We are in the middle of a special summer podcast series at BEYOND THE CRUCIBLE we’re calling Lights, Cameras, Crucibles: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure. It’s been fun for me, both as cohost of the show and as a movie and hero fan since childhood, to dive into these insightful and practical discussions with Warwick for what will wind up being eight weeks in duration.
It occurs to me, though, that some friends of Crucible Leadership might be wondering why we’d spend so much time – two months – talking about fictional characters and the therefore fictional crucibles they’ve faced. With so many real-life men and women who’ve had all-too-real traumas and tragedies, isn’t it more important to focus on their stories?
Of course, there is great inspiration that comes from hearing the journeys of those who are navigating beyond their crucibles to live lives of significance. Those are the individuals, after all, whose stories we usually bring to listeners of the podcast. But as an article a few years ago in Psychology Today pointed out, there are surprising ways fictional heroes improve our lives. And in addition to unpacking the lessons these characters can teach us about moving beyond setbacks and failures, we also wanted to offer the truths discussed in that article.
So, as you continue diving into Lights, Camera, Crucibles, keep these points in mind from Psychology Today.
Heroes produce an emotion called “elevation”
As the article by Scott T. Allison from April 6, 2014, notes, research suggests heroes and heroic action may evoke a unique emotional response that scientists have labeled “elevation.” The term and the concept undergirding it come from Thomas Jefferson, who used the phrase “moral elevation” to describe the euphoric feeling we get when reading great literature.
When we experience elevation, Allison wrote, we feel a mix of awe, reverence and admiration elicited by a morally beautiful act. Think about it: When Spider-Man rescues Mary Jane and defeats the Green Goblin, or Batman saves Gotham City from the Joker’s latest scheme to terrorize innocent civilians, or John McClane defeats the terrorists who’ve laid siege to Nakatomi Plaza on Christmas Eve in Die Hard, don’t you experience the climactic moment(s) with a sense of elevation, satisfaction and euphoria that the white hats have triumphed over the black hats?
Heroes heal our psychic wounds
In ancient cultures, tribe members huddled around a communal fire at the end of each day, gathering together for warmth, yes, but also for protection. These acts of coming together also included another key activity—storytelling. And these initial stories were quite likely tales of heroes and heroic action, related in part to add to the sense of protection. Those listening felt safer knowing that forces of good were out there preserving their safety. That’s why so many modern hero stories exist in multiple iterations. Robin Hood has been a film staple since the silent-movie era because we are comforted when we imagine there’s someone dedicated to battling the forces of oppression to make life more livable, more enjoyable, more safe, for the marginalized and maligned.
Heroes nourish our connections with other people
Storytelling is a community-building activity, Allison writes. The sense of connectivity it builds is critical to human emotional well-being. Hero stories create a strong sense of social identity, especially if the hero is a winning one – not just in outcome but in character and personality. The best, most resonant heroes reflect and reinforce the community’s most cherished values. Captain America’s character, Coach Norman Dale’s humble redemption in Hoosiers and Spider-Man’s sacrificial love for those closest to him give us something to aim for in our relationships.
Heroes show us how to transform our lives, turning us into heroes ourselves.
Comparative mythologist Joseph Campbell said in 1988 that all of us undergo a hero-like journey throughout our lives. It’s only by having the courage and faith to risk change and growth in our own lives that we reach our own potential. It is nearly impossible to watch any of the movies we are discussing in our series and not feel the pull to a similar brand of heroism – not saving the world though superpowers, maybe, but dedicating our lives and gifts to serving others in ways similar to how a superhero, or action hero, or sports hero lives a life on purpose dedicated to serving others.
Psychologist Eric Erikson’s stages of human development, as discussed by Allison, posits that adults grow in significant ways as they gain age and experience, then in mid-life reach a stage of generativity, which Erikson defines as pouring something meaningful back into the society that has given them so much.
That sounds like living a life of significance, doesn’t it?
Reflection
What movie hero – superhero, action hero or sports hero – is your favorite? In what ways does he or she inspire “elevation” in you as described above?
What hero movies built more meaningful connections for you with others? What specifically about the hero(es) made that happen?
Have you ever been so moved by a hero in a movie that it prompted you to act heroically yourself as explained above? How so? Why do you think it affected you that way?
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“Rise and Rise again, until lambs become lions.” There’s a motto to live a life of significance by, to inspire not just perseverance in the face of crucibles, but noble triumph over them. It’s the central truth explored in this episode of the summer series LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure. Host Warwick Fairfax and cohost Gary Schneeberger discuss the many lessons to learned from ROBIN HOOD, particularly the Russell Crowe version of the film, in which a common archer preserves England’s sovereignty and becomes a champion of the downtrodden and dismissed. Robin finds a life and builds a legacy of significance by cultivating his character and putting the needs of others ahead of his own wants. Be sure to catch the intermission – this is a series about movies, right? – where Warwick and Gary discuss the versions of the Robin Hood legend that have resonated the most for them for decades.
Highlights
Why we chose Robin Hood for this series (4:03)
The character’s rich cinematic history (7:00)
How Robin Hood leaves success behind to pursue significance (10:03)
The original film depiction of Robion Hood in 1922 (11:38)
Why Robin Hood has been around so long (13:32)
How Robin Hood is like James Bond (15:36)
His similarities to Spider-Man (18:19)
The scene that depicts Robin’s character (21:23)
The king’s righthand man is not an honest man (30:34)
You can’t inherit a vision — or nobility of character (33:19)
The knights in Warwick’s family tree (36:50)
“Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions” (40:51)
Intermission: Warwick and Gary share their favorite version of Robin Hood (43:11)
Longstride begins to find his purpose … while pretending to be someone else (52:41)
The legacy his father left him (55:49)
The origin of the Magna Carta (1:01:36)
The power of one small step (1:06:50)
Robin Hood becomes an outlaw (1:09:55)
Warwick’s final thoughts (1:14:28)
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Sir Walter Locksley:
You need to know what I know. Your father was a stone mason. Is that pleasing to you?
Robin Longstride:
Yes, it is.
Sir Walter Locksley:
But he was more than that. He was a visionary.
Robin Longstride:
What did he see?
Sir Walter Locksley:
That kings have a need of their subjects, no less than their subjects have need of kings. A dangerous idea. Your father was a philosopher. He had a way of speaking that took you by the ears and by the heart.
Robin Longstride's Father:
None of these things can be written down, Robin. You must commit them to your very soul. This is the science of memory.
Robin Longstride:
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions.
Sir Walter Locksley:
Finally, hundreds listen, thousands, who took up his call for the rights of all ranks from baron to serf.
Robin Longstride:
Rise and rise again until lambs become lions.
Gary Schneeberger:
Now there's a motto to live a life of significance by. To inspire, not just perseverance in the face of crucibles, but noble triumph over them. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. This week on our special summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, what our favorite movie heroes can teach us about overcoming setbacks and failure, Warwick and I discuss the lessons to learn from Robin Hood. We'll spend most of our time discussing the Russell Crowe version of the film, from which that clip you heard was taken, in which a common archer preserves England's sovereignty and becomes a champion of the downtrodden and dismissed.
Gary Schneeberger:
Robin finds a life and builds a legacy of significance by cultivating his character and putting the needs of others ahead of his own wants. And don't miss our intermission. The series is about movies, right? Where Warwick and I discuss the versions of the Robin Hood legend that have resonated the most for us for decades. Spoiler alert, mine involves Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby. The reason why, listener, this is going to be a lot of fun is that this is part of our series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, what your favorite movie heroes can teach you about overcoming setback and failure. And this week's exploration is on a subject, on a movie hero, that that has meant a lot to Warwick since he was a boy, as we'll talk about here. And before I say said character's name, I'm just going to do this, so you can see who we might be talking about today.
Gary Schneeberger:
Warwick, there you go. It is indeed, Robin Hood. It's why I've got an arrow here on my jacket. And that's why if you're listening, not watching on YouTube, you have no idea why we just laughed. I've put a Robin Hood felt hat on my head. So, I very commonly wear hats on the show. I will not wear this one the whole episode though, Warwick, because it'll probably distract you. So I'll take it off now, but there it goes. So, that was my way of making sure I was on brand here for our discussion of Robin Hood. The reason that we chose Robin Hood, listeners, is one of the things that we try to do with every hero that we select is: what are the key learnings from the movie experience of that hero that apply to what Crucible Leadership aims to help you to do?
Gary Schneeberger:
And that is to overcome your setbacks and failures and lead a life of significance. And Robin Hood is a great example of that. And I'm going to throw out a couple of biographical notes, and then I'm going to let Warwick sort of explain a little more about it. But Robin Hood, as you all know... If you know only a little of him, he's the guy who takes from the rich and gives to the poor. And he's a legendary heroic outlaw depicted originally in English folklore, and then subsequently featured in a lot of literature and a lot of film.
Gary Schneeberger:
According to legend, he was a highly skilled archer and swordsman. In some versions of the legends, he's depicted as being of noble birth. In some modern versions, he's depicted as being a yeoman. But some of the general beats that are there for all of them is, he's taken part in the crusades or he's served King Richard who was running the crusades, and he's often dressed in this hat that I was just wearing. But it's that idea of fighting for the oppressed, and helping them become less oppressed, I think is sort of the headline of who Robin Hood is if we had to nail it down to a tweet, right, Warwick?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Yeah. He's always fighting for the common man, common woman. Obviously, different adaptations. Kind of originally in the earliest myths dating to 1100-1200's and beyond, he was sort of this yeoman, common man figure. And then in later versions, and I don't know, 1600's through 1800s, he becomes a noble, I guess, because the writers of mythical fiction back then wanted him more to be this heroic noble figure. So yeah, there have been different versions of him, but he's this mythic person that fights for the oppressed against the rich and powerful.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's one of the things that I've found really interesting about it because I have not been a huge Robin Hood fan my whole life. He is big in America, as well, but certainly not as big as perhaps in England and Australia. But I sort of always assumed at some point in my life, I forget when I stopped assuming this, and he was based on a real life figure. And that has been something that historians have tried to prove over the years, but they had never been able to do it, have they? That Robin Hood was actually based on one person who actually existed.
Warwick Fairfax:
No, it is really a mythic heroic figure. And it's just fascinating, as I guess we'll get into, is just the different versions of him in film have changed a bit, but we'll get into this 2010 Russell Crowe movie we're going to chat about a lot here. If anything, that's more of the original story of Robin Hood. But the mythic figure I grew up with is really typified in the 1938 movie with Errol Flynn as Robin Hood, Olivia de Havilland as Maid Marian, and was The Adventures of Robin Hood. And so, that's sort of the classic version that pre-Russel Crowe, even the Kevin Costner version, that is what, today, people commonly think of as Robin Hood. He is this nobleman that goes off to the Crusades, at least in some of them, kind of comes back. King Richard is captured somewhere in Austria, I think it is, and is held for ransom for years. And so, Robin is back in England because he opposes then Prince John and his tyranny, he becomes an outlaw.
Warwick Fairfax:
So you have this nobleman who basically gives up his title, if you will, by fighting for the oppressed. And at the end of the 1938 movie, King Richard comes back and all is restored, and everything's good. So that is the classic tale, be it in Kevin Costner's version or in Errol Flynn's version. Wealthy nobleman, basically in a sense, puts everything on the line to fight for the oppressed, but at the end he has it restored. Anyway, that's the normal version, if you will, in the last, I don't know 80, 90 years of the Robin Hood myth.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's interesting to hear you explain it that way because we say often at Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible that success and significance aren't mutually exclusive. You can have success, and that success can be also part of a life of significance. What's interesting as I hear you describe Robin Hood in that way, in the traditional reading of the Errol Flynn film and the Kevin Costner film, he sort of had to cast success aside to find significance. He wasn't one who initially was able to meld those two together. He had to leave behind success. He had to become an outlaw. And then through that, in helping the oppressed, he found significance, and as you said, it's restored. But that's an interesting concept. There's not a whole lot of times we talk about that on this show, that success and significance don't exist in the same universe. In the universe of Robin Hood, many times, that's true. Success, as the world defines it, and significance do not coexist.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, sometimes you have to be willing to risk at all for the greater good. In really, every version of Robin Hood that's popular, it's never about him. In the 1938 classic version with Errol Flynn, not only does he want to rob from the rich, the oppressive King John, who was imposing ridiculously high taxes just to benefit his own wealth and coffers, but also he wants to help raise money to free King Richard in Austria, help raise ransom money.
Warwick Fairfax:
There's a wonderful scene in the 1938 movie when he is trying to explain to her, in the Sherwood Forest, what it is they do. And they've just plundered a whole bunch of stuff, taxes from some wealthy henchman of Prince John, and he asks his men, he says, "Men, should we divide up all this money, the spoils, for ourselves? Or should we use it to ransom King Richard in prison in Austria? What do we do, men?" And they all shout, "This is for King Richard." In other words, they could have used the money for themselves, but none of these men were about themselves. It's all about combating oppression and freeing their beloved King Richard, who wasn't perfect, but certainly was a way better king than Prince John.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, certainly better than his brother turned out to be for sure.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, man. In every version, Prince John, and then King John is the bad guy, which was true in real life.
Gary Schneeberger:
Sort of like guy Guy Gisbourne as the sheriff, right? I mean, he's a bad guy in all the versions, as well. Speaking of all the versions, you have talked a little bit here about the 1938 with Errol Flynn. We're going to really unpack the 2010 with Russell Crowe, but it all kind of begin filmically in 1922 with Douglas Fairbanks. And that is an interesting film because not only does it set Robin Hood on his filmic journey, but it's sort of the start, you could argue, of action heroes. You and I were talking beforehand here, and you said that Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone all owe a little bit of a debt of gratitude to Douglas Fairbanks. How so?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. So the original 1922 version starring Douglas Fairbanks, I mean, he did an early silent movie version of Zorro and pirates, swashbuckling movies. He was the original action hero swashbuckler that everybody from Errol Flynn onward owe a debt of gratitude. I mean, back in the twenties, he was the box office gold. Everybody wanted to see the latest swashbuckling Douglas Fairbanks action hero. He was married to another movie star, Mary Pickford, and arguably you could say they created Hollywood. Back in the early twenties, it wasn't a whole lot out there and with their movies, and they built this big house, Pickfair, somewhere in, I don't know, Beverly Hills, Hollywood, somewhere like that. It just became a magnet. So yeah, Douglas Fairbanks was huge in many ways, both in terms of helping to create the Hollywood that we now have, as well as just the original art in the story, the action heroes, an amazing guy.
Gary Schneeberger:
And all this that we've been kind of talking about, let's gather it up here and put it in perspective for the listeners. What makes Robin Hood so timeless and ageless, why he's still around these 80, 90 years, I can't do the math, is because of what he inspires in us, the viewers, right? And that's to live a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. If there was a logo for that aspect of what Crucible Leadership stands for, Robin Hood's a pretty good logo for that, isn't it? A life on purpose dedicated to serving others.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And in the Robin Hood myth and every version, putting everything on the line for your beliefs. It's almost like in the military, they say in the US, "Duty, honor, country." People go in the military knowing they may well have to risk their lives for their country. It's in one sense, you could say the ultimate noble sacrifice to... And in this particular case in the Robin Hood era, he is willing to lay down his life to combat forces of oppression, in this case, led by Prince, and then King John.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it's not about his own wealth, irrespective of the version. Whether he's a yeoman, common man in the 2010 Russell Crowe version, or Kevin Costner, Errol Flynn version where he's more of a wealthy nobleman, it's all about putting everything on the line, not just for a cause, but for a cause that's devoted to helping other people, right? That, in a sense, is the ultimate life of significance and that you were willing to risk everything to help others for a higher purpose for a life of significance. That's why it's such a compelling story and why people have been fascinated by the story of Robin Hood for years, if not centuries.
Gary Schneeberger:
And one of the things that's interesting about it, and we're going to get into talking now about the Russell Crowe 2010 version. But sort of to set the table for that, one of the things I found fascinating about looking through all these movies that have been based on the Robin Hood legend have drawn their inspiration from that is that, this movie, this 2010 movie, you're exactly right, it's lasted through generations and each generation has sort of gotten its own kind of Robin Hood. I liken it to... As I was watching this movie for this show, it made me think of James Bond. And I just so happened to be, aside from the work I do at Crucible Leadership here, I'm writing a book on the films of James Bond, and I've watched from Sean Connery through to then Daniel Craig. And what happens is, Sean Connery's kind of a rake, right? He's kind of charming and he's witty, and Daniel Craig is gritty and violent and really strong and powerful.
Gary Schneeberger:
And the same sort of thing can be said about the early Robin Hoods, and then to this 2010 with Russell Crowe. It's kind of like Daniel Craig's version of Bond, Russell Crowe's version of Robin Hood is very much for its time today. It wouldn't be boxing, right? Boxing's described as a sweet science, right? That's Errol Flynn's Robin Hood, I think. Russell Crowe's is MMA, mixed martial arts. It's much more physical and much more gritty. But yet, the importance, again, for our discussion, is that the beats of the story about dedicating your life to serve others and rising above crucibles, is a throughline through all of these iterations of it. The 2010 Robin Hood begins with a fantastic preamble. The preamble says this: "In times of tyranny and injustice, when law oppresses the people, the outlaw takes his place in history." This movie takes place, as most of the Robin Hood legends do, in 12th century England. That's a pretty good summary of what we're about to see in this movie, and frankly, what we see in all the Robin Hood depictions, most of them.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. It's all about Robin Hood as being this champion for the underdog in fighting against tyranny and injustice. I mean, sadly, tyranny and injustice have been around ever since there were humans. It's the nature of humans that there will be some that choose to oppress, even enslave others. And it's true of most, if not every culture, and it was certainly true in 12th century England, as we'll see later. The rise of Kings back then was pretty much absolute. They could do whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted. Pretty much no rules, none of this Marquis de Queensbury rule stuff like in boxing they had.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it's like, you're the king... At the risk of being slightly humorous, I'm reminded of that Mel Brooks movie, I think it's History of the World, Part II, or something. I don't care if there ever was a Part I, just started with Part II. And there's a scene where King Louis of France says, "It's good to be the king." And it's kind of like that. It's humorous in a way. It's good to be the king. You could do you could do whatever you wanted, bad for everybody else, but these were dark times.
Gary Schneeberger:
And speaking of Mel Brooks, even he did a Robin Hood movie. Robin Hood: Men in Tights, which was a comedy, which is funny in that Mel Brooks kind of way. I'm going to do something I haven't done in the series yet because you just have been talking about kings and absolute power. Our next episode is going to be on Spider-Man. And there's a key beat in the Spider-Man story. It varies from movie to movie on who tells it to him, but Spider-Man lives on with this belief, birthed from a crucible, birthed from pain, that with great power comes great responsibility. And that is what we're not seeing in the bad guys in Robin Hood. They have a lot of power, many of the rulers, but they're not living it responsibly. And that's where Robin, as he develops power, he continues to live responsibly.
Gary Schneeberger:
He starts out with no power living responsibly and as he begins to become a hero, he doesn't lose that sense of responsibility. The basic beats of this story, in Robin Hood 2010, King Richard the Lionheart, he's been away for a decade. He's fighting his crusade and he's away for 10 years, and the people, as you've indicated, have suffered because they don't have a leader with his character. They don't have a leader with his... He's not a perfect leader, but he's got a hearty character. The barons in the country are not united. They're all kind of operating independently. And everyday citizens are oppressed by greedy and unscrupulous leaders, including, as depicted in this film, the church is not non-complicit in what's going on. And into all of this backdrop, we meet Russell Crowe who plays Robin Longstride. Talk a little bit about Robin Longstride, as portrayed by Russell Crowe in this film, at the beginning, when we first meet him.
Warwick Fairfax:
So he is just this common man. He has been in the Crusades with King Richard. After 10 years, at least as depicted here, they're back in France, which at the medieval times, I don't know what, 1000, 1100 through maybe 1200, 1300's or so. England fought over various parts of France, not to get to in the weeds here, but at the time we're talking about, 1066, William the Conqueror of Normandy and Northern France conquered England. So, you had the Normans and the Saxons. Robin is of the sort of Saxon class, which was sort of oppressed in a sense at the time. So King Richard, after 10 years in the Crusade, he's in France and he is sort of one more siege away from returning to England, at least that's what they say in the movie. And so, here's Robin Longstride and he's just a regular guy.
Warwick Fairfax:
He's an archer. Certainly in English history at this time, for the next couple hundred years, the archers, the Longbowmen of England were sort of the ultimate weapon that other nations couldn't compete with. The ability to shoot these arrows from these massive bows, long distances, shoe armour. It's certainly around English history. So he was an archer, which certainly had some respect in the military back then, but he was a common man. He wasn't this nobleman. So, that's the Robin Longstride of this version. And in some sense, in the original myths of Robin Hood, that is in a sense back to the original myth, if you will.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he has a moment early on in this movie with King Richard. This is a very interesting... This is a great episode to be here, listener, because you're going to get a chance now to... And it's funny that we refer to things that don't show up in a final product as being on the cutting room floor. So Warwick had parts of his book, Crucible Leadership: Embrace Your Trials To Lead a Life of Significance, ended up on the cutting room floor. And now, we're talking about movies where the idea of a cutting room floor actually does really exist because they would cut film out and they would land on the cutting room floor. But there's a scene that helps explain the character, and by character, I mean the internal fortitude of Robin Longstride that you had originally put in your book, Crucible Leadership, to help people understand how you develop character, help people understand those kinds of things. So, unpack that a little bit. Let's kind of walk through that because it's a fascinating look at how you speak truth to power, I think is the headline on that.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, Gary. So originally in my book, in the current book I have a couple chapters that deal with organizational leadership. How do you organize a team of committed followers and that kind of thing. And so in the original version that was cut literally years ago, I had a scene from this 2010 version of Robin Hood. And in the movie, King Richard the Lionheart, he's laying siege to this castle in France, and he's chatting with Sir Robert Locksley, his right hand man, and he's feeling a bit melancholy that they're in his tent. And Sir Robert Locksley is saying, "They're going to rejoice when you come home." And King Richard says, "Well, I'm not so sure. My army knows better. The Lionheart is a bit mangy."
Warwick Fairfax:
He feels like some of the luster of his character has worn off a bit, a little bit of self awareness. He's sort of a bit melancholy. And so, Robert Locksley says, "But everybody in the army idealizes you." And he says, "Oh, come on." And so he says, "Let's see if we can find an honest man." He wants to see if he'll find an honest man in the English army that will tell him the truth. That's what he's looking for, and really credit to him, I suppose, for doing that. So somehow he comes along, slide this command arch Robin Longstride. So basically, there's a scene in which he ends up meeting him and, if you've seen the movie, you'll know the context, but he starts out the relevant portion of our dialogue by saying, "Are you honest enough," to Robin Longstride, "To tell the king something he doesn't want to hear? What's your opinion of my crusade? Will God be pleased with my sacrifice?"
Warwick Fairfax:
Now, that's about as tough a question as you're ever going to face. What's your opinion of the crusade? And will God be pleased with my sacrifice? And so, Robin takes a minute, and he looks at the king and says, "No, he won't." In other words, God won't be pleased with your sacrifice. I mean, in this day and age, as we said, Kings had absolute power, which meant that the king could have killed him on the spot. There's no Supreme Court, no appeals. I mean, you're literally taking your life in your own hands by saying that, and Robin did. And so obviously, Richard says, "Well, why do you say that?" And so Robin says, "The massacre at Acre..." Which was in the Middle East and in Palestine. And so Robin says, "You had us herd two and a half thousand Muslim men, and women, and children together and basically killed them."
Warwick Fairfax:
And he said, "There was a woman that just looked at me and she just had pity in her eyes. Not anger, but pity. And in that moment, Robin said, "We will be Godless. All of us, Godless." In other words, they were betraying their faith, they were betraying God. They're doing everything morally and spiritually that was abhorrent and absolutely wrong. So at that point, King Richard says, "Honest, brave, and naive." Clearly he was missing a few beats in his character, the fact that he could even think that was justifiable, that horrific act. And so what happened to... You would think he could have been executed at that point and ended the movie after 15 minutes. But no, he was put in the stockades, if you've seen those at fairs where you stick your arms and legs in stocks.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, he could have been killed. At least flogging would've been mild. And so, that's sort of the end of that scene. It shows tremendous bravery on the part of Robin. And one final beat to this story that's not in the movie, but is really cool. In real life, King Richard does indeed die at the siege of this castle in France. He gets shot with a crossbow and he lays dying. He wants to know which French soldier has killed him and turns out it's some French guy that I don't know, supposedly in some other battle, King Richard's killed his father, brothers, wars, this stuff happens. And King Richard says, "Well, I understand that. I forgive you. And you are to be free. In fact, I'll even give you some money."
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, who gives their person who kills them money? It makes no sense. So it's a great story, and it's totally true. Sadly, after King Richard dies, some other mercenary kills this young guy in pretty gruesome fashion. Sometimes, forgiveness is good, but when you die, it's not necessarily inherited by the next generation. King Richard is an interesting guy. A flawed hero, if you will. But as we'll see, coming up, the now King John, as flawed as Richard was, and he was deeply flawed, King John was a whole nother level of evil. He truly was evil without any redemptive qualities whatsoever.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And we will get to King John, who is King Richard's youngest brother, his only surviving brother. But something you said as you were telling that story, Warwick, really struck me. And it's the first time I thought about it this way, but you mention Robert Locksley, who is with King Richard when he's looking for an honest man among his forces. You mentioned that Sir Robert Locksley is the king's right hand man, but the king's right hand man is not the honest man that the king's searching for. I mean, the king doesn't know he asks someone, "Let's see if I could find an honest man." And his right hand man who he asks, is not an honest man because clearly, as you've explained, that massacre was something that a right hand man would know that was not the right thing to do.
Gary Schneeberger:
But again, he was perhaps more interested in holding onto power, holding onto authority, than he was in doing the right thing. And that's something that you've talked about in the book a lot. We talk about it on the show all the time, surround yourself, leaders, with people who will tell you what you need to hear, not only what you want to hear. And Richard had surrounded himself... Sir Robert Locksley was someone who told him what he wanted to hear and didn't tell him what he didn't want to hear.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's a fascinating point. I hadn't really thought about this, but I think another beat to the story of Sir Robert Locksley, I don't know that he was a bad person per se, but sometimes around this mythic hero, like a King Richard, and you put blinders on. You see the heroic figure, the one that the men cheer for, and you forget the bad stuff because you don't want to take your hero off the pedestal. So for those of us, it's good to have heroes, but look at them with sober eyes. Don't think our heroes have no flaws because every person does. So if you're a follower, if you're a Sir Robert Locksley, don't idealize a hero so much that you can't even see the bad or their deficiency. So, there's lessons for King Richard. There's also lessons for the Robert Locksley's of this world. Have a sober appraisal of your heroes because no hero in the world is perfect. Everybody has their flaws and Robert Locksley was not willing to see that. He just saw the mythic hero figure, not the deeply flawed king that Richard was.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And we find out more about Sir Robert Locksley, in fact, and in one of the next big scenes in the movie that has some import for Crucible Leadership. And that is, he is wounded in the battle that commences, that cost King Richard his life. He's wounded, as well. And as he's laying dying, Robin Longstride is walking through among the injured men and Locksley stops Robin and says to him, he asks him to return his sword. He hands him his sword and says, "Please return this to my father back in England." Again, speaking to perhaps the character of Robert Locksley having some holes in it. He had taken this sword from his father without letting his father know that. His father's also Sir... I forget his name. Sir... What's his name? Walter. Sir Walter Locksley. And he wants Longstride to bring the sword back to his father.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he begins the conversation, Locksley does, with Robin by saying, "Surely, you know what it's like to have a father who loves you." And he says, "No, I don't know what that's like." Robin says. From his point of view, he feels his father abandoned him at age six. But here's the interesting point, Robin agrees to bring that sword back to England and give it to Robert Locksley's dad. And I think the key Crucible Leadership truth there is, we say a lot of the time, you can't inherit a vision and that is entirely true. You cannot inherit a vision, but at the same time, you don't necessarily inherit the kind of nobility that leads to character rather than position. Robin Longstride, at that point in his life, had no really memorable father influence.
Gary Schneeberger:
There was no heritage there that he felt that he heard. And yet, he built his own character on his own doing his own thing by telling the king the truth in that time. And by this man, who's basically a stranger he's fighting alongside, who he knows is of high station, but he says, "Yeah, I'll go back to England and I'm going to bring this sword back to your father, because this is your dying wish." And Robin Longstride, as a man of honor, takes on that responsibility to execute that. And there's a lesson in that for us, as well, about the development of character. You can't inherit character from someone, but what Robin didn't inherit from his own father, in his own sort of upbringing, he certainly built on his own in taking on this responsibility for Robert Locksley.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's such a good point, Gary. Nobility of character and nobility of spirit, it's not something you inherit, it's sort of intrinsic to who you are, or it's something that you believe in, develop. So this was an incredible scene where, as you say, Robert Locksley lays dying, he's sort of murdered in an ambush. He's got a few moments to live and he basically begs Robin Longstride, "I didn't leave my father in a good position. I took his sword from him. I didn't ask. I want to be reconciled to my dad. What I did was wrong. I love my dad. He's a good man. Please give the sword back to him." And just begs him. And Robin Longstride says, "I will do that." As soon as he said that, Robert Locksley then dies. He's at peace now, knowing that there'll be...
Warwick Fairfax:
It was not just the sword will be given back to his father, but there's some sense of reconciliation. There's some sense of, "Forgive me, Father. What I did was wrong." And so, it's a great, not just returning the sword, but in a sense, giving some measure of healing and restoration to the relationship between father and son, even after the death of the son. So, it's an incredible thing that Robin Longstride does. And as you say, it shows his character, his nobility of spirit, which is something that is irrespective of your place in life and birth. We can all have that nobility of character and spirit that Robin Longstride has.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I mean, there are people in this movie who are called Sir, who have the title of Sir who don't deserve it, who don't have the character to match it. Gottfried being the great example. Is he English? Is he French? He's playing both sides against the middle. He's sort of the chief villain of the piece, but he's got nobility in some sense. King John has nobility in a regal sort of aristocratic sense, but he doesn't have any of that nobility of character that you talked about.
Warwick Fairfax:
No. I mean, just an interesting beat on that, since we're talking about sirs and knights. As listeners would know, there were actually three knights in my family in a row, and not inherited. You can't inherit a knighthood, at least in England, but typically not in Australia, where my father was Sir Warwick Fairfax. His father was Sir James Oswald Fairfax. And then before him, Sir James Redding Fairfax. And in theory, you're meant to be given a knighthood for service to the community for doing things that are meritorious for your country. That's the theory.
Warwick Fairfax:
In practice, obviously, certainly back then, it wasn't always that case. But I think I might have mentioned this occasionally, but my father was knighted while we were living in England when I was about six. And so, he actually got knighted in Buckingham Palace by Queen Elizabeth the Second. At age six, it seemed like some cavernous auditorium in the palace. I felt like I was in... I don't know, sort of the bleachers, upper bleachers somewhere. But you could see, just like in the movies, my father kneeled, and she got out the sword, and puts the sword on both his shoulders flat side. Obviously, you don't want to do the sharp side, otherwise knight's not going to be a knight too long. If anybody's knighting people, flat side first, just tips here.
Gary Schneeberger:
There's some leadership tips.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly. And then she says, "Arise." To Warwick, just like in the movies. It was pretty impressive. So yeah, I'd like to think my father was one of the the good nobles, one of the good knights, if you will. But yeah, they weren't always that way, unfortunately.
Gary Schneeberger:
Now that you've told that story, you have to tell the funny thing that you mentioned in the book that I've heard you tell a couple times. Not everybody... I mean, people who aren't from England or Australia don't necessarily understand sirs, and Knights, and lords, and all that stuff. And weren't there people sometimes that sort of misidentified your father by giving him a bit of a royalty promotion of some sorts? Explain that a little bit cause it's just funny.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Yeah. So after I graduated from high school in, I guess, '78, and then was going to Oxford later in fall of '79. We toured around the US for a couple months because I loved American history, and that was where I wanted to go. My dad said, "Well, you got in to Oxford. I'll take you anywhere you want to." And I wanted to go to the US, so we were traveling around and, as you say, people, certainly back then, didn't get all the differences, and they would call him Lord Fairfax. I mean, the word Lord Fairfax... Back in the day in Northern Virginia, There was a Lord Fairfax that helped George Washington get his start, which is another story. Well, a lord is a step up on being a knight, and there's probably 15 different levels of knighthood, believe it or not. Knight is George, and the garter, and goodness knows how many gradations there are, but yeah. When they called him Lord Fairfax, he didn't say, "And actually, no, I'm just Warwick." He just said nothing. "You want to give me a promotion?"
Gary Schneeberger:
I wouldn't have said anything either. In a passing thing going by, that's fine. If that's what you want to believe, that's perfectly okay with me. Back to the sirs though, that sword that Sir Robert Locksley gives Robin to bring back to his father, Sir Walter Locksley, Robin is messing with the grip on it. He unwinds the grip and he sees a slogan emblazoned in it. And it says this: "Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions." And it's pretty obvious when you hear that, but later in the film we learned that sort of just means never give up. And that's another key point in Crucible Leadership. We've done an entire podcast series on resilience about keeping bouncing back. It's never too late to allow the crucibles of our lives to season and motivate us to a life of significance. Resilience is critical to not only recovering from a crucible, but living a life of significance afterwards. And that's a lesson that Robin Longstride, as this movie plays out, certainly learns, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It really is. And we'll see, later on here in the movie, even the broader significance of that phrase, "Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions." Yes, absolutely. On one level it means perseverance and you never give up, but on another level, on an expanded level, the question is, never give up about what? And basically what Robin Longstride's father is saying, "Your life should be in service of others." It should be, as we say, in Crucible leadership, a life of significance. A life dedicated on purpose to serving others. When his dad is saying, "Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions." Until the common people have strength, have justice, will be another way of putting it. So never give up, but make sure your life's purpose, your life cause, is a life of significance, a life on purpose dedicated to serving others. That was Robin's legacy, as we'll see later, but there's a lot of just deep meaning behind the words on the hilt of that sword.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And just so you know, I also wore a t-shirt with a lion on it today because I knew that was coming.
Warwick Fairfax:
Awesome.
Gary Schneeberger:
I always dress for the part in costume. So that was a pretty significant, and not heavy beat, but that was a definite important point to let sit with listeners. And let's do that, and do what they do at movies sometimes, especially long epic movies. They take an intermission. And so, let's take an intermission in our discussion of Robin Hood and Robin Hoods, as they appear on film for our series here, Lights, Cameras, Crucibles. And let's talk about... You and I both have on the list of the 75 Robin Hood versions that are out there, you and I both have favorites or some that have more meaningful to us. For you, it's... Well, explain what it was for you. What's your kind of one that really tugs at your heart?
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, in the sixties and seventies growing up, there was this black and white English TV series called Robin Hood. I think it ran in the UK and in the US maybe like '55, '56, through '59. It wasn't really a campy version, but back in those years, it certainly wasn't gritty. And it starred Richard Green as Robin Hood, and every episode was him battling the Sheriff of Nottingham and Prince John, fighting for the oppressed. You had his love interest Maid Marian who back then, as in the traditional version, she was in the court of Prince John, Sheriff of Nottingham. And she would basically get the scuttlebutt, and pass it on to Robin Hood. "Hey, something's coming down, you better..." Like a spy in the court, so nobody kind of knew.
Warwick Fairfax:
And yeah, it's not really a gritty Robin Hood, but it's just this classic series. A little bit like the black and white version of Zorro in the sixties with Guy Williams, similar kind of TV series. It was somewhat serious, but it wasn't gritty. And it was the underdog, I mean, Zorro's somewhat similar in that sense. An aristocrat who's fighting for the oppressed. Somewhat similar beats, but yeah, it was just a fun series and I loved it. Had a...
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, I was going to say, and there's one of the reasons why you loved it, and fifties TV shows in particular were good at this, and that was the series theme song. I think of the Lone Ranger had a great theme song, and Zorro had a great theme song. And this particular Robin Hood series in the fifties had a great theme song, and we're going to let listeners hear it right now.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, does that bring back warm memories for you, Warwick, when you hear that theme song?
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, it does. I love that opening scene where you see Robin Hood pull back the bow and the swish of the arrow as it hits the tree. And then, the ending theme tune, which was over the credits. And just that line, I won't sing it. You just heard the music, but it says, "Robin Hood, Robin Hood riding through the glen. Robin Hood, Robin Hood with his band of men. Feared by the bad, loved by the good. Robin Hood, Robin Hood, Robin Hood." I mean, that's iconic, mythic stuff. It's no wonder that Robin Hood is this amazing figure, both in the silver screen, as well as in TV series. It's such a wonderful character.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, and my special Robin Hood story is a little bit different. It's the 1964 musical film, Robin and the Seven Hoods. Get it? Robin and the Seven Hoods. It's a play on words, but it stars Frank Sinatra, and Dean Martin, and Sammy Davis Jr. It's one of their rat pack films, and I love it. And I actually know a bit about it because I just wrote about it in my new book, Frank Sinatra on the Big Screen, the Singer as Actor and Filmmaker. The thing about that movie that was so great is, it was a great conceit that they set up. Frank Sinatra, who plays Robbo, and his merry men, who are all his kind of associated hoods, are good natured hoods in prohibition era Chicago. This whole idea of taking from the rich and giving to the poor turns into kind of this PR stunt that Robin does, where he raises money for a charity to help disadvantaged kids.
Gary Schneeberger:
And at first, it starts out as he just wants to do it as PR because, "Oh, look at Robbo!" Because he wants to get ahead of Guy Gisbourne, played by Peter Falk, who just steals the movie. He wants to make sure he can stay a step ahead of him in the battle for who's going to control the city's illegal liquor. Not often a phrase you hear with Robin Hood, by the way, illegal liquor, but that's true in Robin and the Seven Hoods. Even in that movie, which is a comedy, which is a musical, has some great moments in it. It's got Sinatra singing, which is everything. Bing Crosby plays Alan-a-Dale, one of Robin Hood's merry men. In this movie, he comes alongside as kind of the accountant to Robbo to keep track of all these donations that are coming in for the kids.
Gary Schneeberger:
But there's a great scene in that movie, that's musical, as well, that speaks to this idea of taking from those who have, and giving to those who don't, and about building character. Bing Crosby sings a song to these orphan children as they're going to bed. It's like a bedtime... Not a lullaby, but a bedtime kind of "Okay, quick, go to bed now." Song. And again, it speaks to this spirit of the character that we're talking about. And that song, we'll play a little bit for you right here. It's called, Don't Be a Do Badder.
Gary Schneeberger:
Now all day, I am going to be in my head singing, "Don't be a do badder, a do badder." Cause that's one of the only songs I've ever heard that has a rhyme for step ladder in it, but there it is. So, there's our intermission. Intermission is over. I just thought we'd do that to kind of give you a feel for one of the things we want this series to be, is informational and inspirational, but also fun. And hopefully, Warwick, kind of recalling his days of watching Robin Hood on TV, and me snapping my fingers to Don't Be a Do Badder makes you smile. Going back to Robin Hood 2010 with Russell Crowe, he returns to England. He's got the sword. He's going to return it to Sir Walter Locksley. And when he gets there, he meets Sir Walter and Sir Walter's daughter-in-law, Lady Marian.
Gary Schneeberger:
So this is Robert's wife, now widow, though she doesn't know it quite yet. And he ultimately pretends to be Sir Robert, at the urging of Sir Walter. So Sir Walter says, "Okay, things are kind of unstable here. We need some stability. We need to have the people who are trying to oppress us to believe that my son has come home." So Robin Longstride impersonates Robert Locksley when he is back in England because they need a man of grit and strength to help them survive kind of what's happening back home in England. As that beat plays out, how does that feel for you as Robin begins to step into a different identity than he's known? And I think that's a nice bridge to what ends up being his life of significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
We have opportunities in life, in which you make a choice just to follow our own path and the sense of do what we want to do, but not in a good sense, just, "Hey, I want to do it because it's just about me. I don't care about anybody else." But we have opportunities in which we can decide, "Okay, is life more than me? Maybe I need to serve my fellow man, my fellow men and women." And in this case, Sir Walter Locksley, who's I think in his eighties at the time, he's pretty much blind. He knows that without an heir, that everything will be taken away by King John and the Sheriff of Nottingham.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so he says, "Look, for the moment... My son is dead. I want you..." It's 10 years later in the crusades, 10 years is a long time. He was young when he left. "I want you to play my son." And Robin does that, not for his own glory. It's like, "This old man needs me. He's going to tell me more about my father and about the sword." He doesn't get the full story yet. "And if I can help Sir Walter Locksley and Marian, and the people in the village around Nottingham, then I will."
Warwick Fairfax:
So it wasn't about glory, it was about serving other people and helping to fight oppression. Cause if he doesn't take that up, it's going to mean all those people that live in that village are going to be ripe for oppression and persecution by King John and his henchmen. So this is what Robin's thinking, "Okay. If I don't do this, bad things will happen to regular folks. So, what am I going to do?" He says, "Well, if I need to play this guy for the sake of protecting people, then I will." It is a noble decision, in the best sense of that word.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I love this discussion because we've used the word noble in different contexts several times. And it truly is. There's the nobility of position, which is not what Robin's after. There's the nobility of character that he exhibits over and over and over again. The next big scene you heard, listener, we played it at the outset of the show, is when Robin does learn the truth about his own father. It's told to him by Sir Walter, and it's a moment, and I'll let Warwick give the details of it because he understands this stuff a little better than I do. But in that moment, Robin receives something we talk about often at Crucible Leadership, and that is a legacy. He learns some things that his father left behind, ideas and actions that inspired citizens when his father was alive, and can inspire them again. And so Warwick, what is it? Unpack that clip that we played at the outset of what Sir Walter tells Robin and what he learns about his dad and why that's so meaningful.
Warwick Fairfax:
So in the clip, we see Robin with his father around the stone monument in the center of a town. And what he learns from Sir Walter Locksley, is that Robin's father, he was a stone mason, which is a noble profession. You got to be very skilled, but as noble as that profession is, he was more than a stone mason. He's told that his father was a visionary, a philosopher. In one sense, although they don't use that word, he was really revolutionary, in the best sense of that word. When he wrote those words, "Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions." On that stone, he was really talking about the concept of freedom, of liberty, is what he was really talking about.
Warwick Fairfax:
Sir Walter Locksley says, "We took up his call for the rights from baron to serf." In other words, from noble, to just the regular person, to anybody. One of the things that Robin's father was doing, was organizing a charter. And there were names on that charter with people who really wanted to fight that everybody would have rights, would have liberty. And he was executed because Robin's father would not give up the names on that charter. One of them was, indeed, Sir Walter Locksley, and some other characters that we see.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's important to say, because we said earlier, Robin believed, for his whole adult life, and his youthful life after age six, he believed his father abandoned him. And one of the things that's going on in this scene, is he realizes, not only did his father not abandon him, but his father lived a noble life in the sense of noble character.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. And we always talk about, you can't inherit a legacy. This is one exception in which Robin, in a sense, did. We would see that this legacy of fighting for the oppressed, of fighting for liberty, even before Robin knew his father's full legacy, that's who he was. In some sense, I don't know if it was inherited or it was just innate, or learnt, but in this sense, it's one thing inheriting some family business legacy, but a legacy in terms of standing up for the oppressed and for freedom and liberty, that's a powerful legacy. That'll be a harder thing to say, "Well, okay, Dad, Mom, I know you were for liberty, and freedom, but ah, I'm not really into that." It really, in a sense, his father's legacy, was a legacy of significance, of living a life on purpose helping others. All of us, if we are so blessed to have that legacy from our parents, that's a legacy.
Warwick Fairfax:
And that may mean different things for us, but that legacy of serving others, a life of significance, and that was the legacy he inherited, which I'm sure as he fully understood it, I'm sure it meant the world to Robin. My dad was a great man. He died to keep the names of those who wanted to fight for freedom and for rights out of the hands of the wicked rulers at the time. So that's just so powerful, that legacy that Robin realized, "My dad was a revolutionary, a philosopher, a visionary, a champion of the oppressed. That's my dad?" He'd had no clue before. I mean, that is just an incredible scene.
Gary Schneeberger:
To the point of whether he inherited the legacy, you can't inherit a vision, you can't inherit a legacy. I don't know that he inherited as much as he continued it, meaning he'd already, as you just indicated, and we've been talking about, Robin had already been living a life of significance. His arrow, no pun intended, was pointed toward a life of significance. So when he learns this, that gives him a chance to adopt that thing that his father was doing and add that to his quiver. Again, I keep making puns about arrows, but he gets to add that aspect of what his father was doing to the quiver that he has of his life of significance of helping people. As he picked up that mantle that his father had established and that was interrupted by his being murdered, as he picks up that mantle, Warwick, there's something pretty significant that happens in the movie, and then just kind of in the arc of history. Unpack that a little bit for listeners.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, there's a great scene where sort of the origin of the Magna Carta happens, which has been an inspiration for Britain and indeed the United States, this concept of liberty that happened in the Magna Carta, which we see a bit in this movie. And so, what happens after Robin hears about his heritage, at some point after that from Sir Walter Locksley, basically Sir Walter Locksley has been sent a message that Northern barons are gathering. Gottfried, we see in the movie, is plotting to create a civil war so that the Northern barons will attack King John. And while they're at each other's throats in some massive civil war, along will come, I believe it's King Philip of France, and invade England and take it over. So, this is all part of a plot deliberately.
Warwick Fairfax:
So basically, Walter is too old, and so he sends Robin in his place to represent him. In fact, he says to Robin, "Come at the hour, come at the man." Which I'm sure we've all heard before, a great phrase. So here he goes to, in the movie, Barnsdale. He passes that very monument that we saw in that clip, it's actually in the town, where they're going to have this discussion about the Magna Carta and the Charter, at least in the movie anyway. So he sees that, and it's, again, he's sort of hit between the eyes, thunder struck, if you will, and is like, "Wow, I'm going to this big meeting. And those words are ringing in my ears. Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions." Then Robin gives this unbelievable speech in which he says, in front of King John and the other nobles, "Can I say something?" Well, they think of him as Sir Robert of Locksley. They don't really know who he is.
Warwick Fairfax:
So he is a noble, every noble has the right to speak in this meeting. And so he says to the people and the king, the following. He says, "If you are trying to build for the future, you must set your foundation strong. The laws of this land enslave people to its king. A king who demands loyalty, but offers nothing in return. I have marched to Palestine and back, and I know in tyranny lies only failure. You build a country like you build a cathedral, from the ground up. Empower every man and you, the king, will gain strength. If your majesty were to offer justice in the form of a charter of liberties, allow every man to forage for his half, to be safe from conviction without cause, or prison without charge, to work, eat, work at the sweat of your brow, to be as merry as you can, the king will be great. Not only will he receive the loyalty of his people, but their love, as well."
Warwick Fairfax:
And King John kind of scarfs at this a bit. Eventually Robin says, "What would have your majesty as liberty, liberty by law?" Well, at that point, King John is between a rock and a hard place. He knows the French are about to attack. He knows if the nobles are divided, he'll lose. So in the movie, he grudgingly says, "Sure, I'll sign this charter." Or "I'll sign the charter once we win." Later in the movie, we find he rips it up. In real life, it is true that the Magna Carta, which was in Runnymede, south of England, near Windsor, was something that was drawn up that really did reclaim rights. It's grown to mythic proportions.
Warwick Fairfax:
Later on, and certainly in the eyes of the founders of the United States, one of their inspirations was the Magna Carta. And as they saw it, which is a little bit mythic about Robin Hood, they saw the Magna Carta as guaranteeing the rights to every person to trial by jury. So a little bit expanded perhaps, originally it was more about the rights of nobles, but it took on mythic proportions. So in the sense, back to Robin Longstride, here he gives this speech, and really, he's inheriting his father's mantel about the charter, and now the Magna Carta. It's almost the same legacy, in a sense. And here he is, at least in this mythic portrayal, he's in this key moment where the Magna Carta is drawn up, that will influence democracies around the world for centuries, including influencing the very forming of the United States.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, talk about a legacy of significance. You are at a place where you are advocating for liberty and freedom against tyranny that will affect countries all over the world for hundreds of years and for generations. I mean, not many of us will have that kind of life of significance. But Robin wasn't thinking that, he's thinking, "Look, if we don't do something, France is going to conquer this country. We've got to unite people. And I want to fight for freedom and liberty." So he's not thinking about the big legacy picture, he's just thinking, "Look, something needs to be done here. We need to be united and we need to use this opportunity to fight for freedom and liberty." It's an incredible scene.
Gary Schneeberger:
We talk a lot at Beyond the Crucible and Crucible Leadership about the power of just taking one small step toward your goal. And as I think back over what we've just talked about for the last hour or so, Robin Longstride's life, that we've just unpacked, is a series of one small steps. Step one, he tells King Richard the truth about what he feels about the Crusades. He has the courage to do that, where no one else does. Step two, he agrees, even though he doesn't really know Robert Locksley, to take the sword that Robert Locksley had taken from his father and caused some estrangement there, he agrees to take that back to England and give it to his father. He steps into the role of Robert Locksley when Robert Locksley's father asks him to do so, to help bring some stability and some strength to what is turning into a very bad situation for the people of England when he gets back there.
Gary Schneeberger:
He takes this small step of speaking in the meeting where they're talking about this charter. And then, he takes, for him, was probably a small step, but not a small step in the movie, in that he takes a leading role. The next step he takes toward his life of significance is a leading role in the turning away of the French forces when they try to lay siege to England. And ultimately, preserving the freedom of England, not to be under France's rule. That's, again, another step he took to do that by fighting on the front lines to get that accomplished. Fascinating, isn't it? How his life is a series... What we just talked about, is a series of small steps that lead to a life of significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
It really is. I mean, that's one of the last scenes of the movie, the battle scenes. It's sort of epic when all the forces in England unite. The nobles may not like King John, but they don't want to be overtaken by France. So, the greater enemy is the important one. And they're probably skeptical that John will live up to the charter, but one lives in hope. But meanwhile, the greater enemy is France. So here they are, they come to this cliff, and there's this great scene where one of the key honorable figures in English nobility, man that by the name of Marshall, who's fighting for justice. He leads the cavalry on the beach and Robin leads the archers on the cliff, and the archers rain down all of these arrows on the French forces.
Warwick Fairfax:
And as the French king is in his ship about to send his forces in, he says, "Well, this doesn't look like a country at war with itself. This looks like you're united."I mean, as French would say, "Mon Dieu." Which is, "My God." I don't know if he says that in the movie, but it's the kind of thing a Frenchman would say at that point. It's like, "Uh-oh." Would be the rough English translation, "I'm in trouble."
Warwick Fairfax:
Obviously, as you see the movie, the English forces win, they turn back the French. The evil English slash Frenchman henchman Gottfried gets killed by an arrow in an incredible shot by Robin. But one of the sad things, as we sort of wind up the movie, I think King John maybe asked Marshall, this good noble, "Who are they cheering for?" And it's like, "They're cheering for Robin." I don't know if everybody realized, he's just a regular guy. He's a regular guy that helps have a massive role in saving England from the French. Well, as we'll see, King John is not a noble of character and he doesn't like it when a person he discovers to be this regular guy is cheered for. So yes, the adulation that the troops give Robin, as we'll see, prove to be his undoing. No fault of Robin's, but King John is not one to play second fiddle, unfortunately.
Gary Schneeberger:
No. And as you have indicated, he tears up the charter and he declares Robin an outlaw. And what's beautiful about that, from the perspective of what we've been talking about in terms of the Robin Hood legend, is this truly has been an origin story. You realize at that moment, when the Sheriff of Nottingham is going to hang a sign saying that Robin's an outlaw. And he asks, "I need a nail." Next thing that happens, an arrow splits his fingers, doesn't go through his fingers, but it goes in between his fingers, and nails it to the tree. And that is the launching of Robin Hood as this figure who will take from the comfortable and the oppressors and give to the oppressed. And that's when you kind of realize as a movie goer, was kind of a fun scene. It's like, "Oh, what I've been watching was a complete origin story." Just like how Spider-Man becomes Spider-Man, or Batman becomes Batman.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's a film, it's a movie length origin story, backstory that tells how Robin Hood becomes Robin Hood. And there's lots of lessons to learn along the way that we can kind of put in our pockets as we begin to move out from our origin story and to pursue our life of significance, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. What's fascinating about this ending of the Robin Hood movie with Russell Crowe, is it's not really a happy ending. He helps to create what would become the Magna Carta. It was ripped up at the moment, but it did come to live on in English history and world history. He becomes an outlaw. Why? Well, because he helps save his country and King John didn't like the adulation. He was jealous. And so, because of all the good he did, the good he did proved his undoing. So one of the lessons in life, is sometimes when you do good, other people get jealous and they don't like it. So just because you live a life of significance and want to defend the oppressed and fight for liberty, it doesn't always work out well. There's not always a happy ending.
Warwick Fairfax:
In this sense, it's not a happy ending. But my sense, as we see the closing scenes of the movie, where Robin is in, what one would assume, is Sherwood Forest, with Marian. They're happy with the outlaws and protecting the oppressed. I doubt that they bear a grudge, but it's sort of a sad ending between the traditional one, like a 1938 version of Robin Hood with Errol Flynn. King Richard comes back from the Crusades, and all is well. He gets the girl, Marian, he gets his titles back and all is good.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, life isn't always like a fairytale. And in some sense, is this more realistic? Maybe. But he lives his life of significance. He lives his convictions, whether or not fame or fortune comes to him. And in the end, fame and fortune do not come to him. He is on the run from the evil King John, but yet I'm sure if you asked him, "Do you regret what you did? Do you regret saving England from the French? Do you regret upholding your father's charter? Do you regret fighting for liberty and freedom?" He'd say, "No. I may die, but I will have lived a life that I feel like I, and those who know me, can be proud of." So, it's a great story.
Gary Schneeberger:
And in the context of this series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, where we're talking about movie heroes, it's not an uncommon ending to a story. Think of Spider-Man, who we're going to talk about next week. Spider-Man is a character who a lot of people think, especially the publisher of the Daily Bugle, J. Jonah Jameson, thinks he's a villain, doesn't think he's a good guy. The Hulk isn't thought of as a hero. A lot of the heroes that we have talked about, and will talk about, Batman, he's a vigilante. He's a bad guy. There is a little bit of that. And I think from the perspective of Robin Hood, or some of these other heroes that I've just talked about, that idea of being not a happy ending, not being able to rest, I think that fuels them to continue their life of significance in some way.
Gary Schneeberger:
And they probably look at that as... I mean, Robin Hood's life of significance is to defend the oppressed. And when you defend the oppressed, those doing the oppressing are going to be after you. So I think, he probably welcomes that in some way. That allows him to keep on keeping on in his life of significance. So as we wrap up here, Warwick, what's the last, of all the things that we've talked about, pull the balloon strings together, and let listeners know what's the chief learning, maybe, from Robin Hood.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, there's probably a couple, but I love the fact that Robin is living his father's legacy, but yet it's his own legacy of fighting for the oppressed, fighting for the rights of men and women for liberty, equality. Giving people, whether they be noble or serf, as his father puts it, equal rights. When you live your whole life, and that's your life of significance, in a sense, it doesn't get any better than that. That's a wonderful legacy to be living. But realize, as you live your life as significance, sometimes things will go well for you, but sometimes, it won't lead to fame and fortune, nor will you always be seen as the hero. Sometimes you'll be vilified. Certainly the oppressed like Robin Hood, but the nobility who he was upsetting the apple cart, not so much.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so, you've got to live your life of significance, not so much because of what other people think, but what you think in your inner core, what lines up with your own spirituality and faith and values. So a life of significance, it's not a popularity contest. It's meant to be something that's rooted in your inner values, be it fame, fortune, be it approval, or condemnation, it's living what you believe in the service of a greater cause and service of others. That's what a life of significance should be, and really, Robin Hood models that so well.
Gary Schneeberger:
I'd say that the plane has landed, but we've been talking about arrows, so the arrow has found its mark, Warwick. We have wrapped another episode of Beyond the Crucible's special summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles. And next week, I've said it a couple times already, but next week, if you want to do a little homework, not homework, a little bit of fun, watch a movie with your family, enjoy it. We're going to be talking about Spider-man next week. And the movie that we're going to drill in on most is the first one with Tobey Maguire. It was just called Spider-man. So that's the one that we're going to drill in, but there's a lot of iterations to talk about. So really, any Spider-Man movie you want to pop in, we're probably going to be able to touch on that when we have our conversation.
Gary Schneeberger:
So until that time happens next week, listener, thank you for spending time with us on this episode. And please remember that we do understand how painful crucible experiences are. We know it's difficult, we know it can knock the wind out of your sails, and it can change the trajectory of your life, but we also know that crucibles aren't the end of your story. When you learn the lessons of them, when you apply those lessons, as you move forward to a life of significance, that journey can take you to the greatest chapter of the greatest story of your life. Why? Because where it leads you to is a life of significance.
The life we learn with … and the life we live with after that. Those words come from THE NATURAL, the film we discuss on this week’s episode of our summer series LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure. It’s hard to think of a better way to express the truths we try to share each week on this show: offering hope and practical action steps to learn the lessons of your crucibles in order to chart a course to a life of significance.
Highlights
The roots of Warwick’s love of THE NATURAL (3:18)
Why Roy Hobbs qualifies as a hero (4:39)
Thinking back to better times (7:13)
The dangers of relying on natural talent (10:15)
Making Wonderboy (13:06)
Roy’s teenage moment in the sun … and the crucible that follows (16:13)
The signs he missed about Harriet Byrd (20:39)
Sixteen years later, Roy finally gets his shot (25:59)
Setting the league on fire (28:24)
Roy’s romantic distraction, and the crucibles it causes (33:48)
Learning the lesson of our crucibles is not a one-and-done proposition (35:10)
Roy’s “white angel” who gets him back on track (41:21)
The final crucibles, and how Iris helps him overcome them (46:56)
Roy’s triumphant moment (54:46)
Roy Hobbs’ ultimate life of significance (1:03:09)
Reflecting on the episode (1:08:42)
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Iris Gaines:
You're so good now.
Roy Hobbs:
I could have been better. I could have broke every record in the book.
Iris Gaines:
And then?
Roy Hobbs:
And then, when I walked down the street, people would've looked and they would've said, "There goes Roy Hobbs, the best there ever was in this game."
Iris Gaines:
Now I believe we have two lives.
Roy Hobbs:
What do you mean?
Iris Gaines:
Life we learn with and the life we live with after that.
Gary Schneeberger:
The life we learn with and the life we live with after that. It's hard to think of a better way to express the truths we try to share each week on this show, offering hope and practical action steps to learn the lessons of your crucibles in order to chart a course to a life of significance.
Gary Schneeberger:
Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. That clip you just heard is from The Natural, the 1984 movie that Warwick and I discuss this week on episode three of our special summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, what our favorite movie heroes can teach us about overcoming setbacks and failure.
Gary Schneeberger:
It's one of the best baseball movies ever made, but that's just one reason we're dropping this episode on the day of the Major League Baseball All-Star Game. We're covering it in this series because it's a rousing story of the redemption of its hero, the other worldly, talented ballplayer, Roy Hobbs, and how he learns that talent alone is insufficient if we want to live lives on purpose dedicated to serving others.
Gary Schneeberger:
For that, we need to sharpen our character, as well as our skills, and surround ourselves with those who believe in us and challenge us on our journey to making our vision a reality no matter how long it might take.
Gary Schneeberger:
We are in the midst of a summer series that we're doing called, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, what your favorite movie heroes can teach you about overcoming setback and failure. And this week after the first two weeks, we talked about Captain America, week one. We talked about Batman, week two, from Marvel to DC. Now we're moving out of superheroes all together.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, no, at least costume superheroes. Perhaps, uniformed superheroes this time. We're going to talk about the 1984 film, The Natural, starring Robert Redford as the quintessential unbelievable baseball player who is Roy Hobbs.
Gary Schneeberger:
We've already talked a little bit, Warwick, before we hit record here about some of the things that we want to talk about. I mean, this is a movie we both love a lot. You've loved this movie for quite a bit of time I believe, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's funny as you say, this came out in 1984. I was living in New York City at the time. It's in my Chase Man Bank days before I went to Harvard Business School three years before I did my own takeover, if you will, $2B plus of Fairfax Media.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, I've always loved stories and movies about redemption. And this is a movie all about redemption. So, little did I know how much need I'd have of redemption in 1984. We'll talk about foreshadowing. This foreshadowed some redemption I would dearly need after my failed take over. But this was three years before it happened.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, I loved the movie when I saw it in New York City. And it's been one of my all-time favorite movies ever since, because of just this sense of redemption that Roy Hobbs goes through.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I am indeed wearing Roy Hobbs's jersey. And while I'm righthanded, not lefthanded, I did indeed bring a baseball and a glove to our recording because of course you do. I have a New York Knights hat and a New York Knights jersey. There, so as you can see is the lightning bolt, which we'll talk more about. We'll talk more about all of this, listener. Just in case anybody wants to play catch while we're doing this show, I've got a glove right here where we can do that.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, talking about The Natural, let's level set this for listeners, Warwick. It's the story I said earlier of the man who wore this jersey, number nine on the back, Roy Hobbs. And Roy Hobbs is a lot of things.
Gary Schneeberger:
But for the purposes of starting our discussion, we'll say that Roy Hobbs is a man who makes some poor choices sometimes, has some really difficult, challenging, almost certainly life-threatening things happened to him. He struggles as a young man with confidence and maybe some holes in his character.
Gary Schneeberger:
But the overarching theme why we're talking about Roy Hobbs on this series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, about how you can learn lessons from movie heroes to overcome your own crucibles is because Roy Hobbs is someone who becomes a hero, who gets included in this summer series because he learns the lessons of his setbacks and his failures, and even those stumbles and missteps that he took. That's a pretty fair, big picture assessment of who we're talking about today, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, Roy Hobbs, as many of us do as a teenager, makes some poor choices that have as we'll see life-altering consequences. And he does learn the lessons. One of the hardest things as we'll see that he has to overcome is he is unsparing of himself. He just crucifies himself for the mistakes he made.
Warwick Fairfax:
And there are many of us out there, myself included with my own crucible in which I was as hard on myself in the mistakes I made as anybody. And so, for many of us, the mistake is one thing, owning up to it is one thing, but forgiving yourself and moving beyond your mistakes, it's for many of us just forgiving yourself at just mind numbing what we believe is horrendously stupid, poor decisions, it's tough.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's almost one of the toughest frontiers for many of us is even if others will forgive us, and not everybody will, forgiving ourselves, my gosh, that's so hard. And if you don't do that, you don't move on, the life significance won't happen. So, that's one of the key beats of the story of Roy Hobbs as we'll see.
Gary Schneeberger:
When you watch the movie, The Natural, that's the first picture we get of Roy Hobbs, right? We first see him and he is at a train station and he's got a thousand-yard stare in his eyes. He's very quiet of both body and face. He looks weary by life. It's clear that this is a man who knows his way around crucibles. This is a man who's not had an easy life.
Gary Schneeberger:
We don't know what those crucibles were. We don't know what caused them, but we know that he's a man who's heavy-laden. That look, that sense that Roy Hobbs has lived a difficult existence up until the point we meet him as viewers continues when he's on the train. We don't know where he is going, but we know he's going there with a heavy heart in many ways.
Gary Schneeberger:
But he does what a lot of us do. And this is our first inkling into who Roy Hobbs really is is he does what a lot of us do when we're feeling a little weary, when we're feeling heavy-hearted, when we're feeling lost or depressed, or looking for direction.
Gary Schneeberger:
Roy Hobbs on that train begins to dream of the things that he loves. And what he loves, where his mind takes him back to, is his love of baseball. And the first time we see Roy as a young boy that he thinks back on, he's playing baseball with his dad on the family farm. Not only is he having a good time doing it, but based on what we see, Roy's a pretty good baseball player.
Gary Schneeberger:
Roy's someone who... the name of the film is The Natural because Roy appears to have some pretty great natural talent. And he exhibits that while his dad paints a strike zone on the fence of the family farm and Roy pitches it and he blows a hole in the fence. That's a kid who's got a pretty good fastball, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. There are some young people that, whether it's baseball, football, whatever the sport is, tennis, they could almost play anything they want to and they're fantastic. I remember Bo Jackson as some will remember was a standout baseball player.
Warwick Fairfax:
Many top athletes, they go play golf and they're a two or three handicap max. And golf's not their main sport, but they're just so gifted. Roy Hobbs was one of those people, one of those kids that had, you would almost say, this God-given talent. It was off the charts.
Gary Schneeberger:
And what's interesting about that, and it's a great segue into one of the first crucible leadership moments that comes out of this movie, that a spotlight is really shown on a lot of key principles of crucible leadership in the movie, The Natural. But the first one comes right after Roy breaks that fence with his fastball.
Gary Schneeberger:
His dad who is playing with him and also coaching him says to him, "You've got a gift, Roy, but it's not enough. You've got to develop it. You rely too much on your own gift and you'll fail." And the truth of that, right, is something that we talk about on Crucible Leadership all the time and Beyond the Crucible all the time.
Gary Schneeberger:
Our roads back from crucibles and our roads to lives of significance require our gifts and talents for sure, but they also require lifelong learning in the areas where we want to have that impact and in our own character and authenticity. That's what Roy Hobbs's dad is trying to tell him, "You can't just rely on your natural gifts. You have to develop them." And as we say in Beyond the Crucible, you have to learn from the experiences that life hands you. Fair?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I'm reminded. It just came to mind. There's this saying in Greek mythology, there's Greek Gods, Zeus, Athena, all those. They would say something like, "Who the gods would bring down, they would first favor."
Warwick Fairfax:
Basically, the notion is it's really hard when you're incredibly gifted. And life is easy at least in the sense for Roy. He's so good at baseball. It's like how can he miss? Everybody talks about the sure thing, right? He's got this.
Warwick Fairfax:
But very often you'll see in sports, people that are so talented as teenagers, they never really make it later on in whatever the sport is because they don't have the grit, the resilience, the determination because it's all so easy. And there are other athletes who don't have as much raw talent, but they have the determination, the grit, the staying power.
Warwick Fairfax:
Sometimes great gifts can be a curse at such a young age. It feels like you don't have to work for it. Hitting a homerun, that's easy. Hitting a fastball or throwing a fastball for a strike that nobody can hit, that's not a tough thing. So, sometimes having great gifts can be a crucible because you take it for granted and you don't do what Roy's dad says. You don't develop it.
Warwick Fairfax:
The sad thing is sometimes it takes some hard knocks to fully understand I guess how profound that comment that Roy's dad said. I don't think Roy understood what his dad was saying. Sadly, he would understand it in the years to come.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he understands it a little bit a lot in the next scene in the film. After playing catch with his boy, Mr. Hobbs has a heart attack on the family farm and dies, as Roy watches him die. Roy has actually very sweet scene. Roy is laying on his dad's chest while his dad passes away. And that's his first real crucible that we see.
Gary Schneeberger:
Here's this kid who has all the talent in the world it looks like, who is probably dreaming, as young boys do if they're good at sports, of a career doing that. And then, the one person who could make sure he followed that advice to not rest on his laurels, to not just camp on his talent, but to develop that talent, is gone. Roy loses his rudder in that moment. And it doesn't take long for him to veer off course we learn pretty quickly after that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Interesting scene happens before we get to see Roy struggling in the early days of his young life when he's a teenager in early twenties, lightning. There's a storm the night his dad dies. And lightning strikes this big tree on the family farm. Roy's looking at his window. He watches the tree go down when the lightning hits it.
Gary Schneeberger:
He salvages some wood from that tree and he makes a baseball bat from it. He burns with one of those wood burners. He burns the word Wonderboy on it. We wonder, is that a nickname that he's gotten from being such a good baseball player because he's growing up as a young boy? But Roy burns Wonderboy on that bat. And he puts a lightning bolt in it.
Gary Schneeberger:
There's another crucible leadership I think, Warwick, in that is that when something is destroyed like the family tree was, something beautiful and special and helpful to our journey forward can be built from it if we put in the work. I don't think young Roy Hobbs, 10-year-old, 12-year-old Roy Hobbs understands that when he is doing it, but I think he comes to understand that as time goes on.
Gary Schneeberger:
He takes that tree that is knocked down. That was devastating because the tree probably meant something to him the way that he reacts when it goes down. He takes what was broken and he makes something of it that's not only beautiful that he comes to treasure, but ends up helping him on his journey to a life of significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, Gary. I mean, this is really another example of some foreshadowing of Roy is going to go through some really tough trials, I don't want to say worse, but in some sense, even almost worse than losing his dad. But out of just some of the devastation and the pain, something beautiful can happen in a sense if we allow.
Warwick Fairfax:
You're very smart to bring that up just the way his whole bat, Wonderboy, is created. Out of pain can come purpose, can come redemption, and that was to happen in Roy Hobbs's life. So, it's really an early foreshadowing of using pain for a purpose that would come about.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And we'll talk more about it. One of the things I loved about this movie, even before we decided today or in 2022 that we're going to do a podcast series on it, I've loved it since it first came out because there's a lot of really great moving foreshadowing. And that's exactly one of those moments that you talk about.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, the movie then flashes forward a few years and a teenage Roy. And you have to suspend disbelief a little bit sometimes in hero movies because Robert Redford was in his forties and he's playing a teenager. So, they shoot him through a lot of fuzzy lenses, right? But you have to believe that's the case that 40 something year old Robert Redford's a teenager in these scenes, 18, 19, something like that.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he's kept playing baseball through the years because he's about to go to Chicago for a tryout with of course the greatest team in the history of baseball, the Chicago Cubs. As a family of Chicago Cubs, there's my Cubs wristwatch right there.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, he's got to be good if a pro team wants to take a look at him. And he meets before he heads off on the train that night with the girl next door. She's the proverbial girl next door in movies like this. And he tells her, "I've got to reach for the best that is in me." That's what he says to Iris, this girl next door whom he loves.
Gary Schneeberger:
He's trying to live up to dad's exhortation, right? "I've got to reach for the best that's in me as I head off on this journey." He and Iris then share... they sleep together. She's his girl and he's going off. And what we come to learn pretty quickly, he's going off with perhaps a little naivety, certainly with not a lot of experience. And some things happen to him on that train trip that will forever alter his life, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. You've got this young Roy Hobbs, 18, 19. He's could be one of the greatest pitchers in baseball. And it's ironic that he meets... I think you mentioned The Whammer, this Babe Ruth figure who started off as a pitcher and became a hitter. Another bit of foreshadowing of Roy Hobbs. But it seems like he's got the world before him. And what could go wrong? It's an eerie time as he's heading on that train to Chicago.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. As you said, I hadn't mentioned it yet, but you've introduced The Whammer. The Whammer is Babe Ruth, right? They can't use Babe Ruth's name in the movie I guess, so they call him The Whammer. And he is the Major League Baseball's homerun king. And he's obviously modeled after Babe Ruth. This scene right now takes place in the early 1920s. And Babe Ruth was already by that time known as The Sultan of Swat in Major League Baseball.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, Roy's got an agent, this kindly old man who's accompanying him on the train. And they meet up not only with The Whammer, but also with a sports writer named Max Mercy, deliciously, devilishly played by Robert Duvall who's one of my favorite actors.
Gary Schneeberger:
There's some jawwing going back and forth between Max Mercy and Roy's agent. And basically, his agent who doesn't really have a lot of money bets Max Mercy 10 bucks that Roy Hobbs, this kid on the train, can strike out The Whammer on just three pitches. Well, that seems like an easy bet for someone like Max Mercy when you're talking about a guy who's Babe Ruth, right? That superhuman feats in the sport of baseball.
Gary Schneeberger:
Just three pitches. If one of them goes outside the strike zone, bets off, you lose, agent. If The Whammer fouls one off on the third pitch that's over to anything that's not a strike ends the bet. Three pitched balls. So, they gather to do this. The train has a water stop. They gather. They're there.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's a wonderful scene, which Roy is pitching to The Whammer. And it shows, on those three pitches, the first one gets Max Mercy to back up. He's the umpire. He's like, "Whoa, okay, this kid could be wild." He's like, "Can't believe how fast he throws."
Gary Schneeberger:
The Whammer swings and misses at the second pitch after the first one is really fast and surprises everybody. And then, the third pitch comes and The Whammer swings and misses that. Roy Hobbs strikes out the greatest player in baseball.
Gary Schneeberger:
And something interesting happens at that moment speaking about foreshadowing. There's a woman on the train. Her name's Harriet Bird. We don't know really anything about her, except she's pretty in a big city way. Roy's a boy from the farms of Iowa.
Gary Schneeberger:
The Whammer is trying to impress her with his rings and all his talent. And so, she's walking around with him. And we don't really know why, except she's attracted to the power and the prestige that's in him is what we think. But when that pitch...
Gary Schneeberger:
Two things happen when that third strike comes. The director, Barry Levinson, does a great job of filming Robert Redford as Roy Hobbs throwing the pitch in slow motion. And behind him, the sun is setting, right? I don't think that's an accident. I think that's the director's way of saying, "Even at this moment where it should be the start of this ascension into baseball stardom, the sun's setting on Roy Hobbs in some way."
Gary Schneeberger:
And the next thing that we see too is Harriet Bird, this beautiful somewhat mysterious woman, she's watching The Whammer. She's been all impressed with The Whammer. All of a sudden, Roy strikes the Whammer out and we watched her gaze go from hitter to pitcher. Her eyes are on Roy.
Gary Schneeberger:
And speaking of foreshadowing, what ends up happening to Roy? He meets with her in the dining car even though he has a girl back home. He's young. He's intrigued by this sophisticated woman. He meets her in her hotel room. Something happens to him when he's there that changes his life forever.
Gary Schneeberger:
He walks up into the room and she says to him, "Roy, who has said all along, 'I'm going to be the...'" Even at 18, 19 years old believes he's going to be the best whoever played the game. People will look at him and say, "There goes Roy Hobbs, the best who ever played this game. He's got that talent."
Gary Schneeberger:
And she asks him, wearing a veil, strange as she's outside her room, "Are you going to be the best who ever played the game, Roy?" And he says, "Yes." And then, she pulls out a gun, or she has a gun. She pulls up the gun, fires and shoots him in the stomach area.
Gary Schneeberger:
And then, later after that, they cut to the window of her floor in the hotel room. And the wind's blowing in, clearly indicating that she jumped out of the window. That's a shocking scene to see, but there was some foreshadowing on the train that indicates what Harriet Bird might have been up to, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
I think there's some conversation with some folks on the train basically about, there are a couple other folks that were killed, maybe a boxer, football player. She's turns out that she's this serial killer psychopath that looks for athletes to kill.
Warwick Fairfax:
Now, Roy wasn't to know that, but if you have eyes to see, she looked like trouble. She had that dark quality. She's almost like the dark angel. And we'll see there's an angel of light later on, but they both say similar things, which is eerie in one sense.
Warwick Fairfax:
They have a conversation about, "Are you going to be the best there is?" And he says, "Yes." And Harriet says, "Is that all there is, being the best in baseball? Is that all there is?" And Roy is non-plussed and says, "Well, what else is there?" And she almost laughs at him at a condescending way and says, "Don't you know?"
Warwick Fairfax:
She views him as this priceless, naive young kid when he says, "Can I see you?" And she said, "Oh, you're precious." She's really messed up. But in some ways in her own, screwed up psychopathic way, she finds him endearing.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, she's like a spider. He was drawn right into the web by his naivety, useful arrogance, exuberance, and maybe his moral foundations of letting his girl, Iris, down, or not fully moored and he gets sucked right into the psychopath and pays a terrible price.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that terrible price, again, he doesn't die because the next thing we see is on the screen that says, "Sixteen years later." and we flash forward in Roy Hobbs's life. And 16 years later, he shows up at the park of the New York Knights who are, at the moment we meet them, the worst team in Major League Baseball, certainly in the national league of Major League Baseball.
Gary Schneeberger:
Roy comes there. We come to learn pretty quickly, he's not a pitcher anymore. We don't know exactly why, but we're left. It's pretty obvious assumption that being shot in the stomach took away his ability to throw fastballs the way he could throw. But he's a hitter now. And he was playing semi-pro ball.
Gary Schneeberger:
One of the Knights scouts signed him. And that should be the start, right? That should be the start however delayed of his dreams coming true, but it turns it into another crucible for Roy. The manager of that club, Pop Fisher, great baseball name by the way. Pop Fisher. Come on, couldn't have been better.
Gary Schneeberger:
Pop Fisher refuses to play him. He won't even let him take batting practice even though the Knights are truly terrible and could... I mean, it's not going to make them worse. They need a shot in the arm. We come to learn that there're complex forces going on to make the Knights lose.
Gary Schneeberger:
The Judge, that's all we know him by is the Judge, he's the partner that Pop, the manager, had to take on in ownership. Pop has owned also has owned the club. He had to take him on as a partner. And the Judge will get the team all to himself if the Knights fail to win the pennant.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, Pop thinks signing an old rookie like Hobbs. And Hobbs is supposed to be in his mid to late thirties by this time, certainly older than most rookies start playing baseball. Pop thinks this might be the Judge's ploy to get the team to not win the pennant so that Pop loses the team and the Judge gets it.
Gary Schneeberger:
And then, there are other impediments to the Knights' success that are slowly revealed in this section of the film, impediments to the Knights' success. One is a gambler named Gus, played again with just a joyful malevolence by Darren McGavin, and his moll, Memo Paris played by Kim Bassinger.
Gary Schneeberger:
Gus's job is to weasel his way into getting the players to throw games, payoffs, date Memo, do things like that. They throw games. Her job is to distract the players from the goal at hand, which is winning baseball games. But then, something happens that opens the door for Roy to get on the field.
Gary Schneeberger:
The Knights' best player, Bump Bailey, who has been dating Memo and he's been throwing games pretty clearly, he starts to pick it up because Pop threatens he's going to play Hobbs if Bump doesn't get better.
Gary Schneeberger:
Bump starts playing better. He ends up dying in an on-field accident when he runs through the fence. And that leads to Roy finally getting on the field. And it allows him to start living his dream of being the best there ever was in this game. From the moment he gets in games, exciting things start happening, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, it's funny. There's all sorts of twists and turns. We learn that the Judge tells their scout, "Make sure you find people that are hopeless that will guarantee the team will lose." Because if the team loses, then he gets control of the whole team.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so later on, when Roy starts doing well, he says, "What is the deal here? You were meant to find people that were guaranteed to help us lose." "I found some has-been in the middle of nowhere in his mid to late thirties. I did my level best to do what you told me, Judge."
Warwick Fairfax:
So, sometimes in this case, the Judge's own malevolence works against him. And Roy Hobbs gets a second chance when he shouldn't have. Any sane person wouldn't have given a second chance, but he got a second chance just because they wanted to guarantee the team lost. So, the joke's on the Judge there.
Warwick Fairfax:
But again, eerie foreshadowing with Bump Bailey. It seemed like whoever Memo gets involved with, whether it's deliberately or not deliberately, they don't do well. She's like the kiss of death in terms of your ability to play well. So, happens to Bump Bailey, but obviously Roy doesn't see that. But he gets his chance. And after a long time, 15, 16 years, he begins to play well. So, it does seem like life is finally on the up and up for Roy.
Gary Schneeberger:
And playing well is an understatement. I mean, Roy is truly a revelation on the baseball field as a hitter. He's quickly making the news reels. Remember this is 1939. That's the season that this all happens now when Roy takes the field.
Gary Schneeberger:
And kids love him. When he first gets in the game, right, one of the first things he does is he... you've heard the expression, "Knock the cover off the ball." He knocks the cover off the ball, right? It starts raining and he knocks the cover off the ball. That is how great he is.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I haven't shared this with you before now, Warwick, because I want to see how you react to this. But in that montage scene where Roy has just taking it to Major League Baseball and just playing better than anyone has ever played before, there's a scene of baseball cards rolling off a printing press.
Gary Schneeberger:
And this is one of those cards. This was one of the prop cards that rolled down that was created for the movie. That's Roy Hobbs right there. But there's a back of the card. Now, the back of the card, like any baseball card on the back, it lists statistics and career achievements.
Gary Schneeberger:
And here's the statistics that Roy Hobbs puts together in 1939. He played 72 games. Remember, he comes in the middle of the season when the Knights are doing poorly. He has 307 at-bats, 171 hits, 42 doubles, 13 triples, 51 homeruns in 72 games, and 307 at-bats with 106 RBIs. His bat in average, .557.
Gary Schneeberger:
Now, I did some number crunching here. The greatest players in baseball history, the most prolific homerun hitters in real-life Major League Baseball history, Babe Ruth averaged in one season about 8 at bats for every homerun.
Gary Schneeberger:
What this computes to if he stepped to the plate 307 times and hit 51 homeruns, Roy Hobbs hit a homerun every six times he came to the plate. He is better than anybody. Truly, he is the best who ever played the game. This covers everything about Roy's career. It's fascinating that they actually put numbers to that. And that's who he is. I mean, what's your reaction to that? Batting .557 and hits a homerun every six times he came to the plate?
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, you would know better than I, but has anybody else ever batted 557 in the season?
Gary Schneeberger:
No.
Warwick Fairfax:
Again, you know baseball more than I do, but the guy, the Boston Red Sox-
Gary Schneeberger:
Ed Williams?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. Well, he was 400 and you think, "Oh, you're 400. You're incredible, but it's very, very few." I mean, if that season was representative, he truly would've been the best there ever was. Nobody would touch that. That's an incredible card. And those statistics just paint the picture of The Natural. He was the best there ever was.
Gary Schneeberger:
But then, some things happened in the film that indicate that perhaps Roy hasn't completely learned the lesson of his crucible. He begins dating Memo, the gambler's sidekick who helps him get players to throw games or to get distracted.
Gary Schneeberger:
And in doing that, he begins to go into a very bad slump. We hearken back, I think back, Warwick, in this case to what his dad said to him when he was young, "Talent's not enough. You have to work at it. You have to make it. You have to build on it. You have to continue to get better. Talent isn't enough. Natural talent isn't enough."
Gary Schneeberger:
And I think it's a key crucible leadership principle what we see here when Roy begins dating Memo, gets distracted and begins to slump and the team starts to lose again. And that's this, don't lose sight of your mission. Don't allow distractions to cause you to drift from it or it can feed more crucibles.
Gary Schneeberger:
Roy Hobbs has stopped living his life on purpose when he begins to date Memo. He's living it distracted. And it takes success and the potential for significance away from him at least for a time.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's a pretty good analysis of what happens in that section of the movie where he's caught up again with the flashy beautiful woman. It's mission drift in some sense, right? It pulls him away from his single-minded desire over those 16 years and the years before that when he was a kid to be the best there ever was.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's so true, Gary. In a sense, he has the crucible of success up until the time that he starts dating Memo. You quoted the stats of the amount of homeruns he's going to hit in the season over 50 and batting average over 500.
Warwick Fairfax:
The problem is when you have that kind of success... and I'm sure the papers were saying, "Where's this guy come from? He's incredible. He's better than anybody." You've got all these kids wanting him to sign his autograph, baseball cards.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's hard to withstand that level of adulation and success that Roy Hobbs had at that point in the season and before he started dating Memo. So then, success begins to erode your judgment. And in a sense, Memo is maybe not a foreshadowing, but the reverse of what Harriet Bird was who was the dark angel, if you will, an evil person. Anybody who's a psychopath, run arounds killing people, to me is pretty close to the definition of evil.
Warwick Fairfax:
Memo wasn't quite at that level, but clearly her motives as somebody that was on the payroll of this gambler guy, Gus. And if she didn't play ball, so to speak, the nice apartment, the money would all be gone. So, she pretty much did whatever he told her to do, "Distract Roy Hobbs. Get in a relationship with him." "Okay, boss." Off she goes. But she was in a sense a similar type, although not quite as bad, if you will, as Harriet Bird.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so, your point is, why didn't Roy see that? He would later on as we'll get to, but he didn't at this point. He got distracted, starts sleeping with her. And you have an eerie scene as they're about to go up to her room in which he bumps into Pop Fisher, the manager of the Knights who happens to be Memo's uncle. And he says, "Look, I love her, but don't get messed up with her because bad things will happen."
Warwick Fairfax:
This is before he dated her. Before he slept with her or anything, Pop Fisher knew. "Look, I may love my niece, but she's trouble. Stay away from trouble." He's not that young anymore, but he doesn't listen to very wise advice. And so, he just walks into that crucible and bad things happen and his game suffers.
Warwick Fairfax:
But you would think he would learn by now, stay clear of trouble, especially when you've been given a heads up, but he's too headstrong and too caught up with success. He hasn't learned the lessons from that crucible. He just can't see it.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. Pulling back from talking about movie heroes, that's something that can affect any of us, right, the idea that... we use the phrase, "It's not one-and-done." a lot and it's usually about forgiveness or about something like that. Learning the lesson and applying the lessons of your crucible is not one-and-done either. I mean, you can get it right 50 times. That doesn't mean you're going to get it right to 51st time.
Gary Schneeberger:
And I think there's a lesson for all of us, not in a baseball context, but in a life context that Roy Hobbs has blind spots and he chases some things that aren't good for him. The allure of an attractive cosmopolitan woman proves too much to resist. All of us have the ability to fall back into patterns even if we've "conquered" them 50 times before or five times before. True? I mean, it's never a one-and-done.
Warwick Fairfax:
I think really what this illustrates is whether you're an athlete, you're good at finance, the arts, whatever your gifting is, you cannot see all of your self-esteem wrapped up in your gifting, which in a sense what was the biggest mistake of Roy Hobbs in a sense is, certainly one of the top ones, having his whole self-image wrapped up in his gifting.
Warwick Fairfax:
Nothing wrong enjoying baseball or whatever you do, but he had his self-image wrapped up in that. As he was refining his craft of batting and before pitching, the aspect of his life that he was not crafting, he was not in the batting cage, if you will, of character. He wasn't refining his character, his humility, his self-awareness.
Warwick Fairfax:
If he was trying to focus on his humility, his character, I think he may well have seen Memo coming. And people of character listen to good advice like Pop Fisher, his manager, but he didn't. So, he was good in baseball, but his batting average in terms of his character, that wasn't over 500. That may have been right less than 100. He was not working on it.
Warwick Fairfax:
And because of his lack of ability to hone his character, his humility, his self-awareness, he went through in some case self-imposed crucibles, first one when he was a young kid. One could debate that. But Memo, she was trouble.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's an interesting point to make. The movie's called The Natural. And it's true you can be a "natural" in some things in your life, and you can have blind spots and trip and fall, and hit crucibles in other aspects of your life.
Gary Schneeberger:
We've talked about being the GOAT. GOAT syndrome. You can be the GOAT in certain things. You can be the natural in certain things, but that doesn't mean that you don't have blind spots in other areas of your life that can truly cause you some crucibles. And the key to overcoming that is to learn the lessons of those crucibles and apply them.
Gary Schneeberger:
And here's the good news about the movie, The Natural. Roy Hobbs learns the lessons of his crucible. It's a key pivotal person and moment in doing that. You made reference earlier on, Warwick, to a white angel to compliment or counterbalance the dark angel that was Harriet, the woman who shot him. And that's when his young love, Iris, reenters his life.
Gary Schneeberger:
She does that when the Knights travel to where she lives in Chicago. And they begin to rekindle their relationship as a friendship. She says she has this son. Her son loves baseball and is a huge fan of Roy's. She attends a game when he's still going through his slump.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he has two strikes on him. And when that happens, she stands up in the crowd. She's got a big hat on and people are yelling at her to sit down because they can't see. But again, there's a setting sun behind her. She's illuminated. And Roy senses something because he hits a game winning homerun. His slump ends right there.
Gary Schneeberger:
Iris, his first love, stands up. He senses something is different. Something's going on with two strikes on him. One of his 51 homeruns that year goes sailing out of the park and the Knights start another winning streak. That scene to me is one of the most beautiful scenes in the film. Back lit, she's all lit up. Her white hat, it gives me tingles even to talk about it now. Pivotal scene though for sure.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, Gary. I mean, if Harriet Bird was the angel of darkness, Iris was the angel of light. And because it's a movie, imagery is so important. She's wearing this beautiful white dress and white hat. And her hat is just glimmering in the sun. It is almost like a halo. I mean, she is meant to be not just his long-lost love, but just an angel of light.
Warwick Fairfax:
As again, we talked about Star Wars, the force versus darkness and the empire. When you turn towards the light, whatever that means for you and your belief system and philosophy, good things happen. You turn towards darkness, bad things like crucible happens. It sounds simplistic, but most major philosophies and religions, that is really a key part of civilization for thousands and thousands of years.
Warwick Fairfax:
There are the forces of good and the forces of evil. And your life is better when you turn to the forces of good. Sounds simplistic, but life is tough and you get tempted by success, fame, a lot of other things in life. And so, here's a moment where this angel of light begins to come into his life and things get better. A lesson to be learned here.
Gary Schneeberger:
And there's a great crucible leadership principle when Roy asks her later why she stood up. Why at the game did she stand up when he had two strikes on him? And she says this to him, "I didn't want to see you fail." That is a critical crucible leadership truth.
Gary Schneeberger:
We need the support of others who believe in us to help us move beyond our setbacks and failures. And that's what reenters his life and sets him now on the path toward true significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
We talk a lot about surrounding himself with a team of fellow travelers. As many athletes do, you can surround yourself with an entourage. People will want to get some of the money, some of the gravy, some of the crumbs that fall off you. And maybe they'll get a few thousand here or there, which if you're making hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars as top athletes do, they can throw out a few thousand like it's a $1 bill.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so, there are some out there that they only want to be around us for the fame and the success. As soon as that fame goes, they're out of here. They're gone. Those aren't fellow travelers. Those aren't the team you want to be. Those aren't the teammates you want to have.
Warwick Fairfax:
Iris is different. When she says she doesn't want to see him fail, it's not because oh, somehow, she'll get more money or whatever. She believes in who he is. She loves him, believes in him. She wants the best for him, not because of anything that he can do for her. She wants to help him just out of the goodness and purity of her heart. Those are the kind of people you want to surround yourself with, the Irises of this world.
Warwick Fairfax:
Too many of us surround ourselves with, be it male or female, the Harriets and Memos. It's easy to say, "Oh, that's not me." Really? You've never had somebody in your life that maybe you made a poor choice, be it in high school or elsewhere, maybe a business partner? Many of us have made poor choices of who we surrounded ourselves with. Iris is the kind of person you do want to be on your team, you do want to have in your camp.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that relationship, having Iris back in his life, is critical to Roy's moving past his crucibles that come as the movie begins its march to its climax. He's hospitalized after Memo poisons him to keep him from leading the team to victory in the pennant.
Gary Schneeberger:
After Iris stands up, the team starts winning again. They're on the precipice of winning the pennant. If they win the pennant, Pop Fisher gets the team all by himself and the Judge is out. So, Memo, undoubtedly under the auspices of Gus, poisons him.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it ends up with Roy in the hospital for three days because the silver bullet that's still inside him that he was shot with by Harriet is eroding away his stomach lining. The doctor tells him he's got to quit playing baseball or his stomach could literally blow apart.
Gary Schneeberger:
The Judge shows up in his hotel room with $20,000 in an envelope and offers it as a bribe to ensure that the team loses, to ensure Roy doesn't go back and play. And then, another visit in the hospital.
Gary Schneeberger:
And Warwick, this is the moment, a slice of that we played at the top of the show, a clip of Iris's visit to the hospital, where they have this conversation where they talk about some really important and really meaningful things that helped Roy overcome both the crucibles of his past and the crucibles of his present.
Gary Schneeberger:
At one point we heard in the clip at the top of the show, he says, "Some mistakes, I guess we never stop paying for." He is at the end of his resilience rope, but she refuses to let him stay there. She tells him, "I believe we have two lives, the life we learn with and the one we live with after that."
Gary Schneeberger:
I've heard that line and I've watched the movie like 25 times in my life. When I heard that line as I was screening the film for this discussion, it struck me as, "That's pure crucible leadership. That's learn the lessons of your crucible and apply them. That's it didn't happen to you. It happened for you. That's from our greatest pain comes our greatest purpose."
Gary Schneeberger:
It's as if Iris Lemon co-created Crucible Leadership with you by saying that line. It's just so pivotal to everything we talk about on this show and in Crucible Leadership, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, it's one of my... maybe it is my favorite scene in the movie. We all need people like Iris in our camp. I mean, here he is. He realizes the mistake he's made. I think later on it will be even clearer about who Memo is. But I think at that point, he realizes the mistakes. And he's just in just self-flagellation mode. Some mistakes, we never stop paying for.
Warwick Fairfax:
He says to her, "I didn't see it coming." In other words, Harriet Bird. "I should have." He's like, "I should have seen it. I should have seen it." And maybe you should have, but when you're young, sometimes you don't see things when you're young and naive and headstrong in your own success.
Warwick Fairfax:
And Iris says, "But you were so young. It's like you were young." In other words, "Okay. Yes, you made a mistake, but you've got to forgive yourself. You've got to cut yourself some slack. You've got to move on."
Warwick Fairfax:
And he's just haunted by this idea that, "I could've been the best there ever was. I could've walked down my hometown and people would've said, 'There goes Roy Hobbs, the best there ever was.' I could have broken every record in the book." And that's when she talks about, "We have two lives, the life we learn with and life we live after that."
Warwick Fairfax:
And she's like, "Okay, you could have broken all these records. Well, so what?" I mean, she says it nicely. And then, she ends with really not even a drop, but a dollop of grace. Because I think he realizes at that point, "This season's probably going to be it." His stomach is not in good shape and they pull out silver bullets.
Warwick Fairfax:
She says to him, "Think of all the young boys, all the young kids you've inspired. You are so successful now, and success in the sense of significance. Look at who you've inspired." So, she's trying to lift him up. "And so, don't worry about being the best there ever was. Don't worry about all the records you won't maybe be able to achieve."
Warwick Fairfax:
So, she really is his angel of light that's really helping to produce some character formation. Roy has been batted. He needs a bit of grace and love and character formation to understand what life is about. It's not about records and stats and homeruns. It's about how you treat people. It's your character. It's living a life on purpose, dedicated serving others as we define a life of significance.
Warwick Fairfax:
She is really his muse, his advocate for what life is about and really a life of significance. It's such a pivotal scene because she's speaking really truth to him, really crucible leadership philosophy, if you will. It's not about records. It's about living your life in service to others. It's a great scene. And that's why we need people like Iris in our lives. They advocate and help us be the people that we always hoped and wished we would be at a heart of hearts.
Gary Schneeberger:
And while in the past in this movie and earlier instances, Roy doesn't quite grasp the lesson of a crucible or the advice of a loved one in the same way that he grasps baseball's the same way that he hits fastballs.
Gary Schneeberger:
But in this case, in the very next scene, he grasps because he goes to the Judge's office with that $20,000 that the Judge had given him to just lay in bed and not play the next day to ensure that the Knights would lose and not win the pennant. He shows up to the Judge's office. He's got the $20,000. He wants to give it back.
Gary Schneeberger:
Memo is there. Gus is there. All the conspiracy folks who are out to end his efforts to win the pennant and to achieve significance, they're all there. And that's a pretty moving scene too, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It really is. And basically, Memo, I think I said earlier, if we want to have a relationship, you can't play. If you play, we're done. I mean, she is following orders from Gus and ultimately the Judge. And it's like, "I'm playing. This may be my last game, but I'm playing. I don't know if we'll win or lose, but I'm going to give it my all."
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, she can't stand that. He is defying her. He's defying the Judge and Gus. And so, she gets a gun out, fires it somewhere, fortunately not at him. He looks at her, takes the gun away from her and says in a moving sad, almost chilling note, "You're right, Memo, we have met before." And that really hearkens back.
Warwick Fairfax:
As we watched the movie, we know he is talking about Harriet Bird. Maybe Memo isn't quite at that level of psychopathic serial killer, but she's not a force for good in his life.
Warwick Fairfax:
And at that point, maybe he's learning the lesson from what Iris has told him a short time before and it crystallizes in his mind, "People like Memo, they're not good for me. They bring me down. They erode my character. They do the opposite of helping me live a life of significance. They lead me down a path leading a dark life that hurts me and hurts others."
Warwick Fairfax:
All of that was crystallized I think in that scene, in that moment, when she shot the gun. At that point, he actually clearly did listen to Iris's advice and was living it out. It's a great scene.
Gary Schneeberger:
And Roy of course does play, right? He does get out of bed. He does play. Spoiler alert, the Knights win the pennant. Pop wins sole control of the team. To be the hero, Roy must first have the inspiration Iris gives him by passing him a note while he's on the bench that her son is his son too. He's the father of her child. He also must survive.
Gary Schneeberger:
And this is where the train speeds toward the conclusion of The Natural. He has to survive a whole bunch of last-minute crucibles. First one, Wonderboy is broken. He fouls a ball away and he breaks his bat, this bat that has fueled his record setting season. Probably to him... baseball players, sports athletes are very superstitious. And, "Oh my gosh, my bat that I made from a felled tree in my yard that was hit by lightning, it's gone. What do I do?"
Gary Schneeberger:
Interesting side light, the bat is replaced by the very sweet and very shy and very quiet bat boy for the Knights named Bobby Savoy, who earlier in the movie, Roy teaches him how to make a bat. That was the first flash of the life of significance, Roy pouring into somebody.
Gary Schneeberger:
Bobby Savoy makes this bat. So, he gives his bat, the Savoy Special, to Roy. So, that's what Roy goes up to the plate with, with a strike on him. Then the Pittsburgh Pirates, who they're playing for this one game playoff to get in the world series to win the pennant, they bring out...
Gary Schneeberger:
Basically, to win the game Roy's got to beat his younger self, right? Because the guy that the Pirates bring up to pitch is a young farm boy, blonde-haired, lefthanded pitcher who throws the fastest ball in the league. It's who Roy Hobbs was going to be if he hadn't been shot by Harriet Bird. He's got to defeat himself in a sense. He's got to overcome his demons in a sense to get that victory.
Gary Schneeberger:
And then, as if that's not enough, with two strikes on him, his side starts bleeding from where the damage that the bullet caused. And it shows up on his jersey. Blood shows up on his jersey. I know there's a point you wanted to make about when the blood does show up and how the catcher reacts Warwick.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, I mean, I think maybe the direction have been quite timed at... the visual was right, but at least at first, I thought it looked like the catchers thought that there was blood on his jersey and gives the signs and pitch it inside, which maybe would be harder to hit. But didn't quite get the thinking of the scene right.
Warwick Fairfax:
But it would seem like for all the world, even if it was after the sign, the catcher's thinking, "This guy's done. I can see blood. There is no way this guy's going to be able to hit anything." But he was proven to be wrong.
Gary Schneeberger:
Indeed. And the very next pitch that comes in, listener, Roy Hobbs hits a game-winning homerun that goes up into the light stanchions in the stadium, blows them up. And it's like celebratory fireworks falling down on the field. It is one of the most rousing scenes in my motion picture history of the movies I like.
Gary Schneeberger:
Just to give you an idea of what that moment's like, we're going to play just the audio on the audio version here of the podcast of what that sounded like. And you'll recognize instantly the music of The Natural. And if you don't feel a little tingle or want to stand up and applaud when you hear this, you should because I do. Here's the ultimate moment from The Natural.
Gary Schneeberger:
I need to stop here, Warwick, just to say one thing about my own youthful Natural moment. I haven't told you this before. But I'm not older than 20 years old. I'm probably 19 or 20 years old. I'm playing city league softball in my hometown. It's a night game and the lights are on.
Gary Schneeberger:
Now, I hit a foul ball. It's not even a fair ball. It's not a homerun. I hit a foul ball that goes into the lights and they start to spark. I felt like Roy Hobbs. My teammates called me Roy for the rest of the game even though it was a foul ball.
Gary Schneeberger:
I have no idea if the rest of that bat I made an out, I got a hit. I have no idea if I knocked in a run. I have no idea of anything. But my memory going on 35, 40 years since that moment, I still remember how it felt to hit that ball to have it hit that light array, and then for sparks to fly out. And immediately, everybody, there's 11 people in the stands, and they're all like, "Ooh." I mean, I still feel a tingle about that moment because that is the deep impact.
Gary Schneeberger:
We talked about these crucible moments and how to extract crucible moments in this series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles. We're pulling out principles that will help you overcome your own crucibles. But the reason that we're doing it in movies is because let's not forget, let's not lose sight of the fact that movies move us. Movies stick with us.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that I share that experience not to say, "Hey, I hit a foul ball and I made the lights spark." I say that to say that movie so moved me, that when I did something that was nowhere near what Roy Hobbs did, I guarantee I didn't bat .557 that year, but just that foul ball and the lights coming out to be called Roy Hobbs and to have that moment still sticks with me.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's like you had your Roy Hobbs moment. It's like, "Okay, maybe I'm not Roy Hobbs, but for one at-bat, for one moment, maybe just a little bit, maybe I'm channeling a little bit of Roy Hobbs within me that sense of just that wonderful magical moment."
Warwick Fairfax:
It's a tremendous scene. And we'll get to maybe the last scene after that here in a bit, but it was such a redemptive moment. It wasn't just about himself. because as we said earlier, if the Knights were to win the pennant, then Pop Fisher would get to own the team and be able to buy out the Judge. If they lost, then it would be all the Judge's team.
Warwick Fairfax:
And Roy Hobbs knew that. He knew he wasn't just playing for himself. He wanted to do whatever he could to help Pop Fisher own the team and get the frankly, evil Judge if you will out of the picture. So, it's a wonderful moment. He's beat up. It probably is going to be the last at-bat he's ever going to have as far as we know.
Warwick Fairfax:
And there is this sense of redemption, some grace. And in the stands after he hits the ball, you just see Iris and it's just joyful tears of thanksgiving and pride. And she's just so happy for Roy because she knows how much it means to him. She knows it's probably going to be his last at-bat. She's just filled with joy for him.
Warwick Fairfax:
Again, we want people like Iris who, when we have our Roy Hobbs moments, which isn't all the time, again would be just cheering us and just having tears in their eyes because they're so happy for us. It's a wonderful redemptive moment that wasn't just about him. It was for his team. And especially, it was for Pop Fisher. And so, there was some lot of...
Warwick Fairfax:
At that point, I honestly believe, I don't know that we fully know, that Roy Hobbs wasn't doing it all for himself and the records, that there was a higher purpose behind that hit, if that makes sense.
Gary Schneeberger:
Absolutely. And it's funny Warwick, you said, it's probably his last at-bat. We don't know. We do know. Here's that baseball card that I had and it has the narrative of Roy Hobbs's career. And this is what it says about the moment that we just talked about.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, he was badly hurt, but he famously hit the game-winning homerun in the ninth, a homerun that crashed into the lights, sending sparkles everywhere. This is what it says after that, "Roy Hobbs never played again." So, we do know according to this card, the Knights without Hobbs were swept easily by the Yankees in the World Series.
Gary Schneeberger:
Hobbs's uniform, which he actually bled through, is on display at the Baseball Hall of Fame, as is his Wonderboy bat. Why that doesn't make me sad when I read that they lost the world series is if... there's an earlier scene in the movie where Pop's like, "I don't even care about the series. I just want to win the pennant." Because by winning the pennant, Pop gets to keep the team all to himself and the Judge is out.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, the fact that without Roy, they didn't win a game. They lost all four games to the Yankees. I mean, boo the Yankees because I'm not a Yankees fan. But that still ends it on a great note. And here's the last bit. Hobbs moved back to Sabotac Valley, that town in Iowa, and married Iris Lemon where they lived out their quiet lives.
Gary Schneeberger:
People who had seen him play insist that if he could have stayed healthy, Roy Hobbs would've been the greatest player in the history of the game. He was a natural. That last scene that you referred to, Warwick, is a scene that hearkens back to the beginning of the movie. There's catch being played in a farm field and Roy's playing catch again. But this time, Roy's the dad who's playing catch with his son.
Gary Schneeberger:
And the camera cuts to... I mean, he's smiling. His son is running through the field. He's smiling. And they cut to Iris and she's smiling. And that is the life of significance that Roy Hobbs didn't realize was on the other side of the greatest of all time, the best there ever was in this game. The true life of significance is what he and Iris and their boy lived out over, we don't know how many more years, but clearly, they lived it out and they were happy.
Warwick Fairfax:
So well said. I mean, in a sense, the movie has come full circle. It started with Roy pitching to his beloved dad, and now he's pitching to his son. And there's nothing wrong with being successful in baseball, football, the arts, business, but true success is not about numbers, whether it's RBIs, homeruns, money in the bank account, houses, whatever record it is.
Warwick Fairfax:
True success is often simpler. It's defined by your character, how you treat people. It's throwing catch to your kid. It's being there at their dance recitals, at their baseball games. It's family. It's every bit as significant is just what you pour into your family. And I think Roy realized he loved baseball and that's great, but you don't want to be owned by records or owned by something.
Warwick Fairfax:
He realized with Iris's help that much as he loved baseball, there was more to life than records, more to life even than baseball. We don't know, but I think in some sense, he probably came to some sort of peace about life. It didn't turn out the way that maybe he wanted it to or thought it could be, but he has his beloved Iris, his wife. He's there with his son that he didn't know he had.
Warwick Fairfax:
And one thinks he probably had a pretty good life and he accepted what had happened. He learned from his crucibles and realized there's more to life than numbers and records, and RBIs and homeruns. It's those around you.
Warwick Fairfax:
Life of significance is measured in ways that are not just about numbers. They're measured in character and those that we love and give back to. So, it was just a beautiful scene at the end that really hearkens back to what a life of significance really is.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that, listener, is the time of the show. I'm not going to land a plane, come on. I'm going to catch the final out right there. Game's over. As we do with every episode of this series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles, we want to leave you with a point of reflection about the movie that we've talked about today and the hero we've talked about today, The Natural and Roy Hobbs.
Gary Schneeberger:
And what Warwick and I want to direct your attention is to Wonderboy, Roy's bat. That was the bat he fashioned from a felled tree destroyed by lightning. Roy Hobbs was able to make something special and beautiful and helpful to his pursuit of a life of significance from something that was lost and destroyed.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, ask yourself this, what are the potential Wonderboys in your life? Where can you create beauty from ashes? Be it something physical or something emotional. Where has the train gone off the tracks? And you can put it back and create something out of your pain with new purpose that helps you lead a life of significance and leave a legacy.
Gary Schneeberger:
What's your Wonderboy? We'll leave you with that question. And we'll leave you with this. Again, it's not homework. It's, take some time if you want to be on track with us next week when we talk about the next hero in our series, and that is Robin Hood.
Gary Schneeberger:
Now, we're going to do it in a couple of ways. So, Warwick is a big fan. And so, initially, we were going to focus only on the Russell Crowe real Robin Hood story, but then Warrick said, "Let's weave in some stuff from the Errol Flynn Robin Hood too." So, we're going to get both of those movies. So, Robin Hood is the next hero that we're going to talk about on Lights, Camera, Crucibles.
Gary Schneeberger:
And until that next time, listener. Remember, we know your crucibles are tough. Sometimes, they can be your fault. Sometimes, you can have a hand in them. Roy Hobbs certainly had a hand in some of his with some poor decisions he made. But even those crucibles are not the end of your story.
Gary Schneeberger:
There's certainly not a reason to, as Warwick has said many times, stay in bed with the covers over your head to self-flagellation all the time. You can move beyond them. You can forgive yourself. You can forgive others. Others can forgive you.
Gary Schneeberger:
You can work your way through those things in the same way that Roy Hobbs worked through them with some good people who supported him and had his best interest at heart around him. And he moved beyond those crucibles, and he ended up in a life of significance. And that's what can happen for you too.
Gary Schneeberger:
Your crucible experiences can be the launching off point for the best story of your life. As difficult as they may be in the story you're living right now, you can learn the lessons from them. You can catapult yourself to an ending that's just like Roy Hobbs had an ending because it ends at, like it did for him, a life of significance.
We say often on the show that crucibles don’t happen to us, they happen for us. And in this second episode of our special summer series, LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure, we examine that truth as played out in the story of Batman. It’s a powerful tale about how Bruce Wayne did not let the unimaginable trauma of seeing his parents murdered when he was a boy keep him from a life of significance. He found purpose in his pain by training his body and his mind to strike fear into the hearts of those who would prey on the innocent. And if you think he does it as a lone vigilante … well, you just might change your mind after listening.
Highlights
Warwick’s introduction to Batman (3:45)
Batman’s cinematic history (5:40)
Warwick’s perspective on Batman’s enduring popularity as a movie hero (10:15)
What makes Batman Batman? (14:34)
Why Batman embraced a bat as a symbol (19:56)
The lesson we can learn from Bruce Wayne about using our material resources to help others (25:15)
Batman’s uniqueness among superheroes (28:50)
What makes Batman different from The Joker? (32:07)
Batman doesn’t just train his body (41:03)
The Dark Knight’s team of fellow travelers (44:24)
His life of significance with Catwoman (50:08)
The importance of never giving up (54:59)
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Eddie:
I'm getting out of here, man.
Nick:
Hey, shut up, man. Listen to me. There ain't no bat.
Eddie:
Yeah. Well, you shouldn't have turned the gun on that kid, man. You shouldn't have turned the gun on that-
Nick:
Hey, you want your cut of this money or not? Now, shut up, shut up.
Nick:
Don't kill me. Don't kill me, man. Don't kill me. Don't kill me, man.
Batman:
I'm not going to kill you. I want you to do me a favor. I want you to tell all your friends about me.
Nick:
What are you?
Batman:
I'm Batman.
Gary Schneeberger:
We say often on the show that crucibles don't happen to us, they happen for us. And in this second episode of our special summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us About Overcoming Setbacks and Failure, we examine that truth as played out in the story of Batman. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, co-host of the show. There have been no shortage of films through the years about Gotham City's Dark Knight. You might even say there have been a lot of bats in the cinematic belfry but Warwick and I spend most of our time this week discussing Batman 1989, starring Michael Keaton, who you just heard in that clip. It's a powerful story about how Bruce Wayne did not let the unimaginable trauma of seeing his parents murdered when he was a boy, keep him from a life of significance. He found purpose in his pain by training his body and his mind to strike fear into the hearts of those who would prey on the innocent. And if you think he does it as a lone vigilante, well, keep listening. You might just change your mind.
Gary Schneeberger:
I don't know when you got into Batman first or became aware of Batman first, Warwick. For me, it was as a kid. I would come home from school and that old sixties TV show starring Adam West, which is a bit campy but fun for kids, that was always on television, and I watched that with religious fervor when I was a kid. In fact, last week, when we were talking about Captain America, you made reference to kind of your own love of heroes and how that came to be. I was such a superhero geek. I have pictures of me with a birthday cake when I'm like six months old, a year old with Batman on the cake. That's what a geek I was.
Gary Schneeberger:
My brother, who's 14 years older than me, my brother, Dean, still makes fun of me because I used to call the little toys I had of Batman, I used to call them bendy men because they had like bendable things on them. So he still will ask me, because he sees things like this guy right here, who doesn't bend, but he'll see things that I have in my superhero memorabilia collection and ask if they're bendy men. So that's where my bonafides to be part of this series and my excitement comes from, but what was your first introduction to Batman that you can remember?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's the same as for you. I mean, in Australia, we had three commercial networks, channel nine, seven and 10, and so, they were all looking for content. So, a lot of our programming was the same as the US. So we absolutely, in the sixties, had the Batman TV series and growing up in the sixties and seventies, like you, I loved it, and we'll talk about this. In a sense, I could identify with Bruce Wayne growing up in this wealthy background, and yeah, I wasn't exactly Batman at night or during the day or whatever, and I didn't go into the layer of the Riddler or the Joker, and as you remember, whenever Adam West went in there, they always turned the camera like at a diagonal. So you had to-
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Turn your head left to sort of follow it. Every time he hit somebody, it would get like bam, pow, and there'd be like little cartoon animation, but I mean, I guess it was campy, but growing up then, you didn't think about that as a kid. You've got this good guy who is fighting evil and he's heroic and has Robin beside him and Commissioner Gordon and the whole thing. So yeah, I loved that TV series and have been a fan of Batman and his heroic deeds ever since.
Gary Schneeberger:
One of the things that is a touch point for a lot of folks of a certain age and even today, because it's on reruns on some cable networks, that is a common reference point, that TV show from the sixties, of a lot of folks when it comes to the Batman character. But that wasn't the first filmed entertainment of the Batman character. In fact, the first filmed entertainment was on the big screen, was on the movie screen and that was in 1943, just four years after the character was created in 1939 in Detective Comics, now called DC comics. They did those, if you remember, Warwick, those film serials that they would run. They would run them before the feature, not that you saw them because they were in the forties, but the concept is familiar.
Gary Schneeberger:
They would run these cliff hanger things. The Indiana Jones movies were kind of based off that, the rhythms of those old serials where there'd be like a self-contained half an hour and then the hero would be in danger at the end and you'd have to come back next week to see if he survived. But there were two of those, one in 1943 on Batman and Robin, and then they did another one in 1949. So, that was the cinematic birth, if you will, of Batman. But if you've been paying attention to the culture, listener, you know that one nor the sixties TV show were the last iterations of Batman that have made an impact on culture. You might say there's been a lot of bats in the cinematic belfry when it comes to Batman because in 1989, and that's going to be the focus of what we talk about mostly here is the 1989 film Batman starring Michael Keaton, which was kind of the birth of modern day superhero movies.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yes, I was a big fan of Superman back in 1978, but that was a little bit more ... They had a little bit of camp to it, but there was humor involved. Lex Luthor, the bad guy played by gene Hackman, was a little funny and there wasn't a lot of explosions and stunts and those kind of things going on in that movie. But Batman 1989 really brought that home. A film starring Michael Keaton and directed by Tim Burton, had a real cinematic flare to it and that really kicked off the modern superhero craze that we now see all the time where the top, any given year at the box office, right, seven of the top 10 movies are going to be superhero films. That's just the way it's been for the last couple of decades.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, Michael Keaton plays Batman in two movies, in 89. He comes back in Batman Returns, nicely titled. Then he leaves the role. Val Kilmer takes it over for Batman Forever. And then George Clooney takes it over in Batman and Robin and those movies, the one we're going to talk about today mostly is Batman, the original. Those movies got a little bit more campy as they went on and Michael Keaton left the role. Then there was a little bit of a pause for a while. And then Batman came back with Christian Bale playing Batman and some of the most acclaimed films in the Batman canon were Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Returns, all starting Christian Bale. Heath Ledger played the joker in the middle of one of those, The Dark Knight, and after he passed away, he won an Oscar for his portrayal. Fantastic, a lot grittier, but still captured the beats of Batman.
Gary Schneeberger:
That wasn't the end. Then just a couple years ago in 2016 and 2017, Ben Affleck shows up as Batman in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, and then in Justice League. And just this spring, in 2022, just a few months back, another Batman film premiered, came out, new Batman, sort of a new take on it, a new iteration. And that was The Batman starring Robert Pattinson, who was best known and made a lot of Batman fans kind of go, what, when he was cast because he was in the Twilight movies, those teen drama movies about a vampire and a werewolf vying for the affections of a young girl. So, I've seen all of those movies and what we'll talk about here, we're going to spend a lot of our time, most of our time focused on the 1989 Batman with Michael Keaton, but there are beats that run throughout all these movies that we're going to draw on.
Gary Schneeberger:
So with that, Warwick, what, as we are about to jump in to talk about Batman, you've seen all these films or most of these films, you're aware of what they're going on, why do you think, just, I haven't asked you this question before, why do you think Batman shows up so often and gets rebooted so many times? We've seen it a lot with Spiderman on the other side, on the Marvel cinematic universe, but in the DC cinematic universe, Batman's shown up even more than Superman on the big screen.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, I think starting with the 1989 version of Batman, Batman isn't really a cartoon superhero. There's some depth. He's a troubled soul in a way in these versions is a darkness, in a sense, but, and we'll talk about this obviously a fair bit, there's a redemptive quality of being able to face his inner demons. It's not easy. He's haunted by them in various iterations, but he uses his pain to really focus on others, to help the world, help Gotham City, help the people, and so there's this sense of he's troubled, but not defeated. He's down, but not out. And maybe there's something about there's darkness, but yet, there's a purpose. It's just a character that people are haunted by, in a good sense. He's not this everything's fine and it's all good. It's he's faced challenges, but yet, he fights them and despite his challenges, he, in a sense, overcomes them and lives a life of significance, focused on others. I think that's probably some of the reasons perhaps the people really resonate.
Gary Schneeberger:
And if Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible had a superhero mascot, Batman would be a pretty good example, wouldn't he? I mean, all of them, that's why we're doing this series because superheroes and other movie heroes have had crucibles in their films and they overcome them. But what you just described, Batman seems like he could be kind of an emblem for ... And I would endorse that if we wanted to make Batman the emblem of Crucible Leadership.
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, here's another ... I mean, obviously, I don't have a secret identity or at least if I do, I'm not telling anybody, but no, I don't have a secret identity, and obviously, I didn't go through what Bruce Wayne did in terms of his parents, but as listeners would know, I too grew up in a very wealthy background, and I didn't want to be defined by privilege. Didn't want that to be who I was known by. I'd like to think I lead a life with Crucible Leadership focused on helping others. I too had a Butler.
Warwick Fairfax:
So when you grow up in a wealthy family, sometimes you do. These days not always, frankly, but when I grew up, my dad, who was in his late fifties when I was born, he grew up before World War I, believe it or not. So, he grew up in that Victorian era, and so we had a butler and a chauffeur and a few others. So, my butler was an English butler, Joe Welton, Mr. Welton. He'd be offended if we called him, Joe, Mr. Welton. So I didn't have an Alfred, but I had a Mr. Welton and yeah, he didn't exactly get me ready for missions and all, but yeah, so in that sense, I can identify with that side of Bruce Wayne, certainly.
Gary Schneeberger:
Well, and that's something that we really have to focus on as we go through this discussion. This is, of course, not my voice. This is me speaking through the armored Batman helmet that Ben Affleck wore in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. So, I had to throw this in before we go into a more serious discussion of what we're going to talk about here.
Warwick Fairfax:
Oh, that is great. That is so good. That is channeling your inner Batman. So yeah, maybe we can come up with a Batman mask with Crucible Leadership on top. We'll see if we can do that without breaking copyright.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, for sure. Where we want to kind of start talking about here is the idea of what makes Batman Batman. And I think there are key things, as I said, there are key things in all these different movie versions that sort of run through them all, but one of the chief ways that Batman fights crime, one of the chief ways that he defeats, whether it's organized crime or it's super villains, is through leveraging his outward appearance, his embracing of the bat persona to really strike fear into the hearts of those who would prey on others.
Gary Schneeberger:
So that was a short clip, Warwick, but it was a very effective one of Michael Keaton's Batman really kind of debuting in the sense of, he appears to these villains who kind of have heard rumors that there's this guy, there's this creature stalking the alleyways of Gotham City at night. Then he makes his appearance and he's not going to kill him. He's not about that. We'll talk about that too. He wants to strike fear into their hearts, and he wants to do that by having them go tell their friends all about him, so that their friends know it's not a rumor. There is a Batman stalking the streets of Gotham and protecting its citizenry from that evil element. Very effective scene and not just in terms of the film, but in setting up who Batman is, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely, Gary. I mean, Batman is somebody that strikes, as you say, fear in the heart of evil doers, because they never know where he is going to be lurking, what building he's going to be looking down on them. At any moment, he could swoop down with his sort of ... In his bat cape and intimidate them and yeah, just strike fear into their hearts. So, next time they rob somebody or worse, they're going to be thinking, well, where's Batman, he's everywhere. And am I safe? Maybe I shouldn't do that bad thing. So in this sense, striking fear into his enemies is a good thing, because it might make them think twice before doing something evil. So it's very effective. Just his sheer persona and presence is effective.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. And the reason that we're talking about Batman here on a show called Beyond the Crucible, about how you move beyond your crucibles, is because Batman and all the heroes that we're going to be talking about in this series, from their crucible grows their life of significance, grows their heroism in some way, be that super heroism or sports heroism, or general kind of action heroism. It's from crucibles that that's birthed. And the crucible in the life of Batman begins when he's young Bruce Wayne, he's a boy and it's depicted very effectively in the movie that we're talking about here, Batman in 1989, but it's depicted in every movie in one way or another. And that is, his parents are walking him home after a night at the theater and a bad guy, a robber, shows up on the scene, pulls a gun and kills Batman's parents, who are rich, who have ... Batman's dad, very well known patron of the arts and businessman in Gotham City.
Gary Schneeberger:
Bad guy comes in, in this movie, 1989's Batman with Michael Keaton, it's a guy named Jack Napier who shoots Bruce Wayne's parents, and he's orphaned at a young age. They don't say exactly how old he is, but he's probably ... He looks like he's about eight, nine years old. His parents are murdered right before him. When it comes to crucibles that superheroes go through, I can't think of one that's probably as emotionally devastating as that. That would be a ... That's a tough one to get over. And all the Batman movies do a good job of showing the struggles that Bruce Wayne has as he moves on.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you're a young boy and we don't know his exact age, but he looks like his younger than 10, so I don't know if it's 7, 8, 9, he's a young kid, to see your parents murdered in front of you by this evil villain, that is going to give you nightmares. That's going to traumatize you. Frankly, that's going to screw you up. I mean, it's hard not to be screwed up by something so horrific at a young age. And so, the test he's going to face throughout his life is, am I going to be defined by this crucible? Am I going to let it defeat me and destroy me? Yes, it's probably going to haunt me for the rest of my life in a sense, but am I going to try and channel this pain that I feel for something good, something that's beneficial?
Warwick Fairfax:
And so, it's a horrendous experience. It traumatizes him. It clearly damages him. And really, the arc of the Batman movies is what does he do with his damage and trauma? Does he let it define him or does he channel it in a way that's more beneficial?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. In one of the movie series that we've talked about, the Christian Bale version of Batman, adds another beat on top of his parents being killed. And that is why he embraced a bat as his symbol. In Batman Begins, the first Christian Bale movie, before his parents are killed, Bruce falls through a well on the family property, and he ends up in this bat cave well under the ground. And he's very afraid because bats are milling about, he's very young and he's frightened of bats. And what ends up happening after his parents are killed is he's trying to find a way to avenge their deaths and to keep Gotham City safe. He adopts ... He learns to overcome his fear of bats.
Gary Schneeberger:
And he says this, Christian Bale's Batman says this about why he chose the bat as his identity. He said, "People need dramatic symbols to shake them out of their apathy. And I can't do that as Bruce Wayne. As a symbol, I can be incorruptible. I can be everlasting." So that is a little bit of a shading on why he picks bats that both allows him to shake up the populace to have something to believe in, while at the same time doing what we talked about earlier, striking fear into the hearts of the underworld in Gotham City and the villains of Gotham City, because let's face it, nobody really likes bats. They're scary, but he learns to master that fear. Again, one of the principles of bouncing back from your crucible is mastering fear. He uses that to master his fear. He then leverages the symbol of the bat to strike fear into the hearts of villains.
Gary Schneeberger:
And really, I mean, the way that this is a perfect crucible leadership story is that out of his crucible of losing his parents, Bruce Wayne commits himself to protecting others from having to go through similar crucibles. We talk all the time about a life of significance. Bruce Wayne lives a double life of significance in the sense that he has a secret identity. Bruce Wayne is his secret identity. And as Batman, his life of significance is striking fear into the hearts of those who want to strike fear into other people. He becomes the thing that can challenge those forces that murdered his parents.
Gary Schneeberger:
That is, again, when you talk about a life of significance, when you talk about learning the lessons of your crucible, not staying in your crucible, but moving beyond it to live a life of significance to serve others, this is, while nobody we've had on the show, as far as I know, is a superhero with a secret identity, a lot of the emotional beats of what they've gone through, our guests have gone through, what you've gone through, what I've gone through, similar to what Bruce Wayne goes through in his arc to becoming Batman. In all seriousness, true?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. You go through pain and suffering and in this iteration, Bruce Wayne embraces the trauma that he's gone through, the fear of bats and he uses that fear in channeling it in a good sense. That double life, sort of that second persona, allows him to be this figure that he probably couldn't have been with Bruce Wayne. It's just as I'm reflecting, I think of another sixties TV show, Zorro, in which you had Diego de la Vega, who was this sort of aristocratic noble in the then Spanish held California in, I don't know, 1830s or whatever it was, 1820s, and by day, he's this dilatant playboy guy, but at night, he's the Fox, Zorro, saving the people. The sort of, even for me being an English history fan, there was an early iteration, The Scarlet Pimpernel, in which there's been a lot of movies made on that in which you had an English noble dressed up as all sorts of disguises in the French Revolution to come over from England to France, to help rescue poor aristocratic ... Well, poor in spirit aristocratic French Nobles that are going to be killed.
Warwick Fairfax:
Now, obviously, how good were they? I don't know, but in the English telling of it, they're poor, persecuted aristocrats that need to be saved. So this sense of double life, there's a long history in that. Zorro is obviously very familiar with folks. So, there's something about that that enables Batman to do what he couldn't do as Bruce Wayne. Maybe he's a Playboy and a bit of philanthropist, but if Bruce Wayne went around saying, I'm here to help you. It's like, I'm sorry, Bruce who? You? It just kind of wouldn't fly. He needed a persona to, in a sense, fully be the person he needed to be to help people, to save people.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And the other thing that I hadn't really thought in depth about until I watched Batman '89 with Michael Keaton to prep for this show is there's another aspect to Bruce Wayne/Batman's life of significance. And that's this, he's ... As we said, his dad was an industrialist, had a lot of money. He lives in this big mansion where he, in the movie, Batman '89, he says at one point, "I don't think I've ever been in this room," right? He has all these rooms in the house he doesn't know anything about. He's sort of disconnected from some of that part of his life, but that's part of his commitment to serving others, right? As we say, a life of significance, a life lived on purpose dedicated to serving others. He's got all this money, depending on what time you're plugging into. In the sixties, he was a millionaire. Now, he's a billionaire, but he does not use that money for his own advancement.
Gary Schneeberger:
He uses that money to build Batmobiles, to build the Batwing, the Batplane, Batboat, his Batarangs and his grappling guns. He uses the money to build crime fighting tools. There's a funny throwaway scene in the movie, Justice League, that goes back to Ben Affleck's Batman in 2017, and The Flash, who's one of the other heroes on the Justice League, asks Bruce Wayne, who's not in costume, he's just Bruce Wayne at the time, he says, "What's your superpower again?" And Bruce Wayne says, very, very humorously, but very, very poignantly, I think, too, he says, "I'm rich." His superpower is that he's rich. And that's part of what his superpower is because of the way he uses that wealth, to build up crime fighting tools that again, scare, put fear into the hearts of those who would put fear into the hearts of the populace, but also to help him win the battles that he wins against, we'll see in a minute here, he wins against people who are much more super-powered than he is.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. I mean, that's very true. I mean, obviously, growing up in a wealthy family, I relate to this, but he doesn't want to be defined by his money. He doesn't want to think, oh, just because I have money, I'm better than other people. He more sees the money he has as a way of helping other people. But certainly, in the '89 movie and probably others, he doesn't feel completely comfortable when Vicki Vale, who's his love interest in the '89 movie, asks him, is this really you? This whole Wayne Manor? He says, well, yeah, in a sense. But in a sense, it's not. They have dinner at this big long table where you've got to yell to hear the person at the other end of the table, which in reality, people really don't eat like that, even wealthy folks, but it makes for a humorous movie, and she says, are you comfortable like this? He says, actually no. So, they go eat with Alfred in the kitchen at just a smaller table.
Warwick Fairfax:
So, in one sense, he's not really that comfortable with this whole money image persona, but he uses what he has to help others. He does not let the wealth define him. He uses money in a way that helps to help define what he believes he wants to put his life to, which is helping people and saving people.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I mean, he absolutely leverages that to further his life of significance. It's a piece that allows him to get there. One of the most fascinating things I've always found about Batman is that he's unique among superheroes in that he has no superpowers, right? Gamma radiation did not make him strong like it did the Hulk. A radioactive spider did not bite him and give him the power to climb up walls with just his fingertips. He's not an alien from another planet who can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes like Superman. He is, in many ways, an average everyday man, aside from the money. He has to work for, he has to cultivate his advantages over the villains he encounters. And as we think about this in the context of crucible leadership, you say it all the time, Warwick, you have to learn the lessons from your crucible and apply them.
Gary Schneeberger:
You have to grow, you have to move forward, take one small step, right? Batman didn't just go from his parents being killed to running in and fighting bad guys. In Batman Begins with Christian Bale, he gets trained in martial arts. He learns. He has to train his body and then train his mind to become a good detective, his body to become a good fighter, his mind to become a good detective. He has to create himself in a sense. And in that way, I think he's one of the most identifiable superheroes for us because none of us are going to be Superman, but any of us could be Batman. Seems fair, doesn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It's such a good point, Gary. I mean, even Captain America that was a regular guy, but he received serum and grows a few inches and a lot of muscles and pounds, but in a sense, Batman is a self-made man. He makes him physically, you see in various iterations him working out and just honing his body, but just mentally, in terms of his character, he hones those aspects so that he's committed to fighting for people and saving people. And he uses technology in a way that will do it. So, it's all part of the plan: body, mind, spirit, character.
Warwick Fairfax:
And so in that sense, you're right to a degree. I mean, absent of money, not everybody has millions of dollars, so that's a bit different, but other than that, anybody can become fitter, physically fitter and certainly more mentally, spiritually agile, strength of character. I mean, really, so often the superpowers that we see in some of these characters, certainly Captain America, his superpower wasn't such his strength, it was his character, and I think that's true of Batman is that strength of character, the ability to turn dire circumstances into something that helps people, that's really a sense of strength of character that I think we can all aspire to and have the opportunity to emulate.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, he's a hero because of the choices he makes. He chooses to overcome, to work through. Even though he is, as is made clear in Batman 1989 with the Joker played by Jack Nicholson, that they have a lot of similar things in their personalities. Both of them have been met with dark forces. Batman chooses to follow light, not darkness though. He's damaged, as you pointed out in a lot of these movies and certainly in this one. He has suffered damage, but he doesn't live there. He doesn't allow himself to wallow there, right? We talk about that all the time. We talk about crucibles, not so that we can commiserate, but so that we can elevate.
Gary Schneeberger:
He is a character who elevates whereas the Joker is a character who denigrates, who devolves, and he embraces the darkness that he comes in contact with. Batman doesn't do that. He makes the choice not to do that.
Warwick Fairfax:
I think that's worth just for listeners to pause and consider what Gary's just been talking about. Because at its extreme, we all have a choice. And this is making a point by stating the extreme. We have a choice. Do we want to be Batman or the Joker? That might seem like, oh, well, what are you talking about? Well, there is this phrase, hurt people hurt people, and so left to its own devices, if you've been damaged, I mean, some people have faced physical crucibles, abuse, lost loved ones at an early age, lost businesses. There're all sorts of traumas that people go through.
Warwick Fairfax:
One path is to be bitter and angry, at yourself, at others, and just be filled with so much anger that, you know what, I've been hurt so much. The world is corrupt. It's evil and you know what? I'm not going to play. I'm not going to be a pawn anymore. I'm going to go out there and just look out for number one and hey, I was hurt, so I'm going to hurt others. Who cares? What's the point of it all? There's no hope. There's no God. There's no good. Let's just do whatever it takes to win. If that means hurting people, hey, I was hurt. That's just life. Let's go.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's almost a Joker kind of mentality. We don't know his full backstory in terms of why he grew up the way he did, but probably had his own traumas, but he's so hurt and damaged, he just wants to kill and hurt as many people as possible. So he chose the path of darkness. Again, you look at like the force in Star Wars and Darth Vader, you can choose the dark side or you can choose the light in the case of Star Wars, the force. So, Batman also was pretty screwed up with what he saw with his parents being killed. He could have gone down that Joker route and used his money to hurt people. That was an option, but he chose a redemptive act, to use his pain to help people.
Warwick Fairfax:
So at its extreme, we have a choice. And really, when you go through pain, it tends to be a binary choice. You either use your pain for a purpose to help others, or your pain will tend to devour you and destroy you. And frankly, if you are destroyed and full of pain, there's a very good chance whether you want to or not, you will start hurting other people. You may not want to, but as I said, why is it so true that people who were abused as kids typically abuse their kids? That's the norm. I can't fathom how that could be possible, but psychologists will tell you that's the norm or very common. So don't fool yourself into thinking, oh, I could never be the Joker. Well, at its extreme, if you don't learn the lessons of your crucible and use your pain to help others, there's another choice, the dark side, that will tend to consume you and probably others. So, it's more real than I think we realize.
Gary Schneeberger:
I'm going to jump ahead in our notes a little bit, just because what you just said is a great place to make this point. And that is Batman, especially in this 1989 movie, is not a vigilante. In more recent iterations of the character, there is a vigilantism about him, and people think of him in those terms. But in this movie, key scene when the Joker becomes the Joker. He is Jack Napier, just kind of a mob enforcer. He's in this chemical plant. He's been sold out by his boss because he's sleeping with his boss' girlfriend. Batman shows up and he's fighting with Jack Napier, and they're over a vat of chemicals. Batman's got him by the wrist as he's hanging over the vat of chemicals. And he falls into the vat of chemicals, Jack Napier does, and he becomes the Joker.
Gary Schneeberger:
I watched the movie again, and I was like, did he drop him on purpose or did it slip? And I actually went to the script, the actual final script of the movie, to get my answer because that's important. If he drops him, he's made a darker choice. He's more like the Joker than he probably wants to be, but he doesn't drop him on purpose. According to the script, it describes the action as this: Batman reaches, gets a poor grip. He stares, perplexed, at the stricken expression in Jack Napier's eyes. Jack's sliding out of Batman's grip. Jack looks up at him in terror and slips away.
Gary Schneeberger:
They did a novelization of that movie, of this movie, Batman, in 1989, and it says that's based on the fourth draft of the script. And this is what it says in that novelization: Jack lost the pipe, but the Batman held him. His grip wasn't firm. Jack could feel the Bat's cloth covered fingers slipping away. That's important to point out on the heels of what you said about he had to make a choice, and he has to make a choice pretty much every day, like all of us do when it comes to coming back from a crucible. It's not a one and done, as you've said, scores of times. Batman has to make a choice every day. Is he going to be for light or is he going to be for darkness? Because every day finds him in a position where he has the capabilities because of the way he's trained his body and because of the weapons that his money allows him to buy, he has the ability to end life like that. But that's not the way he operates in the most, for me, resonant iterations of the character.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's such a good point, Gary. I mean, basically, the point is you don't fight evil by becoming evil. And Batman makes that choice. It's like, look, I don't know that he realizes at that point who the Joker is, Jack Napier, in the sense of, well, who Jack Napier was before in the sense of the one who killed his parents. But the point is, he knew he was a bad guy, a mobster. He could have said like, one less mobster, let the guy die.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
But yet, he didn't. He was never about killing even bad guys. He was about protecting and saving people. His focus was on saving lives, saving humans, not so much on killing bad guys. In fact, Batman doesn't have guns. He has grappling hooks. He has tools. He doesn't run around killing people. I mean, that's sort of an interesting superhero, but yeah, he's all about protecting people. He's all about trying to live his values. He is not going to become the Joker in order to defeat the Joker. That's a choice he makes time and time again.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. And in fact, in the movie, Batman v Superman, Ben Affleck and Henry Cavill as Superman, the reason that they're versus each other is that Batman is so upset that in an earlier battle, Superman, in fighting a villain, Zod, they just destroyed huge parts of Metropolis in their fight, and Batman was angry with Superman because he saw this unchecked power, not caring about the safety of the populace. He didn't value life from Batman's perspective. And that's why they're at odds with each other in that movie. Another beat, Warwick, that's interesting about Batman is that he didn't just train his body. Yeah, he's good with his feet and his fists, but he's also good with his mind.
Gary Schneeberger:
Key scene in the 1989 Batman movie is the Joker has, because he had a chemistry background, he was good at chemistry in high school his file indicates and he has rigged up these colognes and makeup and hairspray to when you use them all together, it's poison and it kills people and it leaves them with big smiles on their faces like he is left with, this immovable rictus on his face because he fell into the vat of chemicals. He creates this and Batman doesn't defeat it through might, at least not might of his body. He defeats it through the might of his mind. He has, in addition to training his body, he's trained his mind to become a true detective.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that's one of the things that makes Batman stand out is that in this movie is a great example of it, he finds a way to examine the chemicals that are at play, what's killed these people, and he brings a detective's moxie and insight into letting the people of Gotham know, don't use this in concert with this and this product in concert with that, and he saves the day, not through his power of his fists, of his feet, of his fancy weapons, but through the power of his mind that he's developed. Again, one of those things that the character of Batman constantly getting better, constantly training both mind and body to meet the challenges, to keep peace in Gotham City.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. He uses his mind and analytical ability to figure out, okay, you can't use hairspray with shampoo or lipstick or whatever the combination of cosmetics are. And I think the wider point is often our greatest superpower is our mind, is how we think about things. Are we going to look at what happened to us as a life determining defeat? Are we going to look at it as something that provides an opportunity to help people channel what we've been through in a positive sense? So really, guarding our mind and how we think, making sure that it's focused on positive items of gratitude rather than negative items of retribution, grievance and anger, guiding our minds, our hearts, how we think is often the battle for our lives and which way it turns out is typically a battle within. It's our mind, our heart, our character, but it really starts with how we think, how we think determines the course of our lives.
Warwick Fairfax:
Batman was constantly using his mind, his thoughts, in a positive way, channeled in a positive direction. The Joker, he used his intellect to "how can I think of creative ways to kill people and terrorize them?"
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
As we see in the end of the movie with these big balloons full of poisonous gas. I mean, yeah, he had some creativity and intelligence, the Joker did, but he used it to kill people.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
So how we use our mind and how we train it is critical.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's a great pivot point for us to talk about something else that is in the story of Batman that's critical to what we talk about here at Beyond the Crucible, and that is Batman can be easily painted as a loner, right? He takes on crucibles and crime all by himself. He lost his parents as a boy, but in very real ways, he was not orphaned. And all the movies do a pretty good job of showing this because it's through the butler that you talked about earlier, Alfred the butler, that Batman has not just a compatriot who's behind him, who knows his identity and assists him, and in some of the more recent movies, Alfred's a bit of like an ex-British commando who's got a lot of military insights and ability. In this movie, Batman '89, and certainly in the TV show, he was just a kindly butler who offered love and encouragement to Bruce Wayne, who becomes a surrogate father to him when his parents are murdered.
Gary Schneeberger:
There's a scene in Batman '89 when Vicki Vale, who you mentioned was Batman's love interest, Bruce Wayne's love interest, comes over for dinner and they're sitting around, Bruce Wayne, Alfred and Vicki Vale, and they're talking and Alfred leaves to go do something for Bruce or to go to bed, and Vicki just looks at Bruce and says, "he really loves you a lot". And that is a spotlight on a truth, isn't it, Warwick, about crucible leadership that don't go it alone, surround yourself with those who believe in you, who can help pick you up when tough times come and show you the way forward. That's who Alfred is for Bruce Wayne/Batman, isn't he?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, being orphaned like that, it can really screw you up, I'm sure. But Alfred does become this father figure, this figure that yes, he serves him in a sense, but he loves Bruce Wayne and wants to protect him. He always has his best interest at heart. He encourages Bruce to tell Vicki Vale who he is, to take the risk, and as we see in the movie, eventually he can't quite get it done. He gets interrupted at different times, once by the Joker, but eventually, Alfred brings Vicki Vale into the Batcave. I don't think he asks Bruce Wayne. He just does it.
Gary Schneeberger:
No.
Warwick Fairfax:
And it's like, you know what? I'm going to take matters into my own hands here. Vicki Vale is a nice woman, nice girl and there's something there. And so, Alfred always has Bruce Wayne/Batman's best interest at heart, and by the end of the movie, not only does Bruce Wayne have Alfred, he has Vicki Vale that knows who he is and believes in him. Having people that know us warts and all, in this case, he, Bruce, has two people that know everything about him, things that many people don't, but that know who you are, know in this sense that he's a tortured soul, Bruce Wayne, but yet love him and believe in him anyway, having unconditional love from friends and family is absolutely critical to us being able to get beyond our crucible, and in fact, being able to turn it into a positive life to help others. So, it begs the question, could Bruce Wayne have become Batman without Alfred? I think not, it's hard to really conceive of that happening. So, it's critical to have people that believe in you in your life.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. I mean, that is a ... And again, that's a story that we hear all the time on the show, people who have, and you talk about it in your book, have a team of fellow travelers, have some people who understand who you are, ask people what your gifts and talents are, so that you can get an idea of what that next act is going to look like as you move beyond your crucible. It's critical. And so often, Batman's sort of pegged as this lone figure, but even in the current movies, Batman's the one in Justice League who convenes the team. Batman sees that he can't do it all by himself if he's going to stamp out the evil that's going on. He needs other people with different gifts and talents than he has to take the battle to the bad guy. And that's not loner behavior on his part at all.
Gary Schneeberger:
He's the guy, he's the agent who's bringing all of those folks together. You mentioned this idea of people who know you, people who can identify with you, and I'm going to jump ahead just a little bit again, I mentioned earlier that my love of Batman began when I was a kid, and it was from the TV show. And one of the things I loved about that TV show was the campy, sort of silly flirtations that Batman had with Catwoman, played by Julie Newmar. The relationship that they had was cute and it was playful and it was fun, even for me as a kid who still thought girls had germs when I was like eight or nine or however old I was, but in The Dark Knight Rises, which is the third of the Christian Bale movies, that movie ends in a place that figures Alfred into the equation, as well as this idea of being known by someone.
Gary Schneeberger:
Batman and Catwoman know each other because they are also similar in some ways, some bad times in life, some broken ... Catwoman is a villain, but she's kind of got a good heart most of the time, and she's more of an anti-hero kind of villain in some ways, and there's attraction between them, but they know each other because they're both similar in the sense that they have secret identities. They have these things that they do to kind of beat back the demons that they had growing up. And there's a really sweet scene at the end of The Dark Knight Rises that made my little boy's heart leap with joy because Bruce Wayne/Batman disappears as that movie ends. Alfred, who's played in the Christian Bale movies by Michael Kane, an excellent actor, he goes to this cafe, I think it's in Paris. He looks at a table out in front, and there's Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle/Catwoman having a laugh and having a meal. And they put the camera on Alfred, and he smiles because he sees here's his surrogate son, here's the boy he raised happy.
Gary Schneeberger:
Talk about a life of significance. He's given, he's given, he's given, he's given. He's always been about what he could give, not what he could receive, and he has received, now, love because he's let someone in who understands him, knows who he is, both in the literal sense as he's Batman and Bruce Wayne, but also knows who he is in his heart. And that is that life of significance that pleases the people around us when they see us happy.
Gary Schneeberger:
Alfred's smile says everything about how much he loves Bruce Wayne and how much that story arc has sort of ended in a place where he's left ... He can leave what we talk about all the time, a grand legacy. Who knows what happens to them after that, Batman and Catwoman, Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle? Do they get married? Do they have kids? Do they go on to continue to make the world a better place? It's a beautiful ending, but it speaks to that idea of those who know you, those who love you will come alongside you, and that becomes part of your life of significance to pair up with them if that is the way that it's been laid out for you.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah. It's such a good point, Gary. In the 1989 Batman movie with Bruce Wayne, getting together with Vicki Vale, and then in the Christian Bale version of the Batman trilogy, getting linked up with Selina Kyle as Catwoman, one of the challenges when you've been broken and damaged as Bruce Wayne/Batman was, is feeling that you are worthy of loving. Sometimes we can feel that we're so broken that almost like we feel that we're like a leper in biblical times, unclean, stay away. Anybody that gets near me will be damaged. I'm not worth it. I'm not worth loving. And so part of healing and getting beyond your crucible is being able to receive love, because it can be this notion, if you really knew me, if you really knew what I've done, who I am, you would hate me. You would run. You couldn't love me.
Warwick Fairfax:
Sadly, there's many people out there that think that, but in both iterations, whether it's Batman, whether it's the Michael Keaton or the Christian Bale version, not easily, but he lets people in. Alfred, but then, a love interest, be it Vicki Vale, or in this case, Selina Kyle as Catwoman. So, I think for all of us, we've got to believe that we are worth loving. Yes, we have faults and flaws, but there are going to be people out there that will accept us and love us because of who we are, and frankly, as we're able to move beyond our crucibles and help others, that, in a sense, helps. You're not very attractive if you're just a narcissist that's griping and complaining and wants to damage people. Forgetting ethics and morality, that's not attractive.
Warwick Fairfax:
Somebody that knows who they are and are just trying to use their pain to help others, people are more going to want to be with somebody like that. And so it's no wonder that Vicky Vale and Selina Kyle as Catwoman see the good in Bruce Wayne and Batman and want to be with him. That's an important lesson. We are worth loving and we want to be the kind of person in terms of what we do with our lives that people will want to love, if you will. It's about that.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, yeah. That's an excellent point. And oh, I see the Bat-Signal up in the sky, which indicates it's almost time for us to have to run out and save Gotham City. But before we do, let's make one last point, I think, which is a good place to kind of land the plane as I normally say, when I'm not talking about superheroes, when it's about time to end the show and that's this idea that there's a key part in Batman, the 1989 version, and key to Batman in that movie is that he just doesn't give up, right? He just does not give up, even though it's hard. When Vicki Vale asks him late in the movie, why he keeps putting his life on the line for a city that doesn't always deserve it and rarely appreciates it in some cases, he says, very simply, it's what I have to do because nobody else can.
Gary Schneeberger:
This is a man, Batman is an example we can follow of accepting responsibility for the calling we've been given, moving in that calling that we've been given and doing it even when it's hard, right? Warwick, you talk all the time about when crucibles happen, you can lie in bed and pull your head under the covers and just hope it goes away or you can get up and you can take one small step forward. Batman truly is a good example, a great example, as hard as it is, of continuing to put one foot in front of the other and taking small steps, because it's what I have to do. Nobody else can.
Gary Schneeberger:
Think about that, listener, in your own crucible experiences when you're looking at your calling. You are uniquely called to your calling. Nobody else can do it the way that you do it. Your calling is your calling for a reason. So, this idea that it's what I have to do, nobody else can do it, add onto the sentence, the way that I can do it, is true for Batman and it's true in a very, very real non-goofy superhero sense for all of us when it comes to our calling. No one's going to do that. If we feel called to something, no one's going to be able to do that exactly like we are. And that's why we have to find the fortitude to keep moving forward, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, that's such a good point. Calling is a great word. What is our calling? It will often come out of the pain, the suffering, even the darkness that we face, but that sense of calling, which we define as a life of significance, a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, when you truly believe, I mean, Bruce Wayne feels like there's nobody else that can do what I can do. He's there to help people, save people. When you feel like I have the unique ability in my own area, neighborhood, in my own way to help people, that sense of calling tends to enhance your sense of perseverance. This is not about me. I need to keep going. There are people depending on me. It could be my family. It could be friends, people at work, people that we want to help with, organizations we volunteer with, the sense of it's more than just me, it's not about me, it helps you give a sense of perseverance to prevail.
Warwick Fairfax:
I know we're sort of summing up here. There's sort of maybe one other point I'd like maybe to leave listeners with is that, we've talked a lot in this episode about choice. Do you hide under the covers? Do you let the trauma that you went through or the mistakes you made define you, or are you going to seek to overcome them and using your pain for purpose to help others? And at its extreme, in which movies often give us the extreme version to help bring clarity, in Batman in the 1989 version and others, there is a choice. Do you want to be a redemptive figure like Batman that uses his pain to help others? Or do you want to be a narcissist devoted to inflicting pain on others like the Joker?
Warwick Fairfax:
And it sounds awfully extreme, redemption versus narcissism, or let's say redemption versus pain, hurt people, hurt others. If you're not set on a path of redemption to helping others, I don't see how you'll ... It'll be very difficult to avoid being on a path in which not only do you hurt yourself, but you'll hurt others. Redemption versus a path of self destruction to yourself and to others. It sounds awfully extreme, but I think there's some truth in that analogy. And so, it just sounds awfully comic book-like to say who would you rather be, Batman or the Joker, but it's more true than we would think, that binary choice. It's clearly an extreme version in this movie, but there is some truth behind that.
Gary Schneeberger:
And that, listener, is a perfect place for us to land the Batplane, to land the Batwing. We hope that you've enjoyed this discussion of Batman as it pertains to crucible leadership and moving beyond your crucible. I said it before, I say it all the time on the show that the experiences that we've been through, that you and I and Warwick have been through, not the same as what Bruce Wayne/Batman has been through, but the emotional feelings and the emotional needs moving forward are indeed the same.
Gary Schneeberger:
So, we hope you've enjoyed this episode of Lights, Camera, Crucibles. And next week, if you want to do your homework, I don't want to call it homework because then you won't want to do it, if you want to do the preparation work, next week, Warwick and I are going to unpack one of our favorite films and that's The Natural, in which Robert Redford plays arguably the greatest baseball player of all time. It's a wonderful kind of allegorical mythical story of what being great really is. Spoiler alert, it's not all about what's on the field.
Gary Schneeberger:
Until that next time that we're together, do remember this, listener, that we understand your crucibles are difficult. We understand they're tough. We understand that they can lead you to feel that you're in a dark place, but they are not the end of your story. If you learn the lesson of your crucible and you move beyond it by applying that lesson to the next step you take, and the next step you take, and the next step you take as you pursue your life of significance, your story's not over at all. It's just getting started because where it leads to, as I said, is the best destination you can ever imagine, and that is a life of significance.
Our eight-week summer series, LIGHTS, CAMERA, CRUCIBLES, kicks off this week. We examine some of the most popular film heroes — superheroes, sports heroes and action heroes — to extract key learnings and practical action steps to help you move beyond your crucibles to a life of significance. We begin with Captain America, whose “I can do this all day” attitude offers inspiration for staying strong and standing tall when setbacks and failures come. What makes Captain America, aka Steve Rogers, heroic is not the super soldier serum that transforms him from a 120-pound weakling rejected by the army several times during World War II into a muscular front-line fighter who beats the Nazis. What truly makes Steve Rogers Captain America is not something given to him, but something he had all along: character.
Highlights
The goal of the series — to be a “popcorn podcast” (2:31)
Why Warwick is excited about the series (4:54)
Psychology Today on how heroes improve our lives (6:59)
Introducing Captain America (22:11)
Steve Rogers’ crucible (23:54)
The root of Captain America’s heroism (27:27)
How Steve Rogers’ physical weakness makes him compassionate (30:02)
Captain America’s first crucible after receiving the super-soldier serum (35:40)
The pain of being rejected by soldiers (38:18)
Captain America’s first taste of battle (42:33)
The hero’s selfless choice (50:06)
The unique nature of Captain America’s hero journey (55:17)
The legacy of Captain America (59:47)
Points to reflect on (1:12:15)
Transcript
Warwick Fairfax:
Welcome to Beyond the Crucible. I'm Warwick Fairfax, the founder of Crucible Leadership.
Abraham Erskine:
The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great; bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen, because a strong man, who has known power all his life may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength and knows compassion.
Steve Rogers:
Thanks, I think.
Abraham Erskine:
Whatever happens tomorrow, you must promise me one thing, that you will stay who you are, not a perfect soldier, but a good man.
Gary Schneeberger:
When you boil it all down, that's a succinct, extremely accurate description of what a hero is, a good man or a good woman. Hi, I'm Gary Schneeberger, cohost of the show. That clip you just heard is from the movie Captain America: The First Avenger.
Our focus today, as we launch our new summer series, Lights, Camera, Crucibles: What Our Favorite Movie Heroes Can Teach Us about Overcoming Setbacks and Failure. We chose Captain America, not only because we're debuting this series on the day after Independence Day in the U.S., but also because of the lessons the shield-wielding hero and his alter-ego, Steve Rogers, reveal about moving beyond crucibles with an attitude of, "I can do this all day." What makes Steve Rogers heroic is not the super soldier serum that transforms him from a 120-pound weakling rejected by the Army several times during World War II, into a muscular frontline fighter who beats the Nazis. What truly makes Steve Rogers Captain America is not something he was given, but something he had all along, character.
Our goal here in doing this is to make this a fun and insightful time. Each of these eight episodes that we have planned... You've heard of the phrase popcorn movies, summer movies that are big, blockbuster excitements. We're hoping this becomes a popcorn podcast, that it offers excitement, inspiration, hope, healing, and some practical actions steps for you while we all have a little bit of fun.
The series is all about... You may have gotten the idea when I said, "Lights, Camera, Crucibles," that in fact it's about movies. It is, but specifically, it's about movie heroes, a mix of superheroes, sports heroes, action heroes, when they all have one common denominator. That's this. Their stories just don't entertain us; they enlighten us.
One of the things we say the show always aims to do, in the intro, especially on the YouTube version that you can run over and see, we always talk about how we want to enlighten people. We don't want to commiserate; we want to elevate. That's the goal of this series. Entertain, yes, but elevate, for sure.
The films that we've chosen, and we're going to keep them secret week to week, we'll tell you... You kind of have a hint of what the first one's going to be, because you heard the clip at the start of the show, but these are all films that Warwick and I love, and millions of movie goers besides us love. Sometimes, for generations they have loved these characters.
It's not because, or at least not just because I am a superhero geek, a bit of a fanboy. It's not because Warwick loves history and loves heroes and has since he was a boy, but it's because these movies all surround themes that we discuss every week on Beyond the Crucible. Some of those themes are overcoming your worst day; learning and applying the lessons of your crucibles; shifting your perspective to understand that these setbacks and failures didn't happen to you but happened for you; the importance of faith and authenticity and living a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others; and sometimes having a secret identity and wearing a cool costume. Okay, I made that one up. That's not something that we have always talked about on Beyond the Crucible, but we may talk a little bit about it today. Stay tuned. We have some surprises.
Like any good summer activity, we hope this does two things: one, that we have fun, that you have fun; and two, we get to spend some meaningful time together. That's our goal here. Have fun. Spend some meaningful time together. We think that we'll do just that. Warwick, what are your feelings? I've been blabbing here. What are your feelings about starting this Lights, Camera, Crucible series about movie heroes?
Warwick Fairfax:
Well, I think both of us... I love heroic movies, be it superhero movies, historical movies, books, figures. I mean, I grew up with my dad telling me about some of the heroic figures in history, whether... Obviously, in America, we think of Washington and Lincoln. Because my dad was an anglophile, I grew up hearing stories about Admiral Nelson of Battle of Trafalgar fame, and the Napoleonic Wars, and the Duke of Wellington at Waterloo.
I think what attracts me to heroic figures is they're typically up against odds. They're tested both physically, strategically, but they're tested in their character and they always come through. That's the essence of being a hero. You are tested and you come through, and your character, if anything, is refined or sharpened at times, but they're people that we can learn from. When we suffer challenges and crucibles, how can we emerge better, stronger, especially in our character? How can we be focused on others, rather than just ourselves? There are so many teachable moments in these larger than life figures, that we love talking about them not so much because, oh, who of us will ever be Captain America? It's more we love the story, and we like to think that we could see ourselves in the movie, or we like to think, on our better days, we too could be selfless and heroic, even in small ways, so it inspires us to be better than maybe we thought we could be. That's why I think we all love heroic figures in movies.
Gary Schneeberger:
To level set beyond just what the excellent points that Warwick made, but it's not just us. We're not just the only two people who think this is a worthwhile subject to talk about, how you can apply some of the lessons of hero movies to your life. Psychology Today did an article a couple years back that it called Five Surprising Ways That Heroes Improve Our Lives. We're going to go through those five ways here, just so you get an idea of why it is we're spending, we're committing so much time and effort and energy to this series and this subject.
Here's the first reason that Psychology Today says heroes improve our lives. Number one: Heroes produce a recently identified emotion called elevation. This one fascinated me. That's why they made it number one, I'm sure. Recent research suggests that heroes and heroic action may evoke a unique emotional response, which a professor at NYU has called elevation.
He borrowed the term elevation from Thomas Jefferson, who used the phrase moral elevation to describe the euphoric feeling one gets when reading great literature. The article goes on to say, "Elevation is described as similar to calmness, warmth, and love." The professor at NYU argues that elevation is "elicited by acts of virtue or moral beauty. It causes warm, open feelings in the chest." Seems like a lot of the beats that we talk about in crucible leadership, especially when it comes to the benefits of living a life of significance and the benefits that that has on other people, doesn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Think of when you're in high school, or maybe you've had kids in high school. One of the things you always say is, "You are judged by who you surround yourself with," so surround yourself with people that will elevate you, people that will respect you, value you, people that you can really help yourself.
The people you're around can elevate you. On the other hand, if you're around the wrong crowd, it can lead to terrible things. In some cases, sadly, in high school or beyond, it can lead to drugs, substance abuse, gangs, terrible things.
One of the great things about heroic movies is you're surrounding yourself with folks that elevate you. Some people talk about appealing to your better angels. We're all a mix of good qualities and not so good. All of us are imperfect, but by watching heroic movies, it can indeed elevate you. It can appeal to your better angels. It can appeal to your better instincts. It does what we all want to have happen with ourselves and our kids. We all want to be our best selves. I honestly believe that heroic movies play a role, if not a significant role, in our culture, in the ability to help us all be the best selves that we can be.
Gary Schneeberger:
That leads very nicely, Warwick, to the second point in this Psychology Today article, and that is that heroes heal our psychic wounds. It says, "Tens of thousands of years ago, when humans first tamed fire, tribe members huddled around a communal fire at the end of each day for warmth and protection, but the act of gathering around the fire encouraged another activity, storytelling. These first stories were, no doubt, tales of heroes and heroic action, and these tales were a salve for people's psychological wounds. Hero stories calmed people's fears, buoyed their spirits, nourished their hopes, and fostered important values of strength and resilience. Life now had greater purpose and meaning. There is no doubt that humans today are no different from our earthly ancestors. We are drawn to good hero stories, because they comfort us and heal us." Another fair point, with what we're about to talk about, what we've all experienced in watching these films.
Warwick Fairfax:
That is so profoundly true, Gary. I mean, human beings, for thousands of years, ever since we were humans, have, as you said, gathered around the campfire and told stories of heroic deeds. Every culture that I know of has these stories.
I know, for me, as I've mentioned before, I think, on other podcast episodes and in my book, Crucible Leadership, my dad read me heroic stories of the Greek heroes from a book from, I don't know, somewhere in the 1800s by Charles Kingsley, called The Heroes. You'd hear stories of Perseus; Jason and the Argonauts; and stories of the Trojan Wars, which there have been a few recent movies on that; and stories of Odysseus taking 10 years to come home to his beloved wife, Penelope. The gods were sort of angry at him for a variety of reasons, but he wouldn't let it stop him. Nothing would stop him from coming home to his kingdom, to his people, and to his wife. The Greeks, thousands of years ago, would sit around campfires or wherever they were gathered and tell stories of these incredible heroes in their culture.
It's just, it's part of being human is to tell stories of heroes in our culture. It reinforces our culture, our values, and again, helps us be our best selves. Telling stories is an intrinsic part of being human.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yep, and the podcast is today's answer to the campfire, in many, many ways, in terms of the stories that are being told around it. Here's the third point in Psychology Today's article: Heroes nourish our connections with other people. "The content of hero stories," they write, "also promotes a strong sense of social identity. If the hero is an effective one, he or she performs actions that exemplify and affirm the community's most valued models, who perform behaviors that reinforce our most treasured values and connections with others." We're really going to get into that, not just in today's episode, which is about Captain America. It's not a spoiler alert; you heard it in the clip, but about all the heroes that we talk about. They really do reinforce our most treasured values and connections with others.
One of the things that draws me to these kinds of movies is that I see in the characters I love and I appreciate the higher aspirations that I have for myself. I think that's a fair point to make about why these films are so popular. Yeah, the special effects are great. Yeah, the dialogue's snappy. The action's good, but at the end of the day, it's the character of the heroes and the values of the heroes, I think, on which these movies rise and fall.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we like to see ourselves as a Steve Rogers, who overcame his crucibles and was selfless. We like to identify with these heroes. We like to think, in some small way, maybe there's a part of Steve Rogers that could be us. Back to the Psychology Today article, it absolutely elevates us and inspires us. That's the value of stories.
I mean, one of the things you hear in adult learning a lot is, if you hear a speech, you might forget the points, but you remember the stories. Or in the Bible, with Jesus, His main points were all told through stories. Storytelling is a very valuable way to teach lessons to ourselves, to our kids, to our loved ones, our team members. It's a valuable way of teaching. It's inspiring. One of the best ways to really try to get better, as a human, is just identify with some of these figures, not so much to be literal superheroes, but just more of the character and how we deal with adversity. I think it's incredibly helpful to our souls and in our lives.
Gary Schneeberger:
That's an important point to make in a podcast called Beyond the Crucible. That comes from a life practice called Crucible Leadership, that it is to overcome. Part of the journey, part of the story, is overcoming those difficult moments, and getting up. Again, as we get into Captain America here in a bit, we'll see a lot of those beats in the Captain America story.
In fact, there's the fourth point in Psychology Today's article, and that is: Heroes show us how to transform our lives. "A comparative mythologist, named Joseph Campbell..." I never knew there were comparative mythologists. I wonder if there are other kinds of mythologists, but he's a comparative mythologist. "He said, in 1988, that all of us undergo a hero-like journey throughout our ordinary human lifespans." You sort of alluded to that when you were talking just a little while ago.
"'During our lives,' he wrote, 'we undergo a truly heroic transformation of consciousness. Only when we heroically risk change and growth in our own lives will we reach our full potential.' As spiritual teacher, Richard Rohr notes, 'Hero stories inspire us all because they call us all.'" Love that.
"Hero stories inspire us all because they call us all." I mean it's not... It's really impossible to watch a hero story, be it superhero, action hero, sports hero, real-life documentary hero somewhere, it's really hard to watch a film like that and not feel inspired and called to the same level of excellence, the same level of soul, of character, that these mythical sometimes, real sometimes, heroes display, isn't it? It's almost an impossibility not to be not just elevated, but to be drawn into following that path.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, as you're talking about heroic figures, I think of Luke Skywalker in the first Star Wars film in, what is it, 1977, or somewhere there abouts? I'd say, more screenplay analyses and heroic analyses have been done on that movie than any other. It's a template of how to give a speech, how to write a screenplay, without getting into it all. Luke Skywalker starting as a simple young boy, young man, in this far off planet. His family gets killed, and he ends up part of the Rebel Alliance, becoming a heroic figure.
Well, he had to go through crucibles and journey and growth. That would be a whole other discussion, but yeah, I think heroic figures typically go through an arc of learning, of dealing with crucibles, overcoming them. In a sense, these heroic movies that we're going to be talking about are almost an archetype of what does it mean to be a crucible leader? We talk on the podcast and in the book all the time about learning the lessons of your crucible, living in light of your design, finding a vision that maybe came out of the ashes of your crucible, focus on others, living a life of significance. That's what the figures in these movies do. They live the crucible arc, the refining cycle, as we call it. It's a great way of learning how to not let your worst day define you, and how to move on to a more fulfilling life.
Gary Schneeberger:
Here, listener, is proof that this idea is breathed outside of me and Warwick, because I have not shared with him what I'm reading out of Psychology Today, and he just led perfectly, he just set the plate perfectly for the fifth point in the article. That is: Heroes turn us in to heroes ourselves.
"Good heroes," they write, "use the power of transformation, not only to change themselves for the better, but also to transform the world. In the classic hero journey, the newly transformed hero eventually transforms society in significant and positive ways. Psychologist Erik Erikson's Stages of Human Development suggests a similar hero trajectory for all of us. Adults grow in significant ways, and then in midlife reach a stage of generativity, which Erikson defines as the time when people give back to the society that has given them so much."
We haven't written it that way, as that's what a life of significance is, but that's what they're describing there, right? They're describing a life of significance. It makes you feel significant, and it passes value onto the culture.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I think there was a generation of historians that talked about the great man theory of history. Obviously, we would say the great person, the great man, the great woman theory of history. That was the idea that individuals can transform society. That's maybe not as fashionable today, because we live in a more cynical age and, yes, our heroes typically are not perfect. They have their flaws, but as we've discussed before, in fact just on the last podcast, we talked about Winston Churchill and his whole never give up. He was one man-
Gary Schneeberger:
Your never is actually never, never, never, never...
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly right.
Gary Schneeberger:
I memorized it for the show.
Warwick Fairfax:
Exactly right. Here he was in May 1940, new prime minister of Britain, when it felt like Britain against Nazi Germany, against the world at the time. America would come into the war later, in late 1941, but Britain could be forgiven if they were obviously fearful, feeling like, gosh, we're one little island. How will we protect ourselves against the might of Nazi Germany, but in one sense, through the power of his example and the power of his rhetoric, Winston Churchill, with this idea of we will never give up. We will fight them on the beaches, in the villages, in the towns. No matter how long it takes, we and our commonwealth, which includes Australia and Canada, we will fight on.
One man, one woman can make a massive difference. Now, we're not all going to be Winston Churchills, but even if it means in our town, in our village, in our neighborhood, in our company, in our division, wherever it is, and in our families, we can have a massive impact, far more than we would think. Never underestimate the ability to live a heroic lifestyle. It's a bit of a stretch, maybe, for most of us, but let's understand it as a heroic life in terms of character and service, in modeling what we believe. That kind of heroic life is attainable by all of us. It's just a matter of living what we believe. It has a massive impact, far more than we would realize.
Gary Schneeberger:
And it's a great bridge to the first hero that we're going to talk about, because that's one of the characteristics, one of the things that makes Captain America a hero. As we teased at the top of the show, our first hero that we're going to unpack is going to be Captain America. We're just about ready to launch into that. I think I'm ready to begin that discussion, Warwick. I think I'm ready to dive in. I think I'm ready to go. I've got the... There's the Captain America T-shirt. I've got the Captain America hat. I'm so excited, I forgot to put my glasses back on, but I guess that's... You know what? When you're talking about heroes, sometimes the alter-ego wears glasses, sometimes the hero doesn't. That's not Captain America's story, but that is the story of a few of them, and there's my Captain America shield, if you're... We're all ready to go. Talk about Captain America.
I can actually still read my notes without my glasses on, so I'm just going to let them go. I'm just going to let it go just like this. We're going to fly just like this and see what happens.
Where we're going to start, Warwick, is with the movie Captain America: The First Avenger, which is where the movie versions of Captain America all began. That was in phase one of what they call the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It was a story of a young man, Steve Rogers, in World War II. He really, really, really wanted to be a soldier. He wanted to fight.
The problem for Steve Rogers was that he was slight and he was sickly. His crucible, when we meet him, is that this kid from Brooklyn, who wants to get into World War II, can't join the Army, because they keep rejecting him. So intense is his desire to serve, in fact, that he travels to several recruiting stations in the preamble, the pre-story, the backstory, of Captain America: The First Avenger, hoping to find one recruitment center that's going to give him the chance, but the odds are high.
Here's how high the odds are. This is fascinating to me. I didn't realize this until I began doing some of the research for our conversation today, but in one scene in the movie, where he's in one of those recruitment centers, when his paperwork is stamped 4-F, which means he's rejected, the audience gets a fleeting glimpse on screen of his physical history, including his ailments. It's flashed too quickly by to really understand what it says in its entirety, but here's the fun part.
When Marvel wrapped up the first phase of its Cinematic Universe, it issued a boxed set of all the DVDs. In that boxed set, they had dossiers of all the characters who were in The Avengers. Included in that, right here you can see, there's their top secret, inactive, classified file, but in that, they take that very piece of paper that shows up in Captain America: The First Avenger, can't really see it there well, because of the sun, but here's the ailments that are listed on that sheet that flew by too quickly for movie goers to understand.
Here are the odds. Here's the crucible that Steve Rogers faces as he wants to go join the war effort and do his part for his country. Summary of patient health issues: asthma, scarlet fever, rheumatic fever, sinusitis, high blood pressure, palpitations or pounding in heart. I'm going to run out breath saying this. Easy fatigability, heart trouble, nervous trouble of any sort, has had household contact with a tuberculosis patient, and he has a parent/sibling with diabetes, cancer, stroke, or heart disease. He is also only 5'7" and 110 pounds. Makes it pretty clear why Steve Rogers is having trouble getting into the Army, doesn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
That guy's a mess. I mean, you know how it's like slight of stature. I mean, 110 pounds. I mean, wow. Rheumatic fever, tuberculosis. I mean, it's just... He is the antithesis of a heroic figure. That kid's not, I mean, you would think, poor kid. He's not going to be able to do anything. I mean, if there's a breath of wind, you'd think he'd fall over.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, he's just sickly. Can you imagine being in the heat of battle and having a nervous disposition? Do you want that guy to have your back? I mean, probably not. Maybe he'll suffer a heart attack or something. Yeah, he is the antithesis of what a hero would be, which makes his story even more remarkable, really.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yet, in the very next scene, in the very next scene, after he's been rejected several times, the first glimpse of what indeed makes him a hero comes up. He's in the movie theater. After one of his rejections, he goes to see a movie. At that time, at the movies, they ran newsreels beforehand, and because it was World War II, they were reporting back. Remember, there's no TV at this time that's hour by hour, no CNN telling you what's going on in the theater of war. You've got to watch these newsreels.
He wants to see what's going on, but there's some guys in front of him in the theater, who are mouthing off, and they're talking to the newsreel. Steve Rogers, slight, sickly Steve Rogers gets a little upset about that. He wants to hear what's going on. He wants to serve his country, and he wants to know what's going on in the theater of war.
What ends up happening, he gets into a fight with one of the bigger guys in front of him. Later, the guy goes outside and beats him up in an alley. He just pounds him. He keeps punching him, and Steve keeps falling down and getting knocked down. Eventually, the guy who's beating him up takes a little sympathy on him, and he says, "You just don't know when to quit, do you?" And Steve's response would end up coursing throughout all of the films in which Captain America appears. That's this first one, Captain America: The First Avenger. That's the second one, Captain America: The Winter Soldier. That's the third one, Captain America: The Civil War, as well as all four Avengers movies.
This is the attitude of Steve Rogers, of Captain America, as it plays out through those movies. Here's what he says to that bully, as that bully beats him up. "I could do this all day." He says it many more times, throughout those other movies, as I said.
Warwick, when I heard that, in screening this movie for this purpose, it occurs to me, that could be the motto of moving beyond your crucible, couldn't it? Recognizing that life knocks you down, but it has lessons to teach you, and you'll learn them if you adopt the attitude of, "Okay, I could do this all day, if that's the way it turns out." Is that fair, to sort of summarize the way crucible leadership works?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Really, to get over your crucible, you have to have that attitude of perseverance, that I could do it over.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah. It really is a good perspective to think about when you face crucibles. Can you be someone who looks at crucibles... We say, they didn't happen to you; they happened for you. One way of expressing that in a different manner is to say, "I could do this all day. I know what's on the other side of persevering through my crucible, so I'm going to press in and I'm going to do that."
Steve Rogers life changes when he meets one Dr. Erskine, who's a former German scientist, who's working on developing a super soldier formula for the U.S. government agency, The Strategic Scientific Reserve. He selects Steve over more physically capable and militarily experienced candidates, because as we heard in the clip that started the show, Steve is a weak man. Physically, he is a weak man.
Here's the important point there, though. Erskine believes, because of that, he will value strength, and he will do it with compassion. That, in Erskine's mind, is what makes a super soldier. That's a pretty, again, life applicable lesson that, going back to the Psychology Today article, that we should all aspire to, that in our hearts we all want to aspire to. It's not who we can beat up. It's who we can comfort. It's who we can show compassion to. It's who we can love. That's the nature of "heroism" as defined by Captain America and, I think, in our own hearts.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, those early scenes are particularly helpful in this movie, when you just see this young, slight of build, doesn't seem like a heroic figure, but what Dr. Erskine sees in Steve Rogers is maybe not heroic physical stature, but heroic character. He's somebody that will stand up, as we'll see, to bullies. He's somebody that, because he doesn't have natural strength, he values compassion. He values character. He values doing the right thing.
Later on, we'll see, I think Dr. Erskine says, "Steve, don't change. Don't change in your character. Keep who you are," when he'll get the serum.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
One of the things he says in that clip that I think is really... It's very thought provoking when he says to Steve, "The serum amplifies everything. It makes a bad man, a bad person better; a good man, a good person better." Steve already had character. Did it make him even of greater character? I don't know, maybe. I guess that would be Dr. Erskine's premise, but I think what that says is sometimes you could say strength is found in our weakness. I know, for me, given what I've gone through, losing a $2.25 billion, 150-year-old family media company in Australia, I think it... I'd like to think it gives you a level of compassion, a level of empathy for others.
Sometimes out of weakness, physical weakness or whatever, there can be great strength that comes out of that. See, Dr. Erskine chose Steve Rogers because of the strength of his character. That was a profoundly wise choice that a lot of other people wouldn't have done.
Gary Schneeberger:
No. In fact, the colonel, played by Tommy Lee Jones, is having none of it in the beginning, right? He... "You bring a 90-pound asthmatic into my barracks?" I mean, he's very gruff. He's perfect Tommy Lee Jones there, but he doesn't see it, because he doesn't spend any time, he doesn't get to spend any time with Steve Rogers, aside from what's happening on the training field. He sees a bunch of people who are stronger. That's what he, as a military man, has been taught to believe is what wins wars, physical strength.
Erskine in the doctor who, while he was in Germany, ended up having to give the serum, before it was ready to go, to a very physically strong man, but a bad man, Johann Schmidt, who ends up being the villain Red Skull in the movie. He's seen what happens when strong, morally questionable people get that serum. He doesn't want to see that happen again.
One of the key things, before Steve Rogers receives the serum and becomes the physical embodiment of Captain America, the last thing that Erskine asks him is, "Do you want to kill Nazis?" He wants to get at Steve's motivation. Okay, he wants to go join the war effort, because he's been to five or six different places to fill out a form, been rejected each time. That's against the law. He doesn't seem to care, because he wants to fight so badly, but Erskine says, "Do you want to kill Nazis?"
Steve's response, again, gets to the character of Steve Rogers and then Captain America, because he never loses that character. Steve's response is, "I don't want to kill anybody. I just don't like bullies." He sees Hitler as a bully. He sees the Nazis as bullies, and he wants to stop those bullies in the same way that he wanted to stop that guy who was talking over the film reels in the movie theater. That's the essence of Steve Rogers, and that becomes the essence of Captain America.
Steve is given the serum. He gets the serum, and that gives him strength, speed, and the ability to take and throw a punch. They're exponentially greater than they were before. He captures a Nazi who has infiltrated the experiment and shot Erskine to death. He winds up in the papers as a hero.
Here, then, comes Steve Rogers second big crucible of the film, and his first big crucible as Captain America. The U.S. Government doesn't send him to the front to fight the war. The U.S. Government, and this kind of hurts me that this is played for a joke in the film, the U.S. Government sends him on a PR campaign. Being a PR guy, by profession, I'm like, oh, that's terrible. The PR is like the evil assignment in the movie, but for our purposes, why it's a crucible is he's not... Steve Rogers realizes he's not using all the gifts he's been given, right?
We talk about gifts you've been given, a lot, not usually in this context. They've been injected into you through science, but he's still been given gifts, and he feels like he's not using them. He's longing for what we've called, in a previous series, second act significance, right? That's where he finds himself, as he's on this PR tour selling war bonds.
Warwick Fairfax:
You know, what's fascinating about this is both the Army's maybe misuse of him, arguably, or the... I mean, the Army has an attitude of, look, here's this larger than life figure. We need money to fuel this war, and one of the main ways they did that was selling war bonds to people, so he was serving a good purpose, which is raising money for the war, but he could've said, "Look," maybe he didn't want to kill Nazis, but, "I want to protect America. I could do a lot more at the front." Maybe he grumbles a little bit, but basically he's like, look, if this is where I'm needed in the war effort, and if this can help raise millions of dollars for the war, I'm not going to overly complain."
Like a good soldier, he went ahead and did it, which I think is remarkable in terms of humility. He didn't say, "I'm not doing that. I'm Captain America. How dare you?" No.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
He's like, okay, I may not like it. I understand why they're putting me there. Raising millions of dollars for the war effort is not bad. I get it. War bonds is a big deal, selling them. But yeah, it definitely wasn't using his gifts, wasn't maybe the best place to put him, but in his humility, he went on with it, put on a good show, and did his best to make the best of a bad position, another important lesson.
All of us in life are going to face times in which we're not in the best place for our gifting, but we do our best anyway. Sometimes you don't have a choice in the short run. That showed remarkable character, the way he approached it.
Gary Schneeberger:
You're right. At first, he kind of embraces that role. He's symbolic. You're right. The war bonds are going up. They're raising a lot more money with him, but yet, deep down inside, when he was going to all those places and wanting to sign up for the war, he wasn't thinking of being a PR guy. He was thinking of being a soldier. He doesn't want to raise money; he wants to raise Cain, right? He wants to take it to the enemy, and he gets a little picture when his playing field shifts from all those war bond rallies to the front.
He goes to the front, and he meets, when he does his shtick with the chorus girls singing the star-spangled man song, and all the dances, and the fake Hitler he knocks out, but he does it in front of soldiers who are on the front lines, and they boo him. They mock him. They say, "Bring the girls back."
One of the interesting things about, of all the projectiles that Captain America knocks away with this thing right here, with his shield. Of all the projectiles he knocks away with his shield, the first ones are fruit thrown at him by servicemen, who think he's shirking his duty, because they don't know the whole story. That weighs on him.
The next scene that we see him in, Warwick, is when he is visited by Captain Peggy Carter, who's a British agent, who's working with the Strategic Scientific Reserve. They've kind of taken a shine to one another in a very sweet way, and she says something to him. Listener, I'm going to ask you the same thing I'm going to ask Warwick. Does this sound familiar, what she tells Steve Rogers/Captain America, who's selling war bonds, but not fighting? "You were meant for more than this," she says to him. Pretty familiar subject around these parts, isn't it?
Warwick Fairfax:
It sure is, Gary. I mean, as listeners would know, we just finished an amazing series on Second Act Significance. I'd say, pretty much every guest we had reached that moment of you were meant for more than this, whether it was Robert Miller being a pretty successful lawyer in New York for decades, and it's like, is this all there is? Is this all there is? He had a love of music, and now has a very successful band, Project Grand Slam, doing a mix of Latin/jazz fusion. Every guest we had, had a is this all there is moment.
As we heard last week, I had what I called a cubicle moment, an is this all there is moment, when I was in the mid '90s to early 2000s. I was working in an aviation services company in Maryland doing business marketing analysis, and I was getting good performance reviews, but it's like, I felt like I was, as a person of faith, dishonoring God in the sense that I wasn't using all the gifts that I've been given, so I ended up quitting, got into executive coaching, and from there, through a variety of ways, ended up writing my book, and now Crucible Leadership and Beyond the Crucible.
Many of us have had this is this all there is moment. Am I using all my gifts for a higher purpose? Have I defined it in a way that's helping others? This was really, maybe it wasn't a cubicle moment. Obviously, he was out there getting thrown fruit by servicemen, which had to have... Here he was trying to help America.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
That's got to be absolutely soul crushing, to be mocked by the people on the front lines. I can't think of a worse psychological crucible. I mean, it would've been devastating. Is this what I was given the serum for, to get thrown fruit at and mocked by soldiers, my fellow soldiers? Is this all there is? Surely, there must be a higher purpose. It's a classic moment. It definitely is.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yep, and he finds that higher moment, courtesy of Peggy Carter who, at the camp there on the front lines, or kind of behind the front lines quite a bit. He discovers that a lot of American and British allied servicemen have been taken prisoner by the Nazis, who are winning the war. At this point, they're kind of cleaning up a little bit, because Johann Schmidt, the Red Skull has hijacked... If you're a fan of Marvel, you'll know what the Tesseract is. If you're not a fan of Marvel, let's just say it's sort of cosmic energy. He's been able to leverage this cosmic energy to create weapons that give the Nazis the upper hand.
They've captured all these POWs. He hears about it. The colonel doesn't want to send anybody there, because it's so far behind enemy lines, but Steve Rogers hears that one of those POWs could be his friend, Bucky Barnes, his boyhood chum, who is/was everything that Steve wanted to be, strong and capable and accepted immediately into the military, and women loved him. That's all the things that Steve sort of aspired to be in his heart of hearts.
He thinks that Bucky, even though some say he's dead, he thinks Bucky might be one of those POWs, so he goes, unauthorized, unordered. He goes behind enemy lines himself, and he liberates the camp where these POWs are being held. He gets with him along the way, this wonderful motley crew of British and American soldiers, who kind of go on to become Captain America's Howling Commandos, and some other things that happen in the film and certainly in the comic book universe.
What I thought was so great about that scene, Warwick, is when it ends, when he comes back the hero, the first thing he does... Everybody's applauding him. Crowds are parting, because he's coming back with all these POWs, but the first thing that Steve Rogers/Captain America does is walk up to the colonel, played by Tommy Lee Jones, and say, "I'm here to turn myself in for disciplinary action," because he recognizes, he absolutely knows he left without authorization. That's his character on display. It's another key building block, that character in moving beyond a crucible to lead a life of significance that we talk about all the time. There's something else that happens in that moment, Warwick, when Peggy Carter is talking to the colonel, that also speaks to a key component of what it takes to get beyond your crucible. Talk about that a bit.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a classic scene in that you would think a normal hero comes back and says to the colonel, "Hey, you had no faith in me. Well, take that."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
"Look at all these people cheering me. They may have thrown fruit at me before. Well, now, they're cheering me. I'm the big hero. You're an idiot. You made a mistake, so you'd better have a good assignment for me. Otherwise, Colonel, I'm going to talk to the general, or the head of the war office or, hey, maybe even President Roosevelt. If you're too stupid to listen, people are going to listen to me now." That would've been an approach, an arrogant, hey, I'm the hero, but that's not at all what Steve Rogers did.
He knew that he had gone against his orders. It's like, okay, I did what I did to help people, but I recognize that what I did was against orders. I'm ready for discipline. He was just humble, submitted to authority in the best sense of that word. If he was about glory, his response would have been totally different. It shows everything about his character, and-
Gary Schneeberger:
And it shows everything about how wise Dr. Erskine was in not picking one of those guys that was killing all of the tests, that was killing all the tests on the training field, because that's the kind of thing one of those guys would've said if they came back, and that's not who Steve Rogers is.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. They would've said, "Hey, look at me. I am the champion. Cue the Queen rock group music, We Are the Champions."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
I mean, that would be kind of what you'd be hearing, but while the colonel may not have really judged correctly, Agent Peggy Carter, the British agent working with the group did, because when the colonel asked Agent Peggy Carter, "Well, why did you allow Steve to go on this mission," and she says, "I had faith." She believed in him. She saw what Dr. Erskine saw in Steve Rogers, a man, a person of high character, of selflessness, who's always about the cause and about his fellow soldiers, not about his own glory.
She had faith in who he was, as a person. She saw those really aspects of greatness, greatness of character, in him that Dr. Erskine did. Yeah, it's a wonderful line, "I had faith." She knew who he was, and she knew what he could do.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right. That's one of the things that you talk about in your book and we talk about on the show quite a bit is the importance of faith. The importance of believing that this isn't the end, and whether that comes from us or that comes from others. Other people having faith in us is also a great driver. I mean that is, again, listener, I stress that's one of the reasons why we're talking about these films and these heroes, because they touch on the beats that we've been talking to you about now for more than 120 episodes of this show. That's one of the things that, I think, makes this such a robust, fun discussion.
Warwick Fairfax:
Just before we leave that point, and what you're saying is so true, I think one of the points I want listeners to really consider is you can surround yourself with naysayers, who will say, "You know what? You're a screw-up. You've failed. You've hurt people. You deserve, maybe not to be in prison, but to be in a virtual prison. You deserve to be treated like lepers in the Bible, to be shun, not seen. You're unforgivable, irredeemable. You're a hopeless waste of space."
Now, that's an approach. You can just surround yourself with those people if you want to, and it doesn't mean you don't have to return to the things you've done and make it right, but you want to surround yourself with people, who say, "You know what? I get it. You've made mistakes. Maybe you've made choices that weren't as good as others, but I believe in you. I believe that I would say greatness in you, but greatness in the sense of character, the ability to achieve dreams that maybe others may not see. I believe in who you are and your capacity and what you can do." Surrounding yourself with people who elevate you and appeal to your better angels is a massively important part of achieving your dream to a life of significance.
Surround yourself with people who will say, "You know what? I believe you can do it. I believe you are better and more capable than you ever realize." Those are the kind of people that we want to have in our corner.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and Steve Rogers/Captain America proves capable. He brings down the villain of the peace, the Red Skull. He defeats him, and he does it in a way that, again, stays so true to his character, in the sense that he doesn't... He says to Dr. Erskine back in the beginning when he's asked, "Do you want to kill Nazis?" "No, I don't want to kill Nazis. I just don't like bullies." He doesn't kill.
So many times, heroes in action films, in particular, will take out the bad guy. I'm working on a book right now about the James Bond films, and James Bond pretty much offs every bad guy his path crosses. That's not the way that heroes tend to operate, superheroes tend to operate. They don't kill. Captain America says, "I don't want to kill anybody. I want to simply stop bullies."
What ends up killing the Red Skull is his own megalomania. He's so fascinated and obsessed with this Tesseract, this other worldly source of power, that he grabs it, and it blows up on him, and he dies. That then... It happens on his plane, and that leaves Steve Rogers on the plane, Captain America on the plane, and he's got a choice to make. That choice is... There's a bomb. That plane is set to drop a bomb on New York, so he can live and let that happen, or he can take that plane, and he can crash it in the ocean to save other people's lives.
By this time, listener, I think you know, even if you haven't seen the movie, what Captain America is going to do. Unlike the Red Skull, who can't control the power he wields, Steve Rogers could control the power within him. That leads him to make the ultimate sacrifice in the end, fly the plane with the bomb into the ocean, and there he is presumed dead.
Again, Warwick, that really makes... I mean, the smartest guy in this movie to me is Dr. Erskine, because he gets it with just a few conversations of hearing a few things that Steve Rogers said. This is the kind of man, after putting that serum in Johann Schmidt's arm and what that made bad worse, he saw this physically weak man, who was good in his heart, and he could make that good better, and that's what he did to the end, or to what seemed like the end, when Steve Rogers dropped that plane in the water, even though he had fallen in love with Peggy Carter, she with him, and that ended that, he thought, but there's more to come, as there always is in superhero movies, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It's a great point. He was always about the greater good. It's not about me. Obviously, with everything that was on that plane, yeah, he could have annihilated New York and probably part of the Eastern Seaboard of the U.S., but he was willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good of his country and the men and women that live here.
He was the true hero, in that it's not about me. It's about a higher purpose. I'm just doing my best to help those around me.
There's an interesting moment in one of the later scenes of the movie, when Steve Rogers is struggling with Johann Schmidt, the Red Skull, the head of HYDRA, on the plane. Well, actually, I think it was earlier, come to think of it, in the Alps space, but it's sort of part of this end of the movie.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Johann Schmidt, the head of HYDRA asks Steve Rogers, "Well, what makes you so special?" In other words, Dr. Erskine had been forced to inject Johann Schmidt with the serum, or basically Johann Schmidt took matters into his own hands, but he's thinking, why in the world would Dr. Erskine choose you? Here I am, Mr. Super-Nazi, Aryan super race, Johann Schmidt. Why you? What's so special about you?
Steve Rogers said, in answer to that question, "What's so special about you?" He says, "Nothing. I'm just a kid from Brooklyn."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
It's like he doesn't think of himself as special. Now, the honest answer, which he's too humble to say is, "Well, Dr. Erskine saw the purity of my character," but he's too humble to see that. It just completely nonplussed Johann Schmidt. It's like, "Say what?" It's like, "I'm up against this person, who's potentially going to beat me, and he's nothing special?" I mean that's how humiliated to be beaten by nothing special, if you will. He just, he couldn't process it, but that just shows you his humility and his willingness to just sacrifice himself for the greater good, and not big-note himself.
Gary Schneeberger:
One of the things that I got, as we were preparing this series, is this book called Hollywood Heroes. The subtitle is How Your Favorite Movies Reveal God. It's not all just a spiritual, a Christian tract, if you will. There are some other great insights. One of the great insights it has about Steve Rogers/Captain America and the hero journey he goes on, that's different from a lot of the hero journeys that we'll be talking about, and that we're familiar with in the culture...
The book says this, "Unlike most superheroes, and despite being around almost 80 years in comic books," because Captain America did indeed date back to the '40s in comic books, "Captain America is unique in the sense that, as a character, he is static. He undergoes almost no moral change over the course of his story arc. Rather than a moral journey, we are instead treated to the story of his dedication, bravery, and commitment to his principles, often in the face of overwhelming odds."
That's his story arc. His story arc is going from physically weak to physically strong, but not changing internally, fortitudinally strong, and that is both rare, in many cases, and I think something we all can and should aspire to, especially as we encounter crucibles, because Captain America does not let his crucible define or stop him. Along the way, he becomes... Right? As the movies play out, he becomes the true crucible leader, in our language, of The Avengers, because they all recognize that he may not be the most powerful one. The Hulk is more powerful. Iron Man's smarter, but Captain America becomes the leader because of his innate qualities.
Warwick Fairfax:
Yeah, it's so true, that point you're making, Gary, from the Hollywood Heroes book. In very many cases, in real life, people may start out with a reasonable degree of character, but whether it's Hollywood or success in sports or in business, the more normal arc is they get carried away with the fame. They get surrounded by people who are hangers on and say, "Man, you're amazing. You're brilliant. You're fantastic," and they said, "Yeah, I pretty much am, aren't I?" And the character erodes with the fame and the money and the power, whether it's in politics or Hollywood or wherever.
It's rare that politicians or people in movies or wherever are seen as incorruptible. We talk a lot in Crucible Leadership about Lincoln, who may be termed sort of the incorruptible man. His character, if anything, it was strengthened, but it wasn't changed. He was the same person before he became into office, or even the latter stages when he was greatly respected. It didn't change him, but that's rare. Somebody like Steve Rogers, with all the accolades and his physical strength and the admiration, most people would start saying, "I'm pretty hot stuff, aren't I? I'm pretty amazing."
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
The fact that he wasn't flies in the face of the more normal example in the culture that we live in, so that's something to be understood and modeled. Don't let success, whether it's in your neighborhood, high school, business... The size is irrelevant. Wherever you live, you could be pretty hot stuff, even if it's like a junior on a high school basketball team somewhere.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
Don't let the accolades destroy your character. Remember, be the same person in the sense of the good part of you, after you have succeeded. Steve Rogers is just an incredible example of that, which is, unfortunately, ultra-rare in our society today. Most people are corrupted by success, unfortunately.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yep, yep. There's a great scene at the end when it's VE day, Victory over Europe day, in the war, and there's a scene that shows these young kids playing in the street. They're all exultant because America's one the war, and they show this young boy. He's got a metal garbage can lid in his hand, and he's painted it up like Captain America's shield. He's painted up that garbage can lid like Captain America's shield, and he's playing Captain America with his friends.
We talk all the time here at Beyond the Crucible about the importance of leaving a legacy, something that you can be proud of, something that those who inherit that legacy can be proud of. Many times, that's your family. Here, what Captain America's done is left a legacy that his country can be proud of, that the next generation of his country can be proud of, and that is an absolutely key outcome, is it not, that we often discuss as the fruit of living a life of significance?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, at the time, as the war ends in Europe, Victory in Europe, somewhere around May 1945, give or take, everybody assumes that Captain America is dead. Now, maybe he's not, but nobody knows that at the time, and so whether it's his friends, like the colonel, Peggy Carter, Bucky Barnes, I mean, just people that really love him and respect and admire him, they think of him as somebody that's left a legacy of giving his all to his country, to the Allies, at least in the movie, of helping to defeat Nazi Germany, and living a life of character.
It was never about him, but was standing up to bullies. It's a life of service. It was a life of humility. That's exactly the kind of thing that you want young people emulating and respecting. That's the legacy, as of the 1940s, that he had left. I mean, maybe we won't all be Captain America, obviously, but whatever level and whatever area, wouldn't you want that to be your legacy? That you're a man or woman that are respected for your character, how you lived your life, a life of service caring for others. Isn't that how we all want to be seen and respected after we've gone? I mean, to me, the answer is absolutely.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yeah, and as we've said, as you've hinted again there, Captain America does not die. He crashes the plane in the water, and as is wonderful about the comic book world, you can have kind of miraculous things happen. He's frozen in suspended animation in the plane that he crashes in, and the U.S. Government pulls him out in the 2010s, and he hasn't aged. He's alive.
What's interesting about that is he emerges as a man out of his own time, but still rooted in his timeless principles. We see that in Captain America in all the films that follow, the two sequels to his movie, and then the four Avengers films. He spends... His belief, his faith in Bucky Barnes, his pal, exists, even though Bucky had been captured by the Nazis, had been programmed to become an assassin for HYDRA, had done some terrible things. The U.S. Government wanted to wipe him out, and Captain America, again, having faith and belief in his friend, wouldn't go along with that, defied some of his orders, because he believed in his friend. He was a loyal friend, who could see in the heart of the man who had been reprogrammed by the bad guys.
That, in the end, as you pointed out, as we were talking about this beforehand, that faith ends up being well-founded, doesn't it, in Bucky Barnes? He's not the Winter Soldier. Even though he's been programmed to be the Winter Soldier assassin for HYDRA, at the end of The Avengers movie arc, he's somebody. He's back to being Bucky Barnes, right?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. You know, as you said, Bucky Barnes was brainwashed by the Nazis and HYDRA, but Steve Rogers wouldn't give up on his friend. He felt like somewhere in there, beneath the programming, there was the good Bucky Barnes, his buddy growing up. He fought for that and eventually was able to redeem him, which is amazing.
In those latter movies, beginning with the movie that came after the first Captain America, well, I guess, at the end of that movie, come to think of it, he goes through another crucible. It's like, gosh, I've lost everybody I know. It's now 2010s.
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
At that point, he doesn't have a clue where his beloved Peggy Carter is, and obvious, eventually, that will be revealed, but at the time he didn't know. Everybody that he'd known is probably dead or close to it, but it's like, okay. That's got to be a devastating crucible, to lose 70 years of your life, whatever it was at the time, but it's like, okay, this is pretty awful, but here I am. How can I serve my country? How can I serve the planet? What's the next mission? It's never about him. It's always about leaving a legacy, even when he loses many decades of his life, and for all he knows, at the time, his beloved Peggy Carter.
It was always about a life of service. It was never about him. Whatever crucible came, even a crucible of time, as you say, he was moored in his principles, and he always wanted to serve his country and serve the world. That was always, always him, and this is in a, how can I put this, character of humility. It's just incredible.
Gary Schneeberger:
I love that you mentioned his beloved Peggy Carter, because she does show up in some of the sequels. She's much older, obviously, because she's lived through the passage of time. She's aged, where he hasn't, and he visits her in the hospital in one movie, where she's ill, but he never loses that torch he has for her.
In the final Avengers movie, Avengers: Endgame, which involved some time travel, all the different Avengers have to go back in different places of time to retrieve these time stones, like the Tesseract that the villain Thanos has used to wipe out half of mankind. They have to go back and get them, so they can defeat Thanos.
Captain America goes back, and he gets one of the stones. They get all the stones regathered, and Iron Man saves the day, loses his life in the process. That's not a spoiler. The movie's been out for a couple years, but at the end of the day, when that's done, earth has been saved, each of the Avengers has a role to play, to go back to the time where the time stone they have came from, to go put it back in place.
Captain America volunteers to go put the stone that he had back in place. There's a scene at the end of that movie, where the other Avengers are waiting for him to come back through the portal. It should only take seconds, what looks like it takes years. What takes years on the inside of the time travel, on the outside takes seconds.
They're waiting for him, and he doesn't come back, and they don't know why he doesn't come back. The audience finds out first why he doesn't come back. There's a scene that's cut to a house. The camera goes through a window, and there, inside the house, is Steve Rogers dancing with a young Peggy Carter. That dance that they talked about in the first Captain America movie that we've been talking about, that first dance that they never got to take, that she weepingly says, "I'll take a..." He says he'll take a rain check, and she says, "Yes, I'll meet you next week," and she knows it's not going to happen.
Captain America chose, rather than come back and continue to serve, he felt like he'd lived his life of significance. He'd given all he could to his country and to the world, and now it was his time to enjoy a different slice of a life of significance, and that was life with Peggy Carter, so he stayed in the 1940s. He married Peggy Carter, and that was the way that he lived out his life, because of what time travel allowed.
It was a very beautiful ending to this story, and it speaks to what we've been talking about. He felt called to serve. He lived a life on purpose, dedicated to serving others, and now that act of significance, that life of significance, now included love, marriage, and that which he had denied himself so long while pursuing his heroic calling. It was really a beautiful way to end the story arc of Captain America, I thought.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. It was never about being in the limelight. It was never about, hey, I'm part of S.H.I.E.L.D., and I'm part of all these incredible things that are going on in the present day, and hey, let's just keep on with the mission, and oh well. It's like, well, I've served my country. I've served the planet, and he just felt like the season is changing, and maybe... We don't really know what happened in the alternate universe, when he goes back to the '40s and what happened from the '40s on. That movie hasn't been made after Avengers: Endgame, but let's assume he lived a more quiet life. We don't know, but it's possible. Maybe it's teased a bit there.
It wasn't about the size of the impact. It was about, where am I called to now, and to have the opportunity to be around the love of your life, maybe have kids and a family. It was just never about the size of the impact. It was just try to be of value wherever that was, be it of big note or of small note. It was never about him. It was just try to serve a greater purpose and be a good friend, whether it be to... and husband to Peggy Carter, or a good friend to Bucky Barnes. It was always about just sticking to who he was before he had the serum. Really, it's a great end of the arc of his story.
Gary Schneeberger:
Absolutely, and we go back to what we started talking about early on, his view, carried throughout the movies, that I could do this all day. It's really... I didn't think about this until right now, as you were describing life with Peggy Carter. He's able to find, being with Peggy is something else he could do all day, and he gets the chance to do that, live many years with her, when he goes back to the '40s. That's just a beautiful wrap to his story and to the arc of how he dealt with crucibles and how he found a life of significance. It really is.
He's, I think, the perfect, the perfect hero for us to discuss, not just because yesterday, when listeners are hearing this, yesterday was the Fourth of July, Independence Day in America, right? It's not just because, just 24 hours ago, you saw fireworks and you had a cookout. It's because the story really does have application to how we can live lives of significance, and that, I think, makes it both entertaining, beautiful in its own superheroic way, and also quite meaningful.
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. I mean, well said. It's a great character, a great movie to launch this series with, a selfless life, whose focus is always on others, not liking bullies, defeating Johann Schmidt and HYDRA, being loyal to his friends, Peggy Carter and Bucky Barnes. I mean, he's just a great role model of... He's a bit like they talk about Lincoln. Lincoln's greatness was not so much in defeating the South in the Civil War. Historians have said Lincoln's greatness was in his character.
Well, I think in a similar way, actually, Steve Rogers' greatness, Captain America's greatness, wasn't so much in the achievements or his physical strength. Steve Rogers' greatness was in his character. In that sense, you could almost say he's an Abraham Lincoln archetype in some way.
Gary Schneeberger:
Very well said, and a very good place for us to... I don't want to say land the plane, given some of the arcs of our, the beats of our conversation here. It's a good place to throw the shield in and say, "We're done."
There's one thing I want listeners to ponder, again in this book, Hollywood Heroes. They have reflection questions, like you do every time on your blog, Warwick. They have reflection questions for how you can think about the story of Captain America, and one of them really struck me as something that would be good for people to think about, and that's this: "Captain America is other focused. His moral compass compels him to help others. Who do you know who tends to be other focused, and what do they do that helps them maintain that focus?"
Another question that's also very good about that, says this: "Can you think of someone in your life who makes you better, the way that Captain America made other people better? Have you told them?" This idea that... Who's other focused? Who's someone who inspires you in that way? What do they do that helps them maintain that focus? How might you learn from them? And then, is there somebody who makes you better, who does that for you? Have you told them, and if you haven't, what are you waiting for? Both great questions to ponder as we wrap here, aren't they?
Warwick Fairfax:
Absolutely. Yep, it's... Thinking of your moral compass, make sure that you stay true to your fundamental beliefs. Don't let the world erode you. I mean, it's funny. I haven't mentioned this that often, but when I was a teenager, I had this thought in my mind. I never wanted to become world weary, because I had this sense that the world, left to its own devices, can erode your character, erode your optimism, faith in others, and I never wanted to be cynical. I would say, by the grace of God, I'm not cynical. I am realistic, but I'm not cynical.
You want to stay true to your moral compass, and yeah, think of people that have made you better. Yeah, I'm a great believer in encouragement. If there's somebody that's a role model, maybe it's your mom, dad, teacher, maybe it's somebody at work, think of why you admire them, and absolutely, as Gary, as you just said, tell them. Thank them, and tell them why. I always believe, if you're going to give a thank you, be specific, you know?
Gary Schneeberger:
Right.
Warwick Fairfax:
You are, in a lot of ways, a hero or somebody I admire because you did A, B, and C, whether it was their kindness, their compassion, their integrity, whatever it is, absolutely. It will bless them and encourage them and maybe reinforce them to keep going, because even our heroes can sometimes have days when they're a little tired.
Gary Schneeberger:
Yep. Well, with that, we're going to declare that Red Skull is defeated, and so is Thanos, and we're going to move on. Here's how we're going to do this, listener. We're not going to give you the full rundown of everybody we're going to talk to. We know who the... I mean, talk to. Yes, we're going to talk to... Our interview with Captain America was just supposed to have... No, everyone that we're going to talk about, all of the stories we're going to explore, we're not going to lay those out in advance, except at the end of each episode.
I will tell you now that next week, Warwick and I will talk about Batman and the lessons we can learn about overcoming crucibles and leading a life of significance from Batman. The primary, and there's a lot of iterations of Batman, as you know. The primary iteration that we're going to talk about is the 1989 Michael Keaton movie, just called Batman. We'll bring in some of the other stuff, but the primary movie we're going to talk about is that movie with Michael Keaton from 1989.
If you want to be up on the conversation, as Warwick and I go through it, you've got the opportunity to take a look at that movie over the next week, and listen in to our conversation as we get there. Until the next time we are together and have that conversation, remember that we know that crucible experiences are difficult. We know that it takes heroic efforts to move beyond them. You have to must that ability, that desire, that integrity to do this all day sometimes, when you feel like you can't go on. You have to find a way to do this all day, because the reward is you can learn lessons from your crucible that will pay dividends down the road, and that road will lead you, as you learn those lessons and apply them to your life, to exactly the place that Steve Rogers/Captain America found himself, not only when he was saving the world but also when he was spending eternity, the rest of his life, with Peggy Carter, and that is to a life of significance.
About a decade ago, depression reared its ugly head into my life…
Life, post-divorce, was mentally grueling.
The pain of losing love, marriage, and an identity dragged me down a rabbit hole; it temporarily stole my energy and happiness then trapped me in a web of gloom.
I believed the sun was shining on everyone else except me… Night after night, sadness brought me to my knees, until loneliness swallowed me whole. Joy was not a friend and the worst part? I had no idea how to get those things back.
According to the World Health Organization, close to 300 million people in the world suffer from depression.
If you or someone you know has suffered from it, you know the feeling of anguish that comes with this illness… Sadness, frustration, anxiety, and isolation overwhelm the mind to the point of despair; emotional weight that feels like a thousand boulders, pressing against your spirit. Darkness rests on the souls of its victims for days, weeks, months, or years. Living in a place where there is no light makes it hard to breathe.
Life-changing events can be a time to rejoice.
Marriage, having a baby, or making a move that you have planned is a dream come true. However, a loss will shake the foundation that grounds you. It makes you question everything you believe in – including yourself. Divorce, abrupt unemployment, and death can be devastating.
Sometimes, the agony will instill doubt in our ability to keep going, but the beauty of the human spirit is that it shines brightest when the power of resilience comes through. We can rise from the murkiest waters to become the person we’re meant to be, as I learned, years ago.
After my separation of marriage became official, hopelessness took over.
Loneliness followed every corner of my mind. As I mourned my old life, I felt like a piece of me died, each day. Failure, disappointment, and dreams vanished all at once. The things that I used to take pleasure in, became mundane. I’d look in the mirror and see the bony figure standing before me…
I didn’t like the person I’d see in the mirror looking back at me.
The outside perception was that I was OK. But the truth… was that I was drowning in sorrow.
Sometimes, the suffering drove me to question my existence. This woman wanted to end it all, stop the torment. I was at my worst, but sometimes it only takes one instant to be reminded of what is really important in life…
The skies were blue and the sun was shining; a picturesque summer day that brought smiles to all those in its rays. Despite the radiant Saturday, blackout curtains dressed my room and laying in bed all day was the mood.
My young child had been quietly playing until about 2:00pm then she walked into my bedroom. I heard a faint little voice, “Mommy, please wake up… Open the curtains… I am hungry”. It felt like my spirit returned to my body, forcing me to wake up. The following morning, I called a therapist for help with my depression and it changed everything for the better.
My depressive episode was a pivotal point in my evolution.
Overcoming it made me stronger. It also helped to understand that in my despair, I was only thinking about myself in a single frame, but life is about more, it’s about a collection of them. Everything we go through physically, mentally, and spiritually belongs to the human experience and has purpose. We’ve all had low points during this journey, but these moments don’t have to define us.
The biggest mistake is thinking that we don’t have any power to change our circumstances when things go wrong. But if you can see the teachable moments in the challenges that arise, you can find the growth that’s meant to happen to help you get closer to becoming your highest self.
Reflection
If you’re going through a difficult or even devastating time right now, what aspects of your crucible might offer opportunities for you to rejoice?
Think back to a crucible you have moved beyond. Can you retrace the steps you went through to get where you are today? How can you use that information to help you when failure or setback strikes again?
How do you envision your “highest self?” What one small step can you take today to get you closer to that reality.
More About Yvette…
As the Founder and Author behind Awakened-Woman, a digital platform designed to inspire and invigorate females, author Yvette Bodden writes with endless empathy. In just two years, AW has amassed tens of thousands of followers, thanks to a combined 500+ articles centered around celebrity profiles, relationships, love, abuse, motherhood, and Latino culture, infused with a signature blend of her pragmatism and compassion. In 2021, she was named one of the “Bella Bosses We Admire” by Bella Magazine. You can learn more at www.awakened-woman.com
