We’ve heard some remarkable stories on this podcast, but Alice Tsang’s is one of the most remarkable… and triumphant. That’s because from the crucible of abject poverty that saw her sharing a tiny apartment with more than a dozen others, needing the quarter a day her uncle could spare that allowed her to eat lunch at high school, she gained an unlikely education that she’s put two use in a pair of successful careers – first as a successful fixed-income analyst on Wall Street and now as a college finance professor.

Warwick talks with Tsang this week about what her hardscrabble upbringing in Hong Kong taught her about what’s truly important in life… lessons she now aims to teach her students so they understand how to cope with and overcome the challenges they will inevitably face.

“We do not have the ability to be perfect,” she says. “But we can control how much effort we put into a better future for ourselves.”

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.


Alice Tsang:

My uncle was generous enough to promise me that he would give me the equivalent of a US quarter every day so that I can use it to pay for public transportation and lunch money during my high school years.


Alice Tsang:

I remember growing up in the tiny little apartment with 15 people squeezed in and at the time I had to go to bed very early after dinner, 8:30 or so because it was too noisy. So I would just get up at midnight when everybody's asleep and I would do my homework and probably spend a couple hours finishing my homework. By the time I was done, it would be 3:30ish and then I would catch a few hours of sleep and then get up at 6 something and then took the public transportation. It was a long distance to travel to go to high school.


Gary Schneeberger:

We've heard some remarkable stories on this podcast, but Alice Tsang's might be the most remarkable and triumphant because from the crucible of that abject poverty she just described, she gained an unlikely education that she's put to use in a pair of successful careers. First as a successful fixed-income analyst on Wall Street and now as a college finance professor.




Gary Schneeberger:

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger. Co-host of the show. Warwick talks with saying this week about what her hard scrabble upbringing in Hong Kong taught her about what's truly important in life. Lessons she now aims to teach her students so they understand how to cope with, and overcome the challenges they will inevitably face. "We do not have the ability to be perfect," she says, "but we can control how much effort we put into a better future for ourselves."




Warwick Fairfax:

Well Alice, thank you so much for being here. It really is an honor to have you. We first met a few months ago at a Taylor event, so Taylor University in Indiana. As listeners probably know by now, I had three kids, all of whom went there. So I was inspired when I heard Alice's story at that Taylor event. I thought, we've got to have her on the podcast because she has a message, and a message and a life that really can teach us a lot.




Warwick Fairfax:

So Alice, again, thank you for coming and being here. I want to start with your backstory, it's different than a lot of folks we've had. I mean, you grew up in Hong Kong as, I don't know if the word is abject poverty. It was pretty poor. But talk about that upbringing. 'Cause I understand your parents were somewhat affluent but then they had some challenges. Just talk about what life was growing up in Hong Kong and your parents, and just your growing up.




Alice Tsang:

Okay, Warwick and Gary, thank you for having me. It is a privilege to be able to talk to you both.




Alice Tsang:

Yeah, I grew up in a family that had experienced a lot of changes, probably turn of fortune, you could say, my grandparents were actually quite affluent, but by the time my dad and my uncle, they were twin brothers, inherited their assets, most of that was squandered away. And my mom ended up having to raise three young children after the death of my father when I was five. So in those days, not having the support of a man and just a woman with very little education, she had to resort to doing menial jobs and it was constantly being interrupted by loss of employment because it's not steady work that she was able to find. So it ended up challenging for my mom to put food on the table and I grew up helping her and in her way somehow and she was able to find resources to at least not have a starve.




Alice Tsang:

And I learned how to manage things by working very hard and having a purpose. So the purpose that drove me for a long time was to be able to get a good education so that I could get a decent job to support her and I grew up. So that was the driving force for a lot of the things that I was doing. It motivated me to work very hard in my studies in spite of the fact that I was not supposed to even go to college or probably not even finish a high school, let alone going to college. If not for the fact that my uncle was generous enough to promise me that he would give me the equivalent of a US quarter every day so that I can use it to pay for public transportation and lunch money during my high school years.




Alice Tsang:

I remember growing up in the tiny little apartment with 15 people squeezed in and at the time I had to go to bed very early after dinner, 8:30 or so because it was too noisy. So I would just get up at midnight when everybody's asleep and I would do my homework probably spend a couple hours finishing my homework. By the time I was done it would be 3:30ish and then I would catch a few hours of sleep and then get up at 6 something and then took the public transportation. It was a long distance to travel to go to high school.




Alice Tsang:

I did that for seven years just because I had to go to prep school in order to go to university. So that was how I grew up and there was no childhood, but I did learn a lot of things because I had to help my aunt and my grandmother to cook for the family. We have extended family living in the same apartment. And so as a result I learned some cooking skills, learned how to take care of others. And so to me, serving others is just, it is nothing, right? So I'm used to it and I get joy out of it. If I was able to cook a good meal, everybody kind of liked it, it actually gave me joy. And so that was how I grew up and I never had imagined where I am today. But I did have opportunities one way or the other, whether it was not because I chose it or it was required of me, somehow it turned out to be beneficial in the future.




Warwick Fairfax:

So as you look at your childhood, I mean you grew up extremely poor. It's growing up in poverty is one thing, it's tough when you have family or grandparents that were wealthy and then became poor. It's like sometimes you don't know any different, but when you do know different, it makes it worse. Your dad dying when you were five and I think you mentioned to us, wasn't the greatest role model in the world, and it's not like you had this great role model of ethics, and faith, and hard work maybe, but you didn't grow up with this role model of this is how I should be. Maybe you grew up in some sense with this is how you shouldn't be. So talk about some of that because that just feels just a bit different.




Alice Tsang:

Yeah, absolutely. No, I think the interesting thing is that, well, I mean in Chinese culture, especially during my years, women were definitely second class citizens and the dependency of women to men for a living, I mean that kind of put them in their places. And so that was that, and me being a girl was not expected to be able to contribute much.




Alice Tsang:

So looking back, the fact that I was able to get so much education, I mean that was not expected and that was not too easy. Particularly now when I see my friends, and colleagues and so on and students, sometimes I almost felt envious that they had an intact family with good parents. And I also realized growing up without a father figure that is a good role model is it hurts a lot. Culturally I already felt that I was kind of somewhat inferior. Without a father figure to kind of guide me, give me advice, protect me. It's particularly challenging. I thank God that I didn't deviate and end up doing things that could have destroyed my future.




Alice Tsang:

So this somehow is a motivator for me to end up teaching now in college, because not only will I be able to encourage my female students, "No, you could be professionals and don't be afraid of this or that. We can talk about it later." And for the male students, I also encourage them to definitely see their responsibility of being a good sort responsible citizen as well as a father, a great husband in preparation. And if they can do that, the world will be much better.




Warwick Fairfax:

You're looking for a world in which kids grow up in families that are different than yours, with a loving father who can guide, support wonderful mother, a good marriage, a sense of partnership. Totally makes sense. I mean, your story is remarkable because as you said culturally, for girls growing up in maybe Asian culture, certainly where you were in Hong Kong, the expectations were low. That's probably, maybe they were lower than low, but it wasn't high.




Alice Tsang:

It wasn't high, I mean unless you grow up in a more traditional family, your parents are caring just because having parents doesn't mean that the kids are being well taken care of, right? So there are different things that we see both in Western and Eastern culture, Chinese culture. But I did grow up in a somewhat broken family, you know you could say that because that's only a single parent. And my mom was like, she needed to work all the time. And one thing that I was also worried was, while she's constantly concerned about potential unemployment, she also had epilepsy-




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh my gosh.




Alice Tsang:

...When I was growing up, I, because we were squeezed in a tiny little apartment, my youngest brother, myself and my mom, we occupied the same bed and I was like eight, nine years old and sometimes she would have seizures and I would be terrified because we didn't know what to do with her and it was pretty serious. And so we had to get others to revive her. And I constantly worry about when she would be experiencing seizures, at night particularly. So that kind of adds another dimension to the traumatic experience I would say at some point.




Warwick Fairfax:

Amidst all that, what's remarkable, just to unpack the next part of your story, is the level of education. I mean, you now will get to where you worked on Wall Street and now teach at a university level. For some, that's not remarkable, but for you, it's unbelievably remarkable. I mean, you mentioned to us that you know you squeezed by graduating from primary school, and it wasn't like it was so easy. And then you mentioned you went to public school. This was in Hong Kong back when it was I think still a British protector. So they had O levels and A levels and was in British education. And yes, you mentioned your uncle giving you lunch money, but it's funny, high school wasn't easy. I think you mentioned you flunked high school math and I believe graduated. I think you majored in, I don't know, what was it, pottery and something else. If you looked at Alice Tsang in high school and says, "She's going to be a finance wiz, and a finance professor." The teachers would be like, "Really? I don't know."




Warwick Fairfax:

So talk about high school and it wasn't like you were on this fast track from first grade. Even graduating high school was probably unexpected from where you grew up. So just talk about flunking high school math, and I think you majored in pottery and shorthand and I think your goal was to be a personal secretary. So that for some people that might not seem a high goal. For where you grew up, that might have been a fairly high goal. So people need to understand the context of how you grew up. So talk about just those high school years.




Alice Tsang:

Yeah, sure. So the kind of some hurdles to overcome. So financially I now got some support from my uncle. So I was able to attend high school. Teaching was switched to, I mean that was pretty common then from Chinese to English. And of course in my immediate family, I was the first to go to secondary school. My cousin, I think she was a year younger than me, we live in the same apartment. I would have done the same thing as she had. I was destined to be a factory worker after graduating from primary school, but somehow I was able to pass the secondary school entrance exam, that's a public test, public exam, screening students so that those who did fairly well could go to a public school. The British system in the old days, public schools actually were government funded. They tend to be better quality schools.




Alice Tsang:

So somehow I was able to get into one of them. My school was a vocational school, so people looking at me going to... They would be dismissive of that because that's not a traditional school. People graduating from those, we just learned some work skills and then they wouldn't be expected to go to college. But for me it's fine. That's exactly what I wanted to do because I wanted to find a job after graduation to support my mother. Lo and behold, it was not as easy. The first two years, first two grades were not easy for me because while I did well in other subjects, I was not too good in math. And in fact, like I said to you, it would've pulled me down. I wouldn't have finished high school. Well if not for the fact that in that particular school they have three different streams.




Alice Tsang:

So the girl is a girl school. So the girls that were doing well will be going to the math/accounting stream, and other two streams. One would be domestic science and embroidery, and the third one is pottery and stenography. I don't know why pottery, but in any case, they did have an expert in making pottery and somehow she was an important teacher in the school. So I ended up doing that. But as I related to people later on, now that I'm more familiar with the Bible, see God is the potter and the clay. So I know the process and in a way the shaping, the molding, and the cutting, it resonates with me.




Alice Tsang:

When I was streamed into that class I started to thrive and we had to take a lot of dictation, and do typing, and whatnot. So that actually helped my English ability because listening to correspondence, business correspondence that I have to take shorthand and transcribe, that definitely helped me in written English and in some way kind of know grammar better.




Alice Tsang:

That ended up being very helpful when later on in life I became a financial analyst. You need to write a lot and very quickly. So like I said, things that we might not think anything of, maybe even find it tedious or useless, irrelevant, no time is wasted if you put your heart to learning it well, because somehow God will use your skills later and maybe for a higher purpose. So that's how I see it. So as a result of being quite good in English, I was able to do well in my exams later on the public exam and eventually being able to get into college and major in English.




Warwick Fairfax:

How did you go to college and what did your family think? Because that seems like a notion hard to comprehend from your family. So talk about that was a massive shift.




Alice Tsang:

Yeah, well I mean all along the plan was I feel like we do one thing, one step at a time. Don't think too far. We couldn't afford to, so let's finish high school, you get a job. And I was looking at the possibility, okay, there's an exam to take for me to see if I can get to the next step. If I could, then let's think about it. So this is why I think you said my experience had been remarkable. The remarkable thing is, things that are so unlikely to happen actually did because now looking back, there's a guiding hand there to open the doors for me, in spite of my kind of short vision, really nearsightedness in a way by necessity we couldn't think too far down the road. The fact that I was able to get into University of Hong Kong, which was not easy in those days.




Alice Tsang:

Most of the students going in came from upper middle class families, especially the discipline that I went into. I was having classmates that graduated from schools that where they attended, they were taught by foreigners, many nuns, and reverends, and so on, westerners. I had to compete with them, and the fact that I almost fail sometimes, that's kind of a, not so much a scarlet letter you know something like a P on my forehead. When people see me, I mean they already know that I'm from a very poor family, I don't belong.




Alice Tsang:

So this sense of not belonging to the university and then later on when I entered the various firms that I worked in persists and persisted until more recent years. And so this is what I want to encourage others that, yeah, okay so you need to be able to have someone that you can always trust and you believe that He's the almighty and He's guiding you and He will help you overcome. Now whatever background you are coming from, whether it is likely or not likely that you get into those institutions, if you are there, you belong, right? You have the ability to contribute to the success of those organizations as long as you do well. And don't worry about whether you came from the circles that do not mingle with those who are already populating those organizations and do not waste time.




Gary Schneeberger:

This is a perfect time for me to jump in because we're not too far past your childhood and we're about to transition into your professional career. But there was something you said when we talked before the recorders were turned on, a quote you said that I want listeners to hear because it applies to their own crucible experiences. You said this about your childhood. "My childhood ended up not being a bad thing." You told us, "Perspective is very important. I learned a one day at a time mentality." You've just described what that is, how that worked for you as you were going through your education. And that is something that Warwick stresses all the time. This do the next right thing, take one small step at a time. That's how you get beyond the crucible. And your crucible certainly was difficult, you've just described it.




Gary Schneeberger:

But now we're moving into that transition period where things, I don't know if they get easier, that's the wrong word. Things begin to, you begin to achieve some things that put you on the path to your life of significance. And that's what we talk about here all the time. So I just wanted listeners to hear that idea, that Alice, you heard her talk about her childhood and she says, "It ended up not being a bad thing." That's not far off. Guests who have said to us on this very show, "My crucible was a gift." Right? Alice is saying sort of the same thing. It wasn't that bad of a situation. It taught her how to take a one day at a time approach to things. That's what we try to do here too. So I just wanted to drop that in Warwick, before we get too far through her story. It seems like we're right in the middle of Alice's story here. So I wanted to get that in.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean that's such a good point, Gary, that Alice has such a great perspective on how she grew up and didn't let those experiences define her. She just kept one, right? What's the next right step each time? Just not being limited by other people's limiting expectations, be it a family or the middle class, upper middle class. In all cultures, unfortunately on the planet, there's tends to be class structure and I don't know, just the nature of human beings I guess. But again, graduating from university is remarkable. But then the remarkable with Alice saying doesn't stop. There's another, there's always one more step of remarkable, one more step. What's the next, right, remarkable step. So you ended up moving to the US getting an MBA in finance at New York University, NYU, and working on Wall Street. I mean for somebody that said I flunked math and it was at one point majoring in English, how in the world did you get to NYU and finance, and Wall Street? That seemed like a remarkable transition. How'd that happen?




Alice Tsang:

Okay, so this is the thing about doing things one thing at a time, not being able to think too far ahead. At some point, I ended up teaching high school English in Hong Kong for a few years before thinking about getting a higher education so that I can progress in my career. The goal was to get a degree in education, but at the time I had a mentor, he advised me that, "Well, maybe you should consider getting an MBA." And I say, "Are you kidding me? I can't even 1 and 1, add to 3." I know that's probably what I could do. And so he said, "Yeah, why don't you give it a try? And you can take some classes and so on." So I did and I went to some community college and later on enrolled in a state university to take the business classes and I found out that I actually was able to learn and I was able to do fairly well.




Alice Tsang:

So eventually, I took the GMAT and then applied to NYU and got in, Hey, why not, right? It was good. NYU was pretty strong in finance, so I ended up majoring in finance and got a degree there and did pretty well. The transition, right? You know from being a student to working on Wall Street. Now that was a lot more difficult. I would consider that almost a fairly short period, not too long, probably the wilderness years because I was not able to find something that will recognize my MBA degree in finance, making very little money in the beginning. And so it was tough, but eventually, because I still try to excel in whatever I did and learned from what I was doing, I ended up being introduced to my boss's friend who was the director of research at EF Hutton at the time, EF Hutton was a pretty reputable firm.




Alice Tsang:

I think it was second only to Merrill Lynch in those days. So I was able to get in as a junior analyst, and before long I made a name for myself. Even though at the time I went in to the firm, I barely know the abbreviation of the 50 states of America. But by the time I left, I was already quite known to my clients and eventually I actually got some awards for what I did later on.




Alice Tsang:

So it's not any big deal, but looking back at where I came from, totally not even expecting going to high school, finishing high school or college and then now having a job on Wall Street. And that was a dream come true. And eventually I have to say that my family and I were able to live the American dream. So that is something that I just want to point out why I feel very grateful for what I had been given and I want to be able to give back in many ways.




Warwick Fairfax:

Talk a bit about those years because this was, I think back in the eighties and life wasn't easy, and you faced setbacks, frankly, discrimination, if not racism. Being a woman from Asia, you have a very interesting perspective. You acknowledge it, you don't sugarcoat it, but yet you found a way to push back and overcome. So just talk about those years because that was a crucible of its own, just the blatant discrimination, sexism you faced. So talk about what happened and how you dealt with it, pushback and overcame it.




Alice Tsang:

Sure, yes. Yeah, I think discrimination in those years in the eighties, definitely... First I told you already, right? Because I grew up somewhere else. I spoke English with an accent. I'm still speaking with an accent and I was not well-connected. I don't, and I didn't play golf. I had no clue about sports. In those days, and then that's all the traders and promoting managers, and most people I work with, they would be bending, using their own language.




Alice Tsang:

So I don't really feel I belong in the way that you would expect when you work in some place, you know you become part of the community. So I always feel like somewhat of an outsider, but instead of feeling upset about not being included, I learned how to focus my time. So one thing that I found out is just spend your time well, be productive, concentrate on the positive because the learning opportunities were precious and I did learn a lot of things during my time working wherever I work, there are so many things that I could learn. And what I learned make me a better person because then I can share my knowledge with others. So that's how I see myself being a better person. Not so much I'm superior to anybody else, but I do have something to share with others. So that is what I consider improvement or being better. So by being able to focus on what I could do better, I could do more. I ended up making a name for myself and I didn't set out doing so, but that was the outcome.




Alice Tsang:

So that was positive and as a result I was able to move to other places as well. Very interesting, different experiences also. That's what I found, not just being pigeonholed into one particular sector. I was able to learn different sectors. Even though I was a fixed income analyst, the things I learned, I picked up over time, helped me a lot. And especially looking back, I become a better investor. And that is something that God was preparing me for down the road because we ended up having a few dollars to invest. And the skills that I picked up while I was working in the financial sector was very helpful. And this is something that I also was able to share with my students, with people that I encounter who are having financial challenges to encourage them.




Warwick Fairfax:

One of the things you mentioned to us before, which I thought was really fascinating is because of, it's the eighties discrimination, you may not have got paid as much as you should given the work you were doing, but you mentioned you found a way around that because you were just a good investor and so maybe you made more than some. So it's like, okay fine, they don't want to pay me as much as they should. I'll find a way around this, I'll just be a smart investor. And you knew fixed income and other things. So I just found that fascinating. You found a way around that obstacle, it didn't hold you back, you found a way to make money somewhere else. So talk about the attitude that's behind that, because that's a really intriguing attitude you have to life. That's just one example. That's sort of an Alice Tsang way of doing things, right? There's an obstacle? Great, I'll find a way around it.




Alice Tsang:

Yes, yes. So thank you for bringing this up. So one thing that I am quite sure, usually you don't know, but I'm not the kind that would file lawsuit against people because I'm kind of mistreated or unfairly treated. Even though I believe, I strongly believe if there is something to discover how the pay scale works and whatnot in the organizations where I have served, that could potentially be the truth. But that doesn't bother me at all. For one thing, remember where I came from. So having a job in those organizations to me is already such a blessing. I was not paid poorly. I mean I made good money, did I get pay as well as my colleagues? Maybe not, but doesn't matter. You know you focus your time in doing constructive things and somehow if you don't get the money in here, there are opportunities for you to get your compensation somewhere else.




Alice Tsang:

So there were opportunities for me to invest and I just save good money, and invest, and to me is even better because my investment is under my control. The pay is not so much under my control, if you get my drift? So by recognizing that I actually feel more empowered and that's what I would share with folks who are feeling bitter or just upset. Okay, so look through what you are experiencing, but there are ways you create opportunities for yourselves. And this is what I really want to come across over the years I probably could have, if I were not Asian, woman, no connections and so on, I probably would have had a lot more opportunities if I had been another race and so on. But it doesn't matter. The important thing is somehow you are empowered and you create opportunities for yourself and you can do it.




Alice Tsang:

And I find it doable and we have done that. And so right now, while I never had imagined, so we may be getting to this later, being a college professor, when I should be long retired. Somehow this is an opportunity that God prepared for me and I feel like the calling is something that I should accept and just go through that door. And also, as a result of the ability to invest, we have started a small business which again, was not anticipated. And so we are doing pretty well, having a recurring source of income that help me be able to teach as a volunteer.




Alice Tsang:

So I think that is something to celebrate. And I want to emphasize the fact that I had nothing growing up and now we do have quite a bit and I feel so grateful. There's no bitterness that I feel, no matter what experience I had, could that have been better? It does not matter, because what matters is I have so much more than what I was growing up with and I feel extremely grateful and that actually gives me peace of mind because now I can be encouraging others and helping others in a substantive way.




Warwick Fairfax:

So let's talk about that transition because you were doing well on Wall Street. I think as you mentioned, fixed income analyst, you could have stayed there and probably continued to, well hopefully despite the barriers rise up, do well, well even better than you did, which you did very well. But you made a decision to teach first at Gordon College, a Christian College in Massachusetts for a number of years and now and Taylor University in Indiana another Christian college. What made you feel led that the next right step and your remarkable journey if you will, what led you to shift from Wall Street to teaching?




Alice Tsang:

One thing that was health, I retired from Fidelity in 2008, and that all hell broke loose right now because of my work. The company is a huge investor in the market. So we were, all of us working there had witnessed a lot of developments and I was one of the analysts analyzing the firms that were experiencing huge problems. And truth be told, we were analyzing the unanalyzable. If you look at the actions or the lack of solutions, even at the Fed level, Federal Reserve level, know who will we right to be able to analyze and predict what's going to happen? So the stress of the work and just a lot of pressure and so on. And there's also this people who work for retirement, right? Early retirement. And there was this thought about, "Okay, so how much is enough for you to retire comfortably?"




Alice Tsang:

And at the time when I retired, we had more than, so the health issue was something that was bothering me and the need to stay at work for till very late every evening. So eventually, I think that was the right thing to do. And after I retired, I was trying to find something to share my experience that can enable me to share my experience with others. This teaching opportunity came up also very unexpectedly when I was visiting a former colleague of Fidelity who was teaching at Gordon. And so he invited me to one of his classes as a speaker and we started talking and then later on the department chair of Gordon, like economics and business invited me to apply for an adjunct professorship and I started teaching as an adjunct professor and then the following year they made me full-time.




Warwick Fairfax:

You have a passion for financial literacy in particular to financial literacy for underserved communities. Talk a bit about what that is and why it's your passion?




Alice Tsang:

So coming back to my own background, one thing that is somehow to me is a misconception is, a lot of minority groups that in a low income families, they don't see the need for financial literacy or knowing about finance. Several things. One is, well I don't have money so I don't need to know about financial planning. There's nothing to plan. So since I don't have money, why do I need to know about financial planning? Now that cannot be further from the truth. The less you have, the more important it's to plan well, right? Because you know you want to get from nothing to having a little, a little bit more, and then more, and more, and more so that you can achieve financial security. So that's very important.




Alice Tsang:

So if I'm in this group, then I would spend $4 or $5 on the coffee every day. Why not? I don't have too much money, but this is a treat for me. And then even if I save it doesn't amount to much. Like yes, listen to me. Small things when you accumulate, it can grow, and then you would end up having a decent amount to start investing. So that is something very important to share with people in that group.




Alice Tsang:

Underserved communities tend to get scammed if they don't have financial literacy because they don't have much. And someone usually would come along and say, "Hey, you know what? I can help you get rich quickly." "I'm in." So whatever little that they would kind of flock over and then they end up losing whatever little they have. And so knowing more about finance, how to avoid fraud, scam, learning to do things patiently, doing real investing instead of succumbing to all the get rich quick schemes, that would end up serving them much better than having them be convinced that they can actually cut corners. The only people that will get rich quick from the whole transaction is the people who scam them.




Alice Tsang:

The other thing is, we want to have more harmony in society. So the income inequality and so forth. You have the underserved constantly having nothing or very little, while the other people who knows better more about finance, financial planning. Then you have the gap widen. So we really need to do something constructive to bring the two groups together, not necessarily through income distribution, but by sharing the knowledge, like promoting financial literacy among the underserved, you empower them so they learn how to create opportunities for themselves, and they feel a lot more fulfilled. And that's what I think your website is trying to advocate, right? To espouse, to give people the ability, the power to look beyond their current challenges and see better things ahead. And they can do it because they already have the ability endowed in them. They just need the vision to pursue that.




Gary Schneeberger:

That sound you just heard, listener, was the captain of our plane here turning down the fastened seatbelt sign indicating it's about time to begin our descent to end this episode of Beyond the Crucible, but we're not there yet. So you can hang out of your peanut bags for a little while longer. And Warwick, I'll flip it back to you to ask the last question or two to Alice. Alice, one of the things I want to do for you in the show notes, I noticed that you're very active on LinkedIn, so I'm going to put your LinkedIn address in there for people who can engage with some of the wisdom that you've been sharing here. So we'll make sure people can find you there.




Warwick Fairfax:

So Alice, thank you so much for being here. We asked this kind of question a reasonable amount. So I think in this case I'm thinking there could be maybe a young person, maybe they're from an immigrant, maybe different background, maybe they've grown up without the advantages of stable family life, maybe they've suffered even as a young kid, maybe racism, sexism, discrimination, maybe their sights are pretty low. What would a word of hope be to that young person who thinks, "People like me never amount to much because life is not fair and kind of why bother? Because the deck is stacked against me. It's just nobody I know has succeeded. Nobody I know has got any degree of financial, not even wealth, just financial stability." What would a word of hope be? Maybe to that young person that doesn't see too much hope or future, or positive future in their lives?




Alice Tsang:

Okay, so allow me to provide a few points here. Okay, so you are growing up in a poor family, never amount to much or it is not possible to do anything. I see you being able to be the leader that can be the one who break through the barriers for your family, for your community, so you can inspire people in your community. So this is one thing that I really strongly encourage. We do not have the ability to be perfect, but we can control how much effort we put into a better future for ourselves. And if you already have the abilities but you don't see the possibility of realizing your dreams, that might be because you haven't started doing something using your ability. So a dream is a dream and you will never become reality unless you take action using your ability to do more, and more, and more.




Alice Tsang:

And as you see the results, you'll be encouraged and you will dare to do more and aspire higher. So that's what I hope will be an encouragement to someone who grew up like myself, never even in my wildest dream. And it is not just something that I say this, my mom also said to me before she passed away, she would never have dreamt. And that's like where we would have become what we would have become.




Alice Tsang:

The other thing is, we are not doing it alone. I am a believer, so God has been helping me. We also want to look around. There are people around us. If we associate with the right people who are supportive, who are encouraging, we encourage one another and support one another so that we can all move forward. And rather than saying, "Why bother?" My question is, why not give it a try?




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communication business long enough to know when the last words have been spoken at a subject and Alice Tsang just spoke it. Why not try? Indeed. So listener until the next time that we are together. Remember this, we do know that your crucible experiences are difficult.




Gary Schneeberger:

My goodness, you heard Alice talk about her growing up years and some of the challenges that she faced, but she did it with a positivity that speaks to the way that she's navigated beyond that, as she said, perspective is very important. And she learned much perspective from what she went through, the challenges that she went through. And that's what we hope, not just this episode, certainly this episode, but every episode of Beyond the Crucible helps you to do. So, we do know that your crucibles are difficult, but we also know that on the other side of those crucibles, as you learn the lessons of them, and apply them, and begin to walk out your journey, that journey can be the most rewarding one of your life, the most exciting one of your life, because where it leads is to a life of significance.




Gary Schneeberger:

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond The Crucible. Visit our website beyondthecrucible.com to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start, our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

Janine Shepherd was on track to represent her home nation of Australia in the Olympics as a cross-country skier – but then her dream, quite literally, crashed when she was hit by a utility truck while on a bicycle training exercise with her teammates. She came out the other side of that horrific accident and the 6 months of arduous recovery that followed to discover she was a paraplegic.

But as she explains to Warwick, her identity as “Janine the Machine,” the elite athlete, was not to be her destiny. She had another calling, learning to fly and training others to be pilots, and inspiring multitudes who have suffered tragedies and trials to embrace loss as their lives’ greatest teacher. 

An in-demand speaker whose Ted talk has been viewed more than 2 million times, Shepherd calls herself “a mirror to help people see their own defiant spirits.”

Her guiding philosophy? “Nothing comes easy, and if it did, it wouldn’t be worth having.”

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible.




Janine Shepherd:

Wasn't really till I got home from hospital, almost six months later, that I really realized, "Wow, this is pretty bad." I was in a wheelchair, plaster body cast, I'd lost so much weight, there was nothing left of me, I was attached to a catheter bottle, I had to learn to use a catheter. They basically told me, "You're a paraplegic, and this is the rest of your life." And I got very depressed, and I wanted to give up.

And I remember, there was this moment where I was in my room, in my bed at night, and I just thought, "No, I want to get out of here." And I can remember crawling onto the floor in my room and sobbing. And I can remember calling out into the darkness. And I always, I'm very careful with these words, "God," "universe," whatever it is that resonates with you. But I remember my prayer was, "God, just show me a way through this or show me a way out of this." And that was this moment of sort of almost brings me to tears now when I think about, but this moment of choice, where I let go. I knew that holding on to the life that I had was causing me to suffer. And it was like I had a clean slate now. And that was a gift.




Gary Schneeberger:

Emerging from the other side of a horrific traffic accident in the six months of arduous recovery that followed, to discover she's a paraplegic. That's exactly the experience our guest this week, Janine Shepherd had in 1986. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Shepherd was on track to represent her home nation of Australia in the Olympics as a cross country skier. But then, her dream quite literally crashed, when she was hit by a utility truck, while on a bicycle training exercise with her teammates. But as she explains to Warwick, her identity as Janine, the machine, the elite athlete, was not to be her destiny. She had another calling, learning to fly and to train others to be pilots and inspiring multitudes who have suffered tragedies and trials to embrace loss as their life's greatest teacher. An in-demand speaker whose TED Talk has been viewed more than 2 million times, Shepherd calls herself a mirror to help people see their own defiance spirits. Her guiding philosophy, "Nothing comes easy, and if it did, it wouldn't be worth having."




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, Janine, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Just reviewing some of your material and your story, it's just amazing. And I'm really looking forward to just your perspective, because I felt like we haven't even spoken yet and I feel like I'm learning a lot already. And I've got, I'm sure, a lot more to learn. But I love the title of a book you wrote, Defiant: A Broken Body Is Not a Broken Person. My gosh, I love, love that title. That is just amazing. So obviously, there is the key crucible moment, but I'd love to just hear a bit about a young Janine, growing up, sort of hopes, dreams, maybe some of the threads maybe went a different direction, but maybe some of the threads went in the direction you're going now, though maybe you didn't realize it as a young Janine. But tell us, what was life like for Janine growing up?




Janine Shepherd:

Well, that's a great question. I don't often get asked about those early years. Well, I was an athlete. My whole life revolved around sport. I always thought I was going to the Olympics, and I'd gone from track and field, athletics, all sorts of sports. I played many, many sports and then, found myself in the unlikely sport for an Australian of cross country skiing. And people go, "Oh, is there snow in Australia?" And I go, "Yeah, there is." And it's actually ideal for cross country skiing. And cross country skiing was a marriage of my whole background of endurance sports, triathlon, marathon, things like that, and just grit. Cross country skiing is looked upon as being probably the toughest aerobic sport in the world. So when I found myself in cross country skiing, sort of later in life, when I was at really starting uni, and picked it up so quickly and thought, "This is my sport. This is the one."

And I sort of climbed the ranks really quickly, became a member of the Australian Ski Team, had my sights set on the Olympics, was invited by the Canadian Ski Team coach to join up with their team in preparation for the Olympics. I was on top of the world. I felt like, "This is my destiny. Everything I've worked towards is getting me to the '88 Winter Olympics in Calgary." So that's where I found myself. My whole life sort of building up to the Olympics, my background in sport, my background in endurance sports. Yeah, my nickname was Janine, the Machine. And I'll tell you a funny story about that later. Because I trained harder, always trained with the guys. I just, yeah, I was a machine.




Warwick Fairfax:

So where did some of that adventurous machine-like qualities come from? From your parents, grandparents, friends? Not everybody grows up with that just the tenacity and "Whatever I do, I'm just going to go for it." You just sounded like you had that adventurous... Some people are so afraid of risks and failing that they don't try and do anything, but that did not seem to be who you were. Where did that sense of machine-like adventurous go for it spirit come from?




Janine Shepherd:

Well, I think I've always pushed myself, and my early life was in Dural. You probably know where that is. It's sort of considered my grandfather came from, they had a peach orchard. My grandfather actually was a POW. I remember listening to a recording of his once, talking about how we had a lot of similarities, and he was a Japanese prisoner of war, built the railway. I feel like a lot of that, what my grandfather, that defiance and the stories that he had about wartime, I can sort of relate to a lot of that.

And so, I think my parents, we lived a very sort of a frugal life. They weren't in any way wealthy. We lived in Dural. We lived on property from a peach orchard. And I think a lot of that was just that you got to really work hard. You got to just to get ahead. And I had that mentality. And I think I had, I guess, my gift was in sport and physical abilities. And so, I just always thought that was how I defined myself. My body was my strength. And that was a really important part of my story, because I lost the thing that I thought defined myself. So it was the perfect experience for me to lose that.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow, that's an amazing. Well, let's push pause there. We'll have to come back to that, because that's an incredible statement of what you just said. Talk about that day in 1986. From what I understand, you were training in the Blue Mountains, which my parents had a cabin there in Blackheath, so I'm pretty familiar with the Blue Mountains. It's a beautiful place. So talk about that. You were training one day in the Blue Mountains, and you just tell us about that day.




Janine Shepherd:

Yeah, so we were on a bike ride with my teammates. There were probably maybe 30 of us. We did it a few times a year. We rode from Sydney up to the Blue Mountains, which is about a six hour ride, pretty grueling up through the hills, which I loved. I always loved the hills, trained on the hills. It's my catchphrase, "Love the hills." And we'd been on our bikes for around five and a half hours. And I hadn't been well leading up to that day. In fact, it's funny, I always look back and think, "Oh, was I meant to go on that ride?" I'd been at uni, I had been overtraining, I hadn't been well, I'd had some blood tests, and I probably shouldn't have gone. But I dragged myself out of bed, and all my mates were going. So off we went, and I was really tired.

I remember I was on that hill thinking, "Oh, this is really hard work." And I just remember looking up, seeing the sun shining in my face. And then, that's it. That's my last memory. And I was run over by a speeding truck. That's my crucible moment. That's the moment that changed my life. And suffered extensive injuries. I actually have no memory of the accident. The doctor said I had post-traumatic amnesia. And the reason I don't remember is I left my body, and I broke my neck and my back in six places, broke five ribs on my left side, my arm, my collarbone, bones in my feet, lost about five liters of blood. I shouldn't have survived. The speed that the driver was going. And some people saw there's something flying through the air, which was my body, and they stopped and ran back.

And couple of guys in a utility truck had gotten out, and they were about to lift me up and put me in a car. And this lady, called Elizabeth, who's my soulmate, stopped them, and she just got blankets or pieces of clothes and put them over me. And the ambulance was there very quickly. And had she not done that, I probably wouldn't, well, wouldn't have walked, wouldn't have survived. But she just sat with me. And that's an incredible story too. And I have since connected with the ambulance driver that picked me up as well. And he said, "She's not dying on my shift." And he got to the hospital, I only found this out fairly recently, the United Kingdom. And of course, I turned up, and this was, he'd never seen anything like this. And Gary, the paramedic, had said, "Well, should we call the helicopter from Sydney?"

And he said, "No, she's not going to make it." And so, Gary went and pulled out his mate, who was a surgeon at the time in theater and said, "Please come and see this girl." And this doctor handed over, came out of theater, came into emergency, looked at me and said, "I'm taking over. Stand aside," to this young doctor, who was out of his depth and just, they called the helicopter up. They got blood flown up from Sydney. They flew me down to a specialist spinal unit. And that's where I stayed for the next six months. But if it hadn't also been all of these sort of moments that were aligning, Gary, pulling his mate out of theater, coming to see me, all of these things, there were all these people that sort of intervened along the way. And had it not been for them, I certainly wouldn't be here.

I do remember leaving my body. I do remember having, what I call, we like to say near-death experience, I say it was a death experience, because I had this sort of moment of choice. "Do I go back to my body? That body is broken, it can't serve me anymore." And the really interesting thing about that, and people ask me about that, all the time, people are asking about, "What's it like? What happened? What did you see?" And I say, "Well, I didn't come back to teach people about that. I came back to teach people how to live in this life." And I had to learn that too. Making a choice to come back to a paralyzed, broken body, as I said, was probably the thing that I needed to experience.

And I needed it, because loss is a great teacher. And I always say, "It doesn't just show us who we are, it shows us who we're not." The lesson of that was, I'm not my body. I remember opening my eyes and seeing my father's face and thinking, just being utterly confused. "This is not what I wanted." And I guess that's where the journey began, the journey of disability, of really coming to terms with that loss and the grief. And even though I spent almost six months in hospital, and that was paralyzed, flat on my back, looking up through a mirror that was hanging above me. Actually, it was a very challenging situation, but it was also one of the most enriching experiences that I've ever had. And it taught me a lot about myself and about life and about other people, and really stripped me of any sense of entitlement.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. And I definitely want to go there. But obviously, there initially must have been some anger, frustration. One question occurs to me, because one of the Resilience Checklists, you've got forgiveness, obviously, one of the big ones up there, maybe number one, is forgive that young guy in the truck, that was driving too fast and was doing... Sometimes it's not people's fault, sometimes it really is. And sure seemed like it was that person. So I'm assuming you must have given this checklist, how did you manage to forgive? There's acceptance of your situation, which is tough enough, but how did you manage to forgive that person?




Janine Shepherd:

That's a great question. And my Resilience Checklist, which is what I say, the 12 steps that I actually took to recover. I'll just get to forgiveness in a sec. When I was in hospital, I wasn't really angry. There was one particular time where I got very, very depressed, when I thought I was counting down the weeks till I got out of bed. And then, the doctors came and said, "Well, actually, no, we're going to start the clock again. It's another two months." And I just felt like giving up. And they did something was very wise and clever, which is they moved me next to someone who was much more injured than I was. So they moved me next to a young girl called Maria. We were similar in age, and she was a complete quadriplegic, who'd been in the back of a car that had had an accident.

I could never complain, because I looked at her and she was in a much worse situation than I was. And she was also an incredible human being. She was always smiling, always happy. And she taught me a lot about what it means to accept. And we became great friends. So that also came, we talk about these interventions, things that have happened in my life just at the right time, that have showed me and taught me a lesson. And so, it wasn't really till I got home from hospital, almost six months later, that I really realized, "Wow, this is pretty bad." I was in a wheelchair, plaster body cast, I'd lost so much weight, there was nothing left of me, I was attached to a catheter bottle, I had to learn to use a catheter. They basically told me, "You're a paraplegic, and this is the rest of your life."

And I got very depressed, and I wanted to give up. And I remember there was this moment where I was in my room, in my bed at night, and I just thought, "No, I want to get out of here." And I can remember crawling onto the floor in my room and sobbing. And I can remember crawling out into the darkness. And I'm very careful with these words, "God," "universe," whatever it is that resonates with you. But I remember my prayer was, "God, just show me a way through this or show me a way out of this." And that was this moment of sort of almost brings me to tears now when I think about, but this moment of choice, where I let go. I knew that holding on to the life that I had was causing me to suffer. And it was like I had a clean slate now.

And that was a gift, because my life revolved around sport and training and that's who I was. And now, it was like, "Okay, this is a rebirth, a new beginning." And it wasn't until I got to that point, that letting go, that my life literally changed. It was as if my eyes were open to a new way of seeing. And of course, that's the moment when, after that, when I was outside and an airplane flew over, and I looked up and thought, "Okay, if I can't walk, then maybe I can fly." It was ridiculous, but that was the letting go.

And part of that, and I'll tie that into forgiveness, is realizing that, by holding onto my anger towards the driver, who was suffering? I was suffering. So I did some exercises, I wrote a forgiveness letter, I posted it to him, even though I didn't have his address. And that was really symbolic for me. And I always say, "You don't forgive to let someone off the hook, you forgive to let yourself off the hook." That's one of the very practical things that I did to, well, let us both off the hook really, but there was a hard one, that was the black belt forgiveness. Because he was charged. He was charged with negligent driving, and he got an $80 fine.




Gary Schneeberger:

Oh my.




Warwick Fairfax:

Seriously? $80 for what has put you through or anybody through? $80 for a six month body cast and permanent disability? That's just, yeah, doesn't seem like justice. But I guess the law is the law. But wow.




Janine Shepherd:

And I thank him now. I know his name, and it's taught me a lot. I can't imagine a better way to learn about forgiveness than the person that ran you over and changed your life forever, which now it's been a gift. It is a gift. It always has been. But I like to say to people, I talk about WTGIT, what's the gift in this? And there's always a gift.




Gary Schneeberger:

One of the things that you said to me when we first talked comes to mind now, and that is, you said, as you were just describing what you were describing, how difficult that was, how painful that was, how forgiveness was difficult, how you were in this facing this uncertain future, you said that you realized, in that moment, that maybe rock bottom was a great place to start figuring out what your life was going to be. That was a turning point. And I want listeners to both hear what you said to me off air and then, hear what you say now. Rock bottom can be a gift. Rock bottom can be the turning point. It can be Go on the monopoly board of life. And that's what you experienced, right?




Janine Shepherd:

Yeah, absolutely. Rock bottom is the perfect place, the only place, at times, to start. And I think we can go through life and we have all these things that the sort of scaffolding that we place around ourselves, the way that we define ourselves. We define ourselves through our jobs, through our relationships, through the things we own, our car, our house. And when you lose all of those things, that's when the inner journey really starts. That's when you get to ask the really important questions. "Well, who am I? What is my purpose in life?" And these are really important questions that we don't often get to the point where we ask those questions, because we've got such busy lives, things around us that we think form our identity. And so, as I said, with sport and my body, with this strong body, I really had to ask those questions to dive deep.

And it was a gift, because I realized, my TED Talk, the original title was, You're Not Your Body, it's now, TED, when they put it on their site, changed it to A broken body isn't a broken person. But when I was speaking with Mike Lundgren, the curator of TEDxKC, and he said, "Wow, what an incredible story. What's the most important thing you learned?" And I sort of thought, "Hmm, all right, well, I guess the most important question is I'm not my body." And that's important, because we're not our jobs, we're not our relationships, we're not our home, we're not our car, we're not anything that we think defines us. And when we build our identity on things, it's a very slippery slope.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. There's so much wisdom in what you're saying, it's hard to know which thread to pull on. But I try and pull on as many as I can. It's just amazing, because these are things that come up from time to time. It's just I'm both learning, but just some of the things you're saying about forgiveness, you forgive, because you are kind of worth it. One of the phrases we talk about is "Lack of forgiveness is like drinking poison. It destroys you." And so, by forgiving, you get out of prison, stop drinking poison, and it's exactly what you are saying. And you use the word "choice," which is such a good word. You can't choose some of the consequences of what happened to you, but you can choose how you choose to react to that and reframe it, which is what you've done magnificently. You talk about blessing. I have a feeling you probably learnt these things a lot quicker than I did, because some of these concepts are more recent ones for me.




Janine Shepherd:

One of the things about my speaking is I don't stand up and say, "Life is great. You can do anything." My message is, life is tough. Life is really tough. Life is filled with hills. Once you accept that, then the fact that it has hills doesn't matter anymore. You can sort of roll up your sleeves and go, "Okay, well, this is what it's about. I have this awareness, and now, I know what it's all about." And yeah, we're all going through it. We all have our crucibles, we all have our challenges, we've got to stay in our lane. Comparison is a thief of joy. And that's one of the challenges that we have living in an age of social media that we have. And talking about my TED Talk, I'm a great fan of Joseph Campbell, the great mythologist, who wrote about the Hero's Journey. So my TED Talk, which you'll see has five chairs on stage, is actually created around Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey.

And each chair, when I was planning my talk, each chair represented a challenge or a struggle and an insight, until the final insight "I'm not my body." So I've actually done workshops at, I call it the chair five chair workshop, where I get people to actually think about where they are now, which chair are they on? Are they on the chair of acceptance? And looking at whatever struggle they've got. Because you see, life is about patterns. We're continually going through these challenges. The hills never stop. You get over one hill. "Oh, great." It's not like, "Okay, that's it, I've done it." It's like, "Okay, the next one's coming." And once you see the pattern, then it becomes almost like a game. You start to sort of go, "Yeah, I get this. I know where I am now. Okay, what are the tools that I used? What are the tools in my toolkit? What can I use? Which one will I pull out now?"

And so, it's really fun to look at it like that, to look at everything is, as I think, Gary, we talked about this, things don't happen to us, they happen for us. So "What can I learn from this? What tools have I developed?" And that's where my PhD is based on that at the moment, the resilience course that I wrote, based on the steps that I took in my recovery. And so, I'm even sitting here looking at them now, going, "Okay, now which one can I use now?" And I also, this morning, actually, I was listening to your interview with my dear friend, Dr. Suzy Green.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, she's fabulous.




Janine Shepherd:

Yeah. In fact, I've got a picture behind us, you probably can't see it, which is, from Suzy, a strengths chart. So my resilience course is based on positive psychology interventions. And the last step on this course is gratitude. And I look back, when I was in hospital, gratitude wasn't even a thing. And now, it's the most highly researched aspect of positive psychology. But I decided, very early on, that every single person that came in to visit me, I'd be grateful, and I would thank them for coming in. And what I didn't know what we know now is that gratitude changes our brains. And there's a lot of positive psychology interventions around gratitude. But that simple act of saying "thank you" and being grateful allowed me to lie in that hospital bed for almost six months. And it's my go-to tool even today. Every morning, "What am I grateful for?"




Warwick Fairfax:

It's so important. One of the things I'm thinking of is, your whole life, you trained as an Olympic athlete, there was this determination, I love the phrase you used, Janine, the Machine, as I'm thinking back, none of that was... Well, the core of that was never lost. The physical part, but Janine, the Machine just moved in a different direction. "Yeah, okay, I'm injured. Great. There's a big hill. I love hills. Let's power up the hill. Okay, there's a challenge. I can do this." So I just feel like that inherent training wasn't lost. You thought you were training for the Olympics, you were training for the Olympics, it was just a different Olympics, not one you entered into, nor would anybody want to sign up up for. But does that make sense that your determination, your training, the Janine Machine mentality, you used every part of that to come back from your crucible and to get to a point of gratitude, does that kind of make sense?




Janine Shepherd:

Oh, absolutely. And along the journey, I've learned so many lessons. I've dived into acceptance and commitment therapy. I've learned mindfulness training and meditation, and I've learned about letting go. I've learned about loosening my grip on the things that I think define me all my life. Every single day is a challenge when you have a disability. Every day, you wake up and you get out of bed. It's like, "Okay, I need to pull out these tools in my toolkit," because it is challenging. And I do laugh, that I have a friend that came around recently and said, "You know what? I think you've moved on from Janine the Machine."




Warwick Fairfax:

Oh, really?




Janine Shepherd:

And gave me a new nickname, which is hilarious, and calls me Janini Linguini.




Warwick Fairfax:

Really?




Janine Shepherd:

Which I thought, "Yeah, okay, I'm going to embrace my inner Janinin Linguini." Linguini, which is flexible and goes with the flow. And so, that's my new nickname now, Janini Linguini.




Warwick Fairfax:

There you go. That is a good one.




Gary Schneeberger:

I suspect that Warwick's going to get you up in the air here soon. Before we get you, as a pilot, again, we do pre-interview calls with all guests, just so we have the ability to ask informed questions. And I have my notes from our pre-interview call right here. And I wrote this question down when we first started talking, to ask you, when you think back, you were on the trajectory to go to the Olympics, and now, you're doing what you're doing now, as a speaker, as an educator, about resilience. And I asked you, "Is there any way that you can compare it? Is this more gratifying?"

And here's what you said to me. I'm going to read it right here to make sure that I got it right. "I was never going to the Olympics," you said. "My life was always laid out like this." That, talking about, and we'll give you listener, where you can find this Resilience Checklist, that shows someone who's completed the 12 steps, who's not just completed them, but had to learn them, had to then teach them, that's a pretty bold statement to make. Obviously, you stand by that statement, that your life was never about the Olympics, right?




Janine Shepherd:

Oh, yeah. No, it wasn't. And I'm a believer that we have a destiny, that we have a sacred contract in life, and we need to get onto that path. And when we're on that path, we just know it. It's this intuitive internal knowing of "This is what I'm meant to do." And as hard as it's been, these are the experiences that I needed to have. And I also believe that we're not given anything without also being given the strength to rise to the challenge.




Warwick Fairfax:

I just want to dwell on that thought that Gary mentioned. I was really struck by that, when you said, "I was never going to the Olympics. My life was always laid out like this." That's reframing and acceptance at an incredible level, as I try to put that on in my life, saying, "Well, how would that apply to me?" And our probably listeners are thinking, "Gee, what would that mean for me?" And the translation for me would be I was never going to be in a leading position to be in charge of John Fairfax Limited, even though, in theory, in terms of shares and various other things, in theory, if I'd waited long enough, I probably would've been, just objectively. But yet, reframing says there was always a greater purpose or different purpose, and being a person of faith and from my theological construct that God is sovereign and he has a sovereign will, and despite my stupidity and naivety, if he wanted it to happen, it would've.

But it was always the plan for it not to happen doesn't remove any of the stupid choices I made. But as I look back on it, I'm very grateful, because I've been married over 30 years to my wife, who's American. I have three adult kids. I love what I do at Beyond the Crucible. My kids are all hardworking, humble, thriving people. That would've been really tough for them growing up in a wealthy background in Sydney. So I look at my life, and I feel incredibly blessed. The crucible, it's a different crucible. Every once in a while, there's a little twinge. "Gosh, look what I did. And gosh, how stupid was I?" But yeah, there's a sense of acceptance and blessing. But that notion, I'd never thought about it that way, saying, "I was never going to be in charge of John Fairfax Limited."

That's with the application of your principle, if you will. That's a powerful principle that I think that a lot of people can use. Thinking, if you believe in destiny, "What happened was my destiny. How can I use this? What's the meaning? And what's the purpose?" You and Suzy, I'm sure, know a lot more about this than I do. But when you find meaning and purpose out of a crucible, that is a path to some degree of psychological healing. And that's, every day of your life, that's what you do in your own life and for others, try to help people see gratitude, meaning, and purpose in the crucible. Would that be part of the center of how you get back from your worst day, if you will?




Janine Shepherd:

Yeah. For me, it's about that whole idea of, when you can't change what's happening on the outside, you're given the opportunity to change what's happening on the inside. You have this sort of circle of influence. "What can I influence? What's in my control?" And I realized that, for me, lying paralyzed in a spinal ward, I couldn't change what was happening to my body, but I could change my reaction. I could simply decide to be thankful and grateful to everyone that came in to visit me. And the interesting thing about that is it actually is, as I said, one of the most research aspects of positive psychology now, that gratitude actually changes our brains, makes us more optimistic.

We know that, when we're optimistic, we're better problem solvers, we have better perspective, we're happier, we're healthier, we flourish. So these are actually concrete things that we can do. And deciding to reframe things is also a really important aspect of positive psychology, making the choice to say, "Okay, it didn't happen to me, it happened for me." My belief that we do have a certain destiny, and I've had enough sort of inner spiritual experiences to confirm that to me, that I am doing what I was meant to do, was never about the Olympics. It was about learning to live fully and fearlessly in this life right now.




Warwick Fairfax:

And I think what you're saying is, you talked about identity, is that, as wonderful as the Olympics are, it just felt like you realized there's a lot more to Janine Shepherd than being an Olympic elite athlete, which is wonderful, but there's a lot more to you than just that. And I don't mean to demean that at all, but I don't know if that makes any degree of sense that who you are as a human, you have so many gifts and experience, and our identity shouldn't be in one thing. It's like, does it seem a bit constricting? "Oh, who's Janine?" "Olympic athlete?" "Well, yeah, but there's a lot more to me than just that." Does that make sense? What have you learned about identity in that whole experience?




Janine Shepherd:

Absolutely, and that's why so many elite athletes struggle when they give up their sport, because they've attached themselves, "That's who I am." And as long as you do that, you never really get to ask the questions, you never really get to experience the essence of who we are, spiritual beings, having a human experience, you never really get there. And so, that's why loss has been a great teacher for me, particularly losing the thing that I thought defined who I was. And also, and there's a lot of research around this too, altruism and getting out of your own story. And I think, for me, speaking, writing, sharing my story, gave me the opportunity to hear other people's stories.

One of my favorite things when I give a presentation is I'm usually there for hours talking to people afterwards, as they share their story with me. And very early on, when I started speaking, I realized, as people shared their stories, "Well, wow, I'm not alone. I'm not the only one going through stuff." So it really got my story out of that "Why me" into the "Why not me?" I realized that we're all going through something, and there's a great healing that happens from sharing our stories, hearing other people's stories, and getting out of our own smaller story into a larger human story.




Warwick Fairfax:

And I feel like there's sort of almost drops of grace as people, I'm sure, many people have come up to you and said, "Janine, I didn't go through what you went through. I had a different crucible, but what you shared helped me, it gave me hope." Now, you're not doing this to get the thank yous or the drops of grace, but it's an inevitable byproduct that says, "Okay, I'm seeing a bit more of some grand plan or some more purpose." Does that make sense that, when people say "thank you," that, obviously, that's a gift, but it doesn't make everything go away? Clearly, there are certain things that will never go away, but there's a bit of element of healing. Do you find that, when people just show their gratitude to you?




Janine Shepherd:

Absolutely. When someone comes up and says "thank you" to me, I say "thank you" to them, because it's a circle. We're all giving and taking. And what I say is that I just carry a message when I'm on stage. I like to think that I'm holding up a mirror, so that people can see their own lives. And I think that's the thing about my storytelling or sharing on stage, which I tell a story, I weave a lot of interventions into that, that people can take away and use in their lives. But I think what I do is I get people to go, "Oh, yeah," and see a part of their life reflected in my story.

For example, looking at the chairs, "Where am I now?" And I guess there is that real sense of hope that comes from knowing that someone's been through something similar, and they've survived. So yeah, I think that we're all helping each other. There's that great sort of circle of influence that we're giving and taking and giving and taking. And that's what happens with storytelling. We are storytellers, all of us, from ancient times sitting around a fire and sharing our stories. That's how we learn, that's how we grow, that's how we get insight, and that's how we get healing.




Warwick Fairfax:

As I'm looking at some of the things in your Resilience Checklist, you've got the five principles, you were never alone. The universe always says yes. You are the producer, director, and actor in the story of your life. Choice is the most powerful tool you have. This too shall pass. And then, the 12 steps at the back, there's so much wisdom. Maybe this is an obvious question, but when you look back at what you went through, is it possible that Janine Shepherd would've had a fraction of this wisdom without that experience? It almost feels like you have Olympic level wisdom that came with an Olympic level crucible, if you will. Nobody wants to get wisdom that way, but it sure seems like... Is there any way that you could have had the depth of wisdom that you have now without what you went through? Hope there's a way to answer that question without seeming too arrogant. But I do believe you have wisdom. Let's just take it as written as the lawyers say, let's enter into evidence that Janine Shepherd has a lot of wisdom. Let's just make that assumption. You get the question.




Janine Shepherd:

Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I think we all have it. We all have an innate wisdom. It's just tapping into it. And I think that's what I work on every day is trying to understand the things in life that get in the way. It's like a dirty window. You just have to clean that window sometimes to see outside. And I think that we have so much stuff around us that gets in the way of really understanding who we are at the deepest level. And I'm a long-term meditator. To me, meditating changes our lives, because it gives us an opportunity to just quieten the mind and just to drop into something much, much deeper. And as long as we're scrolling on our phones and reading the news, it's just always about the outside. And to me, life is always about the inner journey.

And had I not had my accident, well, as I said, I can't even go there, because Gary, I was always going to have my accident. That was my destiny in this life. And it's a rich and meaningful life, and it is a blessing. And every single person that I've met along this way on this journey, that has shared my story, one thing I'll take from this is that everybody has something. Everybody has some crucible. And I know that, because I've stood and I've listened to so many stories. And I just think that's what connects us all.




Warwick Fairfax:

So I guess what I'm getting at is I'm not sure that you would've had the same level of wisdom that you do now without the accident. It's sort of like, it was sort of a catalyst, a turbocharge, maybe the wisdom was all there to be harnessed, but you still got to harness it. You still got to capture it, bring it in. You're like fishing. The fish are there. But I feel like maybe one of the greatest gifts about what you went through is the level of wisdom you have. It's hard... Obviously, there's no way of knowing what the alternative path would've been. You would've maybe different kind of wisdom. But one of the key gifts from my frame of reference in a crucible is the opportunity to have tremendous wisdom, tremendous learning that comes out of it. Does that kind of make some degree of sense?




Janine Shepherd:

Absolutely makes sense. And it's hard fought. You don't learn these things without having to go through the dark night of the soul. And I've been through many of those. I feel like my accident, which people know about, that was one thing. But I went through a marriage breakdown. I was a single mom for 10 years. I lost my home, moved to another country, with nothing behind me. I've had all these different sorts of challenges. And I think that's one thing about my story. And in my latest memoir, Defiant, I write about those different experiences. And in many ways, they were actually harder than my accident, because it involved more than just me.

Being a single mom to three kids, that was probably one of the most challenging experiences of my life. Feeling that my marriage had broken down, there was a sort of sense of guilt and failure around that. So all of these crucibles, these dark nights of the soul, nothing comes easily. And if it did, it wouldn't be worth having. If everything was just, "Hmm, okay, I've learned that," it just wouldn't have that same the potent sort of sense of meaning that it has when you've really experienced it and appreciated for what it is. All of those steps on the checklist, I look back on those, and I can see where they came from and how I learned those things and how I use them every day in my life.




Warwick Fairfax:

I feel like maybe the last word on this that occurs to me is coming back to that "choice" word, you made a choice in the phrases we used not to be defined by your worst day. You made a choice not to be defined by the crucible of the accident, of divorce, and being a single mom. Each one of those required choices. You made a choice. Not only would you not be defined by them, but you would seek to learn wisdom from them, seek to be grateful for them, and seek to see them as a gift. That all came with a choice. And after the choice came a lot of hard work.

But that, to me, is the key lesson point for listeners is we're, in some senses, sum of our choices, a choice to forgive, not necessarily condone, a choice to accept, a choice to see it as a gift, a choice to see that we're put on this earth for meaning and purpose, to serve others or serve some greater good, whatever that means for you. We're the sum of our choices, and that's kind of why you really teach, is make those choices. Take those 12 steps of acceptance, forgiveness, compassion, optimism, values, strengths, hope, meaning, humor, which I love, connection, mindfulness, gratitude. And so, you are really teaching people to make positive choices, to help use what they've been through to be grateful and to use it in service of others and a greater good. It's just really inspiring. So thank you for what you do. It's incredibly uplifting.




Janine Shepherd:

Well, I'm grateful to be given the opportunity. And it's funny, when you talk about choice, I don't know if you know the spiritual teacher, Carolyn Myss, and she talks about choice being our greatest power, because even whether you agree or not even greater than love, she said, because you've got to choose to love. So choice is very powerful. And for people out there that are struggling and feeling like they have no choice, that's also okay, because the world, the last few years, has been incredibly difficult and challenging. But even at my very lowest moments, I've always felt like I chose to come back to this body.

That was a choice. That was the ultimate choice. So I'm going to make it count. I'm going to find out why, and I'm going to create something of this life that, as difficult and challenging as it's been, it was a choice. And interestingly, I think, even though I remember clearly from my NDE, my near-death experience, and the choice to come back, we've all made that choice to be in this body. Warwick, you made the choice to be in this body you're in now. Gary, you've made the choice to be in the body you got now. So you just ask the question, "Okay, so now what?"




Gary Schneeberger:

What's great about that, you just built, Janine, a runway for me to ask this question. And it's appropriate that it's a runway, because...




Janine Shepherd:

I'm a pilot.




Gary Schneeberger:

There you go. So the part of the story that we've not gotten to, because this is so both inspirational and equipping, is, while you were in that bed, while you were in recovery, something happened, you saw something above you, and that changed the trajectory, one would say, could say, the flight path of your life. Talk about that a little bit.




Janine Shepherd:

Well, it did. That's when I decided, in a wheelchair, that, if I couldn't walk, I'd fly. And I was lifted up into an airplane, and everyone thought I was crazy. "Well, shouldn't be learning to walk?" And I went on and I became a pilot. I got my private license, my commercial license, which was crazy, because I'm actually a paraplegic, I'm a walking paraplegic. I became a flying instructor, an aerobatics flying instructor, commercial pilot. It was sort of crazy and unlikely. And flying is a great metaphor for life. My PhD title actually is, If I Can't Walk, I'll Fly. And obviously, it's physical, it's spiritual, it's metaphorical. For me, flight is the ultimate freedom. So it was perfect for me, because it's such a great spiritual metaphor about freedom. And flying really gave me my life back. Taught me a lot about, well, here I am, I'm a paraplegic, and I'm teaching people to fly upside down. I am not my body.

And I learned a lot about flying. One of the formulas that we teach people in flying, one of the first formulas, is attitude plus power equals performance. It's actually what flies an airplane from a 747 to a glider, it's a formula, mathematical formula, that doesn't fail. So I talk a lot about that in my presentations. I talk about attitude, because the attitude is with the picture of the airplane in relationship to the horizon. And I talk about our attitude, "What is our attitude to life?" Our attitude is, what I say, the story of me, built on beliefs and opinions and judgments that we've collected throughout our lives, that we don't realize how firmly we are stuck to those things, which are just things. It's not who we are. So once we get to the point where we can sort of unpack that suitcase and pull out those things and go, "Okay, well is this keeping me stuck? Is this helping or hindering me?"

And a lot of the time, when we are really struggling in life, we go back to our early childhood and our training, that has formed our attitude. And once we get to the point where we get to this sort of choiceless awareness, where we can observe things and look at things and look at them in a very objective way and be curious and go, "Hmm, where did that come from?" Then we can start to unpack it and create a new belief or a new mindset that serves us going forward, into a much healthier sense of who we are.




Gary Schneeberger:

That sounds you heard, listener, you've heard me say it before, but not many times with a pilot, and a pilot who flies upside down and teaches people how to fly upside down, that sounds you heard was the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign, indicating that we're about to descend the plane of this conversation. But we're not there yet. Before we do that, Janine, I have a couple things I want to do with you. One, who was the friend that gave you the new nickname?




Janine Shepherd:

Oh, my friend, Jim gave me the nickname, Janini Linguini.




Gary Schneeberger:

All right. With apologies to Jim, I thought of a new nickname as you were talking. Because Janine the Machine was the old nickname. Based on what you've talked about, to help you offer people to hope you offer people, I'm going to think of you as Janine the Canteen, offering a cup of cold water to people who need a sip after they slip. That's the way I'm going to think about Janine Shepherd from this moment on.




Janine Shepherd:

That's cool. Everything rhymes.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, there you go. That's the old writer in me. Before we turn it back over to Warwick and the plane is on the ground, I would be remiss if I did not let you talk about where listeners can find out more about you and the services you offer, and especially this Resilience Checklist that Warwick's been talking about. In fact, what you're going to talk about, at your website, there's also a resilience quiz that you can take for free, which I did, and I was happy to find out I'm a Weeble when I took that quiz.




Janine Shepherd:

Oh, good.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yes. So where can people find out more about Janine Shepherd online?




Janine Shepherd:

Well, I love being a Weeble. My girlfriend told me "Weebles wobble, but they never fall down."




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, indeed.




Janine Shepherd:

So good for being a Weeble. Well, they can go to my website, janineshepherd.com. They can do the free resilience test. They can follow me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, Janine_Shepherd, I think it is on Instagram. Look, I don't do Twitter very much to be honest. But really, Instagram, LinkedIn, website. And I would say, go and look at my TED Talk. Just put in Janine Shepherd TED. And that'll give people a good idea of my story and what I do.




Gary Schneeberger:

And because my last name is Schneeberger, which no one can spell or pronounce, because Warwick has a name that has a silent W in the middle, how do they spell Shepherd? Because there are a couple ways. So when they're doing the search, how do they spell your last name?




Janine Shepherd:

That's a good question, because people always spell it incorrectly.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's right.




Janine Shepherd:

So Janine, J-A-N-I-N-E, and Shepherd is S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D. And Instagram is Janine_Shepherd, LinkedIn Janine Shepherd, Twitter Janine Shepherd, website. And stay tuned. We've got lots of exciting things happening. We are, at the moment, actually about to sign off on a screenplay for my latest book, Defiant. We have a wonderful female crew working on the screenplay, director, Claire McCarthy, who's one of the top female directors in the world. So stay tuned for the movie of Defiant. I'll let you guys know.




Gary Schneeberger:

Warwick, take it away.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, thank you, Janine. I really appreciate you being here. Kind of one question that we often end on is, Beyond the Crucible, we have many listeners, and there could be some out there, who, today, might be their worst day, maybe some terrible crucible's happened to them and they're not seeing much hope. As one recent podcast guest said, "The bottom of the pit was so deep he couldn't see the bottom. There was an endless bottom that could only get worse, no light, just worse," which is an attitude, when he was at the bottom of the pit. So for those that may be today, may not be a great day, maybe their worst day, what's a word of hope you would offer somebody in that situation?




Janine Shepherd:

I know there's going to be a lot of people out there that are struggling right now, and what's really important is to be compassionate with yourself. When I have a bad day, and I still have bad days, I always have a little go-to list of things that I enjoy, that are a part of practicing self-compassion, whether it's being out in nature, listening to music, having a hot bath, being with friends, do those things. If you're having a bad day, do those things that nurture you, your sense of who you are. And of course, my go-to exercise, which is gratitude, and we know that it does change our brains. We also know, from neuroscience, that you don't actually have to find anything.

If you think, "Oh, there's nothing to be grateful for," just asking the question, "What am I grateful for?" starts the change. If you can do that for even every night or morning, get up in the morning and finish your day with "What am I grateful for?" And make it tangible. Think of the things, like, "Well, today, I called a friend and had a really good conversation. There was some agency in that, because I had to make that decision and that choice to pick up the phone." Write this down, write these things down, keep track of it, journal, keep your journal for 21 days, and then, just, at the end of that time, really check in and say, "Well, how am I now?" There's always something. I'm a firm belief that there are tools out there that we can use that can help us and give us hope, even on our darkest days.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject's been spoken, and of course, Janine Shepherd's going to land the plane perfectly. She just did. So until the next time we're together, listeners, please remember this, you've heard it in this conversation, oh my goodness, we understand that your crucible experiences are tough. We understand how painful they are. But we also understand that, if you learn the lessons of them, if you realize, as Janine talked about, in a way that was revelatory to Warwick and me, if you think about them in a way that says, "This is how your life was meant to be. This is where your destiny was set," if you think about it that way, if you learn the lessons of the crucible, if you follow some of the things on Janine's Resilience Checklist, it's not the worst day of your life, your pit, you can come out of, and you can end up in the most rewarding spot in your life, where Janine's ended up, where Warwick's ended up. And that is a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond the Crucible. Visit our website beyondthecrucible.com to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start? Our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

A violent altercation in which her enraged husband choked her was the last straw for Victoria McCooey. It left her 6-year-old son, who was in the room at the time, thinking she had been killed. But it also started her down a path of self-discovery and self-care.

On this week’s episode, McCooey tells Warwick in detail the toll that being married to a narcissist had on her identity… as his controlling ways left her feeling unworthy and ashamed. But she also describes how she fought her way back to not only find her value, but to help other abused women find theirs — first through the same nonprofit that aided her and now as a narcissist divorce coach.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.




Victoria McCooey:

My husband comes down and wants to go get bagels. He's decided that's important he's going to get bagels. So he goes to get the key to the car and it's not there. So he knows immediately that I've taken it because he's done this to me so many times, and that this is the day. This is like the pimple popped this day. He ransacked the house. He'd done this before, thrown everything everywhere, dumped out my bag looking for the keys, stomped on my cellphone and broke it, took my wallet, breaking things in half. So at one point I go. He has my wallet. I go to grab my wallet back, and now we're in this tug of war with the wallet, and I came to my senses. It was like, "I'm engaging in this crazy lunatic's behavior."

So I let go, which caused him to fall back and I think ... I'm walking away. We were in the kitchen. I'm walking away. I think that just sent him over the edge that I had made him fall and he lost his temper and he came up from behind. I don't even see it happening because I'm walking away, and he grabbed me by the throat and pinned me up against the wall and I blacked out.




Gary Schneeberger:

That violent altercation was just one example, but the last example of the abuse our guest this week, Victoria McCooey, endured in her marriage to her first husband. It left her six-year-old son who was in the room at the time thinking she had been killed, but it also started her down a path of self-discovery and self-care.

Hi. I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. On this week's episode, McCooey tells Warwick in detail the toll that being married to a narcissist had on her identity as his controlling ways left her feeling unworthy and ashamed, but she also describes how she fought her way back to not only find her value, but to help other abused women find theirs, first through the same nonprofit that aided her, and now as a narcissist divorce coach. She teaches her clients the Reclaim Your Power System she created first for herself to help them find the same freedom she's living today.




Warwick Fairfax:

Victoria, thank you so much for being on our podcast. I love what you do as a narcissist divorce coach and speaker. I love the program you have, Reclaim Your Power System. What a great name. We have all sorts of crucibles that we discuss with guests, but this whole being married to a narcissist, it seems like it's an epidemic. I can't tell you how many friends we have, women that my wife knows who've been married to narcissists. It's almost like it's this disease that's just spreading. It's just crazy. I've had personal experience in my family with people who've been married to narcissist and some personal experience at some level myself having experienced it from somebody else. So there's a lot of it out there, but before we get into what you do in your marriage, what was life like for you growing up? What was your family life pre-marriage, pre-trauma, pre-crucible?




Victoria McCooey:

People usually ask for that, but it's very telling because that was my normal. My parents had a very dysfunctional marriage. There was a lot of control and abusive behavior, and that was my comfort zone. They say you marry your father. I very much married my father.




Warwick Fairfax:

Talk a bit more about that because it just sounds so common, and it's got to be hard for people to understand. This is obviously very different, but it seems like kids that were abused growing up so often abuse their kids, and I can't at all understand that. You would think the last thing you would want to do is-




Victoria McCooey:

They would want to be the opposite.




Warwick Fairfax:

I don't pretend to understand. So just talk about a little bit more about-




Victoria McCooey:

Right. Well, it wasn't so much abuse of the children as abuse of the whole family dynamic. I'm old. I grew up in the '60s, so nobody knew about this. We certainly didn't talk about it. There was no social media or any mainstream information about this. People were private. You didn't talk about your dirty laundry. I had to assume because I didn't have anything to tell me otherwise that this is what everybody's family looked like. I had no idea that mine was so dysfunctional, but there was always yelling, screaming, throwing, not knowing if or when dad was coming home. Just so much dysfunction, so much chaos, so much anxiety.

This is really off the path, but I was diagnosed with a very rare cancer when I was 18 and it's gone. I'm fine. It was a tumor, it was removed. I was very, very lucky. It was a very rare type of thing, but I have to believe that it was the stress and the anxiety of living in that situation my entire life because our bodies aren't built to withstand that level of stress.

So as the oldest of two children, I was completely unwanted. My parents were forced to marry because that's what you ... Oh, my gosh. I've never said this on any podcast before. I hope my mother's not ever going to watch this because she's a very proper Southern woman, but she became pregnant when she was 20 years old and they got married and had a baby, and that was me. It was never what they wanted. My father was a child. He was still in college. I was a burden. I was unwanted. It caused so much ... They both thought their lives were ruined because of me. So this enormous amount of anxiety and stress of this child being burdened with feeling like they were never enough, never good enough, could never gain their approval, I honestly believe that that stress caused this crazy, unique cancer to form.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's about as awful experience as I can imagine to grow up as a child feeling like, "My parents don't want me. It wasn't an intentional relationship, it just happened, and I'm a burden, I'm in the way. Maybe I shouldn't exist," because how can you have any decent sense of self? It's going to destroy your self-esteem, your personhood. It almost feels like worse than cancer. What could be worse than cancer, but it feels cancer of a different kind, if you will.




Victoria McCooey:

I am not the only person to have this experience. How many people marry because of this circumstance, and especially way back then? So I'm not alone here. There are millions of me, people who never felt loved or welcomed in their household. So yeah, and these are the women like me that grow up with very low self-esteem. I had to figure out how to people please. It was very different from my two parents. For my father, it was to stay away from him. That was how I could exist with him. For my mother, she was so miserable. She was in this horrible marriage, forced into it, never wanted to be there. She was in her own hell. The way I got affection or attention from her was to entertain her. So I'm entertaining my mother, trying to make her laugh all the time so I get some approval and staying away from the other parent because that's how I could get approval from him.




Warwick Fairfax:

So talk about school, college. What did you enjoy doing? Did you enjoy academics, sports, the arts? What was it like for you?




Victoria McCooey:

I was an overachiever, and I talk about this freely because all of the people who are attracted to my business, to my coaching are just like me. So we are a very large niche. We are the people who end up in these relationships. As accomplished as I am, I was an overachiever, I made straight As, I got into the best college, I did everything right, but I think it was my coping mechanism. I needed to get away from my parents, so I retreated into my room and I studied just because there wasn't much else I could do without getting in the way.

That paid off for me in that I became highly educated. I moved away as soon as I could. I went away to college. Then I moved far away. I grew up in the south. I moved to New York for a job and stayed there. Ended up marrying there. So I was athletic, I was on sports teams. Whatever I pursued, I was very competitive. I had to be the best at it.




Warwick Fairfax:

So on the surface, you go to a good college, good job in New York, everything is going great. How did you meet your first husband? How did that all happen?




Victoria McCooey:

In an airport. It was a very chance meeting. We had nothing in common. There was no reason for us to have ever been in the same place at the same time. He was very charming and very handsome and very exciting. He swept me off my feet, wanted to do all kinds of amazing things. We skied, we traveled, we sailed. We had this big life. We did ... Things were very, very good for a long time, but the whole time I thought, "Oh, my gosh, he's going to figure out that I'm not good enough." So I was people pleasing throughout that entire phase.

There were signs. There were certainly red flags that I chose to ignore because I was so lucky, I thought, to be in this relationship, so I certainly am just going to look the other way, but looking back, the real change happened as soon as I had our first child. We were together. We dated for two or two and a half years, and then we got married and I got pregnant immediately, literally, honeymoon baby. So nine months later, we have our first child. That was when the mask fell. I'm guessing it was because I was in. There was no escaping. I was tied to him forever now.




Warwick Fairfax:

So up until you were pregnant, you said there might have been some little signs, but it sounds like he was a good-looking guy. He's probably accomplished, charismatic. Were you thinking, "Gosh, I'm pretty lucky. I got a good catch"?




Victoria McCooey:

I thought I was the luckiest girl in the world.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's amazing. So it didn't seem obvious. Sometimes, I don't know, it's a silly way to put it, but villains, if that's the right or wrong word, they don't always come in a black cape, "Hey, I'm a villain. Watch out." They can be very charming. It's not that obvious always, if you will.




Victoria McCooey:

Yeah, and I noticed, even back then I was noticing that my friends, people I would introduce him to, either loved him or hated him. There was no middle ground. If they bought into his narrative of who he was, then he charmed them, but if there was any doubt, if they were suspicious of him at all, he turned on them immediately and he was awful to them.




Warwick Fairfax:

That was one red flag when he is awful to some of your friends. It's like, "What's that about?" but did you not see the signs that was like, "I feel so bad about myself. I'm lucky to get anyone halfway decent," kind of thing?




Victoria McCooey:

Exactly. I really thought he was the best thing I could ever have hoped for, that that was way out of my pay grade, I really thought, and he perpetuated that like I was so lucky to have him narrative. I was just always walking on eggshells trying to be perfect, trying to do the right thing, trying to check all of his boxes, and I wanted so badly for him not to leave me. So yeah, I looked away, but that is a product of that low self-esteem and the lack of confidence and the lack of self-worth. I see this as a pattern across the board with all of the people I work with.




Warwick Fairfax:

It seems like you were almost reliving your childhood in a sense. You were thinking, "Mom, dad, I want to be the perfect daughter, the perfect person," make your mom laugh, entertain her, "How can I entertain boyfriend, fiance, husband?" as you moved on in the relationship because that's how you grew up with. So were just reliving the same cycle, if you will. Does that make sense?




Victoria McCooey:

You're right. Absolutely. Then when it became our marriage, it was, "Well, you need to do this. You need to do this. Well, in order to prove yourself to him, you need to do this," and the asks became larger and larger and more difficult and more illegal, and it went off the rails.




Warwick Fairfax:

A bit like that terrible aphorism, like a lobster boiling, it doesn't happen overnight. It's one step, one step, one step and, "I've got to please him because he might leave me and it's a miracle anybody would have me. He's good-looking. He's charming. Okay, he has his bad days, but I'm so fortunate to have him," and the self delusion cycle just keeps going because when humans are broken and damaged as we all are to a degree, it just stops a smart person thinking straight, if that makes sense.




Victoria McCooey:

You're so good. This is the quickest anyone has gotten to the root of this.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. Yeah, as we said off air, I grew up ... As listeners know very well, I grew up in a very wealthy family business in Australia, and power and money produce a lot of dysfunction. So I've had family members in relationship with narcissists. I've had some degree of, a lot, I guess, of personal experience myself. I guess because I have some experience with ... I'm no expert, but I have some personal knowledge, put it that way, maybe that's why. Sorry.




Victoria McCooey:

It does. It's a textbook. It makes perfect sense. You can totally ... I really feel vindicated when you said about the lobster. That is exactly what it's like. Back then, I was so ashamed of where it had gotten to that I was too embarrassed to confide in anyone. It's like, "How could someone as smart as I am allow myself to get into this situation?"




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, it's as simple as saying you were hurt and damaged as a child and that's why. It's that simple. It's not your fault. You put anybody in your situation, 99% of people are going to really struggle. It's just it's not your fault. Does that make sense?




Victoria McCooey:

It does to me now, but when you don't see it, when you're in it in the forest, you can't see the trees, right? It was just humiliating. I remember being at ... This is when I'm going to cry, being at a parade at this local little town we lived in, and my college roommate was there. She didn't live there. I guess she was visiting. It was like a resort town. I saw her in the crowd far away, and I went the other way. I went away from her. I haven't seen her in 10 years because I was too ashamed.




Gary Schneeberger:

I'll jump in at this point and say I'm part of the team too. I know people who I'm close to who have experienced some of the things that you coach about, Victoria. One of the things that I've heard from some of them is on that point that you mentioned of people close to you, the narcissist doesn't interact well with them. They then come to the woman share some things about that trying to defend their loved one, and that is not usually met with acceptance. That's not usually met with ... It doesn't necessarily cause problems in the relationship per se or really bombastic ones.

I remember one woman I'm close to saying that at some point her mom kept coming to her and saying, "This isn't right. That's not right. You shouldn't put up with that. You shouldn't have to put up with that." Eventually, her mother met with her rebuffs just finally said, "Okay. I'm done talking," not in an angry way but, "I'm going to let you be." Is that a common experience? I would think it is.




Victoria McCooey:

Yes, it absolutely is, but more importantly, I think, is that it's really hard for the victim here to verbalize what it is that's happening because it happened insidiously over so much time. There wasn't a day when it just started. It just snowballed in such a slow way that you can't really put your finger on what the problem is.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right, and that's the insidiousness of it going back to the lobster in the pot, right? If you ask the lobster in the pot on Tuesday, "Are you hot? Are you being boiled?" he's going to go, "No. I don't even know that it's hot in here," but over the course-




Victoria McCooey:

"No, it feels warm and comfortable."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. Exactly. Exactly, but wait two years, three years, four years, the lobster's going to have a different point of view as you indeed had a different point of view and your clients do as well.




Victoria McCooey:

I think the great thing is that because I lived this, I didn't study it, I lived it, I lived it, then I studied it, and then I understood the dynamics of it. Now, I have a unique position to help people who don't see just like I didn't see where they are and what's going on.




Warwick Fairfax:

So I want to get to that, but just so that listeners get, I guess, the full lock of the story. So-




Victoria McCooey:

You're going to make me do this more?




Warwick Fairfax:

I'm sorry, but it'll help the listener, I think, understand, I'm afraid, what's going on and then how you cope with that. So it felt like pretty good in a sense. He was charming, handsome, there were red flags, then you became pregnant. So what happened in the months and years after that when those warning signs became not in the peripheral vision, it was front and center?




Victoria McCooey:

So he became very, very cautious about who saw what was going on inside our house. So now, I wasn't allowed ... Over time, it became not allowed to have anyone over, not to allow anyone in. The requests were always about money. So I continued to have babies. I had a plan. I wanted lots and lots of kids, which I do. I had three children in three and a half years. So boom, boom, boom. I thought I was old. Of course now, I know it wasn't, but when we got married, I was 30. So I was like, "I got to get going." So boom, boom, boom, three babies. I was in a fog. I had worked at that point as a freelance writer. So if I didn't work, I didn't make money. There was no maternity leave. I was working for myself.

So when I wasn't able to work during the child birthing part, I didn't have income, but I would take projects in between as I could, but certainly, my income drastically reduced, but it was never a problem because I was led to belief that he made lots of money and there was never a money problem.

Without getting into too much detail, he owned real estate, he owned properties. So he collected rent from these properties. It was all very gray, not transparent, didn't really let me into what was going on. So while I wasn't earning, he paid everything, controlled all the money, and if I had a small project, it was like a drop in the bucket compared to what he was paying for. So he would say, "Oh, let me have that." I'll just put it toward happily. I'm not really contributing much.

Once that happened when all of my paychecks went directly to him, I could never undo that again. That set the precedent. So now, I was expected to always give him my paychecks, which continued because his reasoning was, "I'm handling everything. I'm juggling things. Only one person can be in charge here. I just need you to let me figure out what to do with the money."

Then it became his business upside down. It was a family business, a lot of family discord, all kinds of commotion. His buildings going into receivership, so he wasn't collecting rents. It was like a whole catastrophe. So what I noticed now is whenever I would push back, there would be a drama.

So I don't know how much of it is true, but whenever I would say, "Well, I'm earning money. I want to ..." Oh, but now there's drama. Now, something would erupt. That's when he started pressuring me to sign for lines of credit or loans and I would say, "I can't afford this," and he would say, "Well, this is what the family needs you to do because my credit is bad and yours is perfect. So this is what the family needs. You're not working. This is what you owe us, owe the family to do this. You don't understand. I owe millions of dollars in real estate. This is a drop in the bucket."

Then if I pushed back harder, it was, "You're stupid. You don't understand business. You're not a risk-taker. You'll never be successful. You're just a pawn. You're just someone who works for someone else. You're a nerd. You're too scared of everything," whatever he could think of. So of course, I would end up doing it, and then the next one would come and I would try harder not to do it. The more I pushed back, the worse the abuse became.




Warwick Fairfax:

It sounds like there was emotional abuse I'm assuming beyond just finances, just in general. Maybe you make the dinner, quote, unquote, "wrong" or you came home five minutes late or silly, stupid stuff. I'm guessing he'd erupt about that. Was he physically abusive too? How bad did all this stuff get?




Victoria McCooey:

He was never physically abusive until the very end, and that was when that was the line, and that was when I left.




Warwick Fairfax:

So what happened?




Victoria McCooey:

So this is a long story. I'm glad we don't have that ... I'm going to try to make it short.




Warwick Fairfax:

Sure.




Victoria McCooey:

This went on now for, I don't know, six, seven years of that financial abuse mostly, and honestly, the other abuses weren't as prevalent. Yes, name calling, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, but he didn't nitpick on things like that. I see a lot of my clients suffering from ... It wasn't that ... Yes, "Oh, you're fat," or, "You look fat in that," or physical things like that, but otherwise, nothing like some of my clients who are really struggling have.

It started when I ... The debt, the debt was so big. The debt became bigger and bigger. I could never pay this off. It just was so astronomical. Then I found out that we owed a lot of back taxes for years because his business was very difficult to account, do accounting for. It was buildings and depreciation and amortization and all these properties. He had an accountant that he had always worked with that I never met. All I was was I got some 1099s. I was all so transparent. I would just get my little receipts together, add my 1099s and go here and he would take it to the accountant and then the taxes would come back this thick and he goes, "Sign here," and I would sign because I can't figure out what is going on with his buildings.

So every year, that would happen, and it turns out those taxes were never filed. So there was no way for me to know. I didn't know. They weren't being filed. So we owed hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes. I had no idea. I'm on the hook for it as much as he is. I didn't file. The straw that broke the camel's back though was, like I said, we had three little children, all boys. I filed a claim for one of my kids, whatever happened, doctors, whatever, and it came back and they said, "Oh, you no longer have this insurance. This policy hasn't been in effect for six months." I was like, "What are you talking about?"

So this was a health insurance policy that I had had from a previous job and I was grandfathered into this very sweet deal. They didn't offer it anymore. They had been very clear that if I canceled it, I could never have it back. So the payments came monthly automatically out of an account, his account that I never saw. When I confronted him, he said, "Oh, I needed the money for something else."

I'm like, "There's nothing else that's more important than this," and he's like, "Oh, you're a nerd. You don't understand. This is for losers."

I said, "What if something happened?" and you know I had that cancer, and I was like, "I'm the poster child for you never know what could happen. If my parents hadn't had health insurance, I would be dead. So this is non-negotiable to me."

He said, "If something happened, I would just sell a building." That was always his answer, "I would just sell a building."

So I said, "I'm not taking no for an answer. We're getting health insurance."

So he said, "Well, you figure out how to get it and then let me know how much it is."

So I do all the research. I figure out I have to join an association and pay for the dues and then I can ... All this stuff. So I come to him with all of the information for the best case scenario. It's going to be way more than we were paying and not as good coverage and everything, but this is the best I can do.

He goes, "Okay. We can do that."

I'm like, "Great. So give me the money so I can pay these things."

"Well," he goes, "I can't do it this month, but ask me again next month."

So I go, "Okay." So I come back the next month, "Can't do it this month, maybe the next month." So I go, "Okay. He's never going to give me the money to pay for the insurance."

Also, if I went to the grocery store ... I'm earning six figures. I'm working from home, taking care of three kids and earning a decent amount of money and I don't have any access to any of it. So if I want to go to the grocery store, I have to make a list of what I'm going to buy, tell him exactly how much each item costs, and then he'll go through it and he'll decide, he'll veto things he doesn't think we need, and then he'll give me that exact amount, and I go to the store with three kids in tow because he was never available for what he called babysitting. They were his kids too.

So I'm at the store with all the kids, they're throwing everything into the bag and having to take it out. Now I see something that wasn't on the list that I really need that I forgot about. So now I have to recalculate what can I get rid of because I don't have a credit card, I don't have a check. I have nothing else except the exact amount he's given me. So the stress of going grocery shopping, right?

We live in this small, tiny little resort town. I know everybody in the store. I get to the counter, I'm shaking because I'm scared I added wrong in my head while I'm wrangling three little boys and I'm going to have gone over and I'm going to be humiliated. This was my ... Now I know he had to do that to me to keep me so off balance that I couldn't do anything about it. I couldn't figure out the finances. I couldn't figure out what was going on with his business. I couldn't leave. I was just trying to get through the day.




Warwick Fairfax:

This all culminated in a physical incident that caused you to say, "Enough."




Victoria McCooey:

So I decide I've got to figure this out because this isn't working. I'm going to have to steal my money from him. I actually went to a therapist. Well, I went to a doctor who told me that ... I had headaches, I had backaches. It manifests in all these ways. He said, "I think you need to see a therapist, so you need an antidepressant, but I can't give it to you unless you do it with this therapist that we work with." So I start going to this therapist too, I don't think really helped me, but at least the doctor was able to prescribe this antidepressant for this little period of time I'm going through.

So I get a little bit more clearheaded from that, and I decide that I'm going to steal the next check that comes. It was sizeable. I remember it was 6,000 something dollars. That was a lot of money, and I could get the health insurance with that. I could do everything with that, and he knew it was coming. So I had to tell him that the project had been postponed because he knew exactly when my money was coming. So I had to lie, which I'm not good at.

Then I had to live this double life and go ... This is another funny story. Go to the post office box to get the mail every day before he could to see if it had come. The reason we had to use a post office box was because he took the numbers off of our house and remove the mailbox because that way, the process servers had a harder time finding him. All day, every day there were process servers. We couldn't answer the door. We couldn't answer the phone. He was running from everyone. If you did answer the door, we had to lie and say he wasn't there. The stress of all this is crazy.

I get the check. I'm shaking like a leaf, but it's my money. I'm shaking like a leaf because I'm stealing it. I go and I deposit it into another account at a new bank he doesn't know about. Now, these are the olden days. I had to wait for it to clear. What I don't know because I had no idea, and this is how I can help my clients now, you just don't think about these things, but I gave them my address and they sent a letter saying, "Oh, here's the schedule of when your funds will be available," and he gets this. I was so close, so close.

He goes into a rage, ransacks the house, tells me, "You want control of the money? Here, you take all the bills," and he starts throwing all these things at me. "I'm never giving you another penny. I'm never ..." Just the drama, drama, drama, drama. So I try to stay calm. I go the distance. Well, the check clears, but then the money in the account is frozen because he's taken out a cellphone in my name that I don't even know about and not paid it. So there's a lien against my Social Security number that I don't even know that this is happening, and he's telling it's my fault because I'm so stupid, "See, you lost all that money because you're so stupid."

So that was pretty much ... This is all coming to a head. Then this one night, I was coming back ... I used to have to travel into New York City on occasion once or twice a week, sometimes not at all for meetings or whatever. So I'm coming back and it was late. He wouldn't pick me up from the train. I was being punished. I had to walk home. It was raining. I didn't have an umbrella. Such a sob story. That night I'm like, "I'm never doing this again. I'm never doing this again." The car, the one car that we had because the second one had been repossessed, which is another story that he sent me out of the middle of the night to deal with the repo man, the car that we did have was in my name, I paid the bills, I paid for the gas, I paid for everything, and I wasn't allowed to use it though. He used it. If I needed to go somewhere, I had to use a taxi, borrow a car, use a bike, get the kids around another way.

So I said, "I'm never doing that again. I am taking the key." There was only one key. So I hid the key and he had hidden keys for me many, many times before, but that night, I hid the key and I'm like, "I'm using my car tomorrow. That's it. I'm drawing the line." So he gets up in the morning. I'm sitting there. It's 8:00 in the morning. I'm doing homework with my littlest one because, of course, I was working the night before and didn't get home until after bedtime and nothing had gotten done. So I'm trying to help him.

My husband comes down and wants to go get bagels. He's decided that's important he's going to get bagels. So he goes to get the key to the car and it's not there. So he knows immediately that I've taken it because he's done this to me so many times, and that this is the day. This is like the pimple popped this day. He ransacked the house. He'd done this before, thrown everything everywhere, dumped out my bag looking for the keys, stomped on my cellphone and broke it, took my wallet, breaking things in half.

So at one point I go, he has my wallet, I go to grab my wallet back, and now we're in this tug of war with the wallet and I came to my senses. It was like, "I'm engaging in this crazy lunatic's behavior." So I let go, which caused him to fall back, and I'm walking away. We were in the kitchen. I'm walking away. I think that just sent him over the edge that I had made him fall and he lost his temper and he came up from behind. I don't even see it happening because I'm walking away. He grabbed me by the throat and pinned me up against a wall, and I blacked out.

Our youngest son was standing right there. He was six at the time. He thought I was dead. I think my husband thought I was dead too for a second. When I came to, we were just eye-to-eye because he let go, and I came to first just face to face like that, and I just calmly walked to the phone and I started dialing for the police. He started crying and the tears. He's like, "Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't call," and he said, "You'll ruin everything," I'll ruin everything."




Warwick Fairfax:

You're probably thinking, "Everything's ruined already. What are you talking about?"




Victoria McCooey:

He can't take any responsibility, no accountability, I was about to ruin everything because I was calling the police.




Warwick Fairfax:

So that was the day that your life changed. So talk about how you were able to move on from that and care for other women because it felt like you were in this, I don't know what, poisonous soup or whatever, this prison with barbwire and guards and couldn't get out, and somehow maybe you dug a tunnel, somehow you got out, somehow you escaped.




Victoria McCooey:

It was so hard. You have that Stockholm syndrome thing. You feel responsible for the abuser and you feel guilty. I went through all of that that people go through. So many times I almost backed down, but thank goodness at that point by then I told my mother what was going on and she was very supportive. She came right away and stayed with me. I was able to get a restraining order while he was ... This is another typical, really highlights where his mind was ... When the police came, I didn't know, but they saw the hand print around my throat. So when they walked in, they were like, "What's going on?" The first thing out of his mouth was, "My wife is crazy. She's on medication."

So they separate us and I can see that he's being asked what happened. I guess they told him they saw the hand print and he said, "Yeah, well, I was pushing her because she was attacking me." He went to reenact it on the policeman and he put his hand on the policeman's throat and then he reached for his gun and he said, "Don't ever touch a police officer," and then he said again, "I'm just trying to show you what I did," and he did it again. They just put handcuffs on him and took him at that point.

So the one who was with me said, "You need to go right away and get a restraining order because they're going to let him right out because it's a first offense and he'll come right back here and he'll kill you. So go get your kids in school and then go get a restraining order." I remember even at that point I said, "I can't." They wanted me to sign the police report. I said, "I can't sign it. He'll kill me. He'll kill me if I do that." So it didn't matter. They had to make the arrest because they saw the evidence of domestic violence.

So he was arrested, but during his arraignment, the district attorney said, "How much money can he get his hands on?" I was like, "None. None," and they were like, "Okay." So they asked for a bail to be sent at $5,000, and he was so arrogant and unhinged to the judge. The judge raised his bail to 50,000.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's pretty stupid, I got to say.




Victoria McCooey:

Yeah. So I have such a debt of gratitude to this agency called the Coalition Against Domestic Violence here in New York. It's all over the country. It's called different things though, but here it's called the Coalition Against Domestic Violence. So when I went to that court house in that small town, they had an outpost there, and as soon as I said I wanted to get a restraining order against my husband, they were called up, they came swooping in and they guided me through the whole process. They told me things like, "You have to go get temporary custody of your children because as soon as he gets out, he's going to try to take them," all these, which is what I do now. I'm doing what they did for me for my clients, but they were so helpful.

So they guided me through the process. It was very long and very hard. Divorce is hard, but divorcing a narcissist is in a category all by itself. It was a long time ago so laws were different. People didn't know about this as much. He was able to manipulate the system so much more than somebody could do now, but it was a long hard battle. Our divorce wasn't final for six years.




Warwick Fairfax:

It took six years from that night when he could have killed you till the divorce.




Victoria McCooey:

I almost lost custody. I almost lost custody of my children.




Warwick Fairfax:

Because he was-




Victoria McCooey:

Because they said, "They're boys and they need their father."




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, not this kind of father. What kind of role model is this for ... The last role model you need for your boys.




Victoria McCooey:

Right, but on the outside, the community loved him. He was the soccer coach and the lacrosse coach and he did all this wonderful stuff, but it was all for his ego. He was like the athlete and everyone thought he was so terrific. So he was able to convince them that I was crazy, I was the problem, I was unhinged. At that point in my life, I had been compromised, and this is horrible. Part of this is that these women, typically women, are abused and they're compromised and they're at their lowest point and they are not presenting in a good way because they haven't had a chance to heal. This is when they have to persuade a court that they're the better parent.




Warwick Fairfax:

Right, and they don't have that capacity at that point. So how did you find a way to heal and use that to heal others because you had a lifetime of, well, in some ways abuse of damaged self-esteem? It's like, how do you grow a rainforest in a desert? It feels like impossible. It feels like it'll take hundreds of years of a positive climate change if that's possible. It felt like almost climbing Mount Everest to have a sense of self-esteem. If you don't have any sense of self-esteem yourself, how in the world can you have enough capacity to help anybody else? It's like when you're in a plane, you got to breathe oxygen before you can stick it on your kids. So how did you manage to come back and have enough self-esteem to care for others?




Victoria McCooey:

It took a really long time for me to heal because I didn't know about the resources. It was a different time. Things weren't available like they are today. I was just still trying to get through the day, struggling to raise these three kids with a person who's not co-parenting but counter-parenting, trying to sabotage everything I tried to do. The divorce took six years, but we were still in and out of court for another nine years after that because he was trying to change the child support commitment constantly or change custody constantly or I was having to go chase him down for child support constantly. So we were always in court. I was in court for 15 or 16 years nonstop. So I couldn't heal until really that was over.

Then I went on a journey, and then I really just decided that I wanted to do all the things that I had never had a chance to do before. My children were in a good place. He was out of our lives. I was remarried. I had a wonderful new husband and stepdaughters and everything was falling into place. I just started consuming so much information about transformation, about healing, about spiritual journeys.

I did it all. I did everything. I had a job at that point where I was commuting in and out of the city. So at one point, I actually moved out of our bedroom, my new husband's and my bedroom because I was up all night. I was listening to things, I was writing journals, I was reading, and I didn't want to keep him up anymore. So for two or three months, I just did anything I could get my hands on until I found the things that really worked. I crafted this process for me. It wasn't to start a business, it was doing it for me. I had this huge metamorphosis. I became a stronger, wiser, more capable, confident person. It didn't happen overnight. It took a long time.

That was when I started doing work for the Coalition Against Domestic Violence. So I wanted to give back. So I had been talking on stages for them, telling my story, showing teacher groups or PTA meet groups or whatever I was a victim of domestic violence, "It's not always who you think it's going to be. It could be anybody here," to open their minds to that, and that was great, but I told them I really want to be in the trenches. I want to help victims.

So there was this program where they trained people who had a social work background to go to the hospital when somebody presented with a domestic violence incident, and I begged them to let me do it and they said I didn't have the background, I would have to go get all this certification. So finally, I bugged them enough they let me do it for years. I bugged them. So I finally was able to go into this training and it was a year long training. So this was during my whole new transformational period.

I was allowed to finally go to the hospital to coach victims who presented from a domestic violence incident and help open their minds to how they might be able to leave or that they might not want to stay. Some of them didn't think they could leave. Most of them don't think they can leave. So telling them about resources available, but also changing their mindset.




Gary Schneeberger:

You have described in this conversation what it felt like, in arduous detail sometimes, what it felt like to be manipulated, controlled, the toll that took on you both as you were growing up and in your marriage. You've pivoted now. You've transformed to use your word where you are helping people who have experienced the same thing. We have heard you talk about what it felt like to be on the other side of that transformation. Talk a little bit about when you got that chance, when you counseled your first woman, when she got it, when she realized she could leave, she could survive if she did. How did that transform your heart? How did that feel when you received that gift?




Victoria McCooey:

The first time that happened and the first few times was in the hospital when I was doing this volunteer work, where I had people often see a light bulb go off in them, that there's somebody who understands. It's so specific, this abuse, and so insidious, like we said, that you can't really describe it. So for them to be able to hear from a person in the hospital that, "I know. I was on the receiving end of that. I get it. I know how you got here. I know what that feels like. I know you're ashamed and you don't need to be. It's not your fault," so the connection I was able to make was everything. It wasn't just some nurse or some person who didn't really ... I was a victim too, and they could really open up to me and talk to me and relax about telling me these specific things. They didn't feel judged. They didn't feel ashamed. I was able to be totally vulnerable, which feels good when you're opening yourself up so somebody else can heal.




Warwick Fairfax:

So as you were helping that first woman and women afterwards, did you feel that there was almost drops of healing in you that as you use your pain to help others? I sometimes use the phrase drops of grace. Did you feel that didn't make all the pain disappear, but it felt a little better that day?




Victoria McCooey:

Absolutely because when I start telling them what happened to me, they were like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that happened to you." I'm like, "I'm not." I'm not sorry at all because look at the gift it gave me. It gave me a purpose. It gave me a reason to be here. It gave me the ability to help on a level that almost nobody else can. How awesome for me? So during this, I would say year long process of me just holding up in that office sleeping, well, not sleeping, being up all night going to work every day, I was like, "Okay." I was on call because you could be on call whenever. I was on call all weekend, every weekend and some nights during the week even. So I'm in the hospital or reading or doing whatever nonstop and I'm going to this job that is not lighting me up anymore, my writing job. This is not for me anymore. So I had to figure out how to pivot, how to make a career out of doing what I was passionate about.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's what you're doing now with your coaching and Reclaim Your Power System. As the years have gone by, do you feel like you've been able to, I don't want to say rebuild your self-esteem because you probably never had it, it was eradicated from birth pretty much. There was no foundation, but do you feel like you've come to a point where you can say, "I am worthy. I'm not perfect because none of us are perfect. We have our flaws, but from my spiritual power, I believe everybody's a child of God and is worth loving depending on your religious and spiritual paradigm"? I think most would agree with that concept. Have you got to the point where you can say, "Vic McCooey is worthy, not perfect, but is worthy. I deserve to be loved and I'm a worthwhile human being"? Have you got to that point would you say?




Victoria McCooey:

If you ask my family, they will tell you I've gone to the other extreme. Yes, and it feels great. I have great boundaries in place, maybe sometimes to a fault, but the pendulum goes all the way to the other side before you can figure out where the middle is. I'm very confident. Even my husband, my new husband was one of the first to notice. He's like, "You're like a different person."

When I came out of that year long experience, he's like, "You hold yourself taller, straighter. You've always got this smile on your face. You're happy to be alive." Just like I came out of my shell. I just was able to feel really, really good that I was really contributing in such a worthwhile way. I felt so good about myself and I still do, and I'm not sorry about what happened in the least because I really see it as a gift.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's almost like who you were designed to be came out. I don't believe there's some grand plan that we should all suffer. One can debate about good versus evil and spiritual warfare and a lot of religions do, but you became the person you were always designed to be, which I think is a wonderful thing.




Victoria McCooey:

What a fun experience, this journey. I found the person ... Some people never find out who they're supposed to be. So I'm so thankful that I got here. However it took to get here, I got here and lucky me.




Warwick Fairfax:

Let me ask you one maybe final question. With your three boys, I'm guessing your husband may have grown up in some abusive background and maybe it went on the generations beforehand. We don't need to get into the details, but with your boys, you have a chance to change history, and I'm sure you think about that. "I want to raise my boys to be good husbands, partners, to be different," has to be on your mind. Do you feel like you're in a position where that cycle can be broken?




Victoria McCooey:

Absolutely. They're adults now. None of them are married yet, but they have had serious relationships, and yes, I'm very proud of the difference that this generation has made.




Warwick Fairfax:

That means a lot. I know, obviously, we grow extremely differently, but growing up in a very wealthy family business, power and money causes lots of dysfunctions, "Am I worth something or is it just the money and the dynasty and all that?" My kids are all adults too, 31 into 20s, and they're all hardworking, humble, contributors, have a faith, and they're not damaged by the whole money and various other things that I grew up with. They have no idea how blessed they are to have a mother like they have. She's not a saint, but close. She's so giving and kind. I won the lottery. They won the lottery having a mother like that. So I feel like in some cycles of dysfunction have been broken and they're not perfect, but I just take immense pleasure out of generations of dysfunction has been broken in a sense, and you've got to feel some of that with your boys. So anyway, that probably makes some degree of sense, I guess.




Victoria McCooey:

I am so blessed and now I have two daughters. So we're like a Brady Bunch family. So I got all those kids I always wanted.




Gary Schneeberger:

This is the time in the show where I customarily say something about the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt. I'm not going to say that this time. Here's why. About 40 minutes ago in this conversation, Victoria, you mentioned that you met your first husband, the narcissist, in an airport. I'm going to avoid the entire area of air travel-




Warwick Fairfax:

There you go.




Gary Schneeberger:

... out of respect for you and your truly moving story. We're just going to say we're getting to the point where we're going to wrap up this episode. Before we do that though, I would be extraordinarily remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to tell listeners who've heard you unpack this very moving and meaningful story, if I didn't give you the chance to tell them where they can find you online and how they can engage your services if they do indeed need to. How can they do that?




Victoria McCooey:

Yes, victoriamccooey.com is my website, and on that website, you can book a strategy session with me. There's also a free gift. So right on the homepage, you'll see, you can read a little bit about me, you can relive a little bit of that story. You can also download a free gift, a PDF about five things every woman needs to know in divorcing a narcissist. So if you're interested in working with me, I have several different coaching programs depending on what your needs are. So the only way really to figure out what is best for you and how we should work together is to book an initial strategy session with me. So this is a call where I will coach you on the call, but also, we'll figure out if we're a good fit and where in my programs you would fit best.




Gary Schneeberger:

Warwick, as always, the founder of this whole thing, you get the last question or two or however many you want.




Warwick Fairfax:

So Victoria, thank you again. It's an honor to hear your story. The question, believe it or not, we do often ask at the end is going to sound, unfortunately, too familiar with what you do, but there could well be people, there could well be women who today may feel like their worst day. They may feel like they're in the bottom of the pit, that there is no hope, they're worth nothing, it's all their fault, all of the crazy paradigms that you are all too familiar with. What would a word of hope be for a woman that's in that position today may feel about as bad as any day they can remember? What would a word of hope be for that woman?




Victoria McCooey:

This is a tough one. The trick is to, of course, reclaim your power, build back your self-esteem, but it's easier said than done. When you are in that place where the abuse is just coming at you and you're at your lowest point like that, it's about getting in your head, about putting up a shield even if you can imagine that there's a shield around you where it's really hard to heal when you're under attack. So if you can find a way to shut that out even temporarily so that you can start this healing process.

Yes, everybody gets very caught up in going into these Facebook groups or chats or about the abuse and the narcissism. That is going to validate you that, yes, that's a thing, but it's not going to heal you. Start consuming more positive content. Start consuming more positive, inspirational, aspirational things, motivational messaging so that you get the willpower and the ambition and the hope that you can get through this. So I think that's the biggest message I would have, to get out of the negative messaging and into more positive messaging.




Gary Schneeberger:

I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on an important subject has been spoken, and that last word was just spoken by our guest, Victoria McCooey.

Thank you, listener, for spending this time with us, and remember, we understand, you heard Warwick talk a little bit about his crucible, you heard Victoria really unpack her crucible and how she moved beyond it, we know it's tough, but we also know the truth that Victoria talked about. She's the third guest in a row who's used this word gift to talk about the most trying times she went through. If she can do that, if Warwick can do that, if other guests can do that, you can do that too because what happens is as you learn the lessons of your crucible and you apply them and you walk forward in them, the destination that it leads you to is the most rewarding of your life because that destination is a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond the Crucible. Visit our website, beyondthecrucible.com, to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start, our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

Dr. Erica Harris endured a cavalcade of crucibles – starting with being diagnosed with acute myeloid leukemia and given just two months to live after her body did not respond to chemotherapy treatments. But then, miraculously she believes, she went into remission in time to receive a bone-marrow transplant that put her on the road to recovery… only to find herself in the direst of straits again when her new immune system rejected her lungs and her life was hanging by a thread of hope.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.




Dr. Erica Harris:

There was a sense of urgency with the caller on the other end of the line, and it said, "Is this Erica Harris? Is this Erica Harris? You need to go to the nearest emergency room and avoid all public places." And I literally stood dumbfounded saying, "No, no, no. You've got the wrong person. I'm the poster child for health and wellness, and I literally just left your lab like 15 minutes ago. There's no way that those could be my results. You must have had me confused with somebody else," like literally dumbfounded. But devastatingly, those results were accurate. And soon after, I was told I was diagnosed with acute myeloid leukemia.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that was just the start of a cavalcade of crucibles for Dr. Erica Harris, who was given just two months to live after her body did not respond to chemotherapy treatments. But then miraculously, she believes, she went into remission in time to receive a bone marrow transplant that put her on the road to recovery only to find herself in the direst of straits again when her new immune system rejected her lungs and her life was hanging by a thread of hope.

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show. In this week's episode, Harris explains every harrowing detail of her years-long up-and-down medical crises, finally set at a more stable path when she received a double-lung transplant. Along that journey, she tells Warwick, she learned the important difference between toxic positivity and genuine positivity, and discovered that the key to her recovery to turning her tragedies into triumphs was a mindset shift.

"I have lived a million more lifetimes than I could have if I never had cancer," she says today. And now she shares the lessons her journey taught her as a speaker and coach who encourages others through her true wellness platform, Rise Today.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, Erica, thanks so much for being on our podcast. And just as I'm looking at some of the material that you've written about, your story is so inspiring, not just what happened, but what you took out of it and how you've risen again. I love the website and just your mission, Rise Today. It's so impactful. And for people who are watching this on YouTube, I love the background that you have, the pink daisies and the mural, and that is just so fun and hopeful and clearly intentional. It's a wonderful background you have.

So, obviously, we'll get to the crucible moment and moments. There was more than one, sadly. But you grew up from Vancouver, Canada, which is, you're talking off-air, is a magnificent part of the world, with Whistler where we've been skiing, and just it's so beautiful in British Columbia. But just tell us a bit about your background growing up and what was a young Erica like and what do you love to do, sort of hopes, dreams. Yeah. Yeah. Just tell us about... I don't know if it's okay to say who you were or who you were growing up and the before.




Dr. Erica Harris:

Yeah. I'll clarify a little bit. I do live in Vancouver now. I've lived here really for most of my adult life. I came out here to do my undergrad degree in exercise science. But rewind, as a small town girl, I grew up in Northern Ontario in a city called Sault Ste. Marie. And as they say, you can take the girl out of the Sault, but you cannot take the Sault out of the girl. And I am still so rooted in that little community, which is halfway across Canada from here.

I still have the same best friend that I've had for 35 years. We talk four times a day still today, I kid you not. And I love to take my kids home to the lake. It's where I get rooted and it's where I elevate myself again and find me, reconnect with myself. And I've just got such a community of support there, being a small town, and I really love going home sweet home. But yeah, that idea of Northern Ontario really, I feel, kind of defined a lot of my childhood, just the roots itself, right? Just the character from Northern Ontario itself, just the rugged nature, loving the outdoors. I grew up boating.

Loved school. I was really lucky going through school with a great group of friends, who I'm still friends with now. Just really lucky in my childhood, and loved to ski and loved to soak in all the great outdoors had to offer. Really, really blessed, and found a love of... In high school, I received the gym award graduating from high school and just really was fascinated by health and wellness and human performance.

And so, that's what I then pursued my education in and pursued a degree in exercise science and kinesiology, and then later pursued a degree in chiropractic and practiced as a sports chiropractor for years. I owned my own clinic, Peak Performance Chiropractic Health Centre, and loved it. Really loved working with professional athletes and weekend warriors and practiced what I preached by every single measure at the same time and was really truly climbing the ladder of life and loved life.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. It seemed like everything was going well. You, I guess, were married and had, well, two sons, maybe one just, I guess, from what I understand.




Dr. Erica Harris:

Yeah. I was still nursing my youngest son and very happily married. We hurdled everywhere as a family of four, and my love for health and wellness was practiced in our family as well. We hiked every mountain together with the little infant backpacks. And my kids' first foods were homemade steamed spinach and avocado. I passed along the love of what I practiced for my whole life, even with my family. And getting sick was never on the agenda. I saw myself as the poster child for health and wellness. I felt so strong. I felt truly invincible at the time. And especially being a young mom too, your concern is always for your children, and you never really take the time to slow down and look inwards.




Warwick Fairfax:

So let's talk about what happened, because you were, I think, from what I understand, relatively young, like 35 or thereabouts, two young kids. Life is going great. And then what happened that changed the course of your life?




Dr. Erica Harris:

Sure. Yeah. You know what? We were climbing the ladder. We had so many plans and hopes and dreams and you're just in the thick of it. I was planning for my son's fifth birthday party, my oldest. I had planned this little party for months, and we had planned a month-long family holiday to the lake. Just, I was literally packing for it. We were gearing up to leave for the next week. I was still nursing my youngest. My oldest was soon to be starting kindergarten. We just had so much on the horizon, and cancer doesn't care about any of it.

It takes no regard for all of your responsibilities or your goals or your dreams or any of it. And it was a morning just like any other. I had woken up with my kids. We had packed a picnic lunch. I planned a little outing to the Vancouver Aquarium. We planned this picnic lunch to do after at Stanley Park. And I had to do a very quick routine lab test before we went. And it was a routine lab just to check a simple hormone. So when I was pregnant with my firstborn son, I had been diagnosed with this very common thyroid issue that a lot of women face. And I would take since then just one little medication every day. It's called Synthroid. And I would go for these routine labs every now and then just to make sure that that hormone level was at a good range.

And this was just kind of par for the course. And I went for this lab and I went straight to the Aquarium. It must have taken me about 15 minutes to go from A to B. And as we arrive in the Aquarium, I have these two little sets of legs running up ahead, so excited to see all of their sea creature friends, and my phone rang. I was still tucking our passes back into my wallet, and the reception in the Aquarium is terrible. I nearly didn't answer the call. And that was the call that changed my whole world, where everything I knew was ripped out from under me in the matter of seconds and really never to return again.

And there was a sense of urgency with the caller on the other end of the line, and it said, "Is this Erica Harris? Is this Erica Harris? You need to go to the nearest emergency room and avoid all public places." And I literally stood dumbfounded saying, "No, no, no. You've got the wrong person. I'm the poster child for health and wellness, and I literally just left your lab like 15 minutes ago. There's no way that those could be my results. You must have had me confused with somebody else," like literally dumbfounded. But devastatingly, those results were accurate. And soon after, I was told I was diagnosed with acute myeloid leukemia.

So I had a blood cancer that stemmed deep in my deepest of cavities in my bone marrow. So basically, my bone marrow wasn't producing functional blood cells. Literally, everything just happened so fast with leukemia. It's interesting, because you don't produce functional blood cells, so you don't have enough red blood cells. You can't clot properly as you don't have platelets, and you're just an immune hazard. You don't have the ability to fight any colds or bugs because you don't have any white blood cells.

So right away, you have to be admitted for 24 hours a day, seven-days-a-week chemotherapy. And it happened so fast. I think a lot of cancer diagnoses face this wait period that must be really difficult, too, in a completely different way. But this was just so abrupt and I had to be admitted to hospital right away. And like I said, the world was just ripped out from under me and just trying to grasp, hold on to anything I could at that time.




Warwick Fairfax:

So you go to hospital, and what were those first days like? I mean, and sadly, it was almost like a long descent into a dark night that was to last probably years, it felt like. But you weren't to know that at the time. What was your first thoughts?




Dr. Erica Harris:

No, I had no clue. In fact, I was told I had an 80% chance of success with the first round of chemotherapy. And I think we do it as a survival mechanism, but I went on to autopilot, as I'm sure we all do, in this flight-or-fight scenario that our brains and our minds almost have to do that to protect ourselves, to get through those moments. It would be too overwhelming to digest it all in that time, if that makes sense. Obviously, we can't stay on that zone. But looking back on it... And you don't see it at the time, but I can totally tell you I was in that autopilot survival mode.

And so, when I was admitted to hospital, right away, to me and my perspective, it was just a blip on the path. I was going to be fine, like, "Come watch me on my exercise bike. What can I get all my visitors from my water fountain? Would you like ice or no ice?" I had 60 visitors come to visit me every single day. And then over time, all of the unimaginable indignities that were coming in tow that I kept just dismissing, "Oh, it's fine. Oh, it's fine. It's fine. Just a blip. Just a blip. I'm going to be just fine."

But over time at night, when no one was around, that's when I would start to weep the silent tears, and that's when I would really let myself feel it. But I really felt genuinely that that was wrong to let myself feel that. I wasn't being positive in those moments and, "Erica Jane, just be positive. Just know you're going to be fine and then you will be fine." I was actually even reading Lance Armstrong's book at the time. And I remember being really angry when I got to this part where he was chatting with his oncologist, and he said to his oncologist, "Look," he too wasn't having the best news up until this point.

And he challenged his oncologist saying, "Look, I've been positive. I've had the most positive mindset, and I'm still not getting the results I want." And the oncologist apparently kind of looked back to him, and I don't remember the exact words, but the basic inference was, "Lance, I've seen the most positive of positive people perish on this path, and the most melancholic people of melancholic people thrive." And I was really angry with that. I really challenged myself with, "What had I done so wrong to get into this position and to be here now? And if only I were positive, that should work. That should contribute to my success."

But it was over time that I learned very acutely that when we're really our most genuine and positive self, it only comes after being really real about the hardships and giving ourself that safe space to be really real about the hardships. And for me, it came in tow with a nanny that we had had to hire. This nanny had been sitting in the corner of my room. She brought my babies in to see me. And all of a sudden, I was just struck by the presence of this complete stranger in the corner of my room. This must have been about eight weeks in.

I was struck by the presence of this complete stranger in my room and having access to our family's most vulnerable and most intimate of moments. And I watched her leave with my children. And from my penthouse view above, I could see her load in my boys into my vehicle down below, 15 floors below. All of a sudden, my mind just literally raced and panicked, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, is she going to buckle their seat belts properly? Is she going to speed on her way home? Is she going to shoulder check when she changes lanes? Does she realize what precious cargo she has in that car?"

I wanted to be the one driving home with my babies. I wanted to be the one to make them a healthy meal or to tuck them in at night and to sing them their lullabies before bed. I just felt so trapped. I felt almost institutionalized in that moment against my will, if that makes sense. I was stuck. I couldn't go anywhere. I couldn't be that mom to them at the time. And I watched my vehicle drive out with my kids. And people assume I've had so much physical pain on my path, which I have not. But that day was, by far, the most physical pain I've had on this journey, and I turned around from my window and I wept. And I was all alone in my room and I wept and I wept and I wept, and I didn't stop for days on end.

In today's society, that's when it's a problem. And my medical team came racing in saying, "Oh my gosh." There was this woman in this Hawaiian floral print dress, and I didn't even know her background or her specialization, but she had a clipboard, and she was just like, "If you've been having thoughts," and I was like, "Who is she?" And she's like, "I hear you've been crying. Don't worry. I can prescribe you anything you want."

And for me, it was the first reality check that I was like, "No, no. I just need to let myself feel the hurt of this and all that cancer came to take away and literally rip away from me." I had to abruptly stop nursing my youngest. I had to miss my oldest son's fifth birthday party. I couldn't go to this kindergarten orientation. I had to let myself feel all of the grief and loss that cancer had come to take in rather than, "Oh, it's just a blip on the path. Come watch me on the exercise bike."

Frankly, somebody should have been coming to speak with me then. I talk a lot about toxic positivity versus genuine positivity, and only looking back on it can I see that that was really toxic positivity. So over the course of time, I've come to learn through Lance's book, when we're mistaking that genuine positivity for toxic positivity, that's when we can get into that cycle of perhaps not having the results that we're expecting, if that makes sense.




Warwick Fairfax:

Just to help listeners know what happened, I mean, getting diagnosed with leukemia is bad enough, but it's just there were several more beats to the story where it felt like things kept getting worse physically. So just tell our listeners what were some of the other things that happened just to give people the full picture.




Dr. Erica Harris:

Sure. So within the first few weeks, I think the first round of chemotherapy was a three-week process. They do another bone marrow biopsy after that, and I was told I had not responded to that round of chemotherapy. In fact, I only grew more leukemic cells. I think I was admitted to hospital with 27% leukemic cells. After the first round of chemotherapy, I then had 67% approximately. I was then told I would need salvage chemotherapy followed by a bone marrow transplant.

Now, remember, this was only three weeks after I was diagnosed, and I hadn't even complained of feeling sick or unwell before that three weeks. And now I'm hearing, "Okay, you need salvage chemotherapy." And I was like, "Well, what's salvage? What happens if that doesn't work?" And that needs to be renamed because it inherently denotes questions in your mind. And point-blank, they said, "This is the last course of treatment we have available to treat this. If you don't respond to this, this is the end of the line." And I couldn't compete with that. I had literally just been diagnosed three weeks before. I still saw myself as so physically well, if that makes sense, so much life to live.

I was not nearly done living, and how could you tell me this? And let alone then, now I need a bone marrow transplant, like, "Show me. Show me somebody who has gone through this and they're now thriving." Right? And my team was amazing. It's very rare to have salvage chemotherapy, because you have to be quite young and fit to receive it. But they rummaged through their records and they found this one incredible woman, Mary. Mary came in to visit me on a hard day. I had a septic infection. I was in septic shock, and she stood in my doorway. And I swear she looked like an angel. It just lit up behind her.

And she walked into my room and she put her hand on my leg, and she just said everything I needed to hear. She understood it in a way that nobody else had understood it. And when she was leaving my room that day, she was actually going down the street here in Vancouver to Women and Children's Hospital. She was off to meet her firstborn grandchild. And for me, instantly, I was like, "Okay. I love this. I'm going to be this fit little granny one day."

And not only did this inspirational role model give me my vision, but she just gave me so much hope. And I saw myself then as this fit little granny pushing my future grandbabies down the Ambleside seawall here in West Vancouver, and I still see that vision very acutely. I feel the wind in my hair. I can taste the saltwater. I can hear all the laughter around me, and it's just really a powerful vision that really gets me through hard days.




Warwick Fairfax:

But there were some more hard days. I think you got a stem cell transplant.




Dr. Erica Harris:

Yes. Sorry.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah.




Dr. Erica Harris:

Sorry.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah.




Dr. Erica Harris:

I did not respond to the salvage chemotherapy. Devastatingly, I was told I only grew sicker again. I think I then had 87% leukemic cells. I was really, really sick. And I was given a terminal prognosis because, again, that was the end of the line for treatment. I was withdrawn all further medical care, aside from palliative care, moving forward at that point. This was back in 2012, on July 31st. The world that I knew then just obviously collapsed in every way, shape, and form.

And I fought to go home. If I had two months to live, I had a lot of living to do. I certainly wasn't going to do it from a palliative floor. My first stop was to go to Fred Hutch, which is a leading leukemia institute in Seattle. All my eggs are in this basket, and devastatingly, they gave us the same prognosis. They said, "Erica, we've got some trials going on. You're not going to respond to them, but let us learn from you in the name of science." And I'm not sure if my choice would've been different not being a mom, but there was no way that I was going to get my kids down to Seattle and be a guinea pig in that time. Like I said, if I had two months to live, I wanted to maximize every single day.

And a big part of the story that I kind of overlooked was just literally the day before. This is just then the emotional roller coaster of the story. The day before I was given this terminal prognosis was the day that my team came running in after weeks of searching for a perfect donor match. They told me they finally found this perfect, 10-out-of-10 donor for my upcoming bone marrow transplant that I would desperately need. But devastatingly, as soon as I was told that I didn't respond to salvage chemotherapy and I wasn't in remission, "You're no longer eligible to serve as a recipient for this transplant."

So this gift of life that was just extended was brutally ripped away, literally 24 hours later. But this gift of hope that I had been given, for me, I held on to this. And for me, it was like a sign that I was given this information at a certain point for a certain reason, and just to hold on to this hope, because my goal at the time, in all honesty, wasn't to get into remission. I didn't even think that that was possible, given how sick I had become on this journey.

My goal was to fuel myself in every way, shape, and form to live another day, to convince somebody somewhere in the world to give me this transplant without being in remission. And so, my brother is a medical doctor. My brother-in-law at the time was a medical doctor. Everybody was rallying for this hospital here in Vancouver to do this transplant without me being in remission. And so, my goal in this time was only to stay healthy enough to convince somebody.

At the same time, I completely owned this fire-breathing dragon and the power of this dragon of cancer that had crept into my world and prepared for the worst. And I recorded the messages for my children. I made scrapbooks for them. We recorded songs together, all with tears streaming down my face. I was never ready to tell them about my prognosis. I knew when I felt it that I would be ready to talk to them, but they were so small, and I just never felt ready. But I felt it was really important to prepare myself.

A lot of people say, "Oh, Erica, you're so positive. You never owned what cancer could have done to you, and that was what led to your success." But I think it's almost the opposite, to be honest, because let's say I hadn't prepared for the worst. Right? Let's say I was just like, "I'm going to be fine. I'm going to be fine." And then my kids turned 35. Had I not been fine, they would've been like, "Gosh, mom had a terminal prognosis and she didn't write us a letter?"

But it's also interesting, because when we prepare for the worst, I assure you, when I was writing out those letters for grade seven graduation or whatever it may be that my kids would go through in their milestones, I wanted to be there. Right? And it made me rise to that even more in my efforts that I was doing to fuel my mind, my body, and my soul. And I became like this human filter for what would creep into my mind or my soul or my body in every single way. And I think owning that power is also equally really important in how we rise on the other side, the power of what is our antagonist, if that makes sense. Yeah.




Warwick Fairfax:

But it seems like, from what I understand, you did find that donor who'd be willing, somebody in Germany. So that was positive, and he had an interesting last name.




Dr. Erica Harris:

Yeah. I didn't know where he was from at the time. You're right. I didn't know where he was from at the time, but I was just holding on to this bit of hope. And miraculously, through doing all of the efforts that I did, we pursued any and everything in the natural healthcare realm. And miraculously, I achieved remission, a complete spontaneous remission, it's called in the medical world. I call it my miracle, because of holding on to hope.

And oddly enough, I've only come to meet him years later, this amazing donor who gave me all of this hope. And believe it or not, his last name is, I'm sure it's pronounced Hoppe in his home country of Germany, but it's hope in my world. It's H-O-P-P-E. But he is just my hope star. He's incredible. So he is this young mountaineering adventurer, and because of him, I was eligible to receive this lifesaving bone marrow transplant, which serves as like the, quote, unquote, "cure" to prevent against relapse from such an aggressive leukemia.

And he's this young, super healthy, fit gentleman. And because of him, my blood type changed from O- to A+, which is also crazy. Who even knew that that could happen? But I thought that that was a really good score on this test, and I was just so overjoyed. And instantly, from that day forth, I've lived my life incredibly differently. Hearing the words "you have two months to live" has been the greatest gift, despite all the turmoil that still happened even after that, because you really do learn to be ever so present and maximized today in every way.




Warwick Fairfax:

Wow. And I want to get to some of those lessons, but there are, I guess, a couple more beats, one obviously involving your lungs and then marriage after that. So talk about, just like things seem to be getting positive, and then wait, stop, and then something else happens. So tell us about the whole issue with the lungs.




Dr. Erica Harris:

Yeah, I call it the rise and fall. It just seemed like I kept rising and falling. And every time I'd come to the surface for another gulp of air, I felt like I was just violently pulled back down again. And so, yeah, you're right. After this bone marrow transplant, I had a few bumps in the road, but generally I grew strong quite quickly. I was on my skis by the end of that year again, skiing down the local mountains here. That was one of my goals.

I got back to hiking Grouse Grind, which is a pretty strenuous hike here. I was then teaching my kids how to ski, which is, you have to be really physically fit to be teaching kiddos how to ski the mountains here. But I really was. But then on my hikes, people started to pass me, Warwick, and they were like, "Oh, thanks for letting me pass." And I was like, "I am not trying to let you pass." I couldn't seem to catch my breath, and I couldn't seem to talk in the same capacity I'd always done so before. I seemed to be losing my breath.

And so, I mentioned it to my physicians, but at first, they were like, "Erica, you're just so..." I'm so much more active after transplant, and I was just so grateful to be alive. I didn't care if I was hiking in the hills anymore. And so, I would walk the seawall here all the time, and I was just so happy to walk the seawall. But then that same shortness of breath very quickly caught up with me on the seawall and in the flats, and then even caught up with me walking across my kitchen. And they learned a little bit too late that my new, hearty immune system kind of woke up, looked around, and decided it didn't recognize my own lungs, and embarked on this fierce process of attack through rejection and literally obliterated my lungs.

It's called a process of bronchiolitis obliterans. I fell to 80 pounds. I was crazy sick, on full-time oxygen. And gosh, those days were brutally hard. So in contrast to hearing the words "you have leukemia" and everything happening so fast, now I have this decline in my lungs. All the tools that I had previously used to miraculously survive cancer, there's nothing I could do now to gain control of this process happening within, where I kind of described it to my kids like I've got these two friends at the playground, my body and my donor's body, and they're not getting along. And there were no tricks that I could come up with to get these two to get along.

And it was really, really a defeating process, let alone to be declining quickly and on this everyday gradual progression. I was then told that my only hope of survival would be a double-lung transplant, which, for me, sounded brutal. Brutal. Like for something great to happen to me, something terrible has to happen to someone else. How do you come to grapple with that? That was just playing on my mind and all my emotions for the longest time, and I lost so much function. I ended up developing these steroid-related cataracts. I couldn't see, so I couldn't even drive. I couldn't watch a movie to take my mind off things. I couldn't read.

Everyone's just saying, "Oh, just rest." But there's only so much rest you can do. Those days were brutally, brutally hard to lose all of my independence. And then actually, on my worst day, what was once my worst day, July 31st, 2012, when I was told I had two months to live, fast-forward three years, July 31st, 2015, that was the day I had the call saying new lungs were waiting for me. And I was gifted new lungs the very next day on August 1st and the gift of breath with the thanks to a family, the family of another who bestowed the most incredible of incredible gifts.

And this family is an incredible family. I've only recently met them, and I am so honored to carry the lungs that I have, and I'm just the luckiest girl ever. More bumps in the road happened and I ended up getting a virus that I had never been exposed to before with these new lungs. I spent almost a year in the hospital, to be honest, trying to fight this virus. I grew resistant to all forms of treatment. I was called the Hail Mary of the hospital all over again.

I would literally get out of the hospital every day to pick up my kids from school. I'd drive from Vancouver back over to the North Shore, pick up my kids from school, get groceries, make a family meal, take them to activities, and tuck them into bed before I'd race back to the hospital. And I'm sure a million people could have done that, but I needed to do it. I needed to keep my fierce sense of purpose in this world. I couldn't give that up. And so, I had to advocate for myself at 7:00 AM if my nurses were late hanging my medications. I was like, "I've got to go. I've got to be out of here at 2:30. You've got to get these meds up. I've got to get out of here." Yeah. It was a really hard year.

And then miraculously, I had another miracle in the spring of 2017 on Easter weekend, literally, where I just started to develop my own immunoglobulins to this darn bug, which is a feat of feats for a girl who doesn't grow her own immunoglobulins at all after this bone marrow transplant. I'd go for transfusions every month where I borrow immunoglobulins that other people produce to keep me strong from colds and bugs. And here I am now developing my own immunoglobulins to this bug. It was a complete miracle in itself.

And then I grew strong. And six weeks after I was finally out of hospital, my husband chose to divorce. And this family unit of four that I had just cherished, again, the world that I knew was being ripped away from under my feet. And I had to face a move very quickly thereafter. I had to adjust to life as a single mom, and I really had to reinvent myself from that point forth. I was standing there and I just literally had to dust the dust off and figure out how I was going to reorientate the compass and move forward.

And my path ahead really all came from this point of service. I had always been asked, "Erica, what did you do on your path? How did you maintain your mental health? How did you survive all that you've survived? How did you do this?" I had so many questions. I had so many people from the hospital and other avenues wanting me to speak for their organizations.

And so, I started speaking, I started coaching, I started mentoring, and I started doing this podcast, the Rise Today Inspirational Podcast, just like you do, to share these stories of hardship and to really open up the conversation of hardship, but to also propel tools of resilience and resolve and fortitude to help others stay the course and to hold on to hope. And that's why I'm here. I try to serve as a beacon of hope for others who are hearing the most dire of dire of words, just to hold on and to fight in ways that you can and that you feel most proactive about.




Gary Schneeberger:

And one of the things that you probably can't know is what you've just described is something that is a critical aspect of what Beyond the Crucible, what Warwick created, what it stands for. Warwick calls it a life of significance, and he describes it as a life lived on purpose, dedicated to serving others, and that it's impossible, really, to have a life that's, quote, unquote, "successful," truly, without doing that. So, again, I'm going to play the role of the guy who says, "Are you paying attention, listener? Or are you hearing it?"

Warwick Fairfax, his crucible story, you know well, takeover of the family media dynasty, succeeds for a bit, ultimately fails, 150 years of family history washed away, at least in terms of what's owned, at a $2.25 billion, with a B, price tag. Then you hear Dr. Erica Harris talking about everything that she's been through. Completely different than what Warwick has been through, but listen to the emotions, and not just the emotions of what they felt when they went through it, but where they ended up.

You just said, Erica, that the only thing that helped you going through what you went through when you finally got through what seemed like maybe the last part of that, and it's never really the last part, is that you dedicated yourself to service. You're living right now that life of significance. And from where I sit, in the cohost chair, love hearing those stories. And Warwick, I'm sure that means everything to you as well, hearing someone, who you did not know before this conversation, living the same sort of story that you talk to listeners about all the time.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, very well said, Gary. I mean, to me, part of the challenge of life is try to make meaning and purpose out of tragedy, out of pain. We don't necessarily know why it happens, what's the reason, but I think a lot of folks we've had on the podcast, myself included, have tried to use what we've been through to serve others, to help others in some fashion.

It doesn't make maybe the physical or emotional pain all go away, but it, a bit like drops of grace, I think, really definitely helps. I want to focus, one of the other things that you've said is, "I choose to focus on the blessings." Now, listeners hearing about leukemia, lung transplants, divorce, and I think you said, sadly, it's more common than people think. I think you've mentioned previously maybe 50% of marriages don't survive cancer, so it's, yes, all too common.




Dr. Erica Harris:

I've said this in my TED Talk, and thank you for bringing this up. It's a really important stat to share, because they don't tell you this when you're holding your husband's hand facing your diagnosis. And you're right. 50% of marriages don't survive a cancer diagnosis. They don't tell you this. There need to be more resources in tow to help these young couples and young families. There are no resources for my children. Contrast that to a child who has cancer. There are resources for the parents. There are resources for the siblings, but there are none when it's a young parent who is ill.

And so, that's a really important topic that you just brought up. But when you're a woman facing a cancer diagnosis compared to a man facing a similar diagnosis, with a similar prognosis, you actually have a six times greater chance of divorce. And they don't talk about it. There's no discussion on preserving... My kids deserved our family having a better chance. Of course. My husband at the time went through his own journey. He almost watched me die over and over and over and over and over again. He would've had to pull back emotionally. Right?

And there are hardships going through that. I'm not saying I was perfect going through cancer either. You don't even have time to focus on your marriage. You're still prioritizing the children. When one person is living at the hospital, you're pulled in so many different directions. And these families, I don't know, for any of your listeners, if you know any young parents facing health issues, support those families.

I just wanted somebody at the soccer pitch to cheer on my youngest and to be that pseudo-mom for a day. I needed somebody to bake a birthday cake. I needed the basic things that you don't even think about. When you take a young mom out of the house, you need a lot of resources in place to help those young children, and those families need so much more support.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. It's the unseen challenges. The seen is the physical. And hospitals and healthcare providers, that's what they focus on, as they should. But it's the unseen, marriages and kids and relationships, that... You're right. We need to do a better job of caring for that. But I want to shift to... It'd be hard for a lot of people to believe there could be blessings from what you went through.

I think you've said also that you felt like you started as a caterpillar and became a butterfly, as if somehow this cancer and this pain was maybe part of the process of taking you from a caterpillar to a butterfly, which, if that's what you meant, most people would say, "That makes no sense. How could there be any beauty in cancer? It's evil. It's awful. How could there be a blessing? How could somehow this transform you from a caterpillar to a butterfly?" Talk a bit about blessing and that whole caterpillar-to-butterfly metamorphosis.




Dr. Erica Harris:

Great question. It's so true. When you face your own mortality at such a young age, you realize the fragility of life that we often otherwise take for granted. Actually, I'll take it back a second. When I was hearing the words of my diagnosis, I was sitting in this doctor's office building downtown Vancouver, and I heard the words, "You have acute myeloid leukemia." And I saw my physician try to conceal a tear in her eye, because I looked so well. I just looked so well. And my husband, as any caring husband would do, started off on this rampage of questions. Right?

And from that point forth, I heard the words in the room, but it was like this muddled, I don't know, this muddled video playing in the background almost. And I turned my gaze out the window and, as per this point that you were just talking about, I saw this young woman. She looked like she was walking home from work after a day in the office. She had white sneakers on, professional attire on underneath. She had a backpack on. And her hair literally bounced with every step she took. She said hello to everybody she passed by. She just happily greeted everybody.

It was a walk I too had done many times before with that same beat in my step and the same energy and the same vim and vigor to see people walking by. And I pictured her walking home from work to going home to make her family a meal, and it was in that moment that I had never realized before how lucky I was just to get to go home and make a family dinner. And all I wanted to do in that moment was to go home and make a simple family dinner, the task that we do every day, the simple mundane. All I wanted to do was to get to do the everyday mundane that I had always taken for granted.

My focus was always on the big adventures. What was the family trip that was going to be next? What was this? Often overlooking the beauty that lies in the simple mundane. All I wanted to do was make a family dinner without a care in the world. And cancer brought me that gift of appreciating the simple mundane, and there's so much beautifulness that unfolds from that. I have a calm in my heart that I never otherwise had before. Before, I lived on autopilot, "What's coming next? Where am I going?" I was so, "Go, go, go, go, go, go, go."

I never paused and took the time to really be appreciative of the moment, because I was always thinking ahead to what was coming next. I always say now that I have lived a million more lives each and every day than I ever could have before cancer. I've almost been gifted 11 bonus years. On July 31st, it'll be 11 from the time that I heard I had two months to live, and I'm just the luckiest girl in the world. I could have lived till I was 120 before, but I've already outlived that life that I could have lived before now.




Warwick Fairfax:

Life is in the little things. The blessing is in the day-to-day, as you say, cooking a meal, walking in nature, being with your kids at dance recitals or on the soccer pitch.




Dr. Erica Harris:

You've got it.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's part of the tapestry of life, right?




Dr. Erica Harris:

That's the secret of happiness right there, the everyday, simple mundane.




Warwick Fairfax:

There are so many tools you talk about. One of the biggest things I think is just that whole mindset, mindset and mindfulness. But why is mindset so important as you go through challenges in life?




Dr. Erica Harris:

Gosh, that's how you choose to react. Right? What we face, it's not a choice. It wasn't something I did wrong that brought on cancer. There are so many adversities that we face that are outside of our control. I couldn't impact my husband's decision. I knew things were hard on our marriage, but I always assumed once I was well and out of hospital, we would have time to fix that. So that was probably the hardest thing for me, was that we didn't have that time.

But we can't choose what happens to us, and there's no fault in the adversities we face. But unless we choose to assign meaning to it, we lack that purpose, and then we focus. We choose our focus to focus on the hardships. And Tony Robbins often talks about what we choose to focus on, we give meaning to. It is a choice. If I choose to focus on all the hardships I've been through, that is where my mind goes. That's what I become. Right?

But I choose to focus on living life to the fullest. I choose to defy everything that's on paper in the hospital about me, and I choose to live life, every bit that I can, when I'm outside of those walls. There's nothing more that I love more than when I walk in to meet a new doctor, and they're like, "Wow, you look nothing like what I expected you to look like from what's in here." And that's the choice piece. Right? That's the mindfulness piece. We can all choose how we rise to our adversities.




Warwick Fairfax:

So well said. And part of that choice, as you talk about, is using what you've been through to live a life of service. And I so love that concept of just helping other people that may face illness or may face challenge and just giving them hope. Part of being healthy, I think, psychologically is making meaning and purpose out of what you've been through and using it in a way to serve others. And so, that's obviously a clear part of that. Yeah.




Dr. Erica Harris:

Yeah. I'm so passionate about that because, like I said, even when I had 60 people come to see me every single day, I felt so incredibly alone, because they all come in. Right? They are dressed to go to the beach after. They are dressed to go to work, and you are the one that is stuck in there. They get to go home and have that family dinner at their house. Right? You're the one that's stuck in there, left alone, and you can feel so incredibly alone. And unless you're connecting with other people, you can also feel really guilty about the feelings that you're experiencing.

And so, I try to create this safe space by being really real about the ups and downs that I still face now today through my social media and through my coaching and through speaking efforts and through my podcast and through everything that I still do today. I feel so compelled to pay forward all that I've been gifted. Look, this complete stranger rose to help from halfway around the world in my time of need. Who does that? I breathe through the lungs of another. I have the bone marrow of another flowing through all parts of me. I am seriously the luckiest girl ever. It's been a team to get me here. And I'm so passionate about paying all of that forward and helping other people feel less alone on their journey and holding on to hope.




Gary Schneeberger:

That sound you heard was the captain turning on the fasten seat belt sign, indicating that it's time to begin our descent to land the plane. We're not there yet. Before we get there, I do want to give you the chance, Erica, to talk about Rise Today. And I want to read the mission statement that you have for Rise Today, is, "To open up the conversation about hardship and to equip you with tools to stay the course, to take back the power from adversity, and to thrive like never before." You described all of that in this conversation we've had. Talk a little bit about... I'd be remiss if I didn't give you the chance to let listeners know how they can find out more about Rise Today and about the services you offer.




Dr. Erica Harris:

Sure. I always say we are not defined by how hard we fall, but rather by how high we choose to bounce on the rebound. We're also not defined by how many times we fall. I've fallen a lot, but rather by how many times we choose to rise. And I encourage your audience to choose to rise and choose to do so again and again and again.

And at Rise Today, we are a community of support for others who are navigating these hard days. We have coaching courses available, a speaking platform available to inspire your audience at your next event. We've got a podcast that a lot of people appreciate, and you can find more at risetoday.com. Instagram is probably my most active platform, 60daystolive2012. But other formats are Dr. Erica Harris for LinkedIn, Facebook. You can find me anywhere online. Yeah. Search Dr. Erica Harris and risetoday.com, and I will be there.




Gary Schneeberger:

Awesome. Warwick, as always, it's the founder and host's prerogative to ask the last question, or two if you want. Take it away.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, thank you, Erica. It's just a pleasure and a joy to have you, and what you've been through is so amazing. But as amazing as that's been, what's more amazing is just how you've approached it, not stuffing emotions, but yet seeing blessing in the lessons, using it to pay it forward and serve others. That's what's really truly remarkable.

There may be a listener today, maybe today is their worst day. Maybe they're in the bottom of the pit. Maybe they're in hospital or some other kind of challenge, and they may not see really any glimmer of hope. What's maybe a word of hope that you would offer that person? Because I realize hope doesn't necessarily mean, "Oh, things will be fine." Right? But I mean, I don't know if the word is realistic, but what's a word of hope for maybe a listener who's listening today that today may feel like their worst day?




Dr. Erica Harris:

Break it down. Take the focus off the long term and bring it right here to today. Fuel yourself in every way that helps you maximize this moment right here and right now. Whatever is going to bring you the most joy right now, do that. I feel by taking my focus off cancer and by living life and by fueling myself in every way I could, I've extended those two months into 11 years. I don't know what happens tomorrow, but by maximizing today, I've sure had a great ride in between.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the last words have been spoken on the subject, and right there, listener, you heard Dr. Erica Harris speak the last word of our discussion on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. So all I'll say is this: Until the next time we're together, listeners, do remember, and you've heard it here in great detail, with great emotion, and with great hope, that we understand that your crucible experiences are hard. Erica's crucible experiences were hard. Warwick's were hard. Mine were hard.

But we also know this, that if you learn the lessons from those crucibles, if you dig in, you take that one small step, as Warwick calls it, you take those little mindset shifts that Erica talked about, if you do those things and you apply them and you compile the lessons from your crucible experiences, you can lead the best life imaginable. It's not the end of your life. It's not the end of your story to go through a crucible. It can be the beginning of a new story that will lead to the greatest, greatest destination of your life, and that's this, a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond the Crucible. Visit our website, beyondthecrucible.com, to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start? Our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

Using our worst days to help others have their best days. That’s the undergirding philosophy, the bedrock exhortation, of Beyond the Crucible. And we explore it on this week’s episode in detail so that you can turn your own trials into triumphs. We’ve discovered and keep discovering with each new guest we interview that while crucible experiences vary greatly in their circumstances, they come with many similar emotions, whether it’s a business crucible or a physical crucible, an emotional crucible or a life crucible — or even the quiet crucible marked by feeling stuck and wondering “Is This All There is?” In this episode, we explore the 3 important truths no matter the crucible. 

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. When something happens to you, whether it's setback, failure, physical, emotional, crucible, whatever it is, you can be angry and bitter and say, "This was unfair. I was an idiot. I'm a terrible person. What they did to me was so unfair," and just be wrapped in a cauldron of bitterness and anger, as we often say on Beyond the Crucible, it's like drinking poison. It just erodes your soul or you can say what happened to me, whether it's a physical emotional crucible, it wasn't fair, it wasn't right. What I did was wrong, but that's happened and there can be life altering circumstances and consequences, but how do I move forward? I think the key for many, if not, all of our guests, is just that phrase that you said so well, that it didn't happen to them, it happened for them, is how can I use this crucible that happened to me to help others?




Gary Schneeberger:

Using our worst days to help others, to have their best days? That's the undergirding philosophy, the bedrock exhortation of Beyond the Crucible and we explore it on this week's episode in detail, that you can apply to turn your own trials into trials. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Warwick and I take a tour of what we've learned ground also covered in the new blog at beyondthecrucible.com, three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us. We've discovered and keep discovering with each new guest we interview that while crucible experiences vary greatly in their circumstances, they come with many similar emotions, whether it's a business crucible or a physical crucible, an emotional crucible or a life crucible, or even the quiet crucible marked by feeling stuck and wondering, is this all there is?

And those three important truths that help you navigate your way up from and out of the pit, realizing that mindset is everything, not going it alone and taking the first right step, then the next right step. Putting those truths together are the key to being able to consider your crucible not as something that happened to you but as something that happened for you. The subject that we're talking about this week listeners, as we do from time to time, once a month, about the current blog at beyondthecrucible.com, and that blog is Three Critical Lessons All Five Crucible Types Can Teach Us. So we've got kind of three young at front side and a number and five on the backside and a number. The idea there is there are lessons that we've learned in doing this show that hold true across what we've identified in doing this show five crucible experience types.

So what we've discovered, and I'll start here with you Warwick, the fascinating thing for me in co-hosting this show with you is when this first hit me, and I don't even remember what guest it was, but there's your story of having failed in the takeover ultimately after it was successful of the family media company in 1990 at a cost of $2.25 billion, that's your crucible moment. And that ... as you've said many times, you're kind of a support group of one there, right? I mean, there's not a lot of people who've been through that. Yet, there was a guest we had and the guest said something that sounded just like something that you've said about how you had to bounce back, how you had to rediscover your identity, how you had to find your purpose and your significance.

In that moment, I as the co-host said, "Hey, listener, did you hear that? Warwick's story and our guest's story are completely different in circumstance, but listen to the emotion behind them." That really has proven true, hasn't it, as we've done guest after guest crucible after crucible, those emotions are remarkably similar, aren't they?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's very true, Gary. There's the sense of loss, whether it's physical or some other crucible, which we'll get into. The sense that who I am now is fundamentally different. The thing about crucibles, as we discovered from our survey when ... as you know, we surveyed 11,000 plus people and 72% of them said that they had an experience that was so traumatic that it fundamentally altered the course of their life. So when you have that life altering crucible, there's the before the crucible and the after. The commonalities are themes such as choice, which you talk about a lot. You can't always choose what happened to you. Sometimes what happened to you has irreversible consequences. Often in the case of a physical crucible, but you have a choice.

Are you going to let it define you as we say? Are you going to let your worst day define you, this horrendous thing that happened to you or mistake you made or are you going to somehow turn that pain, that setback for good in a way that helps others? So that sense of choice. Another thing we talk a lot about is a sense of identity. Some folks we've had on there were very defined as we'll talk more about by their profession and who they were. Then, when that changes, who am I if I'm not that former life, that former person. So it really, where's my identity? So that sense of emotion, identity, choice about not letting your crucible define you. Those are common across every crucible, every background, nationality, gender, race, circumstance.

That's the amazing thing we've discovered is there are certain emotions, choice, identity, it's true for every guest we've had. Those have all been issues.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right, and it's truly been a discovery, right? When we started doing this thing 166 episodes ago, we didn't know. I mean, we're talking about business crucibles and you had a failure and a setback and that doesn't define you. As we talked to more guests and we heard more stories, we broadened the tent under which people can come. It's not ... we have discovered that it was truly episode by episode, a discovery process of learning that even when the circumstances are different, the emotions are the same.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, it's just amazing, the commonalities, as you said before, I can feel like I'm in a self-help group of one. I mean, "Hey, I've lost two billion dollars in 150 year old family business. Anybody else? Anybody else want to put their hand up?" It's like-




Gary Schneeberger:

Crickets. It's crickets.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I can feel like, well, nobody can relate to what I went through. Truth be told, I've never really met anybody that I feel like, "Oh, you went through what I went through." I mean, maybe there are some people in family businesses, maybe a little bit the same, but I've never really met that person. Yet in chatting with the folks we have on Beyond the Crucible, there is something about the commonality of tragedy, just the sheer factor of being human identity, loss, failure, setback. How do I overcome that? That's part of what it is to be human. It just shows that we all have differences, but there's so much that unites us. There's so much that we have in common. So when you feel like they felt shame like I did, they had identity issues like I did, they had days in which they struggled to get out of bed.

Maybe they did eventually, but they had days when they were just so angry at themselves, so disappointed in themselves. It's remarkable how those emotions are pretty much identical, even though the circumstances are different. I mean it never ceases to amaze me.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right, and from what you just said, so from those emotional experiences that folks have in going through a crucible experience as they're coming out of a crucible experience, that bridges to what we're talking about in this blog, three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us. It's interesting to me, Warwick, I came upon in this blog that I wrote at beyondthecrucible.com, I came upon this idea that there are five crucible types because I went through all the guests and sort of said, "Okay, their story was this. Their story was that." I didn't have a preconceived notion of that. What was interesting about how this whole thing came to be is that a member of the team who's been with us a little less time than certainly than you did, since you founded it, and even me, been around about five years, had this idea of unpacking some of the crucible types that people go through.

When I began to do that, that's when I found ... what resonated with me as a more of a long-termer was what we've been talking about so far. People say the same ... I mean, if I say anything on this show a lot, it's "Did you hear that listener? Their emotions are the same." So it was a marriage of sort of a new perspective from the team and an older perspective from me, which is where this blog comes from. I had no preconceived notion when I went into this, how many ... we've never done this before. How many crucible types are there? I identified in going through the list of every guest that there are five types of crucibles that we have tended to focus on.

So let's run through those briefly because ... and listener, just a word of note here, we're not going to dive deeply into every ... we'll give examples of folks who fall into these categories, but we're not going to dive deeply into their stories because the purpose of what we do here isn't to wallow in the downbeat, isn't to stay in the pit. These are the crucibles that led people to the pit. What we talk about is how you get out of it, and that's going to be the three critical lessons these five types teach us. It's important to understand, especially for Beyond the Crucible, which started its lifecycle as crucible leadership. That shifted in part because we realized they weren't all business crucibles. And that's our first type of the five crucibles was business crucibles.

That grew out of, I think, Warwick, your experience. Then also, this idea that ... as you wrote a book on leadership, that perhaps focusing on leadership crucibles was going to be what we were going to do. We've discovered somewhat quickly as we move through it that business crucibles, while important are not all that we do, but business crucibles, those are those crucibles like yours, like a gentleman like Hank McLarty who we talked to, who was a hotshot financial planner. He believed in his own press. He said he drank the Hank Kool-Aid. I'll never forget that. Then, he sort of took a fall where he lost his job and he ended up in a hotel for an extended period of time with his two sons needing to live off of the free breakfasts in the hotel because that's how far he had sunk into the pit.

So those business crucibles, still important to Beyond the Crucible, not our sole focus anymore, but we still have them, and they're still very, very common among people who are listening to this show, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

With the business crucible, that sense of identity is often the searing tip of the spear, if you will, of the pain. Who am I if I'm not Hank McLarty, A-listed, successful finance guy? It just strikes at the core of who you are, because in the business world, as you are successful, you begin to believe you're on press. "Hey, I'm this hotshot executive and I can do no wrong." And everybody says, "Wow, I saw you on the front cover of Business Week and saw you on CNBC. Man, you're just incredible. You're amazing." You think, "Yeah, I kind of am."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's hard to understand praise, and the dangerous thing is you believe that, and then, your whole identity gets wrapped up in "Hey, look at me. I'm COO. I'm CEO, I'm VP." And eventually, that's going to end, either ... not everybody has to resign, but eventually you might retire, maybe your company is bought out, they're bringing new folks. One of these days you will leave that job.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's a 100% certain, that you'll be the top dog and then you're not going to be. And pretty much everybody has gone through that. You go to your country club, if you're COO or CEO, that's kind of what you do and playing with your golfing buddies and it's like, you're not the top dog anymore. It's like, "Huh, you feel bad about yourself because I'm not who I was. I'm just a regular Joe, huh." So that sense of identity, that sense of shame, if you will, it's extremely common and it is pretty dangerous to have your identity wrapped up in who you are and being the CEO or whatever in a business organization. For most people, that's normal operating procedure. It's really hard to withstand the temptation or the siren call of success. So yeah, it's a different kind of crucible but yeah, there's the financial loss, obviously, but the identity is often ... it's often harder than the actual financial loss, which can happen in business crucibles.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, and that's a good segue into the second kind of crucible that we've identified in this blog because there's an identity factor to the physical crucible that we've talked to many guests about, and those are individuals, I think of one of the first guests we talked to David Charbonnet, the Navy SEAL, who was injured in a training accident and became a paraplegic and ended his Navy SEAL career, that was his identity, that's who he was going to be. We discovered that even if your identity is not wrapped up in being an athlete ... and we have a guest coming up that we're going to talk to Janine Shepherd who went through that she was a competitive Olympic level cross-country skier for your home nation of Australia, terrible accident.

That those dreams never came through, but other dreams came through, and you'll hear more about that listener in a full show. Again, her identity a little bit wrapped up in being that athlete, and she had to learn that wasn't really at all what her identity was. There was a whole different identity for her, and she had to pursue that. So both business crucibles and these physical crucibles have at some part of their root, this idea of identity, but it's different with physical crucibles because it's an identity that ... your identity as the fifth generation heir to the family media business is unique. Being a quote-unquote able-bodied healthy, whatever that looks like for you, person, and to have that taken away through accident, trauma, injury, illness, that can really make you ... I mean, in some ways, worse than being an audience of one.

You're an audience of a lot of people who have gone through this and it's hard to know how to move next. So what did those from physical crucibles, what's your reactions ... I mean, your remembrances of the guests we've talked to who've been through physical crucibles?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I mean, so well said. So true, I mean, David Charbonnet was one of our early guests, and he and his dad were both Navy SEALs and David Charbonnet was injured, became a paraplegic in a training accident in Southern California. Understandably, his identity was all wrapped up in being a Navy SEAL, and he literally said, "Who am I? If I'm not a Navy SEAL? This is what I was born to do." His dad said, "My son is as good a Navy SEAL as is out there." And one Navy SEAL doesn't say that about another, even if it's your son, unless you feel like it's true. You just don't do things like that. I think of Michelle Quay, who was injured at about 10 years old, and her native Taiwan now, lives in California, she never grew beyond what she was at that age.

So she has to use the sort of walking sticks. When you go to the grocery store. She can't reach the top shelf. She has to ask somebody for help or maybe knock it over with one stick and hopefully catch it with the other hand. I mean, most of us don't think of going to the grocery store as this massive ordeal, which we feel embarrassment almost. She hasn't used the word shame, but just certainly embarrassment, feeling awkward, feeling like I've got to ask somebody for help for something that's so simple for 90% of people. So yeah, that sense of identity and the things that were so simple are now so hard, and having to come to terms with that and not be angry and bitter, that is not easy.




Gary Schneeberger:

No, and one of the things ... and it just popped in my head, we didn't talk about this beforehand, that's why I love these episodes because things just pop in our heads as we're talking, but one of the things, if you go back and listen to or even watch ... especially watch on YouTube, those shows involving physical crucibles, I think there's a higher percentage of guests there who watch their faces, listen to their voices. I think of Michelle when I say this, there's joy all over them. They've been through some of the most traumatic things people can go through in terms of limitations on their bodies, on their minds, on their movements, and yet there's laughter and there's joy, and there's complete comfort in that they have found their identity on the other side of that pit, getting out of that pit, they found their identity.

I think if we did the research on it, we would find physical crucible guests are the ones who are ... when they talk about what it's like on the other side of that crucible, they're filled with joy because maybe they didn't think they'd ever be able to do anything again. Ryan Campbell, the Australian ... he was a younger guy, set this record for how far he flew a plane, and then he had a plane crash and he became physically disabled. There was joy as he talked about what he's able to do now. I think there's an appreciation that comes from when you weren't able to do what you were accustomed to doing. You learn to do new things, you do get some skills back, but you learn to do new things. You find a new purpose, and that just bubbles out of these folks. That's been my experience anyway in when we've talked to them.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I mean it's very true. I think of another Australian, Stacey Copas who was injured at, somewhere around 14. She dove into a suburban Sydney above ground pool, which typically aren't deep. She was diagnosed as a quadriplegic. Now she got some movement in her hands, but it fundamentally alter the course of her life, I mean, she was an athlete in high school.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

And I don't know that she studied that hard or took life too seriously, but ever since, it's just transformed her thinking. She's a speaker, consultant in Australia, and she would ... yeah, there were moments of maybe suicidal ideation or substance abuse challenges during those early years, understandably, but she would look at that and say pretty much something like this, that she is grateful for what she went through.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

And she also was a somewhat early guest, and I remember thinking, how in the world could you possibly be grateful for what you went through? I think what she means is obviously nobody wants to go through that, but she became a different person. She became somebody that had some empathy and care for others. She really had a mission. It sort of transformed her.




Gary Schneeberger:

It is, we hope, an immense encouragement to those who listen to the show, as is the perspective of our next kind of crucible that we identified. That's the life crucibles. These are those that we group together people who life just maybe bit them, maybe they bit life. For whatever reason, there was something about their circumstances in life that knocked them off their feet, that knocked them in the pit. I think first one that came to my mind as I was writing this blog was Donte Wilburn, the young man that we spoke to who was by his own ... I mean, he came out and said it. He was a drug dealer. He learned to deal drugs when he was in high school, and he did it through college, and he discovered he wanted the cool things that the kids that he knew, that he looked up to in high school had.

He talked to one of them, "Where did you get this stuff." And the guy said, "Well, here, I'll show you," and taught him how to deal drugs. Donte's life began to spin out of control, and he ended up one night with a gun, right in the middle of his forehead, and it could have killed him. He could have been killed in a drug deal gone bad, he could have gone to jail, he could have gone to prison because of that when he got caught and he didn't. From that was birthed his life of significance. And we find over and over again, those guests who have had life crucibles, get bounced around, get knocked off their feet, things happen to them, they cause things to happen to themselves, and they end up learning lessons. We're going to talk about those lessons that'll teach you, but where they end up is at a place where they're helping other people and they're living life, "on the straight and narrow".

They circumstances that knocked them off their feet, they found a way to have those removed from their life, and they're moving forward, helping others, offering hope to others. You know who else falls in this category of life crucibles? One of the 4,872 guests from Australia, we've had on the show. Katie Folks, I think falls in this category too. The Olympic rower, who through really no fault of her own, there was a "scandal", involving a team member in the Olympics who stopped rowing. That became ... I mean, they became a byword in Australia. The prime minister went after them, but that's a life crucible of a different stripe and yet, certainly knocked her off her feet, knocked her in a hole. So, life crucibles maybe be one of the wider categories that we can get into. There's a lot of different things that you can cause or that can happen to you, that can knock you off your feet.

And Katie is an example of a story that it wasn't her ... she didn't do anything to make it happen. She just had to live with the fallout from it, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Well said. I mean, Katie Folks is a good example where she was a cox of women's eight that was in the Olympics. Katie is somebody who is a strategist. She is disciplined, she is determined, she's competitive back in the day in high school and that's from my college at Oxford at Balliol, which is a little bit more intramural. I did rowing, it was my favorite sport. So in a very small way, I can identify with Katie a little bit, but she was really good at what she did. Somehow there was a woman in the boat that had some ... I think, some challenges and had been known occasionally to stop rowing in the middle of a race, but they felt like she had this under control. It's sort of an anxiety attack, if you will. So, they might have even been in the final, I mean, they weren't like in the first heat, if you will, of the Olympics.

I think they had a pretty decent shot to medal from what Katie said. So when somebody stops rowing, I mean, you never see that. Okay, occasionally maybe you lose your roar and there's a challenge with the boat. That happens, but I don't know that that's ever happened before. So it's not Katie's fault, but yet she and her whole crew are branded as people that gave up in Australia. I mean, America takes sports seriously, but Australia takes sports as seriously as any nation on earth. So when you let down your country like that, the prime minister of Australia at the time said, these rowers were Un-Australian.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's about the worst condemnation you can possibly have.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah.




Warwick Fairfax:

Was that unfair? Sure, but I guess in the heat of the moment, the prime minister said that, so she had to bounce back from that crucible. It's not her fault, but she is one of the condemned crew, the crew of shame, if you will. She has bounced back and coaches people on resilience and strategy and has done well. Yeah, she had to both forgive maybe prime minister, the public, the media who condemned them and in some sense had to forgive that other rower. She'll probably never know quite how and why that happened, but powerful lessons of forgiveness and not letting other people's opinion of you define you, especially in this case when it wasn't her fault. There's no merit whatsoever. It's completely unfair that she should be tarnished with that same brush.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yet life isn't fair, and sometimes people will condemn you when you've done nothing wrong. That unfortunately happens.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, and that can be the shot across the bow that creates the life crucible, which is our third category of the five crucible types that we talk about in this blog, three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us. I want to say we're not getting in great depth and detail to each individual story. We're using them just as examples of the kinds of crucibles. We will do this, this just came to me. In the blog, we can hyperlink when we name these names of some of the folks we're talking about, their podcast episodes, so you can hear how that whole story goes from stem to stern, speaking of boats. The fourth category of crucible that we identified going back through our lists of 165 episodes before this one is the emotional crucible, somewhat a cousin for sure, to the life crucible, but when I think of emotional crucibles, Warwick, I think first and foremost of Esther Fleece, who was the first person we ever interviewed.

Esther is a long time friend of mine, and she found herself, she was abandoned by both parents, legally while she was still a teenager in high school. The emotions attached to that, you've said the word four or five times in this episode, shame hit her and that fueled her crucible. Another one who falls into this emotional crucible is Chris Singleton, whose mother was murdered in a mass shooting at a church. Again, nothing that he did, nothing that she, Esther, did to make this happen, but the emotions that come in the wake of that, being disowned by your parents or losing a parent, just a couple of the examples of how emotions can boil over, can take over and really knock you down into the pit.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. So yeah, Esther Fleece is ... yeah, she's a good example of, she did nothing wrong, but as a teenager, she's abandoned by her parents. She fortunately had friends in church that took her in and she didn't let it define her, but there is a sense of shame when that happens, and you feel like as a young kid, it's inevitable, there can be a tendency to think, "Well, what did I do wrong?" That's never fair or right, and there's a sense of, "Oh, I'm different than the other kids," whether it's going to basketball games or, "Oh, my mom and dad are out there and gee, where are they? Well, they abandoned me. Oh, wow, really? I'm so sorry." And you just get into the conversation for the 83rd time and you're feeling bad, and it's hard to bounce back from something like that.

I mean, when your parents abandon you, that can just cause a searing emotional hole in your psyche and your sense of self-worth.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's just inevitable that ... not consciously, but psychologically, it's just, why was I not worth loving? What's wrong with me? It's just incredibly a hard thing to cope with. Chris Singleton, just ... somebody killing his mother in a church in Charleston, South Carolina just for reasons of hate. She was a person of great faith, a leader in her church in many ways. Just bouncing back from that and not letting that seething hatred, which would be very understandable, define him. Obviously, you don't condone it. You want justice to be served, but that sort of searing hatred, it can destroy your life. Chris is wise enough to know that and has found a way to not let hatred define him, but it's just not easy to bounce back from that.

You want to continue and have a normal life. Everybody wants to hear the story for the hundredth time and he's happy to tell it, but he wants ... and he used the circumstance of his mother's death to enable him to be a speaker and a writer, and really to talk about at a bigger level about bringing people together and unity. It will be easy for those two people, Esther Fleece and Chris Singleton, to be defined by those emotional crucibles, by their worst day and neither of them let those days define them.




Gary Schneeberger:

No, and as a great example of how for Esther, that's true ... here's the funny part, I've known Esther for 20 years. When I knew her, she was Esther Fleece. She's now Esther Fleece-Allen, and I defaulted to Esther Fleece, and here's where her healing has come to life, right? Abandoned by her parent, she is now a wife and mother and married to a guy named Joel Allen, and she's Esther Fleece-Allen, and her identity back to that subject, identity has been redeemed from out of the ashes of the similar kind of thing where her parents left her. She's now a parent, and it's a beautiful thing that points to the power of learning the lessons of your crucible, marching forward in those lessons and looking at a life of significance, what that looks like. Esther Fleece-Allen is a great example of that.

The final example that I've come up with of the five types of crucible experiences that we can have ... and this is an interesting one, the quiet crucible. This one we didn't think about for the longest time, and then, we did a series on second act significance. What does it look like when the first act of your life was okay, maybe even successful, but it felt like there's something missing. Is this all there is? How do you go about pursuing a second act? Can you pursue a second act? Can that be more fulfilling, more lived on purpose, dedicated to serving others? That's the quiet crucible, those, "Is this all there is" moments. A couple of ones stick out to me where it picked the one that you want to talk about. Robert Miller, who was a successful lawyer but never stopped wanting to be a rockstar, or Nancy Volpe Beringer, who as a young girl wanted to make clothes or play with making clothes, and she wasn't able to do that.

She became a union rep, did that for her whole career, but in retirement, got on Project Runway, became a fashion designer and found her calling. So there's a case of people who in their second act, even late in life, found that life of significance that you talk about so often.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's an interesting category, the quiet crucible. We delved into this quite a bit in our E-course second act significance. What we found is there are people that it wasn't necessarily a searing, devastating crucible, a mistake, a setback. It was this feeling of being stuck. Even in my own life, I talk about my cubicle moment in which in the early 2000s, I was working for an aviation services company in Maryland, and this is just kind of pre-internet, so they didn't really know who I was. Of course, I didn't really advertise it and Australia is a long way away, but after a number of years working there, I felt like I was playing small. From my faith perspective, I felt like God had given me talents, abilities, and I wasn't really using them all, getting good performance grades, but I just felt like there's more than what I'm doing and so, I left.

Yeah, that quiet crucible and Robert Miller is a great example. His family was musical. His dad I think played the trumpet. So he had these visions of playing in a rock band, but he then became a lawyer, I think it was corporate bankruptcy law in New York City. As he puts it, the problem he had was, he was too successful. He was really good at what he did. He was bringing in lots of money. Well, how do you stop that when you're doing very well and can afford a nice lifestyle for yourself and your family? Most people don't, and I'm not judging or criticizing that at all. I get it. Eventually, as the decades wore on, and I think it was close to 60, it's like, "I would really like to try that rock band," which for most people would sound insane at that time of life.

I mean, talk about the country club. Can you imagine saying to other partners in the boardroom at whatever law firm he was in, "Hey, I'm thinking about quitting and starting a rock band." It's like, "Excuse me."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, been in an accident, what is your problem here? I mean, it just wouldn't go down too well but he did. He got a band together almost like on Craigslist, advertised with folks, and now, he has this successful jazz Latin fusion band, and he has his own podcast that's very successful, interviews a lot of musicians and talks about vision. Yeah, I mean these folks, whether it's him or Nancy Volpe Beringer, they felt like I'm doing okay. And Nancy was working for an education union in New Jersey, and it's like, yeah, I'm doing well and I'm getting paid a fair amount of money for what I'm doing because I'm making a good contribution. Both of them is like, "Is this all there is?" And if you just stay at your job, and it's not a judgment but if you feel like, "Is this all there is," you never want to be on your deathbed thinking, "I wish I would've tried this. I didn't. I left something on the table." It just gnaws away at your soul.

It's a different kind of crucible, but that gnawing away your soul of, "I could have tried this, but I didn't," that's painful in a different way, but those emotions, I don't know if they're excruciating, but they can certainly be painful, this sense of I could have tried, but I never tried. What if, what if, what if, what if. It's a terrible haunting thing to think of.




Gary Schneeberger:

So those are the five types of crucibles that we at Beyond the Crucible have interacted with, interviewed people with. We've gone through some of those ourselves. The business crucible, the physical crucible, the life crucible, the emotional crucible, and the quiet crucible. Now, here's the point in the show that's phenomenally fun because out of those five types that we just discussed, and you just heard us talk about wildly different people who were in those ... who've been through those experiences, we've discovered ... again, there's that word discovered. We've discovered as we've been doing this show that there are those universalities of how you get out of the pit. How do you move beyond your crucible. And that's the three critical lessons in this blog, three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us.

And we believe experience will bear this out from what we've found in doing this podcast, there are three critical lessons every one of these kinds of crucibles can teach us. So let's go through those one at a time. I'm going to read the whole thing as it appears in the blog, the whole description. Then, I'll ask you to talk about it Warwick. The first one is this, mindset is everything. Our guests have universally come to view their crucibles, not as things that happen to them, but as things that have happened for them. The traumas and tragedies they've experienced, they've come to believe, do not define them, but have refined them. Developing that perspective we have discovered through this show is the only way to build a ladder to climb out of the pit. What's your reaction to that?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I mean, this is profoundly true. It's sort of related to the word choice that we use a lot. When something happens to you, whether it's setback, failure, physical, emotional, crucible, whatever it is, you can be angry and bitter and say, "This was unfair. I was an idiot. I was just ... I'm a terrible person. What they did to me was so unfair," and just be wrapped in a cauldron of bitterness and anger, as we often say on Beyond the Crucible, it's like drinking poison. It just erodes your soul or you can say what happened to me, whether it's a physical emotional crucible, it wasn't fair, it wasn't right, what I did was wrong, but that's happened and there can be life altering circumstances and consequences, but how do I move forward? I think the key for many, if not, all of our guests, is just that phrase that you said so well, that it didn't happen to them, it happened for them, is how can I use this crucible that happened to me to help others?

Back to one of the first folks we discussed, David Charbonnet. He wasn't able to be a Navy SEAL anymore because he was paralyzed. He was a paraplegic, but he then as I mentioned, ran this clinic for vets in Southern California, in San Diego. So he has a mission. He can say to these other vets, I know what you're going through. I get it. You're not the same as you were. There's a sense of loss, anger, bitterness. I was there too. I can't solve all of those things, but what I can do is with this equipment, is give you maximum range of movement that is possible with the technology that exists today. That gives people some level of hope. These elite warriors, it's like, "Okay, I've got a mission here to be as functional as I can, and hopefully beyond that, to have a mission of helping others."

So mindset is everything. Mindset, in fact, in some sense, changes everything. If you just say, "Okay, what happened was awful," but the ultimate mindset shift is when you can achieve the Stacey Copas level of mindset shift and say, in some sense, I'm grateful for what happened because I would not have been the same person that I am today without that. I wish it hadn't happened, but yet in some sense, I'm grateful because it's made me a better person. It's refined my character, it's made it better in some ways.




Gary Schneeberger:

I love how this just worked out. Listen, that's how I'm going to play the last two. I'm going to ask the question. I'm going to read the statement from the blog. I'm going to throw it to you. I mean, this is your life. This is your life's work now. This is your life's legacy that we're building right here. So I'm not going to talk much more than what I'm saying right now. I'm going to read what's in the blog, point two and then I'm going to throw it to you, Warwick. Point two is this, don't go it alone. Moving beyond your crucible is a team sport, what our podcast guests have done, what Warwick stresses is so important to do is to find and lean into fellow travelers, families, friends, colleagues, professional counselors and coaches will provide insights and strategies to help you find the strength and resilience to rise out of the pit. Go.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's also so true when you're in that pit, in your worst moment, you need a friend. I think of a recent guest, Adam Vibe Gunton. He was in a very bad way, being addicted to heroin, and a lot of people tried to help him and finally, he found somebody that would just sit with him and be, didn't try and fix him, didn't try and say, "I've got these five points. Hey, maybe that substance abuse program you went through didn't work, but I've got this great one. It'll work guaranteed in five easy steps over a week, and you'll be healed forever." And just almost like a used car salesman, which it's never that easy, whether it's substance abuse or the kind of heroin addiction that Adam Vibe Gunton had. He had somebody that would just sit with him and be with him and be his friend and just listened, grieved.

That was a game changer for him to have that kind of friend that didn't judge him, but was with him in the pit and in the pain. That really helped him get out of it as he found also a mission to help others. So just having people in there with you is huge. Certainly in my own life I had ... it wasn't easy, especially in the 90s, people tried to help me, but I wasn't easy to help, but certainly for me, it really starts with my wife, Gail. We've been married, gosh, it'll be 34 years later this month. She has always been my greatest advocate and didn't judge me for the mistakes I made. Loved me unconditionally. That's a great gift that I appreciate, no end. I mean, having fellow travelers, as you try to climb out of that pit who will listen to you, won't judge you, won't try and fix you, but will be there to help you and encourage you.

And as you're saying, I'm a screw-up. I'm an awful person. It's like, "Yep, you may have made mistakes," but certainly from my faith paradigm, a helpful comment to me would be, "God loves you. Yes, there are consequences of your actions, but we're all loved unconditionally by our Creator from my perspective." Just who can encourage you and say, look, "Okay, you made some mistakes, but look, you've got a lot of strengths and there are things you can do to help others." And just that sense of not being alone and having somebody that believes in you and will encourage you, that is like rocket fuel that can absolutely increase your ability to get out of that pit and be functional and contribute to society.




Gary Schneeberger:

Point three in the three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us is this take the first right step, then the next right step. Very few of our guests have gone from tragedy to triumph in a one and done leap. This is not a time for Evil Knievel to jump over 35 buses, right? It's an incremental gains are the order of the day for recovery. As you allow your crucible to teach you more about how you are designed, what you're off the charts passionate about, you can begin to set your feet on the path of what a life of significance looks like for you. It will not just lead you out of the pit, it will lead you to a life lived on purpose, dedicated to serving others, your thoughts.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I think back to another episode in my journey in the 90s after the failure of the 2.2 billion dollars takeover, my wife is American, we moved to Annapolis, Maryland. We've been here ever since 30 years ago or so. Through the first part of the 90s, I sent out resumes. I mean, there was no work for an ex-media mogul. It's like, "I'm humble, I work harder. Sure, right? Whatever." I was unemployable. It was just ... yeah, we had some savings fortunately, but it was terrible. So eventually, I got kind of desperate as much for just having a job for my own sense of self-worth and something to do during the day that wasn't just the mind-numbing, sending out resumes and hearing crickets. So I went to a temp agency in Maryland and they said, "Well, let's test you on Microsoft Excel," because back in the day when I worked in Chase Manhattan Bank and banking after Oxford, before business school, I was actually pretty good at Excel.

I guess I must have done well. He says, "Well, you're pretty good at this. We can find you a temp job for a couple of months in Columbia, Maryland for the headquarters, the US headquarters of HEAD sports that make skis and tennis rackets and a few other things." So they needed help with some budgeting. It was sort of close to summer, but a lot of people do budgeting around August depending on your fiscal year and all. So that led to then me, getting a temp job at a local aviation services job, that became a permanent job. The point of that story is, that first step was going to that temp agency, swallow my pride and get a couple of month temp job because I was pretty good at Excel. For somebody with a Harvard MBA that feels like a lot of rungs below where I should have been.

So far below, I'm like on Mount Everest or was I on Mount Everest. I'm trying to look down through the clouds, down to sea level, and it's so far down I can't even see that far. Even a telescope probably wouldn't let me see that far. It felt that way but desperate times calls for desperate measures. Another example I can think of is Eric and Emily Orton. Eric was involved in the Wicked Production, a theater production and was doing very well. He started with a producer, another play that ended up folding and it just wiped him out financially. So he has a temporary job in the top of some Manhattan skyscraper in New York City. He's looking out on the Hudson River and he sees a sailboat and he's thinking, "I think I'd like to learn to sail."

Now, where's that going to lead? I mean, it ended up leading to taking his whole family around the Caribbean on the sailboat. Then, he has this whole business called the Awesome Factory of helping people achieve their dreams, but that first step was, I think I'd like to learn how to sail. How in the world is that going to help? I don't think he had any clue, but he felt in his gut this was the first step. Often that first step, that first right step is often the hardest step and was for Eric Orton. It was for me to swallow my pride and go to that temp agency and be willing to get just temporary job at HEAD sports. So the first step is often key, and it's often the hardest. You got to trust yourself, trust the process because it can be that first big step no matter how small that step is to getting out of the pit.




Gary Schneeberger:

And one of the great things at ... I mean, we are here at Beyond the Crucible, we're here to help people do these things, to help them understand that they need a shift in mindset. It's one of the things the podcast does, but there's blogs and other assets that we have that can help people in that regard. We're here to be someone who can help you understand, don't go it alone. We're here to encourage them to take that first step and then that next right step. You have a series right now, that's going on on social media where you talk about take the next right step, take the next right step. Here's what it looks like. It's a team sport. I think you'd agree, Warwick, we're all wearing the same uniforms for the listeners. We're on their team. We want to help them move beyond their crucible to a life of significance.

So as we wrap up here, let me just go back over. We talked about three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us. Those three critical lessons where mindset is everything. Don't go it alone. Take the first step, then the next right step. We also unpacked five different crucible types, the business crucible, the physical crucible, the life crucible, the emotional crucible, and the quiet crucible. It's a lot of information, but here's what I hope you take out of it, and that's this, all kinds of circumstances lead to crucibles, but the emotions tend to kind of group together a little bit. That I think from my perspective, offers great hope that they're not insurmountable. The fact that we have done ... this is our 166th show, the fact that we've done that is a pretty good sign that they are not insurmountable because we keep finding people who have surmounted them, who have overcome them.

Before I get into the reflection questions that end every podcast we do that's based on a blog, Warwick, I want to ask you the question, you ask guests all the time, as the host of Beyond the Crucible, what is a message of hope on this subject, on critical lessons to learn as you go through five crucible types, what is a message of hope you want to offer to our listeners who are going through it right now, who were in the bottom of the pit or somewhere from the bottom of the pit to the top of the pit right now.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I think listen to a number of the guests we've had on Beyond the Crucible. Listen to any guest really, or every guest, and I think you would find that your worst day doesn't have to define you. I think you would find there is hope. You can get out of the pit. As dark as it might seem, we had one guest back to Adam Vibe Gunton. He said the pit was so deep it was bottomless just when he thought it couldn't get worse, it did. So that's about as bad a pit as you can get. Every guest we've had has shown that your worst day, your worst setback, your worst mistake, the worst thing that was done to you, doesn't have to be the end of your story. There is a way out. So use, leverage the stories of these other guests and the lessons that they offer to say ... to help you understand that there is hope.

That first point about mindset is everything. Another way of putting it is your attitude is everything. If you say, look, the world is over. It was my fault what was done to me was awful, I'm giving up. Then it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you say, "This was awful. What I did was terrible, I'm not going to let this define me. I'm not going to have my identity wrapped up in the bottom of the pit and the mud and the slime forever. I'm going to maybe believe in something more than that, whether it's God or some other philosophy, your creator. I'm going to find something worthwhile in my life to contribute to others," which is what we call a life of significance, and a mindset attitude is everything. That's probably ... when you think of what's the first right step, the first right step is changing your mindset, is changing your attitude.

It's making a choice that I'm not going to hide under the covers. I won't be defined by my worst day. I will find a way to get out of this pit. I don't know how it's going to happen. If we're going to take one step, one step, one step, I'm going to have help getting there, but I will not let this defy me or defeat me. That attitude shift, that mindset shift is the key to having hope, to getting out of the bottom of the pit and the bottom of your crucible.




Gary Schneeberger:

With that kind of wisdom and hope, listener, you'd expect maybe this guy created the whole Beyond the Crucible platform, wouldn't you? That's true, and I've been in the communications business long enough, as I say all the time. I know when the last words have been spoken, and our host and creator and founder just did speak the last word. So as we always do on these podcasts about blogs, I'm going to leave you, listener with some reflection questions you can go through to apply what you've heard in this show and what you can read on the blog, which is at beyondthecrucible.com. The first question is this, of the five crucible experience types listed in this blog, in what category would you place your most challenging setback or failure, as you're looking to plot your crucible on those five crucible types that we listed, where would you put it?

Unpack a little bit, why would you put it there? Why does it feel like that's where it belongs? Second question is this. As you think about your most challenging crucible, in what ways did it happen for you, not to you? How can you use those learnings to fuel your journey beyond it? This is where a great time to jump into what Warwick encourages all the time, journaling. Write that down. Use this question too as something to start journaling about. It didn't happen to me, it happened for me. Here's why I think that, and dig in and find those lessons and apply them to getting out of the pit. Then, three, the third question is this, what's the next right step you can take on your journey to a life of significance? In some cases, it may be the first right step you have to take, but what is that step?

And then commit to taking it. Commit to doing it, right? A step thought of isn't a step, it's just an idea. A step acted on is indeed a step. What Warwick has described, what we've tried to unpack here on this show and what the blog talks about is that's the goal. Start moving. To get out of a pit, you have to start moving, start moving upward, then start moving outward. What you'll discover is what we know to be true from all the episodes of this show that your crucible experiences, like we said right here in this episode, they don't define you, they refine you. They're not the worst day of your life. They do not, it can feel like it for sure, we know that, but you have hope of moving beyond it and it becoming the best day of your life because the destination it can lead to. If you dig in, learn the lessons, take those steps, one foot in front of the other. Where you'll end up is the best destination you can hope for and that is a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond the Crucible. Visit our website beyondthecrucible.com to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start, our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

Helping people develop a right relationship with money, particularly the younger generations in families of wealth and influence, is the unique focus of the work done by this week’s guest, Kristin Keffeler. As a leading practitioner of family wealth advising called Wealth 360, she supports families of significant means in doing what she calls the “inner work” of money. It’s not just about managing portfolios, but developing a healthy life identity around the dollar signs. The ground we cover in this episode not only offers insights and action steps for families like the one Warwick was born into, but to any family that can benefit from shoring up its relationship to money and their relationships to each other.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.




Kristin Keffeler:

Money at its core is just a tool like every other tool we have access to, and yet it is such a ubiquitous force that it stands in as a proxy for a lot of human needs. It stands in as a proxyfor a lot of, not just wealthy families, but families in general or poor people in relationships where it stands in as a proxy for love or power or when there's hurt and sadness. Like the way to make it better is, I'm going to buy you a this or a that, or I'm going to take you to a nice dinner. When ultimately there's a human need that's trying to be tended to, but money becomes this thing that we use as a stand in and as a result, one of the things we don't have is really good language and understanding about our interpersonal relationship with money.




Gary Schneeberger:

Helping people solve that shortcoming, particularly for those younger generations and families of wealth and influence, is the unique focus of the work done by this week's guest, Kristin Keffeler. As a leading practitioner of family wealth advising called Wealth 360, she supports families of significant means in doing what she calls the inner work of money. It's not just about managing portfolios, but developing a healthy life identity around money. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This may be the most personal episode we've yet done from Warwick's perspective, given his history as the 5th generation heir to a multi-billion dollar media dynasty in his home nation of Australia.

The ground he and Keffeler cover here not only offers insights and action steps to families like the one Warwick was born into, but to any family that can benefit from shoring up its relationship to money and its relationships to each other. At the root of finding that health, Keffeler explains, is understanding that the formation of personal identity, separate from the numbers on a balance sheet, is an important destination for all of us to find our way to.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, Kristin, thank you so much for being here. We have on this podcast discussions with people who've every kind of crucible you can imagine, whether it's physical challenges, victims of abuse, financial failure, every background. And in most cases I can say I try to empathize with the guests, but I haven't been through that particular crucible. Here because Kristin is a consultant that advisor to families of generational wealth and the rising generation. This is something I actually, I don't know if I know something about it, I guess I do, but I've experienced it. I know this crucible. This crucible is me. It was very personal, very exciting. Somehow this book filled me with hope. The fact that I'm actually vaguely functional, which I'm probably more than vaguely functional, is like, wow, I think that's-




Gary Schneeberger:

Indeed, you are. Indeed, you are.




Warwick Fairfax:

... that's quite an achievement given my background of, listeners all know this, I'm the, I guess the 5th generation, or I guess in the technical lingo, I'm a, is it five?




Kristin Keffeler:

G5.




Warwick Fairfax:

G5, thank you. G5. Exactly. Which we can unpack, of a very large family media business in Australia. We'll unpack this, but Kristin, other than it being very personal, the thing that I came away with and I have three kids all in the rising generation, 32 year old son, 28 year old daughter, 25 year old son. They're all exactly in the kind of folks - when I say this, this is not a put down at all, but I read your book and I said, I don't know that it would be that helpful to my kids, because they don't need it.




Kristin Keffeler:

That's good.




Warwick Fairfax:

It blew me away because they're very hardworking. I don't need to tell them to work hard. They never got expensive cars. Not that we would've given it to them. Just their work ethic. They're the kind of people that you want to employ them because they get it done, they're humble, they work hard, they contribute, they have a strong faith. One quick story and then I'll let you talk here, so forgive me. But my youngest son, Ravi, who's in entry level sales in Indiana where he went to college, he had a car that we got him and he wanted a car that worked more for the Indiana brutal winters. And it's like, yeah, I found online a used Mazda CX-5 and I figured out I could get a better deal on it if I get it from this dealer in Minnesota than I could in Indiana. It blew me away that he would care that much about getting a good deal, because people from wealthy families, they don't do stuff like that. It was such a gift, not about the money but his attitude.

So anyway, I'll stop talking and just say thank you for being here and I love what you do and let's start at the conversation this way because what I love about you is that you are not just a practitioner, at least on some level you do understand what your clients go through and that is game changing, because clients feel heard. They feel seen, they feel understood. Talk a bit about why is that and how you got into coaching the next generation, a little bit about your family background that equips you or at least sparks an interest. Maybe that's a good starting point.




Kristin Keffeler:

Absolutely. When I think about where I ended up in my work today, I had no idea something like this existed, the idea of human capital or family enterprise consulting or family wealth consulting, those terms didn't even exist in my mind when I was in my undergraduate getting a degree in human biology and chemistry. And in my undergrad I was, part of the work that I was doing was really around human peak performance. There wasn't a lot of structured courses at that time around coaching and really understanding human peak performance. It was a field that was just starting to open up. But that's always where my hunger has been, is to try to understand how do we tap into the greatest depth of our strengths to create an experience that is, one, based in our ability to flourish rather than really focusing on our ability to suffer.

How deep can we suffer versus how broad can we flourish in the midst of the chaos that life is? That's my core wiring, and I really thought that I would follow a path that was, I don't know, something else. I got a master's in public health and business and ultimately spent my 20s focusing on health and productivity management at the work site, which was a perfect confluence of public health and systems thinking and behavior change and business. I was happily doing that work while in my personal life, my dad, who had always been a successful entrepreneur building businesses inside businesses, decided that he really wanted to go and do that, but take his chops and use them outside a business and actually build something that was ultimately saleable, which is what he did.

So he and my oldest brother, when I was getting ready to go to college, they were starting a business that they funded, they got some outside capital and my dad remortgaged our family home, he went to market with this idea that was right idea, right time, economic winds at their backs was the mid 90s. And ultimately by the time I was getting ready to graduate from college, they were getting ready to take the company public. So they did that. They had an IPO, they had a secondary public offering some months later. And then they ended up selling the company. And this all happened in a relatively short period of time really. And so there was these series of wealth events that for me were happening at a time that was a very tender time of moving from being an emerging adult, just trying to find my way into the world and what was I going to do for work and how did I identify myself, how did I think about earning money in my own right and really starting to think about how I was going to contribute.

And all of this was happening at this time when I was just trying to figure a lot of my own self out. And ultimately I think my identity experience through that was very different from my three older brothers, just because of the time of life that I was in versus the time of life that they were in and each of their relationship to my dad and the company and that kind of thing. That's just the backdrop to how I ended up here and in this role and the unique perspective that I bring, is really fed in part because for my 20s I spent a lot of time trying to figure out this landscape. There's both the inner landscape of the identity of experience of like, well, am I a kid from a wealthy family? How much is that me and not me? And how much is that a part of how I think about things, making decisions about what neighborhood to live in and what house to buy?

And how much is it just outside of me and really part of my parents' narrative and I have my own life to live, but there's these intersection points. And when we started having family meetings, which was something that my dad started pretty early on, where the estate attorney would come in and the financial advisor would come in, he was really trying to help us understand how things were going to be structured and what was joint and what was separate and those kinds of things. I would say meeting after meeting after meeting, I would show up ready to, okay, I'm going to get this. And I got so frustrated because so often I did not understand what we were talking about. I didn't understand the language of trust and estates. I didn't really understand financial planning and what tools you would use and the language there.

And so there was this external learning that I was missing and no one was giving. And then there was this internal experience of just trying to figure out, well, what does it mean to me? Is it good enough for me to just go get a job where I'm getting paid some salary or is that in the definition of success in my family's through my family's lens, is that good enough? And so my 20s were just a time of a lot of trying to understand and orient myself as an individual and as a part of a family that I really love and care about and my dad's story, which I'm really proud of, but it's not my story, but parts of it impact me. So trying to understand all of that ultimately is what led me to the work that I do. It was me trying to figure it out and then realizing there have got to be other rising gen. We didn't use that term back then. That's more my new vernacular.

But there have to be other next gen family members who are as committed to understanding how to do this well, how to engage with this effectively as I am. And there's got to be a way to shorten this learning curve about both the identity piece and also just the nuts and bolts of what do you need to know to actually be a decision maker in this space. I feel super fortunate that today where the work I get to do is something I feel very skilled at. I feel like I bring some real, a powerful set of tools around human peak performance and family systems and positive psychology to really help my client families, and then I also get to bring this personal experience to the table. So in that I feel like it's a really safe space for individuals and families to be real about the parts of being in a significant family that are difficult.

From the outside it looks like it should all just be easy. You have money, you have privilege, you have status in your community, what are you complaining about? And there's a lot of nuance packed into that, that I think needs a little bit of fresh air around it.




Warwick Fairfax:

So well said. I want to unpack here in a bit just some of the elements in your book and just some of the things that you do with your clients. But before we go there, it just sounded like you didn't grow up with multi-generational wealth when you were younger. Your dad became successful as you were in college or just before. But there was one interesting incident, I think you got an academic scholarship to go to college. Your dad was very proud. I'm sure your parents were proud. They said, well, money, I'm saving on that. How about I get you a car? And you got a black sports car. But yet it felt like that was the first taste of a bit of confusion and feeling conflicted. Talk about that almost first taste of this whole new wealth experience was confusing and conflicting a bit. So talk about the story and why it felt a bit confusing and conflicting.




Kristin Keffeler:

For sure. That was definitely a very momentous gift, because it triggered a lot of things that I didn't understand really for years to come. And I'll say, well, the more significant wealth events that happened in their wealth story happened later. My dad had always been a C-level executive. He was a high earner. My narrative around money growing up was, I honestly just didn't think of it at all. It was a non thing to me. I didn't worry about it. I didn't grasp for it. It was just like there was always more than enough. I didn't think about that. But I was also the youngest, and so by the time I was getting to that stage of life where I was in the story of the car, my dad was a very significant earner. And so in that, one of the things as you said, and the stories in my book, he had said to me like, hey, you got this scholarship. I'd like to buy you a car. I was like, sweet.

And so we started shopping and I got this black sports car, this new car smell, got the really awesome radio, had this moonroof, sunroof thing. Everything about it was just like, it was just a hot car for an 18-year-old. And I'm not even a car person. I wasn't a car person then, but I can still viscerally feel what it felt like to get behind that tight little wheel and this little stick shift. And then when I went to go drive to school, it was in the last couple weeks of my senior year, I had this moment where I was like, the student parking lot, there's a bunch of trashy cars in the student parking lot, but we weren't allowed to park in the teacher parking lot. And I decided it's a safer place for me to go take this new car. So I drove to the teacher parking lot and then I had this incredibly sinking feeling when I looked around the parking lot and I was like, this is one of the nicest cars in the teacher's parking lot.

And I slunk into school, and then really spent a lot of time in those last couple weeks at school feeling very uncomfortable. And it was only upon reflection now with the wiser mind that I have today that I realized that I was feeling a sense of shame, but I couldn't figure out what the shame was for. It was like I knew I hadn't done anything wrong, but I felt a little wrong. I felt like I don't want anyone to know about this. And yet I felt the joy of the gift my dad had given me. I could feel that from him. But I also worried about the projection of my classmates and the teachers at my school, the administrators at my school, about what it meant about me that I was now driving this black sports car to school. And it really was, it took years for me to really understand what that car meant in terms of this tussle. It was very representative of a tussle inside me.




Warwick Fairfax:

I want to broaden this out a bit in terms of, and that's a good segue into your book, The Myth of the Silver Spoon. I love that title because it's this idea that most people who don't have multi-generational wealth, whether it's multi-millionaires or billionaires to think, oh, it's all gravy, it's all Disneyland, there's no worries. Getting a job is not an issue. The family will pay you or you'll have a job in some nonprofit foundation and if the business is big enough, there's got to be some corner of the empire where you can work and just have your own little place in the sun. It sounds like very idyllic, the boats, the cars, the vacations, go to the south of France or wherever your favorite place is to go. I guess one of the reasons that was fascinating is this podcast is called Beyond the Crucible. And this is a crucible we've never really spoken about, at least other than my own personal story, but not more broadly.

You're obviously a subject matter expert, not just because of your own life, but just as if not more importantly, just the body of knowledge, thought knowledge you bring to bear in your studies and research. So talk about just overall why there's this myth of the silver spoon and why certainly for that rising generations, 20 somethings, early 30s, why having wealth can often maybe mostly but very often be a crucible. Why can money be a crucible, especially for young people of multi-generation wealth?




Kristin Keffeler:

I think to bind my way into answering that question, the place to start I think is actually broadening the lens. Because one of the reasons, well, first of all, I feel like it's really important to say that I have never had a single rising gen client either in one of my client families or someone that I'm coaching individually who doesn't recognize the power of their privilege. Any one of them would cringe at the idea that I might be painting them as poor little rich girl or poor little rich boy, look how hard this is. I want to be really clear that every one of them recognizes that they were born on third base. They have this sense of, yeah, I've been given so much, which is why it's even more painful to them when they feel like, and I cannot figure out my life. Why am I so stuck?

And I think that there's a lot of factors that create that circumstance. But one of the ones I think is really interesting and broadly applicable, is that we culturally have a very conflicted relationship with money. And we definitely have a conflicted relationship with wealth. So money being like, I think about money as the more tangible transactional, it's human scale, money's more human scale. You can buy coffee with it and go to the grocery store with it, and wealth is an abstraction. It's like big numbers on a page that it's goes up, it goes down, you have this sense, but it's like it really is an abstract concept. It's not a tangible daily concept. We collectively across the economic continuum have a very subconscious conflicted relationship with money and with wealth.

And there's lots of roots that we could go into and look at historically and sociologically, why and how. But really I think, where we are today is, there is a tussle where money at its core is just a tool like every other tool we have access to. And yet it is such a ubiquitous force that it stands in as a proxy for a lot of human needs. It stands in as a proxy in a lot of not just wealthy families, but families in general or poor people in relationships where it stands in as a proxy for love or power or when there's hurt and sadness, the way to make it better is of this, I'm going to buy you a this or a that, or I'm going to take you to a nice dinner. When ultimately there's a human need that's trying to be tended to, but money becomes this thing that we use as a stand-in.

And as a result, one of the things we don't have is really good language and understanding about our interpersonal relationship with money. What's our money story? How does it play out? How do you feel? If you had to describe money as a friend, what kind of friend would it be to you? Is it the kind of friend you would actually pick to hang out with and you think is like, no, that one's got my back. Or is it a little fickle and a little fleeting? I think that's the broader lens around this, is that we have a difficult relationship with money collectively. And then as it relates to wealth and people who hold wealth, we have this binary way of thinking about it where through one, both a sense of envy, like, must be nice. I would like that. And then also this sense of disdain or resentment, like, we paint a broad brush of wealthy people are whatever, fill in the blank.

It's something generally not good. And I think that because of that teeter-totter of envy and disdain and particularly disdain, in our culture, generally in a capitalistic culture, we will hold up wealth creators because those are people who are doing something, even if we have a little curiosity or disdain about how they're doing it and whether it's based in goodness. But we will hold up wealth creators, but wealth inheritors are quickly discounted. What I think is really interesting is they're just born into a circumstance that just is what they were born into. You have the lived experience of that. It's not a choice. And it doesn't mean that it's something that they should say, well, I want none of that. But it also means that as an inheritor, as a rising gen, you're absorbing the projections of the culture around you.

And I find that very often those inheritors internalize the message that somehow I'm not good enough. And then you add to that what it is like to be raised in the shadow of a big thinking wealth creator. Someone who's doing, whether it's a father or a mother or grandfather or grandmother or wherever it is in the family lineage, there's somebody who has done something that few people are able to do. That Midas touch, the alchemy of turning lead into gold and really creating something significant from that. And try to find your own bar of success, when the bar for success that you can touch you can see is so high that it's like, well, sort of my story of like, I don't know, is it good enough just to go get a job making a salary? I'm looking at people in my family, my dad, my brother who just went and took the company public.

I'm never going to earn wealth that working in a public health job. I think that, you add what society's projections are onto what can be a very complex family circumstance to try to find your own voice and your own path. And in the midst of that, there's all these things that are joint assets. So where if somebody, typically an emerging adult might just go take space from their family and differentiate and find their own identity, when you have a family where there's commonly held assets and you have to come back together to make decisions or you're working with a trustee, there's all this binding back to the mothership that makes it really difficult to do the important work of differentiation. I'll pause, because there are many other factors that create a uniquely pressure-filled circumstance.

And one of the things that I really intended to do in the book is to open up the windows and let some air into some of that, because from the outside it looks like someone raised in that situation should have everything they want and need. And they do generally have everything that they need, but oftentimes that inner stuff isn't being tended to. And their sense of self and identity and deep close friendships, all of that feels more difficult to come by. There's not a lot of safe places for kids raised in this situation to actually acknowledge that they have some wounds as well.




Warwick Fairfax:

So well said Kristin, and it is going to be a little different because I guess as best I can help illustrate what you are saying and prove your thesis is true. Everything you said makes sense. I remember something my grandmother said is, something like being born in this wealthy Fairfax family, it's like having dessert. And so you have really a duty to service to the community. So in my case, which made it, and listeners are obviously familiar with this, but that made it particularly challenging, is that this large family media business, which by the time I was around, had newspapers, TV, radio, magazines had the equivalent in Australia of the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, the major opinion leaders. What made it particularly challenging, it wasn't just about the money, the influence that we had on the society was large.

It wasn't just about making money, it was like you have a duty to the nation of Australia. That's what this is about. Not so much the money. And so the pressure wasn't just to preserve family wealth. It's like, well, how do I play my part in helping my country, if you will? We had independent newspapers that didn't promote one party or the others. My dad was probably moderately conservative, but the articles would attack politicians. It didn't matter what party. It was truly an independent paper, and it always has been. So all that is to say is, the person with the business skills was my great-great-grandfather, five generations before. And by the time I came around, most of my family are more, I don't know, journalists types, the business genes had long since died out.

So there was this sense of who am I without being a Fairfax? And in my case, you had three knighthoods in a row, which is exceptionally rare, and they're all earned on their own, right? There wasn't inherited. So my dad had the same name as me, he was Sir Warwick Fairfax, and then there was Sir James Oswald, and before him Sir James Redding. And then I moved to America, so I didn't really do much to accomplish that. So I'm not a knighthood. They don't have knighthoods anymore in Australia, it's considered a bit too royalist and they don't allow that anymore, which is fine. But just the sense of, gosh, I've got three knighthoods in a row, and how am I going to live up to my father, who was a great man, had his flaws. I loved him very dearly and admired him greatly, how to live up to his, he was, again, more of a journalist philosopher, if you will, but was highly intelligent person, wrote books on, I don't know, comparative religion.

He was a fascinating guy. That was the pressure. So in terms of as you're talking about money, I saw how my dad was married three times, my mother twice. I saw how money could be very damaging. We'd have parties of prime ministers and presidents and Hollywood people, and there seemed a lot of fake people. So to me, I'm a person of strong faith, and in the Bible it says, "Money is a root of all evil." I got to tell you, in my Bible, metaphorically, it says it is the root of all evil. That's not biblically accurate, but for me I just saw money as something that destroys and damages. So that was my relationship with money. I'm not a sackcloth and ashes kind of person. You have no right to your own life, you've got to fight the good cause, prepare yourself.

So if this was a biblical parable, I wasn't the prodigal son, I was the good son that stayed home. So I did my undergrad at Oxford like some other relatives. Worked on Wall Street, got my MBA at Harvard Business School. I was one of these people, I'm going to show them I'm not some dilatant, wasteful. I'm going to work hard. I'm going to be different than some in my family. So yeah, maybe a bit of a chip on my shoulder. I always wanted to prove myself to myself. I don't know if I'm a classic case, but I'll pause here, but I think I fit a lot of the paradigms that you're going through. The saving grace for me. We've lived in, my wife's American who grew in more of a normal background. Her dad was an oral surgeon, which oral surgeons make decent money, but not at the level that my family did.

But fortunately the name Fairfax, in terms of the Australian media thing, I think it means nothing here in America, which I love. I can be my own person. But all that's to say is a lot of what you're talking about is really true. It's just trying to find your sense of identity and who are you, and apart from the family business, it's real. So anyway, I don't know if any of that makes sense. I don't know if that fits your paradigm, fortunately or unfortunately. Any comments or reflections on that?




Kristin Keffeler:

I think what you're naming is, it's the story arc for so many, right? You have lived to tell the tale on the other side of some really, yeah, talk about crucible, right? You have lived and the work that you're doing now is so meaningful because it invites people to, one, recognize the depth of their resilience, and two, think about the value of their lives beyond whatever feels like that defining moment, the worst moment, your story arc is so common in the places I work. And ultimately, you're even talking about, I was talking about the importance of differentiation, that's a key developmental milestone, usually happens sometimes in ones like late teens and early 20s. That's an important time to find yourself separate from your family. You had to move all the way to the US decades later to find that, right? And to find the space where Fairfax didn't mean something, where somebody wasn't projecting something onto you or holding onto your story that was like, wow, can I live beyond that?

I was really struck by what you said about money being the root of all evil. And I feel like my feeling is that our ill-formed relationship with money is how it can become the root of evil. But when we actually have a really healthy relationship with it, which takes a lot of awareness and a lot of work, money is an incredible lever. It's one of the, honestly, the core, when I think about purpose in my work, there's two reasons that I do the work I do in the market that I work in. And one is that I feel that human thriving is for all people. Right? So cross an economic demographic and I could have chosen any place on that continuum to work. This happens to be the place because of my own story that I have found myself. And secondly, I believe so strongly in the power of concentrated capital as a lever.

And we can use that, there's governmental agencies and nonprofits and there's lots of ways that capital can become concentrated for use. But I have not seen any agency work as fast and as effectively as an individual when there's a need. So an individual or a family. Think about what happened during the pandemic and how quickly the Gates Foundation and many, many other wealthy individuals were figuring out how to get testing out and get support out into their communities. And they were able to do that very quickly. I won't take us too far off, I'll step off my soapbox, but I do think that money is an incredible lever, but it's our ability to be in right relationship with it that allows it to be such.




Gary Schneeberger:

And let me jump in at this moment, because I'm the guy who's a little bit on the outskirts of this conversation. I'm the son of a beat cop, and he didn't make a whole lot of money. He did, however, he lived long, he lived to be 93, so he worked 27 years and lived off his pension for 36. So he got that part of it, he leveraged that part of it right. But one thing I want to make sure listeners understand as we're talking even about families like Warwick's, families like the people that Kristin works with, what you're talking about, about money being a powerful lever, that goes across the spectrum of whatever amount of money you make. You describe on your website, the work that you do is real, messy, powerful, clarifying and momentum inducing.

And I think you would say, and correct me if I'm wrong, that that is for people who are in that high leverage wealth and people who are just going day by day trying to make it. Those are true adjectives for money in any context or at any level of accumulation. Aren't they?




Kristin Keffeler:

Absolutely, Gary. I think that our path to personal freedom with wealth or with money is, wherever you're at on that continuum, you have to do the work to find the peace and the joy of operating with money. So often there's a tussle. I know that I lived it in my version of it in my 20s, and we don't have the time for me to go into the story around that, but I was not getting money from my parents in my 20s. That was not part of their plan. I obviously had a backstop if I needed it, but they were like, no, you go make your life happen. Which is what I was doing. And when I decided that I wanted to leave my good W2 paying job and go follow this dream of getting to work with enterprising families and rising gen, I spent many, many months not earning.

In that time I found that I had a really tense relationship with money. I was trying to control it at every, I had a death grip on my savings account, and I wasn't trusting, I wasn't spending money based on my values. I wasn't allowing there to be celebration of what came in, even when it was like I wanted it to be this big and it was this big. I wasn't allowing myself to really actually experience the joy of the currency, money in motion. And ultimately it was that getting to the place of deciding that I was not going to live in pain around money anymore, is where the breakthrough for me was. And it was like, it didn't matter that there was less and less and less in my savings account every single month at that point.

I had created a specific ritual for how I was going to spend in alignment with my values. I was going to celebrate everything that came in and I was going to keep working hard and intelligently to make this dream happen. And I think we all have that. I don't want to discount the people who are truly scraping it by day-to-day. And I still think that there is room for that inner work that is messy and takes you down to your knees at times, but the ability to move into a place of flow comes from moving through that and into something more empowered.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's so well said. I think as you talk about in your book, you've got to do the inner work to do the outer work. For you to be a contributing member of society from a wealthy background and be able to give, as you mentioned that Gates family did in the pandemic too, but do those sorts of things. If you don't have a foundation with the inner work, that tends not to happen. And certainly I found that in my case. I want to talk a bit about, obviously with the rising generation, just the whole identity is a huge issue, finding your place in the world and certainly was for me, what helped is going to Oxford in England, nobody knew much about Australia, and they almost joked about, okay, so you're a wealthy family in Australia. Some of the more pompous people would say, well, we think of Australians like convicts.

So in terms of the social hierarchy, you've got the upper class, the middle class, lower class, and then convicts and Australians. Okay, so you're a wealthy convict. Oh great, who cares? I actually loved that. That was a badge of honor, but a whole other story. Worked on Wall Street, Harvard Business School. So all of those things enabled me to prove myself to myself, so that it gave me little drops of confidence that I could work hard and achieve things. And for me, the bigger issue wasn't so much about the money, although it was, as listeners know, after the $2 billion takeover after my dad died to restore the company to the ideals of the founder, that having failed, it was more me being responsible for 150 year old family company going out of the family. That was really the dagger in the heart that I had to deal with.

Money is not the motivator. But I began to see, look, I don't have to achieve what John Fairfax my great-great-grandfather did. I can form my own path because I'm a person of faith. I believe God loves us all unconditionally, be we rich, poor, or what have you. I find my own path to contribution, and now I have a much healthier attitude to money. But it took years to get there. I started off, I'd drive into the executive parking lot at John Fairfax Ltd, that had their Daimlers and Mercedes. I had my red Toyota Camry. That was the badge of honor. I wasn't going to have the fancy car. I was inverse snobbery, if you will. But gradually from there, the years went by, I got a Volvo and that I was a little cringing about that. And then I said, okay, I think I can handle an Audi, which I drive now.

It's not right or wrong, but you speak to me 30 years ago, I still wouldn't buy a Rolls or Ferrari. I'm not judging, that would be a step too far for me, rightly or wrongly. So now I have a better attitude to money, but I'll pause from my story and just talk about how you connect the inner work to the outer work, how you work with the rising generation. You've got many case studies in your book, to have a proper sense of identity and self-worth so that they can begin to be contributing members of society either through some foundation, through their own work, and how you make that change, because it's clearly not easy. Every family has its own challenges and dysfunctions and attitudes about money and control.

What are some of the principles you use to change the inner work or the inner game so that they can be contributing members of society and use that wealth for positive purposes?




Kristin Keffeler:

It's such a big question.




Warwick Fairfax:

Sorry.




Kristin Keffeler:

We could do a day long course in that. A couple pieces that are maybe important way points to talk about in this is that, one, the formation of individual identity is so fundamentally important for all people, particularly the 20s are a really important age generally, where people build a lot of identity capital. And identity capital is like the experiences and it's the barista job, and the I worked in the mail room and all the things that one does to help them get a sense of what they like and don't like. Who are they? And if everybody in my family was a doctor, but I decided to go, I don't know, pursue painting, how does it feel to be an outgroup of the family? And can I find my voice and myself in that? And that is all about pushing on the edges of one's own bubble of self. How much is me and how much is my family?

And how do I define myself and how can I be both in relationship with my family and still stand as an individual? All people need to do that. That's not an affluent family thing or an affluent individual thing. But the thing that wealth and a significant family name can do, is start to create more noise in that system when you're trying to find your identity. And so things that often happen, I often will hear family members say, particularly if they have a last name that's on a building, the name of a company in their community, and they will say, I want to move as far away as I can. I want to go someplace where no one knows what a X, Y, Z family member. They don't know that name. It means nothing to them. So I can just be me.

And that I think is actually a really healthy part of identity formation, particularly if then one can come back and hold their own in the midst of the bigness of their name. I think one waypoint is this recognition that the formation of self, of identity capital is so important. And then second is to recognize that wealth and a significant family name can create noise in that system. So then third is ultimately in the book, what I did was take what I do in my coaching work and try to define it in a way that someone could work through a process on their own, so that they could actually do some of this without needing to be on a phone call with me or someone like me. And so I won't go through, there's seven steps in this process because part is inner work and part is outer work, meaning the inner work is the who am I? What's the mindset I have?

The outer work is what behaviors do I have and how do they align with who I am on the inside? So what I will say though is that without going through all seven steps, is that really recognizing the impact of mindset. So mindset is, it's like the big filter. If I think that the world thinks that I'm not worthy, that's a mindset that I'm taking every piece of data from the world into me through this filter of unworthy. So you have to be very clear about what mindset you want to cultivate and be vigilant in continuing to own that mindset, work through. Sometimes it's like because you have to shift into like, no, I am worthy. I am worthy because I'm a human. I am loved by God. I have a place on this earth. And so how can I use a mindset of worthiness, then align my beliefs with that?

And then ultimately it's getting really clear step by step of creating that alignment from the inside out. And then your actions need to align with who you are being. So if you are someone who is worthy, then one of the ways that rising gen, and this will be my last point on this. Just an example of what it means to take that inner work and externalize it, is I will often talk to rising gen who say things like, I shouldn't go take that job because I don't actually need the money, but somebody else does. I appreciate the heart in that, and one of the things that I want them to understand is, is that coming from a place of unworthiness? I'm not worthy. I don't want to put myself out there in a position where I'm going to have to get paid and get judged by my actions at work.

What is that really coming from? And you have to understand where the root of that is before you understand whether that action is a right action or a misaligned action.




Warwick Fairfax:

What you say makes so much sense. As I think about really one of the things in the book that really struck a chord, everything did, but in particular the whole sense of identity. And as a rising generation, 20 something, early 30s, when this whole takeover thing happened, I was 26. I was right in the middle of that. And yes, I'd achieved some things. Yes, legacy probably played some role with Oxford, but I got good grades and you had to pass a competitive exam. And I did well at my college, at Oxford and Harvard MBA, the family helped that much there. I was able to prove myself to myself. But for many, this is conflicting seas of identity. Some may, as you write in the book, over identify, and I have family members who are like that. It's like, I'm a Fairfax, which means a lot in Sydney.

For me, I was at the other end of the spectrum. It's like, that doesn't mean I'm better or worse than anybody else. I don't want my identity to be wrapped up in that. So I fought that a bit. But just trying to find self-worth outside of your name, not feeling worthless because you're a Fairfax or Rockefeller or not feeling like you're better than every human on the planet. Both extremes are not psychologically helpful or healthy. But just finding ways to, as you say very well in the book, to clear that inner clutter, find a sense of self-worth from within. Or I guess from my perspective, I believe, we're all children of God and loved by God unconditionally. We all have inherent value and worth. That was the core of my finding meaning and purpose. And then beginning to find things I could do well to help others.

So again, I don't want to make it all about my story here, but for me, one can analogize it for others, being an elder at my local evangelical church for many years and before on my kids school board for a long time. The pastor of my church in Annapolis asked me to give a 10-minute sum illustration on what I went through and what I felt like I'd learned. And amazingly so many people weeks and months after said, well, Warwick, your story really helped me. And I'm like, how many other former media moguls or rising generation, people of wealth, Annapolis is a reasonably okay place, but no, it was a cross section of society. So that floored me. If somehow what I went through could help others and my own crucible, that motivated me. So it took a number of years to write the book and what I do now with Beyond the Crucible, and it's very motivating, it's very uplifting.

Because I feel like I'm using who I am and my story to help others, and in its own way it can be healing. That's not a prescription for every rising generation person, but there's a metaphor, if you will, that understanding who you are separate than wealth and position and finding a way to contribute. And then money, we try to give generously, if not very generously, to things that we believe in. We try to be responsible for what we have. But that inner work is so critical, especially in your 20s, early 30s, figuring out who you are. Everybody has different baggage depending on the family they grow up in. But I guess as we maybe, I don't know if we're quite ready to begin to land the plane, but we're at least on the other side of the halfway line.

For young people, maybe there's a rising generation person, and maybe they're not multimillionaires, but even if you had a mom or dad who has an accounting firm, a law firm or their doctors, there's still pressures at a different levels. Who am I other than I'm the son or daughter of so-and-so who's well known in my community? You don't have to be multimillionaires to have this pressure. What would some helpful thoughts about finding out who your identity and making that contribution? I think we understand the challenges, what's ways to sort out the challenges? I realize that's another big mega question, but if there's a summary version of how you deal with some of that stuff.




Kristin Keffeler:

One of the best ways that I know to start to really understand who you are, is to have the courage to try things. You figure out what works and what doesn't work for you. One of the things that is, and the research that I did that shows up in the book, and it was when I did my master's work at the University of Pennsylvania in applied positive psychology, the research project I did was to study exemplar rising generation family members. So rising gen were at the top end of development. And I wanted to understand if there were specific character traits and skills that they maybe had in common that helped them get to the place where they could say that they were thriving and that they had lives of meaning and purpose. And one of the things that was common in those interviewees was a growth mindset.

So growth mindset being the ability to recognize that your intelligence is malleable, your grit is malleable. We have the ability to grow and learn and that we don't have a fixed amount of anything. So people who have a fixed mindset get very stuck in not wanting to try. They don't want to do something where they might be shown a fool. Well, I'm not going to get too far over skis because if I accidentally shoot too high and try to grab for something that's way up here and I fail, everybody's going to know I'm a fool. Where somebody that has a growth mindset will do that exact same thing. And if they stumble and fall, they'll go, wow, what did I learn from that? All right, what do I need to take from that to move into this next thing?

There's less fear around just trying things out and it being okay if turns out engineering wasn't your thing, all right, let's pivot. How do you take what you learned from what did work about that field and apply it to architecture? Right? There's a lot to be said for the courage to try, is a huge part of being able to form a strong connected identity. And that is in part, the individual's work. Each individual has to have that courage and parenting can really help provide a leg up. If there is a safe environment where when you're sitting around the dinner table everybody shares both a win and a challenge of the day, and it becomes normalized that difficult things happen to all of us, and we can do hard things. We as a family have a culture that we are capable of taking on difficult things.

Then kids internalize that and they become better at taking risks and saying like, okay, I'm going to try this out. I have a safe base. If I skin my knees, I have some place to go home and be tended to before I go back out into the world. And that to me I think is a core thing that's both individual and family culture that allows for kids across the economic demographic to figure out, who am I?




Warwick Fairfax:

Just one of the things you just said here was so important, is we've talked a lot about the rising generation and we've talked a lot about what you can do to find your own identity, find some meaningful work that has purpose, begin to get self-confidence, realize your sense of self-worth is not wrapped up in your family, it should be wrapped up in something external. All very good points. But I think what you write in the book in maybe one of the later chapters, maybe throughout, is just the role of parents. Parents of rising generation, especially like I was somewhat fortunate, despite all of the somewhat level of dysfunction in my family, is by the 5th generation, my father got up in a wealthy family. So both my parents were cognizant of not wanting to spoil me. So they went in with, they weren't perfect.

I'm not perfect either, but they didn't lavish expensive things on me. That wasn't going to happen. With my first car I got this little Renault 5, which was a small car back in the late 70s, early 80s in Europe, because I was going to Oxford. I got half of that out of my own money for a part-time job I had. Well, that was really smart the way they organized that. It meant tremendous pride in being able to pay for half of that little car myself. So where I'm going with this is, with parents, it's just so important for parents not to give their kids too much, to have a sense of work ethic, but a lot of people have work ethic in wealthy families, at least the people who make it. But a sense of humility, a sense of values.

You write about this in the book. What are the values that we want to, I don't know, not transfer to our kids, but what do we stand for, my wife and I have tried to do that in our own family and just by modeling certain behaviors. One of the values that we had is I wanted to be around my kids games. I wasn't going to be this absentee father the way some are. Every birthday when we, listeners have heard this story a million times, when we go around the table saying, what do we most admire about whoever birthday it is. It's just we've done that for a lot of years. My boys who are more athletic and picked up my wife genes, she's more athletic. Every single card they write, they say, dad you were at my tennis game, at my basketball.

Every single birthday for, I can't tell you how many years. I guess that admonition is, I know if you're very successful, you're probably really busy. You got to be there for your kids activities, because that matters. So anyway, I guess I've given a little mini sermon there, so forgive me. But I guess, do you have a few words for parents out there of the rising generation of just things that they can do to at least make the rising generations easier at life? So much easier than it could be?




Kristin Keffeler:

Well, you said it a little bit and in some ways don't make it easier. There's a difference between, I think one of the things that is an important distinction, and this isn't just for super affluent people, this is for people who just have more than they need to get by, financially speaking, that when we as parents, our best bet with our kids is to be thoughtful about what it is we're actually trying to parent for. Because money can be a buffer. It can solve a lot of problems, and it can solve problems that make our lives easier, right? Oh my gosh, my kid forgot his cleats at the field again. You know what? We're going to buy them two pairs now and stick them in the closet, that makes my life easier. I can buy those really quick rather than say, no, we're getting in the car and you're going to go down to the field and you're going to walk back and forth until you find your shoes. Right?

There is a way that parenting, when you're thoughtful about parenting based on values, who are we? Right? The value you named was that you really wanted to be present for your kids. That there was a sense of, nope, it's not just that they are appendages in my family, but I'm off doing this other thing. But no, I want to be actively a part of their lives. That's the most effective way to transmit values, is to live them. Our kids pay attention to what we do, not what we say. And being aware that money is something that can create a buffering effect, so you have to be even more thoughtful about what it is you're trying to parent for. If you want kids that are gritty, and if you want kids that have a growth mindset, then being really thoughtful about how and when do you use the resource you have because you can. And when do you be really clear that you're not going to do that? Right?

Your kids will know that you can. It's even tougher to be, I think we have to, it's where you have to be really clean in your relationship with money to be able to say, you know what, honey, I know that I can buy you those cleats. And the truth is, I think it's more important that you really understand the value of taking care of your things. So we are going to take the time together to drive back over to the field and I'll help you look, but we're going to find those cleats, right? There's a distinction there that kids understand. It's like, yeah, I could do that, but I'm not going to because there's something else that is more important.




Gary Schneeberger:

So Warwick, do you have another question or another direction that you want to take things? Because I have an idea.




Warwick Fairfax:

You go right ahead. You go right ahead.




Gary Schneeberger:

All right. I have finally figured out what my role is in this conversation, and that is this, my role is to be the applecart upseter. Okay? That's my role in this conversation. So I'm not going to take this time before the captain turns on the fasten seat belt sign. I'm not going to take this time to ask our guest a question. I'm going to take this time to ask our guest to ask our host a question. Because we rarely get this opportunity, where we have a guest, in all seriousness, who has expertise in your crucible, in the beats of your crucible. So I'll ask you, Kristin, is there something about Warwick's background story, what he's been through, many times in his conversation you've said you, you've found this in your research. Is there anything about his story, his journey that you're curious about as an expert in this field?




Kristin Keffeler:

Yeah. I'm curious Warwick, of all the many, many lessons that you've learned through your crucible experience, what is the most valuable one that you would most want your kids to internalize?




Warwick Fairfax:

Boy, that's a great question. I guess my most important value is my faith. My faith in Christ, so to speak. They all have a strong faith. Basically that we have self-worth as human beings, whether you're rich or poor or whatever background, every human has equal value. Being wealthy doesn't mean you're better than other people. It also doesn't mean you're worse. We are all of inherent value. I think most major religions I believe have some version of that. That would probably be foundational. And we are put on this earth for a meaning and purpose. Part of the core of life is to find your own meaning and purpose. One of the things I learnt in very heavily amongst other things, I'm a certified executive coach and I have opinions on a lot of things, but with my kids, I have pushed them from day one, I don't care what you do, I want you to do what you want to do. I want you to be happy and fulfilled.

I don't push them other than I want them to be who their uniquely wired to be. And they're all doing very different things. And I'm the cheerleader. I can't tell you how many mock interviews I've done in the last five, seven years. I've done tons and tons. Actually not bad at that because coaching and asking questions is one of my key skill sets. What are your strengths and weaknesses? What can you contribute in this job? All that kind of thing. I guess the fact we all have inherent value, at least from my faith perspective, we're all put on this earth to have meaning and purpose. I do try and live what I believe, try to have a humble attitude, not think that I'm better than other people. I don't know, somehow, they're not perfect, I'm not perfect. But they are living those values. They are people of faith. They are humble. They have a very good work ethic. They're amazing people.

So the highest compliment I could give on my kids, I'm not saying it's all me or my wife, but it's their lives, is that there's a lot in this book that was helpful to me and affirming, frankly, because I'm in a pretty good place, relatively speaking. But for my kids, it's like, well, that's interesting, but I didn't grow up with these challenges of identity and who am I and confusion and money. They know that we're wealthy, they know our situation, broadly speaking. They're not people that are terrified by money, nor do they feel like they're owned by it. They have a very healthy relationship. It just blows my mind. I don't know, the highest compliment I could pay them is that a lot that's in this book that's helpful to me is not as relevant to them. And it's not a putdown of your book at all. So don't take this as a dis at all.




Kristin Keffeler:

That's right. I say respond to you two, because you and your wife, and the incredible beings, that you have given them the room to become.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, I guess because of the way I grew up, it was almost like a sacred cause that I wanted my kids to grow up differently than I did. I wanted to break, not the curse, but the whole five generation Fairfax. And you got to live in light of some superhero founder. I know we need to land the plane here, but when you have the founder, of course there's a book that was written on him. He wasn't just a successful businessman. He was an elder at his church. He was a wonderful husband, great father. His employees loved him. When he died, they said, his employees said, we've lost a kind and valued employer. There were no worker rights laws in the 1800s. So talk about the bar. He wasn't just a successful businessman. He was an incredible human being.

The bar was as high as you could possibly get, but yet now it's like, I don't know, I can't emulate him in his business, but if I could just be the kind of man he was in terms of character and faith and how he treated all the human beings. It's not a competition. I'd be okay with 10% of the way he was, I'd be fine with that. I don't know if that at all answers your question. Hopefully it answered some of it. Back to you Gary.




Gary Schneeberger:

You've fulfilled exactly what I was trying to do. I have definitely upset the applecart, so I'm about to go pick up the apples. But before I go pick up the apples, Kristin, I would be remiss if I didn't give you the chance to let listeners know how they can find out more about you and your services and what you do. So how can they find you online? And then we'll kick it back to Warwick to ask a final question.




Kristin Keffeler:

Thank you. My private practice is Illumination360. So illumination360.com. And that's where most all my podcasts and articles and publications are housed there. I also am most active on LinkedIn, and that's just Kristin Keffeler, K-E-F-F-E-L-E-R. And would love to get to be a part of any conversations that these listeners are interested in. So thank you for having me.




Gary Schneeberger:

Warwick, the last word. Well, not the last word, because Kristin will answer the question, but the last question is yours as always.




Warwick Fairfax:

We often ask this question, so I'll try and apply it to this particular conversation. There may be a young person, a rising generations, 20s up to early 30s. This may seem like their worst day, they might have over-identified with money, under-identified, they may be ashamed, embarrassed. I don't even know if my friends like me for myself. I can't find anything to do that's worthwhile. I have no drive, no ambition. I'm just listless, I'm depressed. Counseling doesn't seem to help me at least maybe I don't let it help me. There may be some rising generation that today may be, I don't know if it's their worst day, they may be in a bad, confused, somewhat despondent place saying, what is my role in the world?

I'm just this small cog in this big machine. I'll never live up to my parents' expectations. Why bother? Why bother? It's all too hard. I'm just going to give up on life. I'm just going to check out. Maybe I'll sit on a beach for the next 50 years and I don't know, better than nothing. What would a word of hope be for maybe for that rising generation that maybe today's not a great day, maybe they're in a pretty bad place? I know it's a big question, but at least what would a grain of hope or a ray of hope, if you will, you could give to that rising generation person?




Kristin Keffeler:

I think I would, one, I would say we all are worthy. There's a unique gift that every single one of us is here to give. And I think one of the greatest sadnesses is, for someone to go through their life and not really even scratch the surface of what that is. And it can take the courage of a lion to be willing to go lean into yourself enough, to know yourself enough to tap into that unique gift. And yet it is there, like a little flame. Every single one of us has it. And it may feel like it is so small that you can't even tend, you can't feel it. But the more you actually let a little light, a little oxygen, a little fuel in there, the more that that flame grows and the easier it is to hear that small still quiet voice that is guiding you to the next right step.

And that's all any of us needs to do, is tune in enough to know what the next right step is. I think that there is, so that would be the message of hope, is like, it's there. That little flame is there. And ultimately the goal doesn't have to be to go do something massively significant in the world. It is good enough to figure out how to be someone who is showing up with that light and that spreads to people in all sorts of ways that become part of a virtuous cycle, that when you give out, you get fed back to. Takes a little bit of courage, but it's possible. And the last thing I would say is, every single one of us has at least one experience we can probably lean on from some time. It may be in childhood or teenagehood, when we know that we really showed up as our best.

And being able to lean into and uncover times that we have already experienced that can be great fuel when we're at moments of feeling very desperate that it's not there.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough listener to know when the last word's been spoken on a subject and Kristin just spoke it. So until the next time we are together, I'm going to steal a couple of the adjectives that Kristin uses in describing her business. In saying this, we know that your crucibles are real and messy, but we also know this, and Warwick talked about it, and Kristin has talked about it. They're not the end of your story. You can learn the lessons of those crucibles. You can apply the lessons of those crucibles. And when you do, you can write the next chapter in your story, which can be the best chapter in your story. Because where that chapter will lead to as you walk out that journey is to a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond the Crucible. Visit our website beyondthecrucible.com, to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start, our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

Lauren Sisler was a freshman at Rutgers University when she learned she had lost her father just hours after she had lost her mother. Having come home to grieve one parent, she was blindsided by the news that the other had died, too. And she had no idea how any of it had happened. This week, we speak with Sisler about that 2003 tragedy, when she was not only hit with the unfathomable news of the deaths of her mom and dad, but the shame she couldn’t shake after she learned how they died: from prescription-drug overdoses.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.




Lauren Sisler:

They get in the car and we start driving. And at this point it was just tears, nobody really said anything. And then finally, as we start driving, I said to my Uncle Mike, I said, "Uncle Mike," I said, "I just want to see my dad. Where's my dad?" And then he pulled the car off the side of the road as you take the exit ramp back onto the Interstate. And I just remember feeling that gravel underneath the car crunching as he put it into park. And he turned around and he looked at me and he said, "Lauren, I'm sorry, but your dad's passed away too."




Gary Schneeberger:

In the moment she just described, Lauren Sisler learned she had lost her father just hours after she had lost her mother. Having come home to grieve one parent, she was hit with the news that the other had died too. And she had no idea how any of it had happened.

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This week, Warwick and I speak with Sisler, a freshman gymnast at Rutgers University at the time in 2003, who was not only hit with the unfathomable news of the deaths of her mom and dad, but the shame she couldn't shake after she learned how they died: from prescription drug overdoses. It would take her years to break free from what she calls the shackles of that shame, keeping the truth to herself even as she launched a successful career as a sideline reporter for college football and gymnastics on ESPN and the SEC network. But as she began to share the true story of her parents' deaths, she discovered she could transfer the hope and healing she experienced in facing those hard truths to the audiences that heard her speaking.




Warwick Fairfax:

Lauren, thanks so much for being here. It's an honor to have you. Before we get into a lot of what you do, and I love the book that you have coming out, How I Found My Sideline Shimmy, listeners, you'll have to listen to kind of understand more about that, you might already know, but we will discuss that more. But just in the work you do and the speaking, I love what you talk about, about fall in love with your story, and you have a choice in terms of how we deal with crucibles. So you really have an important mission that you have for people and it's on your heart.

But I'd love just to hear a little bit about how you grew up, I understand you grew up in Roanoke, Virginia, which is... Those of us in the Washington D.C. area are somewhat familiar with the end of the Shenandoah Valley, and it's far Southwestern corner of Virginia, I guess? But tell us about what life was like for you growing up in Roanoke, and dreams, and any, maybe, clues to what you were to do afterwards. So yeah, just tell us a bit about your background.




Lauren Sisler:

Thank you so much for this opportunity to join you all. I love the podcast, and just love your mission and vision as well for helping others to overcome some of those obstacles that, obviously, stand in the way of our lives. And we're all faced with them in one way, shape, or form. And I'm just thankful for this opportunity to be a voice in this space. And yeah, you talk about Virginia, which I happen to be in Virginia right now. I live in Birmingham, Alabama full-time. But I was very fortunate to be visiting family, as I've got life things happening, including a baby on the way later this June. And so the opportunity to be here, flooded by the beautiful mountains of southwest Virginia, is always amazing for me, and just love to come back home, because this is a place that is close to my heart, that I will always call home, no matter where the TV world takes me, which has taken me all over the place in the last several years, more than a decade of just traveling, bebopping around, dancing around the country.

But nevertheless, growing up in Roanoke, Virginia, I was very fortunate to live in a family. It was my mom and my dad, Lesley and Butch. His real name was George, but for some reason he hated the name George, so he went by Butch. I'm not really sure why, could never figure it out. His dad was also named George, and his dad hated the name George, and he went by Preston, the middle name. So nevertheless, we all come up with something. But yeah, my mom and dad, Lesley and Butch Sisler, and then my brother Allen, who is two-and-a-half years older than me. And we grew up in Roanoke, Virginia, as mentioned. And we were just that crazy busy family, always on the go, always doing different things throughout life.

Sports was at the center of all that. Sports was definitely the flagstone in the family, where we wake up in the morning, and Saturdays it was college football, Sundays we had Washington on the TV, so there you go. That was always the big thing. It was always the big rivalry between Washington and Dallas. So, certainly enjoyed watching the NFL as well. And then NASCAR was really big in our family, so we used to go to the racetrack a lot, whether it be Martinsville, which is the closest track to our home in Roanoke. Sometimes we'd go to Charlotte. But even cooler is that my brother was actually on a pit crew at the NRV Speedway, the New River Valley Speedway here. And so we spent a lot of Saturdays going out there, setting up our lawn chairs on these cement slabs, watching my brother down there in the pits do his thing, and getting to watch the stock cars race there at the quarter mile track.

So sports was definitely embedded in our family at a very young age. For me, it was kind of that good American family, living the dream. I feel like my parents were very supportive of my brother and I through our athletics. And he was a three sport athlete, my brother was football, baseball, and basketball, and kind of played those sports when he was younger. And then me over here, the gymnast, gymnastics was a sport that caught on very early, at an early age for me. And that really just became my sport, and something I thrived in, I grew up in, and really just became dedicated to it over the years. And so that really just became my main focus throughout elementary school, junior high, and high school, on into college.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, obviously we'll get to your crucible in college, but it sounds like, as listeners are hearing your story, it almost sounds... I think there's no such thing as a perfect upbringing, a 10 out of 10, but I don't know if it was a 9.9 or felt like it was... Did it feel like it was pretty good? As you look back, I don't know if there were any clues to some of the storm clouds that were to come, but it sounds somewhat idyllic as we're listening to you?




Lauren Sisler:

Very much so. And I think that's probably the hardest part as we dive into that part of the story, is that you're young. When we're young, let's be real, we're naive, and parents are really good at sweeping stuff under the rug, making things seem great and perfect, and everything's fine and well. And I will say there were a lot of those moments. There were a lot of those years. My parents, I would say, were just super supportive of my brother and I. My mom worked part-time most of her life so that she could take care of my brother and I, get us to our athletic events, was very involved. And so she really sacrificed a lot, because I think she really took being a mother to heart. She wanted to be a wife and a mother, and she made those sacrifices. And maybe she wasn't making the large paychecks, but it was enough to be able to help us and not have to put us in childcare situation throughout our adolescence and into teenage years. So with that being said, I think that everything on the outside, seemingly, was perfect.




Warwick Fairfax:

It seemed like life was unfolding pretty well. You're a freshman at Rutgers, doing gymnastics. It was probably a new adventure, different place than where you grew up, and life seemed pretty good. And I think you came home one time... Well actually, before you came home, just talk about that freshman year, and life changed forever during that freshman year, which, going into that freshman year, you felt like continuation of what was a great life. Gymnastics in college, great college. So just talk about how that life pivoted for you then.




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah, so going to Rutgers, obviously eight hours from home, it wasn't super close, but enough for my parents to jump in the car and come visit, and for me to get home, jump on a train or a plane. Going to Rutgers, yes, let's be real, bit of a culture shock going from Southwest Virginia to New Jersey. And I had to remind people as soon as I stepped foot on campus and opened my mouth, people are like, "You're not from around here, are you?" And I'm like, "Oh my God, what gave that away?" And I think my accent has probably gotten a little better being in the broadcasting world, because I've had to really learn to enunciate things a little better, and not maybe have as much of a drawl. But I do think the Southern will never be taken out of me, that's for sure. And especially now being in Alabama, some people argue that Virginia's not really the South, but I consider Virginia very much the South, especially this part of the state.

But nevertheless, it was a bit of a culture shock, but it was so exciting. As you mentioned, the world is right there in front of me. It's an extension of high school. Yes, there were challenges. Yes, there were major adjustments, like any student experiences going from high school to college, and all of the classwork and dedication. And, of course, and the training in the gym. Gymnastics becomes a full-time job, right? We're training 20 hours a week on top of our schoolwork. So you're adding that extra 20 hours of work on top of your grades and your curriculum. And so it was certainly an adjustment, but I was living the dream. I had dreamed of earning that college scholarship for so many years, and here I was living it out, and trying to navigate this new world.

And I think the one thing that I point out to people is that even when I went off to Rutgers, my relationship with my parents did not change. We talked every single day, burn up those phone lines. Because it was important to me to have that relationship with my parents, and they were very invested in me as well, in my career at Rutgers. And so my mom knew everything there was to know about gymnastics. So she was kind of the Gary in this group, right? So she was the one that knew everything there was to know; every single skill, a play by play, she wanted to know it all. So every day we had conversations, "I'm working on this new skill, this combination." And there was a lot of excitement, and that was an excitement for her.

And then my father, truth be told, he knew a good bit about gymnastics, but he was one of those that just showed up and cheered really loud. And for him, it was always a struggle. I go back and watch these old VHS tapes of me competing, and you just hear him whistling and screaming, "Yeah, let's go Lauren!" And he'll commentate. But the best part about it is he'll be like, "Okay, Lauren. Lauren's about to go on the balance beam." And yet I'm on the bars. He just never could get it straight. And I don't understand. And I'm like, "Dad, what are you doing?" His commentary is quite comical when I look back at it.

But nevertheless, we still had that close relationship. And so it really helped to have that support, especially when you transition from high school to college, and it's definitely a shock to the system. And so I felt like I was still very rooted back at home with my family and my parents. And so as we talk about getting into that second semester at Rutgers, we were about to approach midterms. I'd been studying for those exams. And this particular night on March 23rd, 2003, called my parents like I always did. Picked up the phone. My mom was excited to hear about this new combination I was working on on bars. And then I had talked to my dad briefly, and he had just celebrated his 52nd birthday. And I remember him telling me that he was so proud of me, and to keep working hard. And that was the end of our conversation. It was like most, 10, 15, 20 minutes. We hung up the phone, said our goodbyes, said our I love yous.

And I remember just setting my alarm clock that night thinking nothing of anything. Life is great, life is wonderful. I'm going to go in and crush these midterm exams hopefully, and that'll be it. And so I set my alarm clock, drifted off to sleep, and then woke up to the phone ringing. And of course, looking outside, I realized it was dark out. So that, of course, alarmed me a little bit. And then looked at the clock and it was just after 3:00 AM. And as I went to go grab the phone on the receiver that was sitting on my desk, I look at the caller ID and it said "Home", and that's when I knew something had to be wrong, because it's the middle of the night. Why are Mom and Dad calling me?

And so when I answered the phone, with hesitation, my father on the other end said, "Lauren, I need to talk to your brother." Well, my brother, at the time, was stationed in Norfolk, Virginia in the Navy. He was a parachute rigger there. And I could tell that my dad was in distress, and I didn't know if something was wrong with Dad, I didn't know something was wrong with Mom, if it was my brother, and I was just like, "Okay." I said, "Dad, what's wrong?" And he said, "Lauren, I just need to talk to your brother." So he wasn't giving me any information. And so I found my brother's phone number, recited it back to him. My dad said, "I'll call you back as soon as I talk to your brother." And I hung up the phone.

And then no more than 30 seconds goes by and I get a call back from my dad, and he was on the other end, and he said, "Lauren, your mom died." And I was just very caught off guard by it because, again, I had just talked to my mom. My mom's 45 years old, it's the middle of the night. And all of a sudden I'm thinking, "What do you mean, Mom died? This makes no sense to me." And I kind of begged him to explain, give me an explanation.

And in many ways, I think I was trying to almost wake myself up, like, "Wake up, wake up, this has got to be a nightmare. It's got to be a nightmare." He said, "Lauren, I can't explain it now. I need you to get on the next plane you can, and I'll be at the airport to pick you up in Roanoke." And so, of course, I just was shocked, I was stunned. And then I go into panic mode, "Okay, I got to get stuff together, what am I going to do?"

But as I'm kind of taking in this information I had just learned, my roommate even had woken up from her deep sleep, comes running over as she sees me slunk over on the floor crying, and starts shaking me and says, "Lauren, Lauren, wake up. You're having a nightmare." So she thought I was, in fact, having a nightmare. And, unfortunately, it was a nightmare, but it was reality. And so, as you can imagine, being an 18 year old suddenly just trying to piece together this news that I had received, and then ultimately just wanting to do nothing more than to get home and be with my father. That's all I wanted in that time, in that moment, is just to be home, and to get home to my dad.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, you got on the plane, and you landed in Roanoke, but yet, I guess, the unexpected was to continue. What happened next when you got to Roanoke?




Lauren Sisler:

So, when my plane touched down and I run outside, I'm expecting my dad to be there. And I'm looking everywhere and I don't see him. And so I stand out there for a few minutes, and then next thing you know, I see a Jeep Cherokee pull up, and out jumps my uncle and my cousin, Justin. And, of course, I'm very confused at this point, because I'm thinking, "All right, my dad was supposed to be here." But then my brain just starts jogging all these things. "He's at the hospital, he's probably still on his way. They didn't want me to sit here and have to wait forever. So, because my uncle and my cousin both lived in Roanoke, so it was much closer to the airport, my father had over an hour drive..." So, I'm kind of rationalizing all these thoughts in my mind, in this matter of seconds.

And then they get in the car and we start driving. And at this point, it was just tears. Nobody really said anything. And then finally, as we start driving, I said to my Uncle Mike, I said, "Uncle Mike," I said, "I just want to see my dad. Where's my dad?" And then he pulled the car off the side of the road, as you take the exit ramp back onto the Interstate. And I just remember feeling that gravel underneath the car crunching as he put it into park. And he turned around and he looked at me and he said, "Lauren, I'm sorry, but your dad's passed away too."




Warwick Fairfax:

It's hard to know - to begin to know - how to, obviously, process, or... Because at this point, you didn't know what had happened. You knew they'd passed, but you didn't know why, how. It almost felt like, as bad as that was, it felt like it got worse, in a sense. How could it be worse than two parents passing? Well, I don't know. Listening to your story a bit, it feels like it did. How could it have gotten worse? But yet, you were to learn how it happened. I don't know how you process any of what you went through, but is that fair? In some ways, it got worse the more you learned?




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah, and I think the stages of grief really have an interesting way of taking us in. And I think, for me, it was that initial shock. But then, to your point, now you've got to pick all these pieces up. You have to lay both your parents to rest, who just passed away five hours apart from each other. You have zero answers as to what happened. And you're just sitting here wondering, "Okay, what next? How am I going to do this? I'm 18 years old, I don't have a penny to my name. I've got nothing. What am I going to do?" And I think it's all these questions, and it's this shock, and it's this pain, and there's this grief, and, in many ways, anger.

But those emotions don't really hit you all at once, right? It starts out with almost that breathlessness. "Did I just hear this right? Is this possible? What just happened?" And then, as time goes on, days, weeks, months, and even years, you start to transcend into that grief stage and then that anger, the, "Why, why, why, why, why? How did this happen?" And then, to your point, Warwick, is that I think the hardest part is, is that there were so many questions as to how this could happen to the two of my parents, so suddenly, with literally not much information to go off of.

And so with this process, they have to do toxicology reports, and they have to do the death certificates, and I'll figure all this out. Well, what's crazy about it is the coroner's office has 90 days to complete this process. So we, as a family, sit here for 90 days, just wondering. "Okay, what was it? What happened?"

But behind closed doors, conversations were already being had with my Uncle Mike and my Auntie Linda, my mom's sister, my Uncle Mike's married to my Auntie Linda. And those conversations were already being had, about what possibly could have happened, what they found at the house, what were some clues, what were some things that were outstanding? And those conversations were happening, but they weren't really happening around me. And I think part of that was kind of protecting me, part of that was my young, naive self, not wanting to associate with, maybe, what could potentially be the truth surrounding what happened to them. And so really my family, especially my Aunt and Uncle, who really were picking up the pieces in this moment, just kind of navigated things on their own, and went behind the scenes, took care of what they needed to, and then ultimately just loved me and my brother through it, and helped us get through each day one day at a time.

And so really, where you talk about things getting worse, as you unpack what ultimately happened to my parents, after 90 days, those toxicology reports would reveal that both of my parents died of fentanyl overdoses. So both my parents had been going to a pain management doctor here in Roanoke, Virginia. They had been dealing with a lot of chronic pain. My mom had degenerative disc disease, which required multiple surgeries over the course of few years. My father had chronic back pain. My father also had served in the military, and had struggled with some depression and PTSD. And you also asked about there being signs. My father also struggled with alcohol much of his life, but that was something that very much, as children, seemed to be under control.

And so there was really no correlation in my mind that my parents could have a drug problem, that they could be experiencing substance misuse with the prescription drugs that they were taking, because prescription drugs, they're given to you. You take them. They're supposed to help you. They were what got my parents out of bed in the morning. They were what helped them to survive, in my mind. So those toxicology reports came back right at the 90-day mark. And, believe it or not, my Aunt, as soon as we got the call from the coroner's office that they were ready, we went straight over to the coroner's office, pulled up the car. My Aunt asked me if I wanted to go in with her. I said no. Sat in the car. It was blazing hot that day, I remember the air conditioning was just blowing. She goes out, she comes back, she goes into the office, comes back out with a manila envelope, looks at me and hands it to me, and says, "Do you want to open it and read it?" And I said no.

And so I threw it in the floorboard and that was it. Wanted nothing to do what was written on those pieces of paper, because I felt like if I read those pieces of paper, if I saw what ultimately killed my parents, took my parents' life, then that would have to be the truth of what happened to my parents. And I would have to acknowledge the truth, and I would have to live my life knowing that they died of overdoses, instead of this sugar-coated story that I had manifested and created in my mind, and was telling people all along. And my entire story would now be corrupt, if I saw this piece of paper that stated that my parents died of fentanyl overdoses.




Warwick Fairfax:

When did you open that manila envelope? Or when did your aunt and uncle tell you what happened?




Lauren Sisler:

So, 10 years was actually when I opened up that manila envelope. Which, when you think about it, how one person can go 10 years and just ignore something for so long? 10 years. And again, I would tell this sugar-coated story to people, because I went right back to Rutgers within 10 days. I'm back at Rutgers, people want to know what happened. They try to do it in a loving way. They're curious. And so when it would get brought up, I would say, "Well, Mom died of respiratory failure, Dad died of a heart attack." Because that sounded a lot better to me than, "Mom died of a fentanyl overdose, and Dad died of a fentanyl overdose."

And I was able to literally, in my mind, with respiratory failure, that just sounded so much better than overdose or addiction. And then with my father, the heart attack part, he had heart issues, and high cholesterol, and this and that. And so I was like, "Well, heart attack because he must have been heartbroken because of losing my mom. And his heart stopped." And that was all justified in my mind, even though he too ingested a lethal amount of fentanyl, just hours after my mom did. And so I literally was justifying this in my mind, so much so that I started to believe it. I literally walked through life for several years concocting this story, and I pretty much spoke it into existence. I knew, in my heart, that neither one of my parents intentionally took their lives that day. Both overdoses were ruled accidental.

But the bottom line is there's no way for us to know what led them into those moments. What led them to say, "I'm going to take this fentanyl." Because my mom was prescribed fentanyl, but it's in a pain patch, and it's intended to be worn, a 72-hour time release. Eventually she couldn't... That wasn't enough. So the doctor dropped that from 72 hours to every 48 hours, she was swapping out the pain patch. But as a pain patch is released into your bloodstream and your system, that's not technically lethal. But what ends up happening is my parents put those pain patches in the freezer, and they began to suck on the pain patches. And ultimately, that gives you just the immediate high that you, unfortunately, don't know how much you're actually getting. And both of my parents had obviously gotten so deep down this road of addiction, that they felt this might be the only way that they can actually feel better, or stave off some of that addiction pain that they were feeling.

You mentioned a book on the horizon. There's been some discoveries that have happened, because even almost 20 years after my parents passed away, there were still so many black holes. So many things that we did not know as a family, so many things that we did not understand, that have been uncovered in such a beautiful way, that I could just tell you that it's amazing, this journey and process. Where I'm at now, 20 years after they passed away, to where I was even just five years ago or 10 years ago, it's truly been a beautiful journey. And as sad and tragic as it has been, it has also been so enlightening. And many of those questions that we had, there have been answers that have followed, even 20 years later.




Gary Schneeberger:

That makes me think of, on the YouTube version of this show, I always begin in talking about crucible experiences; traumas, tragedies, setbacks, failures. I always begin by saying, "Those things didn't happen to you, they happened for you. They don't define you, they refine you." And it sounds like what you're describing is that experience. Is that fair? That that was kind of your experience as you researched, as you understood, with the journalist's skill of knowing how to research, did that feel like it was doing that to you, that it was refining you in some way? That these things, painful as they were, didn't happen to you, you were able to pivot a bit, and see that they happened for you, to understand and then help others? Is that a fair statement?




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah, I think that's a great perspective, Gary, because I do think that has been one of the biggest lessons I've learned through my personal journey. But as I've transcended into sports broadcasting, right? Because my job as a sports broadcaster is to ask questions and tell stories. So when I ask those questions, I'm literally digging under the surface to learn more about an individual, and learn more about their history, where they came from, and ultimately, what experiences they've undergone that have ultimately shaped who they are today.

And I think that when you talk about refining things, we go through things in life. And in those moments we wonder, "Why me? How is this possible? How could this happen to my two best friends? The two people that are loved by so many, we're a church-going family, we are so close and so tight, and everyone loves my parents, and they were loved by so many and they loved with their whole hearts. And how could such a terrible thing happen to such great people?" Those questions come up a lot, because we all experience hardships, we all experience adversity, we all experience challenges, and it's easy to get caught in that continuum of the, "Why me?"

But now looking back, as I reflect on this journey, I realize that that refinement has really happened, and it's taken time. It's been a long journey and a long process. But as I'm here today, I realize now that it has been revealed to me that, as I stand here, that my story has meaning and it has purpose. And that I'm so thankful that I've been able to see that through this evolution and this process, going from being this 18 year old, completely clueless, how am I going to survive this? To now 20 years later, having this platform to be able to share other people's stories.

Because I see stories are what unite us, it's what brings us together, and it ultimately shapes us into who we are, and gives us almost this credibility to be able to go to someone else and say, "I went through this thing, and I know you're going through something similar. I want to help you get through this, and this is how." Because I think that's where inspiration, encouragement, and hope all come from, and I think it's passed along from one person to the next, to the next, to the next.




Warwick Fairfax:

Prescription drugs is a horrendous thing, and they didn't take it by choice. They took it because they were in terrible pain. But how did you get through that, to the point that you're at now? It seems, almost, probably hard for a lot of people to believe. How in the world could Lauren come back from that, and not let that define and destroy her life?




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah. That's been something I've also been trying to uncover over the years. And I will tell you this. As I've tried to understand that a little bit more, because one question I do get, as I go on the public speaking circuit, is that very same question. "How did you do it? How did you get through it? How did you not turn to substance yourself to cope with those things?" I'm sitting here thinking to myself, "Well, I'd love to have a straightforward answer on this, and I don't think there's any one right or wrong answer to it." And really, maybe that manuscript that says, "This is exactly, piece by piece, how I did it."

But I will say that I have uncovered a lot of those questions with my therapist. I've seen a therapist... Once my parents passed away, when I'd gone back to school, they had provided me with a therapist to navigate some of these tumultuous times, and then I would pull back from it and, "I'm good!" And then I'd kind of slip back into, "Okay, maybe I need to start going to see somebody." But really I would say in these last several years, prior to the pandemic, I started meeting with somebody in Birmingham. And because I'm where I'm at now, I'm truly at a point where it's not so much about healing, and it is very much about healing, but it's more about understanding the how and the why. And I'm so curious, especially as a reporter, because I go into reporter mode, and I start asking these questions, and I now almost feel invigorated, exonerated in many ways. I think about the shackles of shame have finally just kind of ripped off of me.

But now I want to understand why. And I don't think I had the maturity nor the experience nor the healing to be able to ask those same questions maybe 10 years ago. Because I didn't really want to know why. But now I'm at that point where I'm like, "Okay, how did I do this? And why did I do this?" And it's so cool to walk through that process, and understand why I'm where I'm at. And I think a lot of it became the compartmentalization that I was able to create for myself, this window of tolerance. And I think some of it probably stems from gymnastics; the competitive spirit, the competitive nature, the focus mentality, "Okay, focus, focus, focus." So I was able to just focus in on things, and almost eliminate those outside distractions, those outside voices, the outside noise. And so it was almost like rinse and repeat. "Okay, I'm going through this thing. Focus, focus. All right, get through it. Okay, I overcame that challenge. All right, next!" And so a lot of it was the compartmentalization and being able to do that.

But when I think about that, I'm always curious to know what allows us to have that innate ability to create that window of tolerance for ourselves? And I think that's something I've been trying to uncover and to recognize. Because, let's be real, life is hard, and I certainly don't place myself in any sort of category as to having superhuman powers to be able to just overcome this thing. But I do think that, in many ways, that my parents... Were they perfect? No. But I do feel like they equipped me with certain things that helped me later in life to navigate some of these challenges. And then I also think the sport of gymnastics, paired with that, allowed me to do so. And then I just think that sort of determination and that work ethic to say, "Okay, I'm going to push past this."

And then ultimately I have to say I dove into my faith. And I think that's where a lot of this has really grown exponentially. Because instead of leaning out in the early phases of when all of this happened, I really leaned out, and kind of leaned back and said, "Ooh, I got this. I don't need your help. I'm good!" Then to realize that, "Wait, why don't I lean in? And utilize these resources, lean into my faith, lean into God, lean into the people around me, and say, "Hey, I'm going to accept your help. You're here for me. I've got to stand on my own two feet and take that first step forward. But let's hold hands and let's walk through this together.""




Gary Schneeberger:

I'm glad you brought up your faith, because 20 minutes ago in this conversation, this came to me as you were talking, the difficulty of facing the truth that you had. And I think of John 8:31-32, "the truth will set you free."




Lauren Sisler:

Yep.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's exactly what we're talking about here, in the story of Lauren Sisler. The truth has set you free, and not just... Although for your own freedom and your own wellbeing, but the freedom to then transfer freedom, transfer healing to others, and that is a beautiful thing. "Beauty from ashes," to go back to the Bible in that case. That's the summary of your story, I think.




Lauren Sisler:

I love that too. And you use the word "transfer", that's such a good word, because it is like taking my experience. And one thing I do encourage people, and I think it's really hard, because a lot of times people want to make comparisons. I'll go speak at an event, and someone will say, "Well, I went through this, and certainly not as bad as what you've been through..." But I stop them right there, because your experience is your experience, right? You've gone through your challenges, that I can't even begin to know what those might feel like to you, and vice versa. But ultimately, we experience similarities, we experience similar things, and trauma is trauma. Tragedy is tragedy. Shame is shame. No matter what led you to that emotion, to that feeling, to whatever that thing that is gripping you, you might have been led down that path in a different way, but ultimately, you're experiencing that same emotion.

And I love that terminology of transferring that, because being able to transfer my life experiences and what I've experienced to help you maybe walk through your shame... Because shame comes in so many different shapes, sizes, experiences, right? And I think that whether you've experienced addiction, or loss because of addiction, not everybody knows what that feels like, but you've walked through shame in some sort of way. Whether it's lost a job, made a poor choice, wish you could literally hit the rewind button and erase something that you've done in your life. We all walk through the shadows of shame. And I think that's what's really great about this podcast, specifically, and really just this opportunity to use our stories to empower other people, to also walk out of those shadows of shame, and undo those shackles, and say, "Look, I don't have to be shackled to this anymore. I can be free, if I can only stand in my truth." And I think that if we can encourage people to stand in their truth, and own every piece of their story, they're going to be set free in ways they never even imagined possible.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's so well said, Lauren. I want to pick up on some strands that you said, because I think there are some important things you've said that can really help people. Certainly one of the things that I was blessed by on this podcast, we had a guy, David Charbonnet, that was a Navy SEAL, that became a paraplegic in a parachuting training accident. And I mentioned to him, "Gosh, what I went through, losing this 150-year-old family business in a $2.25 billion takeover, big news in Australia, and lots of nasty editorial cartoons and all the rest..." And in a moment of tremendous grace, and he is also a person of faith, he said, "Warwick, your worst day is your worst day. Basically, it's not a competition."

And that was so generous, because to me, objectively, what he went through, being a paraplegic was objectively, to me, feels like a lot worse than what I went through. But pretty much everybody we've had on our podcast has had that same attitude. And we've had paraplegics, quadriplegics-




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah, I love that.




Warwick Fairfax:

... victims of abuse, victims of incredible things, and they have this spirit of generosity.

But there's another strand that you mentioned I think is really important. I had some things I had to understand, how certainly family members behaved the way they did, and as I've understood what made them who they were, and made them like they were, and the choices they made or what happened, it made it somewhat, if not significantly, easier to deal with, as I understood what happened and why. And understanding, at least in my case, made it easier to forgive. Like, "Okay, I get it. They went through trauma, they were this way and that way, and it makes sense now." It doesn't mean things are necessarily right. So those are important lessons, and I think it can be helpful to all of us, is counseling, certainly from our perspective, faith, but just understanding. Understanding helps breed freedom. Does that make sense? Just because that's what I'm hearing in your story, are some of the clues that it can help others.




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah, I love that. The understanding piece, I think, is so critical here. And there is that level of healing. And you talk about forgiveness, right? Because there was that time where I was very angry. Angry at God, and also some level of anger at my parents, of how did this happen? How did it get out of control? How did we not know? Why did you not cry for help? And I hear this time and time again when people come and share their personal stories with me, of just, "My mom or dad is going through addiction." Or, "They won't get clean, they won't get sober for me." Or perhaps they've been incarcerated due to drug use. Or anything outside or inside that realm. And there is that anger that often occurs.

And I do think that understanding allows us to have forgiveness, which I also think is part of that whole equation of setting us free. Having a better understanding, while I might not ever understand or know the exact reasons for why the challenges for my parents continued to mount, as it pertained to their prescription drug use, and then, ultimately, their financial crisis that just came crumbling down all at one time, there were a lot of things, I think, that led down that pathway. But in understanding their story, understanding their struggle, I don't love them any less. If anything, I feel like I embrace them even more.

And I think that really came to me when I hit that 10-year mark, opened up those toxicology reports, decided it was time to start sharing their story publicly. And as I did that, there was specifically a handful of people that... Even my closest friends in school didn't even know how my parents died. My best friend didn't even know how my parents died for several years.

But one thing that came of it, which I thought was just so cool, was that even my dad's colleagues at his work, so he used to work at the Salem VA Medical Center as a biomedical technician. And there were so many people that just loved my dad, adored my dad, showed up to the funeral, and I might have not known them personally, but they stayed connected through myself and my brother through Facebook and different social media platforms. And when they saw that story 10 years later, saw me opening up and talking about it, I received an overwhelming response.

And instead of the fears being validated, that people would judge my parents, because that's why I withdrew from it for so long, instead it was, "Wow, I can't believe that you went through this. I can't believe your parents were going through this. We loved your parents so much. We wish we would've known, maybe we could've done something to help them. But your parents were such wonderful people, and they did everything they could to fight for you and your brother, and to give you and your brother everything they could, even despite all the pain and all the turmoil they were going through, both physically and financially." And then, "I now feel I have peace of mind, knowing what took their lives that day."

So in many ways, I was able to give others, that cared and loved for my parents so much, some peace through that understanding. And I felt like that was a gift. And even though that gift didn't come for many years, I felt like that was a gift that was bestowed on me. And then ultimately, I was able to give that to others who did love and care for my parents so deeply.




Gary Schneeberger:

In football, there's a clock. And in football, toward the end of the game, there's the two-minute warning. And in this conversation, knowing that the two people who aren't me on this call have appointments coming up, we're going to call the two-minute warning right now, and begin wrapping up before the clock runs out. But before we do that, there's a couple things I want to do with you. One, I want you to know I dressed for the occasion with you. There's my t-shirt, which says, Team Brave.




Lauren Sisler:

Yay!




Gary Schneeberger:

Which I believe you definitely are that, Lauren, you are a...




Lauren Sisler:

Oh, thank you.




Gary Schneeberger:

... a leading player on Team Brave, for sure. And before we get to the clock running out, I'd be remiss if I didn't give you the chance to talk about your book, which is coming up, the timing of your book. And if you can sneak it in at some point, the Sideline Shimmy, if you could just talk about how that's helped you. How that's helped you heal as well. And then we'll turn it back over to Warwick to ask you the final question.




Lauren Sisler:

Well, I so appreciate that. Thank you, I am honored to be part of Team Brave, such an honor. And I'm so glad you dressed up for us, because I know you were just on a really, really awesome, amazing trip. I'm waiting to unpack those details when we've got time, because I know... Ugh, I just can't wait to hear about it. I would just say, as we are winding down in this two-minute warning, I'm so thankful, as we talked about a little bit of the book process. And this was actually something that I started at the beginning of last year, in 2021, and have been working on now for about a year and a half. And it has been quite a process and quite a journey.

And for many years, I've had people say, "Well, you should write a book, you should write a book." And I was just like, "Write a book? I don't have any idea how to write a book. Where to go, what do I do? What do I do with my hands?" And I just was clueless. And it's amazing how the good Lord works, because suddenly people come into your life, and then they plant those seeds, and they say, "Well, I've got someone, I know someone that can help out with this." And so it's been a really cool process of meeting the right people, and working with the right publisher, and soon to be publicist, wink, wink. Nudge, nudge. So, putting the right people in place to help in this process.

And super excited about it, just because so much has been uncovered, and while we never went into it with the intention of it being an investigative piece, it has definitely uncovered so many things and so many details, but more than anything, so many connections and relationships. And there's so much healing that has come from it, and I am so excited to gift that to other people. The perspective that I've received in this process, I think, is truly a gift, and I want to be able to gift that to other people. I want to transfer that to other people, as you said, Gary, through this book. And so I'm really excited about it. And we don't have a specific launch date this moment, but I think we're eyeballing the fall, as I'm knee-deep in football season, because what better time is there, right?

And you mentioned, as we've been batting titles back and forth, and figuring out what is going to be the scope of this book, and what do we want, really, people, when they pick that up, to see, you mentioned the Sideline Shimmy. And with some encouragement from you, and our good friend Darren, and others that have been part of this process, the Sideline Shimmy has taken on a form of its own. And most people will be like, "What in the world is the Sideline Shimmy?"

Well, believe it or not, the Sideline Shimmy was born in 2019, in fact. So as I was working through my career at ESPN, I noticed, quite often, that my nerves were still gripping me, at times. And I'm like, "Okay, I know the content. I know exactly what I'm supposed to say. I know the questions. I know exactly what I'm talking about." And yet my body still has this way of screaming at me, like, "You're standing on a football field in front of 2 million people about to go live!" Okay! I guess it's okay to be nervous, right? Well, how do you combat those nerves? And that's something that I really struggled with, because I'm thinking like, "I'm confident, I'm here, I've earned this opportunity." And yet my body is still throwing me into chaos. And so my central nervous system was taking over.

And with that being said, as the former DJ, DJ Sizzla, music is in my veins. I love to dance, I love to just be free. I can't tell you that I'm a good dancer. But what I started doing was dancing on the sidelines, because really, it helped me to take that nervous, anxious, excited energy, that was paired with adrenaline, that had me going a million miles an hour, helped me to slow down and just soak it all in. And with the dancing, it really just kind of helped me to use that to really just calm the nerves, and really, in many ways, bring me back to the moment.

And so dancing became my thing, and it was something that... What I realized? Never assume the cameras aren't rolling, because this whole dancing thing was assumed that it was before the game kicked off, cameras weren't rolling, nobody's really watching. Oh, by the way, they're always watching. And so these silly dances made their way to my inbox or my cell phone, I'd get blown up with text messages, "Hey, we caught this on camera." And I'm like, "Oh. Okay." So then, of course, I ended up posting these silly things on social media. And I think the coolest part about it is it has turned into something more than I ever imagined it would with the Sideline Shimmy.

But ultimately, I've found so many people finding joy in the Sideline Shimmy. And realizing that everyone can find joy and purpose. And whatever your Sideline Shimmy is might look different than mine, but everyone has a Sideline Shimmy. And so unlocking whatever that Sideline Shimmy is, that gives you joy, that helps you to uncover and unnerve yourself, and to go through life being free and joyous and happy, no matter who's watching, I think is an amazing thing, and it's a gift. And so hopefully through this book, and through this process, I can help other people find their Sideline Shimmy too.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's wonderful, wow. Yeah, I've seen that on YouTube, and it's a lot of fun. So yeah, it's just a little fun, light relief as you're doing your thing as a sports journalist. So it's funny, we've spoken a lot about your story and your parents' story, and not as much about you being a sports journalist, which most people would know you. It's like, "Lauren Sisler, she's on the sidelines at SEC network, and ESPN, and making these insightful comments." So, from what I understand, that's a whole nother discussion, which we don't have too much time to get into. But you're starting out in a small station in Roanoke, and then Virginia, and Alabama, and ESPN. Which is incredible, and you've been very successful.

So just talk about your vision. I have a feeling you view what you do as a sports journalist as more than a job. I'm pretty sure there's a mission behind it. And I think you've hinted at what that mission is to you. And more broadly than just that mission, talk about the mission you have in your speaking and your book. And I love some of the things you say about finding meaning and purpose, and fall in love with your story. You have a choice. There's clearly a very strong mission you have, and being a sports journalist is part of that. So just talk about those things. Your mission as a sports journalist, your mission more generally about the power of telling a story, and...




Lauren Sisler:

The one thing that I have found myself doing, and really it has sprouted up in recent years. When I step foot on that football field, and that national anthem plays, because that's always the time where everybody pauses what they're doing, warmups are over, guys have gone back in the locker room, and now everyone stands. And that is the time where I stand in my thoughts in that moment, and I look up to the sky, and I look to God, and I look to my parents, and I say, "Give me this opportunity to go out here, give me the right words to say. May a story, may an event, may something that happens tonight, influence and impact the lives of other, even if just one life, in a positive way." And so that's always my hope and my goal when I step foot out on that football field, is to give someone some encouragement, some inspiration, a story of hope, something that they may be able to take through their lives.

Then of course, I thank the good Lord above, and my mom and dad, and I have that conversation with them, and it's just a beautiful moment to be able to spend, as my nerves and that excitement and all the adrenaline and the pageantry that's about to happen around us, as those players get ready to run out of that tunnel. And so it really is a special moment. And so that's really become a vision and a mission for me when I step foot on that football field. And I've discovered it's more than the wins and the losses, it's more than just a game, right? It's so much more than that. And that's where I feel so thankful for this gift of being able to use my voice to share stories that have so much meaning, so much purpose.

And that's where the tagline, as you mentioned, "fall in love with your story" has really, the root of that, has come from. Because I want to encourage all to fall in love with their story, undo those shackles of shame, because for so many years, I harbored this shame, and realized that I'm not going to allow this shame to define me, just like it didn't define my parents. My parents aren't defined by how they died, but by how they lived their lives. And now I want to stand in that truth and carry that same ideology with me. And recognizing, "Okay, you know what? I'm not going to be defined by shame anymore, and I'm going to use this as an opportunity to help other people, and to inspire and encourage other people."

So ultimately, when I undid the shackles of shame and fell in love with my story, I wanted to give that to other people, transfer that to other people, as Gary said, and help them to also fall in love with their story. And so that really has become my goal and mission in the sports world, as a sports broadcaster. And beyond that, when I step foot on stage and share my personal and professional journey, and words of encouragement, and ultimately, give people a lens of hope and inspiration.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word on a subject has been spoken, and Lauren Sisler has just spoken it. If this microphone wasn't so expensive, I would drop it.




Lauren Sisler:

Mic drop! Ooh!




Gary Schneeberger:

It's a mic drop moment. I don't want to have to buy a new one. So listener, until we're together next time, please remember that we do understand that crucible experiences are painful. We know, Lauren and Warwick talked about the pain that they have gone through in their own crucible experiences. But you also heard there's a way out of that pain, there's a way beyond that pain. Embracing your story, learning to love your story. I love that concept. Learn to love your story, and learn the lessons, as well, of your crucible, because when you do learn the lessons of them, and apply them, and move forward, your crucible experience is not the end of your story. It was not the end of Lauren Sisler's story. It can be the beginning of a new story, as it was for Lauren, that will lead you to a final destination that's the most rewarding of all, and that is a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond the Crucible. Visit our website, beyondthecrucible.com, to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start? Our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

A new day. The sun will come up. Hope. Things will get better. These are beliefs and emotions we all long to experience when we’ve been through a crucible. It’s not easy to get there, but in this episode we aim to help you move in that direction. Warwick discusses in detail his new blog at BeyondTheCrucible.com about the four things he wishes he’d known when he went through his darkest time … to help you get through yours.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. It would've been helpful if somebody had told me or if I'd read somewhere, grieving is a natural part of the process. Yes, the grief won't completely go away, but it'll become more manageable. There'll be a scar rather than an open wound. This whole aphorism, this too shall pass. There will be a new day. The sun will come up. I know it may be hard to believe. And that wouldn't have just stopped all the pain instantly, but it would've given me some hope that this is part of the process, that things will get better.




Gary Schneeberger:

A new day. The sun will come up. Hope. Things will get better. Those are beliefs and emotions we all want to experience when we've been through a crucible. It's not easy to get there, as you just heard Warwick say, but keep listening. He's about to guide you through the four things he wishes he'd known when he went through his darkest time to help you get through yours.

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Warwick and I talked this week about his latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com, in which he unpacks all four of those points. You'll learn that it's okay to give yourself permission to grieve, that feeling broken doesn't mean you're worthless, that you are not defined by your worst day, and that a small step can be a defining moment in your life of significance. The upshot of it all, the bottom of the pit where so many of us find ourselves after setback and failure find us, does not have to be our permanent address.

That blog at beyondthecrucible.com is, and we just titled this, this is very exciting, this is hot off the presses, as two old newspaper guys, we can say that, Warwick, Four Things I Wish I Knew in my Darkest Time. If you've listened to the show for any period of time at all that Warwick has had indeed, a dark time, some time darker than others. The takeover that didn't work out of his family media company. We'll talk about that. But we'll talk about, more importantly than the details, we have to set the details of what that trial was, but then we'll talk about how he found his way to triumph. And that's those four points that he wishes he knew when he was in that dark moment, Warwick. So let's just level set for folks, what was that dark moment? I know you love to relive this all the time.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's kind of like that movie, what was it, Groundhog Day with Bill Murray and Andie MacDowell. And I don't know if it's a late '80s, early '90s movie. And yeah, he relives the same day over and over again. If you haven't seen it, it's very funny. So we're going to be doing a version of Groundhog Day here.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. But the non-comedic version of Groundhog Day.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't funny. Yeah. Not when you're living through your own crucible. So basically just to give folks a bit of a picture of what the darkest time was, the backdrop to it was the 1987 $2.25 billion takeover of my family's 150 year old media business, founded by John Fairfax. Strong person of faith. Became a massive company with newspapers, TV, magazines, radio. As we'll get into, I prepared my whole life to be in this business. And as I was coming back from Harvard Business School in '87, my dad died earlier that year. He was in his 80s at the time. I was from his third marriage. That precipitated some instability in the stock market. Stock market price rose. Company thought the company was in play. I, like my parents, thought the company was not being well managed and wasn't being run along the ideals of the founder.

So when my youthful naivety, a few months after graduating from business school, I launched this $2.25 billion takeover. Things pretty much went wrong right from the start. Other family members sold out. They didn't really believe in me and my vision. Didn't want to be in a company controlled by a 26 year old. October '87, stock market crash hurt our asset sales. Three years later, Australia gets in a big recession. And newspapers are very cyclical. And so in late 1990, December 1990, the company had to file for bankruptcy. So that, believe it or not, is a very brief Cliff Notes version of what happened.




Gary Schneeberger:

I love, not in the sense of this makes me happy, but I love the way that you expressed all of this in the blog that we're talking about that's at beyondthecrucible.com. You end one paragraph by saying, "I was not in a good place." You just described that. I was not in a good place. You begin the next paragraph, and in fact set this one sentence aside in its own paragraph, "I was in the pit of despair." So pit of despair is not a drive-by term. That's a deeply felt term. Why did it feel like, why was it a pit of despair that you found yourself in after the takeover failed?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's funny, some people might think, oh, it's the money, right? $2.25 billion failure. That's a lot of money. It really wasn't - that wasn't the key issue. It was I felt like I'd let my parents down, my father down, who had died a few years earlier, as I mentioned, in 1987. I felt like I'd caused rifts within the family. Now, they might have sold out at the height of the takeover and got lots of money for selling their shares. But their perspective would be, yeah, but we sold because you forced us to sell. You gave us no option. And so yes, they had money, but their position would be, well, you gave us no choice. So it caused rifts in the family.

It caused fear, if you will, just uncertainty, amongst the 4,000 plus employees. They were used to working for the Fairfax family. They felt safe. They felt like we weren't going to be favoring one party versus another, one political party. They felt like John Fairfax Ltd., the Sydney Morning Herald, the Age, the Financial Review, those are papers they were proud to work with. And so they felt like, after the company had to file for bankruptcy, who's going to own us now? Is it going to be editorial independence? What about our jobs? I mean, it caused tremendous uncertainty, and understandably.

I felt like my whole point of doing the takeover, as I mentioned, was to bring the company back to the ideals of the founder, have it be well managed. And basically what I did helped cause the company leaving family hands. I felt like I let my great-great-grandfather down. And in a sense, if all that, it's almost like a sales line, and wait, there's more. You think that's bad enough, it gets worse.

So the hardest thing for me was I was a person of faith, which happened at a evangelical Anglican church at Oxford. But the founder of the company, John Fairfax, was also a person of faith. So in my misguided naivety and theology, I thought, oh, I know what God's plan is, to resurrect the company in the image of the founder. Therefore, I let God down. Note to listeners, anytime you think you're pretty certain of what God's plan is, that tends to be a recipe for disaster because that's not always the easiest thing to discern.

So it was awful. I mean, my whole life I'd prepared myself to go into this company, undergrad degree at Oxford, like my dad and some other relatives, worked on Wall Street, MBA from Harvard Business School. My whole life, I'd prepared myself to do it. And so I was at a point where, well, what do I do now? I've failed in my purpose for being, I've failed in my purpose for living. What now? What kind of legacy? What kind of impact can I possibly have that's even close to that? So that's why this was so crushing. I let my family down, employees, God down. Yeah, it was just mind numbingly crushing. That's what led me into the pit of the despair. My reason for being on this Earth has gone. There was a plan for my life, and I just obliterated and destroyed it. So yeah, you almost think, well, what's the purpose of even asking the question what's now? Sort of a bit irrelevant, right? It's just - I was just really in the pit of despair without seeing any light at the end of the tunnel.




Gary Schneeberger:

But in the context of this show, my job is to ask another question, so we're all good. In all seriousness, let's sort of back away a little bit from sort of flogging your situation, talking about your situation, and pivot into what the blog talks about. But before we get there, one of the things that's important to understand is that what you've just described, very painful, it's your unique circumstances. But one of the things we say all the time on the show is even though your circumstances of your crucible are different, the emotions are the same. And people who've been on the show had the same kinds of emotions. They've talked about a pit of despair. They've been in that place.

And in fact, one of the things we've done at Beyond the Crucible is commissioned a study in which we surveyed now more than 11,000 people who, of those 11,000 people, 72% have said they have gone through an experience that was so devastating that it changed the trajectory of their lives. Of that group of people, 40% right now are saying that that's still holding them back in some way. These are the folks, Warwick, that you've dedicated Beyond the Crucible to, to help them move beyond their worst day, go from tragedy to triumph. And really when we talk in this blog that you wrote, Four Things I, Warwick Fairfax, Wish I Knew in My Darkest Time, you're extending that to all of our listeners who are in that 72% of people who've had crucibles, that 40% still being held back by them. This is not just your story that you're telling in this blog.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. And that's one of the crazy things is that, all the way back to 2008 when I, as listeners know, gave that talk in church about my story, and I'm thinking how could anybody identify with a kind of former media mogul, if you will, and his challenges? But so many people came up to me in the weeks and months after and said, "Your story was so helpful." And it took me while to understand, well, how could that be?

And I think the answer is part of the human condition is challenges, is tragedy, for some even trauma, more than we would think. And so with over, I don't know, 150 plus podcast episodes, we've had stories of physical challenges. Men and women have become quadriplegics or paraplegics. Victims of abuse, abandonment, business failure, loss of loved ones, divorce. And the crucibles may be different, but that sense of being at the bottom of the pit and feeling like there's no hope and how do I get out of it?

We chatted to a guest just recently, Adam Vibe Gunton. One of the things he said is he suffered from substance abuse. At the bottom of the pit, he felt like it was a bottomless pit. He couldn't see the bottom. He just kept falling and falling. I mean, it's just a horrific thought. It's nice to, okay, at least if you're at the bottom, it may be dark, but at least you have the hope that it can't get worse. But not in his case. That sense of tragedy, my life's over, what do I do now? How can I even think of just getting out of bed in the morning? There's so many people we've had on the podcast, very different stories, but as you often say, the emotions are very similar.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And the blog that we're talking about at beyondthecrucible.com, the blog addresses four specific ways to meet those emotions. As those emotions are roiling around in the head and the heart and the spirit of those who've been through crucibles just like you, I mean, we posed the question, your team posed the question to you, Warwick, what are three or four things you wish you had known when you were going through your crucible experience? Your dark time. Almost called it Your Darkest Hour, but that's too Churchillian for us. So we didn't go there.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, there's a recent movie, I think, called My Darkest Hour or something involving Churchill and 1940 and Battle of Britain stuff. So yeah, indeed.




Gary Schneeberger:

So let's unpack now these four points in your blog that speak directly to some of the most painful emotions people are going through, some of the most painful emotions you were going through. The first one, I mean, this is the starting point of if you had to map out a life of significance after a crucible, the starting point, the starter's pistol is this point. And that's the first point of your blog, give yourself permission to grieve. I suspect that, well, you say it right here. There are all kinds of intense feelings and you didn't really know how to process those. And you wished, looking back, that you had given yourself permission to grieve. How did you process it right after the takeover failed?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, I'm a reflective person, so I was just in pain. Rather than giving myself permission to grieve, I was giving myself permission to self-flagellate, to hate on myself, if you will. So my attitude in life, which is not particularly healthy, is if there's a problem in the world, it's my fault. So I could've, with some degree of justification, say a lot of it was my fault, but look, there were challenging dynamics in the family going back decades before I was born, and rifts and power and money. And yeah, I got some bad advice at certain point from some advisors that maybe weren't as helpful as they could be. Yes, I ignored some good advice. But it was a complex situation.

But rather than giving myself permission to grieve, I just was in almost self-hatred mode. I was just really beating up on myself. And how could I've been so dumb? I had a Harvard MBA. How could I think the family wouldn't sell out? What a stupid decision, mistake. And it was objectively. Why did I ignore the good advisors and get rid of them and listened to the advisors that told me what I wanted to hear? I mean, so many things. Why did I even want to go back to the family business? It would've been better off doing anything else because it was so complicated, and turmoil and friction and factions.

So that's where I was going. But what would've been healthier would've been to give myself permission to grieve, yes, to feel sorrow, maybe get some counseling. Which I had, but years later. I just did not really feel it was okay to feel angry and hurt. And it's like part of the grieving process is giving yourself permission to grieve. And I just really didn't. I just felt so bad about myself, but I didn't really know how to process that. I just didn't know what to do with all the self-anger and frustration. So no, I didn't really give myself permission to grieve. I was just self-hating, which it really wasn't helpful. I wasn't trying to process in a way saying, okay. So I wasn't following a helpful process, put it that way.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, I found a quote about grief and giving ourselves permission to grieve from Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and David Kessler, and they say this, "The reality is that you will grieve forever. You will not get over that loss. You will heal and you'll rebuild yourself around the loss you've suffered. You'll be whole again, but you'll never be the same. Nor should you be the same or should you want to be the same." That seems to be a pretty accurate assessment of what you've been through. When you did indeed finally get to that point where you were able to grieve, you were able to give yourself a little bit of, you use the word all the time on the show, Warwick, you were able to give yourself a little bit of grace, and that helped the forward momentum, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

It did. I mean, it would've been helpful if somebody had told me, or if I'd read somewhere, grieving is a natural part of the process. Yes, the grief won't completely go away, but it'll become more manageable. There'll be a scar rather than an open wound. This whole aphorism, this too shall pass. There will be a new day. The sun will come up. I know it may be hard to believe. And that wouldn't have just stopped all the pain instantly, but it would've given me some hope that this is part of the process, that things will get better.




Gary Schneeberger:

I hadn't thought about this till just now, but do you think that Beyond the Crucible, everything that you've tried to do through this podcast, through all that you've done at Beyond The Crucible, your book, all of the offerings that we have, is that a conscious decision, or maybe it was an unconscious decision for you to offer that lifeline to other people who are going through this? I mean, I don't know if you made that determination, like click, I'm going to go help people do this. But what you've described feeling like you didn't have the right to do it, you are extending every week on this show the right for them to do it. That has got to feel rewarding.




Warwick Fairfax:

It absolutely does. I mean, it's one of the key motivations for what I do with Beyond The Crucible is, we'll talk about this later, and we're skipping to point three, but don't let your worst day define you. And we'll talk about that more in a bit. But it's really giving folks hope. When I was reflecting in the weeks and months after that talk in church in 2008, and people telling me, "Hey, your story really helped me." I'm thinking, I know it's going to be painful writing this book because, yes, I talk about inspirational leaders and historical leaders and other members of my family, but the core of it is my story and reliving my most painful days. And it was very painful writing about it. I mean, after two or three hours a day, I was done. I couldn't do anymore. I had to recoup and hopefully find some strength the next day.

So it was painful. But what kept me going is, if this can help one person or more face the crucible they've gone through and find a way to have hope, find a way to bounce back, that was really, it's always been the mission of Beyond the Crucible is to help people in their darkest time, their darkest hour. At the end of pretty much every podcast, I ask a question, something like, for many listeners today may be their worst day. They may be at the bottom of the pit. They may have no hope. They can't see any light at the end of the tunnel. What would a word of hope you would have for somebody who today is their worst day?

Now, why do I ask that question? It's because that's, if you will, my focus of what we do is for people who today may be their worst day. So that is absolutely the animating driving force mission behind what we do. And I mean, it's conscious and subconscious. When I wrote the book, I may not have used those words, but I was thinking I want to help people who've gone through what I've gone through and have hope. Some of it was subconscious, some of it was conscious, but that was always the thought, always the mission.




Gary Schneeberger:

And don't worry about getting out of order. I mean, this is all a big soup of help. We're just putting ingredients in the help soup here as we're going through it. Because we are. It's an interesting discussion because we're dealing with what you went through, but also then how you've leveraged what you went through to help others going through the same thing. So a lot of these things are kind of mixed together, and that's a good thing. Because when you're dealing with something as emotional as a crucible experience, you're going to grab whatever lifeline comes by.

And the second point in the blog is a really good lifeline, I think, that you wished had been extended to you. And that is feeling broken does not mean you are worthless. I'm going to say it again, listener, so you catch it, you make sure you catch it. Feeling broken, like you do after a crucible, in the midst of a crucible, at the bottom of the pit, that does not mean you are worthless. Why did you make this the second point of the blog and how does it speak to your own experience?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, Gary, I was broken. My mission in life, my reason for being on this earth, getting good grades in school, working hard, not wanting to be one of these dilettante kind of rich kids, humility being my highest value, or certainly one of them, Oxford, Wall Street, Harvard Business School. I spent my life serving a mission that I felt was almost like a holy cause, a sacred calling. A family business, newspaper business that plays a role in the nation of Australia. It just felt like this incredible cause that I was born into.

And so when the company went under, I just felt broken, worthless, the reason for me being on this Earth is gone. What was the point of it all? Oxford, Harvard Business School, all the work, all the effort, I just blew it by my stupidity. I mean, there was a book written in that time, late '80s, early '90s, the central premise was Warwick could have had it all. Eventually, it might have taken a few decades, but eventually I would've been the leading shareholder in the family, just in terms of the way inheritance and various things worked out. If only he'd waited, he could have been head of this company. But because of his folly and naivety, he didn't.

And yes, there's some truth in that. But obviously I felt like, oh, the company isn't going to be around, or because of the stupidity in management. It doesn't matter whether my assumptions were right or wrong, but that was my feeling. And so I really felt broken and worthless, and it was very hard to come back from that. I mean, I did. My paradigm shifted a bit. But I felt both those things, that I felt broken and worthless, and that's a terrible feeling.




Gary Schneeberger:

We've talked to many guests. You mentioned Adam Vibe Gunton who said a couple of times that he felt as if he just wanted to die, right? We've had other guests tell us that. That moment of I can't take this anymore. Not just the brokenness, but the emotional, then humiliation of feeling worthless. What was the turnaround for you? How did you get past that feeling? Because we're not having this conversation if Warwick Fairfax didn't get past that feeling.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's very true. I guess, especially since the Evangelical Church at Oxford, I'd been a person of faith. That was late March 1982 for me. So we're now talking the early '90s, I guess my paradigm shifted. I went from God had a plan for my life to resurrect the company in the image of the founder, John Fairfax. I'm a believer, he was a believer. I blew God's plan, which as I mentioned, was the most excruciating part of this whole crucible experience. It was the tip of the spear, if you will, going through my heart.

But what changed is I began to realize, despite my stupidity, and in all fairness, a lot of it was my fault, but not all of it, it was very complicated. A lot of things going back decades as I mentioned. But if God had wanted it to work out, he would have. So God's sovereign will, from my perspective, he has a plan. And you might believe it's God, the creator, however you look at it.

But I also came to realize that God loves us unconditionally, even when we make mistakes, which we all do, God loves us no matter what. So I came to realize God does have a plan for my life. It just may not be the one I thought it was. My hubris, naivety, and youth, but that unconditional love that we are loved because, I think Psalm 139 talks about we're wonderfully and beautifully made. That sense that we have innate worth and value as human beings, it's one thing to realize a proposition. It's another thing for a proposition to work its way through the pain and the agony and the darkness that has worked through your soul.

But over time, it didn't happen like a flash of light, over time, I came to realize that is true. And I've used this image like a man clinging to a mast in a raging storm. I clung to that view that, as human beings, we have innate value. God does have a plan for our lives. And we have inherent worth, and there is a plan out there. I clung to that. And drop by drop, like drops of grace, it began to give me hope. This fundamental change in my thinking, it began to give myself hope.




Gary Schneeberger:

I found a quote that I'm going to steal after we're done, and you may want to steal it yourself. It's a really good quote about this very issue of feeling broken does not mean you're worthless. And that's by Rumi. And the quote is this, "The wound is the place where light enters you." That is something special. That's good. The wound is the place where light enters you, right? And that's what you've just described, Warwick, is that in that wound entered this bedrock belief that grew and grew and grew and grew, that you have inherent value. And led you to create Beyond the Crucible, which lets other people know they also have inherent value. Safe to say that without the brokenness, you could have skipped over, you probably wish you could've skipped over the worthless feeling, but without the brokenness, again, we wouldn't be sitting here having a conversation about Beyond the Crucible, would we?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's profoundly true, Gary. Yeah, sometimes the light, as you said so well, does come through that wound. And yeah, in hindsight it did for me. Out of that sense of brokenness and pain came a mission, as we'll say here in a bit, to help people not be defined by their worst day, to give people hope. As I've spoken to people, and people have found some sense of hope and healing, that obviously gives me some degree of further healing. So it's hard to think of it at the time, but without that crucible and the pain and the brokenness, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.

I've often thought if I was smarter, I don't know that I would've been happier, which sounds a bit crazy, because if I'd been smarter, listened to the good advisors who said in early '87, "The numbers don't add up," and these were blue chip merchant bankers, as we call it, which is Australian English speak for investment bankers, "The numbers don't add up. If there's a hostile takeover," I was afraid of, "well then gather the family round, wait a few decades, try and get on with other people. Not just listen to the stories you heard growing up or what have you." I mean, there's a long list of things that I could have been smarter about.

But would I have been happier? I would've been trapped in this gilded cage. There always would've been different factions within the family. And it's a large company. As I often say, it didn't really fit my design. I'm more of a reflective advisor, somewhat philosophical. I'm not a take charge, take no prisoners chief executive type. So a lot of reasons it really didn't fit. But if I'd been smarter, I could have been trapped in this company. I mean, very comfortable definitely. I could have been hundreds of millions of dollars more comfortable, if not more than hundreds of millions. And so great. But I don't know that I would've been happy. I would've been trapped in a role that I didn't enjoy, worrying about different factions and what's going on and what's going on behind the scenes and management and all.




Gary Schneeberger:

That is a powerful thing for you to say. Because remember, listener, when we started off, Warwick, and you've heard it before, the failure, in this country we think money is going to make us all happy. If I just had more money, I'd be happier. The failure was $2.25 billion. That was in 1990 money. Today, think of what that could have grown to. So that's a profound statement. I used your word, you say profound a lot on the show, I just used your word, that's a profound statement that you wouldn't necessarily have been happier. In fact, in many ways you would've been not happier.

We are going through, listener, Warwick's latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com called Four Things I Wish I Knew In my Darkest Time. We are moving on now to point three. We've teased it a couple times, sort of like a coming attractions trailer. But the third point in the blog, Warwick, that you wish you would've known, that someone would've told you, or that it would've been on - right - in the syllabus at Oxford, at HBS. This idea that you are not defined, we are not defined, by our worst day. That's one of the top three. If this was Match Game, and I had to pick the top three answers of what Warwick Fairfax says the most on this show, somewhere in the top three would be we are not defined by our worst day. So why was that point, again, of only four you have in this blog, why was that point so important for you to include in this blog?




Warwick Fairfax:

We have a number of sayings, a number of things we believe are true on Beyond the Crucible. But this idea that we are not defined by our worst day, that is close to number one of the truths that we talk about at Beyond the Crucible. So what it means, we're not defined by our worst day, it's we all have mistakes and failures. We all have times in which things go wrong. And it's easy to think, as I did, I thought I was defined by my worst day. I thought my life is over, 150 year old family business founded by a strong believer, I'm a believer, I blew his legacy, caused splits within the family, instability and uncertainty with 4,000 plus employees, et cetera, et cetera.

But I came to realize in hindsight that I was not defined by that. Yes, it's part of my story, but I'm using that to help others. There have been better days. I have three wonderful children. I have a wife of over 30 years. I'm so blessed in so many ways. I've been on two nonprofit boards. I love what I do at Beyond The Crucible. I'm just incredibly blessed and grateful. I could not have foreseen that on my worst day. My life has not been defined by my worst day. It has absolutely not been defined by it. And so that's really one of our central, if not the central, mission of Beyond the Crucible, to help our listeners, to help everybody understand that you are not defined by your worst day. There can be a better day.

We talk a lot about learning the lessons of your crucible that can lead to a vision we call a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. But it all begins, and we use the word choice a lot at Beyond the Crucible, you have to make a choice. Maybe it's not on your worst day because you got to have a bit of room to process and grieve, but ultimately you've got to make a choice, sooner rather than later, to say "I will not let this define me." I'm going to find a way to move forward. I might not have the answers right now, but I'm going to find a way to move forward and I'm not going to let this one mistake or this one terrible circumstance that happened to me be the defining moment in my life. It's going to be one of the toughest moments, but it will not be the defining moment. And I'm going to make that choice to not let that day define me and define my life.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have a question to ask after I ask this one. So sort of give me a yes or no, or a very quick answer when I ask this one. That realization was not all inclusive. It wasn't one and done. It's still, I mean, that's still in process in some ways, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

I think that's fair to a degree.




Gary Schneeberger:

Here's why I ask that question because one of my favorite moments in working with you, Warwick, was when you were preparing for a speech that you were going to give. And every time you had prepared for this speech before you were talking about your crucible, you were talking about the failed takeover of the family media company. And then you talked about the speech you gave in church and people were moved by it. You couldn't understand how people were moved by a speech you gave because, and you said this, you would say this in the first 25 times, I heard you say it as you were practicing, you would say, "I looked around, I didn't understand how this could resonate with people because I did not see any other failed media moguls in the congregation." You always used the word failed media mogul.

And then one day when you were preparing for a speech, we were sitting in your study at your house, we were sitting in your house, you were preparing for your speech, and you said, "I looked around and I didn't see any other former media moguls." And I was like, that's it, right? That was that moment when you weren't defined by your worst day anymore. You didn't use a word that had defined you for so long, failure. You took it out, you deleted it, you threw it out. That was a powerful moment to watch you go through.

What does that liberation feel like? When you're in stage three, when you're in, you're not defined by your worst day, just emotionally, because we talk a lot about emotions here, what does it emotionally feel like to be beyond that? Even if it's only 85, 95% of it, you're mostly behind it all the time. It's very, very small. What does that feel like? So listeners who may be having their worst day today will know what to look for.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, that's a great question, Gary. You're right to pick up on that. I mean, that says subconsciously a lot to go from failed to former. Former is more a statement of reality. There's less emotion behind it. Failed is similar to I am a failure. It would be a synonym in this case. Not always, but in this case, failed meant failure. I am a failure forever was the subtext. So yeah, I can obviously, because of what I do and we do, I talk about the failed takeover. But yeah, it's more objectively talking about what happened.

I don't give a talk, and have to go in my room and sob for a few hours or something. I mean, those days did exist, but they don't happen. At least I can't remember it happening often, if ever, for a long, long time. Doesn't mean there twinges every once in a while. People use this word often today, and rightly so, being triggered. Yes, I'll be triggered occasionally by something, something I read or wherever. An article in an Australian paper that references me. Or there was some cartoon in the last few years that wasn't overly favorable.




Gary Schneeberger:

Correct. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. But yeah, it's subconsciously being able to say, as I've said more recently, that what I went through was a gift. I couldn't say that five years ago. I'm not sure I could have said that two or three years ago. But being able to say former and not failed, that what I went through was a gift in some sense, because I wouldn't be where I am without that, to have some sense of gratitude. I've used words like freedom, liberation from the situation I was in. So that's a very significant mind shift and heart shift and soul shift, if you will.

So back to your question, today, it may be your worst day, it may be hard to fathom. I understand how that could be. But it's true for me, and it's true for many if not most of the guests we've had on the podcast, they haven't been defined by their worst day. They've made a choice to move forward. And yes, I don't know that you can get 100% healed, saying, oh, there won't be any scar. There'll be scars. But yet, can you get to 80, 85, 90% of feeling like you're healed or less broken? I absolutely think that is possible. I absolutely think it's possible.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I love, and I didn't realize I loved it till right now, that you used the word defined here. You're not defined by your worst day. Because what you've just been talking about are new definitions that you've added in to define your worst day. It was a gift. In many ways, in important ways, it was a gift. You're not a failed anything. You're a former something. All of those words, the way that we talk about ourselves, going back to the second point here, just this idea that just because you're broken, you're not worthless. Hanging those adjectives on ourselves, not a good thing. And what you've just described, you've defined a new position that you're in as you're moving through this. And that kind of freedom, you've described this as feeling freeing, that kind of freedom is available to all of you within the sound of my voice.

And we'll move on to the fourth point in this blog, which is the way you put your foot on the step that will lead you there. We talked about this idea of realizing that you need to give yourself permission to grieve. That's sort of the starter's pistol to a life of significance. This fourth point is the start of the physical journey to that place. And that is this, your fourth point, Warwick is a small step forward can be a defining moment. Talk about that a little bit. Because I know for you, and I know for a lot of guests we've had on the show, that is so, so, so true.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. If one of the defining mantras or concepts is your worst day doesn't define you, one of the single most important pieces of advice that I and every guest has shared that I can think of is this concept that a small step forward can be a defining moment, can be huge. For most, I remember we had a series last fall, Second Act Significance, and we had Erik and Emily Orton on. And they sailed around the Caribbean. They've got this whole course about helping people lead kind of worthwhile lives and all.

But it all began when Erik was looking out the window of his Manhattan skyscraper. He was in theater production, and Wicked, I believe. And then he went to start a small production, which basically went under and he lost everything. And he was feeling sorry for himself. And he's looking out the window and he sees these sailboats going down outside of Manhattan. And he's thinking, I'd love to learn how to sail. Now you would think that wasn't a big step, but it was a small step, but in some sense it was the biggest step. And he would say it was maybe the toughest step. Why should that be so tough? But it was very different than what he'd done. And for some reason, the next steps about getting his family to learn how to sail, and then eventually, hey, let's sail around the Caribbean with the whole family, we can be together with his kids. Those were further steps. But the biggest step, the hardest step was the first step, which is sort of interesting.

So for me, one small step I made was we were in Chicago for about nine months in 1991. So company goes under in December 1990. Soon thereafter, we go to Chicago, where my wife had lived for about 10 years before we met in Australia. And I remember thinking, it's cold and it's a big city. And we had friends in Maryland, Annapolis, and they said, "Well, why don't you kind of move here for a few months orIsix months?" And I thought it might be good to give myself a change of location, smaller town. Being from Australia, nicer weather. Did that change everything? No. Did my attitude improve overnight? Did I say, hallelujah, I'm feeling great about myself, hooray? No. But it was a small step. It felt like a small positive step forward to just be in a different environment and we were going to create a new life.

Maybe that's why it was a small step. We were going to create, my wife and I, and she was in the early months of 1991, she was pregnant with our first son, Will. But it was an important step. And there were in steps after that, like the talk in church. Small step after that was, I think I'm going to write a book about this. Not quite sure how it's going to evolve, but I'm going to start writing. And it evolved, and there was a series of steps.

But the power of making a small step forward rather than me just sitting in that small house in Chicago that used to be... My wife Gale's grandfather, built it in the '30s or something. It's a nice, small little house. Two room house, one bathroom. I could said, well, let's just stay here. And it has a basement. So I could have gone to the basement, sort of unfinished basement, and sat there for, I don't know, several decades. And eventually somebody probably would've pushed us out, or say, "Hey, we need to use it for other people," or, "Need to sell it." Couldn't have stayed there forever. We didn't own it. It was owned by my father-in-law. But still metaphorically, I could have stayed in that basement in Chicago for decades, and just moaned and groaned and felt sorry for myself. But that's never the answer.




Gary Schneeberger:

What you've described there, you talked about first small step, moving to the US, moving to Maryland, starting your family. But then you added in some other steps, and then one step led to another step, led to another step. And there's a phrase that you coined recently here at Beyond the Crucible, which I've determined if we ever have a house band like they do on the Tonight Show, we're going to name the house band this. But that phrase that you coined is what?




Warwick Fairfax:

I'm blanking out here. You're going to have to remind me.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's how many things of import come out of Warwick's mouth. You can't remember them all. Flywheel of hope, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Amen.




Gary Schneeberger:

It creates a flywheel of hope. What you just described, Warwick, of you moving, then you started this and you did this, it was a flywheel of hope. And what that did is it then spun into what's happening for you right now. And that is where hope is really coming alive for you and for our constituents here at Beyond the Crucible. That is kind of where your life of significance is right now, is at Beyond the Crucible, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean flywheel of hope, even if I/we thought of it, maybe it's not humble, but forgive me, but I do really like that phrase.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, it's great.




Warwick Fairfax:

Because it's true. And just like with Erik Orton, that one little turn to the flywheel led to him taking lessons, having lessons with his family, sailing around the Caribbean. Then a whole mission to help other people find meaning and purpose. Once the flywheel starts going, the next steps are easier. And so sometimes it takes a while to get cranking. I know for me, there are a few years as we're starting a new family that definitely gave life hope and meaning. It's sort of amazing when you have young kids. You come home, and they kind of just run to you and hug you, and with this immense, unconditional love. It's almost hard to process the unconditional love of your kids, especially when you're broken. It's hard to comprehend that kind of love, but it's incredibly meaningful and healing. So it wasn't easy in the '90s. That flywheel took a while to get going for me, I got to say.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, flywheels crank a little bit. It takes a while to get them cranked up.




Warwick Fairfax:

The first couple cranks can be slow, but around about '96 or something when I got a job in a local aviation services firm, this was just kind of pre-internet, so didn't really know who I was. So I was working in financial business marketing analysis. Got good performance reviews. Yes, I had my cubicle moment when I realized I wasn't using all my skills and abilities for God or for some greater purpose.

But that was an important part of the flywheel of hope because I felt like maybe this isn't the ideal job, but I was doing it well, and I was working hard, as I always do, in everything I do. It's one of my highest values. I was getting very good performance reviews. Now, I respected the bosses I had and just tried to the best of my ability serve them and what they were trying to do. So the flywheel started cranking faster at that point. And it's cranked. There'd been moments where it's cranked faster with each decision, at each moment to move forward. But it's not easy to see when you're looking back, okay, we're going to move to Annapolis, Maryland. Okay. What's that going to mean? But that was part of the flywheel moving forward. And you have to believe that it will lead to other things if you just keep having that flywheel of hope perspective.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And that's when a one small step becomes one major moment in your life. One of the quotes I pulled, and I have bad luck pulling quotes in that they're really good quotes, but there's always a name I can't pronounce. It's like I'm going to get this wrong. This is a quote, I'm going to guess the name is Lamine Pearlheart. It's a quote from Lamine. "It's the little keys that open big doors." That's another mic drop moment for me. It's the little keys that open big doors. It's that one small step that can then trigger that flywheel of hope. And next thing you know, you've created Beyond the Crucible, and you're helping all of these people, including listeners to this podcast, get over their worst day. Understand their worst day doesn't define them.

So we've gone through the four points of the blog just to remind listeners what they are. I'm going to keep talking and stretching it out till I can read them again. Here we go. The first thing that you wish you had known after your crucible moment was it's okay to give yourself permission to grieve. Second thing was feeling broken does not mean you are worthless. Point three, we are not defined by our worst day. And point four is on the other side of this piece of paper. Here it is. Point four is a small step forward can be a defining moment.

All of this stuff, listener, again, all of these insights are on Warwick's latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com. Before we get into what you always end your blogs with, really insightful reflection questions, summarize what we've been through, Warwick. I'll flip your question on you. Why do you think these four points, the way you've articulated them in the blog, in this podcast, how and why do you think that will offer hope to folks who are listening and folks who will be reading?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think it just starts with this notion that your worst day doesn't have to define you. That we may be feel broken, but you're not broken forever. Shards like the Japanese pottery. I think it's-




Gary Schneeberger:

Kintsugi.




Warwick Fairfax:

There you go.




Gary Schneeberger:

Kintsugi.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. You can sort of glue those pieces together, and obviously in kintsugi it's like gold paste, if you will, to glue them together. So you may feel broken, but you're not broken forever. You're not worthless, you're not defined by your worst day. It's really realizing that you're not just defined by your worst day, but you won't be in that pit forever. It's a moment in time, and you have a choice to move forward. Sometimes there are consequences, I realize, depending on the crucible, but there can be a better day.

And really part of it too is realizing, if you have a purpose and a mission in life, we talk about the value of a life of significance, life on purpose dedicated to serving others, and there is some healing. There is some worthwhile, I mean, I enjoy writing, I love hearing other people's stories on the podcast because I learned so much for my own life. I'm a reflective person, so I can't tell you how many times I've listened to podcast guests and going, boy, I love what they said. And just really trying to think about that. What does it do for my viewpoint in my life?

So I feel like what I'm doing now is a blessing because, in my own small way, I am trying to lead a life of significance, to serve others, to have a higher sense of purpose. So yeah, I believe that your worst day does not have to define you. You don't have to be in that pit forever. You just have to start taking some of the steps we talked about. Move forward, take those small steps. And part of what maybe pulls you out of the pit is, when you have that sense of higher purpose, a vision of how this could help people, it's like there's a rope being dangled down the pit, pulling you up out of that pit. And so, assuming that the cliff has some footholds and handholds, you can try and get out of it by yourself. But when you have that vision, it really helps you get out of the pit faster.




Gary Schneeberger:

You've mentioned a couple times here on this episode, Warwick, that you're a reflective person and you always end your blogs with questions of reflection. And listener, I encourage you to listen to these, and to truly reflect on them because part of the way you're going to get meaning that you can apply to your life out of this discussion is to reflect on these questions.

So question one is is there some area in your life where you need to give yourself permission to grieve? Do you feel like you need to journal, or talk to a friend, or seek some counseling? And Warwick didn't write this here, but I'm going to add it here, then do it. Take that first step. It may not feel like a small step, but take that first step. Do it. If you feel like you should do it, do it. The rewards will be great as you move through.

Second point of reflection, what can you do to help you feel that you may be broken, but that you still have worth and value? Do you feel called to read and meditate on a spiritual or philosophical way of thought? Is there someone you know who can give you some positive encouragement? Words of affirmation will knock out those words of degradation all the time. Speak them to yourself and surround yourself with people who can speak them to you. And then the third point of reflection, what one small step can you take that will give you a glimmer of hope that there is a way out of the pit? I'll add something after that too, ponder it, reflect on it, and then have the courage to take that step. Warwick, we've come to the end of our conversation. What would you like to leave listeners with before we go?




Warwick Fairfax:

On your worst day, it is hard to have hope. It's hard if somebody says, "Oh, you know, this too shall pass," which is sometimes people's least favorite aphorism. It's like, oh, it's easy for you to say. You're not where I am. Thank you so much. But I guess you just have to take this leap of faith. You have to make a choice that the pain may be excruciating, but you've got to believe that there is a way out, that there is a glimmer of light, even if you can't see it. Because if you say there is no hope, there is no glimmer of light, then there won't be. Your words will become reality. Your words will put like a cement block on top of that pit.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough, I say all the time, when I know the last word has been spoken on a subject. And Warwick just spoke it about our robust discussion about his latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com. So until the next time we're together, folks, remember this. You've heard it throughout this entire episode. We understand. Warwick understands truly. He talked about it, how painful crucibles are. His was painful, mine was painful, yours are painful. But remember this too, that there is a flywheel of hope. There is a way to get out of the pit. There is a way to move beyond it to set a course for the next stage of your life, the next act of your life, which can be the most rewarding act of your life because where it leads to is a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond The Crucible. Visit our website, beyondthecrucible.com, to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start, our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

Adam Vibe Gunton shares in harrowing detail how his life went from him being a “golden boy,” the star of every sports team he played on, to a tragic descent into darkness and dependence on heroin and prescription painkillers – set into motion by being introduced to cocaine at 12 and worsened when he blamed himself for a friend’s suicide.

He wanted to die … until the rekindling of his faith in a miraculous way set him first on the road to sobriety … and then to significance. He founded Recovered on Purpose, a nonprofit that helps men and women in recovery tell their stories in ways that help others find sobriety, too. Just five years clean, he’s helped more than 1,000 people overcome their addictions … and has big plans for even more wide-ranging impact.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

When that happened, the only coping mechanism that I had was drugs and alcohol. I hadn't been taught what to do when a traumatic event happens, so that led me all the way down to being homeless and 86-ed from a homeless shelter because I got to a point where I was hopelessly addicted. The drugs and alcohol weren't working anymore. They were causing the problems instead of solving the problems. And then by that point, when I realized this isn't working anymore, I found that I couldn't stop. Which is a really scary place for someone to be.




Gary Schneeberger :

A really scary place for someone to be. Our guest this week, Adam Vibe Gunton, is referring to being caught up in the cyclical grip of deep drug addiction. But anyone who's been through a traumatic crucible experience regardless of its details, knows all too well, it's a painfully common emotion. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show.

Gunton shares in harrowing detail how his life went from being a golden boy, the star of every sports team he played on, to a tragic descent into darkness and dependence on heroin and prescription painkillers, set into motion by being introduced to cocaine at 12 and worsened when he blamed himself for a friend's suicide. He wanted to die until the rekindling of his faith in a miraculous way set him first on the road to sobriety and then to significance. He founded Recovered On Purpose, a nonprofit that helped men and women in recovery tell their stories in ways that help others find sobriety too. Just five years clean, he's helped more than 1000 people overcome their addictions and has big plans for even more wide-ranging impact.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, Adam, thanks so much for being here and I love what you do in Recovered on Purpose and working with addicts, if that's the right word, or people who've had substance abuse challenges and just the power of their stories to help others and help them recover. It's the paradigm that's incredible, and just the title of your book, From Chains to Saved, that is such a powerful concept. But before we get into what you do now, I'd love to go into a bit of the backstory of the threads of Adam and what made you who you were growing up. What was a young Adam Gunton like?




Adam Vibe Gunton:

Yeah, absolutely. Growing up I was like middle America golden boy. I started out having straight A grades. I was the home run derby hitter at the Little League World Series in eighth grade. My football team won state every year in Little League, and I won state in wrestling in Little League. And then I went to a school that everybody's heard of. I went to Columbine High School and I was the defensive captain of our state championship football team my senior year, I was the captain of the wrestling team. I even had the opportunity of taking three Broncos cheerleaders to my senior year homecoming.

So by all extents and purposes, I was living the teenage dream, but the issue was that I was putting on a facade and hiding a deep, dark secret that had been growing since I was 12 years old when someone introduced me to cocaine. And it hit a peak my freshman year of college. And that's when things just kind of changed for me. It was no longer just having fun. I wasn't that athlete anymore. And it was as if my whole life went in a totally different direction.




Warwick Fairfax:

What was your upbringing like? Your parents, did you feel like you had a good home and it seemed like life was going pretty well, so just talk about that. Yeah, how was that for you?




Adam Vibe Gunton:

I loved my family. My family loved me. We had a really good upbringing, suburbs, that kind of stuff. My parents never missed a sporting event. My grandparents never missed a sporting event. And when I was 10, I didn't grow up in a religious household. We didn't go to church together and that kind of stuff. But when I was really young, I started just knowing that something else was there. Really young, eight, nine years old. And when I was 10, my best friend at the time, Ben, we had a sleepover at my place and I knew that he went to church, I knew his family did that and that kind of stuff. So I started asking him, I was like, "What is God? What is this idea of God?" And he told me, "All I know is that you have to accept Jesus in your heart."

And right in the basement of my parents' house, two 10-year-old kids got on their knees in front of each other and he just asked me, "Do you accept Jesus?" And I said, "Yes." I get chills every time I tell this story because it happens again. And I felt it. I had all the opportunities that I could have dreamed for, all the opportunities you want to give to a kid that you're raising. And I think that's why it's important that my story gets out just as much as everybody else's story.

A lot of people think that the foundation of addiction or the foundation of alcoholism is you grew up in a broken home and it's not true. Everybody, by the time they're 15, about two thirds of students by the time they're 15, say that they have experienced some kind of real trauma. So I think we need to stop allowing excuses and start taking responsibility in a new way as a society and stop telling addicts, "Yeah, it's because of your past, the way that you are." Because it's not true. I was homeless, an IV drug addict, and I had every opportunity not to be.




Warwick Fairfax:

Was there a time in life in which you were harder on yourself than maybe other addicts might be or, I don't know if that question makes sense at all or any sense of guilt or...




Adam Vibe Gunton:

Yeah, 100%. It makes sense. So there's two parts of this, because I have seasons to this question. At a part of my recovery, I had this remembering moment of what actually happened. I was introduced to cocaine at 12 years old by someone that was 22. So for this period of time in my recovery, all of a sudden my brain is like, "What did this person do to me? I had all these opportunities and this kind of stuff," and then I had to have a realization. So the fact that they weren't in my life anymore for a month after that, a month after he introduced me to it, I kept going with it. When did it become my responsibility? When are my actions my responsibility?

And this goes back to the same thing with the trauma I was just saying. I am not discounting the horrible things that I have heard people have gone through that led them to addiction. I'm just saying whatever it is that led you to it, as soon as you recognize, you can stop blaming it, and you can stop excusing yourself for your actions today. And that's kind of where I had to get. As soon as my body felt that I could change the way that it feels by instantly just putting something in it, I was like, "What else can I feel like?"




Gary Schneeberger :

And that was a big pivot for you, Adam, wasn't it? From doing drugs to just kind of party and have a good time and have fun, to what you just described as changing the way you feel. And there was a reason for that pivot that really set your life on the trajectory that made it really hard to come back from. Talk about that a little bit, that pivotal moment where you were still dabbling, I guess, on the edges of things and then something happened in your life and that set you on the express train, if you will.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

It was September 28th, 2008. And I had been out partying and drinking like most nights of my freshman year of college, when I woke up to my phone ringing and vibrating down by my leg, and I swam through the soft sheets to find my hard phone with the bright screen that read 4:47 AM and my best friend Chucker was calling me. And I remember having the conscious choice that I could either answer the phone I always do with, "Hey, what's up Chuck?" Or I could answer the way I was feeling with, "Ugh, hello?" And in my still drunken state, I chose the latter, to which a soft voice replied, "Hey, what's up?"

"Why are you calling me this late?"

"I was just calling to say hi."

"Don't call me this late again." And I hung up on him, and he shot himself. And nearly a decade after that experience, I couldn't share that phone call with anyone. As I bottled it down deeper and deeper and deeper with drugs and alcohol, they were no longer the way to party and have fun. I had to drink in order to be around the funeral as people were hugging me and consoling me. And inside I'm telling myself, "This is my fault." And that's where I started learning all the things that I am ashamed of in myself, all the negative feelings, all of the worries and anxieties and things.

I can mask those with drugs and alcohol. I can go to this club and be a little high and have some drinks. I can talk to everybody, I can dance with that pretty girl over there. And before that moment, I was doing it, experimenting, having fun, that kind of stuff. But when that happened, the only coping mechanism that I had was drugs and alcohol. I hadn't been taught what to do when a traumatic event happens. So that led me all the way down to being homeless and 86ed from a homeless shelter, because I got to a point where I was hopelessly addicted. The drugs and alcohol weren't working anymore. They were causing the problems instead of solving the problems. And then by that point, when I realized this isn't working anymore, I found that I couldn't stop, which is a really scary place for someone to be.




Gary Schneeberger :

Listeners may know this about me because I did an episode of the show where I was the interviewee, Adam, where Warwick interviewed me about my life's journey. And you and I talked about this when we talked before we started recording this episode. I have an alcoholic past; in fact, I told you that I was going to wear a special thing. Well, this hat that I'm wearing is a hat that I had made by a Hollywood hat maker to look exactly like the hat that Warren Beatty wore in Dick Tracy. It was my gift to myself from my 25th sober anniversary, which was last April. When this show comes out, it will be 26 and four days, 26 years and four days since I have gotten sober.

So I say all that to say one of the things that you're talking about about letting guilt go, one of the things I remember from AA when I started there was, we can only deal with our side of the street. We're only responsible for our side of the street. We're not responsible for what other people do. We're responsible for what we do and we have to forgive ourselves as we go through that. That had to have been a difficult process as you we're walking it out.

One of the reasons I think it didn't happen to you as immediately as it might have happened otherwise, there's the grips of the addiction, but you were a high functioning addict, right? For the longest time you weren't the guy who got booted out of the homeless shelter. You were highly functioning. Talk about that a little bit, that period, because that makes it harder. I was like that too, where it didn't affect my life in the sense of I couldn't hold a job or I couldn't keep relationships. I could do those things. Talk about how that played out for you and why that made it so difficult to even know that you needed to find help.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

That's a deep question with a lot of different paths because after Chuck's suicide, I found Oxycontin and then had a prescription for it for 250 milligrams a day. And that's what started opiate addiction for me. And when I moved over to heroin, I had started this company, this pest control company, and I had never sold anything before. I had sold drugs before, but not as a business. So had never sold anything before professionally. And my partner and I started it out of his apartment with a truck and some pesticides and a dream. And the first year that we went out, he was doing servicing. I was going door to door and selling. I just figured it out. And I sold 967 accounts my first year selling door to door. And during that time, I had a needle in my arm. The reason why I believe I was successful with sales, and what I try to let people know is the addiction doesn't say who the person is, because I never lost my heart for people.

I wasn't a liar. I wasn't somebody that would manipulate somebody into sales. The reason why people would do business with me is because I would learn what I'm doing to the best of my ability so that every question they ask me, I can answer honestly. And that bled into every single sales job I had. I broke records in two different industries, in three different states for selling DirecTV, Dish Network. One time during my addiction, I wanted to show people that it didn't matter what you're selling on the doors. And I decided to show someone that by not knowing anything about solar and going out for a day with him and showing him that I could close some solar.

We got three deals in four hours for solar, because I wanted to show, it's not about figuring out the exact process of what you need to say to people. It's about loving people, finding the people that can actually use your service. When you knock on the door, have something that you can find if you can help them within 15, 30 seconds, if you can't wish them well. And it was difficult being so good at that and a drug addict because I was able to feed my addiction very well also.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's just fascinating in that you weren't really a different person. You were caring, you were loving others, you were successful professionally. Were you thinking to yourself, "Well, I got this drug addiction, but life's not that bad." Does it make harder being a pretty high functioning addict, if you will? Because maybe I guess it got worse, but at one point life wasn't that bad.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

Having a heroin addiction, an IV heroin addiction, it's always bad. It's always bad. It's so up and down all the time, that first year that I'm doing all that success on the doors, everybody's seeing the pest control company, but nobody's seeing that every penny I'm making is going in my arm and I'm living in an apartment that's really dirty. It's basically I'm living like a junkie, but same as the athlete in high school. I'm putting out this really good show, but nobody sees where I'm actually living. Nobody sees what I'm actually doing back here.

It became a pattern. And it was almost like I needed to put that face on for people. I needed people to value me because I knew I was of no value and I had different ways to prove it. And one of them, I never had to worry, and I never have to worry about ever getting a job. I can go get a sales job at any point in my life if I ever needed to. And they loved working with me. They loved it because I was able to come and break records, do really well for their company and they supported me.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's a scary image you've just portrayed. You've got the public Adam that people think, "Yeah, he breaks records, he's a nice guy, closes sales, wonderful guy to work with." And then the private Adam, which you just sort of felt broken and worthless and unable to stop this addiction and eating up all your money. There were two different Adams. That must have been an incredibly difficult thing to wrestle with. So I know there was a turnaround, but from what I understand, things did get worse, which is hard to, how could it be worse? But talk about that, how it went from, you had this dual life that was... I don't know if it was functioning, but maybe on some level you were functioning in some strange way. But talk about how it did get a bit worse.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

In 2015, on November 6th, early morning hours, November 6th, 2015, I was in Montana and I was selling door to door. And that night I had gone over to my then girlfriend's aunt's house where she was staying and I was kind of hiding my drug use from her. Even I had told her that I had stopped and that kind of stuff. And I left her house, went around the corner and I made up a shot and I shot up. And at first got really upset because I thought it was bunk because I didn't feel anything. But then the next thing I know, I'm waking up on the asphalt in a pile of glass, blue and red lights everywhere and police and medics around me. And this was before everybody knew about fentanyl. This was at the very beginning of it when they were still selling it as heroin.

So I overdosed on fentanyl and at the time there wasn't enough knowledge about it and that kind of stuff to find me support. And I was put into the criminal justice system. I didn't go to prison, I didn't go to jail for very long, but I was on probation. I got a felony for having a really little amount of drugs and I was sick. It was my medicine. You would think that being in a courtroom facing five years in prison and watching body cam footage of your own dead body would make you stop. But I suffered for two more years after that. I was seeking treatment. There was no treatment for me. My probation officer was seeking me treatment because I was honest. I was honest.

By this time, 2015, 16, 17, I was honest with everyone. I couldn't hide it anymore. I actually wanted help the whole time. And I couldn't get into a treatment and it just kept going. I was going to 12 step meetings every day. I was going to church every Saturday and Sunday, a Bible study every Tuesday. And I was consistently just getting worse and worse and worse. I had quit my door-to-door job because I knew that I'm just enabling myself. These companies now give me an apartment or they give me a house, they pay all my bills. Plus they give me a check every week as I'm selling. And I was being mentored by the second fastest growing CEO of that year on Inc 500. And the reason why he decided to mentor me is because when I came up to him, I said, "I'm a drug addict. I have a good heart and I want to help people. I don't know what to do."

So he started talking to me every day and it ended up where I called him on the floor of this corporate apartment that he had gotten me telling him, "I'm going to kill myself. I can't do this anymore." And he talked me down and I decided to quit my job, quit everything and do whatever it takes to find recovery. Moved into a homeless shelter. You've ever heard, "You got to let him hit rock bottom?" Rock bottom is a myth. It is a myth. It does not exist. Because I thought it was rock bottom back in 2013 when I had that pest control company and I was sitting in that apartment, I was telling you about, writing a suicide note on my iPad and then shooting up, trying to kill myself. Then I thought it was rock bottom when I was in a homeless shelter and I was on my knees praying and I look over and I'm in a homeless shelter with about 80 other men in a room. And I thought that was rock bottom.

Then I got 86-ed from the homeless shelter to where I'm super homeless and I can't even go back to the homeless shelter to eat lunch. And I thought that was rock bottom. And it kept getting worse and worse and worse. And for me, I just consistently was making these plans on how I'm going to make this work. If I go to this meeting and this meeting and this meeting, if I get this guy to sponsor me and this guy to mentor me and all these different things, then I'm going to make it work. And I couldn't get it.

It just got to a point where I literally gave up, I gave up, I wanted to die. I asked God specifically, "Please just let me die. I'm not going to these meetings. I'm not going to church anymore. I'm not going to Bible study. Please just let me die." And when I said that to him, I was so honest, I really didn't want my life anymore. And that's when he showed up and that's when I actually had the willingness to listen to what he wants me to do and change my life.




Warwick Fairfax:

It seems like up to that point we sometimes talk about when you're at the bottom of the pit, what you are saying is there was no bottom. It was like a black hole. It sucks you in. There's no way out and there is no bottom. There's endless degrees of down and darkness. There's an infinite array of more darkness, more pain, and no hope, no light. As we know from black holes. There is no escape once you go in there, even light can't escape. Is that fair, that sounds like that's where you're at and that's probably why you were thinking of suicide because you're thinking, "Oh, it can get worse." Even when you couldn't even get to a homeless shelter, you were probably thinking, "Oh absolutely, it can get a lot worse than this." At that point that's probably what you were thinking. Is that fair?




Adam Vibe Gunton:

That's exactly what - exactly. And that's what scares me so much about ever going back in any way because people will say, "I know I can't relapse," because they'll die. I'm like, "I know I can't relapse because I don't know what's going to happen." And I know that I got to a point where I wanted to die but I couldn't die and I couldn't quit using. So I don't ever want to go back because it's so scary not knowing how bad it gets.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, was there any sign that after being arrested that you'd pivoted from this double life? The public Adam and the private, you were one Adam, maybe a messed up hurting Adam, but one Adam. As you were falling down this bottomless pit, at least your arms were flailing to try and get a handhold on the stones maybe before you weren't even trying to grab the stones, but at least you were trying. Did it feel like there was a small shift, you were being honest, you were being one Adam and at least you were trying?




Adam Vibe Gunton:

Yeah, 100%, because then my boss had to bail me out of jail. That's a hard phone call when someone doesn't know you're a drug addict to say, "Yeah, I am in jail because I overdosed." That's a hard phone call. Then everybody knows. And at that same time, I used to be able to go to different states and would have my own technician because I could fill the technician's schedule up. He wouldn't have to have a whole team. So I would be able to go wherever I wanted. My technician, God bless him, he didn't understand anything about addiction and he just quit. And he was like, "I don't want anything to do with him. I don't ever want to talk to him again. Addicts are this and this and that." So all of a sudden my worst fear was added onto because someone actually left me because of it.

But then also there was this other group of people that were fully supportive, came and bailed me out, still kept me in a hotel, talked to me every day. And yes, I was working for him. But I could tell there was a difference. It wasn't just because I was working for him. Because he knew me. He knew that I sell to love people. I do this because I love people. And that's interesting. I wish everybody, and it's getting better and better and better, but people should know that addicts are very sick, they're very sick. They're not bad people. And some people are bad people whether they're addicted or not. So I believe in love and I hope that everybody listening to this shows someone love that they might not have before.




Gary Schneeberger:

And you have a friend that you had at that time. It's a great segue. Who was that kind of person who didn't try to fix you, quote unquote, who just walked alongside you. If you needed a ride somewhere, he gave you a ride somewhere. If you needed something, he gave you something. He treated you not like your disease, he treated you like his friend. And that really was the start of the miraculous healing from addiction that you encountered. Talk about that, what that meant to have someone who just looked at Adam as Adam, not Adam as a problem to be solved.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

And you put that so perfectly. My best friend, Brendan, he was the Bible study leader of the bible study I went to every Tuesday for months before I found recovery. He took me to church, he would pick me up from the homeless shelter, take me to church, Bible study, coffee, lunch, whatever. And then when I was kicked out of there, he would pick me up from the streets wherever I was at, make sure that I was getting to Bible study, make sure I was getting to church and that kind of stuff. And he was the only person in my life, throughout my entire addiction, that never gave me advice about how to stop, advice about what I need to do to change. He just expressed love the way that he knew he was supposed to from God. He just walked with me through this and it took me months.

He baptized me in the Yellowstone River August 28th, 2017 and I didn't get sober until November 6th, 2017. That's saying something when someone is just walking with someone. Because in reality, we have to really understand our own inadequacy sometimes. We don't know everything that's needed for someone else's life. And if you can recognize that love is the thing that someone needs and you just express the love because you want to express love to them, that's when they can find the change themselves.

Can you imagine telling an alcoholic that's in his alcoholism these days, "Why don't you go to AA and do the 12 steps?" Do you think there's any alcoholic on the planet that's never heard that, or that isn't thinking that in the back of their head? We know, we know, dude. You're just bashing me more and more. And that's what I coach people also that have someone in their life that is addicted. I tell them, don't bring it up until they ask you because there's no reason to. Just love them. Text them every week and just let them know how much you love them, that kind of stuff because you'll become a safe place for them to come to when they're ready.




Warwick Fairfax:

Humans don't often have that unconditional love in which they love you right or wrong, slow to condemn, quick to love, quick to forgive, quick to understand. That's not very human for most of us, but it sounds like this friend Brendan was a lot of that.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

And I think you actually hit the nail on the head that I haven't put together before. It's not a human trait. It's not a normal human trait to unconditionally love somebody, not judge them, not condemn them, and to see them as the value within them. And how can you possibly get that except from getting that from God. You have to learn how God sees people in order to see people how God sees people. And what he did and what was so different, it was as if he was on a mission from God. It was as if as he was walking, he knew that what he was doing was what he was supposed to do from God. And it wasn't something where he needed to be the one that was the one that gave Adam the advice that got him clean. He understood that ultimately it was going to be God.

And he believed also. I believed that he believed the entire time for me also. But he didn't have expectations of me. He didn't expect this thing from me this month and do this in order for me to keep loving you. No, he was just there. I express that in every way that I can to people now. And it's a difficult thing to do. Like you're saying, it's not really human and especially when you get messages from everybody and you're getting a bunch of them per month.

A way that I express it now is every single email, every single message that I get from someone, I personally speak with them. I personally ask them what's going on in their life. I personally ask them questions and I personally tell them what I would do in those shoes because I've been through it. Or I ask them, "How can I support you? What do you need?" And the interesting thing is that it feels better being the person loving than the person being loved. It's this paradox, this spiritual paradox where you will always be more fulfilled by showing the love than receiving the love. And it's almost as if it's because you're getting the infinite from above and expressing exactly how you can in your human.




Gary Schneeberger:

Speaking of getting the infinite from above, great pivot point here. We've spent a lot of time talking about the grip of your addiction and the way that it affected your life, but here's the pivot point. From above came change. Walk us through that. Let's get into both your getting clean, your getting saved and then getting commissioned to go out and doing what you're doing right now with your foundation.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

Yeah, I started it a little bit earlier when I was sitting in a car that a girl let me borrow and it wasn't stolen, but I did have to start it with a screwdriver because that's how we lived back then. But I'm sitting in this car before Bible study and I had this epiphany that I have tried everything here. I have literally tried everything there is here to quit. And I sat back in the seat and I audibly said to God, "I'm done. I'm not going to Bible study, I'm not going to church. I'm not going to these meetings anymore. Please just let me die." And right when I said that I heard a whisper in my heart. I don't hear the audible out here, it's as if he is right here in my heart. And he said, "It's time, go." And at that moment you would think I was like, yay, excited.

But I knew it was God. And my immediate reaction was anger at him because what's different about this time? What's different about this time than all the times that I dumped my dope in the toilet saying I'm never going to use again and then wake up and pawn my TV? What's different about this time? So I'm in this car and I'm screaming at him and I'm crying like, "Please just let me die. Please just let me die." And I'm doing this for a few minutes. And then when I start calming down, he just repeats himself in that still soft voice. And he said, "It's time. Go." And again, I didn't get this overwhelming sense of power or anything, but I just got this sense of willingness that I'd never had before. Okay, I'm going to let go of all my plans of two meetings a day and church every Saturday and Sunday and this person sponsoring me, I'm going to let go all of that and let you take total control.

And I made that decision right there in that car with him alone. And I go to the Bible study, I'm 12 minutes late, I open the doors, I bust them open and they're in the middle of prayer and I interrupt prayer and I dropped down on my knees and I throw my hands up. I'm like, "Guys, I used again. I can't stop. Please help me, please help me." And I'm 148 pounds at the time, I'm 215 now. I'm crying, I'm a mess. I was just screaming and crying with God. And Brendan, same exact Brendan, walks over to me and he pats me. He's like, "Hey bro, let's just get through Bible study." He walks me over and we go through Bible study.

At the end when everybody was leaving, one of the elders, Carmen, comes up to me and he says, "Hey bro, I just got a word. I need to pray for you." I was like, "Okay." And he sits me down on this ottoman in the middle of the room and he stands in front of me. And Brendan is standing behind me to the right. And George, another elder is standing next to him. And for the first time in my life, this man put a hand on my shoulder. He looked me in the eyes and he started to speaking to spirits in the name of Jesus and telling them to leave me.

At that moment, I'm literally feeling weight coming off of my shoulders. I'm feeling as if I'm getting loosened from things. And after this event, I actually make it five days clean, which at the time is a total miracle. We can't do that in those grips. And Brendan, again, Brendan comes and picks me up, takes me to IHOP, International House of Pancakes, and we're having breakfast and I'm sitting there and I'm talking to him and everything, I'm all excited. I'm like, "Dude, I'm actually going to do it. I have five days." He's like, "Okay bro, yeah, let's go."

And I get this text message on my phone and I open it up because I just have this little flip phone and it's from my dope dealer. And he's like, "Hey bro, I just got some new stuff. It's fire. I'll give you a free 20 to try out." And right when I read it, I felt the spirit go in through the top of my head all the way through my body. My toes were tingling, my fingers were tingling, I lost my peripheral vision. All I could see was the phone and my thumbs just started texting back and it was in King James. It was like "Ye shall not text me again. Thou has texted me for the last time."

Then when I finish the text, I feel it, leave me again. My vision comes back. I'm like, "What the heck?" And I'm looking at the phone and I show it to Brendan. I was like, "Dude, that was not me." I was like, "That was not me. I don't know what that was." He was like, "Okay." And I pushed send, I close it and I'm looking down at my pocket. I was like, "Dude, I don't know what that was. I don't know who that was." And I look back up and Jesus is sitting across from me. The entire restaurant had completely disappeared, it was as if I went into a trance. There was a bright light coming from behind him. He was smiling at me. I immediately knew who it was, immediately knew it was happening. And the only thing that I can compare that moment to was when I used to shoot up heroin, when all those negative thoughts and those identities that I've been struggling with and the guilt and the shame and all this stuff is clouding my mind and then it all goes away with one warm flood.

But the difference of this moment is all that negative stuff flowed out of me. And immediately I was overwhelmed with a sense of purpose and value and love and identity and peace in less than a second. And I immediately fell my face to the table, my hand up. I said, "Thank you God, thank you God, thank you God." I came back up and he was gone. And I believe 100% in instant healing, putting your hands on somebody and they're healed and Jesus does that. That didn't happen for me. And I believe it's for a reason. For the next three weeks, I was craving, withdrawing, shaking every day, needing dope because this is the first time I've gone this long since I was 12 years old. And the only thing that helped me through that time, the only time I got relief from those shakes and the cravings was when I was sitting down with another person that suffered the same disease as me who was helping me find recovery.

I embarked on the 12 steps. When I was actually sitting down and writing out my fourth step, I spent all my hours working my steps. When I was actually sitting down and writing it, I didn't have the cravings, I didn't have the withdrawals for whatever reason. I did my first ever fifth step on day 25. And this whole time my sponsor's come in and pick me up every morning from the sober living house at 6:30 AM. On day 26, he comes and picks me up and we're on the way to go do the work in his 1983 mailman Jeep. And I'm looking over at this beautiful sunrise and for the first time since I was 12 years old, I had no desire to drink or use and it hasn't returned since.

It was as if one day my mind is going this way, "I need dope. There's nothing I can do, I'm craving." And then all of a sudden just a completely different thought pattern. I actually don't desire it. What is this? And when I actually experienced that freedom that I wanted to die because I didn't think it was available to me, as soon as I accessed that and knew it was available, I knew it was my life's purpose to get as many people to find that freedom as possible and to help as many people find it in whatever way I possibly could. And at the beginning of my recovery, again, I found a lot of professional success. I built that company. That was in 2018, they did $48,000. I came on as chief marketing officer in March of 2019 and we did $1.3 million the rest of the year and then we doubled the following year also. So I'm having a lot of success in early recovery.

I'm in my apartment right before two years clean and sober, new apartment, new car, new motorcycle. I was homeless a year and a half ago and I had a thought that I wanted to kill myself. Like, "What the heck? I made it, what is going on?" And as soon as I felt that though I have these guards up from it, I know that's not me. I know those are not my thoughts now. So I got up and I went over to my bed, dropped on my knees, and I started praying deep those deep prayers like, "God, I'm sick of this. Show me what you have me here to do." And just started praying, "Help, I want to help millions of people, God. Show me what to do." Go to sleep, wake up in the morning, do the same prayer, and five minutes later I'm eating breakfast and I'm on Instagram and I see this ad, never seen this ad before and it's for a conference for how to bring God into your business.

I was like, "If that's not an answer, I don't know what is. So I click on it, I buy a ticket and I go out to this conference in Vacaville, California. And the first night, I don't know anybody there, there's 1500 Christian entrepreneurs there. And the first night Jesus Culture is playing on the stage and I'm right in front and I'm worshiping and just getting in it with God. And then I hear that same voice from the car before Bible study and it said, "Your new company's called Recovered on Purpose." And I looked up, I was like, "That's good." And I pull out my phone and I get the domain right there, recoveredonpurpose.com, dot org. And then I check the Secretary of State. I'm super excited. And then a couple days later, this speaker comes up on stage and is talking about publishing a book, how to self-publish a book and all these different things.

And I'm rigorously taking notes and I've always wanted to write a book. Same voice again. "If you publish your book for your two years clean and sober, you're going to inspire so many others to do the same. I was like, my two years, that's in five weeks. And I was like, but I know that voice. I know that voice. And anybody listening, when you hear that voice, follow. Whatever you think your plans are and whatever you think your limits are, that voice has none of them. He doesn't have limits and he has plans we can't conceive. So I go home, I let my business partners know, "Hey, I need to take a few weeks off," and I turn my phone off and for the first couple days I know that I'm not going to be able to just sit down and figure out writing a book.

I have five weeks. So what I do is on this giant whiteboard, I start dumping out every experience for my life, every possible memory I have of stories, of experiences, of things. And I write them all out in five words or less just so I can remember what they are. Write them all out. And then I think, okay, what do I want my book to actually say? I know I want to share my recovery story, but my recovery story could share so many different things. What do I want it to share? In mine, I wanted to share with people the reality of the spiritual realm and my testimony of Jesus.

So I take this list of all these stories and I start picking the ones out that would point to that message and I start putting them on this other whiteboard. Then I make a mind map. You know how it'll make a story. And then I sit down with a checklist and I write each one, one by one by one by one by one. And then I published From Chains to Saved on November 6th, 2019, for my two years clean and sober. It became a number one bestseller. I was able to outsell the Big Book for a month, which the Big Book saved my butt and the Bible saved my soul.




Warwick Fairfax:

Just for those who may not know, just say what the Big Book is because you guys know, but everybody might not.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

Yep. The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. And I'm okay. I don't say that I'm a member of any specific fellowship, but I do work out of that thing because it worked for me. I sit down and I read it with people and I do the work with it exactly how it says to do it in there and it works. So I published that book. And what I didn't realize during this whole process is that that way that I just wrote that book became exactly the foundation of Recovered on Purpose and how I coach others to share their story. Because when you get up and you share a recovery story, what do you want it to share? Do you just want to tell your story? Or do you want to specifically tell women out there that have lost their kids in their addiction, who feel hopeless that they're never going to get them back, how you lost your kids and you got them back two and a half years into recovery.

And now you're getting married and you, you're doing podcasts and you're doing all this stuff. Do you want to share that specific message or do you want to make sure that you share your testimony of Jesus? And there's all kinds of different ways to share a story. And now we're got a lot of people out there sharing their stories. I've got someone that's given her first professional speech this month to a bunch of judges and lawyers and teachers who are leaders of at-risk youth because she was an at-risk youth, but now she's going to be speaking to them and teaching them how to help the kids that they're serving.

There's so many of us in recovery. And to be clear, I love every single one of the fellowships out there that are helping people. I love every single member of every single fellowship. I believe that it is outdated, the way that you expect to help people waiting in a room for them to walk in. We have social media, we have podcasts, we have books, we have videos. I have a video on YouTube that has reached over 750,000 people. And the amount of emails I've gotten from people, "Hey, how did you do it? I'm looking for help," and this kind of stuff. Hey, send them a link to the fellowships near them, send them a link to treatment near them. We have so many different tools at our disposal in this season of the world. We need to take advantage of them. And that's what Recovered on Purpose is about. We get our stories out to reach the people that don't know that the freedom is available to them.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's so inspiring what you're sharing, Adam. I just want to go back for a moment to that time in the car and IHOP. It seems like you tried everything, mentors, advisors, you were falling through this bottomless pit. There was no hope. Maybe it's like the walls were glass, there was nothing to hold onto, but yet somehow you found faith, you found God. That provided a bottom to the pit and more than just the bottom, lifted you up. It seemed like, if I'm getting this right, God was able to help you when nothing else worked. The other thing that I know it's hard for many of us to fully grapple with, I know in my church and others this whole concept of spiritual warfare, which is very difficult to understand and the word is controversial maybe, but there's different ways of looking at it.

But I guess more broadly, I think many people would think there are forces for good and forces for darkness. And I think we all have moments in our lives where there is good thoughts that enter our minds and there's not so good thoughts. And for people of faith, the tools we use is prayer and the Bible. Say, "I don't know where this came from, but it's going." So it sounds like you faced those thoughts. People talk about inner demons and it doesn't really matter for the purpose of our conversation where it all comes from. But not only did you have faith, you found a tool to deal with your inner demons, inner darkness, what have you, that you didn't have before. So talk about, that was the reason for the change for you.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

The whole time, I know God exists. There was even a time in my addiction where I was writing prayers to him to quit and I even wrote my own 12 step program, thinking I might be able to do it just with God. But I had this immense amount of shame and guilt because I loved him so much and I knew that there was no way he could love me because of the way that I was being. And that shifted in my first 30 days of recovery. I remember having this, I was in a meeting and I don't know what happened, but it was like my thought process just clicked like, oh my gosh, God loved me first. He loved me before I even accepted him.

Then I just started going through all this stuff. I was like, he loved me the whole time. There's nothing I have to do to earn his love. There's nothing I can do to earn his love. And when I realized that, I can know that that solves all my problems, not just my inner demons. It solves all my problems. And I can always go back to a place where the same love from Brendan, it had to be expressed to me through Brendan for me to get it, but now I spent time with him every morning, I need to fill myself up with that love that I know exists.




Gary Schneeberger:

I say all the time to guests, we always go by content, not the clock, but we're also mindful that guests have lives and they have places to go. Tell listeners how they can find out more about Recovered on Purpose and then we'll let Warwick ask more questions for as long as you can stay with us.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

And I appreciate that and I'm loving this conversation, loving this conversation. On Facebook, Recovered on Purpose. I do a lot of stuff on there. I do the Recovered on Purpose show and do some posts on there and stuff. And I reply to every message on there. And if you're in recovery, I made a free relapse prevention worksheet and you can fill it out on your phone or your laptop, your tablet or whatever. Made it super simple at recoveredonpurpose.org. And I give my book away, a digital and audio copy that I read to you, and that's on recoveredonpurpose.org as well.




Warwick Fairfax:

Adam, one of the things I love about Recovered on Purpose, and I loved the title, is your thought about the power of addicts sharing their stories to help others. You mentioned, I think that 9% of addicts coming out of rehab make it sober a year. So relapse is sadly all too common and maybe the norm, but just talk about how the power of giving, of loving others through sharing their stories is a game changer to change those stats, which I think is the core tenet of Recovered on Purpose. Talk about how the power of sharing their stories changes addicts lives and changes others' lives.




Adam Vibe Gunton:

Yeah, 100%. I mean, for instance, if you have a school that you're speaking at next week, you have this big podcast you're doing three weeks from now and you have a TEDx talk that's coming up in October, how are you going to be thinking about using drugs? You are looking forward to so many different things and you're thinking about the people that you can help. You're constantly thinking about this message that you're going to be able to express to the world and help people with, you know, have this purpose. And that's what I think is lacking in the recovery world.

We are really grateful to find recovery and we forget how hard it was to find it, how much work we had to do to find it. And we should be working equally as hard or more hard to help others find it. Even if you're not in recovery, if you're not an addict, there is something that you have been through. And this is something I tell everybody, if you have been through something that you thought was going to break you and you made it through, there is somebody going through that thing right now that needs your message for hope, the exact same thing that broke you, that you healed from, and it can become your superpower.




Warwick Fairfax:

Let me ask one final quick question. There may be somebody today that feels, I usually say at the bottom of the pit, but let's, I think, use your perspective, which is haunting. They may feel like they're falling through a bottomless pit. There is no bottom, there is no hope, there is no light. Suicide may feel like for them the only option, but they're in this ever falling bottomless pit. What would a word of hope be for somebody that maybe today they're in that situation and they may be an addict or some other challenge, which they're just in endless free fall. What would a word of hope be for that person?




Adam Vibe Gunton:

Well, it's a lie. It's a lie to think that there is no way out. And it's a really powerful thing to take responsibility. And I'm not saying it's not hard what you're going through. I'm not saying that you don't deserve the grace that you need right now, but all grace to you, all love to you. And take the responsibility to learn from whatever's going on right now and take the steps that are going to pull you out of it. If that means calling someone in your life that could help you through this, if that means reading a book that you think might give you some wisdom around it. If that means going back to church, just walk in. The first step towards really changing is deciding to take the first step. Whatever it is in your situation, this is your call to take it.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough, listener, to know when the last word on a subject has been spoken. And Adam Vibe Gunton, Vibe is not his middle name. I asked him, did Mr. And Mrs. Gunton name you Vibe? And he said, no. It's a nickname that helps him differentiate himself between another guy. And it's kind of cool because he is got a vibe to him, which is nice. So until we are together the next time, listener, please remember, we understand. You heard it in this episode. Your crucibles are difficult, but you know what? They're not the end of your story.

In fact, if you learn the lessons of them, if you apply the lessons of them, they can become a great new chapter in your story, as it's become in Adam's life, as it's become in Warwick's life, and my own life. Because what ends up happening, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles and move forward, the destination that you're headed to is the best of all because it is a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond The Crucible. Visit our website beyondthecrucible.com to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start, our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

Early 1991 was a dark time for me.

In December 1990, we had declared bankruptcy for John Fairfax Ltd., after a failed $2.25 billion takeover bid for my family’s media company in Australia.

I felt like I had let my family down, causing rifts in the family after my takeover bid.  I felt like I had let my parents down, including my father who died in early 1987.  I felt like I had let the four thousand plus employees down of the family business.  I felt like I had let the legacy of my great great grandfather John Fairfax (the founder of the company) down.  I being a person of faith like my great great grandfather, even felt like I had let God down.  I was not in a good place.

I was in the pit of despair. 

My whole life, I had prepared myself to take a leading role in the family business; undergraduate degree at Oxford, working on Wall Street, an MBA from Harvard Business School.  But after the failed takeover I wondered, “How would I ever have the kind of impact that I could have had at John Fairfax Ltd. for good?”

I was lost. I had a purpose before, to carry on the legacy of my great-great-grandfather and ensure the company was aligned to that legacy. “How would I find my way?” “What was my purpose now?” 

Crucible experiences are setbacks and failures that fundamentally alter the course of our lives.  They are defining moments.  We have our lives before our crucible moment and our lives after it.  We are not the same.

While crucibles can lead to good and can lead to a place of clarity and of service to others, that is not a given.  For me as for many, the pain when you are in the bottom of the pit is excruciating.  There does not feel like there is any end to the pit. Hope seems illusory.

How do you get out of the pit?  How did I get out of the pit?  For me, it was a long process that lasted years and it wasn’t easy. But, knowing these insights may have helped.

Here are four things I wish I knew when I was at the bottom of the pit…

1. Give yourself permission to grieve.

When you have something traumatic and life altering happen to you, it is going to hurt.

There will be waves of intense feelings.

While I did have some thoughts around how difficult it was navigating the dynamics and relationships in a family business, most of my feelings were directed at myself.  How could I have made such crucial ill-advised assumptions and decisions?  I had an Oxford degree and a Harvard MBA.  How could I have been so dumb?

I needed to realize that grieving is a natural part of the process when you face trauma.  Understanding what happened, the part you played in it, forgiving others, and forgiving yourself is critical and can help you move forward.

2. Feeling broken does not mean you are worthless.

Feeling broken does not mean you are broken forever.  There may be scars, even lifelong scars, but healing can happen.  At the bottom of the pit, the thought that healing is possible or that the waves of despair can lessen and become manageable seems illusory at best.

For me, a key part of my healing was realizing that God loved me unconditionally.  Whether my takeover succeeded or failed, God would still love me.  His love did not depend on what I was going to do for him, or would do.  I came to believe that God did have a plan for my life, just not the one I thought he had for me.

I believe as children of God we all have inherent value.  We are valuable.  We are worthy. Our worth does not depend on our failures or successes or what others may think about us.  We have inherent worth and value as human beings.

3. We are not defined by our worst day. 

We all make mistakes.  We all have setbacks and failures.  Some are our fault.  Some are not.

Even on our worst day, we need to try to realize that as painful as our life may be, there can be another day; a day filled with hope and possibility.  That thought that our lives could have purpose and meaning, that we could contribute to others and in some way to our world, seems hard to believe on our worst day.  While in the pit, we need to make a choice. We need to choose to believe that our life can have purpose.

4. A small step forward can be a defining moment.

In the pit of despair, it is hard to believe that a small step could have any meaning.  But it does.  A small step forward gives hope.  It gives the glimmer of a faint thought that our tomorrows could be better, could improve.  One small step gives the greatest gift we need.  Hope.

For me, that one small step during those early months was a decision my wife and I made to move to Annapolis Maryland in the Fall of 1991 with our then small family.

We had a few month-old son at the time.  We moved to a new environment where we knew some people amid the beauty of Annapolis.  We began to raise our new family.  During the decade of the 1990’s we were to have three kids; two boys and a girl.

That new family gave me hope as I saw the promise of new life.  I eventually found meaningful work using my skills and abilities.  I became a certified executive coach and was on two nonprofit boards whose missions I deeply cared about.  Ultimately those small steps led to the writing of my book, Crucible Leadership, Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance.

That led to what I do now with the mission of Beyond the Crucible, to help people realize that their worst day does not define them.  That they can indeed lead a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.

But it all began with that one small step, to move to Annapolis.

It began with the thought that I may be broken but I was not worthless, that God indeed loved me for who I was despite my mistakes.  And it also began with the thought that while that seemingly grand purpose to lead a large media company in Australia may be gone, I still had a purpose.  And from my perspective, that purpose is as important as the seemingly grand purpose I grew up with.

Any purpose that is on our hearts, that will help and serve others, is important, valuable and worthwhile.

Reflection:

Ready to create a life you love?