me. I love connecting with people. In terms of my book, my ebook is being launched on the 7th of June, which also happens to be my birthday-




Warwick Fairfax:

Happy birthday. That is wonderful timing.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yes, that's perfect.




Sarah Willoughby:

Yeah. And I didn't even tell them it was my birthday, but that was what was chosen. So I love that. And seven is a very spiritual number, so it's all just perfectly aligned. So that's available as an ebook on the 7th of June and then it's available in global bookstores on the 6th of December from all the usual online retailers and places. So I really encourage people to, even if it's not for them, there's probably going to be somebody that might need to hear that story of hope and inspiration. So thank you.




Gary Schneeberger:

Warwick, as always and as appropriate, the last question or two are all yours.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well Sarah, thank you so much for being here. I just find your whole message so encouraging, it's a message of hope. And gosh, I feel like your story in part, I love the title of your book, Infertility Saved My Life, it was excruciatingly physically painful, spiritually, emotionally, I don't know, I can't think of too many other axes, but whatever axes there are in life, you felt them all in a huge way. But yet in some ways, the life you're living, the life of purpose which you are dedicated to serving others was birthed in the excruciating pain on every level at that time. And I know it's not easy to understand if today's your worst day, whether it's through infertility or it might be hard to understand, but maybe it's a message of hope.




Warwick Fairfax:

Talk about how you've found some purpose in the pain that you went through. And I know for me, I'm guessing it's true for you, it doesn't eliminate the pain, but somehow it makes it easy to deal with. So talk a bit about that whole pain for purpose and Infertility Saved My Life. Talk a bit about how that crucible may be excruciating, but good can come of it and how it can almost be healing in some ways. I don't know, does that make sense at all?




Sarah Willoughby:

It does. I think for me, I realized that this was bigger than me. This wasn't just about me. And I think I went on this journey of realizing that I was enough. Everybody is enough as they are. And when we get to that place of accepting who we are, flaws and all, then life really does change. And when we realize that we're enough, then we want to find our unique gifts and talents and skills and we want to share those with the world because we need them. You think of all the people that have come before us and all the inventions and all the beautiful things that this world offers us, that all happened because people were brave and because they stepped up and they believed in themselves and they believed in their dream, their goal, their vision, whatever it was. And then they took action. So it's not just enough to have the dream, we've actually got to take those steps.




Sarah Willoughby:

So whatever people need to do to get to that place of feeling enough, we've talked about it, connecting with self, mindfulness, prayer, being out in nature, writing, seeking help from others, connecting with your tribe, whatever it is, do one small thing today, take one small step right now, as soon as you've finished listening to this, because I learned the hard way how short life is. And would I have had a life of regret? I absolutely would for all the things that I didn't do, for the fact that the music was going to die inside me, for all the things that I hadn't been brave enough to walk towards. Everybody has that ability, that opportunity right now to draw a line in the sand whatever they're going through and say, "Enough is enough. My life starts again right now." And I really encourage people to do that and to find the tools to help them to do that every day.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communication business long enough to know when the last word on the subject has been spoken and Sarah Willoughby just spoke it. She didn't just speak the last word, she also did my job because I was going to round up all the things that she said as we closed the show and she just listed them all off. So I don't have to do that because Sarah is such a good communicator that she also gets it and she summarized everything that we've talked about in that last statement. So I'm left with this, listener. You've heard Warwick talk a little bit here about his story and you've heard the commonalities between Warwick's bounce back from his crucible and Sarah's bounce back from her crucible, completely different crucibles, but the emotional journey back, very similar in some ways. And you can learn more about Warwick's or learn more about it, again, Warwick's journey by reading his book, buying his book, Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance, which you can order on our website at crucibleleadership.com.




Gary Schneeberger:

There's also lots of other resources there that Warwick provides. There's blogs, there's an assessment that helps you understand where you are in your own journey in charting a course toward a life of significance. So come to crucibleleadership.com and spend a little time getting to know the assets that are there. And since Sarah took my ending away, I'm going to steal an ending from her website because as Warwick hinted earlier or said earlier, there's some things on her website that are just really profound. And on Sarah's website, when you go there to learn more about her, she gave you the website earlier, there's a slogan at the top right next to her name, Sarah Willoughby. And it says this, and I want to leave you with this based on this discussion, listener, and that is that, "Life begins right now. You've got this." That's the message of what we've just talked about. That's the message of Beyond the Crucible.




Gary Schneeberger:

So listener, until the next time we're together, do remember, we understand your crucible experiences are difficult, they're painful, they're traumatic. They can knock the wind out of your lungs and change the trajectory of your life. But as Warwick and as Sarah both have talked about today and have proven with their lives, they're not the end of your story. They can in fact be the beginning of a brand new exciting story, one that brings your heart alive as they've both said, one that if you take one little step at a time, you can get on a course toward the best chapter of the best story of your life because where it leads you ultimately is to a life of significance.

Ian Dibb knows firsthand that from the ashes of your crucibles are born the strength and wisdom to not only survive – but to live a life dedicated to serving others. Dibb’s most devastating moments were the deaths of his sister and his mom within months of each other – life-rattling tragedies that birthed his calling. He turned his pain into purpose after struggling to settle the estates left behind by his loved ones – an experience that led him to launch keylu, an online portal that helps users organize their assets for those they’ll one day leave behind. As he explains, his efforts are about more than just keeping important documents in order. They’re also about preserving important memories that give your legacy is greatest meaning.

To learn more about Ian Dibb and keylu, visit www.keylu.com

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Ian Dibb:

I could have easily just sat back and let the grief swallow me. There was points when I'd wake up in the morning and think, "Well, what's this all about?" The sadness and emptiness I felt for a while was too much at times to really bear and I actually thought to myself, "Why?" I was 28 at the time. I'm 46 now. The choice I made was to I've had to go through this. So the toughest steel is made in the hottest fires. We are given experiences to help others and my experience of losing my sister and mum has given me this energy to do whatever it takes to help people.




Gary Schneeberger:

Have you been through, are you going through right now some of your life's hottest fires? This week's guest, Ian Dibb, has some words of comfort for you if you are. From the ashes of your crucibles are born the strength and wisdom to not only survive, but to live life dedicated to serving others. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Dibb's hottest fires were the deaths of his sister and his mom within months of each other, life-rattling tragedies that birthed his calling. He turned his pain into purpose after struggling to settle the estates left behind by his loved ones, an experience that led him to launch Keylu, an online portal that helps users organize their assets for those they'll, one day, leave behind. But as he tells me and Warwick in our interview, his efforts are about more than just keeping important documents in order. They're also about preserving important memories that give your legacy its greatest meaning.




Warwick Fairfax:

Before we get a bit into your crucible story, just give us a bit of the background of Ian Dibb and some of the threads that make you who you are and maybe have led to what you do now, but tell us a bit of the backstory of you and your family.




Ian Dibb:

Yeah. I was born in Liverpool. We lived there. Mum was a GP. My dad worked for the British Medical Association. I had an older sister, Jane. I've got two younger sisters, Amy and Beth. We moved down to Cornwall when we were five, beautiful place. It's a great place for me as a dad now. This was my mum's reasoning from moving to Cornwall. It's a safe place. There's not much going on. It's quite sleepy. We're a four-hour flight from London, which is incredible. But at the same point, for me, it's been an absolute blessing. We had moved out to Cornwall when we were five. Attended school, did the normal stuff, part of a family of six. It's just been a journey. I'm one of these guys who never really looks at the end destination. I enjoy the day to day, believe we're very much on a journey, which none of us knows what's going to happen, but I just embrace it and it's something I've always said to my family about.




Ian Dibb:

I don't care what they become, but as long as they're better people and they leave this world a better place they came into it. So that might be they become the next prime minister or it might be they just become somebody who cares for people who makes a difference to their lives. My background, I went to university in Worcester, not too far from actually Warwick in the UK. After I left university, I decided I want to see the world, so I left and went through Thailand, Malaysia. Ended up in New Zealand, living there for a while and it was while I was in New Zealand actually my crucible story really took effect.




Warwick Fairfax:

Okay. Wow. Well, yeah, talk about that. That's a great lead in. So in New Zealand, so talk about what happened next.




Ian Dibb:

Yeah. So I was living in New Zealand. It was amazing, such a beautiful place and the place I would've dearly liked to stay. While I was traveling, my mum, Anne, was a GP and she was complaining about back pain for the best part of 12 months, but just put it down to some kind of pulled muscle. I spoke to mum daily. I would still love to speak to mum daily. But while I was there, I received a phone call from mum and the message was, "Ian, your sister's gone missing." To most people, it wouldn't be that much of a big deal, but my sister Jane had been suffering from bipolar for the best part of 18 years. Numerous suicide attempts in her life. Every single one of them had failed, fortunately, but this was a different occasion.




Ian Dibb:

A week later, I got another phone call from mum about half past 1:00 in the morning and that could only mean one thing. I got the call from mum and it said, "Ian, we found your sister and she'd taken her own life." It was devastating, absolutely devastating. As much as you know one of your loved ones has bipolar, there is a high chance you might lose them, you never really think it's going to happen. So I flew back from New Zealand back to the UK. I think it was the following day and started the preparations for my sister's funeral. I was 26 at the time. Jane was 28. I'm back in the UK for two weeks, dealing with the funeral and also my sister just bought a house, so having to deal with that as well. Eventually, we went into hospital late one evening and she was diagnosed with stage four terminal cancer. So that back pain actually turned out to be a grapefruit-sized tumor underneath her lung.




Ian Dibb:

As a doctor, mum knew exactly what that diagnosis meant. So it went from a family of six within a two-year period to losing two of the most inspirational people I've ever met. It was a point in your life where you either just let this wash over you and have let grief take hold of you and destroy you or you actually say, "Well, if this has happened to me, how many other millions of people is this going to happen to? Why does it need to happen in the way it happened to me? What could be done to make a difference in these people's lives?" So yeah, it was a dreadful time in my life, but off the back of that, it's given me a absolute mission to help other people who will eventually go through the same situation.




Warwick Fairfax:

You mentioned your mum and sister were an inspiration. Just talk about who they were as people and why they had such a massive influence in your life.




Ian Dibb:

My mum, as I mentioned, was a GP, but she was just one of the funniest, most caring people I've ever known. Just super kind, super caring. For me, I looked to mum. It's 5:30 and I'd be looking at the door, waiting for her to come in. I would spend hours listening to her, just being with her. Mum and dad didn't have the best relationship, so I always made sure mum was okay. From the day I left the university till the day she passed away, I probably either spoke to her or saw her every day. My sister Jane didn't have it easy. For 18 years, she suffered from bipolar. She was a teacher. She was an incredible teacher and she would often put herself into really difficult situations or places to challenge herself and she didn't have an easy time, but she kept positive though. They never lost their faith right to the end.




Ian Dibb:

As a nonbeliever at the time or somebody who had taken a step off the track, to see them go through what they did and maintain their faith and love was unbelievable. I've been blessed. We haven't had the easiest of life, but even to have, I think the best part of 28 years with mum and 26 years with Jane, it's not about how long you have, it's about the time you have with that person. They are still the people that when things go well in my life or things go bad, I want to pick up the phone and speak to them. I can't anymore, but yeah, I was blessed for those years I did have them.




Warwick Fairfax:

You mentioned your mum had a very strong faith. Just talk about that and the impact it had in your life, because in some ways, she sounds almost like a role model of a mother and a human being that just... A lot of people have difficult parents, but it sounds like you had about as good a mother as it's humanly possible to have. So just talk about her and her faith and the impact it had on your life.




Ian Dibb:

Faith is one of the most interesting things that I couldn't understand why when mum had been dealt with some of the toughest cards you can be, a daughter with bipolar, I said failed marriage, your own terminal diagnosis, but yet to still smile and shine, it just shows you actually that there's got to be something behind this. We had this kind of jokey relationship. My mum says, "Look, Ian. I'm not concerned. He's going to get you. You will become a believer." And I was like, "No, mum. That's never going to happen. It's not going to happen." Then one day, it was probably five, six years ago that I attended an Alpha course, walked into the Alpha course and instantly felt this peace flood over me like I haven't felt for the best part of 10 years. It was incredible this peace I felt. I instantly felt a small section of what mum had been blessed with as a Christian her entire life.




Ian Dibb:

One of the things mum had written in her Bible was, my children will find faith through their spouses. My wife found God two years before me and my wife was the one who got me onto the Alpha course. All of a sudden, all these things which I used to put down to coincidence actually started making sense. Even when mum was on her final day, she said, "Ian, you don't need to worry about me. I'm going to a better place," and she was completely at peace, completely at peace of where she was going. I just remember on her final day, she was in the hospice. It's quite late at night and I spent the evening with her. She turned around and looked over her shoulder and she said to me, "Ian, I love you," and that was the last thing I've ever heard from mum. It's something that sticks in my heart, that somebody who had been through so many difficulties had the strength to inspire even at the very last minute.




Warwick Fairfax:

How did you get beyond that? Because listeners are probably going to be thinking, they had obviously faith, your sister, Jane, and your mum, and you go through that, a lot of people would be pretty angry. Maybe some people "deserve" to die sooner, sometimes the humanly thinks so, but mum? No way. Not her. She's a saint. That makes no sense. I needed a few more decades with her. How did you deal with, for most people, would be anger, frustration? How did you get beyond that? I'm assuming you felt that.




Ian Dibb:

Yeah, horrifically. Losing Jane was tough because Jane was 28 and she was at the start of her life. She'd just bought a brand new house the week before she took her own life. The pressure of that was too much. Unfortunately, in the way my sister took her life, there was no way back. Most of the time, she would find a way back from it. So there was a part of me saying if I was in the UK at the time, could I have helped? Would I have been there? So you've got that survivor guilt to a certain level. With mum, I would've given my own life for my mum in a heartbeat in the same way as I would my daughter. You don't even need to ask me that question. I would be there. I'd put myself and switch instantly. So for a lot of time, there was an immediate anger, especially with God to say, "How can you let this happen? This is one of your best disciples. Somebody who's loved you and worshiped you since the day they were born."




Ian Dibb:

But then there was a kind of off switch, which was a kind of numbness which just takes over. So the grief goes. You go for a period of just existing. You don't have the super highs. You don't have the super lows. You continue to progress. From the outside, everything looked rosy. My friends would've said, his life is all a party, but inside, I was just feeling almost empty. Then it really only changed when my daughter was born and she came into the world. I go, "Okay, I can't do this anymore. Now I'm a dad. My job now is to give my daughter the safest, most loving environment I can, to know that I will do anything for her," and it changed everything, but there was still that underlying sadness, which probably lasted between six and 10 years. It really only fully disappeared when I walked into the church on the Alpha course that evening. It was like being jet washed with love. It wasn't just from the past, it was just this peace I felt. It's what, probably now six years I've been a Christian.




Ian Dibb:

Don't get me wrong. It hasn't given me the easiest times in the world. I still have my challenges. I still have tough days. I had amazing days, but off the back of the Alpha course and my growing faith and my family's faith as well, I have a peace. My sisters, unfortunately, aren't in the same place as me. They still take antidepressants quite a lot to get through this. I'm trying to get them to come on the Alpha course with me because I know it'd be incredible for them, but unfortunately in the female side of our family, we have got this depressive gene. My mum's mum had it. My mum had it to a certain level. Obviously, my sister, Jane, took her own life, and my younger sisters had the same kind of gene, which runs through the family. But I know I was the kind of guy who will try and bring lightness. I say that I'd like to be the lighthouse on the cliff providing safety and somewhere these people can go to. I'm always there for them in the same way as my mum always was.




Warwick Fairfax:

You mentioned earlier just about choice and one of the things we say on Beyond the Crucible all the time is you go through a horrific tragedy like you did in the space of, what was it? Like 18 months losing a sister and a mum, beloved sister and mum. You could have been angry and bitter against God, against yourself. Gosh, if I'd only been in the UK and not New Zealand, maybe I could have saved my sister, which is unknowable. But the unknowable things are often the ones that taunt you the most. You can't prove that it's wrong, that there's nothing you could have done. That's not like, "Oh, I'm convinced I couldn't have..." You can't prove that case. So because it's unknowable, that's the kind of thing that can haunt you.




Warwick Fairfax:

You had a choice in which one side would be for the rest of your life, the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years to be angry at God and angry at yourself and gone to, I don't know, drugs, alcohol, or there's all sorts of manner of destructive behaviors, but you made a choice not to go there. Part of it was your faith. Because there are some folks that are listening today. Maybe they have lost loved ones and they're angry at themselves and God. What would you say to folks like that? What does it mean to make that choice? Talk about that choice and what that meant for you.




Ian Dibb:

Yeah. There's a quote I love by Winston Churchill, which is, "If you're going through hell, keep going." Why would you stay in a place which is painful? Luckily, through my experience, I'm connected to some incredible people who've lost far more than I ever will. These people have lost children and they've lost so much and yet, these are the people who say, "Well, I'm going to make a difference because I don't want anyone else to go through this." So I could have easily just sat back and let the grief swallow me. There was points when I'd wake up in the morning and think, "Well, what's this all about?" The sadness and emptiness I felt for a while was too much at times to really bear and I actually thought to myself, "Why?" I was 28 at the time. I'm 46 now. The choice I made was I've had to go through this. The toughest steel is made in the hottest fires. We are given experiences to help others and my experience of losing my sister and mum has given me this energy to do whatever it takes to help people.




Ian Dibb:

It was quite late one night we received an email into the platform of somebody whose son had joined our website and had sadly passed away. We took his mum through the process of dealing with the estate and he'd left her a message. That one message was if that's all we ever achieved at Keylu was enough because it gave her peace of mind that she had done all she could for her son and how much she loved her. For the entire team at Keylu, it just blew our minds that we've made a difference. So many people go through life without really making a difference. They exist and they have a lovely time and go on their holidays, but they don't make a difference. I want to save people from the pain I've been through. If it was 10 people, 100 people, a million people, that's my mission. To get people thinking ahead and actually to make you think, "Well, if this is going to happen to me, what can I do to make this easier for my loved ones?" I guess in life, that's something we all do.




Ian Dibb:

We keep our children safe. We do all we can to make sure we provide a safe environment. That's what I wanted to create. I wanted to give people a place where they can do something to help their loved ones.




Warwick Fairfax:

Let's talk about Keylu. How did that happen? It's a magnificent concept as we'll hear, but what were you doing at the time professionally? What was life like and what were those strands that led to Keylu happening?




Ian Dibb:

After mum passed away, I was working for a print company running their digital studio. It was a simple job. It didn't take too much mind power, which is what I needed after losing mum. I remember sitting around my sister's house one evening and it just came into my head actually. Why don't people plan for this? I sat around with the family and said, "Look, guys. If I build this, would you use it?" and it was 100% yeah, absolutely. This would've made our life so much easier with mum and with Jane. So then I asked a few more people and a few more people and said, "Look, if I build this platform, would you use it?" Back then, it wasn't Keylu. We were called Once I've Gone. What happens once I've gone? What happens to your information once I've gone?




Ian Dibb:

So Once I've Gone came from a simple conversation, and then I just checked it with dozens and dozens of people saying, "If I build this platform, would you use it?" So we built a very early stage platform way before people were using technology as they are today. It was too early, so we parked it for a few years. Then technology has since caught up and as a result of that, we rebranded as Keylu. We wanted to not really just focus on end of life planning. No matter, even though we know we're all mortal and there will be a time we're not here, actually, we should be managing our lives on a day to day basis. So really, Keylu moved into the place where it's not focused on planning for death, it's managing your life. Then if something happens, it's easier for your loved ones. So very much, it's been a journey from initial sat around a table with the family to where we are today, Warwick.




Warwick Fairfax:

I think from what you said before, there's a need for this, but it's personal because talk a bit about how it's not a judgment. Everything wasn't tied up in this nice, neat bow with papers and memories and photo albums and videos. There wasn't a Keylu back when your mum and Jane died, but talk about how this is personal, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but to a degree you don't want other people to go through what you went through. Just help the listener understand why this isn't just a business, it's very personal for you.




Ian Dibb:

Oh, hugely. As I said, Jane was 28 when she passed away. She was a teacher. She had documents here, there, and everywhere. Mum, 57, GP, two or three filing cabinets full of data. Some of it was live. Some of it wasn't. It really was a traumatic 16 months in my life trying to organize the estate administration and probate. Very difficult, especially when you're not prepared for it. But then the emotional side comes in that you no longer got any opportunity to speak to that person and I deeply miss hearing my mum's voice. It's been 16 years with Jane, 18 years with mum. What would I give for one sound bite from each of those people for me? That would be far more valuable than all the different assets they own. Off the back of that, you start to realize that we spend a huge amount of time on our phones. We capture photos and videos, but how often do we turn the camera around and capture a moment with somebody?




Ian Dibb:

One of the things we love to do is I taught my daughter Alice to ride a bike. She rode off across the field. I turned the camera around on myself and said, "Alice, it's your dad. You just learned to ride your bike. You have no idea how proud I am of you and how much I love you." I store that in Keylu because that is a unique moment in my child's life. That is what I wanted from my mum and my sister, that type of knowledge that there might be a point they weren't in my life, but they planned for that, the emotional side that when somebody passes away.




Ian Dibb:

There's a lovely saying that when an old person dies, a library burns to the ground, because all that knowledge that person contained is gone. What we want to do with Keylu is actually help you to curate your own legacy, so recording messages, moments, favorite times, songs you and your family love together. So if something was to happen, it's all passed on to them and you've basically done all you can to make sure that person's still got this unique link to somebody they loved.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I just want to mention, something just occurred to me, obviously, Keylu didn't exist when my dad died in early '87 or beyond, but because my family was pretty prominent and most families are not in terms of wealth and status, a fair amount is known about them. My great-great-grandfather came out from England to Australia in the late 1830s, founded the whole John Fairfax Limited media empire. Because he was prominent back in the early '40s, when there were still folks that maybe had some memory of him when they were small, they wrote this loving portrait of him for the family. He died in the 1870s. I have that book. I can't tell you how many times I read it, how much that means to me. Now, most families don't have a book about their great-great-grandfather.




Warwick Fairfax:

We're talking five generations ago, like zero. Maybe if you're, I don't know what, the Duke of Marlborough or some prominent English aristocrat, maybe you do, but for average person, they don't. But he was a person of very strong faith and elder at his church. So reading that, it means everything to me. When I came to faith in Christ, at St. Aldates in Oxford, I felt like this is part of our heritage. It means everything to have that. There are some letters that my grandfather wrote and a couple letters that my dad wrote me. Those are precious treasures, but most people don't have that. How long ago did you start Keylu?




Ian Dibb:

We originally started Keylu, the concept was 2009, but as we mentioned, it was just too early. In 2019, we relaunched and we put a bigger team behind it. We actually said, "Okay, this is the time." We are now all using mobiles every single day. They've become a huge part of our life. Everything is now digital, so when you buy life insurance, car insurance, house insurance, you don't get them sent to you anymore. They're actually either emailed to you or you are given access to an online portal, but how many portals do you have to manage? The average person has about 80 to 100 passwords they need to manage just to manage their lives. One of the big downsides to this amazing digital changes that all of a sudden, if you are not there to actually link into those portals, that information is lost or extremely hard to find.




Ian Dibb:

There's a statistic in the UK that 25% of cohabitant couples are completely in the dark over their partner's financial situation. In the UK, there was around 200 billion in unclaimed assets, so bank accounts, savings accounts, pension portfolios, and it's only going to get worse. So it's really is that when we first came up with the idea, people, you still get your bank account details or your monthly letters sent out to you. That doesn't happen anymore. So all of a sudden, we are going to build this knowledge gap that when somebody passes away, how are they supposed to find that information? You spent a fortune on your pension, but if your family don't know where that is, it's going to go unclaimed.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. So with Keylu, talk about how that's different than maybe other financial institutions, estate planning folks. How is this different than what some people do?




Ian Dibb:

There are people out there that say, "Well, I've got a spreadsheet on my computer" or "I've got some stuff in the Dropbox account," but what Keylu is, it's a very guided process. So from signing up to making sure all of your documents are in one place. Everything is kept up to date. You've got the latest bank account. You've got the latest will. You've got your life insurance. It actually gives you a process from being one, completely unorganized to two, knowing that everything is completely organized and up to date, so if something was to happen to you, it's really easy for your family to manage the probate, giving them time to grieve and also saving them a huge amount of money that they would be spending on specialists in this area. But also, whereas you look at Dropbox as an opportunity to store documents, Keylu actually gives the opportunity to curate your own legacy, leaving behind an incredible messages, memories, photos, videos, family recipes. It's all about you creating a gift for somebody else. I think that's what this is. It's the last most precious gift you can ever pass on.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. Just talk about the peace of mind that having all those records and memories in one place gives, because it sounds like you went through, was it 16 months what you said of probate. Talk about how just that legacy that you can give to your loved ones by having all this organized.




Ian Dibb:

Yeah. If you were to sit down with your family and say, "Look, okay. Where are my documents?" most people wouldn't have the clue where to start, and that's basically what you're doing by not planning. The peace of mind is that with a click of a button, trusted contacts in your Keylu account can instantly download every single document they need to deal with the probate process. That is with a touch of a button, they can then pass it on to a professional and says, "Here's everything my dad had from his pensions, to his savings, to his investments, to his share certificates. It's all here." That, all of a sudden, you can then pass on and the process of probate will be far quicker, far less painless.




Ian Dibb:

My mother-in-law is going through this at the moment here in the UK. I think they're 16, 18 months in on a simple one-bedroom flat in London with a savings account. It doesn't need to be this complicated. The reason it is this complicated, it takes months and months and months to find missing or lost assets. So by planning ahead and making sure everything is kept up to date, it just makes that processes far easier for your loved ones and at the same point, they can just get on dealing with the grief, which will come, but this will make it easier.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the things I love about what you've been saying, Ian, is that you've referred a couple times to how these devices, these mobile devices, everybody has them. I think we all feel sometimes, even though we're all really using them and into them, I'll raise my hand, I'm into them myself, but what you've done in a very real way is redeem them a bit from the perception that they're time wasters, from the perception that they're distractors from... We've all seen in restaurants, when you sit down and you look over at the table next to you and people aren't talking, they're looking at their phones. You've redeemed that idea of taking that phone to create a document, to create memories, to create a legacy for your family. You said earlier that there's a saying that when an older person dies, it's like a library burns to the ground.




Gary Schneeberger:

What I love about what you're doing with Keylu is that the legacy you're leaving is you're using technology to when someone dies, their loved ones inherit a library. They get a library full of both that financial legacy, which is so important, but as you indicated, even more important, more emotional, more meaningful is that emotional legacy that is able to be passed along. That's a great one-two punch and it's really important here at Beyond the Crucible, because Warwick talks all the time about the reason you live a life on purpose dedicated to serving others is that it helps you leave a legacy to be proud of and that's one of the things that Keylu allows folks to do. Before I let Warwick ask the next question though, I don't think that you've defined for everyone who's not Cornish what Keylu means and why you named it that.




Ian Dibb:

Yes. We wanted a name which embraces family and protection. The Cornish name for family is Teylu, T-E-Y-L-U. The K comes from keep or your key information. So we combine the two words. Basically, it's where you keep all the information for your family. Miraculously, all the domain names were available as well, so it's absolute blessing.




Gary Schneeberger:

Indeed.




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh, that's great. I love this concept of obviously keeping all the documents at one place, but just keeping memories, it's so important. I think of your story and as you share about your mum and Jane. You founded this company in 2019. 100 years from then, let's say it's 2119, without this, how would your great-great-great-grandkids, how would they know anything about your beloved sister and mother? They probably wouldn't unless there was a book written about them or whatever. Their memory would pass, but I'm sure you've probably recorded a bunch of videos and writings and other material, I'm guessing, about your mum and sister and certainly about yourself and your wife and kids, daughter. Those memories will be preserved. I know obviously, it's early days in one sense, but imagine in 100 years, the legacy that your ancestors will have that you don't probably have from your ancestors 100 years ago.




Warwick Fairfax:

Did that make sense? You are giving a legacy and a gift that your mother's memory will not be lost. Your ancestors, hopefully for hundreds of years, will remember the incredible person she was and your sister. That's a legacy worth preserving.




Ian Dibb:

Well, one of the things that still hurts is I remember I sat there with mum in the hospital on the night she was diagnosed with cancer and she turned to me and she said, "I'm never going to see your kids grow up." That still hurts. It's as fresh as it was all those years ago, but what we could have done if we had Keylu back then, she could have recorded some messages about who she was and we could then play them for the future generations. My mum had a wicked personality. She really did. There's some stories that when I retell them, it brings her back to life. There's some key things she did, which to most people would mean anything, but to me mean the world. I think what we're trying to do with Keylu is you might not record every single moment, but just capture some key memories because we've all got our own unique personalities.




Ian Dibb:

I like to be quite sarcastic with my daughter and as a result, my daughter is super sharp. Some of the things she writes down, I will actually just put down on a piece of paper and say, "Alice, tonight, you said this." It might not mean anything to her now, but in the future, it will mean the world to her. I've just had a clear up in the office actually. I've got probably 100 hand-drawn pictures from when Alice was one right through till now. We can't keep everything because otherwise, your fridge will just collapse under the weight of hand-drawn paintings and the magnets won't allow the fridge to work anymore. But what you can do is actually grab a photo of that, put it into Keylu and put the time and date next to it and say, "Alice, this was when you were one." Then you've got a video of the kids on their first day at school, their graduation, their wedding.




Ian Dibb:

You could start capturing key moments in a person's life; otherwise, those key moments just disappear and all of a sudden, 10 years has blurred into 20 years, blurred into thirty. You realize that actually, you haven't captured a lot of stuff. You've got all these photos on your phone, but you won't be in any of them because you are taking the photos or the person on the other side of it is taking the photos of you, but there aren't any moments of you as a whole. So what I do quite often is I'll turn a camera around, grab a moment with me and my daughter because it's so important you capture that one moment in time. To me, that's one of the things I do. I don't know many other people that do actually, instead of take a photo, grab a moment, capture it, capture that key moment in time, record it, add it to Keylu so you can enjoy it now with your family, but in the future, that gift will be the most precious thing you can leave behind.




Warwick Fairfax:

Do you talk about this to folks that are thinking of using Keylu how do you use Keylu, how do you create a legacy, what are the kinds of things you should capture?




Ian Dibb:

Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of stuff we are going to continue to add to the platform. Here's a user guide. Here's how to add a video. Here's how to add a message. Here's what people are adding to their bucket list. Most people want to see the Northern Lights or see the Grand Canyon, for instance. We can provide you with some prompts and some best uses of the platform, but loads of people go to it and just explore in different ways really, but it's all about with the mobile app makes it even easier. You're walking along. You've captured an amazing picture and you go, "Now that was a moment I want to record and store forever." So it's all about actually just, it's a really easy to use platform, but how can we make it even better, which is what the team continues to do.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the interesting things about it that you mentioned to me, Ian, is that yes, there are direct to consumer transactions where people will get this for themselves to leave a legacy to their family, but you also work with some professionals like estate planners and lawyers who have leveraged this to offer their clients, right? There's a B2B kind of application as well, isn't there?




Ian Dibb:

Yeah. We work with financial advisors, solicitors, estate planners, mortgage brokers. We work with charities. We offer Keylu completely free of charge to anyone who's been diagnosed with a terminal illness. We work with organizations to provide that. That's something we've always been a key part of who we are. We want to make sure we're constantly giving back. But yeah, so we work with all these different organizations to provide a benefit, not only to them, but also to their clients, helping their clients to understand the importance of estate planning, getting their affairs in order. I think one of the key things is it's a great way to keep up to date on all your financial situation, so make sure everything's kept up to date because it's quite easy to have your will written and forget about it for the next 20 years realizing you/ve had another kid and bought another property.




Ian Dibb:

I think what Keylu does, it provides regularly notifications and updates to say, "Hey, Gary. It's been six months since you added your will. Has anything changed?" or "It's been 12 months since you added your insurance policy. Is this the latest one?" So it's actually keeping you up to date on everything in your life. It's like a life management, life planning tool as much as it is that legacy creation tool.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's incredible. Talk about some of the feedback you've received from Keylu users because I'm sure you've received a lot of feedback. What are people saying and how are they using it? What impact has it had on their lives?




Ian Dibb:

Unfortunately, a lot of people who come to us say, "I wish I have seen this six months ago or 12 months ago because I've just gone through this with mum or dad. I've not got a clue where to start." It's that kind of situation. You have to normally have a trigger point go off in your life, which makes you understand you're mortal and that might be, you've just lost somebody you love. You've just been given a terminal diagnosis. You've just potentially bought a house. So there's lots of triggers in your life that make you understand the importance of getting your affairs in order. But the overwhelming response we get from a Keylu user is I've got peace of mind knowing I've done all I can for my loved ones. Of course, all the information on our platform is completely encrypted. No one within the Keylu team has access to it.




Ian Dibb:

The only person that will ever see that information is you as the account holder and those trusted contacts you've added to access it after you've gone. I think the key thing is actually, this is brilliant because I can deal with my affairs now knowing that I've done something incredible for my loved ones. It's just the ability actually to know those people receive that message in the future. I'm just going to have a look behind me now and see where I'd put it. I've got a cassette tape here which my mum left for me. Let me just see if I can pick it up.




Gary Schneeberger:

For your younger listeners, a cassette tape is the way that we used to record things before our phones did it all for us.




Ian Dibb:

But here we go. This came before CD players and MP3 players. This is a cassette tape. On this cassette tape it says, Anne Radio Cornwall. Then my daughter came into the room and she said, "Dad, what's this?" Luckily, she didn't break it, but on it is the only recording I've got of my mum's voice. It's unbelievable because my mum hadn't planned this. My daughter found it in my memory box. That's the most valuable thing I now own, above anything else, my mum's voice on that cassette. So what we've done is taken that forward because you don't need to use a cassette tape. Keylu allows you to store all of this information. You could be walking along and something amazing happens. You open up the Keylu app. You record that message to somebody you love. Click save. Click who it's going to go to knowing that you have the peace of mind the recipient is going to get that heartfelt message at some point in the future where that've been the most valuable item they ever received from you.




Warwick Fairfax:

I want listeners to really understand how important that is. Again, I just go back to my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax. Your daughter, in the coming decade, she's going to remember you well. Yes, you've got the videos, but she will have memories. But let's assume that she gets married one day and has kids and they have kids. There's going to come a generation that never met Ian Dibb. You will have died before they were born, maybe decades before they were born. They're going to say, "Mum, dad, I've heard of my grandfather or great-great-grandfather, Ian. What was he like?" It's like, "You know, I don't really know. I was four when he died. I don't really remember him. I'm sorry." Well, they won't need to say I'm sorry. They'll be able to say, "Well, he is a pretty amazing guy. Here he is. Here he is with your grandmother, Alice. Your great-grandfather is helping your grandmother learn how to ride a bike." Now, how cool is that? It's hard for people to imagine, but that will happen.




Warwick Fairfax:

This is a gift that generations of your family and generations of other families will have. Help people understand, I know maybe it's obvious, but why that's important and why for most of us, we just do not have that in any way, shape, or form.




Ian Dibb:

I think you only realize the importance of it when you can't access it anymore. For me, I knew where my mum grew up in Bristol, so I did a little tour on Google Maps a few weeks ago and I found the street my mum grew up in and I zoomed in with a little orange man and instantly, looking at that house brought back hundreds of memories and moments that you know they're somewhere, but you need some trigger to kick them off. Unfortunately, I can't access any further because that line of my family's life is gone. So I want to make sure that there's photos. Every now and then, I walk around the house and I do a full video of the house knowing that Alice, when she's older, can go back into her house, follow that video and see the rooms I've set up at Christmas because I want to make sure that information is passed on.




Ian Dibb:

So as you said, that when I'm 96 and Alice has got kids and I've got grandkids and all that type of stuff, they can actually see that I wasn't always this 96-year-old. I traveled the world and I was just like they are, because I think that if you look at it now, when we're looking at our grandparents, the photos are in black and white and there's no videos of them. Actually, it's very hard to associate yourself with something that looks so far away from you, but actually, if you look at people doing what they've just done with the World War II, they've recolored it. It makes it actually far more real now that is in color. We can provide something incredible for our loved ones by providing dozens and dozens of videos. You can upload as many as you want to the platform, knowing that these are actually key moments that at the moment, might seem quite silly.




Ian Dibb:

I've got a video of myself and my daughter play fighting. I turn the camera around because she loves to play fight, my little girl, and it's just a really special thing that when she looks back and she's 60, she can go, "This is your granddad and me having a play fight," and that would just be so special that we're just trying to say, actually, just capture everything. It's not just when we used to have film cameras and the camera would come out at a special occasion. We now have these unique tools in our pockets that can capture videos whenever we want it. But what we do with those, how are we using those to curate a legacy at the moment? They go into the iCloud account and that's where they remain locked behind passwords and unavailable to anyone else, clearly gives you the unique opportunity to curate that into a story for your loved ones for now, for them forever, really.




Gary Schneeberger:

I want to do a couple things here, listener, before Warwick asks what I'm sure is going to be a very good question. First of all, I want to say that sound you heard is the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign, which indicates we've begun our descent of this episode, but we're not there yet, so you still got time to enjoy the flight. I wanted to add a personal story that emphasizes exactly what you're talking about here, Ian, because I got a cassette tape too after my mum passed away. My mum passed away more than 30 years ago. Late in her life when she was married to my stepfather, my mum always liked to sing and she never got to do it when she was married to my dad. Well, my stepfather was an organist who played all around the region where we live, where I have moved back to in the last six years. So my mum would go out and sing with him at these places.




Gary Schneeberger:

In the garage, I remember, and it was embarrassing when I was like 17 because my mum would be in the garage with my stepdad and his organ and they would be playing and singing and my friends would be like, "What is that?" But they recorded cassettes that they sold and when she passed away, one of them found its way to me. I digitally burned it. I have it on my phone, but where that has paid off, where that paid off, when I got remarried in 2017, my mum obviously could not be at my wedding, but she was because I did a daddy daughter dance with my stepdaughter to a song of my mum singing from that album.




Ian Dibb:

Wow.




Gary Schneeberger:

I can't hardly talk about that moment now without getting emotional about it, and that's the power of what you're talking about, those memories that move from memory to reality that you can then bring into life as you move forward. That's a precious gift that you can pass along to your loved ones, for sure. Warwick, sorry I interrupted you there a little while.




Warwick Fairfax:

No. No, that was such a great, great point. So just as we close, gosh, a couple of different thoughts. One thought I have, I guess before I ask a question is, because my family, the Fairfax family in Sydney were very prominent, we have more memories than most families. Prominent families seem to want to capture themselves for whatever reason. So as I said, we've had a book written about my great-great-grandfather. There were letters. When we sold the house I grew up in, which my dad was born in and died in back in the day when you actually were born at home, not in a hospital, there were all of these photographs going back to maybe the 1850s. There were some from the early 1900s, 1920s. Obviously, I knew some of them. I recognized my dad and others. He was in his late 50s when I was born, but there was a host of people around him and I'm thinking, I have no idea who these people are, because we're talking about 1890s, 1910 or something and I felt this sadness.




Warwick Fairfax:

Some of them were family, some of them were friends. Who were they? What were their stories? Even in my family where we have more photographs and memories than most, there was this sadness. So what you're doing with Keylu is preventing that kind of sadness. Who were the family and close friends? So really, as we close, obviously, you've moved on at least as best as you can from the grief of losing your beloved sister and mother, talk about what you do with Keylu and your life. I'm assuming there's some redemptive quality about what you do. Obviously, your business is successful. It's well thought out, but just talk about maybe the sense if that's true of redemption, hope to what you do now brings to you.




Ian Dibb:

It's everything. The saying that if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. It couldn't be truer. We work with some amazing people, some amazing companies, not only in the UK, but the opportunity to work with people around the world that you actually see different people at different stages in their journey as well. Now, if you look at where you are on a journey and you compare yourself to somebody who's never experienced it, you're obviously dealing with grief still. But then you look at people at the start of it who don't even know how to get out of bed because they've just lost someone they love and they've no idea what to do. From everything I do with Keylu, I believe that we should be the light in somebody's life and we should look back and lift people up and bring people with us. Everything we're doing at Keylu, we're doing that, but we do it on a world stage as well to say it doesn't have to be this bad. It can be easier, and actually, by just making little steps each and every day.




Ian Dibb:

Keylu doesn't have to be completed in one day. It's a journey. You can get to it over time. But for me, the experience of losing mum and Jane was the catalyst in my life to say, "Okay, now step up and make a difference. Be the person who's going to change people's lives. Don't expect it to be done for you." That's something I absolutely love at Keylu is I have an opportunity and the team all share my passion and vision. We want to make a difference. We want to help people. If people are struggling, actually look towards us because we've been there. We're used to saying quite a lot, "We care. We've been there," and that echoes through everything we do at Keylu. We've been to where you've been and we've been through it and we are continuing to grow. I always think that don't always look ahead of you. Look where you've actually been and sometimes, look around and you might think actually, I'm judging myself against people who are out there partying and drinking and look super happy.




Ian Dibb:

But look on the other way sometimes and there's people who are worse off than you that actually you can step out and help them to get to where you are. For me, it's very much a journey we are on and I'm just really blessed to have had 28 years with mum and Jane. That's far longer than some people have had. But from that to be given a life mission to help others, I think it's actually been a blessing.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough and you've heard me say this before, listener, pretty much on every episode that I know when the last word has been spoken on a subject. Normally, I would say our guest has spoken it; however, I'm also in the communication business long enough to know when I've messed up because I was so emotional in my last comment that I did not give our guest, Ian Dibb, the chance to let you know how you can find out about Keylu online. Ian, how can people, you mentioned that domain names were easy to find, how can they go to one of those domain names and learn more about and even sign up for Keylu?




Ian Dibb:

You can find us directly at keylu.com, which is K-E-Y-L-U.com. You can find us at Facebook.com/Keylulife and you can also find us on LinkedIn as well. But yeah, we are easy to find. Please log onto the platform. Let us know what you love about it, what you don't like. We're on a journey.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that is the last word of our episode today, listener. So until the next time that we're together, do remember that we understand crucible experiences are inordinately difficult. Ian described one here today, two, a couple of here today for himself and then also some crucibles that other people go through that he's worked with. They're painful. They knock you off your feet. They change the trajectory of your life, but they do not have to be the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons from those crucibles and you apply them to your life moving forward, they can be the start of a new chapter, a new story in your life, and that story can be the best story of your life. Ian's just revealed it in what he's talked about here. Warwick talks about it every week in his own life, because that new story, that new direction leads to a truly worthwhile, hope-filled future, and that is a life of significance.

What do you think of when you hear the word “cuckoo”? Those cute clocks that chime with chirps at the top of every hour? There’s nothing cute about real cuckoos — predatory birds that camouflage themselves and their destructive intentions in visiting chaos upon other birds.  Andrea Anderson Polk, a licensed professional counselor and author of the new book THE CUCKOO SYNDROME: THE SECRET TO BREAKING FREE FROM UNHEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS, TOXIC THINKING AND SELF-SABOTAGING BEHAVIOR, discusses the behaviors exhibited by those we’re in relationship with that cause similar harm in our lives. The figurative cuckoos that plague us, she explains, take advantage of our fears, doubts, failures and grief. That’s the challenging news. The good news? They can be defeated, launching you toward finding new purpose and a life of significance.

To learn more about Andrea Anderson Polk and to buy THE CUCKOO SYNDROME, visit www.andreaandersonpolk.com

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

A lot of my clients, if they're engaged in a cuckoo dynamic, the most common phrase I hear is, "I don't know who I am anymore, and I've lost myself," because they unknowingly have an imposter in their life who has become their purpose. So they lose their purpose because all of their time, energy, and attention is on this relationship that doesn't belong in their life in the first place.




Gary Schneeberger:

Did you hear that phrase a cuckoo dynamic? Maybe when you hear that word cuckoo, it makes you think of those cute clocks that chime with chirps at the top of every hour. But that's not the cuckoo we're talking about on this week's episode. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Warwick and I had an eye-opening, soul-nurturing discussion with our guest Andrea Anderson Polk, a licensed professional counselor and author of the new book The Cuckoo Syndrome: The Secret to Breaking Free from Unhealthy Relationships, Toxic Thinking and Self-Sabotaging Behavior. She talks not only about the predatory, cleverly camouflaged actions of the birds themselves, but more importantly and practically, the behaviors exhibited by those we're in relationship with that visit similar harm upon our heads and our hearts. The cuckoos that plague us, she explains, take advantage of our fears, doubts, failures, and grief. That's the challenging news. The good news? They can be defeated. And she tells us how.




Warwick Fairfax:

I so much enjoyed your book. Maybe, I don't know if that's the right word, but because part of is painful. As I was going through each of these chapters, it's like, "Check, check. Yeah. Experienced that one. Been there. Wow. This is..." So I don't know, at least a survey of one, it's absolutely makes sense. Obviously, I love the last few chapters, which talk about transforming your pain into purpose, but there's so much in this book that I just love and it rings so true. It's understandable why you've helped so many people because you have a philosophy and a method that works, that actually helps people break free from the shackles. So we'll get into this in a minute. I'd like to start a bit with this, what we call on Crucible Leadership the origin story. Tell us a bit about why you wrote the book, why you went into counseling? What's the origin story that made you feel like this is my life's purpose, to help people and to be a counselor?




Andrea Anderson Polk:

I strongly believe that our greatest place of pain is our greatest place of power and our purpose. My journey of healing started decades ago during a difficult season of my life when my parents were going through a divorce, which landed me in therapy and a personal growth journey. Out of that experience, it was so freeing for me that I decided to pursue a career as a licensed professional counselor in order to help people the way that my counselors helped me. So that's the story of how I became a counselor.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Then writing the book, it actually happened during my quiet time one morning, I was struggling in a relationship with a close family member that had left a peculiar wound in my heart. I had gone through forgiving this person. I had compassion, went through therapy again, learned how to set boundaries and was still feeling stuck. I felt guilty and selfish anytime I'd try to make room for myself in the relationship, and I'm sort of a geek. I like to study science and psychology, weave those things together in my own life.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

So I, of all things was researching cuckoo birds at the time, which I can get into a little bit later exactly what cuckoo birds are, but their nature is predatory creatures. They're imposters; they're brilliant manipulators and deceivers. I was looking through these pictures on the internet of what a cuckoo bird looks in real life. I had this breakthrough a-ha moment that I was looking for with this family member. It really set me free and helped me understand how to navigate through the complexities.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

So what I did is I laminated this photo that I found on the internet of the cuckoo bird, and I took it into my private practice. When I would meet with clients who were in a similar cuckoo dynamic, I would show them this photo of the cuckoo bird and it would evoke the same breakthrough a-ha moments, anger, self-compassion, tears. So that's something I had been doing for years and decided to write a book about my experiences, their experiences. So that's where the book originated.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's awesome. So for those that may not know, just sort of briefly get into what the actual cuckoo bird does and why it's such an insidious, almost evil little creature because that really sets the backdrop for your whole book. So talk about the cuckoo, what it actually does with the poor robins and what have you.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Yeah. So in a nutshell... Well, first of all, when we think about cuckoo birds, we think about the wooden figurine that pops out of a clock that we remember from our childhood. But in reality, cuckoo birds are cruel and clever. They're predatory creatures. The technical term is they're brood parasites, which means that they will lay an egg in a host nest. For the purpose of this example, just going to use a robin and they will take advantage of the host parents so they never have to raise their own young. Then they cause harm to the host. So a parasite is someone that takes advantage of the generosity of another person withoutmaking any useful return.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

So what will happen is a female cuckoo will hone in on a host nest, so a robin's nest, for example, and she'll secretly watch the patterns of the robin parents. When the nest is empty, very quickly, she'll swoop in and lay an egg that looks nearly identical to the host egg. She has, it's an egg mimicry that's found in their DNA. So the egg resembles the host egg in shape and color. So for example, it would look like a robin egg, blue with the brown speckles. So what happens when the robin mother comes back to her nest, she doesn't notice that the egg is an imposter. She incubates the egg as if it's one of her own. Then another thing about the cuckoo egg itself and its DNA, it has a shorter incubation time. So it hatches first, before her eggs hatch. It grows very large extremely quickly. When you look at a picture of it, it's sort of this grotesque-looking chick that overtakes the nest.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Once it hatches, it'll do one of three things. It's born with this hooked beak. So it'll either stab the other eggs in the nest to death, or while it's still blind and featherless, you can watch videos, it'll use its wings and knock the other eggs down the nest so they fall to the floor and die. It just does this instinctively. If that's not sad enough, what happens to the host parents, the robins, is that their eggs never hatch and come to life. So they expend their energy, time, and attention on this imposter chick that's not its own and they raise it. Even when it grows and leaves the nest, they still follow it around and feed it because a cuckoo chick, it has an insatiable appetite and this begging call. So the host parents exhaust themselves, like I said, feeding and taking care of it and their own eggs never hatch and come to life.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. So let's get into that metaphor. Obviously, you talk in the book about there's different kinds of cuckoo syndrome, the relational cuckoo, unhealthy dysfunctional relationships and self-inflicted cuckoo, which is self-sabotaging toxic behavior. So talk about how this whole cuckoo syndrome manifests itself and how we think in our relationships.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

So a cuckoo dynamic in terms of relationships, it could be an unhealthy relationship with a spouse or a significant other, with a boss or a colleague, a friend, a family member, a counselor even, a mentor, pastor, ministry leader. It's a relationship that is one-sided, where you are the one who is doing all of the work, where you've adopted a role as either the fixer, the pleaser, the rescuer, the always on-call person. But essentially your time, your energy, and attention is given to this unhealthy relationship. What all these cuckoo relationships have in common that I always tell my clients is that you're the host. There's something that you are doing in that relationship that is kind of feeding this dynamic. So I help my clients sort of go back into discovering what is making them susceptible or vulnerable to this one-sided relationship.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

So rather than being mutually loving and giving, it's one-sided, which is the cuckoo is being a parasite. It takes advantage of the generosity of others and makes no return. You spend your life nurturing, sort of feeding this relationship, and you essentially lose your purpose because that relationship becomes your purpose.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

In terms of self-inflicted cuckoos, the cuckoo dynamic in your life, it might not be with a person, an unhealthy relationship with someone else, but it's an unhealthy relationship with yourself, which I call self-inflicted cuckoos, which could be perfectionistic tendencies. It could be tying your worth and your value and your identity to your work, your career, your ministry. It could also be behaviors that can become addictive and take over your life. In terms of you exhibiting self-control, they start to control you. So that can be anything from shopping, exercising, online dating, your to-do list, anything that even can start out as a good thing or a passion, but it becomes obsessive and then also starts to take over your life.




Warwick Fairfax:

Help the listeners understand how this is so common, and it's not as easy as you think just to say, well, if you have any self respect, then you'd get out, which is maybe part of the problem. But help the listeners understand who may not be in this sort of toxic relationship in particular why it's so insidious and why it's just not easy to get out.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Yeah, that's a great point. The cuckoo syndrome exists on a spectrum. Abuse would be the most extreme form of that, and emotional abuse, for example, where another person belittles you, controls, deceives, manipulates. I've had a lot of clients over the years say it would be easier if this person had an affair or hit me because the crazy-making feeling of being in a relationship where the wound is invisible and the pain is so prevalent. It's like a death by a thousand cuts where the person is in this extreme suffering, but the pain being inflicted upon them is not as obvious, which is why the cuckoo analogy has been so helpful for my clients because it's a subtle, deceptive, manipulative process that occurs over a period of time. Even though this unhealthy relationship perhaps is right in front of them, it's an invisible enemy. They can't see it initially, especially in cases of emotional abuse, where typically the person shows their best self initially. They could be very charismatic. Again, it's this sort of predatory behavior of I'm going to mimic who you are and what you want, but essentially you'll be left purposeless.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

A lot of my clients who are engaged in, whether it's an emotionally abusive relationship or, for example, I have a lot of clients with their adult parents, let's say their mother who has maybe a mental illness or a personality disorder like narcissism, where it's difficult for them to put their finger on the pain, but they've got this sort of invisible dynamic that they can't see because it's not obvious initially.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

So what I was going to say is a lot of my clients, if they're engaged in a cuckoo dynamic, the most common phrase I hear is, "I don't know who I am anymore, and I've lost myself," because they unknowingly have an imposter in their life who has become their purpose. So they lose their purpose because all of their time, energy, and attention is on this relationship that doesn't belong in their life in the first place.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I want to get to some of the solutions, maybe that's the wrong word, but sort of the ways you combat this. Just, I want to touch on some of these. You have a great list here about when we're talking about how you deal with cuckoos. I love when you say it's time to guard your heart and stand strong, and you've got five steps: honor your reality, stop doing their work, set boundaries, validate your emotions, obviously seek professional help, which makes sense. But it seems like one of the core tenets you have is we need to stop avoiding truth. The path to healing means we might have to feel pain, even excruciating pain, acknowledge the truth, even let yourself get angry. There are ways of getting angry that isn't destructive to everybody around you, but in a healthy way. So talk a bit about just some of those steps, especially this concept of navigating what is the truth, not the lies that you've been surrounded in a web of lies, so to speak.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Yes. A common phrase found throughout the book that you mentioned that's been helpful in my life and my work with clients is that we suffer when we avoid reality, reality being synonymous with truth. In the case of the cuckoo syndrome, one of the realities that we can avoid is our pain, which is understandable. Facing pain can be hard and scary. A lot of people don't have the tools to deal with their pain.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Another reality that we tend to avoid is knowing who we truly are and what we want. That's what the last part of the book gets into, which I know that we share a common message on purpose, which is the antidote to cuckoos because the more... and which is interesting in biology with the cuckoo bird...Biologists have done studies that not all hosts get tricked by the cuckoo bird. The more unique their eggs are, the more that they have a signature on their egg, like squiggles and the more unique they are, the less prone they are to a cuckoo invading their nest. In the book, I talk about letting your eggs, which represent your purpose, hatch and come to life. So the more you know who you are, the more unique your purpose is, the less of a target you'll be to cuckoo birds.




Gary Schneeberger:

I want to address the elephant in the room, to mix animals. That is, the elephant in the room is so much of what you're saying, Andrea, is so much of what Warwick says and so much of what Crucible Leadership's about. I mean, Crucible and cuckoo only share two letters, but they share a lot of points together when you get through it. The thing that you said there that really hit me was this idea of people trying to avoid their pain, and that in your book, you say your pain contains truth and truth dispels cuckoos because truth is the catalyst for healing.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the ways that we say that in Crucible Leadership, part of coming back from your crucible is recognizing that what happened didn't happen to you. It happened for you. Now, we say that not glibly. We say that a lot because that's been Warwick's experience and the experience of the guests that we've had on the show and people who've contacted us. Is that a fair statement to make, that if you make that mind shift from it didn't happen to you, but it happened for you, that that helps you move along this idea of truth becoming a catalyst for healing?




Andrea Anderson Polk:

That's a great point, Gary. I love that statement. I find that powerful and really resonates. A lot of my clients, once they realize they have this cuckoo dynamic, their initial inclination is to go into shame. Then we have a good laugh because I say, "Well, now you're like a cuckoo 2.0. Now you're going through suffering, and then you're ashamed for the reality that it's even something you're struggling with in your life." So what you're saying, Gary, is so important because having that cuckoo dynamic or the crucible as you defined it, as a trauma or a tragedy, a setback, a failure. I love the work that you do in Crucible Leadership because it's creating a culture of honorability that gives people courage to share things they might be ashamed of, their failures because they realize there is hope here and this crucible experience can become something beautiful. It's this pain being transformed into a purpose. So we do share that message. I really feel that it helps eradicate that shame and gives people hope to realize it's not the end of the story, the crucible or the cuckoo, it's the beginning of purpose, really.




Warwick Fairfax:

Let's kind of transition into purpose. I just love how you say the antidote to cuckoos is discovering your purpose. The cuckoos in your life destroy your purpose. But I love talking about pain is a platform for purpose and your signature is your purpose. So talk about what purpose means, and you talk about purpose as different than dreams. So there's a lot of things in there with signature eggs, purpose, dreams, or just pain. So talk about how you transition from pain. You've hopefully, with a trusted friend or a trained counselor, you know the truth; you know what reality is; you've felt your pain. You've even got angry. You're maybe sobbing at times. You're ready to move forward. It's not going to be easy. But talk about from pain to purpose, the difference between that and dreams.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Yeah. So once you've identified who or what the cuckoo dynamic in your life is and you go through the necessary work, it's not easy. It's hard. It's the right kind of hard to deal with those cuckoos. Then it frees up your life to look at, "Okay. I feel like perhaps I've lost myself or I don't quite know who I am anymore." So it's getting back to the treasure of your true self.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

I feel like there's a distinction between dream and purpose. A lot of times I think the word dream can be tossed around and be a bit of a cliche about, well, dream big and finding your dream, which is an important part of purpose. It encompasses your dreams. The way I see purpose, it's a study of the person and their story, which includes their pain. We were talking earlier about crucible experiences or cuckoos, which are painful. The failure of tragedies, traumas, setbacks become the platform for your purpose. So I see purpose more as a state of being rather than something that you're trying to obtain. It's more of who you are. For example, you've written a book, I've written a book. That can be an extension of our purpose, but it's not the true source of our identity. So purpose, it's a deep-seated joy of the soul and it's your passions, your heart's desires, your dreams, your visions, but also your pain and your story.




Gary Schneeberger:

I've learned this in doing public relations for people who've written books for years now, and that is if you want to find the nuggets in a book, go to the chapter titles and the subheadings within the book. There's a subheading that speaks to this point, Andrea, in your book The Cuckoo Syndrome, where you say Your Dream Is Situational, but Your Purpose Is Relational. I think that's a beautiful way of putting a ring around what you just said, that it's not what you do so much; it's kind of who you are. It bubbles up from within. Fair?




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Yes, absolutely. I remember in our initial interview that, Warwick, you said, "I put 12 years of my life into this book, but I don't tie my self-esteem or self worth to the success of my book or how many copies it sells, or if it's on a best seller list." As I was preparing for the timer, I remember you had said that. So I do believe there is a distinction there, that you had mentioned that the true source of your identity is being able to help other people. So again, your book is a dream. It was 12 years of your life. But when you kind of pull out the purpose, the purpose is it's your identity. It's who you are. You can have different seasons of purpose, but at the end of the day, your purpose is secure. It's not dependent on what you do or don't do.




Warwick Fairfax:

One thing you said, it's just made me think, dreams can be quicksand and from a faith perspective, if you're not careful, they can be like idols. Obviously, bad things happen when you worship idols. For many people, certainly in the US, it could be success, fame, notoriety. They just never satisfy your purpose. For people of faith, ultimately your purpose and your faith in God, your purpose is like an anchor. Dreams are like quicksand. They will pretty much always let you down if that's what you worship. So I don't know if that kind of makes sense, that whole concept of idol, idol worship, if you will.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Yes. I like the word idols. I say desire imposters. When I think about desires of the heart, I think about there's desire imposters. There's things that come up that we, like you were saying, worship or idolize, and then they become so big in your life. They could be good things or for a person of faith, even God things, something that you feel like God has called you to do. Yeah, I have compassion for people that obtain a lot of their worth, value, and identity from what they're doing. Usually, there's some sort of wounding, whether it's in childhood or in their adolescent years, or even in their adult years where they've had some sort of tragedy or trauma, a failure, perhaps there's shame around that. They don't quite know who they are, what they want. So they're more susceptible and prone to attaching their worth and value to more to a being instead of a doing.




Warwick Fairfax:

One of the things I found so compelling, it's really the last chapter, which you talked about, Let Your Eggs Hatch: Treasures from Darkness. This is almost a confounding thought, but it's also profound. You say purpose like treasure often come from darkness in hidden places. I think Gary was talking about earlier is what you said about Crucible Leadership, that tragedy, our crucibles can almost be a gift, which is a bit of a growth concept for me that I didn't say probably up until a few months ago. But somehow there can be hidden treasure coming out of our pain, even out of our worst tragedy. So talk about that because that's not a concept that makes sense to most people, almost anyone. So talk about how that you'll have this incredible phrase and I'll read it exactly. "Part of your story and what makes you unique is the process of uncovering the treasure hidden in the dirt of your life and exposing it in all its beauty." So talk about the hidden treasure that's often found, as you say, very aptly in the dirt of your life. How does that work?




Andrea Anderson Polk:

When I was studying purpose a few years ago, I stumbled upon this scripture in Isaiah that really spoke to me. I believe it's Isaiah 45:3, which says, "I will give you treasures from darkness, riches hidden in secret places." And that stood out to me in terms of our purpose being our treasure and coming from dark places. To me, that means painful places, tragedies, things that happen in our life that create an undercurrent of suffering. So going through this process, when you think of a treasure, often it has dirt on it. You think about a diamond. It's found beneath the earth's surface and there's this beautiful process of allowing it to shine, allowing yourself to go through this journey of self discovery and not making yourself a project to fix.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

A lot of my clients come in and they've never been able to put a voice to their pain or share their story in a safe place. A lot of my clients come in, they'll sit on the edge of the sofa, sort of anxious and it's like they have this notion of can you fix me? So I just have to allow them to sort of sit back and I'll say, "Share your story," and co-creating this dynamic with them where they're not afraid of their pain anymore. They start to learn the tools to be able to go into the pain and discover the beauty in that, the truth, and a lot of times the purpose that can be birthed from those places.




Warwick Fairfax:

There's one other thing that has occurred to me. I don't know if you've found this, but my book Crucible Leadership came out last fall, October, 2021. I began speaking to different places. But I remember a couple places. We went to Seton Hall in Northern New Jersey and then Taylor University, which is a great Christian school where my kids have gone in Indiana. As I was speaking to them, it just seemed a lot of young people really resonated with this message of hope and how crucible doesn't have to be the end of your story, coming up for books and wanting me to sign them. And that was all gratifying. But there was a mixture of both joy and gratitude and pain all mixed up in the same ball or egg, if you will, because there was a sense of gratitude as in, "Wow, my book is making a difference."




Warwick Fairfax:

But at the same time I was feeling joy and gratitude and being a person of faith, thanks to God, it also rekindled just the pain of loss of a 150-year-old family media business and relational pain. It was all in the same emotion. It was both. There was joy and there was a sprinkling of agony in there, too. It was another level of healing where you don't get the level of healing unless there's a bit more pain to be healed. So we're never "totally healed", but I don't know if that makes sense. It was a weird mix of emotions. There was joy and immense gratitude mixed with a tinge of pain and agony. So I don't know if that makes any kind of sense, Andrea.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Thank you for sharing that. That is a huge revelation. I feel like what you shared is truth that can lead people that are listening to freedom. It's this concept of both/and, and being in a season where you simultaneously feel joy and gratitude, but also a sadness and loss, which really shows an emotional maturity there because what happens when we numb our painful emotions, more difficult ones like rage, grief, sadness, shame, then we also numb the positive emotions. You can't really pick and choose. So the fact that you were in this place where you felt gratitude but also felt some sadness and some grief is a healthy part of the process and necessary because that sort of experience does evoke a lot of emotions.




Warwick Fairfax:

I think what you do, Andrea, is with counseling and your book, you give people tools. The goal isn't to be in counseling forever, not that I'm against it, necessarily. Depends on the circumstances. But giving people tools to know the truth and deal with the lies. I mean, another example, not to get into too many details, but my wife's mother passed away just recently, and we were going through some... Her estate wasn't that massive relative to the way I grew up. There was some just legal things I was just helping my wife look at and it's all very normal, all very standard, and everybody's all happy and wonderful, very functional people on my wife's side of the family.




Warwick Fairfax:

But there was something in there that just set me off. It set me off the deep end. I knew I was completely overreacting. It had zero to do with what was in these documents. My reaction was completely uncalled for, unreasonable, made no sense. I knew it in that instant. Why am I reacting this? This is ridiculous. It was objectively ridiculous. Obviously, I'm blessed. Married to a wonderful wife, 32, almost 33 years. I said, "Gail, I know this is ridiculous. I shouldn't be reacting this way. So can you help me figure this out?" I had an idea of why, and obviously it led back to family business and various estate things, and I don't know, whatever. I dealt with it and prayed about it and moved on. But I guess the point of the story is you can't control your emotions. I can't stop that. That'll happen again. Something will hit me and it'll touch off a nerve and a little bit of lava will break through and that's just life.




Warwick Fairfax:

So I want listeners to understand, no matter how functional and "healed" you are, you're going to have those moments where a little mini volcano will burst or lava will pop out and you got to learn to have systems to deal with it. Not just say, "Oh, I can't believe I did that. I mean, that was irrational." I don't know if that makes sense because I want listeners to understand no matter how functional you are, if you've had some level of brokenness, you're going to have those little bits of lava that'll perk up now and again. Doesn't mean you're a bad person. You just got to have a system and a method to deal with it, if that makes sense.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Yes. That's so important. I feel like a lot of people have a false narrative or a lie they believe, that if they experience painful emotions or intense emotions, then they're doing something wrong. As you're sharing in your experience, it's quite the opposite. Our emotions, they're indicators, not dictators. They don't need to govern your behavior. You can respond instead of reacting out of an emotionally intense place.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Being able to, first of all, give yourself permission and self compassion of, "Okay, this is a difficult time. These emotions are coming up." There's pain, perhaps, and there's truth waiting in that pain to show you something about yourself or other people that perhaps you haven't known before, or a deeper level of healing can take place. So absolutely. There doesn't need to be this shame, or we don't need to attach meaning to the fact that we experience emotion. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's wrong, or just because it's scary or evokes some kind of anger towards a person doesn't mean that you should eradicate that person from your life. It's an opportunity to grow and learn from those feelings and to feel your feelings and make a conscious choice to do so is hard but important.




Gary Schneeberger:

That sound you heard, listener, was not the cuckoo clock striking the hour. It was the captain in fact-




Warwick Fairfax:

Cuckoo!




Gary Schneeberger:

-turning on the fasten seatbelt sign, letting us know that we're going to have to land the plane here in a bit. But not yet. And before we do that, Andrea, I would be terribly remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let listeners know how they can find out more about you and how they can get your book and find out more about it.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Thank you, Gary. My website is andreaandersonpolk.com. It's sort of a one stop to ordering my book that's now available. If you want to work together one-on-one, there's information on how to do that. So andreaandersonpolk.com is where you want to be.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. I'm going to jump in before I throw it back to you, Warwick, and this is the surprise I told you was going to come. On your website, Andrea, you have what you call the Cuckoo Syndrome quiz. I took that quiz this morning. It's an amazing experience, and here's why it was an amazing experience for me. I am not unaware of particularly one individual in my life who is a challenge, let's say, sometimes. Not all the time. But is a challenge sometimes. But even at the question level, before I pushed submit, and I got my results, the questions that you pose in this very short quiz about the nature of relationships that may sort of prick at your self-confidence, may prick at your self-worth, may cause you troubles, I mean, it opened my eyes to the fact that this situation, this relationship was more harmful than I had realized even though I've talked about it with my wife; I've talked about it with people. It's not, again, not like I'm not aware of it, but I became more deeply and more significantly aware of it just by the questions.




Gary Schneeberger:

I'm not going to bore everybody with my entire result, which I have right here. But there's a couple things that in the result that were just remarkable. I couldn't believe that this was extrapolated from the answers I gave. "Most days," the results say, "You are trapped in a vortex of unhealthy relationships, toxic thinking, and self-sabotaging behavior occurring simultaneously." I'm the combination cuckoo, which is the most common result, you say. "You really invest yourself deeply in both your relationships and your work, whether it be career, ministry, or a passion project. You're intelligent, conscientious, and hardworking. You do it all. You have an intense inner drive to succeed in business, family matters and community related endeavors. The truth is underneath, you battle insecurity, doubt, and fear." And this is a part that got me.




Gary Schneeberger:

"From the outside looking in, you've got it all together, or you're living your dream. What people don't see is that you're burned out, fatigued, struggle with frequent bouts of depression and are anxious most of the time. Or perhaps you don't spend as much time as you want with the people closest to you." 7 questions on a quiz or 10 or 15, whatever they were, it nailed things that I, again, not unaware of at the surface, but you got me at the bottom. That quiz got me at the sort of the midpoint to the bottom of that iceberg. So thank you for that.




Gary Schneeberger:

Listeners, I cannot endorse enough. This is not a Crucible Leadership endorsement because I don't speak for all of Crucible Leadership. But Gary Schneeberger, the co-host of Beyond the Crucible says go to Andrea's website, take the Cuckoo Syndrome quiz. You will find some revelation and some points to work on to pray about if that's what you do, to work out, to talk to people about, to explore in therapy. Is a very valuable resource. Thank you for providing that. And it's all free of charge.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Thank you, Gary, for sharing that and your vulnerability, that the combination cuckoo...When I took my quiz that I created, that's what I came up with also. I have this tendency in areas of my life where I get so passionate and I invest myself that I tend to burn out and neglect other important relationships in my life. So thank you for taking the courage to share that. I can relate to that. I feel like it's something a lot of people can relate to, the cuckoo dynamic not might not be a person or a harmful relationship, but yeah, it can be something that's happening internally. So I appreciate that. That was a gift to me for you to share.




Gary Schneeberger:

Thank you. Warwick.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow.




Gary Schneeberger:

Take us home.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Well, Gary, thank you so much for sharing that. That is really profound and helpful and it just goes to show, we may seem we have it all together and life is good, which I think for you and I, I think we know each other pretty well. I think all things being equal, life is pretty good. We're both grateful and thankful for our wives and family. But it's a journey and it's just life is not easy. Yeah, so that was just profound. Thank you so much.




Warwick Fairfax:

The last thing I had on my notes, Andrea, that to me maybe I feel sums up a lot of what you're about. This is what I'd written down from your book, and you say, "A person's greatest place of pain is their greatest place of power. Their area of weakness is their area of gifting." So talk about... That does feel like a message of hope. So talk about how that, what you just wrote there really is a message of hope for those who are listening.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

Yes. That's interesting. When you read that, even though it's something I wrote, it evokes an emotion. That was unexpected in me right now because my greatest places of pain growing up were counseling because of the decades of counseling people that were close to me went through that hurt instead of helped. Like God, the church, faith is a very painful place. I would never, if someone had told me that years ago, I just would've looked at them like they were crazy. Being able to talk with you today and have such a profound, meaningful conversation as a counselor, as a person of faith who's helping other people has now become the greatest joy of my soul and all of those things were so painful to me growing up.




Andrea Anderson Polk:

So I feel very blessed to be able to sit here and to share with both of you today. It's such a gift and it is a message of hope because the greatest lie we can believe is that we should avoid the places that cause us, not even the pain itself, but avoid the places that cause us the most pain. That's such a lie because the truth is when you press into that, there is a beautiful purpose that's waiting for you there.




Warwick Fairfax:

I just want to add one more thing before we close because I think what you said is so profound, and as I look back at the pain I've gone through and losing this $2 billion family business and letting down parents and some pain from a close family member. As I'm able to use that pain to help others, there is healing. There is gratitude. It's been years in the making. I've come to a point where I can honestly say I'm grateful for what I went through. There's a sense of gratitude because the mission and purpose I have and perspective, I wouldn't be who I was without that pain. It's just a part of my DNA. I'd be a fundamentally different person.




Warwick Fairfax:

Not to get into historical figures, I think of Franklin Roosevelt, who was this happy-go-lucky aristocratic kind of guy, life of the party in the '20s. He got polio as an adult, which is very rare and death sentence back then in terms of politics. You were meant to just hide away, it was shameful back then. Well, he became president during the Great Depression and he had a level of compassion and empathy and courage. He wouldn't have had a prayer of being elected president if he hadn't had polio, never would've happened. He became a fundamentally different person. So I don't know if Franklin Roosevelt would've ever said his polio was a gift. Hopefully he did, but it was a gift of the country, both in the Depression and World War II. It's a weird thing to say your greatest pain could be your greatest gift, but I think for me, and I think maybe for all of us, that would be the case. So I'll let you have the last word. But does that make any kind of sense?




Andrea Anderson Polk:

That's beautiful because our pain has a dual purpose, which is it allows us to move into a deeper level of freedom and healing and it allows us to touch the lives of other people because your pain, it makes you human and relatable. The purpose of purpose is to be able to serve other people and give them hope. It's not because I'm so special that this happened in my life. It's I want to be able to help you and serve you and give you the hope and courage to push through that pain and to see what's waiting on the other side.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough, listener, to know when the last word on the subject's been spoken, and Andrea has just spoken it. On this episode of Beyond the Crucible, which I think, well, no, I don't think, I know this is a historic episode of Beyond the Crucible because all three people who've been talking got really close to crying in talking about what we were saying. That says, in all seriousness and all transparency and all honesty, that speaks to the effectiveness and the import and the value of what it is that Andrea and her book The Cuckoo Syndrome bring to our discussion here on the show about how to make sure that your setbacks and failures aren't the end of your story, how to move beyond them.




Gary Schneeberger:

So until the next time that we are together, listener, please remember that we do understand, hopefully you heard it in this episode. You'd be hard pressed not to have heard it in this episode. That we understand that your crucible experiences are painful, that they're difficult to navigate. They're difficult to move beyond. But again, what I hope you heard in this conversation is that they're not the end of your story. They, in fact, if you learn the lessons from them, if you come to regard them not as something that happened to you, but happened for you; if, as Warwick said, you can see them as a gift, they can be the start of a new chapter in your story. That new chapter leads to the greatest place it possibly could, and that is a life of significance.

It’s the essential, sometimes heart-wrenching, often-life-changing question pondered by those who move from one act of their lives to another: “Is this all there is?”

In this wrap-up of the eight episode series, SECOND-ACT SIGNIFICANCE, host Warwick Fairfax and cohost Gary Schneeberger extract from the stories shared by guests four key steps you can take to pivot from Act 1 to Act 2 in your own life. And they discuss what all of those guests have in common with a former Major League Baseball player – an All-Star and onetime rookie of the year — who used his own “Is this all there is?” moment to craft a second act going on 50 years that has given him more significance than any home run he ever hit.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Warwick Fairfax:

Often in some of the stories we're going to be talking about, we'll be talking about folks who are in cubicles. They feel like they're stuck, maybe depressed, maybe unfulfilled, and they're thinking, "Is this all there is? I'm an accountant, I'm an assistant. I mean, there's got to be more to life."




Gary Schneeberger:

Is this all there is? That's the essential, sometimes heart-wrenching, often life-changing question we ponder today as we wrap up our series, Second-Act Significance. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This week, Warwick and I tie a bow on the package of the eight episodes on which we interviewed men and women from all walks of life who have one thing in common, pursuing and achieving a second act in life that is bringing them more satisfaction and significance than their first act ever did. How did they do it? That's the meat and potatoes of this episode. We have extracted from the stories our guests shared four key steps you can take to pivot from act one, to act two in your own life and we'll reveal along the way, what all of them have in common with a former major league baseball player and all star, and one-time rookie of the year who used his own "is this all there is" moment to craft a second act going on 50 years that has given him more significance than any home run he ever hit.




Gary Schneeberger:

This is the wrap up episode of the previous eight weeks, listener. And that's two months of time. That's one sixth of the year, we have dedicated to this subject because we believe and we think it's been born out in this series that this is extremely important to talk about. So how we're going to do this is you'll be hearing from the guests who shared their stories during this series who offer all kinds of inspiration, hope, practical stories about moving into the life you were born to live, on purpose and in service to others.




Gary Schneeberger:

And to get us going as it's often the case, when it's just me and Warwick talking without a guest, we call them dialogue episodes. If you want to hear the inside baseball term. We're going to use as our discussion template for this, the newest blog at crucibleleadership.com actually written by me, which summarizes some key learnings and some key takeaways.




Gary Schneeberger:

And most importantly, some steps you yourself can take as you look to navigate that journey from first act to second act. And as a bonus, because we like to add bonuses when we do the podcast, we're going to add a fourth tip. So we've got three tips in the blog about how you can move from first act to second act smoothly and with success and significance. And then we've added a fourth one here for our discussion. So it's going to be really, I hope quite an emboldening conversation, a buoyant conversation, an important conversation.




Gary Schneeberger:

We're going to begin here as we do it. This is fun for me to begin here personally because the story that we're going to begin with and I'm going to tell is actually the story of someone I had the pleasure to know closely in the mid to late '90s when I lived in Palm Springs, California. His son-in-law is my spiritual father, the man whose church I became a Christian in.




Gary Schneeberger:

I got to know this individual very well in the mid to late '90s when I lived in Palm Springs. And his name is Albie Pearson. Probably you've never heard of Albie Pearson. A couple things about Albie Pearson that make him interesting is that he was, and you can look it up on Wikipedia, it's true, he was the 1958 American League Rookie of the Year in Major League Baseball.




Gary Schneeberger:

Okay? So that just level sets who Albie Pearson was. But before that, long before that, when he was just six years old, he was just a baseball loving boy living in Southern California. He didn't have a lot of friends around that he could play ball with, so he did what any enterprising, young wannabe ball player would do. He snatched his mother's decorative pillows, silk pillows off the couch, built a diamond in his backyard and did what I didn't do it with my mom's pillows, but I did the same thing.




Gary Schneeberger:

I would create baseball games. Just me and my bat and my mind. I would have the play by play and do the whole thing. What Albie's constant game, the game he always played out, minding it with a bat in his hand and nobody else around, just his mom's silk pillows, Albie would always have the game end the same. It was the world series. The bases were loaded. He was up... Mind you, he's six years old when this is all happening. He was at the plate. The ball would come across the plate and Albie would hit a home run, a grand slam to win the World Series, this is a fun part, against the Yankees. Because he's from Southern California. Even back then, right after the era of Gehrig and Babe Ruth, people who didn't live in New York didn't like the Yankees then either.




Gary Schneeberger:

So he would hit the home run that beat the Yankees. And as he rounded the bases, he would hear the roar of the crowd, and it was a beautiful thing. He was basking in the glory of what he felt was going to be his stamp on life, a major league baseball player. But in one of those games that happened in his single digits, something occurred that hadn't occurred before. As he was crossing home plate on this mythical home run as he's running the bases in his backyard, stepping all over his mom's good pillows, Albie heard a voice in his head, say this to him, "Join my team."




Gary Schneeberger:

He didn't know exactly what that meant, so as any six, seven-year-old would do, he was like, "Okay," put it out of his head, went on, kept playing his games. But here's where the story gets really interesting because Albie Pearson would move on to make his major league dreams come true. As I said, he was the 1958 American League Rookie of the Year. He bounced from to the Baltimore Orioles. He ended up with the California Angels at the time where the Los Angeles Angels.




Gary Schneeberger:

They'd been California, Los Angeles, Anaheim, and Los Angeles, again, now I think, but they were an expansion team as the Los Angeles Angels in 1960. He was in fact, the first batter to ever appear at the plate for the Los Angeles Angels in 1960. What makes the story about six year old Albie beating the Yankees in the World Series with a home run is that he actually did hit a home run against the Yankees. No, it wasn't the World Series, but he was at the plate against a pitcher named Whitey Ford.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's the name you probably heard if you're a baseball fan. Whitey Ford was a six-time all star. He's in the Major League Baseball hall of fame. He is he's well known as a Yankee legend. He's lefthanded. Albie happened to be left handed, which if you know baseball, hard for a lefty to hit a home run off a lefty, but Whitey Ford threw in a curve ball. Albie parked it over the right field fence and he got to not step, not round the bases on his mom's pillows, but on actual bases in a Major League Baseball stadium.




Gary Schneeberger:

And as he got to home plate, as he crossed home plate, he was amazed that his mind went right back to that moment at age six, that he hadn't really thought about when he heard that voice say, "Join my team." And in that moment, Albie realized as much as he loved baseball, as much as his career was going pretty well, he hit 128 home runs, I think in a 10-year career. One of them was off Whitey Ford, fulfilling in many ways that dream he had when he was six. As much as he loved that life, he realized when he remembered that moment, "Join my team," that there was something bigger, better for him, more significant for him.




Gary Schneeberger:

And what Albie has done from that moment on after his career ended, and it wasn't too long after that, until this day, I just talked with his son-in-law who's my spiritual father, just today, Albie is still pastoring more than 50 years as a pastor to churches. And in the late '90s when I knew him well lived in the same city, he opened a nonprofit called Fathers Heart Ranch to teach to at risk male youth God's principles and help them navigate life.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that was the life of significance that Albie discovered was his destiny, not just playing baseball. Warwick it's a lot of talking by me, what's your reaction? I know when I first wrote that story in the blog, it kind of hit you like, "Wow, that's a pretty cool story," because the thing that Albie... And here's the big part of the story that I almost left off because I got so excited. As he crossed home plate, when he hit that home run off Whitey Fort, the first thing that flew in his head when he remembered that story of, "Join my team," he thought, "Is this all there is? Is this all there is?"




Gary Schneeberger:

The dream he had since age six had come true mostly. And as he crossed home plate in front of fans, he could only think is this all there is? Is baseball success, this success what I wanted for myself, is that all there is? He discovered when he did this and he became a pastor and he helped underprivileged kids, and he's done that for 50 years. He realized there was more to his life, more to his calling than hitting and catching baseballs. So how did that story hit you, Warwick, when I first dropped it on you?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's an amazing story, Gary, because often in some of the stories we're going to be talking about, we'll be talking about folks who are in cubicles. They feel like they're stuck, maybe depressed, maybe unfulfilled, and they're thinking, "Is this all there is? I'm an accountant. I'm an assistant. I mean, there's got to be more to life." But in this case, for all the world, Albie Pearson was living the dream. He's in Southern California playing for the Los Angeles Angels. Maybe it wasn't the World Series, but he hits a home run off the dreaded, the infamous, New York Yankees.




Warwick Fairfax:

Maybe some people think they're like Darth Vader's team. I don't know. Maybe that's cruel if you're a Yankee's fan, but anybody that's not a Yankee, it's a wonderful thing to beat them. So at the height of his success, it's like, "Is this all there is?"




Warwick Fairfax:

I don't know if he was thinking, "Gosh, this was really my dream and I was focused on myself." I don't quite know why Albie said that, but clearly it was a wonderful journey, a wonderful dream, but yet he pivoted to another dream in which I'm sure he would say as wonderful as being a major league baseball player was he would probably say his second act was even more fulfilling, was even another level of joy. And here he gets to help at-risk male youth and become a pastor.




Warwick Fairfax:

So it's a classic case of that first act wasn't so bad. It was pretty amazing, but yet there was a second act coming up that was even more amazing, even more fulfilling from his perspective.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. The reason that he popped immediately to mind as we were going through the series because every guest in some way or another had as part of their story whether they articulated it or not, is this all there is? They were doing something that in many cases was fulfilling in its own way. Some of them felt stuck. Some of them had really bad crucibles, but whether they articulated the question or not, there was a moment in time where they were wondering, "Is this all there is for my life? Or could there be something better? Could there be something different? Could there be something that gives me a greater sense of purpose and significance?"




Gary Schneeberger:

And the guests then that we're going to review here and the practical tips they give us about how to find that out and how to find that life and significance is how we're going to spend the balance of our time here. Is there anything you want to set listeners up to as we sort of go into these four tips of how you can scratch that, "is this all there is" itch in your own life?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I think what you said, Gary, is very profound, is it? How do you know when you're ready for a second act, the significance? And often it's because you're in a cubicle, maybe you're in a traumatic experience. Maybe life is just feeling boring, you're feeling stuck. So when you begin to say day after day, going to the cubicle, going to the office, whatever it is, is this all there is? That is a question you need to listen at the depths of your soul, because that might mean that whether you believe in God or some universal power that it's not all there is, that maybe somebody up there intends something better, something greater for you from your perspective and his perspective.




Warwick Fairfax:

That question, is this all there is? If you ever think that, you may well be at the cusp of a turning point in your life, a pivot to a second act of significance that is probably the single most powerful question and huge sign that you may be about to transition to a wonderful new time of your life.




Gary Schneeberger:

And here's what we're going to talk about, listener. We've got four tips, like I said, of how you can navigate that journey once that question that, is this all there is feeling hits you. There are four ways, four hopes, inspirations, and then practical steps that you can take. So here's the first one. And the first truth is, it's never too late or too early to pursue a next act in life that brings you more significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

And this was a theme, Warwick, with a number of our guests, perhaps most resoundingly with Robert Miller. Robert Miller was like a lot of guys like Albie. A lot of guys who grow up wanting to play baseball. Robert Miller wanted to play music. He came of age during The Beatles and he wanted to be a rockstar. From the first time he picked up an instrument, that's what he wanted to pursue.




Gary Schneeberger:

But then his dreams got deferred as often happens, right? There's beats in life, there's responsibilities, there's other jobs to pay the bills that maybe paying him more than playing music. There's relationships, and marriage, and kids, and those things. They were all great. He enjoyed them all. He ended up in a career as a lawyer, which lasted for decades. But in his 40s, he had a crucible, got in an accident, broke his neck that got him thinking even more about that dream that he sort of left on the cutting room floor. And that's when in his 60s, he's done as a lawyer, he's retiring, and he picked up his guitar and he launched his band Project Grand Slam.




Gary Schneeberger:

Finally, he got to feel the rush of playing original songs on a stage for an audience. And he's done it at festivals and concerts around the world. The group has released 11 albums with its unique brand of rock, Latin, jazz fusion. One of them has been certified gold. He's got millions of downloads on video and on audio. And the key to all that story, is that he didn't just think about, "Boy, this was my dream." He finally decided, I've got to act on this dream. That's a pretty powerful first step to take, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, Robert Miller is such a fascinating story. Grew up with a love of music and mentioning his dad was a jazz trumpeter. It's sort of an amazing story. When you think about it and briefly, we tried to get in that maybe, I think he was working at PBS in Boston, but I think his parents, dads, be practical as parents often do. And he, for the next umpteen decades becomes a lawyer.




Warwick Fairfax:

He's living in New York City and he's doing well. But you mentioned the accident in his 40s. Even then, years went by and he's approaching 60. He finally just says, "I'm just not going to let this go. I'm going to start pursuing my dream." Now, most people, when they get in their late 50s, early 60s, they say, "Well, I had my shot. I had a good career. I've got a good life, married family."




Warwick Fairfax:

But the fact that he made the pivot to Project Grand Slam and later his podcast, Follow Your Dream Podcast. I mean, it's stunning. He just had the courage, he just hit a point where he's like, "Is this all there is?" I'm just going to go for my dream. It's just incredible. Really the lesson there is it's never too late. No matter how old you are, it is never too late and it wasn't for Robert Miller.




Gary Schneeberger:

No. And in fact, listener, here's a clip from our original interview with Robert in which he, in his own words talks about that moment when he decided, "If I'm going to do it, I better do it soon."




Robert Miller:

You have a dream, you have a path, you have a burning desire, life gets in the way. We don't plan for it. It just happens. And it happens to most of us. Most people don't wind up doing exactly what they dreamt they would be doing when they were younger. Either it wasn't practical or it wasn't in the cards where their uncle offered them a job, and they went into this, that, or the other thing. Stuff happens. That's the usual case. It's the unusual case of somebody that knows at an early age, this is what I want to do and they actually do it.




Robert Miller:

So the question then becomes, "All right, do you let that dream go? Was it just a youthful, fancy of some sort? Or do you pursue it?" And frankly, when I decided to jump into the deep end of the pool, I had just passed my 60th birthday and I said to myself, "If I don't do it now, when the heck am I going to do it?"




Gary Schneeberger:

So when am I going to do it, if I don't do it now. What a great question that is, right? If you've suppressed a dream, say, he was a teenager, he was in his 60s. So you're talking 40, 45 years. That's a pretty amazing thing to do to come to the place where you can say, "I'm going to do it. I don't know how it's all going to turn out, but I'm going to do it."




Gary Schneeberger:

He's not the only one though, because if you remember, our first point is it's never too late or too early. You're never too old or too young to move into a life of Second-Act Significance. And on the opposite end of Robert Miller is a guest we've had on just in the last couple of weeks, Yvette Bodden who was a young mother going through a very, very, very difficult divorce, and she faced the same decision. If there was more to life than what she was doing, she had an office job. It was enough to get by day to day, week to week.




Gary Schneeberger:

But as her life began to unravel through the divorce, she used that unraveling as a way to sort of explore what she really wanted to do and whether she was doing it. She slowly found blessing and purpose as she described it, that she says she wouldn't have ever discovered if she hadn't gone through the crucible that she went through.




Gary Schneeberger:

She was able through that to step into what she really felt like her heart was calling her to, and what her giftings allowed her to do and that was to become a thought leader and writer and create a web platform called Awakened Woman, which encourages women to dream big as they pursue their own passions by exercising their giftings.




Gary Schneeberger:

That was one of my favorite episodes of this series with Yvette. Maybe because I'm a journalist by training too, that's what she's doing now and I felt a certain chemistry there with that. But what stands out for you about our conversation with Yvette?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yvette is so authentic, vulnerable in the best sense of that word. She has a real compassion and heart. Hers is an amazing story growing up in New York City. The daughter of Dominican parents. And often with the immigrant experience, there's this great desire to obviously make it, but to be practical. And so here she was just working in sort of administrative event planning role and some probably office in New York City and being all very practical, but kind of losing herself in a way. She was married.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's this sad thing of, as she described to us, the more that she began to get in touch with herself as she was journaling and beginning to write, the more she was becoming her, the real Yvette as she put it, it caused distance in the marriage with her husband, which is unbelievably sad and they had a daughter.




Warwick Fairfax:

So as she was finding herself, this sheer act of finding herself somehow contributed to the breakup of her marriage. I mean, she wasn't doing anything wrong. She was being herself, but for whatever reason, and this is part of it, it broke up the marriage, which was sort of devastating, but yet she didn't let that loss define her nor did she say, "I'm just going to still live my cubicle administration event planning life."




Warwick Fairfax:

She kind of bounced forward, if you will, with Awakened Woman as she's shared, I think maybe like 500 articles. She wrote a book, The Journey to Becoming Your Best Self, which is, I guess, part inspiration, self-help, biography, some fictional stuff in there. Really a mix of genres. And she really has this passion to help women rise up. I mean, she's just this role model of not giving up and just inspiring so many people.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, she talks about people from all around the world write to her from Africa, from everywhere. And just saying "it's inspiring that I can rise up too." There's was a wonderful moment in the podcast where times were tough with the depth of the breakup of her marriage and she probably had some moments where she was thinking, "Can I really get myself out of bed this morning?" Because life is very grim. Her daughter came to her and said, "Mom greatness takes time."




Warwick Fairfax:

It felt like that was part of her inspiration. She wanted to rise up, not just for herself, but for her daughter. She is so inspirational. She didn't let tragedy define her. And her second act of just helping women rise up with Awakened Woman, it's stunning, it's empowering. She's helped so many women all around the globe and she's an incredible story.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And that story about her daughter, you've heard X doesn't fall far from the tree, right? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The encouragement apple did not fall far from the tree if that's what Yvette Bodden's daughter was able to do to encourage her mom, because what we'll hear right now in this clip from the show is a Yvette talking about the way she tries to encourage women through awakened-woman.com.




Yvette Bodden:

You can fall a hundred times, but you can rise up. I know it sounds simple, but I wanted to inspire that fight in other women. I feel that my writing is doing that. When I get messages from women in Africa and other parts of the world saying, "You planted a seed. Thank you for sharing your story. The same thing happened to me and I feel like I can get past it," I know I'm doing something right.




Gary Schneeberger:

The thing that stands out for me about that clip and about the whole show with Yvette was her heart. You can tell, as you listen to her, that she feels what she's doing to help women is significant, but you can also tell that she feels significantly honored and blessed to be in the position to do it. When we talk about significance being living a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, yes, that transfers significance to others, but it fills the person with an enormous sense of gratitude and significance from where she came to just in that clip that we just played, the emotion in her voice. So she talks about what she tries to inspire women with is itself inspirational. I hope is practical for listeners to tap into that own root in themselves.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Gary, I love the phrase that she has. You can fall a hundred times, but you can rise up. I mean, just her desire to fight for women, to help them rise up all around the globe by sharing their story, she loves interviewing and you're right. She doesn't see it as about her so much as sharing the stories of these other amazing women. If you had to say, "What is the theme of her life?," it's you can rise up. In our words, we say, "You're not defined by your worst day."




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, Yvette Bodden wasn't. She rose up, her daughter has risen up, and she's helped women all around the globe rise up. Her story is powerful. I mean, it's an inspiration to all of us.




Gary Schneeberger:

And here's some of the bonus content that's not in the blog that we're adding in here. Yvette and Robert aren't the only two folks who talked about, who touched a little bit on the fact that it's not too late ever or it's not too early ever to get moving toward a second act of significance if for whatever reason, the first act did not feel as significant as your heart tells you it should. And another guest who touched on this in really powerful ways was Nancy Volpe-Beringer, who was in her late 50s when she let herself not just dream of a career in fashion design, but pursue it.




Gary Schneeberger:

She had success and security with a great job, but there was something, again. She didn't put it in these words, but there was something there that said, "Is this all there is?" As a young girl, she'd liked to sew and she never pursued that, and she remembered that and it led her into saying, "Okay, I'm in my 50s. I'm about to turn 60, but it's not too late for me." How did that story hit you? And then we'll play her clip when that moment hit her.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, she is an inspiration. She had a good job in, I think, like a National Teachers Organization in New Jersey and she was doing well, set for life. But it's like she had, "Is this all there is" moment? And began to think of it as a fashion design. I mean, it's just stunning. Typically in your late fifties, you don't think of doing that. When you go to fashion school, so to speak, all the other people are in their 20s, maybe 30s. They're all young. She didn't give up on her dream. It's just she had is this all there is moment and she didn't let her age define her or stop her courage about pursuing her dream. It's an amazing story.




Gary Schneeberger:

I will never forget her unlikely and powerful story about the moment when she decided to press into that second act of significance. And here's Nancy Volpe-Beringer talking about it in the podcast.




Nancy Volpe-Beringer:

It was 3:00 AM. I know exactly because I wasn't sleeping. It's 3:00 AM and I'm thinking of my sons. The one is in finance, president of a company, very successful. The other, the musician, had graduated, had a recording studio, but he wasn't making money. So he's teaching himself additional skills, photography, videography, all online. And believe it or not, I start thinking about what he was doing, it sounded so exciting and I got jealous. I got jealous of my own son. This is the moment my life changed.




Nancy Volpe-Beringer:

I dared to ask myself if I was young again, what would I want to be learning? Hypothetical question. The amazing thing was the answer came immediately to me, immediately, and it was fashion design. Don't ask me where it came... It came immediately. So I'm still not sleeping and I start researching programs. I'm going to see what schools what's available, and then I see interior design.




Nancy Volpe-Beringer:

I'm like, "Well, maybe I should do that at my age." And then I went, "No, Nancy. You're just dreaming." This is practical stay where you're at. This isn't about being impractical, this is about a fantasy if you were young.




Nancy Volpe-Beringer:

Well, I start researching it. By the next week, I was in New York touring two of the top fashion schools and I signed up for a drawing class because I did not know how to illustrate, but I started taking it the day of the one tour. And the last one I took happened to be in my backyard in Philadelphia. But it was always there. And once I answered it, there was no going back.




Gary Schneeberger:

The thing Warwick that sticks out most for me about that episode with Nancy Volpe-Beringer was later on, she talks about where she found her true calling in fashion design. And that was when, on the television show Project Runway, which she finished runner up in her 60s, just a couple years ago, there was a challenge for all the designers to create a clothing look for Paralympians. She tells this remarkable story about how she so wanted to help those folks, but she could tell that the other 10, 15 contestants around her didn't really have a lot of interest and they were kind of like praying like, "Please, no, I don't want to have to do it."




Gary Schneeberger:

She was just chomping at the bit to go do it in almost 120 episodes of the show. I've never gotten the chills, listening to a guest tell a story until Nancy told that story. How did you feel about the whole Nancy Volpe-Beringer episode and that story where her calling came clear in particular?




Warwick Fairfax:

So she has this notion with her fashion. It's not just about building an empire or building the greatest fashion brand on the planet or what have you, it's about serving others. I mean, she truly is living a life of significance. I mean, it's not easy I'm sure to create fashions that are beautiful and practical for those with challenges and those who are different. But she embraces the challenge because it's not about her, it's about serving others. And really, it's in serving others that we get true joy and fulfillment. And Nancy Volpe-Beringer absolutely models that.




Gary Schneeberger:

All right. That was point one of the journey, the road to charting the course to Second-Act Significance. Point two, when you set out on a journey to new significance, follow your heart and lean into your talents. The guest that perhaps best exemplified that to us, I think was Melissa Reaves who was in a really bad spot. She wasn't sure how her life was going to be okay after she got fired from a very well paying job in advertising. But then what she called her inner voice, assured her that she could muster the courage and inspiration to embark on a new career that has become a mission for her.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that career is helping professionals use the power of story to write happy endings for their businesses. She coaches clients in what she calls, making mind movies that add depth and meaning to their communications. And doing so - here's the point lean into your talents, follow your heart - doing so has allowed her to tap into her youthful affinity and excellence in acting, reviving a part of her that she'd allowed to atrophy for a bit in her career choices up until then. Talk a little bit about how you felt listening to Melissa Reaves. I found her incredibly inspiring and she was just so full of life. It was great.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean, I love the fact that Melissa Reaves has this whole thing called story fruition and she just leans into telling stories, but she's just a funny person, an amusing person. She's amazing. I mean, she's always had this desire to act in musical theater in college and she was in Orange County working for a paper there doing, I think, amongst others, digital advertising.




Warwick Fairfax:

She was doing well. But I don't know, maybe she just wasn't the typical boys club as she puts it the typical guys, the Erics and the what have you of this world. She gets fired and yet she's doing well. And yet it seemed like while that was tough, I mean, she had a daughter who I think had so much OCD she was almost bedridden.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

But yet in that instance, she felt like almost like voices in her head, maybe some powers above that were like, "Don't worry you're going to be. You're going to be okay." That pink slip is like yay. And she's like, "No, yay. What do you mean, yay? How can this be a good thing?" But yet, it was. She's very good at selling and stories. One of the key pivot points is she's standing in the hall of Seattle University's business plan competition and they're there in business class, pitching their ideas. It's all very analytical, left brain, numbers and charts and people are falling asleep.




Warwick Fairfax:

She's like, "I can help these students." It was like the angels from heaven were singing. The light bulb goes off above her. This is like a cartoon. "I can do this." And so she-




Gary Schneeberger:

Almost that voice in Albie Pearson's head saying, "Join my team."




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly.




Gary Schneeberger:

Like there was this otherworldly thing.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. And she felt like, "I can help them tell stories." So now she helps investors and other business people tell the story of their business, but by telling compelling stories, personal stories. When you're appealing even for investors, you got to have the numbers and you got to have the stuff that appeals to the mind. But if you don't appeal to the heart, it's going to be a no. People are going to say, "No, you got to do both."




Warwick Fairfax:

She's found her niche with Story Fruition and mind movies in helping business professionals tell their stories. And she's able to lead a good life for herself and a daughter and it was just so inspiring. Just that aha moment in Seattle University. It changed her life. So getting fired ended up being a blessing in some weird way.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. I've heard that expressed in another way, but we'll get to that later about how having a life upending crucible can in fact be a gift. But what I love about Melissa, she was a fun guest. I mean, she told a lot of stories. She has a grand love of life. The stories she tells she's got all kinds of... She would do voices and play different characters. It was fascinating. But in being able to use that acting ability that she teaches her clients, that was when she was able to finally wrap a vision around her giftings, and that she'd long let lie dormant. Here's how she explained it on the show.




Melissa Reaves:

I deep down always thought I would be an entrepreneur. When I was 25 years old I thought, "I have taken Toastmasters. I am an excellent speaker. I am going to teach people Toastmasters, And that's what I'm going to do." I started my little company and I had cards that said, "Speakeasy. That's what I was going to call it." I didn't really realize that it would probably have like a sexual connotation and that wasn't the best branding tick." But I was only 25 and I was going to do this. And I then went, "I am too young and dumb to do this. No, I'm not ready for it."




Melissa Reaves:

But she, that entrepreneurial Melissa was born inside me. So when I was stepping out of the smoldering flames and I started to listen to my higher self, all of a sudden, my second half now is on my terms. It's my life. And if I need to be a little bit selfish to find my joy, then that's what I'm going to do because I want to be the best mom I can be. I don't want to deal with Ryan, Brians and Erics again that are going to make me feel like I'm not smart, because I am smart.




Melissa Reaves:

I am going to attract the clients that I want and I'm going to be bringing them something that they didn't even know that they needed, but now that they do, they are so excited about the work we're doing. I'd walk through most of the day with goosebumps. When I tap a story in one of my clients and we go, "Ooh, there it is." It is so much joy. And even though with being an entrepreneur, you're on a boat ride or a roller coaster. It's going to go up, it's going down. It's going to swirl. You're going to have good months. You're going to have thin months. But it doesn't matter because if you're still believing in what you're doing. Or I'll just talk for myself, when I started believing in what I was doing with joy and with value, how could this not be the best time in my life? I'm 56 years old. I am just starting.




Gary Schneeberger:

I think the joy at the end of that clip, she says, "It's my life. I'm living my life." I think that comes from living a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, but also using those skills. What are those talents? This point too you'll remember is to lean into your talents. Follow your heart and lean into your talents. And that is a textbook case what Melissa did in starting Story Fruition and the success that she's having now that goes beyond success, but to significance for herself and for clients. Right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Yeah, in that moment, when she was fired, which she talks about stepping out of the smoldering flames, it was painful. But she talks about how the entrepreneurial Melissa was born in that moment. She listened to her higher self and really all of her story was leading up to this moment, speaking of Story Fruition.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

She loved telling stories and acting, but she could sell. And so just listening deep down, "How can I use everything that I am, my ability to tell stories, my ability to sell?" And because she was focused on that,and this is very important for listeners to understand when you know who you are and your gifting and your talents, and almost a glimmer of your calling, when she was in Seattle university and saw those business school students try to sell with a very left brain approach, she said, "Aha, this is it. I can do this. I know how to sell, but I know how to tell stories." And so because she'd done that soul work, she was set up to take advantage of that opportunity.




Warwick Fairfax:

So by leaning into your talents, following your heart, when opportunities come, you will be able to seize them, seize the day and go full speed ahead. You got to do the prep work to take advantage of that opportunity, which in her case came at Seattle University.




Gary Schneeberger:

And Melissa's not the only guest who has a story that traffics in some of those beats of follow your heart and follow what you've already come to understand are your talents.




Gary Schneeberger:

John Busacker is another one who falls into that case, carved out a great career in the financial services and leadership development industry, but then had a crucible that was... And I'll let you speak to the crucible since that's your term. I'll let you have that. But he comes out on the other side of that crucible, little bit of a shift to his life, he'll talk about it a bit in the clip, a little bit of a shift to that life and he brings to bear what he was already gifted at and puts it in place for something a little bit different. But what was John's crucible work?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I think he was driving along and he felt like he was having a heart attack. I think he lives in Minnesota at the local Cub Foods, I think it was, and going in there to get his blood pressure measured. He goes home and talks to his wife who happens to be a... Maybe even a cardiac nurse like a emergency room nurse or something and says, "Honey, I think I'm not feeling too well." She tried to say it calmly, but didn't work. His wife-




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. She wasn't buying it. She wasn't buying it.




Warwick Fairfax:

It was like, "Uh-oh, hold the fun. There's a problem here." And it turns out it wasn't a heart attack, he was just maybe having a heart moment. It just somehow what he was doing, which he was doing fine, but he felt like, "Yeah, this is fine, finance and leadership development." But he felt like there's something more. And for him, it was, he found his calling by helping his clients find their true calling and finish well.




Warwick Fairfax:

He's still using his talents, but in something that he feels like is more in line with his high self and that heart attack was a divine tap on your shoulder saying, "John, I need you to do something else here. You have a different mission."




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's really important. I want listeners to make sure they hear this, what we've just talked about Melissa and John, and we'll play John's clip in a minute because I think it's relevant to end the point I'm going to make is that you don't have to, as you move from first act to second act, you don't abandon everything from the first act, right? There are all kinds of things you can gather up, gifts and talents and abilities and those things in your heart that maybe they've been unexpressed and untapped, but they're there.




Gary Schneeberger:

So it's not like you throw out the life with the bath water, you can pivot. Pivot is a good word and Warwick's used it a couple times. Pivot, it's not a complete erasure and rewrite. It's a pivot into something that brings you a little bit more satisfaction and brings others and yourself more significance. But it's interesting what John talks about in this clip here is this idea of finding your way and surviving the uncertainties of life.




Gary Schneeberger:

It's a very important point as you look to navigate from act one to act two. It's important to know that there's going to be some uncertainties in there. Stick with it. You'll do okay. Here's John Busacker.




John Busacker:

We're forced often to let go of the illusion of certainty. We thought we had the answer. We thought we knew. We thought we were so certain about this. And it's like, "Oops. It actually isn't that." In my own experiences of making career changes, for example, or different life experiences, things that I thought I was clear about, maybe I was at the time, but they became less clear in that space. And then I grew into a new understanding, a new learning. And hopefully I say this with a certain amount of trepidation, hopefully that continues. Right? Even though again, that in between space is uncomfortable.




Gary Schneeberger:

What stood out for me in that clip about John in our whole conversation was his emphasis on the importance of transition moments. Great food for thought for anyone who's looking to build significance out of uncertainty, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, when you have those pivot points, as we said for John it was that heart attack he thought he had which is more of an anxiety attack is just to understand what is that? And yes, he was using his talents before, but it was more finance and leadership development. So he's using his talents as he puts it to build hearts.




Gary Schneeberger:

Point three in our discussion of how you move from first act to second act based on the insights and the experience of the guests that we've had on our series, Second-Act Significance is point three is starting small is okay because it's starting. That's the key, starting. I think the guests who stand out the most on this one Warwick are Erik and Emily Orton. I mean, their story starts in a crucible. Erik's dream job of being a playwright and theatrical producer comes to a crashing halt.




Gary Schneeberger:

I'm not laughing at him for it, but it's just like, he's had this dream, had this dream and then it comes to this halt because his show closed after only a few performances. It was closed by his co-producer. And the failure left him fearful and rudderless, but then his curiosity about sailing became his family's passion for sailing.




Gary Schneeberger:

They steered their boat's rudder on a 5,000 mile journey from New York to the Caribbean. And what Erik and Emily discovered on the trip with their five kids sharing the adventure with them was how to turn worry into wonder and the importance of building confidence, credibility, and calm. I loved talking to these two because every time they opened their mouths, things you had to take notes on came out. They're just very, very erudite and quite impactful and practical about how you move from one act to the other.




Gary Schneeberger:

And those are truths that they now teach through their speaking, writing, and coaching. The Ortons were our second guests. What was it about them that struck you?




Warwick Fairfax:

Erik and Emily Orton, they're just amazing people. I love their hearts and their curiosity, and they are a solid team. I remember in the depths of what Erik was going through, as you mentioned... Well, actually, just to unpack it a little bit more, he was part of the Broadway play musical, Wicked. In Broadway, it's hard to be kind of set for life he was. This is going to go on for years, forever maybe and he's part of the touring program. But then to have the courage to do, I think, an off Broadway play and that kind of launches, and while his wife was in labor, his co-producer closes. It had middling reviews, not terrible, but he's out of a job, wiped out.




Gary Schneeberger:

And here is from Erik's own lips and own experience is that pivotal moment. As Warwick said, as we've said, it could not, as this point makes clear, it could not have started smaller.




Erik Orton:

During my dinner break, that's when Emily and I would get on the phone, we would talk as we tried to figure out how to dig ourselves out of this hole that we found ourselves in, and I would describe this to her. She was happy that I would see these boats and that they gave me a sense of peace. And as I described it often enough, I realized that there was a sailing school right downstairs from where I worked and that's where these boats were coming from. She said, "You should go check it out. Maybe you'd want to learn how to sail."




Gary Schneeberger:

The thing about the Ortons, Warwick, that really struck me the most is that the legacy that they're building into their children. We talk a lot at, Beyond The Crucible and in Crucible Leadership about the importance of legacy and bringing their five kids along on that 5,000 mile journey that they took and the lessons that they taught about attacking your fears, trusting in their ability to figure it out, to step forward toward a worthy goal even if you don't have all the boxes checked, right?




Gary Schneeberger:

Go and feel the wind in your hair, even if you don't have all the answers in your head just yet. That's what the Ortons taught their kids. And that's going to pay legacy dividends to their children, to their grandchildren, to their great grandchildren. That's a pivotal important moment about why Second-Act Significance can have such a long tail.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. I mean, one of the things that he said to his wife, Emily, to try and sell this whole... Because she's a very practical person, this whole spend a year going sailing is he said, "Our kids are going to have me 24/7." And for a lot of guys in the working world that doesn't happen, especially at a young age. It's like, "Wow, have my husband 24/7 with my kids? That sounds pretty cool. Have us together? A lot of working women these days obviously have both of us 24/7 with our kids? In this day and age, that never happens."




Warwick Fairfax:

So that was inspiring. And just the life lessons with these kids. One of his kids said is, "Mom and dad, I learned to be comfortable with being uncomfortable." I mean, that is stunning. So the life lessons and now the lessons he's able to help he and Emily teach others is just incredible. But it just started with that small step, looking out the window at those sailboats. It's just an inspiring story.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And again, makes the point, as we said earlier, you're never too old or too young, and your first step is never too minor, never too small. It's never too baby. It's never too infant. It's important. It can get you along the way. And another guest that we had on this show might have been... He was one of my favorite ones because he makes pasta sauce that I got and it was really, really, really good. But that's Chris Schembra. And Chris Schembra, again, speaking of plays, of the theater, he had returned home to New York City in 2015 after producing a successful Broadway play in Italy only to find himself, and these were his words, he found himself when he got home feeling insecure, lonely, disconnected, and unfulfilled.




Gary Schneeberger:

His antidote for that crucible was food and friendship. But before we unpack that a little bit, I want to get to... Because I want Chris to describe just how small and how non-visionary that all started. And here's Chris talking about it when we talked to him on the show.




Chris Schembra:

He said, "How do I recreate the magic that I felt over in Italy? What was it about Italy that La Dolce Vita? Was it how they walked, how they talked, how they dressed, how they honored history, how they loved art?" No, it's how they ate food specifically. It's how they ate food amongst community. So I got to do that.




Chris Schembra:

So here in my kitchen, in New York City, I started playing around with all these different recipes and accidentally created a pasta sauce recipe I thought was a decent recipe. Gary thinks it's pretty, pretty good.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yes, I have to say I ate it a couple days ago when my stepdaughter's boyfriend came over for dinner and it was a huge hit with everyone. We're buying more.




Chris Schembra:

Heck, yeah. I figured I should probably feed it to people and maybe host a dinner party. So July 15th, 2015, two months after we got back from Rome, Italy, I called up my buddy, Tripp Derrick Barnes and I said, "Can I use your backyard? I want to host a dinner party." At the time, it was just 15 friends coming over dinner at 6:30 PM. Each of them brought a bottle of wine. We worked together to create the meal. We served each other. We had great conversations, decent pasta sauce. And you know what, the rest is history.




Gary Schneeberger:

Chris was a very entertaining, very enlivening guest. Was he not?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I love how he talks about talented American guy, goes to Italy, is doing some stuff with plays, and like many of us who've been to Italy, he loves the whole Dolce Vita. I think it means the sweet life, the beautiful life. It just conjures movies of Italian movies of the '60s and the beautiful life, the beautiful people. So he comes back and he's not feeling the La Dolce Vita back in the US, back in New York where he's from.




Warwick Fairfax:

So just that idea of, "Well, let me just have a few friends over at the dinner. It's probably what you do in Italy all the time. We'll talk, we'll have fun." He's got this pasta sauce and out of that, he has this notion of having a meal where you'll have real conversation and just something simple as what one person do you want to tell how grateful you are for them? It's just a simple thing.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And not just grateful because of something great they did, maybe grateful because of something that they let you down on. That's an important point. And some of his best answers he said came out of that second half of that question.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Amazing. He was an amazing guest and just that idea, well, I kind of enjoy being with people and pasta sauce and all, and real conversations and just being grateful for the things good or bad that have happened in your life. But it all came out somewhat of a small step. Let's invite a few friends over for dinner and I've got this pasta sauce. I like to try out. It wasn't this mega vision.




Gary Schneeberger:

No. And it grew, right? It grew into 500,000 relationships have been helped through what he does through what he calls the 747 because that's the time of the dinner start gratitude experience. He was named USA today's gratitude guru. Rolling Stone gave him a big award. I mean it really, really, really took off for him and all it was, it started out as almost self-therapy because he was feeling so lost when he got back from Italy, back to New York, he was feeling lost. So he launched this thing first to help himself and lo and behold, he's helped all these other people.




Gary Schneeberger:

But there's a significant part as we're talking about significance of Chris's story because it shines a light on something that we can't make clear enough and that we called this series Second-Act Significance for a reason, because it's not last act significance. Your second act, as significant as it can become, isn't necessarily, probably in most cases, your last act. Because like your crucible, it does not have to be the end of your story.




Gary Schneeberger:

Second acts change, morph, grow. And sometimes as in Chris's case lead to a third act. And for him, that third act came out when his vision, right, what he started with this simple step grew into this big thing. And as he described it, went from his vision to being his exact, not words, his exact letters, a J-O-B. And that's when things got difficult for him again. He had to launch into a third act where he sort of reconstituted some things about the way that he was doing to get him back to what he loves about building community. And that's what he's walking out now.




Gary Schneeberger:

So that point, I don't think we can make enough. We called it Second-Act Significance because we know it's not last act significance in many, if not most cases.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, no, that's true. I mean, it's easy for your vision to begin to own you and is making all these corporate partnerships and deals. As you're building your second act, you always want to make sure that it's your vision and your dream is serving you and you don't end up getting kind of all good things if you're not careful can almost control you, what have you. So that was a good realization that he needed to get balanced and just make sure that he just recovers the joy of just those initial dinner parties with friends. So that's a good one.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. Three points down, one to go. Here's the last point, the bonus point that's not in our blog. And I'd be lying if I said that this wasn't in part inspired by a historical figure whom I know our host loves. And the fourth point is listen to Churchill who said, "Never give in. Never, never, never, never." Warwick, help us with the context of where that came from.




Warwick Fairfax:

Indeed. Obviously, love Winston Churchill was so many of us do. So really, as listeners might know, he was prime minister in World War II became prime minister, I think in May 1940 when Britain was almost at its lowest ebb. Hitler and Nazi Germany has swept through Europe. They'd just conquered France and the battle of Britain was about to start. And it sure seemed like Britain was going to be next with the onslaught of Nazi Germany.




Warwick Fairfax:

So he gave this speech in parliament and basically, we'll fight them on the beaches, in the villages and the towns, but we are never going to give in. We are never, never, never going to give up. So the point of that story is if you were living in Britain in May 1940, the summer of 1940, things couldn't be possibly much worse. It was Britain against the world. US would come a year and a half later or so in December 1941.




Warwick Fairfax:

But at the time, it was pretty much Britain and its Commonwealth, I suppose, including Australia, Canada, a few other places. But life looked pretty dire, but yet it's like, "We are not giving up here. We're going to defend our island. We are not going to give up."




Warwick Fairfax:

So the fighting spirit of the British people amidst the onslaught of nightly bombings was incredible. So at your lowest ebb, you need to channel your inner Churchill of not to give up.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And that is relevant to this discussion of our wrap-up of the series, Second-Act Significance because some guests had to go through that. Many of you as you pursue your own second act of significance could find yourselves, very likely will find yourself hitting brick walls, hitting some doors you thought should be open that aren't open that require you to never... I'm going to make sure I get it right. Never give in. Never, never, never, never. Four nevers. Never give in. And the guest that really exemplified that for us was Kari Schwear, who had confronted and conquered the drinking she realized was causing a problem in her life.




Gary Schneeberger:

She attended Alcoholics Anonymous for a while, but felt that wasn't her story, that wasn't going to be a long-term solution for her. And then as she's going to describe in this clip right here, she heard a podcast guest talk about something that made crystal clear what her second act of significance should be. Here's Kari.




Kari Schwear:

Right around this time, I heard the term, gray area drinking via a guest that was on a podcast. And when I was walking my dog and I heard this podcast interview, I literally stopped in the middle of the street. It was a warm summer morning, like 7:30 in the morning and I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's what I was." I never identified as an alcoholic. I was a gray area drinker.




Kari Schwear:

So I came home. It was like the fire was just burning inside me. I came home and I researched everything I could on gray area drinking. And there wasn't a lot out there. I thought, "If I can share what gray area drinking is with more people, I'll get them to raise their hand before they get into a deeper addiction."




Gary Schneeberger:

Warwick, the thing I hinted at the top of the show about there's something surprising that I didn't even know, I was talking about Albie Pearson and his rounding the bases after he hit the home run off Whitey Ford and thinking, "Is this all there is?" You may not remember this, but when we interviewed Kari and she was our first guest, so it was a while ago, she recounted that at age seven, she remembers thinking about her life. And these are the exact words that she used, "Is this all there is to life?"




Gary Schneeberger:

She asked herself at age seven and thought that was kind of a weird question, but that was the kind of ennui she was going through even as a child before she then embarked on a journey of soul crushing crucibles. And even as she went through that, she found success in each of her multiple career stops. But that question, she asked herself at seven as she moved forward in life, she had to have asked herself that question over and over and over again until she pivoted into significance.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, it took a while for Kari Schwear. I mean, there's always reasons why she, I guess, didn't define herself as an alcoholic, but as she terms it a gray area drinker. But she'd spend weekends saying, "Well, I'll just drink on the weekends." And weekends became Thursday to Monday and the weekends kept extending. That's what she says is there's always a why. "Well, why was I doing that?"




Warwick Fairfax:

And ultimately, she was dissatisfied with parts of her life, but really she was dissatisfied with herself. And sadly, there was an origin story of that dissatisfaction. She was physically and sexually abused, as a teenager by some older boys. And obviously and incredibly sadly, that is going to damage your self-image. She met this great guy and some of the challenges I think they had early on was because she didn't like herself. It's like, "How could this guy like me?" And that's going to be a challenge in a marriage if you go, "Well, why would somebody like me?"




Warwick Fairfax:

She was, I think, a Porsche dealer, in sales. She was doing fine. But as we just heard, when she just came upon this notion of gray area drinking, it's like, "That's me. And maybe I can help other people, not just people who were drinking, but people who had relationship issues, career issues. Maybe they're living life in the gray. Maybe they're not living their full lives. So all of that pain was leading up to that point in which, "This is my calling. This could be me."




Gary Schneeberger:

And yet, the reason that she's in the section about never, never, never, I don't know if I got enough nevers in there never give in is because when she first stepped out and you heard the enthusiasm, listener, in her voice, when she was telling the story about, "Oh, gray area drinking, that's what I am." She hit a brick wall right off the bat. She went to her church and said, "I want to have a small group in our church here and talk about this gray area drinking."




Gary Schneeberger:

She was told that they weren't going to let her do that because they already had an addiction recovery group. And that sort of set her off initially to be a little upset. But then she talked to a friend who said, "Well, wait a minute. If this is something that truly has been stamped on your heart to do, if this is..." Not her friend's words, but our words in the context of this series, "if this is what's going to lead you to Second-Act Significance, why are you going to let somebody stop you? Go do it. Go start it on your own."




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's when Kari Schwear founded GrayTonic, not just about drinking, but about, as you said, helping people through relationship issues and other things. That's when she went out on her own as a coach, and that is her life of significance now. On purpose, dedicated to serving others and her first step out of the gate, it wasn't like the curtain opened on the second act right away. No, they kept it shut for a while and she had to work hard to get it to open and it did. She started her own thing and look where she is now.




Gary Schneeberger:

So that's a telling story for folks about, "You got to have some perseverance too. You've got what you feel like God, the universe is telling you to do. You've got gifts and passions. You're taking a small step. You're going to do it. You can still hit a roadblock. You can still hit a closed curtain and you have to work to get through that." And she's an exemplary example of that, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. So well said. I mean, sometimes your first baby step, you hit a brick wall. You get hit over the head with a sledge hammer. It's like, "Okay. Not taking any more baby steps. Not getting out of bed. Not leaving the house." Okay, clearly this was a bad idea, but yet she had a lot more guts and determination. She could have been angry at her church, which she probably was a little frustrated, I'm guessing, but she didn't give up. She could have said, "Well, who needs GrayTonic? Makes no sense. There's Alcoholics Anonymous. Maybe people don't identify with gray area drinking."




Warwick Fairfax:

She could have gone in a negative anti-dream, anti-vision spiral in which this proves how there's no market for this. There's no need. I'm just going to give up. But yet she didn't, she persevered and she said, "Look, I really believe in this. I'm going to keep going." Nothing against Alcoholics Anonymous or other recovery programs, but I feel there's a bunch of people that say, "Look, hey, I'm not an alcoholic. I just have a little drinking problem."




Warwick Fairfax:

Whether that's true or not, the point is there are some people who will come to GrayTonic that will never go to Alcoholics Anonymous or some other group. But they will self-identify, "Hey, this is me." So she didn't give up. She pursued her vision, and that's really a model for us. You don't give up when your first step gets crushed the way it did for her.




Gary Schneeberger:

Okay. That's a good lead in, co-host. That's a good lead in. I'm not a math whiz as anybody who knows me knows, but my tally says, We've just reviewed the stories of eight guests, nine counting both of the Ortons. But we're not done just yet. I think to really wrap a bow on the package that has been Second-Act Significance, we have another story to tap into just a bit because it occurs to me, it's the perfect closing note for how we persevere when the first act has been painful and or unfulfilling and press ahead to that life of significance, which you Warwick describe as a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Anybody you know of who's been through a similar situation like that that might have a good story to end this show?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, me. So we talk a lot about crucible moments, but I had a cubicle moment actually.




Gary Schneeberger:

Oh, love it. Great co-hosting again. You're killing me.




Warwick Fairfax:

So most people who've been listening to this podcast for a while know, 150-year-old family business that I grew up in, massive media company that had the newspapers, TV, radio stations, equivalent to the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal. Did the $2.25 billion takeover after Oxford, Harvard Business School, Wall Street. A few years, three years later in 1990 too much debt. Australia got in a recession, company with bankrupt.




Warwick Fairfax:

People have heard that story and how I bounced back. What people haven't heard so much is I had a cubicle moment where eventually, I live in Maryland and got a job at a local aviation services firm doing financial, strategic planning analysis. I was doing well. I wasn't getting paid a whole lot as I've said before. I felt like I was the lowest paid Harvard Business graduate in history, which not so much about the money, which isn't that important to me a bit about it's hurt my ego.




Warwick Fairfax:

So things were okay. I was doing fine. I was literally in a cubicle, the way a lot of folks, a lot of us are. And I had this moment where I had a, "Is this all there is?" And being a person of faith, I was journaling and I felt like, again, as a person of faith, the Lord telling me, "You are playing small. You are not using all the gifts and talents I've given you for me."




Warwick Fairfax:

And it wasn't like it was beneath me. I was getting great performance reviews and I wasn't depressed or whatever, I just felt like, is this all there is? There's got to be more. And so I quit. I didn't have billions in the bank, but I had some amount that I had some wherewithal to be able to find myself, so to speak. And that led me on a quest to becoming an executive coach, to giving that speech in church, which people have heard me talk about in 2008, which people said, "Gosh, your story really helped me."




Warwick Fairfax:

That led me to writing a book that led to Crucible Leadership and this podcast Beyond the Crucible that all started with that cubicle moment, is this all there is? I'm doing financial and strategic planning analysis, but there's more I'm not using all my gifts for the Lord, for the kingdom, for a higher purpose. It wasn't terrible. But it was like, is this all there is moment. And it was, yes, my cubicle moment.




Gary Schneeberger:

And keeping in line with point four of our discussion here, listen to Churchill, "Never give in. Never, never, never, never." I know for a fact, I don't have to say I assume. I know from knowing you that there were times when roadblocks hit as you were moving toward that life of significance, you were moving toward, there's got to be more than that. Is this all there is? And you pushed through them. How did you do that? What gave you the strength, courage, wherewithal to be able to punch through those stoppages that were thrown in front of you.




Warwick Fairfax:

So as I tried to take baby steps to making my vision a reality, which originally back from 2008 on for next several years, in fact, it took 12 years to get the book published in October last year, October 2021. But some of the-




Gary Schneeberger:

And the book is called what?




Warwick Fairfax:

Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

There we go.




Warwick Fairfax:

Some of those early roadblocks was I thought to myself, "Well, I can get this published in Australia." My name at least was pretty big. Fairfax Media is a big deal. Surely I can find somebody interested. And because of the name of Fairfax Media in my name, there were publishers that would talk to me, but some said, "Well, we want more of a salacious tell-all book." And I wasn't going to dis on my family. I'm happy to throw rocks at myself and my own stupidity and mistakes, but not about other people.




Warwick Fairfax:

And then another one said, "Well, this could be good, but if you're in the leadership space, you need to have a following, email following. They didn't say podcast back then, but email, social media following." I was like, "Well, good point. I don't have that." Well, it took years to... I mean, I found a team, but then build up social media email list, and finally was at a point where a major publisher in the US, Morgan James published it. But I could have said, "Oh, well, I guess if Australia is going to say no, what is the chance of the US saying yes, because nobody's heard of me here."




Warwick Fairfax:

So I could have said, "Well, that's it, I'm given up." And why didn't I give up? It's because I felt like if my story can help one other person, it is worth writing. It is worth getting published. And just listening to people after church in 2008 said, "Boy, your story really helped me." It was that vision. It's not about me. It really was a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.




Warwick Fairfax:

I honestly believe at the core of my gut, at the core of my heart, that my story can help people. So I was not going to give up. I was going to persevere because it's not about me, it's about something bigger than me. It's about helping others. And that's what kept me going to keep taking one more baby step, one more baby step, one more no, one more no, to eventually it became a yes from Morgan James, one of the big US publishers. It was the power of the vision and my passion for seeing how that could help others that kept me persevering, kept me moving through the no's.




Gary Schneeberger:

And would you say to the listener directly, do you believe that where you've landed now, and speaking of landed, getting close to where you have to land a plane, would you say to the listener that you have arrived at a place where you feel as though you are leading a life of Second-Act Significance that it was worth it going through what you went through before and then pushing through those roadblocks? Are you living a life of significance today?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I can identify with Nancy Volpe-Beringer and Robert Miller in the sense that I was sort of more towards my late 40s when that speech in church happened in 2008. I got my book published when I guess doing the math, just over 60. I mean, it's easy to feel like, "Gosh, I wish I could have published a book 20 years ago." But it is worth it and I'm just loving this second act and being able to have this podcast, and my book, and speaking where I feel like I can help people not see their worst day as something that defines him, but indeed have a vision that's beyond them that does lead to a joyful and fulfilling life, a life of significance, focused on others dedicated to a higher purpose.




Warwick Fairfax:

So absolutely. I feel so blessed with my wife. It's funny, as we are recording this, it so happens we have our anniversary's on May 20, which is sort of ironic and we're recording this on May 20.




Gary Schneeberger:

It's my anniversary too on May 20.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly.




Gary Schneeberger:

We're both celebrating wedding anniversaries on the day this is being recorded.




Warwick Fairfax:

So this is a day when I think I can speak for both of this, we feel incredibly blessed by our wives and families, and the work that we do. And both leading lives of significance. I mean, I think we can both say we feel blessed and joyful. I'm just so grateful. I love what I'm doing and I do feel absolutely blessed.




Gary Schneeberger:

That is the sound of the plane's landing gear, touching down and everybody's unbuckling their seat belts before they're supposed to, and we are on the ground. But there's a couple things that I have to say before we bid adieu. One is let's review what we've talked about here, folks, so that here's what we've laid out as sort of the four steps toward moving from first act to second act of significance as unpacked in the guests we've had on this eight-part series Second-Act Significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

Step one, it's never too late or too early to pursue a next act in a life that brings you more significance. Number two, when you set out on a journey to new significance, follow your heart and lean into your talents. Number three, starting small is okay because it's starting. And then number four, and this is good advice in general, I think Warwick would say, listen to Churchill, "Never give in. Never, never, never, never." And I'll add another never. I'll take it one step farther than Churchill. Never give in. Because you're always one baby step away from breakthrough. I think that is true.




Gary Schneeberger:

As we wrap, I'm going to ask you to do a few things, listener. First, ponder these three questions. At the end of the blog on this subject at crucibleleadership.com as you look to chart your own course to Second-Act Significance. So these are three questions that you can ponder as you take what we've talked about here, what you've heard in eight episodes of the series as you move forward to try to latch on to that next act of significance for you.




Gary Schneeberger:

Ask yourself this question. Do you have an "is this all there is?" itch you've been wanting to scratch? What's holding you back? Ponder that. Do you have it? And if you have it and you're not acting on it, what's holding you back from doing so? Number two, what are the skills and passions you have that can serve you if you start on the journey to a life of greater significance? What are the skills and passions you have that can serve you if you start on this journey to a life of Second-Act Significance?




Gary Schneeberger:

And then number three, ponder this, what would significance look like for you if you grab hold of it in that next act in your life? Why would that be more rewarding and fulfilling than what you are doing now? So write those things down. If you missed any of them, because I didn't tell you to get a pen in your hand before I talked or I talked too fast, they're at the end of the blog at crucibleleadership.com where you can find those reflection questions.




Gary Schneeberger:

And then the last thing I'm going to leave you with and I can't encourage you enough to re-listen or to listen for the first time to the eight episodes featuring the guests that we've just spoken about. And listen with one ear on what the guests said that applies to your situation and inspire and equip you to stepping on to the on-ramp that will take you to your life of Second-Act Significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

In other words, absorb their stories because they're interesting, hopeful, emotional, moving stories, but listen with one ear to are there things in their stories that even we didn't talk about here that you could pull out and apply to your own situation as you look to move on to your act of Second-Act Significance?




Gary Schneeberger:

We have wrapped this series up. I'm going to give you a little bit, just a teaser. I'm going to defy all of my public relations training to say, "I should tell you what's coming next." I'm just going to tease you with what's coming next and I'm only going to tease you with this. We have a summer series coming up that we think that you're going to like a lot in a couple weeks you'll know more about it. So it's on its way. We're developing it, like getting it all down. Then we're going to start recording just between me and Warwick. It's going to be good stuff. You're going to like it and I think it's going to give you some excellent, excellent takeaways for how to continue to pursue your life of significance and move beyond your crucibles.




Gary Schneeberger:

And speaking of crucibles, until the next time we're together, please remember that we do know that your crucibles are painful. We've been through them. We know that they're painful, but we also know without question, they are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the first step, the first bits of writing in the next act of your story, which can be the best act of your story because when you learn the lessons of your crucible and you pursue something that is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, as you pursue that, where you end up, where that journey takes you, brand new story, best story of your life, because its end place is a life of significance.

Chris Schembra returned home to New York City in 2015 after producing a successful Broadway show in Italy, only to find himself feeling insecure, lonely, disconnected and unfulfilled. His antidote for that crucible?  Food and friendship. What began as a simple gathering of a few friends to eat and share stories once a week became the 7:47 Gratitude Experience – named after the start time of each dinner — which has sparked 500,000 relationships and helped some of the nation’s top companies create cultures of gratitude among their teams.

At the height of that impact, though, Schembra — by then known as USA Today’s Gratitude Guru — hit another crucible: one whose complex emotions he’s had to battle through to embark on a third act of significance.

To learn more about Chris Schembra, visit www.747club.org

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Chris Schembra:

My dinner table became a way of me giving back. For the very first year, July 15th, 2015 to July 15th, 2016, we hosted a dinner party every week once a week for free in our home. It was our way of building community, but it was also a way of giving back. We would meet people on the subway, young kids who didn't have a place to go that night other than eat in their college dorm and they'd come over for dinner and they'd tell these amazing stories.




Gary Schneeberger:

They didn't just tell amazing stories, they developed amazing relationships and helped this week's guest, Chris Schembra, build an amazing movement, all based on gratitude.




Gary Schneeberger:

Hi. I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. In this episode of our series, Second Act Significance, Schembra explains how when he returned home to New York after producing a successful Broadway show in Italy, he found himself feeling insecure, lonely, disconnected, and unfulfilled. His antidote for that crucible, food and friendship. What began as just gathering a few friends together to eat and share stories once a week became the 7:47 gratitude experience, named after the start time of each dinner, which has sparked 500,000 relationships and helped some of the nation's top companies create cultures of gratitude among their teams. At the height of that impact, though, Schembra hit another crucible, one whose complex emotions he's had to battle through to embark on a third act of significance.




Warwick Fairfax:

Before we get into what you do now, one of the things we love doing on Beyond the Crucible is get a bit of the origin story. I mean, you obviously have a love of food and a love of theater. What are some of the origin stories that makes Chris Schembra Chris Schembra? Just some of the themes in your family, parents, grandparents, some of the elements that get to form who you are and what you love.




Chris Schembra:

We had a tight-knit family. We were lovers of life. We were, hopefully, honest people filled with integrity. Most of us have achieved luckily a tremendous amount of success in whatever our craft became. I grew up slowly beside the tides and marshes of Beaufort County. I had a shrimp boat. I was a boat captain. I was a kayak tour guide. Every day after school, I'd walk the beach with my dad and I'd meet all the tourists girls so he could talk to the parents and sell them a home. We had a good thing going. I had a great academic career and athletic achievements, philanthropic endeavors, but one day, I went away to college, got the opportunity to reinvent myself for the first time ever, and it didn't go so good.




Chris Schembra:

I turned to drink and drugs and crashing cars and spending obscene amounts of money and doing all the things one shouldn't do as a young individual. So I was shipped off to rehab at the age of 20 after my sophomore year in college, and I spent a lot of time away. I was in rehab for about 11 and a half months and left rehab, moved back to my home town, started taking tourists on these big adventures around our island via kayak, paddleboard, and boats. Eventually moved down to live on a glacier at the southern tip of the world down in Patagonia, Chile, and then made it back to Hilton Head, outgrew the island, started a few companies, made my way to New York city with $8,000, no job, no college degree, a criminal record, living on my buddy's couch in Brooklyn, and somehow made it work. So that's the long and short of it.




Warwick Fairfax:

I want to transition here. So you became a successful theater producer, and I think you did some stuff with your buddy, Tony Lo Bianco. So talk a bit about your theater time. You went to Italy. I love that whole phrase, dolce vita, which is you would understand more than I do. I don't know if it's the good life, the sweet life. I mean, I think in the '60s they did all these dolce vita movies. It was massive. So talk a bit about the whole-




Chris Schembra:

Spaghetti Western, all those-




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, that, too.




Chris Schembra:

Well, that's when Rome was the place to be. You had Gianni Bozzacchi, and Gina Lollobrigida, and Elizabeth Taylor, and Richard Burton. They were in Rome seemed like every day, Sophia Loren, Tony Lo Bianco. Anyways, I met Tony. I moved to New York City with, as I said, no job, no college degree, one suitcase, living on my buddy's couch in Brooklyn, $8,000 in my pocket. I started roaming around the streets of New York City. I figured I'd figure something out at some point.




Chris Schembra:

I called up my dad. I said, "Dad, I want to be an actor."




Chris Schembra:

Dad was like, "All right. I don't know what that means, but here, talk to my friend Tony. He'll help you out. He'll let you ask him some questions about the business." Tony had come to a charity dinner that my dad had started in honor of the late Thurman Munson, the late great Yankees captain catcher.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yankees catcher.




Chris Schembra:

Yeah. When Thurman Munson passed away in August 2nd, 1979, a bunch of Thurman's teammates and his wife, Diana, and my dad got together and started a dinner raising money for some wonderful organizations. He's met a lot of good people through that dinner through the years. They interview all the top folks in the New York world of sports and entertainment, et cetera. Well, this actor guy, Tony Lo Bianco, kept coming to the dinners. So Tony gave me his phone number.




Chris Schembra:

It's funny. I was supposed to go up and meet him on Friday, September 28th, 2011, and I almost didn't make it. See, I'm a man of my word. Now, don't get me wrong, but as I was biking through the city on my friend Julian's single-speed bike, all sweaty and everything, fresh off the boat from Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, I rolled into a store at 14th Street and 6th Avenue called Urban Outfitters, and for those listeners who are listening to this, Urban Outfitters is quite a swell and swaggy joint, a lot of really popular clothing and furniture, et cetera, and I walked in with my pink polo and my rainbow sandals and my khaki shorts.




Chris Schembra:

I said, "Hey, I'd like to apply for a job."




Chris Schembra:

They said, "Well, there's an onboarding training going on right now. Do you want to step into the onboarding training to see if you like it?"




Chris Schembra:

I'm sitting there and it's eight to 10 people around me and everybody's looking popular as hell and I've got my double pink popped collar. All of a sudden, I see there was a door right here and it had a little glass insert and I saw a woman essentially just poke her head in, opened up the door and hold a piece of paper and asked for me to come out. She gave me my resume back and said, "I think you're a little too overqualified. I wish you all the best of luck. Find your search elsewhere." She fired me before I could even attempt to apply.




Warwick Fairfax:

Jeez!




Chris Schembra:

If I had gotten the job there, I wouldn't have made it up to Tony's. I was on my way to Tony's. So anyways, we met Tony. We talked for eight hours just about life. I mean, he asked me about my tattoos. He asked me about my rehab. He asked me about my depression, my insecurities, my stage fright, whatever. The first thing he did was he gave me a rock and he said, "Look," not this rock, but this isn't even a rock, but he said, "Look at this rock. How do you think this rock got to my apartment? How old do you think this rock is? What do you think this rock has seen in its life? Where do you think it's traveled? Where do you think it's been? What do you think it's made out of?" A lot of these curious questions, those kind of things.




Chris Schembra:

By the end of it, he said, "What are you doing for money?"




Chris Schembra:

I said, "Nothing."




Chris Schembra:

He said, "What are you doing next week?"




Chris Schembra:

I said, "Nothing."




Chris Schembra:

He said, "Why don't you come hang out?"




Chris Schembra:

So we just started hanging out. I started cleaning out his drawers and driving him to charity galas and calling people in his phone book to get their email addresses, and all of a sudden, five years had gone by and we ended up doing a lot of really neat things together. We would spend probably 10 to 12 hours a day, six days a week, five years straight. You get to know someone pretty damn well. We had, still have, a lot of love, a lot of empathy, a lot of wisdom. He taught me how to walk, talk, negotiate, and think like a Brooklyn, New Yorker. I learned the language of life from that man. I was raised a Schembra, but I was molded for five years how to get what I want from the most powerful people on earth. I learned it from him.




Gary Schneeberger:

It's interesting to note, Chris, that Tony Lo Bianco and you are not the same age or even in the same generation, right?




Chris Schembra:

Yeah, for all the listeners. Yeah.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. I mean, for people who don't know who Tony Lo Bianco, one of his first movies was the French Connection in 1971. He starred as a mob boss with Stallone in the '70s in a movie called Fist. So he's somewhat older than you. So that relationship is unique in that sense, right?




Chris Schembra:

He was 74. I was 24. He had never had a son. I was in the market for a new best friend and second father. Boy, we met some really neat people through the years. We put on some really neat productions. We had some great fights. We had some great arguments. We were in competition every night to see who could get the most business cards. I was the token young kid who would go dance with all his friends' wives at the charity galas every night because his friends were just occupied by Tony. It was an amazing relationship.




Warwick Fairfax:

So you did theater productions, you went to Italy and produced some plays there. That must have been fun. I mean, that must have been a lot.




Chris Schembra:

Yeah, that was amazing. What happened was we were going over to Italy to put on this one-man show we used to do about Fiorello La Guardia. Tony was the actor, director, writer, producer. I was the other producer. So my role was to just make all the pieces move. We get to Italy. I'm staying in one place. He's staying in another place. I've got a driver for the week, and the driver was the father, the driver is the normal driver of the great Gianni Bozzacchi, and the driver's daughter was the assistant of Gianni Bozzacchi.




Chris Schembra:

I said, "Oh, how does Vanessa," or Alessandra, I forget her name now, "how does she like working for Gianni? She's worked there for a long time."




Chris Schembra:

He said, "Well, she loves the work that they do, but at the end of the day, she's just spending a lot of time helping someone else live out their dream."




Chris Schembra:

I said, "Well, that's an interesting thing to say about your daughter." By the way, we were speaking in Italian at the time because I made sure to become fluent in Italian so I didn't get screwed over by the Italian unions by the time I got over there and the stage workers. So anyways, it was wonderful. I believe it was on May 17th, 2015 and it just woke me up, man. I just sat there and I was like, "My God, I love Tony, but am I just spending all day helping him live out his dream? What's my dream?," Right?




Chris Schembra:

I got back to New York City, and it really threw me for a loop. I mean, I was miserable, overwhelmed, insecure, cautious, anxious, nervous. I just broken up with a girlfriend. I was lonely as frick. Then Tony got married to Elise, which is the best thing that ever happened, but I was sitting there and I was like, "What do I do now?" I said, "How do I recreate the magic that I felt over in Italy? What was it about Italy that la dolce vita? Was it that how they walked, how they talked, how they dressed, how they honored history, how they loved art? No. It's how they ate food, specifically. It's how they ate food amongst community.




Chris Schembra:

I said, "I got to do that." So here in my kitchen in New York City, I started playing around with all these different recipes and accidentally created a pasta sauce recipe. I thought it was a decent recipe. Gary thinks it's pretty, pretty good.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yes. I have to say I ate it a couple days ago when my stepdaughter's boyfriend came over for dinner and it was a huge hit with everyone. We're buying more.




Chris Schembra:

Heck yeah, heck yeah. I figured I should probably feed it to people and maybe host a dinner party. So July 15th, 2015, two months after we got back from Rome, Italy, I called up my buddy Tripp Derek Barnes, and I said, "Can I use your backyard? I want to host a dinner party." At the time, it was just 15 friends coming over for dinner at 6:30 PM. Each of them brought a bottle of wine. We worked together to create the meal. We served each other. We had great conversations, decent pasta sauce. You know what? The rest is history. It took me about six months of doing these dinners for then by December of 2015 to call up Tony and say, "You know what? We've had a good run. I think it's time to part ways," and off we went. That was it.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, that's amazing. I mean, I want listeners to hear what you're saying is that you and Tony were having a good life doing theater, but just that one comment over in Italy is that somebody's daughter is just helping somebody else live their dream. You never want to be that person. I mean, I in my own way can relate in that my whole family were helping my great, great grandfather, John Fairfax, live his dream. The thing about dreams is sometimes they're wonderful dreams. Not all dreams are bad. In my case, having a newspaper that would be independent, it's original masthead back in the 1830s, 1840s was, "May whigs call me tori, tories call me whig," which means, "May liberals call me conservative, conservatives call me liberal."




Warwick Fairfax:

Having an independent paper, I mean, we need that probably now more than ever when everybody goes to the left or the right, everybody's polarized and hangs out with friends who agree with them. We need a little bit more community and diversity rather than polarizations.




Warwick Fairfax:

So that's a great vision, but that wasn't my vision. I didn't want to run a big paper. I'm more a reflective advisor, writer. So all that to say is I'm sure Tony's vision, what he does is not wrong. It's great, but as Chris Schembra you're thinking, "Tony's a good guy, but what do I want to do with my life? Don't I have a God-given right, if you will, to chart my own path?"




Warwick Fairfax:

I think everybody listening, you can respect your parents, but respecting your parents doesn't mean that you have to live their dreams or your friends' dreams or your teacher's or your mentor's. So I think that's so important. So here you love la dolce vita, and part of the 10 in life, you love food, but yet, as you're thinking about the whole sense of community, I mean, as you look back, do you feel like that was part of living the Schembra heritage, family, charitable works? Maybe you did it knowingly, but that's part of being what it means to be a Schembra, right? Just that sense of community.




Chris Schembra:

Yeah. It's great point. I'll often credit that I learned how to cook Italian food and I learned how to host a dinner party from Tony that I had watched. He fed presidents, kings, queens, politicians, actors for all the five years we were together. He served the biggest people in the world around his dinner table. They would squeeze into his massive upper West side apartment by the dozens just to line up to eat his food and sit on an armchair. It was the greatest thing in the world. They would pay tens of thousands of dollars at charity auction to come eat at his dinner table.




Chris Schembra:

I said, "My God, there's something to that," but the truth is, Warwick, what you were just talking about is I learned it growing up around the Schembra family. I mean, my mom and dad threw the best dinner parties and parties you could ever imagine. People would fly in from all over the world to come to their themed parties or their Christmas this or their dinners that, and their festival trees this.




Chris Schembra:

My dinner table became a way of me giving back. For the very first year, July 15th, 2015 to July 15th 2016, we hosted a dinner party every week once a week for free in our home. It was our way of building community, but it was also a way of giving back. We would meet people on the subway, young kids who didn't have a place to go that night other than eat in their college dorm and they'd come over for dinner and they'd tell these amazing stories.




Chris Schembra:

It was our way of building church, right? I grew up in the Catholic faith. My dad is a very God man. My buddy, Dave Lindsay, always said, "You built your church through community," and that's it. So it was all part of that Schembra thing.




Gary Schneeberger:

I think one of the most interesting things about the way that you built that community is you make a point of pointing out that you invited people, and you just mentioned it, right? There was someone that you saw in a subway. You invited people from different zip codes of your life, right? You didn't invite here's 15 people I know or 15 couples I know who all enjoy the same movies I do or here's ... You invited people from a wide swath and that who weren't already in community and then they built community around your table.




Chris Schembra:

Yeah. It's interesting. There was a strategy behind that. For all the listeners, we'll put in the show notes below, there's a great article in the Harvard Business Review. It came out in about 2015 written by Brian Uzzi and Shannon Dunlap titled How To Build Your Network. What they talk about, and I'll tell the story, is it's essentially the story of Paul Revere that gets back to this diversity of network. I have a question for the listeners and I have a question for the two of you. Do you know who the man William Dawes is?




Gary Schneeberger:

I do not.




Chris Schembra:

Yeah, nobody does, nobody does, but here's the truth. On the midnight ride of Paul Revere that we're all familiar with, Paul Revere wasn't alone. There were two guys, Paul Revere and William Dawes. One went one way, the other went the other way, the exact same message, "The war is coming. The British are coming." The difference was one guy knocked on, strategically knocked on doors of people who didn't know each other. So therefore, his message spread in a very diverse, non-incestuous message or way. The other guy accidentally knocked on doors of people who knew each other, and so his message was only spread in a very incestuous, non-diverse way. Can you guess whose strategy was which why we only know one of those guys' names? Paul Revere, non-incestuous, super diverse.




Chris Schembra:

So I am a fan. See, true belonging doesn't occur when you show up in a room full of people filled with other people who believe in the exact same things you believe in. That's not belonging. True belonging happens when you show up in a room full of people who believe the polar opposite of what you believe in but you can authentically show up as you are.




Chris Schembra:

I wanted to create that space. It wasn't a networking group. A networking group is filled with people who can serve each other. A group that we were putting together is a diverse group of people who can learn from each other. We had a simple rule. First time you come, you come alone. The second time you come, you bring a friend. After that, you're eligible to nominate someone.




Chris Schembra:

So people, they had to go through me to show up and everything, but someone would show up and I'd hug them at the door, and they'd cry around my dinner table, and I'd Google them the next day and I'm like, "Holy crap! That was that guy? Yes," and that meant the world to us is that people could just show up, not worried about who they were, and they just got put to work, doing the dishes, making the pasta, making the peanut butter, and then we all cried together all on one equal plane. It was perfect.




Warwick Fairfax:

What you're sharing, Chris, is so profound because you talked earlier about the polarization. You're bringing people who are diverse groups, I'm sure, race, gender, but they're also diverse in their thinking and personalities and political views. You're right. There's a tremendous sense of belonging, a sense of unity when you get together with somebody so different than you and, "Hey, we're all human. We all have joys and sorrows, tragedies, revelations." When you can have unity on that basis, that's a sense of belonging that is in this day and age is almost impossible to find. It's this fountain of youth, nirvana, heaven, whatever you want to call. It's this space that nobody's ever experienced. You're creating this incredible space, if you will.




Chris Schembra:

Well, you know what's funny is that I didn't make this shit up. This is actually what human evolution is. The original human beings, A, so I could go off on a lot of tangents, but I'm just trying to return us back to the origins of humanity, right? We're born to be tribal. We're born to find a common meaning and purpose of fighting against something together, right? If you look at the ancient humans, suffering was the norm. You needed to rely on each other or else you got eaten or you died. If you didn't know how to get along, if you didn't know how to pull your weight, you got kicked to the curb out of the tribe and you were dead within a day.




Chris Schembra:

Happiness or the pursuit of happiness, that's a new invention in the grand scheme of human history, right? So when people want to put on this fake filter, they want to pretend their life is perfect, and they want to chase this happiness, and they want to hack that metaphor, do whatever they want to do with the gurus, that's all bullshit, and that's not when you connect with people. You don't connect when life is perfect. You only connect down in the trenches.




Chris Schembra:

I mean, Sebastian Junger, the author of The Perfect Storm, War, Tribe, a friend of mine here in the New York City, he calls it trauma bonds. That's the shit you look for, shared meaning and connection and purpose, and when you can connect in that trough, that down energy, whoa, man, lifelong bonds.




Gary Schneeberger:

I'm sure Warwick's going to get into this, some of the activities that took place during the dinners, but one of the things I want to make sure listeners understand here is what you've just described about bonding over tough times, negative experiences. You were in that place, too. You said that when you got back from Italy, got back to your small apartment in New York City, you had four emotions going on in you. You were a man who was feeling insecure, lonely, disconnected, and unfulfilled.




Gary Schneeberger:

So what we find all the time on the show is as you step out to serve others, live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, which is what you were doing, that brought some sunshine to you as well. Helping others is the best way to help yourself, and you discovered that. You built community for yourself as you built community for others, correct?




Chris Schembra:

Yeah. I mean, it goes back to the ancient Roman, Latin, Greek definitions of happiness came in two forms. There was hedonism, which is happiness that's derived from superficial pleasures and acquiring things and all that kind of stuff, and then there's you eudaimonic happiness, which is the happiness that's derived by being in the service of others, and that's the happiness, if I want to call it if I'm chasing happiness or whatever, that's what I want to chase is being in the service of others.




Warwick Fairfax:

Now, what you're saying is profoundly true. We call that second type of happiness, which is in incredible thought, just the origin of it that you described, Chris, is a life of significance because life on purpose dedicated to serving others. As Gary said, I want to get into a bit just so that all the listeners will know. Talk a bit about that methodology. You talk about, I think, it's the 7:47 Club named after, as far as I know, at 7:47 on that day in July 15th, 2015 when the pasta's on the pot and then 8:00 it's served.




Warwick Fairfax:

So you have people, whether they be rich or poor, in the kitchen chopping stuff and putting stuff in pots. They're actually cleaning up. They're not just being served, they're serving, but yet, you set it up with a very intentional question that's fascinating. What's that question that it says that part of the secret sauce or that secret spice that makes that meal more than a meal? What's that secret ingredient, that question that you ask people to answer and it's part of that wonderful evening?




Chris Schembra:

Yeah. The formula for that secret sauce for human connection we always thought was the pasta sauce and we always thought that's what they kept coming back for, and then over time I realized that this one question kept almost guaranteeing a certain depth, and it's a very simple question that falls and Aristotle's got something he calls the golden mean, which is the pendulum between courage and something that doesn't require courage. This question is perfect in that It's not too hard and it's not too easy, and it gives people a chance to share an amazing story. We first asked the question on July 15th, 2015, then we got away from the question, and then we came back to the question, "If you could give credit or thanks to one person in your life that you don't give enough credit or thanks to that you've never thought to thank, who would that be?"




Chris Schembra:

For all our listeners out there, I want you to think about this for a sec. I don't give a shit what you're grateful for. Put that out of your mind. I want you to go deep. Who have you never thought to thank? Now, what's popping up for you? Is it a grandmother that drove you to soccer practice? Is it a third grade teacher that gave you a ukulele? Is it your wife who's sitting next to you in the car right now? Is it an ex-bad boss? Is it a mean ex-girlfriend? Is that high school bully?




Chris Schembra:

See, that question elicits two different types of responses. You can either use this question to tell a story of a positive person who's impacted your life or you can use this question to tell a story about a negative person that's impacted your life in a positive way. Regardless of where they choose, positive or negative, the stories go deep, but the deepest is always when they choose the negative.




Chris Schembra:

We saw people sharing amazing stories of overcoming fear, regret, adversity, failure, trauma, whatever it may be by answering this question. We'd hear stories like, "I'd like to thank my mean ex-boss. They always told me I couldn't do something and it made me quit that job, find a new one, and realized that something is actually my best asset. Something that once held me back in a previous role is actually the thing that will now create significance."




Chris Schembra:

We heard those kind of stories, and the people came alive. So pretty soon we realized, "God, the dinner table is not the secret. This gratitude question is the secret. The concepts that surrounded gratitude as a whole were the secret, and that's what we should focus in on."




Chris Schembra:

If you looked at my life in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, all I was to people was a dinner party host. Oh, I was really good at it. I've helped people make tens of millions in net new revenue by entertaining their clients around the dinner table. That's what I did, but it was so limiting, right? It was 18 to a couple hundred people at a time, and then the pandemic hit. I had just, at the time, February of 2020, just returned home from a big trip to Italy, just like in 2015.




Chris Schembra:

Again, I found myself lonely, unfulfilled, disconnected, insecure. I was in the middle of a raging pandemic. They took the dinner table away from me. We had to start all over again. So we pivoted to virtual, and it's been the best thing that's ever happened to us. Adversity is a gift. It makes us stronger. It shows us what were made out of.




Chris Schembra:

A researcher out of Eastern Washington University, Philip Watkins, did a wonderful study of some fine folks out there and he called the study The Grateful Processing of Unpleasant Memories. He found that when bad things happen to you in life, you can do one of three things to it. You can either pretend like it never existed and just store it away in the city storehouses or, two, you could recollect that memory and talk about it or write it down and de-stigmatize the negative emotion or, three, you can do those things, you can find the positive benefit in it, you can give gratitude to it, you can make it part of your story, which literally rewires the brain. It broadens and builds the brain's thought action repertoire that's needed for hope, pride, optimism, self-confidence, self-efficacy.




Chris Schembra:

There's something that we call the perceived benefits list. If you can look at a negative autobiographical experience from your past and you can see that it teach you empathy, family closeness, material gain life, shifting, et cetera, et cetera. If you can say yes to any one of those things, well, then there was a positive benefit. Let's give gratitude to it. Tell that story.




Warwick Fairfax:

Amen, and that leads to hope and healing. So I want to pivot to your most recent thoughts because all this led to your book, Gratitude and Pasta and 7:47 Gratitude Experience. You have, I think somewhere, I think I saw maybe you have 500,000 relationships or something staggering. I mean, you're doing well, but you're doing so much good, so much healing and bonding and diverse people of opinions getting together. It would seem like how could life possibly be any better. How could anybody be as joy-filled and happy and the good version of that word happy than Chris Schembra? I mean, Chris should be the most happiest person on the planet in that sense. Look at the good he's doing, but yet, it seemed like there was a new crucible. So talk about where it felt like it was just a job. Talk about this most recent crucible how somehow some of the joy maybe eroded a bit. So what happened?




Chris Schembra:

It was ingratitude at its finest. I had all these great things going on, but as my buddy Scotty The Body once said, "I just couldn't see the clearing through the forest." See what would happen, Warwick, is that because my perspective was so wrong, I actually convinced myself that every piece of accolade or compliment that I would receive and, oh, by the way, they come in probably 50 a day, every accolade I received, if they only knew who I really was, they'd think I was a monster. They'd think I was the worst human on the planet.




Chris Schembra:

What it all stemmed down to was I just didn't actually appreciate much, and what that felt like was I had all this great things on the outside, I was screaming, "imposter, monster" on the inside. Yeah, that wasn't good. Somewhere along the way, 7:47 went from the time of night on July 15th, 2015 where I fell in love, where something saved my life to then it just became a brand. Then it just became a J-O-B, and the minute I turned my passion into profit, it lost its impact on me.




Warwick Fairfax:

One of the things I think listeners need to hear what Chris is saying because I think you're talking a lot about, which we talk a lot about is identity. Who am I? You could get accolades from everybody. I mean, here you are making people so grateful and yet somehow you felt a fraud in your words, a monster, and you could get a thousand emails today saying, "Chris, you changed my life," and it wouldn't matter. It could be a million a day. It wouldn't matter. It's like, "Yeah, but if they only knew me. I'm a fraud and are my motives pure?" I mean, none of us are pure. We all have mixed motives. None of us are perfect, but I guess from my perspective, I'm a person of faith and from my faith framework, I'm loved because God loves me unconditionally, and there's nothing I can do to change that. We're all screw ups. We're all going to do dumb things and bad things, and whether you believe in faith or some other set of values, your self-worth has to come from inside, whether it's God, faith, values, family, you've got to feel like, "I am worth something because the universe, God, my family loves me and they know who I am."




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, obviously, if you believe in an eternal God, God knows everything that we've ever thought or did. Those of us who have families, I mean, your family knows who you are, people you've grown up with your whole life. It's not like, "Oh, you don't know who I am."




Warwick Fairfax:

They're like, "No, Chris, we know exactly who you are, the good, the bad, the ugly." You're not fooling them. You're not fooling people who know you well, but yet they love you anyway, right? So somehow we've got to get to a point where we can solve the identity equation, and whether you sell a million books or two, whether you go onto fantastic success or it all falls tomorrow, your identity is not wrapped up in what other people say. It's wrapped up in the internal. That's the big equation we've all got to solve. Does any of that make sense?




Chris Schembra:

Oh, everything. Yeah. It's one of the coolest things that happened to me in my crucible moment. So to describe my crucible moment to the listeners, I was on a call on Thursday, December 30th, 2021. I was on a call with a client at 4:00 PM. The call was supposed to run from 4:00 to 5:00 PM. At 4:30 PM, she looked at me, Lisa Penn looked at me and said, "You don't look so good. We should probably end this meeting. I've never seen you look like this. You normally have such high spirits." I, whatever, I felt a little tired, but she's a very intuitive person. She knew something was up. So we hung up the call.




Chris Schembra:

My girlfriend and I went out to dinner to celebrate buying a new home, her getting a new job. We accidentally drank too much, and I did something or said something that was misinterpreted. The intentions were misinterpreted. So it made me feel or convinced myself, "I'm a piece of shit monster. How could I end such a beautiful night by doing something so unpure?" We got home. I self-loath to the most dramatic extreme, and then I went into the kitchen, pulled out my favorite kitchen knife, and went slash. Blood everywhere. Going in for round two, she calls my mom. My mom talks me down off the ledge. We wrapped up the bandage. I get a little food in my system.




Warwick Fairfax:

You were slashing yourself.




Chris Schembra:

Yeah. Big old cut across the arm. You know the drill. We went to bed. We woke up the next morning. She hopped on a flight to Detroit to see her dad who had indirectly just had a heart attack a couple days prior, but she was gone for six days. I just sat in that room and cried and got to know myself, and it was phenomenal. I think that was the most important part of my crucible moment was that I didn't even let anybody know what I had done except Sean and Leslie and Alec and John and Scott and Caitlin and Jonathan and Cass and a few other people, but I had just sat in my stuff and gotten to know me. Why did I do this?




Chris Schembra:

The most important part was that I found I didn't want to kill myself. I just wanted to scream out and feel a little pain. Okay. That's a very important to know, am I suicidal or am I non-suicidal? Luckily, I fell in the non-suicidal self-injury path and then I just got to listen and cry and feel what came out. I just avoided getting to know myself for so long. I could put things on my calendar. I could call myself busy. I could really avoid hard conversations with myself and I'd done that so successfully, but that was my reckoning.




Warwick Fairfax:

So how did you get to know yourself? I mean, your inner soul is saying "Chris, I'm hurting, I'm frustrated, I'm angry. You need to know me. Let me out. You need to get in touch with me." How did you get through that? How did you feel like you got to know yourself and deal with that? How did you get out of that hole, so to speak? I think you used that expression off air before, that pit. How did you get through that?




Chris Schembra:

A, I made it part of my story and then, B, I got really good at saying no, and I became grateful for it. I have a way of, yeah, very quickly processing, at least on paper, very quickly processing and putting a narrative around something. That moment gave me the introduction to my new book. So it was the perfect thing I needed. So then I didn't see it as a moment of pain. I saw it as a moment of awakening and opportunity and a great gift that I could share with others.




Chris Schembra:

Part of getting out of my crucible moment was to say no to taking on other people's trauma that connected with my story. I put together a video. I was on the phone with my best friend Scotty The Body, and when he said that you couldn't see the clearing through the forest thing, you were just overwhelmed with so much opportunity, I immediately hung up and I recorded a video. This video was a 13-minute video of me telling people what I had done and some of the things that I felt why I did it. I shared it online. I don't know, we got 58,000 followers on LinkedIn. We got tons of other people on Facebook and Instagram and email. Boy, they wrote back and a lot of them asked for my time so that they could share their story.




Chris Schembra:

I said, "No. I love you, but no. I'll listen to your story at some point, but I got to create space for me." So it really involved me setting massive boundaries, and that's the only way that I could get through my crucible moment. I mean, I read Oliver Burkeman's book, Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals. It's all about clearing space and setting priorities. For the first time in a really long time, my priority became me. That was new.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, and setting boundaries. It's like you might have team members that say, "Hey, Chris, we could go from 500,000 to a million to two million to a billion. We could do virtual things a thousand times a day. We could reach millions. We could, we could, we could," and you're just like, "Okay. So what? Maybe I don't want to. Maybe there's a limit."




Chris Schembra:

So the craziest thing is I asked a friend of mine to introduce me to an executive coach. Well, she offered to introduce me to her ex-husband, who's a wonderful executive coach. We spent the entire onboarding call, introductory call talking about numbers and scale and how many millions we could make per year and how many events and how much we could charge. By the end of it, I got so jazzed up because he's a really good executive coach, but I got so jazzed up. That was two days before my non-suicidal self-injury. I don't see it as an accident that I was so overwhelmed with opportunity. So many people came to me saying, "We could scale this and we could do this. We could do this," and I was just like, "Shut up. When will I prove that I've done enough?"




Warwick Fairfax:

The answer is never.




Chris Schembra:

Never.




Warwick Fairfax:

Never. I asked my team this about myself. It's like, "Well, what does Warwick want?" We had a meeting recently and that was the very first question, "What do I want?" because I can get into this duty on a country thing, a US military thing, which I've never served, but it's like I can get on the treadmill of, "Okay. This is what we need to do to build the brand and get to the next level, but what do I want?" That's the starting point, which I think obviously you're grappling with. So as we begin to-




Chris Schembra:

It's so funny because, sorry.




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh, please.




Chris Schembra:

It's so funny because the line that, and I don't tell the part of the Italy story about the driver and the daughter very often at all, but the line about me living out someone else's dream. By the time I got to December 2021, I was living out other people's dreams. I was using my greatest gifts. I was monetizing the hell out of what I do best, but I was doing it at the scale of other people's dreams, what what other people wanted out of my talent.




Gary Schneeberger:

That is a great point to make as we level set what we're talking about. This is after all an episode of Beyond The Crucible baked into a series called Second Act Significance, and folks would look at your story, Chris, they'd see the book, they'd see that you went from feeling isolated and lonely to building community, to finding hope in community and they'd think, "Hey, he arrived at second act significance," and in some ways from the outside looking in, that happened. Even from yourself, there was a period of time, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, where you felt that you had achieved second act significance, but then it fell apart as you've described. What I love about this episode being the final guest episode of our series is that the second act doesn't have to be the last act. In other words, you're on your third act now.




Chris Schembra:

I'm still only 34 years old. I can't wait to see what happens when I turn 35.




Gary Schneeberger:

You are on the road to third act significance right now because you've learned some lessons from your second act significance, right?




Chris Schembra:

Well, here's the funniest thing. Here's the funniest thing about going from second act to third act. I had the non-suicidal self-injury episode in December. I learned all the things that I needed to learn since, and here's accidentally what happened. From a business standpoint, record profit. We tripled our prices. I get to work one-third the amount of time for even more stuff, and when I say stuff, I make money so I can give it away. We have tonned it because I just finally reconnected with my myself, but what's even cooler is my third act significance looks like me bringing more joy into my life.




Chris Schembra:

Now, I had a great call in January of 2022. My girlfriend's going out to get her toenails done or haircut done. "Get it short, honey." I love it when it's short and spunky. Anyways, my third act significance, I was on the call after my non-suicidal self-injury with a guy that I should probably hire as my executive coach, Kyle from Cultivate Advisors, wonderful firm.




Chris Schembra:

He said, "What are you going to do to bring more joy into your life in 2022?" I had my list all prepared. I was like, "Meditation, exercise, surfing, yoga, reading, ding, ding, ding."




Chris Schembra:

He said, "What do all those things have in common?"




Chris Schembra:

I said, "I don't know. They bring me joy."




Chris Schembra:

He said, "Bullshit. They're all individual activities. What's the stuff that saved your life?"




Chris Schembra:

I said, "Co-creating cool, playful moments with people."




Chris Schembra:

He said, "Why isn't that on your list? Why not? What are those things?"




Chris Schembra:

I said ...




Chris Schembra:

So third act significance is a lot of me co-creating things with people, and playing around, and getting back to my roots, and playing around the dinner table, and inventing new recipes and maybe doing acting classes, I don't know, that kind of stuff, that playful, joyful, youthful stuff.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's a good time for us to, I normally say on the show the captain's turned on the fast and seat belt sign, but come on, I'm talking to a creator of food, a creator of pasta sauce, a creator of dinners that focus on pasta and author of a book called Gratitude and Pasta. So I'm just going to say the water's boiling. We got to throw the pasta in the pot soon, but not yet.




Chris Schembra:

Deal.




Gary Schneeberger:

Before we do, Chris, I would be remiss as we wind down here and get prepared for the meal as it were, I'd be remiss if I didn't give you the chance to tell listeners how they can find out more about you, about 7:47, and about your new book. When's that coming?




Chris Schembra:

Yeah. The new book launches June 21st of 2022. We've got a wonderful, wonderful team, a wonderful launch community. So if people want to be a part of the launch community, there's a variety of ways of getting involved. Just email me, chris@747club.org and I'll loop in whatever part of my team I need to loop in, depending on what you're emailing about. Look, if there was anything that I said here today that you agree with, I hope you go out and act on it. Go out there and serve others in this way, but serve them with sacrifice and significance as Warwick talks about.




Chris Schembra:

I got lucky is that I had a lot of people that served me throughout my life. So I was able to build a life in service of others. Now, the people listening, what often happens in the gratitude space is that people don't go out and show their gratitude to others because of two reasons. One, we completely underestimate the impact that it'll have on the recipient, and we completely overestimate the perceived feelings of awkwardness that it's going to feel to give it in the first place.




Chris Schembra:

So when I say this, it's that go out and give gratitude to people. Go out and be of service to people because it's going to make them feel good and it's going to make you feel good. You're going to get caught up in what that looks like or how you're going to do that, but always stay connected to the why and the intention behind the gift, the service, the connection, the community, whatever it is.




Chris Schembra:

Take care of yourself. It's a lonely world out there. Seek connection with people that you'll be able to find some genuine moments of belonging. If we can provide that, please reach out. Love to have a chat with you, but yeah, look forward to getting to know all of y'all soon. I wish I had something that I could invite you to, but I've just become such a B2B corporate whore, and I don't get to host these free things for my community anymore, but certainly reach out and we'll try to invite you for free to something that we're doing in the upcoming moment so that you can get some good benefits of the community.




Gary Schneeberger:

All right, Warwick. I've put the pasta in the colander. We're going to serve it up here, but you get the last question before we go eat. So take it away.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, Chris, again, thank you so much for being here. I just love your story and your journey and just your authenticity and vulnerability. It's just really inspiring. I mean, as we close just with this third act and just this sense of is it just a job, I'm on this treadmill or bigger and bigger and bigger., and what does Chris Schembra want, do you feel like you have a greater sense of peace, a greater sense of, "Look, maybe I'm a screw up in some ways, but aren't we all?" Do you feel like you have a greater sense of peace and maybe self-acceptance, which I don't know that we ever get to 100% self-acceptance and peace, but do you feel like you're making progress on the journey to say, "Look, I'm not perfect, but I'm trying to do well by doing good. You know what? I'm not perfect, but that's okay"? Does that make some sense?




Chris Schembra:

I would say I have a little bit of progress, but I never don't want to be that miserable, lonely, unfulfilled, disconnected person because the minute that I stop being that is the minute other people will stop being able to authentically connect, right? You have to be going through the emotion to reciprocate the emotion with others. So I'm grateful for my dark times. I'm grateful for my imperfections and loneliness. It's what inspires the creativity. It's what inspires my curiosity. It's what drives my girlfriend crazy, but I'd rather know that as my truth than never get to know my truth or pretend like I've figured it out. So I don't know how to measure progress. I just know I never want to be that person who's got it figured out then that wouldn't be the Schembra way.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough, listener, to know the last words have been spoken on the subject, and Chris Schembra just spoke them. So thank you, listeners, for spending this time with us on the final guest episode of our series, Second Act Significance, which ends with a bonus, right? Ends with Chris Schembra's third act of significance, which I think is a great place to land the plane as I often say.




Gary Schneeberger:

Next week, Warwick and I are going to go through all the episodes we've had, all eight episodes and pull out some key learnings about how to pursue and enjoy and really make the most of your second act significance. So until the next time we're together, please remember that your crucible experiences are indeed difficult. We know that, Chris knows that, Warwick knows that, but good news, they're not the end of your story. In fact, when you learn the lessons of them, when you recognize that they didn't happen to you but they happened for you and you move forward, where you go when you move forward, it's not the end of your story by far, it's the beginning of a new story. That can be the most rewarding story in your life because where it leads is to a life of significance.

Yvette Bodden’s unraveling began in self-exploration and ended in a painful divorce, but she found  blessings and passions along the way she would not have known had she not gone through that crucible. What Bodden discovered as she walked through and emerged on the other side of the devastation was her life’s purpose: as a thought leader and writer who inspires women – through her Web platform Awakened Woman — to not just dream, but to dream big, as they pursue their passions by exercising their giftings.  

To learn more about Yvette Bodden, visit www.awakened-woman.com

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond The Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the Founder of Crucible Leadership.




Yvette Bodden:

I was questioning myself, who am I? I know I'm a mother. I have a "career." I'm a wife. Who is Yvette? I know that sounds crazy, but I just started asking myself, is there more? Is there more to life or is this it? And it just began an unraveling.




Gary Schneeberger:

An unraveling, a painful, messy circumstance to be sure. But as we explore here every week, your life's messiest moments can reveal blessings and passions you would not have known, had you not gone through that crucible. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. On this episode of our series, Second-Act Significance, we talk with Yvette Bodden, whose unraveling began in self-exploration and ended in a painful divorce.




Gary Schneeberger:

But as she walked through and emerged on the other side of that devastation, she found her life's purpose as a thought leader and writer, who inspires women through her web platform, awakened-woman.com, to not just dream, but to dream big as they pursue their passions by exercising their giftings. Yvette Bodden has found Second Act Significance. And you can, too.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yvette, thank you so much for being here. I mean, it is truly an honor to have you. So thank you for being here.




Yvette Bodden:

Thank you for having me here. I'm so excited. This is just such a powerful and much needed conversation.




Warwick Fairfax:

I agree. I mean, as I was reading your website and some of the things you've written, not an elegant phrase, but I kept going like, wow, amazing, oh my gosh. It's just like gaining ... I mean, we haven't even spoken yet. Goosebumps just reading about your philosophy and who you are. I love just the concept of Awakened-Woman and your book Journey to Becoming the Best Self. I mean, something that everybody can aspire to. Before we get a bit into, obviously, you had a crucible and all. Tell us a bit about Yvette Bodden and just family, culture, how you grew up.




Warwick Fairfax:

Because often find the origin story, certainly is in my case, definitely, I'm a product of my environment and we all are to a degree. So just give us a bit of a window of some of the strands that led to who you are now, if you will.




Yvette Bodden:

Wow. Great question. So I was born and raised in New York, by Dominican parents, very strict parents. They very much nurtured the arts in our family. I've always written. I wrote a song when I was 14 years old. I studied ballet for six years. I played the piano, the guitar. It was really something just nurturing our creative side was something that was important. Part of this journey, I tapped into that part of my childhood, I think, because I didn't plan on being a writer. I didn't have a master plan to write a book. I absolutely didn't. I was raised in Manhattan. And I think I have a combination, a little bit of grit, but also some compassion. And I do hone into that when I write, so that's Yvette.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. It's interesting because some families are like, no, math or sports or whatever it is. But it's fascinating that your family just had a real love of the arts and encouraged that, because not every family does. But yours did.




Yvette Bodden:

Well, I don't want to give you a misconception. My mother did say you have to be a doctor or a lawyer. You can do anything else on the side, but ... So, no. When it came time to go to college, I majored in psychology. She wanted to nurture the creative side, but there was really not a lot of money to be made as writers out there.




Warwick Fairfax:

How did that form who you are? I mean, you love the arts, but there was this voice in your head from your parents, Yvette, you got to be practical. Got to pay the rent. You got to pay the bills. I mean, come on. Dreams are fine, but dreaming is for the weekend. During the week, you got to be practical.




Yvette Bodden:

I don't know. I think I've gone the opposite way. I've come to a place where I believe dreams are possible. I feel that if you work hard and you put yourself all in, I think anything is possible. How long it can take? That's another story, but I don't know. I think dreams are important. They fuel passion, they feed purpose. I think dreams are super important. I think I went the opposite way.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, it's funny. I'm an idealist by nature, still am. And I guess I have this feeling that dreams are possible and can be practical if you think a little creatively, little out of the box. I guess, again, I'm an idealist, I think it's possible to have both. It doesn't have to be either or, if that makes sense.




Yvette Bodden:

And I think that mindset is ... It's special, because it doesn't limit you. I feel, to a certain degree, that we raise our children and put them in a box and limit their "dreams." And I don't know, part of me feels like that's a disservice. It feels like just let them go off on their path. And like you said, it has to be practical as well. I don't know. I feel as I get older, I understand the importance of dreaming big.




Warwick Fairfax:

Here you grew up in this environment where there was both arts, but be practical. But yet I can just sense that you've always had this desire to dream. The dreams can happen. That just doesn't happen overnight. But then tell us about life as you grew up and got a job. And obviously, that leads up to the crucible. But tell us about that pre-crucible Yvette. How were you living? What were you doing? Talk about that kind of life, if you will.




Yvette Bodden:

Well, the thing about dreams is they're expensive. I had to get a job and I had to support myself. I, of course, went into corporate America, and I've worked in the financial industry for many years, just planning meetings and events. I think dreams tend to take a backseat. You push them off as you evolve into being an adult. You have financial responsibilities, you have to raise children. I think they were dormant for a long time. And I went to work, 9:00 to 5:00, 9:00 to 6:00, and the dreams were dormant for a long time.




Yvette Bodden:

The rat race was ... It was something I had to do to come to the place I am today. Because I think the way I started thinking about it was that job paid for my dream. That's why I say dreams are expensive. It would have been impossible to not work.




Gary Schneeberger:

And at the same time, you said when we spoke, before we hit record, you said that you always felt a void in that job. You felt like you weren't really making a difference. And we also ask, as we ask all guests to fill out a questionnaire and say some things so we can ask informed questions. And one of the things you said about quotes, you said that you're a collector of quotes. You actually have a wall of inspiration full of them, and one that stands out speaks to what you're talking about, I think. It's a Maya Angelou quote and it is, "There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story inside you." As you were living that life, paying the bills to build the dream, did it feel like there was an untold story inside you and that caused a little agony?




Yvette Bodden:

Ooh, that's a really good question. No, cannot take credit and say that I felt there was anything special about my story or anything exceptional. I definitely did not walk around thinking I could write the story and it would make a difference or change a life. No. I didn't think that. But I also think that comes from a large chunk of my life, I felt I wasn't enough. I felt I wasn't worthy of good things. So I think that has also been a factor in not thinking bigger earlier in life. So, no, no. I definitely did not think I had a story that needed to be heard.




Warwick Fairfax:

That, in a sense, is so sad because there's many people, many women, I imagine, which I know that's your focus to probably feel that. You probably represent thousands, if not, millions of other people, other women who just go to work and they feel like, I'm nothing special. They might even think I'm less than special. I'm nowhere near that. And so just talk about what life was like for you. You go to work every day and subway, a bus. What was life like? How did you feel?




Yvette Bodden:

The only way I can describe it is being the mouse on the wheel. And I think so many people feel that way. Have you ever seen Groundhog Day?




Warwick Fairfax:

Mm-hmm.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yes.




Yvette Bodden:

You're living the same day over and over again. I really didn't feel that there was, like you said, anything special about my journey. I went to work, I paid my bills, enjoyed the nightlife now and then. But I always say, I'm the average Joe, I really am.




Warwick Fairfax:

It sounds like you accepted it. It doesn't sound like you were depressed, per se. It was like, this is life and I'm just carrying on. I mean, that's fair.




Yvette Bodden:

Exactly.




Warwick Fairfax:

It sounds like things are going ... And maybe that could have been your life for the next 30, 40, 50 years. Who knows? But then there was a big change, we call it a crucible. Sometimes it feels like hitting a brick wall at 80 miles an hour or what have you, but ...




Yvette Bodden:

Or more.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Tell us about that wall that you hit that really was very painful, but changed your life.




Yvette Bodden:

Well, I was with my ex-husband for almost 10 years. I was chugging along, I was happy or content, I guess, is the word. I think towards the last, I don't know, I'd say last year or two of our marriage, and it was post- I had a child. I started feeling ... I was questioning myself, who am I? I know I'm a mother. I have a "career." I'm a wife. Who is Yvette? I know that sounds crazy, but I just started asking myself, is there more? Is there more to life or is this it? And it just began an unraveling of sorts.




Yvette Bodden:

And the more questions I asked about myself, I think the more difficult it got for me. And towards the end of the marriage, this journey of finding myself put a lot of space between my husband and I. I was evolving and we were just going in separate ways. And we started living a separate life. And the divorce was imminent. And I started therapy to figure out why was I feeling this way. It was sort of a nagging that I couldn't let go of. And as I found out more about myself and started peeling the layers of the onion, I don't want to say it destroyed my marriage, but it deteriorated it.




Yvette Bodden:

And we got separated. And the divorce triggered serious depression. And that between the divorce and the depression, my life was turned upside down. And I felt like I was walking around, just lost. I felt lost.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, as you're describing this, this is so ... I can't adequately describe it. Sad does not seem to be the right word. I mean, just heart wrenching. Because here you are, you're evolving, you're trying to find yourself. It's like, who is Yvette? I mean, I think of this quote by Thoreau. It's like people live lives of quiet desperation. They're not yelling and screaming. It's just this low grade. I mean, before things got really bad, low grade depression, low grade, is this all there is? And, oh, well, time to do the laundry, time to go to work, time to cook down, time to whatever it is.




Warwick Fairfax:

Maybe I'll go to a movie with some friends and then back to the treadmill, and he just keeps going and going. But there was something amidst the rock or the crust of this is life, just almost like lava wanting to break through this. It's like, life is more than this. There was almost like this deep inner part of Yvette that's trying to break through. And that was causing some pain. Whenever we evolve, especially from the sense of, hey, it's bad analogy. But, hey, I'm living my life as a caterpillar, but maybe I could be a butterfly. I don't know what it's like to ...




Yvette Bodden:

I love that.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I don't know what it's like to go from a caterpillar to a butterfly. Maybe it's painful. I don't know. I mean, we obviously can't ask them. But maybe it is, I don't know. But for humans, it's typically painful, those changes. I mean, rarely are they not ...




Yvette Bodden:

Growing pains, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Right, right. I mean, obviously, you're a mother. I'm blessed to have three adult kids. Children are a blessing. But the process of that happening is painful. But there's a blessing in it. And obviously, any mother would say it was agony. But I know where we had a second of it, because I wouldn't have my beautiful children, right?




Yvette Bodden:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's so sad that you'd like to think your partner, husband, wife would be supportive. And again, we don't need to get into details. But it's sad when that doesn't happen. And by you being more Yvette, that that somehow triggers the breakup of a marriage. I mean, that's just devastatingly sad. I'm not asking for more details. But do you know what I mean? That's so sad.




Yvette Bodden:

It is, but I find a lot of couples evolve in their marriage or relationship over time. And it's really hard to meet this "new person" and feel like, wow, this is not the person I married. I'm not sure you're right for me. As you evolve, you hopefully evolve together. But I think in most cases, I'm not sure that is true. I do understand it. And I appreciate him because he was the same person when I met him, and the day that ... Actually, still until today, he's the same person. I think the core of me was the same, but there was a lot of change in that evolution.




Warwick Fairfax:

You were going through all of this and you had these ideas. How did you navigate your way through that? Because we often say at Beyond the Crucible, when you go through a crucible, which is an incredibly painful moment, you have a choice. Either you can hide under the cover and say, this is awful, it's not fair, why should my marriage break up? Just because I'm being more me, that's not fair. I don't care if it's understandable. It's just flat out not fair. I've got a young child. I don't like my job anymore I'm guessing, getting depressed.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, some people could just get really angry at their spouse, at the universe, saying, this is just not fair. I didn't sign up for this. But yet you chose a different path, so help the listeners understand, because not everybody chooses your path. How did you get out of that? Well, it must have been an incredibly painful situation.




Yvette Bodden:

Well, there are two reasons. Thank you, my therapist, wherever she is. I do believe in therapy. And my daughter, she was the light for me. And I knew that I had to move forward and heal. Now, healing is ... It's a long process. I don't want to say that it's impossible to do it alone, but you don't have to. I did have help. And I'm grateful every day for that.




Warwick Fairfax:

I want listeners to really understand. Because sometimes, less now, but there can be a stigma about getting help. I mean, as listeners know, obviously, when growing up in 150-year-old family media business and $2.25 billion takeover and then went under, I felt like I let my family down, parents, as a person of faith. I felt like I let God down in some strange way. I didn't know that I was clinically depressed, but I was in pretty bad shape. And so, I mean, counseling was definitely very helpful to me. Because I was feeling pretty definitely very worthless, actually.




Warwick Fairfax:

Everything I do, I screw up. And my name was on front pages of newspapers, not in a good way. I think not everybody's situation is public. But when you go through difficult circumstances, getting counseling is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of strength. It's a sign of courage. It's a sign of I believe in myself enough, I'm worth enough to pay for some counseling. I want listeners to hear that. But you talk about your daughter in an article I read, there's a wonderful thing that your daughter said that just ... She must be pretty special.




Warwick Fairfax:

As you were trying to navigate your journey and I guess you're probably saying, "gosh this is tough." She said, "Mom, greatness takes time." I mean, that just blew me away. I mean, to have a daughter like that, I mean, that's just ... Talk about a gift. I mean, that's unbelievable. Talk about how your daughter. Clearly, she's a big part of the story, what led you to where you are now.




Yvette Bodden:

I'll tell you a little story, and I don't share it often because it gets me really emotional. But I was in bed one day and she spent weekends with her father, that particular weekend, she was with me, he had an event. And the lights were off, it was dark, the curtains were shut. It was maybe 1:00 in the afternoon, she walks into my room, she must have been, I'm thinking, six or seven. And she says, "Mommy, please wake up. Open the curtains." And that saved me because I called the therapist the next day and I knew something had to change.




Warwick Fairfax:

Do you feel like sometimes when there's somebody that you love or somebody that loves you that much, love can prompt us to do things we might not have had the strength to do ourselves?




Yvette Bodden:

And ...




Warwick Fairfax:

That sounds like in part your daughter's love. It's like, you know what, not only am I worth it, but my daughter is worth it. She deserves to have the best mom possible. I don't mean to be cliché in that. But does that make sense? Was that part of your thinking?




Yvette Bodden:

Absolutely. And the one thing that I do want to mention is not everyone has a child or has a loved one that can do that, that can have the same effect. But I do think that even self-love will just catapult you to get help or change whatever is not working. So I just think it's important to mention that not everyone has what I had. But even if it's self-love, which to me is the greatest love you can ever have, find that love within if you don't have what a daughter or a son or a husband. I think that's important to mention. And it's one of the reasons why I started the platform. Because a lot of people do not have the resources to pay for therapy, do not have a support group, do not have someone to draw them out of whatever darkness they are experiencing.




Gary Schneeberger:

And one of the things that helps you, Yvette, as we've talked before, and I guess before I get into that, let me say, I love Maya Angelou. She's a phenomenal writer. I'm taking nothing away from her when I say, my guess is your wall of inspiration, the top quote is, "Mom, greatness takes time." As great as Maya Angelou is your daughter's quote, I think, is probably above that may be by one tick.




Yvette Bodden:

I think so.




Gary Schneeberger:

But one of the things that you said helped you really, as you were moving forward, you talked about how you kept diaries as a young girl. And so you were accustomed, you indicated earlier, you were creative, you were accustomed to writing and there was something about writing as you went through your experience of that divorce and the pain and the depression that followed. Talk a little bit about that, about the role that played in your eventual ascension from that not wanting to get out of bed moment.




Yvette Bodden:

I think writing is powerful. It doesn't have to be writing for anyone, for an audience. Just writing, journaling, as a lot of us call it. Journals are the only place where you can ... I call it vomiting on a page, but where you can let everything out. There's no judgment, there's no talk back, there's no ... It's just you and that pen, you and that paper, or you and your computer, just talking about all those things that you can't say out loud. Because I think we all have things that we can't say out loud, we can't share with anyone else. And a journal is your sacred ... It's just you and that piece of paper, your thoughts, your dreams, your wishes, your pain, everything that you're feeling. It's cathartic. It helps in the healing process.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, this is why I thought I'd be saying wow every two seconds on this podcast. So forgive me if ... I so agree and believe. I mean, I think all three of us here are writers and have gone through periods of my life in my newspaper days where I was journaling all the time. And it was extremely painful. But for me, I mean, I'm a person of faith. And so when I journal, I feel like not only do I write down my frustrations, I feel like I hear this inner voice. Now for some, it maybe that their true selves. For me, this sounds a little weird, it may feel like God or some higher power.




Warwick Fairfax:

But whatever it is, I feel like ... Because sometimes I'll be writing things down saying, I think this is true, but this doesn't make sense. I don't know that this is me or my conscious me. It's like the true inner me. It sounds a bit like metaphysical. But I've found sometimes that I've journal, I've found some deep inner truth and almost tranquility of the soul that I wouldn't have any other ways. I don't know if any of that makes sense at all, Yvette.




Yvette Bodden:

It all makes sense. It's funny. Because when I'm asked about the book, I am not lying to you when I tell you the book wrote me. It was something bigger than me. And I know it sounds a little cuckoo, but it literally was sort of someone else taking the reins and I'm the messenger. So, no. Everything you're saying is I connected with it because that's exactly how I feel.




Warwick Fairfax:

You're in this place where you're coming out of an incredibly painful circumstance and journaling sounds like a key medium. Connect journaling to how your mission evolved. It's like rather than just working in the finance world and setting meetings and events, you evolve, your life evolve. How did the journaling connect that to where you are now? Because it sounds like there was an evolution of understanding who you were and then what does that mean for you day to day, what's your mission and purpose in the world?




Gary Schneeberger:

And put into the context of our series, Second Act Significance. First act, there's the job that you feel disconnected from, not really satisfied by, I think you said at one point, it was just a job. Then you go through this painful crucible. Now maybe as you're journaling and you're getting your mojo back, maybe that's intermission and you're about to launch the second act. To Warwick's point, how did that intermission, that journaling, that taking time to breathe, how did that launch you into your second act?




Yvette Bodden:

I'm not sure I'm answering correctly. But the journaling helped me connect with, I guess, the writer. And I had something to say, I had a message. And I felt the journaling was ... It was just such a big part of whatever I was supposed to be doing. I feel I had something to say. I felt a lot of people are out there going through the same thing and they have no one. And I felt that I needed to put this message out there in hopes of helping others.




Warwick Fairfax:

When you say the message, how would you describe that message as it was forming? What's the message that you felt like people, and especially other women needed to hear?




Yvette Bodden:

I say, the core of the message is you can fall 100 times, but you can rise up. I know it sounds simple. But I wanted to inspire that fight in other women. I feel that my writing is doing that. And when I get messages from women in Africa and other parts of the world saying, you planted a seed, thank you for sharing your story, the same thing happened to me and I feel like I can get past it, I know I'm doing something right.




Gary Schneeberger:

I've got to interject just as the co-host here to say, this is one of the reasons why when we were going through some of the things we read about you, some of the things you and I talked about, I was amazed myself. I said wow a few times because I'm like, Yvette and Warwick are the same person in some ways. And if you happen to be watching on YouTube, you can look at them, they don't look like they're the same person.




Gary Schneeberger:

But some of the words, honestly, seriously, some of the ways that you describe your journey back that you can fall a thousand times as long as you get back up is the same thing that Warwick has talked about. Warwick just put a book out in the fall of his experiences. And his goal for that wasn't to just get it off his chest, his goal for that was to help other people. So you guys, I just want to make sure the listeners catch that. This is further proof of what we talked about on the show all the time.




Gary Schneeberger:

The circumstances of your crucible may be different from the guy down the street or the gal down the street, but the emotions are so much the same. Listen to how Warwick has described his crucible of losing the family media dynasty at a cost of, he loves when I say this, 2.25 billion, and how that affected him and how he wanted to turn that pain into helping others. And then listen to how Yvette's talking about the pain of her divorce and the way that she then wanted to turn what she learned from that and provide that to other women to help them walk through it. It's the exact same blueprint written perhaps with different pens.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, it's a great point, Gary. I mean, that's one of the amazing things I've learned through this podcast, is we've had people, as I've mentioned, of all genders, races, backgrounds, heritages. But it's so often amazing how we're more the same as humans than we think, the struggle for significance, the struggle for identity, who am I. I certainly found this in my own way. But it sounds like as you were wanting to tell the stories of other women, which we'll get to Awakened-Woman and your book, it sounds like there was a bit of healing in that as you were using your light to provide light to other women to give them hope.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, just one drop of grace, one drop of hope here and there goes a long way. Did you feel like it was almost like a virtuous circle like a positive flywheel? You were becoming more fully Yvette as you were helping other women?




Yvette Bodden:

Absolutely. I started feeling like I had purpose, I had something to share that could help other women. To me, that's gold. One of the things that I'm learning is something you mentioned. I think we ... And I'll speak for women because I'm a woman. But I think there is so much more in common than we think. And our pain can come from different sources. But a lot of the experiences that we have, we can learn from each other. And that's one of the things that I'm hoping my platform will show. A lot of us go through quite a bit of the same things.




Yvette Bodden:

I think that's something that ... It's just so powerful when we share our stories and other people connect and whether it's giving them hope or whether it's helping them see a different perspective. I don't know. It's really powerful for me. Because that's a connection, that's life, that is ... I don't know, it's so amazing and it's so beautiful when I can give that gift because I do think it's a gift.




Gary Schneeberger:

Let's talk a bit about the book, because we haven't really gotten there yet. You said the book wrote you. Talk about the book, what it's called, what the aim of it is. And you describe it as prescriptive fiction. I don't think I've ever heard that phrase.




Yvette Bodden:

It's a fancy word for self-help, my editor did that, self-help.




Gary Schneeberger:

I've never heard it. And I've written a couple of books and I've never heard prescriptive fiction. So explain to listeners a little bit about what your book is about, what it accomplishes, whatyour goal in writing it was.




Yvette Bodden:

First of all, it's A Journey to Becoming the Best Self and it's part self-help, part memoir. I talked about the time before divorce and then post-divorce. So I call it ... It's two parts. And my second act is my awakening. And I talk about very tough details in the book when I went through the depression, it was a dark time and I wanted to make sure that readers understood the darkness that I was going through. I give some tips about coming out of depression, how I did it, talk about dating a little bit after divorce, talk about some of the financial aspects that we never think about when we get married. It's a contract.




Yvette Bodden:

It's a contract. And I think we tend to romanticize it and forget that there is the financial aspect. I do get into that a little bit. And my goal in writing the book was bringing the reader into my experience as much as possible. And that took a lot of detail. It was very painful to write, but it was the only way to write it so people could understand what the pain was and what it meant to come out of that pain. And towards the end, I talk about the birth of the Awakened-Woman platform.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. When you think about the book, what would you say two or three most important things that readers really need to take away?




Yvette Bodden:

Ooh, that's a good question.




Gary Schneeberger:

I like how you say that when we ask questions, that's the third time you've said that.




Yvette Bodden:

I know. These are very...




Gary Schneeberger:

... time, so I'm feeling ... So we need to put this in a show roll, Warwick, about how good we are as questioners.




Yvette Bodden:

Well, they're very well thought out questions. And I can honestly say, a lot of them I've never gotten before.




Gary Schneeberger:

Oh, thank you.




Yvette Bodden:

The first thing I want readers to take from it is there is light after dark, you can start over. Let me see if I could explain it. I know for me, as a woman, when we go through a divorce, we see it as something that's awful and painful and ... I don't know. You feel like your life has ended. And I want women to understand that divorce is not the end of you. It's a beginning, it's another chance to start over and figure out who you are. And I'm not saying it's a positive thing. But if you look at it that way, it can be. Think it can be. And the third thing I would say, it's never too late to start something new. Never too late, never too old.




Warwick Fairfax:

As you're talking about that, what you went through was very painful. But between the divorce and just that emerging thought of who is Yvette, do you see any blessing or gift in that pain? That sounds like almost a barbaric question, but ...




Yvette Bodden:

No, no. There is absolutely ... There are blessings. A, my ex-husband and I have been able to successfully co-parent and we're actually good friends. I think that's a huge blessing. I have a whole new career. And I promise you, I would not have had it were not for that divorce and that pain. Absolutely. Falling in love again, that's a blessing. There are plenty of blessings.




Warwick Fairfax:

And there's that phrase, blessed to be a blessing. It just feels like that's how you live. You've been blessed with your daughter and so many other ways, but now you're blessing so many other folks. Talk about Awakened-Woman. I love that phrase, awakened, because that, to me, implies new birth, new life, awaken the beauty within, the butterfly that exists in every caterpillar, just waiting to just ... This beautiful creature, beautiful human, beautiful woman, if you will, in every sense of that word, waiting to come out. You interview, I think you've done more than 500 articles, everybody from celebrities to just mothers, abuse relationships, people from Latino backgrounds. Talk about what's the mission of Awakened-Woman, if you will.




Yvette Bodden:

That's easy. To inspire, empower, and encourage women to live their best life, to become their best selves. When I started the platform, it was stories about me, stories about that I had just come across, experience that I've had with just watching other women. But around, I guess, the beginning of the pandemic, it's hard to write when you're not living life. Those articles became harder to write. And I thought about how I always talk about how, as women, we share many experiences.




Yvette Bodden:

I started reaching out to celebrities because I think American society, I think we put celebrities and people of affluent lifestyles, we put them on a pedestal. And they're human just like we are. I wanted to start interviewing some women that we've seen on TV, CEOs, authors, that we think of as, wow, have the perfect life. And the special thing about each interview is that every woman has shared something personal about her journey. It has nothing to do with the promotion of their careers, it's about them as a woman.




Yvette Bodden:

And I think that makes it very special because when you read the interviews, you feel like, wow, that's something that I've felt, that's something that I've experienced, and you see the human side. And that's what I want. I think it's an awesome way to connect just people by showing that humanity. Because we see them on TV and they may have millions in their bank accounts, but they're still human, just like you and I, except that we're not on TV or we're not millionaires. But I think it's really special.




Yvette Bodden:

I spoke to one woman, she's an actress, and I can't tell the name because I haven't released it yet. But we talked about the feeling of not being enough. And it was a very personal conversation. And she talks about how she gets these great roles, she gets this great life, but she still feels like she's not enough. And that's what I want the readers to see.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, that is profound, what you're saying, Yvette, that all humans, I think, really struggle with this sense of, am I enough? And I would imagine all women and some maybe mask it more than others, but even so-called successful people. I mean, their lives aren't always easy. You look at Hollywood, how many happy marriages are there in the Hollywood? It almost feels like that's the exception. Maybe that just mirrors the rest of American culture or the rest of world culture, I don't know. But sometimes it almost seems to be worse.




Warwick Fairfax:

Whether it's divorce, substance abuse, I mean, it's just like things happen like that. I mean, if you feel enough, I mean, it's not that you won't get a divorce, maybe less some of the other things. But I guess the point is, there's pain everywhere, even amongst the successful. And we don't realize that. And then it makes these women seem human to other women. It's like, gosh, I guess their life isn't perfect. It seems so good, but it's like, oh, maybe, gosh, wow, that's painful, but ...




Yvette Bodden:

Yeah. We talk about self-love. I just interviewed an actress. She's on a current show on ABC. We talked about her self-love journey and how when she was younger, she was in an abusive relationship and her divorce and the effect that divorce had on her life and on this journey of self-love. And you feel like, wow, we aren't not different. And it's one of my favorite interviews.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow.




Gary Schneeberger:

Let's put a pin in that idea of the journey to self-love, because I have a question for you on that. But we've reached a part of the show where I normally say something like the captain's turned on the fasten seatbelt signs, we have to land the plane soon. But since we're all journalists here, we're all writers here, I'm going to say that it's almost time. And, Yvette, you may be too young to even know this, but there used to be, injournalism, there may still be ... I don't know, I've been out of it a while. But in my 20 years there, when you ended a story, you did -30-.




Gary Schneeberger:

That was how you ended the story, at the bottom of the story, -30- was the end. We're getting to the point that we're going to have to put the -30- on this, but we're not there yet. I'd be remiss before I went and asked my last question, Yvette. If I didn't give you the chance to tell listeners how they can find Awakened-Woman online and learn more about you, how can they do that?




Yvette Bodden:

Absolutely. They can visit awakened-woman.com.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, that's very simple, awakened-woman.com. One thing I want to say to you, Yvette, as we do begin to wrap before Warwick asks another question or two is, I was in journalism, as I said, for 20 years, 10 years of that as an editor. And one of the things I'm able to do, I can just tell when someone's a good interviewer, a good journalist, and I can tell you are. And here's how I can tell that. Even before you said every woman shared something personal, that tells me that you're good at getting that information out. People feel comfortable talking to you.




Gary Schneeberger:

But the other thing I can see is if listeners go back and listen to this again, listen to the pauses that Yvette takes before she answers questions sometimes. One of the greatest tools in being a good interviewer is learning how to leverage silence. In other words, not being afraid of it. Don't feel you have to fill it up. And I can tell, as you answer questions, you don't feel like you have to froth at the mouth as you just keep filling the air with words. You think about them. As a questioner, I can tell that about you.




Gary Schneeberger:

As an old editor, I can tell that that's the way that you ask questions as well. And that makes you, I can tell, based on what you get people to say a good journalist. As someone who loves journalism, I applaud you for being a good one. I have hope for the future of the career I love because of people like you. Now let me ask ...




Yvette Bodden:

You're going to make me cry.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, I didn't mean to ...




Yvette Bodden:

Thank you. That means a lot.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, you're welcome and you're very deserving. Here's the last question I want to ask you, because we asked you on the little form that we have. If there was only one question we could ask, what would you want it to be? And you were talking, before I started blathering here a little bit, about the journey to self-love. And you wrote, if we can only ask you one question to ask you this one, what has been your biggest challenge on the journey to self-love?




Yvette Bodden:

Understanding my worth. I'm going to cry again.




Gary Schneeberger:

No, and ...




Yvette Bodden:

I think ...




Gary Schneeberger:

Please, please go. If you have more to say, please do.




Yvette Bodden:

I think understanding your worth can change your entire life. Knowing your worth, it affects every decision you make in life, whether it's in your personal life, your career. The choices that you make are all affected by knowing that you're worth everything.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, that is profoundly true. I mean, I believe, I guess from my perspective, every human being is worthy of love. Every human being is worth something. Again, my faith perspectives, and I think probably a lot of other religious perspectives teach that God loves us, not because of what we do, just because of who we are. There's nothing we can do or need to do to earn God's love, at least from my philosophical and spiritual paradigm.




Warwick Fairfax:

But you get just that sense that every human being, every woman, obviously, that's your focus, every human, every woman has inherent worth? She starts out beautiful and will always be beautiful in soul and spirit, whether she's 2 or 92. It does not matter. Every human, every woman has worth. As we sum up here. There's a comment somebody said about you that, again, we're only just getting to know each other and I think it's obviously true, is it says that she, referring to you, writes with endless empathy. I don't know.




Warwick Fairfax:

If I was writing it, I'd probably say, unending empathy, I'd probably phrase it that way, but same thing. But that's a real gift because it makes people feel comfortable sharing. And by sharing, you can help so many people. As we wrap up, there may be some women who are listening to this podcast and heaven forbid maybe today is their worst day, maybe they are in the midst of a very ugly divorce, lost a job, maybe they're abused. I mean, there's all sorts of tragedies that can happen to people and to women. What would be a message of hope that you would give maybe that woman is listening to you today, and today maybe her worst day?




Yvette Bodden:

I'd say hold on. Tomorrow's a new day, and everything can change. But it's going to take you to change whatever it is that's bringing that pain. I think maybe every day you wake up, you get a chance to start over. I guess that's the best way to put it.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, I've been in the communications business long enough, listener, to know when the last word on the subject has been smoking, and Yvette has spoken the last word on this subject. And what she just laid out and what she just said is a recipe, is a blueprint, is a guideline for how you start a second act. And what she's talked about in the previous 45, 50 minutes of the show is how you develop significance in that second act. She has done that very thing.




Gary Schneeberger:

And until the next time we're together, listener, do remember what we've just talked about here, that your crucible experiences we know are painful. We know that they can knock the wind out of your sails and change the trajectory of your life. Go back, listen to Yvette tell her story. It changed the trajectory of her life, but she didn't stay knocked off balance. She found her balance. She found her worth. She pressed into how she could live her life of significance by helping others, and that has led her to a place right now where she is living life on purpose in service to others. And that is what we call at Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible, a life of significance.

Nancy Volpe Beringer was in her late 50s when she let herself not just dream of a career in fashion design, but pursue it. She explains that the success and security she had built professionally over several decades didn’t fully scratch the creative itch she felt as a young girl who loved to sew.  That’s when she pursued her passion with vigor – earning a master’s degree and finishing as runner-up in Season 18 of TV’s reality-show smash PROJECT RUNWAY. It was on the show she discovered her couture calling: designing accessible, adaptable clothing for those who haven’t historically had access to high fashion.

To learn more about Nancy Volpe Beringer and her fashion designs, visit www.nancyvolpeberinger.com

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

I dared to ask myself, "If I was young again, what would I want to be learning?" Hypothetical question. The amazing thing was the answer came immediately to me, immediately, and it was fashion design. Don't ask me where it came. It came immediately. So I'm still not sleeping and I start researching programs. And I'm going in to see what schools, what's available and then I see interior design. I'm like, "Well, maybe I should do that at my age." And then I went, "No, Nancy, you're just dreaming. The practical is to stay where you're at. This isn't about being practical. This is about a fantasy if you were young." Well, I start researching it. By the next week I was in New York touring two of the top fashion schools.




Gary Schneeberger:

That seems like a pretty quick pivot to a new life, doesn't it? But then this week's guest, Nancy Volpe Beringer was in her late fifties when the moment she describes happened and she didn't want to spend one more minute of her life doing something other than what brought her heart alive. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. On this week's episode of our series, Second-Act Significance, Volpe Beringer explains that the success and security she had built professionally over several decades didn't fully scratch the creative itch she felt as a young girl who loved to sew. That's when she pursued a fashion career with vigor, earning a master's degree and finishing as runner up in Season 18 of TV's reality show smash Project Runway, where she discovered her couture calling, designing accessible, adaptable clothing for those who haven't historically had access to high fashion. Nancy Volpe Beringer has found second-act significance and you can too.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, firstly, Nancy, thank you so much and I love what you do with your two lines, The Nancy Volpe Beringer clothing line, the couture brand and then the Vault by Volpe Beringer, just the adaptability for the disabled. That's so inspiring and we'll get to that story and Project Runway and the choice you made that not everybody else did that you would just felt a call for that, so it's so inspiring. And also really, it's inspiring that you began this journey in your late 50s and now in your 60s. As somebody that's also over 60 and just had my book, Crucible Leadership come out last October 2021, it's easy to think, "Gosh, it feels a little late. Couldn't have happened 20 years ago or something?" So I'm just so impressed by your example.




Warwick Fairfax:

So I'd like to go back a bit before you launched into your just incredible vision, your fashion vision. I know life wasn't exactly easy, and at one point, you were a single mom with two small kids. So just as a backdrop, tell us a bit about your life growing up and it sounds like you had enjoyed sewing and just different things. There's part of the origin story of Nancy Volpe Beringer as you grew up and things you've enjoyed, so just tell us a bit about that.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

Oh, it seems like I've been following this roadmap, not knowing where my destination was supposed to take me, but it began actually I think that my childhood crucible moment could be when I took a sewing class. And the only reason I did that was because my mother kicked us out of the house, there were too many of us and we had to go to summer school. So I took a sewing class and I loved to sew. Instead of weeding the yard, I had to do all the sewing projects in the house. So that started it, but it wasn't nurtured as a potential career. So it was just something I did because I enjoyed it and we didn't have extra clothes. You didn't go shopping in my household for clothes, but I got to make some clothes.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So it was there, it was planted, but then life took over and it became just being practical, surviving, doing what you needed to do to survive, not so much what you wanted to do because I never really thought in those terms, it was just how to survive, I guess, and be independent.




Warwick Fairfax:

So did you ever think about doing fashion or did that really not come up in the compass? If it did, was it like, "Well that's fine, Nancy, but you know, come on, let's get a real job?" kind of thing? How did all that happen?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

What's really interesting is I marched to my own beat right from the get go because my two older sisters went off to college. And that was actually groundbreaking for my older sister because that was something new as a female going off to college. I was the one who said, "No, I don't want to go to school." I immediately got a job. I was very shy, but I was also very determined and I got a job right out of high school, saved for a year, and then when all my friends were in school, I went and got apartment by myself. So it was, I think, driven more. It wasn't even that, "What do you want to do?" I took my own path. So I was very independent thinking, a risk taker, not knowing it. So yeah, but for me, it was practical.




Warwick Fairfax:

So it was much driven by your internal desire to be practical, to be independent. It wasn't so much people lecturing you, it was just, at that time, that's kind of the path you chose.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

I wanted to be on my own.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that being said, Nancy, one of the things you told me when we talked before we were recording here, you said that you'd always been creative and you said even with spreadsheets and even in business plans and that you never knew why. And that's part of all of that has come together, right?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

That is so key because my one sister was an art teacher. So in your mind you think, "Well, they're the artist."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

That makes sense. I thought I'm a business person. I liked being organized, more of a business brain, but I always was creating and I didn't understand the need. So I would be creating ... Again, I love creating spreadsheets. I love creating business plans, leadership programs. The crazier, the better. It got to a point in my careers where people, if they saw me coming down the hall, they'd hide because it's like, "What is she up to now?" So it's like, "Don't get me involved," but they did. So I just have always had to create and so many small scale to large scale. It was my oxygen, but I didn't know. I didn't identify it. It just came from within, and as long as I was creating, it seemed I was satisfied.




Warwick Fairfax:

So here you are, you left home, you have an apartment and you begin in the work world, so talk about those early years, and frankly, the next decades through the 50s because there's a whole story there until you had a major shift. So tell us about those years as you're finding your way in life.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So in my 20s, again, I became independent, I got my apartment, but I also got married. And by the end of my 20s, I was divorced, a single parent unexpectedly from my viewpoint, and at the time, it was with a two and a four-year-old. And again, I had no college degree because that wasn't in my plan, but then I was like, "All right, now I need to support my children but also be a parent and how can I do that?" And I had two sisters that were teachers. I thought, "Oh, I'll become a teacher because I'll have the time to do both." Well, that was quite interesting. So at, I guess around 30, I went and got my bachelor's degree in business education and I did it in three years because I was going to run out of total money and I just had a ...




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So I did in three years, but the plan backfired, because as a teacher, I wasn't making enough money and I found myself working two, three, four, one time even five jobs, bringing in enough income. So it really didn't pan out the way I thought, but it took me to the next step. So it was always connecting and you didn't understand why the one challenge took me to another completely new place. And I always loved doing things I didn't know how to do. Again, that was intriguing to me. When I took the teaching job, it was a one-person department in a vo-tech school, business technology with the oldest outdated thing, but the challenge was to do something with it.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And so I've always loved to do that. And so from teaching, then I became an advocate for teachers and school employees and worked for the education association where I really had spent most of my career. There's always this kind of path, challenge, a bump in the road, something happened and then I just took a dive and went to a new place, but again always being able to create.




Warwick Fairfax:

So you're working from what I understand in the New Jersey Educational Association. Is that an administrative group or is that-




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So it's the biggest teachers union, school employees union.




Warwick Fairfax:

Right, right, right, right. Okay, okay, you're advocating for teachers and you're in administration in there which probably you've reached a point where you probably could support your family. Did you feel like you had at least somewhat of a sane life like you could not be 24/7 because any job you can do that or was it pretty difficult to get to sane?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

No. So when I started there, it was actually I applied for a job I didn't get, but then they called me back and there was a temporary one and it was in communications, public relations, editor of a paper. I had never taken a journalism course. I never took a journalism course. I did my very first article I wrote it looked like a business report versus a story, but I learned, I asked questions and then I became a speech writer and then I became a media spokesperson. I just did, so I was always having ... I did leadership development, but then when I got to the managerial level, which from the outside looking in, that is golden.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

There's not many spots and that's when it was like I'm financially in a great place. My future looks good, but always working crazy hours, I mean like always working crazy hours. One thing I think was very significant, I thought as a hardworking parent, single parent, I was being a role model for my children, but I would have like people coming into my house, we'd have long meetings. I've always worked 60, 80, 100 hour weeks. That's just what I've done and I can remember my son in high school, we're talking about college and he wasn't sure if he wanted to go to college. And having not gone until I was in my early 30s, I said, "But it opens doors." I said, "Look at me, by getting my degree what I've been able to do."




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

Now, just picture this, there's a knife slowly coming to me, into my heart because, and I can get emotional thinking about this, I remember my son looking at me and saying, "But mom, you're always working. Why would I want to be like you?"




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And here I thought I was such an ideal role model and I didn't have the balance. It killed me almost, but I needed to hear it. It was an important lesson and we just come at life, but that was again, that's generational also.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, absolutely. It's easy to judge in hindsight, but as you were growing up, that was normal. You work hard, you get ahead because you think you're doing your best for your family and you can only know what you know based on the upbringing you have. It's easy to look back, but you did the best you can. Not to dwell it too much, but how did you handle that with your son because that would feel like a dagger to the heart, there's no question. How did you handle that?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

I don't know exactly, but I must have been successful because he ended off going to school.




Warwick Fairfax:

Okay.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And so I guess, however, strategy I did and I also remember at a point because he was a musician and he was at Berkeley College of Music, and at a point, he was singing like, "Why am I even here? Maybe I should just come home and drop out." And so again, I found a letter I wrote to him because we didn't do emails and I wrote a letter and I said, "Well, that would be great. If that's what you need to do, because again, I didn't go to school right away. If that's what you need to do, take a break. That's great. I would love another adult person in the house to help. I'm all my own. I would love somebody to help with the cooking and cleaning and the shopping. That would be awesome." He stayed in school.




Warwick Fairfax:

That was a very smart strategic letter. Yeah, I have a couple adult sons and a daughter, and yeah, certainly for the adult sons, that would be very effective. So as we shift here to, I guess, second act, if you will, for your life, you've got all these creative things bubbling around and I don't know, maybe a bit like lava beneath the surface, maybe had a couple little mini-volcanoes or geysers or whatever, it started poking through the crusty surface, to be practical. And in your 50s, maybe they came strong enough that you began to seriously consider a shift.




Warwick Fairfax:

So talk about you're in this great job, I think, I believe your boss said, "Hey, this is a job for life. You'll have retirement." It's the kind of job, if you're practical, you never leave that kind of job. Job security. There's always going to be teachers. They're always going to need advocates. That's not going to go away. So talk about how that shift began to happen to really lead to where you are now. How did that happen?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So I was achieved what I thought was my dream job and became a director of the group that I used to work in. It was almost immediate. I thought I could make a difference and it wasn't happening. There were just so many roadblocks. So not only was I having trouble breathing because my creativity was being stifled, it was also my effectiveness. I've always thought I needed to make a difference in life and I was not able to do that. And it was like within months, it just happened. It was the volcano erupted and I started losing sleep. I just knew I was in a bad place.




Warwick Fairfax:

So what happened next? So these volcanoes are going off. You're not feeling fulfilled in your job. Sometimes, further up the chain is not always good. There's more bureaucracy politics in any, it doesn't matter what the organization is. There's always roadblocks and issues and challenges and just the nature of human beings and bureaucracy. So that's happening and so what did you begin to consider? What was all those little volcanoes going off? Where was that heading you?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

Well, this is where I guess I would say it was my most major crucible moment and it was 3:00 AM, because I know exactly because I wasn't sleeping at 3:00 AM and I'm thinking of my sons. The one is in finance, president of a company, very successful. The other, the musician, had graduated, had a recording studio, but he wasn't making money, so he's teaching himself additional skills, photography, videography all online. And believe it or not, I started thinking about what he was doing, it sounded so exciting and I got jealous. I got jealous of my own son. And this is the moment my life changed. I dared to ask myself, "If I was young again, what would I want to be learning?" Hypothetical question.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

The amazing thing was the answer came immediately to me, immediately, and it was fashion design. Don't ask me where it came. It came immediately. So I'm still not sleeping and I start researching programs. And I'm going in to see what schools, what's available and then I see interior design. I'm like, "Well, maybe I should do that at my age." And then I went, "No, Nancy, you're just dreaming. The practical is to stay where you're at. This isn't about being practical. This is about a fantasy if you were young." Well, I start researching it. By the next week, I was in New York touring two of the top fashion schools and I signed up for a drawing class because I did not know how to draw, illustrate, but I started taking it the day of the one tour.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And the last one I took happened to be in my backyard in Philadelphia, but it was always there. And once I answered it, there was no going back. And I walked away and resigned and I remember the executive director said, "Have you always wanted to do this?" And I went, "I never even dared to dream. Again, I was always being very successful, but doing what was needed in my life and for others. But once I opened the door and peeked in, I had to go through it."




Warwick Fairfax:

And so when you went through it, what was that door? What door did you go through?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So the good news is maybe because of just the way my practical life, I've always been very fiscally conservative. So that very first job out of high school, making just over a hundred dollars a week, I took a savings bond out of every paycheck, so that I could get my apartment after a year. So I was always saving. When I went to work for the education association, even though it was temporary, I enrolled in the pension system. I didn't take vacation days. I didn't take sick days. So I had a little nest egg, so that it's easy to say, "Oh, I went and I followed my dream and became a fashion designer." Well, it's because of all those decades before I had the opportunity and I took my life savings and I enrolled in a three-year master's program at Drexel University.




Gary Schneeberger:

And one of the things that you said about that, Nancy, that I thought really speaks to how serious you were taking this, even though as you say it's a fantasy, the other school was like a one-year program, right? It was Parsons which is very associated with Project Runway and you just knew intuitively that you weren't going to get to learn, get your hands really in the fabric as it were, you weren't going to get to learn quite as much in a year as you could learn in the three-year program, so you went for the more expensive, more in-depth program. Why did you make that choice?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

Well, fortunately, so fortunately, when I found the one-year program at Parsons, again sometimes the top school in the country, I also went to FIT, I had been just recently married and I was so excited, because again, I'm very goal oriented. And I remember sitting at a bar and having dinner and I said to my husband, I said, "Oh, my God, I found the program. It's one year. I can get my associate's degree in one year. I'm going to become a fashion designer," and he goes ... He's got a lot of nicknames for me. He goes, "Calm down, fireball." He says, "I thought you're doing this for the love of learning. Why are you rushing the learning?" Thank you. Thank you, Ted. Because without hearing those words, I would've been at Parsons and one-year program would not have been enough.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

But then I joke with him because then I enrolled in the three-year program and he lost his wife who was then doing 80-hour, a 100-hour school week. And you could see Drexel outside our window where we were renting an apartment and I'm like ... So yeah, but I've such a supportive team behind me.




Warwick Fairfax:

So I wanted to dwell on this shift a bit because here you are, so how old were you when you started at Drexel?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

I think I just was 58. I think 58.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's astonishing. I'd say there's not that many people at that age that would say, "You know what? Maybe I think fashion, maybe something else, but it's too late. I'm too old. I missed my chance and that's just life." Many would say that, but yet, I love what you said earlier that you said something like ... You don't think you ever asked, you never really dared to dream. I know you said earlier like a Ted Talk, "Follow your dream. Make fear your friend," which we'll get to the fear part, which is fascinating, but you never really asked yourself, "What does Nancy really want to do?" It's an irrelevant question, "Well, what's the practical thing to do? I've got to get a job, and then later on, I've got to support two kids. I can't afford to be crazy. I've got to feed them. I've got to build a life for them."




Warwick Fairfax:

But you came to a point in which you actually, you dared to say and a lot of us think, "Well, my dreams don't matter. It's all about serving others." And you served a lot of people, but you can serve others out of the dream you have within. It's not either/or, but often, they think, "Okay, my life, my needs don't matter. It's all about my kids. It's all about my husband. It's all about my wife or all about my employees and I just want to be faithful and my dreams and desires are irrelevant." It's almost like, "I don't matter," or at least, "My dreams don't matter," but you made that shift, many don't.




Warwick Fairfax:

So for those who may be listening, how can you make that shift to saying, "Actually, I do matter. My dreams do deserve to be treasured"? How did you make that shift because I think it's stunning?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

That's a great question. I always felt something was lacking. I just knew there was another life in me. I didn't understand it, but it was there, but I never again allowed myself to think about it. I was very successful. I achieved a lot. People again would look at it and think of how successful, but there was still something deep inside that I knew was not being ... There's a fire, but it just wasn't allowed to take off. And I remember my friends saying, "Well, you need a lot of little fires before the big one happens." I don't know, I can't remember the words, but I think it really was when I started at Drexel, it was ... You would think I'd feel so out of place, but I felt like home, I found my home. I felt like I found where this journey was supposed to take me.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And my very first class was an art class. Why? I almost didn't even try to do it because I'm still not a great illustrator, but I figured out a way to get through the program. And I got there early because I didn't even get a tour of the school and I remember student walking in and I'm sitting on the one stool and there's a platform in the middle and he sits on the other side because, of course, I'm the teacher, right? And then the next one comes in, sits next to him, so I pick up my things and I go and I sit with them, right? And I forgot that I looked different because that's how much I felt like I was where I belong and it took a while, but I brought so much with me. I brought so much life experience with me and I think it served me so well, because again, when you talk about fear, I had nothing to fear in my designing because I knew there were so many more important things than whether or not I made the right cut or designed something and had to redo it.




Gary Schneeberger:

I want to jump in just for a second. Because this is a series on Second-Act Significance, what Nancy just described is the power of the second act, "I felt like I was at home. I felt like ..." All of these things that she didn't know where they were leading when she felt the tug, the tug took her to the second act. And it's different for everybody what that second act is, but clearly this is the first half of what we're talking about here in this series, Second-Act Significance. You've arrived or are en route to arriving at your second act and the significance then comes from that.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

What's really funny is, I guess we'll get into Project Runway, how a reality TV show was such a driving force to take me on this path and to guide me there, almost pushing me, which is just ludicrous to think that, but I really believe in the energy of the universe and the power of the universe. And from when I first watched the first episode, something happened and the universe was taking me somewhere.




Warwick Fairfax:

Tell us how Project Runway happened. You obviously were following it for a number of years. You're in Drexel, and then you decided, "You know what? I'm going to go for it." Talk about that because that's all ... It's one thing to go to fashion school, that's incredible, but Project Runway? Oh, my gosh, that's got ... How did that happen? How'd you get that idea and what happened?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And I know how it happened at age ... I think I was just about to turn 50 was the first season. I remember watching it with my mother and I remember watching and I said, "You know, if I had studied fashion and took my love of sewing as a child, I could have been on this show." I just fell in love with this show and I said ... And why I would think that, I'm 50 years old, I'm thinking that I could have been on that show, but it was there. It got planted in this crazy brain of mine. Fast forward, I have this job. I'm also getting more into fashion. Again, having grown up 12 years wearing a school uniform and just making my things, I was apparently in my professional life, I was considered fashionable, but it wasn't until I started thrifting and consigning that I got to really explore good fashion and high fashion and got to appreciate it.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So these were all again little steps. And so as soon as I went into Drexel, I went, "Now I can be on Project Runway. Now I'm 57, 58. Oh, now I can be on Project Runway." Didn't tell a soul. Nobody knew about this fantasy of mine. Some people, again, it's a reality TV show. The fashion industry, there's a mixed review. I graduate. Now I'm 61, "I'm going to be on Project Runway." I'm like, "I better apply. I'm getting there." So I applied right away without the experience, but I knew because of my age and the first go around, I actually got an interview and I made it through a couple of the stages.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

Fortunately, I didn't get on. I made it to like the semi-finals and where some people would've thought that as a failure, that just motivated me and there was almost a relief. I'm like, "This is great. I've got a year now to prepare." I took a very intense online draping class out of Paris. I signed up for couture courses. I went over to London for two weeks and took at Central St. Martins, the top fashion school in the world and I took an intensive class. I start training like an athlete. And during that time, I spent two years of physical therapy because while at school, I developed arthritis in my neck and so I wake up every day in pain, but being active actually helps me through the day.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So I started training as an athlete to get back on and I knew like there was something that said, "I am going to be on Project Runway," it makes no sense, but there was something there. And I remember the first time when I went, I had to do a video and I called my son up, "I got a videographer son. This is going to be great, right? I'm going to have a cool video." And I said, "I have a favor. I need to make a video." When I told him what it was for, he said, he begged me not to go on. He said, "Please, mom, don't. Don't do it." And there were two reasons. One, who wants their mother on a reality TV? And the other one is he has watched and witnessed the pain as a survivor of adult bullying and he has seen me in pain having been bullied and he didn't want to subject me to that because it's a cruel world out in the so social media and he was trying to protect me. Did I listen to him? No. I just got a friend to do my video.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, sometimes people give you good advice. Sometimes they give you advice because they really love and care for you. And sometimes it's good to listen and sometimes you need to know when not to listen, "Thank you so much for your input. I love you, but I'm going to go for it anyway." So you know that's okay. Because I want to make sure we get your story here, because definitely, I'm curious about what you were just talking about. So Project Runway, the second time almost on an athletic level of research. And on Project Runway, you got pretty much all the way, I think, what? Runner up, I think was it. But during that Project Runway, I feel like you found your calling. Call it divine calling from karma, the universe. So tell listeners how you picked up something that other people didn't want. It's like, "I don't want this," but you said, "Yes." What was that? What was your yes to?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So when I went to Project Runway, I actually was shot up like twice in the arm because I had nerve, I had rotator cuff things. So I was like, "I don't know how long I would survive." And every challenge, I got there and I felt blessed. When I got on the Runway, it was just like ... And I could have been gone home, I looked around and I just took it in. And I felt blessed that I had made it. But once I was there and I'm like, "Okay, you made it, Well, guess what? You're not ready to go home yet." And I just stayed so focused on not worrying about other people but just what I could do.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So one of the challenges, it's called Client Challenges and they bring outside people. Well, for our Client Challenge, there was Olympians and Paralympians. And they come down the runway and there is Tatyana McFadden, a Paralympian in a wheelchair. She is the world's fastest female marathoner, success story, in the world. There's actually a federal law, Tatyana's Law. And I saw her and I jumped out of my seat and I started to pull that energy to the universe, looking, looking, and like, "I need to get her. This is why I'm on Project Runway." I knew it that moment, I knew it. And I asked her, I said, "Did you see me?" Just I must have looked like a crazy woman just staring at her.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And they were randomly pulling names out. And when I got her, I screamed of joy. I'm reliving that and I know some of my other designers were probably so ... See, this is my problem as I think about it. I called them the other designers, they were competitors, right? We were competing, but the other designers, they were probably relieved not to have to deal with that. But I knew, I knew enough from my little experience at Drexel studying a little bit about adaptive design that I had to approach this differently. So you have 30 minutes to sketch the look. Well, I knew I had to split it, not only in the aesthetics but functionality.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So I was asking her function and this is a one-day challenge and they knew what they wanted. They had plenty of time to prepare and this was supposed to be for the Tokyo Olympics, red carpet look. She wanted a train. She wanted this. She had so many things and I'm like, "Great." And at that point, Project Runway did not exist. I was there to fulfill Tatyana's fantasy, not only aesthetically, but function-wise and that's what I did and then it changed my life.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have, co-hosted 110 episodes-ish of this show. And, Nancy, that story that you just told is the first time and I still have them, it's the first time I got chills. To hear you tell that story on the heels of everything that you've talked to or about up until then, it still has physically moved me to hear you talk about that because it's not just you finding your second act, you finding the answers to all those questions you had since you were a little girl who was sewing, but you poured it in to helping other people. And I can see, I can hear in your voice, hopefully listeners, you can hear in Nancy's voice, just how moved she was by that experience. I'm going to let Warwick talk because I'm still moved by it myself.




Warwick Fairfax:

No, that's actually well said, Gary. You had ever, since you were young, just this ... There were embers there waiting to burst into a forest fire for fashion, but here, you connected fashion to, I would say, a God-given calling, a universe-given calling to empower those who are not as fortunate, those with disabilities, those who may be marginalized in society. So you've got your creative fashion talents and desires and you found a way to help people. And while other people might have said, "Phew, I'm glad it wasn't me," you were leaping for joining it.




Warwick Fairfax:

I love what you said, it wasn't about, "Oh, gee, if I do a good job with this Paralympian, this will put me on the map and it will help my business get to the next level." That was the furthest thought from your mind. "I can help this woman," is what you were thinking. "I can help this Paralympic athlete. I can help her feel better about herself and empower her." And you were doing it for all the right reasons, which I think is just wonderful. Does that make sense? I want listeners to hear your motivation. It wasn't about fame and success, it was to help that person.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

I'm just reliving it, I'm getting very emotional, because it was such a defining moment. Fashion can be really powerful. It's not just about clothes. And I think because so many times in my life I didn't feel like I fit in, having been bullied, feeling damaged or just who knows what has driven me, and again, I didn't know, again understand why I had this need to be a relevant designer. Even at Drexel, people always ask me, "What are you going to do when you graduate?" I think it's because like, "What's this old person doing here? This is a hard program."




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And my gift was not to answer the question because I was goal oriented. I said, "I just want to be relevant. There's got to be a reason why this 61-year-old person gets to be a fashion designer. It can't be about making more clothes. There's got to be a reason I'm doing it." And it was that moment on Project Runway. It was like, "Yes, this is it, understanding that fashion is powerful and everybody should have theability to express themselves and their individuality and get empowered and feel beautiful from the inside outside. And if fashion's the way they do it, why do they not get that opportunity?" I can remember talking to one of the judges after Project Runway with another thing I did and she said, "Oh, even on Project Runway and what you're doing now, you're a decade ahead. You're the future. You're a decade ahead." And I went...




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And all of a sudden, I used to think, "That would be great to be called the future of fashion." And I'm like, "No, I don't want to be the future of fashion. I want to be the now of fashion. Why should the disabled or anybody with a medical issue or the different type body have to wait for the future? Why can't it be now?" And that's what happened and it impacted my finale collection. It impacted when I finished the show. Even during the pandemic, it's really my compass of what I need and should be doing.




Warwick Fairfax:

What you're saying there, Nancy, to me is the true life of significance. It's not about power, fame. It's not about, "Oh, you could be the future of fashion," I think it's almost like, "I could care less. I'm focused on helping and empowering these people." Not to get too religious here, but certainly, Jesus talks about caring for the least of these, the despised, the marginalized. I'm sure, in other religions, there's that kind of thought, is you were motivated to care for people that others maybe don't care about. It was all about helping people. If that brings you awards, that's fine. That's okay. But it wasn't about, "Oh, Nancy Volpe Beringer is the future of fashion." It's like, "Okay, whatever." I wouldn't say it's meaningless, but it's like a drop in the bucket compared to helping that Paralympian and other people who may be looked down upon.




Warwick Fairfax:

So I think that's, to me, what a true life of significance is. It's using every creative talent that you were born with in service of a greater good. And to me, as we've said on this podcast and elsewhere, everybody wants joy and fulfillment everybody on the planet, "Well, how do I get it?" Well, doesn't come from being a narcissist and just getting rich for the sake of it because you will not be happy and joyful. Every psychologist on the planet will tell you, "It doesn't work." The only way to be joyful and fulfilled is to do what you are doing. It doesn't mean everybody has to be in fashion design, but conceptually, you are using your creative talents in service of others that you feel a universe or God-given calling to help.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so that gives you, I'm sure, joy and fulfillment. Not to put words in your mouth, it's probably how to describe it. Is that a fair description of you, if you don't mind me putting it that way?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

No, that's perfect. It does bring me joy and fulfillment, and again, you want to be happy. I can remember always saying, "Why is life so hard? Why is life so hard?" It just seemed like life was so hard. Even when you're being successful, it's hard. And even though I was working the 80 hours, 100 hours in pain every day, life wasn't hard. Life was being fulfilled, but I also believe within me is that, again, I don't know what happens later and all that, but I just feel like you need to leave this universe, this planet, your life having done something to help others, to just have some mark left that you made a difference, even if it's in a few lives beyond your immediate family for me. Where I always knew there was something else in me thatwas unfulfilled, that's where this has taken me.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

I know as much as I'm having so many roadblocks, and again, the pandemic has impacted all of us. Thursday, March 12th, was the finale on the air. I was supposed to go where I got to celebrate on top of the world. I was going to go to Nova Scotia for an adaptive festival. I had this. I did a lot of charity work, all this stuff. I have not seen a client or created a new thing with a client in over two years. I do a lot of care taking for some high-risk people in my family and so safety has been first. So all that went away, where I thought I was going to be. It disappeared, but then other doors opened up. I had other tragedies. I was displaced. There was a fire where I was living and had my studio. We were all displaced. I had nowhere to go. And right in the middle of the pandemic, there was a premature ... My granddaughter was born. I became in this tightest little safety pod, but all this happened again for a reason.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And as silly as it seems, if you really allow yourself to look beyond and be open, so here's the fire. I have my little team. I have a couple people with trash bags putting all my designs, all my clothes, personal things in trash bags, getting it out of this building over a one week. We had five days, one freight elevator, no electricity and I found a rental. I was fortunate that I could do that and it had all these entrances, so we could all be safe, but now I have a garage filled with everything and it's a mess. And then what happened was I went, "All my work, I have too much stuff. I have too much stuff. Look at all these clothes I have from all this thrifting and consigning. What am I going to do with all this?"




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

And then because I wasn't making money through fashion with the pandemic, I thought, "Well, I'm going to sell my personal clothes and designs, they're amazing, to raise money, to create an adaptive line for the disabled." And one morning, I woke up and I said, "Why are you waiting?" I started researching and I decided I wasn't going to sell it elsewhere. I try to do my own platform. I start researching and nowhere in the world that I can find, and which is really hard in fashion, is there a resale, and again this is luxury items, that care and will adapt the items for the disabled as part of just the service? So that fire and having all these clothes and everything stuffed in bags and unpacking saying, "I have too much stuff. I'm going to sell it to raise money," that's opened up this whole world of The Vault and trying to really advocate and that's where I'm at.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

I'm starting at the bottom. It's rough because I can't go to ... Again, I don't go to events yet. I'm very isolated in some ways, but I just had this great opportunity. I just named a finalist for a brand new retail concept for Fashion Group International where they honored top designers, so things might happen. But again, it was, what somebody thought a challenge, a tragedy, a fire and then I moved in the new place and I've had two tornadoes, I've had a hurricane, I've had a collapsed ceiling in here, that just keeps coming, but it's okay. That's all okay and I don't know why I could keep smiling and laughing.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, what's remarkable about what you're saying is you're turning setbacks into blessings, blessings for others. That's taking creativity almost to the ultimate level. You have a really remarkable story of hope and meaning and you live in the moment, you love fashion, but you're using fashion to empower and help people. And it seems like you've had setbacks in the recent years, but you can still smile. That's remarkable. Rather than, "Oh, woe is me," "I was on the cusp of I don't know what, but okay, stuff happens. What can we do with it?" You can still smile. So I think, I don't know your attitude is really remarkable. I think we can all learn from your creativity, your adaptability. If I can misuse that word, if you don't mind, you're very adaptable in your thinking and your ability to turn tragedy into triumph, if you will.




Gary Schneeberger:

You just stole my line that I wrote down. You can see it here. It's on the bottom right there, "How wonderful that someone who works in adaptive fashion has lived an adaptive life." I've been waiting for 15 minutes to say that and you took it.




Warwick Fairfax:

Sorry about that.




Gary Schneeberger:

Good for you.




Warwick Fairfax:

Sorry.




Gary Schneeberger:

No, that right there says just how inspirational you are, Nancy. And this is the time in the show where I would normally say something like, "The captain's turned on the fasten seatbelt sign and we've begun our descent. We got to land the plane," but instead, in honor of Project Runway, I'm going to say, "That sound you just heard was Tim Gunn saying, 'Make it work.'" So we're at a point where we're going to wrap up here in a minute, but I want to say one thing before I let you tell listeners how they can find out more about your work and about you. I've said this a lot on the show, which is always a blessing. I've asked listeners to go back and watch the video on YouTube, so they can see the guests smile, even as they are talking about some truly difficult crucibles.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I thought I was going to say that about you, but they don't have to go watch it on video because they can hear it in your voice. Your smile comes through your voice, as you're describing really tough things that have happened to you. You're smiling because, I think, you're in that second act of significance and it puts the other stuff in perspective. It didn't happen to you, it happened for you and you've leveraged that to help other people. So I would be remiss if I did not say this, so how can people find out more about you and your collections, Nancy?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So well, there's a couple different ways. I'm on Instagram as @thevaultbyvolpeberinger and also @nancyvolpeberinger. And I also have matching websites. My original designs are on nancyvolpeberinger.com or thevaultbyvolpeberinger.com that's also channeled into Facebook. You can contact me, email me the same way. I do have to tell you as much as my son feared social media, social media has been my blessing through the pandemic. And so I welcome anyone to reach out. I get such inspirational messages from around the world. I answer every one of them and they have kept me ... They have kept the smile when the days you don't want to get out of bed and it just feels too hard, people connect with me and I so appreciate it




Gary Schneeberger:

As a guy whose last name is Schneeberger, let me make sure that listeners know how exactly to spell your name. So when they go www, dot, spell it out for them so they can get you.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So it's Nancy Volpe, V as in Victor, O-L-P-E, Beringer, B-E-R-I-N-G-E-R. And again, it's The Vault by Volpe Beringer.




Gary Schneeberger:

Fantastic. Warwick, I don't know how you're going to find just one last question. It's your show. You can ask five last questions if you want, but it's back to you.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's all good. Well, Nancy, thank you so much. What's really inspiring ... Everything you're doing is inspiring. You have this comment, "Follow your dreams. Make fear your friend." I think another site I saw, the Age Fifty-Nine site celebrating stories of people who are 59 and over. So for those who might feel like, "Life's passed me by. It's too late," talk about why they should think differently, whether they're in their 40s, 50s, 60s, heck 70s or 80s, who knows, whatever the age is. What's the message of hope that you would give them along the lines of, "Follow your dreams. Make for your friend"? What's a message of hope for those who feel like, "I'm too old. Second act is never going to happen to me. I need to stuff those dreams deep, deep down and not let them out"? What's a message of hope for people like that?




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

Well, I think one key thing is to surround yourself with positive people believers, people who believe in you. Again, when my one son discouraged me from doing it, he's out of the picture. I surrounded myself with people who believed me. He believes in me now. He's all there, but to follow their dreams and they can be small. It's surround yourself with positive people. Being positive, especially in the world we live in, is extremely difficult and I would say that's key. And the fearlessness.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

Again, when Elaine Welteroth, the judge, was promoting the show for our season and she was talking about this senior person on the show, she said, "She's fearless." Somebody says, she said, "Make fear your friend," and I didn't realize I did that all along. When I was that little 11, 12-year-old signing up for the sewing class, the other class I signed up for, this extremely shy person, was a public speaking class. "Huh? What? Makes no sense." That was a fear.




Nancy Volpe Beringer:

So I've always challenged myself in where I have been afraid, it hasn't stopped me. So it's okay to feel the fear, but don't let it stop you. And again, surround yourself with positivity even if it's just from yourself, even if you don't have other people. Write down words of positivity. Believe in yourself. When you stop believing yourself, that's where it's hard to keep going.




Warwick Fairfax:

I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word on the subject has been spoken and, Nancy, you've just spoken. Listeners, thank you for spending this time with us on Beyond the Crucible. We know, we discussed it here, how difficult crucibles can be, how painful they can be. We also know the power. We've heard the power. I felt the power of Nancy's second-act significance. It is never too late to start a second act. And she is inspiring, rejoicing proof and evidence of that, not just to have a second act, but to have it be truly deeply, movingly, meaningfully significant.




Warwick Fairfax:

So until the next time we are together, do remember that your crucible experiences are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning of a new story if you learn the lessons from them and apply them moving forward. And the reason why that's true is that where you will be taken as you learn the lessons of your crucible and move forward is to a place that you may not even know what it is at the moment. Nancy didn't know where her place was going to be when she felt the tug to go, to move, to change, but where it's led her and where it can lead you is to a life of significance.

John Busacker thought he was having a heart attack when severe chest pains while he was driving home sent him to the emergency room.  But he wasn’t dying; he was grieving. That’s what he discovered after a doctor gave him a clean bill of physical health … and he realized he had some work to do on his emotional health. Busacker describes how the deaths of his parents, his mother-in-law and several other relatives and friends in a span of just seven months made him realize he needed to slow down his pace of life and work. After a successful run in the worlds of financial services and leadership development, he has slowed to a walk that allows him to come alongside a different breed of client and help them find their true calling and finish well.

To learn more about John Busacker and to buy his book GASPING FOR BREATH, visit www.johnbusacker.com.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




John Busacker:

It turns out there was nothing wrong with my heart. I was not having a heart attack, there was nothing structurally going on. It was an unusual occurrence but what was happening was that the grief that was inside was finding its way out. Our bodies don't lie. And so, even though I thought that I was processing this, talking about this, there was a lot of things inside that it just found its way out right into the center of my chest, and it's causing me to gasp literally to gasp for breath.




Gary Schneeberger:

John Busacker wasn't dying, he was grieving. That's what he discovered after a doctor gave him a clean bill of health, and he realized he had some work to do on his emotional health. Hi, I'm Gary Schneebergercohost of the show. On this week's episode of our series second act significance, John describes how the deaths of his parents, his mother-in-law, and several other relatives and friends, in a span of just seven months, made him realize he needed to slow down the pace of his life and work. After a successful run in the world of financial services and leadership development, he has slowed to a walk that allows him to come alongside a different breed of clients, and help them to find their true calm and finish well. John Busacker has found second act significance, and you can, too.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, John, thank you so much for being here, it's an honor to have you.




John Busacker:

My pleasure, thanks for having me on today.




Warwick Fairfax:

John, there's a lot to talk about, I have to say, I love the title of your book, Gasping for Breath: Inviting God's Spirit into Your Overwhelmed Life. I mean, we could talk a lot about that, because most people are overwhelmed. And even people of faith tend not to do that, they just truck on with life and "Hey, God, I got it," which you never have it. And you certainly don't have it when you hit a wall. But before we get to that, I know you've got some interesting beats to your story. I understand you're originally from Wisconsin, where I know Gary's from. So just talk a bit about, if you will, the origin story of John Busacker and the strands that led you to pursue a career in leadership development, human development. And there's always an origin story of what led you to be so passionate about what you do.




John Busacker:

Yeah, my wife Carol and I both grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, we're actually high school sweethearts. Yes, and Gary, we've been married for about 42 and a half years now. So, yeah, I graduated from a small liberal arts college and it was a degree undergraduate degree in psychology and education. The first couple of years out of university, I was a high school educator and counselor, and then made a career change into financial services where I surprisingly was good at it. It was a surprise to me, because I'm a total right brainer. I can't balance my own checkbook with a calculator but I actually loved the conversation with people around money and found that in the context of finances, you can learn a lot about people, their hopes and dreams, their fears and failures, the things that they're most passionate about. There's often a sense of shame around money and all of those issues were deeply of interest to me.




John Busacker:

And so, I always partnered with someone that could do the math of financial services and what I was always interested in was the story behind why they do what they do with their finances. In the context ofthat Carol and I lived in Cleveland, Ohio for a couple of years. We lived in Seattle, Washington for six years, and we moved 1991 to the Minneapolis area. Shortly after we got here, the firm that I was a part of, I was a part of a leadership team, we hired a leadership development consultant to come in and work with our team and he did great work. And I found him to be personally really interesting, he had a big world view, traveled internationally, took groups of people every year to Sub Saharan Africa, that's what lit the fuse on that for me.




John Busacker:

And so, over the course of the next year, a conversation here, a breakfast there, they ended up asking and I ended up taking a complete flyer and going into the field of leadership development with this small firm that he was one of the two principal founders of. I wasn't dissatisfied with what I was doing in financial services, I wouldn't say that I burned out, I would say I was rusting out. I wasn't overdoing, I was under being, I was just atrophying because I was replicating year after year, the work I was doing very successfully, but was just rusted, a little bit bored. And so, that's what led me into leadership development, human development 26 years ago now.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, here you are, you're in the finance world, which I find it fascinating to be in the finance world and not be interested in numbers. But I get it, because a lot of finance people are just here's the financial plan, but they're not really focused on what is it you want out of life. That financial plan has to be built around goals, hopes, dreams, not just needs and clearly you cater to that well. And then you had this turn, was your earlier company Inventure Group was that part of the pivot was that after the pivot from finance?




John Busacker:

It's Inventure Group is the group that I joined when I pivoted from financial services to join this firm, I was the sixth partner when I joined the Inventure Group. They had been in existence for five years when I joined them.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so, tell us a bit about that. It's leadership development, what kind of work did you do at Inventure?




John Busacker:

Leadership development is a big bucket and there's a lot of different facets of leadership development. Our expertise was on the human side of leadership development. And so, I would actually call it more life planning but called it leadership development, because it was more palatable to organizations to come in as a leadership development person than as a life planner. And so, we focused on the human side of leadership development, who you are and how you carry yourself with character and integrity and consistency as a person so that people might actually want to follow you.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, in this whole process, you were writing books. So where does that all fall? I think one of your earlier books was Dare To Answer: 8 Questions To Awaken Your Faith. And while we're on that, where did your faith journey kind of intersect with your career journey? Because the track you were on, you don't tend to think of somebody on that track writing a book about faith, if you will. So, how did that all weave itself into your journey?




John Busacker:

When we moved to Minneapolis, shortly after we moved here, I was asked several times by a friend to attend a course that was taught by an older gentleman, he at the time was 75 years old. So, I grew up in a faithful family, Sunday going to church sort of family, Lutheran roots background. But even though I had grown up in that family and had pretty faithfully attended church all of my life, from the time I was a little boy, I had never read the scripture. Which is not uncommon for mainline denominations, Lutherans, Catholics, Presbyterian, a lot of mainline Christians don't actually spend a lot of time in the book.




John Busacker:

So, I was asked to attend this class taught by this older gentleman who had been for 35 years a missionary in Africa. And he had brought a course that he had started in South Africa to teach teachers to teach scripture to the United States, to Minneapolis specifically. And so, finally, reluctantly, after being asked several times, I reluctantly agreed to attend the class, thinking I was just going to attend the overview of the class and then not continue on with it. Because I had heard stories about this guy, he was kind of a tough old bird. He took people cover to cover through scripture in one year. And the way that he taught was when you came to the class, you had to come prepared with a paper to gain entry into the lecture.




John Busacker:

So, he was going to be lecturing that evening, he would give you the topic that he was going to cover in one week in advance. You would do your own research on the topic that he was going to lecture on and then come with the typewritten paper. He would stand at the door with his hand out and say, "If you showed up without a paper, he'd go I hope you come back next week," and so, you couldn't gain entry. It was in the context of that, actually, that about halfway through that class, his name was Monty. He said, "When you do your leadership development things, what do you leave behind?" I said, "Oh, we've got course materials and handouts and some assessments that we've developed." And he said, "You should write a book, I've been reading your writing now for six months, you should write."




John Busacker:

It was really at his encouragement, I had never considered doing that before. And so, it was actually with his encouragement and the shepherding of another person that I wrote my first book, which was originally titled 8 Questions God Can't Answer, which took a look at, the publisher didn't like that title. I love the title, actually, but it took a look at Jesus give or take asks about 125 discrete questions in the four gospels. It was His primary method of teaching, not just because He was a Rabbinic Jew, but because it was His way of inviting people closer in. When I think about the leaders that I admire, the coaches that are really good coaches, the people that are most interesting to me, they ask great questions and then they listen. And that's what Jesus did. And so, I wrote a book on initially, the first book on eight of His most, for me, personally perplexing questions, and that's how the writing journey began.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's really quite fascinating. So this almost sounds like a college course, except it was at a church. I mean, that's just staggering you have to write a paper, I guess high expectations maybe leads to high performance from the whole nother leadership development truism. So, from what I understand, this book, you ask leaders some pretty challenging questions. What do you want? What does God want from you? Why are you so afraid? I love that question, why are you so afraid? I mean, what does that question mean? That's a fascinating question to ask.




John Busacker:

Well, think about the context of that particular question. All of the questions in the book on the surface are not that difficult. So that question is asked, the context of that one is, Jesus is in a boat they're going across a lake in the middle of the night. A big storm blows up, the boat is about to sink, the people in the boat are deathly afraid, Jesus is asleep. They wake Him up, and he says, "Why are you so afraid?" Well, the obvious on the surface answer is we're about to die, we're about to go down. And so, the context of that particular story, though, which is really interesting, and certainly applicable beyond just that story is, they're going from one side of the lake to the other. And on the other side of the lake are non-Jewish people.




John Busacker:

And so, he's taken this Jewish following of his, and they're crossing the lake to the other side to an area where people would typically never go, that he's got in the boat with him. And so, it's not just physically the storm, the question is why are you so afraid? And the question behind the question, what he had asked them to do is, let's go over to the other side. And so, the question that I've asked of groups, different groups, when I talk them through that story is what's the other side for you? What's the other side? And so, I did that once with a group of leaders from a large church here in the Twin Cities, had their staff for a staff retreat. And I asked that question, I said, "Just have a conversation in your small group about that question for a couple of minutes."




John Busacker:

And there was this uncomfortable shifting and shuffling in the room, I could just tell that I had poked the bear with that question. And so, I called them back and I said, "What's going on here in the room?" I can just tell that this is an uncomfortable question. It didn't seem like it was that, and they said, "Well, truthfully, the other side for us is actually literally right across the street, right across the street from our church is low-income housing." And we've been wanting them, their children to come over to be a part of our kids' ministry. But when they've come over in the past, the room is a little bit messier and a couple of things have gone missing and so the other side for us is figuring out how to actually love and not be judgmental and actually walk out what we say we're wanting to walk out in our mission statement of our church, when it's going to be a little bit messy. That's the other side.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, that's a fascinating question. So, do you incorporate some of the questions and thinking in this book Dare to Answer, at least back with Inventure in your wider leadership development? I could see you, you could be easily asking, so in your life and your company, what's the other side for you? I can easily see you using that question in a broader context. Did you do that in a sense, try to weave in some of the thinking?




John Busacker:

Yeah, I've been fortunate to work actually primarily in, I'll call it the secular environment with large organizations, global organizations in leadership development, not primarily in churches or faith communities. And the truths embedded in those questions for example, transcend just working with a church staff or in faith community. They certainly fit working with a medical device company of organization, leaders there, trying to figure out how to go into a new and global environment for example. What are you afraid of? What's the other side in that?




Gary Schneeberger:

And one of the things I love about that question and in the context of our series right now, second act significance, is that's a very pivotal question. If you're pondering moving from your first act in life to a new act in life to a second act in life, there's a lot of unknowns between the first act and the second act. There's a lot of unknowns about, okay, my heart feels like it really wants to do this. I feel like I'm really called to do this even if there's no crucible involved, even if you're very successful in what that first act is. Yet there's this idea that pursuing your heart pursuing your life's calling that you feel, that can come with a lot of what am I so afraid of? Can't it?




John Busacker:

Yes. Yeah. So, Richard Rohr is an author that I like to read quite a bit. He's a Franciscan priest, and he talks quite a bit about liminal space, so the Latin word limin is threshold, where you're standing on the threshold and you know something is ending or something should be ending or wants to end. But what's next hasn't yet begun. And so, you're in this liminal space just betwixt, in between space which is uncomfortable. It's a time of questions more than answers, it's a time where you will have this smoldering discontent where you know that it's probably time to move on to something new or but you're in between and what's next isn't isn't clear. And so, and yet my own life experience, I think that of many people is that that liminal space, if we're paying attention and if we're patient, is actually where some of the greatest learning occurs.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's a fascinating statement. Why is that? Why do you feel like maybe based on your own experience? Why is that liminal space, some of the most valuable space?




John Busacker:

Because we're forced often to let go of the illusion of certainty. Like, we thought we had the answer, we thought we knew, we thought, we were so certain about this. And that's like, oops, it actually isn't that, okay. And so, in my own experiences of making career changes, for example, or different life experiences, things that I thought I was clear about, maybe I was at the time, but they became less clear in that space. And then I grew into a new understanding, a new learning. And hopefully, I say this with a certain amount of trepidation, hopefully that continues, right? Even though again, that in between space is uncomfortable.




Warwick Fairfax:

So really, this foretells, I think your own liminal experience it's coming up. But before we get there, because you have almost a story in books. I think in 2013, you wrote this fascinating book, Do Less, Be More, which I don't know whether you look at that book with some irony, given what happened after that. Maybe God has a sense of humor but before we just tease the listeners why is that ironic? Well, you'll hear pretty soon. But tell us a bit about what made you write that book and just some of the key thoughts.




John Busacker:

I was still in financial services at the time, it was this body of work that I've created called Life Based Financial Planning. And what it was really was, the work that I did with clients codified into a set of tools to help them look at the emotional side of financial planning. It had nothing to do with retirement calculators or that kind of stuff, it actually asked about your values and about your purpose and your dreams, and who gives you wisdom. And there were six different discrete tools, and so, actually the book Do Less, Be More is a print version of a lot of the thought that went into creating those tools to help people be clear on what matters most of them. And to what are they called and what are their core values and who is their sounding board? And each one of those is a chapter and those all come from the tools that I created to work with financial service clients.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, I love some of the questions that you have if what I understand in the book, what is it you feel called to do? What are the core values that you want to live out? How do you know if you're in or out of alignment with those values? And what is the vision for your life and your work? I mean, most people, a lot of people in the business world are very driven, but they don't think or reflect, "Hey, that I can get a good career as an accountant but I don't know that I really love accounting but it pays the bills and off I go." It's all very practical, parents tended to be all about the practical, get a job, be sensible, pay the mortgage, pay the bills, support the family, forget about this whole vision, calling stuff so.




Gary Schneeberger:

And listener, I want to make sure the listener heard what Warwick just said when he read the questions from John's book. Because if you've listened to this podcast, even three times, you've heard the exact words come out of Warwick's mouth, talking about the importance of being called to something. What are you called to? What are your core values? How do you know if you're in alignment with those values? And then what's your vision for your life? Those are building blocks of crucible leadership, building blocks of a life of significance. And it's one of my supreme joys as co-host of this show, is to have two guests, or to have a guest and the host who have different stories.




Gary Schneeberger:

Last time I checked John in your bio, you did not lose $2.25 billion in a failed takeover of your family media dynasty, but-




John Busacker:

Not yet.




Gary Schneeberger:

Even though their details are different, the emotions that undergird them, not just the emotions of what it feels like in the pain, but in the bouncing back and the moving forward and achieving that life of significance are so, so similar. So, listener, circumstances can be different, emotions are the same focus on those as you listen to these conversations.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's so well said it's funny as you're talking about that Gary, I think, with in executive coaching as I mentioned, I'm an International Coach, Federation certified coach, I would talk about values. And I would sometimes ask my clients this question. So, tell me what your core values are? And I'd explain them and they'd say, "So, to what degree are you living in alignment with those values?" And sometimes they'd say, "Well, not much." So, as an executive coach, where I'm not here to impose my beliefs on the client, I'd say, "So, would you prefer to change your core values to bring them in alignment with how you live, or change how you live, to bring them in alignment with your core values?"




Warwick Fairfax:

As a coach, I don't really care which one you pick, well, how many sane people are going to say, "Oh, that's a good point, I need to change my core values to make sure I'm living in alignment with them." Just sort of go backwards, that would be like, you'd need a psychologist or psychiatrist to help you there. But that's a fascinating question. So, how did you find clients and those you talk to respond to these questions in a world where it's so hectic and busy, we don't think about calling or values and living in alignment with them. These are questions that may make sense to us but for many people these are radical, I think I barely understand the question and I don't want to answer them because I'm afraid of the answers. And you're talking about this whole liminal storm stuff, and I'd rather ignore it, I'd rather keep going and close my eyes so, no more questions, John. How did you find people, how did they deal with this liminal space when you ask these really penetrating questions?




John Busacker:

It was interesting. So initially, the audience for what was behind the writing of that book, were financial advisors. To equip them to ask those sort of questions of their clients when they were preparing financial plans. And so, they weren't merely asking their clients, how much money do you want to have when you retire and when do you want to retire? The question became, what is retirement? If you're living in alignment with your values, it's not so much a mathematical equation to be solved. It's a life to be lived, where money is the part of the fuel that fuels the life that you actually want to live. And I found that initially, not very many financial advisors wanted to have that conversation with their client.




John Busacker:

And in fact, most of them didn't want to have it with themselves, because they were afraid that they would get down a dark alley with their client that they wouldn't be able to extricate themselves from. They were afraid that they would ask a question that they actually hadn't pondered themselves, or that the client didn't know the answer to. And that would be and that would be frightening, when they were setting themselves up as the expert with the answers in their financial plan. That has shifted some with time with financial advice, for example, as it has become more of a commodity. In order for advisors to really create relationships that are sticky with their clients they need to provide more than just numbers.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I can imagine. You ask those sorts of questions, some clients going like, "I came to you for financial plan, not spiritual advice, what the heck are you doing?" There's that fear, so let's fast forward because life was going great, it would seem you're doing well and leadership development, you're writing these books. And it would seem like everything's pretty rosy. But then you hit a patch, I think about five years ago, in which in seven months, you went through a whole stack of tragedies. So, just talk about those seven months and how that was a crucible, if not pivot point in your life, even though it seemed like life was going pretty well.




John Busacker:

Life was going well. Carol and I, I lost all three of our remaining parents, as well as several close friends, as well as a sister-in-law in seven months, in 2017. So, we went from having three parents, two of whom were seemingly healthy. Carol's, my mother-in-law had Parkinson's and so she was unhealthy. But my father and my mother were both seemingly healthy, pretty healthy, older adults 89 years old, each of them, both of them. And all three of our remaining parents passed away. My mother-in-law and my father two weeks apart, in February of 2017. And then seven months later, my mom passed, she was the seventh of the seventh person in that span to pass.




John Busacker:

And so, it was a time not just during those seven months, but for a pretty significant period of time following that of really deep grief. And grief is not a linear process, it comes and it goes and it shows up unexpectedly, with a word or a song or a smell or an experience remembered. So, for example, every time I would travel, any significant trip I would take, I would always call my parents when I got home, to tell them that I was home. And then after my mother had passed, I found myself just instinctively picking up the phone to call her when I returned, realizing she's not there anymore. Which just would again trigger this sense of loss, of grief.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, that makes sense. I know obviously, a lot of our listeners, sadly have gone through grief, whether it's losing a loved one or other tragedies. But it seems like there was almost a crystallization of this grief if you will, in a car trip. So, talk about that car trip that was, I don't know if that's a liminal event, it was certainly a big event, it would seem like in your life. So, talk about that car trip and the significance of it.




John Busacker:

The experience that you're referring to is, so my mother passed away on November 1st of 2017 and in December, I was driving home from a series of appointments in downtown Minneapolis. I felt like I had been processing all of this well. Carol and I were having really wonderful conversations with each other, some of the best conversations in our married life about the next stage of our own life together. And we felt like we had, we didn't just feel we did finish well with our parents, which was our mantra when they were ill and passing. We wanted to finish well with them to not leave unsaid things that we wanted to say, to not say anything in anger or bitterness or impatience at the end of their life that we'd regret after they passed. And so, we'd finished well with them.




John Busacker:

So, I had had these series of business appointments, they had gone really well, I was optimistic about a new business relationship that was just forming. I was just about two miles from our house late afternoon, when all of a sudden, I felt this visceral pressure in my chest, like an anvil setting on my chest and I started to sweat. And I could just feel my blood pressure rising, I thought I was having a heart attack. And so, I did what any normal person would do, I pull them to the local food store, because they have a free blood pressure cuff in the lobby, I thought I should probably check this out. And so, I took my blood pressure and sure enough it was off the charts, I rang the bell, in the local Cub Foods.




John Busacker:

So, when I got home, I walked in and asked as casually as I could of Carol, who was a cardiac intensive care nurse by background. I said, "How late do you think our doctor's office is open?" She of course, knowing that that was not a casual question said, "What's going on?" I told her. Within minutes, we were on our way to the emergency room. Turns out, there was nothing wrong with my heart, I was not having a heart attack, there was nothing structurally going on. It was an unusual occurrence but what was happening was that the grief that was inside was finding its way out. Our bodies don't lie and so even though I thought that I was processing this, talking about this, there was a lot of things inside that had just found its way out right into the center of my chest and was causing me to gasp, literally to gasp for breath.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, it's like you weren't really having a heart attack, you're having a grief attack if you will? So, obviously, you're a very smart person. You thought you were processing it, so it wasn't like it seems that you were ignoring it. Some people would just say that, "I don't have time to grief, I got to push through it, I've got people to help, people depending on me, let's keep going a million miles an hour." Were you trying to process it or as you look back, where there things that you weren't doing that you should have been doing? Or was it just one of those things where at some point that just hits you, even though you try to do everything right? So, talk a bit about what happened, any lessons learned, or?




John Busacker:

I think it was the latter Warwick, I think that we'd had a lot of conversations, I had not sought out a therapist or a grief counselor but I had many conversations with Carol and with some close friends about this. I was in conversation fairly regularly, I've one sibling, an older brother and we have talked about how we had finished with our parents. But I think it was a cumulative effect of that many relationships in that short of a period of time. Some of them unexpected, so 89-year-old parents, we knew that they were out of warranty at that point. So, it wasn't completely unexpected even though it was quick, it wasn't completely unexpected.




John Busacker:

But to lose a 64-year-old friend early on in that stream of deaths who had a headache, he was an executive pastor of a church here in town. Had a headache at work, went home, laid down on the couch had a massive brain aneurysm and was gone like that, that was stunning. And so, there were some of those experiences intermixed with so I think just the cumulative effect of all of that just finally came out.




Warwick Fairfax:

But it seems like after those experiences it caused you to take a shift in your life. You were doing well with family, wife, leadership development, you were probably faithful churchgoer, you were doing good in the world. People would say, "Boy I love what John does, he's really making a difference." Everything seemed like it was going well. But yet this caused you to make a shift. Why did this cause you to make a shift, because it's not obvious that you are on the wrong track. Some people are just like, "Oh, John was on a wrong track," but it seemed like you're on the right track. So, why did this cause you to shift?




John Busacker:

Well, two things happened, all of that happened which cause me and us, Carol and me to really think carefully about the next stage of our life. So, I just turned 65 a couple of weeks ago and so, we have a belief, a perspective that we're really in a sweet spot of our life now. Carol and I are both the same age and so we're both healthy, we're active, we have good relationship with our adult sons, we are grandparents. We just got back from spending a couple of weeks of vacation, a portion of which was spent with our adult sons and daughters-in-law and grandchildren. And we're able to do things with them because we're healthy and active, we've been blessed with good genes I guess and eat well, and exercise and all of that.




John Busacker:

But we know that there's a time stamp on that, that that's not going to be forever. And in losing those people, some of them unexpected, some of them younger than us, caused us to be very intentional about asking questions about how we're in a sweet spot right now, how do we want to steward that well, given that God has given us the gift of healthy relationships, healthy bodies, and so forth? So, we feel a responsibility to steward that well. The other thing that happened from a business perspective is I also had a client that was a very significant client of mine with whom I had worked for many years, that had a leadership change. And shortly after that, they called me in and said, "Your services are no longer needed here."




John Busacker:

And so, the grief of losing significant relationships along with losing a significant business relationship that amounted to a pretty significant portion of my income, in addition to a lot of long standing relationships, decades of relationships caused me to really examine okay, you've been given this, you've been given this wonderful gift of liminal space. What are you, what are you learning? Here? What are you going to do with it?




Warwick Fairfax:

So, what was the answer that you felt from the Lord or wherever? What was the answer that came to you in a liminal space? What are you going to do with this time? In your mid-60s? What do you feel like you heard?




John Busacker:

Well, I've done a couple of things, I haven't intentionally worked to recreate all of the business relationships or income that I lost with that relationship, I've intentionally become more discerning about with whom and how I work, I'm working less and enjoying it more.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the things that you told me John, when we talked before the interview was that you don't work with people you don't love, trust or respect. I would think with those guardrails in place, that would tend to maybe have some people to sort of drop off by attrition, right? And never actually get in the door. I think that's a good place to start, again, as you're looking to do what we're calling here second act significance, you want to live, listener the second act of your life significantly, that's a good gateway question to ask yourself. Are you working with, are you surrounding yourself with people you love, trust and respect? That's a good place to start, I think.




John Busacker:

I find that the most, as I look back at all the different organizations and leaders with whom I've really been fortunate to work with, the relationships that were certainly the most enjoyable and fulfilling were ones that had those characteristics. I love, trust and respected the individual leader or the organization, the mission of the organization. Where in the past, it may have been a profitable relationship in terms of financially profitable, but I can think of a number of organizations, a number of years ago with InventureGroup that we work with that it's like and it just kind of drag yourself into the work. Because there was something that was out of alignment, something that we talked about before; our own personal bias or my values were out of alignment with leader more importantly the organizational values. And, so just wasn't a good fit, even though it may have been a profitable, financially profitable relationship, it wasn't enjoyable.




Warwick Fairfax:

I want to ask you about your life work in your current book, but I'm trying to think of a polite way to say it. As listeners know I've written a book, Crucible Leadership Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance. It came out last year. Sometimes you write all this stuff, and we believe in it but actually living what we believe and we write is not always easy. I'm trying to be polite because I struggle myself. I wouldn't have written these words, if I didn't believe in it. But you look back and say, "Well, didn't I write a book about making sure that what we do is in alignment with our values?" Did I miss that chapter or do you look back and say, "Well, I mean, 80% of the time I lived it that way but maybe I." Do you look back a bit and ponder a bit or smile to yourself if you know what I mean?




John Busacker:

Yeah, so those who can't do, write, right? So, certainly I'm a work in process with this. I have with time gotten better, more in alignment more intentional but am I foolproof every day, am I faultless every day? Certainly not. And so, that's where one of the things I wrote about in both, Do Less, Be More as well as in my most recent book Gasping for Breath, I talk quite a little bit about the need for community of not going at it alone. If there's anything in the arena of leadership development that I've banged the drum on consistently for 26 years, it's that the leaders that I've seen get themselves into trouble, that have gotten off the path that have failed sometimes colossally.




John Busacker:

In almost every case, that's happened because they were alone. David goes up on the roof when the army is out fighting the battle, and he sees Bathsheba naked and he goes, "Hey, there ain't nobody around here," and so he was alone. And so, one of the important aspects of something that I am really dutiful and practicing is I have a small group of people that know the good, the bad, and the ugly John. Carol is one and then there's several other people that focus on my spiritual health, my relational health, my business health, my emotional health, and asked me the tough questions and hold my toes to the coals of the commitments that I make.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I think what you're saying John is so important and different ones will do it in different way, whether it's friends at church, loved ones, business folks, sometimes it's one group, sometimes it's a series of groups. Sometimes our loved ones won't understand all the ins and outs of our business world and so, there might be different folks with different expertise. But it's so important, your life isn't meant to be lived alone, because no matter how smart you are, we can be blind to our own faults, failings, fears, which can get in the way of smart people thinking clearly. As people move from my story, when I lost this $2.25 billion dollar takeover at age 26, I had an Oxford undergrad degree and a grad degree from Harvard Business School. In theory, I was meant to be somewhat intelligent but I made colossally bad assumptions, because of emotions and all the other things.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, as we kind of begin to wrap up, just tell us a bit about Life Worth and the heart behind your latest book, Gasping for Breath: Inviting God's Spirit Into Your Overwhelmed Life. Just talk a bit about what's the core purpose, what's your heart behind the book and your mission if you will with Life Worth?




John Busacker:

So, 10 years ago, I was asked whether I'd be willing to coach the senior pastor of the church that we were attending, his name is Dave, David Johnson. And when I was asked, I said, "I don't know because I don't know him. I just knew him at the time as the man who stood up in front of the church, waving his arms wildly and talking too fast for me." Brilliant, brilliant teacher, terrific theologian but I said, coaching, as you know Warwick is a relational thing. There has to be a trusting sort of bond and I didn't know him. And so, I said, let me meet him first for a cup of coffee and see whether there's any connection.




John Busacker:

We met, and within 10 minutes, I knew I didn't want to coach him. I knew I wanted to be his friend, because there was almost this immediate brother from a different mother sort of experience. We were laughing and joking within 10 minutes and I knew this is a guy that I'd like to actually have as a friend and he has become a dear friend. Well fast forward, he retired now, two years ago, almost three years ago, two and a half years ago, and shortly after he retired, he was diagnosed with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis. So, idiopathic, no known cause or cure, pulmonary lungs fibrosis, a hardening or scarring of the lungs. The way that a person passes away from IPF idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis is they suffocate. It's a terrible disease and he was diagnosed with it given two to five years to live at the time.




John Busacker:

And so, I woke up shortly after that, after he had told me of his diagnosis, with a vision. And I don't use that word lightly and I've not often had that experience. But I woke up with a vision to co-author a book with him titled Gasping for Breath. But what was in my mind, and in the vision that I had was based on his physical circumstances. But what we quickly came to is that actually, it is a metaphor for, he didn't want to write about his physical circumstances as much as he wanted to write about how does a person finish well? And by finishing well, I mean, how do you stay strong in the faith? How do you end without being bitter? How do you finish well relationally with the most important people in your life? And so, we set about on November of 2019 to begin to write that book, and then March the following year COVID happened.




John Busacker:

We had no idea how prophetic it would be to write about a book on breathing, using that metaphor, when all of a sudden, the whole world is having a global epidemic and the focus of everybody worldwide is a shortness of breath. So, it's been really remarkable, I think, the way that we both redeemed the time during COVID because all of a sudden, I found myself without nearly as much work and no travel. I mean, before I was on a first name basis at the Delta Sky Club and all of a sudden, I was home in my pajamas in my basement on Zoom with people. And so, we redeemed the time, we wrote the book in a little bit under a year during COVID and had almost daily FaceTime conversations with each other, which has been a tremendous experience to walk alongside my friend as his health has deteriorated during that time.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow, so Gasping for Breath obviously, it has this and I didn't realize this other meaning and the physical side, but then there's a spiritual. Talk about how both for people of faith and people in general, why is it important to gasp for breath? Why is it important, obviously, for people of faith to invite God's Spirit into their lives? Because, as we said earlier, a lot of people they're working very hard, or they're stressed-out, there's a lot of things to be stressed out these days in the world. Whether it's the war on Ukraine, or is COVID going to come back, the economy supply chain. Personal life, business life, there's almost endless lists of things that would make us hyperventilate, if you will, which is not what God wants us to do.




Warwick Fairfax:

But talk about why some of these concepts are so important for the stressed, harried, overworked person that says look, "I don't have time to think. I'm scared, I'm afraid I'm working 24 hours a day, I don't know how I'm going to make ends meet. And I don't know how I'm going to even get up in the morning." Talk about why some of these concepts are important, especially in the world we live in.




John Busacker:

So, I would say that the meat of the book kind of the arc of the book first of all, is from first breath to last breath. So, we talk in the first chapter about first breath and the last chapter, Dave wrote the lion's share of the last chapter, which is last breath. Talking about, his death is, none of us gets out of here alive, but his death is perhaps more imminent than some because of his disease. And so, but the meat of the book, is the chapter that we found the hardest to write. It took us the longest to write and a lot of back and forth and spirited dialogue. And by spirited, I mean argumentative dialogue between Dave and me is on a series of practices. Because his story that he unpacked, some in the book, is 12 years into his ministry, when everything seemingly was going really well, they had become kind of that church that people were traveling to in the United States. It had gone from a couple hundred people to 5,000 in a very short period of time, it was just rocking.




John Busacker:

And they were the church of what's happening now. And so, but he hit the wall, he could not sustain himself in that and so, he realized that he needed to adopt some different practices in order to remain healthy and be able to breathe fully, metaphorically, himself. And my experience of losing the group of people, same experience. We needed to adopt some practices, so we talk about several practices, whether you're a person of faith or not, silence, like just we have no difficulty convincing anybody right now that we live in a noisy world. Like the noise is just nonstop. The news is always shouting all around us, we're never in an environment where there isn't ambient noise. I can't go to a restaurant that doesn't have big screen TVs anymore.




John Busacker:

So, we live in a noisy world so silence, solitude, prayer, or reflection, Sabbath, just taking time where you take your hand off the wheel for at least a short period of time. And reverent wonder, being attentive to the beauty that's all around us, if you're a person of faith, the beauty is God's creation. And so, just being attentive to wow, Carol and I are fortunate to live on a lake in Minnesota. And so, we look out at this lake and the view is never ever the same every day. It's different every day, the sun on the water, the setting of the sun, the ripple on the water, the ice currently on the water. Whether it's overcast or sunny, partly cloudy, it's different every day. So, actually realizing that and being grateful for that, having a sense of gratitude to be able to see and take that in is a practice, which then allows us to take a breath.




Gary Schneeberger:

That sound that that you just heard listener wasn't just John taking a breath. It was the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign indicating that we have begun our descent of the plane to end this conversation but we're not there yet. And one of the reasons that we're not there yet, is I'd be remiss John, if I didn't give you the chance to let listeners know how they can find out more about you how they can find out more about Life Worth and how they can get your book and your books. How might they do that? How might they find you online?




John Busacker:

Well, you can go to my website which is simply johnbusacker.com. So J-O-H-N-B-U-S-A-C-K-E-R.com, johnbusaker.com. There is a separate site for gaspingforbreath, that's gaspingforbreathbook, for is spelled out F-O-R book.com, gaspingforbreathbook.com. So, there's some resources on that site. The John Busacker site has all four of the books that you've referenced today that are on there.




Gary Schneeberger:

All right, Warwick the last couple of questions are yours.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, John thank you. I love the concepts you're talking about silence, Sabbath rest and reverent wonder. We live in this harried world, we're just being silent whether it's prayer, meditation, a walk in nature, taking time off. I'm from Australia, where Australians actually do know how to take time off. No offense, I've lived in America for 30 or more years. So, it's a bit of a skill that can be challenge in the culture here, but just take taking real time off, unplugging. And then just being grateful, it's so easy to be ungrateful or complain. Just what are the things I'm grateful for? It's hard to be in a bad mood if you go through a list of things, you're thankful for. Whether it's just the wonders of nature, friends that you love them. I've been married over 30 years, so grateful as you are with your wife, I'm sure I'm just incredibly grateful to what the Lord brought into my life.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, for those who might be listening, that might be pretty stressed and maybe angry, bitter, how would you crystallize all that into a message of hope to people that may feel like, I don't know if I'm in a liminal space, or just at the bottom of a fiery pit, but I'm in somewhere, I'm somewhere that's really unpleasant. What would be a message of hope that you would offer folks?




John Busacker:

As an afterthought, honestly, with the book Gasping for Breath, we wrote an epilogue to the book. It is a short section from Mark chapter 4 in Scripture, and it was amazingly Dave had been a pastor for 42 years and it was something that in 42 years he'd never preached on and it's a story that I had never paid attention to. So, there's two stories in Mark 4 of the sower with seed. The first one I'd heard countless times, the sower throws out the seed, it lands on four different kinds of soil and only in one doesn't really grow and flourish. There's a second story that goes like this, the kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed uponthe soil, and then he goes to bed at night and falls asleep.




John Busacker:

So, in Scripture, almost always when it refers to falling asleep is referring to dying. It's like asleep or awake, but in this case that's not the case. It's just the essence of the story is this person just does what this person does. He just throws out the seed, and then he goes about it, he falls asleep. But here's the punchline, when he gets up the next day, he discovers the seed had sprouted and grown, but how he himself did not know. And so, for me, and for us in writing the book and for you, if you're watching listening to this podcast, the word of hope is to do what you do, actually. So, to change your child's diapers today, to go about your work a day work today, to just pay attention to the person next to you today. To just to do what you do, and in essence, fall asleep, just let it go, to just throw it out there and to let it go.




John Busacker:

Because the work of having that flourish is not on you, it's actually on God. The seed sprouts and grows but in this story, this parable, this guy has no idea how and in fact he didn't make the seed grow. And so, in my own life and in my own work, I've just been trying more and more, to just do what I do and then let go of the illusion of control or even in some cases of influence. But just do my very best and then to let it go, and trusting that God is faithful and that it will flourish. In many cases, I may not even see that in my own lifetime but it will.




Gary Schneeberger:

I've been in the communications business long enough to know a couple things. One, when the last word on a subject has been spoken, and John Busacker has just spoken it, but I've also been in the communications business long enough to know that the best thing about rules is you can break them. I said that was the last word I'm going to get John to say one more word because I want to frame this up for listeners with a short response from John. We've talked about some acts in your life and you are in we're calling it second act significance. It could be fourth or fifth act, but you're in a new act from where you were, after your heart attack scare that wasn't a heart attack, the grief that you went through. Do you believe that the act you're in now, do you feel a true life of significance, a sense of significance in what you're doing now with that health that you've been given, with that opportunity that you've been given?




John Busacker:

Yes, without question, I feel a sense of calling. So, root word there vocare, to give voice, I feel like I have the opportunity right now in a number of different facets with writing with speaking with having the opportunity to have this conversation. Trusting that it'll go to where it is meant to go and people that are meant to hear it will hear it. A sense of calling a vocare of giving voice to the gifts that God has graciously given me in the time that He's graciously given me and the passion for the things that I'm passionate about right now. I feel called to that so the things that I'm up to right now aren't a job. I'm not doing it for the sake of just earning a buck. In fact, I'm doing more and more that doesn't earn a buck, but have a sense of vocare with a vocation.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well with that the plane is on the ground or since John and I both live on lakes, perhaps the plane has landed, a sea plane has landed on the water. But all that to say, listener our time together this week is over you have spent time with us again as part of our series second act significance. Until the next time we're together, please remember and there's still a couple more episodes in second act significance. So, stay following the show and learning more about how you can find a true-life significance that as John just described in another act and that you don't have to be afraid of it.




Gary Schneeberger:

You don't have to be afraid of pursuing that. We do know as well here at Crucible Leadership that your crucible experiences can be painful, they are often painful, they knock you off your feet, they knocked the wind out of your lungs. But here's the good news, they're not the end of your story in fact, if you learn the lessons of them, if you approach them as this didn't happen to me, it happened for me. The story that you can live after that, the story can be the best story of your life the best chapter in the next story of your life because where it leads is to a life of significance.