I don’t say a whole lot during the Beyond the Crucible podcast I cohost with Warwick.

As I explain to guests before we hit record, if he and I were a sports commentating team, he’d be the play-by-play announcer, the one with most of the insights and mic time; and I’d be the color analyst, whose job it is to make sure the audience catches and understands the important moments of action on the field.

One of the ways that plays out most often is my pointing out to listeners how the guest’s crucible experience, while its details differ greatly from Warwick’s story of losing his family’s 150-year-old media dynasty in an ultimately failed $2.25 billion takeover, nonetheless shares many emotional beats with his journey.

It’s astounding, sometimes, how a guest whose worst day was suffering through abuse or addiction or being hit with a devastating physical injury or medical diagnosis uses the exact same language Warwick does to describe how it felt to be at the bottom of the pit … and needed to muster the same resilience to get out of that pit.

Reflecting on those moments led me to think it could be helpful to offer a primer on the kinds of crucibles we’ve encountered on 164 episodes of the podcast, and the universal lessons we’ve discovered that can emanate from them.

After all, I end every show by saying a variation on the theme that your worst day doesn’t have to define you; in fact, if you learn the lessons of your crucible, that worst day can lead to your best day because it can be the fuel to carry you to a life of significance.

In broad brushstrokes, we’ve discovered crucible experiences fall into five categories:

Business Crucibles

Warwick’s crucible was a business crucible. It was on his watch that four generations of family history was lost – at least tangibly.

Guests who’ve experienced business crucibles include Hank McClarty, who by his own admission grew a bit too cocksure as a successful financial planner and wound up unemployed living in a hotel with his two boys needing to rely on the establishment’s free breakfasts to get by.

Kelly Sayre hit a similar low in business – losing a job she thought had her on track to a great career because of a boss who didn’t deal squarely with her.

Physical Crucibles

We’ve heard from many guests who’ve endured life-changing physical crucibles.

Like David Charbonnet, a Navy SEAL who was left a paraplegic after a training accident.

Or Jason Schecterle, a police officer rear-ended in his squad car at a stoplight who nearly died from the fourth-degree burns he suffered.

And Andrea Heuston, who lapsed into a weeks-long coma after an ovarian cyst burst.

Life Crucibles

Among the guests whose life crucibles knocked them down were Donte Wilburn, who turned to selling drugs as a teenager and college student and was nearly killed when a sale went bad.

Adam Vibe Gunton, whose addiction to heroin was so debilitating he begged God to take his life.

And Katie Foulkes, an Olympic rower for her native Australia whose gold-medal dreams were dashed in a very public scandal involving one of her teammates.

Emotional Crucibles

And the emotional crucibles we’ve heard about have been many and varied.

From Esther Fleece Allen, who found herself abandoned by both parents as a teenager, to Chris Singleton, whose mother was murdered in a mass church shooting.

Quiet Crucibles

Quiet crucibles are the kind to which we dedicated our eight-part series on discovering your second-act significance. These are those moments in life when you find yourself questioning “Is this all there is?” You may not have been knocked off your feet, but you definitely feel stuck in an unfulfilling place.

That’s what Robert Miller felt, a successful lawyer who had dreamed since his teens of being a musician.

Nancy Volpe Beringer, too – who found her life’s calling as a fashion designer after a successful career as a union representative that still left her feeling something was missing.

I’ve not drilled down too deeply on any of these stories, because the focus of Beyond the Crucible is never as great on what our guests have been through as it is on how they got through their tragedies and turned them into triumph. And there are definite themes in their stories in bouncing forward from their setbacks and failures that each of us can lean into when we encounter our own crucibles. Here are just three:

1. Mindset is everything.

Our guests have universally come to view their crucibles not as things that have happened to them, but things that have happened for them. The traumas and tragedies they’ve experienced, they’ve come to believe, do not define them, but have refined them. Developing that perspective, is the only way to build a ladder to climb out of the pit.

2. Don’t go it alone.

Moving beyond your crucible is a team sport. What our podcast guests have done, what Warwick stresses as so important to do, is find and lean into fellow travelers. Family, friends, colleagues, professional counselors and coaches will provide insights and strategies to help you find the strength and resilience to rise out of the pit.

3. Take the first right step, then the next right step.

Very few of our guests have gone from tragedy to triumph in a one-and-done leap. Incremental gains have been the order of their recovery. As you allow your crucible to teach you more about how you are designed, what you are off-the-charts passionate about, you can begin to set your feet on the path of what a life of significance looks like for you. If will not just lead you out of the pit, it will lead you to a life lived on purpose, dedicated to serving others.

Crucible experiences come at us wrapped in myriad circumstances. As different as they may seem from each other on the surface, underneath the way we experience them, the things we must learn and do to overcome them are surprisingly similar. In that truth there is great hope that they are not insurmountable.

Reflection:

Ready to create a life you love?

Using our worst days to help others have their best days. That’s the undergirding philosophy, the bedrock exhortation, of Beyond the Crucible. And we explore it on this week’s episode in detail so that you can turn your own trials into triumphs. We’ve discovered and keep discovering with each new guest we interview that while crucible experiences vary greatly in their circumstances, they come with many similar emotions, whether it’s a business crucible or a physical crucible, an emotional crucible or a life crucible — or even the quiet crucible marked by feeling stuck and wondering “Is This All There is?” In this episode, we explore the 3 important truths no matter the crucible. 

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. When something happens to you, whether it's setback, failure, physical, emotional, crucible, whatever it is, you can be angry and bitter and say, "This was unfair. I was an idiot. I'm a terrible person. What they did to me was so unfair," and just be wrapped in a cauldron of bitterness and anger, as we often say on Beyond the Crucible, it's like drinking poison. It just erodes your soul or you can say what happened to me, whether it's a physical emotional crucible, it wasn't fair, it wasn't right. What I did was wrong, but that's happened and there can be life altering circumstances and consequences, but how do I move forward? I think the key for many, if not, all of our guests, is just that phrase that you said so well, that it didn't happen to them, it happened for them, is how can I use this crucible that happened to me to help others?




Gary Schneeberger:

Using our worst days to help others, to have their best days? That's the undergirding philosophy, the bedrock exhortation of Beyond the Crucible and we explore it on this week's episode in detail, that you can apply to turn your own trials into trials. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Warwick and I take a tour of what we've learned ground also covered in the new blog at beyondthecrucible.com, three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us. We've discovered and keep discovering with each new guest we interview that while crucible experiences vary greatly in their circumstances, they come with many similar emotions, whether it's a business crucible or a physical crucible, an emotional crucible or a life crucible, or even the quiet crucible marked by feeling stuck and wondering, is this all there is?

And those three important truths that help you navigate your way up from and out of the pit, realizing that mindset is everything, not going it alone and taking the first right step, then the next right step. Putting those truths together are the key to being able to consider your crucible not as something that happened to you but as something that happened for you. The subject that we're talking about this week listeners, as we do from time to time, once a month, about the current blog at beyondthecrucible.com, and that blog is Three Critical Lessons All Five Crucible Types Can Teach Us. So we've got kind of three young at front side and a number and five on the backside and a number. The idea there is there are lessons that we've learned in doing this show that hold true across what we've identified in doing this show five crucible experience types.

So what we've discovered, and I'll start here with you Warwick, the fascinating thing for me in co-hosting this show with you is when this first hit me, and I don't even remember what guest it was, but there's your story of having failed in the takeover ultimately after it was successful of the family media company in 1990 at a cost of $2.25 billion, that's your crucible moment. And that ... as you've said many times, you're kind of a support group of one there, right? I mean, there's not a lot of people who've been through that. Yet, there was a guest we had and the guest said something that sounded just like something that you've said about how you had to bounce back, how you had to rediscover your identity, how you had to find your purpose and your significance.

In that moment, I as the co-host said, "Hey, listener, did you hear that? Warwick's story and our guest's story are completely different in circumstance, but listen to the emotion behind them." That really has proven true, hasn't it, as we've done guest after guest crucible after crucible, those emotions are remarkably similar, aren't they?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's very true, Gary. There's the sense of loss, whether it's physical or some other crucible, which we'll get into. The sense that who I am now is fundamentally different. The thing about crucibles, as we discovered from our survey when ... as you know, we surveyed 11,000 plus people and 72% of them said that they had an experience that was so traumatic that it fundamentally altered the course of their life. So when you have that life altering crucible, there's the before the crucible and the after. The commonalities are themes such as choice, which you talk about a lot. You can't always choose what happened to you. Sometimes what happened to you has irreversible consequences. Often in the case of a physical crucible, but you have a choice.

Are you going to let it define you as we say? Are you going to let your worst day define you, this horrendous thing that happened to you or mistake you made or are you going to somehow turn that pain, that setback for good in a way that helps others? So that sense of choice. Another thing we talk a lot about is a sense of identity. Some folks we've had on there were very defined as we'll talk more about by their profession and who they were. Then, when that changes, who am I if I'm not that former life, that former person. So it really, where's my identity? So that sense of emotion, identity, choice about not letting your crucible define you. Those are common across every crucible, every background, nationality, gender, race, circumstance.

That's the amazing thing we've discovered is there are certain emotions, choice, identity, it's true for every guest we've had. Those have all been issues.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right, and it's truly been a discovery, right? When we started doing this thing 166 episodes ago, we didn't know. I mean, we're talking about business crucibles and you had a failure and a setback and that doesn't define you. As we talked to more guests and we heard more stories, we broadened the tent under which people can come. It's not ... we have discovered that it was truly episode by episode, a discovery process of learning that even when the circumstances are different, the emotions are the same.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, it's just amazing, the commonalities, as you said before, I can feel like I'm in a self-help group of one. I mean, "Hey, I've lost two billion dollars in 150 year old family business. Anybody else? Anybody else want to put their hand up?" It's like-




Gary Schneeberger:

Crickets. It's crickets.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I can feel like, well, nobody can relate to what I went through. Truth be told, I've never really met anybody that I feel like, "Oh, you went through what I went through." I mean, maybe there are some people in family businesses, maybe a little bit the same, but I've never really met that person. Yet in chatting with the folks we have on Beyond the Crucible, there is something about the commonality of tragedy, just the sheer factor of being human identity, loss, failure, setback. How do I overcome that? That's part of what it is to be human. It just shows that we all have differences, but there's so much that unites us. There's so much that we have in common. So when you feel like they felt shame like I did, they had identity issues like I did, they had days in which they struggled to get out of bed.

Maybe they did eventually, but they had days when they were just so angry at themselves, so disappointed in themselves. It's remarkable how those emotions are pretty much identical, even though the circumstances are different. I mean it never ceases to amaze me.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right, and from what you just said, so from those emotional experiences that folks have in going through a crucible experience as they're coming out of a crucible experience, that bridges to what we're talking about in this blog, three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us. It's interesting to me, Warwick, I came upon in this blog that I wrote at beyondthecrucible.com, I came upon this idea that there are five crucible types because I went through all the guests and sort of said, "Okay, their story was this. Their story was that." I didn't have a preconceived notion of that. What was interesting about how this whole thing came to be is that a member of the team who's been with us a little less time than certainly than you did, since you founded it, and even me, been around about five years, had this idea of unpacking some of the crucible types that people go through.

When I began to do that, that's when I found ... what resonated with me as a more of a long-termer was what we've been talking about so far. People say the same ... I mean, if I say anything on this show a lot, it's "Did you hear that listener? Their emotions are the same." So it was a marriage of sort of a new perspective from the team and an older perspective from me, which is where this blog comes from. I had no preconceived notion when I went into this, how many ... we've never done this before. How many crucible types are there? I identified in going through the list of every guest that there are five types of crucibles that we have tended to focus on.

So let's run through those briefly because ... and listener, just a word of note here, we're not going to dive deeply into every ... we'll give examples of folks who fall into these categories, but we're not going to dive deeply into their stories because the purpose of what we do here isn't to wallow in the downbeat, isn't to stay in the pit. These are the crucibles that led people to the pit. What we talk about is how you get out of it, and that's going to be the three critical lessons these five types teach us. It's important to understand, especially for Beyond the Crucible, which started its lifecycle as crucible leadership. That shifted in part because we realized they weren't all business crucibles. And that's our first type of the five crucibles was business crucibles.

That grew out of, I think, Warwick, your experience. Then also, this idea that ... as you wrote a book on leadership, that perhaps focusing on leadership crucibles was going to be what we were going to do. We've discovered somewhat quickly as we move through it that business crucibles, while important are not all that we do, but business crucibles, those are those crucibles like yours, like a gentleman like Hank McLarty who we talked to, who was a hotshot financial planner. He believed in his own press. He said he drank the Hank Kool-Aid. I'll never forget that. Then, he sort of took a fall where he lost his job and he ended up in a hotel for an extended period of time with his two sons needing to live off of the free breakfasts in the hotel because that's how far he had sunk into the pit.

So those business crucibles, still important to Beyond the Crucible, not our sole focus anymore, but we still have them, and they're still very, very common among people who are listening to this show, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

With the business crucible, that sense of identity is often the searing tip of the spear, if you will, of the pain. Who am I if I'm not Hank McLarty, A-listed, successful finance guy? It just strikes at the core of who you are, because in the business world, as you are successful, you begin to believe you're on press. "Hey, I'm this hotshot executive and I can do no wrong." And everybody says, "Wow, I saw you on the front cover of Business Week and saw you on CNBC. Man, you're just incredible. You're amazing." You think, "Yeah, I kind of am."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's hard to understand praise, and the dangerous thing is you believe that, and then, your whole identity gets wrapped up in "Hey, look at me. I'm COO. I'm CEO, I'm VP." And eventually, that's going to end, either ... not everybody has to resign, but eventually you might retire, maybe your company is bought out, they're bringing new folks. One of these days you will leave that job.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's a 100% certain, that you'll be the top dog and then you're not going to be. And pretty much everybody has gone through that. You go to your country club, if you're COO or CEO, that's kind of what you do and playing with your golfing buddies and it's like, you're not the top dog anymore. It's like, "Huh, you feel bad about yourself because I'm not who I was. I'm just a regular Joe, huh." So that sense of identity, that sense of shame, if you will, it's extremely common and it is pretty dangerous to have your identity wrapped up in who you are and being the CEO or whatever in a business organization. For most people, that's normal operating procedure. It's really hard to withstand the temptation or the siren call of success. So yeah, it's a different kind of crucible but yeah, there's the financial loss, obviously, but the identity is often ... it's often harder than the actual financial loss, which can happen in business crucibles.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, and that's a good segue into the second kind of crucible that we've identified in this blog because there's an identity factor to the physical crucible that we've talked to many guests about, and those are individuals, I think of one of the first guests we talked to David Charbonnet, the Navy SEAL, who was injured in a training accident and became a paraplegic and ended his Navy SEAL career, that was his identity, that's who he was going to be. We discovered that even if your identity is not wrapped up in being an athlete ... and we have a guest coming up that we're going to talk to Janine Shepherd who went through that she was a competitive Olympic level cross-country skier for your home nation of Australia, terrible accident.

That those dreams never came through, but other dreams came through, and you'll hear more about that listener in a full show. Again, her identity a little bit wrapped up in being that athlete, and she had to learn that wasn't really at all what her identity was. There was a whole different identity for her, and she had to pursue that. So both business crucibles and these physical crucibles have at some part of their root, this idea of identity, but it's different with physical crucibles because it's an identity that ... your identity as the fifth generation heir to the family media business is unique. Being a quote-unquote able-bodied healthy, whatever that looks like for you, person, and to have that taken away through accident, trauma, injury, illness, that can really make you ... I mean, in some ways, worse than being an audience of one.

You're an audience of a lot of people who have gone through this and it's hard to know how to move next. So what did those from physical crucibles, what's your reactions ... I mean, your remembrances of the guests we've talked to who've been through physical crucibles?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I mean, so well said. So true, I mean, David Charbonnet was one of our early guests, and he and his dad were both Navy SEALs and David Charbonnet was injured, became a paraplegic in a training accident in Southern California. Understandably, his identity was all wrapped up in being a Navy SEAL, and he literally said, "Who am I? If I'm not a Navy SEAL? This is what I was born to do." His dad said, "My son is as good a Navy SEAL as is out there." And one Navy SEAL doesn't say that about another, even if it's your son, unless you feel like it's true. You just don't do things like that. I think of Michelle Quay, who was injured at about 10 years old, and her native Taiwan now, lives in California, she never grew beyond what she was at that age.

So she has to use the sort of walking sticks. When you go to the grocery store. She can't reach the top shelf. She has to ask somebody for help or maybe knock it over with one stick and hopefully catch it with the other hand. I mean, most of us don't think of going to the grocery store as this massive ordeal, which we feel embarrassment almost. She hasn't used the word shame, but just certainly embarrassment, feeling awkward, feeling like I've got to ask somebody for help for something that's so simple for 90% of people. So yeah, that sense of identity and the things that were so simple are now so hard, and having to come to terms with that and not be angry and bitter, that is not easy.




Gary Schneeberger:

No, and one of the things ... and it just popped in my head, we didn't talk about this beforehand, that's why I love these episodes because things just pop in our heads as we're talking, but one of the things, if you go back and listen to or even watch ... especially watch on YouTube, those shows involving physical crucibles, I think there's a higher percentage of guests there who watch their faces, listen to their voices. I think of Michelle when I say this, there's joy all over them. They've been through some of the most traumatic things people can go through in terms of limitations on their bodies, on their minds, on their movements, and yet there's laughter and there's joy, and there's complete comfort in that they have found their identity on the other side of that pit, getting out of that pit, they found their identity.

I think if we did the research on it, we would find physical crucible guests are the ones who are ... when they talk about what it's like on the other side of that crucible, they're filled with joy because maybe they didn't think they'd ever be able to do anything again. Ryan Campbell, the Australian ... he was a younger guy, set this record for how far he flew a plane, and then he had a plane crash and he became physically disabled. There was joy as he talked about what he's able to do now. I think there's an appreciation that comes from when you weren't able to do what you were accustomed to doing. You learn to do new things, you do get some skills back, but you learn to do new things. You find a new purpose, and that just bubbles out of these folks. That's been my experience anyway in when we've talked to them.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I mean it's very true. I think of another Australian, Stacey Copas who was injured at, somewhere around 14. She dove into a suburban Sydney above ground pool, which typically aren't deep. She was diagnosed as a quadriplegic. Now she got some movement in her hands, but it fundamentally alter the course of her life, I mean, she was an athlete in high school.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

And I don't know that she studied that hard or took life too seriously, but ever since, it's just transformed her thinking. She's a speaker, consultant in Australia, and she would ... yeah, there were moments of maybe suicidal ideation or substance abuse challenges during those early years, understandably, but she would look at that and say pretty much something like this, that she is grateful for what she went through.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

And she also was a somewhat early guest, and I remember thinking, how in the world could you possibly be grateful for what you went through? I think what she means is obviously nobody wants to go through that, but she became a different person. She became somebody that had some empathy and care for others. She really had a mission. It sort of transformed her.




Gary Schneeberger:

It is, we hope, an immense encouragement to those who listen to the show, as is the perspective of our next kind of crucible that we identified. That's the life crucibles. These are those that we group together people who life just maybe bit them, maybe they bit life. For whatever reason, there was something about their circumstances in life that knocked them off their feet, that knocked them in the pit. I think first one that came to my mind as I was writing this blog was Donte Wilburn, the young man that we spoke to who was by his own ... I mean, he came out and said it. He was a drug dealer. He learned to deal drugs when he was in high school, and he did it through college, and he discovered he wanted the cool things that the kids that he knew, that he looked up to in high school had.

He talked to one of them, "Where did you get this stuff." And the guy said, "Well, here, I'll show you," and taught him how to deal drugs. Donte's life began to spin out of control, and he ended up one night with a gun, right in the middle of his forehead, and it could have killed him. He could have been killed in a drug deal gone bad, he could have gone to jail, he could have gone to prison because of that when he got caught and he didn't. From that was birthed his life of significance. And we find over and over again, those guests who have had life crucibles, get bounced around, get knocked off their feet, things happen to them, they cause things to happen to themselves, and they end up learning lessons. We're going to talk about those lessons that'll teach you, but where they end up is at a place where they're helping other people and they're living life, "on the straight and narrow".

They circumstances that knocked them off their feet, they found a way to have those removed from their life, and they're moving forward, helping others, offering hope to others. You know who else falls in this category of life crucibles? One of the 4,872 guests from Australia, we've had on the show. Katie Folks, I think falls in this category too. The Olympic rower, who through really no fault of her own, there was a "scandal", involving a team member in the Olympics who stopped rowing. That became ... I mean, they became a byword in Australia. The prime minister went after them, but that's a life crucible of a different stripe and yet, certainly knocked her off her feet, knocked her in a hole. So, life crucibles maybe be one of the wider categories that we can get into. There's a lot of different things that you can cause or that can happen to you, that can knock you off your feet.

And Katie is an example of a story that it wasn't her ... she didn't do anything to make it happen. She just had to live with the fallout from it, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Well said. I mean, Katie Folks is a good example where she was a cox of women's eight that was in the Olympics. Katie is somebody who is a strategist. She is disciplined, she is determined, she's competitive back in the day in high school and that's from my college at Oxford at Balliol, which is a little bit more intramural. I did rowing, it was my favorite sport. So in a very small way, I can identify with Katie a little bit, but she was really good at what she did. Somehow there was a woman in the boat that had some ... I think, some challenges and had been known occasionally to stop rowing in the middle of a race, but they felt like she had this under control. It's sort of an anxiety attack, if you will. So, they might have even been in the final, I mean, they weren't like in the first heat, if you will, of the Olympics.

I think they had a pretty decent shot to medal from what Katie said. So when somebody stops rowing, I mean, you never see that. Okay, occasionally maybe you lose your roar and there's a challenge with the boat. That happens, but I don't know that that's ever happened before. So it's not Katie's fault, but yet she and her whole crew are branded as people that gave up in Australia. I mean, America takes sports seriously, but Australia takes sports as seriously as any nation on earth. So when you let down your country like that, the prime minister of Australia at the time said, these rowers were Un-Australian.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's about the worst condemnation you can possibly have.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah.




Warwick Fairfax:

Was that unfair? Sure, but I guess in the heat of the moment, the prime minister said that, so she had to bounce back from that crucible. It's not her fault, but she is one of the condemned crew, the crew of shame, if you will. She has bounced back and coaches people on resilience and strategy and has done well. Yeah, she had to both forgive maybe prime minister, the public, the media who condemned them and in some sense had to forgive that other rower. She'll probably never know quite how and why that happened, but powerful lessons of forgiveness and not letting other people's opinion of you define you, especially in this case when it wasn't her fault. There's no merit whatsoever. It's completely unfair that she should be tarnished with that same brush.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yet life isn't fair, and sometimes people will condemn you when you've done nothing wrong. That unfortunately happens.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, and that can be the shot across the bow that creates the life crucible, which is our third category of the five crucible types that we talk about in this blog, three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us. I want to say we're not getting in great depth and detail to each individual story. We're using them just as examples of the kinds of crucibles. We will do this, this just came to me. In the blog, we can hyperlink when we name these names of some of the folks we're talking about, their podcast episodes, so you can hear how that whole story goes from stem to stern, speaking of boats. The fourth category of crucible that we identified going back through our lists of 165 episodes before this one is the emotional crucible, somewhat a cousin for sure, to the life crucible, but when I think of emotional crucibles, Warwick, I think first and foremost of Esther Fleece, who was the first person we ever interviewed.

Esther is a long time friend of mine, and she found herself, she was abandoned by both parents, legally while she was still a teenager in high school. The emotions attached to that, you've said the word four or five times in this episode, shame hit her and that fueled her crucible. Another one who falls into this emotional crucible is Chris Singleton, whose mother was murdered in a mass shooting at a church. Again, nothing that he did, nothing that she, Esther, did to make this happen, but the emotions that come in the wake of that, being disowned by your parents or losing a parent, just a couple of the examples of how emotions can boil over, can take over and really knock you down into the pit.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely, Gary. So yeah, Esther Fleece is ... yeah, she's a good example of, she did nothing wrong, but as a teenager, she's abandoned by her parents. She fortunately had friends in church that took her in and she didn't let it define her, but there is a sense of shame when that happens, and you feel like as a young kid, it's inevitable, there can be a tendency to think, "Well, what did I do wrong?" That's never fair or right, and there's a sense of, "Oh, I'm different than the other kids," whether it's going to basketball games or, "Oh, my mom and dad are out there and gee, where are they? Well, they abandoned me. Oh, wow, really? I'm so sorry." And you just get into the conversation for the 83rd time and you're feeling bad, and it's hard to bounce back from something like that.

I mean, when your parents abandon you, that can just cause a searing emotional hole in your psyche and your sense of self-worth.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

It's just inevitable that ... not consciously, but psychologically, it's just, why was I not worth loving? What's wrong with me? It's just incredibly a hard thing to cope with. Chris Singleton, just ... somebody killing his mother in a church in Charleston, South Carolina just for reasons of hate. She was a person of great faith, a leader in her church in many ways. Just bouncing back from that and not letting that seething hatred, which would be very understandable, define him. Obviously, you don't condone it. You want justice to be served, but that sort of searing hatred, it can destroy your life. Chris is wise enough to know that and has found a way to not let hatred define him, but it's just not easy to bounce back from that.

You want to continue and have a normal life. Everybody wants to hear the story for the hundredth time and he's happy to tell it, but he wants ... and he used the circumstance of his mother's death to enable him to be a speaker and a writer, and really to talk about at a bigger level about bringing people together and unity. It will be easy for those two people, Esther Fleece and Chris Singleton, to be defined by those emotional crucibles, by their worst day and neither of them let those days define them.




Gary Schneeberger:

No, and as a great example of how for Esther, that's true ... here's the funny part, I've known Esther for 20 years. When I knew her, she was Esther Fleece. She's now Esther Fleece-Allen, and I defaulted to Esther Fleece, and here's where her healing has come to life, right? Abandoned by her parent, she is now a wife and mother and married to a guy named Joel Allen, and she's Esther Fleece-Allen, and her identity back to that subject, identity has been redeemed from out of the ashes of the similar kind of thing where her parents left her. She's now a parent, and it's a beautiful thing that points to the power of learning the lessons of your crucible, marching forward in those lessons and looking at a life of significance, what that looks like. Esther Fleece-Allen is a great example of that.

The final example that I've come up with of the five types of crucible experiences that we can have ... and this is an interesting one, the quiet crucible. This one we didn't think about for the longest time, and then, we did a series on second act significance. What does it look like when the first act of your life was okay, maybe even successful, but it felt like there's something missing. Is this all there is? How do you go about pursuing a second act? Can you pursue a second act? Can that be more fulfilling, more lived on purpose, dedicated to serving others? That's the quiet crucible, those, "Is this all there is" moments. A couple of ones stick out to me where it picked the one that you want to talk about. Robert Miller, who was a successful lawyer but never stopped wanting to be a rockstar, or Nancy Volpe Beringer, who as a young girl wanted to make clothes or play with making clothes, and she wasn't able to do that.

She became a union rep, did that for her whole career, but in retirement, got on Project Runway, became a fashion designer and found her calling. So there's a case of people who in their second act, even late in life, found that life of significance that you talk about so often.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's an interesting category, the quiet crucible. We delved into this quite a bit in our E-course second act significance. What we found is there are people that it wasn't necessarily a searing, devastating crucible, a mistake, a setback. It was this feeling of being stuck. Even in my own life, I talk about my cubicle moment in which in the early 2000s, I was working for an aviation services company in Maryland, and this is just kind of pre-internet, so they didn't really know who I was. Of course, I didn't really advertise it and Australia is a long way away, but after a number of years working there, I felt like I was playing small. From my faith perspective, I felt like God had given me talents, abilities, and I wasn't really using them all, getting good performance grades, but I just felt like there's more than what I'm doing and so, I left.

Yeah, that quiet crucible and Robert Miller is a great example. His family was musical. His dad I think played the trumpet. So he had these visions of playing in a rock band, but he then became a lawyer, I think it was corporate bankruptcy law in New York City. As he puts it, the problem he had was, he was too successful. He was really good at what he did. He was bringing in lots of money. Well, how do you stop that when you're doing very well and can afford a nice lifestyle for yourself and your family? Most people don't, and I'm not judging or criticizing that at all. I get it. Eventually, as the decades wore on, and I think it was close to 60, it's like, "I would really like to try that rock band," which for most people would sound insane at that time of life.

I mean, talk about the country club. Can you imagine saying to other partners in the boardroom at whatever law firm he was in, "Hey, I'm thinking about quitting and starting a rock band." It's like, "Excuse me."




Gary Schneeberger:

Right.




Warwick Fairfax:

I mean, been in an accident, what is your problem here? I mean, it just wouldn't go down too well but he did. He got a band together almost like on Craigslist, advertised with folks, and now, he has this successful jazz Latin fusion band, and he has his own podcast that's very successful, interviews a lot of musicians and talks about vision. Yeah, I mean these folks, whether it's him or Nancy Volpe Beringer, they felt like I'm doing okay. And Nancy was working for an education union in New Jersey, and it's like, yeah, I'm doing well and I'm getting paid a fair amount of money for what I'm doing because I'm making a good contribution. Both of them is like, "Is this all there is?" And if you just stay at your job, and it's not a judgment but if you feel like, "Is this all there is," you never want to be on your deathbed thinking, "I wish I would've tried this. I didn't. I left something on the table." It just gnaws away at your soul.

It's a different kind of crucible, but that gnawing away your soul of, "I could have tried this, but I didn't," that's painful in a different way, but those emotions, I don't know if they're excruciating, but they can certainly be painful, this sense of I could have tried, but I never tried. What if, what if, what if, what if. It's a terrible haunting thing to think of.




Gary Schneeberger:

So those are the five types of crucibles that we at Beyond the Crucible have interacted with, interviewed people with. We've gone through some of those ourselves. The business crucible, the physical crucible, the life crucible, the emotional crucible, and the quiet crucible. Now, here's the point in the show that's phenomenally fun because out of those five types that we just discussed, and you just heard us talk about wildly different people who were in those ... who've been through those experiences, we've discovered ... again, there's that word discovered. We've discovered as we've been doing this show that there are those universalities of how you get out of the pit. How do you move beyond your crucible. And that's the three critical lessons in this blog, three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us.

And we believe experience will bear this out from what we've found in doing this podcast, there are three critical lessons every one of these kinds of crucibles can teach us. So let's go through those one at a time. I'm going to read the whole thing as it appears in the blog, the whole description. Then, I'll ask you to talk about it Warwick. The first one is this, mindset is everything. Our guests have universally come to view their crucibles, not as things that happen to them, but as things that have happened for them. The traumas and tragedies they've experienced, they've come to believe, do not define them, but have refined them. Developing that perspective we have discovered through this show is the only way to build a ladder to climb out of the pit. What's your reaction to that?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I mean, this is profoundly true. It's sort of related to the word choice that we use a lot. When something happens to you, whether it's setback, failure, physical, emotional, crucible, whatever it is, you can be angry and bitter and say, "This was unfair. I was an idiot. I was just ... I'm a terrible person. What they did to me was so unfair," and just be wrapped in a cauldron of bitterness and anger, as we often say on Beyond the Crucible, it's like drinking poison. It just erodes your soul or you can say what happened to me, whether it's a physical emotional crucible, it wasn't fair, it wasn't right, what I did was wrong, but that's happened and there can be life altering circumstances and consequences, but how do I move forward? I think the key for many, if not, all of our guests, is just that phrase that you said so well, that it didn't happen to them, it happened for them, is how can I use this crucible that happened to me to help others?

Back to one of the first folks we discussed, David Charbonnet. He wasn't able to be a Navy SEAL anymore because he was paralyzed. He was a paraplegic, but he then as I mentioned, ran this clinic for vets in Southern California, in San Diego. So he has a mission. He can say to these other vets, I know what you're going through. I get it. You're not the same as you were. There's a sense of loss, anger, bitterness. I was there too. I can't solve all of those things, but what I can do is with this equipment, is give you maximum range of movement that is possible with the technology that exists today. That gives people some level of hope. These elite warriors, it's like, "Okay, I've got a mission here to be as functional as I can, and hopefully beyond that, to have a mission of helping others."

So mindset is everything. Mindset, in fact, in some sense, changes everything. If you just say, "Okay, what happened was awful," but the ultimate mindset shift is when you can achieve the Stacey Copas level of mindset shift and say, in some sense, I'm grateful for what happened because I would not have been the same person that I am today without that. I wish it hadn't happened, but yet in some sense, I'm grateful because it's made me a better person. It's refined my character, it's made it better in some ways.




Gary Schneeberger:

I love how this just worked out. Listen, that's how I'm going to play the last two. I'm going to ask the question. I'm going to read the statement from the blog. I'm going to throw it to you. I mean, this is your life. This is your life's work now. This is your life's legacy that we're building right here. So I'm not going to talk much more than what I'm saying right now. I'm going to read what's in the blog, point two and then I'm going to throw it to you, Warwick. Point two is this, don't go it alone. Moving beyond your crucible is a team sport, what our podcast guests have done, what Warwick stresses is so important to do is to find and lean into fellow travelers, families, friends, colleagues, professional counselors and coaches will provide insights and strategies to help you find the strength and resilience to rise out of the pit. Go.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's also so true when you're in that pit, in your worst moment, you need a friend. I think of a recent guest, Adam Vibe Gunton. He was in a very bad way, being addicted to heroin, and a lot of people tried to help him and finally, he found somebody that would just sit with him and be, didn't try and fix him, didn't try and say, "I've got these five points. Hey, maybe that substance abuse program you went through didn't work, but I've got this great one. It'll work guaranteed in five easy steps over a week, and you'll be healed forever." And just almost like a used car salesman, which it's never that easy, whether it's substance abuse or the kind of heroin addiction that Adam Vibe Gunton had. He had somebody that would just sit with him and be with him and be his friend and just listened, grieved.

That was a game changer for him to have that kind of friend that didn't judge him, but was with him in the pit and in the pain. That really helped him get out of it as he found also a mission to help others. So just having people in there with you is huge. Certainly in my own life I had ... it wasn't easy, especially in the 90s, people tried to help me, but I wasn't easy to help, but certainly for me, it really starts with my wife, Gail. We've been married, gosh, it'll be 34 years later this month. She has always been my greatest advocate and didn't judge me for the mistakes I made. Loved me unconditionally. That's a great gift that I appreciate, no end. I mean, having fellow travelers, as you try to climb out of that pit who will listen to you, won't judge you, won't try and fix you, but will be there to help you and encourage you.

And as you're saying, I'm a screw-up. I'm an awful person. It's like, "Yep, you may have made mistakes," but certainly from my faith paradigm, a helpful comment to me would be, "God loves you. Yes, there are consequences of your actions, but we're all loved unconditionally by our Creator from my perspective." Just who can encourage you and say, look, "Okay, you made some mistakes, but look, you've got a lot of strengths and there are things you can do to help others." And just that sense of not being alone and having somebody that believes in you and will encourage you, that is like rocket fuel that can absolutely increase your ability to get out of that pit and be functional and contribute to society.




Gary Schneeberger:

Point three in the three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us is this take the first right step, then the next right step. Very few of our guests have gone from tragedy to triumph in a one and done leap. This is not a time for Evil Knievel to jump over 35 buses, right? It's an incremental gains are the order of the day for recovery. As you allow your crucible to teach you more about how you are designed, what you're off the charts passionate about, you can begin to set your feet on the path of what a life of significance looks like for you. It will not just lead you out of the pit, it will lead you to a life lived on purpose, dedicated to serving others, your thoughts.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I think back to another episode in my journey in the 90s after the failure of the 2.2 billion dollars takeover, my wife is American, we moved to Annapolis, Maryland. We've been here ever since 30 years ago or so. Through the first part of the 90s, I sent out resumes. I mean, there was no work for an ex-media mogul. It's like, "I'm humble, I work harder. Sure, right? Whatever." I was unemployable. It was just ... yeah, we had some savings fortunately, but it was terrible. So eventually, I got kind of desperate as much for just having a job for my own sense of self-worth and something to do during the day that wasn't just the mind-numbing, sending out resumes and hearing crickets. So I went to a temp agency in Maryland and they said, "Well, let's test you on Microsoft Excel," because back in the day when I worked in Chase Manhattan Bank and banking after Oxford, before business school, I was actually pretty good at Excel.

I guess I must have done well. He says, "Well, you're pretty good at this. We can find you a temp job for a couple of months in Columbia, Maryland for the headquarters, the US headquarters of HEAD sports that make skis and tennis rackets and a few other things." So they needed help with some budgeting. It was sort of close to summer, but a lot of people do budgeting around August depending on your fiscal year and all. So that led to then me, getting a temp job at a local aviation services job, that became a permanent job. The point of that story is, that first step was going to that temp agency, swallow my pride and get a couple of month temp job because I was pretty good at Excel. For somebody with a Harvard MBA that feels like a lot of rungs below where I should have been.

So far below, I'm like on Mount Everest or was I on Mount Everest. I'm trying to look down through the clouds, down to sea level, and it's so far down I can't even see that far. Even a telescope probably wouldn't let me see that far. It felt that way but desperate times calls for desperate measures. Another example I can think of is Eric and Emily Orton. Eric was involved in the Wicked Production, a theater production and was doing very well. He started with a producer, another play that ended up folding and it just wiped him out financially. So he has a temporary job in the top of some Manhattan skyscraper in New York City. He's looking out on the Hudson River and he sees a sailboat and he's thinking, "I think I'd like to learn to sail."

Now, where's that going to lead? I mean, it ended up leading to taking his whole family around the Caribbean on the sailboat. Then, he has this whole business called the Awesome Factory of helping people achieve their dreams, but that first step was, I think I'd like to learn how to sail. How in the world is that going to help? I don't think he had any clue, but he felt in his gut this was the first step. Often that first step, that first right step is often the hardest step and was for Eric Orton. It was for me to swallow my pride and go to that temp agency and be willing to get just temporary job at HEAD sports. So the first step is often key, and it's often the hardest. You got to trust yourself, trust the process because it can be that first big step no matter how small that step is to getting out of the pit.




Gary Schneeberger:

And one of the great things at ... I mean, we are here at Beyond the Crucible, we're here to help people do these things, to help them understand that they need a shift in mindset. It's one of the things the podcast does, but there's blogs and other assets that we have that can help people in that regard. We're here to be someone who can help you understand, don't go it alone. We're here to encourage them to take that first step and then that next right step. You have a series right now, that's going on on social media where you talk about take the next right step, take the next right step. Here's what it looks like. It's a team sport. I think you'd agree, Warwick, we're all wearing the same uniforms for the listeners. We're on their team. We want to help them move beyond their crucible to a life of significance.

So as we wrap up here, let me just go back over. We talked about three critical lessons all five crucible types can teach us. Those three critical lessons where mindset is everything. Don't go it alone. Take the first step, then the next right step. We also unpacked five different crucible types, the business crucible, the physical crucible, the life crucible, the emotional crucible, and the quiet crucible. It's a lot of information, but here's what I hope you take out of it, and that's this, all kinds of circumstances lead to crucibles, but the emotions tend to kind of group together a little bit. That I think from my perspective, offers great hope that they're not insurmountable. The fact that we have done ... this is our 166th show, the fact that we've done that is a pretty good sign that they are not insurmountable because we keep finding people who have surmounted them, who have overcome them.

Before I get into the reflection questions that end every podcast we do that's based on a blog, Warwick, I want to ask you the question, you ask guests all the time, as the host of Beyond the Crucible, what is a message of hope on this subject, on critical lessons to learn as you go through five crucible types, what is a message of hope you want to offer to our listeners who are going through it right now, who were in the bottom of the pit or somewhere from the bottom of the pit to the top of the pit right now.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, I think listen to a number of the guests we've had on Beyond the Crucible. Listen to any guest really, or every guest, and I think you would find that your worst day doesn't have to define you. I think you would find there is hope. You can get out of the pit. As dark as it might seem, we had one guest back to Adam Vibe Gunton. He said the pit was so deep it was bottomless just when he thought it couldn't get worse, it did. So that's about as bad a pit as you can get. Every guest we've had has shown that your worst day, your worst setback, your worst mistake, the worst thing that was done to you, doesn't have to be the end of your story. There is a way out. So use, leverage the stories of these other guests and the lessons that they offer to say ... to help you understand that there is hope.

That first point about mindset is everything. Another way of putting it is your attitude is everything. If you say, look, the world is over. It was my fault what was done to me was awful, I'm giving up. Then it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you say, "This was awful. What I did was terrible, I'm not going to let this define me. I'm not going to have my identity wrapped up in the bottom of the pit and the mud and the slime forever. I'm going to maybe believe in something more than that, whether it's God or some other philosophy, your creator. I'm going to find something worthwhile in my life to contribute to others," which is what we call a life of significance, and a mindset attitude is everything. That's probably ... when you think of what's the first right step, the first right step is changing your mindset, is changing your attitude.

It's making a choice that I'm not going to hide under the covers. I won't be defined by my worst day. I will find a way to get out of this pit. I don't know how it's going to happen. If we're going to take one step, one step, one step, I'm going to have help getting there, but I will not let this defy me or defeat me. That attitude shift, that mindset shift is the key to having hope, to getting out of the bottom of the pit and the bottom of your crucible.




Gary Schneeberger:

With that kind of wisdom and hope, listener, you'd expect maybe this guy created the whole Beyond the Crucible platform, wouldn't you? That's true, and I've been in the communications business long enough, as I say all the time. I know when the last words have been spoken, and our host and creator and founder just did speak the last word. So as we always do on these podcasts about blogs, I'm going to leave you, listener with some reflection questions you can go through to apply what you've heard in this show and what you can read on the blog, which is at beyondthecrucible.com. The first question is this, of the five crucible experience types listed in this blog, in what category would you place your most challenging setback or failure, as you're looking to plot your crucible on those five crucible types that we listed, where would you put it?

Unpack a little bit, why would you put it there? Why does it feel like that's where it belongs? Second question is this. As you think about your most challenging crucible, in what ways did it happen for you, not to you? How can you use those learnings to fuel your journey beyond it? This is where a great time to jump into what Warwick encourages all the time, journaling. Write that down. Use this question too as something to start journaling about. It didn't happen to me, it happened for me. Here's why I think that, and dig in and find those lessons and apply them to getting out of the pit. Then, three, the third question is this, what's the next right step you can take on your journey to a life of significance? In some cases, it may be the first right step you have to take, but what is that step?

And then commit to taking it. Commit to doing it, right? A step thought of isn't a step, it's just an idea. A step acted on is indeed a step. What Warwick has described, what we've tried to unpack here on this show and what the blog talks about is that's the goal. Start moving. To get out of a pit, you have to start moving, start moving upward, then start moving outward. What you'll discover is what we know to be true from all the episodes of this show that your crucible experiences, like we said right here in this episode, they don't define you, they refine you. They're not the worst day of your life. They do not, it can feel like it for sure, we know that, but you have hope of moving beyond it and it becoming the best day of your life because the destination it can lead to. If you dig in, learn the lessons, take those steps, one foot in front of the other. Where you'll end up is the best destination you can hope for and that is a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond the Crucible. Visit our website beyondthecrucible.com to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start, our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

Helping people develop a right relationship with money, particularly the younger generations in families of wealth and influence, is the unique focus of the work done by this week’s guest, Kristin Keffeler. As a leading practitioner of family wealth advising called Wealth 360, she supports families of significant means in doing what she calls the “inner work” of money. It’s not just about managing portfolios, but developing a healthy life identity around the dollar signs. The ground we cover in this episode not only offers insights and action steps for families like the one Warwick was born into, but to any family that can benefit from shoring up its relationship to money and their relationships to each other.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.




Kristin Keffeler:

Money at its core is just a tool like every other tool we have access to, and yet it is such a ubiquitous force that it stands in as a proxy for a lot of human needs. It stands in as a proxyfor a lot of, not just wealthy families, but families in general or poor people in relationships where it stands in as a proxy for love or power or when there's hurt and sadness. Like the way to make it better is, I'm going to buy you a this or a that, or I'm going to take you to a nice dinner. When ultimately there's a human need that's trying to be tended to, but money becomes this thing that we use as a stand in and as a result, one of the things we don't have is really good language and understanding about our interpersonal relationship with money.




Gary Schneeberger:

Helping people solve that shortcoming, particularly for those younger generations and families of wealth and influence, is the unique focus of the work done by this week's guest, Kristin Keffeler. As a leading practitioner of family wealth advising called Wealth 360, she supports families of significant means in doing what she calls the inner work of money. It's not just about managing portfolios, but developing a healthy life identity around money. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This may be the most personal episode we've yet done from Warwick's perspective, given his history as the 5th generation heir to a multi-billion dollar media dynasty in his home nation of Australia.

The ground he and Keffeler cover here not only offers insights and action steps to families like the one Warwick was born into, but to any family that can benefit from shoring up its relationship to money and its relationships to each other. At the root of finding that health, Keffeler explains, is understanding that the formation of personal identity, separate from the numbers on a balance sheet, is an important destination for all of us to find our way to.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, Kristin, thank you so much for being here. We have on this podcast discussions with people who've every kind of crucible you can imagine, whether it's physical challenges, victims of abuse, financial failure, every background. And in most cases I can say I try to empathize with the guests, but I haven't been through that particular crucible. Here because Kristin is a consultant that advisor to families of generational wealth and the rising generation. This is something I actually, I don't know if I know something about it, I guess I do, but I've experienced it. I know this crucible. This crucible is me. It was very personal, very exciting. Somehow this book filled me with hope. The fact that I'm actually vaguely functional, which I'm probably more than vaguely functional, is like, wow, I think that's-




Gary Schneeberger:

Indeed, you are. Indeed, you are.




Warwick Fairfax:

... that's quite an achievement given my background of, listeners all know this, I'm the, I guess the 5th generation, or I guess in the technical lingo, I'm a, is it five?




Kristin Keffeler:

G5.




Warwick Fairfax:

G5, thank you. G5. Exactly. Which we can unpack, of a very large family media business in Australia. We'll unpack this, but Kristin, other than it being very personal, the thing that I came away with and I have three kids all in the rising generation, 32 year old son, 28 year old daughter, 25 year old son. They're all exactly in the kind of folks - when I say this, this is not a put down at all, but I read your book and I said, I don't know that it would be that helpful to my kids, because they don't need it.




Kristin Keffeler:

That's good.




Warwick Fairfax:

It blew me away because they're very hardworking. I don't need to tell them to work hard. They never got expensive cars. Not that we would've given it to them. Just their work ethic. They're the kind of people that you want to employ them because they get it done, they're humble, they work hard, they contribute, they have a strong faith. One quick story and then I'll let you talk here, so forgive me. But my youngest son, Ravi, who's in entry level sales in Indiana where he went to college, he had a car that we got him and he wanted a car that worked more for the Indiana brutal winters. And it's like, yeah, I found online a used Mazda CX-5 and I figured out I could get a better deal on it if I get it from this dealer in Minnesota than I could in Indiana. It blew me away that he would care that much about getting a good deal, because people from wealthy families, they don't do stuff like that. It was such a gift, not about the money but his attitude.

So anyway, I'll stop talking and just say thank you for being here and I love what you do and let's start at the conversation this way because what I love about you is that you are not just a practitioner, at least on some level you do understand what your clients go through and that is game changing, because clients feel heard. They feel seen, they feel understood. Talk a bit about why is that and how you got into coaching the next generation, a little bit about your family background that equips you or at least sparks an interest. Maybe that's a good starting point.




Kristin Keffeler:

Absolutely. When I think about where I ended up in my work today, I had no idea something like this existed, the idea of human capital or family enterprise consulting or family wealth consulting, those terms didn't even exist in my mind when I was in my undergraduate getting a degree in human biology and chemistry. And in my undergrad I was, part of the work that I was doing was really around human peak performance. There wasn't a lot of structured courses at that time around coaching and really understanding human peak performance. It was a field that was just starting to open up. But that's always where my hunger has been, is to try to understand how do we tap into the greatest depth of our strengths to create an experience that is, one, based in our ability to flourish rather than really focusing on our ability to suffer.

How deep can we suffer versus how broad can we flourish in the midst of the chaos that life is? That's my core wiring, and I really thought that I would follow a path that was, I don't know, something else. I got a master's in public health and business and ultimately spent my 20s focusing on health and productivity management at the work site, which was a perfect confluence of public health and systems thinking and behavior change and business. I was happily doing that work while in my personal life, my dad, who had always been a successful entrepreneur building businesses inside businesses, decided that he really wanted to go and do that, but take his chops and use them outside a business and actually build something that was ultimately saleable, which is what he did.

So he and my oldest brother, when I was getting ready to go to college, they were starting a business that they funded, they got some outside capital and my dad remortgaged our family home, he went to market with this idea that was right idea, right time, economic winds at their backs was the mid 90s. And ultimately by the time I was getting ready to graduate from college, they were getting ready to take the company public. So they did that. They had an IPO, they had a secondary public offering some months later. And then they ended up selling the company. And this all happened in a relatively short period of time really. And so there was these series of wealth events that for me were happening at a time that was a very tender time of moving from being an emerging adult, just trying to find my way into the world and what was I going to do for work and how did I identify myself, how did I think about earning money in my own right and really starting to think about how I was going to contribute.

And all of this was happening at this time when I was just trying to figure a lot of my own self out. And ultimately I think my identity experience through that was very different from my three older brothers, just because of the time of life that I was in versus the time of life that they were in and each of their relationship to my dad and the company and that kind of thing. That's just the backdrop to how I ended up here and in this role and the unique perspective that I bring, is really fed in part because for my 20s I spent a lot of time trying to figure out this landscape. There's both the inner landscape of the identity of experience of like, well, am I a kid from a wealthy family? How much is that me and not me? And how much is that a part of how I think about things, making decisions about what neighborhood to live in and what house to buy?

And how much is it just outside of me and really part of my parents' narrative and I have my own life to live, but there's these intersection points. And when we started having family meetings, which was something that my dad started pretty early on, where the estate attorney would come in and the financial advisor would come in, he was really trying to help us understand how things were going to be structured and what was joint and what was separate and those kinds of things. I would say meeting after meeting after meeting, I would show up ready to, okay, I'm going to get this. And I got so frustrated because so often I did not understand what we were talking about. I didn't understand the language of trust and estates. I didn't really understand financial planning and what tools you would use and the language there.

And so there was this external learning that I was missing and no one was giving. And then there was this internal experience of just trying to figure out, well, what does it mean to me? Is it good enough for me to just go get a job where I'm getting paid some salary or is that in the definition of success in my family's through my family's lens, is that good enough? And so my 20s were just a time of a lot of trying to understand and orient myself as an individual and as a part of a family that I really love and care about and my dad's story, which I'm really proud of, but it's not my story, but parts of it impact me. So trying to understand all of that ultimately is what led me to the work that I do. It was me trying to figure it out and then realizing there have got to be other rising gen. We didn't use that term back then. That's more my new vernacular.

But there have to be other next gen family members who are as committed to understanding how to do this well, how to engage with this effectively as I am. And there's got to be a way to shorten this learning curve about both the identity piece and also just the nuts and bolts of what do you need to know to actually be a decision maker in this space. I feel super fortunate that today where the work I get to do is something I feel very skilled at. I feel like I bring some real, a powerful set of tools around human peak performance and family systems and positive psychology to really help my client families, and then I also get to bring this personal experience to the table. So in that I feel like it's a really safe space for individuals and families to be real about the parts of being in a significant family that are difficult.

From the outside it looks like it should all just be easy. You have money, you have privilege, you have status in your community, what are you complaining about? And there's a lot of nuance packed into that, that I think needs a little bit of fresh air around it.




Warwick Fairfax:

So well said. I want to unpack here in a bit just some of the elements in your book and just some of the things that you do with your clients. But before we go there, it just sounded like you didn't grow up with multi-generational wealth when you were younger. Your dad became successful as you were in college or just before. But there was one interesting incident, I think you got an academic scholarship to go to college. Your dad was very proud. I'm sure your parents were proud. They said, well, money, I'm saving on that. How about I get you a car? And you got a black sports car. But yet it felt like that was the first taste of a bit of confusion and feeling conflicted. Talk about that almost first taste of this whole new wealth experience was confusing and conflicting a bit. So talk about the story and why it felt a bit confusing and conflicting.




Kristin Keffeler:

For sure. That was definitely a very momentous gift, because it triggered a lot of things that I didn't understand really for years to come. And I'll say, well, the more significant wealth events that happened in their wealth story happened later. My dad had always been a C-level executive. He was a high earner. My narrative around money growing up was, I honestly just didn't think of it at all. It was a non thing to me. I didn't worry about it. I didn't grasp for it. It was just like there was always more than enough. I didn't think about that. But I was also the youngest, and so by the time I was getting to that stage of life where I was in the story of the car, my dad was a very significant earner. And so in that, one of the things as you said, and the stories in my book, he had said to me like, hey, you got this scholarship. I'd like to buy you a car. I was like, sweet.

And so we started shopping and I got this black sports car, this new car smell, got the really awesome radio, had this moonroof, sunroof thing. Everything about it was just like, it was just a hot car for an 18-year-old. And I'm not even a car person. I wasn't a car person then, but I can still viscerally feel what it felt like to get behind that tight little wheel and this little stick shift. And then when I went to go drive to school, it was in the last couple weeks of my senior year, I had this moment where I was like, the student parking lot, there's a bunch of trashy cars in the student parking lot, but we weren't allowed to park in the teacher parking lot. And I decided it's a safer place for me to go take this new car. So I drove to the teacher parking lot and then I had this incredibly sinking feeling when I looked around the parking lot and I was like, this is one of the nicest cars in the teacher's parking lot.

And I slunk into school, and then really spent a lot of time in those last couple weeks at school feeling very uncomfortable. And it was only upon reflection now with the wiser mind that I have today that I realized that I was feeling a sense of shame, but I couldn't figure out what the shame was for. It was like I knew I hadn't done anything wrong, but I felt a little wrong. I felt like I don't want anyone to know about this. And yet I felt the joy of the gift my dad had given me. I could feel that from him. But I also worried about the projection of my classmates and the teachers at my school, the administrators at my school, about what it meant about me that I was now driving this black sports car to school. And it really was, it took years for me to really understand what that car meant in terms of this tussle. It was very representative of a tussle inside me.




Warwick Fairfax:

I want to broaden this out a bit in terms of, and that's a good segue into your book, The Myth of the Silver Spoon. I love that title because it's this idea that most people who don't have multi-generational wealth, whether it's multi-millionaires or billionaires to think, oh, it's all gravy, it's all Disneyland, there's no worries. Getting a job is not an issue. The family will pay you or you'll have a job in some nonprofit foundation and if the business is big enough, there's got to be some corner of the empire where you can work and just have your own little place in the sun. It sounds like very idyllic, the boats, the cars, the vacations, go to the south of France or wherever your favorite place is to go. I guess one of the reasons that was fascinating is this podcast is called Beyond the Crucible. And this is a crucible we've never really spoken about, at least other than my own personal story, but not more broadly.

You're obviously a subject matter expert, not just because of your own life, but just as if not more importantly, just the body of knowledge, thought knowledge you bring to bear in your studies and research. So talk about just overall why there's this myth of the silver spoon and why certainly for that rising generations, 20 somethings, early 30s, why having wealth can often maybe mostly but very often be a crucible. Why can money be a crucible, especially for young people of multi-generation wealth?




Kristin Keffeler:

I think to bind my way into answering that question, the place to start I think is actually broadening the lens. Because one of the reasons, well, first of all, I feel like it's really important to say that I have never had a single rising gen client either in one of my client families or someone that I'm coaching individually who doesn't recognize the power of their privilege. Any one of them would cringe at the idea that I might be painting them as poor little rich girl or poor little rich boy, look how hard this is. I want to be really clear that every one of them recognizes that they were born on third base. They have this sense of, yeah, I've been given so much, which is why it's even more painful to them when they feel like, and I cannot figure out my life. Why am I so stuck?

And I think that there's a lot of factors that create that circumstance. But one of the ones I think is really interesting and broadly applicable, is that we culturally have a very conflicted relationship with money. And we definitely have a conflicted relationship with wealth. So money being like, I think about money as the more tangible transactional, it's human scale, money's more human scale. You can buy coffee with it and go to the grocery store with it, and wealth is an abstraction. It's like big numbers on a page that it's goes up, it goes down, you have this sense, but it's like it really is an abstract concept. It's not a tangible daily concept. We collectively across the economic continuum have a very subconscious conflicted relationship with money and with wealth.

And there's lots of roots that we could go into and look at historically and sociologically, why and how. But really I think, where we are today is, there is a tussle where money at its core is just a tool like every other tool we have access to. And yet it is such a ubiquitous force that it stands in as a proxy for a lot of human needs. It stands in as a proxy in a lot of not just wealthy families, but families in general or poor people in relationships where it stands in as a proxy for love or power or when there's hurt and sadness, the way to make it better is of this, I'm going to buy you a this or a that, or I'm going to take you to a nice dinner. When ultimately there's a human need that's trying to be tended to, but money becomes this thing that we use as a stand-in.

And as a result, one of the things we don't have is really good language and understanding about our interpersonal relationship with money. What's our money story? How does it play out? How do you feel? If you had to describe money as a friend, what kind of friend would it be to you? Is it the kind of friend you would actually pick to hang out with and you think is like, no, that one's got my back. Or is it a little fickle and a little fleeting? I think that's the broader lens around this, is that we have a difficult relationship with money collectively. And then as it relates to wealth and people who hold wealth, we have this binary way of thinking about it where through one, both a sense of envy, like, must be nice. I would like that. And then also this sense of disdain or resentment, like, we paint a broad brush of wealthy people are whatever, fill in the blank.

It's something generally not good. And I think that because of that teeter-totter of envy and disdain and particularly disdain, in our culture, generally in a capitalistic culture, we will hold up wealth creators because those are people who are doing something, even if we have a little curiosity or disdain about how they're doing it and whether it's based in goodness. But we will hold up wealth creators, but wealth inheritors are quickly discounted. What I think is really interesting is they're just born into a circumstance that just is what they were born into. You have the lived experience of that. It's not a choice. And it doesn't mean that it's something that they should say, well, I want none of that. But it also means that as an inheritor, as a rising gen, you're absorbing the projections of the culture around you.

And I find that very often those inheritors internalize the message that somehow I'm not good enough. And then you add to that what it is like to be raised in the shadow of a big thinking wealth creator. Someone who's doing, whether it's a father or a mother or grandfather or grandmother or wherever it is in the family lineage, there's somebody who has done something that few people are able to do. That Midas touch, the alchemy of turning lead into gold and really creating something significant from that. And try to find your own bar of success, when the bar for success that you can touch you can see is so high that it's like, well, sort of my story of like, I don't know, is it good enough just to go get a job making a salary? I'm looking at people in my family, my dad, my brother who just went and took the company public.

I'm never going to earn wealth that working in a public health job. I think that, you add what society's projections are onto what can be a very complex family circumstance to try to find your own voice and your own path. And in the midst of that, there's all these things that are joint assets. So where if somebody, typically an emerging adult might just go take space from their family and differentiate and find their own identity, when you have a family where there's commonly held assets and you have to come back together to make decisions or you're working with a trustee, there's all this binding back to the mothership that makes it really difficult to do the important work of differentiation. I'll pause, because there are many other factors that create a uniquely pressure-filled circumstance.

And one of the things that I really intended to do in the book is to open up the windows and let some air into some of that, because from the outside it looks like someone raised in that situation should have everything they want and need. And they do generally have everything that they need, but oftentimes that inner stuff isn't being tended to. And their sense of self and identity and deep close friendships, all of that feels more difficult to come by. There's not a lot of safe places for kids raised in this situation to actually acknowledge that they have some wounds as well.




Warwick Fairfax:

So well said Kristin, and it is going to be a little different because I guess as best I can help illustrate what you are saying and prove your thesis is true. Everything you said makes sense. I remember something my grandmother said is, something like being born in this wealthy Fairfax family, it's like having dessert. And so you have really a duty to service to the community. So in my case, which made it, and listeners are obviously familiar with this, but that made it particularly challenging, is that this large family media business, which by the time I was around, had newspapers, TV, radio, magazines had the equivalent in Australia of the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, the major opinion leaders. What made it particularly challenging, it wasn't just about the money, the influence that we had on the society was large.

It wasn't just about making money, it was like you have a duty to the nation of Australia. That's what this is about. Not so much the money. And so the pressure wasn't just to preserve family wealth. It's like, well, how do I play my part in helping my country, if you will? We had independent newspapers that didn't promote one party or the others. My dad was probably moderately conservative, but the articles would attack politicians. It didn't matter what party. It was truly an independent paper, and it always has been. So all that is to say is, the person with the business skills was my great-great-grandfather, five generations before. And by the time I came around, most of my family are more, I don't know, journalists types, the business genes had long since died out.

So there was this sense of who am I without being a Fairfax? And in my case, you had three knighthoods in a row, which is exceptionally rare, and they're all earned on their own, right? There wasn't inherited. So my dad had the same name as me, he was Sir Warwick Fairfax, and then there was Sir James Oswald, and before him Sir James Redding. And then I moved to America, so I didn't really do much to accomplish that. So I'm not a knighthood. They don't have knighthoods anymore in Australia, it's considered a bit too royalist and they don't allow that anymore, which is fine. But just the sense of, gosh, I've got three knighthoods in a row, and how am I going to live up to my father, who was a great man, had his flaws. I loved him very dearly and admired him greatly, how to live up to his, he was, again, more of a journalist philosopher, if you will, but was highly intelligent person, wrote books on, I don't know, comparative religion.

He was a fascinating guy. That was the pressure. So in terms of as you're talking about money, I saw how my dad was married three times, my mother twice. I saw how money could be very damaging. We'd have parties of prime ministers and presidents and Hollywood people, and there seemed a lot of fake people. So to me, I'm a person of strong faith, and in the Bible it says, "Money is a root of all evil." I got to tell you, in my Bible, metaphorically, it says it is the root of all evil. That's not biblically accurate, but for me I just saw money as something that destroys and damages. So that was my relationship with money. I'm not a sackcloth and ashes kind of person. You have no right to your own life, you've got to fight the good cause, prepare yourself.

So if this was a biblical parable, I wasn't the prodigal son, I was the good son that stayed home. So I did my undergrad at Oxford like some other relatives. Worked on Wall Street, got my MBA at Harvard Business School. I was one of these people, I'm going to show them I'm not some dilatant, wasteful. I'm going to work hard. I'm going to be different than some in my family. So yeah, maybe a bit of a chip on my shoulder. I always wanted to prove myself to myself. I don't know if I'm a classic case, but I'll pause here, but I think I fit a lot of the paradigms that you're going through. The saving grace for me. We've lived in, my wife's American who grew in more of a normal background. Her dad was an oral surgeon, which oral surgeons make decent money, but not at the level that my family did.

But fortunately the name Fairfax, in terms of the Australian media thing, I think it means nothing here in America, which I love. I can be my own person. But all that's to say is a lot of what you're talking about is really true. It's just trying to find your sense of identity and who are you, and apart from the family business, it's real. So anyway, I don't know if any of that makes sense. I don't know if that fits your paradigm, fortunately or unfortunately. Any comments or reflections on that?




Kristin Keffeler:

I think what you're naming is, it's the story arc for so many, right? You have lived to tell the tale on the other side of some really, yeah, talk about crucible, right? You have lived and the work that you're doing now is so meaningful because it invites people to, one, recognize the depth of their resilience, and two, think about the value of their lives beyond whatever feels like that defining moment, the worst moment, your story arc is so common in the places I work. And ultimately, you're even talking about, I was talking about the importance of differentiation, that's a key developmental milestone, usually happens sometimes in ones like late teens and early 20s. That's an important time to find yourself separate from your family. You had to move all the way to the US decades later to find that, right? And to find the space where Fairfax didn't mean something, where somebody wasn't projecting something onto you or holding onto your story that was like, wow, can I live beyond that?

I was really struck by what you said about money being the root of all evil. And I feel like my feeling is that our ill-formed relationship with money is how it can become the root of evil. But when we actually have a really healthy relationship with it, which takes a lot of awareness and a lot of work, money is an incredible lever. It's one of the, honestly, the core, when I think about purpose in my work, there's two reasons that I do the work I do in the market that I work in. And one is that I feel that human thriving is for all people. Right? So cross an economic demographic and I could have chosen any place on that continuum to work. This happens to be the place because of my own story that I have found myself. And secondly, I believe so strongly in the power of concentrated capital as a lever.

And we can use that, there's governmental agencies and nonprofits and there's lots of ways that capital can become concentrated for use. But I have not seen any agency work as fast and as effectively as an individual when there's a need. So an individual or a family. Think about what happened during the pandemic and how quickly the Gates Foundation and many, many other wealthy individuals were figuring out how to get testing out and get support out into their communities. And they were able to do that very quickly. I won't take us too far off, I'll step off my soapbox, but I do think that money is an incredible lever, but it's our ability to be in right relationship with it that allows it to be such.




Gary Schneeberger:

And let me jump in at this moment, because I'm the guy who's a little bit on the outskirts of this conversation. I'm the son of a beat cop, and he didn't make a whole lot of money. He did, however, he lived long, he lived to be 93, so he worked 27 years and lived off his pension for 36. So he got that part of it, he leveraged that part of it right. But one thing I want to make sure listeners understand as we're talking even about families like Warwick's, families like the people that Kristin works with, what you're talking about, about money being a powerful lever, that goes across the spectrum of whatever amount of money you make. You describe on your website, the work that you do is real, messy, powerful, clarifying and momentum inducing.

And I think you would say, and correct me if I'm wrong, that that is for people who are in that high leverage wealth and people who are just going day by day trying to make it. Those are true adjectives for money in any context or at any level of accumulation. Aren't they?




Kristin Keffeler:

Absolutely, Gary. I think that our path to personal freedom with wealth or with money is, wherever you're at on that continuum, you have to do the work to find the peace and the joy of operating with money. So often there's a tussle. I know that I lived it in my version of it in my 20s, and we don't have the time for me to go into the story around that, but I was not getting money from my parents in my 20s. That was not part of their plan. I obviously had a backstop if I needed it, but they were like, no, you go make your life happen. Which is what I was doing. And when I decided that I wanted to leave my good W2 paying job and go follow this dream of getting to work with enterprising families and rising gen, I spent many, many months not earning.

In that time I found that I had a really tense relationship with money. I was trying to control it at every, I had a death grip on my savings account, and I wasn't trusting, I wasn't spending money based on my values. I wasn't allowing there to be celebration of what came in, even when it was like I wanted it to be this big and it was this big. I wasn't allowing myself to really actually experience the joy of the currency, money in motion. And ultimately it was that getting to the place of deciding that I was not going to live in pain around money anymore, is where the breakthrough for me was. And it was like, it didn't matter that there was less and less and less in my savings account every single month at that point.

I had created a specific ritual for how I was going to spend in alignment with my values. I was going to celebrate everything that came in and I was going to keep working hard and intelligently to make this dream happen. And I think we all have that. I don't want to discount the people who are truly scraping it by day-to-day. And I still think that there is room for that inner work that is messy and takes you down to your knees at times, but the ability to move into a place of flow comes from moving through that and into something more empowered.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's so well said. I think as you talk about in your book, you've got to do the inner work to do the outer work. For you to be a contributing member of society from a wealthy background and be able to give, as you mentioned that Gates family did in the pandemic too, but do those sorts of things. If you don't have a foundation with the inner work, that tends not to happen. And certainly I found that in my case. I want to talk a bit about, obviously with the rising generation, just the whole identity is a huge issue, finding your place in the world and certainly was for me, what helped is going to Oxford in England, nobody knew much about Australia, and they almost joked about, okay, so you're a wealthy family in Australia. Some of the more pompous people would say, well, we think of Australians like convicts.

So in terms of the social hierarchy, you've got the upper class, the middle class, lower class, and then convicts and Australians. Okay, so you're a wealthy convict. Oh great, who cares? I actually loved that. That was a badge of honor, but a whole other story. Worked on Wall Street, Harvard Business School. So all of those things enabled me to prove myself to myself, so that it gave me little drops of confidence that I could work hard and achieve things. And for me, the bigger issue wasn't so much about the money, although it was, as listeners know, after the $2 billion takeover after my dad died to restore the company to the ideals of the founder, that having failed, it was more me being responsible for 150 year old family company going out of the family. That was really the dagger in the heart that I had to deal with.

Money is not the motivator. But I began to see, look, I don't have to achieve what John Fairfax my great-great-grandfather did. I can form my own path because I'm a person of faith. I believe God loves us all unconditionally, be we rich, poor, or what have you. I find my own path to contribution, and now I have a much healthier attitude to money. But it took years to get there. I started off, I'd drive into the executive parking lot at John Fairfax Ltd, that had their Daimlers and Mercedes. I had my red Toyota Camry. That was the badge of honor. I wasn't going to have the fancy car. I was inverse snobbery, if you will. But gradually from there, the years went by, I got a Volvo and that I was a little cringing about that. And then I said, okay, I think I can handle an Audi, which I drive now.

It's not right or wrong, but you speak to me 30 years ago, I still wouldn't buy a Rolls or Ferrari. I'm not judging, that would be a step too far for me, rightly or wrongly. So now I have a better attitude to money, but I'll pause from my story and just talk about how you connect the inner work to the outer work, how you work with the rising generation. You've got many case studies in your book, to have a proper sense of identity and self-worth so that they can begin to be contributing members of society either through some foundation, through their own work, and how you make that change, because it's clearly not easy. Every family has its own challenges and dysfunctions and attitudes about money and control.

What are some of the principles you use to change the inner work or the inner game so that they can be contributing members of society and use that wealth for positive purposes?




Kristin Keffeler:

It's such a big question.




Warwick Fairfax:

Sorry.




Kristin Keffeler:

We could do a day long course in that. A couple pieces that are maybe important way points to talk about in this is that, one, the formation of individual identity is so fundamentally important for all people, particularly the 20s are a really important age generally, where people build a lot of identity capital. And identity capital is like the experiences and it's the barista job, and the I worked in the mail room and all the things that one does to help them get a sense of what they like and don't like. Who are they? And if everybody in my family was a doctor, but I decided to go, I don't know, pursue painting, how does it feel to be an outgroup of the family? And can I find my voice and myself in that? And that is all about pushing on the edges of one's own bubble of self. How much is me and how much is my family?

And how do I define myself and how can I be both in relationship with my family and still stand as an individual? All people need to do that. That's not an affluent family thing or an affluent individual thing. But the thing that wealth and a significant family name can do, is start to create more noise in that system when you're trying to find your identity. And so things that often happen, I often will hear family members say, particularly if they have a last name that's on a building, the name of a company in their community, and they will say, I want to move as far away as I can. I want to go someplace where no one knows what a X, Y, Z family member. They don't know that name. It means nothing to them. So I can just be me.

And that I think is actually a really healthy part of identity formation, particularly if then one can come back and hold their own in the midst of the bigness of their name. I think one waypoint is this recognition that the formation of self, of identity capital is so important. And then second is to recognize that wealth and a significant family name can create noise in that system. So then third is ultimately in the book, what I did was take what I do in my coaching work and try to define it in a way that someone could work through a process on their own, so that they could actually do some of this without needing to be on a phone call with me or someone like me. And so I won't go through, there's seven steps in this process because part is inner work and part is outer work, meaning the inner work is the who am I? What's the mindset I have?

The outer work is what behaviors do I have and how do they align with who I am on the inside? So what I will say though is that without going through all seven steps, is that really recognizing the impact of mindset. So mindset is, it's like the big filter. If I think that the world thinks that I'm not worthy, that's a mindset that I'm taking every piece of data from the world into me through this filter of unworthy. So you have to be very clear about what mindset you want to cultivate and be vigilant in continuing to own that mindset, work through. Sometimes it's like because you have to shift into like, no, I am worthy. I am worthy because I'm a human. I am loved by God. I have a place on this earth. And so how can I use a mindset of worthiness, then align my beliefs with that?

And then ultimately it's getting really clear step by step of creating that alignment from the inside out. And then your actions need to align with who you are being. So if you are someone who is worthy, then one of the ways that rising gen, and this will be my last point on this. Just an example of what it means to take that inner work and externalize it, is I will often talk to rising gen who say things like, I shouldn't go take that job because I don't actually need the money, but somebody else does. I appreciate the heart in that, and one of the things that I want them to understand is, is that coming from a place of unworthiness? I'm not worthy. I don't want to put myself out there in a position where I'm going to have to get paid and get judged by my actions at work.

What is that really coming from? And you have to understand where the root of that is before you understand whether that action is a right action or a misaligned action.




Warwick Fairfax:

What you say makes so much sense. As I think about really one of the things in the book that really struck a chord, everything did, but in particular the whole sense of identity. And as a rising generation, 20 something, early 30s, when this whole takeover thing happened, I was 26. I was right in the middle of that. And yes, I'd achieved some things. Yes, legacy probably played some role with Oxford, but I got good grades and you had to pass a competitive exam. And I did well at my college, at Oxford and Harvard MBA, the family helped that much there. I was able to prove myself to myself. But for many, this is conflicting seas of identity. Some may, as you write in the book, over identify, and I have family members who are like that. It's like, I'm a Fairfax, which means a lot in Sydney.

For me, I was at the other end of the spectrum. It's like, that doesn't mean I'm better or worse than anybody else. I don't want my identity to be wrapped up in that. So I fought that a bit. But just trying to find self-worth outside of your name, not feeling worthless because you're a Fairfax or Rockefeller or not feeling like you're better than every human on the planet. Both extremes are not psychologically helpful or healthy. But just finding ways to, as you say very well in the book, to clear that inner clutter, find a sense of self-worth from within. Or I guess from my perspective, I believe, we're all children of God and loved by God unconditionally. We all have inherent value and worth. That was the core of my finding meaning and purpose. And then beginning to find things I could do well to help others.

So again, I don't want to make it all about my story here, but for me, one can analogize it for others, being an elder at my local evangelical church for many years and before on my kids school board for a long time. The pastor of my church in Annapolis asked me to give a 10-minute sum illustration on what I went through and what I felt like I'd learned. And amazingly so many people weeks and months after said, well, Warwick, your story really helped me. And I'm like, how many other former media moguls or rising generation, people of wealth, Annapolis is a reasonably okay place, but no, it was a cross section of society. So that floored me. If somehow what I went through could help others and my own crucible, that motivated me. So it took a number of years to write the book and what I do now with Beyond the Crucible, and it's very motivating, it's very uplifting.

Because I feel like I'm using who I am and my story to help others, and in its own way it can be healing. That's not a prescription for every rising generation person, but there's a metaphor, if you will, that understanding who you are separate than wealth and position and finding a way to contribute. And then money, we try to give generously, if not very generously, to things that we believe in. We try to be responsible for what we have. But that inner work is so critical, especially in your 20s, early 30s, figuring out who you are. Everybody has different baggage depending on the family they grow up in. But I guess as we maybe, I don't know if we're quite ready to begin to land the plane, but we're at least on the other side of the halfway line.

For young people, maybe there's a rising generation person, and maybe they're not multimillionaires, but even if you had a mom or dad who has an accounting firm, a law firm or their doctors, there's still pressures at a different levels. Who am I other than I'm the son or daughter of so-and-so who's well known in my community? You don't have to be multimillionaires to have this pressure. What would some helpful thoughts about finding out who your identity and making that contribution? I think we understand the challenges, what's ways to sort out the challenges? I realize that's another big mega question, but if there's a summary version of how you deal with some of that stuff.




Kristin Keffeler:

One of the best ways that I know to start to really understand who you are, is to have the courage to try things. You figure out what works and what doesn't work for you. One of the things that is, and the research that I did that shows up in the book, and it was when I did my master's work at the University of Pennsylvania in applied positive psychology, the research project I did was to study exemplar rising generation family members. So rising gen were at the top end of development. And I wanted to understand if there were specific character traits and skills that they maybe had in common that helped them get to the place where they could say that they were thriving and that they had lives of meaning and purpose. And one of the things that was common in those interviewees was a growth mindset.

So growth mindset being the ability to recognize that your intelligence is malleable, your grit is malleable. We have the ability to grow and learn and that we don't have a fixed amount of anything. So people who have a fixed mindset get very stuck in not wanting to try. They don't want to do something where they might be shown a fool. Well, I'm not going to get too far over skis because if I accidentally shoot too high and try to grab for something that's way up here and I fail, everybody's going to know I'm a fool. Where somebody that has a growth mindset will do that exact same thing. And if they stumble and fall, they'll go, wow, what did I learn from that? All right, what do I need to take from that to move into this next thing?

There's less fear around just trying things out and it being okay if turns out engineering wasn't your thing, all right, let's pivot. How do you take what you learned from what did work about that field and apply it to architecture? Right? There's a lot to be said for the courage to try, is a huge part of being able to form a strong connected identity. And that is in part, the individual's work. Each individual has to have that courage and parenting can really help provide a leg up. If there is a safe environment where when you're sitting around the dinner table everybody shares both a win and a challenge of the day, and it becomes normalized that difficult things happen to all of us, and we can do hard things. We as a family have a culture that we are capable of taking on difficult things.

Then kids internalize that and they become better at taking risks and saying like, okay, I'm going to try this out. I have a safe base. If I skin my knees, I have some place to go home and be tended to before I go back out into the world. And that to me I think is a core thing that's both individual and family culture that allows for kids across the economic demographic to figure out, who am I?




Warwick Fairfax:

Just one of the things you just said here was so important, is we've talked a lot about the rising generation and we've talked a lot about what you can do to find your own identity, find some meaningful work that has purpose, begin to get self-confidence, realize your sense of self-worth is not wrapped up in your family, it should be wrapped up in something external. All very good points. But I think what you write in the book in maybe one of the later chapters, maybe throughout, is just the role of parents. Parents of rising generation, especially like I was somewhat fortunate, despite all of the somewhat level of dysfunction in my family, is by the 5th generation, my father got up in a wealthy family. So both my parents were cognizant of not wanting to spoil me. So they went in with, they weren't perfect.

I'm not perfect either, but they didn't lavish expensive things on me. That wasn't going to happen. With my first car I got this little Renault 5, which was a small car back in the late 70s, early 80s in Europe, because I was going to Oxford. I got half of that out of my own money for a part-time job I had. Well, that was really smart the way they organized that. It meant tremendous pride in being able to pay for half of that little car myself. So where I'm going with this is, with parents, it's just so important for parents not to give their kids too much, to have a sense of work ethic, but a lot of people have work ethic in wealthy families, at least the people who make it. But a sense of humility, a sense of values.

You write about this in the book. What are the values that we want to, I don't know, not transfer to our kids, but what do we stand for, my wife and I have tried to do that in our own family and just by modeling certain behaviors. One of the values that we had is I wanted to be around my kids games. I wasn't going to be this absentee father the way some are. Every birthday when we, listeners have heard this story a million times, when we go around the table saying, what do we most admire about whoever birthday it is. It's just we've done that for a lot of years. My boys who are more athletic and picked up my wife genes, she's more athletic. Every single card they write, they say, dad you were at my tennis game, at my basketball.

Every single birthday for, I can't tell you how many years. I guess that admonition is, I know if you're very successful, you're probably really busy. You got to be there for your kids activities, because that matters. So anyway, I guess I've given a little mini sermon there, so forgive me. But I guess, do you have a few words for parents out there of the rising generation of just things that they can do to at least make the rising generations easier at life? So much easier than it could be?




Kristin Keffeler:

Well, you said it a little bit and in some ways don't make it easier. There's a difference between, I think one of the things that is an important distinction, and this isn't just for super affluent people, this is for people who just have more than they need to get by, financially speaking, that when we as parents, our best bet with our kids is to be thoughtful about what it is we're actually trying to parent for. Because money can be a buffer. It can solve a lot of problems, and it can solve problems that make our lives easier, right? Oh my gosh, my kid forgot his cleats at the field again. You know what? We're going to buy them two pairs now and stick them in the closet, that makes my life easier. I can buy those really quick rather than say, no, we're getting in the car and you're going to go down to the field and you're going to walk back and forth until you find your shoes. Right?

There is a way that parenting, when you're thoughtful about parenting based on values, who are we? Right? The value you named was that you really wanted to be present for your kids. That there was a sense of, nope, it's not just that they are appendages in my family, but I'm off doing this other thing. But no, I want to be actively a part of their lives. That's the most effective way to transmit values, is to live them. Our kids pay attention to what we do, not what we say. And being aware that money is something that can create a buffering effect, so you have to be even more thoughtful about what it is you're trying to parent for. If you want kids that are gritty, and if you want kids that have a growth mindset, then being really thoughtful about how and when do you use the resource you have because you can. And when do you be really clear that you're not going to do that? Right?

Your kids will know that you can. It's even tougher to be, I think we have to, it's where you have to be really clean in your relationship with money to be able to say, you know what, honey, I know that I can buy you those cleats. And the truth is, I think it's more important that you really understand the value of taking care of your things. So we are going to take the time together to drive back over to the field and I'll help you look, but we're going to find those cleats, right? There's a distinction there that kids understand. It's like, yeah, I could do that, but I'm not going to because there's something else that is more important.




Gary Schneeberger:

So Warwick, do you have another question or another direction that you want to take things? Because I have an idea.




Warwick Fairfax:

You go right ahead. You go right ahead.




Gary Schneeberger:

All right. I have finally figured out what my role is in this conversation, and that is this, my role is to be the applecart upseter. Okay? That's my role in this conversation. So I'm not going to take this time before the captain turns on the fasten seat belt sign. I'm not going to take this time to ask our guest a question. I'm going to take this time to ask our guest to ask our host a question. Because we rarely get this opportunity, where we have a guest, in all seriousness, who has expertise in your crucible, in the beats of your crucible. So I'll ask you, Kristin, is there something about Warwick's background story, what he's been through, many times in his conversation you've said you, you've found this in your research. Is there anything about his story, his journey that you're curious about as an expert in this field?




Kristin Keffeler:

Yeah. I'm curious Warwick, of all the many, many lessons that you've learned through your crucible experience, what is the most valuable one that you would most want your kids to internalize?




Warwick Fairfax:

Boy, that's a great question. I guess my most important value is my faith. My faith in Christ, so to speak. They all have a strong faith. Basically that we have self-worth as human beings, whether you're rich or poor or whatever background, every human has equal value. Being wealthy doesn't mean you're better than other people. It also doesn't mean you're worse. We are all of inherent value. I think most major religions I believe have some version of that. That would probably be foundational. And we are put on this earth for a meaning and purpose. Part of the core of life is to find your own meaning and purpose. One of the things I learnt in very heavily amongst other things, I'm a certified executive coach and I have opinions on a lot of things, but with my kids, I have pushed them from day one, I don't care what you do, I want you to do what you want to do. I want you to be happy and fulfilled.

I don't push them other than I want them to be who their uniquely wired to be. And they're all doing very different things. And I'm the cheerleader. I can't tell you how many mock interviews I've done in the last five, seven years. I've done tons and tons. Actually not bad at that because coaching and asking questions is one of my key skill sets. What are your strengths and weaknesses? What can you contribute in this job? All that kind of thing. I guess the fact we all have inherent value, at least from my faith perspective, we're all put on this earth to have meaning and purpose. I do try and live what I believe, try to have a humble attitude, not think that I'm better than other people. I don't know, somehow, they're not perfect, I'm not perfect. But they are living those values. They are people of faith. They are humble. They have a very good work ethic. They're amazing people.

So the highest compliment I could give on my kids, I'm not saying it's all me or my wife, but it's their lives, is that there's a lot in this book that was helpful to me and affirming, frankly, because I'm in a pretty good place, relatively speaking. But for my kids, it's like, well, that's interesting, but I didn't grow up with these challenges of identity and who am I and confusion and money. They know that we're wealthy, they know our situation, broadly speaking. They're not people that are terrified by money, nor do they feel like they're owned by it. They have a very healthy relationship. It just blows my mind. I don't know, the highest compliment I could pay them is that a lot that's in this book that's helpful to me is not as relevant to them. And it's not a putdown of your book at all. So don't take this as a dis at all.




Kristin Keffeler:

That's right. I say respond to you two, because you and your wife, and the incredible beings, that you have given them the room to become.




Warwick Fairfax:

Well, I guess because of the way I grew up, it was almost like a sacred cause that I wanted my kids to grow up differently than I did. I wanted to break, not the curse, but the whole five generation Fairfax. And you got to live in light of some superhero founder. I know we need to land the plane here, but when you have the founder, of course there's a book that was written on him. He wasn't just a successful businessman. He was an elder at his church. He was a wonderful husband, great father. His employees loved him. When he died, they said, his employees said, we've lost a kind and valued employer. There were no worker rights laws in the 1800s. So talk about the bar. He wasn't just a successful businessman. He was an incredible human being.

The bar was as high as you could possibly get, but yet now it's like, I don't know, I can't emulate him in his business, but if I could just be the kind of man he was in terms of character and faith and how he treated all the human beings. It's not a competition. I'd be okay with 10% of the way he was, I'd be fine with that. I don't know if that at all answers your question. Hopefully it answered some of it. Back to you Gary.




Gary Schneeberger:

You've fulfilled exactly what I was trying to do. I have definitely upset the applecart, so I'm about to go pick up the apples. But before I go pick up the apples, Kristin, I would be remiss if I didn't give you the chance to let listeners know how they can find out more about you and your services and what you do. So how can they find you online? And then we'll kick it back to Warwick to ask a final question.




Kristin Keffeler:

Thank you. My private practice is Illumination360. So illumination360.com. And that's where most all my podcasts and articles and publications are housed there. I also am most active on LinkedIn, and that's just Kristin Keffeler, K-E-F-F-E-L-E-R. And would love to get to be a part of any conversations that these listeners are interested in. So thank you for having me.




Gary Schneeberger:

Warwick, the last word. Well, not the last word, because Kristin will answer the question, but the last question is yours as always.




Warwick Fairfax:

We often ask this question, so I'll try and apply it to this particular conversation. There may be a young person, a rising generations, 20s up to early 30s. This may seem like their worst day, they might have over-identified with money, under-identified, they may be ashamed, embarrassed. I don't even know if my friends like me for myself. I can't find anything to do that's worthwhile. I have no drive, no ambition. I'm just listless, I'm depressed. Counseling doesn't seem to help me at least maybe I don't let it help me. There may be some rising generation that today may be, I don't know if it's their worst day, they may be in a bad, confused, somewhat despondent place saying, what is my role in the world?

I'm just this small cog in this big machine. I'll never live up to my parents' expectations. Why bother? Why bother? It's all too hard. I'm just going to give up on life. I'm just going to check out. Maybe I'll sit on a beach for the next 50 years and I don't know, better than nothing. What would a word of hope be for maybe for that rising generation that maybe today's not a great day, maybe they're in a pretty bad place? I know it's a big question, but at least what would a grain of hope or a ray of hope, if you will, you could give to that rising generation person?




Kristin Keffeler:

I think I would, one, I would say we all are worthy. There's a unique gift that every single one of us is here to give. And I think one of the greatest sadnesses is, for someone to go through their life and not really even scratch the surface of what that is. And it can take the courage of a lion to be willing to go lean into yourself enough, to know yourself enough to tap into that unique gift. And yet it is there, like a little flame. Every single one of us has it. And it may feel like it is so small that you can't even tend, you can't feel it. But the more you actually let a little light, a little oxygen, a little fuel in there, the more that that flame grows and the easier it is to hear that small still quiet voice that is guiding you to the next right step.

And that's all any of us needs to do, is tune in enough to know what the next right step is. I think that there is, so that would be the message of hope, is like, it's there. That little flame is there. And ultimately the goal doesn't have to be to go do something massively significant in the world. It is good enough to figure out how to be someone who is showing up with that light and that spreads to people in all sorts of ways that become part of a virtuous cycle, that when you give out, you get fed back to. Takes a little bit of courage, but it's possible. And the last thing I would say is, every single one of us has at least one experience we can probably lean on from some time. It may be in childhood or teenagehood, when we know that we really showed up as our best.

And being able to lean into and uncover times that we have already experienced that can be great fuel when we're at moments of feeling very desperate that it's not there.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough listener to know when the last word's been spoken on a subject and Kristin just spoke it. So until the next time we are together, I'm going to steal a couple of the adjectives that Kristin uses in describing her business. In saying this, we know that your crucibles are real and messy, but we also know this, and Warwick talked about it, and Kristin has talked about it. They're not the end of your story. You can learn the lessons of those crucibles. You can apply the lessons of those crucibles. And when you do, you can write the next chapter in your story, which can be the best chapter in your story. Because where that chapter will lead to as you walk out that journey is to a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond the Crucible. Visit our website beyondthecrucible.com, to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start, our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

Lauren Sisler was a freshman at Rutgers University when she learned she had lost her father just hours after she had lost her mother. Having come home to grieve one parent, she was blindsided by the news that the other had died, too. And she had no idea how any of it had happened. This week, we speak with Sisler about that 2003 tragedy, when she was not only hit with the unfathomable news of the deaths of her mom and dad, but the shame she couldn’t shake after she learned how they died: from prescription-drug overdoses.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond the Crucible.




Lauren Sisler:

They get in the car and we start driving. And at this point it was just tears, nobody really said anything. And then finally, as we start driving, I said to my Uncle Mike, I said, "Uncle Mike," I said, "I just want to see my dad. Where's my dad?" And then he pulled the car off the side of the road as you take the exit ramp back onto the Interstate. And I just remember feeling that gravel underneath the car crunching as he put it into park. And he turned around and he looked at me and he said, "Lauren, I'm sorry, but your dad's passed away too."




Gary Schneeberger:

In the moment she just described, Lauren Sisler learned she had lost her father just hours after she had lost her mother. Having come home to grieve one parent, she was hit with the news that the other had died too. And she had no idea how any of it had happened.

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This week, Warwick and I speak with Sisler, a freshman gymnast at Rutgers University at the time in 2003, who was not only hit with the unfathomable news of the deaths of her mom and dad, but the shame she couldn't shake after she learned how they died: from prescription drug overdoses. It would take her years to break free from what she calls the shackles of that shame, keeping the truth to herself even as she launched a successful career as a sideline reporter for college football and gymnastics on ESPN and the SEC network. But as she began to share the true story of her parents' deaths, she discovered she could transfer the hope and healing she experienced in facing those hard truths to the audiences that heard her speaking.




Warwick Fairfax:

Lauren, thanks so much for being here. It's an honor to have you. Before we get into a lot of what you do, and I love the book that you have coming out, How I Found My Sideline Shimmy, listeners, you'll have to listen to kind of understand more about that, you might already know, but we will discuss that more. But just in the work you do and the speaking, I love what you talk about, about fall in love with your story, and you have a choice in terms of how we deal with crucibles. So you really have an important mission that you have for people and it's on your heart.

But I'd love just to hear a little bit about how you grew up, I understand you grew up in Roanoke, Virginia, which is... Those of us in the Washington D.C. area are somewhat familiar with the end of the Shenandoah Valley, and it's far Southwestern corner of Virginia, I guess? But tell us about what life was like for you growing up in Roanoke, and dreams, and any, maybe, clues to what you were to do afterwards. So yeah, just tell us a bit about your background.




Lauren Sisler:

Thank you so much for this opportunity to join you all. I love the podcast, and just love your mission and vision as well for helping others to overcome some of those obstacles that, obviously, stand in the way of our lives. And we're all faced with them in one way, shape, or form. And I'm just thankful for this opportunity to be a voice in this space. And yeah, you talk about Virginia, which I happen to be in Virginia right now. I live in Birmingham, Alabama full-time. But I was very fortunate to be visiting family, as I've got life things happening, including a baby on the way later this June. And so the opportunity to be here, flooded by the beautiful mountains of southwest Virginia, is always amazing for me, and just love to come back home, because this is a place that is close to my heart, that I will always call home, no matter where the TV world takes me, which has taken me all over the place in the last several years, more than a decade of just traveling, bebopping around, dancing around the country.

But nevertheless, growing up in Roanoke, Virginia, I was very fortunate to live in a family. It was my mom and my dad, Lesley and Butch. His real name was George, but for some reason he hated the name George, so he went by Butch. I'm not really sure why, could never figure it out. His dad was also named George, and his dad hated the name George, and he went by Preston, the middle name. So nevertheless, we all come up with something. But yeah, my mom and dad, Lesley and Butch Sisler, and then my brother Allen, who is two-and-a-half years older than me. And we grew up in Roanoke, Virginia, as mentioned. And we were just that crazy busy family, always on the go, always doing different things throughout life.

Sports was at the center of all that. Sports was definitely the flagstone in the family, where we wake up in the morning, and Saturdays it was college football, Sundays we had Washington on the TV, so there you go. That was always the big thing. It was always the big rivalry between Washington and Dallas. So, certainly enjoyed watching the NFL as well. And then NASCAR was really big in our family, so we used to go to the racetrack a lot, whether it be Martinsville, which is the closest track to our home in Roanoke. Sometimes we'd go to Charlotte. But even cooler is that my brother was actually on a pit crew at the NRV Speedway, the New River Valley Speedway here. And so we spent a lot of Saturdays going out there, setting up our lawn chairs on these cement slabs, watching my brother down there in the pits do his thing, and getting to watch the stock cars race there at the quarter mile track.

So sports was definitely embedded in our family at a very young age. For me, it was kind of that good American family, living the dream. I feel like my parents were very supportive of my brother and I through our athletics. And he was a three sport athlete, my brother was football, baseball, and basketball, and kind of played those sports when he was younger. And then me over here, the gymnast, gymnastics was a sport that caught on very early, at an early age for me. And that really just became my sport, and something I thrived in, I grew up in, and really just became dedicated to it over the years. And so that really just became my main focus throughout elementary school, junior high, and high school, on into college.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, obviously we'll get to your crucible in college, but it sounds like, as listeners are hearing your story, it almost sounds... I think there's no such thing as a perfect upbringing, a 10 out of 10, but I don't know if it was a 9.9 or felt like it was... Did it feel like it was pretty good? As you look back, I don't know if there were any clues to some of the storm clouds that were to come, but it sounds somewhat idyllic as we're listening to you?




Lauren Sisler:

Very much so. And I think that's probably the hardest part as we dive into that part of the story, is that you're young. When we're young, let's be real, we're naive, and parents are really good at sweeping stuff under the rug, making things seem great and perfect, and everything's fine and well. And I will say there were a lot of those moments. There were a lot of those years. My parents, I would say, were just super supportive of my brother and I. My mom worked part-time most of her life so that she could take care of my brother and I, get us to our athletic events, was very involved. And so she really sacrificed a lot, because I think she really took being a mother to heart. She wanted to be a wife and a mother, and she made those sacrifices. And maybe she wasn't making the large paychecks, but it was enough to be able to help us and not have to put us in childcare situation throughout our adolescence and into teenage years. So with that being said, I think that everything on the outside, seemingly, was perfect.




Warwick Fairfax:

It seemed like life was unfolding pretty well. You're a freshman at Rutgers, doing gymnastics. It was probably a new adventure, different place than where you grew up, and life seemed pretty good. And I think you came home one time... Well actually, before you came home, just talk about that freshman year, and life changed forever during that freshman year, which, going into that freshman year, you felt like continuation of what was a great life. Gymnastics in college, great college. So just talk about how that life pivoted for you then.




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah, so going to Rutgers, obviously eight hours from home, it wasn't super close, but enough for my parents to jump in the car and come visit, and for me to get home, jump on a train or a plane. Going to Rutgers, yes, let's be real, bit of a culture shock going from Southwest Virginia to New Jersey. And I had to remind people as soon as I stepped foot on campus and opened my mouth, people are like, "You're not from around here, are you?" And I'm like, "Oh my God, what gave that away?" And I think my accent has probably gotten a little better being in the broadcasting world, because I've had to really learn to enunciate things a little better, and not maybe have as much of a drawl. But I do think the Southern will never be taken out of me, that's for sure. And especially now being in Alabama, some people argue that Virginia's not really the South, but I consider Virginia very much the South, especially this part of the state.

But nevertheless, it was a bit of a culture shock, but it was so exciting. As you mentioned, the world is right there in front of me. It's an extension of high school. Yes, there were challenges. Yes, there were major adjustments, like any student experiences going from high school to college, and all of the classwork and dedication. And, of course, and the training in the gym. Gymnastics becomes a full-time job, right? We're training 20 hours a week on top of our schoolwork. So you're adding that extra 20 hours of work on top of your grades and your curriculum. And so it was certainly an adjustment, but I was living the dream. I had dreamed of earning that college scholarship for so many years, and here I was living it out, and trying to navigate this new world.

And I think the one thing that I point out to people is that even when I went off to Rutgers, my relationship with my parents did not change. We talked every single day, burn up those phone lines. Because it was important to me to have that relationship with my parents, and they were very invested in me as well, in my career at Rutgers. And so my mom knew everything there was to know about gymnastics. So she was kind of the Gary in this group, right? So she was the one that knew everything there was to know; every single skill, a play by play, she wanted to know it all. So every day we had conversations, "I'm working on this new skill, this combination." And there was a lot of excitement, and that was an excitement for her.

And then my father, truth be told, he knew a good bit about gymnastics, but he was one of those that just showed up and cheered really loud. And for him, it was always a struggle. I go back and watch these old VHS tapes of me competing, and you just hear him whistling and screaming, "Yeah, let's go Lauren!" And he'll commentate. But the best part about it is he'll be like, "Okay, Lauren. Lauren's about to go on the balance beam." And yet I'm on the bars. He just never could get it straight. And I don't understand. And I'm like, "Dad, what are you doing?" His commentary is quite comical when I look back at it.

But nevertheless, we still had that close relationship. And so it really helped to have that support, especially when you transition from high school to college, and it's definitely a shock to the system. And so I felt like I was still very rooted back at home with my family and my parents. And so as we talk about getting into that second semester at Rutgers, we were about to approach midterms. I'd been studying for those exams. And this particular night on March 23rd, 2003, called my parents like I always did. Picked up the phone. My mom was excited to hear about this new combination I was working on on bars. And then I had talked to my dad briefly, and he had just celebrated his 52nd birthday. And I remember him telling me that he was so proud of me, and to keep working hard. And that was the end of our conversation. It was like most, 10, 15, 20 minutes. We hung up the phone, said our goodbyes, said our I love yous.

And I remember just setting my alarm clock that night thinking nothing of anything. Life is great, life is wonderful. I'm going to go in and crush these midterm exams hopefully, and that'll be it. And so I set my alarm clock, drifted off to sleep, and then woke up to the phone ringing. And of course, looking outside, I realized it was dark out. So that, of course, alarmed me a little bit. And then looked at the clock and it was just after 3:00 AM. And as I went to go grab the phone on the receiver that was sitting on my desk, I look at the caller ID and it said "Home", and that's when I knew something had to be wrong, because it's the middle of the night. Why are Mom and Dad calling me?

And so when I answered the phone, with hesitation, my father on the other end said, "Lauren, I need to talk to your brother." Well, my brother, at the time, was stationed in Norfolk, Virginia in the Navy. He was a parachute rigger there. And I could tell that my dad was in distress, and I didn't know if something was wrong with Dad, I didn't know something was wrong with Mom, if it was my brother, and I was just like, "Okay." I said, "Dad, what's wrong?" And he said, "Lauren, I just need to talk to your brother." So he wasn't giving me any information. And so I found my brother's phone number, recited it back to him. My dad said, "I'll call you back as soon as I talk to your brother." And I hung up the phone.

And then no more than 30 seconds goes by and I get a call back from my dad, and he was on the other end, and he said, "Lauren, your mom died." And I was just very caught off guard by it because, again, I had just talked to my mom. My mom's 45 years old, it's the middle of the night. And all of a sudden I'm thinking, "What do you mean, Mom died? This makes no sense to me." And I kind of begged him to explain, give me an explanation.

And in many ways, I think I was trying to almost wake myself up, like, "Wake up, wake up, this has got to be a nightmare. It's got to be a nightmare." He said, "Lauren, I can't explain it now. I need you to get on the next plane you can, and I'll be at the airport to pick you up in Roanoke." And so, of course, I just was shocked, I was stunned. And then I go into panic mode, "Okay, I got to get stuff together, what am I going to do?"

But as I'm kind of taking in this information I had just learned, my roommate even had woken up from her deep sleep, comes running over as she sees me slunk over on the floor crying, and starts shaking me and says, "Lauren, Lauren, wake up. You're having a nightmare." So she thought I was, in fact, having a nightmare. And, unfortunately, it was a nightmare, but it was reality. And so, as you can imagine, being an 18 year old suddenly just trying to piece together this news that I had received, and then ultimately just wanting to do nothing more than to get home and be with my father. That's all I wanted in that time, in that moment, is just to be home, and to get home to my dad.




Warwick Fairfax:

So, you got on the plane, and you landed in Roanoke, but yet, I guess, the unexpected was to continue. What happened next when you got to Roanoke?




Lauren Sisler:

So, when my plane touched down and I run outside, I'm expecting my dad to be there. And I'm looking everywhere and I don't see him. And so I stand out there for a few minutes, and then next thing you know, I see a Jeep Cherokee pull up, and out jumps my uncle and my cousin, Justin. And, of course, I'm very confused at this point, because I'm thinking, "All right, my dad was supposed to be here." But then my brain just starts jogging all these things. "He's at the hospital, he's probably still on his way. They didn't want me to sit here and have to wait forever. So, because my uncle and my cousin both lived in Roanoke, so it was much closer to the airport, my father had over an hour drive..." So, I'm kind of rationalizing all these thoughts in my mind, in this matter of seconds.

And then they get in the car and we start driving. And at this point, it was just tears. Nobody really said anything. And then finally, as we start driving, I said to my Uncle Mike, I said, "Uncle Mike," I said, "I just want to see my dad. Where's my dad?" And then he pulled the car off the side of the road, as you take the exit ramp back onto the Interstate. And I just remember feeling that gravel underneath the car crunching as he put it into park. And he turned around and he looked at me and he said, "Lauren, I'm sorry, but your dad's passed away too."




Warwick Fairfax:

It's hard to know - to begin to know - how to, obviously, process, or... Because at this point, you didn't know what had happened. You knew they'd passed, but you didn't know why, how. It almost felt like, as bad as that was, it felt like it got worse, in a sense. How could it be worse than two parents passing? Well, I don't know. Listening to your story a bit, it feels like it did. How could it have gotten worse? But yet, you were to learn how it happened. I don't know how you process any of what you went through, but is that fair? In some ways, it got worse the more you learned?




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah, and I think the stages of grief really have an interesting way of taking us in. And I think, for me, it was that initial shock. But then, to your point, now you've got to pick all these pieces up. You have to lay both your parents to rest, who just passed away five hours apart from each other. You have zero answers as to what happened. And you're just sitting here wondering, "Okay, what next? How am I going to do this? I'm 18 years old, I don't have a penny to my name. I've got nothing. What am I going to do?" And I think it's all these questions, and it's this shock, and it's this pain, and there's this grief, and, in many ways, anger.

But those emotions don't really hit you all at once, right? It starts out with almost that breathlessness. "Did I just hear this right? Is this possible? What just happened?" And then, as time goes on, days, weeks, months, and even years, you start to transcend into that grief stage and then that anger, the, "Why, why, why, why, why? How did this happen?" And then, to your point, Warwick, is that I think the hardest part is, is that there were so many questions as to how this could happen to the two of my parents, so suddenly, with literally not much information to go off of.

And so with this process, they have to do toxicology reports, and they have to do the death certificates, and I'll figure all this out. Well, what's crazy about it is the coroner's office has 90 days to complete this process. So we, as a family, sit here for 90 days, just wondering. "Okay, what was it? What happened?"

But behind closed doors, conversations were already being had with my Uncle Mike and my Auntie Linda, my mom's sister, my Uncle Mike's married to my Auntie Linda. And those conversations were already being had, about what possibly could have happened, what they found at the house, what were some clues, what were some things that were outstanding? And those conversations were happening, but they weren't really happening around me. And I think part of that was kind of protecting me, part of that was my young, naive self, not wanting to associate with, maybe, what could potentially be the truth surrounding what happened to them. And so really my family, especially my Aunt and Uncle, who really were picking up the pieces in this moment, just kind of navigated things on their own, and went behind the scenes, took care of what they needed to, and then ultimately just loved me and my brother through it, and helped us get through each day one day at a time.

And so really, where you talk about things getting worse, as you unpack what ultimately happened to my parents, after 90 days, those toxicology reports would reveal that both of my parents died of fentanyl overdoses. So both my parents had been going to a pain management doctor here in Roanoke, Virginia. They had been dealing with a lot of chronic pain. My mom had degenerative disc disease, which required multiple surgeries over the course of few years. My father had chronic back pain. My father also had served in the military, and had struggled with some depression and PTSD. And you also asked about there being signs. My father also struggled with alcohol much of his life, but that was something that very much, as children, seemed to be under control.

And so there was really no correlation in my mind that my parents could have a drug problem, that they could be experiencing substance misuse with the prescription drugs that they were taking, because prescription drugs, they're given to you. You take them. They're supposed to help you. They were what got my parents out of bed in the morning. They were what helped them to survive, in my mind. So those toxicology reports came back right at the 90-day mark. And, believe it or not, my Aunt, as soon as we got the call from the coroner's office that they were ready, we went straight over to the coroner's office, pulled up the car. My Aunt asked me if I wanted to go in with her. I said no. Sat in the car. It was blazing hot that day, I remember the air conditioning was just blowing. She goes out, she comes back, she goes into the office, comes back out with a manila envelope, looks at me and hands it to me, and says, "Do you want to open it and read it?" And I said no.

And so I threw it in the floorboard and that was it. Wanted nothing to do what was written on those pieces of paper, because I felt like if I read those pieces of paper, if I saw what ultimately killed my parents, took my parents' life, then that would have to be the truth of what happened to my parents. And I would have to acknowledge the truth, and I would have to live my life knowing that they died of overdoses, instead of this sugar-coated story that I had manifested and created in my mind, and was telling people all along. And my entire story would now be corrupt, if I saw this piece of paper that stated that my parents died of fentanyl overdoses.




Warwick Fairfax:

When did you open that manila envelope? Or when did your aunt and uncle tell you what happened?




Lauren Sisler:

So, 10 years was actually when I opened up that manila envelope. Which, when you think about it, how one person can go 10 years and just ignore something for so long? 10 years. And again, I would tell this sugar-coated story to people, because I went right back to Rutgers within 10 days. I'm back at Rutgers, people want to know what happened. They try to do it in a loving way. They're curious. And so when it would get brought up, I would say, "Well, Mom died of respiratory failure, Dad died of a heart attack." Because that sounded a lot better to me than, "Mom died of a fentanyl overdose, and Dad died of a fentanyl overdose."

And I was able to literally, in my mind, with respiratory failure, that just sounded so much better than overdose or addiction. And then with my father, the heart attack part, he had heart issues, and high cholesterol, and this and that. And so I was like, "Well, heart attack because he must have been heartbroken because of losing my mom. And his heart stopped." And that was all justified in my mind, even though he too ingested a lethal amount of fentanyl, just hours after my mom did. And so I literally was justifying this in my mind, so much so that I started to believe it. I literally walked through life for several years concocting this story, and I pretty much spoke it into existence. I knew, in my heart, that neither one of my parents intentionally took their lives that day. Both overdoses were ruled accidental.

But the bottom line is there's no way for us to know what led them into those moments. What led them to say, "I'm going to take this fentanyl." Because my mom was prescribed fentanyl, but it's in a pain patch, and it's intended to be worn, a 72-hour time release. Eventually she couldn't... That wasn't enough. So the doctor dropped that from 72 hours to every 48 hours, she was swapping out the pain patch. But as a pain patch is released into your bloodstream and your system, that's not technically lethal. But what ends up happening is my parents put those pain patches in the freezer, and they began to suck on the pain patches. And ultimately, that gives you just the immediate high that you, unfortunately, don't know how much you're actually getting. And both of my parents had obviously gotten so deep down this road of addiction, that they felt this might be the only way that they can actually feel better, or stave off some of that addiction pain that they were feeling.

You mentioned a book on the horizon. There's been some discoveries that have happened, because even almost 20 years after my parents passed away, there were still so many black holes. So many things that we did not know as a family, so many things that we did not understand, that have been uncovered in such a beautiful way, that I could just tell you that it's amazing, this journey and process. Where I'm at now, 20 years after they passed away, to where I was even just five years ago or 10 years ago, it's truly been a beautiful journey. And as sad and tragic as it has been, it has also been so enlightening. And many of those questions that we had, there have been answers that have followed, even 20 years later.




Gary Schneeberger:

That makes me think of, on the YouTube version of this show, I always begin in talking about crucible experiences; traumas, tragedies, setbacks, failures. I always begin by saying, "Those things didn't happen to you, they happened for you. They don't define you, they refine you." And it sounds like what you're describing is that experience. Is that fair? That that was kind of your experience as you researched, as you understood, with the journalist's skill of knowing how to research, did that feel like it was doing that to you, that it was refining you in some way? That these things, painful as they were, didn't happen to you, you were able to pivot a bit, and see that they happened for you, to understand and then help others? Is that a fair statement?




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah, I think that's a great perspective, Gary, because I do think that has been one of the biggest lessons I've learned through my personal journey. But as I've transcended into sports broadcasting, right? Because my job as a sports broadcaster is to ask questions and tell stories. So when I ask those questions, I'm literally digging under the surface to learn more about an individual, and learn more about their history, where they came from, and ultimately, what experiences they've undergone that have ultimately shaped who they are today.

And I think that when you talk about refining things, we go through things in life. And in those moments we wonder, "Why me? How is this possible? How could this happen to my two best friends? The two people that are loved by so many, we're a church-going family, we are so close and so tight, and everyone loves my parents, and they were loved by so many and they loved with their whole hearts. And how could such a terrible thing happen to such great people?" Those questions come up a lot, because we all experience hardships, we all experience adversity, we all experience challenges, and it's easy to get caught in that continuum of the, "Why me?"

But now looking back, as I reflect on this journey, I realize that that refinement has really happened, and it's taken time. It's been a long journey and a long process. But as I'm here today, I realize now that it has been revealed to me that, as I stand here, that my story has meaning and it has purpose. And that I'm so thankful that I've been able to see that through this evolution and this process, going from being this 18 year old, completely clueless, how am I going to survive this? To now 20 years later, having this platform to be able to share other people's stories.

Because I see stories are what unite us, it's what brings us together, and it ultimately shapes us into who we are, and gives us almost this credibility to be able to go to someone else and say, "I went through this thing, and I know you're going through something similar. I want to help you get through this, and this is how." Because I think that's where inspiration, encouragement, and hope all come from, and I think it's passed along from one person to the next, to the next, to the next.




Warwick Fairfax:

Prescription drugs is a horrendous thing, and they didn't take it by choice. They took it because they were in terrible pain. But how did you get through that, to the point that you're at now? It seems, almost, probably hard for a lot of people to believe. How in the world could Lauren come back from that, and not let that define and destroy her life?




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah. That's been something I've also been trying to uncover over the years. And I will tell you this. As I've tried to understand that a little bit more, because one question I do get, as I go on the public speaking circuit, is that very same question. "How did you do it? How did you get through it? How did you not turn to substance yourself to cope with those things?" I'm sitting here thinking to myself, "Well, I'd love to have a straightforward answer on this, and I don't think there's any one right or wrong answer to it." And really, maybe that manuscript that says, "This is exactly, piece by piece, how I did it."

But I will say that I have uncovered a lot of those questions with my therapist. I've seen a therapist... Once my parents passed away, when I'd gone back to school, they had provided me with a therapist to navigate some of these tumultuous times, and then I would pull back from it and, "I'm good!" And then I'd kind of slip back into, "Okay, maybe I need to start going to see somebody." But really I would say in these last several years, prior to the pandemic, I started meeting with somebody in Birmingham. And because I'm where I'm at now, I'm truly at a point where it's not so much about healing, and it is very much about healing, but it's more about understanding the how and the why. And I'm so curious, especially as a reporter, because I go into reporter mode, and I start asking these questions, and I now almost feel invigorated, exonerated in many ways. I think about the shackles of shame have finally just kind of ripped off of me.

But now I want to understand why. And I don't think I had the maturity nor the experience nor the healing to be able to ask those same questions maybe 10 years ago. Because I didn't really want to know why. But now I'm at that point where I'm like, "Okay, how did I do this? And why did I do this?" And it's so cool to walk through that process, and understand why I'm where I'm at. And I think a lot of it became the compartmentalization that I was able to create for myself, this window of tolerance. And I think some of it probably stems from gymnastics; the competitive spirit, the competitive nature, the focus mentality, "Okay, focus, focus, focus." So I was able to just focus in on things, and almost eliminate those outside distractions, those outside voices, the outside noise. And so it was almost like rinse and repeat. "Okay, I'm going through this thing. Focus, focus. All right, get through it. Okay, I overcame that challenge. All right, next!" And so a lot of it was the compartmentalization and being able to do that.

But when I think about that, I'm always curious to know what allows us to have that innate ability to create that window of tolerance for ourselves? And I think that's something I've been trying to uncover and to recognize. Because, let's be real, life is hard, and I certainly don't place myself in any sort of category as to having superhuman powers to be able to just overcome this thing. But I do think that, in many ways, that my parents... Were they perfect? No. But I do feel like they equipped me with certain things that helped me later in life to navigate some of these challenges. And then I also think the sport of gymnastics, paired with that, allowed me to do so. And then I just think that sort of determination and that work ethic to say, "Okay, I'm going to push past this."

And then ultimately I have to say I dove into my faith. And I think that's where a lot of this has really grown exponentially. Because instead of leaning out in the early phases of when all of this happened, I really leaned out, and kind of leaned back and said, "Ooh, I got this. I don't need your help. I'm good!" Then to realize that, "Wait, why don't I lean in? And utilize these resources, lean into my faith, lean into God, lean into the people around me, and say, "Hey, I'm going to accept your help. You're here for me. I've got to stand on my own two feet and take that first step forward. But let's hold hands and let's walk through this together.""




Gary Schneeberger:

I'm glad you brought up your faith, because 20 minutes ago in this conversation, this came to me as you were talking, the difficulty of facing the truth that you had. And I think of John 8:31-32, "the truth will set you free."




Lauren Sisler:

Yep.




Gary Schneeberger:

And that's exactly what we're talking about here, in the story of Lauren Sisler. The truth has set you free, and not just... Although for your own freedom and your own wellbeing, but the freedom to then transfer freedom, transfer healing to others, and that is a beautiful thing. "Beauty from ashes," to go back to the Bible in that case. That's the summary of your story, I think.




Lauren Sisler:

I love that too. And you use the word "transfer", that's such a good word, because it is like taking my experience. And one thing I do encourage people, and I think it's really hard, because a lot of times people want to make comparisons. I'll go speak at an event, and someone will say, "Well, I went through this, and certainly not as bad as what you've been through..." But I stop them right there, because your experience is your experience, right? You've gone through your challenges, that I can't even begin to know what those might feel like to you, and vice versa. But ultimately, we experience similarities, we experience similar things, and trauma is trauma. Tragedy is tragedy. Shame is shame. No matter what led you to that emotion, to that feeling, to whatever that thing that is gripping you, you might have been led down that path in a different way, but ultimately, you're experiencing that same emotion.

And I love that terminology of transferring that, because being able to transfer my life experiences and what I've experienced to help you maybe walk through your shame... Because shame comes in so many different shapes, sizes, experiences, right? And I think that whether you've experienced addiction, or loss because of addiction, not everybody knows what that feels like, but you've walked through shame in some sort of way. Whether it's lost a job, made a poor choice, wish you could literally hit the rewind button and erase something that you've done in your life. We all walk through the shadows of shame. And I think that's what's really great about this podcast, specifically, and really just this opportunity to use our stories to empower other people, to also walk out of those shadows of shame, and undo those shackles, and say, "Look, I don't have to be shackled to this anymore. I can be free, if I can only stand in my truth." And I think that if we can encourage people to stand in their truth, and own every piece of their story, they're going to be set free in ways they never even imagined possible.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's so well said, Lauren. I want to pick up on some strands that you said, because I think there are some important things you've said that can really help people. Certainly one of the things that I was blessed by on this podcast, we had a guy, David Charbonnet, that was a Navy SEAL, that became a paraplegic in a parachuting training accident. And I mentioned to him, "Gosh, what I went through, losing this 150-year-old family business in a $2.25 billion takeover, big news in Australia, and lots of nasty editorial cartoons and all the rest..." And in a moment of tremendous grace, and he is also a person of faith, he said, "Warwick, your worst day is your worst day. Basically, it's not a competition."

And that was so generous, because to me, objectively, what he went through, being a paraplegic was objectively, to me, feels like a lot worse than what I went through. But pretty much everybody we've had on our podcast has had that same attitude. And we've had paraplegics, quadriplegics-




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah, I love that.




Warwick Fairfax:

... victims of abuse, victims of incredible things, and they have this spirit of generosity.

But there's another strand that you mentioned I think is really important. I had some things I had to understand, how certainly family members behaved the way they did, and as I've understood what made them who they were, and made them like they were, and the choices they made or what happened, it made it somewhat, if not significantly, easier to deal with, as I understood what happened and why. And understanding, at least in my case, made it easier to forgive. Like, "Okay, I get it. They went through trauma, they were this way and that way, and it makes sense now." It doesn't mean things are necessarily right. So those are important lessons, and I think it can be helpful to all of us, is counseling, certainly from our perspective, faith, but just understanding. Understanding helps breed freedom. Does that make sense? Just because that's what I'm hearing in your story, are some of the clues that it can help others.




Lauren Sisler:

Yeah, I love that. The understanding piece, I think, is so critical here. And there is that level of healing. And you talk about forgiveness, right? Because there was that time where I was very angry. Angry at God, and also some level of anger at my parents, of how did this happen? How did it get out of control? How did we not know? Why did you not cry for help? And I hear this time and time again when people come and share their personal stories with me, of just, "My mom or dad is going through addiction." Or, "They won't get clean, they won't get sober for me." Or perhaps they've been incarcerated due to drug use. Or anything outside or inside that realm. And there is that anger that often occurs.

And I do think that understanding allows us to have forgiveness, which I also think is part of that whole equation of setting us free. Having a better understanding, while I might not ever understand or know the exact reasons for why the challenges for my parents continued to mount, as it pertained to their prescription drug use, and then, ultimately, their financial crisis that just came crumbling down all at one time, there were a lot of things, I think, that led down that pathway. But in understanding their story, understanding their struggle, I don't love them any less. If anything, I feel like I embrace them even more.

And I think that really came to me when I hit that 10-year mark, opened up those toxicology reports, decided it was time to start sharing their story publicly. And as I did that, there was specifically a handful of people that... Even my closest friends in school didn't even know how my parents died. My best friend didn't even know how my parents died for several years.

But one thing that came of it, which I thought was just so cool, was that even my dad's colleagues at his work, so he used to work at the Salem VA Medical Center as a biomedical technician. And there were so many people that just loved my dad, adored my dad, showed up to the funeral, and I might have not known them personally, but they stayed connected through myself and my brother through Facebook and different social media platforms. And when they saw that story 10 years later, saw me opening up and talking about it, I received an overwhelming response.

And instead of the fears being validated, that people would judge my parents, because that's why I withdrew from it for so long, instead it was, "Wow, I can't believe that you went through this. I can't believe your parents were going through this. We loved your parents so much. We wish we would've known, maybe we could've done something to help them. But your parents were such wonderful people, and they did everything they could to fight for you and your brother, and to give you and your brother everything they could, even despite all the pain and all the turmoil they were going through, both physically and financially." And then, "I now feel I have peace of mind, knowing what took their lives that day."

So in many ways, I was able to give others, that cared and loved for my parents so much, some peace through that understanding. And I felt like that was a gift. And even though that gift didn't come for many years, I felt like that was a gift that was bestowed on me. And then ultimately, I was able to give that to others who did love and care for my parents so deeply.




Gary Schneeberger:

In football, there's a clock. And in football, toward the end of the game, there's the two-minute warning. And in this conversation, knowing that the two people who aren't me on this call have appointments coming up, we're going to call the two-minute warning right now, and begin wrapping up before the clock runs out. But before we do that, there's a couple things I want to do with you. One, I want you to know I dressed for the occasion with you. There's my t-shirt, which says, Team Brave.




Lauren Sisler:

Yay!




Gary Schneeberger:

Which I believe you definitely are that, Lauren, you are a...




Lauren Sisler:

Oh, thank you.




Gary Schneeberger:

... a leading player on Team Brave, for sure. And before we get to the clock running out, I'd be remiss if I didn't give you the chance to talk about your book, which is coming up, the timing of your book. And if you can sneak it in at some point, the Sideline Shimmy, if you could just talk about how that's helped you. How that's helped you heal as well. And then we'll turn it back over to Warwick to ask you the final question.




Lauren Sisler:

Well, I so appreciate that. Thank you, I am honored to be part of Team Brave, such an honor. And I'm so glad you dressed up for us, because I know you were just on a really, really awesome, amazing trip. I'm waiting to unpack those details when we've got time, because I know... Ugh, I just can't wait to hear about it. I would just say, as we are winding down in this two-minute warning, I'm so thankful, as we talked about a little bit of the book process. And this was actually something that I started at the beginning of last year, in 2021, and have been working on now for about a year and a half. And it has been quite a process and quite a journey.

And for many years, I've had people say, "Well, you should write a book, you should write a book." And I was just like, "Write a book? I don't have any idea how to write a book. Where to go, what do I do? What do I do with my hands?" And I just was clueless. And it's amazing how the good Lord works, because suddenly people come into your life, and then they plant those seeds, and they say, "Well, I've got someone, I know someone that can help out with this." And so it's been a really cool process of meeting the right people, and working with the right publisher, and soon to be publicist, wink, wink. Nudge, nudge. So, putting the right people in place to help in this process.

And super excited about it, just because so much has been uncovered, and while we never went into it with the intention of it being an investigative piece, it has definitely uncovered so many things and so many details, but more than anything, so many connections and relationships. And there's so much healing that has come from it, and I am so excited to gift that to other people. The perspective that I've received in this process, I think, is truly a gift, and I want to be able to gift that to other people. I want to transfer that to other people, as you said, Gary, through this book. And so I'm really excited about it. And we don't have a specific launch date this moment, but I think we're eyeballing the fall, as I'm knee-deep in football season, because what better time is there, right?

And you mentioned, as we've been batting titles back and forth, and figuring out what is going to be the scope of this book, and what do we want, really, people, when they pick that up, to see, you mentioned the Sideline Shimmy. And with some encouragement from you, and our good friend Darren, and others that have been part of this process, the Sideline Shimmy has taken on a form of its own. And most people will be like, "What in the world is the Sideline Shimmy?"

Well, believe it or not, the Sideline Shimmy was born in 2019, in fact. So as I was working through my career at ESPN, I noticed, quite often, that my nerves were still gripping me, at times. And I'm like, "Okay, I know the content. I know exactly what I'm supposed to say. I know the questions. I know exactly what I'm talking about." And yet my body still has this way of screaming at me, like, "You're standing on a football field in front of 2 million people about to go live!" Okay! I guess it's okay to be nervous, right? Well, how do you combat those nerves? And that's something that I really struggled with, because I'm thinking like, "I'm confident, I'm here, I've earned this opportunity." And yet my body is still throwing me into chaos. And so my central nervous system was taking over.

And with that being said, as the former DJ, DJ Sizzla, music is in my veins. I love to dance, I love to just be free. I can't tell you that I'm a good dancer. But what I started doing was dancing on the sidelines, because really, it helped me to take that nervous, anxious, excited energy, that was paired with adrenaline, that had me going a million miles an hour, helped me to slow down and just soak it all in. And with the dancing, it really just kind of helped me to use that to really just calm the nerves, and really, in many ways, bring me back to the moment.

And so dancing became my thing, and it was something that... What I realized? Never assume the cameras aren't rolling, because this whole dancing thing was assumed that it was before the game kicked off, cameras weren't rolling, nobody's really watching. Oh, by the way, they're always watching. And so these silly dances made their way to my inbox or my cell phone, I'd get blown up with text messages, "Hey, we caught this on camera." And I'm like, "Oh. Okay." So then, of course, I ended up posting these silly things on social media. And I think the coolest part about it is it has turned into something more than I ever imagined it would with the Sideline Shimmy.

But ultimately, I've found so many people finding joy in the Sideline Shimmy. And realizing that everyone can find joy and purpose. And whatever your Sideline Shimmy is might look different than mine, but everyone has a Sideline Shimmy. And so unlocking whatever that Sideline Shimmy is, that gives you joy, that helps you to uncover and unnerve yourself, and to go through life being free and joyous and happy, no matter who's watching, I think is an amazing thing, and it's a gift. And so hopefully through this book, and through this process, I can help other people find their Sideline Shimmy too.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's wonderful, wow. Yeah, I've seen that on YouTube, and it's a lot of fun. So yeah, it's just a little fun, light relief as you're doing your thing as a sports journalist. So it's funny, we've spoken a lot about your story and your parents' story, and not as much about you being a sports journalist, which most people would know you. It's like, "Lauren Sisler, she's on the sidelines at SEC network, and ESPN, and making these insightful comments." So, from what I understand, that's a whole nother discussion, which we don't have too much time to get into. But you're starting out in a small station in Roanoke, and then Virginia, and Alabama, and ESPN. Which is incredible, and you've been very successful.

So just talk about your vision. I have a feeling you view what you do as a sports journalist as more than a job. I'm pretty sure there's a mission behind it. And I think you've hinted at what that mission is to you. And more broadly than just that mission, talk about the mission you have in your speaking and your book. And I love some of the things you say about finding meaning and purpose, and fall in love with your story. You have a choice. There's clearly a very strong mission you have, and being a sports journalist is part of that. So just talk about those things. Your mission as a sports journalist, your mission more generally about the power of telling a story, and...




Lauren Sisler:

The one thing that I have found myself doing, and really it has sprouted up in recent years. When I step foot on that football field, and that national anthem plays, because that's always the time where everybody pauses what they're doing, warmups are over, guys have gone back in the locker room, and now everyone stands. And that is the time where I stand in my thoughts in that moment, and I look up to the sky, and I look to God, and I look to my parents, and I say, "Give me this opportunity to go out here, give me the right words to say. May a story, may an event, may something that happens tonight, influence and impact the lives of other, even if just one life, in a positive way." And so that's always my hope and my goal when I step foot out on that football field, is to give someone some encouragement, some inspiration, a story of hope, something that they may be able to take through their lives.

Then of course, I thank the good Lord above, and my mom and dad, and I have that conversation with them, and it's just a beautiful moment to be able to spend, as my nerves and that excitement and all the adrenaline and the pageantry that's about to happen around us, as those players get ready to run out of that tunnel. And so it really is a special moment. And so that's really become a vision and a mission for me when I step foot on that football field. And I've discovered it's more than the wins and the losses, it's more than just a game, right? It's so much more than that. And that's where I feel so thankful for this gift of being able to use my voice to share stories that have so much meaning, so much purpose.

And that's where the tagline, as you mentioned, "fall in love with your story" has really, the root of that, has come from. Because I want to encourage all to fall in love with their story, undo those shackles of shame, because for so many years, I harbored this shame, and realized that I'm not going to allow this shame to define me, just like it didn't define my parents. My parents aren't defined by how they died, but by how they lived their lives. And now I want to stand in that truth and carry that same ideology with me. And recognizing, "Okay, you know what? I'm not going to be defined by shame anymore, and I'm going to use this as an opportunity to help other people, and to inspire and encourage other people."

So ultimately, when I undid the shackles of shame and fell in love with my story, I wanted to give that to other people, transfer that to other people, as Gary said, and help them to also fall in love with their story. And so that really has become my goal and mission in the sports world, as a sports broadcaster. And beyond that, when I step foot on stage and share my personal and professional journey, and words of encouragement, and ultimately, give people a lens of hope and inspiration.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough to know when the final word on a subject has been spoken, and Lauren Sisler has just spoken it. If this microphone wasn't so expensive, I would drop it.




Lauren Sisler:

Mic drop! Ooh!




Gary Schneeberger:

It's a mic drop moment. I don't want to have to buy a new one. So listener, until we're together next time, please remember that we do understand that crucible experiences are painful. We know, Lauren and Warwick talked about the pain that they have gone through in their own crucible experiences. But you also heard there's a way out of that pain, there's a way beyond that pain. Embracing your story, learning to love your story. I love that concept. Learn to love your story, and learn the lessons, as well, of your crucible, because when you do learn the lessons of them, and apply them, and move forward, your crucible experience is not the end of your story. It was not the end of Lauren Sisler's story. It can be the beginning of a new story, as it was for Lauren, that will lead you to a final destination that's the most rewarding of all, and that is a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond the Crucible. Visit our website, beyondthecrucible.com, to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start? Our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.

A new day. The sun will come up. Hope. Things will get better. These are beliefs and emotions we all long to experience when we’ve been through a crucible. It’s not easy to get there, but in this episode we aim to help you move in that direction. Warwick discusses in detail his new blog at BeyondTheCrucible.com about the four things he wishes he’d known when he went through his darkest time … to help you get through yours.

Highlights

Transcript

Warwick Fairfax:

Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Beyond The Crucible. It would've been helpful if somebody had told me or if I'd read somewhere, grieving is a natural part of the process. Yes, the grief won't completely go away, but it'll become more manageable. There'll be a scar rather than an open wound. This whole aphorism, this too shall pass. There will be a new day. The sun will come up. I know it may be hard to believe. And that wouldn't have just stopped all the pain instantly, but it would've given me some hope that this is part of the process, that things will get better.




Gary Schneeberger:

A new day. The sun will come up. Hope. Things will get better. Those are beliefs and emotions we all want to experience when we've been through a crucible. It's not easy to get there, as you just heard Warwick say, but keep listening. He's about to guide you through the four things he wishes he'd known when he went through his darkest time to help you get through yours.

Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. Warwick and I talked this week about his latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com, in which he unpacks all four of those points. You'll learn that it's okay to give yourself permission to grieve, that feeling broken doesn't mean you're worthless, that you are not defined by your worst day, and that a small step can be a defining moment in your life of significance. The upshot of it all, the bottom of the pit where so many of us find ourselves after setback and failure find us, does not have to be our permanent address.

That blog at beyondthecrucible.com is, and we just titled this, this is very exciting, this is hot off the presses, as two old newspaper guys, we can say that, Warwick, Four Things I Wish I Knew in my Darkest Time. If you've listened to the show for any period of time at all that Warwick has had indeed, a dark time, some time darker than others. The takeover that didn't work out of his family media company. We'll talk about that. But we'll talk about, more importantly than the details, we have to set the details of what that trial was, but then we'll talk about how he found his way to triumph. And that's those four points that he wishes he knew when he was in that dark moment, Warwick. So let's just level set for folks, what was that dark moment? I know you love to relive this all the time.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's kind of like that movie, what was it, Groundhog Day with Bill Murray and Andie MacDowell. And I don't know if it's a late '80s, early '90s movie. And yeah, he relives the same day over and over again. If you haven't seen it, it's very funny. So we're going to be doing a version of Groundhog Day here.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah. But the non-comedic version of Groundhog Day.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't funny. Yeah. Not when you're living through your own crucible. So basically just to give folks a bit of a picture of what the darkest time was, the backdrop to it was the 1987 $2.25 billion takeover of my family's 150 year old media business, founded by John Fairfax. Strong person of faith. Became a massive company with newspapers, TV, magazines, radio. As we'll get into, I prepared my whole life to be in this business. And as I was coming back from Harvard Business School in '87, my dad died earlier that year. He was in his 80s at the time. I was from his third marriage. That precipitated some instability in the stock market. Stock market price rose. Company thought the company was in play. I, like my parents, thought the company was not being well managed and wasn't being run along the ideals of the founder.

So when my youthful naivety, a few months after graduating from business school, I launched this $2.25 billion takeover. Things pretty much went wrong right from the start. Other family members sold out. They didn't really believe in me and my vision. Didn't want to be in a company controlled by a 26 year old. October '87, stock market crash hurt our asset sales. Three years later, Australia gets in a big recession. And newspapers are very cyclical. And so in late 1990, December 1990, the company had to file for bankruptcy. So that, believe it or not, is a very brief Cliff Notes version of what happened.




Gary Schneeberger:

I love, not in the sense of this makes me happy, but I love the way that you expressed all of this in the blog that we're talking about that's at beyondthecrucible.com. You end one paragraph by saying, "I was not in a good place." You just described that. I was not in a good place. You begin the next paragraph, and in fact set this one sentence aside in its own paragraph, "I was in the pit of despair." So pit of despair is not a drive-by term. That's a deeply felt term. Why did it feel like, why was it a pit of despair that you found yourself in after the takeover failed?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's funny, some people might think, oh, it's the money, right? $2.25 billion failure. That's a lot of money. It really wasn't - that wasn't the key issue. It was I felt like I'd let my parents down, my father down, who had died a few years earlier, as I mentioned, in 1987. I felt like I'd caused rifts within the family. Now, they might have sold out at the height of the takeover and got lots of money for selling their shares. But their perspective would be, yeah, but we sold because you forced us to sell. You gave us no option. And so yes, they had money, but their position would be, well, you gave us no choice. So it caused rifts in the family.

It caused fear, if you will, just uncertainty, amongst the 4,000 plus employees. They were used to working for the Fairfax family. They felt safe. They felt like we weren't going to be favoring one party versus another, one political party. They felt like John Fairfax Ltd., the Sydney Morning Herald, the Age, the Financial Review, those are papers they were proud to work with. And so they felt like, after the company had to file for bankruptcy, who's going to own us now? Is it going to be editorial independence? What about our jobs? I mean, it caused tremendous uncertainty, and understandably.

I felt like my whole point of doing the takeover, as I mentioned, was to bring the company back to the ideals of the founder, have it be well managed. And basically what I did helped cause the company leaving family hands. I felt like I let my great-great-grandfather down. And in a sense, if all that, it's almost like a sales line, and wait, there's more. You think that's bad enough, it gets worse.

So the hardest thing for me was I was a person of faith, which happened at a evangelical Anglican church at Oxford. But the founder of the company, John Fairfax, was also a person of faith. So in my misguided naivety and theology, I thought, oh, I know what God's plan is, to resurrect the company in the image of the founder. Therefore, I let God down. Note to listeners, anytime you think you're pretty certain of what God's plan is, that tends to be a recipe for disaster because that's not always the easiest thing to discern.

So it was awful. I mean, my whole life I'd prepared myself to go into this company, undergrad degree at Oxford, like my dad and some other relatives, worked on Wall Street, MBA from Harvard Business School. My whole life, I'd prepared myself to do it. And so I was at a point where, well, what do I do now? I've failed in my purpose for being, I've failed in my purpose for living. What now? What kind of legacy? What kind of impact can I possibly have that's even close to that? So that's why this was so crushing. I let my family down, employees, God down. Yeah, it was just mind numbingly crushing. That's what led me into the pit of the despair. My reason for being on this Earth has gone. There was a plan for my life, and I just obliterated and destroyed it. So yeah, you almost think, well, what's the purpose of even asking the question what's now? Sort of a bit irrelevant, right? It's just - I was just really in the pit of despair without seeing any light at the end of the tunnel.




Gary Schneeberger:

But in the context of this show, my job is to ask another question, so we're all good. In all seriousness, let's sort of back away a little bit from sort of flogging your situation, talking about your situation, and pivot into what the blog talks about. But before we get there, one of the things that's important to understand is that what you've just described, very painful, it's your unique circumstances. But one of the things we say all the time on the show is even though your circumstances of your crucible are different, the emotions are the same. And people who've been on the show had the same kinds of emotions. They've talked about a pit of despair. They've been in that place.

And in fact, one of the things we've done at Beyond the Crucible is commissioned a study in which we surveyed now more than 11,000 people who, of those 11,000 people, 72% have said they have gone through an experience that was so devastating that it changed the trajectory of their lives. Of that group of people, 40% right now are saying that that's still holding them back in some way. These are the folks, Warwick, that you've dedicated Beyond the Crucible to, to help them move beyond their worst day, go from tragedy to triumph. And really when we talk in this blog that you wrote, Four Things I, Warwick Fairfax, Wish I Knew in My Darkest Time, you're extending that to all of our listeners who are in that 72% of people who've had crucibles, that 40% still being held back by them. This is not just your story that you're telling in this blog.




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. And that's one of the crazy things is that, all the way back to 2008 when I, as listeners know, gave that talk in church about my story, and I'm thinking how could anybody identify with a kind of former media mogul, if you will, and his challenges? But so many people came up to me in the weeks and months after and said, "Your story was so helpful." And it took me while to understand, well, how could that be?

And I think the answer is part of the human condition is challenges, is tragedy, for some even trauma, more than we would think. And so with over, I don't know, 150 plus podcast episodes, we've had stories of physical challenges. Men and women have become quadriplegics or paraplegics. Victims of abuse, abandonment, business failure, loss of loved ones, divorce. And the crucibles may be different, but that sense of being at the bottom of the pit and feeling like there's no hope and how do I get out of it?

We chatted to a guest just recently, Adam Vibe Gunton. One of the things he said is he suffered from substance abuse. At the bottom of the pit, he felt like it was a bottomless pit. He couldn't see the bottom. He just kept falling and falling. I mean, it's just a horrific thought. It's nice to, okay, at least if you're at the bottom, it may be dark, but at least you have the hope that it can't get worse. But not in his case. That sense of tragedy, my life's over, what do I do now? How can I even think of just getting out of bed in the morning? There's so many people we've had on the podcast, very different stories, but as you often say, the emotions are very similar.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And the blog that we're talking about at beyondthecrucible.com, the blog addresses four specific ways to meet those emotions. As those emotions are roiling around in the head and the heart and the spirit of those who've been through crucibles just like you, I mean, we posed the question, your team posed the question to you, Warwick, what are three or four things you wish you had known when you were going through your crucible experience? Your dark time. Almost called it Your Darkest Hour, but that's too Churchillian for us. So we didn't go there.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, there's a recent movie, I think, called My Darkest Hour or something involving Churchill and 1940 and Battle of Britain stuff. So yeah, indeed.




Gary Schneeberger:

So let's unpack now these four points in your blog that speak directly to some of the most painful emotions people are going through, some of the most painful emotions you were going through. The first one, I mean, this is the starting point of if you had to map out a life of significance after a crucible, the starting point, the starter's pistol is this point. And that's the first point of your blog, give yourself permission to grieve. I suspect that, well, you say it right here. There are all kinds of intense feelings and you didn't really know how to process those. And you wished, looking back, that you had given yourself permission to grieve. How did you process it right after the takeover failed?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. I mean, I'm a reflective person, so I was just in pain. Rather than giving myself permission to grieve, I was giving myself permission to self-flagellate, to hate on myself, if you will. So my attitude in life, which is not particularly healthy, is if there's a problem in the world, it's my fault. So I could've, with some degree of justification, say a lot of it was my fault, but look, there were challenging dynamics in the family going back decades before I was born, and rifts and power and money. And yeah, I got some bad advice at certain point from some advisors that maybe weren't as helpful as they could be. Yes, I ignored some good advice. But it was a complex situation.

But rather than giving myself permission to grieve, I just was in almost self-hatred mode. I was just really beating up on myself. And how could I've been so dumb? I had a Harvard MBA. How could I think the family wouldn't sell out? What a stupid decision, mistake. And it was objectively. Why did I ignore the good advisors and get rid of them and listened to the advisors that told me what I wanted to hear? I mean, so many things. Why did I even want to go back to the family business? It would've been better off doing anything else because it was so complicated, and turmoil and friction and factions.

So that's where I was going. But what would've been healthier would've been to give myself permission to grieve, yes, to feel sorrow, maybe get some counseling. Which I had, but years later. I just did not really feel it was okay to feel angry and hurt. And it's like part of the grieving process is giving yourself permission to grieve. And I just really didn't. I just felt so bad about myself, but I didn't really know how to process that. I just didn't know what to do with all the self-anger and frustration. So no, I didn't really give myself permission to grieve. I was just self-hating, which it really wasn't helpful. I wasn't trying to process in a way saying, okay. So I wasn't following a helpful process, put it that way.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, I found a quote about grief and giving ourselves permission to grieve from Elisabeth Kubler-Ross and David Kessler, and they say this, "The reality is that you will grieve forever. You will not get over that loss. You will heal and you'll rebuild yourself around the loss you've suffered. You'll be whole again, but you'll never be the same. Nor should you be the same or should you want to be the same." That seems to be a pretty accurate assessment of what you've been through. When you did indeed finally get to that point where you were able to grieve, you were able to give yourself a little bit of, you use the word all the time on the show, Warwick, you were able to give yourself a little bit of grace, and that helped the forward momentum, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

It did. I mean, it would've been helpful if somebody had told me, or if I'd read somewhere, grieving is a natural part of the process. Yes, the grief won't completely go away, but it'll become more manageable. There'll be a scar rather than an open wound. This whole aphorism, this too shall pass. There will be a new day. The sun will come up. I know it may be hard to believe. And that wouldn't have just stopped all the pain instantly, but it would've given me some hope that this is part of the process, that things will get better.




Gary Schneeberger:

I hadn't thought about this till just now, but do you think that Beyond the Crucible, everything that you've tried to do through this podcast, through all that you've done at Beyond The Crucible, your book, all of the offerings that we have, is that a conscious decision, or maybe it was an unconscious decision for you to offer that lifeline to other people who are going through this? I mean, I don't know if you made that determination, like click, I'm going to go help people do this. But what you've described feeling like you didn't have the right to do it, you are extending every week on this show the right for them to do it. That has got to feel rewarding.




Warwick Fairfax:

It absolutely does. I mean, it's one of the key motivations for what I do with Beyond The Crucible is, we'll talk about this later, and we're skipping to point three, but don't let your worst day define you. And we'll talk about that more in a bit. But it's really giving folks hope. When I was reflecting in the weeks and months after that talk in church in 2008, and people telling me, "Hey, your story really helped me." I'm thinking, I know it's going to be painful writing this book because, yes, I talk about inspirational leaders and historical leaders and other members of my family, but the core of it is my story and reliving my most painful days. And it was very painful writing about it. I mean, after two or three hours a day, I was done. I couldn't do anymore. I had to recoup and hopefully find some strength the next day.

So it was painful. But what kept me going is, if this can help one person or more face the crucible they've gone through and find a way to have hope, find a way to bounce back, that was really, it's always been the mission of Beyond the Crucible is to help people in their darkest time, their darkest hour. At the end of pretty much every podcast, I ask a question, something like, for many listeners today may be their worst day. They may be at the bottom of the pit. They may have no hope. They can't see any light at the end of the tunnel. What would a word of hope you would have for somebody who today is their worst day?

Now, why do I ask that question? It's because that's, if you will, my focus of what we do is for people who today may be their worst day. So that is absolutely the animating driving force mission behind what we do. And I mean, it's conscious and subconscious. When I wrote the book, I may not have used those words, but I was thinking I want to help people who've gone through what I've gone through and have hope. Some of it was subconscious, some of it was conscious, but that was always the thought, always the mission.




Gary Schneeberger:

And don't worry about getting out of order. I mean, this is all a big soup of help. We're just putting ingredients in the help soup here as we're going through it. Because we are. It's an interesting discussion because we're dealing with what you went through, but also then how you've leveraged what you went through to help others going through the same thing. So a lot of these things are kind of mixed together, and that's a good thing. Because when you're dealing with something as emotional as a crucible experience, you're going to grab whatever lifeline comes by.

And the second point in the blog is a really good lifeline, I think, that you wished had been extended to you. And that is feeling broken does not mean you are worthless. I'm going to say it again, listener, so you catch it, you make sure you catch it. Feeling broken, like you do after a crucible, in the midst of a crucible, at the bottom of the pit, that does not mean you are worthless. Why did you make this the second point of the blog and how does it speak to your own experience?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, Gary, I was broken. My mission in life, my reason for being on this earth, getting good grades in school, working hard, not wanting to be one of these dilettante kind of rich kids, humility being my highest value, or certainly one of them, Oxford, Wall Street, Harvard Business School. I spent my life serving a mission that I felt was almost like a holy cause, a sacred calling. A family business, newspaper business that plays a role in the nation of Australia. It just felt like this incredible cause that I was born into.

And so when the company went under, I just felt broken, worthless, the reason for me being on this Earth is gone. What was the point of it all? Oxford, Harvard Business School, all the work, all the effort, I just blew it by my stupidity. I mean, there was a book written in that time, late '80s, early '90s, the central premise was Warwick could have had it all. Eventually, it might have taken a few decades, but eventually I would've been the leading shareholder in the family, just in terms of the way inheritance and various things worked out. If only he'd waited, he could have been head of this company. But because of his folly and naivety, he didn't.

And yes, there's some truth in that. But obviously I felt like, oh, the company isn't going to be around, or because of the stupidity in management. It doesn't matter whether my assumptions were right or wrong, but that was my feeling. And so I really felt broken and worthless, and it was very hard to come back from that. I mean, I did. My paradigm shifted a bit. But I felt both those things, that I felt broken and worthless, and that's a terrible feeling.




Gary Schneeberger:

We've talked to many guests. You mentioned Adam Vibe Gunton who said a couple of times that he felt as if he just wanted to die, right? We've had other guests tell us that. That moment of I can't take this anymore. Not just the brokenness, but the emotional, then humiliation of feeling worthless. What was the turnaround for you? How did you get past that feeling? Because we're not having this conversation if Warwick Fairfax didn't get past that feeling.




Warwick Fairfax:

That's very true. I guess, especially since the Evangelical Church at Oxford, I'd been a person of faith. That was late March 1982 for me. So we're now talking the early '90s, I guess my paradigm shifted. I went from God had a plan for my life to resurrect the company in the image of the founder, John Fairfax. I'm a believer, he was a believer. I blew God's plan, which as I mentioned, was the most excruciating part of this whole crucible experience. It was the tip of the spear, if you will, going through my heart.

But what changed is I began to realize, despite my stupidity, and in all fairness, a lot of it was my fault, but not all of it, it was very complicated. A lot of things going back decades as I mentioned. But if God had wanted it to work out, he would have. So God's sovereign will, from my perspective, he has a plan. And you might believe it's God, the creator, however you look at it.

But I also came to realize that God loves us unconditionally, even when we make mistakes, which we all do, God loves us no matter what. So I came to realize God does have a plan for my life. It just may not be the one I thought it was. My hubris, naivety, and youth, but that unconditional love that we are loved because, I think Psalm 139 talks about we're wonderfully and beautifully made. That sense that we have innate worth and value as human beings, it's one thing to realize a proposition. It's another thing for a proposition to work its way through the pain and the agony and the darkness that has worked through your soul.

But over time, it didn't happen like a flash of light, over time, I came to realize that is true. And I've used this image like a man clinging to a mast in a raging storm. I clung to that view that, as human beings, we have innate value. God does have a plan for our lives. And we have inherent worth, and there is a plan out there. I clung to that. And drop by drop, like drops of grace, it began to give me hope. This fundamental change in my thinking, it began to give myself hope.




Gary Schneeberger:

I found a quote that I'm going to steal after we're done, and you may want to steal it yourself. It's a really good quote about this very issue of feeling broken does not mean you're worthless. And that's by Rumi. And the quote is this, "The wound is the place where light enters you." That is something special. That's good. The wound is the place where light enters you, right? And that's what you've just described, Warwick, is that in that wound entered this bedrock belief that grew and grew and grew and grew, that you have inherent value. And led you to create Beyond the Crucible, which lets other people know they also have inherent value. Safe to say that without the brokenness, you could have skipped over, you probably wish you could've skipped over the worthless feeling, but without the brokenness, again, we wouldn't be sitting here having a conversation about Beyond the Crucible, would we?




Warwick Fairfax:

It's profoundly true, Gary. Yeah, sometimes the light, as you said so well, does come through that wound. And yeah, in hindsight it did for me. Out of that sense of brokenness and pain came a mission, as we'll say here in a bit, to help people not be defined by their worst day, to give people hope. As I've spoken to people, and people have found some sense of hope and healing, that obviously gives me some degree of further healing. So it's hard to think of it at the time, but without that crucible and the pain and the brokenness, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.

I've often thought if I was smarter, I don't know that I would've been happier, which sounds a bit crazy, because if I'd been smarter, listened to the good advisors who said in early '87, "The numbers don't add up," and these were blue chip merchant bankers, as we call it, which is Australian English speak for investment bankers, "The numbers don't add up. If there's a hostile takeover," I was afraid of, "well then gather the family round, wait a few decades, try and get on with other people. Not just listen to the stories you heard growing up or what have you." I mean, there's a long list of things that I could have been smarter about.

But would I have been happier? I would've been trapped in this gilded cage. There always would've been different factions within the family. And it's a large company. As I often say, it didn't really fit my design. I'm more of a reflective advisor, somewhat philosophical. I'm not a take charge, take no prisoners chief executive type. So a lot of reasons it really didn't fit. But if I'd been smarter, I could have been trapped in this company. I mean, very comfortable definitely. I could have been hundreds of millions of dollars more comfortable, if not more than hundreds of millions. And so great. But I don't know that I would've been happy. I would've been trapped in a role that I didn't enjoy, worrying about different factions and what's going on and what's going on behind the scenes and management and all.




Gary Schneeberger:

That is a powerful thing for you to say. Because remember, listener, when we started off, Warwick, and you've heard it before, the failure, in this country we think money is going to make us all happy. If I just had more money, I'd be happier. The failure was $2.25 billion. That was in 1990 money. Today, think of what that could have grown to. So that's a profound statement. I used your word, you say profound a lot on the show, I just used your word, that's a profound statement that you wouldn't necessarily have been happier. In fact, in many ways you would've been not happier.

We are going through, listener, Warwick's latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com called Four Things I Wish I Knew In my Darkest Time. We are moving on now to point three. We've teased it a couple times, sort of like a coming attractions trailer. But the third point in the blog, Warwick, that you wish you would've known, that someone would've told you, or that it would've been on - right - in the syllabus at Oxford, at HBS. This idea that you are not defined, we are not defined, by our worst day. That's one of the top three. If this was Match Game, and I had to pick the top three answers of what Warwick Fairfax says the most on this show, somewhere in the top three would be we are not defined by our worst day. So why was that point, again, of only four you have in this blog, why was that point so important for you to include in this blog?




Warwick Fairfax:

We have a number of sayings, a number of things we believe are true on Beyond the Crucible. But this idea that we are not defined by our worst day, that is close to number one of the truths that we talk about at Beyond the Crucible. So what it means, we're not defined by our worst day, it's we all have mistakes and failures. We all have times in which things go wrong. And it's easy to think, as I did, I thought I was defined by my worst day. I thought my life is over, 150 year old family business founded by a strong believer, I'm a believer, I blew his legacy, caused splits within the family, instability and uncertainty with 4,000 plus employees, et cetera, et cetera.

But I came to realize in hindsight that I was not defined by that. Yes, it's part of my story, but I'm using that to help others. There have been better days. I have three wonderful children. I have a wife of over 30 years. I'm so blessed in so many ways. I've been on two nonprofit boards. I love what I do at Beyond The Crucible. I'm just incredibly blessed and grateful. I could not have foreseen that on my worst day. My life has not been defined by my worst day. It has absolutely not been defined by it. And so that's really one of our central, if not the central, mission of Beyond the Crucible, to help our listeners, to help everybody understand that you are not defined by your worst day. There can be a better day.

We talk a lot about learning the lessons of your crucible that can lead to a vision we call a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. But it all begins, and we use the word choice a lot at Beyond the Crucible, you have to make a choice. Maybe it's not on your worst day because you got to have a bit of room to process and grieve, but ultimately you've got to make a choice, sooner rather than later, to say "I will not let this define me." I'm going to find a way to move forward. I might not have the answers right now, but I'm going to find a way to move forward and I'm not going to let this one mistake or this one terrible circumstance that happened to me be the defining moment in my life. It's going to be one of the toughest moments, but it will not be the defining moment. And I'm going to make that choice to not let that day define me and define my life.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have a question to ask after I ask this one. So sort of give me a yes or no, or a very quick answer when I ask this one. That realization was not all inclusive. It wasn't one and done. It's still, I mean, that's still in process in some ways, isn't it?




Warwick Fairfax:

I think that's fair to a degree.




Gary Schneeberger:

Here's why I ask that question because one of my favorite moments in working with you, Warwick, was when you were preparing for a speech that you were going to give. And every time you had prepared for this speech before you were talking about your crucible, you were talking about the failed takeover of the family media company. And then you talked about the speech you gave in church and people were moved by it. You couldn't understand how people were moved by a speech you gave because, and you said this, you would say this in the first 25 times, I heard you say it as you were practicing, you would say, "I looked around, I didn't understand how this could resonate with people because I did not see any other failed media moguls in the congregation." You always used the word failed media mogul.

And then one day when you were preparing for a speech, we were sitting in your study at your house, we were sitting in your house, you were preparing for your speech, and you said, "I looked around and I didn't see any other former media moguls." And I was like, that's it, right? That was that moment when you weren't defined by your worst day anymore. You didn't use a word that had defined you for so long, failure. You took it out, you deleted it, you threw it out. That was a powerful moment to watch you go through.

What does that liberation feel like? When you're in stage three, when you're in, you're not defined by your worst day, just emotionally, because we talk a lot about emotions here, what does it emotionally feel like to be beyond that? Even if it's only 85, 95% of it, you're mostly behind it all the time. It's very, very small. What does that feel like? So listeners who may be having their worst day today will know what to look for.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, that's a great question, Gary. You're right to pick up on that. I mean, that says subconsciously a lot to go from failed to former. Former is more a statement of reality. There's less emotion behind it. Failed is similar to I am a failure. It would be a synonym in this case. Not always, but in this case, failed meant failure. I am a failure forever was the subtext. So yeah, I can obviously, because of what I do and we do, I talk about the failed takeover. But yeah, it's more objectively talking about what happened.

I don't give a talk, and have to go in my room and sob for a few hours or something. I mean, those days did exist, but they don't happen. At least I can't remember it happening often, if ever, for a long, long time. Doesn't mean there twinges every once in a while. People use this word often today, and rightly so, being triggered. Yes, I'll be triggered occasionally by something, something I read or wherever. An article in an Australian paper that references me. Or there was some cartoon in the last few years that wasn't overly favorable.




Gary Schneeberger:

Correct. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. But yeah, it's subconsciously being able to say, as I've said more recently, that what I went through was a gift. I couldn't say that five years ago. I'm not sure I could have said that two or three years ago. But being able to say former and not failed, that what I went through was a gift in some sense, because I wouldn't be where I am without that, to have some sense of gratitude. I've used words like freedom, liberation from the situation I was in. So that's a very significant mind shift and heart shift and soul shift, if you will.

So back to your question, today, it may be your worst day, it may be hard to fathom. I understand how that could be. But it's true for me, and it's true for many if not most of the guests we've had on the podcast, they haven't been defined by their worst day. They've made a choice to move forward. And yes, I don't know that you can get 100% healed, saying, oh, there won't be any scar. There'll be scars. But yet, can you get to 80, 85, 90% of feeling like you're healed or less broken? I absolutely think that is possible. I absolutely think it's possible.




Gary Schneeberger:

And I love, and I didn't realize I loved it till right now, that you used the word defined here. You're not defined by your worst day. Because what you've just been talking about are new definitions that you've added in to define your worst day. It was a gift. In many ways, in important ways, it was a gift. You're not a failed anything. You're a former something. All of those words, the way that we talk about ourselves, going back to the second point here, just this idea that just because you're broken, you're not worthless. Hanging those adjectives on ourselves, not a good thing. And what you've just described, you've defined a new position that you're in as you're moving through this. And that kind of freedom, you've described this as feeling freeing, that kind of freedom is available to all of you within the sound of my voice.

And we'll move on to the fourth point in this blog, which is the way you put your foot on the step that will lead you there. We talked about this idea of realizing that you need to give yourself permission to grieve. That's sort of the starter's pistol to a life of significance. This fourth point is the start of the physical journey to that place. And that is this, your fourth point, Warwick is a small step forward can be a defining moment. Talk about that a little bit. Because I know for you, and I know for a lot of guests we've had on the show, that is so, so, so true.




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah. If one of the defining mantras or concepts is your worst day doesn't define you, one of the single most important pieces of advice that I and every guest has shared that I can think of is this concept that a small step forward can be a defining moment, can be huge. For most, I remember we had a series last fall, Second Act Significance, and we had Erik and Emily Orton on. And they sailed around the Caribbean. They've got this whole course about helping people lead kind of worthwhile lives and all.

But it all began when Erik was looking out the window of his Manhattan skyscraper. He was in theater production, and Wicked, I believe. And then he went to start a small production, which basically went under and he lost everything. And he was feeling sorry for himself. And he's looking out the window and he sees these sailboats going down outside of Manhattan. And he's thinking, I'd love to learn how to sail. Now you would think that wasn't a big step, but it was a small step, but in some sense it was the biggest step. And he would say it was maybe the toughest step. Why should that be so tough? But it was very different than what he'd done. And for some reason, the next steps about getting his family to learn how to sail, and then eventually, hey, let's sail around the Caribbean with the whole family, we can be together with his kids. Those were further steps. But the biggest step, the hardest step was the first step, which is sort of interesting.

So for me, one small step I made was we were in Chicago for about nine months in 1991. So company goes under in December 1990. Soon thereafter, we go to Chicago, where my wife had lived for about 10 years before we met in Australia. And I remember thinking, it's cold and it's a big city. And we had friends in Maryland, Annapolis, and they said, "Well, why don't you kind of move here for a few months orIsix months?" And I thought it might be good to give myself a change of location, smaller town. Being from Australia, nicer weather. Did that change everything? No. Did my attitude improve overnight? Did I say, hallelujah, I'm feeling great about myself, hooray? No. But it was a small step. It felt like a small positive step forward to just be in a different environment and we were going to create a new life.

Maybe that's why it was a small step. We were going to create, my wife and I, and she was in the early months of 1991, she was pregnant with our first son, Will. But it was an important step. And there were in steps after that, like the talk in church. Small step after that was, I think I'm going to write a book about this. Not quite sure how it's going to evolve, but I'm going to start writing. And it evolved, and there was a series of steps.

But the power of making a small step forward rather than me just sitting in that small house in Chicago that used to be... My wife Gale's grandfather, built it in the '30s or something. It's a nice, small little house. Two room house, one bathroom. I could said, well, let's just stay here. And it has a basement. So I could have gone to the basement, sort of unfinished basement, and sat there for, I don't know, several decades. And eventually somebody probably would've pushed us out, or say, "Hey, we need to use it for other people," or, "Need to sell it." Couldn't have stayed there forever. We didn't own it. It was owned by my father-in-law. But still metaphorically, I could have stayed in that basement in Chicago for decades, and just moaned and groaned and felt sorry for myself. But that's never the answer.




Gary Schneeberger:

What you've described there, you talked about first small step, moving to the US, moving to Maryland, starting your family. But then you added in some other steps, and then one step led to another step, led to another step. And there's a phrase that you coined recently here at Beyond the Crucible, which I've determined if we ever have a house band like they do on the Tonight Show, we're going to name the house band this. But that phrase that you coined is what?




Warwick Fairfax:

I'm blanking out here. You're going to have to remind me.




Gary Schneeberger:

That's how many things of import come out of Warwick's mouth. You can't remember them all. Flywheel of hope, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Amen.




Gary Schneeberger:

It creates a flywheel of hope. What you just described, Warwick, of you moving, then you started this and you did this, it was a flywheel of hope. And what that did is it then spun into what's happening for you right now. And that is where hope is really coming alive for you and for our constituents here at Beyond the Crucible. That is kind of where your life of significance is right now, is at Beyond the Crucible, right?




Warwick Fairfax:

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean flywheel of hope, even if I/we thought of it, maybe it's not humble, but forgive me, but I do really like that phrase.




Gary Schneeberger:

Yeah, it's great.




Warwick Fairfax:

Because it's true. And just like with Erik Orton, that one little turn to the flywheel led to him taking lessons, having lessons with his family, sailing around the Caribbean. Then a whole mission to help other people find meaning and purpose. Once the flywheel starts going, the next steps are easier. And so sometimes it takes a while to get cranking. I know for me, there are a few years as we're starting a new family that definitely gave life hope and meaning. It's sort of amazing when you have young kids. You come home, and they kind of just run to you and hug you, and with this immense, unconditional love. It's almost hard to process the unconditional love of your kids, especially when you're broken. It's hard to comprehend that kind of love, but it's incredibly meaningful and healing. So it wasn't easy in the '90s. That flywheel took a while to get going for me, I got to say.




Gary Schneeberger:

Well, flywheels crank a little bit. It takes a while to get them cranked up.




Warwick Fairfax:

The first couple cranks can be slow, but around about '96 or something when I got a job in a local aviation services firm, this was just kind of pre-internet, so didn't really know who I was. So I was working in financial business marketing analysis. Got good performance reviews. Yes, I had my cubicle moment when I realized I wasn't using all my skills and abilities for God or for some greater purpose.

But that was an important part of the flywheel of hope because I felt like maybe this isn't the ideal job, but I was doing it well, and I was working hard, as I always do, in everything I do. It's one of my highest values. I was getting very good performance reviews. Now, I respected the bosses I had and just tried to the best of my ability serve them and what they were trying to do. So the flywheel started cranking faster at that point. And it's cranked. There'd been moments where it's cranked faster with each decision, at each moment to move forward. But it's not easy to see when you're looking back, okay, we're going to move to Annapolis, Maryland. Okay. What's that going to mean? But that was part of the flywheel moving forward. And you have to believe that it will lead to other things if you just keep having that flywheel of hope perspective.




Gary Schneeberger:

Right. And that's when a one small step becomes one major moment in your life. One of the quotes I pulled, and I have bad luck pulling quotes in that they're really good quotes, but there's always a name I can't pronounce. It's like I'm going to get this wrong. This is a quote, I'm going to guess the name is Lamine Pearlheart. It's a quote from Lamine. "It's the little keys that open big doors." That's another mic drop moment for me. It's the little keys that open big doors. It's that one small step that can then trigger that flywheel of hope. And next thing you know, you've created Beyond the Crucible, and you're helping all of these people, including listeners to this podcast, get over their worst day. Understand their worst day doesn't define them.

So we've gone through the four points of the blog just to remind listeners what they are. I'm going to keep talking and stretching it out till I can read them again. Here we go. The first thing that you wish you had known after your crucible moment was it's okay to give yourself permission to grieve. Second thing was feeling broken does not mean you are worthless. Point three, we are not defined by our worst day. And point four is on the other side of this piece of paper. Here it is. Point four is a small step forward can be a defining moment.

All of this stuff, listener, again, all of these insights are on Warwick's latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com. Before we get into what you always end your blogs with, really insightful reflection questions, summarize what we've been through, Warwick. I'll flip your question on you. Why do you think these four points, the way you've articulated them in the blog, in this podcast, how and why do you think that will offer hope to folks who are listening and folks who will be reading?




Warwick Fairfax:

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think it just starts with this notion that your worst day doesn't have to define you. That we may be feel broken, but you're not broken forever. Shards like the Japanese pottery. I think it's-




Gary Schneeberger:

Kintsugi.




Warwick Fairfax:

There you go.




Gary Schneeberger:

Kintsugi.




Warwick Fairfax:

Exactly. You can sort of glue those pieces together, and obviously in kintsugi it's like gold paste, if you will, to glue them together. So you may feel broken, but you're not broken forever. You're not worthless, you're not defined by your worst day. It's really realizing that you're not just defined by your worst day, but you won't be in that pit forever. It's a moment in time, and you have a choice to move forward. Sometimes there are consequences, I realize, depending on the crucible, but there can be a better day.

And really part of it too is realizing, if you have a purpose and a mission in life, we talk about the value of a life of significance, life on purpose dedicated to serving others, and there is some healing. There is some worthwhile, I mean, I enjoy writing, I love hearing other people's stories on the podcast because I learned so much for my own life. I'm a reflective person, so I can't tell you how many times I've listened to podcast guests and going, boy, I love what they said. And just really trying to think about that. What does it do for my viewpoint in my life?

So I feel like what I'm doing now is a blessing because, in my own small way, I am trying to lead a life of significance, to serve others, to have a higher sense of purpose. So yeah, I believe that your worst day does not have to define you. You don't have to be in that pit forever. You just have to start taking some of the steps we talked about. Move forward, take those small steps. And part of what maybe pulls you out of the pit is, when you have that sense of higher purpose, a vision of how this could help people, it's like there's a rope being dangled down the pit, pulling you up out of that pit. And so, assuming that the cliff has some footholds and handholds, you can try and get out of it by yourself. But when you have that vision, it really helps you get out of the pit faster.




Gary Schneeberger:

You've mentioned a couple times here on this episode, Warwick, that you're a reflective person and you always end your blogs with questions of reflection. And listener, I encourage you to listen to these, and to truly reflect on them because part of the way you're going to get meaning that you can apply to your life out of this discussion is to reflect on these questions.

So question one is is there some area in your life where you need to give yourself permission to grieve? Do you feel like you need to journal, or talk to a friend, or seek some counseling? And Warwick didn't write this here, but I'm going to add it here, then do it. Take that first step. It may not feel like a small step, but take that first step. Do it. If you feel like you should do it, do it. The rewards will be great as you move through.

Second point of reflection, what can you do to help you feel that you may be broken, but that you still have worth and value? Do you feel called to read and meditate on a spiritual or philosophical way of thought? Is there someone you know who can give you some positive encouragement? Words of affirmation will knock out those words of degradation all the time. Speak them to yourself and surround yourself with people who can speak them to you. And then the third point of reflection, what one small step can you take that will give you a glimmer of hope that there is a way out of the pit? I'll add something after that too, ponder it, reflect on it, and then have the courage to take that step. Warwick, we've come to the end of our conversation. What would you like to leave listeners with before we go?




Warwick Fairfax:

On your worst day, it is hard to have hope. It's hard if somebody says, "Oh, you know, this too shall pass," which is sometimes people's least favorite aphorism. It's like, oh, it's easy for you to say. You're not where I am. Thank you so much. But I guess you just have to take this leap of faith. You have to make a choice that the pain may be excruciating, but you've got to believe that there is a way out, that there is a glimmer of light, even if you can't see it. Because if you say there is no hope, there is no glimmer of light, then there won't be. Your words will become reality. Your words will put like a cement block on top of that pit.




Gary Schneeberger:

I have been in the communications business long enough, I say all the time, when I know the last word has been spoken on a subject. And Warwick just spoke it about our robust discussion about his latest blog at beyondthecrucible.com. So until the next time we're together, folks, remember this. You've heard it throughout this entire episode. We understand. Warwick understands truly. He talked about it, how painful crucibles are. His was painful, mine was painful, yours are painful. But remember this too, that there is a flywheel of hope. There is a way to get out of the pit. There is a way to move beyond it to set a course for the next stage of your life, the next act of your life, which can be the most rewarding act of your life because where it leads to is a life of significance.

If you enjoyed this episode, learned something from it, we invite you to engage more deeply with those of us at Beyond The Crucible. Visit our website, beyondthecrucible.com, to explore a plethora of offerings to help you transform what's been broken into breakthrough. A great place to start, our free online assessment, which will help you pinpoint where you are on your journey beyond your crucible, and to chart a course forward. See you next week.