How do we train our brains, hearts and souls to dial into gratitude? That’s the ground we cover today as we look at Warwick’s latest blog — How to Tap Into the Life Changing Power of Gratitude.
We explore seven steps that will help you focus more regularly on being grateful. And, as a bonus, we also discuss the physical, psychological and social benefits of living from an attitude of gratitude.
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Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. We need to train our brains, our hearts, even our souls, to dwell on gratitude. So gratitude will help give us energy and power to move us forward, which we all want to do, especially when we've had a crucible. We want to move forward. We want to move beyond it. And gratitude, it helps us power us forward to a more positive outlook on life that will actually help us lives of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
How do we train our brains, hearts and souls to dial into gratitude? That's the ground we cover today as we look into Warwick's latest blog, how to tap into the Life-Changing Power of Gratitude? We explore seven steps that will help you focus more regularly on being grateful. And as a bonus, we also discuss the physical, psychological, and social benefits of living with an attitude of gratitude. Welcome folks, to another episode of Beyond the Crucible, and this is one of the fun ones. Well, they're all fun ones, let's be honest. But this is one of those Warwick, that we discuss your most recent blog at Beyondthecrucible.com. And you felt very strongly about this one. You chose the topic from several ideas you thought about over this summer that just now as we're recording this, ended just two days ago. So let's start off by how I always begin episodes like this where we're going over one of your blogs, and that is, what led you to write this blog, which is titled How to Tap Into the Life-Changing Power of Gratitude? What was it that made that what you had to write about this month?
Warwick Fairfax:
Life is not easy, and it's normal and understandable for our minds to drift to things that are challenging. We can think of everything that's gone wrong, what's going wrong now, what's gone wrong in the past, what will go wrong in our lives in the future. We often think of, "Oh, I hope this doesn't happen. Oh, I've got a terrible feeling about this coming meeting, or this family Thanksgiving or Christmas." We can just drift into all of the things that we're worried about, or I don't know, there could be cutbacks at work and I got a bad feeling about it. So you mind drift, everything that has gone wrong, is going wrong, will go wrong. And then we drift into thinking about people that have hurt us. People that have let us down. Maybe it's at work, maybe friends, maybe family. And then we can think of the mistakes we've made. "Gosh, boy, that was so stupid. Why did I do that?"
And then we just certainly, I do this quite a bit, almost this endless of just, "Why did I do that? That was just not smart. I wish I hadn't." I know we can get into almost this endless negative, depressing cycle of thoughts and one feeds on another that we have this almost doom loop, this flywheel of negativity. One bad thought leads to another and off we go. So it's understandable that we have these negative thoughts because life is not easy. But we have to ask ourselves, how does this serve us? And the answer is, it doesn't. To move forward in our lives and bounce back from our worst day, our crucibles to a more fulfilling life, which we call a life of significance. We need to train our brains to think differently. We need to train our brains to think of more positive, indeed helpful thoughts.
And this is not a natural thing. Our brains tend to go to the negativity, to the current in front of us, to cut us off, or that bad meeting that we just came out of, or challenges at home. That's all very natural. It's not natural to start thinking of positive thoughts, but we need to train our brains, our hearts, even our souls to dwell on gratitude. So gratitude will help give us energy and power to move us forward, which we all want to do, especially when we've had a crucible. We want to move forward, we want to move beyond it. And gratitude helps us power us forward to a more positive outlook on life that will actually help us live lives of significance. And it's interesting as I think about the origin story of this discussion. Yes, I've been thinking of a lot of things over the summer when we do the summer movie series, and we do that in advance like we've mentioned.
So there's still things to do, but it's not quite the same pace. So being a reflective person, lots of ideas percolate in my brain. And so there was one time towards the end of the summer, where we are in Northern Michigan is about an hour away from the nearest airport. And I'm dropping my oldest son off at the airport. It's about an hour drive. And so after I've dropped him off, I have, as I mentioned, an hour's drive back to where we are. And that goes along the shores of Lake Michigan. And so it's summer. And so you can see the sun glimmering in the water. You've got these beautiful trees and small towns. It's a very beautiful, restful drive. And so here I am, I'm in the car for a while, it's just me. And on the spur of the moment, without some plan, I just think about gratitude. And it wasn't some big plan. I just thought, "I'm going to spend the rest of this drive, which is an hour, thinking about everything I was grateful for in life." It wasn't some plan. I thought, "Okay, let's start, see what happens."
And so I did. And just like with thoughts of negativity, one thought can lead to another. Thoughts of positivity, gratitude, one thought can lead to another. So just to give you an idea, I'm a person of faith. So I started with faith. And so I started thinking about, "Wow, I remember when faith, in my case, faith in Christ became important in my life." It was at an evangelical Anglican church at Oxford University where I went, St Aldates was the church. I remember thinking about the friend who invited me to church and I said no a few times, but eventually came. I think about the Anglican retreat on the Devon coast of England, Lee Abbey, which was an Oxford-Cambridge retreat. And I began thinking about the walks along the cliffs, and the countryside, and the afternoons, and singing choruses and Christian choruses and listening to testimonies and sermons. And I'm thinking about how wonderful that was.
And I drifted, time in New York when I lived there in a couple churches I was in there and that life group. And I think about back in Australia and some people that were very helpful during those challenging times with the takeover in the family media business. And think about the church I go to now, and I'm blessed to be an elder there. So I got pretty specific. And so then I drifted to other thoughts, to family. So I started with faith and then I went to family. I think of my wife, Gail, who we've been married over 35 years, and how blessed I am. I think of my three adult kids, will, Gracie, and Robbie, what a blessing they are. I think of meaningful work that I have. So I think it doesn't have to be this way, but I think often for many of us when we're thinking about gratitude or indeed prayer, we can break it down in faith, or beliefs, values, whatever that means to you. Faith, family, work, just big categories.
And in terms of work, I think of all the things we do at Beyond the Crucible, and the wonderful team I have and how much I love what we do. I think of the nonprofits I've been involved in, such as being an elder at my church. And for many years I was on the board of my kids' school, which is a Christian school. So the bottom line is, by the end of that drive, I was feeling incredibly grateful, incredibly blessed and uplifted. I was in a good mood after an hour thinking of how blessed I am in each of these areas of my life. And again, it was an hour, so I went into a lot of detail, faith, family, work. And that whole exercise, which was unplanned, reminded me of how important it is to be positive, and how important it is to be grateful because it's not natural to do what I did, to think about all the wonderful things that have blessed your life. We just tend to go to the negative and ignore the positive.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and it's interesting because you talk about the intentionality of that, and I have my own origin story a little bit on, and I'll talk about some more of it later, but here's one of them right here. It's a book called The Little Book of Gratitude that I have, and I just go through it periodically. And one of the things that's interesting, because you said at the end of that drive, you felt great. There's a physical feeling that comes with that. Well, one of the things that I've found for a while now in this book, the Little Book of Gratitude, is that there's a PhD named Robert Evans who is one of the world's leading authorities on gratitude. He's a professor of psychology at the University of California Davis. And he has enumerated some, and I'm not going to go through all of them, but he's enumerated some of the physical, and emotional, and mental benefits, the true benefits of gratitude.
Here's just a few of the things. Physical well-being, stronger immune systems for those who lean into gratitude, lower blood pressure, sleep longer, and feel more refreshed upon waking. Hallelujah for that. There's psychological well-being he also talks about, higher levels of positive emotions. We all would benefit from that for sure. More joy and pleasure. Who doesn't want that? Who doesn't want more joy or pleasure? And Robert Evans says that when you lean into gratitude, when you find and dig into those things that you're grateful for, that's what can come up. And then I'll just mention social well-being, more forgiving. Well, my goodness, we talk about forgiveness all the time here at Beyond the Crucible.
So if you have gratitude for the things in your life that are good, for the people in your life that are good, that bless you, that can make you more forgiving, and that can help you get beyond your crucible. And less loneliness and more outgoing. So those are just some of the things, Little Book of Gratitude that Robert Evans talks about. But Warwick, I'm interested, what's your reaction to these physical, emotional, mental areas of well-being that can come from being what you've just talked about, what we're talking about here, and that's gratitude?
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things I talk about is these so-called Blue Zones in different parts of the world where you've got people that live longer, and Mediterranean and different places, and they analyze, well why? And some of it makes sense. They have a great diet like in the Mediterranean, it's more of a Mediterranean diet, pasta, vegetables, fruit, nuts, what have you. They have a circle of friends that they spend time with. They have some connection to faith, higher power or something like that. And they're naturally positive people. The glass is half full. They just have this sunny disposition and surprise, they live longer. Well, that research, if you will, is cross-currents with Robert Evans research, which is having this attitude of gratitude, having this sense of positivity, it is beneficial in every area of your life, physical, psychological, social. So it makes sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
And folks, if you want to have those psychological, those physical health benefits, here we go. We're going to go into Warwick's blog now. And I know you'll be surprised like I was when I first read the blog that Warwick has, wait for it, seven points in his blog. It's funny, Warwick, I always build our runs of show, the things that we're going to talk about off the previous episode. And the last time we did this before the summer series, you had nine. I almost fell over when I remembered that you had nine points, but we have seven this time. So let's run through those points in all seriousness, because they are good ones. They are points that will help you folks find, tap into, locate your gratitude. And the first one is this, pause the anger and grievance cycle. Talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
So we have to stop the flywheel of doom and negativity, because it's normal for that to be a flywheel, one thought leads to another and off you go. You've got to stop that endless cycle of negativity, of recriminations for what you've done wrong and what was done to you. You've got to just pray, pause, meditate, and just pray, look to a higher power just for strength to just, let me pause and stop. Let me just clear my mind, be still, maybe it's take a walk in the woods. Whatever it takes to just clear your mind. Maybe it's just doing something that would take your mind off it. Maybe you're a painter, maybe you like to make things in your shop, just different woodworking, whatever it takes. Find a way, be it prayer, meditation or things to take your mind off it to a positive direction. Find a way to pause the anger and grievance cycle, because you can't move forward in a positive direction until you stop what can feel like an endless cycle of thoughts of negativity.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and it's interesting that you mentioned artists, someone who might be a painter. Because I was thinking as you were saying that, this step, pause, the anger and grievance cycle is like starting is like wiping your slate clean, wiping your palette clean, what you're going to paint on, giving yourself a canvas to paint something on. And your second point is when you begin the painting process. And your second point is this, think of at least one thing you're grateful for. One thing you can paint on that palette. So talk about why that's so important.
Warwick Fairfax:
Now, this might feel like on your worst days, almost impossible. It's like, "What could I possibly be grateful for? I've been betrayed, I've made some horrific decisions. My business is going under, I've just got fired. I've been grateful. What could there possibly be to be grateful for?" But typically there's at least one thing. Maybe it's a spouse, a partner, maybe it's a child, a friend, a parent. Maybe it's a friend at school. Maybe it's just being grateful for some of the abilities you have. Maybe you're athletic, or artistic, or maybe you just have this love of learning and reading. Think of one thing that you're grateful for, and for people of faith, it could be broader. It could be just being thankful for having God in your lives. It's interesting as I thought about, what's one thing it could be grateful for? Actually, my mind drifted, being reflective, back our summer movie series and Rudy. And you remember, and you can tell our friends here, but Rudy grew up in this working class neighborhood, Indiana, not far from Chicago.
And he wanted to play football at Notre Dame, which being at the time, a senior of high school, just out of it was like an impossible dream. Everybody was very negative. Everybody's almost laughed at him. But he had this friend at the steel mill where he worked after high school, and this one friend kept encouraging him, and he gave him a Notre Dame jacket where he wanted to play. So I guess the point of the story is, if you ask Rudy what's one thing or one person you can be grateful for, probably the first thing he would say is, "My friend at the mill." Other than that, what are you grateful for? Well, he'd probably be hard perhaps to think of anything at that point in his life, if that makes sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, for sure. That's a very great example of if you just look around, if you do a 360, if you look, you'll find it. It's there. I think our experience tells us that. And the experience of the guests we've had on the show tells us that. And the experience of the people we know in our lives tells us that. This quote I'm about to read from the Little Book of Gratitude tells us that too. This is from someone named Alphonse Carr. Alphonse Carr said this, I love this. "Some people are because roses have thorns." He said, "I am thankful. I am thankful that thorns have roses." Sometimes the way to find gratitude is to just change your perspective, to look at something in a different way. That's a fair way to do it. Don't look at it in the way that leads you to feel, "I'm on the bad end of this." Switch around, change your perspective, find the good end. That's a pretty good kernel of wisdom, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It is, maybe you wanted to go outside and have a run and it's raining. It's like God, really, and it's not a massive crucible, but rather than saying that, it's like, "Well, at least my grass will grow and the flowers will get watered." And rain can be just refreshing. And anything in life you can look at negatively, on the other hand, you can look at it positively. Maybe it's Thanksgiving and you got some challenging family members coming. It's like, "Well, okay, maybe it's an opportunity to reset. Maybe I can think of something I can be grateful for them, and maybe it's going to be an opportunity where I can encourage that crusty, incorrigible uncle that I have. That's always a pain. Let me think of something positive about him and I'm going to think of a way to reset this time. So your attitude going into things makes a huge difference.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I'm a little spooked, Warwick, that you brought up raining when you want to go running. Do you ever tap into my ring doorbell? Because that's exactly what's going on in Wisconsin today as we're talking. So I'm not going to be able to run at least outside because it's raining. But enough about that. Let's go to the third point in your blog and the third point in your blog is this, begin to create categories of things and people you are grateful for. Why is that the next good and logical step to build gratitude?
Warwick Fairfax:
So part of this is, you're trying to set up a flywheel of hope. You're trying to set up a flywheel of gratitude. And so to do that, it takes a few steps. Because often it's not easy to go from negativity to positivity. And so even if you've paused the anger and grievance cycle, if you're not careful, it's almost like being on a steep hill. You can start slipping. And so it's good to think of not just one thing from my perspective, but just think of a bunch of things. You think of your family. You can think of parents, spouse, partner, kids, friends, people you've known different times of your life, co-workers. It could be relationships you have now, it could be in the past. Think of the work you do. Maybe there are some things you can think of that you are grateful for. Think of the gifts and abilities that you have.
So it helps before getting into a deep dive to think of the categories. And I think one easy way to think of it, you could break it down into three broad categories, faith, family, work. It could be more than that. You could call it beliefs, family, work, and you could add on activities and hobbies. But a good place to start is with those three, you can always expand, faith, family, work. And so now you've got three categories or more to mine from. So you might be thinking, "Okay, what's one thing I can think of in each area?" one thing leads to another. But having categories helps you move from one thing to more than one thing.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good stuff. Folks, we are talking about Warwick's latest blog, which is called How to Tap into the Life-Changing Power of Gratitude. We are on step four to build that, to find that life-Changing power of gratitude. And step four is this, spend time in each of these categories and go into some detail. So you've got the categories, you've built them, now you lean into them, now you really spend time ruminating on them, exploring them, unpacking them. Talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
So for me as a person of faith, on that drive back from the airport dropping my son off, that hour drive back, I started with faith as I mentioned. I got into some detail about where I came to faith in Christ. It's an old Evangelical Anglican church at Oxford, and just that student retreat center on the Devon Coast, Lee Abbey. But I didn't stop there. I thought of after that I worked in New York on Wall Street for about three years, and I began to think about a couple of churches I went to and life group that I was in that was so helpful. I think about back during my takeover years back in Australia, growing up in the family media business. And obviously for more on that, it's in other blogs, podcasts, and on the website. But suffice it to say it was very challenging.
I think about just a circle of friends, some, my age, some older that really came onside me, prayed with me, and incredibly valuable. And I think about the church I'm involved in now in Annapolis, Bay Area Community church where I'm an elder and the group of friends I have there. So that's just one strand, a faith strand. I went there during that drive, all these different elements throughout my life. And I did the same thing about my family. I did the same thing about work. So just going through every area of your life that you can think of and one thought leads to another, it can make you very grateful. I was thinking about not just what we do on the podcast, but some of the things that I was involved in in both the school, I was on the board of an [inaudible 00:23:46] Christian School, and we would work on governance and a strategic plan. I was heavily involved in both, and governance and various other things. And being an elder at my church, Bay Area Community Church.
I went into some detail about being grateful to have an opportunity to use my gifts and abilities in organizations that I deeply cared about. And I felt grateful for the opportunity to serve, and use my abilities to help the organizations and ultimately people that I cared about. So that just gives you an illustration of how gratitude in all areas of your life, relationships, the skills and abilities you have, the people that have been so helpful to you, it can just fill you with gratitude and positivity, if you let your mind run in a positive way.
Gary Schneeberger:
And as always with these blog episodes Warwick, you've built them step by step by step. So what you just said, if you just let your mind lead you in a positive way, well the next point that you make in the blog is where the rubber will continue to meet the road. And that's this, commit to being grateful on a regular basis. So we've taken up until now what we've described as low-risk probes, small steps. Now is the chance to sort of make this a lifetime commitment. So why is commit to being grateful on a regular basis critical to what you're talking about in this blog?
Warwick Fairfax:
So think of it like diet and exercise. Exercising once a year doesn't do a whole lot of good. You've got to have a regular pattern. I think people would say ideally several times a week. And it's very much like gratitude. If you've got to find a system, and it might be difficult at first, I'd say every day find time to take at least a few minutes to be grateful. You don't have to do what I did for an hour. I just happened to be in the car. It was a beautiful drive back along Lake Michigan, when we were there in Northern Michigan during the summer. But we can find a few minutes to think of at least one thing or more that we're grateful for. And what you might find is, those few minutes might turn into longer. Maybe you've got a 40-minute commute to work every day.
So rather than just listening to a podcast, of course if it's this podcast, then by all means listen to a podcast. But let's say you've listened to a podcast, ideally this one, either on your way to work or on the way back. Okay, you've got another half of the journey to do something other than listen to music, podcasting or what have you. And that's 40 minutes you can think of things you're grateful for. You are in the car, you have to be in the car. It is the way it is. So there's usually some time that we have during the day that we can allocate to being grateful.
And again, don't feel like you've got to start out with 40 minutes, the length of your commute. It can be just one or two things, but being regular and consistent with being grateful is very helpful. Because when you do that, you'll find that your attitude to life will begin to change. You'll be more positive. You'll look at life being the glass half full, not half empty. So it's a discipline. It's something that you've got to do every day, at least in some case you can't just think, "Okay, I was grateful three months ago." It's got to be on a regular basis. Find a way to do it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Well, and I'm going to share my way to do it that I found, and this is a gratitude journal, and it's a three-year gratitude journal, which is cool because it has three years of dates. You go through it, and you just write at the end of the day, it's one line a day it says here, I usually write longer than that. That's just me. But it allows me to go through, review the day I've just lived and find things that I'm grateful for. So I'm just going to rip this open right now and see, "Oh, June 15th, there we go." And this is funny, and this is a good one. Look at that. Thank you lord. June 15th of this year, 2025, I wrote this, the Father's Day gift Kelly, my wife, bought me is divine, a necklace with Heather's, Alissa's and Hunter's my kids, birthstones.
And then a great time with the McKissick's, that's Kelly's family, and the Resch's, that's also Kelly's family, at our house tonight. So it was just, that was what happened on that day. And before I go to bed, I pull this out, I write this down. But here's another point I want to make about doing this every day, because there's an important, when you every night stop and say, "Here's what I'm grateful for." Not everything that happened in your day that day is something you're grateful for. You're sifting through it and you're pointing out what you're grateful for. And I want to specifically go to this one, April 3rd of this year, just to show how this can work. Well, here's my entry of what I'm grateful for on April 3rd, to show that things that are great that you are grateful for and things that can be painful, can happen on the same day. But what do you lean into?
So here's what I wrote on the 3rd of April this year, 2025. Laura, my stepmother died today. So glad I got to talk to her yesterday. And then after that comes this. We also celebrated Hunter, my son's 25th birthday, smiley face. That's one of those situations where something really traumatic happens, but you can find something to be grateful for in the context of that. I got to talk to my stepmom the day before she passed away, and then we got to celebrate my son's birthday that same day. So it's not that when you talk about being grateful, Warwick, it's not that you're saying you have to be grateful, or you should be grateful, or you're going to be grateful for everything that happens. It's finding those things that you can be grateful for in the context of whatever happens, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Boy, that's so well said, and that's such a good example, both of them. But obviously losing your stepmother, that's a tragedy. That's just a huge thing to deal with. But obviously there's grieving, there's mourning, but there's also being thankful for the person that she was, and what she meant to you in your life. Even on her worst days, you, Gary found a way to be grateful. Doesn't mean there wasn't grieving and pain, of course, I'm sure it was an excruciating day. But yet you wanted amidst all the pain and devastation you want to think of, well, what's something that I can be grateful for about my stepmom? And be grateful for Hunter's 25th birthday? So it's an excellent example, and I think what that is really saying, and I think it's worth noting, there are different ways of doing it, but I think we should really consider what Gary is doing in which he has a gratitude journal.
And the advantage of writing it down, is that you can look back at previous days, like you just did, June 15, April 3rd. And it doesn't mean you have to do that every day. Thinking of something you're grateful for every day, we believe is very helpful. But by writing it down, it's like there's been a lot of positive things that have happened this year. Who knew? Now, would you remember what happened on February 4th if you didn't look it up, what you're grateful for? Probably not. But by having it there, you could say, "Well, I wonder what happened." It would remind you maybe something positive happened. Gary's looking it up right now.
Gary Schneeberger:
I am.
Warwick Fairfax:
I just picked a random date.
Gary Schneeberger:
Keep talking for a second, Warwick, I've got to find it here really quickly. I have to get my February 24th. There we go. February 4th. February 4th, February 10th, February 4th. Where are you? February 4th. All right, here we go. What am I grateful for on February 4th? The Fantastic Four trailer, the movie for The Fantastic Four, the Fantastic Fourth trailer dropped today. That's what happened on February 4th, I was grateful for.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, if you don't know, Gary's a big fan of superheroes, and I certainly like it too. And so Fantastic Four, it's a fun movie. And yeah, it makes sense that you're grateful for that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, it was my favorite comic book as a kid. So to see that on the big screen done right was great. So that was perfect, thank you for picking that date. That reminds me now.
Warwick Fairfax:
So yeah, I don't do it quite as in an organized fashion, but I think we could all learn from Gary. For me, one of the things I do every evening is before I go to sleep, I have a time of prayer. Typically, in the evening, I have bible study, reflection, some people will do it in the morning, but I do it in the evenings. But as I'm about to go to sleep, in fact, my head's on the pillow at this point, I start doing some scripture memory. I just have done this for a number of years. I've got a set scriptures that I go through, but then I also, in addition to prayer, do some thoughts of being thankful.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. All right, that was point five, folks. Here is point six. Point six is this. Find a place where being grateful is easier. And Warwick's indicated a couple of times that he's talked about his sometimes on drive, sometimes when you have a little solitude, you can do it. So Warwick, what's the importance of this point in the blog?
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's say you're in rush hour traffic, or you're on a freeway and there's an accident that's going to keep you stuck for about two hours, or you've missed your flight at the airport and the airport is shutting down. That could be a time when you want to think of how I can be grateful for being stuck in the airport for three hours, but it's better than the doom loop of negativity. But in terms of a normal rhythm of being grateful, let's make it easy for ourselves. And so find a place where you can be grateful. It could be a walk in the woods, maybe it's a walk in the neighborhood. If you have a nice drive to work, which is probably not too many people, then great. It could be in a museum. It could be just in the ambiance of your favorite coffee shop. Maybe there's somewhere you go for a few minutes, or you take a break at lunch or what have you and you love the smells, the sounds in that place.
Think of a place where being grateful is easier, and then spend a few minutes, or maybe it's 15, 20 minutes, however long you have. But the right place can make being grateful easier. If you are taking a walk in the woods, which we did a lot of, I did certainly when we were in Northern Michigan, if it's just me, which often I'll be walking with family or my wife, but sometimes it's just me. I'll have music on, I'll have my AirPods in and I'll be listening to, sometimes it'll be worship music, sometimes it'll be classical music. And listening to your favorite, for instance, piece of classical music as you're walking through the woods, now you're really primed to be grateful. You just ease back. You're in the mood at that point to be grateful. So find a way and a place that makes being grateful easier.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right, folks, we're about to hit the last point of how you tap into the life-changing power of gratitude, Warwick's blog. Here's the last point, and really Warwick, this could be the last point of pretty much everything we talk about beyond the crucible, as you're walking out your life of significance, as you're trying to bounce back from your crucible. And the last point is this, don't give up, because it's not going to be easy. Talk about why that is important, why that ability to keep at it, to not giving up, why that is so critical in this particular instance when it comes to being grateful.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's go back to that analogy of exercise. You've just run for the first time in years, or you've gone on an exercise bike, or whatever it happens to be, and it feels like it's almost killed you. It's like, "I can't believe that, and I'm not doing that again. That's just too hard. I mean, I'm so out of shape and oh my gosh, after five minutes I collapsed. I mean, it was awful." And I get that. But with exercise, do it a few times a week and you find, "Okay, it was still difficult, but it went from almost impossible to merely difficult." Then maybe goes to painful. Then it goes to, "It wasn't too bad. And okay, I can do this." It might take you months to get there, but step at a time. And so really with being grateful, think of it as, don't give up. It's easy to be negative, but what you've got to think of is, what's one thing that I've been grateful for?
It may not be easy, but what's one thing? Just start small and then think, "Okay." And if you have to kind of make it a routine, think of, "Okay, several times a week, I'm going to set aside a time where I'm going to be grateful." And often if it's a commute to work, then you know you're going to be in the car or the train or what have you, and set aside at least part of that time to be grateful. Find a time and a place where you're going to do this. And ideally, as Gary has said, document it, write it down, make a note in your phone, or there's different ways of doing it. But it might be hard at first. You start off with one thing, one person you can be grateful for and then expand that. But you've got to do it regularly. You've got to do it often and don't give up. It will get easier if you keep up. It will get easier if you keep doing it.
Gary Schneeberger:
And here's a good time to do it. This is another quote from the Little Book of Gratitude. I'll do one more quote. This is Ralph Waldo Emerson said this, Warwick. He said, "I awoke this morning with devout Thanksgiving." Love that phrase, devout Thanksgiving, for my friends, the old and the new. Maybe it's the morning. There's an example. He wakes up in the morning and he's grateful for his friends. That could be something just simple, a simple way to start. And we have finished, speaking of starting, we have finished this episode of Beyond the Crucible about Warwick's blog. But before we absolutely finish, we finished going through all the points. I need to ask Warwick an important question, because we've covered a lot of ground here. So Warwick, before we let folks go, what's the one takeaway, the one truth you hope that everybody walks away with from our discussion about your blog on gratitude?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's natural to think of everything that is going wrong in life, that has gone wrong and will go wrong. And it's normal for many, if not most of us. It's not just think of one thing. It may be not easy to think of more than one thing that you're grateful for. It is very easy to think of many, many things that we're not grateful for, that we're angry and bitter, if not maybe even depressed about. It's very easy, you just let your mind go. Or you could spend 40 minutes in a heartbeat about things that you're angry and that you're grumbling about. We don't need to give lessons on that. It's very, very easy to do. And that's our brains naturally do that. And so while it's natural and understandable, clearly it's not helpful. You want to bounce back from your worst day, your crucible to a more fulfilling life, a life of significance, that doesn't happen if you're endlessly weighed down by this doom loop of negativity. It's understandable, but it's not helpful.
So one of the things we say often at Beyond the Crucible, is life is about choices. We need to make a choice. We've said so many times, it might be your worst day, and you're feeling so bad about yourself, or angry about what was done to you, and you don't want to get out of bed. You've got to make a choice to get out of bed and take one positive step forward. We say that in so many different episodes. This is the same way of thinking. We have to make a choice. We need to make a choice to stop the endless cycle of dwelling on disappointments, and the endless cycle of being angry about people who have let us down or betrayed you. We've talked elsewhere extensively about forgiveness. That's one way of stopping that doom loop of just saying, "I will choose to forgive."
That's at least one helpful step to try to stop the endless doom loop of negativity, and anger, and resentment of people that have let you down or hurt you. So you've got to make a choice that I will refuse to keep dwelling on the negativity. Doesn't mean I condone the bad things that were done to me, or the poor choices maybe my boss or others at work have made. But you make a choice not to dwell on the disappointment and the negativity. And then we need to shift. We need to pause. Seek the Lord or whoever you believe is up there, the creator, to just clear your mind, clean the slate, clean the canvas, and begin to think of what we're grateful for. Think of one thing. And that gratefulness needs to be done in a disciplined, regular way like we would take exercise.
If you do that, eventually your disposition in life will shift from being more negative to being more positive. You start with one thing, expand from there, and find a time and a place to do it on a regular basis. Your outlook on life will change. And I think you'll find that not just your outlook on life will change, but your ability to move forward from your worst day to a more fulfilling life and crucible to a life of significance. The pace will quicken. It will get easier to where you want to get to a more fulfilling life, a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good place to end our discussion portion of this. As we always do though, folks, Warwick has come up with, and it's interesting, I didn't realize this when I first read the blog, I always say reflection questions at the end of the blog. And these aren't questions. This time Warwick has written some reflection statements, and I'm going to read them to you so that you can reflect on them on this subject. How to tap into the life-changing power of gratitude, which is Warwick's latest blog at Beyondthecrucible.com. First one is this, stop dwelling on anger and negative emotions. Take time to pray and meditate to clear your mind, your heart, and your soul from these thoughts that are pulling you down. Thought number one for reflection.
The second point of reflection is this. Start thinking of people and things you're grateful for. The list might feel small at first, but dig deep and expand the list as time goes on. His last point in the blog was don't give up. Don't give up if you're going through this reflection. Point number two, keep pressing through because it'll come. And then the third reflection point is this. Find the time and a place to be grateful regularly and be disciplined about it. Being grateful will get easier the more it becomes a new ingrained habit and discipline.
And that folks, I'm grateful for the fact that that has wrapped another, I believe, very insightful and inspiration packed episode of the Beyond the Crucible podcast. So until the next time we're together, please remember that Warwick and I know that your crucibles are hard, they're difficult. There are things that you're maybe not grateful for, that you're certainly not grateful for, at least 360 not grateful for. But we also know they're not the end of your story. And that if you learn the lessons from them, those things that you can be grateful for within them, and you apply them moving forward, the destination that you will be led on, the destination you will walk, the path you'll travel will be one that will end in the greatest place you can be, and that is in a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit Beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Life is not easy. Left to their own devices, our minds tend to drift to everything that has gone wrong and is going wrong in our lives. We think of people who have hurt us and let us down. How could they do that to us?
We think of our career that might not be where we want it to be, or a job we have lost. We think of health challenges or loved ones who have passed away. Life seems to be so unfair. As we reflect on everything that has gone wrong in our lives, and the tumult, division and brokenness in the world, it is easy to get frustrated, angry and even depressed.
But how does this help us bounce back from our worst day, our crucible? It doesn’t. To move forward in our lives, to in some way use the brokenness we feel to help others and live a life of significance, we need to think differently. We need to in some sense rewire our brain and be more disciplined about what we let our mind dwell on. Thinking about all the hurts we feel and see around us rarely serves us.
So what is the alternative? We need to train our brains, indeed our hearts and our souls, to dwell on gratitude. This will fill us with joy and the energy to move past our cruciblers and into a life of significance. Some might say they have so much pain and tragedy in their lives that it is impossible to be grateful. That is understandable. But what is remarkable is that almost every guest on our podcast, Beyond The Crucible, many of whom have gone through incredibly painful setbacks and tragedies, have found a way to be grateful. That sense of gratitude has helped to chart the way forward and given them energy and perspective to not only keep going, but to do so with joy.
Here are some thoughts about how to be grateful.
1. Pause the anger and grievance cycle. For people of faith, that would mean praying to God to help you pause these negative feelings. You know deep down that this is not serving you or the people you love. For some it will mean being still, meditating and clearing your mind of all thoughts, certainly negative ones.
2. Think of at least one thing you are grateful for. At first this might seem almost impossible. But if we examine our lives deeply enough, we can almost always think of at least one thing. Perhaps it was a friend in school or a teacher; maybe a boss or co-worker. Maybe we had some artistic or athletic abilities that we enjoyed or continue to enjoy. Maybe it is broader, such as being thankful for having God in our lives, or just being alive.
3. Create categories of things and people that you are grateful for. Think of family; our parents, spouse or partner, kids and siblings. Think of friends, co-workers. Think of past relationships from different stages and places in your life. Think of the gifts and abilities that you have and the ability to use them to help others. Think of the beauty of nature. Think of things you have accomplished.
4. Now spend time in each of these categories and go into some detail. For instance, you can think of friends in elementary, middle and high school and then college. Think of friends in the different places you have lived and in your neighborhood. Name each of these friends and be specific about why you are grateful for them and the impact they had in your life. Go through this detailed process of being grateful for specific people and specific things in each area of your life; family, work, hobbies and activities.
5. Commit to being grateful on a regular basis. Think of being grateful like you would following a diet or exercise program. Exercising one day a year or even one day a month does not do much good. It needs to be regular, ideally every day. So every day, find time to take at least a few minutes to be grateful. At first this might be difficult. But after a while, like starting a flywheel, it will get easier. You might even find a few minutes turning into thirty minutes or even an hour.
6. Find a place where being grateful is easier. A place that will stimulate your gratitude muscles. It could be a walk in the woods or in the park. It could be in a museum or in the ambience of your favorite coffee shop with all the sights, smells and sounds that you have come to love there.
7. Don’t give up. At first, being grateful may not be easy. Especially amid the devastation of a crucible that may feel almost impossible. But start small and then go from there, and you may well find that your list of what you are grateful grows.
It is easy to be angry and bitter and keep a record of every grievance and every hurt we have. That will not help us to move forward. It will tend to keep us mired in our worst day. That is not what we want. We need to stop ruminating on all the pain and disappointment we have been through, whether that has been caused by others or whether we had a part in it. We need to forgive, and if something needs to be done or said then do that.
But endlessly dwelling on our hurts and grievances is not productive. It will tend to corrode our soul. Remember, bitter and angry people tend to hurt others, often those we love the most. Is that who we want to be?
Let’s be people of gratitude and thankfulness not grievance, anger, envy and bitterness.
Reflection
Stop dwelling on anger and negative emotions. Take time to pray and meditate to clear your mind, your heart and your soul from these thoughts that are pulling you down.
Start thinking of people and things you are grateful for. The list might feel small at first, but dig deep to expand the list as time goes on.
Find a time and a place to be grateful regularly. Be disciplined. Being grateful will get easier the more it becomes a new ingrained habit and discipline.
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
Applying the Actionable Truths 7: Fellow Travelers
People you can trust. Who don’t have hidden agendas. Who are truly on the same page. That’s who you need to look for when you are building a team of fellow travelers, which we discuss this week on the seventh episode of our series within the show on the Beyond the Crucible Roadmap.
How do you find them? As we say here, you can learn a lot from Frodo’s companions in THE LORD OF THE RINGS trilogy.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
So what I realized later, that I didn't focus enough on hiring people who I trusted and had integrity, and I didn't focus enough on making sure there were no hidden agendas and that we're truly on the same page.
Gary Schneeberger:
People you can trust who don't have hidden agendas, who are on the same page truly as you are, that's who you need to look for when building a team of fellow travelers, which is what we discussed this week on the seventh episode of our series within the show on the Beyond the Crucible roadmap.
How do you find them? You can learn a lot from Frodo's companions in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
Welcome, friends, to this episode of Beyond the Crucible. And this is an episode that it's been a while, Warwick, since we've done an episode like this, so I'm excited to get back to talking about this. And this is our Beyond the Crucible roadmap where we unpack the actionable truths of the brand. It will level set me and Warwick to talk about it, because it's been a while since we've done it, and we'll explain why.
So this is our refreshed way. It's not entirely new, but it is refreshed. It is laser focused of how we help you get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity. And it's what we've come to call, as I've said, our Beyond the Crucible roadmap. We describe it this way, and I'm going to read directly from the paper I have in front of me here, and that is, "This is how we help people turn their worst day into their greatest opportunity. We provide the essential actionable truths to inspire, hope, enable, and equip them to write their own life affirming story. The roadmap has been built from our proprietary statistically valid research into how people experience crucibles, and what we've learned from our experience and the experiences of our podcast guests for what it takes to turn trial into triumph, what it takes to move beyond those crucibles."
And the most revolutionary news for us in all of this process is that in analyzing the roadmap, we identified what we're calling the actionable truths of the brand. To pass these life-changing truths along to you, our listeners and viewers this year, we have been doing something since the start of the year, another one of these things that we call, The Series Within the Show. So we have been spending 2025, and we're going to continue spending 2025 going through each of these 10 actionable truths, one per month, and exploring ways that they can help you make your way along the roadmap.
So Warwick, it's been a minute, as they say, since we've been here on these actionable truths, and that's because we took some time off from this part of the show to do our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles. But we're back now to finish our exploration of these actionable truths for the rest of 2025. And as I do in every one of these episodes, I want to ask you a couple questions up front. First one is this, to level set us for our discussion, on the seventh of these truths, let me ask you, why actionable truths? Why that phrase? What do we mean by that?
Warwick Fairfax:
So Beyond the Crucible, our focus is on helping people get beyond their worst day, which we often call the bottom of the pit, to a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And so what we have now is what we're calling Beyond the Crucible roadmap, how you go from trial your crucible to triumph for a life of significance. We've found that there are 10 actionable truths that are catalysts in helping you move along the journey from your worst day to where you're living your life-affirming vision. In other words, you're triumphing and living a life of significance.
So it's interesting, these actionable truths have always been implicit in the brand. They're actually chapters in the book, Crucible Leadership. We've now crystallized them as actionable truths that really point the way to going from your worst day to a life and significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And I've never really thought about it as deeply as I have thought about it since we've come back to it now. We call this the Beyond the Crucible roadmap, because it truly is, it's a map that takes you from your crucible to your life of significance. Those are the two ends that we're going to be talking about, two ends of the actionable truths that we're going to be talking about.
But explain, Warwick, to everybody, how these truths, these things that we're going to talk about, how do they help you go from setback to significance? How do they help you along this roadmap that we're talking about?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary, these actionable truths we view as accelerators or enablers to help us go from a crucible or trial to a life of significance or where we're triumphing. And I think you could make the case that without these actionable truths, you cannot go from trial to triumph. You'd be stuck in the pit of despair, your worst day. So you can think of them as fuel or I guess, what is it, nitrous oxide and Fast & Furious.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Yes. Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, you can have the greatest turbocharged car you can imagine, but without fuel it's going nowhere.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so these actionable truths, the fuel, their guideposts, way points, the kind of enablers for you to get out of your pit, your worst day, to where you're feeling like you're really triumphing and living a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
And before we move on to the truth that we're going to talk about today, which is Truth Number Seven, I want to make sure that we give folks a little bit of a refresher course, maybe give ourselves a little bit of a refresher course of where we've been, what have been the paths that we've walked along in this discussion. So this is Truth Number Seven. Can you quickly, for everybody, just run through one through six so we know how we got here, and then we can start talking about where we are now?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So when you're in the pit in your worst day, the first thing is understanding your crucibles. We say that your crucible didn't happen to you, it happened for you. Your worst day is not the end of the story, but the launching point for life giving you story. So it's try to reframe your crucible saying, "Okay, this may have felt like the worst day of my life, but is there some way I can use this crucible to serve me instead of reframing it?"
And as part of that, you go to the next step, which is self-reflection. Reflecting on your crucible can reveal important insights about yourself, your strengths, weaknesses, even vulnerabilities that you can use to forgive yourself, forgive others, and bounce forward. So self-reflection is critical, reflecting on what happened, why did it happen, what mistakes did I make, what can I learn from what happened to me? Self-reflection done right, can be a powerful tool to enable us to move forward. And then we get to the third step, which is authenticity. To move beyond your crucible, you must embrace your authentic self. And it's time to be true to who you really are, not who others want you to be.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's often easy to hide behind a mask of inauthenticity to be who you're not. And so part of having courage to bounce back from your worst day is saying, "I'm going to be who I am. I'm not going to put on a mask. I'm not going to try to be who others want me to be. I'm going to be me." And then another key factor, step number four is faith. Believing in something beyond yourself that serves as the immovable anchor for your soul, no matter what's happening around you. Now, faith may mean different things to different people. For me and indeed for Gary, it's our faith in Christ, but it might be faith in God in a more general sense or some other philosophical construct, but whatever it is, I think we're all people that are grounded in a belief system of some sort.
So you've got to dig down deep and to say to yourself or ask yourself, "What is it that I believe? How do I feel like the world is formed? What do I feel are my deepest, most innermost convictions?" To be able to move forward beyond your crucible, you really got to know what is it you believe. So that step is critical.
And then we get to the next step, step five, character. And we define character as how you live out your faith in the real world. Character is your belief system and action. So it's fine to say you have certain belief systems, but it's not very helpful or meaningful if you don't live them out. None of this will be perfect, but day-to-day on average, how is it that you're living your belief system out? How does it work itself out in your world?
And then the next step, step six, is vision. And we call that a sacred calling that summons you to a mission beyond yourself. No matter what the size of your vision, it has meaning and matters. I'd say pretty much every guest we've had on the podcast are people of vision, and I'd say very often that vision has come out of their worst day. They're crucible. And so when we say that your worst day didn't happen to you, it happened for you, the for is often having a vision to help people that maybe suffered the crucibles you suffered, or maybe to help them avoid what you went through, to learn the lessons, to make lives easier for others.
So vision is also a critical component of moving beyond your crucible, because when you get up in the morning and you're thinking, okay, why am I getting up? As Margie Warrell says, when she talks about courage, she uses this phrase, for the sake of what? Which I think is an incredible phrase.
And so in our construct, I'd say, so to get out of bed in the morning for the sake of what? Why? What's the point? Vision gives you a reason to get out of bed, because I've got people I want to help. I've got a difference I want to make I want to impact the world. So vision is another critical step in moving beyond your crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting, it's funny that I tapped into this idea of it's a roadmap, because what you just ran through, the six steps that we've gone so far, and we're going to go to step seven today, is like being on the highway and you see the road sign on the side of the road that says, "I'm in Kenosha, Wisconsin. I'm driving to Annapolis, Maryland." And it says 987 miles or whatever it is. That's the start. That's your crucible. You got a long way to go.
But as you get closer to your destination on the highway, it gets closer. The miles start coming down. And I think that's what happens as we go through this road map and these actionable truths, each one brings us a little bit closer to our final destination. That's fair, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And life is never easy, but in some sense it does make life easier in that one of the hardest things to deal with is when you have a sense of depression, melancholy, and obviously there's clinical depression, but there's degrees of feeling down. If you feel down in a sense of, what's the point, and there's no hope, it's really hard to keep moving forward. But when you feel like there's hope, you feel like you have a vision, you know what you believe, you're living out what you believe to the best degree possible, then there's a sense of hope, there's a sense of excitement as you get up in the morning.
And as you go to sleep in the evening, you start to feel gratitude. "Gosh, that wasn't an easy day, but it was a good day. I made progress." Even if it was a small baby step, I made progress. Maybe it had a small impact on one person. Maybe it was your spouse, partner, your kids, parents, friends. It's like, "Well, I think I did something right today. Maybe I did a few things wrong, but there was at least something I got right." And it gives you hope to keep moving forward. So yeah, these steps are very helpful. They give you hope. Life's about hope. Hope will fuel you to really get beyond your crucible and to live your best life, to live a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, and speaking of hope and help to live your best life, to get to a life of significance, our actionable truth today that we're going to unpack is fellow travelers. It's a favorite phrase of Warwick's to talk about, and he'll explain why, what they are and why it's a favorite phrase of his, but it's the first step, this step seven, this actionable truth seven is the first step in following out the vision that he talked about from step six, from actionable truth six of vision, the first step in pursuing that vision is in putting together a team of what Warwick has called fellow travelers.
So Warwick, how would you define, for our listeners and viewers, fellow travelers, and why are they critical? Why are they a critical seven step after a crucible to begin the journey of recovering from a crucible? Or I should say not begin, but continue the journey, because now we're getting down the road, to use my analogy, why are they critical, fellow travelers, to overcoming a crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's great to have the elements of a vision, but to fully flesh that vision out, we're going to need help. And we'll also need help to begin to make that vision a reality. So we've coined this phrase for people that come alongside us, fellow travelers, and there are different types. We say that fellow travelers can provide words of encouragement or advice, and that's critical. And there are also fellow travelers that might be members of our team and our organization or mission, irrespective of how big or small that may be in terms of numbers of people.
So bouncing back from our worst to our crucible, it's not easy. And to live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others is also not easy. But one of the decisions we have to make is, do we want help? And often in the days and months after our worst day, when in the pit of despair, we feel like this leper, to coin that biblical phrase. And it's like, "Leave me alone." You're in your room. You're in your apartment or house. People ring the doorbell. You don't answer. They call you. You don't answer. You just don't want to see anybody. You feel so bad about yourself, either because of what you've done or what was done to you. You just feel like you're either not worthy of help or nobody can help you, or, "I'll figure it out myself." There can be a variety of different reactions depending on who we are in the circumstances.
But you've got to make a decision that we all need help. We cannot live life alone. And so we're going to need help in those days and months after the crucible. People who can console us, encourage us, just to help us get out of bed in the morning. And once we begin to have the elements of a vision, we're also going to need help from other people. So it'll be critical in having people to help us frame out the vision. We might have a kernel, an ember of a vision, but other people will help mold that vision into something bigger. And these other fellow travelers, they will probably have gifts and abilities that we don't have that will help make our vision a reality.
So fellow travelers, it's really critical. I think it's hard to believe that you can truly get from your worst day to a life of significance without help, without fellow travelers. Life is not meant to be lived alone. And that is certainly true in terms of getting out of your worst day. You've got to have help, and they come in different forms, whether it's encouraging, consoling, helping you build your vision. You got to be willing to say, "I can't do it all. I do need help." That doesn't make me weak. I'd say the strong person asks for help. The weak person says, "I can do it all and I don't need help." So be the strong, courageous person and say, "I know I can't do it all. I need help." And be willing to let others help, because you may well find there are people who have been dying to help you if only you would let them in, if only you would say yes.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And this is the point in every one of these episodes where I pull out my favorite dictionary, which I call Webster's 1828, the very first dictionary of Noah Webster. And as you might expect, folks, Noah Webster does not have a definition for the phrase, fellow travelers. What he does have in this 1828 dictionary is fellow commoners, fellow prisoners, fellow peers, fellow... There's a lot of fellow things that he has in here. But the one that I think sticks out for me that speaks to this idea of fellow travelers, is fellow helper. That's one of the definitions here.
And it's one who conquers or aids in the same business, one who conquers or aids in the same business. That really seems to speak to what you're talking about, right? You're aiding someone and you're pursuing the same business/vision that they're pursuing, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. We definitely want to succeed in our vision. We want to conquer, but if we're smart, we'll want people to help aid us in the making of that vision, and the making of that vision a reality. We don't get to conquer without help. We do need people to aid us. It's just fundamentally true.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. All right. So now there are three stages in our research, and our research is both qualitative and quantitative. Three stages that our research have shown us people experience in this section of the roadmap. The first one is experimenting with new conditions (trials, and first failures.) So how do fellow travelers work? Help us, as we go through this stage.
Warwick Fairfax:
So we might have the kernel of a vision, but it can be overwhelming to bring that vision a reality, or even just to figure it out. It's like, "Well, I have an idea, but gosh, what does that mean and who would I serve and what does that really look like?" Maybe it's like a painting. You've got a few rough pencil marks on a canvas, and there's a vague idea of what it is, but it's not a fully fleshed out painting with colors and trees and landscape and water, is just a few pencil sketches. So fellow travelers can help us flesh out the vision.
And one of the ways that they help us do that is, you take small tests, small trials, test markers as they say, and product marketing. Because that way you see if it has legs. And you might find, gosh, I was thinking about this year for the vision or maybe this market or this range of people that could be served, but I never thought about these other people or this other way of doing it.
So test marketing or just trialing a vision could be very helpful. Well, we need fellow travelers to both help us flesh out the vision, help us figure out how to trial it. And these small steps and experiments, as I mentioned, they can help refine the vision to one that has a much greater chance of success. So experimenting, being willing to trial with a vision's critical, and you've got to have help doing that. You've got to have people on your team. You might have other companies, other nonprofits who will be happy to help you or partner with you, maybe doing different things. So you've got to be willing to partner with people both within your organization and your team and outside.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. The second area that our research tells us people go through as they're proceeding through the roadmap is growth and new skills hat's preparing for major change. What are the benefits of fellow travelers in this part of the roadmap?
Warwick Fairfax:
So fleshing out our vision is one thing, but we need to know what skills and capabilities we need on our team. And one way of doing that is having fellow travelers that can help us understand what are our skills. Maybe we have skills that we don't recognize.
Maybe we think we have skills in areas that we really don't. Hopefully they can lovelingly tell us, "You're really good at this area that you don't realize and you're not so good at this area that you think you're pretty hot stuff. So sorry about that." A little dose of reality can be helpful.
But secondly, if we're smart, we'll have people around us that will have skills and abilities that we don't have that can compliment us, that will help take the vision to a whole new level. So we need fellow travelers who are objective, who can have skills and abilities that we don't have, and who can really compliment the skills and abilities that we have.
Gary Schneeberger:
So folks, I want you to remember what Warrick has talked about in these first two areas, because later on, here's a teaser alert. I haven't told you what I'm going to talk about yet either, Warrick. I have a pretty good example of a very popular story we all know in which fellow travelers are essential to it. So put a pin in this and we'll come back to that.
The third stage here, Warwick, is preparing for big change. That's also grand trial revelation and insight. Let's talk a little bit about how fellow travelers help us at this part of the roadmap.
Warwick Fairfax:
So as our vision and organization, it grows and expand, the type of help we may need may change. And so we need fellow travelers who can advise us. Okay, maybe we started with a ten-person nonprofit or company, maybe we're now at 100 or 150. So what do we do now? We need advice. And that advice can be internal, it can be external, and it may be that our role within that organization may change.
We may find, depending on the size of the organization, that we need to bring in somebody from the outside to be a general manager or CEO, or maybe just somebody to help with the books, or maybe we're a visionary, but we're not too great about keeping the trains running on time. Somebody that can just perform some executive role of making sure that things get done when they should be done. So there's different levels of help, depending on where you are in the size of your organization. And you might find that if the organization grows to a certain level, that maybe the contribution you're bringing was great, but maybe there's somebody else that could take the vision to the next level. Maybe somebody else needs to be CEO. Maybe somebody else needs to take control of the whole organization, be it nonprofit or for-profit.
You've got to be willing to hand the reins of it, because if the whole idea is to help people, be it for-profit or nonprofit, again, back to what Margie Warrell says, "For the sake of what?" If it's truly about for the sake of impacting the world in some sense, then it should not be about us. You've got to separate your identity from the mission, from the organization. So you've always got to be willing to say, "Well, this isn't about me." And if it's not about me, if somebody else can do a better job, because it's at a level where I can't do it, or maybe other things have come up in life that have impacted your ability to be as involved as you'd like to, you've got to be willing to hand over to other people who maybe they were your fellow travelers and maybe they'll be leading it one day. So yeah, you always need help and you've got to be willing to have your fellow travelers give you advice, and it's not always easy.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting, because when we were developing these, there were some that got close to making the cut for actionable truths, but didn't. And humility is a big one of that. What you're talking about right there is humility. It's critically important to bouncing back from a crucible. It's critically important to walking out your life as significance. It's not technically an actionable truth, but it's absolutely wound in what you just talked about, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, if you want the best and the brightest, if you will, to be your fellow travelers, humility will help. If you're arrogant, "Hey, I know everything. I don't need help." That will pretty much ensure that you won't get the right kind of fellow travelers. What you don't want is people signing up for a paycheck saying, "I'm going to be a yes man, a yes woman. Whatever you want to hear, boss, you tell me." Gosh, what you just said, that vision, that idea, it was just genius. It was just brilliant, fabulous. I mean, I just don't really think you need that. So we want people that will tell us the truth. So humility is critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So I won't say here, that is the most insightful comments you've ever made on the podcast. I won't do that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Thank you.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good. Good. I'm glad. Now we're going to switch, and this is a good time to switch to this part. It's my favorite part of these episodes, folks, and that's where we talk about who I like to call Patient Zero, because he's the founder of Beyond the Crucible, and that's our host, Warwick Fairfax.
And just to talk about Warwick, about how he, in his journey from his setback to his life of significance, how he walked through whatever actionable truth we're talking about, and today that is on fellow travelers. So Warwick, talk a bit then about your experience with fellow travelers, especially during the takeover. The takeover, as we say.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, I think many of you who've been listening and watching the podcast know a bit about my background, but I grew up in a large family media business in Australia. It had newspapers, magazines, TV and radio stations. When I was growing up it was a massive organization, a $700 million 4,000 plus employee company. In 1987 after graduating from Harvard Business School, my father died early that year, and I launched a 2.25 billion takeover at the family company. I felt like the company was straying from the vision of the founder, my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax, and wasn't being well managed.
And so to launch this takeover and then manage the company, I knew I needed help, because when I launched this takeover, believe it or not, I was 26 years old. I made a lot of mistakes, but I wasn't stupid enough to say at 26, "I got this. I don't need any advisors. I know everything about finance and takeover law and managing large companies, and yeah, I'm good." I mean, so sometimes the task is so massive that it's really hard to tell yourself you don't need help.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's even with a degree from Harvard Business School, you still had that realization. So that says something.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, hopefully, I suppose. But unfortunately, I made a lot of mistakes and I didn't bring on the right kind of fellow travelers. So early on, in the months leading after the takeover, we had advice from a blue-chip merchant bank, which is a straight, in English-speak, for investment bank. And they said, "You know what, Warwick, the numbers don't add up. It's too risky. I know you're worried about hostile takeovers from corporate raiders and what have you, but if and when there's a hostile takeover, then gather the family round and it'll be easier."
Well, I didn't want to hear that advice, because it wasn't just, I was afraid of corporate raiders. I just felt like, as I said, the company was straying from the vision of the founder and it wasn't being well-run. So then I basically went to other advisors, I think of the last of the three Indiana Jones movies, at least the first three, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, and Harrison Ford who plays, as we all know, Indiana Jones. He's trying to find the Holy Grail and his dad's injured. And so there's two cups, one's all gold and the other is wooden. And so one cup might heal, his dad has been hurt, and the other cup will kill you basically.
And so if you don't choose well as some old might says, "You have chosen poorly." And if you choose well it says, "You have chosen well." In this case, I chose poorly. And so basically I ended up choosing advisors that had done some very large takeovers, but of questionable ethics, I guess you would say. And I wasn't really focused on that. I was focused on, well, they've done these huge deals. So I really chose poorly. I thought that, well, they're getting a significant fee. If everything goes well, then our interest will align, and they seem to be experts. And I just really made some poor decisions. And I guess really to crystallize it, I guess my biggest mistake was thinking that the most important thing when you hire people, is hire people with expertise.
That doesn't mean hire people who are clueless and who are idiots. I'm not advocating that. But just to say, all I need to do is hire the experts, hire people with expertise, that's the only criteria I need, or even that that's the most important criteria. No. So what I realized later that I didn't focus enough on hiring people who I trusted and had integrity, and I didn't focus enough on making sure there were no hidden agendas and that we're truly on the same page.
The more money, the more that there's a possibility, if not probability, that there could be hidden agendas. Nothing like money and power to motivate people to think in ways that may be not aligned with the organization or aligned with your goals or to have their own things they want to accomplish. That will tend to happen. So the more important that the mission is, to a degree, the bigger it is, but certainly the more important it is, the more impact and notoriety it can have. Then it's always important to work with people you trust and have integrity, but that trust and integrity will be tested severely the bigger the organization is, and certainly the bigger impact it can have. So people's own agendas and temptations can come along.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And here's the great thing about it, Warwick, and I know it's hard after you've gone through that to think there's any great thing about it, but here's the great thing about it, because we talk about this all the time at Beyond the Crucible, and that is, what happened there did not happen to you. You realized it happened for you. And the next question I want to ask you is,
What's your experience been with fellow travelers since then, especially with Beyond the Crucible? And I think what you're going to describe is, you learned some lessons from the first round of fellow travelers, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed. So after we had to file for bankruptcy three years later in 1990, I moved to the U.S. where my wife is from, and I was not in a good place. I was not clinically depressed, but I was like, "How could I been so dumb? I had a Harvard MBA." So what I didn't mention is that I graduated from Oxford University, and then did three years on Wall Street before I got my MBA from Harvard Business School. And I was just merciless with myself. I was like, "Gosh, I'm meant to be somewhat intelligent, how could I been so dumb? How could I made so many bad decisions and false assumptions like other members of my family who are involved in the family business that they wouldn't sell out into a takeover to a privatized company, controlled by me, who was 26." I mean, just a cataclysmically poor decision, using the wrong advisors.
So I was merciless with myself. My go-to psyche is, when things go wrong, I tend to blame myself, not other people. That was not an easy period in my life. I did have my wife, obviously the ultimate fellow traveler, wife, husband, or spouse. She was very helpful. It wasn't easy to help me in those days. I did have people of faith who came alongside me and prayed for me and tried to help. And gradually, I did move forward and I did begin to find the right kind of fellow travelers, and I found them in different places and different stages of my journey back from my worst day to ultimately getting beyond my crucible to living a life of significance. So in 2003, I began my journey to becoming a Certified International Coach Federation coach. I had fellow travelers who came alongside me in that journey, including a mentor coach, which is best practice as you're trying to figure out what it means to be a coach, how to do it well, have a coaching business.
Then I became a board member at my kid's school, a Christian school, Annapolis Area Christian School. And there were really great board members, and I became great friends with many of them, including the board president. And that was wonderful to lock arms together and really helping Annapolis Area Christian School prosper and move forward. And I also became an elder at my church, an evangelical non-denominational church area community church. And that's been an incredible joy as we try to serve people in Annapolis, Maryland, as well as around the world we have global partners all over the world, which is just incredible what the church has done. In both those organizations, Annapolis Area Christian School and Berry Community Church, I've been able to lock arms with fellow travelers who have a common heart and a common vision, who have expertise, but they have integrity. I trust them.
It's been an incredible joy. And now with Beyond the Crucible, I have a great team. They definitely have expertise, but they have more than expertise. They're a great team of fellow travelers. First of all, I trust them. They have integrity. They don't tell me what I want to hear. They tell me what they believe is true and what I don't always want to hear. It's not just, "Oh, yes, Warwick, that was great. And so, "Gee, Warwick, tell me what advice you want me to tell you, and I will tell you that. It just helps me to have the script in advance. You just tell me what you want me to say, and I'll say it to you," you know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
They're not like that, and they definitely don't have the skills and the abilities that I don't have. And what I find is an incredible blessing is that they're 100% committed to the vision of Beyond the Crucible.
What's amazing is, this whole podcast and blog and everything we do at Beyond the Crucible, it grew out of a book I wrote in 2022, I believe, Crucible Leadership. And the team we have is 100% committed to that vision. It grew out of that book and my life experience with growing up within a large family media business and finding my way back. So it's just amazing that they're really 100% committed to it. So I feel like it's not just my vision, I truly believe it's our vision. And I think that the team that we have, they feel the same way. It's incredible.
So having people on the team that I trust and have integrity that have different skills, they'll speak their truth and not always what I want to hear. I mean, it's a very, very different group of fellow travelers than before. I'm not thinking about, "Oh, I wonder what hidden agendas they have."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
I never think that, because to my knowledge, they don't have hidden agendas. I've seen no indications of it. They're all about what can we do to help Beyond the Crucible flourish, and help more people get beyond their worst day to lead lives of significance. They're all about that, which is an incredible blessing.
Gary Schneeberger:
Talking about the right kind of fellow travelers as you just did, got me thinking about something that we talk about at least every summer here on the show, and that's movies. And what is a great, I mean, it's a platinum example of finding the right fellow travelers and the value of them, and I'm just going to run through it quickly. It's The Lord of the Rings trilogy is all about fellow travelers. I'm going to give you just a few examples of what that looks like. So in the Fellowship of the Ring at the Council of Elrond in Rivendell, Frodo bravely volunteers to take the one ring to Mordor. Gandalf immediately steps forward and places a hand on Frodo's shoulder and says this, "I will help you bear this burden, Frodo Baggins, as long as it is yours to bear." That's a fellow traveler.
Here's another one from the same film series. It's also at the Council of Elrond in Rivendell. And after Frodo agrees to carry the ring, Aragorn stands and pledges himself to Frodo's protection. He says this, "If by life or death I can protect you, I will. You have my sword." It gives me chills to read stuff like that about fellow travelers.
Here's just one more of Frodo's fellow travelers, and that's Samwise Gamgee, his buddy who's with him throughout the whole series of films, all three films. In the Fellowship of the Ring, at the end of the Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo tries to depart without his fellow travelers to go alone across a river, because he's just worried about the power of the ring, corrupting his friends. Despite not being able to swim, Sam wades in after Frodo's boat and nearly drowns. And this is what he says to Sam after he gets there to talk to him, "I made a promise, Mr. Frodo, a promise. 'Don't you leave him, Samwise Gamgee.' And I don't mean to. I don't mean to."
I can't think of a better example in the fictional realm of fellow travelers all throughout all three films in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's such a good example. I mean, if ever there's somebody that needs help, it's Frodo. He's a hobbit. He's not of large stature. He is not particularly strong. He is the least likely to be a hero in some adventure, but he has a true heart, which is really his super power. And to have Gandalf, Aragorn, and Samwise wanting to be his fellow travelers, is amazing. They see something in him, just his heart, the purity of his heart, and they all want to help him.
And there's no way that Frodo could have accomplished what he did without help. You need fellow travelers. They clearly had skills that he did not have, and he had things that they didn't have. He had this purity of heart. None of the others could be anywhere close to the ring, because it would just corrupt their souls. And they recognize that. So each of them had a role to play. But it's a great example of we need fellow travelers. Frodo did, and we do too.
Gary Schneeberger:
Indeed. We've covered a lot of ground here, Warwick. As I always do at the end of these episodes on the Actionable Truths, what's the one key takeaway that you'd like to leave listeners and viewers with as we wrap this episode today?
Warwick Fairfax:
So in picking fellow travelers, expertise can be overrated. Doesn't mean it's not important, but when you pick fellow travelers, that should not be the first thing you're thinking of. And that sounds very counterintuitive. Surely the first thing you should be thinking of is, okay, what do they have to offer? What's their expertise? No. The first thing you should be thinking of is, can I trust them? Do they have integrity? Are they going to tell me what I want to hear, or what I need to hear? Where can I see evidence in their lives and their past organizations and their family with their kids, however it works. Where can I see evidence that I can trust them, that they have integrity? That's absolutely critical.
And of course, you want people who are experts in their field, and you want to make sure that they have skills and abilities that you don't have, and you absolutely want them to be 100% committed to the vision, that's critical. But picking the right fellow travelers, it all starts with trust. Can you trust them? Do they have integrity?
Gary Schneeberger:
I don't say it often in these episodes, but I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word's been spoken at a subject, and our host, Warwick Fairfax, just spoke it. This is, folks, the seventh actionable truth we will be discussing in depth this year.
Each month we'll take a look at a new one and how it is connected to the previous one, to build out the roadmap. And next time we will be discussing, come on, let's have a drum roll, Scott. Thank you. We'll be discussing perseverance.
So until the next time we're together, folks, please remember this; we want you to believe these truths that we talk about, but we also want you to act on them, because that's what's going to help you along the roadmap from trial to triumph. We'll see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
She Lost Millions and Found Her True Calling: Amy Shippy
Broken and shattered. These are familiar emotions after a crucible — especially one that forces you to start over after losing a multi-million-dollar business.
But start over is exactly what our guest this, week, Amy Shippy did — and continues to do. She’s started four new businesses, including the one she says is her true calling to a life of significance — Lady Biz Wiz — where she helps female entrepreneurs tackle the unique challenges professional women face.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Amy Shippy:
When we lost our furniture business during the recession in 2012, I guess is when we ended up losing the business, we had held on for quite a while, hoping the recession was going to end, and it didn't. I remember at that point being very angry. I was angry it had failed. We were very successful. We had three children when it failed, versus when we started, we had none. We were dating. And I remember being very angry and I remember just feeling broken. I felt so utterly shattered.
Gary Schneeberger:
Broken and shattered...familiar emotions after a crucible, especially one that forces you to start over after losing a multi-million dollar business. But start over is exactly what our guest this week, Amy Shippy, did and continues to do. She started four new businesses, including the one she says in her true calling to a life of significance, Lady BizWiz, where she helps female entrepeneurs tackel the unique challenges professional women face.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Amy, it's so wonderful to have you on the podcast. I love learning a bit about you and all of the things you've got going on. You've got the Lady BizWiz coaching, mentoring, consulting businesses, as well as a book that you wrote, The Lady Biz Quick Launch Guidebook: Taking Your Business from Concept to Market. Great idea. But you also are an entrepreneur, so you've got several businesses, which we'll get into. Lottiebelle's, Blue Poppy Designs, and Marche de Macarons, something?
Amy Shippy:
Perfect, yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
I did do a bit of French-
Amy Shippy:
You passed.
Warwick Fairfax:
... many moons ago in high school.
Which is wonderful, but before we get to that, I'd love to hear a bit about the backstory because you've been an entrepreneur probably your whole life. I think I read somewhere you grew up in Hilton Head but live in Savannah, so talk a bit about growing up. And were there seeds of that entrepreneurial spirit as you were growing up that led to who you are?
Amy Shippy:
Yeah, so I have been an entrepreneur my entire life. I grew up with entrepreneur parents and entrepreneur grandparents, so I would say that I'm a third-generation entrepreneur. I remember talking to my mom when I was about 12 years old to help me get together a lemonade stand that I could sell lemonade on the golf course in Palmetto Dunes.
Entrepreneurship is just something I've always done. I started my first real business, I would say, at 21 years old and went from there. And for the past 30-plus years, I have been basically an entrepreneur. So, I love creating something from nothing, which I think is really the defining definition of being an entrepreneur. You have an idea, and then how do you pull all the parts and pieces together to get something launched? Which really becomes the inspiration of my book that we talked about.
But Hilton Head is, especially in the '80s, I'm going to date myself pretty easily, so the '70s and '80s, Hilton Head was a very small, mainly tourist-driven island. And so you got to meet a new group of people every week as they came in. And so I think that really honed a lot of the entrepreneurial spirit of being able just to talk to strangers, get to know people. My mom said I was the welcome wagon at five years old walking down the Hilton Head Beach and would greet every person on a towel and welcome them to the island, so I guess my whole life I've been a person who likes to engage with people. And that is part of, I think, a lot of what has made me successful as an entrepreneur.
Warwick Fairfax:
What's interesting is some people grow up in families in which get a safe job. Many decades ago, IBM or whatever it was, General Electric gets one job, never leave. And if the kid said, "I'm thinking about starting a business," they say, "Don't. It could fail." So, a lot of people are told, "Don't even think about it." But yet I'm sensing in your family, you didn't get that message. It was like, it feels like entrepreneurial spirit was encouraged, because in many families, it's try to scratch it out of you and, "Be sane. Don't be a risk-taker because risky is not safe." So, it sounds like you grew up in a very supportive environment in some ways.
Amy Shippy:
I do really truly feel that way. And it is, entrepreneurship is very risk-based. If you are very risk-averse, entrepreneurship is going to obviously be a hard peg to put into a square hole type of thing. But because my grandfather on my mom's side, my grandfather on my dad's side, my dad and my mom and my stepdad were all entrepreneurs, it was just always something that I watched people do that. So, it did not feel very risky. Did my parents always think every idea I had for a business was great? Well, they might poke holes. And they did.
My parents poke holes in everything I do, so don't get the idea that they're like, "Great, just go for it." They would really put me a little bit through the wringer to make sure I had thought out the process, which I think is really, really important in the entrepreneurial path, is that you have somebody that's just not telling you, "Go for it," but really, with a discerning idea, wants you to look at that concept from multiple facets because that's not traditionally what it is.
And then I met my boyfriend, who became my husband. We've been married for 26 years. And he did not really come from an entrepreneurial background at all. His parents were both school teachers, but he had this entrepreneurial spirit as well. And so he's always super supportive of everything that I've done, and so we've been in many businesses together.
I had a lot of, I guess, affirmation and a lot of encouragement, and always have in being an entrepreneur. Not that they always thought it was great. When we went into our furniture business, my dad still ran credit cards on a machine and took his deposits up to the bank, and he's like, "This World Wide Web thing is not going to go, Amy. That's just got to be a flash in the pan. I don't know what you mean taking credit cards over the phone. This is not going to work out." And he was wrong. But anyway, it stuck around.
Warwick Fairfax:
That is so wonderful.
Talk about that first business, FurnitureBiz.com, because it was very successful, but yet it was challenging. That feels like a lot of what you do now comes out of the lessons learned and that experience, so talk about that journey. How did you found it? What made you think of doing that?
Amy Shippy:
So, it was really my second business. My husband, like I said, he was my boyfriend at the time, and my father had a furniture business in Alabama, so furniture was in a space that he really did understand outside of the whole World Wide Web thing, which he didn't quite get at all. He really understood furniture. And I had worked at a furniture business right out of college selling sofas. That business had come up for sale. I was going to buy it, and then at the 11th hour, he ended up selling it to somebody else.
And then my husband, like I said, my boyfriend at the time, he was working at Havertys Furniture and we were truly on our way to where my dad had a vacation home in Florida and we had about eight hours drive. And Rob said, he goes, "Amy," he goes, "I like the furniture idea. Your dad will get behind that. From a financing standpoint, he'll help guarantee some of the funds for that." Because he had already told me that he was going to guarantee the funds for the furniture business I ended up not buying. And that eliminated an obstacle because I didn't have to really sell my dad on a concept that he wasn't really familiar with.
And my husband's like, "This ready-to-assemble furniture, it sells really great at Havertys." It's not really what Havertys sells, which is where he was working at the time, but they had another section that sold it. He's like, "I think we could build a whole business out of selling ready-to-assemble furniture." And so we talked it through on the eight-hour drive, and when we got down there, we pitched it to my dad, and he's like, "I like that idea."
And I was actually... One of the only two jobs I've ever had that have not been entrepreneurial at that time was working at Gulfstream Aerospace as a data analyst in engineering, and it was a pretty nice little job. And we got back from that and my dad's like, "I think that's great." And a month later, I went to the bank and they wrote me a check. And I never thought funding could be so easy. And my dad's like, "Yeah, funding's only easy because it's on me if you fail. And you're coming to Alabama to work in my furniture store if you don't make it." And so huge incentive to make it work.
And so we took $50,000 and bought a bunch of ready-to-assemble furniture and hired actually a church youth group that was trying to raise money for a big mission trip they were going on. And so we had all these high school kids come in and assemble all of this furniture for us, and it helped fund 18 kids to go on this mission trip from what we paid them. And really, 30 days later, we were in the furniture business with the store.
And it was ups and downs, as all businesses do. And the fact that, like I said, he was my boyfriend at the time, there were those obstacles to overcome, and how did that work being my business? Because my dad had guaranteed it. We weren't married, and what did that look like? And then working with your significant other is not always the easiest thing to do. But really, we started as a furniture store. It was a brick and mortar furniture store. It was 1997 when we started, and so the internet was really, really brand new. Amazon was coming online around that time. We really were not thinking about an internet business, but within a year, we did. It was a lot of work, but a lot of fun. I love the idea of working hard but seeing that payoff.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's interesting to hear you talk, Amy, about having all the ups and downs because you said something that you've had all the ups and downs, but you said you've recovered from both. It's an interesting perspective because at Beyond the Crucible, we talk all the time about recovering from crucibles, but it's true, you can be successful, and there's a little bit of recovery you have to do from that too, right?
Amy Shippy:
There is. When we launched our furniture business during the recession in 2012, I guess is when we ended up losing the business, we had held on for quite a while, hoping the recession was going to end, and it didn't. And I remember at that point being very angry. I was angry it had failed. We were very successful. We had three children when it failed, versus when we started, we had none. We were dating. And I remember being very angry and I remember just feeling broken. I felt so utterly shattered.
And I remember I actually... Oddly enough, and I really do believe this was totally predestined and really how you don't always have to overcome obstacles by yourself. These were obstacles that were overcome, and healing is not always something that happens because I wanted to be healed, because I always don't know where that healing is going to come from. But about six months before our business failed, my in-laws had actually gone to a retreat. And it was a retreat that my husband and I had been invited on several times over the past probably six or seven years. We had always declined it because I was having a baby or it was just really not an opportune time to go.
My in-laws were really adamant when they got back, and so they actually signed us up for this retreat and paid for it and everything. They're like, "You're going. There's no choice." And our business goes out of business in August and the retreat is actually early October. And I spent most of September, to be honest with you, in the bed. I was just shattered. I was as shattered as you could be. And my husband went the previous weekend, and then I went. And I'm like, "Okay, well, I can go along to get along. They paid for it. I'll go and do my thing."
As you mentioned, I do have a background in religion and I'm very faith-based, but at this point, I was really not having much of it. And I'm there and I remember, and there was a moment that I think the Lord spoke to me and I said, "I'm not interested, really not interested in what You have to say. You have shattered me. I don't have any interest. I'm hurt, I'm broken. I don't know what to do." And there was a moment in that conversation as I'm arguing, I'm arguing, I'm literally arguing with the Lord, and I said, "I don't know what to do. You have thrown me and shattered me as far as the east is from the west, and I don't know how to put myself back together." And He said to my soul, He goes, "But I do. I know how to put you back together." And I said, "I don't believe you. I really don't believe you. It doesn't feel like you've got my best interest at heart." And He goes, "But I know the plans I have." And I'm like, "Yeah, great. Go sell that to somebody else."
And there was that moment in that conversation of me being really defiant and not wanting to listen that He said, "If you will just lay your crown back at my feet, I will take care of this." And it was so overwhelming to me that the next day I was at lunch, and still at this retreat thing that I'm going through the motions, and a gentleman sits next to me. And it's really a fully women's retreat, except for four men that are there as the spiritual leaders. And I'm sitting at this table and this gentleman sits next to me and he says, "Tell me your story." And I'm like, "I don't have any story to tell. I'm just here. My mother-in-law bought this and I'm here." And he is like, "Well, I think you have a story because I've been watching your answers. You have more knowledge. Tell me your story."
I'm like, "I really, dude, have no story. Thank you for sitting next to me. I'm sorry, I'm probably not the best. I'm just not in a good place." And he says, "Well, let me tell you my story." And he proceeds to tell me a story, and he turns out to be the chaplain of a hospital in Savannah. And he says, "I would love you to come and volunteer as a chaplain." And I'm like, "Well, okay, great." I'm going to go home from this, we all say things at retreats. I don't know. I'm like, "Not really interested, but thank you so much." And he says, "No, here's my card. I want you to come." It took me about two weeks when I got back from that retreat. And it was uplifting, but your world goes back to the world when you get home. Nothing had really changed.
And so two weeks I drive around in my car and the Lord keeps saying, "Make the call, Amy. Make the call." I'm not interested? Really? What if it was just platitudes? Really couldn't take any rejection right now. And He says, "Make the call." And I made the call and he says, "What's taken you so long? It's taken you two weeks. We've been waiting for your call." And three days later, I started as a chaplain. And what I got to see in that time is I had this obstacle, this brokenness, and it was real. It was a real true brokenness as anybody suffering brokenness has. It's a real brokenness. And it really doesn't matter if that brokenness is financial or that brokenness is in death or loss of a loved one. Loss is loss and brokenness is brokenness.
And I started volunteering at the hospital. It was a job I had. I had no job. I had nothing. And I got to sit with people facing other obstacles that were much more unrecoverable than mine, because I sat there when they turned life support off on loved ones. And those are not recoverable. Those people have gone and they're not coming back. And I got to see over the eight months that I did that, the obstacle that I had, which was a real loss, was an obstacle that I believed that I could overcome. And so what it showed me is that obstacles happen and recovery is necessary. And for me, submitting was necessary.
But when I got on the other side and opened my macaron business, which was nine months later from the time that I lost my business I opened my macaron business, it wasn't a long time, that what He said was true. "I'll put you back together." And He put me back together one patient at a time in a hospital while I sat in the gap of some really devastating losses. And it was an honor to sit in that gap. And a lot of that gap was built in silence. There were no words. There are no words that will help people in pain a lot of times. But what it showed me is that I wasn't a one-trick pony in the business world. The things that were part of me generationally or who I was didn't die with that business. It was there for me to take and grab ahold of if I was willing to take the risk again.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Amy, talk a bit about that brokenness because that whole Furniture Biz, it seems like it's a great idea and you've got Ikea and a whole bunch of others now that are ready-to-assemble furniture and they look pretty good. And certainly back in the day, I've assembled a lot of Ikea and some other things, as we all have. So, it sounds like there was maybe frustration, maybe anger, so talk a bit about that brokenness. I don't know if there was identity wrapped in there, but before we talk about how you came back from it and maybe how the Lord helped heal you, put you back together again, talk a bit about that brokenness and why you felt... Anybody's going to feel bad if a business fails, but everybody's different. Why was it so bad for you? Or what are the elements of brokenness that you felt you had to deal with?
Amy Shippy:
Well, there was a lot of pride in that. We had started this business with $50,000 and we had grown it to about $14 million a year in sales. I was a multimillionaire by the time I turned 30. There was a lifestyle that we had built. We had plans that we were raising our children with these ideas and these resources. And I took a lot of pride in what we did. I took a lot of pride in our success. There was a lot of pride about that.
And so to a lot of degree, I identified a lot with the business. And when the recession came, I had actually been staying at home for a number of years. Like I said, I had three children. And so my husband really ran the day-to-day business and I oversaw the finances and oversaw the trends and things like that. And then when my husband said, "The recession is hitting us. You need to come back and you need to put your brain behind this and see if you can save this." And so I went back to work, and I did it for two years and I lost about 40 pounds in the process. I felt like I lost half my hair. Just the stress of it all. I was up at 4:00 in the morning.
And so I had fought. I had fought for two years, and I would think that I was going to get on the other side of it. I remember thinking at the time that if I ever do write a book about this, and I do feel like that one day will happen, it's called Holding My Breath. I felt like I would be pushed under and I would be held there until I was about out of oxygen and I would just have enough reprieve, like I was going to fix this, to get a big gulp of oxygen only to be shoved back down again. And furniture was just very much tied to lending and housing. And people weren't moving. They weren't opening offices. So, those are a lot of what we saw, and so it just wasn't going away.
So, I was beat up pretty good by the time that I said I couldn't fix it. And I remember my husband walking in the bedroom about three weeks and he's like, "You've had three weeks. Get over this. We've got to get back into it. You've got children. We've got a world. You're done. You've had enough time to sulk about it." And I didn't feel like there was enough time. I didn't think it was quite enough time.
But in the end, I think when you are suffering with brokenness or devastation or these things that cause you pain, I do think, at least for me, it was helpful to have a spouse that said, "You know what? We're not being defined by this. You're not going to be defined anymore by your successes, and you're going to be defined by your failures, Amy. You're defined by who you are intrinsically you, and you're going to have successes and you're going to have failures, but if we measure who you are based on either of those things, then I think you're really limiting who you are."
Warwick Fairfax:
What was some of those key early lessons in which you rewired your brain and psyche to think differently next time you're going to launch a business?
Amy Shippy:
I really can't really give myself credit for rewiring anything. I think when I had that moment where I was just defying God, I just was truly just saying no. I have a degree in religion, so I know all of the things. And that's what He kept saying to me. He goes, "You know all the things. You know all the words. You could quote them back to me." And He goes, "They're all in your head." He goes, "But somehow they're just not in your heart anymore." And I said, "I get it." I really was utterly argumentative and was equally mad at him, if not more mad at him than anybody else. I felt like he had...
And so I tried to bargain. I did. I did a bargaining plan with him and I said, "God," I said, "I'll believe You if You'll light the path and give me stadium lighting with all... So I see that there's no bumps in the road. And if You'll do all of this for me, I will do what You're asking." And He's like, "I'm not going to." He goes, "I'll give you a light before the next step." He goes, "I'll let you know that the next step is solid." He goes, "But I'm not going to do that." And I'm like, "But that's not what I'm asking." He said, "But I'm not doing that." He goes, "But I will fix it." And it's not fixed. I really wish He'd fix it in the same success that I'd had prior. It's been a much slower build. I make a good living out of what I do. It's not the living that I made before. But He was true.
And so what I really learned was I like having all the answers. I do. But I don't. And I sometimes just have to trust Him that the process is going to be the process. And I've been equipped with the skills and knowledge that I have, and if I just sometimes let the process do, it works out. And so when I'm having a bad day, and I still have days that I don't... I'm busy, and 90% feels like it falls my way. I'm going, it's like 90% falls in line, and then 10% doesn't. And sometimes that 10% doesn't, and I get in my car and I talk about this with a lot of women business owners, I said, "I get in my car and I cry." And I'm not a crier. If I start crying in front of my husband, he's going to buy me flowers. It's really [inaudible 00:24:53]. He's like, "I don't know what to do with you. You don't cry, so what's going on?" He gets very scared.
And I said, "Well, I don't cry. I don't cry really in front of people." And I said, "But sometimes I cry, and I get in my car and I drive and cry and drive and cry and drive and cry." And then eventually, I get to the end of that road of how many tears I can shed, and then I turn the car around. And when I turn the car around, it's time to get back to business. And so what I tell myself all the way back, depending on how long I've driven, all the way back, I tell myself, "You know what, Amy? You hit it pretty much 90% of the time. That's a good average. You win more than you lose." And I reaffirm myself on the way back that says, "You know what? You have this. You've gone down failure, you've survived it, you've reinvented. You've got this."
But I also very much am a strategic planner. So, for my business, I set goals usually from mid-December to mid-January. I go through my goals for the next year. I set yearly goals and I break that down. And when I work with women in business or really anyone in business, I do talk about setting very achievable goals because I believe if you set a goals that you can achieve in quick succession, it creates a dopamine drop that keeps you building a momentum. And that momentum does take you through.
So, I'm not that ethereal. I really do have... And I keep them on my phone. My cell phone, in the notes I have, "I want to make X amount of dollars. How many tumblers is that? How much is that going to make me? How many do I need to do?" So, I'm really very, very strategic about that because I'm really, at the end of the day as a business person, I want to make a profit. I'm very, very intentional. And when something doesn't work, I think we can blame a lot of people for a lot of things, but I don't think we have real change until we look in the mirror and see what we added to the pot that created what we create.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, that's so well said. Talk a bit about how that's led you to do what you do now. And you have a lot of interesting businesses, Lottiebelle's, Blue Poppy Designs, Marche de Macarons. And maybe one of the things that's really on your heart is working with women in business, Lady BizWiz. How did that all end up there? Because it seems like you have so many lessons, life lessons that yet you've got to do the blocking and tackling of goals and metrics and numbers, as we do at Beyond the Crucible, but then not tie your identity to what you do because inevitably there'll be obstacles you couldn't possibly have foreseen. And maybe-
Amy Shippy:
There are.
Warwick Fairfax:
... there'll be obstacles you should have seen and didn't. Maybe that's the 10%, is like, man, how could I have missed that one? I guess I must've been asleep that day. So, stuff's going to happen.
Amy Shippy:
Stuff always happens. To answer that question, I'm very fortunate that I have a group of women entrepreneurs that I will go to. If this is a problem I can't solve it, I don't know why I can't solve it, and I'll call. And they're like, "Well, have you thought about it this way?" And I'm like, "Nope, never thought about it that way." And I'm like, "But that's all a really good way to think about it."
Sometimes you just can't see the forest through the trees. That saying is true because you're so ground in to what you want to do and how you saw it happening. So, that, I think, is what has inspired my passion to working with women in business is because they want to be at the five-year mark in their business image-wise, branding, look, feel, sales, but they don't want to go through month one. They want to get to year five. And I'm like, "Do you know how many times I've changed my logo over the years? Do you know how many times I've changed my packaging over the years?" I couldn't afford the packaging I have now when I first started. I wanted to make a profit and I didn't want to have a lot of debt. When you look at me in the five-year market, that is not what it looked like at the one-month mark.
And so people get hung up on this vision that they want to have, and I'm like, "Well, let's make it the vision of actually becoming profitable. So, let's look at what your startup costs are. How many of your widget do we need to sell till you break even? And then how many of those widgets do we need to sell a month broken down by the week so your business funds sell?" And I said, "And maybe we can't afford the marketing that we want right now, but what are some marketing options that we can do that are free? And you can't afford the packaging that you eventually want, but what can we package in now that gets you off to the races?"
I do have multiple businesses. They were not started at the same time. That's the other thing people think, they're like, "Well, you just started three businesses." And I'm like, "No, I didn't have triplets." No. I said, "I waited for each one to be potty-trained before I got to the next one." I have triplets. My husband will take me on vacation for a week and I'll come up with five businesses, and then that's how I am. Most of those do not come to fruition, but I love business ideas and breaking it down and solving the puzzle.
But the macarons came out of my time as a chaplain. I was working as a chaplain. I thought I was actually going to go back and apply to get my Masters of Divinity, and I really felt like the Lord was calling me to be a chaplain. I was like, okay, well, here You are. You destroyed me, put me back together again, and I'm going to be a chaplain. Because it was just an amazing opportunity and I felt so successful at doing it. I don't know if that's even a right word to use with chaplaincy, but I felt like it was just so intrinsically part of who I was to be able to sit in this gap with people. And so I really thought that's what I was going to do. Yay, I'm not going to be an entrepreneur anymore. I'm going to go get a job and I'm going to go be a chaplain.
And six months into that, my best friend wanted to do a cookie swap party, and she's like, "What cookie are you going to make?" I'm like, "I don't know." I'm like, "I think I'll do this." And then truly three days before the event, I hadn't made any of the cookies. I decided to make French macarons because I found them on a food blog and whipped up, didn't really know that you really can't whip up macarons, but I did. I whipped up 200 of them. Didn't know that was challenging. I now have failed every which way possible to making macarons, but my first 200 French macarons turned out beautifully. Didn't know that there was any trouble in making them, and there's all kinds of problems in making them. And everybody at this cookie swap party wanted to know about these silly little cookies. And the irony is, I don't even think I had one. I don't actually eat sweets. I have no sweet tooth really whatsoever.
But 90 days later, my best friend's, like, "I think we could do a cookie business." 90 days later, we were in the cookie business. With $800. We started that whole business with $800. And we found there was just some, I think, divine opportunities that opened up. And that's another thing I talk about with women and really anybody, not necessarily just in business, but overall, is are you looking for opportunities? You would be amazed on how many opportunities present themselves that you're not even aware of them being an opportunity because you're scared to say yes to an opportunity.
And so this opportunity came up and we opened the business. And I took that $800, and inside of three years, we were at $350,000 in sales, which is a lot of $2 cookies. That's a lot of cookies. And it just reaffirmed that the knowledge and the skills that I had were not built around that business that had failed. They still were with me. I think if you're a writer, which I'm not, I think if you're a writer and you have a book that doesn't do well, it doesn't mean that you're not a great writer. It just maybe means that it just wasn't the right timing for the book or whatever. So, if you're good at something and you feel passionate about it, I think you should go for it, even if it doesn't work out exactly the way you thought it was.
But yeah, the business, I think at the end, God shared with me that I'm an entrepreneur. That is my DNA. It is so intrinsically who I am that to go to not do what I do and what I love would've made me not as happy long-term. But I will forever be thankful for that season of sitting at that hospital and having the opportunity. It healed me. I tell people, I said, "I got healed in a hospital, but I wasn't sick, not with cancer or anything else. I was sick in my soul. I was in this time of brokenness." And it was in that hospital that God Himself, the great physician that He is, healed me back together. So, I do tell people, I said, "I got healed in a hospital, but I wasn't sick in the traditional way."
Warwick Fairfax:
So, what's interesting to me is you have these businesses that you found and do, but you're not just a business owner. You're also a coach, a consultant, an advocate for women entrepreneurs in particular. That feels a little different in the sense that you feel a calling to help other business owners, particularly women. How did that come about? Because you could have just kept founding businesses and that's who you are, but it feels different. It feels like there's a particular calling here.
Amy Shippy:
It is, and it's actually the desire of my heart. The desire of my heart is actually to scale my two businesses that I own into an exit strategy in the next few years and do Lady BizWiz for the rest of my life. I feel very passionately about business, obviously. And a lot of people who do consulting come out of the corporate world where they've worked in corporations and then they're like, "Well, I've worked in corporations I know." And I'm like, "Well, I've never worked in a big corporation. I build corporations, and so I can tell you exactly what it is."
But what I find particular about working with women in business is... Actually, I was talking with a lady. I'll give this as a great example. It's not my example. It's another lady's example. And she said, so she goes, "Here's the difference between men and women." She goes, "Men can look at a job posting and they can fill in 50% of the qualifications. They're like, 'I'm good for that job,' and they'll apply for it. Women can look at the same posting, and if they don't hit 100% of the qualifications, a woman is not going to apply for that job."
As women, we want to be 100% qualified. And it's just a mentality. It's not a right or wrong mentality. It's just the way that men and women look at obstacles and opportunities. And then women in particular take things a lot more personal than men do. So, when I have a thing that didn't go my way, I'll talk to my husband about it, he's like, "You're just taking it too personal." Now, that usually starts an argument in our household because I'm like, "Well, just hear me out." As husbands, it's not the best thing to say to your wife. It's not like my husband tells me to calm down. That also doesn't work, but-
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, do not say that, no.
Amy Shippy:
Do not say that. But women do take things personally because we do take a miss as a personal failure. Women, especially in this day and age, do feel like we've got to be it all. We've got to be in the marketplace, we've got to be in the household, we've got to be in the parental role. And so that's a lot of pressure on women.
And so when I speak to women entrepreneurs especially, which is what has really driven the passion behind it, is I'm like, "Yeah, you really don't need to have 100% of the skills. We can develop some of those skills." And I said, "Really, maybe 100% of those skills are not even needed in the business idea that you have. Maybe only 60% of them." But unless you get off the bench and into the game, all you can do is talk about it. And if you really are serious about a business and I think it's a valid idea... If I think it's a valid. If I don't, I will tell them. I will say, "I don't think you've really thought about this that well." Or, "My marketing strategy was going to post it on Facebook." I'm like, "Not really a great marketing strategy. You're not going to get a lot of... Unless you got a huge following, it's not really that effective of a strategy."
But what I can also tell women is, "That doesn't mean anything. We can talk about strategies that will work. What are you good at? What are you not good at? Are you a people person? Are you not a people person?" All these things can run successful businesses, but how can we leverage your business with your personality style to get you off the bench and get you into the game of being an entrepreneur basically at step A? We can talk about five-year goal, but if we can't get through one-month goal, six-month goals, and one-year goals, we never get to five-year goals. So, what can we set here that does not require... Don't typically recommend, most people I work with, to take out large amounts of loans. That's just an albatross. Those banks want that money back, whether your idea takes off or not. So, how can we scale this small to get you into the marketplace? How can we look at your margin? And things like that.
I started working with SCORE, which is a nonprofit mentoring nationwide program, I think it's a fabulous program, several years ago. And as much as I love what it does, it was all free mentoring. And what I found is when things were free for people, there wasn't always an intrinsic sweat equity value to it because it was free, so it cost them nothing whether to take the advice or not take the advice. But I did talk to... And 68% of their clients were female business owners. And actually, I think 73% of them were minority business owners. And there's a big need for minority and women business owners to make it in the industry, and so I love working with both.
But I do feel very passionate, I do feel like it's a total mission for me to break down business into easily digestible chapters, so to speak. I was telling Gary about that this morning. I read. I read a ton. And my children especially love when I can get a hold of a 1,400-page book that's going to keep me occupied for at least two weeks. And my kid's like, "How do you read a 1,400-page book?" And I'm like, "One page at a time." It doesn't matter how long the book is, if it's a good story, it can go on for a while.
And that's what I try to tell women about business. Business at its very basic is what is your input? What is your startup going to cost? What is your widget? How many of those widgets do you need to sell to make back your startup costs? How do you reinvest that? And then how do you continue to build those blocks and then develop and grow your company as it goes? And I try to take a lot of the fear out of it for women because women are, for the most part, rather fear-based. And not so much fear-based of... Well, we don't like failure. That's the truth. And our society doesn't really applaud failure. We've been so ashamed in mom failure and things like that, so those are just all core languages about women.
But I truly think that women truly have some of the best, especially product ideas. Some of the best products came from women because they found a hole in their home life that they needed a product that didn't exist one, and so they created one to make household stuff easier or raising children, or the lady who started Spanx. It was a hole in the market. And so I think women have great ideas. I just think that their confidence tends to hold them back.
And so what I do with Lady BizWiz is I'm not a rainbow and unicorn coach. I really want you to be successful, and so I really do the deep dive into how do you know your numbers? And so the master class I put together, we build out when you finish, you have a fully built-out business plan, because I think a lot of people don't understand the importance of a well-thought-out business plan, again, from all the facets, helping women create a solid foundation for their business. Because I think the foundation of most businesses are about the same. The walls is where I think the differences come in based on what they're selling, technology, things like that. Everybody has to have a marketing plan. Everybody has to have startup costs. Everybody has to understand how to price their product. Everybody has to understand how they're going to source their product or their ingredients or whatever. Those are all intrinsic across the board, so I work with taking the mystery out of some of that so it really doesn't seem something that's nearly as scary as women want to make it out to be.
Warwick Fairfax:
What's interesting, Amy, about what you said is you deal with the practical side with women entrepreneurs. Have a plan, one goal at a time, let's look at marketing, let's look at financing. But then you deal with the inner challenges. You got it, there's the practical, which is incredibly important, but then there's the inner fear. If I don't have it 100% sorted out, then maybe I shouldn't try. And I imagine too, it's easy to be very negative. "Oh, gee, why can't I be more objective as my husband or some guy and not take thing so personally?" You could go down that list, but I'm sure you probably go down the other list, which is women have some qualities that many men don't have.
Amy Shippy:
Absolutely.
Warwick Fairfax:
There's a lot of men that aren't very empathetic, that aren't very discerning. It's like he seemed like a nice guy to me. It's like, "Nice guy? Come on, didn't you see the signals? Come on, the guy's seen as a creeper. What's your problem?" Or men can get very competitive. Competition is okay, but it can get in the way of common sense. Does it matter who wins in the meeting? Let's just get something done and cooperate.
So, there are qualities that women have that men could learn a lot from women. So, it's easy to look at the glass half-full, but I'm guessing with women, you do the practical marketing, but you also tell them, "Yes, I realize there may be some things that you, Woman A, might feel like you wish you were a bit different than maybe some men you know." But maybe there's some qualities are not... They're underrating the qualities that many men don't have, if that makes sense.
Amy Shippy:
I think they do underrate themselves. And we aren't a one-sided thing. We have two sides. As much as I love the logical side of things, I'm equally an artist, and so I feed both of those parts of me constantly, because when those both are running at about 50/50, I am the happiest. So, we are not a flat object. And when you look at both, the business needs the foundation, it does, but if you neglect who you are where you're not firing on your greatest strengths, whatever they are, you're not going to be a happy person. And I think that you can take whatever your strengths are and you can put those into your business. You don't have to take what my strengths are. You need to take what your strengths are.
To your point, God didn't make a mistake when He made you. He made you exactly the way you were. How can we leverage all of these good things that you already are, if you want to be an entrepreneur, into being the best entrepreneur you can be? And so we are multifaceted, and that's the beauty of what we are. And you do need to take counsel. Scripture's clear about that. And get other sides. It's not the Amy train necessarily. But no, I think we're absolutely perfectly and beautifully and wonderfully made, and we have to care for both sides of that. And I think that's who makes the best business people.
Gary Schneeberger:
This is the perfect time, folks, to both ask a question I'm about to ask, but also to point out that sounds you heard was the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt sign. We've begun the descent to end our conversation. We're not there yet. Before we get there though, Amy, I would be remiss if I did not give you the opportunity to let listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you, your businesses, and your coaching that you do with Lady BizWiz. How can they find you on the World Wide Web?
Amy Shippy:
So, you can find me on Instagram, @lady.bizwiz is my Instagram handle. You can find me at Lottiebelle's, which, if you like candy pecans or iced teas, it's my pecan and tea company, and it's @lottiebellesga on Instagram. Lottiebelles.com, ladybizwiz.com, and then Blue Poppy is bluepoppydesigns.com and @bluepoppydesigns on Instagram. All my social media are basically what my company's names are. And so we do from the design, the pecan stuff, we do corporate gifting and we can take care of any kind of gifts and things like that. That's what that is. And if you want to work with me, if you're finding obstacles in your business and you want to have help with that or you want to take the masterclass, all of that can be found on ladybizwiz.com. You can take the masterclass. You can work one-on-one with me. I am very small business-friendly in my pricing because I want to be accessible to everybody, so I'm not a really expensive coach to work with. I just really believe in getting people off the bench and into the game of business.
Gary Schneeberger:
Aren't you glad, folks, that there's a rewind button that you can go back?
Amy Shippy:
Sorry.
Gary Schneeberger:
Because there's a lot. No, there's a lot of really good stuff that Amy just spoke about, so please rewind and get all of those URLs so that you can find out more about the fascinating stuff that she's doing and that we've talked about here.
Speaking of fascinating stuff, Warwick, I know you have a question or two, and I'll turn it back over to you.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Amy, there might be a business person, a woman in business, entrepreneur, and maybe today might feel like their worst day. They've been where you were, they've lost the business, they're angry at themselves, God, whoever's up there, maybe everybody they know, everybody they're in business with, family, kids, maybe a big long list and they're frustrated and maybe they're saying, "You know what the lesson is? I should never have gotten out of bed. The smart play is don't try, because then you won't fail." So, for the entrepreneur, the women entrepreneurs who had some failure, what would a word of heard be to that person who might feel like this is all too hard, I'm just staying in bed, because that way, I won't fail?
Amy Shippy:
I know how you feel. I know that that morning that you don't want to get up, you just don't want to face the day feels so insurmountable to you. And I've been there. I haven't wanted to get out of bed. I just didn't think I was worth enough and I just didn't think I had anything to offer. But I will tell you this, that is a lie. That is not who you are. That is not what you bring to this world.
And so if you are feeling that way, please talk to somebody. You are not alone. And this loneliness and this brokenness that you feel, it is not permanent. Maybe it's how you're feeling right now, but it is not a permanent feeling. So, get up, stand up, put one foot in front of the other, and just take a deep breath. You have succeeded in your life. If you've gotten here, you've succeeded more than you failed. So, hold on to that. On those days that I do not feel like enough, that is what I reach into. Somebody loves you. Somebody feels that you are precious to them. And if you cannot name that person, the Lord Himself says that you are worth getting out of the bed for today.
I am sorry that you are feeling like that is just something that you don't have the energy for, but I'm here to tell you that you are not alone. You are not the only person that have felt that way. I have felt that way, and I have been able to overcome because people and things that were bigger than me said that I could. And you can too. And I am so sorry you're feeling that way, but please do not feel defeated in that. Life has a lot in store for you.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word's been spoken on a subject, and it was just spoken evocatively with an exclamation point by our guest, Amy Shippy.
Warwick, we just wrapped a conversation with truly, I say this all the time, I'm like a broken record, but it's true, a fascinating guest, Amy Shippy, who had both a pretty tough crucible but then had a tremendous bounce back, and she's living now a tremendous life of significance. Lots of things that we could talk about there. What are one or two things that you think that folks should focus on in this episode?
Warwick Fairfax:
We talk a lot about crucibles and people's worst day, but this is an interesting example of a business failure. Amy Shippy was somebody that was spectacularly successful. She grew up in an entrepreneurial environment, parents are entrepreneurs, grandparents. It seemed like every relative she had was entrepreneurial in a sense, which is amazing. She got a lot of encouragement.
She started this furniture business, I think in the late '90s, a business that was, back before it was that common, packaged furniture, which you put together once you got it. And then the internet came along in the late '90s and it was very successful. But then around 2012, the recession came and the business went under. And in a sense, at least for a while, it almost broke her. She was almost at a point where literally she couldn't get out of bed. She was angry at, well, probably everybody. Her husband was in the business, everybody from herself, husband, God. She's a person of faith. Just angry, frustrated.
And it sure seemed like she had her identity and success just wrapped up in what she did, so she had to unlearn all this. And she's always going to be an entrepreneur, but I think she's learned some powerful lessons of not to tie up who you are in what you do. I think one of the things we all have to learn is who we are is more than our worst day. It's more than how much money we have or how big a house we have or how successful our business is. It's about our characters, who we are as human beings, from my perspective, created by God.
That's something that Amy had to learn. And it was fascinating, one of the biggest ways she learned that is she was at a retreat that her in-laws had signed her up for before the company went under, before this furniture business went under. She's at this retreat six weeks, I think, before the company would go under. And she met some guy that was a chaplain in hospitals and he said, "Well, why don't you join me?"
Well, eventually, not that long after her business went under, she did. And she realized when you're talking to folks there at the hospital, some are about to suffer permanent loss. Their loved ones are about to die. There's no coming back from that, at least not in this world. And so she realized she suffered loss, but it wasn't permanent loss. And she was grappling with what she should do in life, and should she be a chaplain? And I think in not so many words, it felt like the Lord's saying, "No, I made you to be an entrepreneur and you need to keep going at it." Her husband encouraged her. So many things that you do succeed. Does everything work? No, things happen, but let's get back out there.
And really, that time in that hospital, just seeing people with permanent loss, she was able to get back at it. And she has started a lot of successful businesses. Her macaron business started not that long after her furniture business failed, and then she has other businesses, Blue Poppy Designs, Lottiebelle's. And they may not be as successful in terms of dollars as the previous business, but they make for a very comfortable living. And now, she's able to do what she's so passionate about in Lady BizWiz, which is, she said this is really her calling. She enjoys the businesses that she's in. She said she'll like to get out of them at some point, sell them.
With Lady BizWiz, she comes alongside women entrepreneurs and gives them the practical skills of how to create a business plan, a marketing plan, how to work on one step at a time, rather than focusing on what's it all going to look like in five years. "Okay, let's just try to get to step one, make it profitable. Let's not worry about five-year packaging that you don't have the money for. Let's focus on what you can do now." And she gives them a lot of very practical advice, but from her perspective, women can have a lot of self-doubt and fear. And she gives a very good example of saying with men, if they have 50% of the qualifications for a business, they'll apply. With women, if they don't have 100% of the qualifications, they won't apply. That's her perspective on women in business. So, she's trying to help them understand you don't have to have 100% of everything all together, just if you've got enough for step one, start.
So, she gives them both practical business advice as well as spiritual and just really sole advice to help them be the best they can be. And so this is really her calling and help overcome fear. She's learned so much. And she may not be as successful as she was before in terms of dollars, but in terms of life success, separating your identity from what you do, loving the businesses she has, really enjoying and thriving at helping other women business owners be successful, she is, I would say, more successful in the full meaning of that word. Success in terms of life, spiritual success, business success in the terms of enjoying what she's doing. Maybe less dollars, but she is loving life and really, in particular, loving helping other women business owners be successful and learning to just take it one step at a time. So, she's really thriving in all senses of that word.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. We say it all the time. This is a big spotlight example of it didn't happen to her, it happened for her, her business failing, because there's ebullience in the way that she talks about it. She's energetic, she's happy, she's clearly living her calling, and that's obvious. And that's something that awaits everybody if we bounce forward from our crucibles.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well said.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that, folks, is a perfect place to end this week's episode. Until next time when we are together, please remember, we know crucibles are hard. We've been through them, but we also know they're not the end of your story. In fact, they can be the beginning of a brand new story that leads you to the best destination you can possibly get to, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment, and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Prioritizing rest. Taking the time to take a break. It can sound counterintuitive to living a life of significance, but as we discuss this week, it’s actually critical to it.
Why and how? We discuss several reasons why slowing down can actually speed up your readiness to live a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. And it all starts with remembering the words of superspy Jason Bourne: Rest is a weapon.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. In our life and work, it's so important to have seasons of rest because by taking a break from what we do professionally, or maybe it's a mission that we're devoting our life to, we can focus on family, friends, and hobbies. And as we'll get into, it can actually freshen our thinking at work.
Gary Schneeberger:
Prioritizing rest. Taking the time to take a break. It can sound counterintuitive to living a life of significance, but as we discuss this week, it's actually critical to it. Why and how? We discuss several reasons why slowing down can actually speed up your readiness to live a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And it all starts with remembering the words of super spy Jason Bourne. Rest is a weapon.
Well, here we are again, folks, after ... Right? The first episode after our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles. And was that not ... You don't have to answer right now. Was that not big fun? Yes. I believe it was big fun and big insight as well. But we are coming back and we're coming back with an episode, folks, that this is behind the scenes at Beyond the Crucible that you may not know, that there's really no way you could know.
And that's this. The series that you just heard, Big Screen, Big Crucibles, was actually ... You heard it over the last two months, but it was recorded the two months before that. We recorded that in May and June. And the reason why we recorded it in May and June is the subject of what we're going to be talking about today, or is part of the subject of what we're going to be talking about today, which is the first podcast episode. Today is the first podcast episode since June. I don't know about you, Warwick. I'm feeling a little rusty right now, actually.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. But it's good to get back in the saddle.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. For sure. Let's hope we don't fall off. The subject that we're diving into today, folks, is pressing pause on diving into our usual day-to-day routine. There are times when absolutely work and all those responsibilities are important. And they're always important, but there's also times where rest is important. And that's what we're going to talk about here today. And Warwick, this subject, right? We're talking about this because you, over the course of the summer, after we recorded the summer series, you had been doing some reflecting this summer about why rest is so important. So why did you decide, Warwick? Why did you think about doing this? Our first time back behind the microphones in a couple of months. Why did you decide to really drill down and talk about the power of pausing?
Warwick Fairfax:
So over the summer, we've been in Northern Michigan, about as far North in Northern Michigan as you can get without being in the Upper Peninsula. And we kind of plan this out in advance. So as you're mentioning, we record the summer series in May and June so that in July and August, while our podcasts are coming out ... And it was such a fun series on Big Screen, Big Crucibles, and some great movies we discussed. But we're not actually recording them in July and August, so that gives us an opportunity for a break. And being Australian, I grew up in a culture where it's okay to take a vacation, okay to take a break. You don't have bosses saying, "Say what? You want to take three or four weeks off?" And that's a week, maybe two. So culturally, a little bit different. So when I'm working, I give it 100%, but I believe in just having periods where you are not operating at the same speed, at least in terms of our work life.
So I value this time, as we'll get into, up in Northern Michigan where I'm not the usual full tilt with Beyond the Crucible. And as I thought about the importance of rest, one of the phrases I love is from a character that Robert Ludlum writes about, Jason Bourne. I think many of us have seen the Jason Bourne movies. And there's obviously a series of books behind them. And here's this sort of super secret spy type that does things that nobody else can do. And before he goes into battle, so to speak, or in some mission and somewhere on the planet, he has this expression, which is, "Rest is a weapon."
And so by that, he means if he's going to be up like 24, 48 hours up against the bad guys and trying to accomplish some secret mission, if you will. And without getting into it too far, Jason Bourne is somebody that he tries to do good, but it seems like the whole world is against him. So that's not easy to actually rest. But anyway, the concept is when he's going to be having to be at his best to survive and accomplish his mission, he has to be rested beforehand. So really, if he doesn't rest, it may be a life or death decision. It could cost him his life. So he's a smart guy. And therefore, rest is a weapon. So that phrase has always stuck with me.
Gary Schneeberger:
And the names of those movies, the three original Jason Bourne movies starring Matt Damon were The Bourne Identity, The Bourne Ultimatum, and The Bourne Supremacy. I would add to this, as we talk about this, we're really talking about what Bourne says. We're talking about the Bourne significance, right? We're talking about how to live a life of significance with rest. I think that's what we're going to unpack here as we keep talking.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's really critical. And I think more broadly, in our life and work, it's so important to have seasons of rest because by taking a break from what we do professionally, or maybe it's a mission that we're devoting our life to, we can focus on family, friends, and hobbies. And as we'll get into, it can actually freshen our thinking at work. So sometimes we feel guilty about taking a break. And again, I love America, I'm a dual citizen, Australian and American. But in America, probably more than many other Western countries, taking a break is not as easy a sell. At least traditionally, it wasn't as easy a sell. Like in Australia, they want to take a few weeks off and travel around Europe backpacking, it's like, "Sure. Go ahead." So you've really got to believe in it. Here, it can be a bit of a challenge culturally, but it's just so important to keep ourselves fresh. So sometimes you almost feel like we have to seek permission to rest. We feel guilty about it, but we shouldn't. And that's really, I think, a big theme that we'll be talking about.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And it's interesting that you said earlier, as we were talking, that when you're at work, right? In those seasons when you're ... You give it 100%. And I think what you're going to advocate here as we talk about the importance of rest is we need to give rest ... Strange as it sounds maybe at first hearing, we need to give rest 100%, right? That's critically important that we do it in an active way that does refresh us, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
That's such an important point, Gary. Yeah. Whatever I'm doing, whether I'm working Beyond the Crucible, on a nonprofit board, at least I've been on a couple of nonprofit boards and elder at my church and number of things I'm involved in, I give it 100%. But when I'm on vacation, yes, I'll check email once in a while, but if you're on vacation, you've got to be on vacation. There are some people that go on vacation, they're checking emails every second, they're scheduling five Zoom calls a day, and their family never sees them. That's not vacation and that's not rest. Doesn't mean that you have to go cold turkey, shut off your phone, but you just need to prioritize rest. And you know what works for you. But this being at work while on vacation, that's not rest. And a lot of people do that. They just cannot unplug.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And one of the things that makes it so interesting that we're talking about this is that I used the phrase earlier that rest, pausing to do that is kind of part of the soul, right? It's kind of baked into Beyond the Crucible. Maybe a more accurate way to say it is it's just a part, it's become a part because it's a part of you, and you're the founder of Beyond the Crucible, that rest is part of the brand of Beyond the Crucible, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's interesting. Beyond the Crucible is a reflective brand. And certainly, part of the reason for that is that I'm a reflective person. I call myself a reflective advisor. For me to be at my best, thinking of ways to help people bounce back from their worst days to lead lives of significance, I have to have periods of calm where I can reflect. If I'm running a million miles an hour and stressed out, doing 85 things at once ... As a side note, I'm not a huge believer in multitasking because some people say they can do it, but I don't know, to me, you kind of do everything not as well, but maybe it's me. But all that's to say is if I'm running a million miles an hour and doing 85 things at once or have a lot of balls I'm juggling, I'm not going to be at my best.
I'm not going to be able to reflect and think of what are some ways that people can bounce back from their worst days. I write blogs, we do podcasts together, reflecting on different themes, we prepare discussions that we're going to have with guests. If I'm not in a good reflective space, I will not be a good interviewer for the guests we have. I won't have good points to discuss. It will significantly affect the quality of what we do at Beyond the Crucible and will mean that we're not able to help people bounce back from their worst days and live lives of significance as well as we could. So for me, it's absolutely critical. And I find when there are times when I'm sort of resting and walking in the woods or being a person of faith and my daily Bible study and reflection, maybe it's watching a movie, there's all sorts of things where I'm unplugging from work, ideas will come to me that might have nothing to do with what I'm doing. It might be chi. Rest is so important.
Or as I've been walking in the woods over the summer, I probably thought of three or four or five different ideas that could be future blogs or podcasts. So it just percolates in my brain. I'm not even trying, but by giving your brain a rest, it's amazing what can come up. So I am a reflective person, but if I don't have seasons of rest, it could be over the summer or just during the year in making sure I try to walk every day and have exercise, periods of rest on the weekend, if I'm not doing that, I'm not going to be a very good reflective advisor, reflective person. It will impact my life and the brand. So certainly, for this brand, especially running around at a million miles an hour, it's going to directly affect my ability to help people. So it's critical for me. It's critical for me to be able to help others, which is our mission.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And I'll jump in here as the American in this conversation to say ... Right? Because when that happens, when you go to Northern Michigan and you take that time, the rest of us on the team get a little bit of a break there too. A little bit of rest there too. And I think that's an important distinction. A break sounds like you're just kind of doing nothing, whereas active relaxing is going into those things that ignite you, that bring your soul up on fire and do some ... You're building relationships. You're doing some things like that.
So I'll raise my hand and tell everybody it's a wonderful thing for those of us who aren't accustomed to having two months, in essence, off of not everything that we do, we still worked, but certainly recording podcasts, we weren't [inaudible 00:13:58] over that time, which explains one of the reasons ... That's one of reasons why I'm probably not doing this very well. I'm stumbling over things because I haven't done this in two months. But the rest was worth it. And I'll get back into playing shape here at some point. But that is those of us who aren't accustomed to it embrace it as well. So I just wanted to make sure that was clear.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And thank you for that. And I guess another point I'd like to make is obviously it's important to Beyond the Crucible. And I would say more broadly, I think it's important for the work that we do and whatever that mode is. But I think what we underrate is if we don't have seasons of rest, then we're not going to be at our best to help others, not just at work, at home. How many times do you have the busy male or female executive that come back, the kids want to spend time with mom or dad, and they're absolutely fried because they're always fried? The pressure, the challenges. And sometimes there are things you can't do a whole lot about, but to the degree you can ... And the kids say, "Hey, Mom, Dad. Can you play? Can you throw a ball? Can you ... Let's bake something together, whatever it is."
And said, "No, leave me. No, I'm busy." It's just like, "Give me a break. I don't have time for stuff like this," whatever. We don't want to talk to our kids that way, but when we're fried, we'll say things we really would wish that we didn't. And then eventually, our kids won't ask. I think of that haunting song by Cat Stevens, Cat's in the Cradle. And it was like '60s, '70s. And the dad's busy and the kid's always asking him to play, throw a ball, and the dad says, "Well, I'm super busy right now, but we'll have a good time then where we can ..." Well, it never happens. And so the dad retires and says, "Hey, son. Let's hang out." And the son says, "You know what, Dad? I'm so busy at work. The kids are just all over the place, but we'll do it sometime. We'll have a good time then."
You don't want to live out that song. And so you want to avoid living out that Cat's in the Cradle song. You've got to find ways of having rest, whether it's a summer vacation, whether it's a Saturday, because if you're not at your best, you won't be at your best for your husband, wife, partner, friends, family. I think we underrate how important it is. In theory, we should love our spouse, partner, kids, relatives, friends. If we say we love them, we'll want to be at our best. To be at our best, we've got to find ways of resting and recharge our batteries. Otherwise, it's going to have relational lifelong consequences, not just at work, but in every area of our lives.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. We're about to flip the script a bit, folks, and Warwick's going to ask me a question, but before you do that, I pulled a quote, as I tend to do on these episodes. And this is a perfect time for me to insert this quote. This is a quote from someone named Eleanor Brown. I'm not sure who Eleanor is, but this is what she said about what you're talking about right now. "Rest and self-care are so important. When you take time to replenish your spirit, it allows you to serve others from the overflow." And I love this last line. "You cannot serve from an empty vessel." That's what you've been talking about the last three or four minutes, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such an important point. I think of when you're flying and they give you the safety instructions. "Mom, dad, if you're traveling with a kid, make sure you put the oxygen mask on first before you put it on your kid because you've got to be ... To help your child, you've got to be able to breathe yourself first." So yeah, we're not going to be able to help people, unless we're rested ourselves. And you're right. Help comes out of the overflow of the energy and compassion that we have. And they will tend to erode without rest. I don't care how much you believe in your mission, how much you want to help people. If you don't have seasons of rest, there'll be no overflow to help anybody, whether it's your mission or anybody else. So that's such a great point, is you want that overflow of energy and compassion.
Let's say your kid or spouse, partner has had a terrible day and they want to talk for an hour or two and they want you to just listen. If you're fried, I guarantee you, you won't be able to listen. I said, "You know what? Can we bottom line this? Can you give me the Cliff Notes? I've heard this spiel so many times. I'm really tired of you whining," or as you say in Australia, whinging. "Just get to the point and get over it." We'll say cruel and really hurtful things rather than if we're in a good headspace and a place of rest, then maybe we can listen for an hour or two and just say, "Gosh, I'm so sorry. That sounds so awful. I'm sorry you went through that at work. I'm sorry what your brother and sister said to you. I know that's an old wound. I'm so sorry." You can't do that if you don't have seasons of rest, which gives you hopefully the opportunity to have some level of compassion, ability to listen to those we love the most.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So let's flip the script a bit, as you suggest, Gary. So Gary, you wrote this really good blog with some great insights in June. And it's called Finding Peace in the Heat: 4 Ways Summer Can Help You Heal From a Crucible. And you talk quite a bit about the meaning of rest in that blog. So talk a bit about what is the meaning of rest?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting, Warwick, that I wrote this actually in May. It came out in June before we ever started recording the series, before either one of us was on that little bit of a sabbatical break over the months that the series ran. So it's kind of like ... It's very fortuitous that that came out because they're connected. What you're talking about, what I talked about here back several months ago is all very much connected. And it's interesting that they're connected from two different points of the journey that we talk about, right? We're talking here on this episode really about making sure that taking rest to ensure that you can live out your life of significance the way that you want to. I, back in June, wrote about helping you overcome a crucible by taking rest. And one of the things that was really critical to what I wrote, I thought, was this idea of we need to redefine rest.
Just think about that for a minute, folks. To redefine rest. It's more than binging Netflix, right? It's more than collapsing into bed early. It's more than just kind of hanging out and looking at this ... It's more than whiling away the hours. It's more than, quote, unquote, "Wasting time". It's about what fills you, not just about what numbs you. That, I think, is rest with a purpose. And I think it works, as I said, on both ends of this continuum. It works as we're looking to do what we did this summer, which is to rest in order to carry out our lives of significance more fully, but it also works to help us overcome crucibles. It also works to help us slow down and to focus on the healing that we need. And one of the things I wrote in the blog, and I'll pose these questions out to you, our listeners and viewers, is ask yourself these questions.
What kind of rest do I need today? There's physical rest, right? Like naps and sleep. But there's also emotional rest. Setting boundaries is a good example. Creative rest, reading poetry, painting. Warwick talked a little bit about that. And spiritual rest. He talked about that too. Prayer, meditation, silence. And then this part, this sounds weird. It sounds weird for me to say this because I'm like, "This is the most important part," because I wrote it, but this part is really important, and I think I was inspired to do so. And that is this, schedule rest like it matters because it does, right? I don't think we can say that enough. To schedule rest is important because if you don't schedule it, the time to do it's going to pass you by, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
These are such important points. Just touching on that last point, we scheduled this rest in the summer a few months ago. We talked. I don't know if it was March, April, before. "Okay. We've done a summer movie series the last few summers. Are we going to do one? Okay. What's it going to be?" And then we figured it out. Summer movie series based on some of the best crucible movies. And then, okay, so we want to figure out a way to record it in May and be done by June. So it's going to be a little intense in May and June. And it was. Lot of work.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, I would say it was more than a little. It was quite intense, right? And we had some ... Right? And not only was it intense, but the margin for error. This didn't work and that didn't work and something else happened. It was hard, but boy, was it worth it, right? When we got to the end of it, it was worth it. Not just because we got to rest afterwards, but because of what we created.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well said. Well said. Yeah. I spoke in my native Australian tongue or Australian English heritage. So as I jokingly say if an Australian says, or an Englishman, "Yeah. How's your business going?" "Oh, not bad." That means it's lights out. It's doing tremendously. If you say, "Ah, how's it going?" "Oh, we've bit of spot of bother," that would be kind of English. That means you're about to go bankrupt. Yeah. When I say it was a little intense, that means, boy, it was very intense.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Indeed.
Warwick Fairfax:
I translated that into American. So yes, I can't help myself. A little cultural Australian there. But yeah, it was intense. But the point about why we did it is, yes, we like a summer movie series, but it enables us to do a whole bunch of them together in ways that are a bit more challenging with regular guests. And it's a fun thing to do, but it means in July and August, yes, we're listening to the podcast and just previewing it, but it's much less work where we scheduled this rest months in advance.
We spend summer in Northern Michigan from basically first week in June to first, second week at September. That's something we schedule every summer. We figure out family that's going to come. We schedule all of that. So that doesn't happen by accident. If you're going to go on a trip somewhere with family, you schedule that. You'll have to book air tickets, book places to go. Spontaneous can work, but these days, spontaneous means you may not get into the place you want to get to. And it also means the price of the air ticket will be astronomical, unless a miracle happens. If you decide today, in two hours, let's jump on a plane, it can work, but the price will be astronomical. So all that's to say is it's important to schedule rest. And I like so many of the points you have here.
Yeah. You can binge Netflix, and that's okay, but it's like you want it to be things that sort of fill you up, not just numb you. Purpose is everything. And what are the things you like to do? Maybe it's walking in the woods. Maybe it's just going on an adventure or a hike. Maybe it's you like painting. There's all sorts of different ways of taking rest. Maybe you've got some challenging relationships. Okay. So maybe you want a season where you don't want back-to-back-to-back visits with people who are really emotionally challenging. You want to help them. But if your tank just keeps running dry because you just thought, "Let me schedule every challenging family member and friend I can have. We'll do back-to-back for about seven weeks, but just let's just go," it doesn't mean you don't care, but by the time you enter the last weeks of that, you'll have nothing left.
You'll do damage to those relationships. It's just you have to be smart. So it doesn't mean that you don't care, but create boundaries with relationships, as you put it. What are those things that help provide you spiritual rest? If you're a person of faith, like Gary and I are, yes, there might be seasons of prayer, meditation, some people do fasts, or silent retreats. Different people of faith have different rhythms, but find what works for you. Maybe you want to go for a weekend away or a week away with some guys or some women friends. There are different ways of having rest. Think about what are the rhythms that work for you, but plan it, be intentional about it, and don't just kind of, "Oh, I'll do it sometime." Plan it, schedule it, and reflect on what are the types of rest that really fill you up. And we're all different, so it'll be different for everybody.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So folks, if you want to know more about in depth the blog that was written for summer, that blog is called Finding Peace in the Heat: 4 Ways Summer Can Help You Heal From a Crucible. So that's the beginning end of our journey. And now, Warwick, let's talk a little bit about ... You've identified four points as we're walking out our lives of significance, four ways that rest benefits us as we're doing that. And the first one is this, it helps prevent burnout. How so?
Warwick Fairfax:
So it's easy to get burnt out at work. And sometimes we can get burnt out with the business or mission that they were off-the-charts passionate about, that we think will truly help people. And we think, "Well, I can't afford to take a break. There are people hurting. If I take a break, that means it's one less person that's going to get helped. I can't afford to quit. If they're suffering their challenges, they don't quit. So why should I quit?" You can convince yourself how, "I have a duty to just not quit and run 24/7," but we need to realize for us to truly be able to help people, especially if it's a mission we're off-the-charts passionate about, we have to take a break because if you don't take a break, not only will your thinking be less creative, you'll start snapping at team members that work with you. "Hey, this is too important. Okay? Do you have to take an hour lunch? How about 15 minutes? How about a half hour? Come on. Let's get with it. That presentation you did, it was terrible. Come on."
We tried to convince some investors or we were trying to get some partners on board who will help turbocharge our mission. "That was a solid B+, but anything short of A+ means we're not doing what we need to." You can be just really like a tyrant. And people will leave and say that, again, "I love the mission, but, gosh, you've turned into a jerk." They might say to you, "You just ... You're impossible to work with. You're so passionate. You're just making life miserable for the rest of us here." So burnout can really ... It can torpedo the greatest mission and the greatest business. You will just flame out and people will leave. So if you really care about your team and you care about your mission and business, we often say it's too important to fail, where your mission and business is too important for you not to have a rest. That should be the way you should look at it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And it's interesting you said early on in what you were just saying that this idea of quitting. And it's important to note rest is not quitting, right? Rest is just resting. And I think a lot of us have this guilt that comes with rest. If I rest, I've stopped forward motion and I'm abandoning the journey or I'm abandoning the mission or the goal. And that's not true. If it's done intentionally, again, in a way that's designed to build you up, to feed you, it's actually helping you along your journey, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's true. And I think in some cultures, and it's not just the US, but there can be a cultural context making it harder to rest. Could be like, "Oh, it's easy for some. Wish I could take a break." And some people, their jobs are in a situation where it's harder to take a break. Doesn't mean it's nice to put a guilt trip on you, but it's like, "It's nice for some." I remember I was fortunate enough to go to Harvard Business School. And a lot of folks who go there work in investment banking or management consulting firms for a couple years before business school. I remember hearing stories from people in their 20s in investment banking. If you left for about 7:00 or eight o'clock at night, that's a half day.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
10:00 or 11:00, okay, it's beginning to get acceptable. So you'd have people saying, "Oh, half day. Oh, that's nice for you. Oh, you took a weekend off. What's a weekend? There's no such thing as a weekend. You work 24/7 here." So it's just ... There certainly used to be this corporate pressure and cultural pressure that you do not take a break. And so that makes it harder when you feel like you're going to be guilt-tripped by your buddies. And they might find it funny needling, but it's not helpful. But you just got to realize or say to yourself, "Other people can say what they want. I'm not going to bow to cultural pressure or needling from my buddies."
It's like, "I believe rest is important for my family, for my business. And if I'm not doing this, then I'm not going to be at my best. And if people want to tease me, get on my case, have at it. I'm not going to just bow to needling or cultural pressure." You just got to commit to what you believe in. If you believe rest is important, don't let other people ... Guilt trips on you change the way you want to lead your life. It makes no sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. The second point, the second benefit that you have pulled out, Warwick, about rest is that seasons of rest reduce the possibility of having your identity completely wrapped up in what you do. We've talked about this, you've talked about this quite a bit on the podcast, quite a bit in your blogs. Why is that so important, not to have your identity caught up in what it is that you do? And why does rest, does being intentional about rest, why does that help you avoid that?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's very easy for many of us to have our identity wrapped up in what we do. You feel like, "Okay. There's another rung. I'm vice president. I'm a director. I want to get to that next level." And nothing wrong with ambition and wanting to get to the next level, but when you have your whole identity defined as getting to that next level, you're just consumed with the upward trajectory. Maybe you have this nonprofit you think that will help so many people, and your identity is all wrapped up in it. And it's just very dangerous because when your whole life is defined by your business or mission, you'll tend to make poor decisions and you'll certainly find that resting, "Oh, I can't rest." But you've got to say to yourself, "Who I am is not defined by what I do, nor is who I am defined by how many people I can help."
You can get caught in the, "Hey, I know this other nonprofit that's helping twice as many people as we do. There's another business that's three times as successful as I am." The comparison game will make it impossible to have rest. And you'll just be consumed by what you do. So you've got to make a decision to say, "My identity is not going to be wrapped up in what I do. And therefore, I am also going to take time to rest to recharge my batteries." Because if your identity is wrapped up in what you do, it's like, "Well, if I take a break, and then we won't be as successful, we won't be able to help as many people."
That's part of what fuels the, "I can't take a break," as well as, "I'll get ragged on by my buddies." There's all sorts of causes, but one is the identity trap. So you've got to say to yourself, "My identity is not wrapped up in what I do. I'll do the best I can. And I'll help the people I can. And I'm not going to be defined by the size of the mission, the size of the business. And for me to be at my best, I'm going to have to take a break and have a rest." And it really ... Taking a break forces us to focus on other things, such as friends, families, or even favorite hobbies. I think it's so important to be able to do that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Right. Your third point that you ... As we talk through this, what are we going to talk about? Your third point dovetails nicely off what you just said, and that's the third reason to press into rest is that seasons of rest help us be more creative and give us renewed energy for the mission that we care so much about, right? That thing that drives us when we're working. Rest helps us strengthen that. Helps strengthen that mission. Talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's so true. When I think of being up here in Northern Michigan for the summer and the pace of life shifts, the things to do is ... We'll get into, but it's less of Beyond the Crucible. So as I'm walking in the woods or I'm praying or we're out on the water or whatever it happens to be, I'm not thinking about Beyond the Crucible, but ideas will percolate in my head. I've written down, I think, as I mentioned, five or six different ideas for blogs and podcasts. And so ideas come. That by giving ourselves a break, it can give us renewed energy for the mission. I really try to live what I believe. And as much as I love Beyond the Crucible and believe in its mission to help people bounce back from their worst day and lead a life of significance, I try to make sure that my identity is not defined by it. As a person of faith, my identity is in Christ.
It's in my faith. It's not in what I do. What I do is an outgrowth of what I believe, but it's not who I am. And so I really try to live that back to identity. But by having this season of rest, it gives me renewed energy. And all sorts of ideas percolate from it. Could be a walk in the woods. I've had times when I've been meditating on scripture, and out of left field, an idea comes from what we do at Beyond the Crucible, not related to what I'm praying about. I don't know how that happens. Maybe it's just me. I don't know. But it's when your brain-
Gary Schneeberger:
It's not-
Warwick Fairfax:
... is focused on other things. Or it could be a hobby. It could be a bike ride. Or I'm not a woodwork, but some people love having a wood shop and making things. It could be all sorts of things, but it really gives this renewed energy and renewed creativity. It's like you believe in your business, you want to be more creative, more energetic, think of ideas to take what you're doing to the next level, whatever that might be, and have a season of rest. It'll be better for your business and, well, your friends and family. It sounds kind of intuitive. How can having a rest be better for my business or mission?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, it can and it is.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And then the fourth point that you thought through while you were having your rest this summer, Warwick, was this, rest gives us the opportunity to find gratitude and joy in our family, our friends, and even in the small things in life. And this one really is a big one here as we're talking about rest, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's so true, Gary. I do find when I'm resting, I am able to be more grateful. And I purposely do try to be grateful. If I'm walking in the woods, often when I walk, it'll be with my wife, Gail, or with my family, but sometimes other things are going on and it's just me walking in the woods and I might be listening to music. Could be classical music, worship music, all sorts of different things, which I love doing. But I'll often think about how grateful ... I'll think about, "I can't believe we get to be up in this beautiful place in nature and walks through the woods." And I'll think of just how grateful I am for my faith and have God, Christ in my life. I think of how grateful I am to have my wife. We've been married 35 years or more. I think of my kids.
My older son got engaged earlier in the summer, actually up here in Northern Michigan, which was super special. I think about that a lot because she's a wonderful young woman. So I have a whole bunch of things that I am grateful for and I just run through them, and it just fills me with joy. When we're out on the water, I just think of how grateful I am just to be able to do that and just the beautiful scenery and just the warmth of the sun and being with friends and family. Yeah. There's so many activities up here that just fill me with joy, but rest gives us an opportunity to think of all the things that we're grateful for and just the joy in the little things of life. We have kayaks up here. And when it's calm, which is not always because it is Lake Michigan after all, but when it's calm, [inaudible 00:42:47] it's sunny, warm, calm, let's go on the kayak.
And I did rowing in high school and my college at Oxford. So I feel like I kind of know what I'm doing a bit with kayaking. I may not, but I have that feeling. And I love that. I'm just paddling along and just around the shores here. Where we are in Northern Michigan, it's just so beautiful, just seeing the boats, the houses. Just the water's incredibly clear here, so seeing the rocks underneath and the water lap against the kayak. And it's so restful, but it just fills me with such joy. Just a simple thing, paddling in a kayak. But it's all those things, they really recharge your batteries.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And in this period over the summer, I had the opportunity, right? My wife, Kelly, and I went to International Falls, Minnesota. I live in Wisconsin. So International Falls, Minnesota, folks, if you're not aware, it's both the icebox of the nation, it says, that's its motto, the icebox of the nation, but it's also at the very corner. It's on the Canadian border. And someone very special to my wife and I, a young woman who I've called for, gosh, 15 years now, my heart daughter, someone who I came alongside when she was younger and filled ... Was blessed to be able to fill a little bit of a father figure role in her life. We went up and visited her and her husband and their three kids in International Falls. And we did ...
We didn't kayak. We canoed. And I did not do that in college. And I was not very good at it on Rainy Lake up in International Falls, but it was still fun, right? Those kinds of things, you can't ... The things that happen there, both when you're having fun and you're just laughing and joking and doing things. We played this word game's kind of like Scrabble. It's called Upwords. And their middle son, Ben, who's named after me, Benjamin Gary Kershman is his name, right? So my namesake, right? Ben's playing the game. And Ben, very, very thoughtful about words, comes up with a word that isn't really a word. And it's not offensive, but it's just funny. And it just became like a running joke for us when we were there.
It's those kinds of things that you'll never ever forget that happened. Those are in the blog that we were talking about that I wrote. I wrote this line, "To find small anchors of joy when you're trying to bounce back from a crucible and you're enjoying rest." And I think you can find small anchors of joy when you're doing this that we're talking about as you're walking out your life of significance. And I tell you, I came back from that trip to International Falls, Minnesota, energized. My tank was at overflowing full. And that makes me better at everything that I do, both professionally and as a husband and stepfather here in the house, as a friend, as a brother, as all those things that I am. And I wouldn't have been able to do that, frankly, if you didn't have this idea every summer to take a couple of months off to go to Northern Michigan. If you didn't go to Northern Michigan, I wouldn't have gone to Northern Minnesota. So that benefits me as well. Yeah. You cannot overestimate how important those moments, those small anchors of joy are, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And I love that phrase that you used in the blog, "Small anchors of joy." I think I was watching a movie the other day. And one of the characters said, "Life is made up of just moments and memories." And it's true. What are the moments you're trying to build? I guess another way of saying good moments would be anchors of joy. Well, if you're running at a million miles an hour, that's going to be hard. Talk about sitting back, looking at the roses, smelling the flowers and all that. Well, you can't do that when you're running super fast. You wouldn't have been able to go to Northern Minnesota, whether it was Beyond the Crucible or other things you're involved in if it's like, "No, I can't afford to do this. I'm doing A, B, and C. And I'm flying here, there, and everywhere." Or whether it's us here in Northern Michigan. Most of my wife, Gail's family is from the Midwest.
And so they were within a few hours of here, which we live in Maryland most of the year, but we spend our summers here. Well, they come here and they love it between the boating and kayaking and all different activities and bicycle riding and just visiting some of the beautiful towns here and the walks we have in nature at various places. It's just a wonderful place. But that wouldn't be possible if we didn't sort of allocate this as a season of rest. And when family come, I'm able to be present rather than say, "I'm sorry. I'm doing a podcast every day this week and writing blogs. And enjoy."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's not going to bless my wife or my kids. And so you've got to ... I've got to be present while I'm here.
Gary Schneeberger:
And one of the reasons that you have to be present is because while everybody who's watching and listening knows you as the founder of Beyond the Crucible and the host of this program, in Northern Michigan, around your family, you're known as what?
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, it's kind of like the resort manager because it's just us. In a resort, you've got a whole bunch of people to help. Well, it's just the two of us. So when we come here, we've got to open the house up and make sure everything's working, which usually it is, but sometimes it's not. So got some house management things to take care of, people to call to fix stuff. But whether it's boats, kayaks, we have a couple jet skis, which a lot of folks enjoy, Gail's family and all. And there's just a lot to get done, make sure everything's working, and make sure everybody knows how to operate everything. Yeah. It's not like we're just sitting back, reading a book all summer. There are seasons of that, but there's also seasons of hosting people and helping people get from A to B.
"And gosh, we've got 11 people here from Gail's family and our kids. What are we going to do? Well, let's see. Let's go ride bicycles. Well, the bicycle trail is 20 minutes away and we've got to get bikes from A to B. How's that going to happen?" So putting bikes in the back of cars and back on bike carriers. "And okay. What are we going to eat?" So it's different level of ... It's not really work, but it's different level of activity, just making sure that people are cared for and activities are planned and you can make things happen. Yeah. There is ... I don't want to say work, but different kinds of activity, different things to do, but it's not Beyond the Crucible. Some people might say, "Gee, it's summer. I'm going to take a couple weeks off to build a deck."
Well, doesn't sound like rest, but it's different levels of activity. It's resting from your normal job, at least for those who ... There's some that people actually really like building decks. I have a good friend that building decks or going on stuff with Samaritan's Purse to help people build houses in flood-damaged places, he finds that therapeutic. That's rest for him. It energizes him. That wouldn't be me. But for some people, building houses and decks, it's just therapy.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It's not my testimony either, Warwick. So Warwick, that landed the plane on the conversation that we're having here about the importance of rest and redefining rest in our lives, especially as we're walking out our lives of significance. What are some takeaways that came to you? And I know we haven't prepared this in advance because all this, folks, was kind of like a by the seat of the pants. So Warwick had these thoughts and we just kind of went with it, which is kind of fun for us. So how would you sum this up for folks? What are the takeaways you'd like to see them walk away from here with?
Warwick Fairfax:
I think the starting place is we often feel guilty about even thinking about having rest. Little easy in Australia. A little harder here and in some other countries. Or you might have friends that you know are going to tease us, "Oh, that's great. You can have a rest. And I can't. And hey, while you're having rest, I'm going to be plowing forward in my job and career. And so see you. I'll be way ahead of you while you're just sitting back resting and kind of doing nothing on the beach or whatever you do." So we can guilt trip ourselves into thinking, "I can't afford to have a break. If I have a break, there might be other people that will get ahead of me, the people that never take a break. I won't get that promotion at work."
Or it may be, "Boy, that business or mission I'm doing, I'm so off-the-chart passionate about it. The people I help, that they can't afford for me to take a break." But we can just guilt trip ourselves into thinking, "I can't take a break." But we need to realize, in the words of Jason Bourne, that rest is a weapon. If we care about our family, if we care about our coworkers, if we care about the people we want to help, we have to find ways of taking a break, whether it's taking a Saturday off, a weekend off, or a couple months off in the summer. When I say, "Take a couple months off," everybody's in a different situation, but find ways of having rest because if you don't, you won't be at your best and you'll probably start hurting your family, friends. Thinking of it positively, when we take a break, we'll be better with our families and friends.
We'll be more creative, more enthusiastic at work. We'll probably treat our coworkers better, those that work with us. And I think as you put it, Gary, in your blog, we're talking about small anchors or anchors of joy. We can think about all the things we're grateful for, our families, our spouse, partner, kids, friends, the work we do, and just find joy in a walk in the woods, find joy being on the water, find joy for those that like woodwork, building something in their wood shop. Wouldn't be Gary and I. But there are some [inaudible 00:54:18] that enjoy that, from what I've read about and know.
But none of that happens without rest. So if you feel like what you do is important and the people that you're with, friends and family, are important, if those things are important, your work, your mission, your friends, your family, if they're all important, you have to find a way to rest. Forget the guilt trips. Forget what other people might say. Forget what the negative voices inside you are saying. Make rest a priority. The people you're around or the work you do is too important for you not to rest. Just do it. Find a way. Commit to having rest.
Gary Schneeberger:
You're not out of practice, Warwick. It's been a couple months since we've done this, and you just got a perfect 10-point landing there on the episode. Folks, as we often do when we do episodes like this, and they're normally based on one of Warwick's blogs, but since this one is only based like about a third on a blog that I wrote at the start of summer, I'm just going to ... Rather than do three reflection questions, I'm going to do one because it's the most important, I think, reflection question. And that's this, how can you ... Think about this, folks. How can you redefine rest as you pursue your life of significance? Right? How can you redefine rest? We've been talking this whole episode about redefining rest, what it really means, what it really looks like when you do it. And then commit to doing one of the ideas that you come up with on a regular basis.
One of the things you heard Warwick say, as we're talking through this episode, was while he's resting, he's like, "Oh, and here's an idea for a blog I could write. Here's an idea for this I could do. And here's an idea for this I could do." As you lean into your rest, what are the ideas that you come up with on a regular basis? And how can you use those things to find joy in your life and accomplish other things? And that, folks, will end our first episode back. We did okay, Warwick. Our first episode back from our summer series.
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed.
Gary Schneeberger:
So remember, folks, we will be back next week. And we do understand. We understand how hard crucibles are. Warwick's been through them. I've been through them. But we also know they're not the end of your story. And we've had so many guests on who've talked about how they're not the end of your story. They can be the beginning of your story if you learn the lessons from them and apply those lessons as you move forward in your life of significance.
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