We can learn a lot from the mistakes we have made. As we say often at Beyond The Crucible, your worst day does not have to define you. You can learn the lessons of your trial, bounce back and move beyond your crucible to live a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.
But what if the mistakes or misfortunes are not directly yours? Perhaps you have grown up in a crucible environment. You may have been raised in an abusive family. One of your parents may have suffered financial failure, had a life-altering illness or physical challenge, or a family member who lost a loved one.
How can other people’s mistakes or misfortunes, whether they were their fault or not, benefit you? It seems reprehensible to even ask that question. We may agree we can learn from our own mistakes and misfortunes, but we can also learn from the mistakes other people made and the misfortunes other people faced. Why wouldn’t we want to learn from what others have gone through? It might help us to avoid facing the same situations; and even if we end up facing them, it might give us more insight into how to handle those situations and bounce back faster.
So how can we learn from and yes even benefit from other people’s mistakes and misfortunes?
1. Hit the reset button. We can’t learn from other people’s adverse situations while we have a sea of emotions and anger towards those people for what they did or for what happened to them. These other people might be your family members who lived their lives in such a way that they hurt themselves and those around them. It might include people you care about who were mistreated or suffered a life altering injury or illness. Either way, before you can learn from other people’s circumstances, you have to separate the often understandable emotions from what happened.
2. Forgive. To be able to learn from and benefit from other people’s situations, you have to forgive them for what they did or forgive others or even God or a higher power that you might blame for what happened to them. Forgiveness does not mean to necessarily condone abhorrent behavior. It is hard to learn from and understand what happened and why unless you can calmly look at the situation.
3. Understand the why. In some situations, there may be reasons that led to the person’s terrible behavior or were factors in the crucible that happened to them. Understanding what may have led that person to make the decisions they did and behave the way they did, can give you some valuable clues as to how you can avoid that behavior.
4. Understand what they might have done differently. Considering how that person could have lived their lives on a different path can be hugely beneficial.
5. Break the cycle. Sadly it is sometimes the case that children who were abused end up abusing their children. This seems unthinkable but sadly this does happen. Forgiving, but not condoning, bad behavior, can help. Understanding why they have acted the way they did can also help. Maybe their parents were abusive. Make a decision that you will not live that way and that your children will not grow up the way you did.
6. Learn the lessons. Consider what lessons you might take from those that might have made poor life decisions, some of which may have affected you. If you had a parent who was an alcoholic, for instance, you might decide not to drink. Perhaps you might feel you have inherited a compulsive personality.
7. Find an anchor for your soul. People who have compulsions such as alcoholism or even abuse are taking out their frustrations on themselves or others. Having an anchor for your soul, such as faith or a spiritual set of beliefs and values, can help you chart a course that is different from family members or friends who might have made poor life choices.
8. Decide to live differently. You might have hit the reset button, forgiven, understood the why, understand what they might have done differently, broken the cycle, learned the lessons and found an anchor for your soul. It is time to not just decide to break free from the past, but to proactively and positively decide how you will live your life and treat others moving forward. You might have grown up amidst generational abuse. Decide today, that the way you will treat your family will be different. You have a plan for how you will be and behave and how you will treat those you love.
Crucibles are tough. For all of us who have gone through them, which is pretty much everybody, we yearn to put them behind us. As we always say here, we do not want our worst day to define us. So we definitely want to learn the lessons from our own crucibles. But there are often so many lessons we can learn from others who have made mistakes and have gone through challenging situations.
We say here at Beyond the Crucible, that our crucibles didn’t happen to us, they happened for us. Perhaps the mistakes that others have made and misfortunes they have faced also happened for us. Perhaps the challenging situations of others can benefit us. They can reduce the chance of us going through that same circumstance. They can offer us lessons if we have faced the same situation. Don’t pass up the opportunity to learn such valuable life-enhancing lessons from the mistakes that others have made and the misfortunes that others have faced.
Reflection
What mistakes that others have made and misfortunes that others have faced can you most learn from?
What lessons do those circumstances have for you?
What specifically will you do in your life so that you will live your life differently?
We share inspirational stories and transformational tools from leaders who have moved beyond life’s most difficult moments to create lives of significance.
We take a look this week at the fourth actionable truth our research has shown us helps you move from trial to triumph: faith.
To effectively move beyond a crucible, we need to have an anchor for our soul, a guiding light for our journey. Something that will keep us on track and in touch with who we really are. That is what we call faith at Beyond the Crucible.
It may include different belief systems, such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism. It could be different philosophical or spiritual ways of thinking. But to withstand the storms of life and the crucibles we may encounter, we have to have an immovable north star that guides us to our life of significance — especially through the challenges we encounter along the way.
“The point,” Warwick says, “is that we need to get in touch with what we believe at our very core.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. When you've gone through a crucible, when you're in the pit of despair, if ever there's a time that you really need to get in touch with what you believe, it's at that time. Because just to get out of the pit, it is tough. Without faith in something, whatever that something means to you, it's going to be extremely difficult to get out of that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Faith. That's the subject we explore this week. Discussing it as the fourth actionable truth on our Beyond the Crucible roadmap, that will lead you from trial to triumph. It's a deep dive discussion of how and why your most cherished beliefs and values, which form the guiding light of your journey through life, are indispensable to getting back up and moving forward, when setbacks and failures knock you for a loop.
Welcome everyone to another episode where we talk about what we call the Beyond the Crucible roadmap. And within the Beyond the Crucible roadmap, what we call our actionable truths. Okay, what does all that mean? Stay tuned, you'll find out in detail what that all means. But here's an overview to kind of get us started as we move. This is our refreshed way at Beyond the Crucible, it's not entirely new, but it is more laser focused, in which we help you get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity.
It's what we've named, as I said, the Beyond the Crucible roadmap. This is how we describe the roadmap, and I always read it right off my sheet here, so I'm going to pull my eyes away from saying, "Hi," to you and I'm going to read this. This is how we describe the roadmap. "How we help people turn their worst day into their greatest opportunity. We provide the essential actionable truths to inspire hope, enable and equip them to write their own life-affirming story." That's what we're all about here, especially as we start talking about actionable truths in our roadmap. The roadmap, you should know, and you do know if you've listened to the previous episodes in this series within the show, as we call it, has been built from our research, our proprietary and statistically valid research, into how people experience crucibles and what it takes to turn trial into triumph.
The most revolutionary news for us through this entire process has been the identification of what I said before and what we're calling the actionable truths of the brand. To pass these life-changing truths along to you, our listeners and viewers, this year, we're going to do something similar to what we did last year with this series within the show concept. Every month, we're going to have one episode like this, it's going to unpack another actionable truth, all through 2025. So if you've missed any of them, you can find them at beyondthecrucible.com, you can find them on your favorite podcast app, you can find them on our YouTube channel. So there's no excuse for not keeping up with the actionable truths. As we do this once per month work, I always start out when we do one of these episodes, just to have you level set us, helps us get in the mood for this, and it helps listeners and viewers know where we're going, is to ask you this question. Why actionable truths? What do we mean by that?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Thanks, Gary. It's a great question. At Beyond the Crucible, we've always been focused on, how do you get beyond your worst day? How do you get out of the pit of despair to lead a life of significance? Which we define as a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. But what we have now is what we're calling Beyond the Crucible roadmap. And that really shows you the journey of how do you go from your trial, your crucible, to triumph, to a life of significance. And what we've found in our research is that there are 10 actionable truths. Well, think of them as catalysts. And they help you move along your journey, from your worst day, to a life affirming vision. That vision, that life affirming vision is, you know you've reached there when you are triumphing and you're living a life of significance. These actionable truths have actually always been implicit in our thinking at Beyond the Crucible, and they're actually in my book, Crucible Leadership. What we've done now is make these 10 actionable truths explicit.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Well, it's fun to do this every time we do one of these episodes, because you get more succinct in the way that you do it, which is great. I think that really helps it stick with folks who are watching and listening. And the second question I always ask when we do one of these episodes is, okay, you've explained what actionable truths are. Now, talk a little bit about how they actually help us move from setback to significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary, these actionable truths, they're really accelerators or enablers that help us to move from crucible or trial, to a life of significance or triumph. You think of it almost like oil in an engine. Without oil, the engine's going nowhere. So you need an accelerator to help you move from extremely challenging circumstances to get beyond it, to live a life-affirming vision, a life of significance. And I think you could make the case, without these actionable truths, you're not going to get out of that pit of despair. You're not going to get beyond your worst day. So these actionable truths, they're enablers, they're accelerators, they're catalysts, but what they are is they're absolutely essential to be able to move beyond your crucible. And that's the whole point of what we do at Beyond the Crucible, is we want everybody, us included, to get beyond your crucible. Without these actionable truths, the beyond doesn't happen.
Gary Schneeberger:
And what I love about the phrase, actionable truth, and it wasn't something that just instantaneously popped in our heads as we were going through the research, right? It took some dialogue and some workshopping and, what exactly are we going to call it? But I think why I'm so happy with where we landed is that neither one of those, actionable or truth, is more important than the other, it doesn't seem like. In other words, truths are great, but if you don't take action on them, they're not really much help to your journey moving forward. They're not much of an accelerator to your point. But if you're just doing a bunch of action and there's no solid truth behind it, that's not going to take you anywhere that you really want to go. So it's just, to me, very, very much an astute way of talking about this. You really have to have those two things together. Truth and action, those two things are going to be what drives you forward, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's a really good point. I mean, think of... Some of my highest values are integrity and humility, and I talk about that quite a bit in the book. So let's pick humility. Let's say that's for you, one of your most important truths. But at work, you come across as sort of this arrogant boss, and my way or the highway with your family. So it's like, that's not really an actionable truth. It's really not a truth. A truth that is really a truth has to be lived out. It has to be actionable. And as you say, you can take a lot of actions, but for what purpose? Where are those actions leading? So a truth is only really a truth in my book, in our book, if it's truth in action. A truth to be a true truth has to be lived out. In other words, has to be actionable.
Gary Schneeberger:
That could go on a bumper sticker. It'd have to be a long bumper. But that's good. I mean, that's a succinct way of putting why these things are so impactful, why these actionable truths are so meaningful. And we have arrived now, folks, at the fourth actionable truth. We began this journey, just to revisit where we've been, we began this journey through our roadmap talking about where the trial begins, and that begins at your crucible. And where it begins to move toward beyond is self-reflection. So those are the first two things that we talked about. Most recently, third episode, we turned to what we have determined is the critical turning point to begin forward motion in changing the circumstances we find ourselves in after a crucible.
That is the second step in which we move into truly processing what we've been through. The first truth in this area of the roadmap, which we discussed last month, was authenticity. And now we move on to what our research and experience has shown us is the next step. And this is going to be a robust discussion, folks, because the next step is... I'm going to call for the drum roll, Warwick. Drum roll. Scott, give it to me. Next step is faith. Warwick, let me ask you right off the bat, why is faith such a critical fourth step after a crucible, to begin the journey of recovering from a crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's a good question. So yeah, as you said, we've discussed how the critical first step after a crucible is some self-reflection. What happened and why? And after self-reflection, we have to be authentic. We have to be authentic to who we truly are. It's not about making others happy, it's just being authentic to our true selves. But after that step, we need to have an anchor for our soul, a guiding light for our journey, something that will keep us on track and in touch with who we really are to the depths of our soul. And that's what we call faith. It's really about being true to your own internal belief and value systems, and not shying away from that. And making sure that that's what's guiding you, not somebody else's belief system.
Or for a lot of people, they live life on autopilot without even thinking about what their belief and values are. And that's living life on autopilot. If you get to where you want to go, that would be called luck. And as some have said, luck is not a plan. Even with the plan, it's not easy. But without any plan, chances of success are low. So let's talk a bit about what we mean by faith at Beyond the Crucible. It could include different belief systems, such as some of the major religions, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism. It could include different philosophical or spiritual ways of thinking. And so the point is, it's not so much what others believe or maybe what we think we should believe. It's about getting in touch with what we believe at our very core. I think it's really important that we get in touch with what we believe.
Again, it's not about what others believe. It's what do we believe at our core. And for many, or at least some, it's not something that maybe people have thought about. But we need to do this internal journey of self-reflection to uncover, well, what do I believe about life and the world? And what are my own most deeply cherished and deeply held values and belief systems?
And frankly, when you've gone through a crucible, when you're in the pit of despair, if ever there's a time that you really need to get in touch with what you believe, it's at that time. Because just to get out of the pit is tough. Without faith in something, whatever that something means to you, it's going to be extremely difficult to get out of that. And as we begin to move out of our crucible, unfortunately, crucibles don't always come in one. Sometimes we can have [inaudible 00:12:44]-
Gary Schneeberger:
Multipacks.
Warwick Fairfax:
... crucibles.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yes, exactly. And obviously we hope that we have a wonderful life, not a crucible life. But even if it's not as big as a crucible we've gone through, there will be speed bumps. And so we need to have a guiding light to withstand the storms of life, an anchor for our soul, a guiding light that will help us chart our way through. Often in life, we'll be faced with challenging decisions. It could be a career, a personal, a life decision. Well, how we make those decisions, in certainly large part, is heavily influenced by our belief and value systems. Where we work, who we work with. Those decisions can be heavily influenced, should be heavily influenced by our beliefs and value system. So you want to get beyond your worst day, that's where if ever there was a time, you've got to really dig down deep and ask yourself, what is it that I believe? What are my most cherished values?
Gary Schneeberger:
What I do every one of these episodes when we talk about an actionable truth, which is usually one word, couple words and phrases maybe, as we go through it, is I pull out the dictionary. And the dictionary I like to pull out is the American Dictionary of the English Language, written by Noah Webster in 1828. His first ever dictionary. And here is what Noah Webster... And he has a lot of definitions of faith in here, but the one that I think hits the most of what you're talking about and how we define it here is, he calls it the object of belief. "A doctrine or system of doctrines believed. A system of revealed truths received." So it's things that... It's a system. System's a great word for this because as you were just describing it, it's how you process certain things that happen to you through the lens of your beliefs and values, which are sort of cocooned up into your faith.
Warwick Fairfax:
That is a really interesting definition. Certainly when you look at any of the major religions we talked about, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, they all have systems of beliefs. They have a way of explaining the world. And I think robust philosophical systems do have that system of beliefs that, at least to the person who believes in it, would seem coherent and helps to make sense of the world. So yeah, I think there's some wisdom there that I guess one question to ask yourself is, how coherent, how systematic is my belief and value system? Is it something that can withstand the storms of life? Is it something that could be an anchor for my soul? Is it something that can help guide me forward? Is this a coherent system? And coherence, at least from my perspective is, it's up to each individual to judge that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. An interesting part of this whole thing, Warwick, is that there are two stages that our research has shown us people experience in this still early section of the roadmap. And the first one is overcoming fear. So this is the processing stage of our Beyond the Crucible roadmap, and this is one of the things people go through, is overcoming fear. How does faith help us to overcome fear?
Warwick Fairfax:
When you're in the midst of a crucible, when you're in the pit of despair, typically you are gripped by mind-numbing, abject fear. And fear tends to prevent us from thinking coherently. It tends to prevent us from moving. You have an image in your mind of being curled up in a ball of just terror and fear. And it could be because something horrendous was done to you. Maybe you've made some mistakes that had huge consequences, and you just feel incredibly guilty or remorseful, and how can anybody forgive me? And we've had people on a crucible, many, who've been in the pit of despair, and they've also, in that pit, been gripped by just tremendous, numbing fear. And so, you can't move forward without dealing with fear. So that's where faith is so important because beliefs and values, they can really give us a guiding light to be able to deal with fear.
Fear doesn't necessarily always go away, but it gives us an ability to make that more manageable. It gives us an ability to make coherent, logical decisions amidst the challenging circumstances that we're going through. One of the things that's interesting as we look back at, I would say many, if not most of our guests that we've had on this podcast, when you go through a crucible, it either strengthens your faith, whatever that means to you, or it weakens it. There's no in-between. Strengthens it or weakens it. Now, the people we've had on our podcast, obviously we want to have guests that we can learn from. So they've gone through a crucible, they've bounced back, they've found a way to get beyond their crucible, and they're living lives of significance, lives on purpose dedicated to serving others. So those that have got beyond their crucible, I would say in every case, their faith has been strengthened.
And obviously, what that means depends on the individual and what faith and belief system they happen to embrace. But I can't think of anybody that said, "Yes, I had strong faith before and it vanished during the crucible." Sometimes there are setbacks and people feel like, for instance, how could a loving God allow this to happen to me? Or how could a loving God forgive what I've done? Yes, you can go through those periods. But whatever the faith system might mean to them, it's really... It's been strengthened. So I think what all this says, when you look at my story, Gary's story or the stories of everybody I think that I can think of, that we've had on our podcast, is that faith is actually strengthened by a crucible, for those that get beyond it. So to get beyond your worst day, to get out of the pit of despair, faith is absolutely indispensable.
Gary Schneeberger:
And this idea of overcoming fear, I don't think that means... I mean, experience has told me it doesn't mean, okay, I'm not afraid anymore. Fear's gone, everything's fine, right? I mean, overcoming fear really means having the fortitude, having the bravery, having the wherewithal to push through the fear and deal with the fear. It's not like it cancels it out and it never crops up. What faith allows you to do is walk through the fear of the fires, the crucibles, the things that happen to you. That's a fair assessment, right? We're not talking about wiping fear out forever, canceling it out. We're talking about getting through fear, getting past fear, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Somebody said that, "Courage is the ability to move forward even when you're gripped with fear." People who are brave, and I've never been in the military, but when you hear stories of those who have, and they've taken heroic action that maybe it leads to the Congressional Medal of Honor in the US for instance, if you ask them, "So were you afraid?" They say, "Absolutely, I was terrified. But because of my buddies, because of the other soldiers in my unit, I had to do what I could to save them, to do what I could to make sure we got through this very challenging circumstance." So they made choices to be brave, even though they were afraid. That is the essence of bravery. And so I think with faith, it gives you tools.
Like for me and my Christian faith, when I get fearful, and I'm certainly as fearful as anybody, there might be scriptures I call to mind, like 1 Peter 5:7, "Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you." I mean, there's a number of scriptures that talk about anxiety and fear. And so for me, they do help. Doesn't mean it all goes away, but it enables me to move forward. So having a system of beliefs and faith, it doesn't necessarily make fear go away, but it helps you make positive steps forward in the face of fear. So that's why faith is important. So it's an important distinction that you made.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Well, thank you. The second point that comes up when we're going through a crucible in the processing phase, and that is committing to change. That's something that we have to do if we're going to get beyond our crucible in this stage. Talk a bit about how we commit to change and how faith helps us do that.
Warwick Fairfax:
To get beyond our worst day, to get beyond a crucible, we have to make a commitment to change. We have to make a commitment to get out of that pit. What one small step are we going to make? And that's where I think faith can be very helpful. We need to really dig down deep into our beliefs and values, make that commitment that our faith will be an anchor for our soul, a light in the darkness. And it's really clinging to that faith more deeply than you ever have, that will help you make those minute, even micro steps forward, step by step.
Again, from my perspective, whether it be, "Lord, I just need enough courage to make this one step, to make this phone call, to apologize, to do what I'm convinced you want me to do, just give me the strength to do it. I just need... I'm not asking for strength tomorrow. I'm not even asking for strength this afternoon. I just need strength today, right now, in this minute, to make this step that I know is right to the depths of my soul." So faith can be very practical in guiding the path we make. And really, for faith to be actionable, it can't be just something that's on a bumper sticker or even a nice scripture on a wall, as much as scripture can be helpful. That has to be something that you use. It needs to guide every decision and every action that you make.
Gary Schneeberger:
And you mentioned a couple of the scriptures. One that comes to mind here for me, and again, what I love about this scripture is you don't have to believe in... You don't have to be a Christian to hear it in the context of what we're talking about here, why this is important. And I think of James 2:26. All right. "Faith without works is dead." Now there's a context for that in Christianity for sure, but just in what we're talking about, right? Faith, the value system that is your guiding light, without works, without acting on it, is no good. It's dead. So I think that scriptural truth in Christianity can be extrapolated out to everything we're talking about here, right? That faith as we've defined it here, without works, without action, is dead, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And yeah, I love that scripture in James. You could say about this whole series of podcasts we're covering, that truths, without them being actionable, are dead.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's a direct correlation to what we're saying. And it's true. You say you believe a bunch of things. Like, "Hey, my values are humility, integrity. But nobody thinks I'm humble. They think I'm arrogant, integrity. I say what's convenient to get the job done, and it doesn't matter whether it's true. I just live a life to help maximize my own success, and truth is optional. If truth serves me, great. If it doesn't, I lie. It's all about winning." Okay, well, that's not living a life of integrity. In that case, the integrity is relatively dead to you. Humility is relatively dead. As other people would say that on the whole, yes, he or she has brief glimpses of integrity and humility, but really over the course of the last 20, 30 years that I've known them, those are glimpses. And by and large, they lack humility and lack integrity. You don't want that to be you. So it is great to have values and beliefs, but you've got to live them. Otherwise, what's the point? They're not actionable and they're dead in a sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, speaking of people who live actionable truths and who live by faith, I love this part of this series within the show here, Warwick, this is where we take a look at... And part of the reason I love it is I get to call... I get to refer to Warwick, our host, as patient zero in Beyond the Crucible. Because his crucibles were the seeds that grew the brand. So we always take time in episodes on the roadmap, talking about the actionable truths, to talk to Warwick about his experience with them. And so, I'll ask you this question, Warwick. How did Faith help you begin to move beyond your crucible?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's an interesting question. I grew up in Sydney, Australia, in the Anglican Church. We didn't go that often. We were more sort of Christmas and Easter kind of Christians. It's funny, as I sometimes say, I know in the Catholic Church, which my wife grew up in, you can use the term Catholic guilt. And you shuffle into church on holidays and all that kind of thing, and feel a bit guilty. There's no such thing as guilt in the Anglican Church. The pastor, the reverend is just happy to see you. So what could be better? No guilt.
They're just happy to see you. So anyway, so I grew up in the Anglican Church, and what's interesting is there's really a great story of faith in my family. My great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax, the founder of the family's a 150-year-old media business in Australia, he was a man of great faith. He was an elder in his church, a wonderful husband, wonderful father. He absolutely lived his faith. Pretty much every nonprofit that existed at the time in Sydney, was either founded by him or significantly funded by him. If ever there was somebody that lived their faith, that their truths were truly actionable in his life, it was him. So for him, faith in Christ was the anchor for his soul, the guiding light of everything he did.
Now as generations wore on, I think faith was important, but it became a bit more traditional. Maybe not quite so Christ-centered or evangelical, so to speak. And my father definitely had a faith, but as I said, it wasn't really as evangelical as John Fairfax's. He was a very philosophical person. He would write books, trying to make a synthesis between different religions, and definitely thought deeply about religion and philosophy. Now, my mother, her family were Jewish, but they were not religious. They were Zionists. And as I've heard explained, Zionists at the time, were concerned about the founding of the state of Israel, which it didn't happen until I think about 1948.
So they were more political than religious. My mother though, she did believe in God. It's interesting, she studied chemistry at the University of Sydney. And she would look at the table of elements and would say, "If you look at just the perfection of those elements, about how it was all designed, you cannot but believe that there is a God." She may not have had maybe a Christ-centered perspective, given her Jewish upbringing, but she absolutely believed that there was a God, there was a creator, no question. So growing up, I did believe that there was a God, but I wouldn't say it was the animating or driving force of my life. So while I was at Oxford, during my last term there, last semester, a friend of mine invited me to an evangelical Anglican church. And he invited me a few times, but it was Sunday and I really wasn't that interested. And I was never anti-faith, it just wasn't a central part of my life.
So I attended this church, and they sang Christian choruses. The sermons were incredible. And this was just before my last semester. So one of the things I heard at church is, there was going to be a retreat for Oxford and Cambridge students at this Anglican retreat center, on the Devon Coast, in sort of the south of England, south-west coast of England. And so, I was there studying for my final exams. I needed a break for a week. And it was during that retreat that I heard people give testimonies, sermons, singing Christian choruses. And so it was during that retreat that I made a profession of faith in Christ, and it's been the driving animating force of my life ever since.
And I definitely needed that anchor for my soul. As listeners have heard, in 1987, I launched a 2.25 billion dollar takeover of my family's media business. Part of the reason for that was that I wanted to restore the values of the company to the beliefs and ideals of the founder, John Fairfax. I mentioned a person of great faith. And it was more not to have Christian editorials. Although, as an interesting sidelight, we as a family didn't really determine editorials, at least not through most of the time that I was growing up. But Christmas and Easter, there was a Christian editorial. They must've got some pastor somewhere to write them, which is amazing since day-to-day, it didn't come across that way in the news columns. But in any case, I wanted, in terms of how people were treated, and just the fairness in reporting to be in line with that kind of his worldview in a sense.
Well, three years later, after the takeover, the company had to file for bankruptcy in 1990. The company had too much debt. So those were tough years, after the takeover failed in the nineties, I felt like I let my father down, my parents, other family members, even the thousands of employees at the company. In some strange way, because we had the major opinion leaders of the country, The Sydney Morning Herald, The Age in Melbourne, The Australian Financial Review, which is sort of like the Wall Street Journal here, in some ways, I even felt like I let down the nation of Australia.
The worst part about it for me was, I felt like God had a plan to resurrect the company in the image of the founder. I was a believer in Christ. Therefore, it would seem to be pretty clear to me that God's plan was for me to be part of that as some leading figure. So in some strange way, I felt like I'd let God down, which when you let down your most cherished beliefs and values, that's about as crippling as it can be to any human being. So when you're faced with that kind of crucible, which was devastating to me, you either abandon your faith or you dig down deep further into your faith. And that's what I did. I sort of clung to my faith like a, I don't know, drowning man on a ship amidst a storm. I mean, I was ever tighter. I never... Some people blame God when bad things happen.
In my case, a lot of it was because of my own naivety and stupid decisions. And yes, there was infighting in the family going back generations. But yeah, I felt like that was all me, or a lot of me, and then poor decisions and other family members. So I never blamed God for that, at least in my case. But I came from my perspective, to realize that God loves us unconditionally. He didn't need my stuff and all the things maybe I could have done. But God doesn't measure our significance in terms of size. It's not about whether you save your nation or save your town or... It could be just being at a local nonprofit, or how you treat your employees or fellow workers or family members. We talk about the size of the significance doesn't matter. I think God looks at it the same way, from my perspective. So that was helpful as I kind of realized maybe my belief system wasn't as systematic as it should have been, and I was making errors in my systematic theology, so to speak, and how I looked at God.
And so I don't look at it in the same way about all the things I'm going to do for him, which it's more about, "Lord, what is it you want me to do?" And let me get on board with his plan, is more my perspective these days. So really the bottom line is, through the years afterwards, my faith in Christ did become the anchor to my soul, the guiding light that's helped me chart my way forward beyond my crucible. There have been a number of instances in my life which I felt like God has given me a lot of wisdom.
So one such example for me was, in the nineties, through the early two thousands, I was working in an aviation services company in Maryland, and I was doing business and financial analysis. And I was doing well, and I got good performance reviews, which is good. But I just felt like... There's a passage in the Old Testament, talks about God's still, small voice. God didn't always speak in the mountains or the storms, but just through that still, small voice. And I just felt that, just that sense that God was telling me, "Warwick, you're playing small. You're not using all your gifted abilities for me, that you could." And there's this phrase, you know when you know. And I was convinced... It wasn't about arrogance, it's just about, it doesn't honor God or your belief system, to hide your skills and abilities and your passions.
And so I quit my job. And through a coach that helped me with mid-career coaching, I became a certified executive coach. That led to eventually me writing my book, Crucible Leadership, after a talk in church, and to this podcast. But that was a moment where faith was absolutely critical, that it was really, as one of our guests have said, Michael Lindsay, President of Taylor University, he wrote a book, Hinge Moments.
That was a hinge moment for me when I felt like God saying, "You are playing small." So my decisions was directly guided by this actionable truth of faith. It led me to make a life-changing decision. I wasn't in a crucible. Life wasn't terrible. But it helped me make a very wise decision. When I look at where I am now, I just feel like I'm being so blessed. And a huge part of that is my faith. And for me, it's my faith in Christ. I'm an elder in an evangelical church, where I just love being a part of. I was on the board of my kids' Christian school for many years. I'm involved with Taylor University, a Christian university where my kids went. And one of the things I believe is, whatever your faith and belief system is, it's good to have systems... Back to the Noah Webster thought, maybe philosophy, if you will.
It's good to have systems to make that truth actionable in your life. So for me, I have systems in place. I believe in systems and rhythms. So I want to make sure that my faith in Christ is central to everything that I do. So I read my Bible each day. I pray regularly. I'm in a variety of groups with other people of faith in my church. And so all of those systems, scripture memory is something that I do. Depending on what I'm going through, I try to call them to mind to help center my soul. So I want to ensure that my faith guides every decision that I make. And so, whatever your faith and belief system is, it doesn't have to be mine, it doesn't have to be Gary's, it doesn't have to be your parents' and friends', but whatever that is, you've got to have practices you put in place, so that you are getting in touch with your belief system.
It could be journaling, it could be meditating, it could be talking with friends who share your belief system, whatever that is, you've got to have systems and practices in place to make sure that your faith, whatever that means to you, is actionable. And in that way, it not only helps you get beyond your crucible, it helps you make wise, spirit-led decisions each day. Which is to me, critical to getting to a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
I haven't thought about this until you've just told that story of how faith has been your guiding light, has been your guiding beacon as you've gone through crucibles. Not just the big one, the $2.25 billion one, but other ones that have come up. And you've used the word several times in our conversation about the actionable truths in the three episodes we've done before this and this one, about how these actionable truths are accelerators. And what's interesting to me is, hearing you tell your story from stem to stern, in terms of crucibles like you just did, they're not just accelerators that get you to really, really good places, right? They're also accelerators that get you beyond bad places, right? I mean, it's not just the final few good steps to cross the finish line. It's those sloggy steps that you have to take to get off the starting gate, right? The actionable truths help you at any point along the journey. And that's why the roadmap concept is so valuable, I think. Right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's a great point. Just to kind of dwell on what you're saying for a moment. In those dark days in the nineties, especially the early nineties, some of those truths, like Philippians 3 as I've mentioned, "Forgetting what is behind, as turning toward what is ahead, I press on toward the gulf, which Christ Jesus has called me heavenward." Earlier on, I think it's Philippians 3:7-14 that says, "I counted as rubbish the things in the past compared to the passing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord."
So basically, when I was going through those moments of not clinical depression, but depression or feeling terrible about myself, and how could I have been so dumb? I was a Harvard MBA, how could I have assumed that other family members wouldn't have sold out at the takeover? One of many really incredibly dumb decisions I made, those scriptures, that belief system helped me say, "Okay, the most important thing to me is my faith. Yes, I've made poor decisions. I recognize that. I acknowledge that. It wasn't all my fault, but I recognize that. I'm going to move beyond that. I'm going to forget what's behind. The notion that God loves me unconditionally, he doesn't need my stuff. He doesn't need the family media business per se. That he loves me for who I am." Psalm 139, "We're beautifully and wonderfully made." So all of those scriptures, all of those biblical truths, at least as I see it, helped me baby step by baby steps say, "Okay, I'm going to move beyond my crucible. I'm not going to continually self-flagellate and keep beating myself up for poor decisions."
Certainly a significant amount were my fault, but I was in a very difficult situation with family infighting going back decades. So it was a very challenging situation. I was able to look at it more objectively. So in those dark days, that belief system helped me step by step, change my perspective, which then helped me to move on. But if you're in that self-flagellating, every problem in the world, every sin that's ever been is all my fault, you can get really despondent, really angry at yourself, and just feel like, "I'm worthless." Obviously, to the extreme, bad things happen when you have that kind of perspective. But a solid belief system can help you combat those negative thoughts and start having thoughts that are helpful. Thoughts beget actions. You've got to have right thoughts to have right actions. And so in those early nineties, changing the way I thought, forgetting the past, nothing is more important than, to me, faith in Christ.
And obviously you've got to live that out. But clinging to power, money, not that those really issues for me, but even, family business, my sense of significance was a lot in the family business and the wonderful things it did for Sydney and Australia. So yeah, it's like, you got to let that go. Your sense of significance is not even in good things. It's about in some higher power. In my case, faith in God. So it was very practical for me in those early days in the nineties, changing my perspective bit by bit, so that I would not think, "Oh, look what I did." It's like, "Okay, that's in the past. Let's forget what's behind and move forward."
It wasn't one and done. I had to go back to the well many, many, many, many times. But little bit by little bit, it was life-transforming. Didn't happen overnight. But like a lot of things, "The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step," that ancient Chinese proverb. I mean, that's true. You just make one step of faith, one change in perspective, and eventually, your perspective in your life changes. But it does start with having a belief system that you cling to, that helps you move forward.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, there you go. Naturally coming to a place where you've landed the plane on the conversation in a good spot for folks to help them understand that actionable truth and this particular actionable truth of faith, can serve you when things are at their worst and can serve you on the precipice of things at their best. It truly is something that serves you all along the road that we've built the roadmap for. So as people, as listeners and viewers think about this episode, what's the one big takeaway you hope they come away with to help them on their journey to a life of significance?
Warwick Fairfax:
Crucibles are extremely tough. They're tough to go through, they're tough to survive. Both Gary and I know that. Both Gary and I have gone through very challenging crucibles. But to get beyond our worst state, we need to have faith. And again, what we mean by faith is a belief and value system, that's an anchor for our souls, that's a guiding light as we seek to move forward. Now, that belief and value system, it's not about what others believe, parents, friends, neighbors, what we think we should believe.
It has to be authentically ours. It's not something that could be inherited just because you grew up in some belief system, whatever that may be. So you've got to do the inner work. We talk a lot about the inner soul work. You've got to do the inner work to understand, what is it that I believe and value? What are my most cherished belief and values? And let me own that. Let me not run away from that. Let me cling to it as tightly as I can, because only in that way can we get beyond our worst day. I'd say in summary, to get beyond a crucible, faith is absolutely indispensable.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, wow, that was a quick summation. And I've got another question because what you said when you were talking about that right there, you said that, "The belief and value system must be authentically yours, authentically ours." And that just makes me think, all of these actionable truths that... So far we've talked about actionable truths of self-reflection, authenticity, and now faith. All of those are sort of freestanding things, right? Self-reflection is a thing of and by itself, and it can mean different things to different people. Authenticity, a self-standing thing. Faith is an existing thing.
But to make these work for you, they have to become actionable as well. So the actionable truths get you beyond your crucible. They're universal truths, yes, but you have to adopt them as unique to you in order to make them work for you, right? Does that make sense? This idea of... Even authenticity, which is something by itself, you have to lean into whatever authenticity is for you, and that's going to help you get propelled forward to triumph from trial. And as we go through this, I suspect that all of the actionable truths that we talk about, the truth is universal, but the action has to be conformed to us as individuals. Is that fair?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's very well said Gary. And I think it also means it's not going to be easy. It's going to require a lot of work. You go through your worst day, whether something terrible happened to you, or you did something terrible, or you're in an incredibly difficult situation, it's going to require a lot of self-reflection. How do I forgive myself? How do I forgive others? Which as we often say, it doesn't mean condoning, but without forgiveness, you're sort of trapped in a prison, if you will. How do I get beyond this? How do I learn the lessons from this? That requires a huge amount of work for that actionable truth of self-reflection.
Authenticity, a lot of people spend a lifetime being somebody else, who they think they should be or what's going to sell in the company they work with, or the friends they're with, are going to be the cool people. But being authentic, the true you without the mask, that's pretty scary. As we've said before, it's one thing to reject the mask, it's another thing to reject the true authentic Warwick or Gary, whoever you are. So that requires courage and a lot of work. Same with faith. It's again, not about what everybody else thinks, but you've got to do a lot of work to say and to explore, "Well, what is it I truly believe about the world? And what are my inherent beliefs and value systems? And how will they guide me moving forward?" Many people don't spend a lot of time thinking about, "Well, what do I believe about the world?" It's like, "I don't know. I just make decisions every day and see what happens." Well, I would suggest that that's not really a good plan.
Because that means that making good decisions is as much luck as anything else. I mean, maybe you have an instinct about what the right thing to do is, but why not make that instinct explicit? Know exactly why you should make decisions the way you feel you should. But that requires, just as it does with self-reflection, authenticity, a lot of inner soul work to get in touch with, what do I really believe to my core? What value systems make sense to me? And what systems and practices am I going to put in place to help make sure that every decision I make is in line with my faith, with my belief and value systems? That requires a lot of work. People tend not to do the inner work. They tend to focus on the outer work. We've said this so many times. The inner work precedes the outer work. And certainly one of the most critical elements of that inner work is getting in touch with your faith, your belief and value systems. It's absolutely critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
And just to put a bow on this idea of how all the actionable truths, they're universal in the sense that the truth is universal, the actionable part of it has to be unique to you. It makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Because your crucible is unique to you. So if your crucible's unique to you, the path back from your crucible has to be unique to you too, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Indeed. Well said.
Gary Schneeberger:
All right. Well folks, I love it when Warwick says, "Well said." That means I've done something right. So I'm feeling good about that authentically. That does bolster my faith that I sort of sometimes know what I'm doing here as the co-host of the show. This is just the fourth actionable truth that we're going to talk about this year in 2025. Each month, we'll take a look at a new one and how it's connected to the previous one, to build out the roadmap, the Beyond the Crucible roadmap. And next time, we are going to be discussing... Scott, I'm going to wake you up, drum roll please. We'll be discussing character. That's where we're going next month, we're going to talk about character. So until the next time we're together, Warwick and I have a couple of favors to ask you, or ask of you. If you're watching this on YouTube, we'd ask you to subscribe to our channel, and to leave a comment on what you thought about this conversation, what you think about the show in general.
If you're listening on your favorite podcast app, we would ask you to subscribe, so that you don't miss an episode. And then rate the show. What do you think about the show? And until we are together the next time, please remember this. We want you to believe these truths that we talk about, but we also want you to act on them. Because that's what's going to help you move along the roadmap from trial to triumph. And we will see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like, The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment, and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
Lauren Burns was 7 years old when her father, a Jordanian national divorced from her mother when she was just a few weeks old, kidnapped her and took her to his homeland. His plan was to raise her there.
But Lauren’s Mom fought tirelessly and valiantly to bring her back home to America. The details of how she succeeded in being reunited with her daughter, told here in edge-of-your-seat detail, feature a clandestine rescue operation led by former U.S. military operatives and what Lauren describes as miracles that not only got her home but also fueled her Chistian faith.
To learn more about Lauren Burns, visit www.laurenburns.net
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.
Lauren Burns:
Standing at that payphone, she called the headquarters. And when the woman answered, she said, "Do you have a Lauren and an Ali on your flight reservation?" And then the lady said, "Ma'am, I can't give out that kind of information." And then my mom's voice changed and she said, "Please, I think my ex-husband has taken my daughter. Can you please help me?"
And the lady put my mom on hold. She came back on the line and she said, "Yes, I have a Lauren and an Ali arriving in Amman, Jordan this evening." And that was the moment she knew that my dad had taken me. He had kidnapped me and taken me to Jordan.
Gary Schneeberger:
The story told by our guest this week, Lauren Burns, is both harrowing and inspiring. A testament to the love and faith of a mother to battle fiercely to rescue her daughter. Just how Lauren's mom did it, every detail of which you'll hear in this episode, is so amazing a TV movie was made of it. And every bit as powerful as Lauren's bounce back from her emotional devastation she experienced in the wake of being taken by her father.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, Lauren, it's so exciting to have you here. I love just getting to know a bit about your story, which we'll unfold here. And obviously you're a physical therapist, but you have a whole website and you have a podcast, your Redeemed Podcast. And I love just some of the things on your website, "Overcoming adversity and inspiring hope. Join me on the journey of redemption." I love that word. Redemption is a wonderful word, and your story really is one of redemption.
So before we get to the Crucible, let's talk about how you grew up, which in some ways it was challenging from day one. It wasn't a typical upbringing from, I don't know, several weeks into your life. It wasn't normal, so to speak. So just tell us a bit about what life was like growing up, about your parents. And I think as we'll see, some of the seeds of the challenges that would unfold were there from the beginning.
Just maybe it wasn't obvious. Anyway, why don't you just unpack a bit about some of those early years and early memories?
Lauren Burns:
Sure. I love to. I always say my life started like a hot mess. It was a hot mess. I mean, it was. By the time I was six weeks old, my mom was filing for a divorce. Who wants to do that? My parents met in Texas. My father is from Jordan, near Israel, and he's Muslim. And he moved to Dallas to go to school. My mom is a Christian from Florida, so maybe the red flags are already going off like, this isn't going to work out. And they were both working at the same restaurant.
She was waiting tables, he was a cook, and they fell in love. When you're like 19, 20, you're not thinking about all the things of the future. So four years into their marriage, my mom became pregnant with me. And all of a sudden, my father told my mom that he had to go to Jordan because his father was sick, and my mom didn't think anything of it. She's like, "Okay, go to Jordan, take care of your dad."
And weeks turned into three months, and he was gone for three months. So I was my mom's first child, and there she was in her young 20s. Her closest friends were the only people that were with her. She didn't have family with her in Texas, and she thought she had been abandoned. And I actually came six weeks early because of all the stress that my mom was going through.
My father came back right before I was born, and he looked very different. He was dressed in the traditional Jordanian clothing. He had a prayer rug and he was praying. And he told my mom that he had gone to Jordan to make a home for us. He had found a job. He had found a place for us to live. And this was the first time my mom ever heard any of this.
So of course, she was like, "I never wanted to leave the United States, let alone go to Jordan. So no." So that's why my life started out like a hot mess. And my mom started filing for divorce, and the papers were done by the time I was about six weeks old.
Warwick Fairfax:
It almost seems like, as you're talking, when he went to Jordan for three months, it seems like there was a bit of a change. He went from more of a Western style clothing to... It would certainly seem like he got more serious about his Muslim faith. In hindsight, does that seem like something changed in your dad when he went back to Jordan?
Lauren Burns:
My belief is that all of a sudden he's about to be a father. And when you're about to be a parent... I can even use myself as an example. When I got married and had my first child, I was like, "I got to get back into church. I need to stop flip-flopping around, and I need to get back into my Bible study and be consistent because I've got a responsibility." I believe that that was what was going on with my dad.
It's like all of a sudden he's like, "Oh, I got to get myself together and go back to my roots. And this is the way I'm supposed to raise my daughter, and I need to bring my wife along." I can't speak for him, but it was a drastic change. So much so that my mom was in love with my dad. They had a good marriage. And then everything changed in the blink of an eye.
And my mom knew enough about her faith and she went back to her roots because that's what we do. We dive in deep when we need to hit our knees in prayer, right? It's like, "God, what's happening? I need you." And that's what happened. And so it drew my mom closer to God. And my mom and I, we started our life. As a kid of divorce, going between two homes, two totally different homes, but I was well loved in both homes.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's interesting that your mom... How old was she when she had you?
Lauren Burns:
She was about 24 years old. 23, 24.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, young, but not too young. But what's interesting is I understand that she was no pushover, because from what I understand, your dad had views about your name and other things and where you would live. So just talk about how your mom handled it. because she wasn't like this,, "Oh, whatever you say, honey, and let's go." Just I find admirable, because not all women in that situation would have stood up the way she did. So just talk about how your mom stood up that had an impact right from birth.
Lauren Burns:
I'm glad you said that because God knows what we're going to go through way before we do. He knows the kind of mom you need, the kind of father you need. He knows the friendships that you need. And God gave me a very brave, strong-willed woman of faith as my mom. And yes, when my dad came back, she could have been fearful, like you said, and just gone along with it.
But instead, she was mad, mad that he had left her. All those emotions that were going on. And she stood up and she's like, "No, I'm not going to let you... I want Lauren to have an American name." He wanted me to have an Arabic name. He was pinning little charms on me that was all in Arabic and the gold bracelets and necklaces and things like that. And so from the beginning, it was like a spiritual warfare over my life, honestly.
And my mom never gave up. So she has always been a business woman, very successful. And she started a journey on us living... We moved out and she lived with a woman by the name of Joyce. She became my Aunt Joyce. And she was actually working with Beverly and Rick Lambert are Miranda Lambert's parents, the country singer/songwriter Miranda Lambert.
And my mom was actually working with Miranda's grandmother at an apartment complex. And Miranda's grandmother, they all knew what was going on, that my mom was a young mother with an infant trying to figure out how to pay for diapers and formula. And so Wanda said, "Hey, Cathy, I know this woman that lives in the apartments as well, and she's a single woman, doesn't have a child, but she loves children. I want to introduce you."
And we ended up living with her. My Aunt Joyce stepped in and helped raise me. She was a part of my life until she passed away. And she was like a second mother to me. And again, God was providing all these people to come alongside and help raise me and prepare for what we were going to be going through in the years to come.
Warwick Fairfax:
But what's interesting to me is as I understand the story, obviously mom stood up to your dad and said, "No, we want to stay here." She probably took you to church and probably things like that, I'm assuming, and gave you the name she wanted, Lauren. But it wasn't like it was so bad. It's not like you didn't have any relationship with your dad. And he remarried. So talk a bit about the pre-major crucible. Life didn't seem to be... It was challenging, but it didn't seem to be terrible from a kid's point of view, right?
Lauren Burns:
Correct.
Warwick Fairfax:
Because you didn't know all the backstory. So talk a bit about going from mom to your dad and just your dad's new family. So talk about how all that worked out.
Lauren Burns:
That is all I knew. I mean, that's all I knew was a life of two different homes. And my parents got along really well. Like you said, I didn't see the details of the strife. I saw all the good. Anytime I wanted to go see my dad, I could. I saw him every other weekend. My mother had full custody of me, but she wanted me to have a relationship with my dad. He was loving and kind, and he was a good father.
I call him the Disney dad. We would go to the movies on the weekends and go do all the fun things. He remarried to a woman, her family's from the Middle East, but was raised in the United States. And so they had children. So I got to be a big sister. So every other weekend I get to go hang out with my little brother and little sister. It was a different feel because they had a bigger family.
And then the other weekends, it was just my mom and I. We would do our chores together, get the apartment cleaned up, go do the fun things with the two of us. So I had a great bond with... Because my mom and I, it was just the two of us, so we were like best friends. And then I go experience my dad's house with their family and their traditions. And so I just went back and forth between two different places.
When my dad took me to the mosque, I thought at that young of an age, I was praying to Jesus in a different language. I didn't know. I didn't grasp the difference. So life was good and it's all I knew. I didn't know anything else, but that.
Warwick Fairfax:
This is really probably the biggest crucible. From what I understand, it was a Halloween weekend and you were looking forward to trick or treating. And I think you went as a cheerleader, I think you said, which is obviously for young girls going to be pretty exciting, right? So talk a bit about what you thought this was going to be a really special Halloween, but it was a bit different than you would expect. So talk about that story and what unfolded.
Lauren Burns:
Yes, I was very excited. My dad had asked my mom if I could spend an extra night so I could go trick or treating with him and my siblings. And my mom said, "Of course. Yes, no problem." Just make sure that I got to school that Monday. Usually he would take me back home on Sunday. So he came to pick me up from my mom's house, and I had my suitcase all packed up ready to go and got in the car.
And it was just my dad and I. My stepmother at the time, she was pregnant with their third child. She was not with us. My siblings were not with us. And my dad just turned and looked at me and said, "I have a big surprise for you." And I was like, "Yes. We're going to go trick or treating." And he said, "No. Actually we are going to the airport. I'm taking you on a big trip to go to Jordan to meet your family."
Well, I began to ask all the questions. I was like, "My mom never told me anything about going to Jordan. She said you were taking me to school on Monday. I have my backpack. Are you sure she knows about this? Where's my siblings? Where's my stepmom?" My father told me that my stepmother could not travel because she was pregnant. Well, I didn't know that that wasn't true.
All those years I thought that if you're pregnant, you can't travel. You're going to lose the baby. I didn't know. And he just kept saying my mom didn't want to ruin the surprise. She knows. It's okay, Lauren. Don't worry. You'll see. You're going to be excited. This is going to be a big adventure. And he just continued to drive towards the airport. And my father and I got on an airplane.
And that same day I know that the Holy Spirit was already working in my mom's life, even though she didn't know what was about to happen. Like I said, my mom was a single mom. And it's really hard to stop your day, whether you're a single mom or working mom or whatever, it's hard to stop your day and go have lunch with your child. It was very out of the ordinary for my mom.
She'd never did that kind of thing. But that Monday she went to go have lunch with me at my elementary school. My mom was scanning, looking for me, and all the kids are lining up to go to the lunchroom and she doesn't see me anywhere. And the teacher catches her eye and she comes over and begins to tell my mom that I never came to school that day.
And my mom was like, "What do you mean that Lauren never came to school?" And she said, "Well, your ex-husband never dropped her off." And so my mom, of course, was mad. The first emotion was she was mad. That was the last thing she told my dad is make sure Lauren gets to school. So this is in the '80s. There's no cell phone. She goes over to the payphone and she dials my dad's house and the phone rings and rings and nobody answers.
Then she dials his restaurant. Him and his brother owned a restaurant in the Dallas area, and they told my mom that my dad had never arrived to work. He didn't go to work that day. Well, that anger changed to fear. And in that moment, again, it's like the Holy Spirit started talking to my mom. My mom had gone to Jordan nine years before this happened right before they had gotten married to meet my father's family.
And she remembered that the main airlines into Amman was back then it was called the Royal Alia Airlines and their headquarters were in New York. Standing at payphone, she called the headquarters. And when the woman answered, she said, "Do you have a Lauren and Ali on your flight reservation?" And then the lady said, "Ma'am, I can't give out that kind of information."
And then my mom's voice changed and she said, "Please, I think my ex-husband has taken my daughter. Can you please help me?" And the lady put my mom on hold. She came back on the line and she said, "Yes, I have a Lauren and Ali arriving in Amman, Jordan this evening." And that was the moment she knew that my dad had taken me. He had kidnapped me and taken me to Jordan.
Warwick Fairfax:
So you're now in Amman, Jordan. You got off the plane. And what happened next with you and what happened next with your mom and her next steps?
Lauren Burns:
Like I said, I had never gone to Jordan before. I didn't know how to speak Arabic. I knew very little.
Warwick Fairfax:
I'm sorry, how old were you again at the time?
Lauren Burns:
I was seven.
Warwick Fairfax:
Wow.
Lauren Burns:
Seven years old. This was 1987 when he took me. I knew very little Arabic, and I didn't understand the cultural differences. That was the biggest shock to me. Because like I said, my father was very loving and kind. I felt like I was the apple of his eye. I felt like I was his princess when I was with him in Dallas. But in Jordan, I didn't understand that there were rules and there were clear lines of what men are supposed to do and what women are supposed to do.
The women take care of the children, they take care of the home, and the men work or do other things. And so I felt very alone because I didn't recognize my father. I didn't know who this man was. He wasn't as loving. He wasn't tucking me in at night. He wasn't helping me get dressed and reading me stories. He was letting my aunts and my grandmother do those things, which I didn't really know them.
They spoke English, but mainly Arabic. And so I was in a different country, different customs, different language, different food, everything. It was a culture shock for me. That is where I would cover my hair and I didn't understand why I had to cover my hair. I would go to the mosque, and it was very traditional. I didn't understand why I couldn't go pray with my dad.
I'm like at church, we can pray anywhere. We can pray in the car. We can pray in our closet. We can pray wherever. So it was total culture shock. And I wanted my mom. But even if I couldn't have my mom, I wanted my stepmom. I needed someone that I could feel safe with because I didn't really recognize my father, and I couldn't even have my stepmom with me and I couldn't have my little siblings with me, and I didn't understand why.
Warwick Fairfax:
And I'm assuming at the mosque, which you would have gone regularly now that you're in Jordan and your dad is around, his family, was in Arabic. Probably some of the conversations were in Arabic as just the whole culture at church. You probably started going to a school, I'm guessing.
Lauren Burns:
Yes. Yes. When I started going to school, I knew it wasn't vacation. I mean, any seven-year-old knows that. So that's when I knew that this wasn't right. I would ask, "Can I talk to my mom?" And my dad would push me off, "Later, Lauren. Later. She's asleep. The times are different. We have to wait. We have to wait." But when I started going to school is really when the fear really came in.
Some of the things that were really traumatic, the bathrooms were different. It was a hole in the floor with a chain above, and for a seven-year-old little girl to use a bathroom to squat over a little hole. They didn't use toilet paper. You had to clean yourself with your hand. I was afraid of the bathroom, to be honest. And so I would wet myself. I would rather wet myself than use the restroom.
And so my father, I remember one time he put a diaper on me thinking if he embarrassed me enough and put a diaper on me and let my cousins come and see me in this diaper, it would break me of that habit. I was just going through a lot of emotions and I didn't understand why. And I didn't know if I'd ever see my mom again at that point.
Warwick Fairfax:
I'm assuming, was this a religious school that you were going to, I mean, like a Muslim school?
Lauren Burns:
I found that out after I started researching my own story. I didn't know this until I listened... I have cassette tape recordings of my mom calling my dad, which are very hard to listen to. My 14-year-old one day heard me listening to all these cassette tapes and he said, "Mom, that's too hard for me to listen to. I can't hear Mimi," Mimi's my mom, "I can't hear Mimi cry like that," because she was calling every day begging to talk to me, begging to talk to my dad.
And all they would say in Arabic is, "Ali's not here. Lauren's not here." It was very broken English, mainly Arabic. But because of those cassette tapes, I found out, yes, I was going to a private school. I would wear uniforms. I would ride the bus. And yes, everything was in Arabic. I was going to the mosque. We would be called to prayer. You know that sound of being called to prayer, that triggers memories for me.
There's different smells. The food was amazing, by the way. Everything's very fresh, the hummus, the pita bread. All of the family always cooking in the kitchen. Those are good memories. But that sense of smell, it sparks those feelings and it sparks those memories whenever I am in that kind of a situation.
Warwick Fairfax:
So you were called to prayer several times a day at school.
Lauren Burns:
Yes.
Warwick Fairfax:
So what was happening back in the US with your mom? She's obviously frantic, beside herself, probably not knowing what to do, but talk about what she was feeling and what she did.
Lauren Burns:
That's another thing I will share as I go back and I am revisiting my story, you never know who's fighting for you. You never know who's fighting for you. You might feel like you are in the deepest, darkest hole. And maybe it's God that's fighting for you. In the midst of that darkness, there is a war going on. There are people fighting for you. There's a war in the heavenlies.
And that's what was going on for me when I was in Jordan and I had no clue. My mom every single day was fighting for me. She called Rick and Beverly Lambert standing at that payphone before she even left. Rick was a police officer in Dallas. But at this point, him and his wife Beverly had a private investigation company called Lambert and Lambert. They are like my second parents.
They're still in my life. And my mom called Rick 911. And Rick and Bev, I interviewed them on my podcast and they share the story that they were working together at the Dallas County Courthouse this day that the page came through. And Rick looked at Beverly and said, "It's Cathy. Something's wrong. She's paging me 911." So Rick borrowed the phone and called my mom, and my mom told him, "Ali has taken Lauren. I don't know what to do."
So they jumped in their car and they drove to my mom's townhouse in Richardson. And that's where everything began to unravel. My mom wasn't eating. She wasn't sleeping. It was day after day. Every phone call they made, Rick said, "Get a recording device from Radio Shack and put it on the phone. So every phone call you make, you can go back and listen to try to get a clue of where Lauren might be as you're talking to Ali's family.
And also, when you call the police or the State Department, we can listen to those tapes because your mind is going to be all over the place and you're not going to be able to remember everything they're telling you." Thank God for Rick. I have those tapes. 37 years later, I've been listening to all of those tapes, which is so hard, but it's given me my book. It's given me the story.
It's given me the insight of what God did in my life and in my mom's life. But that's where things began to unravel. Like I said earlier, my mom was calling Jordan every day begging for help, begging to find out where I was. The police told my mom, "We can't help you. It's outside of our jurisdiction. Even though you have full custody of Lauren, her father is a Jordanian citizen and he has taken her to Jordan. There's nothing we can do."
And I have this cassette tape. This could have easily happened in person. Bev and Rick and Miranda was about four years old at the time, they actually moved in with my mom. They were living with her to help her through this process. But on this particular day, Beverly was out visiting her brother, and I think it's because God wanted me to hear this cassette tape.
And Beverly calls my mom, and my mom just breaks down crying. And she's like, "Beverly, please pray for Lauren. Whether she's in the mosque, if she's in the streets of Jordan, if she's in school, pray for her protection no matter where she is." And Beverly starts praying this powerful prayer over me. And then she stopped and said, "Cathy, you have got to get away from all of the noise and the chaos, and you have got to be alone with God and pray."
And my mom just starts crying and said, "You're right. I've got to pray. I've got to get away from all the craziness, and I have to stop smoking these cigarettes." My mom had smoked cigarettes since she was little, but at this point she was smoking like two cigarettes at a time is what she told me because she was so stressed out. And then Beverly said, "You know, Cathy, I read a book about fasting and how fasting brings you the closest to God." And my mom said, "You're right. I need to get away and fast and pray."
But before she could do that, Rick had set up an appointment, a meeting at the Dallas County Courthouse with the grand jury. He pulled some strings and was able to get her an appointment with them. And Rick told her, "I don't think they're going to be able to really help you, but it's just another step in the right direction. I think they can get a warrant out for Ali's arrests. So if he tries to come back to the United States to see my stepmom, because my stepmom had not gone to Jordan, then maybe they can capture him, put him in jail, and figure out where Lauren is."
So my mom went to the grand jury that day. She stood before the men and the women and began to tell them my story, that my dad had taken me. And she had full custody, but my father was a Jordanian citizen. And they told her, "I'm so sorry, there's nothing we can do for you. We hear these stories, but the United States does not have a treaty with Jordan, so therefore we can't get involved."
My mom broke down and she said, "Can I be real with you right now? It's not fair that we spend billions of dollars in foreign aid and you're telling me you can do nothing to help me get my daughter back." And they all nodded and shook their head in agreement with her. And one man stood up and opened his wallet and said, "My name is Al Zapanta. I work for the State Department. If you're not happy, here's my card. Give me a call and I'll see what I can do for you."
Warwick Fairfax:
What was the next step in the journey for your mom?
Lauren Burns:
So the next step, my mom went back to her townhouse and Beverly opened the door and she could see the desperation and the fear all over my mom's face. And she said, "Well, Cathy, how did it go?" And my mom was just like, "They can't do anything to help us." So she grabbed her Bible, she grabbed her bag, and she said, "I don't know where I'm going, but I've got to get away."
And so Bev and Rick said, "Don't worry, Cathy, we've got everything here. If Ali calls or if someone calls from Jordan, we will answer the phone. You go be alone." So she started driving towards Fort Worth and had no clue where she was going and found a motel room. And she was there for three days, three nights, fasting and praying, just drinking water. She had her Bible with her.
On that third day of prayer, she opened her Bible and God led her to Daniel 10. And in this verse, Daniel is praying over the Israelites. He had been fasting and praying for 21 days over the Israelites. And the angel Gabriel came to Daniel and said in 10:12, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before God, your words were heard."
It's like God was saying, "Cathy, I see you. Because you have stopped and you've come to this motel room and you have taken your eyes off your situation and you're putting your eyes on me and you're being humble and you're praying, I heard your prayer from day one." But if you continue to read in Daniel the angel Gabriel told Daniel, "I heard your prayer on day one, but there is a war in the heavenlies over the Israelites."
And I believe God was telling my mom, "There's a war in the heavenlies over your daughter, but don't be afraid because I will go before you." And then God wrestled, I say it's wrestling with God. God began to wrestle with my mom and said, "You've got to lay some things down. You've got to lay down those cigarettes." And my mom was like, "If you bring my daughter back, I won't ever smoke again."
And then God started to show my mom, "You've got to lay down areas of bitterness and anger and resentment. There's some things in your life you've got to lay down." Because the Bible talks about the prayers of the righteous are answered and heard. And when we've got those bitterness and unforgiveness, God wants us to deal with that first. And sometimes when we pray, we got to go a little bit deeper.
And that's what fasting is about. There's a scripture, I think it's in Matthew, where the disciples are saying, "God, why can't we cast out demons?" And the response is because some demons need to be fought through not just prayer, but fasting. And that's what my mom was doing. She walked out of that motel room. Everything changed. She went back to the head townhouse.
Beverly answered the door. And this time she looked at my mom and she's like, "You look different." And my mom smiled and said, "I am different. God told me I'm going to get my daughter back." She got that number, that card out of her wallet and she called Al Zapanta. Al Zapanta is a big deal. He has a lot of military awards. He's still working to this day.
Warwick Fairfax:
This is this guy in the State Department?
Lauren Burns:
Yeah, the State Department guy. That's Al Zapanta. He is still in the political world, still working. She calls Al. Al told my mom one week before Al was in that jury room that day that he was in Washington, DC having lunch with a man by the name of Everett Alvarez. Everett Alvarez is the second longest held POW. He is a very well-known military man, and they were good friends.
At this lunch, Everett was telling Al about a group of men that live in North Carolina, they were ex-military, Delta Force, Army Rangers, Green Beret, that had come up with their own company called CTU, and their mission was to go to the Middle East and to rescue hostages, to rescue people that had been taken. They've never rescued a child. But my mom was like, "What?"
And so I want to back up and repeat this. One week before Al was in that courtroom, he was having lunch with Everett. God was ordaining every step before my mom ever walked in that room. But how would she have ever known that?
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, that is just stunning because it's not like you say, "Oh, let me look up the yellow pages for ex-Delta Force people that can go to Jordan and rescue my daughter." I mean, obviously no internet back then. It's just you wouldn't know where to begin. Who would tell you? Other than a miracle, there's no way that she would know. I mean, so why file that grand jury filing when it was hopeless?
There was a purpose. There's no way your mom could possibly know. If she hadn't filed that grand jury, she would never have met this guy in the State Department. It never would have happened. I mean, that is just stunning. So now she gets connected with the State Department guy with this group in North Carolina of ex-military people who were formed precisely to do what your mom so desperately needs.
I mean, what was her reaction when she heard Al say, "I've got this group of ex-Delta Force and Army Rangers and they do what we need done here." I mean, what was her reaction when she heard that?
Lauren Burns:
She had already gone to Soldier of Fortune Magazine and she was looking at the very back pages looking for mercenaries. That's where she was. Rick Lambert was already trying to figure out how to put together a mission on his own to go over there. I mean, that's how desperate they were. My mom said, "I don't care who I need to hire." That was their mindset. And so my mom said, "I've got to meet these men." She had already made folders of...
My father had I think 12 siblings. She had typed up all of their names, what they looked like, what they did for work, all of their children. She had maps of Jordan. She had drawn by memory what his house looked like. She had every single detail. And so Al was like, "Hold on, Cathy. They've never rescued a child. They do not work for the United States anymore. It's going to cost a lot of money. And if they get captured, they're risking their life."
And my mom said, "I want to meet these men. I have to meet these men." And so she flew Don and Dave into Dallas and they met. My mom showed up with all those folders, everything she had prepared, and they were blown away with her. They were blown away with how committed she was, how prepared she was. And they looked at her and they said the same thing. They said, "We've never tried to rescue a child. We cannot guarantee her safety or your safety, and it's going to cost a lot of money." And my mom said, "I will figure all of that out if you're willing to do this."
Warwick Fairfax:
So kind of what happened next? I'm just amazed that they even came and listened. They could have been very practical saying, "Yeah, it's risky for us. We may not get paid. We feel very sorry for Cathy, but gee, we can't help." But yet they didn't say that. I mean, what happened and why, because it's a stunning aspect of the story?
Lauren Burns:
When I talked to Dave, Dave is 80, 85, somewhere in there, and he said, "Lauren, I've never met a woman like your mom before. You can't say no to your mom. And she just had something about her and we had to say yes." He said, "Don and I talked it over for maybe an hour, maybe two hours, and both of us were like, we're in. We have to do this. We have to save this little girl." And they're fathers, they have their own families, and that's all they could think of.
If this was my kid, I would do anything. And that's where my mom was. And they knew that my mom was going to try to do whatever she could on her own anyways. Actually, it cost my mom $80,000, but it should have cost more. They didn't make any money really off of that rescue mission. It cost them every dime to try to get me back. And so that's where everything began in that hotel meeting room.
They said yes. My mom's job was to go to Washington, DC and try to get passports for me. Because the problem was back then, my father had an active passport for me already used, and my mom had to get another passport, which was difficult to do, and visas and entry stamps, border passes, all of that. So she went to Washington to get the paperwork that the men would need.
And she was trying to call Jordan every day trying to act like everything was normal. Keep a normal profile. And the men were teaching my mom what to say on the phone to try to figure out and get hints of, was I in school? You asked me about private school. So Dave was like, "Start asking questions. Is Lauren in school? What kind of school?" That way they could try to narrow down where to try to find me.
And Dave was the first one into Jordan. His job was the intel was to try to figure out an escape route, to try to lay eyes on me to make sure I was actually in Jordan, because they thought I could have been in Lebanon, and to try to find my father's home.
Warwick Fairfax:
So how did they find you and rescue you?
Lauren Burns:
So that, I really think going back and looking at my story, I think God, honestly, we know that we serve a jealous God, and I think he's like, "I want everybody to know that nothing happened until I showed up," until God showed up. And so JD was explaining to me, he's like, "Lauren, we were everywhere. I was in the ruins." My mom had given them photos of when she was there.
So they went back to all those areas where the photos were taken, trying to search for my father's home. And they were all in disguise. They were changing out the rental cars every day. Jerash is a small town. My dad had a big family. And so they were very cautious. They did not want to be recognized. And the longer they were in country, the more risk of being recognized.
And so days of doing this, Don and JD were on the streets, and JD just starts praying. He's like, "Okay, God, I've done everything I know how to do in my expertise and my experience. You're going to have to help us find this kid." They had pictures of me. I have all of complexion skin and dark hair, but I have bright bluish green eyes. I have my mom's eyes. And so that was that distinguishing feature.
And a few moments after JD is praying, he's on the street and Don's a couple feet away from him, and a school bus pulled up right where JD was standing. And he turned and looked through that window, and there I sat. I turned my head and I was staring right at him. Now, I don't remember this because I didn't know what was going on, but JD did. He was staring right at me.
And he ran over to Don and shook him by the shoulders and said, "I saw Lauren. She's on the bus." And Don was like, "How do you know? What do you mean? Why are you so excited?" And JD was like, "I saw her eyes. I know it's her." And the bus had already driven off. And so they tried to follow it, but the streets were really windy and tight and narrow and crowded.
But that was the first moment that they actually knew I was in Jordan. I was in Jerash. So they phoned Dave, and then Dave called my mom, who was in Cyprus waiting for the call, that yes, they had spotted me and I was there. But they needed my mom's help to find my father's home because they could not find it. The city had grown so much compared to her photos that nothing looked the same.
Warwick Fairfax:
Wow! So how did they find the house?
Lauren Burns:
They picked her up from the airport in Amman. And as they're driving her, she's in the front seat. Don's driving. JD's in the back. And my mom is in disguise with her hair covered. And this fear just overcomes her. And she was like, "Nothing looked the same." The dirt roads were paved. The little buildings were now big. I guess they build on top of the other. Bigger and bigger buildings.
So nothing looked familiar. So she got down in the floorboard of that front seat and she buried her head down. And she started crying and praying out loud. She's like, "I didn't care if these guys thought I was crazy." And she just started praying and said, "God, you've got to show me where Lauren is. You haven't brought us this far to not find her." And it's like the Holy Spirit with her never opening her eyes began to remind her of the different turns in the road.
And as the engine of the car started to strain going up and down the hills, she began to tell Don, "Go straight. Turn left. Go right." And then all of a sudden, she looked out her window and she saw my dad's white Mazda with Texas license plates sitting on the street. And she froze. And finally she said, "Don, I saw Ali's car." And so Don said, "Okay, Cathy, hide your face. I'm going to turn back around."
So he turned the car back around. And as he turned the car back to go past that building, my dad has stepped out from the building. And Don spotted him. And so that's how they found the home. Again, it wasn't until my mom started praying in that car.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay, so they found the house. Then what happened?
Lauren Burns:
So they found the house. So then the next thing was to put together the mission of what to do. So they realized the house was in a crowded area. There was a police station not far from the house. And so they decided it would not be safe to try to get me out of the house. And they started to watch the school bus. And as they started watching the school bus and the route, there was one little farmhouse on the outskirts of town, and they figured that would be the safest place to get me because it was away from the crowds.
It was away from the police. So that was the plan. So the day of the mission, Dave was in one car. He was in a white car, and then the other car was with Don and JD and my mom. They needed my mom with them, so that way I wouldn't be as scared to go with them. So my mom did this rescue mission with the men. They were all dressed in disguise. Dave's job was to make sure I actually got on the school bus that day.
They don't want to hijack the bus. And for some reason, I didn't even go to school. So Dave's watching the bus. He sees me get on. He drives over to where Don is waiting, and he says, "The mission is a go. The sun is shining." And as soon as the school bus passed Don, Don went behind the bus and blocked it so that way the bus could not get out as the kids are getting on the bus from the farmhouse.
Don gets out and he goes to the driver's side and he's making a big commotion, speaking in English, hoping to distract the bus driver. And JD goes around to the passenger side. It's like those accordion style bus doors, and he's breaking through those doors. He gets the keys out of the ignition and he throws the keys into some bushes hoping that they will go looking in the bushes for the keys instead of going straight to the police.
While this is going on, my mom goes and she's in disguise, and she walks over to my window. She spotted me. And she taps on the window to get my attention. And I turn. And there's a lot that I don't remember from this rescue because again, I went in shock. But I'll never forget the day I saw my mom for the first time. It had been three months since I'd seen my mom.
And I looked at her and she's in disguise, but I see her bright blue eyes looking at me. And all I could think was, "It looks just like my mom, but how can it be? She's in Texas." All I could think of is, "I'm dreaming. This isn't happening." And so I froze. My mom's motioning to me, but I froze. So my mom had to get on the bus and she pushes past Don and JD and gets me and gets my backpack, because that's the instinct of a mom to get your backpack.
And she's getting me off that bus. And as we step down onto the ground, there's a lady chaperone and the lady chaperone, they don't know what's going on. So she jumps on my mom's back. My mom has to let go of me. She turns around and she punches the woman in the nose. So now the woman, there's blood coming down her face. So now I'm really shocked like, "Is this my mom? Who is this person?"
And so Don sees what's happening. He comes around and he helps get me in the car. And Don and JD and my mom, we all get in the car and they hide me under some blankets and we drive off. And a couple blocks down the road, Dave meets us and we switch cars. Dave took the car that we used to hijack the bus, and he drove back towards the city to be a decoy.
And it worked because he got pulled over. He was surrounded by Jordanian police. They pull him out of that car. They're blocking traffic. They bring the bus driver over to Dave, and the bus driver is saying in Arabic, "That's the car, but I don't know who the guy is." Because remember Dave wasn't at the hijacking. And Dave is just speaking English. He's acting like a tourist.
They're tearing apart his car. And the only thing he had in his car was a Snickers, a Pepsi can, and a little jar of sand. And he was being interrogated for like 30 minutes on the side of the road. And all of a sudden, he hears on the radio, "Alia Airport. Alia Airport." Well, my mom had made reservations for us to fly out of Amman back to the United States hoping that they would look for us at the airport.
Well, because of that, the Jordanian police, they all leave Dave on the side of the road. They all jump in their police cars and they all drive to the airport. They were shutting down the entire airport looking for me. And Dave was able to escape. But while all of that was going on, we were headed to Israel. Our escape route was over the Jordan River, over the King Hussein Allenby Bridge.
My mom was able to secure a border pass and the passports and all the paperwork we needed, and that's a whole nother story, to get me over that border. While we were driving, the fog was so thick. It was about a 45-minute drive from where we were to the border. And the fog was so thick, it slowed us down. And my mom's holding me in the backseat.
I'm burning up with fever. They said all I would do is speak Arabic at that point, because I was in shock. And my mom was just praying over me. And she looked out the window and she said, "What is that bright light in the distance?" And Don said, "Well, Cathy, that's Israel. The sun is shining over Israel." It was just like, again, God's like, "Cathy, I'm with you. I am not going to leave you. You are going to be okay."
So we get to the border. And back then you couldn't drive over the border. You had to leave your car. You give all your paperwork to the military. And when you get there, there are big barbed wire fences, tall shacks with military, with machine guns. It is very secured. Don and JD and Dave had walked that border many times. They knew where all the traps were, but it didn't matter.
What are you going to do if they figure out who we are? So we get on that bus and we wait for about 30 minutes. It took forever. And as we're waiting on that bus, they're shutting down the airport looking for us. We start to drive over the bridge. And in the middle of the bridge back then there was a shack where an Israeli bus driver and an Israeli soldier would get on and switch out with a Jordanian bus driver and soldier, and they would take you on over into Israel.
Well, our bus stops, they switched the guards around, and we start driving over that border into Israel. And then there's a huge commotion where we had just left. They just realized we weren't at the airport, but that we were on that bus going over the border. But by that time, it was too late. There's nothing they could do because we had already gone over into Israel.
So we get off that bus. My mom starts crying. She's hugging me, I'm crying. And there was a huge commotion. And there was a group of women that were there, and they went over to JD. And JD is this big handsome military guy. And they said, "Sir, what is going on? Is that little girl okay? Is that mother okay?"
And JD looked at him with tears going down his face and said, "You see that little girl? She's been gone for three months and we just brought her home. That's her mom. And they just reunited for the first time. And we just brought her home to safety." And those women are jumping up and down saying, "Praise you, Jesus. Hallelujah. You've brought us to the Holy Land and we've seen a miracle."
Warwick Fairfax:
At that point, you're in Israel. And then I'm assuming soon after you got on a plane to go back to the US?
Lauren Burns:
So that night, there's some parts of the story that I didn't share. I'm sorry, Don and Dave had connections with Marco Productions. They produced the Rambo and Iron Eagle III movies. This is another God thing. Iron Eagle III was being produced at the same time, and this was happening in Israel, at the same time that I was kidnapped and my rescue is going on.
Don and Dave had connections with that production company. Louis Gossett Jr., who's in Iron Eagle III, was there producing this movie. And Don had talked with the producers and told them... He didn't tell them everything because he didn't want them to get in trouble if they got caught. But he said, "Can I use your movie production as a backdrop of why we're crossing?"
Because they were crossing the border every day and they were checking everything. And some of the Israeli soldiers knew what was going on. So when we got there, they knew what had just happened. So they were there to help us. The day I come home, there was a huge party. Louis Gossett Jr. threw a big party for us for the rescue team. And he came over to Don.
He's a big guy and he put his hand on Don's shoulder and said, "Are you going to introduce me to this little girl and to this mother that you just brought over?" I mean, so that night we had a big party in Israel, and then we flew home.
Warwick Fairfax:
So you got back to the US. You still probably had a lot of trauma to deal with. Your mom had trauma about almost losing a child. I mean, how did you get through those next few weeks, few months, few years? It can't have just been, "Oh good, we're all safe. Back to normal. Let's go to school. Let's go back to sports activities and dance." I'm sure it wasn't that easy. So what was that reentry like in those days, months, and years for you and your mom?
Lauren Burns:
And you're correct. And that's another reason I'm writing a book, because the movie does not share or show the after part. And it's a real story with real trauma, and not everything's going to end with a little red bow wrapped around it. I had to deal with a lot of wounds, father wounds, of anger and hurt and unforgiveness, and growing up without a dad. We had to change our last name.
We lived in hiding. By the time I was in high school, I think we moved like 14 times. My mom spent $80,000 to get me back. And so she started over from scratch. We moved in with my grandmother in Florida so that my mom could get back on her feet. We had nothing. She sold her last piece of jewelry to pay for rent. And that's the truth. We had media. I don't know how this happens. I don't know how media finds out about things, but we had media at all of our doorsteps.
My family's trying to find pictures and photos of me. And here we are trying to hide. I had to grow up. I lost my dad. I lost my dad when he took me. Because of the decisions he made, he broke that trust. He hurt me in a way that I never thought a father could hurt a daughter. That was a lot of father wounds. I had to learn how to forgive him. My years of healing was I lived with the Lamberts again.
God puts people in your life when he knows what you need. In my middle school years, I started going down a dark path. My mom remarried to an amazing man. I mean, I couldn't ask for a better stepfather. He loved me. He didn't care about disciplining me. He just loved me, and that's what I needed. That's what I needed, right? I just needed to be loved. But he took my mom from me.
That's how I felt, because it was just my mom and I for so many years of living through what we went through. And so my middle school years, I started to rebel and I got into some trouble. And Beverly saw that and said, "Lauren is going down the wrong path. And if you don't do something, Cathy, you're not going to get her back." And so I moved. My parents actually bought land in Lindale where Miranda's from out in the country. They didn't have to do that, but they did. They bought land and built a house.
Warwick Fairfax:
Where is this? What state are we in?
Lauren Burns:
In Texas. We're still in Texas. It's in the country.
Warwick Fairfax:
Okay. Got it.
Lauren Burns:
Home of Miranda Lambert. But we built a house. And during that time of building a house, I actually lived with the Lamberts. And if you listen to Miranda Lambert, if you know country music, she has a song, it's a very well-known song, called The House That Built Me. I lived in that house. That is where my healing began. Beverly was our life group leader in church. Miranda sang in the church. And Rick, her dad, played guitar. My mom sang. They all sang in the praise team.
In life group, it's small groups that you meet in people's homes. I was 15 years old, 15, 16 in a group with my own peers. And I began to share all those father wounds, all that hurt. I began to share with my best friend, my beautiful blonde-haired cheerleader friend that had the perfect family. I was like, "I love you, but I'm so jealous of you. You have both your parents. You live in the picture-perfect family. I want what you have. And I'm jealous, deeply jealous of you. Envious of you."
And I began to peeling those layers like an onion, and God began to heal me. And as I began to share my wounds, all my peers sat and cried with me and prayed with me. And then they began sharing all of their own personal wounds. And so that's where my healing began.
Gary Schneeberger:
You mentioned earlier the importance of your mom having to lay some things down. Earlier in the story, she had to lay down cigarettes. She had to lay down some of her resentments. You just indicated you had to lay down, you had had to lean into forgiveness for your father. Were there other things over the course of time to help you heal that you had to lay down? I mean, you had to believe some things for sure, but were there other things that you had to lay down?
Because that's a traumatic... I mean, I want to make sure people caught the entire time that you were in Jordan was three months. This was not something... I mean, this was intense. This was quick. It was intense and it probably felt like a lot longer than that. But did you have to lay things down? Are you still finding yourself in a position where you have to do that? I mean, how has that stuck with you those three months?
Lauren Burns:
I kept thinking my dad was going to have the magic answer, because I did talk to him over the years. I wrote letters. We had phone calls. I actually saw him in person. I kept thinking he was going to have this magic answer of why he took me and it would make me feel better. Guess what? That didn't happen. Only God could heal that broken area. Only God could give me those answers. And so I had to know how to forgive him.
Warwick Fairfax:
So talk about your life now just as we round our time here. From what understand, you have a wonderful husband and two incredible boys. Obviously, a physical therapist and you're writing this book and have a podcast. It would seem like life can always be better, but it doesn't seem like it's that bad. It seems like it's pretty good right now.
I mean, does it feel like, at least compared to before, this probably does feel like Disney World. I'm sure there are days in which you pull your hair out with your boys and taking them here and there and it's a life of frenzy. But talk about your life now and how you look at life and your faith, husband and kids. What's life like for Lauren today?
Lauren Burns:
Life is good. I've gone through a lot of other hard things. I think when you live life long enough, you're going to go through hard things. And that happened at such a young age that, hey, I've got time for more hard stuff. So yes, I mean, I went through a hard time when I lost my stepfather, and we went through another traumatic event a couple of years back in my family.
I always want to be very authentic, but it is good. And God has brought me to a place. People will say, "Lauren, why are you sharing your story now?" Because I wasn't ready to share, I wasn't in a place where I can share the way God wants me to share three years ago, four years ago. God has brought me to a place of healing. I've been plugged into a Bible study for 14 years.
People have been pouring into me. I have people that are praying over me. Because when you're going to go out and share your testimony, the devil doesn't like it. And so we need people praying to protect us. And I've learned a lot and I'm still learning a lot. And I want to stay humble, and I want when people hear my story to hear God and not me. And so that's where my life is now.
My journey is to finish this book and to ask God, "Okay, what's the next steps? How do I get the book in the right person's hand to help share it?" I don't know what that looks like, but he does. And so that's where I'm at at this point of trying to be obedient and sharing my story and however God wants it to be shared.
Gary Schneeberger:
The sound you just heard, folks, is the sound of our captain having turned on the fasten seatbelt sign and indicate we're beginning our descent to land the plane on this conversation. But before we do that, I would be remiss if I didn't do a couple things. First thing, Lauren, is to tell you, because you probably already figured this out before I did, I grabbed my phone in the midst of the conversation and looked this up.
You mentioned that your mom paid $80,000 for those gentlemen to take you out of Jordan. That is about a quarter million dollars in today's money, just so you know. Because it's easy to look back on that for me and go, "80,000. Okay." That's a quarter million dollars in today's money. That's a big commitment that your mother made, and that's just one of the commitments that she made.
So that is just part of the beauty of your story. And the second thing that I want to make sure that I do is give you the chance where people can find your podcast and find out more about you online. Where can they go to do that?
Lauren Burns:
Thank you. The name is Redeemed Podcast. It's on Apple, Spotify, YouTube. You can find me on Facebook and Instagram, Lauren Burns or Lauren Burns Redeemed. And then my website is LaurenBurns.net. I would love for you to reach out, any questions, and follow me. I post scripture verses, and I try to do inspiring clips and interview people with amazing testimonies.
Gary Schneeberger:
Speaking of people with amazing testimonies, Warwick, you have one and I'll let you ask the last question or two.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, a couple of questions. I guess the first would be, as you're thinking and praying about your podcast Redeemed, which again, I love the title, and your book, what is your prayer? What is your desire for how God would use your book and your podcast and what you're doing?
Lauren Burns:
Number one, to help heal those wounds of anger and unforgiveness and bitterness, especially to people that have those father wounds or wounds of a parent and of a childhood to restore those broken areas. It doesn't necessarily mean to restore the relationship, but to restore those broken areas. Because forgiveness doesn't mean that you have to have a relationship with the person that hurt you.
Forgiveness means God, he's yours, and I'm laying him at your feet. And I'm letting go of that anger and that bitterness. So that's really my desire. And that I would really be intentional to hear God and what I do in the next steps. Which direction do I go? I really want him to lead me in every step of the way.
Warwick Fairfax:
And one final question that may be somebody listening to this and maybe they feel like today is their worst day, they're at the bottom of the pit as we sometimes say, what would a word of hope be to that person that feels like there is no hope? Maybe they feel like there is no God. How could there be? How could a good God let me be in this terrible situation I'm in? What would a word of hope be to that person?
Lauren Burns:
I am going to read a scripture verse in Isaiah because there is nothing better than scripture when we don't know what to do and which way to turn. Isaiah 43. But now, this is what the Lord, your Creator says, O Jacob, and He who formed you, O Israel, "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by name. You are mine! When you pass through the waters, I will be with you. And through the rivers, they will not overwhelm you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, nor will the flame burn you."
God sees you in your darkest time. God sees you in that miry pit. God sees you even when you don't believe him and when you don't trust him, when you don't want to pray. And all you have to do is just say his name, or ask someone else, "Hey, I don't even know if I believe in this God, but will you pray for me?" What's it going to hurt to take a chance and just say, "God, I don't know if you're real, but I need you because I'm desperate."
Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the last words have been spoken on a subject. And our guest, Lauren Burns, just spoke it. Warwick, we just had a very powerful conversation with Lauren Burns. Lots of things to unpack to really think about, but just to help people know what it is they can drill down on and find, what's your big takeaway from a lot of takeaways in our conversation with Lauren?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Gary, I feel like we had a conversation about redemption. Lauren Burns' story is a story about redemption and forgiveness. It was so hard to hear the details of her story. It wasn't like life was so terrible growing up. She had her mom and her dad, and she'd go to her dad's. And sometimes they go to a mosque and she wouldn't quite realize that this is not quite the same God, or at least from her mother's perspective.
And maybe it's Jesus of a different kind. She's a seven-year-old kid. She doesn't quite know what's going on. And her dad seemed to be a great dad, loving dad. But then she gets kidnapped by her dad, and her dad lies to her. He says, "Oh, your mom knows what's happening. We're just going on an adventure." And she's thinking, "Well, but this is Halloween. I've got my cheerleader outfit. We're going to trick or treating." He basically lies to her and takes her to Jordan.
And she's there for three months, and her dad is different. Culturally, for her dad's family, it's the women, the mothers, aunts are the ones that raise the kids and the dad goes to work. So dad is different around her. She has to wear a head covering and go to a religious Islamic school. She's in trauma. But she goes through all of this and you hear this miraculous story, miracle after miracle of how somehow her mother's able to get the money, $80,000 as you rightly pointed out. It's more like a quarter of a million in today's money.
Somehow her mother's able to connect with these ex-Rangers and Special Forces types in North Carolina who find a way to rescue her. I mean, it's just miraculous. So the whole story of how she's rescued is incredible. But I think to me, the biggest story, as incredible as that is, and she talks about this in the podcast of how she was able to forgive her father, as she mentioned.
Her father never said, "I'm sorry for what I did," Never acknowledged that what he did was kidnapping his daughter, was wrong, without her mother's permission at all. We all want when we've been wrong somebody to say, "I'm so sorry. What I did was wrong." But sadly, in the real world, in most cases, we never get that apology. We're never able to forgive a person who's confessed what they did was wrong.
I feel like nine times out of 10 people don't do that. It's just not the world we live in. So she's had to live in a world where she's had to forgive her father and get over the trauma that she's been through. She now has a wonderful husband, two wonderful boys. She's now embarking on this podcast Redeemed and with this book that she's writing. But forgiveness is not easy.
And I think as we listen and hear this podcast, a key point was when she was around other girls her age in high school, in this life group Bible study, and she started, I'm sure, weeping, talking about the trauma that she's been through. And the other girls talked about some of their experiences. And as we say, it's not a competition to see who's had the worst day, the worst experience.
But she felt like even the girls, she felt like they were pretty and fun with a perfect family. And she's like, "Well, they have challenges also." It's like she felt seen and heard, and that was pivotal in her beginning the steps to overcome what she's gone through. I think over time, she's learned how to forgive. Her story is a life of redemption, about how you get over that kind of pain and that kind of anger and bitterness or when something horrific like that has been done to you.
It's hard to imagine. But she has found a way. And if you don't get over that kind of trauma, or at least if you don't find a way to forgive, as we often say, it's like drinking poison. It destroys your life. If you don't forgive, that will almost guarantee your life will be destroyed. So you really have no choice if you try to think logically. But it's not easy. And she's found a way to forgive and redeem what she's been through. It's really a remarkable story.
Gary Schneeberger:
This doesn't happen often. In fact, I don't know that it's happened ever, but I don't have anything to add to that. You've summed it up perfectly. You've landed the plane, tied a bow, wrapped the package. Seriously, in all seriousness, there's really nothing I can add to that. So folks, if you haven't heard it yet, go listen to it. If you've listened to it and you're hearing this at the end of the show, share it with folks because there's some really intense, very, very meaningful learnings here.
Please know until the next time we're together that we understand that your crucible experiences are difficult. They're tough. Everybody here has had them. You've heard Lauren talk in detail about her crucibles, but you've also heard her make clear it wasn't the end of her story. In fact, for all of us, if we learn the lessons of our crucibles and we take those lessons forward, where we end up getting is to the best destination we can possibly get to, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience.
This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
</div
Building a Life You Don’t Want to Escape From
We discuss Warwick’s latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com, with thoughts on how we can shift from a life of quiet desperation to a life of joy, fulfillment and purpose.
We’ve got all the questions you need to ask yourself here:
What is your true calling?
What are your beliefs and values?
How do you want the rhythms of your life to look?
How do you see this adding up to a life of significance?
“It is our life, and we get to choose our own adventure,” Warwick says. “We can design a life we want to live.”
To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.
Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment on our YouTube channel. Be sure to subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.
Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com
—
👉 Don’t forget to subscribe for more leadership and personal growth insights: https://www.youtube.com/@beyondthecrucible
👉 Follow Beyond the Crucible on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/beyondthecrucible
👉 Follow Warwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/warwickfairfax/
👉 Follow Beyond the Crucible on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beyondthecrucible
👉 Take the free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment to discover where you are on your journey of moving beyond your crucible and how to chart your personal course to a life of significance: https://beyondthecrucible.com/assessment/
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. So I outline the whole concept of wanting to design a life that you love and just some of the core concepts of it. And so, Margaret, as we were chatting, came up with this incredible phrase and she said, "Really, I guess what we're talking about is you want to have a life that you don't want to escape from."
We want to have a life that we don't want to escape from. And I thought to myself that is exactly right, because so often we lead lives of quiet desperation.
Gary:
So how do we swap that quiet desperation for a life lived joyfully and purposefully out loud? That's the focus of this week's episode in which we unpack Warwick's latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com. Want to build a life that you don't want escape from? If you do, we've got all the questions you should be asking yourself, from what is your true calling, to what are your beliefs and values? From how do you want the rhythms of your life to look, to how does this all add up to a life of significance?
Well, folks, this is one of those episodes that we do every month that is based on a blog that Warwick has written. Think of these, I just thought of it this way this morning. It's kind of like when a famous book gets made into a movie. That's what we're talking about here. Warwick has written a blog, and now we're going to put it on camera and on microphone for you. Or on speaker, I guess, on your end. And this blog is called Want to Build a Life You Don't Want To Escape From? It's kind of a catchy title. That's what we're going to talk about. Do you want to build a life you do not want to escape from? You'll find out where that phrase came from and where the idea for this blog came from right after I asked Warwick this question. What was, Warwick, the inspiration for you to write this blog that is now available at beyondthecrucible.com? Something clearly was moving in you to want to do this. What was that?
Warwick Fairfax:
So Gary, we had a meeting towards the beginning of the year, I guess it was a few weeks ago now with Beyond the Crucible team, and a lot of organizations, a lot of companies do this as the beginning of the year. What do we want our goals to be and what are the targets? What's the vision for this year? And that's a very normal thing that a lot of folks do.
Gary:
Annual plan, right? Annual planning. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
There you go. But we started with a question that is not normal, at least I don't think it is for most people. And the question was, what does Warwick want? Now, it wasn't like somebody else asked this question, it was me. And you might wonder, "Well, that's a bit strange, isn't it?"
And really for me, it was a very un-Warwick-like question, because I tend to be focused on what does our audience want? Being a person of faith, maybe what's some higher power, what does God want? I tend to be others focused and that's good. But really, the thought is here is that I want to make sure that what we do at Beyond the Crucible fits into what I want out of life, what I want to do, because this is something that I founded. I have a lot of help, but ultimately it's the organization, it's the concepts that I founded. And so, just like everybody else, I get to choose, well, I get input, but how much do I want to do this?
Do I want to do this 24/7? I mean, what does that look like? And so, it was a very difficult subject for me to talk about. And I didn't really start off with, well, it was sort of a rhetorical question, what does Warwick want? Because ahead of time, being a reflective person, if I asked myself that question that I wrote down some notes of what that was, and I wanted people to understand that I love what we do at Beyond the Crucible. We're about helping people not be defined by their worst day, helping people bounce back from the pit, if you will, to what we call a life of significance, life on purpose, dedicated to serving others. To use a phrase we often use here, I am off the charts passionate about that, but what's interesting is there's actually a number of activities beyond Beyond the Crucible, so to speak, that I'm very passionate about.
And so, I kind of outline with the team in more detail than I usually go into some of those things. So just to give listeners and viewers a bit of an idea of what that is, I'm an elder at an evangelical church, non-denominational church in Annapolis, Maryland. And I've been an elder there for many years, since, I don't know, 2007. It's a grace-based church, perfect balance in my view anyway, of love and truth. So I feel very blessed to go there and very involved. I'm on the campaign committee of Taylor University, that's a Christian university in Indiana where my kids went. It's thriving under a great president of the last several years, Michael Lindsay. It's always been a tremendous university. And Michael Lindsay is really helping to take Taylor to another level, so I feel blessed to be part of that. And then, there's a local Christian organization called Estuary, and I'm on the strategic advisory committee of that organization.
This is led by Joey Tomassoni, and that seeks to help people be disciples at home, in their workplace, just have an impact in their neighborhoods, which can mean very different things. And so, they partner with churches, just helping set up curriculum and groups to help facilitate that. So all of these three organizations outside of Beyond the Crucible, my church, Taylor University and Estuary, I feel like they're having a big impact and really helping people from my perspective, being a person of faith, they're all faith-based organizations. So I'm very passionate about that.
What that means is, when I'm thinking about what I do at Beyond the Crucible, I want to make sure that we're doing what we need to be doing. But if we start launching all sorts of initiatives, such that it eats into the time that I have for those three other organizations, maybe it'll do more than eat into that time. Maybe it will just consume it so much, I won't be able to be involved at all. Then I will feel bad about that, because I'll feel that part of my calling is using my gift and abilities to have an impact. I like to think I'm having an impact on all three organizations, because I'm using my skills and abilities for organizations I passionately care about, and I love the variety. It's like, nothing wrong with having one kind of vegetable or protein, but variety is okay. Variety makes life interesting. And so, one of the things I had to consider is life is about choices, and we get to choose our own adventure, and in this case, I get to choose my adventure.
And so, what does that mean practically? Well, I'm a certified executive coach. I've done some speaking, it's not a natural gifting of mine, but through some training and help, I think I've got to the level in speaking where I'm actually competent, if not reasonably good, which to me is quite remarkable, but it seems to be the case. That being said, I don't do as much speaking and executive coaching as I used to. Not because I don't find them fulfilling and enjoy them in a sense. What I love is doing what we're doing at Beyond the Crucible, having these conversations, learning from the guests we have, the blogs we write. I mean, that's at the top of the list of what I love doing, because I'm a reflective advisor. So I had to make a choice, which is basically, I don't want to be traveling 10 times a month speaking all over the place. Could I do that? Maybe. But that would mean it would be almost impossible to be involved in some of the other activities with these three other organizations.
Gary:
Good summary. And I think it would be, I'm going to try to get WDWW, What Does Warwick Want? I want that to become something that we say as a group. WDWW.
Warwick Fairfax:
It almost feels like heresy to me, which is, it's like, what does Jesus want? What does Warwick want? It's hardwired into me that that is such an irrelevant question, but it can be relevant in the right context.
Gary:
Absolutely. And in the context of the teamwork, I just thought about it as you were talking. What you did was set yourself in the same place as the team, because none of the team members are full-timers. The team members all have other clients that we work with, and we're living that out every day. You should have the same opportunity to live that out every day, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way, but yeah, it kind of makes sense, doesn't it?
Gary:
It does. And I hadn't thought about it until we started talking. That's why I love these episodes, because things come out that would not normally come out. So something else came out of this that was born from a discussion with a member of the team, and it was a member of our team who came up with the phrase that resonated so much with you that you named the blog that, it shaped the blog. Talk a little bit about that inspiration, and how and why that moved you so much.
Warwick Fairfax:
So one of the things that we do before we write a blog, at least before I write a blog, and then the podcast comes from the blog, is we have a team meeting. And in this case it was you, Gary, myself, and one of our team members, Margaret Herbert. And so, I outline the whole concept of wanting to design a life that you love and just some of the core concepts of it. And so, Margaret, as we were chatting, came up with this incredible phrase and she said, "Really, I guess what we're talking about is you want to have a life that you don't want to escape from."
We want to have a life that we don't want to escape from. And I thought to myself, that is exactly right, because so often we lead lives of quiet desperation. I think it might've been Thoreau that said that, that we just hate what we do. And so, it was really a brilliant phrase. So this concept of wanting a life that we don't want to escape from really sums it up. And for many of our listeners and viewers, today they're living that life of drudgery. Maybe it's more than drudgery. Sometimes it can be boredom, sometimes it can be active persecution. They might hate their boss, hate the products the company produces, but they might feel, "Well, it's a paycheck and maybe there aren't a whole lot of options in my town." Or they might feel like it's some prison they can't escape from, but they hate what they do and they would just love to escape from that life. So yeah, it's a brilliant phrase and that's really the whole concept about what we're going to talk about is designing a life you love that you don't want to escape from.
Gary:
And before we move on to do that, I have to make a confession. It's a good confession. I have earned a living arranging words into sentences as a writer for more than 40 years. And I have a thing that I say to fellow writers, people who string words together, that when they do a particular stringing of words together that I find really, really good, my response to them is, "I don't like you very much."
And the reason behind that is... So I don't like you, Margaret, as you listen to this. I don't like you, because of that phrase. Here's why I say that. I know all the words that you used. I know that, I know we, I know don't, I know want, I know to, I know escape, and I know all the words you used in that phrase. It never occurred to me to string them together like that. So when I say that, it's the highest compliment, one writer can pay another. I was like, "Hmm, I didn't come up with that. You did." Bravo for you. So let's give you a clap.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's like listening to a wonderful symphony by Mozart or Beethoven. You might say, "I know that chord. I know the note, D, B, F-sharp, what have you, but I wouldn't have thought to put it together in quite that order, in that timing." So it's kind of like that. That's the genius of musical or written composition.
Gary:
Absolutely. Well said. All right, let's move on. As always folks, you'll probably be a little surprised, and by a little, I mean, this big, very little, that there's seven points in the blog, seven points of how you go about building a life you don't want to escape from. And let's run through those points, Warwick. The first one is that folks can ask themselves as they look to build a life they don't want to escape from. The first point is, and it's where it all starts. What is your true calling? Talk about that a little bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Gary. So I mean, this is a very big question and the answer may not come overnight. And one of the things I've found in my life and I have a feeling in your life too, Gary, is a calling can evolve. You may have always known you loved writing. I think you've mentioned you knew you loved writing at a young age, elementary school or before, but the particular nature of that writing evolved, the arenas. And so, for me, I also like writing and thought leadership, but of course I wasn't as clear as you were, frankly, on what my true calling was at a young age, because we'll get to that later.
Gary:
Yeah, you had good reason not to be, so don't beat yourself up about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
No, indeed. And so, we'll get to that later, but yeah. The question is huge, and you may not come up with the answer to that overnight, but wrestling with that question is a huge first step that will lead to greater fulfillment than living a life you don't want to live. So ask that question of yourself, "What is my true calling? What is my purpose in life? Why was I put on the earth?"
A lot of people don't ask that question. It's like, well, life's about just providing for my family getting a paycheck. And that's true, but it's my belief and it's our belief of Beyond the Crucible that yes, it's important as those things are, as providing for your family, getting a paycheck, that we all should be asking ourselves, what is our true calling? Because it changes the nature of how we think about who we are and what we do. There can be situations in which we don't necessarily change jobs, but by asking ourselves the nature of our true calling, how we think about our job can be radically different, and how people perceive us can be radically different. So it's a big question, and the answer typically doesn't come overnight, but just ask yourself, "What is my true calling? What does calling mean? What does purpose mean? What does that mean for me?" Just wrestle with that question. You won't get that answer overnight typically, but that is the first step. You've got to give yourself permission to ask yourself that challenging question, that big question.
Gary:
Yeah. And this is a great time to say it is a big question and it's a question, folks, that you've heard before at Beyond the Crucible. We've talked about it in the past. We've talked about it often in the past. In fact, a couple of podcast episodes, blog episodes ago in January, Warwick had another topic of a blog that he wrote about the power of saying no, and that was one of the first points in that blog as well. Here's the thing, we're not repeating ourselves just because we have no other ideas. These are fundamental concepts to the Beyond the Crucible architecture for what it takes to move from trial to triumph. So frankly, you'll hear a couple more phrases in the points that Warwick's laid out that you've heard before, and the reason why is because there are certain things that are indispensable to overcoming your crucible. Does that sum it up pretty well, Warwick?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it does. Really at Beyond the Crucible, we have core constructs, which is your life is not... Core constructs like your worst day doesn't define you. That life, if you want a life of joint fulfillment, it's about living a life, a significance of life on purpose dedicated to serving others. You talk about forgiveness, which doesn't necessarily mean condoning. Perseverance, and a lot of these are summarized in the actionable truths that we've been going through once a month.
So there are core constructs, but sometimes the arena is different. So with just say no, it's about a particular opportunity that comes up. If it doesn't fit into your calling, your vision, belief, and values, then start easy. It may be from friends and family, which is a very high bar for saying no, but you've got to say no. So this is really looking at some of these paradigms from the lens of, okay, so I've said no to a new opportunity, but what about my life as a whole? Maybe my life as a whole is not designed right. I'm not living a life I want to live. So great, I've said no to some bad things or things that don't really fit into what I want to do, but do I enjoy what I'm doing now?
Gary:
Yeah. So here folks is point two from the blog, Want to Build a Life You Don't Want to Escape From, copyright 2025, Margaret Hibbard. The second point from the blog, Warwick, is this, what are you truly passionate about? Again, we've talked about it before. Why is it so important specifically to this topic?
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, as you're thinking about what is your calling, one of the ways to maybe it's almost like finding buried treasure to figure that out is to ask yourself, what are the things that really motivate and move you? It could be something in the world that you think, "It's so messed up that this exists in the world." It could be challenges with environment, with people being abused, persecuted, lack of freedom in certain other countries. It could be all sorts of things that animate you and move you, that make you think, "This is not right. This shouldn't exist. People shouldn't have to suffer this way."
And so, it could be something negative, it could be a new invention or something in which you think, "Boy, life would be so much better for so many people if this invention existed." So one of the clues to what your true calling is, what are the things that keep you up at night when you're thinking, "Gosh, I wish this wasn't so, I wish this was different. I wish this particular technology existed." So it's really another stepping stone, if you will, to try to figure out your calling and try to figure out a life that you love, that you don't want to escape from, is what are you off the charts passionate about? And it's okay to be off the charts passionate. Sometimes we think, "Oh no, it's irrelevant. My passion's irrelevant." It's wholly relevant.
Gary:
Yeah, I mean, the phrase is not off the building passionate. You're not going to fall from a great height and hurt yourself. Falling off the charts, okay. If you're off the charts passionate about something, good thing. And I love, Warwick, that you mentioned that they're stepping stones, because really it is connected and sequential. So we've been through the first two, and the third one follows naturally from the second one, and that is this. What are your beliefs and values? Again, I'm going to say this a lot in this episode, but not an unusual topic for Beyond the Crucible. Fits great here. Why does it fit so well here in this discussion of creating a life that you don't want to escape from?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean, beliefs and values are the core of who we are. Now, we might believe in particular religion. It could be major religion, such as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism. There could be a philosophy, a way of thinking. A lot of people today are more spiritual than religious, but we all have beliefs and values. To be human is to have a soul, to have things that animate and govern how we live. And so, we have them, they exist. We need to make sure that we're fully in touch with what those beliefs and values are, that really resonate with us to the depths of our soul, and we're leading our lives in accordance with those beliefs and values.
I think it's really important to understand what are the most cherished belief and values? Write them down. I mean, there are exercises you can take to identify your values, and I think we've talked about that on Beyond the Crucible before. But don't be afraid of just journaling and writing down what are your most cherished beliefs and values. We all have them. It's not about what other people think that they should be for you, but what does it mean for you? It's fundamentally important. Again, back to your true calling. Your calling is going to be in line with what you're passionate about. And also, it's going to be in line with your beliefs and values. It has to be, as you rightly said, Gary, they are like stepping stones. And it will help you come back to question one, frankly, as we progress with these points.
Gary:
Excellent advice that it does, it adds up to, because you mentioned for people who aren't sure what their true calling is, it can seem like it's an odd place to start, but you can, as you said, you have an idea. These other questions that you're asking here will help solidify that idea for you, as you just said. So let's move on to four. And again, now we move into how do your skills and abilities fit in? And I love that you used the phrase fit in, because here we've listed these three previous. Now, okay, now you're asking how do your skills and ability fit in with all the stuff we've just talked about? So how do they fit in when we're building a life that we don't want to escape from?
Warwick Fairfax:
It may seem obvious that we should follow a calling, a job that we have skills and abilities for, but so many people actually don't do this. So I've known friends or friends of family members who maybe their mom or dad was a doctor or a dentist, and maybe had the intellectual capacity to do that, but they're all thumbs when it came to working with their hands. They just couldn't do the actual fine dexterity work that you need to do with a dentist. That's great you got good grades, but you've got to be able to get your hands in somebody's mouth with tools and do stuff without hurting them.
If your fingers and thumbs, it's like, well, maybe you should follow another profession. It'd be like, gee, my mom or dad's an accountant, but I hate numbers. Well, then don't do that. I don't care if it's a great job or it's a great business. So it sounds obvious, but there are so many people that ignore this and try to be practical. It's not practical to do a job or profession that's not using those skills and abilities, because ultimately you'll fail and you'll disappoint people. So why do that?
Gary:
This point four has been the one that has gotten me closest to a life I wanted to escape from. Of all the ones that you listed here, and because it is, you use the phrase soul-destroying, soul crushing sometimes about just being, playing out of position, being in the midst of a crucible, rooted in what we did or what was done to us. When I graduated from college, I graduated with an English degree, which doesn't really qualify. I used to say, doesn't qualify me to do anything except talk like, no one's going to know who this is, Richard Dawson. He used to host Family Feud, who was English. That's what my English degree allowed me to do, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
And I remember him and just for TV fans, he was also in Hogan's Heroes.
Gary:
That's right, that's right. So I graduated with that English degree and I pursued teaching that I didn't want to do that. And then, what do I do? Where do I go? And I, for my brother sold cars. And he was like, okay. I'm like two weeks. He said, "In two weeks, come sell cars for me."
Because I couldn't find a job. And talk about feeling like you are at a place where you wanted to escape. I wasn't even in the job yet. I was just pondering trying to sell cars, because I just, I'm not a car guy. I'm not a salesman in that sense, selling you a thing as opposed to an experience or as opposed to a skill. I'm good at selling in a public relations sense, but I'm not good at selling here. Buy this Cordoba, which was a car back when this was up, when this came up in the '80s.
So this one really strikes home to me, this idea of skills and abilities. I think that for me would've been the most, oh gosh, please let me out of here. And I was fortunate enough that a newspaper job opened up and I became a reporter and never had to sell cars ever. So that worked out pretty well. We will move on now to point five in the blog and this is an interesting one, Warwick, and this is one of the ones that I talked earlier about how you can see some of these in an earlier blog that you wrote about saying, "No, this was not a point from that earlier blog." And this point is, how do we want the rhythms of our life to look? Explain what you mean by that and how it applies to this situation.
Warwick Fairfax:
In my particular case, there are a number of things I want to do in life. I love Beyond the Crucible, but I love the church we go to, which is having such an impact. I've been an elder there for many years, and we meet twice a month. And just to give you an idea, one of those meetings, we have different staff people. It might be the woman that leads our children's ministry or maybe it's community groups or global missions. And it doesn't matter who it is. Every time I hear somebody talk, it's like, I can't believe, it feels like God's doing miracles in that ministry. People are being helped. We partner with churches and ministries all throughout the globe. So it's incredibly fulfilling just to be there and hear what's going on. And I could use that example of any of the other organizations I'm involved in, and they're all faith-based organizations, where I feel like from my faith paradigm, God has really shown up mightily.
So we get to design the rhythms of our life, the things we want to do in life. So for me, and I said this to my kids when they were young, they're all adults now, because I was involved with my kids' school a few years ago. It was a Christian school, and I would tell them my work as an elder at my church and on the board of the Christian school, and what I do back then, I guess I was writing my book for a lot of years. That's all part of my calling. I explained it. This is all part of what I do to me professionally, if you will. Maybe that's not the right word, but probably what I used back then. And the other thing is, I'm from Australia and the Australian ethos is a little different in that you work hard, but we like to have a life. So for Australians, it might be surfing or playing golf on the weekend, and even the professions where in this country people might work 24 hours a day, like being a lawyer, investment banker or something.
Those people might go home at seven or eight, which here in New York where I worked in banking, that's like half a day, leaving then. And of course, you work weekends. I mean, you have no life. I mean, I'm extrapolating a bit, but it's true to a large degree. Well, and I'd like to think it's changing as people get a bit more common sense. So for me, whatever I do, I work out at a hundred percent. That's just my nature. But I wanted to spend time with my kids when they're growing up, with friends. I want to be able to spend time with my wife, have a walk at the end of the day, which I often do. I mean, there are things I like to do in life. I don't like to work all weekend. Sometimes there are things I have to do, but I believe it's okay to have a weekend. So it's not that I don't work hard, I do, but I believe in a balanced life that's sort of a part of my wiring and also my belief system.
Gary:
Indeed, that is fifth Point in the blog, Want to Build a Life That You Don't Want to Escape From. The sixth point is this, which gets to where the rubber meets the road for Beyond the Crucible, and that is how do you see this all adding up to a life of significance? I will ask you why that's important. I think folks know why that's important, but specifically in the context of this blog that we're talking about, why is that so important?
Warwick Fairfax:
So getting back to what is your true calling, a true calling that gives us joy and fulfillment from our belief and our construct of Beyond the Crucible has to lead to a life of significance. It's our belief that for life to be fulfilling, it has to add up to a life of significance. It's our belief at Beyond the Crucible, that only a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others will give you true joy and fulfillment. For some people, they might think that it's all about power and money, but power and money are really not fulfilling. You could really consult almost any major religion or spiritual way of thinking. Having an other-filled, purpose-driven life, it's only there that happiness is found. And so, as you're thinking about what should your true calling be, it has to lead to a life of significance.
Gary:
Yeah. And when you have that moment when a life lived on purpose dedicated to serving others. So just think of a time in your life, folks, when you have served others, when you've done something nice for someone, you've helped someone along the path. Think about how that felt. And then ask yourself this question, do you want to escape from that feeling? I don't think you do, right? I mean, I think that point six really hits this subject, because when you do that, there's no way on earth you want to escape from that, right? I don't think anybody would want to escape from that.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true when maybe you connect somebody with somebody that could help them. I did that the other day with somebody at Taylor, and it doesn't matter the circumstances, but I didn't think it was that big a deal, but it's like, thank you so much, boy, I'm so excited. And sometimes these, they're not random acts of kindness, they're purpose-filled acts of kindness. It might not take a big sacrifice. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it just takes a minute to write an email. How hard is that? Often not really hard. And you might think, "It's not that big a deal. I don't really deserve a gold medal or a Nobel Prize. It's just whatever. I just did a nice thing. It's not a big deal." But often other people feel it's a far bigger deal than we might think. So what does that mean? Those intentional acts of kindness, they add up to a life of significance.
And often we don't often understand the impact that we're having on others. Often we have a bigger impact on people than we think. We kind of dismiss it when we get a compliment, because for most of us, certainly for me, it's very hard to hear compliments. They just say, "Whatever," and just change the subject.
But whether we are willing to realize it or whether we're willing to own it, or accept it, those small acts of kindness, purpose-filled decisions, purpose-filled acts that we take, decisions to connect others to help somebody, they can make an enormous difference in people's lives, far more than often we'll ever know. But sometimes we help people and we never know how much we help them, and that's fine. But sometimes from my perspective, there's grace and we get to see a little bit of what we've done. As somebody says thank you, we see the evidence of our work, if you will, and that is incredibly fulfilling. It reminds me of the guest we had on, I forget the person's name, but the purple file, because I know that really resonated with you.
Gary:
Dennis Gillan. Yeah.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. So just talk a bit about that, because I think it's on point of where you're assembling basically a life of significance file. I don't think he calls it that.
Gary:
No.
Warwick Fairfax:
But talk about why that's so helpful and why that was helpful to you.
Gary:
Yeah. Dennis Gillan, the guest, you can go searching at beyondthecrucible.com to find that podcast that we did with Dennis. Dennis is a suicide prevention speaker. Two of his brothers committed suicide, and he now speaks, goes all over the country and speaks, talking about how you cope with that, how you see signs of that, how you prevent that if you can't prevent that. But one of the things he did when he was first stepping out speaking, and he had this article published in Entrepreneur Magazine in the beginning, the first little article at the start, it was about something he called the purple file. And the purple file is a file where he takes any correspondence, email, notes that people have sent him, cards people have given him, in which they affirm him in some way or another. And he puts them in the file. And it's not a brag book. He doesn't go, "Hey, look at my purple file," to people.
It's for those moments, because given what his job is as a speaker, not every speech is going to be received well. He is not going to get the standing ovation every time. There can be a lot of feelings of, "Oops, I missed that one," sometimes. And he created the file to look at, to remind him, to give him a shot in the arm when he needed it. And I was so moved by that. A, I saw him out to be a guest on the show, and he agreed, and it was a great episode, but I created my own purple file and I have stuff in there from cards I got from my grandmother, who has been gone now for like 35 years. Things that people have said to me, how I've helped them, how I've blessed them, how their life is different, what they appreciate about me, all those things. And it's a great place to go when I've had not a great day, and I keep it right at my desk within an arm's reach that I can pull from if I need it while I'm working during the day.
And I know where it is if I come home and I've been out, and something happened, and I need to be reminded of that. So we encourage folks when we did the episode with Dennis to start their own purple file, and I would encourage you folks to look at the episode, Dennis Gillan, and in fact, we can put it in the show notes. I'll put a link in the show notes, where people can find that episode. But that is one way, great memory, Warwick. That's one way to measure what we're talking about here, about adding up to a life of significance. Everybody who sends something, everybody who gives you something that you can put in a purple file, is living life on purpose. And they're dedicated to serving others, because they've done something to lift you up. And I mean, you're right. It could be called a life of significance folder if you wanted it to be.
Warwick Fairfax:
And one reason why that's so helpful, I think you've indicated is life is tough. You might feel like, "Am I living my true calling? Am I really helping anybody? Because maybe I'm not. Maybe my life is a waste and I'm just really not impacting people." But you pull out that file, it's like, "You know what? This says that a lot of people feel like I've impacted them to some degree." If they feel like you've impacted them, then you have. That's their perception. That's their reality. And so, I think in that sense, it's true. If they feel it's true, it's true.
Gary:
The blog that we're talking about is called Want to Build a Life You Don't Want to Escape From. And here are the points, the first six points that we've talked about, about how you build that life. One, ask yourself this question, what is your true calling? Two, what are you really passionate about? Three, what are your beliefs and values? Four, how do your abilities and skills fit in? Five, how do we want the rhythms of our life to look? Six, how do we see this adding up to a life of significance? Which brings us, Warwick, as we build the steps up the staircase to the top, and that is this. Number seven, how big do we want this vision to be for the life that we don't want to escape from? How big do we want it to be?
Warwick Fairfax:
So I think, how big do you want this vision to be? You've got to ask yourself, "What does my calling look like? What does my life, the significance look like? What do I want the rhythms of my life to look like?" And it's okay to say, "You know what? I love what I do, but there are limits."
And I've tried to do that here. I love what I do Beyond the Crucible. Yes, there are other things that I do, these other non-profits I'm involved in. But absent that, these other three non-profits and what I do Beyond the Crucible, my kids are older, but we spend time on a ski vacation typically once a year. We see each other a fair amount. And fortunately, our kids love coming back and seeing us. Two of them don't live in Maryland where we live. So that's important to me. So I'm not going to say, "Okay, well, I'm going to launch all these new initiatives at Beyond the Crucible, and it means I'll have no time for my family or friends." It's like, I'm not doing that. Bigger is not always better.
Gary:
Now, folks, that was point seven. And this is the time, if you've listened to episodes, any episodes really, when we get to the last point of something, that's the time I will say something about the captain's turning on the fasten seatbelt sign. But guess what? We're circling the airport. Just one more circle or two around the airport, because there's a very, very interesting question I want to ask Warwick here at the end, now that we've been through all the points, and that is simply this. There's another reason, isn't there, Warwick, why this topic is so resonant with you, this idea of having a life you don't want to escape from, and it's very personal, why this is so important to you. Tell folks about that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I grew up in 150 year old family media business in Australia. And I've talked about this a bit, obviously in podcasts, but this was a life that was designed for me from birth, the idea of living a life I wanted to escape from. It's just, well, it's about my duty, it's about serving the nation of Australia. It's like my desires and wants are irrelevant. What I feel like the personal calling of my life is completely irrelevant. So design a life you love and you don't want to escape from, irrelevant topic, irrelevant question, meaningless.
Because for me, I was seen by my parents as the heir apparent of this 150 year old family company. It was a very large diversified company having newspapers, TV, magazines, radio. And my whole life, I sought to ensure that I'd be prepared to one day go into this family business. That was the expectations certainly of my parents. I worked hard at school, got good grades, did my undergrad at Oxford like my dad and some other relatives, worked in Wall Street, got my MBA from Harvard Business School. It was all about getting the skills and abilities that I thought was needed at John Fairfax Limited, the family business. It wasn't all about doing what I thought I had aptitude in that was irrelevant too. Get the skills you need to do the job you're called to do.
It was sort of my mindset. And so, I felt like was all about duty to honor the family legacy of my father, of my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax. It was about designing a life to preserve the legacy of the family and the family of business. That was the life I was designing. Design the life that was needed and I was going to fit myself into that come what may. If I was a round peg in a square hole, doesn't matter. Push harder, fit yourself into that mold, whatever it takes. That's where you're going. That's where you're called to. And if you love your family, you love your country, you will do this. This is your calling.
Gary:
Right, so let's try this. Let me do this with you. Let me go through the seven points and ask you each of the seven points. Let me be like a game show host, asking you the seven points and get your answers to the seven points of how, who was known as young Warwick in Australia back in the day, how young Warwick would have responded to these questions when they were posed. So we'll start with the first one. What is your true calling?
Warwick Fairfax:
I believe my true calling was to preserve the legacy of John Fairfax and my family. That was my calling. That was my calling before I was even born. It was designed before birth.
Gary:
What are you truly passionate about? Again, this is you answering the question back in the day.
Warwick Fairfax:
Same answer, preserving the legacy of John Fairfax and making my parents proud of me, and I was passionate about that. I even wrote a letter to a relative of mine during the takeover that said what I was doing, try to preserve the company in the image of the founder, that there was a vision that was burning a hole in my heart. Sounds like off the charts passionate, doesn't it?
Gary:
Right. It does.
Warwick Fairfax:
And in a sense I was, but again, not my vision. It was frankly not even my dad's vision. It was the legacy and vision of my great-great-grandfather, the founder of the founding business, John Fairfax.
Gary:
What are your beliefs and values, Mr. Fairfax?
Warwick Fairfax:
And not surprisingly, similar answer. Ask me any question you want to, and I'll give you the same answer. I mean, it's not quite that way, but it's sort of comical. It's definitely on that wavelength. So faith became important to me through an evangelical church while I was at Oxford University, and since the founder of John Fairfax of the family business was a man of very strong faith. Then I thought, "Well, clearly I've been put on this earth to preserve the beliefs and values of John Fairfax," and not so much to make it a religious paper, but more in terms of how people were treated, to report fairly, even-handedly. So my beliefs and values after I came to faith in Christ at Oxford, it's like, well, clearly I want people to be treated and the values of the organization to be in tune with the values of the founder. So yes, my beliefs and values are completely in harmony with what I feel my calling is.
Gary:
How do your skills and abilities fit in?
Warwick Fairfax:
Somewhat irrelevant question, but I would use all the skills and abilities that I had to preserve the legacy of John Fairfax. So it's like I'm a reflective advisor. I like to think I write reasonably well, but what I felt like in the family business, my dad was a writer and wrote articles in his younger days, but he really wasn't a business guy, a finance guy. So I thought we need more family members to know something about business and finance, hence Wall Street, Harvard Business School. But it wasn't like I had this abiding interest in finance. I still don't.
Gary:
Well, let's try the next one. Point five. Round peg, square hole. Point five is how do you want the rhythms of your life to look?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, completely irrelevant question. You do whatever it takes to preserve the legacy of John Fairfax. If that means burning the candle at both ends and working 24 hours a day, you do that. During the takeover years, we visited some investment bankers in New York, we came back Australia, something came up and within five or six hours, we're on the plane again to go back to New York. That's like a 21-hour plus plane ride, five or six hours break. But sometimes there are reasons you go to do that. I get it. But in this case, it was like rhythms of life. You just, 24/7, you do whatever you can, because it's a noble cause. It's John Fairfax's image, preserving the image of the founder. Don't you care about your country? So yeah, in that sense, rhythms are irrelevant. You do whatever it takes. 24/7.
Gary:
I feel a bit like a lawyer who's cross-examining you here. So Mr. Fairfax, point six, how do you see this all adding up to a life of significance?
Warwick Fairfax:
That's an easy question. Clearly, by preserving the amazing legacy of John Fairfax and how this would impact the nation of Australia. I mean, don't you care about your country? I mean, we had the main quality newspapers in our country, The Sydney Morning Herald, The Age in Melbourne, and the Australian Financial Review, kind of like the Wall Street Journal. What's my life of significance? To impact the nation of Australia through quality journalism and preserving the legacy and values of John Fairfax. That's about as epic a life of significance as you could imagine. So absolutely, fits to me.
Gary:
And lastly, number seven, that question is how big did you want that vision to be?
Warwick Fairfax:
As big as possible. The sky's the limit. You want to impact as much of the nation of Australia as you possibly can, as many people, especially work for John Fairfax Limited. All the people would read the newspapers, watch the TV stations, listen to radio. So absolutely no limits. You want the vision to be expand and be as big as possible.
Gary:
So you've just answered those seven questions, Warwick, that you proposed to blog readers first. Now we're proposing to podcast listeners and viewers. What does it all add up to the younger you in the earlier situation? How does that all leave you feeling now that you've done it?
Warwick Fairfax:
I was in this sort of gilded prison in a way. It was a life I didn't even know that I wanted to escape from. I did want to escape from that, but I didn't do that. Some people might say subconsciously that when I did this $2.25 billion takeover in 1987, subconsciously maybe I wanted it to metaphorically blow up, so I'd have to leave. Absolutely consciously, I did not do that. Three years later, the takeover ended up failing, the company went into bankruptcy. But I don't know, obviously you can't psychoanalyze yourself, but...
Gary:
Oh, sure you can. It's probably not healthy, but sure you can.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. But basically I was living, I wasn't even living my dad's life. I mean, my dad [inaudible 00:50:45] that happy, he was a good journalist and a gifted writer, and he wrote sort of philosophy books. Would've been a great philosophy professor. But he loved the country. And we had a property outside of Sydney where he had... Paul Hereford [inaudible 00:51:00], I think as they're called here. And you see his expression with his straw hat out on the land and seeing the cattle. There's this big smile on his face. Then you see a photograph of him at the office. There's this dour photo. It's not like he didn't feel loyal or committed to it. But yes, he loved writing, but yet there's a part of that feels like certainly some parts of this journey he didn't enjoy. John Fairfax was an entrepreneur, a business guy. That was clearly his vision, but it wasn't my vision and it was this sort of gilded prison that I was born into that I could not have escaped.
And so, as I've thought about this whole podcast and the blog that I wrote, you could have sat down with me at the time as you kind of did in a way. And it runs through the seven questions. And I would've thought not very helpful, kind of irrelevant. I know my destiny, I know my life of significance. I know my journey and what I want to do in life is irrelevant. It's self-centered to ask yourself what do you want out of life? Choose your own adventure. It's a very self-centered thing. Shouldn't life be about other people? So I would've found a way to dismiss the whole thing. So really, I think one key thing for this is, one key point is you've got to ask yourself or you've got to say to yourself, "It's okay to live a life that I love."
It's not okay to live a life that you want to escape from. You want to live a life that you feel called to, that you feel passionate about. It's not about making other people happy in terms of friends and family. It's about living a life that you believe in, not somebody else's life. We only have one and only life. And so for me, that's why the subject is so important, because for many years of my life, it was all about living a life to make others happy, ultimately to make my parents or my great-great-grandfather happy. So when I had that conversation several weeks ago with Beyond the Crucible team, starting out with what does Warwick want? That is completely antithetical to the way I tend to think. But I wanted to do that, because I like every other human on this planet has a God-given right to live the life that they want to live, that they feel called to.
And so, like everybody else, I force myself to say, okay, there's a number of things I'm involved in that I love, these other nonprofits I mentioned, I want to spend time with my family. I love what I do, Beyond the Crucible, but there's balance. I'm not going to be defined by numbers. We track podcast downloads, viewership on YouTube. We track all sorts of things, but my identity is not going to be wrapped up in a number, as good as, as important as they are. So you really got to ask yourself, "Is it okay for me to design a life that I love, a life that I don't want to escape from?" You got to say, "Well, yes, we're designed a certain way by God. It's okay to live a life that you love and you don't have to apologize to anybody for it."
Gary:
So one more question. The $64,000, well, okay, the $2.25 billion question, I guess, not the $64,000 question. And that is this, when you answered all of those, as you ran through all those seven points, was the life that you were heading toward, would that have been a life that you would've wanted to escape from, do you think?
Warwick Fairfax:
I think now, absolutely. Then if you hypnotize me or if you psychoanalyze me, it was clear I wanted to escape from that life. It was clear that I felt imprisoned. I spent years away from Australia, three years at Oxford. It was a three-year degree. I spent three years in Wall Street, in New York. I spent two years at Harvard Business School. So that's like eight years. I went back and visited. That's eight years out of Australia. If I could have stayed away forever, I would. I love my family, but being away from Australia, it was freedom.
Yeah, but ultimately I felt like I had to come back. And as I was ending my time at Harvard Business School, my dad was filled with cancer. He died in early '87, January '87. That was my last semester at Harvard Business School. So clearly I had to come back. Family business was getting in turmoil. I couldn't stay away. I couldn't get some job in America, which like other Harvard Business School graduates did. I had to come home. But no, clearly I wanted to escape, but I felt like escape is impossible, because I got to do my duty. Unfortunately, in one sense, duty is a very big thing for me. So yeah, it was a gilded prison, but the only way I could have left is the way it ended.
Gary:
So we're going to end this episode like we always do episodes about the blog that you've written, by running through three questions for reflection that folks can ask themselves and sort of process through. But what you just said there at the end about the younger you, you really didn't see any way that you could have escaped that life, that would have been something that you didn't want to be part of. It was a life you wanted to escape from. We say often at Beyond the Crucible that we're dealers in hope. And that's where we hope, we hope that this podcast and the blog on which it's based will help you get to a place of hope, where you're going to find yourself in the same kind of position where you feel you have no way out. And here's reflection questions that will help you as you navigate your way, if you find yourself even in the same zip code as a life you want to escape.
First one is this, what is your true calling that you want to invest your one and only life in? Reflection question one. Number two, how does this calling line up with your beliefs and values, and your skills and abilities? And finally, point number three of reflection. How do you want the rhythms of your life to look? You get to design not just your calling, but the pace of life you want to lead. You don't need to apologize to anyone for this. Period, exclamation point. Since we both have backgrounds in newspapers, I'll put a 30 at the end. We have wrapped this episode of Beyond the Crucible Warwick, folks. Warwick and I have a couple of favors to ask you. One, if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast app, ask that you would like the show.
That would be great. Help other people get to see it, learn about it, and hear these kinds of discussions. And if you're watching us on YouTube, please also leave us a comment there. Subscribe to the show there, but also leave us a comment. Tell us what you liked about this discussion. And in any discussion you may have watched there. And until the next time we're together, please remember, we know your crucible experiences are hard work. And I've talked about our crucible experiences quite a bit on this show, not this particular episode maybe, but in the course of more than 250 episodes of this show, lots of crucibles have been shared. We know they're difficult, but we also know they're not the end of your story. They can be the beginning, in fact, of a new story if you learn the lessons of them. And where that new story can carry you is to a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the helper or the individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.
</div
