What happens when the person in charge fails — and someone else has to step up? In this episode, we dive into Alien as part of our special summer series, Back to a Better Future: The Crucibles of Sci-Fi Cinema. The ship’s captain in Alien represents one of cinema’s most striking examples of poor leadership under pressure — and the film makes clear that when leadership fails, the only path forward is when others on the team rise up and do what they know to be right, regardless of rank or hierarchy. It’s a lesson as relevant in the boardroom and the home as it is on a spacecraft.
Want to explore our three prior summer series about the lessons we can learn about overcoming crucibles from film? Check out these playlists featuring every episode of each one:
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Dallas is a good example of somebody that's not a strong leader. He would rather follow orders that obviously a suspect than doing what's right. He won't do the sane and sensible thing. You've got Kane who has this organism attached to him and he's just going to let Kane back on the ship and they know nothing about this organism. They don't know if it's got some virus or if it's malevolent. I mean, they don't know what's going on, but it's like, "Oh, well, let's not worry about it."
Gary Schneeberger:
Poor leadership, it's the Achilles heel of the ship's captain in the movie Alien, which we discussed this week in the second episode of our special summer series, Back to a Better Future: The Crucibles of Sci-Fi Cinema. As the movie makes clear, the only way to overcome leadership that's lacking is when others on the team step up and do what they know to be right regardless of rank or hierarchy. How can understanding that help you overcome your own crucibles? Stay tuned.
Welcome friends to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. This is our special summer series, which we have called Back to a Better Future: The Crucibles of Sci-Fi Cinema. Why do we do that? We're going to talk about why we did that. First of all, we had so much fun over the last three years that we focused, not over the last three years, over the three years, last two years, and then a couple years back. We've done three years, this is the fourth, where we focused our summer series on the lessons about overcoming crucibles that movies can teach us. And so we had so much fun doing it before we're doing it again. Guess what? We're probably going to do it next summer too.
And after we've done movies that spotlighted heroes, classic movies celebrated by the American Film Institute and last year, movies that feature really major crucible after major crucible after major crucible. In the first episode, I said you've heard of Chock Full o'Nuts coffee, that was Chock Full of Crucibles summer movie series last year. This year we're examining a film genre that's one of Warwick's favorite types of movies and that is science fiction. And the title, as I said, is Back to a Better Future: The Crucibles of Sci-Fi Cinema.
So Warwick, as we start, let me ask you this question. Why movies again? This is the fourth time, as I've said, that we've done this in our summer series. What are you hoping our listeners and viewers get from our discussions this year, these eight films that we're going through?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Gary, both you and I, we love movies and it's interesting when you look at movies from a Beyond the Crucible perspective, because most of us look at movies just to have fun and enjoy them, but it's very different than when you're looking at it, what are the crucibles? How do the characters bounce back? Do they make the right choice? And so what we love about movies from our perspective of Beyond the Crucible is that they typically portray a protagonist who is facing significant challenges that they seek to overcome. Will they be defined by their worst day? Will they overcome the crucible? Will they just do what everybody else is doing and go along? So it's a fascinating way of both looking at crucibles and learning from the characters in those movies, whether they make a good choice or a bad choice. So as you've mentioned, we've in past years looked at movies coming superheroes, sports heroes, historical heroes, significant crucibles as well as the American Film Institute's top 100 movies. So it's something we both enjoy and there's so many lessons that we can learn from looking at these movies.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's interesting that you say, and it's true, you watch movies, we watch movies for this series much differently than we watch movies just for entertainment. And that's not to say, I think it's important to say that's not to say that this is like being at the museum of homework and vegetables. I mean, it's not drudgery to do it. It's actually quite exciting to do it, right? To be able to find those things and it shows us just how universal this concept of moving beyond your crucible is. I think that makes it more exciting even if it's different, doesn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. There's something about movies that they're larger than life and typically the crucibles, the characters, are facing are larger than life, but that really highlights both the heroism and the poor choices occasionally that the protagonist make. So it's really a great way of highlighting some significant issues in a kind of an enjoyable way in a sense. It's a fun thing that we enjoy doing and we hope people will enjoy learning from some of these famous characters.
Gary Schneeberger:
And for you, this summer series about sci-fi cinema is particularly enjoyable because that is one of your favorite film genres. Why do you love science fiction films, not just films, but other aspects of science fiction? Why do you love them so much and what about them is particularly resonant for discussing crucibles and how we move beyond them?
Warwick Fairfax:
I've loved science fiction from a very early age, both in movies, TV shows, and indeed, books. One of the most influential science fiction films ever made was 2001: A Space Odyssey. It came out in 1968. And what I loved about that was it showed you future technologies such as space shuttles with screens on the seat in front of you, which is commonplace now in airlines, but didn't exist back in the '60s. You had talking computers, as they say, sentient computers that had intelligence. They couldn't just answer questions, they could actually almost think in a sense, and video conferencing and other technologies.
And one of these shows I was a big fan of was the original Star Trek TV series from 1966 to '69. I also read widely in science fiction novels, books by Arthur C. Clarke who wrote the screenplay for 2001: A Space Odyssey and Isaac Asimov. And so what I like about science fiction and still do is, sure, it explores future technology, which is fascinating. Like in Star Trek, it looks at warp drive, which is speeds that are faster than the speed of light, which scientists can debate whether that's possible or not, but it's fascinating to look at the technology.
But science fiction at its best explores deep societal issues like what is the future of the human race? How will it interact with other forms of life and technology? Will the human race go in a beneficial direction? And when we talk about technology, there's a lot of discussion these days about the future of AI. Is that going to be good for humanity or not? Is there a threat? Is there a danger people discuss these things? So science fiction is really a great way to look at crucibles and how do you overcome significant crucibles, whether it's existential questions like can the human race survive? Will the expansion of humans be across the galaxy and beyond will it be beneficial? Will technology get to the point where it will control humans? These are all very significant questions that science fiction explores. So it's a fun genre and is a rich ground to look at crucibles in.
Gary Schneeberger:
Which is a good one, two punch. It's enjoyable and there's crucibles, as I said at the top, right? A plenty, chock-full of crucibles for sure. And here in episode two of our summer series, we are looking at one movie that is indeed chockfull of crucibles and that is Alien, which is the 1979 movie that's been described and plays out for sure as sci-fi horror. Here's the summary of the film known in the industry as the logline.
"After a commercial space tug crew intercepts an SOS from a desolate planet, they are hunted by a terrifying parasitic alien creature that boards their ship."
I always love how loglines, it's like this expansive big two hour movie and they get it down to like a dozen or more words. Those people in Hollywood know what they're doing. And speaking to people in Hollywood, before we actually get into talking about the ins and outs of the film, in your research, you uncovered some interesting facts, interesting details about Alien. Share those with folks just to warm them up before we get talking about the movie proper.
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed. So as we discussed, Alien came out in 1979 and this was director Ridley Scott's, one of his very first movies. Now he's done so many blockbuster movies, basically anything that the Australian actor, Russell Crowe does, Ridley Scott is the director. He did the one of Gladiator and just some other massive movies. It was also one of Sigourney Weaver's, who is the star here, plays character Ripley, it was one of her earliest movies and might be the first one when she was actually the star. And what's interesting is there was a time in maybe the late '60s, early '70s when science fiction wasn't popular, but then Star Wars came out in 1977 and then all the other studios, and I believe this movie was made by 20th Century Fox, everybody was running around saying, "We've got to make a science fiction movie." You know the way Hollywood is, you've worked there.
It's like once something comes out in as a hit, everybody wants to jump on the bandwagon. And so I think this particular studio ran around saying, "Is there anything we can make about science fiction?" And somebody said, "Well, we have this script called Alien." "Alien? Okay, great. It's ready? Let's make it." So it was sort of like, you got the script, we've got to make a movie about science fiction, let's go. So this is at the time, I think it got modest reviews, but interestingly enough, over time this has been seen as one of the top science fiction movies. So it's funny how movies when they come out, they might get so-so reviews, but later on as critics look at it in the course of examining sci-fi history and culture, they can reassess it and say, "Actually, this is a really good movie." This is one of those movies. It didn't come out with a bang, but its reputation increased over time.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And to your point about how Hollywood loves to copy each other, it's because of the success of science fiction films in Hollywood. The only time in a James Bond film that what is at the end of the movie and "Bond will return in..." whatever the name of the movie is, the only time that that was not correct because they put, I think it was For Your Eyes Only maybe up, but at the time Star Wars was out, as you said. And lo and behold, they had one that they were going to make called Moonraker, which had been written by Ian Fleming and they swapped the movies and Moonraker came out first to capitalize on the Star Wars mania. So Roger Moore got to go to space.
All right, let's get to talking about this movie Alien and let's begin as the opening credits unfurl, we're given the setup of this film. And at first it doesn't seem all that action packed, right? There's a core of seven folks on this spaceship. It's a towing vehicle called the Nostromo and on it they do refinery work that processes 20 million tons of mineral ore and they are returning to earth. That's the screen card that goes up. You're watching that movie and you're going, "Oh boy, this isn't going to be very exciting." But that initial scene is pretty run-of-the-mill, yes, it's pretty matter of fact given what is to come and there's no hint early on of the action and/or the danger that is to come. Why is that an effective opening, especially for a film that builds itself as sci-fi horror?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So you're right, Gary. Alien starts off pretty quietly and Nostromo is this commercial towing vehicle making its way back to earth. This isn't some like battleship or like battlestar in Star Wars or any of the other... Or in Star Trek. This isn't some elite crew in this state of the art top of the line spaceship that's ever been built at the time. This is just this commercial towing vehicle. It has a crew that almost seems bored. They're pretty relaxed. They certainly don't seem to be this crack, well-trained military type of crew, iron discipline, inquiring minds here to explore space and go beyond where people have ever gone before in Star Trek terms. It just seems like this is a job that pays the bills and it's not something they're really excited about. They're going after wherever they're going, finding material, refining it, bringing it back, then they go back again. It's just this boring kind of job that somebody's got to do it.
And so there's really no hint of what's going to happen, of the perseverance, ingenuity, and courage that are going to be required. So often crucibles happen to people who seem to be unprepared and don't feel like they're heroes at all, whether it's World War II or some cataclysmic event, something happens that really tests the medal of the man or woman who's in the arena, so to speak. Some will be found wanting and others will rise to the occasion, but it's amazing how ordinary people can do extraordinary things depending on the circumstances. So yes, this movie starts off in a pretty relaxed kind of manner in which you're thinking, "Okay, we've got this towing spaceship with this pretty lackluster crew, okay, and so we're watching this movie and should we walk out? I mean, what's going on here?" It doesn't start with the bang, that's for sure.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And that's common in the horror film genre. Earth-based horror films tend to be sleepy towns and everybody's like, "Oh, it's just an average everyday thing going on." And then all of a sudden the horror hits. And that's what happens here. And the ship's computer starts it all off. It's called Mother and it wakes the crew up from stasis, they're onboard sleep in pods to tell them about a signal it's received. It's a beacon and the policy of the company they work for, the seven folks on this ship is that they have to go investigate it, the crew does. So the captain, whose name is Dallas and the executive officer whose name is Kane and the navigator, Lambert, go off to investigate.
Warwick, what happens in this scene that indicates the crew of the Nostromo is about to face a terrifying crucible, right? It begins to tick up from "Not much to see here" to, "Oh, there's going to be something good to see here."
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So things are about to change with the sleepy, relaxed crew. They're not going to be that relaxed for much longer. So some of the crew take off in the shuttle from the main ship to investigate where this transmission is coming from. So they go land on this planet and three of them leave. You've got Kane, Lambert and Dallas. And as they're walking on their space suits on this planet, they see this weird spacecraft is like nothing they've ever seen before and they start climbing into it and investigating. So Kane hears something strange and starts investigating because, well, that's what you do in a horror movie. You see something weird and something scary and you go, "Look."
Gary Schneeberger:
And you run right toward it, not away from it.
Warwick Fairfax:
And of course you go and look yourself. You don't bring other people on, because why would you do that? And so he starts investigating and he goes down into this large cavernous space and he sees this murky pool with lots of eggs. And of course, what does Kane do? Well, he thinks it's a great idea to decide to walk amongst these eggs, what could go wrong. So he's doing that. So Kane decides to walk amongst these eggs and he sees something moving in one of the eggs. Something seems to be alive. Now the egg opens and an organism flies out onto Kane's helmet. So Dallas and Lambert bring Kane back to the shuttle, which then docks with the main ship, the Nostromo. So they want to bring Kane back onto the ship for medical care. Now meanwhile, Mother lets Ripley know that the transmission from the beacon is a warning and not an SOS. Now they've not deciphered the whole message. They don't quite know what that message means other than it's not an SOS. It's some kind of warning.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And this is where Ripley, right, Sigourney Weaver, who's the warrant officer, even though she's third in command, she makes a bold stand when the crew that has been investigating the beacon returns to the ship.
What does she do, Warwick, and how does the action she takes or tries to take spotlight the importance in a crucible of doing what you think is right regardless of opposition or even hierarchy because she does something very pivotal to help you through a crucible.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's well said. So at this point, the shuttle has docked with the main ship and Dallas and Lambert, they want to bring Kane back onto the ship for medical attention, but Ripley doesn't want to let them pass the airlock. So that's an airlock and the folks in the shuttle, Dallas, Lambert and Kane, they can't get back in without somebody on the main ship opening the airlock and Ripley doesn't want to do this because she says they should follow protocol, which is 24 hours for quarantine because there's some organism that's on Kane, maybe that wouldn't be safe. And so Ripley won't open the hatch, but Dallas, that is the captain, orders that the hatch be opened and Ripley says, "No."
She understands the order, but she believes that order is wrong. And you could say if it was a military term, it's not valid, you're not following a valid order, if you will. It goes against protocol, at least for quarantine. But Ash, the science officer, he opens the hatch anyway because Ash is on the main ship. So now we see that the Kane has this organism, it's attached and wrapped around his head. It's not just on his helmet, it's just on his actual head. And so Ash and Dallas try to get it off, but they can't. And so then they make an incision into the creature and this liquid pours out and it's like acid. It just eats through the decks of the ship and they're thinking it's going to create a hole in the whole ship. And so they run around, try to stop it leaking everywhere.
And so then there's this fascinating conversation in which Ripley says to Ash that Ash let Kane and the organism in when Ripley says, "I'm the senior officer on the ship." Yes, Dallas is the captain, but he's on that shuttle, and in terms of who has to make the decision on the ship to let them in, Ripley says, "I'm the senior person." And Ripley says that Ash forgot the quarantine law, but Ash says, "Kane's only chance of survival was to bring him on the ship." And so Ripley says, "Okay, yeah, but by breaking quarantine Ash, you're risking everybody's life." And Ash says, well, that was a risk that he was prepared to take. And Ripley says, "Well, that's a pretty big risk."
Now, Ripley could have said, "Well, that wasn't your decision to make. You feel like you believe that was a risk that was worth taking but not your call, but Ash makes that decision anyway. So both Dallas, the captain, and Ash, the science officer, want to bring Kane as an organism attached back on the ship, Ripley does stand her ground against Dallas and Ash and tell them that risked the health of the crew, but she's countermanded basically. Dallas overrules her and Ash ignores what Ripley wanted to do. So this is a good example of Ripley stands up for what is right. Irrespective of the consequences on her career, or indeed how she's going to get on with her colleagues, you assume that they're going to be taking more journeys together on this towing vehicle.
What this highlights is that it's easy when those around you and who work for you are pushing the course of action just to go along. Even when you don't think it's right, it's like, look, why buck the system? This is the company line. This is what all my colleagues want to do. Let's just go along. And so you could say, look, I'm not the decision maker. It's not my responsibility, but I'm reminded of the phrase that bad things happen when good people do nothing.
So Ripley is one of those people that will stand up and do what is right irrespective of what the captain thinks or, as we'll see, what the company thinks. Ripley is somebody that will do what is right no matter what, but it would seem like she is the only one on that ship. And sadly, I think many of us will find ourselves in situations where we might think of ourselves as the only person in the company in our group, in our neighborhood that will do what is right. Sadly, it often feels like there aren't that many because most people are like, "Why fight this? We're probably going to lose. What's the point? We don't want to be the only one standing up and everybody else is going to say, 'What's your problem? Come on. Just go along. It's the easy path.'"
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And you mentioned that the other folks on the ship don't really have that same perspective, that same courage that Ripley has. And it's particularly difficult both in her case and in the cases of all of us because the actions are inactions of the guy in charge, Captain Dallas point to another critical truth about navigating a crucible, that they can get worse, much, much worse if you keep moving forward without a plan. And that's what Captain Dallas does. He allows the ship's science officer, Ash, to make a critical decision despite Ripley's growing distrust of him. How does the captain's weakness and lack of fortitude deepen the crucible they're facing? Because again, this is, as I said at the top, a lot of crucibles coming together and this one's rooted in Captain Dallas just not having the fortitude to do what's right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's so true. So after they're in the infirmary with Kane, they notice that the creature is gone and it's not on Kane's face. While they look for it, an organism falls from the ceiling and drops on Ripley. Now, fortunately it seems to be dead and as they're looking at it, kind of [inaudible 00:25:06] it, trying to figure out what it's made of. And Ash asked Dallas if they can bring the organism back, as in back to headquarters where they're going. And Dallas says that science matters are up to Ash as a science officer. So Ripley says, "That doesn't make sense." Dallas says, "Well, it's up to the company and we have to do what the company says." And Ripley says she doesn't trust Ash. So Dallas is just going on along with the company line, "Hey, it's really not my call. It's up to Ash as a science officer." And he's just avoiding responsibility.
Ripley meanwhile is standing up for what is right because she wants to ensure the safety of the crew, let alone those that might come into contact with the ship and the crew when the ship returns. Dallas, on the other hand, is just saying, "Yep, not my problem. I'm just doing what I'm told to do." Toeing the company line, whether that makes sense, whether it's right or not, not my problem. So Dallas is a good example of somebody that's not a strong leader. He would rather follow orders that obviously a suspect that doing what's right. He won't do the sane and sensible thing. You've got Kane who has this organism attached to him and he's just going to let Kane back on the ship and they know nothing about this organism. They don't know if it's got some virus or if it's malevolent. I mean, they don't know what's going on, but it's like, "Oh, well, let's not worry about it."
So sadly, there are too many leaders like Dallas who will not stand up for their superiors or company policy and they'll just acquiesce by basically saying, "Hey, it's not my problem. It's not my decision." And they just acquiesce. It's just so common. People often are willing to pass the buck.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's interesting. It just popped in my head in a movie called Alien, it's alien for everybody except Ripley to make strong decisions rooted in principle and rooted in courage and rooted in knowing what's going on. That's just for whatever reason, that just popped in my head.
So the next scene, Warwick, is one of the film's most horrific, most horror inducing scenes. And remember, this is a horror movie, even though it's a sci-fi horror movie. That scene happens next. Talk a little bit about what happens in that scene and why it pushes and how it pushes the plot forward.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Kane who had that creature on him, he wakes up and he seems to be fine and they're all eating a meal together. Everything's going well. They're laughing, having a good time. And as we're learning, so the spoiler alert, when things seem to be going well in a horror movie, it is not a good sign. It won't last. So enjoy it while you can. Just goad yourself, something bad is going to happen. I just know it. And indeed that is what happens. So we see that Kane seems to be ravenous. It's like he's eating way more than you would think a normal person would.
Gary Schneeberger:
Especially when he just woke up, right,-
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Gary Schneeberger:
... who just woke up from not doing anything.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. And then Kane starts writhing and shaking and screaming. He's obviously sick. Something bad is going on here and a creature comes out of his chest and it has teeth. I mean, at this point, it's a small little creature and the creature runs away. Kane is dead at this point and they send his body off into space and they all run around now looking for the creature throughout the ship. So one moment you're having a nice meal and the next moment this weird creature comes out from this guy's chest and runs off. So it just from in a nanosecond, it goes from being a calm time to what the heck is going on here.
Gary Schneeberger:
So the alien that had affixed itself to Kane's face and then got on his face and got some probes down into his... And somehow was then in his stomach and then burst out and now he's on the loose, which is Ripley's worst fear back to, where on quarantine, they didn't listen to her. So her worst fear now has come to life. What happens next because more worse fears keep coming now?
Warwick Fairfax:
They sure We do. The crew has a cat, Jones or Jonesy as they call it, and this cat sets off a sense that the team has developed to allow them to catch the alien as it moves around the ship. So they've sort of tested out this technology, it does work. When Jones sets off one of the motion sensors, Brett, an engineering technician, goes to find him and Brett encounters the alien. Well, at this point the alien is not small, it's massive and it kills him. And Ash says the creature has adapted well. Again, a bit of foreshadowing. There's a little bit of too much admiration in Ash's voice.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Dallas then devises a plan to force the creature off the ship with an airlock. So Dallas wants to chase this creature into an airlock and then let it off into space. And so Dallas asked Mother, the computer, about alternative plans to kill the alien, but the computer seems to be unable to answer the questions. The Mother has nothing, so to speak. It's just not helpful. Its answers are like uncertain, basically, "I don't know". So then Dallas enters these air ducts with a flame thrower, but is ambushed and killed by the alien. So what this movie does a good job of is it shows you hints of violence. You'll see this creature come up behind Brett. You'll hear screams from Dallas, maybe a hint of a creature about to get him. But then it cuts away leaving a lot to the imagination, which really the best kind of horror movies is when it's your imagination that is thinking, "What exactly happened? I know he's dead, but ..." So Ridley Scott does a great job in directing this movie.
Gary Schneeberger:
So Ripley is now in charge of the ship and she has her suspicions and has had, you could tell the way she looked at them. She's had her suspicions about Ash and she has them confirmed in one of the most pivotal scenes in the movie. Let's take a look and a listen to that scene.
Movie Clip:
Ash: There is an explanation for this, you know?
Ripley: Is there really? I don't wanna hear your goddamn explanation. Ash, open the door. You open the door.
Parker: Get her up, get her up. It's a robot, Ash is a goddamn robot. Holy shit! Shit! Help me get this f...ing thing off! Oh, God. God, Jesus.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, that scene, not easy to watch, very jarring to watch. That scene makes everything that has come before though makes sense, doesn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It really does. So with Dallas Dead, Ripley now has access to Mother and she wants to know how to kill the creature. So Ripley is now acting captain and she has access to Mother and some of the information there. So Mother says that their orders are to retrieve the creature and that the crew is expendable. So in the scene we see that Ripley confronts Ash who comes up behind her while she's reading this message from Mother and Ash says that there is an explanation and Ripley angry, she just tears off and Ash traps Ripley in a part of the ship and with superhuman strength hurls Ripley to the ground. Now Ash then forces Ripley down and gets this rolled up magazine and puts it down Ripley's throat. At this point you're wondering what's going on with Ash putting a rolled up magazine down Ripley's rote and you wonder if Ash wants to pour something down Ripley's throat.
I mean, it's the kind of thing that you would think may happen. So Parker comes from behind Ash and hits Ash with this metal tube. So when Ash's head almost comes off, we see that Ash is a robot. And then we see that Ash has been protecting the creature all along. Ripley asks Ash about the special order. Ash says it was to bring back the life form that is priority one. All other priorities are rescinded. Parker curses Ash and a company who clearly don't care about their lives. Ripley asks Ash how to kill it and Ash says, "You can't."
Now at this point, I think we see that the creature is actually within Ash. So it's a very weird thing that we see going on here. So Ash says that the creature's structural perfections is only matched by its hostility. Ash admires its purity. It is unclouded by conscience or morality. Ash says he can't lie about their chances almost smiling and says they have his sympathies. At this point they pull the plug on Ash. So it seems like Ash is being protecting the creature all along. Partly maybe it's his orders to protect the creature, bring it back for study. Maybe also the creature is within Ash, but it just seems that Ash has this admiration for this creature. It's sort of structural perfections, it's purity. And Ash admires the fact that the creature is unclouded by conscience or morality. I mean, what a thing to admire. Yeah, Ash is clearly in the camp of this very malevolent creature.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And as you were describing that, it just occurs to me, you mentioned Parker, who I don't think we've introduced yet. He's the one of the seven we haven't talked about. Parker is one of the engineers. So he's a very no nonsense kind of rough and gruff and physically intimidating guy. So that's why he takes the big metal tube to Ash and ends Ash's sentience, if you will, eventually. But with no hope of defeating the alien, Ripley decides that she has to initiate the self-destruct sequence and abandon the ship. But it's not as simple as that, Warwick. What happens next?
Warwick Fairfax:
So Ripley is now, again, clearly in command. You've just got Ripley and Lambert and Parker left. So Ripley says to the other two, "Okay, I'm going to go prepare the shuttle." And she's hoping to kill the creature when the ship self-destructs because they have no idea how to kill it. And she tells the other two, Lambert and Parker, to go collect some critical supplies and equipment for the shuttle for when they take off. While Lambert and Parker are gathering supplies, you see that this alien creature kills both of them. You see it's put some sharp part of itself right through Parker and then put some tentacle around Lambert. So you just see hints of that. So now alone, Ripley starts the self-destruct process, but the alien blocks her root to the escape show. And so Ripley narrowly escapes and turns back to abort the self-destruct sequence because she feels like "I'm running out of time", but she fails to return to where this self-destruct mechanism is before the override option expires.
So with only a few minutes left to evacuate, Ripley frantically returns to the shuttle and finds that the alien is gone. She takes Jones the cat with her and she boards the ship and launches it seconds before the Nostromo explodes.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. So she's in the shuttle, ship's blowing up. End of story, right? Roll credits. Nah, come on. This is a horror film, folks. There's on jolt, one shocking surprise left. Alien still has one scary surprise left. Describe what happens next and that is indeed what happens last in Alien.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Ripley is now in the shuttle and you think all is well. Again, never a good sign, certainly not in a horror movie. So we see the main ship blow up and it blows up in a massive explosion. Ripley says under her breath, "I got you, you son of a blank."
Gary Schneeberger:
Blimp, yep.
Warwick Fairfax:
[inaudible 00:41:45]. Fill in the details. Ripley almost seems comatose. When you've gone through this crucible that Ripley has gone through and you've been running for your life and then you feel like you're finally out of danger, you just sort of sit back and take a breath and you're almost sort of numb after the whole experience. And she does feel like almost comatose from that experience. But then she sees, on the other side of the shuttle, this creature crawling around and she races to get away and she hides among the spaces. I mean, this shuttle is not big and she has an idea. So she climbs into one of the space suits and puts the helmet on and she gets like the spear gun and she comes out of hiding almost singing to herself under her breath because she has a plan and she starts pushing buttons and what Ripley does is she sucks the air out of the shuttle and then opens the airlock.
Now she has a spacesuit on, so this is obviously all planned and the creature is beginning to be sucked out of the shuttle. But before getting sucked out of the shuttle, the creature tries to hang on, it's got its tentacles on either side of the airlock, the opening of the airlock and Ripley shoots it with a spear gun and it finally lets go. So then we see that Ripley closes the airlock, puts air back in the shuttle and takes her spacesuit off. So at this point she thinks, "Okay, we're good," but not yet.
Gary Schneeberger:
Not yet.
Warwick Fairfax:
So this creature is trying to crawl back in where the rocket tubes are. And so Ripley turns on the rockets and the creature is finally blown away. So at this point, Ripley then begins to make a final report in her log and she says, the other members of the crew are dead. The cargo and the ship are destroyed and she'll reach base in about six weeks. She says, "This is Ripley the last survivor of the Nostromo signing off." Ripley hugs the cat and talks to the cat because it's the only left and says, "Come on, cat," and hugs it. And so Ripley is in a cryopod and the movie ends.
One of the interesting things to note in this movie is you do see some humanity on the part of Ripley in that Ripley goes to great lengths to save the cat and that's definitely a priority. She's not this callous cold person. She's trying to save everybody, but in the end, it's only Ripley and Jones, the cat, that survive.
Gary Schneeberger:
And what's interesting, right? That's the end of the movie, but it's not the end of the Alien cinematic universe. They've made how many sequels? They've made like three or four sequels to this movie, including some in which the alien fights the predator from the Predator movies. I've never seen any of them, but this film, this antagonist definitely has legs going forward. Sigourney Weaver comes back for at least two more movies. There's something about this idea of an alien from space that is indestructible in everything that Ash said, it has no humanity. It has no morality. There's something about that that is appealing to moviegoers, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It really is true. Yeah. As you mentioned, you've got that movie Predator with Arnold Schwarzenegger and it is an alien-like creature. It's very malevolent and kills everybody except Arnold Schwarzenegger and he's sort of clambering over rocks and streams with kind of camouflage on. And this whole alien genre, there's quite a few Alien-like movies that come out after this. It's just sort of your worst nightmare to see this malevolent creature. You don't know what it is, where it's come from. All you know is it wants to kill you. That seems to be its mission in life. So yes, it spawned a very scary genre of movies.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. All right. So we don't talk about these movies, Warwick, just enjoy the films as we said at the outset, right? We don't watch them just for entertainment. We watch them because there's crucibles in them and we want to help folks who go through crucibles, learn some lessons from these movies about how to do that. So how do the crucibles that the characters in Alien go through offer us insight into how to move beyond our own crucibles, especially, and this is important, in the face of challenging circumstances, yes, but even scary circumstances, which are definitely at play in Alien. How does this movie help us navigate our own crucibles?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Alien highlights that dichotomy between those who will do what is right and those that will not and the severe consequences that ensue. So clearly that happens here. Ripley is concerned about letting Kane back on the ship with an organism on him. She understandably and rightly wants to invoke quarantine. Dallas, on the other hand, the captain, he just goes along with a company line and supports the science officer. "Hey, it's not my responsibility. Company, they want to investigate life and maybe there's a profit in it. And besides it's not my decision, it's a science officer's decision or it's the company's decision. It's really anybody's decision other than me. Not my problem."
The other really sad thing here is the company clearly values potential profit that the creature might bring over the safety of the crew. It is clear that the crew are expendable. It's all about profit. It's all about leveraging this alien creature for some benefit of the company. They can always find other crew. So there are powerful lessons in Alien. Are we going to do what is right like Ripley or are we going to go along with a company line like Dallas and Ash do? "Hey, it's not my problem, not my responsibility. I don't have a choice. I'm just doing what I'm told to do. I'm just going to do what's expected. I don't want to make enemies with the people I work with. Certainly I don't want to make enemies with the powers of be or my bosses above me."
So are we going to do what Ripley does or do what Dallas and Ash do? Are we going to lead a company that only cares about the bottom line or that cares about people? It's often in the corporate world, you're constantly concerned about earnings per share and got to constantly increase profit. Maybe we'll have to right size, which means lay off some people, but it's just a few and hey, I don't know that I really need to do this, but if I don't hurt the quarterly profits and I don't think I can explain to the shareholders and investors and let's just do what's expedient, let's just do what's easy.
So are we going to be that kind of a leader or are we going to work for a company whose values that are completely against ours? Maybe it's like, "Well, it's a paycheck," or it might be, "This company pays really well. I just have to go along to get along and, hey, I just work here. I don't set the company values." And the challenge is you go along with one poor decision after another or you just acquiesce to them and pretty soon you've moved as we find in Star Wars from the light into the dark side.
It happens a bit like a lobster boiling step by step. And so this movie shows that our decisions on some of these powerful questions, they have significant consequences. The repercussions of our decisions might be much bigger than we realize. It's so easy to say, "Well, it's just a white lie and doesn't everybody cheat on their taxes?" And "I didn't lie. I just didn't tell the whole truth. I left out some key facts, but hey, I didn't murder anybody, right? I mean, it's not a capital crime. It's just something little." But something little eventually becomes bigger and then it becomes so big that it's too late to back out because backing out might mean loss of reputation or even worse, maybe prison. So you may think, "Oh, that will never happen to me." Well, it's easier than you think if on bad decision, one unethical decision after another in some cases, molehills can grow into mountains.
You don't want to be that person that starts off as somebody that just didn't do anything that wrong, but one poor decision after another, one acquiescing to somebody's orders after another leads you to be a person that you don't even recognize and at that point you feel like it's too late.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, the house lights are back on. Our feature is over for this week. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Back to a Better Future: The Crucibles of Sci-Fi Cinema. Next week we will have another film where we will discuss the crucibles there and the lessons you can learn from them. And I'm going to do it, Warwick, I'm going to ask Scott, give me a drum roll here so I can tell everybody what the next film is. Excellent. Next time we are going to talk about Terminator 2: Judgment Day and I'll leave you with this folks, just so you know, we'll be back. See you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like "the helper" or "the individualist". Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
What happens to your sense of self when everything you’ve known is suddenly turned upside down? In this episode, we dive into Planet of the Apes, the classic sci-fi film that used a stranded astronaut’s nightmare scenario to hold a mirror up to the chaos and disillusionment of late 1960s America. This is the first episode of our special summer series, Back to a Better Future: The Crucibles of Sci-Fi Cinema. We examine the film’s central crucibles, chief among them, how you muster the resilience to keep moving forward when your entire world has been inverted. What do Taylor’s struggles on screen reveal about your own capacity to survive disorientation, loss of identity, and a world that no longer makes sense? These are the questions we’re digging into this season.
Want to explore our three prior summer series about the lessons we can learn about overcoming crucibles from film? Check out these playlists featuring every episode of each one:
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. And Taylor was finally captured. He's holed up in a net. And Taylor for the first time speaks in front of the ape, his neck must have healed enough. And as he saw and heard, he says, "Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape." Now the apes, they are stunned. You cannot deny Taylor's intelligence. This is no mere mimicry. This is intelligence.
Gary Schneeberger:
In this pivotal moment from the movie Planet of the Apes, a stranded astronaut reveals he's not the animal the ruling class of apes believes him to be. This week in the first episode of our special summer series, Back to a Better Future, The Crucibles of Sci-Fi Cinema, we examine the film's central crucibles, including how you muster the resilience to keep moving forward when everything you've known is turned upside down. How can understanding these crucibles help you overcome your own? Stay tuned.
Well, friends, welcome to another episode of Beyond the Crucible. And I want you to do one thing before we start, find a calendar and look at it, because if it's summer, guess what we're doing? Beyond the Crucible is starting its special summer series. And we had so much fun the last three years where we have done this on films. We focused our summer series on the crucibles, the things you can learn about overcoming crucibles from movies. We did another one before the last, this is the fourth time we've done films as the basis for diagnosing how you get beyond your crucible, and we're doing it again this year.
Now, after doing movies the first year that spotlighted heroes, then we spotlighted classic movies that were celebrated by the American Film Institute, AFI. And then last year we did movies that had just a whole, you've heard of Chock Full o'Nuts coffee. This was Chock full of Crucibles, films that were full of crucibles that we could then unpack to help you get through your crucibles. And now we're moving to the fourth year of our summer series in films. You know what, Warwick? I'm going to call for a drum roll since we're going to... Scott, give me a drum roll before I tell folks what the name of the series is this year. One, two, three, go. There it is. We are calling it this year, folks, Back to a Better Future: The Crucibles of Sci-Fi Cinema.
And Warwick, before I say anything else and before we do anything else and dive into the film that we're discussing this week, why movies again? I asked you this question last time for the summer series, why movies again? This is the fourth time I said that we've done cinema for our summer series. What are you hoping listeners and viewers get out of our discussions this year?
Warwick Fairfax:
Both you and I, Gary, we love movies. We love looking at movies from a Beyond the Crucible perspective. It's funny, when you watch a movie just for fun, it's very different than when you're watching it from a Beyond the Crucible perspective, because we're looking to see, as is the case in really all of the movies we review is, we're looking at a protagonist that's facing significant crucibles and significant challenges that they have to overcome. And it's really a test of character. In some of the movies, many of them, they ride to the occasion and become better versions of themselves, their heroism, their self-sacrifice is evident. And in a few movies, actually the reverse happens and somehow they are found wanting, so to speak, when they face a crucible. But either way, we can learn a lot.
So we've covered, as you mentioned, movie superheroes, sports heroes, historical heroes. We've looked at movies from the American Film Institute's top 100 movies. And last year, as you say, we focused on films with significant crucibles. But it's really a proving ground, if you will, movies where you can just see faced with monumental challenges that seems almost like outsized compared to most of us. But still, it's a proving ground of how will they survive, not just physically, but mentally, emotionally, will they rise to the occasion or will they be defined by their worst day? As they say in Star Wars, so to speak, will they go to the dark side, so to speak, as opposed to the forces of light, if you will.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's funny that you mentioned that it's different to watch movies for this than it is just to pop into a theater on a Saturday and watch a movie for purely entertainment, because this has changed the way I watch movies. Now when I'm just watching a movie for entertainment, I'm like, "Oh, that would be a good crucible." I mean, I'm seeing crucibles pop up in just films I watch every day in my life. So you're correct, there's a different lens through which we look at these films. And in particular, I want to ask you, Warwick, why are you so excited about us doing science fiction films this time around? Because you love science fiction films so much. So explain about why you love them so much and why they're particularly resonant for discussing crucible experiences and how we overcome them.
Warwick Fairfax:
I've loved science fiction my whole life, basically both in books, movies, TV shows. I think one of the most influential science fiction films ever made was 2001: A Space Odyssey, it came out in 1968. Remember that date, 1968, folks, it might come up later. So in this movie, you saw future technology with space shuttles. You had screens on the back of seats, which we have now in planes, but didn't exist back then. You had talking, intelligent computers, video conferencing. So it was just amazing, the technology that you saw. And one of the other shows that I was a big fan of was the original Star Trek that aired from 1966 to '69. I also read widely in science fiction, including great sci-fi novels by Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov. Arthur C. Clarke actually wrote the screenplay for 2001 of Space Odyssey.
And so what I really loved about science fiction, and still do, is not only does it explore future technology, but at its best, it explores deep societal issues about the future of the human race and how it'll interact with other forms of life and technology. What is humanity? Are we going to move forward in a way that is benevolent? Are we going to be a force that's not for good? How do we treat each other? How do we treat people that look different than us? All of these things are explored in science fiction.
In science fiction, we see very significant crucibles portrayed. Can the human race survive? Will the expansion of humans across the galaxy be beneficial or not? Will technology get to the point where it will control humans? So you've got these mega overall crucibles as well as the crucibles of the main characters in the stories. So it's one of the reasons why I love science fiction. It explores these deep societal issues. And in some cases, like Star Trek, for the most part, it portrays a benevolent future where humanity actually cares about other people. So yeah, it's some of the reasons I love science fiction.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, folks, if you caught Warwick's little hint about 1968 and you know a lot about science fiction, you may have an idea of what we're going to talk about this week, because we're kicking off our summer series with the original Planet of the Apes, which came out in 1968. Now, since then, it has spawned a whole bunch of sequels back in the '60s and '70s, and then a bunch of reboots in more recent times. But the summary of the movie, if you remember from last year, I read the summary of the film in the log line, Hollywood terminology for what a movie's about. Here's the log line for Planet of the Apes, "An astronaut crew crashes on a distant planet in the future where highly intelligent apes are a dominant species, and humans are mute, enslaved creatures, forcing the sole survivor to fight for his survival and expose the truth."
Now that sounds pretty exciting, doesn't it? And there's a bunch of crucibles that we're going to talk about in the midst of that, which can help you get past your crucibles. But the movie, Warwick, opens with the lead astronaut whose name is Taylor. And they just call him Taylor throughout the whole movie. But later on we learned in the credits, I think it says, his name is George Taylor. So it's George Taylor. And he's recording in this first scene of the film, a video diary of the mission his crew is on. He explains that they're in deep space, that's the phrase he used. And even though they have been gone only six months in their time, by their body clocks, 700 earth years have passed since they blasted off. The scene, just Taylor talking into his microphone while his three other crew members are asleep in their pods where they sleep, reveals him to be both cynical and a little full of himself. How does this initial scene, Warwick, shape what we're about to see later in this film as it goes on and the crucible that Taylor finds himself in?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So as the movie opens, here's Taylor in the spaceship, his three crewmates are in cryogenic pods, which as science fiction writers of long theorized, that if you want to survive in deep space over massive periods of time, obviously you need that kind of technology. So it's just him at that point, he's the only person who's awake. And this log that he's dictating, it shows Taylor to be reflective, but a cynical man. He says he leaves the 20th century with no regrets. He continues and says, "Space squashes a man's ego. He feels lonely. Is man a marvel of the universe? Does he still make war against his brother and keep his children starving?" So clearly Taylor has a dim view of the human race. He's almost happy to be away from it. So he's reflective, but he's just wondering, "What is the point of man? What is the point of humans? Are they a beneficial force in the universe or not?" So he's asking these existential questions at the very beginning of the movie.
Gary Schneeberger:
When Taylor wakes up from his own slumber scene or two later, the film's biggest crucible has been set into motion. Their ship has crashed in a desolate area, the men's female colleague has not only died in her sleep because her pod cracked, but she seems to have been dead for more than a year because she's all wrinkled up on her face. Planet of the Apes is a no hurry. This is one of the beautiful things about this movie to me, it's a no hurry to get to this overarching crucible as the men set out on foot to find a more inhabitable place, to find higher ground.
They believe that they're on a distant planet. Taylor says it's more than 300 light years from earth and that they have been away from earth for more than 2,000 years. And it's funny, because Warwick and I, as we were preparing for this, did a lot of sci-fi math, and that all sinks up. And even though I'm bad at earth math, we did sci-fi math together and that sinks up. But as they walk, we see how deeply jaded Taylor is about the America that they left behind. So talk a little bit, Warwick, about what we come to understand about Taylor in these scenes where he's trying to make sense of where they've landed after his journey in space.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So here we see, here's Taylor and his crew, they've landed in a lake in this incredibly desert place with rocky deserts and high cliffs, and there's not vegetation to be seen anywhere. And so they clamber out of the spaceship and they've got their packs with food and some technology stuff that they need, and they start walking through this stony desert. And it's so isolated. There's thunder and lightning but no rain. There doesn't seem to be a moon. And Taylor, as they're walking with his two crewmates, he rides them hard. He just really gets on their back. And one guy in particular who is called Landon, he just is really merciless. Taylor says really to them all, "We're here. We have to accept reality." And he's sarcastic about the human spirit. And then he says about Landon that basically, "You're on a journey, you're an ego trip. I bet there's probably some decaying, rotting statue of you, Landon, on earth." Basically he said-
Gary Schneeberger:
Great leadership.
Warwick Fairfax:
... "Yeah, you just want to be hero with a legacy. It's all about the ego. That's why you wanted to be on this trip, you just wanted to be this big hero." And Landon admits to Taylor that he has him pegged. Taylor may be merciless, but Landon is basically saying, "You got me." And then he says, Landon about Taylor, that he thinks Taylor believes that life is meaningless. And Taylor says, "Well, he's a seeker." And he says, "There must be something in the universe that is better than man." So clearly Taylor, as we're beginning to see, has a very dim view of mankind. And so he was hoping there's something better out there. And Taylor's view of man is just shown in a very graphical, harsh way when Landon, he plants this small little U.S. flag on the ground, which small is maybe a couple of inches. I mean, it's small. It's not feet.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It's like what kids wave at parades, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And he sticks it in this rocky ground as if, "Gere we are, we're claiming this ground for the United States," or something. And so what's Taylor's reaction? He laughs this sarcastic belly laugh as if, "Oh, come on, really, what's the point? You've got to be kidding me." It's just this savage, sarcastic laugh at landed. It's just merciless. And again, this really shows Taylor's view of the human race, "What's the point? The U.S., the earth, there is no point." Clearly his view of mankind is not good.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And he's going to get some company in his view of mankind not being good in the next scenes that come up in Planet of the Apes. So talk a little bit about the next scenes and the crucible that the astronauts find themself in, because this movie is called Planet of the Apes. So I'm guessing something's about to turn here in the film.
Warwick Fairfax:
Very true. So Taylor and the crew begin to see vegetation a little bit at a time, and they're thinking, "Huh?" Because they're not going to survive too much longer if they have to walk through the desert with their elementary provisions. And so they come across more vegetation. And then finally they see this large waterfall that descends into a pond. And they're thinking, "Hallelujah." There's a pond, there's a waterfall, there's clean drinking water. So they take their clothes off and just dive in and go for a swim. And so at this point they're feeling pretty good about life. Well, meanwhile, we see the outlines of other humans. We don't really see their faces too much. We see arms pulling things. And so these humans, they take away their clothes and their packs, and basically rip their clothes apart. They rip their packs apart and distributes things everywhere. So whatever provisions or technology they had in those packs are now useless, they're just destroyed.
And so the crew begin to see this, and they dash out of the water to try and get their clothes and their packs. And so finally they come across a clearing with a whole bunch of humans who were in skins. I mean, these look like very mute and unkempt, very primitive people. And so just as Taylor and his crew are trying to figure out what's going on here, we hear the sound of apes. And suddenly into the scene we see these gorillas on horsebacks with guns. And the humans are terrified by these gorillas and they flee. And the gorillas, they begin to fire their guns at the humans and try to capture them with nets. And in the frenzy, one of the crew, Dodge, is killed. Taylor is shot in the neck. And Landon and the other crew member is also captured.
And the apes are talking. This is a very different world. I mean, at this point it's clear that these talking apes are in control and the humans are the primitive people that are enslaved, and that the world has been turned upside down. And one of the things that we'll find is, these humans, not only do they not seem very intelligent, they're mute, they don't talk. So the whole world is turned upside down. The apes are in control and the humans are animals basically, who are just being rounded up in nets and shot and captured.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And I love that it takes a bit of time to get to that reveal. We're seeing them, the astronauts are trying to find their way and people are stealing their clothes. And it just seems like it's a normal sci-fi action movie. And then all of a sudden, boom, there's gorillas shooting at them. And the gorillas aren't just shooting at them, they're doing things that human hunters do to their prey. I mean, talk about that a little bit, because you see things that clearly shows the gorillas are the quote unquote "people," as we would say, and the people are the quote unquote "animals."
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So these apes are talking, they're taking photographs of each other on the hunt, because this is a hunt. And you'll even see humans tied upside down by their ankles much the way that people might after hunting deer or elk or some kind of game, they might capture it and hang it up saying, "Hey, look what I've got with my prey. I did pretty well in the hunt." So humans are no more than deer or elk. They're just another type of game to be captured and killed.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I mean, it really shows how the tables have been turned in the Planet of the Apes, in the planet and in the film. The action then shifts a little bit, Warwick, to Taylor in captivity. It's there that he meets an animal scientist, the chimpanzee Dr. Zira, who is fascinated by what she sees in him as an intelligent... That's greater than most humans that she's encountered. She's intuitive and she sees that in him. She's trying to prove that man can be domesticated in her work. And her fiance, another scientist named Cornelius, is conducting research to discover a "missing link," quote unquote. You've heard that phrase before, right, folks? Cornelius wants to find a missing link among the humans that shows how apes came from something, what's the thing that apes came from? He's doing research into that.
Meanwhile, the orangutan, Dr. Zaius, head of the planet's religious and scientific endeavors, is dubious about what the couple is trying to do. "Man is a nuisance," he says. Taylor's unable to speak to Zira and Cornelius because of his neck wound. Remember, he got shot in the beginning when the gorillas were taking control of everything, but he does begin writing them notes that prove his intelligence. Warwick, in these scenes, it's Zira and Cornelius who face some pretty intense crucibles themselves. What trials do they find themselves up against as they study Taylor and try to stay at the same time in the good graces of Dr. Zaius?
Warwick Fairfax:
So Zira is an animal psychologist who wants to understand more about humans. So remember in this world, humans are considered animals. So therefore she's an animal psychologist. And she believes that humans have the capacity for some intelligence. And she also says that there is no biological reason why they cannot speak, because the all the humans are mute on this world. And Dr. Zaius, on the other hand, who's really over Zira, has no time for humans and believes that humans can only do simple mimicry. He says, "Only brain surgery makes sense. Humans are useless. They should be exterminated." And he says, "Simeon, survival." In other words, apes is what is important. So he believes not only are humans are useless, but in an ideal world, there would be no humans. They should be exterminated. That's his view of humans. And Zira's fiance Cornelius, he on the other hand, he's conducting archeological research about apes descending from man. So he's an archeologist and he believes that there's an evolutionary connect between apes and man.
Now these lines of research, whether it's Zira on humans having some capacity for intelligence, and Cornelius looking at the link between apes evolving for men, they're going to get both of them into serious trouble with Dr. Zaius and those in charge. So Zira and Cornelius in a sense, they're trying to advance science, be it through biology or archeology, and they want to understand humans and archeological history, but this is a world where the studies that Zira and Cornelius are conducting are considered criminal activity. They're certainly considered heresy. These are banned lines of inquiry.
Zira sees that Taylor is writing notes because as we mentioned, he can't talk because of the neck wounds he has, but he's writing notes. And as she watches his notes, it's very clear he's intelligent and he's not just some dumb human, that's undeniable, but she knows she will face massive pushback in this area of research from Dr. Zaius. But she's a scientist, she wants to push forward scientific understanding, in this case, biological understanding of humans. So she knows what she wants to do from a scientific perspective, but yet what are going to be the repercussions for her and her career if the powers that be object to her line of heretical inquiry. So she's in a bind.
Gary Schneeberger:
As you're talking about all of that, I just thought of one of those things where watching the movie in the Beyond the Crucible context is different than watching it just to enjoy it. I've always thought it interesting in this movie that the kinds of apes have different jobs. The chimpanzees are scientists, the gorillas are the enforcers, and the orangutans are the leaders. But it's interesting now that I think about it in the context of what you were describing earlier with George Taylor thinking that mankind is backward, has it wrong, still kills their brother, there's a stratification to this society that I have to believe is a little bit of a commentary of what in 1968 was the way that America operated, I would think, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, as we'll see, you can say a lot about human society and its ills and things it's done, and a lot of that is fair commentary, but it's not like this world of apes is some socially evolved-
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, exactly.
Warwick Fairfax:
... community of enlightened folks. It seems that apes are trying to suppress knowledge because of heresy and fear and other unenlightened ways of thinking. And yes, it does seem there is stratification. You've got the chimpanzees, which you say are the scientists. And then in some sense above them, or at least it feels that way, the gorillas are the ones who are the soldiers, the enforcers, the police. And then you've got the orangutans who are the heads of council and leaders. And you don't see a chimpanzee being either an enforcer or the head of the councils, that doesn't happen. So it doesn't seem like an enlightened society. And even if humans are these dumb, mute, unintelligent beings, shouldn't they be treated with care and love? I mean, most enlightened people today believe that animals should be treated fairly and humanely. They shouldn't be just rounded up and killed for sport so to speak. You make a good point, Gary, that it's not like this ape society is so enlightened. It has issues-
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, it's not Nirvana.
Warwick Fairfax:
No, it is certainly not.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So Taylor's crucible gets turned up several notches in the scene that follows what we've just been talking about. He is chased by gorillas. Remember, they're the enforcers. He is chased by gorillas who serve as soldiers through the apes' museum, which features exhibits of humans, includes Dodge, one of Taylor's other crewmates from his spaceflight who has been taxidermied. The scene ends with one of the most notable moments in Planet of the Apes. Let's watch and listen to a clip of that moment.
Dr. Zira:
Taylor, why did you run away?
Speaker 4:
Security, police.
Dr. Zira:
I'm in charge of this man.
Gary Schneeberger:
No longer, madam. He is now in the custody of the Ministry of Science.
George Taylor:
Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape.
Gary Schneeberger:
So Warwick, why is this scene and the scenes that led up to it so pivotal to the direction that Planet of the Apes takes?
Warwick Fairfax:
Before Taylor escapes, there are conversations between Zira, Cornelius, and Dr. Zaius. So Zira and Cornelius are trying to tell Dr. Zaius that Taylor is intelligent and there is evidence of an earlier culture prior to ape-recorded history, into the work that Cornelius had been looking into. It is clear that Dr. Zaius is very hostile to this way of thinking. So we then see Taylor in a cage with gorillas coming to take Taylor to get a lobotomy based on orders from Dr. Zaius. That tells you everything you need to know about Dr. Zaius. He's afraid of Taylor, he wants to squash anything and everything that he's about.
And so as they're about to take Taylor away, Taylor flees for his life and he's running all over the place, as you mentioned, through this museum with these humans that are there, in one case, the stuffed human that used to be his crewmate Dodge. And Taylor was finally captured and he's holed up in a net. And Taylor for the first time, as we saw in this clip, speaks in front of the apes, his neck must have healed enough. And as you saw and heard, he says, "Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape."
And Now the apes, they are stunned. You cannot deny Taylor's intelligence. This is no mere mimicry. This is intelligence. Well, intelligence with attitude, but intelligence nonetheless. And Taylor is now a very real threat to Dr. Zaius and the others in charge. So Taylor by his presence calls into question everything that ape society believes in, everything it was founded on, everything they believe about ape evolution and man's role in society. And so Taylor's now back in a cage with the gorillas yelling at him. And Taylor says in another memorable scene, "It's a madhouse." Clearly Taylor is not in, as you put it, Nirvana, he's not in this magical place. It's like, "What upside down crazy world am I in?" This is not the society he was looking to be a part of when he thought it would be great to escape from the human race. This doesn't seem like a great landing place for Taylor. This isn't this happy place free of human control, far from it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And when I see that, "Get your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty apes," scene, it makes me nostalgic for the days of movie theaters, because that scene is a lot more fun, I bet, in 1968 when you're watching in a crammed theater full of people and that happens and the crowd goes nuts and applauds as opposed to you're watching on your big screen at home. I think we've lost a little something. It has nothing to do with crucibles, but we've lost a little something where those moments can't be shared together in a communal setting.
Warwick Fairfax:
[inaudible 00:31:55].
Gary Schneeberger:
So both Taylor and the scientists are then put on trial, he, Taylor, because Dr. Zaius wants to ensure that he can never procreate, they, the scientists, for scientific heresy. In the debate that follows, there are many points of contention that address the issues in our culture about evolution and other issues like that. If you watch this movie and you see this court scene, you can see a lot of things that point to 1968 America, and in some senses to America today. Those themes get expounded on even more after Zira and Cornelius bust Taylor out to save his life. And the action shifts to the archeological site that Cornelius has been studying. Dr. Zaius turns up and dismisses the evidence, good bureaucrat. Human or ape, there are bureaucrats. He dismisses the evidence and destroys the site after Taylor escapes into the forbidden zone where his spaceship crash-landed.
Warwick, what stands out to you from these scenes? And why does it serve as cultural commentary on life in the 1960s America?
Warwick Fairfax:
So in this courtroom, it's not just Taylor that's on trial, but so are Zira and Cornelius. So this courtroom wants to pretend that Taylor must have been operate on to be able to speak. Humans can't naturally speak, it's a circus trick, that they must have done something to him. And Zira and Cornelius have been accused of scientific heresy. And obviously nobody believes that he's from another planet, which is what Taylor claims. And when they go out to find his other crew members, because he said, "Hey, I'm not alone. I had some other crew members with me," because he knows that Dodge was killed, but he doesn't know what happened to Landon. And so Taylor goes and he sees Landon, but he sees the side of Landon's head has been shaved and there's surgery. He sees that he's been lobotomized. So now Landon is just some mute, sadly, unintelligent being like other humans. And Taylor just yells at them and says, "You bloody baboons." It's like, "What have you done to my crewmate?" He's just horrified by what he sees. And Dr. Zaius, interestingly enough, rather than just admit it, for some reason he says that Landon suffered brain injury, maybe he had a head trauma and there was an operation that was needed.
And so at that point with all this going on, after this courtroom, we see Cornelius and Zira break Taylor out of prison and flee. Now Dr. Zaius says Zira and Cornelius will be indicted for heresy and that Taylor will have experimental surgery done to him so that he will be a living death. I mean, there's a scene in which Dr. Zaius talks to Taylor and basically says, "We're going to do experimental surgery onto you. And that will be like a living death." And Taylor knows what that means, he's seen Landon. And so it's just a horrific scene. And so Zaius says that Taylor is a menace, a walking pestilence. So we see Cornelius and Zira, as we've mentioned, break Taylor out of prison. And they go through the desert and eventually they end up in a cave that lies beside the sea. Now, this is a cave where Cornelius has been doing his archeological research. And so Cornelius says that there are tools and bones at this site from 1,300 years ago.
What's interesting, as we've mentioned, is that Dr. Zaius turns up and he has his henchman of gorillas, because he suspects, "Where's Cornelius going to go to?" He's going to go to the forbidden zone, to this cave where his research is. And so in the scene, not only do we have Zira and Cornelius and Taylor, but we also have Dr. Zaius there in this cave. Now one of the other things to mention is that when Taylor was in this prison, there was a human woman there who he calls Nova. She, like other humans, is mute, limited intelligence, but they form a bond, and he takes her with them as he's escaping from prison. And so again, here we are in the cave, Zira, Cornelius, Taylor, Dr. Zaius and this woman, Nova, and they're looking at these tools and bones from 1,300 years ago, but then they see there are artifacts from 700 years before that, which show an ancient culture that was more advanced.
And what's interesting is they find a human doll beside the bones of a man, not an ape. Remember, humans are meant to be these unintelligent people. You don't see animals with dolls, not unless a human has given it to them.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Dogs have toys. They don't have little babies.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And they don't get it themselves, you know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
People provide it to them. Anyway, so we see this human doll beside the bones of a man. And then Taylor sees a man who wore false teeth, eyeglasses, and some kind of a heart valve. Those are all evidence of a bygone culture of some sophistication. So here we have this human woman, Nova, and Nova squeezes the doll, and that doll says, "Momma," much like dolls today would say. But here's the thing, Taylor asked Dr. Zaius this question. He says, "Why would an ape make a human doll that talks?" Because remember, humans are mute, they have no intelligence. So why would you do that? It makes no sense. There is no answer to that question. And Dr. Zaius, as we'll find, is not surprised for what they're finding, because I think he's been there before. But then Dr. Zaius fires this back. He says, "If man is so superior, why didn't he survive? Where are these intelligent humans today if they even existed?" No real good answer to that question either.
So then we hear gunfire outside and everybody rushes out. We see that the gorillas are there and they're armed. Taylor captures Dr. Zaius and he makes the gorillas retreat. And he says to Dr. Zaius, "Look, I want a horse, I want a gun and provisions for myself and for Nova," the woman that's been with him on this trip. And they want to just get away. Dr. Zaius lets them go. He wants to get rid of them. But before they leave, we see that Dr. Zaius has the cave entrance dynamited, because he wants to erase all evidence of what was found. And this harkens comes back to something earlier when we had Taylor in an outside cage. And before they knew he could speak, when his throat was still damaged, he writes some letters on the ground that Nova erases. And he gets angry at Nova. Well, then there are other letters that haven't been erased. Well, Dr. Zaius sees those letters and erases them. There's no hint of surprise at all on his face. So Dr. Zeus knows that there was human intelligent life at one point on that planet.
So none of this is a surprise. He wants to, as one of the religious leaders, erase all evidence of intelligent human life. And so he wants this cave dynamited, which he does. So then as Zaius is lying tied up, he says this to Taylor, he quotes from the 29th scroll of the ancient ape laws. And what he's about to say, it is haunting. This is what the ape scrolls say. It says this, "Beware the beast man, alone among primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yay, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle layer for he is the harbinger of death."
So that's what Dr. Zaius thinks of humankind. And then he goes on to say that all his life he was afraid of someone like Taylor, somebody that would be like those intelligent humans that he's discovered on this archeological dig, I'm guessing years ago. And Dr. Zaius says this, "Man's wisdom must go hand in hand with his idiocy. Emotions must rule his brain, a war-like creature who will hurt everything around him." And then Dr. Zaius says, "The forbidden zone was once a paradise. And then man made a desert of it."
So in these scenes, we see why Dr. Zaius is so afraid of Taylor and the work that Zira and Cornelius are doing, Zira showing that mankind has the capacity for intelligence, and Cornelius that there was indeed intelligent human life at one point on this planet, extremely threatening to ape culture and everything that Dr. Zaius believes in. So he believes, Dr. Zaius, that humans are a menace and only bring destruction. They should be in cages, if not ideally be exterminated. There should be no trace whatsoever of humans' prior civilization or their technology.
So in the late 1960s, as we think of the time when this movie came out in 1968, you had both civil rights movement, you had the Vietnam War, you had the assassinations of Dr. Martin Luther King and President John F. Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. So there probably would've been many at the time who wondered, "What is the value of the human race?" Look at the assassinations. Look at the bigotry that necessitated the civil rights movement. Look at what's happening to what was perceived at the time as the quagmire of the Vietnam War going after years costing enormous amounts of lives.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And before I get to the big reveal of the movie, I'm going to do a little reveal since we have time to do this. And actually, Warwick, in 1988, I interviewed Charlton Heston who played Taylor, and I asked him about Planet of the Apes. I just asked him, because I was going through all of his movies, "And so tell me about Planet of the Apes." This is what he said to me, "Actually, that was the first of the space operas. And the thing that perhaps was unusual about it was that as a space opera, the humans had the best parts," Charlton Heston said in 1988. "Since then, they still make them in their marvelous movies, but the robots and the curious creatures have the best parts." And then he said this to me, which I just thought was hilarious, "They approached me the other day about doing a sequel, which confuses me because they've already made a sequel or about four of them. I can't figure out what the hell they would make me do." I said this back to him, "Maybe they'll put you in eight makeup." And Charlton Heston said back to me, "No, then I wouldn't do." He did it. He actually did it about 15, 20 years ago when they did the first reboot of Planet of the Apes with Mark Wahlberg. But there's a little trip back to my interviewing days in 1988.
All right, back to our programming here. The biggest reveal, Warwick, comes in the scene that follows what you were just talking about, the scene that ends it. Taylor rides farther in the forbidden zone to discover something that shows the truth of how the planet of the apes, the planet itself, not the film, the truth of how the planet of the apes came to exist in the way that it exists. And I'm going to let you explain what exactly we see in that final scene.
Warwick Fairfax:
So after this fascinating talk between Taylor and Dr. Zaius about humanity and all its ills, we see Taylor and Nova ride off along the shorelines of the sea. And as they do that, there's a conversation where Cornelius asked Dr. Zaius what Taylor will find out there. And Zaius says, "His destiny." This is truer than even Dr. Zaius knows. So in this last scene of the movie, and this is one of the all time classic movie scenes.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's got to be in the top 10 or top five. It's incredible. So we see Taylor, he's riding along the shoreline of the sea, and we see him looking up at a statue, but at first the camera is situated high and above this statue. We don't quite know what it is, but it's enormous. And Taylor is looking up at it. And he mentions these immortal lines. He says, "Oh my God, I'm back. I'm home. All the time, we finally really did it. You maniacs, you blew it up. Damn. God-damn you all to hell." I mean, he's just screaming at the top of his lungs. So he's on the sand, on his knees, looking up at the statue. And then we see Nova looking up at this half buried statue. It's the Statue of Liberty.
Gary Schneeberger:
That still gives me chills just to hear that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, absolutely. It's half buried in the sand. And this really is Taylor's worst nightmare, because they're not on some other planet, they're on earth. And it's because of man's idiocy, not some other human race of some other planet, but humankind on the planet earth. It's because of man's idiocy, as Dr. Zaius calls it, that the human race as Taylor knew it no longer exists. They're a shadow of their former selves. They're enslaved, they're mute, they have limited intelligence, they're running around in skins, they have no agency or authority. They're just treated like animals. So it seemed that sadly that Taylor's cynicism about the human race was warranted. I'm reminded of that phrase we sometimes say, that we don't want to be right. I wonder if Taylor was thinking of that, that, "I knew I had a dim view of the human race and where it was headed, but I was right. And how could I be right? I do not want to be right." At that moment he wasn't so much cynical, he was horrified, he was distraught. He wasn't saying, "Well, you got what you deserved." Ge was angry at humankind, of which he was a human.
And interestingly, yes, he says, "You maniacs, you blew it up," but he also says, "We finally really did it." He doesn't say, "They did it," "You did it." He says, "We." He's taking some responsibility for the destruction of the human race. It's a powerful scene.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I mean, Taylor in the beginning, both cynical and full of himself. At the end of the movie, he's emptied of himself and he doesn't have any place for cynicism. It's now replaced by just horror and deep despair, as you pointed out. It's a brilliant end to the movie, but it's not an end, Warwick, to the lessons that we can learn from the planet of the Apes. So let me ask you this. How do the crucibles the characters in the Planet of the Apes face offer us insight into how to move beyond our own crucibles, especially in the face of challenging circumstances where we might not have agency, as you pointed out, we might feel like we're trapped, what are some lessons that we can pull from Planet of the Apes to apply to our own crucibles?
Warwick Fairfax:
So in Planet of the Apes, throughout the movie, Taylor is in this incredible mind-bending crucible. The human race is now mute with little intelligence, and it is enslaved by apes. Human civilization has seemingly destroyed itself. All of Taylor's worst fears about humanity have been realized. At the beginning of the movie, Taylor's clearly cynical about the human race as well as his crew members. Taylor does not have many redeeming qualities. At the beginning, he'd be hard-pressed to think of anything, but as the movie progresses, we see that Taylor shows resilience. He does not give up fighting for his own survival or fighting for the truth. He wants to escape, he wants to figure out what has happened, what is going on. And he is determined to show the apes that he is intelligent. It's not like, "Look, I'm done for. What's the point? They're probably going to kill me." He doesn't give up. He never gives up.
So he's fighting for his own survival and fighting for the truth that he is intelligent. But more than just fighting for his own life and fighting for the truth that he is an intelligent human, he shows compassion. Early in the movie, Taylor shows zero compassion for people. And it's clear that he cares about the welfare of Zira and Cornelius. He's concerned about them being indicted for heresy for thinking that humans can be intelligent or that there was some ancient civilization before apes, as in potentially human civilization before apes. And Taylor also cares about Nova. Now Nova was in the same cage as he was at various times when he was captured. And she can't speak, again, like all of the humans of limited intelligence, but he has compassion on her. And when they escape, he wants to take her with him.
So this isn't some companion who we can have an intelligent conversation with, but yet he shows compassion and wants her to come. And so as we look at all this, sometimes we're faced with crucibles that are terrifying and beyond our control. They could be economic depressions, worldwide pandemics, earthquakes, other disasters, and they might seem way beyond our control, and they're a test of our character. Will we give up, as we often say, will we hide under the covers and say, "This is it. This is awful. I'm giving up"? Or we say, "Yes, it's awful, but how can I get out of the pit of despair? How can I take one more step even when I think..." We may think that, "One more step to where?" You know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's a worldwide pandemic, it's an economic depression, there is no hope. Imagine trying to take one more step in the Great Depression, which was in the U.S. and many other countries from 1929 into the '30s, endless bread lines, "One more step, what is the point?" But people of courage will say, "I'm going to take one more step." And not only do we have the opportunity to show resilience, but amidst these horrific crucibles, we have the opportunity to show compassion. Do we care about just ourselves or about others? Again, think about the Great Depression. Maybe you scarcely have enough food to feed your family, or maybe there's a friend across the road, an old lady that's a widow, maybe you can part with a little bit of your food and provisions for her. You don't have much for your own family, but when disaster strikes and horrific crucibles strike, it's a test of character. Will we show resilience? Are we going to be all about ourselves? Or will we show compassion? Will we have the capacity to care for others?
So crucibles are a tremendous test of character. And really this whole movie, Planet of the Apes, it's a test of Taylor's character. He goes from some cynical person that could care less about anybody else that thinks that humanity is doomed a destruction, and he goes from that to being somebody that shows resilience, that never gives up. And while indeed humanity has in this movie caused its destruction, at least as humanity and intelligent life was known back then, he shows compassion on Nova and Zira and Cornelius. And so this movie shows that despite the devastating crucibles that you can face, it is possible to get through them with character, with resilience, and compassion, and some level of human dignity.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word's been spoken on a subject. And our sci-fi-loving host, Warwick Fairfax, just spoke it with authority. And that will end this first episode of our summer series, Back to a Better Future: The Crucibles of Sci-Fi Cinema. Next week we will be back. And we're not going to tell you what it is, we want you to come and be excited to find out, to discover the film crucibles that we're going to walk you through in the next episode of this summer series. We'll see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Can a movie actually help you turn a setback into significance?
In this episode, we discuss our latest blog, 3 Lessons from 3 Years of Discussing How Movies Help Us Move Beyond Crucibles, ahead of our 2026 summer movie series kicking off July 7. We revisit the insights on resilience and personal growth we uncovered from three films explored in our previous series — The Pursuit of Happyness, Singin’ in the Rain, and Captain America: The First Avenger.
From these stories, we learn to silence our inner critic, choose joy in the middle of life’s storms, and believe — like Captain America — that we can do this all day.
Missed our previous summer movie series? We’ve compiled them all into playlists: Lights, Camera, Crucibles (2022): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLohc3aLoBAA5z9VYnQtD1s7n53hcfalM
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Perseverance without purpose, this movie makes clear, eventually burns out. But perseverance connected to meaning becomes remarkably resilient and that's something that we all need to lean into. No matter what our crucible is to match meaning to our perseverance. That's the secret sauce of putting one foot in front of the other and moving beyond this happened to me, to this happened for me, and here's my life of significance. No, your ears are not deceiving you. I'm just the guy that said the thing about secret sauce of turning trial into triumph. And on this episode, we discussed that. Would you believe that movies can be a key ingredient to creating that secret sauce? Listen as Warwick and I discuss our latest blog, three lessons from three years of discussing how movies help us move beyond crucibles and you will understand what we're talking about. In advance of our 2026 movie series that begins July 7th, Warwick and I discuss the insights into turning setback into significance we learned from three films we unpacked in previous series, The Pursuit of Happyness, Singing in the Rain, and Captain America, The First Avenger.
From these three movies, as you'll hear, we can learn how to stop being critical of ourselves, how to choose to celebrate through life storms and how we can believe we can do this all day. Welcome friends to this episode of Beyond the Crucible, and this is unlike most. This will be unlike most of the episodes of Beyond the Crucible you have watched or listened to. But I'll tell you this first before I tell you how it's going to be different. This is another of the episodes in which Warwick and I discuss his most recent blog, or let's say the most recent blog at beyondthecrucible.com. And this one has been, as I intimated a few sentences ago, this one has been recast. There's a new lead speaker in this one, you might say. It's called Three Lessons From Three Years: How Movies Help Us Move Beyond Crucibles. And our usual starring writer is taking a supporting role in this podcast episode. So let me step aside and turn it over to our supporting player, our supporting host, our co-host who's going to ask me questions because I wrote the blog.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, Gary, thank you. I really enjoyed reading this blog. It is a terrific blog. Fantastic points. So let's start off. So Gary, what led you to write this blog?
Gary Schneeberger:
Seems so weird. Just to hear you say that to me seems weird, but I have a non-weird answer, I think. We're preparing right now to launch our fourth summer series about movies. We did it last year. We did it the year prior to that. We had something else the year prior to that and then in 2022, I believe was the first year that we did it. We have looked at films as a jumping off point to discover and talk about how to move beyond your crucible, but then also how to live a life of significance.
And since our new summer series on movies is about to launch on the 7th of July and it will go all the way through the end of August, I thought it would be interesting to take a look back over those three other years in which we did movie episodes and to see what were some key learnings from some key films. So I sort of randomly selected three films for us to go through to have this discussion. And before I say any more about that, I'd be absolutely remiss if I didn't say starting July 7th, the new summer movie series is called Back to a Better Future: The Crucibles of sci-fi Cinema, which may have been influenced just a little bit by our usual host but today co-host, Warwick Fairfax.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well said. As we'll learn this summer, I'm a big science fiction fan, so a big fan of Star Trek, Star Wars, all sorts of sci-fi movies as well as some of the great writers of science fiction, Isaac Asimov and Arthur C. Clark who wrote the screenplay for 2001, A Space Odyssey. So we will be having a lot of fun learning, a lot of lessons about how to bounce back from your crucibles this summer, but in the future, in the world of sci-fi.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yes, good stuff. We've recorded most of it, so just got a couple more to do, but there's some really good stuff there. And again, the reason that I selected the movies that I've selected here is I wanted to sort of make the point that you can get from films in a variety of genres what we aim to do in our summer series on films. And that is here are some tips for how you weather your crucible, how you move beyond your crucible, and how you ultimately get yourself on a path to a life of significance. And the three that I picked demonstrate that wide birth of just how varied films can be that give us those insights.
And the films I picked were one that's based on an absolutely true story, that's The Pursuit of Happyness, one that's based on a true era in American history, but it's not a true story. And that's Singing in the Rain, which goes over, which sort of walks us through when movies change from silence to talkies and all the crucibles that caused. And then there's the far out pure fantasy of superhero films, one of my favorite genres and the movie that I picked in that case to discuss in the blog that we'll discuss in this episode was the first Captain America, Captain America, The first Avenger.
Warwick Fairfax:
So help us understand why, whether it's fantasy based on history or a true story, why even in all those three genres, can we learn a lot from how to bounce back from your worst day, your crucibles?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I've longed to say this forever, that's a good question, Warwick. And besides just the kind of films, where they fall in the profile of the movie itself, there's also Singing in the Rain is a musical comedy. The Pursuit of Happyness is a pretty strong drama and Captain America, as I said, is pure fantasy. So it really does crisscross all the ways you can crisscross, both in the type of film in terms of the genre, but also in the type of film in terms of whether it's funny or it's musical or it's dramatic or it's fantastical. And I think the reason that that all works out is because crucibles, as we talk about on this show all the time, are universal experiences.
So if they're universal experiences for a guy like me and a guy like Warwick, who if you've been around us any period of time on this podcast, more than 300 episodes now, we're not exactly alike in a lot of ways, that's fair to say. And yet the crucibles that we've been through and the lessons we've learned from them and the lessons we've applied and how we've built the lives of significance, which are different in both of our cases, there are some similarities there.
One of the things I say all the time to guests on the show as I'm talking to them before we actually have the episode recording is one of the things I've discovered in co-hosting 300 episodes plus of the show is that even though the circumstances of a crucible are markedly different from person to person to person, the emotions that they unleash in a person, I discover week after week after week with guests and with movies to be frank the emotions that they elicit are strangely and wonderfully and revealingly similar, even though the circumstances couldn't be more different. And I think we see that in the movies that we do too that, and what we'll talk about here is you may not have experienced the crucible that, well, I can almost guarantee you haven't experienced the crucible that Captain America, Steve Rogers experiences, but you can learn some things from that. That's the beautiful universality of the difficult subject that we talk about every week on the show and that's crucible experiences.
Warwick Fairfax:
I think one of the other things about movies is that they sort of highlight in Technicolor, so to speak, to use an old movie phrase in a way that sort of highlights the severity of the crucible, the challenge, the times seeming hopelessness. In each of these movies, there's a very real challenge that certainly in the case of Captain America, that nobody I don't believe in our audience will have gone through this or will ever go through that, I think that's a fairly safe assumption. And even in the others, it may not be something that you've gone through or will go through. Certainly you won't go through going from silent movies to talking movies, technology has gone.
But yet why movies are so good is they present a protagonist with a huge challenge. Will they be defined by their worst day or not? A couple of years or so ago, we actually looked at movies where the protagonist was defined by their worst day.
Gary Schneeberger:
Correct.
Warwick Fairfax:
They in fact got worse, whether it's The Godfather or Citizen Came. So there it's really a cautionary tale of what not to do. So really the arc of their story starts at one point and just gets worse over the course of the movie. Rather than learn the lessons, they're just defined by their challenges and in various ways they get better, angry. There's not a whole lot redemptive arc there, but that's why movies are so good is it really, it makes the learning easier because the contrasts are so sharp. Does that make sense?
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh yeah, for sure. And it's also interesting, we talk about it all the time when we do a film series is that it's totally changed the way that we watch movies, right? I mean, you and I, when we're watching movies for this, for the summer series coming up and for the three that preceded this one, you're not just watching it to have like a bucket of popcorn and a soda and just sort of veg out on the couch. You're taking notes and you're observing things from everyday life that you can apply to the folks who are listening and watching. It truly does. It's totally changed the way I watch movies for sure.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's get into kind of these three movies and the-
Gary Schneeberger:
I'm sorry, Warwick. I'll say upfront. I'm sorry that in the blog I wrote, I didn't have seven points. I only had three. I apologize, folks, if you don't get that Warwick often, but he's been breaking it a lot lately. Usually many times he's written seven points, but lately he's been really going nuts and doing eight or nine points. I just have three this time.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's point inflation, I'm afraid. So it goes up by three or 4% each year with CPI. So let's get started. So as we always do with these blog discussion episodes, you've extracted some insights and action steps listeners and viewers can take from the three films you selected. So let's go through these three films. So let's talk about in The Pursuit of Happyness and the first lesson you write in your blog is protect the dream. What do you mean by protect the dream and what can we learn from the movie Pursuit of Happyness?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. In that movie, Chris Gardner, who's the lead character, he faces what looks like, feels like we experience like, he certainly experienced like it's an endless avalanche of setbacks. He loses money. His wife leaves him. He becomes homeless. He sleeps in shelters and subway bathrooms with his young son beside him. Life seems determined to break him, but he keeps moving forward. We talk about it all the time, right? Warwick, you've said it and you said it more lately, you talk about we have a choice to make at the juncture of every crucible, do we hop into bed and pull the covers over our head or we keep moving forward?
And Chris Gardner keeps moving forward. And one of the most powerful moments in this film that we talked about in the episode that we did on this in our summer series a couple of years ago is he tells his young son, "Don't ever let somebody tell you that you can't do something, not even me, your dad. You got a dream you've got to protect it." That really leapt out. I remember the conversation because we played a clip that showed that and his son was all dejected, he missed a shot when he was playing basketball out just at a park and it really hit him hard. And this idea of you got a dream, you got to protect it is so critical to what we talk about on Beyond the Crucible all the time.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And just for a bit of background, what was Chris Gardener's dream? What was he trying to achieve that seemed like a dream that was the impossible dream? What was that dream?
Gary Schneeberger:
He wanted to be a stockbroker. He found out about this program that one person would be selected out of dozens of applicants. One person would get a job as a stockbroker. And not only not having been trained in that endeavor, that field, so there's that aspect of a crucible going on where he's up against people who've got MBAs and who've got a lot of education and a lot of experience. He has none of that. He's selling, right? If you remember at the start of the film, he's selling these kind of odd and not really useful medical devices or trying to, that he's bought in advance and he can't unload them. So he's got that going on. He's got this dream to be a stockbroker while all these other things continue to befall him and his son. So that dream would have been easy. If you watch The Pursuit of Happyness folks, that dream, his dream would have been... I mean, you could probably wallpaper a room in your house with the number of times he had the opportunity to let his dream die, but he refused to let that happen.
Warwick Fairfax:
So there could have been friends, neighbors, maybe inner voice saying to him, "People like me don't get jobs there. The system's probably rigged. I won't be able to get in." I don't know that that's spoken explicitly in the movie, but it had to be in the back of his mind. So there was all sorts of negative voices that could have been telling him, "Give up. You don't have a prayer. It's one in a million."
Gary Schneeberger:
And there were times when his voice was one of the negative voices. One of the scenes in the movie that we unpack is that he paints on his wall when he's trying to paint his apartment. He paints, "Dear Chris, you suck on the walls." And again, what that shows, I think, Warwick, is that even when our inner voice, even when what we project sometimes indicates we're starting to wobble, indicates we're close to falling down. In this film and what we can learn from this film and apply from this film is just don't give up. You can have moments of doubt, you can even express that doubt, but just keep moving forward, just keep trying. Even when Chris Gardner does that in the film, writes, "Dear Chris, you suck," he keeps pursuing the possibility that his life can be something more, that how he's living is not all there is. We've said it all the time, right? Is this all there is? Chris Gardner in this film recognizes that there's a point beyond, is this all there is for him? And he keeps pursuing it and that's the perseverance that ultimately transforms his life.
Warwick Fairfax:
Really talk about what's the purpose that keeps moving him forward when many would have just cried uncle and said, "Yeah, I'm tapping out. I'm giving up." What's the thing that kept pulling him forward?
Gary Schneeberger:
The movie makes very clear that Chris Gardner's ultimate goal, why he's trying to become a stockbroker, why he wants to do that is he wants to give his son a better life. He's not doing it for himself. He's not doing it so his alumni newsletter from his high school will indicate how great he is. He's doing it because he wants to give some security to his son who's with him and loves him unconditionally despite all of the setbacks that he has to endure with his father. So that's why Chris Gardner kept going. Perseverance without purpose, this movie makes clear, eventually burns out, but perseverance connected to meaning becomes remarkably resilient. And that's something that we all need to lean into no matter what our crucible is, is to match meaning to our perseverance because that's the secret sauce of putting one foot in front of the other and moving beyond this happened to me, to this happened for me, and here's my life of significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
I want listeners and viewers to really listen to what Gary just said because these are really profound words. What Gary wrote was, as you've just said, "Perseverance without purpose eventually burns out, but perseverance connected to meaning becomes remarkably resilient." One of the things we talk about at Beyond the Crucible is how important a life of significance is, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Without a life of significance, without purpose, why bother getting out of the pit of despair? Why bother moving forward? Why not just give up? But when you say to yourself, "This isn't about me.
It's about my kids, my wife, my husband, my friends, my family. It's about some higher purpose of serving the people in my neighborhood or maybe starting a nonprofit or thinking differently about the company that I'm working in or the business I founded." It's when there's some higher purpose, some higher calling in which this isn't about me, it's like, "Well, I can't afford to fail because people are counting on me." That's the key point that you're making, Gary, is I don't care how much perseverance or even resilience you have, if it's not anchored to some higher purpose, something that will help others, you'll fail. Does that make sense?
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, for sure. Without those conditions that you just described, you will let one step forward be insufficient compared to two steps back. In other words, perseverance attached to meaning allows you to go, okay, two steps back is I'm still making one step forward. It allows you to keep taking the step forward despite how many steps back happen. It may take you longer to get where you're going, but the goal isn't to get there fast. The goal is to get there because of the meaning attached to what the goal is.
Warwick Fairfax:
And that's one of the keys to getting beyond your crucible getting out of the pit is you've got to forgive yourself and show yourself some grace. If you don't, then you just give up. You'll say, "I'm not worth it. People shouldn't count on me because I'm let them down." So yeah, talk a bit about just the importance of, and we talk about this quite a bit is when you're getting beyond your crucible, you've got to be willing to show yourself grace. Yes, learn the lessons of your crucible, learn lessons of your mistakes, but ultimately you got to let it go. You got to let it go.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It's interesting the film, he writes, "Dear Chris, you suck on the wall" that he's painting. Well, what ends up, it's on primer on the wall, so he just paints over it and it goes away. And I think there's something instructive in that for us in that he doesn't put it on a sign that flashes by his alarm clock every day. He doesn't wake up every morning to make that part of his daily recitations of how he's going to get through the day. "Dear Chris, you suck." It's a fleeting moment. It's a passing thing. He expresses it. He feels a little sorry for himself.
He feels ashamed of himself. He's not happy with himself, but he doesn't live there. He doesn't stay there. And to your point that you make often, Warwick, he makes that decision that he's going to keep moving forward. He's going to keep taking the steps that are going to get him to where he wants to go, which is not, as we've said, not about him. It's not about dollar signs. It's about his son and providing a better life. It truly is not a life of success as the world looks at it. Chris Gardner's after a life of significance. And the beautiful part about the movie is he finds it in the end.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about the second movie, Singing in the Rain and lesson two is entitled Choose Joy in the Storm. And that is an incredible title for the second point. Choose Joy in the Storm because that's not normal. That sounds, say what? How do I do that? Why would I do that? So talk about this movie and what's the key point you're trying to make here.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I mean, first of all, let me say when you look at... Here's three movies about how to move beyond crucibles and live a life of significance. And one of them is The Pursuit of Happyness and one of them's Captain America who becomes an Avenger and saves the world. And you're thinking, okay, those make sense, I can see there's probably good crucible moments in there that you can learn from. And then you see Singing in the Rain and you're like, what? I mean, there could be people who would look at that and think it's the outlier here. One of these things doesn't belong here, as they used to say on Sesame Street, I believe. But even though there are no world saving missions, the central message of this movie and how it plays out may be the most relevant to our discussion here of all.
Warwick, you've observed on this podcast many, many times. And frankly, in the discussion of this film in our movie series a couple years back where we talked about this, the movie embodies, and these are your exact words that I pulled from the transcript, "Having a positive attitude on almost seeing our trials and crucibles as gifts rather than something to weigh us down." That's what you're going to get if you take, again, if you watch Singing in the Rain not just... And trust me, it's easy to watch it and just want to dance around and then enjoy all of the joy that's in there. But if you watch it with Beyond the Crucible goggles on, you will see that our trials and crucibles are gifts rather than something to weigh us down, as Warwick said. And that idea matters because crucibles don't just test our endurance, they test our perspective. I'll say that again. They don't just test our endurance. Can we take it one more day? Can we go on one more step?
They test our perspective. As we're taking that step forward, what are we trying to glean? What are we trying to gather? What are we trying to do? That idea matters most, I think, because Don Lockwood, the film's hero is an example of this. He experiences, as you indicated, career upheaval. Don's a silent film actor and all of a sudden talk he's come and there are no more silent films and he's got to talk on film, which is okay for him, but not quite okay for the starlet with whom he stars in most of his movie, who has a rather unappealing screen voice, we'll say. The world around Don Lockwood changes dramatically, yet instead of becoming bitter or cynical, he adapts creatively and optimistically. That is a critical point for the way all of us can process crucibles, which is why we talked about it a couple of years ago and why we're talking about it today, because that perspective is going to help propel you forward in the midst of a crucible to help you get to the end of your crucible.
Warwick Fairfax:
And then the other beat in the story is there's another woman, Kathy Selden, played by Debbie Reynolds, who I think this was about her first movie, this came out in the 50s and she has an incredible voice, but she has to lip sync the singing for Lina Lamont who just cannot sing. And so the way it would work is she wouldn't get any credit. So you have all these crucibles of trying to salvage the, was it the Talking Cavalier or something? I forget exactly what the name of it-
Gary Schneeberger:
The Dueling Cavalier it was-
Warwick Fairfax:
There you go. Exactly. The Dueling-
Gary Schneeberger:
Cavalier, I believe.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So for the Dueling Cavalier to Dancing Cavalier and it had to turn a silent movie into a talking movie, deal with this controlling obnoxious Lina Lamont with the high pitched voice and deal with the fact that somebody that Don Lockwood was growing to like a lot in Kathy Selden, she wouldn't get any credit even though she was singing. So you have all these crucibles and talk about there's really a pivotal scene singing in the rain, which is really it's an incredible scene. When we first watch it's like, oh, this is just so fun, but yet there's a profound meaning that I think most of us missed in that singing in the rain scene. Talk about that scene and why it's so profound.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I mean, again, watching the movie, watching the scene that you're talking about with our Beyond the Crucible goggles on gives you a whole different appreciation for it. Because here's what we see in the film, Don Lockwood has just with Cosmo Brown and Kathy Selden come up with an idea to really be able to make the dueling cavalier into the dancing cavalier. And Don's all happy and it's like late night. It's the next morning really in Los Angeles. And he goes to go home and sleep and it's pouring rain outside. And he decides, you know what, even with these difficult circumstances, even with this down pour, he's going to sing in the rain. He's so happy about what's just happened in his and his friends being able to identify a way to turn this crucible situation into this life of significance into a new kind of movie that will bring joy to people.
One of the reasons this scene has endured for generations, and you probably know exactly what I'm talking about folks when I'm talking about this scene, is it represents something that is deeply aspirational. The ability to maintain hope even when circumstances are difficult. Don Lockwood's life hasn't gotten perfect. He's got an idea to how to make it better, but it's not perfect. And yet he is so ebulient. He is so happy that he dances around, stomping in the rain. There's a street cop that looks at him like he's a little nuts. Don sort of slithers away. And it's important to note that what he's doing here is not denying the pain. And if we learn to process our crucibles that way, to sing in the rain of our own crucibles, it doesn't mean that we're denying the pain.
It's not that we don't think the hardship still exists, it means refusing to let hardship have the final word. And if we didn't already have a tagline for Beyond the Crucible, that could be a tagline for Beyond the Crucible work, refusing to let hardship have the final word. Too many people spend their lives waiting for ideal conditions before they allow themselves hope, joy, or movement forward. But resilient people understand something crucial that you don't have to wait for the storm to pass before choosing your attitude. You can be joyous in the rain. As Don Lockwood sings, I'm happy again, even though he's getting drenched in his nice clothes. He's a Hollywood star after all. He's able to do that. And that's a lesson we can all apply to our own lives and would be wise to.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's so well said. I mean, it's worth looking at that scene, look it up. Here he is. They don't know whether this movie is going to be made, going to be able to be turned from a silent movie to a talking movie. We don't know if Kathy Selden's going to get any credit. We don't know in her singing, we don't know if they can somehow counteract or deal with the sort of egomaniac controlling tendencies of Lina Lamont. All of that is in jeopardy. All of that is uncertain. They don't know which way the movie head is going to go. They have an idea.
Gary Schneeberger:
RF Simpson.That's his name, R.F. Simpson.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. Well said. Well done. So they have an idea of what they want to do, but at this point in the movie, they have no idea if it's going to work. It's all of these things that could go wrong as we've mentioned. And so here he is Don Lockwood played by Gene Kelly and he's literally dancing in the rain. He's sort of swinging around lampposts and it's like even though the storm is raging yet he's just talking about singing the rain and how happy he is. So just think about it. That's not an easy thing to do. But I'd say when you look at the guests we've had on the podcast, have been through just incredibly horrendous crucibles. They may not be able to change what happened, but they can change their attitude. I think of Johnny Eric Santarta, who we spoke about a little bit ago was one of the stories in the book.
And she was somebody that as a teenager in Chesapeake Bay in Maryland, she dove off a platform in the water and it was very shallow and she became a quadriplegic. Well, this was like in, I don't know, '67 or something like that. This is more than 50 years ago has she been living as a quadriplegic and she's a person of great faith. She's had a radio show, Johnny and Friends. She's helped disabled people all over the world. And her attitude is one of joy, despite the fact that it takes hours for people to help her get ready in the morning and hours to help her get ready for bed. And she's reframed everything to say something that's almost impossible to understand talking about her wheelchair as a passport to joy. It doesn't mean that she likes what's happened or she wants what's happened for anybody else, but she now has a ministry and a purpose that wouldn't have existed.
So she is a joyous person despite the fact that every day you could say the storms are raging. There is no hope in terms of physical recovery beyond what it's been. That won't change, but yet you can control your attitude. So if somebody like Johnny Eric Santarta can control her attitude, I mean, my gosh, it makes us think, are our storms that severe? Really what we're saying is you can't change what happened, but you can choose how you respond to it. You're going to get angry and bitter. So this is awful, but I'm going to choose hope. I'm going to choose even joy and find a way to move on. So I was going to say, does that make sense? In a way, it doesn't make sense, but yet it's true.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, it does. It's one of those things, right? I jotted a note here on my page that what Don Lockwood does and what the film invites us all to do is to allow hope to make us dance again because that's what Don Lockwood does in this film. And he has nothing to hang onto as he leaves Cosmo Brown's apartment at night. He has nothing to hold onto except the hope of what the conversation was of how they can fix this movie. He doesn't know if as you said, all those many things have to line up for it to happen, but simply that hope of being able to move beyond the crucible. He can see the light at the end of the tunnel. There's still a tunnel. He's still in the tunnel. The tunnel's still dark inside, but he's allowing hope to make him dance again, which is why he dances in the rain so wildly and so wonderfully if you recall the scene, as Warwick said, go check it out.
So it is indeed, as I said at the outset of discussing this film, you can look at Singing In The Rain and just think it's a fun Hollywood musical from the really golden age of Hollywood musicals, but it's more than that from a perspective of how it can move you, how it can educate you, how it can give you the tips and the action steps to not let your worst day define you. Don Lockwood could have let his worst day, oh no, they just made these talkies and my number one co-star who's as famous as I am, everybody wants to see Lockwood and Lamont can't do talkies because their voice is really sort of hard on the ears.
He was a stuntman before he was an actor. He could have gone back to being a stuff stuntman. Who knows what he could have done, but he didn't do that. He found hope and even before that hope was fulfilled, right? That's the lesson here, folks. You don't have to wait for hope to be fulfilled, to achieve hope. Hope like, okay, I'm across the finish line. Hope has now become something good. Hope can still be in the context of a crucible, but when you have that hope, it can give you all the thrust that you need to dance again. And as Kelly sings, as Don Lockwood sings in the song in that famous clip, "Come on with the rain. I'm happy again. Keep it coming." It doesn't mean his crucible's over. Keep the rain coming, but I'm happy again. And that changes everything. How you face the crucible changes the way that you endure the crucible.
Warwick Fairfax:
So well said. Keep it coming, keep it coming rain. I'm happy again. That is words to live by. So let's talk about this third movie, Captain America, the First Avenger. And I love the title of this third point, lesson three Character Matters More Than Strength. Why did you pick Captain America the First Avenger and what's the key learning that we need to understand from this movie?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I mean, I feel about superhero films the way you feel about sci-fi films. So Captain America is one of my favorite films because in the Marvel cinematic universe, it does the origin story better than just about any other Marvel film does. And the origin story of Steve Rogers, who becomes Captain America is... I mean, if there was a textbook for crucibles and what they feel like and how you go through them, this is it. When we meet Steve Rogers, he's physically weak. He's repeatedly rejected by the military and underestimated by nearly everyone around him. He wants to join the fight against the Nazis, but his physical condition repeatedly holds him back. And I did something when we did this movie, Warwick. I have a boxed edition of the first of the Avengers movies and what they call the first iteration of the Marvel cinematic, phase one of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
And inside that DVD pack were these profiles from the government of all the superheroes who were in the Avengers. And here's what Steve Rogers said about him. And I talked about it. This is not in the film, but it's in this background stuff I got in my DVD package. So here's how unfit for duty in the military's mind he is. Steve Rogers is only 5'7" and 110 pounds. He has asthma, scarlet fever, rheumatic fever, sinusitis, high blood pressure, palpitations, or pounding in his heart. He also suffers from easy fatiguability, heart trouble, nervous trouble, and has had household contact with a tuberculosis patient.
I mean, you feel bad for Steve that he's been rejected by the military to go fight the Nazis in World War II, this movie set in the World War II era, but you can kind of understand it when you read this dossier on him, but yet, it really worked. It just occurs to me as I say it, but yet. Those are some powerful words for any crucible situation we face, right? But yet. So before I talk about the but yet in Captain America, why is that such a powerful word for us as we're going through Crucible? Sorry, I'm playing co-host now.
Warwick Fairfax:
No, no. All good. Yeah. I mean, you could easily look at this guy and say, "Well, if ever there's somebody that does not deserve to wear the uniform, it's this guy." Because physically, I mean, how could he even lift a heavy pack and rifle and be there at D-Day and help his buddies? He would let the team down because he's just too weak, too small, too sickly. I mean, you might feel bad for him, but it's like he can't risk other people's lives with this guy. I mean, objectively you would say, "Look, I'm sorry. I feel bad for you, but you let down the team. You just don't physically have what it takes." But it's easy to say, "Well, we don't have what it takes. We should give up like Don Lockwood didn't or Chris Gardner, but they easily might have." It's easy to say, "Why keep trying? Just give up."
Gary Schneeberger:
It's wearying, it's wearying to keep trying.
Warwick Fairfax:
But even when it all seems hopeless, there can still be hope. Even when there seems to be no way there can be a way. Even when things seem absolutely impossible, things can be possible. That's really the essence of Beyond the Crucible is, but yet it's like, okay, things feel hopeless, well, maybe they feel that way, but maybe there's a way. Maybe we need to think outside the box. Maybe we need to approach it differently. Maybe we just need to take one more step and see what happens. But yeah, those are powerful words.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And the way in Captain America, The First Avenger is the medical official who's kind of overseeing who gets in the army, who doesn't at the place where Steve's at, even though he tries several recruiting stations to get in, there's a doctor named Erskine who sees him and sees something that's not in his medical records that offers an opportunity for Steve, that others have missed this. He recognizes that Steve Rogers' true strength isn't physical, it's moral. As Erskine explains when Steve is given a chance to take part in a top secret program to create a super soldier, this is what he says. "This is why you were chosen," he says to Steve, "Because the strong man who has known power all his life may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength and knows compassion." I'm getting chills saying those words. That's what Dr. Erskine sees in him and that's what we could, should, must see in ourselves if we're in similar circumstances.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, that's really profound, Gary. Dr. Erskine, he sees something that is not shown in the medical records. He recognizes as you say so well that Steve's true strength isn't physical, it's moral. It's really the strength of his character and Dr. Erskine captures it well. Somebody who's very strong, they don't know what it is to be weak, to feel powerless, to have compassion. But somebody who is physically weak understands compassion, understands the plight of the underdog. It's one of the things we say at Beyond the Crucible is those who've been through crucibles often have compassion for others because they know what it's like to be downtrodden, to be mistreated, to be not appreciated, to be overlooked for people to say, "Oh, you'll fail. You don't have what it takes." There's a level of compassion that somebody like Steve Rogers has. I think of, gosh, whether it's Abraham Lincoln, I think history would say his greatness was the greatness of his character, or we could look at George Washington.
We had a guest on recently Diederik Hoogstraten and he is the co-writer of a movie that's coming out July 3rd called Young Washington, looking at a young George Washington probably like 17, 50s, 60s or before just years before he became head of the continental army for the American forces and then president. And what we see in that movie and what history records is Washington's greatness was because of his character. History will tell us that Washington lost more battles than he won. He was not a strategic or tactical military genius. He was up against British generals that objectively were better strategists than he was. And he would've admitted that. They had more experience, maybe more talent, but that wasn't really his greatness. His greatness wasn't because he was the superior military strategist, which he wasn't. It was his wisdom, his character. He knew that winning the American Revolution was basically making sure his army survived.
If they could survive, then they had hope. So he had overall a lot of wisdom, but when we look at some of history's greatest leaders such as Lincoln or Washington, it was the greatness of their character. And that's really shown by Steve Rogers and Captain America. His greatness was his character and that is something that we all have the opportunity to be great at. Character is something that we can choose each day. Are we going to make the honest choice? The choice that is about others, the compassionate choice, or are we going to make the ego-driven self-centered, it's all about me choice. We can choose our character. A lot of things we can't choose in life, but character is made up of choices and that's so true here. So talk about what happens with Chris Rogers because life changes and his abilities change, but his character doesn't.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And before I do that, it's interesting that you brought up Young Washington and George Washington's his sort of journey to leadership because it's exactly kind of the same for Steve Rogers here. Steve is selected over more qualified candidates because the doctor sees in him kindness and humility and a never say die attitude. And Washington, even though all those things you said are true, ends up rising to the point of leading the continental army because of his character, because of that soul work stuff that we talk about all the time. Interesting part about that as Steve, because it plays out for Steve Rogers and it plays out for Captain America. He's often bullied as Steve Rogers and he tells his attackers as they're beating him up, "I could do this all day." And that's exactly the kind of perseverance he will need after receiving a super soldier serum that turns him into Captain America.
Suddenly he's not 120 pounds anymore. He's a lot bigger than that and a lot stronger than that. And perhaps even more than his chemically enhanced body though, Steve's spirit to keep meeting challenges head on, both in costume and out of costume is what makes him a hero. As we encounter our own crucibles adopting the mindset, I could do this all day, which he says throughout other Captain America movies, throughout all the Avengers movies as super villains are beating him up, not beating him up, but hitting him, he's like, "I could do this all day." That's who Steve Rogers is. And we would be wise to take that on as a mantra as we go through our lives, because crucibles, even after we've been through them and we've come out on the other side, guess what, right? Have you ever experienced any crucibles since your big one that you talk about? I have.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
They happen and having this, I could do this all day mentality. I'm going to be fine. I can get through this. It may not be easy, but I can apply myself to it. I can get through it. And that comes from character, not from strength. Steve Rogers doesn't say that. Captain America doesn't say that because he thinks he's more powerful necessarily than all the super villains he faces or all the other 1940s bad guys, mala factors that he faces. He does it because he knows his internal fortitude, I think is what Steve is at play when Steve Rogers/Captain America says, "I could do this all day."
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so well said. And you can see that in some of these other movies like Chris Gardner going to talk to that guy, a manager at the brokerage firm in San Francisco, he keeps trying to button hole him to get a shot and I'm sure he would say, "I could do this all day. I'm going to keep at it. I'm not giving up." Or you think of Don Lockwood in Singing in the Rain. "Hey, if it rains tomorrow, I could do this all day. I'm going to keep singing in the rain. We'll get there. I don't know how we'll get there." A lot of things have got to fall into place, but in each of these three movies, the main characters had a bit of a lot of a sense of, I could do this all day. Does that kind of make sense?
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, for sure. I mean, again, if the podcast didn't already have a tagline, that could be the tagline. Beyond the Crucible, Colin, I could do this all day because that's what you need. That's what perseverance is. That's what persistence is. That's what drives you forward. And again, going back to The Pursuit of Happyness, fueled by this higher purpose, it's not just about you. Steve Rogers doesn't have, "I could do this all day" as his motto because he wants to beat people up. He does this all day because he wants to keep people safe. That's where that comes from. He dedicates his life to serving others and that's where he can do this all day so he can do that all day. He can serve others, help others. That's the reason why he can do this all day is because it allows him to do that all day.
Warwick Fairfax:
So well said. So Gary, what's the one truth? The one important thing that they can do that you'd like to leave for listeners and viewers?
Gary Schneeberger:
All right. Since we're talking about films, I'll give you a short film answer first and that is this. No one may ever make a movie about you and the crucibles you faced. But don't miss the lessons movies can teach us about how to turn your trials into triumphs. The inspiration they offer will be with you long, long after the closing credits roll through. That's the short film answer. Here's a bit of a longer form answer. If you want to pick up some insights you can learn and action steps you can follow to move beyond your crucible, start watching movies and TV shows and any dramatic undertaking, go to plays and watch those with these goggles on. Do it with what I've been calling Beyond the Crucible goggles.
Look for good counsel within the entertainment that you consume that's more than entertainment. That's an extra step beyond that, that shows you how you can weather a crucible first, but then move beyond it second. We've said many times during our summer film series and by that it's a plural series. The three that you've already seen and heard and the one that's coming up we've said that watching movies from the perspective of how to turn setback into significance unlocks great wisdom to help you not allow your worst day to define you. Even movies in which the character's worst days do define them are instructive. So films can either show you what to do or what not to do and both are powerful lessons.
Warwick Fairfax:
I think of the phrase character matters. Typically when you've gone through a crucible, it can be life changing. It can feel like life defining. You can't necessarily change what happened to you, certainly with physical crucibles. In my case, growing up in a 150-year-old family media business and fresh out of Harvard Business School, launching a 2.25 billion takeover, because my dad had died earlier that year in 1987. I felt like the company wasn't being run well or run along the ideas of the founder. So that ended up not working out. Three years later, the company had to file for bankruptcy. So the point of that story is I can't undo the mistakes I made or the incredibly challenging situation I was in. I mean, neither of us can undo the crucibles that we went through. It happened. It was life altering. You can't undo it. And that's typically the way you can't necessarily or even rarely undo the crucibles, but what you can do is change your attitude.
You can approach it with character. You can forgive those who've harmed you, which as we always say, doesn't mean condoning. But if you don't forgive, it's like sort of drinking poison. You're the one who's in prison. So you can forgive. You can find a way to, as J.S. Park said in a recent podcast who's a chaplain of a level one trauma center in Tampa Bay. He talks about with grief you move with. You can't necessarily forget everything, but you can find a way to move forward. You can find a way to care for others and live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So really the key battle at these three movies show is it's the battle of the soul. It's the battle within. How do I not let this define me? How do I not live a life of bitterness?
So how do I stop endlessly replaying the movie in my head of the terrible thing they did to me or the terrible mistakes I made? How do I stop? That movie is not helpful to play in your head over and over again. How can I in a sense move on, move with that? And the key is really choices. It's a choice of the character, choice of the soul. And that's what these three movies show us. It's neither of these characters were defined by their worst day. They found a way to keep moving forward and there was a higher purpose that fueled what they did. And just really remarkable three movies that teach us so much.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And let's put a bow on the package here by mashing all three of them up. Because what do we learn in our conversation today? We learned this. We learned that we can reject the feelings of, Dear Gary, I'll use myself. Dear Gary, you suck. We can choose to sing in the rain and we can decide. We can believe that we can do this all day. With that, Warwick, I'm going to switch back now to the co-host of the show and I'm going to go over the reflection questions that always end blogs. The first reflection question on what we've discussed here today, folks, is this. Have you had to protect a dream of the life you want beyond your crucible? How did you do it? Think about that for a while. Second point of reflection. When have you had to choose joy in the storm to sing in the rain?
What was the effect of you doing so? How did that work out for you? My guess is it worked out for you pretty well. Third point of reflection is this. How can you build up your character in the same way that you build up your strength? How can you do that inner work that Warwick talks about so often? And that folks is a wrap on this episode of Beyond the Crucible. We will not be with you next week because we're taking a week off. And then the week after that, July 7th, our new summer series, Back to a Better Future, the crucibles of sci-fi cinema begins and runs all through July and all through August. So we will see you then.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
What does it take to bring George Washington to life on screen — not as a monument, but as a man?
In this episode, screenwriter Diederik Hoogstraten joins us to share the vision behind Young Washington, the upcoming film hitting theaters July 3 that explores the formative years of America’s most celebrated Founding Father. Long before he led the Continental Army to victory in the Revolutionary War or became the first President of the United States, Washington was forged by crucibles — and Hoogstraten built the script around exactly those moments.
Hoogstraten opens up about how he and his co-writers shaped the story around the experiences that built Washington’s resilience, integrity, and commitment to service. He also reflects on the crucibles of his own life that he drew upon to bring the “father of the country” authentically to life.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Diederik Hoogstraten:
To me, writing the movie, it was essential to get those very early formative years write because he faced a number of Crucibles to come up with that term again that really, really shaped him.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Diederik Hoogstraten, discussing his mindset as he was co-writing the upcoming film Young Washington. The movie hitting theaters July 3rd looks at the early days of the man who would lead the American colonies to victory in the revolutionary war and become the first President of the United States. Hoogstraten explains why he fashioned the script around the moments in which Washington built his resilience, integrity, and commitment to service. And shares the crucibles of his own life that he drew a pawn in bringing the story of the father of our country to life.
Warwick Fairfax:
Diederik, it's so wonderful to have you, Diederik Hoogstraten. He is a screenwriter, producer, and author. He grew up in the Netherlands. He has spent a lot of his adult life, New York, Los Angeles, and now Texas. He is married to Kelly Merryman Hoogstraten, who was the CEO of Wonder Project, I found out. And so Diederik has done a lot of work on a number of screenplays and is the co-writer of a movie we're going to talk quite a lot about in this podcast, Young Washington, incredible movie. I very much enjoyed it. And Diederik is a graduate of the Columbia University's journalism school where he got his masters. And I understand that you write and run wherever you go and you're called the Running Dutchman, which what a title, which is a lot of fun. So before we get into the movie of Young Washington, tell me a bit about the backstory.
You grew up in the Netherlands and you've been a journalist and now a screenwriter. Were there any kind of parts of your background that just said you just loved writing stories? Or how did you get to the point where you would co-write a screenplay, Young Washington?
Diederik Hoogstraten:
That's a great question. First of all, thanks for being here. Love the show you do and it's a privilege to talk to you too. I like that question because when you frame it like that, it makes me wonder, how did I get here really? Growing up in a college town in Holland, Netherlands, as you said, long before the internet age, obviously we read the newspaper at breakfast. I gravitated to the sports section always as long as I can remember. There were good stories there. Fun fact is that the papers that we read at home, two newspapers the morning, the evening. I ended up writing for them both when I lived in New York. So that was a real badge of honor for me. But I grew up in a relatively small college town in the eastern part of Holland, middle class. I think what got me going was my dad lived for stories.
He was a minister when I was young, then he left the church to be an academic and was a beloved professor at the University of Nijmegen. I think that's maybe where it came from. I always liked to write. I always liked to hear stories, to listen. Before I got to college in Holland, I had a tough moment, a story of which I still need to write. So forgive me if I tell it a little bit slowly. My crucible moment that I've been thinking about before getting on here was when I got very, very ill at age 16, 17, had a tumor that had to be removed behind my right eye. My kids think it's very cool. I still have a scar next to my eye there and it is a spectacular story. At the time it was this experimental surgery. I was under for nine hours. My parents really didn't know if I would come out alive. I did, but I remember that time as profoundly disturbing, lonely, scary.
In my childhood, there had been a lack, I want to say, of purpose and direction and guidance generally. I love my parents dearly. My mom is no longer around. My dad and I are very close at this point. I don't think he would mind me saying that he wasn't much of a dad to a younger boy at the time. I don't think he knew what to do. And I kind of know why. All of that to say, when I got really sick, skipped a year of school, got dropped into hospitals, I remember that time as just dark and lonely. And as a true crucible, I really have taken on that term, basically listening to your show to be honest, because the question walking out of that hospital for the last time, I believe was what am I supposed to do now? The pain is gone, but now what? There was an emptiness on the other side of it.
And I'm connecting it back to your question. I wonder if telling stories initially as a journalist with distance, telling other people's stories later as a screenwriter now where I tell my own, whether that was partially an answer to that question. I also came to my faith much later, not until I went into some dark years of abuse and self-destructiveness, which we can talk about. I'm very, very comfortable talking about it. But that crucible moment I think made me grow up very quickly, made me wonder what on earth I was doing and why I didn't die effectively, but set me on a good trajectory when I look back at it now several decades later.
Warwick Fairfax:
So you went through this illness that could have killed you and you have this moment of, I don't know if it's beginning of clarity or just sense of, I want my life to matter to count for something. I don't want to just drift through life. I want to have an impact. I don't quite know what it is, but it's an affiliate with a sense of my life needs to have meaning.
Diederik Hoogstraten:
I think that's fair to say. I wouldn't have recognized it or been able to formulate it at the time in those words. But I think I started to realize I wanted to get away from where I grew up. I wanted a clean break. I went to Israel for a bit during my gap year, learned to love everything Jewish and Israeli. To this day, I'm a great admirer of the Jewish people. I think it also was a beginning of a reconnection to the faith that I'd had as a young child when my dad was a minister, but my own father, I believe, sort of left his faith behind at that time. And so in our childhood, I have three sisters, there was Christmas. That's as far as I would say, maybe Easter, but we barely found ourselves in church or even looking at the Bible. And maybe that time in Israel was the beginning of a reconnection to it.
Finally, I ended up finding myself in the United States, upstate New York as an exchange student. I'd always been drawn to America, to be honest. My wife says, "Never forget to tell people about Alex Keaton." I watched Family Times growing up. I loved the A-Team and I loved Family Ties.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, me too. The A-Team.
Diederik Hoogstraten:
There you go.
Gary Schneeberger:
Awesome.
Diederik Hoogstraten:
Yes, brilliant. Still love the show whenever every run shows up. But Alex P. Keaton on Family Ties introduced me frankly to the idea of a healthy defense of capitalism of Ronald Reagan, who was considered to be pretty much evil from the perspective of a progressive family in Holland. Just something about that appealed to me, spoke to me. I think it was inside of me to the horror of my family, no doubt, but I found my way to the United States. Oh, and there was also, I have this book sitting right here. I read this in college that talked real about his love for America in the 1830s.
And it's interesting that it's not really a scholarly book. It reads as an old text because it is, but it is really a very long love letter to America. And so Alex P. Keaton and Alexis the Talk Real, I feel like helped me in my fledgling love and interest in America. Once I got to New York, I frankly haven't looked back. I found my way, as you said, to Columbia Journalism School and ended up finally in Los Angeles as a journalist where I met my wife and then switched to screenwriting. One thing I would add is that yes, I think throughout this time, maybe tiny step by tiny step, I found some clarity and direction and purpose. But during all this, I don't want to forget to mention this. I was still absolutely beholden by a couple of addictions. For a long time, I heavily smoked cigarettes and I really drank to numb the pain or just to forget some of the struggles that I didn't want to attend to, I suppose.
The smoking, I quit fairly early when I started to get serious about running. The drinking really only about six years ago at the beginning of COVID, I was finally able to say no more. That's maybe a crucible moment in and of itself. And then by the side of my wife, I think and having our three amazing children, I think I truly found my purpose of living a life that is in which I am no longer the central character. And that's been such an incredible liberation for me. My children, my wife, God, our church, the school, my friends are now writing movies about truly great men like Washington.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, what an amazing journey you've been on. I think back to Family Ties, you were the Dutch version of Family Ties, progressive family like Alex Keatons and you were not as progressive. So it's sort of art becoming reality, which is obviously ironic. And then kind of moving to the US and becoming a journalist and then screenwriter. And if you don't mind me asking, at least what were some of the struggles? There's always a reason that led you to smoking a lot of cigarettes and alcohol. What were some of the challenges that you were trying to numb the pain with that you now obviously probably through faith in part in your family, you don't have a need to numb the pain the way you did?
Diederik Hoogstraten:
Yeah, that's fair. I think good question. I think that it goes back to my childhood, to be honest, that being a boy in what I would call an all female family that was very progressive, very feminist. It was not an easy way to grow up. Don't want to call myself a victim here. Do not feel like I'm still suffering from that. But I think the... And by the way, the habits of both smoking and alcohol, I picked them up in the house age 12, 13. There was booze everywhere. There were ashtrays everywhere. It's what we did and not sure I want to blame anyone for it. It's just that I was very susceptible. I have an addictive personality. I thank God often that I never tried the cocaine when I was in New York that was everywhere, or any other really serious drugs that could have absolutely got me and maybe killed me if I had succumbed to that.
So I'm grateful that didn't happen, but I think there was a habit formed early on. And maybe as you asked that question and I think about it, maybe me finally letting go of these habits altogether also meant separating myself in a healthy way from that part of my childhood as well.
Gary Schneeberger:
I have to jump in at this point, Warwick, because you and I, Diederik, have a lot in common. I was a journalist too, not from such a prestigious school as you did, but I worked 15, 20 years in journalism. I also had a drinking problem in my past. I celebrated just earlier this month or late last month my 29th year of sobriety. So I know exactly what that comes from and journalism did not help me walk away from it. It helped me walk deeper into it. So I definitely understand what you're talking about there. It's not easy to get past, I also had cigarettes and I found oddly enough cigarettes were harder to quit than alcohol. I actually smoked a few years after I quit drinking. So you have overcome some demons for sure.
Diederik Hoogstraten:
Yes. Well, thank you for sharing that and congratulations, Gary. That is no small feat.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. So just one last question before we get to Young Washington. I understand that one of the other crucibles you have was a conflict with the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. It was very public. And I think you and a fellow member Wenting Zoo were called Rats Cancer, which is strong words for journalists. So without getting into all the details, what was that like? Because that must have been extremely painful, that whole crucible.
Diederik Hoogstraten:
It was an interesting time. I was grateful to be a part of the Hollywood Forum Press for a while, got to vote for the Golden Globes, and in fact it helped me. It actually set me on the course towards screenwriting myself. I got to read all the nominations for screenwriters for scripts and loved many of them, admired many, many of them. Some of them I remember thinking, I wonder if I could take a pass at this script to make it better. So it actually helped me in that way. There were some great people in that organization. There was also levels of corruption that are hard to describe. I had covered the United Nations in New York and I always compared it to the Hollywood version of the UN. And there came a time when both Wenting, she goes by Ting Ting from China and we were close friends at that point, where we both just couldn't live with ourselves anymore and said let's speak out.
Let's try to work with some journalists in LA who are trying to expose all of this. The backlash that you quoted from was intense. It's interesting, having grown up in a home where strong language and verbal views were very common, I think I could handle it fine. That didn't affect me. It might also be that at that moment in time, I think I was getting closer to God. I had a couple of kids. Kelly and I had a wonderful marriage. I wonder if I was just well-equipped at that point to shake it off and to say, "This is not about me. None of this really is about me. They're strong words, but they say everything about the people speaking them." And so I've left that behind. It's interesting to see that the Hollywood were impressed and the Golden Globes are still around showing once and for all that Hollywood, it doesn't really matter how corrupt you want to be as long as you throw a good party and give away some awards.
Warwick Fairfax:
I hear you. So let's talk about Young Washington. So you're the close screenwriter of this. How did you get involved in such a project? Obviously it's the 250th anniversary of the US. I have the word is pressure, but it's an honor. But to tell the story of the young George Washington, I'm sure everybody involved wanted to do it well, do it accurately but make it interesting. So talk about how did you get involved in this movie?
Diederik Hoogstraten:
Yeah. I'm glad we have a little bit of time because I should connect it to my wife's first steps to starting this company, The Wonder Project which, Gary, I know you know John Irwin pretty well. So yep, my wife Kelly and John got connected back three, four years ago, I want to say, introduced through a friend. Kelly at that point had left Hollywood behind. We lived in Austin, Texas. She had worked for a long time at Sony Pictures, Netflix, and YouTube. So she'd been in Hollywood and in entertainment, she had left that behind. But once John approached her and said, "Let's do this. Let's build something that's HBO level quality, but that's for the faith and values audience. Let's make really good stuff for people between the coasts." Of course, they can also be on the coast, but most of our viewers I think are more in the middle of the country.
And of course, John had been doing this with movies like Woodlawn, with American Underdog, with Jesus Revolution, terrific films, high-end films that made a lot of money for the studios behind them. And so John and Kelly wanted to start their own studio to produce this type of content. And two projects he had in mind were both origin stories, coming of age stories. King David, the biblical David, which became House of David, a show you can watch on Amazon. And then George Washington for many years, his mind had been set on those two stories. I believe even that some folks advising him that said, "Sound like good stories. If you want to do those, start your own place, go do it yourself." He brought in Kelly, my wife, to do the business side of it all, which he still does to this day. John is the creative mastermind of the studio.
And for this movie to your question, Warwick, Kelly said she knew of my love of America, anything American, including constitution, history, early colonial history has a deep interest of mine. She said, "You and John should talk. Just talk. I can't be in the middle of it, but you guys meet. See if you like each other." And that's what we did. We immediately hit it off. It's hard not to like John Irwin, frankly. He is not just brilliant, but also extremely kind and wonderful and just a pleasure to work with. So I brought in my friend Tom Provost, fellow writer, a frequent collaborator. Tom and I, basically, I put it like this, we spent many, many hours with John Irwin downloading his vision for this film onto our computers, just talking, taking notes. He knew what this movie would look like. And I don't know, Gary, you've been around John, you may have seen this.
It's remarkable that the first conversations with John captured the essence of the movie as you guys saw it this week. Even though there's many, many stages of development, just there's nine or something drafts of the script alone. Then you get to shooting the film in Virginia and in Ireland, you get to post-production, which takes many months. And yet what we have now with this incredible cast, by the way, is so close to his vision initially. So he basically hired me. My wife's company hired me to help write the script three years ago.
I should admit, it wasn't immediately planned for the 250th anniversary. It was planned to come out soon. It just so happened that due to all sorts of circumstances, House of David had to come first. And I've often thought that I think George Washington wouldn't mind if King David got the preference and got to go first in this case. But yeah, that's how we began.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's talk about just some of the key themes and moments in the movie. And I just want to say as a bit of backstory for Beyond the Crucible folks, obviously my last name is Fairfax and there's a few Fairfaxes. Two explicitly in the movie one is mentioned behind the scenes, and some of them come across better than others. Well, one of the main protagonists and friend of George's growing up was William Fairfax. It so happens my oldest son's name is William Fairfax. We call him Will. Yeah, I just thought that was very funny. And in an alternate universe, you could have said to John, I got the perfect cast member. I know Joel Smallbone is good. He's Australia. I'm from Australia. I think that's great. But how about this, John? William Fairfax as William Fairfax. Wouldn't that be cool?
Probably a few years younger than the characters meant to be. And my son is actually a pretty humble guy, so that's probably would be a bit of a challenge to play the William Fairfax as portrayed in the movie, but I find that kind of very amusing. So in one of the early scenes, we sort of see a bit of a life change for George. We see that his dad has died and he won't be able to go to school because they really don't have a whole lot of money. They're not like the Fairfaxes that have nobility and money. And I think Brother Lawrence, half brother Fairfax is a superior class and the world's an unfair place. But there's sort of a key scene where how many kids go, "I want to go to school," but they won't let him. The school just turns him away. And there's a key scene where George is talking to Lawrence and Lawrence gives him these classic books.
People aren't educated the way they were back then on Plato, Seneca, Plutarch, and basically just read these books and he does. So just talk about those scenes and George's attitude, because it's really life changing. He wants to be successful and it would seem like at the beginning of the movie, that's not going to happen. This is a class structure, even in America at this point. So talk about those early scenes and what do we learn about George and his character from those early scenes.
Diederik Hoogstraten:
I love that question because as you know, later in the movie we get onto the battlefields for real and there are elements of the Patriot and the Revenant even when he goes off into the wilderness, which at the time was Ohio, the Western frontier. But to me, writing the movie, it was essential to get those very early formative years right because he faced a number of crucibles, to come up with that term again that really, really shaped him. And for instance, what I really hadn't known was that he desperately wanted to go to England to go to school. As you said, his father passed away when he was nine. He also lost his half brother, Lawrence, who then stepped in to be his mentor as you see in the film. But he begged his mother, he begged Lawrence like, "Let me go, not just to school, but let me go to London." Now that part, it's a little bit less visible in the film as it was in the first draft that we wrote, but his mother really was very firm.
And this is true apparently where she said, "I know you were going to go to England. That's where your brother went. And if your dad had been around, fine, but you're one of the men of the farm now. We got to work." And one of his mother had been a little softer hearted and had said, "Sure, George, we'll ship you off to London." We might never have seen George Washington again in the later United States. And history could have been very, very different. So I like thinking about these little hinge moments in history where if this, then that. Back to your question though, I think he was forged in loss and tragedy, George was. People may not realize that because I think we think of him as the father of the country, an austere and distant figure and the greatest American. Joseph Ellis, one of his biographers said he's considered the father of the country.
And as Freud and Shakespeare have told us, it can be very difficult to approach your father and to understand your father and to have an honest picture of your father. I can testify to that myself as well. And so in that way, I think the movie is an attempt to really understand who he was, how he became who he was through loss, through suffering, but then starting to display these virtues. And there's three things I think in his character that we try to expose as the movie goes on and that's his resilience initially in the face of these challenges. And then his integrity that he starts showing when he's finally allowed and able to serve in the military, which is not easy for him either because as you said, he wasn't off the right station. And then I think later in the movie, we get to this idea of service that initially it was his ambition really and his deep need for status and for recognition that drove him.
And later toward the end of the movie, we get to what's some of the qualities that we know of the later Washington, and that is to be a servant leader. But again, I think the building blocks for all of that are in the early parts of the movie. And I'm very grateful for the cast, especially man, the guys playing George Washington, just tremendous.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, can I jump in just because Diederik said three words that we say all the time at Beyond the Crucible are keys to moving beyond your crucible and leading a life of significance. He said, "Resilience, integrity and service." Explain a little bit more. Why are those things so important in the context of having this conversation on a podcast called Beyond the Crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things we say a lot at Beyond the Crucible is this statement that's hard to live by, which is it didn't happen to you, it happened for you. Nobody likes the crucible. You didn't like some of the crucibles you've gone through. I certainly haven't and certainly Gary hasn't. But it's like, okay, in the case of a young George, this isn't fair that my father died and then later his brother and he won't be able to get an education. Time and again, he wants to have a royal commission. They basically are not so many words laugh at him. That's not going to happen. He doesn't have the money anyway to afford it, but he's just a colonial but yet he never is defined by his crucibles. He doesn't like it, but he chooses to overcome them. And so many great lines, his brother says, "Obedience could be commanded, but respect must be earned." And if you desire to be great, you must study well time and time again, there's this expression which obviously everybody would understand.
Lawrence, his brother says, "We are Pawns, but even a Pawn can take a king." And spoiler alert, but the American forces do indeed defeat the British and the United States is born and King George is defeated. So there you go. In case you didn't know that did happen. So that is a brilliant line. And he also says, "To obtain the applause of men is a heartfelt satisfaction." But he says, "To merit it is my highest way." He doesn't want applause for men just because of it. He wants to earn it. The deep seeds of his character are written in very early in this movie, which is brilliant. So those early scenes. We see him with Sally, which again, if anybody knows anything about American history, the founders of our country, I'm also American citizen now, it's not George and Sally Washington. It's George and Martha. So that's a bit sad. I think history would tell maybe she had the love of his life.
Certainly he was always very good friends with Sally. So that's a great backstory. So we mentioned he does some surveying work for Lord Fairfax and goes into the wilds of the Allegheny and that was a pretty tough journey. So he comes back and somehow the governor finds a way to make him like a major in the militia, and off he goes to sort of look at these French forts that are out there. The French are on the Western frontier and the British obviously don't like that. And so there's that whole kind of scene. So he comes back, sees the governor. There's some peace treaty he has to sign. I guess he's not good at reading fine print. And so that's not good. He finds obviously he doesn't get Sally, but somebody else does, somebody maybe of my name. But eventually he gets set out again and that doesn't go particularly well.
And really sort of one of the key scenes I would say in this movie is when that whole experience with his Virginia forces against the French, he is really not a military leader at this point, doesn't go well. And you see the movie for the amazing details and he comes back and he feels like he's a complete failure. And he says, "Yeah, his mother was right. She knew he'd failed, which is not exactly what she said, but that's how he interprets it." And his mother says some incredibly wise things. I wanted to get your thoughts on this, in which his mother says, "Failure is the tutor sent by God if you don't learn from it. You fail twice. If you do learn from it, you've learned wisdom." And so his mother says, "If you must return to soldier and go as God's servant, do it with your whole heart, find your path, make it yours, make it straight and prove them wrong." She says again, "Because even a Pawn can take the king."
So at that point, it's the lowest point in the movie, he feels like a total failure. His mother really offers wise words. So talk about that because he could have said, "The deck is stacked against me. I'm quitting. I was set out to fail. I knew nothing about soldiering. I'm humiliated." All of the generals and the governor will say, "See what happens when you send out a colonial to do the work of true British officers. These colonials they're idiots." And so talk about that scene because George doesn't just give up like many would. So what does that tell you about George's character at that point in the movie?
Diederik Hoogstraten:
Thank you for that. Beautiful to hear some of those lines read back to me. Actually, that's special. Thank you for noticing all of that. The mother, as I listened to you, I realized that this idea of resilience actually was modeled by Mary more than... She lost her husband. She had a lot of land and a farm and quite a few kids and animals. And of course, servants or slaves who were there and who also need to be fed and housed and be part of it. That was life back then. And so she not only managed but kept her sanity and her wisdom and her wit. And so that scene, I think it's surprising that it's ultimately his mother who says, "Okay, you failed, and I didn't want you to do this in the first place." She doesn't say, "I told you so." She says, "Are you going to get back up?" That's really the question she asks him.
And I think that's so powerful that if a parent can... I see this in my own kids every day, can you encourage them enough to want to get back in there. Not tell them to do it because that usually doesn't work, but also don't cuddle them and tell them, "Oh, just come feed the horses for the rest of your life and just hang out." As we wrote that, I thought a lot about that resilience and then integrity is, of course, it's not the absence of failure but only the question of what you do with it. As a broken person, as a fallen, as a sinner, if you will, if you want to put it in biblical terms, what do you do when things get that hard? And one of the reasons I tell people now, this movie should resonate with all of us so much today is because we have such small, tiny problems now in our lives. And yet we want to give up or we want to reach for the alcohol or we want to just close the curtains and go quiet, or just scroll social media. That the things he went through were real.
I won't give it away, but some really, really dark stuff happens on the battlefield in these early scenes, beautiful scenes, the way John Irwin portrayed that and the way Will Franklin Miller did, who plays George Washington, I think he captures something there beautifully. But that level of loss and struggle that can be overcome. And mother Mary, again, we interpreted this based on historical facts that we could find, but we wanted her to be that voice of encouragement and of sort of a steady kind of support. And maybe in a way that many of us wished we had a mother or a father to do that. There's a little bit of that in it. In that sense, I might envy George a little, but he had that and thank God he did because he literally got back in the saddle as you described.
And things still don't go so well in the battlefields, but they gradually improve. I also love Sir Ben Kingsley in this film. He just captures that Governor Dinwiddie so well. And it's also, to me, a crucial little scene when George comes back into the office and says, "Governor, I have failed. I am done." That to me shows his integrity. You might interpret it as giving up, but I think he's willing to accept the consequences of his decisions and his actions. Of course, Governor Dinwiddie immediately says, "Well, that doesn't reflect very well on me." So he's still in his ego phase, but George himself says, "That's not the point. I think I need to step back and accept these consequences." After which the mother encourages him to not give up.
Warwick Fairfax:
His brother Lawrence actually provides incredible wisdom and love to George from Beyond the Grave. We see this, and this is so well written and so well laid out in which we see George looking at a book that was, I guess Lawrence gave to George. And in the inscription of the book it says, "Dear George, you were right. I was wrong. The world in its ways can change. Your most affectionate brother Lawrence." So before he said, "Give it up. You can't change the world." And he's saying, "No, George, you were right." That's sort of a, as I sometimes say, like a drop of grace. And then one of the pivotal scenes in the movie is you see George going to, I guess it's General Braddock and another sort of second in command. His name is Gage. And what's interesting is George has failed if the whole world at the time, at least in the colonies, he's failed.
He's saying, "Look, I don't need rank or pay. I can be your aid to comp." That's basically saying, "I can be your executive assistant. I can just write your letters, you dictate anything. I just want to learn from you and do what I can to help." And even General Braddock is pretty full of himself. He admires this young man. This man has failed, but yet he doesn't really want anything other than to be with, to be an aid. And I don't know, it doesn't look like Gage would've kind of allowed that if he was in combine just judging by the expression on his face. Talk about that because that is an incredible moment of humility. And he's not being defined as we say by a worst day, by failure.
He's saying, "Okay, I failed, but I'm willing to learn." That level of humility is all inspiring." So just talk about that because that's one of the key scenes in the whole movie, showing a young George's humility.
Diederik Hoogstraten:
Yes. Thank you for that again, because I think the Washington we later got to know, I think every biography talks about his humble demeanor, his humility, his ability, of course, to step back from his commandership in the army and later as president. We thought it was important to put that first inkling of his humble nature and his humility in the movie. That was the right moment, I think, because it allowed us to also show some of the humanity of General Braddock with Andy Circus, like you said, very full of himself. But also George showing the humility reaches Braddock in a different way as well.
For character development in a film, if you want to get to this idea of the servant leader, which we want to show that really George is becoming and that's how we get to know him later in his life. And then I think that a humble character is an essential part of that. And so we had to find a way to show it. It ties into, in that, I believe in that same sequence but I haven't seen the movie in a little while. But it ties into this moment when once he has offered his services as, like you say, an executive assistant, they're on their horses, they're on the trail and he sees some of his old buddies who he hadn't seen since some very bad stuff happened. And he jumps off the horse and he says, "Give me an axe. I want to help you clear this trail."
And so not only is he getting sweaty doing the manual labor, he's also then apologizing to them and saying, "I messed up and I will never leave you out there hanging again." Not to give it away, but later in the movie, he will prove that point. So yeah, it was really once his mother, as you said, had, as you described, beautifully work, had set him up in that direction. He then took that onto the field, if you will, onto the trails, into the frontier area where they were going to battle the French and some of the Native Americans and led with humility.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's so well said. So just giving just a very broad overview without getting into details of this movie. He's back obviously with General Braddock and you'll have to see the movie. But let's just say that General Braddock is full of himself and George tries to offer him some pointers based on his experience, but Braddock's like, "I got it." So you see how that unfolds not too well. So there's a time when things are challenging and George rises to the occasion, and finds a way to rescue some of the Virginians in a very difficult situation. And that really changes the arc of his career because he becomes a hero, not because necessarily have done so well, but he finds a way and actually uses some tactical intelligence. Again, see how he manages to do that. It's a great scene when he figures out a way to rescue his fellow Virginians.
So he comes back now and he's the hero. He's in the local paper, the Virginia Gazette, and they write just about his exemplary courage. And he was sick at the time. And as I said to Gary [inaudible 00:43:40] in the paper, it says he did this despite being an infirm condition. I don't think probably, either of you used the word, this particular person was an infirm condition too much, I'm guessing, and you're right.
Gary Schneeberger:
I never did in my journalism career. I don't know about you, Diederik.
Diederik Hoogstraten:
No.
Warwick Fairfax:
But it's great. And the governor, you're right, a player by Ben Kingsley, this is so well written, he says, "The most failure is the end." This is after he comes back, not exactly having succeeded, but at least rescuing some of the Virginians. The governor says, "The most failure is the end. For you, it only seems to be the beginning. And since leadership is the problem, I'm going to give you the opportunity to answer a second chance." So he makes him a colonel again in the militia. And the full arc of his character is shown, at the end here George Washington. He's now a colonel in the militia and he's got his Virginians, Virginian militia in front of him. And again, these words are just incredibly written and just sum up the arc of the journey of this character. And so George says to the militia, he says these words, "I'm not a British officer. I'm not a gentleman of England. I have no title, no Royal Commission. What I do have is you, all of you. I'm a Virginian and it is my honor to serve."
And all the men shout to Virginia. It's an incredible scene. So you've got this confident but yet humble George Washington, the man that we will come to know later on in the American Revolution. So this is an incredible evolution. So just talk about the evolution from the bottom of the pit of failure and humiliation to now he's a hero, confident but yet humble. And all of his men, they're cheering him. This is an amazing evolution of... So what do you see as you see this evolution of George Washington in this movie?
Diederik Hoogstraten:
Man, you are very careful and brilliant film watcher. I have to say that's such a good analysis and such a great focus on some of the key moments in the film. So I truly appreciate you taking the time to notice all of that. I want to illustrate the point you're making by also that scene where Thomas Gage, the British officer serving directly under General Braddock at some point says there's a retreat which may or may not have been true. "And Washington, what could be the risk of going into battle and probably dying?" And he says, "My men, my men are worth the risk." And I bring that up because I think that that is a culmination of this character development. In modern terms, I think early on he was driven by ego as we probably all are as kids, as young people, status, it was all about what can I achieve? Where do I belong? It's all about I, I, I.
And for him, this development happens quickly. He's not even in his mid 20s by the time at the end of the movie the scene you beautifully described, where he actually leads his men with humility and with that confidence. But I think he's been forced, I should probably say, to get away from that egocentric, ego driven, self-driven journey to realize the choices I make affect people very dear to me, whether that's my mother, my little brother, the men who I'm supposed to lead or the men who I'm supposed to serve or the country. Of course, it wasn't a country yet. We're talking about the colony of Virginia primarily. So he is able to get out of his own way, if you will.
I think that there an element that we don't address as much in the movie, but you quoted his mother talking about God. Of course, they read the Bible. Of course, they were all Christians. We know that, that was how they lived. And I'm personally pretty convinced that his faith was also building and growing during that time. Historians might take me on there. We don't really know. I'm just inferring from what we do know and from what we know about that time. And then again, from the development of his character that you described, that arc, it's almost impossible for me to imagine that there wasn't a higher power guiding and supporting and showing him the way really.
Warwick Fairfax:
So as we look at Young Washington here, and one of the lessons for us today about George Washington aspirate in this movie, what can we take away from it? Especially as we try to crawl our way out of our crucible, out of the depths of the pit, what can we learn from George Washington this movie that applies to our lives today?
Diederik Hoogstraten:
Yeah. Well, it's some of the things that you've summed up and that we've been discussing here, the choice between what's convenient and what's right. I think that keeps popping up for young Washington. What do I maybe want to do? What feels good? What is easier? Or what could be considered my calling or my purpose or what is this higher idea? And as I listened to your interview with Mark Divine, terrific. I really stopped and paused when he talked about the need to go quiet, to go internal to whether that's prayer, meditation. My sense is that Young Washington did a lot of that. And we see some of it in a movie, whether he's riding a horse or chopping a tree or sitting by a stream when he's really young and really, really distraught. And this movie I think is trying to show us that a young man can suffer so many challenges and failures and setbacks and losses and yet come out as what one biographer calls it our greatest secular saint.
If we have a saint in America, it's probably George Washington. So to keep in mind for young people especially, hopefully they find it interesting and exciting. This is a fast-moving movie. There's a lot of action. There's some romance, there's war, there is violence in it. As they watch it, I hope they can find meaning and recognition in this idea. Yes, we do fall. We always do, we all do, and that's not the end of it. In fact, it can be the beginning. And that to me would be the key for myself, frankly, learning about him and writing these scenes that you're describing. I really took that away for myself again, almost as a reminder. I've tripped up quite a bit in some ways. I sometimes wonder if I deserve to be here. I think all of us can have that little bit sort of an imposter syndrome in life, but then a project like this can help remind us.
Of course, Church on Sunday can do it too, reading, connecting with others by the way. Sorry, the last thing I'll say to this question on George, he is not afraid to be open to the connection to others. So even when he doesn't want his brother in the room, he doesn't want the counsel of his mother or his friends trying to tell him or warn him, he is and stays, I think, open to that connection. And that's a big lesson I think for many of us when the urge can be to push away, to separate, to close the door, to be alone, instead try to find it in yourself to say yes, to open yourself up.
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things you're highlighting, Diederik, and by mentioning just the podcast we did with Mark Divine is we talk a lot on Beyond the Crucible about the importance of the soul work. That's the greatest journey. It's a journey within. It's the development of character. And one of the things that I don't know that we fully appreciate now, but back in the 1700s, part of the 1800s, the development of character was something that was focused on. And that is certainly something I think Lawrence probably would've been believed in George's Mother Mary. And certainly George he's reading these books not just about to educate him about history and science and math and what have you, but about character. And I think of my own ancestor, my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax, one of the things they did was play a parlor game and they would talk about who's your greatest hero.
We don't do that today. Maybe there aren't too many great heroes. But back in the day they did and they would have, I'm sure, in George Washington's time as he was growing up in those circles. And so for my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax, his greatest hero I believe was Nelson of Napoleonic War fame and his wife, Sarah's Wellington. But it's not just because of the deeds, it's because of who they were. So you could say, "What's the greatness of Washington?" It was because his primary aim in one sense was the development of his character. Yes, I think it was inspired by God, but it was wanting to be a great person in the sense of having great character, humility, courage, servant leadership, service. That's why he's so great, not because he was a brilliant military strategist, which he wasn't. But he was probably one of the main focuses in his whole life was the development of his character, the development of his soul.
It's a lost era because yes, it was him, but there was a cultural estuary, if you will, at that time amongst some people that that's kind of what you did develop your character. Did everybody do it right? Did they pay lip service to it? But at least it was part of your education. So just talk a bit about that because that's not... We don't talk about that in school these days with our kids. Character development is important. Let's talk about these books and these characters in history. What can we learn from? We don't do that, right?
Diederik Hoogstraten:
Exactly right. That's such a great point. And the movie very clearly I think shows how important that is to George himself as opposed to the Fairfax family. So it's interesting that the lower class, the lowly colonials took it a lot more serious than the English upper class, the posh folks across the river. They just wanted good parties and wanted to make sure the right people came to the parties, which did not include George initially. But I hear you on that work. It's funny, my own children, our kids go to a neighborhood school here. It's a private school called Regents. It is a classical Christian school and character formation is an explicit part of that school. It's one of the reasons we're there. So they think of this project as a triangle, family, school, church. We work together on shaping, helping to forge that character. And I think that's what we see in the movie as well.
I wish it was still around. I think about my own grandfather born in 1911. I think he still got a lot of that in his early education around World War I, I suppose we're talking, but it's harder to find these days for sure. I think to George it came natural, thanks to probably his father who we don't see in the movie to be fair. But his mother, his brother, it was simply part of their family culture and what a gift for him.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, one brief amusing comment before we close talking about Fairfax is William Fairfax doesn't come across too well. I like to think my son, William, has better character and certainly a strong faith. But William comes across as this sort of pompous, self-important, I'm rich, you're not. Now, I guess it's his cousin, Lord Thomas Fairfax played by Council Grant. He comes off a bit better, but one amusing fact is the Fairfaxes that own most of Northern Virginia, they're from Yorkshire. And we actually a number of years ago met the descendants of the Lord Fairfax, there is still one. My family, surprisingly and not surprised, and it came from Warwicks, hence my name. I like to think the Warwicks of Fairfaxes might be a bit more humble, but who knows? That's a different branch, but there you go. It's just those Yorkshire Fairfaxes. What can you say?
Diederik Hoogstraten:
Absolutely. I think you're on the good side of the traffic.
Warwick Fairfax:
I'd like to think so. Their Fairfaxes don't come across too well, other than Kelsey Grammar's, Lord Thomas Fairfax, but there you go.
Gary Schneeberger:
That will bring us the planes on the ground. We finished this fascinating discussion, really a two for one. There's Diederik Hoogstraten, his story, and then the movie he wrote, Young Washington. And I am now going to, because I'd be remiss in my duties as host if I didn't do this, Diederik, how can people learn more about the film and more about the Wonder Project?
Diederik Hoogstraten:
I appreciate the opportunity. Wonder Project is a channel on Amazon Prime. So all the content including later on this movie will be available there. Of course, the movie is releasing wide in theaters on July 3rd right before the Independence Day weekend. Angel.com, they'll start selling tickets very soon. You can already find a QR code there and this is kind of interesting. I think you guys will appreciate it. There's a QR code there to allow you to pay it forward. You can buy a ticket for a high school student and this is important. There's five million high school students learning about American history any given day. We hope and think that this movie can bring history to life in a way that they might not be exposed to as much. Books are wonderful. Books are one thing. A movie can have a very different effect on a young mind as we all know.
And we hope that folks pay it forward to some students who might not be able to have a chance to see the movie, otherwise that's on angel.com and of course wonderproject.com is available as well.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, as always, the last question or questions is your prerogative, so take it away.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Diederik, this is a question we ask a lot at the end of podcast discussions, but there might be somebody today that maybe they feel like today's their worst day, maybe what was done to them was horrific, or maybe they've made a catastrophic mistake, maybe the world sees them as a failure. Either from your life experience and/or George Washington as portrayed in this movie, what would be a word of hope to somebody might today feel like today's their worst day and they've failed, life's over, or they've just had a terrible experience? What would a word of hope be to that person?
Diederik Hoogstraten:
What a powerful question and an important one. Maybe I can combine experiences of young George and myself. I struggled with a lot of depression, alcohol and other bad substances were the answer to that. I think George was probably pretty depressed. That was not a word they would at the time. So I think in response, sure, you can be angry, sad, tears are great, isolating yourself can be necessary. But ultimately I would say open the door, open the window, let the light in, let the air in, let others in. It took me a while to learn this lesson. In fact, I married my wife a little bit later because it took me just a very long time to be able to say, "Okay, God, I hear you. I understand I am not supposed to live this life by myself." And in fact, trying to do so, it's not going that well.
So connect, open the doors, let the light in, take a deep breath. Those are big ones. If you can find the ability to live for something greater than yourself, whether that's kids or spouse, your God, your community, that's I think where the answer lies ultimately.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject has been spoken. And our guest today, Diederik Hoogstraten, has indeed spoken. So Warwick, we just finished a fascinating discussion with Diederik Hoogstraten, who is both someone who's been through crucibles and someone who's written a film that's coming out soon called Young Washington. And in that film, Young Washington, as in George Washington, goes through a lot of crucibles. So lots of topics, lots of ground covered. What are some takeaways that you would like our listeners and viewers to have from this discussion?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, thanks, Gary. It was an incredible discussion with Diederik and hearing about his life story, as well as the story of the young George Washington as portrayed in this incredible movie Young Washington that comes out July 3rd. Highly recommend seeing it. And so it's interesting that Diederik, he had crucibles as a kid. He had an illness that was sort of touch and go, that he kind of made it through that. And that began the beginnings of thinking about what is my purpose in life? How do I want my life to count? It wasn't fully formed, but he was beginning to think about that. He grew up in a family that was fairly progressive and it's just so funny as he watched Alex Keaton, The Family Ties. Somehow he identified with Alex Keaton and became, I guess, a little less progressive than his family and became a person of faith. Went to Columbia grad school for journalism and became a journalist and then a screenwriter.
And as a person of faith and his wife now works with the Wonder Project producing uplifting movies and movies that would cater to a faith-based audience. And so he's had his own challenges, but I love the way he wrote this movie and the way he and his wife and John Owen, who is the head of Wonder Project, his wife Kelly is the chief executive of the Wonder Project and they're such a great team, great actors in this movie. And really as you look at this movie Young Washington and the story of a young George Washington, you see throughout all the scenes, there's a lot of battle scenes, a lot of incredible moments, but it's really an evolution of George's character. We talk a lot Beyond the Crucible about the most important journey that you can go on is the inner journey, the journey of the soul. It's the soul work.
And you see in this movie a young George, he loses his dad when he's a young boy. A number of years later, he loses his half brother Lawrence. Life is hard. He doesn't have the money or the status to get a royal commission in the British Army. All he can get is into the colonial militia, the Virginia militia and he's looked down upon by the professional soldiers and he has challenges in a campaign in what was then thought of as the West in Western Pennsylvania into Ohio. He doesn't do so well and he comes back as a failure. And the generals, the British generals and the commanders, they view him as a failure and they're probably thinking, well, of course he's a colonial. He doesn't really have any formal education, which he didn't after his father died. He was self-taught, but he didn't go to school.
And rather than just say, "Okay, life is over," which he could have, he said, "Okay, I failed." But he shows incredible resilience. And he goes to General Braddock who was going to lead a campaign out to fight the French who have a bunch of forts in the Western part of the English colonies. He basically says, "Look, I know I failed, but I'll go as your aid, basically as your secretary, if you will." And General Braddock is pretty full of himself, admires this young George's humility and allows him to come. And there are great scenes where a young George Washington rescues his Virginia troops, or at least his Virginia countryman in really a scene of epic courage and bravery and it changes the arc of his career. The governor Dinwiddie played by incredible Ben Kingsley appoints him as a Colonel in the militia. And he's still not going to commission in the regular British army, but at least Colonel and the Virginia Militia and is now respected by the troops. So really by the Virginia militia.
Really, this movie shows the evolution of George Washington and really the growth in his character. Failure doesn't define him. We say all the time at Beyond the Crucible, your worst day doesn't have to define you. If you learn the lessons of your crucible, you can say that your worst day didn't happen to you, it happened for you. George Washington models that as well as anybody I can think of. He is not defined by his worst day. He picks himself up. He learns from his failures. He shows incredible humility. And really as history shows the greatness of George Washington is because of the greatness of his character. The fact that we have a United States is due in large part to George Washington, and that is due in large part to the greatness of his character. Read about George Washington, not just the battles and history which is important, but read about his character. Look for moments of evolution and strength of character. We can learn a lot from this movie and from George Washington.
Gary Schneeberger:
In light of what you're saying, he said three things Diederik Hoogstraten did that I think are interesting to talk about. One, he said that through his struggles with his crucibles, what Washington developed was three things we talk about all the time here, resilience, integrity, and service. That's one thing he said. The second thing he said was that you, Warwick Fairfax, are a very, very, very excellent viewer of movies because he complimented you... Sorry to embarrass you, but he complimented you on the way in which you apply what you watched in the film to ask questions. And then the third thing, probably the best thing to get your comment on is your note about without Washington going through what he went through, we wouldn't have America perhaps. And it made me think after he said that, I thought that's true for all of us. If we didn't go through our crucibles and come out the other side having learned lessons and applied them to living lives of significance, I know my life wouldn't be where it's at right now.
I think you'll probably say your life wouldn't be where it's at right now. And I'm sure Diederik thinks the same thing. Pick any of those points that you want to talk about. If you want to talk about more than one, go ahead.
Warwick Fairfax:
So many good points. Yeah, it is amazing George Washington's resilience and you make a very astute point. His failures made him the man that he was. And not just his failures, but how he dealt with them. He liked the fact that he was considered a failure after going to the wilds of Western Pennsylvania and Ohio and just being humiliated by the French troops and French commander. No, but he didn't let that failure define him. He learned from. He learned both the military tactics as well as just learnt and grew as a human being. That's really the greatness of Washington is his ability not to be defined by his worst day. And yet without those failures he wouldn't have the resilience that he needed and certainly in the revolutionary wars, as I mentioned in the podcast, he lost more battles than he won. He was not a great military strategist and history would tell you that.
He was up against the British army at the time the greatest army on the face of the planet in the late 1700s, early 1800s. But yet he knew that he had the wisdom to realize that survival is what matters. So he kept making sure that the American army would survive. He wouldn't go to pitch battles where he would lose and wipe out his whole army. He found a way to survive and eventually he got help from the French military and the American colonies eventually won. So yeah, the genius was really his humility and his character and he was willing to learn and grow. So there's so much we can learn. And you're right, if my crucible hadn't happened and I hadn't done the takeover or it had worked, I still would have been in Australia mined in this massive media company, but not really fitting in because I'm not a chief executive type. I'm a reflective advisor. There would be no Beyond the Crucible. There would be no book.
I met my wife Gail in Australia. We probably still would have been married, but our kids would have grown up there with being a Fairfax in Australia is like being a Rockefeller or a Bush in this country. It's not fun in the sense that people have expectations. Yeah, we wouldn't be doing this podcast. If either of us hadn't bounced back from our crucibles, then who knows? There wouldn't be a podcast. Would there be movie books that you write and have written? Who knows?
Gary Schneeberger:
No.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's like, would you have met your wife Kelly? Or you met her years before, but would you reconnect it?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Re-met her, yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
Probably not.
Warwick Fairfax:
You're right. You don't have to be defined by your worst day, but if you learn the lessons and don't let that failure define you, the best days can be ahead. You can be a stronger, better person than you ever possibly could have been. That's true. I think for us, it certainly is true of George Washington.
Gary Schneeberger:
For sure. Crucibles are the spark for a new life.
Warwick Fairfax:
Amen.
Gary Schneeberger:
So until the next time we are together, please remember what we've discussed here on this episode. Your crucible experiences are hard. Diederik's were hard, Warwick's were hard, mine have been hard. But what we've learned here and through the story of George Washington is that your crucibles aren't the end of your story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles, if you like Washington, develop resilience, integrity, and service, you can chart a course to a new destination that is the most rewarding destination you can ever reach, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
The most powerful advisers aren’t the ones who flatter — they’re the ones who refuse to let you quit. In this episode, we explore the remarkable story of Louis Howe, the man most historians credit as essential to Franklin Roosevelt becoming president of the United States.
Part of our ongoing series, More Stories From the Book Crucible Leadership, this episode unpacks not just who Howe was and how he shaped FDR’s trajectory, but what his example teaches us all about being a truly great adviser. From holding those we serve accountable when crucibles hit to speaking hard truths that prevent future ones, Howe’s legacy offers timeless lessons in loyalty, courage, and purpose-driven counsel.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. I think it may well be true that without Louis Howe, most of us would never have heard of Franklin Roosevelt. That's how important Louis Howe was to Franklin Roosevelt after arguably the defining moment in his life getting polio.
Gary Schneeberger:
Talk about not just a life-changing impact, that's a world-changing impact. And we discuss it all this week in our latest episode of the series within the show, more stories from the book Crucible Leadership. You'll learn not just who Louie Howe was and how he changed the trajectory of Franklin Roosevelt's life, but also the lessons he can teach us all about how to be a good advisor. From refusing to allow those we're advising to give up when crucibles hit to speaking truth to power to help them avoid future crucibles, these are just some of the actions Howe took that earned him the praise of history as the man who made Roosevelt.
Welcome friends to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. You've joined us at, again, an interesting time because we are doing another episode of what we call our series within the show and that is this year it's called More Stories From the Book Crucible Leadership. You can all applaud us for being creative because last year we did one called Stories From the Book Crucible Leadership. So this year there are More Stories From the Book Crucible Leadership. And Crucible Leadership is the book that Warwick wrote in 2022 that truly not making this up, not inflating it, if it weren't for Crucible Leadership beyond the Crucible would not exist. It's the book that birthed the brand. Each month, although with our summer series coming up starting in July, we're going to take a pause until September after this. But each month in what we're calling the series within the show, as I said at the top of the show, we'll feature one story from Warwick's book spotlighting one key learning that helped the subject of that story overcome a crucible and can help you do the same when you apply the lessons of it.
And we've edited an interesting twist this year at Warwick's suggestion because there were some stories that were in the final published book in 2022, Crucible Leadership. Some stories as it went through the editing process got excised, the cutting room floor as they say. So we're alternating back and forth between stories that were in the book and stories that were not in the book. And this is one of the stories that was indeed in the book. Although we did swipe a couple of things that didn't make the book. There's like a couple of call-outs that aren't in the book, but it's mostly a story that's in the book. So today we are going to talk about a man who made the cut and that is we'll be discussing Louie Howe. Louie Howe on being a good advisor. So Warwick, every episode I begin, I ask you this, both why is Louie Howe in the book and secondly, who was Louie Howe? Help people understand what we're about to talk about here.
Warwick Fairfax:
So not everybody's heard of Louie Howe, but the man that he spent his life helping, I'd say pretty much everybody's heard of this guy, certainly everybody in the United States. So the man that Louie Howe spent his life helping is President Franklin Roosevelt. And he was his closest advisor for many years leading up to the presidency during the Great Depression and the early '30s. Louis Howe was critical to Roosevelt's rise of the presidency and was particularly critical to Franklin Roosevelt as well as his wife Eleanor after Franklin Roosevelt got polio in 1921. I think it may well be true that Roosevelt may not have had a political career after being stricken with polio. As we get into more, polio was considered a political death sentence back then. It's hard to believe, but back in the day in the '20s and gosh, '30s, '40s, if you had polio, you were meant to just stay at home, be an invalid. Somehow it was shameful. It's just hard to understand, but that was the prevailing culture, certainly at the time when Roosevelt got polio in 1921. I think it may well be true that without Louis Howe, most of us would never have heard of Franklin Roosevelt. That's how important Louis Howe was to Franklin Roosevelt after arguably the defining moment in his life getting polio.
At that point, as I mentioned, Polio was almost like this political death sentence. You're meant to stay at home and be an invalid and Roosevelt may well have done that. He may well have hid under the covers, felt sorry for himself if it wasn't for Louis Howe encouraging him. So that's how important that Louis Howe was to Franklin Roosevelt. And in that sense, if you look at the impact that Roosevelt had on the nation of the United States and the Depression and in the Second World War, that's how important Louis Howe was to Roosevelt and to the United States and arguably the world, given the US's prominence in helping defeat Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in the war. So not everybody has heard about him, but he had a massive impact.
So who was Louis Howe? Louis Howe grew up in a prosperous Indianapolis family that ran into hard times. The family moved to upstate New York to Saratoga Springs and Howe started working at a young age for his father newspaper, the Saratoga Son. Now, Louis Howe first met Roosevelt in 1911. So at this point, Roosevelt is a young man and Roosevelt is in a senatorial fight against Tammany Hall for the New York State Senate. Tammany Hall was the political machine at the Democratic Party back then. And Roosevelt's persistence and eventual victory in this state senatorial fight really impressed Howe. And the first impression of Howe had of Roosevelt is quite striking. He said he was so impressed with Roosevelt, his seriousness, his earnestness, his dedication to the cause. And he said, "From that moment, we became friends." And Howe said these very telling and prophetic words. He said, "And almost at that very first meeting, I made up my mind that he was presidential timber and that nothing but an accident could keep him from becoming President of the United States." Well, Howe was almost true, nothing but an accident. You could say getting polio was almost like an accident, but even an accident didn't prevent him from becoming President of the United States in large part because of Louis Howe.
So as we mentioned, Howe first met Roosevelt in 1911 as a member of the New York State Senator as Roosevelt was and really from the beginning, Howe felt that Roosevelt, he had what it took to become president, he had the enthusiasm, the charisma, he had just this X factor that those who know who are in that political game, they see somebody and say, "This guy has what it takes. This person has what it takes." So Howe helped guide Roosevelt in 1913 when Roosevelt became assistant secretary of the Navy in President Wilson's administration and later on, Howe worked as Roosevelt's campaign manager during the 1920 presidential campaign. And Roosevelt was on the Democratic ticket and Roosevelt was candidate for Vice President of the United States alongside the presidential candidate, James Cox. Now, Cox lost a landslide to Republican Warren Harding, but in 1920, Roosevelt, it just seemed like the sky's said limit. He was a young guy and here he is, he was a former state senator in New York assistant secretary of the Navy under Wilson. And here he is vice presidential candidate for the United States. So it seemed like sky's the limit. This guy's stars on the rise.
Gary Schneeberger:
So why then did you use in your book Louis Howe as an example, as an illustration of being a good advisor? Because there's a lot of directions I think Louis Howe could have gone too, but he dedicated his career really to helping Franklin Roosevelt build his career. So why Louis Howe as a good advisor?
Warwick Fairfax:
So it's interesting. We haven't talked a lot about advisors and good advisors on Beyond the Crucible. What we do talk about quite a bit is the importance of having a team of fellow travelers. And what we mean by that is some fellow travelers, they can encourage us when we're down. Let's say we feel like it's our worst day, we're in the pit of despair and they say, "This day feels terrible, but tomorrow it might be a bit better. They encourage us, they're with us when we're down." That's one type of fellow traveler, those who encourage us. And the other are people who have skills that are different than ours. So maybe we work in a nonprofit or for profit company, maybe we're more of a visionary founder and others may be more marketing, public relations, marketing, manufacturing, operations might have skills that we don't have. A wise matter woman surrounds themselves with people who have different skills than they do? So that's really critical to have fellow travelers and not go it alone and say, "I've got it." Rarely do we just have it. There'll be days when we don't have it and we need help. That's why fellow travelers are important.
But there's a particular type of fellow traveler that really going to focus on today and that's absolutely critical to make our vision become a reality and it's certainly critical to folks who are leaders. And we feel that leadership, it can be of a small company, a large company, it could be just an initiative in your local neighborhood park. In that sense, I think we can all be leaders. We all have things that we're passionate about and we want to bring to reality. So having a good advisor is critical. So what is a good advisor? A good advisor comes alongside us and speaks truth to power. What it doesn't mean is just telling us what we want to hear. Now maybe that's the easy path, but that's not the good path. True leaders, true people that really want to get something done, get out of the pit of despair and get beyond their crucible, live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. They're absolutely committed to bring that vision to reality. Those kind of people want good advisors that will speak truth to power and be straight with them.
And good advisors, they'll offer wisdom directly or indirectly. Sometimes the most powerful advice comes from penetrating questions to cut to the core of our soul. You know it's a good question when you say, "I haven't thought about that. I need a minute because I'm not sure." Well, that's really just cut me to the core. That's a good question. And good advisors, they're fearless. They can't be intimidated. They will do whatever it takes to help the organization and help that person, even if that means getting fired or even if they're not a paid advisor, maybe it risks losing the relationship. A good advisor will risk losing the relationship, not in some burn the ships, a crusader mentality, but more they so believe in the person, they so believe in the vision that they will run the risk of getting fired or not being in that person's circle again because it's the right thing to do. They will do the right thing no matter what. That's what a good advisor will do. They have no hidden agenda. It's not about what they want to achieve. It's about helping the leader achieve their vision, helping the organization achieve their vision. That's what a good advisor is.
And when we look at that criteria, I have to believe that Louis Howe would be in the Hall of Fame for being good advisors. He may well be arguably the GOAT, the greatest difficult time of advisors. Certainly when you look at the challenges that Roosevelt faced getting literally out of bed, which was not easy when you've got polio and he had to walk with these heavy metal braces strapped to his legs. It was so difficult to walk. He had two sons who were athletic and well-built. They had to be because they helped their dad walk as he shuffled along, trying to make it look easy as he lent on his two sons. It was not easy for him to get out of bed. But Louie Howe was beside him in his darkest days and was there encouraging him that would speak truth to power. And really Louie Howe from 1911 on, when he met Franklin Roosevelt, he dedicated his entire political life, his entire working life to helping Roosevelt in his political career. That was his sole focus, no other agenda other than helping a man he deeply believed in further his career and hopefully become president.
Gary Schneeberger:
So I've got two follow-up questions. This has never happened before where I'm like, I have two follow-up questions over what you've just said. I'm trying to figure out which one I'm going to go to first. I'll go to the one I think will be a shorter answer first. It's important to note, you mentioned the importance of a good advisor speaking truth to power. It's also important to note though that if we want to have good advisors around us, we have to be people who are willing to let someone speak truth to "Power to us." Because that doesn't work. If you are not open to hearing unvarnished truth spoken to you to help you, it's going to be tough to have good advisors. That's fair, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a good and profound question. You can be the best advisor in the world, but you will not be able to do any good if the person you're advising, the leader you're advising is not open to input. Few people are because you need to be a very strong man or woman, a very strong leader to say, "I don't know everything. And sometimes not only can I be wrong, I can be very wrong." How many leaders in politics or business will say, "Hey, there are sometimes I'm really, really wrong. Sometimes I just completely miss it and I need people to help me and I need people around me, a team of certainly good advisors that will speak truth and I need the humility to be able to listen to them." It doesn't mean their advice is always right. We're all human, we're fallible, but I will listen to them. My default might be their advice may well be right until proven otherwise rather than the other way. I'm sure they're idiots until proven otherwise. Maybe one time in a million, they'll offer some good thought, the rest to the time they're idiots. Well, you've got to have a real sense of humility. Great leaders are humble.
I'm reminded of that book Good to Great by Jim Collins in which he analyzes some of the greatest business leaders as marked by returns on the stock market over a 15-year period long term success in the market. And what he finds in the data is the great leaders, the most successful, yes, they're driven, but they're humble. A humble leader takes advice. A humble leader takes input. So if you're not that kind of person, your chance of being successful will be a lot less. So it's such a good point that Louis Howe is a great advisor, but he needed somebody like Franklin Roosevelt that would listen to him and he trusted Louie Howe. He knew he was on his team. He knew his agenda was only for Franklin Roosevelt. So yet you got to be able to listen, otherwise good advice will go nowhere.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. So that was my first question. The second one actually it works out great because the second one speaks more to the qualities of the advisor. And you said at the very outset of our discussion here that most people who are listening and watching probably have never heard of Louis Howe. It seems to me that being somewhat unknown, flying beneath the radar, that's in the job description really of being a truly effective advisor, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. If your agenda is to get your name in lights, "Hey, I'm Louie Howe." And obviously no TV back then, but there was radio, there were movies. He could have gone to, I don't know what Hollywood or all of the big functions on the radio saying, "I'm the secret behind Franklin Roosevelt. He'd be nothing without me. He'd still be in the bed with polio." So it's really "Every smart thing that comes out of Roosevelt's mouth, it's all me. It's all Louis Howe." Now whether some of that might be true, not all of it, no, that's not a good advisor. A good advisor only has your interest at heart and their not looking for the limelight. They're looking for you to be the one that the world sees as successful, as really bringing their vision to reality is hopefully helping the world in some way, which certainly Franklin Roosevelt did. So yes. A good advisor will tend to be not as well known and people I think at the time knew how important he was, but he wasn't seeking adulation. He was just trying to help Franklin Roosevelt so it's a very good point.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right. Now we'll go back to our regularly scheduled program here of the things that we've already prepared for. And that is this pivotal truth. In a very real sense, Roosevelt may never have become president if it weren't for Louis Howe, right? Why was Howe so instrumental in Roosevelt's ascendance to the White House?
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's go back to 1921. Franklin Roosevelt was stricken with polio. He actually visited a boy scout camp shortly before this when people now believe that's where he contracted polio. He had a vacation placed in Campobello Island, which is in New Brunswick, Canada, not too far from the border with Maine in the US and Roosevelt was out swimming in the water. He came back felt chilled. I think one side of his body felt stiff and paralyzed and by the next day he was completely paralyzed from the waist down. He couldn't move his legs. Now at the time, as we've mentioned in 1921, having polio was considered a death sentence. It was mainly a disease that would affect kids. When they would get polio they would be told to stay inside. Parents would tell their kids, just don't go to the local public pool because I think it was thought that just being around kids there, they might contract it.
There was huge fear at the time of polio because there was no vaccine at the time, no cure, nothing could do. And so as I mentioned, it was considered like this political death sense, this career death sentence. You're meant to stay inside, be an invalid. During this time, Louie Howe sought to boost the spirits of both Franklin Roosevelt and his wife, Eleanor. And Howe would not give up on Franklin Roosevelt. Now I imagine when this first happened, Roosevelt might have been saying, "Well, my life's over. My career's over." As we often say, he might have thought he was in, I'm sure, the pit of despair. There's no way out, no vision I can bring to reality. My political career's done. Nobody's ever going to hear Franklin Roosevelt again. I wouldn't blame him if that's what he's thinking. But Louis Howe was dedicated to preserving the memory and enhancing it of Franklin Roosevelt.
So he encouraged Roosevelt to write statements on public issues and get them out so that people could read about them and write magazine articles and encouraged him to appear at the 1924 Democratic Convention. One of the things he also did was that he encouraged Eleanor Roosevelt to speak throughout New York State, to keep Franklin Roosevelt's name in the state of New York. And you have to remember that Eleanor Roosevelt back then, she was a shy reserved person. She was not used to public speaking. We think of the Eleanor Roosevelt later who, if memory serves me, I think she actually gave a speech after Franklin Roosevelt died to the United Nations. So it's hard to remember an Eleanor Roosevelt back in the early '20s in 1921. This is probably the last thing she wanted to do, but she was a very strong woman. And when Louis Howe said, "You've got to help Franklin, you've got to help keep his name in the public eye, you need to speak." And I'm sure that Howe coached her on how to speak and some thoughts she might want to consider saying, and so she did.
And this campaign was successful. In 1928, Governor Alfred Smith of New York got the Democratic nomination for presidency and Governor Smith urged Roosevelt to run for governor of New York and Roosevelt did win and became the governor of New York in 1928. Now, Republican Herbert Hoover beat Alfred Smith in the '28 election, but Roosevelt was back and this culminated in Howe's advisory role with Franklin Roosevelt when he became president in 1932. In those early years, Howe was appointed secretary to the president, which is really what we call the White House chief of staff, which is a critical position in the modern presidency. Howe did an amazing job, but how he got him out of bed literally and back in the public eye is remarkable. Because one of the other things that's important to note that Franklin Roosevelt's mother, Sarah, she subscribed to the traditional view. She urged Franklin to give up any hopes of further political office. She wanted him to stay in bed, be an invalid, and she would help care for him.
Now, Eleanor didn't have the same opinion that Sarah did, but her opinion was greatly helped by Louie Howe. So there were two voices. Sarah saying to Franklin, "Stay in bed, be an invalid, I'll care for you." And Eleanor, I think knowing that if that happened, she'd lose the husband she married, the person that really wanted to make a difference. And so with Louis Howe's help, Franklin Roosevelt didn't listen to his mother and came back from this devastating crucible of polio. One of the things we say is it didn't happen to you, it happened for you. Are you going to be defined by your worst day? Well, in this case, Franklin Roosevelt was not defined by his worst day.
And one of the things I've often thought of ... And this is really more about Franklin Roosevelt, is he was the son of, I guess you'd say, an aristocratic New York family, very old money New York family. And in his younger days, he was this charismatic, happy-go-lucky life at the party kind of guy. And yes, he may have been intelligent and charismatic, but can you imagine somebody like that in 1932 in the height of the depression, "Hey, I'm Franklin Roosevelt. I'm a wealthy guy. I go to parties, but I can help you. I can relate to you people in America who were struggling, who don't have jobs, who just trying to get food on the table, vote for me." I think he wouldn't have had a prayer. If they'd vote for that guy, there's no way.
But then when you see this guy, even though They shielded how bad what he went through was, people could see him with the braces struggling to get up. They would never show him in a wheelchair because that was considered political death and he was pretty much never shown in a wheelchair. In fact, the press, hard to believe back then they collaborated with him to avoid showing in a wheelchair. Can you imagine the press would never do that now. But back then they admired him. So it's just remarkable that without polio, I think he could make a good case, he never would've become president. Without Louie Howe, he would've just stayed in bed.
Gary Schneeberger:
And then unfortunately, as much as Howe was helpful to him, Howe's own life was cut short by his own illness and death, and that had an effect on Roosevelt, right? Even if people didn't know who Louie Howe was, the Roosevelt who went on after Louie Howe died, there was some personal political upshot to that, right? So how did that play out once Louie Howe was removed from the scene of Roosevelt's life?
Warwick Fairfax:
Unfortunately, Louis Howe's health declined and he died at 1936. Now, just to give an indication of Louie Howe's impact on Roosevelt, look at what was said about him in the press at the time. He was known as the man who put Franklin D. Roosevelt in the White House. That's how the press described him. Other people may not have known much about Louis Howe, the press did. They knew exactly how much impact that Louis Howe had. And for the first time in his political life, in some sense, Roosevelt was now alone. Yes, he had Eleanor, but he'd lost his key political advisor who had a really close pulse on the political environment, on the country. He was an invaluable source of advice and intelligence and somebody that Roosevelt would listen to. So Roosevelt was so devastated by losing Howe he actually had the White House flags flown at half-mast. This wasn't a Senator. This wasn't a former president. This was his advisor. I wonder if there's been any subsequent White House chief of staffs who when they've died and had the White House flag flown at half-mast. I'd be surprised if they were, but that just goes to show you how much Roosevelt admired and respected Louis Howe.
Roosevelt canceled all these appointments and activities for at least the next few days, was in seclusion. And some historians have said that the political mistakes that Roosevelt made in the years after Howe's death were due to the absence of Howe's incessant criticism and accurate assessment of public opinion. Howe's devotion and loyalty to Roosevelt was remarkable. He'd be able to say, "Hear what you're saying, Mr. President, but don't think the public's going to go for it. I don't think that's a hill we want to die on." That's the kind of advice I don't think he got elsewhere.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And you said as you began what you were just talking about, that Howe was known as the man who put Franklin Roosevelt in the White House. So there was absolutely insiders had information of the impact of another insider in Louis Howe, but how generally did history view Howe's importance to Roosevelt while he was in the White House and in fact going back to how he got into the White House?
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the greatest tributes to Louis Howe was given by Franklin Roosevelt's son, Elliot Roosevelt. And Elliot Roosevelt said this, "The person who was most responsible for the development of my mother's personality was Louis Howe as he was of my father. He was a man that gave my father the iron will and the ability to move ahead politically, which I don't think he would've ever done on his own. Louie Howe was probably the greatest influence on both my father and my mother's lives." Those are strong, strong words. Time Magazine after Howe's death, he wrote this, and these words are so well written. "Admirers he Roosevelt had by the millions, acquaintances by the thousands, advisors by the hundreds, friends by the score, but intimates such as Louie Howe, he had only one." That shows you what Time Magazine thought of Louie Howe. They deeply respected his impact. Howe's influence on Roosevelt? It was profound. Even after Roosevelt became president, Howe continued to speak to Franklin Roosevelt bluntly and frankly. He refused to let the aura of the presidency prevent him from offering honest advice. He was known by some as the man behind Roosevelt and the New York Times described him, Louis Howe as the president's other I. That's a dramatic statement.
Gary Schneeberger:
And not eye that you see out of, but other I capitalize, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Incredible. And this is what the New York Herald Tribune said of Howe. And these words are profoundly true. Speaking of Louie Howe, they said this, "His loyalty is not to himself or to an abstract ideal of government, but solely to Franklin D. Roosevelt." Now that's some advisor. And the New York Herald Tribune, they got to write. Louie Howe's loyalty was only to Franklin D. Roosevelt. Now that's an advisor. He wants to do whatever he can to help Franklin Roosevelt be successful and was willing to say whatever it took. He would speak truth to power. Now, did Franklin Roosevelt listen all the time? Probably not. But Roosevelt had such confidence in Louis Howe I better believe that he listened to him more often than not.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
Why wouldn't you?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. This is the part of these episodes where we're pulling stuff from your book that are really interesting to me because this is something that you did not write in your book, but personally in your own journey, your own professional and personal journey, being a good advisor is important to you. You've had good and bad advisors, you've been an advisor yourself. Why do you think the role of advisor is so important and what does it take to be a good one? Because that's something that Crucible Leadership didn't talk about. So talk about it here.
Warwick Fairfax:
I have quite a few things I'm very passionate about. I have very strong convictions. I don't always talk about everything that I believe in and strong convictions of just because I probably get tedious for people. But one of the things I have very strong convictions about is what it takes to be a good advisor. And there are reasons for that. I've had both good advisors and not so good advisors so it's no wonder I have strong opinions. So just a bit of the backstory. During my takeover of my family's 150-year-old media business in Australia, I had a number of advisors. Some were well-meaning, but arguably their advice wasn't as good as it should be. And some were not so well-meaning. They might've had ulterior motives. But both in a sense, were they well-meaning or not so well-meaning their advice from my perspective looking back was not that helpful. I had some, again, well-meaning. They said they'd been praying for God to raise up somebody in the heart of the media in Australia for years. In the sense they said that I was an answer to prayer. Well, that's a huge load to put on somebody that's 26 years old. You're an answer to prayer for the nation of Australia, for the media.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Not just to people, but like a country.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, right. Like God's anointed you or something. My gosh. And so that was well-meaning, but this only helped fuel my desire further to bring the vision of the company back in line with my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax, back in line with his vision and see the company was well run. And their hearts may have been in the right place, but what they and others didn't do is ask me a series of penetrating questions.
I've thought about that a lot. What would I have done? If I was somebody else going back in time knowing me the way I do, what questions would I have asked me? And here are some of the questions. I would've asked "So, Warwick, is this something that you want to do or are you just doing it because of your great-great-grandfather? I know your dad, Sir Warwick Fairfax." He had the same name as me other than he was knighted. He died in his 80s and early 1987, the same year that I did the takeover. "I know you're obviously devastated by your dad's death. Are you doing it because of his legacy? Are you doing it because some other family members threw your dad out as chairman 11 years before in 1976? Is it some kind of revenge thing?" Which wasn't consciously. Subconsciously who knew? That would've been an interesting question.
"Why are you doing this? You've told me, Warwick, that your dad didn't really agree with the direction of the company, had issues with management. Is that why you're doing it? Do you have the skills to do this? Do you want to be a chief executive or publisher of John Fairfax Limited? Is that really what you want to do in life? Are you doing it for you? Are you doing it because you want to make your dad and your great-great-grandfather proud in some sense? Why are you doing it? Is this really the right thing to do? Have you heard God's still small voice saying, 'You need to do this.'?" There's so many questions a good advisor would have said. Would I have liked that? I don't know. Would I have listened? I don't know that either. I'd like to think I would. I can't swear that I would, but I would have liked to been given the chance and I wasn't given the chance in that sense.
And I've mentioned, I had other advisors that I'm uncertain as to their motives. After the takeover was launched, these advisors, there were things they could have said because the company ended up with too much debt. Even before the October 1987 stock market crash, one of the things that really put us in trouble was that other family members sold out. They didn't want to be trapped in a company controlled by a 26-year-old. Who would? That added enormously to our debt. So when I said, "Okay, we're going to do this takeover, help me come up with the plan to make it work." Did they say, "Okay, so Warwick, your key assumption here is other family members aren't going to sell out." And I'd say, "Yeah, I don't think they will." A good advisor would have said, "That's crazy. You know your family but no rational person is going to stay in a company control by a 26-year-old. It won't happen. I'm telling you that is an assumption that's flat out wrong. It won't happen. If this takeover is predicated on that, don't do it because it won't work. That's just stupid.
I'm telling you, if the family sell out, the numbers won't add up. It'll go from challenging to it'll be a miracle if the company survives. That would have been speaking truth to power. I'd like to think that would have crossed my attention because this company had thousands of employees. Obviously, I didn't want to put that in jeopardy. So I would have had me thinking, but it didn't happen. They didn't say, This is nuts. They might have asked a question, but I would have liked people to speak truth to power. So yes, I have strong opinions about what a good advisor is. And ironically, subsequent to the failed takeover, I moved to the US in late 1990. My wife's American. I've lived here in the US ever since. And I've actually been an advisor. I've been on the other side and I've tried to be the kind of advisor that I didn't get. That's why I have such strong opinion. That's why it's so personal. I've been an elder at my church for many years, which is a non-denominational evangelical church. I was on the school board of a private Christian school for a number of years and there's some faith-based organizations I advise to this day.
And when I'm an advisor, I'm fearless. It's funny, I'm somebody that's fearful about a number of things, but when I'm in an advisor mode, whether it's on a board, being an elder, advising a number of organizations, I am fearless in that particular context. And why? Well, I feel like from almost a biblical perspective that I try to work hard as unto the Lord. And so I try to speak truth to power. I try to do it diplomatically, but I can be direct if I need to if that's what's required. And sometimes that might be the people who are good friends of mine on these organizations and I try to act in their best interest and the best interest of the organization. Now, I'm a certified international coach federation executive coach. So sometimes I offer my advice through questions and often that is the better way to offer advice. But whatever it takes, whether it's asking questions or giving direct advice, I don't hold back. For the most part, I would say that advice has been well received. That's not necessary, but obviously that's a blessing. I feel like, "Okay, I am making a difference when I offer my advice." And so yeah, that's one of the things I do as an advisor and it's a role I think it's so important because very few people have people that will be willing to speak truths to them no matter what.
I try to do it nicely and kindly, but one way or the other, I make sure that they hear what I'm saying and I let go of the consequences because it's not my life and move on for the most part pretty good about that because I'm not the person making the decisions. I'm just the advisor. So I really try to not hold it too tightly because it's their life, not mine, and I respect that, but I want to be the kind of advisor that gives them advice that I didn't get.
Gary Schneeberger:
I'm going to get personal here for a minute and talk about I've always thought of good advisors, the people to surround yourself with are those who not just people who will commiserate with you, not just people who will celebrate with you, but people who will elevate you. That has been my experience. Because you mentioned here about how that Time Magazine said that he was an intimate of whom Roosevelt only had one. So it was described by Time Magazine as an intimate. I just want to give a shout-out to a friend of mine who started out as just a professional advisor, worked for me, but then we developed, right, he became an intimate in his name. Shout out to you, Rajeev Shaw. "What's up, bro? You're on the podcast But my friend Rajeev fits exactly what you're talking about. There was a time eight, nine years ago when personally I was pondering a decision that he knew about and he had to pray through it. He had to summon the courage to do it and he had to confront me about what was not in his estimation, the right move for me to make. And what it is immaterial. What is material for this discussion is that he put our friendship, a decade long friendship on the line by confronting me with something that in his estimation and his counsel was not something that I should do.
We still talk about that and we're closer now than ever, but if it wasn't for that concern, that counsel, that being an advisor, I could have trundled off into some bad territory in my professional and my personal life. So it's true that people who are good advisors like Howe to Roosevelt can become intimates who can speak life into some pretty dying situations in our lives. That's a pretty fair assessment, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
That's such a great point and great example. Rajeev Shaw was willing to speak truth to a friend. He didn't know how it would be received. He'd say, "Rajeev, you're nuts. What are you talking about?" That he risked the relationship because he cared about you. That's a true friend that's got to be willing to risk it all for your benefit. And I think as you're implying, you listened to him, you listened to his advice. Now what does that do now as you think of Rajeev and what do you do? What does that do for your friendship when he's willing to risk it all for you? What does it make you feel now about Rajeev?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. He elevated me. We commiserated plenty of times. We celebrated many times and we still do both to be honest with you, but he elevated me and he still does that too. So those are the best relationships in my experience to have where you can have someone who is willing to put it on the line to elevate your character, to elevate your outlook, to elevate your actions. That's the kind of thing that he did for me and that it's made a huge difference in my life.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And really, as you look back on Rajeev, I'm sure you were good friends before. You probably became even better friends afterwards.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, for sure.
Warwick Fairfax:
You admired him before, but it's like, when I needed you, Rajeev, you had my back. So it's like it wasn't that you lack confidence before, but that kind of thing, it takes a friendship and respect to a whole other level. Is that fair?
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, that's fair. Absolutely fair. Now so that if he does listen to this, he doesn't think I'm getting too mushy. I'm just going to have to say my special nickname for him, which is, all right, calm down chuckle butter. Everything's fine. Okay. And we'll move on with the show, Warwick. Our wrap up here is what are the big takeaways from Louie Howe's service to Roosevelt that we discussed today that can help our listeners and viewers become better advisors and fellow travelers?
Warwick Fairfax:
Louis Howe's sole motivation was to help further the career of Franklin Roosevelt. That was it. He wanted to help his friend, the person he admires so much, Franklin Roosevelt. Now when Roosevelt was a young man, clearly Howe saw something in him in Roosevelt that was different. He saw that this young guy, he had the makings of a successful politician, somebody who would even be president one day. Roosevelt was charismatic, he was personable, high energy and Louis Howe was an astute person. He knew politics and this guy has what it takes. He could go all the way. It wasn't just professional. Louie Howe was willing to do whatever it took to help Franklin Roosevelt the man. And the way Howe came alongside Franklin Roosevelt in 1921 when Roosevelt got polio, it is just amazing.
Again, as we've said, having polio, it was a political if not career death sentence. But even when Roosevelt may have been feeling bad about himself, which would be completely understandable, here he was a year before in 1920, the candidate for Vice President of the United States, just one year before. The sky's the limit. Most people would be feeling like, "This is so unfair. I've got my whole life ahead of me. I could become president potentially. What is the deal? This is so unfair." But yet Louis Howe wouldn't give up on Roosevelt. Not only was he saying, "Look, tomorrow will be better." He had a plan. He had a plan for how Roosevelt's going to get out of the bit of despair. Okay. Franklin, I know this is tough, but you can write articles. It'll be published in various publications and circulars. Okay, Eleanor, I know you're not used to public speaking and you're not used to being the limelight. Franklin needs you. You need to go speak throughout the state of New York. Keep Franklin's name up there. 1924 Democratic Convention. Franklin, I think you need to find a way to be there to be prominent. 1928 election comes by and Franklin Roosevelt becomes the candidate and then the governor of the state of New York.
This was all Louis Howe pushing Roosevelt, not in a place he didn't want to go. It wasn't like Louis Howe was trying to force Roosevelt to go into direction he didn't want to. Roosevelt had all the skills and abilities to be a successful politician. He was a smart man, charismatic, knew how to get on with folks, but Howe gave Roosevelt the strength to do that which he wanted to do. He helped Franklin Roosevelt listen to Eleanor and ignore his mother, Sarah. His mother, Sarah, like many of the times to just stay in bed, Franklin, be an invalid. They were from a prominent New York state aristocratic family. They had money. They had the ability to just live in a nice house and be cared for. But Louis Howe knew that this would have killed Franklin Roosevelt. He would have been a shadow of his former self. He would have been thinking what might have been. I could have made a difference, what might have been. And that would be death by a different name, death of what might have been. You don't want to be that person. And Louie Howe wouldn't let that happen.
He had a very willing partner, if you will, in Eleanor, but he strengthened Eleanor. He gave Franklin Roosevelt's strength to come back from what he came back so that he wouldn't be defined by his worst day. And it's worth remembering again these telling words of Franklin Roosevelt's son, Elliot. We've mentioned them before. It's worth remembering as we sum up Louie has impact on Franklin Roosevelt. Again, Elliot Roosevelt's words. The person who was the most responsible for the development of my father's personality was Louis Howe as he was of my father. He was the man that gave my father the iron will and the ability to move ahead politically, which I don't think he ever would have done on his own. Louie Howe is probably the greatest influence on both my father and my mother's lives. We would all be fortunate to have somebody like a Louie Howe in our lives who would speak truth to power, who speak truth to us and his only motive, the soul motive was in our best interest and the best interest of the organization. We would all be so blessed to have somebody like Louis Howe in our lives.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, that'll wrap up this sixth episode of our series within the show, More Stories From the Book Crucible Leadership. We'll turn the page in September. That's the next time we're going to turn the page in September after our summer movie series to another story to help you turn the page and move beyond your crucible to a life of significance. We will see you then.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Sometimes the greener grass isn’t somewhere else — it’s something you build. In this episode, brothers Dale and Brian Karmie share how their search for meaningful work led them to launch ForeverLawn, now a leader in the synthetic turf industry.
Their journey hasn’t been without deep hardship, including the devastating loss of Dale’s daughter. Yet through every crucible, they’ve remained grounded in faith, committed to purpose, and driven to create opportunities that impact others. Their story is a powerful reminder that purpose can grow in any field — and in any season — if you’re willing to pursue it.
To learn more about Dale and Brian Karmie and their business, visit foreverlawn.com
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Mark Divine:
Everyone who shows up is physically prepared or else they wouldn't be there. And they're cognitively prepared. Their IQ, they passed a battery of tests and everything. But it's mental and emotional resiliency and your capacity to be an exceptional teammate that will determine whether you get through. Those are tough to measure, right? They're tough to measure. And they can only be exposed in the crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Mark Divine, discussing what his Navy SEAL training taught him about unlocking human potential through integrated training and mental toughness, leadership, and physical readiness. It's led him to create the Unbeatable Mind System, a framework that integrates physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual development that he now teaches to clients that include the next generation of SEALs.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Mark, it's wonderful to have you here on the podcast. Really appreciate you being on. And just before we get started, I want to read a brief bio, which is, I got to say, very impressive. Dr. Mark Divine, PhD, is a retired Navy SEAL commander, New York Times bestselling author, founder and CEO of SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mind, founder of Multiple Million Dollar Businesses, lifetime martial artist, ashtanga yoga teacher, and host of The Unbeatable Mind Podcast, which was recently rated a number one health podcast, and number 30 overall on iTunes, which is truly impressive.
And just to give folks some background, Mark has written a number of incredible books. We're going to talk a bit about his latest book Uncommon: Simple Practices for an Extraordinary Life, but there are others. And these are incredible titles, Unbeatable Mind: Forge Resiliency and Metal Toughness to Succeed in Elite Level, The Way of the SEAL: Think Like an Elite Warrior to Lead and Succeed. I love this title, Staring Down the Wolf: 7 Leadership Commitments that Forge Elite Teams. I mean, that is... What a title. 8 Weeks to SEALFIT: A Navy SEAL's Guide to Unconventional Training for Physical and Mental Toughness. And Kokoro Yoga: Maximize Your Human Potential to Develop the Spirit of a Warrior.
So I mean, every one of these titles are amazing. We'll get to Uncommon here in a bit. But tell us, Mark, a bit about your backstory. From what I understand, you grew up in a very small town in upstate New York, and your path was going on a certain trajectory, I think, from where you grew up. So talk about what was life like for young Mark and where was your life headed? What was the trajectory that was sort of, I don't know about mapped out for you, but kind of there was a trajectory in place perhaps.
Mark Divine:
Yeah. First, Warwick, thanks for having me on this show. I really appreciate it. It's great to meet you. I'll try to do the condensed version of this story. I can tell it in 45 minutes or five minutes. We'll try the five minute version. Yeah, so upstate New York, Barneveld, 375 people. And that was a little isolating, you might say. But there's a lot of good there too. Just beautiful surroundings, so I got to spend a lot of time outside. And this is pre-internet, pre-cell phones, as you know, we grew up and we had to be creative. And that was good for me because inside the home was a little bit turbulent. My father was pretty much a raging alcoholic and abusive. And my mom, the classic codependent, and I love them to death and forgive them for everything, but it really shut me down.
So I found a lot of solace being out in nature. And that played into me being an endurance athlete because I used to run like a billy goat up and down the Adirondack Mountains. And that was how I found a little bit of peace. Well, I became a pretty good competitive swimmer and I was academically... When that happens, when you grow up in traumatic situations, obviously, then you seek validation externally. So I of course did that as an overachiever. And that was good because that led me to a good university, Colgate University. I was recruited to swim competitively there.
So I did that routine, never once questioning who Mark really is, right? We didn't have that in our cultures, right? Maybe today we do, but you and I growing up, we didn't have mechanisms to question things very well. You just followed the song that was playing in the background. Well, the song that was playing in my background was my... We're a business family. Divines had a business that's over 100 years old, one of the legacy family businesses that survived World War I and World War II, and the boys went back and ran the family business. Well, because I was smart and went to Colgate, I thought, "Well, at least I can try something else en route to that, maybe put some money in the bank." And I followed some of my friends down to New York, got a job with Coopers & Lybrand, which is now Pricewaterhouse, PWC. And it was a program where they sent us to NYU to get our MBA, or MS in accounting, but then I got my MBA.
So I was off to the races, going to climb the corporate ladder, had a great job, was going to be an NBA CPA and all that. Well, what changed for me, the inflection point for me was I got into a martial arts program. I was looking for something additional that was more than sports to help me grow, to help me open up, to help me figure out what the hell was going on. And I had some experience from a college roommate where I watched him evolve through a martial art. I said, "Huh, there's something there." Well, when the student's ready, the teacher or the teachers will appear. And I walked into this studio called World Seido Headquarters. Seido means the Art of Sincerity.
And the grand master was a Japanese man who was very famous in Japan and he was unique. He was my first true mentor, even a father figure. And what was really unique about him was he was the full money, right? He was an integrated human being, body, mind, soul. And he acted and presented completely different than any other human being I'd ever come across in my life. And I was just absolutely floored and I wanted to taste that. And I found out that he led a Zen class. So not only was he the founder of this martial arts school, had all these incredible powers, I could tell you stories about some of the things I saw him do that you would not believe, right? Not believe. But that, again, inspired me. It showed me that the human being was capable of so much more than we'd been led to believe.
Anyways, I found out about the Zen class and here he is, he's a Zen master masquerading as a karate instructor, and he let me into the Zen class. So at the right page of 21, I started meditation and I never stopped because I found it... Partly because I trusted him so much and I had that container where if I just do what he says, I really believe that it's going to work. And that's really important to have a teacher who has a credible path, Zen being a credible path, for mental and emotional development. And that's what happened, but it happened at a very rapid pace because I was training so hard and so committed. It completely cracked my mind wide open, back to your origin story question, to where suddenly I had these experiences, right?
At first, I was able to settle my mind and focus and concentrate. And then I had this experience of distancing where I became the observer of my thoughts and emotions instead of thinking I am my thoughts and emotions. And that's when I could see that the story that I had been spoonfed growing up in this family and in this culture and everything wasn't my story. It was a story. So for the first time in my life, I started to ask questions, and that led to the dangerous question, "Who am I really?" And that completely changed my life.
Warwick Fairfax:
That was a game changer. And talk a bit about that because you would obviously know this very well, but we often think of the outward journey, but in some senses, the scarier, more important journey is the journey within, who are we? Why are we here?
Mark Divine:
Yeah, it's the most important journey. And the sooner you can get to that, then the sooner you can transform your life. Transformation does not come from the outside, right? That's the world duality of creation and that's where you're supposed to express your inner creativity. But if you're blocked from it, then you're going to be expressing it in ways that'll ultimately trap you. And that's what would have happened with me. So Nakamura taught me how to just slow down and be comfortable sitting in stillness. And it's in stillness that your creative expression and how you're supposed to be in the world is revealed to you. So how that worked for me is once I... You have to be very patient when you start with meditation. There's a lot of people don't succeed because they think it's going to be like I go to the gym and if I work out for three months, I'm going to lose some weight and see some six pack abs. Well, maybe three, maybe six months, maybe a year, and you will.
But with meditation, you don't have objective measures of progress, right? They're subjective. And we're not even taught to know what to look for. What I experienced was this growing sense of ability to just sit there with my thoughts. And at first at a distance where they weren't disturbing me, I didn't need to grab onto them and ride them and create some drama. But even then in abeyance where there was no thinking, but I was completely present and I used the term witnessing, which I later learned was a pretty common term for that experience. And it was in the witnessing moments where I kept getting this sensation bubbling up, and I would say bubbling up from my heart region, that I was a warrior and I was meant to be a warrior.
So I started to have a midlife crisis at 22 years old because I'm like, "How the heck am I supposed to be a warrior if I'm a CPA? That doesn't seem..." I'm not saying there aren't warrior CPAs out there. There probably are, but it didn't seem like the way I was supposed to be a warrior. So then I turned my question around to that. It's like, "If I'm supposed to be a warrior, then how?" And mind you, I wasn't thinking military, right? My father had a very distasteful experience with the military and so he kind of passed that down to me, like military is for people who can't get a real job, for low lives. And he was actually told by a judge, "Because you drove your car into the fraternity house drunk, you can either A, go to jail or B, join the army." He goes, "B, I'll choose B." So he didn't have a great experience with the military.
At any rate, so synchronicity happens when you are asking the right questions and you're not blocking the answers and you're starting to entertain them. So I'm entertaining this idea that I'm a warrior. "How am I supposed to be a warrior?" And then I'm walking home from work in reverie one day pondering this idea and I literally stumble across the Navy recruiting station and there's a poster there and the top of the poster said, "Be someone special." Now that caught my attention because I didn't feel very special based upon how I grew up. But it had Navy SEALs doing really cool shit. And it didn't say anything about the SEALs. It was just a bait and switch poster for the recruiters. But I looked at that, said, "Whoever they are, that's how I'm supposed to be a warrior."
Then long story short, all sorts of cool things happened with me practicing different things like visualization. I ended up getting one of two slots from the civilian world to go to Officer Candidate School to get commissioned and with a direct route to BUD/S, basic underwater demolition SEAL training after that. And so I left New York behind in 1989 with my MBA, my CPA, my first degree black belt in karate, and $100,000 job in 1989, I walked away from it all to be a Navy SEAL. I went through Navy SEAL training in 1990 and completely changed my life. And I guess I feel very fortunate to have discovered my path at such a young age. And it's one of the things I'm very passionate about helping others try to uncover and discover and get aligned because it is the most important thing in your life, I think.
Warwick Fairfax:
So can you imagine an alternate universe, your roommate didn't talk to you about meditation and that dojo that you walked past. And I think of that quote by Thoreau when he talks about people living lives of quiet desperation, that could have been you.
Mark Divine:
That could have been me.
Warwick Fairfax:
Gone back to upstate New York and work for decades in the family of business thinking, "Is this all there is?" I mean, you ever think about that could have been you?
Mark Divine:
Right. And I would have been a fraction of the man that I am today and the whole thing would have been a crucible, right? Because I would have been misaligned and yet not having any understanding of what was wrong, right? So that's where that anxiety builds over years and years and people turn to alcohol, and I would have turned to alcohol because that was the go to for my family. I'm not sure I'd be around today. That's how important it is.
If you don't align with your truth, and that is that underlying overarching reason that you incarnated, which is going to then expose the lessons you're meant to learn as an evolutionary being, then you're just going to have bigger and bigger challenges because the universe is going to try to right you, try to steer the back. And the further off course you get, the more and more challenging it gets, right? This is why people have major breakdowns and life and death accidents and cancer and all that. So the sooner that you can do the inner work, like you said, then the better off you're going to be because you can get on the right track.
Warwick Fairfax:
You have sort of an amazing, amazing journey, that journey of self-discovery and just turning your back. I'm sure at the time you probably had friends and family saying, "You're doing what? You were influenced by who? And you're going to go in the, say it ain't so, military? You're selling out everything we as a family believe in."
Mark Divine:
Yeah. Everything, right? I was throwing everything away. I was walking away from the family, turning my back in the family. My dad sent me a letter and said, "Get the rocks out of your head." All right. So I just had to stay the path and know that eventually they would see, and they did. And they actually came to my graduation. I graduated number one in my class. That's kind of the part of the story of what led me to what I do today is like, I learned so much from Nakamura over those four years and I wanted to continue that. So I continued using the skills, right? Every day, meditation, breath work, the visualization that I first learned from my college swim coach, who was a real pioneer in sports psychology. And I started to teach them to my small team during SEAL training, because you have what's called a boat crew. So I had six other guys with me.
We formed up right before Hell Week when things started to shake out and like 40 people had already quit the class out of 180. And then we went through Hell Week and we were so locked on because I began to teach them these skills that we became indomitable. And we actually secured Hell Week early by six hours and got nice and dry, and we watched the class get hammered for an extra six hours. And then all six of us, seven of us sailed through training. And the end of training, nine months, there were only 19 of us left of the 180 and seven of them were me and my team. So that had such a profound impact on me like, "Okay, I think I want to continue to develop these ideas and then made me someday teach them." And that's exactly what I did.
So when I got off active duty in 1997 or so, I started a company called NavySeals.com. I actually started two companies, right? I was an overachiever. I started the Coronado Brewing Company, which it's a pretty good size microbrewery now. And I got out of that about five years later because my partners were my brothers-in-laws and that didn't go so well, as you can imagine. But I started NavySeals.com and through that, I bought that domain for like $35.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh my gosh.
Mark Divine:
I know. Thinking-
Gary Schneeberger:
That's crazy.
Mark Divine:
... if someone's going to do this, but it should probably be a SEAL. That was my naive thinking. The Navy later on didn't love that I owned it, but they often didn't offer to buy it from me either. They tried to take it from me. I said, "No, that's not how this is going to work." Anyways, so with that platform, I was selling gear, so we had e-commerce. And then I had forums back in the early days of the internet, remember forums? So we had all these training forums and I was giving guidance to include everything I'd learned from Nakamura, nutrition, health, training. And that led to me getting hired by the Navy to mentor Navy SEALs nationwide on a government contract.
Now, this is another one of my crucibles where I had that contract for a year and we just absolutely performed brilliantly. We took the pass rate on the screening test from 30% up to over 87%. We helped improve the quality of the recruit SEALs coming into SEAL training, which over time improved the throughput because we were trying to get more SEALs into the force. But the contract got literally stolen right out from under me by Blackwater USA. You've probably heard of that company.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Mark Divine:
Yeah. They were the yeehaws running around Iraq, killing innocent-
Gary Schneeberger:
Erik Prince.
Mark Divine:
Right, Erik Prince.
Gary Schneeberger:
Erik Prince the owner.
Mark Divine:
He wanted that contract so badly for the PR value because it was a very high profile mentoring Navy SEAL candidates. Anyways, took a $10 million contract, ripped it right out for me. And everyone's saying, "Mark, you got to fight that. That was fraud." And it was. And I said, "No, I'm not going to fight that." I went back to the meditation bench and started asking those questions again. And the answer that came to me is, "You know what? You don't want one client in the US government telling you what you can't do," because they were telling me I can't do the inner domain stuff, "You can't teach these kids visualization, breath work, meditation. You can't do that because we don't have any evidence that it works. What we want you to do is just take them to the pool and beat the shit out of them, make them tough." And we could do that too, but that was not the whole package.
So I decided to launch a business that really kind of sprung out of NavySeals.com and I called it SEALFIT. And I launched a program where these students could come live with me for 30 days at a really cool training center I developed in Encinitas, California that looked like a mini BUD/S compound, mini Navy SEAL training. We trained every morning, every day from like 5:00 AM to 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00, sometimes around the clock every single weekend. We had one day off in 30 days. And that was my Petri dish. And out of that, I developed the 8 Weeks to SEALFIT training regimen, and that book became a New York Times bestseller, and it was used by a lot of the military and law enforcement first responders. And then also the Unbeatable Mind Model, which was all the training of the inner domain. And I wrote a book about that, and then that became a separate company later on. It was an incredibly creative period in my life, and just really extraordinary.
And by the way, I'll end this piece on this, the students that I trained have a 90% success rate getting through Navy SEAL training. It's like upside down from the average Navy SEAL. And they're really... If you get to the front door of BUD/S, you are prepared, right, supposedly. But 90% fail. And the students that I trained, they would get to BUD/S and thrive with a smile on their face and 90% would succeed, which is cool. So the Navy kind of started to take notice and now they're integrating these principles and training into the BUD/S program along with the Air Force and some other special ops programs.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it's amazing what you're saying because one of the things you write about is in your BUD/S class, you mentioned out of 185 candidates, 19 graduated. That's a pretty low percentage, but it may be normal. And as you mentioned, you finished first, but it seems like, as you were saying, I mean, I'm sure everybody that goes in there must be supremely fit athletes, just walking in. So that's a given, otherwise you wouldn't even enter the doorway. But it's that mental toughness. And you give one example of you were at the bottom of the pool and some instructor that I guess was nicknamed Dr. Evil, which I guess kind of says it all, but talk about what you did because a lot of people wouldn't have got out of that dilemma that you're in. But it was your mental toughness that would have enabled you to survive that test.
Mark Divine:
Right. So first off, you're right. Everyone who shows up is physically prepared or else they wouldn't be there. And they're cognitively prepared. Their IQ, they passed a battery of tests and everything. But it's mental and emotional resiliency and your capacity to be an exceptional teammate that will determine whether you get through. Those are tough to measure, right? They're tough to measure. And they can only be exposed in the crucible. BUD/S in itself is a crucible. But then there's many crucibles along the way, Hell Week being the most famous. So Hell Week is six days of nonstop training, around the clock, no sleep.
So give you examples, we had 185. By the time we got the Hell Week, which seven weeks into our training, we had already lost 40, so we're down about 140, 145. And when we got out of Hell Week, we had about 45. And then those 45 whittled down to 19 by the end of the training, which was another five months. Anyways, so this particular incident was another crucible. It's called pool competency, right? So it's designed to test your ability to control your mind and your emotions in one of the most dangerous situations that you can be, which is underwater cut off from an air supply.
So they literally, you go down with a regulator and tanks on your back and it's an old system they use intentionally because it has these two hoses they call it a double hose system. So you get down to the bottom of the deep end of this pool, the combat training tank, which is Navy SEAL speak for pool, and you just kind of hang out, and then suddenly you get attacked, and you get attacked by a Dr. Evil type character, and he literally beats the shit out of you underwater, rips all your gear off, your face mask, your fins, your weight belt, and he rips your tanks off, and then he takes that double hose and he ties into a knot and cuts off all potential for any air. And you just got to wait patiently for him to finish messing with you.
And then when he's done messing with you, a minute or minute and a half into this thing, you've got to find your gear and you got to don your equipment, you got to don it in the right order. And the right order isn't to go for the air first, it's to get your mask on so you can see. And then you go start to work on the tanks, and you try to get this knot undone. And boy, it is not easy, so to speak, to undo a knot underwater when you have all that anxiety of now you're two and a half, three minutes of holding your breath.
So for me, I found it to be much easier than most as a result of the training I had done because my mind was really calm and I had a mantra to maintain that calmness. And I'd been practicing breath work for now five years, so I had a really good lung capacity. And I also could tell when air was really necessary versus just the natural inclination to think, "Oh, I need to breathe." So I was able to hold my breath for a while. But it was the calmness under pressure that was really that made the difference. I literally had to get my foot up there and yank on this regulator. Finally, a little pop of bubble, a couple bubbles came out, a little stream. So instead of keep working, I just put the whole thing in my mouth and let it fill my mouth up and then I swallowed that into my lungs, gave me another 30 seconds.
So those are the types of crucibles that the SEALs would curate for you in a very controlled environment. This is dangerous work, mind you, but they had safety swimmers and people do shallow water blackouts and they'd get them out and they revive them. And I don't think they've had anyone die in that particular evolution. I mean, students have died at BUD/S before because it's extremely dangerous training.
But this is one way, Warwick, that I think that we can talk about crucibles being really beneficial for growth. I have a section in my book, The Way of the Seal, I say, "Bring the challenge to you before it comes to you on its own." So you can do things to curate a safe crucible experience that will give you a tremendous amount of mental, emotional resiliency, a deep awareness and appreciation for what you're really capable of. And as you're enduring the crucible, because you've selected and committed to endure the crucible, you have a growing insight and awareness that question who you really are.
Which is one of the things we did at SEALFIT, we created these 50 hour, 24 hour and 12 hour crucibles, and they were nonstop trainings. So the 50 hour one was world famous because people come from all over the place for it, to get this experience of what is it like to train the hardest training in the world for 50 hours nonstop, no sleep. And the students say there's kind of life before that experience and life after because life after everything that seemed hard is now not hard, right? Things that really used to stress them out, now they have a great distance from and a perspective that that's not a big deal. And that's the benefit of the crucible, right? That's the beyond the crucial. Beyond it, you see, "Oh, it actually was necessary." It was very useful and beneficial, albeit painful, but you have a great sense of gratitude for it.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've just talked, Mark, about just general crucible experiences. The folks who are listening and watching this right now who are not going to go through Navy SEAL training, but how they can apply what you know, what you've learned, what you've practiced. And there's something that you said that I think fits in here for everybody who's listening and viewing. And you said this, "The way you do anything is the way you do everything." How does that apply to average "everyday" crucibles that we go through as it's applied to your own life? You learn that through the experiences you've talked about, but that applies to all of us in our own realms, right?
Mark Divine:
Well, I first heard that in the SEALs, we were fond of saying that, and it was really about paying attention to detail. So if you were someone who didn't really pay attention to their gear and you didn't think it was a big deal because maybe you'd already taped up your gear a couple weeks ago, you didn't need to tape it up for stealthiness this time, or you didn't clean it from yesterday. Well, eventually your gear will fail you. But the reality is, if you're shortchanging your own gear, then where else are you shortchanging your life?
So later on, as I developed an awareness, I took that meaning of the way you do anything is the way you do everything, to be much more about awareness and presence, right? So when you develop greater awareness, which is synonymous with greater presence, then everything, every moment, every interaction, everything you do, you put your full attention to. And because you're giving your full attention, you're giving it everything that you have. And the results that accrue from this are extraordinary because you're not throwing your energy around and thinking you're getting further ahead by multitasking because you're not.
You're not focusing on the wrong things because with growing awareness, you're able to see what's the right thing to focus on. You stop taking on so many commitments because you realize how bogged down and contracted you get when you over commit and you've got too many things, too many resentments that you took this project on or that project or this didn't work or that didn't work. You're not able to let that shit go, because we have claw marks on things that we start and don't want to let go of, to include our businesses or family businesses. So we want to develop this capacity to be very present and discerning with where we put our attention and with the people and the tasks that we take on.
So this is where the warriors principle of simplicity comes in. And I think everyone who's been through a very challenging crucible has It was this experience like, "Wow, life is precious. I don't need to keep on putting points on the board and I don't need to keep on taking on new commitments and distracting myself because everything I have is right here, right now, right in front of me. Everything I need, I mean, is right here right now, right in front of me." And people on their deathbed, they don't go back and say, "I wish I had started more businesses and put more money in the bank." They say is, "I wish I'd spent more time with my family."
Warwick Fairfax:
I want to talk a bit about your latest book, Uncommon. And one of the things I love how you start that book is you have a whole series of statements about what common is. And there's a twist to this after you read it. So you state, "Common is going to business school because dad approves, though your dream is to be a Navy SEAL or become a digital nomad. Common is continuing to eat crappy food because you don't have the time to prepare healthy meals. Common is knowing your relationship isn't going to last but not having the courage to end it. Common is blowing off studying for the kegger, you'll make up the studying the next day. Common is blaming your parents for your less savory qualities rather than taking control of your mind and life to change things for the better. Common is dreaming about becoming an uber successful entrepreneur during your 9:00 to 5:00, yet not taking definitive daily action towards the goal. Common is keeping your mouth shut when you see abuse or injustice because you're afraid to take action. Common is knowing there's an entrepreneur, warrior, artist, teacher, or influencer inside you, that you're too paralyzed by imposter syndrome to pursue it."
And what's amazing after you read it is you say basically, "That was me." And you basically make this statement, which I love, saying is you don't want to be common. You want to lead an uncommon life. And you get to several categories. So talk about, and this is really another way of looking at your whole life's work in a sense, talk about why you don't want to lead that common life. You could have led a common life based on the family business and all that. That would have been Coopers & Lybrand. So talk about what a common life is and why you do not want to lead a common life.
Mark Divine:
Well, first of all, it's not meant to be a judgment, right? Because most people live a common life. What I'm trying to do is distinguish between taking radical responsibility for living the life that you're meant to live. And as I mentioned earlier, our culture does not... And I have Western culture, so Australia, America, probably Europe, structurally, governmental society, systems, and you were part of the media, you know this, it wouldn't be very profitable if everyone was running around free, not needing anybody or anything, not needing any government to control them, not being susceptible to any marketing or subliminal programming or political manipulation. Because ultimately, common is the normal human condition, just living your life.
But that's suffering. I mean, Buddhism tells us that living just the everyday reality and taking it to be real, what they call the dream state, taking it to be real, is the root of suffering. So in that regard, everyone living a common life is living a life of quiet desperation, but they're masking it over and they're drowning with entertainment and constant distraction. But at a deep level, there's this fear and anxiety because they're trying to prop up this ego that says that I am important. I'm special. And yet they're not feeling it. They're not feeling worthy. There's so much shame baked into our culture and that needs to be worked through.
So the first kind of phase of waking up to your uncommonness is to recognize that if you're not training your mind, the world's training it for you, someone's training you for you. And the results will speak for yourself. From the moment you open your eyes as a baby, your mind is being trained and conditioned and formed and shaped, just like molding a piece of clay. But you don't have any agency in that. But you do as an adult, but people they don't claim that agency. They continue to let the mind be conditioned by everything around them. And they get so encrusted or reified into this identity of theirs that they can't see beyond it. And that's common.
So the idea of being uncommon is to wake up from that reality and say, "Screw that. I am going to take charge of gaining clarity on who I am and what I'm supposed to do about it on this plane and to be free." Right? The human spirit craves freedom. It's a constant movement toward freedom inwardly, while outwardly, we constantly move toward further entrapping ourselves. But we are the prison guards of our own prison. And the key is through our mind. So we have to start by training your mind. And in the book, I break it into five sections and I call them the five mountains. These are the five human experience domains that we need to train and then reintegrate to bring them all together into one experience, physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual. And I use the term Kokoro, which means heart, mind, merged into actions.
And the reason I start with physical mountain is that my experience is the body and the mind are not two separate things. It's one thing, right? And so if you try to train your mind without bringing your body into the equation, like they do in the martial arts or traditional yoga, then you're cutting yourself off, you're going to have a disembodied mental development, which is more likely to be enhancing your egoic structures rather than breaking them down. So we've got to get the body really healthy and move the body and develop the ability to control our arousal response to get out of this hyper aroused state of fight or flight that we're all kind of trapped in so that your embodied mind is capable of now going deeper into the inner work through the meditative processes.
And then as we go through the meditative processes and we begin to separate from our thoughts and emotions, we begin to see the patterns that have been driving our reactive behavior, and we begin to objectify those patterns and work on them. We call that emotional development. And a lot of those patterns are trauma informed, meaning that they come from a very young age, or even multi-generational, like alcoholism and the rage of my father's side of the family. So now we're working on the physical, mental, and emotional to try to really, really sharpen our mind, open our mind, use our whole mind to include heart and belly mind. You have neurons, your heart is a brain and your gut is a brain, your entire body, entire nervous system, is part of your brain system. So you bring that online through these training methodologies.
Then it's like opening the aperture on a camera. You begin to perceive more. You stop identifying with the objective so much because the subjective experience becomes richer and richer for you. And your identity shifts from, "I am this body named Mark who has this degree and that degree and was a Navy SEAL," to, "I am, period." Non-personal, total pure subjectivity, "I am." That's what the eye is. But also nested within that bigger eye, that witnessing eye, is this idea that Mark came about and has this mission and is going to fulfill this mission, and so we're going to take care of the body. We're not going to leave it behind in our spiritual or whatever you want to call this awakening journey. We're going to actually bring it along with us and we're going to reenter the world as an uncommon being who's fully awake, fully aware, fully embodied.
And the experience is one of great care and concern for all beings, world-centric care and concern, compassion, open mind, open-heartedness, great clarity around why you're here and what you're meant to do about it. And fear begins to just slip away. Fear and anxiety slip away. So you end up being much calmer. I'm not saying you don't experience all the emotions. Of course you do, but you don't get convinced by them. You don't get caught up in them.
Warwick Fairfax:
I really find this sort of fascinating is that it almost to me, and I'd love you to hear your thoughts, is the ultimate SEAL journey is the journey within. That is the hardest, toughest, it's a lifelong journey. It's easy to tap out at any one point, right? "I've had enough. I'm giving up."
Mark Divine:
Yeah, you're right. I think a lot of people do tap out because I remember in going to a retreat once and the instructor is like, "Yeah, the mind's a dangerous place to go. Don't go in there alone." A lot of people are a little afraid of going in there and seeing what they're going to find because they're going to unroot some unpleasant things and they know that. I went to a seven day kind of emotional development retreat, they took your phone and you had no distractions. They didn't even want you to work out because they didn't want you to stir up all your patterns all the time from distraction, of hiding. And it was pretty extraordinary. But I remember being nervous like, "Do I really want to do this? I'm going to discover who I really am at an inner emotional level. I mean, that's going to be ugly." But it's necessary work, right? And men have trouble with that because they think, "Well, emotions are soft underbelly. We don't go there."
But I think in this world that we're heading into this VUCA world with AI and who knows what's coming even in the next five years, I think the most important thing for all of us, leaders, whether you think you're a leader or not, first of all, everyone's a leader because you have to lead yourself, the most important skill to develop is the ability to sit in silence and to tap into your intuition and in your intuition also lies your creativity. It's an inside game. Creativity and intuition is an inside game. And we don't know if AI will have intuition, but right now it's looking like AI can take everything that their left brain cognitive functions used to do okay and do it better. So what are you going to be left with? Like what's the most human part of you? That beingness that you talked about instead of the doing this. If the doingness is handled by a robot or AI, unless you go into some trade, which is more and more common, the most important work for you is to figure out who are you really? And to bring your gift into the world.
Like you said, I 100% agree with you, Warwick, that everyone has a unique kind of genetic/soul blueprint. There's not a single human that is the same. You might have some twins who look the same, but we know they're all radically different. And part of that is karmic, rebirth energy. Part of that is probably all the conditioning and the actual genetic makeup and DNA. But then there's the part which is actually being driven by that inner voice, that silent inner voice. But if you don't slow down and still yourself to be able to hear that and you crowd it out, then you're going to be much more susceptible to all that imprinting and training and pressure from the outside in the form of friends, family, social media, whatnot, just pulling you in all sorts of directions that aren't good for you.
Warwick Fairfax:
What you're saying is so profound, is that you've got to quiet all the negative voices, whether it's internal or external, because until you do that, you can't hear those whispers. I think in the Old Testament talks about the still small voice of God, that quiet whisper. With all the yelling, you're going to miss it, but you've got to quiet all those voices to be able to hear that eternal whisper that kind of points you forward. And yes, one of the things you're talking about, which I think is so true, certainly as men you're taught to not be vulnerable, vulnerable is weakness, but when you can find friends who you can be vulnerable with and they still like you and says, "Well, okay, I did dumb stuff and I've made mistakes and you're loved unconditionally for who you are," that is sort of a game changer when you find your tribe, you find your team, maybe in your case, your sort of boat crew, in a sense. And I've certainly found that helpful.
But it's hard because again, from my faith perspective, we talk about this dark and light, and most religious traditions talk about that. So like one example for me is, I was privileged to go to Harvard Business School where I'm thinking after my spectacular failure, I can't go to reunion. They'll laugh at me. "Oh yeah, Warwick Fairfax, the guy who blew his upbringing and $2 billion failure," and I just thought that was going to happen, that was the truth, the lies I was hearing. So eventually, a number of years later, I went to a reunion and they weren't like that at all.
Mark Divine:
Of course.
Warwick Fairfax:
Then about five, 10 years ago, I forget how long it was, a friend of mine said, "Hey, Warwick, we've got a number of people in your graduating class of '87. They're going to be talking about some of the challenges and resilience. We'd like you to do five, seven minute talk." And I mentioned that and people couldn't have been more affirming. These are people at the time that sort of maybe late 50s, early 60s, they're either retired or at the pinnacle of their professional careers, CEOs, very successful people, and yet there was acceptance, not judgment. And had all sorts of different cross-sections, probably different beliefs. But from my perspective, the enemy, the lies say, "Oh, you will be rejected if you're vulnerable." And sometimes you will be, but not as often as we think.
So to me, one of the keys I love to hear your thoughts is as you're trying to do this internal voyage of discovery, I'm a great believer that therapy can absolutely be helpful, but you also want to find what we call a team of fellow travelers, people that will be in there with you, that they know you, and they accept you for who you are. Does that make sense? What's your experience?
Mark Divine:
I 100% agree. It's very difficult to do emotional growth alone because it's all about relational. Of course, the first relationship is with yourself. So the deepest work is on your own worthiness. To root out the fears and anxieties that you weren't good enough or worthy or loved. And these happen at a very young age, before object permanence even is developed in the brain. Your mom leaving the room and maybe have an argument with her husband, I mean, that's like death to a child and they take it 100% personally. First of all, the mother isn't in the other room. The mother just disappears because they don't have object permanence. They don't know if she's permanent. So then if she reappears later, that's great for the kid, but for a while she's gone. Might as well be dead. And then to have the trauma of them arguing, right? The kid doesn't have the faculties to say, "Well, it's not my fault. It's not me."
Anyway, so there's not a single human that doesn't grow up with trauma. And it's like my first litmus test when I work with the climate is if they say, "Yeah, I had a perfect childhood." And I'm like, "Mm-hmm. We got a lot of work to do here." These fears and anxieties come with us, and so we got to work on that first. But boy, it's like magnified 10 times over if you can do that in a trusted environment with a small group, not a large group, but a small group of committed fellow journey people. We call that a community of practice. And I find that men tend to work really well in men's groups because there's some things they don't think they can really share fully and openly with women around. But it doesn't have to be. It can be mixed groups that works well too.
And I see more and more of these coming. In fact, I'm part of one that's out of Canada called Longship, which is bringing people together in small teams, very similar to what we did at BUD/S and with the SEALs, like a small team, eight people, probably a good number, and you meet once a month and you have a system and protocol and rules for discussing these really hard things that are going on in our lives and it's a safe place. And what's said there stays there. And I think that's an extremely powerful way to really develop emotional awareness and do some trauma healing. Of course, if you can support that with effective therapy, if you could find a really good therapist, that's also really important. I call it emotional coaching. I asked my clients, these guys that are written, said, "You have no problem getting a fitness coach or a nutritional coach or an executive coach. Why don't you get an emotional coach?" And of course they're like, "Because that would mean I'm broken." I said, "No, no, you're not broken. You're human."
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things we say a lot at Beyond the Crucible is we believe in leading a life of significance, which we define as a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So it's our perspective. I think most major religions would agree with this is that just a hedonistic, "It's all about me and life and success and money and power," I don't know any major religion that believes that will lead toward spirituality, will lead to happiness, long-term fulfillment because humans aren't designed that way. You may not like how we were designed, but it is what it is. You can't alter our fundamental spiritual DNA. We yearn to have a purpose beyond ourselves that somehow helps others and joy and fulfillment come from there. So talk a bit about that, because I imagine you probably dwell on those areas too about life's purpose.
Mark Divine:
Sure. Big time. What's coming up for me is a lot of folks I've worked with are stuck in this idea of legacy, right? And I heard that a little bit with some of your earlier thinking about the family dynasty and whatnot. And the problem with legacy is you're putting your worth on something external objective that you have created or grown or that you're proud of and you're going to get the name on the medical school or the whatever, and people are going to remember you. Well, they won't. They'll know there's a name, but it won't be about you. So all of that serves to strengthen the egoic structure, strengthen your ego.
Whereas service, the idea of your purpose is in service in a unique way, right? And you can use the Ikigai model to help you like, "Okay, what are my most powerful skills? What am I good at? What am I not good at? What do I love? What do I hate? What does the world need?" And then you can begin to zero in on how you can serve. But again, the most important part is not what you do, but who you are.
So I like to use the idea of archetypes. So when I was meditating in the 20s with Nakamura, I didn't have this sense that I was meant to be a Navy SEAL when I was sitting on the meditation bench. That's doing. I had the sense that I was a warrior. That's being. And so the warrior became my dominant archetype, and it's not dominant anymore, but it's still there. It's a close second or third. So everyone's got a couple dominant archetypes. It's really helpful to discern, to uncover those. You can use the Yungian archetypes as an example, or the Enneagram, just online take an Enneagram test and you can find, oh, you're a joker or you're a warrior or you're an alchemist or whatever, a sage. Great. That's a pointer for you. That's how you're supposed to serve. Find something within that energy to allow you to serve and then get your ego out of it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, that sounds you heard folks is the captain has turned on the fast and seatbelt sign indicating we've begun our dissent to land the plane on this conversation. Before we do that though, I would be remiss, Mark, if I did not give you the chance to let listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you and the services you offer through the worldwide web.
Mark Divine:
Thanks so much. Appreciate that. My website is markdivine.com. So you can find pretty much all my training and books and everything there. The podcast is now called The Mark Divine Show. I might change it back to Unbeatable Mind. And I do a lot of great interviews, but mostly I'm starting to do more teaching, just me like teaching one directional. The program, Unbeatable Mind, we work with organizations and corporations and we have some phenomenal tribe and community. Information for that is at unbeatablemind.com. And thanks for letting me share and having the conversation here today. It's been awesome.
Gary Schneeberger:
We're almost done. Warwick always has the right of last question or two. So Warwick, I will flip it back to you to truly land the plane on our conversation today.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, again, Mark, thank you for being here and just what a wonderful conversation. There might be somebody here today that maybe they might feel like today is their worst day. They're thinking of maybe tapping out in one way or the other, even if it's just like, "I'm just going to hide under the covers and just give up on life. I'm just going to wile away the next few decades." What would a word of hope be for somebody that might feel like today is maybe their worst day?
Mark Divine:
Well, metaphor, imagine that you lived in a country, maybe like England where it was cloudy all the time and you lived at the base of a mountain, it's always cloudy, always raining, always depressing. And that's what your life feels like right now. But one day you get inspired to climb that mountain and you climb up and all of a sudden you break through the clouds, you're like, "Holy shit, the sun up here. This has always been here. I've just never seen it because I didn't climb high enough." So recognize that the sun is always there, right?
Your witness, your awareness, your relationship with God, whatever, however you want to talk about it is always there. And the part of you that is feeling like shit is the ego. And they both exist side by side or one nested within the other. So to turn toward the witness and the way to do that is to just sit quietly. And in that immediacy of that moment of being sitting there quietly, you can get the sense that everything is okay and you're having a moment. So don't fight the moment, just let the moment be. Don't mess with it. Just know that you are not that. You are way more than that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word's been spoken on the subject and our guest today, Mark Divine, has indeed spoken it. And he's spoken it the way he's spoken pretty much everything in this episode, with a real catchy calm, I'll call it. It's hard to listen to him talk without feeling like, "Huh."
Well, Warwick, we just had a really interesting conversation with our guest, Mark Divine, and there's a whole lot of stuff that we could pull from that were takeaways. Let's try to pull it down to what's the one takeaway that you hope listeners and viewers get from our conversation with Mark?
Warwick Fairfax:
Mark was a fascinating person, grows up in a small town in upstate New York and has a pretty challenging upbringing. There was some alcoholism and some different things in his family. And he also grew up in a family business background. I think it was generational, like me in a sense. Listeners, I also grew up in a generational family business in Australia. And he was on track to be a CPA, MBA at Coopers & Lybrand, that's a big accounting firm. So his life changes when he walks past this dojo, this martial arts place where he learns meditation. He does this inner journey that he ends up becoming a Navy SEAL and top of his class, number one out of 185 candidates, and now has this whole business movement with SEALFIT, Unbeatable Mind. He's written many books, including his most recent book, Uncommon: Simple Practices for an Extraordinary Life.
And to me, the one takeaway is being a SEAL and graduating through BUD/S is tough, but the toughest journey for him was the inner journey, not the external journey. So he spent his life really understanding who he is, what his passions are, his gifting. It's incredible. He talks in his book Uncommon about themes that we talk about. It's sort of a Japanese construct called the Ikigai chart. Basically it looks at what do you love? What are you good at? What does the world need? And obviously what will they pay for? And the center of all of that. And we talk about that in similar fashion. What is your gifting? We're all inherently wired by God a certain way. What is your passions and beliefs? What do you love to do? How will this serve the world and lead to a life of significance and life on purpose dedicated to serving others?
So we talk about a lot of the same things, maybe in different language, but there's commonality. So I think one of the things that Mark is saying is, you first got to quiet the mind and the soul, just calm your spirit, calm the external voices, the internal voices that are not helpful to begin to hear your own soul, your own spirit about what is it that you want to do. If he hadn't done the soul work, I think he wouldn't have been at a point where walking past that Navy recruiting center that he didn't say, "You know what? This whole warrior motif really seems to be me. And I feel like this is the next step." I'm not sure he knew where that was going to lead precisely. I don't know that he even knew it was going to lead to being a Navy SEAL. Still less all the books that he's written and the work that he's done, which is incredible.
But it's really one of the things he really gets at is just the journey within is the ultimate journey. And we talk about this too, the journey of becoming, not just the external climbing up the ladder. It's like it's sort of meaningless because it doesn't lead to joy and fulfillment. It's that journey within to discover, "What is my purpose? Who am I? Who do I want to be?" He was fortunate to discover that in his 20s, or at least begin on the journey. I, with the family of business, failed when I was in my late 20s and age 30. It took me a few years to begin the journey, but I've also been on that journey for quite a lot of years now. And really, that is the key journey of life. It's the journey within. It's a journey to become, from my perspective, who God intended you to be. It's not the external climb, the corporate ladder. It's not wrong, but the greatest journey, the greatest challenge, the ultimate challenge is the journey within.
That's what Mark Divine has spent a lifetime in, teaching and training others to calm their spirits and to really get in touch with, from my perspective, their divine purpose. Because it's in doing that that your heart begins to sing. It's in doing that, that your life goes from a Thoreau-like world of quiet desperation, a black and white world to a life of full color, living color, if you will, where it doesn't mean you don't have challenges, but you're excited about life, you feel like you're making a difference and then you feel like life has purpose. And yes, you'll have moments of exasperation.
But yet overall, there's a sense of just calmness and a sense of, "I know who I am, I know why I'm here, at least in some sense, and I'm grateful for the journey that I'm on." And you're just living every day with some degree of joy and fulfillment. It doesn't mean there aren't speed bumps. But there's this sense of overall tranquility, even when there are speed bumps that, "I have some idea of why I'm here and I'm using the gifting that I have for a higher purpose." So there's definitely, I felt like there was some commonality between Mark's thinking and writing and what we do here. So it was a fascinating conversation.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And he was one of the most soft-spoken, quiet, calm people we've ever interviewed. In fact, when we're on this side and recording, if we're talking like right now, the box around me is lit up because I'm talking, his box went unlit up so many times. He would speak and then he'd stop. He'd think, his light would go off. I mean, he was just so calm. He really exudes that. I mean, you talked about not wanting a life of quiet desperation. Mark Divine's living a life of quiet erudition. I mean, he really is quietly helping people significantly. And I think that is admirable.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. A frenzied, panic filled spirit is not a good one. A good spirit is one of calmness and joy and a sense of, "I know who I am and I'm doing what I feel called to do." That provides a tranquility of soul and who doesn't want that kind of tranquil soul where there's almost a calm joy. And Mark Divine has it.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, there we go. We know your crucible experiences, folks, are tough. They can be world rattlers. But we also know this, and Mark talked about it in his life, Warwick's talked about it many times on the show, they're not the end of your story. Your crucibles are not the end of the story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles and you apply them as you move forward, it can lead you down the path to the greatest destination you could ever reach, and that destination is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
To Move Beyond Your Crucible, Step on the Gas
Eyes forward, not backward. That’s the key if you want to turn your worst day into your greatest opportunity, we discuss in this episode based on Warwick’s latest blog, Don’t Be Afraid to Hit The Gas to Move Beyond Your Crucible.
We discuss nine steps you can take to move with enough speed to glide over life’s bumpy waves rather than be capsized by them. You’ll want to pay special attention to the three in the middle, which in our discussion we shorthand into Think It. Plan It. And Do It. What is it?
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Mark Divine:
Everyone who shows up is physically prepared or else they wouldn't be there. And they're cognitively prepared. Their IQ, they passed a battery of tests and everything. But it's mental and emotional resiliency and your capacity to be an exceptional teammate that will determine whether you get through. Those are tough to measure, right? They're tough to measure. And they can only be exposed in the crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Mark Divine, discussing what his Navy SEAL training taught him about unlocking human potential through integrated training and mental toughness, leadership, and physical readiness. It's led him to create the Unbeatable Mind System, a framework that integrates physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual development that he now teaches to clients that include the next generation of SEALs.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Mark, it's wonderful to have you here on the podcast. Really appreciate you being on. And just before we get started, I want to read a brief bio, which is, I got to say, very impressive. Dr. Mark Divine, PhD, is a retired Navy SEAL commander, New York Times bestselling author, founder and CEO of SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mind, founder of Multiple Million Dollar Businesses, lifetime martial artist, ashtanga yoga teacher, and host of The Unbeatable Mind Podcast, which was recently rated a number one health podcast, and number 30 overall on iTunes, which is truly impressive.
And just to give folks some background, Mark has written a number of incredible books. We're going to talk a bit about his latest book Uncommon: Simple Practices for an Extraordinary Life, but there are others. And these are incredible titles, Unbeatable Mind: Forge Resiliency and Metal Toughness to Succeed in Elite Level, The Way of the SEAL: Think Like an Elite Warrior to Lead and Succeed. I love this title, Staring Down the Wolf: 7 Leadership Commitments that Forge Elite Teams. I mean, that is... What a title. 8 Weeks to SEALFIT: A Navy SEAL's Guide to Unconventional Training for Physical and Mental Toughness. And Kokoro Yoga: Maximize Your Human Potential to Develop the Spirit of a Warrior.
So I mean, every one of these titles are amazing. We'll get to Uncommon here in a bit. But tell us, Mark, a bit about your backstory. From what I understand, you grew up in a very small town in upstate New York, and your path was going on a certain trajectory, I think, from where you grew up. So talk about what was life like for young Mark and where was your life headed? What was the trajectory that was sort of, I don't know about mapped out for you, but kind of there was a trajectory in place perhaps.
Mark Divine:
Yeah. First, Warwick, thanks for having me on this show. I really appreciate it. It's great to meet you. I'll try to do the condensed version of this story. I can tell it in 45 minutes or five minutes. We'll try the five minute version. Yeah, so upstate New York, Barneveld, 375 people. And that was a little isolating, you might say. But there's a lot of good there too. Just beautiful surroundings, so I got to spend a lot of time outside. And this is pre-internet, pre-cell phones, as you know, we grew up and we had to be creative. And that was good for me because inside the home was a little bit turbulent. My father was pretty much a raging alcoholic and abusive. And my mom, the classic codependent, and I love them to death and forgive them for everything, but it really shut me down.
So I found a lot of solace being out in nature. And that played into me being an endurance athlete because I used to run like a billy goat up and down the Adirondack Mountains. And that was how I found a little bit of peace. Well, I became a pretty good competitive swimmer and I was academically... When that happens, when you grow up in traumatic situations, obviously, then you seek validation externally. So I of course did that as an overachiever. And that was good because that led me to a good university, Colgate University. I was recruited to swim competitively there.
So I did that routine, never once questioning who Mark really is, right? We didn't have that in our cultures, right? Maybe today we do, but you and I growing up, we didn't have mechanisms to question things very well. You just followed the song that was playing in the background. Well, the song that was playing in my background was my... We're a business family. Divines had a business that's over 100 years old, one of the legacy family businesses that survived World War I and World War II, and the boys went back and ran the family business. Well, because I was smart and went to Colgate, I thought, "Well, at least I can try something else en route to that, maybe put some money in the bank." And I followed some of my friends down to New York, got a job with Coopers & Lybrand, which is now Pricewaterhouse, PWC. And it was a program where they sent us to NYU to get our MBA, or MS in accounting, but then I got my MBA.
So I was off to the races, going to climb the corporate ladder, had a great job, was going to be an NBA CPA and all that. Well, what changed for me, the inflection point for me was I got into a martial arts program. I was looking for something additional that was more than sports to help me grow, to help me open up, to help me figure out what the hell was going on. And I had some experience from a college roommate where I watched him evolve through a martial art. I said, "Huh, there's something there." Well, when the student's ready, the teacher or the teachers will appear. And I walked into this studio called World Seido Headquarters. Seido means the Art of Sincerity.
And the grand master was a Japanese man who was very famous in Japan and he was unique. He was my first true mentor, even a father figure. And what was really unique about him was he was the full money, right? He was an integrated human being, body, mind, soul. And he acted and presented completely different than any other human being I'd ever come across in my life. And I was just absolutely floored and I wanted to taste that. And I found out that he led a Zen class. So not only was he the founder of this martial arts school, had all these incredible powers, I could tell you stories about some of the things I saw him do that you would not believe, right? Not believe. But that, again, inspired me. It showed me that the human being was capable of so much more than we'd been led to believe.
Anyways, I found out about the Zen class and here he is, he's a Zen master masquerading as a karate instructor, and he let me into the Zen class. So at the right page of 21, I started meditation and I never stopped because I found it... Partly because I trusted him so much and I had that container where if I just do what he says, I really believe that it's going to work. And that's really important to have a teacher who has a credible path, Zen being a credible path, for mental and emotional development. And that's what happened, but it happened at a very rapid pace because I was training so hard and so committed. It completely cracked my mind wide open, back to your origin story question, to where suddenly I had these experiences, right?
At first, I was able to settle my mind and focus and concentrate. And then I had this experience of distancing where I became the observer of my thoughts and emotions instead of thinking I am my thoughts and emotions. And that's when I could see that the story that I had been spoonfed growing up in this family and in this culture and everything wasn't my story. It was a story. So for the first time in my life, I started to ask questions, and that led to the dangerous question, "Who am I really?" And that completely changed my life.
Warwick Fairfax:
That was a game changer. And talk a bit about that because you would obviously know this very well, but we often think of the outward journey, but in some senses, the scarier, more important journey is the journey within, who are we? Why are we here?
Mark Divine:
Yeah, it's the most important journey. And the sooner you can get to that, then the sooner you can transform your life. Transformation does not come from the outside, right? That's the world duality of creation and that's where you're supposed to express your inner creativity. But if you're blocked from it, then you're going to be expressing it in ways that'll ultimately trap you. And that's what would have happened with me. So Nakamura taught me how to just slow down and be comfortable sitting in stillness. And it's in stillness that your creative expression and how you're supposed to be in the world is revealed to you. So how that worked for me is once I... You have to be very patient when you start with meditation. There's a lot of people don't succeed because they think it's going to be like I go to the gym and if I work out for three months, I'm going to lose some weight and see some six pack abs. Well, maybe three, maybe six months, maybe a year, and you will.
But with meditation, you don't have objective measures of progress, right? They're subjective. And we're not even taught to know what to look for. What I experienced was this growing sense of ability to just sit there with my thoughts. And at first at a distance where they weren't disturbing me, I didn't need to grab onto them and ride them and create some drama. But even then in abeyance where there was no thinking, but I was completely present and I used the term witnessing, which I later learned was a pretty common term for that experience. And it was in the witnessing moments where I kept getting this sensation bubbling up, and I would say bubbling up from my heart region, that I was a warrior and I was meant to be a warrior.
So I started to have a midlife crisis at 22 years old because I'm like, "How the heck am I supposed to be a warrior if I'm a CPA? That doesn't seem..." I'm not saying there aren't warrior CPAs out there. There probably are, but it didn't seem like the way I was supposed to be a warrior. So then I turned my question around to that. It's like, "If I'm supposed to be a warrior, then how?" And mind you, I wasn't thinking military, right? My father had a very distasteful experience with the military and so he kind of passed that down to me, like military is for people who can't get a real job, for low lives. And he was actually told by a judge, "Because you drove your car into the fraternity house drunk, you can either A, go to jail or B, join the army." He goes, "B, I'll choose B." So he didn't have a great experience with the military.
At any rate, so synchronicity happens when you are asking the right questions and you're not blocking the answers and you're starting to entertain them. So I'm entertaining this idea that I'm a warrior. "How am I supposed to be a warrior?" And then I'm walking home from work in reverie one day pondering this idea and I literally stumble across the Navy recruiting station and there's a poster there and the top of the poster said, "Be someone special." Now that caught my attention because I didn't feel very special based upon how I grew up. But it had Navy SEALs doing really cool shit. And it didn't say anything about the SEALs. It was just a bait and switch poster for the recruiters. But I looked at that, said, "Whoever they are, that's how I'm supposed to be a warrior."
Then long story short, all sorts of cool things happened with me practicing different things like visualization. I ended up getting one of two slots from the civilian world to go to Officer Candidate School to get commissioned and with a direct route to BUD/S, basic underwater demolition SEAL training after that. And so I left New York behind in 1989 with my MBA, my CPA, my first degree black belt in karate, and $100,000 job in 1989, I walked away from it all to be a Navy SEAL. I went through Navy SEAL training in 1990 and completely changed my life. And I guess I feel very fortunate to have discovered my path at such a young age. And it's one of the things I'm very passionate about helping others try to uncover and discover and get aligned because it is the most important thing in your life, I think.
Warwick Fairfax:
So can you imagine an alternate universe, your roommate didn't talk to you about meditation and that dojo that you walked past. And I think of that quote by Thoreau when he talks about people living lives of quiet desperation, that could have been you.
Mark Divine:
That could have been me.
Warwick Fairfax:
Gone back to upstate New York and work for decades in the family of business thinking, "Is this all there is?" I mean, you ever think about that could have been you?
Mark Divine:
Right. And I would have been a fraction of the man that I am today and the whole thing would have been a crucible, right? Because I would have been misaligned and yet not having any understanding of what was wrong, right? So that's where that anxiety builds over years and years and people turn to alcohol, and I would have turned to alcohol because that was the go to for my family. I'm not sure I'd be around today. That's how important it is.
If you don't align with your truth, and that is that underlying overarching reason that you incarnated, which is going to then expose the lessons you're meant to learn as an evolutionary being, then you're just going to have bigger and bigger challenges because the universe is going to try to right you, try to steer the back. And the further off course you get, the more and more challenging it gets, right? This is why people have major breakdowns and life and death accidents and cancer and all that. So the sooner that you can do the inner work, like you said, then the better off you're going to be because you can get on the right track.
Warwick Fairfax:
You have sort of an amazing, amazing journey, that journey of self-discovery and just turning your back. I'm sure at the time you probably had friends and family saying, "You're doing what? You were influenced by who? And you're going to go in the, say it ain't so, military? You're selling out everything we as a family believe in."
Mark Divine:
Yeah. Everything, right? I was throwing everything away. I was walking away from the family, turning my back in the family. My dad sent me a letter and said, "Get the rocks out of your head." All right. So I just had to stay the path and know that eventually they would see, and they did. And they actually came to my graduation. I graduated number one in my class. That's kind of the part of the story of what led me to what I do today is like, I learned so much from Nakamura over those four years and I wanted to continue that. So I continued using the skills, right? Every day, meditation, breath work, the visualization that I first learned from my college swim coach, who was a real pioneer in sports psychology. And I started to teach them to my small team during SEAL training, because you have what's called a boat crew. So I had six other guys with me.
We formed up right before Hell Week when things started to shake out and like 40 people had already quit the class out of 180. And then we went through Hell Week and we were so locked on because I began to teach them these skills that we became indomitable. And we actually secured Hell Week early by six hours and got nice and dry, and we watched the class get hammered for an extra six hours. And then all six of us, seven of us sailed through training. And the end of training, nine months, there were only 19 of us left of the 180 and seven of them were me and my team. So that had such a profound impact on me like, "Okay, I think I want to continue to develop these ideas and then made me someday teach them." And that's exactly what I did.
So when I got off active duty in 1997 or so, I started a company called NavySeals.com. I actually started two companies, right? I was an overachiever. I started the Coronado Brewing Company, which it's a pretty good size microbrewery now. And I got out of that about five years later because my partners were my brothers-in-laws and that didn't go so well, as you can imagine. But I started NavySeals.com and through that, I bought that domain for like $35.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh my gosh.
Mark Divine:
I know. Thinking-
Gary Schneeberger:
That's crazy.
Mark Divine:
... if someone's going to do this, but it should probably be a SEAL. That was my naive thinking. The Navy later on didn't love that I owned it, but they often didn't offer to buy it from me either. They tried to take it from me. I said, "No, that's not how this is going to work." Anyways, so with that platform, I was selling gear, so we had e-commerce. And then I had forums back in the early days of the internet, remember forums? So we had all these training forums and I was giving guidance to include everything I'd learned from Nakamura, nutrition, health, training. And that led to me getting hired by the Navy to mentor Navy SEALs nationwide on a government contract.
Now, this is another one of my crucibles where I had that contract for a year and we just absolutely performed brilliantly. We took the pass rate on the screening test from 30% up to over 87%. We helped improve the quality of the recruit SEALs coming into SEAL training, which over time improved the throughput because we were trying to get more SEALs into the force. But the contract got literally stolen right out from under me by Blackwater USA. You've probably heard of that company.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Mark Divine:
Yeah. They were the yeehaws running around Iraq, killing innocent-
Gary Schneeberger:
Erik Prince.
Mark Divine:
Right, Erik Prince.
Gary Schneeberger:
Erik Prince the owner.
Mark Divine:
He wanted that contract so badly for the PR value because it was a very high profile mentoring Navy SEAL candidates. Anyways, took a $10 million contract, ripped it right out for me. And everyone's saying, "Mark, you got to fight that. That was fraud." And it was. And I said, "No, I'm not going to fight that." I went back to the meditation bench and started asking those questions again. And the answer that came to me is, "You know what? You don't want one client in the US government telling you what you can't do," because they were telling me I can't do the inner domain stuff, "You can't teach these kids visualization, breath work, meditation. You can't do that because we don't have any evidence that it works. What we want you to do is just take them to the pool and beat the shit out of them, make them tough." And we could do that too, but that was not the whole package.
So I decided to launch a business that really kind of sprung out of NavySeals.com and I called it SEALFIT. And I launched a program where these students could come live with me for 30 days at a really cool training center I developed in Encinitas, California that looked like a mini BUD/S compound, mini Navy SEAL training. We trained every morning, every day from like 5:00 AM to 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00, sometimes around the clock every single weekend. We had one day off in 30 days. And that was my Petri dish. And out of that, I developed the 8 Weeks to SEALFIT training regimen, and that book became a New York Times bestseller, and it was used by a lot of the military and law enforcement first responders. And then also the Unbeatable Mind Model, which was all the training of the inner domain. And I wrote a book about that, and then that became a separate company later on. It was an incredibly creative period in my life, and just really extraordinary.
And by the way, I'll end this piece on this, the students that I trained have a 90% success rate getting through Navy SEAL training. It's like upside down from the average Navy SEAL. And they're really... If you get to the front door of BUD/S, you are prepared, right, supposedly. But 90% fail. And the students that I trained, they would get to BUD/S and thrive with a smile on their face and 90% would succeed, which is cool. So the Navy kind of started to take notice and now they're integrating these principles and training into the BUD/S program along with the Air Force and some other special ops programs.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it's amazing what you're saying because one of the things you write about is in your BUD/S class, you mentioned out of 185 candidates, 19 graduated. That's a pretty low percentage, but it may be normal. And as you mentioned, you finished first, but it seems like, as you were saying, I mean, I'm sure everybody that goes in there must be supremely fit athletes, just walking in. So that's a given, otherwise you wouldn't even enter the doorway. But it's that mental toughness. And you give one example of you were at the bottom of the pool and some instructor that I guess was nicknamed Dr. Evil, which I guess kind of says it all, but talk about what you did because a lot of people wouldn't have got out of that dilemma that you're in. But it was your mental toughness that would have enabled you to survive that test.
Mark Divine:
Right. So first off, you're right. Everyone who shows up is physically prepared or else they wouldn't be there. And they're cognitively prepared. Their IQ, they passed a battery of tests and everything. But it's mental and emotional resiliency and your capacity to be an exceptional teammate that will determine whether you get through. Those are tough to measure, right? They're tough to measure. And they can only be exposed in the crucible. BUD/S in itself is a crucible. But then there's many crucibles along the way, Hell Week being the most famous. So Hell Week is six days of nonstop training, around the clock, no sleep.
So give you examples, we had 185. By the time we got the Hell Week, which seven weeks into our training, we had already lost 40, so we're down about 140, 145. And when we got out of Hell Week, we had about 45. And then those 45 whittled down to 19 by the end of the training, which was another five months. Anyways, so this particular incident was another crucible. It's called pool competency, right? So it's designed to test your ability to control your mind and your emotions in one of the most dangerous situations that you can be, which is underwater cut off from an air supply.
So they literally, you go down with a regulator and tanks on your back and it's an old system they use intentionally because it has these two hoses they call it a double hose system. So you get down to the bottom of the deep end of this pool, the combat training tank, which is Navy SEAL speak for pool, and you just kind of hang out, and then suddenly you get attacked, and you get attacked by a Dr. Evil type character, and he literally beats the shit out of you underwater, rips all your gear off, your face mask, your fins, your weight belt, and he rips your tanks off, and then he takes that double hose and he ties into a knot and cuts off all potential for any air. And you just got to wait patiently for him to finish messing with you.
And then when he's done messing with you, a minute or minute and a half into this thing, you've got to find your gear and you got to don your equipment, you got to don it in the right order. And the right order isn't to go for the air first, it's to get your mask on so you can see. And then you go start to work on the tanks, and you try to get this knot undone. And boy, it is not easy, so to speak, to undo a knot underwater when you have all that anxiety of now you're two and a half, three minutes of holding your breath.
So for me, I found it to be much easier than most as a result of the training I had done because my mind was really calm and I had a mantra to maintain that calmness. And I'd been practicing breath work for now five years, so I had a really good lung capacity. And I also could tell when air was really necessary versus just the natural inclination to think, "Oh, I need to breathe." So I was able to hold my breath for a while. But it was the calmness under pressure that was really that made the difference. I literally had to get my foot up there and yank on this regulator. Finally, a little pop of bubble, a couple bubbles came out, a little stream. So instead of keep working, I just put the whole thing in my mouth and let it fill my mouth up and then I swallowed that into my lungs, gave me another 30 seconds.
So those are the types of crucibles that the SEALs would curate for you in a very controlled environment. This is dangerous work, mind you, but they had safety swimmers and people do shallow water blackouts and they'd get them out and they revive them. And I don't think they've had anyone die in that particular evolution. I mean, students have died at BUD/S before because it's extremely dangerous training.
But this is one way, Warwick, that I think that we can talk about crucibles being really beneficial for growth. I have a section in my book, The Way of the Seal, I say, "Bring the challenge to you before it comes to you on its own." So you can do things to curate a safe crucible experience that will give you a tremendous amount of mental, emotional resiliency, a deep awareness and appreciation for what you're really capable of. And as you're enduring the crucible, because you've selected and committed to endure the crucible, you have a growing insight and awareness that question who you really are.
Which is one of the things we did at SEALFIT, we created these 50 hour, 24 hour and 12 hour crucibles, and they were nonstop trainings. So the 50 hour one was world famous because people come from all over the place for it, to get this experience of what is it like to train the hardest training in the world for 50 hours nonstop, no sleep. And the students say there's kind of life before that experience and life after because life after everything that seemed hard is now not hard, right? Things that really used to stress them out, now they have a great distance from and a perspective that that's not a big deal. And that's the benefit of the crucible, right? That's the beyond the crucial. Beyond it, you see, "Oh, it actually was necessary." It was very useful and beneficial, albeit painful, but you have a great sense of gratitude for it.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've just talked, Mark, about just general crucible experiences. The folks who are listening and watching this right now who are not going to go through Navy SEAL training, but how they can apply what you know, what you've learned, what you've practiced. And there's something that you said that I think fits in here for everybody who's listening and viewing. And you said this, "The way you do anything is the way you do everything." How does that apply to average "everyday" crucibles that we go through as it's applied to your own life? You learn that through the experiences you've talked about, but that applies to all of us in our own realms, right?
Mark Divine:
Well, I first heard that in the SEALs, we were fond of saying that, and it was really about paying attention to detail. So if you were someone who didn't really pay attention to their gear and you didn't think it was a big deal because maybe you'd already taped up your gear a couple weeks ago, you didn't need to tape it up for stealthiness this time, or you didn't clean it from yesterday. Well, eventually your gear will fail you. But the reality is, if you're shortchanging your own gear, then where else are you shortchanging your life?
So later on, as I developed an awareness, I took that meaning of the way you do anything is the way you do everything, to be much more about awareness and presence, right? So when you develop greater awareness, which is synonymous with greater presence, then everything, every moment, every interaction, everything you do, you put your full attention to. And because you're giving your full attention, you're giving it everything that you have. And the results that accrue from this are extraordinary because you're not throwing your energy around and thinking you're getting further ahead by multitasking because you're not.
You're not focusing on the wrong things because with growing awareness, you're able to see what's the right thing to focus on. You stop taking on so many commitments because you realize how bogged down and contracted you get when you over commit and you've got too many things, too many resentments that you took this project on or that project or this didn't work or that didn't work. You're not able to let that shit go, because we have claw marks on things that we start and don't want to let go of, to include our businesses or family businesses. So we want to develop this capacity to be very present and discerning with where we put our attention and with the people and the tasks that we take on.
So this is where the warriors principle of simplicity comes in. And I think everyone who's been through a very challenging crucible has It was this experience like, "Wow, life is precious. I don't need to keep on putting points on the board and I don't need to keep on taking on new commitments and distracting myself because everything I have is right here, right now, right in front of me. Everything I need, I mean, is right here right now, right in front of me." And people on their deathbed, they don't go back and say, "I wish I had started more businesses and put more money in the bank." They say is, "I wish I'd spent more time with my family."
Warwick Fairfax:
I want to talk a bit about your latest book, Uncommon. And one of the things I love how you start that book is you have a whole series of statements about what common is. And there's a twist to this after you read it. So you state, "Common is going to business school because dad approves, though your dream is to be a Navy SEAL or become a digital nomad. Common is continuing to eat crappy food because you don't have the time to prepare healthy meals. Common is knowing your relationship isn't going to last but not having the courage to end it. Common is blowing off studying for the kegger, you'll make up the studying the next day. Common is blaming your parents for your less savory qualities rather than taking control of your mind and life to change things for the better. Common is dreaming about becoming an uber successful entrepreneur during your 9:00 to 5:00, yet not taking definitive daily action towards the goal. Common is keeping your mouth shut when you see abuse or injustice because you're afraid to take action. Common is knowing there's an entrepreneur, warrior, artist, teacher, or influencer inside you, that you're too paralyzed by imposter syndrome to pursue it."
And what's amazing after you read it is you say basically, "That was me." And you basically make this statement, which I love, saying is you don't want to be common. You want to lead an uncommon life. And you get to several categories. So talk about, and this is really another way of looking at your whole life's work in a sense, talk about why you don't want to lead that common life. You could have led a common life based on the family business and all that. That would have been Coopers & Lybrand. So talk about what a common life is and why you do not want to lead a common life.
Mark Divine:
Well, first of all, it's not meant to be a judgment, right? Because most people live a common life. What I'm trying to do is distinguish between taking radical responsibility for living the life that you're meant to live. And as I mentioned earlier, our culture does not... And I have Western culture, so Australia, America, probably Europe, structurally, governmental society, systems, and you were part of the media, you know this, it wouldn't be very profitable if everyone was running around free, not needing anybody or anything, not needing any government to control them, not being susceptible to any marketing or subliminal programming or political manipulation. Because ultimately, common is the normal human condition, just living your life.
But that's suffering. I mean, Buddhism tells us that living just the everyday reality and taking it to be real, what they call the dream state, taking it to be real, is the root of suffering. So in that regard, everyone living a common life is living a life of quiet desperation, but they're masking it over and they're drowning with entertainment and constant distraction. But at a deep level, there's this fear and anxiety because they're trying to prop up this ego that says that I am important. I'm special. And yet they're not feeling it. They're not feeling worthy. There's so much shame baked into our culture and that needs to be worked through.
So the first kind of phase of waking up to your uncommonness is to recognize that if you're not training your mind, the world's training it for you, someone's training you for you. And the results will speak for yourself. From the moment you open your eyes as a baby, your mind is being trained and conditioned and formed and shaped, just like molding a piece of clay. But you don't have any agency in that. But you do as an adult, but people they don't claim that agency. They continue to let the mind be conditioned by everything around them. And they get so encrusted or reified into this identity of theirs that they can't see beyond it. And that's common.
So the idea of being uncommon is to wake up from that reality and say, "Screw that. I am going to take charge of gaining clarity on who I am and what I'm supposed to do about it on this plane and to be free." Right? The human spirit craves freedom. It's a constant movement toward freedom inwardly, while outwardly, we constantly move toward further entrapping ourselves. But we are the prison guards of our own prison. And the key is through our mind. So we have to start by training your mind. And in the book, I break it into five sections and I call them the five mountains. These are the five human experience domains that we need to train and then reintegrate to bring them all together into one experience, physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual. And I use the term Kokoro, which means heart, mind, merged into actions.
And the reason I start with physical mountain is that my experience is the body and the mind are not two separate things. It's one thing, right? And so if you try to train your mind without bringing your body into the equation, like they do in the martial arts or traditional yoga, then you're cutting yourself off, you're going to have a disembodied mental development, which is more likely to be enhancing your egoic structures rather than breaking them down. So we've got to get the body really healthy and move the body and develop the ability to control our arousal response to get out of this hyper aroused state of fight or flight that we're all kind of trapped in so that your embodied mind is capable of now going deeper into the inner work through the meditative processes.
And then as we go through the meditative processes and we begin to separate from our thoughts and emotions, we begin to see the patterns that have been driving our reactive behavior, and we begin to objectify those patterns and work on them. We call that emotional development. And a lot of those patterns are trauma informed, meaning that they come from a very young age, or even multi-generational, like alcoholism and the rage of my father's side of the family. So now we're working on the physical, mental, and emotional to try to really, really sharpen our mind, open our mind, use our whole mind to include heart and belly mind. You have neurons, your heart is a brain and your gut is a brain, your entire body, entire nervous system, is part of your brain system. So you bring that online through these training methodologies.
Then it's like opening the aperture on a camera. You begin to perceive more. You stop identifying with the objective so much because the subjective experience becomes richer and richer for you. And your identity shifts from, "I am this body named Mark who has this degree and that degree and was a Navy SEAL," to, "I am, period." Non-personal, total pure subjectivity, "I am." That's what the eye is. But also nested within that bigger eye, that witnessing eye, is this idea that Mark came about and has this mission and is going to fulfill this mission, and so we're going to take care of the body. We're not going to leave it behind in our spiritual or whatever you want to call this awakening journey. We're going to actually bring it along with us and we're going to reenter the world as an uncommon being who's fully awake, fully aware, fully embodied.
And the experience is one of great care and concern for all beings, world-centric care and concern, compassion, open mind, open-heartedness, great clarity around why you're here and what you're meant to do about it. And fear begins to just slip away. Fear and anxiety slip away. So you end up being much calmer. I'm not saying you don't experience all the emotions. Of course you do, but you don't get convinced by them. You don't get caught up in them.
Warwick Fairfax:
I really find this sort of fascinating is that it almost to me, and I'd love you to hear your thoughts, is the ultimate SEAL journey is the journey within. That is the hardest, toughest, it's a lifelong journey. It's easy to tap out at any one point, right? "I've had enough. I'm giving up."
Mark Divine:
Yeah, you're right. I think a lot of people do tap out because I remember in going to a retreat once and the instructor is like, "Yeah, the mind's a dangerous place to go. Don't go in there alone." A lot of people are a little afraid of going in there and seeing what they're going to find because they're going to unroot some unpleasant things and they know that. I went to a seven day kind of emotional development retreat, they took your phone and you had no distractions. They didn't even want you to work out because they didn't want you to stir up all your patterns all the time from distraction, of hiding. And it was pretty extraordinary. But I remember being nervous like, "Do I really want to do this? I'm going to discover who I really am at an inner emotional level. I mean, that's going to be ugly." But it's necessary work, right? And men have trouble with that because they think, "Well, emotions are soft underbelly. We don't go there."
But I think in this world that we're heading into this VUCA world with AI and who knows what's coming even in the next five years, I think the most important thing for all of us, leaders, whether you think you're a leader or not, first of all, everyone's a leader because you have to lead yourself, the most important skill to develop is the ability to sit in silence and to tap into your intuition and in your intuition also lies your creativity. It's an inside game. Creativity and intuition is an inside game. And we don't know if AI will have intuition, but right now it's looking like AI can take everything that their left brain cognitive functions used to do okay and do it better. So what are you going to be left with? Like what's the most human part of you? That beingness that you talked about instead of the doing this. If the doingness is handled by a robot or AI, unless you go into some trade, which is more and more common, the most important work for you is to figure out who are you really? And to bring your gift into the world.
Like you said, I 100% agree with you, Warwick, that everyone has a unique kind of genetic/soul blueprint. There's not a single human that is the same. You might have some twins who look the same, but we know they're all radically different. And part of that is karmic, rebirth energy. Part of that is probably all the conditioning and the actual genetic makeup and DNA. But then there's the part which is actually being driven by that inner voice, that silent inner voice. But if you don't slow down and still yourself to be able to hear that and you crowd it out, then you're going to be much more susceptible to all that imprinting and training and pressure from the outside in the form of friends, family, social media, whatnot, just pulling you in all sorts of directions that aren't good for you.
Warwick Fairfax:
What you're saying is so profound, is that you've got to quiet all the negative voices, whether it's internal or external, because until you do that, you can't hear those whispers. I think in the Old Testament talks about the still small voice of God, that quiet whisper. With all the yelling, you're going to miss it, but you've got to quiet all those voices to be able to hear that eternal whisper that kind of points you forward. And yes, one of the things you're talking about, which I think is so true, certainly as men you're taught to not be vulnerable, vulnerable is weakness, but when you can find friends who you can be vulnerable with and they still like you and says, "Well, okay, I did dumb stuff and I've made mistakes and you're loved unconditionally for who you are," that is sort of a game changer when you find your tribe, you find your team, maybe in your case, your sort of boat crew, in a sense. And I've certainly found that helpful.
But it's hard because again, from my faith perspective, we talk about this dark and light, and most religious traditions talk about that. So like one example for me is, I was privileged to go to Harvard Business School where I'm thinking after my spectacular failure, I can't go to reunion. They'll laugh at me. "Oh yeah, Warwick Fairfax, the guy who blew his upbringing and $2 billion failure," and I just thought that was going to happen, that was the truth, the lies I was hearing. So eventually, a number of years later, I went to a reunion and they weren't like that at all.
Mark Divine:
Of course.
Warwick Fairfax:
Then about five, 10 years ago, I forget how long it was, a friend of mine said, "Hey, Warwick, we've got a number of people in your graduating class of '87. They're going to be talking about some of the challenges and resilience. We'd like you to do five, seven minute talk." And I mentioned that and people couldn't have been more affirming. These are people at the time that sort of maybe late 50s, early 60s, they're either retired or at the pinnacle of their professional careers, CEOs, very successful people, and yet there was acceptance, not judgment. And had all sorts of different cross-sections, probably different beliefs. But from my perspective, the enemy, the lies say, "Oh, you will be rejected if you're vulnerable." And sometimes you will be, but not as often as we think.
So to me, one of the keys I love to hear your thoughts is as you're trying to do this internal voyage of discovery, I'm a great believer that therapy can absolutely be helpful, but you also want to find what we call a team of fellow travelers, people that will be in there with you, that they know you, and they accept you for who you are. Does that make sense? What's your experience?
Mark Divine:
I 100% agree. It's very difficult to do emotional growth alone because it's all about relational. Of course, the first relationship is with yourself. So the deepest work is on your own worthiness. To root out the fears and anxieties that you weren't good enough or worthy or loved. And these happen at a very young age, before object permanence even is developed in the brain. Your mom leaving the room and maybe have an argument with her husband, I mean, that's like death to a child and they take it 100% personally. First of all, the mother isn't in the other room. The mother just disappears because they don't have object permanence. They don't know if she's permanent. So then if she reappears later, that's great for the kid, but for a while she's gone. Might as well be dead. And then to have the trauma of them arguing, right? The kid doesn't have the faculties to say, "Well, it's not my fault. It's not me."
Anyway, so there's not a single human that doesn't grow up with trauma. And it's like my first litmus test when I work with the climate is if they say, "Yeah, I had a perfect childhood." And I'm like, "Mm-hmm. We got a lot of work to do here." These fears and anxieties come with us, and so we got to work on that first. But boy, it's like magnified 10 times over if you can do that in a trusted environment with a small group, not a large group, but a small group of committed fellow journey people. We call that a community of practice. And I find that men tend to work really well in men's groups because there's some things they don't think they can really share fully and openly with women around. But it doesn't have to be. It can be mixed groups that works well too.
And I see more and more of these coming. In fact, I'm part of one that's out of Canada called Longship, which is bringing people together in small teams, very similar to what we did at BUD/S and with the SEALs, like a small team, eight people, probably a good number, and you meet once a month and you have a system and protocol and rules for discussing these really hard things that are going on in our lives and it's a safe place. And what's said there stays there. And I think that's an extremely powerful way to really develop emotional awareness and do some trauma healing. Of course, if you can support that with effective therapy, if you could find a really good therapist, that's also really important. I call it emotional coaching. I asked my clients, these guys that are written, said, "You have no problem getting a fitness coach or a nutritional coach or an executive coach. Why don't you get an emotional coach?" And of course they're like, "Because that would mean I'm broken." I said, "No, no, you're not broken. You're human."
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things we say a lot at Beyond the Crucible is we believe in leading a life of significance, which we define as a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So it's our perspective. I think most major religions would agree with this is that just a hedonistic, "It's all about me and life and success and money and power," I don't know any major religion that believes that will lead toward spirituality, will lead to happiness, long-term fulfillment because humans aren't designed that way. You may not like how we were designed, but it is what it is. You can't alter our fundamental spiritual DNA. We yearn to have a purpose beyond ourselves that somehow helps others and joy and fulfillment come from there. So talk a bit about that, because I imagine you probably dwell on those areas too about life's purpose.
Mark Divine:
Sure. Big time. What's coming up for me is a lot of folks I've worked with are stuck in this idea of legacy, right? And I heard that a little bit with some of your earlier thinking about the family dynasty and whatnot. And the problem with legacy is you're putting your worth on something external objective that you have created or grown or that you're proud of and you're going to get the name on the medical school or the whatever, and people are going to remember you. Well, they won't. They'll know there's a name, but it won't be about you. So all of that serves to strengthen the egoic structure, strengthen your ego.
Whereas service, the idea of your purpose is in service in a unique way, right? And you can use the Ikigai model to help you like, "Okay, what are my most powerful skills? What am I good at? What am I not good at? What do I love? What do I hate? What does the world need?" And then you can begin to zero in on how you can serve. But again, the most important part is not what you do, but who you are.
So I like to use the idea of archetypes. So when I was meditating in the 20s with Nakamura, I didn't have this sense that I was meant to be a Navy SEAL when I was sitting on the meditation bench. That's doing. I had the sense that I was a warrior. That's being. And so the warrior became my dominant archetype, and it's not dominant anymore, but it's still there. It's a close second or third. So everyone's got a couple dominant archetypes. It's really helpful to discern, to uncover those. You can use the Yungian archetypes as an example, or the Enneagram, just online take an Enneagram test and you can find, oh, you're a joker or you're a warrior or you're an alchemist or whatever, a sage. Great. That's a pointer for you. That's how you're supposed to serve. Find something within that energy to allow you to serve and then get your ego out of it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, that sounds you heard folks is the captain has turned on the fast and seatbelt sign indicating we've begun our dissent to land the plane on this conversation. Before we do that though, I would be remiss, Mark, if I did not give you the chance to let listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you and the services you offer through the worldwide web.
Mark Divine:
Thanks so much. Appreciate that. My website is markdivine.com. So you can find pretty much all my training and books and everything there. The podcast is now called The Mark Divine Show. I might change it back to Unbeatable Mind. And I do a lot of great interviews, but mostly I'm starting to do more teaching, just me like teaching one directional. The program, Unbeatable Mind, we work with organizations and corporations and we have some phenomenal tribe and community. Information for that is at unbeatablemind.com. And thanks for letting me share and having the conversation here today. It's been awesome.
Gary Schneeberger:
We're almost done. Warwick always has the right of last question or two. So Warwick, I will flip it back to you to truly land the plane on our conversation today.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, again, Mark, thank you for being here and just what a wonderful conversation. There might be somebody here today that maybe they might feel like today is their worst day. They're thinking of maybe tapping out in one way or the other, even if it's just like, "I'm just going to hide under the covers and just give up on life. I'm just going to wile away the next few decades." What would a word of hope be for somebody that might feel like today is maybe their worst day?
Mark Divine:
Well, metaphor, imagine that you lived in a country, maybe like England where it was cloudy all the time and you lived at the base of a mountain, it's always cloudy, always raining, always depressing. And that's what your life feels like right now. But one day you get inspired to climb that mountain and you climb up and all of a sudden you break through the clouds, you're like, "Holy shit, the sun up here. This has always been here. I've just never seen it because I didn't climb high enough." So recognize that the sun is always there, right?
Your witness, your awareness, your relationship with God, whatever, however you want to talk about it is always there. And the part of you that is feeling like shit is the ego. And they both exist side by side or one nested within the other. So to turn toward the witness and the way to do that is to just sit quietly. And in that immediacy of that moment of being sitting there quietly, you can get the sense that everything is okay and you're having a moment. So don't fight the moment, just let the moment be. Don't mess with it. Just know that you are not that. You are way more than that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word's been spoken on the subject and our guest today, Mark Divine, has indeed spoken it. And he's spoken it the way he's spoken pretty much everything in this episode, with a real catchy calm, I'll call it. It's hard to listen to him talk without feeling like, "Huh."
Well, Warwick, we just had a really interesting conversation with our guest, Mark Divine, and there's a whole lot of stuff that we could pull from that were takeaways. Let's try to pull it down to what's the one takeaway that you hope listeners and viewers get from our conversation with Mark?
Warwick Fairfax:
Mark was a fascinating person, grows up in a small town in upstate New York and has a pretty challenging upbringing. There was some alcoholism and some different things in his family. And he also grew up in a family business background. I think it was generational, like me in a sense. Listeners, I also grew up in a generational family business in Australia. And he was on track to be a CPA, MBA at Coopers & Lybrand, that's a big accounting firm. So his life changes when he walks past this dojo, this martial arts place where he learns meditation. He does this inner journey that he ends up becoming a Navy SEAL and top of his class, number one out of 185 candidates, and now has this whole business movement with SEALFIT, Unbeatable Mind. He's written many books, including his most recent book, Uncommon: Simple Practices for an Extraordinary Life.
And to me, the one takeaway is being a SEAL and graduating through BUD/S is tough, but the toughest journey for him was the inner journey, not the external journey. So he spent his life really understanding who he is, what his passions are, his gifting. It's incredible. He talks in his book Uncommon about themes that we talk about. It's sort of a Japanese construct called the Ikigai chart. Basically it looks at what do you love? What are you good at? What does the world need? And obviously what will they pay for? And the center of all of that. And we talk about that in similar fashion. What is your gifting? We're all inherently wired by God a certain way. What is your passions and beliefs? What do you love to do? How will this serve the world and lead to a life of significance and life on purpose dedicated to serving others?
So we talk about a lot of the same things, maybe in different language, but there's commonality. So I think one of the things that Mark is saying is, you first got to quiet the mind and the soul, just calm your spirit, calm the external voices, the internal voices that are not helpful to begin to hear your own soul, your own spirit about what is it that you want to do. If he hadn't done the soul work, I think he wouldn't have been at a point where walking past that Navy recruiting center that he didn't say, "You know what? This whole warrior motif really seems to be me. And I feel like this is the next step." I'm not sure he knew where that was going to lead precisely. I don't know that he even knew it was going to lead to being a Navy SEAL. Still less all the books that he's written and the work that he's done, which is incredible.
But it's really one of the things he really gets at is just the journey within is the ultimate journey. And we talk about this too, the journey of becoming, not just the external climbing up the ladder. It's like it's sort of meaningless because it doesn't lead to joy and fulfillment. It's that journey within to discover, "What is my purpose? Who am I? Who do I want to be?" He was fortunate to discover that in his 20s, or at least begin on the journey. I, with the family of business, failed when I was in my late 20s and age 30. It took me a few years to begin the journey, but I've also been on that journey for quite a lot of years now. And really, that is the key journey of life. It's the journey within. It's a journey to become, from my perspective, who God intended you to be. It's not the external climb, the corporate ladder. It's not wrong, but the greatest journey, the greatest challenge, the ultimate challenge is the journey within.
That's what Mark Divine has spent a lifetime in, teaching and training others to calm their spirits and to really get in touch with, from my perspective, their divine purpose. Because it's in doing that that your heart begins to sing. It's in doing that, that your life goes from a Thoreau-like world of quiet desperation, a black and white world to a life of full color, living color, if you will, where it doesn't mean you don't have challenges, but you're excited about life, you feel like you're making a difference and then you feel like life has purpose. And yes, you'll have moments of exasperation.
But yet overall, there's a sense of just calmness and a sense of, "I know who I am, I know why I'm here, at least in some sense, and I'm grateful for the journey that I'm on." And you're just living every day with some degree of joy and fulfillment. It doesn't mean there aren't speed bumps. But there's this sense of overall tranquility, even when there are speed bumps that, "I have some idea of why I'm here and I'm using the gifting that I have for a higher purpose." So there's definitely, I felt like there was some commonality between Mark's thinking and writing and what we do here. So it was a fascinating conversation.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And he was one of the most soft-spoken, quiet, calm people we've ever interviewed. In fact, when we're on this side and recording, if we're talking like right now, the box around me is lit up because I'm talking, his box went unlit up so many times. He would speak and then he'd stop. He'd think, his light would go off. I mean, he was just so calm. He really exudes that. I mean, you talked about not wanting a life of quiet desperation. Mark Divine's living a life of quiet erudition. I mean, he really is quietly helping people significantly. And I think that is admirable.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. A frenzied, panic filled spirit is not a good one. A good spirit is one of calmness and joy and a sense of, "I know who I am and I'm doing what I feel called to do." That provides a tranquility of soul and who doesn't want that kind of tranquil soul where there's almost a calm joy. And Mark Divine has it.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, there we go. We know your crucible experiences, folks, are tough. They can be world rattlers. But we also know this, and Mark talked about it in his life, Warwick's talked about it many times on the show, they're not the end of your story. Your crucibles are not the end of the story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles and you apply them as you move forward, it can lead you down the path to the greatest destination you could ever reach, and that destination is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
15 Minutes of Horror, 20 Years of Healing: Jenny Lynn Anderson
Our guest this week, Jenny Lynn Anderson, was attacked by a knife-wielding assailant who did the unthinkable in 1990 when she left her hotel room during a convention she was working with.
The horrors of that day deeply affected her for two decades, until she rekindled her faith at a women’s Bible study and took her first steps toward wholeness, which culminated in the publication of her memoir, Room 939…15 Minutes of Horror, 20 Years of Healing.
In the book and in our conversation, she discusses her attempts to achieve restoration on her own and how the spiritual truths she embraced allowed her to forgive her attacker.
To learn more about Jenny Lynn Anderson, visit jennylynnanderson.com
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Mark Divine:
Everyone who shows up is physically prepared or else they wouldn't be there. And they're cognitively prepared. Their IQ, they passed a battery of tests and everything. But it's mental and emotional resiliency and your capacity to be an exceptional teammate that will determine whether you get through. Those are tough to measure, right? They're tough to measure. And they can only be exposed in the crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Mark Divine, discussing what his Navy SEAL training taught him about unlocking human potential through integrated training and mental toughness, leadership, and physical readiness. It's led him to create the Unbeatable Mind System, a framework that integrates physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual development that he now teaches to clients that include the next generation of SEALs.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Mark, it's wonderful to have you here on the podcast. Really appreciate you being on. And just before we get started, I want to read a brief bio, which is, I got to say, very impressive. Dr. Mark Divine, PhD, is a retired Navy SEAL commander, New York Times bestselling author, founder and CEO of SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mind, founder of Multiple Million Dollar Businesses, lifetime martial artist, ashtanga yoga teacher, and host of The Unbeatable Mind Podcast, which was recently rated a number one health podcast, and number 30 overall on iTunes, which is truly impressive.
And just to give folks some background, Mark has written a number of incredible books. We're going to talk a bit about his latest book Uncommon: Simple Practices for an Extraordinary Life, but there are others. And these are incredible titles, Unbeatable Mind: Forge Resiliency and Metal Toughness to Succeed in Elite Level, The Way of the SEAL: Think Like an Elite Warrior to Lead and Succeed. I love this title, Staring Down the Wolf: 7 Leadership Commitments that Forge Elite Teams. I mean, that is... What a title. 8 Weeks to SEALFIT: A Navy SEAL's Guide to Unconventional Training for Physical and Mental Toughness. And Kokoro Yoga: Maximize Your Human Potential to Develop the Spirit of a Warrior.
So I mean, every one of these titles are amazing. We'll get to Uncommon here in a bit. But tell us, Mark, a bit about your backstory. From what I understand, you grew up in a very small town in upstate New York, and your path was going on a certain trajectory, I think, from where you grew up. So talk about what was life like for young Mark and where was your life headed? What was the trajectory that was sort of, I don't know about mapped out for you, but kind of there was a trajectory in place perhaps.
Mark Divine:
Yeah. First, Warwick, thanks for having me on this show. I really appreciate it. It's great to meet you. I'll try to do the condensed version of this story. I can tell it in 45 minutes or five minutes. We'll try the five minute version. Yeah, so upstate New York, Barneveld, 375 people. And that was a little isolating, you might say. But there's a lot of good there too. Just beautiful surroundings, so I got to spend a lot of time outside. And this is pre-internet, pre-cell phones, as you know, we grew up and we had to be creative. And that was good for me because inside the home was a little bit turbulent. My father was pretty much a raging alcoholic and abusive. And my mom, the classic codependent, and I love them to death and forgive them for everything, but it really shut me down.
So I found a lot of solace being out in nature. And that played into me being an endurance athlete because I used to run like a billy goat up and down the Adirondack Mountains. And that was how I found a little bit of peace. Well, I became a pretty good competitive swimmer and I was academically... When that happens, when you grow up in traumatic situations, obviously, then you seek validation externally. So I of course did that as an overachiever. And that was good because that led me to a good university, Colgate University. I was recruited to swim competitively there.
So I did that routine, never once questioning who Mark really is, right? We didn't have that in our cultures, right? Maybe today we do, but you and I growing up, we didn't have mechanisms to question things very well. You just followed the song that was playing in the background. Well, the song that was playing in my background was my... We're a business family. Divines had a business that's over 100 years old, one of the legacy family businesses that survived World War I and World War II, and the boys went back and ran the family business. Well, because I was smart and went to Colgate, I thought, "Well, at least I can try something else en route to that, maybe put some money in the bank." And I followed some of my friends down to New York, got a job with Coopers & Lybrand, which is now Pricewaterhouse, PWC. And it was a program where they sent us to NYU to get our MBA, or MS in accounting, but then I got my MBA.
So I was off to the races, going to climb the corporate ladder, had a great job, was going to be an NBA CPA and all that. Well, what changed for me, the inflection point for me was I got into a martial arts program. I was looking for something additional that was more than sports to help me grow, to help me open up, to help me figure out what the hell was going on. And I had some experience from a college roommate where I watched him evolve through a martial art. I said, "Huh, there's something there." Well, when the student's ready, the teacher or the teachers will appear. And I walked into this studio called World Seido Headquarters. Seido means the Art of Sincerity.
And the grand master was a Japanese man who was very famous in Japan and he was unique. He was my first true mentor, even a father figure. And what was really unique about him was he was the full money, right? He was an integrated human being, body, mind, soul. And he acted and presented completely different than any other human being I'd ever come across in my life. And I was just absolutely floored and I wanted to taste that. And I found out that he led a Zen class. So not only was he the founder of this martial arts school, had all these incredible powers, I could tell you stories about some of the things I saw him do that you would not believe, right? Not believe. But that, again, inspired me. It showed me that the human being was capable of so much more than we'd been led to believe.
Anyways, I found out about the Zen class and here he is, he's a Zen master masquerading as a karate instructor, and he let me into the Zen class. So at the right page of 21, I started meditation and I never stopped because I found it... Partly because I trusted him so much and I had that container where if I just do what he says, I really believe that it's going to work. And that's really important to have a teacher who has a credible path, Zen being a credible path, for mental and emotional development. And that's what happened, but it happened at a very rapid pace because I was training so hard and so committed. It completely cracked my mind wide open, back to your origin story question, to where suddenly I had these experiences, right?
At first, I was able to settle my mind and focus and concentrate. And then I had this experience of distancing where I became the observer of my thoughts and emotions instead of thinking I am my thoughts and emotions. And that's when I could see that the story that I had been spoonfed growing up in this family and in this culture and everything wasn't my story. It was a story. So for the first time in my life, I started to ask questions, and that led to the dangerous question, "Who am I really?" And that completely changed my life.
Warwick Fairfax:
That was a game changer. And talk a bit about that because you would obviously know this very well, but we often think of the outward journey, but in some senses, the scarier, more important journey is the journey within, who are we? Why are we here?
Mark Divine:
Yeah, it's the most important journey. And the sooner you can get to that, then the sooner you can transform your life. Transformation does not come from the outside, right? That's the world duality of creation and that's where you're supposed to express your inner creativity. But if you're blocked from it, then you're going to be expressing it in ways that'll ultimately trap you. And that's what would have happened with me. So Nakamura taught me how to just slow down and be comfortable sitting in stillness. And it's in stillness that your creative expression and how you're supposed to be in the world is revealed to you. So how that worked for me is once I... You have to be very patient when you start with meditation. There's a lot of people don't succeed because they think it's going to be like I go to the gym and if I work out for three months, I'm going to lose some weight and see some six pack abs. Well, maybe three, maybe six months, maybe a year, and you will.
But with meditation, you don't have objective measures of progress, right? They're subjective. And we're not even taught to know what to look for. What I experienced was this growing sense of ability to just sit there with my thoughts. And at first at a distance where they weren't disturbing me, I didn't need to grab onto them and ride them and create some drama. But even then in abeyance where there was no thinking, but I was completely present and I used the term witnessing, which I later learned was a pretty common term for that experience. And it was in the witnessing moments where I kept getting this sensation bubbling up, and I would say bubbling up from my heart region, that I was a warrior and I was meant to be a warrior.
So I started to have a midlife crisis at 22 years old because I'm like, "How the heck am I supposed to be a warrior if I'm a CPA? That doesn't seem..." I'm not saying there aren't warrior CPAs out there. There probably are, but it didn't seem like the way I was supposed to be a warrior. So then I turned my question around to that. It's like, "If I'm supposed to be a warrior, then how?" And mind you, I wasn't thinking military, right? My father had a very distasteful experience with the military and so he kind of passed that down to me, like military is for people who can't get a real job, for low lives. And he was actually told by a judge, "Because you drove your car into the fraternity house drunk, you can either A, go to jail or B, join the army." He goes, "B, I'll choose B." So he didn't have a great experience with the military.
At any rate, so synchronicity happens when you are asking the right questions and you're not blocking the answers and you're starting to entertain them. So I'm entertaining this idea that I'm a warrior. "How am I supposed to be a warrior?" And then I'm walking home from work in reverie one day pondering this idea and I literally stumble across the Navy recruiting station and there's a poster there and the top of the poster said, "Be someone special." Now that caught my attention because I didn't feel very special based upon how I grew up. But it had Navy SEALs doing really cool shit. And it didn't say anything about the SEALs. It was just a bait and switch poster for the recruiters. But I looked at that, said, "Whoever they are, that's how I'm supposed to be a warrior."
Then long story short, all sorts of cool things happened with me practicing different things like visualization. I ended up getting one of two slots from the civilian world to go to Officer Candidate School to get commissioned and with a direct route to BUD/S, basic underwater demolition SEAL training after that. And so I left New York behind in 1989 with my MBA, my CPA, my first degree black belt in karate, and $100,000 job in 1989, I walked away from it all to be a Navy SEAL. I went through Navy SEAL training in 1990 and completely changed my life. And I guess I feel very fortunate to have discovered my path at such a young age. And it's one of the things I'm very passionate about helping others try to uncover and discover and get aligned because it is the most important thing in your life, I think.
Warwick Fairfax:
So can you imagine an alternate universe, your roommate didn't talk to you about meditation and that dojo that you walked past. And I think of that quote by Thoreau when he talks about people living lives of quiet desperation, that could have been you.
Mark Divine:
That could have been me.
Warwick Fairfax:
Gone back to upstate New York and work for decades in the family of business thinking, "Is this all there is?" I mean, you ever think about that could have been you?
Mark Divine:
Right. And I would have been a fraction of the man that I am today and the whole thing would have been a crucible, right? Because I would have been misaligned and yet not having any understanding of what was wrong, right? So that's where that anxiety builds over years and years and people turn to alcohol, and I would have turned to alcohol because that was the go to for my family. I'm not sure I'd be around today. That's how important it is.
If you don't align with your truth, and that is that underlying overarching reason that you incarnated, which is going to then expose the lessons you're meant to learn as an evolutionary being, then you're just going to have bigger and bigger challenges because the universe is going to try to right you, try to steer the back. And the further off course you get, the more and more challenging it gets, right? This is why people have major breakdowns and life and death accidents and cancer and all that. So the sooner that you can do the inner work, like you said, then the better off you're going to be because you can get on the right track.
Warwick Fairfax:
You have sort of an amazing, amazing journey, that journey of self-discovery and just turning your back. I'm sure at the time you probably had friends and family saying, "You're doing what? You were influenced by who? And you're going to go in the, say it ain't so, military? You're selling out everything we as a family believe in."
Mark Divine:
Yeah. Everything, right? I was throwing everything away. I was walking away from the family, turning my back in the family. My dad sent me a letter and said, "Get the rocks out of your head." All right. So I just had to stay the path and know that eventually they would see, and they did. And they actually came to my graduation. I graduated number one in my class. That's kind of the part of the story of what led me to what I do today is like, I learned so much from Nakamura over those four years and I wanted to continue that. So I continued using the skills, right? Every day, meditation, breath work, the visualization that I first learned from my college swim coach, who was a real pioneer in sports psychology. And I started to teach them to my small team during SEAL training, because you have what's called a boat crew. So I had six other guys with me.
We formed up right before Hell Week when things started to shake out and like 40 people had already quit the class out of 180. And then we went through Hell Week and we were so locked on because I began to teach them these skills that we became indomitable. And we actually secured Hell Week early by six hours and got nice and dry, and we watched the class get hammered for an extra six hours. And then all six of us, seven of us sailed through training. And the end of training, nine months, there were only 19 of us left of the 180 and seven of them were me and my team. So that had such a profound impact on me like, "Okay, I think I want to continue to develop these ideas and then made me someday teach them." And that's exactly what I did.
So when I got off active duty in 1997 or so, I started a company called NavySeals.com. I actually started two companies, right? I was an overachiever. I started the Coronado Brewing Company, which it's a pretty good size microbrewery now. And I got out of that about five years later because my partners were my brothers-in-laws and that didn't go so well, as you can imagine. But I started NavySeals.com and through that, I bought that domain for like $35.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh my gosh.
Mark Divine:
I know. Thinking-
Gary Schneeberger:
That's crazy.
Mark Divine:
... if someone's going to do this, but it should probably be a SEAL. That was my naive thinking. The Navy later on didn't love that I owned it, but they often didn't offer to buy it from me either. They tried to take it from me. I said, "No, that's not how this is going to work." Anyways, so with that platform, I was selling gear, so we had e-commerce. And then I had forums back in the early days of the internet, remember forums? So we had all these training forums and I was giving guidance to include everything I'd learned from Nakamura, nutrition, health, training. And that led to me getting hired by the Navy to mentor Navy SEALs nationwide on a government contract.
Now, this is another one of my crucibles where I had that contract for a year and we just absolutely performed brilliantly. We took the pass rate on the screening test from 30% up to over 87%. We helped improve the quality of the recruit SEALs coming into SEAL training, which over time improved the throughput because we were trying to get more SEALs into the force. But the contract got literally stolen right out from under me by Blackwater USA. You've probably heard of that company.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Mark Divine:
Yeah. They were the yeehaws running around Iraq, killing innocent-
Gary Schneeberger:
Erik Prince.
Mark Divine:
Right, Erik Prince.
Gary Schneeberger:
Erik Prince the owner.
Mark Divine:
He wanted that contract so badly for the PR value because it was a very high profile mentoring Navy SEAL candidates. Anyways, took a $10 million contract, ripped it right out for me. And everyone's saying, "Mark, you got to fight that. That was fraud." And it was. And I said, "No, I'm not going to fight that." I went back to the meditation bench and started asking those questions again. And the answer that came to me is, "You know what? You don't want one client in the US government telling you what you can't do," because they were telling me I can't do the inner domain stuff, "You can't teach these kids visualization, breath work, meditation. You can't do that because we don't have any evidence that it works. What we want you to do is just take them to the pool and beat the shit out of them, make them tough." And we could do that too, but that was not the whole package.
So I decided to launch a business that really kind of sprung out of NavySeals.com and I called it SEALFIT. And I launched a program where these students could come live with me for 30 days at a really cool training center I developed in Encinitas, California that looked like a mini BUD/S compound, mini Navy SEAL training. We trained every morning, every day from like 5:00 AM to 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00, sometimes around the clock every single weekend. We had one day off in 30 days. And that was my Petri dish. And out of that, I developed the 8 Weeks to SEALFIT training regimen, and that book became a New York Times bestseller, and it was used by a lot of the military and law enforcement first responders. And then also the Unbeatable Mind Model, which was all the training of the inner domain. And I wrote a book about that, and then that became a separate company later on. It was an incredibly creative period in my life, and just really extraordinary.
And by the way, I'll end this piece on this, the students that I trained have a 90% success rate getting through Navy SEAL training. It's like upside down from the average Navy SEAL. And they're really... If you get to the front door of BUD/S, you are prepared, right, supposedly. But 90% fail. And the students that I trained, they would get to BUD/S and thrive with a smile on their face and 90% would succeed, which is cool. So the Navy kind of started to take notice and now they're integrating these principles and training into the BUD/S program along with the Air Force and some other special ops programs.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it's amazing what you're saying because one of the things you write about is in your BUD/S class, you mentioned out of 185 candidates, 19 graduated. That's a pretty low percentage, but it may be normal. And as you mentioned, you finished first, but it seems like, as you were saying, I mean, I'm sure everybody that goes in there must be supremely fit athletes, just walking in. So that's a given, otherwise you wouldn't even enter the doorway. But it's that mental toughness. And you give one example of you were at the bottom of the pool and some instructor that I guess was nicknamed Dr. Evil, which I guess kind of says it all, but talk about what you did because a lot of people wouldn't have got out of that dilemma that you're in. But it was your mental toughness that would have enabled you to survive that test.
Mark Divine:
Right. So first off, you're right. Everyone who shows up is physically prepared or else they wouldn't be there. And they're cognitively prepared. Their IQ, they passed a battery of tests and everything. But it's mental and emotional resiliency and your capacity to be an exceptional teammate that will determine whether you get through. Those are tough to measure, right? They're tough to measure. And they can only be exposed in the crucible. BUD/S in itself is a crucible. But then there's many crucibles along the way, Hell Week being the most famous. So Hell Week is six days of nonstop training, around the clock, no sleep.
So give you examples, we had 185. By the time we got the Hell Week, which seven weeks into our training, we had already lost 40, so we're down about 140, 145. And when we got out of Hell Week, we had about 45. And then those 45 whittled down to 19 by the end of the training, which was another five months. Anyways, so this particular incident was another crucible. It's called pool competency, right? So it's designed to test your ability to control your mind and your emotions in one of the most dangerous situations that you can be, which is underwater cut off from an air supply.
So they literally, you go down with a regulator and tanks on your back and it's an old system they use intentionally because it has these two hoses they call it a double hose system. So you get down to the bottom of the deep end of this pool, the combat training tank, which is Navy SEAL speak for pool, and you just kind of hang out, and then suddenly you get attacked, and you get attacked by a Dr. Evil type character, and he literally beats the shit out of you underwater, rips all your gear off, your face mask, your fins, your weight belt, and he rips your tanks off, and then he takes that double hose and he ties into a knot and cuts off all potential for any air. And you just got to wait patiently for him to finish messing with you.
And then when he's done messing with you, a minute or minute and a half into this thing, you've got to find your gear and you got to don your equipment, you got to don it in the right order. And the right order isn't to go for the air first, it's to get your mask on so you can see. And then you go start to work on the tanks, and you try to get this knot undone. And boy, it is not easy, so to speak, to undo a knot underwater when you have all that anxiety of now you're two and a half, three minutes of holding your breath.
So for me, I found it to be much easier than most as a result of the training I had done because my mind was really calm and I had a mantra to maintain that calmness. And I'd been practicing breath work for now five years, so I had a really good lung capacity. And I also could tell when air was really necessary versus just the natural inclination to think, "Oh, I need to breathe." So I was able to hold my breath for a while. But it was the calmness under pressure that was really that made the difference. I literally had to get my foot up there and yank on this regulator. Finally, a little pop of bubble, a couple bubbles came out, a little stream. So instead of keep working, I just put the whole thing in my mouth and let it fill my mouth up and then I swallowed that into my lungs, gave me another 30 seconds.
So those are the types of crucibles that the SEALs would curate for you in a very controlled environment. This is dangerous work, mind you, but they had safety swimmers and people do shallow water blackouts and they'd get them out and they revive them. And I don't think they've had anyone die in that particular evolution. I mean, students have died at BUD/S before because it's extremely dangerous training.
But this is one way, Warwick, that I think that we can talk about crucibles being really beneficial for growth. I have a section in my book, The Way of the Seal, I say, "Bring the challenge to you before it comes to you on its own." So you can do things to curate a safe crucible experience that will give you a tremendous amount of mental, emotional resiliency, a deep awareness and appreciation for what you're really capable of. And as you're enduring the crucible, because you've selected and committed to endure the crucible, you have a growing insight and awareness that question who you really are.
Which is one of the things we did at SEALFIT, we created these 50 hour, 24 hour and 12 hour crucibles, and they were nonstop trainings. So the 50 hour one was world famous because people come from all over the place for it, to get this experience of what is it like to train the hardest training in the world for 50 hours nonstop, no sleep. And the students say there's kind of life before that experience and life after because life after everything that seemed hard is now not hard, right? Things that really used to stress them out, now they have a great distance from and a perspective that that's not a big deal. And that's the benefit of the crucible, right? That's the beyond the crucial. Beyond it, you see, "Oh, it actually was necessary." It was very useful and beneficial, albeit painful, but you have a great sense of gratitude for it.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've just talked, Mark, about just general crucible experiences. The folks who are listening and watching this right now who are not going to go through Navy SEAL training, but how they can apply what you know, what you've learned, what you've practiced. And there's something that you said that I think fits in here for everybody who's listening and viewing. And you said this, "The way you do anything is the way you do everything." How does that apply to average "everyday" crucibles that we go through as it's applied to your own life? You learn that through the experiences you've talked about, but that applies to all of us in our own realms, right?
Mark Divine:
Well, I first heard that in the SEALs, we were fond of saying that, and it was really about paying attention to detail. So if you were someone who didn't really pay attention to their gear and you didn't think it was a big deal because maybe you'd already taped up your gear a couple weeks ago, you didn't need to tape it up for stealthiness this time, or you didn't clean it from yesterday. Well, eventually your gear will fail you. But the reality is, if you're shortchanging your own gear, then where else are you shortchanging your life?
So later on, as I developed an awareness, I took that meaning of the way you do anything is the way you do everything, to be much more about awareness and presence, right? So when you develop greater awareness, which is synonymous with greater presence, then everything, every moment, every interaction, everything you do, you put your full attention to. And because you're giving your full attention, you're giving it everything that you have. And the results that accrue from this are extraordinary because you're not throwing your energy around and thinking you're getting further ahead by multitasking because you're not.
You're not focusing on the wrong things because with growing awareness, you're able to see what's the right thing to focus on. You stop taking on so many commitments because you realize how bogged down and contracted you get when you over commit and you've got too many things, too many resentments that you took this project on or that project or this didn't work or that didn't work. You're not able to let that shit go, because we have claw marks on things that we start and don't want to let go of, to include our businesses or family businesses. So we want to develop this capacity to be very present and discerning with where we put our attention and with the people and the tasks that we take on.
So this is where the warriors principle of simplicity comes in. And I think everyone who's been through a very challenging crucible has It was this experience like, "Wow, life is precious. I don't need to keep on putting points on the board and I don't need to keep on taking on new commitments and distracting myself because everything I have is right here, right now, right in front of me. Everything I need, I mean, is right here right now, right in front of me." And people on their deathbed, they don't go back and say, "I wish I had started more businesses and put more money in the bank." They say is, "I wish I'd spent more time with my family."
Warwick Fairfax:
I want to talk a bit about your latest book, Uncommon. And one of the things I love how you start that book is you have a whole series of statements about what common is. And there's a twist to this after you read it. So you state, "Common is going to business school because dad approves, though your dream is to be a Navy SEAL or become a digital nomad. Common is continuing to eat crappy food because you don't have the time to prepare healthy meals. Common is knowing your relationship isn't going to last but not having the courage to end it. Common is blowing off studying for the kegger, you'll make up the studying the next day. Common is blaming your parents for your less savory qualities rather than taking control of your mind and life to change things for the better. Common is dreaming about becoming an uber successful entrepreneur during your 9:00 to 5:00, yet not taking definitive daily action towards the goal. Common is keeping your mouth shut when you see abuse or injustice because you're afraid to take action. Common is knowing there's an entrepreneur, warrior, artist, teacher, or influencer inside you, that you're too paralyzed by imposter syndrome to pursue it."
And what's amazing after you read it is you say basically, "That was me." And you basically make this statement, which I love, saying is you don't want to be common. You want to lead an uncommon life. And you get to several categories. So talk about, and this is really another way of looking at your whole life's work in a sense, talk about why you don't want to lead that common life. You could have led a common life based on the family business and all that. That would have been Coopers & Lybrand. So talk about what a common life is and why you do not want to lead a common life.
Mark Divine:
Well, first of all, it's not meant to be a judgment, right? Because most people live a common life. What I'm trying to do is distinguish between taking radical responsibility for living the life that you're meant to live. And as I mentioned earlier, our culture does not... And I have Western culture, so Australia, America, probably Europe, structurally, governmental society, systems, and you were part of the media, you know this, it wouldn't be very profitable if everyone was running around free, not needing anybody or anything, not needing any government to control them, not being susceptible to any marketing or subliminal programming or political manipulation. Because ultimately, common is the normal human condition, just living your life.
But that's suffering. I mean, Buddhism tells us that living just the everyday reality and taking it to be real, what they call the dream state, taking it to be real, is the root of suffering. So in that regard, everyone living a common life is living a life of quiet desperation, but they're masking it over and they're drowning with entertainment and constant distraction. But at a deep level, there's this fear and anxiety because they're trying to prop up this ego that says that I am important. I'm special. And yet they're not feeling it. They're not feeling worthy. There's so much shame baked into our culture and that needs to be worked through.
So the first kind of phase of waking up to your uncommonness is to recognize that if you're not training your mind, the world's training it for you, someone's training you for you. And the results will speak for yourself. From the moment you open your eyes as a baby, your mind is being trained and conditioned and formed and shaped, just like molding a piece of clay. But you don't have any agency in that. But you do as an adult, but people they don't claim that agency. They continue to let the mind be conditioned by everything around them. And they get so encrusted or reified into this identity of theirs that they can't see beyond it. And that's common.
So the idea of being uncommon is to wake up from that reality and say, "Screw that. I am going to take charge of gaining clarity on who I am and what I'm supposed to do about it on this plane and to be free." Right? The human spirit craves freedom. It's a constant movement toward freedom inwardly, while outwardly, we constantly move toward further entrapping ourselves. But we are the prison guards of our own prison. And the key is through our mind. So we have to start by training your mind. And in the book, I break it into five sections and I call them the five mountains. These are the five human experience domains that we need to train and then reintegrate to bring them all together into one experience, physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual. And I use the term Kokoro, which means heart, mind, merged into actions.
And the reason I start with physical mountain is that my experience is the body and the mind are not two separate things. It's one thing, right? And so if you try to train your mind without bringing your body into the equation, like they do in the martial arts or traditional yoga, then you're cutting yourself off, you're going to have a disembodied mental development, which is more likely to be enhancing your egoic structures rather than breaking them down. So we've got to get the body really healthy and move the body and develop the ability to control our arousal response to get out of this hyper aroused state of fight or flight that we're all kind of trapped in so that your embodied mind is capable of now going deeper into the inner work through the meditative processes.
And then as we go through the meditative processes and we begin to separate from our thoughts and emotions, we begin to see the patterns that have been driving our reactive behavior, and we begin to objectify those patterns and work on them. We call that emotional development. And a lot of those patterns are trauma informed, meaning that they come from a very young age, or even multi-generational, like alcoholism and the rage of my father's side of the family. So now we're working on the physical, mental, and emotional to try to really, really sharpen our mind, open our mind, use our whole mind to include heart and belly mind. You have neurons, your heart is a brain and your gut is a brain, your entire body, entire nervous system, is part of your brain system. So you bring that online through these training methodologies.
Then it's like opening the aperture on a camera. You begin to perceive more. You stop identifying with the objective so much because the subjective experience becomes richer and richer for you. And your identity shifts from, "I am this body named Mark who has this degree and that degree and was a Navy SEAL," to, "I am, period." Non-personal, total pure subjectivity, "I am." That's what the eye is. But also nested within that bigger eye, that witnessing eye, is this idea that Mark came about and has this mission and is going to fulfill this mission, and so we're going to take care of the body. We're not going to leave it behind in our spiritual or whatever you want to call this awakening journey. We're going to actually bring it along with us and we're going to reenter the world as an uncommon being who's fully awake, fully aware, fully embodied.
And the experience is one of great care and concern for all beings, world-centric care and concern, compassion, open mind, open-heartedness, great clarity around why you're here and what you're meant to do about it. And fear begins to just slip away. Fear and anxiety slip away. So you end up being much calmer. I'm not saying you don't experience all the emotions. Of course you do, but you don't get convinced by them. You don't get caught up in them.
Warwick Fairfax:
I really find this sort of fascinating is that it almost to me, and I'd love you to hear your thoughts, is the ultimate SEAL journey is the journey within. That is the hardest, toughest, it's a lifelong journey. It's easy to tap out at any one point, right? "I've had enough. I'm giving up."
Mark Divine:
Yeah, you're right. I think a lot of people do tap out because I remember in going to a retreat once and the instructor is like, "Yeah, the mind's a dangerous place to go. Don't go in there alone." A lot of people are a little afraid of going in there and seeing what they're going to find because they're going to unroot some unpleasant things and they know that. I went to a seven day kind of emotional development retreat, they took your phone and you had no distractions. They didn't even want you to work out because they didn't want you to stir up all your patterns all the time from distraction, of hiding. And it was pretty extraordinary. But I remember being nervous like, "Do I really want to do this? I'm going to discover who I really am at an inner emotional level. I mean, that's going to be ugly." But it's necessary work, right? And men have trouble with that because they think, "Well, emotions are soft underbelly. We don't go there."
But I think in this world that we're heading into this VUCA world with AI and who knows what's coming even in the next five years, I think the most important thing for all of us, leaders, whether you think you're a leader or not, first of all, everyone's a leader because you have to lead yourself, the most important skill to develop is the ability to sit in silence and to tap into your intuition and in your intuition also lies your creativity. It's an inside game. Creativity and intuition is an inside game. And we don't know if AI will have intuition, but right now it's looking like AI can take everything that their left brain cognitive functions used to do okay and do it better. So what are you going to be left with? Like what's the most human part of you? That beingness that you talked about instead of the doing this. If the doingness is handled by a robot or AI, unless you go into some trade, which is more and more common, the most important work for you is to figure out who are you really? And to bring your gift into the world.
Like you said, I 100% agree with you, Warwick, that everyone has a unique kind of genetic/soul blueprint. There's not a single human that is the same. You might have some twins who look the same, but we know they're all radically different. And part of that is karmic, rebirth energy. Part of that is probably all the conditioning and the actual genetic makeup and DNA. But then there's the part which is actually being driven by that inner voice, that silent inner voice. But if you don't slow down and still yourself to be able to hear that and you crowd it out, then you're going to be much more susceptible to all that imprinting and training and pressure from the outside in the form of friends, family, social media, whatnot, just pulling you in all sorts of directions that aren't good for you.
Warwick Fairfax:
What you're saying is so profound, is that you've got to quiet all the negative voices, whether it's internal or external, because until you do that, you can't hear those whispers. I think in the Old Testament talks about the still small voice of God, that quiet whisper. With all the yelling, you're going to miss it, but you've got to quiet all those voices to be able to hear that eternal whisper that kind of points you forward. And yes, one of the things you're talking about, which I think is so true, certainly as men you're taught to not be vulnerable, vulnerable is weakness, but when you can find friends who you can be vulnerable with and they still like you and says, "Well, okay, I did dumb stuff and I've made mistakes and you're loved unconditionally for who you are," that is sort of a game changer when you find your tribe, you find your team, maybe in your case, your sort of boat crew, in a sense. And I've certainly found that helpful.
But it's hard because again, from my faith perspective, we talk about this dark and light, and most religious traditions talk about that. So like one example for me is, I was privileged to go to Harvard Business School where I'm thinking after my spectacular failure, I can't go to reunion. They'll laugh at me. "Oh yeah, Warwick Fairfax, the guy who blew his upbringing and $2 billion failure," and I just thought that was going to happen, that was the truth, the lies I was hearing. So eventually, a number of years later, I went to a reunion and they weren't like that at all.
Mark Divine:
Of course.
Warwick Fairfax:
Then about five, 10 years ago, I forget how long it was, a friend of mine said, "Hey, Warwick, we've got a number of people in your graduating class of '87. They're going to be talking about some of the challenges and resilience. We'd like you to do five, seven minute talk." And I mentioned that and people couldn't have been more affirming. These are people at the time that sort of maybe late 50s, early 60s, they're either retired or at the pinnacle of their professional careers, CEOs, very successful people, and yet there was acceptance, not judgment. And had all sorts of different cross-sections, probably different beliefs. But from my perspective, the enemy, the lies say, "Oh, you will be rejected if you're vulnerable." And sometimes you will be, but not as often as we think.
So to me, one of the keys I love to hear your thoughts is as you're trying to do this internal voyage of discovery, I'm a great believer that therapy can absolutely be helpful, but you also want to find what we call a team of fellow travelers, people that will be in there with you, that they know you, and they accept you for who you are. Does that make sense? What's your experience?
Mark Divine:
I 100% agree. It's very difficult to do emotional growth alone because it's all about relational. Of course, the first relationship is with yourself. So the deepest work is on your own worthiness. To root out the fears and anxieties that you weren't good enough or worthy or loved. And these happen at a very young age, before object permanence even is developed in the brain. Your mom leaving the room and maybe have an argument with her husband, I mean, that's like death to a child and they take it 100% personally. First of all, the mother isn't in the other room. The mother just disappears because they don't have object permanence. They don't know if she's permanent. So then if she reappears later, that's great for the kid, but for a while she's gone. Might as well be dead. And then to have the trauma of them arguing, right? The kid doesn't have the faculties to say, "Well, it's not my fault. It's not me."
Anyway, so there's not a single human that doesn't grow up with trauma. And it's like my first litmus test when I work with the climate is if they say, "Yeah, I had a perfect childhood." And I'm like, "Mm-hmm. We got a lot of work to do here." These fears and anxieties come with us, and so we got to work on that first. But boy, it's like magnified 10 times over if you can do that in a trusted environment with a small group, not a large group, but a small group of committed fellow journey people. We call that a community of practice. And I find that men tend to work really well in men's groups because there's some things they don't think they can really share fully and openly with women around. But it doesn't have to be. It can be mixed groups that works well too.
And I see more and more of these coming. In fact, I'm part of one that's out of Canada called Longship, which is bringing people together in small teams, very similar to what we did at BUD/S and with the SEALs, like a small team, eight people, probably a good number, and you meet once a month and you have a system and protocol and rules for discussing these really hard things that are going on in our lives and it's a safe place. And what's said there stays there. And I think that's an extremely powerful way to really develop emotional awareness and do some trauma healing. Of course, if you can support that with effective therapy, if you could find a really good therapist, that's also really important. I call it emotional coaching. I asked my clients, these guys that are written, said, "You have no problem getting a fitness coach or a nutritional coach or an executive coach. Why don't you get an emotional coach?" And of course they're like, "Because that would mean I'm broken." I said, "No, no, you're not broken. You're human."
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things we say a lot at Beyond the Crucible is we believe in leading a life of significance, which we define as a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So it's our perspective. I think most major religions would agree with this is that just a hedonistic, "It's all about me and life and success and money and power," I don't know any major religion that believes that will lead toward spirituality, will lead to happiness, long-term fulfillment because humans aren't designed that way. You may not like how we were designed, but it is what it is. You can't alter our fundamental spiritual DNA. We yearn to have a purpose beyond ourselves that somehow helps others and joy and fulfillment come from there. So talk a bit about that, because I imagine you probably dwell on those areas too about life's purpose.
Mark Divine:
Sure. Big time. What's coming up for me is a lot of folks I've worked with are stuck in this idea of legacy, right? And I heard that a little bit with some of your earlier thinking about the family dynasty and whatnot. And the problem with legacy is you're putting your worth on something external objective that you have created or grown or that you're proud of and you're going to get the name on the medical school or the whatever, and people are going to remember you. Well, they won't. They'll know there's a name, but it won't be about you. So all of that serves to strengthen the egoic structure, strengthen your ego.
Whereas service, the idea of your purpose is in service in a unique way, right? And you can use the Ikigai model to help you like, "Okay, what are my most powerful skills? What am I good at? What am I not good at? What do I love? What do I hate? What does the world need?" And then you can begin to zero in on how you can serve. But again, the most important part is not what you do, but who you are.
So I like to use the idea of archetypes. So when I was meditating in the 20s with Nakamura, I didn't have this sense that I was meant to be a Navy SEAL when I was sitting on the meditation bench. That's doing. I had the sense that I was a warrior. That's being. And so the warrior became my dominant archetype, and it's not dominant anymore, but it's still there. It's a close second or third. So everyone's got a couple dominant archetypes. It's really helpful to discern, to uncover those. You can use the Yungian archetypes as an example, or the Enneagram, just online take an Enneagram test and you can find, oh, you're a joker or you're a warrior or you're an alchemist or whatever, a sage. Great. That's a pointer for you. That's how you're supposed to serve. Find something within that energy to allow you to serve and then get your ego out of it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, that sounds you heard folks is the captain has turned on the fast and seatbelt sign indicating we've begun our dissent to land the plane on this conversation. Before we do that though, I would be remiss, Mark, if I did not give you the chance to let listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you and the services you offer through the worldwide web.
Mark Divine:
Thanks so much. Appreciate that. My website is markdivine.com. So you can find pretty much all my training and books and everything there. The podcast is now called The Mark Divine Show. I might change it back to Unbeatable Mind. And I do a lot of great interviews, but mostly I'm starting to do more teaching, just me like teaching one directional. The program, Unbeatable Mind, we work with organizations and corporations and we have some phenomenal tribe and community. Information for that is at unbeatablemind.com. And thanks for letting me share and having the conversation here today. It's been awesome.
Gary Schneeberger:
We're almost done. Warwick always has the right of last question or two. So Warwick, I will flip it back to you to truly land the plane on our conversation today.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, again, Mark, thank you for being here and just what a wonderful conversation. There might be somebody here today that maybe they might feel like today is their worst day. They're thinking of maybe tapping out in one way or the other, even if it's just like, "I'm just going to hide under the covers and just give up on life. I'm just going to wile away the next few decades." What would a word of hope be for somebody that might feel like today is maybe their worst day?
Mark Divine:
Well, metaphor, imagine that you lived in a country, maybe like England where it was cloudy all the time and you lived at the base of a mountain, it's always cloudy, always raining, always depressing. And that's what your life feels like right now. But one day you get inspired to climb that mountain and you climb up and all of a sudden you break through the clouds, you're like, "Holy shit, the sun up here. This has always been here. I've just never seen it because I didn't climb high enough." So recognize that the sun is always there, right?
Your witness, your awareness, your relationship with God, whatever, however you want to talk about it is always there. And the part of you that is feeling like shit is the ego. And they both exist side by side or one nested within the other. So to turn toward the witness and the way to do that is to just sit quietly. And in that immediacy of that moment of being sitting there quietly, you can get the sense that everything is okay and you're having a moment. So don't fight the moment, just let the moment be. Don't mess with it. Just know that you are not that. You are way more than that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word's been spoken on the subject and our guest today, Mark Divine, has indeed spoken it. And he's spoken it the way he's spoken pretty much everything in this episode, with a real catchy calm, I'll call it. It's hard to listen to him talk without feeling like, "Huh."
Well, Warwick, we just had a really interesting conversation with our guest, Mark Divine, and there's a whole lot of stuff that we could pull from that were takeaways. Let's try to pull it down to what's the one takeaway that you hope listeners and viewers get from our conversation with Mark?
Warwick Fairfax:
Mark was a fascinating person, grows up in a small town in upstate New York and has a pretty challenging upbringing. There was some alcoholism and some different things in his family. And he also grew up in a family business background. I think it was generational, like me in a sense. Listeners, I also grew up in a generational family business in Australia. And he was on track to be a CPA, MBA at Coopers & Lybrand, that's a big accounting firm. So his life changes when he walks past this dojo, this martial arts place where he learns meditation. He does this inner journey that he ends up becoming a Navy SEAL and top of his class, number one out of 185 candidates, and now has this whole business movement with SEALFIT, Unbeatable Mind. He's written many books, including his most recent book, Uncommon: Simple Practices for an Extraordinary Life.
And to me, the one takeaway is being a SEAL and graduating through BUD/S is tough, but the toughest journey for him was the inner journey, not the external journey. So he spent his life really understanding who he is, what his passions are, his gifting. It's incredible. He talks in his book Uncommon about themes that we talk about. It's sort of a Japanese construct called the Ikigai chart. Basically it looks at what do you love? What are you good at? What does the world need? And obviously what will they pay for? And the center of all of that. And we talk about that in similar fashion. What is your gifting? We're all inherently wired by God a certain way. What is your passions and beliefs? What do you love to do? How will this serve the world and lead to a life of significance and life on purpose dedicated to serving others?
So we talk about a lot of the same things, maybe in different language, but there's commonality. So I think one of the things that Mark is saying is, you first got to quiet the mind and the soul, just calm your spirit, calm the external voices, the internal voices that are not helpful to begin to hear your own soul, your own spirit about what is it that you want to do. If he hadn't done the soul work, I think he wouldn't have been at a point where walking past that Navy recruiting center that he didn't say, "You know what? This whole warrior motif really seems to be me. And I feel like this is the next step." I'm not sure he knew where that was going to lead precisely. I don't know that he even knew it was going to lead to being a Navy SEAL. Still less all the books that he's written and the work that he's done, which is incredible.
But it's really one of the things he really gets at is just the journey within is the ultimate journey. And we talk about this too, the journey of becoming, not just the external climbing up the ladder. It's like it's sort of meaningless because it doesn't lead to joy and fulfillment. It's that journey within to discover, "What is my purpose? Who am I? Who do I want to be?" He was fortunate to discover that in his 20s, or at least begin on the journey. I, with the family of business, failed when I was in my late 20s and age 30. It took me a few years to begin the journey, but I've also been on that journey for quite a lot of years now. And really, that is the key journey of life. It's the journey within. It's a journey to become, from my perspective, who God intended you to be. It's not the external climb, the corporate ladder. It's not wrong, but the greatest journey, the greatest challenge, the ultimate challenge is the journey within.
That's what Mark Divine has spent a lifetime in, teaching and training others to calm their spirits and to really get in touch with, from my perspective, their divine purpose. Because it's in doing that that your heart begins to sing. It's in doing that, that your life goes from a Thoreau-like world of quiet desperation, a black and white world to a life of full color, living color, if you will, where it doesn't mean you don't have challenges, but you're excited about life, you feel like you're making a difference and then you feel like life has purpose. And yes, you'll have moments of exasperation.
But yet overall, there's a sense of just calmness and a sense of, "I know who I am, I know why I'm here, at least in some sense, and I'm grateful for the journey that I'm on." And you're just living every day with some degree of joy and fulfillment. It doesn't mean there aren't speed bumps. But there's this sense of overall tranquility, even when there are speed bumps that, "I have some idea of why I'm here and I'm using the gifting that I have for a higher purpose." So there's definitely, I felt like there was some commonality between Mark's thinking and writing and what we do here. So it was a fascinating conversation.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And he was one of the most soft-spoken, quiet, calm people we've ever interviewed. In fact, when we're on this side and recording, if we're talking like right now, the box around me is lit up because I'm talking, his box went unlit up so many times. He would speak and then he'd stop. He'd think, his light would go off. I mean, he was just so calm. He really exudes that. I mean, you talked about not wanting a life of quiet desperation. Mark Divine's living a life of quiet erudition. I mean, he really is quietly helping people significantly. And I think that is admirable.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. A frenzied, panic filled spirit is not a good one. A good spirit is one of calmness and joy and a sense of, "I know who I am and I'm doing what I feel called to do." That provides a tranquility of soul and who doesn't want that kind of tranquil soul where there's almost a calm joy. And Mark Divine has it.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, there we go. We know your crucible experiences, folks, are tough. They can be world rattlers. But we also know this, and Mark talked about it in his life, Warwick's talked about it many times on the show, they're not the end of your story. Your crucibles are not the end of the story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles and you apply them as you move forward, it can lead you down the path to the greatest destination you could ever reach, and that destination is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
In this episode of Beyond the Crucible, part of our “More Stories From the Book: Crucible Leadership” series, we explore the powerful life story of Joni Eareckson Tada—an artist, author, speaker, and global advocate who turned unimaginable adversity into a life of purpose and impact.
After a life-altering accident left her quadriplegic, Joni didn’t just learn how to survive—she discovered how to thrive. We unpack how her journey through suffering became a foundation for resilience, faith, leadership, and service to others.
If you’re navigating hardship, searching for meaning after a setback, or looking for inspiring leadership lessons, Joni’s story offers practical insight and lasting hope.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Why your crucible can become your greatest source of impact
How to turn your worst moments into growth and purpose
The role of faith and mindset in overcoming adversity
Leadership lessons from enduring life’s toughest challenges
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Mark Divine:
Everyone who shows up is physically prepared or else they wouldn't be there. And they're cognitively prepared. Their IQ, they passed a battery of tests and everything. But it's mental and emotional resiliency and your capacity to be an exceptional teammate that will determine whether you get through. Those are tough to measure, right? They're tough to measure. And they can only be exposed in the crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Mark Divine, discussing what his Navy SEAL training taught him about unlocking human potential through integrated training and mental toughness, leadership, and physical readiness. It's led him to create the Unbeatable Mind System, a framework that integrates physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual development that he now teaches to clients that include the next generation of SEALs.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Mark, it's wonderful to have you here on the podcast. Really appreciate you being on. And just before we get started, I want to read a brief bio, which is, I got to say, very impressive. Dr. Mark Divine, PhD, is a retired Navy SEAL commander, New York Times bestselling author, founder and CEO of SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mind, founder of Multiple Million Dollar Businesses, lifetime martial artist, ashtanga yoga teacher, and host of The Unbeatable Mind Podcast, which was recently rated a number one health podcast, and number 30 overall on iTunes, which is truly impressive.
And just to give folks some background, Mark has written a number of incredible books. We're going to talk a bit about his latest book Uncommon: Simple Practices for an Extraordinary Life, but there are others. And these are incredible titles, Unbeatable Mind: Forge Resiliency and Metal Toughness to Succeed in Elite Level, The Way of the SEAL: Think Like an Elite Warrior to Lead and Succeed. I love this title, Staring Down the Wolf: 7 Leadership Commitments that Forge Elite Teams. I mean, that is... What a title. 8 Weeks to SEALFIT: A Navy SEAL's Guide to Unconventional Training for Physical and Mental Toughness. And Kokoro Yoga: Maximize Your Human Potential to Develop the Spirit of a Warrior.
So I mean, every one of these titles are amazing. We'll get to Uncommon here in a bit. But tell us, Mark, a bit about your backstory. From what I understand, you grew up in a very small town in upstate New York, and your path was going on a certain trajectory, I think, from where you grew up. So talk about what was life like for young Mark and where was your life headed? What was the trajectory that was sort of, I don't know about mapped out for you, but kind of there was a trajectory in place perhaps.
Mark Divine:
Yeah. First, Warwick, thanks for having me on this show. I really appreciate it. It's great to meet you. I'll try to do the condensed version of this story. I can tell it in 45 minutes or five minutes. We'll try the five minute version. Yeah, so upstate New York, Barneveld, 375 people. And that was a little isolating, you might say. But there's a lot of good there too. Just beautiful surroundings, so I got to spend a lot of time outside. And this is pre-internet, pre-cell phones, as you know, we grew up and we had to be creative. And that was good for me because inside the home was a little bit turbulent. My father was pretty much a raging alcoholic and abusive. And my mom, the classic codependent, and I love them to death and forgive them for everything, but it really shut me down.
So I found a lot of solace being out in nature. And that played into me being an endurance athlete because I used to run like a billy goat up and down the Adirondack Mountains. And that was how I found a little bit of peace. Well, I became a pretty good competitive swimmer and I was academically... When that happens, when you grow up in traumatic situations, obviously, then you seek validation externally. So I of course did that as an overachiever. And that was good because that led me to a good university, Colgate University. I was recruited to swim competitively there.
So I did that routine, never once questioning who Mark really is, right? We didn't have that in our cultures, right? Maybe today we do, but you and I growing up, we didn't have mechanisms to question things very well. You just followed the song that was playing in the background. Well, the song that was playing in my background was my... We're a business family. Divines had a business that's over 100 years old, one of the legacy family businesses that survived World War I and World War II, and the boys went back and ran the family business. Well, because I was smart and went to Colgate, I thought, "Well, at least I can try something else en route to that, maybe put some money in the bank." And I followed some of my friends down to New York, got a job with Coopers & Lybrand, which is now Pricewaterhouse, PWC. And it was a program where they sent us to NYU to get our MBA, or MS in accounting, but then I got my MBA.
So I was off to the races, going to climb the corporate ladder, had a great job, was going to be an NBA CPA and all that. Well, what changed for me, the inflection point for me was I got into a martial arts program. I was looking for something additional that was more than sports to help me grow, to help me open up, to help me figure out what the hell was going on. And I had some experience from a college roommate where I watched him evolve through a martial art. I said, "Huh, there's something there." Well, when the student's ready, the teacher or the teachers will appear. And I walked into this studio called World Seido Headquarters. Seido means the Art of Sincerity.
And the grand master was a Japanese man who was very famous in Japan and he was unique. He was my first true mentor, even a father figure. And what was really unique about him was he was the full money, right? He was an integrated human being, body, mind, soul. And he acted and presented completely different than any other human being I'd ever come across in my life. And I was just absolutely floored and I wanted to taste that. And I found out that he led a Zen class. So not only was he the founder of this martial arts school, had all these incredible powers, I could tell you stories about some of the things I saw him do that you would not believe, right? Not believe. But that, again, inspired me. It showed me that the human being was capable of so much more than we'd been led to believe.
Anyways, I found out about the Zen class and here he is, he's a Zen master masquerading as a karate instructor, and he let me into the Zen class. So at the right page of 21, I started meditation and I never stopped because I found it... Partly because I trusted him so much and I had that container where if I just do what he says, I really believe that it's going to work. And that's really important to have a teacher who has a credible path, Zen being a credible path, for mental and emotional development. And that's what happened, but it happened at a very rapid pace because I was training so hard and so committed. It completely cracked my mind wide open, back to your origin story question, to where suddenly I had these experiences, right?
At first, I was able to settle my mind and focus and concentrate. And then I had this experience of distancing where I became the observer of my thoughts and emotions instead of thinking I am my thoughts and emotions. And that's when I could see that the story that I had been spoonfed growing up in this family and in this culture and everything wasn't my story. It was a story. So for the first time in my life, I started to ask questions, and that led to the dangerous question, "Who am I really?" And that completely changed my life.
Warwick Fairfax:
That was a game changer. And talk a bit about that because you would obviously know this very well, but we often think of the outward journey, but in some senses, the scarier, more important journey is the journey within, who are we? Why are we here?
Mark Divine:
Yeah, it's the most important journey. And the sooner you can get to that, then the sooner you can transform your life. Transformation does not come from the outside, right? That's the world duality of creation and that's where you're supposed to express your inner creativity. But if you're blocked from it, then you're going to be expressing it in ways that'll ultimately trap you. And that's what would have happened with me. So Nakamura taught me how to just slow down and be comfortable sitting in stillness. And it's in stillness that your creative expression and how you're supposed to be in the world is revealed to you. So how that worked for me is once I... You have to be very patient when you start with meditation. There's a lot of people don't succeed because they think it's going to be like I go to the gym and if I work out for three months, I'm going to lose some weight and see some six pack abs. Well, maybe three, maybe six months, maybe a year, and you will.
But with meditation, you don't have objective measures of progress, right? They're subjective. And we're not even taught to know what to look for. What I experienced was this growing sense of ability to just sit there with my thoughts. And at first at a distance where they weren't disturbing me, I didn't need to grab onto them and ride them and create some drama. But even then in abeyance where there was no thinking, but I was completely present and I used the term witnessing, which I later learned was a pretty common term for that experience. And it was in the witnessing moments where I kept getting this sensation bubbling up, and I would say bubbling up from my heart region, that I was a warrior and I was meant to be a warrior.
So I started to have a midlife crisis at 22 years old because I'm like, "How the heck am I supposed to be a warrior if I'm a CPA? That doesn't seem..." I'm not saying there aren't warrior CPAs out there. There probably are, but it didn't seem like the way I was supposed to be a warrior. So then I turned my question around to that. It's like, "If I'm supposed to be a warrior, then how?" And mind you, I wasn't thinking military, right? My father had a very distasteful experience with the military and so he kind of passed that down to me, like military is for people who can't get a real job, for low lives. And he was actually told by a judge, "Because you drove your car into the fraternity house drunk, you can either A, go to jail or B, join the army." He goes, "B, I'll choose B." So he didn't have a great experience with the military.
At any rate, so synchronicity happens when you are asking the right questions and you're not blocking the answers and you're starting to entertain them. So I'm entertaining this idea that I'm a warrior. "How am I supposed to be a warrior?" And then I'm walking home from work in reverie one day pondering this idea and I literally stumble across the Navy recruiting station and there's a poster there and the top of the poster said, "Be someone special." Now that caught my attention because I didn't feel very special based upon how I grew up. But it had Navy SEALs doing really cool shit. And it didn't say anything about the SEALs. It was just a bait and switch poster for the recruiters. But I looked at that, said, "Whoever they are, that's how I'm supposed to be a warrior."
Then long story short, all sorts of cool things happened with me practicing different things like visualization. I ended up getting one of two slots from the civilian world to go to Officer Candidate School to get commissioned and with a direct route to BUD/S, basic underwater demolition SEAL training after that. And so I left New York behind in 1989 with my MBA, my CPA, my first degree black belt in karate, and $100,000 job in 1989, I walked away from it all to be a Navy SEAL. I went through Navy SEAL training in 1990 and completely changed my life. And I guess I feel very fortunate to have discovered my path at such a young age. And it's one of the things I'm very passionate about helping others try to uncover and discover and get aligned because it is the most important thing in your life, I think.
Warwick Fairfax:
So can you imagine an alternate universe, your roommate didn't talk to you about meditation and that dojo that you walked past. And I think of that quote by Thoreau when he talks about people living lives of quiet desperation, that could have been you.
Mark Divine:
That could have been me.
Warwick Fairfax:
Gone back to upstate New York and work for decades in the family of business thinking, "Is this all there is?" I mean, you ever think about that could have been you?
Mark Divine:
Right. And I would have been a fraction of the man that I am today and the whole thing would have been a crucible, right? Because I would have been misaligned and yet not having any understanding of what was wrong, right? So that's where that anxiety builds over years and years and people turn to alcohol, and I would have turned to alcohol because that was the go to for my family. I'm not sure I'd be around today. That's how important it is.
If you don't align with your truth, and that is that underlying overarching reason that you incarnated, which is going to then expose the lessons you're meant to learn as an evolutionary being, then you're just going to have bigger and bigger challenges because the universe is going to try to right you, try to steer the back. And the further off course you get, the more and more challenging it gets, right? This is why people have major breakdowns and life and death accidents and cancer and all that. So the sooner that you can do the inner work, like you said, then the better off you're going to be because you can get on the right track.
Warwick Fairfax:
You have sort of an amazing, amazing journey, that journey of self-discovery and just turning your back. I'm sure at the time you probably had friends and family saying, "You're doing what? You were influenced by who? And you're going to go in the, say it ain't so, military? You're selling out everything we as a family believe in."
Mark Divine:
Yeah. Everything, right? I was throwing everything away. I was walking away from the family, turning my back in the family. My dad sent me a letter and said, "Get the rocks out of your head." All right. So I just had to stay the path and know that eventually they would see, and they did. And they actually came to my graduation. I graduated number one in my class. That's kind of the part of the story of what led me to what I do today is like, I learned so much from Nakamura over those four years and I wanted to continue that. So I continued using the skills, right? Every day, meditation, breath work, the visualization that I first learned from my college swim coach, who was a real pioneer in sports psychology. And I started to teach them to my small team during SEAL training, because you have what's called a boat crew. So I had six other guys with me.
We formed up right before Hell Week when things started to shake out and like 40 people had already quit the class out of 180. And then we went through Hell Week and we were so locked on because I began to teach them these skills that we became indomitable. And we actually secured Hell Week early by six hours and got nice and dry, and we watched the class get hammered for an extra six hours. And then all six of us, seven of us sailed through training. And the end of training, nine months, there were only 19 of us left of the 180 and seven of them were me and my team. So that had such a profound impact on me like, "Okay, I think I want to continue to develop these ideas and then made me someday teach them." And that's exactly what I did.
So when I got off active duty in 1997 or so, I started a company called NavySeals.com. I actually started two companies, right? I was an overachiever. I started the Coronado Brewing Company, which it's a pretty good size microbrewery now. And I got out of that about five years later because my partners were my brothers-in-laws and that didn't go so well, as you can imagine. But I started NavySeals.com and through that, I bought that domain for like $35.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh my gosh.
Mark Divine:
I know. Thinking-
Gary Schneeberger:
That's crazy.
Mark Divine:
... if someone's going to do this, but it should probably be a SEAL. That was my naive thinking. The Navy later on didn't love that I owned it, but they often didn't offer to buy it from me either. They tried to take it from me. I said, "No, that's not how this is going to work." Anyways, so with that platform, I was selling gear, so we had e-commerce. And then I had forums back in the early days of the internet, remember forums? So we had all these training forums and I was giving guidance to include everything I'd learned from Nakamura, nutrition, health, training. And that led to me getting hired by the Navy to mentor Navy SEALs nationwide on a government contract.
Now, this is another one of my crucibles where I had that contract for a year and we just absolutely performed brilliantly. We took the pass rate on the screening test from 30% up to over 87%. We helped improve the quality of the recruit SEALs coming into SEAL training, which over time improved the throughput because we were trying to get more SEALs into the force. But the contract got literally stolen right out from under me by Blackwater USA. You've probably heard of that company.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Mark Divine:
Yeah. They were the yeehaws running around Iraq, killing innocent-
Gary Schneeberger:
Erik Prince.
Mark Divine:
Right, Erik Prince.
Gary Schneeberger:
Erik Prince the owner.
Mark Divine:
He wanted that contract so badly for the PR value because it was a very high profile mentoring Navy SEAL candidates. Anyways, took a $10 million contract, ripped it right out for me. And everyone's saying, "Mark, you got to fight that. That was fraud." And it was. And I said, "No, I'm not going to fight that." I went back to the meditation bench and started asking those questions again. And the answer that came to me is, "You know what? You don't want one client in the US government telling you what you can't do," because they were telling me I can't do the inner domain stuff, "You can't teach these kids visualization, breath work, meditation. You can't do that because we don't have any evidence that it works. What we want you to do is just take them to the pool and beat the shit out of them, make them tough." And we could do that too, but that was not the whole package.
So I decided to launch a business that really kind of sprung out of NavySeals.com and I called it SEALFIT. And I launched a program where these students could come live with me for 30 days at a really cool training center I developed in Encinitas, California that looked like a mini BUD/S compound, mini Navy SEAL training. We trained every morning, every day from like 5:00 AM to 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00, sometimes around the clock every single weekend. We had one day off in 30 days. And that was my Petri dish. And out of that, I developed the 8 Weeks to SEALFIT training regimen, and that book became a New York Times bestseller, and it was used by a lot of the military and law enforcement first responders. And then also the Unbeatable Mind Model, which was all the training of the inner domain. And I wrote a book about that, and then that became a separate company later on. It was an incredibly creative period in my life, and just really extraordinary.
And by the way, I'll end this piece on this, the students that I trained have a 90% success rate getting through Navy SEAL training. It's like upside down from the average Navy SEAL. And they're really... If you get to the front door of BUD/S, you are prepared, right, supposedly. But 90% fail. And the students that I trained, they would get to BUD/S and thrive with a smile on their face and 90% would succeed, which is cool. So the Navy kind of started to take notice and now they're integrating these principles and training into the BUD/S program along with the Air Force and some other special ops programs.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it's amazing what you're saying because one of the things you write about is in your BUD/S class, you mentioned out of 185 candidates, 19 graduated. That's a pretty low percentage, but it may be normal. And as you mentioned, you finished first, but it seems like, as you were saying, I mean, I'm sure everybody that goes in there must be supremely fit athletes, just walking in. So that's a given, otherwise you wouldn't even enter the doorway. But it's that mental toughness. And you give one example of you were at the bottom of the pool and some instructor that I guess was nicknamed Dr. Evil, which I guess kind of says it all, but talk about what you did because a lot of people wouldn't have got out of that dilemma that you're in. But it was your mental toughness that would have enabled you to survive that test.
Mark Divine:
Right. So first off, you're right. Everyone who shows up is physically prepared or else they wouldn't be there. And they're cognitively prepared. Their IQ, they passed a battery of tests and everything. But it's mental and emotional resiliency and your capacity to be an exceptional teammate that will determine whether you get through. Those are tough to measure, right? They're tough to measure. And they can only be exposed in the crucible. BUD/S in itself is a crucible. But then there's many crucibles along the way, Hell Week being the most famous. So Hell Week is six days of nonstop training, around the clock, no sleep.
So give you examples, we had 185. By the time we got the Hell Week, which seven weeks into our training, we had already lost 40, so we're down about 140, 145. And when we got out of Hell Week, we had about 45. And then those 45 whittled down to 19 by the end of the training, which was another five months. Anyways, so this particular incident was another crucible. It's called pool competency, right? So it's designed to test your ability to control your mind and your emotions in one of the most dangerous situations that you can be, which is underwater cut off from an air supply.
So they literally, you go down with a regulator and tanks on your back and it's an old system they use intentionally because it has these two hoses they call it a double hose system. So you get down to the bottom of the deep end of this pool, the combat training tank, which is Navy SEAL speak for pool, and you just kind of hang out, and then suddenly you get attacked, and you get attacked by a Dr. Evil type character, and he literally beats the shit out of you underwater, rips all your gear off, your face mask, your fins, your weight belt, and he rips your tanks off, and then he takes that double hose and he ties into a knot and cuts off all potential for any air. And you just got to wait patiently for him to finish messing with you.
And then when he's done messing with you, a minute or minute and a half into this thing, you've got to find your gear and you got to don your equipment, you got to don it in the right order. And the right order isn't to go for the air first, it's to get your mask on so you can see. And then you go start to work on the tanks, and you try to get this knot undone. And boy, it is not easy, so to speak, to undo a knot underwater when you have all that anxiety of now you're two and a half, three minutes of holding your breath.
So for me, I found it to be much easier than most as a result of the training I had done because my mind was really calm and I had a mantra to maintain that calmness. And I'd been practicing breath work for now five years, so I had a really good lung capacity. And I also could tell when air was really necessary versus just the natural inclination to think, "Oh, I need to breathe." So I was able to hold my breath for a while. But it was the calmness under pressure that was really that made the difference. I literally had to get my foot up there and yank on this regulator. Finally, a little pop of bubble, a couple bubbles came out, a little stream. So instead of keep working, I just put the whole thing in my mouth and let it fill my mouth up and then I swallowed that into my lungs, gave me another 30 seconds.
So those are the types of crucibles that the SEALs would curate for you in a very controlled environment. This is dangerous work, mind you, but they had safety swimmers and people do shallow water blackouts and they'd get them out and they revive them. And I don't think they've had anyone die in that particular evolution. I mean, students have died at BUD/S before because it's extremely dangerous training.
But this is one way, Warwick, that I think that we can talk about crucibles being really beneficial for growth. I have a section in my book, The Way of the Seal, I say, "Bring the challenge to you before it comes to you on its own." So you can do things to curate a safe crucible experience that will give you a tremendous amount of mental, emotional resiliency, a deep awareness and appreciation for what you're really capable of. And as you're enduring the crucible, because you've selected and committed to endure the crucible, you have a growing insight and awareness that question who you really are.
Which is one of the things we did at SEALFIT, we created these 50 hour, 24 hour and 12 hour crucibles, and they were nonstop trainings. So the 50 hour one was world famous because people come from all over the place for it, to get this experience of what is it like to train the hardest training in the world for 50 hours nonstop, no sleep. And the students say there's kind of life before that experience and life after because life after everything that seemed hard is now not hard, right? Things that really used to stress them out, now they have a great distance from and a perspective that that's not a big deal. And that's the benefit of the crucible, right? That's the beyond the crucial. Beyond it, you see, "Oh, it actually was necessary." It was very useful and beneficial, albeit painful, but you have a great sense of gratitude for it.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've just talked, Mark, about just general crucible experiences. The folks who are listening and watching this right now who are not going to go through Navy SEAL training, but how they can apply what you know, what you've learned, what you've practiced. And there's something that you said that I think fits in here for everybody who's listening and viewing. And you said this, "The way you do anything is the way you do everything." How does that apply to average "everyday" crucibles that we go through as it's applied to your own life? You learn that through the experiences you've talked about, but that applies to all of us in our own realms, right?
Mark Divine:
Well, I first heard that in the SEALs, we were fond of saying that, and it was really about paying attention to detail. So if you were someone who didn't really pay attention to their gear and you didn't think it was a big deal because maybe you'd already taped up your gear a couple weeks ago, you didn't need to tape it up for stealthiness this time, or you didn't clean it from yesterday. Well, eventually your gear will fail you. But the reality is, if you're shortchanging your own gear, then where else are you shortchanging your life?
So later on, as I developed an awareness, I took that meaning of the way you do anything is the way you do everything, to be much more about awareness and presence, right? So when you develop greater awareness, which is synonymous with greater presence, then everything, every moment, every interaction, everything you do, you put your full attention to. And because you're giving your full attention, you're giving it everything that you have. And the results that accrue from this are extraordinary because you're not throwing your energy around and thinking you're getting further ahead by multitasking because you're not.
You're not focusing on the wrong things because with growing awareness, you're able to see what's the right thing to focus on. You stop taking on so many commitments because you realize how bogged down and contracted you get when you over commit and you've got too many things, too many resentments that you took this project on or that project or this didn't work or that didn't work. You're not able to let that shit go, because we have claw marks on things that we start and don't want to let go of, to include our businesses or family businesses. So we want to develop this capacity to be very present and discerning with where we put our attention and with the people and the tasks that we take on.
So this is where the warriors principle of simplicity comes in. And I think everyone who's been through a very challenging crucible has It was this experience like, "Wow, life is precious. I don't need to keep on putting points on the board and I don't need to keep on taking on new commitments and distracting myself because everything I have is right here, right now, right in front of me. Everything I need, I mean, is right here right now, right in front of me." And people on their deathbed, they don't go back and say, "I wish I had started more businesses and put more money in the bank." They say is, "I wish I'd spent more time with my family."
Warwick Fairfax:
I want to talk a bit about your latest book, Uncommon. And one of the things I love how you start that book is you have a whole series of statements about what common is. And there's a twist to this after you read it. So you state, "Common is going to business school because dad approves, though your dream is to be a Navy SEAL or become a digital nomad. Common is continuing to eat crappy food because you don't have the time to prepare healthy meals. Common is knowing your relationship isn't going to last but not having the courage to end it. Common is blowing off studying for the kegger, you'll make up the studying the next day. Common is blaming your parents for your less savory qualities rather than taking control of your mind and life to change things for the better. Common is dreaming about becoming an uber successful entrepreneur during your 9:00 to 5:00, yet not taking definitive daily action towards the goal. Common is keeping your mouth shut when you see abuse or injustice because you're afraid to take action. Common is knowing there's an entrepreneur, warrior, artist, teacher, or influencer inside you, that you're too paralyzed by imposter syndrome to pursue it."
And what's amazing after you read it is you say basically, "That was me." And you basically make this statement, which I love, saying is you don't want to be common. You want to lead an uncommon life. And you get to several categories. So talk about, and this is really another way of looking at your whole life's work in a sense, talk about why you don't want to lead that common life. You could have led a common life based on the family business and all that. That would have been Coopers & Lybrand. So talk about what a common life is and why you do not want to lead a common life.
Mark Divine:
Well, first of all, it's not meant to be a judgment, right? Because most people live a common life. What I'm trying to do is distinguish between taking radical responsibility for living the life that you're meant to live. And as I mentioned earlier, our culture does not... And I have Western culture, so Australia, America, probably Europe, structurally, governmental society, systems, and you were part of the media, you know this, it wouldn't be very profitable if everyone was running around free, not needing anybody or anything, not needing any government to control them, not being susceptible to any marketing or subliminal programming or political manipulation. Because ultimately, common is the normal human condition, just living your life.
But that's suffering. I mean, Buddhism tells us that living just the everyday reality and taking it to be real, what they call the dream state, taking it to be real, is the root of suffering. So in that regard, everyone living a common life is living a life of quiet desperation, but they're masking it over and they're drowning with entertainment and constant distraction. But at a deep level, there's this fear and anxiety because they're trying to prop up this ego that says that I am important. I'm special. And yet they're not feeling it. They're not feeling worthy. There's so much shame baked into our culture and that needs to be worked through.
So the first kind of phase of waking up to your uncommonness is to recognize that if you're not training your mind, the world's training it for you, someone's training you for you. And the results will speak for yourself. From the moment you open your eyes as a baby, your mind is being trained and conditioned and formed and shaped, just like molding a piece of clay. But you don't have any agency in that. But you do as an adult, but people they don't claim that agency. They continue to let the mind be conditioned by everything around them. And they get so encrusted or reified into this identity of theirs that they can't see beyond it. And that's common.
So the idea of being uncommon is to wake up from that reality and say, "Screw that. I am going to take charge of gaining clarity on who I am and what I'm supposed to do about it on this plane and to be free." Right? The human spirit craves freedom. It's a constant movement toward freedom inwardly, while outwardly, we constantly move toward further entrapping ourselves. But we are the prison guards of our own prison. And the key is through our mind. So we have to start by training your mind. And in the book, I break it into five sections and I call them the five mountains. These are the five human experience domains that we need to train and then reintegrate to bring them all together into one experience, physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual. And I use the term Kokoro, which means heart, mind, merged into actions.
And the reason I start with physical mountain is that my experience is the body and the mind are not two separate things. It's one thing, right? And so if you try to train your mind without bringing your body into the equation, like they do in the martial arts or traditional yoga, then you're cutting yourself off, you're going to have a disembodied mental development, which is more likely to be enhancing your egoic structures rather than breaking them down. So we've got to get the body really healthy and move the body and develop the ability to control our arousal response to get out of this hyper aroused state of fight or flight that we're all kind of trapped in so that your embodied mind is capable of now going deeper into the inner work through the meditative processes.
And then as we go through the meditative processes and we begin to separate from our thoughts and emotions, we begin to see the patterns that have been driving our reactive behavior, and we begin to objectify those patterns and work on them. We call that emotional development. And a lot of those patterns are trauma informed, meaning that they come from a very young age, or even multi-generational, like alcoholism and the rage of my father's side of the family. So now we're working on the physical, mental, and emotional to try to really, really sharpen our mind, open our mind, use our whole mind to include heart and belly mind. You have neurons, your heart is a brain and your gut is a brain, your entire body, entire nervous system, is part of your brain system. So you bring that online through these training methodologies.
Then it's like opening the aperture on a camera. You begin to perceive more. You stop identifying with the objective so much because the subjective experience becomes richer and richer for you. And your identity shifts from, "I am this body named Mark who has this degree and that degree and was a Navy SEAL," to, "I am, period." Non-personal, total pure subjectivity, "I am." That's what the eye is. But also nested within that bigger eye, that witnessing eye, is this idea that Mark came about and has this mission and is going to fulfill this mission, and so we're going to take care of the body. We're not going to leave it behind in our spiritual or whatever you want to call this awakening journey. We're going to actually bring it along with us and we're going to reenter the world as an uncommon being who's fully awake, fully aware, fully embodied.
And the experience is one of great care and concern for all beings, world-centric care and concern, compassion, open mind, open-heartedness, great clarity around why you're here and what you're meant to do about it. And fear begins to just slip away. Fear and anxiety slip away. So you end up being much calmer. I'm not saying you don't experience all the emotions. Of course you do, but you don't get convinced by them. You don't get caught up in them.
Warwick Fairfax:
I really find this sort of fascinating is that it almost to me, and I'd love you to hear your thoughts, is the ultimate SEAL journey is the journey within. That is the hardest, toughest, it's a lifelong journey. It's easy to tap out at any one point, right? "I've had enough. I'm giving up."
Mark Divine:
Yeah, you're right. I think a lot of people do tap out because I remember in going to a retreat once and the instructor is like, "Yeah, the mind's a dangerous place to go. Don't go in there alone." A lot of people are a little afraid of going in there and seeing what they're going to find because they're going to unroot some unpleasant things and they know that. I went to a seven day kind of emotional development retreat, they took your phone and you had no distractions. They didn't even want you to work out because they didn't want you to stir up all your patterns all the time from distraction, of hiding. And it was pretty extraordinary. But I remember being nervous like, "Do I really want to do this? I'm going to discover who I really am at an inner emotional level. I mean, that's going to be ugly." But it's necessary work, right? And men have trouble with that because they think, "Well, emotions are soft underbelly. We don't go there."
But I think in this world that we're heading into this VUCA world with AI and who knows what's coming even in the next five years, I think the most important thing for all of us, leaders, whether you think you're a leader or not, first of all, everyone's a leader because you have to lead yourself, the most important skill to develop is the ability to sit in silence and to tap into your intuition and in your intuition also lies your creativity. It's an inside game. Creativity and intuition is an inside game. And we don't know if AI will have intuition, but right now it's looking like AI can take everything that their left brain cognitive functions used to do okay and do it better. So what are you going to be left with? Like what's the most human part of you? That beingness that you talked about instead of the doing this. If the doingness is handled by a robot or AI, unless you go into some trade, which is more and more common, the most important work for you is to figure out who are you really? And to bring your gift into the world.
Like you said, I 100% agree with you, Warwick, that everyone has a unique kind of genetic/soul blueprint. There's not a single human that is the same. You might have some twins who look the same, but we know they're all radically different. And part of that is karmic, rebirth energy. Part of that is probably all the conditioning and the actual genetic makeup and DNA. But then there's the part which is actually being driven by that inner voice, that silent inner voice. But if you don't slow down and still yourself to be able to hear that and you crowd it out, then you're going to be much more susceptible to all that imprinting and training and pressure from the outside in the form of friends, family, social media, whatnot, just pulling you in all sorts of directions that aren't good for you.
Warwick Fairfax:
What you're saying is so profound, is that you've got to quiet all the negative voices, whether it's internal or external, because until you do that, you can't hear those whispers. I think in the Old Testament talks about the still small voice of God, that quiet whisper. With all the yelling, you're going to miss it, but you've got to quiet all those voices to be able to hear that eternal whisper that kind of points you forward. And yes, one of the things you're talking about, which I think is so true, certainly as men you're taught to not be vulnerable, vulnerable is weakness, but when you can find friends who you can be vulnerable with and they still like you and says, "Well, okay, I did dumb stuff and I've made mistakes and you're loved unconditionally for who you are," that is sort of a game changer when you find your tribe, you find your team, maybe in your case, your sort of boat crew, in a sense. And I've certainly found that helpful.
But it's hard because again, from my faith perspective, we talk about this dark and light, and most religious traditions talk about that. So like one example for me is, I was privileged to go to Harvard Business School where I'm thinking after my spectacular failure, I can't go to reunion. They'll laugh at me. "Oh yeah, Warwick Fairfax, the guy who blew his upbringing and $2 billion failure," and I just thought that was going to happen, that was the truth, the lies I was hearing. So eventually, a number of years later, I went to a reunion and they weren't like that at all.
Mark Divine:
Of course.
Warwick Fairfax:
Then about five, 10 years ago, I forget how long it was, a friend of mine said, "Hey, Warwick, we've got a number of people in your graduating class of '87. They're going to be talking about some of the challenges and resilience. We'd like you to do five, seven minute talk." And I mentioned that and people couldn't have been more affirming. These are people at the time that sort of maybe late 50s, early 60s, they're either retired or at the pinnacle of their professional careers, CEOs, very successful people, and yet there was acceptance, not judgment. And had all sorts of different cross-sections, probably different beliefs. But from my perspective, the enemy, the lies say, "Oh, you will be rejected if you're vulnerable." And sometimes you will be, but not as often as we think.
So to me, one of the keys I love to hear your thoughts is as you're trying to do this internal voyage of discovery, I'm a great believer that therapy can absolutely be helpful, but you also want to find what we call a team of fellow travelers, people that will be in there with you, that they know you, and they accept you for who you are. Does that make sense? What's your experience?
Mark Divine:
I 100% agree. It's very difficult to do emotional growth alone because it's all about relational. Of course, the first relationship is with yourself. So the deepest work is on your own worthiness. To root out the fears and anxieties that you weren't good enough or worthy or loved. And these happen at a very young age, before object permanence even is developed in the brain. Your mom leaving the room and maybe have an argument with her husband, I mean, that's like death to a child and they take it 100% personally. First of all, the mother isn't in the other room. The mother just disappears because they don't have object permanence. They don't know if she's permanent. So then if she reappears later, that's great for the kid, but for a while she's gone. Might as well be dead. And then to have the trauma of them arguing, right? The kid doesn't have the faculties to say, "Well, it's not my fault. It's not me."
Anyway, so there's not a single human that doesn't grow up with trauma. And it's like my first litmus test when I work with the climate is if they say, "Yeah, I had a perfect childhood." And I'm like, "Mm-hmm. We got a lot of work to do here." These fears and anxieties come with us, and so we got to work on that first. But boy, it's like magnified 10 times over if you can do that in a trusted environment with a small group, not a large group, but a small group of committed fellow journey people. We call that a community of practice. And I find that men tend to work really well in men's groups because there's some things they don't think they can really share fully and openly with women around. But it doesn't have to be. It can be mixed groups that works well too.
And I see more and more of these coming. In fact, I'm part of one that's out of Canada called Longship, which is bringing people together in small teams, very similar to what we did at BUD/S and with the SEALs, like a small team, eight people, probably a good number, and you meet once a month and you have a system and protocol and rules for discussing these really hard things that are going on in our lives and it's a safe place. And what's said there stays there. And I think that's an extremely powerful way to really develop emotional awareness and do some trauma healing. Of course, if you can support that with effective therapy, if you could find a really good therapist, that's also really important. I call it emotional coaching. I asked my clients, these guys that are written, said, "You have no problem getting a fitness coach or a nutritional coach or an executive coach. Why don't you get an emotional coach?" And of course they're like, "Because that would mean I'm broken." I said, "No, no, you're not broken. You're human."
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things we say a lot at Beyond the Crucible is we believe in leading a life of significance, which we define as a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So it's our perspective. I think most major religions would agree with this is that just a hedonistic, "It's all about me and life and success and money and power," I don't know any major religion that believes that will lead toward spirituality, will lead to happiness, long-term fulfillment because humans aren't designed that way. You may not like how we were designed, but it is what it is. You can't alter our fundamental spiritual DNA. We yearn to have a purpose beyond ourselves that somehow helps others and joy and fulfillment come from there. So talk a bit about that, because I imagine you probably dwell on those areas too about life's purpose.
Mark Divine:
Sure. Big time. What's coming up for me is a lot of folks I've worked with are stuck in this idea of legacy, right? And I heard that a little bit with some of your earlier thinking about the family dynasty and whatnot. And the problem with legacy is you're putting your worth on something external objective that you have created or grown or that you're proud of and you're going to get the name on the medical school or the whatever, and people are going to remember you. Well, they won't. They'll know there's a name, but it won't be about you. So all of that serves to strengthen the egoic structure, strengthen your ego.
Whereas service, the idea of your purpose is in service in a unique way, right? And you can use the Ikigai model to help you like, "Okay, what are my most powerful skills? What am I good at? What am I not good at? What do I love? What do I hate? What does the world need?" And then you can begin to zero in on how you can serve. But again, the most important part is not what you do, but who you are.
So I like to use the idea of archetypes. So when I was meditating in the 20s with Nakamura, I didn't have this sense that I was meant to be a Navy SEAL when I was sitting on the meditation bench. That's doing. I had the sense that I was a warrior. That's being. And so the warrior became my dominant archetype, and it's not dominant anymore, but it's still there. It's a close second or third. So everyone's got a couple dominant archetypes. It's really helpful to discern, to uncover those. You can use the Yungian archetypes as an example, or the Enneagram, just online take an Enneagram test and you can find, oh, you're a joker or you're a warrior or you're an alchemist or whatever, a sage. Great. That's a pointer for you. That's how you're supposed to serve. Find something within that energy to allow you to serve and then get your ego out of it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, that sounds you heard folks is the captain has turned on the fast and seatbelt sign indicating we've begun our dissent to land the plane on this conversation. Before we do that though, I would be remiss, Mark, if I did not give you the chance to let listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you and the services you offer through the worldwide web.
Mark Divine:
Thanks so much. Appreciate that. My website is markdivine.com. So you can find pretty much all my training and books and everything there. The podcast is now called The Mark Divine Show. I might change it back to Unbeatable Mind. And I do a lot of great interviews, but mostly I'm starting to do more teaching, just me like teaching one directional. The program, Unbeatable Mind, we work with organizations and corporations and we have some phenomenal tribe and community. Information for that is at unbeatablemind.com. And thanks for letting me share and having the conversation here today. It's been awesome.
Gary Schneeberger:
We're almost done. Warwick always has the right of last question or two. So Warwick, I will flip it back to you to truly land the plane on our conversation today.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, again, Mark, thank you for being here and just what a wonderful conversation. There might be somebody here today that maybe they might feel like today is their worst day. They're thinking of maybe tapping out in one way or the other, even if it's just like, "I'm just going to hide under the covers and just give up on life. I'm just going to wile away the next few decades." What would a word of hope be for somebody that might feel like today is maybe their worst day?
Mark Divine:
Well, metaphor, imagine that you lived in a country, maybe like England where it was cloudy all the time and you lived at the base of a mountain, it's always cloudy, always raining, always depressing. And that's what your life feels like right now. But one day you get inspired to climb that mountain and you climb up and all of a sudden you break through the clouds, you're like, "Holy shit, the sun up here. This has always been here. I've just never seen it because I didn't climb high enough." So recognize that the sun is always there, right?
Your witness, your awareness, your relationship with God, whatever, however you want to talk about it is always there. And the part of you that is feeling like shit is the ego. And they both exist side by side or one nested within the other. So to turn toward the witness and the way to do that is to just sit quietly. And in that immediacy of that moment of being sitting there quietly, you can get the sense that everything is okay and you're having a moment. So don't fight the moment, just let the moment be. Don't mess with it. Just know that you are not that. You are way more than that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word's been spoken on the subject and our guest today, Mark Divine, has indeed spoken it. And he's spoken it the way he's spoken pretty much everything in this episode, with a real catchy calm, I'll call it. It's hard to listen to him talk without feeling like, "Huh."
Well, Warwick, we just had a really interesting conversation with our guest, Mark Divine, and there's a whole lot of stuff that we could pull from that were takeaways. Let's try to pull it down to what's the one takeaway that you hope listeners and viewers get from our conversation with Mark?
Warwick Fairfax:
Mark was a fascinating person, grows up in a small town in upstate New York and has a pretty challenging upbringing. There was some alcoholism and some different things in his family. And he also grew up in a family business background. I think it was generational, like me in a sense. Listeners, I also grew up in a generational family business in Australia. And he was on track to be a CPA, MBA at Coopers & Lybrand, that's a big accounting firm. So his life changes when he walks past this dojo, this martial arts place where he learns meditation. He does this inner journey that he ends up becoming a Navy SEAL and top of his class, number one out of 185 candidates, and now has this whole business movement with SEALFIT, Unbeatable Mind. He's written many books, including his most recent book, Uncommon: Simple Practices for an Extraordinary Life.
And to me, the one takeaway is being a SEAL and graduating through BUD/S is tough, but the toughest journey for him was the inner journey, not the external journey. So he spent his life really understanding who he is, what his passions are, his gifting. It's incredible. He talks in his book Uncommon about themes that we talk about. It's sort of a Japanese construct called the Ikigai chart. Basically it looks at what do you love? What are you good at? What does the world need? And obviously what will they pay for? And the center of all of that. And we talk about that in similar fashion. What is your gifting? We're all inherently wired by God a certain way. What is your passions and beliefs? What do you love to do? How will this serve the world and lead to a life of significance and life on purpose dedicated to serving others?
So we talk about a lot of the same things, maybe in different language, but there's commonality. So I think one of the things that Mark is saying is, you first got to quiet the mind and the soul, just calm your spirit, calm the external voices, the internal voices that are not helpful to begin to hear your own soul, your own spirit about what is it that you want to do. If he hadn't done the soul work, I think he wouldn't have been at a point where walking past that Navy recruiting center that he didn't say, "You know what? This whole warrior motif really seems to be me. And I feel like this is the next step." I'm not sure he knew where that was going to lead precisely. I don't know that he even knew it was going to lead to being a Navy SEAL. Still less all the books that he's written and the work that he's done, which is incredible.
But it's really one of the things he really gets at is just the journey within is the ultimate journey. And we talk about this too, the journey of becoming, not just the external climbing up the ladder. It's like it's sort of meaningless because it doesn't lead to joy and fulfillment. It's that journey within to discover, "What is my purpose? Who am I? Who do I want to be?" He was fortunate to discover that in his 20s, or at least begin on the journey. I, with the family of business, failed when I was in my late 20s and age 30. It took me a few years to begin the journey, but I've also been on that journey for quite a lot of years now. And really, that is the key journey of life. It's the journey within. It's a journey to become, from my perspective, who God intended you to be. It's not the external climb, the corporate ladder. It's not wrong, but the greatest journey, the greatest challenge, the ultimate challenge is the journey within.
That's what Mark Divine has spent a lifetime in, teaching and training others to calm their spirits and to really get in touch with, from my perspective, their divine purpose. Because it's in doing that that your heart begins to sing. It's in doing that, that your life goes from a Thoreau-like world of quiet desperation, a black and white world to a life of full color, living color, if you will, where it doesn't mean you don't have challenges, but you're excited about life, you feel like you're making a difference and then you feel like life has purpose. And yes, you'll have moments of exasperation.
But yet overall, there's a sense of just calmness and a sense of, "I know who I am, I know why I'm here, at least in some sense, and I'm grateful for the journey that I'm on." And you're just living every day with some degree of joy and fulfillment. It doesn't mean there aren't speed bumps. But there's this sense of overall tranquility, even when there are speed bumps that, "I have some idea of why I'm here and I'm using the gifting that I have for a higher purpose." So there's definitely, I felt like there was some commonality between Mark's thinking and writing and what we do here. So it was a fascinating conversation.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And he was one of the most soft-spoken, quiet, calm people we've ever interviewed. In fact, when we're on this side and recording, if we're talking like right now, the box around me is lit up because I'm talking, his box went unlit up so many times. He would speak and then he'd stop. He'd think, his light would go off. I mean, he was just so calm. He really exudes that. I mean, you talked about not wanting a life of quiet desperation. Mark Divine's living a life of quiet erudition. I mean, he really is quietly helping people significantly. And I think that is admirable.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. A frenzied, panic filled spirit is not a good one. A good spirit is one of calmness and joy and a sense of, "I know who I am and I'm doing what I feel called to do." That provides a tranquility of soul and who doesn't want that kind of tranquil soul where there's almost a calm joy. And Mark Divine has it.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, there we go. We know your crucible experiences, folks, are tough. They can be world rattlers. But we also know this, and Mark talked about it in his life, Warwick's talked about it many times on the show, they're not the end of your story. Your crucibles are not the end of the story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles and you apply them as you move forward, it can lead you down the path to the greatest destination you could ever reach, and that destination is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
What does it take to build an unbeatable mind? Former Navy SEAL commander Mark Divine shares powerful lessons on mental toughness, leadership, and peak performance—drawn from elite military training and years of coaching high performers.
In this episode of Beyond the Crucible, Mark breaks down his “Unbeatable Mind” system—a proven framework for developing physical, mental, emotional, intuitive, and spiritual strength. Whether you’re a leader, entrepreneur, or someone seeking personal growth, this conversation will help you unlock your full potential.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
How Navy SEAL training builds elite mental toughness
The 5 pillars of the Unbeatable Mind framework
Practical strategies to strengthen focus, resilience, and leadership
How to perform under pressure and lead with clarity
About Mark Divine: Mark Divine is a former Navy SEAL commander, leadership expert, and founder of Unbeatable Mind. He trains leaders and teams—including the next generation of SEALs—to develop resilience, discipline, and peak performance.
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Mark Divine:
Everyone who shows up is physically prepared or else they wouldn't be there. And they're cognitively prepared. Their IQ, they passed a battery of tests and everything. But it's mental and emotional resiliency and your capacity to be an exceptional teammate that will determine whether you get through. Those are tough to measure, right? They're tough to measure. And they can only be exposed in the crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Mark Divine, discussing what his Navy SEAL training taught him about unlocking human potential through integrated training and mental toughness, leadership, and physical readiness. It's led him to create the Unbeatable Mind System, a framework that integrates physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual development that he now teaches to clients that include the next generation of SEALs.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Mark, it's wonderful to have you here on the podcast. Really appreciate you being on. And just before we get started, I want to read a brief bio, which is, I got to say, very impressive. Dr. Mark Divine, PhD, is a retired Navy SEAL commander, New York Times bestselling author, founder and CEO of SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mind, founder of Multiple Million Dollar Businesses, lifetime martial artist, ashtanga yoga teacher, and host of The Unbeatable Mind Podcast, which was recently rated a number one health podcast, and number 30 overall on iTunes, which is truly impressive.
And just to give folks some background, Mark has written a number of incredible books. We're going to talk a bit about his latest book Uncommon: Simple Practices for an Extraordinary Life, but there are others. And these are incredible titles, Unbeatable Mind: Forge Resiliency and Metal Toughness to Succeed in Elite Level, The Way of the SEAL: Think Like an Elite Warrior to Lead and Succeed. I love this title, Staring Down the Wolf: 7 Leadership Commitments that Forge Elite Teams. I mean, that is... What a title. 8 Weeks to SEALFIT: A Navy SEAL's Guide to Unconventional Training for Physical and Mental Toughness. And Kokoro Yoga: Maximize Your Human Potential to Develop the Spirit of a Warrior.
So I mean, every one of these titles are amazing. We'll get to Uncommon here in a bit. But tell us, Mark, a bit about your backstory. From what I understand, you grew up in a very small town in upstate New York, and your path was going on a certain trajectory, I think, from where you grew up. So talk about what was life like for young Mark and where was your life headed? What was the trajectory that was sort of, I don't know about mapped out for you, but kind of there was a trajectory in place perhaps.
Mark Divine:
Yeah. First, Warwick, thanks for having me on this show. I really appreciate it. It's great to meet you. I'll try to do the condensed version of this story. I can tell it in 45 minutes or five minutes. We'll try the five minute version. Yeah, so upstate New York, Barneveld, 375 people. And that was a little isolating, you might say. But there's a lot of good there too. Just beautiful surroundings, so I got to spend a lot of time outside. And this is pre-internet, pre-cell phones, as you know, we grew up and we had to be creative. And that was good for me because inside the home was a little bit turbulent. My father was pretty much a raging alcoholic and abusive. And my mom, the classic codependent, and I love them to death and forgive them for everything, but it really shut me down.
So I found a lot of solace being out in nature. And that played into me being an endurance athlete because I used to run like a billy goat up and down the Adirondack Mountains. And that was how I found a little bit of peace. Well, I became a pretty good competitive swimmer and I was academically... When that happens, when you grow up in traumatic situations, obviously, then you seek validation externally. So I of course did that as an overachiever. And that was good because that led me to a good university, Colgate University. I was recruited to swim competitively there.
So I did that routine, never once questioning who Mark really is, right? We didn't have that in our cultures, right? Maybe today we do, but you and I growing up, we didn't have mechanisms to question things very well. You just followed the song that was playing in the background. Well, the song that was playing in my background was my... We're a business family. Divines had a business that's over 100 years old, one of the legacy family businesses that survived World War I and World War II, and the boys went back and ran the family business. Well, because I was smart and went to Colgate, I thought, "Well, at least I can try something else en route to that, maybe put some money in the bank." And I followed some of my friends down to New York, got a job with Coopers & Lybrand, which is now Pricewaterhouse, PWC. And it was a program where they sent us to NYU to get our MBA, or MS in accounting, but then I got my MBA.
So I was off to the races, going to climb the corporate ladder, had a great job, was going to be an NBA CPA and all that. Well, what changed for me, the inflection point for me was I got into a martial arts program. I was looking for something additional that was more than sports to help me grow, to help me open up, to help me figure out what the hell was going on. And I had some experience from a college roommate where I watched him evolve through a martial art. I said, "Huh, there's something there." Well, when the student's ready, the teacher or the teachers will appear. And I walked into this studio called World Seido Headquarters. Seido means the Art of Sincerity.
And the grand master was a Japanese man who was very famous in Japan and he was unique. He was my first true mentor, even a father figure. And what was really unique about him was he was the full money, right? He was an integrated human being, body, mind, soul. And he acted and presented completely different than any other human being I'd ever come across in my life. And I was just absolutely floored and I wanted to taste that. And I found out that he led a Zen class. So not only was he the founder of this martial arts school, had all these incredible powers, I could tell you stories about some of the things I saw him do that you would not believe, right? Not believe. But that, again, inspired me. It showed me that the human being was capable of so much more than we'd been led to believe.
Anyways, I found out about the Zen class and here he is, he's a Zen master masquerading as a karate instructor, and he let me into the Zen class. So at the right page of 21, I started meditation and I never stopped because I found it... Partly because I trusted him so much and I had that container where if I just do what he says, I really believe that it's going to work. And that's really important to have a teacher who has a credible path, Zen being a credible path, for mental and emotional development. And that's what happened, but it happened at a very rapid pace because I was training so hard and so committed. It completely cracked my mind wide open, back to your origin story question, to where suddenly I had these experiences, right?
At first, I was able to settle my mind and focus and concentrate. And then I had this experience of distancing where I became the observer of my thoughts and emotions instead of thinking I am my thoughts and emotions. And that's when I could see that the story that I had been spoonfed growing up in this family and in this culture and everything wasn't my story. It was a story. So for the first time in my life, I started to ask questions, and that led to the dangerous question, "Who am I really?" And that completely changed my life.
Warwick Fairfax:
That was a game changer. And talk a bit about that because you would obviously know this very well, but we often think of the outward journey, but in some senses, the scarier, more important journey is the journey within, who are we? Why are we here?
Mark Divine:
Yeah, it's the most important journey. And the sooner you can get to that, then the sooner you can transform your life. Transformation does not come from the outside, right? That's the world duality of creation and that's where you're supposed to express your inner creativity. But if you're blocked from it, then you're going to be expressing it in ways that'll ultimately trap you. And that's what would have happened with me. So Nakamura taught me how to just slow down and be comfortable sitting in stillness. And it's in stillness that your creative expression and how you're supposed to be in the world is revealed to you. So how that worked for me is once I... You have to be very patient when you start with meditation. There's a lot of people don't succeed because they think it's going to be like I go to the gym and if I work out for three months, I'm going to lose some weight and see some six pack abs. Well, maybe three, maybe six months, maybe a year, and you will.
But with meditation, you don't have objective measures of progress, right? They're subjective. And we're not even taught to know what to look for. What I experienced was this growing sense of ability to just sit there with my thoughts. And at first at a distance where they weren't disturbing me, I didn't need to grab onto them and ride them and create some drama. But even then in abeyance where there was no thinking, but I was completely present and I used the term witnessing, which I later learned was a pretty common term for that experience. And it was in the witnessing moments where I kept getting this sensation bubbling up, and I would say bubbling up from my heart region, that I was a warrior and I was meant to be a warrior.
So I started to have a midlife crisis at 22 years old because I'm like, "How the heck am I supposed to be a warrior if I'm a CPA? That doesn't seem..." I'm not saying there aren't warrior CPAs out there. There probably are, but it didn't seem like the way I was supposed to be a warrior. So then I turned my question around to that. It's like, "If I'm supposed to be a warrior, then how?" And mind you, I wasn't thinking military, right? My father had a very distasteful experience with the military and so he kind of passed that down to me, like military is for people who can't get a real job, for low lives. And he was actually told by a judge, "Because you drove your car into the fraternity house drunk, you can either A, go to jail or B, join the army." He goes, "B, I'll choose B." So he didn't have a great experience with the military.
At any rate, so synchronicity happens when you are asking the right questions and you're not blocking the answers and you're starting to entertain them. So I'm entertaining this idea that I'm a warrior. "How am I supposed to be a warrior?" And then I'm walking home from work in reverie one day pondering this idea and I literally stumble across the Navy recruiting station and there's a poster there and the top of the poster said, "Be someone special." Now that caught my attention because I didn't feel very special based upon how I grew up. But it had Navy SEALs doing really cool shit. And it didn't say anything about the SEALs. It was just a bait and switch poster for the recruiters. But I looked at that, said, "Whoever they are, that's how I'm supposed to be a warrior."
Then long story short, all sorts of cool things happened with me practicing different things like visualization. I ended up getting one of two slots from the civilian world to go to Officer Candidate School to get commissioned and with a direct route to BUD/S, basic underwater demolition SEAL training after that. And so I left New York behind in 1989 with my MBA, my CPA, my first degree black belt in karate, and $100,000 job in 1989, I walked away from it all to be a Navy SEAL. I went through Navy SEAL training in 1990 and completely changed my life. And I guess I feel very fortunate to have discovered my path at such a young age. And it's one of the things I'm very passionate about helping others try to uncover and discover and get aligned because it is the most important thing in your life, I think.
Warwick Fairfax:
So can you imagine an alternate universe, your roommate didn't talk to you about meditation and that dojo that you walked past. And I think of that quote by Thoreau when he talks about people living lives of quiet desperation, that could have been you.
Mark Divine:
That could have been me.
Warwick Fairfax:
Gone back to upstate New York and work for decades in the family of business thinking, "Is this all there is?" I mean, you ever think about that could have been you?
Mark Divine:
Right. And I would have been a fraction of the man that I am today and the whole thing would have been a crucible, right? Because I would have been misaligned and yet not having any understanding of what was wrong, right? So that's where that anxiety builds over years and years and people turn to alcohol, and I would have turned to alcohol because that was the go to for my family. I'm not sure I'd be around today. That's how important it is.
If you don't align with your truth, and that is that underlying overarching reason that you incarnated, which is going to then expose the lessons you're meant to learn as an evolutionary being, then you're just going to have bigger and bigger challenges because the universe is going to try to right you, try to steer the back. And the further off course you get, the more and more challenging it gets, right? This is why people have major breakdowns and life and death accidents and cancer and all that. So the sooner that you can do the inner work, like you said, then the better off you're going to be because you can get on the right track.
Warwick Fairfax:
You have sort of an amazing, amazing journey, that journey of self-discovery and just turning your back. I'm sure at the time you probably had friends and family saying, "You're doing what? You were influenced by who? And you're going to go in the, say it ain't so, military? You're selling out everything we as a family believe in."
Mark Divine:
Yeah. Everything, right? I was throwing everything away. I was walking away from the family, turning my back in the family. My dad sent me a letter and said, "Get the rocks out of your head." All right. So I just had to stay the path and know that eventually they would see, and they did. And they actually came to my graduation. I graduated number one in my class. That's kind of the part of the story of what led me to what I do today is like, I learned so much from Nakamura over those four years and I wanted to continue that. So I continued using the skills, right? Every day, meditation, breath work, the visualization that I first learned from my college swim coach, who was a real pioneer in sports psychology. And I started to teach them to my small team during SEAL training, because you have what's called a boat crew. So I had six other guys with me.
We formed up right before Hell Week when things started to shake out and like 40 people had already quit the class out of 180. And then we went through Hell Week and we were so locked on because I began to teach them these skills that we became indomitable. And we actually secured Hell Week early by six hours and got nice and dry, and we watched the class get hammered for an extra six hours. And then all six of us, seven of us sailed through training. And the end of training, nine months, there were only 19 of us left of the 180 and seven of them were me and my team. So that had such a profound impact on me like, "Okay, I think I want to continue to develop these ideas and then made me someday teach them." And that's exactly what I did.
So when I got off active duty in 1997 or so, I started a company called NavySeals.com. I actually started two companies, right? I was an overachiever. I started the Coronado Brewing Company, which it's a pretty good size microbrewery now. And I got out of that about five years later because my partners were my brothers-in-laws and that didn't go so well, as you can imagine. But I started NavySeals.com and through that, I bought that domain for like $35.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh my gosh.
Mark Divine:
I know. Thinking-
Gary Schneeberger:
That's crazy.
Mark Divine:
... if someone's going to do this, but it should probably be a SEAL. That was my naive thinking. The Navy later on didn't love that I owned it, but they often didn't offer to buy it from me either. They tried to take it from me. I said, "No, that's not how this is going to work." Anyways, so with that platform, I was selling gear, so we had e-commerce. And then I had forums back in the early days of the internet, remember forums? So we had all these training forums and I was giving guidance to include everything I'd learned from Nakamura, nutrition, health, training. And that led to me getting hired by the Navy to mentor Navy SEALs nationwide on a government contract.
Now, this is another one of my crucibles where I had that contract for a year and we just absolutely performed brilliantly. We took the pass rate on the screening test from 30% up to over 87%. We helped improve the quality of the recruit SEALs coming into SEAL training, which over time improved the throughput because we were trying to get more SEALs into the force. But the contract got literally stolen right out from under me by Blackwater USA. You've probably heard of that company.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Mark Divine:
Yeah. They were the yeehaws running around Iraq, killing innocent-
Gary Schneeberger:
Erik Prince.
Mark Divine:
Right, Erik Prince.
Gary Schneeberger:
Erik Prince the owner.
Mark Divine:
He wanted that contract so badly for the PR value because it was a very high profile mentoring Navy SEAL candidates. Anyways, took a $10 million contract, ripped it right out for me. And everyone's saying, "Mark, you got to fight that. That was fraud." And it was. And I said, "No, I'm not going to fight that." I went back to the meditation bench and started asking those questions again. And the answer that came to me is, "You know what? You don't want one client in the US government telling you what you can't do," because they were telling me I can't do the inner domain stuff, "You can't teach these kids visualization, breath work, meditation. You can't do that because we don't have any evidence that it works. What we want you to do is just take them to the pool and beat the shit out of them, make them tough." And we could do that too, but that was not the whole package.
So I decided to launch a business that really kind of sprung out of NavySeals.com and I called it SEALFIT. And I launched a program where these students could come live with me for 30 days at a really cool training center I developed in Encinitas, California that looked like a mini BUD/S compound, mini Navy SEAL training. We trained every morning, every day from like 5:00 AM to 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00, sometimes around the clock every single weekend. We had one day off in 30 days. And that was my Petri dish. And out of that, I developed the 8 Weeks to SEALFIT training regimen, and that book became a New York Times bestseller, and it was used by a lot of the military and law enforcement first responders. And then also the Unbeatable Mind Model, which was all the training of the inner domain. And I wrote a book about that, and then that became a separate company later on. It was an incredibly creative period in my life, and just really extraordinary.
And by the way, I'll end this piece on this, the students that I trained have a 90% success rate getting through Navy SEAL training. It's like upside down from the average Navy SEAL. And they're really... If you get to the front door of BUD/S, you are prepared, right, supposedly. But 90% fail. And the students that I trained, they would get to BUD/S and thrive with a smile on their face and 90% would succeed, which is cool. So the Navy kind of started to take notice and now they're integrating these principles and training into the BUD/S program along with the Air Force and some other special ops programs.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it's amazing what you're saying because one of the things you write about is in your BUD/S class, you mentioned out of 185 candidates, 19 graduated. That's a pretty low percentage, but it may be normal. And as you mentioned, you finished first, but it seems like, as you were saying, I mean, I'm sure everybody that goes in there must be supremely fit athletes, just walking in. So that's a given, otherwise you wouldn't even enter the doorway. But it's that mental toughness. And you give one example of you were at the bottom of the pool and some instructor that I guess was nicknamed Dr. Evil, which I guess kind of says it all, but talk about what you did because a lot of people wouldn't have got out of that dilemma that you're in. But it was your mental toughness that would have enabled you to survive that test.
Mark Divine:
Right. So first off, you're right. Everyone who shows up is physically prepared or else they wouldn't be there. And they're cognitively prepared. Their IQ, they passed a battery of tests and everything. But it's mental and emotional resiliency and your capacity to be an exceptional teammate that will determine whether you get through. Those are tough to measure, right? They're tough to measure. And they can only be exposed in the crucible. BUD/S in itself is a crucible. But then there's many crucibles along the way, Hell Week being the most famous. So Hell Week is six days of nonstop training, around the clock, no sleep.
So give you examples, we had 185. By the time we got the Hell Week, which seven weeks into our training, we had already lost 40, so we're down about 140, 145. And when we got out of Hell Week, we had about 45. And then those 45 whittled down to 19 by the end of the training, which was another five months. Anyways, so this particular incident was another crucible. It's called pool competency, right? So it's designed to test your ability to control your mind and your emotions in one of the most dangerous situations that you can be, which is underwater cut off from an air supply.
So they literally, you go down with a regulator and tanks on your back and it's an old system they use intentionally because it has these two hoses they call it a double hose system. So you get down to the bottom of the deep end of this pool, the combat training tank, which is Navy SEAL speak for pool, and you just kind of hang out, and then suddenly you get attacked, and you get attacked by a Dr. Evil type character, and he literally beats the shit out of you underwater, rips all your gear off, your face mask, your fins, your weight belt, and he rips your tanks off, and then he takes that double hose and he ties into a knot and cuts off all potential for any air. And you just got to wait patiently for him to finish messing with you.
And then when he's done messing with you, a minute or minute and a half into this thing, you've got to find your gear and you got to don your equipment, you got to don it in the right order. And the right order isn't to go for the air first, it's to get your mask on so you can see. And then you go start to work on the tanks, and you try to get this knot undone. And boy, it is not easy, so to speak, to undo a knot underwater when you have all that anxiety of now you're two and a half, three minutes of holding your breath.
So for me, I found it to be much easier than most as a result of the training I had done because my mind was really calm and I had a mantra to maintain that calmness. And I'd been practicing breath work for now five years, so I had a really good lung capacity. And I also could tell when air was really necessary versus just the natural inclination to think, "Oh, I need to breathe." So I was able to hold my breath for a while. But it was the calmness under pressure that was really that made the difference. I literally had to get my foot up there and yank on this regulator. Finally, a little pop of bubble, a couple bubbles came out, a little stream. So instead of keep working, I just put the whole thing in my mouth and let it fill my mouth up and then I swallowed that into my lungs, gave me another 30 seconds.
So those are the types of crucibles that the SEALs would curate for you in a very controlled environment. This is dangerous work, mind you, but they had safety swimmers and people do shallow water blackouts and they'd get them out and they revive them. And I don't think they've had anyone die in that particular evolution. I mean, students have died at BUD/S before because it's extremely dangerous training.
But this is one way, Warwick, that I think that we can talk about crucibles being really beneficial for growth. I have a section in my book, The Way of the Seal, I say, "Bring the challenge to you before it comes to you on its own." So you can do things to curate a safe crucible experience that will give you a tremendous amount of mental, emotional resiliency, a deep awareness and appreciation for what you're really capable of. And as you're enduring the crucible, because you've selected and committed to endure the crucible, you have a growing insight and awareness that question who you really are.
Which is one of the things we did at SEALFIT, we created these 50 hour, 24 hour and 12 hour crucibles, and they were nonstop trainings. So the 50 hour one was world famous because people come from all over the place for it, to get this experience of what is it like to train the hardest training in the world for 50 hours nonstop, no sleep. And the students say there's kind of life before that experience and life after because life after everything that seemed hard is now not hard, right? Things that really used to stress them out, now they have a great distance from and a perspective that that's not a big deal. And that's the benefit of the crucible, right? That's the beyond the crucial. Beyond it, you see, "Oh, it actually was necessary." It was very useful and beneficial, albeit painful, but you have a great sense of gratitude for it.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've just talked, Mark, about just general crucible experiences. The folks who are listening and watching this right now who are not going to go through Navy SEAL training, but how they can apply what you know, what you've learned, what you've practiced. And there's something that you said that I think fits in here for everybody who's listening and viewing. And you said this, "The way you do anything is the way you do everything." How does that apply to average "everyday" crucibles that we go through as it's applied to your own life? You learn that through the experiences you've talked about, but that applies to all of us in our own realms, right?
Mark Divine:
Well, I first heard that in the SEALs, we were fond of saying that, and it was really about paying attention to detail. So if you were someone who didn't really pay attention to their gear and you didn't think it was a big deal because maybe you'd already taped up your gear a couple weeks ago, you didn't need to tape it up for stealthiness this time, or you didn't clean it from yesterday. Well, eventually your gear will fail you. But the reality is, if you're shortchanging your own gear, then where else are you shortchanging your life?
So later on, as I developed an awareness, I took that meaning of the way you do anything is the way you do everything, to be much more about awareness and presence, right? So when you develop greater awareness, which is synonymous with greater presence, then everything, every moment, every interaction, everything you do, you put your full attention to. And because you're giving your full attention, you're giving it everything that you have. And the results that accrue from this are extraordinary because you're not throwing your energy around and thinking you're getting further ahead by multitasking because you're not.
You're not focusing on the wrong things because with growing awareness, you're able to see what's the right thing to focus on. You stop taking on so many commitments because you realize how bogged down and contracted you get when you over commit and you've got too many things, too many resentments that you took this project on or that project or this didn't work or that didn't work. You're not able to let that shit go, because we have claw marks on things that we start and don't want to let go of, to include our businesses or family businesses. So we want to develop this capacity to be very present and discerning with where we put our attention and with the people and the tasks that we take on.
So this is where the warriors principle of simplicity comes in. And I think everyone who's been through a very challenging crucible has It was this experience like, "Wow, life is precious. I don't need to keep on putting points on the board and I don't need to keep on taking on new commitments and distracting myself because everything I have is right here, right now, right in front of me. Everything I need, I mean, is right here right now, right in front of me." And people on their deathbed, they don't go back and say, "I wish I had started more businesses and put more money in the bank." They say is, "I wish I'd spent more time with my family."
Warwick Fairfax:
I want to talk a bit about your latest book, Uncommon. And one of the things I love how you start that book is you have a whole series of statements about what common is. And there's a twist to this after you read it. So you state, "Common is going to business school because dad approves, though your dream is to be a Navy SEAL or become a digital nomad. Common is continuing to eat crappy food because you don't have the time to prepare healthy meals. Common is knowing your relationship isn't going to last but not having the courage to end it. Common is blowing off studying for the kegger, you'll make up the studying the next day. Common is blaming your parents for your less savory qualities rather than taking control of your mind and life to change things for the better. Common is dreaming about becoming an uber successful entrepreneur during your 9:00 to 5:00, yet not taking definitive daily action towards the goal. Common is keeping your mouth shut when you see abuse or injustice because you're afraid to take action. Common is knowing there's an entrepreneur, warrior, artist, teacher, or influencer inside you, that you're too paralyzed by imposter syndrome to pursue it."
And what's amazing after you read it is you say basically, "That was me." And you basically make this statement, which I love, saying is you don't want to be common. You want to lead an uncommon life. And you get to several categories. So talk about, and this is really another way of looking at your whole life's work in a sense, talk about why you don't want to lead that common life. You could have led a common life based on the family business and all that. That would have been Coopers & Lybrand. So talk about what a common life is and why you do not want to lead a common life.
Mark Divine:
Well, first of all, it's not meant to be a judgment, right? Because most people live a common life. What I'm trying to do is distinguish between taking radical responsibility for living the life that you're meant to live. And as I mentioned earlier, our culture does not... And I have Western culture, so Australia, America, probably Europe, structurally, governmental society, systems, and you were part of the media, you know this, it wouldn't be very profitable if everyone was running around free, not needing anybody or anything, not needing any government to control them, not being susceptible to any marketing or subliminal programming or political manipulation. Because ultimately, common is the normal human condition, just living your life.
But that's suffering. I mean, Buddhism tells us that living just the everyday reality and taking it to be real, what they call the dream state, taking it to be real, is the root of suffering. So in that regard, everyone living a common life is living a life of quiet desperation, but they're masking it over and they're drowning with entertainment and constant distraction. But at a deep level, there's this fear and anxiety because they're trying to prop up this ego that says that I am important. I'm special. And yet they're not feeling it. They're not feeling worthy. There's so much shame baked into our culture and that needs to be worked through.
So the first kind of phase of waking up to your uncommonness is to recognize that if you're not training your mind, the world's training it for you, someone's training you for you. And the results will speak for yourself. From the moment you open your eyes as a baby, your mind is being trained and conditioned and formed and shaped, just like molding a piece of clay. But you don't have any agency in that. But you do as an adult, but people they don't claim that agency. They continue to let the mind be conditioned by everything around them. And they get so encrusted or reified into this identity of theirs that they can't see beyond it. And that's common.
So the idea of being uncommon is to wake up from that reality and say, "Screw that. I am going to take charge of gaining clarity on who I am and what I'm supposed to do about it on this plane and to be free." Right? The human spirit craves freedom. It's a constant movement toward freedom inwardly, while outwardly, we constantly move toward further entrapping ourselves. But we are the prison guards of our own prison. And the key is through our mind. So we have to start by training your mind. And in the book, I break it into five sections and I call them the five mountains. These are the five human experience domains that we need to train and then reintegrate to bring them all together into one experience, physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual. And I use the term Kokoro, which means heart, mind, merged into actions.
And the reason I start with physical mountain is that my experience is the body and the mind are not two separate things. It's one thing, right? And so if you try to train your mind without bringing your body into the equation, like they do in the martial arts or traditional yoga, then you're cutting yourself off, you're going to have a disembodied mental development, which is more likely to be enhancing your egoic structures rather than breaking them down. So we've got to get the body really healthy and move the body and develop the ability to control our arousal response to get out of this hyper aroused state of fight or flight that we're all kind of trapped in so that your embodied mind is capable of now going deeper into the inner work through the meditative processes.
And then as we go through the meditative processes and we begin to separate from our thoughts and emotions, we begin to see the patterns that have been driving our reactive behavior, and we begin to objectify those patterns and work on them. We call that emotional development. And a lot of those patterns are trauma informed, meaning that they come from a very young age, or even multi-generational, like alcoholism and the rage of my father's side of the family. So now we're working on the physical, mental, and emotional to try to really, really sharpen our mind, open our mind, use our whole mind to include heart and belly mind. You have neurons, your heart is a brain and your gut is a brain, your entire body, entire nervous system, is part of your brain system. So you bring that online through these training methodologies.
Then it's like opening the aperture on a camera. You begin to perceive more. You stop identifying with the objective so much because the subjective experience becomes richer and richer for you. And your identity shifts from, "I am this body named Mark who has this degree and that degree and was a Navy SEAL," to, "I am, period." Non-personal, total pure subjectivity, "I am." That's what the eye is. But also nested within that bigger eye, that witnessing eye, is this idea that Mark came about and has this mission and is going to fulfill this mission, and so we're going to take care of the body. We're not going to leave it behind in our spiritual or whatever you want to call this awakening journey. We're going to actually bring it along with us and we're going to reenter the world as an uncommon being who's fully awake, fully aware, fully embodied.
And the experience is one of great care and concern for all beings, world-centric care and concern, compassion, open mind, open-heartedness, great clarity around why you're here and what you're meant to do about it. And fear begins to just slip away. Fear and anxiety slip away. So you end up being much calmer. I'm not saying you don't experience all the emotions. Of course you do, but you don't get convinced by them. You don't get caught up in them.
Warwick Fairfax:
I really find this sort of fascinating is that it almost to me, and I'd love you to hear your thoughts, is the ultimate SEAL journey is the journey within. That is the hardest, toughest, it's a lifelong journey. It's easy to tap out at any one point, right? "I've had enough. I'm giving up."
Mark Divine:
Yeah, you're right. I think a lot of people do tap out because I remember in going to a retreat once and the instructor is like, "Yeah, the mind's a dangerous place to go. Don't go in there alone." A lot of people are a little afraid of going in there and seeing what they're going to find because they're going to unroot some unpleasant things and they know that. I went to a seven day kind of emotional development retreat, they took your phone and you had no distractions. They didn't even want you to work out because they didn't want you to stir up all your patterns all the time from distraction, of hiding. And it was pretty extraordinary. But I remember being nervous like, "Do I really want to do this? I'm going to discover who I really am at an inner emotional level. I mean, that's going to be ugly." But it's necessary work, right? And men have trouble with that because they think, "Well, emotions are soft underbelly. We don't go there."
But I think in this world that we're heading into this VUCA world with AI and who knows what's coming even in the next five years, I think the most important thing for all of us, leaders, whether you think you're a leader or not, first of all, everyone's a leader because you have to lead yourself, the most important skill to develop is the ability to sit in silence and to tap into your intuition and in your intuition also lies your creativity. It's an inside game. Creativity and intuition is an inside game. And we don't know if AI will have intuition, but right now it's looking like AI can take everything that their left brain cognitive functions used to do okay and do it better. So what are you going to be left with? Like what's the most human part of you? That beingness that you talked about instead of the doing this. If the doingness is handled by a robot or AI, unless you go into some trade, which is more and more common, the most important work for you is to figure out who are you really? And to bring your gift into the world.
Like you said, I 100% agree with you, Warwick, that everyone has a unique kind of genetic/soul blueprint. There's not a single human that is the same. You might have some twins who look the same, but we know they're all radically different. And part of that is karmic, rebirth energy. Part of that is probably all the conditioning and the actual genetic makeup and DNA. But then there's the part which is actually being driven by that inner voice, that silent inner voice. But if you don't slow down and still yourself to be able to hear that and you crowd it out, then you're going to be much more susceptible to all that imprinting and training and pressure from the outside in the form of friends, family, social media, whatnot, just pulling you in all sorts of directions that aren't good for you.
Warwick Fairfax:
What you're saying is so profound, is that you've got to quiet all the negative voices, whether it's internal or external, because until you do that, you can't hear those whispers. I think in the Old Testament talks about the still small voice of God, that quiet whisper. With all the yelling, you're going to miss it, but you've got to quiet all those voices to be able to hear that eternal whisper that kind of points you forward. And yes, one of the things you're talking about, which I think is so true, certainly as men you're taught to not be vulnerable, vulnerable is weakness, but when you can find friends who you can be vulnerable with and they still like you and says, "Well, okay, I did dumb stuff and I've made mistakes and you're loved unconditionally for who you are," that is sort of a game changer when you find your tribe, you find your team, maybe in your case, your sort of boat crew, in a sense. And I've certainly found that helpful.
But it's hard because again, from my faith perspective, we talk about this dark and light, and most religious traditions talk about that. So like one example for me is, I was privileged to go to Harvard Business School where I'm thinking after my spectacular failure, I can't go to reunion. They'll laugh at me. "Oh yeah, Warwick Fairfax, the guy who blew his upbringing and $2 billion failure," and I just thought that was going to happen, that was the truth, the lies I was hearing. So eventually, a number of years later, I went to a reunion and they weren't like that at all.
Mark Divine:
Of course.
Warwick Fairfax:
Then about five, 10 years ago, I forget how long it was, a friend of mine said, "Hey, Warwick, we've got a number of people in your graduating class of '87. They're going to be talking about some of the challenges and resilience. We'd like you to do five, seven minute talk." And I mentioned that and people couldn't have been more affirming. These are people at the time that sort of maybe late 50s, early 60s, they're either retired or at the pinnacle of their professional careers, CEOs, very successful people, and yet there was acceptance, not judgment. And had all sorts of different cross-sections, probably different beliefs. But from my perspective, the enemy, the lies say, "Oh, you will be rejected if you're vulnerable." And sometimes you will be, but not as often as we think.
So to me, one of the keys I love to hear your thoughts is as you're trying to do this internal voyage of discovery, I'm a great believer that therapy can absolutely be helpful, but you also want to find what we call a team of fellow travelers, people that will be in there with you, that they know you, and they accept you for who you are. Does that make sense? What's your experience?
Mark Divine:
I 100% agree. It's very difficult to do emotional growth alone because it's all about relational. Of course, the first relationship is with yourself. So the deepest work is on your own worthiness. To root out the fears and anxieties that you weren't good enough or worthy or loved. And these happen at a very young age, before object permanence even is developed in the brain. Your mom leaving the room and maybe have an argument with her husband, I mean, that's like death to a child and they take it 100% personally. First of all, the mother isn't in the other room. The mother just disappears because they don't have object permanence. They don't know if she's permanent. So then if she reappears later, that's great for the kid, but for a while she's gone. Might as well be dead. And then to have the trauma of them arguing, right? The kid doesn't have the faculties to say, "Well, it's not my fault. It's not me."
Anyway, so there's not a single human that doesn't grow up with trauma. And it's like my first litmus test when I work with the climate is if they say, "Yeah, I had a perfect childhood." And I'm like, "Mm-hmm. We got a lot of work to do here." These fears and anxieties come with us, and so we got to work on that first. But boy, it's like magnified 10 times over if you can do that in a trusted environment with a small group, not a large group, but a small group of committed fellow journey people. We call that a community of practice. And I find that men tend to work really well in men's groups because there's some things they don't think they can really share fully and openly with women around. But it doesn't have to be. It can be mixed groups that works well too.
And I see more and more of these coming. In fact, I'm part of one that's out of Canada called Longship, which is bringing people together in small teams, very similar to what we did at BUD/S and with the SEALs, like a small team, eight people, probably a good number, and you meet once a month and you have a system and protocol and rules for discussing these really hard things that are going on in our lives and it's a safe place. And what's said there stays there. And I think that's an extremely powerful way to really develop emotional awareness and do some trauma healing. Of course, if you can support that with effective therapy, if you could find a really good therapist, that's also really important. I call it emotional coaching. I asked my clients, these guys that are written, said, "You have no problem getting a fitness coach or a nutritional coach or an executive coach. Why don't you get an emotional coach?" And of course they're like, "Because that would mean I'm broken." I said, "No, no, you're not broken. You're human."
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things we say a lot at Beyond the Crucible is we believe in leading a life of significance, which we define as a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So it's our perspective. I think most major religions would agree with this is that just a hedonistic, "It's all about me and life and success and money and power," I don't know any major religion that believes that will lead toward spirituality, will lead to happiness, long-term fulfillment because humans aren't designed that way. You may not like how we were designed, but it is what it is. You can't alter our fundamental spiritual DNA. We yearn to have a purpose beyond ourselves that somehow helps others and joy and fulfillment come from there. So talk a bit about that, because I imagine you probably dwell on those areas too about life's purpose.
Mark Divine:
Sure. Big time. What's coming up for me is a lot of folks I've worked with are stuck in this idea of legacy, right? And I heard that a little bit with some of your earlier thinking about the family dynasty and whatnot. And the problem with legacy is you're putting your worth on something external objective that you have created or grown or that you're proud of and you're going to get the name on the medical school or the whatever, and people are going to remember you. Well, they won't. They'll know there's a name, but it won't be about you. So all of that serves to strengthen the egoic structure, strengthen your ego.
Whereas service, the idea of your purpose is in service in a unique way, right? And you can use the Ikigai model to help you like, "Okay, what are my most powerful skills? What am I good at? What am I not good at? What do I love? What do I hate? What does the world need?" And then you can begin to zero in on how you can serve. But again, the most important part is not what you do, but who you are.
So I like to use the idea of archetypes. So when I was meditating in the 20s with Nakamura, I didn't have this sense that I was meant to be a Navy SEAL when I was sitting on the meditation bench. That's doing. I had the sense that I was a warrior. That's being. And so the warrior became my dominant archetype, and it's not dominant anymore, but it's still there. It's a close second or third. So everyone's got a couple dominant archetypes. It's really helpful to discern, to uncover those. You can use the Yungian archetypes as an example, or the Enneagram, just online take an Enneagram test and you can find, oh, you're a joker or you're a warrior or you're an alchemist or whatever, a sage. Great. That's a pointer for you. That's how you're supposed to serve. Find something within that energy to allow you to serve and then get your ego out of it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, that sounds you heard folks is the captain has turned on the fast and seatbelt sign indicating we've begun our dissent to land the plane on this conversation. Before we do that though, I would be remiss, Mark, if I did not give you the chance to let listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you and the services you offer through the worldwide web.
Mark Divine:
Thanks so much. Appreciate that. My website is markdivine.com. So you can find pretty much all my training and books and everything there. The podcast is now called The Mark Divine Show. I might change it back to Unbeatable Mind. And I do a lot of great interviews, but mostly I'm starting to do more teaching, just me like teaching one directional. The program, Unbeatable Mind, we work with organizations and corporations and we have some phenomenal tribe and community. Information for that is at unbeatablemind.com. And thanks for letting me share and having the conversation here today. It's been awesome.
Gary Schneeberger:
We're almost done. Warwick always has the right of last question or two. So Warwick, I will flip it back to you to truly land the plane on our conversation today.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, again, Mark, thank you for being here and just what a wonderful conversation. There might be somebody here today that maybe they might feel like today is their worst day. They're thinking of maybe tapping out in one way or the other, even if it's just like, "I'm just going to hide under the covers and just give up on life. I'm just going to wile away the next few decades." What would a word of hope be for somebody that might feel like today is maybe their worst day?
Mark Divine:
Well, metaphor, imagine that you lived in a country, maybe like England where it was cloudy all the time and you lived at the base of a mountain, it's always cloudy, always raining, always depressing. And that's what your life feels like right now. But one day you get inspired to climb that mountain and you climb up and all of a sudden you break through the clouds, you're like, "Holy shit, the sun up here. This has always been here. I've just never seen it because I didn't climb high enough." So recognize that the sun is always there, right?
Your witness, your awareness, your relationship with God, whatever, however you want to talk about it is always there. And the part of you that is feeling like shit is the ego. And they both exist side by side or one nested within the other. So to turn toward the witness and the way to do that is to just sit quietly. And in that immediacy of that moment of being sitting there quietly, you can get the sense that everything is okay and you're having a moment. So don't fight the moment, just let the moment be. Don't mess with it. Just know that you are not that. You are way more than that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Friends, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word's been spoken on the subject and our guest today, Mark Divine, has indeed spoken it. And he's spoken it the way he's spoken pretty much everything in this episode, with a real catchy calm, I'll call it. It's hard to listen to him talk without feeling like, "Huh."
Well, Warwick, we just had a really interesting conversation with our guest, Mark Divine, and there's a whole lot of stuff that we could pull from that were takeaways. Let's try to pull it down to what's the one takeaway that you hope listeners and viewers get from our conversation with Mark?
Warwick Fairfax:
Mark was a fascinating person, grows up in a small town in upstate New York and has a pretty challenging upbringing. There was some alcoholism and some different things in his family. And he also grew up in a family business background. I think it was generational, like me in a sense. Listeners, I also grew up in a generational family business in Australia. And he was on track to be a CPA, MBA at Coopers & Lybrand, that's a big accounting firm. So his life changes when he walks past this dojo, this martial arts place where he learns meditation. He does this inner journey that he ends up becoming a Navy SEAL and top of his class, number one out of 185 candidates, and now has this whole business movement with SEALFIT, Unbeatable Mind. He's written many books, including his most recent book, Uncommon: Simple Practices for an Extraordinary Life.
And to me, the one takeaway is being a SEAL and graduating through BUD/S is tough, but the toughest journey for him was the inner journey, not the external journey. So he spent his life really understanding who he is, what his passions are, his gifting. It's incredible. He talks in his book Uncommon about themes that we talk about. It's sort of a Japanese construct called the Ikigai chart. Basically it looks at what do you love? What are you good at? What does the world need? And obviously what will they pay for? And the center of all of that. And we talk about that in similar fashion. What is your gifting? We're all inherently wired by God a certain way. What is your passions and beliefs? What do you love to do? How will this serve the world and lead to a life of significance and life on purpose dedicated to serving others?
So we talk about a lot of the same things, maybe in different language, but there's commonality. So I think one of the things that Mark is saying is, you first got to quiet the mind and the soul, just calm your spirit, calm the external voices, the internal voices that are not helpful to begin to hear your own soul, your own spirit about what is it that you want to do. If he hadn't done the soul work, I think he wouldn't have been at a point where walking past that Navy recruiting center that he didn't say, "You know what? This whole warrior motif really seems to be me. And I feel like this is the next step." I'm not sure he knew where that was going to lead precisely. I don't know that he even knew it was going to lead to being a Navy SEAL. Still less all the books that he's written and the work that he's done, which is incredible.
But it's really one of the things he really gets at is just the journey within is the ultimate journey. And we talk about this too, the journey of becoming, not just the external climbing up the ladder. It's like it's sort of meaningless because it doesn't lead to joy and fulfillment. It's that journey within to discover, "What is my purpose? Who am I? Who do I want to be?" He was fortunate to discover that in his 20s, or at least begin on the journey. I, with the family of business, failed when I was in my late 20s and age 30. It took me a few years to begin the journey, but I've also been on that journey for quite a lot of years now. And really, that is the key journey of life. It's the journey within. It's a journey to become, from my perspective, who God intended you to be. It's not the external climb, the corporate ladder. It's not wrong, but the greatest journey, the greatest challenge, the ultimate challenge is the journey within.
That's what Mark Divine has spent a lifetime in, teaching and training others to calm their spirits and to really get in touch with, from my perspective, their divine purpose. Because it's in doing that that your heart begins to sing. It's in doing that, that your life goes from a Thoreau-like world of quiet desperation, a black and white world to a life of full color, living color, if you will, where it doesn't mean you don't have challenges, but you're excited about life, you feel like you're making a difference and then you feel like life has purpose. And yes, you'll have moments of exasperation.
But yet overall, there's a sense of just calmness and a sense of, "I know who I am, I know why I'm here, at least in some sense, and I'm grateful for the journey that I'm on." And you're just living every day with some degree of joy and fulfillment. It doesn't mean there aren't speed bumps. But there's this sense of overall tranquility, even when there are speed bumps that, "I have some idea of why I'm here and I'm using the gifting that I have for a higher purpose." So there's definitely, I felt like there was some commonality between Mark's thinking and writing and what we do here. So it was a fascinating conversation.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And he was one of the most soft-spoken, quiet, calm people we've ever interviewed. In fact, when we're on this side and recording, if we're talking like right now, the box around me is lit up because I'm talking, his box went unlit up so many times. He would speak and then he'd stop. He'd think, his light would go off. I mean, he was just so calm. He really exudes that. I mean, you talked about not wanting a life of quiet desperation. Mark Divine's living a life of quiet erudition. I mean, he really is quietly helping people significantly. And I think that is admirable.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true. A frenzied, panic filled spirit is not a good one. A good spirit is one of calmness and joy and a sense of, "I know who I am and I'm doing what I feel called to do." That provides a tranquility of soul and who doesn't want that kind of tranquil soul where there's almost a calm joy. And Mark Divine has it.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, there we go. We know your crucible experiences, folks, are tough. They can be world rattlers. But we also know this, and Mark talked about it in his life, Warwick's talked about it many times on the show, they're not the end of your story. Your crucibles are not the end of the story. In fact, if you learn the lessons of those crucibles and you apply them as you move forward, it can lead you down the path to the greatest destination you could ever reach, and that destination is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
