March 2025 - Beyond the Crucible by Warwick Fairfax

Applying the Actionable Truths 3: Authenticity

We take a look this week at the third actionable truth our research has shown us helps you move from trial to triumph: authenticity.

This truth is the first in the processing phase of our Beyond the Crucible Roadmap for moving past our worst day toward new opportunity. This phase, we discuss, is marked by the need to overcome fear and commit to change — two things we can only do by leaning into who we really are, not who we want others to think we are.

“We cannot move forward,” Warwick explains, “without being our true authentic selves and pursuing our unique authentic calling.”

To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.

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Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible. You got to make a decision. Am I going to lead the fake life or the real life, the false life or the true life? It's a fundamental, life-altering, life-changing decision, but you got to make that decision. Be who you are truly made to be, be you. Don't be somebody else.

Gary Schneeberger:
Now, those are words to live by, words to lean into as you navigate your way beyond your crucible. And here's another one, authenticity. That's the third actionable truth from our Beyond the Crucible roadmap that we discuss in depth this episode. What does it mean to live with authenticity? What are the roadblocks that can keep you from doing so, and how do you push past them? We discuss that and more this week, so don't touch that dial or push that button or grab that mouse.
Well, welcome friends. This is another episode of what we're calling the series within the show, and that is on the actionable truths that have been born out of what we call Beyond the Crucible roadmap. And this is just to catch you up if you've missed the first couple episodes, and we encourage you if you have to go back and watch or listen to them.
But this is our refreshed way. It's not entirely new, but it's really laser focused of helping you get from your worst day to your greatest opportunity. And that's what we've named the Beyond the Crucible roadmap. We describe it like this, and I'm going to read directly from my notes to make sure I get it right, how we help people turn their worst day into their greatest opportunity. We provide the essential actionable truths to inspire hope, enable and equip them, that's two more, to write their own life affirming story. So that's what we're talking about here is to offer you exactly that. Warwick said it many times, we're dealers in hope. We're hoping to deal a little bit today in this episode. The roadmap, just so you know, has been built from our research into how people experience crucibles and what we've learned from our experience and the experiences of all the guests we've had on this show about what it takes to turn trials into triumph.
And the most really revolutionary news, as I've said, is that while building this roadmap, we identified the actionable truths of the brand. And to pass along these life-changing truths to you, we're going to do, as I said, a series within the show. Once a month, we're going to, with the exception of when we have our summer series coming up in a few months, but once a month we're going to do an episode like this, where we're going to talk about what the actionable truths are, why they are true, and more importantly how you can be actionable about them. That's what the whole purpose of this episode and episodes like this are. So Warwick, let's set the preamble aside and get down to business here. And let me begin that by asking you this question. Level set for folks for our discussion on this third actionable truth, why actionable truths and what do we mean by that?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, Beyond the Crucible, we focus a lot on how do you get beyond your worst day and lead a life of significance. As you've mentioned, we now have this roadmap we're calling Beyond the Crucible Roadmap, how you go from trial, in other words, crucible, to triumph or a life of significance. And as we've studied really what it takes to go from trial to triumph, from crucible to life of significance, we've looked at the research we've done, we've actually looked at my book Crucible Leadership, we've found there are 10 actionable truths that we believe are catalysts that help you move you along your journey from your worst day to a more positive point in life, to living a life-affirming division.
And so when you're in that state, you're triumphing, you're living a life of significance. And these actionable truths, they've always in a sense been there, as I mentioned, they're implicit in my book, Crucible Leadership. But what we're doing now is we're making these 10 catalysts, these 10 actionable truths explicit. And so I'm looking forward over this year to really delving into what they are and why they're important to help you move from your worst day to a life of significance.

Gary Schneeberger:
Well, you've just set up the next question because why they're important, I'm going to ask you this. They're important because they help us move from setback to significance, but how do they do that? Right? Actionable truths. How do actionable truths, these actionable truths help us do that?

Warwick Fairfax:
We view these actionable truths as accelerators, even enablers, to help you move from your crucible or trial to a life of significance or triumph. And I think it can make a good case that without these actionable truths, you're going nowhere. You're stuck in the pit, you can't move beyond it. And we've already discussed crucible, self-reflection, and we're going to discuss another, I think, very interesting actionable truth here in a moment. But-

Gary Schneeberger:
Good teaser. Good teaser, Warwick. Good.

Warwick Fairfax:
Without these actionable truths, I think you're stuck. It's like having an engine without oil. You've got to have oil to make the gears work. So these actionable truths, they help you move forward. I'm not sure that it's possible to move forward without these actionable truths. So they're really critical to go from your worst day to a life of significance.

Gary Schneeberger:
And that's folks why we're going to continue to talk about these all through 2025. And we are, as Warwick indicated, we're at the next one. And the next one is interesting because it moves us into a different section of the road map as well. But in our first two discussions, you may remember if you haven't, and as I said at the outset, if you haven't seen the first two episodes, please tune in to those. We talked about where the trial begins. So that was the trial phase of the road map, and that was your crucible, and then where you begin to move beyond, quote, unquote, "your crucible" is self-reflection. Both of those came under the part of the map which we call trial.
We're now moving into a part of the map, the second part of the map, which we call processing. We're moving into processing now. So you've had the trial, you've self-reflected, and now it's time to take some action. So the third truth is what we've determined is one of the critical turning points to begin the forward motion necessary to turn your trial into triumph, and that is authenticity. I should have stopped and said, drum roll, please. Authenticity. Let's do that now. Drum roll, please. Authenticity is the third truth that we're going to discuss in this episode. Warwick, why is authenticity a critical step after a crucible to begin the journey from trial to triumph?

Warwick Fairfax:
It's funny, as I reflect on these actual truths, I'm passionate about all of them, but as we'll get into in a bit, I'm really, really passionate about authenticity. It's one of my highest values that I've sought to live my life around. So let's talk about authenticity and why it's so important. So after we've been through a crucible and we've reflected on what happened, why it happened, what are the lessons learned, what are the things we could have done differently? What can we learn from what was done to us? We're at a point where we're hopefully ready to move beyond a crucible. But a critical step to moving beyond a crucible is authenticity. We need to be our true authentic selves, and I've certainly found this, it's easy to live a life in which you hide behind a mask, you pretend to be somebody else.
But to move forward, we've got to be us. We can't just be somebody else, hide behind it. And part of that is we tend to not always want people to know who we truly are. We want to be maybe the life of the party. We just want to be liked, and so we become the person we think others want us to be, and we lose our sense of self. It's almost like we become an actor. Sometimes with the actors, you want say, who are they really? And you can lose yourself in your role. We don't want to be actors in our own lives. We want to be ourselves. And so that's one part of it. Another part of it is we need to own how we were authentically made. We need to lean into our unique gifts, skills, and passions, and we need to stop trying to please other people and pursue professions that others may want us to pursue, whether they're friends or family. It's just not really very helpful.
I mean, it can often be the case kids growing up, maybe their mom or dad is a doctor, lawyer, whatever it is, and hey, this is a good profession. And it's like, okay, I guess so. And rather than thinking, well, how was I made? What do I love to do? You tend to pick the safe option. The smart option. It's not a smart option. I'm not even sure it's a safe option. It's not a smart option to be somebody that you're not. That tends not to work. So those are really the two sides to authenticity. We need to be our authentic selves, but we also need to pursue a calling or a profession that's authentically in line with who we are. We really can't move forward from the pit without being authentically who we are and pursuing a vision that's true to who we are. You really can't move forward without authenticity in both those two facets, the being your authentic self and pursuing a profession that's authentic to who you really are.

Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. As you talk about that, it's interesting, something popped in my head. People say all the time when you're in tough straights, fake it till you make it, right? And I think what we're talking about is the exact opposite of that, right? If you don't fake it, you will make it. I think that's what this actionable truth really brings to bear on this subject is that don't fake it, don't wear a mask. Don't run from who you really are, run into who you really are.

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, Gary. I think you can also say, if you fake it, you won't make it. I'm somebody that's a pretty disciplined person by nature and have high perseverance, but if you try to be somebody that you're not, it creates a lot of dissonance within you, within your emotions, psyche, soul. It's just being somebody you are not creates a lot of anxiety and stress because at your deepest level, you know it's wrong. You know it makes no sense. And just to put on an act every day, it's just so draining. It's just stressful.

Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, it's exhausting. Yeah.

Warwick Fairfax:
To be somebody or not and be in a profession that you hate and don't feel called to, and you're thinking there's got to be something else. There's got to be something else that makes me more happy and fulfilled than this. It's just, it's drudgery. I hate my job. It's just not who I am. I guess I got to be sensible, and it's just soul crushing, soul-destroying. And so how do you move beyond your worst day when your soul feels crushed and it's draining you of energy? Rather than a catalyst or an accelerator, you've got a massive brake in which it makes it very difficult to move forward. You're trying to push a massive boulder uphill. That's not a way to move beyond a crucible. You'll tend to roll right back into the pit. The boulder will push you there, if I can mix metaphors there.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Of course you can. You're the host of the show. I am going to, as I do every episode here, I'm going to read the dictionary definition, and not just any dictionary definition, folks. This is the dictionary definition from Webster's first dictionary, what I call Webster's 1828, Noah Webster's very first dictionary. And this is how he describes, well, actually authenticity wasn't really a word used, I guess, but authentical, this is what he describes it as, "Having a genuine, original or authority in opposition to what is false, fictitious or counterfeit. Being what it purports to be. Genuine and true." So all those things, I think, are exactly what you've been talking about here. That is indeed what it takes to be authentic, to exhibit authenticity.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean, that's a really great word, authentical. I guess we could have called this accelerator, authentical.

Gary Schneeberger:
I've never heard that word before, so that's funny.

Warwick Fairfax:
I'm not even sure we use that. It'd be interesting to see if it's in the modern dictionary.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right.

Warwick Fairfax:
But yeah, to be genuine and true, not to be false. We need to be genuine and true to who we are. Not false or fake. I mean it seems so obvious when you just contemplate that dictionary definition, but yet, it is, as we'll get into in a moment, it's challenging to be yourself and to authentically perceive a calling that you feel is in line with who you are. It's challenging as we'll get into in a moment.

Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, I mean to wear the mask is to wear a mask without eye holes. You can't see where you're going, right? I mean, it really is what we're talking about when we talk about this. So there are, as I said earlier there, this is a new stage of the roadmap called processing. We're moving beyond the trial and now we're processing that trial. And there are two stages, two things that come up, two ways it manifests itself as you're processing. The first one of those work is overcoming fear. That's the first thing we have to do in processing. So I'll ask you, how does authenticity or being authentical as Webster's 1828 says, how does authenticity help us to overcome fear?

Warwick Fairfax:
It's interesting. One of the big reasons people are not authentic, they put on a mask, they don't pursue a career in line with who they truly are. They put on a mask because people fear that if they're truly who they are, if they're truly their authentic selves, what happens if people reject who we are? It's one thing if they reject the mask, but if they reject our true self, we feel seen in the sense, but we feel exposed, we feel rejected. We feel they're rejecting our soul. They're rejecting everything that makes us who we are, but we need to make a decision. We need to own our authentic selves and not shrink back from that. For me, it really comes back to my faith perspective. I believe that as humans we're uniquely made by God and his image, and we're all made differently. We're all maybe a different facet of that image.
And so from my perspective, we need to honor that and own that. I think Psalm 139 says, "We're beautifully and wonderfully made." Well, if we're made a certain way with certain personalities, a certain appearance, whatever it is, maybe even certain quirks, I think we all have those quirks, we need to say, okay, that's who I am. And if some people don't like that, oh, well. But we need to really make a decision that we're going to be our authentic selves. And we often live in fear of disappointing others, friends and family. And so that influences what professional calling we pursue. Oh, let's make the safe choice. Let's make mom, dad, and friends, teachers all happy. But when we pursue a profession that's not true to who we are, we're just miserable. We need to also make a decision that we're going to pursue a calling that's authentic to who we are, that is something that we feel passionate about, is in line with our gifting.
And yes, there is some people that may reject that saying, "That's nuts. Your mom or dad's an accountant, a doctor, they have a great business, a good clientele. How can you reject that profession?" But it really reminds me of one of the things we talk about at Beyond the Crucible all the time is having a team of fellow travelers. We need to have people around us that believe in us that like the true authentic us, and as we're trying to pursue a professional calling or a vision that's in line with who we are and what we believe, that they will cheer us. And those that don't, well maybe don't see them as much. I mean if they're family, it obviously creates more challenges. If they're friends and they keep pulling us down and wanting us to be who we're not, then maybe the level of contact maybe shouldn't be as high as it was before.
We need to be around people that believe in us, believe in who we are and the path that we're moving towards so they can really help us be our true authentic selves, and pursue a true authentic profession. And those that are naysayers, they're like brakes, they stop us moving out of the pit. So we don't need brakes. We need people who will help us accelerate moving forward. And the right fellow travelers can actually indeed do that.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And I have not told you this beforehand. I just thought about it this morning as I was preparing what we're going to talk about, and I have a real life example of this that dates back 22 years. It was 2003, and you may remember work in those days in the early 2000s, men's retreats were very big in Christian circles, and I went to a men's retreat and one of the things that was done was friends of mine, guys I knew from work and from childhood and my family, my dad, my brother, they wrote letters to me, and those letters were then presented to all the men in the retreat at some time after they broke us down a little bit, then they gave us these letters. And I'm just going to read a couple of paragraphs from what I said to all the people who wrote me a letter because it speaks to this idea that you're talking about, about being authentic to who you are and about fellow travelers affirming that authenticity.
So this is just a section of what I wrote them. "Many of the individual things you and other friends and family told me in those letters moved me mightily, which I'm not going to talk about right here and now because crying in the office is frowned on, and I can feel the tears welling up just remembering. But I can and really need to tell you how the Lord used you to minister to me through that." This is me saying this now, "See at a very basic level, at the level Jack Nicholson described to Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men, is the place you don't like to talk about at parties. I have always pretty much been ashamed of who I am. As a kid, I heard shut up a lot from my parents because I was always full of questions and conversation."
"In school, I was a bit of a class clown, and the teachers never really thought a lot of it, even if my classmates did. Through the years, I learned, I guess, that while the personality I had made my peers laugh and like being around me, those in authority over me were displeased by it. I wasn't serious enough to be good. Although that personality has mostly survived in the years since I came to Christ, so has the shame. It's intensified, in fact. So has the sense that I'm just not serious enough to be as good a Christian as this or that person. I've known and enjoyed the friendships of fun I've had in my time here at the place I worked, focused on the family, but there have always been a part of me, a growing part of me that suspected I was disappointing God for being too frivolous. That he, like my mom and dad and teachers, was displeased with me for being who I was and that this has made me so displeased with myself."
"In that place I don't like to talk about at parties that I've thought of my shame that the most a lot of you can do for me is a begrudging tolerance. You endure me." I wrote. "And then I read your letters and what jumped out at me, what really pierced my heart wasn't that you really did like me and consider me a friend, but that was nice to know, touching in its own right, but what really set my tears and sobs into overdrive was this. As I read letter after letter and began to see the pattern in what you and others wrote about, that very part of me, I've always been so ashamed of, that outgoing, fun guy personality was actually something that folks like you see as a positive. My love of helping, of being around people, which I've passed off more often than not is trying to win approval was actually something the Lord had used to bless others, far from thinking of me as too glib or flippant or not serious as a person."
"Every person after person, including many of you, recalled moments where you felt I had blessed you and others through just being who I was. And that slayed me because I understood in that moment what I'm trying so hard to still understand now that I've returned to my real life, is that God never has been ashamed of those aspects of my personality. Far from it, in fact, he made me that way." 22 years ago thinking that my authentic self wasn't good enough, and my fellow travelers affirmed that indeed it was. Miraculous.

Warwick Fairfax:
Gary, that is so powerful. There's so much to reflect on. I think it's extremely helpful to talk about this just growing up, that sense of shame. Hey, I'm the class clown, so to speak. My buddies liked it, the teachers feel like, yeah, this guy's not going nowhere. I mean class clown, he is not serious enough. He's not going to work hard. It's just like, you don't tend to think of class clowns winning the Nobel Prize or something and going somewhere. You just feel like they're funny, but yeah, probably not end up anywhere too helpful. That's the notion. And those fellow travelers saying, "Well, we like you, Gary, because of that class clown fun-loving guy. That's what we like. And you can still be funny and actually achieve things, As you have. You did then and you do now."
So I guess 20 plus years later, imagine you were writing that letter again.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right.

Warwick Fairfax:
Would it be different? And you'd be thankful, but would you still feel like, gosh, I still have this sense of shame and I'm just less than and there are other Christians that achieve more than I do? Or how would that letter differ if you were writing it today versus 20 years ago?

Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, I think part of stepping into my authentic self and being comfortable in my authentic self, because sometimes masks can feel comfortable. So being comfortable in my authentic self, I think now, I know now that I don't compare myself to others in that way. Are there times that I'm like, ooh, I probably shouldn't have cracked that joke, or I should have maybe been serious at that time. I mean, there are still moments like that, but I don't think that there's this wholesale disregard or lack of affinity or affirmation from those around me because of that.
So I have not just come to peace with my authentic self. I have come to understand my authentic self has been a positive in my life. So that's flipped. And it's the point of what we're talking about here. You have to embrace your authentic self to overcome a crucible because that's the way that you're going to go from trial to triumph. I was bouncing through trials and challenges, and I would come out on the other side, but I still had never really embraced that part of me. I lived it, I didn't hide it, but I just thought it wasn't good enough. And I think now I know from my own perspective helped by fellow travelers who wrote me these letters, which I have in that folder I was holding, that it is good enough, because that's who I was created to be.

Warwick Fairfax:
So I'm sensing that that word you use, which is a very strong word, that I'm sure a lot of people can relate to, the word shame, would it be true to say that that's not really part of your vocabulary anymore as you think about who you authentically are, that you're not ashamed to be Gary Schneeberger?

Gary Schneeberger:
No, not at all. I mean, are there things that I do and say ad that are just antithetical to who I am at my core that maybe brings in sadness? Yes, but that aspect of my authentic self, who I am authentically does not bring me shame. It brings me actually comfort. It brings me hope. It brings me the ability to endure crucibles. So I don't know that some of the crucibles since then in the last 22 years could have been overcome if I still thought that I was a mess. I don't think I'm a mess in that way anymore.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I mean that's a path that we should never be ashamed of who we are, and I'll get into more my story later, but in some ways I can relate to what you're saying as we'll get into it, but we should never be ashamed to be authentically who we are. But really that's the point of this question is we tend to fear being our authentic selves because if we are, people won't like us or people will be ashamed to be with us or almost like in the Bible, like a leper, unclean, go away, live on the edge of town, don't be where everybody is, just go and be separate so that we don't have to see you. That's that abiding sense of shame that we can have. But that's where we just need to realize that we're perfectly made by God from my perspective and not be ashamed of who we are.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right. So thank you for indulging me as I take up a whole lot of time of the episode in talking about that, but it just me this morning and I have all these letters nearby in my files, and I was like, that is exactly what we're going to talk about. And here's exactly what else we're going to talk about, folks. There's two parts to this processing, and the second part of that processing work is committing to change. Again, talk a bit about being aware of but being resistant to change. Why is committing to change so important here?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, and Gary, committing to change is tough. Change is tough, and it's typically scary. Ironically, I'm somebody that's lived in a bunch of different places, Australia, where I'm from, the UK, New York, Chicago, Boston, a bunch of different places, partly education, and I'm somebody that actually does not like change even though I've done a lot of different things. So I certainly get the fact that change is tough and it's typically scary. So especially when we want to try to be our true authentic selves and lead our authentic calling, but really we have to put a line in the sand and make a commitment to change. We've got to move beyond our crucible, and we're not going to do that unless we're true to who we are and authentic to the calling in our life. It's really one of the most critical and fundamental decisions we're going to make in life.
So you might be scared, you might be thinking, gosh, are people going to like me if I'm my true authentic self and pull down the mask? And if I lead a life or a profession that's in line with who I authentically am made to be and my passions and gifting, is that going to work? There's a lot of fear, but you've just got to make a commitment. As we often say, one step at a time. The first step is often the biggest, but we've got to make a commitment. I am going to be who I am and pursue a calling that I feel led to, and hopefully you'll have some fellow travelers to encourage you, but you got to make a decision. Am I going to lead the fake life or the real life, the false life or the true life? It's a fundamental life altering, life changing decision, but you got to make that decision. Be who you are truly made to be, be you. Don't be somebody else.
I think some comedian or some wise person has said, "Everybody else is already taken, so why not be me?" Or something to that effect, which I think is, I forget who it was, but it's a very profound statement. There's a whole bunch of other people. Let them be them. Good for them. But you be you. You got to make that commitment. That's really a critical first step in being authentic. Just make that commitment that you got to be you.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And we've reached now folks, my favorite part of these shows, and I will put on my authentic identity as class clown to say, we're going to examine patient zero of Beyond the Crucible, and that's our host, Mr. Warwick Fairfax, because Warwick's story and the things he went through from trial to triumph, before we ever called them actionable truths, before we ever knew that we could think of what actionable truths might be, Warwick lived these things out as he moved from his trial to his triumph. So let me ask you this, Warwick, how did authenticity help you truly begin to move beyond your crucible?

Warwick Fairfax:
Authenticity is one of my highest values, but it was a challenge. In some ways, ironically, I could relate to what you're saying, Gary, about shame. I don't know if I would've used that word, but as listeners know, I grew up in a very large a 150-year-old family media business. And in Australia there's a strong egalitarian philosophy, which is obviously good in many ways, but there's a thing called the tall poppy syndrome, which basically means that if you're successful in anything other than sports, and Australia is a sports mad country, if you are good in business, the arts, any profession you can think of, it's like, ah, so you think you're better than us. It's like if you're successful. And so ironically, I say ironically because I felt this, and it's ironic because I went to a private boys school in Sydney where I grew up, and the school fees were high, if not very high.
So the kids in that school, the boys in that school, they were like sons of stockbrokers and doctors and lawyers, they were not impoverished, but yet they would say, "Well, Warwick, you think you're better than us, don't you?" And anybody that knows me now or back then, I have my issues, but that was never one. I was never a kid that run around boasting. I would be more just hiding and saying nothing. There's no truth to that allegation. And so I would just be mortified. "No, I don't think so." They'd say, "How many cars did your dad have and how much money?" My dad did have a few cars, one of which was actually an Aston Martin that was almost identical to the one that James Bond drove in Goldfinger. So-

Gary Schneeberger:
Did it have missiles that popped out when he pushed the button?

Warwick Fairfax:
Not that I know of.

Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, okay. Good. Good, good, good.

Warwick Fairfax:
There might've been one time when my dad said, "Don't touch that button."

Gary Schneeberger:
That's awesome.

Warwick Fairfax:
I don't know why he said that. I have no idea.

Gary Schneeberger:
That's awesome. That's awesome.

Warwick Fairfax:
Good job I didn't. But yeah, there was just this sense of, I don't know, I don't think I would've used the word shame, but maybe it would be appropriate if, I didn't want to be seen as somebody that was different than other people. And just there was this sense of huge expectations that I'd have to fill in terms of one day being in a leading position within the family company. I was not particularly athletic growing up. I wasn't terrible, but I was the last one picked for, I guess you call it tag here, we call it tip in Australia, whatever the game was. So there was a lot of reasons over the years in which I felt like, gee, I'm not as athletic as the next guy, and I'm not a handyman because when you grew up the way I grew up, you don't have to fix the projects yourself. You'd have people that do that for you, obviously.
Even if that wasn't the case, I still wouldn't have been good. I'm not like a crafty guy with the wood shop, and it's just not what I enjoy. So there's plenty of things that I would've thought, oh, I just... I just wouldn't have felt great about who I was in that sense, despite the fact that, yeah, I went to Oxford, Harvard Business School, and I suppose that helped a bit, but it's easy to look at the things you don't have and wish you were that. So I guess back to authenticity, one of the reasons authenticity is one of my highest values is, as I say in my book, I, in a sense, grew up in the world of the authentic. My parents were prominent folks given that my dad for most of my growing up was chairman of John Fairfax Limited, this iconic media company that had newspapers, magazines, newsprint, we had all these radio stations, and had the equivalent in Australia of the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal.
So my parents would have parties with... My mother was pretty social, so she loved organizing these things. They'd have parties with ambassadors, prime ministers, politicians, leading business figures, and occasionally even visiting folks from Hollywood. And I guess because my parents saw me as the next generation, that even at a young age, 10, 12 or what have you, I'd be invited to attend these parties. They wanted me to be around and just see what that world was like and just be ready for my future. And so often people would just try and impress each other with how brilliant they were, the deals they'd done, the important people they knew in Europe or Hollywood or wherever, and it was just so fake. Ever since, I've just had no desire to be around people that want to boast like that. I wanted to be around real people, so I don't really hang out in those circles. I didn't voluntarily hang out in those circles when I was growing up, but I don't choose to.
So I really became allergic to the world of the inauthentic. But what's interesting is it's not like I was authentic. Okay, so it isn't that you have to be inauthentic or authentic. Well, I guess I found a third way, which is I put on a mask. And so it's not like I pretended to be somebody else, it's just nobody knew what I was thinking. In fact, after my $2.25 billion takeover the family company, which I think as people would know, did not work out, during those takeover years, when I was in control of this massive 4,000 person company, there was an article written in an Australian magazine, and I was in fact on the front cover and the title of the article, and again, it was on the front cover, was the Man Behind the Mask and had this cartoon of me with this mask. And what this article was saying is that people found me very difficult to know.
In fact, some of my advisors at the time said, "Warwick's the hardest person I've ever got to know. He's inscrutable." So after my crucible of the bankruptcy of this 150 year old family media company happened, and it happened under my watch, I had a lot to think about. I moved to the US because that's where my wife is from, and we've lived here since the early nineties. And I think over time I gradually pulled down the mask. Of course it was easier because in the US nobody knew who I was. So it was easy to be me and be a little less paranoid about opening my mouth on not so much opinions, but just being me. It just gradually happened over time. The second part is over time, I gradually pursued a calling that was authentic to me. I mean, it wasn't easy, because who was I? I knew I wasn't this corporate raider, CEO big business guy, but who was I?
I probably realized that I was more like my father than I was willing to admit. He was a, would've been a better philosophy professor, was very reflective. I don't know that I've ever had a desire to be a philosophy professor, but that reflective aspect of his nature, I think that was there. And so really what I am is a reflective advisor, but I didn't quite realize that through most of the '90s. So there were several steps on the journey. I worked in finance and marketing strategy for an aviation services company in Maryland where we live. And one of the key steps for me in finding out who I authentically was, was I went to a woman that did mid-career executive coaching and she said, "Warwick, you have a great profile to be an executive coach." So I've become a certified International Coach Federation executive coach. But when she said that, I felt like it made sense.
And I remember, I think it was 2003, I went to my first International Coach Federation conference in Denver, and I felt like these are my people. They were very curious, non-judgemental. They wanted to know who I was and I wanted to know who they were. And that was maybe the turning point I would say, in me finding my true authentic self. I didn't quite realize it at the time. In fact, we've talked earlier about making a commitment to change. One of the key turning points in my life, I remember we had Michael Lindsay, he's the president of Taylor University where my kids went. He wrote a book Hinge Moments, and that was a hinge moment for me. It wasn't a crucible, but I made a critical decision.
And that really came, I just felt the still small voice of God while I was working in the aviation services company, and I felt like God telling me, "Warwick, are playing small. You're not living in light of who I made you to be." It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with working in finance and marketing strategy for an aviation services company, but there was a lot more that I could give, and I wasn't doing that out of maybe fear or ignorance or what have you. And so when you feel like God telling you, you are playing small, you're not being who I designed you to be, it's like, wow, okay. That was a wake-up call, and I made that commitment, okay, I'm not going to apologize for being me. I don't think anybody should apologize for being them. And so the first key step was becoming an executive coach.
And after that, one thing after another kept moving forward because I was curious and asking good questions and doing some executive coaching, I was invited to be on team nonprofit boards, the elder board of my church, a non-denominational evangelical church in Maryland where we still go, and my kids' Christian school. After a talk in church as some illustration, I decided to write a book about what happened growing up, my thoughts on leadership and life. And that led to a brand that we called at the time Crucible Leadership that we now call Beyond the Crucible and led to this podcast.
But that key hinge moment, that key turning point was that moment where I felt like God's saying, "You're playing small, you're not being authentic to who you truly are." And that executive coach that said, "You have a great profile to be an executive coach." I don't do as much executive coaching anymore, but it was a key turning point, I didn't realize at the time, that led me to where I am now. So this wasn't an easy journey, but I just made that decision that I'm going to be my true, authentic self. I'm going to pursue an authentic calling that's true to who I am. It's interesting, this family media business was founded by my great-great-grandfather, John Fairfax. It was his true authentic calling, but it was not my true authentic calling.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right.

Warwick Fairfax:
Really, as we're dialoguing about shame and all of that, I think like you, I'm in a much better position. I am not as athletic as some people, but I have reasonable hand-eye coordination. I'm not as bad as I might think I am. I play tennis with my kids. Yeah, I don't enjoy building decks. So what?

Gary Schneeberger:
I don't either.

Warwick Fairfax:
I can assemble Ikea furniture. I'm pretty reasonably tech-savvy. I'm not terrible, but I just need directions, but just don't ask me to build a deck. And so I'm comfortable with who I am.

Gary Schneeberger:
As you were telling that story, when did you say you went to the International Coach Federation conference?

Warwick Fairfax:
I think that was 2003.

Gary Schneeberger:
You know what's interesting about that work? That's exactly the date of that letter I read, was in 2003.

Warwick Fairfax:
Wow.

Gary Schneeberger:
So we both found the truth of our authenticity at roughly the same time. That's amazing.

Warwick Fairfax:
So in the word of, again, Michael Lindsay's book, just as that was a hinge moment for me because it probably wasn't necessarily a crucible, was that a hinge moment for you as a turning point?

Gary Schneeberger:
For sure.

Warwick Fairfax:
Those letters in 2003?

Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. Yeah, it was I'm not all these bad things I thought I was. It was absolutely a hinge moment. So wow, how amazing. I feel like just dropping the anchor on this one and ending it, but we can't do that yet, folks, because I want to ask you, Warwick, like I do at the end of every one of these episodes. What's your one takeaway for folks who've listened and watched us talk about the actionable truth of authenticity? What's the one takeaway you'd like them to walk away with from this conversation?

Warwick Fairfax:
If you want to bounce back from your crucible, if you want to get out of the pit, if you want to move beyond your crucible, you have to be your true, authentic self. Don't be ashamed of who you are. Don't listen to the boys and girls at school. Mean boys, mean girls, kids can be really brutal. And it's worse today with social media, which we didn't have when we were growing up, but you've got to put a stake in the ground. Make a commitment to be who you are, don't be afraid of being your true, authentic self, and don't be afraid of pursuing a calling that's authentic to who you are, and that's unique to who you are. I think God made us all uniquely with our own unique set of qualities, strengths, things we might think are weaknesses or just things maybe you're not as good at as some with their own quirks that some may find charming, some may find annoying, we might find annoying, but it's just who we are. Quirks and all.
Just accept, do more than accept. It's like if we're made this way by God or however we think it works, then be true to who you are and pursue a calling that's unique to you. And if you don't do this and try to be somebody else and try to pursue a calling that's not in line with your gifting and passion, I think rather than moving beyond your crucibles, you'll lead the paraphrase in a different way, it's a wonderful life, you will lead a crucible life. You'll be wanting to jump off the bridge, the snowy bridge every day. That'll be a normal day because you will live a crucible life. It'll be one crucible after another.
Life is tough enough, but if you follow a calling that's not unique to you, that's not authentic to you, if you try to be somebody else and not your true, authentic self, you'll create crucibles. Rather than having to just endure the ones that come at you, you'll be creating them. I mean, why live a life journey from crucible to crucible, and mistake to mistake, and then creating crucibles? It makes no sense. Don't do it. Be your true, authentic self. Live a calling that's authentically you, and you'll have a much greater chance of living a life of significance, going from trial to triumph, from your worst day to a life of significance. Living an authentic life is an accelerant, is an accelerator. Try to be somebody else, that's the opposite. It's a massive brake. It's a boulder that will tend to stop you getting out of the pit and one crucible after another will tend to whack you right back in the pit. You're creating pit after pit, it makes no sense. So do yourself a favor, be you, be your true, authentic self and pursue an authentic calling that's unique to you.

Gary Schneeberger:
And your authentic calling is as an airplane pilot because you've just landed the plane in our conversation, Warwick. Bravo. Another really great, great discussion, folks. This is just the third actionable truth we'll be discussing in depth this year. Each month we'll take a look at another one and how it's connected to the previous one that builds out our Beyond the Crucible roadmap. And the next time we will be discussing, drum roll please, Scott, faith. That's what we're going to be talking about, and you want to stay tuned for that, folks, because we have a definition of faith that's a little bit different than you might expect. So stay tuned. That's coming up. So until next time that we are together, please remember this. We want you to believe these truths, but we also want you even more to act on them. That's why they're actionable truths, because that's what's going to help you along the roadmap from trial to triumph, and we will see you next week.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment, unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit Beyondthecrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.

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His childhood was something out of a mafia movie — boy attracted to what he saw as the glamour of the flashy toughs in his working-class New York City neighborhood. And Robert Borelli’s story was not headed for a happy ending.

What began as running errands for the mobsters he idolized turned into committing crimes that escalated in their violence and an addiction to drugs that robbed him of the respect he worked so hard to get.

But Borelli’s story did a sharp 180-degree turn to redemption when a question from his young daughter while he was in prison led to his getting clean from drugs and getting a fresh start through what he calls a miracle of God.

Today, he talks to at-risk youth about avoiding his early path and embracing his life-saving one.

To learn more about Robert Borelli, visit www.www.robertborelli.com

To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.

Robert Borelli:
I was calling my daughter a little bit, and this one time I call her, she's crying. And her name is Brianna, and I said, "Brianna, why are you crying?" She said, "Because you won't come and see me." And those words, for some reason, if I could have ran and got a drink or a drug or anything to numb the feeling that happened, my heart just shattered in pieces, man, and I was crying. And I didn't want the inmates to see me so I slammed the phone down and ran back to my cell.

Gary Schneeberger:
That harrowing story is just one of the crucibles Robert Borelli, our guest this week, discusses about his life in the mob, a life filled with crime, and prison, and a crippling addiction to drugs. But the moment he just described was also the moment where he broke free from his crucible and started to live his beyond. The healing he's experienced, he tells us, is nothing short of a miracle.

Warwick Fairfax:
So, Robert, it is so good to have you on our podcast. I love just reading a bit about your story, which is, it's a remarkable story. It's a story of tragedy, but it's a story, ultimately, of redemption. As you put it, it's a story of second chances and it's never too late. So for folks that may not know your story or background, just help us understand where you grew up and what was the backstory that really ultimately led to your crucible, but where did you grow up and what was life like for a young Robert growing up?

Robert Borelli:
It was tough. I come from a pretty tough neighborhood. I didn't know until later on, as I got a little bit older, it was basically run by the Gambino Crime Family. La Cosa Nostra had their hand in my neighborhood, and it goes back for a long time of many of the old gangsters from Murder Incorporated. Their families were still in the neighborhood, even though those guys are no longer with us. So it was a pretty tough neighborhood.
I look at my life and I could see three, I guess, principles of my life, if you want to say it that way. My mom and dad worked really hard. They were legitimate people, worked really hard. We come from a pretty poor neighborhood. Mostly, arguments in my home would've been about finances, not having enough money maybe for the kids' clothes or just struggles that they had, which a lot of families in that neighborhood did have. And at an early age, it's not like I want to be like my mom and dad because I didn't want to have those struggles growing up, so I was looking at life a little bit different.
Then as I got a little bit older, some of the older gentlemen, the other guys from the neighborhood, were drafted into the Vietnam War and they were just coming back and they were pretty messed up. Not all of them, but some of them from my neighborhood were either strung out on drugs or alcohol and I didn't want to be like them growing up. And then you had the wise guys down the block. Now I didn't know they were wise guys at the time, I just know there was bunch of guys that hung out at the social club. They were dressed nice. They had money in their pocket. They had cars which, in my neighborhood, was a rarity, not everybody was able to afford a car. So I gravitated to that lifestyle.
But also, my neighborhood was gang-related. We had gangs. Every kind of little intersection you went to, there was a different gang, either Eastern Parkway, F&R, coming from Fulton Rock so we called it F&R. And there was always gang fights and stuff like that. And I just happened to be one of the kids that was very small in stature and didn't want to get picked on a lot by the other kids. So I would be the wild one, you would say, of the crew that we had there. And the guys down the blocks started noticing that about me and they would take me into the club and I'd hang out with them a little bit, shoot pool and stuff like that. And then after that, I was just infatuated. Most kids probably want to be a fireman or something like that, I just really just wanted to be a gangster.

Warwick Fairfax:
So just to give folks context, for understand, this is in Brooklyn, New York in late '50s, '60s, '70s. It was probably different back then, I imagine, than it is today. But I guess people have to understand where you were, who you were growing up in this family with financial challenges, and the people that looked like they'd made it, were going places, were people involved in the mob. They dressed nice. They had nice cars. They had money. And so as a young kid, you're thinking, "I don't want to be poverty-stricken like my parents. I love mom and dad, but I want to make something of myself. Where are my role models for making something of myself? The people who dress nice, have money and nice cars." I mean, putting yourself in your shoes, it makes some degree of sense of why a young Robert would gravitate there.

Robert Borelli:
And you can see some of that is still being waved around today. Guys that are in poor neighborhoods and drug dealers or anybody that's involved in, you see that they have nice cars, money in their pocket. It's attracting, let's put it that way. You see a mob story, you're more attracted to the mob story than the Jesus Christ story, to be honest with you. And I'm not downplaying my savior, not at all, but I'm saying, it's just something that people are fascinated with that lifestyle. So it's understandable even today how gangs get involved and how young kids looking for a better life and they gravitate towards those people that...
Look, the only problem is they don't tell you. See, when somebody in my neighborhood, one of the older guys from the club, wouldn't be around for a while, they didn't tell me where he went. Maybe if they would've told me that he was in prison or something like that, maybe I would've shied away a little bit [inaudible 00:06:22] that part to-

Warwick Fairfax:
He could be in prison or worse.

Robert Borelli:
Or worse, right.

Warwick Fairfax:
They may not be on this earth for whatever reason.

Robert Borelli:
Yes. We had a lot of magicians in my neighborhood too. They knew how to make people disappear.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. And just tell us a bit about how you began to get involved with the mob, with the Gambino family, because what's fascinating is, obviously, your last name is Borelli, and there's a story to that which we'll get to, but your original name was Robert Engel, which doesn't sound very Italian. Is that German? I mean, I don't know, Engel?

Robert Borelli:
You hit it on the head, Germans.

Warwick Fairfax:
So how does a kid of a German-American background, and here's the Italian Gambino family, I mean... So it's not like, culturally, hey, you're Italian, therefore they might think, of course, you not need to be in the mob, which obviously makes no sense, but it might make sense from their perspective. How did you get involved? Not of that background, you're in the neighborhood, you were attracted to them, but yet, they kind of started including you, inviting you in. How did all that happen?

Robert Borelli:
Well, my mom was Italian. And my mom's family was pretty known in the neighborhood. Not as tough guys, but in the neighborhood, everybody knew everybody. So my mom's family grew up in that neighborhood, so they knew my mom, they knew her brothers and sisters and stuff like that. So a lot of them knew my family in that sense.
And believe it or not, a lot of people, even back then, didn't understand that I wasn't Italian. But I walked it, I acted it. I grew up more on my mom's side of the family. Didn't really know too much about my dad's side of the family. He was from Yonkers. We never really went there. And if we did, I don't remember much of it. So they really did that, looked at me as the Italian kid even though I had a German father.
But as I started hanging out with them, they gave me little bit more things to do. They would have card games in the back and then I would serve sandwiches. And if you've seen the movie Goodfellas, or if you've seen the movie A Bronx Tale, how that little guy, the young kid is raised and stuff like that, that's kind of like how I started. Only thing is, I grew up to be a little bit more than that.

Warwick Fairfax:
So what was that progression, from hanging out with these older guys in the clubs, doing small little things that got to big things, I guess. I was looking at your video on your website. I think there was a guy, was it Nicky or somebody that was mentoring you, took you for walks in the early hours of the morning? I mean, from a faith-based perspective, we talk about discipleship. Jesus discipled his disciples. There was discipleship here too, but it was for a very different purpose. They were grooming you. And it might've seemed like, "Gosh, I have family here, they really care about me," but yet, it was for a much darker purpose. Just talk about that whole discipling, if you will, and how you went from just as a kid hanging out in the clubs, doing little misdeeds, to greater misdeeds, to crimes. How did that whole evolution is pulling you and tighter and tighter in the mob happen?

Robert Borelli:
Well, a lot of the people in the neighborhood was getting a little bad. In other words, there was other nationalities coming to the neighborhood. So a lot of people started moving out, and even the club moved out and they moved towards Queens. And I started hanging out in Queens and I had becoming a friend of one of the big wise guys in the neighborhood's son. And he would bring me around him and go see his dad, and his dad would have... I remember, every Friday night, there's big spread, food, all you can eat kind of thing, a good chef cooking the food. And all these people would come in and recognize his father and give him respect, and they would sit down and money was exchanged. I don't remember a lot of that at that time, but when I seen how much respect that his dad was getting, from all these people running really sharp-dressed guys, I said, "Man, that's my next set. That's the way I wanted to go." So I started hanging out with his son and building a reputation for myself.
I didn't want to be known as Andy's son's friend. I wanted to be known as Robert Engel. I didn't want no subtitles. So I was a kind of a wild guy, and I got recognized for fights that we had in bars, out of bars. I was the one that would go, I don't know, be a little bit more violent than everybody else. But at this one time, somebody got killed, and I was wanted for that murder. Me and another friend of mine was wanted for that murder, and my friend's dad hit us out for a little bit. And as I was on the land from the lure, something happened where we were and we had to come back into the neighborhood. And that's where Nicky comes in the scene.
They placed me with Nicky who had a storefront on Eastern Parkway and Atlantic Avenue, and they would hide me up in somebody's apartment there. And that's when Nicky started mentoring me. He was a man that loved pigeons. And on top of the roof where I was staying, there was a pigeon coop and he would come up there and he would come and get me and my friend Joe and bring us up there. That's how all the mentoring discipleship started. And then I got really close with him, and then I got locked up for two murders at the age of 20 years old for two murders and possession of a weapon. And he orchestrated everything for me to get bailed out. I had to lay up for a while, but they finally got me in front of a judge that was going to give me a decent bail and they bailed me out. And from then on, I was paraded around like I did the right thing, because one of the murders that I was locked up for... Well, I can't talk too much about them. [inaudible 00:12:19] for a lot of that.
But anyway, the point is, after that, I was paraded around as the up-and-coming star. And that's why I was getting brought around to other fans, Mulberry Street. And then two years later, I ended up beating one of the murder cases. With five eyewitnesses against me, I still got acquitted. And that really raised the roof of my reputation was as a kid that went to trial, beat a case, stood up, stand up guy. And from then on, I just became a legend in my own mind, I guess, probably a legend in other people's minds.

Warwick Fairfax:
Wow. So your friends, people in the mob saw you as this tough guy that did the right thing, didn't turn anybody in, beat the rap, and you were getting respect. You were at a point in your early twenties when you had exactly what you wanted. Probably money, nice car, nice clothes, and above all, respect. In one sense, you had everything you wanted. So did it feel like, "I've made it. I've got respect. I've got a family," in the broad sense of that word. How did it feel at that time?

Robert Borelli:
Well, I did. I felt like I was really being well-known in the neighborhood. So if I go places, people, if it was a restaurant, they take care of me nicely. I just got a lot of respect. And for me, I think every young boy or young man wants respect. I think that's one of the major things that we strive for is people to respect us. The only problem is, I didn't command it, I demanded it. And it's a little bit of a difference when you demand respect.
In the movie A Bronx Tale, something said there that really stuck in my mind. He said, "You could get respect either through love or fear." He says, "I choose fear because sometimes love fades away. Fear in the heart forever." So anyway, that was some of the stuff that I... That was just me, man. I was a man that wanted to get respect and demanded it from everybody. And if I didn't get it, I became violent.

Gary Schneeberger:
It's really interesting that you mentioned A Bronx Tale a couple of times because I've seen that movie, really enjoyed that movie. For those folks who are listening and watching, haven't seen it, directed by Robert De Niro who also stars in it. His son is a young boy than man. That is much like what happens that you've been describing, Robert. He gets around the mobsters and he's sort of caught up in that. But one of the aspects of that movie was, Robert De Niro who plays his dad, really sort of tried to pull his son back and his son was having none of it early on. I'm interested to know, how did your parents react to your being sort of absorbed a little bit into this mafia culture and those individuals? What role did they play maybe to help you?

Robert Borelli:
Well, it's a good question. I think because of the drugs and seeing a lot of the older guys that are in the neighborhood, being all drugged up, they... Drugs was pretty big back in the '60s, goof balls and all that kind of stuff, sniffing glue, all that kind of stuff. So she thought that might've been the better place for me to be because these guys weren't involved with that kind of a lifestyle.
And then, since I was getting respect too as I got older, it transformed to them too. They were starting to get a little respect. They definitely don't want to say anything that's going to offend anybody. My parents both are gone but I still have relatives. I just think my mom thought that was a safer place for me. And of course, she didn't know the tragedies that came with that or the violence that came with that. She just thought I was better off hanging out in the club than hanging out in the streets.

Warwick Fairfax:
So here you were, Robert, in your early twenties. In one sense, you're at the pinnacle, I suppose, of your career in the mob. You had respect, money, clothes, cars, but it sounds like you didn't stay at that pinnacle for too long. Things started getting more challenging. So just talk about what happened, because it's not like you kept moving up in the ranks and getting more and more respect. So what happened? What, in a sense... It's weird to say what went wrong. You could say, well, it's already wrong, but from your career perspective at the time, things started going wrong. What kind of changed?

Robert Borelli:
Well, I remember one time, Nicky and Lenny, they were partners, Nicky and Lenny, the gentleman that we talked about that was mentoring me, came to me and he said, "Everything we have, we're going to end up giving it to you. Go straighten out and all that." I had to remind them that I had a German last name. And they said, "Oh." So I couldn't get straightened out because, at least, your father had to be Italian. So they said, "Oh." Didn't even think about that.
So right away from that, now I know I need to really start making a lot of money. An episode happened at one of the dice games that I was working, where this gentleman came in, really sharp, good-looking guy came in. A lot of them were, but this guy stood out the most. He lost a lot of money out of his pocket, probably about $10,000 maybe, and didn't faze him in the least. Me, I was a bad gambler. If I lost $25, I was upset. And he didn't show any of that there. And after he didn't have any more money, he asked one of the guys that run the game if he could send me out to his car to get a bag in his back seat. And they said yeah. So he gave me his keys and it was a brand new spanking beautiful Jaguar. I'll never forget it. And in the back seat, there's a bag. Now I don't go look in the bag, but he said give him the bag. So I pick up the bag, I bring it to him. It's just more money.
Now, I don't remember if he got his money back lost at all, I really don't remember the end of the story, but I just remember, at the end when the game broke up, I asked one of the guys, what the heck does this guy do they'd lose that money? You broke about in the '70s, the middle of the '70s. It's a lot of money. I said, "What does he do that it didn't even bother him that much? They lost that." And they said he's one of the biggest drug dealers in Harlem. And when they said that, now I want to be like him, to have that kind of money, gamble it, lose it, and know I have a lot more money. And I got involved with the drug business. And it didn't take too long, probably about 10 years of that, then eventually the drugs got involved with my business.

Warwick Fairfax:
The theory is, you exploit other people without it hurting you, without you taking the drugs. But it sounds like you started taking some of it. So tell us what happened, because that seemed that that was part of the beginning of the road downwards, if you will, in terms of...

Robert Borelli:
Well, even though in my neighborhood, I didn't see a lot of coke being shoved around back in the middle '70s, but in Manhattan where I was hanging out now working games and stuff, a lot of those guys were doing coke. So I thought it was more acceptable now because I've seen a lot of these other guys starting to do coke. So I started hanging out in bars with them, and then I'd do a little coke with them. But eventually, after a period of time, the coke got the best of me and I got really strung out on coke. So even though I was trying to make money with the drugs, I was doing more of the supply than selling the supply. So eventually, there was nothing happened. That's why I say the drugs got involved with my business.
And then back in '78, I think it was '77 or '78, something like that, Richard Pryor had an accident with freebasing cocaine and he [inaudible 00:20:24] fire. And that kind of hit the neighborhood. And somebody turned me onto freebasing. And I did a little bit of it and I had no cravings anymore. And I figured, okay, this is better for me than snorting the coke. So I got involved with freebasing, but then after a while, that became very addicting to me. And then I started losing everything, started losing lot of respect in the neighborhood also, started losing a lot of respect for me because now I was getting addicted to freebasing. And then I didn't have any more money and I was losing everything, and crack cocaine came around, which was a cheaper high back in the '80s, and I started getting high on crack cocaine, and eventually, wound up homeless back in 1996.

Warwick Fairfax:
So the drugs really began to take hold, not just hurting you, your health, but bankrupting you, if you will. And I guess, from the mob mentality, you're meant to be in control, and you weren't in control anymore. You might've been a tough guy, but the drugs beat you. You couldn't win against drugs. And so then, respect was probably the most important thing to you, and you lost respect from your peers. I mean, that must have been devastating, to lose that respect and have them look at you the way they probably did. That must've been searing experience.

Robert Borelli:
Yeah. But I also lost a lot of respect for myself. I tried to fight the drugs, went in rehabs and stuff like that, but eventually, it got hold of me and I just couldn't let... Matter of fact, it came to a point in time that I didn't want to live without getting high. So I was getting high 24 hours, seven days a week, and the only time I wasn't getting high is when I passed out or had a blackout and fell out.

Warwick Fairfax:
So, as bad of as that was, from what I understand, things actually got worse. How could they get worse? So just talk about Rikers Island, which is a prison in New York, and your daughter. That's almost sort of like the bottom of the pit of your story. Do you know what I'm saying? It just felt like it was even worse than where you were, in some sense.

Robert Borelli:
Yeah, well, I've been in and out of prisons a lot of times, but this one time... Because after I cleaned up a little bit and went to Florida to live with my mom, and Nikki then came down, I started doing stuff for them. But 1996, I didn't know it because I was living on the streets of Brooklyn and Queens around the borderline there, that I was wanted for a case, a RICO case in Florida where everybody got arrested already and they were looking for me. And then also, I had a drug case, but when I knew the Feds were looking for me, I stopped going to court for the drug case, so I had warrants out for me.
Just to go back a little bit, just to let them people know that in 1993, my daughter was born, and seven weeks after she was born, I was pretty good. I just came out of a rehab, was doing pretty good, started getting some things back, started to get some respect back. And then once I got a little bit of that back, I went out one more time to get high after having an argument with her mother, and then I wasn't allowed to see my daughter anymore. So that's the big part of the picture of being in Rikers.
I got what I call a wake-up call by two angels. I call them angels today, but actually, they were warrant officers at that time. I passed out on somebody's house, and because of the warrants, two guns were pointed at me. The warrant officers found out where I was and they put me in Rikers Island. Now I know I'm not going to get any bail or anything like that, and I know how to play the jail scene and the prison scene. And there's two things that are pretty important when you're going to be stuck in prison. One is, you need to get a good attorney to get you out of the mess you got yourself in, and that worked pretty good for me because I never did a real long stretch of time. I did a couple of years here and there, but that always worked out pretty good for me.
But you got to remember, I was on crack cocaine so I didn't have any money. So now I'm calling up some people that I feel maybe I did them a favor or something in the past and they would want to help me out, but everybody was telling me no. And then I know you need to get commissary money so you can live as comfortably as you can while you're incarcerated. And everybody was just refusing me, even my own family, in a sense, which just really felt that I was safer or better off in prison than outside the streets.
And I have to tell you, that brought me to a place of complete despair because the people... I'm not saying that they didn't love me, but I felt unloved at that point in time, and I felt abandoned by everybody that they would stick me and leave me in jail, that they thought I was better off in prison than back out on the street and I had to rethink about that. But my daughter's mom now is letting me call my daughter. And I was calling my daughter a little bit, and this one time I call her, she's crying, and her name is Brianna, and I said "Brianna, why you crying?" She said, "'Cause you won't come and see me." And those words, for some reason, if I could have ran and got a drink or a drug or anything to numb the feeling that happened, my heart just shattered in pieces, man, and I was crying. And I didn't want the inmates to see me so I slammed the phone down and ran back to my cell.
Now I'm going to say something because it's nothing against Roman Catholics, but I was raised Roman Catholic, I went to a Catholic school, grammar school, and I knew about God but I didn't have a relationship with God. I knew about Him. And I ran back to my cell, got on my hands and knees, tears coming down my face, and I just cried, "Now, God, if you're real, have somebody kill me or change me. I don't want to live with the pain that I'm living with right now." And I just kept crying, "God, please help me. God, please help me." And I truly believe that God answered the sincerity of my cry of my heart at that point in time. And if I'm talking to you, you know He didn't do the first part because I'm still around, so I believe that at that point in time, God really entered my heart and started just changing the way I was thinking, the way I was feeling.

Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, that had to have felt like maybe the lowest point in your life because you were craving respect. The mob has obviously abandoned you. It's like, "This guy's going nowhere, he's not going to be able to help us. He's on drugs and we're not going to let our high-priced lawyers help him out. He is on his own. We're washing our hands off him." And then your own family probably maybe they thought it was tough love. You felt like you were abandoned. And then to have your daughter say, "Dad or daddy, why can't I see you?" I mean, it must have felt like the whole world has abandoned you. And for some people at that point, they might say, look, life's not worth living. How in the world did you choose faith, choose God, or maybe he chose you? I mean, that has to have been the lowest point in your life. Everybody's abandoned you. Nobody cares about you. You don't have respect. How in the world did you, at that lowest moment, choose faith? That just seems a remarkable choice for somebody in your position.

Robert Borelli:
I actually didn't understand it. I just was crying out for help and nobody else was answering me. So like I said, I knew about a God, and I cried out to Him. What really attracted me to Jesus is when I got the Bible and I started reading how much he loved me, in spite of all my defects. And that attracted me to know more about this guy that really loves me in spite of everything that I did.
But one of the things I wanted to say that when my daughter cried out to me, "Because you won't come and see me," there was so many... The flashback that came to my mind in an instant was, how many times are you in the neighborhood and you'd rather get high than even try to go see your daughter? Whether the mother would've let me or not, I didn't even try to go see my daughter. I'd rather get high. And that, I think, was the lowest point in my life. Not that everybody abandoned me, that was pretty big, but that as a man, any type of man, would a abandon his own daughter because he loved drugs more than he loved his own daughter. And that devastated me.

Gary Schneeberger:
I want to dive back into a little bit, because you've said it a couple of times, this idea that those close to you, those around you abandoned you. We have a saying here at Beyond the Crucible that we use a lot, and that is, those bad things that happen, your crucibles, they didn't happen to you, they happen for you. And I wonder if, because if that abandonment hadn't occurred from the people you knew, it sounds like maybe your encounter with Jesus wouldn't have happened. So have you come to a place where you see that, perhaps one of the best things that those folks could have done is exactly what they did, leave you to your own devices, because you had nowhere to turn in the natural world to get out of the pain you were in? Does that make any sense?

Robert Borelli:
It makes total sense, and I speak about that all the time when I give interviews and when I go out and speak and share my testimony.
There's a picture a long time ago that I watched, and Robert Kane, I think it was Robert Kane or... Michael Caine was in it. And it was about this guy, and Jim Belushi was in it, and he grows up and wants to go back to when he was a kid because he felt bad that he didn't hit the home run with the bases loaded to save the game. He struck out. And Michael Caine shows him that if that didn't happen, he wouldn't be where he was today.
I look at my life, not exactly that, but I look at my life and I always say, if any decision that I made, or even the bad decisions, God worked it out for his good. I believe God knew I was going to fall in love with him, and he worked out everything for good. So if I were to change one thing, I probably wouldn't be where I am today, talking to you guys about my Lord and Savior.

Warwick Fairfax:
So just talk about those first few weeks and months, as you're exploring your faith. How did that change your outlook on life, because you were at the lowest of the lows? How did you begin to claw your way out of that deep dark pit that you were in?

Robert Borelli:
I don't take any credit for any of that. When I share my testimony, I try to share this like a before and after, or before Christ in my life and after Christ in my life, and try to paint the comparison picture, would you want the life that I had before Christ or look at the life that God has given me, the new life that he's given me? So that's just how I look at my life. So I give all credit to Christ living in me and living through me. There's just so much that he's done in my life, and continues to do in my life, but he gets all the credit. There's nothing I did.
I say it this way. They say the average person, this is the statistics that I looked up a couple of years ago said, the average person makes about 35,000 decisions a day, the average person. I tried to add that all up, I couldn't even come up with the figures, but over 10 million decisions that I made in my life. But there was one decision that changed the outcome of those tens of millions of decisions. That was my decision to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. From that point in time, my life has changed dramatically, not just what I do, but how I think.
I don't look at Christianity as a religion. I look at it as a way of life. And I tell people, when I was Robert the gangster, everybody in the neighborhood knew I was a gangster. I lived it out to the fullest. When I became Robert the crack head, everybody in the neighborhood knew I was Robert the crack head because I lived that out to the fullest. Now I'm Robert Borelli, the born-again Christian, and people in my neighborhood know that I'm a born-again Christian because of the way I live my life.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. One of the things we talk a lot about at Beyond the Crucible is identity. Before you had your identity in being Robert the gangster, Robert is going to get respect in the neighborhood, but I'm guessing your identity is different. How would you describe your identity now, of who you seek, where your respect comes from? How would you look at it now?

Robert Borelli:
Well, now, I say I command it, just by the way I live, and it's not like I'm looking for it, I just get it [inaudible 00:33:43] the person that I became. But when I went into the Witness Protection Program, they take everything from your past away from you. You put everything in a black bag and everything's gone. Pictures of your daughter, your mother, whatever you had, they're taking that away from you.
And then they give you a new identity. They relocate you. They give you a new identity. What I try to do is do a comparison of how it is to be born again in Christ Jesus. What the government did was wipe my slate clean. I have no police record, I have no nothing. I have a fresh new start as Robert Borelli. Nothing from my past came with me, physically anyway. Of course, I still had some of my old thoughts, but what the government did for me in the natural, Jesus Christ already did for me in the spiritual. He wiped my sins clean. I have a fresh new slate with Jesus Christ. I have a new identity in Christ Jesus. I'm no longer Robert Engel. I'm Robert Borelli. And my identity as Robert Borelli is in Christ Jesus.

Warwick Fairfax:
You mentioned witness protection. How long were you in prison in Rikers, and talk about, without getting into details that you obviously can't get into, because people might be listening and say, okay, so he's in prison, where does witness protection come in? I mean, how did that all happen? And how long were you in prison before that happened?

Robert Borelli:
Well, I was in Rikers Island probably for about four months. Now, there's a lot of things that transpired, and I think afterward, even though I hated it at the point in time, because my lawyer wasn't getting any money, so I would be waking up at four o'clock in the morning, shoved into a bullpen with 50, 60 people, crowded. You stand just putting your arms together. And I would go to the courthouse and never see a judge, and that happened for quite a few months. And I would stay there from four in the morning until sometimes 12 midnight.
And what happened was, after everybody said that they don't think there's anything that they can do for me, because of that, my mom... I was calling my mom and my mom said that this FBI agent kept coming around, trying to get information from her about me, stuff like that. And after everybody turned their back, and I'm not making any excuses for what I did, what I did was selfish in the sense, but I called up that FBI agent. I got his phone number, called him up, and he gave me an offer I couldn't refuse. He said, "If you cooperate with us, we'll make a recommendation for short time and place you in the Witness Protection Program. You can start your life all over again." And I just thought that was the best option that I could have had at that point in time.
Because remember, even if I stopped the drugs, I would never have been Robert the gangster anymore, at least not in the level that I wanted to be, because once drugs has messed up your life, they're not going to trust you that much with things. So you're always going to be thought of as Robert the drug addict, even if I clean myself up.
And then the thought is, every time I went and came in and out of prison for a period of time, I kept being Robert the crack head. So I thought that was the best option. So I finally decided to cooperate with the government. And then from Rikers Island, they put me in the Dade County Jail. You would think that life would get better. You have God, you have the deal with the government, but it didn't happen that way neither. I was left off with solitary confinement because I was a witness for the government for quite a while, and I started to cooperate with the government.

Warwick Fairfax:
And so they eventually let you out. How long were you in the Witness Protection Program for?

Robert Borelli:
I was locked up for two years after that, and then when I got out and got relocated, I was in the witness protection close to two years. And then because I married somebody from what they call your danger zone, which was from New York, even though she didn't know them personally, they said I violated my agreement with them. I jeopardized my security. And they actually didn't want me to tell my wife that I was in the Witness Protection Program, and there's no way in the world I'm going to marry somebody and not tell them something like that. So they decided that you can't be here no more, so they threw me out.

Warwick Fairfax:
What's fascinating to me is, obviously, as part of the Witness Protection Program, you choose a new name. You chose a name of Italian background. It's like, "Gee, let's make it difficult for people to find me. Let's use an Italian name." I mean, if this was a movie, the script that the director would say, "Cross that one out, that's not believable." I mean, nobody's ever going to do that, so why choose an Italian name?

Robert Borelli:
Because I look Italian. Most people who hear my dialect sounds... If guys from Brooklyn talk automatically, they take you're Italian. They look at Brooklyn at the language as an Italian language. So one person asked me what country I was from when I was in Texas. I didn't know Brooklyn was a country, but I come from Brooklyn, New York.
And that's the reason why I choose that. But I didn't actually really just think about it. What happened is, I was giving them some names, and I always wanted to have an Italian name, I don't know. I love mammole, I guess. I don't like the German part of my background. But I would give them names and they would come back saying that name's no good. And I happen to be watching this episode of MASH. And then this episode that I'm watching at the point of time just before they come in, they have to send out a doctor, an emergency to get this doctor into the MASH unit from another unit to do an emergency surgery for one of the patients that they had in the MASH unit. And he happened to be Dr. Borelli. So when they came in, that name stuck in my head and I said, Borelli. They came back later on and said, "Okay, that's your name."

Warwick Fairfax:
It's stunning to me that they will say, that's okay, rather than, hey, Robert, try again. But that's just confounding to me. So-

Gary Schneeberger:
An interesting fact, if I may, sorry. An interesting fact about Dr. Borelli on MASH, I just looked it up on my phone while we were sitting here, and he was played by who, Robert?

Robert Borelli:
Alan Alda's father.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right. He was played by Robert Alda. Alan Alda's father played Dr. Anthony Borelli on MASH in two episodes, in 1975 and in 1980, so there you go. It's got some heritage there, certainly in the MASH universe as well.

Robert Borelli:
Well, also shows I'm not making it up.

Warwick Fairfax:
There you go. Amazing stuff. So from what I understand, part of that is, you're intimating is, you met your wife, Patricia, I believe, at least during that time, which partly ended the witness protection. So talk about that because she knows you as a different person. She probably didn't know-

Robert Borelli:
Well, she heard a lot about me when she was in New York, but...

Warwick Fairfax:
You were a different person as you got to know her, at least, in Christ and all.

Robert Borelli:
Believe it or not, we dated on the phone for five and a half months because she couldn't know where I was. A Christian friend of mine met her at one of these conferences or something and felt that she would just mention that me, in a sense, to this girl, because she was looking for a husband and I was looking for a wife. And she just put us together. She couldn't know where I was so I have to call her through a calling card, which doesn't show where you're actually calling from, and that's what the government issued for me. And we dated for five and a half months. And then at the end of that there, I had asked that she would come to meet me in San Antonio, Texas where I was relocated, and made the stipulation, "You have to stay with my family minister, you can't stay with me." I wanted to keep it as pure as you possibly can.
And I would stay there and we got to meet each other and know each other a little bit for like 10 days. And then she's ready to leave. And I'm asking God, okay, what do I say to her? "See you later?" She's going back to New York. "I'd give you a call."? What you would normally say to a girl that you really weren't that interested in. And [inaudible 00:42:42] God was telling me to ask her to marry her, and the crazy woman would say yes.

Warwick Fairfax:
So, one of the things that folks listening are going to be wondering is, I understand, because you're dating somebody from where you lived, and witness protection says, well, that's violating parole, so you're now no longer in witness protection. In the movies, you're typically not okay when you're not in witness protection. The bad people mobs, at least in the movies, so now we know where Robert is. And again, you don't need to tell us details, but how in the world are you okay, given in witness protection, you are giving information about people? How can you be okay? Is that just a miracle from God? Again, you don't need to tell us details that you don't want to.

Robert Borelli:
In the beginning, once I got thrown out of Witness Protection Program, I was a little concerned about all that. The more my faith grew, my wife also a born-again Christian, her recommendation was, now, you can tell your story, because you're not bound by the Witness Protection Program, because when you're in the program, you can't tell anybody that you're in the program. So now, I could share my story. And we did get a little bit nervous and we left San Antonio, a friend of mine put me up in Utah. And I stayed there for a couple of months and there was a...
My friend knew Pat Robinson. They mentioned my story to Pat Robinson. And my heart was for ministry. I was doing nursing home ministry for a couple of years when this happened. And Pat's recommended me go to Christ for the Nations, which is a Bible institute, and I signed up for that. And after a couple of months in Utah, I moved to Dallas and went to Christ for the Nations. And I just look at it...
It's hard to tell people that they need to surrender their life to Christ. Now this might sound foolish to everybody else, but how could I tell everybody they need to surrender their life if I'm still holding back part of my life in fear or something like that. I don't believe fear comes from God. I believe it comes from the devil. And I truly believe that fear could probably paralyze you for doing what God has called you to do, because he didn't save me just to save me and go to heaven. He had a plan and purpose for my life, and fear could have interrupted that if I lived in fear. But think of it this way, what's the worst that can happen to me? If I get killed, I go to be with the Lord. And if I don't get killed, I stand here and do what God's called me to do, so I don't think I could lose either way. And that helps clear my mind a little bit.

Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, that's truly remarkable. I mean, that is faith at a level that most of us can't relate to, but somehow... I mean, how many years has it been since you've been out of witness protection?

Robert Borelli:
See, I got thrown out in 2001.

Warwick Fairfax:
That's more than 20 years, and somehow, God had a plan that we all will pass at some point, but it seemed like God had a plan saying it won't be the way that you think it could be, the way it is in the movies when you come out of witness protection. So, do you look back in saying that's remarkable, that God had a plan for me and it wasn't what it could have been?

Robert Borelli:
Well, [inaudible 00:46:15] if I could trust the government to keep me safe, but not trust God to keep me safe, I think I have a problem with my faith?

Warwick Fairfax:
That is so well said. On your website, you have a video, it's a great video, and I love how the title of the video, it starts as Unredeemable, and it shifts to Redeemable. Just talk to me, why did you use those terms? Because that's a big shift from Unredeemable to Redeemable.

Robert Borelli:
Most people who know me from my past didn't think... I was beyond redeemable. So we're just trying to put the point out, no matter where you are, wherever you're stuck with, whatever your past looks like, whatever your present is right now, it's never too late for a new beginning. And I try to always stipulate my new beginning started on my hands and knees crying out, "Lord, please help me, Lord, please help me."

Warwick Fairfax:
So talk about your ministry and speaking. I know you have a real heart for kids. Talk about what's on your heart. You have a passion for redemption, to give people second chances. Talk about what you do now and really what your heart is.

Robert Borelli:
Well, we'll just go back to the whole scene, if that's okay with you guys.

Warwick Fairfax:
Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robert Borelli:
When I was brought to San Antonio, Texas, relocated there, my mom was diagnosed with, she was a year before I got released, with the terminal lung cancer. And my mom had passed away before I even got a chance to really have any relationship with her. I didn't understand God's plan at that point in time, because I'm saying, if anybody needed this new type of love that she'd given me, it would've been my mother who I put through so much, we could say, hell on earth, murder trials and all the stuff that I did. And I just felt God was talking to me. [inaudible 00:48:09] if you go give that to other mothers and fathers.
And I had started doing nursing home ministry and I did nursing home ministry for 13 years, but I didn't go once a month. I went twice every week in nursing homes, and I would do different functions for them to show them that they're not unloved, that we still love them. Some of them, their families abandoned them. Some of them, their churches abandoned them. And I didn't want them to feel the way I felt when I was locked up in prison being abandoned. So I just dedicated my life to nursing home ministry and did that for 13 years straight, twice a week.
And from there on, then God started moving me around and doing other things and people will come to me and say, "What's your story? You need to really start reach other people, lost people and stuff like that." And then that's what we started doing. So I got involved with sharing my testimony, going into churches, into schools. All the schools started a little bit later, but wherever God opened up the door, that's where I would go and share my testimony. It's just a message of hope and how much Christ really loves them. For people who feel that they're unloved or abandoned or stuck in a bad situation, and I say, "It's never too late for a new beginning, you don't have to stay there. God has a plan for each of our lives." So those are the things that I do.
Now, we're even on YouTube. We're on TikTok. We're doing social media. I was totally against that at one point in time. I didn't want all that kind of stuff going on, and I don't know how to do it neither so I had to hire people to do. But we found out we're reaching a lot more people. Now, there's a twofold kind of thing. What we're doing is we're showing them the mafia thing. We're getting a lot of people wanting to see the mafia part of my story, and then we're switching it over to how my crisis changed my life. So we're doing all these things. We have the possibility of a script being written, stuff that we're trying to raise money for now, and the chance of maybe the possibility of getting, not a synopsis, but a series kind of show going on about my back story to just a message.
And I think that's so much needed today. This is not my story, it's God's story. I couldn't come up with these thoughts in my own mind on my own. But we're in a place today where, like you said earlier about truth, everybody thinks that they had their own truth, but in reality, there's only one truth. There's only one truth. And we're divided every place in our country, in the world, in the churches. There's just so much division. I think young kids today really have a hard time to know what the truth really is because you're seeing one person's truth.
And I don't want to get into the politics part of it, but how everything is so divided in our country and I wanted to introduce them to the one truth, and that's the word of God. If they really want to know the truth, get into the Bible. Jesus loves them. He wants to speak to them, and he wants to give them the one truth, a message of hope. And that hope is not into something, but in someone whose name is Jesus Christ.

Gary Schneeberger:
And that sounds, you heard, folks, sounded a lot like the captain turning on the fasten seatbelt signs, indicating that our plane has begun its descent to the end of this conversation, but we're not there yet, because as always, Mr. Fairfax, I'm certain, has another question or two for Robert. So, Warwick, I turn it over to you.

Warwick Fairfax:
I guess a couple of things occurred to me, one, and listeners might be curious, how's your relationship with your daughter? There was a period where you were in prison, in witness protection. How did that part of the story turn out?

Robert Borelli:
Well, after a certain amount of years, my wife found her on Facebook and wanted to know if I wanted to get in touch with her. And her mother didn't want me to be part of her life, so I didn't want to violate that. So I said, let's pray about it a little bit more. The mother kind of have to pray in a lot of years for the child to change, to soften the mom's heart about me because they're involved with that lifestyle too, from the neighborhood. And a guy that liked what I did was total taboo for that lifestyle. Anyway, God did that and I started seeing my daughter.
Right now, we're still hitting some rocky roads where she's having a hard time forgiving me because she feels that I abandoned her. And I don't know if she could completely understand what addiction is or how you could just fall in love with a drug more than you could fall in love with your own child. And I probably understand that to an extent, but that's the bottom line. So she still has a sense of I abandoned her and I took drugs over her. So we're working on things and we're just praying a lot to this [inaudible 00:53:09].

Warwick Fairfax:
I'm so sorry. I mean, I understand where she's coming from, but I'm so sorry. That's a tough thing.
I guess another question that occurs to me, whether it's my story or Gary's, a lot of people obviously on our podcast that have been through tragedy. When you talk to other people about what you've been through, when somebody says, "Robert, what you said helped me, it gave me hope." Does it fill you with some kind of... It doesn't make all the pain go away, but does it fill you with some sense of, I don't know, some redemptive moment when people say, "Robert, what you said helped me." Does it feel like a little bit of, I don't know, water for somebody that feels like they need just some refreshment, if that makes sense. I mean, what does it feel like when people just tell you, "Thank you, Robert. Boy, that helped me. It gave me one more day of hope."?

Robert Borelli:
I just feel like I'm accomplishing what God wants me to accomplish for his glory, for his purpose, for his plan for each and every person's life, that does change to his message using my circumstances. So like I said, there's nothing I do today that I take any credit for, except just accepting Him as my Lord and Savior. But he's doing it all and he's living in me and throwing me in, and that's the exciting part of my life.

Warwick Fairfax:
Last question. There might be somebody today, and maybe they're at the bottom of the pit, maybe today's their worst day, maybe something horrendous was done to them, maybe they've done something they feel is unforgivable and unredeemable. What would a word of hope you would offer to that person who feels like, "I'm not worth loving. I've done too much. Too much has been done to me."? What would've hope be to that person?

Robert Borelli:
Well, it's really hard to speak to somebody in a biblical sense because they're not there. I don't think they're there anyway. But like I tell my, it's never too late. You don't have to stay stuck at where you're at and you don't have to. Nobody's unredeemable. Nobody. If you listen to my story and God could reach out and touch my life and transform my life, he wants to do... Matter of fact, he already did it for them. All they have to do is believe it and receive it. He did it when he went to the cross.
And he values their life. If he didn't value their life, he wouldn't have died for them. It's one thing. In my lifetime, I would die for my friends, and there's times I put my life on the line for my friends. But if my enemy wanted me to die for them, ain't no way I'm going to die for them. But yet, Christ, through his love, for his people, for his children, he went to the cross for them. Nobody is unlovable in the eyes of Christ, and everybody's redeemable, in the power and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Gary Schneeberger:
Folks, I've been in the communications business long enough to know when the last word on the subject has been spoken, and our guest, Mr. Robert Borelli, has just spoken that last word.
Warwick, we've just finished talking with our guest, Robert Borelli, who had a remarkable story to tell about being fascinated by, being drawn into the mob, the mafia, when he was a young boy in New York, and just all the crucibles that came after that, and then his redemption after that. Lots of things to talk about and unpack. What is, as you think about it this soon after we're like less than two minutes after doing the episode, what stands out that can help our listeners and viewers that Robert talked about?

Warwick Fairfax:
Robert Borelli's life is a life of redemption. He, at one point, would've said his life is irredeemable, it's unredeemable, and now it's being redeemed. He started off life in the neighborhoods of Brooklyn, New York in the late '50s, '60s, '70s, thinking the way to get respect is to be in the mob. His parents were not very wealthy. They didn't have much, but he saw the wise guys, as he put it, with the nice clothes, the fancy cars. They're in the clubs and they had respect. He wanted respect. He didn't want to be poor, and so, he got respect. He was discipled, in a sense, by people in the mob, by older people that saw him as a promising young up and coming guy. He would be tough, do things maybe other people wouldn't do, and he was working his way up.
But then he fell. He started taking drugs. As a drug dealer, from what I understand, you're not meant to actually take the product yourself but he did, and he spent more money on drugs than he was getting in, and he was then shunned by the mob. He was shunned by his first wife. He wasn't able to have a relationship with his daughter because, at one point, he would rather, as he puts it, do drugs than see his own daughter. Then he is in prison, he couldn't see his daughter. So it's easy to look back and say his was an unredeemable life, and his identity, at the time, was completely in being in the mob. That was his sense of self. "My respect only comes from being respected by my fellow folks in the mob." And then in prison, and then afterwards, he comes to faith in Christ and now his identity is in Christ.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right. He said a couple of times, as he was talking about his descent into both the mob and then drug addiction, that some of his old friends had abandoned him. At one point, we asked him, because he used that phrase a couple of times, and I brought up the idea that we say all the time, it didn't happen to me, it happened for me, and I put before him the question, "Is this abandonment that you experienced, can you perceive it like that?" And he said yes, he could. In fact, he had done that, which was remarkable to me because I don't know that we've had a guest who had quite the level of...
I mean, listen to this episode, folks, watch this episode. He's on trial for murder. He's deeply addicted to drugs. He had a lot of very, very difficult things happen to him that he caused to happen, some things that just happened to him. He gets abandoned by folks. He sees then that the way that they treated him by shoving him aside, by not coming to his aid, was actually the thing that led to his redemption. I just think that's a remarkable story, from a very remarkable, difficult story.

Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a great point, Gary. In one sense, his abandonment was the key to hope. How can abandonment lead to hope? Here he is. He is abandoned by his first wife. He's not able to have a relationship with his daughter. He is abandoned by his parents. At least, that's the way he sees it. They might see it as tough love. He's certainly abandoned by the mob in that he went from being Robert the mobster, the gang leader, to being called Robert the crack head. You get no respect, from what he says, in the mob if you're a crack head on drugs, and so, his career was done when that happened. And so here he is, abandoned by his family, abandoned by the mob, and yet, that brought him to his lowest point where he sought God or he sought faith in Christ. That wouldn't have happened without that, if he'd not taken drugs.
Let's say he hadn't taken that first sample of cocaine or whatever it was in Manhattan all those years ago, and he stayed being this tough guy, this wise guy, he might've had a decent career in the mob. But because he went so low, life totally changed. I think his perspective would be, if he had stayed on that life, I don't know if he would've been dead or in prison, maybe one or the other. I don't think it would've been a very happy path. It would've been a dark path. I think he pretty much implied, he may not be here if he'd got, whether it was through drugs or whatever else, he may not still be alive. And so, yeah, talk about pain for a purpose. That abandonment was the key to him seeking a different path, faith and faith in Christ [inaudible 01:02:27]. How could anything good come of abandonment? In his case, that was the key to him turning his life around, as a horrific experience as it was.

Gary Schneeberger:
So until the next time we're together, everybody. You heard it here, crucible experiences are difficult. They're hard. You've heard it in every episode that we've had, and Robert's story certainly adds some perspectives you haven't heard before on the show. But what you have heard him say that you have heard before on the show is that no one is irredeemable. You have heard him say that. What happened to him, it didn't happen to him, it happened for him, some of those things that he went through that were difficult. That is our story as well. That can be your story as well. When you learn the lessons of your crucible and you apply them to your life, you can move forward to the most fulfilling destination of your journey, and that is where Robert's landed, where Warwick's landed, where I've landed, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with the Beyond the Crucible Assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or The Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially, the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment, it's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.

To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.

A comment from a recent guest on the show about the tension between growth and comfort as we aim to move beyond our crucibles prompted a blog on the subject that fuels this week’s discussion. Warwick and Gary examine three truths about why prioritizing comfort rather than growth when setback and failure strike will not lead you to the joy and fulfillment of a life of significance.

The only way forward is to press into what your crucible teaches you about yourself, the growth it’s granted you in your wisdom and resilience, and be ever-ready to dial them up as needed.

To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.

Gary Schneeberger:
Comfort is something that we feel, and as we've discussed here, we can feel it in different ways. We can feel it, the crucible is comfortable, because it's what I've known, and even it's hell, but it's home. Or comfort can be, "I don't really have a crucible. Everything's fine. Nothing to see here." That can be comfort too, that emotion. But growth is an action. Growth is something that happens to you. Growth is something that you step into. Growth is something that you pursue.
Growth and comfort. Two distinct concepts that we talk about this week is we take a deep dive look into our latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com, Why Growth and Comfort Can't Ride the Same Horse. That phrase is something our recent guest, Dr. Margie Warrell told us. And we not only unpack why it's true, but also how you can make sure you saddle up for the journey that will lead you to growth and to a life of significance.
So, Warwick, this is one of the episodes that we talk about a blog at beyondthecrucible.com. This blog is entitled, this one that we're going to talk about here is called, Why Growth and Comfort Can't Ride the Same Horse. Sounds intriguing, doesn't it, folks? Keep listening, because you'll find out why. One of the interesting things about this though, Warwick, is that this is the first time we've spoken on the podcast about a blog that was written by somebody other than you. This particular blog was written by me, and I'm just going to explain a little bit of the inspiration for it before we get into the details of it. But it came from an interview we did a couple of weeks ago with Dr. Margie Warrell, who is a friend of yours, and she's a friend of the show, and she said something while discussing her book, The Courage Gap, that I used for the title of this blog, which is, Comfort and Growth.
She actually phrased it, "Growth and Comfort Can't Ride the Same Horse." And it stuck in my head in a way that I just couldn't get it out. It's like, why is that true? What does that mean? And it's interesting for me, just by way of introduction, folks, I was going to say as Warwick and I were preparing for the show, I was going to say I'm a quote nerd, word very kindly suggest that I should call myself a quote connoisseur, because that sounds better than quote nerd. But I have a whole bunch of books of people with quotes, right? Here's Winston Churchill, what's this one called? The Smart Words and Wicked Wit of Winston Churchill. I've got quotations of Ronald Reagan. I've got Abraham Lincoln, the Wit and Wisdom of Abraham Lincoln. I've got something here from Brooks Brothers clothiers called Classic Wisdom for the Good Life, and I've even got, folks, The Wit and wisdom of James Bond. So-

Warwick Fairfax:
That's great.

Gary Schneeberger:
In addition to, right, here's the big one. The big one is this is sort of the small B bible of quotes, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations. So, I bring all that up, because you've probably heard on episodes of the show, especially episodes we talk about a blog, you've probably heard and seen me bring out quotes and get Warwick's reaction to them as he's making points through the blog. I probably won't do that, since this is the blog I wrote, pulled out for quotes. But I just wanted to set the stage of, Margie's quote really struck me, and I really wanted to unpack why that was and how that helps us move beyond crucibles.
And it's interesting, one of the things that we've noticed from the show is that we've gotten a lot of quotes over the years. We could put our own book, Warwick, we could put out our own Beyond the Crucible quotes from Guest's book, because people do say truly insightful and meaningful things to us on the show here. But I just want to ask you, Warwick, since you know Margie, as much as it struck me, I'm wondering, when she said to us, "Growth and comfort can't ride the same horse," what kind of impact did that have on you? Did that stick with you? What are your thoughts about that quote?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, when Margie said that, it sure did. It struck a chord. It makes so much sense. And really, the first thought that occurred to me is that when we're talking about growth and comfort can't ride the same horse, that is literally true, because one of the big stories that she shared was about a real horse. That growth and comfort can't literally ride the same real horse. So, the story that she shared was she grew up in Australia, a number of hours outside of Melbourne on a dairy farm, so there were horses on that farm. And when she was somewhat of a young kid, I don't know if it was 10, 12, somewhere around there, she wanted to ride a horse, and the one they had was a tame horse, but it was enormous, certainly compared to a young Margie. And she was terrified, but she was not going to let that horse, the fear of riding that horse overcome her.
She got on it and eventually learned to ride it. Now, ironically, that was the toughest moment, because later on she said to her dad, "I'd like to a bit of a wilder horse," a brumby horse as we call it in Australia. And that wasn't that big a deal, even though it was a wilder horse, the toughest moment, the toughest time was riding that first tame horse. And so, I think what that means more broadly is that none of us, certainly me included, maybe me especially, like doing potentially risky and scary things. I don't really like change that much, to be honest. But in order to grow, to expand your learning and capabilities, you have to have the courage to try and use scary things. You have to, in Margie's case, be willing to ride that enormous big horse, to get on that horse for the first time and make that horse move a few steps.
Typically, in horse riding you stick your feet in the backs, the heels into the horse. That's what you're meant to do. Maybe shake the reins a bit and off you go, hopefully not too fast. For me, it's ironic, while I don't like change, I don't like doing new scary things, I've done quite a few things that are very different in different parts of the world. As listeners may know by now, I went to Oxford at age 18, that's other side of the world from Australia, and didn't really know anybody there. Worked on Wall Street, again, didn't know anybody then at age 21 in New York City, then I got to Harvard Business School. Later on I launched this $2.25 billion takeover of my family's 150-year old family media company. And one of the things that I most didn't like about it is it put me in the limelight. I was on TV, at least my image was pretty regularly. I'd go to the mall and people would go, "Oh, that's Warwick Fairfax." I hate being noticed like that, so that was not fun.
And then later on I spoke in church in 2008 giving some illustration about my story, about what I went through in my family business. I've written and got a book published, launched this podcast. Each of those things were scary and new and led me to grow. So, it's ironic, I'm somebody that really doesn't like change or doing new things, but yet I've done many new things in many parts of the world.

Gary Schneeberger:
We talk a lot at Beyond the Crucible about what, Warwick, is called the pit, right? That bottom level when you bottomed out after your crucible, you can be in the pit. And we've heard it described by so many guests, including us, have talked about it's unbearable, it's searing pain. Warwick said it, I think earlier here, it's a very difficult place to be. But as I thought about that and I thought about my own story, that pit can also be comfortable. That pit can also be, yes, the way that I phrase it in the blog is, it's hell, but it's also home in some ways. And in my own experience, as having struggled with alcoholism in my early 30s, I mean through my early 30s, I was, after I became sober I was not comfortable venturing out into social situations with friends who knew me as someone who drank.
I was worried, folks, I was worried that I would not be liked as much. People would not want to share my company, that I wouldn't be funny, that I wouldn't be, all those things that I thought in my weaker moments, despite the difficulties alcohol caused me, those things that helped make me, me, I thought were tied inextricably to alcohol. And so, that was uncomfortable to walk out of that. And I discovered that comfort, I'm going to stay in this pit here a little bit, because if I go out of it, even though I'm sober, if I go out and venture out into the world, people are going to either reject me or not like me as much. That was a difficult thing to get over. It was only by going out and doing those things, going out with friends, not drinking, where I realized that nobody held being sober against me. Far from it, they were happy for me that I was no longer on a destructive path.
So, the courage I had to muster to overcome the comfort of the pit feels like home. Even though it was destructive, the courage I had to muster to get beyond that was to go enter society again as a sober person. And those two things could not have ridden the same horse. My comfort in the pit and my moving beyond my crucible could not have the growth to get there, could not have ridden the same horse. This point, Warwick, comfort can often be what keeps us tangled up in the aftermath of our crucible. What's your perspective on that truth?

Warwick Fairfax:
Gary, as you share your story, it's so interesting. Not everybody has gone through your crucible of alcoholism, but yet, there's a broader metaphor. You're thinking, "Hey, this fun-loving persona, this sort of happy-go-lucky guy, it only exists with alcohol. Unless I'm inebriated on my fourth, fifth glass or whatever, I'm just going to be this, I don't know, gray-like boring person that people will not want to be around." And that you hear the good voices, or the bad voice, it just says in your ear, "Gary, without alcohol you're nothing. Nobody will like you. Alcohol is all that produces the fun, loving, happy-go-lucky Gary that everybody likes."
And then when you found in, I'm sure those first months, years when you weren't drinking, it's like you're still the same person. Maybe better. Now, maybe some of the people that just like drinking themselves under the table, maybe it's like, "Oh gee, I don't want to be around Gary, because it makes me feel bad, because he's sober and I'm not," whatever. That's a dip. But your real friends there was like, I don't know if they said finally, but it's like they like being around you. So, there's this negative voice you've referred to, the phrase self-talk is different than self-reflection. The phrase you use, the negative self-talk says, "I'm nothing without alcohol," in your worst months. But you found, "If anything, I'm funnier, happier, people like me more." Does that make sense? It's like you felt like this was home, but in reality it was all a lie that wanted to keep you there. Does that make sense?

Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, absolutely. And it'll be, gracious by the time this episode airs, it'll be close to 28 years since I've been sober. You're absolutely right. It was something that just, I allowed it to make me feel comfortable and that comfort and growth couldn't coexist. I had to break out of what felt like comfort, which really wasn't, to go into living this post-crucible life. I had to live the post-crucible life. I had to get on the horse, throw the comfort away and go toward growth. And I did do that, and it's made all the difference in my life. And so, so many of my friends, just a couple of weeks ago before we recorded this I celebrated my 60th birthday, had a big party and neighborhood friends of mine who were my drinking buddies when I was in the grips of my alcoholism, still my friends, still love me, still came out to celebrate me. So, you're absolutely right. People have discovered in fact that they liked me probably a little bit more than they did when I was not sober.

Warwick Fairfax:
Who knew, right? It's like, "Huh, maybe I'm more than just the alcohol. Maybe that's diminishing the true Gary, not enhancing it." And that's the lie. So yeah, I mean, when I think of this whole issue of comfort and growth and I love that phrase you used, "It's hell, but it's also home." I'm reminded of a movie that we both love with Tim Robbins, The Shawshank Redemption. I think it was set in a prison in Maine, and I don't if it was the '30s, maybe it's the '50s, it was a long time ago. In one of the scenes there's an inmate that gets released and he can't handle being out on the outside. And from what I understand, this is somewhat common that prisoners get released and they find a way to commit a crime to get back inside, because that's the new normal. They're somehow comfortable in some strange sense. I guess more broadly, it is possible to feel like our own prison of our crucibles can be comfortable.
In my sense in some way I can relate to this, as listeners know, I grew up in a large 150-year-old family media business in Australia. In one sense I grew up in a crucible. It was a 24/7 crucible life. I was expected by my parents to one day lead this large company. I felt immense pressure and expectations from them, certainly myself, as well as some degree of inadequacy. I felt like I had to be almost like Superman in some sense. It's like the bar was so high, pretty much impossible to reach. And so, as I often talk about, in the Bible talks about the prodigal son who went away and wasted all this money. Well, I was the "good son" that stayed home and worked hard. I did my undergrad at Oxford, worked on Wall Street, got my MBA at Harvard Business School, and it was all part of a plan to prepare myself to one day be the leading figure, or a leading figure certainly in the family media business.
So, pre-takeover, which we'll get into later, it was very challenging. There were infighting amongst family members going back decades. Just pre-takeover my father died. So, despite all this growing up in the family media business, John Fairfax Limited in Australia, it was the only life that I knew and I never would have left voluntarily. It's like, could there be a better life outside The Crucible, which we'll get into. I'm not even sure that I would have called it that. It's like, "Well, I don't know, but I can't do that. That's my duty." And to step out aside of the circle, step outside of the John Fairfax Limited zone, who am I if I'm not the fifth generation heir to this family media company? I'm nothing. It would be a very scary thing. So, is it possible to have a better life outside of that crucible? I couldn't have even asked or answered that question. It just, this was home. It might be extremely painful, very scary, very difficult, but there is no life outside of this.
I think also the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbits in the Shire, they never left the Shire. It was the only life they've ever known. You never leave the Shire. It's this comfortable place. That doesn't seem so bad, but the point is, accomplishing things and saving middle Earth and all that, no, no, you don't leave the Shire. Well, in my case, you don't leave John Fairfax Limited. This is the only world I ever knew. And no, I never would have left voluntarily. So yeah, I get how you can be comfortable amidst the crucible. It may be painful, but it's the only life you've ever known, and how can you leave that for some scary unknowable future that in the midst of your living in hell on earth, if you will, it's like, well, anything that's different, it's going to be worse, right? A bit like Eeyore and the Winnie the Pooh, it'll be worse. The saddest this is, change will lead you to a place where it will be worse and more painful, so why change?

Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, I mean, for me, again, my alcoholism cost me a job, cost me more than one job. Cost me friends, cost me relationships. It cost me a lot of stuff, but still in that twisted way it felt like this was comfortable, because it's something, it was what I knew. And that's the thing that we're trying to get you to realize, folks, is that when, that's one of the reasons why growth and comfort can't ride the same horse. So, find growth, look for growth, have the courage to pursue growth and let comfort fall to the wayside. Because at the end of the day that's not going to, comfort's not going to pave your road to a life of significance. I think that's fair, right?

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.

Gary Schneeberger:
Second point in my blog, weird me say ... It's weird for me to say in my blog, second point in my blog is this, and stick with me on this one, folks, because it's pretty much a 180 from the first point. The second point is, comfort can breed a false sense of having overcome a crucible. By that I mean, it's sort of the other end of the spectrum. If the first point is that comfort can come from the crucible, because it's all you've known, as painful as it is, it's what you've known, it's what you feel you've become. It's what people relate to you at, this one is, the pit doesn't feel safe so much, it doesn't feel like a pit.
At some point you're allowed, you get yourself to believe it's not a pit, it's not that bad. This idea that comfort can breed a false sense of having overcome a crucible or having not even had a crucible. That's what can happen in what is at point two here. We forsake the notion that we've experienced something that has changed the trajectory of our life, and we continue on just sort of, I've heard you say, Warwick, on this show, a dozen, more than three dozen times, "Nothing to see here." You get into that kind of nothing to see here attitude, right?

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely.

Gary Schneeberger:
So, two times for me, just to continue my story, two times for me before I entered rehab and got sober, I danced around the edges of it. One time I actually started to see a psychiatrist. I went to a couple meetings, I mean, a couple appointments. He talked to me, I felt, "Hey, I'm feeling pretty good." Never went back, started drinking again.
Then one night things were so bad that a good friend of mine who had encouraged me before to get sober had driven me to the rehab hospital. I eventually went to six, eight months later, drove me to the front door, called in. There was someone there who was ready to meet me, and I never got up the courage to knock on the door, because I was convincing myself, "You know what? Now that I'm standing here, it's not so bad. I have some issues, and I might have lost some respect from some people, but I'm not as bad as the other guy, or I'm not as bad as what they tell in the movies, or something." I talked myself out of it. I tricked myself into believing I was not in a crucible. And that's what this second point is really all about. So, I know, Warwick, this may not fit your story exactly, but what's your perspective on this idea of the second point that we can indeed convince ourselves that our crucible isn't anything like that at all?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's such a great point, Gary. I think listening to your story, and you've shared this elsewhere, I think you felt like, "I can handle this. I mean, I'm not dangerous when I'm drunk. I don't hurt people. I'm just a fun-loving guy. I don't do anything terrible. I don't yell and scream at people and put them down. I'm not that kind of alcoholic, that kind of drunk person, and heck, I can get my job done."

Gary Schneeberger:
I was high functioning. I was high functioning. I could be out all night. I could get up the next morning and I could drive work. So, you're right, that made it harder to get help, because I didn't feel I needed it because I was still humming on all cylinders in some areas of my life.

Warwick Fairfax:
And I think a number of us can feel that way. It's like, "It's not that big a deal. It's not really derailing my life." And maybe it is in some ways, but you kind of overestimate how effective and functioning you are and underestimate how much you may be hurting people. And so, you feel like, "Nothing to see here. It's all good." And yeah, you're right. Mine is not quite the same. But in my case, growing up in this large family media business, if you said, "Do you think you're in the midst of a crucible?" And I'd say, "Well, no. It's just life. It's my life, but it's just life." It's like, boy, do you realize in certain parts of the country, like where you are, Gary, in Wisconsin, it gets cold? Maybe you'll get below zero at night. There'll be highs are teens.

Gary Schneeberger:
Maybe? Come on.

Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. And you're thinking of like, "Am I living in a crucible living in Wisconsin?" No, it's just life. It's hot in summer and cold in winter, and that's just life. Many people, they may not like their job. Maybe they're living paycheck to paycheck and maybe the kids are going through some challenging times. Maybe life is tough at school. Maybe some of the teachers aren't great. Maybe your boss isn't great. That's not a crucible, it's just life. As one of our former prime ministers in Australia in a moment of madness, as Malcolm Fraser in the 1975 election, he said, "Life wasn't meant to be easy." As a politician that's not a good winning slogan.

Gary Schneeberger:
No, that's not going to look good on the campaign button or a bumper sticker, I don't think.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I'm sure his public relations guy said, "What are you thinking, don't say that. That doesn't play well in the media. Life wasn't meant to be easy." But yeah, in my case, I just felt like there were so many challenges with family members and infighting and expectations, and was this a crucible? No, I just felt like it was just life. And more generally, we can think of other situations such as the workaholic father or mother that might say, "Look, I've just got to work hard for the season for these next few weeks, the next few months, and then I can spend more time with my spouse and my kids." And tomorrow never happens. I think of that great song, that haunting song Cats in the Cradle by Cat Stevens. And there's several lines in there where the father tells his son, "Look, sorry son, I've got a lot on my plate. I can't be with you. Can't play with you, but soon we'll be together." And the line is, "We'll have a good time then."
And it's just haunting, because I remember thinking, "I never want to be that kind of dad." And fortunately, I was able to be present with my kids and I didn't have that particular story or issue. But it's easy to fool yourself into thinking, whether it's alcoholism or being a workaholic or whatever your challenge is, "It's just a season. It'll go away, or I can handle it. And after all, isn't it about quality time, not quantity time?" The quality times I have with my kids and spouse and friends, that's really what matters. So, when you're in this kind of crucible, you can fool yourself into thinking, "It is temporary, it won't last, or even that it doesn't exist. It's just life."
And so, by dismissing it, inevitably you don't deal with it, because it's not a problem, or if you think it's a problem, it's a manageable problem or it's a temporary problem. Here's all these lies and negative self-talk that convinces you you don't have to do anything. It's either not a problem, a temporary problem, or you can deal with it and it's not that big a deal. Those lies are very destructive to your own life and typically to your friends and family.

Gary Schneeberger:
And I just thought of this, as you were talking, and I can't believe I didn't think of it beforehand. Because as I said, my birthday, a couple of weeks ago I turned 60 and every year on my birthday since I turned 50, I've posted on social media, X number of years, my age, X number of things I've learned in X number of years on earth. From the beginning of this, actually, from my 50th birthday, so for the last 10 years I changed them around from year to year, add some new ones.
But one of the things that I write that I believe to be true is that comfort can be a form of cancer in the sense that it can erode away your life. If that's what you prize, if that's what you value, if that's what you grasp, if that's what you grab for, only living in comfort. I mean, we talk about that all the time at Beyond the Crucible, right? A life of success, a life of comfort is not the end goal necessarily. You've got to have a life of significance. I think comfort can be something that keeps you, to the point of what this blog talks about, keeps you from getting beyond on your crucible. And if you don't get beyond your crucible, you don't get to your life of significance, right?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's such a good point. Comfort can be its own crucible. I think of people who retire. You get to the point in life, you work at your company for 30, 40 years, and you think, "Great, I can retire." Maybe you've got a decent package from the company financially, and play golf or live at the beach. And typically, people who retire who do that, they die young. That's what the studies show. What that means is, you want to live a long life, which we all do, you need purpose, you need meaning. You need what we call a life for significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Maybe you retire from your regular job, but maybe you volunteer with church or nonprofit or find something that you feel like is rewarding using your skills and things you're passionate about.
So yeah, I mean, as you were saying a minute ago, "Some people who think life is all about success. If I'm CEO or start a big company or whatever it is, and I have this nice house, great cars, the boats, the travel," it becomes empty. You achieve everything you ever wanted to. And it's like, "Well, what now?" You tend to fool yourself into thinking, "Oh, if I get a bigger house, a bigger car, if I grow my company 30%, then I'll be happy." But it never happens.
And so, you are comfortable financially, but yet very often, typically sometimes you are miserable. Money and success in of themselves, and as listeners know, I grew up with about as much money, success, and status, because the Fairfax family were very respected in Australia and certainly Sydney. It's like being a Kennedy or a Bush, Rockefeller, what have you. But yeah, extreme comfort, which I suppose we had in some sense, at least financially, it doesn't make you happy. Certainly true in my family. So yeah, comfort can be its own crucible. And if comfort is your highest goal, certainly in terms of success or financially, it won't lead to joy and fulfillment. You might think, "Oh, once I get to that next rung on the ladder, then I'll be happy and fulfilled." You won't be. And that's the sad thing. So, comfort could be its own prison and crucible.

Gary Schneeberger:
Right, and the reason that you don't get to that joy and fulfillment is the purpose, or is the point of this blog that we're talking about and the point of what Margie Warrell said, and that is, "Growth and comfort can't ride the same horse." The reason that you end up stuck there in a place of where you're leaning into whatever that comfort may be as opposed to that growth is that you haven't saddled up, right? You haven't saddled up a horse that's carrying growth that can help you get to that life of significance, that joy and fulfillment.

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And at Beyond the Crucible, now that I think about it, we define growth in a particular way. Here at Beyond the Crucible we believe the ultimate goal in life is a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others, that will lead to joy and fulfillment. We believe certainly the Christian faith, and I would say almost all major religions, psychologists will tell you that focusing on others and life on purpose certainly will lead you to more joy and fulfillment than just focusing on yourself and money and fame. So, it's really a universal truth. When we talk about growth here is better than comfort, we're talking about growing as a human being, growing in the sense of trying to bring a vision to reality that others said it, that somehow has a sense of purpose and meaning.
We're not defining growth as in you grow your company or you grow how much money you have in the bank, but you are physically growing the size of your house or how many cars you have. We're not talking about self-centered growth. We're talking about growth in the sense that leads you to being a better person that somehow has a greater impact on the world, whatever that means to you, that helps others and has some sense of purpose. So, at least at Beyond the Crucible, that's how we define growth, if that makes sense?

Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, for sure. And that also, this is so funny, when we do episodes where you've written the blog, you always take the last point or one of the points before I get to them, and you lay it out perfectly. And you did it again on the blog that I wrote, which is fabulous. The more things change, the more they stay the same. It's beautiful. The third point in my blog, the final point in my blog is that growth is the only elixir that can propel you beyond your crucible. And Warwick just explained that, that getting beyond your crucible from our perspective means getting on that journey to a life of significance. And you can only do that. Growth is what is the fuel, is the rocket fuel, the jet fuel, the elixir that gets you to that place.
I mean, on every episode, more or less, I will end a show with something along these lines to folks, like you who are listening and watching. I'll say, "We understand that your crucible experience is hard. We understand the pain, we understand it can knock you off your feet. We understand it can change the trajectory of your life, but we also know it's not the end of your story. We also know that if you learn the lessons from your crucible and you apply those lessons, it can lead you to on a journey that will end at the greatest destination you can ever end at." And the last words I say on every episode of the show, maybe not the first couple, because I hadn't thought of it yet, but the last words are, what is that end destination? A life of significance, like Warwick just said. That is where growth, saddling up the horse for growth, putting comfort aside, going toward growth will lead you to a life of significance. And by definition that means you've moved beyond your crucible.
One key point I want to say before I turn it over to you, Warwick, is that even when that happens to you, folks, even when you've done that, great example, right? I've been talking about my crucible of alcoholism. And I've been sober now, as I said, it'll be 28 years in April, and that crucible's done. But guess what? I've had other life-rattling crucibles that have happened since then. So, those things that I learned about how to manage a crucible, those things that we talk about at Beyond the Crucible can help you get through the crucible you're going through right now, can help you get through crucibles that come in the future.
Because here's the truth about crucibles. They tend to come back like hiccups, right? They tend to come back. Different circumstances, but as Warwick says, it's rarely, rarely one and done. Warwick has not launched a takeover that ultimately failed for a second time at a cost of $2.25 billion dollars. But he'll be the first to tell you, he has gone through crucibles. Crucibles come back in different forms, and the lessons that we learn, the growth that we accumulate as we're riding that horse toward it are things that we can then apply to further crucibles. So Warwick, this third point, what's your perspective on the idea that growth is the only elixir that can propel you beyond your crucible?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I just thought of a heretical point, which is-

Gary Schneeberger:
Oh, good.

Warwick Fairfax:
... crucibles can be a blessing. We don't seek them, but you only grow with challenge. You only grow with obstacles and crucibles, and none of us really seek crucibles, at least I think we shouldn't. But yeah, inevitably, you're right. It's typically not one and done. Life is not easy. Inevitably, there'll be crucibles that come. It could be at work, at home, health challenge. There could be all sorts of crucibles that will happen. Some may be your fault, some may not be your fault. We tend not to be the kind of people it's like, "Well, I made one big mistake in my life and I've never made a big mistake since. I've never made a bad decision since." No, we're human, so we tend to make mistakes, some big, some small. We can have big and small crucibles.
But ultimately, the reason they may not feel like it crucibles can be a blessing is because pain causes you to step back and go, "Ow, that was painful. What the heck happened? Why am I here?" And we can learn and grow and become better. The new opportunities to use our crucibles to help others, which many, if not all of our guests on the podcast have done that, used their worst day to help others. When you think about getting beyond your crucible and how to move forward, there's two aspects. One is, you've got to understand what happened and why. It's often very painful, but why did I make that mistake? Why did that happen to me? What can I learn?
And the second is, you've got to find a way forward. In the first part you've got to do a lot of what we call inner soul work, a lot of deep inner reflection, and it can be very painful, but you've got to do that deep reflection. But having done that, okay, you understand your crucible, you understand what happened, you understand why. Well, now what? You've got to find a way to move beyond it. And moving beyond your crucible can often be terrifying and scary, you don't know what to do. But the key is figuring out one small step. And that small step may not lead in a linear fashion to your life of significance to some life-affirming vision, but it's a small step forward. It's almost like a small step forward, anywhere it can be helpful.
And as we've heard from Maggie Warrell in just the example of that horse, when she was a kid growing up in Australia, it was pretty scary, even though it was a tame horse. The key is, what's one small step you can move forward, you can move beyond your crucible? And as we've said, that first step is often the scariest step. It typically does get less scary. You move the flywheel, to get the flywheel moving can feel like you're pushing this massive boulder uphill. But once you start getting it moving, it's a lot easier.
For me, in my case, I had to reflect on what happened when this 150-year-old family media company went under, went bankrupt in late 1990s, and I realized that I was living my great-great-grandfather John Fairfax's vision and not my vision. I was living the life of a corporate takeover CEO. That was just not who I was. It wasn't in line with my skills and gifting, I'm more of a reflective advisor. I was trying to deal with conflicts in the family that went back decades. That alone was incredibly challenging to overcome. And all of those collectively were very challenging.
So, I realized what happened. Part of it was my fault, part of it wasn't my fault. I'm living somebody else's vision. It's not in line with my skills and abilities. And so, okay, so I learned the lessons of it. I understand it, did this self-reflection, extremely painful, but I learned the lessons. Well, now what? Well, I had to make a decision to move forward. And it's like, "Well, how do I get a job? I mean, who's going to give a job to a former medium mogul, an out-of-work media mogul?" It's like there really aren't job openings for that. So, it was tough. But eventually I got a part-time job in Maryland at a local aviation services company as a financial analyst that was then turned out to a permanent job, so that was a big step forward.
Later I gave a 10-minute talk in my church in 2000, made a certain illustration about my story. I'm not, certainly back then was not comfortable speaking in front of, I don't know, six, 700 or however many were in the auditorium that day in church. But that led to me decide to start writing a book. That was all very scary and painful, writing two or three hours a day about some of my worst, most painful experiences, it was just unbelievably painful. But I did, because I felt like this could help people. Each of these steps, starting off as a part-time financial analyst thinking, "Gosh, I'm probably the lowest paid Harvard Business School graduate in history." I don't care about money, but it was pretty ... Somewhat humiliating, I have to say. But I needed to do something. I can't just keep sending out resumes and hearing nothing back, I've got to do something.
Giving that talk in church, that was very scary, starting to write my book, that was scary and painful both. I think what this means is that when you've gone through a crucible, you've got to reflect on what happened and why I learned the lessons. But then you've got to take a step forward. You can't just feel like, "Oh, Shawshank Redemption, I feel comfortable where I am. Any step forward has got to be more painful than where I am." That's a lie. You've got to have faith and belief that, "There is a better tomorrow. I'm going to take that next step forward. No matter what happens, going to try and move beyond my worst day."
Growth is always painful. Change is always painful, but you've got to be willing to go through the pain and you will look back once you make a few steps and say, "Gosh, I've moved a few steps beyond my crucible. I've grown, I've learned." That gives you more courage, like a flywheel of courage, if you will, to take the next step. But you've got to reflect on what happened and have the courage to take that first step forward, that first step of growth beyond a crucible.

Gary Schneeberger:
And as we wrap up, as we get close to wrapping up here, one thing that jumps out at me about the conversation is that comfort is an emotion. Comfort is something that we feel, and as we've discussed here, we can feel it in different ways. We can feel it, the crucible is comfortable, because it's what I've known. And even right, it's hell, but it's home, right? Or comfort can be, "I don't really have a crucible. Everything's fine. Nothing to see here." That can be comfort too, that emotion, right?
But growth is an action. Growth is something that happens to you. Growth is something that you step into. Growth is something that you pursue. Comfort really is something you just lean back. We're all, comfortable chairs at home. We just lean back and let it absorb us. The idea of the reason that they can't ride the same horse, I think, is that there's only room in the saddlebag for one emotion. And that emotion is a desire to move beyond your crucible. That emotion is courage. That emotion is wanting to find a better day, and that's the only way you can direct that horse to go.
I think another way of looking at this is, growth and comfort can't ride the same horse, but the saddlebags on the horse can't contain a whole lot of emotions. The best one to take with you is a growth mindset. That's kind of an emotion, "I want to grow." And then go pursue it. That's the way to get it done. That's my takeaway from our discussion, Warwick, what's your takeaway from what we've discussed here on the show?

Warwick Fairfax:
Well, just as you're talking, Gary, I'm reminded growing up in Australia, I don't know if they do it here, but there would be a number of government, public service commercials, inspiring, start to promote or to elevate the populace, if you will. And there was one with this couch potato, I think they're called Norm or something. So, any Norms out there, I apologize. And it was this cartoon, animated cartoon character, and Norm was just sitting on the couch watching TV and doing nothing. And the slogan of this public service commercial was, "Life, be in it." And so-

Gary Schneeberger:
Amen.

Warwick Fairfax:
... just sitting on the couch proverbially, you might feel comfortable, but inevitably that will lead to a crucible life. You'll feel depressed and frustrated. You don't want to feel like you're lost hours on earth, or you're thinking about what legacy you will lead or what your family and friends will think, or somebody's giving a sermon about your life. And it's like, yep, "Norm was a fine person, but he led a comfortable life. Never really did anything, never took any chances. In fact, he really had kind of a miserable life, but he wasn't willing to get out of his crucible. And really, as we look back on Norm, it was a very sad life and we feel sorry for him." I mean, nobody wants that to be a eulogy, right?

Gary Schneeberger:
Right. For sure.

Warwick Fairfax:
We feel sorry for him. It was a comfortable life in one sense. But no, I mean, you've got to take steps to get off the couch, get out the door, and be in life, whatever that means. And to be in life will mean it will require growth. And with growth that requires pain. When you think of people who want to lose weight or exercise more, those first few days, jogging, cycling, eating less, whatever it is, it's not fun. But as you do it more, it's like the second day of jogging, or the third day, the third week, fourth week, whether it's jogging or cycling, it's like, "Okay, this is so bad. I can do this. I feel like I'm getting a bit more energy, a bit fitter. Here we go."
But if that first day is often the toughest, so really as we sum up here, growth and change are not easy, they can be painful. They can be intimidating, scary even. We think of the prisoner in the Shawshank Redemption was just too scared to be out in the outside world, wanted to go back. We've got to have the courage to take that first small step, like Margie Warrell having the courage to ride that tame horse, to get on that horse. That first day it may be tame, but it was enormous and she was scared. I mean, I think she was literally scared to her stomach, I think as I remember Margie talking about.
But it's that first small step that requires so much courage. I remember, for me, in a different situation that I've spoken about so far, I was in this aviation services company in Maryland, in Annapolis where we live. I at that point was doing financial and marketing business analysis. Yeah, the pay wasn't great, but we were okay. I was getting great performance reviews. I was comfortable. I knew how to do the job. I knew how to do it well. I was certainly comfortable, but yet, there was that still, small voice from my faith perspective. I think it was the Lord just saying, "Warwick, you may be comfortable, but you're not using all your skills and abilities that you could, certainly for some higher purpose." And so, I quit, and my boss was like, "You really want to do this?" Couldn't quite understand why I would quit, because I was doing a good job.
And I'd received some coaching from a mid-career executive coach, and she said, "Warwick, you have a great profile to be an executive coach." So, I went to my first coaching conference in Denver in 2003, and subsequently I became an international coach, federation certified coach. That was one of the most significant steps I've taken career wise, because I felt like this is something I can do. Ended up, I think being a good executive coach, I'm curious, and that led to being on two nonprofit boards, including my church elder board at the time. It led to that talk in church. Then that led to writing my book, Crucible Leadership. It eventually ended up with Beyond The Crucible. The fact that I like to think I'm a good coach and love asking questions, that led to what I do at Beyond The Crucible with this podcast.
I feel like I can ask questions, I'm curious. I can do this. That was a big step for me at the time, quitting that comfortable job to go and become an executive coach. That wasn't the end of the journey at all, but it led to other things. So, I was comfortable, but I made that decision, as scary as it was at the time, "I'm not going to live in the world of comfort," which it was comfortable. "I'm going to grow because I think there's something more for me where I can have more of an impact and do things that are more in line with my gifting and have a purpose that makes some small impact in the world." And so I made that choice.
I think for all of us, you don't want to live in the land of comfort, even if it's a crucible level comfort. Maybe this is the only world I've ever known, but you've got to move beyond comfort, move beyond your crucible, and take that first step towards a life of significance. Take that first step towards a life of purpose, focus on others. It will lead you to a far more rewarding life than a crucible life or a life of comfort. That's not a fulfilling life, that won't give you joy and fulfillment, crucible life, a life of comfort. We all want joy and fulfillment. You want joy and fulfillment. Go through the pain of growth. Don't just stay in the land of comfort.

Gary Schneeberger:
That is a great ending to our discussion of the blog at beyondthecrucible.com, "Why Growth and Comfort Can't Ride the Same Horse," a quote from Margie Warrell. I mentioned at the outset of the show, before I get into our points of reflection, that I am a connoisseur of quotes. So, let's look at what James Bond, The Wit And Wisdom Of James Bond. Let's just pull one at random and see what James Bond has to say about this, if it's any helpful. Let's see. Bond says in The World Is Not Enough, "If you can't trust a Swiss banker, what's the world come to?" I don't think that has any bearing whatsoever on our discussion, but it is a fun point to end on.
Let's truly end, folks, on these points of reflection from the blog. The first point of reflection is this. What does growth and comfort can't ride the same horse mean to you? And this is important. Jot it down in your own words, and then ruminate on it a little bit, right? Then reflect on it a little bit. What does it really mean to you? You've heard what it means to me and Warwick. What does it mean to you that growth and comfort can't ride the same horse?
Second point of reflection is this. Have you ever had a tough time getting out of your post-crucible pit? Because as painful as it was, it offered some comfort too. What did you do to overcome that? And if you haven't overcome that yet, what can you do to overcome that? And that could be very well where leaning into a team of fellow travelers can be a really good help.
And the third point of reflection that we have here is, has feeling comfortable prevented you from moving beyond your crucible? How did you overcome that? And again, if you're still in the midst of that, if you come to realize, "Comfort's keeping me, it's holding me back." What can you do to overcome that? And again, team of fellow travelers, good place, and us as fellow travelers is a good place too. Send us a note at info@beyondthecrucible.com, or tap in. Please tap into the podcast, other episodes of the podcast for inspiration.
And speaking of other episodes of the podcast, we would ask you if you enjoyed this episode of the podcast to either rate it on the podcast app on which you're listening, or go if you're watching on our YouTube channel, to leave a comment there for us so we can know what it is you like about it and what it is you'd like to see us do in the future.
Until the next time we're together, I'm going to say what I said I say all the time, and that's this. We know your crucible experiences are difficult, but we also know this, they're not the end of your story. Warwick has talked about how it wasn't the end of his story. I've talked about how it wasn't the end of my story just within this episode. In fact, if you learn the lessons from that crucible, if you indeed take the first step, that very difficult first step to climb on a horse, that will take you to growth, where that horse can take you, where that destination can be at the end is the most rewarding destination you can ever find, and that is a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible assessment. Unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like The Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a roadmap to a life of significance. Ready? Visit beyondthecrucible.com. Take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.

Flexible Leadership, the title of business consultant Kevin Eikenberry’s latest book, offers a new way to think about leading, helping managers break out of leadership styles that may no longer be useful to navigate the challenges they face.

In our interview with Eikenberry this week, we discuss his new framework for leadership, built on flexors that allow us to break out of the rigid boxes that limit the ways we approach the thorniest issues before us. The key, he explains, is flexing tactics but not values and principles.

“The intentional, wise choices that this framework helps you think through, should help you move through a crucible faster and more efficiently,” he explains. “Not because it becomes easy, but because it becomes more manageable and navigable.”

To learn more about Kevin Eikenberry and get a free gift based on his book, visit www.kevineikenberry.com

To explore Beyond the Crucible resources, including our free Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment, visit beyondthecrucible.com.

Enjoy the show? Leave a review on your favorite podcast app and leave a comment at our YouTube channel and be sure subscribe and tell your friends and family about us.

Have a question or comment? Drop us a line at info@beyondthecrucible.com

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:
"Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible.

Kevin Eikenberry:
The reality is the firm rooting for us as leaders are our principles, our values, our purpose, right? The overriding mission of our business, if you will. Those things aren't moving, and so that becomes the firm foundation upon which our plant, us as leaders can grow.

Gary:
But life and leadership are about more than the things that are foundational to our day-to-day existence. It's also important as our guests this week, Kevin Eikenberry goes on to explain that we're flexible enough to account for the shifting circumstances we encounter. That's especially true when crucibles hit. "The key to navigating the middle ground," he says, "is the art of negotiating life's flexors," as we practice the title of his latest book, Flexible Leadership.

Warwick Fairfax:
Well, Kevin, it's a delight to have you on our podcast, and I so much enjoyed being on your podcast, Remarkable Leadership, and we're going to talk quite a bit today about your new book that's coming out, Flexible Leadership, Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. Before we get to that, I'd love to hear a bit about the back story. Understand you grew up in a farm in Michigan that really shaped a lot of your thinking, so just talk about what was it like for young Kevin growing up in Michigan on a farm?

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, I suppose I could say I had the idyllic childhood. It's the only one I had. I'm pretty happy with it. I mean, I think there's a lot of good things about growing up in the country, growing up on a farm. Again, it is my experience, but there's a lot of ways in which it shaped me. I saw something the other day that reminded me that farmers may be the biggest gamblers on the planet. They invest a bunch of money and then they go borrow a bunch of money and then they put a crop in the ground and then they hope things go well enough that they actually can get a crop out in a few months, or if it's animals, it's a similar sort of thing. There's a bunch of stuff outside of their control, and so they try to influence what they can.
I think I learned a lot about that. I learned a lot about the idea of influence as a kid. I had the chance in many ways to grow up with my parents because they're just 20 years older than I. I was tagging along with dad in the truck to meetings. I was interacting with folks a lot older than me at a very young age, which served me super well early in my career. We had an ag business related to the farm, and so I had a lot in both of those endeavors. I had a tremendous amount of responsibility that at a very young age that is pretty hard to replicate. For all those reasons, plus just I think it's pretty safe to say that I learned the value of hard work. There's just so many ways in which work that it shaped me and has served me in my life.

Warwick Fairfax:
I know that we hear a lot in management about leading in uncertainty and all of that, and I am reminded growing up in Australia, my dad loved the country, and so we go out into the outback and there it's pretty much, it's either a drought or a flood. Rarely is it anywhere in between. Imagine, I don't know how you farm there. You've got some places where it's so desolate you can't have more than one head of cattle per acre. I mean, it's unbelievably desolate, you know hundreds of thousands of acres. Yeah, farming, it's a tough life. I mean, you've got to lead with uncertainty when the context changes, the environment changes, the family may or may not want to go into the business. There's all sorts of uncertainties. It's got to be challenging. You probably must have learned some really key life lessons and management lessons from that family farm.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Yeah, I believe that I did. I think that there's another piece there, and that is that I think the other thing that I learned was in a small business, and so this may be a little less farm-related, but being involved in a small business, a family business from an early age, there's a sense of ownership that I always thought people, everybody took in their work. I came to learn that not everyone has that level of ownership in their work, but I think it served me, I mean, it took me a while to figure that out when I was working in a big company and that sort of thing.
I think how that served me was I saw a picture of what employee engagement could be and really can be. I think that that's helped me in leading our team, and I think it's helped me help other leaders see what's possible. Well, all the conversation that it gets had about employee engagement and all that stuff and all this stuff we've been trying to do, we as leaders, been trying to do for 30 years about increasing employee engagement. According to our friends at Gallup, the number isn't really moving very much. Yet I think that if we have a vision of what that could be and if we understand what engagement really is, then we got a better chance of helping to move that needle for our team, for our teams.

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, talking about some of the values and things that you hold most dear, I mean, one of the things I know that you've said, is there a couple of key words for you, several, family, trust, values, possibilities, and empowerment. Talk about how your experience of growing up in that family farm taught you what are probably just lifelong values or as a friend of mine calls them virtues, perhaps. Talk about how those things are really the core of who you're and what you believe.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, I think that all of us develop our values, at least in part through our experiences as a kid. We've talked about some of the things that helped to lead that for me, but I think a couple of other things beyond what I've already said is that first of all, I mean, it's that value of hard work and it's that value of recognizing doing what we can influence even if we don't always have control. I've got this sort of tremendous sense. Well, I'll go back and say I had the good fortune several years after graduating from Purdue with a degree in agriculture to be asked to come back and I got an award and as an alumni, and they said, "Well, Kevin, you don't do work that's at all what you went to school for. What's the connective tissue?"
I said, "Well, I went to school to learn how to lead and grow mechanical and biological systems, and now I help to lead and develop and grow human systems." I think the value that I have around just growth and the pleasure in seeing growth happen, whether it's in a field as the crop comes up and you can see down the row, my dad would say a very straight row, by the way. Then seeing that in members of my team or in those that we have the chance to work with in workshops or in a keynote setting or whatever, is just, I can draw that connection all the way back to my kidhood as well.

Warwick Fairfax:
That kind of leads into your career. I think what you're touching on after Purdue, you work for Chevron, apparently. It's obviously a very big oil company. Was that, for some reason I thought it was San Francisco. Was that the West Coast or maybe-

Kevin Eikenberry:
Yeah, it's San Francisco. I mean it's now not officially San Francisco, but the Bay Area, but when I was there it was, and so I worked in the chemical business, in the fertilizer business at first. Makes sense. You're in an agricultural guy. I relatively quickly found my way figured out and then found my way into the corporate training and development group, which was sort of the jumping off point to the work that I've been doing now outside of Chevron for over 31 years. I had a great fortune there to work with some leaders who were really wonderful, who were great exemplars, who were great mentors, who believed in me, who helped me move from the chemical business to the people business. Yeah, I'm forever grateful for the time that I had the chance to spend there.

Warwick Fairfax:
Talk about that pivot. I mean, it may not have been a crucible moment, but it was certainly a key shift in your career. You could have stayed at Chevron or other large corporate organizations, and my guess is with your hard work ethic and drive, you probably could have done pretty well if not very well, and risen up the ladder. You made a decision in 1993, and I love how you put it, but how you shifted from Chevron to decided to come back to the Midwest, come to Indianapolis. Talk about why you made that decision, why leave, why come back to the Midwest, Indianapolis? That was a huge shift in your career.

Kevin Eikenberry:
It really was, and there's a couple of pieces. The first is because you all know now a little bit about my background background, and so I really never saw myself being employed, but rather to be an entrepreneur, to run a business. Even when I started at Chevron, in fact, the first interview I had, I told who became my boss, I said, "Listen, I'm really not looking for a job." At the end of the interview he said, "I'd like you to go talk to my boss about this job, but as long as you don't lead with your first line, isn't Kevin ... Kevin, don't just start by saying, 'I'm not looking for a job.'" I said, "I can promise I won't do that." I ended up taking the job and I was there, but my goal always was to start my own thing. While I was at Chevron, I figured out what that was, which is the work that I do now.
Once I got into doing training and development work inside of the corporation, and I figured out that that's really what my calling was, then with the forethought that I wanted to have my own business and with now the great clarity that came with this is the work that decision was I think easier than most might think. On the other hand, within one year we had our first child, I started a business and we moved. The only thing I didn't have was a marriage, a divorce and a death to have the top six most stressful things in life. I suppose three of the top six.
I am doing the work I was put on the planet to do, and I'm very clear on that. I'm clearer on that now than I was in 1993. Yet that clarity had a big part to do with, I'm going to leave. Now, a lot of people at Chevron thought I was only leaving because I wanted to live in the Midwest, come back to the Midwest where I'm from, where my wife's from, raise our family here, which, of course, is true. As an individual business owner, I could choose to live wherever I wanted to. I needed to be by a big airport. Other than that, it didn't matter. But that really wasn't the biggest reason. It was a really nice extra reason.

Warwick Fairfax:
I love how you term it, that your life's purpose was to grow people, not plants or animals. I'm sure purpose tends to evolve and maybe not shift, but it gets more clarity, but it seemed like you had a clear vision. I spent my early years growing plants and animals, but I want to grow people. I want to help people flourish and grow and live their own lives. It just seemed like you had a clear purpose when you started your business in '93.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, it has evolved a bit. I mean, that underlying point that you just made is still 100% true. Over time, it became being largely about leaders because if we can help leaders grow, then we can help the world change. It is still about growing people and certainly, we're working with people across organizations and around the world, but we spend most of our time with leaders because that's the highest leverage point. Because nothing positive happens in the world without somebody leading. Things can go negative without help, but things aren't going to go positive on their own. Someone needs to say, "Let's go that direction, let's go to there." If we can help leaders be more effective, we're not only helping them, there's a ripple effect across the organization in the community and eventually around the world. That's the only, that's sort of the clarification that's come over time.

Warwick Fairfax:
That's great. I want to talk a bit about your book and as we talk about your new book, Flexible Leadership, Navigating Uncertainty and Leading with Confidence, we'll also weave in how you bounce back from crucibles because obviously on this podcast we talk about how do you not let your worst day define you and its leaders? Organizations can go through crucibles, leaders are human, their families, their situation, their town, their context. Yeah, maybe let's just talk about it from the point of view of your book. You're a thought leader, you've written many books, you have a wonderful podcast, Remarkable Leadership. You do [inaudible 00:14:12]-

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, it's wonderful because you were on it so that automatically [inaudible 00:14:16].

Gary:
I should say it was his first podcast appearance. That was your first podcast work was Remarkable Leadership.

Warwick Fairfax:
When I was on somebody else's podcast, yeah, so that was a while ago. You do so much good for leaders and empowering them in so many ways. Let's talk a bit about flexible leadership and why. I think you've said this may be one of, if not your best book yet. I think I read somewhere that you've said. Talk about, because you've been in this a while about leadership and helping empowering leaders, talk about why this to you feels different. It's not just one more book that you've written. It feels like almost a seminal work in your career. Talk about why this is so important to you.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, I'd like to think it's a seminal work, and if we sell a lot of copies and it makes a difference, then I'll claim that. What I will claim is that even though we've had the good fortune to sell a lot of books over the last number of years, I do believe, and two of my co-authors work for me. For me to say, "This is my best work," it may not feel real great to them, but ultimately, I do believe that it is. The ideas underneath it took several years to coalesce and for me to have the, I'll say, confidence to put it to paper because, I think, it is different than a lot of leadership books, and that's even sort of hard to say. Knowing how many books about leadership there are, knowing how many of them I've read, it's different in some ways because it challenges some traditional thinking.
While oftentimes, authors will say, realistically, "That leadership is complex, here are some simple things that you can do." That's kind of a paradoxical in and of itself, and yet that helps to sell books, "Try these 12 things or these four things or whatever," and that's all great, and that's all well-intentioned and quite honestly, in Flexible Leadership right from the start, I'm saying if you make the choice, if you see the picture I'm painting for you, it's going to make your job harder before it makes it easier because it forces us to look at things differently than our natural reactions, our natural tendencies, our past habits, our past experiences.
It forces us to consider some things a little differently on the front end. I think on the back end, it's well worth the effort, but it is different in that regard. I think I come at it pretty clear-eyed that this is hard work and leading while in some ways hasn't changed since the pyramids. The context and the nuance has changed a lot and it's changed a lot in the last few years. Since we locked down the world and Corona became a beer, excuse me, became something other than a beer, the world has changed a lot in a very short period of time, and that's not the only stuff that's creating uncertainty, but that's certainly part of it.
To think that we can lead the way we always did, because that's my style, that's my approach, that's what's always worked for me to think that it will still work as the context is changing and the complexity is increasing. Seems sort of silly. I think almost everyone would agree with that once I say it, and yet most of us are still sort of operating as leaders largely on autopilot and wondering why engagement's not increasing, productivity is not increasing, et cetera, et cetera.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I want to pick up on that, but one of the things I loved in the early part of the book is you talk about, yes, the world's growing more complicated and challenging, and we've got to find ways to understand that context without losing sight of what matters most. You say that that's the key goal, basically see and embrace complexity, but yet, and you write later on about a branch is pliant, but the tree is firmly rooted. I feel like this book is a book of paradoxes and we'll get into flexors later, which is a series of paradoxes. It's sort of like embrace the paradox. You want to be firmly rooted in your values and purpose, which you talk about later. You got to be flexible. It's like, huh? It's like a book of paradoxes. Talk about just that yin and yang, that the paradox, which you're really seeking leaders to embrace amidst a complex world.

Kevin Eikenberry:
It's really interesting. You're the first person that's used that word, paradox. May not be the last, but the first one in these early conversations I've had, and when I first was the ideas for the book, I actually thought something about paradoxical leadership or something around the word paradox might actually be the title. I'm actually glad it's not now. Yet there's no doubt, they're all through the book and that's the first one.
The very first word in the title is flexible. Yet a lot of people say, "Wait a minute, Kevin, shouldn't we be consistent? Isn't consistency good?" Until it's not. There's the paradox, and you use the metaphor of the tree. A tree or any plant needs to be flexible above the ground to bend with the wind, to not snap. If it's too rigid, it's going to snap in the elements, if you will. If it's not firmly rooted, it's not going to survive either. The reality is the firm rooting for us as leaders are our principles, our values, our purpose, the overriding mission of our business, if you will. Those things aren't moving. That becomes the firm foundation upon which our plant, us as leaders can grow, but once as we're growing, we have to be flexible and pliable and adaptable, because while we want to be firmly rooted in the principles, values, and purpose, we need to be flexible in approach.

Gary:
Let me jump in just for a second and pull this into the Crucible Leadership context because that's a paradox in itself. One of the things we say all the time here is your crucible experience didn't happen to you. It happened for you. Which sounds paradoxical, right? This terrible, life-changing, life-altering thing didn't happen to me. It happened for me. You said something, Kevin, in the document, we have guests fill out so we can ask informed questions. You said this about crucibles, "Don't deny the setback, but work to gain perspective on it. There are lessons to learn, so learn them. There are positives that will come from the setback. Look for them and make sure you don't try to do any of it alone." This idea of being flexible in leadership also applies to being flexible when you've gone through some trial and trauma, doesn't it?

Kevin Eikenberry:
100%. I mean, I can give you all sorts of examples of that. I'll give you an example from our business because Warwick, earlier you made a comment that we experienced crucibles, our businesses experienced crucibles, and we had one of those in our business this year. A member of our team has been here a very long time, wakes up one morning and finds out about 45 minutes later that her adult daughter has died in a car accident. Then that information gets to our team, a team of 15 people-ish. It's a big thing. I mean, there's the impact that it has on Marlene and her family, the impact that it has on us as a part of her extended family, the impact it has on the business in terms of her not having, understandably, having the level of focus and ability to do work for some period of time and really, for some long period of time, continuing to heal is a huge thing.
Would we wish it to happen? I think that's what I would add, Gary, to what I wrote to you guys before we did this. Just because we find positives from it doesn't mean it overcomes it or we would wish it to have happened because of that. It's not. We can, another paradox, we can recognize the positives that come from a challenge or a crucible situation and not say, "Well, okay, now that overwhelms it, and so it's a good thing that that bad thing happened." No, that doesn't have to be, both can be true. It can have been awful, and we can have great learning lessons, opportunities from it. Ultimately, and you mentioned it a minute ago, Warwick, about flexors. This idea of flexors in the book is that both can be true. We can be consistent and flexible. They are not opposites, though there might be tension.
We can have a crucible moment, which is awful and hard and difficult and life-changing, and yet from it, good things can come and both can be true.

Warwick Fairfax:
One of the other things I love and you talk about situations being clear, complicated, complex, chaotic, and all sorts of different environments, and I love how you talk about organizations as a living thing, which really brings leadership back to agriculture in a sense, which is cool.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, not the first person to talk about it like that after all. The word organization is actually based on the word organism, but yeah, it maybe is a nice connection point for me, but I'm certainly not the first person to bring that idea to the floor.

Warwick Fairfax:
It's a good metaphor that we tend to view organizations in very rigid terms. This is our culture, this is our structure, this is how we do things, rather than what the context can change, that people can change, the competition, the marketplace, where we are in life, that we need to view it as more as a living thing and evolving thing and adaptable thing rather than some rigid structure, which most people don't like change typically. I mean, they might change org charts. We say, "Well, we keep changing org charts, but basically we're not really making much of a change. We're just moving boxes around, but the essence of how we do things doesn't change." Talk about why that's so critical to be fluid organizationally.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, and we do that, we change the org chart around because if we view the world, if we view business in a mechanical sense, I can take the toaster apart and I can put the toaster back together if have got the right skill set and then it's still going to work. I can't take apart your favorite pet and put your favorite pet back together and have it be the same thing. It just doesn't work that way. Even the idea of we'll change the org chart and change the organization, fundamentally says because the organization is mechanical. Yet all of the people who are in that organization are not mechanical. They are wonderful, amazing and messy human beings. It's just back to flexors, right?
Are there things about organizations we're thinking about it in a mechanical way or useful Yes. If we only think about it that way, is it most helpful? It is not. Is an organization exactly like an organism? Not exactly, but are there a lot of things about it that are more organism than mechanical? 100%. What I think is it's not just ... So hopefully, what I'm helping people do is see the world differently rather than just saying, "Well, you really ought to try to be fluid or you really ought to try to be flexible," but here's why. Because fundamentally it's what will it actually mirrors the way the world is far better than the ways we've looked at it in the past.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's so true. That really leads into, I think, one of the areas that's the heart of the book is flexors. I love how he introduced an F. Scott Fitzgerald quote, which you would don't have to think of him as one of the leading authorities on leadership, but maybe he was. You have this quote, which I'll read. "The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless, yet be determined to make them otherwise." Just talk about flexors in general and then we'll get into big picture flexors and that every day. Talk about why flexes are so important in your whole leadership philosophy and why this is, I think, arguably a breakthrough in leadership thinking.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, I appreciate that. Those are very kind words. Let me say it this way that we try, I said earlier that one of the things that this book challenges us to think differently and actually challenges to think harder. Here's the underlying thing, and it goes with the F. Scott Fitzgerald quote, which I love. That is that we tend to want to think about the world as either or. Direct, indirect, black, white, win, lose. There are certainly some things in the world like that, but most of the world is not like a game of checkers or even a game of chess where it's win or lose, a win, a loss, a black, a white, either, or, zero, sum. Much of the world isn't that way at all. It's really both and. The idea of being able to hold those two ideas in our mind together is to say that both can be true.
Just like we said, both being consistent and being flexible can be true. The world is far more shade of gray, shades of gray than it is black and white, and yet it's simpler to think either or. Our brains are built around pattern recognition, which looks for yes or no, right or wrong. Flexible leadership challenge, the idea, underneath, flexible leadership is to challenge ourselves to think both and so that we have the chance to hold these two things in our mind at the same time and say, "This can be true and this can be true too, and which is more helpful to us right now. Just like we were talking about direct and indirect? Which one is more helpful to you, Pete, right now?" Intention, context, flexor.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, and I think that is profound in so many ways. When you're coming back from crucibles, it's easy to see things that black and white, was this the worst day that ever happened to me? Yes. Was it terrible? Yes. Are there ways that we can learn from this experience and bounce back? Was there blessing and gifts, Mr. Crucible? Yes. Were those terrible people that did something to me? Was that awful? Yes. Are there lessons? I think in my own life, which I think we spoke a bit about on your podcast growing up in this very large family media business, when I did my couple billion dollar takeover months after graduating from Harvard Business School, was I an idiot in a lot of ways? Yes. Should I have assumed that other Fannie members would've stayed in a Fannie business controlled by a 26-year-old? Was that a stupid assumption? Yes.
On the other hand, were there factors leading up to it with division that goes back many decades, my father having died, other Fannie members showing him out as chairman 11 years before that, colored subconsciously how I looked at life and my emotional well-being in some sense? Yes. Was it all my fault? My go-to tends to be, if there's a problem in the world, it's my fault. I don't have a problem with owning my mistakes. It's like, okay, well that's fine, Warwick, but there's a both-and right? There's a paradox. Yes, I made some critically cataclysmic poor assumptions, but on the other hand, you could say I was set up to fail and there's so much division going back decades and hearing my parents' version of the truth, which wasn't necessarily the same as other people's versions, it was a both-and situation, which has actually helped me move on because it's not as simple as it's all my fault or it was always somebody else's fault. By understanding the nuance, it's actually helped me move beyond my worst day, if that makes some degree of sense. Understanding the paradox [inaudible 00:31:25]-

Kevin Eikenberry:
There's a really important thing that you just said, and that is that it's extremely helpful and healthy for us to recognize taking ownership, which is what you said, right? If it's something out there, what part of this do I need to own? That is profoundly important for us to get to, and we're far more effective as human beings and leaders if we get there or when we are there. Yet we can't control everything, even though I can take ownership of what was mine. Yet there's only so much in the world we have control over, right? What we do, say, think, feel, choose, we have control over, and that has influence on a lot of other stuff, but we can't control or even influence everything. Recognizing the tension even between what we can control and what we can influence and recognizing the difference is incredibly important, incredibly empowering, and is really the only source of understanding how to be accountable is to recognize this is mine. It's not all mine, but I have to be clear about what's mine and then move from that place.
That's underneath flexible leadership too. Okay. The situation is difficult. Okay. The situation is complex. Okay. The world is uncertain. What can I do as a leader given that to improve the chances we succeed moving forward? There's no guarantee. Whatever you do, when you had that conversation with Pete, there was no guarantee it was going to work, right? But you felt like this is my best shot, improves my odds of a better result. That's the underlying idea here. How do I flex in any one of these given ways to give me/us the best chance of success right now in this situation, in this context?

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, and be at peace with the things you can't control. If you're on some family farm, especially in Outback Australia, if you want to be a farmer, there'll be drought and there'll be floods and rarely anything in between. You might see why in the world would you want to be a farmer in Outback Australia? I mean, you're set up to fail, but maybe that's what you've done and your parents did, so okay, there's a flood after years of drought. We have anything between, no. Okay, so what do we do? Rather than complain about what you can't control or gosh, maybe I should have been smarter or built a few. I don't know what more irrigation in the drought or few bores with the artesian water. Maybe I should have this that maybe, but we are where we are and let's just move on rather than second-guessing.

Kevin Eikenberry:
I want to go back to something else you said earlier. We were talking about your experience and you mentioned, rightly so, several times, the fact that one of the positives that come out of a crucible situation are the lessons. I know having talked with Gary before, and you and I having talked before, that we value learning and we value lessons and likely most of the people listening feel the same. Yet I think there are other positives that can come out after a crucible than just lessons and learning. I don't mean to discount them, but others say that there's other stuff too, right? Because of this thing that happened other. I'll just take the loss of a family member in our company this summer. Because of that, other people stepped up and took on responsibilities they didn't have before. Our team is stronger because of it.
Because of that, some relationships on our team are even stronger than they were before. It is lessons, but it's also, other things. You talked about when your father died, this is not the focus of this conversation, but I lost my father in 2007 and the number of amazing things that have happened in my life and for my family since then are innumerable. Many of those things that I'm speaking of right now would not have happened if my dad was alive. Now, would I trade him? Would I rather have my dad? Sure, but do I not want all these other amazing things? I want those too. I just have to say that's life. We've got to look at both of those in that way. So I just wanted to go back to the good stuff that comes out of a crucible can also be opportunities. It can be freeing us up to something new. It can be a whole bunch of other stuff. Lessons, 100%, and I think more too.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I think we talk a lot about gratitude and obviously, there are others that do that. Yes, it was obviously a searing experience, but one of the benefits when I look at my kids, there were 33 down to 26, they all grew up in the US without having the whole pressure and expectations of the Fannie business. They're all doing very well. They all have, faith is very important to me, so all have a strong faith and their work ethic is very good. You give them a task, you know it's going to get done. They're just are great human beings. That would've been much tougher in Australia being a Fairfax, which is sort of being a Rockefeller or Kennedy or a Vanderbilt. I mean it's really tough. Everybody knows who you are and how do you find who you are, which is a journey of most young people. Who am I? What's my place in the world? What do I believe? I tell them often I think they realize how fortunate they are not to grow up the way I did with all the expectations. That was a tremendous gift in a way to them.

Kevin Eikenberry:
You certainly weren't thinking about that in the middle of the Crucible.

Warwick Fairfax:
No, no. I was thinking, "Gosh, what did I do? How stupid was I?" I want to touch a bit on just a couple of categories of flexors here. Big picture and every day. It's almost like dials and I don't know if you have favorite ones, but you've got so many compliance, commitment, best, [inaudible 00:37:40]-

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, that's one of my favorites, so let's just talk about that. Compliance versus commitment. It's one of my favorites because I think, and so the overarching or the big picture flexors end up being the things. I had all of our team read the first seven chapters of the book before we had our whole team, who is remote, who are remote, we're all together for our annual meetings last week. As a part of us doing the work and the launch for the book, I wanted everyone to have context for the book. We all read the first seven chapters, and one of the things one of my team members said was like, "No one can remember 19 things, the number of flexors." I say, I really want it to be more about understanding. These are examples of not that there's going to be a quiz at the end, and what are the 19.
Listen, Warwick, you've read the book since I have, so let's not go down that path. Let's talk about one those overarching ones, which is compliance and commitment. I've asked leaders this for a long time in around country and virtual rooms around the world, "Would you rather lead for compliance," or I would say, "merely compliance or for commitment?" Nearly everyone says, "Well, I want to lead for commitment." Awesome. Guess what? There's a whole lot of leaders that clearly aren't doing that, even if that's what our desire is. Because if we were really leading for commitment and being successful, employee engagement, for example, would be way higher.
What we often end up doing is leading to, I just want them to say yes and move on. If all you really want is yes, sir, or yes ma'am, you're leading for compliance. By the way, there are some times when that's exactly the right answer. If we're in a chaotic situation, in a chaotic moment, they're looking for someone to point us in a direction. That's what we should do. Those are not the moments for us to say, "Let's gather and explore this and come to some consensus about this." No, they want someone to say, "Go this direction," and everyone says, "Okay, boss, I'm in."

Warwick Fairfax:
For instance, you're on the Titanic, it's sinking, so let's talk about it. Should it be women and children or men?

Kevin Eikenberry:
Exactly.

Warwick Fairfax:
First class, second class, back of the boat, front of the boat. Let's just talk. We want to make clear. We get on the same page before it's sinking, it's sinking,

Kevin Eikenberry:
It's sinking, and here are boats. You go here, you go here. 24 people for each boat, whatever, right, so 100%. Is there a time to lead more in a place of all you need for people to do is to comply? Yes. If we're there all the time, is that a problem? 100%, more now than ever. I would like to hope that I'm leaning into that my team would say, "Kevin leads in a way that creates greater commitment." I hope that that's true every day, but that doesn't mean there aren't times when I just need to say, "We've got to make a decision here. We're going here."

Warwick Fairfax:
Well, and you might find 98% of your team is with you, and there might be a 2% that's like, well, if they're not wholly invested in the vision, maybe they need to get in another boat. On the other hand, maybe it's like they've got particular skills that are so valuable that if they're willing to comply, maybe I make the decision for them to stay, even though they're maybe not as excited about the vision as I'd like. Okay, I can live with compliance so long as you do your job excellently. It's not as simple as one or the other.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Let's just take that person one step further. That may be absolutely the right answer now, but a year from now, that may not be the right answer. In other words, I would rather subtract that expertise because of what we'll gain. That decision could be the decision, as you described, it could be absolutely right at one point and not the best choice later. We're at the crux of this whole thing.

Gary:
We talk a lot at Beyond the Crucible about the idea of the ultimate goal of moving beyond your crucible is to lead a life of significance, which Warwick has defined as a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. As we talk about this conversation here about compliance and commitment, absolutely understand that there are times that compliance needs to be the goal. You indicated, Kevin, that if you asked your team, you hope they would say that you tend to default more to commitment.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Hope so.

Gary:
It seems to me that commitment, if you lead with that commitment foot, that is going to help you get to a life of significance, right? A life on purpose dedicated to serving.

Kevin Eikenberry:
I think 100%, right? Let's go back to what we said earlier about what are the roots and the roots are purpose. Purpose, values, principles. I also, think it's pretty safe to say that if you ask my team, what is our purpose here at the Kevin Eikenberry Group that they could tell you that in one way or another, they're going to say, "It's about helping as many leaders as we can make as big a positive difference as we can to make the world a better place." Now, we say it sometimes slightly differently. That's what it is. They all know that too. If we are all bought into that, then we got a lot better shot. Then I have a lot better shot of, and we have a lot better shot of leading a life and running a business that creates significance.

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, well said. One of the flexors, at least as a person of faith, I found very interesting. You don't often see this in a management book or leadership book, truth versus grace. I mean, that's like I think I've never seen that in any, and somebody for years being an elder in a Evangelical church, that is something that I think about a lot, that paradigm. Truth is important, but so is grace, to say, "Hey, you messed up." There's a paradigm that both are important and in a business setting, yeah, there's a right way to do things in terms of operationally. Then there's, okay, you messed up. You've got to give somebody some grace. There's the rule book approach. If you make one mistake one time, almost Old Testament like, you're out of here. There's the ultra grace approach, which is so long as you have good intentions, it doesn't really matter if you get anything done, it's all grace. I mean, I love that paradigm. That's not a normal management flexor to talk about truth versus grace.

Kevin Eikenberry:
I'm going to take that as a compliment.

Warwick Fairfax:
You should. I think it is good. People, even in a normal business setting, they should understand both, it is not either or, it's truth and grace and there's paradigm depending on the situation.

Kevin Eikenberry:
It's absolutely both. Let's just for a second, and I don't know if Marlene will ever listen to this podcast now that I'm talking about her daughter, did I coach Marlene differently in the days and weeks and months after that event? I sure hope so, right? Different in July than in May. I sure hope so. It's not one or the other. It's both. It's and, so back to what we said earlier, it's both and, how do we balance them? How do we, I a little bit more in truth versus grace. If people don't ever think about that, then they don't feel any tension. They're just at one end of that or the other. As we said from the beginning with any of the flexors being at the ends of this flexor are rarely the response that will get you the best long-term results.
Once we recognize a flexor or even the idea that there are flexors, the way I responded to your thing about the story with Pete is to say, "Oh, there's a flexor there, so how can we think about it in that way?" I've got 19 in the book, but what I'm really trying to do is give you a new way to think about the way we respond in a given context. Once we recognize that truth and grace are at play, we have a chance to consider the tension between them. If we've never thought about it, there's no tension because we haven't considered it.

Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Life is about tensions and paradoxes. There's a couple more things as we round out our discussion. I love when you talk about identity and basically your identity shouldn't be wrapped up in being in a certain style of leader. For me, it could be I'm a diplomat. There are others that are more of the take charge, take no prisoners. That's who I am. I'm a sort of Jack Welch kind of leader. It's not right or wrong, but just realizing your identity shouldn't be in a style of leadership. It should be how do I get the job done? How do I stay true, which you talk about later about my purpose, my principles, my values, but my identity should not be in a style of leadership." Hey, I'm the servant leadership guy. I'm the take no prisoners guy. I'm like the general commander type," so that's so important.

Kevin Eikenberry:
I'm a leader and that means that I'm trying to reach, another flexor for you, reach valuable outcomes with and through others. Both of those are my job, outcomes and others. The minute that we label ourselves, we limit ourselves, right? Because now we say, "This is where I'm supposed to be or this is what I am, and so that I don't even consider anything else." People say, "Well, I'm a truth teller." Well, if I'm a truth teller, then maybe I'm not thinking about grace very often.

Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a good point. I love, as you say towards the end, what doesn't flex your purpose, your principles, your values. There are some leaders that can be like, "I will tell you anything you want to hear. This is what I believe. Now, I don't believe it, but it will help move the organization forward, at least in the short run." Eventually people find you out and they get incredibly mad. "You lied to me about who you were. You shared some heartwarming story about growing up that never happened." It was a great story, but it was a lie or an exaggeration. I talk about how you can flex your leadership style. You can do a whole bunch of flexors, compliance versus commitment, but you start flexing your purpose, your principles and values, A, it's wrong, and B, you will fail with 100%, at least in my perspective, 100% certainty. Talk about why you don't flex those A, because it's wrong, but B, because it's also dumb to try and flex those things.

Kevin Eikenberry:
I couldn't say any better than that, right? If we go back to the tree, if the tree's not rooted, there's not even a tree. You're not a tumbleweed. Right?

Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly, so well said. Really the last thing I think you say in the book, one of the last things is you talk about how the world needs leaders and it's easy to think of what can I do? You use the metaphor of an acorn. Talk about how just that acorn philosophy, if you will, with leadership, 'cause we all can think of what difference can I make? I'm just one person. Talk about why we need to think of ourselves more as acorns.

Kevin Eikenberry:
Well, when you look at an acorn, you can say, okay, that's a seed that would plant an oak tree. One acorn, one tree. If the tree takes root and the tree grows, what are you going to get? A bunch more acorns. I often say that leadership is the highest leverage point in an organization, because we have the chance to have the greatest impact through what we do and choose, don't do and don't choose, say and don't say and all those things. If we realize that if you ask yourself how many trees are in the acorn, it's in an infinite number of oak trees inside of that acorn. We have to plant our acorn in the soil. We can't leave it sitting on the concrete.
You could listen to this whole conversation and say, "This is really good stuff, but I can't do that." It's like putting your acorn on the concrete. Nothing's going to happen. Something's only going to happen if you take action. That's my ultimate hope for me in this book is that people will say, "There's something here that I can see the world differently. I can choose some new behaviors even if they're uncomfortable, even if they're not natural, even if they're not what I thought I was supposed to do or be." When we do those things, when we take those actions, when we connect intention to action, magic can happen.

Warwick Fairfax:
Today might be somebody's worst day, they might feel it's hopeless. How can I get beyond what this day to have some life-fulfilling purpose, life of significance as we talk about a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. Talk about how some of the key principles in this book, Flexible Leadership, can get a person, get a leader beyond their worst day and really empower them to be that acorn, to be a leader that helps others. What are some of the key philosophies would help that person who maybe today is their worst day, be the person, the leader that can really help a whole bunch of other people?

Kevin Eikenberry:
I'm just going to say one thing. I'm going to speak to you as if it is a rough, hard day. As leaders, that's often true. The first part of the flexible leadership model is intention. What I would say, if you're having a hard day, if you're not sure if you can see beyond this, you're not sure leadership's what you were cut out for, you're not sure why you're doing this. Take a breath, take an hour, sleep on it. There's power in increasing response time. When we increase response time and reflect, then we can move forward with intention. When you hook that together with the realization, with the perspective that we talked about earlier, that bad things have silver linings, take the breath, take the moment, and know that you can build your confidence slowly and move in that direction.

Gary:
I am going to show my flexible leadership as the kind of the traffic cop of these episodes to say, this is a great time to end our conversation with Kevin Eikenberry.
Warwick, we just finished your interview, our interview with Kevin Eikenberry, the author of a new book called Flexible Leadership, and it was a different kind of episode for us in the sense that it wasn't about a personal crucible he's been through. It wasn't all about his perspective on crucibles, but there was a lot of information in the discussion that can be applied to any of our listeners and viewers who have gone through crucibles. What was your takeaway, your number one takeaway from our time with Kevin?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's a great question, Gary. I would say that life and leadership is about paradoxes, about both and, and contrast. One of the things he spoke about that your worst day is indeed your worst day, irrespective of the kind of crucible that you've been through, is a horrific, painful circumstance that likely, in some sense, might last your whole life. You might find a way to get beyond it, but the scars will likely remain. You might be triggered from time to time depending on what happens. Yes, it is your worst day. On the other hand, as many of our guests have said, blessing has come from their crucible. They're even thankful in some ways. How can it be your worst day, something you would never wish on another human being, but also be something that you are grateful for and there's a blessing?
Well, life is about paradoxes. Life is really one or the other. It's both and, so whether it's in life or leadership, we need to be less about the extremes, but realize life can be both and. One of the other metaphors that Kevin used was about a tree or a branch. I mean, it's pliant, it can move, but yet it's also firmly grounded. Really, this was a discussion about paradox and certainly, I would say what is the chief paradox when you think of Beyond the Crucible? It's the fact that your worst day is incredibly painful. It forever changed your life, but yet there may be a blessing or even some gratitude that comes out of your worst day. That is, I'd say, maybe the biggest paradox in what we talk about at Beyond the Crucible.

Gary:
One of the things that he talked about, and I'd never really expressed it in this way. We talk a lot have since the beginning of the podcast, the beginning of Beyond The Crucible, when it was still Crucible Leadership, we've talked about you can learn lessons from your crucible and the importance of learning lessons from your crucible, but he added in explicitly it's not just learning lessons, it's also a crucible can create new experiences for you to pursue. We certainly had guests who've talked about that, we've talked about that, talked around that, gotten to that. I've never heard it expressed from us that way. Your crucible can give you experiences that you wouldn't have otherwise had if it wasn't for the crucible. What's your reaction to that?

Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I think in my own story, I had several experiences that I had my version of truth about what my parents thought, how the company was being run and not being run well and strayed from the values and the vision of the founder. Then there was another truth by some other Fannie members that thought that things were going fine. It's easy to think that your truth is truth, but that experience taught me you see truth, I'm not really talking about absolute truth, but in terms of a version of events, you see it through your lens, but there are other lenses. That experience has really has changed the way I look at leadership as well as at life. Certainly, that experience was very painful that I went through, but it taught me what's important, which is not so much success but significance. It taught me about the value of people and just how painful it was to me.
It gave me, I think, a degree of empathy for other people's experiences and other people's stories. I wouldn't be who I am now without those experiences. I would say everybody we've ever had on the podcast, you could say it's not just the crucible, but the experiences that they went through has made them a different person. You can use those experiences as lessons to help you be a better person, help you have a calling that you never would have otherwise. Yeah, we're shaped by our genetics, but we're also shaped by the sum total of our experiences, both are true for the paradox.

Gary:
Right, and one of the things in the book that really sort of caught your attention was his talk about flexors. The yin and yang of some things. The one that he pulled out that was the most meaningful to him was between compliance and commitment. The tensions between that and how do you deal with that? He talked about how when you lean into commitment, when that's your first foot forward. Maybe, that is the path to a life of significance. Compliance, there's time for that. You guys talked about the time for that. I'll let you talk about what times for that that you mentioned in the show, but that was one of ... I mean, why did the concept of Flexors arrest your attention so much, and how in particular does this idea of compliance and commitment speak to a crucible experience in an aftermath of a crucible experience?

Warwick Fairfax:
I think very often we tend to lead or live from a certain perspective. "Hey, I'm a servant leader. I'm a go-to, get it done. Maybe military-type of leader. I'm a consensus builder." We have our favorite style. It's almost like a favorite shirt or favorite pair of shoes, and that's great, but in life, you need to be flexible, especially coming back from a crucible. I mean, things are got to be very challenging, and you need to be flexible about how you live and lead personally and professionally.
Even one of the flexors he talked about later was truth and grace, which from a faith-based perspective I'm very familiar with. More broadly, you could say, "Okay, you need to perform and if you don't buckle up, you're out of here." That can be appropriate. On the other hand, there can be times when grace is important. Maybe there things going on in somebody's life. Truth and grace, yeah, they're both important, but what do you use? It really depends on the situation. Obviously, for me, I tend to lean towards grace and forgiveness, but truth is important too. When he mentioned compliance versus commitment, yes, you want your whole team to be committed to the vision you have that in our world, we want people to lead lives of significance, lives on purpose, dedicated to serving others. Commitment's important, but at the end of the day, things have got to get done.

Gary:
Yeah. Well, and I'm going to demonstrate it right now. We didn't get time at the end of the podcast. It's in the show notes of the podcast, but Kevin has a free gift for everyone at kevineikenberry.com/gift. Go to the internet, grab that. It's a gift that's related to his book on flexible leadership. Folks, if you've enjoyed this conversation and I've enjoyed it, so I hope you have too. A couple of things we'd like to ask you to do work and one, if you're listening on your favorite podcast app, we would ask you to subscribe to the show. That way you don't miss any episodes. Life gets busy, and you can make sure they just show up every week on that podcast app.
If you're watching us on YouTube, we ask you to leave us a comment, what did you think about this episode? How have you needed to benefit? How can you benefit from flexible leadership? Leave a comment and then subscribe to our YouTube channel. Until that next time that we are together next week, remember this, we know that crucible experiences are not easy, they're difficult, but if you learn the lessons of them and if you seek the opportunities, as Kevin pointed out, it's not just lessons. There's also opportunities that come from them, and you go after those opportunities where you can end up. It's not the end of your story, it's the beginning of a new journey in your story, and that journey leads to a life of significance.
Welcome to a journey of transformation with Beyond the Crucible Assessment, unlike any other, this tool is designed to guide you from adversity to achievement. As you answer a few insightful questions, you won't just find a label like the Helper or the Individualist. Instead, you'll uncover your unique position in the journey of resilience. This assessment reveals where you stand today, the direction you should aim for, and crucially the steps to get there. It's more than an assessment. It's a road map to a life of significance. Ready? Visit BeyondTheCrucible.com, take the free assessment and start charting your course to a life of significance today.

Are you ready to move from trials to triumphs? Then join us on the journey today. Take our free Beyond the Crucible Trials-to-Triumphs Self-Assessment.

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