We tend to think of summer, and try our best to experience it, as a season of freedom — vacations, sunshine and a slower pace of day-to-day life. But if you’re still somewhere between the midst and the aftermath of a crucible that has sent shockwaves through your world, the season’s bright veneer can feel like a cruel mismatch to the storm still roiling inside you.
Maybe you’re navigating the fallout of a divorce or the death of someone you loved deeply. Maybe you’ve lost a job you were off-the-charts passionate about, one that fit your talents and values as snugly as your favorite ballcap. Perhaps you walked away from a career that you felt threatened your health or integrity. Or you could be still working through the emotional toll of a serious illness. Whatever your crucible, its heat can linger long after the immediate crisis cools.
Summer, however, with its longer days and built-in pauses, can be a powerful ally in your pursuit of peace. But that peace doesn’t come passively. Healing isn’t something you drift into on a pool float. It’s something you work toward—intentionally, almost-certainly imperfectly, one day at a time. Here are some hard-earned truths and practical action steps for using this season to reflect, regroup and reclaim the perspective, and the hope it brings you, that your crucible didn’t happen to you, it happened for you.
Pause with Purpose
Many of us, in the wake of difficulty, rush forward—back into routines, work, relationships—anything to avoid sitting still with our pain, regret and anxiety. Summer gives us the space to pause. Use it.
But don’t confuse stillness with stagnation. Purposeful pausing means setting aside time regularly to reflect on what you’ve been through — to do the “soul work” necessary to turn your worst day into your greatest opportunity. That might mean journaling on the back porch as the sun sets. Or taking a solo walk in the park with nothing but your thoughts and the breeze. Ask yourself: What am I feeling today? What am I avoiding? What still hurts? Naming the ache is the first step toward healing it.
Here are 4 summertime opportunities to beat the heat of a crucible that still sears:
1. Redefine Rest. When we’re wounded, rest is not optional—it’s essential. But real rest is more than binging Netflix or collapsing into bed early. It’s about what fills you, not just what numbs you. This summer, ask yourself: What kind of rest do I need today? There’s physical rest—like naps and sleep. But there’s also emotional rest (setting boundaries), creative rest (reading poetry, painting) and spiritual rest (prayer, meditation, silence). Schedule rest like it matters—because it does.
2. Seek Gentle Community. Crucibles can be isolating. Friends don’t always know what to say, and we may not know how to ask for what we need. But healing rarely happens in a vacuum. It happens when we lean into our relationships with those we call our fellow travelers. Use the slower social tempo of summer to reconnect in ways that don’t require you to “be OK.” Have a friend over for iced tea with no agenda. Join a book club or volunteer at a local event—somewhere you can simply be yourself, free of the self-imposed baggage of feeling “less-than” that a tough crucible can leave us feeling like we’re dragging around with us. Sometimes the most healing thing is to be seen, without having to explain. Your closest family and friends, your true allies, won’t require you to be anything or anyone but yourself.
3. Find Small Anchors of Joy. When life shatters, joy can feel hard to come by at best, irresponsible to nestle into at worst. But healing doesn’t mean denying what hurts—it means remembering that beauty and pain can coexist. That there is hope to be found inside heartache. Make a list of small things that bring light into your days: a favorite summer fruit, an old song that makes you smile, the feel of grass under bare feet. Build them into your days with intention. These small moments won’t fix your pain—but they can remind you that healing is possible.
4. Choose Hope (Even When It’s Heavy.) Healing isn’t linear, and peace doesn’t arrive in a finger snap like a summer storm. It comes slowly, unevenly. But summer offers us space to be deliberate with our hearts. To reflect. To rest. To say, even in the midst of deep wounds: I am still here. I am still healing. I am going to see this painful process through until I turn my trial into triumph. Hope is not the absence of pain. It’s the belief that something meaningful can come from that pain. That’s a lesson we at Beyond the Crucible have learned from our own journeys from setback to significance, and the truth the guests on our podcast have shared with us, no matter how different the circumstances of their crucibles may be from each other.
Let this summer be your season of unrushed return—one breath, one step one sunrise at a time. You don’t have to be in a mad dash. But you do have to move. Peace isn’t found. It’s forged. And summer, with all its heat and hush, can be where your healing begins.
Reflection
How can you redefine rest this summer? Commit to doing one of the ideas you come up with on a regular basis.
Who are your fellow travelers? And how can you spend time with them in ways that help you slow down and allow the pain of your crucible to be tamped down?
Make a list of small anchors of joy you can pursue this summer… then practice them.
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
A great vision, we discuss this week in the sixth episode of our series within the show on the Beyond the Crucible Roadmap and its actionable truths, is one which seems so real you can almost feel it and touch it. You have this overwhelming desire to make that vision a reality.
This vision may be a combination of lessons you’ve learned from your crucible. It will typically involve people you want to help. Either way, a great vision is one that is other-focused, that in some way will help the world to be a better place.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. To truly move forward, you've got to have a vision that you're off-the-charts passionate about, that in some ways is a life-affirming vision, which we call a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And what'sinteresting is that as we'll find and discuss more, that for many of our guests, and us, that vision may well come out of The Crucible.
Gary Schneeberger:
A great vision we discussed this week in the sixth episode of our series within the show on Beyond the Crucible Roadmap and its actionable truths is one so real you can almost feel it and touch it. You have this overwhelming desire to make that vision a reality. This vision may be a combination of lessons you've learned from your Crucible. It will typically involve people you want to help. But either way, a great vision is one that is other-focused, that in some way will help the world to be a better place.
Welcome friends, to another episode of Beyond The Crucible, and it's special, another episode of Beyond the Crucible, because it is another episode in what we're calling the series within the show on the actionable truths of the brand. And let me set the stage like I always do when we do this. This is our refreshed way. It's refreshed, not entirely new, on how we help you get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity. It's what we've named the Beyond the Crucible roadmap as I said. We describe it like this, and I'm going to read it right here from my sheet, because I always want to make sure I get it exactly right. We describe it as this, "how we help you turn your worst day into your greatest opportunity. We provide the essential actionable truths to inspire hope, enable and equip you to write your own life-affirming story."
If that sounds like fun, keep listening and watching because we think it is. The roadmap has been built, just so you know, from our proprietary statistically valid research into how people experience crucibles, and what we've learned from guests on this very podcast and from our experience about what it takes to move from trial to triumph after a crucible. And the most revolutionary news in this whole process for us has been finding what we call the actionable truths of the brand, as I said earlier. To pass these life-changing truths along to you, our listeners and viewers, we're going to do something similar to what we did last year with our series within the show, and we've been doing that. Once a month, we have been taking time to focus on the roadmap, on the actionable truths. And we're doing it for 10 times this year.
And you may realize right now we're a month that's six months into the year. Wait, we're going to ... We're going to take a break for a while. We're taking the summer hiatus. We're going to have a summer series that's going to come up. We're not going to tell you what it is yet. Keep listening, because we'll explain what it is. You're going to like it. But we will be back, just so you know after this episode with the next version or the next episode in the Actionable Truths series within a show on September 23rd. Okay? So you don't have to wait that long, but that's when we're going to be back doing it after we finish this one.
But stay tuned, because you're going to want to hear in the weeks to come what our summer series is about. Warwick and I are very, very, very excited about it. So what we have going on right now, Warwick ... I've asked you this every single time we've done an episode on the actionable truths. And by now I think you could turn your back to the camera and just recite it like that, because so good at it. But to level set us in our discussion of the sixth of these truths, let me ask you this, why actionable truths? What do we mean by that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Beyond the Crucible, our focus is on how we get beyond our worst day to lead a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And so we have now what we call Beyond the Crucible roadmap, how you go from trial or crucible to triumph, and that is a life of significance. And we've found that there are 10 actionable truths, 10 catalysts that help you move along your journey from your worst day, to where you're living your life-affirming vision, you're thriving. It feels like this is where you're meant to be. You're living out some higher purpose, maybe even God's purpose. You feel like you're triumphing and you're truly living your life for significance. So these actionable truths have always been implicit in our thinking, and they're actually chapters in many, if not most cases, in my book, Crucible Leadership.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's pretty good symmetry, and we didn't plan it that way, folks. That's not the way that we planned it, that's the way it came out through the research. This is how those things fall together. So Warwick is like a human computer. No. I'm kidding, right? He's the creator of the branch, so it makes sense, right, his book would then dovetail nicely with what we're talking about here? And I'll ask you one more question before we get going. And that's this, individually not going through each one, but each one of these actionable truths helps us move beyond setback to significance. How do they do that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. These actionable truths, think of them as accelerators or even enablers to help us move from a crucible or our trial to a life of significance or triumph. And you could absolutely make the case that without these actionable truths that you'd go nowhere. You'd be stuck in the pit, stuck in trial, your worst day. It's almost like rocket fuel that just helps the engine move forward. I think earlier you mentioned, what's that special additive in Fast and the Furious that enables it to go, those cars, incredible speeds?
Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, NOS. Yeah, nitrous oxide. NOS. Yep.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So in a sense you could think of these actionable truths as nitrous oxide, that they really turbocharge your journey back. Obviously in Fast and the Furious, you should use this with care. You probably need a little less care using these actionable truths, but you get the idea. They turbocharge you to get from your worst day to, in a sense, your best day, when you're a triumphing and leading a life to significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And I've got to ask you one more question on the tail end of that, because I've said this a few times in the intros to these episodes. We didn't arrive at the name "actionable truths" for this, just like that. A lot of names for things that we do come to us very quickly. This one took a little bit of back and forth and thinking through it. And I'll raise my hand and say, I don't know that I was the greatest fan of it at first. But the more that we've done it and the more that we've seen it play out in our conversations, more feedback we've gotten on it, it really is a perfect term, actionable truths. Why do you think that is? What makes this idea of something that's truthful, but also must be acted on ... Why is that so critical to bouncing back from a crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. That's a great question. A truth can be useful, but a truth that is not lived out isn't helpful. And we've talked about this actually in earlier podcast in the series, when we talk about faith, in other words, whatever belief and value system you have? That's helpful, but faith, your beliefs and values that are not lived out is not really accomplishing much, if anything. It really needs to be lived out, which is what we earlier described as character. Faith, beliefs and values lived out. So truths are helpful, these truths that we've gone over, whether it's authenticity, faith, character, self-reflection, a number of ones we've discussed, those are helpful. But those truths like self-reflection, Oh, I think I need to self-reflect about my crucible. I think that's a good idea. Maybe tomorrow, maybe next month.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, believing that self-reflection is important, but not doing it, is not going to help you at all get out of the pit. You have to get out of the pit. You have to get beyond your worst day. And so truths are only meaningful if they're actionable. And obviously you can act on many things, but if you're acting on things that aren't your truth, you're going to be running around in circles, not going anywhere. But you'll be moving rapidly, but maybe in circles. Well, that doesn't get you out of the pit, maybe you dig yourself in deeper. You just burrow deeper and deeper, because you keep moving, spiraling down. So it's the combination of the two actionable and truths that really gives this whole concept path that enables it to really turbocharge you and get beyond your worst day.
Gary Schneeberger:
And so far, folks, again, to level set where we've been, we've talked about the parts of the roadmap. The first one is your trial, which is your crucible. The second one is processing. How do you process through it? Now, we're moving to the third part. And Scott, are you there? I'm going to need you to give me a drum roll before I say where we're at on the roadmap now. So here we go. Excellent, very well done. We are at the vision part of the roadmap. And we're going to talk first in the vision part of the roadmap about vision. And I want to ask you this, Warwick, why is vision such a critical sixth step after a crucible to begin our journey, truly to begin our journey of getting that fast and furious roadster moving, to move beyond to recover from our crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. We're at a point where we're ready to move forward. It is time to move forward. We've been through a crucible. We've reflected on what happened and why. We've decided to be authentic, not be asked, not be some fake version, some person with a mask, but the true authentic self that we are. We've decided to dig down deep into our beliefs and values, our faith. And we've also decided that we're not just going to have those beliefs and values on a bumper sticker, or on a plaque hanging on a wall. We're actually going to live these beliefs and values out day to day, which is what we call character. So these are all good points to get us where we are now. But to truly move forward, you've got to have a vision that you're off-the-charts passionate about, that in some ways is a life-affirming vision, which we call a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.
And what's interesting is that as we'll find and discuss more, that for many of our guests, and us, that vision may well come out of the crucible. But wherever it comes from, it's a vision that you've got to be off-the-charts passionate about. That's got to be focused on others in some sense. One definition I've come across about vision, is vision is a present picture of a future reality. So a great vision is one that seems so real that you can almost feel it, touch it, maybe even smell it, like it just feels so real that it seems more than a vision. It seems reality. And you have this overwhelming desire to make this vision a reality. It feels like a calling, maybe a holy calling, a sacred calling, a sacred mission. And this vision may be a combination of lessons you've learned from your crucible.
It will typically involve people you want to help. It could be people like you who went through similar crucibles, or it could be to help people avoid the crucibles that you went through. You might say, "Gosh, what I went through is horrific. If I can forewarn or forearm people to avoid some of the mistakes that I went through, at least in some senses," that can be helpful. So either way, this great vision that's on your heart is got to be other-focused in some way to make the world a better place. One of the things we often say too, at Beyond the Crucible, it's not the size of the vision that's really most important. And certainly we can get intimidated looking at other people's vision. Maybe it's people we've read about in the media, seen in documentaries.
Maybe it's even our buddies or friends in our neighborhood, and we might feel so less than. And so yes, it could be some global vision to bring clean drinking water to developing nations. But it could also mean helping to clean up your neighborhood park or maybe setting up a soup kitchen in your city. The size of the vision isn't so important. What matters is, is this vision important to you? Do you feel like it's some holy or sacred calling that you feel absolutely called to pursue? That kind of vision is going to last, if you feel like it's almost some sacred calling that you're called and almost driven to accomplishing.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's the ability to see beyond what you can see, I think is a good way to define it. And I say that, because we've come to the part and every episode when I go to Webster's 1828, the very first dictionary that our friend Noah Webster created. And this is the first time Warwick that Noah Webster's definition isn't going to help us at all, because Noah Webster's first definition of vision is this, actual sight. Thank you, Noah. There are several other ones in there that pretty much talk about the same thing. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to go to our definition that we used in our internal document about what we discovered in the research on the actionable truths, on the road map, and you used the first part of it.
But our definition of vision in this context, in the road map, is a sacred calling, you use that, that summons you to a mission beyond yourself. That seems to me to be a perfect place to continue talking about this subject. There are three stages in our research work, as you know, and our research is qualitative and quantitative. And there are three things that that research has shown us about how people experience this section of the roadmap. And the first one is this, experimenting with new conditions, trials and first failures. How do we do this?
Warwick Fairfax:
So irrespective of the size of the vision, when you're in a pit of despair, any kind of vision seems like Mount Olympus or Mount Everest. It just seems impossible at that point, no matter how big or small, others may look at it or you may look at it. So yeah. Launching it into a new vision absolutely can seem overwhelming. We feel like hiding under the covers, because this vision, it might seem too hard, too intimidating, too big for us to accomplish. Typically, when you've suffered your worst day, your sense of self-confidence is zero. Whether it's something that was done to you or mistakes you made, your feeling of self-worth seems to be non-existent, so you don't really have any reservoirs of confidence or pretty much anything else to draw upon.
So it is tough, so any vision is going to seem almost impossible. So the key thing is to break down that vision into stages and small steps. And we may not know as we'll get into quite what that vision is going to be. But you think of what's one small step forward that I can take to begin that journey to accomplish your vision? Just what one positive step. You might not have it all figured out, but you might have this sixth sense, this gut instinct, "You know what? I feel like this is something maybe I could do, and what's one small step that I can take?" That's the key. Don't think of the whole vision. And it could be a microscopic, baby step to you, but what's one small step you can take to move forward?
Gary Schneeberger:
It's the same way that you eat an elephant, right? One bite at a time.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
The second point that our research shows us that people go through, is growth and new skills, preparing for major change. Again, how is that accomplished in real life as you're bouncing back from a crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
So in addition to taking baby steps forward, we need to assess what we need to do to bring this vision to reality. And that starts with looking internally. We've got to assess our skills and abilities and to assess to what degree do we have those skills and abilities to make this vision real? If we feel like there's not one area of our skills and abilities that looking at it dispassionately and logically, that really can help bring this vision to reality, it may not be no, but it may be caution. Think very carefully, because it's going to be so much harder if you bring nothing to the party, frankly.
So that's obviously helpful, and we need to assess if we don't have those skills and abilities, is this a mission, a vision that we want to devote our life to? Count the cost before launching into a vision? And so having looked internally, then we need to look externally. And typically bringing a vision to reality is a team sport. Few visions, can you do it alone. And so the smart person asks themselves, "Okay. I have certain skills and abilities, but I don't have all the skills and abilities needed to make this vision a reality." So we need to ask for help from others. What we call a team of fellow travelers. People have skills and abilities that we might not have.
Now, typically, when we're trying to bring this vision to reality, we're going to encounter obstacles, difficulties. Life is not Disney World, typically there are challenges with visions that we're trying to make become reality. So that's normal, and we shouldn't be afraid of this. When we have failures and setbacks without vision, we need to learn from them and assess them. Okay, what does this mean? Do we need to tweak our vision? Change it? Do we need to bring different people on board? What do we need to do? So obstacles will happen, but look at them as opportunities. Okay, so what does this say about our vision and where we're going? Do we need to change direction a bit? But that's inevitable, that will happen. As you move on from baby steps and it starts to grow, you're definitely going to encounter obstacles. That's just life.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's interesting, because it's important, isn't it, in this step as you're trying out new things, as you're taking baby steps and you're making those steps a little bit bigger, and you're making them more one after the other ... It's important to not see these setbacks as true crucibles, right? They're setbacks, they're normal growth mile-markers as you're moving forward. It can be easy, but we have to fight that urge or that feeling that these are going to crush us. We have to weather them and learn from them. That's fair, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Most athletes will tell you they learn pretty much nothing of very little about matches they've won, games they've won. But they learn a lot from failure. They learn a lot from when they've fallen short. Okay, what if it's tennis? What stroke do I need to work on? If it's football, okay, maybe I've got the wrong players, or maybe the game plan wasn't the best. Maybe we need to change it up. There's all sorts of lessons that failure can teach us. And so when we face obstacles and we feel like things aren't going the way that we hoped, we need to just assess that. And sometimes those challenges can come because we're growing and expanding more than we thought we would perhaps.
And so we need to assess, okay, so maybe this vision, this organization, maybe this company that we've started, it's getting to a point that maybe we all don't have the skills and abilities that we need now. Maybe some of our fellow travelers, some of our team members, maybe they were helpful at one stage, but maybe we need to supplement them with folks that have different skills. So how do we respond? How do we learn from these challenges and opportunities? As I said, maybe we need to tweak what we do and change.
And one of the other things I think we need to consider, and most organizations that start with the visionary founder, which is many, if not almost all, they typically run into this problem in which you might have the skills and abilities to start an organization, a nonprofit or a for-profit company. Maybe you don't have the general manager skills to take the company to the next level. And that's where often founders will just grip tightly onto that vision and they won't let go. "Hey, I started it in my garage and this is my deal and everybody works for me. I don't need help. Not senior level help. I've got the vision. Everybody else is here meant to implement. I don't need strategic advice. I got this."
That's normal and understandable, but it's really not helpful. And so what you might need to do, and many if not most organizations do this, you might need to bring on a general manager or a CEO, with you remaining as the founder and the visionary. And obviously this could end up being large, even if it's a small organization, a small nonprofit, you'll need people with administrative managerial skills, people that know how to hire the right people, even recruit the right volunteers. That requires at any level some degree of managerial and organizational ability, as well as an ability to relate to others. Some people, they aren't great entrepreneurs, but they don't always know how to motivate a team.
That's not always in their skillset. So that's where you've got to make sure you've got the right people on board, bring a general manager or CEO, or depending on what level your organization is at, and you might even be faced with an even harder decision. You might be faced with a decision that this vision has grown beyond this. Maybe we need to hand this vision over to other people. These are all things that you need to think about when you're at the stage when the vision is growing. It could be something big and big can mean different things, but you feel like it's really taken off. You need to be able to get the right people on board, make sure you are in the right lane and get off the bus if you think you're holding the vision back. That requires incredible self-reflection and incredible maturity that is not easy to have.
But if you really care about your vision, these are questions you really need to ask yourself. And maybe ask some close friends, maybe some board members, team members, those tough questions. "Am I in my right lane? Do I need to take a bit of a backseat? Maybe be founder emeritus or whatever, so I need to bring other people on?" You really need to ask these tough questions, which if it's not about you, you'll ask. If it's all about you, then you probably won't ask that. So lot of self-reflection is required when you're trying to bring a vision to reality.
Gary Schneeberger:
Indeed. Excellent points. That must be why you're the founder of Beyond The Crucible, is my guess. And the third point that the research told us is that, and it's a big one, it's preparing for big change, grand trial, revelation and insight. And you were pretty excited about all of this, and you might've jumped the line a little bit on that, Warwick. Anything else you want to add?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I was a bit too passionate about the vision. Maybe off-the-charts passionate about helping listeners and viewers figure out their vision, bring it to reality, that I went forward a bit too fast. But yeah, I think in summary about this, especially as that vision starts taking off, there will be challenges. Gosh, we don't have enough people. Maybe we don't have enough funding for this nonprofit. The needs in our town is so big and people love what we have, whether it's our soup kitchen or whatever it is. And we just don't want to turn people away that have need or that's a good problem to have, obviously, if people love what you do. And you just got to see those challenges as opportunities. Okay, great. We need more people. We need to raise funding. We need to inspire some donors to give, just maybe give them a picture of just what we're doing.
And those are all opportunities. And yeah, you've got to assess. "Okay, let's make sure I'm in the right lane and bring other people on board to help take it to the next level." But really the key with big change is you've got to make sure it's not all about you, just check your ego at the door. And if you feel like, "The sole reason I'm doing this is to give my ego some strokes, you just need to leave." You got to make it ... It's not about you.
And so just doing internal daily reflection from a faith-based point of view, scripture meditation I've found helps me. You've got to keep yourself anchored in your beliefs and values, because if you're not careful, it can start out with good intentions, but it can morph into, "it's all about me. It's all about everybody praising, Ian. Look how wonderful I am." So as the vision gets bigger and we get more plaudits and praise from people, that's where challenges can really crop up. You've got to make sure it's not about you and it's about helping others. So keep your ego in check and be wary. As the vision grows, it's almost inevitable that your ego will be tempted. So just watch when that happens and take steps to make sure that you keep your ego in check.
Gary Schneeberger:
Interesting that you just talked a little bit about when a vision can get a little out of control, because about to segue into my favorite part of this show. And I've just determined while we were sitting here Warwick, that it would be nice to get theme music for this part of the show. Maybe we should ask Scott to see if he can find some theme music that we could play, not in this episode, but maybe in future episodes. Maybe there's some good theme music, because what we're going to talk about now, folks, is what I like to call taking a look at Patience Zero, the founder of Beyond the Crucible, our host who lived all of this stuff before he began to write about it, and then talk about it on the podcast.
And Warwick, let me ask you this. Talk about your journey, because it's a very interesting journey and it touches on some of the things that you talked about. Not so much about your ego taking over, but about following a vision that wasn't yours. Talk about your journey with vision and how you were able to move beyond your crucible that was kind of ... Not kind of, was wrapped up in a vision, if not your vision.
Warwick Fairfax:
My story, maybe it's not different, it feels a bit different in that I grew up with a ready-made, pre-packaged vision, if you will. I didn't have to think about, "Gee, what vision did I want to devote my life to?" I was born into a vision, born into a noble vision, actually. So I grew up in this 150-year-old family media business in Australia. And the vision I grew up in, it was not a small vision. It was a massive one. This was a media company that was founded by my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax in 1841. By the time I was growing up, it grew to become a very large media company with newspapers, TV stations, radio stations, magazines, newsprint mills. It had the Sydney Morning Herald, The Age in Melbourne, the Australian Financial Review. This was the equivalent in Australia of the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's important to know it was equivalent to when they were at their heyday, right? Because newspapers, and even in the US right now, are not at their heyday. But, these are the three biggest papers in three big areas that were the biggest in the United States during their heyday. So that's what you're talking about-
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
... to compare apples to apples.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Very well said. So back in the '80s, '70s, '80s, they used to talk about the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age in Melbourne as the rivers of gold. They Were incredibly profitable, mainly through classified ads, which could be job ads, real estate. This is all pre-internet. So you wanted to find a job, you wanted to find a house, you went to the paper. You pulled up your local paper and circled places to rent or jobs. And you called them up and no serving internet didn't exist. So we live in a different era now, but back then they were incredibly profitable. And so I was seen by my parents as the heir apparent of this very large organization.
And being the dutiful son ... It's funny, I often use this analogy, this biblical analogy, the parable of the prodigal son. I wasn't so much the prodigal. I was the quote, unquote, "good son" that stayed at home and worked hard. And so I got good grades in school. I did my undergrad degree at Oxford University like my dad and some other relatives before me. I received my MBA from Harvard Business School. It was all to make sure I had the skills and abilities that was needed to fill my future role. For instance, there were various proposals by management for a capital raising that my parents thought didn't make a whole lot of sense. So it's like, "Okay. I need to learn about finance, so that if and when I'm in this position of control and influence, I'll be able to push back if management comes up with some harebrained capital raising scheme that I don't think makes sense."
That was why I needed to have some knowledge of finance. In fact, after I went to Oxford and before I went to Harvard Business School, I worked on Wall Street at Chase Manhattan Bank. It was all part of the plan. It wasn't about, what did I want to do. It wasn't about, was I interested in finance? Irrelevant questions. So it's like, what skills and abilities do I need? And unfortunately, in a sense, I have very high perseverance and high dedication, which ... Dedication and perseverance are not bad in and of themselves. But those two together, dedication and perseverance, it's like, "Okay. What do I need to do? And I'll just work very hard to make sure I have those skills and abilities."
And so this was all to help perpetuate and preserve the vision of the founder, my great, great grandfather, John Fairfax. It was his vision. He was a great business person. And as I've read in the last few years, this book by Stuart Johnson that should come out in the next few months, who as a PhD and a person of faith, wrote a book about John Fairfax. He was a person of great faith, great husband, great father, elder at his church. When he died, his employees loved him so much, they said, "We've lost a kind and valued friend." There were no worker rights laws in the 1800s in Australia or pretty much anywhere else. So this was a noble vision, but this wasn't my vision. And in fact, I'm not even sure it was my father's vision. We both inherited it. But I was committed to doing my duty and to preserving the vision, and what a noble vision it was of my great-great-grandfather.
We tried to be an independent paper in which we weren't beholden to any party. The original motto of the Sydney Morning Herald was, "May Whigs call me Tory and May Tory call me Whig," which in modern language means, "May Liberal call me Conservative, may Conservative call me Liberal." And that was really the ethos of the company. So if you'd asked me back then in the '70s and '80s as I was growing up, so to speak, how committed was I to the vision, I would say 100%. I would say I was off-the-charts passionate to that vision. It was an important vision. How could you be against preserving theideals of the founder and having quality in newspapers, quality media That served the nation of Australia? That's a pretty big vision. That's an important vision. How can you say that's a worthless vision? It's not. It was a very worthwhile vision.
And at the time in the '80s, I mentioned to a relative that this vision was so important to me that it was burning a hole in my heart. If you have a vision that's burning a hole in your heart, it would seem like you're pretty much off-the-charts passionate about it. How can that be wrong? How can that be bad? How can preserving a newspaper company, a media company, with the ideals of the founder, how can that be wrong? It feels so right. So the problem as I mentioned, is it wasn't my vision.
So in early 1987, my dad died. Early that year he was in his late eighties. I was a child of his third marriage. And so I launched this $2.25 billion takeover, essentially to bring the vision of the company back, the ideals of the founder, and to have the company well run. Three years later, with too much debt and a recession that hit Australia in 1990, we had to file for bankruptcy. So what's interesting is once I gained control of the company in late 1987, I knew subconsciously there was a problem. While I had the high perseverance to make the takeover work, the joy and the passion when not there. Subconsciously, I didn't want it to be there.
Gary Schneeberger:
Let me stop you there just for a second. We have a phrase that we talk about, and you've actually spoken about this as you've told your story. We have a phrase that we talk about the elevator ride, which really shines a spotlight on what you're talking about right here of not having a passion for this vision. Explain a little bit what that elevator ride was, and how it pinpoints how uncomfortable you were, even though you were following this thing that you thought you needed to follow.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary. That was a key moment in the story. By late 1987 we'd been able to obtain enough shares to take control of the company. The way you physically get control of a company is through a change in the board of directors. So here I was, I hadn't been in the headquarters of the company for a while in these months that we were trying to get enough shares to finalize the takeover. So I went into the headquarters of John Fairfax Limited, which was headquartered in a part of Sydney called Broadway. You can't make this up. And so I took the elevator up and it was early in the morning. And on that elevator, there were other staff members, journalists, and I remember feeling so uncomfortable. Everybody knew who I was. My face had been in the papers and on TV for months, and I didn't want to talk to them. I'm sure they didn't know what to say to me. Was one of the longest elevator rides of my life.
Got off the elevator, walked into this almost like mahogany-paneled boardroom with paintings of my ancestors from my dad all the way back to my great, great grandfather, John Fairfax. There was my new board on one side of the table, there was the old board on the other side of the table, including a couple of family members of mine. And they were all polite and wished me and my team well and handed over control. But I remember thinking as I looked up at those paintings, "They must've been wondering, what is this26-year-old kid doing?", as I then was. That was the age I was at the time, "Does he know what he's doing?" and in that moment, in subsequent moments, I was all about trying to preserve the company. We had to do numerous refinancing, because we had too much debt from the beginning. Other family members sold out, didn't want to be in a company controlled by 26-year-old, which is understandable. And the October '87 stock market crash at our asset sales. So we were in trouble from pretty much day one that we took control at the end of 1987.
So we're doing new refinancings. I brought on a chief executive that increased operating profits 80%, which showed the company wasn't being as well run as it could have, but it was just, we were in dire straits from day one. And so we were in survival mode, but it was pretty clear that I didn't want to be there. I pretty much never went down to where the journalists were a few floors below and walked around and said hello to people, because I felt like, "I don't belong here."
I felt shy, out of my depth. By that point it was subconsciously clear that this wasn't my vision and I so didn't want to be there. It was just really awful. Yes, I brought in new management, but it was so clear that I didn't want to be there. But it's too late, I'd launched this takeover, and I'm not one fortunately or unfortunately to give up, and so I just kept going and trying to make it work. But the debt was so huge that despite what the new chief executive did, it did a phenomenal job. It was just too much debt and by late 1990, we had to file for bankruptcy.
So this whole takeover was a huge and costly lesson, obviously financially, but money has never really been a huge motivator for me. It was incredibly costly, certainly emotionally, spiritually, and it was clear that this is not my vision. So I had to ask myself, how would I move beyond this crucible? How would I ever get beyond it? I wasn't asking myself, "Well, what's a new vision for my life?" I was in survival mode. I was like, "How do I get out of this pit? How do I move forward? What do I do with my life?" People often grow up thinking, "Gosh." when you're a young kid, it's like, "Do I want to be a fireman? An astronaut," or whatever, "an NFL player, an NBA basketball player?" [inaudible 00:40:21] And then eventually-
Gary Schneeberger:
No baseball for me, just so you know. Baseball [inaudible 00:40:26]
Warwick Fairfax:
It's like, "Okay, maybe I'm going to be an accountant, journalist," whatever it ends up being. But I never had those thoughts, they were irrelevant. So I had to think at age 30, which I was at the time the company went under, "Well, now what do I do?" And so it was really just baby steps. I wasn't really thinking so much about, "What vision should I devote my life to?" It's, "I need to get a job." I had some funds fortunately, but I need to get a job financially just for my own sense of self and sense of self-worth. So I got a temporary job as a financial analyst for an aviation services company in Maryland where we lived. My wife's from America. And so after the company went under, I felt like we needed to move somewhere other than Australia where I was so well known.
So this temporary job turned into a permanent job, where I worked for a number of years. And in 2003, there was a real turning point in my life. One of the things that was key to me bouncing back from my failed takeover, as I've mentioned in other podcasts in the series and elsewhere is faith. And my faith in Christ is hugely important to me. So in 2003, I felt like God telling me that I was playing small. And it's not so much that what I was doing was beneath me, but that I wasn't using all my skills and abilities for his purposes, for the kingdom, from a spiritual perspective. So I went to a woman that was an expert in mid-career assessments, and she was an executive coach herself, and she said that I had an ideal profile to be an executive coach. So I looked into that, I became a certified international coach, federation coach, and I began to find my leadership voice. If you'd asked me in the early '90s, do I have a leadership voice, I would've said I couldn't lead my way out of a paper bag.
Gary Schneeberger:
I want to stop you there. I've never asked you this question, and this is a perfect point to ask you, because you just walked us through the emotional ... You used the words, "it was emotionally and financially devastating, the failure of the takeover." What did that feel like when you found your leadership voice? I don't think I've ever asked you that question. What was that like? Because people who are hearing this, they're bouncing back from a crucible. They're trying to cast a vision, and you just got the first little bits of fairy dust that indicated that there is a vision there. What did that feel like, if you can remember that moment?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's a good question. I spent a few years after 2003 taking courses, getting training to be a certified international coach federation coach. And so I would coach people both within my church and people I knew. And what I realized is I have some fair, if not good, degree of asking questions. I didn't know that at the time. Now, I had a lot of management and leadership experience, obviously a lot of management leadership failure if you will. With the Harvard MBA and working in Wall Street, I knew a fair amount about organizations and the pitfalls and the challenges, certainly more than enough to ask good questions. And so I would ask a question and they'd say, "That is a great point." It's like, "What do you mean a great point? I'm just asking a question. How can that be a great point?"
It might be as simple, but yet in some ways profound as saying, "So you've mentioned to a client all these things you want to do. I think from my perspective, devoted trying to do 15 things at once is typically not a good strategy. It's my philosophy, pick two or three and then focus on that at the moment." And so a great point. I'd say, "So what two or three things do you want to focus on?" So questions like that that aren't rocket science, but they're very helpful. And so just by the questions I was asking people saw that I had leadership ability. These were drops of grace to a dying man in the desert, like an oasis. And it was because of those questions, it was because of the people I was coaching that directly led to me being an elder at my church, which is a non-denominational, evangelical church, and being on the board of my kids' school, which is a Christian school.
It was because of the relationships with people I was coaching that people said, "Hey, I know this guy Warwick Fairfax, it'd be a great person to be on the board of our school, Annapolis Area Christian School." Or, "Warwick would be a good elder at our church," Bay Area Community Church in Annapolis, Maryland. But it was through coaching and people seeing something within me as somebody that had leadership advice. It was the beginnings of what I would come to see as my skill set, which is as we say on this podcast, is to be a reflective advisor. That was my skill set, that is my strength. But that came out of being an executive coach. That was a key step on the journey to me discovering my innate skills, the innate passion that I had to help people's vision become reality, to help people ... And that's a lot of the things I coached on was about vision, helping people's vision become reality. I was off-the-charts passionate about that, ironically. That's part of what I love to do, being a reflective advisor.
So being an executive coach and then being on an elder at my church on this board of my kids' school. The next step was in 2008 when the pastor of our church asked me to give a talk in church. And he was giving a sermon on the life of David who had been persecuted by King Saul. He was hiding in the cave of the Dulem, who was definitely a righteous person, falsely persecuted. He wanted a 10-minute sermon illustration. I said, "Well, look Greg. Greg St. Cyr, the lead pastor by church. "I don't feel like I was a righteous person falsely persecuted. I brought many of the troubles on myself. But fine, I'll do what I can."
I certainly didn't think back then of myself as Mr. Public Speaker. I'm more of a shy, reserved person by personality. So anyway, I gave some thoughts, and given it's a church, I thought that maybe lessons God had taught me. What was amazing is that weeks and months after people came up to me and said, "Warwick, what you said really helped me." And I thought to myself, "Well, how many former media moguls are there in the congregation?" It's like if you had a former media mogul self-help group, it'd be self-help group of one. "My name is Warwick. I've lost $2 billion in a media company." "Oh. Thank you, Warwick."
Gary Schneeberger:
You have to talk to yourself to make that happen.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I've never met anybody like me in that sense, who made the mistakes or gone through what I've gone through. Anyway, so the fact that people said what I said could help them, that led me to writing my book, Crucible Leadership, Embrace Your Trials to Lead a Life of Significance. That book then led to speaking, writing blogs, posting on social media, thoughts about related to Beyond The Crucible, and also led me to starting this podcast with you, Gary, Beyond The Crucible. That all happened from that moment in 2008. And what I love about what I do now is that it truly is my vision. I have a crystal clear vision that I'm off-the-charts passionate about to help people bounce back from their worst day to lead a life of significance. That's what we do here. And it's my vision, it's not a vision I inherited. And I just love having a team of people, a team of fellow travelers, including yourself, that I believe are all off-the-charts passionate about this vision that we're working, co-laboring together.
We have a fantastic team, and I feel blessed. Yes, you could say I founded it, but I believe this is our vision. I don't look at it as my vision. It's our vision. Yes, it's my vision, but it's beyond my vision, it's our vision. Faith is important to me. Every day I read scripture, I meditate through scripture memory. I want to say, "Lord, this is about you. This is about accomplishing your vision. It's not about me." I really try to keep my ego in check, which is a daily thing that all of us should spent time on that inner work. So I feel blessed, I'm off-the-charts passionate about this vision, and it's my vision. It's not somebody else's vision that I inherited, so I'm blessed. But it was a long journey to get here, it was not easy.
Gary Schneeberger:
And what's interesting about you saying that, because I just wrote a note in the side of my paper here ... Because you talked about at the beginning, and the research told us this at the beginning, that it's take small steps, take baby steps. And it occurs to me your story is the truth that all of us can wrap our arms around, and that's this. Small steps can lead to a lifelong journey, right? When you string those small steps together, suddenly your miles and miles, years and years, experiences and experiences down the road to that life of significance that you talk about. And I think that's just a beautiful example of what Beyond the Crucible stands for and what you've lived through to teach through Beyond the Crucible.
Warwick Fairfax:
So well said, Gary. I think one of the lessons is that you can never really know where your life is going to go and what one small step will lead to. In my case, I didn't even have the inklings of a vision when ... One part of the story I didn't mention I was sending out resumes. I was even dumbing my resume down. Somehow it seemed it's not good to-
Gary Schneeberger:
I think you're in a group of one on that front too. I think you're in a group of one on that front too.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's not good to inflate it, but somehow dumbing it down, there might not have been any mention of launching $2.25 billion takeover. At one point my title was Proprietor, is what they called me. Proprietor, John Fairfax Limited, or Fairfax Media Holdings, whatever it was called post takeover. But eventually that sending out resumes got nowhere. Even though I knew I was analytical, I knew there were things I could do, strategic planning, marketing strategy, but I couldn't get anywhere. So I went to a temp agency that found temporary jobs for financial analysts and accountants, and so they had me do something on Excel. Well, back in the day with my Chase Manhattan back days in New York, I was pretty good on Excel. And so-
Gary Schneeberger:
[inaudible 00:51:26] You could excel on Excel.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. "You do really good on Excel, you really got this stuff." "Well, great." So they found me a temporary job at Head Sports, which makes skis and tennis rackets, and I think it's an Austrian company, and I believe somewhere in Europe. But their headquarters at the time was in Maryland, and so they needed help for a few months with some budget work and stuff. So, "Okay, I could do that." And so that from there, then I pivoted to being able to get this job at this aviation services company. But at the time, it felt like a very small step. Here I am with a Harvard MBA and Oxford degree, and I'm going to this temp agency to find any kind of a job doing something using my skills. So it was very humbling, had to put my ego in check. But could I have possibly have known that first temp job for Head Sports, or even before that walking in the door of this temp agency would lead to Beyond the Crucible?
How could I possibly know? What's the link? There are no logical links between that vision and the other like, "Oh. Well, I can see how getting that job at that temp agency gave you the skills to found Beyond the Crucible. That makes total sense." No, it doesn't make any sense at all, other than one step led to another, led to another, led to me becoming a coach. Now you're beginning to see some more logical steps that led to Beyond the Crucible. But the key lesson for all of us is, what's that next step? And it might be, "I need to get a job somewhere. I need to go to a temp agency." It's less about how good is that small step? But do something that you feel like is the next right step, even if you don't quite know how that's going to arrive at your dream job, your dream vision. Trust yourself. Trust the process. Trust your gut instinct. That I think is really critical, especially in those early days when you feel like you're in the pit of despair.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Folks, I do this a lot with guests on the show who have gone through a crucible and then they're the other side and they found their life in significance. I ask you to watch a clip or watch the show on YouTube, and just watch their faces as they talk about what they're doing now. And you can see that the moving beyond their crucible is reflected in their visage. Watch the host who I'm talking to right here, as he talks about what he's talked about. When he's talking about the failure of the takeover, he's not looking like the happiest guy in the room. But when he's finishing up just now what he just said, he's alive, he's happy. He's not just comfortable. He's in his own skin doing his own thing, and that's a beautiful thing to behold. He also is off-the-charts passionate about this subject, because you set a toe or two into the last question I'm going to ask. That's one of the reasons I stopped you, because I didn't want you to steal my last question.
Warwick Fairfax:
All good.
Gary Schneeberger:
Because you get too far off the charts of our run of show here. We've covered a lot of ground work. What's the one takeaway that you would offer our listeners and viewers from this episode, because there's a lot of good stuff here. Drill it down to one takeaway they can take with them.
Warwick Fairfax:
When you've been through a crucible, it's easy to feel that your life is over. You might feel worthless. That might be because you feel like what you've done is reprehensible, maybe unforgivable. Or maybe you feel like what was done to you is reprehensible or unforgivable. Either way it's very common when you're in the pit of despair just to feel worthless, to feel like there's no hope. You just want to hide. You just don't want anybody to look at you or see you. You may feel that you have absolutely nothing to offer anyone. You just want to escape, you want nobody to see you. And you might have no real clue about what your future vision could be. You might be, as I was in a sense, not maybe so much in terms of putting a roof over the head and food on the table, but you might feel like you're in survival mode.
It might be literally survival, or it may be emotionally, spiritually, you might feel just so down, just getting through the next day, getting through today feels like a Herculean achievement. So the key is really, and I touched on this, is to think about one small step. What one small step can I take? What's interesting is many of the guests, if not most, that we've had on this podcast have had that motion, what one small step. And I'd say most if not all of the guests on this podcast have said to themselves or found that they can use the lessons they've learned from their crucible to help others, either help others avoid what they went through or help others who have been through what they've been through often. And one of the things we say on this podcast is, "Your crucible didn't happen to you. It happened for you."
That's a key mindset. We talk about this a lot. How can this crucible have happened for you? What is the blessing that can come out of this crucible for others? You start asking yourself these profound questions, which you may not get answers to overnight. But, "What's one small baby step that I can take to really helping this crucible help others? What's the purpose amidst the pain?" to use that oft-used phrase. Because when you feel like, "I'm using what I went through to help others," that fuels energy, momentum drops of grace that gives you energy to actually come out of the covers that gives you energy not to hide. So those small steps as you feel like, especially steps when you're using what you've been through to help others. It might be just one person, a friend, a neighbor, a family member, a coworker. It's absolutely huge.
So just think about that one small step, because that one small step can lead to another and another that eventually will lead you to a vision that you're off-the-charts passionate about. One that truly leads to your unique life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. And I can tell you so much joy and gratitude comes when you're using everything you are for some sacred calling that's beyond yourself, that in some way helps others. Irrespective of the size of that vision, how others look at it. It just gives you immense joy and gratitude when you're using what you've been through and everything that you are to help others. That's a vision worth living for. That's a vision that you will be off- the-charts passionate about. That's a vision worth giving your life to.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, if you're watching on YouTube, rewind the last minute or two of this conversation. If you need to wrap your arms around what off-the-charts passion looks like, you just saw Warwick do it. If you're listening on a podcast app, you heard it. Rewind it and play it, that's what it sounds like. And that's a perfect place to end our conversation this week, Warwick. Folks, this is just the sixth actionable truth that we'll be discussing in depth this year. Each month we'll take a look at a new one, except next month. We will be back, as I said at the start, on September 23rd. We have a summer series coming up. You'll like it. We'll tell you more about it soon. But on September 23rd, we'll pick back up and we'll pick back up with our seventh actionable truth. And Scott, hopefully you're still with us. You haven't nodded off or Warwick and I bored you. I hope that didn't happen, but I'm going to need maybe a louder drum than usual, because it has to hold folks until September.
But give me a drum roll and I'll reveal what we're going to talk about next time on September 23rd. Bravo, well done. We will talk about in depth what Warwick mentioned a bit today, and that is fellow travelers on September 23rd. So until the next time we're together, folks, please remember this. We want you to believe the truths that we talk about. But just as importantly, if not a tick, more importantly, we want you to act on them, because that's what's going to help you move along the roadmap from trial to triumph. And we will see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like "the Helper" or "the Individualist." Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
The Power of Humbler Leadership: Josh Wymore
Josh Wymore, our guest this week, was striking out as a leader as an assistant coach of a women’s softball team — until a more seasoned coach gave him counsel that changed the trajectory of not just his leadership, but his life. Wymore was trying to lead the ladies thinking he had to have, and provide, all the answers.
What the more experienced coach taught him set him on the path of embracing, researching and writing about HUMBLER LEADERSHIP, the title of his book we talk about this week.
The lessons he lays out can not only unlock humility in your leadership, it can help you avoid and overcome crucibles, too.
To learn more about John Wymore, visit joshwymore.com
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Josh Wymore:
As I reflected on it later, I realized it was really Brad's humility that enabled him to speak so candidly and directly with me because I could tell that Brad was in front of me, not just because I was being a pain in his butt, but because he actually loved me and wanted what was best for me. And that conversation was really about me, about me becoming more of who I was made to be. And because I could tell he cared about me, I invited him into my life and let him speak truth to me in ways that I would not allow other people to.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's our guest this week, Josh Wymore, discussing how he learned a valuable leadership lesson that helped him overcome a crucible when his attempt to coach a woman's softball team failed because he thought, as a leader, he had to have and provide all the answers. What Brad, a more senior coach taught him, set him on the path of embracing, researching and writing about humbler leadership, the title of his book we talk about this week. The lessons he lays out can not only unlock humility in your leadership, they can help you avoid and overcome crucibles.
Warwick Fairfax:
Josh, it's wonderful to have you here. We actually met at the Taylor University event, which from what you mentioned, you did a grad degree there, and I know your father-in-law, Kent Yost, and he introduced us at that Taylor event. Gosh, was it a couple of months ago or was not too long ago. And you mentioned that you do a lot of work with humility, which is one of my highest values. And then we chatted and read your book, Humbler Leadership, which I loved.
So just to tell folks a little bit about you, Josh Wymore has a PhD and he's really an expert in helping high-performing leaders become more focused and productive, healthy and balanced, decisive and skilled, all very important things. He delves into things such as inspiration, application, transformation. He's a speaker, works with Fortune 500 leaders around the world, consults, coaches, also an international coach, federation coach, which I am too. So we share that in common. Very qualified on the subject of humility, which as we'll get into, I certainly have a lot of passion about.
Josh Wymore:
Could you tell my father-in-law all the things you just mentioned here? That would be helpful.
Warwick Fairfax:
There you go. Josh is worthy of response.
Josh Wymore:
That's for you. Kent Yoast. Just kidding. That's good.
Warwick Fairfax:
There you go. Indeed. Where I want to start really is, before we get into the book, and some of this you actually have in the book, but you've got a couple of crucible stories. And one fascinating one is the one about softball. I like too, in the book, how you, in a very humble manner, say that from your own perspective, you don't view yourself as a naturally humble person. I don't know if anybody comes out of the gate... When kids are small babies and toddlers, they're not typically humble, like, oh, please take as long as you want mom or dad to feed me. I'm good, right? Take your time. I feel like I need to be changed, but look, you've had such a hard day, just whenever.
So I don't know if anybody's naturally humble. So talk about just that whole softball incident because it's really, it's sort of a vignette about maybe some of the beginnings of learning the value of humble leadership. So just for folks who are listening and watching, talk about that whole softball incident.
Josh Wymore:
It was an interesting situation. I was a college sophomore and hired to be our university's assistant softball coach with the wild qualifications of having two half seasons of high school baseball under my belt. So it's terribly under qualified, but as is the case at a lot of small nonprofits, if you are a warm body and you're willing to do the work of a paid professional for a fraction of the price, then you can get hired. So that's what I did.
But going into that first season, I was trying to think through, why in the world would these women who've been playing this sport since they're four or five years old, why would they listen to some 18, 19-year-old kid? And as I thought about my paradigm of leadership, my conclusion was people don't follow leaders who aren't confident. If it seems like though I really know what I'm doing and I really believe in myself, then they'll believe me too and they'll follow me.
And so that's what I decided to do, it was just I'm going to be really confident. And to my shock, that actually did not work very well at all. These women had a very strong BS detector. And so whenever I would try and convince them to run a drill one way, and they'd have some ideas about how to do it differently, they would come over to offer some suggestions, maybe graciously, maybe not graciously, but either way, in my mind, the leader is the person who has all the answers. And so I can't afford to be wrong, otherwise why would they be following me? And so every time they had a suggestion, I had to mansplain why my way was better than their way. And shocker, it did not go over very well.
Gary Schneeberger:
Really? That is indeed shock.
Josh Wymore:
I don't know if you know any women, Gary, but they tend to not care for the condescending explanation.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yes, indeed.
Josh Wymore:
So we just had an emotionally exhausting season. We were terrible. I think we were like 14 and 27 or something that year. There's so much drama on the team. I'm in the middle of it and every day I'm fighting for my life. And I almost didn't come back the next year because it was so emotionally exhausting, but I didn't know any other way to lead. And that's when my life changed is,, we hired a new coach, coach Brad that second year, and he led with humility. He was open to being wrong, he was open to other people's ideas, and I kept waiting for that to crash and burn. But to my shock, it actually worked out really, really well. And I talk in the book about the instance where I interacted with him and my perspective changed.
I know I've been talking for a while now, so I'll slow down. But that was that catalyst moment for me of taking humility seriously.
Warwick Fairfax:
So talk about what this new coach Brad taught you and how that just transformed your whole perspective on leadership really, and why humility actually could work?
Josh Wymore:
He asked me to stay after practice one day to talk. And so I sat down in this dusty first base dug out, and he started asking me some questions about this player that I've been butting heads with. And as soon as he started in, as soon as he said her name, I knew, oh, this is a confrontation. And so my defensive walls are kind of activated, ready to come up, and yet as he talks, as he asks questions, as he challenges me, those walls just stay down. And I'm observing myself in this befuddled state like, what's going on here? He's basically telling me that I'm being a jerk. I need to grow up and take responsibility, and I'm not only listening to him, I'm going to hug the guy at the end of this conversation. What is this Jedi mind trick that he's pulling on me? I've got to figure out how to do this.
And as I reflected on it later, I realized it was really Brad's humility that enabled him to speak so candidly and directly with me. I could tell that Brad was confronting me, not just because I was being a pain in his butt, but because he actually loved me and wanted what was best for me. And that conversation was really about me, about me becoming more of who I was made to be. And because I could tell he cared about me, I invited him into my life and let him speak truth to me in ways that I would not allow other people to.
And so what I realized in that moment is he's got some tools in his leadership tool belt I don't have, and I need that because I know how my softball day-to-day is going, it is not going well. And so I began to experiment with that approach with my softball ladies on a day-to-day basis. And it totally changed the direction of our season.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it actually worked. I think you write in the book, they were kind of almost dumbstruck when you tried this humility approach. And it's like, so do you have any suggestions? You've probably been playing softball since you were four or five years old. Maybe you might know something. You didn't say it that way, but that was in your head then?
Josh Wymore:
Right. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
They actually had some ideas and you said, well, next practice, why don't we try that? They were like, say, what? Is this, Josh?
Josh Wymore:
Yeah. They probably thought invasion of the body snatchers or something had happened because I'd never given them a whiff that they could possibly be right about anything, right? Because again, I have to be right. It was really that, driven by insecurity that I was operating that way. So it was delightful and so much less stressful, and we got so much better. Things went so much better because we had access to everybody's wisdom, not just my very limited insight.
Warwick Fairfax:
So there's another incident that I think was really formative in your really learning more about humility and leadership. And I think you were out in the work world and somebody I think got promoted, not you. And so just talk about that whole incident. How you had your boss's boss, really, there was an incident. Let's do the lead up before then. But that whole episode, it was also transformational in terms of your thinking about leadership and humility, and yourself.
Josh Wymore:
This is probably ten years ago now. I was working on a team, me and two other colleagues that were all at the same level, working really well together as this team of three, tapping into each other's strengths and getting things done together. And I left on a vacation, and when I came back, one of the other two people had been promoted to be my boss, which I did not see coming at all. And so I was a little wounded by that, that I've just basically demoted relative to the people I've been reporting to, but tried to make the best of it, tried to still work together and instantly got shut out of the decision making process, which was very different than it had been before. And that was humiliating and just adding insult to injury, this particular person was a great visionary person, incredible ideas, but really struggled with execution.
And as I was isolated, stuff just started to fall by the wayside or poor decisions were made and they're impacting my team, and so I'm going to bat for them. I'm also carrying this righteous sword of like, no, we're going to keep our word. We're going to follow through on what we said we're going to do. And I'm trying to hold him accountable to everything he's saying and calling him out in meetings. So then co-workers and my boss are coming after me because I'm being adversarial. And it got to this spot where I felt like, okay, I'm either going to have a mental breakdown or I'm going to quit, or I've got to change direction. Something's got to give.
And that this moment came where I was sitting down with my boss's boss's boss, I think at this time, who had been a mentor for a long time, and he was confronting me about a time where I'd been given a directive and I hadn't done what I was supposed to do. And I said, yeah... His name is Doug. "Yeah, Doug, I probably shouldn't have done that." And he slammed his fist on the table, he's a Christian Guy. He's like, "No," pardon my French. "Damn it, Josh. You definitely shouldn't have done that. You have a submission problem."
And he said that and I just sat back in my chair and I thought about it for a second. I realized, yeah, you're right. I do have a problem with this. I need to figure this out. And so I spent probably a month or six weeks just reading everything the Bible had to say about submission. And I realized, yeah, I do have a submission problem. I think I submit, but really I just do the things that I agree with that the bosses I respect tell me to do. That's not actually submission.
Warwick Fairfax:
Right.
Josh Wymore:
And so reading what the Bible had to say, it was not pretty. It's not popular in today's world at all. But what I realized was, my job was to, if I'm in a meeting with my leaders and they announce a direction, it's my job to say, "Hey, listen, I have some concerns about that. Here's what I think could go wrong. At the end of the day though, you're the boss. If you tell me to do this, I'm going to do my best to make you look good. And when we walk out of this room, no one's going to know that I thought this was a bad idea. I've got your back."
And so I started doing that and I noticed two things right away. The first was that my stress just disappeared because I wasn't trying to control something that I was not responsible for anymore. It's my boss's job to supervise my boss or my boss's boss's job. If my boss makes a terrible decision, those are his consequences he has to deal with, and that's not on me, and I can let this stuff go. And so mental health instantly improved.
And the other thing I noticed in about six months is that that guy was out the door because I stopped running interference for his bad decisions and people around him started to realize, oh wow, this stuff is actually not working very well. Nothing's getting done. We're not thinking this stuff through. And about a year later, I ended up actually accepting that position, and it went so much better than it would have had I been given it a year before when I hadn't learned submission. And so being pushed to the brink of like, I'm either going to go crazy or I'm going to change, that was such a gift for me at that age to learn just the need to be less of a maverick and more submissive as a leader.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I want to jump in here because what you just talked about is something that I've first learned as someone who worked for other people, and then I applied it to my leadership. And that is, you have to get comfortable. You have to be comfortable with the difference between being heard and being heeded. I had to learn that myself. I would say something and people would go, yup, and then the boss would make his own decision. And I'd be like, "Well, wait a minute. Why? Wasn't my advice any good?" Well, no, it was that I was heard, but they had other inputs. They have opinions, they have background. They're going to go in a different direction. I was heard, but I wasn't heeded.
And that's what I tried to do in my own leadership, humbly to say, yes, I'll always hear what you have to say, but not all the time are you going to be heeded. And it sounds like what you learned in that moment was the difference between those two things that you could say something in the end of the day. To quote President George W. Bush, you weren't the decider, somebody else was the decider. You were the advisor and you got comfortable with that. I think that was one of the things that propelled your change, right?
Josh Wymore:
Yeah. And it's hard, right? Because again, being heard but not heeded is, it's reminding you of your place, right? You are not the master of this universe. And that was a hard lesson for me to learn, but it was very valuable.
Warwick Fairfax:
I want to shift to some of the themes in your book, but just as we're doing that, it would seem just overall, if you have a humble nature, look at yourself in humility and we'll get into self-awareness. A lot of the things you have in your book. That all things being equal, things actually might work out better. Instead of newsflash people like working for a humble leader, not a know-it-all arrogant leader. It's actually more effective. Who knew, right?
Josh Wymore:
Yeah. Almost like God's principles for life work out in the end. It's this crazy idea.
Warwick Fairfax:
Let's talk a bit about your book. And I love just the whole concept of humble leadership. It was just amazing. So you talk, really in the introduction about Nelson Mandela and just the great story of how he had just a humble approach to leadership rather than as somebody that was in the infamous Robben Island prison for decades. He could have been like, it's payback time now that the white Africanas are out of power. So talk about how... There's a reason you put that in the introduction. Why is Mandela just somebody that we should learn something from in terms of how he led from a humble leadership perspective?
Josh Wymore:
I think it stuck with me just thinking about our political climate in the US today. I don't know what it's like in Australia now, but it feels like we bounce back and forth between our two dominant parties. And once you get in office, it's like, all right, now it's my time to undo everything that people before me did and to stick it to them. It's not a approach that really warms the heart or wins the affection of your opponents. And that's just normal politics.
Mandela was unjustly imprisoned for two and a half decades. So if anybody could have gotten a pass for that, it would've been him. And frankly, if his goal was just to justify himself, that would've been the right call. But he had this bigger goal of healing a country. And if you're going to heal a country, you can't do things by the typical playbook. He had to have these truth and reconciliation healings. He had to forgive his oppressors. And for him to achieve his goal, it took an incredible amount of humility. And I think it is just inspiring for me as someone that... Everybody has some of that retaliatory, I'll stick it to you, I'll show you. But for him to lay that down and put his country first, there's a reason that South Africa has healed as much as it has and is thriving as much as it is today.
Warwick Fairfax:
So well said. You write a lot in this book, just as we begin, about how embracing humility leads to greater purpose and performance and how it's the foundation of great leadership, which I couldn't agree with more. So there are so many good things in here. You've got some great comments by other leaders, humble leaders that admit mistakes. Probably a good place to start because there's so many good things is, you have this definition of leadership. I've never quite seen that way, but it makes so much sense. You talk about really the four cornerstones, if you will, the four elements of leadership, of humble leadership, I should say. Accurate self-perception, appreciating others' strengths and contributions, a growth mindset and greater purpose.
Now, as you're an expert on humility. As an amateur student, perhaps myself, they make abundant sense to me. So just talk about why those four elements are so key. It's really one of the foundational cornerstones of your book. Those four elements, just talk about them and why they're so important.
Josh Wymore:
Coming to this topic from a Christian perspective, I had our definition of, well, humility is being like Jesus. It's putting others first, that kind of stuff. But the audience for this book really are people who do not have any kind of faith, because as I left Christian higher ed where I'd worked for about 10 years and I'm coming to the marketplace, I realized that a lot of the leaders I'm coaching or training, they don't have this common assumption that humility is the right approach. And so I could think of plenty of Christian books, faith-driven books on humility, but nothing from just a pure research perspective. And so I thought, if I'm going to win these folks over, it's going to be from research and data because that's the Bible in the marketplace is what are the data set.
And so I started by going to research just to see in the two decades since Jim Collins wrote Good to Great, there's been this explosion on the research on humility. What do the research say on this topic? And pretty consistently, they sort of coalesce around those four elements.
And so the first is an accurate self-perception, and I think this is in contrast to how we typically see humility. I think we often think of humility as a low view of ourselves. Oh no, not me. I don't have anything to offer, but that's just not true. The root of the word humility is humus, which is the same word we have for earth or ground. And so when you say that guy's really down to earth, or he's really grounded, or he's got really both feet planted firmly on the ground, what we're saying is he's living in reality. And that's what humble leaders do. They acknowledge their weaknesses for sure, but they also recognize their strengths and they're not timid to step up and exercise those. And I'll get to this in the greater purpose part. They're not exercising it to draw attention to themselves or to stoke their ego. They're doing it to contribute to a greater purpose.
So that's the first one, that accurate self-perception. And that naturally dovetails into the second, which is appreciating other's strengths and contributions. And because when I recognize how limited I am, I recognize how much I need you and your unique contributions to the team. I recognize that I'm a part of a larger body and my hand doesn't root against the foot and need to gain attention. We all need each other to be thriving. And so as one of my friends, Davin Savonio says, "These humble leaders, instead of needing to be in the spotlight all the time, they like to be the spotlight for others and highlight the good things other people are doing."
The third one kind of folds out of those two, that growth mindset. Recognizing I'm limited, but I can grow. I'm not focused on just performing all the time and proving myself, but rather improving myself. Constantly looking to get better and to take feedback and recognizing we're all in this journey at different stages of the journey, but we're all in this journey towards maturation.
And then the last piece is a greater purpose. As Rick Warren says, "Humility is not thinking less of myself, but thinking about myself less." And so when I show up with my strengths, for instance, it's not because again, I need the attention or because I'm insecure because you just did something great, so I've got to one up you. It's stepping back and thinking, what does the team need from me and how can I add value? Would be silly of me if I have this gift of public speaking to not step up and speak on behalf of the team, so I'm going to do that, or whatever it might be.
That greater purpose is really the catalyst that takes people from just being merely modest to being humble leaders, because the greater purpose is the reason that I would challenge you if you said something that was out of line, not because it makes me feel good to demean you, or because I have something against you, but man, I don't want to call you out on this, but if I don't, you're going to struggle. Our team's going to struggle, our culture's going to struggle. So shoot, I got to have an awkward conversation.
That's what Brad did for me in that coaching conversation in the dugout. He took time out of his day to sit down with me because his greater purpose was connecting with me, investing in me, seeing our team thrive. And for all those reasons, he needed to have a very intentional conversation with me.
Warwick Fairfax:
What you're saying is so profound is that we can think of people who are humble. Oh, they must be think bad about themselves. Oh, I'm hopeless. And not to get into this, but John Dixon, as we talked previously in his book, Humilitas, talks about, in the Greek and Roman world at the time, the only word was like humiliation. Humility, at least in their culture, didn't exist. And so we can often think of, oh, people who are humble, it's kind of like, people who are humiliated. It's kind of the same thing, which obviously it's not. But this idea that you can be humble yet ambitious in a sense, not so much about yourself, but have a higher purpose that you want everybody to achieve. So as you say, challenge people in the best sense of that word.
And you talk later about asking questions. In my own way, actually, I try to do some of this. So when I'm not writing and podcasting and all, an elder at my non-dominational evangelical church, and I was on the board for a lot of years in my kid's school, which is a Christian school, and my typical language is asking questions. It's kind of how I'm wired. So if I think something needs to be said, I'll say, well, hang on, I have a question on that. So how does this relate to the mission of the church and the school? Maybe the links are there. I'm not quite seeing it. Rather than saying this is stupid, which I'm a diplomat by nature, I will ask a question.
Or on the other side, which really had not a whole lot to do with humility, if somebody does something incredible, typically at a board level, they'll sit there and think, this staff member is doing great, but they'll say nothing. And I'll be the one to say, man, that is so good. And I'll be very specific about, it's almost like, in some of these venues, if I don't say anything, it's like, well, we figured you'd say something because you are the one who's meant to say something encouraging, and that probably has nothing to do with humility, but anyway. But to your point is, I think it's just so important is a humble person can challenge, but in a humble way, right?
Josh Wymore:
That's right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And asking, it doesn't have to be asking question, but one of the things I think of, and I'm not perfect at it is, state your point, but let go of the outcome. People may not listen to it. I've had times when I've been off the charts passionate about something and either of those two boards, if you will. And it's like, I hear what you're saying all right but not really. And I've had to just let it go.
With somebody that's underneath the surface, I'm a very passionate person with a lot of convictions. I was like, okay, let go, let God, as they say. But that's humble leadership, right? You're not always going to be seen as right?
Gary Schneeberger:
Yep. You've been heard and not heeded.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. Not easy, not easy... But such great points. So a lot of interesting things in here. So one of the things you talk about was individuals who scored higher on a humility assessment and you got a bunch of stats, they experienced 57 percent fewer depressive symptoms, 64 percent less anxiety, 73 percent more happiness, 56 percent greater life satisfaction.
Why wouldn't you want to be humble? It's like, do you want to be less depressed, less anxious, more happy, greater life satisfaction? Actually, no, I'm good.
Josh Wymore:
Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
So just talk a bit, because I mean, did that surprise you when you saw that research? So what did you think of all that when you saw all that?
Josh Wymore:
I was surprised at how broad it was and how significant those results were. That was a survey by Neil Kraus from the University of Michigan, and digging into that, what are the mechanics there of why you would be more peaceful. Specifically, he looked at people who just had adverse life events, so they found out they got cancer or a spouse passed away or something like that. And those were the situations in which they had more levity, more peace, more perspective.
And as I've come to understand humility, it makes sense that if I'm not trying to control things I can't control, if I don't think I always have to have it all together, if I'm serving a purpose beyond myself and beyond my self-preservation, then it makes sense that I would be willing to take some of these things as learning opportunities. To not be stressed trying to manipulate things that I have no influence over. Because I see myself accurately in the universe, I'm able to let go of the things that most of us spend our times trying to control that we have no control over. So there's probably a lot of dynamics going on there.
But to your point, why would you not want to do that? It seems like humility is this life and leadership secret that's not a secret. That's just hiding right here in plain sight.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's also, as you just said, it's a secret for how you come back from crucibles, which is the purpose of why we're talking-
Josh Wymore:
That's right.
Gary Schneeberger:
Is the purpose of the podcast. What you just said, they had significant life setbacks and all of those positive outcomes come from humility. Humility, not an inoculation against crucibles, but it certainly is something that helps you get through them, right?
Josh Wymore:
That's right.
Gary Schneeberger:
I've got to believe that's absolutely true.
Josh Wymore:
That's true. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's actually a good point, very good point, Gary, because when you have a crucible, it can be your fault or maybe it was somebody else's fault or maybe an injury or a natural disaster. There are all sorts of things, but certainly in the category, when it's your fault, and we talk about, just in our own models, just self-reflection and having an accurate appraisal. What went wrong? What was my part in it? What can I learn? How can I be better and not make the same mistakes? How can I have people around me? Maybe they have skills and abilities that I don't have, so maybe I'll stop trying to do it all.
But coming back from a crucible, if you don't have humility, there's that phrase, history tends to repeat itself. People don't have humility to learn. Most national leaders, historical leaders tend not to be humble. There are a few that are, and one of the things that my book, Crucible Leadership, it's not really a book on humility, but it talks a lot about leadership. I think of Abraham Lincoln, who when U.S historians survey amongst themselves, who was the greatest president, they always name Lincoln as number one. They do this survey every three or four years or so. And at least from my perspective, one of the reasons he was so great was the greatness of his character. And a key part of that was clearly he had a very high purpose to unite the nation and rid the nation of slavery, but he was so humble that he was like bulletproof.
I think there was one incident that I remember, it was in a book by Doris Kearns Goodwin, Team of Rivals, which is phenomenal book actually on leadership and also humility, funnily enough. And there was one incident where somebody said, well, I spoke to the Secretary of War, as you used to call the defense secretary back then. And he said that you're an idiot, Mr. Lincoln. He's saying directly to Lincoln's face. Back in the day, it was a little easier to talk to your leaders. And he said, well, you may well be right. Just tell me specifically where, because I'd like to understand, rather than saying, how dare you call me an idiot? And it's time to fire that secretary of war for saying. So you could tell him anything, and he was bulletproof. You may agree or disagree.
Josh Wymore:
My favorite quip was someone said something like, I'm going to paraphrase this, like Mr. Lincoln, you are two-faced. And he said, sir, if I had two faces, do you think I would choose to wear this one? Man, what a great zinger, right?
But to your point, when you're not wasting energy, protecting your image, protecting your ego, having to prove that you're right all the time, how much more energy can you devote to learning from mistakes, bouncing back from setbacks, building teams? Because we're all finite people. If we're spending that time building those barriers, that's time and energy we're not spending doing other things.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's so true. So you mentioned before that wisdom, this concept of wisdom around humility has been around a long time, and obviously we're familiar with the Christian faith of, in a sense, Jesus humbling himself to the cross, and he was exceptionally humble, a carpenter. But you mentioned, just from different religions, Buddhism, Confucianism, Islam, Stoicism, different spiritual ways of thought. So just talk about how this concept of humility, it really is what the business books these days call, the ancient wisdom. It's been there for thousands of years. And talk about how maybe we've forgotten it, but it's not a new concept, what you're really promoting and championing.
Josh Wymore:
I think every generation has a way of rediscovering truth in their own context and in their own language. And so if this is true, we would expect to not just see it in any one religion. We would expect to see that it would actually work in practice as research shows that it does. And so, one of the questions I've had a lot of discussion with other Christians is, is it possible to be humble if you're not a Christian? Basically, do Christians have exclusive access to humility? And it's like, well, obviously being a Christian doesn't make you humble because I know plenty of arrogant Christians, and fortunately by the grace of God, there are lots of other folks who can be humble, I believe. Even if they have different religion or no religion at all. Just think about how miserable world it would be if no one else was humble. So I think that's a gift that different faith traditions have stumbled upon this universal truth, and hopefully we can all practice it better.
Warwick Fairfax:
So talk a bit about the do-become flywheel, and I think it's in that section, the whole cathexis, and I won't describe because I'll let you do that. But just talk about do-become, because there's a lot of folks, maybe everybody, that's... Let me ask you a question. Do you think anybody's actually born humble or is it nature, nurture? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Josh Wymore:
I think there is a nature nurture aspect to it because Brad, I asked Brad point-blank, just probably a couple of years ago, what are you doing, Brad, to become humble? And he is just like, I mean, I'm not really thinking about it that much. And he's a very humble guy, and I think some of that's his disposition. Some of it is other things he's doing that are indirectly creating that humility. The time he spends praying, and with his family and that kind of stuff. So I do think some people, because of their hard-wiring, because of their upbringing are more disposed to humility than others, but for all of us, regardless of where you are on that continuum, my book's called Humbler Leadership because I believe all of us can become humbler. All of us can take a step towards that perfect humility that we'll never achieve.
And the way of doing that is not by crossing your fingers and hoping that you get it. It's not by praying for it, although that's not going to hurt. It's not even just by reading a book on humility, no matter how good that book is. It's doing the things that humble leaders do. As you do those things, the things we do, do something to us. And so if I spend seven hours a day shopping online, I'm going to become more materialistic. If I spend 10 hours a week reading Men's Health and Cosmopolitan, I'm going to become more image oriented. It's just going to happen.
In the same way, if I spend half of a meeting asking questions of my team, I'm going to accidentally learn some stuff. Even if I'm just going through the motions, I'm going to realize, oh wow, I didn't think about that. Maybe these people aren't idiots like I thought they were, right? And so I start to reinforce this. I see the benefits of it. I get better at the skill, it becomes more natural for me, and within a few months or a few years, I'm asking questions because that has become my nature. And so that's one of the messages of the book is that for you to become humble or humbler, you don't have to get zapped by a bolt of lightning. You don't have to get different parents. Just trust me. Do the things that research has shown for a long time to actually produce humility. And over time you will become humbler.
Warwick Fairfax:
And I like what you said about catexis, which is consistency and intensity. You could be consistent in doing not a whole lot... Something like, to pick tennis, you could practice the wrong stroke the wrong way every day, it'll get nowhere. You could practice the right stroke one day a year, you'll get no, you need consistency and intensity. That just seemed a profound point in terms of this whole do-become, and through research you can understand that.
One of the other really interesting things in here is, you talk about, I think a study, I think in the '80s by McCall, Lombardo, Harrison, and just the whole notion of formal learning, social learning, experiential. In most cases, in school, you've got here the stats. 70 percent of our time is typically invested in formal learning like exams and tests, 20 percent social learning, learning from the boss, 10 percent experiential, volunteering, internships. But the stats were so different in the study in terms of successful executives. So talk about how those stats were reversed and executives were really successful because this was mind-blowing to me.
Josh Wymore:
The basic idea is we don't arrive on earth as blank slates, but we obviously don't know a ton. And so, so much of our time is just spent downloading information into our brain, understanding how to do basic mathematics, understanding how to conjugate a verb and all that kind of stuff. But once you have that base level formal knowledge, at some point more formal knowledge doesn't really accelerate you in the same way. You see that the growth curve for most sports, if you play pickleball tomorrow, you've never played pickleball, you're going to be terrible the first time you play, but by the end of the first 90 minutes, you will have gotten a lot better. And then it starts to taper off slowly. That same way for most learning curves.
So most of your early life has been in that formal learning of just being told what to do, given frameworks for things. But then once you achieve that baseline understanding, it flips over where you start to really learn most from experience and from other people. And so this is why maybe the biggest predictor of your job success is who your boss is, how they invest in you or don't, how they lead you or don't.
The other big thing is the breadth of experience and depth of experience you can get. Are you cranking a nut on the assembly line every single day or are you involved in diverse projects with different stakeholders? That's how you really accelerate your learning once you get into the workforce. It's not that formal learning goes away, but it's less important than the actual on-the-job experience, the things you learn from your peers, the things you learn through reflection, all that sort of thing.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I think this point, especially the 70 percent experiential learning is so critical to what we do at Beyond the Crucible because we say all the time, one of our taglines, we said it hundreds if not more than a thousand times, your crucible didn't happen to you, it happened for you. And the idea behind that is that what you've gone through, trials, tragedies, setbacks, failures, those things can teach you lessons. And this research bears that out. Learning from good things that happen to you, great. Learning from things that are in the middle that happened to you, but learning from difficult things that happen to you, that's learning too. And that's that 70 percent of how we learn is experiential. I would think that is something that our listeners and viewers should grasp onto and say, hallelujah, I'm going to learn something from this. I'm not just going to endure it. I can learn to make my life better from what I've been through.
Josh Wymore:
That's right. And specifically within that, I would say, we don't learn from experience. We learn from reflecting on experience. And so, hey, it's great you experienced this thing and you could say, well, it's a learning moment, but it's only a learning moment if you make it a learning moment. If you stop and think, gosh, what can I have done differently here? Okay, how can I include this step in my process next time? So it's great that you experienced it. Now do the extra work of slowing down to journal about it, to process it, to write about it. That's the part that I see a lot of leaders skipping over because it feels like you're not making any progress, but it's that reflection where you really metabolize the experience, extract the nutrients from it, and it becomes part of you. Otherwise, it can just pass straight through you, to stick with that metaphor, and it just causes a big sink and doesn't really make you any better in the process.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a great point, Josh. It's interesting, as I reflect, I'm a naturally self-reflective person. That's how I came out of the gate. So that's a lot of things I'm bad at, but I like that a lot. But when I think about, well, why is humility... I mean, humility and integrity are two of my highest values. Why is humility such a higher value for me? And I'd say it was probably the experiential learning, crucible learning, if you will.
And we might've talked about this when we chatted at Taylor University, but as listeners know, I grew up in this very wealthy background in Australia and this 150-year-old family media business. And one of the things I say in my book, I grew up in the world of the authentic, I could have also said, I grew up in the world of the arrogant. And so we had cocktail parties, dinner parties with ambassadors, prime ministers, the odd visiting Hollywood people, business executives, and they were really telling each other about how brilliant they were and how incredible. And I was in Europe and I met Count so-and-so, or Princess, whoever, and I just hated it.
I just almost had this allergic reaction. And one of the other funny things is, Australia's a very egalitarian society, which is good in a lot of ways. And I went to a very good boys school. It was, I'm sure expensive. And so the other boys there, they were not sons of poverty-stricken people... Bankers, lawyers, stockbrokers. But because of this egalitarian thing in Australia, they would say, well, Warwick, you think you're better than us? Back then, I was a very shy, I still am to a degree, very shy person, would never have said anything to anybody about the money and the cars my dad had ever. So I gave no indication whatsoever that that was my thinking. I just wanted to hide, if you will.
And so it's like, that is just not me. So the combination of people, of how the kids, as kids say, you think you're better than us? Well, how many cars does your dad have? Or I probably stupidly answered the question because he loved cars. How much money and what did I know? But especially the arrogance of the people in those cocktail parties, it's like, I do not want to be like that. I don't want to think of myself as more highly than anybody else. I'm not better or worse than it. So if that experience, like a crucible forge infused, almost like in blowtorch level, this value of humility.
Doesn't mean I'm perfect, doesn't mean I don't have moments where I fall off the wagon, if you will. But the reason humility is such a strong value of mine is I grew up in a very non-humble background with arrogance. And it's just still to this day, I don't really enjoy being around people that are arrogant. People might feel like it's annoying. For me it's almost like an allergic reaction, just this visceral. I need to get out of here kind of reaction. So anyway, that's a bit about my story.
So you've got a lot of other fascinating things in here. The humility paradox. They're humble, but they know who they are. I think elsewhere you talk about the importance of being humble, but yet understanding your gift and strengths, which is just so... You can be humble, but you still realize there are areas that you're very good at. It's a bit of a growth opportunity for me.
Open-ended questions, active listening, invite others in. To me, one of the profound things about being a humble leader is knowing your strengths, but knowing the areas where you're not good at. I know for me, I hate selling. I have some idea about sales strategy, but I just can't do it. I just have a block. So Gary and others are a whole lot better at selling and promoting, and that's okay. Humble leaders know there are areas that they're not good at. It doesn't mean they're a bad person. They include people that are best. So talk a bit about just some of the things you talk about, the paradox and just inviting others in because that's what humble leaders do. It's probably why they're so successful.
Josh Wymore:
That's right. Again, if I'm not wasting my energy, protecting my ego and looking like I have it all together, then I can go hire people to fill those spots who are best in class at what I need them to do, and they can shine. I don't have to diminish their success, so I feel better by comparison. I can just be excited for their success. And so, go figure that we would work together better and that those people would want to stay around because they don't feel like their boss is threatened by them being successful. And so there's tons of research on how humble leaders build stronger teams because they're quick to admit mistakes and they have a growth mindset, and it's not about them and all those sorts of things.
Warwick Fairfax:
Really, towards the end of the book, you talk about purpose, which we talk a lot about here at Beyond The Crucible, and you can be humble, but yet you have a purpose that you're driving towards and you really say three things because often people say, well, I know what my purpose is. And you say there are three things, passions what you love, strengths, what you're good at, and the third, flourishing, what fosters peace. So talk about those three elements of finding purpose. A lot of people out there that they want their life to count, especially a lot of young people today, they want to make a difference. So talk about why purpose is important and how you find it.
Josh Wymore:
I think it's easy to maybe diagnose that if you only have one of the three. So if I'm really good at playing Call of Duty and I want that to be my purpose in life, well, okay. It's hard to imagine how that helps people or makes a difference in the world. Maybe that's just a hobby or a passion. I may really enjoy playing bass guitar, but I'm not great at it. Well, probably not where I should spend my life, or there may be things in the world that I care a lot about, but I just don't feel equipped to solve them. It's going to be hard to get traction there. And so if I could find the intersection of those three things, a place where... For me, for instance, I'm really passionate about connecting deeply with people and helping them become more of who they're made to be.
I think God's gifted me with some strengths in communication and connecting with them. And I know because I've seen it when people are listened to well, they can achieve some clarity, they go on to not just become better leaders, but better husbands and wives, mothers and fathers. Their kids do better in school because they have a different home environment. It just creates these ripple effects out into the world. And so the fact that I get to live and lead in a purposeful way every day is such a gift. Pinch myself all the time, waiting for it to disappear because it feels too good to be true, but that's the same joy that I hope everybody could have, figuring out how they make a difference that they're good at and that they enjoy every day.
Warwick Fairfax:
Just in the last couple of minutes we have, I understand that you're working on a new book?
Josh Wymore:
That's right.
Warwick Fairfax:
And maybe if you wouldn't, I know it's not out yet, but maybe a little bit of a teaser for people that this was going to be, I think a really interesting one because from what I understand, you wanted to answer the question of how come most people in the world stay basically the same over the course of their life? And there's a few that transform and the keys is having at a fundamental level, a sense of unconditional love and acceptance. So talk about just some of the themes in this book and why unconditional love and acceptance are key to just growing and evolving and transforming rather than just staying the same because this should be a really good book. So talk a bit about some of those things and why you wanted to write it.
Josh Wymore:
I wanted to understand why a couple of my clients were stuck and not making the same progress as others. What did I need to learn to help them be successful? And so I've spent about a year and a half now interviewing people who have gone through radical life transformations. People who attempted suicide to drug addiction, alcohol addiction, eating disorders, obesity, any kind of life change. And I've been looking for these common levers or common processes in their stories. And one of the most surprising findings has been that every one of these people who have really achieved a great state of transformation, they all had this experience of unconditional love and acceptance at the beginning of that process from a friend, a parent, even just a divine encounter with God. And as I'm digging into that, it seems like the reason that's so powerful is, it communicates the sense of value that you are worthy of fighting for, you are worthy of living, you are worth the effort of saving and changing.
And it creates a sense of stability as well that they feel for the first time, maybe, okay, I'm safe and secure in this relationship. Maybe this eating disorder's not working for me. Maybe I have a drinking problem. Because they feel that this person looking at them loves them and there's nothing they could say that would make them love them any less. And so they start to open up their hands and let go of the things that have been killing them over the years. So there's a lot more edit than just that. But my big takeaway is the greatest gift we can give other people is to be the embodiment of love to the people around us. If we can do that, people will naturally flourish and change and transform.
Warwick Fairfax:
Such a profound point, Josh. The world would be such a different place if everybody was unconditionally loved and accepted. It would be a radically different place.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word's been spoken on a subject. And between Warwick and Josh, we've just spoken that last word. I'd be remiss, Josh, if I didn't give you the chance really quickly here to let folks know how they can find out more about you and your work.
Josh Wymore:
Thanks, Gary. My website, joshwymore.com, W-Y-M-O-R-E. LinkedIn, YouTube, those are the best places to find me.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick,. We just finished a great episode with Josh Wymore, the author of the book, Humbler Leadership. A whole bunch of stuff in there to unpack. I always feel bad at this point of our wrap-ups because I asked you to do something that's almost impossible, and that is what's one takeaway that you would like folks who have watched and listened to take from our interview with Josh?
Warwick Fairfax:
I don't know if I can cut it down to one, but what I love about what Josh did in his book, Humbly Leadership, is he talks about why humility works, why it makes sense, and how really some of it is, he found a lot of research, including Jim Collins' Good to Great. In Collins' book, he talks about great leaders, those who have been very successful in terms of the long-term profitability of their companies. Yes, they have this iron will, this clear purpose, but they have great humility. So they have humility plus just a clear plan, just strong desire to transform their companies. And really humble leadership, it works.
He has data in there about people who are humble, leaders there, less stressed, less anxious, happier. It's like, who wouldn't want those things? And I loved the definition that Josh Wymore comes up with about humble leadership, and he says it includes these four elements, accurate self-perception, appreciating other's strengths and contributions, a growth mindset and greater purpose.
That makes so much sense to me. We talk about humility a lot on Beyond the Crucible. It's one of my highest values, as I mentioned in the podcast, growing up in this very large 150-year-old family media business in Australia where there's not a whole lot of humility around often very successful executives. And at the parties that in the house I grew up in, we had prime ministers, ambassadors, business leaders and so forth. So I'm very well aware of that. And so humility has always been one of my highest values.
So really, we talked about on the podcast, you raised the issue of when you come back from a crucible, you've got to have the humility to be self-aware, especially when let's say, the crucible was your fault. You made some mistakes.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
You've got to learn from those mistakes. You can say, oh, there's a lot of learning lessons, but if you don't learn them, what use is it going to be?
And so you're starting with having an accurate self-perception of yourself. It doesn't mean you have this sense of, oh, I'm hopeless. Nobody should love me. I need to hide under the covers. Don't look at me. It means, yes, there are areas where I'm not good at, but maybe there are areas where I'm great at. And it doesn't mean that you can't be humble but still realize you have certain gifts and talents that you're good at. That's okay. And by having an accurate self-perception, it helps you appreciate other's strengths and contributions that you don't have. And because you're humble, you don't have to win all the time. You don't have to be the center of attention. As Josh said, great leaders put the spotlight on others, not themselves. That is so true. You hear about great leaders talking about their own, maybe failures and faults, and talking about the successes of others, a growth mindset. Humble leaders, they always want to grow. How can I get better? How can I improve in my craft, find greater purpose? It can't just be about me.
In our language, we talk about a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. That's having a greater purpose. So really what Josh Wymore says, it makes so much sense. It works. The data shows. He has so much data that shows how effective humble leaders are. It doesn't mean thinking of yourself as hopeless or some humiliated, awful person, it's just realizing you don't have all the answers and being willing to learn from others, being willing to shine a light on your team members, having an accurate self-perception, and just we talk about having a team of fellow travelers to help you.
So being a humble leader just makes sense. How many arrogant leaders succeed long term? I would say few to none. Eventually, who wants to work for an arrogant know-it all leader? Eventually, the good people, the people you most want, they'll leave. So you want to be successful from a long-term perspective. If you want to have a legacy that people admire, you want to have family members that actually like you and admire you, try humble leadership. You'll be more successful in the broad sense of that word, at home with your friends, at work, everywhere. It just makes sense. So you want to have joy and fulfillment in your life, try being a humble leader. What Josh Wymore talks about makes so much sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
And folks that will put the end on another episode of Beyond The Crucible. Please know this, before we're together the next time, that we understand, and you've heard us talk about it, your crucible experiences are difficult. Warwick's been through them, Josh has been through them. I've been through them. We know that you're going through them now if you're listening to this show, perhaps. But we also know this if we learn the lessons from them, if we take that experiential learning and if we don't just experience something, but we learn from it. If we press in and learn the lessons that our crucibles have taught us, that they can lead us to a path that can be the most significant path of our lives, the best path of our lives, the most rewarding path of our lives, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance.
Ready? Visit BeyondTheCrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Want Contentment? Here’s How to Find It
Discontentment. It’s a crucible all its own when you’re not living a life aligned with your skills and values. But what if you are pursuing a life that is fully aligned with your skills and values? Discontentment can be a world-rattler when is pops up under those circumstances.
Warwick tackles this subject in his most recent blog, and in our discussion this week we help you overcome those difficult feelings with such tips as understanding that contentment is not found solely in what you do and asking yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to.
If it is — another tip — decouple who you are from what you do.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel. And be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. Your job, your life, your career, your calling, you feel like, "This is what I was born to do, and I'm good at it, and I feel really passionate about it," that's great, but life never tends to be easy. Very few of us go through kind of a one-and-done crucible. Crucibles can crop up, roadblocks, challenges of different sizes, some more weighty than others, and so one of the things I've found is, and maybe from others too, even when you're leading a life in line with your calling, it's still possible to be discontented.
Gary Schneeberger:
Discontentment, it's a crucible all its own when you're not living a life aligned with your skills and values, but what if you are? Discontentment can be a world-rattler when it pops up under those circumstances. Warwick tackles this subject in his most recent blog, and in our discussion this week, we help you overcome those difficult feelings with such tips as understanding that contentment is not found solely in what you do, and asking yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to. If it is, another tip, decouple who you are from what you do.
Well, Warwick, we've got another fun episode this time talking about a blog you've written, and I'm going to drop a pin right here for you, folks. There's an exciting detail about this blog that we'll reveal later, so keep listening because in some ways you won't believe one of the things that's going to come out of our conversation of Warwick's latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com, and that blog is called We All Want Contentment. Here's How to Get It. Warwick, I'll start at the start, at the beginning. What led you to write a blog called that, We All Want Contentment, how do we get it? What was going through your life, going through your mind, going through your heart when you wrote this?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary, it's an interesting question. So there's a friend and historian by the name of Stewart Johnson, and he has been working, gosh, more than 20 years, actually studying my great-great-grandfather John Fairfax. He has recently written a book which is in manuscript form. It should get published I think in the next few months. I've read quite a lot of manuscripts of this, and Stewart has very kindly asked me to write an endorsement for his book. So as listeners may know, this book about John Fairfax, he was the one that started the 150-year-old family media business in Australia. Originally, it was the Sydney Morning Herald, but then it grew to be a very large company with newspapers, magazines, TV, radio stations, newsprint bills. It was enormous. For a variety of reasons, as I was finishing my last year at Harvard Business School in 1987, with my dad having died and a bunch of things going on, management not making good decisions from my perspective, I launched this $2.25 billion takeover, again in 1987. Three years later, it doesn't work out. Australia got in a big recession, we had to file for bankruptcy.
So all this to say that I was fully aware of John Fairfax's remarkable business acumen. I mean, he was a business guy, he grew this paper into being a very successful ... the leading newspaper in Australia, the Sydney Morning Herald. So yeah, I mean, I have a Harvard MBA, but I don't have the natural business abilities perhaps that he does. I'm a reflective advisor. I'm not really a manager or a business leader, I don't think so. I was aware of that. And yes, I've read the manuscript before, but this time I was really impacted by the extent of his character, and the strength of his faith. Well, I knew he was an elder at his church, and I'm an elder at my church, but he pretty much founded or funded every nonprofit in Sydney that existed at the time. I mean, it was incredible. He had this kindness, this face that just had this sort of the light in it, this sort of shining disposition, and whether it was his family or his employees, like when he died his employees said, "We've lost a kind and [inaudible 00:04:37] friend."
He'd mentor church plotters at his particular church with plant in other places. He had not just strong faith, but such character and kindness. He would write notes to his kids when they were away saying, "Oh, I was looking for an image of you, a painting or a note, and tears came to my eyes," with his, my great-grandfather James Reading Fairfax when he was like 19, 20, he was in England in the 1850s. He's writing these just kind notes to his teenage, young adult son, and I'm like, "In the 1950s, a lot of dads didn't do that to their sons." We're talking 1850s. I mean, this is ridiculous. I mean, who is this guy? I was just blown away by his kindness, and his compassion. As Stewart Johnson said to me, "I'm a historian, if there's dirt, if there's bad things to write about," just like as you would appreciate, Gary, as a journalist, "I'm going to put it in there. My job is to be accurate." He couldn't find anything. There's nothing, not one thing.
So all that to say is as I was reading this, especially just his kindness that came through to me, it frankly made me feel a bit bad about myself. I mean, I realized, look, I'm not a business guy at his level, and yes, my faith in Christ is the most important thing in my life, but I feel like his faith is head and shoulders more than me, and his kindness and impact in the world, not just from the size of it, but just the character of the man, it just made me feel a little less than. It's like, "Oh, wow." It's like, "This is getting annoying. He's too good." So it made me think, how will I ever measure up to that standard of John Fairfax? I'm not talking about the business side, I realize that won't happen, and I'm more or less okay with that, but his faith and character, those things are really, really important to me. Faith and character, values, beliefs, faith, character, that's really important to me. It's like, "Gosh, I try my hardest, but I don't think I will ever be at the John Fairfax level."
So that made me think a lot about contentment, and what it means, and just the danger of comparing yourself to others, even including areas of faith and values that you have. You think of friends or people you read about, people you work with, and you think, "Gosh, they're so amazing. They're so patient. They're such good husbands, good wives, good fathers, good mothers. My gosh, look at all they do outside of work, and volunteer. How do they find the time and the energy? And they always have a smile on their face. I've never seen them get agitated ever," and you start thinking of yourself, "Gosh, I try so hard that it's like, wow, I can't compete. I mean it's just ... Why not give up?" So it can impact your sense of contentment.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I'm really glad ... This is going to sound bad, and it won't be bad after I finish the second sentence, the first sentence is going to sound bad. I'm really glad you wrote about this subject. It sounds like I'm really glad you felt bad and I'm not. I'm glad you wrote about the subject because when we say things like ... When we talk about contentment, and what we're going to talk about here, not placing your contentment in certain things, there's a tendency for some people to maybe look at that as a negative, as you're just settling, and that's not what we're talking about at all. I encourage you folks to keep listening and watching as we unpack Warwick's blog, but what he just explained really shines a light on why he wrote about this subject, and we'll get to even more pinpoint light as we go through the points of his blog.
I want to say one thing to you about on John Fairfax's faith and character. I've been doing the show with you for more than five years now, and many is the time ... You were talking about how he wrote a letter to his son, and it was this great letter. You've talked many times on this show, Warwick, about the way at birthdays and holidays, your family sits around the table and you speak words of affirmation to each other. That strikes me as being in the same ballpark, being on the same base of the same ballpark is what your great-great-grandfather was about. I've told you mostly jokingly that I have a historical crush on your great-great-grandmother. She was sensing he was having a hard time, sort of like you're having a bit of a hard time, which you've admitted, you've acknowledged has led to this blog, and she went and encouraged him, and talked to him to tell him, "John, if you believe this is what's going to happen, if you believe this is true, I have nothing but faith and trust in you. I believe in you." Those kinds of things she told him.
I recall, I don't know, I can't recall the episode, Warwick, but I recall that on the episode when your book came out, your wife Gale wrote something that I read on air to you about how proud she was of you, and how she always knew this book would get published. In that sense, I'm not trying to correct you, but I am trying to say where you feel like you haven't measured up, maybe all the way in the character and the faith of your great-great-grandfather, there's evidence to counteract that from my perspective.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, that's very kind. It's certainly not through lack of effort. I really try and encourage folks, and certainly my family, and yeah, no, I very much appreciate that. Maybe we can be too hard on ourselves, but sometimes we can be our own worst enemies, but yes, I appreciate that. Thank you.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, yeah. Here's the good part about it. When we're hard on ourselves sometimes, and I think it plays out in this blog, if you're being hard on yourself that's for you to determine. You've got some great tips for people. So I want to ask you another question about this blog before we dive into it, and that is we've talked many times on this show about how you can feel discontentment when you're living a life, as we described it in an earlier blog, that you want to escape from. You can feel discontentment when your life's not on the rails where you want it to be. It's not aligned with your beliefs and values, and talents and passions, but what you're talking about here is the kind of discontentment that can even crop up when you are living your life of significance. That's an all-new perspective for us. Explain a little bit about why this can happen and how hard it can be.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean it's an interesting question. Obviously, the first thing you got to do is make sure that your life and career, as we've been talking about, is in line with your beliefs and values, abilities and passions. You don't want to lead a life that you want to escape from. That's the first step. So let's say your job, your life, your career, your calling, you feel like, "This is what I was born to do, and I'm good at it, and I feel really passionate about it," that's great, but life never tends to be easy. Very few of us go through kind of a one and done crucible. Crucibles can crop up, roadblocks, challenges of different sizes, some more weighty than others, and so one of the things I've found is, and maybe from others too, even when you're leading a life in line with your calling, it's still possible to be discontented. We might feel like we're not doing enough.
Let's say you're leading some non-profit or you're working in it, and it's like you think to yourself, "There are so many people to help. I feel like the people we help is sort of like a drop in the bucket, a grain in the Sahara Desert, if you will. The need is so big, and we're making a pinprick of difference in a food pantry," in your town, whatever it is, and you just can feel less than. It's like, "Gosh, I have friends, or I've read about people that have such a bigger impact than me, maybe I just don't work hard enough, or maybe I'm not committed enough." I guess you could start being negative towards others, "Maybe I don't have the right people on the team," and then that could lead you to being too harsh than you think so. Then you want to be, "Gosh, there was that other day when I was short with my team, or my wife, or my husband, gosh, that's not the kind of person I want to be. I can't believe I reacted that way. I mean, I just chewed their head off for no reason."
Come on, maybe there were reasons, but it's just, "I'm not like that." You start getting hard on yourself and your character, and you start feeling like, "What we're doing, it feels like just a drop in the bucket, and there's so much more to do. There are so many more people to help, and I'm giving it my all, but my all, it's not enough." Then you can start feeling frustrated and discontent, even though you're passionate about your mission you feel like it's not enough, and that can cause ways of discontent and frustration to come over you.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I told you as we were preparing for this offline that I had a great example that speaks to this idea that other people's callings, they're living them out better than I am, and I think about every single one, every athlete at the professional level. Because here's the truth about every athlete on every professional baseball team, basketball team, football team, hockey team, all of those folks, they were the best player on their junior league team. They were probably their best player on their team in high school. They were close to the best player in college. In other words, they had nothing but A+, A+, A+, then they get to the big leagues, to the pros, and suddenly everybody's been that player, and the pecking order gets readjusted. There are people on professional baseball teams right now who are sitting on the bench, they're not playing much, who were the stars all the way through until they got to the pros.
I think that speaks to what we're talking about here, is that we can't all be the best player "on our professional sports team." We can't all have the greatest impact with our passion, skills, abilities, there has to be a stratification of who has the best, down to who has less. But here's the thing, when you're in professional sports, you're still in this top 1% of people. When you're living your calling out, and you're living a life of significance, and you're having an impact on others for the benefit of others, that is more than enough dare I say, that is what you were called to do. Does any of that make any sense?
Warwick Fairfax:
It makes total sense. I feel like the most mature athletes, they handle it pretty well. I think of tennis, which all Australians love tennis, and as folks know, that's where I grew up. I think for a while, Pete Sampras had the record for the most major titles, and then Roger Federer beat him. I think it was probably a little bit frustrating for Pete Sampras, but he took it, I think, pretty well, and then lo and behold comes Novak Djokovic, and he beats Roger Federer's record, and Roger Federer, he handled it. He handled it well, I mean he is happy. That's great. I think mature athletes say records are meant to be broken, and I'm sure he probably would've liked to keep the all-time record for titles.
In fact, just as I'm thinking, the person I think originally broke Roger Federer's record is Rafa Nadal, a big rival of Federer's, but also good friends. I don't think that really fazed Federer, and then along comes Djokovic and beats both of them in terms of all-time titles. I think both Nadal and Federer, they handled it well. They didn't have their identity, their significance all wrapped up in major titles. I mean, they're striving for success, they're giving it their all to be the best at their profession, they are not backing off at all.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It's true what you said, records are made to be broken, but here's what isn't broken when your record's broken, the impact you've had, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Amen.
Gary Schneeberger:
Your impact is still impact whether your record's number one, so apply that, folks, to your own calling, your own life of significance. "Your record," the size of your organization, that may be surpassed, but your impact is never broken. I think that's important to remember. Sorry, let's go through the points, you may have noticed, folks, I didn't say how many points. Again, stay tuned. Stay tuned about how many points we have. Let's go through the points of your blog called We All Want Contentment. Here's How To Get It. The first point in your blog work is this, contentment is not found solely in what we are doing. Talk a little bit about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So that is really the first step, is when we think about it, contentment can never be found solely in what we're doing. It doesn't matter how noble the cause, contentment is not found in that cause, it's really found within, and we'll talk more about this. But if you have your whole sense of contentment wrapped up in the cause, the mission, and whether it's doing well or not doing well, whether your company's growing by 10 or 20% or not, whether the people you are serving increases by 30% or 40%, if your contentment is wrapped up in metrics, that's never a good thing. Strive hard, try hard, but you don't have contentment wrapped up solely in what you're doing, it's got to be found somewhere else, and from my perspective, found within.
Gary Schneeberger:
Good place to start. Here's the second place that we go to in your blog, and that's this, dig deep into your own beliefs and values. How does that connect to the first one and get you moving along this journey that you want to lead people on on finding their contentment?
Warwick Fairfax:
I think from our perspective, when you're pursuing a mission or a calling, it's got to be linked to your most deeply held beliefs and values. Many major religious ways of thought and religious perspectives teach us that contentment is not found in things, or as the Bible says in the things of this world. Again, it doesn't mean that you're not trying hard, but you've got to find a way to separate contentment from what you're doing, and part of the keys to being able to make that separation is to begin to think of your own beliefs and values, which is really, contentment is definitely related to that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Second point. Here's the third point. We're moving with alacrity through these. This is good. The third point is this, ask yourself if your identity, ooh, this is a good one, ask yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to. The key phrase here, if I may, before I turn it over to you, the key phrase here is wrapped up in. Ask yourself if your identity is not in some ways tied to, or is not influenced by, no, is wrapped up in the cause you're devoting your life to. Why is that perhaps a bit of a recipe for discontentment?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary, I like the way you emphasized the words wrapped up in, I mean those are the keywords. Again, especially if it's some cause or mission that you're over the top passionate about, that's fine, but when your identity is all wrapped up in it, then whether you're increasing people serve by 10 or 20%, or revenues going up or down, your identity will go up and down almost like the stock market. You don't want to have your identity in line with the stock market or some other metric, it's never helpful. You've got to make that separation. So if you say to yourself, "Gosh, in all honesty, my identity is wrapped up in what I do," then that's a problem because you'll always tend to feel that, "Well, it's never enough. I'm not helping enough people. I'm disappointing myself. I'm disappointing others." So you'll tend to get on a treadmill in which you go faster and faster and faster, but you will never go fast enough to feel good about yourself, it will always be just out of reach. It's like, "When I climb that next mountain, that next ridge, then I'll feel good about myself."
We talk about identity a lot on Beyond the Crucible, there is the tendency to feel like, let's say if you're in the corporate world, "Gosh, when I get to vice president, I'll feel good about myself. Well yeah, that was pretty good, but I'm really looking for senior vice president. Okay, that's good, but executive vice president. COO. CEO. Chairman and CEO." I mean where does it end? You keep moving up the ranks, if you're lucky enough or good enough to get there, and it's never that satisfying, but you fool yourself into thinking, "Ah, but that next promotion, that next mountain, then I'll feel good." It's never the case, and you really got to separate your identity from what you do, and not that many people do that well. I can think of two people in the last few months that we came across, Stephanie Woollard and Jason T. Smith, both Australians, funnily enough.
Gary Schneeberger:
Of course, the 2872nd and 73rd Australians we've had on the show.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. Yeah, we're still trying to get to 3000. So Stephanie Wollard founded an organization, Seven Women, that strives to help impoverished women in Nepal, I believe. She was helping a lot of people, and after quite a number of years she felt it was time to hand over the reins to local people, and I asked her, "Stephanie, so how was that?" She says, "It was fine." "You built this thing up from nothing." "Yeah." "So I guess you don't have your identity wrapped up in what you do." I mean, she really didn't. She has a strong faith, but still.
Jason T. Smith, similar thing in a sense. He's founded one of Australia's biggest physical therapy business, and eventually sold it for quite a lot of money, and I said, "Jason, how did you not have your identity wrapped up in it?" He says, "Well, I always wanted to be a medical missionary, but I didn't quite have the marks to get into medical school, so this is my second choice." It wasn't really what he thought he wanted to do, but clearly if you believe in the providence of God, somehow this was exactly what God wanted him to do.
So those were pretty stunning, neither of them, and they've both been incredibly successful in their different businesses and missions, but they didn't have their identity wrapped up in what they did. It floored me.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I'm an English major, so words mean everything to me. You mentioned the word enough, it's hard, some people don't think about it's not enough, and it occurs to me that ... Let me hold this up as an example. I'm not a very good example guy, but here's an example. Here's the word enough, on one side it can tip this way, this is not enough, and that can be dangerous as you just described, but it can also be dangerous if it goes this way, "Oh, this is enough." Right? If you have the attitude, "That's enough. I don't have to try anymore. I'm done," I mean, it's a very delicate balance, to my point here, to keep enough in its proper perspective. You want to pursue something to make it as good as it can be, to make your life of significance as significant as you can make it, but at the same time, you can't keep thinking that you're less than, to use your words, if you don't get it the same place somebody else's life of significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Well said. I mean, one of the assumptions I think I'm making here is if you're pursuing a mission and calling that's linked to your deeply held beliefs and values, and you're off the charts passionate about, there's probably not a whole lot of chance you're going to slack off and say, "Eh, we're down 30% in terms of the people we serve because maybe we've got some people in the wrong spots or there's some issues, who cares? Whatever." The people, I think, that we're talking about here is they will do whatever it takes to make that mission successful, they're a 100% bought in so they're not going to slack it off, but the challenge is to feel like all your identity is wrapped up in it so that no matter how hard you try, and the particular audience we're talking to, they will feel like they can never try hard enough. Sleep is optional. Eating where you eat as you're running from meeting to meeting. These are driven people, and it's those people, and there's a lot of folks like that that feel like it's not enough.
Gary Schneeberger:
The blog, folks, is called We All Want Contentment. Here's How To Get It. The first three points we've talked about already are contentment is not found solely in what we're doing, the second point is dig deep into your own beliefs and values, the third point is ask yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to. Point four, Warwick. Again, I compliment you on this, every single time we do one of these, you connect these together so well. The fourth point connects greatly to the third point, and that's this, decouple your identity from your mission. How do we do that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So you've asked yourself the question, "Is my identity wrapped up in my calls or mission?" Let's say you find out that it is, you really need to do a gut check. You need to ask yourself some questions that you may not want to ask, and you may certainly not want to answer, and that is, can you keep going with your mission and not have your whole sense of self wrapped up in the cause? Because if the answer is, "Frankly, no. 100% of my identity is in this course. When it's going well, I feel great. When it's going badly," it's one thing when things aren't going well to feel bad, but it's another thing when your whole sense of identity is wrapped up that you're on this emotional rollercoaster. Your business has a good day and you're feeling unbelievably excited, and your mission has a poor day and you feel unbelievably depressed. That kind of yo-yo, up and down emotional stuff is not good for anybody, that's a sign that your identity is wrapped up.
Caring is different than having your identity wrapped up in your mission. Let's say the answer is, "Gosh, yeah, I can't decouple my identity from my course, it's just me." Then you might be faced with a hard decision, which is maybe you need to get out and hand the reins over to somebody that frankly has a, perhaps a more healthier, developed personality in the sense of they might not have their identity wrapped up in it. Maybe you'd be better in some other organization or other calls where your identity isn't wrapped up in it. But basically you have to ask yourself, "Is this mission about me or is it more important than me? Do I really care about the people we're serving or is this just some ego trip?"
If you answer it correctly, and there is a right answer here, the answer should be, "It's not all about me, it's about the people I want to help. It's about the people in the organization," then it's like, "Look, if I can't cut it in terms of having my identity all wrapped up in the business, if I can't cut it, then the honorable, the character-driven decision, the values and beliefs-driven decision would be to leave."Let somebody else do it, but you've got to be willing to do it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. This idea, the point, decouple your identity from your mission, find your identity within. I pulled a couple quotes. It's funny. They're from three different people, two of them have really easy names to pronounce. The one I'm going to read, of course, has somebody whose name I have no idea how to pronounce so I'm going to stumble through it, but here's what this individual said about this subject. "When we cannot find contentment in ourselves, it is useless to seek it elsewhere, like in our mission," and that was said by Francois de La Rochefoucauld. I'm sure I got that wrong, but that's who said it. "When we cannot find contentment in ourselves, it's useless to seek it elsewhere, like in our mission." I think that's a strong quote that backs up the point you just made.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, contentment has to come from within. Obviously, from a faith perspective within would mean, I guess, the contentment that God gives us when we're fully connected to Him. Obviously, there are ways we can look at this, but yes, basically it cannot come from the external work that we do, external environment, it has to come from within ourselves. There's no easy way out of this. That's where it's got to come.
Gary Schneeberger:
You just said the word soul, and guess what's in point five? I'm telling you, he does this to me all the time, folks. He does this to me all the time. He throws me off balance. He says a word, and then it's in point five. Point five is this, either way do some deep soul work and self-reflection. We talk about this on Beyond The Crucible quite often. How does it fit perfectly in what we're discussing today?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. We've talked about the issue of identity, and you've got to decouple it, identity from what you do. This is where if there's a problem and you say, "Gosh, my identity is frankly a 100% wrapped up on what I do, in the cause and mission I'm involved in," you've got to ask yourself, "Well, why?" You've got to do some deep soul work and self-reflection. You've got to ask yourself, "Well, why do I have my identity so wrapped up in what I do?" Maybe there's some hurt or some need from childhood, or from later on that was never fulfilled, and maybe you never got the affirmation, you feel like you should have got the love from your parents, or friends, teachers, friends, and it makes you seek love in other places, seek affirmation from, "Hey, look at what he or she is doing. Man, they're doing so well." Gosh, you are so great, and you just crave affirmation like a man or woman in a desert looking for an oasis. Sometimes that can be.
Sometimes people, not always, but it can be the case of people who strive the most are the ones who are filling this emotional need, this hole in their heart that needs to be satisfied. Again, not always, but sometimes. So you've got to ask yourself that question, and if you find, "Well, yeah, my parents, friends, nobody said I love you. I felt no matter what I did, it was never good enough. It was always, hey, great son, great daughter, that was good." But here's the next step, which to a kid sounds like, "Okay, so it wasn't good enough mom or dad, I get it," whether that was intended or not, that can be the message that a child receives. At that point, you've got some hard work to do. You might need to seek counseling, therapy, coaching, talk with friends and family, but certainly a first step can be talking to friends and family, it's like, "Why do I get my sense of self so wrapped up in what I do?"
If it's an issue of parents, your siblings might say, "Well, pretty obvious to me given the way mom or dad was around us," or aunts or uncles, and you've grown up in the same environment, they get it. It could be a different situation. Maybe it's the people you work with, a boss you've had may have just kind of treated you in a way that's really affected you. Whatever it is, you've got to find a way to deal with it for the sake of your mission or organization. There's also your family and your friends. Anger and frustration leak, and often we take out our frustration and unmet needs on the people we love the most. That's normal, and we pretty much can't do a whole lot about that other than deal with it. Don't deal with it, the people you love the most are going to be hurt. It's absolutely inevitable
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It just occurs to me as you're talking, one of the culprits that leads us en masse to key our identity into what we do, think about any obituary you've ever read. Joel T. Smith, 67, of City passed away. Next paragraph, he was a this, this, this and this. What did he do for a living? That's the way society sort of says goodbye to those who have passed in a formal way in an obituary, they put what they did for a living. I think that maybe subconsciously it can seep into us regardless of those other things that you've just talked about. It's a very interesting perspective. I hadn't thought about it before.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a good point, and it makes me think. You're absolutely right on about obituaries in newspapers, but think about the eulogy at church, synagogue, a spiritual place, whatever it is, tends to be a bit different, and that's when I think of John Fairfax. He was a man that was incredibly successful. He built the leading newspaper in Australia, became very wealthy, very influential. Yes, they talked about that, but they talked a lot about his faith, and what a good father and mother, and what a good friend, and what a good employee. People just said, "This man was so kind. He helped me when I needed it." Gosh, other than funding nonprofits, there was stacks of people he just gave money to that weren't involved in organizations, it's just because.
So they were really focused in his eulogy on his faith and character, and how much he was admired and liked. It wasn't like 90% Sydney Morning Herald in the eulogy. Yes, I'm sure that was there, but it was the other stuff, so you're right. There's a big difference between obituary, where we tend to key on what's my obituary, and maybe we'll talk about this later, maybe we need to focus a bit less on the obituary in the paper, and what do we want the eulogy to say.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I've just written down something that we should trademark as part of Beyond The Crucible, and that's this, live for your eulogy, not your obituary.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
That is wisdom, and it leads, I did it to myself, that leads into the next point. The next point, point six in this blog is make a decision that you will no longer have your identity, here's those words again, wrapped up, you will no longer have your identity wrapped up in what you do. Talk a little bit about why that's so critically important.
Warwick Fairfax:
Life is about choices and decisions. Ultimately, at the end of the day, our life is summarized by what we decided to do about what we chose, who we marry, what we do, who we associate with, what we devote our life to. It's all a series of daily decisions, sometimes multiple decisions every day. So if you're somebody that says, "You know what? I don't feel content because it's never enough in my mission or cause that I'm over the top passionate about. I work 24/7. I hardly sleep, eat, which is not good, or see my family, again, not good, but I'm certainly going at it." Okay, great, let's say that's you, which is typical for people in causes and missions, and you might say, "Well, I think I really do have my sense of identity wrapped up in what I do." Then you've got to decide today that you are going to take a different path, the path where contentment is from within, and not based on what you do or what others think of you.
It's easy to say contentment comes from within, contentment should come from our faith in God, our faith in Christ, our faith in whatever that means to you. It's easy to have that as a bumper sticker, something you notionally believe around the circles that you live in, and pray with, and churches you go to or other spiritual places you gather. That can all be fine, but you've really got to make a decision saying to yourself, "Is what I believe, is this just a bumper sticker or does it mean anything?" In faith-based circles, in Christian churches people say, "Oh, yeah, I believe in Jesus." Okay, great. But one of the things we say at church is Jesus is the Lord of your life, what that means is, more broadly speaking, are your faith and values really the ones that govern how you live or it's just written on a piece of paper? That's the broader translation of that, and that's absolutely critical.
You might have some credo that's on your wall, and a plaque hanging in your home, and, "Hey, I believe in kindness, and honesty, and serving other people. I believe God made us here to be a blessing to others." It can be all sorts of things written in plaques on the wall, and you may look at them and say, "Yeah, well, I pretty much do that never. I just don't walk in line with those values, and my identity is wrapped up in what I do." You just have to make a decision that, "I'm going to live what I believe," and living what I believe means, from my perspective, your identity is not wrapped up in what you are doing, it's your identity is linked to your beliefs. If your identity is linked to your beliefs, then you'll be more content. So is that plaque on the wall, is that just like a bumper sticker or is that something you really do live day in, day out?
Gary Schneeberger:
That segues into, and it speaks a little bit to what we've been doing on our series about the actionable truths of the brand. You can believe something, and it doesn't really come alive until you do something, and your seventh point here is off of point six, pursue some practices that will help you make this decision that you made in step six a reality. So talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's easy to say you believe in something. I believe in God. I believe in Christ. I believe in these sets of values, of kindness and self-sacrifice, and somehow being a blessing to others with the gifts God has given me, however you look at it it's easy to say that. We need to pursue practices that will help make this decision a reality. It really depends on your spiritual frame of reference. It could be daily prayer or meditation. It could be reading the Bible each day or some other spiritual writings, or a book of wisdom that you feel really this sums up who you are. That's something that I do from my Christ-centered perspective.
I have something we use at church, Chapter A Day, in which it gives you a scripture, it gives you a passage in the Bible. I'll read that chapter, and there'll be one verse that I key in on, to the point, and I reflect on it. What does it mean to me? I pray about it. I have scripture memory that I go over each day. I have a series of practices. Now those are the internal ones, the external practices could be going to a church or a like-minded spiritual group, again, that could take different forms, get together with like-minded people that share your beliefs and values.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's point seven in the blog, folks. If you've been with us for any length of time, you know that the captain has now turned on the fasten seatbelt sign, we've begun our descent. Oh, no, we haven't. Guess what? We haven't. There are more than seven points in this blog, just like last month, there were more than seven points. Warwick, I'm this close to asking you to produce ID so I know that it's really you.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly.
Gary Schneeberger:
But this is something, in all seriousness, that you thought was so important that you've added a couple more points to it. So the eighth point to your blog, and the name again, at beyondthecrucible.com, blog is called We All Want Contentment. Here's How To Get It. First point was contentment is not found solely in what we're doing. Second point is dig deep into your own beliefs and values. Third point is ask yourself if your identity is wrapped up in the cause you are devoting your life to. Fourth point, decouple your identity from your mission. Point five, either way, do some deep soul work and self-reflection. Point six, make a decision that you will no longer have your identity, those two words again, wrapped up in what you do, and point seven that we just discussed, pursue some practices that will help you make this decision a reality. That leads to point eight, Warwick, get grounded in your new spiritual paradigm.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So you've made a decision to not have your identity wrapped up in what you do. You're pursuing practices. It could be spiritual practices of some spectrum, whether it's Bible reading, reading some spiritual wisdom, associating with people that have your faith and values, so you're making a start. We need to get grounded in that new spiritual paradigm. It can't be like sort of dieting, "Yeah, I dieted for a week, and now I'm sort of back to no exercise, and eating whatever I want." That's not being grounded. Whatever your new paradigm is, you've got a bunch of practices you're putting in place, you're meeting with like-minded people, you're doing some daily prayer, meditation, reflection, whatever, scriptures of wisdom, literature that you like to do, but you've got to make sure you're headed in the right direction. This has become the new norm, maybe a few weeks, a few months have gone by.
Once you start to feel like this has really taken hold, that your inner soul life is heading in the right direction, and maybe you see a bit of a change, maybe you see 20 or 30% less of your identity is wrapped up in what you do, again, either way, you're committed to what you do, that's not the issue here, but maybe you sense, "Gosh, whether we're down by 20 people this month that we seek to serve, we're up by 20, or revenues up or down by 10 or 20%, okay, the company's not going under. They're not closing the doors on the mission or the nonprofit." If you feel like your internal emotional barometer's not going up and down like a yo-yo to the stock market, it's like, "Oh, that was disappointing. We didn't serve as many people as we'd like to, but let's figure out what happened, and is there anything we can do, and we'll tackle it today, and tomorrow we'll figure it out. And if for some reason there's factors beyond our control, okay, then I'll just accept that."
So you start having more of a level-headed approach to challenges, and not all that wrapped up in your identity, that's a good sign. Even if it's not perfect, if you feel like, "Well, I still was kind of pretty frustrated, but on a 1 to 10 scale I was frustration 6 versus frustration 10, in which I'm normally at." That's a win. Perfect separation of identity from what you do is obviously a challenge. Perfection is almost impossible, but you're headed in the right direction. That's really what this eighth point is about, is if I'm heading in the right direction, maybe you have an easier question to ask is, can I continue pursuing this vision that I'm off the charts passionate about, that will lead to a life of significance, which we talked about is a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, without having my identity and self-worth wrapped up in it?
If you've got yourself grounded in new spiritual paradigm, all things being equal, it would be easier to say, "You know what? I'm willing to give it a few more months, another year or two because I feel like I'm headed in the right direction. I'm decoupling my identity from what I do. Maybe I'm not a 100% there, but I see hope." Friends and neighbors see hope. If you're on a nonprofit organization, if you're involved in that, the board might be saying, "Hey, Fred, Mary, I think this is remarkable. We're seeing true change. We're seeing less of the yo-yo emotionally. We're seeing you not react if you don't always agree with a board member's advice. You're listening to us rather than say you don't know what it's about because I founded this," and off you go on your rant, how you don't get how important this is, and all that kind of stuff. You will hear from other people, and within yourself, "I'm making headway," so that's really what this point is about.
Gary Schneeberger:
So here's the ninth point, folks, the one that will get the plane on the ground, and that is this, either way, live your life based on your inner soul. Why is that the place to wrap up this discussion?
Warwick Fairfax:
Ultimately, this is the way to find the place that we all want to get to, which is contentment. We want to feel like we're striving for what we feel is important. We're on a mission that we feel like we love. It's based on our beliefs and values. We're off the charts passionate about it. We've got skills and abilities that fit. This truly is our calling. Maybe we feel like it's a God-given calling, but we want to be able to do that, and have a sense of contentment rather than, "It's never enough. There are more people I could help, more revenue, more metrics," whatever it is. When you're living your life based on your inner soul, then you can be content. You don't live to please others or to fulfill your own expectations, which typically is unrealistic. We tend to self-sabotage, whatever expectations we set is typically impossible to reach. Certainly, if your identity is wrapped up in what you do, you know that you've set the goalpost in such a way that you will never meet it, and if you do meet that, well, of course you extend the goalposts.
Your inner psyche, wounded psyche, if you will, ensures that you'll fail to reach your expectations. Its damage is designed to make sure that you don't succeed in fulfilling expectations, it can do certainly. So enjoy what you're doing as a byproduct of who you are and what you believe, but not the focus. So when you serve another, a hundred people, or you come out with something that will serve people in a new better way, enjoy that, celebrate that. Hey, that's great, you can enjoy it rather than saying, "It was all me," or, "My identity's all wrapped up," you can enjoy it because of how it's helping others. It's a different emotion. You can enjoy something without your identity being wrapped up in it, it's possible to decouple that. So one of the things we say here a lot is your joy should come as much, if not more, from the journey rather than the goals which are often unattainable, so enjoy each day. Isn't it great I get to work with a fantastic team? Isn't life great?
Maybe you've got, not everybody has this, but if you have just a wonderful wife, husband, kids, and there'll always be challenges, but enjoy the blessings. Enjoy the journey as you're building that nonprofit or mission, or even it's a for-profit organization that can still be a mission and cause about it. Enjoy the journey. Enjoy the small wins rather than the unattainable expectations. Just enjoy the journey. So when we don't have our identity wrapped up in what we do, we won't be focusing on the goalposts. Yes, we've got metrics we want to achieve, but our focus won't be just on the metrics and the goalposts. Our focus will be on let's enjoy today. Let's make sure we've got the goals, and we try and hit those goals, and if we don't, we'll recalibrate and figure it out, but I'm just not going to focus a 100% on tomorrow and the goals. I'm just going to enjoy the journey with the people I'm with.
I'm going to just be a person of character with faith and action, if you will. I'm going to enjoy treating people well, caring for them, listening to them. I'm not going to be so focused on the goals and destination that I can't enjoy the journey, or have time to celebrate with the people that I love and care about. So contentment means, yes, you can still strive for those goals, but those goals don't own you, you own them. It's just different.
Gary Schneeberger:
Plane's on the ground, folks. Warwick just ... perfect landing on the plane even though we were in the air a little longer than we normally are, but that's okay because there were really good points here. I like the fact that you came back, Warwick, at the end, and really connected it to the idea of crucibles, and things that can be difficult for us, because that's what we're here to talk to people about. Let's go where we go every time we have one of these, and that's to ask you, it's a difficult question because obviously there's a lot of stuff, you put a lot of yourself into this, but what is the one truth, the most important thing that folks can do that you'd like to leave for our listeners and viewers from this discussion of your blog?
Warwick Fairfax:
Comparing the size of your calling with others, your mission, or faith, and character is never helpful, and from my perspective, God does not look at us that way. I've really been thinking about my own faith, and calling, and character. As I think about John Fairfax, yes, his faith was off the charts, and he was such a kind man, and yes, he had this large business, but he was so well-respected and so kind, but it's not about the size of the impact, or the size of the vision, or even how kind he was, or how much faith he had, I mean how can you possibly compare? I can't or I shouldn't, I think would be a better way of putting it, but I don't think God looks at it that way. I think God looks at it, from my perspective, have you been faithful with the gifts and talents that I've given you? Have you followed the calling I've laid on your life? Have I followed the direction that you're calling me to? That's ultimately what matters.
None of us are perfect. We're going to have bad days. We're going to have times in which we were a little snippy with family or impatient, or fell short of our own ideals. Maybe the organization didn't hit the goals we wanted it to. There could be all sorts of things, but at the end of the day, you can't compare yourself to, let's say Billy Graham or Mother Teresa, or whatever the equivalent is for you. There might be people you know that you feel like, "Gosh, they're so much more patient, they're so much a better mother or father, or friend, or employer than I am. I feel bad because they're so much better than I'll ever be." You can go down a negative spiral saying, "Gosh, I can't be like my friend. They're like a saint relative to me. I mean, what's the point? I've never seen them grumble ever, or if they do it's just write it down on a piece of paper because it hardly ever happens." You just can't compare yourself, it's just not good.
Again, the other point is really you've got to find contentment from within, and not have your identity and contentment wrapped up in the size of the mission, and the size of the impact. Contentment should be as much, if not more, in the journey, the day-to-day wins, being with people that you love and respect, being on a journey that you feel like really matters, and just try to treat people well that you're around. Be thankful for every day, whether it's prayer at home, prayer in church, or walk in the woods, whatever it is, just be thankful for the journey. I guess in summary, I'd say we'll never be content if we just keep comparing ourselves with others who we feel might had a bigger impact, stronger face, stronger character than we do, because God just does not look at us, He does not look at things like that.
Gary Schneeberger:
That is a wrap, except for how we always end every podcast that talks about one of Warwick's blogs, and that is where it pulls together some reflection questions, folks, you can ask yourselves, you can ponder from this discussion. The first one is this, how much do you have your whole sense of self, your identity, wrapped up in what you do, including your cause or mission? Second question for reflection, decide today that you will not have your identity wrapped up in your mission, and will pursue spiritual practices that support the you that you want to be, whose identity is decoupled from what you do. The third point to ponder as you process what we've talked about today is this, enjoy the journey and focus on the inner work, in part your character, rather than obsessing about the mission, you might find you actually accomplish more. Isn't that what we'd all like to do? If it's possible for us to do. So, folks, that will wrap another episode of Beyond The Crucible.
Warwick and I have a little favor to ask you. If you've enjoyed the show, if you've taken something from this episode, and previous episodes that have helped you navigate your own journey from trial to triumph, we'd ask you if you're listening on your favorite podcast app, to subscribe to the show, you'll never miss an episode, and to leave a rating for the show, what you think about it. If you're watching us on YouTube, we'd ask you to do similar things. We'd ask you to subscribe to the show, you'll never miss an episode, and to also leave a comment on our YouTube channel so that we can know how you feel about what we're doing, and ask questions when you're there.
Until the next time we're together, understand, we know your crucibles are tough. You've heard Warwick and I talk about our crucibles and how tough they were more than a few times, but we also know this platinum truth about crucibles, they didn't happen to you, they happened for you. If you learned the lessons of them and apply those lessons moving forward, you can chart a course to a new destination in your life, which will be the most fulfilling destination you could ever reach because that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond The Crucible assessment, unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper, or The individualist, instead you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
How Tragedy Awakened Her Extraordinary Purpose to Help Others: Carey Conley
Carey Conley lost husband Ross to suicide in 2014 and her son Cole to the same manner of death just three years later.
After these devastating losses, she tells us this week, she was faced with a choice: To find purpose through despair, or to throw in the towel.
She chose purpose. She found it in helping those who feel lost in day-to-day life craft vision plans to find their footing. She helps people create crystal clear written visions for every area of their life, so they take action every day toward living out their purpose. And purpose, she says, is what gives people hope.
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
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Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Carey Conley:
Really, truly, there were totally two different instances. My husband in hindsight, had this all planned out. For how long? I don't know, but he had everything in order. My son panicked. I think what happened is he dropped me off at a luncheon and he was going to go into the office and let his boss know he was leaving and he was going to come back and get me, and I think instead he had a sheer panic attack. No plan, just flipped a switch.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've just heard our guest this week, Carey Conley, discuss the unthinkable tragedies of losing her husband Ross to suicide in 2014, and her son Cole, to the same manner of death just three years later. After these devastating losses, she tells us she was faced with a choice, to find purpose through despair or to throw in the towel. She chose purpose. She found it in helping those who feel lost in day-to-day life, craft vision plans to find their footing.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, Carey, it's wonderful to have you here. I love just reading some of your backstory and the work you do with vision and helping young people have a written vision statement and purpose. And you're very active with mental health, think you have a podcast, Mental Health Breakthroughs. Two books, Keep Looking Up, and Vision is Victory: Where Hopes and Dreams Become Action and Achievement. So it's really, really inspiring what you do.
So before getting to what you do now and some of the challenges you've had along the way, I'd love to hear a bit about, what was life like for you, Carey, growing up? Hopes, dreams, family life, before you got into college and work life and all, what were some of the dreams? Maybe some of it may have informed what you do now. So, what was life like for young Carey?
Carey Conley:
Well, thank you for asking. I'm turning 63 in a few days, so to think about my childhood goes way back, but.
Gary Schneeberger:
Happy early birthday.
Carey Conley:
Thank you.
I was pretty creative as a child. I loved to read, I loved to sing, I loved to dance. And I really thought that I was going to grow up to be an entertainer, I really wanted to be an actress and a singer, and my family thought that was really cute, and they came to every little show I did at school. But the message was pretty clear from my parents that they really wanted me to get a college degree because nobody in our family ever had.
So, I met my husband in high school and off to college we went, and that's where dreams turn into reality, right? I wasn't heading off to New York or LA, I was going to get a business degree and get a good job and work my way up the ranks. So a little bit of that creeps into, I think, my desire now as a speaker and a teacher and a coach, because I am on a lot of stages and a lot of podcasts. I don't sing for anybody anymore, but except for my grandsons. But yeah, I was a very creative child, but I really followed a whole different path than I thought.
Warwick Fairfax:
Talk about for you in those early years after college, you got married, you had dreams, but I think just like a lot of people, it seemed like it was hard to find your niche, your place, if you will. I think there's a few job changes, so just talk about, your story seems to be a common story. So talk about your story, Carey, and what were those first few years after college as you're trying to figure out life and career?
Carey Conley:
Yeah. Well, I got married really young, because remember, I met my husband in high school, we went through college together and got married right out of college, and both of us went to work. He went into sales in the technology era when barcoding was first becoming a thing, so he did very well in that industry. And I went into sales and marketing and advertising, and changed jobs about every two years because I couldn't find the job that I loved.
And I had a mentor show up in my life at one of the jobs that I was at, who was the first person to say to me, "Carey, you can create your life to look however you want. You just have to get really clear on what you want." And so with her direction, and this was a pivotal moment in my life, I took a day off at work and with a legal pad of paper, I wrote out very clearly what I wanted in every area of my life, what kind of relationship I wanted to have with my husband, the kind of mom I wanted to be when we started a family, where we were living. And I wrote a lot of things about, could I be an entrepreneur so that I could work from home and have the flexibility that I really wanted? And so I really started dreaming about that and didn't know the direction I was going to take. I just knew that I wanted residual income work from home, flexibility, leadership, and being able to make an impact on other people.
And so two years later, we'd had our son, and I was five months pregnant with my daughter, and I got introduced to the industry of network marketing with a company called Arbonne, which a lot of people are familiar with. It's very much like Mary Kay, skincare, health and wellness products. So I stepped all in, because it checked all the boxes that I had ticked off of what I wanted. And so I followed that vision, and I really believe what happened that day, not knowing it then, but knowing it now, is that God and I were collaborating that day. He was talking to me and telling me, "Here's the direction I want you to go," because I really believe now that he knew what was coming later in my life and was preparing me for that. Because my vision became my purpose, and I taught it to all the leaders that joined my company, and so I had already been teaching it for a really long time. So that was the earlier years and how I really started following my vision and how I became known for what I do now.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, how old were you when you met this person? Were you still in your 20s at that point, or?
Carey Conley:
Yeah, I think I was about 27, 26, 27.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's sort of amazing to me because imagine an alternate life where you didn't meet that person and you were going from job to job every two years it's like, ah, this isn't really satisfying me, but maybe the next one will. I'm sort of reminded of this parable or the story, fable, I guess you'd say, I'm sure you've heard in which this anthill and all the ants are climbing up the mountain and it's like, where are you going? I don't know, but yeah, it must be something amazing at the top because everybody else is climbing there, and you get there and there's nothing. But there's this sense that this current job is not fulfilling me, but boy, the next one is, and you spend your whole life, for many, 30, 40, 50 years, you become CEO, and then it's like, well, now what? There is no further up than CEO, and so it gets lonely.
So you could have spent decades doing what most people do, but that person was a gift because it's impossible to know. Maybe you're smart enough that at some point you would've figured it out, but do you ever think about, what would my life have been like if I had never met that person?
Carey Conley:
It's hard for me to imagine that because I was so determined and still am to follow my own path, and that's one of the biggest things I teach because it's so hard for people, especially the older they get to really, really follow their heart's desires and their path that they really want to follow.
Probably what would've happened, when I was in college, I was in a sorority and obviously still dating my high school sweetheart there, and everybody knew that my husband Ross was going to be successful. So my sorority sisters all thought that I was going to go off to be a country club wife. So most likely when we started having the kids, I would not have been working, but I would've been doing, running something somewhere, because I just have the natural leadership. I just step into a room and I want to step into helping and organizing it. Right? I'm not really good with sitting in the background. So I don't know, I would've been... And that could have been fun, but not fulfilling long-term. It's not a purpose, it was just would've filled my time.
Warwick Fairfax:
So life was going well, you had a good job, your husband had a good job. You were being very successful at Arbonne and mentoring, teaching people. So in one sense, do you look back sort of pre crucible saying, life is pretty much working out the way I was hoping it would? I mean, this is great, it's not perfect, but it's pretty good. Did you feel that was the way that life was like at the time?
Carey Conley:
Well, we were living the American Dream. We had a beautiful home, great neighborhood, great community, good schools, we were blessed to be able to put our kids through a private Christian school. Just the all-American family, right? Took all the trips together, thank gosh, they're wonderful memories that I have now. Never in a million years did we think that anything would touch us the way it has. So yeah, never in a million years thought anything could happen. My kids were great kids, both college degrees, all the great things, but you just have to be prepared for just about anything, and that's, life changed for me drastically in 2014.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, talk about that. You had two crucibles within three years, so what happened in 2014?
Carey Conley:
So in 2014, I lost my husband to suicide, and then three years later, I lost my 25-year-old son also to suicide. And this has now been obviously almost 11 years now since this all happened, so, no words.
Warwick Fairfax:
No, I can imagine. So talk about not so much the details, but just emotionally, obviously you've had years to think about it. What were some of the maybe confusion or not confusion, what were some of the challenges that your husband were facing that would lead him to even think about taking his own life? As you look back, what were some of those factors?
Carey Conley:
Well, I think we've touched on some of it already. Work, my husband obviously followed what he was told to do too. Got a great business degree, great job, stayed with the company for almost 30 years, was very successful, very highly regarded, and just a really well-loved man. But I think in his heart that he really wanted to do something different with his life and just felt like he couldn't make those changes that late in life. Right? He was too ingrained with the company and we were making great money, and for him to go off and do something totally different, I really think my husband should have been a teacher. He taught Bible study at our church for many, many years and loved it. It was the highlight of his week. But for him to think at the age of 50 that he could leave this corporate job and go get a teaching degree and start teaching was just unfathomable to him.
So I really think he was struggling a lot with his identity, and I think that's unfortunately a really big part of men, I think, is a lot of their identity is attached to what they do and not who they are. And that message was very clear for him growing up and very much a big part of his adulthood. So there was that struggle going on. His company was getting ready to go through a merger, and he wasn't quite sure what was going to happen with his job, amongst a lot of other things. But in hindsight, there were just, I think, years of turmoil going on that I was not aware of.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean, it's unfortunate that men by and large, they don't really talk about what's going on inside.
Carey Conley:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
We're sort of taught, stiff upper lip, be tough, be brave, be the protector, be the whatever. And showing emotion is weakness, weakness is bad. I mean, it's certainly in our generation, it's changed a little bit, but was deeply ingrained. And so when you feel like, gosh, my identity is all wrapped up in what I do and I kind of hate what I do, or I think it was Thoreau, talk about people lead lies a quiet desperation. They're not breaking out on the surface, but inside they're sort of dying a little bit day by day. It's just, is this what life is? And it's obviously when you seem to have a successful husband and everything seems to be fine, you have no idea that this could happen. If you did, obviously you would start saying, "Ross, we need to talk here. What in the heck is going on? You're a determined person. You just keep drilling until the answers came out. If I have to strap you to a chair, I'm going to figure out what's going on."
But as you look back, I mean, it's easy to say, "I could have done A, B and C," but are you able to say, "There's nowhere I could possibly have known"? It is easy in hindsight, you probably met with a lot of other survivors of this kind of event. You were able to look back and say, look, of course, if I knew what was going to happen, I would've drilled down more, but how could you have possibly known? You know?
Carey Conley:
Right? Yeah. Well, you obviously, especially with suicide, you go through those questions a lot, especially in the beginning. Why didn't I see this? What could I have done? I could have prevented this. As the years pass, I've learned that a lot of those feelings fade for the most part because I'm very aware now that even if I had drilled down a little bit more and trust me when I tell you, we had a lot of conversations about the angst that he was going through. I told him, "Look, if you want to go drive a bus, I don't care. I just want you to be happy." I don't think he would've even told me anymore, even if I'd kept drilling, of what he was thinking.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Well, one of the sad things in life that it's hard to accept with our loved ones is, I find just running my own life is challenge enough. It's not easy, and in theory, I'm meant to be in control of my own life. But I mean, life is great. I mean, I have a wonderful wife, wonderful kids, but I get fearful and anxious and angry at times. But our ability to run other people's life is like non-existent. We can influence and try, but I mean, changing ourselves is hard enough, changing other people, it's like impossible. And it's not an easy thing for us, certainly not for me to accept the time.
So let's talk about your son, Cole. So three years later, the unthinkable happened again. So talk a bit about, again, not the details, but how life was like for him leading up to what happened.
Carey Conley:
So at the time that my husband passed, Cole had just graduated from college and he got a job here in Arizona with Channel 12, the new station. So my husband passed in July, cole started his job that August. So once we got through the memorial and I got my daughter back to college, he and I got out here to Arizona so that he could start his job. And I started living half time in Denver, which is where we're from again, and Arizona, which is how I ended up living here, because I love it.
He was doing very, very well at the news station. Again, my son was very well liked, he was a super chill guy, had a lot of great friends, was having a lot of fun. But I think slowly dying inside that job, because my son was also super creative. I think his desire would've been to be in front of the camera instead of behind it, but I don't think that he felt that he would've been supported following a career, maybe in acting or something, or creating his own video productions, which I think he should have done. He had the right job, you guys, he was told, "You've got a great career here." He was ranking up fast and I don't feel like he felt as a young adult that he could take the risk and go do what he wanted to do, even though we had multiple conversations about him just quitting. And in the end, on the day that he passed, he was actually going into the office to tell them that he was going to leave because he and I were going to figure out what his next moves were.
So a lot of struggle, I think, with his identity as well as a young man. And I think that unfortunately there's a lot of that happening with that generation, which is why I'm so passionate about working with young adults now.
Warwick Fairfax:
I think he may have mentioned that he didn't necessarily have a lot of close friends where he was. How much was that a factor in terms of what happened?
Carey Conley:
He actually developed a lot of close friends here. It took some time. I think this is another thing that a lot of people don't really know. There's a new book out by Mel Robbins called Let Them, and in the book she talks about the different dynamics of friendships throughout the different seasons of our life. And she was so spot on when she talks about, think about your entire growing up. You all, as a child, all the way through when you start a job, you have a built in community, you have a family, you have your school, you have your activities. When you go off to college, you've got your organizations that you join. You have all these tribes that are just there.
And when they get out of college, this is very true for what happened to my son, they all took jobs in different cities where they knew nobody. And so a lot of that, the first year or so of him being here in Arizona was trying to figure out where those friends were. And they don't know how to do it organically. I had to literally teach him how to get on Meetup and look for clubs of interests that he had, like tennis. My son was a tennis player. But it just doesn't come naturally in them because they've just been thrown into built in communities. So they are right now the loneliest generation we have, because they really don't know how to figure it out. And because of the internet, they isolate a lot. So it took him a while, but he had very close friends here.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, obviously that's once is unbelievably painful, but twice with your son, and just to think that he was about to tell his boss, "I'm quitting," and get a talk with you about what the next step would be. And you can't help but think, if you could have waited a day or two, this may never have happened. It almost feels like how can one be worse than the other? They're both horrendous, but it felt like there was hope here. The other one is more complicated, in a sense, but here it felt like we were about to make a change together. Why couldn't he have waited a couple days?
I mean, that's again, you did everything. You were standing by him as a wonderful mother and saying all the right things. You're not defined by this job, we can find something more creative. I mean, there's nothing, obviously, I don't know all the details, but it sure feels like there's nothing more that you could have done than you did. But I mean, how do you process something like that? Do you feel like Cole, well, why? We were just about to chart a new course, it never makes sense in a way, but it almost makes less sense. Does that make... I mean, how do you process those emotions when you felt like you were on the cusp of this positive change with Cole?
Carey Conley:
Really, truly, they were totally two different instances. My husband in hindsight, had this all planned out. For how long? I don't know, but he had everything in order. My son panicked. I think what happened is, he dropped me off at a luncheon and he was going to go into the office and let his boss know he was leaving and he was going to come back and get me, and I think instead he had a sheer panic attack. No plan, just flip the switch. Very different instances to process. But I've learned to not ask why, this, why me? It all has a purpose, unfortunately. This is just how it all went down and how I'm supposed to carry it out.
Gary Schneeberger:
You said that after these losses, you made this statement that you had to find purpose through despair or you had to throw on the towel. Those were your two choices. And we say a similar thing. Warwick says a similar thing here, Beyond the Crucible, right? You can go lying in bed, pull the covers up over your head, or you can get out and you can move forward. And you chose purpose, you have said. You enjoyed your business prior to losing Ross and Cole, but you knew the next chapter was calling you to rise to a new level that would make an impact on more people on a larger scale. That was a turning point for you, rooted in the tragedy that you went through, but that's a turning point everybody who goes through a crucible to some... Right? It doesn't have to be as "devastating" as yours. We say all the time, "You can't compare crucibles." That process you went through, that counsel that you would give to others, that's true for any kind of crucible somebody has, right?
Carey Conley:
Yes, yes. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people do pull the covers up over their head in one way or another, and I could easily do that. My best friend retired two weeks ago, and her lifestyle is looking really easy right now compared to what I'm doing. And I could do that, I could retire, but the thing is, is that I, being a Taurus, I am loyal to a fault. When I tell somebody I'm going to do something and I've told the world now what I'm doing and what I'm creating, it would be near impossible for me to say, "Yeah, I'm not doing it."
I also, I have a big mission because I now have two grandsons. So my vision of helping young adults has a lot to do with the next generation of kids they're raising, because if I can help them get through their own storms, which is the subtitle of my newest book that I'm working on right now, I think they're going to be much stronger in helping those young kids that they're raising as well.
Warwick Fairfax:
So in those dark early years, as obviously it's not that far away, but far enough, you've been able to move on and maybe find some purpose amidst the devastating tragedy, but how did you make that choice not to hide under the covers or to be angry at Ross and Cole, be angry at God, angry at the universe? Just this is so unfair, I did everything I possibly could. I'm not a passive person, this makes no sense, it's not right. And you would know better than I, there are people that spend the rest of their lives just being angry and mad and just not being in a good place for them or the people they love is we often say "Here, hurt people, hurt people." And so in your anger, if you go in that direction, that wouldn't have been helpful on your daughter, obviously. Not that you would've meant to, but we're all human. And so, how did you make a choice not to go down that dark path and to maybe go to the path of light and hope? How'd you make that choice?
Carey Conley:
Well, one, it was because of my daughter, she was so strong and still is, and she was starting her life. She got married a year later, started having her babies a year later. I mean, life went on and I needed to be there for her and vice versa. So, there was that. What's interesting is, a lot of people asked me why I was never angry with Ross. I've had a few moments, don't get me wrong, but for the most part I don't feel anger, because when people take their life, what they truly believe they're doing is the best thing for you. So I don't think that in Ross's mind, he was doing this to hurt me or hurt our daughter. It was just, he really felt like he had no choice and that this would be best for everybody. Same thing with my son.
So, anger's never really been a big emotion, although I will say I didn't talk to God really well for about a year. Yeah, because I was like, okay, we can't talk right now because letting this happen once and then taking my son, yeah, that's a whole different world. But I have completely come full circle in that and rely completely on my relationship with him and know that at the end of the day, you guys, we're all going to the same place if we believe, and I know they're there.
Warwick Fairfax:
You've obviously turned what you've been through as a vehicle for helping others. You can't stop every tragedy, none of us. You can do what you can to minimize it. One life saved is, I don't know if it's enough, but one life saved is significant. It's very significant. And I'm sure you probably have thought that with what you do with your podcast, Metal Health Breakthrough. So talk a bit about your mission in life, and nobody wants what you've been through, but it's helped you identify with and console others you probably wished you weren't in a position to have the knowledge to console, that's not a mission you signed up for. Who would want that mission? But yet, talk about how these devastating tragedies have given you a mission and talk about what that is and why you're so passionate about it.
Carey Conley:
Because it's working. Another example is when I started bringing young adults onto my podcast about a year and a half ago. And it was so interesting to me and how much I love doing that, to have them come on and be so transparent about how they're feeling about their life and for them to allow me to hot seat coach them a little bit, and send them out with some hope on a better vision for their life and their future, and to be able to take some baby steps.
So to have most especially young men around my son's age, have them come to me and say, "You know what you said on the podcast last week really, really helped me and it prompted me to reach out to you and let you know that." So those are the days when you're just like, why am I doing this? I could go retire and go off in an RV with my best friend right now. But, and some days you don't hear those messages and you wonder, am I really making a difference? But just when you need it, you'll get a message like that saying, "I just want you to know that I've been following you and you've been helping me a lot." That's what fuels me now.
Warwick Fairfax:
So I want to talk a bit about this whole concept of vision statements, which you kind of had one early on, and talk about why that's so important. It's not necessarily a blueprint for every micro step in your life, but talk about what it is and why it's important because I found it fascinating, your concept of writing down a vision or a purpose statement. Talk about what it is and why it's so helpful.
Carey Conley:
So I have a methodology that I worked through that I help people start envisioning further out. So I use a timeline of three years, because most people can think three years out. So when I get them to start writing their vision with me and at my own events, I actually get them to write it while they're there because most people, they can take home my Vision is Victory workbook and say they're going to do it and they don't. So I bring them into a room once or twice a year and they actually get an hour to write it, and I ask them to date it as if it's three years out. And after they write the date, I ask them to write how old they will be and how old all their family members will be, because it's very eye-opening when they start looking at that because now it's right here.
And in about a three to five year timeframe, there are some season seasonal life changes. Right? And I get them to think just like I did when I was 28, 27, when I wrote my first vision, every area of their life and what they envision it to be as if it is that day. And to dream really big, don't live anything out, even if they can't fathom how they're going to get there based on their circumstances right here, because I do believe that once they create that, it gives them a little light at the end of the tunnel, a little bit of hope as to, okay, I see what I really want and it excites me and it's inspiring me to now start taking some baby steps a little bit every day.
So when I coach people, what I do is get them to give me the big vision, and then I work with them on reverse engineering a game plan so that they know exactly what lines up with the vision every day and what doesn't. So it's easier for them to do the yes and no thing, as to what to add onto their plate and what not to, and so they can just take some steps.
Gary Schneeberger:
You've said a couple of times in this conversation that it's hard, especially for young people, and all of us can experience this. It's hard to find a path that they want to follow. I, as a stepparent, I see that firsthand. It's hard for my stepchildren, son and daughter to what is it, the purpose, the passion that they want to pursue, and then how do they pursue it? They may know what they love, but how do they pursue it? What counsel do you give people to get them to tap into taking that step? And then what wisdom do you have for how you can put one foot in front of the other and get toward that direction that you want to go?
Carey Conley:
So I'll give you another example. So when I was doing my podcast in a studio, I had a young man in the room with me when I was recording. He was 22, his name is Ethan. And one day in between us recording, I asked Ethan to share with me how he was feeling about his life right now. And he was very open with me because he heard me interviewing people all day long so he felt like he was in a really safe place and so he said, "I worry a lot about money, then I'm worried about..." He had stopped going to college during COVID and didn't know if he should go back to college, that didn't feel right where he should be living. He had a girlfriend at the time that they were working through relationship, all the things. Friendships, what friendships he wanted to continue, what he didn't.
And he revealed to me that what he really, really always thought that he would do would be in video production. But because of that being a creative industry, he was questioning it. Is this the right path? How do I even start that? Where do I get my feet wet? And I said to him, "Do you know one person, Ethan, that's in that industry that if you ask them to just give you some advice and some steps to take, they could give you some steps to take?" And he said, "Yes, I do." And I said, "Can you just do one thing for me and reach out to this person this week and ask them the questions that you want to ask?" And he did that, and now I think he's following his path. And it wasn't easy because he had a lot of voices in his head saying, "That's not the safe thing to do. You should go back to college and get the degree." But in his heart's desire, he knew what he really wanted and he was willing to at least take some baby steps.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, that's so powerful. I mean, I think there's a couple thoughts I have as you're sharing, that it's just the importance of that vision statement. I didn't exactly have that, although I'm blessed to be doing what I love now. I'm very reflective, so I tend to ask myself, is this what I want to do, and what about this? Not everybody's wide like I am, for better or worse. The good part is, I think a lot about things, about why am I doing this and what does this mean and what's the next step? And so, maybe I could have done it a whole lot quicker if I had more of a roadmap. But yeah, just having that roadmap, it helps you know what to say yes to and what to say no, and I think you're right about this. And when an opportunity comes up, it's like if somebody came up to Ethan and said, "Hey, I've got this video production company, and any interest in talking about it?" Well, he'd be saying, "Yes, thank you." You know?
Carey Conley:
Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
He wouldn't have to think. Talk about, there's the vision statement, which is helpful, but having somebody, whether it's a coach, a friend, a counselor, the importance of somebody not to hold your hand, but to be with you to tamp down the fear and raise up the action meter. So talk about, it's hard to do life yourself, right?
Carey Conley:
Well, it'd, yeah. If you're going after your dreams, your big dreams, you absolutely can't do it yourself because every day you're going to want to quit. I'm a big believer if you step into God's purpose, there will be adversity that you will face. One of my favorite books is Outwitting the Devil, about how we meet with all the mental doubt and all the things. So I just really feel like you just have to know what you're going after and just know that if you are really following your purpose, you are on the right path and you're going to need a team of people to pull you through.
So when I stepped into Arbonne, as a matter of fact, network marketing in the early '90s was a big taboo. So all of my friends, including my husband and my family, thought I was crazy for going and selling lipstick.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's like, oh, you're doing Tupperware, Mary Kay.
Carey Conley:
Right, you're doing that pyramid scheme thing. Right?I had to really fight that because there were a lot of people who thought I was nuts and a lot of people who did not even support me in it, begged me to quit. But I just knew that that was my path. So what I had inside Arbonne was a team of leaders that saw me as a leader, and they were the ones who talked me through every day that I wanted to quit. They were like, "You're not quitting. You are meant to be at the top. We love you, you've got this." You've got to have those people.
And I've always had coaches. I've always had somebody who could not only teach me the skills. So when I stepped out of network marketing and building my own speaking coaching business, I had no idea what I was doing, so I hired my first business coach who taught me everything. And was that person who held me accountable to the activity that I told her I was going to do. So yeah, you've got to have that.
Warwick Fairfax:
See, that is so good. I believe that strong people ask for help.
Carey Conley:
Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
The so-called weak people, whatever that means, I've got it, and there are some guys like this. Hey, I don't need to ask directions. I mean, now we've got Google Maps and everything. I'm good. Well, no, you're typically not good because we don't have all the skills in every area and all knowledge. Nobody other than God has that. So, okay, it's okay. So I've fortunately always been wired, even in my 20s I had one or two people that were mentoring me and knew more about the law than I did at the time, so I've always been open to advice. Maybe it's a little unusual for some guys, but if somebody can help me, then why not?
And I guess other things that I use, I'm not sure about yourself, but I'm a big believer in scripture memories. I have a bunch of scripture memories of... 1 Pete 5:7 "Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you." [inaudible 00:37:01]. A bunch of go-to ones a bit like tools. Okay, do I need a wrench? Do I need a hammer? So anyway, I don't know if any of this makes sense, but maybe I'm not as fearful as everybody, but I like to think I'm pretty fearful in general, but I will not let that stop me from making decisions I feel like is rational and God is calling me. Does any of that make sense? Just, tools?
Carey Conley:
1,000%, because I don't know how many times the sentence, "Do not fear," is in the Bible, but I think it's the highest number of repeats. Right? So when we have fear, we've got to know where it's coming from and identify that this is not real. To me, it's an attack.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.
Carey Conley:
I'm in a lot of fear right now because the leaps that I'm about to take are really big. And so I know, I've just learned that I'm on the right path, and that's what a lot of people don't realize.
Warwick Fairfax:
Given the fear meter is going up, I must be doing something right.
Carey Conley:
Exactly. See, and people think the opposite. They think if there's fear, they're about to do something really wrong and a big mistake, and that's why they back away. And I've learned that if I'm really feeling this, that we're about to make some changes in some people's lives.
Gary Schneeberger:
I have a Bible AI program on my phone, and I just asked it how many times is do not fear in the Bible? 70 times. So there you go.
Carey Conley:
Yeah, yes. Yeah, so the message is clear, gentlemen, right? And I also know that when I'm on the right path, I get encouragement every day that comes out of the blue. One big example is, I'm getting ready to host an in-person event, which I have not done since before my son passed. And it's time for me to put it back on the calendar, it's called Visions Victory, and it's where I bring people together to write their vision and collaborate. And we're being faced with all sorts of challenges right now to pull off this in-person event. But randomly, I connected with a woman who has a large organization and has a facility that I can get for next to nothing, out of the blue. So I'm like, all right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Feels like a sign from above.
Carey Conley:
It is.
Warwick Fairfax:
Carey, you're meant to do this.
Carey Conley:
Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
I almost feel like sometimes when you're going through challenging circumstances, as in you trying it in a new book, new event, it's almost like drops of grace or sort of an oasis in the desert. Okay, got it, I needed this. And just a word of encouragement, maybe a bunch of people are saying, "This makes no sense," but a friend says, "You know what, Carey? I know other people don't see this, but I think it does make sense. I think you should do this."
So yeah, I mean, it does take a team. It does take people to help us through that. And life is not meant to be lived alone, you've got to be vulnerable. Men especially have a tough time, I think there's so much self-help out there that I'd like to think that's changing. But yeah, we need, I love what you say is purpose is what gives people hope. I mean, obviously from a Christian perspective that ultimately that's purpose is in God. But in terms of his specific mission for us, when you feel like, and we talk about this a lot on Beyond the Crucible, when you feel like you are using your skills and abilities for a purpose that you feel like is making a difference in the world, whatever that means to you. It could be cleaning up a neighborhood park and the inner city or something. It doesn't have to be this mega world, it doesn't have to be the next world vision or something. It doesn't have to be on that scale, but it makes you feel like life matters.
And I always believe, and we say this a lot, God gives us from my perspective, gifts and abilities, and he doesn't do it on accident. So if he gives you certain gifts and abilities, you're meant to use them. If you're in a job that doesn't use any of those, probably it's not God's plan from my perspective, because he doesn't make mistakes. If he makes you creative and he makes you a leader, in your case. Well, there's a reason he did that. He wants you to use that for some grand purpose.
Carey Conley:
Absolutely.
Warwick Fairfax:
So yeah, people just when they feel like I've got to be sensible, get that 9:00 to 5:00 paycheck and life is meaningless, and I just live for the weekend to play golf or hang out with my friends, and that's okay, but a life without purpose and meaning is empty. So when you're talking with young people and some, unfortunately not against parents, but some parents are not helpful. Ditch the dreams, be sensible. Okay, well, can you keep the dream and find a way to be sensible? Can we do both? A little creativity.
Carey Conley:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So do you talk to parents at all? Because sometimes parents can be one of the big problems of-
Carey Conley:
The biggest.
Warwick Fairfax:
[inaudible 00:42:09] kids.
Carey Conley:
I hate to say, I see this turning a little bit now, but it's still not easy that the messages are loud and clear from parents early on that they want what they think is best for you, and what they think is best for you may not be the vision that you have. Right? So, and I think a lot of that stems from them wanting their children to have better than what they had. Like me going to college, I'm sure that the message was clear because my parents did not go to college, and so they wanted me to have that education. So, and unfortunately, our schools are still very much wired to, okay, so you want to be a writer? Cute, but we're going to groom you to go into the medical industry because by the time you get out of school, there's going to be a huge need for that. Starting at age five, when they start going to school more than they're at home playing, a whole different message becomes ingrained. And so the paycheck becomes the non-negotiable in their mind.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, as we begin to wind down in this conversation, obviously mental health is a huge focus for you. I'm sure you desire to get people before they're even thinking about what sadly your husband and son did. What are some key things, certainly for young people, that just to begin to get them on the right path so they don't even get to those ideation thoughts that are so... Once you have those ideation thoughts, I mean, who knows? You probably know more than me what happens after that, you don't want to even get to the ideation stage. So, what are some of the things that's a young person that maybe confused, maybe they don't have supportive parents. They say, "Do I go to college? Do I go to trade school? My parents want me to be sensible. I don't even know what that means," and they're just confused? Sea of confusion.
Carey Conley:
Yeah. Well, you've said it a couple of times, and I'll use myself as example. So when I wanted to step into network marketing, I had a really great job and my son was two and I was five months pregnant. And so for a while, I stayed in the job and built my business on the side, to where I could get it to the level that I needed to be to be able to let go of the job and still cover the bills that I was paying in the household. So I had a game plan and I mapped it out so that I can go to my husband and say, "Okay, here's what I want to do and here's how I'm going to do it, and I'm going to shoot to get to this level in the company." My goal was to get to the first level in Arbonne by the time my daughter was born, so I had three months to do it.
And so that's what I did, is I just asked the leader, the one and only Mercedes driving VP in Arbonne in Colorado at the point, "How do I do this?" And she said, "If this is where you want to be, this is the activity you need to do every day, every week, every month consistently." And I followed it because I had a game plan of shimmying out of where I was at the job. So you just have to have a plan and just take some baby steps like I said, every day. Get the support around you of the people who will support you, like I had the leaders in Arbonne who were saying, "We've got your back. We see you, and we're going to be here for you every step of the way." So you need those people too. And just know that that desire that's tapping at your heart is never going to go away. It's there for a reason. If that desire is there, God put it there, and you have everything you need to follow it out.
Warwick Fairfax:
That is such good advice. Rather than just jump and hope, jump but have a plan and make sure that plan is connected with your passion and purpose, and you have a support team. I mean, those, and obviously I'm sure this is all in your materials, but there are some key building blocks for creating a life that you love, right? Jump with the plan, make sure it's satisfying your passion and purpose, and I think from our perspective, some broader purpose that helps others, and have a team that will help you, cheer you and offer you advice. All of those things greatly increase your chances of success.
Gary Schneeberger:
Speaking, folks, of having a plan, the captain of our plane has a plan. He may have heard he just turned on the fasten seatbelt sign indicating we are about to begin our descent into landing this conversation, but we're not there yet. And before we get there, I would be remiss, Carey, if I did not give you the opportunity to let our listeners and viewers know how they can find out more about you and the services you offer. So, where can they find you and interact with you?
Carey Conley:
Everything is on my website and it's just CareyConley.com. My podcast is there, the resources that I have are there, how to connect with me. Pretty soon there'll be information about the event that I'm having later this year. So, that's usually the best place to go, my books, etc.
Gary Schneeberger:
As a guy whose last name is Schneeberger and no one can spell it, co-hosting a podcast with a guy whose name is Warwick and the W in the middle is silent, how do they spell your name just so they can get [inaudible 00:47:31]?
Carey Conley:
Good question. C-A-R-E-Y C-O-N-L-E-Y.
Gary Schneeberger:
Fabulous. Speaking of our host, Warwick, as always, the prerogative of the last question or questions is all yours.
Warwick Fairfax:
So Carey, as I'm thinking about our conversation and what we've talked about, you focus a lot on mental health, young people. What's your biggest dream for young people that's been at the core of your vision as you're moving forward?
Carey Conley:
That's that these dark thoughts they have don't end up coming to fruition. The movement, this community that I'm building is really a movement towards changing the trajectory of suicide and even having that as an option, because unfortunately, it's getting younger and younger. There are nine-year-olds taking their lives. I mean, it's just, it's got to stop. So, we just have to really change this idea that it's even an option.
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject's been spoken. And our guest, Carey Conley just spoke the last word on this subject.
Warwick, we just had a very in-depth and spirited conversation with Carey Conley, our guest, who just went through some truly terrible crucibles. There's a lot of stuff to unpack there, but what one or two things really stood out to you about what Carey shared?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean, Carey Conley was so inspiring. I mean, what she went through is just hard to comprehend how you could possibly get over losing her husband, Ross, to suicide in 2014, and then losing her son, Cole, three years later in 2017. I mean, how you come back from that is, it's hard to imagine. It's hard not to think, could I have seen the signs with my husband's frustration at his job or feeling like this is not the life I want to live? And then with her son, Cole, he really didn't want to be in the job he was in, and tragically was talking with his mother. They had the beginnings of a game plan of how he could shift into a different career, and just almost on the cusp of a positive change, he had this sudden reaction and without any plan, just takes his life. So it's just, both are different circumstances but both are just unbelievable tragedies to come back from.
And what I find interesting and inspiring about Carey's story is she said, "After these devastating losses, I was faced with a choice. I had to find purpose through despair, or I had to throw in the towel." And as she says, she chose purpose. She has come with a whole mission of podcast helping young people, especially Mental Health Breakthroughs. She has two books, Keep Looking Up, and then Vision is Victory: Where Hope and Dreams Become Action and Achievement. She talks about how purpose is what gives people hope.
So she really tries to come alongside young people who are often fearful and confused and give them hope. They sometimes maybe often have parents that love them, but say, "Be practical," which tend to tends to scratch the dream. And just helping young people just cling on to their dreams, not just jump without a plan. I mean, when she left the job she had and worked for Arbonne, which is I guess a healthcare wellness network marketing firm, she had a whole plan so that before she made the full-time jump from her current job, she would have enough money coming in to make it all work. So it wasn't my jump mindlessly.
So I love what she does, helping young people realizing that, yes, I'll have fear, but what's one person you can talk to? What's one step you can take? And really having a team. She had a team at Arbonne when she first started there, a team of people that were with her and said, "We've got your back." So she has a methodology and tools to combat fear, to have a team around you, and really to make those steps to begin to change your life and move it in a positive direction. So I love what she does, and she has an incredible mission, and she's definitely not let her worst day, her worst two days, define her.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right, and I mean, I was struck by just how similar what she does and what we do at Beyond The Crucible is. I mean, her big focus is helping people map out a vision for their life. And my goodness, if there's a word that we say more than any other, it's pretty close to vision, is that word. I mean, there's a lot of similarities between what she's doing, helping people draft out a written vision for their lives, and what we talk about, about how your vision must flow from your passions and your talents, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, certainly some similarities. We talk about when you go through a crucible that didn't happen to you, it happened for you. What are the lessons you can learn from your crucible? Maybe it was mistakes you made. If it was something, loss or something that happened to you, maybe there's the seed of a vision. Maybe you can help people avoid what you went through or recover from the things that you've had to recover from. So, there can be seeds of a vision in that crucible. We want to make sure that that vision lines up with your beliefs and values, that it uses your skills and abilities. And we believe that a vision that's sustainable, that you can persevere through the inevitable setbacks, has to be a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. So there were definitely common elements of vision and passion between what Carey does and what we do.
Yeah, that it is remarkable, that just this notion of a vision statement, it may not be, it's probably more of an impressionist painting than photorealism. You may not figure out, this is what I'm going to do every day for the next 50 years and certain milestones, but you might have a sense as she did that she wanted to help people map out the vision for their lives. She had a vision, she was living her vision. She didn't quite know how to get there but as we say off and on on Beyond the Crucible, what's the first step? What's the first action you need to take? What's the first person you need to sit down and have lunch with? Okay, can I just have an hour of your time, half an hour, I'll buy lunch, but I'd love to learn about what you do and just an informational session. People love to give advice. People love to share what they do to help somebody else, help the younger people.
So yeah, she definitely has a roadmap and a philosophy, and it's just inspiring. And it's tragic what she's been through, but yet she has definitely not let her worst days define her. And it's just inspiring what she does and what she continues to do. And she has fear, she is about to launch in new initiative, an in-person event, and she's fearful, but she's not letting her fear stop her from doing what's on her heart.
Gary Schneeberger:
So until the next time we're together, folks, Warwick and I have a couple of favors to ask you. One, if you've enjoyed this conversation, if you've taken some tidbits away from it, we ask you if you've watched it on YouTube, to subscribe to us on YouTube to Beyond The Crucible and leave a comment. Talk to us about what it is you enjoyed about this conversation with Carey and any of the shows that you may have listened to. And also on your favorite podcast app, please subscribe to the show, you'll never miss one. And let us know, rate the show, let us know what you think about it.
And until that next time that we are together, please remember, we know your crucible experiences are hard. My goodness, we talked about some very hard crucibles that Carey has gone through, but you also heard folks, even devastating crucibles are not the end of your story. They certainly were not the end of Carey's story. In fact, if you apply the lessons and you dive into the things that those very difficult circumstances can teach you, it can lead to the best part of your story because where it takes you is to a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or the Individualist, instead, and uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit Beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
