Warwick Fairfax, Author at Beyond the Crucible by Warwick Fairfax

In this second part of our best-of series, we talk with Sarah Nannen. With four children under 6 — the youngest just a few months old — Sarah’s life was upended as both a mother and a wife when her husband, an Air Force fighter pilot, was killed in a training accident. A former naval officer herself, she understood how to navigate through the material and logistical details of the tragedy, but needed to learn how to move through the emotional upheaval of instantly becoming a widow and a single mother. In this episode, she tells BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE host and Crucible Leadership founder Warwick Fairfax that she needed to lean into her pain to build a new and hope-filled future. Today she helps others who have been rocked by crucible experiences find the emotional strength to not be defined by their tragedies and setbacks. “There is more to your life,” she says, “than the thing that happened to you.”

Highlights

The day her husband died … and her crucible began (10:21)
How being in the Navy herself helped her navigate the aftermath of her husband’s death (12:29)
The impact on her young children (15:52)
Coping with two tragedies as a widow and mother (16:46)
How she’s helped her children know their father (19:38)
Why she had to reverse-engineer her grief (21:42)
Overcoming the thought that her job was to grieve (23:38)
Healing from a crucible requires grieving over time ((27:35)
Turn toward the difficult emotions of your crucible (29:52)
The power of using language intentionally when discussing your crucible (37:04
A historical perspective on moving beyond surviving (39:20)
Why just surviving is not enough to live a life of significance (40:42)
When she realized she was really happy … and her calling was to help others find the same joy (48:19)
Key episode takeaways (48:19)

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Gary Schneeberger:

We go so far back in our archives on this week's episode of our Beyond the Crucible greatest hits tour that you may notice the format of the show plays out a little bit differently than it does today. But the takeaways for you are as strong as ever, as you meet a woman who lost her husband in an unthinkable tragedy, but did not lose her hope. And she found her herself a new future.




Gary Schneeberger:

Welcome everybody to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. I'm Gary Schneeberger, your co-host and the Communications Director for Crucible Leadership. And you have clicked play on, we hope you've clicked subscribe to, a podcast that deals in what our founder refers to as crucible experiences.




Gary Schneeberger:

Crucible experiences are those moments in life that are painful, those moments in life that are setbacks, failures, traumas, tragedies, things that happen to us, things that sometimes we have a hand in bringing about. The common thread though, of why we talk about crucibles on Beyond the Crucible, is that very reason the show's called that, how do you get beyond your crucible experiences? How do you get through that pain, not just deal with it and kind of shove it down, but how do you get through it? How do you move on to a better place, which we refer to as moving on to building a life of significance? And as we talk about this today, with me is the architect, the Lego master, if you will, of Crucible Leadership, our founder, Warwick Fairfax. Warwick, this is going to be, I think, a meaningful show.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, yeah, very much looking forward to it.




Gary Schneeberger:

So our guest today is Sarah Nannen. And Sarah is the founder of Beyond Surviving, a movement that teaches a proactive and renegade approach to mental health and emotional resilience, while navigating grief and trauma recovery. She became a military widow and solo mother of four in 2014, when an aviation accident claimed her husband's life. Her personal journey through rock bottom now informs her work with those navigating painful life transitions who seek to live extraordinary lives. She's devoted her career to teaching sustainable wellbeing and a new paradigm of deep, systemic integration of mind-body healing to anyone seeking to move beyond surviving the ride of life; to move beyond just surviving that ride of life. Sarah's background as a Naval officer informs her leadership perspective with a community-focused model for cultivating resilience and sustainable wellbeing. She is the founder of Renkon Yoga Studio, and hosts The Other Side of Rock Bottom podcast, which launches this summer. Take it away, Warwick.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, Sarah, thanks so much for being here, really appreciate it. Before we get into your crucible experience, which some people are like, "Yeah, I don't know if I've had a crucible." Sadly, you obviously do understand that, you know what it was, you know the date, it's... But tell us a bit about who you are, Sarah, and how you grew up, and a little bit about your family, and the lead up to your crucible. Just a little about Sarah Nannen.




Sarah Nannen:

Well, Sarah Nannen grew up in Central Illinois, it's in the middle of America, I guess. Good old farm community US of A, small town. Played sports, was pretty smart, played the violin. Went off to college, did the ROTC thing, became a Naval officer, married my college sweetheart. I was four babies in when I found out that he passed, and so I was just sort of doing that average life. My average life looked like living in Japan at the time, we were a military family on the move. He was a fighter pilot, and once I got out of the Navy, my whole job was holding down the fort while he went off and did the fighter pilot Naval aviator thing all over the world. And I had a lot of amazing experience with that. Our kids were five, four, two, and newborn that wild day that upended all of that everyday, average, American dream kind of thing we were doing, and changed the direction of our life forever. So, that's a little bit about me.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. So until that point, and that was obviously the defining crucible of your life, had you had any others? Had life seemed pretty normal? Wonderful family, siblings, parents, grandparents, was it like, "Life is good, I'm blessed", and was that your experience?




Sarah Nannen:

My mother-in-law described us as the golden couple; that we were both high achievers, and everything we envisioned, we managed to create. We were both very successful. Yeah, I grew up with great, supportive family. Everybody was healthy, we were running marathons in our free time, and short of the hardship and the crucible of going on a deployment and being locked on a ship with 300 men for six months, I would say this is certainly the defining crucible experience of my life.




Warwick Fairfax:

So what made you decide to go into the Navy?




Sarah Nannen:

The honest answer is that I did not know what I wanted to be when I grew up.




Warwick Fairfax:

Okay.




Sarah Nannen:

I found myself heading off to the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana with an undecided major and a lot of potential ahead of me. I knew that I could be anything, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't have a passion, a purpose, a direction, but I knew that I loved to travel and I knew that I had always been a natural leader. And so it made perfect sense to go off on an adventure, become a Naval officer, travel the world, and see if I could figure out what was important enough to me on the other side of that. So I ended up majoring in Spanish and business, because that seemed fun and useful enough. I got to study abroad a couple of times and then, upon graduation, off I went to meet my ship on deployment.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. And so it's funny, as listeners would know, that it's ironic that you had a Naval career because, even though I'm from Australia, for some reason, we ended up in Annapolis, Maryland, which, as you would know, is home of the US Naval Academy, so you see a lot of people in their uniforms and they all change... It's one particular day a year when they go from whatever it is, white to blue or other way round?




Sarah Nannen:

Mm-hmm.




Warwick Fairfax:

Navy football is big in our town. So yeah, not my background, but definitely we're a Navy town. So what kind of ships were you deployed on? What was your role in the Navy?




Sarah Nannen:

My ships were rather small, gas turbine frigates, destroyers, cruisers. And my role, surprisingly enough as a Spanish major, was engineering. And that's a unique thing the Navy likes to torture their young officers with, is offering them the role of leadership in an area that they have absolutely no idea what they're doing, and the only training you get is from the people who you're responsible for.




Gary Schneeberger:

That does sound like a government job.




Warwick Fairfax:

It does.




Sarah Nannen:

Yes.




Gary Schneeberger:

For sure.




Warwick Fairfax:

So where did you meet your husband?




Sarah Nannen:

We met the first day of ROTC on campus at the University of Illinois, we both had high school sweethearts coming into college, but we had a connection and a friendship that first semester. And by New Year's Eve, we had ended our high school relationships and started one of our own. So...




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow.




Sarah Nannen:

... we go way back to 2000, was the year that we met in university.




Warwick Fairfax:

So I'm assuming you were never deployed together or anything like that?




Sarah Nannen:

I was a Naval officer, he was a Naval aviator, but he was a Marine, and he would not hesitate to remind you that he was not in the Navy, thank you very much. So we didn't ever deploy together. In fact, we were married several years before we lived together, because I was stationed in San Diego and he was in flight school in Pensacola, so lots of traveling back and forth, and getting well-versed at long-distance. Even when we weren't deployed, we weren't often together until I got out the Navy in 2009.




Warwick Fairfax:

So once you were married, how did your service work then? Because with four young kids, how did you manage balance Navy and kids?




Sarah Nannen:

I actually got out of the Navy six months after our first baby was born. I was at that decision point in my career that I had served the time that I was required to, based on the agreement that we created, and having a newborn was kind of a no-brainer. I took a lot of maternity leave and then finished out the last three months of... Really, I was on shore duty, so that helped nicely, that my work was essentially an office job. And when I got out of the Navy, then I transitioned full-time to stay-at-home mom, which was also a very interesting, in hindsight, crucible moment; going from Naval officer to commander-in-chief of the house, and all of the really big life changes that came with being at home with just my amazing baby, rather than fighting the ship all day long, every day.




Warwick Fairfax:

That was a big decision. But...




Sarah Nannen:

Yeah.




Warwick Fairfax:

... obviously everybody's in a different situation and totally understand that...




Sarah Nannen:

We were tired of living far away from each other, to be honest, Warwick, and I made the decision to get out so that we could finally cohabitate and have the same address.




Warwick Fairfax:

So I'm assuming, given he's a Marine, they don't fly off of ships, I'm assuming they fly off land or...




Sarah Nannen:

Sometimes they do.




Warwick Fairfax:

Okay.




Sarah Nannen:

They're often deployed to aircraft carriers, and they also will have land-based assignments, so...




Warwick Fairfax:

But it meant that you could actually be together as a family, at least a reasonable...




Sarah Nannen:

Theoretically.




Warwick Fairfax:

... amount of time.




Sarah Nannen:

Theoretically. We did have the same address, so that helped.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I understand. And so, how long were you married?




Sarah Nannen:

We were married in 2005.




Warwick Fairfax:

Okay.




Sarah Nannen:

And we were together since 2000, so 14 years, all told.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow, wow. And so it was in Japan when the... And it was a training accident, was it?




Sarah Nannen:

Yes, oddly enough I was in Japan, and he was in the US, in Nevada, at TOPGUN. You may have seen the movie.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah.




Sarah Nannen:

Similar but different in real life. He was at a high-level training command, learning some really exciting things that he was tasked to essentially bring back to his squadron, and train the squadron around, and had a aviation accident that we never saw coming, of course. When they go on deployment, you're worried all the time and anxious, but as a military spouse, I think you take training for granted so often. You know there's risks involved in things...




Warwick Fairfax:

But you think, assuming...




Sarah Nannen:

... but you truly don't expect it.




Warwick Fairfax:

Right, assuming the equipment works and there's no pilot, what have you, you would just assume that you'll be okay, so...




Sarah Nannen:

Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

Now, you were in the Navy, you understand the Navy, Marine culture. So I'm assuming you see in the movies, and maybe I think you've recounted this; two officers, they're walking down towards your front door. And I think you mentioned, you knew why they were there. You knew...




Sarah Nannen:

It's just like you see in the movies. And even as I describe it, I can sort of feel my body remembering that moment, you have those crucible moments and you can't unsee them. And it truly is, you see them coming up the steps and you just know why they're there. Which is helpful because I don't think they wanted to have to say the words to me. And we both took a while to figure out how to talk to each other about what was actually happening.




Warwick Fairfax:

Do they say the words you just see, "On behalf of a grateful nation..." That whole thing?




Sarah Nannen:

That came more toward the funeral time, in that moment I think they were attempting to just say, "I don't know how to say this, but there was an accident." And at that point I was already in my complete dissociative psychology state of crying and shaking my head, "No", while welcoming them into my home, while remembering that my children were at the lunch table, and trying to navigate all of the complexity of that moment with as much grace and also the overwhelmingly human emotions that naturally come out when you find out that your partner has died.




Warwick Fairfax:

The fact that you were in the Navy, did that make any difference to how you experienced it, as opposed to any other spouse of somebody in the military?




Sarah Nannen:

I love that question. I think it didn't affect, at all, my grief experience and the intensity of the emotions, but it did afford me a comfortability in that environment, that I felt ease in asking questions to high-ranking members of the military that I think others may not have. Even though spouses don't worry about rank, there is this understanding of the structure and power, and I had no qualms about talking to the general in very clear terms and asking questions. And I think I maybe knew what questions to ask, in a way that someone who doesn't have as much exposure to that kind of thing might? So I do think it did help.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, you want to know, "Well, what happened? How could this possibly happen?" Because I'm sure, again, we don't need to get into details, but I'm sure your husband was very good at what he did, otherwise he wouldn't have gone to TOPGUN.




Sarah Nannen:

Yes. Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's not like he's some rookie, first time up in the air, "Where's the control stick? Where's the gauges again?" He knew what he was doing, so I'm sure that was one whole episode. And I'm assuming there's probably a good support system, sadly, this happens, other Navy spouses... You probably could talk to, not just spouses, but officers too, because you were an officer as well?




Sarah Nannen:

Yeah, I think that I had a relationship with a lot of his coworkers, that seems like a strange word, but his peers, that maybe other spouses didn't? Again, there was a mutual respect, perhaps, that I had earned, knowing that I had also served. And so I did feel, again, that I could call up or text someone who I saw as a friend, not just someone that worked with him and say, "I need you to tell it to me like it is, don't sugarcoat it. I know that you're trying to be careful with me, but I actually... I need to know the information, whatever you can tell me is appreciated."




Sarah Nannen:

And that really helped me make sense of it from an objective standpoint. I think a lot of people, particularly in the work that I do now, they are left grappling with what happened, how could this happen? And I think, in an attempt to protect us from what happened, they also rob us of some really basic information that helps us turn this horrific event into a very scientific matter of fact thing. And that was how my son, who was five at the time, engaged with it. When I told him what happened, "Daddy had a crash, they're not sure if he's okay, they're looking for him, but they don't think he's okay." And he said, "Well, Mom, there's helicopters with lights on them, so they'll find him, don't worry." He was just so matter of fact about the thing, because young children don't have all of those social stories to apply on top of the information, it's just information. And so having that access to information, and I guess the privilege, or the self-appointed privilege, to say, "I'm going to ask these questions that other people might not..."




Warwick Fairfax:

So you feel...




Sarah Nannen:

... "feel safe asking."




Warwick Fairfax:

... you at least had closure in the sense that you knew what happened and why, you felt like you were being given the truth, not some, I don't know, whitewashed or sanitized version for spouses, so that probably helped to a degree. And one of the things I think I've read is you have four children, and your youngest daughter, was it a few weeks...




Sarah Nannen:

Yes. Six weeks old.




Warwick Fairfax:

... old? So that's one of, obviously, the tragedies, when you have four kids, and even your oldest at five, it's still young, would have some memories...




Sarah Nannen:

Very young.




Warwick Fairfax:

... but your younger ones, probably, obviously though your little daughter wouldn't have...




Sarah Nannen:

She never met him, actually. She was born while he was already gone, so he watched her birth via FaceTime.




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh my gosh.




Sarah Nannen:

So, the pictures that we have of them together are screenshots of them looking at each other through technology.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, not only do you have the tragedy of your husband, but the sense of my youngest daughter and my younger kids are not going to know their father.




Sarah Nannen:

Mm-hmm.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I want to obviously talk about how you got beyond that, but I think it's probably obvious, but the listeners are still going to want to know, some have gone through your experience, some have not. What were you feeling about those two tragedies, in a sense? Your husband dying, and especially your youngest daughter never having met their father, your, probably, youngest two not really having many memories. So what was your emotions in those weeks and months afterwards?




Sarah Nannen:

I really appreciate you making those two separate things, because I think often people see the story as one giant tragedy with no way out. And it really was this very juxtaposed personal loss in figuring out who am I now without him, and also this overwhelming sense of pity, being too young to be a widow, as everyone liked to phrase it. That I was sort of clamoring to reclaim my autonomy and my existence without him. In a way, it was very projected upon me that my life was kind of over, and everybody knew it, and so they were there to help me suffer through the rest of my life.




Sarah Nannen:

But then there was this other, very clear, desire to protect my children from unnecessary pain and also to really help them experience the pain in an honest way, that was useful to their healing rather than hiding them from it. And so navigating what's the appropriate amount of disclosure and dialogue with a two year old or a five year old around what's happening, and helping them express that in ways that are age-appropriate and even accessible. And there was a lot of information involved, because young children really don't even understand the concept of death, so I had to teach them what that even meant before I could get to telling them what had happened.




Sarah Nannen:

So, luckily I had a really beautiful chaplain with me and he was able to help me create this lesson essentially, and talk about, "Some things are alive, and some things are not alive, and some things have that life in them, and some things don't have life in them. And sometimes the things that had life in them don't have life in them anymore." So we kind of looked at nature as an obvious teaching tool. "And you can see that this plant over here is alive. This tree was alive, but is no longer alive. Remember that time we went hiking and we saw that big tree on the ground? And then you can see a fake plant in the house that clearly does not have any life in it, but looks like it could." So just giving them some basic understanding of life and death, and what it means to be living, and what happens when you're not living was sort of our starting point.




Sarah Nannen:

And I think as they grow and as they continue to grow, they will have new experiences with their grief. They will have new questions, they'll have new understandings. As they learn to identify as themselves, they'll also look back and want to know more. And so one of the things that I've done to help them know him without having known him is that he's always remained a part of our conversations. And so they'll be able to describe him to you. They know what food he liked, they know what teams he liked, they know how he liked to spend his time. And so I've sort of posthumously created this relationship to him for them, that they feel as though they remember, even though it's simply information that I've continued to help them create this image of who he was. And I think that's really helpful, that even though they don't have a lot of memory of time together, they feel like they know who he was still.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. So I can picture just those first few months and years, where you're dealing with your own grief. You're obviously a highly intelligent person, you don't get into the Navy without being a leader, so intellectually you know what needs to be done. It's almost like it's a terrible mission. It's difficult, but I need to overcome, so intellectually you probably, in some sense, had an idea of what you needed to do, but then you're human being, and...




Sarah Nannen:

Yes. Thank you.




Warwick Fairfax:

... sadly, even though you might know the right things to do and you're getting counseling and all the rest, you still have to deal with just, we're all human and it's devastating. So you're trying to be strong, deal with your own emotions. But then you're also trying to help your children and just be in this, to use your phrase, this fetal ball weeping every day, that may be normal and totally fine, but that may or may not help your kids. So it's like, "Gosh, I've got to be strong for my kids, even if I don't feel like I'm particularly strong in any given moment." So, that's got to be... "And I've got to try and help them, when I'm having enough trouble helping myself. I don't think I have any energy to help anybody other than me." Having four children so young, that's got to have been a huge stretch on internal resources, to try to keep yourself sane, and be strong, and calm for your kids.




Sarah Nannen:

It's interesting that I actually had to reverse engineer my grief after that initial shock, because within the week we were on an airplane back to the States with 13 suitcases, and living with my folks, and then seeking a house, and buying a car, and finding a pediatrician. And so there wasn't actually space for me to be anything but strong and mission-driven, as you pointed out, that was my auto-default, was to go straight to strong. And it took, probably, a year before I was able to circle back around to, "Now that all that's done, and we have somewhere to live, and they have a school to go to... Now what do I do?"




Sarah Nannen:

And that was the point where I was capable to start interfacing with the grief and the emotions and the fears and the unknowns and all of the, "Who am I now?" And even the complexity of the social thing that continued where, as much as I would work to find strength in myself or find something to inspire me, my identity always came back around to his death for the people in the world around me. And so it took a lot to really reclaim my sense of self, and then even more to get to a point where I could stand in that and say, "Yes, and?" Because so many people could only see the tragic widow, no matter what I did.




Warwick Fairfax:

Right, so, "Oh, that's Sarah Nannen. Oh, she was the wife of that Navy pilot... I mean, Marine pilot, and TOPGUN, it was so tragic. Oh my gosh, how will she get through this?" It's sort of like, "Sarah Nannen, who is..."




Sarah Nannen:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

And the "who is" never changes, it's frozen in time. You're perpetually that age, and that grief-stricken widow, and there's no end. Does it feel like sort of a prison? They don't let you out of the box. That's who you are, and that'll never change.




Sarah Nannen:

It did feel as though I was supposed to climb into that widow box, and let everybody sort of seal me in there, and set up shop, and be happy. Like that, "This is your job now. Your job is to grieve and remember your husband, and help us grieve and remember your husband, and for the rest of forever, this is what we will do. And when Memorial Day comes around, when his birthday comes around, we're going to come back around to you, so that we can grieve together, and that will be your life." And it felt so small.




Gary Schneeberger:

And this is a fascinating point to hear you talk about that, Sarah, you began several minutes back where you said something along the lines of people looked at you like your life was over. And Warwick, listeners who know your story, there's a very similar emotion happened to you when the takeover bid failed. And in some ways, what you just described in talking to Sarah about you're supposed to be in this box, and you're the widow of this pilot, you, in many perspectives, people thought, "Okay, you're the young man who tried to take over the family business and it didn't work." And you were seen like that too.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I think a lot of listeners who've been through crucibles, through really heart-rending crucibles, have felt that experience. That they are frozen in time, to use your words, Warwick, they're frozen in time as a widow. They're frozen in time as a failure. They're frozen in time as someone who's been injured in some way physically, and they've lost some physical part of who they were. And what's great about this conversation is we're about to turn a corner here in talking to you, Sarah, where you did, you have created a new life from the ashes of what was, from even the expectations of people that you were going to stay there. You created a new life just as you created a new and rewarding life, Warwick, from your crucible.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's so well said. Obviously don't want to compare tragedies, because it's one thing losing 150-year-old family business, but a spouse? That feels pretty up there as about as bad or tough a thing as you could possibly go through. But in a sense...




Sarah Nannen:

It is a meaningful comparison though. It absolutely is, and I think it's a very universal thread that when we have what you call a crucible moment, on the other side of that, we're asked to identify as a cancer survivor, or as a survivor of that person, or he figured out how to fix that failure, it always comes back around to that...




Warwick Fairfax:

They always see you, and...




Sarah Nannen:

... moment.




Warwick Fairfax:

... in my case, as listeners know, I was 26 year old, just back from Harvard Business School, launched this 2 billion plus takeover, wanting to ring it back, ideals of the founder. It fails. And so, for Australia... It's funny, my dad has the same name as me. He was knighted, so he was Sir Warwick, so I was always called young Warwick. And that's 30 plus years ago, it's a long time. But in the Australian media's eyes, I'm perpetually 26 years old, the idealistic, naive, foolish kid who let a 150-year-old family company go, and I'll forever be young Warwick. I'm in my fifties now. I don't feel like young Warwick anymore, but I'll always be young Warwick. So yeah, the people put you in that box.




Warwick Fairfax:

So in your case, in terms of how you moved on, I love the fact you talked about, even though you're a very strong, driven person, you were sensible enough to say, "I actually need to experience the grief." Some people would say, "You know what? I'm moving on. I'm not doing this grief thing, because I'm not going to be a weak little jellyfish. I'm not going to do grief. I'm going to be strong."




Sarah Nannen:

Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

I think you had the wisdom to realize being strong doesn't mean to say that you can't move on without grieving. So talk about some of the steps, in terms of how you moved on, and then obviously how that gets into how you help others, because I have a feeling that was... Maybe step one is you got to feel the grief before you can move on.




Sarah Nannen:

It's one of the strongest things we can do, is turn toward it. And what I find over and over, and I did this myself, is that we have this model of grief that the statute of limitations ends when the funeral happens, and then everyone starts looking at their clock and watching how you behave. "Well, isn't it about time you..." Fill in the blank. And so we have that sense of urgency of get on with it, and get on with your life, and figure it out, you'll be fine. And when we choose to come toward it, something changes and that's, I believe, the only way that healing can actually happen.




Sarah Nannen:

What's tough is that the model we're given, to fake it till you make it and put on a happy face, creates this really ruptured reality where, externally, everyone sees us as incredibly strong and powerful and inspiring and doing great. And internally, day by day, we are imploding and crumbling and hurting. And something really damaging happens to the psyche of a human being when you're asked to live in two realities at the same time, and neither of those realities involve your truth. Neither of those realities involve healing. So the performative external world is happening, and maybe you're succeeding at the performance of life, but you're not reaping any of the rewards. You can't experience any of the richness of your lived experience, because internally you're so devastated, and your physiology and your psychology are in such a dissociative, distressed place that you feel like you're sleepwalking through the world.




Sarah Nannen:

And I think there are a lot of people on the planet who have experienced a variety of crucible moments that are stuck in that place because it feels like success. It looks like you're making it. And when we have those moments of pain, we sort of chalk it up like, "Oh, I'm having a bad day. Oh, it's just a hard day today. Or maybe I'm depressed. Maybe I just need some medication. I don't know. I just can't stop crying." And I always invite those people who come toward my work with curiosity to just turn toward that, whatever you're feeling. The fear, the overwhelm, the anxiety, the heartbreak, the tears, turn toward it and be curious about it. What's coming through? What hasn't been expressed? What hasn't been said? What tears haven't been cried?




Sarah Nannen:

Because my experience isn't that unique, in that when something devastating happens that ruptures our reality, interrupts our sense of self, whatever it is; a death, a loss, a failure, a health crisis, there is always a huge amount of stuff to do to triage the moment. Whether it's hiring lawyers, filling out paperwork, packing bags, moving houses, going to the hospital, there's so much to do externally, that that becomes the new dissociation. You distract yourself with the busyness of the work. And we're wired to be capable of delving into what must be done, because humans are amazing and that's part of our evolution, is that our nervous system actually has the capacity to override itself with all of these incredible, useful hormones to make the body parts do the things that must be done to keep survival happening. Very few people have said, "Well, I just laid on my bed for a year and waited for it to get better." No one gets the opportunity to do that.




Warwick Fairfax:

Right. You had four young children, there was stuff to do.




Sarah Nannen:

There was a lot to do.




Warwick Fairfax:

Kids to school, kids to change. But I like what you're talking about. There's the being and the doing. Yes, you got to get on with life, lawyers, probate, homes, moving halfway around the world, but yet you've also got to deal with who you are, because you can't be your best self to your friends and especially your children, unless you deal with that. If you don't help yourself, your kids will be affected, like it or not.




Sarah Nannen:

Absolutely.




Warwick Fairfax:

And you were smart enough to know that. It's for yourself, but it's also for your family. So, that sounds like a cornerstone, what are some other steps which, as well as you help others lean into the pain, but that seems so profound. A lot of people say, "Well, I don't want to lean into the pain."




Sarah Nannen:

It also seems very cruel.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, it does!




Sarah Nannen:

Your work here is lean into the pain. Don't you want to do that?




Warwick Fairfax:

Just jump into the cauldron of molten lava and just feel that fire burning and... Why would anybody want to do that? But obviously...




Sarah Nannen:

A lot of people who start working with me say, "I expected this to be heart-wrenching, painful, excruciating, and I can't believe that it wasn't those things." And what you're asking me to get to is like, okay, well, how do we do this? How do we lean into the discomfort? How do we make time to feel it? And how do we get the resources to feel it in a way that doesn't actually completely annihilate us? Because that's what we expect. And so, I apologize in advance that what I'm going to say is going to sound really simple, and it always sounds almost too simple to even be useful to the people who work with me. And then they're all, of course, amazed later on how life-changing it is. But one of the things that I started with, don't tune me out, is breathing practices and a yoga practice.




Sarah Nannen:

And the reason that that was so incredibly important to me was I was very adept at facilitating an out-of-body experience. I think that was part of why I could be so strong. I will just turn off this part of me, and do what must be done. And so there was a very dissociative experience in the moment of hard times where I wasn't really there, and I wasn't really present, but I could do the things. And so the breathing practice and the yoga practice helped me become more fully embodied. And I realize that this is getting into yoga language, but when we learn how to stay present, physically, physiologically, psychologically, socially, in this human being container that we're walking around in, we suddenly have a whole new experience of our life and ourselves.




Sarah Nannen:

And so these two practices not only helped me come back to myself fully, and fully inhabit myself, and be aware of myself, and be capable of witnessing myself more honestly, rather than just performing my experience. But they also helped me reset my physiology. And I think that that's something very important that we miss, as humans on this planet, in the game of mental health and winning at life, is it's always this external thing. Cognitive behavioral therapy, "I'll just go to a therapist and I'll talk it out and I'll use my intellect and my language to just fix everything." And you can go to all the therapy you want. If your physiology doesn't know that you're safe yet, the therapy will never really actually land. Part of the work on the other side of anything that ruptures your identity, and your existence, and sense of self is that you have to learn how to teach your body that it's not in danger anymore.




Sarah Nannen:

And so the breathing and the yoga was actually this very accessible modality that I could practice without being perfect at it. To, every day, say, "I'm going to learn how to let my nervous system come back to neutral, and out of survival mode, so that not only can I be here in this moment, but I also have access to my modern brain now." Because when we're in survival mode, we go down, down, down the evolutionary chain, way back to that place where everything is dangerous or safe, good or bad. We don't have access to this incredible intellect that's capable of immense and endless solutions to life's problems.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's that whole fight or flight, primitive, human being notion. So yeah, I love what you're saying. Yeah, I guess, from my perspective as a person of faith, there's different tools to do, I think, what you're talking about. When I've gone through some different crucibles, for me, prayer, spiritual meditation, for me, maybe it might be reading scriptures. Is there a thought that, for me, some spiritual thought, that some wise person, perhaps up there, is trying to tell me? Obviously there are different ways of doing it. Some, for people of faith, it might be one language, but it can be others. Whether it's meditation, yoga, there are different ways to try to understand what's going on. What am I feeling physically, emotionally? For me, if I feel depressed, frustrated, I have to, "Okay, why am I feeling this?" I'm a reflective person by nature, that's just like breathing to me. So I'll always think, "Okay, why am I frustrated? Okay, what's the issue?" And then I'll try and... I don't know, maybe "deal" with it's the wrong word, but at least name it, recognize it.




Sarah Nannen:

Yes. That's a tremendous tool, is cultivating that emotional intelligence and articulation, so that you understand what's actually happening. Because so often, our language around crucibles is very rudimentary. I'm sad. I'm grieving. I'm angry. And we don't go beyond that. And so, one of the things, another tool, and I want to come back to something you said in a minute, but another tool that I teach people is intentional language use. Being very intentional about what they say and how they say it. Because when you say, "I'm aware that I'm sad right now", it has a completely different energy and meaning, experience, in your physical body, than, "I'm sad". There's this permanence when we say "I'm sad. I'm sad, and I will be sad forever." But, "I'm aware that I'm sad right now" helps you get curious about, "Okay, well, why am I sad right now? Let me name all the reasons." And then what might I be able to do to either express that more completely, or to support the sadness so that it can move through?




Sarah Nannen:

But the thing I wanted to come back around to is when you offered up being a man of faith, I think that spirituality has many directions and flavors and labels and options. And I think that prayer and meditation are accessible to everyone.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely.




Sarah Nannen:

And I think what's the best way that I heard it described was that prayer is speaking and meditation is listening. And so I think we innately do both when we're either in meditation or in prayer, I think, naturally, both happen.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's so important to deal with these things. Everybody's different, but for me, if I get really anxious or something's weighing on me, it affects my stomach, which it does for many people. And I start getting more sensitive to tomatoes or acidy foods, and there's certain foods that, if your stomach is out of whack, you stay away from. But other people, maybe headaches or something, I don't know. But for me, it's the stomach. So if you don't deal with this stuff, not only will affect you emotionally, it will affect you, as you say, physiologically.




Sarah Nannen:

Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

More and more, our science is understanding there's a direct relation between the emotions and the physiology.




Sarah Nannen:

Yes. There's a very good reason.




Gary Schneeberger:

I want to hop back a few seconds to what you said, Sarah, about the importance of language. I'm a word guy. I'm an old journalist, I'm a PR guy now. And I love the fact, as I was reading through your materials, I love the fact that you called your coaching business Beyond Surviving. I love the fact that you have a quote on that website that says, "Let's interrupt the pain and shake up the pattern so you can move beyond surviving. It's time to enjoy the ride." I did a very quick search before we hopped on this interview, because Warwick loves history and he loves historical perspective on subjects like we're talking about. And I went back farther than you usually go, Warwick. And that was Aristotle. And this is something Aristotle said about this very subject, about moving beyond surviving. This is what Aristotle said.




Gary Schneeberger:

"The ultimate value of life depends upon awareness and the power of contemplation, rather than upon mere survival." Why, in your estimation and your experience, Sarah, why is survival not enough? Why should that not be where we point our compass, our GPS?




Sarah Nannen:

Wow. First, thank you for that quote, what a beautiful contribution. I think anyone who is feeling unfulfilled, feeling alone, feeling unhappy, feeling hopeless... Depressed is kind of the word we like to use in modern America. I think any of us who describe our life that way are in survival mode. And what's so tragic to me is that we've sort of been taught to settle for that, and believe that that's the best we can hope for. That life is hard, and some people get lucky, but most of us just suffer and struggle. Life is hard. And so few of us understand how self-empowered we are, how many resources we have all around us, how much life is a proactive, participatory experience rather than one that's only in receiving mode. And I think we are wired for survival, of course, so that is the default when stuff gets hard, but we've also been taught and programmed and modeled that that's the best you can hope for.




Sarah Nannen:

And what's really important for me, and I'm so grateful for your work, Warwick, and others like us who are preaching this gospel of, "There is more than the thing that happened to you." Jung said, "I am not what has happened to me, I am what I wish to become" or "what I choose to become." And I think it's so often that we, in America, in the modern day, are so quick to still completely identify with our hardships, rather than identifying those as one moment in the time of our life. And I do this exercise with my clients pretty early on, I ask them to create a timeline of their life. And I remind them that when you were seven, your crucible moment was the wrecking of your bike and the bloody knee that you had. And that is such a blip in your past now, but it was a defining moment that you can remember, you can totally go back to in your mind's eye, and feel, in real time, what that was like for you.




Sarah Nannen:

And so I teach people to see that this is not the ending of your story. It's one chapter in this broader context of what's possible. And when you have a crucible, I call it a catalyst moment, when you have a crucible experience, it wakes you up to your life and the ownership of your life and the value of your life in a way that you didn't have consciousness around before. We take it for granted. We'd sleepwalk through life. Our job is to get a retirement plan and a picket fence and a couple of kids and the right car, and we should be happy. And we are not taught to gauge our life by the fulfillment that we experience, or even how to get fulfillment beyond the external and the material.




Sarah Nannen:

So these crucible moments are a gift, and I don't mean to dismiss or minimize anyone's suffering, because no one deserves to suffer. And yet, time and again, it is those individuals who experience some kind of hardship that activates or awakens them to the richness of life, in a way that they will never take it for granted again. They deepen into their relationships, they deepen into their ownership of their life, they create something meaningful. And I know that without this experience, my life would've never taken the trajectory that it did, to the place where I'm incredibly enriched and fulfilled and joy-filled and inspired... Excessively, actually, because of what happened to me, and because I understand how much of a treasure it is.




Warwick Fairfax:

So talk about how that tragedy you went through was a catalyst, just to take you on a whole, maybe mission's the wrong word, but a whole new mission. Talk a bit about that, because it sounds like it was a defining moment in an obvious way, but yet in a way that's not so obvious. So talk about how that launched into a whole new direction, which is fulfilling and, is it wrong to say, in some sense, gives you joy? What you do?




Sarah Nannen:

No, please, I am absolutely joy-filled with my life and my work. And that's one of the challenges, honestly, is that people still want me to be in the widow box. So for me to say I'm joy-filled, and I'm in love, and my life is beautiful, is confusing, because people cannot conceptualize how that could be possible.




Warwick Fairfax:

Do you feel some people might say, which would be a bit cruel, very cruel, say, "Well, to really honor the memory of your husband, you shouldn't be happy." I mean...




Sarah Nannen:

Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

I don't think anybody would say that, but do you think they're thinking that?




Sarah Nannen:

I don't think they would say it out loud, but I am certain people think that maybe you just didn't love your husband that much, if you could get on with the show so easily. And that is something that I think we grapple with within these catalyst moments, is what does it mean about me if I'm not devastated for the rest of my life by this? And there's a lot of clients who come to me who are afraid to let go of their grief, because the grief is the thing that feels like love now. "I can't see them, I can't touch them, but I can grieve."




Warwick Fairfax:

But the obvious thing is if it were possible to speak to your husband in some strange, metaphysical sense, he wouldn't say, "No, I want you to grieve and be sad the rest of your life." He would say what you would've said if, heaven forbid, your roles were reversed, you'd say, "I want you to get on with your life. Don't forget me."




Sarah Nannen:

Yes. Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

"But get on with your life and live a happy and joyful life." He would say that, right? I'm sure there's no doubt.




Sarah Nannen:

Absolutely. Absolutely.




Warwick Fairfax:

And you would've said that to him if the roles... So how is that dishonoring his memory? I know this is obvious, but as you say, people put you in a box. So...




Sarah Nannen:

It's a demonstration of how small, I think, the concept of love is within our humanity. People are like, "How could I ever love anyone again?" And I say, well, "I have four children and I don't only love my first son. I actually love them all quite equally, perhaps even more expansively because there are four." I think we're so much more capable of vast love, and deep intimacy, and connection, and joy than we realize, because we're sold this story of find your soulmate and live happily ever after, and they'll complete you, and everything will be grand. And so really tearing down the wallpaper of that belief system that the American dream seems to be built upon, and getting real with the fact that there's no person who can complete you or make you feel loved. Unless you are deeply connected to and in love with yourself, you'll never really actually experience intimacy or connection or fulfillment, no matter how great you think your marriage is.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, and that's... I'm not into marriage ministry, so to speak, that's what you hear people say, is if you feel like your husband or wife is the one that's going to complete you, you're in trouble, because you've basically got to be happy with who you are, not seek fulfillment from some other person. So yeah, talk a bit about more what you do, and just how you try and come alongside other people. And I love that phrase, leaning into the pain, and very countercultural. And obviously I'm sure you're not against counseling, but it's "counseling and"...




Sarah Nannen:

No!




Warwick Fairfax:

... right?




Sarah Nannen:

Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, talk about some of the "and", so to speak, that you do to help other people going through grief.




Sarah Nannen:

I'm going to answer this by also answering the question I didn't answer yet, which was, "How did you get here?" I did what I was supposed to do, which was go to all the resources that were thrown at me to solve the problem that I had. And I very quickly realized that many of these people didn't actually believe in my healing either. They also saw me as a permanently wounded project that would need therapy for life, and would always have this deep rift of emotional baggage dragging behind me. And I found myself doing a lot of BSing with my therapist, like, "I know what to say right now because I am a Type A overachiever. So, the right answer when you ask me that question is, I'm doing just fine."




Sarah Nannen:

And I never really got to this place of vulnerability, nor did they ask me to go there. They couldn't guide me there, because I don't think that was a part of their service. And so I had to sort of go off-grid in search for resources that could see me as a human, and could really challenge me to become more curious about what my actual experience was, rather than projecting onto me what they thought it would be and what they thought I should be doing. And what I found there was really useful, but I had to look quite hard for it. And it wasn't packaged as the normal mainstream, "Here's what you do when you're grieving."




Sarah Nannen:

So I decided that I would create it, because one day I did come to a moment in my life where I looked up and around and thought, "Geez, I'm really happy." And this is the thing that nobody told me was possible, let alone real. And here I am. So I guess it's my job to let other people know this is a thing we can do, just in case they're also sort of buying the line that the best we can hope for is surviving.




Warwick Fairfax:

And it's okay to be happy.




Sarah Nannen:

Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

You don't have to apologize, no matter what the tragedy is.




Sarah Nannen:

Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's okay. Give yourself permission. It's okay to be happy. Don't feel guilty. Because I'm sure you have people saying, "I feel so bad, I'm happy."




Sarah Nannen:

Absolutely. I think that's a general theme anywhere you go, if someone experiences pain and then finds themselves happy, they feel it's confusing, it's disconcerting. "How could I be? How dare I?" So essentially what I've done is create this coaching program that's built upon community, and mind-body resourcing, and teaching people tools, and language, and the ability to self-reflect rather than deflect and disassociate. And I started out working primarily with widows, and it was really, and continues to be, really powerful and exciting, to watch them evolve beyond navigating their widowhood, to navigating their lives in a broader context, beyond that label. They can now see themselves as human beings, not widows, and it's exciting, because then we get to do the fun stuff of finding out "Who am I without that identity? I don't have to leave behind what happened. I don't have to forget to heal. I can always have that love story as a part of me and, looking forward, what do I desire to create? What do I desire to experience?"




Sarah Nannen:

We don't get there overnight, of course, there's a lot of terrain to cover, but that is, ultimately, where we head, is getting to the place where the pain feels like a part of the story that they're very familiar with, rather than one they're grappling with. And after a while, I noticed there were a ton of threads that were coming through, because I was also working here and there with people whose father had passed, or their brother had died, or their friend had died. And I just noticed that it wasn't any different than working with the widows. The language was slightly different, but the same fears and concerns and lack of ability to express what they were feeling, and didn't know how to, "I don't know where to go, I don't know what to do!" Was all the same.




Sarah Nannen:

And so this has evolved with time, looking at the psychosomatic experience of navigating a painful life experience, and what is missing in the culture that we operate in. Filling that in with tools, and self-resourcing, and the ability to turn to ourselves with curiosity, and notice what we're experiencing so we can be honest about that, and make choices, and express ourselves in new ways to find our way to the truth of who we are, rather than staying in that box, whatever the box might be.




Gary Schneeberger:

And this is a good time, sorry, this is a good time for us to do a couple things. One, it's about time to shelve the book back on the shelf. But the other thing, Sarah, I would be remiss if, after you explained all of that, I did not give you the chance to let listeners know how can they find out more about what you do and get in touch with you?




Sarah Nannen:

Thank you for that. I'm on Facebook and Instagram, and also have a website. My name is Sarah Nannen. It's lots of letters, so I'm hoping you have show notes somewhere, but if you look for me on the Facebook or the Instagram or connect with me at sarahnannen.com, S-A-R-A-H-N-A-N-N-E-N.com. Write that down for them, so they don't have to remember.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, I will. And you got nothing on Schneeberger for long letters in your name. But I digress. Warwick, I'll give you the last question.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, thank you so much, Sarah. I love what you do. I have this image in my mind, I think of that whole Scarlet Letter thing from, I don't know, Salem, Massachusetts, and it's almost like for some widows, they feel like they have the big W on their forehead.




Sarah Nannen:

Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's okay to have it somewhere, but it doesn't have to be that big. It doesn't have to... You are more than your tragedy, your tragedy doesn't define you.




Sarah Nannen:

Yes. Any of us.




Warwick Fairfax:

I remember in the nineties, I wasn't, as listeners know, wasn't in particularly good shape. And there were some well-meaning people that said, "Gosh, after that tragedy that Warwick went through, and losing all that family business, and he's in pretty bad shape. He'll probably never amount to more than that. He'll always be just a pile of broken pieces." Now, they wouldn't say that to my face, but I felt that. Yeah...




Sarah Nannen:

You knew it.




Warwick Fairfax:

... probably resented it a bit at the time, but it's like...




Sarah Nannen:

Sure.




Warwick Fairfax:

... to me, you want to get in touch with what you've been through. But for me, as I've been on a couple of church board, and a school board, and now with Crucible Leadership, there's sort of a healing balm, healing element, as you're focused on using your pain to help others. It doesn't mean it totally goes away, there's always a scar. But the culmination of just understanding who you are, dealing with that, being real with that... I love that phrase, leaning into the pain, but then finding a purpose for your life, in our language a life significance. That's also part of not being defined by your tragedy. You're more than just that day in Japan when those two Marines, or whoever it was, came down your front walkway. You're more than that hour, that day, that minute. And everybody is.




Warwick Fairfax:

So yeah, I love what you do, and thank you so much. And yeah, it's a great mission, ministry. And obviously it gives your life meaning, purpose, and joy, and wholeness. You now can probably say you're a whole, you're not a disassociated person, you're a whole person, right? Mind...




Sarah Nannen:

I strive to be.




Warwick Fairfax:

... body, spirit. That's the goal, right? Be a whole person with a mission to help others, which you have. So, I think you can really help a lot of other people, and you have, and it's a message people really need to hear. So thank you so much.




Sarah Nannen:

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.




Gary Schneeberger:

And this is when I know it's been a great show, when I have, and I'm going to show it to our YouTube viewers, when I take notes about, "Here are some takeaways you can have for the show" and then Warwick steals a couple of them when he summarizes his statement. So I normally have three takeaways, I'm only going to have two today. So Warwick took number one, which is don't stay in the box. You don't have to stay in the box. That's number one. The way I sort of phrased it was we hear, all the time, that you're never too old to move beyond your crucible. I think what Sarah has proven, and what Warwick has proven in his own story, is it's also true that we're never too young...




Sarah Nannen:

Yes.




Gary Schneeberger:

... to move beyond our crucible, that we are not frozen in time, even if we're young. That's not our destiny forever. And Warwick just unpacked that a little bit, and Sarah talked about it...




Sarah Nannen:

Perfect.




Gary Schneeberger:

... much in our conversation.




Gary Schneeberger:

Another thing that Sarah really made clear in our conversation, listeners, is do not fake it until you make it. Healing is a proactive experience that requires intention and support. Projecting everything's okay while everything isn't okay can deepen and actually worsen the pain of your crucible. Even though it may appear to those people who are onlookers that you're winning, you really aren't. You're only surviving, and survival isn't healing. Do not be an actor in your own life, be a character in your own life.




Gary Schneeberger:

And then the third point, I think, that we can walk away with from this really meaningful conversation, is never settle but strive. Life is hard, but it's also a proactive, as Sarah put it, a proactive, participatory experience. There's more than the bad thing that happened to you. And you can move beyond that bad thing that happened to you, and you can grab a good thing that's waiting for you. And that is what we hope to point you to each week on Beyond the Crucible.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, until we are together the next time, listener, thank you for joining us, and remember that your crucible experiences are indeed painful. They can knock you off balance. They can change, as they did for Warwick and Sarah, the trajectory of your life. But they are not the end of your story. In fact, if you lean into the pain, as Sarah says, if you learn from those experiences, as Warwick has talked about, they can be the start of a new story, a new chapter in your life that can become the most joyous and most rewarding because it leads you to a life of significance.

In this first episode of our best-of series, we talk to Tracy J. Edmonds. From the outside looking in, her life couldn’t have been sweeter: A high-profile executive job with a Fortune 30 company at which she excelled. But on the inside, where she discovered it really counts, her career had come at a high cost because of a self-imposed crucible: not being her authentic self. So she decided to embrace both her figurative and literal wild hair — trading her corner office for a cubicle and tackling a vision that not only meshed with her gifts and passions but also allowed her to live who she truly was rather conform to some corporate mold. She’s found her life of significance in coaching leaders — focusing on other women of color — that to be the best versions of themselves, they have to be the real versions of themselves.

Highlights

Her childhood crucibles (4:32)
The drive and passion she got from her parents (7:20)
How she paid forward “the gift” of being the child of an alcoholic family (10:07)
What she learned from her mom about forgiveness and finding the value in crucibles (12:16)
Realizing how to be her own woman after her mom died (14:19)
Growing up in corporate America — and realizing what she did and didn’t want for her life (19:28)
Her “wild hair” moment (23:57)
The power of being true to herself (28:21)
How authenticity creates a path for others (32:14)
The power of human connection to bridge the gaps that divide us (39:56)
The importance of authentic values alignment (44:53)
The response she gets to her message from young people (46:18)
Tracy’s biographical poem (51:42)

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Gary Schneeberger:

When you've done more than 130 episodes of a podcast, you have favorites. More importantly, listeners have favorites, guests who shared inspiring and equipping stories and insights. That's why we're taking the next several weeks for a Greatest Hits Tour, and our first stop is this look at the importance of living an authentic life of significance.




Tracy J Edmonds:

When we talk about being authentic and living your best life, having the career that you want, it always comes down to four components. Self honesty, you've got to look yourself in the face and face the demon, whatever that may be. Or just clearly articulate what you want out of your life and your career. You have to have the courage to own that. So once you say it out loud, you've got to own sometimes what's very ugly, but also the big dream of what you could be.




Tracy J Edmonds:

Then you have to have the confidence to work it out and the resilience to stick with it, because it's never just a straight shot. There's going to be hills, valleys, turns, things you're going to have to navigate, times like I had in my career when I restarted my career where people say, "You're not so good at this." Whoa, ego blow. Never heard that before. But I didn't give up, and I cried about it, and then I said, "Okay, here's the plan."




Gary Schneeberger:

So what is the plan? Your plan to learn and leverage the lessons of your crucible, to put yourself on the road to authenticity and the life of significance that flows from it. The woman dispensing the wisdom you just heard is leadership coach and author Tracy J. Edmonds, whose new book Wild Hair: A Courageous Woman's Guide to a Bold and Authentic Career offers plenty more insight and inspiration where that snippet we just played came from.




Gary Schneeberger:

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show and the communications director for Crucible Leadership. In today's episode, Tracy tells Warwick about the breakthroughs in her personal and professional life that she set into motion by embracing both her figurative and literal Wild Hair truths. She chose to move from a corner office to a cubicle in her career because the success she achieved in the former didn't give her the purpose she found in the latter. She explains it all in truly poetic terms. Keep listening all the way to the end and you'll learn why that word poetic is very, very intentional, and quite beautiful.




Warwick Fairfax:

We're going to get into your book here in a bit, but I have to say that I loved reading your book, Wild Hair, and we'll get into it more. Why? Because not everybody's viewing this on YouTube, people might think, "Well why wild hair?" And it's not just a physical description, it's a meme of your philosophy of life that can help so many women and so many people in general. So I love that whole concept of Wild Hair and the subtitle of the book is A Courageous Woman's Guide to a Bold and Authentic Career. So you've been through a bunch of experiences, some successful corporate career and a lot of successes and challenges, as there is with anybody's career. But I'd love to start just with who is Tracy Edmonds, how'd you grow up, parents, background, what's the story behind the story, if you will, of who is Tracy?




Tracy J Edmonds:

Well, first of all, thanks for having me. This is exciting to be able to have this kind of conversation and talk about crucible moments, because in fact I have a chapter about that in my book. So I'm super, super excited. One of the things though I am not is a poet, so I appreciate the distinction, but to be honest, when I thought about what we could talk about with your listeners, it was important for me not to describe myself in the more traditional ways, but to describe myself in terms of my life experiences, and who those life experiences have changed me into and how I'm ever-evolving. So that's just what came to mind. I did not have it prepared. I wrote it and said, "Hopefully they won't send me a note back and say, 'Okay, this is not what we're looking for.'"




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh, I thought it was brilliant. I thought it was terrific.




Tracy J Edmonds:

Well thank you.




Gary Schneeberger:

It was so good that we didn't know that we could look for it, if that makes sense. I mean truly it was informational and beautiful, so thank you.




Tracy J Edmonds:

Well thank you. Thank you. Who am I? The African American child of two alcoholic parents, who came from very different backgrounds. A mother who came from the south, in Tennessee, who struggled and had a difficult life and who was very, very dark skinned, and a father who came from a sleepy river town and was as fair as you, Warwick. And I share that because I am the mix of that. I am the mix of two people who come from the same race who had very different experiences being Black in their own skin, because that shaped me into who I became and I think quite honestly drove me to address issues of diversity. They both had their challenges, which meant I grew up in a household full of love. I have two younger brothers, we are extremely close. But I also grew up in a household that was emotionally unstable very often, and I found myself stepping into, as the oldest, more of a leadership role to help sometimes my brothers to eat that night, because my parents were struggling with their own addictions and their own issues.




Tracy J Edmonds:

And so those things kind of shaped me into this young woman who believed education was everything and went off to college to be an engineer, two years at Cornell University, and realized that I hated the science classes I had to take, and found her way back home and back into college, but also working while I was going to college. And that began a 31 year journey with an organization, with one organization, honestly, that evolved over time, and a career where I could learn to bring all of that that I just shared with you into who I was as a leader and to help other women, and men, but women especially to lead in their lives.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, one of the things I observed from reading your book is that you're a driven, passionate person, has a heart for the world and to help folks. Where did that drive and passion come from? Did you have a role model? I mean, where were the seeds of that, of who you became?




Tracy J Edmonds:

In my family, quite honestly, my mother and father. And it sounds like such a contradiction because we were not a perfect family by any stretch of the imagination. As I mentioned, my parents had their own addictions and their own struggles, but we were loved and we were taught to be fierce and strong. I can remember my father setting me down on the edge of his bed when I was 12 years old and saying, "Tracy, you are a Black woman in this world. You will have to fight for what you get. You will have to be better than everyone else. And we never give up. We never quit. That's what it's going to take for you to be successful in your life, but you've got it in you. You can do it."




Tracy J Edmonds:

And my mother was an extremely compassionate woman who had struggled a lot in her life growing up as a child in the south. Horrific things that had happened to her and finding her place in the world without losing that compassion. I mean, she was a victim of incest. She was a victim of racism in some of the strongest ways. And for her to still have compassion and love and to see the good in people, I think she passed that on to me. So I have this fierce desire to succeed in this life, whatever that looks like, but a desire to take my challenge and pay that forward. So whatever the journey is, it's there to make me a better person, and hopefully I can share that with others and help them along the way.




Warwick Fairfax:

One of the chapters in your book talks about the value of mentors, and in particular those who are truth tellers.




Tracy J Edmonds:

Yes.




Warwick Fairfax:

You had a dad who was a truth teller. In a sense, he was your first mentor perhaps. And he was giving you encouragement, but he wasn't sugar coating. He said, "This is going to be tough." For a Black woman, certainly, as you were talking. As a young woman, it's probably not easy today. It was probably worse back then, and not that it's great, but there's sadly often always worse. And he wasn't sugar coating it, yet he was encouraging you. And yet you often think biblically they talk about balance of truth and love. Your dad gave you truth, your mom gave you love. I'm sure your dad gave you love too. But boy, truth and love, that will make a lot of folks grow, done in the right way and the right balance. So even though they weren't perfect, did you look back and say, "Look, they weren't perfect but they were gifts in many ways, they were blessings as parents."




Tracy J Edmonds:

Gosh, absolutely. They were absolutely blessings. I would not trade my life growing up as a child for anyone else's. And it was not perfect. I mean, I can think of times when my parents were arguing and I was sitting outside just crying, "Why is my life like this?" You know, you think of everyone else's life as perfect. Of course, we know as we grow older that that's not always the case. But I can remember crying and thinking, "Why can't I have a better life?"




Tracy J Edmonds:

And a moment came in my life when I had the opportunity to pay forward the gift of being a child of an alcoholic family. I had the opportunity to say to a woman sitting across from me at work who was struggling, that I am a child of an alcoholic and I know how that feels, because she had a son. And to be able to have that conversation with her and get her on the right track to get the help that she needed and to turn her life around and become a productive employee. So I don't trade that, because we don't know when those moments of what we perceive to be negative experiences will come back and be the gift that we give to someone else.




Warwick Fairfax:

And that's such a profound thought. And again, I'm being authentic when I say this, there were so many profound moments when I read your book, and that was, I forget exactly how you coined it, but sometimes crucibles can be a blessing. I mean the crucible of growing up with alcoholic parents, you were able to, as you just said, pay it forward and help that woman that I think you describe in the book. Just it's sort of vulnerability for a purpose. You can be vulnerable about things that won't help anybody. It's oversharing. It's like, "And you're telling me this why?" You did something stupid in high school or took drugs or, "Okay fine. So what? What's that got to do with my situation?" And if it has nothing to do with, it's like, "Thank you boss, this is not helping me at all." But in this case it was sharing for a purpose.




Warwick Fairfax:

So that's such a key lesson. Just one last thing on your mother, and obviously she was, as you recount, one of your best friends, cheerleader, you speak very movingly about her, her ability to go through unbelievably difficult if not horrific circumstances and, I'm guessing, not countenance what was done, but yet not be bitter, not let anger and bitterness destroy you. I mean, that's powerful. Forgiveness doesn't mean acceptance, it doesn't mean condoning. It's a very, very big difference. But that must have been remarkable, because she probably didn't, I don't know if she told you everything that happened, certainly as a kid she probably would have maybe given you the PG version or the G, but that sense of not being bitter, that's also a remarkable example as I'm sure you look back.




Tracy J Edmonds:

It was a powerful example and I think what it gave to me, what her example gave to me is that we have the capacity to forgive, for one, but also what we can take from the experiences that we have. I think a lot of times negative experiences happen and we're quick to say, "We just want to push that out, we want to forget about that, we want to move on." But what I have found is that every crucible moment, every one of those times when I thought it was horrific, there was something in there that I could take from it to forge a better version of myself. So that was one of the big aha moments. I spent my twenties just being angry. I mean I grew up in this environment where there was constant emotional upheaval. My parents couldn't hold it together. They were struggling and fighting some real demons.




Tracy J Edmonds:

And once I got through my twenties and got into my thirties and went through that moment where I had a child, I lost my mom... I had lost my father, I lost my mom, I bought a house, I had a child, got the big job, when all those things happened and I didn't know how to juggle that and I essentially started falling apart, I would sit in the rocking chair with my new baby, she was three months old when my mom passed, and I would cry. I could barely keep her my arms because my mom was my best friend and she died suddenly. Didn't know she was sick, found her on the floor, took her to the hospital, dead in five days. And I was distraught. And I can remember saying to God that, "I hate you for doing this." How do you let a woman who struggled so difficultly in her life, who finally was getting over alcoholism, loses her husband, starts drinking again, and then dies.




Tracy J Edmonds:

It's not right. It's just not right. But what that ended up being, first of all, I had to vocalize that, to be brave enough to vocalize that, and then also to realize that this experience of losing her taught me how to be my own woman. I was a mother now and I needed to step up and be that mother. I had immersed myself in work because that's what I knew how to do well. I didn't know how to be a mom. My own mom left me. How was I going to be a mom? I didn't know how to manage my marriage. I was only a few years into it. And what I had been doing since I was in my early twenties was working. So I dug in on that, and I had to realize that that was not what I wanted from my life. We have to think about what do we really, really want?




Tracy J Edmonds:

Self honesty. So I had to be honest with myself and say, "What's most important to me is not work. What is most important to me is this child and my husband and family." So how do I create that? How do I forgive myself for being so angry at my mother and at God, and what do I learn from this? Because my mom had that heart of forgiveness. It was like, "Oh, you have to understand. You don't know someone's journey and what brings them to the point where they show up like they do and not always in the most positive way." And what can I learn about me out of this? And I learned that I was a lot stronger than I ever knew.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's a remarkable thing that your mother said. I mean, to be able to say, "Oh you don't know their journey." And I don't need to know the details, but you do, or least many of them I bet, for her to say that, it's like how can you possibly say, "Oh, you don't know their journey"? I mean I understand intellectually, but how in the world can you say it and mean it? It just blows my mind. I think for most people it's like, "I don't get it." You talk about kind of superwoman, if you will, that's sort of a level of superior character quality that's mind blowing to me.




Tracy J Edmonds:

I think she was phenomenal. I'm a little biased, but what I learned, like you just articulated so well, was her capacity to love, to forgive, and to understand that our journeys do create our testimony. They do create how we show up. And that a lot of things that she forgave people for because of the challenges they had in their lives that created the worldview that they had, the actions that they took, even the ones that hurt her. And so she was amazing in that capacity. And as I sought to emulate that, or actually do the best I could with my environment, I drew upon those things that were taught to me. And I talk a little bit about this in the book, when we talk about being authentic, and living your best life, having the career that you want, it always comes down to four components.




Tracy J Edmonds:

Self honesty. You've got to look yourself in the face and face the demon, whatever that may be, or just clearly articulate what you want out of your life and your career. You have to have the courage to own that. So once you say it out loud, you got to own sometimes what's very ugly, but also the big dream of what you could be. Then you have to have the confidence to work it out and the resilience to stick with it because it's never just a straight shot. There's going to be hills, valleys, turns, things you're going to have to navigate, times like I had in my career when I restarted my career where people say, "You're not so good at this." Whoa, ego blow. Never heard that before. But I didn't give up, and I cried about it, and I said, "Okay, here's the plan." So I think I learned those things from her.




Warwick Fairfax:

Remarkable. So I want to talk a bit about just some of the professional path you've gone through and really led to the book, and now you have your own kind of consulting company to try to help and uplift women, and particularly women of color. And it's probably your mission in life, and maybe that's your God-given calling or universe calling, however you frame it, which is awesome. But you had a very successful career and became Chief Diversity Officer of a very large company. So talk about some of that journey, because there seemed like a sort of a challenge in which, and I think as you articulate very well in the book, for many women, and I think as you've mentioned, women of color, there's a sense of, "Oh I need to do certain things to be corporate to fit in," because otherwise you don't rise up the ladder, you'll hit a glass ceiling.




Warwick Fairfax:

Talk about just that journey that you and others have been through, and why that whole Wild Hair metaphor is so important, because I thought that was just a brilliant way of articulating that message and your journey. So talk a bit about that whole Wild Hair meme and the whole wanting to fit into the perceived corporate mold.




Tracy J Edmonds:

Absolutely. I kind of grew up in corporate America. So I started my career in my early twenties in a frontline role. Worked for a major insurer in the state of Ohio really just processing health insurance claims. And I spent, as I mentioned before, 31 years at that company. And that company went from being just a statewide small insurance company to a national Fortune 30 public company, one of the most prominent in the field. And during that time, I went and achieved degrees, got married, had children, and navigated my way through that. But for a good portion of that part of my life, for almost 20 years, I would say that I wasn't really authentic. I wasn't really owning my career. I figured out what it took, or what I thought it took, to succeed in that environment. And that meant keeping my hair straight, looking as close to white as I could, and playing the corporate game, being the corporate soldier.




Tracy J Edmonds:

And that worked very successfully for me until I reached a level where I was right below the executive ranks, just about to make it into all the big bonuses and packages. And I was pregnant with our third child, and I kept hearing this voice in my head that was going, "What are you doing? How did you get here?" I'm like, "What? How did I get here? Well, I worked really hard and I did all these things and how did I get here?" And it wouldn't go away. It stayed in the back of my mind saying, "How did you get here?"




Tracy J Edmonds:

And the reality was, I was miserable. I had achieved success. I was making good money. I had the corner office, literally I had the corner office that overlooked a little brook in the back. It was beautiful. I had an assistant that sat right outside my door. And I was miserable. I was on the phone from morning to evening; I was exhausted when I got home. I wasn't as fully engaged with my children. And I'm going, "I've worked for this company 20 years, but how do I reach this point?" I was doing something I didn't even care about. I came to a company for tuition reimbursement and 20 years later I'm a regional vice president of operations with 300 employees and I'm going, "Okay, how the hell did I get here?"




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's an interesting crucible to discuss because, in essence, it's a crucible experience of success, right? There was a feeling of, I think you wrote somewhere, sort of a feeling of being trapped in the success. And most people don't think of crucibles as "good things that happened to us." But as the old saw goes, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. And as you bore more deeply into that good thing and explored that corner office and explored that assistant outside your door, you realized what it took to get there was to subjugate your personality a bit, to subjugate who Tracy was. And that was the crucible.




Tracy J Edmonds:

That's absolutely right. I realized that the "success" that I had in my career was primarily due to what others saw in me. And now don't get me wrong, I benefited by a great paycheck, a lot of perks, nice house, nice car, wonderful things that came from that. And I didn't take a job I ever didn't want, but it was because others saw something in me, and they wanted that. It was never about what I'd want. And so I had succeeded myself right into the crucible and I was burning up; I was literally burning up because I was miserable, it was inauthentic. I came there for tuition reimbursement, my God, and I'm still there 20 years later doing something that I found myself not caring about. And so my moment was when I realized when the dissonance and the voice in my head got so loud, I had no choice but to answer it.




Tracy J Edmonds:

How did I get here? And that's where those four steps we talked about, and I talk about in the book, of being self honest, having the courage to face what you learn about you, the confidence to execute a plan to make that happen, and the resilience to see it through, come into play. The Wild Hair was the moment when, even after I made the transition and I left what I knew and moved into human resources, so I did the soul searching, the self honesty, I navigated a path into a new role and I built myself up. But even as I was in that space, I still was kind of playing other people's game, until finally I said, "You know what? I need to be me. I have got to do me."




Tracy J Edmonds:

And my hair was an expression of that. And not because I was trying to do some big thing that stood out and shocked people, but simply because I had been tired for years of the process of making my hair look like white hair. That process took a lot of time. That process damaged my hair. That process was not what I really wanted. So it was a big decision to say, "I'm going to let this wild hair out, simply because this is who I am and what I want at this moment in time."




Tracy J Edmonds:

And when I did that, oh my goodness, let me tell you. There were people who could not close their mouth. They literally jaw dropped, "Oh my God." And you could see the look on their face because it was something so unexpected for them to see me look in this way. There were others who absolutely loved it. It was like, this is you. This feels like you. And it was my kind of Wild Hair moment. But what it really stood for is finding that Wild Hair, that thing that you are at a crossroads over, and handling it and addressing it and doing yourself in the process, being authentic.




Warwick Fairfax:

And it inspired other people, right? They said, "Wow, maybe if Tracy can do it, maybe I can do it," right? They admired your courage, and was like, "I can't believe she did that. I'd be too scared to." But you sort of laid a trail, if you will, for other women, other women of color. Because you write in the book, you'd spend hours on a Saturday or something, we're not talking five minutes. And there's a beautiful moment where the person did your hair, said something like, "Finally," or cheering you on. And yeah, people don't like to say anything, but when you do something it's like, "Oh, hooray."




Tracy J Edmonds:

Well you know what? I took a stand, and in this case I took a stand on my own beliefs and what I wanted for myself. But it has become symbolic for me in terms of what I'm really trying to do. So when you talk about purpose, I stand unapologetically for women. I stand here, all women, no matter what shade we come in, I want to be that inspiration. I want to be a source of affirmation more than anything. I want to affirm them, that when we don't look like the majority, it's still okay. You are affirmed. And I want to be that strength for them, for them to lean into their own leadership and show up in the way that is most comfortable for them.




Warwick Fairfax:

And you mentioned some statistics in the book, which I think most people are probably pretty familiar with, about women getting paid less than men, less women in the boardroom, the corporate C-suite, and the stats, according to your book, which I'm sure is true, it's even worse for African American women or women who are minorities relative to women in total. So it's not easy, but you are really preaching a different message, a different sermon, if you will, than some. Some women would say, "Well the key to success is: fit in. Be like the corporate folks. Be more like the male executives." And you are saying there's a different road, and it might actually be more successful, but at least you'll feel better about yourself whether it works or not. I think, not to put words in your mouth, I think you believe not only will you be more true to yourself, it actually might be more successful than trying to be somebody you're not. Is that kind of a fair summary?




Tracy J Edmonds:

I think that is a fair summary, because I have found, at least for me, and it's not just for me quite honestly, the women that I've coached, when I was true to myself, whatever that meant, if that meant the hair, if that meant putting my voice in the room, whenever I didn't allow that dissonance between what others expected of me and what I wanted to be, when I closed the gap between those two, I was more successful. I had more impact. My career evolved, and it happened for other women as well.




Gary Schneeberger:

Now Warwick, said he doesn't want to put words in your mouth, but I will put words back in your mouth, Tracy, because you and I have worked together a little bit on a press release for your book, which is coming out soon, which in fact by the time this airs may indeed be out. But you said this, I wrote this note down on something you said on this very subject, you said this, it was so good, I wrote it down and put quotes around. So I'm putting these words back in your mouth here on the show. "No matter where you work, it always comes down to your values," you said. "If you can't express your realness, you don't need to work there."




Tracy J Edmonds:

Absolutely. I wholeheartedly believe that and I advise others on that every single day. I had a really powerful moment with a young woman who met with me after I participated in a panel for the United Negro College Fund. So working with UNCF, they have a leadership program for their college students and they bring professionals and executives together to speak all the time. And I had my natural hair at that point. And afterwards this young woman comes up to me, beautiful, long natural hair, African American young woman, and she says, "I have to talk to you. I am beginning my interviews for internships, and I've spoken with my mom and my aunt and they both are telling me to relax my hair and to straighten it. And I really don't want to do that. That's just not who I am. But I'm afraid I won't get jobs."




Tracy J Edmonds:

And I told her, I said, "You know what, I'm going to stand up, I'm going to counter your mom, but are you comfortable with your hair?" "Yes." "Are you able to style your hair in ways that you believe will be professional? Because let's be real too, we have to know our environment. So can we style our hair or shape it in a way... I mean even people who have straight hair come to work with styles that are appropriate, colors that are appropriate, for the career that they want. If you're able to do that, my advice is for you to wear your natural hair. Because if they cannot accept you for who you are, when you show up in a professional manner, and you are capable of doing the job, then you don't want to be there." You don't want to be someplace where you have to subjugate who you are.




Tracy J Edmonds:

The challenge is when we get into environments, there's so many cues that we get, even when no one says directly, "Be less, be different, be straight-haired." What you see around you sends you those messages. So when I looked up, as I was growing in my career, and I would look up, no one looked like me, no one. When I would sit in the talent conversations and they would talk about the successful leaders and the folks who should move up in the succession ranks, typically there was something wrong with the folks who came in a little bit browner skin. There was something they just had to work on. "We love her, she's great. If we could just hone off this edge."




Tracy J Edmonds:

And so that, as you listen to that, you start to say, "Oh I better hone that edge down. I better straighten the hair," because when I see what is successful, it doesn't look like me. So part of what we have to do when we embrace our authenticity, part of it is we are creating the path for others. We are breaking new ground, we're breaking glass, to say this is what it takes and this is how it can look. Look at our vice president. This is how it can look.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely.




Tracy J Edmonds:

And be successful.




Warwick Fairfax:

It takes courage to be authentic. It won't work always. I mean I'm sure part of what you counsel is be careful where you want to work for, some environments are more friendly than others. None will be easy, but there's impossible, difficult, challenging, maybe perhaps you'll get there. But okay, if you can go for the maybe rather than you are sure to fail, because no matter what you do, they won't give you a chance, well maybe you avoid those ones. But there is, I think, the power...




Warwick Fairfax:

And we live in a culture where increasingly a lot of young people of all backgrounds, they want authenticity, they want vulnerability. We had a guy on our show, Chris Tuff wrote a book, The Millennial Whisper, and a lot of HR research shows that young people, they want real, "Give me the straight scoop, Don't tell me the pandemic's going to be over tomorrow. Be real with me. Tell me what's happening. Be authentic, be vulnerable." So there is part of a societal trend in that manner. It doesn't mean it's going to solve everything, but it helps a little bit. Even a couple little ripples or waves can be helpful.




Warwick Fairfax:

But it takes courage because you think it may not work, and it probably hasn't worked for decades or hundreds of years, but just being who you are and being willing to share some of your experiences, which may be very different than your boss', your coworkers', your life experiences. But that provides a basis of connection, of sharing stories. And sometimes we can be our own worst enemy, again, not saying it's people's fault, but by not sharing and trying to fit in I actually think it makes it harder in some ways. I don't think it makes it easier. You may think it might, but it's like people might say, "I don't really know who that person is, they're just so tight lipped." If you want to have an excuse, you're just actually giving them excuses in some sense. You're not helping yourself. I don't know, in some ways it's a bit like jumping off a cliff, but by being authentic and being vulnerable, it actually can create more connection and give you a greater chance of getting promoted. And not always, but that sounds like radical stuff. Does that make any kind of sense?




Tracy J Edmonds:

No, it makes total sense to me. When we're vulnerable and we are ourselves, we create a human connection, and that's very natural. Humans desire connectivity and connection. That's part of why mother has a baby, they lay the baby skin to skin. They want connection. It's a part of who we are as human beings. And it's interesting, because I'll tell you another story that when I was Chief Diversity Officer and I was doing a tour, if you will, where I was speaking about our plan for diversity, but I would talk about my hair, because what I wanted leaders to know is that there are subtle cues, like we talked about, that say, "You don't fit in." And I talked about my journey to my hair, what I shared with you all. And after that, lots of people come up to me, primarily women come up to me, because women can relate from, not just African American women, but keeping their hair from being gray.




Tracy J Edmonds:

I have a woman who told me directly that she had a leader tell her, "And get rid of that gray because you look old." Because she grayed early and she was in her twenties when she started to gray. But here's what really got me, is a white male came up to me afterwards and said, "Thank you for sharing your story." So I was a bit shocked. I said, "Okay, sure." Because he's in the majority, look around the room, there's a bunch of him. So I'm like, "Sure, you're struggling. You're really struggling to make it to the top."




Tracy J Edmonds:

But he said, "I have often not felt that I could fit in because I like to wear a beard, but none of the men here wear a beard. And I'm going to start wearing a beard because that is what I like to do in the wintertime. But none of the men here, none of the executives here, none of the folks who report to the CEO, they don't wear beards. And I didn't want to be unsuccessful, but that's who I am." And I was just so surprised that that resonated for him in terms of how he wants to show himself to the world.




Warwick Fairfax:

And there's a sort little secret here that people I don't think fully realize; every human on the planet is insecure. Some show it by their shyness and reticence, others by their bravado and arrogance. But arrogance is just a sign of insecurity, deep insecurity frankly. And so we're all like that. I mean, it's funny, I mean grew up in about as different a background from you as is possible.




Warwick Fairfax:

I grew up in Australia from a very wealthy, affluent, 150-year-old media dynasty, very respected family in the community, because we owned the equivalent of The Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal. So it's one thing to have money, it's another thing to be respected for generations as positive contributors to society. So you sort of hit all the benchmarks. You can have money but be vilified. But yet, Australia being a very egalitarian place, which is good in a lot of ways, even though I went to a very good boy's private school, everybody would say, "So you think you're better than us, do you?" Because their dads or mothers, they were bankers and lawyers, which you make a fair amount of money, but that's not media mogul level.




Warwick Fairfax:

So in my own small little way, it's like I wanted to be normal, I wanted to fit in, but I felt like I was in a class of one, because nobody was sort of like our family. So very different background, not trying to compare, not saying, "Oh it was also terrible." It wasn't. Nothing compared to what your mom went through. But my point is, as I was starting to talk about my story, it's like, "Who would want to hear my story about losing a 150-year-old, $2 billion business? Who would care?" And the time that changed for me is... We go to a non-denominational church in Maryland and I shared my story with just some regular folks and it's like they said, "Thank you, Warwick, your story helped me."




Warwick Fairfax:

How in the world can my story help any other human on the planet? Because nobody's gone through what I've gone through in that sense. Not that it's so bad. But it's, in a small way, a bit like your story. How in the world can a Wild Hair example of an African American woman help some white guy? How in the world? But it could. So I've learned in my own small way how your truth, your story, if it's shared with authenticity and vulnerability, can actually help other people. We think, "Oh nobody can relate to me, because I'm so different." In a very different way. I've sort of, not felt what you felt, but you get what I'm trying to say, is people tend to be insecure and tend to be, "Nobody really would understand me. If I tell them about who I am, nobody will. They'll laugh or they'll reject me," and every human's like that.




Warwick Fairfax:

So when you share your truth, it allows other people to do that. And it won't solve everything but it'll help more than you know. Anyway, a long winded way of saying I agree with you, but does that kind of make sense at all?




Tracy J Edmonds:

It totally makes sense and I think that that's a very powerful point in these times in particular. So when we think about how divided our country has been, and continues to be quite honestly, that power of human connection is where we can start to build communication. So my story and your story may seem like they don't relate to the people that we tell them to, to our audiences, but invariably we have someone who says, "You know what? I get that, because here's my story." And what that created was communication and dialogue and understanding between two people at a human level. And once we can start to really humanize one another, we can build from there, in terms of the issues that we address. And we may not always agree on things, but we've reached a place of commonality, of human kind.




Tracy J Edmonds:

And I think that's what's so critical in resolving some of these issues today. Because, like I said in my bio, I am an intelligent mother of a Black son, and I worry daily for his life simply because of the skin he's in. And so for me to be able to make connections with others who don't look like me and have a different point of view, that's powerful. That's how some of these issues can be resolved. And maybe one day I won't worry every night.




Warwick Fairfax:

I think what you're saying is so profound, because when you know somebody and their story and you humanize them, it's hard to hate somebody that you view as a human being. I'm not an expert in racism; I'm not a psychologist; I'm not a sociologist, but just looking at history, people who are hated, often it's because of gross ignorance, and you don't know them as people. You think of them as objects, whether it's Nazi Germany, or wherever. There's a lot of terrible examples of racism and inhumanity.




Warwick Fairfax:

But you start to know somebody's a real person, you might have all sorts of baggage and all sorts of screws loose, but it will tend to maybe melt the iceberg a little bit if you treat them as a human, if you try to seek to understand them. I love that phrase of St. Francis of Assisi's: "Seek first to understand, then be understood." Which sounds really radical, what do you mean? But your mother was actually living that in a lot of ways. Again, I'm not excusing anything, but the more we can try to understand people who are different than us, it's hard to hate people that you like and care for and understand, and it makes it harder. And why wouldn't we want to make hatred harder and coalitions more possible?




Tracy J Edmonds:

And we move from labels putting me in a category of Democrat or Republican, Trump supporter. I mean we get away from the labels and we go down a layer and we start to see each other as like you said, humans, individuals, feelings. There's a lot of similarities amongst the diversity.




Gary Schneeberger:

And a key way of doing that is what this conversation has been sort of orbiting around, and that is Wild Hair, right? It's the metaphor of Wild Hair, meaning the true essence of who you are. You are far, far more, Tracy, than your hair, but your hair is emblematic of who you are, and to suppress that denies the world the opportunity to know you, denies you the opportunity to be known by the world. And that's why it's so important, why you've discovered such freedom to pursue new things in your career, when you've made that decision to let that essence of yourself, that emblem of yourself, show through.




Tracy J Edmonds:

No, absolutely. It's about kind of giving yourself that gift of acknowledging and being everything that you can be. And that means you can't deny part of your essence. We can only rise to the level of our authenticity. So we only go as high as we keep it real. And so we have to be, again, that self honesty comes in, and sometimes that's depicted externally, like in my hair, but other times, sometimes, most times, it's that inner work, of what I really want and having the courage to pursue it in your career. So that's really important.




Tracy J Edmonds:

What I try to do with everyone that I coach is tap into the sense of what really defines them, their values, what is important to them. It starts being from a place of values and what you value in your life and the change you want to make in this world. And then we can define our careers in lots of different ways. We can't let other things dictate who we are and what we value.




Warwick Fairfax:

And I just want listeners to understand what you just said, because it's so profound. I love in your book you talk about authentic values alignment, more than just work life, which is related but slightly different. But just helping listeners, whether it's African American women, women in general, or people in general, is just be true to who you are and what you believe and follow a purpose that's in line with those values. We actually talk about this, in a sense, in crucible leadership is understanding your values, belief systems, faith, wherever it comes from, and having a purpose that aligns with that. And then as you start to make career and job choices, it's like, "Okay, does this organization, is this going to embrace who I am and my value? Can I be my authentic self?" If I'm not, then see ya. Moving on to the next place. And if you have some drive, there will hopefully be some options.




Warwick Fairfax:

But that is so true, especially with young people starting out. And you can obviously help folks in their forties, fifties, beyond. But helping young people learn this at the beginning, rather than later on, that's so huge. I mean when you talk to people, especially let's say young women of color, do they hear what you're saying, or do they say, "That's good for you, Tracy, but this isn't the real world." You said, "Well, I've lived in the real world for decades." But do you have some challenging conversations in which they say, "I'm not buying it, I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid. This is Disneyland. I mean, what are you talking about?" I mean, how do people that you're trying to persuade of your message, how do they respond? Do they hear you or do they just think you just full of it and just don't know what you're talking about?




Tracy J Edmonds:

Sometimes it is challenging for the younger generation in those conversations, and I test this out on my children, who are 35, 32, 23, 20, the ones that are out there in the workforce. And I find that those that are a little bit older millennials, the thirties, tend to pick up on this because now they've lived a little bit and they've seen this. But the conversation with the 20 year old, 23 year old, they come from an environment, and I don't like to label groups, but I think what we can say about that generation is they are a generation that had access to technology from birth. Unlike me, I didn't. I grew and then technology came in and I learned it. And what that has done is it's created this sense of hyper connectivity, this sense of immediate gratification, this sense of access. And so those things are happening constantly. And there isn't always the time made to reflect on values.




Tracy J Edmonds:

Values honestly get shaped by what they are connecting to and seeing thrown at them in so many ways. So I literally had a conversation with my son a couple of days ago where we were talking about the amount of crime that we're seeing in our city, in the city of Indianapolis, and especially the Black men who are being killed or killing one another. And the conversation centered around what kids or young adults their age want. And it's money, it's success. And when you come from an underrepresented and a socioeconomically challenged area, you don't always see the ways to get that that are safe and honest and values-based. What you see is, "How can I get this in a way that may not always be legal, it's the quickest way to get there." So sometimes I think that the much younger end of the millennial generation does struggle with defining their values.




Tracy J Edmonds:

Now I was pleased to say, and I have to give my son a plug, that he talked about what he had learned at home. And while he shares their perspective of, "I want it now," there are just absolutely some things he won't do to get it, in terms of illegal things that he just won't do to get it. And so we as parents, we play a strong role when we show up authentically and drive a values-based family system. But also we have to remember that our children are impacted by so many things outside of our control.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's really a values war that they're going to learn these lessons at some point, but hopefully it's not like on their deathbed. And one of the things we talked about is legacy. When you're having your last breath, or it's your kids and grandkids at your funeral, what is it you want them to say about you? At that point you don't want to say, "Yep, I was married three times, my kids don't know me. Oops." You don't want to be having that as your last thought.




Warwick Fairfax:

And we talk a lot about success versus significance. I mean there's a reason we talk about lead a life of significance. And again, this is an area where I know something about, because I grew up in about as wealthy a background as you can. And I can tell you there's a lot of wealthy people that are unhappy, kids on drugs, on their third or fourth marriage or beyond. I mean, okay, you have all this money and you're miserable. So what? It is possible to be successful, have money, and to be a blessing. Let's say you are focused on others, perhaps, maybe philanthropic, but there's a way that money can be a blessing. It doesn't have to be a curse, but the idea that money makes you happy, that's a lie that some of the world preach. But everybody realizes that at some point. But you don't want it to be on your deathbed when it's like, "Oops."




Warwick Fairfax:

I get why a lot of young people are thinking that way, but it's a false god, it's an idol, at the risk of getting spiritual. You can be successful, you can achieve, you can go for it, and be happy. You want to be happy? Think of others on the way up, think of the bigger picture. Don't just think of yourself. A self-motivated vision won't lead to joy, if that makes sense.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that is a perfect time, I think I heard the captain turn on the fasten seat belt sign, it's getting close to the point that we're going to land the plane. But before we do that, I want to do a couple of things, and, Warwick, I'll give you another chance of course to ask Tracy a question. But first, Tracy, first thing is how can listeners find out about your book, Wild Hair? Where can they find out more about you and about your book?




Tracy J Edmonds:

Absolutely. They can go out to my website. It's tracyjedmonds.com and it's Tracy with a Y.




Gary Schneeberger:

And Edmonds with an O.




Tracy J Edmonds:

Edmonds with a O. That's exactly what I was going to say. And on there you'll find out everything about me and you can scroll down to the bottom of any page and subscribe to get information about the book release and to stay in touch with me.




Gary Schneeberger:

Fabulous. That last bit of conversation that you and Warwick had, Warwick was talking about legacy. And, listeners, if you've been with us from the outset here, you heard early on in the conversation, Tracy said to me, "Well I'm not a poet." And that comment came from something that happened, unless you're watching us on YouTube, if you're listening to us just in a podcast app you didn't hear the whole thing, and that is we ask guests to give us their bio. And most guests copy and paste from their corporate page. Here's their bio.




Gary Schneeberger:

Tracy did something different and I think better and beautiful. Tracy wrote what I described, what Warwick described, as a poem. And I'd like you, Tracy, as we do begin to land the plane to just read for listeners, because I think this is a perfect legacy. If one's going to leave a legacy, what you wrote here is a great legacy of your life from stem to stern. So would you read what you wrote to us as your biography?




Tracy J Edmonds:

I'd be happy to. I am a daughter, sister, mother. A wife, a friend, a survivor of loss, a rebuilder. I am an entrepreneur with depression, a speaker with anxiety, a successful Chief Diversity Officer, and a recovering corporate soldier. An author, a listener, a fearful, intelligent Black woman with a son. An open mind, an open heart. A leader, a Lakers fan. I am a failure fighter success, complicated, multidimensional, unexpected. A coach, a consultant, a fierce believer in possibility, always growing, real.




Gary Schneeberger:

Warwick, you're braver than me to say something after that. I would wrap, but I'll let you have the last question and then I'll wrap the show after you and Tracy have a chat.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I just want to say thank you, Tracy, for being here, and I just found your message really inspirational, just that metaphor of the Wild Hair. It's funny, in spiritual circles, actually baptism, they talk about an outward manifestation of an inner transformation. You go to baptism class and a baptist church. I mean my church isn't Baptist, but I guess philosophically I guess it probably would be. And that's, in a sense, what you're talking about. It's an outward manifestation of the inner transformation, being authentically yourself. I love that. Just championing women of color, in particular women. But I would say your message is focused on that.




Warwick Fairfax:

But I think it is helpful to all human beings on this planet, being yourself, not compromising, being true to your values, living a life of purpose that's based on your values. That's a message everybody needs to hear. And I'm an optimist by major, so all things being equal, that will help you be more than less successful, though I'm not naive. But that's a message that I'd say all people need to hear. So I just found it very inspiring and thank you so much for being here.




Tracy J Edmonds:

Thank you.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well that's interesting. I say to Warwick, do you really want to follow what Tracy just said? And then Warwick steals what I was going to say. That's pretty much the summary I was going to give. The idea about crucibles being an opportunity to ask, "What can I learn?" The idea of embracing authenticity and following your values, as Tracy calls it, authentic values alignment. So Warwick, it's funny you didn't really follow Tracy, but you stole from me, which is great because you're the host of the show and that's the way it should be.




Gary Schneeberger:

So with that, listener, we want to thank you for spending this time with us today. And we have a little bit of a favor to ask you, Warwick and I do. If you like what you've heard here, please click subscribe on the podcast app on which you're listening right now, trundle over to the spot where you can leave a rating for us as well. What those things do is allow us to get the show out to more people and more conversations like this one with Tracy Edmonds, that offer hope and healing through times of crucible.




Gary Schneeberger:

And speaking of crucibles, remember this as we part for today. Your crucibles are painful. There is no doubt about that. What Tracy described here today was some painful times, what Warwick has described from the outset of this podcast that we've had here, has been some painful times. Your crucibles are real and they are painful, but they are not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning of your story, and that new beginning for you can be the start of a chapter in your story that's the most rewarding chapter yet. And the reason why is because, what Warwick said and what Tracy explained, both of them in their own ways have made this to be true, why it can be the most fulfilling time of your life is because in the end, that road you're on, when you learn the lessons of your crucible and apply them, is a road that leads to a life of significance.

This week we tie a bow on the package that has been our special summer series, LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure. Host Warwick Fairfax and cohost Gary Schneeberger discuss five key learnings from the eight episodes that comprised the series – spotlighting such highlights as Captain America’s oft-repeated mantra of “I could do this all day” as he faces challenges to John McClane’s never losing his sense of humor as he encounters an endless barrage of crucibles in DIE HARD.

Added into the conversational mix are additional stories that spotlight the takeaways from the series with some examples from prior podcast guests and Warwick’s and Gary’s own experiences.

Highlights

How the films came alive in a fresh way as we watched them through a Crucible Leadership lens (2:37)
We all have secret identities of some sort (5:26)
Why we spent 8 weeks talking about movie heroes (9:24)
Heroes produce “elevation: in us (9:56)
Heroes can heal our psychic wounds (12:55)
Heroes nourish our connections with other people (15:36)
Heroes show us how to transform our lives, turning us into heroes ourselves (20:01)
Lesson 1: Develop perseverance like Captain America did (25:53)
Podcast guest Lucy Westlake: a model of perseverance (31:35)
Lesson 2: Find a team of fellow travelers like Iron Man did (38:50)
Warwick’s own journey of finding a team of fellow travelers to help him achieve his vision (46:04)
Lessons 3: Live life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, like Spider-Man did (50:20)
Podcast guest Nancy Volpe Beringer found her calling as a fashion designer serving others (56:32)
Lesson 4: Don’s lose sight of your vision, or the values that undergird it, as Roy Hobbs did momentarily in THE NATURAL (1:02:38)
Podcast guest Hank McLarty rebuilt his business after learning this critical lesson after a steep cost (1:08:21)
Lesson 5: Keep your sense of humor, as John McClane does in DIE HARD (1:13:10)
Gary’s example of delving into humor delivering his eulogy for his father (1:17:18)
Warwick’s own experience of using humor to navigate his crucible (1:20:01)
Warwick’s message of hope to wrap up the series (1:23:05)
Reflection questions (1:26:44)

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Speaker 1:

Who are you under there? What are you hiding?




Speaker 2:

My son dreamt of a better world. That's why he saved me.




Speaker 3:

You can go to any timeline, any universe. Why fight to save this one?




Speaker 4:

What could be greater than a king? The hero.




Speaker 5:

I just got goosebumps.




Speaker 6:

If we don't stand up, no one will.




Speaker 7:

Come with us. It's a glorious world out there waiting for you.




Speaker 8:

Are you in?




Gary Schneeberger:

Are you in? Perfect question to ask this week as we tie a bow on the package that has been our special summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles: what our favorite movie heroes can teach us about overcoming setbacks and failure.




Gary Schneeberger:

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of this show. This week, Warwick and I discuss five key learnings from the eight episodes that have comprised the series, spotlighting such highlights as Captain America's oft-repeated mantra of, "I could do this all day," as he faces challenges, to John McClane's never losing his sense of humor as he encounters an endless barrage of crucibles in Die Hard. We add into our conversational mix additional stories that spotlight the takeaways from the series with some examples from prior podcast guests and our own experiences. It all adds up to a discussion we hope is as rousing and inspirational as that clip we played at the top, focused on the superhero films already released or coming soon from DC films this year. We're in and we hope you are too.




Gary Schneeberger:

We did eight episodes in Lights, Camera, Crucibles, of eight movies featuring heroes. Just to run through them, they were superheroes, action heroes and sports heroes. Let's see if I can recall all eight, Warwick. There was Spider-Man, there was Captain America, they're here. There was Ironman, there was The Natural Roy Hobbs, there was Robin Hood, there was Batman, there was Die Hard, John McClane. And there's one more that was eight. There was... I'm missing one that is falling out of my brain.




Warwick Fairfax:

Was that, have you already got Hoosiers?




Gary Schneeberger:

Hoosiers! That was the last one we did. You'd think I'd remember that. So yes, Hoosiers and Norman Dale, the coach in Hoosiers who's a great redemption story. So those are the folks that we tugged on for insights in equipping you, listener, for how to overcome crucibles. And there were a bunch of lessons and we're going to hit on some of those here, but before we get into the nitty gritty, the meat and potatoes of this, Warwick, one of the things we both said during the series was that these are all movies that we love. These are all movies that we've seen more than one time in most cases. And yet, watching them with this lens on, for Beyond the Crucible, made them richer than they had been before just watching them as popcorn entertainment, having some chuckles while you're watching the movie. Watching them to pull out actionable lessons for how to move beyond the crucible and lead a life of significance. These movies came alive in fresh ways, didn't they?




Warwick Fairfax:

They really did, Gary. Typically, as you say, when you watch a movie it's to be entertained. You don't watch Ironman saying, "What are the leadership and life lessons that can help me lead and be a better human being?" whether it's The Natural in Roy Hobbs or Robin Hood. So watching all these movies and just trying to understand what are the drops of redemption, the lessons learned, the character of growth in all of these heroes. It was really instructive. There's a lot of lessons.




Warwick Fairfax:

When you look at movies with superheroes, it's easy to think, "What can I learn from the superhero? Because I'm not a superhero." But often the lessons we learn is how they dealt with human emotions, with loss, with their own agenda and aggrandizement versus serving others. These are all lessons that all of us can learn, so it was really fun looking at it through a different lens.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's interesting, one of the things that never came to me until right now when you said that through any of the eight episodes that we've done before this one, this wrap up one, was, for superheroes in particular, most of them have "secret identities." There's what the public knows of them on one sense as the individual and then as the hero.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's sometimes our stories too. We have inner lives that maybe other people don't know about and that can be in itself a challenge to navigate as we're walking through a crucible. People expect, perhaps, we're going to react in a certain way because they don't quite know our secret identity, what's roiling around in our heart.




Gary Schneeberger:

Is that fair? That sometimes what makes crucibles difficult is that what we project to the world may not be how we're living inside.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. That is always one of the challenges. We might seem to be confident, outgoing, we've got it all together and inside we're broken or in bad cases dying inside. So yeah, it's an interesting thought that a lot of these superheroes have secret identities. We might have a secret identity inside and the secret identity might be I feel like a loser, I'm messed up, I'm broken. You shouldn't love me. You shouldn't care for me if you had any common sense.




Warwick Fairfax:

So yeah, I think we all need to deal with the inside because the inside that negative self talk can damage our ability to lead, can damage our ability to live. So yeah, the inner demons, the inner conversations we need to deal with, certainly. And most of these superheroes have inner demons, have inner challenges. It's hard to think of any superhero that doesn't have inner challenges.




Gary Schneeberger:

And not just the superheroes that we talked about, but also the other heroes, who talked about inner demons, talked about problems. Norman Dale, the coach in Hoosiers, this sort of hidden thing where he assaulted one of his players in college and got banned from the NCAA. John McClane who has troubles with his wife and his family is falling apart. There are things going on in life that if I've heard you say it once, I've heard you say it a 100 times, we have to do the soul work that is required of bouncing back from a crucible as well as some of the practical work. That, it's fascinating to me that this is the ninth time we've talked about movie heroes and that just popped up into my head, is that's something else that we have to learn from this process, that we can't always keep our secret identity secret. Right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I think we can't help others until we help ourselves. I think in the faith-based world, they talk about evangelism begins at home. You've got to preach to yourself before you even contemplate preaching to others. And so, getting beyond a crucible, which is the title of this podcast, typically means doing a lot of soul work. Until you deal with your inner demons, your inner issues, you won't be able to help anybody because you'll be weighed down. It's like trying to run a marathon with five tons on your back. You won't get very far. You will just stop on your tracks.




Warwick Fairfax:

So yeah, for all those people out there, I'm a very reflective person but lot of people aren't. It's like, "I don't want to do this inner stuff. I'm too busy. I want to help a bunch of other people." You want to help other people? You need to help yourself. Otherwise, you're not going to help anybody. That should motivate even those non-reflective people out there.




Gary Schneeberger:

Amen. And that's a good thing, right? That's one of the great things about this series has been the things that come to our minds as we're talking through this, that was a point that we had not planned to make. And look at that, we made that point.




Gary Schneeberger:

But listener, you may be wondering in a fuller sense why did we spend eight weeks? Why did Beyond the Crucible spend eight weeks talking about movie heroes, superheroes, sports heroes and action heroes? And just to level-set us as we get going and talk about what we're calling Five Ways to Transform Into a Crucible Busting Hero, that's the theme of the episode today. But before we get there, we're going to do a little crop dusting here with just some ideas about why we're talking about heroes at all.




Gary Schneeberger:

And we're going to revisit something we talked about in the first episode, not in depth, but just to give you an idea of why we chose these types of movie characters. And that comes from a Psychology Today article about how heroes can improve our lives. What is it about heroes that improves our lives? And the first point of that article was that they produce in us an emotion called elevation.




Gary Schneeberger:

It goes back to an article in 2014 which says that research suggests heroes and heroic action evoke a unique emotional response that scientists have labeled "elevation." Thomas Jefferson used to talk about this as the way people felt moral elevation when they read great literature.




Gary Schneeberger:

How do heroes elevate us in that sense, Warwick? How do you think that plays out?




Warwick Fairfax:

I think heroes, they kind of sweep us along in this sort of tide of, I don't know if it's euphoria or encouragement, they really just lift us up. They inspire us. They make us think, "That's who I want to be, that kind of save the day, help people." They appeal to our better angels. You've obviously got Spider-Man who rescues Mary Jane as he defeats the Green Goblin. Batman, obviously in the movie that we looked at, saves Gotham City from the Joker who is terrorizing everybody. And obviously, poor John McClane is going out to the coast to have some fun with his wife.




Gary Schneeberger:

And a few laughs, yeah.




Warwick Fairfax:

Have a few laughs and ends up having to combat terrorists at Nakatomi Plaza. With all of these, we tend to see ourselves in the role of hero in the sense of, "I'd like to be the one to save the day even in a small way to do something good for my family, friends, coworkers. I'd like to do something right for a change." So there is this sense that it elevates ourselves, it elevates the sights and how we look at ourselves. So yeah, I think the heroic movies can have really great effect on us.




Gary Schneeberger:

It's kind of like the clip that we played at the beginning of the show, which is the trailer for 2022 from DC Films, the people who do Batman, Aquaman, The Flash, this idea that the world needs heroes. There's a sense of awe when you encounter heroes, when you see what heroes do that just can't help make you feel elevated. Can't help but make you stand up and cheer. And that's an important thing for us, especially as we're battling a crucible, is to just have this sense of having your spirits lifted.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's the first point of why we dug deeply into heroes for this series. Second one is that heroes can heal our psychic wounds. I thought this was fascinating, that this article in Psychology Today talked about how in ancient cultures tribe members huddled around a big campfire together at the end of the day. They gathered for warmth because they didn't have heat in their caves. They gathered for warmth, but they also did something else: they told stories. The physical warmth of huddling together was lifesaving, but in some ways, life enriching the stories that they told, it made life more attractive, easier to get through. It inspired them.




Gary Schneeberger:

Again, going back to the first point, there was awe in those stories, there was exhilaration, there was elevation in those stories. That worked out again in what we talked about here and the films that we addressed on this show, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely. Cultures for thousands and thousands of years have talked about heroes. I don't think there's ever been a culture in the history of the world that doesn't have heroes, that people will gather around the campfire telling stories. Obviously, one that we've spoken about is Robin Hood that goes back to, I don't know, 1100-1200s. And people have been telling stories about Robin Hood that is a mythic person and the stories have changed from original Robin Hood was Robin Long Stride, a common man, a common yeoman. Then later, a few hundred years later, it became a Saxon noble that was oppressed by the Normans that controlled England at the time.




Warwick Fairfax:

But Robin Hood has been around for hundreds of years as this guy that would defend the defenseless, the oppressed, the poor, the common man, the common woman against the tyranny of Prince John and his henchmen. So there is something about just telling stories of heroic figures, it just touches us. I think back to the ancient Greek heroes of Odysseus and the Trojan Wars taking 10 years to get back from Troy to his native Greece, and Achilles and Agamemnon, all of these great heroes. Greeks have been telling stories about the ancient Greek and heroes for thousands of years. So it's a part of our culture, part of every culture of just telling stories of heroes. It's healing, it's soothing. We all love doing it.




Gary Schneeberger:

Our third point from the Psychology Today article, again, which we're not getting into in any depth, we're just doing a drive-by with it. But the third point is heroes nourish our connections with other people. "Storytelling," the article says, "is a community-building activity. The sense of connectivity it builds is critical to human emotional wellbeing. Hero stories create a strong sense of social identity."




Gary Schneeberger:

I haven't shared this with you, Warwick, because I just got it yesterday. By yesterday I mean the day before we're recording this episode. And if you remember, listener and Warwick, when we talked about Ironman, I made reference to watching that movie and the funeral of Tony Stark in that film. And I mentioned how my nephew, a young man in his twenties, late twenties, was so moved by that experience. I did not tell him I mentioned him in the podcast, but yesterday he sent this text to me. Listen to what he wrote in light of what I just said, "Storytelling is a community building activity, a sense of connectivity. It's critical to human emotional wellbeing."




Gary Schneeberger:

This is what my nephew Luke wrote me, "You know, every now and again I will see videos people took in theaters during Avengers End Game at the end when all the Avengers come together and how everyone just loses it." In other words, there are videos going around about everybody crying when all the Avengers come together during Tony Stark's funeral. And my nephew says further, "I remember being very depressed at that time and unmotivated to really do or enjoy anything and that you invited me along opening weekend to see it. I got to experience that. And every time I get to look back at these kinds of videos, I still feel the rush of excitement and how groundbreaking that movie was and that everyone who enjoyed the MCU got to experience it together. It's one of my most treasured memories." That is the power of social connection, the power of emotional connectivity that can come from hero movies, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

It really can. I think in heroes in general, it's funny, just as you were saying that, talking about your nephew, the way that my father and I connected was through stories about heroes. That was the language that he communicated love to me. We were living in England when I was about, I don't know, six or seven or so. He read me a book speaking of Greek heroes, like a, I don't know, 1800's book called The Heroes by Charles Kingsley. It talked about all the Greek heroes, Perseus, Theseus, just some different mythical folks.




Warwick Fairfax:

When I was small, I would say, "Daddy, just tell me some history." I didn't care what it was, just some historical story. And he was like an encyclopedia, he'd read every... About every hero he loved, British heroes in particular. So there'd be stories of Admiral Horacio Nelson and the Battle of Trafalgar 1805 and Duke of Wellington and Waterloo in 1815. That's the way we communicated.




Warwick Fairfax:

And with these movies, you and I obviously talked about how much we like The Natural and Captain America and Hoosiers, one of the all-time favorite sports movies with Norman Dale and that sense of redemption, as you mentioned, after getting banned from basketball. So yeah, it's a source of connection. When you talk about the heroes that you love. It's a way of creating bonds between father and son, mother and daughter, brothers, sisters. It's a point of connection.




Gary Schneeberger:

That text that I just read from my nephew, that he says going to Avengers End Game with the family, with my immediate family, was a treasured memory. That text from him is a treasured memory. That's a connection between the two of us.




Gary Schneeberger:

The fourth point in that article, which is the natural progression. If we're elevated, if we're in community, if we're feeling connected, at the end of the day then heroes show us how to transform our lives, turning us into heroes ourselves. And if you've been with us, listener/viewer from the beginning, if you've watched Beyond the Crucible you know that I'm not adverse to wearing outfits. So because it's true that heroes turn us into heroes ourselves, I've worn a hero shirt today that says Super Step-Dad.




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh, that's-




Gary Schneeberger:

You see it behind my microphone.




Warwick Fairfax:

That is awesome.




Gary Schneeberger:

But there it is. That was a gift for my stepchildren for Christmas a couple years ago. These movies do encourage us to become in some ways heroes in our own spheres of influence.




Gary Schneeberger:

Comparative mythologist Joseph Campbell said in 1988 that all of us undergo a hero-like journey throughout our lives. It's only by having the courage and faith to risk change and growth in our own lives that we reach our own potential. And it's nearly impossible to watch any of these movies that we're discussing and not feel that. Not feel that pull to heroism and all different kind of shades of it. It's impossible. It was impossible for us to watch these movies, it's been impossible for all audiences to watch these kinds of movies without feeling the pull to wanting to do that yourself.




Warwick Fairfax:

For me, as I mentioned, I grow up just hearing about heroes from my dad and figures in history. And so I would obviously watch heroic movies, read books about a few English kings and queens as well as American heroes. I've always loved American history. So reading books about Franklin Roosevelt or Abraham Lincoln, and it would inspire me.




Warwick Fairfax:

Just one example, Franklin Roosevelt was somebody that in one sense I identified with because I grew up, as listeners know, in a very privileged 150 years old family media business in Australia, and Franklin Roosevelt grew up in sort of New York state aristocracy, if you will. The Roosevelts were prominent folks. He transformed his character to being maybe this fun loving party guy, a man about town. And over time he became somebody that was concerned about others, becoming one of the great presidents in the Depression, World War II.




Warwick Fairfax:

So I would look at Franklin Roosevelt, not so much that I could ever be Franklin Roosevelt, but if somebody from a background like mine, which was wealthy and privileged, could actually focus on others, then maybe I also could transform myself and be focused on helping others, not just about money, power, or fame, or what have you. So heroes can inspire us to be better than ourselves and transform ourselves.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I had not thought about this again until you just said that, but Franklin Roosevelt in some ways early in his life, was a little Tony Stark early in his life, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yes.




Gary Schneeberger:

He was that guy who had everything to live for, but not really much to live with. No one was as hedonistic as Tony Stark, but there were some similar beats there. You had some of the same background perhaps, but you maybe channeled that more into Batman, not the dark parts of Batman, but Batman is never really depicted as a playboy, as a guy who spends his money on himself, he's always dedicated to helping others.




Gary Schneeberger:

So that's just kind of a fascinating way of it's interesting how a lot of the heroes that we talked about, at least a couple of them here, came from means, and yet they went in different directions, kind of starting out, landed in the same place, which is the goal of why we're doing this series is to get everybody from the origin story to the life of significance at the end. That's what we're hoping to bring to you, listener, as we talk about these things.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. And just a brief point on Roosevelt and Iron Man, and we'll get into this later, Iron Man gets captured by folks and it sort of changes his character in a way from hedonistic to maybe caring for others. While the equivalent of that for Franklin Roosevelt, as listeners would know, in the early 20s, he got polio, which was very rare for adults. And back in those days, if you got polio your political career was over, you were meant to stay home.




Warwick Fairfax:

It was almost like this social disease, not just a physical disease, it was almost shameful, which is ridiculous. It's not your fault. And so he had to fight through that and both Iron Man and Roosevelt went through different tragedies that transformed their characters. So sometimes real life, R-E-A-L and R-E-E-L can imitate each other.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. Absolutely. That's one of the things that makes movies like that so resonant is that they do have their beats in the real life, R-E-A-L experience that we know of. And sometimes we have ourselves.




Gary Schneeberger:

All right, we're going to pivot now and get into the meat of what we're going to talk about today. And that's just to put a bow on the package that was Lights, Camera, Crucibles. And that is this idea of here are five ways to transform into a crucible busting hero, using examples from, and we're going to do it interestingly, I think, we're going to do it from R-E-E-L life and also R-E-A-L life.




Gary Schneeberger:

So we're going to touch on, talk about what we learned from the heroes we went through, but then we're going to comb back through the archives of some podcast episodes, tell some personal stories to kind of emphasize, put an exclamation point on the points that the heroes teach us.




Gary Schneeberger:

So here's the first of those five ways to transform into a crucible busting hero that comes out of our series Lights, Camera, Crucibles. And then number one is to develop perseverance.




Gary Schneeberger:

Captain America does a great job of spotlighting this need. It tells the story of Steve Rogers who's a slight sickly guy, young man, we meet at the outset of the film. It's during World War II and he wants desperately to go to war. He wants to fight for America because he can't stand bullies and he sees the Nazis as exactly what they were, bullies, but he gets turned down because he is so small and he is so sickly.




Gary Schneeberger:

Every time he actually breaks some rules about going to different recruiting stations, trying to get into the war effort. But one of the times he gets rejected, a doctor sees him from the shadows, a guy named Dr. Erskine sees him. He is trying to find a soldier to give this Super Soldier Drug he's developed, which if it's successful, can then be given to all people, all men in the military and that's going to help us win the war.




Gary Schneeberger:

What he sees, what Dr. Erskine sees, in this Brooklyn kid is a kindness and humility and a never say die attitude. He refuses to take the military's no for an answer. And that's one of the reasons why Dr. Erskine gives it to him. But we as viewers, Warwick, see a scene with Steve Rogers earlier than that, when he gets in a fight, because he wants to hear the reels at the movie theater that he's at, he wants to hear these news reels talking about the war effort. And these guys are making a lot of noise while that's going on. And he gets in an argument with one of them. The bully takes him outside. What happens at that point that really hammers home, this idea of developing perseverance?




Warwick Fairfax:

They start kind of attacking him and beating him up. And at the time he is just this relatively slight, short, slim of build, and they just keep beating him up and he keeps getting back up and is bloodied. And he says, "I could do this all day." It's like he won't quit. He's getting pounded, but he just won't quit. That's just amazing. Is he going to win that battle? It's hard to see how he could, pre-serum, but he just won't quit. He just keeps getting back up.




Gary Schneeberger:

The bully from the theater, who the first time we hear, "I could do this all day," from Steve Rogers, the bully in the theater says to him, as he keeps punching him and Steve keeps getting up, "You just don't know when to give up, do you?" And that's when he says, "No, I could do this all day." And that is a critical thing that we see throughout the movie from him. And not just in this movie throughout, that line, if you're a familiar with Captain America's arc through all of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, he says it more than once.




Gary Schneeberger:

He actually says it to himself one time when he travels back in time and he gets in a fight with Captain America of several years earlier, who's trying to beat him up and he's like, "Stay down." He's like, "I could do this all day." That in some ways, as we watch the arc of Steve Rogers, that attitude of, "I could do this all day," even more than the strength and agility he gets from the Super Soldier Serum is one of the things that qualifies him as a hero. Isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's fascinating how Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers. It was this what fueled his, "I could do this all day" attitude. He was humble. He hated bullies. He just had this sense of righteousness, this desire to defend the defenseless. And Dr. Erskine said a strong man, somebody who's had all the gifts. He's not necessarily going to have your sense of compassion, your sense of caring for others.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so Dr. Erskine shows character first. And really when you think about what fuels Steve Rogers' perseverance post serum, when he is a strong, powerful guy it's because it's not about him. It's about this humble attitude of serving others. It's set in World War II. So it's defeating Nazi Germany.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's he could do this all day because people are counting on him, people are counting on him and his team, and he will never quit because quitting would mean letting down the defenseless. He will never let the defenseless down. He will always take the bullies on. So really his character is what fuels his perseverance.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that is such an excellent point. And it's the reason why you're the host of the show and I'm the cohost of the show because that's pulling meat out of what's going on there. That's exactly right. Never once does Steve Rogers, Captain America say, "I could do this all day just to win a fight." It's always to win a fight that has a purpose at the end of it. There's always a grander purpose than just being victorious for him.




Gary Schneeberger:

Here's now where we're going to transition from reel life, R-E-E-L to real life, R-E-A-L. And we're going to, as I was kind of preparing for how we were going to go about this discussion, one of the past guests from this podcast popped into my head as a great example of, "I could do this all day," even though she never said those words that way.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that guest was Lucy Westlake, a young girl, young woman, who was 17 at the time we talked to her who we featured in our Harnessing Resilience series. She already holds a world record. She's the youngest female to ever scale the highest peaks in every US state think about that. She climbed mountains that sometimes stretch more than 20,000 feet into the sky. And to do that, you've got to have kind of a purpose and a vision, and you've got to be able to deal with some setbacks.




Gary Schneeberger:

In fact Lucy Westlake encountered some crucibles and some setbacks, and she needed to muster, in her own way this idea of, "I could do this all day," didn't she?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Here she is desiring to climb all the peaks in all 50 states, and one of the hardest is Denali in Alaska. And at age 13 she went to climb that. And I think with her dad at the time, she didn't make it. The wind was just massive. It was a lot tougher, the weather than she had hoped, and she would not do it. And it was four years before she was able to successfully climb it, which was age 17, which was relatively recent.




Warwick Fairfax:

But she has this phrase, I guess the equivalent of Steve Rogers', "I could do this all day." And she says, "Failure is inevitable. How you react to it is what matters."




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, that's great.




Warwick Fairfax:

She did not give up. It's like, "Okay, you're going to fail. Sometimes the weather is horrendous and what are you going to do? It happens. Try again. Don't give up." Maybe it will be several years later, but she was not defeated by that defeat, if you will. It was a temporary setback, not a defining defeat. And she was not going to give up. For somebody so young, it is so inspiring.




Gary Schneeberger:

And again, what she was after was not just personal aggrandizement. She had a goal, a vision, a mission to accomplish this thing, to prove to herself that she could do it. And so the takeaway here, listener, from both Steve Rogers, Captain America, and Lucy Westlake is this idea of perseverance of, "I could do this all day." This idea that, "Failure is inevitable, how you react to it is what matters."




Gary Schneeberger:

That's what Warwick talks about in his book, Crucible Leadership. It's what this podcast is built around. This idea that failures and setbacks don't define you. They're not the end of your story. They can be the beginning of your story. And Steve Rogers getting beaten up in an alley was the beginning of his story, of his life of significance. And Lucy Westlake not getting to the top of Denali at 13 was just a midpoint in her story that has then moved on to world record status. Pretty impressive, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. And while we're speaking of Lucy Westlake, I'm reminded of Lisa Blair, and she was the Australian woman that we had on the podcast who sailed around Antarctica. She wanted to be the first woman to sail around Antarctica and break the record for the fastest trip around.




Warwick Fairfax:

And what's interesting is she did do that, but she was trying to do it uninterrupted. And at one point I think a mast fell and she had to go north out of the lane, so to speak, that was going around Antarctica and head to Cape Town South Africa for repairs. And what's interesting is a few years later, I think it might have been even earlier this year, she finally completed it. And she has this great phrase which is, "Failure is not trying." It's very similar to Lucy. Westlake's, "Failure is inevitable. How you react to it is what matters."




Warwick Fairfax:

It's very similar notions and what's remarkable about Lisa Blair, as she puts it, is she is not particularly tall, not particularly athletic, and this is her perspective, she would say she's an every woman. She'd say, "There's nothing special about me. I'm just like any other woman."




Warwick Fairfax:

But what's special about her and what's special about Lucy Westlake is their character, their perseverance, they never say die. That's their superpower. It's not physical or any other particular attribute, physical attribute anyway, it's more internal. It's that sense of, "Never say die. Failure is not trying. You've just got to keep going." They're similar stories, but they're remarkably motivating.




Gary Schneeberger:

And when you say that, Warwick, what that triggers in my mind, go back to the Captain America episode. What impressed you so much about his fight, Captain America's fight with the Red Skull? Who also had received that serum and it made bad worse. It made him evil. And he was, tell the story. What was he trying to get out of Captain America about why he had the Super Serum too?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Well Red Skull was saying, "Well, why you? You're aren't the strongest, the best, the smartest, the whatever that America has to offer." And he said, "I'm nothing special. There's nothing special about me. I'm just like any guy." And it just floored Red Skull because he was meant to be this super Aryan German who took it before from Dr. Erskine back when he was sort of trapped in Germany and just without Dr. Erskine's blessing, he just couldn't understand how, this super Aryan guy, "Of course I should have it. I'm the best of the best. I'm the best, the most German of the Germans. Who's this guy? Some kid who's nothing special?" He just couldn't process that from Steve Rogers.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. So Steve Rogers and Lisa Blair both talk about themselves as just average everyday people and Lucy Westlake would do the same thing. And that's the takeaway here, listener. You can learn this idea of never say die, failure is only if you don't try, and I could do this all day. That's the takeaway. You're going to hit crucibles, have that attitude, and that will help you become a crucible busting hero.




Gary Schneeberger:

Point two from our R-E-E-L life that we talked about is find a team of fellow travelers. And you talk about this a lot in Crucible Leadership, Warwick, the importance of having a team of advisors who don't just tell you what you want to hear, but what you need to hear. And early on in Iron Man, when Tony Stark is sort of depicted, his backstory is depicted, Tony Stark doesn't have a whole lot of fellow travelers who are anything more than admirers.




Gary Schneeberger:

They're not a lot of people speaking truth into his life, but then he's attacked while demonstrating some of his weapons in Afghanistan, he's a weapon's manufacturer. Some of his missiles get fired upon where he's at. He suffers a very traumatic injury and his life is saved while he is in captivity by another man who's in captivity, a fellow scientist named Ho Yinsen, puts a magnet in his chest to keep the shrapnel from going in his chest.




Gary Schneeberger:

But Ho Yinsen does a lot more than that for Tony, does a lot more than just save Tony Stark's life. He actually makes it worth saving. How does he do that?




Warwick Fairfax:

He saves his life physically, but he saves his life spiritually, emotionally. In a sense, he saves his soul and he does what maybe nobody has done before to Tony Stark, he's in captivity, he's in a dark vulnerable place. Maybe he's in a place where he would listen as opposed to before he is going to parties, drinking, gambling, driving fast cars, it's all about, "Hey, I'm making money. I'm making money out of weapons. Who cares? It's all about me."




Warwick Fairfax:

When you think of superheroes, it's hard to think of anybody more narcissistic than a pre-captivity's Tony Stark. He gets the gold medal for narcissist, I think. Ho Yinsen, his fellow prisoners says, "Basically you can be more than this. Is this all you're going to be, just making weapons and Mr. Party guy? Is this what you want your legacy to be? Is this what you want your life to be? You could be so much more than this. You could use your money for so much more."




Warwick Fairfax:

He just really puts a knife in his soul. Yes, he's got this new heart from technology, but in a sense, not only does he give him a heart transplant, for the technology, he gives him a soul transplant. He just puts a knife into his soul and it doesn't make Tony Stark a perfect altruistic human being but he makes a significant change in his character from that moment.




Warwick Fairfax:

And he begins to realize, "I'm using all my technological engineering brilliance to make weapons that in some cases are coming back to kill Americans, because it's hard to control where weapons end up and maybe I should use technology to save the planet, to make the world a better place." So that fellow traveler, that's speaking truth to power, took a lot of courage, and it changed his life. And in a sense helped redeem his soul.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And it changed the trajectory of what he was able to do. In other words, his vision, his vision changed. We talk a lot about vision here at Beyond the Crucible and Crucible Leadership and his vision changed from really having no vision but living day by day.




Gary Schneeberger:

Ho Yinsen says to him at one point, "You have a lot to live with, but nothing to live for." And what he discovers as he has a team of fellow travelers and Ho Yinsen, being the first one of those, Pepper Pots, his assistant, who he kind of loves but he learns how to love as the movie goes on. And certainly as the arc of Tony Stark's story throughout all nine movies he appears in in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, he develops that.




Gary Schneeberger:

But you're absolutely right. He's not perfect. And, listener, as you listen to this, my guess is you're not perfect and don't think you're perfect either. I know I'm not perfect. Warwick would say he's not perfect. I think, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I think one of the things, what saying is it's fine to aspire, maybe not to superhero physical attributes, maybe to have the character of Steve Rogers, the perseverance, the humility of him. Or as we're talking about Tony Stark to use your qualifications, your attributes, to serve others. But none of us are going to have superhero level characters. It's a journey. We can aspire, but we're all going to fail.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, it's not a matter of, to quote Lisa Blair, "We're going to fail in our characters. It's not failing, it's are you going to get back up and try again? Are you going to keep going? Or you going to let one bad mistake define you?" And so that's really the journey of character is we're never going to be superhero in character, but we can aspire to keep getting better and moving forward and not letting one bad day define us.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's one of the reasons why this point find a team of fellow travelers is so important to us, as we move on our journeys, is when we feel like we can't go on, when we feel like we're not worthy of going on, those fellow travelers can speak encouragement to us. They can remind us of things that we've done well, they can offer their perspective on maybe some things we should try.




Gary Schneeberger:

And as we talk about this, Warwick, it brings to mind for me, a key point that we make in, and get your pens out, listeners, because you'll want to know more about this. It brings to mind what we're going to debut soon. And that is an E-course called Discover Your Second Act Significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's all about facing that tough question that comes to many of us when we consider our life and career. That question is, is this all there is? When we reach that moment, is this all there is, I feel stuck. I feel like life could be more. I feel like I should be doing something different. We all come to that point at some time.




Gary Schneeberger:

This E-course is going to drill down deeply and to help people who take it, learn how to do that, how to answer that "is this all there is?" Question, identify it, answer it, and then chart a course moving forward. And it will guide you, truly, this course will guide you on a journey of discovery to awaken your passion, to craft a vision rooted in your talents, and unleash a more fulfilling life. That leaves a legacy you'll be proud of.




Gary Schneeberger:

More details to come very soon, but you won't want to miss it. So stay tuned. And in that E-course, Warwick, one of the things that you say and you talk at some length about it is your own fellow traveler's journey of moving beyond your crucible and charting a course to a life of significance. A life of...




Gary Schneeberger:

A life of significance is a team sport you discovered, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. As we're doing the e-course and reflecting on this, I think there's really two types of fellow travelers. You want those who encourage you and at times be truth tellers. We need people who will do both. There are times when we need to be picked up and saying, "You know what? Your worst day doesn't define you. I believe in you. I'm with you." It could be a spouse, a friend, a coworker. And it may be, "You know what? You are better than that mistake. You kind of left the trail. You left the mission." So encouragement and truth, two sides of the same coin.




Warwick Fairfax:

But then there's another type of fellow traveler, which is those who complement you. By that, I mean that they have attributes and skills that you don't have, compliment in that sense of the word, not in terms of flattery. So yeah, as I was thinking about that way, that could be misunderstood. But anyway, for me, with Crucible Leadership, I am blessed to have a fantastic team. They encourage. They absolutely do truth telling and says, "Yeah, I don't know that we should be doing that." And we wrestle with things and figure out a path forward. But they have attributes that I don't have. I'm a reflective person. I like telling stories, my own story and stories of others on this podcast. But I don't like selling. I'm just phobic about that. Some people are scared of heights. I can't do the whole selling thing. So we've got people that are great at selling, promoting, marketing, branding, production on this podcast. You can't do everything. There's a few things I like to think I'm actually pretty if not very good at. But there's many things I am both bad at and just don't like doing.




Warwick Fairfax:

And there are always reasons, but I think none of us have all the gifts and all the experiences to do everything. We just don't. So a smart man or woman realizes their own limitations and their own phobias, we all have them, and say, "Okay, some of these things, I'm going to overcome. Some, I may not overcome." You're not going to overcome lack of gifting in certain areas. If you're a good writer, and, "Hey, I want to be a genius at math," probably you won't be. Or there's a bunch of engineers, mathematically minded people say, "I love numbers. This whole word thing, I don't get it." That's being human. So surround yourself, yes, with people that will encourage and tell you truth, but surround yourself with the people with different skills and abilities than you have. And that's what I've tried to do in crucible leadership. And certainly as you're trying to chart your second act, you got to have a team to be able to help you get there.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And that's one of the reasons why there's Captain America and Spider-Man here on the desk as we're having this conversation because let's circle back to Tony Stark and Ironman. One of the things that helps him find a life of significance and helps him truly find his calling and helps him truly save... I mean, he couldn't have saved earth from the things that he saved earth from without the Avengers, right? These guys are Avengers. He knows that. His team of fellow travelers goes from Ho Yinsen, who's the first one, Pepper Pots, who's always been there for him. But he eventually builds the Avengers, and that is what ends up stopping Thanos, the intergalactic villain in the final Avengers movie that we talked about was so moving that people posted YouTube clips of it all over the place of the reactions of the crowd. That's the ultimate fellow travelers from this series of Lights, Camera, Crucibles, is the Avengers, right?




Gary Schneeberger:

Without all of them together, they would not have accomplished anything that they've accomplished. So that's a great place, I think, to land the plane on this one. Now the third point of the five that we're going to talk about here on transforming yourself into a crucible busting hero is to live life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And the example, we're going to go from Ironman to Spider-Man. Right here, Spider-Man, Peter Parker's a brainy high school kid, and he's picked on and labeled as nerdy by his classmates. But when he's bitten by a radioactive spider during a field trip, he develops the proportional powers of an arachnid. The new abilities come with new crucibles for Peter though. His "me first" attitude in the beginning, he's focused on trying to get money, to earn money with his strength to buy a car to impress the girl he secretly loves.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that obsession, even short-lived obsession, to make money to focus on his own advancement, to focus on himself, use his powers for himself, not for a greater good, ends up leading to his beloved Uncle Ben, who raised him like a son after Peter's parents died, it leads to Uncle Ben being murdered. And it's at that point in the story of Peter Parker and Spider-Man, right, Warwick, that he really begins to learn the lessons, as we say all the time, if you learn the lessons of your crucible, you can move beyond it. That's when that starts for Peter.




Warwick Fairfax:

It really does. Sometimes those we love will say worse to us that we don't really get at the time, but we come to understand later. And that's what happens with Peter Parker. He's in a car with his Uncle Ben, and his Uncle Ben says, "With great power comes great responsibility." And Peter doesn't process at the time as the time he's into, "Hey, I have these powers now, and I'm going to make money, wrestle. It's all about me. And I'm going to get enough money to get a car," to impress the girl he has a crush on, Mary Jane. And he's just not thinking of it.




Warwick Fairfax:

And then partly because there's somebody, some bad guy, that he could have helped stop, and it's like, "Hey, it's not my problem." And that bad guy ends up killing his beloved Uncle Ben. So then those words I'm sure haunt him, "With great power comes great responsibility." Because he didn't heed that warning, it leads to his beloved Uncle Ben getting killed by this bad guy. So it really just transforms his perspective, and he uses his powers for others, to help Mary Jane at one point, which he's being captured by the Green Goblin and takes on the Green Goblin as he seeks to kind of wreak havoc on the city of New York. So those words do transform his life.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. I mean, he becomes a hero because of the crucible that he gets through, because of the crucible and the lessons he learns from it. And that's what we talk about all the time here on the show is if you learn the lessons of your crucible, and you apply them moving forward, you can create a new vision for your life, and that new vision leads to a life of significance. And no one would say at the end of Spider-Man, the first movie with Tobey McGuire, there had been a bunch of them, all of them end up with this young kid picked on, when a loved one dies, he learns from this terrible experience a lesson that he then dedicates his life to serving others, to living on purpose, focusing on serving others. In fact, within that first Spider-Man movie, he's in love with Mary Jane, and Mary Jane says she's in love with him. And the stage is set for them to have a life together. And Peter doesn't do it. Why doesn't Peter do it?




Warwick Fairfax:

Peter has taken to heart the advice from Uncle Ben to such degree that his whole life is about living a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So his fear is if he continues a relationship with Mary Jane, and she says at the end of that movie that she loves him, it's very clear that Peter Parker loves her, but he says, "Look, I just want to be friends." And basically the inner monologue that goes on is his concern that everybody he loves, somehow bad things happen to them.




Warwick Fairfax:

Whether it's Aunt May, who's terrorized by Green Goblin at one point, or Uncle Ben, he's thinking, "If I have a relationship with Mary Jane, something bad's going to happen." So in this movie, he sacrifices his happiness for what he perceives as the greater good. I mean, that to me is the ultimate live a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Nothing, not even the love of his life, will get in the way of serving others. He puts his whole happiness, his whole sense of self on the back burner. It's all about serving others. It's one of the most selfless scenes you'll see in any superhero movie. It's just astounding.




Gary Schneeberger:

And again, I hadn't thought about it until you just said that because we've said the phrase, "Live a life on purpose dedicated to serving others," maybe a thousand times, up to a thousand times on this show and in your speaking appearances and those kinds of things. But we could edit it, maybe add a phrase in front of it, "Live a life on purpose dedicated not to serving yourself only, but serving others." That's where Peter lands. Serving himself would be, "I get to be with this girl I love, but she'd be in danger. And my job is to protect people." That's my calling. That's my purpose. And that's what he's walking out and what he's living. That is our R-E-E-L life example of what it means to live life on purpose dedicated to serving others.




Gary Schneeberger:

We also had in a previous series that we did, Warwick, a guest that... It's funny. When we have team meetings from your team of fellow travelers and crucible leadership, her name comes up all the time. She really has made an impact. And that is Nancy Volpe Beringer, who we featured in our series, Second Act Significance. And Nancy was in her late 50s when she let herself not just dream of a career in fashion design, but to pursue it.




Gary Schneeberger:

She explains that the success and security she'd built professionally over several decades didn't fully scratch the creative itch she felt as a young girl who loved to sew. She had a "is this all there is" moment while she's living this life that would've led to retirement, and everything would've been great. And she was close to retirement. She's in her 50s, her late 50s. But that's when she pursued her passion with a vigor. She earned a master's degree and ended up on season 18 of TV's Project Runway. And even that, being on Project Runway, was not the true life of significance. That happened in the show, it wasn't the show, what happened to her that truly brought her the purpose of serving others.




Warwick Fairfax:

Project Runway was sort of interesting. I mean, just before we get to that, I just love the whole story of Nancy Volpe Beringer. As we'll get into with the Discover Your Second Act webinar that's coming up, she's a remarkable person because she had the successful career in the New Jersey Teachers' Organization. And she had the courage to say, "I'm doing great. I'm getting paid well. But what would I do if I was my younger self?" And it's like, "I'd go into fashion." I mean, to do that in your late 50s is remarkable. There aren't too many folks in their late 50s in fashion design school. That takes courage, but she-




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, and she said she was the only one there.




Warwick Fairfax:

Right. Yeah, she did it. And so at a second attempt, she gets on Project Runway. And one of the things they do is sort of at random. They give you these things, challenges. Well, the challenge she was given was to create fashion for those who had disabilities. So it could be paraplegic, quadriplegics, people that lost limbs. Now her fellow competitors, they were breathing a sigh of relief, dodged a bullet, "Phew, I'm glad I didn't get that one," because that would be tough.




Warwick Fairfax:

But it just shows Nancy Volpe Beringer's character. She was like, "Yay. This is awesome. I'm so glad I got that." And so yes, she designs high fashion couture for a lot of different folks, but she has a special design passion to design fashion for those who were disabled and haven't historically had access to fashion. So that just shows her sense of passion to serve others. It's not just about her own fame and fortune, "Oh, look at me. I'm a top fashion designer." She's focused on helping others. And just that moment at Project Runway when she was filled with elation and glee and her competitors were filled with relief that they didn't get that one, tells you everything you need to know about why Nancy Volpe Beringer is a very special person.




Gary Schneeberger:

And her life is a great example of the mile markers, if you will, of what the path to a life of significance can look like because she started out, "Is this all there is?" She's got a job, paying the bills. She's successful. She could retire. But there was an itch that was not getting scratched. And then she goes through that process. She takes a shot, learns some lessons from what doesn't make her feel alive, come alive. She applies those lessons. She casts a vision. She pursues it. It's not easy. She fights through it. And then in the end, she is, right, living a life of significance. She's gone from, "Is this all there is," to, "Wow, this is all I want." That is a remarkable arc. And that's the thing that we are trying, that you are trying to encourage people through the work of Crucible Leadership, through what we're doing on this podcast, and what we're going to be doing in this E-course, right? That's the goal that you have for people, from, "Is this all there is," to, "This is all I want." That seems fair.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's incredibly well said, Gary. I mean, from, "Is this all there is," to, "This is all I want." This is all I want means I'm serving a higher purpose. I'm serving others, and it's filling me with so much joy. I have more joy and fulfillment than I could ever possibly imagine. We all want joy and fulfillment. That comes from a higher purpose. That comes from serving others. Certainly true for Nancy Volpe Beringer, and it's pretty much, I would say, true for every hero we've covered in this series. It's not about them. It's about serving some greater goal, some greater good. And that's why we love these heroes and heroic figures so much.




Gary Schneeberger:

But here's the rub. That journey isn't always a straight line, right? It's not always a straight line. It was not always a straight line for the heroes that we talked about. And that's point four in our five ways to transform into a crucible busting hero. Point four is when the road gets crooked a little bit, and that is, do not lose sight of your mission or the values that undergird that mission. And the example of that that we want to talk about here is in The Natural, Roy Hobbs, right, the other worldly, talented baseball player, whose aspirations to be the best who ever played this game are sidetracked, frankly, when he's shot as a teenager by a woman he didn't recognize as a threat.




Gary Schneeberger:

He beats the odds, finds his way back to the majors many years later to become the era's top player, even as an unscrupulous owner and this wily shady gambler try to pull him down. He gets there. It wasn't a straight line to get there, but after he is there, it also gets to become a little crooked line. Roy has... I don't know if you'd call it, he falls back into some bad habits. His blind spots still show up. There's something that happens to Roy Hobbs even after he's achieved success on the baseball field, when he finally got there, that keeps him for a while from his life of significance, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean, in some sense, Roy Hobbs is a troubled soul. There's a phrase the ancient Greeks used, "Who the guards would first curse, they first raise up." Sometimes when you're a young baseball player, in this case, and he believes he could be the best there ever was. And that's no idle boast. His ability to pitch and bat was as good, maybe better than anybody. He's not a Steve Rogers.




Gary Schneeberger:

He struck out the Babe Ruth character, right.




Warwick Fairfax:

Right. Exactly.




Gary Schneeberger:

He struck out the Whammer. Yeah.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. Steve Rogers doesn't grow up thinking, "I could be the best there ever was. Me? No. I'm short and slight of build." He's not thinking that, but Roy Hobbs is. And so then when he gets kind of seduced by this dark angel, if you will, in Harriet Bird who shoots him in a hotel room, and that wound to the stomach basically torpedoes his career for years. And he comes back a lot older. And yet that lesson of, be careful who you associate with, he doesn't really quite learn that. And along comes these gambler's maul, Memo Paris. And she just, again, seduces him. And when he's with her, his batting average goes through the floor. She's just like a one person wrecking ball to his baseball game. Talk about back to Greek hero, Achilles, his Achilles' heel, if you will.




Warwick Fairfax:

But what I love about The Natural, there is a like in Star Wars, if you will. There's a battle between good and evil, between the dark angel and an angel of light. And the girl he knew way back when when he grew up in the corn fields was Iris. Variety of reasons, they get to meet up. And in one game where he is in his slump, she stands up, and she has this beautiful white dress, and it's illuminated by the light. And she does look angelic. She inspires him to be better. There's a great scene when he's in hospital after being poisoned by some bad guys. And he says to her, "Gosh," to Iris, "I could have been the best there ever was. I mean, I could have walked down the street of my town, and like, 'There goes Roy Hobbs, the best there ever was.'"




Warwick Fairfax:

And she says, "Well, and then what?" Basically, is this all there is, in not so many words. And she says, "Roy, you are so good now. Look how you inspire young people, young boys. You're an inspiration." So she helps him realize there's more to life than just being a great baseball player, there's being a great person, being an inspiration to future generations of athletes, of baseball players. And so eventually good does win out, as it should in all good movies. And the angel of light overpowers the dark angel. It's a great movie, but to your point, life is not often smooth. And he is very gifted, but he has challenges with his course. He gets sidetracked in part by his own inner demons and his own mistakes.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And I love what you just said about the way that Iris reacts to him wanting to be the best there ever was in this game. And one of the things we did in the episode we talked about The Natural is I have a prop card that had his statistics on the back that weren't shared in the movie. And he was like, his home runs per at bat were better than Babe Ruth. He had the enormous success. But you use that phrase, she was telling him basically, "Is this all there is?" Is success all there is, right? And that can be true, too.




Gary Schneeberger:

Sometimes that itch that says, "Is this all there is," isn't born out of being in a place where you can't pay the bills or in a place where you have financial struggles. Sometimes that place, "is this all there is", is born of, you got a lot of money, Tony Stark, you've got a lot of accolades, Roy Hobbs. You can get to that place, and it can look different for different people. And one of the people who we talk to on the podcast who exemplifies some of this point, this idea of keeping your eyes on your mission was Hank McLarty, who was a guest we had... Gracious. I think when I looked this up, Warwick, it was almost two years ago when we talked to Hank, it's hard to believe. He was in his own words, an intense goal setter from the third grade. He achieved most of what he set his mind to like Roy Hobbs, very much like Roy Hobbs. He got a scholarship to Auburn, Hank McLarty did. He built a financial services career at prestigious firms, got recognition and wealth as one of the youngest and best in his industry. Then something happened that got him sidetracked, got him off his mission. What was that?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's very similar to Roy Hobbs. He was drinking the Hank Kool-Aid as he puts it. He was hitting the numbers out of the park as a financial advisor. He was doing fantastic. Somebody said to him, "Hey, why don't you jump ship, come to my firm. I'll make you a partner." He threw all sorts of stuff at him that he couldn't resist. Well, no sooner than he joined the firm I think the company went under before he almost joined it.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. Before he could start.




Warwick Fairfax:

He burned all his bridges at the previous firm. I'm leaving. He was at a point where he threw everything he had into this new firm. It went bust. He was humiliated. At one point, he was living in a hotel for I think a couple years with his two boys just requiring the free breakfast at the hotel to get by. He was humiliated. This successful guy that was young, the golden boy, he'd lost his cape. It was tarnished. There was an episode of the Spider--man franchise when he gets covered in some black goo and he becomes not the Spiderman we know and love. There was a bit of a war for his soul.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, that was a bit like Hank McLarty here. He got some black stuff on him and he was not the person he wanted to be, but so he really had to dig down deep and say what kind of person did he want to be for his boys, for his family? He did recount his vision from success to significance.




Warwick Fairfax:

The company he has now, Gratus Capital. Yes, absolutely it's focused on helping its advisor, its clients and this financial advisory firm be successful, but he has got these principles of gratitude and humility. He no longer sees himself as the golden boy almost like Wayne Gretzky, the great one. He doesn't really view himself that way anymore. He has this humility to focus on others, listen to his team, and he really wants it to be a place where his team loves to work. It's not just about him. He wants to serve clients, but he wants to serve his fellow coworkers. He was really transformed by that crucible, if you will, to focus more on others and really dig deep down to what values do I really believe. He's a great, great example of digging down deep and focusing on your values.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. That is the key part I want to emphasize for the listener here is that you call it all the time, Warwick, mission drift. I hear you say it all the time when we talk to beware of mission drift, of losing sight of your north star as you're traveling. Roy Hobbs did it, Hank McLarty did it. But good news you can find your way back. Hank's kids helped him do that, in The Natural Iris helped Roy Hobbs do that. Again the importance of fellow travelers, the importance of those people who will support, encourage goad, exhort, sometimes correct you. That is critical to continuing to walk on this road to a life of significance, especially when there are detours to it.




Gary Schneeberger:

All right we're to point five in the five ways to transform into a crucible busting hero. This is my favorite one I think probably because I'm a little goofy myself and the guy that we're going to talk about here in this point is keep your sense of humor. It's important through all of this to keep your sense of humor. We've all heard the phrase, laughter is the best medicine. This is true even and especially when the sickness we're fighting is moving beyond a crucible. In Die Hard John McClane is a cop who finds himself doing battle all by himself with a group of terrorists that seize the office building where his wife Holly works. Even as life threatening crucibles pile up, and we talked about this in the episode. I mean, it's like a tennis machine firing balls at John McClane all the time, crucible, crucible, crucible, crucible, even as those things piled up, he never takes himself too seriously does he?




Warwick Fairfax:

No, he doesn't. It's kind of funny. It's a wonderful movie. He is in this crazy situation that he's going out to Los Angeles, he's kind of separated it would seem like from his wife, Holly. He's a New York cop. He's going out to LA and he's just going for Christmas. He's going to this Christmas party at Nakatomi Plaza in LA. He's not thinking he's going to be fighting bad guys. He's not thinking as cops say, I'm on the job. He's like, no, and all these things keep happening. He is like, seriously?




Warwick Fairfax:

In one scene, he is navigating himself with a Zippo lighter in these air ducts. He kind of quips thinking of Holly, his wife, as she says to him, come out to the coast, we'll get together, we'll have a few laughs and he's sort of laughing and grimacing. He's got no shoes on, he's getting shot at, and he is sweating, and it's like in this claustrophobic air vent. Later on he takes on Hans, this terrorist guy with his gang of bad guys who were holding hostages. He takes one of the bad guys out, plops him, I think on a chair, goes down an elevator. When the elevator opens on the shirt, it says, now I have a machine gun, ho, ho, ho. It's like, he tried to keep a sense of humor, which I think the reason we're raising this is when everything is falling apart around you, sometimes laughing helps clear your head and keeps your focus.




Warwick Fairfax:

If John McClane doesn't keep its focus, people are going to die. The terrorists could well take out the innocent hostages. So by laughing, it just cleans his head and helps him keep going on. He certainly needs a lot of perseverance, but there are some incredibly funny lines, but it's humor for a purpose.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. We don't laugh in those situations, going through crucibles, we don't laugh because what we're going through is funny, but because it helps stabilize our spirits to meet the challenges emotional and otherwise that we'll encounter on our path to significance. We're all going to be faced with those moments. Things that can be upsetting, tragic, again on that path even when the path doesn't go completely crooked in some cases, on that path you can have bad days. On that path you can have bad outcomes. Keeping as light an attitude as you can keep through it helps you get through it.




Gary Schneeberger:

I'm going to tell an example from my own life, just from last year. I've always tried to live by that principle, right? Am I always Mr. Chuckles? No. Can I get depressed? You bet. Do I have a temper sometimes? If anybody else in the house here were home right now, I would bring them out to testify yes I can. They would testify to that. But I also endeavor to find humor to take the edge off of painful, frustrating, challenging situations and circumstances. Again, not because they're funny but because it lets the air out of the tension that builds out of the pain that builds sometimes.




Gary Schneeberger:

The example I'm going to use my dad died last year at age 93 and I delivered his eulogy. I titled it 93 things I want you to know about my dad. It is brimming with loving recollections of the things he taught me and my siblings and the love and security he provided us with. I also found some humor in going through some things. Among those 93 points I'll just give a couple. The second one was I started out funny. The second one was he cheated at solitaire, wait, I'm a public relations professional let me frame that properly. He played solitaire by alternate rules. That was one.




Gary Schneeberger:

One was that he himself had a sly and relentless sense of humor. When my sister Dale was battling cancer a decade or so ago; Dean, my brother got lost driving to the hospital in Milwaukee. He did not want to hear any jokes about it he made clear when he got there, but dad could not resist. When the three of us got on the elevator to go get some food, very somber my dad's daughter, my brother and I's sister is battling cancer. Quiet moment. My dad says very softly and simply when we got on the elevator, he asks Dean, "Need some help finding which button to push?" Dean had gotten lost. He was mad. Nobody make fun of me that I got lost. Dad couldn't help break the tension and the pain and the worry we all had with a joke. Just like I couldn't help telling that story when I was eulogizing my father in the midst of all the things that he did that were wonderful.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's an example of what I was going through wasn't funny. What we were going through on that elevator wasn't funny, but you keep your sense of humor so you can keep your sanity if you will. You can keep your focus if you will. Warwick I know you have through your own crucible, I've heard you do the same when you've talked about that, for sure.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, growing up in a large family media business, something about money attracts betrayal as a light attracts, I don't know, moths or something. There was a time back in my takeover days as listeners would know, my 2.25 billion dollar takeover in 1987, there were times in which I almost felt like I had a sign on my back that said, betray me. It's like in middle school. Advisors, different folks would let me down, I've had family members, friends, and I would just almost grimace and smile, say to myself, "Hey X person, I just forgave you for the last thing you did. Can you just give me a break? I can't catch up. I mean, come on really? I mean, can you just dole out the betrayal or the terrible things one at a time, give me a few weeks, few months. Don't do it more than one at a time. Just come on. I mean give me a break."




Warwick Fairfax:

It's just the sense of, I must have had a note pinned to my back saying betray me and can you just give me a moment? I'm trying to catch up. I would use that to sort of grimace and grin to myself like seriously, come on. By kind of like, I wouldn't say making light of it, but maybe having a wry smile, or smirk about it. Frankly, a little bit like John McClane, he has plenty of wry smiles and smirks as he's going through things. So maybe channeling, I'm not John McClane, but channeling a little bit of John McClane, that wry smile as I was going through my own crucibles.




Gary Schneeberger:

I'm going to let you sort of have the last word, but I have to tell a story now about my own sign hung on my back when I was in gosh, junior high school. I was a bit of a heavy kid in junior high school. It is funny. I'm laughing about it right now because it's creative and funny. Somebody hung a sign on my back that said kick me. The old kick me sign. But this was a creative kid. It said, kick me I'm fat and won't feel it.




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh no.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, was it terrible? Yes. But was it creative and could I find something in that kept me from, I don't know if it kept me from crying, but kept me from just giving up, putting my head under the covers and pulling them up. I found something. I met what was brought to me with a spirit of, I could do this all day. I can get through this. Failure is not an option as we go forward.




Gary Schneeberger:

Warwick we've talked about a lot here. We've talked about reel life from our series Lights, Camera, Crucibles, and how you can become a crucible busting hero. We've talked from real life. Some of the guests we've had on the podcast, some of our own stories. I love how you end most of our episodes with guests when you say what's a message of hope based on the conversation we've just had for listeners. I'll ask you that question. What's your message of hope that you have for listeners as we wrap up this series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles?




Warwick Fairfax:

You know, I think it's easy as you look at superheroes and heroic figures to think I'm not Spider-Man, I'm not Roy Hobbs. I'm not Robin Longstride and Robin Hood who in the movie helps take on Prince John, defeat the French. I'm not any of these people. I'm just a regular guy, regular woman. How can I relate to this? What does it all mean for me? I think it's really through these different folks, it's not so much the greatness of their superpowers or their great deeds. It's the greatness of their character. It's their humility. It's learning to overcome your mistakes or Roy Hobbs learning to overcome your inner demons. If you're Tony Stark, learning it's not all about you, it's about others. It's Peter Parker realizing it's not about me, it's about serving a wider purpose with humanity. It's Steve Rogers I can do this all day and it's not about me, it's defending the defenseless against bullies.




Warwick Fairfax:

I think all of us can learn these character lessons about perseverance and humility and purpose and serving others and values and not letting one mistake define us, of failure is not trying. We all fail, you just get up and try again. All of us, whether it's at home with our families, our businesses and whether we lead, as we often say from the boardroom to the living room; wherever we are, we can all learn character lessons from these heroic figures. They're very applicable. It's easy to think, oh, that's not me, but take your eye a little bit off the superpowers and look at the heroic examples of character that each of these folks showed that we've been discussing. We can all learn how to be a bit more heroic in our character and how we live our lives.




Gary Schneeberger:

That is the perfect ending where I normally would say the plane's on the ground. The captain's put the plane on the ground, but because we're talking about superheroes, I'm going to say Nick Fury has ordered the Avengers Quinjet to land and it has indeed landed. Like we like to do when we do these kind of wrap up episodes and certainly dialogue episodes with just me and you Warwick. I want to leave listeners with a few reflection questions to look at, to ponder as they take your very excellent words that you just wrapped up with and they move forward.




Gary Schneeberger:

Our hope here is that the episode doesn't end when I say a life of significance in a few minutes, the episode will continue on as you ponder these questions and ponder some of the points that we've raised here today. Reflection question number one is how would you rate your perseverance skills? What can you do to be even better at meeting challenges with an "I could do this all day" attitude? That's one. Second point of reflection to ponder. How do you deal with distractions that threaten to pull you away from pursuing your vision? When the Roy Hobbs distractions come up, the Hank McLarty distractions come up, how do you deal with those things? Then maybe how can you deal with them better if you don't deal with them so well? Then the third point, in what ways can you bring a humorous perspective to your crucible? Remember, critical - it's not about making light of what you're going through, but lightening the load of its impact on you.




Gary Schneeberger:

This is not a question of reflection, but I am going to pose this question to you listener before we sign off, and that is go back to the beginning of this episode. You heard that clip play from the DC films superhero movies about how the world needs heroes. Do you remember the last line in there? The very last line in that when all these heroes are shown doing their thing, talking about why they're heroes and how they do it; the last line was, are you in? So ask yourself that question, all the things that we've talked about here about pursuing a life of significance, overcoming your crucible and pursuing a life of significance. Are you in?




Gary Schneeberger:

If you're in stay tuned in the weeks to come we'll have more to say about our e-course, which will help you get in, which will help you navigate your way to finding, to discovering your second act significance. Until the next time we are together listeners, thank you for spending, not just this time with us today, but all now nine episodes hopefully you've spent. If you haven't spent all nine episodes of Lights, Camera, Crucibles with us, guess what, good news. They're all at crucibleleadership.com. You can go find them there. We will be back soon. Until that happens, please remember that we understand that your crucibles are difficult. We understand that they can knock the wind out of your sails and change the trajectory of your life.




Gary Schneeberger:

We also understand, we also know from our own experiences and from the experiences of the guests we talked to on this podcast and the heroes that we've discussed on this podcast, that you can get your life back on a course dedicated to serving others, leading toward something that allows you to get rid of that feeling of "is this all there is?" There is hope to move beyond your crucible, and that is casting a vision that you're truly passionate about and recognizing that your crucible is not the end of your story. In fact, it can be the beginning of your story as it was for every hero we talked about because when you learn the lessons of that crucible or those crucibles, like John McClane, the destination that they can lead you to is the destination they led all of our heroes to and that is a life of significance.

Our summer series LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure continues with HOOSIERS … and it’s the perfect film to end the series before next week’s wrap-up episode. Why? Because at its core the message of the film is what overcoming our crucibles is really all about: redemption.

It’s the story of Coach Norman Dale, who leads his team to an unlikely Indiana high school basketball championship in the 1950s. It’s unlikely because the Hickory Huskers are a small team from a tiny school. Coach Dale has to start from scratch by instilling in the boys the confidence and discipline and what he believes is the right way to play the game. Along the way, he extends grace and offers redemption to the father of one of the boys whose struggles with alcohol had made him a town pariah. And he’s earned redemption himself thanks to the second chances he was extended by friends and strangers – opportunities he met with humility, courage and character.

Highlights

A movie about redemption (4:03)
Norman Dale’s second chance (7:35)
The new coach’s awkward meeting with the small town’s fathers (11:37)
Warwick’s experience with others’ visions crowding out his own (15:10)
Coach Dale’s on-court crucible (18:33)
The importance of living your values and beliefs (20:40)
When those you lead defy you (27:32)
The redemption of Shooter (31:09)
The town’s failed attempt to remove Coach Dale (35:59)
Jimmy Chitwood saves Coach Dale’s job … and redeems the team (41:11)
Coach Dale’s inspirational speech (48:36)
Staying true to your values, even if it means losing something (50:11)
The redemption of the worst player on the team … leads to playoff victory 52:39)
All the redemption arcs come to full fruition (55:51)
The Fairfax family’s connection to Indiana basketball (1:06:05)
Key takeaways (1:14:52)
A question for reflection (1:19:58)

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Norman Dale:

We're way past big speech time. I want to thank you for the last few months. It's been very special for me. Anybody have anything they want to say?




Player 1:

Yeah. Let's win this one for all the small schools who never had a chance to get here.




Norman Dale:

Okay.




Player 2:

I want to win for my dad.




Player 3:

Let's win for coach. You got us here. Thank you.




Pastor:

With God of heaven, it is all one to deliver with a great multitude or a small company. For the victory of battle standeth not in the multitude of hosts, but strength cometh from heaven. And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it and struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground.




Player 1:

Amen.




Pastor:

Amen.




Norman Dale:

I love you guys.




Gary Schneeberger:

We wrap up our summer series Lights, Camera, Crucibles, what our favorite movie heroes can teach us about overcoming setbacks and failure with Hoosiers. And it's the perfect film to end on. Why? Because at its core is the condition that colors what overcoming our crucibles is really all about, redemption. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show.




Gary Schneeberger:

That clip you just heard is Coach Norman Dale, played by Gene Hackman, addressing his high school basketball team before their Indiana State Championship Game in the 1950s. It's a small team from a tiny school, hence the David and Goliath reference from the team chaplain. And Coach Dale has done more than come to love his players by the time the team gets to this moment. He has instilled in them confidence and discipline, and what he believes is the right way to play the game. Along the way, he extends grace and offers redemption to one of the boy's fathers, whose struggles with alcohol had made him a town pariah. And he's earned redemption himself thanks to the second chances he was extended by friends and strangers. Opportunities he met with humility, courage, and character.




Warwick Fairfax:

There's a lot of great movies that we've seen, like The Natural, obviously, there's a bit of redemptive quality. But I guess for me having had my own challenges, as listeners know, $2.25 billion take over of a family business in Australia in media not working out. I love stories where your life isn't over, and there's a way back either from your own mistakes, or when things happen to you. And I think that's why, for so many people, the movie that we're going to talk about is so beloved because there is this theme of redemption, of second chance, of coming back from challenges. So that's probably one of the reasons it's so many people love this movie.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And I think more than any other movie that we've covered in this series, Hoosiers truly is a movie about redemption. And that's a key concept that undergirds what we do at Crucible Leadership and here in Beyond the Crucible. And that is when we say your worst day doesn't define you, when we talk about bouncing back from setback and failure by learning the lessons of your trials and applying them, what we're really talking about at the most basic level is the word that Warwick used is redemption. That's what we're talking about.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's interesting. I love to look up the definitions of words in Noah Webster's first dictionary from 1828. And this is how he defined redemption in his first dictionary in 1828. He defines it as this, "Deliverance from bondage, distress, or from liability to any evil or forfeiture either by money, labor, or other means."




Gary Schneeberger:

And that, in this movie, is the absolute story of the protagonist Norman Dale. That's his story arc. But it's not just his story arc. It's the story arc of a bunch of other folks in the movie that we'll talk about. But I was intrigued Warwick, and we haven't talked about this in advance. This is the moment right here if this were a game show, this is when someone would come out with a big sign that says, "I'm surprising Warwick" because we didn't talk about this in advance as we prepped. Noah Webster's definition, the first word he uses as he talks about redemption, is deliverance from bondage, distress or from liability. Deliverance is the first word he used. And for me, that was an interesting word in the definition. Do you remember why that's so interesting in the context of Crucible Leadership and you?




Warwick Fairfax:

Maybe. Yeah. I mean, I often would think that what I went through was like prison, and I'm glad I'm out of it. But there was a time in, I guess folks will see this very soon, we did a speaking video. Shot it in Denver. And we prep and all, but in terms of the actual footage, I know roughly what I'm going to say, but that was the very first time that I said when the company went under, while it was a tragedy in so many ways for me and many others and in the company, there was a sense for me personally, deliverance. I might have even said deliverance from bondage. And we shot this a number of months ago. First time ever used that word. So sometimes the path of redemption, there's a sense of deliverance from a path that was painful and wasn't helpful. So yeah, that reminds me of that scene in my own little video.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it reminded me too. I mean, I was like, oh my gosh, that was the word. And I still remember when you said it in this video that has not yet gone public, but will soon. When you said that it was the first time you'd ever said it. And you've been talking about your story, you wrote about your story, and you'd never used that. And I think what that says to us is is as we continue to walk out our journey in our life of significance, or toward our life of significance, things can shift and our perspective can change about what we have learned from the crucibles we've been through. So that was indeed your story, as you said, in the videos, as you've said, many times is one of redemption.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's certainly the story of the protagonist of this film, Norman Dale. The first time we meet him, he arrives in Hickory, Indiana in 1951 to meet his old friend Cletus, who's the principal of Hickory High School. Now Hickory, we see as he's driving in his car, is clearly a farming town, not a big town. One of the scenes he sees as he's driving in are a couple of boys shooting baskets on what looks like a makeshift backboard and rim affixed to a barn. This is not a big city. This is a small town.




Gary Schneeberger:

And Norman Dale arrives there to see his old friend Cletus. And it's been 20 years since they've actually talked to each other. And we learn in their conversation, which is the typical kind of conversation old friends have, that Dale has been hired as a new basketball coach of the Hickory Huskers, the basketball team, and also a history teacher at the school. We get the sense very clearly that Norman Dale has been through a crucible, but we don't know what it is yet. Because Cletus tells him, as he welcomes him, "Slate's clean here. We've got a job to do." So there's some slate that was not clean before. And now it's clear for Cletus as Norman Dale arrives in Hickory.




Gary Schneeberger:

And Norman Dale responds, "It's got to work out this time or that's it for good," for him. So he recognizes, he says, again, we don't know what it is, but we know that something has happened in Norman Dale's life that changed the trajectory of it, as we say, here at Beyond the Crucible. And this is a key truth, I think, of what it is required of moving beyond a crucible, which is also expressed as being redeemed from errors or traumas of your past. And we don't yet know, as I said, what Norman Dale has been through.




Gary Schneeberger:

But it is a navigable road if others believe the best about you and give you a second chance. That's the takeaway from Norman Dale meeting up with his friend Cletus. He's got a second chance. We don't know what the first chance was. We don't know what happened. But that's a pretty important point when he and Cletus are meeting and Cletus is like, "Yep. Slate's clean." That will prove very important, very critical to the journey that Norman Dale goes on, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. I mean, redemption is the core theme of this movie, as you said before, not just for Coach Norman Dale, but for others that we will see here in a bit. But often, especially when maybe you've done something wrong, it's easy for folks to write you off and say, yep, not giving that guy, not giving that woman, not giving that person a second chance. Their history, it's almost like the Bible, leper, unclean, stay on the outskirts of town. You're not acceptable in polite society anymore. Just leave. Your life is over. Just disappear, hide in a hole somewhere.




Warwick Fairfax:

And it's easy to feel like the whole world sees you that way. And it's not often, unfortunately, that somebody will give you a second chance. Maybe you don't even believe in yourself anymore. But somebody maybe sees a glimmer of something worth saving, something worthwhile, and is willing to give you a second chance. And it's a powerful lesson in this movie. And it's sad that it's not as common as it should be.




Warwick Fairfax:

So as we talk about this, just think about that whole concept of do you want a second chance? Are you willing to give others a second chance? It's not easy to come back from the pit of despair if nobody's willing to give you a second chance. It's hard to get out of that pit alone. It's possible. It's vastly easier if somebody stretches their arm down and says, "Here, grab my arm. I'm going to help you out of the pit." It makes it so much easier.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's interesting. I hadn't thought about it until you just said that. I hadn't thought about this perspective, but we see in Hoosiers sort of a both/and in that regard with Coach Norman Dale in that there are definitely those who do support him like Cletus, and we'll meet others as we talk. But there's also a contingent of folks in that small town who aren't big Norman Dale fans, even if they don't know anything about him really. We find that out. He meets with a group of town fathers almost immediately coming into town. And when I say town fathers, I mean that in both senses of the word, the idea of that they're sort of the elders of the town, but they're also the fathers of the kids on the basketball team.




Gary Schneeberger:

And we discover in a meeting that he has with these town fathers that he used to coach at college, but he hasn't coached in 12 years. And the last time he did so was in Ithaca, New York. And because Indiana is so basketball crazed, the town fathers are suspicious of Norman Dale, and they're pushy to offer their advice. I mean, they are, try this, do that. I'm running practice now because the previous coach had passed away. That's why Norman Dale was hired. He's got nothing but advice coming at him, being shot at him out of cannons from all of these town fathers about how to run the team. And they really, in a very real sense, these men become Norman Dale's first crucible in Hickory. And it's a common one for all of us, the expectation and vision of others interfering with our pursuit of our own vision. That can be very difficult to resist and it can feel very traumatic to go through, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

It can. I mean, there's some wonderful vignettes. I think one of the dad's name is George, I believe, and he says, "Coach, here we play zone. We don't play man to man defense. So what are you? Are you zone or man to man?" As if there's a right answer. And Coach Dale is smart enough not to answer the question, because I'm guessing, you more about basketball than I do, probably it depends on the other team and a variety of circumstances. And this guy George says, "Hey Coach Dale, why don't you just basically sit down, relax first few weeks, and we'll ease into it." It's like they're not willing to hand over the keys of the kingdom. I mean, it's just kind of crazy.




Warwick Fairfax:

So it is all too common when you have a vision that you're trying to pursue, that others will say, "Well, that's great, Warwick, Gary, but kind of here's how I think you should do it. And actually your vision is not really meeting our expectations." And it's like, well, and that should matter why? It's my vision. It's your vision. It's like, why should other people get the right to interfere? Why do we have to fulfill others' expectations? Why do they get to tinker with it? But that's often real life is you don't have too many people saying, "Hey, any way I can help you or encourage you with your vision?" Rather than, "Let me tinker with it and get my wrench out and start unscrewing stuff." That's not helping. That's messing. It's a fine line between messing and helping. And we all know what it is. You know it when you see it. But it's all too common that people want to kind of mess things up.




Gary Schneeberger:

And in your own story, Warwick, in your own crucible that you've talked about on the show, and you unpack in detail in your book, Crucible Leadership, in your own story, it wasn't even so much I think that people tinkered with your vision, as you've said many times, your vision was sort on the shelf. It didn't matter. So you know a bit about what this feels like. This idea of the expectations and vision others have for you can interfere with your pursuit of your own vision, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's a good point. I mean, in my case, it wasn't even that my vision was on the shelf. It's like I didn't even know I had a vision. I didn't know that I had a right to have a vision. That wasn't right to have your own vision. That was morally wrong almost. I mean, that's an extreme case. But it's like my vision, which was not my vision, was to kind of inherit the mantle of my great-great grandfather, John Fairfax, who came out from England in the late 1830s, and founded this great newspaper, the Sydney Morning Herald, in 1841. Grew to be a $700 million multimedia company, newspapers, TV, radio, magazines. It was massive.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so my "vision" was to be the next generation to help perpetuate, improve, bring it back to the ideals of the founder, help restore my dad's vision who was thrown out by some other family members in '76. I launched this $2.25 billion take over in '87. But it was all to live to the expectations of my parents, to the ideals of the founder, John Fairfax, my great-great grandfather. None of it had to do with me and my vision or what I wanted to do or my beliefs. It was an extreme case of living somebody else's vision.




Warwick Fairfax:

And I honestly felt like to do what I wanted to do was "selfish" and almost morally wrong. I had no right to my own vision. That was wrong. I was here to serve somebody else's vision. It's a warped concept, but at the time it made perfect sense. I have no right to my own life, my own vision. I'm here to serve, not even my dad's vision, my great-great grandfather's vision. Like 100 plus years before. That's crazy really.




Gary Schneeberger:

And there are beats of that to Norman Dale's story. This idea of you don't have a right to your own vision. It's not your job, even though you're the coach, to decide what kind of defense we play. It's not your job to decide who... I mean, one thing that was interesting about this movie, it's funny, the high school sports cliche of parents of athletes on the team that wasn't explored at all in this is parents being mad that their son isn't playing. That was an interesting thing. I thought, okay, they avoided that one. That's good.




Gary Schneeberger:

But in a very real sense, although your crucibles are much different, and your visions and the wrench that was tossed in your pursuit of vision is different, it is true that Norman Dale had to struggle through this idea of his vision wasn't worthy. People thought they got to judge his vision of how he wanted to coach the team. And as we'll discover, he was having none of that.




Gary Schneeberger:

The second crucible that Norman Dale has while he is in Hickory follows quickly after. And that's that his team is undisciplined and they're small. Not just in size, they're all pretty short, but also in number of players. When he gets there, there's only seven people on the team, seven kids on the team. And two of them quit within minutes of the first practice. Now one of them comes back, that leaves him with six. But with basketball, having five players that doesn't give you a lot of rotational depth, as they say. And then even worse, from everybody in the town's perspective except his fellow teacher at the school, at Hickory High School, Myra Fleener, the best player in town, Jimmy Chitwood has refused to play since his previous coach, who he must have loved, passed away.




Gary Schneeberger:

So here's the great thing about Norman Dale as an example for us to look at and follow, as we navigate beyond our crucibles. Despite those setbacks, he remains committed to his task and his vision for achieving it. Teaching the boys on the team basketball's fundamentals and building them into a single minded force on the court. His philosophy, which he says to them, is this, five players on the court who function as a unit. Team, team, team.




Gary Schneeberger:

And what all this leads me to conclude, and this is an enormous point for listeners in their own walking beyond their crucible, is Norman Dale's a great role model for the perspective we need to move beyond a crucible. Believe in yourself and your vision for a life of significance, no matter who may disagree with or even oppose you. He's not arrogant, but he's confident. He is, as you've said many times, your phrase, off the charts passionate about the way he believes basketball should be played. And he does not allow his detractors to bump him off course. He truly is a good role model for us as individuals trying to move beyond crucibles, isn't he?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. One of the things I love about Norman Dale is he is confident in his own vision. And there's a difference between humility and confidence in your vision. It's not arrogance to believe in, not just his method of playing basketball, but he has a set of values. He has a set of beliefs about how kids should play basketball as a team. It's not about one person, about basketball's fundamentals, it's a set of beliefs about the way the game of basketball should be played the right way.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so the confidence in his vision is grounded in the confidence in his fundamental beliefs about what the game of basketball should teach young kids. That is beyond basketball, it's lessons for life. I think the great coaches, whether it's basketball, baseball, football, they have a belief and a set of values, especially in high school. I mean, how many high school kids are going to play college, let alone professionals? Like one in a million.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, coaches realize that, even if the parents often don't. Every parent thinks their kid's a future star, and it's often not the case. But the coaches realize it's not just about winning and losing, it's about molding young kids to be great men and women when they grow up. And so that's what Norman Dale believes. And so it's not arrogance, it's confidence in his vision and the beliefs and values that undergird that vision. That's what Norman Dale is really fighting for. He's really fighting for the character of these kids in a sense.




Gary Schneeberger:

And remove the word basketball from everything that you just said, take it out of a sports context. That's the kind of thing that leaders everywhere need to have, leaders in the home. My favorite phrase that we don't use nearly enough from the boardroom to the living room, right? Leaders all over the place. That is the perspective. That is a healthy perspective to have. Lean into your values, lean into your passions, and then march those out, despite the shots that might get fired at you from those who don't believe.




Gary Schneeberger:

The other thing that Norman Dale does, he doesn't go for the "easy fix" in turning around the fortunes of the team. He meets with Jimmy Chitwood, the kid everybody says they got to have on the team or they're not ever going to go anywhere. And because Jimmy's always shooting baskets around town. And Coach Dale tells him he's not going to try to woo him back. He's not going to be like everybody else, and say, "Oh, please, please, please come back." He actually tells Jimmy Chitwood this, "Your talent is yours to do with what you choose."




Gary Schneeberger:

That is a truth that applies to all of us when trying to chart a course to a life of significance. Our talents and passions are the building blocks of our vision, but we have to be the builder. We have to be the builder. No one else can force us to take on or take on the construction for us. It's our responsibility. And Norman Dale says to Jimmy Chitwood, "Your talent. Do with it what you will." That is a perspective we can encourage in others, but we have to adopt ourselves. We have to believe that's true about us too, don't we?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's a great point, Gary. I mean, this is really one of the high points, and there's quite a few of them, of the movie in which Coach Norman Dale lives his beliefs. He has fundamental beliefs in his own vision and values, but he is not going to foist and impose his vision on somebody else. And as we'll see, if Coach Norman Dale's vision was all about winning, Norman Dale's buddy Cletus who's the principal of the school and is an assistant coach, at least for part of the season on the team, Cletus says to Norman Dale, "Jimmy Chitwood is a standup basketball player." The best he's seen in 40 years. That's a long time. He has just got this special talent, this gift, that in this small high school, where early in the movie, they say there's like 64 boys in the high school. So they got to pick five, seven, however many they can get out of 64. It's a small school.




Warwick Fairfax:

So if he was all about winning, it's like, look, if I'm going to have this successful season, it all rides on Jimmy Chitwood. If he plays, we've got a shot. If he doesn't play, we're doomed. So therefore, however I've got to manipulate, coerce, force, bribe, whatever it takes, if I'm about winning, I mean, if Jimmy plays, maybe we win. If Jimmy doesn't play, we're doomed. And that's probably an accurate assessment. It's probably that simple.




Warwick Fairfax:

But what I love about this is that Coach Norman Dale is not going to impose his vision on Jimmy Chitwood. He realizes, and he says to him, not so many words, is you have the right to do with your life what you will. I'm not going to force you to play basketball. And he doesn't. That's an incredible stance to take. And it's really tantamount to Coach Norman Dale is really living his values and beliefs in an area where it potentially could cost him his job. It could cost him a successful season. It's not a small thing. It's a big statement. And it's a really incredible moment of shining a spotlight on a great moment of character for Coach Norman Dale.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's in particular because we know from the beginning of the movie, he's been through a crucible, and it was a big one. He hasn't coached in 12 years. He tells Cletus, "This is my last shot." Cletus tells him, "The slate's clean." Something bad happened before that forced him out of the game for a very long period of time. And yet he doesn't go for what looks like the easy fix. He won't put his need to succeed ahead of whatever Jimmy needs to do, wants to do, or pursue with his life, which shows a tremendous amount of character, which is interesting for the movie goer in watching the movie. Because if you don't know anything about this film, and listener, if you're one of the folks who's like what is Hoosiers about, I've never seen it, we haven't told you yet what his crucible was. And you might be thinking, geez, I mean, this guy sounds pretty good. How could he have gone through it? He knows a lot. How does he need to have the slate wiped clean. Hang tight. We'll get there.




Gary Schneeberger:

The perspective with Jimmy that Norman Dale shows begins to thaw his relationship with Myra who she says she looks after Jimmy, she's taken an interest in him. She's also a teacher at the school, and she doesn't want him forced to play like everybody else in town wants to do it. She wants something better for him than small town Hickory. She's not sure what that is, but she wants something better for him.




Gary Schneeberger:

And then Norman Dale moves on and continues to wrestle with executing his vision. And here's an example where the opposition comes from his players. After telling them, again, trying to teach them how to play basketball right, as you said, he tells them, "Pass the ball four times before shooting." Clear instruction before the game. But one defies the order as the team is losing, figuring passing the ball four times, you got to make up a lot of score. I'm just going to start chucking the ball at the basket. And he makes most of his shots. But Norman Dale takes him out of the game anyway. He then plays with only four boys on the court when another one fouls out.




Gary Schneeberger:

It's an important truth here for us all to remember. Our visions may face opposition, but we can't abandon them if we want to achieve them. It could have been easy, if Norman Dale was all about winning, not about building the proper way to play the game in these boys entrusted to his coaching, it could have been easy to put that guy who was draining all those shots back in the game, but he doesn't do it. He goes with only four players. That takes a lot of grit to pull that off, doesn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

It really does, Gary. I mean, it's another important point that really one of the keys to this movie is a vision needs to be supported, undergirded by our visions and by our beliefs and values. And it really is here is Coach Norman Dale is like winning or losing is not as important than playing the right way of passing four times. It's not about selfishness and shooting. It's about by moving the ball, you increase your chances of playing well. It's the right way to play. And he would rather lose with just four out of five on the court than maybe win the wrong way. Yes, he wants to win, but more important, he wants to win the right way and teach kids about teamwork and the right way to play the game of basketball.




Warwick Fairfax:

Time and time again, his vision is anchored. We all talk in Crucible Leadership all the time, your vision has to be anchored by your visions and beliefs. Well, in terms of the way to play basketball and how to teach young boys character, there's a rock solid anchor in that sense with Norman Dale's coaching philosophy. Really, it's so impressive. He doesn't compromise his beliefs about the right way to teach character to boys in high school and the right way to play basketball. He will not compromise that win or lose. Time and time again, he makes that statement. It's just so impressive. And it's just a great lesson for all of us is just don't lose sight of what your values and beliefs are. If you want to make sure your vision stays true and doesn't get sidetracked, the more it's anchored to your beliefs and values, the less chance it'll have of going in directions that you don't want it to go.




Gary Schneeberger:

And he sticks to it, Coach Dale does, sticks to it. Even as the withering criticism just keeps banging against him. He reveals at one point that his vision for the team, the way he wants to coach them, his vision is to, as he says, break them down and build them back up. To break stuff down, it causes the little mess, and some messes are happening there as he's trying to impart not just the wisdom of how to execute passes and shots and plays, but how to do it in a way that builds cohesion with the team. That's his big, big thing.




Gary Schneeberger:

The film's theme of redemption that we've talked about isn't just in the case of Coach Dale. It's also shown vividly in Shooter. Shooter's the name of the father of one of the boys on the team who lives in this ramshackle cabin in the woods. And he seems to spend most of his time inebriated. But he knows basketball. He shows up in a fun scene at Coach Dale's house with a scouting report on an upcoming opponent. And the way he talks about basketball. He's played by Dennis Hopper in the movie who's a very unique actor. And he plays it in this kind of hip way of talking in all this basketball lingo, but he has good intelligence. What he's saying, his intel proves pretty good to the coach so much so that Coach Dale asks Shooter to be an assistant coach, sit with him on the bench and help guide these boys.




Gary Schneeberger:

The offer comes with some strict requirements though. He's got to stop drinking. He's got to become more presentable. He's unshaven and kind of unclean a lot of times. He's got to clean up his act physically and also in his drinking in order to do it. Shooter's son who's on the team thinks it's a bad idea because he's embarrassed by his dad whom he dismisses as just a drunk. But Norman Dale asks the boy a penetrating question, "When's the last time someone gave him a chance?"




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's what so many of us need in the aftermath of a crucible, right? A chance. The opportunity to prove that our worst moments don't define this. We say that all the time on this show. Your worst moments don't define you. But we need the opportunity to prove that. If no one gives us that opportunity, we can't live out that truth. It's a doorway to redemption that Norman Dale offers Shooter, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

It really is. I mean, what's fascinating about the scene is it's the redeemed paying it forward and try to redeem others.




Gary Schneeberger:

Good point.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's a beautiful vision. Just as coach Norman Dale's old buddy Cletus gave Norman a second chance 12 years after he coached basketball in college in New York. It's so bad that he left basketball completely and was a petty officer in the Navy for 10 years. That's about as far away from basketball as you can get. That's how bad things were, and we'll find out later just why it was so bad.




Warwick Fairfax:

But some people, when they're given a second chance, they don't pay it forward. Says, well, that's good. I think I deserved a second chance. I'm glad they gave me a second chance. That's great. Other people, well, they'll have to earn it on their own. Not everybody thinks of paying it forward. But Coach Norman Dale does. He sees in Shooter somebody who knows a whole lot about all the other teams and the intel that could be redeemed. Even his own son, Shooter's son, doesn't think his dad can be redeemed. Pretty much everybody has given up on him. The townspeople, nobody thinks it makes sense having him on the sidelines. Everybody's given up.




Warwick Fairfax:

And obviously getting over an addiction is never easy. But I would imagine if somebody gives you a second chance, and somebody gives you a reason to keep on living a good way, to use your gifts and talents to help others, I think maybe it was a bumpy road back, but it gives you Shooter to a reason to come back from alcoholism. It's like, I've got my son, I've got the kids on the team, I can rehabilitate my life. But somebody doesn't give you a chance, again, it's like trying to get out of the pit all by yourself. It's possible, but it's so much harder.




Warwick Fairfax:

I have to believe the fact that Coach Norman Dale is willing to give Shooter a second chance, it won't be easy, but it gives him a better shot at beating his own demons and alcoholism. Just somebody willing to believe when nobody will. It's just remarkable because all this will do is make his life tougher. Yes, it might give him better intel. But if you did a cost benefit analysis, it's like, gee, maybe he can help me. What is the chances of him being sober reliably on the sideline? Probably not high if one wanted to be cynical. Is this going to tick off parents in the town? Absolutely. So if you look at a cost benefit scenario, the smart play would be not to bring him on as assistant coach. That's not a smart play. But again, it's not about winning and losing. It's about values and beliefs. And Coach Norman Dale believes it's the right thing to do to give Shooter a chance at redemption. It's a wonderful moment.




Gary Schneeberger:

And in that belief, he's kind of a party of one, or two if you probably count Myra in there. The townspeople don't like it. And that they add it to their list of problems with Coach Dale. They don't like the way he coaches. They don't like the fact that he brought Shooter on board. And so much so they don't like this, that they call a town meeting to vote him out. Apparently in Hickory, Indiana, the townspeople, the town fathers can come together and vote out the high school coach. And that's what they aim to do.




Gary Schneeberger:

And Myra's the one who tells him. She's the acting principal because the principal who was a coach had a heart attack because he was overworked on the bench. So that's one of the reasons why Coach Dale needs Shooter to be an assistant coach because he lost his other assistant coach. Myra is the acting principal. So she comes to Coach Dale and says, "Hey, they've called this meeting." But the other thing that she tells them is that she has discovered, she doesn't use these words, we'll use our words, she's discovered what his crucible was.




Gary Schneeberger:

He had coached Ithaca Warriors to the NCAA College Championship, she discovers in an old newspaper story. But he was fired and suspended for life from coaching in college because he physically assaulted a player on his own team. Myra tells him not to attend the meeting of the town because it's not going to be pretty. But he does anyway. The possible crucible of being dismissed from his job and for his past being revealed. Remember this is set in the 1950s, folks. There's no internet where you can type in Norman Dale on Google and find out what happened to him. She had to go to a big city and look it up on microfilm or something to find out what had happened to him. She tells him don't come. It's not going to be pretty. But he shows up. Even that possible crucible of having his darkest, most embarrassing crucible revealed doesn't keep him away. It doesn't keep him in bed under the covers. That's pretty remarkable and says a lot about the character of Norman Dale, doesn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

It really is. I mean, this was an incredible crucible. Where there are some beats later, we learn more about it. But he loves the game of basketball and he gets banned. Not only does he get banned for life from the NCAA, from coaching college basketball in Ithaca, New York, but the New York High School Athletic Association bans him for life from coaching high school basketball in the state of New York. Which is why there's no chance of redemption in high school basketball in New York. It'd have to be somewhere else, in this case, Indiana. So things were pretty dire.




Warwick Fairfax:

And there's some interesting moments as this town hall meeting is happening. It's about to go to a vote, as we'll see. And one of the things that happens is that he tells the town meeting, he says he's made mistakes and he takes full responsibility for it. Now, the key lesson is sometimes you make mistakes in life. Sometimes we're our earn worst enemy. Sometimes our crucible, our worst day, is 100% our fault. Not always. In this case, it was 100% Norman Dale's fault. And he realizes that, and he admits that in a later scene when he is chatting with Myra in the fields, we learn kind of a little bit more. And he said, he looks back at that scene where he sort of punches this kid out, and he wishes he could not do it. He sees himself doing it. You replay your worst moment in your life and just wish you could stop what you just did happening. But you can't.




Warwick Fairfax:

And he said the funny thing is the kid that he punched was the best kid that ever played for him. He was a good kid. He wasn't a nasty kid. He said he was tough, stubborn, and willful. And then Myra says, ironically, "Sounds like somebody I know." So it was almost like he was punching himself. So that's what made it so hard. He wasn't punching this troublemaker. Maybe the crime didn't deserve it, that the kid was a bad kid. In this case, this was a good kid. He was one of the best players he ever had.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so it just made that fall from grace so much tougher. But he was willing to own up to what he did and to live with what he did, and admit his mistakes and say it was wrong. And that's one of the key steps we always talk about in Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible, you've got to learn the lessons from your crucible. And if that's your fault, a big part of it is saying, "You know what? It was my fault. I made a mistake, I blew it, and I'm sorry." And you begin to find ways of moving forward from it. And in some cases, atoning, if that's what you need to do. So it's a very moving moment. He's up there speaking before the town hall.




Gary Schneeberger:

And two unexpected things happen during that meeting. One, you've teased a little bit in that he had a scene with Myra later where he reveals that the player that he punched was someone who was the best kid on the team. Myra's perspective on Coach Dale changes during the meeting. She goes up there with the intention of reading the story that she found in the big city and she doesn't. Her view of him has changed. She sees the character in him. She sees something in him in the same way that Coach Dale sees something in Shooter. She sees something in him that's worth giving him a chance and not reading the thing that would've been his absolute dismissal warrant if she would've read the story of what happened. And you picked up on something. When she goes back to her seat in that meeting, how she is emotionally by that moment, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, as at this point, she is the assistant principal. I think it must have happened earlier, Cletus has a heart murmur. Something happens. He's laid up a bit. And so normally it would be Cletus as the principal getting up in front of the meeting to represent the school. Well, now it's Myra. And you could see, as she's talking about Coach Norman Dale, she kind of tears up a bit. And you're right. She can't get into all of the stuff that's happened.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so you begin to see that her view of Norman Dale has changed. She has empathy. We learned earlier that she doesn't really like basketball a whole lot. She has a brother that played basketball, and her whole family idealized her brother. And oh, look, what's happening at the game. And he's so good. And it's like what about me? So she just sees these kids with this shining moment in high school, that that's their shining moment and then it's over. So she's not a great lover of the game of basketball.




Warwick Fairfax:

So it's just amazing how you see her empathy for Norman Dale really growing there. Maybe she learns not just something about him, but maybe she learns about the game of basketball, when done the right way, what it could be in this case to young boys, young men, with their character. She learns lessons that I think she never understood before meeting Norman Dale. It's a fascinating and sort of complex scene.




Gary Schneeberger:

And the other thing that was unexpected that happens during the town hall meeting is that, lo and behold, Jimmy Chitwood comes in. And Jimmy, shy kid, great jump shot, shy kid, Jimmy says to the assembled town folk that he's decided he's going to play basketball for the Hickory Huskers. He's coming back to the team. One of the parents who had just voted to get Coach Dale out, screamed something like, "See, I knew as soon as we got rid of this coach, he'd be back." But Jimmy has a surprise for him. Jimmy says he'll only come back if Coach Dale stays.




Gary Schneeberger:

And this is an appropriate time to reveal that I am indeed wearing a Hickory High School, not jersey, it's a shirsey, they call it. A shirt. This is Jimmy Chitwood's number. So I am representing right here Jimmy Chitwood. I had to, not hide, but behind my microphone, you couldn't tell what number I was wearing, but that's what number I'm wearing. I'm wearing Jimmy's number. Because Jimmy comes back to the team, and I didn't want to give that away too soon.




Gary Schneeberger:

From that moment, when Jimmy comes back, the trajectory of Hoosiers changes. The team starts winning. In a sense, the team has redeemed itself. Coach Dale, trying to help Shooter gain confidence after he froze in an earlier game when the coach was kicked out for arguing with the refs, this time gets kicked out again on purpose because he wants to give Shooter another chance to do it. And Shooter does it. He leads the team to victory.




Gary Schneeberger:

But a few games later, Shooter relapses, and he ends up in a rehab hospital. And that I think is a good reminder that redemption is a journey. It's not a one and done scenario. When moving beyond our crucibles, we often maybe even usually encounter or cause other ones. Here's the critical point. That's when it's important to have people around us who believe in us, and it's also important to be a person who believes in those going through crucibles. For me, Warwick, that was perhaps the biggest aha moment in this movie is what happened to Shooter, and realizing perfection is not required even on the road to redemption as you're walking that road, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

It is a great scene and a great moment. Coach Norman Dale, he's not a fair weather friend. It's not like, okay, I'll have you as assistant coach if you clean yourself up and stay sober, but hey, it's one strike. One strike and you're out. You make one mistake and you're history. At least not the way he treats Shooter. He has relapses. Life back from the bottom of the pit is typically not smooth. Stuff either happens to you or you tend to make mistakes. I mean, not that many people have just a completely clean slate when they're trying to climb back from crucibles, whether it's alcoholism or whatever other crucible. Sometimes there are relapses. And what's important is having somebody like Coach Norman Dale that's in your corner and it's like, they're not going to just abandon you because you make a mistake or you have a relapse.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's what's the trajectory? Are you moving forward? And somebody that believes in you the way Coach Norman Dale did, it's incredible. It's just like he's not going to give up on his team and the young boys on that team, he's not going to give up on Shooter. It's amazing. We need to be like Coach Norman Dale and not give up on people. And we also want to have people like Coach Norman Dale in our lives that won't give up on us when maybe we have a bit of a relapse. You want people that'll stay with you. And that was part of his values and beliefs. It's really impressive.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. There's a really sweet scene that happens after that when Coach Dale visits Shooter in the hospital. And Shooter is going through withdrawal from alcohol, and he's just emotionally distraught and he's almost crying, and he's kind of frantic. And he keeps apologizing, and he keeps saying he's no good and I mess everything up. And Norman Dale says to him, "Nothing could be further from the truth." Again at his lowest moment, when Shooter wants to just literally stay in bed with the sheets pulled up over his head, Coach Dale gives him a word of encouragement. A word of here's a perspective on who you are that's different from your perspective right now. That you're more than your worst day is basically what he's telling Shooter. Nothing could be further from the truth.




Gary Schneeberger:

So the Huskers make and advance in the playoffs. And Coach Dale, when they're in the playoffs, gives a speech to the team making clear how much he believes in them. I want you to listen to the words of this speech, listener. Because I think this is the kind of thing that you could type up, stick on your wall as you encounter your own crucibles. No, it's not 1950 at the moment. You're not a high school basketball player, perhaps. You're not a basketball player at all, perhaps. But what Norman Dale tells his team before this playoff game is exactly the kind of perspective we need as we're looking to move beyond a crucible and aim at a life of significance. Here's what he says.




Gary Schneeberger:

"Remember what got you here. Focus on the fundamentals. Don't get caught up in thinking about winning or losing this game. If you put your effort and attention into playing to your potential to be the best that you can be, I don't care what the scoreboard says. In my book, we're going to be winners." That applies to pretty much every situation in life that we can go through, where we get the wind knocked out, our breath taken from us, and we feel like we've been knocked off balance. Those are words, it's not about grabbing the brass ring all the time, it's about effort and significance and pursuing your vision and values. And that to me was an extremely powerful moment in the film.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. It is one of the greatest lessons that I think Coach Norman Dale has learned. I mean maybe the old one who coached the Ithaca Warriors college basketball, maybe he was all about winning. I'm guessing, he probably was. Maybe that kid that was such a good player, maybe he was making mistakes. Maybe he wasn't having a good game. The old Norman Dale was probably all about winning. But here he learns, as we often say, success in and of itself is not very rewarding. It's success, hopefully, and significance. And of the two, you always choose significance.




Warwick Fairfax:

So for Coach Norman Dale, as you said, it's not about winning or losing. It's about how you play the game, playing the right way, giving it your all. If you've given it your all, what the score board says is not relevant. You've given it your all, you've done your best and that's what matters. It's your character. It's how you play it, how you treat others. And he genuinely believes this. He is giving these young men, these boys, incredible life lessons, character lessons that will serve them well in their business careers and their families in the decades to come. These are invaluable.




Warwick Fairfax:

And he's living one of the most important games in the season, this playoff game that will determine who gets to the state championship. For a small team in Indiana, this is huge. But he says, "It's not about winning. It's about how we play the game. It's about the fundamentals. Being the best you can be." It's hard to think of a better life lesson that he could have taught those boys, those young men, at that moment. Clearly he was living his beliefs and his vision. And you have to believe he's a very different Norman Dale than last coached the Ithaca Warriors in New York in college. It's an amazing metamorphosis, amazing transition for Norman Dale.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And what happens almost immediately after that makes me think of my journalism career, and what I used to always tell reporters. When you're writing a story, show, don't tell. Show me something rather than just tell me. And Norman Dale has the opportunity to do that very thing. And he almost messes it up in the game that follows.




Gary Schneeberger:

A player who had been injured earlier in on court altercation, he got knocked into a trophy case, glass cut him on the shoulder. He gets fouled in this game, and his stitches opening up and he starts bleeding. And the trainer comes over and says, "Okay, well, we got to get him out." And Coach Dale says, without really thinking, right, it's just sort of his reflex says, "Stitch him up, get him back." Because it's one of the better players on the team. So as the player's going off with the trainer, the camera, it's a great shot, the camera shows Norman Dale walking away. And he stops and you see him from the back and he kind of drops his head and he realizes that he's responsible for these boys in ways that have nothing to do with what the scoreboard says. He just said that to them.




Gary Schneeberger:

So he reconsiders his stitch him up and get him back in the game. And he realizes also that he's lost sight of his responsibility. In the same way, not as aggressively or as destructively as when he punched his own player, but he realizes he was betraying his values by putting an injured player back in just to win. He would be betraying his values. And he calls that player back. Even if it means he's not going to win, he's going to live by his words. That's the first time we see him almost crossing the line again, but he doesn't do it. And it's a powerful thing for us to look at and see that we're going to be tempted sometimes on the road back from a crucible to cut a corner, or to do something the old way that we used to do things. And this is very instructive for us and gives us hope that we too can make the right decisions.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely, Gary. I mean, we're all human. From a faith perspective, you might say we're all fallen. We're all going to be tempted. And the issue is not the temptation. The issue is what do you do about that? Do you say no to temptation. And yes, for a second he was tempted to say, hey, I'd like to win this game. It's a big playoff game. If the kid can stand even on one leg, with one arm, let's play him. But it was a pretty significant wound. He thought about it for a second, and he self-corrected. And he says, "You know what? That's not right. Kid, you need to sit on the bench. We need to put in somebody else." And so one of the big lessons in life is we're going to be tempted. The issue isn't the temptation. It's what do you do about it? And if you can begin to self-correct, and say you know what? That's not in line with my values and beliefs. I'm not living what I just told the kids that we should be doing. That's not right.




Gary Schneeberger:

I'm a hypocrite, right? He's a hypocrite if he does that.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Sometimes you need other people to help you and call you on it. And it's good if you listen to those folks. Even better, I mean, it's good to have people helping you, it's one step even better if it doesn't even get to that point because you correct yourself before somebody else needs to or before you do damage. So it's a powerful lesson: live your values and beliefs. And if you suddenly feel like, well hang on, that's probably not a smart play, then pull it back. Don't make the mistake. And that's what Norman Dale does. It's really impressive.




Gary Schneeberger:

And in that moment, I think his redemptive arc is complete. His path to redemption, he's reached that destination. He puts significance, caring for others entrusted to his care, over success, which would be winning a playoff basketball game. And that's what we talk about here all the time. Significance is far more valuable than just success. Success with significance, great. Norman Dale decides significance is what I'm aiming for. That's what I'm preaching to these kids. That's what I'm going to live by. And if success happens, great. If not, so be it.




Gary Schneeberger:

But success does happen anyway. And it happens in a very unlikely way that involves another sweet redemption story. Ollie, when we first meet him, he's the shortest guy on the team, and he's really only the equipment manager, and he doesn't play hardly at all. Ollie ends up having to go in the game because they have a short bench, literally. Not a lot of players and not a lot of height. And Ollie who doesn't ever get to play has to go in. The other team recognizes Ollie's not probably very good. So they foul him a couple times thinking he is never going to make the free throws.




Gary Schneeberger:

And what I loved about this, Warwick, is that it's set in the '50s, and that was when it was more common to shoot free throws underhanded. And so the first free throw that Ollie throws after he gets fouled is like 10 feet short of the basket. So you're like, oh gosh. And you can see the wind coming out of all the Hickory fans in the stands. But he's got to make two shots to give them the lead. And he actually does it. It's the redemption story of the "least valuable member of the team" who's given the chance and he leads the team to victory. He seizes that chance when he is given it. And that is the belief, and even putting him on the team.




Gary Schneeberger:

If we go back to the first scene, when Ollie says, "I'm just the equipment manager," and Coach Dale who just met the players minutes ago, says, "No, okay, you're going to play." He says, "No, you're a player." So the very fact that, sure, Coach Dale probably wouldn't have, if he had the ability to not have to put Ollie in, he probably would've chosen not to do so, but he was the last player on there. But the only reason Ollie's on that bench is because Coach Dale believed he could contribute something, believed he deserved to be a player when he first met him at the start of his journey. Which is again, another way of how coach Norman Dale's character shines through and helps the team achieve significance and success together.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, there's so many examples of redemption in this movie, and that's another great example. Nobody believes in Ollie. He's the shortest player, the least athletically talented. Critical times in the game where he just dribbles the ball out of bounds. He gets the ball stolen. I mean, if you were a cynic, you'd say Ollie is single-handedly trying to help us lose this game. If you were a parent of another kid, you tend not to be charitable because you're all about winning. But it was just a wonderful moment in which somebody believed in Ollie. They carry him off on their shoulders when they win. That's a story he'll have for the rest of his life, irrespective of what he does. So having somebody believe in you like that, that's huge. It's a small part of the movie, but there's so many examples of somebody like Coach Norman Dale believing in folks that could have a big impact on his life. We don't know. But it's a wonderful, another redemptive arc on, in this case, not a big character in the movie. But it's pretty impressive.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. It's a great cinematic moment because you sort of forget Ollie's even there. And then all of a sudden these things happen, and Ollie has to go on the court. And it's like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's Ollie. Oh no. Even as a viewer, right? You're going, ooh. I know that this is one of those movies that the team probably wins in the end, but ooh, Ollie. How's he going to do that? But he does. He does do that.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the things that Norman Dale does throughout the movie, and you were struck by one of the things when they go... Hickory, small town. In fact, the Hickory Huskers is actually based on the true story of Milan High School in Indiana, which won the state tournament, state title in 1954, over a school that had 10 times the number of students that Hickory had.




Gary Schneeberger:

So they're not accustomed, this place that they're going to go play in now for the championship game, that Ollie wins the semifinal, and now they're going to go to the finals, this field house they're playing, this enormous field house in Indianapolis is unlike anything... I mean, Coach Dale tells somebody in the press, "My kids haven't even seen a two story building, many of them." And there's this three, four story, huge field house. But one of the things he does, again, the character of Norman Dale, trying to ease the path forward for his kids, you were struck by the way that he kind pulls out a tape measure and teaches them something that drops down their anxiety level.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's sort of a wonderful scene. Here they are in what they call Butler Fieldhouse, which I'm assuming maybe Butler University that happens to be in Indianapolis. At least one would lead you to believe that. But it's a massive cavernous place. And so he gets the tape measure, measures the sidelines. Has somebody get on somebody's shoulders and measures the height of the hoop. And it's indeed 10 feet. And he says, "Funny, the measurements of this court are the same as our court back in Hickory. Huh? That's interesting." Obviously the place is much bigger, but the court's the same. It was a powerful way of telling his students, telling his kids, hey, I know this seems pretty scary. It's just a basketball court. It's the same as we have. Just really trying to settle their nerves down. And yeah, it's an amazing moment.




Gary Schneeberger:

So this will come as no surprise probably to anybody who's listening here. But Hickory does get to the finals. They get into that big fieldhouse. A small school from the sticks playing a big city powerhouse. It is, as we heard in the clip at the top of the show, it is a David and Goliath story that they would even be there to play. A group of boys no one thought could reach such heights led by a coach whose failure almost robbed him from ever reaching such heights again. Each needed the other to get there. That's what makes Coach Dale's final words in that clip we heard at the outset so poignant. When he has the huddle and says not any rah rah statement to get them motivated. He just looks across them, his eyes pan across the boys in front of him, and he says, "I love you, guys." Such a poignant moment that speaks to the importance, the value of significance over mere success.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean that whole David and Goliath metaphor, it is true. I mean, we hear the commentators say that the school they're playing from South Bend, Indiana, it's a massive school. It has an enrollment of 2,800. 2,800 kids. Earlier on in the movie, we learn that Hickory has only 64 boys in the high school. Well doing the math, assuming it's roughly 50-50 boys and girls, that means it's like a pool of 1,400 boys from South Bend High School to 64 at Hickory. I mean you do the math, and it's nuts.




Warwick Fairfax:

And it turns out that they are a lot bigger. They have a starting lineup with kids there were 6'4", 6'5". Back in the early '50s, that's big. I mean, it's more commonplace now, but high school basketball in the early '50s, 6'4", 6'5", I mean, wow. It'd be very easy to look at that and say, okay, they're probably more athletic. They're bigger than us. Our chances of winning is one in a million. Let's give up. It is truly a David and Goliath moment.




Warwick Fairfax:

But obviously, as we'll find out later, it doesn't deter Coach Norman Dale. You heard the speech in the clip. He is going to go in there. He loves these guys. They're going to do their best, win or lose. It's not about the scoreboard. They're going to play the game of basketball the right way. And they give it their all. But certainly before the game starts, you would think the chances they have of winning is close to zero, given the size of the school, the size of the other players. You would say, maybe it's not zero chance, but it's about as close as you could get. It really is a David and Goliath moment, that game.




Gary Schneeberger:

And David, who in the biblical story has a slingshot and a stone, in this movie, Hickory has a Jimmy Chitwood and a basketball. Because here's my guy, Jimmy Chitwood. Here's my jersey again. Jimmy Chitwood ends up taking the last shot, wins the game. And Hickory becomes the unlikely state champions in the state of Indiana. Which being state champions in general, I mean in Wisconsin, that would be a big thing to be state champions in Wisconsin. The football team in my high school won a couple of football championships in the state when I was in high school. But it's not quite the same.




Gary Schneeberger:

Basketball is everything in Indiana. And that's where Larry Bird is from, right? To be state champions in that state, to be that small a school, enormous accomplishment. And again, based on a real accomplishment of a high school, Milan High School, in 1954 that did the same thing. That's who Hickory is based on. But the beautiful thing about the movie, it ends, Hickory wins, Shooter is fully reconciled with his son. That scene, Warwick, when that happens, the reconciliation of Shooter and his son. I know that moves you seeing that play out on screen. Talk a little about how that was so moving to you.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Again, obviously you have the redemption of Norman Dale with Cletus, the high school principal, longtime buddy of Norman Dale's believing in him, giving him a second chance. And you've got Coach Norman Dale believing in Shooter, giving him second chances, even when Shooter kind of falls back and is drinking again. Coach Dale doesn't give up on him. And at first, Shooter's son is like, "Well coach, why are you doing this?" It's hard for the son to believe in the father. But in some ways I think you have Coach Norman Dale modeling a redemptive spirit, modeling redemptive character. And in a sense, he disciples and teaches Shooter's son about forgiveness and redemption.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so there's a wonderful scene where you've got Shooter still in rehab in the hospital. And his son goes to see him. And Shooter is just feeling very bad, and says, "I'm so sorry. I was drunk again." And he's feeling really bad about himself and very contrite. And his son says, "You know what, Dad? It doesn't matter. It's okay. And when you get out of here, let's get a house and we'll be a family and live together." And I think this is before that last game. And Shooter says he wishes he could be there. And obviously he listens to it on the radio. And you can imagine the elation that he has. TV wasn't quite widespread back then, certainly not in hospital wards.




Gary Schneeberger:

He had a little Philco radio that was doing the job for him.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. So that sense of redemption not only is Shooter feeling like people believe in him, at least Norman Dale does, and he's assistant coach on the team. But to get the belief of your son, it doesn't get any better than that to have your son believe in you again. My gosh, that is just turbo charging your sense of redemption. And at that point, we don't know what happened, but at that point, I don't know what more motivation Shooter would need to sort of stay on the straight and narrow, having his son believe in him. I mean, all of those helps you come back when you have the belief of somebody like Norman Dale, and then finally the belief of his son, it's just a wonderful redemptive moment.




Gary Schneeberger:

And to close up all the storylines, Coach Dale and Myra wind up kind of becoming romantically linked at the end. And it truly is, by the time the movie ends, it's kind of lives of significance all around it. It's a great example. All these narrative arcs that we've talked about in terms of success plus significance over just success, and pursuing significance as you're aiming at whatever, however, it might turn out. Like Coach Dale said, "Whether win or lose, if you give your best, you're winners in my book." That is a great message to take away.




Gary Schneeberger:

So there's lives of significance for everybody here. And it's funny, Warwick, speaking of lives of significance, I know that one of the chief areas of significance for you is your family. And as happens sometimes on the show, what we're talking about, there's a little bit of a connection to the Fairfax family in some way. Explain that to folks, how Indiana basketball and the Fairfax family go together like peanut butter and jelly maybe a little bit.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. You would think how can that possibly be? I grew up in a big city in Sydney, very cosmopolitan. But yeah, all my three kids, Will, Gracie, and Robbie, they all went to a small Christian college, about 2,000 odd undergrad. And it's in Indiana. And so we've been there often over the years. And it is kind of like the movie, in the beginning of the movie, when you see Coach Norman Dale drive over these country roads. Taylor University is in Upland, Indiana. And it literally is in the middle of nowhere, cornfields and fields for miles. I mean, if anything, Hickory, I think is a bit more densely populated than Upland, Indiana. It's a little bit more remote than Hickory.




Gary Schneeberger:

I mean, you and I went there for a speaking engagement because you spoke at Taylor, and we got blocked from our hotel room in the middle of nowhere by some construction that was going on. We had to go 10 miles out of our way to get there. So you're right. It is in the middle of nowhere, and it's not easy to navigate.




Warwick Fairfax:

But one of the reasons that, I mean, I loved this movie even before my kids went to Taylor, but there's this iconic moment. It's in December every year, the Taylor basketball team, they play this game, and it's called the Silent Night Game. And what's fascinating is this moment at Taylor has been on ESPN, Fox News, and other networks more than once. Now, how could a small Christian college get on ESPN? You would think that's kind of impossible. Nobody's really heard of Taylor outside of maybe Christian education.




Warwick Fairfax:

So there's a moment when the whole people in the stands, all of the fans are silent until the 10th point is scored. And when the 10th point is scored, all pandemonium breaks out. You have kids dressed up in everything from gorilla suits to, I mean all sorts of weird and wacky costumes. And they all run onto the field and music's playing and all of this. The poor opposing team realizes this is going to happen. They played Taylor in their conference. They know at the 10th point, stuff's going to happen.




Warwick Fairfax:

Then after the mayhem ends, and the fans go back in the stands, the fans sing Silent Night. The game of basketball is going on. And so you're playing the game while people are singing Silent Night, and they're moving back and forth. And so you won't see it in the audio version, but we'll try and put a clip in. There's a YouTube clip. You'll get a feel of when people yell when the 10th point is scored, and then Silent Night is being played. And you'll see in this clip, a close up of my oldest son, Will. He's got a green hat on, no shirt. He is part of another group of guys in his dorm. And not quite sure how we'll point him out, maybe an arrow. We'll figure out something so that you can figure out who he is.




Gary Schneeberger:

He's got a T painted on his chest, is that what he is got painted on his chest?




Warwick Fairfax:

A T and a green hat. So you'll see it. But it's a wonderful moment and a great tradition. And it's Indiana basketball. I mean, of all the states in the country, basketball is synonymous with Indiana. Small town places that brings people together. And yeah, it's a wonderful tradition. And they've been doing that for many years of 10th point, it goes silent, and then they go crazy, and singing Silent Night, packed stadium. It's pretty amazing. Even the opposing team, it's hard not to get swept up in the moment when those sorts of things happen. So yeah, Indiana basketball, it's a special place and they've got special traditions.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it is even in that moment, as rambunctious and Mardi Gras-like. I've seen the clip, you showed me the clip of all of the... I mean, once that 10th point is scored, it's Mardi Gras. It's New Year's Eve in Times Square. It's crazy. But then to sing a Christmas hymn of significance at that time, again, I think speaks to what's really important in the heart certainly of the students at Taylor.




Gary Schneeberger:

And backing up into the movie, we see what's important, right? We've been talking about in this episode, what's important to Coach Norman Dale, and the way that he pays that forward to some people. He's been given a second chance. And in that second chance, he gives other people a second chance. And that's really kind of a beautiful way of living beyond your crucible.




Gary Schneeberger:

So this is fun because I've never asked you this question in any episode that we've ever had a dialogue. And it's appropriate for this, the final episode of Lights, Camera, Crucibles. You ask guests often on the show, the last question is, what's your message of hope for listeners? I'll reframe it a little bit. What is your perspective message of hope that you believe, big picture, 30,000 foot level, this eight part series on what movie heroes can teach us about overcoming setback and failure? What's your message of take this away folks, here's your hopeful nugget, as you consider all eight episodes of this series?




Warwick Fairfax:

I'd say we took a lot on Beyond the Crucible and Crucible Leadership that your worst day doesn't have to define you. It could be from something that was horrific done to you. It could be from your own mistakes. And we've had a lot of different examples. In an earlier movie, The Natural, you had Roy Hobbs not seeing this sort of psycho woman that shot him, and he believes he should have seen it. And maybe he should have. Maybe he shouldn't have been with her in the first place.




Gary Schneeberger:

Ironically, sorry-




Warwick Fairfax:

He had a part to play. Yeah?




Gary Schneeberger:

Ironically, she's played by actress, Barbara Hershey, who plays Myra in this movie. So look at that symmetry. Sorry to interrupt you. But that is interesting.




Warwick Fairfax:

No, not at all. That is such a good point. I was thinking about that, but such a good point. But yeah, I mean, in various of those movies, or in Iron Man that we did very recently, you have just a guy who's just egotistical. It's all about him. And he goes through a redemptive arc where he realizes maybe it's not about me. Maybe it's not all about Tony Stark. Maybe it's about redeeming and helping others. So I think one of the messages of hope in the series is your worst day doesn't have to define you. Part of it is learning the lessons of your crucible. It's realizing what matters in life. What do I really want my beliefs and values to be? In the case of Tony Stark, it went from narcissistic self-centered, it's all about power and money, to maybe I can use the technology we develop rather than making weapons to help others in sustainable energy.




Warwick Fairfax:

So this is a great capstone with Norman Dale. It's redemption after redemption. Life doesn't get much better than when you can use your crucible as a force of redemption. Your crucible, rather than being one of pain, maybe turns into a crucible of redemption where you can help others come back from their worst days. You can pay it forward. You can give a second chance at redemption, a second chance at life to others. So we talk all the time about, at Crucible Leadership, is your worst day doesn't have to define you. Learn the lessons of your crucible. And instead of living some hedonistic, it's all about me and success and fame life, live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's what Coach Norman Dale does. It's not about winning. It's about helping kids learn about how to play basketball the right way. And more importantly, help kids learn how to win in the game of life, help them learn lessons of character and teamwork and selflessness. So really, I guess the message of hope from the series is your worst day doesn't have to define you. Redemption is possible. And you can pay redemption forward by being a force of redemption in other people's lives. Helping other people live lives of significance. Help other people live lives of redemption.




Warwick Fairfax:

Here Coach Norman Dale helps to redeem Shooter's life, Ollie, maybe his life wasn't in turmoil, but little some grains of redemption is if you can use your redemption as a force to help redeem others, to me, that's about as good a life of significance as you can get that will lead to joy and fulfillment at a level you've probably never experienced. So to me, that's what life should be is helping to be a force of redemption in the world, and helping yourself and others lead a life of significance. So yeah.




Gary Schneeberger:

You know what I love about what you just said? You've just described your arc, right? That's Warwick Fairfax's arc. That's exactly what your life has been. That's what you're doing through Crucible Leadership. That is an appropriate place listener for us to tie the bow. I'm going to leave you with this reflection question about specifically, yes Hoosiers, but also in general, about what Warwick just talked about the series, and that is this.




Gary Schneeberger:

We talked a lot about redemption here. So ask yourself this question. How can your own journey of moving beyond your crucible be viewed as a story of redemption? Think about that. Warwick said at the top of the show, he had not thought of his moving beyond his crucible in terms of deliverance until we were recording a video, and then it just popped out of his mouth. So reflect on those things. How has your journey that you may have concluded the journey of a crucible, you may still be walking it, how can that be looked at as a story of redemption, and what can you do to continue this? What can you do to pay it forward, to help other people? The old shampoo commercial, and I told two friends, and so on and so on and so on. I paid it forward. And what kind of redemption revolution might we be able to create if we do the kinds of things that Norman Dale did, and I'll embarrass him, and that Warwick has done.




Gary Schneeberger:

So listener, thank you so much for spending eight weeks, two months with us, as we've gone through this series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles. We appreciate your interest in what we do at Beyond the Crucible and at Crucible Leadership. And we will be back next couple of weeks with another episode that will talk about this truth that we've talked about in all eight of these episodes, and we've talked about in all 120 plus episodes of the show, and that's this. Your crucible experiences are painful. We know that. They're difficult. They knock the wind out of your sales and they can knock you off course where you think you're going in life. But they're not the end of your story. Your worst day doesn't define you. If you learn the lessons of that crucible, if you apply them as you move forward, where you're going to get taken to is on a journey toward the best end point that you can get. And that end point is, that destination is, a life of significance.

Few movie heroes undergo a success-to-significance arc fueled by their crucible more dramatically than Iron Man – and maybe even more so, his alter ego, Tony Stark. In his first movie appearance, Tony is a glib, hedonistic billionaire playboy who has a lot to live with, but not much to live for. That all changes when he’s attacked with some of the same missiles his company makes and is nearly killed. As he emerges from that crucible, given a second chance by one man’s surgical skill and self-sacrifice, he becomes an entirely new man – and not just because he builds himself a suit of super-powered armor.

Highlights

Iron Man’s place as the most depicted hero in the MCU (2:44)
“Constitutionally incapable of being responsible” (6:18)
Tony’s life-altering crucible (9:07)
The importance exploring origin stories (10:47)
A great fellow traveler: Ho Yinsen (15:58)
Why Iron Man would have fit in our SECOND-ACT SIGNIFICANCE series (21:47)
How Tony’s crucibles lead him to his purpose (32:19)
Tony learns to guard his heart (37:08)
How Captain America helps Iron Man grow even more in his character (40:47)
Crucibles derail Iron Man’s life of significance for a season (46:56)
Robert Downey Jr. on the crucibles his character faced … and how he overcame them (55:30)

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Tony Stark:

They've been dealing under the table and I'm gonna stop them. I'm gonna find my weapons and destroy them.




Pepper Potts:

Tony, you know that I would help you with anything, but I cannot help you if you're gonna start all of this again.




Tony Stark:

There is nothing except this. There's no art opening. There is no benefit. There is nothing to sign! There is the next mission, and nothing else.




Pepper Potts:

Is that so? Well, then I quit.




Tony Stark:

You stood by my side all these years while I reaped the benefits of destruction, and now that I'm trying to protect the people I've put in harm's way, you're gonna walk out?




Pepper Potts:

You're gonna kill yourself, Tony. I'm not going to be a part of it.




Tony Stark:

I shouldn't be alive, unless it was for a reason. I'm not crazy, Pepper. I just finally know what I have to do. And I know, in my heart, that it's right.




Gary Schneeberger:

Those are breakthrough thoughts for any movie hero. The moment they understand and embrace their mission. But for this week's subject of our summer series, Lights, Cameras, Crucibles, well, it's one of the most unexpected revelations of any we've discussed in what is now our seventh episode. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show. Warwick and I talk this week about Iron Man, and maybe even more so about his alter ego, Tony Stark, a glib, hedonistic billionaire playboy who has a lot to live with but not much to live for. That all changes when he's attacked with some of the same missiles his company makes and is nearly killed. As he emerges from that crucible, given a second chance by one man's surgical skill and self-sacrifice, he becomes and entirely new man and not just because he builds himself a suit of superpower armor.




Gary Schneeberger:

What fuels his journey from success to significance? Keep listening, especially for the reflections of the actor who portrayed him, Robert Downey Jr.. When you hear his perspective, you might just think Warwick's been doing some script writing on the side.




Gary Schneeberger:

Just to sort of level set where we're at, like we always do, Iron Man was the first movie and the first hero that Marvel Studios set forth in establishing what came to be called, is still called, the Marvel Cinematic Universe. He has appeared in three Iron Man movies, a Captain America movie, a Spider-Man movie, and four Avengers movies. Of all the heroes in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Iron Man is the most prolific. You see him the most.




Gary Schneeberger:

We would argue, and we will argue over the course of this podcast today, that he has the most dramatic arc, character arc of any hero in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. That isn't because, really, of his iron suited persona. It's his alter ego. Not his secret identity, as is known, because he reveals that pretty quickly at the end of what we're going to talk about today, Iron Man, but that's Tony Stark. The arc of Tony Stark in the Marvel Cinematic Universe is one of the most dramatic, is the most dramatic in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It rivals the dramatic arc of any character that you'll see in a film that has sequels.




Gary Schneeberger:

We're going to unpack Iron Man 2008 as well as some of those other things that lead Tony Stark on his journey to a life of significance. The first thing I want to say, Warwick, and I didn't talk about this when we talked before, but did you know this movie premiered in 2008, but its premiere in the US was May 2nd, 2008, but it premiered I guess three weeks earlier than that. Guess where it premiered three weeks earlier than that on April 14th, 2008?




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, I have no business knowing this. I just so happened to look up some notes on Iron Man, and it said Sydney.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yes!




Warwick Fairfax:

So it's a miracle I actually knew that, but I just happened to glance at it earlier this morning, so go figure.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, and it's like... We can't get away, even on this series, even on this special summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, we can not get away from our reliance on our returning to Australia like our host. Once again-




Warwick Fairfax:

Well we haven't said this before, but the amount of superheroes and heroes that are from Australia, obviously Chris Hemsworth as Thor. We're not specifically covering him in this series, but he's sort of part of that. Russell Crowe, gladiator, as well as Robin Hood, which we've already discussed. The original Robin Hood starring Errol Flynn in 1938 was also Australian. I don't know what it is about Australians playing superheroes, but who knows?




Gary Schneeberger:

There's also Hugh Jackman who played Wolverine in all the X-Men movies, so-




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Yeah. There you go.




Gary Schneeberger:

I'll say this as long as we're on the subject, there is one from my hometown, Kenosha, Wisconsin. That's Mark Ruffalo, the actor who plays the Hulk in the Avengers movies. He is from Kenosha, Wisconsin. He's a few years younger than I am. He and I actually took a swimming class together when we were in our early... I was in my early teens, he was probably 10 or so because he's four or five years younger than I am. So there you go. The life connections with Life, Cameras, Crucibles that Warwick and I have.




Gary Schneeberger:

Okay, moving on. About Iron Man, when we first meet Tony Stark in the movie Iron Man, he is, as his best friend Army Colonel James Rhodes says, I love this quote, "Constitutionally incapable of being responsible." He doesn't mean the founders said he can't be responsible. His constitution, his make-up. In his make-up, he is incapable of being responsible. He's living life on his own terms. He's doing what he wants when he wants and with anybody he wants. He's not answering to or really caring much about anyone but himself. That, Warwick, is a recipe, right? That's sort of a secret super-potion for running into crucibles. If you're living your life like that, chances are you're going to hit a crucible. That seems to be the experience we've had in talking with guests. It's my own personal experience. Would you say that's a truth of crucibles? That if that's the way you're living, if you're living like Tony Stark at the start of Iron Man, you shouldn't be surprised when crucibles come.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, no. I mean, in a sense, Tony Stark, at the beginning of the movie, represents almost an anti-hero. For me, as listeners know, growing up in a very wealthy background, 150 year old very large family media business in Australia, Tony Stark represents everything I didn't want to be. Playboy, couldn't care less about other people, going out to parties, with a different woman every night. Just it's all about him, self centered, hedonistic, couldn't care less about anybody else. That represents everything that I strive my whole life not to be.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's sad. People like that, you think they'd be happy because they've got as much money as anybody has. They can do what they want with whom they want, when they want. But yeah, as we'll see with Tony Stark, it's a very empty existence. It's pretty much impossible, I think for humans, given the way we're wired, to be happy. The early incarnation of Tony Stark is it really, the word that comes to mind is sad. It's very sad. You can not be happy in this hedonistic, it's all about me, I've got as much money to do what I want, when I want, with who I want. That's not a recipe for happiness at all, but that's the early Tony Stark. That's the beginning of the arc of where we first see him.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And he ends up pretty quickly after we meet him in this movie, Iron Man in 2008, he ended up pretty quickly running into a crucible. He's being driven somewhere in the Middle East, turns out to be Afghanistan, with American soldiers. He's joking and clowning and posing for selfies with them, and he's impressing them with his exactly what we've been talking about, his playboy ways.




Gary Schneeberger:

But that first crucible hits very shockingly and very powerfully. The caravan that he's riding with the soldiers in is attacked by missiles. As he's panicked outside of the vehicle he was in, he notices right before it blows up, one of the missiles that has been fired at him and the soldiers has written on its side, "Stark Industries," and he is, that's his company, the company he inherited from his late father, which makes weapons. He is seriously wounded by the attack, and as we... Very well done by the filmmaker, the director John Favreau, who also plays his chauffer, Happy Hogan, in this movie and throughout all of Iron Man's appearances, he's seriously wounded. He's got some blood coming out of his chest, and he fades out of consciousness just as the screen fades to black.




Gary Schneeberger:

But then the movie does something really interesting. It takes us back 36 hours to give us a better picture, a more fulsome picture of who Tony Stark is. We flash back 36 hours to what we at Crucible Leadership like to call his origin story, right? That's one of the things you really like to drill down on with guests because when you... Right? Explain why you like to drill down with guests on their origin story because that's why they do it here with Iron Man, but it'll help explain a little bit why origin stories are so important to understanding people.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, I guess you wonder, so what makes Tony Stark the playboy, the hedonistic person that he is? We get a bit of a glimpse into his background and what, as we'll see here in a minute, what makes him him. But to help understand who the person is as he goes through a crucible, you've got to understand how they grew up, which often determines where our values come from and personality, skills, and abilities. So to really understand in as much depth as possible a human being, you really need to understand the origin story, their parents, their culture, their hometown. That's why we do it, and certainly we do get quite a glimpse into his origin story. Tony Stark's.




Gary Schneeberger:

And his origin story is, if I had to pick one word, it's gilded. He was born into wealth. He inherited, as we said, his late father's money and his late father's weapons manufacturing company. He is blessed, in some cases maybe cursed a little bit, with genius. He's a billionaire playboy who runs the world's most prolific and successful weapons manufacturing company. The flashback scene also shows him demonstrating for the military his company's latest weapon called the Jericho Missile.




Gary Schneeberger:

During that scene, there are reporters there watching the demonstration along with military folks, and one of the reporters asks him, "Is it better to be feared or respected?" Here's the glimpse, from his origin story, into Tony Stark's character at this time. He says, kind of glibly, kind of smugly, "Is it too much to ask for both? Is it too much to ask for both, being feared and being respected?"




Gary Schneeberger:

What we come to learn in this... It's short. It's only about 10, 15 minutes, this origin story scenes, but what is revealed is he's the smartest guy in the world and one of the richest, but there's a sense with all of that, you alluded to it earlier, that he has a lot to live with, but he has nothing to live for. Let me say that again. He has a lot to live with, a lot of trappings, but nothing to live for. Nothing that engages his heart, it seems.




Gary Schneeberger:

He's gliding glibly through life. His day to day existence is one of great success, but seemingly little significance. How does that play into why we're... I mean, of all the heroes that we've talked about, he seems to be a great one for us to talk about on Beyond the Crucible because that idea of great success minus significance being unfulfilling is something you talk about all the time.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's so true, Gary. I mean, since Tony Stark is the prototype of the emptiness of success alone, success without significance. It doesn't fulfill. It leads to emptiness, a lack of purpose, hedonism. He goes from party to party, woman to woman, person to person. He doesn't care about anybody. I'm not even sure if he cares about himself. He's just not in a deep sense, he cares about nothing. He just lives day to day in this vacuous, empty state. It's really depressing. There's no happiness. There's no joy. There's just drink, relationships, not even relationships.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. Hook-ups.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. Yeah. In the real sense of that word. He is an archetype of what it is to have success and only success. Yes, he's an MIT graduate. He's one of the smartest people on the planet. He can invent or create anything. But for what purpose? There's no purpose. There's no rudder. Without a rudder or a purpose, life is empty. And so really, out of all the folks we've had so far on the series, he just exemplifies in this early part of the movie success without significance is empty, it's hopeless, it's meaningless. It's depressing, and it's sad. So he is really the archetype of why success alone, not only is it not fulfilling, it's just depressing and empty. It's a great archetype.




Gary Schneeberger:

We're drilling down so far on this point I think here because it's important to realize, a lot of times people, especially when they're going through crucibles, will look at others who we don't know, we see them on TV, we see them walking down the street, we know of them, and we think, "Wow, they've got it all together. They have money, and they have position, and they have prestige," and we think that's the way to go. That's where happiness and joy and fulfillment and significance comes from. What Tony Stark reveals, and it's done very well in about 15 minutes at the start of this movie, and what we've been talking about, that's not the case. Tony's about to realize that.




Gary Schneeberger:

Back in Afghanistan, scene goes back to Afghanistan, he's been taken captive by rebels in an unstable part of the country. He's been saved by another captive, the scientist named Ho Yinsen, who removed shrapnel from around his heart when the bomb exploded and inserted an electromagnet in his chest to keep the shards away from going into his heart and killing him. He's being kept alive by an electromagnet that was fashioned out of spare parts by his fellow captive, another scientist named Ho Yinsen.




Gary Schneeberger:

Knowing that they have Tony Stark, the bad guys here, they're known as the Ten Rings, a rebel group in Afghanistan, they give him some spare parts, some of his own missiles that have been sold to them. They give Tony Stark all these pieces, and they want him to build them this Jericho Missile that he had shot off in his audition with the military. All the materials are left there for him to work on.




Gary Schneeberger:

But as he's about to go do that, Ho Yinsen, who may be the best, we call them fellow travelers, the best teammate of anybody we've seen so far in this series. Ho Yinsen says to him, looking at all of these spare parts to build a weapon of mass destruction, says, "This is your legacy, Stark. Your life's work in the hands of those murderers. Is that how you want to go out? Is this the last defense of the great Tony Stark, or are you going to do something about it?" It's clear from this scene, isn't it, that Tony's conscience is pricked for the first time that we've seen him by that comment from his fellow captive.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's very true. Here he is in captivity in some cave, the bad guys, in this case the captors, Ten Rings, they have him. He's seen the destruction that the weapons his company makes does. I think as we'll see, he realizes that his own weapons are killing American soldiers. So this weapons proliferation is one of the concerns out there is, it's very difficult to make sure that any of the quote, unquote good guys get the weapons. He sees, for the first time, what his company is doing.




Warwick Fairfax:

In a sense, Yinsen, the scientist who is captive there, he's, as we'll see, he's acting almost like a biblical prophet. In the Bible, the prophets are the truth tellers. They tell the king, they tell those in authority typically what they don't want to hear, which sometimes can mean a death sentence when you do that. You've got to be courageous. He's telling Tony Stark what he doesn't want to hear, but he desperately needs to hear if his life from a character and moral point of view is going to be saved.




Warwick Fairfax:

Ho Yinsen does Tony an incredible service by speaking the very hard truth. What's more painful? Being in captivity, or having that kind of truth that cuts to the heart? His heart's already in a mess physically with the shrapnel. What's more painful? I don't know. Both are incredibly painful. Those kinds of words, those are tough to hear, and I'm sure they were. But Tony knew that they were true. He knew it once it was spoken.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's something that you've said many times on this show and in your book, Crucible Leadership, this idea of being able to speak truth to power. Ho Yinsen does that. Ho Yinsen speaks not just what Tony wants to hear, but what he needs to hear. There's another conversation. It's very brief. They're talking about families, and Tony asks him if he has a family, and he says yes, he has a wife and two kids. Yinsen asks Tony, and Tony says no, he's got no one. Very keen observation by Yinsen. He says, "So you're a man who has everything and nothing." Again, that's one of those things that speaking truth to power, finding someone who will say what you need to hear, that admonishment changes the trajectory of Tony Stark's life as much as nearly dying in the mortar attack does. Those kinds of things that Yinsen tells him begins to get him to realize how empty his existence is.




Gary Schneeberger:

So he doesn't build them. He's working in the cave with all these materials he's been given, but he doesn't build the Ten Rings a missile. He builds himself a mechanized suit of armor that gives him super strength, makes him impervious to bullets, and allows him to fly for at least a little while to fly away from the cave when the time comes. But when his captors catch wind of what he's doing, they try to kill him. Yinsen distracts them long enough for the suit to power up, and he's mortally wounded.




Gary Schneeberger:

As he dies, as Ho Yinsen dies, Tony finally gets around, he hasn't done this before. Again, that selfishness. He wasn't able to even bring himself to thank this man for saving his life. He thanks him, and Yinsen replies, "Don't waste your life." He thanks this man for saving his life, and this man says to him with his dying breath, "Don't waste it." The rest of Iron Man and the rest of Tony Stark's journey throughout all the movies he appears in in the Marvel Cinematic Universe really spotlights his efforts to do just that, to not waste his life, to move from just success to success with significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

We're talking about Iron Man and Tony Stark as part of our series Lights, Camera, Crucibles, but really, Warwick, couldn't he have fit in perfectly in our previous series, Second Act Significance? Isn't that where Tony Stark's headed now after Ho Yinsen passes away?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. His first act is hedonism, playboy, overseeing a company that makes weapons that kills people, including American soldiers. But you can not overstate the service that Ho Yinsen does for Tony Stark. Ho Yinsen, as we see, he sacrifices his life so that Tony is able to power up the Iron Man suit. He wouldn't have escaped without that. Yeah, there's just that, the phrases he says, "You have everything, and yet nothing." That was probably the most cutting thing he ever said. "You have everything, but nothing." Again, that's just a dagger to the heart. Tony knows it's true. "Don't waste your life."




Warwick Fairfax:

It's so moving that I guess we don't know the backstory, but Ho Yinsen's family have been killed. You make the reference that he'll see them basically in the afterlife or heaven or some such phrase. As he's saying, "Don't waste your life," he basically says, "It was always the plan for me to sacrifice my life for you." We don't know his faith origin exactly, but he's clearly a person of faith, and he sees it as some divine plan... I don't know whether it's to save Tony, but certainly for him to sacrifice his life for Tony, and he believes he'll see his family in the afterlife. It's hard to deal with somebody that sacrifices their life for you. That changes Tony's life as much as anything. His life will never be the same after the tremendous service and words and the sacrifice of his life that Ho Yinsen does for Tony Stark. It's really incredible.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. We see that immediately after this scene when Yinsen dies. Tony, as I said, the Iron Man suit that he builds can fly for a little bit. It takes him out of the cave area. He lands in the desert. He's rescued by his friend Colonel Rhodes who, they're such buddies, he calls him Rhodey. He immediately calls a press conference. I love that. As a PR guy, the first thing Tony Stark does when he's out of the cave and he's into safety calls a press conference. Bravo. Bring the media in. He says this as he takes his first step toward a life of significance. He says to the assembled press about his experience in Afghanistan, "I saw American kids killed by the very weapons I created to protect them. I realize I have more to offer this world than just making things blow up." And he announces plans to get out of the weapons business.




Gary Schneeberger:

This is another critical Crucible Leadership point here. You don't have to have your plan all figured out to move toward a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Your vision is rooted in your skills and passions and values, but you don't have to have a completed blueprint to move toward it, even if you're a wizard with blueprints like Tony Stark is. I mean, he goes to work on those blueprints and starts to take, as you like to say, small step by small step toward a life of significance. He doesn't have it all figured out. He's not exactly sure what it looks like, but he's moving toward it, inspired by his friend in the cave who gave his life to him. He begins moving toward that, and that is really when Tony Stark's life starts to turn around, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. One of the things we say on Beyond the Crucible and Crucible Leadership all the time is your vision needs to be rooted, yes, in your desire and skills, but above all, it needs to be rooted in your fundamental beliefs. Your passions, what you believe to be most dear and most true. He realizes with his prophet, fellow traveler if you will, Ho Yinsen in the cave, that his overseeing this weapons business is killing not only people but American people specifically, and he's American, Tony Stark.




Warwick Fairfax:

So he makes this decision based on ethics and morals from his standpoint that he believes it's immoral, it's wrong, from his perspective... Again, I'm not trying to make some overarching value judgment, but from his perspective here, he believes that it's against his morals and ethics to be in the weapons business. Now, Stark Industries you sense is predominantly a weapons business, so what does that mean? Tony is a brilliant guy. It's easy to say he'll figure something out. He's probably thinks, "Yeah, I'll probably figure something out," but his attitude is, even if I don't figure something out, and he does and he will, I'm willing to bet everything on my morals and values.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's one of the things you have to do. It doesn't always mean it's a bet the farm moment. It turns out to be not the case here. But you've got to say, "My morals and my ethics and values are such that if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. It's not about money. It's not about my job. I have to do what's right, period." He doesn't have it all figured out, but that first step is a massive one, in a sense. He says, "I'm going to live in light of my values and morals, and we're not going to be in the weapons business." It's a massive decision, but it's rooted in the anchor of his values and beliefs. In that sense, it's a great role model in terms of the process that he uses to make a decision.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. That's perhaps the first time we can say about Tony Stark, Iron Man, that he's a great role model. He begins to take those steps toward a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, not just himself. What it does, there's a cleaving that happens at this point in the movie because Tony has a partner in the business, Obadiah Stane. Obadiah Stane was his father's partner, his late father's partner as well, and he's a bit of a mentor to Tony, although we don't get a lot of those kinds of scenes that happen. Obadiah is, he's all weapons all the time and doesn't have some of the same moral qualms that Tony develops.




Gary Schneeberger:

As Tony begins to shift and move toward that life of significance, it causes a rift between him and Obadiah that builds a little bit through the movie. One of the things, I mean, one of my takeaways from this moment, it's interesting. You and I were talking about this earlier, and we have different takeaways here. My takeaway on this one is something we talked about in the Second Act Significance series, and that is, when you move from your first act to your second act, there can be this belief sometimes that you have to throw the first act out completely, that nothing that happened in that first act is perhaps worthwhile. You have to erase.




Gary Schneeberger:

The word that we use, though, is pivot. Pivoting is less drastic than erasing. You pivot, you move into something new. That's what Tony does. It's a seismic pivot to be sure, and it causes tensions with Obadiah Stane, but he keeps around things that have been developed in this first act. The thing that he keeps around is what's called the arc reactor. That's this renewable energy source that powers his factory, his plant, and it becomes what he can use to power both the magnet in his heart and then what he ends building in this suit for Iron Man. But you had a little bit of a different takeaway from that pivot moment and the trauma it caused in his relationship especially with Obadiah Stane.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, I think it's a both, and. Basically, he doesn't decide to get out of technology and go make detergent or cookies or whatever or cranes even, or what have you. Something that has nothing to do with technology. I guess cranes can, but he uses that technology like the arc reactor, his vision is to use it for renewable energy. Obviously Obadiah Stane, as we'll see, sees the arc reactor can be a great source of military weaponry. Even with that piece of technology, they have very different, a yin and yang view of what it can do. So he's not throwing away his brilliance, his MIT degree, his genius. He's just channeling his inventiveness in an area that he believes will serve humanity rather than destroy humanity.




Warwick Fairfax:

I think it's ethically and morally a massive pivot, almost an erasure. In terms of the technology and his skills, it's in a sense, the squaring of the circle is it's almost, to a degree, an erasure in terms of a 180 degrees in his morals and ethics from weapons to serving humanity. In terms of his skills and abilities and what's happened, the underlying skills and technology and workers and scientists that are needed is probably not that much different. It's a big pivot in one sense, not such a big pivot in terms of technology and his ability. It's one of those curious things. It is a both and. It's an interesting thing to look at.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. It's a matter of degree when it comes right down to it. He has another key exchange with his assistant, Pepper Potts, who he's secretly in love with her, and she's secretly in love with him, and that will play out over the next several movies in various ways. But he asks her to help him because he learns that Obadiah Stane has been dealing under the table, selling weapons to the folks in the Third Ring perhaps. Just bad actors on the world stage, and he wants her help to stop Obadiah Stane from doing that.




Gary Schneeberger:

She won't do it at first because she's worried that Tony will be killed. When he asks so that I think who she sees is the old Tony. Oh, well, okay, you want to do this, but... In fact, she says at one point, "If you go down this road again," like maybe he has done this some time in the past, "It's not going to turn out well for you." You haven't changed, basically, is what's maybe going on in the back of her head.




Gary Schneeberger:

But he tells her this, which changes her mind and she stays, and this is what he says, and that is the clip that we played at the beginning of this episode. That clip of Pepper and Tony having a conversation, that's what changed her mind that he had changed his spots. That he's a different Tony Stark than he was before. Here just to revisit what was said at the start of the show, he says to her in part, "I shouldn't be alive, unless it was for a reason. I'm not crazy, Pepper. I just finally know what I have to do, and I know in my heart it's right." Tony Stark's crucibles have led him to his purpose.




Gary Schneeberger:

As we've heard from the nearly 100 guests that we've had on this podcast, that is a common experience in the real world, R-E-A-L, and it's the experience here in the reel world, R-E-E-L, for Iron Man.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's so true, Gary. In that cave in Afghanistan is where he found his purpose. In that cave, he realized, I'm this hedonist that's making weapons that are destroying people, including Americans. Ho Yinsen, almost like a biblical prophet, gave up his life for him, spoke truth to him. It became clearer and clearer in subsequent scenes, and he realizes that he knows what he has to do. He knows what's right and what's wrong. He believes making weapons that destroy people is not what he's been called to do. He knows what his purpose is, is to use technology to benefit humankind. I think Pepper begins to realize this is a different guy. She always admired, even I think secretly loved the old Tony. Maybe she saw there was some good in there beneath the exterior. But she realizes, this is a different guy. It's a great scene.




Warwick Fairfax:

There's a scene right around then when Tony has to upgrade his magnetic heart to a new heart that will drive his Iron Man suit, which we'll see here in a bit. So he asks Pepper, "I need some help here. Can you just get the old heart out? And just remember, don't touch the wires to the metal rim of my heart, just like the game Operation." She goes, "Uh, what do you mean?" She's never played that game. It's a funny scene because it's like, oh boy, this is going to be difficult.




Warwick Fairfax:

Anyway, the heart comes out with a few little close calls, and she ends up putting this heart in a glass trophy case. Written around that heart, she's got these words, "Proof that Tony Stark has a heart." She realizes this Tony Stark is different. He does care. He does have a heart. She wouldn't have given that to him pre-cave. "Tony Stark has a heart." He would have probably taken that at the time as just this stab in the heart, like you're mocking me because he wouldn't have thought he does have a heart. Now, I think he really appreciates the gesture. That's really a tangible demonstration on Pepper's part that she sees that Tony Stark is a new man, a new person. It's just a wonderful scene.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. Then the rest of the movie plays out with Tony walking out his path to a life of significance. I love this part because you say all the time, Warwick, about taking small steps. Just take one small step and follow it by another small step, and anybody who's ever watched any Iron Man movie knows that Tony Stark is a prolific tinkerer. He takes lots of small steps when it comes to improving his armor. This is the first set of real armor that he builds to go out on missions. He spends a lot of time taking small steps to perfect his suit of armor then uses it to defeat the Ten Rings, the bad guys in Afghanistan, and then to defeat Obadiah Stane, who has stolen some of the technology, the arc reactor, and built his own armor, and Tony defeats him.




Gary Schneeberger:

Tony finds out, actually Pepper finds out and tells Tony, that it was Stane who actually not only wanted to take the company over, but ordered the hit on Tony by the Ten Rings. The attack that happened at the start of the movie was ordered and paid for by Obadiah Stane. It's an interesting point, I had never thought about it before. Tony is not as devastated as you might expect when someone who's close to you like that is the one who betrays you so viciously.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the beats of the reason why maybe that it's metaphorically wrapped in the fact of how Tony survived his attack, a magnet to keep shrapnel from entering his heart. He learns in Afghanistan when Ho Yinsen saves him and back in the US as he leverages the power of the arc reactor to build a better magnet the importance of guarding your heart. The importance of guarding his heart. That mindfulness keeps him alive when the shrapnel of betrayal threatens him too. That's one way to look at it. I know you have another shading of why maybe Obadiah's terrible, terrible actions don't hurt him quite so much.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I mean, he does guard his heart. The thing about Tony Stark is he may have been a hedonist, self-serving, self-centered, maybe even narcissistic person, but he is a genius. So I don't know that he'd care, but I think he fully realized that Obadiah Stane was all in about the weapons and killing people and didn't really care much about anything else. Was he shocked that he betrayed him? Yes. The fact that he was betrayed because Obadiah wanted to make sure we're all in as a company for weapons sales? That part wouldn't have surprised him.




Warwick Fairfax:

But one of the interesting things about these two characters, and often in great movies you have good versus evil, and so you've got a classic battle here in which Obadiah sees technology as ways of making money and killing people and making weapons. It's all about power and money. It's not personal. Of course, it is personal when you kill people, but Obadiah doesn't see it that way. He sees the arc reactor as, hey, we can make lots of Iron Man suits and kill lots of people. What great technology. Tony is thinking, well, this is, we're going to use this to save people.




Warwick Fairfax:

In some really paradox and irony of fate, as I reflected on the movie, in a sense, Obadiah is significantly responsible for Tony Stark becoming the man he does by the end of the movie, a man of character. Because Obadiah is the one that sets him up to be captured by the Ten Rings in Afghanistan. Sometimes bad people overreach. If you just left Tony as this hedonist, then Obadiah could have run the company and made millions or billions of dollars and would have been just fine. But for some reason, he wanted more power, and he didn't have enough power. We don't know, we're only guessing at the back story, and says, it's not enough for me to totally control the company. I want this Stark kid out of the way. Basically, he thought he was going to be killed was the goal.




Warwick Fairfax:

If Obadiah Stane hadn't overreached, maybe Tony never would have become more of the good guy or at least on a path to living a life of significance, caring about people. Obadiah represents the evil archetype, the bad, and Tony more of the good, and as sometimes happens, the bad guy overreaches and ends up transforming Tony Stark. It's a fascinating backstory there. I'm sure maybe in hindsight, Obadiah maybe thinks, "Did I really need to do that?" He's probably not self-aware to realize his own cataclysmic mistake of setting up Tony Stark. It's a fascinating relationship.




Gary Schneeberger:

Now, as we said at the outset there, Iron Man is the character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe who shows up in more movies than anybody, in nine different movies. There are a lot of beats to his story of this arc that we've talked about, this arc from only success to significance. Still has success, but also has significance. Living a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. We're just going to touch on a few of them.




Gary Schneeberger:

In the first Avengers movie, for instance, he has an exchange with Captain America. If you remember, listener, from our episode on Captain America a few weeks back, the real superpower of Steve Rodgers, Captain America, is his character. Yes, he has a super solider serum that gives him extraordinary strength and agility, but it's his just grounded character. Clearly then, when he meets Iron Man, who's got a little bit more flash to him, there's some tension there. At one point in the first Avengers movies, Captain America says, "The only thing you really fight for, Stark, is yourself." You can tell it stings. It leaves a mark on Tony because he looks at someone, now that he's walking more in integrity, now that he's walking more outside of the flash and the emptiness, he sees the character all over Captain America. To be told that by someone like that wounds him.




Gary Schneeberger:

The two heroes are also at odds in the movie Captain America: Civil War. In fact, the civil war being described is between Team Captain America and Team Iron Man. The disagreement there is whether the government should have oversight powers over the Avengers, over the heroes. Tony, Iron Man, believes that the government should. His reasoning, he's learned the lessons of his crucible. He's seen what unchecked power, his weapons distribution, especially when Stane is selling them to bad actors, he realizes the danger that presents to the world, so he's okay with government supervision. Whereas Cap, who saw government gone awry in World War II with the Nazis, Cap's like, whoa, we can't have that. That's what leads to them being at loggerheads. That's the fascinating point.




Gary Schneeberger:

The whole Captain America, Iron Man relationship throughout their... And both of them have left the Marvel Cinematic Universe. No spoilers here. That, really, we talk a lot about having a team of fellow travelers. I think the Avengers, as a superpower team of fellow travelers, where they make each other better. I don't think any two characters make each other better more than Iron Man and Captain America. They become a little bit more like each other. Iron Man picks up some of Cap's character, learns some things like that, and Captain America learns to kind of loosen up a little bit and open his heart perhaps more on his sleeve more than he had before. Is that a fair observation?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean, having colleagues like this where they're both superheroes. Yes, there's some difficulties, but they respect each other. I think one of the things that Captain America really points out when he says to Tony Stark, Iron Man, "The only thing you really fight for is yourself," is that even though Tony Stark has progressed in his character from hedonist playboy to somebody that really is trying to make the world a better place and shift Stark Industries from weapons to technology that will serve humanity, the old man, the old woman sometimes takes a while to die, if you will. So you don't totally eradicate the old person.




Warwick Fairfax:

Are there times in which Tony reverts to, hey, it's all about me? Probably. I think that's what, again, almost as a biblical prophet role, Captain America is pointing out. One would hope that Tony Stark realizes, yeah, I thought I licked that one, I guess not yet. When you've got that kind of personality tendency, it helps to have other people telling you the truth and fighting for you with you, but also, just like Ho Yinsen earlier, Captain America's telling hard truths. So really, as we go forth in life, even when we think we're in a pretty good place, you still need those fellow travelers, those truth tellers to tell us things that we don't want to hear.




Warwick Fairfax:

Because from my faith perspective, we're fallen people. We're prone to stray. Don't think just because you think you have licked it that you won't stray again. We're all human, and so we need people like Captain America in our lives, not so much because he's a superhero, because of his character and his ability to tell truth in love. It's just a great lesson that we learned from that relationship between those two characters.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yes. And as a Marvel Cinematic Universe geek, hello, I do have the Iron Man action figure here during this whole episode, I can't resist that this is a case not of iron sharpening iron. It's iron sharpening vibranium. Iron Man's got a suit of iron, and vibranium is what Captain America's shield is made out of. Their relationship is definitely iron sharpening vibranium or vibranium sharpening iron at the same time.




Gary Schneeberger:

Another beat in another movie, in Avengers: Age of Ultron, Tony creates what he describes as a suit of armor around the world. He brings his genius to bear on trying to protect America, his motives are good, he wants to build a suit of armor around the world. But it goes terribly wrong, and it leads to the robot he created developing sentience and it plots the destruction of the world. He's wracked with guilt over his efforts there.




Gary Schneeberger:

But on a positive note, as we move through these other movies, his relationship with Pepper finally develops into love and eventually marriage. By Avengers: Endgame, in fact, they have a daughter. For me, that's a very beautiful part because Tony is no longer the man who has everything, but no one. It changes him.




Gary Schneeberger:

Also what changes him and makes him, because he's gone through these other developments, by the time we get to the introduction of Spider-Man to the Avengers in the latest iteration of Tom Holland playing the character, that when the high school hero joins the Avengers, Thanos, this cosmic villain, wipes out half of the world's population with a snap of his fingers after he gathers these powerful things from all corners of the universe called the Infinity Stones. That happens in Avengers: Infinity War where he does the snap, and Spider-Man's one of the people who is vanished. It devastates Tony. It's a crucible that leaves him depressed, unsure.




Gary Schneeberger:

As we sometimes say on the show, Tony Stark sort of, figuratively at least, stays in bed with his head under the covers. He has given up. He gives up the hero game. As other Avengers are looking to try to find a way to undo what Thanos has done, Tony's living with his family off the grid, and he's not involved anymore. You said earlier when we were talking about this, that's kind of the wrong decision to make. We say that all the time. That's the wrong decision, to live with your head under the covers. Tony has taken his life of significance, he's put a pin in it himself by doing that.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I mean we'll see later, he pivots a bit. It's easy to be depressed when terrible things happen. You've got to find a way out of it, but I like how his character grows. The old Tony was incapable of having a serious relationship, a serious relationship with a woman. It was just one night stands. Pepper Potts is clearly a highly intelligent, highly capable person who, as much as she really likes and admires part of Tony, is not going to put up with that kind of thing and won't be... She's too smart to be in a serious relationship with the old Tony.




Warwick Fairfax:

So the fact that, as we can see in later Iron Man iterations, that there's love and marriage and then a child, it shows that he has developed enough that he is capable of loving another person other than himself. Pepper Potts realizes he is because if he wasn't the person that he became, there's no way Pepper Potts would have married him. No way she would have put up with it. That's really a clear marker, affirmation from Pepper, if you will, that he has evolved. Not perfect, but evolved to a point where he is capable of loving another human being other than himself. It is a great moment.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. That leads us to the final beat really with Iron Man, and that's in the final Avengers film, Avengers: Endgame. The Avengers get Tony back. He rejoins the team. He reconsiders. Tony rejoins the team to help them reverse Thanos's snap that wiped out half the globe. The Avengers use time travel to gather the infinity stones for themselves and reverse the snap with a snap of their own. Iron Man, always the tech tinkerer, always the... He builds a gauntlet that's capable of holding all the stones and snapping again to bring back all those who were lost.




Gary Schneeberger:

Just in case, this is a good time... This would be a good time to watch on YouTube, if you're not on YouTube, but we'll also probably make a clip of this. He builds a gauntlet, and here is the gauntlet with all the infinity stones in it. It drives my dog crazy. Sorry, but there it is. Iron Man's infinity gauntlet. Right there, he snaps his fingers with this thing on. These are the infinity stones right there. That is what reverses Thanos's snap and brings back the half of folks who were wiped out all across not just the globe here, but the universe.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of those it brings back is Spider-Man, is Peter Parker, who has developed a very, if you remember our conversation, listener, about Spider-Man, he lost his parents when he was young. He lost his uncle Ben as well. He's a bit of an orphan, raised by surrogate parents for sure, but having a father figure like Tony Stark... I mean, just listen to that sentence based on what we started talking about almost an hour ago. Tony Stark is a father figure. Tony does the snap, but it leaves him gravely ill. Spider-Man does come back and gets to say goodbye to Tony Stark as he lay dying. It's a beautiful moment.




Gary Schneeberger:

To see the guy who started out as everything to live with but nothing to live for, had everything but no one, now he's got a daughter at home, now he's got this surrogate son who is devastated by the fact, even as Tony Stark saved his life by snapping that gauntlet. Spider-Man is devastated by the loss of Iron Man. It's really, really a moving scene and a fabulous ending to this arc of we talk about living a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Tony Stark does it, and it costs him his life, and he's okay with that. It's amazing from who we met at the start of this film.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's a great point, Gary. Tony Stark has gone from this hedonistic, self-serving playboy to somebody that's willing to give up his life to literally save humanity. The ultimate sacrifice to bring back his friends. You know you've achieved something if, as you're dying, there are people like Spider-Man, and obviously I'm sure Pepper Potts, who deeply grieve you. It's a sad day is if you lie dying, people are thinking, "So what? Good riddance. Who cares?" You don't want to be that person. It is possible to be that person that people think... Maybe not that extreme, but it's like, well, it's sad, but oh well. You don't want oh well to be people's reactions. Things happen.




Warwick Fairfax:

Spider-Man's devastated, and really, going back to the very beginning of the movie with Ho Yinsen, Ho Yinsen sacrifices his life so that Tony Stark could live. Obviously wasn't Tony's intention to model that, but in a sense, he modeled his first mentor in Ho Yinsen by giving up his life the way Ho Yinsen did for him. It's a beautiful... Death can be beautiful, which it's not really, but it's a beautiful moment in that sense of modeling what was done for him and being the person who leaves a legacy.




Gary Schneeberger:

What did Ho Yinsen say to him before he died? "Don't waste your life." What does a not wasted life look like? It's mourned by a lot of people. There's a beautiful scene toward the end of Avengers: Endgame, which is Tony Stark's funeral, and no one really talks or says much of anything, but what we see is every superhero who is still living in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, who'd appeared in any movie in that universe, shows up for his funeral. The camera pans through every one of them. Some of them haven't been seen but maybe once in an earlier film. It's this never ending pan shot of all of these characters who are mourning the death of Tony Stark.




Gary Schneeberger:

Here's how beautiful it is, and he won't kill me for saying this because he's a sensitive kid. My nephew, I watched Endgame with my family, and my nephew was one of them, and he actually wept during that funeral scene because it was so touching to see the way that Tony Stark was remembered. That was his legacy. Everybody he ever encountered, even when the encounters sometimes weren't great, as you said, sometimes you can backslide in your character, everybody showed up and everybody celebrated who he turned out to be. It was a great ending.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's not just you and I who think that was a great ending. Robert Downey Jr., who surprisingly whose name we have not mentioned in this entire episode yet. Robert Downey Jr., the very excellent actor who played Tony Stark and Iron Man through every one of those nine movies he appeared in in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, was asked after Iron Man passed away, he was asked after his arc was over, after Robert Downey Jr.'s arc as the actor playing Iron Man was over and after Iron Man's arc as a character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe was over, the press asked him to reflect on it. This is an exact quote that Robert Downey Jr. gave about how he viewed the arc of Tony Stark and Iron Man. Keep in mind, this is being read right now on a podcast called Beyond the Crucible. Here's what he said: "For me, the end of this run with Marvel is a complete 180. It started off with someone who was absolutely self-centered, has more money than he can ever spend, is spiritually dead, and has no idea that they're about to go through a crucible that is going to put them into a position to be of service to their community."




Gary Schneeberger:

When I saw that quote, Warwick, when I found that quote, I found it in a book about what we can learn from superheros to apply to our life in a spiritual sense, the book was written. When I read that quote, I couldn't... My mouth was agape. I could not believe that that language, coming from Robert Downey Jr., is exactly the kind of thing we talk about on this show and have for more than 120 episodes. It's absolutely remarkable to me.




Warwick Fairfax:

It really is, Gary. Robert Downey Jr., he gets it, at least in this quote certainly, that here you have the arc of this character as much as... It's probably a bigger arc than any superhero we've covered so far of going from a self-centered, hedonistic, narcissistic person, and as he rightly says, spiritually dead, to going through a crucible where he does serve his community, he does serve humanity. He becomes somebody that cares about other people, is capable of having a serious relationship, both with friends, fellow travelers, like Captain America and other superheros, as well as Pepper Potts, who becomes his wife and he has a child with.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's just an amazing arc of his character that he goes through, and I guess as we reflect on this, we all have a choice in life, and I guess one thought would be is, who do you want to be? Do you want to be Tony Stark, the successful, wealthy, hedonist person that has no purpose, no roots, no core? Or the Tony Stark that still has success, he's not poverty-stricken. He still has money. Money's not wrong per se, but he has significance. He has purpose, and he's loved by his teammates, his fellow superheroes. He's loved by Pepper, and I'm sure he's loved by his child, their daughter. Which Tony do you want to be?




Warwick Fairfax:

We all get to make a choice in life. We get to make that choice of which Tony Stark we want to be. We won't all have a lot of money. That's not always up to us to choose, but we can choose our legacy. We can choose our character. Those are choices we can make and we are responsible for. It's such a great quote, and Iron Man is just such a great character, not just because of the technology, but the arc that his character goes through. People like Captain America and Pepper Potts and Ho Yinsen, all these people that really help him in his journey. It's just an amazing story.




Gary Schneeberger:

That, Warwick, was a super heroic way to wrap up this episode. I don't have to say anything more. I was going to go into, here's some reflection points, but you just gave the best reflection point there is. Which Tony Stark do you want to be? Who do you want to model your life after? Not that we want to model our life after superheros all the time, but do you want to be someone who has everything but nothing, as well? Or do you want to have both? Do you want to have everything that really matters? That's where it ends up for Iron Man in the arc of all the films he appears in in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. His legacy is all those people attending his funeral when he is laid to rest.




Gary Schneeberger:

As we lay this episode of Beyond the Crucible to rest, listener, thank you for spending time with us in this second to last episode. I'm sad that it's going to end. I want to extend it farther. The second to last episode of Lights, Camera, Crucible is about what we can learn from movie heroes about overcoming setbacks and failures. Next week, if you want to prepare for our conversation, we're going to finish up with not a superhero, but a sports hero in the movie Hoosiers, which is a fantastic, inspirational movie about a small town Indiana basketball team that decimates the odds against them and goes on to great success. The coach finds some great significance. That's next week's episode.




Gary Schneeberger:

Until we get there, until that time arrives, listener, please know that we understand that your crucible experiences are difficult. We understand that they're painful. But we also understand through our own experiences and the experiences of those we've interviewed on this show and what we just unpacked about Tony Stark and Iron Man, that if you learn the lessons of your crucibles, if you apply them to your life moving forward, it's not the end of your story by far. It's the beginning of a new chapter in your story that can lead you to the best destination possible, and that destination is a life of significance.

In the latest episode of our special summer series, we focus on four big take-aways from the movie that made Bruce Willis a superstar that can help you move beyond setbacks and failures. Even if you haven’t been trapped in a skyscraper seized by international terrorists, there is much to learn here about triumphing over whatever challenges you have faced. Just two of the points we’ll touch on: why it’s critical to lean into your sense of humor even when what’s happening to you isn’t funny … and why you’ll need some fellow travelers to take the journey to a life of significance with you.

Highlights

Why Die Hard is a helpful movie to learn how to overcome crucibles (3:15)
Bruce Willis’ hope for the character of John McClane (6:41)
Big learning 1: Crucibles often come in bunches (13:08)
Big learning 2: Keep your sense of humor (28:42)
How a 72-year-old Frank Sinatra almost become John McClane (32:53)
Big learning 3: You need a team of fellow travelers (38:58)
Big learning 4: Success is great, but significance is greater (54:56)
Points for reflection (1:05:26)

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax the founder of Crucible Leadership.




John McClane:
Al, yo pal, you got a minute?




Al Powell:
I'm here, John.




John McClane:

Listen, man, I'm starting to get a bad feeling up here. I want you to do something for me, I want you to find my wife. Don't ask me how by then you'll know how. I want you to tell her something. I want you to tell her that, tell her that it took me a while to figure out what a jerk I've been but... That when things started to pan out for her, I should have been more supportive. And I just should have been behind her more. Tell her that she's the best thing that ever happened to a bum like me. She's heard me saying "I love you" a thousand times. She never heard me say, "I'm sorry." I want you to tell her that, Al, I want you to tell her that "John said that he was sorry." Okay. You got that, man?




Al Powell:

Yeah. I got it, John. But you can tell her that yourself. You just watch your ass, and you'll make it out of there. Do you hear me?




John McClane:
Al, I guess that's up to the man upstairs.




Gary Schneeberger:

That scene you just heard is one of the quietest you'll find in the movie Die Hard, which is usually celebrated for its explosive action. But as rousing as that is, it's not what Warwick and I are going to be focusing on this week. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. We're going to spend our time talking about the film that propelled Bruce Willis into rarefied box office air by focusing on four big takeaways to help you move beyond your setbacks and failures. That's why we've chosen Die Hard as episode six of our summer series LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES. Because even if you haven't been trapped in a skyscraper seized by international terrorists, there is much to learn here about moving beyond whatever challenges you have faced. Just two of the points we'll touch on, why it's critical to lean into your sense of humor even when what's happening to you isn't funny. And why you'll need some fellow travelers to take the journey to a life of significance with you.




Gary Schneeberger:

Warwick, it's funny, I think I misspoke last week. Last week when we did the Spider-Man episode I said that Spider-Man might be the hero whose life is perhaps most packed with crucibles. And then I watched Die Hard again in the Crucible Leadership, Beyond the Crucible context and was like, "Oh okay." John McClane, Bruce Willis's character in Die Hard the New York cop he plays, he gets crucible, after crucible, after crucible, after crucible. It's like when people use those tennis machines that throw balls at you so he can learn how to hit your ground stroke. Right? That's what happens to John McClane in this movie. And he, I think, endures more crucibles than any hero we've discussed so far. And the lessons we can learn from them may be among the most helpful and practical that we've covered so far in the situations that we'll find ourselves in.




Gary Schneeberger:

Disclaimer: I'm not saying we're not saying that the situations that you're going to find yourself in are going to be life-threatening situations where terrorists, thieves, burglars, robbers are trying to steal bearer bonds out of a high rise. That's not what we're talking about. You're not likely to find yourself in that situation, thankfully. But you will find yourself in situations where some of the tips that come out in this film will be helpful. This morning when we were talking about this before we pressed record, Warwick, you indicated that you were like, "Oh, Die Hard. Maybe there's not..." And then you watched it and you're like, "Oh my gosh. That's good. And that's good. And that's good." So, you had that experience yourself of there are very good actionable steps out of this movie.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. Typically, when you watch a movie, you watch it to be entertained, whether it's Spider-man or Die Hard, or Robin Hood. You're not thinking, "Gee, what are the leadership lessons in this movie? What are the crucible lessons? How can I bounce back from my worst day?" And so, it's a great action movie, like all of us I've seen it many times but having watched it last night just to prepare for today's podcast, it's like, "There actually are a lot of lessons." But you don't think about it when you're watching it just for entertainment as most of us do. So that's partly why we're here to help you look at these movies, and in this case, Die Hard, through a different lens a Crucible Leadership lens.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And this is, as, with all the films that we're talking about, listener, in this series, these are movies that Warwick and I have liked even before we talked about them here. These are things that have been on our... I've probably seen Die Hard, I'm not making this up, 50 times in my life. In fact, major dork alert, here's my wallet, okay? I'm about to show you one of the things I keep in my wallet is John McClane's ID Card from the New York Police Department. This is how big a fan I am of Die Hard. I carry around John McClane's ID as seen in the movie. He's badge number 881. And he joined the department on March 17th, 1980, just in case you were wondering. So, this is one of the reasons why we talk about these movies, and we revisit them because we've always liked them. And then we watched them and these resonant truths about moving beyond your crucible are what we're trying to unpack here.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, and one of the things that's very cool about this is that Bruce Willis wanted to make sure, even though this is about what movie heroes can teach us about overcoming setbacks and failure, Bruce Willis the actor who played John McClane, it was just his second movie role. He was a big hit on the TV show Moonlighting. He was a goofy romantic lead, a comedic lead. People weren't sure he was the right guy to do this movie, but the rest is box office history. This movie fueled his box office career for 30-plus years. But when he got the role, he wanted to make sure he did not play John McClane as a superhero. Somebody who was indestructible, somebody audiences couldn't identify with. Here's how he describes the character he in part and also the authors of this book right here, look at the size of this thing. This is Die Hard: A Visual History, an enormous book with lots of great facts about the film.




Gary Schneeberger:

But this is what they say about John McClane as played by Bruce Willis in the movie. "If McClane was instantly relatable, Willis made him more so." So not just on the page but the way Bruce Willis brought him to life made him more relatable. The former New Jersey bartender brought his own rough hue and appeal to the part, here's Bruce Willis talking about it. "Die Hard is probably the closest I've ever come to showing what's in my head on screen." He said, "I really wanted to play a vulnerable guy. I didn't want to be a superhero. I didn't want to be one of those larger-than-life kind of guys no one really knows. It's about an ordinary guy thrown into extraordinary circumstances." That's Bruce Willis' assessment of Die Hard in this book. Pretty accurate, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

It really is. He's just an ordinary New York cop that, as we'll see, is out in LA to see his family. And he has no idea this is going to happen. He's not signing up for some secret mission. He's just a guy who wants to see his family. And so just that sense of an ordinary guy thrown into extraordinary circumstance. Ironically, and this is where it's important to just bear this in mind as we talk through this episode, a lot of the greatest well, not a lot but some of the greatest leaders in history are quote-unquote ordinary guys. And you'll hear this a lot on Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible. I think of Abraham Lincoln he was pretty much an ordinary guy from backwoods of then, Illinois had a country lawyer at one point he would go on the circuit, so to speak. From town to town because back then they didn't have lawyers all over the place and so they would go judge, prosecutor, defender, and adjudicate these cases. He wasn't this large than life hero. But when he became President with the Civil War about to begin, he was indeed an ordinary guy thrown into extraordinary circumstances.




Warwick Fairfax:

If it hadn't been for the times maybe, we would never have heard of Abraham Lincoln. So, this is more common than you think about it. And just that notion of an ordinary guy thrown into extraordinary circumstances, there are some powerful lessons. Maybe we won't be thrown into these kind of circumstances but many of us might think we're just ordinary men and women but what do you do if you're in extraordinary times? And maybe it's not this particular circumstance but it's often the case that you'll find yourself in challenging circumstances. So, what do you do, an ordinary man or woman thrown into challenging circumstances? And there are lessons here.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And the authors of Die Hard: The Ultimate Visual History went on to say about John McClane, exactly to your point, "McClane is the ultimate underdog engaged in a one-man war of attrition against a group of criminals. He lives from moment to moment existing on his wits and adapting to his surroundings. He doesn't have gadgets like James Bond. He makes do with makeshift bombs and duct tape. And he even uses a fire hose to pull off one of the greatest escapes in cinematic history." And that from your point to Lincoln to these points here about John McClane it's a great thought to keep in mind as we begin pressing forward on some of the lessons in this movie.




Gary Schneeberger:

John McClane isn't just an everyman, he's an every hero he offers us all great hope that no scrape we find ourselves in is insurmountable. If John McClane can get through it, we can get through it. Different circumstances, we say it all the time on the show, right? The circumstances of your crucible may be different but the emotions you go through as you're going through it are the same. We'll find that to be true as we walk through Die Hard and John McClane's journey there.




Warwick Fairfax:

I want to dwell a bit on what you just said, Gary. I think it's just so important for listeners to think about it. You mentioned that he is an every hero, if you will. What's interesting is you rightly point out is he doesn't have super gadgets like James Bond. He doesn't have super superhuman powers like Spider- Man or some of the other superheroes that we're familiar with. Yes, we'll see he's a New York cop but it's just more his ability to think through challenging circumstances. So, he doesn't achieve success by the use of superpowers, who of us have superpowers? I mean none of us. It's more just his attitude, his character the way he thinks about things, his spirit.




Gary Schneeberger:
And the R-word, and the R-word, his resilience.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. Exactly. So, I think as much as really any hero that we've spoken about, there are lessons that are very relatable because there isn't like, "Oh well, I didn't get pumped with green fluid or wherever it was like Captain America." And "Gee, if I was Captain America of course..." And that greatly simplifies the plot of the story and his character but it's easy to dismiss somebody like Captain America and say, "Oh, that's not me." John McClane, in a sense, could be any of us. That's why it's so relatable. So yeah, it's really an excellent story to explore.




Gary Schneeberger:

Absolutely. And then there are four big takeaways that we're going to talk about. And the first one is this, crucibles often come in bunches. Does that resonate with you, listener? It's not just one crucible, crucibles often come in bunches. And even though weariness can set in, keep taking one small step toward making your vision a reality. That is what we speak about here at Beyond the Crucible. What Warwick speaks about in his book Crucible Leadership. And certainly, what John McClane lives out on the screen in Die Hard.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's one point about that, a little bit humor for listeners. When you talk about crucibles come in bunches. I often talk about the gift that keeps on giving. I've had times in my life when it's like, whether it's a person, an individual it might be, "Hey, I just forgave them for the last thing. I mean, can I have a nanosecond to recover before the next incident? I can't keep up in my level of forgiveness." Or "I just dealt with that crucible. I mean are you serious?" So humorously, to myself, call it the gift that keeps on giving. It's like, "Can I get a break, please?" And so yes, indeed as we'll see with John McClane, he has many gifts that keep on coming, a lot of crucibles, it's unbelievable.




Gary Schneeberger:

Because we're talking about movies it makes perfect sense that you just said something about humorously. Because that's like a teaser coming attraction to one of the things that we're going to talk about. So, let's just level set who John McClane is. John McClane is a New York cop who's visiting Los Angeles to see his estranged wife, Holly, and their two young children for the holidays. That's crucible number one for John McClane, a troubled family life. But he hasn't even dipped his toe in the waters of how many crucibles he's going to end up with. He's going to get a tsunami of crucibles by the time the two hours and 15 minutes of this movie is over. He arrives at Nakatomi Plaza on Christmas Eve for Nakatomi Corporation's company party. He's dropped off by his chatty limo driver named Argyle, who agrees to hang around in case the family reunion doesn't go so well.




Gary Schneeberger:

It doesn't go so well. Seeing Holly again is not all hugs and kisses and I've missed you for the McClanes. They squabble about why she's now using her maiden name, Gennaro. And that's the last time they'll talk to each other until the end of the picture because of all of these crucibles that are going to come and hit him. Let's just start unpacking some of those or just listing some of those because we could do an entire episode if all we did was just like read from the phone book and list all the crucibles, right? It begins with Hans Gruber and his henchman arriving at Nakatomi Plaza, kill the security guards, and cut off all communications, then kidnap and terrorize the party guests including Holly, all while John is still in the bathroom cleaning up after his flight from New York to the Los Angeles.




Gary Schneeberger:

When he hears the gunshots, he's barefoot. Okay. That'll turn into a bad crucible, the reason these barefoot is the guy who sits next to him on the plane tells him, "If you're a nervous flyer" and John is, "the secret to surviving air travel is to make fists with your toes. Take off your shoes when you get where you're going, walk around and make fists with your toes." John takes him up on that advice which is why he spends the entire movie without shoes. I will pause here to say I won't make anybody see it, but I will pause here to say that in more than 200 episodes of the show I am not wearing shoes for this one, in honor of John McClane.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, I hope you haven't gone full John McClane because there are times we'll see him in which is walking through the glass. I hope you haven't quite gone that far.




Gary Schneeberger: No.




Warwick Fairfax: Which is good.




Gary Schneeberger:
I don't even like to walk through pebbles without shoes on. So, I am just sitting here at the desk.




Warwick Fairfax:

I think there is one small lesson that we can learn just this early in the movie. If you're sitting next to somebody on a plane and they give you some hair-brained advice, don't listen to it. It will come back to bite him. I mean, advice is good but not everybody you sit next to will have earth-shattering advice that will help you for the good. In this case, he listens to the wrong advice, as we often say, listen to the right advisors, not the bad ones. He listens to a bad advisor, and he'll have no shoes for the whole movie that will come back to bite him in major ways. So, there you go. Don't listen to people who are sitting next to you on the airplane.




Gary Schneeberger:

There you go. And then after that, right, after he runs out with his gun with no shoes on when he hears the gunshots the crucibles then come even more fast and even more furious, not to mix up movie series, but they come fast and furious after that all rooted in him trying to stay alive. In John McClane trying to stay alive and free the hostages that Hans Gruber as men have taken, to make it appear that they want something other than all the money that's in the vault there at the Nakatomi Corporation. They're after bearer bonds negotiable bearer bonds and millions and millions of them, 600 million, I believe, is what it is at the end. So, the movie then plays out with the terrorists hunting him down, and every little victory that John McClane wins as you watch this movie, he'll win a victory, he'll take out a terrorist. He'll find his way to go to another place in this big building that's under construction in order to think about what might come next. But every time he wins a little victory he will then run headlong into another defeat. And he can't seem to extricate himself throughout the film from the corners he gets backed into and the tight spaces he winds up in as he tries to escape.




Gary Schneeberger:

And we could talk about these all day. One of them that hits me is that he's trying to use his police acumen to get the cops to show up and realize what's going on. So, he pulls a fire alarm, right? But what happens? The terrorists have taken out communications. They call into the fire department and say, "Oops. That's a false alarm." So, John McClane's watching these hook and ladders come in and he's like, "Yeah. Come on, come on, come on." And then they turn around and go away. And he's foiled, crucible. But there are a lot of those kinds of things that happen. Right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I know one that we talked about, you mentioned, right after that is he uses this handheld radio, CB radios to try to get somebody. And the police emergency channel says, "It's a federal crime to be using these. If you have a problem call 911." Well, he can't call 911 because the bad guy had disconnected all the phones. And so, it's very comical in some ways but he runs through crucible after crucible, crisis after crisis. And he sees the fire engines from, he's probably on the 20th, 30th floor, that he sees him coming towards the building and the bad guys turn them around and pretend to be good guys and say, "Everything's okay."




Warwick Fairfax:

And it's just no matter what he does for a good part of the movie, people just turn back and he's like, "Are you kidding me? What are you doing?" But he's frustrated, very frustrated but as we'll see it doesn't stop him. But it's comical. But for most of us, it's like, "What do I have to do to get help here?" I mean, oh my gosh he's frustrated. But yet, as we'll see, there are some lessons we can learn from him.




Gary Schneeberger:

And here's one of the big ones, I think, of what we've just been talking about, about his frustration and continuing to hit brick walls as he's trying to move forward and get beyond. I mean, he solves one crucible and then he gets hit in the face with another one. The relevant point to apply here I think is, and hopefully most of our crucibles are less chaotic and life-threatening, but here's a key truth that you can apply. Don't give up, don't try to jump to the end, take one small step followed by another small step, tackling the challenge right in front of you before moving on to the one behind that. String together enough of these little victories and you wind up with the big one you're aiming at. That, even if you're not stuck in a building that's being held up by terrorists in really, really nice suits, that's good advice for how to get through a crucible, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. I mean so often we think whether it's World War II or whatever it is, "Gee, how are we going to defeat Nazi Germany? It's all hopeless." Okay. Well, one step at a time. Maybe how do we try to with radar in England, the UK how do we use that to survive one more day of bombing by the Luftwaffe? Shoot enough of their planes down to make some small victory. You're not thinking about the whole, big war. You're thinking about, "How do I survive today?" And that's exactly what John McClane does, he just takes one small step. And the other thing I think is fascinating is he doesn't, as you rightly say, he doesn't try to jump to the end. So, what he could do is confront all the terrorists at once. At one point he gets a machine gun, several times he gets a machine gun from the bad guys and just takes them all on.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, the chances of victory it's a million to one he would lose as would all of the hostages. So, he tries guerilla tactics. Again, another historical reference I think of, I think of the American Revolution if George Washington with his rag-tag group of soldiers that, not all of them had terrific training, a lot of them were just farmers. If he took on the might of the British Army in one head-on onslaught certainly at the beginning of that war, he would've lost. He realized victory is surviving, using guerilla tactics and the British couldn't defeat him because they found it difficult to engage. Well, eventually he won. So, there would be no United States if George Washington hadn't had the sense to have this idea of guerilla tactics, and just how do I survive? How do I take one small step? It worked for Britain in World War II. It worked for the American colonies, and it worked for John McClane. So, strategies to live by.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And it's important to note as you talk about overwhelming power on the other side, I mean these terrorists show up, right, with a dozen guys and McClane just starts clipping them off one at a time. And he keeps track, he's got a sharpie and he marks down how many people he's taken out and that's one of the ways that he... He doesn't, exactly as you said, he doesn't try to go confront them all down where they're holding everybody hostage. He's working on the fringes trying to whittle away their numbers until he can then find that opportunity to be successful. I do want to go back to the guy on the plane who gave him the advice about the make fist with your toes. Because while that turns out not to be a great idea when terrorists overtake the building, you're in and you're barefoot, what he's really saying there, there's a principle there I think that's that can be beneficial to us and that's this.




Gary Schneeberger:

It doesn't have to be make fists with your toes, maybe it will be. But the idea behind that is breathe, relax, disengage from the thing that is causing you stress. For John McClane that was flying. Disengage from that thing that stress and anxiety and focus on something else that will take your mind off it and relax your body. And I want to give another quick example from my own life about this sort of thing. I've talked on the show before, when I was in AA, my sponsor would tell me in the early days of my sobriety, "When you find yourself in this place where you're thinking about drinking again and that urge is growing in you," he said, "Go outside and look for ladybugs." Now here's his point, his point wasn't, you're going to find ladybugs, because they're awfully hard to find. His point was if you're out in the field looking for ladybugs and they're really hard to find, your mind and your body are going to be engaged in something other than that obsession that you have at the moment of, "I need to have a drink." You're going to redirect your energy and attention into something that's more profitable for you.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I think that's what "make fists with your toes" can be beneficial to us. This idea of whether we do that or not, when in the midst of a crucible, if you can find something to take your mind off of just staring and focusing on the problem and giving yourself some relief from obsessing about that problem it will help you solve that problem. That's a pretty fair statement that has proven true through a lot of guests, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's an incredibly good point, Gary, when you're going through a crucible or often a series of crucibles because they can come in series, you've got to keep your wits about you. You've got to keep calm and it's not easy to do that because imagine John McClane if he's panicking and going, "Oh my gosh. There are terrorists. My wife's been captured by the terrorists. They're killing people. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Let me run around like a crazy man and say stop it, stop it, don't do this." Or whatever. He wouldn't be able to think clearly. And he would lose. And the terrorists, the bad guys, would win. And so, he does it through a number of means but just the idea of just relax, take a breath. Because if you think about it, will panicking serve you? Is that going to help you make a good next wise decision? It actually will pretty much ensure that you'll make a cataclysmically bad decision.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so it could be by meditation, it could be by prayer. I'm in Northern Michigan as it happens, during the summer. And just taking a walk in nature in the woods, I find incredibly relaxing. Maybe it's listening to your favorite music, but whatever it is find ways to relax yourself, to center yourself, to calm yourself. Even when you think, "How can I be calm when the world is falling apart? Look what's happening to my loved ones. How in the world can I be calm?" But if you really care about other people that you're trying to care for if you care about the crucibles you're trying to challenge, you've got to find a way to keep calm keep centered, and relaxed. So, all joking aside, the metaphor of this of relax and ball your toes on the carpet just to relax yourself, the metaphor is important. Find ways to relax and disengage. It's critical to be able to make good decisions as you try to get through your crucible or crucibles.




Gary Schneeberger:

Absolutely. And point 2 as we move on for what John McClane does. John McClane does this so well in Die Hard that it changed action movies forever in the '80s, this movie came out in 1988 and that character and the way that Bruce Willis played him changed action movies and one of the reasons that it did so was our second point of what you can learn from this movie for your own crucible experiences. And that is to keep your sense of humor. John McClane does not take himself too seriously. And he certainly doesn't meet his crucibles with somber depression. He finds the humor in his plight, as deadly serious as it is. Consider the gag he pulls on the first henchman he kills. He sends him down in the elevator to where Hans and company are holding their hostages. Having plopped a Santa hat on the dead man's head, this happens around Christmas, and we could do a whole other podcast on whether Die Hard's a Christmas movie, but we won't do that. This happens at a Christmas party.




Gary Schneeberger:

He sends the guy down with a Santa hat on his head and he's written on his sweatshirt, "Now I have a machine gun ho, ho, ho." And just because I always have an outfit for these shows, I will reveal, there I am, "Now I have a machine gun ho, ho, ho." On my t-shirt Which I wear every Christmas to some party somewhere, I wear this t-shirt. But the point of all that is John McClane keeps it light even while he is in the midst of circumstances that are heavy. And that is critically important, isn't it? To have a sense of humor, not to laugh at your pain but to keep your spirits up as you go through, walk through your pain.




Warwick Fairfax:

It is such an incredibly good point. I mean often, in the darkest hours a sense of humor at yourself, at the situation I'm sure in the darkest hours of World War II, whether it was the Battle of Britain or the Battle of the Bulge when you had American forces and, I think Belgium it was, dug in foxholes in as cold a winter it's ever been with the onslaught of the Germans. I bet you in those foxholes there were GIs joking about the situation. Given how dire the plight was, you better believe that happened. And so, a sense of humor it's a way of relieving stress. It's also another way of helping to clear your brain so that you'll think clearly.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, it's really critical. It's not that the situation is humorous, that his wife and other people are taken hostage and he's getting shot at but finding a way to see the humor in the situation relieves stress and helps you to think clearly. People have done this for hundreds or thousands of years amidst dire circumstances, seeing the humor in it. Not for the sake of humor but just for the sake of just relieving stress and helping to think clearly, it works. And John McClane is a tremendous example.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And I mean there's any number of examples. So, one of them is the first terrorist he kills, he's like, "Oh, I don't have any shoes on. I'm going to take this guy's shoes and put them on. I'll be fine." And the shoes are too small for him. And he says, "9 million terrorists in the world. And I got to kill one with feet smaller than my sister." Which is funny, and again, the circumstances couldn't be more dire, and the stakes more high but he is finding a way to laugh and blow off steam. Later he's crawling through the air ducts of this building, as I said it's under construction, they're building the Nakatomi Plaza up he's crawling around in the air ducts. And he pulls a Zippo lighter out of his pocket so he can see where he is going.




Gary Schneeberger:

And he realizes in that moment I came out here to see my wife and kids for Christmas. And this is where I'm at. And he actually mimics Holly's voice and says, "Come out to the coast. We'll get together have a few laughs." He's like, "This is just not what I was expecting." And speaking of funny here's a funny anecdote about not just that scene but the movie in general. The actor, it could have been, crawling around in that duct, Warwick, it could have been Frank Sinatra.




Warwick Fairfax: No. Really?




Gary Schneeberger:

Frank Sinatra at the time, this movie came out in '88, made in '87. So Frank was probably about 72. The reason it could have been Frank Sinatra, quick story, is that in 1968 Frank Sinatra made a film called The Detective. It was based on a book by an author named Roderick Thorp. Roderick Thorp also wrote the book on which Die Hard was based. It wasn't called Die Hard. It was called Nothing Lasts Forever. The character was much older and there's very, very few beats of the story that are the same. But because Sinatra, 20 years earlier, had signed a contract for The Detective based on a book by Roderick Thorp, he had it in his contract that if they ever made a sequel, he had to be offered the role first. So, when they made this, technically a sequel, they had to offer 72-year-old Frank Sinatra the role of John McClane. This is the part I love the most. Sinatra said, when they asked him, "Nah, I'm too old and I'm too rich." And that's how Bruce Willis got his big break. So, the trivia question listeners is Die Hard the sequel to a Frank Sinatra film? The answer is yes.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, there's another scene where one of the bad guys surprises him in a conference room and McClane doesn't shoot him right away. And the guy says to him, "Oh, next time you have a chance to kill somebody, don't hesitate." McClane shoots up through the table and kills him and says, "Thanks for the advice." There's just moment, after moment, after moment of that where he's releasing the pressure valve of this pressure cooker that he's in. And that is pivotal to help him get through what he has to get through. And then there's of course, Warwick, the one that we can't say is the most famous line in the film. We can't say it because it's a family show, but it begins with Yippee Ki Yay.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's his response when Hans says, "Do you really think you have a chance against us Mr. Cowboy?" And he says, "Yippee Ki Yay [Insert bad word here]". So, these all are things, right, that the... We've all heard that laughter's the best medicine. And this is true even especially when the sickness we're fighting is moving beyond a crucible. The most tragic circumstances can be met with hopeful optimism. We don't laugh as we've said because what we're going through is funny, but because it helps stabilize our spirits to meet the challenges emotional and otherwise, we'll encounter on our path to significance. It's fair to say, isn't it, Warwick, that there's no way John McClane gets through this crucible and all of these crucibles if he doesn't keep his sense of humor?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's so well said, Gary. I mean I love all those scenes. Yeah. That one when he is crawling through the air duct, he's sweating profusely, it's small, he's probably, you can't help being a bit claustrophobic even if you're not claustrophobic if you're crawling through this really narrow air vent. There are bad guys with machine guns all over the place. You don't know where they're going to appear next. And he is as you say channeling Holly and saying, "Yeah, come out to the coast. We'll get together, and have a few laughs." And he grimaces, it's like, "Why am I here?" I mean he's just laughing at the craziness.




Gary Schneeberger: The absurdity of it all.




Warwick Fairfax: Exactly.




Gary Schneeberger: Absurdity.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. The absurdity of the situation. Now he could have taken on a different task. It's like, "Why didn't I just stay in New York? Gosh, Holly's here and she never should have left." Or, "Maybe I shouldn't have come out and I'm an idiot. She is an idiot. We're both idiots. Why am I here? It's Christmas. I'm not on the job." As they say in the police, he could have gone in a very negative spiral and that would've been a very different movie. But he didn't, he just had this sense of hopeful optimism, as you put it. And he wasn't laughing just for the sake of laughing that it's all a laughing matter. It just did help, as we've said, to keep him sounded emotionally. It helped him think clearly, keep his spirits up. I mean I guess the two biggest points is yes keeping your spirits up, but you have to be able to think clearly in a crisis. The greatest leaders in history have been very, very calm amidst a crisis.




Warwick Fairfax:

Off-topic here for a moment but as listeners know I love history; I think of Admiral Horatio Nelson before the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805 where he is taking on the combined French and the Spanish fleets, he would die in the process. But it was always said of Nelson in that half hour before the battle he was completely calm. I mean havoc was about to come. A lot of people were going to die in that naval engagement. He was completely calm and often great leaders, when the crucibles are at their height, find a way, and in this case through humor, of being calm. That's where you make the best decisions and think clearly. So, yeah, John McClane is really a great role model of how you got to be amidst a crisis.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I hadn't thought about it until you just said that about thinking through it a little bit. Find time to separate yourself and calm. There's this scene when he is up and he's working on that saw, right? That saw goes off and he bangs himself in the head and says, "Think, think." He's trying to will himself to think beyond the next crucible. How to get through what he's facing because he's stuck on an unfinished floor in this high rise at Nakatomi Plaza. And he knows they're coming for him. And he's trying to think of a way to get out of that. One of the ways that John McClane ended up getting out of this is our third point of key takeaways. And that is you need a team of fellow travelers. I think one of the things that's often most misunderstood about this movie, in all seriousness, is that John McClane is often painted as a Lone Wolf. One man against this literal army of terrorists.




Gary Schneeberger:

But that overlooks two relationships critical to his coming out on top and saving the day. And without one of them Al Powell he is, for you listeners if you don't remember the name, he's the Twinkie-eating cop and then, Argyle, his limo driver. Without those characters and what they bring to the table for John McClane, he would not achieve his goals. Powell's chief role is to be his confidant and cheerleader. After a rough start to their relationship, it is Powell, after all, who John throws a dead terrorist out on his police cruiser as he is trying to get away finally able to get the police's attention by dropping a dead terrorist out of a 32nd-floor window onto Al Powell's car. So, they get off on a bit of a rocky start but as they get to know each other, talk to each other on those CB radios, Powell offers a sympathetic ear and actionable intelligence to John McClane. They bond over their disdain for law enforcement bureaucracy and their love for their families.




Gary Schneeberger:

And when fatigue and discouragement start to get McClane thinking fatalistically, he's no longer now being glib and funny, he says, "I have a bad feeling" in the clip that we played at the beginning of the show. That is when Al Powell really shows the benefit of a team of fellow travelers. That scene was pretty powerful when McLean's finally at the end of his rope. He's been funny. He's been in control but not having any shoes, Hans realizes that when they meet, he has his henchman shoot out the glass windows in the building McLean's got to run through. He's got glass in his feet. He's feeling like he's not going to get out okay. And that's when he has the conversation with Al Powell that we heard at the beginning of the show. Why is that so pivotal? That moment and having that person that you can confide in and get advice from?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I mean amidst a crisis or series of crises and crucibles as we say, you've got to have fellow travelers at the beginning and the end of the movie John McClane has Argyle the limo driver, and then through a good part of the movie he has Al Powell. And there's two beats of this that I think are fascinating is that John McClane has a habit of cultivating fellow travelers. He has a habit of creating a climate where they want to help him. With Argyle when he picks him up from the airport McClane said, "Hey, this is the first time I've ever been in a limo." Argyle says, "Well it's the first time I've ever driven one." And John McClane sits in the front seat of a limo. Well, you don't do that. At least not here in Australia. Again, a brief anecdote when I was growing up, you'd always sit in the front seat of a cab, of a taxi. And if you didn't the taxi driver would say, "What's your problem?" I mean because Australia's a pretty egalitarian place, but anyway.




Warwick Fairfax:

So he befriends him and listens to Argyle and says, "Yeah, Argyle, you've got some wisdom there." And he jokes around and he doesn't think of himself as better than Argyle and saying with Al there's a pivotal scene somewhere around there where I guess we'll talk about this here in a bit and you'll unpack it where Powell had some challenging circumstances earlier. And what's amazing is that John McClane says, "Oh. I'm so sorry, Al, that's got to have been difficult." Now here is John McClane fighting for his life, and he's shown the time to be empathetic with somebody who's in safety. That makes no sense in one sense. So, he has a habit of cultivating fellow travelers just by his empathy and care, and his humor. But in the clip that we just heard it's so profound because John McClane realizes, "Hey, I might not get out of this. This could be the end."




Warwick Fairfax:

And that's a time when you reflect and he wants to make things right with his wife, realizing, "Gosh, maybe I should have come out. Not stayed in New York and come out and support her in Los Angeles. And yeah, maybe I've said I love you, but I've never said I'm sorry. And please tell her that." And obviously, Al says, "You can tell her that yourself." But he's really asking for forgiveness. He's empathizing with Al. He is trying to make sure that his legacy is preserved, that things are going to be made right, even if things don't end, he wants things to be right with his wife and with his kids. And so, it's a tremendous scene where he's not so much just thinking of himself. He just wants to make things right with Holly. He's really thinking of her and the relationship. And it is just a great scene, it just shows his character and where his heart is. It's a tremendous scene.




Gary Schneeberger:

This is a good time to make the general point that we talk about a lot here on the show. And you talk a lot in Crucible Leadership about the importance of receiving and giving forgiveness, asking for it, and offering it. That is a critical part of getting us through a crucible. And this is a different kind of crucible that John McClane's facing at this moment in the film. He's not facing crucibles from bullets at the time he's facing a crisis of conscience, if you will, a crucible of conscience. He feels bad about how he's treated Holly about the fact that he didn't support her career when it took off. And he wants her to know that in addition to loving her that he's sorry that he didn't show that support. And that seeking forgiveness and extending forgiveness, are critical to getting past crucibles, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

It really is. And we cannot emphasize this enough. I mean we talk about getting beyond your worst day and having it not define you, getting out of the pit, living a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And that's all very true but it's almost impossible to get out of that pit and get beyond your worst day without forgiveness. It could be yourself, in my case the mistakes I made that led to a failed $2.25 billion takeover, that hurt members of my family and thousands of employees. And, yeah, I mean it's not always easy to forgive yourself, but you have to because if you don't you can't move forward, and you won't be able to help anybody.




Warwick Fairfax:

And it may be forgiving, but, as we say, not condoning but forgiving hurt that was done to you. If you're not able to either forgive yourself or forgive others, as we say, it puts you in prison. It makes it impossible for you to move forward. So, the reason forgiveness is important because we say, you're worth it, your life's worth it, your family, your wife, your husband, your kids, your friends, they're all worth it. And so that's why forgiveness, again it's not condoning, but forgiveness is so important. If you don't forgive, I don't see how there's any way you can move beyond a crucible. You'll be stuck there forever. So, if you want to move beyond a crucible one of the things you have to do is to be able to forgive.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the things that Al Powell does in addition to, I mean yes, he offers an ear and actionable intelligence but he also, the filmmakers do this very cool thing at the end of the movie where we think it's over, right? We think John's won the day the building's fallen down; Hans has been dropped out of the building. He's no longer with us. And what we learn at the climax of the film, the end of the film isn't really the end of the film. John and Holly are reunited. They've rekindled their love. They're walking out of the building, TV cameras are trying to get to him and angry bureaucratic cops are trying to yell at them. But all of a sudden, we hear a scream, and there one of the bad guys who we presumed was dead, killed by John McClane, comes out with a machine gun and someone shoots him and eliminates him. And camera pulls tight, and it was Al Powell.




Gary Schneeberger:

And why that's such a meaningful scene to what you alluded to earlier when John McClane is showing empathy toward Al Powell. Al Powell had been on desk duty for a while at the Los Angeles Police Department because he accidentally shot a kid who had a toy gun that looked real. And Powell drew quickly. And he says to John over the walkie-talkie, as he's explaining this harrowing and emotional thing that happened to him, that he hasn't been able to draw his gun since. So, there at the end who is it that is there? What fellow traveler saves John's life literally, by taking out the bad guy? It's Al Powell. And the beautiful part of that is they both offer emotional support and healing to each other and that helps them both move beyond their crucibles. Right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. It's such a great scene and we all need fellow travelers. And I think it's a symbiotic, mutually supportive environment. They support you; you support them. And it's impossible to know but maybe that psychological support from John McClane and, "Hey look, I'm so sorry. That's difficult." Clearly, McClane's a cop. He gets why situations can be difficult in that split-second judgment you got to have. And then there's a sense of redemption from Al Powell. And if he hadn't gotten beyond his crucible and he'd frozen, John McClane who I think is with Holly at the time, he or both of them may be dead.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so, Al was able to get beyond his crucible, he was able to maybe forgive himself. And if he hadn't gotten beyond his crucible, he wouldn't have taken the action that was needed to save John and Holly. So, it's a great movie scene in which both John is supportive of Al and Al is supportive of John and they're able to help each other and each tackles their own crucibles to the benefit of both. So, you have a whole group of fellow travelers who are supporting each other and getting beyond their crucibles. It can be a powerful movement, if you will. It's really a critical scene.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, we talk a lot about the flywheel effect, right? That things begin to build momentum. And what you just said is a bit of a flywheel effect is we help each other moving through crucibles. It just helps us get beyond them with perhaps a little bit more sure footing than we would've had otherwise. I don't want to forget Argyle because Argyle is still part of the fellow travelers even though he spends most of the movie sitting in the parking garage in the limo talking on the cell phone and listening to music, not really paying attention to what's going on talking to girls on the cell phone or on the car phone. It's not even a cell phone then, it's a car phone.




Gary Schneeberger:

He hears a report about what's happening at Nakatomi Plaza. He moves out of where he is at so he can get in a better position in the parking garage. And he ends up helping out as well, when the getaway vehicle which is an ambulance, the guy who was the technical mastermind for the terrorists gets in to try to get the getaway going. Argyle smashes the limo into him. And then as you pointed out when we were talking earlier, he punches him out too. So, Argyle does indeed have some counseling for John in the beginning of the movie. And then he gets to show his action hero bona fides at the end. Right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Again, it's a smaller part of the movie in one sense but again John, he could have been consumed in that limo ride at the very beginning of the movie thinking, "How's it going to go with Holly and the kids? Am I going to be able to stay with them or not? Am I angry at Holly for moving out here? Am I angry at myself?" I mean he could have been flooded with a sea of emotions which would've been understandable. And so like, "I'm just sitting in the back of this limo. And I don't know this guy. I don't want to know this guy. And I'm just going to brood in my own self-reflective sea of conflicting emotions and thoughts." But he didn't he sits up front he engages him in conversation. Argyle asks him all these, "Do you think you made a mistake?" I mean he's just asking these really penetrating questions about Holly and everything.




Warwick Fairfax:

And John just smiles in his John McClane smirky way saying, "You're pretty smart there Argyle." So, they create a bond. And that bond was to serve him well later. The reason Argyle stayed is, "Well, let me stay because it sounds like you don't quite know what's going to happen with Holly. So, I'll stick around." Limo drivers typically don't stick around. They go off back home or to the next job. So again, a mutually symbiotic thing, they create a relationship that was obviously to be very beneficial in more ways than one to John McClane. So again, another example of a great fellow traveler and a relationship that was cultivated at the beginning of the movie just by John McClane being John McClane before any crisis had happened. He was just being his relatable, funny, nice guy self if you will.




Gary Schneeberger:

All right. So, let's pull the balloon strings together of this third point. You need a team of fellow travelers. The lessons here seem pretty clear, right? Don't go it alone when fighting through crucibles, confide in others, lean on them, take their counsel and encouragement to heart. Let them apply their abilities and expertise to help you achieve your vision. Al Powell saves John McClane's life. Argyle saves his significance in a sense because at the end of the movie when all of these forces, the bureaucratic cops who want to yell at them and the TV reporters who want to make a good story out of it, John and Holly need an escape and Argyle pulls up in the limo that's got a dent in it now because he ran into the ambulance but he's able to whisk them away. And that then gives them a safe place to reestablish their love and their family. So, it really is an excellent example of how our fellow travelers play a huge role in our life of significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

Speaking of significance, Warwick, our fourth point is one we can't make enough on this show and in Crucible Leadership. And that is success is great, but significance is greater. The big payoff here, if you're really watching the movie from this perspective that we watched it from, is not that John McClane saves the day from greedy, neatly dressed terrorists it's that he reunites with his wife and children, and they become a family again. Like anything that is successful in Hollywood, sequels were made to this movie, in the first sequel Die Hard 2 John McClane has resigned from the New York Police Department, and he's gotten a job with the Los Angeles Police Department. And he and Holly are living with the kids and happily married in Los Angeles and she is still killing it for the Nakatomi Corporation as an executive.




Gary Schneeberger:

Again, once movies get successful, they make a lot of other ones, and the stories aren't always clear about who's getting along with who in all the other movies. And but here's the other thing about sequels that is interesting to talk about, Warwick, the first two are clearly the best. Third one's pretty good. The third one ends with John and Holly had a little bit of an argument maybe, but at the end of the movie, he's at a payphone. If you remember those things, listeners, he's at a payphone and he's calling Holly to talk to her and see how she's doing. There's a thing that happens in Hollywood. And I know in part because I worked there for three years marketing films and that is, the Jurassic Park franchise is a great example. Sometimes sequels aren't received all that well, they just pretend they never happen.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, in terms of Jurassic Park they'll say that the third movie just didn't really... They'll just skip over and they'll they won't even talk about that. Rocky V is not part of the official Rocky cannon of films. They just pretend, Stallone pretends it didn't happen. So, the arc of the relationships here is pretty clear from one to two and even at the end of three which is the last one where Bonnie Bedelia's character Holly is referred to in great detail. They are still working at significance. It's not easy. And we know that to be true. Significance can be complicated, but John McClane is still working on his family relationships through the end of three and then in four and five with his kids, for sure. So, that life of significance that he was fighting for, I think, becomes something that we see in the sequels and something that if John McClane were real and we got a chance to ask him what was the most important thing he did, he'd say reconciling with his family was more important than saving the day at Nakatomi Plaza, I think. Would you agree?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's an excellent point, Gary. I mean obviously saving the hostages and making sure the bad guys don't get away. And obviously, there's a scene toward the end of the movie where the bad guy, Hans Gruber got Holly as a hostage and John McClane finds a way of turning the tables and Hans Gruber ends up falling out the window and falling to his death. And yeah, from an action movie perspective it's a powerful scene and yes, John saves the day. But there is this subject of his relationship where he picks the job in New York as a New York policeman over supporting Holly and her career. And when he first goes to the Nakatomi Plaza, he sees she's going by her maiden name Gennaro which obviously doesn't bless him. And it's like, "Ah here we go." He is not a happy camper.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, towards the end of the movie he realizes, "You know what, I could get a job in LA as a cop." Which he does by Die Hard 2. And, "I could have supported her, and I could have handled this a whole lot better." And he realizes, "Okay, I like being a New York policeman but ultimately what's important in life?" That's an important job but maybe there's something more important. It's my relationship with my wife and my young kids that he has at the time. I can still be a cop, but I can still support her. It's not either or, so there's few things more important than our families, our loved ones, supporting them and supporting each other. And ultimately when you talk a lot about legacy, there are some that may have made millions or billions, and what do they want at their funeral? As we often say do we want people saying, yep. There was John or Mary they were a billionaire and founded all this stuff.




Warwick Fairfax:

Or maybe it's they had a loving wife, husband family friends they were a person of character. They were giving in the best sense of the word. They were loving. They were caring. They served others. What do you want your legacy to be? And McClane, I think, realizes when he was in that pivotal scene with Al, "I don't want this just to be about me being a cop." I think there's a subtext there. I love my wife. I love my family. Maybe there are some things more important than just being a cop. As important as that is, my family is critical. I can't sacrifice that for the job. So, it's a critical point about a life of significance and our families and legacy. And it's a beautiful subtext of this whole movie.




Gary Schneeberger:

As you say that I'm reminded to think back in the movie, right, how many times? Two or three times John pulls his wallet out and looks at pictures of his family. It's John and Holly and their two kids. And the smile on his face. There's a scene, and as I said I've watched this movie probably 50 times and I've never really focused on this scene I'm about to talk about here. When they first see each other in her office, her boss is walking him around and she walks into the office and surprises him. And it wasn't a planned meeting. It just happened. She didn't know he was in the office; he didn't know she was going to come into the office.




Gary Schneeberger:

And when he sees her, Bruce Willis does a great thing with John McClane's face, his face softens, he smiles this warm, relieved smile and it's in contrast to what he said earlier to Argyle when he's like, "Well why didn't you just move out here?" And he's like, "Oh, I can't. I got this backlog of scumbags in New York I got to put away." And he's all about the job, all about the job, all about the job. And you really get the sense, I really got the sense when I saw that smile, that relief on his face when he sees his wife again that's where John McClane realizes his life of significance and satisfaction is really going to come. Is that a fair observation?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. It is a great scene. And there is a sense of reconciliation even there. And he realizes just in seeing her it's like, "I need to be with my wife. I love her. I love my kids. We need to figure out a way to make that happen." I think we don't know but, in that scene, I have a feeling he'd probably already decided, "I'm not leaving. I'm going to find a way to be a cop here." Or I don't know. We don't really know but I wouldn't mind guessing that those thoughts had to have flooded his mind at that moment, "I love my wife. I love my family. I'm not going to sacrifice them." Does that make sense?




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, it certainly looks like it. It certainly looks like it on his face. That look when he looks at her it's like all the stress and the tension and LA's a weird place and all that stuff just floats away and all he sees is her. And it's really not to overplay it but in a movie that's a slam-bang action movie, it's a really beautiful scene of what makes John McClane's heart come alive. And I think that's very important to take away from this movie. Speaking of things you can take away from this movie. This is the time in the show that we like to come up with some points of reflection some things that you, the listener, can think about. About the things that are in the movie and the things that we've talked about here. And here's the fun part about this one. This is episode six on Die Hard and for the first five, we picked one. Here's one pointer of reflection.




Gary Schneeberger:

And Warwick and I were talking before we started our recording and we're like, "Oh, there's so many good ones." It's like the number of crucibles that hit John McClane. There's so many of them that there's so many good takeaway points of reflection. So, I'll go first with one I really think is important. I think it's important because I'm the guy that wears outfits to every one of these episodes. So, I have a little bit of a humorous streak, but I think one of the points, listener, to reflect on as you look at your crucibles is how can you use humor to move beyond your crucible. How can humor serve your significance? How can humor serve your bounce back? How can you use it, again, not to laugh at your circumstances, not to minimize the pain but to bleed off some of the hurt of the pain? To make things more tolerable to make things more relatable give yourself a little bit of a breather. Humor can be a great way to do that. So, think about that. How can you use humor to help you move beyond your crucible? Warwick, what's a reflection that you want to share with folks?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Love the thought of humor. That is such a great, great point. A couple of other thoughts I had is one how can you take one step at a time when it feels like everything is falling around you? Everything is falling to pieces. It seems like you might feel there is no way out. This is the end. There's no way up out of that pit. But as we often said the win of a time happens with just one small step. And certainly, in this movie John McClane, how do I keep how do the bad guy's way? Or how do I take out one bad guy? And so, what's one step you can take when you feel like everything is falling around you? So that's one thought.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so, the final thought, because we've talked a lot about fellow travelers in this movie with Al Powell and Argyle is who do you need on your journey to help you keep going? Often when you're at the bottom of the pit and things seem the most dire, that is when you most need fellow travelers. It may seem like taking one small step may feel like a massive leap over the Grand Canyon. No step is small, it may seem to you but having fellow travelers will help you make that one small step, will help you get up one more day and put one foot in front of the other. So, both taking one step at a time when everything's falling around you and then think about, "Who do I need on my team? Who do I need with me on my journey just to help me keep going when I feel like I can't do it alone?"




Gary Schneeberger:

When it comes to fellow travelers, and I'm thinking about Al Powell and Argyle as John McClane's fellow travelers here, it's important, isn't it to not just pick someone who's just like you? But not pick someone who's exactly not like you. In other words, there's a mix, Al Powell's a mix of both what John McClane has and maybe what John McClane doesn't. Argyle, definitely he's got a sense of the humor, but he doesn't have as much tread off his tires in life. It's important, right, to find people who have some things in common that you can talk through and talk about and share experiences with but also people that help you grow. That would seem to be really good resume things you want in your fellow travelers through a crucible.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean that's such a great point. It's probably worthy of more discussion at some point of what makes a good fellow traveler. That's a great point but I think just for summary's sake here, I think it helps to have folks who have maybe similar values and character. You don't want a conflict of values about, "Hey, it's all about number one. And if we can rip people off so long as it's legal it's good." Probably don't want to have that person as a fellow traveler if you are about a life of service and humility and trying to give back to others. So, you got to have people with a similar mindset, but they can come from different backgrounds, genders, ages, life experiences, and often some diversity of life experience and background can be helpful.




Warwick Fairfax:

People with different skills. Maybe you're a visionary and you need people who are implementers. Maybe you're artistic but you need somebody that's a finance person that can help you with the numbers. So, a diversity of experiences and skills is absolutely critical. Diversity of values probably not as much. I mean you want to feel like on the big things in life, in terms of values and outlook on it, you have some commonality. But diversity of experience and skills and background I think is critical. You absolutely don't want to have people that talk the same as you, look the same as you, have the same skills as you. That's not a team of fellow travelers that's not really going to be that helpful. It's a great point.




Gary Schneeberger:

People who can make you better, that's really what at the end of the day that's what John McClane had in Al Powell and Argyle. Well, I've said John McClane now probably 2875 times in this episode. So that's probably a good sign that, I would say the helicopter landed but the helicopters in the movie don't land. So, let's just say we've wrapped up this episode of Beyond the Crucible this episode of LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES part six on Die Hard. Next week we are going to lean into another very, very, very... He's got humor too. He's a very powerful and humorous hero and that's Ironman. That's where we're going to go after next week. So, as always, listener, it's not homework. It's a friendly suggestion that if you want to follow along and as Warwick and I talk through our Ironman episode you can watch we're going to watch the first Ironman the one that kicked off the Marvel cinematic universe the first one with Robert Downey Jr that started it all.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that birthed this multi, multi, multi billion-dollar franchise and changed again, in some ways... I said at the outset Die Hard changed the way action movies were made in the '80s. Ironman changed the way superhero movies are made and marketed for sure. So, until the next time we're together, listener, please remember that we do know that your crucible experiences are painful. We do know that they can take some time to get through. They can take a lot of effort. They often, usually take a lot of effort to get through. We know that you need some fellow travelers to help you get there. We understand that humor can be a great skill to bring to the table when you're going through it. But we also know it's not the end of your story, your crucible experience if you learn the lessons of it if you apply those lessons as you move on in pursuing a vision for your life that's focused on serving others. In fact, that crucible can lead to a chapter in your life that'll be the best chapter in your life because where it's going to end is going to be a life of significance.

With great power comes great responsibility. That’s what Peter Parker’s Uncle Ben tells him in the film we look at on this week’s episode of our summer series, LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Living a Life of Significance. That counsel and wisdom from Uncle Ben – and Aunt May – has been a key component of three different big-screen iterations of Spider-Man over the last 20 years. It’s a key Crucible Leadership lesson, too, one that Peter Parker learns enroute to fulfilling his calling as Spider-Man: the best life is one lived on purpose in service to others – not ourselves. That’s what responsibility and the character that undergirds it look like … and it doesn’t come easily to Spider-Man, or any of us.

Highlights

Spider-Man’s cinematic history (2:55)
Warwick’s renewed appreciation for Spider-Man and its lessons for overcoming failures and setbacks (5:14)
Peter Parker’s constant barrage of crucibles from his classmates (6:05)
How Uncle Ben and Aunt May give Peter a blueprint for rising above (11:51)
Peter’s support of Mary Jane (15:29)
Peter’s powers manifest themselves — and how he uses sight of his values (18:15)
Lessons of forgiveness from Warwick’s Dad (25:58)
Peter’s selfishness causes a life-altering crucible (28:34)
The tragic death of Uncle Ben — and its impact on Peter (32:12)
Aunt May’s words of encouragement (37:37)
The beginning of Peter’s life of significance as Spider-Man (40:31)
Significance is not something we find in public opinion (46:27)
The toughest crucibles hurt us in our hearts (49:12)
New Yorkers defend Spider-Man against the Green Goblin (56:13)
Spider-Man’s character even as his nemesis dies (1:01:08)
Peter’s sacrifice for significance (1:03:31)
The most recent Spider-Man’s mentor: Tony Stark/Iron Man (1:08:27)
A question for reflection (1:12:52)

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.

Ben Parker:

Peter, these are the years when a man changes into the man he's going to become the rest of his life. Just be careful who you change into.




Ben Parker:

This guy, Flash Thompson, he probably deserved what happened, but just because you can beat him up, doesn't give you the right to. Remember, with great power comes great responsibility.




Gary Schneeberger:

With great power comes great responsibility. That's what Peter Parker's Uncle Ben tells him in the film we look at on this week's episode of our summer series LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Living a Life of Significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. That counsel and wisdom from Uncle Ben and Aunt May has been a key component of three different big screen iterations of Spider-Man over the last 20 years. It's a key Crucible Leadership lesson Warwick and I discuss as we unpack the original Spider-Man, staring Tobey Maguire, from 2002. Peter Parker learns, en route to becoming Spider-Man, that the best life is one lived on purpose, in service to others, not ourselves. That's what responsibility and the character that undergirds it look like, and it doesn't come easily or cheaply.




Gary Schneeberger:

If you're aware of Spider-Man, listener, you're aware that there've been several iterations of the character through the years. In just the last 20 years, there have been three different iterations of Spider-Man. That's because, just to give you some background, he's the most popular character in the Marvel Universe, Marvel Comic Book Universe, in the history of Marvel Comics, but he's not owned by Marvel Studios, the people who put out Captain America and The Avengers and Thor and Ironman. His film rights were sold to Columbia Pictures before they formed Marvel Studios. So the Spider-Man movies, the first five Spider-Man movies featuring two iterations, were made by Columbia Pictures in conjunction with Marvel Studios, but Marvel didn't own the rights to the character. So one of the reasons why the character has to keep being rebooted is as an origin story, he's a high school kid, actors get older. So they start with one actor then they have to reboot the series to get a younger actor in place who doesn't look quite so different from the beginning.




Gary Schneeberger:

So just to, again, a brief history of where we're at with Spider-Man, the first series ran as a trilogy from 2002, that was 20 years ago, to 2007. The actor Tobey Maguire starred as the hero in that one.




Gary Schneeberger:

Then from 2012 to 2014, they rebooted it just five years after Tobey Maguire was done in 2007, the actor Andrew Garfield assumed the role in two films, in a pair of movies.




Gary Schneeberger:

The character was rebooted one more time in 2016, that's just two years after Andrew Garfield's last movie, but there were two major differences about that reboot. Marvel had entered a partnership with Columbia to use Spider-Man in their cinematic universe, which by that time, by 2016, was just an enormous blot out the sun success with their Marvel Cinematic Universe films. So Marvel got a chance to work with Columbia to make that Spider-Man in 2016, which allowed them to bring in all the other Marvel characters.




Gary Schneeberger:

The second thing is that that reboot in 2016 did not feature Spider-Man's backstory. He just sort of showed up, already Spider-Man, he was still young, but he showed up already Spider-Man and dove into the action. And his first appearance in a Marvel Studios film was in Captain America: Civil War. And he's played there by actor Tom Holland. He's also played by Tom Holland in a couple of Avengers movies, Infinity War and Endgame, and he also has had three of his own films. So he's appeared six times in Marvel Cinematic Universe, this new version of Spider-Man.




Gary Schneeberger:

All of that to say, important character, big history of the character, a lot of stuff to unpack, but where we're going to spend our time today is in that first movie, 20 years ago, in 2002. And that's Spider-Man, the original Spider-Man, starring Tobey Maguire. Because, I think, and we've discussed this, it's the most robust origin story and contains the greatest concentration of takeaways for us to guide us through our crucibles and onto the path to stay on the path of leading a life of significance. And Warwick, you and I talked about this before we started recording. And you indicated that it's been a while since you've seen this 2002 movie and were quite impressed with it, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it really has. I saw the 2002 and Spider-Man 2 and 3 afterwards. And like you, I've always loved superheroes, but not only is this a great action movie, but as we'll see and unfold in this discussion, there are some tremendous lessons about overcoming failure, adversity, negative self talk, encouragement from others. There are some great Crucible Leadership lessons about coming back from very tough circumstances. So it really is, the 2002 version of Spider-Man, it's a great film to discuss in the context of crucible leadership.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. A lot of that comes from the origin story, the seeds are planted. What I love about that is there's crucible lessons in the origin story, and then crucible lessons in his journey as Spider-Man on his way to a life of significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

So the very first scene that we get in Spider-Man 2002 is a glimpse of some of Peter Parker who's the alter ego, the high school student who becomes Spider-Man, some of his teenage crucibles. In the very first scene we meet him, he's running after his school bus, right? He's missed his school bus. Apparently it happens a lot because all the students on the bus are making fun of him. Like, "Oh, not again, Parker." The bus driver's having a little fun of his expense by not slowing down. And as everybody kind of mocks him from inside, he finally gets on the bus, but they continue to mock him.




Gary Schneeberger:

He gets on the bus. He's not allowed to sit next to certain people. They're like, "No, don't sit here." Even kids who don't look like the "popular." kids don't want anything to do with Peter Parker. They call him lame. One of whom is the boyfriend of the proverbial girl next door who Peter admits in a voiceover he's been in love with since age six. Her boyfriend trips him and he falls flat on his face in the bus. A really painful, hard scene to watch because just kids can be cruel to each other, but sets this up well as this is a young man, this is a kid, a teenager, who knows his way around crucibles, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely, Gary. This is a character that a lot of people, frankly, a lot of us can identify with. There aren't that many people in which high school was their glory years. You were the captain of the football team, the debate team, straight A student. Very few of us were kind of all-star, Mr./Ms. Popular, that kind of thing. Usually it's somewhat less than that. And so here he is, this poor guy, not particularly strong or agile or athletic.




Gary Schneeberger:

He wears big thick glasses. He wears big thick glasses.




Warwick Fairfax:

Right, exactly. Sort of lame, nerdy, everybody makes fun of him. He doesn't even seem like he has a couple of fellow nerds to hang out with.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

It just seems like he's in a category of one.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

So it's a pretty dismal, despondent life at that point, which a lot of folks can identify with. Very few people say, "High school was the best years of my life." It's usually, "I survived high school," for most of us.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And he's also very good at science, which is a front of the line pass to being loved in high school, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly right.




Gary Schneeberger:

As opposed to being a football star, Mary Jane's boyfriend's a football star. So the taunting of Peter Parker continues in this wonderful first few scenes when the bus arrives at its destination, finally. And the destination is a field trip to a science lab where spiders are being studied. And they're being genetically enhanced, we hear, from the woman who's speaking to the kids who are here on the field trip.




Gary Schneeberger:

Peter's a photographer for the student newspaper. He is trying to take pictures and the taunting continues. People keep bumping him. These bullies keep bumping him while he's trying to take pictures to ruin his photographs. And of all the heroes that we've discussed so far, and all the ones that we will discuss, I think it's pretty safe to say that no other hero that we're going to talk about has a life as beset by crucibles as Peter Parker does. He has a lot of them, they're varied and they're kind of constant, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's certainly up there. Life is not easy. Here he is, he's trying to take photographs for the school paper of these fascinating spiders, and he keeps getting bumped. In fact, I don't think one photo that he took worked out. He ends up taking some photos that do, as we'll see, of Mary Jane, but yeah, life is pretty tough. He doesn't seem actually despondent or depressed. It's just, "Hey, this is my lot in life and oh well," but yeah, life isn't looking too good at this point for poor, young Peter Parker.




Gary Schneeberger:

Something then changes big time while he's taking pictures of Mary Jane. That is one of the radioactive spiders that they've messed with its DNA to implant in it the traits of six or seven different spiders bites him on the hand while he's taking a picture of Mary Jane Watson who's the girl next door that he's in love with. And it will turn out to be a shining moment, of what we stay on the show all the time, right? It didn't happen to you, it happened for you. What ends up happening for Peter is that he's given the strength, the ability to shoot strong webs from his wrists. He has a spider sense that warns him of danger. These are all things that he will learn throughout the course of the movie to apply to what will become a life of significance, but it doesn't start off that way at first.




Gary Schneeberger:

Another one of the crucibles that Peter endured before even we meet him, we find out, is the death of his parents when he was six years old. We don't know how they died. He just mentions that his parents had passed away. And he's been raised since then by his Uncle Ben and his Aunt May. Sidebar, Marvel comics did a great job in naming those characters all those years ago. Who sounds nicer and sweeter than Uncle Ben and Aunt May? It's perfect.




Gary Schneeberger:

And our first glimpse that Peter has a pathway to move beyond his crucibles is shown through the love and character of those two people, of Uncle Ben and Aunt May. Ben's been laid off from his job as an electrician. He's trying to find another job. He's not depressed, but he's kind of resigned to the fact that it's going to be tough, but May, his wife, Peter's aunt, says to him, "You're the most responsible man I know." She says she knows he will find a job and they will, once again, overcome their crucibles. "Somehow," she tells them, "We survive." And that, I think, is a key Crucible Leadership truth. You need to be surrounded by supporters who believe in you, who know your character and your worth to encourage you when the setbacks and failures come. May does that for Ben and they both do that for Peter. That was one of the first really big a-ha Crucible Leadership moments in watching this movie again that hit me.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's a great point, Gary. When you think about poor young Peter Parker, you lose your parents at age six, it would be normal for most kids to grow up very angry, maybe they would act out and violent or drugs, alcohol, substance abuse. That's possible and maybe even likely. So why didn't Peter Parker go down that road? He may not have been Mr. Popular, but he wasn't suicidal. He was just, "Yeah, life is not easy, but oh well." Well, that's quite a victory to have an oh well attitude given losing parents at such a young age.




Warwick Fairfax:

And I think the reason that he starts off with some character advantages is having just a wonderful aunt and uncle in Aunt May and Uncle Ben. They were able, throughout their lives and in the movie, to teach him character lessons and sort of imbue a sense of character and right and wrong into him. It'll be tested, he'll have some challenges, maybe a few setbacks, but you can not underestimate enough having people that support and believe in you, at any age, certainly a young age, it really sets him up very well. But life without Uncle Ben and Aunt May likely would've been radically different. And Peter Parker would've been almost inevitably a very different, probably angry, bitter young man, you would think, without those two. So those two people, in some sense, sort of saved him and set him on the path to success in the true meaning of that word.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And you mentioned young people, I fell in love with Spider-Man as a young people, as a kid and reading the comic books. It was sort of a breath catching moment for me when in this newest iteration with Tom Holland as Spider-Man, in this movie, Aunt May is in her 70s, in the current version of Spider-Man, Aunt May is Marisa Tomei, who's younger than I am. So when I saw that, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this character was who was always this matronly elderly woman in the comic books is now this woman who was a young actress and who's younger than me." That was a crucible moment for me, as a Spider-Man fan, when that happened. But I digress, I digress.




Gary Schneeberger:

Peter reveals the character that Aunt May and Uncle Ben have baked into him when he has a conversation with Mary Jane, the girl next door who he's in love with secretly. After her father berates her and insults her, as he does quite a bit, she's unsure about her future and her popularity. She's a popular girl at school, but that's all kind of emotional artifice, it's a facade, but Peter tells her that she should indeed pursue her dream of acting. He says this, "You're going to light up Broadway." He's the only one be who believes in her. And I think this is another truth we can take away. We all need, don't we, Peter Parkers to help us turn our visions into reality. And that's what he does for Mary Jane, for sure.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's such a good point, Gary. As we look at a young Peter Parker in this movie, yes, he has physical superpowers, but he has the emergence of some character superpowers. He has the sense of character, of right and wrong and justice. And throughout the movie, has tremendous empathy, a tremendous ability to encourage. I can't think of too many superheroes with his level of empathy or ability to encourage on a consistent basis and to see the best in people.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

Almost sort of like a foresight. He affirms her acting ability. He says, "Sometimes you know people and you know where they're headed." This is all in their backyards. Their houses sort of are next to each other. And as you say, he says she's going to light up Broadway. Now, Mary Jane has the boyfriend of the high school quarterback, star football player.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. He's the big jock who probably isn't good at science.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. She's attractive so why does he go out with her? Because she's an attractive high school girl. I don't think it's because of her wonderful character. And so that's what a lot of guys in school see. But yeah, she is an attractive young girl, but Peter sees a lot more than that. He sees who she is as a person. She feels seen in the best sense of that word. Her character, her goals, just that sense of affirmation.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. Her ability.




Warwick Fairfax:

Her ability. That sense of affirmation. I don't think she's ever had a guy say that to her. So she looks at him almost in this quizzical... And Peter was so shy that he couldn't say boo to her. He could never even open his mouth. So it's a tremendous scene, as somebody that's very shy, but just really thinking of somebody else in these wonderful, affirming, empathetic words. It's a great scene.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, and I'm glad that you brought up her boyfriend Flash Thompson. I'm going to say it, I don't think we've ever said this on Beyond the Crucible, but he's a jerk. Flash Thompson's a bit of a jerk. He's the guy who tripped Peter on the bus. And Peter ends up getting into a fight with him at school, as his powers begin to manifest themselves in the cafeteria. His web fluid shoots out of his wrist. It ends up knocking a lunch tray into Flash Thompson and he gets food all over himself. And then he wants to fight Peter because Peter's a weak kid and he's going to be able to beat him up.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, Peter's changed a bit since he's been bitten by that spider. He gets into a fight with Flash at school. He wins easily, demonstrating some of those powers that he now has, strength, his spider sense of something bad's going to happen, agility. And even at that time, some people cheer for him, some of the kids who are watching the fight cheer for him, the underdog kids who maybe have been picked on by Flash too, but Flash's pals and all the popular kids, they kind of think Peter's even weirder than they thought before.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's in that moment, in winning that fight, what happens after he wins that fight is where Peter begins to, you hinted at it earlier, begins to kind of wobble a little bit in his character. He begins to wobble a little bit in that goodness that Aunt May and Uncle Ben have tried to place into him. He's jealous of Flash Thompson's car when Flash comes up to meet Mary Jane outside of her house, which is right next to Peter's house. And he sees this really great car he just got as a gift. So Peter thinks, "If I get a car, maybe I could get Mary Jane."




Gary Schneeberger:

It's unspoken, but we next see him looking through the paper at ads for cars that are for sale, used cars. And he keeps looking at, "That's too expensive. That's too expensive. That's too expensive." And he finally lands at one that's under $3,000. He thinks, "Okay, that might work for me," but he has no money so he can't buy it. But next to those ads is this big ad that says $3,000 for amateur wrestlers. And he thinks, "Hmm, I just got in a fight with the most popular captain of the football team at school and beat him pretty easily." He's pretty certain his powers are going to help him in pursuit of this $3,000 so he decides he's going to go ahead and do it.




Gary Schneeberger:

He makes himself this kind of amateur suit, which is kind of funny looking. He tells Uncle Ben he's going to the library to study and he catches a ride with Uncle Ben. And it's in that ride to what he's actually being dropped off, so he can go to the wrestling match, that Uncle Ben has a heart to heart with Peter. And unpack that, that was in the clip at the start of the show, where Uncle Ben is talking to Peter about some things that concerned him, but that's a moving, meaningful clip, not just in the context of this film, but in the context of our lives, all of us, as we look to avoid crucibles, overcome crucibles and lead a life of significance. So talk a little bit about why that scene with Uncle Ben and what Uncle Ben says to Peter is so powerful.




Warwick Fairfax:

So this is a pivotal moment in the film. One of the things we say often on this series about superheroes and sports heroes in Beyond the Crucible is when you're given great powers, yes, there's great responsibility, but there's temptations. It can either, in Star Wars language, make you go to the dark side or the forces of light. And so it's tempting, initially, as you say, Peter wobbles a bit. He kind of enjoys going from nerdy to being strong, athletic, agile. He enjoys being able to pound his nemesis, the bully, Flash Thompson, the captain of the football team. He kind of gets a kick out of it.




Gary Schneeberger:

Who knew, by the way, that spiders have 20/20 vision, because he gets to take his glasses off too. His eyes become perfect.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. There you go, some benefits. So yeah, it's stunning. So here he is trying to earn some money to get a Flash car to impress the girl. And it just seems like he's beginning to lose sight of the tremendous opportunity that he has. And initially he's getting a little self centered. And so Uncle Ben just gives him the talk of his life, this incredible wisdom in which he says, "These are the years, high school years, as a young person, that determine who you will be for the rest of your life." He then says, in the quote we saw in the clip, he says, "Remember, with great power comes great responsibility." He says, "Just because you can beat somebody up, doesn't mean that you have a right to," as in Peter beating up the bully in high school.




Warwick Fairfax:

So basically this sense that the gifts and talents, we can either use it for our own wealth, power, to be superior to others, or we can use it to serve our fellow human beings, men and women that we come in contact with. We can either lead a life of significance, a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, or we can lead a narcissistic life, focused on our own aggrandizement and wealth and power.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah.




Warwick Fairfax:

And we'll see his superhero nemesis chooses the opposite path, but this is a pivotal moment for Peter Parker, which path is he going to choose?




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And what's really interesting about that scene that you just talked about and that we played the clip for at the beginning of the show is that Uncle Ben has no idea that any of this stuff is going on underneath the surface. Uncle Ben has no idea Peter's been bitten by a spider and now has the powers, the proportionate powers of a spider. He has no idea of that. He has no idea that he's not going to study, that he's going to run off to this wrestling match to try to make $3,000 to use his powers for his own gain. He has none of that context, Uncle Ben has, but what he sees in his nephew, in the boy he's raised, he sees he's veering off course in other ways.




Gary Schneeberger:

There's a scene earlier on where he was going to help Uncle Ben paint the house, the kitchen. And he says, "Hey, don't be late." And Peter leaves, "I won't be late," but Peter spends the time instead testing out his spider powers. He's climbing walls. He's doing all those things. And he forgets all about helping Uncle Ben.




Gary Schneeberger:

We haven't talked about this in advance, but that scene so speaks to the power or the character of his Uncle Ben that rather than yell at him for not showing up to help out, his 68 year old uncle paint the kitchen, he leaves a warm food in the oven and writes a note where he calls him Michelangelo because that's what he called him about helping him paint. There's this loving response to Peter's irresponsibility. And that's what he's drilling into in this conversation that you just talked about, where he's saying, "With great power comes great responsibility," even though he doesn't know how great the power is that Peter has. It shows the insight that those closest to us can have to our character and sometimes that we might stumble through it and we should listen.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. And I think it goes to show the value of people in our life. It could be a mom, a dad, an aunt, an uncle, close friends, family members. It could be a teacher in school. There are people that can change our lives by not just their love, but by their words. It can change your life. It makes me think of certainly a pivotal moment in my life that listeners will be familiar with, and it's in my book, Crucible Leadership. In 1976, when as most listeners know, I grew up in a large 150-year-old family media business in Australia. Newspapers, TV, radio, it was very big. In 1976, some other family members shooed my father out as chairman. It absolutely crushed him that that would happen.




Warwick Fairfax:

And I remember having a conversation with him and he said, "I need to forgive them for what they did because it's the right thing to do." I forget if he said, "That's what God," or, "That's what Jesus would have me do." "And it's the right thing for you," because he saw me as the heir apparent and he wanted to try to make sure that one day that I'd be the leading figure in the company. Was it perfect? I don't know. When he said, "I'm going to make the decision to forgive other family members for what they did, throwing me out as chairman."




Warwick Fairfax:

That was one of the most powerful life lessons I've ever learned and I was 15 at the time. I was probably a little younger than Peter Parker here. It was burned into my psyche, just the sense of character, of doing the right thing no matter what, of having integrity, and just the importance of forgiveness. That was a lesson that was burned into my soul for the rest of my life. So in a sense, that's the moment that Peter Parker has from his Uncle Ben, it's the kind of lesson, like the one I had, that just burns into your soul.




Gary Schneeberger:

Unfortunately, right off the bat, when it happens, when that conversation with Uncle Ben happens, Peter doesn't quite get it. Peter actually gets upset with Uncle Ben for lecturing him, quote, unquote. He actually says to him at one point, Uncle Ben backs up and says, "Okay, I know I'm not your father." And Peter cuts him off and says, "Well, then stop acting like it." And it just devastates Uncle Ben, the last moment that they have together before Peter leaves the car and goes off to wrestle is Uncle Ben is clearly wounded and Peter's angry and they part.




Gary Schneeberger:

And Peter does go on to the wrestling match and he wins. And another thing that was extremely exciting to me as a fan of professional wrestling when I was a young man, the wrestler who he beats is played by the wrestler Macho Man Randy Savage, and he's just perfect. Total aside to what we're talking about, but he's just this brutal. He's beating everybody up. One guy he beats up leaves the ring and is like, "I can't feel my legs." There's all kinds of that stuff going on. But he gets in the ring with this kid in this weird costume that's got spider stuff on it. And the kid, Peter Parker, beats him.




Gary Schneeberger:

So Peter goes backstage to collect his $3,000 from the promoter. And the promoter gives him 100 bucks, to which Peter negotiates into 200 bucks, but he says, "Hey, I was going to pay you three grand for three minutes and you beat him early." Peter was so strong, he beat Bonesaw McGraw, he beat him in like two minutes, so he gets cheated.




Warwick Fairfax:

I've got to say, that's a great name.




Gary Schneeberger:

It is.




Warwick Fairfax:

Right? For a wrestler, Bonesaw McGraw.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah.




Warwick Fairfax:

It doesn't get any better than that.




Gary Schneeberger:

It may be better than Macho Man Randy Savage actually, but yeah, it's quite good. And so what ends up happening then is Peter walks away and he's mad. He's just been cheated out of this money that he thinks is going to make his way to have a car and then woo Mary Jane, and he's got a couple hundred bucks in his pocket, which is nothing. But then the promoter gets robbed. A thief runs in, steals the bag that has all the money from the gate receipts from this wrestling match and he runs off. And as he's running off at the elevator, he bumps, he doesn't bump into Peter, he runs past Peter Parker. And Peter just looks at him and the guy says, "Thanks," and he gets in the elevator and goes. And I know you were kind of struck by the dialogue that went on between Peter and the promoter, both in the promoter's office before the robbery, burglary, and then after when Peter doesn't stop the robber.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's really one of the saddest moments in the movie. It's almost a biblical Peter moment when Jesus is being sort of harangued by the religious leaders of the Sanhedrin and they're putting him on trial. And people ask Peter, "Weren't you one of his gang?" And Peter's asked three times, "No, never knew him. Don't know who he is."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's the lowest moment of Peter's life. And it's somewhat similar in that earlier on, often we hear the voices of evil and the voices of good, depending on your religious or philosophical paradigm. We can learn lessons from our good mentors, like an Uncle Ben, well here, unfortunately, young Peter Parker was mentored briefly by this promoter. So this promoter, when he's going to give him $200, not $3000, the promoter says, "Hey, I missed the part where it's my problem."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right, right.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's like, "Look, you didn't finish the full three minutes, not my problem, okay?" So he's just been discipled in a sense, in maybe not evil, but poor character. So then later on, when the wresting promoter says to Peter Parker, "Hey, why didn't you stop him?" And Peter shoots back, "Hey, I missed a part where it's my problem."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

He uses the promoter's words against him. It's the self centered, "Hey, why should I care for my fellow men or women?" It's like, "Not my problem." So he's almost got a bit of discipleship, a bit of mentoring in it's all about number one, narcissism, nobody else matters, get rich. Everybody else, who cares? It was a sad moment, as we'll see, that comes back to bite him in a major way.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And that bite's going to be worse than the spider bite for sure. And the other thing that makes it sad is that that happens no more than a couple hours after Uncle Ben has given him that great advice, "With great power comes great responsibility." And Peter, in that moment at the elevator, fails his first test of wielding great power with great responsibility. And as you said, that will come back to bite him. It comes back to bite him when we find out in the next scene that the thief carjacks Uncle Ben and shoots him to death. Peter arrives just in time to see Uncle Ben die. And the filmmakers do a great job. There's no final words that Uncle Ben gets to say to Peter or Peter gets to say to Uncle Ben. He recognizes Peter and then he dies. So there's no chance for Peter to apologize or for Uncle Ben to offer forgiveness. It's just Peter's then, we know, is just stuck with this hole in his heart. And remembering that the last thing he ever really spoke to Uncle Ben was, "You're not my father. Quit acting like it."




Gary Schneeberger:

Peter is distraught after that, obviously, and he chases down the carjacker. Who once he gets him, he sees the carjacker is the man he let leave in the elevator. He discovers that this carjacker, he could have stopped the carjacker before the carjacking ever happened, but it wasn't his problem then. He had just gotten rooked out of some money and he was going to pay back that unkindness to the promoter. He did and that robber then got away, hijacked Uncle Ben, shot him to death. And Peter then begins to, as Spider-Man, begins to really pound on the guy, beat him. We get the idea that he intends to kill him. The guy says, "Show me some mercy." And Peter's like, "Just like he showed my Uncle Ben." He takes the mask off that he's wearing, the kind of amateurish mask he's wearing, so that the robber can see, "I'm the guy that you ran past in the promoters building." And he's like, "Don't kill me." And Peter's like, "I'll show you mercy like you showed my Uncle Ben."




Gary Schneeberger:

We don't know, another great decision by the filmmaker, we don't know if Peter was going to kill him or not. He doesn't get the chance, the guy trips on something and falls out of an upper story window to his death. But that scene, again, really brings home the power of, as you were saying, "Tell me again how this is my problem." Now he realizes it is his problem, because it's just cost him his beloved uncle.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Sometimes when you say, "It's not my problem," it can mean maybe people are hurt that you don't know, but sometimes it may mean people are hurt that you do know, and you love and care about. You never know kind of what's going to happen. So it's a very sad scene. And Peter is now really saddled with this sense of guilt, of, "Gee, it's my responsibility that my beloved uncle died. I had a tough conversation with him, said he wasn't my real dad. So I ended things in a bad way, didn't have a chance to reconcile. And because I was so self centered and self focused, I let this bad guy not just hurt and kill some person I don't know, but somebody I love as much as anybody in the world other than maybe Aunt May." So obviously he feels, understandably, incredibly guilty and responsible for what happened.




Warwick Fairfax:

So sometimes you'll make horrific mistakes in your life. And clearly this is a big one. Is he responsible for Uncle Ben's death? That's probably a bit harsh, but he feels that, and that's the point. And so really the test, as we'll see in the rest of the movie, is this going to destroy, this crucible? It's almost maybe one if not the toughest crucible. He is feeling he's responsible for Uncle Ben's death. Is that guilt going to drive him to narcissism, to alcohol, to substance abuse? It'd be very understandable if it did, completely understandable. Or will he choose to learn the lessons of his crucible, let it refine him, and somehow use that pain for a purpose to help others? It's a pivotal moment and we'll see which choice he makes. Is it to go to the dark side of self destruction or to the light of really empowering, encouraging, and helping others? It's a critical, pivotal moment in his life.




Gary Schneeberger:

And one of the things that really helps cement his decision on where he goes is that after Uncle Ben's funeral, he has a conversation with his other guardian, with his Aunt May. Peter's distraught and Aunt May doesn't know exactly why. She doesn't know anything about Spider-Man, anything about the wrestling match, but she knows Peter's upset. And she understands that because of how important Uncle Ben has been to his life. But she takes the time, again, the power of encouragement. She says this to him, "You loved him and he loved you." She says to Peter, "He never doubted the man you'd grow into, how you were meant for great things. You won't disappoint him." That's exactly the kind of support and belief we need to offer others as they look to regain their footing after a crucible, to help them see and take aim at a life of significance. That's what Aunt May does to him, for him, in his darkest, most desperate moment.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it changes, exactly as you said, who knows where he could have gone without that exhortation, without that truth from Aunt May, which basically it's Aunt May acting as a surrogate for Uncle Ben, not knowing what transpired in the car, but basically saying, "He loved you. He believed in you," fill in the blanks. "He's not mad at you for losing your cool in the car with him and saying hurtful things. He knows the kind of man you're going to grow into." And that does indeed change everything for Peter, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I guess the thought that occurs to me is that we all need Aunt Mays in our life.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yep.




Warwick Fairfax:

We need people in our lowest moments when we might be in the edge of a self destructive spree. I think most of us have been at points in our life where we felt bad about ourselves or bad about what happened to us from somebody else. And it's very easy to get into a self-destructive spiral that can be difficult to get out of. Having somebody like an Aunt May in our darkest times, as we say in Crucible Leadership, at the bottom of the pit, to say, "You are worth it. You are valued. I love you. I believe in you. And your beloved uncle also loved you and believed in you. And you won't disappoint him. You didn't disappoint him." That kind of belief and encouragement and support when we hate ourselves, we're at the bottom of the pit, we just hate life, it's not going to necessarily change us overnight, but those drops of encouragement, of grace, of forgiveness, of belief, they can help give you fuel to begin to climb out of the pit and really move towards the light, to a life of significance. But it's not easy to do without Aunt Mays.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

But having an Aunt May is sort of a turbo charger that greatly increases your ability to get out of the pit and to move into a more positive direction. It's a great scene, and yeah, we all need Aunt Mays in our life.




Gary Schneeberger:

And to your point that Peter begins to live out his life of significance right after that conversation. He does it by patrolling the streets of New York at night and stopping criminals in the act. Now, he dubs himself Spider-Man and more crucibles come. The publisher of the newspaper, J. Jonah Jameson, the Daily Bugle publisher. He labels him a menace and a threat, but he's just trying to sell newspapers. It turns some in the city against him, but Spider-Man doesn't let it bother him. Peter doesn't let it bother him.




Gary Schneeberger:

He also then must encounter and face his first super villain, not just guys who are robbing banks or robbing stores. He's got to face a super villain, the Green Goblin. And the Green Goblin was driven violent and mad by a formula he developed and took himself to try to win a government contract. The Goblin, and Peter doesn't know this, but the Goblin is the father of his best friend, Harry Osborn. The Goblin is industrialist Norman Osborn, who has taken a bit of a shine to Peter. Peter doesn't know he's the Goblin at this point, but he's been driven mad by his own creation because he was greedy and he wanted to win this government contract.




Gary Schneeberger:

And what's interesting about his character, the Green Goblin, is he's a bit like the Joker from the Batman movies, in one of the Batman movies staring Christian Bale in The Dark Knight, where Heath Ledger won an Oscar for his portrayal of the Joker. Batman is asking Alfred what makes someone like the Joker, the Joker. And Alfred says, "Some guys just like to set the world on fire and watch it burn."




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's kind of where the Green Goblin comes from, is Norman Osborn gets a little bit more mad, but he recognizes after a battle with Peter, that Peter's got some, or that Spider-Man, he doesn't know what's Peter yet, that Spider-Man has some skills that could benefit him in whatever the scheme is to make money and harness power. And he tries to turn Peter over to his side. He says that people will hate him despite all of the good he's doing and he asks him why he bothers. And I love Peter's response, especially now at this point in the show, Peter's response when he says why he bothers to do good, even though people are going to hate him eventually.




Gary Schneeberger:

Peter's response to the Green Goblin is, "Because it's the right thing to do." Well, you just said that, Warwick, like five minutes ago, when you were talking about when you asked your dad why he forgave those family members who threw him out of the company, because it's the right thing to do. And that's the kind of character that Peter has here, now developing.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's what we mean when we say your values must undergird all you do as you move beyond your crucible toward life of significance, have an anchor for your soul. Peter Parker, Spider-Man, has that anchor for his soul, or he would not have been able to answer the Green Goblin that way about why he does it. He understands it's not about anything more than what's right and what's wrong and that's what he's trying to pursue. Right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely. This is a fascinating scene and we've got Norman Osborn as the Goblin against Peter Parker as Spider-Man. And not only is it a test of physical superhero strength, it's a battle of character and it's a battle of the forces of evil versus the forces of light.




Warwick Fairfax:

And it's interesting, just some of the backstory, as you were saying, with Norman Osborne, he's all about himself, about ego, about money. He's desperate to get this big government contract, but the Defense Department, the top generals in the Pentagon, they don't really believe in what he's doing. They think the guy's a bit of a fruitcake. And so they're just waiting to pull a plug. And so desperate is he and so greedy that he does something insane and uses this kind of serum on himself that turns him into a madman. One of the key scientists says there are side effects to this that can potentially turn you insane and psychotic. It's a risk, but the guy is too self absorbed, narcissistic. And indeed, it turned him insane, and he hears these voices, almost voices of evil.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so here he is talking to Peter and just trying to really not just fight him physically, but almost like the devil in the Bible, he's just trying to tempt him, saying, "People like to see heroes fail so why bother?" As you say, and Spider-Man replies, "Well, because it's the right thing to do." He tempts him saying, "Hey, we could make a great team," but Peter's chosen a different path. The Green Goblin is now all about self destruction, hurting and killing people, and his own tortured, insane, psychotic self. Peter has really turned to the light, if you will, to help people. So he won't be tamped. He won't use his forces to hurt people. He'll use his superpowers to help people. So really it's a fight of physical strength, superhero strength, but it's also a fight of character, a fight of evil against good. So this battle is fought on multiple levels.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And that scene is also interesting because it spotlights another key truth about Crucible Leadership. This idea that the Green Goblin is saying, "They're going to hate you anyway." Right? "They love to watch heroes fall. They build you up so they can knock you down." And one of the things that you say a lot, that we say a lot on the show, and that you say a lot through Crucible Leadership is don't let the naysayers deter you or adulation distract you as you are executing your vision for a life of significance. Significance is not something you find in public opinion. Don't test the winds and go with the way the winds are blowing. It's something you find within. And that's what Peter calls on when the Goblin tries to tempt him. He's learned that lesson from Uncle Ben.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's such a great point. One of the most important things I think listeners would do well to ponder on is if you're looking to be the hero and save the day and the knight in armor on the white horse, danger lies there. Some would say, with some degree of truth and veracity, maybe I had a bit of a hero complex when I launched the $2.25 billion takeover in my family's 150-year-old media company way back in 1987, and this, not consciously, but I felt like that company was being run by some other folks in my family, and others, not along the ideals of the founder. Whether it's true or not is another story.




Warwick Fairfax:

But there was a little bit of that savior hero complex there, I've got to confess, but yeah, you've got to watch that because certainly I've been through periods where some people said, "Oh, you could be one of the greatest Fairfaxes since the founder, John Fairfax." And others said, "We've been praying for a person of faith to rise up in the heart of the media for decades." And all that's pretty heavy, tempting stuff. And then others at the time and subsequently were like, "Well, you single handedly destroyed a 150-year-old company."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

"You're this erratic kid, at the time, who could have had it all, threw it all away. So you're just impetuous and showed poor judgment." And maybe sometimes there's a little bit of truth in either stereotype, but you can not be defined either by the adulation you receive or by the condemnation. Ultimately your sense of self-worth should be in your faith, in your values, in the core of your beliefs that are at the heart of your soul. That's what should govern your sense of self-worth, not the adulating, because you're the greatest thing since Jesus or you're the worst person that's ever lived, both are probably wrong.




Warwick Fairfax:

So you've got to anchor your belief and your self-worth in something beyond public opinion. And that's what Peter Parker does. He's seen as a vigilante, I think as you mentioned, the editor of the Daily Bugle, for his own reasons, paints him as a vigilante. Public opinion is very divided over whether he's a force for good or evil, Spider-Man, but he does not let that deter him from his mission.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. Right. Pretty significant thing then happens in the movie. The Green Goblin discovers Spider-Man's true identity. He realizes he is Peter Parker. He knows Peter Parker because Peter is the best friend of Norman Osborn's son, Harry. So he recognizes who Spider-Man is, and that's the key, he believes, to defeating him. He says this when he's talking to himself, that evil side is talking to the Norman Osborn side, "The cunning warrior attacks neither body or mind," he says. "First we attack the heart."




Gary Schneeberger:

So he attacks Aunt May and he kidnaps Mary Jane. That idea, what Norman Osborn, Green Goblin says in that moment, is a platinum truth of Crucible Leadership we need to remember every day. Those things that will discourage us most, that pose the greatest danger to knock the wind out of our sails and change the trajectory of our lives, are the things that hurt us in our hearts and our souls. That's why, as we've talked about so much on this show, we must always be mindful of what I've heard you call dozens of times, soul care. Why is that so critical for all of us, as we look to avoid crucibles, weather crucibles, and pursue a life of significance?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's such a great point. One of the things that most religions, I'd say many people believe, is there is a fight, if you will, between good and evil out there. I can't think of any religion that does not believe that. And so whether you view it that way or more metaphysically like in Star Wars where it's the force, the force for good versus the dark side, that's true.




Warwick Fairfax:

And what I love about this movie is it isn't just a fight at a physical super hero level between good and evil. This voice, almost in a psychotic schizophrenic way, talks to Norman Osborn as the Goblin. And unfortunately mentors him exceptionally well. From a dark side perspective, it's fantastic advice, if you're on the dark side. Don't just attack the person, physically crush their soul. If you crush their soul, you will stop their ability to win, their ability to fight.




Warwick Fairfax:

It doesn't quite say it in those words, but when that evil entity, if you will, just talks about the battle is basically about hurting their hearts and hurting their souls. That is just so, so sad. And as we see just later on, the way that Green Goblin does this, to attack Peter's heart, is by attacking Aunt May, his beloved Aunt May. And there's an incredible scene where the Green Goblin knows who he is and he proceeds to attack Aunt May, who, to reiterate this whole good versus evil, she's reciting the Lord's prayer.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

She's saying, "Our father in heaven, hallowed be thy name." She's reciting that as this evil is happening and the Green Goblin is saying, "Continue," loves the whole good versus evil fight.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right, right.




Warwick Fairfax:

"Keep it up." He's almost taunting. Almost like Satan in the wilderness with Jesus kind of thing, just taunting. It's so true. And I think the lesson for all of us is guard your hearts, guard your soul. Where your heart and soul is, is where you a whole life is, where your whole direction is. Soul care, physical fitness, eating right, really important, but dig down into what you believe is the ultimate truth. Whether it's faith, whatever religion that would be, beliefs, philosophy, make sure you're 100% grounded every day with practices that guard your heart and your soul, because you lose the battle for your heart and your soul, you've lost the battle for your whole life. So that is the ultimate Fort Knox of your life, that you guard it with every fiber of your being, your soul. It's absolutely critical.




Gary Schneeberger:

Aunt May's in the hospital after she's attacked by the Green Goblin. There's a scene in the hospital where she's talking to Peter. Again, no idea he's Spider-Man, none of that, just knows he's Peter Parker who's worried about his beloved Aunt May. There's a scene that moved you when they're talking about Mary Jane and she's urging him to just quit keeping it a secret and tell her how you feel. "Why can't you tell her how you feel?" But there was a scene there that moved you. Talk about that a little bit.




Warwick Fairfax:

One of the subtexts in this movie is Peter has loved Mary Jane his whole life. And Mary Jane really sees something in Peter she's sort of evolving into because she's, like a lot of folks, attracted to the strong, handsome football player, but there's something in Peter that she admires. Peter then gives, who is really himself fantastic at empathy and encouragement, he gives actually Mary Jane that compliment. He says, "When you look at Mary Jane's eyes, you know what kind of man you want to be. You have reached the unreachable. You feel stronger yet weaker." Basically she kind of bores into your soul or just that she just has this effect on you that's hard to describe.




Warwick Fairfax:

And I think we all want people who make us be the man or woman that we want to be, that we feel we could be. And he sees in Mary Jane as somebody who also believes in him. It's not just he believes in Mary Jane, she believes in Peter Parker, as we'll see towards the end of the movie. She admires him. She admires his soul. He has Aunt May and Uncle Ben, but here's somebody that he deeply loves who absolutely 100% really believes in him. And that's huge for him. There's something about her that inspires him to be better than himself so it's a wonderful, wonderful scene.




Gary Schneeberger:

This is not a spoiler. It's a superhero movie, heroes, beat villains. Spider-Man defeats the Green Goblin in the end. And there's a great scene during the final battle that I really loved when all these everyday New Yorkers gather around the scene of the fight that's taking place kind of up in the air on scaffolding. The Green Goblin has his glider that he rides on. Spider-Man's got his webs and they're fighting all above the earth there. But all these New Yorkers from all walks of life gather to cheer on Spider-Man and to go against the Goblin.




Gary Schneeberger:

And they start throwing things at the Green Goblin who's got these bombs that can radiate you, right? That can just make you vanish. He's got bombs that'll blow things up. He's a very high tech guy who could kill any one of these average New Yorkers who are chiding him, but they're telling him to leave Spider-Man alone and they're throwing rotten fruit at him, they're throwing stuff at him. And there's scores of them, maybe hundreds of them up there.




Gary Schneeberger:

And one of them says this, "You mess with one of us, you mess with all of us." It's a small scene, but it's a critical truth about the importance of living a life of significance. Our life of significance can inspire others to lead lives of significance. We change the world by changing the people living in the world. And what Spider-Man has done through his acts of dedicated to saving New York, to serving New York and its citizenry, what he has done is inspired that same kind of selflessness in the people of New York. If you blink, you'll miss the scene, but it's really a powerful truth about what Crucible Leadership aims to teach, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely, Gary. It's a great scene in which maybe not every New Yorker thinks that Spider-Man's a hero, but he sees it in this final scene, one of the final scenes, Spider-Man is trying at the same time to save Mary Jane and also save people that are in this tram, the Roosevelt Island tram that connects Roosevelt Island with Manhattan. I've actually traveled on that tram, funnily enough, but fortunately the Green Goblin wasn't around, so that was good. Yeah.




Gary Schneeberger:

You escaped there. Good for you.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. Hopefully a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man would've saved me, but it's a great moment where Spider-Man is inspired in a sense, Peter Parker is, by his Aunt May and certainly his Uncle Ben in that scene about using your powers for good to help others. And here he's inspired other people, fellow New Yorkers, who throw stones and whatever they can against the Green Goblin. He's inspired a bunch of folks.




Warwick Fairfax:

And when you feel like you're living a life of significance, we always talk about if you can help one person, that's enough. More? That's great. But it's not about numbers, but it's making a difference in people's lives. And Peter Parker is not just saving them physically, he's also saving them in terms of character. He's helping them become people that also lead lives of significance. They're focused on helping others. These folks are trying to help Spider-Man and combat the Green Goblin and maybe save those poor people on that tram. It's a great scene. It's one of the final scenes before we get to the ultimate conflict between Spider-Man and the Goblin and the continuation of that scene is also very powerful.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And in the continuation of that scene, again, not a spoiler, the Green Goblin is indeed killed by his own glider and the trident or the things on the front that stab him to death when he's trying to use it to kill Spider-Man. And speaking of Spider-Man's character, Peter Parker's character, in that moment as the Green Goblin lay dying, again, the Green Goblin is Norman Osborn who's the father of Peter's friend Harry. There's something that transpires that the Goblin asks him to do that Peter weighs and his response to it speaks to his character and the truth that sometimes living out of your character causes you some challenges. It's not always easy to live your life according to your values and your character. How does that play out in the death scene of the Green Goblin?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's a great scene. So as you say, Green Goblin takes off his mask, reveals that he's Norman Osborn. And Norman pretends to befriend Peter, it's all a trick, it's all just a device. Again, it's right out of the evil playbook, if you will. He says to Peter, "I was like a father to you," while he's manipulating some remote device to get his glider thing all geared up to kill Peter Parker, Spider-Man, behind his back. And so in this retort to Norman Osborn saying, "Hey, I was like a father to you." Peter says, "I had a father. His name was Ben Parker."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

Now, obviously that's Uncle Ben. That's not his actual father, but in that moment, he's saying Ben Parker was the father I knew, the father that raised me, and I loved him. Basically you're certainly no Ben Parker. So it's a wonderful scene.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it gives him the chance, it gives Peter Parker, Spider-Man, the chance to redeem that last moment he had with Uncle Ben, where he said, "Stop acting like my father if you're not my father." He redeems that part in this final scene with the Green Goblin. And then beyond that, he has to make a decision.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Very well said. And so sort of poetic justice, the Green Goblin gets killed by his own device. So Spider-Man doesn't actually kill him, he just moves out of the way and this device with the trident kills the Green Goblin. And so then as Norman Osborn has moments to live, he says to Peter, "Please don't tell my son, Harry, who I am and what happened," because basically he wants his son to think well of him. To Peter's great cost in subsequent movies, Peter does not reveal that Harry's father, Norman Osborn, was the Green Goblin. And he keeps that promise, as we'll find, to his great cost. He does the honorable thing to really out of love and care for his good buddy, Harry. It's a very kind thing that he does and a noble thing, but it would come at great cost as we'll see in later movies.




Gary Schneeberger:

Absolutely. So the end of the movie then is all set up at that point for the hero to get the girl, right? We all love to see that happen in these kinds of movies. There's been lots of tension. There's been lots of conflict. There's this unrequited love between two characters. We want to see them get together. And that almost happens at the end of this movie. Mary Jane confesses her love to Peter. As much as he loves her though, he tells her he doesn't love her, that he just wants to be her friend. He's determined, we hear him say it in an internal monologue, that, "No matter what I do, no matter how I try, the ones I love will always be the ones who pay." The price of his life of significance, of serving and saving the city, is he can't get the girl. But teaser alert, at least not yet. He does indeed get the girl in Spider-Man 2. And there's even some suggestion that he might get the girl in Spider-Man 3.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's a pretty steep price. A lot of times we can think that living in a life of significance then coincides with living like we have everything we want. That necessarily isn't true in real life, R-E-A-L, or in reel life, R-E-E-L, in this case. Peter doesn't get everything he wants, even though he's doing what he knows to be the right thing, the life of significance, dedicated to serving others and living it very much on purpose to the point that he denies his own romantic feelings for the girl he's loved since he was six.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's so true. It's such a great scene in the movie. And it really begins in just an incredible way in which Mary Jane said when she thought she was about to die and she was dangling in the air, along with the folks in the Roosevelt Island tramway car while the Green Goblin was fighting Spider-Man. She said when she thought she was about to die, she thought of Peter. Now, she doesn't know Peter Parker's Spider-Man. And for most folks, it's like, "What girl wouldn't fall in love with Spider-Man? He's the hero. He's the superhero." Peter Parker is just Peter Parker.




Gary Schneeberger:

And in fact, she has fallen in love a little bit with Spider-Man. They have the iconic film kiss where they kiss in the rain. She's kind of drawn to Spider-Man because he's so heroic, but she has no idea that it's her friend, Peter, or the man now that she loves, Peter. She has no idea about that when this scene happens.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Yeah. So true. But sometimes when you think, "This is going to be my last night on earth, I'm about to die," reality gets really crystallized. What is it you value? Who do you really love? And she loves Peter. She said there's only been one man for her. She says Peter makes her feel that she's more that she could be. And she tells him that she loves him. And basically, I think it's because of his character. She falls in love with his character, with the good man that Peter Parker is who's always caring for others, empathizing and encouraging them. She feels like she can be a better woman with Peter by her side. Makes her feel that she can really believe in herself because Peter helps her believe in herself. It's a great scene.




Warwick Fairfax:

So that would be incredibly affirming and I'm sure Peter was moved deeply. But as you say, internally, he says, "I'll always care for you. I'll always be there, but we'll have to be friends," because he feels like that, as you say, his internal monologue, "Everybody that I care for, I put in danger." And so his higher purpose is to care for others, especially Mary Jane. And by being her boyfriend and maybe husband one day, he feels like she'll be in danger. So it's almost like inside he's saying I love you too much.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

To love you in the way that you want me to love you. She can't know that he's thinking that. And not only that, not only do I love you too much to have a serious relationship with you, my duty is to other human beings, is to humanity, is to men and women and to protect and serve and save them. And I can't have anything derail my higher purpose. It's the ultimate sacrifice as he sacrifices the love of his life to protect her because he loves her so much. And also because his highest purpose is to serve others. It is the ultimate life of significance. It's an incredible heroic and almost the ultimate selfless act on so many levels.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. So there's one beat from the most recent iteration of Spider-Man that's worth pointing out, just because it reflects most of what our conversation has been about here or the high points of this conversation of Spider-Man 2002. And that is in the most recent iteration of Spider-Man, he doesn't have an Uncle Ben. He has, as I've said before, he has an Aunt May who makes me feel really old because the actress, Marisa Tomei, who plays her, is younger than I am. I don't know how I'm ever going to get over it. I'm never going to get over that, actually. But in the current iteration of Spider-Man, it's not Uncle Ben, but Ironman who takes him under his wing, perhaps under his armor, and teaches him to believe in himself, to trust his powers, to trust the goodness inside him.




Gary Schneeberger:

And as we wrap up here, that's really a role we all should look to play, in encouraging others pursuing their lives of significance. Isn't it? In every Spider-Man iteration, there's that character or characters who speak encouragement, life, affirmation into the hero. And that's a big reason of why he becomes a hero. That's a great lesson for us as we're interacting with people, to help them become "heroes", by doing the same thing, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's so true. It's hard to think of people that have done heroic things without somebody that just believes in them. It's really the power of both encouraging and being encouraged, having an Aunt May and Uncle Ben that, or in some sense, a Mary Jane, that really believe in you. It can help you be better than you thought you could be. It could help you be everything you dreamed about in terms of who you are as a character and how you would serve others.




Warwick Fairfax:

But I think it also speaks, too few times in life do we focus on encouraging others. I've often found people think things, but they don't say it. I have this mantra, if you will, in terms of things on a positive side, "If you see something, say something." In other words, if you see something positive, say something. I've tried to do it with people I know and with the nonprofit boards I've served on. I'm not perfect, but it's one of my highest values is if there's something that you see that is worthwhile, mention what it is and be specific. And don't hold back because it's like rocket fuel to you, well, it would be like rocket fuel to others. And especially when we're in our lowest moments.




Warwick Fairfax:

I think back in the early '20s of when President Franklin Roosevelt was stricken with polio. He was, I don't know, maybe early 40s or something. He was in the height of life and he gets polio, which back then was a death sentence. You were meant to hide away. It was shameful for whatever reason in society. And his wife, Eleanor, just believes in him, saying, "Your life is not over. You can have a political comeback," which back then, would seem unthinkable. And his mother, Sara Roosevelt was more, "Yep, you should stay home and lead a quiet life." I'm sure a wonderful woman, but that wasn't helpful, his mother's advice. What was helpful was the rocket fuel from Eleanor Roosevelt. In his darkest moment, she believed in him. Without Eleanor Roosevelt, there would be no Franklin Roosevelt as president in the height of the Depression, at the height of World War II. So can you imagine World War II or the Depression without Franklin Roosevelt? It's unthinkable. It's a scary thought. Who knows what the United States or the world would be like.




Warwick Fairfax:

So having an Eleanor Roosevelt in your life or an Aunt May is critical, and being an Aunt May or an Eleanor Roosevelt. You don't know who you're talking to, who they'll be in terms of character or anything else in life. It's a great model for us, Aunt May and Uncle Ben in this movie.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's a great on-ramp to the reflection question that we have for this episode. Every time we do one of these dialogue episodes, especially here in the series, we want to leave you, listener, with something to ponder. And I'll talk about this Warwick, and then I'll throw it to you to pull the balloon strings together and put the bow on the package. But here's the reflection point for you, listener. The movie really shows the power of encouragement. We've talked about it this entire episode. Whether it's Uncle Ben believing in and guiding Peter to become a man of character or Peter supporting Mary Jane as she pursues her dreams of becoming an actress.




Gary Schneeberger:

So ask yourself this question. Who in your life needs encouragement? Who needs to know that you believe in them? Now to Warwick's point, go tell them. Turn the podcast off right now and go tell them. And be specific about the character traits you see fueling their success, but also their significance. Be as specific as you can be about those things that you want to affirm in them. This should be a bumper sticker. Be someone's Uncle Ben, right? Be someone's Uncle Ben. If you get nothing else out of this show, get this, be someone's Uncle Ben. Get that or whatever it is Warwick's going to leave us with at the end. Warwick, wrap it up for us.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, I think that is a great point to end on, I have to say, but to reiterate what you're saying, Gary, you never know who you're going to affect. It may be that somebody may achieve greatness like a Franklin Roosevelt, or maybe not quite at that level, which who of us do. But when you think about a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, there are fewer greater ways to live a life of significance than to encourage others, especially at their lowest moments where they're in the bottom of the pit. And not just saying that you believe in them, but telling them why you believe in them and being there for them. And don't just do it one and done. They're probably going to need to hear it more than once.




Warwick Fairfax:

And it's not flattery. Flattery is saying things that aren't true, which I absolutely don't believe in. Encouragement is saying things that are true, that the person is going to have difficulty believing in their lowest moments. But be specific, talk about their character traits. And if you have to think of, "Well, how can I think of who to pick?" Pick whoever comes to your heart, but certainly if you have a friend or somebody that you know well, especially because it gives you a bit more of a right to speak, think of somebody that maybe today is their lowest day. Maybe they're in the bottom of the pit. Give them some words of encouragement that will be like drops of grace in a soul that's parched, that may not have much ability to move on. So just think of that person who you can encourage and just make a difference in their life. Because that's, to me, it's almost one of the ultimate ways of living a life of significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

That is a perfect place to end the show. So thank you, listener, for spending time with us on this fifth episode of our series LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES, in which we're talking about the lessons we can learn, the inspiration we can draw from our favorite movie heroes, be they superheroes, action heroes, historical heroes.




Gary Schneeberger:

Next week, just so you can do the advanced screening of the film if you wish, we're going to talk about another one of my favorites, Die Hard, the first Die Hard from 1987 staring Bruce Willis. Lots of great crucible experience information in there. In fact, we've published a blog at crucibleleadership.com a couple years ago around Christmastime because Die Hard is a Christmas movie, just so you know. There's a little bit of confusion about that, some controversy, but I'm telling you, from the co-host of the show here, it's a Christmas movie. And it's a bit of a superhero movie as well.




Gary Schneeberger:

But until the next time we're together and we talk about Die Hard, we ask that you remember this, that we understand your crucibles are difficult. Those experiences can knock the wind out of your sails. They can make you feel as if the trajectory of your life has changed. Certainly Peter Parker's trajectory of his life changed when as Spider-Man he encountered some of those crucibles that the Green Goblin threw at him. But if we learn the lessons from them, if we apply those lessons moving forward, and Peter applied some lessons that he learned from his Uncle Ben about character, about with great power comes great responsibility, if you learn those kinds of lessons through the difficult times in our lives, that will make the times ahead in our lives less difficult. And will, in fact, in the most rewarding outcome that we can get, is they will lead us to, as they led Peter Parker and Spider-Man to, a life of significance.

“Rise and Rise again, until lambs become lions.” There’s a motto to live a life of significance by, to inspire not just perseverance in the face of crucibles, but noble triumph over them. It’s the central truth explored in this episode of the summer series LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure. Host Warwick Fairfax and cohost Gary Schneeberger discuss the many lessons to learned from ROBIN HOOD, particularly the Russell Crowe version of the film, in which a common archer preserves England’s sovereignty and becomes a champion of the downtrodden and dismissed. Robin finds a life and builds a legacy of significance by cultivating his character and putting the needs of others ahead of his own wants. Be sure to catch the intermission – this is a series about movies, right? – where Warwick and Gary discuss the versions of the Robin Hood legend that have resonated the most for them for decades.

Highlights

Why we chose Robin Hood for this series (4:03)
The character’s rich cinematic history (7:00)
How Robin Hood leaves success behind to pursue significance (10:03)
The original film depiction of Robion Hood in 1922 (11:38)
Why Robin Hood has been around so long (13:32)
How Robin Hood is like James Bond (15:36)
His similarities to Spider-Man (18:19)
The scene that depicts Robin’s character (21:23)
The king’s righthand man is not an honest man (30:34)
You can’t inherit a vision — or nobility of character (33:19)
The knights in Warwick’s family tree (36:50)
“Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions” (40:51)
Intermission: Warwick and Gary share their favorite version of Robin Hood (43:11)
Longstride begins to find his purpose … while pretending to be someone else (52:41)
The legacy his father left him (55:49)
The origin of the Magna Carta (1:01:36)
The power of one small step (1:06:50)
Robin Hood becomes an outlaw (1:09:55)
Warwick’s final thoughts (1:14:28)

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Sir Walter Locksley:

You need to know what I know. Your father was a stone mason. Is that pleasing to you?




Robin Longstride:

Yes, it is.




Sir Walter Locksley:

But he was more than that. He was a visionary.




Robin Longstride:

What did he see?




Sir Walter Locksley:

That kings have a need of their subjects, no less than their subjects have need of kings. A dangerous idea. Your father was a philosopher. He had a way of speaking that took you by the ears and by the heart.




Robin Longstride's Father:

None of these things can be written down, Robin. You must commit them to your very soul. This is the science of memory.




Robin Longstride:

Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions.




Sir Walter Locksley:

Finally, hundreds listen, thousands, who took up his call for the rights of all ranks from baron to serf.




Robin Longstride:

Rise and rise again until lambs become lions.




Gary Schneeberger:

Now there's a motto to live a life of significance by. To inspire, not just perseverance in the face of crucibles, but noble triumph over them. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This week on our special summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, what our favorite movie heroes can teach us about overcoming setbacks and failure, Warwick and I discuss the lessons to learn from Robin Hood. We'll spend most of our time discussing the Russell Crowe version of the film, from which that clip you heard was taken, in which a common archer preserves England's sovereignty and becomes a champion of the downtrodden and dismissed.




Gary Schneeberger:

Robin finds a life and builds a legacy of significance by cultivating his character and putting the needs of others ahead of his own wants. And don't miss our intermission. The series is about movies, right? Where Warwick and I discuss the versions of the Robin Hood legend that have resonated the most for us for decades. Spoiler alert, mine involves Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby. The reason why, listener, this is going to be a lot of fun is that this is part of our series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, what your favorite movie heroes can teach you about overcoming setback and failure. And this week's exploration is on a subject, on a movie hero, that that has meant a lot to Warwick since he was a boy, as we'll talk about here. And before I say said character's name, I'm just going to do this, so you can see who we might be talking about today.




Gary Schneeberger:

Warwick, there you go. It is indeed, Robin Hood. It's why I've got an arrow here on my jacket. And that's why if you're listening, not watching on YouTube, you have no idea why we just laughed. I've put a Robin Hood felt hat on my head. So, I very commonly wear hats on the show. I will not wear this one the whole episode though, Warwick, because it'll probably distract you. So I'll take it off now, but there it goes. So, that was my way of making sure I was on brand here for our discussion of Robin Hood. The reason that we chose Robin Hood, listeners, is one of the things that we try to do with every hero that we select is: what are the key learnings from the movie experience of that hero that apply to what Crucible Leadership aims to help you to do?




Gary Schneeberger:

And that is to overcome your setbacks and failures and lead a life of significance. And Robin Hood is a great example of that. And I'm going to throw out a couple of biographical notes, and then I'm going to let Warwick sort of explain a little more about it. But Robin Hood, as you all know... If you know only a little of him, he's the guy who takes from the rich and gives to the poor. And he's a legendary heroic outlaw depicted originally in English folklore, and then subsequently featured in a lot of literature and a lot of film.




Gary Schneeberger:

According to legend, he was a highly skilled archer and swordsman. In some versions of the legends, he's depicted as being of noble birth. In some modern versions, he's depicted as being a yeoman. But some of the general beats that are there for all of them is, he's taken part in the crusades or he's served King Richard who was running the crusades, and he's often dressed in this hat that I was just wearing. But it's that idea of fighting for the oppressed, and helping them become less oppressed, I think is sort of the headline of who Robin Hood is if we had to nail it down to a tweet, right, Warwick?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Yeah. He's always fighting for the common man, common woman. Obviously, different adaptations. Kind of originally in the earliest myths dating to 1100-1200's and beyond, he was sort of this yeoman, common man figure. And then in later versions, and I don't know, 1600's through 1800s, he becomes a noble, I guess, because the writers of mythical fiction back then wanted him more to be this heroic noble figure. So yeah, there have been different versions of him, but he's this mythic person that fights for the oppressed against the rich and powerful.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's one of the things that I've found really interesting about it because I have not been a huge Robin Hood fan my whole life. He is big in America, as well, but certainly not as big as perhaps in England and Australia. But I sort of always assumed at some point in my life, I forget when I stopped assuming this, and he was based on a real life figure. And that has been something that historians have tried to prove over the years, but they had never been able to do it, have they? That Robin Hood was actually based on one person who actually existed.




Warwick Fairfax:

No, it is really a mythic heroic figure. And it's just fascinating, as I guess we'll get into, is just the different versions of him in film have changed a bit, but we'll get into this 2010 Russell Crowe movie we're going to chat about a lot here. If anything, that's more of the original story of Robin Hood. But the mythic figure I grew up with is really typified in the 1938 movie with Errol Flynn as Robin Hood, Olivia de Havilland as Maid Marian, and was The Adventures of Robin Hood. And so, that's sort of the classic version that pre-Russel Crowe, even the Kevin Costner version, that is what, today, people commonly think of as Robin Hood. He is this nobleman that goes off to the Crusades, at least in some of them, kind of comes back. King Richard is captured somewhere in Austria, I think it is, and is held for ransom for years. And so, Robin is back in England because he opposes then Prince John and his tyranny, he becomes an outlaw.




Warwick Fairfax:

So you have this nobleman who basically gives up his title, if you will, by fighting for the oppressed. And at the end of the 1938 movie, King Richard comes back and all is restored, and everything's good. So that is the classic tale, be it in Kevin Costner's version or in Errol Flynn's version. Wealthy nobleman, basically in a sense, puts everything on the line to fight for the oppressed, but at the end he has it restored. Anyway, that's the normal version, if you will, in the last, I don't know 80, 90 years of the Robin Hood myth.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's interesting to hear you explain it that way because we say often at Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible that success and significance aren't mutually exclusive. You can have success, and that success can be also part of a life of significance. What's interesting as I hear you describe Robin Hood in that way, in the traditional reading of the Errol Flynn film and the Kevin Costner film, he sort of had to cast success aside to find significance. He wasn't one who initially was able to meld those two together. He had to leave behind success. He had to become an outlaw. And then through that, in helping the oppressed, he found significance, and as you said, it's restored. But that's an interesting concept. There's not a whole lot of times we talk about that on this show, that success and significance don't exist in the same universe. In the universe of Robin Hood, many times, that's true. Success, as the world defines it, and significance do not coexist.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, sometimes you have to be willing to risk at all for the greater good. In really, every version of Robin Hood that's popular, it's never about him. In the 1938 classic version with Errol Flynn, not only does he want to rob from the rich, the oppressive King John, who was imposing ridiculously high taxes just to benefit his own wealth and coffers, but also he wants to help raise money to free King Richard in Austria, help raise ransom money.




Warwick Fairfax:

There's a wonderful scene in the 1938 movie when he is trying to explain to her, in the Sherwood Forest, what it is they do. And they've just plundered a whole bunch of stuff, taxes from some wealthy henchman of Prince John, and he asks his men, he says, "Men, should we divide up all this money, the spoils, for ourselves? Or should we use it to ransom King Richard in prison in Austria? What do we do, men?" And they all shout, "This is for King Richard." In other words, they could have used the money for themselves, but none of these men were about themselves. It's all about combating oppression and freeing their beloved King Richard, who wasn't perfect, but certainly was a way better king than Prince John.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, certainly better than his brother turned out to be for sure.




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh, man. In every version, Prince John, and then King John is the bad guy, which was true in real life.




Gary Schneeberger:

Sort of like guy Guy Gisbourne as the sheriff, right? I mean, he's a bad guy in all the versions, as well. Speaking of all the versions, you have talked a little bit here about the 1938 with Errol Flynn. We're going to really unpack the 2010 with Russell Crowe, but it all kind of begin filmically in 1922 with Douglas Fairbanks. And that is an interesting film because not only does it set Robin Hood on his filmic journey, but it's sort of the start, you could argue, of action heroes. You and I were talking beforehand here, and you said that Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone all owe a little bit of a debt of gratitude to Douglas Fairbanks. How so?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely. So the original 1922 version starring Douglas Fairbanks, I mean, he did an early silent movie version of Zorro and pirates, swashbuckling movies. He was the original action hero swashbuckler that everybody from Errol Flynn onward owe a debt of gratitude. I mean, back in the twenties, he was the box office gold. Everybody wanted to see the latest swashbuckling Douglas Fairbanks action hero. He was married to another movie star, Mary Pickford, and arguably you could say they created Hollywood. Back in the early twenties, it wasn't a whole lot out there and with their movies, and they built this big house, Pickfair, somewhere in, I don't know, Beverly Hills, Hollywood, somewhere like that. It just became a magnet. So yeah, Douglas Fairbanks was huge in many ways, both in terms of helping to create the Hollywood that we now have, as well as just the original art in the story, the action heroes, an amazing guy.




Gary Schneeberger:

And all this that we've been kind of talking about, let's gather it up here and put it in perspective for the listeners. What makes Robin Hood so timeless and ageless, why he's still around these 80, 90 years, I can't do the math, is because of what he inspires in us, the viewers, right? And that's to live a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. If there was a logo for that aspect of what Crucible Leadership stands for, Robin Hood's a pretty good logo for that, isn't it? A life on purpose dedicated to serving others.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. And in the Robin Hood myth and every version, putting everything on the line for your beliefs. It's almost like in the military, they say in the US, "Duty, honor, country." People go in the military knowing they may well have to risk their lives for their country. It's in one sense, you could say the ultimate noble sacrifice to... And in this particular case in the Robin Hood era, he is willing to lay down his life to combat forces of oppression, in this case, led by Prince, and then King John.




Warwick Fairfax:

And it's not about his own wealth, irrespective of the version. Whether he's a yeoman, common man in the 2010 Russell Crowe version, or Kevin Costner, Errol Flynn version where he's more of a wealthy nobleman, it's all about putting everything on the line, not just for a cause, but for a cause that's devoted to helping other people, right? That, in a sense, is the ultimate life of significance and that you were willing to risk everything to help others for a higher purpose for a life of significance. That's why it's such a compelling story and why people have been fascinated by the story of Robin Hood for years, if not centuries.




Gary Schneeberger:

And one of the things that's interesting about it, and we're going to get into talking now about the Russell Crowe 2010 version. But sort of to set the table for that, one of the things I found fascinating about looking through all these movies that have been based on the Robin Hood legend have drawn their inspiration from that is that, this movie, this 2010 movie, you're exactly right, it's lasted through generations and each generation has sort of gotten its own kind of Robin Hood. I liken it to... As I was watching this movie for this show, it made me think of James Bond. And I just so happened to be, aside from the work I do at Crucible Leadership here, I'm writing a book on the films of James Bond, and I've watched from Sean Connery through to then Daniel Craig. And what happens is, Sean Connery's kind of a rake, right? He's kind of charming and he's witty, and Daniel Craig is gritty and violent and really strong and powerful.




Gary Schneeberger:

And the same sort of thing can be said about the early Robin Hoods, and then to this 2010 with Russell Crowe. It's kind of like Daniel Craig's version of Bond, Russell Crowe's version of Robin Hood is very much for its time today. It wouldn't be boxing, right? Boxing's described as a sweet science, right? That's Errol Flynn's Robin Hood, I think. Russell Crowe's is MMA, mixed martial arts. It's much more physical and much more gritty. But yet, the importance, again, for our discussion, is that the beats of the story about dedicating your life to serve others and rising above crucibles, is a throughline through all of these iterations of it. The 2010 Robin Hood begins with a fantastic preamble. The preamble says this: "In times of tyranny and injustice, when law oppresses the people, the outlaw takes his place in history." This movie takes place, as most of the Robin Hood legends do, in 12th century England. That's a pretty good summary of what we're about to see in this movie, and frankly, what we see in all the Robin Hood depictions, most of them.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. It's all about Robin Hood as being this champion for the underdog in fighting against tyranny and injustice. I mean, sadly, tyranny and injustice have been around ever since there were humans. It's the nature of humans that there will be some that choose to oppress, even enslave others. And it's true of most, if not every culture, and it was certainly true in 12th century England, as we'll see later. The rise of Kings back then was pretty much absolute. They could do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted. Pretty much no rules, none of this Marquis de Queensbury rule stuff like in boxing they had.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, it's like, you're the king... At the risk of being slightly humorous, I'm reminded of that Mel Brooks movie, I think it's History of the World, Part II, or something. I don't care if there ever was a Part I, just started with Part II. And there's a scene where King Louis of France says, "It's good to be the king." And it's kind of like that. It's humorous in a way. It's good to be the king. You could do you could do whatever you wanted, bad for everybody else, but these were dark times.




Gary Schneeberger:

And speaking of Mel Brooks, even he did a Robin Hood movie. Robin Hood: Men in Tights, which was a comedy, which is funny in that Mel Brooks kind of way. I'm going to do something I haven't done in the series yet because you just have been talking about kings and absolute power. Our next episode is going to be on Spider-Man. And there's a key beat in the Spider-Man story. It varies from movie to movie on who tells it to him, but Spider-Man lives on with this belief, birthed from a crucible, birthed from pain, that with great power comes great responsibility. And that is what we're not seeing in the bad guys in Robin Hood. They have a lot of power, many of the rulers, but they're not living it responsibly. And that's where Robin, as he develops power, he continues to live responsibly.




Gary Schneeberger:

He starts out with no power living responsibly and as he begins to become a hero, he doesn't lose that sense of responsibility. The basic beats of this story, in Robin Hood 2010, King Richard the Lionheart, he's been away for a decade. He's fighting his crusade and he's away for 10 years, and the people, as you've indicated, have suffered because they don't have a leader with his character. They don't have a leader with his... He's not a perfect leader, but he's got a hearty character. The barons in the country are not united. They're all kind of operating independently. And everyday citizens are oppressed by greedy and unscrupulous leaders, including, as depicted in this film, the church is not non-complicit in what's going on. And into all of this backdrop, we meet Russell Crowe who plays Robin Longstride. Talk a little bit about Robin Longstride, as portrayed by Russell Crowe in this film, at the beginning, when we first meet him.




Warwick Fairfax:

So he is just this common man. He has been in the Crusades with King Richard. After 10 years, at least as depicted here, they're back in France, which at the medieval times, I don't know what, 1000, 1100 through maybe 1200, 1300's or so. England fought over various parts of France, not to get to in the weeds here, but at the time we're talking about, 1066, William the Conqueror of Normandy and Northern France conquered England. So, you had the Normans and the Saxons. Robin is of the sort of Saxon class, which was sort of oppressed in a sense at the time. So King Richard, after 10 years in the Crusade, he's in France and he is sort of one more siege away from returning to England, at least that's what they say in the movie. And so, here's Robin Longstride and he's just a regular guy.




Warwick Fairfax:

He's an archer. Certainly in English history at this time, for the next couple hundred years, the archers, the Longbowmen of England were sort of the ultimate weapon that other nations couldn't compete with. The ability to shoot these arrows from these massive bows, long distances, shoe armour. It's certainly around English history. So he was an archer, which certainly had some respect in the military back then, but he was a common man. He wasn't this nobleman. So, that's the Robin Longstride of this version. And in some sense, in the original myths of Robin Hood, that is in a sense back to the original myth, if you will.




Gary Schneeberger:

And he has a moment early on in this movie with King Richard. This is a very interesting... This is a great episode to be here, listener, because you're going to get a chance now to... And it's funny that we refer to things that don't show up in a final product as being on the cutting room floor. So Warwick had parts of his book, Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials To Lead a Life of Significance, ended up on the cutting room floor. And now, we're talking about movies where the idea of a cutting room floor actually does really exist because they would cut film out and they would land on the cutting room floor. But there's a scene that helps explain the character, and by character, I mean the internal fortitude of Robin Longstride that you had originally put in your book, Crucible Leadership, to help people understand how you develop character, help people understand those kinds of things. So, unpack that a little bit. Let's kind of walk through that because it's a fascinating look at how you speak truth to power, I think is the headline on that.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. So originally in my book, in the current book I have a couple chapters that deal with organizational leadership. How do you organize a team of committed followers and that kind of thing. And so in the original version that was cut literally years ago, I had a scene from this 2010 version of Robin Hood. And in the movie, King Richard the Lionheart, he's laying siege to this castle in France, and he's chatting with Sir Robert Locksley, his right hand man, and he's feeling a bit melancholy that they're in his tent. And Sir Robert Locksley is saying, "They're going to rejoice when you come home." And King Richard says, "Well, I'm not so sure. My army knows better. The Lionheart is a bit mangy."




Warwick Fairfax:

He feels like some of the luster of his character has worn off a bit, a little bit of self awareness. He's sort of a bit melancholy. And so, Robert Locksley says, "But everybody in the army idealizes you." And he says, "Oh, come on." And so he says, "Let's see if we can find an honest man." He wants to see if he'll find an honest man in the English army that will tell him the truth. That's what he's looking for, and really credit to him, I suppose, for doing that. So somehow he comes along, slide this command arch Robin Longstride. So basically, there's a scene in which he ends up meeting him and, if you've seen the movie, you'll know the context, but he starts out the relevant portion of our dialogue by saying, "Are you honest enough," to Robin Longstride, "To tell the king something he doesn't want to hear? What's your opinion of my crusade? Will God be pleased with my sacrifice?"




Warwick Fairfax:

Now, that's about as tough a question as you're ever going to face. What's your opinion of the crusade? And will God be pleased with my sacrifice? And so, Robin takes a minute, and he looks at the king and says, "No, he won't." In other words, God won't be pleased with your sacrifice. I mean, in this day and age, as we said, Kings had absolute power, which meant that the king could have killed him on the spot. There's no Supreme Court, no appeals. I mean, you're literally taking your life in your own hands by saying that, and Robin did. And so obviously, Richard says, "Well, why do you say that?" And so Robin says, "The massacre at Acre..." Which was in the Middle East and in Palestine. And so Robin says, "You had us herd two and a half thousand Muslim men, and women, and children together and basically killed them."




Warwick Fairfax:

And he said, "There was a woman that just looked at me and she just had pity in her eyes. Not anger, but pity. And in that moment, Robin said, "We will be Godless. All of us, Godless." In other words, they were betraying their faith, they were betraying God. They're doing everything morally and spiritually that was abhorrent and absolutely wrong. So at that point, King Richard says, "Honest, brave, and naive." Clearly he was missing a few beats in his character, the fact that he could even think that was justifiable, that horrific act. And so what happened to... You would think he could have been executed at that point and ended the movie after 15 minutes. But no, he was put in the stockades, if you've seen those at fairs where you stick your arms and legs in stocks.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, he could have been killed. At least flogging would've been mild. And so, that's sort of the end of that scene. It shows tremendous bravery on the part of Robin. And one final beat to this story that's not in the movie, but is really cool. In real life, King Richard does indeed die at the siege of this castle in France. He gets shot with a crossbow and he lays dying. He wants to know which French soldier has killed him and turns out it's some French guy that I don't know, supposedly in some other battle, King Richard's killed his father, brothers, wars, this stuff happens. And King Richard says, "Well, I understand that. I forgive you. And you are to be free. In fact, I'll even give you some money."




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, who gives their person who kills them money? It makes no sense. So it's a great story, and it's totally true. Sadly, after King Richard dies, some other mercenary kills this young guy in pretty gruesome fashion. Sometimes, forgiveness is good, but when you die, it's not necessarily inherited by the next generation. King Richard is an interesting guy. A flawed hero, if you will. But as we'll see, coming up, the now King John, as flawed as Richard was, and he was deeply flawed, King John was a whole nother level of evil. He truly was evil without any redemptive qualities whatsoever.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And we will get to King John, who is King Richard's youngest brother, his only surviving brother. But something you said as you were telling that story, Warwick, really struck me. And it's the first time I thought about it this way, but you mention Robert Locksley, who is with King Richard when he's looking for an honest man among his forces. You mentioned that Sir Robert Locksley is the king's right hand man, but the king's right hand man is not the honest man that the king's searching for. I mean, the king doesn't know he asks someone, "Let's see if I could find an honest man." And his right hand man who he asks, is not an honest man because clearly, as you've explained, that massacre was something that a right hand man would know that was not the right thing to do.




Gary Schneeberger:

But again, he was perhaps more interested in holding onto power, holding onto authority, than he was in doing the right thing. And that's something that you've talked about in the book a lot. We talk about it on the show all the time, surround yourself, leaders, with people who will tell you what you need to hear, not only what you want to hear. And Richard had surrounded himself... Sir Robert Locksley was someone who told him what he wanted to hear and didn't tell him what he didn't want to hear.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's a fascinating point. I hadn't really thought about this, but I think another beat to the story of Sir Robert Locksley, I don't know that he was a bad person per se, but sometimes around this mythic hero, like a King Richard, and you put blinders on. You see the heroic figure, the one that the men cheer for, and you forget the bad stuff because you don't want to take your hero off the pedestal. So for those of us, it's good to have heroes, but look at them with sober eyes. Don't think our heroes have no flaws because every person does. So if you're a follower, if you're a Sir Robert Locksley, don't idealize a hero so much that you can't even see the bad or their deficiency. So, there's lessons for King Richard. There's also lessons for the Robert Locksley's of this world. Have a sober appraisal of your heroes because no hero in the world is perfect. Everybody has their flaws and Robert Locksley was not willing to see that. He just saw the mythic hero figure, not the deeply flawed king that Richard was.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And we find out more about Sir Robert Locksley, in fact, and in one of the next big scenes in the movie that has some import for Crucible Leadership. And that is, he is wounded in the battle that commences, that cost King Richard his life. He's wounded, as well. And as he's laying dying, Robin Longstride is walking through among the injured men and Locksley stops Robin and says to him, he asks him to return his sword. He hands him his sword and says, "Please return this to my father back in England." Again, speaking to perhaps the character of Robert Locksley having some holes in it. He had taken this sword from his father without letting his father know that. His father's also Sir... I forget his name. Sir... What's his name? Walter. Sir Walter Locksley. And he wants Longstride to bring the sword back to his father.




Gary Schneeberger:

And he begins the conversation, Locksley does, with Robin by saying, "Surely, you know what it's like to have a father who loves you." And he says, "No, I don't know what that's like." Robin says. From his point of view, he feels his father abandoned him at age six. But here's the interesting point, Robin agrees to bring that sword back to England and give it to Robert Locksley's dad. And I think the key Crucible Leadership truth there is, we say a lot of the time, you can't inherit a vision and that is entirely true. You cannot inherit a vision, but at the same time, you don't necessarily inherit the kind of nobility that leads to character rather than position. Robin Longstride, at that point in his life, had no really memorable father influence.




Gary Schneeberger:

There was no heritage there that he felt that he heard. And yet, he built his own character on his own doing his own thing by telling the king the truth in that time. And by this man, who's basically a stranger he's fighting alongside, who he knows is of high station, but he says, "Yeah, I'll go back to England and I'm going to bring this sword back to your father, because this is your dying wish." And Robin Longstride, as a man of honor, takes on that responsibility to execute that. And there's a lesson in that for us, as well, about the development of character. You can't inherit character from someone, but what Robin didn't inherit from his own father, in his own sort of upbringing, he certainly built on his own in taking on this responsibility for Robert Locksley.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It's such a good point, Gary. Nobility of character and nobility of spirit, it's not something you inherit, it's sort of intrinsic to who you are, or it's something that you believe in, develop. So this was an incredible scene where, as you say, Robert Locksley lays dying, he's sort of murdered in an ambush. He's got a few moments to live and he basically begs Robin Longstride, "I didn't leave my father in a good position. I took his sword from him. I didn't ask. I want to be reconciled to my dad. What I did was wrong. I love my dad. He's a good man. Please give the sword back to him." And just begs him. And Robin Longstride says, "I will do that." As soon as he said that, Robert Locksley then dies. He's at peace now, knowing that there'll be...




Warwick Fairfax:

It was not just the sword will be given back to his father, but there's some sense of reconciliation. There's some sense of, "Forgive me, Father. What I did was wrong." And so, it's a great, not just returning the sword, but in a sense, giving some measure of healing and restoration to the relationship between father and son, even after the death of the son. So, it's an incredible thing that Robin Longstride does. And as you say, it shows his character, his nobility of spirit, which is something that is irrespective of your place in life and birth. We can all have that nobility of character and spirit that Robin Longstride has.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. I mean, there are people in this movie who are called Sir, who have the title of Sir who don't deserve it, who don't have the character to match it. Gottfried being the great example. Is he English? Is he French? He's playing both sides against the middle. He's sort of the chief villain of the piece, but he's got nobility in some sense. King John has nobility in a regal sort of aristocratic sense, but he doesn't have any of that nobility of character that you talked about.




Warwick Fairfax:

No. I mean, just an interesting beat on that, since we're talking about sirs and knights. As listeners would know, there were actually three knights in my family in a row, and not inherited. You can't inherit a knighthood, at least in England, but typically not in Australia, where my father was Sir Warwick Fairfax. His father was Sir James Oswald Fairfax. And then before him, Sir James Redding Fairfax. And in theory, you're meant to be given a knighthood for service to the community for doing things that are meritorious for your country. That's the theory.




Warwick Fairfax:

In practice, obviously, certainly back then, it wasn't always that case. But I think I might have mentioned this occasionally, but my father was knighted while we were living in England when I was about six. And so, he actually got knighted in Buckingham Palace by Queen Elizabeth the Second. At age six, it seemed like some cavernous auditorium in the palace. I felt like I was in... I don't know, sort of the bleachers, upper bleachers somewhere. But you could see, just like in the movies, my father kneeled, and she got out the sword, and puts the sword on both his shoulders flat side. Obviously, you don't want to do the sharp side, otherwise knight's not going to be a knight too long. If anybody's knighting people, flat side first, just tips here.




Gary Schneeberger:

There's some leadership tips.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. And then she says, "Arise." To Warwick, just like in the movies. It was pretty impressive. So yeah, I'd like to think my father was one of the the good nobles, one of the good knights, if you will. But yeah, they weren't always that way, unfortunately.




Gary Schneeberger:

Now that you've told that story, you have to tell the funny thing that you mentioned in the book that I've heard you tell a couple times. Not everybody... I mean, people who aren't from England or Australia don't necessarily understand sirs, and Knights, and lords, and all that stuff. And weren't there people sometimes that sort of misidentified your father by giving him a bit of a royalty promotion of some sorts? Explain that a little bit cause it's just funny.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Yeah. So after I graduated from high school in, I guess, '78, and then was going to Oxford later in fall of '79. We toured around the US for a couple months because I loved American history, and that was where I wanted to go. My dad said, "Well, you got in to Oxford. I'll take you anywhere you want to." And I wanted to go to the US, so we were traveling around and, as you say, people, certainly back then, didn't get all the differences, and they would call him Lord Fairfax. I mean, the word Lord Fairfax... Back in the day in Northern Virginia, There was a Lord Fairfax that helped George Washington get his start, which is another story. Well, a lord is a step up on being a knight, and there's probably 15 different levels of knighthood, believe it or not. Knight is George, and the garter, and goodness knows how many gradations there are, but yeah. When they called him Lord Fairfax, he didn't say, "And actually, no, I'm just Warwick." He just said nothing. "You want to give me a promotion?"




Gary Schneeberger:

I wouldn't have said anything either. In a passing thing going by, that's fine. If that's what you want to believe, that's perfectly okay with me. Back to the sirs though, that sword that Sir Robert Locksley gives Robin to bring back to his father, Sir Walter Locksley, Robin is messing with the grip on it. He unwinds the grip and he sees a slogan emblazoned in it. And it says this: "Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions." And it's pretty obvious when you hear that, but later in the film we learned that sort of just means never give up. And that's another key point in Crucible Leadership. We've done an entire podcast series on resilience about keeping bouncing back. It's never too late to allow the crucibles of our lives to season and motivate us to a life of significance. Resilience is critical to not only recovering from a crucible, but living a life of significance afterwards. And that's a lesson that Robin Longstride, as this movie plays out, certainly learns, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

It really is. And we'll see, later on here in the movie, even the broader significance of that phrase, "Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions." Yes, absolutely. On one level it means perseverance and you never give up, but on another level, on an expanded level, the question is, never give up about what? And basically what Robin Longstride's father is saying, "Your life should be in service of others." It should be, as we say, in Crucible leadership, a life of significance. A life dedicated on purpose to serving others. When his dad is saying, "Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions." Until the common people have strength, have justice, will be another way of putting it. So never give up, but make sure your life's purpose, your life cause, is a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. That was Robin's legacy, as we'll see later, but there's a lot of just deep meaning behind the words on the hilt of that sword.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. And just so you know, I also wore a t-shirt with a lion on it today because I knew that was coming.




Warwick Fairfax:

Awesome.




Gary Schneeberger:

I always dress for the part in costume. So that was a pretty significant, and not heavy beat, but that was a definite important point to let sit with listeners. And let's do that, and do what they do at movies sometimes, especially long epic movies. They take an intermission. And so, let's take an intermission in our discussion of Robin Hood and Robin Hoods, as they appear on film for our series here, Lights, Cameras, Crucibles. And let's talk about... You and I both have on the list of the 75 Robin Hood versions that are out there, you and I both have favorites or some that have more meaningful to us. For you, it's... Well, explain what it was for you. What's your kind of one that really tugs at your heart?




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, in the sixties and seventies growing up, there was this black and white English TV series called Robin Hood. I think it ran in the UK and in the US maybe like '55, '56, through '59. It wasn't really a campy version, but back in those years, it certainly wasn't gritty. And it starred Richard Green as Robin Hood, and every episode was him battling the Sheriff of Nottingham and Prince John, fighting for the oppressed. You had his love interest Maid Marian who back then, as in the traditional version, she was in the court of Prince John, Sheriff of Nottingham. And she would basically get the scuttlebutt, and pass it on to Robin Hood. "Hey, something's coming down, you better..." Like a spy in the court, so nobody kind of knew.




Warwick Fairfax:

And yeah, it's not really a gritty Robin Hood, but it's just this classic series. A little bit like the black and white version of Zorro in the sixties with Guy Williams, similar kind of TV series. It was somewhat serious, but it wasn't gritty. And it was the underdog, I mean, Zorro's somewhat similar in that sense. An aristocrat who's fighting for the oppressed. Somewhat similar beats, but yeah, it was just a fun series and I loved it. Had a...




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, I was going to say, and there's one of the reasons why you loved it, and fifties TV shows in particular were good at this, and that was the series theme song. I think of the Lone Ranger had a great theme song, and Zorro had a great theme song. And this particular Robin Hood series in the fifties had a great theme song, and we're going to let listeners hear it right now.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, does that bring back warm memories for you, Warwick, when you hear that theme song?




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh, it does. I love that opening scene where you see Robin Hood pull back the bow and the swish of the arrow as it hits the tree. And then, the ending theme tune, which was over the credits. And just that line, I won't sing it. You just heard the music, but it says, "Robin Hood, Robin Hood riding through the glen. Robin Hood, Robin Hood with his band of men. Feared by the bad, loved by the good. Robin Hood, Robin Hood, Robin Hood." I mean, that's iconic, mythic stuff. It's no wonder that Robin Hood is this amazing figure, both in the silver screen, as well as in TV series. It's such a wonderful character.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, and my special Robin Hood story is a little bit different. It's the 1964 musical film, Robin and the Seven Hoods. Get it? Robin and the Seven Hoods. It's a play on words, but it stars Frank Sinatra, and Dean Martin, and Sammy Davis Jr. It's one of their rat pack films, and I love it. And I actually know a bit about it because I just wrote about it in my new book, Frank Sinatra on the Big Screen, the Singer as Actor and Filmmaker. The thing about that movie that was so great is, it was a great conceit that they set up. Frank Sinatra, who plays Robbo, and his merry men, who are all his kind of associated hoods, are good natured hoods in prohibition era Chicago. This whole idea of taking from the rich and giving to the poor turns into kind of this PR stunt that Robin does, where he raises money for a charity to help disadvantaged kids.




Gary Schneeberger:

And at first, it starts out as he just wants to do it as PR because, "Oh, look at Robbo!" Because he wants to get ahead of Guy Gisbourne, played by Peter Falk, who just steals the movie. He wants to make sure he can stay a step ahead of him in the battle for who's going to control the city's illegal liquor. Not often a phrase you hear with Robin Hood, by the way, illegal liquor, but that's true in Robin and the Seven Hoods. Even in that movie, which is a comedy, which is a musical, has some great moments in it. It's got Sinatra singing, which is everything. Bing Crosby plays Alan-a-Dale, one of Robin Hood's merry men. In this movie, he comes alongside as kind of the accountant to Robbo to keep track of all these donations that are coming in for the kids.




Gary Schneeberger:

But there's a great scene in that movie, that's musical, as well, that speaks to this idea of taking from those who have, and giving to those who don't, and about building character. Bing Crosby sings a song to these orphan children as they're going to bed. It's like a bedtime... Not a lullaby, but a bedtime kind of "Okay, quick, go to bed now." Song. And again, it speaks to this spirit of the character that we're talking about. And that song, we'll play a little bit for you right here. It's called, Don't Be a Do Badder.




Gary Schneeberger:

Now all day, I am going to be in my head singing, "Don't be a do badder, a do badder." Cause that's one of the only songs I've ever heard that has a rhyme for step ladder in it, but there it is. So, there's our intermission. Intermission is over. I just thought we'd do that to kind of give you a feel for one of the things we want this series to be, is informational and inspirational, but also fun. And hopefully, Warwick, kind of recalling his days of watching Robin Hood on TV, and me snapping my fingers to Don't Be a Do Badder makes you smile. Going back to Robin Hood 2010 with Russell Crowe, he returns to England. He's got the sword. He's going to return it to Sir Walter Locksley. And when he gets there, he meets Sir Walter and Sir Walter's daughter-in-law, Lady Marian.




Gary Schneeberger:

So this is Robert's wife, now widow, though she doesn't know it quite yet. And he ultimately pretends to be Sir Robert, at the urging of Sir Walter. So Sir Walter says, "Okay, things are kind of unstable here. We need some stability. We need to have the people who are trying to oppress us to believe that my son has come home." So Robin Longstride impersonates Robert Locksley when he is back in England because they need a man of grit and strength to help them survive kind of what's happening back home in England. As that beat plays out, how does that feel for you as Robin begins to step into a different identity than he's known? And I think that's a nice bridge to what ends up being his life of significance.




Warwick Fairfax:

We have opportunities in life, in which you make a choice just to follow our own path and the sense of do what we want to do, but not in a good sense, just, "Hey, I want to do it because it's just about me. I don't care about anybody else." But we have opportunities in which we can decide, "Okay, is life more than me? Maybe I need to serve my fellow man, my fellow men and women." And in this case, Sir Walter Locksley, who's I think in his eighties at the time, he's pretty much blind. He knows that without an heir, that everything will be taken away by King John and the Sheriff of Nottingham.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so he says, "Look, for the moment... My son is dead. I want you..." It's 10 years later in the crusades, 10 years is a long time. He was young when he left. "I want you to play my son." And Robin does that, not for his own glory. It's like, "This old man needs me. He's going to tell me more about my father and about the sword." He doesn't get the full story yet. "And if I can help Sir Walter Locksley and Marian, and the people in the village around Nottingham, then I will."




Warwick Fairfax:

So it wasn't about glory, it was about serving other people and helping to fight oppression. Cause if he doesn't take that up, it's going to mean all those people that live in that village are going to be ripe for oppression and persecution by King John and his henchmen. So this is what Robin's thinking, "Okay. If I don't do this, bad things will happen to regular folks. So, what am I going to do?" He says, "Well, if I need to play this guy for the sake of protecting people, then I will." It is a noble decision, in the best sense of that word.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I love this discussion because we've used the word noble in different contexts several times. And it truly is. There's the nobility of position, which is not what Robin's after. There's the nobility of character that he exhibits over and over and over again. The next big scene you heard, listener, we played it at the outset of the show, is when Robin does learn the truth about his own father. It's told to him by Sir Walter, and it's a moment, and I'll let Warwick give the details of it because he understands this stuff a little better than I do. But in that moment, Robin receives something we talk about often at Crucible Leadership, and that is a legacy. He learns some things that his father left behind, ideas and actions that inspired citizens when his father was alive, and can inspire them again. And so Warwick, what is it? Unpack that clip that we played at the outset of what Sir Walter tells Robin and what he learns about his dad and why that's so meaningful.




Warwick Fairfax:

So in the clip, we see Robin with his father around the stone monument in the center of a town. And what he learns from Sir Walter Locksley, is that Robin's father, he was a stone mason, which is a noble profession. You got to be very skilled, but as noble as that profession is, he was more than a stone mason. He's told that his father was a visionary, a philosopher. In one sense, although they don't use that word, he was really revolutionary, in the best sense of that word. When he wrote those words, "Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions." On that stone, he was really talking about the concept of freedom, of liberty, is what he was really talking about.




Warwick Fairfax:

Sir Walter Locksley says, "We took up his call for the rights from baron to serf." In other words, from noble, to just the regular person, to anybody. One of the things that Robin's father was doing, was organizing a charter. And there were names on that charter with people who really wanted to fight that everybody would have rights, would have liberty. And he was executed because Robin's father would not give up the names on that charter. One of them was, indeed, Sir Walter Locksley, and some other characters that we see.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's important to say, because we said earlier, Robin believed, for his whole adult life, and his youthful life after age six, he believed his father abandoned him. And one of the things that's going on in this scene, is he realizes, not only did his father not abandon him, but his father lived a noble life in the sense of noble character.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. And we always talk about, you can't inherit a legacy. This is one exception in which Robin, in a sense, did. We would see that this legacy of fighting for the oppressed, of fighting for liberty, even before Robin knew his father's full legacy, that's who he was. In some sense, I don't know if it was inherited or it was just innate, or learnt, but in this sense, it's one thing inheriting some family business legacy, but a legacy in terms of standing up for the oppressed and for freedom and liberty, that's a powerful legacy. That'll be a harder thing to say, "Well, okay, Dad, Mom, I know you were for liberty, and freedom, but ah, I'm not really into that." It really, in a sense, his father's legacy, was a legacy of significance, of living a life on purpose helping others. All of us, if we are so blessed to have that legacy from our parents, that's a legacy.




Warwick Fairfax:

And that may mean different things for us, but that legacy of serving others, a life of significance, and that was the legacy he inherited, which I'm sure as he fully understood it, I'm sure it meant the world to Robin. My dad was a great man. He died to keep the names of those who wanted to fight for freedom and for rights out of the hands of the wicked rulers at the time. So that's just so powerful, that legacy that Robin realized, "My dad was a revolutionary, a philosopher, a visionary, a champion of the oppressed. That's my dad?" He'd had no clue before. I mean, that is just an incredible scene.




Gary Schneeberger:

To the point of whether he inherited the legacy, you can't inherit a vision, you can't inherit a legacy. I don't know that he inherited as much as he continued it, meaning he'd already, as you just indicated, and we've been talking about, Robin had already been living a life of significance. His arrow, no pun intended, was pointed toward a life of significance. So when he learns this, that gives him a chance to adopt that thing that his father was doing and add that to his quiver. Again, I keep making puns about arrows, but he gets to add that aspect of what his father was doing to the quiver that he has of his life of significance of helping people. As he picked up that mantle that his father had established and that was interrupted by his being murdered, as he picks up that mantle, Warwick, there's something pretty significant that happens in the movie, and then just kind of in the arc of history. Unpack that a little bit for listeners.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, there's a great scene where sort of the origin of the Magna Carta happens, which has been an inspiration for Britain and indeed the United States, this concept of liberty that happened in the Magna Carta, which we see a bit in this movie. And so, what happens after Robin hears about his heritage, at some point after that from Sir Walter Locksley, basically Sir Walter Locksley has been sent a message that Northern barons are gathering. Gottfried, we see in the movie, is plotting to create a civil war so that the Northern barons will attack King John. And while they're at each other's throats in some massive civil war, along will come, I believe it's King Philip of France, and invade England and take it over. So, this is all part of a plot deliberately.




Warwick Fairfax:

So basically, Walter is too old, and so he sends Robin in his place to represent him. In fact, he says to Robin, "Come at the hour, come at the man." Which I'm sure we've all heard before, a great phrase. So here he goes to, in the movie, Barnsdale. He passes that very monument that we saw in that clip, it's actually in the town, where they're going to have this discussion about the Magna Carta and the Charter, at least in the movie anyway. So he sees that, and it's, again, he's sort of hit between the eyes, thunder struck, if you will, and is like, "Wow, I'm going to this big meeting. And those words are ringing in my ears. Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions." Then Robin gives this unbelievable speech in which he says, in front of King John and the other nobles, "Can I say something?" Well, they think of him as Sir Robert of Locksley. They don't really know who he is.




Warwick Fairfax:

So he is a noble, every noble has the right to speak in this meeting. And so he says to the people and the king, the following. He says, "If you are trying to build for the future, you must set your foundation strong. The laws of this land enslave people to its king. A king who demands loyalty, but offers nothing in return. I have marched to Palestine and back, and I know in tyranny lies only failure. You build a country like you build a cathedral, from the ground up. Empower every man and you, the king, will gain strength. If your majesty were to offer justice in the form of a charter of liberties, allow every man to forage for his half, to be safe from conviction without cause, or prison without charge, to work, eat, work at the sweat of your brow, to be as merry as you can, the king will be great. Not only will he receive the loyalty of his people, but their love, as well."




Warwick Fairfax:

And King John kind of scarfs at this a bit. Eventually Robin says, "What would have your majesty as liberty, liberty by law?" Well, at that point, King John is between a rock and a hard place. He knows the French are about to attack. He knows if the nobles are divided, he'll lose. So in the movie, he grudgingly says, "Sure, I'll sign this charter." Or "I'll sign the charter once we win." Later in the movie, we find he rips it up. In real life, it is true that the Magna Carta, which was in Runnymede, south of England, near Windsor, was something that was drawn up that really did reclaim rights. It's grown to mythic proportions.




Warwick Fairfax:

Later on, and certainly in the eyes of the founders of the United States, one of their inspirations was the Magna Carta. And as they saw it, which is a little bit mythic about Robin Hood, they saw the Magna Carta as guaranteeing the rights to every person to trial by jury. So a little bit expanded perhaps, originally it was more about the rights of nobles, but it took on mythic proportions. So in the sense, back to Robin Longstride, here he gives this speech, and really, he's inheriting his father's mantel about the charter, and now the Magna Carta. It's almost the same legacy, in a sense. And here he is, at least in this mythic portrayal, he's in this key moment where the Magna Carta is drawn up, that will influence democracies around the world for centuries, including influencing the very forming of the United States.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, talk about a legacy of significance. You are at a place where you are advocating for liberty and freedom against tyranny that will affect countries all over the world for hundreds of years and for generations. I mean, not many of us will have that kind of life of significance. But Robin wasn't thinking that, he's thinking, "Look, if we don't do something, France is going to conquer this country. We've got to unite people. And I want to fight for freedom and liberty." So he's not thinking about the big legacy picture, he's just thinking, "Look, something needs to be done here. We need to be united and we need to use this opportunity to fight for freedom and liberty." It's an incredible scene.




Gary Schneeberger:

We talk a lot at Beyond the Crucible and Crucible Leadership about the power of just taking one small step toward your goal. And as I think back over what we've just talked about for the last hour or so, Robin Longstride's life, that we've just unpacked, is a series of one small steps. Step one, he tells King Richard the truth about what he feels about the Crusades. He has the courage to do that, where no one else does. Step two, he agrees, even though he doesn't really know Robert Locksley, to take the sword that Robert Locksley had taken from his father and caused some estrangement there, he agrees to take that back to England and give it to his father. He steps into the role of Robert Locksley when Robert Locksley's father asks him to do so, to help bring some stability and some strength to what is turning into a very bad situation for the people of England when he gets back there.




Gary Schneeberger:

He takes this small step of speaking in the meeting where they're talking about this charter. And then, he takes, for him, was probably a small step, but not a small step in the movie, in that he takes a leading role. The next step he takes toward his life of significance is a leading role in the turning away of the French forces when they try to lay siege to England. And ultimately, preserving the freedom of England, not to be under France's rule. That's, again, another step he took to do that by fighting on the front lines to get that accomplished. Fascinating, isn't it? How his life is a series... What we just talked about, is a series of small steps that lead to a life of significance.




Warwick Fairfax:

It really is. I mean, that's one of the last scenes of the movie, the battle scenes. It's sort of epic when all the forces in England unite. The nobles may not like King John, but they don't want to be overtaken by France. So, the greater enemy is the important one. And they're probably skeptical that John will live up to the charter, but one lives in hope. But meanwhile, the greater enemy is France. So here they are, they come to this cliff, and there's this great scene where one of the key honorable figures in English nobility, man that by the name of Marshall, who's fighting for justice. He leads the cavalry on the beach and Robin leads the archers on the cliff, and the archers rain down all of these arrows on the French forces.




Warwick Fairfax:

And as the French king is in his ship about to send his forces in, he says, "Well, this doesn't look like a country at war with itself. This looks like you're united."I mean, as French would say, "Mon Dieu." Which is, "My God." I don't know if he says that in the movie, but it's the kind of thing a Frenchman would say at that point. It's like, "Uh-oh." Would be the rough English translation, "I'm in trouble."




Warwick Fairfax:

Obviously, as you see the movie, the English forces win, they turn back the French. The evil English slash Frenchman henchman Gottfried gets killed by an arrow in an incredible shot by Robin. But one of the sad things, as we sort of wind up the movie, I think King John maybe asked Marshall, this good noble, "Who are they cheering for?" And it's like, "They're cheering for Robin." I don't know if everybody realized, he's just a regular guy. He's a regular guy that helps have a massive role in saving England from the French. Well, as we'll see, King John is not a noble of character and he doesn't like it when a person he discovers to be this regular guy is cheered for. So yes, the adulation that the troops give Robin, as we'll see, prove to be his undoing. No fault of Robin's, but King John is not one to play second fiddle, unfortunately.




Gary Schneeberger:

No. And as you have indicated, he tears up the charter and he declares Robin an outlaw. And what's beautiful about that, from the perspective of what we've been talking about in terms of the Robin Hood legend, is this truly has been an origin story. You realize at that moment, when the Sheriff of Nottingham is going to hang a sign saying that Robin's an outlaw. And he asks, "I need a nail." Next thing that happens, an arrow splits his fingers, doesn't go through his fingers, but it goes in between his fingers, and nails it to the tree. And that is the launching of Robin Hood as this figure who will take from the comfortable and the oppressors and give to the oppressed. And that's when you kind of realize as a movie goer, was kind of a fun scene. It's like, "Oh, what I've been watching was a complete origin story." Just like how Spider-Man becomes Spider-Man, or Batman becomes Batman.




Gary Schneeberger:

It's a film, it's a movie length origin story, backstory that tells how Robin Hood becomes Robin Hood. And there's lots of lessons to learn along the way that we can kind of put in our pockets as we begin to move out from our origin story and to pursue our life of significance, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. What's fascinating about this ending of the Robin Hood movie with Russell Crowe, is it's not really a happy ending. He helps to create what would become the Magna Carta. It was ripped up at the moment, but it did come to live on in English history and world history. He becomes an outlaw. Why? Well, because he helps save his country and King John didn't like the adulation. He was jealous. And so, because of all the good he did, the good he did proved his undoing. So one of the lessons in life, is sometimes when you do good, other people get jealous and they don't like it. So just because you live a life of significance and want to defend the oppressed and fight for liberty, it doesn't always work out well. There's not always a happy ending.




Warwick Fairfax:

In this sense, it's not a happy ending. But my sense, as we see the closing scenes of the movie, where Robin is in, what one would assume, is Sherwood Forest, with Marian. They're happy with the outlaws and protecting the oppressed. I doubt that they bear a grudge, but it's sort of a sad ending between the traditional one, like a 1938 version of Robin Hood with Errol Flynn. King Richard comes back from the Crusades, and all is well. He gets the girl, Marian, he gets his titles back and all is good.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, life isn't always like a fairytale. And in some sense, is this more realistic? Maybe. But he lives his life of significance. He lives his convictions, whether or not fame or fortune comes to him. And in the end, fame and fortune do not come to him. He is on the run from the evil King John, but yet I'm sure if you asked him, "Do you regret what you did? Do you regret saving England from the French? Do you regret upholding your father's charter? Do you regret fighting for liberty and freedom?" He'd say, "No. I may die, but I will have lived a life that I feel like I, and those who know me, can be proud of." So, it's a great story.




Gary Schneeberger:

And in the context of this series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, where we're talking about movie heroes, it's not an uncommon ending to a story. Think of Spider-Man, who we're going to talk about next week. Spider-Man is a character who a lot of people think, especially the publisher of the Daily Bugle, J. Jonah Jameson, thinks he's a villain, doesn't think he's a good guy. The Hulk isn't thought of as a hero. A lot of the heroes that we have talked about, and will talk about, Batman, he's a vigilante. He's a bad guy. There is a little bit of that. And I think from the perspective of Robin Hood, or some of these other heroes that I've just talked about, that idea of being not a happy ending, not being able to rest, I think that fuels them to continue their life of significance in some way.




Gary Schneeberger:

And they probably look at that as... I mean, Robin Hood's life of significance is to defend the oppressed. And when you defend the oppressed, those doing the oppressing are going to be after you. So I think, he probably welcomes that in some way. That allows him to keep on keeping on in his life of significance. So as we wrap up here, Warwick, what's the last, of all the things that we've talked about, pull the balloon strings together, and let listeners know what's the chief learning, maybe, from Robin Hood.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, there's probably a couple, but I love the fact that Robin is living his father's legacy, but yet it's his own legacy of fighting for the oppressed, fighting for the rights of men and women for liberty, equality. Giving people, whether they be noble or serf, as his father puts it, equal rights. When you live your whole life, and that's your life of significance, in a sense, it doesn't get any better than that. That's a wonderful legacy to be living. But realize, as you live your life as significance, sometimes things will go well for you, but sometimes, it won't lead to fame and fortune, nor will you always be seen as the hero. Sometimes you'll be vilified. Certainly the oppressed like Robin Hood, but the nobility who he was upsetting the apple cart, not so much.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so, you've got to live your life of significance, not so much because of what other people think, but what you think in your inner core, what lines up with your own spirituality and faith and values. So a life of significance, it's not a popularity contest. It's meant to be something that's rooted in your inner values, be it fame, fortune, be it approval, or condemnation, it's living what you believe in the service of a greater cause and service of others. That's what a life of significance should be, and really, Robin Hood models that so well.




Gary Schneeberger:

I'd say that the plane has landed, but we've been talking about arrows, so the arrow has found its mark, Warwick. We have wrapped another episode of Beyond the Crucible's special summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles. And next week, I've said it a couple times already, but next week, if you want to do a little homework, not homework, a little bit of fun, watch a movie with your family, enjoy it. We're going to be talking about Spider-man next week. And the movie that we're going to drill in on most is the first one with Tobey Maguire. It was just called Spider-man. So that's the one that we're going to drill in, but there's a lot of iterations to talk about. So really, any Spider-Man movie you want to pop in, we're probably going to be able to touch on that when we have our conversation.




Gary Schneeberger:

So until that time happens next week, listener, thank you for spending time with us on this episode. And please remember that we do understand how painful crucible experiences are. We know it's difficult, we know it can knock the wind out of your sails, and it can change the trajectory of your life, but we also know that crucibles aren't the end of your story. When you learn the lessons of them, when you apply those lessons, as you move forward to a life of significance, that journey can take you to the greatest chapter of the greatest story of your life. Why? Because where it leads you to is a life of significance.

The life we learn with … and the life we live with after that. Those words come from THE NATURAL, the film we discuss on this week’s episode of our summer series LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure. It’s hard to think of a better way to express the truths we try to share each week on this show: offering hope and practical action steps to learn the lessons of your crucibles in order to chart a course to a life of significance.

Highlights

The roots of Warwick’s love of THE NATURAL (3:18)
Why Roy Hobbs qualifies as a hero (4:39)
Thinking back to better times (7:13)
The dangers of relying on natural talent (10:15)
Making Wonderboy (13:06)
Roy’s teenage moment in the sun … and the crucible that follows (16:13)
The signs he missed about Harriet Byrd (20:39)
Sixteen years later, Roy finally gets his shot (25:59)
Setting the league on fire (28:24)
Roy’s romantic distraction, and the crucibles it causes (33:48)
Learning the lesson of our crucibles is not a one-and-done proposition (35:10)
Roy’s “white angel” who gets him back on track (41:21)
The final crucibles, and how Iris helps him overcome them (46:56)
Roy’s triumphant moment (54:46)
Roy Hobbs’ ultimate life of significance (1:03:09)
Reflecting on the episode (1:08:42)

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.




Iris Gaines:

You're so good now.




Roy Hobbs:

I could have been better. I could have broke every record in the book.




Iris Gaines:

And then?




Roy Hobbs:

And then, when I walked down the street, people would've looked and they would've said, "There goes Roy Hobbs, the best there ever was in this game."




Iris Gaines:

Now I believe we have two lives.




Roy Hobbs:

What do you mean?




Iris Gaines:

Life we learn with and the life we live with after that.




Gary Schneeberger:

The life we learn with and the life we live with after that. It's hard to think of a better way to express the truths we try to share each week on this show, offering hope and practical action steps to learn the lessons of your crucibles in order to chart a course to a life of significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. That clip you just heard is from The Natural, the 1984 movie that Warwick and I discuss this week on episode three of our special summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, what our favorite movie heroes can teach us about overcoming setbacks and failure.




Gary Schneeberger:

It's one of the best baseball movies ever made, but that's just one reason we're dropping this episode on the day of the Major League Baseball All-Star Game. We're covering it in this series because it's a rousing story of the redemption of its hero, the other worldly, talented ballplayer, Roy Hobbs, and how he learns that talent alone is insufficient if we want to live lives on purpose dedicated to serving others.




Gary Schneeberger:

For that, we need to sharpen our character, as well as our skills, and surround ourselves with those who believe in us and challenge us on our journey to making our vision a reality no matter how long it might take.




Gary Schneeberger:

We are in the midst of a summer series that we're doing called, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, what your favorite movie heroes can teach you about overcoming setback and failure. And this week after the first two weeks, we talked about Captain America, week one. We talked about Batman, week two, from Marvel to DC. Now we're moving out of superheroes all together.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, no, at least costume superheroes. Perhaps, uniformed superheroes this time. We're going to talk about the 1984 film, The Natural, starring Robert Redford as the quintessential unbelievable baseball player who is Roy Hobbs.




Gary Schneeberger:

We've already talked a little bit, Warwick, before we hit record here about some of the things that we want to talk about. I mean, this is a movie we both love a lot. You've loved this movie for quite a bit of time I believe, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. It's funny as you say, this came out in 1984. I was living in New York City at the time. It's in my Chase Man Bank days before I went to Harvard Business School three years before I did my own takeover, if you will, $2B plus of Fairfax Media.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, I've always loved stories and movies about redemption. And this is a movie all about redemption. So, little did I know how much need I'd have of redemption in 1984. We'll talk about foreshadowing. This foreshadowed some redemption I would dearly need after my failed take over. But this was three years before it happened.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, I loved the movie when I saw it in New York City. And it's been one of my all-time favorite movies ever since, because of just this sense of redemption that Roy Hobbs goes through.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I am indeed wearing Roy Hobbs's jersey. And while I'm righthanded, not lefthanded, I did indeed bring a baseball and a glove to our recording because of course you do. I have a New York Knights hat and a New York Knights jersey. There, so as you can see is the lightning bolt, which we'll talk more about. We'll talk more about all of this, listener. Just in case anybody wants to play catch while we're doing this show, I've got a glove right here where we can do that.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, talking about The Natural, let's level set this for listeners, Warwick. It's the story I said earlier of the man who wore this jersey, number nine on the back, Roy Hobbs. And Roy Hobbs is a lot of things.




Gary Schneeberger:

But for the purposes of starting our discussion, we'll say that Roy Hobbs is a man who makes some poor choices sometimes, has some really difficult, challenging, almost certainly life-threatening things happened to him. He struggles as a young man with confidence and maybe some holes in his character.




Gary Schneeberger:

But the overarching theme why we're talking about Roy Hobbs on this series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, about how you can learn lessons from movie heroes to overcome your own crucibles is because Roy Hobbs is someone who becomes a hero, who gets included in this summer series because he learns the lessons of his setbacks and his failures, and even those stumbles and missteps that he took. That's a pretty fair, big picture assessment of who we're talking about today, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean, Roy Hobbs, as many of us do as a teenager, makes some poor choices that have as we'll see life-altering consequences. And he does learn the lessons. One of the hardest things as we'll see that he has to overcome is he is unsparing of himself. He just crucifies himself for the mistakes he made.




Warwick Fairfax:

And there are many of us out there, myself included with my own crucible in which I was as hard on myself in the mistakes I made as anybody. And so, for many of us, the mistake is one thing, owning up to it is one thing, but forgiving yourself and moving beyond your mistakes, it's for many of us just forgiving yourself at just mind numbing what we believe is horrendously stupid, poor decisions, it's tough.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's almost one of the toughest frontiers for many of us is even if others will forgive us, and not everybody will, forgiving ourselves, my gosh, that's so hard. And if you don't do that, you don't move on, the life significance won't happen. So, that's one of the key beats of the story of Roy Hobbs as we'll see.




Gary Schneeberger:

When you watch the movie, The Natural, that's the first picture we get of Roy Hobbs, right? We first see him and he is at a train station and he's got a thousand-yard stare in his eyes. He's very quiet of both body and face. He looks weary by life. It's clear that this is a man who knows his way around crucibles. This is a man who's not had an easy life.




Gary Schneeberger:

We don't know what those crucibles were. We don't know what caused them, but we know that he's a man who's heavy-laden. That look, that sense that Roy Hobbs has lived a difficult existence up until the point we meet him as viewers continues when he's on the train. We don't know where he is going, but we know he's going there with a heavy heart in many ways.




Gary Schneeberger:

But he does what a lot of us do. And this is our first inkling into who Roy Hobbs really is is he does what a lot of us do when we're feeling a little weary, when we're feeling heavy-hearted, when we're feeling lost or depressed, or looking for direction.




Gary Schneeberger:

Roy Hobbs on that train begins to dream of the things that he loves. And what he loves, where his mind takes him back to, is his love of baseball. And the first time we see Roy as a young boy that he thinks back on, he's playing baseball with his dad on the family farm. Not only is he having a good time doing it, but based on what we see, Roy's a pretty good baseball player.




Gary Schneeberger:

Roy's someone who... the name of the film is The Natural because Roy appears to have some pretty great natural talent. And he exhibits that while his dad paints a strike zone on the fence of the family farm and Roy pitches it and he blows a hole in the fence. That's a kid who's got a pretty good fastball, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. There are some young people that, whether it's baseball, football, whatever the sport is, tennis, they could almost play anything they want to and they're fantastic. I remember Bo Jackson as some will remember was a standout baseball player.




Warwick Fairfax:

Many top athletes, they go play golf and they're a two or three handicap max. And golf's not their main sport, but they're just so gifted. Roy Hobbs was one of those people, one of those kids that had, you would almost say, this God-given talent. It was off the charts.




Gary Schneeberger:

And what's interesting about that, and it's a great segue into one of the first crucible leadership moments that comes out of this movie, that a spotlight is really shown on a lot of key principles of crucible leadership in the movie, The Natural. But the first one comes right after Roy breaks that fence with his fastball.




Gary Schneeberger:

His dad who is playing with him and also coaching him says to him, "You've got a gift, Roy, but it's not enough. You've got to develop it. You rely too much on your own gift and you'll fail." And the truth of that, right, is something that we talk about on Crucible Leadership all the time and Beyond the Crucible all the time.




Gary Schneeberger:

Our roads back from crucibles and our roads to lives of significance require our gifts and talents for sure, but they also require lifelong learning in the areas where we want to have that impact and in our own character and authenticity. That's what Roy Hobbs's dad is trying to tell him, "You can't just rely on your natural gifts. You have to develop them." And as we say in Beyond the Crucible, you have to learn from the experiences that life hands you. Fair?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I'm reminded. It just came to mind. There's this saying in Greek mythology, there's Greek Gods, Zeus, Athena, all those. They would say something like, "Who the gods would bring down, they would first favor."




Warwick Fairfax:

Basically, the notion is it's really hard when you're incredibly gifted. And life is easy at least in the sense for Roy. He's so good at baseball. It's like how can he miss? Everybody talks about the sure thing, right? He's got this.




Warwick Fairfax:

But very often you'll see in sports, people that are so talented as teenagers, they never really make it later on in whatever the sport is because they don't have the grit, the resilience, the determination because it's all so easy. And there are other athletes who don't have as much raw talent, but they have the determination, the grit, the staying power.




Warwick Fairfax:

Sometimes great gifts can be a curse at such a young age. It feels like you don't have to work for it. Hitting a homerun, that's easy. Hitting a fastball or throwing a fastball for a strike that nobody can hit, that's not a tough thing. So, sometimes having great gifts can be a crucible because you take it for granted and you don't do what Roy's dad says. You don't develop it.




Warwick Fairfax:

The sad thing is sometimes it takes some hard knocks to fully understand I guess how profound that comment that Roy's dad said. I don't think Roy understood what his dad was saying. Sadly, he would understand it in the years to come.




Gary Schneeberger:

And he understands it a little bit a lot in the next scene in the film. After playing catch with his boy, Mr. Hobbs has a heart attack on the family farm and dies, as Roy watches him die. Roy has actually very sweet scene. Roy is laying on his dad's chest while his dad passes away. And that's his first real crucible that we see.




Gary Schneeberger:

Here's this kid who has all the talent in the world it looks like, who is probably dreaming, as young boys do if they're good at sports, of a career doing that. And then, the one person who could make sure he followed that advice to not rest on his laurels, to not just camp on his talent, but to develop that talent, is gone. Roy loses his rudder in that moment. And it doesn't take long for him to veer off course we learn pretty quickly after that.




Gary Schneeberger:

Interesting scene happens before we get to see Roy struggling in the early days of his young life when he's a teenager in early twenties, lightning. There's a storm the night his dad dies. And lightning strikes this big tree on the family farm. Roy's looking at his window. He watches the tree go down when the lightning hits it.




Gary Schneeberger:

He salvages some wood from that tree and he makes a baseball bat from it. He burns with one of those wood burners. He burns the word Wonderboy on it. We wonder, is that a nickname that he's gotten from being such a good baseball player because he's growing up as a young boy? But Roy burns Wonderboy on that bat. And he puts a lightning bolt in it.




Gary Schneeberger:

There's another crucible leadership I think, Warwick, in that is that when something is destroyed like the family tree was, something beautiful and special and helpful to our journey forward can be built from it if we put in the work. I don't think young Roy Hobbs, 10-year-old, 12-year-old Roy Hobbs understands that when he is doing it, but I think he comes to understand that as time goes on.




Gary Schneeberger:

He takes that tree that is knocked down. That was devastating because the tree probably meant something to him the way that he reacts when it goes down. He takes what was broken and he makes something of it that's not only beautiful that he comes to treasure, but ends up helping him on his journey to a life of significance.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. I mean, this is really another example of some foreshadowing of Roy is going to go through some really tough trials, I don't want to say worse, but in some sense, even almost worse than losing his dad. But out of just some of the devastation and the pain, something beautiful can happen in a sense if we allow.




Warwick Fairfax:

You're very smart to bring that up just the way his whole bat, Wonderboy, is created. Out of pain can come purpose, can come redemption, and that was to happen in Roy Hobbs's life. So, it's really an early foreshadowing of using pain for a purpose that would come about.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And we'll talk more about it. One of the things I loved about this movie, even before we decided today or in 2022 that we're going to do a podcast series on it, I've loved it since it first came out because there's a lot of really great moving foreshadowing. And that's exactly one of those moments that you talk about.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, the movie then flashes forward a few years and a teenage Roy. And you have to suspend disbelief a little bit sometimes in hero movies because Robert Redford was in his forties and he's playing a teenager. So, they shoot him through a lot of fuzzy lenses, right? But you have to believe that's the case that 40 something year old Robert Redford's a teenager in these scenes, 18, 19, something like that.




Gary Schneeberger:

And he's kept playing baseball through the years because he's about to go to Chicago for a tryout with of course the greatest team in the history of baseball, the Chicago Cubs. As a family of Chicago Cubs, there's my Cubs wristwatch right there.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, he's got to be good if a pro team wants to take a look at him. And he meets before he heads off on the train that night with the girl next door. She's the proverbial girl next door in movies like this. And he tells her, "I've got to reach for the best that is in me." That's what he says to Iris, this girl next door whom he loves.




Gary Schneeberger:

He's trying to live up to dad's exhortation, right? "I've got to reach for the best that's in me as I head off on this journey." He and Iris then share... they sleep together. She's his girl and he's going off. And what we come to learn pretty quickly, he's going off with perhaps a little naivety, certainly with not a lot of experience. And some things happen to him on that train trip that will forever alter his life, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, absolutely. You've got this young Roy Hobbs, 18, 19. He's could be one of the greatest pitchers in baseball. And it's ironic that he meets... I think you mentioned The Whammer, this Babe Ruth figure who started off as a pitcher and became a hitter. Another bit of foreshadowing of Roy Hobbs. But it seems like he's got the world before him. And what could go wrong? It's an eerie time as he's heading on that train to Chicago.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. As you said, I hadn't mentioned it yet, but you've introduced The Whammer. The Whammer is Babe Ruth, right? They can't use Babe Ruth's name in the movie I guess, so they call him The Whammer. And he is the Major League Baseball's homerun king. And he's obviously modeled after Babe Ruth. This scene right now takes place in the early 1920s. And Babe Ruth was already by that time known as The Sultan of Swat in Major League Baseball.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, Roy's got an agent, this kindly old man who's accompanying him on the train. And they meet up not only with The Whammer, but also with a sports writer named Max Mercy, deliciously, devilishly played by Robert Duvall who's one of my favorite actors.




Gary Schneeberger:

There's some jawwing going back and forth between Max Mercy and Roy's agent. And basically, his agent who doesn't really have a lot of money bets Max Mercy 10 bucks that Roy Hobbs, this kid on the train, can strike out The Whammer on just three pitches. Well, that seems like an easy bet for someone like Max Mercy when you're talking about a guy who's Babe Ruth, right? That superhuman feats in the sport of baseball.




Gary Schneeberger:

Just three pitches. If one of them goes outside the strike zone, bets off, you lose, agent. If The Whammer fouls one off on the third pitch that's over to anything that's not a strike ends the bet. Three pitched balls. So, they gather to do this. The train has a water stop. They gather. They're there.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's a wonderful scene, which Roy is pitching to The Whammer. And it shows, on those three pitches, the first one gets Max Mercy to back up. He's the umpire. He's like, "Whoa, okay, this kid could be wild." He's like, "Can't believe how fast he throws."




Gary Schneeberger:

The Whammer swings and misses at the second pitch after the first one is really fast and surprises everybody. And then, the third pitch comes and The Whammer swings and misses that. Roy Hobbs strikes out the greatest player in baseball.




Gary Schneeberger:

And something interesting happens at that moment speaking about foreshadowing. There's a woman on the train. Her name's Harriet Bird. We don't know really anything about her, except she's pretty in a big city way. Roy's a boy from the farms of Iowa.




Gary Schneeberger:

The Whammer is trying to impress her with his rings and all his talent. And so, she's walking around with him. And we don't really know why, except she's attracted to the power and the prestige that's in him is what we think. But when that pitch...




Gary Schneeberger:

Two things happen when that third strike comes. The director, Barry Levinson, does a great job of filming Robert Redford as Roy Hobbs throwing the pitch in slow motion. And behind him, the sun is setting, right? I don't think that's an accident. I think that's the director's way of saying, "Even at this moment where it should be the start of this ascension into baseball stardom, the sun's setting on Roy Hobbs in some way."




Gary Schneeberger:

And the next thing that we see too is Harriet Bird, this beautiful somewhat mysterious woman, she's watching The Whammer. She's been all impressed with The Whammer. All of a sudden, Roy strikes the Whammer out and we watched her gaze go from hitter to pitcher. Her eyes are on Roy.




Gary Schneeberger:

And speaking of foreshadowing, what ends up happening to Roy? He meets with her in the dining car even though he has a girl back home. He's young. He's intrigued by this sophisticated woman. He meets her in her hotel room. Something happens to him when he's there that changes his life forever.




Gary Schneeberger:

He walks up into the room and she says to him, "Roy, who has said all along, 'I'm going to be the...'" Even at 18, 19 years old believes he's going to be the best whoever played the game. People will look at him and say, "There goes Roy Hobbs, the best who ever played this game. He's got that talent."




Gary Schneeberger:

And she asks him, wearing a veil, strange as she's outside her room, "Are you going to be the best who ever played the game, Roy?" And he says, "Yes." And then, she pulls out a gun, or she has a gun. She pulls up the gun, fires and shoots him in the stomach area.




Gary Schneeberger:

And then, later after that, they cut to the window of her floor in the hotel room. And the wind's blowing in, clearly indicating that she jumped out of the window. That's a shocking scene to see, but there was some foreshadowing on the train that indicates what Harriet Bird might have been up to, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

I think there's some conversation with some folks on the train basically about, there are a couple other folks that were killed, maybe a boxer, football player. She's turns out that she's this serial killer psychopath that looks for athletes to kill.




Warwick Fairfax:

Now, Roy wasn't to know that, but if you have eyes to see, she looked like trouble. She had that dark quality. She's almost like the dark angel. And we'll see there's an angel of light later on, but they both say similar things, which is eerie in one sense.




Warwick Fairfax:

They have a conversation about, "Are you going to be the best there is?" And he says, "Yes." And Harriet says, "Is that all there is, being the best in baseball? Is that all there is?" And Roy is non-plussed and says, "Well, what else is there?" And she almost laughs at him at a condescending way and says, "Don't you know?"




Warwick Fairfax:

She views him as this priceless, naive young kid when he says, "Can I see you?" And she said, "Oh, you're precious." She's really messed up. But in some ways in her own, screwed up psychopathic way, she finds him endearing.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, she's like a spider. He was drawn right into the web by his naivety, useful arrogance, exuberance, and maybe his moral foundations of letting his girl, Iris, down, or not fully moored and he gets sucked right into the psychopath and pays a terrible price.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that terrible price, again, he doesn't die because the next thing we see is on the screen that says, "Sixteen years later." and we flash forward in Roy Hobbs's life. And 16 years later, he shows up at the park of the New York Knights who are, at the moment we meet them, the worst team in Major League Baseball, certainly in the national league of Major League Baseball.




Gary Schneeberger:

Roy comes there. We come to learn pretty quickly, he's not a pitcher anymore. We don't know exactly why, but we're left. It's pretty obvious assumption that being shot in the stomach took away his ability to throw fastballs the way he could throw. But he's a hitter now. And he was playing semi-pro ball.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the Knights scouts signed him. And that should be the start, right? That should be the start however delayed of his dreams coming true, but it turns it into another crucible for Roy. The manager of that club, Pop Fisher, great baseball name by the way. Pop Fisher. Come on, couldn't have been better.




Gary Schneeberger:

Pop Fisher refuses to play him. He won't even let him take batting practice even though the Knights are truly terrible and could... I mean, it's not going to make them worse. They need a shot in the arm. We come to learn that there're complex forces going on to make the Knights lose.




Gary Schneeberger:

The Judge, that's all we know him by is the Judge, he's the partner that Pop, the manager, had to take on in ownership. Pop has owned also has owned the club. He had to take him on as a partner. And the Judge will get the team all to himself if the Knights fail to win the pennant.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, Pop thinks signing an old rookie like Hobbs. And Hobbs is supposed to be in his mid to late thirties by this time, certainly older than most rookies start playing baseball. Pop thinks this might be the Judge's ploy to get the team to not win the pennant so that Pop loses the team and the Judge gets it.




Gary Schneeberger:

And then, there are other impediments to the Knights' success that are slowly revealed in this section of the film, impediments to the Knights' success. One is a gambler named Gus, played again with just a joyful malevolence by Darren McGavin, and his moll, Memo Paris played by Kim Bassinger.




Gary Schneeberger:

Gus's job is to weasel his way into getting the players to throw games, payoffs, date Memo, do things like that. They throw games. Her job is to distract the players from the goal at hand, which is winning baseball games. But then, something happens that opens the door for Roy to get on the field.




Gary Schneeberger:

The Knights' best player, Bump Bailey, who has been dating Memo and he's been throwing games pretty clearly, he starts to pick it up because Pop threatens he's going to play Hobbs if Bump doesn't get better.




Gary Schneeberger:

Bump starts playing better. He ends up dying in an on-field accident when he runs through the fence. And that leads to Roy finally getting on the field. And it allows him to start living his dream of being the best there ever was in this game. From the moment he gets in games, exciting things start happening, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, it's funny. There's all sorts of twists and turns. We learn that the Judge tells their scout, "Make sure you find people that are hopeless that will guarantee the team will lose." Because if the team loses, then he gets control of the whole team.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so later on, when Roy starts doing well, he says, "What is the deal here? You were meant to find people that were guaranteed to help us lose." "I found some has-been in the middle of nowhere in his mid to late thirties. I did my level best to do what you told me, Judge."




Warwick Fairfax:

So, sometimes in this case, the Judge's own malevolence works against him. And Roy Hobbs gets a second chance when he shouldn't have. Any sane person wouldn't have given a second chance, but he got a second chance just because they wanted to guarantee the team lost. So, the joke's on the Judge there.




Warwick Fairfax:

But again, eerie foreshadowing with Bump Bailey. It seemed like whoever Memo gets involved with, whether it's deliberately or not deliberately, they don't do well. She's like the kiss of death in terms of your ability to play well. So, happens to Bump Bailey, but obviously Roy doesn't see that. But he gets his chance. And after a long time, 15, 16 years, he begins to play well. So, it does seem like life is finally on the up and up for Roy.




Gary Schneeberger:

And playing well is an understatement. I mean, Roy is truly a revelation on the baseball field as a hitter. He's quickly making the news reels. Remember this is 1939. That's the season that this all happens now when Roy takes the field.




Gary Schneeberger:

And kids love him. When he first gets in the game, right, one of the first things he does is he... you've heard the expression, "Knock the cover off the ball." He knocks the cover off the ball, right? It starts raining and he knocks the cover off the ball. That is how great he is.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I haven't shared this with you before now, Warwick, because I want to see how you react to this. But in that montage scene where Roy has just taking it to Major League Baseball and just playing better than anyone has ever played before, there's a scene of baseball cards rolling off a printing press.




Gary Schneeberger:

And this is one of those cards. This was one of the prop cards that rolled down that was created for the movie. That's Roy Hobbs right there. But there's a back of the card. Now, the back of the card, like any baseball card on the back, it lists statistics and career achievements.




Gary Schneeberger:

And here's the statistics that Roy Hobbs puts together in 1939. He played 72 games. Remember, he comes in the middle of the season when the Knights are doing poorly. He has 307 at-bats, 171 hits, 42 doubles, 13 triples, 51 homeruns in 72 games, and 307 at-bats with 106 RBIs. His bat in average, .557.




Gary Schneeberger:

Now, I did some number crunching here. The greatest players in baseball history, the most prolific homerun hitters in real-life Major League Baseball history, Babe Ruth averaged in one season about 8 at bats for every homerun.




Gary Schneeberger:

What this computes to if he stepped to the plate 307 times and hit 51 homeruns, Roy Hobbs hit a homerun every six times he came to the plate. He is better than anybody. Truly, he is the best who ever played the game. This covers everything about Roy's career. It's fascinating that they actually put numbers to that. And that's who he is. I mean, what's your reaction to that? Batting .557 and hits a homerun every six times he came to the plate?




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, you would know better than I, but has anybody else ever batted 557 in the season?




Gary Schneeberger:

No.




Warwick Fairfax:

Again, you know baseball more than I do, but the guy, the Boston Red Sox-




Gary Schneeberger:

Ed Williams?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Well, he was 400 and you think, "Oh, you're 400. You're incredible, but it's very, very few." I mean, if that season was representative, he truly would've been the best there ever was. Nobody would touch that. That's an incredible card. And those statistics just paint the picture of The Natural. He was the best there ever was.




Gary Schneeberger:

But then, some things happened in the film that indicate that perhaps Roy hasn't completely learned the lesson of his crucible. He begins dating Memo, the gambler's sidekick who helps him get players to throw games or to get distracted.




Gary Schneeberger:

And in doing that, he begins to go into a very bad slump. We hearken back, I think back, Warwick, in this case to what his dad said to him when he was young, "Talent's not enough. You have to work at it. You have to make it. You have to build on it. You have to continue to get better. Talent isn't enough. Natural talent isn't enough."




Gary Schneeberger:

And I think it's a key crucible leadership principle what we see here when Roy begins dating Memo, gets distracted and begins to slump and the team starts to lose again. And that's this, don't lose sight of your mission. Don't allow distractions to cause you to drift from it or it can feed more crucibles.




Gary Schneeberger:

Roy Hobbs has stopped living his life on purpose when he begins to date Memo. He's living it distracted. And it takes success and the potential for significance away from him at least for a time.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's a pretty good analysis of what happens in that section of the movie where he's caught up again with the flashy beautiful woman. It's mission drift in some sense, right? It pulls him away from his single-minded desire over those 16 years and the years before that when he was a kid to be the best there ever was.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's so true, Gary. In a sense, he has the crucible of success up until the time that he starts dating Memo. You quoted the stats of the amount of homeruns he's going to hit in the season over 50 and batting average over 500.




Warwick Fairfax:

The problem is when you have that kind of success... and I'm sure the papers were saying, "Where's this guy come from? He's incredible. He's better than anybody." You've got all these kids wanting him to sign his autograph, baseball cards.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's hard to withstand that level of adulation and success that Roy Hobbs had at that point in the season and before he started dating Memo. So then, success begins to erode your judgment. And in a sense, Memo is maybe not a foreshadowing, but the reverse of what Harriet Bird was who was the dark angel, if you will, an evil person. Anybody who's a psychopath, run arounds killing people, to me is pretty close to the definition of evil.




Warwick Fairfax:

Memo wasn't quite at that level, but clearly her motives as somebody that was on the payroll of this gambler guy, Gus. And if she didn't play ball, so to speak, the nice apartment, the money would all be gone. So, she pretty much did whatever he told her to do, "Distract Roy Hobbs. Get in a relationship with him." "Okay, boss." Off she goes. But she was in a sense a similar type, although not quite as bad, if you will, as Harriet Bird.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so, your point is, why didn't Roy see that? He would later on as we'll get to, but he didn't at this point. He got distracted, starts sleeping with her. And you have an eerie scene as they're about to go up to her room in which he bumps into Pop Fisher, the manager of the Knights who happens to be Memo's uncle. And he says, "Look, I love her, but don't get messed up with her because bad things will happen."




Warwick Fairfax:

This is before he dated her. Before he slept with her or anything, Pop Fisher knew. "Look, I may love my niece, but she's trouble. Stay away from trouble." He's not that young anymore, but he doesn't listen to very wise advice. And so, he just walks into that crucible and bad things happen and his game suffers.




Warwick Fairfax:

But you would think he would learn by now, stay clear of trouble, especially when you've been given a heads up, but he's too headstrong and too caught up with success. He hasn't learned the lessons from that crucible. He just can't see it.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. Pulling back from talking about movie heroes, that's something that can affect any of us, right, the idea that... we use the phrase, "It's not one-and-done." a lot and it's usually about forgiveness or about something like that. Learning the lesson and applying the lessons of your crucible is not one-and-done either. I mean, you can get it right 50 times. That doesn't mean you're going to get it right to 51st time.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I think there's a lesson for all of us, not in a baseball context, but in a life context that Roy Hobbs has blind spots and he chases some things that aren't good for him. The allure of an attractive cosmopolitan woman proves too much to resist. All of us have the ability to fall back into patterns even if we've "conquered" them 50 times before or five times before. True? I mean, it's never a one-and-done.




Warwick Fairfax:

I think really what this illustrates is whether you're an athlete, you're good at finance, the arts, whatever your gifting is, you cannot see all of your self-esteem wrapped up in your gifting, which in a sense what was the biggest mistake of Roy Hobbs in a sense is, certainly one of the top ones, having his whole self-image wrapped up in his gifting.




Warwick Fairfax:

Nothing wrong enjoying baseball or whatever you do, but he had his self-image wrapped up in that. As he was refining his craft of batting and before pitching, the aspect of his life that he was not crafting, he was not in the batting cage, if you will, of character. He wasn't refining his character, his humility, his self-awareness.




Warwick Fairfax:

If he was trying to focus on his humility, his character, I think he may well have seen Memo coming. And people of character listen to good advice like Pop Fisher, his manager, but he didn't. So, he was good in baseball, but his batting average in terms of his character, that wasn't over 500. That may have been right less than 100. He was not working on it.




Warwick Fairfax:

And because of his lack of ability to hone his character, his humility, his self-awareness, he went through in some case self-imposed crucibles, first one when he was a young kid. One could debate that. But Memo, she was trouble.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it's an interesting point to make. The movie's called The Natural. And it's true you can be a "natural" in some things in your life, and you can have blind spots and trip and fall, and hit crucibles in other aspects of your life.




Gary Schneeberger:

We've talked about being the GOAT. GOAT syndrome. You can be the GOAT in certain things. You can be the natural in certain things, but that doesn't mean that you don't have blind spots in other areas of your life that can truly cause you some crucibles. And the key to overcoming that is to learn the lessons of those crucibles and apply them.




Gary Schneeberger:

And here's the good news about the movie, The Natural. Roy Hobbs learns the lessons of his crucible. It's a key pivotal person and moment in doing that. You made reference earlier on, Warwick, to a white angel to compliment or counterbalance the dark angel that was Harriet, the woman who shot him. And that's when his young love, Iris, reenters his life.




Gary Schneeberger:

She does that when the Knights travel to where she lives in Chicago. And they begin to rekindle their relationship as a friendship. She says she has this son. Her son loves baseball and is a huge fan of Roy's. She attends a game when he's still going through his slump.




Gary Schneeberger:

And he has two strikes on him. And when that happens, she stands up in the crowd. She's got a big hat on and people are yelling at her to sit down because they can't see. But again, there's a setting sun behind her. She's illuminated. And Roy senses something because he hits a game winning homerun. His slump ends right there.




Gary Schneeberger:

Iris, his first love, stands up. He senses something is different. Something's going on with two strikes on him. One of his 51 homeruns that year goes sailing out of the park and the Knights start another winning streak. That scene to me is one of the most beautiful scenes in the film. Back lit, she's all lit up. Her white hat, it gives me tingles even to talk about it now. Pivotal scene though for sure.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. I mean, if Harriet Bird was the angel of darkness, Iris was the angel of light. And because it's a movie, imagery is so important. She's wearing this beautiful white dress and white hat. And her hat is just glimmering in the sun. It is almost like a halo. I mean, she is meant to be not just his long-lost love, but just an angel of light.




Warwick Fairfax:

As again, we talked about Star Wars, the force versus darkness and the empire. When you turn towards the light, whatever that means for you and your belief system and philosophy, good things happen. You turn towards darkness, bad things like crucible happens. It sounds simplistic, but most major philosophies and religions, that is really a key part of civilization for thousands and thousands of years.




Warwick Fairfax:

There are the forces of good and the forces of evil. And your life is better when you turn to the forces of good. Sounds simplistic, but life is tough and you get tempted by success, fame, a lot of other things in life. And so, here's a moment where this angel of light begins to come into his life and things get better. A lesson to be learned here.




Gary Schneeberger:

And there's a great crucible leadership principle when Roy asks her later why she stood up. Why at the game did she stand up when he had two strikes on him? And she says this to him, "I didn't want to see you fail." That is a critical crucible leadership truth.




Gary Schneeberger:

We need the support of others who believe in us to help us move beyond our setbacks and failures. And that's what reenters his life and sets him now on the path toward true significance.




Warwick Fairfax:

We talk a lot about surrounding himself with a team of fellow travelers. As many athletes do, you can surround yourself with an entourage. People will want to get some of the money, some of the gravy, some of the crumbs that fall off you. And maybe they'll get a few thousand here or there, which if you're making hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars as top athletes do, they can throw out a few thousand like it's a $1 bill.




Warwick Fairfax:

And so, there are some out there that they only want to be around us for the fame and the success. As soon as that fame goes, they're out of here. They're gone. Those aren't fellow travelers. Those aren't the team you want to be. Those aren't the teammates you want to have.




Warwick Fairfax:

Iris is different. When she says she doesn't want to see him fail, it's not because oh, somehow, she'll get more money or whatever. She believes in who he is. She loves him, believes in him. She wants the best for him, not because of anything that he can do for her. She wants to help him just out of the goodness and purity of her heart. Those are the kind of people you want to surround yourself with, the Irises of this world.




Warwick Fairfax:

Too many of us surround ourselves with, be it male or female, the Harriets and Memos. It's easy to say, "Oh, that's not me." Really? You've never had somebody in your life that maybe you made a poor choice, be it in high school or elsewhere, maybe a business partner? Many of us have made poor choices of who we surrounded ourselves with. Iris is the kind of person you do want to be on your team, you do want to have in your camp.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that relationship, having Iris back in his life, is critical to Roy's moving past his crucibles that come as the movie begins its march to its climax. He's hospitalized after Memo poisons him to keep him from leading the team to victory in the pennant.




Gary Schneeberger:

After Iris stands up, the team starts winning again. They're on the precipice of winning the pennant. If they win the pennant, Pop Fisher gets the team all by himself and the Judge is out. So, Memo, undoubtedly under the auspices of Gus, poisons him.




Gary Schneeberger:

And it ends up with Roy in the hospital for three days because the silver bullet that's still inside him that he was shot with by Harriet is eroding away his stomach lining. The doctor tells him he's got to quit playing baseball or his stomach could literally blow apart.




Gary Schneeberger:

The Judge shows up in his hotel room with $20,000 in an envelope and offers it as a bribe to ensure that the team loses, to ensure Roy doesn't go back and play. And then, another visit in the hospital.




Gary Schneeberger:

And Warwick, this is the moment, a slice of that we played at the top of the show, a clip of Iris's visit to the hospital, where they have this conversation where they talk about some really important and really meaningful things that helped Roy overcome both the crucibles of his past and the crucibles of his present.




Gary Schneeberger:

At one point we heard in the clip at the top of the show, he says, "Some mistakes, I guess we never stop paying for." He is at the end of his resilience rope, but she refuses to let him stay there. She tells him, "I believe we have two lives, the life we learn with and the one we live with after that."




Gary Schneeberger:

I've heard that line and I've watched the movie like 25 times in my life. When I heard that line as I was screening the film for this discussion, it struck me as, "That's pure crucible leadership. That's learn the lessons of your crucible and apply them. That's it didn't happen to you. It happened for you. That's from our greatest pain comes our greatest purpose."




Gary Schneeberger:

It's as if Iris Lemon co-created Crucible Leadership with you by saying that line. It's just so pivotal to everything we talk about on this show and in Crucible Leadership, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. I mean, it's one of my... maybe it is my favorite scene in the movie. We all need people like Iris in our camp. I mean, here he is. He realizes the mistake he's made. I think later on it will be even clearer about who Memo is. But I think at that point, he realizes the mistakes. And he's just in just self-flagellation mode. Some mistakes, we never stop paying for.




Warwick Fairfax:

He says to her, "I didn't see it coming." In other words, Harriet Bird. "I should have." He's like, "I should have seen it. I should have seen it." And maybe you should have, but when you're young, sometimes you don't see things when you're young and naive and headstrong in your own success.




Warwick Fairfax:

And Iris says, "But you were so young. It's like you were young." In other words, "Okay. Yes, you made a mistake, but you've got to forgive yourself. You've got to cut yourself some slack. You've got to move on."




Warwick Fairfax:

And he's just haunted by this idea that, "I could've been the best there ever was. I could've walked down my hometown and people would've said, 'There goes Roy Hobbs, the best there ever was.' I could have broken every record in the book." And that's when she talks about, "We have two lives, the life we learn with and life we live after that."




Warwick Fairfax:

And she's like, "Okay, you could have broken all these records. Well, so what?" I mean, she says it nicely. And then, she ends with really not even a drop, but a dollop of grace. Because I think he realizes at that point, "This season's probably going to be it." His stomach is not in good shape and they pull out silver bullets.




Warwick Fairfax:

She says to him, "Think of all the young boys, all the young kids you've inspired. You are so successful now, and success in the sense of significance. Look at who you've inspired." So, she's trying to lift him up. "And so, don't worry about being the best there ever was. Don't worry about all the records you won't maybe be able to achieve."




Warwick Fairfax:

So, she really is his angel of light that's really helping to produce some character formation. Roy has been batted. He needs a bit of grace and love and character formation to understand what life is about. It's not about records and stats and homeruns. It's about how you treat people. It's your character. It's living a life on purpose, dedicated serving others as we define a life of significance.




Warwick Fairfax:

She is really his muse, his advocate for what life is about and really a life of significance. It's such a pivotal scene because she's speaking really truth to him, really crucible leadership philosophy, if you will. It's not about records. It's about living your life in service to others. It's a great scene. And that's why we need people like Iris in our lives. They advocate and help us be the people that we always hoped and wished we would be at a heart of hearts.




Gary Schneeberger:

And while in the past in this movie and earlier instances, Roy doesn't quite grasp the lesson of a crucible or the advice of a loved one in the same way that he grasps baseball's the same way that he hits fastballs.




Gary Schneeberger:

But in this case, in the very next scene, he grasps because he goes to the Judge's office with that $20,000 that the Judge had given him to just lay in bed and not play the next day to ensure that the Knights would lose and not win the pennant. He shows up to the Judge's office. He's got the $20,000. He wants to give it back.




Gary Schneeberger:

Memo is there. Gus is there. All the conspiracy folks who are out to end his efforts to win the pennant and to achieve significance, they're all there. And that's a pretty moving scene too, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

It really is. And basically, Memo, I think I said earlier, if we want to have a relationship, you can't play. If you play, we're done. I mean, she is following orders from Gus and ultimately the Judge. And it's like, "I'm playing. This may be my last game, but I'm playing. I don't know if we'll win or lose, but I'm going to give it my all."




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, she can't stand that. He is defying her. He's defying the Judge and Gus. And so, she gets a gun out, fires it somewhere, fortunately not at him. He looks at her, takes the gun away from her and says in a moving sad, almost chilling note, "You're right, Memo, we have met before." And that really hearkens back.




Warwick Fairfax:

As we watched the movie, we know he is talking about Harriet Bird. Maybe Memo isn't quite at that level of psychopathic serial killer, but she's not a force for good in his life.




Warwick Fairfax:

And at that point, maybe he's learning the lesson from what Iris has told him a short time before and it crystallizes in his mind, "People like Memo, they're not good for me. They bring me down. They erode my character. They do the opposite of helping me live a life of significance. They lead me down a path leading a dark life that hurts me and hurts others."




Warwick Fairfax:

All of that was crystallized I think in that scene, in that moment, when she shot the gun. At that point, he actually clearly did listen to Iris's advice and was living it out. It's a great scene.




Gary Schneeberger:

And Roy of course does play, right? He does get out of bed. He does play. Spoiler alert, the Knights win the pennant. Pop wins sole control of the team. To be the hero, Roy must first have the inspiration Iris gives him by passing him a note while he's on the bench that her son is his son too. He's the father of her child. He also must survive.




Gary Schneeberger:

And this is where the train speeds toward the conclusion of The Natural. He has to survive a whole bunch of last-minute crucibles. First one, Wonderboy is broken. He fouls a ball away and he breaks his bat, this bat that has fueled his record setting season. Probably to him... baseball players, sports athletes are very superstitious. And, "Oh my gosh, my bat that I made from a felled tree in my yard that was hit by lightning, it's gone. What do I do?"




Gary Schneeberger:

Interesting side light, the bat is replaced by the very sweet and very shy and very quiet bat boy for the Knights named Bobby Savoy, who earlier in the movie, Roy teaches him how to make a bat. That was the first flash of the life of significance, Roy pouring into somebody.




Gary Schneeberger:

Bobby Savoy makes this bat. So, he gives his bat, the Savoy Special, to Roy. So, that's what Roy goes up to the plate with, with a strike on him. Then the Pittsburgh Pirates, who they're playing for this one game playoff to get in the world series to win the pennant, they bring out...




Gary Schneeberger:

Basically, to win the game Roy's got to beat his younger self, right? Because the guy that the Pirates bring up to pitch is a young farm boy, blonde-haired, lefthanded pitcher who throws the fastest ball in the league. It's who Roy Hobbs was going to be if he hadn't been shot by Harriet Bird. He's got to defeat himself in a sense. He's got to overcome his demons in a sense to get that victory.




Gary Schneeberger:

And then, as if that's not enough, with two strikes on him, his side starts bleeding from where the damage that the bullet caused. And it shows up on his jersey. Blood shows up on his jersey. I know there's a point you wanted to make about when the blood does show up and how the catcher reacts Warwick.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, I mean, I think maybe the direction have been quite timed at... the visual was right, but at least at first, I thought it looked like the catchers thought that there was blood on his jersey and gives the signs and pitch it inside, which maybe would be harder to hit. But didn't quite get the thinking of the scene right.




Warwick Fairfax:

But it would seem like for all the world, even if it was after the sign, the catcher's thinking, "This guy's done. I can see blood. There is no way this guy's going to be able to hit anything." But he was proven to be wrong.




Gary Schneeberger:

Indeed. And the very next pitch that comes in, listener, Roy Hobbs hits a game-winning homerun that goes up into the light stanchions in the stadium, blows them up. And it's like celebratory fireworks falling down on the field. It is one of the most rousing scenes in my motion picture history of the movies I like.




Gary Schneeberger:

Just to give you an idea of what that moment's like, we're going to play just the audio on the audio version here of the podcast of what that sounded like. And you'll recognize instantly the music of The Natural. And if you don't feel a little tingle or want to stand up and applaud when you hear this, you should because I do. Here's the ultimate moment from The Natural.




Gary Schneeberger:

I need to stop here, Warwick, just to say one thing about my own youthful Natural moment. I haven't told you this before. But I'm not older than 20 years old. I'm probably 19 or 20 years old. I'm playing city league softball in my hometown. It's a night game and the lights are on.




Gary Schneeberger:

Now, I hit a foul ball. It's not even a fair ball. It's not a homerun. I hit a foul ball that goes into the lights and they start to spark. I felt like Roy Hobbs. My teammates called me Roy for the rest of the game even though it was a foul ball.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have no idea if the rest of that bat I made an out, I got a hit. I have no idea if I knocked in a run. I have no idea of anything. But my memory going on 35, 40 years since that moment, I still remember how it felt to hit that ball to have it hit that light array, and then for sparks to fly out. And immediately, everybody, there's 11 people in the stands, and they're all like, "Ooh." I mean, I still feel a tingle about that moment because that is the deep impact.




Gary Schneeberger:

We talked about these crucible moments and how to extract crucible moments in this series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles. We're pulling out principles that will help you overcome your own crucibles. But the reason that we're doing it in movies is because let's not forget, let's not lose sight of the fact that movies move us. Movies stick with us.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that I share that experience not to say, "Hey, I hit a foul ball and I made the lights spark." I say that to say that movie so moved me, that when I did something that was nowhere near what Roy Hobbs did, I guarantee I didn't bat .557 that year, but just that foul ball and the lights coming out to be called Roy Hobbs and to have that moment still sticks with me.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. It's like you had your Roy Hobbs moment. It's like, "Okay, maybe I'm not Roy Hobbs, but for one at-bat, for one moment, maybe just a little bit, maybe I'm channeling a little bit of Roy Hobbs within me that sense of just that wonderful magical moment."




Warwick Fairfax:

It's a tremendous scene. And we'll get to maybe the last scene after that here in a bit, but it was such a redemptive moment. It wasn't just about himself. because as we said earlier, if the Knights were to win the pennant, then Pop Fisher would get to own the team and be able to buy out the Judge. If they lost, then it would be all the Judge's team.




Warwick Fairfax:

And Roy Hobbs knew that. He knew he wasn't just playing for himself. He wanted to do whatever he could to help Pop Fisher own the team and get the frankly, evil Judge if you will out of the picture. So, it's a wonderful moment. He's beat up. It probably is going to be the last at-bat he's ever going to have as far as we know.




Warwick Fairfax:

And there is this sense of redemption, some grace. And in the stands after he hits the ball, you just see Iris and it's just joyful tears of thanksgiving and pride. And she's just so happy for Roy because she knows how much it means to him. She knows it's probably going to be his last at-bat. She's just filled with joy for him.




Warwick Fairfax:

Again, we want people like Iris who, when we have our Roy Hobbs moments, which isn't all the time, again would be just cheering us and just having tears in their eyes because they're so happy for us. It's a wonderful redemptive moment that wasn't just about him. It was for his team. And especially, it was for Pop Fisher. And so, there was some lot of...




Warwick Fairfax:

At that point, I honestly believe, I don't know that we fully know, that Roy Hobbs wasn't doing it all for himself and the records, that there was a higher purpose behind that hit, if that makes sense.




Gary Schneeberger:

Absolutely. And it's funny Warwick, you said, it's probably his last at-bat. We don't know. We do know. Here's that baseball card that I had and it has the narrative of Roy Hobbs's career. And this is what it says about the moment that we just talked about.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, he was badly hurt, but he famously hit the game-winning homerun in the ninth, a homerun that crashed into the lights, sending sparkles everywhere. This is what it says after that, "Roy Hobbs never played again." So, we do know according to this card, the Knights without Hobbs were swept easily by the Yankees in the World Series.




Gary Schneeberger:

Hobbs's uniform, which he actually bled through, is on display at the Baseball Hall of Fame, as is his Wonderboy bat. Why that doesn't make me sad when I read that they lost the world series is if... there's an earlier scene in the movie where Pop's like, "I don't even care about the series. I just want to win the pennant." Because by winning the pennant, Pop gets to keep the team all to himself and the Judge is out.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, the fact that without Roy, they didn't win a game. They lost all four games to the Yankees. I mean, boo the Yankees because I'm not a Yankees fan. But that still ends it on a great note. And here's the last bit. Hobbs moved back to Sabotac Valley, that town in Iowa, and married Iris Lemon where they lived out their quiet lives.




Gary Schneeberger:

People who had seen him play insist that if he could have stayed healthy, Roy Hobbs would've been the greatest player in the history of the game. He was a natural. That last scene that you referred to, Warwick, is a scene that hearkens back to the beginning of the movie. There's catch being played in a farm field and Roy's playing catch again. But this time, Roy's the dad who's playing catch with his son.




Gary Schneeberger:

And the camera cuts to... I mean, he's smiling. His son is running through the field. He's smiling. And they cut to Iris and she's smiling. And that is the life of significance that Roy Hobbs didn't realize was on the other side of the greatest of all time, the best there ever was in this game. The true life of significance is what he and Iris and their boy lived out over, we don't know how many more years, but clearly, they lived it out and they were happy.




Warwick Fairfax:

So well said. I mean, in a sense, the movie has come full circle. It started with Roy pitching to his beloved dad, and now he's pitching to his son. And there's nothing wrong with being successful in baseball, football, the arts, business, but true success is not about numbers, whether it's RBIs, homeruns, money in the bank account, houses, whatever record it is.




Warwick Fairfax:

True success is often simpler. It's defined by your character, how you treat people. It's throwing catch to your kid. It's being there at their dance recitals, at their baseball games. It's family. It's every bit as significant is just what you pour into your family. And I think Roy realized he loved baseball and that's great, but you don't want to be owned by records or owned by something.




Warwick Fairfax:

He realized with Iris's help that much as he loved baseball, there was more to life than records, more to life even than baseball. We don't know, but I think in some sense, he probably came to some sort of peace about life. It didn't turn out the way that maybe he wanted it to or thought it could be, but he has his beloved Iris, his wife. He's there with his son that he didn't know he had.




Warwick Fairfax:

And one thinks he probably had a pretty good life and he accepted what had happened. He learned from his crucibles and realized there's more to life than numbers and records, and RBIs and homeruns. It's those around you.




Warwick Fairfax:

Life of significance is measured in ways that are not just about numbers. They're measured in character and those that we love and give back to. So, it was just a beautiful scene at the end that really hearkens back to what a life of significance really is.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that, listener, is the time of the show. I'm not going to land a plane, come on. I'm going to catch the final out right there. Game's over. As we do with every episode of this series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, we want to leave you with a point of reflection about the movie that we've talked about today and the hero we've talked about today, The Natural and Roy Hobbs.




Gary Schneeberger:

And what Warwick and I want to direct your attention is to Wonderboy, Roy's bat. That was the bat he fashioned from a felled tree destroyed by lightning. Roy Hobbs was able to make something special and beautiful and helpful to his pursuit of a life of significance from something that was lost and destroyed.




Gary Schneeberger:

So, ask yourself this, what are the potential Wonderboys in your life? Where can you create beauty from ashes? Be it something physical or something emotional. Where has the train gone off the tracks? And you can put it back and create something out of your pain with new purpose that helps you lead a life of significance and leave a legacy.




Gary Schneeberger:

What's your Wonderboy? We'll leave you with that question. And we'll leave you with this. Again, it's not homework. It's, take some time if you want to be on track with us next week when we talk about the next hero in our series, and that is Robin Hood.




Gary Schneeberger:

Now, we're going to do it in a couple of ways. So, Warwick is a big fan. And so, initially, we were going to focus only on the Russell Crowe real Robin Hood story, but then Warrick said, "Let's weave in some stuff from the Errol Flynn Robin Hood too." So, we're going to get both of those movies. So, Robin Hood is the next hero that we're going to talk about on Lights, Camera, Crucibles.




Gary Schneeberger:

And until that next time, listener. Remember, we know your crucibles are tough. Sometimes, they can be your fault. Sometimes, you can have a hand in them. Roy Hobbs certainly had a hand in some of his with some poor decisions he made. But even those crucibles are not the end of your story.




Gary Schneeberger:

There's certainly not a reason to, as Warwick has said many times, stay in bed with the covers over your head to self-flagellation all the time. You can move beyond them. You can forgive yourself. You can forgive others. Others can forgive you.




Gary Schneeberger:

You can work your way through those things in the same way that Roy Hobbs worked through them with some good people who supported him and had his best interest at heart around him. And he moved beyond those crucibles, and he ended up in a life of significance. And that's what can happen for you too.




Gary Schneeberger:

Your crucible experiences can be the launching off point for the best story of your life. As difficult as they may be in the story you're living right now, you can learn the lessons from them. You can catapult yourself to an ending that's just like Roy Hobbs had an ending because it ends at, like it did for him, a life of significance.

1. Encouragers

2. Complementors

Reflection

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