The Power of Flexible Leadership: Kevin Eikenberry

Warwick Fairfax:
“Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I’m Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible.

Kevin Eikenberry:
The reality is the firm rooting for us as leaders are our principles, our values, our purpose, right? The overriding mission of our business, if you will. Those things aren’t moving, and so that becomes the firm foundation upon which our plant, us as leaders can grow.

Gary:
But life and leadership are about more than the things that are foundational to our day-to-day existence. It’s also important as our guests this week, Kevin Eikenberry goes on to explain that we’re flexible enough to account for the shifting circumstances we encounter. That’s especially true when crucibles hit. “The key to navigating the middle ground,” he says, “is the art of negotiating life’s flexors,” as we practice the title of his latest book, Flexible Leadership.

Warwick Fairfax:
Well, Kevin, it’s a delight to have you on our podcast, and I so much enjoyed being on your podcast, Remarkable Leadership, and we’re going to talk quite a bit today about your new book that’s coming out, Flexible Leadership, Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. Before we get to that, I’d love to hear a bit about the back story. Understand you grew up in a farm in Michigan that really shaped a lot of your thinking, so just talk about what was it like for young Kevin growing up in Michigan on a farm?

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, I suppose I could say I had the idyllic childhood. It’s the only one I had. I’m pretty happy with it. I mean, I think there’s a lot of good things about growing up in the country, growing up on a farm. Again, it is my experience, but there’s a lot of ways in which it shaped me. I saw something the other day that reminded me that farmers may be the biggest gamblers on the planet. They invest a bunch of money and then they go borrow a bunch of money and then they put a crop in the ground and then they hope things go well enough that they actually can get a crop out in a few months, or if it’s animals, it’s a similar sort of thing. There’s a bunch of stuff outside of their control, and so they try to influence what they can.
I think I learned a lot about that. I learned a lot about the idea of influence as a kid. I had the chance in many ways to grow up with my parents because they’re just 20 years older than I. I was tagging along with dad in the truck to meetings. I was interacting with folks a lot older than me at a very young age, which served me super well early in my career. We had an ag business related to the farm, and so I had a lot in both of those endeavors. I had a tremendous amount of responsibility that at a very young age that is pretty hard to replicate. For all those reasons, plus just I think it’s pretty safe to say that I learned the value of hard work. There’s just so many ways in which work that it shaped me and has served me in my life.

Warwick Fairfax:
I know that we hear a lot in management about leading in uncertainty and all of that, and I am reminded growing up in Australia, my dad loved the country, and so we go out into the outback and there it’s pretty much, it’s either a drought or a flood. Rarely is it anywhere in between. Imagine, I don’t know how you farm there. You’ve got some places where it’s so desolate you can’t have more than one head of cattle per acre. I mean, it’s unbelievably desolate, you know hundreds of thousands of acres. Yeah, farming, it’s a tough life. I mean, you’ve got to lead with uncertainty when the context changes, the environment changes, the family may or may not want to go into the business. There’s all sorts of uncertainties. It’s got to be challenging. You probably must have learned some really key life lessons and management lessons from that family farm.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Yeah, I believe that I did. I think that there’s another piece there, and that is that I think the other thing that I learned was in a small business, and so this may be a little less farm-related, but being involved in a small business, a family business from an early age, there’s a sense of ownership that I always thought people, everybody took in their work. I came to learn that not everyone has that level of ownership in their work, but I think it served me, I mean, it took me a while to figure that out when I was working in a big company and that sort of thing.
I think how that served me was I saw a picture of what employee engagement could be and really can be. I think that that’s helped me in leading our team, and I think it’s helped me help other leaders see what’s possible. Well, all the conversation that it gets had about employee engagement and all that stuff and all this stuff we’ve been trying to do, we as leaders, been trying to do for 30 years about increasing employee engagement. According to our friends at Gallup, the number isn’t really moving very much. Yet I think that if we have a vision of what that could be and if we understand what engagement really is, then we got a better chance of helping to move that needle for our team, for our teams.

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, talking about some of the values and things that you hold most dear, I mean, one of the things I know that you’ve said, is there a couple of key words for you, several, family, trust, values, possibilities, and empowerment. Talk about how your experience of growing up in that family farm taught you what are probably just lifelong values or as a friend of mine calls them virtues, perhaps. Talk about how those things are really the core of who you’re and what you believe.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, I think that all of us develop our values, at least in part through our experiences as a kid. We’ve talked about some of the things that helped to lead that for me, but I think a couple of other things beyond what I’ve already said is that first of all, I mean, it’s that value of hard work and it’s that value of recognizing doing what we can influence even if we don’t always have control. I’ve got this sort of tremendous sense. Well, I’ll go back and say I had the good fortune several years after graduating from Purdue with a degree in agriculture to be asked to come back and I got an award and as an alumni, and they said, “Well, Kevin, you don’t do work that’s at all what you went to school for. What’s the connective tissue?”
I said, “Well, I went to school to learn how to lead and grow mechanical and biological systems, and now I help to lead and develop and grow human systems.” I think the value that I have around just growth and the pleasure in seeing growth happen, whether it’s in a field as the crop comes up and you can see down the row, my dad would say a very straight row, by the way. Then seeing that in members of my team or in those that we have the chance to work with in workshops or in a keynote setting or whatever, is just, I can draw that connection all the way back to my kidhood as well.

Warwick Fairfax:
That kind of leads into your career. I think what you’re touching on after Purdue, you work for Chevron, apparently. It’s obviously a very big oil company. Was that, for some reason I thought it was San Francisco. Was that the West Coast or maybe-

Kevin Eikenberry:
Yeah, it’s San Francisco. I mean it’s now not officially San Francisco, but the Bay Area, but when I was there it was, and so I worked in the chemical business, in the fertilizer business at first. Makes sense. You’re in an agricultural guy. I relatively quickly found my way figured out and then found my way into the corporate training and development group, which was sort of the jumping off point to the work that I’ve been doing now outside of Chevron for over 31 years. I had a great fortune there to work with some leaders who were really wonderful, who were great exemplars, who were great mentors, who believed in me, who helped me move from the chemical business to the people business. Yeah, I’m forever grateful for the time that I had the chance to spend there.

Warwick Fairfax:
Talk about that pivot. I mean, it may not have been a crucible moment, but it was certainly a key shift in your career. You could have stayed at Chevron or other large corporate organizations, and my guess is with your hard work ethic and drive, you probably could have done pretty well if not very well, and risen up the ladder. You made a decision in 1993, and I love how you put it, but how you shifted from Chevron to decided to come back to the Midwest, come to Indianapolis. Talk about why you made that decision, why leave, why come back to the Midwest, Indianapolis? That was a huge shift in your career.

Kevin Eikenberry:
It really was, and there’s a couple of pieces. The first is because you all know now a little bit about my background background, and so I really never saw myself being employed, but rather to be an entrepreneur, to run a business. Even when I started at Chevron, in fact, the first interview I had, I told who became my boss, I said, “Listen, I’m really not looking for a job.” At the end of the interview he said, “I’d like you to go talk to my boss about this job, but as long as you don’t lead with your first line, isn’t Kevin … Kevin, don’t just start by saying, ‘I’m not looking for a job.'” I said, “I can promise I won’t do that.” I ended up taking the job and I was there, but my goal always was to start my own thing. While I was at Chevron, I figured out what that was, which is the work that I do now.
Once I got into doing training and development work inside of the corporation, and I figured out that that’s really what my calling was, then with the forethought that I wanted to have my own business and with now the great clarity that came with this is the work that decision was I think easier than most might think. On the other hand, within one year we had our first child, I started a business and we moved. The only thing I didn’t have was a marriage, a divorce and a death to have the top six most stressful things in life. I suppose three of the top six.
I am doing the work I was put on the planet to do, and I’m very clear on that. I’m clearer on that now than I was in 1993. Yet that clarity had a big part to do with, I’m going to leave. Now, a lot of people at Chevron thought I was only leaving because I wanted to live in the Midwest, come back to the Midwest where I’m from, where my wife’s from, raise our family here, which, of course, is true. As an individual business owner, I could choose to live wherever I wanted to. I needed to be by a big airport. Other than that, it didn’t matter. But that really wasn’t the biggest reason. It was a really nice extra reason.

Warwick Fairfax:
I love how you term it, that your life’s purpose was to grow people, not plants or animals. I’m sure purpose tends to evolve and maybe not shift, but it gets more clarity, but it seemed like you had a clear vision. I spent my early years growing plants and animals, but I want to grow people. I want to help people flourish and grow and live their own lives. It just seemed like you had a clear purpose when you started your business in ’93.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, it has evolved a bit. I mean, that underlying point that you just made is still 100% true. Over time, it became being largely about leaders because if we can help leaders grow, then we can help the world change. It is still about growing people and certainly, we’re working with people across organizations and around the world, but we spend most of our time with leaders because that’s the highest leverage point. Because nothing positive happens in the world without somebody leading. Things can go negative without help, but things aren’t going to go positive on their own. Someone needs to say, “Let’s go that direction, let’s go to there.” If we can help leaders be more effective, we’re not only helping them, there’s a ripple effect across the organization in the community and eventually around the world. That’s the only, that’s sort of the clarification that’s come over time.

Warwick Fairfax:
That’s great. I want to talk a bit about your book and as we talk about your new book, Flexible Leadership, Navigating Uncertainty and Leading with Confidence, we’ll also weave in how you bounce back from crucibles because obviously on this podcast we talk about how do you not let your worst day define you and its leaders? Organizations can go through crucibles, leaders are human, their families, their situation, their town, their context. Yeah, maybe let’s just talk about it from the point of view of your book. You’re a thought leader, you’ve written many books, you have a wonderful podcast, Remarkable Leadership. You do [inaudible 00:14:12]-

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, it’s wonderful because you were on it so that automatically [inaudible 00:14:16].

Gary:
I should say it was his first podcast appearance. That was your first podcast work was Remarkable Leadership.

Warwick Fairfax:
When I was on somebody else’s podcast, yeah, so that was a while ago. You do so much good for leaders and empowering them in so many ways. Let’s talk a bit about flexible leadership and why. I think you’ve said this may be one of, if not your best book yet. I think I read somewhere that you’ve said. Talk about, because you’ve been in this a while about leadership and helping empowering leaders, talk about why this to you feels different. It’s not just one more book that you’ve written. It feels like almost a seminal work in your career. Talk about why this is so important to you.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, I’d like to think it’s a seminal work, and if we sell a lot of copies and it makes a difference, then I’ll claim that. What I will claim is that even though we’ve had the good fortune to sell a lot of books over the last number of years, I do believe, and two of my co-authors work for me. For me to say, “This is my best work,” it may not feel real great to them, but ultimately, I do believe that it is. The ideas underneath it took several years to coalesce and for me to have the, I’ll say, confidence to put it to paper because, I think, it is different than a lot of leadership books, and that’s even sort of hard to say. Knowing how many books about leadership there are, knowing how many of them I’ve read, it’s different in some ways because it challenges some traditional thinking.
While oftentimes, authors will say, realistically, “That leadership is complex, here are some simple things that you can do.” That’s kind of a paradoxical in and of itself, and yet that helps to sell books, “Try these 12 things or these four things or whatever,” and that’s all great, and that’s all well-intentioned and quite honestly, in Flexible Leadership right from the start, I’m saying if you make the choice, if you see the picture I’m painting for you, it’s going to make your job harder before it makes it easier because it forces us to look at things differently than our natural reactions, our natural tendencies, our past habits, our past experiences.
It forces us to consider some things a little differently on the front end. I think on the back end, it’s well worth the effort, but it is different in that regard. I think I come at it pretty clear-eyed that this is hard work and leading while in some ways hasn’t changed since the pyramids. The context and the nuance has changed a lot and it’s changed a lot in the last few years. Since we locked down the world and Corona became a beer, excuse me, became something other than a beer, the world has changed a lot in a very short period of time, and that’s not the only stuff that’s creating uncertainty, but that’s certainly part of it.
To think that we can lead the way we always did, because that’s my style, that’s my approach, that’s what’s always worked for me to think that it will still work as the context is changing and the complexity is increasing. Seems sort of silly. I think almost everyone would agree with that once I say it, and yet most of us are still sort of operating as leaders largely on autopilot and wondering why engagement’s not increasing, productivity is not increasing, et cetera, et cetera.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I want to pick up on that, but one of the things I loved in the early part of the book is you talk about, yes, the world’s growing more complicated and challenging, and we’ve got to find ways to understand that context without losing sight of what matters most. You say that that’s the key goal, basically see and embrace complexity, but yet, and you write later on about a branch is pliant, but the tree is firmly rooted. I feel like this book is a book of paradoxes and we’ll get into flexors later, which is a series of paradoxes. It’s sort of like embrace the paradox. You want to be firmly rooted in your values and purpose, which you talk about later. You got to be flexible. It’s like, huh? It’s like a book of paradoxes. Talk about just that yin and yang, that the paradox, which you’re really seeking leaders to embrace amidst a complex world.

Kevin Eikenberry:
It’s really interesting. You’re the first person that’s used that word, paradox. May not be the last, but the first one in these early conversations I’ve had, and when I first was the ideas for the book, I actually thought something about paradoxical leadership or something around the word paradox might actually be the title. I’m actually glad it’s not now. Yet there’s no doubt, they’re all through the book and that’s the first one.
The very first word in the title is flexible. Yet a lot of people say, “Wait a minute, Kevin, shouldn’t we be consistent? Isn’t consistency good?” Until it’s not. There’s the paradox, and you use the metaphor of the tree. A tree or any plant needs to be flexible above the ground to bend with the wind, to not snap. If it’s too rigid, it’s going to snap in the elements, if you will. If it’s not firmly rooted, it’s not going to survive either. The reality is the firm rooting for us as leaders are our principles, our values, our purpose, the overriding mission of our business, if you will. Those things aren’t moving. That becomes the firm foundation upon which our plant, us as leaders can grow, but once as we’re growing, we have to be flexible and pliable and adaptable, because while we want to be firmly rooted in the principles, values, and purpose, we need to be flexible in approach.

Gary:
Let me jump in just for a second and pull this into the Crucible Leadership context because that’s a paradox in itself. One of the things we say all the time here is your crucible experience didn’t happen to you. It happened for you. Which sounds paradoxical, right? This terrible, life-changing, life-altering thing didn’t happen to me. It happened for me. You said something, Kevin, in the document, we have guests fill out so we can ask informed questions. You said this about crucibles, “Don’t deny the setback, but work to gain perspective on it. There are lessons to learn, so learn them. There are positives that will come from the setback. Look for them and make sure you don’t try to do any of it alone.” This idea of being flexible in leadership also applies to being flexible when you’ve gone through some trial and trauma, doesn’t it?

Kevin Eikenberry:
100%. I mean, I can give you all sorts of examples of that. I’ll give you an example from our business because Warwick, earlier you made a comment that we experienced crucibles, our businesses experienced crucibles, and we had one of those in our business this year. A member of our team has been here a very long time, wakes up one morning and finds out about 45 minutes later that her adult daughter has died in a car accident. Then that information gets to our team, a team of 15 people-ish. It’s a big thing. I mean, there’s the impact that it has on Marlene and her family, the impact that it has on us as a part of her extended family, the impact it has on the business in terms of her not having, understandably, having the level of focus and ability to do work for some period of time and really, for some long period of time, continuing to heal is a huge thing.
Would we wish it to happen? I think that’s what I would add, Gary, to what I wrote to you guys before we did this. Just because we find positives from it doesn’t mean it overcomes it or we would wish it to have happened because of that. It’s not. We can, another paradox, we can recognize the positives that come from a challenge or a crucible situation and not say, “Well, okay, now that overwhelms it, and so it’s a good thing that that bad thing happened.” No, that doesn’t have to be, both can be true. It can have been awful, and we can have great learning lessons, opportunities from it. Ultimately, and you mentioned it a minute ago, Warwick, about flexors. This idea of flexors in the book is that both can be true. We can be consistent and flexible. They are not opposites, though there might be tension.
We can have a crucible moment, which is awful and hard and difficult and life-changing, and yet from it, good things can come and both can be true.

Warwick Fairfax:
One of the other things I love and you talk about situations being clear, complicated, complex, chaotic, and all sorts of different environments, and I love how you talk about organizations as a living thing, which really brings leadership back to agriculture in a sense, which is cool.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, not the first person to talk about it like that after all. The word organization is actually based on the word organism, but yeah, it maybe is a nice connection point for me, but I’m certainly not the first person to bring that idea to the floor.

Warwick Fairfax:
It’s a good metaphor that we tend to view organizations in very rigid terms. This is our culture, this is our structure, this is how we do things, rather than what the context can change, that people can change, the competition, the marketplace, where we are in life, that we need to view it as more as a living thing and evolving thing and adaptable thing rather than some rigid structure, which most people don’t like change typically. I mean, they might change org charts. We say, “Well, we keep changing org charts, but basically we’re not really making much of a change. We’re just moving boxes around, but the essence of how we do things doesn’t change.” Talk about why that’s so critical to be fluid organizationally.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, and we do that, we change the org chart around because if we view the world, if we view business in a mechanical sense, I can take the toaster apart and I can put the toaster back together if have got the right skill set and then it’s still going to work. I can’t take apart your favorite pet and put your favorite pet back together and have it be the same thing. It just doesn’t work that way. Even the idea of we’ll change the org chart and change the organization, fundamentally says because the organization is mechanical. Yet all of the people who are in that organization are not mechanical. They are wonderful, amazing and messy human beings. It’s just back to flexors, right?
Are there things about organizations we’re thinking about it in a mechanical way or useful Yes. If we only think about it that way, is it most helpful? It is not. Is an organization exactly like an organism? Not exactly, but are there a lot of things about it that are more organism than mechanical? 100%. What I think is it’s not just … So hopefully, what I’m helping people do is see the world differently rather than just saying, “Well, you really ought to try to be fluid or you really ought to try to be flexible,” but here’s why. Because fundamentally it’s what will it actually mirrors the way the world is far better than the ways we’ve looked at it in the past.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it’s so true. That really leads into, I think, one of the areas that’s the heart of the book is flexors. I love how he introduced an F. Scott Fitzgerald quote, which you would don’t have to think of him as one of the leading authorities on leadership, but maybe he was. You have this quote, which I’ll read. “The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless, yet be determined to make them otherwise.” Just talk about flexors in general and then we’ll get into big picture flexors and that every day. Talk about why flexes are so important in your whole leadership philosophy and why this is, I think, arguably a breakthrough in leadership thinking.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, I appreciate that. Those are very kind words. Let me say it this way that we try, I said earlier that one of the things that this book challenges us to think differently and actually challenges to think harder. Here’s the underlying thing, and it goes with the F. Scott Fitzgerald quote, which I love. That is that we tend to want to think about the world as either or. Direct, indirect, black, white, win, lose. There are certainly some things in the world like that, but most of the world is not like a game of checkers or even a game of chess where it’s win or lose, a win, a loss, a black, a white, either, or, zero, sum. Much of the world isn’t that way at all. It’s really both and. The idea of being able to hold those two ideas in our mind together is to say that both can be true.
Just like we said, both being consistent and being flexible can be true. The world is far more shade of gray, shades of gray than it is black and white, and yet it’s simpler to think either or. Our brains are built around pattern recognition, which looks for yes or no, right or wrong. Flexible leadership challenge, the idea, underneath, flexible leadership is to challenge ourselves to think both and so that we have the chance to hold these two things in our mind at the same time and say, “This can be true and this can be true too, and which is more helpful to us right now. Just like we were talking about direct and indirect? Which one is more helpful to you, Pete, right now?” Intention, context, flexor.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, and I think that is profound in so many ways. When you’re coming back from crucibles, it’s easy to see things that black and white, was this the worst day that ever happened to me? Yes. Was it terrible? Yes. Are there ways that we can learn from this experience and bounce back? Was there blessing and gifts, Mr. Crucible? Yes. Were those terrible people that did something to me? Was that awful? Yes. Are there lessons? I think in my own life, which I think we spoke a bit about on your podcast growing up in this very large family media business, when I did my couple billion dollar takeover months after graduating from Harvard Business School, was I an idiot in a lot of ways? Yes. Should I have assumed that other Fannie members would’ve stayed in a Fannie business controlled by a 26-year-old? Was that a stupid assumption? Yes.
On the other hand, were there factors leading up to it with division that goes back many decades, my father having died, other Fannie members showing him out as chairman 11 years before that, colored subconsciously how I looked at life and my emotional well-being in some sense? Yes. Was it all my fault? My go-to tends to be, if there’s a problem in the world, it’s my fault. I don’t have a problem with owning my mistakes. It’s like, okay, well that’s fine, Warwick, but there’s a both-and right? There’s a paradox. Yes, I made some critically cataclysmic poor assumptions, but on the other hand, you could say I was set up to fail and there’s so much division going back decades and hearing my parents’ version of the truth, which wasn’t necessarily the same as other people’s versions, it was a both-and situation, which has actually helped me move on because it’s not as simple as it’s all my fault or it was always somebody else’s fault. By understanding the nuance, it’s actually helped me move beyond my worst day, if that makes some degree of sense. Understanding the paradox [inaudible 00:31:25]-

Kevin Eikenberry:
There’s a really important thing that you just said, and that is that it’s extremely helpful and healthy for us to recognize taking ownership, which is what you said, right? If it’s something out there, what part of this do I need to own? That is profoundly important for us to get to, and we’re far more effective as human beings and leaders if we get there or when we are there. Yet we can’t control everything, even though I can take ownership of what was mine. Yet there’s only so much in the world we have control over, right? What we do, say, think, feel, choose, we have control over, and that has influence on a lot of other stuff, but we can’t control or even influence everything. Recognizing the tension even between what we can control and what we can influence and recognizing the difference is incredibly important, incredibly empowering, and is really the only source of understanding how to be accountable is to recognize this is mine. It’s not all mine, but I have to be clear about what’s mine and then move from that place.
That’s underneath flexible leadership too. Okay. The situation is difficult. Okay. The situation is complex. Okay. The world is uncertain. What can I do as a leader given that to improve the chances we succeed moving forward? There’s no guarantee. Whatever you do, when you had that conversation with Pete, there was no guarantee it was going to work, right? But you felt like this is my best shot, improves my odds of a better result. That’s the underlying idea here. How do I flex in any one of these given ways to give me/us the best chance of success right now in this situation, in this context?

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, and be at peace with the things you can’t control. If you’re on some family farm, especially in Outback Australia, if you want to be a farmer, there’ll be drought and there’ll be floods and rarely anything in between. You might see why in the world would you want to be a farmer in Outback Australia? I mean, you’re set up to fail, but maybe that’s what you’ve done and your parents did, so okay, there’s a flood after years of drought. We have anything between, no. Okay, so what do we do? Rather than complain about what you can’t control or gosh, maybe I should have been smarter or built a few. I don’t know what more irrigation in the drought or few bores with the artesian water. Maybe I should have this that maybe, but we are where we are and let’s just move on rather than second-guessing.

Kevin Eikenberry:
I want to go back to something else you said earlier. We were talking about your experience and you mentioned, rightly so, several times, the fact that one of the positives that come out of a crucible situation are the lessons. I know having talked with Gary before, and you and I having talked before, that we value learning and we value lessons and likely most of the people listening feel the same. Yet I think there are other positives that can come out after a crucible than just lessons and learning. I don’t mean to discount them, but others say that there’s other stuff too, right? Because of this thing that happened other. I’ll just take the loss of a family member in our company this summer. Because of that, other people stepped up and took on responsibilities they didn’t have before. Our team is stronger because of it.
Because of that, some relationships on our team are even stronger than they were before. It is lessons, but it’s also, other things. You talked about when your father died, this is not the focus of this conversation, but I lost my father in 2007 and the number of amazing things that have happened in my life and for my family since then are innumerable. Many of those things that I’m speaking of right now would not have happened if my dad was alive. Now, would I trade him? Would I rather have my dad? Sure, but do I not want all these other amazing things? I want those too. I just have to say that’s life. We’ve got to look at both of those in that way. So I just wanted to go back to the good stuff that comes out of a crucible can also be opportunities. It can be freeing us up to something new. It can be a whole bunch of other stuff. Lessons, 100%, and I think more too.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I think we talk a lot about gratitude and obviously, there are others that do that. Yes, it was obviously a searing experience, but one of the benefits when I look at my kids, there were 33 down to 26, they all grew up in the US without having the whole pressure and expectations of the Fannie business. They’re all doing very well. They all have, faith is very important to me, so all have a strong faith and their work ethic is very good. You give them a task, you know it’s going to get done. They’re just are great human beings. That would’ve been much tougher in Australia being a Fairfax, which is sort of being a Rockefeller or Kennedy or a Vanderbilt. I mean it’s really tough. Everybody knows who you are and how do you find who you are, which is a journey of most young people. Who am I? What’s my place in the world? What do I believe? I tell them often I think they realize how fortunate they are not to grow up the way I did with all the expectations. That was a tremendous gift in a way to them.

Kevin Eikenberry:
You certainly weren’t thinking about that in the middle of the Crucible.

Warwick Fairfax:
No, no. I was thinking, “Gosh, what did I do? How stupid was I?” I want to touch a bit on just a couple of categories of flexors here. Big picture and every day. It’s almost like dials and I don’t know if you have favorite ones, but you’ve got so many compliance, commitment, best, [inaudible 00:37:40]-

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, that’s one of my favorites, so let’s just talk about that. Compliance versus commitment. It’s one of my favorites because I think, and so the overarching or the big picture flexors end up being the things. I had all of our team read the first seven chapters of the book before we had our whole team, who is remote, who are remote, we’re all together for our annual meetings last week. As a part of us doing the work and the launch for the book, I wanted everyone to have context for the book. We all read the first seven chapters, and one of the things one of my team members said was like, “No one can remember 19 things, the number of flexors.” I say, I really want it to be more about understanding. These are examples of not that there’s going to be a quiz at the end, and what are the 19.
Listen, Warwick, you’ve read the book since I have, so let’s not go down that path. Let’s talk about one those overarching ones, which is compliance and commitment. I’ve asked leaders this for a long time in around country and virtual rooms around the world, “Would you rather lead for compliance,” or I would say, “merely compliance or for commitment?” Nearly everyone says, “Well, I want to lead for commitment.” Awesome. Guess what? There’s a whole lot of leaders that clearly aren’t doing that, even if that’s what our desire is. Because if we were really leading for commitment and being successful, employee engagement, for example, would be way higher.
What we often end up doing is leading to, I just want them to say yes and move on. If all you really want is yes, sir, or yes ma’am, you’re leading for compliance. By the way, there are some times when that’s exactly the right answer. If we’re in a chaotic situation, in a chaotic moment, they’re looking for someone to point us in a direction. That’s what we should do. Those are not the moments for us to say, “Let’s gather and explore this and come to some consensus about this.” No, they want someone to say, “Go this direction,” and everyone says, “Okay, boss, I’m in.”

Warwick Fairfax:
For instance, you’re on the Titanic, it’s sinking, so let’s talk about it. Should it be women and children or men?

Kevin Eikenberry:
Exactly.

Warwick Fairfax:
First class, second class, back of the boat, front of the boat. Let’s just talk. We want to make clear. We get on the same page before it’s sinking, it’s sinking,

Kevin Eikenberry:
It’s sinking, and here are boats. You go here, you go here. 24 people for each boat, whatever, right, so 100%. Is there a time to lead more in a place of all you need for people to do is to comply? Yes. If we’re there all the time, is that a problem? 100%, more now than ever. I would like to hope that I’m leaning into that my team would say, “Kevin leads in a way that creates greater commitment.” I hope that that’s true every day, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t times when I just need to say, “We’ve got to make a decision here. We’re going here.”

Warwick Fairfax:
Well, and you might find 98% of your team is with you, and there might be a 2% that’s like, well, if they’re not wholly invested in the vision, maybe they need to get in another boat. On the other hand, maybe it’s like they’ve got particular skills that are so valuable that if they’re willing to comply, maybe I make the decision for them to stay, even though they’re maybe not as excited about the vision as I’d like. Okay, I can live with compliance so long as you do your job excellently. It’s not as simple as one or the other.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Let’s just take that person one step further. That may be absolutely the right answer now, but a year from now, that may not be the right answer. In other words, I would rather subtract that expertise because of what we’ll gain. That decision could be the decision, as you described, it could be absolutely right at one point and not the best choice later. We’re at the crux of this whole thing.

Gary:
We talk a lot at Beyond the Crucible about the idea of the ultimate goal of moving beyond your crucible is to lead a life of significance, which Warwick has defined as a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. As we talk about this conversation here about compliance and commitment, absolutely understand that there are times that compliance needs to be the goal. You indicated, Kevin, that if you asked your team, you hope they would say that you tend to default more to commitment.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Hope so.

Gary:
It seems to me that commitment, if you lead with that commitment foot, that is going to help you get to a life of significance, right? A life on purpose dedicated to serving.

Kevin Eikenberry:
I think 100%, right? Let’s go back to what we said earlier about what are the roots and the roots are purpose. Purpose, values, principles. I also, think it’s pretty safe to say that if you ask my team, what is our purpose here at the Kevin Eikenberry Group that they could tell you that in one way or another, they’re going to say, “It’s about helping as many leaders as we can make as big a positive difference as we can to make the world a better place.” Now, we say it sometimes slightly differently. That’s what it is. They all know that too. If we are all bought into that, then we got a lot better shot. Then I have a lot better shot of, and we have a lot better shot of leading a life and running a business that creates significance.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, well said. One of the flexors, at least as a person of faith, I found very interesting. You don’t often see this in a management book or leadership book, truth versus grace. I mean, that’s like I think I’ve never seen that in any, and somebody for years being an elder in a Evangelical church, that is something that I think about a lot, that paradigm. Truth is important, but so is grace, to say, “Hey, you messed up.” There’s a paradigm that both are important and in a business setting, yeah, there’s a right way to do things in terms of operationally. Then there’s, okay, you messed up. You’ve got to give somebody some grace. There’s the rule book approach. If you make one mistake one time, almost Old Testament like, you’re out of here. There’s the ultra grace approach, which is so long as you have good intentions, it doesn’t really matter if you get anything done, it’s all grace. I mean, I love that paradigm. That’s not a normal management flexor to talk about truth versus grace.

Kevin Eikenberry:
I’m going to take that as a compliment.

Warwick Fairfax:
You should. I think it is good. People, even in a normal business setting, they should understand both, it is not either or, it’s truth and grace and there’s paradigm depending on the situation.

Kevin Eikenberry:
It’s absolutely both. Let’s just for a second, and I don’t know if Marlene will ever listen to this podcast now that I’m talking about her daughter, did I coach Marlene differently in the days and weeks and months after that event? I sure hope so, right? Different in July than in May. I sure hope so. It’s not one or the other. It’s both. It’s and, so back to what we said earlier, it’s both and, how do we balance them? How do we, I a little bit more in truth versus grace. If people don’t ever think about that, then they don’t feel any tension. They’re just at one end of that or the other. As we said from the beginning with any of the flexors being at the ends of this flexor are rarely the response that will get you the best long-term results.
Once we recognize a flexor or even the idea that there are flexors, the way I responded to your thing about the story with Pete is to say, “Oh, there’s a flexor there, so how can we think about it in that way?” I’ve got 19 in the book, but what I’m really trying to do is give you a new way to think about the way we respond in a given context. Once we recognize that truth and grace are at play, we have a chance to consider the tension between them. If we’ve never thought about it, there’s no tension because we haven’t considered it.

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Life is about tensions and paradoxes. There’s a couple more things as we round out our discussion. I love when you talk about identity and basically your identity shouldn’t be wrapped up in being in a certain style of leader. For me, it could be I’m a diplomat. There are others that are more of the take charge, take no prisoners. That’s who I am. I’m a sort of Jack Welch kind of leader. It’s not right or wrong, but just realizing your identity shouldn’t be in a style of leadership. It should be how do I get the job done? How do I stay true, which you talk about later about my purpose, my principles, my values, but my identity should not be in a style of leadership.” Hey, I’m the servant leadership guy. I’m the take no prisoners guy. I’m like the general commander type,” so that’s so important.

Kevin Eikenberry:
I’m a leader and that means that I’m trying to reach, another flexor for you, reach valuable outcomes with and through others. Both of those are my job, outcomes and others. The minute that we label ourselves, we limit ourselves, right? Because now we say, “This is where I’m supposed to be or this is what I am, and so that I don’t even consider anything else.” People say, “Well, I’m a truth teller.” Well, if I’m a truth teller, then maybe I’m not thinking about grace very often.

Warwick Fairfax:
It’s such a good point. I love, as you say towards the end, what doesn’t flex your purpose, your principles, your values. There are some leaders that can be like, “I will tell you anything you want to hear. This is what I believe. Now, I don’t believe it, but it will help move the organization forward, at least in the short run.” Eventually people find you out and they get incredibly mad. “You lied to me about who you were. You shared some heartwarming story about growing up that never happened.” It was a great story, but it was a lie or an exaggeration. I talk about how you can flex your leadership style. You can do a whole bunch of flexors, compliance versus commitment, but you start flexing your purpose, your principles and values, A, it’s wrong, and B, you will fail with 100%, at least in my perspective, 100% certainty. Talk about why you don’t flex those A, because it’s wrong, but B, because it’s also dumb to try and flex those things.

Kevin Eikenberry:
I couldn’t say any better than that, right? If we go back to the tree, if the tree’s not rooted, there’s not even a tree. You’re not a tumbleweed. Right?

Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly, so well said. Really the last thing I think you say in the book, one of the last things is you talk about how the world needs leaders and it’s easy to think of what can I do? You use the metaphor of an acorn. Talk about how just that acorn philosophy, if you will, with leadership, ’cause we all can think of what difference can I make? I’m just one person. Talk about why we need to think of ourselves more as acorns.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, when you look at an acorn, you can say, okay, that’s a seed that would plant an oak tree. One acorn, one tree. If the tree takes root and the tree grows, what are you going to get? A bunch more acorns. I often say that leadership is the highest leverage point in an organization, because we have the chance to have the greatest impact through what we do and choose, don’t do and don’t choose, say and don’t say and all those things. If we realize that if you ask yourself how many trees are in the acorn, it’s in an infinite number of oak trees inside of that acorn. We have to plant our acorn in the soil. We can’t leave it sitting on the concrete.
You could listen to this whole conversation and say, “This is really good stuff, but I can’t do that.” It’s like putting your acorn on the concrete. Nothing’s going to happen. Something’s only going to happen if you take action. That’s my ultimate hope for me in this book is that people will say, “There’s something here that I can see the world differently. I can choose some new behaviors even if they’re uncomfortable, even if they’re not natural, even if they’re not what I thought I was supposed to do or be.” When we do those things, when we take those actions, when we connect intention to action, magic can happen.

Warwick Fairfax:
Today might be somebody’s worst day, they might feel it’s hopeless. How can I get beyond what this day to have some life-fulfilling purpose, life of significance as we talk about a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Talk about how some of the key principles in this book, Flexible Leadership, can get a person, get a leader beyond their worst day and really empower them to be that acorn, to be a leader that helps others. What are some of the key philosophies would help that person who maybe today is their worst day, be the person, the leader that can really help a whole bunch of other people?

Kevin Eikenberry:
I’m just going to say one thing. I’m going to speak to you as if it is a rough, hard day. As leaders, that’s often true. The first part of the flexible leadership model is intention. What I would say, if you’re having a hard day, if you’re not sure if you can see beyond this, you’re not sure leadership’s what you were cut out for, you’re not sure why you’re doing this. Take a breath, take an hour, sleep on it. There’s power in increasing response time. When we increase response time and reflect, then we can move forward with intention. When you hook that together with the realization, with the perspective that we talked about earlier, that bad things have silver linings, take the breath, take the moment, and know that you can build your confidence slowly and move in that direction.

Gary:
I am going to show my flexible leadership as the kind of the traffic cop of these episodes to say, this is a great time to end our conversation with Kevin Eikenberry.
Warwick, we just finished your interview, our interview with Kevin Eikenberry, the author of a new book called Flexible Leadership, and it was a different kind of episode for us in the sense that it wasn’t about a personal crucible he’s been through. It wasn’t all about his perspective on crucibles, but there was a lot of information in the discussion that can be applied to any of our listeners and viewers who have gone through crucibles. What was your takeaway, your number one takeaway from our time with Kevin?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it’s a great question, Gary. I would say that life and leadership is about paradoxes, about both and, and contrast. One of the things he spoke about that your worst day is indeed your worst day, irrespective of the kind of crucible that you’ve been through, is a horrific, painful circumstance that likely, in some sense, might last your whole life. You might find a way to get beyond it, but the scars will likely remain. You might be triggered from time to time depending on what happens. Yes, it is your worst day. On the other hand, as many of our guests have said, blessing has come from their crucible. They’re even thankful in some ways. How can it be your worst day, something you would never wish on another human being, but also be something that you are grateful for and there’s a blessing?
Well, life is about paradoxes. Life is really one or the other. It’s both and, so whether it’s in life or leadership, we need to be less about the extremes, but realize life can be both and. One of the other metaphors that Kevin used was about a tree or a branch. I mean, it’s pliant, it can move, but yet it’s also firmly grounded. Really, this was a discussion about paradox and certainly, I would say what is the chief paradox when you think of Beyond the Crucible? It’s the fact that your worst day is incredibly painful. It forever changed your life, but yet there may be a blessing or even some gratitude that comes out of your worst day. That is, I’d say, maybe the biggest paradox in what we talk about at Beyond the Crucible.

Gary:
One of the things that he talked about, and I’d never really expressed it in this way. We talk a lot have since the beginning of the podcast, the beginning of Beyond The Crucible, when it was still Crucible Leadership, we’ve talked about you can learn lessons from your crucible and the importance of learning lessons from your crucible, but he added in explicitly it’s not just learning lessons, it’s also a crucible can create new experiences for you to pursue. We certainly had guests who’ve talked about that, we’ve talked about that, talked around that, gotten to that. I’ve never heard it expressed from us that way. Your crucible can give you experiences that you wouldn’t have otherwise had if it wasn’t for the crucible. What’s your reaction to that?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I think in my own story, I had several experiences that I had my version of truth about what my parents thought, how the company was being run and not being run well and strayed from the values and the vision of the founder. Then there was another truth by some other Fannie members that thought that things were going fine. It’s easy to think that your truth is truth, but that experience taught me you see truth, I’m not really talking about absolute truth, but in terms of a version of events, you see it through your lens, but there are other lenses. That experience has really has changed the way I look at leadership as well as at life. Certainly, that experience was very painful that I went through, but it taught me what’s important, which is not so much success but significance. It taught me about the value of people and just how painful it was to me.
It gave me, I think, a degree of empathy for other people’s experiences and other people’s stories. I wouldn’t be who I am now without those experiences. I would say everybody we’ve ever had on the podcast, you could say it’s not just the crucible, but the experiences that they went through has made them a different person. You can use those experiences as lessons to help you be a better person, help you have a calling that you never would have otherwise. Yeah, we’re shaped by our genetics, but we’re also shaped by the sum total of our experiences, both are true for the paradox.

Gary:
Right, and one of the things in the book that really sort of caught your attention was his talk about flexors. The yin and yang of some things. The one that he pulled out that was the most meaningful to him was between compliance and commitment. The tensions between that and how do you deal with that? He talked about how when you lean into commitment, when that’s your first foot forward. Maybe, that is the path to a life of significance. Compliance, there’s time for that. You guys talked about the time for that. I’ll let you talk about what times for that that you mentioned in the show, but that was one of … I mean, why did the concept of Flexors arrest your attention so much, and how in particular does this idea of compliance and commitment speak to a crucible experience in an aftermath of a crucible experience?

Warwick Fairfax:
I think very often we tend to lead or live from a certain perspective. “Hey, I’m a servant leader. I’m a go-to, get it done. Maybe military-type of leader. I’m a consensus builder.” We have our favorite style. It’s almost like a favorite shirt or favorite pair of shoes, and that’s great, but in life, you need to be flexible, especially coming back from a crucible. I mean, things are got to be very challenging, and you need to be flexible about how you live and lead personally and professionally.
Even one of the flexors he talked about later was truth and grace, which from a faith-based perspective I’m very familiar with. More broadly, you could say, “Okay, you need to perform and if you don’t buckle up, you’re out of here.” That can be appropriate. On the other hand, there can be times when grace is important. Maybe there things going on in somebody’s life. Truth and grace, yeah, they’re both important, but what do you use? It really depends on the situation. Obviously, for me, I tend to lean towards grace and forgiveness, but truth is important too. When he mentioned compliance versus commitment, yes, you want your whole team to be committed to the vision you have that in our world, we want people to lead lives of significance, lives on purpose, dedicated to serving others. Commitment’s important, but at the end of the day, things have got to get done.

Gary:
Yeah. Well, and I’m going to demonstrate it right now. We didn’t get time at the end of the podcast. It’s in the show notes of the podcast, but Kevin has a free gift for everyone at kevineikenberry.com/gift. Go to the internet, grab that. It’s a gift that’s related to his book on flexible leadership. Folks, if you’ve enjoyed this conversation and I’ve enjoyed it, so I hope you have too. A couple of things we’d like to ask you to do work and one, if you’re listening on your favorite podcast app, we would ask you to subscribe to the show. That way you don’t miss any episodes. Life gets busy, and you can make sure they just show up every week on that podcast app.
If you’re watching us on YouTube, we ask you to leave us a comment, what did you think about this episode? How have you needed to benefit? How can you benefit from flexible leadership? Leave a comment and then subscribe to our YouTube channel. Until that next time that we are together next week, remember this, we know that crucible experiences are not easy, they’re difficult, but if you learn the lessons of them and if you seek the opportunities, as Kevin pointed out, it’s not just lessons. There’s also opportunities that come from them, and you go after those opportunities where you can end up. It’s not the end of your story, it’s the beginning of a new journey in your story, and that journey leads to a life of significance.
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