Our Beyond the Crucible summer podcast series, BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES, has explored (and will continue exploring for another month) the ways in which powerful films can inspire and equip us to overcome adversity.
Each movie we chose for the series presents characters facing high-stakes hardships – crucibles, in our parlance – and emerging stronger because they leaned into the lessons those setbacks and failures taught them. Let’s take a deeper-dive look into three of those movies and the insights they offer us to not let our worst day define us.
Unbroken – The Power of Perseverance
In Unbroken, the dramatization of Louis Zamperini’s remarkable true story, we see him endure unbelievable hardships during World War II without giving up. Zamperini survives a plane crash and 47 days adrift at sea, only to be captured and tortured in a Japanese prison camp. Yet through every beatdown and desperate low, he refuses to let his captors defeat his will. He refuses to be broken.
What keeps Zamperini going under such crushing circumstances? One key is his mindset. He clings to a simple motto taught by his brother: “If you can take it, you can make it.” This phrase becomes his lifeline during captivity, a reminder that endurance itself is victory.
At one point, a fellow prisoner encourages Louis that “We can beat them by making it to the end of the war alive” – meaning their triumph will come through outlasting the torment with sheer endurance. This outlook turns survival into a form of resistance. Zamperini’s persevering attitude – take it and make it – allows him to withstand horrendous torture and deprivation without losing hope.
Perhaps most importantly, Unbroken shows that perseverance is not a one-time choice but a daily discipline. There are moments when Louis is on the brink of despair, yet he finds strength in remembering his purpose (like returning home with honor) and the people rooting for him. Each day he survives is a day he “wins” against his captors.
In our own lives, few of us will face trials as extreme as Zamperini’s WWII ordeal. But the principle of perseverance applies to any crucible we encounter – be it a health battle, career setback or personal loss. Perseverance means refusing to quit even when circumstances are painfully hard. It means getting up one more time than we fall, holding on a little longer, and believing that if we can endure today, we can find a better tomorrow.
Louis Zamperini’s story illustrates that maintaining hope and grit through hardship can ultimately lead to triumph. His unbroken spirit invites us to ask: What challenges in my life require the “never give up” attitude? If we can foster that kind of resilience, we too can emerge from our trials stronger and unbroken.
Rudy – Never Give Up on Your Dream
The film follows Daniel “Rudy” Ruettiger, a working-class young man whose one big dream is to play football for the University of Notre Dame. It’s a goal as audacious as it is unlikely – Rudy is undersized, lacks natural athletic ability and doesn’t have the grades or money to get into Notre Dame. Friends, family and practically everyone tell him it’s impossible. In fact, the people closest to Rudy often discourage him from pursuing that dream. His father gently but firmly urges him to abandon the “crazy” idea; his older brother mocks him for aiming too high.
Yet Rudy refuses to quit. His unwavering determination in the face of naysayers is the heartbeat of the movie. He works grueling jobs and studies relentlessly at a junior college (after multiple rejections from Notre Dame) to earn admission. Even when others laugh at him, Rudy keeps his eye on the goal.
In time, that dogged persistence pays off – Rudy transfers to Notre Dame, makes the practice squad for the football team and after two years of being pummeled by bigger, faster players, he finally earns a chance to dress for one game in 1975. In the film’s emotional finale (based, like Unbroken, on a true story), Rudy gets in for one play and records a quarterback sack as the stadium erupts in chants of his name. It’s a brief moment of glory, but it represents years of sweat and an indomitable spirit.
One of the most powerful messages in Rudy is how he handles doubt and discouragement. Rather than internalize the skepticism of others, Rudy uses it as fuel to push harder. He proves that even if no one else believes in your dream, you owe it to yourself to believe.
The takeaway for us is straightforward: don’t give up on your dreams, even if the world tells you to. Whatever your “Notre Dame” is – a career goal, a personal project, a life ambition – if it truly matters to you, if it will fuel your life of significance, keep pursuing it with all the grit you can muster. Yes, be prepared for obstacles and doubters; as Rudy shows, the path to a dream is often anchored in frustration and tribulation.
But Rudy’s story confirms that persistence can turn the tide. In real life, just as in the reel life of the movie, you may find that the journey is long and hard – but the victory, when it comes, will be that much more meaningful and impactful because of all the struggles you overcame.
Rudy’s hard-won triumph urges each of us to ask: What dream have I put on hold, and how can I start pursuing it despite the obstacles? Your dream may not be easy, but as Rudy would remind us, it’s worth every ounce of effort. Never quit – the next try might be the one that makes the difference.
Les Miserables – The Fuel of Forgiveness
Unlike the physical battles of Unbroken or Rudy, the central crucible in Les Misérables is a moral and emotional one: former prisoner Jean Valjean’s struggle to overcome hatred, guilt and the relentless punishment of society. His journey illustrates how forgiving others – and ourselves – can break the chains of the past and light a path to redemption.
When we first meet Valjean, he is hardened by years of unjust imprisonment and rejection. Fate, however, puts him at the mercy of Bishop Myriel, a kindly clergyman. In a pivotal scene, Valjean, desperate and bitter, steals silver from the bishop and is caught by police. It seems he’s doomed to return to prison. But in an act of stunning mercy, the bishop lies to save Valjean, insisting the silver was a gift – and even gives him two additional silver candlesticks. He tells Valjean he has “bought [his] soul for God,” urging him to use the silver to become an honest man.
This moment of mercy hits Valjean like a thunderbolt. Overwhelmed by such undeserved grace, he undergoes a profound change of heart. He chooses to start anew, eventually building a life of significance as a virtuous businessman and mayor under a new identity. Les Misérables shows that being forgiven can free a person to redefine themselves for the better – for themselves and for society. Valjean learns to forgive himself for his past as he experiences the healing power of another’s compassion.
Forgiveness in Les Misérables is not portrayed as easy or soft; it’s portrayed as revolutionary and deeply powerful. Later in the story, Valjean has a chance to take revenge on his longtime pursuer, Inspector Javert – a rigid policeman who has hounded Valjean for decades for breaking parole. In the midst of a political uprising, Javert is captured and his fate put in Valjean’s hands. Rather than settle the score, Valjean surprises Javert by sparing his life and letting him go free.
Javert, who lives by the law with zero mercy, is thrown off by this act of forgiveness – it becomes his crucible to bear. In fact, he finds Valjean’s mercy so unthinkable that he cannot reconcile it with his worldview – tragically, Javert ends his own life because he is unable to live with the implications of such radical mercy. The lesson for us is that forgiveness can be a path to liberation. When we forgive someone who hurt us – or forgive ourselves for mistakes – we release the crippling hold of anger, bitterness and guilt. Valjean’s life shows that forgiveness isn’t about excusing wrong or forgetting pain; it’s about not letting those wrongs and pains define our future. By forgiving, Valjean breaks a cycle of hatred and becomes a force for good, caring for Cosette (the orphaned daughter of one of his former factory workers, Fantine) and spreading love wherever he can.
Forgiveness turns his trial into triumph – the grave trials (imprisonment, poverty, persecution) forge in Valjean a spirit of compassion that lights up many other lives. Meanwhile, Javert’s fate is a cautionary tale: an inability to forgive or accept grace leaves one stuck. Forgiveness – difficult as it may be – is often the only way to move forward. It doesn’t mean forgetting or condoning harm, but rather refusing to let the hurt dictate our lives any longer.
Ultimately, Les Misérables teaches that practicing mercy and forgiveness can lead to personal freedom and healing. Whether it’s forgiving someone who wronged you or extending compassion to yourself, letting go of bitterness unlocks the possibility of new beginnings. Ask yourself: Is there someone I need to forgive – including myself? By choosing forgiveness, you’re not letting the offender off the hook as much as freeing your own heart from the weight of hatred. It is, as the film shows, the key to turning misery into hope. In our crucibles of life, forgiveness can be the bridge from trial to triumph.
Reflection
Think of a challenge you are facing now (or have faced recently) that truly tests your endurance. How might you apply an “unbroken” mindset of perseverance to this situation? What would “not giving up” look like in practice, and what small step can you take today to keep going despite the difficulties?
What personal dream or goal have you put on hold or almost given up on because others have discouraged you or because it feels “impossible”? What is one action you can commit to that will move you closer to that dream this week?
Is there someone in your life, or something within yourself, that you haven’t forgiven that might be holding you back? What would it mean for you to finally let go of that anger, hurt or regret?
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
You’ve heard us talk a lot over the years at Beyond the Crucible about the power of forgiveness — and that’s one of the core themes of our discussion this week of LES MISERABLES, the fourth film in our summer series BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES.
Everyone in the movie experiences a crucible, but those who receive and then extend mercy and forgiveness to others are the ones who find lives of significance. Those too rigid to see the best in others, or in themselves — like the prison guard and policeman Javert — wind up — as one of the American translations of the film’s title puts it — The Miserable Ones.
Dive deeper into your personal narratives with our BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES guided journal, meticulously crafted to enhance your experience with our podcast series exploring cinema’s most transformative crucible stories. This journal serves as a dedicated space for introspection, inviting you to connect the profound journeys of on-screen characters with the pivotal moments that have shaped your own life.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
That gift would lead Valjean to being a man of grace and mercy. Grace and mercy was shown to him, and he indeed showed that to others. He looks after Fantine's daughter, Cosette, after Fantine dies; he shows mercy and forgiveness to Javert, a man who would never show any mercy and forgiveness to Valjean or anybody.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've heard us talk a lot over the years of Beyond the Crucible about the power of forgiveness, and that's one of the core themes of our discussion this week of Les Miserables: the fourth film in our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles. Everyone in the movie experiences a crucible, but those who receive and then extend mercy and forgiveness to others are the ones who find lives of significance.
Those too rigid to see the best in others or in themselves, like the Prison Guard and policeman, Javert, wind up as one of the American translations, of the film's title puts it, The Miserable Ones. Welcome, friends, to another episode of Beyond the Crucible. You are in the midst of our, we are in the midst of our special summer series, Big Screen, big Crucibles, where we examine films and the crucible experiences in films that characters go through to help you navigate your own crucibles.
We're doing this again. You may remember, if you think back, this is the third time that we've done a summer series on movies, and so for eight weeks this summer, we're going to do it again. This is week four, so we're halfway through with this episode. We're taking a look at films with a wide variety of crucibles: insightful lessons they can teach us about how not only to bounce back from those crucibles, but on casting a vision for charting a course to move beyond those crucibles.
Our film this week is, and I ask you forgive, I beg your forgiveness before I say it, because Warwick has a very cool accent, I have a Midwestern accent, so when I say our movie, it's not going to sound nearly as cool coming out of our mouth. Stay tuned, Warwick will make it sound great, but our film this week, in all seriousness, is Les Miserables. The movie came out in 2012, and here's the synopsis of the film.
In 19th century France, Jean Valjean, who, for decades, has been hunted by the ruthless policeman, Javert, after breaking parole, agrees to care for a traumatized factory worker's daughter. The decision changes their lives forever. That sounds pretty interesting, doesn't it? It is. Stay tuned. Warwick, first question, as always on the summer series to you is, as I said, this is the third time we're back at the theater.
We're looking at movies again, why? What is it about film that is so revelatory about our crucible experiences and what are you hoping that listeners and viewers get from this series in our discussion here?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary. We both love movies, and we've enjoyed looking at movies from a Beyond the Crucible perspective. Movies typically portray a protagonist who is facing significant challenges which they seek to overcome. We've covered movie heroes, action heroes, sports heroes, and we've also looked at last summer, at the American Film Institute's top 100 movies.
This year, we thought we'd look at movies that were some of the best ones that showed people overcoming often unimaginable crucibles, obstacles you would think that there's no way back from. Not only did they get beyond their crucible, they also led a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. The movies we're going to be doing this summer and looking at are truly great movies with incredible lessons for us all.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, before we get started, it's important for you to know a couple of things before we dive into the discussion. First, interestingly, this is the only movie we're discussing in our series of eight that is not based on a true story. It's based on a successful stage musical that was itself based on the 1862 French novel, Les Miserables, by Victor Hugo. Now, having said that, it depicts real life events, like the French Revolution, but the individuals who are in the film, they are fictional.
It's just kind of interesting, that out of eight movies, without even knowing it, we picked seven based on a true story. This one is based on true events in history, but it is fictional. That's interesting. It's also good to note, for those listening in watching who don't speak French, like me, that over the years, the title for American audiences has been tweaked a bit.
Les Miserables has been presented to American audiences sometimes as the Miserables, sometimes as the wretched, sometimes as The Miserable Ones, The Poor Ones, The Wretched Poor, the Victims, and The Dispossessed. That can sound depressing. Let me tell you, please, in all seriousness, let me tell you this, as this discussion goes on, as you hear more about the movie, as you watch the movie, if this encourages you to watch the movie, it ends on a very high note, and there are true moments of joy and elation in this film.
That's my disclaimer. We get our first glimpse work of the misery and wretchedness, the crucibles, in our terms, of the central character in the opening scene. It's 1815, the onscreen graphic tells us, 26 years after the French Revolution. We see scores, maybe hundreds of emaciated men, doing hard labor in a downpour. The one the camera focuses on most intently is the chief protagonist of the film, who we will come to know as Jean Valjean. He's spent 19 years in prison, five for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his sister's sick child, and 14 for trying to escape.
Through song, important to note, all but a few lines of the entire narrative are sung, not spoken, makes it a very interesting movie, we see him taunted by a prison guard named Javert. Warwick, this scene, this first scene lays out the devastation of the crucible that Jean Valjean has been through, and he will continue to go through if Javert has his way. We talk a lot at Beyond the Crucible about the power of hope and forgiveness, but that's not what we see when we meet these two central characters, is it?
Warwick Fairfax:
This is certainly a low point in Jean Valjean's life. He has been in prison for 19 years, and for what? Stealing a loaf of bread to help his sister's sick child who was close to death? That sure seems like maybe you deserve some punishment, maybe some rap on the knuckles, but 19 years? I guess it was five years, and then plus another 14 for trying to escape. It's just...
Gary Schneeberger:
The punishment does not fit the crime here, for sure.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, absolutely. We see these lines of men with these long ropes, try to pull this massive ship into dock. It just seems almost impossible. We learn in this early scene, that he gets paroled, Valjean gets paroled by Javert, who will be his nemesis. In theory, that means he's free, but not really. Yes, he's free, but the papers that he carries with him, they basically say that he is a dangerous man, and he'll have to report regularly or he'll be arrested immediately.
Javert says that these papers are a badge of shame that he will wear until he dies. Doesn't really feel like freedom. Freedom kind of, but maybe it feels like purgatory, but doesn't really feel like he's fully escaped. As I said, this is really a badge of shame that he'll wear the rest of his life. It seems that in these early scenes, we get a bit of a picture of Javert, and it sure would seem like Javert does not believe in forgiveness or in redemption.
Javert's attitude throughout the movie is once a criminal, always a criminal. Redemption is not possible. You've committed a crime, and that'll follow you the rest of your life. That's the code that Javert goes by.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. His efforts to break Jean Valjean's spirit extend the fact that he doesn't call him Jean Valjean. He calls him by his number, 24601, throughout the movie, as you'll hear, these two, their paths crossed throughout the movie, but he always refers to them as 24601. You're just truly just a number. It also struck me, Warwick, that Javert thinks crucibles are a life sentence.
Imagine how for us, how tragic that would be, if all the guests we had on thought that way. If you thought that way after your crucible, if I thought that way after mine. It's definitely not the truth that crucibles are a life sentence, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's so true, Gary. If we were talking to Javert, he would say, "Your worst day does define you. Your worst day will be with you for the rest of your life. Certainly, if you've committed a crime and made a mistake, there is no redemption. It will haunt you the rest of your life. You make this kind of a criminal mistake, you're no longer human, you're just a number. You're subhuman, you're not worthy of redemption."
"You should be in prison, or hide away somewhere where decent people of society don't see you. You've made a mistake, and you'll forever pay for that mistake. Redemption doesn't exist. You are definitely defined by your worst day. It's sort of etched on your soul. There is no hope, there is no forgiveness, there's no grace, no mercy, no redemption." That is Javert's code.
Gary Schneeberger:
In his own way as he gets his freedom, Valjean sort of feels the same way initially, not about himself per se, but he definitely is full of hate and anger. He's carrying his crucible with him outside of the crucible experience of being in prison. He muses about what will life have for me, and what will this new life have for me?
It seems like Valjean has trouble with forgiveness himself at this juncture, and he finds out very quickly, so do all the people he seeks a second chance from, doesn't he?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. At this point, Valjean is on parole. Yes, he has to check in regularly with his, I guess, parole officer, but it seems like he has freedom. These papers that say that he's a dangerous criminal, the badge of shame, wherever he goes, whether it's to try to get a job, or to find a room to rent, a place to sleep, nobody will let him in. He can't get work. He has no roof over his head. It really is, these papers really are a badge of shame.
He truly is a miserable, wretched person at this point, and he is no reason for hope that life will get any better, and no reason not to be angry and bitter. It's very clear that he sings, as you mentioned, that's the way the characters speak in this movie, he says that he'll never forget the years he has lost, and he will not forgive them for what they have done.
He, at this point is, "I will not forgive. I will not forget, I'm angry and bitter. What happened to me was absolutely unfair and wrong, and I'm never going to get over it." That's his attitude at this point of the movie.
Gary Schneeberger:
Then something truly miraculous happens to him. He visits, he drops by one of the people he stops by to see, looking for shelter, is the Bishop of Dean. This is the kind of man Warwick, whose radical grace changes the trajectory, of Jean Valjean's life, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Gary, this is profoundly true. The bishop asked Valjean to come into the church and give him a bed, and some food, and wine. Here is the beginnings of drops of grace. The first person that Valjean comes across, he says, "Come in, come into the church. I'll give you something to eat, a place to sleep." He tells Valjean this bishop does, "to rest from pain and wrong." The bishop is so kind to him.
Valjean is so full of anger and bitterness that it seems like at this point, it's impossible for him to receive any grace and kindness from the bishop. So much so, that what is Valjean's response to this kindness and grace that he's getting? He ends up stealing the silver from the church. Well, he gets caught, and he is brought back to the bishop and Valjean says, "Well, yeah, the bishop gave me the silver." I guess he's got to try something.
What's amazing is the bishop says, "That's true," which it wasn't, but obviously, he says that's true. The bishop says, "In fact, Valjean left the best of the silver behind." Not only does he forgive him for stealing the silver that he has, he gives him more silver, the stuff that he hasn't stolen yet. The bishop says there is a higher plan, and that Valjean must use this silver to become an honest man.
I don't know, the Bishop may see something in Jean Valjean. Maybe he sees some goodness that can be redeemed. I don't know what possesses the bishop to do what is, even for a minister, is just almost unthinkable, to not only no consequences. He could have said, "Okay, Greg, give me back the silver and be gone." He doesn't do that. That would be grace enough. Grace upon grace is you can have the silver. Use it to get yourself lots of money. That's more than grace. That's just astounding.
Valjean is overwhelmed by the bishop's kindness and grace. He says that God has raised him out of darkness. The minister has saved his soul for God. He says he's done with being a thief. He asks if there is another way then hate. He wonders why he allowed the bishop to touch his soul. What this bishop did for him, it absolutely touched and transformed his soul. He says one word from the bishop, and he would be back in prison. He wonders if there's another way to go.
In essence, he says that his past is nothing now, and another story must begin. Valjean has said, in essence, I'm going to turn the page. I'm going to become a different man. This whole episode, where the bishop shows the profound transformation that radical grace and kindness can have, this one episode, it is the turning point in Jean Valjean's life, and it transforms him from somebody full of hate and bitterness, to a person that can be redeemed, and be full of love and grace and mercy.
This one act of radical grace is, it's unbelievable in the act, but it's unbelievable, the transformation that it has for Jean Valjean.
Gary Schneeberger:
After this moment, this very meaningful and moving moment, Les Miserables then jumps eight years to 1823. Valjean has made good on his promise to serve God by helping others. He's a respected factory owner and mayor of Montroy. He is startled, though, when Javert arrives as his new chief of police. Very ironic, right? Now, Javert works for Valjean. That's an interesting deal right there.
Witnessing Valjean rescue a worker trapped under a cart makes Javert suspect Valjean's true identity, but he's not sure yet. Meanwhile, one of Valjean's workers, Fantine, is fired by the foreman of his factory when she is revealed to have an illegitimate daughter, Cosette. She has been mocked and chided by her female coworkers, Fantine has. She's been sexually harassed by the foreman. She is reduced on the streets to selling her teeth, selling her hair, and selling herself.
It's at this point that she sings the most famous song in the soundtrack of Les Miserables, I Dreamed A Dream. Let's take a look and listen to that song right now.
Fantine:
There was a time when men were kind,
And their voices were soft,
And their words inviting.
There was a time when love was blind,
And the world was a song,
And the song was exciting.
There was a time when it all went wrong...
I dreamed a dream in time gone by,
When hope was high, and life worth living.
I dreamed that love would never die,
I dreamed that God would be forgiving.
Then I was young and unafraid,
And dreams were made, and used, and wasted.
There was no ransom to be paid,
No song unsung, no wine untasted.
But the tigers come at night, with their voices soft as thunder, as they tear your home apart, as they turn you dream to shame.
[inaudible 00:20:53] by my side. He filled my days with endless wonder. He took my childhood and destroyed.
He was gone when autumn came.
Still, I dream, he'll come to me, that we live the years together. There are dreams that cannot be, and there are storms we cannot weather.
I had a dream. My life would be so different from all this hell I'm living, so different from what it seemed.
Oh, life has killed the dream.
I dream.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, I worked on publicity for this film when I was living in Hollywood and doing PR in the film industry, so I know the movie well. When I saw and heard Anne Hathaway in this scene, just as an example, it was during a screening, was somewhere, and I said to a studio executive, "Bad news for anybody else up for a best supporting actress Oscar this year," because she was just so good in that scene. It just grabbed people so, so much.
Watching the film for the first time from a Beyond the Crucible context in particular has brought it to me in a fresh light, even though I've known that song in this movie for years. It's really a song about the bottom of the pit, as we talk about, which is caused by the pain of crucibles. We say it all the time. You've reached the bottom of the pit. This is where Fantine's at singing this song, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Fantine is at the lowest ebb of her life. Fantine's song is so incredibly sad. She had dreams of a happier life, and they've been destroyed. That life that she lives now is so different than what she had hoped for. She believed she is literally living in hell. To have dreams that have been destroyed and be in a place of shame, and agony, and pain is about as deep a pit as a person could be in.
Not only is she in agony, but as bad as agony is, just to be at a point of shame where she's shunned by everybody, and she's forced to be reduced to a prostitute, she has no respect for herself. She's in agony. She literally feels like she is in a living hell. It's just an incredibly sad scene, and just a haunting song that she sings. It's just devastatingly sad, that Fantine finds herself.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, the last line, right? "Life has killed the dream I dreamed," right? That is truly the bottom of the pit. Unfortunately for her, the bottom of the pit is going to get a little bit deeper, because Javert arrests her when she attacks an abusive customer. Valjean recognizes her and takes her to the hospital, much to Javert's suspicion and anger.
Learning that a man has been wrongly identified as him, Valjean reveals his identity to the court, and this is a decision he wrestles with quite a bit to admit who he is will save the other man, but will put him back on the run, at least in prison under Javert or people like him at worst. Valjean ultimately turns himself in. It's the high character move for him to do. The one that doesn't just focus on helping himself, why is such honesty? Honesty that might cause us pain, so critical to Valjean, continuing to live his life of significance?
Warwick Fairfax:
Valjean is first torn. Part of him is relieved that they have caught someone they think is him, because then finally, Javert might stop looking for him. As he sings, because as we know, everything is right with his song, he sings this. If he says something in court, he'll be condemned. If he does not speak up, he'll be, in his words, damned, so condemned versus damned. That's a pretty tough choice.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. That is not a good decision to have to make.
Warwick Fairfax:
He wonders if he can condemn this innocent man and he sings, "Who am I? My soul belongs to God. Who am I? I'm Jean Valjean. Now, I wonder the man who was before he found that bishop, so full of anger and bitterness, I wonder if that man has said, 'Look, life is not fair?' I feel sorry for this guy, but I deserve to break. God or the universe who is up there, I deserve to be free, and this is a gift from God. Look, I can't help the whole world. He'll have to figure it out himself."
We don't know, but this Jean Valjean, the after that bishop showed him so much kindness and grace. He is a different man. By saying, "My soul belongs to God," it's very clear that he will do the right thing. This man is innocent. I am Valjean. The lesson here is that when you're beginning to turn to a different path, lying can erode your soul. Honesty is the path of new life and freedom. If he had started lying, he may have been free in the physical world, but in his soul, the change would've started coming back on him.
His conscience would've bothered him. He would've been in prison if he'd done the wrong thing and hadn't told the truth. It really shows that he is on a different path, and it's really something that we should all listen to and take a lesson from, that doing the wrong thing: lying, cheating, stealing, betraying, it puts your own heart and soul in prison. It's not the way out. Never is.
Gary Schneeberger:
No. Ironically, though ,the court doesn't believe him when he says that he's a Jean Valjean. The court doesn't believe him. Regardless, he's spoken the truth and it's a sign that his character has indeed changed, as you said. He must then head out on the run again, but only after doing two things. The first is he returns to the dying Fantine, promising to care for her daughter, Cosette. Talk about that scene, because it's a very touching, very sad, but very touching one as well.
Warwick Fairfax:
It surely is. Valjean consoles the dying Fantine. She sings, the light is fading, and Valjean says that she should be at peace, peace evermore. He'll protect her daughter Cosette. He tells her that her daughter will want for nothing. Fantine says, "He came from God in heaven." Valjean actually feels guilty for the situation Fantine finds itself in, because as we've mentioned, he was the owner of the factory where Fantine worked in. He feels responsible in some way for Fantine being fired by the foreman that was sexually harassing her.
I don't know that he was fully aware of what going on, but regardless, it was his factory and his mind, this new mind, this new heart, is that it's his responsibility. In a sense, by taking care of Cosette, he feels he's trying to right a wrong that he feels responsible for, for allowing what happened to Fantine to happen. This is really another indication of a remarkable change that is happening in the character and soul of Jean Valjean.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. One of the things that we talk about a lot here at Beyond the Curseable is the idea of doing soul work. We saw it earlier in the film, when he was singing, "What should I do? What do I do? Who am I? Who am I?" It's safe to say that Jean Valjean did some soul work in this film, didn't he?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. That's a great point, Gary. He is taking positions that many people wouldn't. They might feel sorry for Fantine, but it's like, "Look, I can't be everywhere at all times. I'm not responsible for what the foreman did. Okay, maybe I'll fire him, discipline him, do something, but Fantine made her choices, and life's tough, and it's not my responsibility to sort out everybody's life. There's a lot of poor wretched souls in this world, and why am I responsible for fixing everybody's life?" That's what the old Valjean would've said.
The new one says, "No, it's my responsibility, and I'm going to take, not just help out Cosette, but take care of her for his whole life, and that she should want for nothing." He could have put her up in an orphanage somewhere, or maybe even a nice one, paid some money. Maybe she should have some decent living. She might be poor, but at least somewhat well-treated somewhere, maybe. Although orphanages back then are reminded of the movie Oliver, they were not too good back in the 19th century.
I don't know if there were any good orphanages back then, but regardless, he could have done something but not what he did, which is basically take Cosette in as his own daughter, if you will, so that she would want for nothing. That's remarkable grace. It's almost like he's learned this remarkable grace from the bishop. That's not normal grace. That's not normal philanthropy. It's just remarkable.
Gary Schneeberger:
No, he's definitely a man who, in our modern vernacular, is not afraid of getting his hands dirty when it comes to helping others, living that life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. He's truly walking that out in all that he does. His crucible remains from Javert, because he and Javert have a confrontation. The inspector tells him this, "Men like you can never change." There he is. He's changed. We've seen him change. He knows he's changed, and yet here's his voice, whispering in his ear, not whispering, but sort of barking at his, barking in his face.
"Men like you can never change." We learned a little bit though in this scene, Warwick, about Javert's own crucible life, and how it informs the harshness he carries, don't we? We see, I don't know if it causes us to feel sympathy for him or not, but we understand a little bit of where his harshness comes from, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, indeed. Valjean at this point is committed to fulfilling his promise to the dying Fantine to look after her daughter, Cosette. Then when he sees Javert and Javert confronts him, he tells Javert that this dead woman, Fantine, left a child, and he needs three days to make arrangements for the child. He's not saying "I'm going to run away forever, I just need some time to get things sorted out."
Javert says, "A man like you will never change." Javert will not listen and seems to have no compassion whatsoever. Javert says that he, Javert, was born in prison and is from the gutter, but he has learned very different lessons, and the lessons he is learned is basically one of a life of harshness with no possibility of grace and redemption.
For Javert, there are only laws in order that must be kept, no redemption, no grace, only laws and regulations, no way back, no redemption, almost like eternal damnation. That is the lessons that Javert seemed to learn from his very harsh upbringing.
Gary Schneeberger:
Valjean then visits the dishonest innkeepers, and Warwick, I apologize in advance as someone who speaks French, I'm going to get this wrong, but I'm going to try, the [foreign language 00:34:32]? Close?
Warwick Fairfax:
I think that's very good.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right. The dishonest innkeepers, we'll just call him the dishonest innkeepers from this point on, whose bit of the plot is mostly comic relief, and takes Cosette to protect her as his own. Warwick, he realizes, Valjean does, that love, the kind he feels from Cosette, has given him his true life's purpose. We talk about that a lot here at Beyond the Crucible. That's a moving realization, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. When Valjean first sees Cosette, he says he made a promise to Fantine, her mother. He says he was blind to someone in need, Fantine. In other words, he didn't realize what was going on in the factory. He feels responsible, but he says to Cosette that her suffering is over. Later, he sings that he's not alone now, and that something has begun. He sings, the world seems a different place full of grace and full of light. So much hope is held inside. "How was I to know that happiness can come so fast," he says, "Never more alone or apart."
Cosette has won his heart and brought the gift of life to him. He says, "I suddenly see what I could not see." This is part of the redemptive arc of Valjean's life. His life has purpose and meaning now. He wants to, in some ways, redeem Fantine's tragic life by caring for his daughter. Before, he had no purpose, no life. Now, he has purpose, life, and hope by redeeming Fantine's legacy, and by giving her daughter, Cosette, a life she could not have had otherwise, a life of hope and promise.
Valjean has, as part of his redemptive arc, he has purpose, and life, and hope. Joy is beginning to come into his life. There was no joy in that opening scene in the movie, where he and the other men were pulling that long rope lines of pulling that heavy ship into the dark. There was no hope. There was only anger, bitterness. Now, we see hope and love and joy. It is truly remarkable what we see in Jean Valjean.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, that he leans into his character. We have another series going on on the actionable truths of the brand, and character is one of them. The character, he acts on that. He acts on that. He acts on that. Then here comes the joy. That's vintage Beyond the Crucible. Character, if you lean into your character, you can pursue that joyous life of significance. This movie could have been written by us, maybe.
Warwick Fairfax:
Very well said.
Gary Schneeberger:
Valjean and Cosette find safe in a convent, and avoid Javert who's still chasing them. The convent's groundskeeper is the man, if you remember, that Valjean saved from the wood that had fallen on him earlier. Javert vows to keep his pursuit of Valjean. He sings, "Those who falter and those who fall must pay the price." That's Javert's worldview.
That's a hard world, isn't it, Warwick, for anyone who's been through a crucible to live in? Javert represents everything that's hard about turning trial into triumph, doesn't he?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, as Valjean flees with Cosette, Javert is in pursuit. We learned something about Javert's theology and belief system. He sings about a fugitive, fallen from God and fallen from grace. It's as if when you've fallen from God and fallen from grace, in Javert's mind, there is no way back. Grace is lost forever. Javert will never yield until they come face to face.
He sings, "Mine is the way of the Lord. Those who follow the path of righteousness." He talks about it as if when people fall as Lucifer fell, they will get the flame and the sword. He says, "Those who fall must pay the price." He sings, "Lord, let me find him safely behind bars. I will never rest until then. This I swear by the stars," meaning he has his own theology and belief system all worked out.
He definitely has a belief in God and the Lord, but a very different belief system than Valjean, or certainly the bishop. Javert has this harsh theology, one of judgment and rules, where there is no grace, none whatsoever. He is committed to his path and his way of looking at the world and God, and he will never relent. It is hard to move beyond your crucible when you're being pursued by men like Javert, who believes there is no possibility of redemption or mercy.
As we said before, Javert's belief system is you were defined by your worst day, certainly, when you committed a crime. There is no way back. There is no life of significance. You're not even human. Subhuman people that are criminals, there's no redemption, there's no life or significance. There's only eternity of pain and suffering. That's what you deserve when you've committed a crime. When you're at the bottom of the pit, the pit is never ending, and there's no way out.
There's no light at the end of the tunnel, only eternal darkness, and that is as it should be. That's what you deserve. That is the belief system, this horrific and horrendous belief system that Javert has.
Gary Schneeberger:
To flip it on its edge, our series on the actionable truths, right? All that Javert is about is actionable falsehoods. He's acting on these falsehoods, that there's no grace, there's no redemption. You can't get better. If you've done this, once a thief, always a thief. He's constantly acting on those things. He's not just saying them, he's acting on them. That really makes life challenging, to say the least, for Jean Valjean. Well, as Les Miserables want to do what [inaudible 00:41:27] jumps ahead again after this.
The movie jumps ahead nine years in the next point, and Valjean has become a philanthropist to the poor in Paris. A new French Revolution is brewing. General Lamarque, the only government official sympathetic to the poor, dies. The revolutionist group, friends of the ABC, plot against the monarchy. Marius Pontmercy, how's that? Was that good? Pontmercy?
Warwick Fairfax:
That was really good.
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, thank you. All right, I'm going to live on that for another two weeks, folks. Marius, we're going to call him from now on. Marius, a member of the Friends falls in love with Cosette at first sight, and asks his best friend, Eponine, the wicked innkeeper's daughter, to find her. He and Cosette meet and confess their love.
Eponine, herself in love with Marius, is heartbroken. In a movie full of crucibles, Warwick, this is a more minor crucible that we don't see a lot of, but this is definitely a crucible for this young woman who's known many of them, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, so absolutely. We see Marius, who is a student revolutionary, but he's from a wealthy background as we see in one scene, where his grandfather tries to stop him from getting involved in the revolution. Marius sees Cosette, and he's instantly drawn to her, as she is to him. It is almost cruel when Marius, not quite understanding what's going on, he asked Eponine to find Cosette. Eponine tells Marius that she knows Cosette, they grew up together.
What's so sad is while Marius just considers Eponine a friend, Eponine dearly loves Marius. She considers herself his girlfriend, even though he doesn't quite see it the same way. When Eponine agrees to find Cosette, it is an act of both great tragedy and incredible love for Marius. She realizes that Marius is just besotted with Cosette, and she can see there's just this deep feelings, attraction to Cosette.
The last thing that she wants to do, humanly speaking, is to satisfy that desire, because if he is with Cosette, he won't be with her, which is the last thing she wants. She loves Marius so much. She's willing to do something for him that will cause her immense pain. That is an act of supreme love that's hard to describe. When Eponine hears Marius talk of his feelings toward Cosette, it is like a dagger in her heart. Yet she moves ahead to try to find a way to unite Marius with Cosette. It is remarkable act of love and selflessness.
Gary Schneeberger:
Fearing that Javert is near Valjean plans to flee to England with Cosette, Cosette, wanting to be near Marius, though, is hesitant about the idea, but when Valjean ignores her pleas, she leaves Marius a letter, which Eponine hides from him. During Lamarque's funeral procession, the revolt begins, and barricades her built across Paris.
Javert poses as an ally, that's the kind of character that Javert has, he poses as an ally to spy on the rebels, but the street urchin, Gavroche, exposes him as a policeman. The revolutionaries hold him hostage. Valjean, who's joined the resistance to keep Marius in sight, because of Marius's love for Cosette, asks to be given Javert.
Warrick, this is a, for me, the second most moving scene in the film. Valjean has his tormentor captive. The resistance is urging him to kill the man who betrayed them. That's not who Jean Valjean is, is it? What does he do with Javert in this situation?
Warwick Fairfax:
You're right, Gary. This is one of the most remarkable scenes in the movie. Here, Valjean asks the rebels, "Hey, I'll deal with Javert." He takes him away and he draws a knife. At this point, Javert is thinking, life is over. Valjean's going to kill me. What does Valjean do? He uses the knife to cut Javert's binding, and tells him to flee, and he doesn't want revenge. This blows Javert's mind. He does not understand. This is not in Javert's belief system.
Javert says to Valjean, "Once a thief, forever a thief." He says that if Valjean lets him go, he will have to answer to Javert. Valjean says, "Javert has always been wrong." He says, "He, Valjean, is no worth on any man," and that Javert is free. There are no bargains. He does not blame Javert. Javert has done his duty, nothing more. That's what Valjean says. Valjean even tells Javert his address. That's incredible.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, so he can go find him later if he wants to.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. He doubts that they paths will ever cross again, and he fires a shot to pretend to have killed Javert, and Javert flees. Valjean shows grace and mercy to Javert, which Javert would never have shown to Valjean. When Valjean frees Javert, it's like, "This makes no sense. He should not be doing this to me." As we'll find, it's sort of gnaws away his soul.
He cannot understand what Valjean has done to him or done for him. Yeah, I actually said, it's funny I said that. He did it for him, but as he will find out, he ended up doing it to him. We'll put a little teaser for what we'll talk about in a moment.
Gary Schneeberger:
That very well done, Warwick. You're very good at dropping those little breadcrumbs along the path. Stay tuned, folks, because there is some good stuff, even strong stuff coming later on. In the battle that follows, the outgunned evolutionaries are besieged. Many die. Marius is wounded. Even Javert is touched, this one hits me. Even Javert is touched by the carnage he witnesses, pinning his medal on the young boy Gavroche, who was killed.
Valjean carries Marius away to save his life, and Javert sees him and threatens to shoot him if he takes one more step, but he doesn't shoot him when Valjean doesn't listen to him, and does take one more step to get Marius out of there. What Valjean has done for him, what he has not done to him, shatters Javert, doesn't it? He has no room in his worldview for an act of mercy on that scale.
I think this makes him, Fantine's story very sad, very devastating, but these are things that happen sort of to her. I think this makes Javert perhaps the most miserable of The Miserables, as is translated in the US, because this is all coming from within. Is that a fair assessment?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's a great point, Gary. Here, we have Javert holding a pistol at Valjean as he's carrying Marius. Marius was wounded. They were crawling through the sewers to try to escape. At first, Javert tells them, "One more step and you die," but then Javert drops his pistol, and he speaks of almost a spell that Valjean has put on him. Javert can't stand that Valjean could have killed him, and yet he gave him back his life.
Javert is in the debt of a thief. He cannot stand being in the debt of a thief, of a criminal. It just eats away at his soul. Javert says, "There is nothing that we share. It is either Valjean or Javert." Javert is standing on the edge of the bridge, high over the waters. It's a long, long way down. He wonders if sins can be forgiven, and whether crimes can be reprieved.
There is a glimmer of trembling at perhaps a slight breaking in Javert's heart of stone. His belief system is beginning to slightly crumble, and Javert says, "Does Valjean know that granting me my life today, this man Valjean, has killed me?" He stares into the void and says, "I'll escape from the world of Jean Valjean. There is nowhere I can go. There is no way to go on." Then Javert leaps to his death. Javert is indeed a miserable and a wretched person.
His was a belief system of rules, regulations, and harshness, with no possibility of grace and redemption. Valjean's supreme act of grace and mercy, by sparing Javert's life completely, undoes Javert. Because of Javert's belief system, somehow, Javert seems to allow the grace and forgiveness from Valjean to kill him. When I said before, the grace of mercy that was done to him rather than for him, it's actually true, because Javert cannot process grace, and forgiveness, and redemption.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Now, the stage is set for Cosette and Marius to get married. Though he's happy for Cosette, Valjean flees before the wedding, he tells Marius about his past, his crimes and his prison term, and he worries that Cosette will face repercussions for his sins, even though earlier, she asked him to tell her about his past, which he did not do. He takes refuge again at the convent.
When Marius learns, it was Valjean who saved him when he'd been shot, something Valjean in his humility never told him, Marius tells Cosette her father is a saint for his actions. The newly married couple track him down to the convent. Talk about that final scene between Valjean and Marius and Cosette work, and why it's so meaningful in the context of what we've seen in Les Miserables.
Warwick Fairfax:
This is such a beautiful scene. It's really a scene of redemption, of love and grace. We see Valjean dying, and as he's dying, he sees an image of Fantine singing to him. She sings to him, "You raise my child with love, you will be with God." Valjean says that Cosette is the best part of his life. Marius says that Valjean saved him, and says to Cosette, as you pointed out, that her father is a saint.
With Cosette with him, Valjean says that he can die in peace, because his life is now blessed. For Valjean to say that his life is blessed, I think probably at the beginning of the movie, he would've said his life is cursed.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
It is a remarkable transformation in attitude. Valjean writes his last confession of his story of someone who turned from hating and learning to love when Cosette was in his care. Valjean gives this letter of confession, which basically describes everything that happened to him, and everything that he did, and the whole arc of his life, he gives this letter to Cosette to open after he died. At this point, Cosette really doesn't know who her adopted father truly was and what he'd been through.
Fantine, or at least her image, then sings to Valjean, "Come with me, where the chains will never bind you Lord in heaven, look down on him, Valjean, in mercy." Valjean's last words are, "Forgive me all my trespasses and take me to your glory," and then he dies. It is truly remarkable. The arc of Jean Valjean's life has completely changed. Previously, he was a man that was angry and bitter, who'd been imprisoned for so many years for doing so little, stealing a loaf of bread for his sister's sick child.
Now, he's become a man full of mercy and grace, who spent his life caring for Cosette, and in some sense, redeeming the life and legacy of Fantine. Valjean showed great mercy and forgiveness to his nemesis, Javert. Valjean's life was truly a life that became one of love, grace, and redemption. At the beginning of the movie, to think that his life could be a life of love, grace, and redemption, it would be inconceivable. His life is completely turned around.
He dies a man feeling blessed, who felt like he did some good in the world, who, he had some redemptive influence. Jean Valjean dies as a man completely at peace. It's just remarkable.
Gary Schneeberger:
There's one thing, as I hear you talk about it, that makes me, I think there's one big mistake that Valjean makes. We talk about it at Beyond the Crucible, your worst day doesn't define you. He believes, by withholding his last confession, by worrying of how Cosette will react to it, he believes right up until he passes away that what he's done before, his sins that he's so moved past and lived a life of significance, are going to cause problems, are going to haunt going forward.
Talk a little bit about just, we haven't talked about this before, but not on this show, we've talked about it many times on other shows, why it's so important to, when we've repented of our sins as they've caused our crucibles, and we've moved beyond them, and we've left them behind us, we shouldn't live in that space, that we should not let our worst day define us.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's an interesting point, Gary. He is really living a life of grace, and mercy, and forgiving others, but it's unclear how much he feels he is worthy of grace and forgiveness. He wants Cosette to know his story, but he's unwilling to tell Cosette the full story while he's alive. Maybe he thinks she would be shocked and would turn away from him, would be repulsed by what he's gone through, and being imprisoned and all.
He doesn't want her to think less of him. Maybe because he finds it challenging, perhaps, to forgive himself, he worries that Cosette may not forgive him, but yet, there must be a part of him that believes she will and she could. Otherwise, he never would've given that letter to Cosette to say, "Here's my confession, here's what happened." I guess maybe it's 50/50, maybe it's like, he's hoping that she'll forgive him, but just in case, he doesn't want to really see her face while he's alive.
Yeah, he's not fully there, believing. He's not fully forgiving himself what he's been through and his mistakes.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, interesting. Again, watching this movie through the lens of Beyond the Crucible was just fascinating and really illuminating to me. We've arrived at the end of the movie. Valjean has shown after death, he has shown after death, singing a song with all the revolutionaries who were killed, as well as Fantine. There's a beautiful scene at the end, where they all kind of, their spirits really sing together, a song of triumph.
That leaves me to ask you one last question, Warwick, and we've talked about a lot of stuff here. This is a dense movie, and I don't mean dumb. This is a packed movie. This is a movie that's packed with lots of both high joy and very low, low, low devastation. Let me ask you this. How does Les Miserables offer hope and inspiration to move beyond our own crucibles? What would you say is the greatest point about the movie?
Warwick Fairfax:
Les Miserables is a story of grace, mercy, forgiveness, and redemption. Jean Valjean starts off as a man in prison for years, for a crime that was so small, stealing a loaf of bread for his sister's sick child. He starts off being so angry and bitter for what he sees as an injustice. In one sense, he could say he has every right to feel angry and bitter. He was just so mistreated. He faces a man in Javert who is, in a sense, who is all about rules and harshness, where mercy and redemption are impossible.
Through an act of supreme mercy and forgiveness by the Bishop of Dean, Valjean's life is fundamentally changed. The Bishop could have turned him in for stealing silver. He could have said, "Okay, I'm not going to turn him in, but be gone, and enough with you." Instead, he gave him all of the silver and then some, and it was such a gift, so that he really had this vision, this bishop, of Valjean becoming an honest man. That gift would lead Valjean to being a man of grace and mercy.
Grace and mercy was shown to him, and he indeed showed that to others. He looks after Fantine's daughter, Cosette, after Fantine dies. He shows mercy and forgiveness to Javert, a man who would never show any mercy and forgiveness to Valjean or anybody. Valjean's life has truly been redeemed. He has gone from living a life of anger and bitterness, to a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. This movie shows that we can indeed have a second chance.
It shows us that the way of anger and bitterness leads to destruction. It leads to misery. A life with rules and regulations without grace and mercy cannot stand, as is shown by the life of Javert. Eventually, his life comes falling down like a house of cards. His belief system, it cannot stand. No matter how crucibles and what we have done, what has been done to us, this movie shows, there is always the possibility of hope and redemption.
Gary Schneeberger:
With that, folks, you may have noticed the house lights have gone on. It's time to gather your popcorn buckets, and your empty soda containers, and throw them out as you leave. We are done for another week of our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles, and next week, we will be back with another one. Scott, wake up. If we put you to sleep, wake up in there, Scott, because next week, will be talking about, and I need a drum roll right now.
Excellent. Next week, Warwick and I will be discussing the pursuit of happiness. Until then, folks, please know we understand how tough your crucibles are. We also understand that they can be overcome. They don't define you for the rest of your days. Until we get together to talk about our next film in this series, remember, we'll save you a seat.
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It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit BeyondtheCrucible.com. Take the free assessment, and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Big Screen, Big Crucibles III: Rudy
This week, in episode three of our summer series BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES, we take a look at Rudy, the inspirational story of one young man’s refusal to give up on his dream of playing football for the University of Notre Dame.
With grit greater than gridiron skill, despite being underestimated since childhood, Rudy Ruettiger learns and applies the truth his best friend told him: “Having dreams is what makes life tolerable.”
Dive deeper into your personal narratives with our BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES guided journal, meticulously crafted to enhance your experience with our podcast series exploring cinema’s most transformative crucible stories. This journal serves as a dedicated space for introspection, inviting you to connect the profound journeys of on-screen characters with the pivotal moments that have shaped your own life.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
His dad said this, "Chasing a stupid dream... ", like Rudy's grandfather, "... causes heartache for you and everyone around you." He says, "Notre Dame is for rich kids, smart kids, great athletes. It's not for us."
Gary Schneeberger:
It's not for us. That can be a dream killer to hear, and the central character in Rudy hears it a lot. But this week in episode three of our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles, we take a look at how the Rudy of the title refused to give up on his dream of playing football for the University of Notre Dame. With grit greater than Gridiron skill, he learns and applies this truth. His best friend told him, "Having dreams is what makes life tolerable."
We are back folks with another episode of our summer series, and let me set the stage for it for you again, it's always fun to set the stage actually, Warwick, because we had so much fun last year and a couple of years ago before that with our summer series on classic movies last year and on superhero movies and other heroic movies a few years back before that. And we talked really about the lessons they can teach us about overcoming our own crucibles. So we're doing it again this summer and this summer what we're focusing on and what we're calling it is Big Screen, Big Crucibles. So I would add big fun and big learning. There you go. All that stuff.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well said.
Gary Schneeberger:
Everything's big. Everything's big this time around. And that's true. For eight weeks this summer, we're taking a look at films that feature a wide variety of crucibles. Insightful lessons, they teach us about how not only to bounce back from those crucibles, but I'm casting a vision for charting a course to a life of significance. And our film this week is Rudy. It came out in 1993 and here's the synopsis. But before I read the synopsis, I want to tell you this particular synopsis, the ones I'm reading in every episode of this series this summer, is what in Hollywood, here's a little Hollywood term you can take with you. It's called a logline. It's a short, concise summary of a film that's usually created even before the film is finished.
So here's the logline, here's the summary for Rudy. "Rudy has always been told that he was too small to play college football, but he is determined to overcome the odds and to fulfill his dream of playing for Notre Dame." Sounds pretty exciting. It is very exciting actually. And, Warwick again, I'm going to ask you because it is exciting, before we dive into the crucibles that Rudy faces and how he overcomes them and what his actions can teach us about how to overcome our own crucibles, let me ask you again, why movies? This is, as I said, the third time that we've gone into the cinema, that we've gone into the theater for our summer series. What are you hoping our listeners and viewers will get from our conversations?
Warwick Fairfax:
So we both love movies and have enjoyed watching them, but we like to watch movies from a Beyond-the-Crucible perspective. So typically movies portray a protagonist who is facing significant challenges that they seek to overcome. And in the past we've covered movies, superheroes, sports heroes, historical heroes, and last year we actually covered movies from American Film Institute's top 100 movies. So this year we thought we'd look at movies that we thought were some of the best ones that really deal with people overcoming significant crucibles, and they found a way to bounce back to life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Each of these movies display a figure that is truly inspirational and have had a significant effect on other people. So these are great movies with great stories and great lessons.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and one of the other things I noticed about these movies finally after watching the third one, this is the third in the series as I said Rudy, is I noticed that the first three movies that we've talked about, Unbroken, Hidden Figures, and now Rudy, the first thing you see on the screen when the movie starts is either this film is based on a true story that's for Rudy and that's for Hidden Figures. Or in the case of Unbroken, it actually says this film is a true story. And it just struck me, Warwick, that of the eight movies we're covering and I went through, and seven of them are actually based on true stories. Do you think that says anything compelling about the inspiration to be found in bouncing back from crucibles that these seven of eight that we're talking about are based on true stories?
Warwick Fairfax:
If you look at the movies that we've done so far, if these are fictional stories, it will be hard to believe that it will be possible. So how could Louis Zamperini in Unbroken overcome torture in a Japanese prison of war camp and remain unbroken, so to speak? I mean, it's remarkable. Or how could three African-American women in the 1960s who had to overcome significant racial and gender discrimination, how could they possibly become valued members of the NASA space program? You'd say, "It's the 1960s, I'm not seeing it. I don't think that's really possible. I think it's just, it couldn't happen." But as we'll see with Rudy, Rudy's story would be just as hard to believe if it was fictional. How in the world could Rudy achieve what he achieved? Most people would, "It's a nice story, but in the real world it doesn't happen."
And so that's why truth is stranger than fiction. We can learn a lot because these stories are true. The heroes and these stories did achieve what they achieved and we can learn a lot. Sometimes we think, "I can never achieve that. I can never bounce back from my worst day. It's not possible." Well, maybe it is possible. Maybe you can bounce back because the folks we've covered so far and will cover, they all found a way to get beyond their darkest moments and not let them have those moments to find their worst day. So we can take a lot of inspirational and a lot of learning from these stories.
Gary Schneeberger:
And since Rudy is about in large part football, let's kick off and let's get going. Our first glimpses of the crucibles into the life of the title character. And his name's not Rudy, his first name's not Rudy, his first name's Daniel and his last name is Ruettiger. So he's called Rudy Ruettiger and we get our first glimpses of the crucibles he's facing in the opening scene of the film. He lives in Joliet, Illinois in the neighborhood that the establishing shots in the movie indicate is pretty, pretty clearly working class. And we see Rudy is barely in double digits and he and his brothers in neighborhood pals are playing football. And Rudy is frustrated because he says he is, this is a great quote. "I'm sick of playing all-time center." They only let him play center. He hikes the ball. That's all they allow him to do when he plays football.
"I'm sick of playing all-time center." He wants to carry the ball, he wants to catch the ball, he wants to tackle people who have the ball. He wants to really be involved in the game. But his brother, Frank tells him, "You can't play anything else. You are too small." So the first question to you, Warwick, is this scene is full of foreshadowing, isn't it? This is the first time, but not the last time by a long shot that Rudy is told he can't be a football player because of his stature, his physical stature. But he refuses to accept that even when he's a boy, doesn't he?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. We see each from the very beginning of the movie when Rudy is still a kid, he is playing football in the neighborhood with his brothers and friends and is constantly underestimated. It's almost like they reluctantly kind of let him play and he seems to be small and not athletic. And then as they leave the game, they kind of mock him, call him a spaz. You just basically, "You can't cut it, you're too small, not athletic." And that's just his life, continually being put down and underestimated. So after the game goes home to be with his mom and dad and brothers, and there's a conversation between Rudy's dad and one of his older brothers and his older brother is about to go to work in the steel mill where his dad works. And basically his dad says, "Look, working in the steel mill, it's a safe job. You get union protection."
Safe as in not exactly the work itself isn't safe, but you'll keep your job because it's union protection. And Rudy says that after high school, he's going to play football at Notre Dame. Now remember, we just saw him being too small, unathletic. Talk about the least likely to succeed, the least likely to play football. It's just like it's a preposterous, ridiculous statement. He is a kid after all, but still. So his older brother and everybody else, they just laugh. "Here goes Rudy again." And interestingly enough, they're watching Notre Dame play football on TV, which we'll find out is this beloved team of the family and certainly his dad. I think somebody says, "Hey, can we watch one of the other games?" And I think his dad says, "In this house, we only watch Notre Dame football, nothing else. You want to watch another game." It's basically, "Go somewhere else. Here, it's Notre Dame football. That's it."
Gary Schneeberger:
Yep, that's it. And the film then jumps forward a few years to Rudy in high school and he's playing for his high school's football team and he's been on the team all through the school, right? But the coach is telling the players that all, but a handful of them will not go on to continue playing football in college. Just a couple of players have a shot at playing college football. The rest of them don't. And Rudy falls into the rest of them. The coach tells them, "This is the last time you will ever put on a football uniform." Once again, Rudy and the other kids on the team who aren't quite good enough are being underestimated. And Rudy is understandably dejected by hearing this and he gets even more so. And one of the teachers further dissuades him from thinking he can be a student, even a student, not just a football player, but even a student at Notre Dame. So Warwick, what this teacher says to Rudy are the kind of words that can really crush dreams, aren't they?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. So here's Rudy. He is at Joliet Catholic High School and he practices harder football even though he is undersized, if you will, and not athletic. He really doesn't pay much attention in class. His grades aren't good. He's daydreaming and he hears that one day there's going to be a bus from the school to take students who are hoping to go to Notre Dame to Notre Dame. And there's a priest who's leading the whole bus tour and the kids get on the bus one at a time, and there's Rudy, he's about to get on the bus and the priest basically is in effect saying, "What are you doing here?" And he says, well, he knows, the priest knows that Rudy doesn't have the grades to get into Notre Dame. And in effect, he says that Rudy should accept the position the good Lord is placed on him. He says, "Not everyone is meant to go to college and this bus is for students who are serious about going to college." So it's almost like, "People like you, Rudy, don't go to college."
In the sense the message was in not so many words, "Rudy, you're a working class kid, you should understand your place. You don't have the grades. Go work in a steel mill like your dad and your older brothers." He doesn't say all that. But that is the subtext that Rudy is sure hearing from the priest. And the message is really from the priest is that you don't have the capacity or grace to do much anything beyond that. You should accept your place in life as if somehow this place in life for you working class kid with poor grades was somehow God ordained. I mean, it's the very opposite of a fellow traveler. It is just a soul-crushing discussion speech, if you will, that this priest gives Rudy. It's devastating. I don't know that the priest meant to be mean. Maybe in his own strange way, he thought he was trying to be kind by just telling him the truth, but it was just soul-crushing hearing, "This is not meant for people like you except your place in life." That's just absolutely soul-crushing for Rudy.
Gary Schneeberger:
And there are a few other people in the movie as the movie plays out who do the sort of same thing to Rudy. They tell him sort of the same kinds of things. And there is behind that this idea that they're saving him from something I think, or that they're keeping him from being disappointed. But what their words end up doing is disappointing him. In fact, after that teacher says what he says to him, Rudy does seem to allow his dreams to be crushed, to abandon his vision. He takes a job at the steel mill where his dad is the boss and working there is his best friend Pete.
Now Pete is the first bright light we see in Rudy's life. Pete is the only fellow traveler that Rudy has in his life at this point. So let me ask you this, Warwick. There's an important exchange between Rudy and Pete over lunch in which Pete encourages Rudy to keep pursuing his dream, unlike what everybody else is telling him, Pete says, "Keep going after it." What does he say that's so important that all of us can keep in mind as we're encouraging others to not abandon their dreams and their vision and their goals for a life of significance?
Warwick Fairfax:
So at this point in Rudy's life, he doesn't have too many supporters, too many fellow travelers. In fact, I think Pete's about the only one again at this point in his life. And Rudy is in desperate need of people, anybody that will believe in him. Everybody seems to think that Rudy and his dreams are impossible. It's as if the whole world is saying, "Rudy, give it up. Give it up, buddy. Quit. Save yourself some pain. Just stop hitting your head against the wall. You'll just get hurt. You just stop it. Go be in the mill, be in the steel mill just like your dad and older brothers. Just give it up." But Pete's different on Rudy's 22nd birthday. They're in the break room at the steel mill where Pete works and obviously Rudy works and Pete gives Rudy a Notre Dame jacket. It's the best gift you could possibly give. Rudy, who's just a massive Notre Dame fan, wants to play football for Notre Dame. And Rudy is moved and loves it.
And Pete says Rudy was born to wear that jacket. And Rudy says that Pete is the only one that takes him seriously. And Pete says this about Pete's dad who said, "Having dreams is what makes life tolerable." Basically, there's beauty in having dreams. He encourages Rudy to have dreams for everybody else is just wants to kill the dreams and stamp them out. So when everybody's counting you out and doesn't believe in your dreams or capability, maybe you don't really believe in your own dreams or capability, it's tough to find the strength to get beyond others' limiting expectations, not to mention your own, but having a friend that believes in us and believes in what we can accomplish is like an oasis in the desert. It helps us keep going and take one more step.
And as we've often said at Beyond the Crucible, the power to get beyond your worst day to get out of the pit, it often begins with just one step forward. While having somebody like a Pete in your life can help you get the strength to say, "Okay, what's one next step I can take towards what everybody's saying is an absolutely impossible senseless vision that cannot happen?" So Pete does Rudy a great service and just is a splendid model of a fellow traveler.
Gary Schneeberger:
And there's even the scene, and we haven't talked about it in advance here, it just popped in my head. Before when Rudy's still a boy and so is Pete. Rudy has this thing that he does where he sort of changes his voice into an accent and he gives a speech like Knute Rockne, the coach of Notre Dame, the famous coach from the film, Knute Rockne, All-American from 1940, and he's given the speech, "And we're going to go inside, we're going to go outside, we're going to do this and we're going to do that." And everybody else sort of tolerates it when Rudy breaks into it. But there's a scene in Rudy's bedroom where he starts reciting that speech from memory and the camera goes tight on Pete, who's looking at him with amazement, who's looking at him with wonder, who's looking at him with respect. I mean, he's impressed that his buddy has memorized this inspirational speech. And I think that just is where the fertile ground from which their friendship and their fellow traveler-ness for each other is built. Right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Well said. I mean, Pete is such a good and loyal friend throughout their life at this point. He is just been so encouraging and really the only one that we see at this point. Everybody else is killing his dreams, trying to help him in some ways not be disappointed. But Pete's the only one that seems to encourage and just seems to see something within Rudy that's admirable.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and that's what happens next in the film so heartbreaking. After this positive moment where Rudy begins to believe again to dream again, tragedy strikes, Pete is killed in an accident at the mill. Devastated, Rudy decides to leave Joliet and go to South Bend, Indiana, home to Notre Dame to get into school there and yes, to get onto the football team. So tragedy strikes and Rudy is so moved by it, so devastated by it that he decides, "No, I'm not going to listen to all these people. I'm going to go for my dream." Warwick, his dad tries to talk him out of it again, but Rudy's mind is made up. He's got his vision and he's going to pursue it. What's his attitude at this turning point in the film? What does he do to begin turning that vision that he's off the charts passionate about into reality?
Warwick Fairfax:
Rudy has this attitude, he's just very resolute and he keeps getting kind of push back. The first pushback we see is even as he's leaving the funeral, Rudy's girlfriend Sherry is trying to console him, and Rudy says he's going to go to South Bend, which is where Notre Dame is. And he says that if he doesn't go now, he will never be any good for her or anybody. Now it's clear at this point in the movie, Sherry sees herself as his future wife. They're looking at a house that they might buy. They might put a down payment. She's got it mapped out. She respects and likes Rudy. And when Rudy says that he's going to go to South Bend and try to go to Notre Dame, Sherry says, "If you have to go, you'll go alone." And he says he knows and is sorry. Basically what that scene shows is their relationship is coming to an end.
She has this vision of him, much like his dad and older brothers do, of working in the mill, getting a good union paying job and staying in the station of life that he was born into. She doesn't get it. She's not trying to be mean, but his dad doesn't get it. His girlfriend Sherry doesn't get it. The next scene is where we see Rudy about to take a bus to take him to South Bend and his dad turns up, Rudy's surprised. And his dad in his own way is trying to help Rudy. It doesn't come across that way to Rudy, but I think that's his motive. So his dad starts telling the story of Rudy's grandfather and he says that Rudy's grandfather saved all his life to bring his family to this country and that his grandfather had a good job in the stockyard in Chicago and a nice house. Well, someone gave him this idea that he should buy land and get dairy cows.
Well, Rudy's grandfather seems to think this is a good idea and he buys the land with the dairy cows. Well, the cows all died. It's the great depression. His grandfather couldn't sell the land or find any work, so his grandfather takes off and never came back. So Rudy's dad and uncles, they had to live with friends and relatives. His dad said this, "Chasing a stupid dream... ", like Rudy's grandfather, "... causes heartache for you and everyone around you." He says, "Notre Dame is for rich kids, smart kids, great athletes. It's not for us." The message that Rudy's, basically the message that Rudy's father is telling Rudy is, "Look, people like us don't belong at Notre Dame. We're working class. That's who we are. We work in steel mills. That's what you should do."
And I think in his heart, his Rudy's dad is trying to help him, but it certainly doesn't come across that way. So while Rudy's dad may mean well, this is a soul-crushing story to share with Rudy at this point in his life. Basically if this was a parable, the moral of the parable is you try to strike out on your own and achieve your dreams, it'd cause devastation for yourself and all those who love you, including your family. So the moral of the story is be smart, go to the steel mill. Don't go to Notre Dame and hurt yourself and everybody around you. That's the moral of the story. And so despite this, Rudy is saddened by this story, but just like in his interaction with his girlfriend Sherry, Rudy is resolute. He gets on that bus and he is not giving up on his dream despite this just heartbreaking story that Rudy's dad shares.
Gary Schneeberger:
And even at this juncture of the film, still pretty early in the film, Rudy hasn't begun his journey really walking it out. We say a lot at Beyond the Crucible that we should not let our worst day define us. And it seems like Rudy's dad, what it all sort of rolls up into is Rudy's dad has let his worst moments define him. I don't think he wanted to have that. I have no idea. But he's done that and Rudy's not allowing that to happen. Is that a fair assessment between the two of them, dad and son, that dad has let the worst that has happened to him define him and Rudy is struggling, but he's not going to let that define him?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's a very good point, Gary. Really, Rudy's dad learns the wrong lesson from his father. Basically, the lesson wasn't, don't go for your dreams. It may be pick a good vision, pick a smart play. If you're working in the stockyards, what does he know about land and dairy cows? And it's the Depression, that probably wasn't the smartest idea in the world. So yes, could be-
Gary Schneeberger:
It wasn't a baby step, it wasn't a small step as we say, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
No, pick your dreams carefully. As you could argue, maybe Rudy didn't, but my gosh, he's putting not just his life on the line of his whole family. I mean he is at a different time of life. It's a different situation. So the moral of the story is that never go for your dreams. Maybe it's sometimes they don't work out. Maybe it's when they don't work out, you don't leave your family. You don't do that. So basically Rudy's dad learns the wrong lessons and says, "Okay, my lot on life is to work in the steel mill and to do anything else other than that is folly." He learns the wrong lessons and he doesn't learn the lessons of his crucible and his dad's crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
And there's another scene, very small scene where he's even afraid to kind of, Rudy encourages him to actually go to a game because he's such a Notre Dame fan to go to a game and his dad actually says this, "The view from my television set and my couch is perfect for me." There's a lot of fear there with his dad and he's passing that fear along to Rudy, but Rudy's not letting that keep him down. As you said, he goes to South Bend and when he gets to South Bend with all of his savings that he's had, he's saved up for all these years. He has in his pocket. He takes in pretty rapid succession, three small steps as we call them here to get moving to his dream of playing for Notre Dame. He shows up first at the campus in the middle of the night.
There's nobody there, but the night Watchman, the guard outside the gate, he talks to the guard. He says he wants to talk to someone about enrolling in classes there. The guard doesn't really know what to do. It's a Catholic institution. So he directs him to a priest who after hearing Rudy's story of not having great grades agrees to help him get into Holy Cross, a South Bend Junior College, at least for a semester. Where he promises to work hard to get his grades up so he can eventually get to Notre Dame. In that character that priest, Warwick, Father Cavanaugh, Rudy finds his first fellow traveler in South Bend. Doesn't he?
Warwick Fairfax:
He does. Father Cavanaugh, he gives Rudy a lifeline, he gives him a ray of hope. He doesn't sugarcoat it, he doesn't make it easy. He doesn't say, "Oh kid, it'll all happen." He really tells him the truth. He gives him hope, but a realistic truth. And he says, "Okay, there's not a guarantee." But now Rudy has a potential path and equally importantly, what Father Cavanaugh has done is given him hope. There is a next step. Go to Holy Cross Junior College and study hard and maybe, just maybe I can get Notre Dame. What Father Cavanaugh does is he gives him a lifeline and he tells him this is the next step towards maybe achieving your dream. It's incredible that Father Cavanaugh, who doesn't know Rudy from Adam would do that while it's still dark. I mean, its amazing that he would do that. He shows such compassion. It's truly remarkable.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's also interesting that of all the advice Rudy's gotten in the film so far, everybody who's given him advice like his dad, like the teacher on the bus, has come from a place of what they think is truth, right? But their truth always knocks Rudy back off of his dream. And this truth, to your point, gives him the hope. It doesn't make an easy path to his dream, right? But it does give him hope that his dream's achievable. That's really critical for anybody going through a crucible, isn't it? Speak truth, but speak it with hope on the end of it so that people continue to move forward.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a good point, Gary. I think what so many of the people in the movie have been sharing, especially Rudy's dad, maybe his girlfriend, Sherry, maybe his older brothers especially probably Frank, the message is really the truth that they're sharing from their perspective is dreams are impossible. Give it up, don't pursue their dreams. I would say from my perspective and our perspective of Beyond the Crucible, that is not truth. That is falsehood. That is wrong, to say that dreams by definition are impossible. It doesn't mean dreams are easy, but to say that by definition dreams are impossible and accept you a lot in life, that is not truth. That is untruth. It's very hurtful, but it's certainly not truth.
Gary Schneeberger:
For sure. The next small step that Rudy takes is to strike up a friendship with Dennis McGowan. Okay, Dennis McGowan is a teacher's aide at Holy Cross, his nickname, I don't understand why the film doesn't really tell us why, I don't think. His nickname is D-Bob, that's his friend, D-Bob. He's a shy student who's no good at all with girls, and he offers to tutor Rudy if Rudy agrees to tutor him in how to speak to girls, how to meet girls, that kind of stuff. Nothing untoward here. He's a shy young man that doesn't know how to talk to girls. So he wants Rudy to help him do that. The arrangement becomes a real friendship though, that helps both of them on their journeys, their separate journeys to what their visions are. So how is Rudy's friendship work with D-Bob instrumental to him overcoming the obstacles he faces trying to do well enough at Holy Cross to get a shot at going to Notre Dame.
Warwick Fairfax:
So as you say, Rudy meets D-Bob at Holy Cross, but Rudy is a very different person here in junior college than he was in high school. Rudy is studying like crazy. He's desperate to get good grades. He makes copious notes. People are saying, "Hey, this is all in the handouts, the notes. Why are you writing so many notes?" Well, Rudy is a man on a mission. He wants to get into Notre Dame and play football for Notre Dame. Well, the first step is you've got to get into Notre Dame to be able to play football. So he is really studying. And so yeah, then make this deal. And Rudy is willing to help this young guy. And Rudy, maybe he sees something in him, he respects him, but the deal is not an easy deal because D-Bob says, "Okay, I need you to help me to be able to talk to girls." Because He is tongue-tied.
Rudy is saying, in effect, "What do I know? I mean, I'm not the greatest expert in this." But Rudy is saying, "Okay, hang on, I can do this." It's like if he's thinking, "I can play football at Notre Dame", he's probably thinking, "I can find a way to teach this guy about something I don't know a whole lot about myself, but if that's what it's going to take, I'll figure it out." Certainly Rudy is not nearly as tongue-tied as D-Bob is. And so there are funny scenes in which Rudy will say to some girl in college, "Hey, D-Bob would like to talk to you. So tell this girl about yourself." And he just says nothing. He's like a sphinx.
Gary Schneeberger:
Frozen. Frozen.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so then basically almost like ventriloquist Rudy has to try and speak for him, put words in his mouth. I mean, D-Bob is just hopeless. I mean, he just cannot get a word out at all. But Rudy valiantly tries. And so in return, D-Bob does indeed coach him and helps him with his grades and importantly helps him get diagnosed. And Rudy finds out that he has dyslexia. So that's helpful. Certainly back then, I'm sure it wasn't that common to know that you had dyslexia. And so by being diagnosed, they can give you tools to help you manage that. So over time we find that D-Bob becomes another fellow traveler that comes to believe in Rudy and his dream and becomes a huge supporter and believe in Rudy. Rudy is somebody that with the right kind of people, he inspires belief in him and his dream, especially him and his character and his persistence. So he gathers fellow travelers as the movie and his life goes on.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he's not done yet because the third one to come along, he meets Fortune, a man named Fortune, who's the head groundskeeper at Notre Dame football stadium. The older man is wary of him at first. "Why is this kid hanging around?" But he eventually agrees to let him help with the upkeep of the field. And here's an interesting fact about the field that they show on the screen, Warwick, is that's the first time that the University of Notre Dame, that's actually this football stadium at the University of Notre Dame, and it's the first time since Knute Rockne All-American in 1940, that the university led a movie film there. Much like Father Cavanaugh didn't really have any reason to believe Rudy or trust Rudy or want to help Rudy. These guys didn't, at the university, the powers to be at the university didn't have any reason to necessarily believe Rudy was going to turn out to be the movie it did. And sure enough, it did and it worked out well for the university and for the filmmakers. So Warwick, what does Rudy gain in his relationship with Fortune?
Warwick Fairfax:
Fortune is another person that over time sees something special in Rudy. I mean, Rudy is basically saying to Fortune, "Look, I want to play for Notre Dame." And obviously you look at this young guy and he's small in stature, not athletic, not too much weight on him. You look at him and says, "Yeah, no, this is not happening." I mean, it's just a ridiculous notion. Rudy says he's willing to work for free, he just wants to be around the stadium, just get a little bit closer. And so Fortune, I think, is moved by him and impressed. So he actually pays him minimum wage. He pays him more than what Rudy was asking for, which is, "pay me nothing." And it's clear that Rudy has nowhere to stay. Rudy unlocks a window so we can sneak in at night and have somewhere to sleep. And Fortune sees this, sees him unlocking the window. And so what Fortune does is he leaves a key in a blanket on a cot for Rudy to find.
Now when Rudy says, "Hey, Fortune, thanks so much." Fortune denies it. "I don't know what you're talking about." Now, maybe it's like, "I don't want to admit that I'm doing something that probably breaks university rules and guidelines and hey, it wasn't me. I don't know what you're talking about." So he kind of secretly does it. So yeah, as we'll see, over time, Rudy gains a great fellow traveler and a great supporter in Fortune who comes to believe in Rudy and his dream, which is remarkable because in these opening scenes with Fortune, you'd say Fortune is a realist. He doesn't believe that this young guy is going to make the football team. I'm not even sure whether he believes he's going to be able to get into Notre Dame. But over time, Rudy, through his persistence and attitude, he makes Fortune a believer.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he also makes Father Cavanaugh a believer in the sense that he gets the second semester at Holy Cross, he gets even more time at Holy Cross. In fact, while he's at Holy Cross, his grades are up enough that he applies to Notre Dame three times over his two years at Holy Cross, and all three times he's rejected. After the final rejection, he has a meaningful conversation with Father Cavanaugh. Again, this is where we see Rudy's spirits drop again. They don't drop often, but every now and then they do and they drop after his third rejection from Notre Dame. Talk about that interaction he has with Father Cavanaugh.
Warwick Fairfax:
So you're right, this is a low ebb for Rudy. It's a third rejection. He feels like time is running out. So he happens to be in chapel and along comes Father Cavanaugh, he sees him and he comes over and speaks to Rudy. He could have just blown right past saying, "Yep, there's Rudy. He's looking a bit dejected, he's praying. I tried to help the kid, but look, I'm busy. Got other stuff to do", but he doesn't. He goes up to Rudy and talks to him, and Rudy says that if he doesn't get into Notre Dame in the next semester, it's over. It's done. His time will have run out. And so Father Cavanaugh clearly admires Rudy for chasing down his dream. And Rudy says, if he doesn't get in, it doesn't mean anything, it's all meaningless. Well, father Cavanaugh speaks truth again, and he pushes back a bit and says he thinks Rudy will discover that it will. In other words, even if he doesn't get in, there's still meaning in the journey in effect.
And so Rudy says, "Well, maybe I haven't prayed enough." And Father Cavanaugh says, "Well, that's not the problem. Praying we do in our time, the answers come in God's time." Very profound. Those of us who pray will often be thinking, "Gosh, now will be a good time." And God maybe, "Well, not yet." "Seriously? Not yet." But that's often the answer we get in effect. So Rudy asks if he's done everything he can and if Father Cavanaugh can help him. Well, father Cavanaugh has done what he can. Father Cavanaugh can't magically ensure that Rudy is going to be admitted to Notre Dame and play football. So again, what Father Cavanaugh does is tell him the truth. Father Cavanaugh says that there are two incontrovertible facts. "There is a God, and I'm not him." It's so well said. So having fellow travelers means having people who won't just encourage us, but they tell us the truth, not the truth. Like, "Oh, dreams aren't possible." That's not truth. That's falsehood from our perspective, but not sugarcoating how easy it's going to be or that there won't be roadblocks.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right? Well, guess what? Father Cavanaugh's words, "We pray on our time. The answers come in God's time." God's time comes in the next beat of the film, the fourth application that Rudy sends to Notre Dame is successful. He goes home to show his family his acceptance letter and his dad shares the news. It's a very sweet moment. His dad grabs the microphone and the steel mill and shares the news over the microphone that his son's going to Notre Dame. And now a Notre Dame student, Rudy can try out for the team as a walk-on because Notre Dame's coach Ara Parseghian does indeed allow, only coach in the history of the university who allows walk-ons to come in and try to make the team. So Rudy's got his immediate path set before him. He shows up to try out with several other hopefuls.
An assistant coach whose last name is Warren, that's all we know about him. Warren warns the walk-ons that 35 scholarship players will not even make the dress list, guys who get to put on uniforms, of players who take the field during games. But Rudy is undeterred even after it's explained to the hopefuls that if they make the team, they only make the practice team. They're to be tackled and blocked by actual players on the team. He's not dissuaded, he doesn't care. He keeps pushing forward. Rudy is selected to be on the practice squad. Warwick, it's a thankless role being on the practice squad but Rudy attacks it with passion. You might even say passion that is off the charts. What do we learn about Rudy during this time on the practice squad and in the scenes that depict his time on the practice squad?
Warwick Fairfax:
So here we are now, Rudy's football practice at Notre Dame and the coaches there, they are not sugarcoating what's going on. They are speaking truth. It's like truth as brutal as you can possibly share-
Gary Schneeberger:
With a capital T for sure.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh my gosh. They say, "Okay, there's like 95 players here. Only 60 players can dress for home games, which means that 35 scholarship players, 35 scholarship players will watch from the stands." Now of the walk-ons, those who don't have scholarships, "there are like 15 dreamers here", they say, "maybe we'll keep one or two." And he says, "Over these next five days, we'll beat you up pretty badly. We'll just knock everything out of you. We'll be running opposition plays week in, week out, and your greatest value is that we are here if you get hurt." So this is all said to the walk-ons. I'm not exactly inspiring confidence in Rudy. It's like, "We're going to beat everything out of you and your chances of making it on the team are like, I don't know, about as high as climbing Mount Everest or something without any oxygen tanks."
Gary Schneeberger:
It's not the kind of speech that young Rudy would've been saying to his friends like he was saying the Knute Rockne speech, for sure.
Warwick Fairfax:
No, it is not that. So this is both intimidating and not really very helpful. But despite this, Rudy gives it his all. One assistant coach says to the other assistant coach, "We need to ditch Rudy. I mean, look, he's small, not athletic." But the other one says, "Rudy is giving more effort than anyone else on the team." There are some very talented athletes, big guys, but it's just amazing. And one of the assistant coaches says that Rudy's made the team. It doesn't mean he's going to dress and play, but at least he's on the practice squad. At least he gets to turn up for practices rather than just go home.
So it's not like he's achieved his dream, but it's a key step. He's not only has he got into Notre Dame, he is made the practice squad of the Notre Dame football team. By every area of logic, okay, maybe he deserves to get to Notre Dame because he studied so hard, but there's no way this kid deserves to be on the practice squad, at least in terms of his physicality, size. But one of the assistant coaches, he sees something in him and he wants to give him a shot. So a lot of coaches would not do that. I wouldn't say it makes that much sense, but there's one coach, he sees something special in Rudy and Rudy's amazed. He hugs the coach, he says, "Thank you." Rudy can't believe it, that he's been given a shot.
Gary Schneeberger:
And we get to see something special in Rudy as we watch the scenes of him on the practice squad, right? He is getting pummeled play after play after play. There's one big offensive lineman, nearly, and I'm not making this up nearly twice the size of Rudy, who just keeps plowing him into the ground because he's playing defense. And at one point the guy misses his block on purpose because he just doesn't want to hurt Rudy. He's worried he's going to really hurt him badly.
And after the play, he tells Rudy to cool it or he's going to end up getting himself killed. And Rudy gets mad at that and Rudy says, "If I cool it, I won't be helping you guys win." That's what the coaches get the chance to see now is the heart and the passion that comes even with limited physical ability. And there's another confrontation between Rudy and his starting halfback on the team. And that player, the starting halfback is like, "Whoa, slow down kid. You're playing like it's the championship. And this is just practice." He like, he doesn't want anybody to get hurt and he wants everybody to sort of take it at half speed. So Coach Parseghian actually chastises the halfback, demotes him and tells Rudy, "I wish I could put your heart into some of my players' bodies." That's what's happening. Rudy's heart is showing through. So Parseghian does agree to let Rudy dress for a real game after seeing that heart at play. Rudy wants to do it. Rudy says, "For everybody who told me playing Notre Dame football would be impossible." Talk about this interaction work between Rudy and Coach Parseghian.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Rudy shows a lot of courage. The only reason that Rudy is allowed to go to the next step, okay, he's on the practice squad. The next step is dressing for the team for a game is because he goes to the head coach Parseghian and ask if he can be on the team. Rudy is honest, he's does not sugarcoat his request. He says that God made certain people to be football players and he, Rudy is not one of them. As you said, the head coach says that he wishes God put Rudy's heart in some of his players bodies. Rudy says that he would love to give his father a gift if he can play in one game. This would also be for everyone who said that being a Notre Dame football player is impossible, for my brothers, the kids at my high school and the guys I work with at the steel mill.
And the coach says, okay, which is incredible and that Rudy deserves it and he'll dress for one game. Now, this is amazing that Coach Parseghian would actually give Rudy a shot by all rights, logically, he doesn't deserve a shot. There's only a limited amount of people that can dress. You got to win every game. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense logically for the team, but yet the head coach doesn't do what's logical. He does what he thinks is right. He listens to his heart. And so the important lesson here is Rudy is not passive. He doesn't just sit back and says, "Okay, I'm going to wait for my dream to come true. And if it doesn't, oh well." He's not passive. He actively fights for it. He actively goes to see the head coach, Coach Parseghian and says, "Coach, just let me play one game."
And he makes it clear that no, he doesn't have the athletic ability of other plays. He is not the same size, "But let me play one game for my dad, for my family, for my brothers, for the guys at the steel mill." And it's just amazing. If Rudy hadn't spoken to Coach Parseghian, he would not have had any hope of playing in a game and he would not have played in a game. It was only his courage of doing what most people would say, "Give it up kid. There's no way the head coach is going to give you a shot. It won't work. You've got zero chance of succeeding." But Rudy is thinking to himself, "Maybe it's a hopeless cause, but I'm going to give it my all. I'm going to go to the coach and see what he says." There's a huge lesson for all of us in how Rudy showed up that day and the fact that he even went to the head coach.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right? And because this podcast is called Beyond the Crucible, guess what, we're not done with crucibles yet for Rudy. Rudy Ruettiger has at least one more crucible in him, or the world has at least one more crucible for him because Parseghian, the coach resigns before the end of the year. The guy who said, "You're going to get into the game", resigns. The new coach is Dan Devine, who came from the NFL, who comes from the NFL, he's actually the coach of the Green Bay Packers. And he doesn't seem to see the same heart in Rudy that Coach Parseghian saw. So each week, Rudy checks the locker room list of players who are dressing to play in the game on Saturday, and he's turned down every single week he goes and looks, right up until the end of the season. Rudy's a senior and this is his final year. So as his name's being crossed off, he sees his dream slipping away.
What happens next to Rudy is something that can happen to any of us really, when we keep encountering disappointment and pursuit of our vision, he gives up, he quits the team, he walks away. Why is that the wrong choice? Not just for Rudy, but for any of us who face disappointment in the face of a crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's at this point, the two fellow travelers really encourage him. Now, there's one person we haven't covered so far. He doesn't have a prominent role in the movie, but one of the other players that are on the squad, if you will, he's a legacy player, which means that his family had gone to Notre Dame. And in the US if you have family that go to a college and let's say they donate, that probably helps. It helps you get in as core being a legacy. And he's clearly from a wealthy family and he really doesn't have a very good attitude. He really didn't want to go to Notre Dame, but his dad makes it clear, "If you don't go there, I'm not paying for college." He would've had a better shot playing for a lesser college in terms of football prowess than Notre Dame. So it was like he feels like forced to go there and he just has a bad attitude.
But this guy, Jim, he says to Rudy, he doesn't want Rudy to quit. In fact, he's angry at him for quitting because he said one of the reasons that Jim didn't quit is because of Rudy. So here's Rudy that inspires his kid from the other side of the tracks. In other words, the wealthy side, they have very little in common, but Jim just admires Rudy's attitude. And so Rudy is having a big impact on lots of people. And one of these people is Jim. So Rudy then talks to Fortune, the groundskeeper at Notre Dame Stadium, and he says that he wanted to dress and run out of the tunnel onto the field for his dad. And Fortune says, "There are more important things than dressing for the team."
And Fortune speaks really hard truth to Rudy. He says, "You're five foot nothing, a hundred pounds nothing. You have barely a speck of athletic ability. And you hung in there with the best college football players in the land for two years, and you're going to walk out of here with a degree from the University of Notre Dame. In this life, you don't have to prove nothing to nobody but yourself. And after what you've gone through, if you haven't done that by now, it ain't never going to happen. Now go on back." So basically Fortune is encouraging him to say, "Look, you've made it to the University of Notre Dame." That is something after all." Given Rudy's working class background, which I'm sure Fortune is familiar with by now, this is not normal to go to college. It's like I'm unprecedented. "So be thankful for what you've achieved. Don't you realize you've proved a lot to yourself about what you can achieve? I mean, surely you've learned something by now?"
But then Fortune has this really heartbreaking story about his own life, about Fortune's life. And he said that he, Fortune, rode the bench for two years, in other words, didn't play. And he thought that he was not being played because of the color of his skin, Fortune being African American. Now, we don't know if that's true or not, but what Fortune says is that he quit. "And not a week goes by that I don't regret it." So Fortune quits. So rather than keeping trying and seeing if they would pick him, because Fortune is a big guy, clearly is a big athletic guy, you would've thought Fortune should have had a good shot of making the team. But rather than seeing what would happen, he quit until he took the decision out of the coach's hands.
Fortune says, Rudy will regret it if Rudy doesn't go to practice and try. So Rudy hears Fortune and he goes to practice. So the clear role of the story is even we feel like life is unfair and we have no shot. Our name is not on the list. We need to give it out all to the very end. Even if we don't make the team, even if we don't, in this case dress and run for the tunnel and play in a play in the game, we need to give our all to the end. A, we don't know what's going to happen. And B, the point is not so much whether we on the team, but to give it our all right to the very end. That's really the lesson that Fortune is trying to teach Rudy.
Gary Schneeberger:
And Rudy listens. Rudy listens to everybody who says, "Go back." He does indeed go back to practice. And when he comes back, the entire field of players applauds him as he runs back onto the field to go be part of the practice squad again. And then follows after that, one of the most moving scenes in the entire movie, which is full of a lot of moving scenes. Let's watch that right now.
Dan Devine:
Yeah. Oh, hi Roland. Come in.
Roland:
I want Rudy to dress in my place, Coach. He deserves it.
Dan Devine:
Don't be ridiculous. Georgia Tech is one of the top offensive teams in the country. You're an All-American and our captain act like it.
Roland:
I believe I am.
Speaker 5:
Me too, coach. I want Rudy to dress in my place.
Speaker 6:
Coach, this is for Rudy.
Speaker 7:
For Rudy, Coach.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, why is that scene so powerful in the story of Rudy, all he's been through to get where he is at and where he finds himself at that moment, what's the power of that scene?
Warwick Fairfax:
This is a profound scene because it shows in a sense that the whole Notre Dame football team, they're Rudy's team of fellow travelers, they're willing to put their whole careers on the line so Rudy gets a shot at playing one game for Notre Dame. It is a remarkable scene that I think the head coach has never seen before in his whole career and probably never will again. He just cannot believe what he's seeing with his eyes. He's just dumbstruck.
Gary Schneeberger:
And cue the euphoria because Rudy does get to play in the Fighting Irish's final game. And he doesn't just get to suit up, he gets to take the field and he actually gets to make a play. His dream is fully realized. He has moved from, in our words, trial to triumph. Warwick, these final scenes that I'm talking about from this game show, not just Rudy on the field, but his fellow travelers and his family in the stands and on the field, his fellow travelers from the team. His dream is fully realized. What happens when all he's ever wanted finally miraculously happens? How does that play out?
Warwick Fairfax:
So when Rudy hears that he's actually going to dress for this final game, he calls home. His brother, Frank picks up the phone, which is probably the last person he wants to really pass this message. The person who believes in him less than anyone on the planet, basically, unfortunately. He says, "Frank, please tell dad I'm going to dress for the game." Because he's said to his dad, "Look, if I dress for the game, I want you there. I want you there at the stadium." A place that his dad has never been, his dad has never been to his beloved Notre Dame football stadium. And so the message does indeed get passed on. So we see Rudy's dad, his mom, his brothers, they're all there.
And there's a scene where Rudy is standing inside the stadium and he looks around at the stadium, the field on the players, and Rudy's dad says, "This is the most beautiful site these eyes have ever seen." This is a team he's only ever watched on TV, at least when we're seeing them grow up. When we're seeing Rudy grow up in the sixties, they're watching it on a black and white TV. So probably for the majority of Rudy's dad's life, he watched the team on a small black and white TV. He's getting to see his beloved Notre Dame football team. This is a remarkable honor.
The captain then asked Rudy to lead the team out on the field. The smallest guy, the least athletic on the team is running the team out. That says everything. That Rudy is the heart and soul of this team. And it's a wonderful scene when Fortune and Rudy's family see this, they see Rudy at the head of the team coming out. And it's not lost on them what this means, this is not done on accident. I mean, this is incredible.
So it's almost the end of the game. And Rudy has not been in any of the plays. Rudy is desperate to have one play where he is in the game. And the assistant coach and the captain of the team keep asking the head coach if Rudy can play. And the head coach says, "No. Okay, he's dressing for the team, but come on, they're up against Georgia Tech. It's a tough team. Every play counts." There's no way the head coach is going to allow him on. And so then the whole team, the assistant coach, and then everyone in the stands shouts, Rudy's name, "Rudy, Rudy, Rudy." It's just incredible. And so then what happens is another incredible moment, the offense takes matters into their own hands. They completely ignore the play the coach wants them to play, which in football, you don't ignore instructions from the head coach.
Gary Schneeberger:
And his instructions are like, you see in football all the time, folks, "Take a knee, the game's won." They're leading by enough points that, "Take the knee, the game's over, let's go celebrate." But to your point, they don't do that. The team decides not to do that.
Warwick Fairfax:
So the offense knows that they have to score so that Rudy on defense can come in the game. Unless the defense are playing, Rudy doesn't play.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So they make one play is an incredible play. It's a passing play, and they score a touchdown. The head coach with the game won is thinking, "What the heck is going on? I asked them to take a knee, they're running a play. I mean, that's ridiculous." Bad things can, when you do things like that, maybe they could intercept the ball. You don't do stuff like that. As I mentioned, they do score, and at this point, the head coach finally reluctantly lets Rudy play. I mean, it's not been easy, but in this game even. And so, because this is an incredible story on this final play, Rudy actually sacks the Georgia Tech quarterback, the head coach can't believe it, Rudy, this small guy, this unathletic guy. Somehow he finds a way to sack the quarterback. He just shakes his head. He cannot believe it. The team raises Rudy on their shoulders.
Rudy's family and Fortune are overjoyed. Even Rudy's brother, Frank smiles and shows respect. It takes a lot to get Frank to smile and show respect, but somehow it's had an impact in Frank's life. The end credits tell us that since 1975, at least until this movie was made in 1993, no other Notre Dame play has ever been carried off the field. So here we see Rudy's taken off the field. He's on their shoulders. Rudy graduates from Notre Dame in 1976, and he sets an example for the rest of his family because five of Rudy's younger brothers go on to college. I can't imagine that would've happened without Rudy's example,
Gary Schneeberger:
And that is, we talk a lot about a life of significance. Rudy's life of significance set the vision for his brothers to all go to college, to all. I mean, that is a life of significance, for sure, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Surely is. I mean, Rudy's had a big impact on a lot of people. His had an impact on his dad that his dad can't believe that. Not only did Rudy get into Notre Dame, he actually played on his beloved football team, his dad's beloved football team, Notre Dame. He's earned the respect of his brothers, including his brother Frank, who I guess because he is not pursued his own dreams, just really has given no support or encouragement to Rudy. Rudy has inspired all the players on his football team who've let him go on first onto the field, who've carried him off on their shoulders. He's inspired and moved Fortune and Jim, the legacy player on the team, D-Bob who was with him in junior college. He is inspired so many with his courage, his fortitude, folks like Father Cavanaugh.
He's inspired a lot of people with his grit and his determination to pursue a dream that would seem to be an absolutely impossible dream. His life of significance, has just been huge with everybody that's known him or come in contact with him. There are a few people like Rudy. His story is just, is miraculous.
Gary Schneeberger:
A couple bits of trivia before I ask you the last question, Warwick. One is, you mentioned the scene at the end when they carry him off the field. And they say, interestingly, as you mentioned in the end credits, he was the last player to be carried off the field in 1975 until the movie was made in 1993. As it turns out, another player was carried off the field in 1995. But here's what the movie didn't tell you in the end of that scene. He was the first player in Notre Dame history to be carried off the field. Even Knute Rockne himself, the All-American, the big star of Notre Dame, he wasn't carried off the field by his teammates. So that's interesting to me.
And the other thing that's interesting is that we started out folks talking about how this is based on a true story that Rudy Ruettiger really lived, really played. Well, if you do a search for the NCAA football records of Rudy Ruettiger, there's one line. All it lists is what Warwick talked about. He sacked a player. He has one sack. That's it. That's the only line in Rudy Ruettiger's college football career. But it's in the record books. Not only was he on the field, he was in the record books. He is in the record books to this day. So last question, Warwick, let me ask you this. We've talked about a lot. How does this underdog story about Rudy offer hope and inspiration to move beyond our own crucibles, especially in the face of challenging circumstances and our being underestimated by others?
Warwick Fairfax:
What's so moving about Rudy, it's not so much that Rudy went to Notre Dame or even that he played for their football team. It is more the level of effort that Rudy showed in trying to accomplish his dream. There were many who doubted that his dream would be possible to get into Notre Dame and certainly play for the football team. This kid is undersized, not many pounds on him. Not much athletic ability. I mean, getting Notre Dame would be almost impossible. Playing on the football team clearly would be impossible. So when many of that doubted him, many actively discouraged him, including his dad and his brother, Frank. I mean, there were just a whole bunch of people that just, "Give it up." As I mentioned, his dad and brothers, they weren't supportive at all. They just felt like Rudy's from a working class family, "People like us, that we work in the mill, we work in steel mills, just don't cling to dreams that it's just not for people like us. It'll never happen." But Rudy would not give up.
He was helped greatly by a series of supportive fellow travelers. He started with his best friend Pete, who tragically died in an accident in the steel mill. With D-Bob at Junior College. Father Cavanaugh and Fortune. They provided him vital encouragement to keep going, but both Father Cavanaugh and Fortune, in effect, they tried to help Rudy see that the effort that Rudy was displaying in pursuing his dreams was as important as achieving the dream. Now, it, Rudy did achieve his dream, but from their perspective, whether he achieved his dream or not, the sheer fact of his determination to pursue his dream, that was success in of itself. And that's something that we should all learn from. So the beauty of Rudy's story is in pursuing your dream. Now, whether you achieve it or not, because we're not all going to have the ending that Rudy achieved, but it's about not listening to the naysayers, getting encouragement from your fellow travelers. And really in the effort and the striving for our dreams, that's where we find joy, fulfillment, and satisfaction. It's not just achieving a goal, it's just the joy of the pursuit.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, the lights are on in the theater. Gather up your empty popcorn and soda boxes and glasses, toss them away on your way out. We will be back again next week with the fourth film in our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles, and that is a big movie, Les Miserables, we are going to be talking about. So we'll see you next week and save you a seat. Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment, unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Big Screen, Big Crucibles II: Hidden Figures
The three African-American women at the center of HIDDEN FIGURES, the second film in our summer series BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES, face marginalization and discrimination for their gender and their race in 1961. But they summon grit, fortitude and brilliance that prove critical to the U.S winning the Space Race against the Russians.
They would all become NASA legends … and are inspirational examples we all can follow to move beyond our own crucibles.
Dive deeper into your personal narratives with our BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES guided journal, meticulously crafted to enhance your experience with our podcast series exploring cinema’s most transformative crucible stories. This journal serves as a dedicated space for introspection, inviting you to connect the profound journeys of on-screen characters with the pivotal moments that have shaped your own life.
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👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
We find that all three women, they're fighting the system and they're finding ways to succeed against this ramped discrimination. And they're beginning to find ways through a round over their crucibles to have their visions become reality. Each in different ways, but it's just amazing how none of these three women are going to give up.
Gary Schneeberger:
The Three Women Warwick is describing are the characters at the center of Hidden Figures, the second film in our summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles. As we discuss their grit, fortitude, and brilliance are critical to the U.S. winning the space race against the Russians in the early 1960s. They would all become NASA legends and our inspirational examples we all can follow to move beyond our own crucibles. Welcome friends. We are back to our summer series. We had so much fun, as we said last week, last year with our summer series on classic films and the lessons they can teach us about overcoming crucibles that we're doing it again this summer. And this year we are calling it Big Screen, Big Crucibles. For eight weeks this summer, this is our second one, we'll be taking a look at films that feature a wide variety of crucibles. Insightful lessons they teach us about how not only to bounce back from those crucibles, but casting a vision for and charting a course for a life of significance.
And our film this week is... I'm not going to go with that. We don't need it. We're just going to say it straight up. Our film this week is Hidden Figures. Scott, we'll save the drum roll for what our next movie's going to be at the end. Our film this week is Hidden Figures, and that film came out in 2016. And here's its official synopsis, "In the heart of the space race, three brilliant African-American women at NASA, working as 'human computers' become the unsung heroes behind the launch of John Glenn into orbit, defying racial and gender barriers while proving their genius." Warwick, obviously, this is a movie we both like very much. We talked about it quite a bit as we prepared for this.
Before we dive into the crucibles that these ladies who make up the three main cast members of this film, the crucibles they face, and how they overcame them, and what their actions can teach us about how we can overcome our own crucibles, this is the third time we've done this thing, films, and what they can teach us about overcoming crucibles. What are you hoping our listeners and viewers get out of these discussions this time around in our series this year?
Warwick Fairfax:
Gary, we both love movies and we love superhero movies, sports movies, which you've done a series on. Last year was a really fun series, the American Film Institute's Top 100 movies. And I think the reason that I liked them, I believe, we liked them, is that, these great movies, they portray a protagonist that's typically facing significant challenges that they seek to overcome. And that's really what we do here at Beyond The Crucible. We talk to guests who had to overcome significant challenges, and bounce back, and lead a life of significance. So this year, we thought we'd look at some of the best movies that we could think of that show people overcoming really significant crucibles to lead a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, and all these movies which we really are enjoying discussing, they all do that. They all feature protagonists who have to face long odds to overcome significant barriers, significant crucibles to move forward to indeed achieve a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I like it for one additional reason, because it's the one time of year really when your Australian way of articulating things comes out and you say, "Protagonist." Which I just love, as opposed to the American, "Protagonist." Right? Yeah, it sounds very poetic.
Warwick Fairfax:
I didn't even know. So there you go.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Honestly, I mean, I like it, because it just makes it sound so much better than when I say, "Protagonist." So, yes. So let's start talking about those protagonists, folks. The first crucible all three ladies in this movie face, as the film kicks off, the women that we're going to be talking about are Katherine Goble, who will later be Katherine Johnson, more on that later, Dorothy Vaughan, and Mary Jackson. They live in Hampton, Virginia and work in nearby Langley at NASA. They are part of the computing team. When you hear that, don't think machines think computations in your brain. Really smart people, because this is 1961. And those machines aren't widely available for folks, not even at NASA. So the computing team are people who compute things in their minds. So keep that in your mind. And these women who are doing the computing, truly, they fuel our race to get into space. It's not that big of a stretch to say as much as the fuel that fuels the rockets that get us to space. So very, very important what they do, and it'll come through as we discuss this film.
One of the first scenes, Warwick, in the film introduces a concept that will help the ladies handle the crucibles they face. We call it having a team of fellow travelers. What is that scene that really stood out to you in the film and how does it show the importance of having people around you who believe in you when others might not? Because there's a lot of others might not in Hidden Figures for the ladies at the center of the story.
Warwick Fairfax:
So in this opening scene, her parents are talking to her teachers and it would appear it could be an African-American school, because all the teachers we see are African-American. And these teachers, they say that Katherine's mind is exceptional and that she has to go to another school. One teacher says to Katherine's parents, "You have to see what she becomes." And the teachers really believe in Katherine. They gather together some money to send Katherine onto the next school, the school that has maybe better teaching, more opportunities to truly help Katherine be the best she can be with incredible talent, because it's very clear that Katherine's parents and her teachers realize that Katherine has an exceptional mathematical mind. It's not overstating to say that her mind is a genius level.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And they realize this. And obviously, for a young African-American child, that's not going to be easy to really fully utilize her genius and her brilliance, but they want to do everything they can to help her reach her full potential. And so, this early scene really shows it's so important and helpful to have people who believe in us, perhaps they see qualities in us that we don't see, and maybe they see something exceptional in us, which we might find about what could be exceptional in us. But, I think we all have something that's at least special. Not all of us are at the genius level that Katherine Goble is, but having somebody that sees-
Gary Schneeberger:
Especially not in math. Especially not in math.
Warwick Fairfax:
... I hear you there. So having people that sees something special in us and are really willing to get a bat for us and help us is just so helpful.
Gary Schneeberger:
And in the context of this film, and I think in the context of experiences with crucibles, it's helpful, because there are many people that Katherine and the other ladies in this movie will meet throughout this film who don't believe in her, who don't have a great opinion of her, who think that she's not going to be able to rise up. There's prejudice involved, because this is 1960s, and they are African-American women. So having fellow travelers, yes, it's people who encourage us, but that encouragement can stick with us and we can draw on that as we run into a lack of encouragement as we go forward, can't we?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's so true. Having a team of fellow travelers, a team of cheerleaders that are in our corner, because you're very right, Gary, there are many people that want to pull us down. Maybe they're just jealous of our skills, or who we are, or maybe they feel threatened by us. And so, there are many that may say as many people that will pull us down. So it's really critically important to have fellow travelers, cheerleaders who believe in us, especially in those times when we doubt ourselves or other people are trying to pull us down.
Gary Schneeberger:
Speaking of crucibles, our first hint at the crucibles of Katherine, Mary, and Dorothy will face is when their car breaks down on their way to work. A police officer stops by when he sees they've stalled, but he's not really there to help them in the beginning. Talk about that scene a little bit. How does this early scene set the stage, the parameters, if you will, of what these ladies will face throughout this film?
Warwick Fairfax:
So here we have really the first scene where these three women are adults. And, as you mentioned, it's 1961, it's Virginia. Virginia is obviously in the south. And, yes, John F. Kennedy is president, and things are beginning to change, but this is very early days in the Civil Rights Movement. And it sure doesn't seem like it's reached Virginia at this point. So you have their car broken down and here comes this white police officer wondering what's happening. And so, they're obviously nervous. Three black women, broken down car, white police officer. And so, they just try to calmly explain to the officer that they all work at NASA in Langley, Virginia. And then, they very intelligently engage in a discussion about the space race. You've got the Russians that have made some progress, or making progress, and it almost feels like at this point they may be a step ahead of the U.S. And, they all agree on the importance of helping the U.S. astronauts, like John Glenn, get into space.
And so, by talking about the space race, and really helping the U.S., and the space race against the Russians, and John Glenn, they find a point of agreement, a point of commonality, a point of something they both believe in. And so, this is a great example, is when faced with potential confrontation, when you feel there may be a difference between you and some other people, maybe there's difference of opinion, or in this case, you've got racial and gender challenges, potentially discrimination here with this white officer, finding common ground and what you can agree on is very helpful. In fact, the white police officer says, "Can I escort you to work? I don't want you to be late." And he has his siren on. I mean, that's next level being helpful. Not too many police officers stop us and say, "Can I help you and put the sirens on to clear traffic?" That's not normal. So they really handled that situation, which could have been a very problematic situation very well. It was a really great example of how to deal with challenges.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it was interesting, that scene starts out, when he pulls them over and he walks out of the car, you see him from behind as he's walking toward the car and he's got his nightstick out of his pocket, right? Out of his thing. I mean, he's ready for... Right? There's African-Americans there. And he is as a white officer in Virginia thinking that he may run into some trouble. And, just how quickly that turns when he talks to them and they talk about what they do. And you're right, he turns the sirens on, and the lights on, and two of them at least are a little like, "Oh, that's strange. I don't know. I don't want to get too..." And one of them is like, "Yeah, this is the way it should be."
So we'll learn all more about the personalities of these ladies and why they have that reaction. But it's a great scene to both introduce us to the themes of the film in terms of the racism that's there, even subtly so in many cases. But also, the personalities of these exceptional women. So the ladies finally do make it to the office, thanks to the police escort. And when they get there, we see that they work at a segregated NASA literally toiling in a separate building from the main crew working on getting the space program off the ground. They're having an impact, but they're not allowed to fulfill their full potential. That's because the government thinks that it's all women and African-Americans can handle is what they're being asked to do. There's sexism and racism at work here we see pretty quickly. In these early scenes, Warwick, what stands out for you once we get them into NASA and we see the machinations of what's going on there.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, for these African-American women, they have two challenges against them, they're African-American and they're women. Two strikes against them in this time where certainly it would be assumed in the early-60s, women should be secretaries, but not much else, irrespective of race. That alone would be a challenge. But, it's the fact that African-American and women. So these two factors would definitely limit them in 1961, Virginia. And we see Dorothy, who is the de facto supervisor of a group of African-American women at NASA. She talks to a boss, Leah Mitchell, about formally getting the title of supervisor, which we would assume gets increased pay. And, basically, her boss says, "Not at this time." So she has the role, we would assume, without the pay, right?
Gary Schneeberger:
All the responsibility, none of the extra money.
Warwick Fairfax:
And Dorothy is a smart person. She realized what's going on. And she wants the formal title, because A, it's right. And B, one would assume that the pay goes with it. And then, one of the other women, Mary, she talks to her boss, Carl Zalinski, who is a Polish Jew, who is one of the engineers working on the rockets. And, interestingly enough, Carl encourages Mary to apply to be an engineer. And Mary pushes back and says, "Look, that's impossible for people like me, with my race to get a job as an engineer, that's never going to happen." And Carl pushes back and says, "We're living the impossible. This is the space age." And, Carl identifies, to a degree, with Mary saying that he's lost family members in the Holocaust and World War II. And, his family obviously knows something about persecution, to say the least.
And, in some ways, I don't know if it's a kindred spirit, but Carl just really advocates for Mary. And, over time, Mary would actually listen to that encouragement. "We're living the impossible." And so, we see that for these African-American women in 1961, Virginia, capability and intelligence are not enough. In an ideal world, in a fair world, in a just world, capability, and intelligence, and a work ethic is all that's required, but not here. It's just not enough, not for these three women.
Gary Schneeberger:
And, it's interesting, we've all heard about the glass ceiling, right? Certain groups can't get up there because there's a glass ceiling. Really, for women and African-American women in particular at NASA, it seems like that's made of bulletproof glass, just these early scenes make it very clear that their upward mobility is not going to be easy, it's probably just not going to happen. That's the odds they're facing at the beginning.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right. Right. You're right. Very well said. Not so much that it's challenging, it's impossible. "It's not your place." Say the people above her, "For you, an African-American woman to rise above your station of being basically a secretary of some very low level administrative work. It's unthinkable and it's not possible. And it's not challenging. It won't happen." That's the attitude of the people above them. So yes, it's a very difficult situation, to say the least.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, when I was watching these scenes, in my mind, I couldn't help but paraphrase Dr. Martin Luther King, that what they're facing is they're not being judged by, I'll say, the content of their intelligence, right? King said, "Content of their character." They're not being judged by the content of their intelligence, they're being judged by the color of their skin. And, that will continue to plague them for a while. But, stay tuned, folks, because this is a movie with a happy ending. I'll give you that. Things begin to change when Katherine, the most mathematically gifted of the trio is assigned to the space task group, charged with literally getting the U.S. space program off the ground to catch up with the Russians who have a head start. At this time in the Cold War, space is considered a critical arena for the U.S. to master to continue being the world's greatest superpower.
So when Katherine arrives at the office for the space task force, one of the men there though, thinking that she's a new janitor, hands her a garbage can that hasn't been empty from the night before. Again, what they're up against. But we also meet her boss, Al Harrison, who tells her he's been through a dozen computers, again, human computers in 11 months, and he's been unable to find a good one. And he's hoping she'll be that good one. This pretty strongly sets up this idea that Katherine's going to have to face a lot of trial before she can get to triumph. Every bit of work she does and how she does it will be severely scrutinized. Why is this such a difficult crucible to encounter? Because it's hard to encounter, but it's also hard to endure. Why is that?
Warwick Fairfax:
So these early scenes with Katherine is very instructive. Remember, just the rampant gender and race discrimination. Here she is, Katherine, an African-American woman coming into a room of pretty much all white men who were doing the work. And, as she comes into this circular room, all eyes are on her as if, "What is she doing here?" She's out of place. They're just staring and they're dumbfounded. They just can't get what she's doing there. Al Harrison as we'll discover is a very tough taskmaster. He has a job to do. He wants to get astronauts like John Glenn into space. He sets high standards for everyone, and he will do whatever it takes to accomplish his goal. That is the overriding part of his personality, which as we'll see, there can be challenges with that. But there are also opportunities. In his first interaction with Katherine, in part, because Katherine is so quiet, Al Harrison asks Katherine, "Can you do math and can you speak?" And, she says yes to both.
And so then, Harrison gives us a mathematical test, like a bunch of pages with computation on it, and in a flash, she explains what it is, what math it is, and it's very clear she knows a lot about math. So it doesn't take Harrison long to realize, "Okay, got it. She is really intelligent." That's pretty much all he needs to know. I mean, he's a pretty much of a one track mind, "Can you do the job? Are you smart? Can you help me get people in space?" That's pretty much how you would sum Al Harrison.
So there's a potential with Harrison. But a lot of the others, like Paul Stafford, who was the lead engineer, who in some sense, unfortunately, Katherine will have a lot to do with, all of them give icy stares to Katherine. And, somebody has put another coffee maker out there on the coffee table on the side of the room with the word colors printed on the label. This is a coffee maker for white people. And then, one for African-Americans, for colors as they called them back then. So Stafford seems to feel threatened by Katherine and is dismissive of her work. So Harrison has told Katherine to check Stafford's work. Can you imagine? I can't think of too many things more threatening to some white engineer to have some black woman come in and be told, "Check this guy's work because maybe he's made mistakes." That will feel, in the culture, very demeaning to Stafford.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he does it in front of the whole team.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Again, Harrison's got a job to do. He doesn't care what people are thinking. And, Harrison, when he can see people are pushing back, he says, "America's greatest minds will not have a problem getting their work checked." So he tried to put people in their place. And Stafford, of course, tries to make things as impossible as he can. So he gets these sheets of paper and he starts redacting most of what's on there. In other words, he gets some black highlight, or magic marker, or whatever and just blacks out pretty much everything he can. He says it's classified and she doesn't have clearance. Well, how in the world is Katherine going to check his computations when she can't see three quarters of them?
Now, Katherine being a smart person, holds up those sheets of paper to the light and you can actually see the computations through the blacked out. So later on, there's a funny scene where Harrison and Stafford are like, "You can't get how she can figure this out." He said, "I hold it up to the light and I can see it." And they hold it up to the light. "Well, I guess she can too." So she outsmarts them pretty early on.
Gary Schneeberger:
And then, at the time, one of them says, "How do we fix that?" And, Harrison says, "Get darker ink."
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, really?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Which was just extraordinarily funny.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I think he was probably being sarcastic as I don't think he could care less. But there's another interesting aspect to this, is that in the building where Katherine now works, there is no "colored restroom." She has to go all the way over the other side of campus. I mean, it's a long way where she used to work to go to an African-American restroom, a colored bathroom as they called it. And so, she's running through rain or whatever it is, and even when she's in the bathroom, she's taking these sheets of paper, these computations with her and looking at them.
And so, people like Harrison are wondering, "What the heck is with Katherine? She takes these long breaks. Where is she? I mean, we need everybody. It's all hands on deck. We're trying to get John Glenn into space. What's the deal here?" So Harrison is wondering what's happening. And there's a scene where Katherine is staying late, because she's a very dedicated team member. And the only one there is Harrison. He has this almost or this glassed paneled room that's set above the main circular office. So he can look down everybody from his office.
And, Katherine is talking with Harrison. And Harrison says that he's asking his team to look beyond the numbers, to look around them. He says, "We need to find answers to questions we don't have with math that doesn't exist." I mean, that's as hard... Yeah. So if ever you would need a genius to figure out new math, math that people haven't used maybe for centuries, you need, at the very least, a genius because it's so complicated. We see two themes that work. We see definitely discrimination, where the team, Paul Stafford, and the other folks there really don't want to give Katherine the time of day, because she's an African-American woman, and Paul Stafford just can't stand the fact you've got an African-American woman checking his work. He feels like it's so beneath him.
But on the other hand, you've got Harrison who has a clear job, he wants to get astronauts in space. And he is tough on everyone, regardless of race or gender. He's tough on everyone. And wants to make sure that work gets done. So in that sense, there is hope for Katherine, because she realizes Al Harrison is a simple person in one sense. He wants to get astronauts in space. And anybody that can help him, he will give them a shot. It's not like you have Al Harrison as some necessarily civil rights crusader.
Gary Schneeberger:
Correct.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's not really what animates him. What animates him is getting the job done. So, "If you can help me get the job done, I don't care what background you are, your age, ethnicity, just help me get the job done." It's that simple with him. And so, Katherine being a very smart person, she realizes there is room for hope. If she can justify and prove to him, "I have the solution to help get John Glenn and the other astronauts in space." I think she begins to realize Harrison might listen.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, I mean, I think what she sees in Harrison and I think what audiences see in Harrison is a fairness, right? There's a fairness about him. One of the secretary in the office speaking to an earlier comment you made about women in the workplace in 1961 were usually secretaries. There's a woman there who's a secretary, and one of the things she tells Katherine about Harrison is, "He's not going to warm up to you." And it's not even so much that he warms up to her, it's that he's a fair man. He wants to see fairness carried out. And I think that ends up helping both her and helping his pursuit of getting the job done, to your point.
As all this is happening, Warwick, the ladies become their own fellow travelers as they navigate their desire to do a good job and to do a job they're truly qualified for with the racial realities of early 1960s and the still segregated state of Virginia. There are a couple of scenes in this part of the film, Warwick, where we see the women at home, and when they all cut loose, and enjoyed an evening together as friends, not as NASA employees with challenges. Why is that such an important scene in the film and why is taking time to enjoy the company of fellow travelers and the camaraderie of fellow travelers so important to any of us who find ourselves in any crucible at any time?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a good question. Picture Katherine. Here she is. She's in this new work environment with a space task force. Most of the people there just do not want her there. Paul Stafford, the lead engineer, it drives him crazy to have an African-American woman check his work. She has to run way all over the other side of the campus to go to the bathroom through rain. Her day-to-day life at work is tough. It's challenging. She has to go through the indignity of getting coffee out of the so-called colored coffee maker. Her days are not easy. So she comes home and we see Katherine with her mom and her three daughters, her husband has died, and we see this really strong bond. Her kids and her mother, they love her, they admire her. They realize how exceptional it is to have an African-American woman working at NASA. It may be tough, but what she's doing already from their perspective is just amazing. They're incredibly proud of her and what she's achieved.
There's another scene around this time where one of the other women, Mary, she's talking to her husband and he has more of a confrontational civil rights approach to combat discrimination. And Mary understands his approach, and says, basically her approach is a bit different. It's not so much she's saying, "He shouldn't be doing what he's doing." But in her case, at NASA, she is trying to find a way to get ahead and she's thinking about applying for a job as an engineer. Remember, she was encouraged by her supervisor, Carl Zalinski, Polish Jew, who lost family members in the Holocaust. So she has a different approach. She wants to get ahead, but she wants to try and figure out a way to work around the system to become an engineer.
So at a party, we see these three women, they're enjoying themselves, they're dancing, there's great music. And, we see that Katherine sees Jim Johnson, who's an African-American military officer. Now earlier on, we see that they met at a church picnic, where Jim Johnson seemed surprised that a woman would be working at NASA. And, his surprise Katherine doesn't like. Katherine almost takes it as being dismissive. So later on at this party, Jim apologizes to Katherine and she doesn't let him off the hook quickly. It takes a few beats.
Gary Schneeberger:
Of course not.
Warwick Fairfax:
And, he apologizes to her for underestimating her. So really, what we see here is life is tough for these African-American women, but they get support from their families, their kids, in the case of Katherine, from her mom. And, what it shows is that through trials, it's critical to have people that love and support us, what we call, fellow travelers. Life is not easy and life is excruciatingly tough for these three women. And so, having fellow travelers is so helpful.
In that earlier scene at the picnic, right before we see this African-American pastor, he exhorts and encourages them from the pulpit. And he invokes Martin Luther King and he says, "God's faith has no limits." So here's Katherine and these other African-American women, they're getting encouragement from their loved ones, from their family, their kids, from their pastor, and all of this is so critical to help them combat what they have to live with day-to-day, which is rampant racism and just discrimination because they're women.
Gary Schneeberger:
And, if that name sounded familiar, Jim Johnson, remember we said, Katherine Goble Johnson in the beginning, I said that. We tell more about it. Well, they begin to get serious at this time. And if her last name becomes Johnson, you can see how serious that they get. But we're still not there yet. But, that is a little plant up ahead for you to follow. This is the moment in the film, folks, when the crucibles that women face begin to be displaced by their bounce back from those crucibles. Katherine earns more and more trust from Harrison for being the most accurate computer on his team and gets more and more opportunities to figure trajectories for upcoming flights as the Mercury 7 astronauts come to Langley. Mary makes the decision to apply to become an engineer and refuses to let new requirements for her application stall her dream.
Meanwhile, Dorothy begins to study the computer language Fortran, while NASA has just gotten huge IBM mainframes to do more quickly the calculations that will fuel space flights, all three ladies are seizing control of their careers, their futures, their lives of significance that they want to live. So this is a very pivotal part of the movie where things begin to turn away from being held down to being lifted up and they're lifting themselves up. Warwick, talk a bit about the story of how these women are bouncing back from their crucibles as this part of the movie kicks off.
Warwick Fairfax:
We see evidence of all three women fighting for their rights and finding a way to move forward in their careers despite just the incredible and rampant discrimination that they face. So one of the pivotal scenes of the movie is where Harrison is asking Katherine basically, "Where the heck do you go? I mean, you go for such long periods of time. It's all hands on deck. We are trying to get John Glenn in space. And, the whole Mercury Space Program. And, where do you go? Again, his motivation is pretty simple, "I want to get these folks in space. Everybody needs to be full on and with the program." And so, at that point, Katherine just explodes in frustration. She says she has to run half a mile to the other side of the campus to go to the bathroom. And Harrison, frankly, he just doesn't get it, because he's just focused on getting people in space. He's not really aware of other things. He's just not focusing on it.
And Harrison asked, "Well, why?" And Katherine says, "Because there's no colored bathroom in their building." She says, "Someone labeled a coffee maker as colored in that very room where they're having this conversation in that office." And, Harrison is just dumbstruck about this. He seems oblivious. He's like "What? There's a colored coffee maker and you've got to run all the way over to the other side of campus just to get to the bathroom?" And, Harrison is one of these people where he will not let anything get in his way. We can consider or muse about it saying, is it because he has innate sense of fairness? Maybe. Or maybe, it's also like, "I've got to get a job done. And, this stupid stuff is getting in my way. So I need to remove the obstacles that might make it tough to get John Glenn in space."
I mean, again, relatively straightforward mindset. But, whatever his motivation, he takes action. He takes the colored sign off the coffee maker. He then goes all the way to the other side of the campus and he gets a sledgehammer and he starts banging away at that colored sign on the restroom. I mean, this thing is not coming down easily. It's bolted on. It's a metal sign. And he's hammering away at it. He gets a crowbar. I mean, he's not giving up until that sign is removed. Well, in this other building, you have all of the African-American women, they're standing probably dumbstruck themselves, watching this guy who's the senior guy on the campus, who basically runs the show at Langley it seems, with the sledgehammer and the crowbar, and he's yanking it off. And then, he says, "There are no more colored restrooms. There are no more white restrooms." He says, "You can go wherever you damn well please." And he says, "Here at NASA, we all pee the same color."
It's a dramatic scene. It's very blunt to the point. But Harrison, whatever his motives are, he is fighting for Katherine and for African-American women. It's just amazing. Now, with Mary, she wants to become an engineer. She has been encouraged by Carl Zelinsky. She needs to take extra coursework that is not offered to African-Americans. So you've got white schools and schools for African-Americans. To take the courses she needs that is required to become an engineer, it's only offered a school she can't go to. So she's not going to let that stop her. She wants to become an engineer at NASA. So she is brought before a judge, and she makes this impassioned speech that she wants to be the first African-American woman engineer at NASA. Now, Mary is not a trained lawyer, but you would think that she's Clarence Darrow, one of the best lawyers that ever existed.
Gary Schneeberger:
Indeed.
Warwick Fairfax:
She does her homework. She says to this white judge, "You were the first in your family to do a whole bunch of things." And he says, "You've done your homework." "So you know what it is to be the first. I want to be the first African-American woman engineer at NASA. And, I can't, because there aren't courses that I'm allowed to take." So the judge considers this. And he allows her to take night classes. So maybe not during the day, but at least somewhere. So Mary is overjoyed. And her husband, the one who's more of the civil rights activist that wants to take a more violent approach, he is deeply moved and deeply respects what Mary was able to accomplish. He is amazed.
And we see a later scene where she walks into her classroom at night and the other all male white classmates, and the professor is, again, dumbstruck. It's like, "What is she doing here?" But she has a piece of paper that says she's meant to be there. And, off she goes. So Dorothy, she sees this huge new IBM computer. And, she realizes that this computer has the potential to take her job and all the other African-American women that report to it. And, she tells her team, I mean, she has a very smart person, very direct, "We need to understand how to work with computers." Because she knows this computer could take away their jobs. And we see early scenes where these IBM techs can't figure out how to work their own computer. They can't get it to work. And they have to be the experts from IBM. And, Dorothy sneaks in there and she starts tinkering with it. And, the IBM techs begin to realize that she can get this thing to work where they can't.
Now, they're under a lot of pressure. Again, Harrison is on their backs saying, "You sold us this big IBM mainframe. We need this to do very tough computations. Get this thing working." He's not going to be patient at all with anybody. So we find that all three women, they're fighting the system and they're finding ways to succeed against this ramped discrimination. And they're beginning to find ways through, around, over their crucibles to have their visions become reality. Each in different ways, but it's just amazing how none of these three women are going to give up. They're going to find ways to become the people that they feel they were led to become and fulfill their purpose.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It's that these moments when we're talking about these things in a series on film that are really important, I think, to be on the crucible, and that is when we can step off the screen for a second and apply it to the folks who are listening and watching. And, I'm going to ask you this, why are moments like this, moments where we choose to find a way around obstacles like the ladies have done to achieve a vision that will help us bounce forward to a life of significance that fits our skills and values so critical to all of us, to any of us who find ourselves in crucibles? We do these movie series because they teach us things about how to manage our own crucible experiences. And what you've just described, moving around obstacles is critical to doing that, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, well said. We all face challenges. Obviously, not all of us are African-American women. And, we don't live in the 1960s anymore, although there's still obviously racism and gender discrimination. The level they were at was certainly very high in the 1960s. So they obviously believed that gender and racial discrimination was wrong. But, what were they going to do about it? Well, they found ways to move forward with their lives and careers in their own unique ways.
So I think what this tells us is when we feel that we've been treated unfairly, that we can't achieve our dreams, maybe we didn't go to college, maybe it seems like we have a bad boss, or a company just won't give us a shot, they won't really give us a chance. We can yell and scream and say, "This is unfair." If Ernie had gone to college, or if Ernie had had an upbringing that had more advantages, or wasn't abused as a kid, or whatever background you've had that may have really make you feel that the world is stacked against you, you can yell and scream and say it's unfair and it may well have been incredibly unfair, where you can yell and scream about it. Or you can say, "Well, what am I going to do about it? How do I find a way around these obstacles? How do I find a way to achieve my dreams? Who can help me? How do I get around these barriers?"
I think what this movie tells us is, you can't get much bigger barriers in early-60s racial and gender discrimination that these women face. That's about as big a barrier as any human's going to face. But yet, they found a way.
Gary Schneeberger:
So a critical turning point in the film is a critical turning point in the space race. The Soviets have sent the cosmonaut, Yuri Grigarin, into space. The U.S. wants to send John Glenn, not just into space, but to orbit the earth to achieve supremacy in the space race. There's one problem though. The computers, again human computers, know how to get Glenn's rocket up, but they haven't quite figured out how to get it back down. That's when Katherine in a meeting with all the top brass that she's had to fight to get into is asked by Harrison to work out the coordinates right there in real-time in front of everybody, including John Glenn. Here's that very intense and inspirational scene from Hidden Figures.
Speaker 1:
So we have the vehicle's speed, the launch window, and for argument's sake, the landing zone is The Bahamas. Should be enough to figure the go/no-go?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, in theory, sir.
Speaker 1:
We need to be past theory at this point.
Speaker 3:
We'll be able to calculate a go/no-go with that information.
Speaker 1:
When exactly is that going to happen?
Speaker 3:
Katherine? Have a go at it.
Speaker 4:
The goal point for re-entry is 2,990 miles from where we want Colonel Glenn to land. If we assume that's The Bahamas, 544 miles per hour of 46.56 degrees, 2,900 landing miles. Okay. So that puts your landing zone at 5.0667 degrees north, 77.3333 degrees west, which is here. Give or take 20 square miles.
Speaker 1:
I like your numbers.
Gary Schneeberger:
So Warwick, what's the context behind that clip? Some things were happening that got us into that room. What's the context behind that clip and why is it so important to this story told by this movie?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, so this is a very intense scene. And, before the clip starts, Katherine was not going to be allowed in this meeting with the Pentagon brass. Paul Stafford certainly didn't think she should be there, an African-American woman. She wasn't qualified. Maybe she thought she didn't have the security clearance. And, Katherine pushed back in front of Harrison saying that she needed to be in that room, because what kept happening is changes kept happening in real-time. And by the time she finished her computations, Harrison would say, "I'm sorry, no offense to you. But, this is old data. Therefore, the work you've done is irrelevant." And, that's frustrating. Well, she needed to be in the room, so that in real-time she could make recommendations for calculations that basically all this is about getting John Glenn safely back from orbit, back to earth through Earth's atmosphere. I mean, very challenging computations.
So Harrison being a practical guy, he wants to get the mission done, he wants to get Glenn up in space and then home. It's like, "Okay, fine." And so, Harrison brings Katherine in the room. And as you see in that clip, look at the faces of those men. They're like, "Who is this African-American woman? What is she doing there?" Now, earlier on, Harrison says, "Okay, you can come in the room, but don't say anything." He says, "Don't say anything." As we see in that clip, Harrison gives the chalk to Katherine and she starts coming up with all these calculations, and just look at the faces on those men. They're just dumbstruck. Clearly, she's a genius. She figures it all out. As you know, I think, from this clip, the wrong calculation means that the capsule would burn up, or it would bounce off Earth's atmosphere, both are problematic obviously. So it's really difficult to get the right trajectory.
And so, not only does she figure that out, she figures out the landing point within 20 square miles. I mean, that is just stunning. That is genius level. She does it in minutes. So I think what this scene shows is that an African-American woman can be smarter than anyone on the planet. This demonstrated to that whole room, her brilliance, and that brilliance was undeniable. Math doesn't lie. You can't fake it or fudge it. They're all smart enough to realize she knows her stuff and she can figure things out that nobody we know can figure out. And it has to be figured out for John Glenn to be able to come back to us safely. It's a remarkable scene.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, for sure. Meanwhile, as this is going on, things are looking up also for Dorothy and Mary. Mary, as we've mentioned, wins her legal challenge and can attend a white school to earn the extra credit she needs to be considered for the engineer's job. And Dorothy is told by the same supervisor that didn't want to let her become a supervisor, that she has been reassigned to work in the IBM section of NASA and she can bring along all of her fellow computers, all the women that she works with, with her. Later on, she is promoted indeed to being supervisor of that entire group.
Warwick, there's an interesting scene where there's a question about whether the calculations are right for John Glenn to come out of orbit and back to earth. Everybody's unsure, are they right, are they wrong? Glenn has a point of view though, about how this should be resolved. Talk about this scene a little bit, because it may be surprising to people who... If you just think of it on its face, "Hey, there's this computer, this big IBM thing. And then, there's a bunch of people who figure stuff out with their brains." John Glenn has a point of view. What's John Glenn's point of view? What's that scene like?
Warwick Fairfax:
So clearly, Katherine has won the respect of the people in that room. So by this time, Katherine is certainly respected by Al Harrison. And John Glenn, who's being a part of some of these meetings clearly respects her expertise. So really early on in the movie, when John Glenn first comes on the picture, you can see him greeting a whole bunch of people. And he goes down the line shaking hands, including these three African-American women. John Glenn is somebody that treats everybody the same. So he certainly doesn't appear to be prejudiced at all. He just goes out of his way to be nice to them, before he even knows who they were and what they did. So there's a question about the right trajectory to bring Glenn home. Again, the wrong trajectory, you bounce off the Earth's atmosphere, or the capsule burns up. And the IBM calculations seem to vary from day-to-day. So that makes everybody nervous, especially John Glenn who's in space and his life is on the line. He is especially nervous.
And so, Glenn says to Harrison, he wants Katherine to check the numbers. He trusts Katherine. And Glenn tells Harrison in a blunt way, and that's Harrison's language. He wants to be able to look in the eyes of the person who's done the calculations, not some computer, so to speak. And so, really, this scene is a pivotal, because what it says about John Glenn is he is willing to trust Katherine with his life, that's what at stake here, wrong calculation, and he dies. So that is the ultimate compliment, "I respect you so much, I'm willing to put my life in your hands." It's really remarkable.
Gary Schneeberger:
Katherine's calculations proved perfect in getting John Glenn back home, even after a scare in space where the module's heat shield almost fails, threatening to burn him up on reentry to the Earth's atmosphere. The film ends with the United States leading the space race, just a few years away from putting a man on the moon, one of the most miraculous achievements, not just in American history, but in all of human history. And Katherine, Mary, and Dorothy play key parts in making all of this happen. They become NASA legends, celebrated figures, not hidden figures.
As we begin to wrap up here, talk a little bit about, yeah, they're legends. How are they legends? We learned a little bit about how they became legendary at the end of the movie when it closes. And, how does their journey give us hope and inspiration to move beyond our own crucibles, especially in the face of challenging circumstances?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, we see in the closing credits that Mary goes on to become NASA's first female black engineer. And in 1979, she becomes Langley's women's program manager, where she fought to advance women of all colors. We see Dorothy becomes NASA's first black supervisor. And in computing with Fortran, the computer language on IBM, she was considered one of the most brilliant minds at NASA. We see actually a neat scene right I think before the credits roll where you can actually see Katherine and Paul Stafford working together.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Paul Stafford actually brings her some coffee.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yes, yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
Now, that's about as high praise as you're ever going to get from Paul Stafford, who's really felt very threatened. So finally, clearly, he respects her. Winning over Paul Stafford almost feel like [inaudible 00:54:28]. So Katherine went on to perform calculations for Apollo 11, which was the mission to the moon and the space shuttle after that. In fact, in 2016, NASA dedicated the Katherine Johnson Computational Building in her honor. Remember, as Gary mentioned, Katherine Goble becomes Katherine Johnson after she marries Jim Johnson. And at age 97, Katherine Johnson was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom and celebrated her 56th anniversary with Jim Johnson. My understanding is the Presidential Medal of Freedom is the highest of it in honor that a U.S. person can get. So it's truly remarkable the journey of these three women and the successful careers they had.
And so, looking more broadly, we can learn a lot from these three African-American women who faced both racial and gender discrimination. The fact that they've become leading figures in NASA's history is absolutely remarkable. How they would achieve that in their careers at the time in the early-60s is really unthinkable. But they found a way. And it's a testament to their resilience and their belief in their skills and abilities. All three would make significant contributions to NASA. And this at a time in the early-60s for African-American women would be thought of as absolutely impossible.
And I'm reminded of what that lead engineer, Carl Zelinsky, said to Mary when she was thinking of applying to be an engineer. He said about living in a space age, and he applied it to her situation, "We are living the impossible." That's what these three African-American women did. They lived the impossible. It's easy to look back and say, "Well, that's great." But it's hard to underestimate how difficult it was and how rapid the gender and racial discrimination was in the early-60s. These three African-American women, they did not let obstacles or challenges get in their way. They found a way to achieve their dream despite these obstacles. So when we're faced with overwhelming challenges and obstacles, let us remember the courage and the perseverance these three women had. They never gave up. Their example can be an inspiration to us all.
Gary Schneeberger:
With that, let's turn on the lights, the movie's over. It's time for us to pick up our popcorn boxes and head out. Truly, that was an excellent discussion, again, of an excellent movie. But also, excellent points that we can all grasp onto as we go through our crucible experiences. And that folks is why we do this summer series on movies. We've done three of them in the last few years.
So next week, we will take a look at another movie with some crucible stories in it, some big crucibles in it, and that... Scott, are you there? Are you in the control booth? If you're ready, give me a drum roll before I can tell everybody what it is we're going to be talking about next week, what movie we're going to explore. Here it is. Give me the drum roll. Thank you very much. That movie is Rudy. An excellent movie, very inspirational. We'll be talking about that next week. But until we get around until next week, remember, we know your crucibles experiences are hard. They can take the wind out of your sails. But here's the good news. Like the Ladies in Hidden Figures learned, when you learn the lessons of your crucibles, when you have the resilience to move through the challenges of your crucibles, and apply those lessons, you can end up charting a course with to the greatest place you could ever want to get to, and that is to a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Big Screen, Big Crucibles I: Unbroken
We kick off our eight-part summer series — BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES — this week with a look at the remarkable life of Louie Zamperini, whose true story of overcoming several devastating crucibles is told in the film UNBROKEN.
The movie depicts him as an Olympic athlete, an air force bombardier adrift in a life boat for 47 days during World War II and a prisoner of war brutalized by his captors in Japanese prisoner of war camps.
How does he survive? By living out the advice his brother game him when they were both boys: if you can take it, you can make it.
Dive deeper into your personal narratives with our BIG SCREEN, BIG CRUCIBLES guided journal, meticulously crafted to enhance your experience with our podcast series exploring cinema’s most transformative crucible stories. This journal serves as a dedicated space for introspection, inviting you to connect the profound journeys of on-screen characters with the pivotal moments that have shaped your own life.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Louie was free during those times of being in a prisoner-of-war camp. During that time in the Raft, he did not let his circumstances define him that may have imprisoned his body, but his soul could never be chained.
Gary Schneeberger:
We kick off our eight-part summer series, Big Screen, Big Crucibles, this week with a look at the Louie that Warwick just mentioned, Louie Zamperini. The movie that documents his incredible story of resilience and courage is Unbroken. In it, we see him as an Olympic athlete, an Air Force bombardier adrift in a lifeboat 47 days during World War II and a prisoner of war brutalized by his captors in Japanese POW camps. How does he survive? By living out the advice he first received from his brother when they both were boys, "If you can take it, you can make it."
Well, folks, we are back doing something that we love. This is the first episode of our eight-part summer series, which we're calling Big Screen, Big Crucibles. If that sounds familiar, it's because this is the third time Warwick and I have talked about movies as a jumping-off point to discuss the crucibles that we all face. So for the next eight weeks, we'll be taking a look at films that feature a wide variety of crucibles, insightful lessons that they can teach us about not only bouncing back from those crucibles, but on casting a vision for a life of significance.
And our first film, we're both excited about. You should have been there. We should film sometimes the prep sessions, Warwick, because they're very... I mean, there's a lot of stuff that goes on in there when we prepare for this. And Unbroken, if the episode is half as interesting as the prep session was, it's going to be really, really, really good. The movie came out in 2014, and what I'll do with every episode that we do of this series is I'll just read What in Hollywood is called the logline. That's a short synopsis of the movie. So here's the short synopsis folks of Unbroken.
As a boy, Louis "Louie" Zamperini is always in trouble. But with the help of his older brother, he turns his life around and channels his energy into running, later qualifying for the 1936 Olympics. When World War II breaks out, Louie enlists in the military. After his plane crashes in the Pacific, he survives an incredible 47 days adrift in a raft until he's captured the Japanese Navy. Sent to a POW camp, Louie becomes the favorite target of a particularly cruel prison commander. He ensures the unimaginable and yet, finds it in his spirit to, years later, forgive his tormentor. He goes on to become a Christian and start a ministry helping people through life's most challenging circumstances.
Wow, Warwick. That sounds like a good choice for the first episode of our series, so let me ask you this question before we dive into these crucibles of Louis, and how he overcame them, and what his actions can teach us about our own crucibles. Why movies? Again, this is the third time we've gone into the cinema for our summer series. What are you hoping our listeners and viewers get from our discussions here?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Gary, we both love movies, and we've enjoyed looking at movies over the last couple years or so of Beyond the Crucible. And movies typically portray a protagonist who's facing immense and significant challenges which they seek to overcome. So we've covered movie heroes, sports heroes, historical heroes, and last year, we had a really fun time looking at movies from the American Film Institute's top 100 movies. Really, truly great movies that we covered.
This year, we thought we'd look at movies that were focused on crucibles, where we had people who overcame significant crucibles to bounce back and lead a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So we've had a lot of great movies that we've looked at this year. It was purely from the lens of what do we think are some of the greatest movies that show immense crucibles that people found a way to overcome.
Gary Schneeberger:
And what's interesting about this, folks, is we're doing eight movies in all, and in a previous life... This is just an interesting factoid, and it may come out in some of the discussions. In a previous life, I was a publicist in Hollywood for films, and three of the eight movies, including this one, I worked on when I was publicizing films in Hollywood. So I may have some inside information, if you will, about some of the things that... certainly, from Unbroken, but from some of the other movies that we're going to cover as well.
Warwick Fairfax:
And just to show you folks that Gary is really... and together, we're trying to pick some of the best crucible movies. Originally, in the list we were chatting about, that wasn't on Gary's list, Unbroken. As soon as I mentioned it, it's like, "Oh, wait, hang on. I worked on that movie. Of course, we should have it."
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
So it's not like Gary is deliberately trying to put every movie that he has worked on. It just so happens.
Gary Schneeberger:
Thank you for that disclaimer. That is true, and it also shows that I... It's funny. In watching the movie... I'll say this before we begin the discussion about what we saw in the movie. In watching the movie, there were scenes I forgot. I mean, I saw this movie like eight times before it came out and in various stages of being done, and I forgot some key scenes in there. So it was, really, eye-opening for me as well, even though I was involved in this in 2014 when it came out.
So, Warwick, let's go at this, and it's going to... not be long, I don't think, but let's go at this in the order of Louie's crucibles because I think that's the best way to understand what he went through and his sheer will to survive. While in the Pacific, on a rescue mission, the plane he and his fellow airmen are on crashes. After the crash, Louie and his two fellow airmen are adrift on a tiny raft in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. No food, no water, burning sun, and oh, if that's not enough, shark-infested waters. They end up stranded for 47 days. That's over six weeks. An ordeal few of us can even imagine.
The film shows their desperate creativity, catching rainwater and makeshift containers, snaring a fish or a bird with their bare hands, fending off sharks. At one point, a Japanese plane... Remember, this is in World War II, so the US is fighting Japan. A Japanese plane comes by and strafes them while they're in... They have to dive into the... out of the life raft and dive into the ocean where those sharks are. But through it all, Louie Zamperini refuses to give up hope.
Warwick, this segment here about them being adrift at sea is about surviving long periods of hardship and deprivation. Think of that raft as a metaphor for any extended trial in life, any crucible someone has been through. Let's unpack how Louie survived the unsurvivable. So I'll let you lay out some of this stuff. And again, folks, there's a lot of stuff here because it's truly a remarkable story.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So well said, Gary. One of the things I just thought of, even before Louie really takes charge and comes up with a plan, what's interesting is he accepts the situation that he's in, because when you watch the movie, what's interesting is that Louie and his crew in this US bomber in the Pacific Theater that just come back from this harrowing bombing mission, they get strafed, and I think at least one person dies on the plane, and its-
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
... it's dire circumstances. Somehow they get back to this airfield on this little island somewhere in the Pacific. They make it back, and then they're told, "Hey, there's somebody out in the Pacific who needs rescuing. So we've got this other aircraft because your one is too beaten up. Why don't you take this other aircraft?" And obviously, in World War II, there are a lot of beat-up aircraft, and sometimes you take a part from here, a part from there, and patch it up, and hope for the best.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so what's crazy is this plane crashes, but it's not because of enemy fire. I don't think that one bullet hits them.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, they're just cruising along. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's because it's put together with, feeling like, chewing gum and Band-Aids. I mean, metaphorically speaking, because look, they're doing the best they can. It's pretty tough. So this thing loses engine after engine, and so Louie could say, "Are you kidding me? God or whoever's up there, I survived one mission when we're shot up, and now we're crashing, and the enemy is not even attacking us. What's up with this? This is not fair. Come on." You know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Cut the mechanics. Put a plane together properly. I mean, he could have been unreasonable and go off on that, but you never see that. So, anyway. So the first point to make about Louie in this is he's not complaining about the situation and saying, "You kidding me? Who crashes because a plane is not even shot down?" But from the beginning, Louie takes charge, he encourages his buddies, he comes up with a plant to survive. So he says, basically, "Okay. We've got a couple of chocolate bars and ration. We're going to have to ration them to two squares of chocolate a day per person. We've got these seemingly minute little cans of water with a little screw top on. Okay. Let's say two, maybe three sips of water per day per person."
And they seem to agree to this, but out of the two people on that raft, Mac, and there's another guy, Phil, who's one of the pilots, Mac doesn't really seem to be with the program. Louie is saying, "Okay. You good, right? We've got a ration." And Mac is not nodding his head. He's just looking at him. So, later on, we find a bit later that Mac has eaten all the chocolate bars. This isn't day 46-
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, and this is only a couple of days.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. I was going to say. This isn't day 46. This is like day one or two.
Gary Schneeberger:
Exactly.
Warwick Fairfax:
You know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it's like... Obviously, Louie is absolutely furious and livid because who knows how long they're going to be out there, but he handles this challenge well, finds a way to move on, and by definition, must have forgiven Mac because you don't see him retaliate against Mac at all for the rest of the 47 days. He is not saying, "Well, the reason we're starving is because of you." Not once in the movie does it come up. He's moved on. "Okay, that was yesterday. If we're going to deal with today, we can't be worried about yesterday." So, so many lessons in terms of how Louie finds a way to just survive, but just galvanize these two other people on that raft.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's the first real glimpse that we have into the character. Speaking of a word that we've talked about as part of our series within the show on the actionable truths of Beyond the Crucible, he shows himself to be a man of character in that moment, and we don't really know anything about him except that. But right after that scene happens, we learn a little bit more about him. There's a reason that Louie is able to be resilient. There's a reason that he's able to look the other way when someone does something wrong. He's learned some things in his life, and we get to get a glimpse of that because the movie tells some things in flashback. Right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting what happens as the plane is crashing in this crash. We go into a flashback, and Louie is a young kid. He's in church, and there's a pastor talking about the fact that God created day and night, and we have to live through the night. In other words, we have to... "There will be good times and bad times," I think is the metaphor he's trying to get at, and we have to find a way to live through the bad times through the challenges. And the past also says that God sent his son Jesus to forgive our sins, and so there's also an, obviously, implicit message that we need to learn forgiveness too. So some powerful lessons. Learn to deal with the challenges, learn to deal with the night, and learn to deal with forgiveness.
Gary Schneeberger:
And Louie at that time, he's a boy. He's a young boy.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
Maybe preteen-ish.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he's not, by any stretch of the imagination, a Christian kid. He's fidgeting in church. His dad is looking at him crossly.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
I mean, this isn't something that Louie is hearing that, really, is soaking into his soul per se. He's just hearing it. It doesn't go in one ear and out the other, but I don't know that it gets stuck in his heart, but he does remember it as time goes on.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, yeah. No. It's seeds that will come to life later on. But yes, it's not really changing his life too much at the moment. But we also see from the very beginning that he has challenges. He is from an Italian-American family. His parents, certainly his mother doesn't seem to speak much of any English. And Louie is bullied by the other kids because he's Italian. They call him names, and it's very sad. Often, with immigrant groups, depending on the era, whether it's US or other countries, some are accepted readily and some are not. And certainly, in terms of the Americans back then, we're talking probably early '30s, I would guess. Maybe late '20s. I don't really know exactly what year it is, but that was the case.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so one of the things we see is clearly, his mother has a very strong faith because you see her in the house praying for Louie, because Louie does tend to act up and gets bullied, and so certainly, Louie needed to find a way to get beyond bullying and not let that define him. And we'll see later that there is no evidence of that holding him back, but yeah, he had challenges from a very early age.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and really, a key figure in his life that helps him move past those challenges, confront those challenges, not be... Well, the movie is called Unbroken, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Gary Schneeberger:
Not be Broken by those challenges is his brother Pete, and Pete is his older brother. Pete is a good older brother. He encourages Louie to try out for the track team at school. Louie is not sure. He doesn't think that track team is going to accept people like him, "people like him," Italians, but his brother says a very important thing that I know you're going to talk more about. I'm just going to toss it out here.
His brother tells him, "If you can take it, you can make it," about being on the track team. Lots of other applications to that. And he begins to train his brother riding his bike while Louie is running. And Louie says he feels he is nothing but his brother believes in him, right? That all important person that believes that regardless of what other people say about us that may be negative, his brother is on Team Louie.
And we also see in another flashback, Warwick, Louie in the 1936 Berlin Olympics. Folks, you may remember these Olympics as the Jesse Owens Olympics. He was the African-American who won, I think, four different events there. Very historically significant. And Louie, he finishes eight in the 5,000-meter race, but his performance was notable for a very interesting point. The final lap of that race, he fell behind, and he sped up. He could take it, so he made it, right? He finishes that race, and he finishes that last lap in only 56 seconds, which was a record, right? It was a record in the US at that time, the last lap of that race. That's all pretty remarkable stuff, Warwick. Talk about how some of these impacts your understanding of Louie Zamperini and your understanding of how Louie is a model for us in overcoming Crucibles.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. What's interesting about Louie being in the 1936 Berlin Olympics is he was still in high school at the time.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And for him to even be in the running, so to speak, to do somewhat well is remarkable. For him to have one of the fastest final lapse against grown men when he's a teenager is remarkable. And we really see this journey from him talking to his older brother, Pete, saying, "Hey, they don't want people like me on the track team. The other kids won't accept me." And Pete really just encourages him to say, as you rightly say, "If you can take it, you can make it." That will almost be a life motto for him in which he uses it throughout his life. And certainly, at an early age when he's in high school, he tried out for the team, and he did phenomenally well. He was at Torrance High School in California, and they used to call him the Torrance Tornado. You know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Okay.
Warwick Fairfax:
He was that quick. Who is this kid? So that was incredible. And to do as well as he did in the Olympics in Berlin in 1936 is incredible. And right after that or at least around that time, his brother, Pete, again, such a great mentor. Not all older brothers are great mentors, but Pete really is. He says to Louie, "A moment of pain is worth a lifetime of glory." Really, pain is something that you can fuel to really make yourself better. So he's been mentored, he's gone through some tough challenges, being bullied, showing that he can be incredibly fast on the track, his brother coaching him, helping him to get to the next level. He is really modeling resilience, and a lot of this is, really, tools that he's building that is going to help him when he desperately needs it later on in life, both in the raft and then later on in World War II. So these incredibly important life lessons that Louie Zamperini is learning.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and Pete Zamperini. Come on. Pete Zamperini was a Beyond the Crucible visionary before Beyond the Crucible existed, right? I mean, "If you can take it, you can make it." That's straight out of the advice that you give and, "One moment of pain is worth a lifetime of glory." Again, right out of the things that we do. I, actually, when I worked on this movie, met Louie's son, Luke Zamperini. I'll have to reach out to Luke and tell him some of this stuff that... "Hey, there's this podcast that your dad would've loved."
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, and one of the things we talk about all the time on Beyond the Crucible is the importance of fellow travelers.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
It'd be interesting to ask yourself, "What would Louie Zamperini be like if he didn't have a Pete, he didn't have an older brother?" I don't know that he ever would've raced. He would've said, "They don't like people like me. They won't let people like me on the team." He would never have been in the Olympics. The whole idea of "If you can take it, you can make it." I mean, who knows what his life would've been like, but Pete was a huge part of why Louie Zamperini became the man he became. So a lot of credit goes to Pete. Certainly.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. So let's go back to the raft. Louie and his two fellow servicemen drift day after day under the brutal sun, as we said. At one point, Mac, the companion who just couldn't control himself and ate all the chocolate bars, he passes away, and they give him a very sweet burial at sea. And in those 47 days, in addition to seeing his friend die, Louie faces starvation, thirst, fear, all the things that you can imagine. And the movie does a really good job of showing just how that affects him and how he fights against it.
If we translate what Louie went through, Warwick, into everyday crucibles, like a long illness, for instance, or unemployment, or any prolonged struggle, what practical strategies can people draw from Louie's experience? Right? That's what we're about here, right? These movies, we talk about them because you can learn things about overcoming your crucibles from what we see in these movies. For example, what mindset or routine might help someone get through for one more day of a personal ordeal?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I think Louie Zamperini teaches us two huge things. You have to have hope, and you have to have a plan. Each day, Louie had hope despite the fact that as far as they knew, the record for surviving on a raft was 21 days. This would end up being 47. Can you imagine that day 24, 29, 35? It's like... How can you have hope at that point? I think most people, many would certainly say, "There is no hope. We're beyond 21. We're going to die. It's just a question of, is it going to be today or tomorrow? It won't be two days from now. It'll be today or tomorrow."
You could have that mindset, but that wasn't Louie Zamperini. Not only did he maintain hope, he had a plan. It was very creative, as I mentioned, at the very beginning, "Hey, let's just have two squares of chocolate a day, two sips of water." Obviously, that plan didn't work out when the other guy, Mac, ate the whole chocolate once, but you've got to readjust your plans, but he had a plan, and then they had to get pretty creative in terms of how to eat and drink. They, as you said, captured rainwater with sacks and their water bottles. They caught a seagull, which, I suppose, they can try.
Gary Schneeberger:
Which was not tasty. Seagull was not tasty.
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's just say what they ate didn't stay there, you know?
Gary Schneeberger:
There you go. There you go.
Warwick Fairfax:
So they ate fish. They even ate a shark. They managed to corral the shark, and it was pretty impressive. And obviously, they're not used to eating raw fish, certainly raw shark, but they found a way. They never gave up hope. And one of the other interesting things is that the other airman on the raft or one of the others was a pilot named Phil. Now, he was a person of very strong faith, and there's some interesting moments, almost humorous. And so as you do when you're facing a mortality and thinking, "We may not survive." I mean, whether you say it or not, you're just wondering. You know it's a possibility at this point. So Louie asked Phil if God has a grand plan. That's a very big cosmic question to ask, "What's God's grand plan?"
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, he's not really a person of faith, but he's also-
Gary Schneeberger:
Especially in the midst of war, right? I mean, that's an-
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's an incredibly big question in the midst of war.
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed. So Phil says, "You do the best you can and have fun. And when you die, the angel says, 'You can ask all the dumb questions now.'" Not something that I have typically heard in church, you know?
Gary Schneeberger:
No, no.
Warwick Fairfax:
"When you die, now is the time to ask all those dumb questions." I don't know how good the theology was, but it's pretty humorous, I got to say. So then, Louie makes this almost pact with God, and he says to God that if God rescues him, he'll give his whole life to God and will do anything he wants. And so we'll find out life and faith wasn't exactly very linear for Louie Zamperini, but at least that's somewhat of an indication that Louie is at least trying to make a turn. He's trying to have faith and God be a bit more important in his life. But yeah, I guess in summary, you got to have hope, you got to have a plan, and Louie is not quite there yet, but having some kind of faith that fuels the hope is certainly helpful.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, for sure, as we talk about here all the time. So surviving by day, day by day, and holding onto hope, Louis showed us that even in a tiny raft in a big ocean, the human spirit can endure more than we think. Huge message of this movie, but surviving the ocean was just the beginning, if you can believe it, folks. That's not even the halfway point of the movie, really, Surviving the ocean.
After those 47 days, Louie's crucible only deepened. He was rescued by the enemy, which, news flash, isn't really being rescued. I mean, it's being rescued from your immediate peril, floating amongst sharks in the ocean, but you're rescued by the enemy, and they're a vicious enemy. After those 47 days, he's faced now with a very different kind of trial. Louie survives the unspeakable at sea, only to land in an even harsher set of circumstances, two years in Japanese prison camps.
In Unbroken, we see how Louie and other POWs survive beatings, starvation, and humiliation daily. One guard in particular, Mutsuhiro Watanabe, nicknamed The Bird by the prisoners, singles out Louie. He cannot stand that Louie is an Olympic athlete and a war hero, and he doesn't like the fact that try as he might, he can't break Louie's spirit. Warwick, Louie's treatment in the POW camp was beyond horrific. Watanabe tried everything to crush him. What struck you about Louie's mental and emotional strength during this avalanche of mistreatment that he experienced?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. From the moment that Louie is captured, he's first taken to some remote island, he's put in this hole, he's beaten, tortured. There's just glimmers of light coming out. At one point, he's taken out and beaten by the soldiers and interrogated. At one point, he and this other airman, Phil, they look like they're being brought out to be executed. They're forced to kneel and then undress naked. And Louie, at first, resists to kneeling, and they beat him down till he kneels, and they're assuming this is going to be it. But then, it turns out it's not it, and they're taken to Tokyo in Japan on a ship. So here they are traveling in a truck through Tokyo. At this point, I think they're separated, Louie and Phil.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And the truck that Louie is in is going through Tokyo, and Louie says that he had hoped to race in the 1940 Olympics in Tokyo because that's when that was slated. And one of the challenges, if not tragedies, is Louie never gets to race in another Olympics because the 1940 and 1944 Olympics were canceled because of World War II. So he's having this wistful moment. He's like, "Huh, this is Tokyo. I was hoping to race here in 1940, and it didn't happen."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And he might've had a much better shot being four years older. So now he's in this prisoner-of-war camp, and as you mentioned, the guy seemingly in charge, at least over this group was Corporal Watanabe. Watanabe says to the prisoners that they're enemies of Japan and they will be treated accordingly. Those are very ominous words, "You will be treated accordingly."
Now, we learn that Watanabe grew up in a wealthy family and wanted to be an officer, but he didn't make it. I think one of the senior prisoners of war spoke some Japanese, and so he was able to figure out some of this from the guards and chatter. And so clearly, it seemed like Watanabe had a chip on his shoulder, and he was going to take out this chip that he had of feeling like he's not achieving maybe what his family expected of him, that he was going to take it out on the prisoners and especially Louie Zamperini.
At one point, Louie says he's going to kill Watanabe. He's had it, and the senior US officer at the camp says, "The way you win is by surviving the war." And at that point, Louie recalls the words of his brother, "If he can take it, he can make it." And so he was going to have to take a lot of brutality and beatings from Watanabe, and he did take it.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's interesting, Warwick. When they first meet, when Watanabe first confronts Louie in the camp, he gets right in his face, and he tells him, "Look at me." Right? He tells him, he commands him to look at him, and Louie won't do it, can't do it, doesn't want to do it. And that exchange will play out as this movie carries on, this idea that Watanabe wants to break him down by having him stare into his eyes and force his will on him through eye contact and through intimidation. That will play out, folks. Put a pin in this one. We'll come back to it in a few minutes because you'll see how that all plays out, but that was a... to your point, shows how he singled Louie out from the beginning.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So well said. And at one point, amidst all this torture and deprivation, Louie, obviously, is somewhat well-known being an Olympic athlete. He's taken to this Japanese radio station. It looks all very swank with a... very well-furnished place, beautiful architecture, and all. And he's being asked to tell the world that he's okay and that... just to give some words to his family, so he's willing to do that, "Hey, I'm okay," and express love to his brother and family.
And he's eating at a beautiful cafeteria. Some of the folks at the Japanese radio station, they come up to him, and they basically say, in not so many words, "We want you to lie on radio. Just spout forth what we want you to say." And there were some things like that. I think, from memory, there was a woman by the name of Tokyo Rose who would... I don't know if she was American, but certainly had an American accent, would really try to, through propaganda, just beat down the Americans and allies in the Pacific Theater in World War II, and there was a German equivalent in the European Theater. So they probably wanted him to be this kind of figure, an Olympic athlete spouting propaganda for Japan.
I mean, that's a great PR move if you are Japan in the midst of World War II. Well, obviously, Louie Zamperini wouldn't have any of it, even though he realized he would have good food and good conditions. So he went back to the prisoner-of-war camp, and Watanabe just continues. He wants to teach Louie respect, and so in one scene, he has each prisoner being forced to punch Louie in the face, and Louie just yells at him saying, "Do it. Do it," because they realize if they don't do it, then there will be... all the rest of the prisoners will be tortured and mistreated even more. So he's willing to take one for every prisoner in the camp.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, and that, right, brings back his brother's counsel, "If you can take it..." Right? He's willing to take one. You just said it. "If you can take it, you can make it." And he lives through that as each man walks up and socks him in the face.
Warwick Fairfax:
It almost sounds biblical, One man taking all this pain for the sake of others, ironically.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
I don't know that he was probably thinking that, but it does make you think that. So then, later on, we see that Louie is taken by train through snow-covered mountains to another camp. And just when you think like, "Hey, at least I've got out of this camp," lo and behold, we found Watanabe, who's been promoted from a corporal to a sergeant, is at that camp and seemingly in charge of them. And at this camp, what they're doing is this back-breaking work of lifting these heavy baskets full of coal onto these barges, one after another. I mean, they're just covered in soot and coal dust. I mean, it's torture of a different kind. It's back-breaking work of hauling coal into the barges.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and there is a pivotal scene that comes after this, Warwick. It's one of the most moving ones in the entire film, but one of the most inspiring ones in the entire film. So let's take a look at that scene and listen to that scene right now.
Audio:
If he drops it, shoot him.
[foreign langauge 00:37:03].
Louie.
Come on, boy.
Come on, Louie.
Don't look at me. Don't look at me. Myrna. Myrna. Myrna.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, Warwick, you've seen that scene more than once over the years. What's your reaction to it in the context of what we're talking about here for the podcast?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, this is such a powerful scene. There's been this battle, this war of wills between Watanabe and Louie Zamperini, and Watanabe is attempting to break Louie. As we see in that clip, he says, "You keep holding up that heavy beam, and if you drop it," he tells the soldiers, "shoot him." I mean, it's pretty clear he is hoping that Louie just can't take it, gives up, drops the beam, and that... I guess Watanabe is hoping the soldiers will actually do what he tells him to and shoot him. He wants to win. This is the final moment of victory. He feels like the victory is within his grasp. I mean, surely-
Gary Schneeberger:
Particularly, Warwick-
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
Particularly, that the war is slipping away from Japan too.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, yeah.
Gary Schneeberger:
So we've got to believe he's really thinking, "This is my chance to win something big out of this."
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, absolutely. Here's Louie Zamperini. He's been tortured and beaten, and he's just been worn down by just hauling these baskets of coal. He finally just drops it. He's exhausted, and then he had to go through this whole hold-up-the-beam episode. And what's remarkable is that Louie was strong and defiant, and he just wouldn't break. I think as you were hinting at earlier, he says, "Don't look at me."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, right.
Warwick Fairfax:
He can't-
Gary Schneeberger:
He totally flips what he wants from Louie because now the power has shifted in his mind and in viewers' minds.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And at that point, you see that Watanabe falls to his knees. He has been defeated. In this battle of will and resilience, Louie has triumphed. We see that not long after, it's announced that the war is over, and we see a US bomber flying overhead. Soon after, care packages dropped from the planes, the gas disappear, and what's interesting, we then see Louie goes to Watanabe's quarters. There are no guards around. Watanabe's fled, and we see in Watanabe's quarters there's a photo of Watanabe as a kid with his dad, and his dad looks like a military officer.
So it's just emblematic of, "Look at this famous father who's done well, and Watanabe really hasn't." And then towards the end of the movie, we see Louie gets off a plane. He's back in the US. He's back home. He hugs his parents. He hugs his brother. He survived. He survived the war. He survived everything that Watanabe threw at him. It's remarkable.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that scene with Watanabe of Louie seeing his picture, going up into Watanabe's office and seeing that picture, right before then, Louie goes home and sees his parents. I've always taken that, even when I worked on the film 11 years ago, I've always taken that as Louie absorbing the humanity of his tormentor. It was something about this little boy with his father there that Louie wasn't angry at looking at it. He wasn't relieved at looking at it. It shook him a little bit. I think it moved him a little bit. That's my read on it anyway when you look at him going in there. The war is over, his tormentor is gone, and he sees this tormentor as a young boy in this situation, and maybe he sees a little humanity in that moment. I think that's a pretty good read given what ends up happening to Louie Zamperini in his life after Japan.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, it's so well said. I think one of the things we say in Christianity and the church is you hate the sin, love the sinner. Easy to say, pretty difficult to do under these sorts of circumstances. We also say it's important to forgive. That doesn't mean condoning the behavior of people like Watanabe at all, but yeah, to see the humanity in him. Maybe that was part of the journey of forgiveness that we'd find that Louie was on. But yeah, even people who've done horrific things to you, you might think what they did is uncomfortable and horrific, but to see the humanity behind them doesn't mean you condone a thing, but I think it ultimately is helpful. You got to see people as human, even some of the people that we think are the worst in the world. It is helpful.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, right. So enduring injustice often means suffering without immediate retaliation or remedy. From Louie's experience, what advice would you give to someone in a situation where they have to "survive mistreatment?" What inner resources or support can they draw on like Louie drew on in his determination and loyalty to his fellow POWs to get through it, right? How can they lean into this idea of if you make it, you can take it?
Warwick Fairfax:
In hindsight, Louie was about as well-prepared as you can be for his torture, especially at the hands of Watanabe. His mission was to break him. That was like one of his chief aims in the prisoner-of-war camp. From an early age, Louie experienced discrimination and injustice as a kid and was bullied because of his Italian heritage, but he overcame that. He didn't let that define him. He became an elite athlete, overcoming his negative belief that he was nothing because when his brother, Pete, said, "Hey, Louie, why don't you try out for the track team?" He said, "Look, I'm nothing." And his brother had to say, "No, no, that's not true," and he just really encouraged him.
There were the seeds of his faith that became important in his life by that pastor at his church, and then later by Phil, the pilot who was in that raft for 47 days. And speaking of that raft, being on that raft for 47 days was also, ironically, preparation for the coming torture. He had to learn to survive. You got to think one day at a time, you got to have hope, and you've got to have a plan. He was able to use those key concepts, think one day at a time, have hope, and have a plan, to survive the years of being tortured.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Then, we get to the epilogue of Unbroken, and it notes in history tells us some things about Louie. His inner battle wasn't over. He had nightmares. He had anger. He had severe PTSD from the abuse he endured. He was haunted by memories of Watanabe. It would've been easy, even natural for Louie to live out his days consumed by bitterness and hatred for his former captors, and yet, and this is the remarkable part, remarkably, he chose forgiveness. Louie's suffering had meaning for him. It was a test of his character, faith, and perhaps preparation for something greater. Boy, does that not sound like every guest on Beyond the Crucible, that their crucibles are all of that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
Later, we know how his story itself became an inspiration to millions. That's a powerful meaning that can emerge from pain. So, Warwick, holding on to anger, you have said many, many, many times, it's like being a prisoner, and forgiveness sets us free. Why is forgiveness so crucial for healing after a trauma?
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, certainly, forgiveness is one of the biggest lessons of this whole movie. Louie spends a lifetime in forgiving others for injustice that's been done to him. He finds a way to move beyond bullying as a young boy for being of Italian heritage. He doesn't let that define him, and despite the fact that he doesn't really want to be on the track team, his brother, Pete, encourages him, and he does compete on the track team.
He finds a way to forgive Mac for eating all the chocolate on the raft. I mean, he could easily have said, "You've just killed us. It's over. Let's give up. I mean, this is... I told you we had to ration at two squares a day, and within a day or two, he eats the whole thing?" But yet, throughout the rest of those 47 days and the time up until Mac passed away, you never see any indication that he holds that against him. He just treats him as if it never happened, which is truly remarkable. And Louie even finds a way to forgive Watanabe for years of torture and humiliation. It's really almost Olympic level of moving beyond injustice and finding a way to forgive.
Gary Schneeberger:
Which makes sense coming from an Olympian, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Well said. And we learn in the credits that after the war is over, he goes to Japan, and he meets with the guards of the prisoner-of-war camp, and he meets with them face-to-face and forgives them. Only Watanabe would not meet with him. We don't know why really. Maybe it's because he feels like, "My enemy has defeated me. I'm not going to let him humiliate me even more and come to meet me." Watanabe was too small a man, just couldn't handle it, I'm sure, couldn't handle that experience.
So beyond the crucible, we often say, and we say it all the time, that lack of forgiveness is like drinking poison, and it's like being in prison. Louie was literally in a physical prison, but yet, he may have been in a physical prison, but in terms of a metaphorical prison or his prison of the soul, he was not in that kind of prison. Louie was free during those times of being in a prisoner-of-war camp, during that time in the raft. He did not let his circumstances define him. That may have imprisoned his body, but his soul could never be chained.
And even in that key moment of the movie, he's forced to lift that beam, he was still free. His spirit was not chained at all. So, again, we say all the time, the forgiveness does not mean condoning injustice. Certainly, the kind of injustice that Louie faced. I mean, that's about as bad as it gets, that, just torture over years. But while we don't condone what's that kind of injustice, we can't move beyond our crucible and avoid being defined by it without forgiveness.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. We're not quite done yet, folks. There's title cards that come after the credits. From those title cards, we learn that Louie returned to the Winter Olympics in Japan in 1998 and ran a leg with the Olympic torch. Ironically... Probably not ironically, probably as you said, Warwick, because we were talking about this. Probably very intentionally, very near the prisoner-of-war camp that he was at, he went on to marry and start a family.
As I mentioned, I'm blessed to have met and become friends with his son, Luke. And he founded a camp for troubled boys called Victory Boys Camp using his story to help young people find the right path. And he also became a sought-after inspirational speaker sharing his message of forgiveness and resilience, all this stuff. And again, I'm going to use my perspective from having worked on this movie in Hollywood in 2014.
All of this didn't fit into the full movie because you learn in Hollywood, movies have three acts. Here's the problem... the challenge, not a problem. The excellent, wonderful challenge about Louie Zamperini's life, it had four acts. It had the Olympics, it had being adrift at sea during the war, and it had prisoner-of-war camps, but it also had at the end of that that fourth act. That fourth act was forgiveness. That fourth act was starting a family, and it was one other thing that we've hinted at a little bit throughout this entire episode, and that is, right, Louie, when he was a kid, there's a flashback to the preacher in his church and his friend, his fellow airman on the boat who he asked some questions about God.
One of the things that I was responsible for, ironically, and I'm proud of it mostly because as a Christian, it was a great opportunity to do this. Angelina Jolie who directed the movie was the one who... It's three acts. You got to do three acts. It's a great movie in three acts. She couldn't get to the fourth act. But we, the firm I worked for, spoke with her, and we got a title card put at the end of the movie that said this. I'm going to hold it up right here so you can see it. I actually took a picture of it when I watched the movie, and here's what the title card, the last title card reads on the film, "After years of severe post-traumatic stress, Louie made good on his promise to serve God. The decision he credited was saving his life."
And that's really where Louie's story lands in the fourth act, which there is, by the way. There is a second movie that was made that does all the stuff that we were talking about here called Unbroken 2, I believe so. If you want to check that out, check that out. But Warwick, for folks who've been listening and watching, and might feel like their crucible experiences have ruined their life or left them aimless, what lessons can we learn and apply to help us come back from our crucibles from Louie's story?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Louie Zamperini's life is a story of resilience and refusing to be broken. He is, indeed, truly unbroken from the very beginning, whether it's being bullied by other kids, feeling like he doesn't fit on the track team and he's nothing, he's worthless from his perspective to coming back on the last lap of the Olympics race, surviving 47 days on a raft, and through surviving years of torture at a Japanese prisoner-of-war camp. Louie never gives up. Louie never gives in. He never gives up. He will not be defined by... We had more than one worst day. He many. He had years of worst days, years of challenges, years of beatings and torture, 47 days of worst days on a raft. I mean, he's had a lot of worst days, but he refuses to be defined by... He refuses to be broken.
So I think that Louie shows us that the key to survival within our spirit and soul is resilience, hope, faith, having a plan, and taking life one day at a time. And we see those kernels of faith that maybe were laid when he was in church as a boy and then by this fellow airmen in the life raft and his initial conversation saying, "If I survive, I'm going to follow you, Lord, and follow your plan for my life." It took a while, and he had, as you mentioned, PTSD and challenges after the war as I'm sure many people who've fought in World War II and other wars have had. But through all of those circumstances, some in the movie, some in the second movie, he never let them break it.
And really, I think the key lesson that we can learn is every day, we have a choice. Are we going to be broken or unbroken? Are we going to be defined by that day, which may be an incredibly tough day, it may be the worst day of our life, or are we going to choose to say, "I'm not going to let this day, I'm not going to let these circumstances defeat me. I will be unbroken today, and then the next day, and the next day, and the next day, each day," to refuse to be broken in your spirit so that in that sense, you're living a life of significance unbroken in the sense that if you're defined by your worst day, that's not being unbroken? Being unbroken means coming back from your worst day, from your most challenging crucible to lead a life of significance, life on purpose, dedicated to serving others.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, you may see the lights are on now. The theater is no longer dark. We finished our feature. We have finished the first episode of our summer series. We have eight in all. This was the first one. If you enjoyed this, we ask you to do a couple things. One, if you're listening on your favorite podcast app, subscribe so you never miss an episode, and leave a comment. Tell us what you think about the show in general, this episode in particular.
If you're watching this on YouTube, do the same. Subscribe to the channel so you get episodes every week when they come out, but also, leave a comment. Tell us what you thought about this episode because we really appreciate your feedback. And next week, we are going to move on. I'm going to run outside right after we finish this and put that up on the marquee. Our film next week that we're going to discuss is Hidden Figures. So until then, folks, save us an aisle seat.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
How Bonhoeffer Film Director Battled His Own Darkness: Todd Komarnicki
Our guest this week, Hollywood writer, producer and director Todd Komarnicki, discusses the instructive and inspirational life of German pastor and theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the subject of a film he made last year. The movie, which explores how Bonhoeffer summoned the courage during the rise of Adolf Hitler to call his nation’s churches to stand against the Nazi leader’s attempts to overtake them, is a profound look at the power of faith to change a life. And so is Komarnicki’s personal story, which we also discuss here, of how rediscovering his own faith saved him from a darkness from which he almost didn’t escape.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Todd Komarnicki:
They call me on a Friday and they say, "We have the money. On Monday, we're making an offer to a director unless you say finally that you're going to do it, otherwise we got to go find somebody." So, I didn't say yes. I said, "I need to take the weekend to pray with my wife." And then on Monday morning, while we were walking back from school dropping off our son, my wife told me that we were moving to Europe to make Bonhoeffer.
Gary Schneeberger:
You just heard our guest this week, Hollywood writer, producer, and director Todd Komarnicki describe how he came to bring the film Bonhoeffer to the screen last year. His true story of the German pastor and theologian who came to call his nation's churches to stand up to the barbarism of Adolf Hitler is a profound look at the power of faith to change a life. And so is Komarnicki's personal story, which we also discuss here of how rediscovering his own faith saved him from a darkness he almost didn't escape from.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Todd, it's wonderful to have you here. We actually met at a Taylor University event the last few months where you were speaking and highlighting your new movie Bonhoeffer, and we're also were introduced by Michael Lindsay, the President of Taylor. All my kids went there. It's a great Christian university. So, just for folks that may want to know a little bit more about Todd, Todd is a prolific writer, producer, a director of film and television, as well as an acclaimed novelist. So, you'll remember some of Todd's movies. He wrote the screenplay for Sully, which did exceptionally well with 2016 AFI Top 10 Film, grossed over $240 million. He also did Perfect Stranger, The Professor and the Madman, Resistance, and perennial Christmas favorite Elf, which did fabulously well. Grossed over $220 million. My family and I have watched Elf so many times. There's occasionally somebody might've said, "Do we have to watch Elf again? It's a great movie, but we've watched it so many times."
Todd Komarnicki:
I'm really sorry about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's how many times.
Todd Komarnicki:
It has penetrated the culture at the saturation point. It's crazy.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's a great movie. And so, Todd's production company Guy Walks Into a Bar, which fabulous name, have earned over half a billion dollars. So, Todd is a very proficient at his craft and has done extremely well.
Gary Schneeberger:
Hey, can I jump in, Warwick, right here?
Warwick Fairfax:
Please.
Gary Schneeberger:
This, Todd, is a first for this show, more than 250 episodes in. You're the first guest we've ever interviewed who I've written a book and you're in it. That movie that Warwick talked about, Perfect Stranger, here it is right here. In the films of Bruce Willis, there it is, and your name is right at the top as the writer of Perfect Stranger.
Todd Komarnicki:
That's crazy.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, there we are. All worlds collide.
Todd Komarnicki:
I feel like opening a high school yearbook and showing that you were voted most likely to write a book about Bruce Willis.
Gary Schneeberger:
That could have been true. That could have been true.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, we want to get to chatting about Bonhoeffer, but we'd like to hear just a bit of the backstory, Todd, just growing up and were there any keys to your interest in writing and filmmaking growing up? So, what was life like for young Todd growing up?
Todd Komarnicki:
Well, I was incredibly blessed. I won the parent lottery and I was raised in a home that was deeply rooted in faith but was also deeply rooted in the arts. So, my mother was a professional singer and my father, although he felt like he didn't have overt artistic ability, was really kind of a working poet. He was always writing long letters to my mom and my sisters and I, sometimes 17, 18, 19 pages long when he'd be away on business, and they would often include what could only be described as sections of pure poetry. And he was an avid reader, as was my mother. So, Sinatra was always playing, Tchaikovsky was always playing, Mahler was always playing. My mom was on the piano. Both my sisters sang. I was involved in musical theater from the time I was five all the way up into college and acting, and also pursuing a life of sports. I was blessed to be able to walk both sides of those train tracks.
So, it was an amazing childhood. I just got asked by my daughter who's 15 and she's doing a legacy project for her sophomore end of year project. And so, she interviewed me yesterday and one of the things that she asked me was, "What is the happiest holiday memory of your life?" And this is within the context of the Crucible that you were talking about. Within this incredibly happy childhood, there was also this year, it lasted about two years, where through the collapse of the company my dad was working for, through fraud, nothing to do with my dad, we went from being upper middle class to having nothing.
And it happened very suddenly. I was nine years old, and I know later when I talked to my dad about it, what he was going through at the age of 46, certain that he'd been part of something that he wouldn't recover from, and he would go for long runs and want to just run out of his own skin because he didn't know how to fix what happened or how to look after his wife and three kids with this sudden terrible turn of events. But ironically, and I'm a firm believer of flowers grow in manure or another word, but really, all the beauty comes from the hard stuff. Remarkably, that Christmas is my favorite holiday memory. And if I want to have a joyous trip back into the past, I just think about that Christmas. And in that Christmas, we had no ornaments because everything was in storage from our previous house.
We were in a tiny rental house in New Jersey and we made our own ornaments, and everybody in the family got one gift. And I remember my gift, it was a large soup or coffee mug, maybe 20 ounces, with all the NFL team emblems around the cup. I kept it until my forties, until it completely fell apart. And the joy in that house while we were making those ornaments, we were given a puppy that Christmas from the litter of my aunt and uncle, little Shadow running around in this rental house. And so, I know what my dad was feeling. He was feeling hollowed out. He was feeling confused and injured. But whatever my parents did, however they portrayed what was happening, it felt like the most magical adventure in this new unusual house with hardly any furniture ,and a little backyard where I could play Wiffle ball, and we'd make our own ornaments and the family was so close, and the dog sitting up on the top of the couch waiting for us to come home through this picture window, all joy.
And that was right in the middle of one of the worst things that ever happened to my dad. So, I think about that a lot now in raising children and trying to help them understand not only is difficulty excellent, but it's not to be run from, it's to be investigated. It's to be understood while it's happening, even when it's not understandable at all, that we need to sit with it. We need to look at scripture where again and again, the rhythm of the Psalms are, the hard Psalms are where are you? I can't find you, have you forgotten me? And at the end, I know you love me and you love me forever. So, I honestly believe that so much of human suffering and spiritual anguish and mental anguish comes from trying to flee difficulty. And when you can't get away from it, you add to the difficulty by experiencing the pain of feeling trapped, and there's this great freedom in just sitting in the difficulty.
Warwick Fairfax:
Boy, that is an incredible story and as I listen, and I'm sure you've probably thought of this, as you described that moment when you're a kid, little did you know that amongst other things, you were born to make a movie about Dietrich Bonhoeffer because you're quoting his philosophy in a sense, which we'll get to. But it's like you had a perspective in that Christmas when you went from having a lot to having so much less and you had this attitude, well, I don't know about them, but attitude is not running from difficulties, but just maybe running towards them. That's straight Bonhoeffer as we'll get to.
But, so just talk about that Christmas. Why do you think it was so special and there was so much joy amidst, and I'm sure your dad was just feeling like, how could I have not seen this? What could I have done? Why was I here? This is unfair. He probably went through a sea of emotions. But for you, why was there so much joy? Why was that Christmas so special?
Todd Komarnicki:
I think because my parents made it an adventure, and I don't know what they were sharing with my oldest sister who was five years older, but to a nine-year-old boy, I didn't need to be sat down and explained like, "Here's what fraud is and here's what this particular individual lied to your dad about, and now we're out of luck." So, it wasn't so much about explaining as it was this notion of adventure. And there's a great book called The Adventure of Living by Paul Tournier, it was one of my dad's favorite books. And it's just about moving through the world with your sense of wonder, wide open. What's next? What could it be? Could be anything. I always have said that the worst thing or the most difficult thing about life is we never know what's going to happen next. And the best thing about life is that we never know what's going to happen next.
And my parents just created an atmosphere in which that was okay. Whatever was next, whatever... I was a new kid in a school five consecutive years because we moved so much. And so, maybe that's crucible that turned me into a writer because I had to figure out all the characters and how to navigate and how to hang onto who I was while having to re-explain every time who I was. But, yes, I would give the credit to my parents and obviously the Holy Spirit, that within their suffering and whatever their last conversation was in bed every night, whatever level of worry or disappointment or sorrow that they were feeling, they did not pass that on to their children.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, how do you... So, it sounds like you had this sense of wonder. How did you get into writing screenplays and making movies, and how did that journey kind of evolve?
Todd Komarnicki:
Well, this is for people who have listened to me before on podcasts, this is the one metaphor I always have to repeat. I try really hard to never tell the same story twice. It's tricky. You don't want to wind up sounding like a talk show guest. But this is just a fact of my life. So, the metaphor is, a mother dog taking a wandering puppy who's gone astray by the scruff of the neck and returning them to where they're supposed to belong. That's my whole life. And so, me becoming a writer, never thought about it. Me winding up directing Bonhoeffer, said no to it. On and on and on. If you want to see what my life has been made out of, it's been me drifting away, not drifting away from God, but just like, "Oh, I guess I'm supposed to be over here." And then God, as mother dog saying, "No sweetheart, here."
And that's why the skin at the back of the neck is so loose on a dog because it doesn't hurt to be carried. It's there because God knows the puppy will go astray. And so, it's loose skin so the mother can take because it has no hands. It's a genius creation how God did that. So, I'm still at 59 sniffing around in the wrong gardens all the time. And then, oh, and now I notice in mid-carry, okay, all right, we're going back over here. Okay, fine. I look forward to where you're putting me. And that's been the story of my whole career. Becoming a screenwriter, becoming a producer, becoming a storyteller has really just been God's plan, an inescapable plan. I'll tell you another story that involves my dad. One of the things that's deeply frustrating about Hollywood and even more so now is that so little of what they purchase or hire becomes an actual movie.
So, I've got a giant script graveyard of movies that I've sold that have never gotten made. I've written 23 television pilots for the networks and had one show made. So, that's 22 hired scripts, all the characters, all the work that will never see the light of day. So, at a certain point, I think it was 2007, I sort of had it and I also felt like, okay, Lord, you're sustaining me financially in this life, but it's very unsatisfying and nothing's coming out, and I feel like I'm farming and I can't bring anything to market. So, I feel like I'm ready for a change. I feel like I should do something else with my life. Not completely leave the business, but I was ready to set my pen down. And I spent a couple of days in London with my dad playing the violin, and he listened, and then at the end of our time together, he said, "Okay, I have an answer for you and you're not going to like it."
"Okay. What is it?" He said, "The only way that you're going to get through this desire to no longer write is to write." He said, "I've known you your whole life and I know this to be true. You are a writer. It's how you see the world, it's how you move through the world. It's who you are. So, you may not want to do that today, but down the road, you're going to find yourself writing your way out of this." And I said, "You're right. I don't like your answer and you're wrong because this time, dad, you've been wise for a long time, this time, big swing and a miss." And three weeks later, I had to call him humbly and say, "You were 100% correct."
And in fact, as a gift that God provided in addition, for the first time, and I mean this to be true, for the first time, I began to enjoy writing. The long bulk of my career I had loved having written, but I hated writing. Writing was so hard and just grinding, and the result or the finishing was deeply satisfying. That's what motivated me further. But from the point that my dad re-guided me, I have loved writing and I love it. I love writing scenes, crafting stories, even if no one sees it. I have this beautiful relationship with the Holy Spirit and the blank page and the open hours, and it's delicious.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, one of the things we find at Beyond the Crucible, we've had so many guests that say, "What I went through was a blessing." And these, we've had so many stories. I think of Stacey Kopas, who, Australian woman in her teen years became diagnosed as a quadriplegic diving into an above ground pool. She of course was angry at herself, suicidal ideation, how could I have been so dumb? But as the years went by and she speaks and coaches, she said she's thankful for what she went through, almost as a blessing. I've had several guests, more than one have said this and we've coined a phrase, and Gary and I say it fairly often, that the crucible didn't happen to you, it happened for you.
If you learn the lessons, there is beauty. I mean, none of us are advocating crucibles. We don't, I don't want to diminish the pain. We've had some people with some graphic crucibles, but it can transform you into something better if you let them. I think that's what you are talking about. It reminds me of something else you said when you spoke at Taylor. You said something about 95% of scripts are turned down, and I forget the exact phrase, but of something like the blessed no or the blessing of no.
Todd Komarnicki:
Oh yeah, yeah. This is [inaudible 00:18:28].
Warwick Fairfax:
That just blew me away because I think it's in the same vein I'm talking about.
Todd Komarnicki:
The phrase God gave me about five years ago is vitamin no.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right. That was it.
Todd Komarnicki:
And I'm a big fan. I used to take no as frustration or disappointment or delay or confusion. And no is just beautiful. No is so beautiful. And if every time you hear no, you take it as a vitamin and you know you're getting stronger, that by the time yes comes, you now have the capacity to live out that yes. And so, I'm a big fan of vitamin no. And also, just to talk to young people because in the beginning, if you're dreaming of being in the movie business, even just getting the first toenail across the line is wrapped in 10,000 nos from everybody back home. Why would you do that crazy thing? Why would you pursue that dream? Get a real job. And then, all the people that are standing guard in front of the invisible kingdom that don't want you in either, it's pretty much exclusively no for a number of years. So, if you can receive that as, "Oh my goodness, this is fantastic. Rain on me. Water my crops with all these no's." It's transformative.
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's talk about your faith journey. I think you were raised maybe in a Christian home? There's a challenging period, maybe your refining period and you came back to faith, and just talk about maybe the arc of your faith journey because I have a feeling it informs everything you do and everything you are. You can't understand who you are, Todd, without understanding your faith journey and that arc.
Todd Komarnicki:
100%. Yeah. I mean, I think we all know the word rescue. It's why we can share a kindred spirit among ourselves. But 100%. I'm only alive, I am only anything because of the saving grace of Jesus Christ. There is no me here without it, and there is no way I can live my life without that being engine, oxygen, blood, thought, word, deed. Jesus is king. And the way I found that out was by rejecting him. I had grown up in a Christian home, loving home like I said. I got to college. Didn't take very long before my faith was in tatters because I didn't have a real faith. I had a performative faith. I knew where all the books in the Bible were. I knew how to get a pat on the back at Bible camp. I knew that I could sing the hymns without looking at the pages, but I didn't know Jesus. And so, when college offered some other viewpoints, there was no scaffolding to hold my building up.
Now, again, we talk about this notion of the necessity of difficulty in the crucible. So, this rejection of God that I actively pursued and vocally pursued, God bless some sweet, sweet kids at Wheaton who had to suffer under my Nietzschean certainty of meaninglessness of life on long bus rides with the baseball team. And I was evangelistic about the fact that there was no God. So, it's extraordinary. I'll tell you a story about one of my teammates in a minute that encapsulates how God never walks away from us even when we're in the pitch dark.
But that pursuit of darkness was vital to me to understand that when you go deeper and deeper into the dark, there's no answer on the other side of it. It just gets darker, and it gets so dark that all you want to do is have an end. And when you think it has no meaning, you're encouraged to want to end it. So, it's a miracle I'm here. That's why this baseline of childlike joy is kind of my signature. When I meet new people, or even my dad, he thought I was kidding. He was like, "You can't actually be that happy. You can't actually be that upbeat about everything." But when you kiss death in the mouth and you walk away... So he... There was a rooftop.
And this is a real thing. This is not a metaphor. There was a rooftop of my dorm building. I lived on the sixth floor and it was a seven-floor building and the eighth floor was the roof. And I would go out and stand at night on the edge of the roof and close my eyes and put my arms out so I could just fall. So many nights. And years later, maybe I was 25 or 26, I started to feel a small kind of fist-like pressure against the middle of my back, sort of where a belt would go around a pair of pants, just sort of this pressure like this. And I felt it for, I don't know, it wasn't an injury, it was like being, like someone was pressing me from behind. And finally God said to me, "That was me holding you by the belt so you wouldn't fall."
Gary Schneeberger:
When you and I talked before the show, you described the way that God brought you back, back when you were still a few years younger. One of the things I tell people who are also writers, "The best compliment I can pay to you is I don't like you very much." And the reason why is, all the words that you use, I know the meanings of, but I just don't think to string them together the way that you have done. So, the phrase that you used to describe how God brought you back, you used two phrases. One you said was an act of rough mercy or an act of violent grace. That's how God got you back when you were in the darkness. That's true for your life, but that's true pretty much for the crucibles we face too in general, isn't it?
Todd Komarnicki:
No, absolutely. This goes back to what we were talking about before. We're taught to flee difficulty.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Todd Komarnicki:
And this reminds me of the great poem, the Hound of Heaven. The guy is running the whole time and feeling like he's going to be devoured, and when he finally turns around, he sees it was God chasing him the whole time just to say, "I love you." So, I think he allows, I don't think God said to 19-year-old me, "Fall apart." I think he allowed me to go to the far edges of myself and to nearly disappear, but he never left me.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Todd, talk a bit about how you bounce back because that's, I sort of sense maybe some different undertones in your story that maybe before you didn't need God, but afterwards, you did. Maybe there was a change in that.
Todd Komarnicki:
I think I was just a cocky kid. Things were facile for me. Sports, academics, I was quick-witted. I didn't have a sense of grace or compassion. I didn't see the world as anything except something for me to be entertained by or to entertain. I didn't see need. But when you suddenly find out that you're still here and it's come through personal pain, that's all you see. You see in everybody, you see Christ in them and you see what they're going through, they're suffering, and you want to do something about it. You want to let them know that there's a God who loves them.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, were there any keys to you bouncing back because you're a new man now. How did you get out of that Nietzschean black hole? I mean, that's a black hole that many never escape from and they spend their lives in bitterness and anger and darkness.
Todd Komarnicki:
So, my sophomore year for our spring baseball trip, our assistant coach on that team was a military man. Retired military, but had been military. And so, when we went down for the southern swing in Pensacola, we stayed on an army base. And I'd been doing this standing on the building thing, I'd been walking down to the train tracks and standing next to the speeding trains with the same inability to take that last inch step to ensure that I was gone. But when we arrived at this army base, I knew that I had everything I needed because there were nothing but guns. There were guns everywhere, and not secured. Just walls of guns. It was crazy.
And so, when we arrived that night, I knew this was it. So, I was sitting in my room with my best friend, Steve Nagel. I always call him Jesus with a crew cut. He had a great crew cut back in the day. And at about 2:00 in the morning, I wrote my suicide note to my parents. And he stirred and he said, "What are you doing?" And so, I read it to him. And I said, "I'm going to do it tonight." And he said, "You're going to have to get through me first." So I thought, all right, I'll wait him out. He'll fall asleep. It's the middle of the night. And later, I found myself having fallen asleep. I woke up and it was maybe 6:00 in the morning.
I looked over and his bed was empty. And then, I looked to the right and he was asleep, but he was asleep up against the door, his back against the door and his legs in front of him so that I couldn't get past him. So, that was the first thing. I went back to Wheaton after the trip and I called my parents and I, and this is the greatest act of parenting I think I've ever seen in my life. I read them the note, I read them my suicide note because I knew I had to do it. I couldn't live anymore.
And their reaction, in the same way that Steve had saved my life on the night in Florida, their reaction to their son reading this letter to them saved my life, long enough for me to start to hear God. They were so calm. They didn't say, "We're coming to get you." They didn't say, "Go to a hospital." They just poured love on me. Poured it. And they said, "We don't know when or how, but it's going to get better. And it might not be a lightning bolt. God might not sit on the edge of your bed and tell you it's all okay, but it already is all okay. He has you. We love you."
And I remember, I was experiencing such mania. You sort of can't sleep and you just feel completely crazy. And I remember pouring all that static into the phone and receiving back all this grace. And then, it really physically tamped down this panic that I had. Wow. And then I started thinking, you can't do that. You can't do this to those people. You can't. So, that kept me around long enough to one day I came home to my apartment, and I knew that when I chucked my faith, I had a living bible that I'd grown up with and that I had with me.
And when I chucked my faith, I had been super angry and had actually stood over a waste paper basket with the living Bible. So angry that it was so filled with lies. And you know those green metal sort of industrial trash cans that are in schools? So, I'm standing over one of those with the living Bible, and I'm unable to throw it away. I was like, can you throw a Bible away? Is it going to burst into flames? Literally, I couldn't put it in the bin. So, I took it and I hid it behind all my other books on the bookshelf.
So, on this particular night, I came home and I knew it was back there sort of humming. And I reached back and I grabbed it and I sat on the edge of my bed and I held the Bible and I said to the God I didn't believe in, hilariously, "If I open this," this was my bargain. "If I open this, it better be true." Or else what? I mean, it's just so funny. And guess what? I opened it and it was true. It was true.
Warwick Fairfax:
Very well said. Well, I want talk about Bonhoeffer, and I've read Eric Metaxas' book on Bonhoeffer and it was just blown away. I loved your movie and it was great telling that story. Clearly, this is a challenge to tell a story as epic, and at least in some circles, it's well known. And so, from what I understand, and you mentioned this at Taylor, this was a movie you didn't want to make and did everything you could possible almost not to make it. It's like, no, not happening. So, talk about how God leading you by, to use your analogy, the scruff of your neck. It's like you were trying to run the other way and God's like, "No, Todd." So, talk about why you didn't want to make it and how you ended up making a movie you didn't want to make?
Todd Komarnicki:
Well, I mean it's just the great old line, how do you make God laugh? Tell him your plans. It's exactly that. I got a call, I got sent a script to rewrite, to do a production polish on a movie that was financed and ready to go with the director, about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And I read the script and it was a redo, a start over. It wasn't a polish. And in fact, Bonhoeffer himself was the second lead character in the story of his life. And the lead character was a completely invented non-historical character. On top of that, there were seven other major characters that were not historical, that were made up. And so, I said no.
And I said, "If you guys go make this movie, you're going to lose $10 million because he had a spectacular life and he deserves a good movie. And also, he deserves a movie told from his perspective. He left behind so much work that said how he saw the world. You don't need to tell it from God's eye, you tell it from his perspective." And the producer who had sent me the script said, "Can I... would you come say that to the financiers?" And I said no. And I said, "I told you, you tell them." And then he, I've told this joke before, it's not a joke, it's just true. But it is funny. He said the two words that, apparently if you say these two words back to back, they're my kryptonite. And the words were sushi lunch.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's so very LA of you. That's so very LA.
Todd Komarnicki:
Well, this was New York. This was all happening in New York.
Gary Schneeberger:
I know, I know. That was my LA experience though.
Todd Komarnicki:
But I'm a sucker for sushi, but I never had it for lunch. I was like, this is outrageous. They have sushi for lunch? These are fancy people. I'll go meet with them. So, I eat my sushi and I tell them exactly what I said on the phone and they said, "Great, we'll start over. We want you to do it." And I said, "No, I'm too busy and I don't do independent films. I only do studio movies." So, it's not... Financially, it's such a massive lift. I mean, it's months and months of reading all his books and I have a family to raise and I have a life in New York and I can't do an independent film. I'm not a kid. And Mono Campores, the lead financier said to me, "Go home, talk to your wife, pick a number, send it to me and I'll pay it."
Warwick Fairfax:
Wow.
Todd Komarnicki:
So, I wasn't a jerk. I didn't ask for $2 million in unmarked bills left by a post box. But I gave him a number that was going to show that he needed to really be understand what he was doing, that he was being part of something that was serious and studio-esque. And he said yes immediately. Then I wrote the movie and they had $10 million in the bank to make it, and the budget of this movie I wrote was 22. So, they said, "We're going to go raise the rest of this money. Would you come on to produce with us, because you obviously know how to produce and we've never produced anything."
And I said, "Well, I'll help you, I'll guide you, but I'm not a money raiser. I'm not going to help you find money. It's not what I do." And then of course, I was on fundraising calls because I said no. And then, six months into that process, they said, "Well, we have all the money raised. We've decided that we don't want anyone else to direct it but you. You know it the best and we've come to love you." And I said no.
Gary Schneeberger:
Can I stop you just for a second and say-
Todd Komarnicki:
Sure.
Gary Schneeberger:
... because earlier you said you have a pile of scripts that are all stamped with no, right? It was like 1 out of 24. You've gotten a lot of no. Hollywood, I worked there for three years in the film industry. No's come like a whirlwind. This was your chance. I mean, you were saying no to Hollywood. How did that feel to have those roles reversed?
Todd Komarnicki:
It wasn't no to Hollywood. And I do say no a lot. I mean, there's projects come on the regular that I say no to. So, it wasn't new to say no, but these folks were not movie people. They were just people who loved Bonhoeffer and had money, and they were committed. They were certain. They were like, "It's you and we're going to just pursue you." So, I didn't feel an emotion about saying no. I felt certain that the answer was no. I felt [inaudible 00:39:53]. I thought I was right. And then, another six months go by, they raise the rest of the money. They call me on a Friday and they say, "We have the money. On Monday, we're making an offer to a director unless you say finally that you're going to do it, otherwise we got to go find somebody."
So, I didn't say yes. I said, "I need to take the weekend to pray with my wife." And then on Monday morning, while we were walking back from school dropping off our son, my wife told me that we were moving to Europe to make Bonhoeffer. She told me. So, I never said yes. She just said, "Yeah, we're getting a house, it's going to be great. We'll be in the countryside outside of Brussels and we're going." And I didn't say yes to directing Bonhoeffer until the 10th day of shooting where we were in a cathedral in Belgium and I'm surrounded by 200 crew members taking stuff here and there, we're setting up the shot. And I said, "Okay, okay, God, I accept. I will... Jonah in the belly of the whale. Okay, I get it. This is where you wanted me." And I'm hoping that he had a good old chuckle at my terrible timing.
Warwick Fairfax:
Boy, the power of no. And it's like, well, you can say no to God. It's like, I hear what you're saying, Todd, but you're doing it anyway. It's like, what don't you get?
Todd Komarnicki:
That's the mother dog. It's the mother dog. It's so loving and so compassionate because he gave me this beautiful thing to do. It's not like I was asked to become a coal miner and suffer in the... I got to direct a movie. I got to have this amazing thing. But he wasn't interested in my answer. He was interested in me, and his answer was the better answer.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, let's talk a bit about this movie. Not everybody may know the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and I think of it as a little bit like a movie about Lincoln. It's like, but don't give it away, well, I'm sorry, but Lincoln does get assassinated in 1865. So, this historical figure. So, talk a bit about just the overall arc of the story, and then I have a few particular scenes I want to ask you about. But just talk, for those who don't know anything about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, why is he such an incredible person that we need to know a lot more about than we do know?
Todd Komarnicki:
Yes. He was a singular and clarion voice against evil at a time when the rest of the German church completely acquiesced to Hitler. The thing that's front and center in this movie that is not a part of what we're taught in American history because it doesn't involve America and the war yet, is that the first thing Hitler did in '33 when he took power, he only had 33% of the Politburo. He was just chancellor. He did not have the power that he wanted, and so he went after the church. And in that time, it was different from what we call the American church. There's no real American church. And in Germany, it was like a monolithic, the Catholic Church and the Protestant church, and it was equally as powerful as the government, if not more so. And Hitler just went in there, and now you have to remember, this is not Hitler with concentration camps yet.
He's not espousing that yet. But he's definitely othering the Jews, making them into the villains. And he gets both the Catholic Church and the Protestant church to essentially kiss the ring. And as I say in the movie, exchange full pews for full hearts. And it's part of a rising nationalism that happens in Germany and is fueled aggressively by the church. And here's Dietrich, 27 years old, back from Harlem where he really met Jesus for the first time in the Abyssinian Baptist Church in his time at Union Seminary in New York. He's watching aghast as Hitler is proclaiming himself the head of the church, and no one else will say anything. He gives a very famous sermon at Kaiser Wilhelm. The Nazis walk out on him. He essentially paints a target on his chest that never leaves his chest for the next 12 years because he made a decision that Jesus is a man for others and the Jews are being othered,, and the people on the margins are being othered and the church should be fighting for them first, not last.
And the church should not be giving power to a man. It should be giving all power, glory and honor to a loving God. And there were some people that gathered around him in the resistance. They formed what's called the Confessing Church, and many of them did not survive the war. And he went on this journey where he went from being a pacifist to finally coming to believe that he needed to throw his hat in with an assassination attempt. And he still, he said, in German and in the German translation of the movie is clearer. In the English in the movie I have, his best friend asks, "Will God forgive us if we do this, the assassination?" And Dietrich says, "Will he forgive us if we don't?" And actually in the German, it's better. And in the German essentially it said, "We will need to be forgiven if we do this, but we will also need to be forgiven if we don't."
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's such a great story. I mean, you highlight so many of the good moments. Obviously, early on in the movie, Bonhoeffer, Dietrich loses his beloved older brother Walter in the first World War in 1918, which is awful. But yeah, you highlight well just the impact that this Abyssinian Baptist church, African-American church, and they sort of ask him, "Have you met the Lord?" And the personal faith is just, he doesn't quite, he understands theology but not, he just doesn't have a frame of reference for that.
Todd Komarnicki:
And he was a pastor. He was actually pastoring and preaching, but the bulk of theologians at that time, they didn't go to church. It was not relational at all. It was all academic. So, that's why he was so blindsided by the question, "Where were you when you met the Lord?" And he actually said, "What do you mean met the Lord?" I write about the Lord. I think I know something about the Lord, but he hadn't met him. And then, he met him in Harlem.
Warwick Fairfax:
And there's another wonderful scene where Bonhoeffer is with a buddy of his, I want to say, is it Frank Fisher? And they're on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. It's a great scene. It's at night and he says, "Gosh, there's so much hate and racism and it's just awful." And he says, "Gosh, it's so fortunate that kind of hate doesn't exist-
Todd Komarnicki:
In Germany.
Warwick Fairfax:
... in Germany." And Frank says, "Well..." Kind of hate's everywhere. I Forget the exact words.
Todd Komarnicki:
Hate comes in every color. Your eyes just haven't been open yet.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly, exactly. It's so well said. And then it goes back to Germany and you point out the rise of Hitler, and people didn't really believe, people of education and intellect, what have you, didn't believe that he would ultimately succeed long term. But, yeah, I mean, something switched in Bonhoeffer, just as you said, speaking in front of the Kaiser Wilhelm Church and the Nazi offices, and he knew exactly what he was doing. And we, the German church are giving their hearts to another. The German church must stand on God's word alone. And at the time, his mentor, I guess Martin Niemöller is kind of like, the pews are filling. He has an epiphany later, but not at the time. And there was some older pastor that's kind of secretly praising him. He goes off to the US, back to US and the UK and just raises awareness of Hitler. And then, he goes off to this retreat, I think it's on, there's a Baltic coast. It's northern Germany somewhere.
Todd Komarnicki:
Yes, exactly.
Warwick Fairfax:
On the coast. And I remember reading about it in the book by Eric Metaxas. And so, he meets Martin Niemöller there again, who admits he's wrong. He didn't see it. And, yeah, he talks about the Nazi Bible, which is just horrific, saying that Jesus is airing the now 12 commandments, one of which is-
Todd Komarnicki:
It's a real thing. It's a really [inaudible 00:48:59].
Warwick Fairfax:
... Honor your furor and keep the blood pure? I mean, it's like... One of the great points in the movie, there are so many good points, it's when Martin Niemöller gives a sermon in church. Is it the same church, the Kaiser Wilhelm Church?
Todd Komarnicki:
No, it's Dalin. It's where he was the pastor in Berlin.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay. And he just gives one of the great sermons probably of the time. He says that when the Nazis came for the socialists, he did not speak up because he wasn't a socialist. When they came for the trade unions, he didn't speak up because he was not a unionist. When they came for the Jews, he didn't speak up soon enough because he wasn't a Jew. So, when they come to my door, will there be anyone left to speak out for me? I mean, that is just, both of these men had huge courage. There's another amazing moment when Bonhoeffer, he is back in New York, he's talking to this pastor, African-American pastor, the Abyssinian Baptist, and he says, "Will you follow him all the way to the cross?" And Bonhoeffer says he's running towards, not running away from the cross. And it's incredibly moving moment because he could have stayed in safety in the US or in Britain. But he knows, going back to Germany at this point, is certain death. I mean, he's accused [inaudible 00:50:33].
Todd Komarnicki:
It's the return to Jerusalem, really.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah.
Todd Komarnicki:
I mean, if you want to connect it to the Christ story, absolutely he could have stayed and lived a long life and preached and written, and there's no question about it. But he went back to Jerusalem. He went back where he felt called to be.
Warwick Fairfax:
And that's, and there's a, towards the end of his life, he died, gosh, a few weeks, a couple of weeks before the Allies rescued Bonhoeffer's fellow prisoners and maybe three weeks or so before Hitler committed suicide and the war was over. But in the movie, he is in this, in a small building with some other prisoners, and the guard there basically gives him a way out. It's like...
Todd Komarnicki:
Which is 100% true. He was offered escape. The guard that oversaw him in Tegel prison, watched him for a period of weeks and months, interact with family visitors, talk to other prisoners, and became completely enamored with the quality of the soul of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and risked his own life to offer escape for Dietrich. And Dietrich said no. There was another no.
Warwick Fairfax:
And not only that, which is incredible, that they had communion shortly before Bonhoeffer died. And he invited this guy in and his fellow prisoners are saying, "This is a German. These are Nazi soldiers." And he said, "Well, communion is for everybody." I mean, that is the gospel. It's for sinners, it's for everybody. It's not just an us against them. It's we. We all are sinners. I mean, talk about faith and action. And as he dies, he really, just before he dies, he talks about, from the Sermon on the Mount, he says, "Blessed are those that mourn for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure and heart for they shall receive Go." He's smiling as he is metaphorically going to the cross. I mean, that is faith.
Gary Schneeberger:
There's no shortage of crucible experiences that Dietrich Bonhoeffer goes through in the film, not the least of which is the persecution by the Nazis. But is there one particular, either one crucible or several crucibles or a kind of crucible that can be helpful to us as we go through our own difficult experiences, our own crucibles, our own efforts to move from trial to triumph that Bonhoeffer walked out? Can we learn something from him that we can apply to our own lives when it comes to facing down crucibles?
Todd Komarnicki:
Yes, I would highly recommend that everybody read his poem Who Am I? And the best way to experience it is that the BBC did a beautiful Sunday program in April in commemoration of the 80th anniversary of Bonhoeffer's death, where Tom Hanks reads Bonhoeffer's poem Who Am I? And you feel, because of Tom's skill, the full depth and layering of what Bonhoeffer's saying about his walk through the crucible, because the question he keeps asking himself in that poem Who Am I? is, am I the person that everybody celebrates and thinks is great? Am I the person that I think I am, self-recriminating, wracked by doubts? Am I the person who wants to be in love? Am I the person that feels like I should not receive anything?
Essentially, he asks, like the Psalmists, am I human? Yes, you're human. And the end of the poem is so beautiful. It's simply ends, "No matter who I am, Lord, I know I am thine." That is a great entry into the life of Bonhoeffer and to how similar he is to us because he's not a hero with a cape. He's a regular guy, and he had doubts and he had loneliness and he had frustration, and he traded his entire life of privilege just to speak the truth in love. It's very relatable, this guy.
I remember my colleague who's 31. He said before he saw the movie, he was terrified that it was going to be a movie about someone that he could never be like. And when he walked out, he said, "Oh my goodness, I can be like Dietrich." Those are the heroes we really want. The people that have done, on paper seemingly impossible things, but when you see the actual practical application of what love looks like in courage, you feel like, I can do that.
Gary Schneeberger:
I was going to say, Warwick, we've covered a lot of the stuff that we said we wanted to cover. As I say all the time, it sounds, you heard folks, captain turned on the fasten seatbelt sign, indicating we've begun our descent to end the conversation, but we're not there yet. Before I turn it back to you, Warwick, and give you the chance to ask Todd a couple questions more, let me point out folks, if you want to see Bonhoeffer right now, it's available on Amazon Prime and it's available on Apple TV. So, you can check this movie out that we've been talking about from the man who we've been talking to. You can check that out. Amazon Prime, Apple TV. Warwick, any final question or questions for Todd?
Warwick Fairfax:
So, Todd, there may be somebody here who, maybe for them, today is the black night of the soul. They may not be on the edge of a rooftop, but they may be just feeling like life is meaningless. It's just there is no God, there is no purpose. What would a word of hope be for somebody that was where you were, at least in some sense, some word of hope that would help them take baby steps beyond that sort of dark night of the soul, if you will?
Todd Komarnicki:
The place that you're in is a trampoline. It's not quicksand. That you will bounce back. It may be just an inch a day. It may be sudden, six feet and you see daylight, but you will bounce back. You are not disappearing. You are becoming the more beautiful, brave, strong, pure, true human that Jesus is calling you to be.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject's been spoken, and our guest today, Todd Komarnicki, has indeed spoken that last word.
So, Warwick, we just got done with a very interesting, very emotional moving conversation with Todd Komarnicki, who is a Hollywood hyphenate, writer, director, producer. And he produced, and we talked about this too, the movie Bonhoeffer. So, there's a lot of stuff to talk about. But if you could pick, well, not if you could pick, let's pick one or two really high points that folks can look for in this episode. Good takeaways from this episode from Todd's story and from the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer that he tells in his movie.
Warwick Fairfax:
What I love about Todd is he was so authentic and so vulnerable. We talked a lot about faith and darkness, and he really did have a couple of years or so of a dark night of the soul. He grew up in a family of faith, but I guess it really, in his words, wasn't anchored. When he talks about times when he could have ended his life, and there were people that basically stood up for him and loved him enough, including a friend in college and his parents that showed him such love, it is incredible. And when I think about his story, he talks about something that's very counterintuitive, and we hear that from some guests we've had on the podcast. It's almost the blessing of crucibles. You don't run away from them, you run towards them, and that as we'll discuss, is really the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, whose movie he made. But just that notion that often running away from crucibles and pain just causes more pain.
But what are the lessons? What can I learn? And I think the person he is with so much great compassion and love and wisdom came of the lessons he learned from his crucible. I love how he talks about God, about being like the mother dog picking up the puppy by the scruff of its neck, and how the puppies have just more folds in their fur. And so, you might think, I want to go a different way, but from his perspective, that God Kind of takes you kind of where he wants to. And I think he was always meant to write, direct and produce a movie about Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Listen to the podcast and watch it for the fuller story, but a man who grew up in Germany and was a Lutheran pastor in the '30s as Adolf Hitler was rising to power. And really, he spoke truth to power when a lot of the Lutheran churches sold out the Hitler and it became the Reich's church.
And ultimately, he died for his faith. It's just his courage. This was not cheap grace. There's a book that Bonhoeffer wrote, The Craft of Discipleship. This was really dying for his belief. So, just the message of the Bonhoeffer movie and life story is standing up for what you believe in, not running away from what you feel God's call or some higher powers call on your life. Not running away from your crucible, but running towards it. Both Todd and Bonhoeffer, they ran towards their crucible. And we talk a lot on this podcast about the crucibles don't happen to you, they happen for you. What are the lessons we can learn from our worst day? How can that equip us to really inspire, love and help others? And I think that's what Todd does in his movies, and that's what Dietrich Bonhoeffer did in his life.
Gary Schneeberger:
Before we go, Warwick and I have a couple of favors to ask you. One, if you've enjoyed this on your favorite podcast app, this discussion, we ask you to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We do them every week. Same thing, if you're watching us on YouTube, leave a comment, subscribe to the YouTube channel for Beyond the Crucible. And again, you will not miss any episodes because they come on video every week as well. So, until the next time we're together, remember this, and if it didn't come through in this conversation, I don't know where it's going to come through in any conversation. We know your crucibles are hard. We know crucible experiences can rattle your world. But we also know this. We know it's not the end of your story. What's happened to you didn't really happen to you. If you dive into it, it happened for you and you can turn it around, and it can help you guide yourself down a path to a vision that will lead to the most rewarding destination you can arrive at. And that destination is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit BeyondTheCrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
