To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.

A comment from a recent guest on the show about the tension between growth and comfort as we aim to move beyond our crucibles prompted a blog on the subject that fuels this week’s discussion. Warwick and Gary examine three truths about why prioritizing comfort rather than growth when setback and failure strike will not lead you to the joy and fulfillment of a life of significance.

The only way forward is to press into what your crucible teaches you about yourself, the growth it’s granted you in your wisdom and resilience, and be ever-ready to dial them up as needed.

To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.

Gary Schneeberger:
Comfort is something that we feel, and as we've discussed here, we can feel it in different ways. We can feel it, the crucible is comfortable, because it's what I've known, and even it's hell, but it's home. Or comfort can be, "I don't really have a crucible. Everything's fine. Nothing to see here." That can be comfort too, that emotion. But growth is an action. Growth is something that happens to you. Growth is something that you step into. Growth is something that you pursue.
Growth and comfort. Two distinct concepts that we talk about this week is we take a deep dive look into our latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com, Why Growth and Comfort Can't Ride the Same Horse. That phrase is something our recent guest, Dr. Margie Warrell told us. And we not only unpack why it's true, but also how you can make sure you saddle up for the journey that will lead you to growth and to a life of significance.
So, Warwick, this is one of the episodes that we talk about a blog at beyondthecrucible.com. This blog is entitled, this one that we're going to talk about here is called, Why Growth and Comfort Can't Ride the Same Horse. Sounds intriguing, doesn't it, folks? Keep listening, because you'll find out why. One of the interesting things about this though, Warwick, is that this is the first time we've spoken on the podcast about a blog that was written by somebody other than you. This particular blog was written by me, and I'm just going to explain a little bit of the inspiration for it before we get into the details of it. But it came from an interview we did a couple of weeks ago with Dr. Margie Warrell, who is a friend of yours, and she's a friend of the show, and she said something while discussing her book, The Courage Gap, that I used for the title of this blog, which is, Comfort and Growth.
She actually phrased it, "Growth and Comfort Can't Ride the Same Horse." And it stuck in my head in a way that I just couldn't get it out. It's like, why is that true? What does that mean? And it's interesting for me, just by way of introduction, folks, I was going to say as Warwick and I were preparing for the show, I was going to say I'm a quote nerd, word very kindly suggest that I should call myself a quote connoisseur, because that sounds better than quote nerd. But I have a whole bunch of books of people with quotes, right? Here's Winston Churchill, what's this one called? The Smart Words and Wicked Wit of Winston Churchill. I've got quotations of Ronald Reagan. I've got Abraham Lincoln, the Wit and Wisdom of Abraham Lincoln. I've got something here from Brooks Brothers clothiers called Classic Wisdom for the Good Life, and I've even got, folks, The Wit and wisdom of James Bond. So-

Warwick Fairfax:
That's great.

Gary Schneeberger:
In addition to, right, here's the big one. The big one is this is sort of the small B bible of quotes, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations. So, I bring all that up, because you've probably heard on episodes of the show, especially episodes we talk about a blog, you've probably heard and seen me bring out quotes and get Warwick's reaction to them as he's making points through the blog. I probably won't do that, since this is the blog I wrote, pulled out for quotes. But I just wanted to set the stage of, Margie's quote really struck me, and I really wanted to unpack why that was and how that helps us move beyond crucibles.
And it's interesting, one of the things that we've noticed from the show is that we've gotten a lot of quotes over the years. We could put our own book, Warwick, we could put out our own Beyond the Crucible quotes from Guest's book, because people do say truly insightful and meaningful things to us on the show here. But I just want to ask you, Warwick, since you know Margie, as much as it struck me, I'm wondering, when she said to us, "Growth and comfort can't ride the same horse," what kind of impact did that have on you? Did that stick with you? What are your thoughts about that quote?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, when Margie said that, it sure did. It struck a chord. It makes so much sense. And really, the first thought that occurred to me is that when we're talking about growth and comfort can't ride the same horse, that is literally true, because one of the big stories that she shared was about a real horse. That growth and comfort can't literally ride the same real horse. So, the story that she shared was she grew up in Australia, a number of hours outside of Melbourne on a dairy farm, so there were horses on that farm. And when she was somewhat of a young kid, I don't know if it was 10, 12, somewhere around there, she wanted to ride a horse, and the one they had was a tame horse, but it was enormous, certainly compared to a young Margie. And she was terrified, but she was not going to let that horse, the fear of riding that horse overcome her.
She got on it and eventually learned to ride it. Now, ironically, that was the toughest moment, because later on she said to her dad, "I'd like to a bit of a wilder horse," a brumby horse as we call it in Australia. And that wasn't that big a deal, even though it was a wilder horse, the toughest moment, the toughest time was riding that first tame horse. And so, I think what that means more broadly is that none of us, certainly me included, maybe me especially, like doing potentially risky and scary things. I don't really like change that much, to be honest. But in order to grow, to expand your learning and capabilities, you have to have the courage to try and use scary things. You have to, in Margie's case, be willing to ride that enormous big horse, to get on that horse for the first time and make that horse move a few steps.
Typically, in horse riding you stick your feet in the backs, the heels into the horse. That's what you're meant to do. Maybe shake the reins a bit and off you go, hopefully not too fast. For me, it's ironic, while I don't like change, I don't like doing new scary things, I've done quite a few things that are very different in different parts of the world. As listeners may know by now, I went to Oxford at age 18, that's other side of the world from Australia, and didn't really know anybody there. Worked on Wall Street, again, didn't know anybody then at age 21 in New York City, then I got to Harvard Business School. Later on I launched this $2.25 billion takeover of my family's 150-year old family media company. And one of the things that I most didn't like about it is it put me in the limelight. I was on TV, at least my image was pretty regularly. I'd go to the mall and people would go, "Oh, that's Warwick Fairfax." I hate being noticed like that, so that was not fun.
And then later on I spoke in church in 2008 giving some illustration about my story, about what I went through in my family business. I've written and got a book published, launched this podcast. Each of those things were scary and new and led me to grow. So, it's ironic, I'm somebody that really doesn't like change or doing new things, but yet I've done many new things in many parts of the world.

Gary Schneeberger:
We talk a lot at Beyond the Crucible about what, Warwick, is called the pit, right? That bottom level when you bottomed out after your crucible, you can be in the pit. And we've heard it described by so many guests, including us, have talked about it's unbearable, it's searing pain. Warwick said it, I think earlier here, it's a very difficult place to be. But as I thought about that and I thought about my own story, that pit can also be comfortable. That pit can also be, yes, the way that I phrase it in the blog is, it's hell, but it's also home in some ways. And in my own experience, as having struggled with alcoholism in my early 30s, I mean through my early 30s, I was, after I became sober I was not comfortable venturing out into social situations with friends who knew me as someone who drank.
I was worried, folks, I was worried that I would not be liked as much. People would not want to share my company, that I wouldn't be funny, that I wouldn't be, all those things that I thought in my weaker moments, despite the difficulties alcohol caused me, those things that helped make me, me, I thought were tied inextricably to alcohol. And so, that was uncomfortable to walk out of that. And I discovered that comfort, I'm going to stay in this pit here a little bit, because if I go out of it, even though I'm sober, if I go out and venture out into the world, people are going to either reject me or not like me as much. That was a difficult thing to get over. It was only by going out and doing those things, going out with friends, not drinking, where I realized that nobody held being sober against me. Far from it, they were happy for me that I was no longer on a destructive path.
So, the courage I had to muster to overcome the comfort of the pit feels like home. Even though it was destructive, the courage I had to muster to get beyond that was to go enter society again as a sober person. And those two things could not have ridden the same horse. My comfort in the pit and my moving beyond my crucible could not have the growth to get there, could not have ridden the same horse. This point, Warwick, comfort can often be what keeps us tangled up in the aftermath of our crucible. What's your perspective on that truth?

Warwick Fairfax:
Gary, as you share your story, it's so interesting. Not everybody has gone through your crucible of alcoholism, but yet, there's a broader metaphor. You're thinking, "Hey, this fun-loving persona, this sort of happy-go-lucky guy, it only exists with alcohol. Unless I'm inebriated on my fourth, fifth glass or whatever, I'm just going to be this, I don't know, gray-like boring person that people will not want to be around." And that you hear the good voices, or the bad voice, it just says in your ear, "Gary, without alcohol you're nothing. Nobody will like you. Alcohol is all that produces the fun, loving, happy-go-lucky Gary that everybody likes."
And then when you found in, I'm sure those first months, years when you weren't drinking, it's like you're still the same person. Maybe better. Now, maybe some of the people that just like drinking themselves under the table, maybe it's like, "Oh gee, I don't want to be around Gary, because it makes me feel bad, because he's sober and I'm not," whatever. That's a dip. But your real friends there was like, I don't know if they said finally, but it's like they like being around you. So, there's this negative voice you've referred to, the phrase self-talk is different than self-reflection. The phrase you use, the negative self-talk says, "I'm nothing without alcohol," in your worst months. But you found, "If anything, I'm funnier, happier, people like me more." Does that make sense? It's like you felt like this was home, but in reality it was all a lie that wanted to keep you there. Does that make sense?

Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, absolutely. And it'll be, gracious by the time this episode airs, it'll be close to 28 years since I've been sober. You're absolutely right. It was something that just, I allowed it to make me feel comfortable and that comfort and growth couldn't coexist. I had to break out of what felt like comfort, which really wasn't, to go into living this post-crucible life. I had to live the post-crucible life. I had to get on the horse, throw the comfort away and go toward growth. And I did do that, and it's made all the difference in my life. And so, so many of my friends, just a couple of weeks ago before we recorded this I celebrated my 60th birthday, had a big party and neighborhood friends of mine who were my drinking buddies when I was in the grips of my alcoholism, still my friends, still love me, still came out to celebrate me. So, you're absolutely right. People have discovered in fact that they liked me probably a little bit more than they did when I was not sober.

Warwick Fairfax:
Who knew, right? It's like, "Huh, maybe I'm more than just the alcohol. Maybe that's diminishing the true Gary, not enhancing it." And that's the lie. So yeah, I mean, when I think of this whole issue of comfort and growth and I love that phrase you used, "It's hell, but it's also home." I'm reminded of a movie that we both love with Tim Robbins, The Shawshank Redemption. I think it was set in a prison in Maine, and I don't if it was the '30s, maybe it's the '50s, it was a long time ago. In one of the scenes there's an inmate that gets released and he can't handle being out on the outside. And from what I understand, this is somewhat common that prisoners get released and they find a way to commit a crime to get back inside, because that's the new normal. They're somehow comfortable in some strange sense. I guess more broadly, it is possible to feel like our own prison of our crucibles can be comfortable.
In my sense in some way I can relate to this, as listeners know, I grew up in a large 150-year-old family media business in Australia. In one sense I grew up in a crucible. It was a 24/7 crucible life. I was expected by my parents to one day lead this large company. I felt immense pressure and expectations from them, certainly myself, as well as some degree of inadequacy. I felt like I had to be almost like Superman in some sense. It's like the bar was so high, pretty much impossible to reach. And so, as I often talk about, in the Bible talks about the prodigal son who went away and wasted all this money. Well, I was the "good son" that stayed home and worked hard. I did my undergrad at Oxford, worked on Wall Street, got my MBA at Harvard Business School, and it was all part of a plan to prepare myself to one day be the leading figure, or a leading figure certainly in the family media business.
So, pre-takeover, which we'll get into later, it was very challenging. There were infighting amongst family members going back decades. Just pre-takeover my father died. So, despite all this growing up in the family media business, John Fairfax Limited in Australia, it was the only life that I knew and I never would have left voluntarily. It's like, could there be a better life outside The Crucible, which we'll get into. I'm not even sure that I would have called it that. It's like, "Well, I don't know, but I can't do that. That's my duty." And to step out aside of the circle, step outside of the John Fairfax Limited zone, who am I if I'm not the fifth generation heir to this family media company? I'm nothing. It would be a very scary thing. So, is it possible to have a better life outside of that crucible? I couldn't have even asked or answered that question. It just, this was home. It might be extremely painful, very scary, very difficult, but there is no life outside of this.
I think also the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbits in the Shire, they never left the Shire. It was the only life they've ever known. You never leave the Shire. It's this comfortable place. That doesn't seem so bad, but the point is, accomplishing things and saving middle Earth and all that, no, no, you don't leave the Shire. Well, in my case, you don't leave John Fairfax Limited. This is the only world I ever knew. And no, I never would have left voluntarily. So yeah, I get how you can be comfortable amidst the crucible. It may be painful, but it's the only life you've ever known, and how can you leave that for some scary unknowable future that in the midst of your living in hell on earth, if you will, it's like, well, anything that's different, it's going to be worse, right? A bit like Eeyore and the Winnie the Pooh, it'll be worse. The saddest this is, change will lead you to a place where it will be worse and more painful, so why change?

Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, I mean, for me, again, my alcoholism cost me a job, cost me more than one job. Cost me friends, cost me relationships. It cost me a lot of stuff, but still in that twisted way it felt like this was comfortable, because it's something, it was what I knew. And that's the thing that we're trying to get you to realize, folks, is that when, that's one of the reasons why growth and comfort can't ride the same horse. So, find growth, look for growth, have the courage to pursue growth and let comfort fall to the wayside. Because at the end of the day that's not going to, comfort's not going to pave your road to a life of significance. I think that's fair, right?

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.

Gary Schneeberger:
Second point in my blog, weird me say ... It's weird for me to say in my blog, second point in my blog is this, and stick with me on this one, folks, because it's pretty much a 180 from the first point. The second point is, comfort can breed a false sense of having overcome a crucible. By that I mean, it's sort of the other end of the spectrum. If the first point is that comfort can come from the crucible, because it's all you've known, as painful as it is, it's what you've known, it's what you feel you've become. It's what people relate to you at, this one is, the pit doesn't feel safe so much, it doesn't feel like a pit.
At some point you're allowed, you get yourself to believe it's not a pit, it's not that bad. This idea that comfort can breed a false sense of having overcome a crucible or having not even had a crucible. That's what can happen in what is at point two here. We forsake the notion that we've experienced something that has changed the trajectory of our life, and we continue on just sort of, I've heard you say, Warwick, on this show, a dozen, more than three dozen times, "Nothing to see here." You get into that kind of nothing to see here attitude, right?

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.

Gary Schneeberger:
So, two times for me, just to continue my story, two times for me before I entered rehab and got sober, I danced around the edges of it. One time I actually started to see a psychiatrist. I went to a couple meetings, I mean, a couple appointments. He talked to me, I felt, "Hey, I'm feeling pretty good." Never went back, started drinking again.
Then one night things were so bad that a good friend of mine who had encouraged me before to get sober had driven me to the rehab hospital. I eventually went to six, eight months later, drove me to the front door, called in. There was someone there who was ready to meet me, and I never got up the courage to knock on the door, because I was convincing myself, "You know what? Now that I'm standing here, it's not so bad. I have some issues, and I might have lost some respect from some people, but I'm not as bad as the other guy, or I'm not as bad as what they tell in the movies, or something." I talked myself out of it. I tricked myself into believing I was not in a crucible. And that's what this second point is really all about. So, I know, Warwick, this may not fit your story exactly, but what's your perspective on this idea of the second point that we can indeed convince ourselves that our crucible isn't anything like that at all?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's such a great point, Gary. I think listening to your story, and you've shared this elsewhere, I think you felt like, "I can handle this. I mean, I'm not dangerous when I'm drunk. I don't hurt people. I'm just a fun-loving guy. I don't do anything terrible. I don't yell and scream at people and put them down. I'm not that kind of alcoholic, that kind of drunk person, and heck, I can get my job done."

Gary Schneeberger:
I was high functioning. I was high functioning. I could be out all night. I could get up the next morning and I could drive work. So, you're right, that made it harder to get help, because I didn't feel I needed it because I was still humming on all cylinders in some areas of my life.

Warwick Fairfax:
And I think a number of us can feel that way. It's like, "It's not that big a deal. It's not really derailing my life." And maybe it is in some ways, but you kind of overestimate how effective and functioning you are and underestimate how much you may be hurting people. And so, you feel like, "Nothing to see here. It's all good." And yeah, you're right. Mine is not quite the same. But in my case, growing up in this large family media business, if you said, "Do you think you're in the midst of a crucible?" And I'd say, "Well, no. It's just life. It's my life, but it's just life." It's like, boy, do you realize in certain parts of the country, like where you are, Gary, in Wisconsin, it gets cold? Maybe you'll get below zero at night. There'll be highs are teens.

Gary Schneeberger:
Maybe? Come on.

Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. And you're thinking of like, "Am I living in a crucible living in Wisconsin?" No, it's just life. It's hot in summer and cold in winter, and that's just life. Many people, they may not like their job. Maybe they're living paycheck to paycheck and maybe the kids are going through some challenging times. Maybe life is tough at school. Maybe some of the teachers aren't great. Maybe your boss isn't great. That's not a crucible, it's just life. As one of our former prime ministers in Australia in a moment of madness, as Malcolm Fraser in the 1975 election, he said, "Life wasn't meant to be easy." As a politician that's not a good winning slogan.

Gary Schneeberger:
No, that's not going to look good on the campaign button or a bumper sticker, I don't think.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I'm sure his public relations guy said, "What are you thinking, don't say that. That doesn't play well in the media. Life wasn't meant to be easy." But yeah, in my case, I just felt like there were so many challenges with family members and infighting and expectations, and was this a crucible? No, I just felt like it was just life. And more generally, we can think of other situations such as the workaholic father or mother that might say, "Look, I've just got to work hard for the season for these next few weeks, the next few months, and then I can spend more time with my spouse and my kids." And tomorrow never happens. I think of that great song, that haunting song Cats in the Cradle by Cat Stevens. And there's several lines in there where the father tells his son, "Look, sorry son, I've got a lot on my plate. I can't be with you. Can't play with you, but soon we'll be together." And the line is, "We'll have a good time then."
And it's just haunting, because I remember thinking, "I never want to be that kind of dad." And fortunately, I was able to be present with my kids and I didn't have that particular story or issue. But it's easy to fool yourself into thinking, whether it's alcoholism or being a workaholic or whatever your challenge is, "It's just a season. It'll go away, or I can handle it. And after all, isn't it about quality time, not quantity time?" The quality times I have with my kids and spouse and friends, that's really what matters. So, when you're in this kind of crucible, you can fool yourself into thinking, "It is temporary, it won't last, or even that it doesn't exist. It's just life."
And so, by dismissing it, inevitably you don't deal with it, because it's not a problem, or if you think it's a problem, it's a manageable problem or it's a temporary problem. Here's all these lies and negative self-talk that convinces you you don't have to do anything. It's either not a problem, a temporary problem, or you can deal with it and it's not that big a deal. Those lies are very destructive to your own life and typically to your friends and family.

Gary Schneeberger:
And I just thought of this, as you were talking, and I can't believe I didn't think of it beforehand. Because as I said, my birthday, a couple of weeks ago I turned 60 and every year on my birthday since I turned 50, I've posted on social media, X number of years, my age, X number of things I've learned in X number of years on earth. From the beginning of this, actually, from my 50th birthday, so for the last 10 years I changed them around from year to year, add some new ones.
But one of the things that I write that I believe to be true is that comfort can be a form of cancer in the sense that it can erode away your life. If that's what you prize, if that's what you value, if that's what you grasp, if that's what you grab for, only living in comfort. I mean, we talk about that all the time at Beyond the Crucible, right? A life of success, a life of comfort is not the end goal necessarily. You've got to have a life of significance. I think comfort can be something that keeps you, to the point of what this blog talks about, keeps you from getting beyond on your crucible. And if you don't get beyond your crucible, you don't get to your life of significance, right?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's such a good point. Comfort can be its own crucible. I think of people who retire. You get to the point in life, you work at your company for 30, 40 years, and you think, "Great, I can retire." Maybe you've got a decent package from the company financially, and play golf or live at the beach. And typically, people who retire who do that, they die young. That's what the studies show. What that means is, you want to live a long life, which we all do, you need purpose, you need meaning. You need what we call a life for significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Maybe you retire from your regular job, but maybe you volunteer with church or nonprofit or find something that you feel like is rewarding using your skills and things you're passionate about.
So yeah, I mean, as you were saying a minute ago, "Some people who think life is all about success. If I'm CEO or start a big company or whatever it is, and I have this nice house, great cars, the boats, the travel," it becomes empty. You achieve everything you ever wanted to. And it's like, "Well, what now?" You tend to fool yourself into thinking, "Oh, if I get a bigger house, a bigger car, if I grow my company 30%, then I'll be happy." But it never happens.
And so, you are comfortable financially, but yet very often, typically sometimes you are miserable. Money and success in of themselves, and as listeners know, I grew up with about as much money, success, and status, because the Fairfax family were very respected in Australia and certainly Sydney. It's like being a Kennedy or a Bush, Rockefeller, what have you. But yeah, extreme comfort, which I suppose we had in some sense, at least financially, it doesn't make you happy. Certainly true in my family. So yeah, comfort can be its own crucible. And if comfort is your highest goal, certainly in terms of success or financially, it won't lead to joy and fulfillment. You might think, "Oh, once I get to that next rung on the ladder, then I'll be happy and fulfilled." You won't be. And that's the sad thing. So, comfort could be its own prison and crucible.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right, and the reason that you don't get to that joy and fulfillment is the purpose, or is the point of this blog that we're talking about and the point of what Margie Warrell said, and that is, "Growth and comfort can't ride the same horse." The reason that you end up stuck there in a place of where you're leaning into whatever that comfort may be as opposed to that growth is that you haven't saddled up, right? You haven't saddled up a horse that's carrying growth that can help you get to that life of significance, that joy and fulfillment.

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And at Beyond the Crucible, now that I think about it, we define growth in a particular way. Here at Beyond the Crucible we believe the ultimate goal in life is a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, that will lead to joy and fulfillment. We believe certainly the Christian faith, and I would say almost all major religions, psychologists will tell you that focusing on others and life on purpose certainly will lead you to more joy and fulfillment than just focusing on yourself and money and fame. So, it's really a universal truth. When we talk about growth here is better than comfort, we're talking about growing as a human being, growing in the sense of trying to bring a vision to reality that others said it, that somehow has a sense of purpose and meaning.
We're not defining growth as in you grow your company or you grow how much money you have in the bank, but you are physically growing the size of your house or how many cars you have. We're not talking about self-centered growth. We're talking about growth in the sense that leads you to being a better person that somehow has a greater impact on the world, whatever that means to you, that helps others and has some sense of purpose. So, at least at Beyond the Crucible, that's how we define growth, if that makes sense?

Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, for sure. And that also, this is so funny, when we do episodes where you've written the blog, you always take the last point or one of the points before I get to them, and you lay it out perfectly. And you did it again on the blog that I wrote, which is fabulous. The more things change, the more they stay the same. It's beautiful. The third point in my blog, the final point in my blog is that growth is the only elixir that can propel you beyond your crucible. And Warwick just explained that, that getting beyond your crucible from our perspective means getting on that journey to a life of significance. And you can only do that. Growth is what is the fuel, is the rocket fuel, the jet fuel, the elixir that gets you to that place.
I mean, on every episode, more or less, I will end a show with something along these lines to folks, like you who are listening and watching. I'll say, "We understand that your crucible experience is hard. We understand the pain, we understand it can knock you off your feet. We understand it can change the trajectory of your life, but we also know it's not the end of your story. We also know that if you learn the lessons from your crucible and you apply those lessons, it can lead you to on a journey that will end at the greatest destination you can ever end at." And the last words I say on every episode of the show, maybe not the first couple, because I hadn't thought of it yet, but the last words are, what is that end destination? A life of significance, like Warwick just said. That is where growth, saddling up the horse for growth, putting comfort aside, going toward growth will lead you to a life of significance. And by definition that means you've moved beyond your crucible.
One key point I want to say before I turn it over to you, Warwick, is that even when that happens to you, folks, even when you've done that, great example, right? I've been talking about my crucible of alcoholism. And I've been sober now, as I said, it'll be 28 years in April, and that crucible's done. But guess what? I've had other life-rattling crucibles that have happened since then. So, those things that I learned about how to manage a crucible, those things that we talk about at Beyond the Crucible can help you get through the crucible you're going through right now, can help you get through crucibles that come in the future.
Because here's the truth about crucibles. They tend to come back like hiccups, right? They tend to come back. Different circumstances, but as Warwick says, it's rarely, rarely one and done. Warwick has not launched a takeover that ultimately failed for a second time at a cost of $2.25 billion dollars. But he'll be the first to tell you, he has gone through crucibles. Crucibles come back in different forms, and the lessons that we learn, the growth that we accumulate as we're riding that horse toward it are things that we can then apply to further crucibles. So Warwick, this third point, what's your perspective on the idea that growth is the only elixir that can propel you beyond your crucible?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I just thought of a heretical point, which is-

Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, good.

Warwick Fairfax:
... crucibles can be a blessing. We don't seek them, but you only grow with challenge. You only grow with obstacles and crucibles, and none of us really seek crucibles, at least I think we shouldn't. But yeah, inevitably, you're right. It's typically not one and done. Life is not easy. Inevitably, there'll be crucibles that come. It could be at work, at home, health challenge. There could be all sorts of crucibles that will happen. Some may be your fault, some may not be your fault. We tend not to be the kind of people it's like, "Well, I made one big mistake in my life and I've never made a big mistake since. I've never made a bad decision since." No, we're human, so we tend to make mistakes, some big, some small. We can have big and small crucibles.
But ultimately, the reason they may not feel like it crucibles can be a blessing is because pain causes you to step back and go, "Ow, that was painful. What the heck happened? Why am I here?" And we can learn and grow and become better. The new opportunities to use our crucibles to help others, which many, if not all of our guests on the podcast have done that, used their worst day to help others. When you think about getting beyond your crucible and how to move forward, there's two aspects. One is, you've got to understand what happened and why. It's often very painful, but why did I make that mistake? Why did that happen to me? What can I learn?
And the second is, you've got to find a way forward. In the first part you've got to do a lot of what we call inner soul work, a lot of deep inner reflection, and it can be very painful, but you've got to do that deep reflection. But having done that, okay, you understand your crucible, you understand what happened, you understand why. Well, now what? You've got to find a way to move beyond it. And moving beyond your crucible can often be terrifying and scary, you don't know what to do. But the key is figuring out one small step. And that small step may not lead in a linear fashion to your life of significance to some life-affirming vision, but it's a small step forward. It's almost like a small step forward, anywhere it can be helpful.
And as we've heard from Maggie Warrell in just the example of that horse, when she was a kid growing up in Australia, it was pretty scary, even though it was a tame horse. The key is, what's one small step you can move forward, you can move beyond your crucible? And as we've said, that first step is often the scariest step. It typically does get less scary. You move the flywheel, to get the flywheel moving can feel like you're pushing this massive boulder uphill. But once you start getting it moving, it's a lot easier.
For me, in my case, I had to reflect on what happened when this 150-year-old family media company went under, went bankrupt in late 1990s, and I realized that I was living my great-great-grandfather John Fairfax's vision and not my vision. I was living the life of a corporate takeover CEO. That was just not who I was. It wasn't in line with my skills and gifting, I'm more of a reflective advisor. I was trying to deal with conflicts in the family that went back decades. That alone was incredibly challenging to overcome. And all of those collectively were very challenging.
So, I realized what happened. Part of it was my fault, part of it wasn't my fault. I'm living somebody else's vision. It's not in line with my skills and abilities. And so, okay, so I learned the lessons of it. I understand it, did this self-reflection, extremely painful, but I learned the lessons. Well, now what? Well, I had to make a decision to move forward. And it's like, "Well, how do I get a job? I mean, who's going to give a job to a former medium mogul, an out-of-work media mogul?" It's like there really aren't job openings for that. So, it was tough. But eventually I got a part-time job in Maryland at a local aviation services company as a financial analyst that was then turned out to a permanent job, so that was a big step forward.
Later I gave a 10-minute talk in my church in 2000, made a certain illustration about my story. I'm not, certainly back then was not comfortable speaking in front of, I don't know, six, 700 or however many were in the auditorium that day in church. But that led to me decide to start writing a book. That was all very scary and painful, writing two or three hours a day about some of my worst, most painful experiences, it was just unbelievably painful. But I did, because I felt like this could help people. Each of these steps, starting off as a part-time financial analyst thinking, "Gosh, I'm probably the lowest paid Harvard Business School graduate in history." I don't care about money, but it was pretty ... Somewhat humiliating, I have to say. But I needed to do something. I can't just keep sending out resumes and hearing nothing back, I've got to do something.
Giving that talk in church, that was very scary, starting to write my book, that was scary and painful both. I think what this means is that when you've gone through a crucible, you've got to reflect on what happened and why I learned the lessons. But then you've got to take a step forward. You can't just feel like, "Oh, Shawshank Redemption, I feel comfortable where I am. Any step forward has got to be more painful than where I am." That's a lie. You've got to have faith and belief that, "There is a better tomorrow. I'm going to take that next step forward. No matter what happens, going to try and move beyond my worst day."
Growth is always painful. Change is always painful, but you've got to be willing to go through the pain and you will look back once you make a few steps and say, "Gosh, I've moved a few steps beyond my crucible. I've grown, I've learned." That gives you more courage, like a flywheel of courage, if you will, to take the next step. But you've got to reflect on what happened and have the courage to take that first step forward, that first step of growth beyond a crucible.

Gary Schneeberger:
And as we wrap up, as we get close to wrapping up here, one thing that jumps out at me about the conversation is that comfort is an emotion. Comfort is something that we feel, and as we've discussed here, we can feel it in different ways. We can feel it, the crucible is comfortable, because it's what I've known. And even right, it's hell, but it's home, right? Or comfort can be, "I don't really have a crucible. Everything's fine. Nothing to see here." That can be comfort too, that emotion, right?
But growth is an action. Growth is something that happens to you. Growth is something that you step into. Growth is something that you pursue. Comfort really is something you just lean back. We're all, comfortable chairs at home. We just lean back and let it absorb us. The idea of the reason that they can't ride the same horse, I think, is that there's only room in the saddlebag for one emotion. And that emotion is a desire to move beyond your crucible. That emotion is courage. That emotion is wanting to find a better day, and that's the only way you can direct that horse to go.
I think another way of looking at this is, growth and comfort can't ride the same horse, but the saddlebags on the horse can't contain a whole lot of emotions. The best one to take with you is a growth mindset. That's kind of an emotion, "I want to grow." And then go pursue it. That's the way to get it done. That's my takeaway from our discussion, Warwick, what's your takeaway from what we've discussed here on the show?

Warwick Fairfax:
Well, just as you're talking, Gary, I'm reminded growing up in Australia, I don't know if they do it here, but there would be a number of government, public service commercials, inspiring, start to promote or to elevate the populace, if you will. And there was one with this couch potato, I think they're called Norm or something. So, any Norms out there, I apologize. And it was this cartoon, animated cartoon character, and Norm was just sitting on the couch watching TV and doing nothing. And the slogan of this public service commercial was, "Life, be in it." And so-

Gary Schneeberger:
Amen.

Warwick Fairfax:
... just sitting on the couch proverbially, you might feel comfortable, but inevitably that will lead to a crucible life. You'll feel depressed and frustrated. You don't want to feel like you're lost hours on earth, or you're thinking about what legacy you will lead or what your family and friends will think, or somebody's giving a sermon about your life. And it's like, yep, "Norm was a fine person, but he led a comfortable life. Never really did anything, never took any chances. In fact, he really had kind of a miserable life, but he wasn't willing to get out of his crucible. And really, as we look back on Norm, it was a very sad life and we feel sorry for him." I mean, nobody wants that to be a eulogy, right?

Gary Schneeberger:
Right. For sure.

Warwick Fairfax:
We feel sorry for him. It was a comfortable life in one sense. But no, I mean, you've got to take steps to get off the couch, get out the door, and be in life, whatever that means. And to be in life will mean it will require growth. And with growth that requires pain. When you think of people who want to lose weight or exercise more, those first few days, jogging, cycling, eating less, whatever it is, it's not fun. But as you do it more, it's like the second day of jogging, or the third day, the third week, fourth week, whether it's jogging or cycling, it's like, "Okay, this is so bad. I can do this. I feel like I'm getting a bit more energy, a bit fitter. Here we go."
But if that first day is often the toughest, so really as we sum up here, growth and change are not easy, they can be painful. They can be intimidating, scary even. We think of the prisoner in the Shawshank Redemption was just too scared to be out in the outside world, wanted to go back. We've got to have the courage to take that first small step, like Margie Warrell having the courage to ride that tame horse, to get on that horse. That first day it may be tame, but it was enormous and she was scared. I mean, I think she was literally scared to her stomach, I think as I remember Margie talking about.
But it's that first small step that requires so much courage. I remember, for me, in a different situation that I've spoken about so far, I was in this aviation services company in Maryland, in Annapolis where we live. I at that point was doing financial and marketing business analysis. Yeah, the pay wasn't great, but we were okay. I was getting great performance reviews. I was comfortable. I knew how to do the job. I knew how to do it well. I was certainly comfortable, but yet, there was that still, small voice from my faith perspective. I think it was the Lord just saying, "Warwick, you may be comfortable, but you're not using all your skills and abilities that you could, certainly for some higher purpose." And so, I quit, and my boss was like, "You really want to do this?" Couldn't quite understand why I would quit, because I was doing a good job.
And I'd received some coaching from a mid-career executive coach, and she said, "Warwick, you have a great profile to be an executive coach." So, I went to my first coaching conference in Denver in 2003, and subsequently I became an international coach, federation certified coach. That was one of the most significant steps I've taken career wise, because I felt like this is something I can do. Ended up, I think being a good executive coach, I'm curious, and that led to being on two nonprofit boards, including my church elder board at the time. It led to that talk in church. Then that led to writing my book, Crucible Leadership. It eventually ended up with Beyond The Crucible. The fact that I like to think I'm a good coach and love asking questions, that led to what I do at Beyond The Crucible with this podcast.
I feel like I can ask questions, I'm curious. I can do this. That was a big step for me at the time, quitting that comfortable job to go and become an executive coach. That wasn't the end of the journey at all, but it led to other things. So, I was comfortable, but I made that decision, as scary as it was at the time, "I'm not going to live in the world of comfort," which it was comfortable. "I'm going to grow because I think there's something more for me where I can have more of an impact and do things that are more in line with my gifting and have a purpose that makes some small impact in the world." And so I made that choice.
I think for all of us, you don't want to live in the land of comfort, even if it's a crucible level comfort. Maybe this is the only world I've ever known, but you've got to move beyond comfort, move beyond your crucible, and take that first step towards a life of significance. Take that first step towards a life of purpose, focus on others. It will lead you to a far more rewarding life than a crucible life or a life of comfort. That's not a fulfilling life, that won't give you joy and fulfillment, crucible life, a life of comfort. We all want joy and fulfillment. You want joy and fulfillment. Go through the pain of growth. Don't just stay in the land of comfort.

Gary Schneeberger:
That is a great ending to our discussion of the blog at beyondthecrucible.com, "Why Growth and Comfort Can't Ride the Same Horse," a quote from Margie Warrell. I mentioned at the outset of the show, before I get into our points of reflection, that I am a connoisseur of quotes. So, let's look at what James Bond, The Wit And Wisdom Of James Bond. Let's just pull one at random and see what James Bond has to say about this, if it's any helpful. Let's see. Bond says in The World Is Not Enough, "If you can't trust a Swiss banker, what's the world come to?" I don't think that has any bearing whatsoever on our discussion, but it is a fun point to end on.
Let's truly end, folks, on these points of reflection from the blog. The first point of reflection is this. What does growth and comfort can't ride the same horse mean to you? And this is important. Jot it down in your own words, and then ruminate on it a little bit, right? Then reflect on it a little bit. What does it really mean to you? You've heard what it means to me and Warwick. What does it mean to you that growth and comfort can't ride the same horse?
Second point of reflection is this. Have you ever had a tough time getting out of your post-crucible pit? Because as painful as it was, it offered some comfort too. What did you do to overcome that? And if you haven't overcome that yet, what can you do to overcome that? And that could be very well where leaning into a team of fellow travelers can be a really good help.
And the third point of reflection that we have here is, has feeling comfortable prevented you from moving beyond your crucible? How did you overcome that? And again, if you're still in the midst of that, if you come to realize, "Comfort's keeping me, it's holding me back." What can you do to overcome that? And again, team of fellow travelers, good place, and us as fellow travelers is a good place too. Send us a note at info@beyondthecrucible.com, or tap in. Please tap into the podcast, other episodes of the podcast for inspiration.
And speaking of other episodes of the podcast, we would ask you if you enjoyed this episode of the podcast to either rate it on the podcast app on which you're listening, or go if you're watching on our YouTube channel, to leave a comment there for us so we can know what it is you like about it and what it is you'd like to see us do in the future.
Until the next time we're together, I'm going to say what I said I say all the time, and that's this. We know your crucible experiences are difficult, but we also know this, they're not the end of your story. Warwick has talked about how it wasn't the end of his story. I've talked about how it wasn't the end of my story just within this episode. In fact, if you learn the lessons from that crucible, if you indeed take the first step, that very difficult first step to climb on a horse, that will take you to growth, where that horse can take you, where that destination can be at the end is the most rewarding destination you can ever find, and that is a life of significance.
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